# Sorry you don't give enough to Volunteer at this Church



## BlkOnyx488 (Feb 9, 2008)

3 Weeks ago my pastor announced that the church was about to purchase a very expensive piece of property.

2 weeks ago he began re-teaching on tithing

last week he announced that if you were a part of the Helps Ministry he was going to check your tithing record and if you were not tithing consistantly or enough, you could no longer be a part of the Helps Ministry.

earlier this week My Husband got an email directing all those who are NOT consistant tithers to notify one of the pastors in the church not the head pastor.


So I want to know how you ladies feel about this.  Should you be allowed to volunteer at your church if you are not a strong consistant tither?

For the record we are consistant tithers.

thanks

Ps.  apparently I have forgotten how to spell "consistant" LOL


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## DayStar (Feb 9, 2008)

yes. Everyone has hard times...IMHO those are red flags when you are trying to put people like that on blast. Volunteering is a free service, they should be thankful.


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## cheetarah1980 (Feb 9, 2008)

I really hate this saying, but I think it's apt for this thread.  What would Jesus do?


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## BlkOnyx488 (Feb 9, 2008)

cheetarah1980 said:


> I really hate this saying, but I think it's apt for this thread.  What would Jesus do?



Good question, in the bible Jesus was more concerned with your heart when you gave not how much.


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## cheetarah1980 (Feb 9, 2008)

BlkOnyx488 said:


> Good question, in the bible Jesus was more concerned with your heart when you gave not how much.


 
True...however, giving and volunteering are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. One has nothing to do with other. I don't know a single person who is NOT lacking in at least one area of their walk. To single out that one area as a reason why someone shouldn't strengthen another aspect of Christian living is a shammockery.


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## PaperClip (Feb 9, 2008)

So what do you really want to get out of this thread convo? A bunch of "that ain't right" co-signage or a WWJD-led path to resolution?

The Bible says "in all thy getting, get understanding". Apparently there's some discrepancy or misunderstanding on what "consistent" means, for one. For two, what's the point of the conversation with one of the associate pastors? I mean, it's really kind of funny to have to call in and report "I am not a consistent tither".... according to what standard? According to what schedule? People have different pay/salary schedules. Everyone doesn't get a bi-weekly check.

We need to stop with this church victim mentality. Cry loud and spare not...esp. when you got the word to back you up.

And I'm not saying something that somebody told me. I'm talking from what I KNOW PERSONALLY... as recent as less than 24 hours ago. I had to stand up and I did (with the grace and mercy of the Lord).


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## BlkOnyx488 (Feb 9, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> *So what do you really want to get out of this thread convo? *A bunch of "that ain't right" co-signage or a WWJD-led path to resolution?
> 
> The Bible says "in all thy getting, get understanding". Apparently there's some discrepancy or misunderstanding on what "consistent" means, for one. For two, what's the point of the conversation with one of the associate pastors? I mean, it's really kind of funny to have to call in and report "I am not a consistent tither".... according to what standard? According to what schedule? People have different pay/salary schedules. Everyone doesn't get a bi-weekly check.
> 
> ...


Honestly, I want to know if I am missing the point.  I know that at this particular church the economic status of the members various greatly from the extremely wealthy to the Middle income to the poor.  
I believe in tithing, I believe in supporting my Church. I also believe that you can add your supply by volunteering so I am sincerely torn in deciding if what my pastor has announced is something that I personally can stand by
or is this a "deal breaker" for me? 

two scriptures keep popping into my head
"there is sin in the camp"  which means when one falters we all fail. 

the other is 
Jesus was watching to see heart in which the people gave, not how much they gave.

I have been attending this church for almost 10 years, however this situation has me considering finding a new church.  
That's how serious it is to me.

So I am asking the Christians that understand tithing, is this something you would agree with if your pastor said this in your church.


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## PaperClip (Feb 9, 2008)

BlkOnyx488 said:


> Honestly, I want to know if I am missing the point. I know that at this particular church the economic status of the members various greatly from the extremely wealthy to the Middle income to the poor.
> I believe in tithing, I believe in supporting my Church. I also believe that you can add your supply by volunteering so I am sincerely torn in deciding if what my pastor has announced is something that I personally can stand by
> or is this a "deal breaker" for me?
> 
> ...


 
Ahh... good.... now we're getting somewhere....

I've heard this before. And I wasn't phased AT ALL by it because:
1) I am a tither

2) I can't force anyone to receive my volunteerism. And unless the Lord and/or the pastor tells you to stop doing your volunteer service, keep on in Jesus' Name. And even if the pastor does remove you from the position, you still have to obey because he's the pastor of that church and the Lord honors the structure of authority. And even if it was done wrong, the Lord knows how to fix it. Again, I've been there FIRST-HAND.

3) I'm responsible for MY OBEDIENCE and ACTIONS; I'm not responsible for anyone else. So it's not about you being so overwhelmed with being a martyr for the "various economic statuses" that may exist at your church and how insensitive this situation may be for certain folks....

4) I perceive the level of volunteering noted here are the positions with a"title" and/or "status". Not the volunteering that includes cleaning the toilets, vacuuming the carpets, washing the dishes...you know the "unseen, unglorified" tasks that sincerely indicate one's commitment to servanthood. That's how I learned servanthood AND LEADERSHIP at my church. You want to be a minister? You got a call on your life? To minister to millions? Go on ahead and hit them toilets! LOL! 

Only you know if this situation is a deal breaker. But before you break the deal, seek the Lord about what to do and have a conversation with the associate pastor first (per the email directive), and if there's no resolution there, then go to the senior pastor.


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## motherx2esq (Feb 9, 2008)

BlkOnyx488 said:


> 3 Weeks ago my pastor announced that the church was about to purchase a very expensive piece of property.
> 
> 2 weeks ago he began re-teaching on tithing
> 
> ...



Please excuse my ignorance but is not volunteering tithing as well?  I am serious.  I was always taught that tithing is not just money but also time, donation and so on.  If I am wrong please someone let me know.


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## Shimmie (Feb 9, 2008)

motherx2esq said:


> Please excuse my ignorance but is not volunteering tithing as well? I am serious. I was always taught that tithing is not just money but also time, donation and so on. If I am wrong please someone let me know.


I believe that if this is all someone has to 'offer', that God will honor it.  Take a homeless person or a teenager or a widow, or someone who has absolutely nothing, yet they offer themselves.   God will honor this, for this person is giving from their heart.

Here's the thing regarding tithing.  Some persons think that they are 'entitled' to walk into a Church and not give up anything at all, neither service or money, and yet they truly have it to give.   This is why the widow and the two mites, stands out so astondingly.  She gave 'all' that she had, while the others who did have much, much more, gave little in comparison.   And Jesus chose to honor her gift above all the others. 

If one has money to give and yet they feel that they will just volunteer instead, to keep the money selfishly; then it's no different than the example of Cain and Abel.   Abel gave what was required of him, Cain instead chose to give what he felt God was worth (far less) and hence his offering was denied. For God knew the selfishness that ruled in Cain's heart. 

*Now as for the Pastor mentioned in this thread, * 

I personally think that he is wrong.  It seems more like he is 'outting' those who do not tithe, in order to 'mark' them or 'shame' them. Not a good way to to treat people.  

I agree with RR's post  for how can one determine one's salary schedule?  In the Military many are paid on the 1st and the 15th of the month.  Some Military families receive their money on a monthly basis.  What about those who only work Temp positions and their pay schedule is only when they work.  It takes weeks for some to receive their money due to the company's processing procedure.   The list goes on...

Pastors know full well, that if people want to tithe they will; if they don't want to tithe, they won't.  It's up to the Pastor to continue to teach God's word; walk in the 'call' that God has on his/her life and allow God to deal with them.  Outting them just makes him look like a great big bully and it's not right..  

Shame on him!  He knows that God will use others to fill in the gap who will reap the extra blessings.


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## BlkOnyx488 (Feb 10, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Ahh... good.... now we're getting somewhere....
> 
> I've heard this before. And I wasn't phased AT ALL by it because:
> 1) I am a tither
> ...



Thanks I appreciate your perspective on this.  I have been discussing this thread with my husband.  He says his response is not an emotional one.  He just simply doesn't feel that the Pastor is leading him into direction he wants to go.  And yes tithing is important, but wanting dismiss someone based oh how much they give is just not something he could ever see himself doing.


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## georgeinfo (Feb 10, 2008)

This is just another form of manipulation to try to force people to tithe.  It is no different from those religious leaders who use the Malachi verses to threaten believers into tithing.  The prophet Malachi was not talking to Christians.  He was speaking to the nation of Israel and specifically to the priests who were not doing as God had commanded.

Giving to God means to support those in need like the poor, the fatherless, and the widows.  It does NOT mean supporting various church institutions, building programs, etc.  You go ahead and bless your neighbor that needs help.  That is the real idea behind 'giving to God'.

George


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## BlkOnyx488 (Feb 10, 2008)

georgeinfo said:


> This is just another form of manipulation to try to force people to tithe. It is no different from those religious leaders who use the Malachi verses to threaten believers into tithing. The prophet Malachi was not talking to Christians. He was speaking to the nation of Israel and specifically to the priests who were not doing as God had commanded.
> 
> Giving to God means to support those in need like the poor, the fatherless, and the widows. It does NOT mean supporting various church institutions, building programs, etc. You go ahead and bless your neighbor that needs help. That is the real idea behind 'giving to God'.
> 
> George


 
Welcome George I can see from your other post you like to shake things up.  Look forward to reading your future post


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## Southernbella. (Feb 10, 2008)

Hmmm...I think I see what you're saying, BlkOnyx.

You are going to have to pray hard about this one. If I understand you right, you are concerned about the future and whether your church and pastor are going in the right direction.

Unfortunately, you are right to be concerned. I've seen things like this happen a lot. The pastor will say the Lord told him to move into a bigger, more expensive building, then he will suddenly start to talk about tithes and offerings constantly and forcefully and basicall browbeat the members into paying for the new building.

This may not happen in your church, and I hope and pray it doesn't. A lot of trouble comes when the word isn't really from God. I think it's human nature to want to be bigger and better, but if God isn't really giving the directive, then a lot of issues can arise.

All you and your dh can do is pray and ask God to show you the truth, and decide accordingly.


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## BlkOnyx488 (Feb 10, 2008)

lauren450 said:


> Hmmm...I think I see what you're saying, BlkOnyx.
> 
> You are going to have to pray hard about this one. If I understand you right, you are concerned about the future and whether your church and pastor are going in the right direction.
> 
> ...


 
I have been giving this a lot of prayer and meditation, and the message I received is, when God places a vision upon your life then it will come to pass because it's meant to be not because you figured out a way to force it.

I.E when God told abraham his seed would out number the grains of sand and the stars in the sky, and he and Sara interpreted that as if he was suppose to make a baby with a concubine.  Though I am sure ole Abram had a good time "attempting" to fullfill God's prophecy, it was not at all what God intended.  His seed was to grow from his wife.

Sorry not trying to give a church lesson it's just that since I posted this message, this is one of the revelations that has come to me as I am processing what to do.


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## Southernbella. (Feb 10, 2008)

BlkOnyx488 said:


> I have been giving this a lot of prayer and meditation, and the message I received is, when God places a vision upon your life then it will come to pass because it's meant to be not because you figured out a way to force it.
> 
> I.E when God told abraham his seed would out number the grains of sand and the stars in the sky, and he and Sara interpreted that as if he was suppose to make a baby with a concubine. Though I am sure ole Abram had a good time "attempting" to fullfill God's prophecy, it was not at all what God intended. His seed was to grow from his wife.
> 
> Sorry not trying to give a church lesson it's just that since I posted this message, this is one of the revelations that has come to me as I am processing what to do.


 
I appreciate the lesson! I struggle with that in my own life sometimes. 

I'm glad you were able to get an answer.


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## GodsPromises (Feb 10, 2008)

I preached on this very topic last month, Sara and Abram taking matters into their own hands



BlkOnyx488 said:


> I have been giving this a lot of prayer and meditation, and the message I received is, when God places a vision upon your life then it will come to pass because it's meant to be not because you figured out a way to force it.
> 
> I.E when God told abraham his seed would out number the grains of sand and the stars in the sky, and he and Sara interpreted that as if he was suppose to make a baby with a concubine.  Though I am sure ole Abram had a good time "attempting" to fullfill God's prophecy, it was not at all what God intended.  His seed was to grow from his wife.
> 
> Sorry not trying to give a church lesson it's just that since I posted this message, this is one of the revelations that has come to me as I am processing what to do.


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## missty1029 (Feb 10, 2008)

I dont have any advice, but my pastor has done the same thing.  He states people should not be in leadership positions if they cannot be faithful tithers.  He asked the other day those on the choir to put on a piece of paper if they pay tithes or not and give it to him. He didnt want names just to know I guess how many pay.  They also single out people.  They say we need a $50 offereing from all the members.  All those who have $50 stand up.  When those people stand p he may say these are all the people who are blessed.   I hate it.  Hate it. Hate it.  Why does it have to be that way?  I really enjoy my church other then this whole money thing.  I am part of my singles minsitry and I do what I can in offerring  and tithes.  If he wants to out me then so be it God knows whats in my heart. 

I hope you find your answer because I sure need one same way.


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## Cleve_gryl (Feb 10, 2008)

At my church, they will periodically check tithe records for ministry servants to see if we are regular tithers...not how much we give.  Since no one knows how much any of us make a year, it would be pointless to look at dollar amounts.  I agree that servants/leaders should be in good standing with the church.  You are looked upon as "staff members" although you are unpaid staff.


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## PaperClip (Feb 10, 2008)

Cleve_gryl said:


> At my church, they will periodically check tithe records for ministry servants to see if we are regular tithers...not how much we give. Since no one knows how much any of us make a year, it would be pointless to look at dollar amounts. I agree that servants/leaders should be in good standing with the church. You are looked upon as "staff members" although you are unpaid staff.


 
This post provokes a point to make here: like it's said, it's not to check HOW MUCH one is tithing, but the CONSISTENCY in it.... Like the Bible says, as you are faithful over a few things, the Lord will make you faithful over many. And if one is in ANY KIND of LEADERSHIP OR SERVICE in the church, CONSISTENCY matters. That's if you're a choir member, janitor, intercessor, secretary, praise leader, OR PASTOR, CONSISTENCY matters. Your COMMITMENT matters. Your WORSHIP matters. And what way to know if a person is reflecting these things is through their GIVING.... And in a sense, it IS the pastor's business as the Bible says to know them that labor among you and as the pastor, he has to give an account to the Lord for how he watched over the flock and appointed people in positions and all that....

ETA: at my church, my pastor is the highest tither (highest meaning he gives more in tithes and offerings than anybody else there). He encourages folk that if they have any questions about his giving record, you are welcome to check it. He says it with great boldness and conviction. Can't beat that with a stick.

And since I'm here (versus starting an entire new post), I'd like to admonish us to be mindful with regard to "God's vision", the vision that the Lord has given the pastor, a vision for our personal lives, and how all of this may/should work together....

I've heard it said this way: should the Lord give you your own church, then you can run it like you want to....but as far as "this" house, the Lord has given the vision of that house to the pastors set there (prayerfully set by the LORD). It's one thing to have questions or have a concern about something and if so, I hope there is a relationship to where a person can go talk to the pastor or other designated leader who is mature and sober-minded.


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## OhmyKimB (Feb 10, 2008)

BlkOnyx488 said:


> 3 Weeks ago my pastor announced that the church was about to purchase a very expensive piece of property.
> 
> 2 weeks ago he began re-teaching on tithing
> 
> ...


 


I think that is crazy.  It would be better to sit down with each and speak with them personally. But to tell someone that despite whatever issues you have with God and giving your 10%...we're going to take it to a human level and I'll tell you want you can and cannot do within this church because I don't like what your doing....Let God handle the people that don't do. Not man


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## SmartyPants (Feb 10, 2008)

See...  this is completely foreign to me!  I'm Catholic and our vision of "tithes" (we don't call it that) involves the giving of time, talent, and treasure.  You give where you are most able to give.  

*Example:* I am living at home and not working right now because I quit my job to move home and help my mother take care of my terminally ill father.  As a college professor, I can't just walk into a college in the middle of a semester or academic year and say hire me.  I have to go through the process that will likely see me out of work in my field until August.  So, no, I generally don't put any money in church (treasure).  However, I do have a master's degree and am in the process of completing the dissertation for the PhD.  So, when the church needed someone to update the church census, rather than have the curch pay someone $50 to $100 an hour to do it, I volunteered my professional services free of charge (time).  When the church needed someone analyze the data and write up the report from the required Archdiocesan survey, I once again volunteered my professional services (time).  I recently also rejoined the lectors ministry that I was a part of before I moved out of state (talent).    By your pastor's standards, I would be ineligible to help the church in other capacities because I am not capable of giving treasure at this time.  This is completely un-Christian to me and would result in my looking for another church home!


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## firecracker (Feb 11, 2008)

motherx2esq said:


> Please excuse my ignorance but is not volunteering tithing as well? I am serious. *I was always taught that tithing is not just money but also time, donation and so on.* If I am wrong please someone let me know.


 To the bolded no sweetie your not wrong.  That pastor is for trying to jack folk up and put them on blast.


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## cheetarah1980 (Feb 11, 2008)

BlkOnyx488 said:


> I have been giving this a lot of prayer and meditation, and the message I received is, when God places a vision upon your life then it will come to pass because it's meant to be not because you figured out a way to force it.
> 
> I.E when God told abraham his seed would out number the grains of sand and the stars in the sky, and he and Sara interpreted that as if he was suppose to make a baby with a concubine. Though I am sure ole Abram had a good time "attempting" to fullfill God's prophecy, it was not at all what God intended. His seed was to grow from his wife.
> 
> Sorry not trying to give a church lesson it's just that since I posted this message, this is one of the revelations that has come to me as I am processing what to do.


 
Abram and Sara really do get a bad rap for the whole Hagar situation.  We really can't examine that scripture from our 20th/21st century perspectives.  Remember, God initially only told Abram that his head servant wouldn't be his heir and that he would have his own child.  He initially did not say that the child would come from Sara.  He only said that there would be a child.  The intention was for Hagar to give birth to a child _for_ Sara since she was barren.  In that society in that time it was the modern version of surrogacy (having someone carry your child for you because you cannot).  However, since there were no petri dishes and artifical insemination, the other woman would of course be the biological mother and the man and woman had to do the do in order to create the child.  It was when Hagar got too big for her britches that the plan unraveled and Ishmael became Hagar's son, not Sara's.
Only after Ishmael was born did the angel of the LORD tell Abram (now Abraham), that Sara (now Sarah) would give him a child.

I know that's totally off topic, but it's not fair to use that scripture to show how Abram and Sara went off on their own and took matters into their own hands.


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## BlkOnyx488 (Feb 11, 2008)

cheetarah1980 said:


> Abram and Sara really do get a bad rap for the whole Hagar situation.  We really can't examine that scripture from our 20th/21st century perspectives.  Remember, God initially only told Abram that his head servant wouldn't be his heir and that he would have his own child.  He initially did not say that the child would come from Sara.  He only said that there would be a child.  The intention was for Hagar to give birth to a child _for_ Sara since she was barren.  In that society in that time it was the modern version of surrogacy (having someone carry your child for you because you cannot).  However, since there were no petri dishes and artifical insemination, the other woman would of course be the biological mother and the man and woman had to do the do in order to create the child.  It was when Hagar got too big for her britches that the plan unraveled and Ishmael became Hagar's son, not Sara's.
> Only after Ishmael was born did the angel of the LORD tell Abram (now Abraham), that Sara (now Sarah) would give him a child.
> 
> I know that's totally off topic, *but it's not fair to use that scripture to show how Abram and Sara went off on their own and took matters into their own hands.*



LOL, I was not trying to say Abram was bad for what he and his wife both agreed to do.  I was attempting to point out that what God has for you will come to pass.  I know the story of Abram it's just when I am posting I try to get my point across in Brief manner so that my post are not super long.
I post here because I believe there are a lot of intelligent woman on LHCF that I can benefit from.  So I left out somethings under the assumption that most of us know the true story of Abram.  So I apologize to Abram and ALL his decendants (sp),  if I came across as pointing a finger of shame.


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## cheetarah1980 (Feb 11, 2008)

BlkOnyx488 said:


> LOL, I was not trying to say Abram was bad for what he and his wife both agreed to do. I was attempting to point out that what God has for you will come to pass. I know the story of Abram it's just when I am posting I try to get my point across in Brief manner so that my post are not super long.
> I post here because I believe there are a lot of intelligent woman on LHCF that I can benefit from. So I left out somethings under the assumption that most of us know the true story of Abram. So I apologize to Abram and ALL his decendants (sp), if I came across as pointing a finger of shame.


Girl, don't mind me.  It's just that I've heard the story portrayed in such a negative light sooooo many times that it's become a pet peeve.  And while we may understand what was going on, trust me when I say many do NOT and have this "bad Abram/Sara, shame on you" view on it.  But as we all know when studying scripture, CONTEXT is key.

Have you come to any decision about your church home?


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## PaperClip (Feb 11, 2008)

BlkOnyx488 said:


> LOL, I was not trying to say Abram was bad for what he and his wife both agreed to do. *I was attempting to point out that what God has for you will come to pass.* I know the story of Abram it's just when I am posting I try to get my point across in Brief manner so that my post are not super long.
> I post here because I believe there are a lot of intelligent woman on LHCF that I can benefit from. So I left out somethings under the assumption that most of us know the true story of Abram. So I apologize to Abram and ALL his decendants (sp), if I came across as pointing a finger of shame.



 not so.... in part fpr this reason: FREE WILL.

Also, per Abram and Sarai: when the Lord said that Abram would be the father of nations and he would have a seed, the Lord is NOT going to go outside of the marriage to make it happen. That was ALL ABRAM and SARAI's IDEA = FREE WILL. In a way, it could have been said that that God was condoning ADULTERY  Nope! So the SOVEREIGN LORD had to come back and REMIND Abram and Sarai of what the Lord said, changed their names to Abraham and Sarah and PUT THEM BACK ON THE RIGHT TRACK for the Lord's will to be done...and Abraham and Sarah, in their free will, SUBMITTED to the Word of the Lord and obeyed and WAITED FOR THE PROMISE. Ishmael is the result of Abram and Sarai's IMPATIENCE.


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## Country gal (Feb 11, 2008)

He is dead wrong.


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## motherx2esq (Feb 11, 2008)

SmartyPants said:


> See... this is completely foreign to me! I'm Catholic and our vision of "tithes" (we don't call it that) involves the giving of time, talent, and treasure. You give where you are most able to give.
> 
> *Example:* I am living at home and not working right now because I quit my job to move home and help my mother take care of my terminally ill father. As a college professor, I can't just walk into a college in the middle of a semester or academic year and say hire me. I have to go through the process that will likely see me out of work in my field until August. So, no, I generally don't put any money in church (treasure). However, I do have a master's degree and am in the process of completing the dissertation for the PhD. So, when the church needed someone to update the church census, rather than have the curch pay someone $50 to $100 an hour to do it, I volunteered my professional services free of charge (time). When the church needed someone analyze the data and write up the report from the required Archdiocesan survey, I once again volunteered my professional services (time). I recently also rejoined the lectors ministry that I was a part of before I moved out of state (talent). By your pastor's standards, I would be ineligible to help the church in other capacities because I am not capable of giving treasure at this time. This is completely un-Christian to me and would result in my looking for another church home!


 
This is what I was taught tithing was and I am not Catholic.  Like I stated before I always thought tithing is MORE than JUST money.  Not in place of because you don't want to give money but because we do not always have money.  Some of us are umemoployed or just on hard times and money is not always somthing we have to give.  But we have other things such as talents, time and other gifts.  So when I donate my daughters' and my clothes to a family in need is that not my giving or should I give money even if I do not have much?


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## Nice & Wavy (Feb 11, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> not so.... in part fpr this reason: FREE WILL.
> 
> Also, per Abram and Sarai: when the Lord said that Abram would be the father of nations and he would have a seed, the Lord is NOT going to go outside of the marriage to make it happen. That was ALL ABRAM and SARAI's IDEA = FREE WILL. In a way, it could have been said that that God was condoning ADULTERY  Nope! So the SOVEREIGN LORD had to come back and REMIND Abram and Sarai of what the Lord said, changed their names to Abraham and Sarah and PUT THEM BACK ON THE RIGHT TRACK for the Lord's will to be done...and Abraham and Sarah, in their free will, SUBMITTED to the Word of the Lord and obeyed and WAITED FOR THE PROMISE. Ishmael is the result of Abram and Sarai's IMPATIENCE.


 
ITA with your post, RR.


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## PaperClip (Feb 11, 2008)

A point about tithing: yes, tithing can be done in many forms, and as motherx2esq said, one does not replace another. However, tithing is to be cone regardless of the season of one's life, in good economic times, in bad economic times. When I got laid off TWICE, each time I set aside and gave tithes out of that unemployment check. I also served at my church as well with my time and talents but I still set aside a portion out of my TREASURE to give to the Lord through my local church.

And so yes, donating time and clothing and talents are wonderful.... But money is one of several SPECIFIC things that the church needs to function. And for the sake of positive conversation, let's focus our attention on churches who are good and wise stewards operating in integrity. Our treasure has its particular place for several reasons:

1. Ecclesiastes 10:19 "A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry: but *money answereth all things." *Money makes the world go round. A church can't take a bag of clothes to  pay the light bill, heat bill, etc.

2. Matthew 6:21: "For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

The Message translation: "It's obvious, isn't it? The place where your treasure is, is the place you will most want to be, and end up being."

So where you spend your money (and time and talent, etc.) is where your heart is. This also shows how tithing is a form of WORSHIP unto the Lord.

10 percent: of what you have...everyone gives as they are able. We all are in a position to give some money, even if it's 10 cents out of a dollar. The Lord appreciates a sacrifice and He RESPONDS to one who sacrifices....


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## BlkOnyx488 (Feb 11, 2008)

cheetarah1980 said:


> Girl, don't mind me.  It's just that I've heard the story portrayed in such a negative light sooooo many times that it's become a pet peeve.  And while we may understand what was going on, trust me when I say many do NOT and have this "bad Abram/Sara, shame on you" view on it.  But as we all know when studying scripture, CONTEXT is key.
> 
> * Have you come to any decision about your church home?*



My Husband and I have come to an agreement about this.  We are going to leave the church.  We believe in supporting our church, however, we will never agree with our pastor that people who do not tithe enough or consistently should not be allowed to add their supply by volunteering.  We have come to the conclusion that, it is a gross misinterpretation of God's word.  We are givers we love to give, we give because it's in our heart to do so.  Suggesting that you have to give a certain percentage in order to volunteer, turns it into a forced obligation, and not a willing choice.

Thanks to everyone who took the time to respond to this all your opinions were appreciated


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## Aveena (Feb 11, 2008)

I agree with the others who said tithing is more than just money. 

So the person that can barely make the minimum tithes but has it in their heart to give more and time and LOVE is pushed out/aside/around? 

*sigh.... 

pray on this that God will use this situation to bring understanding to all members of your church without much conflict.


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## Shimmie (Feb 11, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> not so.... in part fpr this reason: FREE WILL.
> 
> Also, per Abram and Sarai: when the Lord said that Abram would be the father of nations and he would have a seed, the Lord is NOT going to go outside of the marriage to make it happen. That was ALL ABRAM and SARAI's IDEA = FREE WILL. In a way, it could have been said that that God was condoning ADULTERY  Nope! So the SOVEREIGN LORD had to come back and REMIND Abram and Sarai of what the Lord said, changed their names to Abraham and Sarah and PUT THEM BACK ON THE RIGHT TRACK for the Lord's will to be done...and Abraham and Sarah, in their free will, SUBMITTED to the Word of the Lord and obeyed and WAITED FOR THE PROMISE. Ishmael is the result of Abram and Sarai's IMPATIENCE.


I agree with this....  Excellent!  

And to add, it's to this very day that the generations of these two brothers are still at war.....


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## PaperClip (Feb 11, 2008)

BlkOnyx488 said:


> My Husband and I have come to an agreement about this. We are going to leave the church. We believe in supporting our church, however, we will never agree with our pastor that people who do not tithe enough or consistently should not be allowed to add their supply by volunteering. We have come to the conclusion that, it is a gross misinterpretation of God's word. We are givers we love to give, we give because it's in our heart to do so. Suggesting that you have to give a certain percentage in order to volunteer, turns it into a forced obligation, and not a willing choice.
> 
> Thanks to everyone who took the time to respond to this all your opinions were appreciated


 
If you're going to leave, leave RIGHT. Go have a conversation with your pastor to inform him of your decision. According to the Word of God, from a spiritual perspective, your pastor has watchcare over your souls. Out of spiritual and natural respect (you were at this church for a decade, yes?), at least give that courtesy to inform him of your plans. And if the subject comes up about why you're leaving, be honest about that as well. 

Also know that problems or issues follow us around when they go unresolved. That's another reason to get things clear and resolved with this pastor before you leave because say you go to the next church and the pastor says something you don't like or agree with. Are you just going to uproot again? Leave right so that the pastor can send a good word with you to your next church destination.

Again, I hope that you all prayed and sought the Lord and listened for an answer. Yes, this may be a point where you all have reached the end of your season with this particular church, but I personally believe that when this occurs, it doesn't occur on a NEGATIVE point. 

As you get the opportunity to speak with your pastor about your plans, I hope that you report back on what that conversation was like.

Peace to you.


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## BlkOnyx488 (Feb 11, 2008)

My Husband and I have come to an agreement about this. We are going to leave the church. We believe in supporting our church, however, we will never agree with our pastor that people who do not tithe enough or consistently should not be allowed to add their supply by volunteering. We have come to the conclusion that, it is a gross misinterpretation of God's word. We are givers we love to give, we give because it's in our heart to do so. Suggesting that you have to give a certain percentage in order to volunteer, turns it into a forced obligation, and not a willing choice.

Thanks to everyone who took the time to respond to this all your opinions were appreciated


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## BlkOnyx488 (Feb 11, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> If you're going to leave, leave RIGHT. Go have a conversation with your pastor to inform him of your decision. According to the Word of God, from a spiritual perspective, your pastor has watchcare over your souls. Out of spiritual and natural respect (you were at this church for a decade, yes?), at least give that courtesy to inform him of your plans. And if the subject comes up about why you're leaving, be honest about that as well.
> 
> Also know that problems or issues follow us around when they go unresolved. That's another reason to get things clear and resolved with this pastor before you leave because say you go to the next church and the pastor says something you don't like or agree with. Are you just going to uproot again? Leave right so that the pastor can send a good word with you to your next church destination.
> 
> ...


 
We have no plans to talk to the the pastor for several reasons
most importantly this is his church, he founded, it's his vision.  We respect that this is the path he wants to lead his church in.  We simply don't agree with it.  Having a conversation with him or church leaders about this will not change anyone's mind, and that's is not what we are after.  

I don't attend church just to say "I go to church" if someone ask.
I believe that just as this place of Worship was introduce to us, there is a new place of worship for us and it will be revealed as well.

I don't see this as a negative,  I care very much for this church they helped strengthen my marriage educated my oldest son, and really helped us gain a better understanding of the WORD coming in as new christians.

My Prayer is that the Vision placed upon him from God comes to pass as God intended.

Thanks for your comments I can tell you have a real heart for the Lord and his people


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## PaperClip (Feb 11, 2008)

BlkOnyx488 said:


> We have no plans to talk to the the pastor for several reasons
> most importantly this is his church, he founded, it's his vision. We respect that this is the path he wants to lead his church in. We simply don't agree with it. Having a conversation with him or church leaders about this will not change anyone's mind, and that's is not what we are after.
> 
> I don't attend church just to say "I go to church" if someone ask.
> ...


 
Ok... amen.... please hear my urging from a sincere place... as you say that you care about this church and the blessing it has been to your marriage and family, don't just walk away without at least sharing your plans with this pastor. As a courtesy. Or at least send him a letter of your plans...and why you all are leaving. Again, the pastor's role is to watch for your souls:

Hebrews 13:17: " Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: *for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief:* for that is unprofitable for you."

Are you concerned that if you talk to them that you will be persuaded to stay? It's the enemy who drops and runs and makes things appear other than what's really there. I am PLEADING with you to have a conversation with your pastor before you go. It's that serious. In proper order with your husband, don't be misled. Don't just stop going. At least inform the pastor so he can know what's going on....


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## Nice & Wavy (Feb 11, 2008)

BlkOnyx488 said:


> We have no plans to talk to the the pastor for several reasons
> most importantly this is his church, he founded, it's his vision. We respect that this is the path he wants to lead his church in. We simply don't agree with it. Having a conversation with him or church leaders about this will not change anyone's mind, and that's is not what we are after.
> 
> I don't attend church just to say "I go to church" if someone ask.
> ...


 
I would like to say to you that I do have to agree with RR on her post because its true....it will follow you wherever you go and it will not be resolved.

I hope you reconsider.  I don't think you should try to change your mind about leaving if this is what the Lord released you to do, but to let them know that you are going to leave is wise.

Blessings to you.


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## SmartyPants (Feb 11, 2008)

It think you should tell the pastor why you are leaving.  Who knows, maybe your example may lead him to reconsider the message he is sending to the congregation through this policy.  It may be that he had something else in mind when he set this policy other than the message you and your husband received.  If, in fact, the message you got is correct, I'd leave too.  If it is not correct, then it gives the pastor the chance to correct the impression he is giving off with the policy--this is a win-win-win situation.  A win for the pastor because he gets to correct a misperception.  A win for you because you and your husband won't have to leave a church community you like. And, a win for other members of the congregation who may not have had the courage to speak up.


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## Nice & Wavy (Feb 11, 2008)

SmartyPants said:


> It think you should tell the pastor why you are leaving. Who knows, maybe your example may lead him to reconsider the message he is sending to the congregation through this policy. It may be that he had something else in mind when he set this policy other than the message you and your husband received. If, in fact, the message you got is correct, I'd leave too. If it is not correct, then it gives the pastor the chance to correct the impression he is giving off with the policy--this is a win-win-win situation. A win for the pastor because he gets to correct a misperception. A win for you because you and your husband won't have to leave a church community you like. And, a win for other members of the congregation who may not have had the courage to speak up.


 
Love this post, smartypants....well done!

And, I also like to add that your leaving will hurt other members as well...members who I'm sure love you guys as family.


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## BlkOnyx488 (Feb 13, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Ok... amen.... please hear my urging from a sincere place... as you say that you care about this church and the blessing it has been to your marriage and family, don't just walk away without at least sharing your plans with this pastor. As a courtesy. Or at least send him a letter of your plans...and why you all are leaving. Again, the pastor's role is to watch for your souls:
> 
> Hebrews 13:17: " Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: *for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief:* for that is unprofitable for you."
> 
> Are you concerned that if you talk to them that you will be persuaded to stay? It's the enemy who drops and runs and makes things appear other than what's really there. I am PLEADING with you to have a conversation with your pastor before you go. It's that serious. In proper order with your husband, don't be misled. Don't just stop going. At least inform the pastor so he can know what's going on....



I respect your concern, but to be perfectly honest I don't think he would care.  His church has about 10,000 members.  He is rather arrogant in his approach with people who don't agree with how he runs his church.  We will notify the Ministry heads of the areas of Ministry we were active in.  But only out of respect not to open a dialogue about our decision to leave.


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