# Are We All Children of God?



## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Oct 5, 2011)

I often hear unsaved people say how they are children of God, but are they really...here's what the bible has to say:

*Question: "Are we all God's children, or only Christians?"

Answer: *The Bible is clear that all people are God’s creation (Colossians 1:16), and that God loves the entire world (John 3:16), but only those who are born again are children of God (John 1:12; 11:52; Romans 8:16; 1 John 3:1-10).

In Scripture, the lost are never referred to as children of God. Ephesians 2:3 tells us that before we were saved we were “by nature objects of wrath.” Romans 9:8 says that “it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.” Instead of being born as God’s children, we are born in sin, which separates us from God and aligns us with Satan as God’s enemy (James 4:4; 1 John 3:8). Jesus said, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me” (John 8:42). Then a few verses later in John 8:44, Jesus told the Pharisees that they “belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire.” The fact that those who are not saved are not children of God is also seen in 1 John 3:10: “This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.”

We become children of God when we are saved because we are adopted into God’s family through our relationship with Jesus Christ (Galatians 4:5-6; Ephesians 1:5). This can be clearly seen in verses like Romans 8:14-17: “…because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, ‘Abba, Father.’ The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.” Those who are saved are children “of God through faith in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:26) because God has “predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will” (Ephesians 1:5).

taken from got questions.org


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## Laela (Oct 5, 2011)

Very well... I'll post it here.

What does the Spirit of God tell you about this?
http://universalpropheticministry.com/default.aspx
-----------------------

{not directed at you iwanthealthyhair ..you being generally speaking - I was about to post this in a separate thread, then you posted this thread and I struggled for a second on whether to post it separately but had the unction to post it here -- simply because of the timing and the topic. I sincerely hope you don't mind. }


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Oct 5, 2011)

No worries, it's cool ...

I stopped reading at 'Master' of prophecy...

I'll brb going to finish reading, before I comment


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Oct 5, 2011)

It's methaphysics!!!!!!!

I hate to see scriptures twisted like this ...

'Master Prophet' is not scriptural, some of the things that he promises to do for folk as a 'personal' prophet the Lord has already equipped the 'saved' to do...

Just another ploy to confuse the people spiritually and take their money...


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## Goombay_Summer (Oct 5, 2011)

I was also confused and wondered if I had been directed to the wrong website because metaphysics is a branch of philosophy that examines the nature of reality, including the relationship between mind and matter, substance and attribute, fact and value...... old slewfoot is certainly crafty sprinkling a few scriptures here and there, as he leads you down the board road to destruction.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Oct 5, 2011)

hanna they mix up like conch salad and you know we have a methaphysics book store here now and a few churches springing up, smh


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## Poohbear (Oct 5, 2011)

So are we all children of the devil since none of us do what is right? *1 John 3:10*


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## Goombay_Summer (Oct 5, 2011)

Iwanthealthyhair67 we have become too caught up in the appearance of being modern and progressive that we fall for this new age feels good philosophy nonsense thinking that we are being spiritually evolved.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Oct 5, 2011)

hanna light agreed, sadly when 'they' catch cold we blow our noses...


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## Laela (Oct 5, 2011)

Me too... I wanted to see if others saw what I saw. God is not the author of confusion. I shared this because this is someone that is messing with the spiritual life of someone I know (who grew up in a holiness church and should know better) I agree that it's a spiritual ploy to deceive. It's really bothering my spirit, because he has a church and everything...
Metaphysics is: THE SCIENCE WHICH INVESTIGATES FIRST CAUSES OF ALL EXISTENCE AND  KNOWLEDGE: SPECULATIVE PHILOSOPHY therefore he is investigating  GOD'S  cause of existence in my opinion. Almighty God knows those who are His!





Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> It's methaphysics!!!!!!!
> 
> I hate to see scriptures twisted like this ...
> 
> ...


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## Laela (Oct 5, 2011)

Yes, it's the *wrong *Web site..  I apologize about that Hanna_Light.. I'm not espousing the site at all. This a 'prophet' I just came into the knowledge of and it hit close to home for me. When I saw this thread title, I decided to post it here instead.




hanna_light said:


> *I was also confused and wondered if I had been directed to the wrong website* because metaphysics is a branch of philosophy that examines the nature of reality, including the relationship between mind and matter, substance and attribute, fact and value...... old slewfoot is certainly crafty sprinkling a few scriptures here and there, as he leads you down the board road to destruction.


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## LucieLoo12 (Oct 5, 2011)

Everyone isnt doing wrong. Some people are sold out and living for God..





Poohbear said:


> So are we all children of the devil since none of us do what is right? *1 John 3:10*


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## LucieLoo12 (Oct 5, 2011)

People feel like they are saved because these *false* prophets , there pastors, are telling them they are saved. No one wants to line up there life or examine thier life by the word of God to see if they qualify. They would rather someone else just "put" them in Heaven. People just want to feel good, they dont want to hear about sins or shortcoming..they just want to hear how "blessed and highly favored" they are.  



**when I say people, im speaking generally**



Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> I often hear unsaved people say how they are children of God, but are they really...here's what the bible has to say:
> 
> *Question: "Are we all God's children, or only Christians?"*
> 
> ...


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Oct 5, 2011)

Are you saying that based on 1 John 3:10 *nobody *does what is right , is that your understanding of the scripture given?




Poohbear said:


> So are we all children of the devil since none of us do what is right? *1 John 3:10*


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## Mis007 (Oct 5, 2011)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> I often hear unsaved people say how they are children of God, but are they really...here's what the bible has to say:
> 
> *We become children of God when we are saved because we are adopted into God’s family through our relationship with Jesus Christ (**Galatians 4:5-6**; **Ephesians 1:5**). *




*I always thought this to mean that we are children of God, I have never truly heard an unsaved person claim that they are.*


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## LucieLoo12 (Oct 5, 2011)

But alot of unsaved people, are claiming to be saved




Mis007 said:


> [/B][/SIZE]
> 
> *I always thought this to mean that we are children of God, I have never truly heard an unsaved person claim that they are.*


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Oct 5, 2011)

I think many un-saved people will have a problem being called a child of the 'devil'...for the most part almost everyone would like to think that he/she has a relationship with God, but the truth of the matter is if one is not saved he is a sinner and is a child of the devil...

We are all God's creation however, if we we are no saved we are not his children, God children do the will of their Father...


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## Guitarhero (Oct 5, 2011)

Yes, but there are levels of meaning in scripture.  We are all loved, smiled upon, protected by the same Creator but some of us will live according to His will and will go to the happy hunting grounds...others of us, not.  When He talks love to us, it's to all of us.


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## Goombay_Summer (Oct 5, 2011)

It is the worldly equivalent of showing up to a deceased person will read that you have never had any type interaction with while they were alive and honestly expecting to receive an inheritance, on par with that persons offspring. Either you are legal entitled to receive something or you are not there are no grey areas the same thing with the kingdom of God either you are his kid through adoption or you are Satan's offspring.


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## makeupgirl (Oct 6, 2011)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> I often hear unsaved people say how they are children of God, but are they really...here's what the bible has to say:
> 
> *Question: "Are we all God's children, or only Christians?"*
> 
> ...


 
I love me some gotquestions.org

It's scriptural and it makes the answers so direct and simple.  

No, we are not all children of God.  If anything I think this is one of the things that is misleading.  A common man made mistake trying to justify the word of God.  

If we were born into sin and born spiritually seperated from God, that makes it plain right here that we're not all the children of God.  The unbelievers are still in this natural state and although it's unfortunate, this is the way it is.  WE all started out like this before we gave our life to Christ.  But we were who are now in Christ was also chosen before the foundation of the world. (Eph 1:3-4)  So God knew who would truly be his kids and who wouldn't.  

OP is right, I here unbelievers constantly say "we're all children of God".  Really?  Then prove that you're truly a child of God.  How does one prove that he is?  Ask them if they have truly believed, accepted, and received Christ into their hearts?  If they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? If they believe that Jesus came to earth in the flesh?  Ask if they believe that Jesus is God?


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## Guitarhero (Oct 6, 2011)

Remember, when Jesus calls us to the table, please know that there are going to be other Judas' there and Jesus called him the one He loved.  He didn't close the door to anyone as He is friend to all, like a brother.  It's up to the individual to answer the spirit call  but not up to us to judge another's walk.  But for grace...but for grace and we don't realize how close to hell each and every one of us are.  In His temple here on earth, all are invited and we sit side-by-side.  It's only a matter of a moment to accept.  Yet, He opens to the door to all His creation and He loves them no differently.  Believers should be painfully aware of their continuous wretchedness because He has the most mercy for the worst sinners.  The worse off you are spiritually, the more mercy there is available.  That should eternally humble all of us.  We're all brethern under His gift to the world...Hindu, Buddhist, Catholic, Jew, Pagan, Wiccan, Baptist, Presbyterian, even satanist.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Oct 6, 2011)

^^Their are lots of 'believers' who visit the christian fellowship section of this board, who need to know that we are not all children of God either we are going to believe the bible as a whole or not at all...

I am not judging anyone's walk just stating fact according to scripture, no one has disputed that Father loves us all however, he does hate sin.  It is He who stands at the door of our hearts and knocks, it is us that will not let him in...His desire is that ALL men be saved and all men will not which  proves that we are not all children of God.

I'm sorry but the Hindu and Buddhist etc., are not my brothers, my brothers are those who do the will of the Father.


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## Sharpened (Oct 8, 2011)

> *2 Corinthians 11:6* But though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been thoroughly made manifest among you in all things.
> *Ephesians 6:17* And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
> 
> *Hebrews 4:12* For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
> ...


 _

Remember, when Jesus calls us to the table, please know that there are going to be other Judas' there and Jesus called him the one He loved. _



> *John 21:20-21* Then Peter, turning about, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, “Lord, which is he that betrays you?” Peter seeing him said to Jesus, “Lord, and what shall this man do?”


 Judas was out of the picture; John was referring to himself.


_He didn't close the door to anyone _



> *Matthew 8:21-22* And another of his disciples said to Him, “Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.”
> 
> But Jesus said to him, “Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.”
> 
> ...


 _

as He is friend to all, like a brother. _



> *Matthew 12:46-50* While [Jesus] yet talked to the people, behold, His mother and His brothers stood without, desiring to speak with Him. Then one said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers stand without, desiring to speak with You.”
> But he answered and said to him that told him, “Who is my mother? And who are My brothers?” And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, “Behold My mother and My brothers! For whoever shall do the will of My Father which is in heaven, the same is My brother, and sister, and mother.”
> 
> *Mark 3:31-35* There came then His brothers and His mother, and, standing without, sent to Him, calling Him. And the multitude sat about Him, and they said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers without seek for You.”
> ...


 _

It's up to the individual to answer the spirit call but not up to us to judge another's walk._



> *1 Corinthians 6:1-6* Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints (fellow believers)? Do you not know that the saints shall judge the world? And if the world shall be judged by you (believers), are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know you not that we shall judge angels? How much more things that pertain to this life?
> If then you have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church (the assembly, the called-out ones, His Body). I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brothers? But brother goes to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
> 
> *2 Corinthians 12:21-13:2* And lest, when I come again, My God will humble me among you, and that I shall mourn many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed. This is the third time I am coming to you. “At the mouth of two witnesses or three shall every word established.” [Matthew 18:16, 1 Timothy 5:19, Hebrews 10:28-29, Deuteronomy 17:6, Deuteronomy 19:15]
> ...


Not only Did Paul judge people’s walks, but gave them warnings as well. That is agape in action.


_But for grace...but for grace and we don't realize how close to hell each and every one of us are. _



> *1 Corinthians 15:10* But by the grace of God I am what I am: and His grace which was bestowed on me was not in vain (fruitless, pointless, powerless); but I labored more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.


Grace also means the blessing of obeying the Holy Spirit as He directs us, for He knows what pleases the Father and His Son. See Luke 24:49, John 7:37-39, John 14:26, Acts 1:4-5

_
_


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## Sharpened (Oct 8, 2011)

_In His temple here on earth, all are invited and we sit side-by-side. _

 His temple is the Body of Christ, His true believers, of which He is  the head. The parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:24-30,  36-42) explains that the field represents the world and the things and  ideas coming from it.


_It's only a matter of a moment to accept._



> *Matthew 22:14* For many are called, but few are chosen.


 _

Yet, He opens to the door to all His creation and He loves them no differently. _



> *Jude 1:6* And the angels which kept not their first estate,  but left their own habitation, He has reserved in everlasting chains  under darkness to the judgment of the great day.
> 
> *2 Peter 2:4-6 *For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but  cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to  be reserved to judgment.
> 
> ...


 _

Believers should be painfully aware of their continuous wretchedness because He has the most mercy for the worst sinners. _



> *Romans 9:15-16* For He said to Moses, “I will have mercy  on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will  have compassion.” [Exodus 33:19] So then it is not of Him that wills,  nor of Him that runs, but of God that shows mercy.


Yes, but,



> *Romans 9:17-18* For the scripture said to Pharaoh, “Even  for this same purpose have I raised you up, that I might show My power  in you, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth.”  [Exodus 9:16] Therefore has He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and  whom He will He hardens.


...and...



> *1 Peter 2:10* Once you were not a people, but now you are  the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have  received mercy.


  His blessing of mercy  is for believers who stumble. Others are spare for a short while because  they are instruments of His will. He has the last word, but His  long-suffering (of things against His nature) should not be abused.  Judgment is not forestalled indefinitely.


_The worse off you are spiritually, the more mercy there is available. _



> *1 Timothy 1:12-16* I [Paul] thank Christ Jesus our Lord who  gives me strength, because he considered me to be faithful and chose me  to serve, although I used to be a skeptic, a persecutor, and a bully.  However, I received mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. The  grace of our Lord overflowed for me with faith and love in Christ  Jesus.
> It is true to say, and this deserves to be fully accepted, that Christ  Jesus came into the world to save sinners — and I am the worst of them.  The reason why I received mercy was so that in me, the worst of  sinners, Jesus Christ could demonstrate all his patience, as an example for people who were going to believe in him for eternal life.


A babe in Christ could interpret your statement as “I am still a  horrible sinner, so God will save me even to the day of my death, no  matter what I do.” We are to transcend this, being reborn in spirit  (John 3) and His Law written on our hearts (Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel  36:26, Jeremiah 24:7, Jeremiah 31:33, Romans 2:15, 2 Corinthians 3:3,  Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16), as we yearn for and obey His will (Isaiah  51:7, Psalm 37:23, Psalm 37:31, Psalm 40:8, Psalm 119:11, Isaiah 51:1).


_That should eternally humble all of us. _

  Humility (meekness) – the complete absence of self in all we think,  say, or do. In the face of the entire nature and character of the  Eternal Creator, we are but a spark and a speck of dust. That and Christ  within keep me down as he works on and through me.


_We're all brethern under His gift to the  world...Hindu, Buddhist, Catholic, Jew, Pagan, Wiccan, Baptist,  Presbyterian, even satanist._



> *Isaiah 35:8* And a highway shall be there, and a way, and  it shall be called “The way of holiness.” The unclean shall not pass  over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools,  shall not err therein.
> *Matthew 7:13-14* Enter you in at the strait (narrow) gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction,  and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and  narrow is the way, which leads to life, and few there be that find it.
> 
> *John 10:1* Truly, truly, I say to you, He that enters not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
> ...


What did Jesus command us to do? Deny self (give up everything), pick up  your cross (sacrifice self—our will, the natural man), and follow Me  (do as I say and do). See Matthew 10:38, Matthew 11:29, Matthew 16:24,  Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23, Luke 14:27, John 21:19, 1 Corinthians 15:31, 1  John 2:6.



> *1 John 2:15-17 *Love not the world, neither the things that  are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is  not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the  lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is  of the world. And the world passes away, and the lust thereof: but he  that does the will of God stays for ever.


I hate having to say this, but I feel blankness, a wall whenever I read  your words. You hold too much of the world and its ideas within your  soul, stifling your spirit and His connection to you. He cannot get  through to you! It scares me, to be honest, and not much frightens me  anymore. Please, I beg you in tears, strip your mind and heart naked and  seek Him alone without any physical distractions. You are in danger and  I suspect you already know this…


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## Jynlnd13 (Oct 10, 2011)

.................


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## Jynlnd13 (Oct 10, 2011)

.........................................


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Oct 10, 2011)

Nymphe


Amen!

*Mark 3:31-35* There came then His brothers and His mother, and, standing without, sent to Him, calling Him. And the multitude sat about Him, and they said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers without seek for You.”

And He answered them, saying, “Who is My mother, or My brothers?” And He looked round about on them which sat about Him, and said, “Behold My mother and My brothers! For whoever shall do the will of God, the same is My brother, and M sister, and mother.”


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Oct 10, 2011)

Jynlnd13

I saw it you weren't out of order, just speaking truth...On this walk when you speak truth your friends will be few and so will your 'thanks' ...

rock of offense in indeed




Jynlnd13 said:


> -- my mom said to remove my post.--


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## Jynlnd13 (Oct 10, 2011)

..........................................


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Oct 10, 2011)

I understand completely...obdedience is also key to this walk...




Jynlnd13 said:


> Thanks, she just doesn't want me getting into debates and stuff right now. I tried to explain to her, but she said to take it off because of some other reasons, and since she my mommy, I listen to what she says, cause she is usually right lol.


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## julzinha (Oct 12, 2011)

I'm trying to understand that you all say that we are all not children of God and saying that Hindus and Buddhist are not your brothers, but these are all things that divide humanity as opposed to offering any kind of unity. In relation to those that do not share the same religion as you.


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## Guitarhero (Oct 13, 2011)

Nymphe said:


> _
> 
> I hate having to say this, but I feel blankness, a wall whenever I read  your words. You hold too much of the world and its ideas within your  soul, stifling your spirit and His connection to you. He cannot get  through to you! It scares me, to be honest, and not much frightens me  anymore. *Please, I beg you in tears, strip your mind and heart naked and  seek Him alone without any physical distractions. **You are in danger and  I suspect you already know this*…_


_

It is because you do not fully comprehend my words, are operating off of feelings and misinformation -  not off of any true "blankness."  Ma'am, I'm in His Church and all that He desired in fullness is right there before me as it is there before anyone.  Per the red-bolded...I'll tell you a story I heard some years back.  A christian woman was praying for her friend who had fallen into some sin.  She was talking to the L-rd about what she's done wrong and how she could improve and the L-rd told her....(this is not verbatim) ..."be concerned with your own salvation and step out of my way."   

Nymphe, pray for peace for all people, including you and your family...for world peace...for the peace of Jerusalem which is a biblical mandate.  Do not be afraid for me._


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Oct 13, 2011)

GH,

I'm not trying to be rude, but if you can back World Peace up from a biblical standpoint I would like to read it. 



Guitarhero said:


> It is because you do not fully comprehend my words, are operating off of feelings and misinformation - not off of any true "blankness." Ma'am, I'm in His Church and all that He desired in fullness is right there before me as it is there before anyone. Per the red-bolded...I'll tell you a story I heard some years back. A christian woman was praying for her friend who had fallen into some sin. She was talking to the L-rd about what she's done wrong and how she could improve and the L-rd told her....(this is not verbatim) ..."be concerned with your own salvation and step out of my way."
> 
> Nymphe, pray for peace for all people, including you and your family...for world peace...for the peace of Jerusalem which is a biblical mandate. Do not be afraid for me.


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## Sharpened (Oct 13, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> It is because you do not fully comprehend my words, are operating off of feelings and misinformation -  not off of any true "blankness."  Ma'am, I'm in His Church and all that He desired in fullness is right there before me as it is there before anyone.  Per the red-bolded...I'll tell you a story I heard some years back.  A christian woman was praying for her friend who had fallen into some sin.  She was talking to the L-rd about what she's done wrong and how she could improve and the L-rd told her....(this is not verbatim) ..."be concerned with your own salvation and step out of my way."
> 
> Nymphe, pray for peace for all people, including you and your family...for world peace...for the peace of Jerusalem which is a biblical mandate.  Do not be afraid for me.



As someone who lived as the world had, I know when someone sounds just like the world does. He, the Father, gave me all of that scripture to counter the numerous errors you posted. The warning is from Him; I am doing as I am told. Good-night.


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## Guitarhero (Oct 14, 2011)

Nymphe said:


> As someone who lived as the world had, I know when someone sounds just like the world does. He, the Father, gave me all of that scripture to counter the numerous errors you posted. The warning is from Him; I am doing as I am told. Good-night.



You mean well, at least.  I can assure you, Jesus speaks to me directly, through scripture and through His Eucharist.  I was called to where I am.


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## Guitarhero (Oct 14, 2011)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> GH,
> 
> I'm not trying to be rude, but if you can back World Peace up from a biblical standpoint I would like to read it.



We Are the World thread...I responded with scripture there...directly related to the topic in this thread.


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## Poohbear (Oct 14, 2011)

Alicialynn86 said:


> Everyone isnt doing wrong. Some people are sold out and living for God..



Alicialynn86 - what do you mean by "everyone isn't doing wrong?" Are you saying, "everyone isn't sinning"?

For the some people who are sold out and living for God... what does that entail? How can one be sold for Christ and living for God with sin in their life if everyone sins and can't stop sinning til they die? Or is that concept of the "sinning Christian" simply untrue?



Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> Are you saying that based on 1 John 3:10 *nobody *does what is right , is that your understanding of the scripture given?


Iwanthealthyhair67 - when I made my initial post, I was being a bit sarcastic in that a lot of Christians take up for themselves or other people when they do not do right. The scripture clearly says, "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."

So there's 3 things:
1) If you do not do what is right
2) If you are not a child of God
3) If you do not love your brother
...then you are a child of the devil.

I don't think anyone does what is right all the time, and I know there are people who do not love others.


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## Poohbear (Oct 14, 2011)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> ^^Their are lots of 'believers' who visit the christian fellowship section of this board, who need to know that we are not all children of God either we are going to believe the bible as a whole or not at all...
> 
> I am not judging anyone's walk just stating fact according to scripture, no one has disputed that Father loves us all however, he does hate sin.  *It is He who stands at the door of our hearts and knocks, it is us that will not let him in...His desire is that ALL men be saved and all men will not which  proves that we are not all children of God.
> 
> I'm sorry but the Hindu and Buddhist etc., are not my brothers, my brothers are those who do the will of the Father.*



Iwanthealthyhair67 - I see where you have said that your brothers are those who do the will of the Father... how do you know if someone is doing the will of the Father? By outward actions, inner attitude, or both?  And what specific things do they have to do to prove that they are a child of God to you?

You just said God desires all men to be saved which proves that we are not all children of God... so how would you know who's saved and who's not saved?  The bible says we have to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling...so none of us are truly saved YET. Salvation has not come yet. Jesus is our salvation and has not returned yet. We still live in a cruel, evil, wicked world of sin.

Just like you, current Hindus and Buddhists that are living have the opportunity to believe in Jesus and work out their salvation. We are all creations of God.


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## makeupgirl (Oct 14, 2011)

Poohbear said:


> @Iwanthealthyhair67 - I see where you have said that your brothers are those who do the will of the Father... how do you know if someone is doing the will of the Father? By outward actions, inner attitude, or both? And what specific things do they have to do to prove that they are a child of God to you?
> 
> You just said God desires all men to be saved which proves that we are not all children of God... so how would you know who's saved and who's not saved? The bible says we have to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling...so none of us are truly saved YET. *Salvation has not come yet. Jesus is our salvation and has not returned yet.* We still live in a cruel, evil, wicked world of sin.
> 
> Just like you, current Hindus and Buddhists that are living have the opportunity to believe in Jesus and work out their salvation. We are all creations of God.


 
Salvation has come.  It was available to all men upon the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.  When Christ gave up the ghost and said "It is finished" the penalty for our sins were paid for in full.  Salvation is a free gift.  So when we have believed and trusted Christ as our Lord and Savior and ask him to save us, that's salvation.  WE have then accepted the free gift.  We're still here in his world to be about his business spreading the gospel to others.  When we die physically, it's our appointed time after the judgment.  Those who are in Christ, will stand before him at the judgment seat of Christ.  Those who are not in Christ, will stand before him at the white throne judgment and then will go to the lake of fire.  

"Work out your salvation with fear and trembling" is probably one of the most misquoted scriptures that man has used to twist the way they think it should be.  

Paul was telling the Phillipians (yeah I spelled that wrong, lol) in so many words...hey now that you're in Christ, do what you are suppose to do (pray, study the word, feed the spirit, etc) with respect and reverence to God.  Doesn't mean work for your salvation. If it meant that, no doubt he would have said that.  Also, if it meant to work for our salvation, it would have contradict Eph 2:8-9.  

Haven't seen you in a while Pooh, Hope all is well


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Oct 14, 2011)

sorry but I saw no scripture that validates world peace, i'll look again




Guitarhero said:


> We Are the World thread...I responded with scripture there...directly related to the topic in this thread.


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## Guitarhero (Oct 14, 2011)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> sorry but I saw no scripture that validates world peace, i'll look again



Seems everyone is attempting to place an evil shade over true world peace.  World peace is just world peace, imho.  Adherence to religion is another.  I spoke on repairing the world which is a Jewish concept taken from scripture.


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## Sharpened (Oct 15, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> You mean well, at least.  I can assure you, Jesus speaks to me directly, through scripture and through His Eucharist.  I was called to where I am.


  If you are in the middle of a war, no bibles, churches, and struggling to find sustenance, what will you do? The Bible is full of the various ways He communicates with His people; the only things I have not experienced yet are open (wide awake) visions and full conversations. Don’t you want Him to speak within you?

  He may have called you there, but that does not mean you were to stay. He knows the comfort you desire in ritual and tradition, but He will break you of this so you can turn to Him alone. Better to take the lumps now, willingly, than being shocked later. And that goes for all of those comfortable in any religion.




Guitarhero said:


> Seems everyone is attempting to place an evil shade over true world peace.  World peace is just world peace, imho.  Adherence to religion is another.  I spoke on repairing the world which is a Jewish concept taken from scripture.


  World peace is a human concept; there will be no true peace until the rule of man is destroyed. Any peace man comes up with will be short-lived due to the nature of man. See, Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Revelation, and the books of Evangel.

  Jesus is my peace, just as He said to the disciples. As long as His Spirit dwells within me and I obey Him, I have nothing to worry about.


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## Poohbear (Oct 15, 2011)

makeupgirl said:


> "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling" is probably one of the most misquoted scriptures that man has used to twist the way they think it should be.
> 
> Paul was telling the Phillipians (yeah I spelled that wrong, lol) in so many words...hey now that you're in Christ, do what you are suppose to do (pray, study the word, feed the spirit, etc) with respect and reverence to God.  Doesn't mean work for your salvation. If it meant that, no doubt he would have said that.  Also, if it meant to work for our salvation, it would have contradict Eph 2:8-9.
> 
> Haven't seen you in a while Pooh, Hope all is well



I did not say that verse means work for your salvation. I don't believe in works salvation. I'm not sure how to explain what I mean but I wasn't twisting scripture.

But anyway, I've been doing alright for the most part.


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## Guitarhero (Oct 15, 2011)

Nymphe said:


> If you are in the middle of a war, no bibles, churches, and struggling to find sustenance, what will you do? The Bible is full of the various ways He communicates with His people; the only things I have not experienced yet are open (wide awake) visions and full conversations. Don’t you want Him to speak within you?
> 
> *He may have called you there,* but that does not mean you were to stay. He knows the comfort you desire in ritual and tradition, but *He will break you of this so you can turn to Him alone. Better to take the lumps now, willingly, than being shocked later. And that goes for all of those comfortable in any religion.*
> 
> ...



I know you  mean well but I don't want your church, I want mine.  It fulfills me.  If I were in the middle of war with no bibles?  I'd pull out my rosary and recite it.  If no rosary, I'd use my fingers, toes, sticks and stones to recite it to mark the prayers.  What would YOU DO???  That should remain your focus.

He is my peace and He called me to literally drink His blood and eat His flesh.  You cannot save me, thank G-d!  Thank G-d I cannot save you!!!  We are all wretched.  He is sufficient.  Let every man follow the walk that the Creator has lain before him.  I will stand until the day I pass from this flesh in the knowledge and peace of His catholic church.  

Attempting to guilt someone, scare  via theology, coerce...are all proselytization and that is against another's human dignity.  I don't care if you or anyone else ever becomes a catholic...what I care about is if *I REMAIN* a catholic. Maybe you should return the favor?   You cannot scare me into your point of view.  Shrugs.  I'm solid as a rock.  Rather than being fixated on me and succumbing to your emotions which are not prophetic, please look within yourself and make *you*life the best christian you can be.  Thanks anyway and I truly know you mean well.  Hugs.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Oct 15, 2011)

God bless your heart GH you are very idealistic however, there will be no world peace, no matter how hard we pray wish hope believe we will never be able to bring about world peace, whatever we do must be done in the name of Jesus only He can bring world peace.

This is the time we are living in, Matt 24:6-7

And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet.  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 







Guitarhero said:


> Seems everyone is attempting to place an evil shade over true world peace. World peace is just world peace, imho. Adherence to religion is another. I spoke on repairing the world which is a Jewish concept taken from scripture.


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## Guitarhero (Oct 15, 2011)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> God bless your heart GH you are very idealistic however, there will be no world peace, no matter how hard we pray wish hope believe we will never be able to bring about world peace, whatever we do must be done in the name of Jesus only He can bring world peace.
> 
> This is the time we are living in, Matt 24:6-7
> 
> And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet.  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places.




To understand my stance,  you need to think about my posts and not interject what it is you think I'm saying because of the code word "world peace" triggering any negative connotations to your religious point of view.  Condescension   ...there are no children in this thread.  

Peace and repairing the world is doing GOOD as G-d would have you do in your own corner of the world...and if it takes one to a larger cooperative/goals etc., then so be it.  One starts with self, following the divine order.  In this thread, folks started off looking at the world system and its attempt to remove G-d from the equation or, at least, christ (as though everyone is christian).  They then began to look at the example provided of We Are The World and then delve into the personal lives of the individual participants, totally omitting what the obvious goal of the org. was, relief of hunger and appealing to all people to realize we all live on this globe of one flesh...brethern.


However that org. evolved it's theological/philosophical points, I don't think the celebrities cared.  They didn't write the song, only sang, supported for the cause.  U2 was very involved and those are "born-again" christians who regularly support justice the globe over.  Governments remained mum about the mass starvations of millions...as they are today with Somalia.  Someone decided to do something about it on a grassroots level.  The theology behind some people not being christian and new age etc. is above and beyond the original intent of that organization.  

World peace...that is what charities are all about...repairing the world around them.... in my book and that's what I've explained various times.  Jesus said that the poor will always be around.  It's an opportunity for all of us to see everyone as He sees us...children from one Father.  Don't think I am naive because I realize most are thinking of the final anti-christ and new world order.  But as I've mentioned time upon time to no avail, there are various levels of meaning in scripture and this is not to say that all people will recognize Christ.  We are still brothers as we are all flesh.  He came in the flesh before any of us accepted Him.  We're still brethern despite our religious adherence.  I don't believe that G-d is asking christians to hedge themselves off from the rest of the world in this way to think that they cannot participate in any general goal to alleviate suffering the world over.  This is my take on the issue of the term "world peace" along with scriptural mandate (previously given in other posts) and I don't presume to agree with others in their own interpretation.  I'm just clarifying mine.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Oct 15, 2011)

^^condescending at whom ... children never implied it

but thank you for everything else...we all entitled to our views and we have both made them abundantly clear, whether others agree or disagree I'm okay with that...


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## nathansgirl1908 (Oct 15, 2011)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> sorry but I saw no scripture that validates world peace, i'll look again



I'm so confused right now. What exactly is wrong with someone wanting to pray for world peace?


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## Guitarhero (Oct 15, 2011)

Sigh.....perhaps you missed it...it was in your opening but that's ok.  But it was  like patting my precious little head as though I haven't a clue.  Not!  LOL.  Anyway, I was coming back in here to put it into another perspective.  How is it we project love?  I think this is the key.  Some people believe it should be first and foremost to G-d...others think that it should be that plus projecting it towards others...then the question of how we act upon it.  Those are basically the camps of difference I see in this entire discussion...how is it we are to project love...by separating ourselves off in this personal relationship we have of G-d or (and/or) fulfilling it through acts of love towards others despite their belief systems.  At least, this is what I believe I'm witnessing here.  They both are valid.


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## Guitarhero (Oct 15, 2011)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> I'm so confused right now. What exactly is wrong with someone wanting to pray for world peace?



G-d actually commands it.  "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem."  This is the world peace...and we herald it in by out acts of love (a Jewish concept of ushering in the Messiah).  I've probably just caused more confusion    with those who don't know what the diddly I'm talking about.  But it's biblical.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Oct 15, 2011)

me calling you idealistic is not being condescending...if you believe that you can pray for world peace then continue ...praying for the peace of jerusalem is not the world ...as you say I don't know diddly of which you speak I can say the same of you at least we are in agreement on something


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## Guitarhero (Oct 17, 2011)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> me calling you idealistic is not being condescending...if you believe that you can pray for world peace then continue ...praying for the peace of jerusalem is not the world ...as you say I don't know diddly of which you speak I can say the same of you at least we are in agreement on something



I didn't say YOU didn't know diddly...I was introducing another concept and knowing I'm introducing something that many will not comprehend ....I was realizing I shouldn't have introduced it but felt compelled even though I would be complicating things.  We're not in agreement of nice-nasty and veiled insults, however.  I don't want any part of that.  Yes, you were condescending by saying "bless your heart."    I've mentioned what peace I'm talking about.  I'm repost to make sure I am not misquoted through any mistakes:


Quote from that post since you haven't read it:

#11 in We Are the World

Genesis 1:28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

 Genesis 5:2 He created them male and female and blessed them. And when they were created, he called them "man."
 Genesis 8:17 Bring out every kind of living creature that is with you--the birds, the animals, and all the creatures that move along the ground--so they can multiply on the earth and be fruitful and increase in number upon it."
 Genesis 9:1 Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth.
 Genesis 9:7 As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it."
 Leviticus 26:9 "'I will look on you with favor and make you fruitful and increase your numbers, and I will keep my covenant with you.

 ================================================== =========

 He's asking us to not put material things above spiritual things nor to place any other g-d above Him. He created this earth and loves this planet as well as the animals on it and man . He asks us to protect this earth and all the animals in it. He gives us the ability to make our lives better and to invent. He wants us to use the beautiful things He gives and to be thankful for them. And do we remember the second greatest commandment? To love each other as brethern..as we are to love our very own lives. When true peace and brotherhood is accomplished, there is Christ right there. We know that Christ is the way but we do not know how He accomplishes this in every life and when for each man to make a decision with full knowledge. His desire is that we have a different relationship with Him starting right here on earth but the thing about Jesus, He never forced anyone to believe in Him. It remains an open invitation and His servants are to live out their faith through example, not force. He is opposed to evil and this is how "world" is being used in those scriptures. It would seem odd that a G-d who made man and his environment in the physical would prohibit him from enjoying the very physical nature he placed him within. Evil and idolatry...those oppose the relationship to G-d. Man not being able to see those of other races, creeds and origins as his brethern are not on G-d's side, actually (referring to the fear in the article of We Are the World etc.). He always speaks peace to His children...all of them, not just christians and Jews. There are different levels of meaning in scripture and we sometimes do not look at the whole picture. This is just my opinion on the subject and is not directed to any individual.


#14, same thread:

I just think they are asking people to donate to an organization to relieve poverty and starvation and help others survive. Pooling from world sources makes sense. This is what Jesus says...notice, He doesn't say "christians/Jews/believers..." and in that, anyone can be Jesus when they do the following:

 ===============================
 Luke 3:11 “John answered, ‘the man with two tunics should share with him who has none, and the one who has food should do the same.’"

 Luke 12:33 "Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys."

 2 Corinthians 9:6-9 “Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. As it is written: ‘He has scattered abroad his gifts to the poor; his righteousness endures forever.’"

 1 Timothy 6:18 “Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share.”

 James 1:27 “Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.”

 ==============

 He has always looked out for all mankind, not just those under the first covenant, nor the second. Why doesn't it bother me that others are not christians? I don't worry about it because I know that G-d has full control and is just. Don't get me wrong, I do believe in His gift of salvation, I just don't worry concerning how others will be justified or not. Concern doesn't equal worry, though. Well, that's my take on the article.

#20, same thread:

Could one go past christianity into judaism to derive an even older and deeper meaning of "repairing the world" in the attempt to seek out what people should do? Joshua wrote a Jewish prayer that is recited thrice daily even up to today and in it there is a call for the world to abandon idolatry and in that, we will have been perfected. Jesus didn't change any of that and the reason I'm bringing it up is that the new testament is written via the Jews. I still pray these ways and wonder about the development of such prayers and moral concepts to abide by that should continue to influence christianity, which absolutely has. Is this help only allowable if the recipient accepts our own religious beliefs and are we only allowed to help alongside those who solely share those beliefs?

 The church absolutely has an obligation to alleviate social ills such as poverty etc. It should definitely stand up against immorality and idolatry. Well, the reason we have the poor who are dying is due to idolatries of others that affect negatively those around him. So, the question is not that if we should not join together to fix this world through compassion, the question is if the church should join with "pagans" to help fix this world (is what I'm gathering from this discussion). This is why I'm wondering why christians are considering themselves "better" than their BROTHER who does not believe in Jesus. We are the same. Christ's conscience is in one but not in the other...or isn't it? The non-christian might be a better representation of what Christ preaches than His own follower. This is why I believe it is important to be careful making assumptions about the salvation of another. It is G-d who justifies. And if a prostitute were coming to help with Katrina and rebuild a home, a believer should not feel that it's beneath himself to pitch in and work alongside her. What is the goal? We often cut off our noses to spite our faces. 

 Avoiding worldliness doesn't mean making a hedge between "us" and another. The harbinger of protections against evil is Christ/The Father/The Holy Spirit and in His word, He never advised us to behave in such manner. We need to examine what is meant by "the world." I see nothing wrong with the organization and other such organizations to alleviate hunger through cooperation of people from all walks of life. The problem I see is nitpicking into the life of another. Sitting down at the feet of another, listening to his philosophies on life and emulating him is the problem, not working alongside him in the endeavor to alleviate suffering and pain.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Oct 17, 2011)

^^GH 

thank you, I gonna get through all that...

but no more comments to you from me on this matter, Ro 12:18 says; If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. (no pun intended)

I can do that...


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## Laela (Sep 4, 2012)




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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Sep 4, 2012)

“For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
   And the government will rest on His shoulders;
   And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
   Eternal Father,* Prince of Peace.” *(Isaiah 9:6)


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## Nice Lady (Sep 4, 2012)

and people who stay one in their hearts with him won’t keep on sinning. If they do keep on sinning, they don’t know Christ, and they have never seen him.

Children, don’t be fooled. Anyone who does right is good, just like Christ himself. Anyone who keeps on sinning belongs to the devil. He has sinned from the beginning, but the Son of God came to destroy all that he has done (1 John 3:6-8 CEV).


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## Poohbear (Sep 4, 2012)

Nice Lady said:


> and people who stay one in their hearts with him won’t keep on sinning. If they do keep on sinning, they don’t know Christ, and they have never seen him.
> 
> Children, don’t be fooled. Anyone who does right is good, just like Christ himself. Anyone who keeps on sinning belongs to the devil. He has sinned from the beginning, but the Son of God came to destroy all that he has done (1 John 3:6-8 CEV).


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## LucieLoo12 (Sep 5, 2012)

Nice Lady

. People never use this scripture! They always want to justify but thanks so much for this!!!


Nice Lady said:


> and people who stay one in their hearts with him won’t keep on sinning. If they do keep on sinning, they don’t know Christ, and they have never seen him.
> 
> Children, don’t be fooled. Anyone who does right is good, just like Christ himself. Anyone who keeps on sinning belongs to the devil. He has sinned from the beginning, but the Son of God came to destroy all that he has done (1 John 3:6-8 CEV).


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## auparavant (Sep 5, 2012)

L-rd have mercy...one year later, a moniker change to "Auparavant" and I still stand by my words 100%


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## Nice Lady (Sep 5, 2012)

LucieLoo12 said:


> Nice Lady
> 
> . People never use this scripture! They always want to justify but thanks so much for this!!!



Thanks. It is still the Word. I guess they just tell others that "their sin did cut" or "they couldn't forgive themselves." It is our job to help a person come to genuine repentance without shaming them. Unless they refuse to stop, then it needs to be brought to attention when they endanger others.


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## divya (Sep 6, 2012)

Such wonderful, humbling posts in this thread.



Guitarhero said:


> Remember, when Jesus calls us to the table, please know that there are going to be other Judas' there and Jesus called him the one He loved.  He didn't close the door to anyone as He is friend to all, like a brother.  It's up to the individual to answer the spirit call  but not up to us to judge another's walk.  But for grace...but for grace and we don't realize how close to hell each and every one of us are.  In His temple here on earth, all are invited and we sit side-by-side.  It's only a matter of a moment to accept.  Yet, He opens to the door to all His creation and He loves them no differently.  Believers should be painfully aware of their continuous wretchedness because He has the most mercy for the worst sinners.  The worse off you are spiritually, the more mercy there is available.  That should eternally humble all of us.  We're all brethern under His gift to the world...Hindu, Buddhist, Catholic, Jew, Pagan, Wiccan, Baptist, Presbyterian, even satanist.



This is such a beautiful post...but for grace! I understand your words regarding all of us being brethren to mean that all of humanity - every religion, creed, ethnicity - is in need of the Savior, and the Messiah died to save us all. 

"To God be the glory, great things He has done;
So loved He the world that He gave us His Son,
Who yielded His life an atonement for sin,
And opened the life gate that all may go in."


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Sep 6, 2012)

while I'm commanded to love everyone (and I do for the most part), I'm not related to everyone...


unless I'm misinterpreting these scriptures we are not all brethren: 

Matthew 12:46-50 (King James Version)

 46While he yet talked to the people, behold, *his mother and his brethren *stood without, desiring to speak with him. 

 47Then one said unto him, Behold, *thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee*. 

 48But he answered and said unto him that told him, *Who is my mother? and who are my brethren*? 

*49And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!* 

*50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.[/B]*


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Sep 6, 2012)

Here’s why I don’t believe that we are all children of God:

Matthew 13:38 (KJV)
38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but *the tares are the children of the wicked one*;

though this is a parable it's clear that there are children of God and children of the wicked one who is the Devil

Acts 13:9 (KJV)

9Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him, 10And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, *thou child of the devil*, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord? 11And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.

John 8:42
42Jesus said unto them,* If God were your Father*, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. *44Ye are of your father the devil,* and the lusts of your father ye will do.

John 8:47 (KJV)
47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because *ye are not of God*.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Sep 6, 2012)

our brothers, sisters, mother, father, uncle, aunties and cousins are those who do the will of the Father ...a harsh pill to swallow yes, but spiritually those who do the will of God are our relatives...


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## CoilyFields (Sep 6, 2012)

We have been adopted into God's family when we accept Jesus as our Lord and savior. We are made heirs and co-heirs with Christ. This is a specific family with a specific inheritance (salvation/the kingdom). Everyone is not my spiritual brother and sister because to be so one has to have been born again of incorruptable seed. 

Romans 8:17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Gal 4:7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.

Eph 3:6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.


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## Crown (Sep 21, 2012)

He/She is a *real* Christian! Based on what?

Mat. 7. 21 “*Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven*. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, *did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?*’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, *‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!*’

Only God knows the heart.
Only God knows His children. 

Mat. 20. 12 ‘*These  who were hired last worked only one hour*,’ they said, ‘and you have  made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’ 13  “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend.  Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go.* I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you*. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’
 16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

The lost son *was lost* like all of us, but he *was a child* and His FATHER cared about him.


Mat. 13. 24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among  the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
  27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
  28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
  “The servants asked him, ‘*Do you want us to go and pull them up?*’
  29 “‘*No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them*. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”


So, live by the 2 great commandments : love God and love your neighborhood, knowing that the Father is in control.

But, in congregation, we have to follow the rules of the Scriptures.


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## NaturallySweet73 (Sep 21, 2012)

Are we all Children of God?  

Absolutely not! Further, Buddist, Hindu, Buddhist, Catholic, Jew, Pagan, Wiccan, Baptist, Presbyterian, satanist can NOT be considered brothers or sisters unless they come through Jesus.  No man can come unto the father exept it by Jesus (John 14:6 Jesus's words). 



> Crown: He/She is a real Christian! Based on what?
> 
> Mat. 7. 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
> 
> ...




He/She is a real Christian! Based on what? 

The biggest way to know is by their love



> John 13:35 (KJV)
> 
> 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, *if ye have love* one to another.





> 1Jn 2:1  My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
> 1Jn 2:2  And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
> 1Jn 2:3  And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
> 1Jn 2:4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
> 1Jn 2:5  But whoso keepeth his word, *in him verily is the love of God perfected*: hereby know we that we are in him.





> Joh 15:10  If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
> Joh 15:11  These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
> Joh 15:12  This is my commandment, *That ye love one another, as I have loved you. *


Another is by they're fruits.

If we are confused the fruits will tell the story and as a believer in Christ and a follower, he has given us the ability to know through his word.  No we cannot see the heart, but we can see actions and those are what we are commanded to judge (Matthew 7:13-20)  That is the only way that we know who is who, and that is for our protection.  Yes, a true believer can mess up but there is a difference between willful sin or falling into sin.  Someone who does not belong to God will continue in sin and not seek to get out of it.  The greater body of believer or other brothers and sisters will then try to help them out Galatians 6:1. But that same person will rely on the Lord to abandon there problem and will not just live that way, they will eventually be free.

More scripture that will help us discern this:



> 1 John 3:7-10
> 
> 1Jn 3:7  Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
> 1Jn 3:8  He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
> ...





> 1 Corinthians 6: 9-10
> 
> (1Co 6:9)  Know ye not that *the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God*? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (1Co 6:10)  Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.





> Galations 5:19-21 19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that t*hey which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.*


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## auparavant (Sep 21, 2012)

NaturallySweet73 said:


> Are we all Children of God?
> 
> Absolutely not! Further, Buddist, Hindu, Buddhist, Catholic, Jew, Pagan, Wiccan, Baptist, Presbyterian, satanist can NOT be considered brothers or sisters unless they come through Jesus.  No man can come unto the father exept it by Jesus (John 14:6 Jesus's words).



NaturallySweet73

Could you clarify this?  You mean everybody in the world in general or just those religions/denominations in particular?


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## NaturallySweet73 (Sep 21, 2012)

auparavant said:


> @NaturallySweet73
> 
> Could you clarify this?  You mean everybody in the world in general or just those religions/denominations in particular?




Im saying that no one in the world can belongs to him unless they come through Jesus Christ.  

I mentioned all of those religions because it was mentioned by *Guitarhero *that all off of them are her brothers.  They are not my brothers or of the family of Christ if they do not come through him.  

In that group sited by Guitarhero are religions that are clearly antichrist and I didn't think that I needed to say it, because it pretty clear that a satanist(one who worships satan), for example,  is not going to worship Jesus Christ.  Im sorry if I didn't go deeper into my statement, but I didn't realize I needed to.  My mistake.


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## auparavant (Sep 22, 2012)

NaturallySweet73 said:


> Im saying that no one in the world can belongs to him unless they come through Jesus Christ.
> 
> I mentioned all of those religions because it was mentioned by *Guitarhero *that all off of them are her brothers.  They are not my brothers or of the family of Christ if they do not come through him.
> 
> In that group sited by Guitarhero are religions that are clearly antichrist and I didn't think that I needed to say it, because it pretty clear that a satanist(one who worships satan), for example,  is not going to worship Jesus Christ.  Im sorry if I didn't go deeper into my statement, but I didn't realize I needed to.  My mistake.




Thanks for clarifying....BTW, I'm "Guitarhero"  We don't have to agree on who we consider brothers in humanity and I totally respect your opinion.  I had a feeling you meant it the way you just explained it but wasn't sure.


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## Crown (Sep 23, 2012)

Let The Great I AM determine the paternity test.

And live by the two greats commandments:

Mc 12. 28 One of the teachers of the law  came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good  answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most  important?” 29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: *The Lord our God, the Lord is one.** 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.*’ 31 The second is this: ‘*Love your neighbor as yourself.*’

*There is no commandment greater than these.*”

32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “*You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.* 33 To  love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all  your strength, *and* to love your neighbor as yourself is more important  than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “*You are not far from the kingdom of God.*” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.


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## NaturallySweet73 (Sep 23, 2012)

..............................................................................


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Sep 24, 2012)

To be clear,  I am not questioning anyone's salvation, just providing information based on comments made that we are all God's children, thought I clarified on page one of this thread ...


Oh and I love all people, which includes people of different religions didn't think I needed to say that initially ...


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## Crown (Sep 29, 2012)

I did not post to answer to *you, *@Iwanthealthyhair67, but about the topic.
If it's not for you(whoever), it's for someone else.

BTW, there is no sufficiency in love.
It is always possible for a human being living in flesh(self) and not already in a glorified body to improve LOVE: Agapao(Law of God) and phileo(neighbor).


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## auparavant (Sep 29, 2012)

Crown said:


> ..., there is no *sufficiency* in love.
> It is always possible for a human being living in flesh(self) and not already in a glorified body to improve LOVE




I like that!!!


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## Laela (Jun 13, 2016)

What did Jesus die for? One oft-misquoted scripture is *John 3:16*... not read in its full context.

Yes, God loves us all..saved and unsaved, because we are his *creation*. Does God love the Atheist? Of course He does! 

*But don't stop at verse 16 - look at verses 17-18:*

_17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God._

The scriptures are very clear on who are the Children of God 

*Ephesians 2: *
_2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) 

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 *Not of works, lest any man should boast.*

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 *But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.*

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 *And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:*

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit._


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## beingofserenity (Aug 26, 2016)

Wow, confusing.


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## momi (Aug 27, 2016)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> our brothers, sisters, mother, father, uncle, aunties and cousins are those who do the will of the Father ...a harsh pill to swallow yes, but spiritually those who do the will of God are our relatives...



I am in agreement because scripture agrees.  We are all His creation yes - but not all His children.  Those who do His will are His children : S_o now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to God. 1 John 3:10 _


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## mensa (Aug 27, 2016)

momi said:


> *I am in agreement because scripture agrees.  We are all His creation yes - but not all His children.  Those who do His will are His children : So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to God. 1 John 3:10 *



Momi, this is the truth!


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## kanozas (Aug 27, 2016)

LONG post...   I'm providing background information with the question of "*What do you think of this...atheists can also go to heaven?"  *I feel I should include this in our catholic thread for anyone to discuss it there because it is sided with the catholic faith.  However, I don't want anything to be misconstrued as divisive.  Basically, what are your thoughts?

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a1.htm 

"definitions/discourse on 'atheism'"  
Catechism of the Catholic Church:_ *2124* The name "atheism" covers many very different phenomena. One common form is the practical materialism which restricts its needs and aspirations to space and time. Atheistic humanism falsely considers man to be "an end to himself, and the sole maker, with supreme control, of his own history."59 Another form of contemporary atheism looks for the liberation of man through economic and social liberation. "It holds that religion, of its very nature, thwarts such emancipation by raising man's hopes in a future life, thus both deceiving him and discouraging him from working for a better form of life on earth."60_
__________________________________________________________________________________
LINK

*Pope Francis says atheists can do good and go to heaven too! *

Pope Francis has good news for atheists. Jesus died and was raised for them as well. His redemptive embrace was for all, not just a chosen few.The choice to accept its reach is our own. The Holy Father was not teaching anything new. In fact, this hope that all who do not yet know God are not only capable of doing good - but will progress toward that knowledge of God by doing good - is ancient. The Church wants all men and women to be saved.

LOS ANGELES, CA (Catholic Online) - The Holy Father is full of surprises, born of true and faithful humility. On Wednesday he declared that all people, not just Catholics, are redeemed through Jesus, even atheists. 

However, he did emphasize there was a catch. Those people must still do good. In fact, it is in doing good that they are led to the One who is the Source of all that is good. In essence he simply restated the hope of the Church that all come to know God, through His Son Jesus Christ. 

Francis based his homily on the message of Christ to his disciples taken from the Gospel of Mark. Francis delivered his message by sharing a story of a Catholic who asked a priest if atheists were saved by Christ. 

"They complain," Francis said, "If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party, he cannot do good." He explained that Jesus corrected them, "Do not hinder him, he says, let him do good." 

The disciples, Pope Francis explained, "were a little intolerant," closed off by the idea of possessing the truth, convinced that "those who do not have the truth, cannot do good." "This was wrong... Jesus broadens the horizon." Pope Francis said, "The root of this possibility of doing good - that we all have - is in creation."

"Even them, everyone, we all have the duty to do good, Pope Francis said on Vatican Radio. 

"Just do good" was his challenge, "and we'll find a meeting point." 

Francis explained himself, "The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart, do good and do not do evil. All of us. 'But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.' Yes, he can... "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ, all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! 'Father, the atheists?' Even the atheists. Everyone!" We must meet one another doing good. 'But I don't believe, Father, I am an atheist!' But do good: we will meet one another there." 

Father James Martin, a Jesuit priest, told the Huffington Post, "Pope Francis is saying, more clearly than ever before, that Christ offered himself as a sacrifice for everyone. That's always been a Christian belief. You can find St. Paul saying in the First Letter to Timothy that Jesus gave himself as a 'ransom for all.' But rarely do you hear it said by Catholics so forcefully, and with such evident joy. And in this era of religious controversies, it's a timely reminder that God cannot be confined to our narrow categories."

Pope Francis is trying to deepen our understanding of the fullness of Christ's sacrifice and its reach, which extends to all men and women. We often fall into familiar ways of thinking that are closed. We divide ourselves into groups, forgetting that we are all children of God, identical, regardless of any divisions we establish for ourselves.We are also all called to the One who created us and, through His Son,is recreating us anew. He calls us to accept His salavation.  

The Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World (_Gaudium et Spes_) contains an important explanation of the phenomena referred to as 'Atheism' (See, GS #17-22). It is a very large term and we have to first examine what is meant when it is embraced by an individual to best understand the effect of the claim. 

The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains that "Since it rejects or denies the existence of God, atheism is a sin against the virtue of religion but the imputability of the offense can be significantly diminished in virtue of the intentions and the circumstances" (CCC#2125).

The Holy Father was not teaching anything new. In fact, this hope that all who do not yet know God are not only capable of doing good - but will progress toward that knowledge of God by doing good -  is ancient. On Good Friday we all pray:

_Let us pray also for those who do not believe in Christ,that, enlightened by the Holy Spirit,they, too, may enter on the way of salvation. Almighty ever-living God,grant to those who do not confess Christ that, by walking before you with a sincere heart, they may find the truth and that we ourselves, being constant in mutual love and striving to understand more fully the mystery of your life, may be made more perfect witnesses to your love in the world. Through Christ our Lord.
_
We are judged by a just God who will welcome us based on what we have done with what we knew. Those who do not know God will be judged on the good they have done and the values lived by, to paraphrase a quote oft attributed to the Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius. 

However, the most loving thing we can do for all men and women is recognize that they too hunger for the God who created them and then help them to find Him as He is fully and completely revealed in his Son Jesus Christ and the Church. That includes recognizing the good that they do and joining with them in the work. 

These latest comments are consistent with Pope Francis' efforts to reach out to people of other faiths and of no faith at all. By emphasizing our common bonds, our Holy Father breaks down artificial barriers so that we may see, and love, one another more clearly.


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## Divine. (Aug 28, 2016)

@kanozas  I'm not sure I agree with this article. Although we no longer are bound to the law, it was created to show us how sinful we are. If a person doesn't believe in a God or his word, how can he know what constitutes sin? How can he display the fruits of the spirit if he is operating under the flesh? Who is defining what doing good is? Jesus was the only good person that walked this earth. Doing good is almost the equivalent of following every law. But the bible says that no one who depends on the law is made right with God.

I understand what the pope is trying to say, but what I don't understand is how it aligns with scripture.


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## kanozas (Aug 29, 2016)

Divine. said:


> @momi I'm not sure I agree with this article. Although we no longer are bound to the law, it was created to show us how sinful we are.
> *
> w*ho is defining what doing good is? Jesus was the only good person that walked this earth. Doing good is almost the equivalent of following every law. But the bible says that no one who depends on the law is made right with God.
> 
> I understand what the pope is trying to say, but what I don't understand is how it aligns with scripture.





kanozas said:


> L
> 
> http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a1.htm



Jesus told us what doing good is:  feeding the poor, helping the orphans and widows, giving water to the thirsty, .  All people know what good is because that law is written on every man's heart.  We all have a conscience.  Just like we can perceive the sky and the sun in it, we can perceive what goodness is and we know when we are bad.  In addition, these are the twelve fruits of the Holy Spirit:


*The Twelve Fruits of the Holy Spirit  citation link*
1.  Charity
2.  Joy
3.  Peace
4.  Patience
5.  Kindness
6.  Goodness
7.  Long Suffering
8.  Mildness
9.  Faith
10.Modesty
11.Continence
12.Chastity

I don't want to get into too much of a personal experience but I was given two choices by the very L-rd Himself while sitting in the Blessed Sacrament (chapel or sanctuary when/where the monstrance containing the Host is diaplayed for adoration, being the very body and blood of Jesus in the Host itself) and quietly reciting from Psalms from my siddur.  He gave me two choices and said, "...whichever you choose, BE GOOD."  That has stayed with me all this time.  I've also come to realize that, according to our Catechism on the faith, that it is very true that G-d is the ultimate decider on who enters heaven and that, through no fault of his own, all men can enter heaven if they didn't know of Jesus and lived according to the truth they were given.  I believe it is #1817 (sorry, being lazy right now).  Just his past week, I went through some extremely trying times and in the end, Jesus is showing me His Mercy for all.  I've come to a deeper understanding of His grace and mercy.  We do know one thing, we enter through the door of Jesus but we do not know exactly how that happens for those who never knew Him to enter heaven according to His Will.  We just don't know.

In addition to this, I believe the narrow gate (at least, for me) is through a conscience fixated on Jesus as opposed to Orthodox Judaism because He is the "easier" way with lots of graces for good living.  This is a very short answer without a lot of elaboration on what I'm exactly talking about, I know, sorry for that.  But I just found this expression of Pope Francis enlightening and right on time with the situation I'm having and for me to set aside my thoughts and feelings to accept  a higher teaching on His grace and mercy (very personal...not saying others don't have such).  I hope that makes more sense.  I do not mean this as a catholic domination or anything.


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## Laela (Aug 29, 2016)

@Divine.  I hope this nugget helps:

As believers, we all want the fruit of the Spirit, but how can we know if we truly have it? Even unbelievers can display these qualities when conditions are positive. This nine-fold fruit of the Spirit is not what we _do_, but who we _are_, and *it is primarily on display in Christians when circumstances are unfavorable*. Two characteristics help us recognize these traits in our lives.

*Fruitful believers are not controlled by their environment*. Everyone experiences trials and pain, but those who are filled with the Spirit do not lose His fruit because of their situations. They keep their joy even when difficulties overwhelm. If someone speaks harshly, they respond with kindness. Because the Holy Spirit is in control, He is free to produce His fruit no matter what the circumstances are. Even though such believers may feel pain, anger, or a desire for revenge, they choose to trust the Lord to protect them and direct the outcome.

*Fruitful Christians recover quickly after a fall*. These believers are not perfect, but they are sensitive to the Spirit's conviction and are quick to return to the Lord in repentance. In fact, they are actually grateful for the correction and praise God, not only for revealing their weakness but also for drawing them back to obedience.

No one produces these amazing qualities in himself. Trying harder to be godly will never work. Character transformation occurs when we submit to God, giving Him complete control of our lives. Only then will the Spirit be free to produce fruit that remains even in the deepest, darkest storms.

_Taken from "__Looking for Fruit__" by In Touch Ministries (used by permission)._


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## Divine. (Aug 29, 2016)

@kanozas Sorry for mentioning the wrong person! This is is good information. I guess my perspective was good = behavior, not good = characteristics. I'm still a little iffy on the subject though.

You can do all the "good" things and still be sinful. For example, you can serve others, be kind, etc but engage in fornication. I don't know how God will judge us and I would never claim to. But I do think there is a difference between disbelief in the existence of God and not having any knowledge of God.

If doing good is all it takes to get into heaven (not having faith, serving God, etc.), is there really a purpose in any of us practicing Christianity? You don't have to answer this specifically. This is just me thinking out loud.


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## kanozas (Aug 29, 2016)

Divine. said:


> @kanozas Sorry for mentioning the wrong person! This is is good information. I guess my perspective was good = behavior, not good = characteristics. I'm still a little iffy on the subject though.
> 
> You can do all the "good" things and still be sinful. For example, you can serve others, be kind, etc but engage in fornication. I don't know how God will judge us and I would never claim to. But I do think there is a difference between disbelief in the existence of God and not having any knowledge of God.
> 
> If doing good is all it takes to get into heaven (not having faith, serving God, etc.), is there really a purpose in any of us practicing Christianity? You don't have to answer this specifically. This is just me thinking out load.



That's ok.  I didn't want Momi thinking, "Hey, wait a minute!!!"  LOL.  You have a good point but that is not what is being said, though.  If anything, it's humbling to know/think that we're all His children, equal.  His sacrifice made us all His kids.  Remember, there are diff. levels of meaning in scripture.  It's not all literal.  As I see it, those who are adopted by faith have a different relationship to Him and access to many graces that help us achieve sanctification.   It's not impossible to go to heaven for anyone.  The way was made.  Even the greatest christians are still sinners, even if not the big sins.

One reason I threw in the definition on what atheism is was to expound upon it.  It's not always someone who actively rejects G-d but sometimes, it's someone whose spiritual sense is very flawed and they cannot sense His existence.  Such a person is not directly denying Him.  They have no concept and no spiritual sense of Him.  It's a lot to think about.  I was taken a bit aback myself in reading this article.  And if true, then that makes His gift of salvation all the more incredible and for me, breaks down these walls of religious separation we like to construct, making our souls rest in a more precarious situation and totally depended upon His mercy, grace, love and that we develop a trust deeper than any other.  At the end, we HOPE, keeping us humbled and on our toes.  We should have faith, trust and confidence yet...    He truly wants no one to perish.  We can absolutely, though, reject Him, christian and non.


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