# The Christian Left...



## SummerSolstice (Mar 29, 2012)

Here is their website. http://www.thechristianleft.org/ 
What do you think? I was intrigued because I consider myself to be somewhat moderate and I dont really identify with the Republicans, just because they skew the WORD to push their greedy agendas... but I digress...
I want to share this website and facebook group with my friends but I'm having a hard time determining what their doctrine is on that site.


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## Galadriel (Mar 29, 2012)

SummerSolstice said:


> Here is their website. http://www.thechristianleft.org/
> What do you think? I was intrigued because I consider myself to be somewhat moderate and I dont really identify with the Republicans, just because they skew the WORD to push their greedy agendas... but I digress...
> I want to share this website and facebook group with my friends but I'm having a hard time determining what their doctrine is on that site.



Man, oh man...where do I start (thanks for the link, btw!)

The "Christian Left" website/organization (by glancing at their page) appears to be a group of Christians who espouse "Leftist" or "Liberal" political and social viewpoints--and bits of other things.

website statements below are in *blue* and my responses in *black*.
Bolds and underlines are for emphasis.

Please note, there will be a bit of sarcasm and tongue-in-cheek comments on my part. 

----------------------------------

*We’re Christians. We’re Liberal. We make no apologies.*  In fact Jesus' ways are “Liberal.” That’s why He was killed. The  Pharisees and the Sadducees were the conservatives of their time.

People have tried making Jesus a "political Messiah"--certain followers in 33 AD who wanted an earthly Messiah who would defeat the Roman Empire and take back Jerusalem, the Liberation Theologists of the 20th Century, etc.

Jesus Christ is not a political Messiah, and I reject that He was the standard-bearer for modern liberals and the Pharisees and Saducees stood in the place of modern conservatives. Jesus wasn't crucified because He was "liberal" (and I'd like to see their definition of "liberal" for Jesus here), Christ was killed because 1) It was in the Divine Plan. No Sacrifice, no Redemption 2) Those who rejected Him did so out of fear of losing their earthly power/prestige, or fear of having their sins exposed, or of their love of darkness rather than the Light. 

Holding the view that Christ was some type of social-political Messiah with a cool spiritual ideal is what leads people to start proclaiming that "Well, Christ REALLY didn't come to die on the Cross...He really came to teach us how to live, and they just rejected Him and it turned out that way."

See, it wasn’t just Jesus’ birth, death, and resurrection that matter.  It was his life too! The life he lived is a huge part of the deal, and  he asked us to do a few things if you look at his words. Not only is  what Jesus said the Word of God, but what Jesus DID is also the Word of  God. Looking at the life of Jesus we see that Jesus made room for *those cut off from the rest of society.* Jesus put a name and a face on all who had been *forgotten or pushed aside*, even the dead. Jesus called us to *carry our cross daily and follow him.* That’s what Social Justice means. 

A noble goal indeed. God expects compassion and mercy of us. In the early Church, this was especially true because the ancient Romans looked upon forgiveness, mercy, etc. as weaknesses and undesirable qualities. When they left their infants in the streets to die, Christians would take them in and care for them. Christians fed the hungry, and cared for the sick and downtrodden. Christians started the University system and hospitals in the West. 

Scripture says that God heals the broken heart, and I think that's beautiful. If God cares about us with such perfect love and compassion, then as His children we ought to do the same .

The Christian Left holds that social justice, renunciation of power,  humility, forgiveness, and private observation of prayer (as opposed to  publicly mandated prayer), are mandated by the Gospel (*Matthew 6:5-6*). The Bible contains accounts of *Jesus repeatedly advocating for the poor and outcast over the wealthy, powerful, and religious.* The Christian Left maintains that such a stance is relevant and important.

"Social Justice" is a political activity and ideology, not theology or moral virtue. "Renunciation of power" is meaningless because power in and of itself is not evil (abuse of power is). Private prayer is good, but Christians are also called to pray publicly (i.e., worshiping at church). Yes, Jesus cared for the poor and outcast, but His criticism of the wealthy and powerful wasn't because they possessed wealth and power--it was because they loved these things more than God. Ah, and there we go, "religious" (I'm not _religious_, I'm spiritual!). Nothing wrong with being religious.

The Christian Left sometimes differs from other Christian political  groups on issues including homosexuality. This is often not a matter of  different religious ideas, but one of focus — viewing the prohibitions  against killing, or the criticism of concentrations of wealth, as far  more important than social issues emphasized by the religious right,  such as opposition to active homosexuality. In this case, similar to  philosophies expressed by writers such as C.S. Lewis, these members of  the Christian Left believe homosexual sex to be overemphasized when  compared with issues relating to social justice, or even matters of  sexual morality involving heterosexual sex. *Bottom Line: We  welcome ALL to their place at God’s table, just as they are. All means  ALL. No exceptions. We reject all attempts to define our Faith by the  two wedge issues of Gay Marriage and Abortion.

*Now we're getting into the REAL reason the Christian Left is set against those "rule obsessed religious people." They do not accept that homosexuality is sinful and that we should resist legitimizing gay marriage. Note (on the site) that they are against war (which they call militarism) but they say they choose to put "less emphasis" on abortion (isn't abortion one of the worst forms of unjustified killing or murder?).

The Christian Left doesn’t get uptight about the same things as their  right-wing brothers and sisters. Lefties tend to accept that we’re all  trapped in the *human condition*, that we all struggle, and that *we’re all sinners.*  They tend to focus on behaviors that Jesus focused on while he was here  in body -- things like hypocrisy, organized oppression, exorbitant  greed, self-righteousness, judgmentalism, selfishness, abuse of power,  violence, etc. 

While Our Lord definitely addressed these issues, He is also the only person in the Bible to preach/reference Hell around 15 times. I'm curious as to why the only person to speak about Hell the most in His teachings are suddenly ignored in order to "focus" on rich people and the attempt to equate conservatives/righties with the Pharisees. I see this as nothing more than an attempt to justify Christian Leftism because there are so many moral and doctrinal problems with this ideology. In other words, "Christian Left" ideology is incompatible in several ways with the Gospel, with Scripture, and the teachings of many Christian churches.

*Matthew 22:34-40* Hearing that Jesus had silenced the  Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the  law, tested him with this question: “Teacher, which is the greatest  commandment in the Law?” *Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God  with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’  This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it:  ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on  these two commandments.” 

*You can't love God without keeping His commandments. Love is tied in with Justice. Morality is ordered toward the love of God. Their interpretation of this passage is an attempt to divorce morality from love of God and service of God.

The Christian Left *rejects exclusivity.* We believe that  John the Baptist wasn’t kidding when he proclaimed the coming of Jesus  saying, “and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.”  We firmly  believe that *all means ALL.* The exclusionary gospel of the Christian Right is foreign to us.  We do not recognize it.  *Jesus came to set the captives free*  and announce the arrival of the peaceable kingdom of God where ALL are  welcomed. Like a member of The Christian Left (Shannon Maynard) has  said, one of our favorite words in the Bible is *“whosoever.”*

In other words, they believe the Gospel isn't the only way to salvation. Oh, shame on those "religious" hypocrites who teach otherwise.

Unfortunately in this country today, we have a sort of spiritual revival  of the Pharisees --people who don’t want to practice love, grace, or  compassion, but would rather try to *bury people under legalistic demands that they themselves aren’t capable of keeping.* 

::Raising my hand:: Let me guess who they're going to define these people as?

Culturally crusading right-wing Christians have substituted the Gospel of Jesus Christ for a Gospel of Morality.

Because Jesus and morality don't mix, haven't ya heard?

 *They've  made it more about following rules than loving God (having a  relationship with Christ) and loving their fellow brothers and sisters.   This is unacceptable.* 

Sounds familiar?

They are drained by the shame [the Gospel of Morality] produces. Far too  many are repulsed by this false religious system they can't live up to.

The Gospel is the Gospel, and it is one. You can't divide it. We are called to acts of Justice and Charity, *and* acts of righteousness. The most charitable thing we can do for people is to lead them to Christ so that their souls may be saved. This cannot be compromised, diluted, or reworked as spiritual Marxism.


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## Crown (Mar 29, 2012)

Modern days Christianity!

Rev. 3 : 14 “To the angel of the church in *Laodicea *write: *These are the words of the Amen*, the faithful and true witness, *the ruler of God’s creation*.

15 I know your deeds, that *you are neither cold nor hot*. *I wish you were either one or the other!*

19 *Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline*. So be earnest and repent.

 22 *Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches*.”


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## SummerSolstice (Mar 29, 2012)

http://www.facebook.com/TheChristianLeft/posts/377439695611507

This is their facebook group... I posted this comment and look at the replies. VERRRRRRY Interesting.


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## Galadriel (Mar 29, 2012)

SummerSolstice said:


> http://www.facebook.com/TheChristianLeft/posts/377439695611507
> 
> This is their facebook group... I posted this comment and look at the replies. VERRRRRRY Interesting.



 Whoa, they are, huh?


Quote: "We tend to emphasize sins  that hurt other people--especially MILLIONS of other people--such as  warfare, greed, failing to help the poor and the sick, etc., because  Jesus himself emphasized these. We deemphasize sexual sins because they  weren't important to Jesus."

Quote: "...speaking for myself...I do  not believe "being" homosexual is a sin. Nor do I believe that sex  between consenting adults is inherently a sin. We are sexual beings, and  I do not believe that sex is bad or dirty. I do believe..."


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## SummerSolstice (Mar 29, 2012)

They're very upset with me LOL 

"@[SummerSolstice]; You need to take responsibility for your own attitude toward anyone who is different from you. You are trying to justify your own bigotry by blaming it on god and/or the bible.

I can't believe god separates us like dirty laundry ... Because of our color or our 'abnormal' way of life. We are all gods children and your attempt to divide us is on you, not the bible."



eta: took out my real name


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## Galadriel (Mar 29, 2012)

SummerSolstice said:


> They're very upset with me LOL
> 
> "@[SummerSolstice]; You need to take responsibility for your own attitude toward anyone who is different from you. You are trying to justify your own bigotry by blaming it on god and/or the bible.
> 
> ...



SummerSolstice, see, there you go being a hypocritical Pharisee  
(apparently besides being rich, that's the only sin they believe in)


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## SummerSolstice (Mar 29, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> @SummerSolstice, see, there you go being a hypocritical Pharisee
> (apparently besides being rich, that's the only sin they believe in)



Ugh there are over 63,000 people in this group! Are that many people lost  this is so sad!!!!

I wish I could fix it I keep going back and forth with these people and its like talking to a brick wall.
Now someone in there said I'm a bigot for witnessing... Why is "Christian" in the title of the group if you don't believe in witnessing?


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## Laela (Mar 29, 2012)

Don't let them discourage you!


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## SummerSolstice (Mar 29, 2012)

Laela did you see my pm?  I think that their intentions are for the best but they came down on me hard


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## Shimmie (Mar 29, 2012)

SummerSolstice said:


> Laela did you see my pm?  I think that their intentions are for the best but they came down on me hard



Unfortunately, they are mislead and they are choosing to mislead others with a false doctrine.   Their intentions are actually rebellious against what Gods says not to do.   They want to follow their rules not Gods.    
They're not Christians .....


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## Crown (Mar 29, 2012)

Stay in the Word.
Abide in Him.

2 Tim. 3 : 12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 
13 while *evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived*. 
14  But as *for you, continue in what you have learned and have become  convinced of*, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15  and how from infancy you have known *the Holy Scriptures, which are able  to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus*. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful *for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness*, 17 so that *the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped* for every good work.

Jude 1 : 22 Be merciful to those who doubt; 23  save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy,  mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.
24  *To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before  his glorious presence without fault and with great joy*— 25  to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority,  through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore!  Amen.


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## Shimmie (Mar 29, 2012)

SummerSolstice said:


> They're very upset with me LOL
> 
> "@[SummerSolstice]; You need to take responsibility for your own attitude toward anyone who is different from you. You are trying to justify your own bigotry by blaming it on god and/or the bible.
> 
> ...



Hey Love... I wouldn't lose sleep over their comments.     Sooner than later, they will have to take responsibility for their lack of respect for the Truth which is written in God's Word.  

Of course they are going to 'attack' you and make you the person in error.  They are not Christians.     They have their 'own' God and it's not the Lord Jesus Christ.   

Just keep praying for them; for their deliverance.   If they 'love' God they will not try and 'change' Him.  They will accept His Truth in it's fullness.   They will follow God in his Truth and Fullness, they will forsake all evil and follow the Truth and not justify sin which they have chosen to live in.     They will believe God and not themselves; as they have become those who have become their own god, instead of Jesus as their Lord and Truth.


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## Shimmie (Mar 29, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> Whoa, they are, huh?
> 
> 
> Quote: "We tend to emphasize sins  that hurt other people--especially MILLIONS of other people--such as  warfare, greed, failing to help the poor and the sick, etc., because  Jesus himself emphasized these. We deemphasize sexual sins because they  weren't important to Jesus."
> ...



Whoa, is right.   This is a group of those who are 'Justifiers'.   They love the sin they are in and they are defacing the honour of God by deflecting tactics which are smoke screens.  Such as they want to help people, the poor the sick, they don't want to hurt people.... etc...    Pure and total 'smoke screens' used to deflect their sexual sin that they wish to live in.      

They need to leave God out of it; for God is no where in any of this confusion.


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## Shimmie (Mar 29, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> Man, oh man...where do I start (thanks for the link, btw!)
> 
> The "Christian Left" website/organization (by glancing at their page) appears to be a group of Christians who espouse "Leftist" or "Liberal" political and social viewpoints--and bits of other things (website statements in blue).
> 
> ...



Galadriel...

Thanks Gala... :thanks: for posting the truth here.

May I ask a favour?    When you have a moment, can you define your comments and note them as yours [the Truth] from theirs [deception]? 

This is vital what you have shared.    And I simply want there to absolutely no mistake by anyone who comes across this thread in the future, which comments are theirs and which are yours, for yours stands out as the Truth.

ETA:  I 'see' it   Thanks so much for making the distinction in your comments vs theirs...


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## Crown (Mar 30, 2012)

I think we don't have to say : they are not Christians.
Laodicea is seen as a part of the Church (to be corrected).
But concerning doctrines, we have to discern the truth from the false.

Let's strive to be like Philadelphia and not Laodicea.

Rev. 3 :  7 “To the angel of the church in *Philadelphia *write:These  are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David.  What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.

8 I  know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one  can shut. I know that you have little strength, *yet you have kept my  word and have not denied my name*.9  I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be  Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall  down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.

10  *Since you have kept my command to endure patiently*, I will also keep  you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to  test the inhabitants of the earth. 

11 I am coming soon. *Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown*. 

12  *The one who is victorious* I will make a pillar in the temple of my God.  Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God  and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming  down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new  name.

13 *Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches*.


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## Shimmie (Mar 30, 2012)

Crown said:


> *I think we don't have to say : they are not Christians.*




They're not...  

homosexuality?  gay marriage? cohabitation without marriage? It's a cult.

It's smoked screened by 'good works'.    Anyone can perform good works.  Anthiests do so everyday, with or without tax breaks.


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## Crown (Mar 30, 2012)

Shimmie said:


> They're not...
> 
> homosexuality?  gay marriage? cohabitation without marriage? It's a cult.
> 
> It's smoked screened by 'good works'.    Anyone can perform good works.  Anthiests do so everyday, with or without tax breaks.



We can agree to disagree!

Maybe it's just semantics, but I tend to not judge who is in hell or in heaven, who is Christian and who is not.
God is The Judge!
All we can *? *: their fruits. Not good at all!

Let's take the parable of the lost son : he was Lost, but he was Son.
He did not have the deeds of a son, but he was a son.

Luke 15 : 20 So he got up and went to his father. “But  while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled  with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him  and kissed him.
 
17 “When  he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants  have food to spare, and here I am starving to death!18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you.19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’

 21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

 22 “But the father said to his servants... Let’s have a feast and celebrate.24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.


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## Shimmie (Mar 30, 2012)

Crown said:


> We can agree to disagree!
> 
> Maybe it's just semantics, but I tend to not judge who is in hell or in heaven, who is Christian and who is not.
> God is The Judge!
> ...



Crown, this is a group for people to stay away from.  Their teachings are 'away' from Christ not towards Him.  They do not encourage repentance; but exceptance of any lifestyle and they cover it up by over emphazing 'good works', feeding the poor, hungry, etc.   

Christianity is about repentence.   This 'Left' ministry is not repentant.  

What is your point regarding the parable of the Prodical Son which is about the 90 and 9 whom God will leave (for they are with Him) to go after the one who has left / wandered astray and lost his way.   It speaks of the great and merciful love of God to go after that one / in this case to not give up on that one.     The son 'came to himself'... he repented of his foolishness and rebellion and acknowledged that he was wrong.   He humbled himself to return to his father, even to the point of living as a servant, he was humbled to admit his error/his sin and to live in right standing.  

What your point in sharing this parable [that everyone knows] regarding this cult which teaches *against* holiness, *against* being right with God, with a smoke screen which encourages good works to bring about salvation,  'good works' of which no man can boast ... 'good works' which will not get anyone into Heaven.

Important Note:  I apologize if my 'tone' appears harsh.   It's not...   I have no oughts against you.  I mean this sincerely.


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## Crown (Mar 30, 2012)

Shimmie said:


> Crown, this is a group for people to stay away from.  Their teachings are 'away' from Christ not towards Him.  They do not encourage repentance; but exceptance of any lifestyle and they cover it up by over emphazing 'good works', feeding the poor, hungry, etc.
> 
> Christianity is about repentence.   This 'Left' ministry is not repentant.
> 
> ...



Shimmie, don't be mad at me!
I don't know them!

If they are a cult, I don't know!
Some say SDA, Jehovah witnesses... are cults.
Some say Catholics are not Christians.

My point : it's not to me to judge who is Christian or who is not Christian.

But, for sure : they are wrong!


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## Crown (Mar 30, 2012)

Shimmie said:


> What your point in sharing this parable [*that everyone knows*] regarding this cult which teaches *against* holiness, *against* being right with God, with a smoke screen which encourages good works to bring about salvation,  'good works' of which no man can boast ... 'good works' which will not get anyone into Heaven.



By the way, as Christians constantly searching for the truth as the Bereans did (Acts 17), we don't have to believe in the _everyone knows that_.

My daughter was complaining: why do we have to read the Old Testament every year? Just one time is enough, the New Testament is more interesting.
And two days after, when reading in Leviticus :
 Now I understand Acts 2! The Israelites can only celebrate the feast at Jerusalem.

We have to constantly remember the scriptures and live by the Word.

Each time we read the scriptures, even what we _already know_, we find spiritual food.


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## Shimmie (Mar 30, 2012)

Crown said:


> Shimmie, don't be mad at me!
> I don't know them!
> 
> If they are a cult, I don't know!
> ...



I'm not mad at you... I purposely made that clear in my post above.  When topics such as these arise, I go hard on the topic and it often appears that I'm going hard on the individual who is posting.    

I appreciate you, always did.  Your word knowledge is explosive and it's needed; especially for those of that group who are reading this thread (and they are indeed reading this forum to the point of 'quoting' us. ... ).   

I also respect your stance to not 'call them out'.   

We're not in disagreement [which in forum format means to argue], instead we simply do not share the same views about this group.  

In total peace, I'll leave it at that.


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## Shimmie (Mar 30, 2012)

Crown said:


> By the way, as Christians constantly searching for the truth as the Bereans did (Acts 17), we don't have to believe in the _everyone knows that_.
> 
> My daughter was complaining: why do we have to read the Old Testament every year? Just one time is enough, the New Testament is more interesting.
> And two days after, when reading in Leviticus :
> ...



You're absolutely right.   

Each time we read God's Word, we receive a new meaning to each scripture that we've read times over.  God's Word is 'quick'... 'alive' which means it gives us 'New Life' each time we partake of it.   It is perpetual, unending, a revolving cycle which takes us from one level to the next.


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## Galadriel (Mar 30, 2012)

Crown, I definitely understand where you're coming from. I think what Shimmie means (and I'd agree with her) is that while many members of that organization are individual Christians (who unfortunately teach/believe heresy), that the organization as an organization isn't a truly Christian one.





Crown said:


> We can agree to disagree!
> 
> Maybe it's just semantics, but I tend to not judge who is in hell or in heaven, who is Christian and who is not.
> God is The Judge!
> ...


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## SummerSolstice (Mar 30, 2012)

Crown said:


> By the way, as Christians constantly searching for the truth as the Bereans did (Acts 17), we don't have to believe in the _everyone knows that_.
> 
> My daughter was complaining: why do we have to read the Old Testament every year? Just one time is enough, the New Testament is more interesting.
> And two days after, when reading in Leviticus :
> ...



Crown Hi friend!

During the discussion the members of the group were telling me that Jesus didn't "pay attention" or "emphasize" sexual sin while he was here. There was a bishop in the conversation who was saying these things. There was also a gay man who told me that I was a bigot for witnessing. THere was also a woman who was saying that expressing sexual love for anyone regardless of who they are was not an issue. I guess that means children and animals too? Who knows where they would draw the line... there wasn't one...

We can't say whether or not these men will go to hell, but I was hoping that I wasn't going to be bamboozled when I joined the group. It turns out that I was. I was called a bigot and a wolf in sheeps clothing for saying that cohabitation and homosexuality were sins. 
I never said they would go to hell for those sins. I even proclaimed that salvation was free to all, regardless of their choices, as long as they accepted Jesus as their savior.
I am also starting to understand that people who promote these sins without feeling any guilt at all might not be saved.

I was telling them that I would LOVE to live with my boyfriend, but it is wrong to do so... they jumped on me for that too!

So IMO, this type of group should be avoided. I am also reconsidering my alignment with liberals and democrats. I am not so sure about the republican party either, but I am seeing that all of these people are confused, sinners, and looking for justifications for their actions.

I would have even felt bad for them if they admitted to their feelings. I want to live with my boyfriend because I love him and I don't want to be away from him. But those are selfish feelings and I have to acknowledge that. God doesn't approve of certain things because they lead to consequences. 

It doesn't feel good, but as a Christian you have to be able to discern when sin is sin, especially in your own life. This is not to judge, it is only for obedience, and honoring Christ with your life. 
Hope that helps.


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## Shimmie (Mar 30, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> Crown, I definitely understand where you're coming from. I think what Shimmie means (and I'd agree with her) is that while many members of that organization are individual Christians (who unfortunately teach/believe heresy), that the organization as an organization isn't a truly Christian one.



Thanks Galadriel... 

I have to be honest.  I take a very strong issue with those who wear Christian labels, only to teach and live the very opposite of Christianity.   I've learned through life that just because a person says "Jesus" or labels themselves Chrisitian, or reads the Bible or goes to Church, that it is quite deceptive.    I have no problem calling them out, from the LOA's, to the Left's who refuse to acknowledge what's right.   I'm calling them out.  

Right now, there are gay churches on the rise. This Left organization is a 'gay' church with it's supporters.     They're not fooling anybody.   

Disclaimer:  I'm not calling them 'bad' people.  They're just not fooling anyone, that's all.  It's a gay alliance and they've made it quite clear. 

We had a thread here recently where a gay pastor was interviewed and well received by 'Lexi' (a professed Christian) on the 'Church Chanel' and this 'pastor' was married to his gay partner.  

This gay pastor has a 'cult' following.  He has a grand following of transexuals, transvestites, a totality of gender confusion, displaced gender and sexual identity who need *deliverance not tolerance*.    

*Instead*, he is misleading those who refuse to repent and acknowledge that homosexuality is a sin.  Instead of repentance, he (among others like him) have chosen to rebel against the Word of God, and preach their own gospel which *eliminates* repentance, let alone acknowledging that homosexuality is sin and taking it to the heights and degrees of inducing the lifestyle into the Church (not just society, but the Church) as normal.  

They are deceiving many and recruiting followers who are choosing to rebel against the Word of God.  

This _Christian Left _organization has chosen the right name for themselves for they have most assuredly '*Left*' the pure Ministry of Christianity...which is repentance of all sins.  

Jesus didn't condemn, but neither did He condone, for yet He did not say, 'Go _and sin no more'_ to those whom He encountered in sin.   As for this 'Christian Left' oraganization, they have not done so and neither do they intend to; it is written in their hearts that they do not acknowledge sin.   Yet... their feel 'good works' are all that is needed.  

What happens when they don't feel like doing good works?  They wake up tomorrow morning or the next and do not feel like being a 'good person'?   They become tired one day of going the extra mile?  Giving the extra dollar to feed someone hungry; helping someone who is sick and weary?    

I guess they've lost their salvation...   

Truly this is another counterfeit ministry.   A counterfeit bearing the name of Jesus Christ with a stickie note which has no lasting power of it's own, meaning their 'works'.   

Unless it's called of God.. it's lead by satan.  

_In Lucifer’s fallen state he was still known as a light bringer, daystar and a son of the morning. These are all counterfeits to the real thing.  We are the genuine and when we become an early riser to command the morning and capture the day, we displace the devil._ 

Isaiah 14:12


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## SummerSolstice (Mar 30, 2012)

LOL right Shimmie...
my sister was like... so they're the Christians... That left... LOLOL

It just seemed like they were like WOOOHOOO SIN!!! 







oh look... theres other people doing "worse" things to other people, so my sin is ok too!!!

Oh, and PS. the other religions are fine too. If thats the case, why even have beliefs?

For me, this is just a lesson... too often I have my own justifications... I have to get better at that.


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## Shimmie (Mar 30, 2012)

SummerSolstice said:


> LOL right Shimmie...
> my sister was like... so they're the Christians... That left... LOLOL
> 
> It just seemed like they were like WOOOHOOO SIN!!!
> ...



Whenever I buy loose strawberries, cherries, or grapes... etc..   I will literally stand there and pick and choose which ones I want to place in that plastic bag and purchase.    And you can believe that I am the UE... the Ultimate UE .. the Pain in the Derrierre... 'picky'.     

However, we can't do that with God's Word.  We can't pick and choose what we want.   It's all or nothing.   We have to, at the very least, acknowledge that when the Bible says it's wrong than that's what it  is... it's wrong.   I can't justify it.   I have to simply admit that it's wrong and I've chosen to do it, as wrong as it may be.    

It amazes me that 'these organizations' just skipped over this OR they come up with the most bizarre explanations.     

They love talking about the love of Jesus, but it's distraction, a deflecting of admitting to what is sin.   This mess / actually a lie that Jesus never addressed homosexuality.    

Welll, Did he have to?  Was it necessary for Jesus to talk about it?  Jesus made the definition of marriage QUITE CLEAR.    NO where in His Ministry did Jesus condone nor did He give credence to gay marriage or any type of gay relationship.    

As a matter of fact, he called out a gay person.  Oh yes he did!   He called out King Herod.     

In Luke chapter 13 ... Jesus was going about, doing His Father's business, healing the sick, casting out demons, preaching the truth to the masses... and was suddenly approached by the Pharisees with a warning that He better up and leave... least He be killed [_ordered dead_] by King Herod.   

_The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee. _  --- Luke 13:31

*Sidebar Moment: *  I have to interject here...  :woohoo2:   :woohoo2:    Jesus was NOT intimidated...

*Jesus -- without fear and trembling -- without a stutter -- replied quite emphatically the following:*

_And He said unto them, _ 

*Go ye, and tell that fox *_  {"the effeminate one"}, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected._  -----   Luke 13:32

*Jesus made it clear about marriage...*

And He --- JESUS --- answered and said unto them, *Have ye not read, * *that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,*  ----- Matthew 19:4 


*and Jesus said,* 

'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH '?   ---- Matthew 19:5 

-------------

What are people who say that Jesus never addressed the definition of marriage and homosexuality missing?    

Matthew 19:4-5 is Crystalized; Even Jesus, Himself has asked:

_Have ye not read... ?  _

What parts of their comprehension skills have ceased to recognize and acknowledge it is clearly written and from the heart and mouth of Jesus that marriage has been from the beginning and created by God, between *a man and a woman.    *

Cults bring about this type of heresy and foolishness.   Anything to justify why they choose to do what they do.   

If folks want to sin just sin.  But stop lying on God ... Just Stop!  Stop lying to people, but trying to place a stickie note labeled Christian on sin.   Stop lying on Jesus just to justify being gay.   Just do it and call it what it is.  Sin.    How hard is that?    Stop creating churches and lying that God is there when He is surely not there.   

Repentance, turning away from the sin is the only option.  

Praise God!

------------------

  Hey Little Summer.    I'm not angry.  Just putting it out there, that's all.    

For you Little Sister...  :blghug:

*ETA:*  I read the comments they 'the Left'  addressed to you on their facebook page.   My posts in this thread have been reflecting my response to their comments.   They've since made the fb page unaccessible unless it's 'liked'.  

So much for me clicking their 'like' feature.


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## Crown (Mar 30, 2012)

Please, I don’t want to debate.
I am not talking about sin or not.

I just don’t understand why some Christians think they have to categorize others:
She is in hell -  He is in heaven – They are Christians – They are not Christians…

Tell me: Is The United Church a Christian church?
http://www.united-church.ca/exploring/marriage
http://www.united-church.ca/exploring/orientation/resources

They think so!

It’s not my business to put someone, even an organization, in a label/group or not!

If someone says : I am a Christian, it's not my business to say : no you are not! But, I can see that you don't act like one, you don't believe what the scriptures teach...

All I can say : They are wrong! Wake up!


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## Crown (Mar 30, 2012)

SummerSolstice said:


> @Crown Hi friend!
> 
> During the discussion the members of the group were telling me that Jesus didn't "pay attention" or "emphasize" sexual sin while he was here. There was a bishop in the conversation who was saying these things. There was also a gay man who told me that I was a bigot for witnessing. THere was also a woman who was saying that expressing sexual love for anyone regardless of who they are was not an issue. I guess that means children and animals too? Who knows where they would draw the line... there wasn't one...
> 
> ...



I totally agree with you, SummerSolstice

Let me repeat it with you :

*this type of group should be avoided*


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## Crown (Mar 30, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> Crown, I definitely understand where you're coming from. I think what Shimmie means (and I'd agree with her) is that while many members of that organization are individual Christians (who unfortunately teach/believe heresy), that the organization as an organization isn't a truly Christian one.



@Galadriel

You are Catholic, some believe that you are not a true Christian.
You are a Jehovah witness, some believe that you are not a true Christian.
...

...

Again, not my business!


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## Galadriel (Mar 30, 2012)

Crown said:


> @Galadriel
> 
> You are Catholic, some believe that you are not a true Christian.
> You are a Jehovah witness, some believe that you are not a true Christian.
> ...



Crown, I hope my tone isn't coming off as confrontational (that is not my intention). I understand that you're saying we can't judge anyone's soul (e.g., "He's going to Hell" or "He's in Hell"). However we can and should judge *outward* actions and words, especially when they contradict or deny what Christ and the Apostles have passed down to us.

The Christian Left can't have it both ways. They can't proclaim to believe in Jesus as Lord but also proclaim that He is not the only means of salvation and the Bible is not literal. They can't decry greed or wealth as sins, but say abortion and gay marriage aren't a big deal. They are picking and choosing what they want to believe, and in some instances  denying the very foundations of Christian theological and moral doctrine.


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## Crown (Mar 30, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> @Crown, I hope my tone isn't coming off as confrontational (that is not my intention). I understand that you're saying we can't judge anyone's soul (e.g., "He's going to Hell" or "He's in Hell"). However we can and should judge *outward* actions and words, especially when they contradict or deny what Christ and the Apostles have passed down to us.
> 
> The Christian Left can't have it both ways. They can't proclaim to believe in Jesus as Lord but also proclaim that He is not the only means of salvation and the Bible is not literal. They can't decry greed or wealth as sins, but say abortion and gay marriage aren't a big deal. They are picking and choosing what they want to believe, and in some instances  denying the very foundations of Christian theological and moral doctrine.



Did I say the opposite?
I don't think so!

I am done!


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## Galadriel (Mar 30, 2012)

Crown said:


> Did I say the opposite?
> I don't think so!
> 
> I am done!



erplexed Maybe we're misunderstanding each other on some point.


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## Shimmie (Mar 30, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> Crown, I hope my tone isn't coming off as confrontational (that is not my intention). I understand that you're saying we can't judge anyone's soul (e.g., "He's going to Hell" or "He's in Hell"). However we can and should judge *outward* actions and words, especially when they contradict or deny what Christ and the Apostles have passed down to us.
> 
> *The Christian Left can't have it both ways. They can't proclaim to believe in Jesus as Lord but also proclaim that He is not the only means of salvation and the Bible is not literal. They can't decry greed or wealth as sins, but say abortion and gay marriage aren't a big deal. They are picking and choosing what they want to believe, and in some instances  denying the very foundations of Christian theological and moral doctrine.      *



@the bolded... You're speaking the truth.   This is the main issue with the 'Left' organization.   It's basically the same ploy of satan, just using another name for the same old purpose of leading people astray.    

satan knows that his time is short... (I know... this quote has become a cliche' ).   he is out to deceive many.   What concerns me is that people will choose to believe a lie before they will believe God, and follow organizations like this .


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## LoveisYou (Mar 30, 2012)

This is the everything and everyone is o.k. in my book era. We are so PC and accepting, the line between right and wrong is hard to define. A good person nowadays is one who "accepts it all," if you don't you are a hateful jerk. To them love cannot rebuke, love cannot say when something is wrong, love must me generally accepting of everything.


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## Shimmie (Mar 30, 2012)

LoveisYou said:


> This is the everything and everyone is o.k. in my book era. We are so PC and accepting, the line between right and wrong is hard to define. A good person nowadays is one who "accepts it all," if you don't you are a hateful jerk. To them love cannot rebuke, love cannot say when something is wrong, love must me generally accepting of everything.



The irony with these groups and organizations is that not everyone is okay in their book; they don't find everything and everyone accepting.   They reject any and everyone who disagrees with them.     

Their philosophy is based upon non acceptance upon those whom they take issue with.   They begin by stating they are in total oppostition to the 'right'.  

Ai yi yi.... 

It has nothing to do with the Word or the love of God...  It's based upon what 'they' want... upon making their own god which is actually themselves.


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## Laela (Mar 31, 2012)

Shimmie said:


> Anyone can perform good works. Anthiests do so everyday, *with or without tax breaks*.


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## Shimmie (Mar 31, 2012)

Laela said:


>



stop teasin' me Laela...  

  



But you know what?   

It seems to me that 'Atheists' and Rebellious organizations have a run on good works just to prove they can outdo God or have no need for believing in or taking heed to His Word.   

Okay, I've done enough _damage_ for the day.  I'm going to bed now...

Sweet sleep everyone.     I am way past my curfew...


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## Laela (Mar 31, 2012)

I respect your comments... the "with or without tax breaks" just tickled me, because they could even split that hair, too..those without tax breaks being more liberal than those without..  

But seriously, I do agree the rebellious always believe  they have one-up on God... Bible has some good examples for us to learn from. God bless you and sweet sleep!


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## Shimmie (Mar 31, 2012)

Laela said:


> *I respect your comments*... the "with or without tax breaks" just tickled me, because they could even split that hair, too..those without tax breaks being more liberal than those without..
> 
> But seriously, I do agree the rebellious always believe  they have one-up on God... Bible has some good examples for us to learn from. God bless you and sweet sleep!



I know you do, I respect yours as well.  You share so much wisdom... 

As for the 'tax breaks', I'm glad that you 'caught it' too.   You *know* me.  Oh yes you do.   You knew exactly how I meant it when I said it.   I was not behaving....  :blush3:  

Love and hugs to you and Hubbie...  


   to you and Hubbie too.


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## Crown (Mar 31, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> Crown, I definitely understand where you're coming from. I think what Shimmie means (and I'd agree with her) is that while many members of that organization are individual Christians (*who unfortunately teach/believe heresy), that the organization as an organization isn't a truly Christian one*.



[QUOTE=Galadriel;15612073]@Crown, I hope my tone isn't coming off as confrontational (that is not my intention). I understand that you're saying we can't judge anyone's soul (e.g., "He's going to Hell" or "He's in Hell"). However we can and should judge *outward* actions and words, especially when they contradict or deny what Christ and the Apostles have passed down to us.

The Christian Left can't have it both ways. They can't proclaim to believe in Jesus as Lord but also proclaim that He is not the only means of salvation and the Bible is not literal. They can't decry greed or wealth as sins, but say abortion and gay marriage aren't a big deal. *They are picking and choosing what they want to believe, and in some instances  denying the very foundations of Christian theological and moral doctrine*.[/QUOTE]




Galadriel said:


> erplexed *Maybe we're misunderstanding each other on some point*.




 Yes, I understand what you are saying. I am sorry that I can not better explain what I am saying. Let me try again a last time.

The little Philadelphia is still there.
But, we are living in the prevalent and predominant Laodicean era.

Look at the large diversity in the Christianity for a One God, One Spirit, One baptize!
There is no confusion in God!

I agree : The Christian Left is distorting the Word of God for their own agenda, but they are not alone in this.

Categorizing who are Christians and who are not Christians for ME is vain like trying to decide who is in heaven or who is in hell.

Just an example:
At the same time you are saying: they are not Christians because…
Someone else is saying: Catholics are not Christians because…

Not necessary!
God knows his children and who are not.


But, what should we/they do:

2 Cor. 13 : 5 *Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith*; test yourselves.

Acts 17 : 11 Now the Berean Jews  were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they  received the message with great eagerness and *examined the Scriptures  every day to see* if what Paul said was true.


Here is what the Messiah is saying to His people:

Rev. 18 : 4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say: 
   “‘*Come out of her, my people*,’ so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues; 5 *for her sins are piled up to heaven*, and God has remembered her crimes. 

Rev. 3 : 17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that *you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked*. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. 
   19 *Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline*. So be earnest and repent.


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## sidney (Mar 31, 2012)

Crown, I thank you for sharing this parable because you have opened my eyes to something new, so genuinely, thanks!  The son was lost by every sense of the word.  But the fact that he was a son, as a ring of election/predestination to it.  God knows who will repent and return to him.  This father saw his son when he was afar off it says.  He was expecting him!  I have been lost before.  But thank God I didnt lose my sonship from an eternal perspective.  I agree with Shimmie about repentence.  Thank God he knows who will repent.  In the meantime we pray for that they come to an understanding.  Come to their senses and return.  
Thank you for this thread, very enlightening!

M





Crown said:


> We can agree to disagree!
> 
> Maybe it's just semantics, but I tend to not judge who is in hell or in heaven, who is Christian and who is not.
> God is The Judge!
> ...


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## SummerSolstice (Apr 2, 2012)

Shimmie said:


> *The irony with these groups and organizations is that not everyone is okay in their book; they don't find everything and everyone accepting.   They reject any and everyone who disagrees with them.*
> 
> Their philosophy is based upon non acceptance upon those whom they take issue with.   They begin by stating they are in total oppostition to the 'right'.
> 
> ...




Right... they get mad at people for disagreeing and then they do the very thing that they hate... They were pushing for so much acceptance but they couldn't accept the fact that what I was saying was different from what they believe.


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## Shimmie (Apr 2, 2012)

SummerSolstice said:


> Right... they get mad at people for disagreeing and then they do the very thing that they hate... They were pushing for so much acceptance but they couldn't accept the fact that what I was saying was different from what they believe.



Their facebook page now has this message:

_This content is currently unavailable.The page you requested cannot be displayed right now. It may be temporarily unavailable, the link you clicked on may have expired, or you may not have permission to view this page._

What you said to them must have had some serious impact.


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## Laela (Apr 2, 2012)

Ya'll got locked out.. lol


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## Galadriel (Apr 2, 2012)

Laela said:


> Ya'll got locked out.. lol



 SummerSolstice wasn't even mean, they just REALLY didn't like that she had a different view.


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## Shimmie (Apr 2, 2012)

Laela said:


> Ya'll got locked out.. lol



  Gee whiz... we was   




Galadriel said:


> SummerSolstice wasn't even mean, they just REALLY didn't like that she had a different view.



   It seems like the only way to view them is to 'like' them or add them as a 'friend'.    


  


Those options have suddenly disappeared.    Not that I was going to utilize em...   but ummmmm, they just disappeared.


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## SummerSolstice (Apr 3, 2012)

My pastor just preached about this on Sunday too! I wonder if he saw that whole thing go down 
at the end of the sermon he closed with "sin is sin and we're all sinners... if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and smells like a duck... well its a duck" 
i just met a gay man proclaiming Christ at this brunch I attended after church... that crowd is getting larger yall. its not a game. i'm not saying I don't sin but I feel bad about it afterwards. people aren't even getting convicted anymore.


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## Shimmie (Apr 3, 2012)

SummerSolstice said:


> My pastor just preached about this on Sunday too! I wonder if he saw that whole thing go down
> at the end of the sermon he closed with "sin is sin and we're all sinners... if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and smells like a duck... well its a duck"
> 
> i just met a gay man proclaiming Christ at this brunch I attended after church... that crowd is getting larger yall. its not a game. i'm not saying I don't sin but I feel bad about it afterwards. people aren't even getting convicted anymore.



That's the problem with the 'Left'... no repentance of sin.  

They are giving 'license' to whosoever will to live as they 'choose', calling this 'free acceptance', without repentance.  To them sin is no longer sin.  It's accepting how one chooses to live and to cover it with 'good works'.


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## naturalgyrl5199 (Apr 7, 2012)

Shimmie said:


> Their facebook page now has this message:
> 
> _This content is currently unavailable.The page you requested cannot be displayed right now. It may be temporarily unavailable, the link you clicked on may have expired, or you may not have permission to view this page._
> 
> What you said to them must have had some serious impact.




The group is still there. I went to that link that was put up, then logged in, and searched for the group and it came right up.

I understand what this group is attempting to do.
I like anything that is NON-JUDGMENTAL. The same way we say ppl need to turn away from homosexuality and fornication, etc, we need to turn away from people USING GOD to suppress and marginalize others. I absolutely HATE the way people latch on to conservatism and certain political groups because they put on the front of Christianity. They spend countless hours telling women they out not use birth control because its not God's way while spending talking dirty about a poor woman with many kids (whether she is married or not)...saying why have all these babies you can't afford. When all she is guilty of is letting nature run its natural course!

I think you can't have it both ways. These so-called conservative Christian groups are really the biggest danger to Christianity in many ways:

They overwhelmingly exclude minorities...
They hate and judge anyone who doesn't look or act like them. 
They go out of their way to disenfranchise the poor by seeking to remove programs designed to help the poor.
WHile I DO believe homosexuality is a sin I cannot in my heart for any reason judge them and just tell them you are going to hell. 
I am deadly sick of the politics that have merged with religion and our believe in Jesus Christ!
This type of exclusivity is why many people are turning away from the one true GOD DAILY! What do they see: Christians who judge, and hate, and use God as justification to achieve evil means. The whole so-called  "conservative" movement to me is a CULT. I myself do believe Jesus would be a liberal by today's definition...I mean, love EVERYONE, including your neighbors and your enemies? OMG who would have thought? Spend money to help out the poor? How communist! OMG scandal....but that's what these conservative Christians claim to do...

This group has its flaws, but they are inclusive, not exclusive....I am not a member of this group but I do understand its premise...I think that this group is an attempt to say NOT ALL CHRISTIANS are like that. It burns me when I say I am a Christian Southerner and people just think we are one rigid, judgmental, ignorant, way (as portrayed in the media) and we're not.


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## naturalgyrl5199 (Apr 7, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> Crown, I hope my tone isn't coming off as confrontational (that is not my intention). I understand that you're saying we can't judge anyone's soul (e.g., "He's going to Hell" or "He's in Hell"). However we can and should judge *outward* actions and words, especially when they contradict or deny what Christ and the Apostles have passed down to us.
> 
> The Christian Left can't have it both ways. *They can't proclaim to believe in Jesus as Lord but also proclaim that He is not the only means of salvation and the Bible is not literal.* They can't decry greed or wealth as sins, but say abortion and gay marriage aren't a big deal. They are picking and choosing what they want to believe, and in some instances  denying the very foundations of Christian theological and moral doctrine.



That's one reason I am not part of this group....
But these things are soooo political.
I will address abortion for a quick second. I think that reversing Roe vs Wade will start a complete undoing of democracy....Once a government tells the citizen how to control its body, you open a can of worms. There is only 2 choices in the rule of abortion: 1) Reverse Roe vs Wade and protect the unborn. But you take the power away from the woman to control her body. 2) Leave Roe vs Wade and the unborn is not protected. But the power stays with the woman, the woman who is alive and on this earth. 
BUT, once a government tells her what she can and cannot do to her own body--you no longer have a democratic government. This is why Republicans today are not really willing to reverse it. No matter how "pro-life" they claim to be.... You cannot in good conscious take away a person's CHOICE in a democracy. Even Jesus gives us the free will to make a CHOICE. You just have to PAY FOR THAT CHOICE. I will always believe that Christians don't need a LAW OF MAN to be created to make people do the right thing. Our laws come from one place and that will never change though kingdoms and governments will rise and fall until the end of days....But having this belief does mean I am PRO CHOICE not PRO ABORTION. One day the need for abortion will be eliminated (once poverty, adultery, and fornication---reasons for adultery are eradicated).....Unfortunately having this belief automatically in the eyes of many means I am evil, and and I am not really a Christian but whatevs.... 
But I believe our biggest task as Christians is for people to see us and WANT God for themselves because our light is shining the light of the Lord. Not run the minute we open our mouths....


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## LadyRaider (Apr 7, 2012)

I think that is said well, Naturalgyrl. What the government can and should do is different from what God can do. 

My church (University Baptist Church in Austin) was thrown out of the Southern Baptist Convention in the mid-90s for having an openly gay deacon. In the 1940s this very same church was thrown out of the SBC for having a black deacon. And in the 1960s... you guessed it... thrown out again for having a female deacon.  

They were always let back in to the SBC (except this last time) because the Christian Right eventually caught up with the Christian Left on what is the best thing for a church to be doing. 

The Gay deacon has been a deal breaker, however. Heh. My church has since joined the Alliance of Baptists.  

Anyway... I love my church. It is the exemplar of the Christian left.  Very focused on Jesus' teachings... Who didn't seem to have gays and abortion as his priority.


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## aribell (Apr 7, 2012)

naturalgyrl5199 said:
			
		

> That's one reason I am not part of this group....
> But these things are soooo political.
> I will address abortion for a quick second. I think that reversing Roe vs Wade will start a complete undoing of democracy....Once a government tells the citizen how to control its body, you open a can of worms. There is only 2 choices in the rule of abortion: 1) Reverse Roe vs Wade and protect the unborn. But you take the power away from the woman to control her body. 2) Leave Roe vs Wade and the unborn is not protected. But the power stays with the woman, the woman who is alive and on this earth.
> BUT, once a government tells her what she can and cannot do to her own body--you no longer have a democratic government. This is why Republicans today are not really willing to reverse it. No matter how "pro-life" they claim to be.... You cannot in good conscious take away a person's CHOICE in a democracy. Even Jesus gives us the free will to make a CHOICE. You just have to PAY FOR THAT CHOICE. I will always believe that Christians don't need a LAW OF MAN to be created to make people do the right thing. Our laws come from one place and that will never change though kingdoms and governments will rise and fall until the end of days....But having this belief does mean I am PRO CHOICE not PRO ABORTION. One day the need for abortion will be eliminated (once poverty, adultery, and fornication---reasons for adultery are eradicated).....Unfortunately having this belief automatically in the eyes of many means I am evil, and and I am not really a Christian but whatevs....
> But I believe our biggest task as Christians is for people to see us and WANT God for themselves because our light is shining the light of the Lord. Not run the minute we open our mouths....



For me, the takeaway from your post is that the government may be God's servant, but it is not the final judge of good and evil.  We all will be held accountable before the Lord for what we have done on this earth, whether it was legal or illegal when we did it; and the fact that the law allowed it will be no excuse.

The government restrains and even punishes evil, but the fact that the government does not forbid something does not make anyone do it.  The sinful choices people make fall on their own heads.  And it is the Church's responsibility--not that of the government--under the annointing  of the Holy Spirit, to convict people of  their sin and call them to repentance.  The government is there for order in society, not for holiness.

I support pro-life causes, and yet am still extremely uncomfortable with granting the government the authority to say what ought to happen within a mother's body.  There is a limit to the reach of the government.  Yes, God knits us in our mother's womb, and every mother will stand before Him to give account for everything.  Whether she chose to nurture the life within her is something she will have to account for (and hopefully those who chose not to nurture will repent and receive Christ's forgiveness).  It is a deep cultural problem, and a deep cultural sin...but not really a legal or political one.

At the same time, the gov't oversteps its bounds in many ways already.  So long as it's overreaching,  it can save the unborn as well.


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## Shimmie (Apr 8, 2012)

LadyRaider said:


> I think that is said well, Naturalgyrl. What the government can and should do is different from what God can do.
> 
> My church (University Baptist Church in Austin) was thrown out of the Southern Baptist Convention in the mid-90s for having an openly gay deacon. In the 1940s this very same church was thrown out of the SBC for having a black deacon. And in the 1960s... you guessed it... thrown out again for having a female deacon.
> 
> ...



Jesus does indeed love and will reject no one.   However homosexuality still has to be renounced and repented of.  

Jesus STILL says, go and sin no more.   Of all sins, homosexuality is the only one of which those who support it, feel there is no need for repentence.   

gays cannot lead those in Christ for they are leading in unrepented sin.  There is no way around this other than to turn away from it... meaning the gay lifestyle.    

Again, Jesus does indeed love everyone, but His commandment to each of us is to go and sin no more. 

gays cannot remain in a gay lifestyle and call themselves followers of Christ.   Jesus wasn't gay neither did He promote it.    He came not to change the law but to fulfill it.  Among the laws, homosexuality was and still is forbidden.    

Case closed.


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## MonPetite (Apr 8, 2012)

.....................


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## Galadriel (Apr 8, 2012)

This is what I think is a large part of the problem with groups like the "Christian Left," they try to sublimate their political ideology into some type of para-religious dogma. Hence their continual suggestions that Jesus was a political Messiah, a social revolutionary, etc. In the end they create a Christ of their own making who condones their sins.

My critique (and many others' critique) of them stems from a clear, firm, and rooted understanding of Christ and the Gospel, and moral objectivity. 

Democracy has never (and will never) be undone because of criminalizing abortion. The democratic foundation of our society is not abortion. Abortion is the unjust murder of unborn children--this is morally true. Scripture says that willful murder is one of the sins that cry out to God for justice.

Pro-choice and Pro-abortion are the same thing.





naturalgyrl5199 said:


> That's one reason I am not part of this group....
> But these things are soooo political.
> I will address abortion for a quick second. I think that reversing Roe vs Wade will start a complete undoing of democracy....Once a government tells the citizen how to control its body, you open a can of worms. There is only 2 choices in the rule of abortion: 1) Reverse Roe vs Wade and protect the unborn. But you take the power away from the woman to control her body. 2) Leave Roe vs Wade and the unborn is not protected. But the power stays with the woman, the woman who is alive and on this earth.
> BUT, once a government tells her what she can and cannot do to her own body--you no longer have a democratic government. This is why Republicans today are not really willing to reverse it. No matter how "pro-life" they claim to be.... You cannot in good conscious take away a person's CHOICE in a democracy. Even Jesus gives us the free will to make a CHOICE. You just have to PAY FOR THAT CHOICE. I will always believe that Christians don't need a LAW OF MAN to be created to make people do the right thing. Our laws come from one place and that will never change though kingdoms and governments will rise and fall until the end of days....But having this belief does mean I am PRO CHOICE not PRO ABORTION. One day the need for abortion will be eliminated (once poverty, adultery, and fornication---reasons for adultery are eradicated).....Unfortunately having this belief automatically in the eyes of many means I am evil, and and I am not really a Christian but whatevs....
> But I believe our biggest task as Christians is for people to see us and WANT God for themselves because our light is shining the light of the Lord. Not run the minute we open our mouths....


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## Galadriel (Apr 8, 2012)

Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

--Isaiah 5:20


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## LadyRaider (Apr 8, 2012)

Jesus never talked about homosexuality as a sin. Where do you get that He said to renounce anyone? 

"Go forth and renounce..." No... Jesus didn't appear to be calling for a police force to go out and separate the good from the bad. 

What is His call for action if you are a Christian? What does He say He wants his followers to do?

Isaiah is one of my favorite prophets, but he doesn't speak to this issue as in his time people were sacrificing lambs to cleans themselves of sin. 

Why did Jesus die on the cross if we are capable of living sinless lives?


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## LadyRaider (Apr 8, 2012)

The Christian Right has been wrong historically every time. They are not a force for progress, but a way to stunt progress. The Christian Left were the abolitionists. The Christian Right opposed the Civil Rights movement. Their agenda is not so much religious as it is to maintain the status quo. Their focus on abortion and gay rights as the biggest societal sin is in conflict with both the teachings of Jesus AND their own past teachings when they supported slavery (a  societal sin) and elevated "PERSONAL" relationships with God as the way to go. 

Every great human movement toward progress came from the left and was opposed by the right. They are just wrong wrong wrong every time.


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## Sharpened (Apr 8, 2012)

LadyRaider said:


> Jesus never talked about homosexuality as a sin.





> *Matthew 15:19* For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, _sexual immorality_, theft, false witness, slander.
> 
> *Mark 7:21* For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, _sexual immorality_, theft, murder, adultery…
> 
> *John 4:22* You [Samaritans] worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, _for salvation is from the Jews._


 
  Jesus and the Apostles were Jews. The Bible has to be understood within the framework God Himself established, not the Greco-Roman one modern man has adopted.



> Where do you get that He said to renounce anyone?
> 
> "Go forth and renounce..." No... Jesus didn't appear to be calling for a police force to go out and separate the good from the bad.


 He renounced the Pharisees because of their man-made doctrines. He renounced sin, which is self (who has not thought or behaved in a way that says we know better than our Creator?). 

  To be holy is to be separate. Did He not separate the Israelites from the rest of the nations? Did He not separate them further by His laws and commands? Did that separating change when Jesus amended the old pact by His blood baptism? No, we became _spiritual Israel_ (Romans 2:29, Romans 4:16, Romans 8:16, Galatians 3:7, Galatians 4:26, Galatians 6:15-16, Hebrews 12:22-23, Ephesians 2:11-13, Ephesians 2:19-20, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11 ), whom God knew before He created man (Acts 13:48, Romans 8:29-30, 1 Corinthians 2:7, Ephesians 1:3-12, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, 2 Timothy 1:9).



> What is His call for action if you are a Christian? What does He say He wants his followers to do?


 “Deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow Me.” See Matthew 10:38, Matthew 16:24, Mark 8:34, Mark 10:21, Luke 9:23, Luke 14:27.



> Isaiah is one of my favorite prophets, but he doesn't speak to this issue as in his time people were sacrificing lambs to cleans themselves of sin.


 Isaiah was Israelite who already knew what sexual sin was. That has not and will never change.



> Why did Jesus die on the cross if we are capable of living sinless lives?


 Through Him (His sacrifice and the indwelling of the Holy Ghost), we have a chance to become sinless. As we die to self and obey Him (doing faith), sin decreases.


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## Galadriel (Apr 8, 2012)

LadyRaider said:


> Jesus never talked about homosexuality as a sin. Where do you get that He said to renounce anyone?
> 
> "Go forth and renounce..." No... Jesus didn't appear to be calling for a police force to go out and separate the good from the bad.
> 
> ...



Jesus is God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. God said that homosexuality is a sin, and this is reiterated throughout Scripture:



Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."1
Lev. 20:13,  "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman,  both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put  to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"
1 Cor. 6:9-10,  "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom  of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor  adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
Rom. 1:26-28,  "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their  women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and  in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the  woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men  committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due  penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to  acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to  do those things which are not proper."
 Homosexuality  is clearly condemned by the Bible.  It goes against the created order  of God who created Adam, a man, and then made Eve, a woman.  This is  what God has ordained as the normal means by which we carry out his  command to fill the earth (Gen. 1:28). 



Also, Jesus spoke about Hell 15 times in the New Testament (moreso than any other Biblical figure)--it would behoove us to heed His admonishments.


The moral truths uttered by Isaiah are still moral truths applicable to us today. All of the Bible is inspired Scripture--the Word of God. 

Jesus died on the cross in order to FREE us from sin--not to let us wallow in it with impunity. Light cannot abide with darkness, holiness cannot abide with sinfulness--God is Holy; to approve of sin or make it morally permissible is contrary to His nature.


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## Galadriel (Apr 8, 2012)

LadyRaider said:


> The Christian Right has been wrong historically every time. They are not a force for progress, but a way to stunt progress. The Christian Left were the abolitionists. The Christian Right opposed the Civil Rights movement. Their agenda is not so much religious as it is to maintain the status quo. Their focus on abortion and gay rights as the biggest societal sin is in conflict with both the teachings of Jesus AND their own past teachings when they supported slavery (a  societal sin) and elevated "PERSONAL" relationships with God as the way to go.
> 
> Every great human movement toward progress came from the left and was opposed by the right. They are just wrong wrong wrong every time.



This statement is very biased and untrue, and once again it elevates a political ideology (one that often conflicts with the Gospel) to the status of pseudo-religion.


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## LadyRaider (Apr 8, 2012)

Again... the Hebrew/Jewish Texts are great. Love them. Why did Jesus die on the cross?

 In the time of the Hebrew texts, people sacrificed lambs to clear their sins. 

After Jesus died, there was a new covenant. Why did he die? Just a dramatic act so we could know how powerful he was and be fearful?

This is Easter. Jesus died and now he is risen. Why?


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## LadyRaider (Apr 8, 2012)

No power in the sky above or in the earth below--indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.


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## Galadriel (Apr 8, 2012)

LadyRaider said:


> Again... the Hebrew/Jewish Texts are great. Love them.



They are also the infallible Word of God and make up most of the Bible.



LadyRaider said:


> Why did Jesus die on the cross?



1. To establish the New Covenant by sacrificing Himself as our Paschal Lamb and atoning for sin.
2. To free us from sin and death.
3. To reconcile us with God and establish us as His holy people




LadyRaider said:


> In the time of the Hebrew texts, people sacrificed lambs to clear their sins.



Yes, and Christ is the Lamb of God, whose sacrifice is sufficient and eternal. The sacrifices offered under the Mosaic Covenant was the foreshadowing of Christ.



LadyRaider said:


> This is Easter. Jesus died and now he is risen. Why?



To be victorious over death, for the wages of sin is death. By dying He destroyed our death, by rising He restored our life. We are to imitate Jesus Christ and live as children of God, in righteousness and purity.


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## Galadriel (Apr 8, 2012)

LadyRaider said:


> No power in the sky above or in the earth below--indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.



Indeed! But you confuse this with acceptance of sin or overlooking sin. 

*1 John 5:16*
16 If you see any brother  or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and  God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to  death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you  should pray about that. 

*1 Corinthians 6:9*
Don't you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom  of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who  worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice  homosexuality.

*1 Corinthians 6:18*
Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside  his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body.

*Luke 12:5*
"But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has  killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

*2 Peter 2:1-22*
But  there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be  false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive  heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift  destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 


In  their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made  up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their  destruction has not been sleeping. 


For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; if  he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its  ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and  seven others; if  he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes,  and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men (for  that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in  his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)—if  this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and  to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their  punishment. 

This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority.


Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; yet  even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring  slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. But  these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like  brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and  destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish. 



They  will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of  pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes,  reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. But  he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—a beast without  speech—who spoke with a man’s voice and restrained the prophet’s  madness. 



These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. For  they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful  desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping  from those who live in error. They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. If  they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and  Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are  worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 



It  would have been better for them not to have known the way of  righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the  sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”


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## LadyRaider (Apr 8, 2012)

None of us are perfect. No one is without sin. If you put homosexuality on the sin scale, I daresay it'd be lesser ranked than mean gossip about a co-worker. 

Jesus died for our sins. We are saved by Grace. We do nothing and can do nothing to deserve the Grace of God. It is a gift. It is a beautiful gift that I am not worthy of having, but that He gave it to me anyway. I'm not going to devalue that gift by thinking I'm some how more deserving that someone else. No one is more deserving than anyone else. God knows we can't be perfect, He knows we are merely dust. 

He died on the cross. God gave His only begotten son so that we might have everlasting life. That's a huge sacrifice. It wasn't done for just the "good" people. Or for only the people who did certain things for him. To think that cheapens the gift. A regular old mother and father will do things for their children without expecting something in return. Why would God be less of a parent? It was done for everyone. 

Nothing can separate us from the gift of God's love. 

Our call as Christians? To be Christ in the world. And to care for the least of these. There's no renunciation duties, no judgement duties listed. To be Christlike is to love.   

Whose sin is worse than someone else's? How would I know? God knows, but I can't know. I know everyone is a sinner. 

And you don't get to say, "but I'm trying not to sin, so I'm different" 1. I don't see how that matters because you are human and you WILL fail. and 2. You don't know what that gay person is thinking in his heart. We all have our struggles.  

In Romans 7, the verse before Paul writes how we can not be separated from Jesus's love, he writes of his own sinful flesh. He writes how he can't control his sinful flesh. Yet he knows he is Christ's beloved. 

Listen! Jesus' death meant something monumental. And wonderful. We are saved by His Grace. And lucky for ALL of us. Because none of us can earn God's love. 

Politically, what's best for the United States is not always the Christian thing, though people tend to try and rationalize things. Politically, might makes right. The United States is the most powerful country in the world and its priority is to stay that way. That's not a Christian concern at all. 

What government's duty is usually does NOT coincide with a Christian's duty.   When it does, there can be problems. For instance we are BOTH Christians, but we have radically different views on the role Christians should play AND what Christ's death on the cross meant. If two Christians can't agree, how can the US government act as representatives for even the both of us, much less the Jews, atheists, etc that are American citizens? 

PS: You quoted Leviticus earlier. Leviticus has some pretty stringent rules in there. Something about the sin of wearing two different fabrics?  

Some nice sermons from the Christian Left: http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/university-baptist-church/id422114994  #34 somewhat applies to this discussion. 


Happy Easter! He is risen indeed!


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## Shimmie (Apr 8, 2012)

LadyRaider said:


> None of us are perfect. No one is without sin.
> 
> If you put homosexuality on the sin scale, I daresay it'd be lesser ranked than mean gossip about a co-worker.



The key you are missing here is to 'STOP'...  No one can remain a gossip, neither can anyone remain in a homosexual lifestyle.   

As with any other sin, there is no defense for homosexuality.   Along with every other sin, this was dealt with on the same cross that Jesus died upon.   It was not singled out as the exceptional sin which can go without repentence.   

Out of all the sins, this is the one sin that rises up to be defended and feels that it deserves to be excluded from the Cross.   

Don't continue to defend it for there is no defense of it... none.


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## naturalgyrl5199 (Apr 9, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> This is what I think is a large part of the problem with groups like the "Christian Left," they try to sublimate their political ideology into some type of para-religious dogma. Hence their continual suggestions that Jesus was a political Messiah, a social revolutionary, etc. In the end they create a Christ of their own making who condones their sins.
> 
> My critique (and many others' critique) of them stems from a clear, firm, and rooted understanding of Christ and the Gospel, and moral objectivity.
> 
> ...


 
I just can't agree with you on that. But as many have said, its just too political. I am not pro-abortion and I never will be FOR the killing of babies. You just can't put everyone in one big box. Nor is it really fair.

*Question: What right does a government have to tell you what to do with your body?*

This country is supposed to be a separation of church and state, which the Right is blurring the lines (trying to have their cake and eat it too).....As a result, you have these groups such as Christian Left spreading the wrong message and pulling people into the fold for wrong reasons. Both ends of the stick are going about this the wrong way and are not helping improve the Kingdom of God not one bit. All they are doing IMO is creating more extremists...Almost a Christian version of radical Islamic extremism. I suppose a Christian version of Sharia law is what the (far) Right really wants....except when it comes to their money and to be held accountable for being adulterous. As a Christian I don't feel they represent the truth or the Kingdom of God, or me at all. 

I won't argue scripture, but its not fair to put everyone in a box based on so-called political terms.


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## naturalgyrl5199 (Apr 9, 2012)

I agree somewhat with LadyRaider.

I think for me the Biblical law is the Biblical Law. Unfortunately is subject to interpretation. I'm okay with that. 

My concern is more with how Christians DECIDE to hold people accountable for certain things. LadyRaider asked who's sin is worse? My answer is NO ONE's...The liar (little white lies too) burns in the same pit as the homosexual, the adulterer, the murderer....I will say put "unrepentant" in front of all of these.

People can quote scripture to me all day, but what matters is the individual relationship one has with God, and its not going to be the same as others. Even a literal interpretation of the Bible is still subject to that person's interpretation...but what matters to me is what you do in action. Maybe I just know too many hipocrites(sp?)....May be I just respect that everyone is not perfect and I allow for that. I think Jesus does too. Me accepting that doesn't make me a person who accepts sin. I don't have that power or authority. Jesus accepts what he accepts. God loves who he loves. A great example is David and Solomon. Sinners...But loves God. Whom God loves.


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## Sharpened (Apr 9, 2012)

> *Hebrews 5:7-10* In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to Him who was able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His reverence. Although He was a son, _He learned obedience through what He suffered_. And being made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation to _all who obey Him_, being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.


  Everything Jesus taught is in the Old Testament and He quoted it often. He did not abandon His Father’s teachings and to assume such is an insult to the pure, living water of His word and the unleavened bread of His knowledge. It, the Law now written in our hearts, has nothing to do with one sin being greater than another, but true faith and love of Him requires obedience, which should increase over time, not stagnate at a “comfortable” level.

  Sacrifices did not cover sins; the holocaust of innocent animals was to be a reminder that Israel deserved the treatment and sometimes got it when the stench of her sin was too great. See Hebrews 9-10, Mark 12:33, 1 Samuel 15:22-23, Psalm 40:6, Psalm 51:16-17, Proverbs 21:3, Ecclesiastes 5:1, Isaiah 1:11-20, Jeremiah 7:20-23, Hosea 6:6, Micah 6:6-8, Amos 5:22-27.

  Only God’s shed blood could atone men and satisfy the Law He established.

  The problem is when we get caught into any religion (like politics) or mindset, we miss the full measure of His truth. We seek things to shore up our position, holding on to it, but we end up locking out the chance to be further refined (or chastened) into Yeshua’s, the Father’s, image. No individual, group, or institution has the full truth, or immunity from any aspect of human behavior, good or bad. This is why it is imperative to hunt down His Word on our own and let Him teach us (2 Corinthians 7:15, Philippians 1:5-6, Philippians 2:12). 

  The religion of man’s ego leads to…



> *Matthew 12:25, Mark 3:24-25, Luke 11:17* Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall.


  …because…



> *2 Timothy 2:4* No soldier gets entangled in civilian pursuits, since his aim is to please the one who enlisted him.


  …since…



> *Ephesians 6:12* For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.


  …for…



> *Mark 11:23* “Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain (symbol for _government_ or _leadership_), ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass, it will be done for him.”


  …and…



> *Mark 12:17a* Jesus said to them, “_Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s._”


  …therefore…



> *John 18:36* Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But My kingdom is not from the world.”


  We have a spiritual war to prepare for and fight. Politics is and will always be yet another distraction. Repent of it, die to it and don on your armor of light!


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## aribell (Apr 9, 2012)

There is a lot of picking and choosing of sins.  If we look at the 10 commandments in total, you not only have "Do not kill," there's also "Do not commit adultery."  When Paul runs down his list of those who will not inherit the Kingdom of God (I Cor. 6), plenty of sins are on there that Christians don't look to the government to punish.  The question is what things are appropriate for the government to address, not whether we believe that such and such is actually a sin in God's sight.

I believe the insistence of many Christians to get the government to police social morality reflects failure in the Church.  What congregations have been  unable to accomplish through evangelism and discipleship, they look to accomplish through the coercive power of the state.  We can look at the divorce rate, as well as the rate of pre-marital sex in evangelical churches (as well as scandals in other denominations) to see clearly that Christian leaders have, on the whole, not been able to bring the culture of their own churches into line with God, let alone the rest of society.  If those with the power of God cannot do it, Congress stands much less of a chance in doing so.  

I don't believe the government should recognize gay marriages.  But why is the political arena the Christian's battleground?  Didn't Paul tell us that we battle not against flesh and blood, and that our weapons are not carnal?  Allowing gay people to marry or not to marry is not going to make one person gay or not gay.  However that issue turns, it won't make a difference for anyone's deliverance from a sinful life.  

The democratic process is purely a reflection of whatever the society is.  If enough people in the country want a certain thing, eventually that is what the laws will reflect.  For that reason, Christians can't rely on the political process to control the actions of people, because once it becomes a genuine political fight, that means the culture has already changed significantly, and if it continues to do so, the question is not "if" such and such happens, but simply "when."  We really have to put our energy into the Great Commission and engaging people one-on-one.


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## LadyRaider (Apr 9, 2012)

This is a horrible analogy, but when Christians feel as if it is their role to renounce others, I can hear Jesus' voice like I hear the 911 dispatcher in the Zimmerman case: "We don't need you to do that." 

But yeah, I think people here have said it so much better than I could. The government's role is far different than the church's role. I am against abortion and could counsel anyone not to do it. There are just too many places where that little soul is needed and can be loved. And who knows what kind of artist or teacher that baby might become. But I feel real uncomfortable with the government making women have babies they don't want.


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## naturalgyrl5199 (Apr 9, 2012)

Sharpened said:


> Everything Jesus taught is in the Old Testament and He quoted it often. He did not abandon His Father’s teachings and to assume such is an insult to the pure, living water of His word and the unleavened bread of His knowledge. It, the Law now written in our hearts, has nothing to do with one sin being greater than another, but true faith and love of Him requires obedience, which should increase over time, not stagnate at a “comfortable” level.
> 
> Sacrifices did not cover sins; the holocaust of innocent animals was to be a reminder that Israel deserved the treatment and sometimes got it when the stench of her sin was too great. See Hebrews 9-10, Mark 12:33, 1 Samuel 15:22-23, Psalm 40:6, Psalm 51:16-17, Proverbs 21:3, Ecclesiastes 5:1, Isaiah 1:11-20, Jeremiah 7:20-23, Hosea 6:6, Micah 6:6-8, Amos 5:22-27.
> 
> ...


 


nicola.kirwan said:


> *There is a lot of picking and choosing of sins.* If we look at the 10 commandments in total, you not only have "Do not kill," there's also "Do not commit adultery." When Paul runs down his list of those who will not inherit the Kingdom of God (I Cor. 6), plenty of sins are on there that Christians don't look to the government to punish. The question is what things are appropriate for the government to address, not whether we believe that such and such is actually a sin in God's sight.
> 
> *I believe the insistence of many Christians to get the government to police social morality reflects failure in the Church. What congregations have been unable to accomplish through evangelism and discipleship, they look to accomplish through the coercive power of the state. *We can look at the divorce rate, as well as the rate of pre-marital sex in evangelical churches (as well as scandals in other denominations) to see clearly that Christian leaders have, on the whole, not been able to bring the culture of their own churches into line with God, let alone the rest of society. If those with the power of God cannot do it, Congress stands much less of a chance in doing so.
> 
> ...


 
Christians CANNOT and SHOULD not depend on the political process to mandate the actions of people! 




LadyRaider said:


> This is a horrible analogy, but when Christians feel as if it is their role to renounce others, I can hear Jesus' voice like I hear the 911 dispatcher in the Zimmerman case: "We don't need you to do that."
> 
> But yeah, I think people here have said it so much better than I could. *The government's role is far different than the church's role.* I am against abortion and could counsel anyone not to do it. There are just too many places where that little soul is needed and can be loved. And who knows what kind of artist or teacher that baby might become. *But I feel real uncomfortable with the government making women have babies they don't want*.


 
A big Fat AMEN all day to everything here.


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## Galadriel (Apr 9, 2012)

LadyRaider said:


> None of us are perfect. No one is without sin.



Sometimes we do fall into sin through weakness or attachment to certain vices, however God tells us that we should repent (repent literally means to do an about-face and turn away). Repentance isn't just feeling guilty or sorry about what we did, it means to have true moral and spiritual sorrow for having offended God through sin, asking for His forgiveness, and resolving to AVOID sin and situations that would encourage us to sin.




LadyRaider said:


> If you put homosexuality on the sin scale, I daresay it'd be lesser ranked than mean gossip about a co-worker.



That's not what the Bible says. Do you not believe that the entire Bible (both Old and New Testaments) are the inspired Word of God?



LadyRaider said:


> Jesus died for our sins. We are saved by Grace. We do nothing and can do nothing to deserve the Grace of God. It is a gift.



Agreed 



LadyRaider said:


> It is a beautiful gift that I am not worthy of having, but that He gave it to me anyway.



Again, I agree, and share this sentiment, Lady.



LadyRaider said:


> I'm not going to devalue that gift by thinking I'm some how more deserving that someone else.



I do not think I (or those who agree with what I'm saying) feel more deserving than anyone else. In fact, I am constantly amazed by God's mercy and grace. Each time I go to Church, we always begin worship by asking for Christ's mercy and for His forgiveness.



LadyRaider said:


> No one is more deserving than anyone else.



No one is more deserving, but that is not my argument. My argument is not that I deserve God's grace more than an adulterer, or homosexual, or abortionist. My argument is that the adulterer, homosexual, abortionists must heed God's call to repentance and completely turn away from their sins. We cannot love sin and love Christ at the same time. We cannot have two masters.



LadyRaider said:


> God knows we can't be perfect, He knows we are merely dust.



This should not be an excuse or license to sin though.



LadyRaider said:


> Nothing can separate us from the gift of God's love.



You have to keep that quote in its appropriate context. Obviously the souls in Hell are separated from God's love.



LadyRaider said:


> Our call as Christians? To be Christ in the world.



And what did Christ do? OBEY His Heavenly Father, WALKED the path of righteousness. Christ said go and sin no more.



LadyRaider said:


> And to care for the least of these.



Caring for the poor, the sick, the downtrodden is definitely a good thing, but this does not mean we should neglect the most important ills of our society--the ones that kill souls and send them to Hell.



LadyRaider said:


> There's no renunciation duties,



We are to renounce the world, renounce sin, renounce Satan.



LadyRaider said:


> no judgement duties listed. To be Christlike is to love.



God does not separate His love from His Justice. Loving us does not mean excusing our sins. Also, when we sin, we are saying to God that we are rejecting Him and His love.



LadyRaider said:


> Whose sin is worse than someone else's? How would I know? God knows, but I can't know. I know everyone is a sinner.



The Bible says (and I quoted this earlier) that there are sins not unto death, and then there are sins unto death (mortal sins). 

So there are clearly, according to the Bible, some sins that are more grave than others.



LadyRaider said:


> And you don't get to say, "but I'm trying not to sin, so I'm different" 1. I don't see how that matters because you are human and you WILL fail. and 2. You don't know what that gay person is thinking in his heart. We all have our struggles.



I may fail, but with God's grace I won't. Sinning is a symptom of being broken, when we are lacking God's sanctifying grace. However sinning is not intrinsic to human nature. What do I mean by this? That we don't sin BECAUSE we're human--we sin because we lack God's sanctifying grace. 

Let me give you an example of humans who lack personal sin:

1. Jesus Christ (who is fully God and fully human). Scripture says Christ was like us in every way except sin.
2. The Blessed Virgin Mary, who was conceived and born with God's sanctifying grace infused into her soul. In Luke 1:28 when the archangel Gabriel says "Hail, full of grace..." the "full of grace" is the Greek Kerecharitomene which means to possess the qualities of sanctifying grace.
3. Infants and children under the age of reason
4. The severely mentally disabled 
5. ETA--all saints in Heaven 



LadyRaider said:


> In Romans 7, the verse before Paul writes how we can not be separated from Jesus's love, he writes of his own sinful flesh. He writes how he can't control his sinful flesh. Yet he knows he is Christ's beloved.



You left out the part where Paul says that Jesus Christ's grace frees him from concupiscence. You also forget Paul's rhetorical question "Should we then sin, or sin more so that grace will abound?"



LadyRaider said:


> Politically, what's best for the United States is not always the Christian thing, though people tend to try and rationalize things. Politically, might makes right. The United States is the most powerful country in the world and its priority is to stay that way. That's not a Christian concern at all.



Insofar as we live in this society and vote in its leaders, Christians have a duty to resist laws, ideologies, etc. that counter both civil and moral good.



LadyRaider said:


> What government's duty is usually does NOT coincide with a Christian's duty.



A government's job is to enforce civil order and protect our life, liberty, and God-given rights. It does not and should not have authority over that which the Church has authority over, and that which the family has authority over. I believe government, Church, and family are three spheres of authority. I agree that governments can conflict with Christian values, and even persecute Christians, so government is not synonymous with our Faith.




LadyRaider said:


> PS: You quoted Leviticus earlier. Leviticus has some pretty stringent rules in there. Something about the sin of wearing two different fabrics?



I think you're confusing religious law with moral law. It seems as if you're dismissing the Old Testament teachings on the immorality of homosexuality based on Jewish religious law. This is incorrect. 

Religious law governed how adherents carried out and interacted with the tenets of the faith, and with Temple ceremony.

Moral Law is eternal, revealed directly by God, and does not change, because it reveals the moral truth of what is good and what is evil.


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## Galadriel (Apr 9, 2012)

LadyRaider said:


> This is a horrible analogy, but when Christians feel as if it is their role to renounce others, I can hear Jesus' voice like I hear the 911 dispatcher in the Zimmerman case: "We don't need you to do that."
> 
> But yeah, I think people here have said it so much better than I could. The government's role is far different than the church's role. I am against abortion and could counsel anyone not to do it. There are just too many places where that little soul is needed and can be loved. And who knows what kind of artist or teacher that baby might become. But I feel real uncomfortable with the government making women have babies they don't want.



You're right, it's a horrible analogy .
If murder is illegal, then why not the murder of unborn children?


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## Galadriel (Apr 9, 2012)

naturalgyrl5199 said:


> I just can't agree with you on that. But as many have said, its just too political. I am not pro-abortion and I never will be FOR the killing of babies. You just can't put everyone in one big box. Nor is it really fair.



They are the same thing. Especially if you vote for pro-abortion politicians, and vote YES on laws that perpetuate or spread abortion.



naturalgyrl5199 said:


> *Question: What right does a government have to tell you what to do with your body?*


 
The fetus is not her body, it is another person, and a life.


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## Galadriel (Apr 9, 2012)

nicola.kirwan said:


> There is a lot of picking and choosing of sins.  If we look at the 10 commandments in total, you not only have "Do not kill," there's also "Do not commit adultery."  When Paul runs down his list of those who will not inherit the Kingdom of God (I Cor. 6), plenty of sins are on there that Christians don't look to the government to punish.  The question is what things are appropriate for the government to address, not whether we believe that such and such is actually a sin in God's sight.
> 
> I believe the insistence of many Christians to get the government to police social morality reflects failure in the Church.  What congregations have been  unable to accomplish through evangelism and discipleship, they look to accomplish through the coercive power of the state.  We can look at the divorce rate, as well as the rate of pre-marital sex in evangelical churches (as well as scandals in other denominations) to see clearly that Christian leaders have, on the whole, not been able to bring the culture of their own churches into line with God, let alone the rest of society.  If those with the power of God cannot do it, Congress stands much less of a chance in doing so.
> 
> ...



I agree that our society and gov't reflect more or less what's in the collective hearts of many. True conversion of heart starts with ourselves, then our family and friends, etc. An immoral society with corrupt laws is the symptom of many unrepentant hearts.

However I do think Christians should care about and engage in civil society (i.e., voting, petitioning, supporting laws, etc.) for two main reasons:

1) To curb injustice



throughout history we have seen civil governments commit injustices. When a government passes an unjust law, or enact unjust mandates, it is our duty to resist and promote what is right. Whether it's the Christian abolitionists who defied slavery and fugitive slave laws, or the Christians who hid Jews in Nazi occupied territory, etc. the Body of Christ is sometimes the only counter to unjust and destructive forces in society.
If our values are truly internalized, it won't just show in how we conduct ourselves privately, but also publicly and in civil discourse.
When we do not participate in civil life, unjust laws often come back to bite us.

2) To have a voice in the public square to protect our religious liberty



It's all too easy for our rights and religious liberty to be curtailed, ignored, or attacked when we stay silent and stick our heads in the sand.
What do we do when the government passes a law that tells us we must do X (which we find to be wrong and undoable) or else face fines or go to jail? Or what about laws (such as in communist China) where adhering to our religion or possessing a Bible could be a death sentence?


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## Shimmie (Apr 9, 2012)

@Galadiel...

I just want to say thank you for sharing God's word with so much love and the truth.   

I'm typin from my phone so my post is limited. 

Nicola.kiran.... thank you too.     Sorry the short post and typos.


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## Shimmie (Apr 9, 2012)

@Galadiel...

I just want to say thank you for sharing God's word with so much love and the truth.   

I'm typin from my phone so my post is limited. 

Nicola.kiran.... thank you too.     Sorry the short post and typos.


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## LoveisYou (Apr 9, 2012)

Laws shape culture, culture shapes values and morals. In his time Jesus was publicly counter-cultural. So what would Jesus do and say about the political process? Hmnn...
Christians should Christians should publicly engage in the political process, the truth doesn't not only belong in the church, our world needs it. What better way to bring the truth to the table than through our lawmaking bodies?


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## Galadriel (Apr 9, 2012)

LoveisYou said:


> Laws shape culture, culture shapes values and morals. In his time Jesus was publicly counter-cultural. So what would Jesus do and say about the political process? Hmnn...
> Christians should Christians should publicly engage in the political process, the truth doesn't not only belong in the church, our world needs it. What better way to bring the truth to the table than through our lawmaking bodies?



I think the laws reveal the state of our culture, but I agree that we definitely have a stake in our laws and in our society.


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## naturalgyrl5199 (Apr 10, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> They are the same thing. Especially if you vote for pro-abortion politicians, and vote YES on laws that perpetuate or spread abortion.
> 
> 
> 
> The fetus is not her body, it is another person, and a life.


 
But in forcing her to do something she doesn't want to do, the government is still controlling her body and controlling her life. It will always come down to protecting the woman's rights or not.

What she decides to do with her body and what's in her body SHE will have to face that judgement...alone, not with a government saying "well we told her not to do it" and backing her up. Its none of their business.


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## naturalgyrl5199 (Apr 10, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> They are the same thing. Especially if you vote for pro-abortion politicians, and vote YES on laws that perpetuate or spread abortion.
> 
> 
> 
> The fetus is not her body, it is another person, and a life.


 
I would argue the same for politicians who are FOR war. This also involves the killing of innocents. Leaving me with the only real choice of not voting at all. The things I am interested in (public health, funds for the poor and programs for this) tends to mean voting for pro-CHOICE polititians---not voting for them means I would most likely abandon the needs of the very poor, and I'm not willing to do that. (Ex. Fund for Planned Parenthood, also funds free Mammograms for the poor.....) Once again, any law can be created...but whomever chooses to do the least expedient thing (legal abortion) must stand in judgement of that choice. *As Christians, do we need a law against adultery too?* Because this evil is no worse than murder in the eyes of the Lord. And I'd vote for it! We don't need a law for every commandment. Our commandments come from the Lord.


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