# Is 4b hair DESIGNED to be SHORT?



## alive (Aug 16, 2010)

I hope this does not offend anyone but I have 4b hair that is slightly past my shoulders and this is a question that has been on my mind lately.

Left in its natural state, 
1.	it tangles incredibly easily leading to breakage
2.	it is on the drier end of the spectrum
3.	cuticles need help to stay down
4.	it shrinks, giving the appearance of short hair
5.	it’s the most fragile hair type

I love my hair in its natural state but *the longer it gets, the more I wonder whether I am fighting against nature.* In order to maintain long natural hair, it seems that we  need to make our hair straighter/stretched using  twists, braids, relaxers, or heat. 
So my question is, 

*is type 4 hair SHORT by DESIGN? *

I really want to hear your thoughts on this in case  I’m missing something


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## Nayna (Aug 16, 2010)

If it was designed to be short it would stay short. I think all hair needs to be maintined in a certain way when you are trying to achieve a certain look with it.


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## [email protected]@ (Aug 16, 2010)

I doubt that our hair type is _meant_ to be short. It's like asking if skin is meant to be dry. God made us dry but has also given us remedies: Butters, Oils and Water. It does get  but half of the fun is learning what works for us. 
Stick it out. you'll meet your goals


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## NaturalRed (Aug 16, 2010)

I think if more 4's knew how to care for their hair, it would grow just as long as everyone elses.  There are too many examples of 4's with long hair on the internet and youtube to believe that we can't grow it.


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## Harina (Aug 16, 2010)

I think it is much easier to keep it short then it is to keep it long. I think it has short tendencies. I think if it wasn't for Western influences, most black people with 4b hair wouldn't care about long hair because it isn't as easily achieved and seems like more of a hassle. In that sense, yes I think it is designed to remain fairly short. Fortunately, we live in a world where something's original way of being can easily be manipulated with knowledge and care.


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## Esthi777 (Aug 16, 2010)

No, I don't think it's designed to be short. I don't have 4b hair but I believe all hair grows. My best friends hair is 4zzz and relaxed and it's APL. It's all about what you do to retain length. My hair doesn't need a relaxer. It's curly but grows in straight and I was practically bald because I wasn't taking care of my hair.  I think people feel my hair should be long because of it's texture but bottom line, no matter what texture, hair can be long if maintained properly


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## LaidBak (Aug 16, 2010)

I don't think its an offensive question.  I have wondered the same thing myself.  I agree that it takes manipulation of some sort for 4B hair to grow long, but I don't think you are necessarily _fighting_ nature.  Its just harder for us.


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## Harina (Aug 16, 2010)

LaidBak said:


> I don't think its an offensive question.  I have wondered the same thing myself.  I agree that it takes manipulation of some sort for 4B hair to grow long, but I don't think you are necessarily _fighting_ nature.  Its just harder for us.



OT- Your cornrows in your siggy are very pretty!! Did you do those yourself?


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## Nonie (Aug 16, 2010)

May I introduce you to our beloved Sera. She has type 4B hair that obviously isn't meant to be short:  http://www.youtube.com/sera2544

ETA: I do not think Western influences are why we grow 4B hair long. If you ever read the book _Hair Story_ you will discover what a glory African hair was, how elaborately it was worn long, and how proud Africans were to show it off, way before white folks intruded on their land. It may also help you understand why it is that slaves were so ashamed of their 4B hair. They had never in all their lives worn it un-groomed and here they were with no combs and no time to tend to it. So they wore scarves or shaved it off, because they were used to having long hair, but not long hair that was unkempt. 4B hair got a bad rap not because it's the worst kind of hair there is, but because it was hair that those who had it were used to wearing it in smart dos, but found themselves w/o tools to do so, and it brought shame to not work it like they were able to back in their homeland. 

If you scroll down the first pages of _Hair Story_ to page 2,  you will see one hairstyle from back in the day: http://www.amazon.com/Hair-Story-Un...=UTF8&qid=1281972818&sr=1-1#reader_0312283229 which isn't short. And there are more images in the book.


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## jennboo (Aug 16, 2010)

Interesting question.

I'm inclined to think that it IS designed to appear compact  due to the shrinkage factor. No matter how long 4b hair grows (could be waist-length), it will still shrink up to a head/face framing afro form where it doesn't necessarily "hang" (provided it has not been heat damaged)....nothing wrong with that though.


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## Naturae (Aug 16, 2010)

I agree with the ladies, it has everything to do with how you care for what you have. Hair growth is based a lot on cause and effect, not just genetics.
There are so many type 4 WL inspirations on LHCF and God is too good for me to believe otherwise.


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## SingBrina (Aug 16, 2010)

I have 4b hair, its relaxed..... I know it is harder to work with when its in its natural state, I know this because I was trying to grow my natural hair out but had to re-relax it because it was becoming difficult to have to use a pressing comb first then flat iron. Now I just flat iron and save like 30/40mins and less heat on my hair.

However, I have never had a prob with my hair not growing


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## RubyWoo (Aug 16, 2010)

This a great topic and I hope more respond.  I see where you're coming from OP and I think you make some interesting points.  It does appear to me that in order to retain length, one must keep their hair stretched in order to prevent tangling and SSKs.  If I was to keep my hair in it's natural state (shrunken and unmanipulated) I do believe that I wouldn't be able to retain length as opposed to when I keep my hair in stretched state.  I believe I would get a lot more breakage due to tangling issues. So I do believe that there is some validity to believe that natural 4b hair is meant to be short if left in it's natural, unmanipulated state.  That doesn't mean we can't achieve length. It just means we have to style it some way to retain length.

The longer my natural hair gets, the more challenging it is to deal with.  I can see why some people go the relaxer or heat route in order to achieve length.  I have had thoughts of cutting  my natural hair and keeping short just because it's easy to deal with and I like the way it looks on me. Maybe one of these days as it was one of my favorite styles.  For now, my current goal will be no longer than BSL/MBL and I don't plan to go back to relaxing.

I'm looking forward to seeing what others have to say.


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## alive (Aug 16, 2010)

I'm really enjoying the diversity of perspectives in this thread. Just to clarify, when I say designed to be short, I don't mean that it won't grow or that the length cannot be retained. I'm referring to the ease of keeping it short versus growing it long.

So far, I'm getting the sense that it boils down to how we take care of our hair. Keep it coming ladies


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## Foxglove (Aug 16, 2010)

It's not designed to be short, it just needs more maintenance which not many people are willing to learn


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## alive (Aug 16, 2010)

Nixx said:


> This a great topic and I hope more respond.  I see where you're coming from OP and I think you make some interesting points.  It does appear to me that in order to retain length, one must keep their hair stretched in order to prevent tangling and SSKs.  If I was to keep my hair in it's natural state (shrunken and unmanipulated) I do believe that I wouldn't be able to retain length as opposed to when I keep my hair in stretched state.  I believe I would get a lot more breakage due to tangling issues. So I do believe that there is some validity to believe that natural 4b hair is meant to be short if left in it's natural, unmanipulated state.  That doesn't mean we can't achieve length. It just means we have to style it some way to retain length.
> 
> The longer my natural hair gets, the more challenging it is to deal with.  I can see why some people go the relaxer or heat route in order to achieve length.  I have had thoughts of cutting  my natural hair and keeping short just because it's easy to deal with and I like the way it looks on me. Maybe one of these days as it was one of my favorite styles.  For now, my current goal will be no longer than BSL/MBL and I don't plan to go back to relaxing.
> 
> I'm looking forward to seeing what others have to say.



Thank you, Nixx. This captures exactly what I'm getting at. I know my hair can grow long and healthy without chemicals but it does seem to take more effort and the very nature/physical characteristics of my hair type seem to lead to breakage (which is not necessarily a bad thing)


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## lovenharmony (Aug 16, 2010)

Um, I'd ask all the long haired natural 4Bs that question


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## charmtreese (Aug 16, 2010)

Nonie said:


> May I introduce you to our beloved Sera. She has type 4B hair that obviously isn't meant to be short:  http://www.youtube.com/sera2544
> 
> ETA: I do not think Western influences are why we grow 4B hair long. If you ever read the book _Hair Story_ you will discover what a glory African hair was, how elaborately it was worn long, and how proud Africans were to show it off, way before white folks intruded on their land. It may also help you understand why it is that slaves were so ashamed of their 4B hair. They had never in all their lives worn it un-groomed and here they were with no combs and no time to tend to it. So they wore scarves or shaved it off, because they were used to having long hair, but not long hair that was unkempt. 4B hair got a bad rap not because it's the worst kind of hair there is, but because it was hair that those who had it were used to wearing it in smart dos, but found themselves w/o tools to do so, and it brought shame to not work it like they were able to back in their homeland.
> 
> If you scroll down the first pages of _Hair Story_ to page 2,  you will see one hairstyle from back in the day: http://www.amazon.com/Hair-Story-Un...=UTF8&qid=1281972818&sr=1-1#reader_0312283229 which isn't short. And there are more images in the book.



Thanks for posting this Nonie. I just ordered the book it looks like a great read!!


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## Foxglove (Aug 16, 2010)

alive said:


> I'm really enjoying the diversity of perspectives in this thread. Just to clarify, when I say designed to be short, I don't mean that it won't grow or that the length cannot be retained. I'm referring to the ease of keeping it short versus growing it long.
> 
> So far, I'm getting the sense that it boils down to how we take care of our hair. Keep it coming ladies



For me longer is easier. I was always a ponytail/bun type of gal, even when relaxed or in braids. I generally pull my hair back and it would be easiest if my hair was long enough to put in a puff or preferably a bun.


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## SimJam (Aug 16, 2010)

no .... 4b hair is meant to be as long as we allow it to be !!!!

This is a pic of me @ 10 .... all the way back in the early 80's when my poor Mom had to deal with my big ole head of hair. And even without a "regimen", fancy organic sulphate free yadda yadda yadda, butters, oils, daily moisturizing and sealing, caring for ends etc, my hair was long (by most standrds) and thick. My hair is in 4 plaits here.








products used ... shampoo and dax grease. My hair was washed every sunday and combed for the week in either 2 or 4 plaits, wore a scarf (cotton btw) to tie down hair each night. 

So in essense my hair was left to do what it wanted to do - of course while offering it the basic grooming and hygenic requirements.

*I fully intend to reach this length and longer ... and when i do I will post this pic @ 10years old and my hair in the same style and doing the lil jig I was doing when the pic was taken.

I wont be able to fit into my prep school uniform though DWL*


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## SimJam (Aug 16, 2010)

Foxglove said:


> For me longer is easier. I was always a ponytail/bun type of gal, even when relaxed or in braids. I generally pull my hair back and it would be easiest if my hair was long enough to put in a puff or preferably a bun.


 
exactly ... yes Ive always found that longer hair is easier to maintain, mainly b/c u can bun, french roll etc


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## Tiye (Aug 16, 2010)

alive said:


> I hope this does not offend anyone but I have 4b hair that is slightly past my shoulders and this is a question that has been on my mind lately.
> 
> Left in its natural state,
> 1.    it tangles incredibly easily leading to breakage
> ...



Any hair professional will tell you that *all* hair needs work. I believe that hair can be trained to do anything. And this board is a good starting resource for tips and techniques that will help you overcome any of the problems on your list.

1.    it tangles incredibly easily leading to breakage - learn the correct way to use combs and brushes for your hair type and this goes away. go to youtube and watch videos ... and watch the pros too not just the diy'ers. read books. you will pick up things.
2.    it is on the drier end of the spectrum - lots of good tips here for oils, conditioners and other moisturizers for every hair type - including 4b. When you hit the right combo your hair won't be dry.
3.    cuticles need help to stay down - see number 2. that's what conditioners are for. If hair still feels a bit rough -  use a flat iron to smooth them (the cuticles) down and they will stay down till you wet it again. heat averse/allergic? - use a warm flat iron.
4.    it shrinks, giving the appearance of short hair - keep it stretched.
5.    it’s the most fragile hair type - if you eat a healthy diet, supplement as needed, and follow the right conditioning regimen then your hair will not be fragile. People come here all the time asking for a regimen - but there is no one size fits all that can be delivered without one on one consultation so if you wanna use this board as a resource you also have to be willing to experiment and there will be some trial and error.  See number 2.


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## Nonie (Aug 16, 2010)

alive said:


> I'm really enjoying the diversity of perspectives in this thread. Just to clarify, when I say designed to be short, I don't mean that it won't grow or that the length cannot be retained. I'm referring to the ease of keeping it short versus growing it long.
> 
> So far, I'm getting the sense that it boils down to how we take care of our hair. Keep it coming ladies



I think the difficulty with 4B hair comes about when people try to make it do what is not normal to it. I am having the easiest journey ever. I'm not retaining as well as I could, coz I'm not doing sh**, yet my hair is growing w/o a doubt. Coz even with the breakage I get due to not protective styling or sealing, in 3 years, I've gotten here from starting with about 3 inches in 2007.

I think shrinkage goes back to the need for people living in hot Africa to stay cool around their necks and shoulders...and also the shrinkage provides a canopy-like compact shield from the sun so our brains don't get fried. It's all in the genius of our Maker.

In fact, I think the fact that 4B hair is delicate and holds styles for so long is a "hint" at what we need to do with it: Put it in some pretty style and leave it the heck alone. Those with slippery can't-hold-a-do hair are the ones meant to wear it out daily coz it won't do anything else for very long anyway. Now 4B-ers err when instead of making the most of this wonderful, obedient mane, and doing right by it and wearing it in unique styles that could stay neat for as long as we aren't bored with them, we keep bugging the heck out of it. 

Look at Mwedzi... I remember when she'd be so frustrated with her hair. But the minute she stopped manipulating it and found ways to style it that aren't abusive to it, her hair exploded and she got to MBL in the blink of an eye.


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## CherryCherryBoomBoom (Aug 16, 2010)

I know what you mean OP, I'm forever having difficulty with mine . Oh well, best keep my chin up, it can't be that possible after all the long haired ladies I keep seeing on here with my hair type.


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## RubyWoo (Aug 16, 2010)

For those of you saying longer is easier, at what length would you say it gets easier with respect to natural hair?  Also, would you say detangling longer natural hair is easier? Why?

My hair is SL(some strands are close to APL) and detangling was easier when my hair was short(under 5 inches).  I didn't have to comb my hair and I could get away with finger detangling.  With longer hair, I have to wash in sections and detangling takes time and patience. I have to use a comb or I will have tangling, knots and breakage.  It's not necessarily harder (depends on your perception/experience) but it does take more time.  I guess it depends on what is important to you and the amount of time one is willing to invest to achieve their desired look/length.


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## alive (Aug 16, 2010)

Nonie said:


> also the shrinkage provides a canopy-like compact shield from the sun so our brains don't get fried. It's all in the genius of our Maker.
> 
> *In fact, I think the fact that 4B hair is delicate and holds styles for so long is a "hint" at what we need to do with it:*




Nonie, I felt like a light bulb literally exploded in my head when i read the bolded. Maybe our hair is not *short* by design. Maybe it is meant to be *left alone* by design!  No wonder that's the biggest thing all the long haired naturals have in common--they do a lot of protective styles

I knew I'd get new perspectives from this thread. Thank you, ladies. I'm sure alot of other people have some great insights to share. I can see this thread turning into a celebration of 4b natural hair. It's easy to focus on the frustrating things about our hair but this post has inspired me to think of my hair as a protective canopy instead of a mass of tangles


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## alive (Aug 16, 2010)

Nixx said:


> For those of you saying longer is easier, at what length would you say it gets easier with respect to natural hair?  Also, would you say detangling longer natural hair is easier? Why?
> 
> My hair is SL(some strands are close to APL) and detangling was easier when my hair was short(under 5 inches).  I didn't have to comb my hair and I could get away with finger detangling.  With longer hair, I have to wash in sections and detangling takes time and patience. I have to use a comb or I will have tangling, knots and breakage.  It's not necessarily harder (depends on your perception/experience) but it does take more time.  I guess it depends on what is important to you and the amount of time one is willing to invest to achieve their desired look/length.



I would like to know the answer to this question as well. 

I feel my hair is easier now that it's past SL because if i try a new hair style and it backfires, i can easily throw it into a bunny tail and go about my business; whereas, if my hair were any shorter, i would have a crisis on my hands. 

My hair isn't really easier to detangle though so maybe people are referring to more styling options and backup styles like buns and french rolls


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## kmn1980 (Aug 16, 2010)

I know what you mean OP. I don't think it's designed to be short. I think it's designed to be compact pursuant to the climate.


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## Junebug D (Aug 16, 2010)

I think our hair is designed to loc. And locs get long.  Anything contrary to that is fighting against this hair type, IMHO.  If your hair isn't dense and/or thick like Sera's and you're not locked, I think the odds are against you getting to WL.  There are & will always be exceptions though, but that's just my conclusion from my own observations.


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## RubyWoo (Aug 16, 2010)

alive said:


> I would like to know the answer to this question as well.
> 
> I feel my hair is easier now that it's past SL because if i try a new hair style and it backfires, i can easily throw it into a bunny tail and go about my business; whereas, if my hair were any shorter, i would have a crisis on my hands.
> 
> My hair isn't really easier to detangle though so maybe people are referring to more styling options and backup styles like buns and french rolls


 
Yes, you're right.  Styling wise longer is easier and ultimately that's why I want longer hair.  For the versatility in styling options.  Maintenance is a different story.


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## alive (Aug 16, 2010)

Junebug D said:


> I think our hair is designed to loc. And locs get long.  Anything contrary to that is fighting against this hair type, IMHO.  If your hair isn't dense and/or thick like Sera's and you're not locked, I think the odds are against you getting to WL.  There are & will always be exceptions though, but that's just my conclusion from my own observations.



 i think you just opened a new can of worms but i completely  understand what you mean. last week, i was spritzing my hair religiously only to take down my cornrows and discover that half my hair was matted and forming locs without my permission.  it took a minute to take it all down and unloc it but now i know better. 

You just might be right. locs might be another thing our hair likes to do on its own


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## Imani (Aug 16, 2010)

Nonie said:


> *I think the difficulty with 4B hair comes about when people try to make it do what is not normal to it.* I am having the easiest journey ever. I'm not retaining as well as I could, coz I'm not doing sh**, yet my hair is growing w/o a doubt. Coz even with the breakage I get due to not protective styling or sealing, in 3 years, I've gotten here from starting with about 3 inches in 2007.
> 
> I think shrinkage goes back to the need for people living in hot Africa to stay cool around their necks and shoulders...and also the shrinkage provides a canopy-like compact shield from the sun so our brains don't get fried. It's all in the genius of our Maker.
> 
> ...


 
I agree with this 100%.


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## Harina (Aug 16, 2010)

Junebug D said:


> I think our hair is designed to loc. And locs get long.  Anything contrary to that is fighting against this hair type, IMHO.  If your hair isn't dense and/or thick like Sera's and you're not locked, I think the odds are against you getting to WL.  There are & will always be exceptions though, but that's just my conclusion from my own observations.



I feel like I always ask this question because people use these words for different things but when you say "thick" you're talking about the strand of hair or the density as well.



Nonie said:


> May I introduce you to our beloved Sera. She has type 4B hair that obviously isn't meant to be short:  http://www.youtube.com/sera2544
> 
> ETA*: I do not think Western influences are why we grow 4B hair long. *If you ever read the book _Hair Story_ you will discover what a glory African hair was, how elaborately it was worn long, and how proud Africans were to show it off, way before white folks intruded on their land. It may also help you understand why it is that slaves were so ashamed of their 4B hair. They had never in all their lives worn it un-groomed and here they were with no combs and no time to tend to it. So they wore scarves or shaved it off, because they were used to having long hair, but not long hair that was unkempt. 4B hair got a bad rap not because it's the worst kind of hair there is, but because it was hair that those who had it were used to wearing it in smart dos, but found themselves w/o tools to do so, and it brought shame to not work it like they were able to back in their homeland.
> .



Maybe I should have said long and straight hair.


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## Eclass215 (Aug 16, 2010)

Nonie said:


> *I think shrinkage goes back to the need for people living in hot Africa to stay cool around their necks and shoulders...and also the shrinkage provides a canopy-like compact shield from the sun so our brains don't get fried. It's all in the genius of our Maker.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> This is exactly what I was thinking.  Along the same lines of how we have darker skin and more melanin to protect us from the hot African sun, our hair texture probably serves the same type of purpose. We are all made in different ways for different reasons - so I do think that 4B hair was designed for a purpose, be it short or long - it's coilly nature has something to do with our original environment and nature IMO.


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## curlyninjagirl (Aug 16, 2010)

Mwedzi. 'Nuff said!


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## lucky8502 (Aug 16, 2010)

Good thread OP I was actually wondering the same thing yesterday ( after a full day of detangling and styling my hair)


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## Janet' (Aug 16, 2010)

Interesting perspectives...


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## SimJam (Aug 16, 2010)

Nixx said:


> For those of you saying longer is easier, at what length would you say it gets easier with respect to natural hair? Also, would you say detangling longer natural hair is easier? Why?


 
*when my hair was shorter I was not able to make big chunky twists that wud stay in tact during washing etc, that is key at least for me.*


well my hair is only just abt SL now and it took me 15 mins to detangle over the weekend ... this is down from almost 45 mins, and I truely stumbled upon the technique

1. I DCd on dry hair overnight (I had in twists, I pulled out abt 10 twists at a time and applied the DC mix and twisted into a big twist)
2. woke up, hair was soft like buttah, pulled out each twist and finger detangled then used my denman on each section the twisted back up

step 2 took only 15 - 20 mins

then I co-washed and did everything else while my hair was in twists so my hair stayed detangled.

I wud imagine once i have more length, it will take longer to detange only b/c there is more hair to detange but not because its more tangled/matted etc.


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## Junebug D (Aug 16, 2010)

Riverrock said:


> I feel like I always ask this question because people use these words for different things but when you say "thick" you're talking about the strand of hair or the density as well.



I mentioned both thick and dense in my post, but "thick" refers to the strand diameter.  I think density may play the larger role in retention, however.  That's just speculation from my own observations, though.


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## alive (Aug 16, 2010)

Eclass215 said:


> our hair texture probably serves the same type of purpose. We are all made in different ways for different reasons - so I do think that 4B hair was designed for a purpose, be it short or long - it's coilly nature has something to do with our original environment and nature IMO.



this is nothing but the truth  textured hair is to unique that I truly believe that there is a reason for every one of its features. i remember reading a post on here the other day where someone said maybe 4b hair is naturally dry because most of our ancestors that had that same hair type lived in humid regions in Africa. Don't remember who said it, but I thought that comment was absolutely brilliant.



lucky8502 said:


> Good thread OP I was actually wondering the same thing yesterday ( after a full day of detangling and styling my hair)





SimJam said:


> 1. I DCd on dry hair overnight (I had in twists, I pulled out abt 10 twists at a time and applied the DC mix and twisted into a big twist)
> 2. woke up, hair was soft like buttah, pulled out each twist and finger detangled then used my denman on each section the twisted back up
> 
> step 2 took only 15 - 20 mins
> ...



oooh i like this idea. so do you do any type of detangling before putting the DC on your hair? or do you just ignore the tangles till the next day?


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## RubyWoo (Aug 16, 2010)

SimJam said:


> *when my hair was shorter I was not able to make big chunky twists that wud stay in tact during washing etc, that is key at least for me.*
> 
> 
> well my hair is only just abt SL now and it took me 15 mins to detangle over the weekend ... this is down from almost 45 mins, and I truely stumbled upon the technique
> ...



@the bolded...soo true!

I also wash and deep conditioner my hair in chunky twists now and it has made detangling my hair a lot easier and less stressful.  I had serious challenges when I was washing my hair loose.


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## Harina (Aug 16, 2010)

Junebug D said:


> I mentioned both thick and dense in my post, but "thick" refers to the strand diameter.  I think density may play the larger role in retention, however.  That's just speculation from my own observations, though.



Oh, I saw that. I thought you were just emphasizing "density." That's an interesting theory. I've always thought the opposite that the thickness of the strand is more important. If all your strands are fragile and thin (like mine), it doesn't matter how much of them you have (like me), the strands will break leading to short hair. If your strands are thicker (which I tend to think of as stronger, less prone to breakage. Maybe this is incorrect?), the density does not matter, you'll still have long hair though it won't be as voluminous as some one who has dense hair. I think that's why black hair doesn't retain as easily. Our strands tend to be finer with less cuticle layers. Like spaghetti vs a lead pipe. I think it's all in the strands.


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## qchelle (Aug 16, 2010)

I'm liking the responses 

I wonder what our big lips and wide/flat noses are for? hmmm...??? Anybody wanna take a stab at it? I'm curious.....(or I could just google it  )


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## FebeeSigns (Aug 16, 2010)

No hair TYPE is designed to be short. However, certain people's hair is designed to be short simply because of genetics. All of us have terminal length. That is the length we just stop growing and cannot go past because of our genes. Many people try to prove this by saying things like "well if your mom and dad and everyone in your family has short hair, most likely you'll have short hair too that can't grow long" which is silly since perhaps they're just ignorant about how to retain and maintain. If majority of people in your family have short hair that does not mean you are destined for it. The only way to find out would be taking a genetics test.


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## MilkChocolateOne (Aug 16, 2010)

I see a lot of people are missing the original poster's point.  She never said that 4b hair doesn't grow and she never said that it was impossible for 4b to retain length.  She didn't mention anything about terminal length either.


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## LovingLady (Aug 16, 2010)

Type 4 hair is as fragile because of the area our ancestors grew up in. Africa is a very hot continent (especially since the equator runs through it). In order for the Africans to survive the heat their hair can't be too long. This would be one of the explanations as to why our hair shrinks up so much, why it is naturally dry, and why it is so fragile. If black people where in Europe we would have type 1 or maybe even type 2 hair. The reason for this is because of the cold climate, thier hair would be used as a form of protection (a way to keep them warm) during the winter. 

Regardless of the type of hair you have, you have to manipulate it is some form in order to properly take care of it.


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## FebeeSigns (Aug 16, 2010)

MilkChocolateOne said:


> I see a lot of people are missing the original poster's point.  She never said that 4b hair doesn't grow and she never said that it was impossible for 4b to retain length.  She didn't mention anything about terminal length either.



Op said;
So my question is, 

*is type 4 hair SHORT by DESIGN?

*Just because the OP did not mention anything about terminal length does not mean I cannot discuss it. It is a part of my response that I saw fit to type. I don't believe I am missing the point. I do believe that people can respond in way that fits their perception of the question asked.​


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## kmn1980 (Aug 16, 2010)

qchelle said:


> I'm liking the responses
> 
> I wonder what our big lips and wide/flat noses are for? hmmm...??? Anybody wanna take a stab at it? I'm curious.....(or I could just google it  )



Apparently, once people began to migrate into colder temperatures, their skin lightened, hair became stringier, and noses thinned to withstand the cold air. I don't know if it's ever happened to you (it has to me) when you are in extremely cold wind, it kind of takes your breath away for a moment. Apparently, the aquiline features are supposed to combat that.


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## alive (Aug 16, 2010)

Abdijz said:


> Type 4 hair is as fragile because of the area our ancestors grew up in. Africa is a very hot continent (especially since the equator runs through it). In order for the Africans to survive the heat their hair can't be too long. This would be one of the explanations as to why our hair shrinks up so much, why it is naturally dry, and why it is so fragile. If black people where in Europe we would have type 1 or maybe even type 2 hair. The reason for this is because of the cold climate, thier hair would be used as a form of protection (a way to keep them warm) during the winter.
> 
> Regardless of the type of hair you have, you have to manipulate it is some form in order to properly take care of it.



very good points, Abdijz
One of the reasons i thought it was important to ask this question is that i have noticed that the more i understand the nature of my hair and the reasons for its physical characteristics, the more i love it. when all is said and done, i absolutely love my hair and I am enjoying the experience of seeing it flourish--kinks, curls, frizz, knots and all


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## Nonie (Aug 16, 2010)

qchelle said:


> I'm liking the responses
> 
> I wonder what our big lips and wide/flat noses are for? hmmm...??? Anybody wanna take a stab at it? I'm curious.....(or I could just google it  )



The lips kiss better and more sensually, show expressions more clearly from afar, and are so beautiful too, and we could afford to have them without risking them freezing to death and turning blue because our climate allowed us to have it all. If full lips weren't beautiful, you wouldn't be seeing all the cosmetic procedures or lipsticks for plumping lips up that seem to be the rave these days. 

The short, wide nose enable us to breathe better, speak more clearly without nasal interference, and to drink out of a full calabash without drowning. And as Kmn1980 said, we could afford to have a wide, easy-to-breathe nose because we didn't live in a cold environment that required us to keep our noses slightly closed.


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## MilkChocolateOne (Aug 16, 2010)

KaramelKurly said:


> Op said;
> So my question is,
> 
> *is type 4 hair SHORT by DESIGN?
> ...





 The op didn't ask if type 4 hair was short by design.  She asked if type 4 hair is designed to be short.  It may seem like a matter of semantics but the way her question was worded makes all the difference.   Type 4 hair shrinks on itself, it grows up and out as opposed to down, due to it's shape type 4 hair is prone to dryness.  To retain length most type 4s have to do things to their hair that goes against it's natural tendencies (keep it confined in protective styles, keep the length stretched, braid, band, twist, relax, use heat etc...)After a certain length, I don't see many type fours that just wash and go (shrunken afro) retaining a lot length. To retain length most type fours have to alter the shape of their hair.


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## RegaLady (Aug 16, 2010)

I think so, in fact I have always thought so.  Not saying it is imposible for 4b hair to grow, but I have always thought of it to grow APL and below to be well...unnatural.  Now my mother has 4a/b TBL hair and she never manipulates it which is why it grows so long.

I am also factoring in how long it takes to grow to also show that 4b hair may be designed to be short. Short hair is not bad to have. Many African women have short hair.  I also think it is designed to be short because unlike white women or Asians or whoever, I think black women look better than any other race, in short hair.  I do also agree if it weren't for European conditioning, alot of us would be wearing short hair and be okay with it.


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## Nonie (Aug 16, 2010)

MilkChocolateOne said:


> I see a lot of people are missing the original poster's point.  She never said that 4b hair doesn't grow and she never said that it was impossible for 4b to retain length.  She didn't mention anything about terminal length either.



I think if 4B hair was designed to be short, it'd get to a certain length and then just break off because something in its design would prevent it from being able to support the weight of its new length. I do think by designed it's supposed to curl back down no matter what its length for the temperature control and scalp protection already mentioned.

By design, eyelashes, eyebrows, and hair on your skin are supposed to stay short which is why you very rarely see people covered in long hair from head to toe looking like baboons. When you do see a hairy person, they are more of a freak than the norm.


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## LaidBak (Aug 16, 2010)

Riverrock said:


> OT- Your cornrows in your siggy are very pretty!! Did you do those yourself?



Thanks!  Those are actually flat twists that were wound into a bun at the nape.  I had them done at the salon.  Great protective style!


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## Nonie (Aug 16, 2010)

MilkChocolateOne said:


> The op didn't ask if type 4 hair was short by design.  She asked if type 4 hair is designed to be short.  It may seem like a matter of semantics but the way her question was worded makes all the difference.   Type 4 hair shrinks on itself, it grows up and out as opposed to down, due to it's shape type 4 hair is prone to dryness.  To retain length most type 4s have to do things to their hair that goes against it's natural tendencies (keep it confined in protective styles, keep the length stretched, braid, band, twist, relax, use heat etc...)After a certain length, I don't see many type fours that just wash and go (shrunken afro) retaining a lot length. *To retain length most type fours have to alter the shape of their hair*.



*Not true*. There are enough people with locs who don't do ish to their hair, that means not even trying to make the locs look cute, but just letting them do their thing. IMO 4B hair breaks because of abuse not because it is designed to break and stay short.

Perhaps a better statement would be 4B hair is designed to stay shrunken.


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## NAPPYCHICK86 (Aug 16, 2010)

interesting topic OP. I dont think any hairtype is designed to be short but I do think protective styling makes all the difference when it comes to type 4 hair. Just my .02.


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## MilkChocolateOne (Aug 16, 2010)

Nonie said:


> *Not true*. There are enough people with locs who don't do ish to their hair, that means not even trying to make the locs look cute, but just letting them do their thing. IMO 4B hair breaks because of abuse not because it is designed to break and stay short.





   are you talking about free form locks because retwisting locks at the root count as manipulation that aids in retention. 

 quick question: Would a wash and grow afro eventually form free form locks if left unmanipulated?


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## SimJam (Aug 16, 2010)

SimJam said:


> well my hair is only just abt SL now and it took me 15 mins to detangle over the weekend ... this is down from almost 45 mins, and I truely stumbled upon the technique
> 
> 1. I DCd on dry hair overnight (I had in twists, I pulled out abt 10 twists at a time and applied the DC mix and twisted into a big twist)
> 2. woke up, hair was soft like buttah, pulled out each twist and finger detangled then used my denman on each section the twisted back up


 


alive said:


> oooh i like this idea. so do you do any type of detangling before putting the DC on your hair? or do you just ignore the tangles till the next day?


 
no detangling, I basically "shingled" in the DC  I didnt try to separate any tangles at that time. 

The beauty of it is that after marinating in the DC all night, I hardy had any tangles to deal with in the morning and most importantly the slip was awesome.


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## Nonie (Aug 16, 2010)

Nixx said:


> For those of you saying longer is easier, at what length would you say it gets easier with respect to natural hair?  Also, would you say detangling longer natural hair is easier? Why?
> 
> My hair is SL(some strands are close to APL) and detangling was easier when my hair was short(under 5 inches).  I didn't have to comb my hair and I could get away with finger detangling.  With longer hair, I have to wash in sections and detangling takes time and patience. I have to use a comb or I will have tangling, knots and breakage.  It's not necessarily harder (depends on your perception/experience) but it does take more time.  I guess it depends on what is important to you and the amount of time one is willing to invest to achieve their desired look/length.




Nixx, I think as you get more familiar with your hair, you start to realize that tangling doesn't have to be part of the process. The last time I had to detangle my hair was once in 2008. Before that, I honestly don't remember. And I only ever use a comb to comb out my afro, otherwise if that's not the style I'm going for, then I finger comb all the time. 

When I do wear my hair out, I wear it in an afro puff every day and plait it every night. Every morning, I comb it with ease and tangles never feature into the program. At night, I finger part and comb and plait, then baggy. My lube is S Curl alone. If I don't put it into braids or twists for longterm, I wash it in plaits but there's no detangling at all necessary, just combing through fully detangled hair. Why, coz it never gets tangled in the first place.

When hair is longer, you need fewer braids to keep it detangled when you say goodnight to it, and it takes less time to undo and comb them out. I guess I can't address detangling because it's no a process I find myself doing. Didn't do it when my hair was shorter and don't do it now.


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## keelioness (Aug 16, 2010)

alive said:


> Nonie, I felt like a light bulb literally exploded in my head when i read the bolded. Maybe our hair is not *short* by design. Maybe it is meant to be *left alone* by design!  No wonder that's the biggest thing all the long haired naturals have in common--they do a lot of protective styles
> 
> I knew I'd get new perspectives from this thread. Thank you, ladies. I'm sure alot of other people have some great insights to share. I can see this thread turning into a celebration of 4b natural hair. It's easy to focus on the frustrating things about our hair but this post has inspired me to think of my hair as a protective canopy instead of a mass of tangles


 

You guys are both right ..It is meant to be left alone.. Its funny how loc'd naturals don't have issues with breakage etc. that loose naturals do.. Maybe our hair is meant to be loc'd?


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## SimJam (Aug 16, 2010)

alive said:


> Left in its natural state,
> 1.    it tangles incredibly easily leading to breakage
> 2.    it is on the drier end of the spectrum
> 3.    cuticles need help to stay down
> ...


 


Nonie said:


> *Perhaps a better statement would be 4B hair is designed to stay shrunken*.


 
I think nonie has hit the nail on the head re:the appropriate wording of the question.

that being said, I believe everyones hair needs to be groomed and maintained in some way, now how we do that I guess is the crux of the matter


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## Tiye (Aug 16, 2010)

qchelle said:


> I'm liking the responses
> 
> I wonder what our big lips and wide/flat noses are for? hmmm...??? Anybody wanna take a stab at it? I'm curious.....(or I could just google it  )



Since many geneticists and evolutionary scientists have tried and failed to come up with coherent answers for centuries I doubt that the code will be cracked on a hair board. And please don't google it - you'll just get nonsense.  But feel free to do make it a full out research project using academic sources and don't post it here for free - publish it and get yourself a good faculty job someplace.



KaramelKurly said:


> No hair TYPE is designed to be short. However, certain people's hair is designed to be short simply because of genetics. All of us have terminal length. That is the length we just stop growing and cannot go past because of our genes. Many people try to prove this by saying things like "well if your mom and dad and everyone in your family has short hair, most likely you'll have short hair too that can't grow long" which is silly since perhaps they're just ignorant about how to retain and maintain. If majority of people in your family have short hair that does not mean you are destined for it. The only way to find out would be taking a genetics test.



IA



MilkChocolateOne said:


> I see a lot of people are missing the original poster's point.  She never said that 4b hair doesn't grow and she never said that it was impossible for 4b to retain length.  She didn't mention anything about terminal length either.



She posed this question: _"__I love my hair in its natural state but _*the longer it gets, the more I wonder whether I am fighting against nature."

*"Nature" encompasses the question of terminal length so I don't think the response was off point.

Mine was a bit off point coz I scan and if I'm hear I'm usually multitasking - however upon reread OP seems to assume that there are other hair types who don't have to do anything with their hair and it just grows or something - this is not true of any hair type. This is not fighting nature - it's just a care routine just like washing and moisturizing your skin or brushing and flossing your teeth (assuming you don't think these things are fighting nature as well).


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## alive (Aug 16, 2010)

Nonie said:


> *Not true*. There are enough people with locs who don't do ish to their hair. *Perhaps a better statement would be 4B hair is designed to stay shrunken.*



Nonie, I'm green with envy that you don't detangle. i don't understand how that's possible  do you have your regimen posted somewhere? 



MilkChocolateOne said:


> quick question: Would a wash and grow afro eventually form free form locks if left unmanipulated?



i cannot even fathom what this would look like. i hope someone here can chime in (preferably with pictures) lol




keelioness said:


> You guys are both right ..It is meant to be left alone.. Its funny how loc'd naturals don't have issues with breakage etc. that loose naturals do.. Maybe our hair is meant to be loc'd?



a lot of people seem to think so. personally, i like having a wide spectrum of styling options so i don't see myself allowing my hair to lock whether it wants to or not haha


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## Nonie (Aug 16, 2010)

MilkChocolateOne said:


> *are you talking about free form locks *because retwisting locks at the root count as manipulation that aids in retention.
> 
> quick question: Would a wash and grow afro eventually form free form locks if left unmanipulated?



 *Yes I am* which is why I said they don't do ish to their locs. And I do believe that if you do nothing to 4B hair it will lock on its own.

I'm pretty sure this dude wasn't doing ish to his hair:






Between 1952 and 1960, a group of ant-colonial rule Kenyans known as the Mau Mau fought against British rule and got us our independence. One identifying factor was their unkempt hair or locs. I'd assume a lot of their hair just locked on its own because I'm sure good grooming was not in their radar. Here's a pic or two:









And you can sorta see this identifying factor of locked hair in this statue made in their memory: http://www.naturalhairjourney.com/blog/2009/09/mau-mau-statue-from-kenya.html


Here's another example of hair that locked on it own from having nothing done to it:


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## alive (Aug 16, 2010)

Tiye said:


> upon reread OP seems to assume that there are other hair types who don't have to do anything with their hair and it just grows or something - this is not true of any hair type. This is not fighting nature - it's just a care routine just like washing and moisturizing your skin or brushing and flossing your teeth [/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]



Uhmmm, that’s not really what I meant but now that I think about it, I do think that there are some hair types that pretty much do nothing and retain more length than 4bers. 
For example, some hair types thrive on a simple wash and condition type regimen. Finito. that’s literally all they have to do to keep their growth. 

*Compared to washing in sections, deep conditioning, detangling, moisturizing, and avoiding SSKs, that is nothing to me. * However, as Nonie is helping us all understand, it is possible that some of us *think* that our hair is more work simply because we have not learned about the easier techniques of growing our hair types long (which is why im itching for her to come back and explain how on earth she doesn't have to confront tangles). 

I completely agree that everybody has to groom their hair however, as it stands, some grooming is easier than others which makes me ask the question “why?” If we discover that there are comparatively easy ways to retain length in 4b hair, then i think it will be clear that the basic structure of our hair is actually not an impediment to length retention. Otherwise, the question is still wide open

I hope this provides some more context around the question


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## Nonie (Aug 16, 2010)

alive said:


> Uhmmm, that’s not really what I meant but now that I think about it, I do think that there are some hair types that pretty much do nothing and retain more length than 4bers.
> 
> For example, most of my friends from Asian countries simply wash and condition. Finito. that’s literally all they have to do to keep their growth.
> 
> ...



I think the problem is type 4's have been brainwashed to think they have to do all of that to grow hair long, when really they don't. 

Have you see Yassylane's regimen? It is wash, condition, braid, unbraid, the end. 

Do you know what she doesn't do? She doesn't pre-poo, then poo, then post poo , daily cowash, henna, DC, apply leave-in or moisturizer or any of the homemade concoctions y'all do or take tons of vitamins. And she's type 4A/B. And her hair is flourishing. See for yourself: http://public.fotki.com/yassylane/type4hair/

Do you know who else doesn't spend a lot of time on her hair? Me. Yes, putting in braids does take a while, but if I didn't enjoy playing in my hair, I'd not do it. So it's a joy to put braids in my hair. Once that's done, I just shampoo, condition, ACV rinse. And then I echo Yassylane's don'ts (except I do DC only coz it made sense to me to do so and I love any excuse to wash my hair). The end.

So that's two type 4 folks not doing much to their hair and still making progress.


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## alive (Aug 16, 2010)

Nonie said:


> I think the problem is type 4's have been brainwashed to think they have to do all of that to grow hair long, when really they don't.
> 
> Have you see Yassylane's regimen? It is wash, condition, braid, unbraid, the end.
> 
> ...




 Nonie, you are hilarious! I definitely understand your point though--simplicity is key. Funny that i hadn't seen any of this when i was editing my post  haha


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## Duchesse (Aug 16, 2010)

alive said:


> .
> 
> *Compared to washing in sections, deep conditioning, detangling, moisturizing, and avoiding SSKs, that is nothing to me. *However, as Nonie is helping us all understand, it is possible that some of us *think* that our hair is more work simply because we have not learned about the easier techniques of growing our hair types long (which is why im itching for her to come back and explain how on earth she doesn't have to confront tangles)
> 
> ...


 
I_ think_ I understand your question. If so, my best friend (4b) and I were having a similar discussion. Not the "_can _our hair grow"(obviously it has the same growth potential as many others...and I don't think that's what you were saying), but the "*should I be expending so much energy/time on it ...it would be easier to keep it short" *question.

Is that what you were asking?

I know for ease and simplicity, my hair would do and has done wonderfully kept closely cropped. However, because I desire length, I'm willing to spend more time on it for grooming and health. Now I don't and won't spend exorbitant amounts of time on my hair, but I do know that the longer it gets, the more work.


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## naturalgyrl5199 (Aug 16, 2010)

Nonie said:


> May I introduce you to our beloved Sera. She has type 4B hair that obviously isn't meant to be short: http://www.youtube.com/sera2544
> 
> ETA: I do not think Western influences are why we grow 4B hair long. If you ever read the book _Hair Story_ you will discover what a glory African hair was, how elaborately it was worn long, and how proud Africans were to show it off, way before white folks intruded on their land. It may also help you understand why it is that slaves were so ashamed of their 4B hair. They had never in all their lives worn it un-groomed and here they were with no combs and no time to tend to it. So they wore scarves or shaved it off, because they were used to having long hair, but not long hair that was unkempt. 4B hair got a bad rap not because it's the worst kind of hair there is, but because it was hair that those who had it were used to wearing it in smart dos, but found themselves w/o tools to do so, and it brought shame to not work it like they were able to back in their homeland.
> 
> If you scroll down the first pages of _Hair Story_ to page 2, you will see one hairstyle from back in the day: http://www.amazon.com/Hair-Story-Un...=UTF8&qid=1281972818&sr=1-1#reader_0312283229 which isn't short. And there are more images in the book.


 
Thanks Nonie...I was gonna refer to Sera also...She has broken all so-called limitations on 4B hair...She is the reason I knew I could succeed at being a natural and growing it out long...!


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## naturalgyrl5199 (Aug 16, 2010)

KaramelKurly said:


> No hair TYPE is designed to be short. However, certain people's hair is designed to be short simply because of genetics. *All of us have terminal length*. That is the length we just stop growing and cannot go past because of our genes. Many people try to prove this by saying things like "well if your mom and dad and everyone in your family has short hair, most likely you'll have short hair too that can't grow long" which is silly since perhaps they're just ignorant about how to retain and maintain. If majority of people in your family have short hair that does not mean you are destined for it. The only way to find out would be taking a genetics test.


 
But what are they? No one knows the terminal length of this race or this ethnicity, or this sub group....I hate the term because it really doesn't contribute much to the conversations (in prior posts and other websites that argue it) where this has come up.....

One can tell me: Yes we all have terminal lengths. My next question is...whats mine? You can mention genetics but it still proves little. For example...many people have the gene pre-disposing them to be overweight or develop hypertension....but they have neither....Which shows the role of environment (i.e: Diet, Exercise....and for us...healthy hair practices....) It would take a lot to actually prove terminal length in action.....

However I think Nonie hit on the head regarding type 4 hair being more SHRUNKEN by design....And we can surely argue that for wavy and women with loose coils too.


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## qchelle (Aug 16, 2010)

Sure our hair requires a little more maintenance and upkeep...but we can do SO much mroe with our hair! Now I'm def. not saying white people (looser textures) can't do anything with their hair but they can't do all of the things we can.  We can loc it, braid/twist it and its stays in, wear a fro, wear it curly, and on top of all of that straighten it to look like theirs!  Oh, the versatility! (Can you tell that I love tightly curled hair?  )


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## Nonie (Aug 16, 2010)

alive said:


> Nonie, I'm green with envy that you don't detangle. i don't understand how that's possible  do you have your regimen posted somewhere?



There's really nothing to my regimen. Now I'm in braids but the regimen when not in braids might be what you're interested in. 

I guess that would start with me taking my braids out, which I do with fingers, and as you can see, there's no knotting and therefore no detangling necessary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j68_fk46rNk
I usually do that while watching TV. I don't use any products and I do redo my braids during their life on my head, so I think those two things keep shed hair out, and also prevent my strands from gluing to each other.

After I undo every few braids, I put them in big plaits. That ensures that any moisture in the air, or when I do get bored and decide to take a break or to take a shower, that the free hair doesn't curl back on itself and tangle:





When I've undone all my hair, I will then jump in the shower with the hair in braids and wet it and shampoo it in braids using some moisturizing shampoo. I will undo each braid and comb through then rebraid. And I do that during conditioning and I do that during the rinse too. I may start with a wide tooth comb, as seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCcoXph8tF4

But if I feel like it, I have also used a fine-tooth seamless comb.  only then I work on narrower sections. Notice how I comb my hair in that vid: I stretch it to open up the coils and then let the comb slide through. 

I then let my hair dry in the plaits I had. This photo shows you my bare hair after it's dried in plaits that has no tangles so that it's so easy to just grab and twist w/o ever touching a comb again:





And when my hair is twisted, it stays in that detangled state so that undoing is as simple as seen in the clip below, even after many washes as you can tell by how fuzzy the twist I'm undoing is, compared to the ^^freshly done ones: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jff-Uqfb_SA

OK, but suppose I don't want to twist but want to wear my hair out, which is what I started explaining. Then I will undo each section and saturate it with S Curl, while my hair is still damp. It combs easily and if I want to wear it out, I comb in a backward direction and slide and elastic thingy back and use my hands to push my hair back. As you can see, when my hair is damp, shrinkage is huge:





In the evening, my hair is fully dry and it does feel hard, but after I removed the elastic thingy, I then grab a section of my hair starting from the back, saturate with S Curl, stretch and comb then plait it. I do this till all my hair is plaited, then put on a baggy for the night.

In the morning, when I take the baggy off, my hair again combs with such ease, and this time, shrinkage isn't as tight as it was on wet hair. I do not reapply S Curl and I can repeat the process till wash day w/o ever reapplying anything: 





And in the evening, I plait my hair again. Part, comb, plait. Not one time have I needed to detangle. 

I do dust my hair frequently which keeps my ends nice and smooth, and I do ACV rinse which keeps the entire strands smooth. I also don't apply 1739279273 that can glue strands together. 

Somehow this is all I have to do and I never have to detangle. I just get tired of doing hair daily--coz even growing up in Kenya, that wasn't normal (I don't know anyone who did unless their hair was relaxed or short)--so I braid or twist. And that this happens to be good for retention is just a blessing in itself because I do love braided or twisted hair. I even love cornrowed hair, but I find them very tiring to do. Otherwise for me, the hair journey is not the headache a lot of you make it out to be and that's coz I'm not trying to make my hair do stuff that's not in its character. Like you won't see me doing a WNG coz (1) I think it looks ugly on 4B hair as if combs are not sold where you come from and (2) it's as crazy to me as pouring pancake dough over your hair, so why do it????  I work with my hair and keep things simple and it thanks me.


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## lalla (Aug 16, 2010)

I haven't read the other posts yet, but I do think it is designed to look short. Tight curls = shrinkage = short look no matter the length, although uncombed 4b will form locks and appear long.

I don't know if the hair being dry or prone to tangling is a sign that 4b hair is not supposed to grow. Having dry skin does not mean your skin is destined to look dry. 
I also think that shrinkage makes 4b hair more elastic than 1A hair. You can easily stretch 4b hair to 3 or 4 times its length without damage; stretch 1a hair to 4 times its length and chances are it will snap. 



BTW I don't think any of our body parts were designed to behave in a particular way. Evolution can explain a lot of things, chance may explain others. Do the shapes of our heads have any impact on our intellectual capacity? It is unlikely, however genetic differences in cranial shape exist. In my opinion, some genetic characters may be meaningless, hair being one of those. 

 I don't think what your hair is "designed to do " is enough to keep a determined woman from reaching her (hair) goals.


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## TheQuietOne (Aug 16, 2010)

i hope 4b hair isnt designed to be short because if it is then my regimen i have now incorporated into my daily life will be a waste of my time.

I have come to love my 4b hair now i know wat products work for it and which ones do not.
its doesnt tangle and since changing my hair habits i have seen a lot less breakage.

me and my hair are aiming for APL and we gonna get there


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## lalla (Aug 16, 2010)

A link where you may see some traditional African hairstyles ( just scroll down): Malela's blog.


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## RegaLady (Aug 16, 2010)

Doesn't locked hair also look long because of the shed hair that is incorporated with the strands to make the lock look longer and fuller? I mean locked hair doesn't shed either, if we keep using locked hair as an example. Just wondering.


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## Alta Angel (Aug 16, 2010)

My 4b back section grows faster and is easier to detangle than my 4a front section.  It grows out instead of down, but its fine with me. With the addition to castor oil to my moisture spritz, my hair is softer and easier to deal with than ever.  For my bun, I keep the middle and back sections in 4 braids and my hair remains moisturized all day.


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## iri9109 (Aug 16, 2010)

nope. hair grows from the scalp, which means if you retain all your length, your hair has virtually no limit as to how long it can get...b/c its the most fragile type of hair so you seriously have to baby it in order to reduce breakage and damage. i think shorter ( medium length) natural hair will always be easier to maintain wether you are 3a or 4b just because its less to detangle, less hair to tangle up on its self, less hair to comb style, and overall less manipulation


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## alive (Aug 16, 2010)

Nonie, your hair looks so healthy. Thanks so much for sharing that. 

OT: One unanticipated but very nice perk of this thread is that a lot of beautiful heads of hair are chiming in (both relaxed & natural) and offering tips on how we 4bs can simplify our regimens even more


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## Nonie (Aug 16, 2010)

Readyone said:


> Doesn't locked hair also look long because of the shed hair that is incorporated with the strands to make the lock look longer and fuller? I mean locked hair doesn't shed either, if we keep using locked hair as an example. Just wondering.



That locks incorporate shed hair simply explains why locked hair seems not to have a terminal length but seems like it can grow to the floor like this Asha Mandela's. It's because the shed hair attaches to the growing hair so that it sort of strings old shed hair to new growing hair. But the truth of the matter is the hair is growing up to its terminal length which is at least APL stretched but could be WL, which proves that it is not designed to be short.


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## alive (Aug 16, 2010)

Alta Angel said:


> My 4b back section grows faster and is easier to detangle than my 4a front section.  It grows out instead of down, but its fine with me. With the addition to castor oil to my moisture spritz, my hair is softer and easier to deal with than ever.  For my bun, I keep the middle and back sections in 4 braids and my hair remains moisturized all day.



so basically only the front half of your hair is unbraided in the bun? Sorry I'm posting from my phone so I can't see the pics properly


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## cherxy777 (Aug 16, 2010)

God, I hope its not designed to be short. Then what am i doing with all that time and money? lol


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## alive (Aug 16, 2010)

cherxy777 said:


> God, I hope its not designed to be short. Then what am i doing with all that time and money? lol



 don't worry, hundreds if not thousands on women have proven that 4b length can be retained. Now we're working on educating ourselves on how to make the process easier


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## naijamerican (Aug 16, 2010)

I just have to say that this is an excellent thread.  I appreciate that it has indeed turned into a celebration of 4B hair and a sharing of techniques that help. Those of us privileged to have this hair type (and yes, I truly do mean privileged) have to fight against internalizing the notion that our hair operates at some type of deficit compared to our looser-textured sistren.  

I have found that, for me, hair growth is not the problem; it is retention. I'm a low-manipulation style person by nature and I'm contemplating doing a hard-core personal protective style challenge from now until the end of the year. I'd keep my hair in braids and simply rebraid them. No extensions added, just my own hair. It will also help as I try to adopt a healthier lifestyle through exercising. 

I totally appreciate everything Nonie said in this thread. The reason that 4B hair is ever problematic is when we fight against its natural inclinations (that is, to leave it the heck alone) and force it to do things it was not intended to do as readily as someone with looser curls can do.


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## FebeeSigns (Aug 16, 2010)

MilkChocolateOne said:


> The op didn't ask if type 4 hair was short by design.  She asked if type 4 hair is designed to be short.  It may seem like a matter of semantics but the way her question was worded makes all the difference.   Type 4 hair shrinks on itself, it grows up and out as opposed to down, due to it's shape type 4 hair is prone to dryness.  To retain length most type 4s have to do things to their hair that goes against it's natural tendencies (keep it confined in protective styles, keep the length stretched, braid, band, twist, relax, use heat etc...)After a certain length, I don't see many type fours that just wash and go (shrunken afro) retaining a lot length. To retain length most type fours have to alter the shape of their hair.


My aim is not to have a discussion or debate on what the OP originally asked and how I and other are supposed to respond on it, so this will be my last post regarding such. I posted word for word what the OP's question was, yet you specifically stated that's not what she asked. I pulled it from her own post. How you percieve the question is not how others may percieve the question. Everyone has a different response and I appreciate you posting your opinion that people are missing the point, but not everyone feels the way you do on that subject. Despite your previous response that I'm quoting, what I said still stands. I'm familiar with the 4 hair type seeing as how I have some 4a and have immersed myself in various hair boards and books since BC'ing. If there's anything else to learn I can definitely do so by sticking around in this thread. But having a debate on something else that isn't as important to me isn't helping.


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## preciouslove0x (Aug 16, 2010)

I don't have anything to add. But just wanted to say that I'm really enjoying this thread ^^^ besides some of the bickering ^^^


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## Alta Angel (Aug 16, 2010)

Exactly.  I finger detangle the front, spritz with my spray and put in two loose braids for the night.




alive said:


> so basically only the front half of your hair is unbraided in the bun? Sorry I'm posting from my phone so I can't see the pics properly


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## MadisonK (Aug 16, 2010)

Nonie said:


> May I introduce you to our beloved Sera. She has type 4B hair that obviously isn't meant to be short: http://www.youtube.com/sera2544
> 
> ETA: I do not think Western influences are why we grow 4B hair long. If you ever read the book _Hair Story_ you will discover what a glory African hair was, how elaborately it was worn long, and how proud Africans were to show it off, way before white folks intruded on their land. It may also help you understand why it is that slaves were so ashamed of their 4B hair. *They had never in all their lives worn it un-groomed and here they were with no combs and no time to tend to it. So they wore scarves or shaved it off, because they were used to having long hair, but not long hair that was unkempt.* 4B hair got a bad rap not because it's the worst kind of hair there is, but because it was hair that those who had it were used to wearing it in smart dos, but found themselves w/o tools to do so, and it brought shame to not work it like they were able to back in their homeland.
> 
> If you scroll down the first pages of _Hair Story_ to page 2, you will see one hairstyle from back in the day: http://www.amazon.com/Hair-Story-Un...=UTF8&qid=1281972818&sr=1-1#reader_0312283229 which isn't short. And there are more images in the book.


 
Wow.  Thank you for sharing this.


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## MadisonK (Aug 16, 2010)

Nonie said:


> I think the difficulty with 4B hair comes about when people try to make it do what is not normal to it. I am having the easiest journey ever. I'm not retaining as well as I could, coz I'm not doing sh**, yet my hair is growing w/o a doubt. Coz even with the breakage I get due to not protective styling or sealing, in 3 years, I've gotten here from starting with about 3 inches in 2007.
> 
> I think shrinkage goes back to the need for people living in hot Africa to stay cool around their necks and shoulders...and also the shrinkage provides a canopy-like compact shield from the sun so our brains don't get fried. It's all in the genius of our Maker.
> 
> ...


 
You have great posts!


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## Tiye (Aug 16, 2010)

naijamerican said:


> I just have to say that this is an excellent thread.  I appreciate that it has indeed turned into a celebration of 4B hair and a sharing of techniques that help. Those of us privileged to have this hair type (and yes, I truly do mean privileged) have to fight against internalizing the notion that our hair operates at some type of deficit compared to our looser-textured sistren.
> 
> I have found that, for me, hair growth is not the problem; it is retention. I'm a low-manipulation style person by nature and I'm contemplating doing a hard-core personal protective style challenge from now until the end of the year. I'd keep my hair in braids and simply rebraid them. No extensions added, just my own hair. It will also help as I try to adopt a healthier lifestyle through exercising.
> 
> I totally appreciate everything Nonie said in this thread. The reason that 4B hair is ever problematic is when we fight against its natural inclinations (that is, to leave it the heck alone) and force it to do things it was not intended to do as readily as someone with looser curls can do.



 @ the blue part.

 There is no deficit.

I disagree only slightly w/the rest coz I'm out to prove that we can enjoy playing with our hair just like everybody else as well. The length quest has already been proven. But since I'm not one who's interested in length if I can't do anything with it (been there and done it with locs anyway), next level of the quest is styling versatility. There's more knowledge about hair care and hair science readily available today than any time in recent history - so I say it's doable.


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## fluffylocks (Aug 16, 2010)

Alot of times when things are different, they have different purposes, functions, and needs.

I dont think the function of 4 hair is to be short, since it grows at the same rate as normal, and can reach the same lengths as any other-

But I do think it has different needs. And if you just take care of it, use common sence, and work with it, without thinking you have a disadvantage (because that assumes straighter hair is the advantage IMO) everything will be okay. 

Because if you dont think straight hair is an advantage, and hair is hair just some are different, you can just say that because of the differences, each one can and cant do different things well or easily.


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## anon123 (Aug 16, 2010)

Maybe.  I think our hair, when it's loose, is so much more reasonably managed when it's short.  This is true for all hair types, but I think it's especially true for 4b.  That doesn't mean 4b hair can't get long, but it does mean it typically doesn't get as long as other types without putting in considerably more effort.  And even then, still not as long.  I've come to realize that this is not a deficit.  It is a neutral characteristic, and it's only our cultural values that have turned it into a deficit.


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## Ms Lala (Aug 16, 2010)

I think if it were meant to be short the terminal length would be shorter.  Like hair on certain parts of the body are meant to be short and have a short terminal length.  I think every hair type has it positives and its challenges.  It's just a matter of learning what works for your hair.


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## bebee10 (Aug 16, 2010)

op this is a really good question because i wondered about it for the loooongest time. everyone i see people with looser textured hair they always seems to have less trouble with dealing with their hair and can just let it hang where as with my hair at first it wouldn't hang and would draw up and look like a twa at the first sign of moisture. but keep in mind that there may be different kinds of 4b. meaning that now that my hair is getting longer is now hangs  a little instead of stick out (my hair is now a little past shoulder length) but it still draws up just not all the way and i still have mostly 4b hair. I think it could be the weight of the hair. Nonie made an excellant example with sera and you can see her fotki page at www.fotki.com/sera25 and www.fotki.com/sera252
she is def a 4b natural and in one of her albums she shows how much shrinkage she gets even though her hair is almost waistlength and its alot. another 4b natural (if i'm not mistaken) is Kimmay http://www.youtube.com/user/kimmaytube
her hair just hangs and she doesn't have any visible curls in her hair when it's dry or wet.


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## Prettyeyes (Aug 16, 2010)

NOPE, it's not designed to be short, it just wants to be treated a certain way like all hair.


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## anon123 (Aug 16, 2010)

Y'all, Sera said she takes up to 6 hours to detangle her hair.  I'm just saying, even look at the favorite example.  Is 6 hours of detangling what we're _meant_ to do?  I mean, humans style their hair, so who knows what it's "meant" to do.  We do what we want to do to it whether it's "meant" to be or not.  But just speaking for myself, I think my hair is meant to be locked or kept cut really short.  Braids take a gazillion years to do, cornrows are painful, and twists take a long time and still tangle.  Of course I _can_ do these things, but every time I do any of them, I always feel that I am fighting my hair.


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## Yen Oak (Aug 16, 2010)

^^^ I understand exactly what you're saying, Mwedzi.

As my hair grows out of the TWA stage, I'm wondering if APL, BSL, or MBL is truly in the cards for me. My hair is thick, kinky, with some random tight spirals in the top. Also, as someone who exercises on a regular basis and sweats like whoa, I'm not sure a goal of really long hair is reasonable. 

I may be setting myself up for disappointment. But I do appreciate you and Nonie for being great examples of the possibilities of 4B hair.


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## greight (Aug 16, 2010)

mwedzi said:


> *Y'all, Sera said she takes up to 6 hours to detangle her hair.  I'm just saying, even look at the favorite example.  Is 6 hours of detangling what we're meant to do?*  I mean, humans style their hair, so who knows what it's "meant" to do.  We do what we want to do to it whether it's "meant" to be or not.  But just speaking for myself, I think my hair is meant to be locked or kept cut really short.  Braids take a gazillion years to do, cornrows are painful, and twists take a long time and still tangle.  Of course I _can_ do these things, but every time I do any of them, I always feel that I am fighting my hair.



See, that's what I've been thinking about.

I try to rationalize the time I consume just plain ol' washing/conditioning my hair on the weekend by saying that I save myself a half an hour each day from washing/conditioning it if I was a 1, 2, or even 3 type. 

But still... I just don't like the fact that I'm doing my hair for such a long time and I have to treat each strand as if it will fall apart (or tangle ) if I so much sneeze/look at it. 

I do want long hair, and that is what I'll try to go for, but I don't know if I'd ever go 6 hours deep on detangling alone .


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## Miss_C (Aug 16, 2010)

If 4B hair were meant to be short, little black girls would never have long hair, and lots of them do. Lots of ladies here have had long 4B hair in the past. I think the problem comes society influences, like having to have your hair "popped" just to go to the mailbox. If we all just put our hair in those 2-6 braids like we did as little girls (props to SimJam for the cute pic), we'd all have hair down our backs. 
But keep up the care of your hair, and you'll def see results. Can you braid it up and leave it alone except to moisturize?


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## Nonie (Aug 16, 2010)

Well, I have never had hair as long as you, Mwedzi, or Sera, but when I get there, I plan on giving up extension braids coz $210 on 28"-30" inch hair (2 packs) is about all I'm willing to spend on extension hair and that gives me just 14-inch braids. So when my hair is 14+, I don't think extensions will make any sense if they are the same length as my hair. 

At that point, I'll let you know if I have to detangle the way you all do. Before putting my extensions in, I had worn my hair out and in twists and again, never had to detangle. My hair was only shoulder-length so maybe I am a bit delusional coz I just haven't seen anything yet. 

Anyway, I promise to let you all know how that goes. 

I'd love to know how long it takes Yassylane and Sonce to detangle. I just find it hard to believe that there are only a handful of us who don't deal with tangles enough for them to be worth writing home about.

ETA: I just re-read Yassylane's regimen and she doesn't have long detangling sessions and she has long hair. Which is what I expect will be my story when I get to where she is, coz I don't see why my hair would suddenly start tangling. But notice one thing she doesn't do: she doesn't use leave-in products. I wonder if they aren't the main problem here. All these "fancy" things that were probably never meant to be left in our hair. Maybe they are the source of all our gloom; maybe they glue hair together? (Now don't throw away your tried-and-true leave-in products then blame me when your hair falls out  coz I shall totally deny I had anything to do with it and say the Easter bunny made me type that. But it is something to consider.)


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## SimJam (Aug 16, 2010)

this thread is splendid. taking notes and subbing


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## anon123 (Aug 16, 2010)

Nonie said:


> Well, I have never had hair as long as you, Mwedzi, or Sera, but when I get there, I plan on giving up extension braids coz $200 is about all I'm willing to spend on extension hair and that gives me just 14-inch braids. So when my hair is 14+, I don't think extensions will make any sense if they are the same length as my hair.
> 
> At that point, I'll let you know if it I have to detangle the way you all do. Before putting my extensions in, I had worn my hair out and in twists and again, never had to detangle. My hair was only shoulder-length so maybe I am a bit delusional coz I just haven't seen anything yet.
> 
> ...



Do let us know how it goes.   I am glad you don't have to detangle.  It just goes to show not every head of 4b is the same, so I'm glad you give your input on what works for you.  I'm sure you will continue to be at peace with your hair, which is wonderful.  You do spend a lot of time braiding and twisting, though. I know you enjoy playing in your hair.  I admit that I lack the patience.  My detangling has gotten faster, though, and it is now faster than it would take me to braid or twist.  I use a brush almost every time now.  

btw Yassy is not a 4b.  This is her freshly washed hair.  I would like to hear about Sonce, though.  What ever happened to her fotki?  Well, I shouldn't talk.  I'm about to lock or delete mine, too.  I think a good question is not how long it takes to detangle, but how long it takes to do your hair.  Everything, not just detangling.

Density also plays into it.  Imagine a Q-tip with 50 kinked up cotton strands on it. Imagine how it tangles. Now imagine the same Q-tip with 100 strands on it. Imagine how it tangles.  Not merely twice as much, but exponentially more so.

Really, there are not that many long 4bs.  And I guess my definition of long might be being skewed because I also visit longhaircommunity, full of white and Asian women.  APL hair is not long in that sense, for people expressly trying to grow it out.  Even that link floating around of bsl+ 4bs has 1/4 links not working, 1/2 links not 4b, and 1/5 not bsl. 

Anyway, I can only speak for myself.


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## Loveygram (Aug 16, 2010)

Thanx OP for a Great thread.


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## Nonie (Aug 16, 2010)

mwedzi said:


> Do let us know how it goes.   I am glad you don't have to detangle.  It just goes to show not every head of 4b is the same, so I'm glad you give your input on what works for you.  I'm sure you will continue to be at peace with your hair, which is wonderful.  You do spend a lot of time braiding and twisting, though. I know you enjoy playing in your hair.  I admit that I lack the patience.  My detangling has gotten faster, though, and it is now faster than it would take me to braid or twist.  I use a brush almost every time now.
> 
> btw Yassy is not a 4b.  This is her freshly washed hair.  I would like to hear about Sonce, though.  What ever happened to her fotki?  Well, I shouldn't talk.  I'm about to lock or delete mine, too.  I think a good question is not how long it takes to detangle, but how long it takes to do your hair.  Everything, not just detangling.
> 
> ...



Mwedzi, I see 4A/B hair in Yassylane. I don't see totally 4A. Also remember she washes her hair in plaits so is that hair taken out of plaits?

And granted I spend a lot of time braiding but 10 hours once in a year and a half and about one hour per week which includes two washes, condition/DC, ACV rinse and the times I redo one braid at a time...coz I never work on many braids a day. Not when I need my fingers to type long-*** posts. 

When I wore my hair out, my wash may have taken a lot longer than it does now coz I combed and rebraided during each step but there was no detangling sessions then, and my daily puffs took minutes to create coz I undid braids, combed hair out, put on elastic, done. Evening involved putting hair in braids, baggying done. Maybe if I had not been combing but just doing braid-outs, I'd have retained more then.

My strands are very find and dense, so I know it's not coz I have strong Amazon hair that this regimen works. 

I'm curious to see what my hair looks like if I wash it in braids and undo the braids before it's fully dry....


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## alive (Aug 16, 2010)

mwedzi said:


> Maybe.  I think our hair, when it's loose, is so much more reasonably managed when it's short.  This is true for all hair types, but I think it's especially true for 4b.  That doesn't mean 4b hair can't get long, but it does mean it typically doesn't get as long as other types without putting in considerably more effort.  And even then, still not as long.  I've come to realize that this is not a deficit.  It is a neutral characteristic, and it's only our cultural values that have turned it into a deficit.



I was hoping you'll come chime in especially since someone referenced you as a 4b with long hair  I really appreciate how analytical and straightforward your posts tend to be.



mwedzi said:


> Y'all, Sera said she takes up to *6 hours to detangle her hair.*  I'm just saying, even look at the favorite example.  Is 6 hours of detangling what we're _meant_ to do? *for myself, I think my hair is meant to be locked or kept cut really short.*  Braids take a gazillion years to do, cornrows are painful, and twists take a long time and still tangle.  Of course I _can_ do these things, but every time I do any of them,* I always feel that I am fighting my hair*.



I wonder the same thing, mwedzi. are we really _*supposed*_ to spend that much time on our hair to achieve length if it comes naturally for our hair type? based on the responses so far, i am inclined to think that the answer is no *but * our hair might not be to blame. it just might be the case that we need to figure out simpler ways of achieving the same goal. 

In that sense, I think Nonie is a pioneer on this board, and I am really looking forward to seeing her progress in a couple more months. she's the only 4b i've heard of that's had the courage to go cold turkey on products lol


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## ebonylocs (Aug 16, 2010)

I agree with OP and mwedzi on this. In the past I grew out my 4b natural hair to BSL / MBL in about 3 yrs, but it took nearly constant protective styling and multiple-hour detangling sessions as I treated my hair like fragile silk. Most of the time I had my hair in twists or extensions and just left it alone, except for fortnightly washing & conditioning and nearly daily moisturising / baggying the ends. That worked because I was a student and appearances didn't matter much. But the marathon fortnightly detangling sessions were a pain in the ***, so was the fact that I couldn't wear my hair out without tangles and jepordizing my length, and because of shrinkage, I didn't know how long it was until I relaxed it.

Now, I am not willing to spend all that time on my hair. First I texlaxed because I wasn't ready to let go of texture, and now after a year of no 'laxing at all, I am ready to go fully straight. I love the look and feel of natural 4b hair, but I can't deal with the tangles right now. The tangling and fragility that are characteristic of my hair type are preventing me from retaining like I would like. I figure I can't get rid of the fragility - might as well reduce the tangles - might actually help me retain better if it doesn't add too much to the fragility.

And no, no one is talking about a "deficit". Like Mwedzi said, it's just a neutral characteristic of my hair. Calling it a deficit would mean there is something innately good / superior about long hair, and I don't believe that is the case. And yes, theoretically, the strands of my 4b natural hair could grow to tailbone length *if* I did nothing to break them. But it is the lengths I would have to go to to *not* break them that are at issue here.


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## alive (Aug 16, 2010)

naijamerican said:


> Those of us privileged to have this hair type (and yes, I truly do mean privileged) *have to fight against internalizing the notion that our hair operates at some type of deficit compared to our looser-textured sistren.  *



couldn't possibly agree more 



fluffylocks said:


> I dont think the function of 4 hair is to be short,_ since it grows at the same rate as normal,_ and can reach the same lengths as any other-



i think you bring up a very valid point that I hadn't really considered. if it were designed to be short, i would probably simply stop growing at a certain length instead of going through the trouble of knotting up, drying out and breaking. This thread is giving me a KISS itch. I'm feeling ready for a Type 4 Keep It Simple Sister (KISS) Challenge.




Nonie said:


> ETA: I just re-read Yassylane's regimen and she doesn't have long detangling sessions and she has long hair.



based on her fotki, her freshly washed hair looks nothing like mine. are you sure she's a 4b? is she heat trained? 

ETA: just saw your post above. not sure what her hair type is but im no pro at hair typing either lol


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## Nonie (Aug 16, 2010)

alive said:


> based on her fotki, her freshly washed hair looks nothing like mine. are you sure she's a 4b? is she heat trained?
> 
> ETA: just saw your post above. not sure what her hair type is but im no pro at hair typing either lol



I didn't say she's 4B. I've always thought she was 4A/B. I wish I knew whether her hair was wet or dry in that pic.

I also wonder whether the weight of her hair wouldn't give it some hang. She doesn't get the definition I expect for 4A.


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## virtuenow (Aug 16, 2010)

I don't know if its designed to be short, but I'm very discouraged right now.  I haven't been on here in months- it seems- for that reason exactly.  Feels like I'm fighting a [losing] battle w/my 4b hair sometimes.


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## knt1229 (Aug 16, 2010)

Deleted.......


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## Platinum (Aug 17, 2010)

Great thread! A special thanks to Nonie and Mwedzi for their input!


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## happyjourney (Aug 17, 2010)

EXCELLENT discussion. Best thread I've seen on this forum (not just the "hair care" forum- the best in general) in a long time...Thanks for this...subbing


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## saharazaramorocco (Aug 17, 2010)

I second that - this is a great thread.


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## justicefighter1913 (Aug 17, 2010)

subbing! Good thread.


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## wednesday (Aug 17, 2010)

hmmmm, in a way i guess it IS designed to be short..or at least to LOOK short. I know 4bs and cnapps with mid back length hair and MAJOR shrinkage. Yes their hair is "long" but it still looks very short. I think that is something i had to make peace with. Even when i do reach my hair length goals as a 4c i'm never gonna have naturally long looking hair :-/


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## AimWard (Aug 17, 2010)

alive said:


> So my question is,
> 
> *is type 4 hair SHORT by DESIGN? *
> 
> I really want to hear your thoughts on this in case  I’m missing something



my answer is nope. If you are talking about hair flowing down the back, that ain't gonna happen with natural 4b hair, but if your talking about a BA gravity defying afro, I think there are no limits. Why? Just look at our male counter parts. Every day I see plenty of 4b males walking around with BAAs. I know a few males who have 4b hair and went from shiny Montel bald to an Erykah Badu fro in a little over a year. And how did these males manage this? They do absolutely nothing to their hair. Simply wash, condition, maybe pick it out and occasionally get braids. That's it. We as women do too much to our hair.


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## wednesday (Aug 17, 2010)

virtuenow said:


> I don't know if its designed to be short, but I'm very discouraged right now.  I haven't been on here in months- it seems- for that reason exactly.  Feels like I'm fighting a [losing] battle w/my 4b hair sometimes.




i feel the same way  you hair is BEAUTIFUL though


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## Missjae09 (Aug 17, 2010)

I too am a 4a/b and I definitely don't think that my/our hair is short by "design". I know that my hair can grow... but I've learned that having 4a/b hair means that I have to put more effort into making sure that my hair stays moisturized to retain length. 

I agree with all the things OP said about it tangling easily and being dry. I also feel that my hair does better when its stretched with a braid or twist outs or roller sets. Wash and go's leave me with a tangled mess.


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## Missjae09 (Aug 17, 2010)

I don't know how old the pic in your siggy is but if that hair is the picture of a "losing" battle... I'm READY TO START MY LOSING BATTLE TOO!  

girl I'm not sure what your goal is, but your hair is beautiful! 



virtuenow said:


> I don't know if its designed to be short, but I'm very discouraged right now.  I haven't been on here in months- it seems- for that reason exactly.  Feels like I'm fighting a [losing] battle w/my 4b hair sometimes.


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## ActionActress (Aug 17, 2010)

Nonie said:


> May I introduce you to our beloved Sera. She has type 4B hair that obviously isn't meant to be short: http://www.youtube.com/sera2544
> 
> ETA: I do not think Western influences are why we grow 4B hair long. If you ever read the book _Hair Story_ you will discover what a glory African hair was, how elaborately it was worn long, and how proud Africans were to show it off, way before white folks intruded on their land. It may also help you understand why it is that slaves were so ashamed of their 4B hair. They had never in all their lives worn it un-groomed and here they were with no combs and no time to tend to it. So they wore scarves or shaved it off, because they were used to having long hair, but not long hair that was unkempt. 4B hair got a bad rap not because it's the worst kind of hair there is, but because it was hair that those who had it were used to wearing it in smart dos, but found themselves w/o tools to do so, and it brought shame to not work it like they were able to back in their homeland.
> 
> If you scroll down the first pages of _Hair Story_ to page 2, you will see one hairstyle from back in the day: http://www.amazon.com/Hair-Story-Un...=UTF8&qid=1281972818&sr=1-1#reader_0312283229 which isn't short. And there are more images in the book.


 
*Nonie I love you!!  You see what happens when we forget about our own beauty? And lose knowledge of self?*

*AA--thumbs up for this one.*


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## Missjae09 (Aug 17, 2010)

This is a very interesting thread.. I must say though reading thru the post from ladies who have hair that is at a length that I hope to one day achieve has left me feeling a bit discouraged but I know that although we all have similar textures our individual growth depends how well we take care of our hair individually so i will continue to have healthy hair practices and hope for the best.


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## ActionActress (Aug 17, 2010)

jennboo said:


> Interesting question.
> 
> I'm inclined to think that it IS designed to appear compact due to the shrinkage factor. No matter how long 4b hair grows (could be waist-length), it will still shrink up to a head/face framing afro form where it doesn't necessarily "hang" (provided it has not been heat damaged)....nothing wrong with that though.


 
*The explains the APPEARANCE of being shorter which should be miscontrued with being short in the true sense.  The hair oftentimes *is* long but if you straighten it some way , you'll find it long.*

*AA*


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## ebonylocs (Aug 17, 2010)

virtuenow said:


> I don't know if its designed to be short, but I'm very discouraged right now.  I haven't been on here in months- it seems- for that reason exactly.  Feels like I'm fighting a [losing] battle w/my 4b hair sometimes.


Well your hair looks abundant and wonderful, so you will be an inspiration to a lot of people. Even me, with my complaining, most (black) people consider my hair to be quite long.



Missjae09 said:


> I too am a 4a/b and I definitely don't think that my/our hair is short by "design".* I know that my hair can grow*... but I've learned that having 4a/b hair means that I have to put more effort into making sure that my hair stays moisturized to retain length.


That is not in question at all - of course it grows!!! The issue that OP is raising is the tender care, time, and vigilance that it requires to *retain* that growth, and how difficult it is to show length once it is achieved.



ActionActress said:


> *Nonie I love you!!  You see what happens when we forget about our own beauty? And lose knowledge of self?*
> 
> *AA--thumbs up for this one.*


I am sorry, but I have an issue with equating long hair with beauty. I have seen people commenting on the youtube video of one very longhaired natural (longhairdontcare?) saying things like "Wonderful! I sent this to my students to remind them of their black beauty.") erplexed It just seems *off*. The truth is, we and our hair are beautiful in many many ways, and to somehow correlate that exclusively with visibly long hair - something that only few of us have without effort and that even those of us who do have don't necessarily *show* in our hair's natural state, seems to me to negate rather than to affirm our beauty.


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## SND411 (Aug 17, 2010)

So just because our hair requires different techniques, it is designed to be short?
Why are we comparing our hair techniques to those with straight hair? They are NOT the same. Many people with "straighter" textures need to remove excess oil while we need to replenish out hair with more. Would you then say that those with 3A texture are more likely to have shorter hair compared to their 1A counterparts, or is this "designed to be short" applied to only 4B?

I admit, I am kind of confused with the OP's initial question. Not all 4Bs are the same. Many do not need 6 hours of detangling sessions. KISS.


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## SND411 (Aug 17, 2010)

AimWard said:


> my answer is nope. If you are talking about hair flowing down the back, that ain't gonna happen with natural 4b hair, but if your talking about a BA gravity defying afro, I think there are no limits. Why? Just look at our male counter parts. Every day I see plenty of 4b males walking around with BAAs. I know a few males who have 4b hair and went from shiny Montel bald to an Erykah Badu fro in a little over a year. And how did these males manage this? They do absolutely nothing to their hair. Simply wash, condition, maybe pick it out and occasionally get braids. That's it. We as women do too much to our hair.



EXACTLY. I always viewed BAA as being "very long." I love the defying gravity look. 

Ever notice how in those "if you hand long hair what would you do" or "can I live vicariously through you" threads, people often equate long hair with having it "swanging" and straightened?


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## ebonylocs (Aug 17, 2010)

SND411 said:


> I admit, I am kind of confused with the OP's initial question. Not all 4Bs are the same. Many do not need 6 hours of detangling sessions. KISS.



The long detangling sessions are usually a result of KISS. I.e. someone who leaves a hairstyle in for a couple of weeks and doesn't fool with the hair in between will have a lot of shed hairs to remove on wash day.


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## SND411 (Aug 17, 2010)

ebonylocs said:


> The long detangling sessions are usually a result of KISS. I.e. someone who leaves a hairstyle in for a couple of weeks and doesn't fool with the hair in between will have a lot of shed hairs to remove on wash day.



But many 4b ladies, such as myself, KISS without having to leave a style in for many weeks at a time. I leave mine in two weeks maximum and can detangle/wash/condition my hair in about 1 hour. I also have VERY thick hair and have seen a lot of growth.


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## Nonie (Aug 17, 2010)

ebonylocs said:


> *The long detangling sessions are usually a result of KISS*. I.e. someone who leaves a hairstyle in for a couple of weeks and doesn't fool with the hair in between will have a lot of shed hairs to remove on wash day.



Not necessarily true. I KISS and I don't have long detangling sessions.


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## naturalgyrl5199 (Aug 17, 2010)

Nonie said:


> Not necessarily true. I KISS and I don't have long detangling sessions.


 
ITA.....there is a difference between KISS and just NOT DOING anything to your hair. As a 4AB/3C natural, my detangling sessions are not long either, and are stress free....I have been working 2 jobs (since 08) and trying to start a consulting business this year since started my journey (in 08) and I am now BSB+ so I know KISS is important and have seen my hair thrive ever since....


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## SimJam (Aug 17, 2010)

I think we all must keep this thread in the back of our minds going forward.

what I have got from this discussion is that the main issue with having long (by whatever yardstick one wants to use) 4b hair is dealing with its natural tendency to curl/shrink back up on itself, which leads to several "potential" retention constraints and frustration, specifically regarding dealing with detangling.

so I think what we must do is share any methods/techniques we come across that lessen the time taken to detangle and effort required for maintaining long 4b hair


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## virtuenow (Aug 17, 2010)

Haha, hhanks.  That picture was taken spring of last year.  I guess I should have said that I had a setback.  There is a big patch of hair missing in my crown area (and some around the edges).  Unbelieveable!  I thought I was doing everything right.  Apparently it must have been the half wig that took out my edges; and the claw clip/bun that took out my crown.  I called myself giving my hair a rest at the beginning of the year and instead ended up w/a setback.  

My 4b hair cannot take the least amount of stress style wise.  

It seems like I am required to wear it down, and I mean down all the time.  That is fine b/c I hate protective styles and buns-- and prefer "out" styles.  But I listened to you guys and tried out protective styles (sorry, had to call everyone out that advocates the evil protective styles).  I repeat, I wish I would have known that my 4b hair cannot take it.  Now its taking forever to grow back and it doesn't look the same wearing it down.

On a side note, I agree w/whoever said longer hair is easier to handle.  I started out w/a big chop, so I've been at the TWA phase and longer phase.  Its easier to do "out styles, b/c I am at a length where I can do a braid out w/just 2-4 braids.  Does it get any better than that??  Detangling and drying may also be the culprit for my crown...I'll let u know when I figure that out.  Detangling is definitly the hardest & longest part of handling 4b hair.


Missjae09 said:


> I don't know how old the pic in your siggy is but if that hair is the picture of a "losing" battle... I'm READY TO START MY LOSING BATTLE TOO!
> 
> girl I'm not sure what your goal is, but your hair is beautiful!


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## AvaSpeaks (Aug 17, 2010)

Nixx said:


> For those of you saying longer is easier, at what length would you say it gets easier with respect to natural hair? Also, would you say detangling longer natural hair is easier? Why?
> 
> My hair is SL(some strands are close to APL) and detangling was easier when my hair was short(under 5 inches). I didn't have to comb my hair and I could get away with finger detangling. With longer hair, I have to wash in sections and detangling takes time and patience. I have to use a comb or I will have tangling, knots and breakage. It's not necessarily harder (depends on your perception/experience) but it does take more time. I guess it depends on what is important to you and the amount of time one is willing to invest to achieve their desired look/length.


 
I think it depends on the type of hair you have. If you have tight 4b hair then if it was longer, it might be easier because you have more to pull and stretch and put into styles.

But if your hair is let's say is a looser type/texture then your hair is already "looser" at a shorter length, therefore easier to style at a shorter length. 

I think that's what they are trying to say, I'm not sure


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## AvaSpeaks (Aug 17, 2010)

Yen Oak said:


> ^^^ I understand exactly what you're saying, Mwedzi.
> 
> As my hair grows out of the TWA stage, I'm wondering if APL, BSL, or MBL is truly in the cards for me. My hair is thick, kinky, with some random tight spirals in the top. Also, as someone who exercises on a regular basis and sweats like whoa, *I'm not sure a goal of really long hair is reasonable. *
> 
> *I may be setting myself up for disappointment.* But I do appreciate you and Nonie for being great examples of the possibilities of 4B hair.


 
Then why are you here on the LONG HAIR CARE Board? 

Isn't the purpose of this board to show that our hair can grow long? Regardless? I mean barring illness, sickness or extreme hair problems.


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## Hairsofab (Aug 17, 2010)

I think by design it is meant to be short. People who have 4b long hair have to go out of their way to make sure it grows long. By go out of their way, I mean you can't just wash and go and sleep on your hair. You have to constantly detangle and protect if you want it to grow the same lengths type 1 and 2 hair grow without the effort. Most people can only point to 1 or 2 people with true type 4b hair that is very long. It is not very common. One of those people is Sera, and she admitted that it takes her a lot of time to care for her hair. I can think of dozens of people with type 1 and type 2 hair at that length who do nothing to their hair and it still gets to those lengths.


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## SND411 (Aug 17, 2010)

Bosinse said:


> I think by design it is meant to be short. People who have 4b long hair have to go out of their way to make sure it grows long. By go out of their way, I mean you can't just wash and go and sleep on your hair. You have to constantly detangle and protect if you want it to grow the same lengths type 1 and 2 hair grow without the effort. Most people can only point to 1 or 2 people with true type 4b hair that is very long. It is not very common. One of those people is Sera, and she admitted that it takes her a lot of time to care for her hair. I can think of dozens of people with type 1 and type 2 hair at that length who do nothing to their hair and it still gets to those lengths.



But just because we have to do things differently than people with type 1 or 2 hair, does not mean it is designed to be short? *Why are type 1 and 2 hair types always the standard of hair or hair care in general?* 4b is TIGHTLY coiled hair, while types 1 and 2 or not. IT IS A GIVEN that we take care of our hair in different manners. 


It is sort of like body types. Are people who easily gain weight compared to those with fast metabolism/remain skinny meant to be obese? No. Yes, some people who need to work harder to maintain a healthy/athletic shape, but it does not mean they are doing something unnatural.


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## Nonie (Aug 17, 2010)

My comments in bold, but they are not all directly at you Bosinse, but I am addressing anyone that might have similar thoughts or even run away with your thoughts and read more into them than what you said, coz we all know it takes a one word to get our minds working overtime and send ourselves into unnecessary despair or delusional ecstasy. 



Bosinse said:


> I think by design it is meant to be (*<--Nay, the word here should be "appear") *short.






Bosinse said:


> People who have 4b long hair have to go out of their way to make sure it grows long. By go out of their way, I mean you can't just wash and go and sleep on your hair.


*Why is that considered such a tall order?  Is not being able to have curls unless you spend hours curling your hair only to have them drop an hour later (my Spanish friend's straight hair problem) better? I have another Afghan friend who spends at least an hour every morning giving her hair body coz she hates her wavy hair. She would straighten it first then give it big curls. Now she presses it straight...EVERY BLOODY MORNING!!! I guess when plaiting your hair for bed is something you have done all your life it seems as normal as peeing so it's no biggie to me and is over in the blink of an eye.*



Bosinse said:


> You have to constantly detangle and protect if you want it to grow the same lengths type 1 and 2 hair grow without the effort.


*I don't have to detangle and I haven't really protective styled. (My hair isn't "protected" by a moisture seal or ends coated or tucked away to prevent damage. I just don't manipulate my hair.) Yet that hasn't stopped my hair growing longer even with the little effort I put into caring for it. I'm sure I'd get better progress if I did PS. Anyway, I know someone with type 1 hair (white friend) who's been struggling to get it to APL with no success, and her is healthy looking, thick just doesn't seem to grow and she complains about it. Also if it were only 4B having to put in some effort to get long hair, there would not be as many other-type-haired ladies on here seeking advice on what to do for their hair to grow. I think we need to stop acting as if we're some unfortunate freaks and just do what needs to be done to get what we want. Other folks figured out what THEIR hair needs. We need to do the same and stop yearning for what isn't ours.  *



Bosinse said:


> Most people can only point to 1 or 2 people with true type 4b hair that is very long. It is not very common.


 *That may be so but what is it that Sera has that we don't? She's been doing the right things by her hair consistently. She is also very knowledgeable on her hair's needs. 4B hair hasn't had the resources it now has in the past, and so we didn't have many people to show us the way as we do now. Also 4B hair puts xenophobia in folks because it's like this alien texture that our mothers never let us discover when we were young, nor did doll-makers expose us to it. So having 4B is like having a "new invention" that just takes time to become more familiar to us. And caring for it like having a new program that has glitches that need to be ironed out--just like every new program version does. *




Bosinse said:


> One of those people is Sera, and she admitted that it takes her a lot of time to care for her hair.


*I haven't really looked at Sera's journey from beginning to where she is  now, but that she takes long to care for her NOW VERY LONG HAIR is not the same as "it took a lot of time to care for it to get it to where it is now". Everyone with long hair has to spend some time on it. Asha Mandela with her floor-long locks has to wait for hours for them to dry while she cradles them in her arms in a towel like a baby. It just is what it is. Bill Gates used to work 16 hours a day even when he was already a tycoon. Some people like Paris can sit on their butts all day and still swim in money, but others have to put in some work to live the way they want to live. If you don't look at what you do as a hobby, then you will be miserable everyday you have to do it. I am sure if Sera didn't care to put in all the time she does, she'd have chopped that hair off. You have to learn to love what you have to do otherwise stop torturing yourself and know that it's OK to choose that route too. You don't have to kill yourself if it's making you so unhappy. Short hair is cute too. *



Bosinse said:


> I can think of dozens of people with type 1 and type 2 hair at that length who do nothing to their hair and it still gets to those lengths.


*I can also think of a lot of people with type 4B hair who do nothing and have hair that grows to its terminal length. Yes it locks but it grows. There are also many stories on this very forum of girls who had long hair as kids (natural) and they say they their mothers did very little to it. 

Bottom line: 4B hair on the head is not designe to BE short, but it may be designed to SHRINK and LOOK short for reasons already mentioned earlier in this thread. What you see and what really is could be two different things when it comes to unstraightened 4B hair. So let's stop saying it is DESIGNED/MEANT to be short unless we mean hair on our arms or legs; but rather it is DESIGNED/MEANT to appear/look/fool people into thinking it is short whether or not it is. *


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## naijamerican (Aug 17, 2010)

SimJam said:


> I think we all must keep this thread in the back of our minds going forward.
> 
> what I have got from this discussion is that the main issue with having long (by whatever yardstick one wants to use) 4b hair is dealing with its natural tendency to curl/shrink back up on itself, which leads to several "potential" retention constraints and frustration, specifically regarding dealing with detangling.
> 
> so I think what we must do is share any methods/techniques we come across that lessen the time taken to detangle and effort required for maintaining long 4b hair


I really appreciate SND4's posts asking us about what our own standards of hair actually are. 

Nonetheless, I really want to focus on what SimJam said, especially her last paragraph. What are some of the techniques and methods that people are using to detangle their hair? Some of us, due to a variety of factors, want to have long hair. So what are people doing to achieve it?

For me, detangling is not a nightmare per se, but it does take about 30 minutes and I probably don't have more than 5 inches of hair (I big chopped last year and had a quarter of an inch of hair, even though I've been natural for several years. I just wanted to try something different. ). I use the following tools:

1. Widetooth seamless comb
2. Finer-toothed seamless comb
3. Castor oil
4. Conditioner with slip (Elucence or Aubrey Organics)

I purchased the combs from www.hotcombs.net; I use the Hercules Sägemann line. 

I will soon begin incorporating rice bran oil, hemp seed oil, and wheat germ oils as MsCocoface does. I kind of wish she would weigh in on this discussion because she has magnificent 4B hair that's about bra-strap length, and she wears her hair in twists and braids.


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## naijamerican (Aug 17, 2010)

:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy at Nonie.


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## Foxglove (Aug 17, 2010)

For me I honestly don't use anything other than my Jilbere shower comb to detangle and I do it once a week in the shower with my hair soaked in conditioner. I used to use the denman but my hair looked the same afterwards so I figured what's the point of fighting to get this thing through my hair if it's not changing anything. It's saved me so much time and my hair doesn't seem to be suffering for it

ETA I did find this video for a product called the tangle teezer. The reviewer has very tightly coiled hair. I'm trying to curbmy inner PJ so I haven't bought it yet but I may purchase it at some point
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpG1esRtrtc


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## Hairsofab (Aug 17, 2010)

Nonie said:


> *Bottom line: 4B hair on the head is not designe to BE short, but it may be designed to SHRINK and LOOK short for reasons already mentioned earlier in this thread. What you see and what really is could be two different things when it comes to unstraightened 4B hair. So let's stop saying it is DESIGNED/MEANT to be short unless we mean hair on our arms or legs; but rather it is DESIGNED/MEANT to appear/look/fool people into thinking it is short whether or not it is. *


 
Honestly, I don't see the big deal with saying 4b hair is meant to be short. Like someone else said, if people think short hair in and of itself is a bad thing, that is a cultural value placed on it not something inherent. I don't see a big difference in making a distinction between "looking short" and "meant to be short either". To me if hair looks short, it is short. Our hair wasn't meant to be straightened with hot combs/relaxers, it is a styling option people have adopted only in recent times. We can see the length of the hair strand when it is straightened, but the strand still appears to be short when it naturally coils back on itself.If it grows and grows and still looks short, to me, that means it was meant to be short. Its not meant to be derisive. Because I don't think it is. I think short hair is beautiful as well as long. 

I am not saying people with 4b hair can't ever grow their hair out, just that I don't think the coil pattern of the hair allows for easy retention that leads to hair that is long or appears long. I don't see how anyone can dispute that. For every 4b you can name that is mid back length on the internet, I can name 2 or 3 people with type 1-2 hair in real life who are also the same length with none to minimal effort.


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## Stormy (Aug 17, 2010)

Nonie said:


> *I think if 4B hair was designed to be short, it'd get to a certain length and then just break off because something in its design would prevent it from being able to support the weight of its new length.* I do think by designed it's supposed to curl back down no matter what its length for the temperature control and scalp protection already mentioned.
> 
> *By design, eyelashes, eyebrows, and hair on your skin are supposed to stay short* which is why you very rarely see people covered in long hair from head to toe looking like baboons. When you do see a hairy person, they are more of a freak than the norm.


 
I agree with the bolded! Also, I just think it's designed to shrink just like other hair types are designed to stay straight, wave or curl up. Not hold a curl, braid or whatever. BTW... I loooove my shrinkage! I think it's the coolest thing!


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## southerncitygirl (Aug 17, 2010)

qchelle said:


> I'm liking the responses
> 
> I wonder what our big lips and wide/flat noses are for? hmmm...??? Anybody wanna take a stab at it? I'm curious.....(or I could just google it  )


 

its been proven that with our flatter features the sun bounces off our face differently, melanin is only one smaller piece of the puzzle as to why we age well.


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## Nonie (Aug 17, 2010)

Bosinse said:


> Honestly, *I don't see the big deal with saying 4b hair is meant to be short*. Like someone else said, if people think short hair in and of itself is a bad thing, that is a cultural value placed on it not something inherent. I don't see a big difference in making a distinction between "looking short" and "meant to be short either". To me if hair looks short, it is short. Our hair wasn't meant to be straightened with hot combs/relaxers, it is a styling option people have adopted only in recent times. We can see when we straightened the length of the hair strand, but the strand still appears to be short when it naturally coils back on itself.If it grows and grows and still looks short, to me, that means it was meant to be short. Its not meant to be derisive. Because I don't think it is. I think short hair is beautiful as well as long.
> 
> I am not saying people with 4b hair can't ever grow their hair out, just that I don't think the coil pattern of the hair allows for easy retention that leads to hair that is long or appears long. I don't see how anyone can dispute that. For every 4b you can name that is mid back length on the internet, I can name 2 or 3 people with type 1-2 hair in real life who are also the same length with none to minimal effort.



I guess you are one of those people who judges a book by its cover. How things look to you is how they are, the end. You see a little boy from India and you assume he's got the mental capacity of any other kid his age not realizing that the kid you're looking at has actually attended conferences with doctors and is a genius that actually holds discussions on the advancement of medicine with people old enough to be his grandpa. Appearances can be deceiving, and not just when it comes to hair, but when it comes to everything. 

What's wrong with *that statement* is it is untrue and totally ignores that fact that things _meant to be_ would just be no matter what you did and it would take having to do something _unnatural_ to get it to be what it isn't meant to be and most times when you try to mess up with what was meant to be, you pay gravely.

Take for example pale people. They are meant to be pale coz that was in the blueprint of their makeup. But when they decide that they will apply darkening products and spend a lot of time in the sun to create the illusion of melanin that wasn't really there, they get cancer. They were never meant to be that dark and they have to do unnatural things to change what was meant to me.

Another example there are bodybuilders whose bodies bulk up naturally. They are meant to be huge. Then along comes a tiny little person who is not meant to be that huge and she takes steroids to bulk up and ends up with all sorts of ailments from that. 

Eyelashes are not meant to be longer than what is normal to each person, so people buy products to make them grow abnormally long. And what happens? They may get them long but they also risk iris eye color change and there have been more serious ailments from previous products, IIRC even blindness. Why? Coz your eyelashes were not MEANT to be that long.

Jocelyn Wildenstein was not meant to look like a cat coz she's human and we all know what trying to be what she was not meant to be did to her face. 

If 4B hair was not meant to grow long, it would not grow long, period, unless you got some shots, took some special magic pills, saw a witchdoctor, got touched by an angel...whatever. Yeah, maybe a handful of people do get that done to grow their hair, but there are so many more people who aren't doing anything unnatural and growing long 4B hair. I guess they must be special because it is isn't meant to be but it is for them, huh? 

Making such sweeping statements like "4B hair is meant to be short" is as crazy to me as saying "Americans are meant to be fat" based on the fact that the %age of people in the US who are overweight is high. Neither of those is MEANT TO BE otherwise the alternative would not exist at all. There are reasons 4B hair may be short (bad hair care practices due to ignorance of what's best for it, for example), which if addressed would reveal what is truly _meant_to be. Just like there are reasons for the obesity you see (unhealthy diets and lifestyles, for example) which if addressed can show you what really is meant to be.


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## greight (Aug 17, 2010)

AvaSpeaks said:


> Then why are you here on the LONG HAIR CARE Board?
> 
> *Isn't the purpose of this board to show that our hair can grow long? Regardless? I mean barring illness, sickness or extreme hair problems*.



Yes, but I do think people have to be realistic/honest about what it takes for 4b natural hair to get there. I personally believe it takes a different kind of effort and patience, especially if you've been relaxed for most of your life. You're learning a new language that's finicky and changes every season.

I have fine, coily strands. I cannot do wash and goes anymore beyond 6 inches without getting out trimming scissors for the aftermath. 

Plus, I think protective styles are a must for 4b hair to grow long. Some do not like the idea of not being able to wear their own hair out. I'd love to rock a fro, but I can't if I want to grow my hair long. 

Other hair types can get away with certain things more so than 4bs. Doesn't mean that one is better than another, it's just that you gotta be realistic about how much time and effort you are going to put in.


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## greight (Aug 17, 2010)

naijamerican said:


> I really appreciate SND4's posts asking us about what our own standards of hair actually are.
> 
> Nonetheless, I really want to focus on what SimJam said, especially her last paragraph. *What are some of the techniques and methods that people are using to detangle their hair? Some of us, due to a variety of factors, want to have long hair. So what are people doing to achieve it?*



I'm still learning. I've realized that I need to perfect how I wash/condition my hair because I feel that I still don't get my hair rinsed perfectly in braids or twists. It irks me to no end. Last wash, I did a clarify/moisturizing 'poo/protein/deep condition and that means if I didn't wash it all out properly the first go around, then I was setting my hair up for a disaster. I had to unleash the hair to rinse properly 

My hair does need to be stretched out to it's apex in order for me to minimize the headaches. 

Methods that I've tried:
1. I used castor oil to soften the hair up and add olive oil for additional slip. I felt like my hair wasn't soft enough, however, and felt like I was breaking more hair using this detangling method.

2. Conditioner (Lustrasilk... V05 does nothing for me) - this is okay, but also has it's issues because my hair shrinks up with the conditioner (especially if it has good slip) and that's asking for SSKs 

3. Aloe Vera Juice - this worked well for me because I sprayed it on so it didn't get to wet and I was able to work quickly to get the shed hairs out. It works better if hair was previously detangled, however. 

I was thinking about threading my hair into small sections (20 sections) and working it out like that.


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## Kurlee (Aug 17, 2010)

Nonie said:


> I guess you are one of those people who judges a book by its cover. How things look to you is how they are, the end. You see a little boy from India and you assume he's got the mental capacity of any other kid his age not realizing that the kid you're looking at has actually attended conferences with doctors and is a genius that actually holds discussions on the advancement of medicine with people old enough to be his grandpa. Appearances can be deceiving, and not just when it comes to hair, but when it comes to everything.
> 
> What's wrong with *that statement* is it is untrue and totally ignores that fact that things _meant to be_ would just be no matter what you did and it would take having to do something _unnatural_ to get it to be what it isn't meant to be and most times when you try to mess up with what was meant to be, you pay gravely.
> 
> ...


this entire post is fantastic


----------



## Kurlee (Aug 17, 2010)

to the OP, no, I do not think 4b hair is designed to be short.  As a whole, most are very misinformed about 3c and up type of hair and these hair types are usually stereotyped, mistreated and ignored when it comes to research, except for a fringe element (online boards and those who are actually in a position to research AND give a damn).  I think many are missing the fact that those who are in the position to learn and study this type of hair, usually do not have the hair and do not understand the hair type.  Also, I feel that those usually in a position to do the research USUALLY are not interested in these areas and even if they are confronted with it, do so with preconceived biases. Lack of knowledge is what I think separates the relative ease and care of some hair types and the apparent "difficulty" of others.


----------



## laurend (Aug 17, 2010)

ebonylocs said:


> I agree with OP and mwedzi on this. In the past I grew out my 4b natural hair to BSL / MBL in about 3 yrs, but it took nearly constant protective styling and multiple-hour detangling sessions as I treated my hair like fragile silk. Most of the time I had my hair in twists or extensions and just left it alone, except for fortnightly washing & conditioning and nearly daily moisturising / baggying the ends. That worked because I was a student and appearances didn't matter much. But the marathon fortnightly detangling sessions were a pain in the ***, so was the fact that I couldn't wear my hair out without tangles and jepordizing my length, and because of shrinkage, I didn't know how long it was until I relaxed it.
> 
> Now, I am not willing to spend all that time on my hair. First I texlaxed because I wasn't ready to let go of texture, and now after a year of no 'laxing at all, I am ready to go fully straight. I love the look and feel of natural 4b hair, but I can't deal with the tangles right now. The tangling and fragility that are characteristic of my hair type are preventing me from retaining like I would like. I figure I can't get rid of the fragility - might as well reduce the tangles - might actually help me retain better if it doesn't add too much to the fragility.
> 
> And no, no one is talking about a "deficit". Like Mwedzi said, it's just a neutral characteristic of my hair. Calling it a deficit would mean there is something innately good / superior about long hair, and I don't believe that is the case. And yes, theoretically, the strands of my 4b natural hair could grow to tailbone length *if* I did nothing to break them. But it is the lengths I would have to go to to *not* break them that are at issue here.


 
I agree with the OP, Mwedzi, and the above statement.  I have mainly 4a hair but it hasn't grown a long as others on the board.  Me and LennieB were the same length at one time but she has surpassed me and is waist length.  I have been doing all the right techniques so I asked myself why?  Why aren't I waist length also?  The only thing I probably have to do differently is staying in a protective hair style 4 to 6 weeks at a time.  I hate that because protective hairstyles aren't the best look for me.


----------



## SND411 (Aug 17, 2010)

laurend said:


> I agree with the OP, Mwedzi, and the above statement.  I have mainly 4a hair but it hasn't grown a long as others on the board.  Me and LennieB were the same length at one time but she has surpassed me and is waist length.  I have been doing all the right techniques so I asked myself why?  Why aren't I waist length also?  The only thing I probably have to do differently is staying in a protective hair style 4 to 6 weeks at a time.  I hate that because protective hairstyles aren't the best look for me.



But there are soooo many of factors that could have been in play. Hair growth and retention is not just based on hair techniques. Internal chemistry of the hair shaft, health, eating habits, exercise, genetics, the speed of hair growth, weather, stress, and hair cycles have a lot to do with it as well


----------



## laurend (Aug 17, 2010)

SND411 said:


> But there are soooo many of factors that could have been in play. Hair growth and retention is not just based on hair techniques. Internal chemistry of the hair shaft, health, eating habits, exercise, genetics, the speed of hair growth, weather, stress, and hair cycles have a lot to do with it as well


 
Health: excellent
Exercise: Exercise physiologist and fitness instructor
Eating habits look at the above
The difference, yes I agree with is genetics, I have 4a hair and she has 3 c hair.


----------



## laurend (Aug 17, 2010)

Don't get me wrong my hair is MBL. However, it's not full MBL and it seems that people who have hair like mine and are waist length are either short or stayed in protective hairstyles for weeks on in for many years.


----------



## Kurlee (Aug 17, 2010)

long story short:

good hair vs. bad hair will never leave us


----------



## DaDragonPrincess (Aug 17, 2010)

Girl no, if thats the case I wouldn't be MBL...look around this hair forum, lots of ladies of 4a-4b hair and long...
​


----------



## laurend (Aug 17, 2010)

Kurlee said:


> long story short:
> 
> good hair vs. bad hair will never leave us


 

I don't think people here were thinking that 4b hair is bad I think people were stating it is what it is.  It takes a lot to get 4b hair to certain length that's it.


----------



## Bnster (Aug 17, 2010)

Maybe shorter but not short. What I mean by this is type 4 hair can be long especially when stretched, but naturally it winds itself back up (like a spring) because the curls are tight.  In that perspective type 4 hair left to its on accord tends to be shorter but it is deceiving because the true length of the hair is all bound up in all the tightly beautiful curls. I love feeling my new growth coils and unbounding them to see how much new growth I have.  There are lots of naturals with long hair unstretched so there is a more wow factor when it is stretched. I love seeing that.


----------



## jupitermoon (Aug 17, 2010)

SND411 said:


> But just because we have to do things differently than people with type 1 or 2 hair, does not mean it is designed to be short? *Why are type 1 and 2 hair types always the standard of hair or hair care in general?* 4b is TIGHTLY coiled hair, while types 1 and 2 or not. IT IS A GIVEN that we take care of our hair in different manners.
> 
> 
> *It is sort of like body types. Are people who easily gain weight compared to those with fast metabolism/remain skinny meant to be obese? No. Yes, some people who need to work harder to maintain a healthy/athletic shape, but it does not mean they are doing something unnatural*.


 
This is how I feel.  It may be harder for some but I think most people can grow hair that is at least bra strap.

Interesting thread and I like reading everyone's views.


----------



## SND411 (Aug 17, 2010)

Why do people think just because our coils rewind on to itself, our hair is designed to be short? Here we go again with thinking types 1 and 2 are the standard. So long hair is only considered long when it appears to grow vertically down your back like straighter textures? I do not know about anyone else, but I can tell when someone with 4b hair IRL has long hair by the size of their afro. Why cant long hair also be the circumference/radius of an afro? I have very coarse 4b hair and even at this point in my journey, my afro is starting to hang.


----------



## SND411 (Aug 17, 2010)

laurend said:


> Health: excellent
> Exercise: Exercise physiologist and fitness instructor
> Eating habits look at the above
> The difference, yes I agree with is genetics, I have 4a hair and she has 3 c hair.



So what about women with all your stats with 3b/3c hair that are still not at *YOUR* length?


----------



## Kurlee (Aug 17, 2010)

laurend said:


> I don't think people here were thinking that 4b hair is bad I think people were stating it is what it is.  It takes a lot to get 4b hair to certain length that's it.


I think u just might be jaded from your experience. It's not a good idea to compare yourself to others, because you might assume too much and discount yourself. I'm a 4a and my girlfriend is a silky, shiny and THICK, 3a and her hair never passes her shoulders. She tries everything, lurks on the board, uses good products, even PS with weaves and hair stays around just about shoulder length and no, she's not relaxed. I think people need to find what works FOR THEIR particular head, because there are wayyyyyyyy too many factors (like someone said "internal chemistry", growth factors and such) that go into hair growth and retention, that go beyond someones curl pattern, to sum up that certain hair types are just meant to do anything.


----------



## naijamerican (Aug 17, 2010)

laurend said:


> I agree with the OP, Mwedzi, and the above statement.  I have mainly 4a hair but it hasn't grown a long as others on the board.  Me and LennieB were the same length at one time but she has surpassed me and is waist length.  I have been doing all the right techniques so I asked myself why?  Why aren't I waist length also?  The only thing I probably have to do differently is staying in a protective hair style 4 to 6 weeks at a time.  I hate that because protective hairstyles aren't the best look for me.



I see what you're saying.  You're not arguing that 4B hair can't grow. You're talking about the fact that, in order to look long (long as we know "long" to be, not including what SND has pointed out ) it takes different techniques (low-maintenance/low manipulation styles). 

Having said that, I think there's something to what SND is saying. Why constrain our definition of "long" to be vertical down our backs? Why not vertical up to the sky, or horizontal as our coils stretch out? Honestly, I've never thought of it that way.  I'm glad that you pointed it out, SND.


----------



## SND411 (Aug 17, 2010)

Maybe its just me, but I have witnesses many 4bs (here, youtube, blogs, etc.) that do not have to do a lot with their hair in order for it to grow long. I see some people on this forum that have 3a/3b/3c with regimens that are like mine x7, more time consuming than mine, that probably cost them $100 more than my budget for hair products.


----------



## Nonie (Aug 17, 2010)

laurend said:


> Health: excellent
> Exercise: Exercise physiologist and fitness instructor
> Eating habits look at the above
> The difference, yes I agree with is genetics, I have 4a hair and she has 3 c hair.





SND411 said:


> *So what about women with all your stats with 3b/3c hair that are still not at YOUR length?*



Exactly!

Laurend, there's also the issue of growth cycle. Yours might not be as long as say Stephanie Suthers' so that may also explain why your growth may seem to have stopped at MBL.


----------



## Freespirit02 (Aug 17, 2010)

Esthi777 said:


> No, I don't think it's designed to be short. I don't have 4b hair but I believe all hair grows. My best friends hair is 4zzz and relaxed and it's APL. It's all about what you do to retain length. *My hair doesn't need a relaxer.* It's curly but grows in straight and I was practically bald because I wasn't taking care of my hair.  I think people feel my hair should be long because of it's texture but bottom line, no matter what texture, hair can be long if maintained properly




And what type hair needs a perm??..i'm going to leave that one alone..


----------



## Kurlee (Aug 17, 2010)

loveurself84 said:


> And what type hair needs a perm??..i'm going to leave that one alone..


 people telling on themselves


----------



## Freespirit02 (Aug 17, 2010)

To the OP..i'm sorry you are going through this dilemma with your hair. I hope you find something that works. I personally haven't had this problem..i actually find my hair is easier to manage natural..than with it permed/relax..but that's just me.


----------



## Freespirit02 (Aug 17, 2010)

qchelle said:


> I'm liking the responses
> 
> *I wonder what our big lips and wide/flat noses are for?* hmmm...??? Anybody wanna take a stab at it? I'm curious.....(or I could just google it  )




not all black ppl have big lips...or wide/flat noses. Lord let me get out of this thread...


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## naijamerican (Aug 17, 2010)

loveurself84 said:


> And what type hair needs a perm??..i'm going to leave that one alone..



4B hair. Didn't you know? erplexed 

  

I'm going to trust that the poster didn't mean it the way it came across.


----------



## Kurlee (Aug 17, 2010)

loveurself84 said:


> not all black ppl have big lips...or wide/flat noses. Lord let me get out of this thread...


 the ignorance is just


----------



## Freespirit02 (Aug 17, 2010)

Kurlee said:


> the ignorance is just




i guess so. I don't know what is more disturbing..that ppl still think like that or it was a black woman who said it..


----------



## naijamerican (Aug 17, 2010)

loveurself84 said:


> To the OP..i'm sorry you are going through this dilemma with your hair. I hope you find something that works. I personally haven't had this problem..i actually find my hair is easier to manage natural..than with it permed/relax..but that's just me.



It's funny that you say this, because I've been natural for so long that the prospect of getting a relaxer kind of scares me. I don't know what I would do to my hair and I would have to search these forums far and wide for advice. 

I also thought of something else that Nonie brought up earlier in this thread. She was arguing against the idea that 4B hair is more time consuming because of issues like detangling, styling, etc. and she said that if you don't embrace this as a hobby, it will seem like a daunting task, taking care of your hair. For me, I don't at all mind what some might perceive to be the styling limitations of low-manipulation styles because I actually prefer those styles. I like braids and I really like twists. They look good on me.  And if I ever want to use heat, I'll follow Mwedzi's method of doing so. But I like the freedom of braids and twists because I'm a busy student and I've started exercising more often (and I hope to become even more active). I don't know... I just kind of feel like, after so long of disliking my hair, I've come to accept and welcome its nuances and to see things in a different light. 

Anyway... I just wanted to say that.


----------



## bebee10 (Aug 17, 2010)

Bnster said:


> Maybe shorter but not short. What I mean by this is *type 4 hair can be long especially when stretched, but naturally it winds itself back up (like a spring) because the curls are tight. In that perspective type 4 hair left to its on accord tends to be shorter but it is deceiving because the true length of the hair is all bound up in all the tightly beautiful curls.* I love feeling my new growth coils and unbounding them to see how much new growth I have. There are lots of naturals with long hair unstretched so there is a more wow factor when it is stretched. I love seeing that.


 
I think this def makes ALOT of sense. so if this is true then one CAN say that "4b hair is not meant to be short" "but is short by design"?erplexed?


----------



## Rei (Aug 17, 2010)

loveurself84 said:


> not all black ppl have big lips...or wide/flat noses. Lord let me get out of this thread...



Come on now you know what she meant. Not all black people have 4b hair either, but you cannot deny that that is a characteristic that is commonly associated with black folk. Not all black folk have 4b afros yes. not all black folk have flat noses true. not all black people have large lips. however the non-aquiline nose and larger lips are a common trait of black folk. this is not ignorance, its just a generalized statement. 

damn some of ya'll are seriously reaching for drama with this


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## femmemuscle (Aug 18, 2010)

Just ordered my copy of "hair story" on Amazon.com.  You can get it  "used" for $.81!!!  That's it!  less than a dollar!!

I just bought out the last $.77 copy!!  Hurry! i think Nonie started something


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## mscocoface (Aug 18, 2010)

naijamerican said:


> I really appreciate SND4's posts asking us about what our own standards of hair actually are.
> 
> Nonetheless, I really want to focus on what SimJam said, especially her last paragraph. What are some of the techniques and methods that people are using to detangle their hair? Some of us, due to a variety of factors, want to have long hair. So what are people doing to achieve it?
> 
> ...


 
 I am here. 

Just want to give a major  and  to all my 4B sistahs who have been on this journey and dropping some serious knowledge up in this joint.

Thank you NA for asking for me.

I agree with what many are talking saying and the fact that this has been a frank, honest, open and civil conversation regarding this type of hair that let's be honest many fear and some are terrified of dealing with.

For the question that OP asked. I do NOT believe our hair is designed to be short. I have seen it in too many lengths from looking at pictures of ladies in Africa and other countries to those here in the states that have grown their hair to lengths many of us hope to have one day.

I believe part of our issue is that our hair does not have the history or we have lost the history of how to keep it healthy and growing. When for hundreds of years you have had the MENTAL mind set of it being called bad, hard, difficult, (insert every negative remark you remember here), etc. You walk into even salons and hairdressers cop major attitude and even on this site which has been in existence for less than 10 years you may catch a comment or two that may make you say ouch and we are still learning the different ways in which to help support this cottony mass of wonderfulness we call 4B hair. I will admit we don't have as many hair idols when it comes to our texture. But the list is steady growing. Just think what the list was like just 5 years ago.

BUT - having said all that. I see us as the pioneers to learn more and to educate many regarding our texture and what we can do to make things easier when understanding how to grow our hair. I realize there will be no cookie cutter method per se but just like I have learned over the past few months (and I have been on this journey for many many years) I will probably continue to learn more about things to help my hair.

Even in that last 2 months I can say that two major changes have taken place for me in education and that is learning about PH balance for the hair and using oils with ceremides. Who knew for me this would cut down on my tangles and knots to the point where I no longer fear washing and combing. My detangling time has been cut to almost nothing. Now if I had given up, decided to go back to relaxers or just deal with pressing and curling, I would probably not have found this out and defintely would not be commenting in this thread.

Now my number 1 challenge yes it is number 1 even over detangling has been shrinkage. Many of you have witness my issue with this and I have to tell you the shrinkage my hair can have would make grown women cry and huddle in a corner sucking their thumbs. No joke! 

But I determined that there has to be a way (Mental Shift) to deal with this and continue on my journey of natural hair. I am happy to report I am becoming more CONTENT and accepting of what my hair can and cannot do and have learned ways to work my hair where it shows some of my length in its natural state. Has this been easy to do? NO, I have been frustrated, angry, discouraged, defeated, everything under the sun. It is all about the journey because just like this thread and folks wondering and having epiphanies there will be others who will read or hear my testimony or yours regarding all the wonders of this hair type.

I would like to encourage, dare I say challenge all of you to keep learning, keep accepting your hair and its texture and learning what your hair needs versus what you think it needs.  There is no magical mixture or elixir, it is trial and error in most cases and sometimes what works now may not work later, but I can promise you when you find the right balance and regimen it is some serious hallelujah shouting good times.

And please remember there are a few of us on this board who will make the time to talk with you and when needed to listen to your highs and lows when dealing with your crowning glory! 

If this post helps just one person, then my journey has been worth it. Seriously 

Thanks for the post OP.  Great conversation!


----------



## naijamerican (Aug 18, 2010)

mscocoface said:


> I am here.
> 
> Just want to give a major  and  to all my 4B sistahs who have been on this journey and dropping some serious knowledge up in this joint.
> 
> ...



This was a fabulous post.  I'm so glad you came in. I love the bolded in particular! 

Do you mind sharing what you've learned about PH balance? And am I correct in the oils that you're using?


----------



## notlookingback06 (Aug 18, 2010)

OP, I think that this is a very honest and fair question as I have type 4 hair (a mix of 4a/4b & a lil' 3c IMHO) and I had this same thought when I went natural 4yrs ago. I intentionally kept my predominately type 4 hair cut short for about the first two years of my natural journey because of the ease of managing it; in addition to my hair type, my hair is *very* thick! My mother says that the texture, the density and the length that I had as a 7yr old girl (an inch or two below MBL) was the reason that she gave me my first relaxer and hair cut at the ripe old age of 7yrs old!!!  

Nevertheless, as others have stated in response to your thread, if you do a search of some of the ladies on here and YouTube with type 4 hair (I'll include myself in your search) you'll see that the way that you care for your type 4 hair, makes all the difference. My hair is incredibly managable and I can do it in so many different styles, *ALL* _without heat, breakage or trims...._ 

Again, it's about the time, care, and attention that you give your hair, and you and your hair deserve time, care, and attention! 

Be encouraged and don't give up!


----------



## mscocoface (Aug 18, 2010)

naijamerican said:


> This was a fabulous post.  I'm so glad you came in. I love the bolded in particular!
> 
> Do you mind sharing what you've learned about PH balance? And am I correct in the oils that you're using?


 

Yes, you are correct about the oils.  I have always been an oils person my hair seems to thrive with them. This may not be the case with others but for me my hair loves it.  I have been using the ceremides type oils and the detangling and softness has been drastic to say the least.

As for the PH balance I looked at the youtuber Kimmaytube and listen to what she had to say about PH balance.  One of my big issues was how crunchy may hair would be and the fact that as I was putting it in twists or braids and as it was drying it would just be hard and crunchy and the ends would be like miniature tumbleweeds they were just balls and hard at that.

Well I changed my leave in to a lower PH and tweeked a little my conditioner with one of the ceremide oils and and there has been a MAJOR difference. Not more tumbleweeds and the ends of my twists.  

I also do an oil conditioning with the Hemp Seed Oil before I hit the shower to wash my hair and it helps with the detangling when I am in the shower.

Just a few simple changes nothing huge and I am seeing huge benefits.  I can now go weeks with the same style and do cowashing and no longer run the risk of it dreading like it use to do. 

I have a spray that I mix with a little of one the cereimide oils and a braid spray or whatever I find in my cabinet and I use it to spritz my hair daily just to give it some moisture.  Also I can *undo* my twists when they are dry.  I could never evah think of doing that before or I would be in serious trouble and looking for scissors to cut out the tangle at the bottom losing some serious length.

You guys know what I am talking about the sound of snap, crackle and pop when you take your hair down from braids or twists, yeah that sound, well for me that is looong gone now.


----------



## mscocoface (Aug 18, 2010)

notlookingback06 said:


> OP, I think that this is a very honest and fair question as I have type 4 hair (a mix of 4a/4b & a lil' 3c IMHO) and I had this same thought when I went natural 4yrs ago. I intentionally kept my predominately type 4 hair cut short for about the first two years of my natural journey because of the ease of managing it; in addition to my hair type, my hair is *very* thick! My mother says that the texture, the density and the length that I had as a 7yr old girl (an inch or two below MBL) was the reason that she gave me my first relaxer and hair cut at the ripe old age of 7yrs old!!!
> 
> Nevertheless, as others have stated in response to your thread, if you do a search of some of the ladies on here and YouTube with type 4 hair (I'll include myself in your search) you'll see that the way that you care for your type 4 hair, makes all the difference. My hair is incredibly managable and I can do it in so many different styles, *ALL* _without heat, breakage or trims...._
> 
> ...


 

Can't thank you enough on these boled.  You have got to keep your *mind strong* about what it is your are trying to accomplish and know that you are in it for the long haul.


----------



## notlookingback06 (Aug 18, 2010)

subbing! this thread is very interesting and enlightening....


----------



## naijamerican (Aug 18, 2010)

mscocoface said:


> Yes, you are correct about the oils.  I have always been an oils person my hair seems to thrive with them. This may not be the case with others but for me my hair loves it.  I have been using the ceremides type oils and the detangling and softness has been drastic to say the least.
> 
> As for the PH balance I looked at the youtuber Kimmaytube and listen to what she had to say about PH balance.  One of my big issues was how crunchy may hair would be and the fact that as I was putting it in twists or braids and as it was drying it would just be hard and crunchy and the ends would be like miniature tumbleweeds they were just balls and hard at that.
> 
> ...



Thank you so much; this is extremely helpful.  

Just another question for clarification: what leave-in are you using? Also, do you still use Ayurvedic products for your hair?

Thanks again so much!  At this point in this thread it would be most useful to trade tips on what works for different women.


----------



## notlookingback06 (Aug 18, 2010)

mscocoface said:


> Can't thank you enough on these boled. You have got to keep your *mind strong* about what it is your are trying to accomplish and know that you are in it for the long haul.


 
Thank you mscocoface, and I couldn't agree with you more!!!


----------



## mscocoface (Aug 18, 2010)

naijamerican said:


> Thank you so much; this is extremely helpful.
> 
> Just another question for clarification: what leave-in are you using? Also, do you still use Ayurvedic products for your hair?
> 
> Thanks again so much!  At this point in this thread it would be most useful to trade tips on what works for different women.


 

I have to admit, due to time issues I have not used my Ayurvedics in about 6 months.  So I have depended heavily on my deep conditioning with oils.  But when I did use them I loved them.  For me now I had to focus on getting the most for the time I had to deal with my hair.

As for the leave in I was using the carefree curl, but I saw the kimmaytube and thought if I could get my hair to stay soft for much longer time with putting a leavin on once and just spritzing for moisture that would be the best for me.  

I had the products the basic products she mentioned so I thought let me give it a try and it worked.  So that was good for my hair during and after my styling now I wanted something for conditioning that would be just as simple and that for me was the ceremides and deep conditioning. Again simpler than using the Ayurvedics powders and preparing me, the room, the floor  you get what I am saying.   I LOVE Ayurvedics just could no longer spend the time with them like I was able to in the past. 

The goal was more with less time involvement.  My haircare can no longer consume my time, money and energy.  There had to be a happy medium.  I am in this healthy haircare journey for the long haul so I had to find a way that made sense for the foreseeable future.


----------



## notlookingback06 (Aug 18, 2010)

mscocoface said:


> You guys know what I am talking about the sound of snap, crackle and pop when you take your hair down from braids or twists, yeah that sound, well for me that is looong gone now.


 
Yes indeedy! Actually, unrefined Virgin Coconut Oil helped me to get rid of that snap, crackle, and pop sound!   Yep, loooong gone now too!


----------



## naijamerican (Aug 18, 2010)

mscocoface said:


> I have to admit, due to time issues I have not used my Ayurvedics in about 6 months.  So I have depended heavily on my deep conditioning with oils.  But when I did use them I loved them.  For me now I had to focus on getting the most for the time I had to deal with my hair.
> 
> As for the leave in I was using the carefree curl, but I saw the kimmaytube and thought if I could get my hair to stay soft for much longer time with putting a leavin on once and just spritzing for moisture that would be the best for me.
> 
> ...



Thank you again so much. As for the bolded, I am at the same point in my hair journey and in life in general. I simply don't have oodles of time to devote to my hair and I'm trying to work smarter, not harder.  I've been checking out Kimmay's leave-in but I have to be honest: my hair does not seem to respond very well to aloe vera, whether it's the gel or the juice.  I'll need to substitute that for something else. Maybe I'll try coconut water instead...


----------



## mscocoface (Aug 18, 2010)

naijamerican said:


> Thank you again so much. As for the bolded, I am at the same point in my hair journey and in life in general. I simply don't have oodles of time to devote to my hair and I'm trying to work smarter, not harder.  I've been checking out Kimmay's leave-in but I have to be honest: my hair does not seem to respond very well to aloe vera, whether it's the gel or the juice.  I'll need to substitute that for something else. Maybe I'll try coconut water instead...


 
Give it a try with the coconut water.    As we have always known what works for one may not work for the other.  If you can find something to lower your PH if you feel that is your issue then it will be a big help with your hair and retaining its softness.


----------



## virtuenow (Aug 18, 2010)

SND411 said:


> But many 4b ladies, such as myself, KISS without having to leave a style in for many weeks at a time. I leave mine in two weeks maximum and can detangle/wash/condition my hair in about 1 hour. I also have VERY thick hair and have seen a lot of growth.


 
Hi, could you share your detangling technique.  I am trying to get my detangling time down as low as possible.  An hour would be a dream!  How long is your hair?? Suggestions from anyone else successfully doing this are welcome also!


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## almond eyes (Aug 18, 2010)

I have fine dense 4B hair with some sparse 3cs hanging out in the back of my hair and dispersed inside my hair. 

My parents are from Africa and in the villages all the women wore their hair braided without extensions but never worn out. The women with thicker and longer hair could wear one big braided bun. My mother said that all of her friends had hair that was at least shoulder length or longer but always kept braided.

The problems with the hair started when women wanted a more modern look in Africa and started to wear their hair out and wanted to wear relaxers without knowing how to apply them properly and weaves/extensions without understanding the proper techniques. 

Of course being in a Western society, the dream is to wear the hair loose and flowing. And I tried to do that and my hair failed miserably and looked terrible. 

Now, I realise that wearing my hair out is not the best thing for my hair and I can never style my hair neat enough (if that makes sense). I am now back in West Africa and many of the women here wear twists, braids, locks and cornrows (with and without extensions). Many of them have "long hair" but of course due to the shrinkage you can't tell. I recently took out my sew-in and put in some nicely done cornrows. And you know what I like my braids and I like how I look in them and they are the best protective style for my hair. I also think they look extremely professional for my job. If I want to have that wear my hair out look, I'll wear a weave.

It is what it is. 

Best,
Almond Eyes


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## SND411 (Aug 18, 2010)

virtuenow said:


> Hi, could you share your detangling technique.  I am trying to get my detangling time down as low as possible.  An hour would be a dream!  How long is your hair?? Suggestions from anyone else successfully doing this are welcome also!



Prior to washing/detangling, I seal my hair with olive oil. I find olive oil loosens many knot or tangles in my hair. Then I put my hair into seven sections and pin them up. Then I get into the shower. I use Kimmaytube's technique by smoothing out my sections first under water to get many of the shed hairs out first. Then I put  Organix shampoo in my hair to wash the section. Next, I put Trader Joe's conditioner on the section and comb through the section with a wide-tooth comb; from tip to root. After a few strokes that section is detangled and I pin back up my section. All this plus taking a quick shower takes me about 1 hour. 

Granted, after I wash my hair I twist my hair accordingly at each section using my leave-in (Kimmaytube). I may just comb through each twist section with two strokes to make sure it is tangle/knot-free.


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## J Hazel (Aug 18, 2010)

I have started using an oiling technique on my wash day regimen, recommended to me by Sereca.  I co-wash my hair as usual then place some type of oil (usually coconut or olive) on my hair and let it sit for 2-3 minutes while in the shower or up to 2 hours if not in the shower, then rinse and condition my hair as normal.  I am not sure why this works but it makes my hair softer and cuts down on time spent detangling. It works for me and may be something for you to consider too.


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## mscocoface (Aug 18, 2010)

J Hazel said:


> I have started using an oiling technique on my wash day regimen, recommended to me by Sereca. I co-wash my hair as usual then place some type of oil (usually coconut or olive) on my hair and let it sit for 2-3 minutes while in the shower or up to 2 hours if not in the shower, then rinse and condition my hair as normal. I am not sure why this works but it makes my hair softer and cuts down on time spent detangling. It works for me and may be something for you to consider too.


 

There is something about the oil that just works.  I think it helps keep the coiling or kinking from becoming tight so you are able to bring the comb down the shaft of the hair without so much resistence.

It works!


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## notlookingback06 (Aug 18, 2010)

virtuenow said:


> I don't know if its designed to be short, but I'm very discouraged right now. I haven't been on here in months- it seems- for that reason exactly. Feels like I'm fighting a [losing] battle w/my 4b hair sometimes.


 
Okay, from your siggy/avatar, your hair is BEAUTIFUL!!! I'm curious to know what's making you feel like you are fighting a [losing] battle at times.....


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## notlookingback06 (Aug 18, 2010)

ActionActress said:


> *The explains the APPEARANCE of being shorter which should be miscontrued with being short in the true sense. The hair oftentimes *is* long but if you straighten it some way , you'll find it long.*
> 
> *AA*


 
AA, I agree with you! I truly believe that type 4a/b hair APPEARS or SEEMS to be short or shorter than it truly is due to the coilyness of it; actually, I love the mystique of my natural, predominately type 4 hair because MANY people are absolutely *STUNNED* when I straighten it out!


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## Prettyeyes (Aug 18, 2010)

*I would like to add that if 4b hair was meant to be short simply because of shrinkage then ALL CURLY and COILY hair would be meant to be short because ALL curly and coily hair looks shorter than it is in it's natural state.SO WHY SINGLE OUT 4B? *My dd is 3c she has about 40% shrinkage. My 3c and 4a hair have 40% and 50% shrinkage respectively and I am sure our 3c and 4a hair is also harder to maintain than type 1 or 2 hair (though I never see why we should want to compare) so why single out 4b? Someone said that they only see 1 or 2 people with 4b long hair that is not true, I see them everyday little girls looking like Rudy Huxtable when their mother is caring for their hair and keeping it braided but they often grow up and start relaxing and then their hair is short...Just like many of us 3c and 4a hair types.


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## naijamerican (Aug 18, 2010)

Prettyeyes said:


> *I would like to add that if 4b hair was meant to be short simply because of shrinkage then ALL CURLY and COILY hair would be meant to be short because ALL curly and coily hair looks shorter than it is in it's natural state.SO WHY SINGLE OUT 4B? *My dd is 3c she has about 40% shrinkage. My 3c and 4a hair have 40% and 50% shrinkage respectively and I am sure our 3c and 4a hair is also harder to maintain than type 1 or 2 hair (though I never see why we should want to compare) so why single out 4b? Someone said that they only see 1 or 2 people with 4b long hair that is not true, I see them everyday little girls looking like Rudy Huxtable when their mother is caring for their hair and keeping it braided but they often grow up and start relaxing and then their hair is short...Just like many of us 3c and 4a hair types.



I understand what you're trying to get at, but the purpose of this thread was not to suggest that other curly/kinky-haired women don't share some commonalities with 4B hair types. The purpose was to try to elucidate why it is that many who have this hair type have a particularly hard time growing it out. The simple fact is that 4B hair is different than even 4A hair and 3c hair. Fundamentally different. The nature of the coils themselves are different. "Different" doesn't imply "better" or "worse;" it's just different. I'm glad that you have seen several little girls with 4B hair that is long. Quite frankly, I have not seen that very often in these parts, and as Mscocoface so eloquently stated, 4B hair is the type of hair that is most quick to receive a relaxer treatment or to assume that a relaxer is required. 

This isn't a "woe-is-me" post and this mentality isn't permeating this thread. We're simply discussing some of the challenges we've had, issues that many in the thread have provided excellent suggestions for.


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## notlookingback06 (Aug 18, 2010)

virtuenow said:


> Hi, could you share your detangling technique. I am trying to get my detangling time down as low as possible. An hour would be a dream! How long is your hair?? Suggestions from anyone else successfully doing this are welcome also!


 

Hi virtuenow, my detangling technique is very simple. Here are my steps: 

1. Prior to pooing or co-washing, I take down my hair (it's usually in 2-strand twists) & clip it into about 5-6 sections
2. using my handy spray bottle, I *saturate* each section with water
3. then I *saturate* each section with my Kirkland (Costco) Hydrating Conditioner (careful not to pull or tug at my hair)
4. then I slowly detangle with my fingers (I never use a comb when detangling)
5. _sometimes_, after doing steps #1-4, I allow the conditioner to sit on my hair for about 30-60 min. prior to actually washing the hair

***I've pretty much perfected the above and it takes about 30-45min. to complete the steps and when I get into the shower to actually wash it out, my fingers and/or wide-toothed shower comb glide through my hair like butter!!!!   HTH!!!


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## notlookingback06 (Aug 18, 2010)

naijamerican said:


> Quite frankly, I have not seen that very often in these parts, and as *Mscocoface so eloquently stated, 4B hair is the type of hair that is most quick to receive a relaxer treatment or to assume that a relaxer is required.*


 
The bolded statement above is unfortunately so true....again, my entire head isn't 4b but about 65%-70% of it is and that's exactly how i ended up relaxed and with a hair cut at age 7....it's just a matter of continuing to take the time to properly educate ourselves, to equip ourselves with the right tools for proper hair care and also to dispel the myths of natural type 4 hair.


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## Freespirit02 (Aug 18, 2010)

Rei said:


> Come on now you know what she meant. Not all black people have 4b hair either, but you cannot deny that that is a characteristic that is commonly associated with black folk. Not all black folk have 4b afros yes. not all black folk have flat noses true. not all black people have large lips. however the non-aquiline nose and larger lips are a common trait of black folk. this is not ignorance, its just a generalized statement.
> 
> damn some of ya'll are seriously reaching for drama with this




Not reaching for drama..if that is how you took it..then apologize. I just was stating not all black ppl have flat/large noses..or full lips. I was just a statement..


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## Junebug D (Aug 18, 2010)

Riverrock said:


> Oh, I saw that. I thought you were just emphasizing "density." That's an interesting theory. I've always thought the opposite that the thickness of the strand is more important. If all your strands are fragile and thin (like mine), it doesn't matter how much of them you have (like me), the strands will break leading to short hair. If your strands are thicker (which I tend to think of as stronger, less prone to breakage. Maybe this is incorrect?), the density does not matter, you'll still have long hair though it won't be as voluminous as some one who has dense hair. I think that's why black hair doesn't retain as easily. Our strands tend to be finer with less cuticle layers. Like spaghetti vs a lead pipe. I think it's all in the strands.


 
That sounds right to me as well, but just from looking at heads, it seemed to me that people with longer hair tend to have higher density, and I haven't really seen that play out as much with strand size. On a day-to-day basis, I see _very_ few low density people with long hair, but maybe people with less dense hair tend to wear it shorter anyway...?  

My idea was that breakage does not have as much an effect on the length of those with high density, unless of course they were putting their hair through uncommon stress & treatment.  But you are right that thicker hair is stronger and can deal with more uncommon/bad treatment. However, given the _uncommonly bad_ treatment that black people's hair experience on the whole, those with more strands may have an advantage. :scratchch  

And on a related point, I think low density is more common for Black people than thin hair strands.  This is just from observing as well. I see more type 4bs and "suspected" (can't tell because of relaxer) 4bs with lower density hair than I see other hair types with it. I see the argument for race-based differences here more clearly than I see with strand size.  



mwedzi said:


> Y'all, Sera said she takes up to 6 hours to detangle her hair. I'm just saying, even look at the favorite example. Is 6 hours of detangling what we're _meant_ to do? I mean, humans style their hair, so who knows what it's "meant" to do. We do what we want to do to it whether it's "meant" to be or not. *But just speaking for myself, I think my hair is meant to be locked or kept cut really short.* Braids take a gazillion years to do, cornrows are painful, and twists take a long time and still tangle. Of course I can do these things, *but every time I do any of them, I always feel that I am fighting my hair. *


 
I agree wholeheartedly with this post. Even then, are you "meant" to take scissors to your hair every few months to maintain a short 'do?   All of it feels like *fighting*, unless you, like some people have mentioned, enjoy and/or have grown accustomed to braiding and twisting sessions. Personally, I don't think any of it is "meant" except for organic, freeforming locs. But we reject that on the whole; "doing something" to your hair is seen as a part of basic grooming.   (I don't put much stock into what people did before slavery as a way of determining what is "meant" to be, because they had their own grooming and spiritual and cultural ideals as well. Maybe they had "little braids vs. big braids vs. locs vs. shaved head" arguments as well. )



SND411 said:


> But many 4b ladies, such as myself, KISS without having to leave a style in for many weeks at a time. I leave mine in two weeks maximum and can detangle/wash/condition my hair in about 1 hour. I also have VERY thick hair and have seen a lot of growth.


 


Nonie said:


> Not necessarily true. I KISS and I don't have long detangling sessions.


 
I bet this has something to do with thickness and density. These 2 things can make all the difference in the world between two heads of similar hair.


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## tocktick (Aug 18, 2010)

Haven't read through everything yet. But these are my 2 cents. I do not think it was designed to be short. If this was the case I believe the idea of terminal length would come into play but it doesn't because clearly people like Sonce and Sera are defying what many of us thought was common perception about 4b hair. These women know how to take care of their hair, which is the most important thing here. If you are equipped with the tools, the knowledge and the right mindset then I believe you can grow long hair. 

When people say it's hard to maintain or it's difficult...well, compared to what? If you approach your hair with the idea that it was never meant to be treated as straight hair, wavy or looser curly hair and thus can only be compared to itself or similar hair types then your idea of "difficult" changes, imo. You accept there may be things you need to do that maybe other people don't and vice versa. I have seen and heard many women born and raised in a few African countries (before relaxers were introduced to them) with type 4b hair speak of their hair experiences - there was no perception of what straight hair was like to deal with. They dealt with the hair they were given for what it was and most importantly had the knowledge of how to care for it - handed down to them from older ladies such as aunts, mothers and grandmothers. 

I've never heard from these ladies how "difficult" it was to care of their hair and their regimens seem a damn sight more simple than what I see a lot of women on this board doing. Even including myself in that! To expound, the main basics of their regimen was some kind of cleansing, moisturising (I've heard castor oil mentioned) and protective styling (braiding or wrapping thread around the hair). One of these women is my own mother who had thick, BSL hair and she knew girls who had longer hair than she did. 

I get that type 4 hair is the most fragile, has less cuticle layers and it is a dryer hair type. Yet I think the best thing for those with this hair type trying to grow it in it's natural state is to realise their hair simply has needs - not flaws - that need to be addressed. Some of these needs are different to other hair types but that shouldn't signify to anyone that it's inferior or flawed. It's simply different. Sure, that may mean it works better to keep it stretched in some way (like banding or twistouts) or needs more DCs or [fill in the blank]. I think some on this board prefer to complain (no you OP) about why type 4 hair is difficult, make non-type 4 hair seem like Teflon-coated Rapunzel hair (when it really isn't!) and maintain a self-defeatist attitude that makes their hair journey far more problematic than it needs to be.

Now, to read the rest of the thread...


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## Nonie (Aug 18, 2010)

Junebug D said:


> I bet this has something to do with thickness and density. These 2 things can make all the difference in the world between two heads of similar hair.



Can you elaborate please? I have very fine strands (I'll try to post pics with some reference so you can see) and I have a lot of them, which I'd think would be more susceptible to tangling. No? I just don't give them a chance to.


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## Junebug D (Aug 18, 2010)

^^ I think coarser strands may be more prone to tangling.  Coarse strands are described as feeling "rough" or wiry, and it tends to stay in the place that you put it as opposed to fine strands that can be "fly away".  It seems like it would make sense that coarse hair strands are more prone to catch on each other and stay that way, no?

But also, if you don't have a lot of hair (thin)... then there isn't as much of it to tangle, thus less time spent detangling.  :scratchch


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## Prettyeyes (Aug 18, 2010)

naijamerican said:


> I understand what you're trying to get at, but the purpose of this thread was not to suggest that other curly/kinky-haired women don't share some commonalities with 4B hair types. The purpose was to try to elucidate why it is that many who have this hair type have a particularly hard time growing it out. The simple fact is that 4B hair is different than even 4A hair and 3c hair. Fundamentally different. The nature of the coils themselves are different. "Different" doesn't imply "better" or "worse;" it's just different. I'm glad that you have seen several little girls with 4B hair that is long. Quite frankly, I have not seen that very often in these parts, and as Mscocoface so eloquently stated, 4B hair is the type of hair that is most quick to receive a relaxer treatment or to assume that a relaxer is required.
> 
> This isn't a "woe-is-me" post and this mentality isn't permeating this thread. We're simply discussing some of the challenges we've had, issues that many in the thread have provided excellent suggestions for.


 
I appreciate your opinion, BUT, I was commenting on the OP's original post(she determined the purpose of the thread) and sharing my feedback on that post and a few other replies that I felt singled 4b out because of the super shrinkage. AND I am well aware of what this thread is about since I have read it in it's entirety and replied a couple times.

I do agree that this is a very informative thread, so people who want to grow 4b hair can have more info about what challenges they will face and can choose to overcome or not but it is a choice! It was not designed to be short!


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## Prettyeyes (Aug 18, 2010)

Foxglove said:


> It's not designed to be short, it just needs more maintenance which not many people are willing to learn


 ITA with THIS


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## NYDiva (Aug 18, 2010)

As a 4b I don't believe that our hair is designed to be short.  It just needs lots of tlc to reach it's full potential.


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## Nonie (Aug 18, 2010)

Junebug D said:


> ^^ I think coarser strands may be more prone to tangling. Coarse strands are described as feeling "rough" or wiry, and it tends to stay in the place that you put it as opposed to fine strands that can be "fly away". It seems like it would make sense that coarse hair strands are more prone to catch on each other and stay that way, no?
> 
> But also, if you don't have a lot of hair (thin)... then there isn't as much of it to tangle, thus less time spent detangling.



Really? I would think the opposite. Have you ever tried smooth out frills that are fine at the end of a scarf? The finer they are, the harder  to separate they are, especially if you wash the scarf while they're not straight and separate. On the other hand, coarser thread fibers separate with so much ease coz they are fat and even your fingers can feel them to pull them apart. But fine fibers... 

Even if we focus on the other point you made: roughness vs softness. I can still bet my bottom dollar that the softer item would be harder to keep from tangling. For a visual, let's compare mohair which is uber fine with sisal:

Mohair:






Sisal:





To me the former would be more of a pain to detangle than the latter. The former is finer and softer while the latter is coarser and harder, but it is precisely these characteristics that make one easier to work with: IMO the latter is easier to work and to keep from tangling than the former.

You can test this by taking pieces of cotton thread and wetting them then rolling them together, and then take satin threads wet them and roll them together and then see which of the two will be easier to open up and separate. I bet it'll be the cotton threads.

So this is why I honestly believe it's not because I have fine strands that I don't need to detangle but rather because I have figured out how to avoid tangles happening in the first place.

BTW, fine and silky do not mean the same thing to me. Hair can be fine without being shiny/slippery which is what I think of when I hear "silky". Fine to me just has to do with diameter.

Page 143 of the book _The Science of Hair_ does agree with me on fine hair being more susceptible to damage and to tangling. Click here and then scroll down to read.

So does this blog: http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2010/06/chemistry-of-your-hair-fine-hair.html

So does this site: http://hair-care.suite101.com/article.cfm/tips_for_tangled_hair

So really, my fine hair is more vulnerable to damage than someone else's coarse hair, yet a KISS regimen has somehow saved me from having to subject my hair to the trauma that would lead to its demise. And that I think is the ticket: doing less to it reduces the likelihood of abusing its delicate nature.


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## GraciousMystique (Aug 19, 2010)

"Is 4b hair meant to be short? Because if we have to do all this work to achieve length then it must be designed for purposes of being naturally short". 

Firstly, Nobody can answer as to weather type 4 hair was designed to be short except the Creator.   

Secondly, my answer to the OP question is "So what if it was? And should it even matter?".If it were designed to be short, does that mean we should let it stay at a shorter length  and not put "unnecessary" work into the growth process. Think about it this way: There are things in life that some people have to work hard to obtain, while to others easily.  

For example, I'm naturally horrible at mathematics and during grade school I would become frustrated as I watched others learn and understand concepts quicker than I ever would.  _Nature_ made me bad at solving numerical problems, but I wasn't going to accpet what nature given me. I put in hours of studies toward mathematics, because I desired a particular outcome that was beneficial I willing to go against nature. 

Maybe comparing mathematics and hair is strange, but there are also plenty of other examples. Cacuasians have less melanin in there skin, so therefore they have to take certain precautions to protect their skin from damaging sun effects if they do not want skin damaging effects or faster aging process. It's called diversity. Everyone is not equal.  


The point is if nature undermined or shorthanded you, but you desire a particular result then there is effort to be put forth if you want to bringforth a desired outcome.  _If you feel there is too much effort to put forth, or you are not willing to put in the work necessary to achieve the desired result, then by all means quit_.

Personally, I like to think of my hair journey as equivalent to my mathematical struggle during grade school. I not naturally gifted blank numbers but I was able to better myself by using these particular techniques. 

I hope upon success of my hair journey I can pass techniques onto other black women who are also having similar problems which can be easily facilitated with a shift in techniques and thinking. So they can know although it may be  _difficult _to achieve, it definitely _can_ learn how to grow long hair, if they want to.

Thirdly, great post OP. This same question has been asked in other hair boards.


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## naturalgyrl5199 (Aug 19, 2010)

Junebug D said:


> ^^ I think coarser strands may be more prone to tangling. Coarse strands are described as feeling "rough" or wiry, and it tends to stay in the place that you put it as opposed to fine strands that can be "fly away". It seems like it would make sense that coarse hair strands are more prone to catch on each other and stay that way, no?
> 
> *But also, if you don't have a lot of hair (thin)...* then there isn't as much of it to tangle, thus less time spent detangling. :scratchch


 
I don't know....I have fine hair but I have a lot of it (covers every square inch of my head) so it (appears) course...but please believe that stuff tangles as the day is long! 

@Bolded...I think this is the issue more than anything....The less hair you have (not length but density for lack of a better term)....then your hair MAY NOT tangle as much...however I have seen some people with thin hair have major tangles...however that may be a Hair CARE issue....


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## Junebug D (Aug 19, 2010)

Nonie said:


> Really? I would think the opposite. Have you ever tried smooth out frills that are fine at the end of a scarf? The finer they are, the harder to separate they are, especially if you wash the scarf while they're not straight and separate. On the other hand, coarser thread fibers separate with so much ease coz they are fat and even your fingers can feel them to pull them apart. But fine fibers...
> 
> Even if we focus on the other point you made: roughness vs softness. I can still bet my bottom dollar that the softer item would be harder to keep from tangling. For a visual, let's compare mohair which is uber fine with sisal:
> 
> ...


 
Great examples, the visuals are extremely helpful.  thank you. 



> @Bolded...I think this is the issue more than anything....The less hair you have (not length but density for lack of a better term)....then your hair MAY NOT tangle as much...however I have seen some people with thin hair have major tangles...however that may be a Hair CARE issue....


I think so too, especially after Nonie's excellent explanation.


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## Kurlee (Aug 19, 2010)

Nonie said:


> BTW, fine and silky do not mean the same thing to me. Hair can be fine without being shiny/slippery which is what I think of when I hear "silky". Fine to me just has to do with diameter.


I think many people confuse coarse with the TEXTURE of someone's hair. If they see 3 type hair, they call it "fine".  If they see type 4 hair it's "coarse". I don't think the understanding of strand size is widely accepted.


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## SND411 (Aug 19, 2010)

Kurlee said:


> I think many people confuse coarse with the TEXTURE of someone's hair. If they see 3 type hair, they call it "fine".  If they see type 4 hair it's "coarse". I don't think the understanding of strand size is widely accepted.



This is so true. And when I said my hair is VERY coarse, I meant that most of my individual strands are as thick as small pencil leads!


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## jennboo (Aug 19, 2010)

I said it once and i'll say it again, 4b hair is designed to appear short and compact. 

So what?


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## nikolite (Aug 19, 2010)

qchelle said:


> I'm liking the responses
> 
> I wonder what our big lips and wide/flat noses are for? hmmm...??? Anybody wanna take a stab at it? I'm curious.....(or I could just google it  )



Great thread!  

I'm kind of late and apologize if someone's already posted this, but a lot of the features we see in groups of people have less to do with what is innate or biological to a race and more to do with natural selection and a concentration of certain genes/features, as there is more variation of people within races than between them.  A lot of this is due to isolation more than anything else, where certain groups did not breed with others for long periods of time and thus their specific shared features became more and more prominent.  

In the case of thick lips, flat noses, 4B hair, or any other features, its also likely that thousands of years ago groups with these features happened to reproduce the fastest, making their particular features stick around for much longer and increasing their numbers, while populations with other features died out or became less prominent.  This would explain why among blacks, our skin and hair varies greatly, from butter pecan to licorice, from 3A to 4B.  

This isn't always due to environmental advantage (ie. people with greater shrinkage survived in areas near the equator because they were protected from the sun while looser-textured people were more likely to die off from the heat of the hair falling over their shoulders)--sometimes its also about aesthetics and what people found to represent fertility/beauty at the time.  Could be that 4B hair was more coveted and thus these individuals had a higher chance of mating and reproduced more at the time.  It could also be about pure chance:  since groups of people were relatively isolated back then (and so were their features for that reason), its possible that a storm could have wiped out the inhabitants of group A who lived in the plains and had looser hair while the inhabitants of group B with 4B hair (living in the hills) survived, and thus were able to reproduce.  Its even more likely a mixture of all three of these things (environmental adaptation, aesthetics, and chance) are what caused one racial group to have 4B hair and another on another continent has 1A hair.  But we should remember that people in Africa also had 3A, 3C, 4A hair and people in Europe also have 2B, 3B, even 4A hair, although there is predominantly 4B in the former and 1A in the latter for unknown reasons. 

In this case, manipulating the hair really isn't that serious or going against "nature" at all.  For all we know, pale skin, short legs, gap teeth, red hair, 4B hair are just random occurences that create diversity.  Still, we have sunblock, ladders, hair dye, shea butter, etc. to change these things as we see fit.  We're humans, not animals, so our advantage is in having the brain power to be able to easily manipulate our enviornments as we need to.


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## nikolite (Aug 19, 2010)

On the same token, one can also say that 1A hair isn't designed to look full/thick and frame the face.  Its just diversity.  

4B hair may need to wear braids/twists more to _show _length, but 1A hair also needs to be rollersetted/blow dried in most cases to _show _fullness/body and "fit in."  I don't think they are going against nature either.


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## Kurlee (Aug 19, 2010)

nikolite said:


> Great thread!
> 
> I'm kind of late and apologize if someone's already posted this, but a lot of the features we see in groups of people have less to do with what is innate or biological to a race and more to do with natural selection and a concentration of certain genes/features, as there is more variation of people within races than between them.  A lot of this is due to isolation more than anything else, where certain groups did not breed with others for long periods of time and thus their specific shared features became more and more prominent.
> 
> ...


*NOW THIS! is a response*


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## Kurlee (Aug 19, 2010)

SND411 said:


> This is so true. And when I said my hair is VERY coarse, I meant that most of my individual strands are as thick as small pencil leads!


i wisssssssssh I had hair that coarse!!! It is soooooooo resistant to damage and has a tendency to behave more than finer hair. Girl, you are blessed


----------



## naijamerican (Aug 19, 2010)

Kurlee said:


> i wisssssssssh I had hair that coarse!!! It is soooooooo resistant to damage and has a tendency to behave more than finer hair. Girl, you are blessed



My hair is very fine, too. I discovered this last year and it was a revelation. I think SND is right: people often conflate the way the hair actually feels with the strand diameter. My hair might feel coarse (only when it's not properly moisturized, though!) but the strands are baby-fine. I don't necessarily wish I had coarse hair but fine strands can definitely pose their own sets of challenges. 

And Nikolite, thanks for what you said. :notworthy Two great posts.


----------



## paragon1day (Aug 19, 2010)

Nonie said:


> I think shrinkage goes back to the need for people living in hot Africa to stay cool around their necks and shoulders...and also the shrinkage provides a canopy-like compact shield from the sun so our brains don't get fried. It's all in the genius of our Maker.




I was gonna post this too!!!! Many ppl don't remember that we are natives of a very hot climate! With that being said, our hair does not need to be naturally oily when we would be out in the elements getting sweaty and all. Our natural oils is what would keep our hair moisturized and such. 

Imagine living in a hot climate with type 1,2, or even 3 hair. You wouldn't have any cuz it'd be so hot you would cut it off and keep it short  People do that now every summer (I was one of them).....

I don't think our hair is meant to be short but I do think it's meant to frame our face so it would be out of our way. That stuff can get pretty hot!!!!


----------



## nikolite (Aug 19, 2010)

Kurlee said:


> *NOW THIS! is a response*



LOL!  Sorry for the long post--you can tell I'm a talker!


----------



## Kurlee (Aug 19, 2010)

nikolite said:


> LOL!  Sorry for the long post--you can tell I'm a talker!


girl, i had no problem with the length. The content was ON POINT


----------



## itsjusthair88 (Aug 19, 2010)

This is so funny, me and my mommy were just talking about this! She's got a degree in Anthropology and she briefly remembers a very afro-centric professor of hers (waaaay back in the day) citing a study of hair by region and evolutionary diagnostics. Something about the shrinkage being evolutions way of hiding our scalp from the hot African sun; as opposed to anglo-sax hair, where the fineness of their strands leave more of their scalps out, in hopes to catch more sun and thus, more vitamin D...I really have to ask her more about it.


----------



## Hairsofab (Aug 19, 2010)

jennboo said:


> I said it once and i'll say it again, 4b hair is designed to appear short and compact.
> 
> So what?


 
lol I still agree too even after reading all these long diatribes about the subject. People think if one says hair is meant to be short it is some sort of attack on 4b hair. Just because hair is meant to be or appear short doesn't mean it can't grow or doesn't grow, or you can't retain with education and effort.


----------



## Nonie (Aug 19, 2010)

Bosinse said:


> lol I still agree too even after reading all these long diatribes about the subject. People think if one says hair is meant to be short it is some sort of attack on 4b hair. Just because hair is meant to be or appear short doesn't mean it can't grow or doesn't grow, or you can't retain with education and effort.



LOL Bosinse, Jennboo is not saying 4B hair is meant/designed to BE short like *you* are saying; she's saying what *I* am saying that 4B hair is meant/designed to APPEAR short. She said it on page 1 and I agreed with her. I still do. I don't agree with the sentiment that 4B hair is meant/designed to BE short, which is what you've been saying and are still saying.


----------



## .NicNac. (Aug 19, 2010)

Nonie said:


> May I introduce you to our beloved Sera. She has type 4B hair that obviously isn't meant to be short:  http://www.youtube.com/sera2544
> 
> ETA: I do not think Western influences are why we grow 4B hair long. If you ever read the book _Hair Story_ you will discover what a glory African hair was, how elaborately it was worn long, and how proud Africans were to show it off, way before white folks intruded on their land. It may also help you understand why it is that slaves were so ashamed of their 4B hair. They had never in all their lives worn it un-groomed and here they were with no combs and no time to tend to it. So they wore scarves or shaved it off, because they were used to having long hair, but not long hair that was unkempt. 4B hair got a bad rap not because it's the worst kind of hair there is, but because it was hair that those who had it were used to wearing it in smart dos, but found themselves w/o tools to do so, and it brought shame to not work it like they were able to back in their homeland.
> 
> If you scroll down the first pages of _Hair Story_ to page 2,  you will see one hairstyle from back in the day: http://www.amazon.com/Hair-Story-Un...=UTF8&qid=1281972818&sr=1-1#reader_0312283229 which isn't short. And there are more images in the book.



How long has she been growing her hair?????


----------



## SheaButterBaby (Aug 19, 2010)

I do understand exactly what you are saying. I think that because some of  our ancestors originally lived in Africa are hair adapted to the climate thus covering our scalps to prevent burns and really curly (appearing short) because it wouldn't make sense to have hair down our backs when it's hot! But the hair itself was long...it just sort of grew 'up' mostly then down the back for some though not all.


----------



## Nonie (Aug 19, 2010)

.NicNac. said:


> How long has she been growing her hair?????



She BC'd to almost nothing in December 2003  and has kindly documented her journey in albums:

OLD ALBUM: http://public.fotki.com/Sera25/natural_pics/
NEW ALBUM: http://public.fotki.com/sera252/all_about_hair/


----------



## Nonie (Aug 19, 2010)

itsjusthair88 said:


> This is so funny, me and my mommy were just talking about this! She's got a degree in Anthropology and she briefly remembers a very afro-centric professor of hers (waaaay back in the day) citing a study of hair by region and evolutionary diagnostics. Something about the shrinkage being evolutions way of hiding our scalp from the hot African sun; as opposed to anglo-sax hair, where the fineness of their strands leave more of their scalps out, in hopes to catch more sun and thus, more vitamin D...I really have to ask her more about it.



You might also enjoy this http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=358323interesting thread that was started last year by *afiya27*: Why is our hair like this?


----------



## Naturel (Aug 19, 2010)

I can't say anything on this subject yet.  Whether 4 type hair can grow and be longer is something I want to experiment with ( with my own hair) and find the theory.  I am giving myself 5 years.


----------



## SND411 (Aug 19, 2010)

I do not believe Africa is anymore hotter than other places where ancient humans developed straighter textures.


----------



## itsjusthair88 (Aug 19, 2010)

Nonie said:


> You might also enjoy this interesting thread that was started last year by *afiya27*: Why is our hair like this?


 
Thank you, I did enjoy it!; I actually got a hold of my mother (she be ducking and dodging her grown children like she owes us rent!) and she said that the study went deeper than that and is actually a published study regarding skin tones (darker skin is a defense mechanism to block out too many uv rays; likewise lighter skin allows for the easier absorbtion of Vitamin D) eye color (once again, darker eyes are meant to act as natural shields against the bare sun), etc. etc.

I tried to get her to remember the name of the sutdy, but she said she was trying to cook and stop bothering her "with this nonsense"...she's a trip.


----------



## nikolite (Aug 19, 2010)

SND411 said:


> I do not believe Africa is anymore hotter than other places where ancient humans developed straighter textures.



True, which is why there are many other factors involved.  Dark skin is an attribute in many places near the equator though.  

Then again, that's probably another discussion about how old the populations in Africa are (and how old their features are) compared to other populations.  Looking at the "Out of Africa" theory, it would make sense that other hot places on earth have people with straighter hair because they are less likely to have originated there but later migrated there and are as we speak continuing to adapt (as adaptation/natural selection takes thousands of years).


----------



## Barbara (Jul 27, 2013)

My stylist felt that way until I started using the Verifen Complex line.  He was surprised at the results.


----------



## PinkSunshine77 (Jul 27, 2013)

alive said:


> I hope this does not offend anyone but I have 4b hair that is slightly past my shoulders and this is a question that has been on my mind lately.
> 
> Left in its natural state,
> 1.	it tangles incredibly easily leading to breakage
> ...




I think it's harder for us to retain length with our hair type.


----------



## Osha (Jul 27, 2013)

No, only if you want it to be short. It is possible to grow it long, with a lot of effort, knowledge, time and patience.


----------



## virtuenow (Jul 27, 2013)

Osha are you a 4b??


----------



## Inspiired (Jul 27, 2013)

I'm Type 4A, B and C. My hair is tailbone length at the moment, girl you can do it!

www.bootyfurl.co.uk


----------



## virtuenow (Jul 27, 2013)

Inspiired said:


> I'm Type 4A, B and C. My hair is tailbone length at the moment, girl you can do it!
> 
> www.bootyfurl.co.uk



Alright Inspiired hows that for evidence?!  (thanks for stopping through)


----------



## growinghealthyhair (Jul 27, 2013)

I feel like its true. I have been natural since 2010 (3 years) and I still have a TWA. Just hate my hair. I do everything to it and keep it stretched/braided. All it does it tangles on itself. Just feel like its a head full of spiderwebs.  I'm thinkin of relaxing maybe it won't tangle and break so much


----------



## virtuenow (Jul 27, 2013)

growinghealthyhair what is your regimen? I will try and help w/tips if you like.  I really think you should start a thread asking for help and tips and I'm sure others will chime in.


----------



## growinghealthyhair (Jul 27, 2013)

virtuenow said:


> growinghealthyhair what is your regimen? I will try and help w/tips if you like.  I really think you should start a thread asking for help and tips and I'm sure others will chime in.



virtuenow

Thanks that's sweet of you. It just makes me so sad. All my friends went natural because of all the knowledge I shared (that I get from you ladies) and there hair is way longer most have been natural only one year.


I moisturizer my hair daily with burdock root heavy cream and a spritz of Greg juice.

Every two weeks I DC with this Cacao Deep Conditioner.

I henna every now and again. Maybe every two months?

And I keep my hair either braided in corn rows or twists. I wear wigs. No combs or anything . They fit so I don't have to sew them either and take them off nightly. And don't wear it at all on the weekend. 

Seems like I've tried everything. My hair just tangles up no matter what. Just makes me sad that I can't wear my own hair out. It's embarrassing and depressing.


----------



## TraciChanel (Jul 27, 2013)

Hi growinghealthyhair.  It also took me awhile to get my hair jump started after I went natural as far as retaining length. For awhile, I was stuck in SL. My length retention got stronger when I began to wet my hair in the shower daily. Specifically, I co-wash daily (and M&S) and it has done wonders for my retention (I'm now BSL/MBL). You wear wigs, so this will be ideal for you at this time - especially in the summer. Try this for about 6 months and see how it will work for you.


----------



## growinghealthyhair (Jul 27, 2013)

TraciChanel said:


> Hi growinghealthyhair.  It also took me awhile to get my hair jump started after I went natural as far as retaining length. For awhile, I was stuck in SL. My length retention got stronger when I began to wet my hair in the shower daily. Specifically, I co-wash daily (and M&S) and it has done wonders for my retention (I'm now BSL/MBL). You wear wigs, so this will be ideal for you at this time - especially in the summer. Try this for about 6 months and see how it will work for you.



TraciChanel

What type are you?

I was actually thinking about cowashing more often or like you are saying wetting my hair daily. My hair wet is so much more manageable.


----------



## TraciChanel (Jul 27, 2013)

I'm a 4b. Until I started wetting it everyday, I used to HATE doing my hair  Now, I look forward to it! It's soooo much more manageable when I wet it daily. Try dc'ing with Queen Helene Super Cholesterol. Makes my hair so nice and manageable.


----------



## growinghealthyhair (Jul 27, 2013)

TraciChanel said:


> I'm a 4b. Until I started wetting it everyday, I used to HATE doing my hair  Now, I look forward to it! It's soooo much more manageable when I wet it daily. Try dc'ing with Queen Helene Super Cholesterol. Makes my hair so nice and manageable.



Thanks so much. How do you wear your hair out when it was short?

I was wondering if wearing my Afro out would be better than wearing wigs (cornrows/twists is how my hair is underneath)...


----------



## TraciChanel (Jul 27, 2013)

growinghealthyhair said:


> Thanks so much. How do you wear your hair out when it was short?
> 
> I was wondering if wearing my Afro out would be better than wearing wigs (cornrows/twists is how my hair is underneath)...



I actually didn't wear my hair out, only because I didn't know how to style it. So I was in weaves pretty much all of the time. I liked that my hair was really thick, but I was wanting the length too. If I knew then what I know now, I would change so much. I definitely would have worn my twa. I think that if you co-wash every day, your hair will grow out whether you wear a wig or if you wear it out. It's your personal choice. Check out mahoganycurls on YT. She had a twa and styled it really nice using the curly girl method. Now, her hair is really long. I will post the video if I can find it quickly.
ETA: here's the video. HTH!
http://youtu.be/_U9uAwXz1CY


----------



## growinghealthyhair (Jul 27, 2013)

TraciChanel


My issue with styling  my own hair is its so uneven every where. It just doesn't look right. My nape up to the top of my ears is less than an inch like I had a short hair cut :-( 

I don't understand how it gets so short. I never see any excessive shedding or breakage. It's just like it won't grow.



[ATTAC]
Nonie help please :-(


----------



## TraciChanel (Jul 27, 2013)

growinghealthyhair said:


> @TraciChanel
> 
> 
> My issue with styling  my own hair is its so uneven every where. It just doesn't look right. My nape up to the top of my ears is less than an inch like I had a short hair cut :-(
> ...



I'm no expert, but I would bet your hair is too dry. Why not trim your ends a bit to keep them healthy and also that way you may feel more comfortable wearing your hair out. Otherwise, just cowash daily, m&s, and hide your hair under your wig until its at a length you feel comfortable wearing. I'm sure some other ladies will chime in here too


----------



## Osha (Jul 28, 2013)

virtuenow said:


> Osha are you a 4b??



No, I'm  a bit ignorant about types. From what I understand, 2 is wavy, 3 is curly and 4 is kinky. Based on that, I'm a 3. I'm guessing maybe a B or C or a bit of both.


----------



## virtuenow (Jul 28, 2013)

growinghealthyhair said:


> @virtuenow
> 
> Thanks that's sweet of you. It just makes me so sad. All my friends went natural because of all the knowledge I shared (that I get from you ladies) and there hair is way longer most have been natural only one year.
> 
> ...



growinghealthyhair I struggled for years w/getting retention.  Here's my hair story, check it out http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=675865.    As far as your hair, if it's not thriving w/those products, then they are not the right products for your hair.  My guess is that your hair doesn't like glycerin.  My hair hates Greg Juice and Qhemets b/c of the glycerin.  It took me years to get on the right track.  One thing that held me back was hiding my hair for too long.  If you click on the link, you'll see I was suffocating my scalp w/wigs...Anyhoo, I believe you have to wear your hair to learn it.  I'm not saying a hair hiatus here or there is wrong, but prolonged hiding is a way to never get used to your hair, how it reacts to everyday wear, etc.    I agree w/getting your hair wet.  The LCO moisture method is really good for keeping the right balance of moisture.  Your Burdock Root butter, by the way, is a sealant-- so using it daily could be blocking out moisture.  Have you tried doing regular protein or reconstructor treatments yet?  They helped turn my hair around.


----------



## DirectorChic (Jul 28, 2013)

All I can say is that 4b hair grows.  What may work for a 3c may not work for 4a, what may work for 4a may not work for 4b. As said earlier, do what works for your hair. Doing what a 3c does will give your regimen the appearance of not working sometimes and therefore 4b seem to be "designed" a certain way. So you have to find what works on 4b hair and keep that regimen.  As it gets longer, you may have to find unique ways to keep it from being damaged from styling and such.


----------



## genesislocks (Jul 28, 2013)

LovingLady said:


> Type 4 hair is as fragile because of the area our ancestors grew up in. Africa is a very hot continent (especially since the equator runs through it). *In order for the Africans to survive the heat their hair can't be too long.*
> Regardless of the type of hair you have, you have to manipulate it is some form in order to properly take care of it.



By that logic, the native people in thailand, aztecs, incans, indonesians (and people of other warm regions) would also have coily type 4 hair. But they do not. 

We are literally the only race on the planet with type 4 texture. I think there is more to our hair than meets the eye. Although what that certain "something" may be, is largely up for debate.

Anyway I don't think our hair is necessarily meant to be short. I think over-styling our hair to reflect societies standards of "professional/neat" hair just makes it more challenging. If we left our hair alone, it can and will grow to major lengths 

One thing I want to note is: from my experience type 4s with DENSE hair tend to achieve incredible lengths more quickly than their lower density counterparts. So...my guess is maybe hair growth is less about texture and more about density. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Adiatasha (Jan 12, 2014)

I love this dialogue


----------



## sparkle25 (Jan 13, 2014)

Junebug D said:


> I think our hair is designed to loc. And locs get long.  Anything contrary to that is fighting against this hair type, IMHO.  If your hair isn't dense and/or thick like Sera's and you're not locked, I think the odds are against you getting to WL.  There are & will always be exceptions though, but that's just my conclusion from my own observations.



Every locked person I know has super long hair. My uncle has had locks for like 3 years and his hair is at bra strap length ( for lack of a better term because he is a male lol). Imagine how long it would be if it was straight.


----------



## Prettymetty (Jan 13, 2014)

4b seems to grow the slowest, break the fastest and tangle the easiest so yes. I think our hair is meant to be short. Thanks to the forums and techniques like banding, blowouts, bkt we are able to achieve lengths that seemed impossible. Heat is the best thing that happened to my 4bc hair other than conditioner.


----------



## Ogoma (Jan 13, 2014)

^^ How do you account for type 4b's with long hair before 'banding, blowouts, bkt'? There have *always* been type 4b's with long hair.


----------



## faithVA (Jan 13, 2014)

Ogoma said:


> ^^ How do you account for type 4b's with long hair before 'banding, blowouts, bkt'? There have *always* been type 4b's with long hair.



What do you think the percentage is? Out of 1000 4Bs, what percentage or how many (IRL) do you think have long hair? I'm just curious.


----------



## Prettymetty (Jan 13, 2014)

Ogoma said:


> ^^ How do you account for type 4b's with long hair before 'banding, blowouts, bkt'? There have *always* been type 4b's with long hair.



Natural 4bs with long hair? There arent very many and those people are the exception, not the rule. I have only seen a few people with hair like mine and its called 4c. The reality is that a lot of 4a ladies claim 4b and it gets confusing. Sera and mzwedi have hair like mine and its long... other than them idk


----------



## abcd09 (Jan 13, 2014)

Ogoma said:


> ^^ How do you account for type 4b's with long hair before 'banding, blowouts, bkt'? There have *always* been type 4b's with long hair.



I think a lot of it has to do with having thicker strands and also longer anagen growth phases.


----------



## faithVA (Jan 13, 2014)

Ogoma, I don't think any of us are saying that there aren't any 4Bs with long hair or that a 4B can't grow long hair. But I don't think it can be disputed that it is uncommon. What do I mean by uncommon? I believe that most people can't name 20 4Bs they know IRL, that have hair longer than APL. If a person can count them then I would say it's not common. If it were common, there would be too many to list. Every thread I've seen on the subject, the people can list maybe 5 and they have to go back over their entire life. 

I have no problem stating that is is uncommon for 4Bs to have long hair. That is just my opinion.


----------



## Ogoma (Jan 13, 2014)

faithVA said:


> What do you think the percentage is? Out of 1000 4Bs, what percentage or how many (IRL) do you think have long hair? I'm just curious.



Are we only looking at the youtube natural hair community? 

My grandmother was a 4b natural with long hair. My hair is 4a/b and I am only BSL, but the plan is to get to WHip. I never met my paternal grandmother, but I have heard it repeated she had really long hair. I don't know what her curl pattern is but we are Nigerian so it wouldn't be a stretch to assume she was 4a/b/c.

I guess I agree with the person that stated it is not the hair type, it is the look we hope to achieve that is different. The styles my grandmother and great grandmother were rocking is not the styles we are necessarily rocking to go to work.

How does anyone know whether the 4B they see on the street has long hair or not?


----------



## faithVA (Jan 13, 2014)

Ogoma said:


> Are we only looking at the youtube natural hair community?
> 
> My grandmother was a 4b natural with long hair. My hair is 4a/b and I am only BSL, but the plan is to get to WHip. I never met my paternal grandmother, but I have heard it repeated she had really long hair. I don't know what her curl pattern is but we are Nigerian so it wouldn't be a stretch to assume she was 4a/b/c.
> 
> ...



I am counting every person I have every seen from my youth until now, so that is about 40 years. I am looking at all of the heads I have seen in the numerous beauty salons. I looking at the heads in the churches, work, etc. Just looking at my entire life.

I still think it is very uncommon. I think people can name a few, but in every day life, it just isn't that many, whether it is 4a, 4b, 4c.


----------



## mzteaze (Jan 13, 2014)

There was an older thread about hair styles of old.  I personally think it's a tad harder for younger ones with 4b hair mainly due to the current techniques and/or peer pressure for chemical services/textures and styling (i.e long luxurious smooth hair). 

 Many of the older hairstyles didn't call for any special hair products or TLC outside regularly washing, styling then leaving it alone until the next time.  Our hair responds to those methods.


----------



## Prettymetty (Jan 13, 2014)

Ogoma said:


> Are we only looking at the youtube natural hair community?
> 
> My grandmother was a 4b natural with long hair. My hair is 4a/b and I am only BSL, but the plan is to get to WHip. I never met my paternal grandmother, but I have heard it repeated she had really long hair. I don't know what her curl pattern is but we are Nigerian so it wouldn't be a stretch to assume she was 4a/b/c.
> 
> ...



What kind of styles did they wear? Were they protective styles? Please share the secrets lol. For some reason our grandmas had really long healthy hair. What on earth were they doing back then?! It may have something to do with their diet and activity level back then. Now the only thing on our body that gets exercise is our texting thumb


----------



## natural2008 (Jan 13, 2014)

^^^^They used hair grease and water girl yelp


----------



## Ogoma (Jan 13, 2014)

faithVA said:


> I am counting every person I have every seen from my youth until now, so that is about 40 years. I am looking at all of the heads I have seen in the numerous beauty salons. I looking at the heads in the churches, work, etc. Just looking at my entire life.
> 
> I still think it is very uncommon. I think people can name a few, but in every day life, it just isn't that many, whether it is 4a, 4b, 4c.



But, is that because 4b is meant to be short or because a lot of women were/are not natural, do not know how to manage or maintain relaxed or natural hair, and keep trying to style their hair in a way that is not compatible with their hair texture. The men in my family have better hair than the women .



Prettymetty said:


> What kind of styles did they wear? Were they protective styles? Please share the secrets lol. For some reason our grandmas had really long healthy hair. What on earth were they doing back then?! It may have something to do with their diet and activity level back then. Now the only thing on our body that gets exercise is our texting thumb



 Mainly braided styles that a lot of people do not appreciate now or would not consider professional. We are in a different environment.


----------



## faithVA (Jan 13, 2014)

Ogoma said:


> But, is that because 4b is meant to be short or because a lot of women were/are not natural, do not know how to manage or maintain relaxed or natural hair, and keep trying to style their hair in a way that is not compatible with their hair texture. The men in my family have better hair than the women .
> 
> 
> 
> Mainly braided styles that a lot of people do not appreciate now or would not consider professional. We are in a different environment.



I don't know whether it is meant to be short or not. That was someone else's phrasing. That is why I said it isn't common for it to be long. 

Someone else above did mention locs.


----------



## AmiJay (Jan 13, 2014)

I don't know if it's meant to be short, but I do think that it grows best if it is left alone.


----------



## coolsista-paris (Jan 13, 2014)

Ogoma said:


> ^^ How do you account for type 4b's with long hair before 'banding, blowouts, bkt'? There have always been type 4b's with long hair.



my aunt always had long hair ( i did too in the past as a kid). we had in commin: hair was always in braids ( without extensions).

i have 3 aunts with 4b that passes bsl , longesr is wl.
one is relaxed, one is natural and one with a jerry curl ( is that the name)? curly.


----------



## Mane Event (Jan 13, 2014)

abcd09 said:


> I think a lot of it has to do with having thicker strands and also longer anagen growth phases.



This! All of the 4bs I know with long hair have SUPER thick strands that survive can manipulation better than most


----------



## Mane Event (Jan 13, 2014)

^^also agree with the growth phase. I dont think ive met a long-haired 4b without long, thick hair everywhere....eyelashes, eyebrows, etc

Its almost like you can look at someone's face and conclude he/she can grow/maintain longer hair. 

I may be reaching but just my observations!


----------



## RegaLady (Jan 13, 2014)

faithVA said:


> @Ogoma, I don't think any of us are saying that there aren't any 4Bs with long hair or that a 4B can't grow long hair. But I don't think it can be disputed that it is uncommon. What do I mean by uncommon? I believe that most people can't name 20 4Bs they know IRL, that have hair longer than APL. If a person can count them then I would say it's not common. If it were common, there would be too many to list. Every thread I've seen on the subject, the people can list maybe 5 and they have to go back over their entire life.
> 
> I have no problem stating that is is uncommon for 4Bs to have long hair. That is just my opinion.


 

I agree!

Not to mention the ones who have grown their hair past APL, tried really hard to get it that long (PSing, cowashing, sealing, moisturizing, etc) and it took really long (2 years +)

I do think shrinkage does play mind tricks on us, particularly in regards to 4b hair. So while a head of hair make look neck or SL length, stretched it may be bsl or wl.


----------



## Khaiya (Jan 14, 2014)

For my 4b hair I'm learning that most combs are not designed with it in mind. Even afro piks are often too small for my hair (need to find one of the wiiiide ones) I've been too focused on getting every knot out my hair and I'm realizing now I don't need to. So what if the comb doesn't glide thru from root to tip? My new goal is just to keep my hair from locking and matting and we've been getting on smashingly since then. All this to say its just about finding what's best for our hair type and not trying to make it act like 3a/b hair.


----------



## coolsista-paris (Jan 14, 2014)

Mane Event said:


> This! All of the 4bs I know with long hair have SUPER thick strands that survive can manipulation better than most


  my aunt has fine strands and is wl (natural)  another aunt is relaxed and always had mbl hair

it could happen to us too ( crossing fingers)


----------



## NowIAmNappy (Jan 14, 2014)

Mane Event said:


> This! All of the 4bs I know with long hair have SUPER thick strands that survive can manipulation better than most





Mane Event said:


> ^^also agree with the growth phase. I dont think ive met a long-haired 4b without long, thick hair everywhere....eyelashes, eyebrows, etc
> 
> Its almost like you can look at someone's face and conclude he/she can grow/maintain longer hair.
> 
> I may be reaching but just my observations!



I am a 4b and have fine to medium strands. I am less than an inch from WL and I dont have thick hair everywhere such as my eyelashes, eyebrows. I will say fine hair does require a lot more babying/protective styles than other hair types but it can be done.


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## koolkittychick (Jan 14, 2014)

The answer to the OP's question has two aspects, depending on which way you interpret the question. *

Biologically speaking,* yes, type 4 hair was designed to grow and break off at a typically shorter length, based on its chemical structure and growth rate. That is because most peoples who had type 4 hair lived in the hot, harsh climate of sub-Saharan Africa at the time we developed into the different races, and it was Nature's way of keeping our most vulnerable body part (our brains) protected against the insulating effects of a straighter, more fur-like hair texture. That is also why the further north you get, the straighter (and more fur-like) human hair becomes. Ever notice how cool your head felt if you ever rocked a TWA, even in summer? It's because our hair grows up and away from our scalp, not down, allowing for air to circulate through to our scalp when our hair is short, keeping it cool. 

Now, if you're thinking in terms of "it is destined to be short, so why try to grow it long," then no, type 4 hair can grow as long as our bodies allow it to. As humans, we have learned to manipulate our environment to suit our whims, and that includes the functioning of our bodies. We have learned techniques that can help us work with our hair to make it look its best and grow it as long as we want, but *what keeps messing us up is that we are still trying to use techniques/standards/products meant for types of hair other than our own.* 

No matter what we do (and I relax my hair mind you), we do not have type 1, 2, or 3 hair (most of us, anyway), and *using methods that work for those types of hair will not work for us, nor make our hair look like those types of hair without destroying its health and integrity.* Our grandmothers knew this (they were told this rather consistently, albeit in very harsh ways), so they were not abusing their hair in all the various ways that we do to make it look like what it's *not* (i.e., straight). They kept it up and out of the way, to grow however it did, usually long from the pictures I've seen.

It wasn't until we started pressing, then konking, then relaxing, then greasing and gelling our edges, then weaving the hell out of our hair to make it look like other races' hair did it start to get shorter and shorter. And now that the natural hair movement has taken hold and given us back more of the knowledge and understanding we once had of our hair, the pendulum has begun to swing back to where some of us are realizing our hair's full potential, regardless of the way we choose to style it. I relax my hair, but I know now that relaxing it does not mean I can treat it like natural type 1, 2 or even 3 hair--*it is still and always will be type 4 hair, and once I learned how to properly care for my lovely, kinky hair, it has rewarded me with the length I have desired.*  Does it mean I have to take more time with it? Yes! Does it mean I have to baby it more than other types of hair (especially since I damage it with relaxer)? You bet! Does it mean I can't wear it down every day and manipulate the hell out of it with combs, cuts and color like my straighter-haired friends? Most definitely! But I wouldn't trade it for the world, because it is healthy, it is unique, it is beautiful, and it is all mine.


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## Ogoma (Jan 14, 2014)

koolkittychick

I like your analysis. I have read the anthropological explanation of our hair before and it definitely makes sense. I just wonder why middle easterners do not have a similar hair type. I have met Saudi's with kinky hair, but I don't know if these particular ones have some sub-Saharan admixture or it is a result of adapting to their environment.


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## Mane Event (Jan 14, 2014)

NowIAmNappy said:


> I am a 4b and have fine to medium strands. I am less than an inch from WL and I dont have thick hair everywhere such as my eyelashes, eyebrows. I will say fine hair does require a lot more babying/protective styles than other hair types but it can be done.



You all give me hope! Im 4a with fine but dense hair! There is life. 

What has worked for you?


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## koolkittychick (Jan 14, 2014)

Ogoma said:


> @koolkittychick
> 
> I like your analysis. I have read the anthropological explanation of our hair before and it definitely makes sense. I just wonder why middle easterners do not have a similar hair type. I have met Saudi's with kinky hair, but I don't know if these particular ones have some sub-Saharan admixture or it is a result of adapting to their environment.



My guess would be as a result of their environment as well. The Middle East is subject to weather occurrences such as powerful sandstorms which do not occur in sub-Saharan Africa. From the footage I have seen online, they can be just as bad and destructive as a blizzard. They are also weather phenomenon where having a more insulating and protective type of hair such as 1, 2, or looser types of 3 would be much more advantageous to protecting your head from whipping sand than having type 4. At least that is my theory.


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## PinkSunshine77 (Jan 14, 2014)

I don't think so, but it sure feels like it.


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## Ari8 (Jan 14, 2014)

Ogoma said:


> @koolkittychick
> 
> I like your analysis. I have read the anthropological explanation of our hair before and it definitely makes sense. I just wonder why middle easterners do not have a similar hair type. I have met Saudi's with kinky hair, but I don't know if these particular ones have some sub-Saharan admixture or it is a result of adapting to their environment.


 
@Ogoma
I've always heard that our hair evolved as we were transitioning from 'ape-like' hominids to anatomically modern humans. IOW, as we began losing fur, exposing pink skin, 4b hair evolved to protect pre-humans during that transitional stage. Sort of like a compensatory measure. 
My guess is that, once fully modern human, that selective advantage of our hair type was lost *in Africa* *itself* - I say this because I've met some Somalis (who, by and large, are pure African), with very loose/type 2 hair. Since non-Africans are believed to be descended from groups that left East Africa (Ethiopia, Tanzania, etc.) it's not far-fetched to assume that the Africans that left to populate the rest of the globe already had a looser hair type.

For all my rambling, what I'm saying is that I think non-kinkier hair types developed amongst humans *while in Africa* because 4b hair's "protective" advantage was not needed anymore. ETA: I'm not sure other groups (e.g. Middle Easterners) outright evolved straight hair from kinky hair... the first humans that arrived in that region from Africa may have already a looser hair type to begin with.


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## SunRai Naturals (Jan 14, 2014)

I did a search the other day online for tailbone and classic lengths 4b and 4c heads of hair and I didn't find anything. With the exception of the same few names, it seems like it is rare. Even when searching waist length and hip length, more options come up but it is still a tiny number compared to looser hair types. In real life, I may see a child every once in a while with those lengths but never adults. I don't think it's rare by design, I just think that a good number of us equate 4b/4c with being "tough" when our strands are actually fine and that's why regular manipulation doesn't work well for us.


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## jennwantslonghurr (Jan 15, 2014)

Ari8 said:


> @Ogoma
> I've always heard that our hair evolved as we were transitioning from 'ape-like' hominids to anatomically modern humans. IOW, as we began losing fur, exposing pink skin, 4b hair evolved to protect pre-humans during that transitional stage. Sort of like a compensatory measure.
> My guess is that, once fully modern human, that selective advantage of our hair type was lost in Africa itself - I say this because I've met some Somalis (who, by and large, are pure African), with very loose/type 2 hair. Since non-Africans are believed to be descended from groups that left East Africa (Ethiopia, Tanzania, etc.) it's not far-fetched to assume that the Africans that left to populate the rest of the globe already had a looser hair type.
> 
> For all my rambling, what I'm saying is that I think non-kinkier hair types developed amongst humans while in Africa because 4b hair's "protective" advantage was not needed anymore. ETA: I'm not sure other groups (e.g. Middle Easterners) outright evolved straight hair from kinky hair... the first humans that arrived in that region from Africa may have already a looser hair type to begin with.



I have been interested with this topic for a while.  Have you ever seen National geographic video family tree? 
In the video there is this aboriginal fillopino (sp?) tribe that has dark skin and curly/kinky curly hair. The scientist said the climate resembles Africa therfore most of their dna remained intact. They also discuss dna makers but don't explain how they are lost/mutated as the human population branches off. 

Anyway, kinky hair was one of the original traits from Africa but primates do not possess kinky hair.  It could have been a protective shield. Or sometimes I think it's like natural selection. Maybe type 4 hair was considered attractive. Probably moist and fluffy during the ice age weather change.   Also, Zebras' hair resemble kinky hair but lions' manes are straight. That's always baffeled me if it's due to the climate, why don't more species possess the trait. 

I always thought middle Eastern groups lost some of their traits during the Arab/Islamic slave trade (mixing with cacausians and meditarianians) but that's just my thinking.  Sometimes I am way out there with no evidence lol. I am always open to discussion. Love it.


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## NowIAmNappy (Jan 16, 2014)

Mane Event said:


> You all give me hope! Im 4a with fine but dense hair! There is life.
> 
> What has worked for you?



Keeping my hair in protective styles works the best and keeping my products simple, but moisturizing often. No special secrets or formulas, but for me I use my own homemade products such as whipped Shea butter with aloe or glycerine, my homemade spritz with conditioner, oil, water and aloe. For protein which is an absolute must for me I use henna and Aubrey Organics GPB at least once a month. I also try to deep conditioner weekly with Aubrey Organics Camila Rose or my Cholesterol. I don't use heat at all and I'm generally in an updo or twists the majority of the time. I do have days/weeks when I wear my hair out because I feel you have to enjoy your hair in every stage, but I know the longer my hair gets the older the ends are so generally if I wear it out for too long a trim is in store. I try to trim every 3 months as well. I'm currently in yarn braids for about 3 months so that when I take these out I should be WL. HTH


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## Ari8 (Jan 16, 2014)

jennwantslonghurr said:


> I have been interested with this topic for a while. Have you ever seen National geographic video family tree?
> *In the video there is this aboriginal fillopino (sp?) tribe that has dark skin and curly/kinky curly hair.* The scientist said the climate resembles Africa therfore most of their dna remained intact. They also discuss dna makers but don't explain how they are lost/mutated as the human population branches off.
> 
> Anyway, kinky hair was one of the original traits from Africa but primates do not possess kinky hair. It could have been a protective shield. Or sometimes I think it's like natural selection. Maybe type 4 hair was considered attractive. Probably moist and fluffy during the ice age weather change. Also, Zebras' hair resemble kinky hair but lions' manes are straight. That's always baffeled me if it's due to the climate, why don't more species possess the trait.
> ...


 
I think you're referring to the Aeta of the Philippines.  Google the Andamanese - you will be pleasantly surprised.  They're "Black people," sure... and they're also the original settlers of India.  Both the Aeta and the Andamanese are classified as Negritos, a 'racial' group that's believed to have settled southern Asia after humans left Africa.  I believe there are Negritos in Malaysia and Thailand as well.  I read something years back claiming that Negritos may have lived in China as recently as a millennia ago.
As far as genes go, I've heard the exact opposite: Negritos are genetically 'distant' from Africans.  The Andamanese cluster most closely with Indians, for instance, despite their remarkable resemblance to us.


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## jennwantslonghurr (Jan 16, 2014)

Ari8 Thank you. I'm going to do some personal research on the weekends. I find this so interesting. Just me being a nerd haha. 

Also, to address the thread's topic. Imo, I don't think 4b hair is designed to be short. Only hair that's designed to be short is hair with a short anagen growth phase which varies on an individual level.  Maybe 4b hair in general prefers to be stretched or in a protective style more often than not. 

My natural hair is 4b with thick strands including eyebrows long lashes and sideburns. My hair has been long twice- full mbl and bsl as an adult and it has also broken at an alarming rate   I've been natural, relaxed (currently), braided up, weaved up and dyed if that helps.


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## Mane Event (Jan 17, 2014)

I really appreciate your response. 
I've been on this forum since '08, stay in plats (underneath a half wig) 90% of the time, use heat 2x a year, stayed off bandwagons for the past 3 years  and the longest I've ever reached was about an 1" above from bsl.

I think I'm missing moisturizing consistently, as well as protein treatments. I know better, just don't do better b/c my hair is hidden so it's easy to forget about. 




NowIAmNappy said:


> Keeping my hair in protective styles works the best and keeping my products simple, but moisturizing often. No special secrets or formulas, but for me I use my own homemade products such as whipped Shea butter with aloe or glycerine, my homemade spritz with conditioner, oil, water and aloe. For protein which is an absolute must for me I use henna and Aubrey Organics GPB at least once a month. I also try to deep conditioner weekly with Aubrey Organics Camila Rose or my Cholesterol. I don't use heat at all and I'm generally in an updo or twists the majority of the time. I do have days/weeks when I wear my hair out because I feel you have to enjoy your hair in every stage, but I know the longer my hair gets the older the ends are so generally if I wear it out for too long a trim is in store. I try to trim every 3 months as well. I'm currently in yarn braids for about 3 months so that when I take these out I should be WL. HTH


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## NGraceO (Jan 19, 2014)

Cipriana of urban bush babes and her twin sister make me believe it is possible!!

NGraceO


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## virtuenow (Jan 19, 2014)

NGraceO said:


> Cipriana of urban bush babes and her twin sister make me believe it is possible!!
> 
> NGraceO



NGraceO do you know anything else about their hair stats?  I mean, are they fine-haired 4c's?


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## CharlieEcho (Jan 19, 2014)

^^they look like 4a or some kinda 3 type to me. 
In response to this thread id say 4b hair's dryness and it's tendency to a tighter curl causes more stress points which means it's more susceptible  to breakage. So in answer, I do think by design it's not meant to be long because of the purpose of Afro hair is to shield the hair from the sun. 

That's not to say it can't grow long, there's plenty of evidence to say it can but it just needs work.

Sent from my iPhone using LHCF


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## Ogoma (Jan 19, 2014)

They are type 4b/c and her hair is fine. She has a blog.

ETA: http://urbanbushbabes.com/2013/09/c...ining-length-video-photos-of-my-hair-texture/


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## RoundEyedGirl504 (Jan 19, 2014)

NGraceO said:


> Cipriana of urban bush babes and her twin sister make me believe it is possible!!
> 
> NGraceO



I read one of their regimens and it was interesting. I think she keeps her hair in 140 loose twists at all times.


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## NGraceO (Jan 19, 2014)

RoundEyedGirl504 said:


> I read one of their regimens and it was interesting. I think she keeps her hair in 140 loose twists at all times.



She does! Her sister is the opposite and wears her hair loose in braid outs all the time.

NGraceO


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## NGraceO (Jan 19, 2014)

virtuenow said:


> NGraceO do you know anything else about their hair stats?  I mean, are they fine-haired 4c's?





CharlieEcho said:


> ^^they look like 4a or some kinda 3 type to me. In response to this thread id say 4b hair's dryness and it's tendency to a tighter curl causes more stress points which means it's more susceptible  to breakage. So in answer, I do think by design it's not meant to be long because of the purpose of Afro hair is to shield the hair from the sun.  That's not to say it can't grow long, there's plenty of evidence to say it can but it just needs work.  Sent from my iPhone using LHCF




Ladies, see Ogoma's helpful post:



Ogoma said:


> They are type 4b/c and her hair is fine. She has a blog.  ETA: http://urbanbushbabes.com/2013/09/ciprianas-5-simple-steps-in-stretching-hair-with-heat-retaining-length-video-photos-of-my-hair-texture/



NGraceO


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## Froreal3 (Jan 19, 2014)

^^^Yeah, they are definitely not 3 anything. Their hair is extremely dense though and has extreme shrinkage.


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## MileHighDiva (Jan 19, 2014)

http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2014/01/long-4c-natural-hair-case-study-alexisbd.html?m=1

Ladies, JC is doing a series of case studies on long haired type 4 naturals.  I'll try to find the link to where she introduces the series.

http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2014/01/4c-case-studies-introduction.html?m=1
Sent from my Speak & Spell using LHCF


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## Dilettante (Jan 19, 2014)

CharlieEcho said:


> ^^*they look like 4a or some kinda 3 type to me. *
> In response to this thread id say 4b hair's dryness and it's tendency to a tighter curl causes more stress points which means it's more susceptible  to breakage. So in answer, I do think by design it's not meant to be long because of the purpose of Afro hair is to shield the hair from the sun.
> 
> That's not to say it can't grow long, there's plenty of evidence to say it can but it just needs work.
> ...



Sometimes I think people stop recognizing hair as 4b/c once it gets longer, because of the way the added weight pulls on the coils.  And, as far as I've seen, most super long 4b/c ladies wear their hair stretched at all times, so that probably has something to do with it too.  I remember when Naptural85 had short hair and people talked about what beautiful 4b hair she had.  Now that it's longer she gets called 4a all the time, and sometimes even 3c.  So there may be more longhaired type 4bs and 4cs than what immediately comes to mind.


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