# Knowledge of Christ...but Lack of Belief and Relationship



## Poohbear (Aug 3, 2010)

For several years, I've attended church every Sunday and taught children the Bible. However, I have been going through periods of unbelief and diminishing faith. I am confused about what to believe anymore. The more and more I taught, the less and less sense the Bible made to me. It's like I have the knowledge, but slowly lost faith.  I feel like good and bad things happen out of mere coincidence, not because of God's mighty power.

During church services, I have never really felt the spirit or felt like I wanted to jump up and down and clap and sing aloud like a lot of people I see in different churches. Then the pastor or a minister will try to say things in the pulpit like "If you don't get up and praise God, something's wrong with you" and other statements along that line. Am I lacking the Spirit if I'm mainly quiet during service?

But anyway, here are the main questions I have been wondering....

How do you know who you are in Christ?

How do you know you believe in Christ?

How do you know that you have a relationship with God?

How do you know that Christ really died on the cross for the punishment of our sins?

Why is Christ dying on the cross so significant for our lives today? Would we really be dying left and right when we sin against God if Jesus had not died?

It's so easy to say you "must confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord and Savior", but how do you know that you believe in your heart?

It's so easy to say you must have a relationship with God. But how do you have a relationship with God when God is supposedly a spirit? Just praying and reading the Bible and living like Christ as much as possible? 

It's easy to say "all Scripture is God-breathed" or the inspired Word of God, but how do you know that for the fact WITHOUT reading 2 Timothy 3:16?

Why should I accept the statement "Christians will never stop sinning" but yet, people say "not everyone who proclaims to be Christian isn't saved or going to heaven because of how they live"? How are they living that's so different than you who still commit sin?

Why aren't Christians more united? Why are there two sides to every fundamental issue of the Bible? (ie. women preachers, faith vs works for salvation, baptism, trinity, big sins vs little sins, calvinism vs arminianism, sinless perfection vs sinning Christians, and more? Do I have to choose sides?

Can I go to Hell for not tithing 10% of my GROSS income?

Can I go to Hell for not participating in ALL church ministries and not attending a physical church building EVERY Sunday to worship God?

That's all the questions I have for now.


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## Poohbear (Aug 3, 2010)

No takers at these questions? :eyebrows2


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## Sharpened (Aug 3, 2010)

I will answer your questions as best I can soon, but I want to ask you a question for you to ponder: what are you willing to sacrifice to get closer to Him?


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## Poohbear (Aug 3, 2010)

Nymphe said:


> I will answer your questions as best I can soon, but I want to ask you a question for you to ponder: what are you willing to sacrifice to get closer to Him?


 :sweet:

_"What are you willing to sacrifice to get closer to Him?"_

Good question! 

One thing I would sacrifice is even more time for reading the Bible for myself rather than to teach others. I have stopped reading my Bible because of the confusion. I'm thinking about reading the Bible without any commentary and meditating on what the words are saying. I feel like I give a good amount of time in prayer throughout the day (not sure if "talking to myself" would be considered prayer). 

Not worrying about what others think when it comes to certain Christian beliefs. 

Ignoring negative thoughts.

Lastly, I would like to stop sinning. I know alot of Christians are against this idea, but I believe it's possible.

That's my little list. I'm not sure if those are considered sacrifices. I don't really do too much of anything else. I don't really watch much tv or shop. I live a pretty simple life of going to work and spending time with family, my boyfriend, and friends. I do spend a lot of time on the computer...maybe sacrifice the time I spend on the computer as well.


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## luthiengirlie (Aug 3, 2010)

Nymphe said:


> I will answer your questions as best I can soon, but I want to ask you a question for you to ponder: what are you willing to sacrifice to get closer to Him?



That was ON IT!  It takes painful breaking out of mentalities, growing pains. It takes studying. It takes being alone. It takes wrestling with YHwH and yourself! Many are not willing to do that!


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## luthiengirlie (Aug 3, 2010)

PoohBear read the Word absent of any human opinion. We're arrogant and always wanna be right. Let the Holy Spirit lead you. Good place to start. Look up Hebrew.


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## luthiengirlie (Aug 3, 2010)

Oh and another thang. Ask Him Directly these questions. He aint scurred of the hard stuff. I suspect you're not the first to ask. Nor will you be the last. Write a journal for each of these questions.. Pray these questions, Thank Him for the answers. Pray. For the Holy Spirit to rule. Have an open heart. And Proceed!


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## Jynlnd13 (Aug 3, 2010)

Hi, I will try to answer to the best of my knowledge here. Now first let me say, I have been a believer all my life. Yet I still have not read the whole bible. I am working on it though. I want to make sure I am understanding correctly what the bible is saying to me, not what people are trying to tell me.



1) For me it's about the relationship, I believe I am in the body of Christ because I believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. & That we can not go to the Father usless we believe in Jesus.



2) I know I believe in Christ because here was there for me in my hours of need in my darkest hour. But the most powerful for me is when I called upon the Holy Trinity when I couldn't shake these suidical thoughts, and it was really getting to me and as soon as I called for help whatever evil was holding me down and trying to harm me was removed. I literally felt a weight lift. I was able to relax, I was no longer tormented by my thoughts. That to me was enough to know that I could never leave or turn away from God. Plus I know that I am one of his chosen people, to me I think it's pretty great that I was chosen to be saved and loved by the highest power of all. 



3) I think that is different for everyone, I can feel it in my Spirit. I talk to him all the time, I don't know what I personally would do if I didn't have him to talk to about everything.



4) Since I wasn't around back then I can't offer a witness report. But I believe that's true because God said it's true. Also if you notice Jesus is also spoken about in the 3 major religions, so to me I believe Jesus is brought up so often for a reason.



5) It is very import to our lives today, the bible is there to help us. But so is God. Just because times are different, that doesn't mean God is different. I don't really understand the second part of this question, because we are going to dead regardless.



6) It's not as if people have never questioned God, I can't think of who it was in the bible at them moment, but he questioned God as well. He knows we have questions. I'm sure he expects us to have questions and moments of wondering how is the possible, etc. You should maybe fast and talk to God during that time to help him show you,  your relationship. What works for one person, might not work for you. God knows our hearts, so there is no point to lie when you are upset, confused, etc.



7) To me having a relationship with God is like having a relationship with anyone else. Yes he is a spirit, but we can talk to him in many ways. Praying, studying the word, and being Christ like are ways also. Like I said, you need to do what works for you, God will show you what works best your personal relationship with him.



8) I guess walking by faith and not by sight. 



9) No one is perfect, no one could ever be perfect. This is where people start to turn away from God, because other PEOPLE have told them they are not good enough. I no longer worry about what people say, if their is something that needs to be addressed, I know God will put me back in line. Because the same people who think they are " Holy than thou" you don't answer to them, you answer to God. Say thanks and go on your way. If you feel like something they said needs to be addressed you can talk to God about that.



10) This one has been on my mind for sometime now, I don't go to Church anymore. Because the church these days are so watered down and mixed up and messed up. Not saying ALL churches are. I study alone with God, by myself and I feel I have learnt more this way. Personally it's hard to explain my reasoning for this without going into another subject. But There should not even be like 50 or however many denominations. There should only be what the bible says. The church has more rules than God, and that is something to look at when finding a church, do they stick to what the bible says or are they off doing their own things. Dont' choose a side, choose God's word. The bible, alot of things have gotten twisted over the years in Christianity so it might be good to do a little research that way you can make a choice for youself. I think these guy kind knows what he is talking about, you might want to check out what  he has to say www.youtube.com/deathuntolife 



11) No, I thought that was an Old testament law? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Didn't God say to give what can you joyfully? There are bible verses about this. I will have to look them up.



12) No, I believe the actually day of worship is the Sabbath not sunday. But we should worship God everyday anyways. It's about your relationship and if you truly believe. Not if you missed a Sunday School meeting.



I think I got everything? Sorry if any of it is confusing.


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## luthiengirlie (Aug 3, 2010)

MAy I humbly state one more thing?


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## HWAY (Aug 3, 2010)

When I realized I suffered from religious exhaustion (and for me it was time to leave a high control group), I began reading the gospel of John, then I read the other gospels.  It is very important to allow God's word to speak for itself.  After 4 years, I still don't trust commentaries.  
Pray to the Lord and tell him how you feel. I agree with luthiengirl. Allow yourself to be taught by the holy spirit.


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## plainj (Aug 3, 2010)

Poohbear, I agree with the above posters. Get alone in your secret place and worship Him. He is truly a magnificent God. Honestly talk to Him and ask Him to reveal Himself to you. He will. Ask Him for clarity of His Word. He will open your eyes. I had to learn the hard way not to turn to people for answers but only to Him. Immerse yourself in His Word. He will reveal Himself. Sometimes it takes us getting away from everyone and totally and truly seeking Him and crying out to Him. Also, make sure you are open to hearing from Him. A lot of times we don't realize that God is talking to us in the simplest of ways. A lot of things we call coincidences are really God-incidences. I pray that God will fill you with overwhelming peace and an unending joy. I pray that you will see His glory and have a complete understanding of Him. God bless you.


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## luthiengirlie (Aug 3, 2010)

The fact you're saying Poohbear: I'm not getting fulfilled. I aint satisfied. May be very well Adonai pushing you into something Deeper with Him. U have a hunger. And most people are content with baby food. YOU however are  not. AND that is rare. And you are called!


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## LovingLady (Aug 3, 2010)

I have been waiting for you to post something like this. My answers are in brown. 



Poohbear said:


> For several years, I've attended church every  Sunday and taught children the Bible. However, I have been going through  periods of unbelief and diminishing faith. I am confused about what to  believe anymore. The more and more I taught, the less and less sense the  Bible made to me. It's like I have the knowledge, but slowly lost  faith.  I feel like good and bad things happen out of mere coincidence,  not because of God's mighty power.
> 
> During church services, I have never really felt the spirit or felt like  I wanted to jump up and down and clap and sing aloud like a lot of  people I see in different churches. Then the pastor or a minister will  try to say things in the pulpit like "If you don't get up and praise  God, something's wrong with you" and other statements along that line.  Am I lacking the Spirit if I'm mainly quiet during service?
> 
> ...



The questions that I didn't answer are questions that you would just know, you can feel that it is true, everything makes sense and it just clicks. Whatever questions you many have go to God with them. I do it all the time and the answers I receive are amazing.  



Nymphe said:


> I will answer your questions as best I can soon, but I want to ask you a question for you to ponder: *what are you willing to sacrifice to get closer to Him?*



I want to you think about this question a lot harder. Think I know where Nymphe is going with this and Luthiegirlie scratched the surface of it. 


I hope you don't take offense to this, I am telling you this because it will help you. I know you want to be able to get to a point where you are no longer sinning but you have to realize that is it not possible. Since the fall in The Garden up until the birth of Christ, humans had the opportunity to be perfect, sinless, and we couldn't do it. God realized that His people will not be able to rejoin Him in heaven so He sent Jesus down to save us (that is why he is called our savior). Once you understand this concept and understand that we all fall short to the glory of God, it will help you to understand what it means to be a Christian.
 

You will also start to see why people dance in the aisle so much.


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## Poohbear (Aug 4, 2010)

luthiengirlie said:


> That was ON IT! It takes painful breaking out of mentalities, growing pains. It takes studying. It takes being alone. It takes wrestling with YHwH and yourself! Many are not willing to do that!


 Yes, it is painful breaking out of mentalities that have been taught and embedded over the years.  Even mentalities that I reject can be a pain and troublesome at times.



luthiengirlie said:


> PoohBear read the Word absent of any human opinion. We're arrogant and always wanna be right. Let the Holy Spirit lead you. Good place to start. Look up Hebrew.


I agree. That's what I am going to try to do for the next several months...read the Bible without human opinion, interpretations, or commentaries.  I want to be able to actually have the Holy Spirit lead me. By the way, what do you mean by "Look up Hebrew"? The book of Hebrew in the Bible? Or the Hebrew language of the Bible? 



luthiengirlie said:


> Oh and another thang. Ask Him Directly these questions. He aint scurred of the hard stuff. I suspect you're not the first to ask. Nor will you be the last. Write a journal for each of these questions.. Pray these questions, Thank Him for the answers. Pray. For the Holy Spirit to rule. Have an open heart. And Proceed!


I have tried giving him my questions, but I sometimes think God gets frustrated with me just like how y'all get frustrated with me on here with my questions.  Especially my questions about sin. Maybe I need to make a journal. 


luthiengirlie said:


> MAy I humbly state one more thing?


Sure. You are welcome to state as much as you want in this thread. I need all the help possible.



luthiengirlie said:


> The fact you're saying Poohbear: I'm not getting fulfilled. I aint satisfied. May be very well Adonai pushing you into something Deeper with Him. U have a hunger. And most people are content with baby food. YOU however are not. AND that is rare. And you are called!


That's exactly how I feel too: "I'm not getting fulfilled. I'm not satisfied." It definitely does feel like a hunger and thirst for understanding. I hate this feeling of wanting to give up and not believe anymore. It's scary.


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## Poohbear (Aug 4, 2010)

HWAY said:


> When I realized I suffered from religious exhaustion (and for me it was time to leave a high control group), I began reading the gospel of John, then I read the other gospels. It is very important to allow God's word to speak for itself. After 4 years, I still don't trust commentaries.
> Pray to the Lord and tell him how you feel. I agree with luthiengirl. Allow yourself to be taught by the holy spirit.


I am suffering from that too... religious exhaustion... Many people view Christianity as attending church, performing rituals, and not committing certain sins (you know how people distinguish 'big sins' from 'little' sins). This is what I got caught up in. I know that is not Christianity. It's about a personal relationship with Christ. That's what I want to get back to, or at least strengthen.  I do pray alot but as I got older I started to feel like praying was useless.  And I started reading my Bible (like actually sitting down during quiet non-distracted time) less and less. I started to find myself just using the Bible to point out verses to people and to use it for teaching other people, but not for myself necessarily.  Even though I'm a relatively good person or have this presumed goodness about myself, I feel bad for any sin I may commit and things that my dad would considered sinful that I don't necessarily think are sinful (things that he says are sinful - like not participating in all the church ministries - but are clearly not in the Bible).



plainj said:


> Poohbear, I agree with the above posters. Get alone in your secret place and worship Him. He is truly a magnificent God. Honestly talk to Him and ask Him to reveal Himself to you. He will. Ask Him for clarity of His Word. He will open your eyes. I had to learn the hard way not to turn to people for answers but only to Him. Immerse yourself in His Word. He will reveal Himself. Sometimes it takes us getting away from everyone and totally and truly seeking Him and crying out to Him. Also, make sure you are open to hearing from Him. A lot of times we don't realize that God is talking to us in the simplest of ways. A lot of things we call coincidences are really God-incidences. I pray that God will fill you with overwhelming peace and an unending joy. I pray that you will see His glory and have a complete understanding of Him. God bless you.


 This is what I plan on doing, getting some alone time after work. I have found that turning to people has caused a lot of confusion. So many different views. It's ridiculous. There are some people I have come across with similar views as me, but I'm really not looking for someone to be in agreement with. I'm just want to know what God is truly saying to me through his Word and communication with me.  I think God is speaking to me in the most simplest way but I must be failing to hear. Thank you for your prayers.


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## luthiengirlie (Aug 4, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Yes, it is painful breaking out of mentalities that have been taught and embedded over the years.  Even mentalities that I reject can be a pain and troublesome at times.
> 
> 
> I agree. That's what I am going to try to do for the next several months...read the Bible without human opinion, interpretations, or commentaries.  I want to be able to actually have the Holy Spirit lead me. By the way, what do you mean by "Look up Hebrew"? The book of Hebrew in the Bible? Or the Hebrew language of the Bible?
> ...



*Don't give up. This is what the enemy wants. You are at a crossroads. You must decide. Hebrew,aramic,greek. Look up and learn and research oringinal languages*


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## Guitarhero (Aug 4, 2010)

I can recommend reading about the lives and thoughts of 4 magnificent saints who have struggled with such in various aspects:

Padre Pio
Sr. Faustina
**St. John of the Cross
**St. Terese de Avila
St. Edith Stein

I'm about to get on these myself.  Sometimes, we find our answer in the memoirs of another who recorded their anguish.  And, no, you don't have to be catholic.  I just don't know of any other ones to recommend.  But these are excellent based upon the lives of truly intelligent and educated believers.  You tend toward deep thought.  There might be some of these books online through Google or other sources.  Hope this helps.


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## Poohbear (Aug 4, 2010)

Abdijz said:


> I have been waiting for you to post something like this. My answers are in brown.
> 
> _Everyone is not going to praise the Lord the same way. We were created differently so you are going to do things differently such as praising God. I have come to realize that when some people get to a certain level with God, they start to pass judgment on others (not intentionally). When they say things like this: "If you don't get up and praise God, something's wrong with you", it is one of those moments. They know first hand how AMAZING God is and whenever they see people sitting down and not giving God the praise they are thinking "how selfish, He is worthy to be praised" and things along that line. Try not to blame them, they just want you to give credit where credit is much due._
> 
> ...


 
I agree that people are not going to praise the Lord the same way. It still bothers me when people in the pulpit still advise you to stand up even when you don’t feel like it.  It’s not a devil or evil spirit keeping me down, it’s just that I don’t feel all the excitement like everyone else at that moment. Plus, I don’t want to get caught up in just doing things just because everyone else is nor feeling force to praise Him.

Christ dying on the cross to pay the price for our sins is something that’s taught over and over. It is taught so much that it sometimes becomes meaningless to me. I know that’s not a good thought to have, but that’s how I’ve been feeling. But I’m wondering can someone’s death really pay for the punishment for our sins? How did Jesus’ death pay for our sins? Is it simply a matter of believing what it says in the Bible?

And why are sins being viewed as mistakes and habits so much now?

In that question about how to have a relationship with God, I was referring to God who is a spirit (and also the Holy Spirit). I have been taught that God is the Father, the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit.  But anyway, so just praying, learning, and obeying His Word is basically all we need to do for a relationship with Him? If that’s the case, I guess I do have a relationship with God, I just have to believe it’s real.

So sin is just something I have to accept as a Christian too, right? So as long as I feel bad about the sin I commit, I shouldn’t worry about not being right with God? When I read the Bible, God speaks very strongly against sin and doesn't take it lightly at all. Is it that I'm reading certain verses about sin out of context of the scripture?


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## Guitarhero (Aug 4, 2010)

Poohbear, I'm excited....it's online, free to read in pdf form!!!  His writings were recommended to me ages ago and I'm just now getting around to them.  C.S. Lewis is great as well.  

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/john_cross?show=worksBy


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## Poohbear (Aug 4, 2010)

Jynlnd13 said:


> Hi, I will try to answer to the best of my knowledge here. Now first let me say, I have been a believer all my life. Yet I still have not read the whole bible. I am working on it though. I want to make sure I am understanding correctly what the bible is saying to me, not what people are trying to tell me.
> 
> 1) For me it's about the relationship, I believe I am in the body of Christ because I believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. & That we can not go to the Father usless we believe in Jesus.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you for your response. It was not confusing. 

I agree with what you have said about how churches are today. It's not like the Church that the bible speaks of. The church today is about getting as many people on the membership role and attending a building for 1-2 hours a Sunday as a way to somewhat make yourself right with God at the beginning of the week.  It's almost like they could care less about you having a relationship with God. They just want you to believe what they want you to believe and do what the pastor tells you to do.

I checked out that deathuntolife guy on youtube, and found him to be a bit "off-putting", not sure the word for it.

However, I saw this other guy http://www.youtube.com/SteveMcVey on youtube that seemed to be someone I found myself agreeing with. He has this series of 101 Lies Taught In Church Every Week that he did about 2 years ago, but I really need to dive into the Bible myself.


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## Poohbear (Aug 4, 2010)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> I can recommend reading about the lives and thoughts of 4 magnificent saints who have struggled with such in various aspects:
> 
> Padre Pio
> Sr. Faustina
> ...


I never heard of these Saints... who are they and what significance do they have with a relationship with Christ? Did they struggle with similar questions I am currently having? I will check them out in my free time.


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## sidney (Aug 4, 2010)

Hi Poohbear, based on what you have said here, it seems like you may not have received genuine conversion (salvation).   Understanding of his word, faith/belief in his word, the presence of the holy spirit,  and turning away from sin are true marks of conversion, and it seems like you struggle in all of these areas.  Is it possible for people to spend years in the church and not be converted, YES absolutely!  You know the word inside in out, you have knowlege but no understanding.  Here is a testimony below of a pastor's wife who served in ministry 12 years before she realized she wasn't truly converted.  Her testimony is here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAxeDX-GYHw.   





Poohbear said:


> For several years, I've attended church every Sunday and taught children the Bible. However, I have been going through periods of unbelief and diminishing faith. I am confused about what to believe anymore. The more and more I taught, the less and less sense the Bible made to me. It's like I have the knowledge, but slowly lost faith. I feel like good and bad things happen out of mere coincidence, not because of God's mighty power.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Poohbear I won't be able to go back and forth answering questions but I think that everything I know is here.  I suggest you get connected to some believers and tell them about your doubts and they will be able to help you if you desire.


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## sidney (Aug 4, 2010)

Christians are not free from sin overnight.   When you get saved, all of your sin isn't zapped away but your heart is converted.  It's like you start off as a block, and God continues to carve away the sin.  So that eventually you reach perfection.  But in order to do that you must read his word, you must do the word, etc etc.  So when God says, "Go and sin no more"....he means it.  When he says "Be ye perfect", he means it.  But he knows it doesn't happen all at once.  The point of christianity is to convert you(the block) into  the image of Christ.  So it takes time to get you to that point.  If you read John 15, God talks about pruning his vines (christians) until they bare more fruit.  It's the same idea as the block.  Oh another anology found in the bible is God as the potter, and we are clay (Jeremaih/Isaiah).  Notice with both these analogies it takes time to work out the character.


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## Poohbear (Aug 4, 2010)

Beautiful post, sidney! 



sidney said:


> Hi Poohbear, based on what you have said here, it seems like *you may not have received genuine conversion (salvation)*. Understanding of his word, faith/belief in his word, the presence of the holy spirit, and turning away from sin are true marks of conversion, and it seems like you struggle in all of these areas. Is it possible for people to spend years in the church and not be converted, YES absolutely! You know the word inside in out, you have knowlege but no understanding. Here is a testimony below of a pastor's wife who served in ministry 12 years before she realized she wasn't truly converted. Her testimony is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAxeDX-GYHw.


I think so too at the bolded. I will check out her testimony after I get off work.



sidney said:


> How do you know who you are in Christ?
> 
> The only way to know, is that you have the fruit of the spirit. The only reassurance of true conversion is holiness. If the spirit isn't constantly correcting you and perfecting holiness within you then I would have concerns about salvation.




I feel like I have the fruits of the spirit... but just lack the understanding of my belief in Jesus. Is there a way to have the fruits of the spirit without being truly converted yet?



sidney said:


> Why should I accept the statement "Christians will never stop sinning" but yet, people say "not everyone who proclaims to be Christian isn't saved or going to heaven because of how they live"? How are they living that's so different than you who still commit sin?
> 
> God says "be ye holy" and "be ye perfect" with the full knowledge that people will still fall occasionally. It is the striving for perfection that counts. Those who are not converted are happy in their sin, they don't want to give it up.


Well I definitely do not feel happy when I sin, so maybe that's all that matters, what's in my heart, as long as I'm striving for perfection. Maybe I am thinking and worrying too much.

Thanks again for your post.


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## Guitarhero (Aug 4, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> I never heard of these Saints... who are they and *what significance do they have with a relationship with Christ?* Did they struggle with similar questions I am currently having? I will check them out in my free time.




Um, , they are christians???  Like the Einstein's to science, like Graf to a diamond and like Giovanni to poetry, these are some of the biggest theologians, doctors of the church, brilliant thought-provoking saints who simply looked inwardly and revealed these struggles that so many face.   Theology programs require reading their works.  You might also like St. Therese de Lisieux "the Little Flower."  She recorded her thoughts on the simplicity of life and the profound discovery of Jesus in every single little thing...in simple little acts for others, works, mundane life...she found the strength of Jesus in those...rather, the strongest faith and connection to God in the most mundane, simplest aspects of life.

From that site:



Ascent of Mount Carmel 
*Description*:      One of St. John of the Cross' most important and insightful works, _Ascent of      Mount Carmel_ is a brilliant work of Christian mysticism. Considered one of the      great Spanish poets, St. John depicts the soul's ascent to Mount      Carmel--allegorically, the place of God--and the "dark night" that      the soul must endure to reach it. St. John describes the different mystic      experiences the soul encounters on its way to union with God through the dark      night. Although St. John continues to describe the dark night in _Dark Night of      the Soul_, the sequel to _Ascent of Mount Carmel_, this book provides a hauntingly      beautiful, profound, and mystical account of Christian spirituality. It is      highly recommended.     

Tim Perrine
CCEL Staff Writer     

It also now comes with a beneficial introduction to  _Ascent of Mount Carmel_, an      outline of St. John's life, and an introduction to St. John's works.
Dark Night of the Soul 
*Description*:      A sequel and continuation of _Ascent of Mount Carmel_, the _Dark Night of the Soul_     is a spiritually moving and mystical book. In it, St. John of the Cross      continues his description of the soul's journey--the "dark night"--to      the "divine union of the love of God." A poet at heart, St. John describes the      journey and the union with beautifully rich and deeply symbolic language.      However, St. John does not simply describe the journey; he seems at times to be      offering encouragement and comfort directly to readers as they too struggle      with the excruciating dark night.  Offering hope to the downtrodden and      discouraged, the _Dark Night of the Soul_ is one of the most difficult books a      person can read, but its difficulty is surpassed by its reward. One of the most      profound works of Christian mysticism, this book is highly recommended for      those seeking union with God.


The last book is calling my soul and I'm going to read it soon.  Maybe this was impetus and reminder for me lol.    I'm very glad you asked the question.


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## sidney (Aug 4, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Beautiful post, sidney!
> 
> 
> I think so too at the bolded. I will check out her testimony after I get off work.
> ...


 
Poohbear, I think this is an important topic and i think it's great that you are examining your beliefs and disbeliefs.  Some people feel they have assurance that they are saved and don't give it a second thought, but you are taking the time to examine yourself and that is a wise thing.  The wife that I told you about, her husband*, Paul Washer* preaches mainly about how how you know if you have true salvation.  I don't believe in his beliefs about Calvinism but he has some great sermons on assurance of salvation. 

Anyway, here is a messgae someone posted about salvation.

--------------------------
How do you know you are saved?
Well first of all, you should be displaying (or starting to display) the fruit of the spirit which is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control (Galatians 5:22-23)
If you are continually displaying immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness and carousing, then this is a good indication that you are not saved and as it says in Galatians 5:21, those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God
The books of 1 and 2 John also give you a list of things to look out for *‘so that you may know that you have eternal life.’* (1 John 5:13)

You will not walk in darkness. If you do, then you do not practice or live by the truth (1 John 1:6)
You will have fellowship with other christians (1 John 1:7)
You recognise your sinful nature (1 John 1:8,10)
You confess your sins (1 John 1:9)
You obey and keep his commandments (1 John 2:3,5 ,1 John 3:24, 1 John 5:2)
You will not hate your brother or sister but love them (1 John 2:9,11 , 1 John 3:10 and 1 John 4:7-8,12-13, 20-21, 2 John 1:5)
You will not love the world or the things of the world (1 John 2:15)
You will do the will of God (1 John 2:17)
You believe the divinity of Jesus Christ and that he has come in the flesh (1 John 2:22 and 1 John 4:2-4,15, 2 John 1:7)
Biblical truth will be abiding in you (1 John 2:24)
You understand the righteousnes of Christ (1 John 2:29)
You will be practicing righteousness (1 John 2:29)
You will not habitually practice sin (1 John 3:8,9, 1 John 5:18 )
You will have compassion for those in need (1 John 3:17)
You believe that Jesus is the Christ and is the Son of God (1 John 5:1)
You abide in the doctrine of Christ (2 John 1:9)
Now am I saying that if you are missing any of these then you are not saved? Of course not. It is not about perfection but about direction. You should be moving in the direction of doing the things above. This is called progressive sanctification where God is doing an inward work in you.
Other questions to ask yourself are:

Am I growing in holiness?
What is my relationship with sin?
Do I have a struggle with sin or do I justify it? (Read Romans 7:7-25)
Do I hate it more and more or do I try and justify it?
Do I have a love for Gods word, the bible?
Do I hunger and thirst for righteousness?
Do I embrace biblical correction from someone else?
Do I have a concern for the lost?
If the answer to the majority of these questions is no, then I would seriously doubt your salvation and I would urge you to repent of your sins and put your trust in Jesus Christ and in him alone. For more information click here. If you are a new christian and struggling in your daily walk, click here.
---------------------------
Poohbear If you want to check out Paul Washer's sermons, go to sermonaudio.com.  There are a ton.  This is a great topic and something we all should do!  Take care Pooh!  Praying for you, I hope you find the answers  you are looking for.


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## Guitarhero (Aug 4, 2010)

For anyone who might be struggling, having concern about where you are, what you're doing, walking the walk...if repentence and deep inner reflection isn't evidence that He is already working in you, then what could be?  Life has ups and down, especially the spiritual life.  A very wise man once gave me this scripture to my own question:


Isaiah 42:3
"A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment to truth."

Matthew 12:20
"A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he leads justice to victory."

Being bruised doesn't mean that you do not belong.  The final evidence of your decision will be in your works, not that you understood everything nor that you performed everything perfectly.  Take heart.


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## LatterGlory (Aug 4, 2010)

Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me, I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart. 
(Psa 40:7-8)

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 
(Rom 10:10-11)


*He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved*; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 
(Mar 16:16)

Neither is there salvation in any other: *for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. *
(Act 4:12)


And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:* God was manifest in the flesh,* justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 
(1Ti 3:16)


The like figure whereunto even* baptism doth also now save us *(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 
(1Pe 3:21)


Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the *name *of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
(Mat 28:19-20)




Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them,* Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.* For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 
(Act 2:37-39)

He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, *they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.* 
(Act 19:2-5)


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## LatterGlory (Aug 4, 2010)

*In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.* The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.* And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. *(Joh 1:1-14)


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## LatterGlory (Aug 4, 2010)

*Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. 
(Psa 119:11)*


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## luthiengirlie (Aug 4, 2010)

I told Adonai. I LIKE This PoohBear Woman!  She is asking hard and forcing us to examine ourselves. And CF ladies are rising to the challenge and yet not enraged by yours. Our reactions to your questions where we are in Yeshua! I like you PoohBear!


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## freecurl (Aug 4, 2010)

Great thread. May God bless this poster and others who struggle with the same questions.


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## LatterGlory (Aug 4, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> I am suffering from that too... religious exhaustion... Many people view Christianity as attending church, performing rituals, and not committing certain sins (you know how people distinguish 'big sins' from 'little' sins). This is what I got caught up in. I know that is not Christianity. It's about a personal relationship with Christ. That's what I want to get back to, or at least strengthen. I do pray alot but as I got older I started to feel like praying was useless. And I started reading my Bible (like actually sitting down during quiet non-distracted time) less and less. I started to find myself just using the Bible to point out verses to people and to use it for teaching other people, but not for myself necessarily. Even though I'm a relatively good person or have this presumed goodness about myself, I feel bad for any sin I may commit and things that my dad would considered sinful that I don't necessarily think are sinful (things that he says are sinful - like not participating in all the church ministries - *but are clearly not in the Bible).*
> 
> 
> This is what I plan on doing, getting some alone time after work. I have found that *turning to people has caused a lot of confusion.* *So many different views. It's ridiculous. *There are some people I have come across with similar views as me, but I'm really not looking for someone to be in agreement with. I'm just want to know what God is truly saying to me through his Word and communication with me. I think God is speaking to me in the most simplest way but I must be failing to hear. Thank you for your prayers.


 ____________________


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## Poohbear (Aug 4, 2010)

*sidney,*

This post is really good and helpful!!!  

I have actually listened to a couple of Paul Washer's sermons on youtube a few months ago. I liked them. But after awhile, I went back to confusion.

To answer those questions:

*Am I growing in holiness? *
Yes

*What is my relationship with sin? *
To be honest, I only struggle with a couple of sins, literally. It used to be more that developed only over the past few of years (like drinking alcohol and going to clubs with friends during a 2 year period), but I stopped that. Other than that, I really do not commit a lot of sin which does not mean anything.

There's some things that I do that I don't know if they are really sins or not:
-Speeding in my car
-Coming in late for work sometimes
-Being on the internet while at work
-Not participating in all church ministries
-Not tithing 10% of my GROSS income... I give money to the church and to people, but not 10% of my gross, mainly because I see that no where in the Bible... I make good income but I have student loan debt and car loan to pay off.
-Having negative thoughts sometimes either about a particular person or something that happened in the past
-watching tv/movies and listening to non-Christian music occassionally
-Not doing everything my father tells me to do. This is a tough one because I am an adult and live on my own now, but my father is also a pastor and I attend the church he pastors. And I know the Bible says to obey your parents, so I'm at a lost on this one.

*Do I have a struggle with sin or do I justify it? (Read Romans 7:7-25) *
 Yes, I struggle with sin. I never justify a sin that is clearly against God.

*Do I hate it more and more or do I try and justify it? *
Yes, I hate sin more and more.

*Do I have a love for Gods word, the bible? *
It's been a love/hate relationship...love in the sense that it's comforting and a guiding light, but hate in the sense of being confused about what to believe

*Do I hunger and thirst for righteousness?* 
Yes

*Do I embrace biblical correction from someone else?* 
I haven't really had biblical correction from someone else about any sins I've personally committed. The biblical 'correction' (considered correction to him but not to me) I've had has only been from my father when he tries to prove his side of an issue and tries to twist scripture to control and get what he wants.

*Do I have a concern for the lost? *
My concern for the lost has not been as strong as it was in the past.



sidney said:


> Poohbear, I think this is an important topic and i think it's great that you are examining your beliefs and disbeliefs. Some people feel they have assurance that they are saved and don't give it a second thought, but you are taking the time to examine yourself and that is a wise thing. The wife that I told you about, her husband*, Paul Washer* preaches mainly about how how you know if you have true salvation. I don't believe in his beliefs about Calvinism but he has some great sermons on assurance of salvation.
> 
> Anyway, here is a messgae someone posted about salvation.
> 
> ...


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## Poohbear (Aug 4, 2010)

Vicky7 said:


> Originally Posted by *Poohbear*
> 
> 
> _I am suffering from that too... religious exhaustion... Many people view Christianity as attending church, performing rituals, and not committing certain sins (you know how people distinguish 'big sins' from 'little' sins). This is what I got caught up in. I know that is not Christianity. It's about a personal relationship with Christ. That's what I want to get back to, or at least strengthen. I do pray alot but as I got older I started to feel like praying was useless. And I started reading my Bible (like actually sitting down during quiet non-distracted time) less and less. I started to find myself just using the Bible to point out verses to people and to use it for teaching other people, but not for myself necessarily. Even though I'm a relatively good person or have this presumed goodness about myself, I feel bad for any sin I may commit and things that my dad would considered sinful that I don't necessarily think are sinful (things that he says are sinful - like not participating in all the church ministries - *but are clearly not in the Bible).*
> ...


Vicky7, Can you explain why you *bolded* these parts of my quote?


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## Prudent1 (Aug 4, 2010)

Wow, this thread is on it! I am not able to answer and share right now but I will try to give my 2 cents this evening. BTW, Poohbear, I can't answer for others but, do not feel as if your questions are tiring. They are always good, valid questions.


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## LatterGlory (Aug 4, 2010)

Heb 11:6  But without faith it is impossible to please him: *for he that cometh to God must believe that he is*, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


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## sidney (Aug 4, 2010)

Prudent1 said:


> Wow, this thread is on it! I am not able to answer and share right now but I will try to give my 2 cents this evening. BTW, Poohbear, I can't answer for others but, do not feel as if your questions are tiring. They are always good, valid questions.


 
Can't wait!


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## Poohbear (Aug 4, 2010)

Prudent1 said:


> Wow, this thread is on it! I am not able to answer and share right now but I will try to give my 2 cents this evening. BTW, Poohbear, I can't answer for others but, do not feel as if your questions are tiring. They are always good, valid questions.


So you don't think my questions are tiring!?  

I can't answer for anyone else either, but I think my questions are tiring.  

But for some reason, I just can't help to ask. I've expressed my concerns in the Christian Fellowship forum and the Atheist/Free-Thinkers thread because I'm crying out for help on this.


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## sidney (Aug 4, 2010)

Poohbear, thanks for sharing more information about your beliefs.  It doesn't seem like you don't believe, it seems like you have a lot of questions. But of course no one can determine where you are except you and God. Great!, you've already listened to Paul Washer's sermons so I'm sure that gave you some direction.  I'm glad those questions gave you some insight, just keep pressing toward the mark and you will be fine.  About the other questions you posted, I can try to find some answers based on related scriptures.  Here goes. 

1.  The bible says obey the laws of the land, Romans 13:1-2, TLB.  Obey the government, for God is the one who has put it there. There is no government anywhere that God has not placed in power. So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God."  So it's probably not biblical to speed, plus it's not safe.  



2. Coming in late for work, that once can be addressed here, Colossians 3:23 "Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men"....our work should bring glory to God so we should try to do our best to be on time.  But of course, it's not a sin to be late.  Same thing for using the computer at work.   You want to be a good steward of your blessing (your job) so I wouldn't want to get disciplined by my boss for it.  



3. As for church activities, one of the signs that we are believers is that we fellowship with the church (John 1:7).  The bible talks a lot about the body of Christ and the vital role of each member of the body.  I think it's probably a good idea to serve the church using your gifts but does this mean you have to be at wednesday bible study,tuesday  choir practice, friday prayer meething, saturday noon day prayer, sunday school AND sunday service,LOL!  Just serve where you feel led to serve, it's about God not about pleasing man by coming to everything.  



4. I believe that the tithe is God's money, so I don't even count it in my income.  Malachi 3:8 says, a man robs God if he does not give the tithe and offering.  I don't usually worry about it, because the money I give usually is given back to me anyway, more often than not in monetary form.  Will you go to hell for it, no.  The Isarellites were commanded to give 10% to the church of Levi to do God's work (Numbers 18:21), but the new testament gospel is silent on it but it does say "lay by him in store as we have been prospered" (1 Cor. 16:2), and as we "purposeth in our heart to give" (2 Cor. 9:7), so technically we can give more than 10%. I don't think 10% is a lot, we get to keep a whole 90%.  Pastor Rick Warren gives away 90% and keeps 10% but of course everyone can not afford to do that.

ETA: I see I missed some of your questions, I'll be back tonight


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## Poohbear (Aug 4, 2010)

Vicky7 said:


> They are bolded because I believe that peoples opinion are *no* substitute for the word of God a.k.a *The Holy Bible*. People's opinion truly breeds confusion. Which is why I stopped posting my opinion and just simply posted the Word of God. It speaks for itself.
> 
> Figured you would have me on ignore by now.
> 
> Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: *for he that cometh to God must believe that he is*, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


Oh okay, I totally agree that people's opinions are no substitute for the Word of God.

And no, you're not on my ignore list. You haven't done anything to me personally. I just remember you posting in that Atheist/FreeThinkers thread and I responded to your scriptures. They were telling me, "Don't respond to Vicky7! Just ignore her!" But just because another poster tells everyone to put you on ignore doesn't mean I have to.


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## LatterGlory (Aug 4, 2010)

*For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness;* but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? *For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. *(1Co 1:18-21)

That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles. And as he thus spake for himself, *Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad. But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness. *
(Act 26:23-25)

Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.* But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: *That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 
(Php 3:4-10)


Rom 1:17  For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from *faith* to *faith*: as it is written, The just shall live by *faith*.


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## Spring (Aug 4, 2010)

Poohbear, 
I grew up in a secular home, and it was through asking questions & praying to God and His answered prayers that eventually brought me to salvation in Christ.  A weight was lifted, my heart felt clean, I was given a disposition to hate sin (that wasn't there before), I knew I was forgiven and most of all there was an inner knowing that I was His child.. It's hard to describe the incredible joy,... but perhaps if I hadn't lived such a sinful life and had the blessed privilege of growing up in a Christian home (I wish I had that type of upbringing), I may have just accepted things without truly going through the personal struggle with God... I'm glad you're asking Him those questions

to these questions below, God didn't rush me to make a decision right away, but over time through study and prayer, I was able to state what I believed and why.  Oh, as far as Christians being united... I think there is unity in fundamental beliefs such as how one is born again but after that .........  even the disciples disputed and disagreed... Peter had to be convinced in a vision to go to a gentile... then afterward through strong arguement, he had to convince the Church at that time that the gentiles were apart of God's people .... and so on... God is still at work



> Why aren't Christians more united? Why are there two sides to every fundamental issue of the Bible? (ie. women preachers, faith vs works for salvation, baptism, trinity, big sins vs little sins, calvinism vs arminianism, sinless perfection vs sinning Christians, and more? Do I have to choose sides?



good post


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## Guitarhero (Aug 4, 2010)

I am guarded about my decision to send this in because catholic things are not received well here at all..but this is something I use to examine my conscience.  It's obviously a  list for people who follow God and seek reconciliation with Him.  So, with this list, I take myself off the perfection hook.  I will sin...in ways even I cannot ever imagine...in the end, God will reveal all.  Does that mean not to seek perfection?  No, but it puts things into perspective.  I think that people often seek the vengeful God rather than the merciful One.  He's not brandishing a hammer, ready to conk us on the soul when we do wrong.  Slow to anger..He is.  We have to believe that and act like His children with a loving Father.  Salvation is offered to sinners before they repent.  Sorry, it's a little long:

1]   I am the Lord your God. You shall not have strange gods before me.

    * Do I give God time every day in prayer?
    * Do I seek to love Him with my whole heart?
    * Have I been involved with superstitious practices or have I been involved with the occult?
    * Do I seek to surrender myself to God's Word as taught by the Church?
    * Have I ever received Communion in a state of mortal sin?
    * Have I ever deliberately told a lie in confession or have I withheld a mortal sin from the priest in confession?

[2]     You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.

    * Have I used God's name in vain: lightly or carelessly?
    * Have I been angry with God?
    * Have I wished evil upon another person?
    * Have I insulted a sacred person or abused a sacred object?

[3]     Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day.

    * Have I deliberately missed Mass on Sundays or Holy Days of Obligation?
    * Have I tried to observe Sunday as a family day and a day of rest?
    * Do I do needless work on Sunday?

[4]     Honor your Father and your Mother.

    * Do I honor and obey my parents?
    * Have I neglected my duties to my spouse and children?
    * Have I given my family good religious example?
    * Do I try to bring peace into my home life?
    * Do I care for my aged and infirm relatives?

[5]    You shall not kill.

    * Have I had an abortion or encouraged anyone to have an abortion?
    * Have I physically harmed anyone?
    * have I abused alcohol or drugs?
    * Did I give scandal to anyone, thereby leading them into sin?
    * Have I been angry or resentful?
    * Have I harbored hatred in my heart?
    * Have I mutilated myself through any form of sterilization?
    * Have I encouraged or condoned sterilization?

[6]    You shall not commit adultery.

    * Have I been faithful to my marriage vows in thought and action?
    * Have I engaged in any sexual activity outside of marriage?
    * Have I used any method of contraception or artificial birth control in my marriage?
    * Has each sexual act in my marriage been open to the transmission of new life?
    * Have I been guilty of masturbation?
    * Have I sought to control my thoughts?
    * Have I respected all members of the opposite sex, or have I thought of other people as objects?
    * Have I been guilty of any homosexual activity?
    * Do I seek to be chaste in my thoughts, words and actions?
    * Am I careful to dress modestly?

[7]    You shall not steal.

    * Have I stolen what is not mine?
    * Have I returned or made restitution for what I have stolen?
    * Do I waste time at work, school or at home?
    * Do I gamble excessively, thereby denying my family of their needs?
    * Do I pay my debts promptly?
    * Do I seek to share what I have with the poor?

[8]     You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

    * Have I lied?
    * Have I gossiped?
    * Have I spoken behind someone else's back?
    * Am I sincere in my dealings with others?
    * Am I critical, negative or uncharitable in my thoughts of others?
    * Do I keep secret what should be kept confidential?

[9]     You shall not desire your neighbor's wife.

    * Have I consented to impure thoughts?
    * Have I caused them by impure reading, movies, conversations or curiosity?
    * Do I seek to control my imagination?
    * Do I pray at once to banish impure thoughts and temptations?

[10]     You shall not desire your neighbor's goods.

    * Am I jealous of what other people have?
    * Do I envy the families or possessions of others?
    * Am I greedy or selfish?
    * Are material possessions the purpose of my life?
    * Do I trust that God will care for all of my material and spiritual needs?


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## ToyToy (Aug 4, 2010)

Hi Poohbear,

I can't answer all your questions, but I will try to answer a few:
*
How do you know who you are in Christ? *
I know because I have an inner conviction. I just know. I'm as sure as I am sure that I am alive right now. 

*How do you know you believe in Christ?* 
Again, I just know. I have no other God other than the Yahwe, and I believe He sent His only Son to die for me. This sounds cliche, but it's true.
*
How do you know that you have a relationship with God?*
I spend quality time with God every day. I spend time with Him in the morning and when I get home from work (or outside) and also a bit of time before bed. I speak to God about everything - even the things I am not proud of. I am very open and honest with Him, not because I think He doesn't know (He knows and sees all), but because I want Him to be part of every single area of my life. We Christians forget God in our every day and then remember Him for "the big things". But it is the experience of Him in the "little things" that will prepare you for faith in the "big things". Simple things such as asking for grace, favour and wisdom for the day can do wonders for your day. You will be amazed how much God honours your request when you let Him into every area of your life. Even when you have messed up.

*How do you know that Christ really died on the cross for the punishment of our sins?*
Again, I just know. If I can't believe that, there is no point in me being a Christian. If I don't believe He died for me on the cross, I cannot call Him Lord. He cannot be part of my life, and I may as well just turn my back to Him. But I do believe, because I have an inner witness (John 14:15ff). 

*Why is Christ dying on the cross so significant for our lives today? Would we really be dying left and right when we sin against God if Jesus had not died?*
No we wouldn't. Otherwise mankind would have been wiped out long before Christ came for us. If you read Exodus, you will find many many rules concerning the different sacrifices the Jews had to offer. There were many guidelines as to the role of priests and the different kinds of burnt offering (amongst them sin, peace and thanks offerings) they had to do. We would still be doing that if Christ hadn't come. But because Christ died for us, we have now been reconciled unto God (read Romans) and are now heirs to the throne. I suggest you read Hebrews which explains in detail the role of Christ as our High Priest and mediator between us and God. This is why sometimes we exalt Jesus as our defender, because He is our lawyer who pleads on our behalf.

*It's so easy to say you "must confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord and Savior", but how do you know that you believe in your heart?*
I just know. I have an inner witness. The Holy Spirit tells me. 
*
It's so easy to say you must have a relationship with God. But how do you have a relationship with God when God is supposedly a spirit? Just praying and reading the Bible and living like Christ as much as possible? *
Again, it is hard to explain unless you actually are experiencing it. If you draw near unto God, He will draw near unto you. God is a Spirit, but that doesn't mean He isn't real. Chemistry aside, how do you know you are breathing air (that you cannot see)? You just know. 


*It's easy to say "all Scripture is God-breathed" or the inspired Word of God, but how do you know that for the fact WITHOUT reading 2 Timothy 3:16?*
There are a lot of books you can read of research that has been done concerning the Bible. "Learn the Bible in 24 Hours" (Chuck Missler) is a really, really good book to read. It's amazingly deep. There are other books such as "Unlocking the Bible" (David Pawson) you can read. They all help you understand the Bible better. 

*Why should I accept the statement "Christians will never stop sinning" but yet, people say "not everyone who proclaims to be Christian isn't saved or going to heaven because of how they live"? How are they living that's so different than you who still commit sin?*
Everyone has different theories as to who will enter heaven and who won't. The truth is, none of us really know except God. 

*Why aren't Christians more united? Why are there two sides to every fundamental issue of the Bible? (ie. women preachers, faith vs works for salvation, baptism, trinity, big sins vs little sins, calvinism vs arminianism, sinless perfection vs sinning Christians, and more? Do I have to choose sides?*
No, just focus on your own faith. Ultimately, you are accountable for how *you* live *your* life. It's not about sides, but your own walk with God. We all have to work it out for ourselves. 

*Can I go to Hell for not tithing 10% of my GROSS income?*
Again, I don't know what the criteria are, but I'm pretty sure you won't go to hell for no tithing. Don't take my word for it though .

*Can I go to Hell for not participating in ALL church ministries and not attending a physical church building EVERY Sunday to worship God?*
 Eh?? No! I don't think so.


Just wanted to add that I think it is good you are asking these questions. You should know why you are a believer. A lot of unbelievers, in conversation, ask why you are a believer and how you know there is a God. We should all be able to answer that. God did not raise robots, and sometimes I feel that we can be quite robotic - just doing and never asking questions. I'm not good at quoting scripture or evangelising, but I can only talk about what I do know - my personal experiences with God and the things He has done for me.


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## LatterGlory (Aug 4, 2010)

For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil. And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;* But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:* Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. 
(1Pe 3:12-17)


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## LatterGlory (Aug 4, 2010)

2Ti 2:15 * Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.*


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## LifeafterLHCF (Aug 4, 2010)

Those in the church esp in the pulpuit seem to be so fake imo..I prefer not to go to a church anymore because I desire a real deeper relationship with God with those who are unified in God.Now there are some churches that are solid but most part people are going through the motions.I'm so happy you posted this because I have dealt with that a few months ago..Praise the way you do..that something I embrace about God he made us differently so why would one do the same as others..God wants our praise our real praise..


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## Crown (Aug 4, 2010)

Maybe it's OT, but I feel the need to post this :

*The molting Process* 

  The Eagle is the most majestic bird in the sky, but something happens to all Eagles at least once in their lifetime, they molt. *In the life of every Eagle, they will go through a molting process that can bring with it a great depression. This is a wilderness time that all eagles will face.* 

  Certain eagles live for about 30 years or more but then they begin to lose their feathers, Their beak and claws begin to alter as well. The experts tell us brothers and sisters that during this time, *the eagle will walk like a turkey and they has no strength at all to fly.* 

  The molting eagle finds himself in the valley, unable to fly, with its feathers falling out. They lose their ability to see, as well, their vision weakens during this time. Calcium builds up on their beaks and they can't hold their heads up. 

  Now this is so traumatic, to the proud majestic birds that Eagles truly are. They lose their desire to eat, they only eat fresh meat and they have no strength to hunt.. 

  But then another phenomenon takes place. When the molting eagle gets in this last state, often times they will begin to peck on each other, occasionally killing another molting eagle, as they gather together in one place. 

  Now listen to this, at this time they will choose some area of a mountain range where the sun can shine directly on them, and they will lie on a rock and bathe in the sun. During this time some have observed other eagles coming and dropping food to the ones going through this "molting" stage. Yet its never the younger eagles that are dropping the food, it is always the older eagles that have survived this experience and know what the "molting" eagle is going through. One writer, with knowledge of these things states... 

"It is a most pathetic sight to see. Four or five eagles molting in the valley, where they once would only soar over to look for fresh kill.  *But, If they don't renew, they will die*."

They grow weaker and weaker. Suddenly there comes a sound from the sky over the valley. Screaming loudly, another group of eagles fly overhead and drop fresh meat over the dying birds. The screaming is encouragement. That's what they reckon; the screaming is encouragement from other Eagles who have already gone through this.  *Some eat and recover but others roll over and die*.

*Don't you think all of this speaks of something in our Christian lives as well?* There is a time in the life of The Christian believer *When it looks as though, and it seems as *though. They've been stripped down to nothing, Lets look at some of the marks of this molting process the Eagle bird goes through…


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## Crown (Aug 4, 2010)

*1. It takes place in a valley*
You know, *there are valley experiences in our Christian lives*. Its not always on the mountain top. It's not always soaring in the heavenlies. Peter, James & John were privileged to join The Lord Jesus on the mountain of transfiguration 
Mark 9:2 
Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John, and led them up on a high mountain 
And what a time this was? What an experience? But they didn't stay up there, they had to come down and they were brought into a valley. That is a reflection of our state as well sometimes…
There will times when we feel we are in a valley / a wilderness maybe… But I love to read Genesis 26:19 because it talks about Isaac being brought into a valley, we are told that *he had to dig there, and when he dug, he found a well of fresh running water*. 
But then when the Eagle is like this…

*2. They lose their desire to eat*
They should be eating, they need to be eating now more than ever before, but they lose all desire. Isn't that true of us sometimes as well. In the state we find ourselves in? *We lose even the desire for the food of God's word*. You Know I'm being honest, you know Its true…
Then there is another thing

*3. Their vision goes*
That sublime vision that we talked about a few weeks ago that is so awesome, so inspiring, the Eagle could spot a rabbit miles away… It has vision like no other bird, but while it is in this state of molting we are told that vision is lost. *You know if you lose your vision in God, you've lost everything*….
Proverbs 29:18 
Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.
When came into the Christian ministry there was a song that my friend Keith Barry sung, "Broken hearted warriors, on the battle field of lives lose yourselves Jesus." And there is a line in it that says…
"Don't let them cloud your vision…"
And that has always meant so much to me, right up to this day
A. Hurts can cloud your vision
B. People can
C. Church life can / its bickering / squabbling can
Then this happens to the Eagle at the time of molting..

*4. Calcium builds up on its beak, and they find themselves looking down *
This is self explanatory, brothers and sisters, I've got a little advice for you…
Turn your eyes upon Jesus 
Look full in His wonderful face
And things of earth will grow strangely dim
In the light of His glory and grace…

But then they tell us

*5. The Eagle begins to help its self in this state*
*They scratch at their own claws until they are down to nothing and so will grow new again*. They will knock beaks until the calcium that was weighing them down falls off. Brothers and Sisters the truth is this. *Some will not be content to sit and die, they will do something to help themselves*. I said something a few weeks ago that I still believe it to be true. The Lord helps those who help themselves. *If we make the effort God will respond to that*. Sitting about moping, sitting about reeling is not the thing to do. But *the greatest thing of all The Eagle does to benefit itself while it is in this state of molting is to choose a spot were the sun can shine directly on them*. The Experts tell us this, they will find a rock and they will lay on it. They will do so as they bathe in the presence of the sun. They will let the sun beam down on them. Listen to me, they will wait just there and its here that they begin to get renewed. Listen to *the word of God* again..

Isaiah 40:31 
But those who wait on the LORD
Shall renew their strength;
They shall mount up with wings like eagles,
They shall run and not be weary,
They shall walk and not faint.


http://eaglez4worth.tripod.com/id89.html


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## Sharpened (Aug 4, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> For several years, I've attended church every Sunday and taught children the Bible. However, I have been going through periods of unbelief and diminishing faith. I am confused about what to believe anymore. The more and more I taught, the less and less sense the Bible made to me. It's like I have the knowledge, but slowly lost faith.  I feel like good and bad things happen out of mere coincidence, not because of God's mighty power.


As you have discovered, knowledge is nothing without His Guide inside of us. There are time when we have to completely shut out the world and be alone and humble before Him, no matter how much our flesh rails against it.



> During church services, I have never really felt the spirit or felt like I wanted to jump up and down and clap and sing aloud like a lot of people I see in different churches. Then the pastor or a minister will try to say things in the pulpit like "If you don't get up and praise God, something's wrong with you" and other statements along that line. Am I lacking the Spirit if I'm mainly quiet during service?


My family stopped going to church when I was eleven and there was none of that happening. I have praised and cheered Our Father on my own whenever, wherever as an adult. If anyone has to make a statement like that during service, the terms “false fire” and “peer pressure” spring to mind.



> How do you know who you are in Christ?


He has been reaching out to me for years and made the choice to inspire me to seek Him out from a dead sleep.



> How do you know you believe in Christ?


He had made Himself known in my life, His Holy Spirit guiding me along the way.



> How do you know that you have a relationship with God?


I check daily to make certain His Spirit still dwells within me.



> How do you know that Christ really died on the cross for the punishment of our sins?


Historical research and seeing that the sacrificial/temple system did not work to keep the flesh purified without that connection to Our Father.



> Why is Christ dying on the cross so significant for our lives today? Would we really be dying left and right when we sin against God if Jesus had not died?


God was the one who started the sacrifice; He had to be the one to end it. Jesus is the fulfillment of so much prophecy and the generator of so much hatred and misrepresentation. The world _is_ dead already, an illusion that can be altered in the blink of an eye. Our Father Creator is eternal.



> It's so easy to say you "must confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord and Savior", but how do you know that you believe in your heart?


Because I am not ashamed of the Gospel and to talk about Him to whomever.

His actions in helping me draw closer to His Father. I have always been one to be contrary to the masses, so His life and frustration with the world appealed so much to me.



> It's so easy to say you must have a relationship with God. But how do you have a relationship with God when God is supposedly a spirit? Just praying and reading the Bible and living like Christ as much as possible?


I want to follow Jesus because of what He has done for me and my family, so I strive to do as He did and what He said: deny yourself (self-denial, break away from the flesh), pick up your cross (deal with the crap the world throws at you because of belief), and follow Him (His lead, His example, the “Great Commission”). Jesus did not simply sit around studying the Tanakh (the entire OT), but put it into action.



> It's easy to say "all Scripture is God-breathed" or the inspired Word of God, but how do you know that for the fact WITHOUT reading 2 Timothy 3:16?


Because He uses it to teach or inform me of something. Remember, God is the Word of God, Jesus is the Word in flesh, not the Bible.



> Why should I accept the statement "Christians will never stop sinning" but yet, people say "not everyone who proclaims to be Christian isn't saved or going to heaven because of how they live"? How are they living that's so different than you who still commit sin?


You have got to quit worrying about everyone else. Remember the parable of the wheat and tares? We may never know who all the tares are. It takes time to “kill” the desire of the world/flesh, which is why we have grace. Remember, He can read our true intent in our hearts, no matter how much we lie to ourselves.

Also, you need to ask Him in what areas you need to improve. What He shows you may be more than what you think.



> Why aren't Christians more united? Why are there two sides to every fundamental issue of the Bible? (ie. women preachers, faith vs works for salvation, baptism, trinity, big sins vs little sins, calvinism vs arminianism, sinless perfection vs sinning Christians, and more? Do I have to choose sides?


Very few trust the power of the Gospels in their simple, yet spiritually complex, form. Few still believe the Holy Spirit to lead them to all truth as Jesus promised. You see how people can take the Bible and twist passages all around.



> Can I go to Hell for not tithing 10% of my GROSS income?


No. We are to give in cheerfulness and to whoever has the need. We are blessed by the Father, so everything we have is His anyway.



> Can I go to Hell for not participating in ALL church ministries and not attending a physical church building EVERY Sunday to worship God?


No, or the first church failed because they met in homes, catacombs, fields, etc. for centuries. I strongly suggest you grab some old books on the history of the early believers prior to 400 AD. You will be shocked at what you discover.



Poohbear said:


> _"What are you willing to sacrifice to get closer to Him?"_
> 
> Good question!
> 
> ...





> *Psalm 51:17* The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.


Are you willing to get your heart torn to piece as you draw closer to Him? People do not understand that this walk could and will cost you everything.


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## Guitarhero (Aug 4, 2010)

Nymphe said:


> No, or the first church failed because they met in homes, catacombs, fields, etc. for centuries. I strongly suggest you grab some old books on the history of the early believers prior to 400 AD. You will be shocked at what you discover.



Absolutely and I understand that one.  Passover of Christ, Passover before Christ, performed in the home or other, not a Temple celebration.  So is the Sabbath.    It's evolved to one central place now...but you're right.  But that had always been that way for certain holidays.


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## LatterGlory (Aug 4, 2010)

But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 
(2Ti 3:10-15)


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## LatterGlory (Aug 4, 2010)

Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised; ) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: *Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together*, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 
(Heb 10:19-25)


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## Laela (Aug 4, 2010)

Pooh, 

Girl, I just love you... I've seen you run circles around the same questions..lol... But if you gotta hear it again, I'll say it again.. YOU ARE BEING CALLED and are hearing God call you. Only, you keep running from Him. You must have an important mission for the Kingdom of God...  I'mma start calling you Jonah-bear 

*Why is that?*

What do you fear most...? You know, there are really only two emotions: Fear (out of God's Will) and Love (in God's Will).  

Forget "other Christians" I don't want to hear about them or sin or who done did what....I really don't care. And I won't post Scripture because you're familiar with the Word. 

I want to hear what YOU really believe is keeping YOU separated from God.

I read your "wish list" up-thread.....but guess what? We submit to God's Will, He doesn't submit to ours. It is when we submit to Him, He gives us the desires of our hearts, *according to His will*.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, yet expecting the same results while complaining about it. I've seen some successfully answer your questions over and over for the past year, and you're _still _not satisfied. Why? Because only GOD can quench that thirst...and you know that. Stop saying you'll open your Bible to read it and actually do it. Don't say you'll pray and don't. Don't say you'll do anything to get close to Him and don't. You're only fooling yourself, no one else.

Quite frankly, you need to be zapped.... because He is a Spirit.

I look forward to the day you testify of being overwhelmed by the Holy Spirit that all you can do is respond any way you know how. The intense feeling of relief, as if you'd ran a marathon and jumped into a pool of cool, clear water. The ginormous exhaling you'll do when this happens as if you'd just worked out. The very essence of God is to be breathed IN and breathed OUT. He is our very life source.....through the Holy Spirit.

I'm not saying you can't have the Holy Spirit with you w/out the physical manifestations I've just described. You can feel His presence anytime...but there comes a time when we must open ourselves to Him to let Him have His way.... when He burns our flesh and purifies us! We can't quantify this, we can't qualify it...there's no way to apply logic. Human intelligence is tossed out the window....No religious ramblings. No reasoning need apply. God's way is NOT our way. This isn't some self-induced trance. *It's GOD.*


I know you know God won't force Himself on you. Which is why YOU must submit to HIM to alleviate this state of confusion you're spinning in. He's waiting...

I want to encourage you to Trust Him. The power to do so is only within you. When you start trusting God, you will NEVER be the same again.... *EVER* 

You will go from being CALLED to being CHOSEN.

Angels in Heaven will celebrate on that day. 

I Love you dearly.


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## luthiengirlie (Aug 4, 2010)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> I am guarded about my decision to send this in because catholic things are not received well here at all..but this is something I use to examine my conscience. It's obviously a list for people who follow God and seek reconciliation with Him. So, with this list, I take myself off the perfection hook. I will sin...in ways even I cannot ever imagine...in the end, God will reveal all. Does that mean not to seek perfection? No, but it puts things into perspective. I think that people often seek the vengeful God rather than the merciful One. He's not brandishing a hammer, ready to conk us on the soul when we do wrong. Slow to anger..He is. We have to believe that and act like His children with a loving Father. Salvation is offered to sinners before they repent. Sorry, it's a little long:
> 
> 1] I am the Lord your God. You shall not have strange gods before me.
> 
> ...


 
*whilesome things are of the catholic variety and i'm like ehherplexed*
*like spit out the bones and chew the meat i'm always hearing Christian folks say*
*it's very good for self examination and goal processes to say i'm going to get this area of my life under His subjegation yanno?*


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## luthiengirlie (Aug 4, 2010)

Laela said:


> Pooh,
> 
> Girl, I just love you... I've seen you run circles around the same questions..lol... But if you gotta hear it again, I'll say it again.. YOU ARE BEING CALLED and are hearing God call you. Only, you keep running from Him. You must have an important mission for the Kingdom of God... I'mma start calling you Jonah-bear
> 
> ...


 :littleang:bouncegre:Rose::Rose::Rose::Rose::Rose::Rose:



this was wroth the smilies may i say this impacted me too


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## LovingLady (Aug 4, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> There's some things that I do that I don't know if they are really sins or not:
> -Speeding in my car
> -Coming in late for work sometimes
> -Being on the internet while at work
> ...



You can tell right off the bat if something is a sin depending on whether or not Jesus did it. For example, Jesus obeyed all the laws that were on this earth regardless if He agreed with them or not. No matter how old we are, we still have to obey our parents. Jesus obeyed His father to the very end, God's will be done. 



Poohbear said:


> I agree that people are not going to praise the Lord the same way. It still bothers me when people in the pulpit still advise you to stand up even when you don’t feel like it.  It’s not a devil or evil spirit keeping me down, it’s just that I don’t feel all the excitement like everyone else at that moment. Plus, I don’t want to get caught up in just doing things just because everyone else is nor feeling force to praise Him.



I know what you mean. The spirit should move you, you shouldn't be forced to move.  



Poohbear said:


> Christ dying on the cross to pay the price for our sins is something that’s taught over and over. It is taught so much that it sometimes becomes meaningless to me. I know that’s not a good thought to have, but that’s how I’ve been feeling. But I’m wondering can someone’s death really pay for the punishment for our sins? How did Jesus’ death pay for our sins? Is it simply a matter of believing what it says in the Bible?
> 
> And why are sins being viewed as mistakes and habits so much now?



Correct me if I am incorrect.
If Jesus didn't die for us, we would be judged according to the sins that we committed. Jesus took the judgment for us in the form of torture and crucifixion. I am sorry I can't explain it to you better, this was explained to me years ago.

Can you clarify the last question I don't understand it.



Poohbear said:


> In that question about how to have a relationship with God, I was referring to God who is a spirit (and also the Holy Spirit). I have been taught that God is the Father, the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit.*  But anyway, so just praying, learning, and obeying His Word is basically all we need to do for a relationship with Him?* If that’s the case, I guess I do have a relationship with God, I just have to believe it’s real.
> 
> So sin is just something I have to accept as a Christian too, right? *So as long as I feel bad about the sin I commit, I shouldn’t worry about not being right with God?* When I read the Bible, God speaks very strongly against sin and doesn't take it lightly at all. Is it that I'm reading certain verses about sin out of context of the scripture?



When I first read it I was thinking "wow, she made it seem so simple." That is it, but at the same time there is more. I don't see God as my creator (even though He is) I see him as a father. Whenever I want to speak to Him, he is there to listen to me. If I am trying to do something and I make a mistake, he shows me the correct way of doing it and He wouldn't put me in a situation that I wasn't able to handle. You can thing of it as if your learning how to ride a bike. God wouldn't take the training wheel off until your ready. We may not understand His methods but obeying Him will lead us down the best path that will help to build us up. These are all characteristic of a great father.

Can you clarify this for me: "I shouldn't worry about not being right with God?"


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## freecurl (Aug 5, 2010)

Thank you all so much for introducing me to the Paul Washers' ministry. 
I believe a lot of "Christians" struggle in this area based upon NOT truly hearing the Gospel of Christ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ky8dTyPpiAo

You ladies are awesome.


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## Poohbear (Aug 5, 2010)

Abdijz said:


> You can tell right off the bat if something is a sin depending on whether or not Jesus did it. For example, Jesus obeyed all the laws that were on this earth regardless if He agreed with them or not. No matter how old we are, we still have to obey our parents. Jesus obeyed His father to the very end, God's will be done.


Well, I don't know what to do then. If this is true about sin, it seems like God is just setting us up for constant failure. 

And about obeying my dad... let's say my dad wants me to do something but I have already made plans that day. Am I suppose to cancel my plans to do what my dad says? If I don't, would I be considered disobedient to God?

And can I go to Hell for not doing everything that my dad wants me to do until he dies? (again, I am an adult and do not live with him anymore.)



Abdijz said:


> Correct me if I am incorrect.
> If Jesus didn't die for us, we would be judged according to the sins that we committed. Jesus took the judgment for us in the form of torture and crucifixion. I am sorry I can't explain it to you better, this was explained to me years ago.
> 
> *Can you clarify the last question I don't understand it.*
> ...


 
You had said in your first post: "That doesn't mean that we should go around intentionally sinning, we should still learn from our mistakes and become better from them." ... I don't feel like sins are mistakes or habits... why do you consider sins as mistakes?



Abdijz said:


> When I first read it I was thinking "wow, she made it seem so simple." That is it, but at the same time there is more. I don't see God as my creator (even though He is) I see him as a father. Whenever I want to speak to Him, he is there to listen to me. If I am trying to do something and I make a mistake, he shows me the correct way of doing it and He wouldn't put me in a situation that I wasn't able to handle. You can thing of it as if your learning how to ride a bike. God wouldn't take the training wheel off until your ready. We may not understand His methods but obeying Him will lead us down the best path that will help to build us up. These are all characteristic of a great father.
> 
> *Can you clarify this for me: "I shouldn't worry about not being right with God?"*


 
I'm saying as long as I feel sorry for my sins, I should not have to worry about NOT being right with God? In other words, I worry about whether or not I'm right with God even after I sin and feel sorry for my sins. And it has been said that a Christian feels sorry for their sins while unbelievers do not. So am I still right with God even if I sin? (Hope that makes sense)


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## Poohbear (Aug 5, 2010)

Laela said:


> Pooh,
> 
> Girl, I just love you... I've seen you run circles around the same questions..lol... But if you gotta hear it again, I'll say it again.. YOU ARE BEING CALLED and are hearing God call you. Only, you keep running from Him. You must have an important mission for the Kingdom of God... I'mma start calling you Jonah-bear
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for the love, but what am I suppose to do if I feel like God is leading me in a different direction than my father's vision?

I really don't care about what "other Christians" are doing either... I am particularly worried about what I do. I know that I sin and everyone else sins, are we all on our way to Hell? I just don't get the concept of Christians sinning every now and then and still being right with God just because they are believers. That is where my main hangup is.



Laela said:


> I want to hear what YOU really believe is keeping YOU separated from God.


Confusion about what to believe when it comes to sin and being a Christian. I just don't see how I can call myself a Christian when I still sin. Even after asking for forgiveness of the sin. 

And then how come EVERYTHING is a sin? Why is everything we do and not do a sin? Knowing or feeling like "everything I do and do not do is a sin" is a miserable way to live.



Laela said:


> I read your "wish list" up-thread.....but guess what? We submit to God's Will, He doesn't submit to ours. It is when we submit to Him, He gives us the desires of our hearts, *according to His will*.
> 
> Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, yet expecting the same results while complaining about it. I've seen some successfully answer your questions over and over for the past year, and you're _still _not satisfied. Why? Because only GOD can quench that thirst...and you know that. Stop saying you'll open your Bible to read it and actually do it. Don't say you'll pray and don't. Don't say you'll do anything to get close to Him and don't. You're only fooling yourself, no one else.
> 
> Quite frankly, you need to be zapped.... because He is a Spirit.


I agree.

But if I say I'm going to do something, I do do it. Don't accuse me of lying. Whenever I have said I'll open the Bible to read it and pray, I do!  I'm not fooling myself, nor anyone else here.  

It's just that after doing all the reading the Bible and praying, I am still left with these questions and confusion.... and it's mainly about sin and being a Christian. I can't get around the fact that being right with God means sinning no more!



Laela said:


> I look forward to the day you testify of being overwhelmed by the Holy Spirit that all you can do is respond any way you know how. The intense feeling of relief, as if you'd ran a marathon and jumped into a pool of cool, clear water. The ginormous exhaling you'll do when this happens as if you'd just worked out. The very essence of God is to be breathed IN and breathed OUT. He is our very life source.....through the Holy Spirit.
> 
> I'm not saying you can't have the Holy Spirit with you w/out the physical manifestations I've just described. You can feel His presence anytime...but there comes a time when we must open ourselves to Him to let Him have His way.... when He burns our flesh and purifies us! We can't quantify this, we can't qualify it...there's no way to apply logic. Human intelligence is tossed out the window....No religious ramblings. No reasoning need apply. God's way is NOT our way. This isn't some self-induced trance. *It's GOD.*
> 
> ...


Explain "submit to God". 

Explain "start trusting in God". 

So many people throw those sayings around but cannot explain it.


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## Poohbear (Aug 5, 2010)

*Nymphe,*

Thank you for your post. It was insightful as well.

What are some old books on the history of the early believers prior to 400 AD.?

To answer your question, I already feel like my heart is being torn to pieces in different directions and I don't know how to feel in my mind, heart, and soul.




Nymphe said:


> As you have discovered, knowledge is nothing without His Guide inside of us. There are time when we have to completely shut out the world and be alone and humble before Him, no matter how much our flesh rails against it.
> 
> My family stopped going to church when I was eleven and there was none of that happening. I have praised and cheered Our Father on my own whenever, wherever as an adult. If anyone has to make a statement like that during service, the terms “false fire” and “peer pressure” spring to mind.
> 
> ...


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## OhmyKimB (Aug 5, 2010)

I am like you, I grew up in church all my life, but now my relationship, and trust for God is coming to it's strength


Poohbear said:


> Am I lacking the Spirit if I'm mainly quiet during service?
> I don't shout or clap...mostly I just smile or  I am quiet, I tend to keep things in my heart and don't naturally just cry out. That's just me personally however
> 
> But anyway, here are the main questions I have been wondering....
> ...


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## OhmyKimB (Aug 5, 2010)

Start trusting God...to be completely unsuspecting of His motives.  To not wonder why things are happening but just know there is a purpose.  To know how you feel but not accuse him of what it is that you feel.


I see submitting as when I actually say God this is what I want, but we're going to do what you want and I'm going to try my best to remember who is in charge here for real.


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## Poohbear (Aug 5, 2010)

sidney said:


> Hi Poohbear, based on what you have said here, it seems like you may not have received genuine conversion (salvation). Understanding of his word, faith/belief in his word, the presence of the holy spirit, and turning away from sin are true marks of conversion, and it seems like you struggle in all of these areas. Is it possible for people to spend years in the church and not be converted, YES absolutely! You know the word inside in out, you have knowlege but no understanding. *Here is a testimony below of a pastor's wife who served in ministry 12 years before she realized she wasn't truly converted. Her testimony is here**: **http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAxeDX-GYHw**. *


I watched this yesterday evening and I could TOTALLY relate to what she was saying... especially about when she was a little girl. When she went up to accept Jesus and got baptized at age 14, she really didn't feel a big change or repentance of her sins since she was relatively a good kid. As she got older, she mentioned how she learned about sin from the bible or what the pastor or other people said were sins. She was able to keep the image of how a saved person would look to the world, but there was nothing in her heart. She felt like she did things because they were good things to do, not because it was for God.

I "accepted Christ" and got physically baptized at age 8.  At that time, I knew nothing about repenting of sins in order to be baptized.  I just felt like if I believed in Jesus I wouldn't go to Hell.  As I got older, I started to do a few things that I knew were sins. Later, I started to wonder "How can I do these sins that are clearly against God and be a Christian? Am I really a Christian?" That's why I don't see how ANYONE can claim to be a Christian and still sin, whether it's considered a big sin or a little sin.

I just feel like a Christian should be sinless... holy, blameless, pure, and upright.  And yes, I get what some of you had pointed out about it not happening overnight. But I feel like this:

If you know FOR SURE that what you are doing is wrong, you should repent and NEVER do that sin again.

If you did not know what you are doing is wrong, and once God reveals to you that it is wrong, you should then repent and NEVER do that sin again.

I'll just stick to myself here and no "other Christians"...The problem I am having is doing sins that I know are wrong AGAIN after I have asked for forgiveness. I can't be a true Christian if I do a sin that I know is wrong a week later, month later, year later, whatever time it happens again, and even if I feel sorry for it. Correct? If not, then what is correct?


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## LatterGlory (Aug 5, 2010)

*Act 2:4  And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. *

Act 2:38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost

Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us. 
(2Ti 1:13-14)

*Psa 119:11  Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. *


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## LatterGlory (Aug 5, 2010)

Act 1:8  *But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you:* and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. 


Rom 12:2  *And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, *that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. 

Rom 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. *So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.*

*This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.* 
(Gal 5:16)


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## Sharpened (Aug 5, 2010)

Abdijz said:


> For example, Jesus obeyed all the laws that were on this earth regardless if He agreed with them or not.


He did not follow all the rules the Pharisees had added. Obey Our Father first and everything else will fall into place.


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## CoilyFields (Aug 5, 2010)

Hi Poohbear,

I've sensed your struggle for a while now and don't worry...God knows our weaknesses and is not some dictator who we cannot ask questions.  I am going to pray about your questions before I try to tackle them. But in the meantime heres some questions to ask yourself,

1. Do you believe that God exists? (Is there a part of you that trluy believes-weather you can explain it or not-that there is SOMETHING bigger than ourselves?)

2. Do you believe that we as humans all have the propensity to do bad things? (sometimes seemingly without really wanting or trying to)

3. Do you believe that because of the above that you need a savior?

4. Do you believe that Jesus was the son of God? (The promised messiah of the OT that the Jews looked forward to)

5. Is Jesus your savior? (the only way to God, the only one who can save you from the true punishment of the bad things that you do)

If you believe the above...you are saved...you are a believer, you have salvation and the only thing to do is increase your faith.

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. There is nothing wrong with examining the document (the bible) that God has proclaimed as divinely inspired. 

A good series of books that may help you are the ones by Lee Strobal. He was an athiest journalist who set out to disprove Christianity and everything it stands for and ended up being a top apologist that now defends the word of God. He has books called, "THe Case for a Creator", "The Case for Christ", "The Case for Faith", and "THe Case for the Bible". I've read the case for Christ and it has served to strengthen my faith.

Oh! But one question I can answer now is about Jesus atoning for our sins through his sacrificial death.

1. When man sinned in the garden the punishment was death and seperation from God.

2. God promised that someone would come that would eventually recconect man and God (the messiah).

3. But in the meantime to stay in right standing with God and because God is not a lier...something had to die when we sinned. (the wages of sin is death...period!).

4. So God established animal sacrifices where man could transfer his sin to an animal and with its death atone for his sin. (Now this was not some easy way out because God required it be your best and purest cattle-the most expensive etc.).

5. So eventually Jesus came and he became the sacrificial lamb. Because he was 100% man he could literally physically die (for our sins). And because he was 100% God he could die transcendentially...for past present and future sins, once and for all. He was perfect so qualified as the most precious pure sacrifice.  He conquered death and the grave and became our ONE way to God, who no longer accepts animal sacrifices but requires that we accept the sacrifice of his son as our savior to be in right standing with Him again-and have eternal salvation.

OK...off to pray and meditate on your questions and concerns


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## Poohbear (Aug 5, 2010)

***1*** said:


> Poohbear have you received the Holy Ghost ( the evidence of which is speaking in tongues ) since you have been baptized?


I just know I have never spoken in tongues, but I have not read that anywhere in my bible that speaking in tongues is evidence of you receiving the Holy Ghost... 

However, the bible does say the speaking of tongues shall cease (as in stop, to come to an end):

*1 Corinthians 13:8*
*8*Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; *whether there be tongues, they shall cease*; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.


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## Guitarhero (Aug 5, 2010)

I have never spoke  in tongues as any kind of evidence that I believe that Jesus is the long-awaited Messiah.


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## Poohbear (Aug 5, 2010)

sidney said:


> Poohbear, thanks for sharing more information about your beliefs. It doesn't seem like you don't believe, it seems like you have a lot of questions. But of course no one can determine where you are except you and God. Great!, you've already listened to Paul Washer's sermons so I'm sure that gave you some direction. I'm glad those questions gave you some insight, just keep pressing toward the mark and you will be fine. About the other questions you posted, I can try to find some answers based on related scriptures. Here goes.
> 
> 1. The bible says obey the laws of the land, Romans 13:1-2, TLB. Obey the government, for God is the one who has put it there. There is no government anywhere that God has not placed in power. So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God." So it's probably not biblical to speed, plus it's not safe.




Romans 13:1-2 (KJV) says:
*1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.  2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.* 

To me, "higher powers" mean God (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). Not man.



sidney said:


> 4. I believe that the tithe is God's money, so I don't even count it in my income. Malachi 3:8 says, a man robs God if he does not give the tithe and offering. I don't usually worry about it, because the money I give usually is given back to me anyway, more often than not in monetary form. Will you go to hell for it, no. The Isarellites were commanded to give 10% to the church of Levi to do God's work (Numbers 18:21), but the new testament gospel is silent on it but it does say "lay by him in store as we have been prospered" (1 Cor. 16:2), and as we "purposeth in our heart to give" (2 Cor. 9:7), so technically we can give more than 10%. I don't think 10% is a lot, we get to keep a whole 90%. Pastor Rick Warren gives away 90% and keeps 10% but of course everyone can not afford to do that.


I agree that we can give more than 10%, but I also believe we can give less than 10%, especially if we don't have 10% or more to give at that moment in time.

And we don't get 90% of our gross income. We only get around 75% depending on how much you make and how much taxes and deductions are taken out.

Pastor Rick Warren isn't God either.


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## LifeafterLHCF (Aug 5, 2010)

Please don't take this the wrong way op but there no need to debate about religion and scripture..one will do as much or as little as one wants to do..be it tithing a little or not at all..you have the power to decide what you feel is best for you..bc honestly I would have done something real bad if i tried to everything every christian be it well intented or not told me about what I should do.I hope I didn't offend but I see this has been going back and forth and even though everyone has good intentions everybodys walk is different


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## nathansgirl1908 (Aug 5, 2010)

Poohbear, I have noticed that your posts have a consistent theme.  

I think you are allowing others to infiltrate your mind with garbage.  It is perfectly normal to have moments of wavering faith.  But I think you are letting nonbelievers convince you that God and His Word are foolish.  

And on the flip side, you focus too much on the people in your church and what THEY say you should be doing.  If you don't "feel the spirit" and feel like jumping and moving like others, there's nothing wrong with that.  Real talk: some of those people are not sincere.  And God is not pleased.  

So be yourself, and tune out the unbelievers around you (including on this forum) because that is the last thing you need to be listening to when you are feeling like this.  That is how Satan operates to turn people away from God.


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## Crown (Aug 5, 2010)

Turn to the FATHER, only HIM knows and can reveal Himself to you and give HIM to you. But, don’t let anyone tell you that you don’t have it if you don’t _speak in tongues_.

I know this belief is popular in certain groups, but Paul was against it. He said tongues are a sign for unbelievers (1Cor. 14:22), not a sign that you have the Holy Spirit :

1Cor. 12.4 Now *there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit*. 12.5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 12.6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 12.7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 12.8 For *to one is given *by the Spirit the word of wisdom; *to another* the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 12.9 *To another* faith by the same Spirit; *to another* the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 12.10 *To another* the working of miracles; *to another* prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; *to another *_divers kinds of tongues_; *to another* the interpretation of tongues: 12.11 *But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will*.
12.27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 12.28 And God hath set some in the church, *first* apostles, *secondarily* prophets, *thirdly* teachers, *after that* miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, *diversities of tongues*. 12.29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 12.30 Have all the gifts of healing? *do all speak with tongues?* do all interpret? 12.31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
13.1 *Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.*
14.1 *Follow after charity*, and *desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy*.
14.5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for *greater is he that prophesieth* than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

This is why it is said :
Act. 17.11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and *searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so*.


Tithing (10%) is no more : you are the temple and the priest.
Giving is what you have to do to whoever is in need : give your time, your money, your talent with a sincere heart.


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## sidney (Aug 5, 2010)

So you related to her testimony, do you believe that you are saved?  

Yes, I agree with you.  Once you are granted forgiveness, you shouldn't struggle with that sin for weeks, months, and years!  That is not conversion, that is called being in a continual state of backsliding or perhaps(not having any conversion at all).   I think eventually christians will get free of that sin, and not keep doing it over and over.  But there is spiritual bondage and I suspect that some sins are harder to get rid of than others.  Remember that son that was bound in the bible, only fasting and prayer could release him.  Remember it's a battle.  We are always at war with the flesh and principalities or powers, the difference is that we gain the power to overcome and eventually that sin with be overcome for good. 



Poohbear said:


> I watched this yesterday evening and I could TOTALLY relate to what she was saying... especially about when she was a little girl. When she went up to accept Jesus and got baptized at age 14, she really didn't feel a big change or repentance of her sins since she was relatively a good kid. As she got older, she mentioned how she learned about sin from the bible or what the pastor or other people said were sins. She was able to keep the image of how a saved person would look to the world, but there was nothing in her heart. She felt like she did things because they were good things to do, not because it was for God.
> 
> I "accepted Christ" and got physically baptized at age 8. At that time, I knew nothing about repenting of sins in order to be baptized. I just felt like if I believed in Jesus I wouldn't go to Hell. As I got older, I started to do a few things that I knew were sins. Later, I started to wonder "How can I do these sins that are clearly against God and be a Christian? Am I really a Christian?" That's why I don't see how ANYONE can claim to be a Christian and still sin, whether it's considered a big sin or a little sin.
> 
> ...


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## sidney (Aug 5, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> Romans 13:1-2 (KJV) says:
> *1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.*
> ...


 
*It's really each individual to decide what to give.  But we should aim to give God our best, a great illustration is Cain and Able.  Rick Warren certaintly isn't Gid but I think he provides a great example of giving God our over and beyond what is required.*


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## Sharpened (Aug 5, 2010)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> I have never spoke  in tongues as any kind of evidence that I believe that Jesus is the long-awaited Messiah.


Neither have I. Maybe one day I will, but I never worried about it.


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## LatterGlory (Aug 5, 2010)

Mar 16:17 *And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; *

Act 19:6 *And when Paul had laid *_*his*_* hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.* 

*He that speaketh in an unknown** tongue edifieth himself*; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater _is_ he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. 
(1Co 14:4-5)

*I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all*: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that _by my voice_ I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an _unknown_ tongue. Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 
(1Co 14:18-20)

1Co 14:22 *Wherefore tongues** are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:* but prophesying _serveth_ not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. 

Act 2:4 *And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. *


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## Poohbear (Aug 5, 2010)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> Poohbear, I have noticed that your posts have a consistent theme.
> 
> I think you are allowing others to infiltrate your mind with garbage. It is perfectly normal to have moments of wavering faith. But I think you are letting nonbelievers convince you that God and His Word are foolish.
> 
> ...


Thanks nathansgirl, but Trust me, it's not unbelievers influencing me to believe this way.  I have been feeling this way about whether to believe in Christianity or not before even meeting the nonbelievers online.  I haven't had any conversations with nonbelievers about this stuff in real life.  I started having these feelings back in 2008, just out of the blue. I even started a thread about feeling like an atheist back then. Then I gradually felt like I believed again, then I started back trying to be back intuned with Christianity. There was even a time back when I was in college, during the year 2004 I believe when I had doubts about Christianity after learning about the history of the Bible and the canonization of the books in the Bible. It had nothing to do with influence of other people. It's 99% my thoughts.

But to be honest about why I've been questioning so much...I think what really started this big rampage of questions is after meeting a woman from the Church of God denomination who said she no longer sins and anyone who sins and calls themselves a Christian is not truly saved. She made so much sense with the things she said and pointed out in the Bible. I just knew I do not measure up to God standards based on what the Bible says. Not what man says. I myself don't see how I can be a Christian either if I commit sin every now and then. I don't habitually or intentionally sin, but that shouldn't matter. The Bible says "go and sin no more!" after putting your faith and trust in Jesus.

And my church is relatively small.  None of the members say anything to me about my actions. It's just my father.  The other comments I have made are observations I have from visiting and attending other churches throughout my whole entire lifetime and from hearing other people's experiences with different churches and church people.

I'm being myself regardless, it's just that I don't like having labels nor living up to anyone's standards when I feel like I'm a pretty good person with a good heart as it is. I hate having to think everything I do and do not do is wrong, and that's what Christianity and the Bible makes me think.


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## Poohbear (Aug 5, 2010)

CoilyFields said:


> Hi Poohbear,
> 
> I've sensed your struggle for a while now and don't worry...God knows our weaknesses and is not some dictator who we cannot ask questions. I am going to pray about your questions before I try to tackle them. But in the meantime heres some questions to ask yourself...
> 
> ...If you believe the above...you are saved...you are a believer, you have salvation and the only thing to do is increase your faith.


 
*1. Do you believe that God exists? (Is there a part of you that trluy believes-weather you can explain it or not-that there is SOMETHING bigger than ourselves?)*
I believe possibly God exist but I don't know about putting 100% faith in the whole concept of Jesus, the Bible, sin, and religion.

*2. Do you believe that we as humans all have the propensity to do bad things? (sometimes seemingly without really wanting or trying to)*
Yes, but I think that's because, with some things, once we are told that something is bad that it makes us feel like we shouldn't do it even though we really do want to do it.

*3. Do you believe that because of the above that you need a savior?*
I used to but not sure anymore

*4. Do you believe that Jesus was the son of God? (The promised messiah of the OT that the Jews looked forward to)*
I used to but I don't see what significance of Jesus being the Son of God has do with anything anymore. I know this may sound offensive to you since you are a heartfelt Christian but after hearing "Jesus is the Son of God" so much, it has become meaningless to me. 

*5. Is Jesus your savior? (the only way to God, the only one who can save you from the true punishment of the bad things that you do)*
I used to believe Jesus is my Savior, but I don't know anymore.  I feel like if Jesus is my Savior, I would not go against the things in the Bible that are considered wrong.

So I guess I am not saved based on how I answered these set of questions.  


CoilyFields said:


> Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. There is nothing wrong with examining the document (the bible) that God has proclaimed as divinely inspired.
> 
> A good series of books that may help you are the ones by Lee Strobal. He was an athiest journalist who set out to disprove Christianity and everything it stands for and ended up being a top apologist that now defends the word of God. He has books called, "THe Case for a Creator", "The Case for Christ", "The Case for Faith", and "THe Case for the Bible". I've read the case for Christ and it has served to strengthen my faith.
> 
> ...


I have been considering getting those books by Lee Strobel. I need to go check them out.

Your explanation about animal sacrifices helped a bit.

Thank you CoilyFields.


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## Poohbear (Aug 5, 2010)

sidney said:


> So you related to her testimony, do you believe that you are saved?
> 
> Yes, I agree with you. Once you are granted forgiveness, you shouldn't struggle with that sin for weeks, months, and years! That is not conversion, that is called being in a continual state of backsliding or perhaps(not having any conversion at all). I think eventually christians will get free of that sin, and not keep doing it over and over. But there is spiritual bondage and I suspect that some sins are harder to get rid of than others. Remember that son that was bound in the bible, only fasting and prayer could release him. Remember it's a battle. We are always at war with the flesh and principalities or powers, the difference is that we gain the power to overcome and eventually that sin with be overcome for good.


Yep, I could relate to her testimony. I'm really not sure if I'm saved or not, especially with these doubts and questions...


By the way, about struggling with the same sin for weeks, months, and years... Let me give you a scenario...

 Let's say a 'Christian' professed a faith in Christ on November 1, 1990. He learns about fornication being a sin against God.
 But he decides to engage in sex for 5 years very frequently, from daily to a weekly basis.  He ask for forgiveness each time because he knows it's wrong according to the Bible
 Now it's 1995.  He maybe has sex monthly or twice a month. Still, he goes to God in prayer to repent. So he stops for awhile.
 Then he gets a girlfriend in 2010. He decides to have sex outside of marriage on July 1, 2010.  He goes to God in prayer, confesses his sin, asks for forgiveness in hopes of waiting next time til he is married.
 Well, now it's January 1, 2011, and he ends up having sex outside of marriage with his girl again.

Isn't that continual habitual sin even though that person waited 6 months to do it again? Does that person really feel sorry for that sin?  Is that person really a truly converted Christian if you went back to that sin? 

Would it make a difference if this was the only sin he struggled with?

And would it make a difference if he has other sins on top of fornication that he struggles with infrequently too?



sidney said:


> *If you read where is says, the powers that are or ordained by God, you get the sense that he is reffering to man. I don't know if you believe in reading mutilple translations or commentaries but if you do, you will see this is in reference to government*.
> 
> *It's really each individual to decide what to give. But we should aim to give God our best, a great illustration is Cain and Able. Rick Warren certaintly isn't Gid but I think he provides a great example of giving God our over and beyond what is required.*


Commentaries and translations are things I am trying to get away from. I would see how people would say "Obey the laws of the land" but never saw that in the Bible. I think I saw it in this Joseph Smith Mormon Bible passage, but I'm not a Mormon. 

Plus, there are some corrupt laws. For example, in the US, you are allowed to drink alcohol at age 21 but if you get caught drinking and driving you will go to jail. Why even have an age limit? Why even allow the selling of alcohol?

And let's not forget legalized abortion and divorce.

And I agree that it's really up to each individual to decide what to give. I just don't think there is a requirement according to these verses:

*2 Corinthians 9:7*
" *7*Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. "

*Deuteronomy 16:17*
*17*Every man shall give as he is able, according to the blessing of the LORD thy God which he hath given thee.


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## topsyturvy86 (Aug 5, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Confusion about what to believe when it comes to sin and being a Christian. I just don't see how I can call myself a Christian when I still sin. Even after asking for forgiveness of the sin.
> 
> And then how come EVERYTHING is a sin? Why is everything we do and not do a sin? Knowing or feeling like "everything I do and do not do is a sin" is a miserable way to live.
> 
> It's just that after doing all the reading the Bible and praying, I am still left with these questions and confusion.... and it's mainly about sin and being a Christian. I can't get around the fact that being right with God means sinning no more!





Poohbear said:


> I just feel like a Christian should be sinless... holy, blameless, pure, and upright.  And yes, I get what some of you had pointed out about it not happening overnight. But I feel like this:
> 
> If you know FOR SURE that what you are doing is wrong, you should repent and NEVER do that sin again.
> 
> ...





Poohbear said:


> But to be honest about why I've been questioning so much...*I think what really started this big rampage of questions is after meeting a woman from the Church of God denomination who said she no longer sins and anyone who sins and calls themselves a Christian is not truly saved. She made so much sense with the things she said and pointed out in the Bible. I just knew I do not measure up to God standards based on what the Bible says.* Not what man says. I myself don't see how I can be a Christian either if I commit sin every now and then. I don't habitually or intentionally sin, but that shouldn't matter. The Bible says "go and sin no more!" after putting your faith and trust in Jesus.



Ok, i'm gonna try and see if I can help here. This mindset of Christians not sinning seems like your main problem. Your view on this is *totally* wrong and is probably the reason why things don't add up in your mind. Jesus was and will be the only human that was without sin. non-Christians sin and Christians sin too! Yep, even the woman from the Church of God denomination you mentioned . 1 John 1:8 -> "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

Read Romans 5:20 - the end of chapter 6. I will make reference to it while speaking now plus it will give you a deeper understanding of the sin issue and being saved. I pray that as you read those verses that the words are not just words to be scrutinized but life that penetrates your mind to your spirit, and I pray that God through His spirit gives you understanding of His ways in Jesus's name. Amen. 

Ok, so no one can ever live up to the 10 commandments as a way of life. Only Jesus ever did. No one can ever live without sin as a lifestyle, only Jesus did. We are continually transformed to the image of Christ and this is a lifetime process. We will never attain perfection in this earth. The good news is God is not expecting perfection! He said YOU should come as you are. With your sin and your baggage and all of you. You can *never* be not good enough to be a Christian. God made you and however you turn out is no surprise to Him. If you had kids, you know they're gonna grow and you know what to expect. You wouldn't not want your child anymore because they became a toddler and started being messing the place up or because they became a teenager and started rebelling and doing things against your will. You would rather have them broken and damaged than not at all, right? Basically, that you sin and all what not is no surprise to God. My Church has a sign up saying "No perfect people allowed" . I guess it's to counteract this kind of mentality. 

Where sin abounds, grace abounds even more. With non-Christians, i'd say sin is a verb - a doing thing, a lifestyle. With Christians, the spirit of God in us convicts us of sin and 'free's' us. This freedom means freedom from the bondage of sin and not from the ability to sin - we're no more slaves to sin, we have a choice and there is a constant battle between the flesh: Galatians 5: 16-17 "6But I say, walk and live [habitually] in the [Holy] Spirit [responsive to and controlled and guided by the Spirit]; then you will certainly not gratify the cravings and desires of the flesh (of human nature without God). 17For the desires of the flesh are opposed to the [Holy] Spirit, and the [desires of the] Spirit are opposed to the flesh (godless human nature); for these are antagonistic to each other [continually withstanding and in conflict with each other], so that you are not free but are prevented from doing what you desire to do." As you can imagine, this is not easy and we fall into sin. 

The difference is as we are not slaves to sin, we have dominion over sin! We have God's grace. One of the devils biggest lies which he has obviously told you is that you are not good enough ... sinner like you. But the bible says in Romans 8: 1-3 that *there is no condemnation for those who believe.* The bible encourages us to confess our sins to one another. When Jesus taught us how to pray in the Lord's prayer, He asked for forgiveness of sins. This is because we are not and can never ever be sin free as long as we are on this earth.

Hope this has helped at least a little to clarify things for you. Christianity is not about sin/no sin, rules and regulations, this and that. We can't impress God by our ability to be 'sinless' in our eyes, we please Him by faith. Christianity is all about love; loving God and loving people. Stop putting so much pressure on yourself, these things will come ... the Holy spirit will help you. Just focus on seeking God. He will accept your sinful self ... you're not any different from any of His children.


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## Guitarhero (Aug 5, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> She felt like she did things because they were good things to do, not because it was for God.
> 
> I "accepted Christ" and got physically baptized at age 8.  At that time, I knew nothing about repenting of sins in order to be baptized.  I just felt like if I believed in Jesus I wouldn't go to Hell.  As I got older, I started to do a few things that I knew were sins. Later, I started to wonder "How can I do these sins that are clearly against God and be a Christian? Am I really a Christian?" That's why I don't see how ANYONE can claim to be a Christian and still sin, whether it's considered a big sin or a little sin.
> 
> ...



That's because there is no magic to being a christian.  It simply means "follower" of whom?   The Christ, the Annointed One.  Simply that.  There are no fireworks necessary.  Just follow.  When any man does good, he innately knows it's God in him.  Good and bad were written on all hearts.  When that girl and you did something good, it was for the very God who made you.  

Too many confuse exuberance with true repentance.  Too many feel that tears are needed to follow Christ.  Going one direction...then realizing that He's the One you wish to follow...about face...start following.  No brass band, no angels singing audibly for you to hear, simply following.  Are their stones?  Yes, and some are sharp and cut the feet.  Keeping on that road when you fall, but getting up again and following, that's what it's all about.  It's not about pinpointing some emotional moment...it's about conscious effort and when there has been sin, a conscious effort to turn away and do better.  You, like everyone else, are going to sin for the rest of your earthly life.  That is a fact.  But will your walk with Him outweigh the sin...will the scales tip on the good deeds?  Our works build up over a lifetime.  If you know He is the Messiah and you sincerely love Him, then you are His follower, no matter how imperfect you are.  The very fact that you contemplate your life, goodness and evil, adherence to goodness...evidence...yes.  


This is that dark night that St. John of the Cross was talking about on the various levels the soul travels through on it's way to be perfectly united with God.  Yours might be contemplative.


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## sidney (Aug 5, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Yep, I could relate to her testimony. I'm really not sure if I'm saved or not, especially with these doubts and questions...
> 
> 
> 
> ...







Well, with the hypothetical situation you speak of above, this is where we get into personal opinion.   In my opinion, true repentance does not look like the scenario you painted.  To me that is habitual sin.  It seems like in a scenario like that, whenever there is opportunity for sin, it happens.....even though the time spaces are there.  No conversion has happened because so easily it happens again.   Now I know some saints that had very sensual lives when they were in the world, but guess what....as madea said "ka klink!"  They've got it locked down now lol!  God is not a God that will continue to let his children be bound up in sin.  The word says, he corrects the ones he loves.  Look at Jonah, God chased him down and put him in a whale so get him to obey.  He didn't just leave him in disobedience.  So if some goes uncorrected for years, it's my opinion that he is not of the faith.  If we study the bible and look at the lives of all the people God considers believers, none of them share this testimony like the one you painted above.  Not one person.  Did they all sin, yes.  Look at David and Bathsheba, but God sent Nathan to bring conviction to David, and you know what.....he stopped.   Stopping sin is the difference between a true christian and someone who has religion.  The only true mark of a christian is holiness, so if habitual sin resides in one's life there can be no true conversion.


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## Guitarhero (Aug 5, 2010)

sidney said:


> Did they all sin, yes.  Look at David and Bathsheba, but God sent Nathan to bring conviction to David, and you know what.....he stopped.   Stopping sin is the difference between a true christian and someone who has religion.  The only true mark of a christian is holiness, *so if habitual sin resides in one's life there can be no true conversion.*


\\

Not to argue, but this is where the sects differ greatly and I'd like to point that out.  The rite of reconciliation says "no" to this because it exists for those who will repent.  Is there habitual sin among those who follow Christ?  Since we are not just spirits but are largely controlled by our psychology, yes.  Unrepented habitual sins ever and final rejection...no conversion.  There might be a struggle that one has and it has various addictive facets, not just commission.  I humbly disagree...but not to fight...just reaffirming where our side is in this discussion.  Very interesting, though!!!


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## sidney (Aug 5, 2010)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> \\
> 
> Not to argue, but this is where the sects differ greatly and I'd like to point that out. The rite of reconciliation says "no" to this because it exists for those who will repent. Is there habitual sin among those who follow Christ? Since we are not just spirits but are largely controlled by our psychology, yes. Unrepented habitual sins ever and final rejection...no conversion. There might be a struggle that one has and it has various addictive facets, not just commission. I humbly disagree...but not to fight...just reaffirming where our side is in this discussion. Very interesting, though!!!


 
I'm in the "there is no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus" camp as well.  Is this what you mean?   However, if you study the lives of the Saints of the bible I've never seen any saint bound up in one habitual sin, though none were completely without sin except Enoch.   There are many professing christians who continue to live in sin under the guise that God has overlooked and forgiven there habitual sin but I don't think there is any biblical precidence for that at all.  I'm not saying you are wrong because I don't know for sure but this is just my opionion.


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## Guitarhero (Aug 5, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> But to be honest about why I've been questioning so much...I think what really started this big rampage of questions is after meeting *a woman* from the Church of God denomination *who said she no longer sins and anyone who sins and calls themselves a Christian is not truly saved.* She made so much sense with the things she said and pointed out in the Bible. I just knew I do not measure up to God standards based on what the Bible says. Not what man says. I myself don't see how I can be a Christian either if I commit sin every now and then. I don't habitually or intentionally sin, but that shouldn't matter. The Bible says "go and sin no more!" after putting your faith and trust in Jesus.



Boy is this thread good for reaffirming your faith and causing you to study!!!  But....um....regarding the bolded, and not to judge her, she inadvertently sinned when she told you that because she claimed something that is not truth, by not being perfect enough to have known all scripture that is available to her when He commands us to know it:


Ecclesiastes 7:20

There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins.

I John 1:8

6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 
8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 

The key is fellowship.  Walking in darkness, meaning never repenting.  Could be a fine line, could not be...but the line is there.


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## Guitarhero (Aug 5, 2010)

sidney said:


> I'm in the "there is no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus" camp as well.  Is this what you mean?   However, if you study the lives of the Saints of the bible I've never seen any saint bound up in one habitual sin, though none were completely without sin except Enoch.   There are many professing christians who continue to live in sin under the guise that God has overlooked and forgiven there habitual sin but I don't think there is any biblical precidence for that at all.  I'm not saying you are wrong because I don't know for sure but this is just my opionion.




Oh boy, there were many but since you all only go by biblically-mentioned saints and not those coming after...I can tell you, many of them lol!  What about St. Paul doing things he hated?  Habitual.  You making me work!  LOL.  But from our understanding and teaching, Enoch wasn't without the stain of original sin, meaning that he needed sanctifying grace that is missing, having a natural corrupt nature.  He consciously chose to walk closely with God daily but was not free from original sin.  So, there is a difference between original sin's stain and personal sin.  That's what I'm saying.  And anybody born with the stain of original sin needs sanctifying grace...salvation.    But he is definitely a role model.

My question is this, is it one time, twice, how far apart, over a lifetime, over a week?  If committed 5 times in a short or long span of time?  Who gets to decide when and how many?   Just like Jesus fell on the road to the cross, He got up again.  That was a teaching lesson.  Get back up and keep on that road.  Shrugs.  That's how I was taught.  Others may differ in their interpretation.  But we know to regularly confess and when you do so, you gain more understanding and strength.  The important this is to confess it.  I guess if you didn't ever confess your sins, then you could say you had no conversion....??????  Shrugs...


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## sidney (Aug 5, 2010)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> Oh boy, there were many but since you all only go by biblically-mentioned saints and not those coming after...I can tell you, many of them lol! You making me work! LOL. But from our understanding and teaching, Enoch wasn't without the stain of original sin, meaning that he needed sanctifying grace that is missing, having a natural corrupt nature. He consciously chose to walk closely with God daily but was not free from original sin. So, there is a difference between original sin's stain and personal sin. That's what I'm saying. And anybody born with the stain of original sin needs sanctifying grace...salvation. But he is definitely a role model.
> 
> My question is this, is it one time, twice, how far apart, over a lifetime, over a week? If committed 5 times in a short or long span of time? Who gets to decide when and how many? Just like Jesus fell on the road to the cross, He got up again. That was a teaching lesson. Get back up and keep on that road. Shrugs. That's how I was taught. Others may differ in their interpretation. But we know to regularly confess and when you do so, you gain more understanding and strength. The important this is to confess it. I guess if you didn't ever confess your sins, then you could say you had no conversion....?????? Shrugs...


 

Honestly, I don't know.  But I think if someone where truly saved and sinning, then the conviction of Christ will be on their life and they will know what time it is lol!  They will get it together.  If they fall again, they will get it together.  I think the important thing here is that they will KNOW!  If you don't feel God moving and correcting you at 2 months, 3 months, 2 years, whatever.....there is a problem!  See the thing is, God will go to great lengths to save "keep" those who belong to him, even to the point of bringing calamity to their lives.  I know there is atleast one somebody out there that knows what I'm talking about.  If you don't know and you're saved....keep sinning and you will find out lol! When God convicts you there will be no question about it, and you will know that you are in him.  I'd say the important thing is to know you belong to HIM.  But for the ongoing sin, it just doesn't line up.  If you are a good, loving father---will you let your 13 year old daughter be a prostitute or will you bring whatever punishment is required to get her in line?  

*Hebrews 12:6 *
*because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."*


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## Guitarhero (Aug 5, 2010)

sidney said:


> Honestly, I don't know.  But I think if someone where *truly saved* and sinning, then the conviction of Christ will be on their life and they will know what time it is lol!  They will get it together.  If they fall again, they will get it together.  I think the important thing here is that they will KNOW!  If you don't feel God moving and correcting you at 2 months, 3 months, 2 years, whatever.....there is a problem!  See the thing is, God will go to great lengths to save "keep" those who belong to him, even to the point of bringing calamity to their lives.  I know there is atleast one somebody out there that knows what I'm talking about.  If you don't know and you're saved....keep sinning and you will find out lol! When God convicts you there will be no question about it, and you will know that you are in him.  I'd say the important thing is to know you belong to HIM.  But for the ongoing sin, it just doesn't line up.  If you are a good, loving father---will you let your 13 year old daughter be a prostitute or will you bring whatever punishment is required to get her in line?
> 
> *Hebrews 12:6 *
> *because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."*




Have you ever committed a sin more than once?  Anybody else?  Why?  How did you explain it to God?  Do you think twice was habitual, more than twice?  No salvation?  By saved, do you mean converted to Christ?  I think that the protestant concept of grace is different because ...of many reasons.  Imma get back tomorrow...I'm so tired...and I need energy to think.  But it's such an important topic.  Just how many times is habitual????  I'll subscribe so I won't forget.


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## nathansgirl1908 (Aug 5, 2010)

*Re: Knowledge of Christ...but Lack of Belief and RelationshipU*

My one true concern Poohbear is that you are trying to take others with you on your spiral.  You have asked this question about sin SEVERAL times.  You have gotten the same answers.  So at that point the question in my mind is what is your purpose?  

I don't know yet if I agree that you are running from His calling but I definitely feel there's some kind of spirit over you that needs to be defeated.  

And I may have missed this but what is your true relationship with your father?   He sounds like he has too much influence and I'm picturing a controlling character like Shug Avery's father.   

At this point I don't think posting scripture is going to help you. You know the Word. But maybe you should stop asking the same  questions over and over and just relax. Let it go.  

And in the meantime if you want to believe that foolishness about people not being Christian because they sin, then let that just be applicable to YOU.  Don't try to make it apply to others who know the truth.


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## sidney (Aug 5, 2010)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> Have you ever committed a sin more than once? Anybody else? Why? How did you explain it to God? Do you think twice was habitual, more than twice? No salvation? By saved, do you mean converted to Christ? I think that the protestant concept of grace is different because ...of many reasons. Imma get back tomorrow...I'm so tired...and I need energy to think. But it's such an important topic. Just how many times is habitual???? I'll subscribe so I won't forget.


 
Volver, of course I've committed one sin more than once.  All I'm saying is that I don't believe a loving God will let you continue in that one sin without correcting you.  You are absolutely correct, God will not condemn you for a sin you commit when you are in him!!  I'm not disagreeing with you.  I know you know what you are talking about.    All I am saying here is that it won't go on forever for he corrects you. That is-if you are in him.   I don't know what habitual is, but if you get a sin pray til is gone lol!   We know those he doesn't correct he gives over to a reprobate mind.


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## aribell (Aug 6, 2010)

sidney said:


> Honestly, I don't know. But I think if someone where truly saved and sinning, then *the conviction of Christ will be on their life and they will know what time it is lol!* They will get it together. If they fall again, they will get it together. I think the important thing here is that they will KNOW! *If you don't feel God moving and correcting you at 2 months, 3 months, 2 years, whatever.....there is a problem!* See the thing is, God will go to great lengths to save "keep" those who belong to him, even to the point of bringing calamity to their lives. *I know there is atleast one somebody out there that knows what I'm talking about. If you don't know and you're saved....keep sinning and you will find out lol!* When God convicts you there will be no question about it, and you will know that you are in him. I'd say the important thing is to know you belong to HIM. But for the ongoing sin, it just doesn't line up. If you are a good, loving father---will you let your 13 year old daughter be a prostitute or will you bring whatever punishment is required to get her in line?
> 
> *Hebrews 12:6 *
> *because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."*


 
I know what you're talking about!   Personal experience...unless one has come to a real point of testing, it may not become a concrete concept.  But it is something else to encounter God's clear discipline or His Spirit's constant striving within you to bring you to repentance.  

Many times as Christians we really are self-correcting.  We already know that we sin and we are introspective enough to reflect on that sin and maybe even take it to the point of beating _ourselves _up over it.  But that's not the same as God's discipline for those who have set their hearts to walk contrary to His word and ways.

Basically, at one point in time I thought I could give up and walk away from the Lord, and His response was essentially, "Ummm...no.  You were bought at a price and belong to Me."  And He did not let me go.  He *will* bring you to repentance if you belong to Him.  I suppose we can always choose to rebel against that act of grace and continue in sin, but still, no person who belongs to Christ will be able to continue in rebellion against God's ways without being confronted with the Lord's discipline.

And sometimes it's enough to just ponder the fact that you are still standing in faith in the Lord, and praise Him for it.  With the world, the flesh and the devil all conspiring to tear us down in the faith, to simpy remain in the Lord is a feat.  It is God who gives us grace to persevere.


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## nathansgirl1908 (Aug 6, 2010)

powerful.  'Nuff said.     





nicola.kirwan said:


> I know what you're talking about!   Personal experience...unless one has come to a real point of testing, it may not become a concrete concept.  But it is something else to encounter God's clear discipline or His Spirit's constant striving within you to bring you to repentance.
> 
> Many times as Christians we really are self-correcting.  We already know that we sin and we are introspective enough to reflect on that sin and maybe even take it to the point of beating _ourselves _up over it.  But that's not the same as God's discipline for those who have set their hearts to walk contrary to His word and ways.
> 
> ...


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## chiconya (Aug 6, 2010)

*How do you know who you are in Christ?*
Because I follow his commands and footsteps closely I preach the word in the same manner and mental attitude as the Christ. Doing my best to always manifest the spirit of Christ in all things. 

(1 Peter 2:21) 21*In fact, to this [course] YOU were called, because even Christ suffered for YOU, leaving YOU a model for YOU to follow his steps closely. 

(1 John 5:1-4) 5 Everyone believing that Jesus is the Christ has been born from God, and everyone who loves the one that caused to be born loves him who has been born from that one. 2*By this we gain the knowledge that we are loving the children of God, when we are loving God and doing his commandments. 3*For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome, 4*because everything that has been born from God conquers the world. And this is the conquest that has conquered the world, our faith.
*
How do you know you believe in Christ? *

Because there is no doubt in me about Christ. 

(James 1:5-8) 5*So, if any one of YOU is lacking in wisdom, let him keep on asking God, for he gives generously to all and without reproaching; and it will be given him. 6*But let him keep on asking in faith, not doubting at all, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven by the wind and blown about. 7*In fact, let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from Jehovah; 8*he is an indecisive man, unsteady in all his ways.

*
How do you know that you have a relationship with God? *

Because God loved me first and I strive to draw close to him. 

(1 John 4:14-19) 14*In addition, we ourselves have beheld and are bearing witness that the Father has sent forth his Son as Savior of the world. 15*Whoever makes the confession that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, God remains in union with such one and he in union with God. 16*And we ourselves have come to know and have believed the love that God has in our case. God is love, and he that remains in love remains in union with God and God remains in union with him. 17*This is how love has been made perfect with us, that we may have freeness of speech in the day of judgment, because, just as that one is, so are we ourselves in this world. 18*There is no fear in love, but perfect love throws fear outside, because fear exercises a restraint. Indeed, he that is under fear has not been made perfect in love. 19*As for us, we love, because he first loved us.

(James 4:8) Draw close to God, and he will draw close to YOU. .*.*.

*
How do you know that Christ really died on the cross for the punishment of our sins?*

Cause the Bible is God's word and I am a believer so it's true.

(1 John 2:2) 2*And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s. 

(Hebrews 12:2) 2*as we look intently at the Chief Agent and Perfecter of our faith, Jesus. For the joy that was set before him he endured a torture stake, despising shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 
*

Why is Christ dying on the cross so significant for our lives today?* It is our only hope for a better life now and in the future.
*
Would we really be dying left and right when we sin against God if Jesus had not died?*

Jesus died so we can have eternal life John 17:3. Remember God told Adam and Eve they will positively die. Did they drop dead right away? no so people are dying everyday in a sinful state Jesus will one day wipe out all sin and death. Revelation 21:3-4

*It's so easy to say you "must confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord and Savior", but how do you know that you believe in your heart? 
*
I strive to follow all of the Bible's commands and preach the good news like Jesus commanded. And live a fruitful God fearing life.

*It's so easy to say you must have a relationship with God. But how do you have a relationship with God when God is supposedly a spirit? Just praying and reading the Bible and living like Christ as much as possible?* You answered this one already. Yup Pray, Read the Bible, Preach, and do what the Bible says reading it isn't enough. Faith without works is dead.

*Why aren't Christians more united? *As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I enjoy Christian unity of 7 million people, within 105,298 congregations, in over 235 lands around the world. I can go practically anywhere and find my brothers and sisters. And we really look out for one another no matter what.


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## topsyturvy86 (Aug 6, 2010)

sidney said:


> Well, with the hypothetical situation you speak of above, this is where we get into personal opinion.   In my opinion, true repentance does not look like the scenario you painted.  To me that is habitual sin.  It seems like in a scenario like that, whenever there is opportunity for sin, it happens.....even though the time spaces are there.  No conversion has happened because so easily it happens again.   Now I know some saints that had very sensual lives when they were in the world, but guess what....as madea said "ka klink!"  They've got it locked down now lol!  God is not a God that will continue to let his children be bound up in sin.  The word says, he corrects the ones he loves.  Look at Jonah, God chased him down and put him in a whale so get him to obey.  He didn't just leave him in disobedience.  So if some goes uncorrected for years, it's my opinion that he is not of the faith.  If we study the bible and look at the lives of all the people God considers believers, none of them share this testimony like the one you painted above.  Not one person.  Did they all sin, yes.  Look at David and Bathsheba, but God sent Nathan to bring conviction to David, and you know what.....he stopped.   Stopping sin is the difference between a true christian and someone who has religion.  The only true mark of a christian is holiness, so if habitual sin resides in one's life there can be no true conversion.



I agree with you. I got really saved in 2007 and tried to stop sinning but I didn't immediately. The good thing was I read a powerful message that said I should just come .... and when I fall, the devils biggest lie is oh crap! I'm never going to be good enough! (which he told me enough times to make the Christian walk seem so difficult) but instead when we fall, the right attitude is 'so what?' I fell, so what? Go to God, confess your sins, repent, and He will forgive them and remember them no more so we should get up and keep on trying. This was a hard concept for me to grasp because I thought I was taking God for granted ... the devil was telling me this. But I went with it and so glad I did. Mid-late 2008, as I was drawing close to God and falling in love with Him, He convicted me of that sin gently, in my heart. I knew in my spirit that it was wrong, not just in my mind and came to the realization that I can't stop sinning in my own power and I should stop hiding this sin but give it to Him and let Him help me because it is only through God's spirit that we can break away from sin. That's why Pooh Bear, I said you should just seek God's face and stop worrying about your sin level. It's only through God's spirit that you can break free from sin, you can never do it on your own. After that revelation, through the help of the Holy Spirit I found it easy to make the decision and break away from that sin. Sin has no dominion over me anymore. That sin is no more sin as a verb for me. I have fallen since then and it was sin as a noun, not a lifestyle anymore and I repented and God forgave me .

Although God was revealing Himself to me when I was saved but still sinning, embracing me when I needed and all that, I never experienced real full intimacy with God until I stopped. It's like that sin separated me from really experiencing God. When I fall into temptation now, I think ... do I really want to risk this intimacy with God? and the answer is usually NO because nothing compares to dwelling in the presence of God . However, it's a process and there's no fast pass and God is aware of this.


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## Poohbear (Aug 6, 2010)

topsyturvy86 said:


> Ok, i'm gonna try and see if I can help here. This mindset of Christians not sinning seems like your main problem. Your view on this is *totally* wrong and is probably the reason why things don't add up in your mind. Jesus was and will be the only human that was without sin. non-Christians sin and Christians sin too! Yep, even the woman from the Church of God denomination you mentioned . 1 John 1:8 -> "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."
> 
> Read Romans 5:20 - the end of chapter 6. I will make reference to it while speaking now plus it will give you a deeper understanding of the sin issue and being saved. I pray that as you read those verses that the words are not just words to be scrutinized but life that penetrates your mind to your spirit, and I pray that God through His spirit gives you understanding of His ways in Jesus's name. Amen.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for this topsyturvy! Your post really relieved my mind and put things in better perspective.



topsyturvy86 said:


> I agree with you. I got really saved in 2007 and tried to stop sinning but I didn't immediately. The good thing was I read a powerful message that said I should just come .... and when I fall, the devils biggest lie is oh crap! I'm never going to be good enough! (which he told me enough times to make the Christian walk seem so difficult) but instead when we fall, the right attitude is 'so what?' I fell, so what? Go to God, confess your sins, repent, and He will forgive them and remember them no more so we should get up and keep on trying. This was a hard concept for me to grasp because I thought I was taking God for granted ... the devil was telling me this. But I went with it and so glad I did. Mid-late 2008, as I was drawing close to God and falling in love with Him, He convicted me of that sin gently, in my heart. I knew in my spirit that it was wrong, not just in my mind and came to the realization that I can't stop sinning in my own power and I should stop hiding this sin but give it to Him and let Him help me because it is only through God's spirit that we can break away from sin. That's why Pooh Bear, I said you should just seek God's face and stop worrying about your sin level. It's only through God's spirit that you can break free from sin, you can never do it on your own. After that revelation, through the help of the Holy Spirit I found it easy to make the decision and break away from that sin. Sin has no dominion over me anymore. That sin is no more sin as a verb for me. I have fallen since then and it was sin as a noun, not a lifestyle anymore and I repented and God forgave me .
> 
> 
> 
> Although God was revealing Himself to me when I was saved but still sinning, embracing me when I needed and all that, I never experienced real full intimacy with God until I stopped. It's like that sin separated me from really experiencing God. When I fall into temptation now, I think ... do I really want to risk this intimacy with God? and the answer is usually NO because nothing compares to dwelling in the presence of God . However, it's a process and there's no fast pass and God is aware of this.



Thank you for your testimony as well.

But I must ask... is there a sin even now that you are saved that you have done more than once?  If so, how do you feel about that when it comes to your Christian faith? And how is it different than habitual intentional continual sin?


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## Poohbear (Aug 6, 2010)

sidney said:


> Well, with the hypothetical situation you speak of above, this is where we get into personal opinion. In my opinion, true repentance does not look like the scenario you painted. To me that is habitual sin. It seems like in a scenario like that, whenever there is opportunity for sin, it happens.....even though the time spaces are there. No conversion has happened because so easily it happens again. Now I know some saints that had very sensual lives when they were in the world, but guess what....as madea said "ka klink!" They've got it locked down now lol! God is not a God that will continue to let his children be bound up in sin. The word says, he corrects the ones he loves. Look at Jonah, God chased him down and put him in a whale so get him to obey. He didn't just leave him in disobedience. So if some goes uncorrected for years, it's my opinion that he is not of the faith. If we study the bible and look at the lives of all the people God considers believers, none of them share this testimony like the one you painted above. Not one person. Did they all sin, yes. Look at David and Bathsheba, but God sent Nathan to bring conviction to David, and you know what.....he stopped. Stopping sin is the difference between a true christian and someone who has religion. *The only true mark of a christian is holiness, so if habitual sin resides in one's life there can be no true conversion*.


 
Thank you. One more thing with that scenario...

Let's say this guy repents, rededicates his life to Christ, him and his girlfriend... They refrain from sex for 2 years. They are still not married. Then February 14, 2013, they have sex after being celibate for so long. Are they still saved? Are they still considered holy and truly converted?



Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> \\
> 
> Not to argue, but this is where the sects differ greatly and I'd like to point that out. The rite of reconciliation says "no" to this because it exists for those who will repent. *Is there habitual sin among those who follow Christ? Since we are not just spirits but are largely controlled by our psychology, yes. Unrepented habitual sins ever and final rejection...no conversion. There might be a struggle that one has and it has various addictive facets, not just commission.* I humbly disagree...but not to fight...just reaffirming where our side is in this discussion. Very interesting, though!!!


This is what I think.  I think there IS habitual sin among those who follow Christ. I just can't agree with sin not being intentional when you know what you're doing.  I just feel like if anyone here is going to stick to this doctrine of "no one will ever be free from the ability to sin except Jesus", then you must include the habitual intentional sin as well. There's no such thing as non-intentional, "didn't want to do it" sin.



sidney said:


> I'm in the *"there is no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus" camp as well.* Is this what you mean? However, if you study the lives of the Saints of the bible I've never seen any saint bound up in one habitual sin, though none were completely without sin except Enoch. *There are many professing christians who continue to live in sin under the guise that God has overlooked and forgiven there habitual sin but I don't think there is any biblical precidence for that at all.* I'm not saying you are wrong because I don't know for sure but this is just my opionion.


I agree that there are professing Christians who continue to live in sin under this disguise of forgiven sin. I see that you have made a distinction between habitual sin and "other" sin... I just wonder what sins are non-habitual???



Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> Oh boy, there were many but since you all only go by biblically-mentioned saints and not those coming after...I can tell you, many of them lol! What about St. Paul doing things he hated? Habitual. You making me work! LOL. But from our understanding and teaching, Enoch wasn't without the stain of original sin, meaning that he needed sanctifying grace that is missing, having a natural corrupt nature. He consciously chose to walk closely with God daily but was not free from original sin. So, there is a difference between original sin's stain and personal sin. That's what I'm saying. And anybody born with the stain of original sin needs sanctifying grace...salvation. But he is definitely a role model.
> 
> *My question is this, is it one time, twice, how far apart, over a lifetime, over a week? If committed 5 times in a short or long span of time? Who gets to decide when and how many?* Just like Jesus fell on the road to the cross, He got up again. That was a teaching lesson. Get back up and keep on that road. Shrugs. That's how I was taught. Others may differ in their interpretation. But we know to regularly confess and when you do so, you gain more understanding and strength. The important this is to confess it. I guess if you didn't ever confess your sins, then you could say you had no conversion....?????? Shrugs...


Yes, my question too!!!!



sidney said:


> Honestly, I don't know. *But I think if someone where truly saved and sinning, then the conviction of Christ will be on their life and they will know what time it is lol! They will get it together. If they fall again, they will get it together. I think the important thing here is that they will KNOW! If you don't feel God moving and correcting you at 2 months, 3 months, 2 years, whatever.....there is a problem! See the thing is, God will go to great lengths to save "keep" those who belong to him, even to the point of bringing calamity to their lives. I know there is atleast one somebody out there that knows what I'm talking about. If you don't know and you're saved....keep sinning and you will find out lol! When God convicts you there will be no question about it, and you will know that you are in him. I'd say the important thing is to know you belong to HIM. But for the ongoing sin, it just doesn't line up. If you are a good, loving father---will you let your 13 year old daughter be a prostitute or will you bring whatever punishment is required to get her in line? *
> 
> *Hebrews 12:6 *
> *because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."*


Good response.



Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> *Have you ever committed a sin more than once? Anybody else? Why? How did you explain it to God? Do you think twice was habitual, more than twice? No salvation? By saved, do you mean converted to Christ?* I think that the protestant concept of grace is different because ...of many reasons. Imma get back tomorrow...I'm so tired...and I need energy to think. But it's such an important topic. Just how many times is habitual???? I'll subscribe so I won't forget.


Yes, this is another question I would like to know about Christians who believe they are alive in Jesus and dead to sin. 


sidney said:


> *Volver, of course I've committed one sin more than once. All I'm saying is that I don't believe a loving God will let you continue in that one sin without correcting you. You are absolutely correct, God will not condemn you for a sin you commit when you are in him!! I'm not disagreeing with you. I know you know what you are talking about. All I am saying here is that it won't go on forever for he corrects you. That is-if you are in him. I don't know what habitual is, but if you get a sin pray til is gone lol! We know those he doesn't correct he gives over to a reprobate mind*.


 
Thank you two for this dialogue going back and forth. It seems like it's a matter of God correcting you or giving you over to a reprobated mind if you decide that you love that sin more than Him.


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## luthiengirlie (Aug 6, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Thank you. One more thing with that scenario...
> 
> Let's say this guy repents, rededicates his life to Christ, him and his girlfriend... They refrain from sex for 2 years. They are still not married. Then February 14, 2013, they have sex after being celibate for so long. Are they still saved? Are they still considered holy and truly converted?
> 
> ...



- To the marriage thang. If we've been together a year and Adonai says he's da one. And my fam likes him. We. Gettin marrit. One year I aint gawn sin against YHWH. Cuz I KNOW we want each other BAD! That's just me.


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## Guitarhero (Aug 6, 2010)

sidney said:


> Volver, of course I've committed one sin more than once.  All I'm saying is that I don't believe a loving God will let you continue in that one sin without correcting you.  You are absolutely correct, God will not condemn you for a sin you commit when you are in him!!*  I'm not disagreeing with you*.  I know you know what you are talking about.    All I am saying here is that it won't go on forever for he corrects you. That is-if you are in him.   I don't know what habitual is, but if you get a sin pray til is gone lol!   We know those he doesn't correct he gives over to a reprobate mind.




We're all discussing...  When does one know when it's habitual though?  Correctionor conviction?  Free-will.  We have to agree to turn around and if one does, then that person is following Him.   I also have a different take on the concept of condemnation of sin.  I'm not sure exactly how another would view it  but in my camp, there is venial (less serious) and mortal grave sins (serious, committed in full conscience, breaking relationship with God and needs restoration through formal confession).  So, how strong is the desire to sin...habitual sins?  Depending upon the psychology of the person, some stronger struggles than others.  I believe that the Holy Spirit convicts you of sin and you either then or later turn from it.  If one doesn't turn and finally dies this way, where was the walk?  Of course, I'm talking very grave things that one doesn't feel remorse for.  There are many sins we commit, some without even realizing it. Some are probably group sins and we're unaware.  Ex, pollution?

It's very interesting all the concepts and takes we have on how this exactly works and is a good thread for studying up on what one has been taught and adheres to theology-wise.  It's not correcting and swaying another to believe any side, it's reaffirming what one has been taught and follow.  Hope that's clear about my participation, at least.    It makes you take notes for when the question arises in future what you believe on certain subjects when you are outside your group.  

And someone mentioned that we cannot live by the 10 Commandments.  I beg to differ on that one.  We test ourselves against the Decalogue to see where we've failed. It's always going to be valid.  Christ didn't change nor eradicate it at all.  We are imperfect so His sacrifice restores grace in us.


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## Poohbear (Aug 6, 2010)

*Re: Knowledge of Christ...but Lack of Belief and RelationshipU*



nathansgirl1908 said:


> My one true concern Poohbear is that you are trying to take others with you on your spiral. You have asked this question about sin SEVERAL times. You have gotten the same answers. So at that point the question in my mind is what is your purpose?
> 
> I don't know yet if I agree that you are running from His calling but I definitely feel there's some kind of spirit over you that needs to be defeated.
> 
> ...


My purpose is to this... I wish there was some type of unity on this but maybe that's being overly optimistic...

I also feel like ALL sin is the same... habitually done against God. People do sins because they want to. I just don't see any other way around it. I want to know how can a sin be non-habitual, unintentional?  If you have it all together, how come you can't answer that question? Just telling me "you ask the same question SEVERAL times" doesn't help at all. Have you done a sin more than once as a truly converted Christian? If so, how do you feel about that in relation to your salvation?

About my true relationship with my father... you're right. I believe he has had too much influence on me, mainly psychologically. He can be very controlling and denies it. Even though he can say things I disagree with, it still has an affect on me. Even though I was fortunate to have a father and mother, I wish I had a good relationship with my father, a man I could come and talk to, not hide things from.  A man that won't try to control all my actions and thoughts. I'm just glad I still have my sanity.

Maybe I should stop asking and let it go. I will eventually.  I believe that was the purpose of this thread as well to help me come to grips and see what other people believe. All the answers I have gotten are helping, even though I will ask the same question in a different way, form, or fashion. It's just my way of expressing, venting, and relieving my mind and my heart. And I'm not trying make anything apply to others... I'm just trying to see what others think about it.  And you say "to others who know the truth?" Well, the TRUTH apparently is different among every Christian.

And you maybe right about some spirit that is over me. I posted in another thread about this sleep paralysis experience I had last Friday night.  I was laying in my bed awake. All of a sudden, I couldn't move, or speak. This has happened several times before in my life, but this time, I heard mumbling in my ear. Now hearing sound has never happened during my sleep paralysis experiences! I know for a fact I wasn't dreaming nor hallucinating. I could actually feel the breath from this mumbling on my ear. The mumbling happened twice then after a few seconds, I was released from my paralysis.  So maybe there is a spirit that needs to be defeated. I am exhausted with the thoughts of religion and belief. Maybe none of it is for me.


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## Poohbear (Aug 6, 2010)

luthiengirlie said:


> - To the marriage thang. If we've been together a year and Adonai says he's da one. And my fam likes him. We. Gettin marrit. One year I aint gawn sin against YHWH. Cuz I KNOW we want each other BAD! That's just me.


So does marriage save one who is trapped in the sin of fornication? It does seem like marriage is the solution for quite a bit of sins. Is that why so many single women on the Christian Forum pray so badly for a husband so they can have "holy" sex? Is marriage a form of salvation from sin (especially sexual immorality)?


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## Poohbear (Aug 6, 2010)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> We're all discussing... When does one know when it's habitual though? Correctionor conviction? Free-will. We have to agree to turn around and if one does, then that person is following Him. I also have a different take on the concept of condemnation of sin. I'm not sure exactly how another would view it but in my camp, there is venial (less serious) and mortal grave sins (serious, committed in full conscience, breaking relationship with God and needs restoration through formal confession). So, how strong is the desire to sin...habitual sins? Depending upon the psychology of the person, some stronger struggles than others. I believe that the Holy Spirit convicts you of sin and you either then or later turn from it. If one doesn't turn and finally dies this way, where was the walk? Of course, I'm talking very grave things that one doesn't feel remorse for. There are many sins we commit, some without even realizing it. Some are probably group sins and we're unaware. Ex, pollution?
> 
> It's very interesting all the concepts and takes we have on how this exactly works and is a good thread *for studying up on what one has been taught and adheres to theology-wise. It's not correcting and swaying another to believe any side, it's reaffirming what one has been taught and follow.* Hope that's clear about my participation, at least.  It makes you take notes for when the question arises in future what you believe on certain subjects when you are outside your group.
> 
> And someone mentioned that we cannot live by the 10 Commandments. I beg to differ on that one. We test ourselves against the Decalogue to see where we've failed. It's always going to be valid. Christ didn't change nor eradicate it at all. We are imperfect so His sacrifice restores grace in us.


Thank you! The *bolded* part in your quote is also the purpose of this thread and all the questions I've been asking!!!


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## SND411 (Aug 6, 2010)

Poohbear, 

    Keep asking! We need to be reminded why we believe daily. The Bible says to always check whether or not we are in the faith. We should ask each other these questions all the time.


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## SND411 (Aug 6, 2010)

Sometimes I wonder why this issue of "sin" while being Christian can be so complicated.


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## topsyturvy86 (Aug 6, 2010)

PoohBear, you're going round in circles! Just focus on seeking God's face. Period. Leave the issue of sin alone for now. The sin I spoke about earlier was fornication. This should not deter you from really seeking God IF you want to. This particular sin is like a spirit and you can't stop it in your own strength. *Seek God* and ask Him to help you. Stop asking people these questions but ask God. You can't intellectualize the things of God. When you begin to do that, you miss the point.


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## sidney (Aug 6, 2010)

Paul says this*, Romans 6:1*
*What shall we say then?  Shall we continue[habitual sin] in sin, that grace may abound.  God forbid.  How shall we, that are dead to sin live any longer therein?*  Paul is talking about christians, those who should be dead to sin.  Thus, we can not continue habitually in sin.  Does everyone sin, here and there, yes and there have been many scriptures posted that support this.  How to define habitual sin, I have no idea.  But if you can't control it, then it's probably habitual.  If _eventually_ something will happen when you are around the temptation, it's probably habitual.  

Okay this is just an example I'm using in the natural, of course without biblical support but if I put an alcoholic  in a room with beer of choice, and they eventually use it again, then they are probably_ still_ an alcoholic.  They are just in remission.  When the addict is finally free from the urge and temptation (thus no longer doing it when the opportunity presents), then it's no longer habitual.  This is all just conjecture though, I don't know exaxtly what habitual sin is.  

PoohBear as for your question about the redication, I'm not 100% sure.   But I would recommend that the gentleman keep redidicating himself until he is no longer weak to fornicate.  As I stated before, the evidence of conversion is holiness.  Salvation doesn't come by a magic prayer or a redidication, but an internal change has to happen, and when that occurs there will be outward manifestation.  One of the fruits of the spirit is self control, and that is a good measure of our salvation.  We know the flesh can not stop sinning but the spirit can help us accomplish this.  I'll be back tonight (I will this time lol)



Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> We're all discussing... When does one know when it's habitual though? Correctionor conviction? Free-will. We have to agree to turn around and if one does, then that person is following Him. I also have a different take on the concept of condemnation of sin. I'm not sure exactly how another would view it but in my camp, there is venial (less serious) and mortal grave sins (serious, committed in full conscience, breaking relationship with God and needs restoration through formal confession). So, how strong is the desire to sin...habitual sins? Depending upon the psychology of the person, some stronger struggles than others. I believe that the Holy Spirit convicts you of sin and you either then or later turn from it. If one doesn't turn and finally dies this way, where was the walk? Of course, I'm talking very grave things that one doesn't feel remorse for. There are many sins we commit, some without even realizing it. Some are probably group sins and we're unaware. Ex, pollution?
> 
> It's very interesting all the concepts and takes we have on how this exactly works and is a good thread for studying up on what one has been taught and adheres to theology-wise. It's not correcting and swaying another to believe any side, it's reaffirming what one has been taught and follow. Hope that's clear about my participation, at least.  It makes you take notes for when the question arises in future what you believe on certain subjects when you are outside your group.
> 
> And someone mentioned that we cannot live by the 10 Commandments. I beg to differ on that one. We test ourselves against the Decalogue to see where we've failed. It's always going to be valid. Christ didn't change nor eradicate it at all. We are imperfect so His sacrifice restores grace in us.


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## luthiengirlie (Aug 6, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> So does marriage save one who is trapped in the sin of fornication? It does seem like marriage is the solution for quite a bit of sins. Is that why so many single women on the Christian Forum pray so badly for a husband so they can have "holy" sex? Is marriage a form of salvation from sin (especially sexual immorality)?



Well I was speaking truth and yet adding humor. Sex is only one componet of relationships. I do know those other women's hearts. The reason ME MYSELF AND I desire to get married is to 1. Give experience love. 2. Marriage is a MINISTRY in itself to exemplify Christ Love for us in an intimate sex. 3. To have kids to pass down the lineage of Christ. Sex as great as it is w/in the confines of marriage aint all there is to it. I want my marriage to glorify YHWH. If it don't I don't wanna be married to that dude. I decided to examine WHY I want marriage. I don't want to be married for selfish reasons but that's ME. I don't know about other Christian women


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## Poohbear (Aug 6, 2010)

topsyturvy86 said:


> PoohBear, you're going round in circles! Just focus on seeking God's face. Period. Leave the issue of sin alone for now. The sin I spoke about earlier was fornication. This should not deter you from really seeking God IF you want to. This particular sin is like a spirit and you can't stop it in your own strength. *Seek God* and ask Him to help you. Stop asking people these questions but ask God. You can't intellectualize the things of God. When you begin to do that, you miss the point.


Whenever I've asked God a question, I do not get an audible or visual answer.  The only possible answer I get is from the Bible. In regards to the sin of fornication, all I see in the Bible is that it says a fornicator cannot inherit the kingdom of God. I feel like that's for anyone who considers themselves a Christian or not. I do not see any verse that says, "if you believe in Jesus and fornicate, you still get to go to Heaven." And I don't see anything that says, "Jesus' death on the cross forgave past, present, and future sins."   I just think that a Christian that slips up and fornicates either habitually or non-habitually is not truly saved. 



sidney said:


> Paul says this*, Romans 6:1*
> *What shall we say then? Shall we continue[habitual sin] in sin, that grace may abound. God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin live any longer therein?* Paul is talking about christians, those who should be dead to sin. Thus, we can not continue habitually in sin. Does everyone sin, here and there, yes and there have been many scriptures posted that support this. How to define habitual sin, I have no idea. But if you can't control it, then it's probably habitual. If _eventually_ something will happen when you are around the temptation, it's probably habitual.
> 
> Okay this is just an example I'm using in the natural, of course without biblical support but if I put an alcoholic in a room with beer of choice, and they eventually use it again, then they are probably_ still_ an alcoholic. They are just in remission. When the addict is finally free from the urge and temptation (thus no longer doing it when the opportunity presents), then it's no longer habitual. This is all just conjecture though, I don't know exaxtly what habitual sin is.
> ...


The Amplified Bible added the word [habitual sin] in that verse.  The unaltered King James Version simple says "sin". I don't see how adding [habitual sin] in that verse makes it say anything about so-called "non-habitual" sin.

In other words, if you are a converted Christian of holiness and you slip up and sin, that's habitual sin. It's not a mistake. A mistake is like if you get an answer incorrect on a test. A habit is like if you can't stop biting your nails or playing in your hair.

I have been taught about how our sinful nature is at war with our spiritual nature. That Romans 7 verse about Paul has been thrown at me alot too. But this is another question that I've probably asked in a different way.... Can the Holy Spirit really help Christians stop sinning if the Christian's flesh cannot stop sinning?  It just sounds miserable to me. It makes me feel like sin is a crutch to keep religion in power.


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## Poohbear (Aug 6, 2010)

luthiengirlie said:


> Well I was speaking truth and yet adding humor. Sex is only one componet of relationships. I do know those other women's hearts. The reason ME MYSELF AND I desire to get married is to 1. Give experience love. 2. Marriage is a MINISTRY in itself to exemplify Christ Love for us in an intimate sex. 3. To have kids to pass down the lineage of Christ. Sex as great as it is w/in the confines of marriage aint all there is to it. I want my marriage to glorify YHWH. If it don't I don't wanna be married to that dude. I decided to examine WHY I want marriage. I don't want to be married for selfish reasons but that's ME. I don't know about other Christian women


Thanks. I agree. That's good that you feel this way.


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## Poohbear (Aug 6, 2010)

*chiconya*, thanks for your response. For some odd reason, your post almost made me tear up in the eyes here at work. I don't know why. And as much people talk bad about Jehovah Witnesses, I was surprised to see that you stated that you are of the Jehovah Witness sect. I would have never thought.



chiconya said:


> *How do you know who you are in Christ?*
> Because I follow his commands and footsteps closely I preach the word in the same manner and mental attitude as the Christ. Doing my best to always manifest the spirit of Christ in all things.
> 
> (1 Peter 2:21) 21*In fact, to this [course] YOU were called, because even Christ suffered for YOU, leaving YOU a model for YOU to follow his steps closely.
> ...


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## topsyturvy86 (Aug 6, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Thank you so much for this topsyturvy! Your post really relieved my mind and put things in better perspective.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Poohbear said:


> Whenever I've asked God a question, I do not get an audible or visual answer.  The only possible answer I get is from the Bible. In regards to the sin of fornication, all I see in the Bible is that it says a fornicator cannot inherit the kingdom of God. I feel like that's for anyone who considers themselves a Christian or not. I do not see any verse that says, "if you believe in Jesus and fornicate, you still get to go to Heaven." And I don't see anything that says, "Jesus' death on the cross forgave past, present, and future sins."   I just think that a Christian that slips up and fornicates either habitually or non-habitually is not truly saved.



Regarding your first question, I don't count my sins. God doesn't count my sins either. He forgives and remembers them no more. If God forgives and forgets, why should I still hold on to it? To answer your question, I don't know as I said, I don't count. There is nothing I am particularly struggling with at the moment but have in the past and it made my faith even stronger as I learnt and drew strength from the Lord and asked Him to help me. For the second part, I'm not going to get into the sin classification debate. Read the scriptures I gave you.

Question 2. Learn to wait on the Lord for a response. I get the feeling you're trying hard to justify your sin. The greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind. If you really love Him, you will love the things He loves and hate the things He hates. The Holy spirit is there to help us. Falling in love takes time ... it's a process. It takes you knowing God and appreciating Him. Pooh Bear, again *seek God's face and leave the issue of sin alone for now*, it is distracting you from the things that really matter. I will be praying for you 

ETA: For the first question, there was actually something I fell into continuously a couple of months ago. I struggled and during that time, I was talking to God and when I sinned, I would repent and tell Him why I sinned, how I felt, how the situation is making me feel, How I feel when He doesn't respond asap, and so on. I would cry and tell Him I might do it again because I need release but He helped me overcome it and then even blessed me . Real Christianity is a relationship ... so no, it didn't negatively affect my 'Christian faith'.


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## LatterGlory (Aug 6, 2010)

Joh 8:34  Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 
(Joh 16:7-11)

Rom 3:20 * Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. * 

Rom 7:8  But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 

Rom 7:14  For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 

Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. *For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. [/B](Rom 7:20-25)

Gal 5:16  This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.  

1Ti 5:20  Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 
(Jas 1:12-15)*


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## LatterGlory (Aug 6, 2010)

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 
(Rom 8:3-8)


*Rom 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.*


And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 
(Rom 8:10-14)


----------



## nathansgirl1908 (Aug 6, 2010)

*Re: Knowledge of Christ...but Lack of Belief and RelationshipU*



Poohbear said:


> My purpose is to this... I wish there was some type of unity on this but maybe that's being overly optimistic...


Unity in WHAT?  That's the thing.  What is it you want everyone to agree on?  That continuing to sin doesn't make you a saved Christian?  You don't need unity on that point.  




> I also feel like ALL sin is the same... habitually done against God. People do sins because they want to. I just don't see any other way around it. I want to know how can a sin be non-habitual, unintentional? If you have it all together, how come you can't answer that question? Just telling me "you ask the same question SEVERAL times" doesn't help at all. Have you done a sin more than once as a truly converted Christian? If so, how do you feel about that in relation to your salvation?


 
I HAVE answered this question before.  Several people HAVE answered this question before.  I have done a sin more than once.  Until I repented, I felt convicted. Once I truly repented and turned away, I was able to move on.  I don't feel it affected my salvation.   

But I fail to see how asking others about this is going to help YOU.  






> Maybe I should stop asking and let it go. I will eventually. I believe that was the purpose of this thread as well to help me come to grips and see what other people believe. All the answers I have gotten are helping, even though I will ask the same question in a different way, form, or fashion. It's just my way of expressing, venting, and relieving my mind and my heart. And I'm not trying make anything apply to others... I'm just trying to see what others think about it. And you say "to others who know the truth?" Well, the TRUTH apparently is different among every Christian.


  Yes, I think you should let it go.  You are getting the same responses you have gotten before.  And you say they are helping, but you said that before.  Clearly they didn't help because you are right back asking this question.  And seeing what others believe is what is getting you in trouble in the first place. You say otherwise, but I see some dialogue you have on here with professed atheists who have made it clear that they want others to feel the way they do.  



> And you may be right about some spirit that is over me. I posted in another thread about this sleep paralysis experience I had last Friday night. I was laying in my bed awake. All of a sudden, I couldn't move, or speak. This has happened several times before in my life, but this time, I heard mumbling in my ear. Now hearing sound has never happened during my sleep paralysis experiences! I know for a fact I wasn't dreaming nor hallucinating. I could actually feel the breath from this mumbling on my ear. The mumbling happened twice then after a few seconds, I was released from my paralysis. So maybe there is a spirit that needs to be defeated. I am exhausted with the thoughts of religion and belief. Maybe none of it is for me.


 Yes, that's a spirit.  And you are opening the door for it to come further and further into your life.  This is the time to dig in your heels.  Confess the Word over and over even if it feels mechanical.  You are going to have to fight that spirit, and it won't be easy.  When you feel down, sing a song of praise.  Even if you feel stupid or you feel it doesn't make sense, keep doing it.


----------



## Poohbear (Aug 6, 2010)

topsyturvy86 said:


> Regarding your first question, I don't count my sins. God doesn't count my sins either. He forgives and remembers them no more. If God forgives and forgets, why should I still hold on to it? To answer your question, I don't know as I said, I don't count. There is nothing I am particularly struggling with at the moment but have in the past and it made my faith even stronger as I learnt and drew strength from the Lord and asked Him to help me. For the second part, I'm not going to get into the sin classification debate. Read the scriptures I gave you.
> 
> Question 2. Learn to wait on the Lord for a response. *I get the feeling you're trying hard to justify your sin.* The greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind. If you really love Him, you will love the things He loves and hate the things He hates. The Holy spirit is there to help us. Falling in love takes time ... it's a process. It takes you knowing God and appreciating Him. Pooh Bear, again seek God's face and leave the issue of sin alone for now, it is distracting you from the things that really matter. I will be praying for you
> 
> ETA: For the first question, there was actually something I fell into continuously a couple of months ago. I struggled and during that time, I was talking to God and when I sinned, I would repent and tell Him why I sinned, how I felt, how the situation is making me feel, How I feel when He doesn't respond asap, and so on. I would cry and tell Him I might do it again because I need release but He helped me overcome it and then even blessed me . Real Christianity is a relationship ... so no, it didn't negatively affect my 'Christian faith'.


 
Thank you for your response, but the *bolded *part is not what I am trying to do at all. I'm not here to justify sin or anything not good. I'm actually trying to do the opposite... speak against sin and stop sinning.

I guess that is something I need to do is to not keep track of how many times I sin or worry about whether or not what I'm doing or not doing is a sin, especially if it's clearly not stated in the Bible.


----------



## Poohbear (Aug 6, 2010)

*Re: Knowledge of Christ...but Lack of Belief and RelationshipU*



nathansgirl1908 said:


> Unity in WHAT? That's the thing. What is it you want everyone to agree on? That continuing to sin doesn't make you a saved Christian? You don't need unity on that point.
> 
> I HAVE answered this question before. Several people HAVE answered this question before. I have done a sin more than once. Until I repented, I felt convicted. Once I truly repented and turned away, I was able to move on. I don't feel it affected my salvation.
> 
> ...


 
Unity in Christian belief...NOT in what I believe, but in God's truth. But I know that is unrealistic and impossible according to YOU.

I am NOT trying to get people to believe "continuing to sin doesn't make you a saved Christian". I was just trying to see if anyone can see where I was coming from with that concept.  Like Volver_Alma_Gitana said:* "**It's not correcting and swaying another to believe any side, it's reaffirming what one has been taught and follow."* That's how it's going to help ME. I want to see how other Christian's thought processes are when it comes to sin if we apparently can't stop sinning 'til we die.

And no, no one has personally expressed an answer for doing the same sin more than once. That is a new question I asked in this particular thread. Thanks for answering it.

And no one in that 'atheist' thread has told me that they want others to feel the way they do, at least that's not what I got out of the 'atheist' thread.  I can just relate to some of the experiences expressed in that 'atheist' thread. I am just being real with my thoughts and feelings in the Christian forum and the Atheist/Free-Thinker thread. I'm not ashamed of how I feel so I'm going to express it either here or there. 

You act as if you have everything together and have this truth that all Christians know and believe. Can you honestly say that everything is as clear as clean water with the Christian faith to you?


----------



## Jynlnd13 (Aug 6, 2010)

*Re: Knowledge of Christ...but Lack of Belief and RelationshipU*

................................


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## CoilyFields (Aug 6, 2010)

Ephesians 1: 8-9
" For by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is  the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

John 3:16
" For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes on him shall not persish but have everlasting life."

These two scriptures are very clear about salvation; its an unearned gift, given by the grace of Gods love to whoever BELIEVES. period.

Do not confuse salvation with sanctification.  salvation is our free ticket to heaven...sanctification is the process by which after conversion we become more Christ-like (holy).
Sanctificaiton is like this:
"As we mature in Christ we should be sinning less but feeling more guilty when we do"

If thats not enough...we know that our bodies are the temple of the holy ghost...granted to us upon salvation. The Bible talks about not grieving the Holy Spirit due to our sins (Eph 4:30).

Stop trying to earn what God has already given you freely.

Jeremiah 3:14 God says that he is MARRIED to the backslider...the one who knows him and is STILL doing wrong.

Girl this just goes to show you how GOOD our GOD is!!! It doesnt depend on me...cuz if it did then I would only have my salvation 2 days a week for an hour each day...cuz Im prone to do things I shouldnt cuz Im housed in this flesh, tempted by satan and my own lusts.

II cor 5:21 "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

We had to trade our guilt for his innocence...and now we are righteous...not due to our works but simply on the merit of Jesus' perfection.

Ever heard of double jeopardy? In the american court system you cannot be tried for the same crime twice...if youve been found innocent you can confess, have a video etc. but you still cannot be tried again for that crime. Same with salvation. Once our punishment of death was retracted...we cant be found newly guilty and no longer worthy of the gift (cause remember we werent worthy in the first place...we got off on somebody elses innocence). And that is why as satan is at the throne of GOd constantly accusing the brethren (us) before God night and day he is already defeated...cuz though his accusations are usually true...we've already been tried and found innocent because of the blood of the lamb (Revelations 12:10-11).


----------



## nathansgirl1908 (Aug 6, 2010)

*Re: Knowledge of Christ...but Lack of Belief and RelationshipU*



Poohbear said:


> Unity in Christian belief...NOT in what I believe, but in God's truth. But I know that is unrealistic and impossible according to YOU.


 
There is unity to a certain extent with the most basic truth: that He died to save us.  Beyond that, there are varying viewpoints.  But I agree with the person who said you are trying hard to justify your sin.  I don't know what you have done, but if you repented and stopped, then you need to let go.  The enemy wants us to feel condemnation in order to cause a rift between us and God.  




> I am NOT trying to get people to believe "continuing to sin doesn't make you a saved Christian". I was just trying to see if anyone can see where I was coming from with that concept.


Well, that is certainly what it seems like to me this time and the times you asked this question before.  



> Like Volver_Alma_Gitana said:* "**It's not correcting and swaying another to believe any side, it's reaffirming what one has been taught and follow."* That's how it's going to help ME. I want to see how other Christian's thought processes are when it comes to sin if we apparently can't stop sinning 'til we die.


And what makes you think haering about someone else's walk is going to help YOU?  You are a lazy Christian who wants to be told what to do.  You need to find the answers for yourself from HIM.  How many times do epople have to tell you this for you to get it?




> And no, no one has personally expressed an answer for doing the same sin more than once. That is a new question I asked in this particular thread. Thanks for answering it.


 
You've talked about this topic before.  




> And no one in that 'atheist' thread has told me that they want others to feel the way they do, at least that's not what I got out of the 'atheist' thread. I can just relate to some of the experiences expressed in that 'atheist' thread. I am just being real with my thoughts and feelings in the Christian forum and the Atheist/Free-Thinker thread. I'm not ashamed of how I feel so I'm going to express it either here or there.


 
The title of one thread is "rise of Heretics/atheists" or something along those lines.  The title alone indicates the mindset.  And yes, there are some atheists on here who HAVE made it clear that they want others to come over to the dark side.  And by sharing your thoughts with them, they are going to encourage you in a negative vein.  How would you expect to get encouragement or advice on a relationship with God when you are talking to people who refuse to believe in Him or acknowledge Him?  Does that even sound logical?




> You act as if you have everything together and have this truth that all Christians know and believe. Can you honestly say that everything is as clear as clean water with the Christian faith to you?


 I'm not acting as if I have everything together.  I'm just a regular Christian who recognizes that sin is going to happen and that our job is to repent, learn, and continue in our walk.  Truly walking with God is a struggle.  I have had very low points of anger and frustration with God, but I never once thought that this "God thing" didn't make sense.  And I never once thought that because I have sinned more than once that my salvation was destroyed forever.  Although I'm trying not to be, I'm finding myself annoyed by your threads along the same theme.  It doesn't matter what the topic is, if someone keeps asking the same questions over and over, and they have been given resources to help, after a time it gets wearisome.  And you realize that the person isn't really listening.  They don't really WANT help.  I'm starting to think you don't WANT help.  You just want someone to tell you what to do.


----------



## Poohbear (Aug 6, 2010)

*Re: Knowledge of Christ...but Lack of Belief and RelationshipU*



nathansgirl1908 said:


> There is unity to a certain extent with the most basic truth: that He died to save us. Beyond that, there are varying viewpoints. But I agree with the person who said you are trying hard to justify your sin. I don't know what you have done, but if you repented and stopped, then you need to let go. The enemy wants us to feel condemnation in order to cause a rift between us and God.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I'm a lazy Christian?  Good one!

How in the world am I justifying sin when I'm speaking against it? And even asking questions toward being against sin? And YOU as a truly converted saved and sanctified Christian have no answers for your sin except "God is going to forgive me". Get out of here with that crap!

And there MUST be a reason YOU are visiting that Atheist thread too... you're not fooling anyone.  YOU apparently been up in it more than me to see that someone wants people to come over to the dark side. I missed that post.

The atheist aren't encouraging me to do NOTHING against my will. I have a mind of my own and can think for myself. I just simply read and post.

YOU haven't offered any other help like the others in this thread. You haven't even shared one verse or scripture in the Bible, yet, you possess all the truth there is to know about God, Jesus, and the Bible. 

If you don't care for the questions I asked, then simply ignore them. I'm going to do what I want in order to get my mind and heart right on this subject. This faith issue is something very serious to me and has had a big influence on my life. Getting others point of view sheds light to a lot of things for me whether I agree, disagree, or neutral. It helps me get a bigger picture and better perspective of the world we live in.


----------



## LovingLady (Aug 6, 2010)

*Re: Knowledge of Christ...but Lack of Belief and RelationshipU*



Poohbear said:


> My purpose is to this... I wish there was some type of unity on this but maybe that's being overly optimistic...
> 
> I also feel like ALL sin is the same... habitually done against God. People do sins because they want to. I just don't see any other way around it.* I want to know how can a sin be non-habitual, unintentional?*  If you have it all together, how come you can't answer that question? Just telling me "you ask the same question SEVERAL times" doesn't help at all. Have you done a sin more than once as a truly converted Christian? If so, how do you feel about that in relation to your salvation?



A sin is unintentional if you don't know that what your doing is a sin. How could someone not know they are sinning? If they haven't been taught that what they are doing is a sin. 



topsyturvy86 said:


> PoohBear, you're going round in circles! Just focus on seeking God's face. Period. Leave the issue of sin alone for now. The sin I spoke about earlier was fornication. This should not deter you from really seeking God IF you want to. This particular sin is like a spirit and you can't stop it in your own strength. *Seek God* and ask Him to help you. Stop asking people these questions but ask God. You can't intellectualize the things of God. When you begin to do that, you miss the point.



Thank you. 



Poohbear said:


> *Whenever I've asked God a question, I do not get an audible or visual answer.*  The only possible answer I get is from the Bible. In regards to the sin of fornication, all I see in the Bible is that it says a fornicator cannot inherit the kingdom of God. I feel like that's for anyone who considers themselves a Christian or not. I do not see any verse that says, "if you believe in Jesus and fornicate, you still get to go to Heaven." And I don't see anything that says, "Jesus' death on the cross forgave past, present, and future sins."   I just think that a Christian that slips up and fornicates either habitually or non-habitually is not truly saved.



God is not going to give you a replay automatically. It doesn't work that way. He will revel the answer to you when the time is right. 



Poohbear said:


> The Amplified Bible added the word [habitual sin] in that verse.  The unaltered King James Version simple says "sin". I don't see how adding [habitual sin] in that verse makes it say anything about so-called "non-habitual" sin.
> 
> *In other words, if you are a converted Christian of holiness and you slip up and sin, that's habitual sin. It's not a mistake. A mistake is like if you get an answer incorrect on a test.* A habit is like if you can't stop biting your nails or playing in your hair.
> 
> I have been taught about how our sinful nature is at war with our spiritual nature. That Romans 7 verse about Paul has been thrown at me alot too. But this is another question that I've probably asked in a different way.... Can the Holy Spirit really help Christians stop sinning if the Christian's flesh cannot stop sinning?  It just sounds miserable to me. It makes me feel like sin is a crutch to keep religion in power.



If you are celibate for five years and you have premarital sex (once) afterward, that is a mistake not habitual sin. A habit is something that you are continually doing.  



topsyturvy86 said:


> Question 2. Learn to wait on the Lord for a response. I get the feeling you're trying hard to justify your sin. The greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind. If you really love Him, you will love the things He loves and hate the things He hates. The Holy spirit is there to help us. Falling in love takes time ... it's a process. It takes you knowing God and appreciating Him. Pooh Bear, again *seek God's face and leave the issue of sin alone for now*, it is distracting you from the things that really matter. I will be praying for you
> 
> Real Christianity is a relationship



Thank you. 



Poohbear said:


> *How in the world am I justifying sin when I'm speaking against it?*



In a previous post you told me that you were an adult and you asked me  why should you have to obey everything your fathers says. To me it seems  like you are trying to find a way not obey him, if God says to honor  our mother and father then we have to do it regardless of our age. 



Poohbear said:


> And there MUST be a reason YOU are visiting that Atheist thread too... you're not fooling anyone.  YOU apparently been up in it more than me to see that someone wants people to come over to the dark side. I missed that post.
> 
> The atheist aren't encouraging me to do NOTHING against my will. I have a mind of my own and can think for myself. *I just simply read and post.*



God asks us to love his people, not to socialize with everyone.


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## sidney (Aug 6, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> The Amplified Bible added the word [habitual sin] in that verse. The unaltered King James Version simple says "sin". I don't see how adding [habitual sin] in that verse makes it say anything about so-called "non-habitual" sin.
> 
> In other words, if you are a converted Christian of holiness and you slip up and sin, that's habitual sin. It's not a mistake. A mistake is like if you get an answer incorrect on a test. A habit is like if you can't stop biting your nails or playing in your hair.
> 
> I have been taught about how our sinful nature is at war with our spiritual nature. That Romans 7 verse about Paul has been thrown at me alot too. But this is another question that I've probably asked in a different way.... Can the Holy Spirit really help Christians stop sinning if the Christian's flesh cannot stop sinning? It just sounds miserable to me. It makes me feel like sin is a crutch to keep religion in power.


 
I think habitual sin is a pattern of behaviors, much like the hypothetical situation you posted.  If I decide to get angry at someone tommorrow, it's not a habit for me to do that.  It's not a part of my character.  It was a reaction because I did not control my response.  

My question is, do you feel that the numerous scriptures posted that say "no person is without sin" are irrelevant?  For example, many people have posted the scipture that says, "If anyone says he is without sin, he is a liar and the truth is not in him."  How do you feel about that scripture?  Also Paul said that he sometimes "did things he did not desire to do."  According to your logic, Paul was not saved.  Despite writing most of the new testament do you believe he was also not a true christian because he slipped up once in a while in non-habitual sin?    I think continual sin and habitual sin are the same thing in the Romans 7 verse.

Also, I think there is a lot of disbelief on your part Poohbear and I don't think any of the answers have satisfied you.  It's interesting that nathangirl brings up the atheist thread, because I have discussed the bible with atheists and they always feel unsatisfied with my responses, even after long and drawn out discussions. They are still at square one.   Not saying that you are an atheiest, but there you have a lot of issues with the fundamental issues regarding Jesus and salvation.  If I were you I would focus on whether or not I believed.   If you can fully accept Christ you will accept his word and you will be able to discern the truth in the scriptures a little better.


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## Poohbear (Aug 6, 2010)

*Re: Knowledge of Christ...but Lack of Belief and RelationshipU*



Abdijz said:


> A sin is unintentional if you don't know that what your doing is a sin. How could someone not know they are sinning? If they haven't been taught that what they are doing is a sin.
> 
> God is not going to give you a replay automatically. It doesn't work that way. He will revel the answer to you when the time is right.
> 
> ...


Good explanation on unintentional sin.

In the previous post, I was asking is it a sin if I tell my dad I can't do something he wants me to do? For example, let's say he wants me to do something when I already have made plans. Do I cancel my plans to do what he says?  What does it mean to obey your parents as an adult who no longer lives with your parents? It was a genuine question, not to justify my sin. I really want to know the answer. Just like recently, he wants me to continue to teach the children at church and I no longer want to because of what's going on with how I feel about my faith. Is that a sin to not do what he wants? Do I let my dad control my life until he dies? What happens if I get married or something? Am I still under my father's rule? 

I do love his people. Socializing is a part of showing love. When you say 'everyone', are you talking about non-believers? If so, where does God say "not to socialize with everyone?" I know the bible says not to marry unequal yoke and the bible says a companion of fools suffers harm, but I'm not doing none of that with anyone here on LHCF.  I just read and comment in random threads like everyone else here. The bible also says to love everyone, even your enemies, but I don't see anyone here as an enemy whether I disagree with them or not. But I guess it looks like I shouldn't be on the LHCF alotgether since I don't keep track of whose a believer and whose not on here. erplexed


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## nathansgirl1908 (Aug 6, 2010)

Poohbear while I recognize that misery loves company, don't put me in your category.  First of all the title of that thread is self explanatory.  One doesn't have to read it to know what's up.  Second, many of th atheist I am referring to have made comments in OTHER threads demonstrating their desire to get others to join them in their foolishness


And no, I have not quoted scripture thus far. There is no point. You have a Bible. Read it.  It doesn't do any good to post scriptures you aren't paying attention to.  And how do I know you aren't paying attention?  Because some scriptures posted have provided the answers to some of your questions, yet you are still whining.

Furthermore if you have a mind of your own then you would not be having these issues. You are double-minded resulting in instability.  

You will only get the peace you need and desire when you seek Him. I've said that numerous times yet you claim I'm not "helping.". The fact that you don't see that as helping tells me everything I need to know.  


Deuces.


----------



## Jynlnd13 (Aug 6, 2010)

*Re: Knowledge of Christ...but Lack of Belief and RelationshipU*



nathansgirl1908 said:


> And what makes you think haering about someone else's walk is going to help YOU? You are a lazy Christian who wants to be told what to do. You need to find the answers for yourself from HIM. How many times do epople have to tell you this for you to get it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Wow...calling someone a lazy Christian is NOT helping in anyway. Hearing about someone's walk WILL help, how do you think people who are confused about God come to him? They seek him and they seek others who are in Christ for THEIR testimony about their walk with Christ, I'm sorry but you are being over the top calling her a lazy Christian. She is struggling right now with what she believes and now is not the time to attack and be negative, it's to be understanding and helpful.

Like I said before, everyone is different. Everyones relationship with God is different. Maybe Poohbear is playing hardball because she really wants what people are saying to be concrete. Like I said this is a struggle for her, she started this thread to hear what others had to say about it. Clearly she wantes help, because she has reached out and asked. What she decides to do it her choice. But degrading is not the answer, or Christ like.


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## Poohbear (Aug 6, 2010)

sidney said:


> I think habitual sin is a pattern of behaviors, much like the hypothetical situation you posted. If I decide to get angry at someone tommorrow, it's not a habit for me to do that. It's not a part of my character. It was a reaction because I did not control my response.
> 
> My question is, do you feel that the numerous scriptures posted that say "no person is without sin" are irrelevant?* For example, many people have posted the scipture that says, "If anyone says he is without sin, he is a liar and the truth is not in him." How do you feel about that scripture?* Also Paul said that he sometimes "did things he did not desire to do." According to your logic, Paul was not saved. Despite writing most of the new testament do you believe he was also not a true christian because he slipped up once in a while in non-habitual sin? I think continual sin and habitual sin are the same thing in the Romans 7 verse.
> 
> Also, I think there is a lot of disbelief on your part Poohbear and I don't think any of the answers have satisfied you. It's interesting that nathangirl brings up the atheist thread, because I have discussed the bible with atheists and they always feel unsatisfied with my responses, even after long and drawn out discussions. They are still at square one. Not saying that you are an atheiest, but there you have a lot of issues with the fundamental issues regarding Jesus and salvation. If I were you I would focus on whether or not I believed. If you can fully accept Christ you will accept his word and you will be able to discern the truth in the scriptures a little better.


 This is what I think of the bolded scripture... I feel like it's true for people who actually do commit sin and then go around saying they are without sin. I feel like this scripture doesn't apply to people who say they don't sin when they really do not sin. Does that make sense?

And about Paul, I feel like he was talking about when he was a sinner. He mentioned how he was the chief of sinners and he did things he didn't want to do, and didn't do things he should do.

Thanks for your honesty, but maybe I am an atheist right now based on what I've been asking, however, it has nothing to do with the atheist thread. I've been having these feelings WAY BEFORE that thread was even created. I ask these questions to get more than one answer from different people to see where different people are coming from. But I guess I'll go discern the truth on my own. Thanks for your posts. I do appreciate them.


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## Poohbear (Aug 6, 2010)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> Poohbear while I recognize that misery loves company, don't put me in your category. First of all the title of that thread is self explanatory. One doesn't have to read it to know what's up. Second, many of th atheist I am referring to have made comments in OTHER threads demonstrating their desire to get others to join them in their foolishness
> 
> 
> And no, I have not quoted scripture thus far. There is no point. You have a Bible. Read it. It doesn't do any good to post scriptures you aren't paying attention to. And how do I know you aren't paying attention? Because some scriptures posted have provided the answers to some of your questions, yet you are still whining.
> ...


"Seek Him"...

That's the recurring theme...

That's what most Christians say but can't explain what that means... Gotta love them Christian cliches' and common phrases...

Like I said, looks like you've been up in them atheists thread more than me... I was not aware of what atheist say in other threads... shows how much of a Christian YOU are... muddling in the ponds with non-believers, "ouuuu, God's gonna punish you! 

And I'm not putting you in the category of "misery loves company". If I'm this miserable person, apparently you do like misery with the way you have been posting... 

Does it make yourself feel better now that you have called me a double-minded unstable lazy Christian? Do you think that makes me feel like I want to jump back on board with the truly saved and converted Christians like YOU? Plleeeaaasse... 

If you saw what the title of thread, saw it was me who created it, and knew what it was going to be about... then why even chime in with YOUR whining and complaining about me? (and please don't answer that question, ha!)

Here's another cliche for ya while you hold up your deuces... 

God bless you and keep you sister in Christ.


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## Sharpened (Aug 6, 2010)

> *Ephesians 6:1-4 *Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Honor your father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise. That it may be well with you, and you may live long on the earth.
> 
> And, _you fathers, provoke not your children to wrath_: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
> 
> *Colossians 3:21* Fathers, provoke not your children, that they be not discouraged.


She is an adult now and is responsible for her relationship with Our Father. If her father is the cause of this strife of her heart, she needs a breather from him so she can sort this out with her true Father. Obey the Lord first, always!

To seek the Lord is to pray in private and honest humility for His presence, His answer to the questions we have. The book of Psalms is full of prayers like this.


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## Guitarhero (Aug 6, 2010)

Actually, that's a very profound question...what does it mean to follow Christ?  I'm going to answer this for myself.  It's God's revelation to man first through the 10 Commandments and later through the Messiah, Jesus, the completeness.  It's measuring myself against God's revelation daily and correcting where I need to.  It's coming back after failures.  It's the Nicene Creed.  It's concrete and recited weekly (if not daily).  And seriously, this is a revelation in and of itself as to what it is for me...simply following the NC and the 10 Commandments through Jesus the Messiah.  I've never put it so succinctly before, never had to.  And your question is truly profound because it causes each of us to do just that...what does it truly mean, step-by-step?  

I realize that there are many other personal explanations but for me, it's devoid of any kind of emotionalism at all...it's what I believe through those aforementioned.  I'm rather surprised, actually, that I've condensed it thusly.


http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm
http://www.beginningcatholic.com/catholic-nicene-creed.html


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## sidney (Aug 6, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> This is what I think of the bolded scripture... I feel like it's true for people who actually do commit sin and then go around saying they are without sin. I feel like this scripture doesn't apply to people who say they don't sin when they really do not sin. Does that make sense?
> 
> And about Paul, I feel like he was talking about when he was a sinner. He mentioned how he was the chief of sinners and he did things he didn't want to do, and didn't do things he should do.
> 
> Thanks for your honesty, but maybe I am an atheist right now based on what I've been asking, however, it has nothing to do with the atheist thread. I've been having these feelings WAY BEFORE that thread was even created. I ask these questions to get more than one answer from different people to see where different people are coming from. But I guess I'll go discern the truth on my own. Thanks for your posts. I do appreciate them.


 

One thing I've learned to do when studying the bible is focus on the language that is used. 

1. Notice, the verse in Romans 7 says says, "*if ANYONE says he is without sin he is a liar.*"  Anyone is all inclusive.  It is absolutist language, so than means everyone  including christians. 

2. Another related verse: John 1:8
*If we say we have no sin, we are fooling ourselves, and the truth is not in us. But if we confess our sins, he will forgive our sins, because we can trust God to do what is right. He will cleanse us from all the wrongs we have done. 1If we say we have not sinned, we make God a liar, and we do not accept God's teaching*

Now look at the language again, he says *"we*"...who is this person saying we?  John said, that.  John is a christian and he admitted he is a sinner.  

 3. Further on the language tid bit, this is what Paul wrote.  If you notice, it is in the present tense.  The last verse he says it is the "sin living in him."  Notice he did not say that it is the sin, that ONCE lived in him.  He did not say, I USED to do what I didn't want to do.  Paul was a  straight up sinner (non-habitual of course).    

*“We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.  As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.  I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. ** For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.  For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.  Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.”*

I know you are familiar with the many of the other scriptures so here are further questions.  If christians do not sin, why is his grace and mercy new every morning? We are perfect, so what do we need that for? Also, why would the bible call our righteous "as filthy rags?"  Why would Paul tell the  _church people_ to confess their sins to one another, and pray for eachother? (James 5:16)  And then Jesus himself the disciples how to pray.....why did the Lord's prayer include "Forgive us for our trespasses?"  

I hope these answer your questions but I'm not sure how this will help you with the unbelief you are dealing with.  Pray that God "help thou unbelief" Pray that he sends some people to encourage you in the faith.  The fact that you are struggling with this, shows that deep down you really know the truth and you do not want to let go of God.  Many atheists admit there  is a process to disown the concept of Jesus and christianity.  I think it's because it requires deliberate self-deception.  Choose God.  And if you aren't 100% convinced that he is, atleast be able to say you did everything you could to seek him. People keep telling you to "seek him" because seeking him means searching until you find him. Since you like Paul Washer I'm posting this.  It may help you.  It tells how he sought the Lord for himself.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LgnbOMZ4Vw


P.S.  About your dad....You  are to ask God what he wants you to do with your life.  Your father, is not your heavily father.  Consider what your parents say and try to listen and obey their wisdom, but you are an adult.  You have to find God for yourself and listen to what ministry God wants to do.  As you can not hear from God right now, I am certain that your dad is not telling you anything that will harm you.


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## Guitarhero (Aug 6, 2010)

*Re: Knowledge of Christ...but Lack of Belief and RelationshipU*



Poohbear said:


> . Can you honestly say that everything is as clear as clean water with the Christian faith to you?



I often feel the same way about explanation of things especially when simplistic answers are given.  That's when I was given the blessing of sources who studied christian and Jewish mysticism, relating these mundane things in the flesh to the realities of the spirit and beyond.  There are various levels of understanding of anything in scripture.


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## Guitarhero (Aug 6, 2010)

Nymphe said:


> She is an adult now and is responsible for her relationship with Our Father. If her father is the cause of this strife of her heart, she needs a breather from him so she can sort this out with her true Father. Obey the Lord first, always!
> 
> To seek the Lord is to pray in private and honest humility for His presence, His answer to the questions we have. The book of Psalms is full of prayers like this.



*.......AMEIN!!!!*


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## Poohbear (Aug 6, 2010)

sidney said:


> One thing I've learned to do when studying the bible is focus on the language that is used.
> 
> 1. Notice, the verse in Romans 7 says says, "*if ANYONE says he is without sin he is a liar.*" Anyone is all inclusive. It is absolutist language, so than means everyone including christians.
> 
> ...


Thanks sidney but no where in Romans 7 says "*if ANYONE says he is without sin he is a liar.*"

Just the verse in 1 John 1:8,10 says this but uses "if we" not "if anyone"...but I guess it's the same since "we" includes onself and others while "anyone" includes any person at all.

But yeah, Paul did speak in present tense. However, he was NOT condoning sin nor saying that it's okay to do things you don't want to do.

"The fact that you are struggling with this, shows that deep down you really know the truth and you do not want to let go of God."

Yes. I used to be that Christian that had no doubt in my mind about God, Jesus, and the bible. As I got older and experienced more things in life, I have changed, especially after my father became a pastor back in 2005. Maybe another spirit or soul has come over me at different turning points in my life. I have gone through a lot of changes over the past few years and have finally gotten into a more stable condition career-wise and just having my own place and own things now. I'm a relatively good person, but my faith has taken a downward spiral from the questions I have about sin, repentance, and salvation... all after meeting this lady who said she and her husband and most people at her church do not sin anymore.


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## aribell (Aug 6, 2010)

Admittedly, I've only read the last page or so of this thread, but thought I'd go see what the op actually asked. Answers/thoughts in purple. 

For several years, I've attended church every Sunday and taught children the Bible. _That's a great thing. It means that you have a firm foundation that you can return to. It may be confusing now, but know that you do already know the answers. _However, I have been going through periods of unbelief and diminishing faith. I am confused about what to believe anymore. _If you want to believe, believe what God's word says. Being confused about what God's word *means *is different than being confused about *whether *you believe it. This is why James says that God will give wisdom to those who need it, because we don't always understand. But the person seeking understanding must first believe His word. Think about it, if you're not sure whether someone is lying to you or not, it won't matter what answer comes out of their mouth...you're going to be unsure of whether they're speaking the truth. Question for thought: Regarding the Bible, is it that you don't understand what it says, or you don't believe that it's trustworthy? _The more and more I taught, the less and less sense the Bible made to me. _Actually, it's a good thing to recognize that you don't really understand what the Bible is saying and how it all can be true. What matters is how you deal with it. _It's like I have the knowledge, but slowly lost faith. I feel like good and bad things happen out of mere coincidence, not because of God's mighty power. 

During church services, I have never really felt the spirit or felt like I wanted to jump up and down and clap and sing aloud like a lot of people I see in different churches. _There are many denominations around the world in which jumping up and down and clapping would be considered out of order in church, or odd at least. Try not to allow your experience in one small corner of Christendom to define the whole of it. _Then the pastor or a minister will try to say things in the pulpit like "If you don't get up and praise God, something's wrong with you" and other statements along that line. _Such a pastor is being emotionally manipulative. _Am I lacking the Spirit if I'm mainly quiet during service? _If you want to know whether the Spirit is present in your life, consider whether you bear the fruit of the Spirit as defined in Galatians: love, joy, peace, goodness, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness, patience, self-control. The Bible tells us how the Spirit works and moves in our lives, and I'm pretty sure that jumping up and down was never given as the definition of a Spirit-filled Christian...Also, excessive emphasis on emotionalism in worship can be very deceiving. _

But anyway, here are the main questions I have been wondering....

How do you know who you are in Christ? _Question for you: Does God keep His promises?_

How do you know you believe in Christ? _Question for you: Did Jesus die on the Cross for your sins?_

How do you know that you have a relationship with God? _Eh..."relationship with God" language is tricky. The question is, "In His word, who does God say He is to you?"_

How do you know that Christ really died on the cross for the punishment of our sins?

_If you read what God's word says, it's a fact. If your question is about historical fact, _Lee Strobel's _The Case for Christ_ is an easy read.


Why is Christ dying on the cross so significant for our lives today? _What is the difference between today and 2000 years ago? _Would we really be dying left and right when we sin against God if Jesus had not died? _I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you thinking about the difference between God's wrath shown in the Old Testament and today? There are stories of God pouring out judgment at specific points in time in the Old Testament, but those were specific events, not how everyone at every point in time experienced God. So, the Lord destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah, but certainly that city was not the only one that was unrighteous...yet we have no record of God destroying them. The stories we have in the Bible reflect specific instances in which God made Himself specially known to mankind--through a chosen people, through chosen leaders, etc. God is still present and acting today, but it was never the case that God always immediately judged sin. Most were not judged immediately. And we know this also because in the Psalms, David complains about wicked men who get away with their evil deeds. And Proverbs tells us not to envy wicked men, and Ecclesiasties also complains that righteous men may not be rewarded, but fools reign as kings. _

It's so easy to say you "must confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord and Savior", but how do you know that you believe in your heart? _Hmm...it seems that you're asking about assurance. __An excellent theologian writes about this question which plagues Christians' hearts, and says: _



> —
> A favorite theme of Luther's, who frequently uses Paul's saying, "Let God
> be true and every man a liar," (Romans 3:4) as an admonition to put faith in no word but God's. (Of course the logic of Luther's faith falls apart if Christ is not God).
> 
> ...


 
_Faith is vital, but you do not have to have assurance that you believe to have faith. Yes, it's a subtle difference. Faith is a constant looking at Christ, not a constant looking at oneself. A lot of people convince themselves that they believe, and all they're looking at are their own thoughts and feelings. Our thoughts and feelings deceive, even when they are positive. God does not. Remember, let _*God* _be true and every man a liar._



> *To believe Christ's word is to be uninterested in the fact that I believe but captivated by what Christ has to say to *
> *me.* Even apart from its character as word of address, the Gospel is good news for me *because it is Christ's story, not mine*. To say it is not my story means, not that it has nothing to do with me,
> but that* it is about what Christ does for me rather than what I do for Christ*. The Law tells me what to do; the Gospel tells me what Christ does. So "Christ died for you" is a way of stating the Gospel, whereas "I believe in Christ" is not. *I appear in Christ's story as object, not subject not *
> *the doer but the one on the receiving end of the good things Christ has done.* Hence when the Gospel is properly preached the pronoun that refers to me is the object rather than the subject of
> active verbs. *If the Gospel alone is the proper object of faith, then the fact that I am the object of Christ's love and redemption is part of the content of faith, whereas an awareness that I believe is not.*


 
_A little upthread I wrote about what I perceived to be God's words to me: "You were bought at a price and belong to me." At that point in time, did I believe? Who could say? I had told the Lord explicitly that I was not going to follow Him anymore. But the point wasn't what I was thinking or feeling about God at the moment. It was wholly about what He said about me. The point is, "What does God's word say?" It says, Poohbear, that Christ died for your sins. That is the truth of the matter...and its truth doesn't change depending on you. That's great news! _


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## aribell (Aug 6, 2010)

It's so easy to say you must have a relationship with God. _I don't think the Bible ever says "You must have a relationship with God." Everyone is in some kind of relation to God. But which is it? Disciple? As in, "I am a follower of Christ." Rebel? As in, "He is in rebellion against God." Other?_ But how do you have a relationship with God when God is supposedly a spirit? _You are also spiritual._ Just praying and reading the Bible and living like Christ as much as possible?  _I know we use "relationship with God" a lot, and it's not the worst thing.  But I think that we infuse our own thoughts about relationships into that phrase and it can lead us astray in our thinking.  To us, being in a relationship with someone is about spending time with them, and usually it revolves around all the positive feelings we associate with feeling close to someone.  The Spirit brings deep joy and other positive things into our lives, so I would not say that walking with God is drudgery.  However, I'll ask this:  When Jonah was in the belly of the whale, what was his 'relationship' with God?  When Peter was denying Jesus in the Garden, what was his 'relationship' with God?  If we keep our eyes on ourselves, our thoughts about ourselves, our feelings about ourselves and God, we'll think that He has abandoned us every time we mess up.  We will only see ourselves, and be unable to see the God who is unchanging, and His unchanging word._ 

It's easy to say "all Scripture is God-breathed" or the inspired Word of God, but how do you know that for the fact WITHOUT reading 2 Timothy 3:16? 

_ What in this world do we know "for a fact"? We believe that George Washington was the first president of the United States, and yet, do you know that "for a fact"? And what is that "fact" based on? 

The Bible is an oral tradition, meaning that millenia ago, something happened in Israel, something major. And the word spread. And peope kept telling other people what happened. And people told other people, this is how to Christ works, this is how the Spirit moves. And 2000 years later, people are still bearing witness to the testimony that the first believers had. Why do I believe what Paul said? Because the truth of his words has always borne true in my life. He met Jesus and so did I. I continue to believe God's word, as it continues to be true._


Why should I accept the statement "Christians will never stop sinning" but yet, people say "not everyone who proclaims to be Christian isn't saved or going to heaven because of how they live"? How are they living that's so different than you who still commit sin?

_Again, you are battling what other Christians are saying about God. Focus more on what God's word says for itself. The Bible says that not everyone who approaches the Lord at the judgment will enter His Kingdom, and it will be because He "never knew them." They were not His disciples. They did not follow Him. Think about it. You can set out on a course to climb a mountain, and still make mistakes along the way. But you are still following that course. You could also choose to completely ignore the course and do your own thing. The difference between Christians who sin and unbelievers is that Christians are following the path that Jesus laid out and others are walking wherever their own heart takes them._

_ It is setting one's heart to follow Christ which enables God to convict of sin. Everyone has a conscience, but not everyone experiences conviction of sin. If you are on God's course, then He will start convicting you of sin. But He never said that faith would make us instantaneously perfect. 

Also, it's pointless to judge God's word based on other people's claims to be a Christian. Didn't Jesus say that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will enter the Kingdom? Well, we can't know whether someone professing to be a Christian actually is one or not. So judging the content of their lives won't necessarily tell you anything about how God operates. Only reading His word will._


Why aren't Christians more united? _Sin._ Why are there two sides to every fundamental issue of the Bible? (ie. women preachers, faith vs works for salvation, baptism, trinity, big sins vs little sins, calvinism vs arminianism, sinless perfection vs sinning Christians, and more? Do I have to choose sides?


_There aren't two sides, there's only the truth.  Whether you or I or anyone else has the answer, doesn't mean that God doesn't.  You aren't responsible for figuring out all the mysteries of God's word. You're only responsible for step by step growing in faith and abiding why what is presented as true. Women preachers are not a fundamental issue, nor is calvinism v. arminianism, nor is mortal/venial sins. Those are denominational issues that have little to nothing to do with Christ's work for you on the Cross. _

 Can I go to Hell for not tithing 10% of my GROSS income?

_Those who end up in hell are those who reject Christ as Lord and Savior. _

 Can I go to Hell for not participating in ALL church ministries and not attending a physical church building EVERY Sunday to worship God?


_Those who end up in hell are those who reject Christ as Lord and Savior. Not to be repetitive, but what does God's word say? Does it say that you have to participate in all church ministries? Doesn't Jesus tell you what He expects of you? Don't the epistles describe what a holy life looks like?_

That's all the questions I have for now.


_Poohbear, while I do believe that you know more answers than you realize, you seem to make a lot of assumptions about the faith that have more to do with bad church experiences than what God's word actually says. Perhaps finding a place to "re-learn" the faith in a healthy way would be beneficial to you. Any time that I did not directly answer the question, it is not because I"m trying to dodge your question, but rather because the question as stated doesn't have an answer._


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## LovingLady (Aug 6, 2010)

*Re: Knowledge of Christ...but Lack of Belief and RelationshipU*



Poohbear said:


> Good explanation on unintentional sin.
> 
> In the previous post, I was asking is it a sin if I tell my dad I can't do something he wants me to do? For example, let's say he wants me to do something when I already have made plans. Do I cancel my plans to do what he says?  What does it mean to obey your parents as an adult who no longer lives with your parents? It was a genuine question, not to justify my sin. I really want to know the answer. Just like recently, he wants me to continue to teach the children at church and I no longer want to because of what's going on with how I feel about my faith. Is that a sin to not do what he wants? Do I let my dad control my life until he dies? What happens if I get married or something? Am I still under my father's rule?



Sorry for the misunderstanding. I am going to assume your dad doesn't know about how you feel. I want you to be very honest with your father. Tell him that you don't feel comfortable/you don't think it is right to teach the children at church because of where you are in your faith. I agree with you on this. Teaching children about God when you are not quite there yet is not fare to them.  

When I mean obey, I am referring to doing something that they asked you to do. There are certain activities that you can not avoid attending (school, work, vacation, etc.). In cases like this I would ask the parent if I could do what they wanted before or after my event, and how much of an importance is it. I heard that this guy asked another Christian to help his mom out with something because he wasn't able to do it, that was sweet. Other events (going to the beach, hanging out, etc.) can be canceled.  



Poohbear said:


> I do love his people. Socializing is a part of showing love. When you say 'everyone', are you talking about non-believers? If so, where does God say "not to socialize with everyone?" I know the bible says not to marry unequal yoke and the bible says a companion of fools suffers harm, but I'm not doing none of that with anyone here on LHCF.  I just read and comment in random threads like everyone else here. The bible also says to love everyone, even your enemies, but I don't see anyone here as an enemy whether I disagree with them or not. But I guess it looks like I shouldn't be on the LHCF alotgether since I don't keep track of whose a believer and whose not on here. erplexed



I am sorry that I wasn't clear about how I was defining socializing. Lets say that I am talking to someone after class. Her friend comes along (non-believer) and I am introduced to her. Now, all three of us are talking. Once the conversation gets inappropriate (cursing, sexually suggestive, etc.) I excuse myself. I run into the third girl a few days later and we talk for a short time. She asks me if I want to go to see a movie with her. My answer is no. Just like in a relationship, when you spend increasing amounts of time with a non-believer (or anyone for that matter) you start to mirror each others personality. More then likely the non-believer would pull you into sinful activities. 

You don't have to leave .


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## Poohbear (Aug 6, 2010)

nicola.kirwan said:


> It's so easy to say you "must confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord and Savior", but how do you know that you believe in your heart? _Hmm...it seems that you're asking about assurance. __An excellent theologian writes about this question which plagues Christians' hearts, and says: _
> 
> A favorite theme of Luther's, who frequently uses Paul's saying, "Let God
> be true and every man a liar," (Romans 3:4) as an admonition to put faith in no word but God's. (Of course the logic of Luther's faith falls apart if Christ is not God).
> ...


Oh wow!!! The part you said about Luther, Romans 3:4, and faith really open my eyes. It actually brought back memories about how I felt when I was younger. When I was younger, I did not try to find assurance of my faith. Now that I'm older, that's what I've been doing, trying to find assurance of my faith when I don't need to. I'm trying to find ways to convince myself to believe and I'm most definitely reflecting on my thoughts and feelings.


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## MSee (Aug 7, 2010)

Nymphe said:


> She is an adult now and is responsible for her relationship with Our Father. If her father is the cause of this strife of her heart, she needs a breather from him so she can sort this out with her true Father. Obey the Lord first, always!
> 
> To seek the Lord is to pray in private and honest humility for His presence, His answer to the questions we have. The book of Psalms is full of prayers like this.


 
When I read the opening questions my thought was someone in spiritual authority must have wounded Pooh terribly. Then I remembered the post about her dad. This may not be your reason but I have had friends who would now have nothing to do with God, Christ, or anything Christian because of their relationship with their Christian parents.

Pooh I may not be able to offer you answers although I have personally settled those issue in my heart. However, I think in some ways I may understand where you are coming from. It was not too long ago I told my DH that if I hadn't known God for myself I would have walked away from Christianity and become an atheist. I'm not ashamed for saying that because the things I have been experiencing at the hands of other Christians around me have left me shaken. Right now I feel like David must have felt when he was on the run from Saul, who should have been his mentor and I have had to ask God some serious questions. 

There are 3 books I've read that helped me some and again I must note they were targeted for me, my situation and how I was dealing with it so they may not be of use to you but I will note them to make a point. They were 'Breaking Christian Curses', 'Enemy access Denied' and the one I'm presently reading, 'The Bait of Satan'. The first showed me that I was not way off in discerning that some serious evil was going on among so called believers that was destroying lives and had nothing to do with God and His will for His people. Getting away from that church was necessary but had serious repercussions. There is a brand of deception which indeed reminds me of the word that says in 

_Ezekiel 13:22 Because you disheartened the the righteous with your lies, when I had brought them no grief and because you encouraged the wicked not to turn from their evil ways and so to save their lives._

_Romans 1: 21-22 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, neither were they thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools._

_Verse 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen._

_Verse 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things that are not convenient._

_1 Timothy 4: 1-2 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared with a hot iron._

The second book reminded me of how crucial and powerful obedience to God is. Sometimes we 'judge' God according to man's standard and what we have heard and not necessarily what He has said about Himself and shown us through scripture. I did some serious self examination. It took facing one of the biggest stumbling block to being a victorious, Christ lead individual and that is pride. You see I could check off my list of 'works'. How could I forget my fruits, the testimonies of healing from my prayers, the deliverance during my singing, the enlightenment from my exhortations, leading others to Christ and the list goes on and on, but some of those same individuals who could attest to those happenings would stone me to death today, if it was allowed (they use their tongues instead). So at this time of my life all that is now just lost to me (Thankfully, not to God). Thankfully I can now say good works does not make me anymore a Christian than having to live for Christ when others are slandering you so much that even those who should know you are shying away from you. I was genuine, didn't want to do anything unless I felt I was clean (not in any known sin), quick to repent, took the fall for others even to maintain unity in the 'body'. Now the body has proverbially dismembered me because I stood for truth against those who should have been teaching me truth. If it was a light matter I would have not stood out but even the little I said was enough. But I believe God sees and I choose to obey His expectations of me. There are many who took the fall for righteousness even to the point of death, but some saw great deliverances in God's timing. The key was obedience to God and to obey meant they had to believe even when He seemed distant and power looked like it was in the hands of men. 

The third is exposing me to the trap of offense and how the devil uses it to deceive if it was possible even the very elect. Thankfully I have good knowledge of the scripture and also a review on Amazon helped prepare me for some aspects of this book that can keep a person in a wrong Church relationship. However the author's scriptural explanation of how offense can destroy or relationship with God and even abort His purpose for us, not by what anyone does or says to us but by our response, is very profound. The Israelites could have gotten out of the wilderness earlier if they hadn't got offended by their perceived disadvantage. What would have happened to Joseph if he had started questioning God's existence? Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ but ourselves when we choose not to believe.

Hebrews 3: 7-19
7So, as the Holy Spirit says: 
"Today, if you hear his voice, 
8do not harden your hearts 
as you did in the rebellion, 
during the time of testing in the desert, 
9where your fathers tested and tried me 
and for forty years saw what I did. 
10That is why I was angry with that generation, 
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray, 
and they have not known my ways.' 
11So I declared on oath in my anger, 
'They shall never enter my rest.' "[a] 

12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said: 
"Today, if you hear his voice, 
do not harden your hearts 
as you did in the rebellion."[b] 16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[c]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Hebrews 11:6
*6*And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.


I'm going through a time of healing during which things are still popping up and I do lack confidence addressing another person's issue while speaking from a painful place. However, Pooh after all that I wrote above the only thing I can say is what have been alluded to in many posts, only you can choose to believe and take God at His word by faith and as cliché as this may sound, I know He will step in and deal with the real issue behind your questions. There are just somethings about us only He alone knows. Right now He is revealing things about me in my situation that if He was trying to show me last year this time, I would have never took notice .

Thank you Pooh, I can assure you one thing, this thread is very necessary and just by reading some of the other post I'm sure many of us have been strengthened. I can't remember individual names but thanks to those of you who responded. I've been blessed. 

Be blessed


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## Poohbear (Aug 7, 2010)

My responses are in blue...


nicola.kirwan said:


> _Answers/thoughts in purple._
> 
> For several years, I've attended church every Sunday and taught children the Bible. _That's a great thing. It means that you have a firm foundation that you can return to. It may be confusing now, but know that you do already know the answers. _During these years of attending church and teaching children, I felt somewhat like a robot going through the motions, just doing it not because God led me to do it, but because of my father. That's why I want to step back and check my motives as well as see what God wants me to do. Right now, I can definitely see that He wants some time with me. I feel like this thread is helping no matter how some of you may think it's not. Seeing the variations in what has been taught and what is believed by each individual person gives me the reassurance that no one really knows except for God.
> 
> ...


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## Poohbear (Aug 7, 2010)

My responses are in navy...


nicola.kirwan said:


> It's so easy to say you must have a relationship with God. _I don't think the Bible ever says "You must have a relationship with God." Everyone is in some kind of relation to God. But which is it? Disciple? As in, "I am a follower of Christ." Rebel? As in, "He is in rebellion against God." Other?_
> But how do you have a relationship with God when God is supposedly a spirit? _You are also spiritual._ Just praying and reading the Bible and living like Christ as much as possible? _I know we use "relationship with God" a lot, and it's not the worst thing. But I think that we infuse our own thoughts about relationships into that phrase and it can lead us astray in our thinking. To us, being in a relationship with someone is about spending time with them, and usually it revolves around all the positive feelings we associate with feeling close to someone. The Spirit brings deep joy and other positive things into our lives, so I would not say that walking with God is drudgery. However, I'll ask this: When Jonah was in the belly of the whale, what was his 'relationship' with God? When Peter was denying Jesus in the Garden, what was his 'relationship' with God? If we keep our eyes on ourselves, our thoughts about ourselves, our feelings about ourselves and God, we'll think that He has abandoned us every time we mess up. We will only see ourselves, and be unable to see the God who is unchanging, and His unchanging word._
> You know what? You're right. It doesn't, and like I said earlier, that phrase "relationship with God" is thrown around alot. I think a better way to put it is to ponder what is my relationship "to" God.  I'm not sure what my relation to God is right now. Before, I considered myself a disciple, but with these doubts, I'm not sure if I can still consider myself that.  All I know is that I desire to live holy and right. I'm not sure what Jonah or Peter's relationship to God was at those specific points in their lives. I would say some type of rebel but no matter what, God was still with them.
> 
> ...


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## Poohbear (Aug 7, 2010)

*Re: Knowledge of Christ...but Lack of Belief and RelationshipU*



Abdijz said:


> Sorry for the misunderstanding. I am going to assume your dad doesn't know about how you feel. I want you to be very honest with your father. Tell him that you don't feel comfortable/you don't think it is right to teach the children at church because of where you are in your faith. I agree with you on this. Teaching children about God when you are not quite there yet is not fare to them.
> 
> When I mean obey, I am referring to doing something that they asked you to do. There are certain activities that you can not avoid attending (school, work, vacation, etc.). In cases like this I would ask the parent if I could do what they wanted before or after my event, and how much of an importance is it. I heard that this guy asked another Christian to help his mom out with something because he wasn't able to do it, that was sweet. Other events (going to the beach, hanging out, etc.) can be canceled.


Last week, I told him how I felt. I sent him this email last Wednesday:
_"It's not just needing a break from teaching...I just do not feel comfortable teaching anymore due to my diminishing faith. When I teach, all I do is use the commentary in the Life Applications Bible to explain certain verses. I seriously do not know what to believe anymore when it comes to the Bible and Christian beliefs. I do not want to be teaching a group of people on something I may not necessarily believe anymore. It has been bothering me for quite sometime... off and on since 2008. I personally have never really felt the spirit or presence of Jesus in my life. When I accepted Christ and got baptized at 8 years old, it was because if you don't believe in Jesus, you will go to Hell... a concept that most children are taught.  I feel like there is a God as in the Creator of this world, but I'm just not sure about everything else that's in the Bible as well as all the concepts and fundamentals that different denominations debate over."_

By the way, I believing in helping my parents. I don't mind that if they ask. It's just that factor of control with my dad. My mother is cool... my dad is a whole different story.



Abdijz said:


> I am sorry that I wasn't clear about how I was defining socializing. Lets say that I am talking to someone after class. Her friend comes along (non-believer) and I am introduced to her. Now, all three of us are talking. Once the conversation gets inappropriate (cursing, sexually suggestive, etc.) I excuse myself. I run into the third girl a few days later and we talk for a short time. She asks me if I want to go to see a movie with her. My answer is no. Just like in a relationship, when you spend increasing amounts of time with a non-believer (or anyone for that matter) you start to mirror each others personality. More then likely the non-believer would pull you into sinful activities.
> 
> You don't have to leave .


 No need for apology. You did nothing wrong.  My thing is this... I'm the type of person that is not influence by others to do sinful activities or mirror after people. I'm pretty much myself around everyone (which is usually quiet and reserved). I do things because I want to, not because of what others are doing, whether they are a Christian or not. I think that's why I responded the way I did to your post about socializing with other people. Right now, I don't have any unbelievers that I hang with, but if I was in that predicament and they were engaging in a sinful activity, I wouldn't be participating in it.


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## Poohbear (Aug 7, 2010)

Nymphe said:


> She is an adult now and is responsible for her relationship with Our Father. If her father is the cause of this strife of her heart, she needs a breather from him so she can sort this out with her true Father. Obey the Lord first, always!
> 
> To seek the Lord is to pray in private and honest humility for His presence, His answer to the questions we have. The book of Psalms is full of prayers like this.


Thank you for saying this.

My father has caused a lot of strife... psychologically and spiritually. He feels like if you don't believe the exact same way that he believes on all issues and fundamentals of the bible, then you're salvation or claim of being a Christian is questionable.  He feels like since he is a pastor, and if someone doesn't do what he says, they are being disobedient to God. He said all his visions and wants and desires are from God and everyone at the church should follow the pastor's lead. I cannot base my faith on how my father believes because I do not believe every single thing he believes is right according to what I read in my Bible. Yes, there are some things we agree on, but I do not feel like that is what makes me to be a Christian. And that's what I'm dealing with, getting pass the psychological and spirtual damage I have experienced over the years. I also don't like all the labels... he feels like Southern Baptist that are close to Calvinism beliefs are the closest to God's Word. I don't feel like labeling myself in that way is going to help my faith. That's the part of religion I reject, all the labeling, hidden agenda of man, and semi-legalism going on with God's word.


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## Sharpened (Aug 7, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Thank you for saying this.
> 
> My father has caused a lot of strife... psychologically and spiritually. He feels like if you don't believe the exact same way that he believes on all issues and fundamentals of the bible, then you're salvation or claim of being a Christian is questionable.  He feels like since he is a pastor, and if someone doesn't do what he says, they are being disobedient to God. He said all his visions and wants and desires are from God and everyone at the church should follow the pastor's lead. I cannot base my faith on how my father believes because I do not believe every single thing he believes is right according to what I read in my Bible. Yes, there are some things we agree on, but I do not feel like that is what makes me to be a Christian. And that's what I'm dealing with, getting pass the psychological and spirtual damage I have experienced over the years. I also don't like all the labels... he feels like Southern Baptist that are close to Calvinism beliefs are the closest to God's Word. I don't feel like labeling myself in that way is going to help my faith. That's the part of religion I reject, all the labeling, hidden agenda of man, and semi-legalism going on with God's word.





> *Philippians 2:12-13* Why, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, _work out your own salvation with fear and trembling_. For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.
> 
> *1 Corinthians 14:36* What? Came the word of God out from you? Or came it to you only?
> 
> ...


You already know this; you know the Bible better than I do. I have a problem with the pastor-on-top hierarchy because we were never to place ourselves above anyone else. We all have a job to do within Christ's Body. Jesus set the example of how a pastor is to conduct himself, how to evangelize, etc. Maybe I should post this in that Anne Rice thread…

  One day you will look back at this time as a tribulation moment and see how much you have overcome.


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## Crown (Aug 8, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> My responses are in blue...
> Would we really be *dying left and right when we sin* against God if Jesus had not died? _I'm  not sure what you're getting at. Are you thinking about the difference  between God's wrath shown in the Old Testament and today? _This  is what I was getting at with that question... the Bible says the wages  of sin is death. So I was thinking if Christ didn't die for the  punishment of our sins, we would be dying left and right. Is that true  or just backwards thinking? I've also heard this been taught as well.



I don’t think so. CoilyFields has explained it in post 69 :


CoilyFields said:


> ...
> Oh! But one question I can answer now is about Jesus atoning for our sins through his sacrificial death.
> 
> 1. When man sinned in the garden the punishment was death and seperation from God.
> ...



The first sacrifice was made by Him, right after the sin, so we can live although we were separated from Him, the LIFE : Gen. 3.21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make *coats of skins, and clothed them*.
 
An animal (or more than one) died for those clothes.

GOD is LOVE. HE does not want us to be perished. The Messiah IS the plan of salvation of the FATHER. This _if Christ did not die_ can not exist.


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