# Was our hair meant to be this difficult?



## kally (Jan 27, 2007)

In the journey to acheive healthy, longer hair it is very overwhelming.


Our hair is something else. I can't take it anymore.  Chemicals, heat , the wrong diet, protective stlyes, wrong products, to many of the right products , oils, grease, wrong clothing, braids,weaves,wigs, using the wrong tools, brushing,combing, using to many product, using not enough products,   you name it causes damages. Everything that you can possible do for our hair seems to cause damage. There seems that there is nothing out there that does not cause damage to our hair. Proper care is key, but you have to go to great lengths to get it and never stop once you have master the art of what it takes for your hair. This can get very costly and time consuming, because what works for one may not work other as we find out in updated threads. 

I firmly believe that God did not design our hair to be so fragile. I believe that someone way back in the day messed it up for us. I  never heard of other races having to tie up their hair in silk or satin to prevent it from spliting or having to add oil etc... I know they have issues to but not as fragile as ours.

Sorry so long I am just frustrated. I thought I had my regimen down and now have to revise it.


----------



## PaperClip (Jan 27, 2007)

Environment and socialization have a lot of influence on the perceptions of our hair along with the way our hair exists on top of our heads.

*Environment: *food, pollution, chemicals, weather/climate, etc.

*Socialization:* The straighter the hair, the better. The "blonder" the hair, the better. The longer the hair, the better. But if one's hair does NOT look like these things "naturally" or with help, it takes a toll on one's psyche. 

So "difficult" is a relative term. A personal term. An individual interpretation. "Difficult" is a value-laden term.


----------



## Isis (Jan 27, 2007)

I believe we have the most beautiful, versatile hair in the world.  Haircare can be easy once we learn how.  The same applies to all hair types.  

God made our hair perfectly.  The struggle some people have is working against their hair, trying to make it appear according to someone else's standard.

For me, I make sure my hair journey is totally fun and it has been.  That's what makes it easy and something to look forward to.


----------



## LocksOfLuV (Jan 27, 2007)

I think this is a good hair discussion topic and I hope others chime in.

I was watching the discovery channel one day and it was talking about how different "races" came about. Basicly life began in Africa, but diff. people migrated to diff. areas which had some effect on our features.

It was said in the program ,that due to the climate (hot and humid) of Africa, that Africans weren't really 'designed' to have long hair. That our hair was genetically short to keep us cool and that the coils/napps kept the sun from burning our skin on top of our heads. And white people have long hair to protect them from the cold/wind and other elements from habitating on the Northern hemisphere. And so on and so on...

Don't know how true it is. But it makes (sort of) sense to me.

But often I find myself pondering like you. Like what was GOD's intention when he created diff. ethnic 'features. Anyways, this is a good topic.


----------



## kally (Jan 27, 2007)

You all are right  and it is fun finding out what works for you. 

God makes no mistakes and I am blessed to have the hair he has given me, it is just that it is so hard to up keep and understand.


----------



## FlowerHair (Jan 27, 2007)

I agree with the others - our hair is soooo simple and easy to care for. Provided that one doesn't try to make it into something it really isn't. 
Like for instance wanting stick straight hair 365 days a year when the hair is really a 3b-4b  

Imagine how difficult it would be for a white woman to achieve a perfect 4b afro every morning  She would have difficult hair for sure! And destroyed by chemicals and heat appliances!!!


----------



## kimbaparis (Jan 27, 2007)

I feel you. My grandmother used to say that the only thing she envied white people for was their hair. 
My hair isn't versatile at all. It only wants to be very short and very kinky. It hates any effort to make it anything else. The trouble is many of us are struggling against the nature of our hair. I will continue to do it but I recognize that I am trying to coax it into being something it's not. I figure if I give it lots of candy (moisture, vitamins and healthy diet) it might be coaxed along. i'm not going to let it know how much I dislike it. i should give it its one prop though. i have lots of my yucky old hair and i will be very sad if it thins. sshhhhhh. don't anyone tell it the mean things i said about it.


----------



## Junonia (Jan 27, 2007)

Isis said:
			
		

> I believe we have the most beautiful, versatile hair in the world.


 
I agree with


----------



## Junonia (Jan 27, 2007)

Isis said:
			
		

> I believe we have the most beautiful, versatile hair in the world.


 
I agree with the above.


----------



## JustKiya (Jan 27, 2007)

FlowerHair said:
			
		

> Imagine how difficult it would be for a white woman to achieve a perfect 4b afro every morning  She would have difficult hair for sure! And destroyed by chemicals and heat appliances!!!


 
  

Can you just imagine??? Oh wow - putting it like that is WONDERFUL - if you don't fight your hair, it isn't hard to deal with. If you try to force it to do something that's fundamentally different from it's natural state - it's GONNA rebel.


----------



## Qetesh (Jan 27, 2007)

honestly as much as we try to change our hair texture into the westernized view of long straight only= beautiful we will never fully appreciate our hair. 

i personally love my hair yes my texture is coarse but its beautiful, i can easlily make my hair boring and straight like 1a hair naturally is, only when i do i like mine even better because of the body i have, also no 1a person can have the natural 3c-4a look that i do, and honestly alot of the 1a's out there do envy us. 

taking care of our hair is really not any worse than any other races IMO the longer your hair the more hassle it is to take care of it. with that said when my hair is in its natural state it is shoulder length where as if i were i 1a i would be waistlength all the time... what a bore...  , true u may at times need to be more gentle to your hair but really its all about caring for yourself and your body and that shouldnt be difficult at all.


----------



## Poohbear (Jan 27, 2007)

Isis said:
			
		

> I believe we have the most beautiful, versatile hair in the world.  Haircare can be easy once we learn how.  The same applies to all hair types.
> 
> God made our hair perfectly.  The struggle some people have is working against their hair, trying to make it appear according to someone else's standard.
> 
> For me, I make sure my hair journey is totally fun and it has been.  That's what makes it easy and something to look forward to.


In total agreement with Isis. Our hair doesn't have to be difficult. Keep your regimen simple and have fun!


----------



## B_Phlyy (Jan 27, 2007)

No one's hair is difficult as long as they work with their hair within limits. I think that even when it comes to chemicals, as long as the hair is not being overprocessed, it can be worked with.


----------



## navsegda (Jan 27, 2007)

kally said:
			
		

> In the journey to acheive healthy, longer hair it is very overwhelming.
> 
> 
> Our hair is something else. I can't take it anymore.  Chemicals, heat , the wrong diet, protective stlyes, wrong products, to many of the right products , oils, grease, wrong clothing, braids,weaves,wigs, using the wrong tools, brushing,combing, using to many product, using not enough products,   you name it causes damages. Everything that you can possible to for our hair seems to cause damage. There seems that there is nothing out there that does not cause damage to our hair. Proper care is key, but you have to go to great lengths to get it and never stop once you have master the art of what it takes for your hair. This can get very costly and time consuming, because what works for one may not work other as we find out in updated threads.
> ...



I totally get what you are saying.  Word [email protected] bolded.

I'm going to admit:  I use the satin because well, I like the feel of it.  My hair was just fine though when I WASN'T sleeping on a satin pillowcase.  I also add oil because hey, it doesn't do any harm and it smells good, so what the heck, ya know?


----------



## navsegda (Jan 27, 2007)

LocksOfLuV said:
			
		

> I think this is a good hair discussion topic and I hope others chime in.
> 
> I was watching the discovery channel one day and it was talking about how different "races" came about. Basicly life began in Africa, but diff. people migrated to diff. areas which had some effect on our features.
> 
> ...


Kinda a spinoff of what you are saying, but has anyone ever pondered this for instance:  why are we born with straight or soft, loosely coiled hair?  I have YET to see a black baby born with kinky, coily, unmanageable hair.  Why can't we keep this type of hair?  Personally, I think it's just the work of homeobox genes.  We get to keep this type of hair for a short while because that's what we were first given but due to other factors that happened in our history another set of genes (like what they are saying about the African climate) switches on so our hair no longer grows in the loosely coiled texture that it first did.  Because I mean, everyone came from Africa and some people migrated while others stayed and worked the harsh climate.  If the climate wasn't a factor in changing our hair texture, then why doesn't everyone (even the whites who migrated) have the same texture of hair and why aren't we all born with the kinky, coily hair to begin with?

Someone needs to investigate this.  If they already have, please post some scientific articles explaining this.


----------



## dicapr (Jan 27, 2007)

I don't think out hair is that difficult, I think we make it so.  When many of us came to this board our hair was damaged.  We gave our hair all the TLC it needed and it thrived. Once your hair is healthy again, I don't think you need the extreme measures anymore.  Once I nursed my hair back to health, my products and regimine became simple.  Wash, condition, leave in, a little oil- that's it.  Even an occational blow dry and flat iron don't have disasterous concequences. Healthy hair is easy, damaged hair is another story.


----------



## RoseGolden (Jan 27, 2007)

LocksOfLuV said:
			
		

> I think this is a good hair discussion topic and I hope others chime in.
> 
> I was watching the discovery channel one day and it was talking about how different "races" came about. Basicly life began in Africa, but diff. people migrated to diff. areas which had some effect on our features.
> 
> ...



Wow. Does anyone think this affects what we belive on LHCF that any black woman can have long hair? Interesting.


----------



## Isis (Jan 27, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> Kinda a spinoff of what you are saying, but has anyone ever pondered this for instance: why are we born with straight or soft, loosely coiled hair? I have YET to see a black baby born with kinky, coily, unmanageable hair. Why can't we keep this type of hair? Personally, I think it's just the work of homeobox genes. We get to keep this type of hair for a short while because that's what we were first given but due to other factors that happened in our history another set of genes (like what they are saying about the African climate) switches on so our hair no longer grows in the loosely coiled texture that it first did. Because I mean, everyone came from Africa and some people migrated while others stayed and worked the harsh climate. If the climate wasn't a factor in changing our hair texture, then why doesn't everyone (even the whites who migrated) have the same texture of hair and why aren't we all born with the kinky, coily hair to begin with?
> 
> Someone needs to investigate this. If they already have, please post some scientific articles explaining this.


I just want to say there is nothing wrong with kinky, coily hair.  Some white people are born with it, especially in parts of Russia and some of the surrounding countries where the weather is frigid.   I have met a few personally with 4a-4b hair.  Some white Jewish people also have kinky, coily hair.


----------



## navsegda (Jan 27, 2007)

Isis said:
			
		

> *I just want to say there is nothing wrong with kinky, coily hair*.  Some white people are born with it, especially in parts of Russia and some of the surrounding countries where the weather is frigid.   I have met a few personally with 4a-4b hair.  Some white Jewish people also have kinky, coily hair.



You're right, and I didn't mean to make it seem as if I was insulting kinky, coily hair.  Climate, though, whether hot or cold, can have different effects on the hair.  I have too seen what you describe.  However, were these people BORN with the texture of hair they have now or is it something they acquired as they grew older is what I'm asking (like does their hair look the same when they were little babies that it does now).  I also still want to know why the textures of our hair changes (not everyone's , just some people's).


----------



## Belle Du Jour (Jan 27, 2007)

I am going to be real:  I am frustrated with my hair because it is taking a lot of effort to grow out.  I do sometime feel it isn't "fair" that other races can just have hair without all the extra stuff I have to do.  I personally don't feel that I am forcing my hair to be something it doesn't want to be, but it is still taking some effort to grow it out.  I definitely love my hair but fighting for length is hella frustrating.


----------



## LocksOfLuV (Jan 27, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> Kinda a spinoff of what you are saying, but has anyone ever pondered this for instance: why are we born with straight or soft, loosely coiled hair? I have YET to see a black baby born with kinky, coily, unmanageable hair. Why can't we keep this type of hair? Personally, I think it's just the work of homeobox genes. We get to keep this type of hair for a short while because that's what we were first given but due to other factors that happened in our history another set of genes (like what they are saying about the African climate) switches on so our hair no longer grows in the loosely coiled texture that it first did. Because I mean, everyone came from Africa and some people migrated while others stayed and worked the harsh climate. If the climate wasn't a factor in changing our hair texture, then why doesn't everyone (even the whites who migrated) have the same texture of hair and why aren't we all born with the kinky, coily hair to begin with?
> 
> Someone needs to investigate this. If they already have, please post some scientific articles explaining this.


 

I feel you. That would be one helluva study.

I think whatever goes on, is along the same phenomenon with a lot of things that change from being babies unto adulthood such as; babies with pretty healthy pink gums that turn diff colors with age, soft buttery skin that turns with age, pretty fingers and toes that turn for the worse, and other stuff too. But you raise a good point.

If someone found out the secret and bottled it for 10000 bucks a oz, I think it would sell like hot cakes!


----------



## zailless (Jan 27, 2007)

kally said:
			
		

> In the journey to acheive healthy, longer hair it is very overwhelming.
> 
> 
> Our hair is something else. I can't take it anymore. Chemicals, heat , the wrong diet, protective stlyes, wrong products, to many of the right products , oils, grease, wrong clothing, braids,weaves,wigs, using the wrong tools, brushing,combing, using to many product, using not enough products, you name it causes damages. Everything that you can possible to for our hair seems to cause damage. There seems that there is nothing out there that does not cause damage to our hair. Proper care is key, but you have to go to great lengths to get it and never stop once you have master the art of what it takes for your hair. This can get very costly and time consuming, because what works for one may not work other as we find out in updated threads.
> ...


 
I am sick of my difficult hair.  From straight to natural to braids to wigs to braids again.  i feel like this is a raw deal.  i cuss about it every now and again.  forget socialization and all that crap.  right now, i wish i had hair that i could sleep on and not worry about breakage, that i could take a swim in the sea and not worry about salt, go to the gym and not worry about whether i should wash everyday or not.


----------



## seraphinelle (Jan 27, 2007)

*Re: the question about hair on baby's*

*I read somewhere it had something to do with the amniotic fluid.*

*Now I'm not saying, that someone should market amiotic fluid and sell it in black hair stores, LOL,*

 

I use to find my hair incredibly hard to manage.

When my mom said I was on my own with my hair I would cry trying to comb it.  I hated it.

Then I self-relaxed and it broke off, but I kept relaxing. 

It wasn't until about 2 years ago, when I actually put an effort into doing it.

And now the coarse hair that a friend use to cuss me out 'Oh seraphinelle, you don't have good hair, you can't go natural' is alot softer and easier to manage, and I wouldn't trade it for the world.

Well maybe some money, but that's a different story..


----------



## LocksOfLuV (Jan 27, 2007)

:.Krys.: said:
			
		

> Wow. Does anyone think this affects what we belive on LHCF that any black woman can have long hair? Interesting.


 
I will be honest and say I honestly don't know. I still struggle with this.

It just seems like we do SO MUCH to get/retain length that other races don't have to do. It also seems like they can do way more damage to their locks then we can ever do (and have long hair) whether it is relaxed or natural.

I won't say genetics is against us. But sometimes I think, maybe, just _maybe_, we weren't meant to have long hair. But that's my opinions though.


----------



## LocksOfLuV (Jan 27, 2007)

seraphinelle said:
			
		

> *Re: the question about hair on baby's*
> 
> *I read somewhere it had something to do with the amniotic fluid.*
> 
> ...


 
Amniotic fluid ehhhh....*ponders getting pregnant* J/k!!! 

But yeah, that would be interesting. I wonder why black hair-care scientists hasn't profited off of this (yet)?


----------



## LocksOfLuV (Jan 27, 2007)

classimami713 said:
			
		

> I am going to be real: I am frustrated with my hair because it is taking a lot of effort to grow out. I do sometime feel it isn't "fair" that other races can just have hair without all the extra stuff I have to do. I personally don't feel that I am forcing my hair to be something it doesn't want to be, but it is still taking some effort to grow it out. I definitely love my hair but fighting for length is hella frustrating.


 
You wrote me. I feel the same way. I don't really express it here, because I know I won't have anyone back me up, but I feel you. I really do.

The growing out process is no punk!


----------



## Isis (Jan 27, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> You're right, and I didn't mean to make it seem as if I was insulting kinky, coily hair. Climate, though, whether hot or cold, can have different effects on the hair. I have too seen what you describe. However, were these people BORN with the texture of hair they have now or is it something they acquired as they grew older is what I'm asking (like does their hair look the same when they were little babies that it does now). I also still want to know why the textures of our hair changes (not everyone's , just some people's).


Hmm...our baby hair does seem to always be a different texture.  I did wonder (and post in the past) about this when many, including me somewhat, experienced a texture change using MSM with a softer, looser new growth.  MSM is supposed to restore our bodies to its original, healthy state. :scratchch


----------



## navsegda (Jan 27, 2007)

zailless said:
			
		

> I am sick of my difficult hair.  From straight to natural to braids to wigs to braids again.  i feel like this is a raw deal.  *i cuss about it every now and again.*  forget socialization and all that crap.  right now, i wish i had hair that i could sleep on and not worry about breakage, that i could take a swim in the sea and not worry about salt, go to the gym and not worry about whether i should wash everyday or not.



LMFAO.  Girl, I feel you.  I wish I had that "wash and go do nothing else" hair.  I mean, wash my hair, condition it, not have to use ANY product and I'd be fine.


----------



## deontaer (Jan 27, 2007)

Personally, I think if we just focused more on the *health *of our hair and not the *length*, it will grow natually because it is healthy.  I became a member of this board because I wanted to learn more about maintaining my hair.  If it grows because I've become wiser in how to manage it - wonderful.  But if it doesn't, so be it.  People also forget that physical stress also causes issues with your hair...so stop stressing it.  Find a *simple* regimen that works for you and keep it that way.  I think because our hair is beautifully made and is the only type of hair that can be styled in every way imaginable...we tend to do just that just to look "cute" and our hair suffers.  Most white people do nothing more than wash and go...see, simple.  They may pin it up or whatever, or go to the salon for something special occasionally, but how many of them are in the salon getting their hair burnt up every week to 2 weeks?


----------



## navsegda (Jan 27, 2007)

Isis said:
			
		

> Hmm...our baby hair does seem to always be a different texture.  I did wonder (and post in the past) about this when many, including me somewhat, experienced a texture change using MSM with a softer, looser new growth.  MSM is supposed to restore our bodies to its original, healthy state. :scratchch



See, I was wondering this too but I thought I was alone lol.  I have also heard many people state that their natural hair grows with looser texture with the MSM than without it.  I need to research this MSM more.  Maybe something in it or similar to it was something that was originally a part of our genes that became "corrupted" along the way.  Corrupted is the wrong word, hmm...maybe, "altered" is better?  And is it possible to isolate what exactly this is and get it back without taking MSM?


----------



## Candy1978 (Jan 27, 2007)

I have asked God more than once why did he make our hair like this. Then I realized that God is perfect, and he doesn't make any mistakes. First of all our hair was made for the climate that we are originally from ( Africa). I prayed that God would help me to accept my hair, and love it the way He loves it, and help me to take care of it. Our hair is what it is , Naturally Dry, and thus we have to keep it moisturized. I believe that you can  have a simple regimen to grow your hair out, and that you don't have to use like 50 products. My regimen is simple....I suggest just praying for acceptance..because Our hair isn't going to change....lol


----------



## B_Phlyy (Jan 27, 2007)

:.Krys.: said:
			
		

> Wow. Does anyone think this affects what we belive on LHCF that any black woman can have long hair? Interesting.


 
I honestly don't know. I do think that most black women can get to and maintain SL, but most people on hair boards don't consider hair long until like APL, so that's why some say that not all blac women can grow "long" hair.

My theory about the "black hair isn't designed to be long" is that in it's completely unaltered state (which to me means just rinsed with water and airdried into a shrunken fro) black hair would not appear to grow long. But when extra care is taken and moisturizers and whatnot are added, hair retains more length even though it's still shrunken.

But these are just my thoughs.


----------



## navsegda (Jan 27, 2007)

Candy1978 said:
			
		

> I have asked God more than once why did he make our hair like this. Then I realized that God is perfect, and he doesn't make any mistakes. First of all our hair was made for the climate that we are originally from ( Africa). I prayed that God would help me to accept my hair, and love it the way He loves it, and help me to take care of it. Our hair is what it is , Naturally Dry, and thus we have to keep it moisturized. I believe that you can  have a simple regimen to grow your hair out, and that you don't have to use like 50 products. My regimen is simple....I suggest just praying for acceptance..because Our hair isn't going to change....lol



See, that's the thing I want to know.  Did God MAKE our hair like this from the beginning of time or is it something that we or the climate or WHATEVER else did to alter our texture permanently somewhere along our history?  Yes, God is perfect but human beings are not.


----------



## firecracker (Jan 27, 2007)

Isis said:
			
		

> I believe we have the most beautiful, versatile hair in the world. Haircare can be easy once we learn how. The same applies to all hair types.
> 
> God made our hair perfectly. The struggle some people have is working against their hair, trying to make it appear according to someone else's standard.
> 
> For me, I make sure my hair journey is totally fun and it has been. That's what makes it easy and something to look forward to.


 
Your comment is awesome and right on point.


----------



## JustKiya (Jan 27, 2007)

zailless said:
			
		

> I am sick of my difficult hair. From straight to natural to braids to wigs to braids again. i feel like this is a raw deal. i cuss about it every now and again. forget socialization and all that crap. right now, i wish i had hair that i could sleep on and not worry about breakage, that i could take a swim in the sea and not worry about salt, go to the gym and not worry about whether i should wash everyday or not.


 
The thing is - white women have to worry about that too!! I'm on a majority white hair board - and they talk about the SAME STUFF - making satin seat cover so their hair won't rub on the back of their seats. Blowdrying their hair straight every morning because they don't want their 'waves'. Wonder what the best treatment is (oil or conditioner) to leave-in their hair while in the sun and sand of the beach - AND they worry about the salt in their hair after they work out. 

I really think it's a misconception that black people are the ONLY ones who do things (chemical/mechanical) to their hair because they aren't happy with how it grows out of their hair. Black people aren't the ONLY ones who struggle to grow their hair out - we are just the ones who fight our natural texture the most.


----------



## mango387 (Jan 27, 2007)

Disclaimer: Although I have relaxed hair, I am starting to miss my kinky 4b/4a hair.  I have transitioned fully before, and I do not mind doing it again.

Okay, I am reading posts where people are saying that people who fight with their natural hair texture or long for straight hair make our hair difficult when it really is not if we just go with the flow.  I do not know if this is true for everyone.  I fully transitioned the second time by myself with the help of LHCF.  (The first time I was a child, and my mother was handling the care).  As it was growing out, I learned to love the texture of my hair.  I loved it when it was braided or twisted up BUT it took FOREVER to do my hair.  Therefore, I somewhat understand what the OP is saying.

Some would say that I just had bad technique or was using the wrong product.  I really do not think I was, because when I would go to the salon on rare occasions some of the stylists would comment favorably on the health of my hair.  I found some great detanglers through this site, but sometimes my hair would  at them.

Others would say that I just was not used to doing my hair; I did my hair for about two years...When I finished my hair it was pretty 90% of the time, but it took forever to get it there.  I would not as I said in a previous thread change my texture for any- one.  Why? I love the weight and thickness of it, and I like the zigs and zags (that is why I can do this stretching thing).  If could find someway to make my majority 4b natural hair more manageable for the days when I did not have 3+ hours to spend styling it just in twists or braids, then I would be happpyy.  (Oh, I could never do an Afro Puff, because my shrinking was so bad that my hair in one of the cloth wraps would look as if it was two inches long when it was eight-nine inches long then).


----------



## Candy1978 (Jan 27, 2007)

well the thing is that our hair texture is in our genes...it's genetic. so if someone altered it they had to mess with our genetics, I don't know if they even had the tecnology to do that sort of genetic altering back in the day, so I do beleive that our texture was God given....maybe the hair "adapted" to the climate..that could be, but then you think of other groups who live in the same climate...Middle east, Israel, all throught the Northern parts of Africa, and they all normally have 2-3b hair textures naturally, so I can only guess that our hair is geneticly inclined to be coarse





			
				navsegda said:
			
		

> See, that's the thing I want to know. Did God MAKE our hair like this from the beginning of time or is it something that we or the climate or WHATEVER else did to alter our texture permanently somewhere along our history? Yes, God is perfect but human beings are not.


----------



## navsegda (Jan 27, 2007)

Candy1978 said:
			
		

> well the thing is that our hair texture is in our genes...it's genetic. so if someone altered it they had to mess with our genetics, I don't know if they even had the tecnology to do that sort of genetic altering back in the day, so I do beleive that our texture was God given....maybe the hair "adapted" to the climate..that could be, but then you think of other groups who live in the same climate...Middle east, Israel, all throught the Northern parts of Africa, and they all normally have 2-3b hair textures naturally, so I can only guess that our hair is geneticly inclined to be coarse



Maybe this is just one of those mysteries that we'll never know.  I know it's hard for some to believe, but there are many black women who have the looser textures that are not mixed and cannot trace white, Indian, or other ancestry in their past (this of course doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but if they can go back for several generations and not be able to trace anything, then that's good enough for me).  Not all of us have coarse hair.  And like I said, I have yet to see or hear of any black person (maybe you or someone else has) with the "kinkier" texture now who was born with the hair this exact same way.  We may never know and all we can do is accept it.


----------



## sunnygirl (Jan 27, 2007)

Isis said:
			
		

> I believe we have the most beautiful, versatile hair in the world. Haircare can be easy once we learn how. The same applies to all hair types.
> 
> God made our hair perfectly. The struggle some people have is working against their hair, trying to make it appear according to someone else's standard.
> 
> For me, I make sure my hair journey is totally fun and it has been. That's what makes it easy and something to look forward to.


 
You took the words right out of my mouth:wink2:


----------



## mango387 (Jan 27, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> Maybe this is just one of those mysteries that we'll never know.  I know it's hard for some to believe, but there are many black women who have the looser textures that are not mixed and cannot trace white, Indian, or other ancestry in their past (this of course doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but if they can go back for several generations and not be able to trace anything, then that's good enough for me).  Not all of us have coarse hair.  *And like I said, I have yet to see or hear of any black person (maybe you or someone else has) with the "kinkier" texture now who was born with the hair this exact same way.*  We may never know and all we can do is accept it.



Hello.  My name is Mango387.   My hair was so rolled up on my little head that when I saw a Polaroid from my birth date I was like  .  I think it was not as wiry, but I have never seen a newborn with hair that actually looked kinky like mine did.  My dad is the only one who refers to my newborn hair as curly and that is only because he loves me .


----------



## zailless (Jan 27, 2007)

nappywomyn said:
			
		

> The thing is - white women have to worry about that too!! I'm on a majority white hair board - and they talk about the SAME STUFF - making satin seat cover so their hair won't rub on the back of their seats. Blowdrying their hair straight every morning because they don't want their 'waves'. Wonder what the best treatment is (oil or conditioner) to leave-in their hair while in the sun and sand of the beach - AND they worry about the salt in their hair after they work out.
> 
> I really think it's a misconception that black people are the ONLY ones who do things (chemical/mechanical) to their hair because they aren't happy with how it grows out of their hair. Black people aren't the ONLY ones who struggle to grow their hair out - we are just the ones who fight our natural texture the most.


 
I dont care about whites to be honest, and how difficult their hair maybe.  my friends have to straighten and do all kinds of things to get their hair to look right.  i once saw my bulgarian gf with her curly hair.  i didnt realize it was her natural hair and said to her 'your hair looks out of wack, what did you do?'  she was so embarrassed.  both of us have never shown our natural hair to each other.  now she is into my braids and im in her business sharing hair stuff.  the point is, no matter what, im still sick of my hair.  all my coworkers are white and from talking about hair, i know we share the same frustrations, but some of them were born with wash and wear, chinese too and indians.  i wish got a wash and wear hair. i know i woudnt care cause i am not crazy about any hair style in particular.


----------



## navsegda (Jan 27, 2007)

Here's something else I've been wondering:  why is it that if you say you wish you had a different texture of hair, some people become automatically offended but if you say you wish you were taller, had bigger boobs, a bigger butt, smaller feet, etc. you don't get the same negative "race traitor" type response?


----------



## kally (Jan 27, 2007)

I have a love/ hate relationship with my hair and it is beautiful. I do not try to change its  natural state to much and I fully believe we can have long hair, the proof is on this board it just seems we have to work so much harder at it.

I know for a fact that once God puts a curse one someone it can be for generations to come. Take Eve for instance: Child birth was suppose to be painless, once she took the apple God said that she would experience pain  and joy at the same time. All women have suffered because of it . Jesus Christ died for our sins so that we may be forgiven I fully believe this. Also there are somethings that I feel God have set in place due to past actions. This has to be one of them. Look how different our hair is.

 When it comes to our beautiful skin color, you have dark Lations and indians as well but their hair is also wash and go like the white race. So something is up.

As far as MSM I really believe it does change the texture, because as you all know by now I cut my hair really close and have been taken it and my har truely is growing in 3bish where ae before it was 4aish.


----------



## navsegda (Jan 27, 2007)

kally said:
			
		

> I know for a fact that once God puts a curse one someone it can be for generations to come. Take Eve for instance: Child birth was suppose to be painless, once she took the apple God said that she would experience pain  and joy at the same time. All women have suffered because of it . Jesus Christ died for our sins so that we may be forgiven I fully believe this. Also there are somethings that I feel God have set in place due to past actions. This has to be one of them. Look how different our hair is.



Oh snap, the Pandora's box has been opened!  But hmm...you bring up a VERY interesting point to say the least.


----------



## PaperClip (Jan 27, 2007)

kally said:
			
		

> I know for a fact that once God puts a curse one someone it can be for generations to come. Take Eve for instance: Child birth was suppose to be painless, once she took the apple God said that she would experience pain and joy at the same time. All women have suffered because of it . Jesus Christ died for our sins so that we may be forgiven I fully believe this. Also there are somethings that I feel God have set in place due to past actions. This has to be one of them. Look how different our hair is.


 
I think (I hope) that I'm reading here that with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ that those who give their lives to Him are NO LONGER under that curse of childbirth.... 'cause that's how I understand it.... I don't have to have painful childbirths....

...that was slightly off topic but wanted to get this straight....

Back on topic: let's deal with the sobering fact that we have a CHOICE about our the "difficulty" of managing one's hair. It is VERY SOCIAL. We have the choice to WORK WITH IT (NOT AGAINST IT), WEAR A HAT, or LEAVE IT ALONE. But let's not put the blame others concerning the "difficulty" we have about our hair. Own that hair. It's the hair that you came on the planet with and should the Lord be so gracious, it's the hair we'll leave the planet with....


----------



## secretdiamond (Jan 27, 2007)

Navesegda you bring up very interesting points to think about.


----------



## kally (Jan 27, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> Here's something else I've been wondering:  why is it that if you say you wish you had a different texture of hair, some people become automatically offended but if you say you wish you were taller, had bigger boobs, a bigger butt, smaller feet, etc. you don't get the same negative "race traitor" type response?




So true and when it comes to hair, people really get offended.

I am sorry. I love being an AA woman, love everything about it. I Just have such a hard time excepting my hair. Every since I was little girl I have wanted the long locks and has been a huge self-esteem problem for me. I was never able to have the nice little ponytails that little girls wore.  I have never had hair past my neck, so it just does not come easy for me. my hair breaks as it grows. I have applied all the methods on here and still can not achieve it, but that is just me. Many on here have been able to and I am very happy for you. I keeps my hope up.


----------



## PaperClip (Jan 27, 2007)

kally said:
			
		

> So true and when it comes to hair, people really get offended.
> 
> I am sorry. I love being an AA woman, love everything about it. I Just have such a hard time excepting my hair. *Every since I was little girl I have wanted the long locks *and has been a huge self-esteem problem for me. *I was never able to have the nice little ponytails that little girls wore.* I have never had hair past my neck, so it just does not come easy for me. my hair breaks as it grows. I have applied all the methods on here and still can not achieve it, but that is just me. Many on here have been able to and I am very happy for you. I keeps my hope up.


 
This is something that you probably need to explore: WHY did you want those long locks? Every since you were a little girl? Why? Was it that the girls with long locks got the attention? They got noticed and you didn't? You need to deal with that. Same as you, my hair never grew past my neck. I wore relaxers for close to 30 years. 30 years trying to achieve that goal and you know what? The definition of INSANITY is doing the SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN and expecting DIFFERENT RESULTS. So I gave up that chase and grew that relaxer out and I'm not looking back. I have my days when folk look at me cross-eyed about my hair but I'm embracing that SINCE they're not paying for my hair, their "saying" anything about my hair is NULL and VOID. For real....


----------



## Isis (Jan 27, 2007)

kally said:
			
		

> I have a love/ hate relationship with my hair and it is beautiful. I do not try to change its natural state to much and I fully believe we can have long hair, the proof is on this board it just seems we have to work so much harder at it.
> 
> I know for a fact that once God puts a curse one someone it can be for generations to come. Take Eve for instance: Child birth was suppose to be painless, once she took the apple God said that she would experience pain and joy at the same time. All women have suffered because of it . Jesus Christ died for our sins so that we may be forgiven I fully believe this. Also there are somethings that I feel God have set in place due to past actions. This has to be one of them. Look how different our hair is.
> 
> ...


 
I don't see having kinky hair as being as curse from God.  It certainly isn't in the Bible. As I mentioned, there are white people in places like Russia, Croatia, etc. who are born with kinky hair.  

Some here have stated our hair has a more coarse texture because of geographics (Africa) and climate.  So, was there kinky hair before the Biblical flood? The climate was very different on this planet before the flood--its was temperate and more tropical, the same everywhere.


----------



## kally (Jan 27, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> I think (I hope) that I'm reading here that with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ that those who give their lives to Him are NO LONGER under that curse of childbirth.... 'cause that's how I understand it.... I don't have to have painful childbirths....
> 
> ...that was slightly off topic but wanted to get this straight....
> 
> Back on topic: let's deal with the sobering fact that we have a CHOICE about our the "difficulty" of managing one's hair. It is VERY SOCIAL. We have the choice to WORK WITH IT (NOT AGAINST IT), WEAR A HAT, or LEAVE IT ALONE. But let's not put the blame others concerning the "difficulty" we have about our hair. Own that hair. It's the hair that you came on the planet with and should the Lord be so gracious, it's the hair we'll leave the planet with....



What I am saying is that God never intended for their to be pain during labor. Eve messed it up for us all. To my knowlege women still experience pain during delievry and have to rely on pain killers to stop it.  

How does one have a pain free delivery? With out medicine, meditation, etc...

it is suppose to come natural without any help.

I do not blame God for our hair texure nor am I angry with him about it. 

I am just trying to figure out why it is the way it is. Not to mention this has caused so much self hated in general for our race on this issue. I am not talking about us here at LHCF ers we know better. But look at the  old generation  and new ones coming up and how they view their image because of it.


----------



## Ayeshia (Jan 27, 2007)

Isis said:
			
		

> I don't see having kinky hair as being as curse from God.  It certainly isn't in the Bible. As I mentioned, there are white people in places like Russia, Croatia, etc. who are born with kinky hair.
> 
> Some here have stated our hair has a more coarse texture because of geographics (Africa) and climate.  So, was there kinky hair before the Biblical flood? The climate was very different on this planet before the flood--its was temperate and more tropical, the same everywhere.



I never looked at my hair as a curse...hell if Jesus really wanted to curse those with kinky hair, he would have made us BALD and patchy ya head?....imo thats a punishment. plus wasnt it said that Jesus had a wolly hair texture similar to our hair type?


----------



## kally (Jan 27, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> This is something that you probably need to explore: WHY did you want those long locks? Every since you were a little girl? Why? Was it that the girls with long locks got the attention? They got noticed and you didn't? You need to deal with that. Same as you, my hair never grew past my neck. I wore relaxers for close to 30 years. 30 years trying to achieve that goal and you know what? The definition of INSANITY is doing the SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN and expecting DIFFERENT RESULTS. So I gave up that chase and grew that relaxer out and I'm not looking back. I have my days when folk look at me cross-eyed about my hair but I'm embracing that SINCE they're not paying for my hair, their "saying" anything about my hair is NULL and VOID. For real....



I guess the reason I have always wanted long flowing locks is because. I feel I look better with it and to know that it is mine, without me having to buy false hair. 

When I was a little girl I wanted it so I could wear the cute knockers that everyone was wearing to match the outfits., with the cute little twist. I have struggled with this for years. Up until recently (dec 06)  I refused to let anyone see my real hair, because I use to be ashamed of it. I had no choice and to get it all cut off. It was to short for anything else, I did feel free, however that was short lived and I am wearing wraps.


----------



## Dare~to~Dream (Jan 27, 2007)

mango387 said:
			
		

> My hair was so rolled up on my little head that when I saw a Polaroid from my birth date I was like  .



*Ha! My brother had very coarse hair as a baby. Everyone wondered why he didn't have the "baby hair" like everyone else...I was actually bald as a baby (with the exception of a few strands).*


----------



## PaperClip (Jan 27, 2007)

kally said:
			
		

> I guess the reason I have always wanted long flowing locks is because. I feel I look better with it and to know that it is mine, without me having to buy false hair.
> 
> When I was a little girl I wanted it so I could wear the cute knockers that everyone was wearing to match the outfits., with the cute little twist. I have struggled with this for years. Up until recently (dec 06) I refused to let anyone see my real hair, because I use to be ashamed of it. I had no choice and to get it all cut off. It was to short for anything else, I did feel free, however that was short lived and I am wearing wraps.


 
I feel your pain, believe me.... but we don't come out the womb "feeling like we look better with long hair" (well, maybe this could happen because babies can hear in the womb and maybe you heard something while you were in the womb like "I hope she has long hair"....) 

But for the most part, you had to hear that thinking from somewhere.... and that kind of thinking wasn't fair to you. That kind of thinking isn't fair to any child.


----------



## kally (Jan 27, 2007)

Maybe to use the word curse is a strong word and I really should not be using it when it comes to God's creation nor second guessing God on it, Which I am sorry if it comes across like that.

For the climate why is it that this has carried on down from generation to generation? You would think that with time changes our genes would go back to way it was before our people moved their. Where we really the only race of people living in those conditions so long ago?  I know there had to be other races there as well.


----------



## kally (Jan 27, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> I feel your pain, believe me.... but we don't come out the womb "feeling like we look better with long hair" (well, maybe this could happen because babies can hear in the womb and maybe you heard something while you were in the womb like "I hope she has long hair"....)
> 
> But for the most part, you had to hear that thinking from somewhere.... and that kind of thinking wasn't fair to you. That kind of thinking isn't fair to any child.



LOL!!!! that is so true, that is all you hear. Pregnant women do talk constantly  about the baby being born with "good hair" especially if it a girl. To tell you the truth I have no idea what I heard or how it all started. All I know is that I did not have it and wanted it.


----------



## Isis (Jan 27, 2007)

kally said:
			
		

> What I am saying is that God never intended for their to be pain during labor. Eve messed it up for us all. To my knowlege women still experience pain during delievry and have to rely on pain killers to stop it.
> 
> How does one have a pain free delivery? With out medicine, meditation, etc...
> 
> ...


 
That self-hatred I think you are referring to is primarily in the U.S. and is based on slavery survival issues.  It was based on the white American standard.  It did/does not exist in Africa and other parts of the world where they love their hair no matter what the texture.  Not all black Americans feel this self-hatred.


----------



## MissMarie (Jan 27, 2007)

kally said:
			
		

> For the climate why is it that this has carried on down from generation to generation? You would think that with time changes our genes would go back to way it was before our people moved their. Where we really the only race of people living in those conditions so long ago?  I know there had to be other races there as well.


_Individual_'s hair did not change because of the climate. Genetic mutation and gene selection can take thousands of years. What happened is that people with certain variations had an advantage over others in different climates, as a result they were often healthier, they were more desirable as mates and their genes were more likely to be passed on to future generations. As a result, the characteristic that creates advantages for individual humans, and human populations, become more prevalent within that group of people. That doesn't mean that certain genes are completely eradicated, or that human populations were completed isolated and did not interact with populations that had different ranges of physical charecteristics. Thats why you see Europeans with eyes like central and east Asians, curly or even kinky hair like western Asians/north Africans, etc.
There is not as much genetic adaptation today because humans have so much control over their environments, we have technology to help us and science to keep as alive. Even though you have African descendents not living in the same conditions as their ancestors their genetic info isn't going to suddenly change, that sort of change does not happen on the individual level and in populations it takes millenia.
Our ancestors really were the only ones living in those types of environments long enough to develop those types of adaptations to the environment (which is why the greatest genetic diversity exists on the continent). Europe is a baby compared to Africa.

Our species, Homo sapiens, was born 170,000 years ago. The ancestors of modern humans began leaving Africa 70-80,000 years ago. So our ancestors had a 100,000 year headstart on developing physical traits that best dealt with the varied environments of their continent.

Before slavery and colonialism traits that were common to darker Africans were just viewed as part of the differences that existed amongst humanity. Its the history of the past 500 hundred years that has left black people with a complex about their hair and complexion (and also physiques and facial features); the notions of white supremacy that undergird the creation of this country have led to the denigration of everything African, especially the unique features (our hair is very unique, almost non-existent amongst other groups of people) of the continent and the diaspora.


----------



## navsegda (Jan 27, 2007)

MissMarie said:
			
		

> _Individual_'s hair did not change because of the climate. Genetic mutation and gene selection can take thousands of years. What happened is that people with certain variations had an advantage over others in different climates, as a result they were often healthier, they were more desirable as mates and their genes were more likely to be passed on to future generations. As a result, the characteristic that creates advantages for individual humans, and human populations, become more prevalent within that group of people. That doesn't mean that certain genes are completely eradicated, or that human populations were completed isolated and did not interact with populations that had different ranges of physical charecteristics. Thats why you see Europeans with eyes like central and east Asians, curly or even kinky hair like western Asians/north Africans, etc.
> There is not as much genetic adaptation today because humans have so much control over their environments, we have technology to help us and science to keep as alive. Even though you have African descendents not living in the same conditions as their ancestors their genetic info isn't going to suddenly change, that sort of change does not happen on the individual level and in populations it takes millenia.
> Our ancestors really were the only ones living in those types of environments long enough to develop those types of adaptations to the environment (which is why the greatest genetic diversity exists on the continent). Europe is a baby compared to Africa.
> 
> ...



Thank you for this.  I read your comments on another thread and I really hoped you would come in here hehe.  Yay!


----------



## Isis (Jan 27, 2007)

Ayeshia said:
			
		

> I never looked at my hair as a curse...hell if Jesus really wanted to curse those with kinky hair, he would have made us BALD and patchy ya head?....imo thats a punishment. plus wasnt it said that Jesus had a wolly hair texture similar to our hair type?


Jesus was Jewish so it's very possible he had a kinky hair type.


----------



## FlutterGirl (Jan 27, 2007)

I think, as a biologist, it's all about Darwin.

I know in some schools in the US they don't talk about his theories, which is weird IMHO. So if I offend some people, just tell me or mods erase this post.

Okay, we don't know what was the first hair texture humans had back in the very first day.
Some people say because of the wheater, it's a big advantage for us to have the big wooly hair, which makes sense. On the course of history some people had mutations in their DNA, so we can evolved. The biggest advantages were transmitted in the next generations. Remeber this was made over THOUSANDS of year. This isn't a whole day thing.

For example, someone may have a mutation in their DNA and came up with big kinky hair. That way that person can have a better protection for the sun and keep himself cold etc, so that was a BIG advantage. The one with the kinky hair reproduce and the ones who cannnot be protected by the sun disappeared little by little. So, having kinky hair was a stronger profile than having straight hair, just like it's more commun to have dark hair, brown eyes vs blond hair, blue eyes. I vulgarized a lot, so you could understand.

The same goes on with our skin... darker skin, big advantage vs light skin. Light skin can appear like straight hair, but it's rare.

The self-hatred thing about hair is all about society and brainwashing in my opinion. What's view beautiful in America may not be seen as the norm in other countries.

My two cents


----------



## navsegda (Jan 27, 2007)

Ayeshia said:
			
		

> I never looked at my hair as a curse...hell if Jesus really wanted to curse those with kinky hair, he would have made us BALD and patchy ya head?....imo thats a punishment. plus wasnt it said that Jesus had a wolly hair texture similar to our hair type?



Doesn't it say somewhere in the Bible that His Hair was like lamb's wool?  Lamb's wool is soft in texture, it's not like the natural texture growing out of my head now .


----------



## FlutterGirl (Jan 27, 2007)

Oops someone beats me


----------



## navsegda (Jan 27, 2007)

FlutterGirl said:
			
		

> I think, as a biologist, it's all about Darwin.
> 
> I know in some schools in the US they don't talk about his theories, which is weird IMHO. So if I offend some people, just tell me or mods erase this post.
> 
> ...



Yes!  Thank you for your statements as well.    I love Darwin but I was reluctant to bring him up because I really did not want to offend anyone.


----------



## patient1 (Jan 27, 2007)

Isis said:
			
		

> Jesus was Jewish so it's very possible he had a kinky hair type.



I have to comment on this and it's kind of off-topic. 

Since Judaism is a religion but most visualize a European when one says "Jewish"...an Ethiopian of today is probably a better visual of what Jesus looked like.

Oversimplified, I know, but I'm winding down.


----------



## MissMarie (Jan 27, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> Thank you for this.  I read your comments on another thread and I really hoped you would come in here hehe.  Yay!


 thanks
i'm not real good with biology and evolution, so i was just trying to explain it as best as i understand it 



			
				navsegda said:
			
		

> I love Darwin but I was reluctant to bring him up because I really did not want to offend anyone.


Thats why I waited so long to respond, its good to see I'm not alone. 
I'm glad Fluttergirl said the same basic thing.


----------



## MissMarie (Jan 27, 2007)

patient1 said:
			
		

> I have to comment on this and it's kind of off-topic.
> 
> Since Judaism is a religion but most visualize a European when one says "Jewish"...an Ethiopian of today is probably a better visual of what Jesus looked like.
> 
> Oversimplified, I know, but I'm winding down.


I've heard the same thing, and that you can't necessarily look at what modern populations look like in a region (due to intermingling, migration, wars, etc) to know what people there looked like thousands of years ago.

I also heard that Jesus most likely wore his hair short, with no facial hair, as was the custom for Jewish men at the time. I have a real hard time visualizing that one.


----------



## Isis (Jan 27, 2007)

patient1 said:
			
		

> I have to comment on this and it's kind of off-topic.
> 
> Since Judaism is a religion but most visualize a European when one says "Jewish"...an Ethiopian of today is probably a better visual of what Jesus looked like.
> 
> Oversimplified, I know, but I'm winding down.


That could be true.  However, my comment was based on my previous post about natural kinky hair types among white people in and around Russia as well as white Jews I met personally. I certainly never believed the Jesus depicted in this country, at least, with blue eyes and straight, long blonde or brunette hair.  I sense he was much more "ethnic" in appearance.


----------



## patient1 (Jan 27, 2007)

MissMarie said:
			
		

> *I've heard the same thing, and that you can't necessarily look at what modern populations look like in a region (due to intermingling, migration, wars, etc) to know what people there looked like thousands of years ago.*
> I also heard that Jesus most likely wore his hair short, with no facial hair, as was the custom for Jewish men at the time. I have a real hard time visualizing that one.



Right. I'm too tired to elaborate and, in the bigger scheme of things, it doesn't matter BUT creating a blue-eyed blond representation that doesn't fit the words in the bible or the norm of the region is just so ridiculous to me...but a powerful fiction nonetheless.

p1


----------



## patient1 (Jan 27, 2007)

Isis said:
			
		

> That could be true.  However, my comment was based on my previous post about natural kinky hair types among white people in and around Russia as well as white Jews I met personally. I certainly never believed the Jesus depicted in this country, at least, with blue eyes and straight, long blonde or brunette hair.  *I sense he was much more "ethnic" in appearance*.



I know you well enough online to realize you see something closer to the truth. I was responding to the term "Jewish" and what comes to mind with that term and it's application to Jesus. It wasn't directed at you. 

Like I said, it's an oversimplification and there's much more that travels through my mind on the subject, I'm just too tired to type and deal with the inevitable debate that would arise.

p1


----------



## Amarech (Jan 27, 2007)

> Imagine how difficult it would be for a white woman to achieve a perfect 4b afro every morning  She would have difficult hair for sure! And destroyed by chemicals and heat appliances!!!
> __________________



Hit the nail on the head! Of course our hair wasn't meant to be this difficult. But like flower hair said (and a lot of others) we are trying to make our hair do something it was never designed to do. If you relax your hair, that process alone takes away so much from the natural hair, its a given that challenges arise. 

On top of that, natural tightly coiled hair is already predisposed to breakage. Each bend, each turn of the coil creates a weak point that doesn't exist with straight hair. 

Its not that our hair is difficult. Its what we are trying to do to our hair that makes it difficult.  If things were the other way around, it wouldn't even be an issue. We wouldn't want straight or wavy or even curly 3b hair. Everyone would want OUR hair and their hair would be messed up trying to acheive it.

If you want to relax your hair (I'm speaking in general -- not just at the OP) then accept the work that comes with it. For me, taking care of my relaxed hair is easier than taking care of my natural hair. This is because I  prefer straight styles and do not enjoy wearing natural styles all the time. It may be the opposite for someone else. But I do not believe our hair is difficult. Our hair is whatever we make it to be and that's the beauty of it.


----------



## Isis (Jan 28, 2007)

patient1 said:
			
		

> I know you well enough online to realize you see something closer to the truth. I was responding to the term "Jewish" and what comes to mind with that term and it's application to Jesus.* It wasn't directed at you*.
> 
> Like I said, it's an oversimplification and there's much more that travels through my mind on the subject, I'm just too tired to type and deal with the inevitable debate that would arise.
> 
> p1


I absolutely did not feel what you stated was directed at me and I didn't take it that way.  My comment was mostly based on my earlier post.


----------



## Crissi (Jan 28, 2007)

Our hair isnâ€™t the problem, we are! Its as simple as that we make it anissue.I will keep re-illiterating my point about black men, if its sooooo hard to grow hair, how comes they never have a problem?!! They just leave it alone, as its meant to be, we wanna have it fried, died and laid to the side. Then complain about not getting somewhere. Something ainâ€™t going to love you if you donâ€™t love it back. Our hair IS NOT FRAGILE, im sick of society telling us that crap, its so fragile that we need DRAIN CLEANER â€“ oh sorry I mean relaxers, to straighten itâ€¦oh please that doesnâ€™t sound fragile to me.

Further more I think itâ€™s a western society thing, because being of west indian heritage I know for sure that blacks can grow hair. Damn near EVERYONE in my family had long hair until THEY took farse and wanted to â€œexperimentâ€.  Ironically that was when they came over here (to the west), or atleast woke up to the ways of the west, and some what felt the need to assimilate to the their â€œstandards of beautyâ€

I also know a few people that are either rastas, travel to africa frequently, or are â€œafrocentricâ€ (ugh I hate that word but itâ€™s the best I could find) and they all say the same thing,â€ohhhhh the people take great care of their hair, women have all textures all legnthsâ€ 

And God doesnâ€™t make mistakes heres one of the obviousâ€¦

1 Corinthians 
15but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering.

â€¦SO what the black woman was excluded from this? I think not


----------



## snoopy1me (Jan 28, 2007)

I wasn't going to post but had to share my opinion lol. I don't think our hair is that difficult. I believe we make it out to be more difficult than it really is.  Some of us can manipulate our hair (relaxers + lots of heat and little tlc) and many of us can't.  Of all the hair types I feel we put our hair through the most "abuse".  

Many of us have gotten a relaxer at a young age and never were able to understand our hair texture or how to care for it, and we also have parents who didn't know either.  I bet if you took any 1a-2c person and gave them a perm and used heat on their hair often they too would have a difficult problem attaining length too.  I'm not saying relaxers are bad, but I believe often there isn't a clear general understanding of what is necessary to keep relaxed hair healthy, even among hairstylists themselves.  

I do believe there are people in every hair type who have "slow growing hair" as well as "fast" growing hair.  Everyone is different so all the challenges,products, and techniques on this board may not be for everyone, but allow people to see a variety of options and figure out which ones work for themselves.


----------



## snoopy1me (Jan 28, 2007)

Crissi said:
			
		

> Our hair isnâ€™t the problem, we are! Its as simple as that we make it anissue.I will keep re-illiterating my point about black men, if its sooooo hard to grow hair, how comes they never have a problem?!! They just leave it alone, as its meant to be, we wanna have it fried, died and laid to the side. Then complain about not getting somewhere. Something ainâ€™t going to love you if you donâ€™t love it back. Our hair IS NOT FRAGILE, im sick of society telling us that crap, its so fragile that we need DRAIN CLEANER â€“ oh sorry I mean relaxers, to straighten itâ€¦oh please that doesnâ€™t sound fragile to me.
> 
> Further more I think itâ€™s a western society thing, because being of west indian heritage I know for sure that blacks can grow hair. Damn near EVERYONE in my family had long hair until THEY took farse and wanted to â€œexperimentâ€.  Ironically that was when they came over here (to the west), or atleast woke up to the ways of the west, and some what felt the need to assimilate to the their â€œstandards of beautyâ€
> 
> ...




i agree with this post


----------



## Sweet_Ambrosia (Jan 28, 2007)

kally said:
			
		

> In the journey to acheive healthy, longer hair it is very overwhelming.
> 
> 
> Our hair is something else. I can't take it anymore.  Chemicals, heat , the wrong diet, protective stlyes, wrong products, to many of the right products , oils, grease, wrong clothing, braids,weaves,wigs, using the wrong tools, brushing,combing, using to many product, using not enough products,   you name it causes damages. Everything that you can possible do for our hair seems to cause damage. There seems that there is nothing out there that does not cause damage to our hair. Proper care is key, but you have to go to great lengths to get it and never stop once you have master the art of what it takes for your hair. This can get very costly and time consuming, because what works for one may not work other as we find out in updated threads.
> ...






*Our hair is unique, that's how God made it. Growing healthy long(er) hair takes time, commitment and upkeep, no matter what type of texture you may have. You have to work at it, take the proper steps in order to acheive your goals, just like with any other thing in life. If I stopped all the protective styling/bagging/moisturizing/sealing/CW'ing/etc...the health of my hair would go downhill as well as the length.  I dont mind taking these steps in order to acheive my hair goals and to maintain the overall health of my hair, it's pretty much become a healthy habit for me. 

I really do think that sometimes we can be our on worst enemy when it comes to hair. It's not the texture, it's not the products, it's our mindset.

SA*


----------



## Isis (Jan 28, 2007)

Crissi said:
			
		

> Our hair isnâ€™t the problem, we are! Its as simple as that we make it anissue.I will keep re-illiterating my point about black men, if its sooooo hard to grow hair, how comes they never have a problem?!! They just leave it alone, as its meant to be, we wanna have it fried, died and laid to the side. Then complain about not getting somewhere. Something ainâ€™t going to love you if you donâ€™t love it back. Our hair IS NOT FRAGILE, im sick of society telling us that crap, its so fragile that we need DRAIN CLEANER â€“ oh sorry I mean relaxers, to straighten itâ€¦oh please that doesnâ€™t sound fragile to me.
> 
> Further more I think itâ€™s a western society thing, because being of west indian heritage I know for sure that blacks can grow hair. Damn near EVERYONE in my family had long hair until THEY took farse and wanted to â€œexperimentâ€. Ironically that was when they came over here (to the west), or atleast woke up to the ways of the west, and some what felt the need to assimilate to the their â€œstandards of beautyâ€
> 
> ...


 
You make some good points, including the bolded.


----------



## chayil0427 (Jan 28, 2007)

Isis said:
			
		

> I believe we have the most beautiful, versatile hair in the world. Haircare can be easy once we learn how. The same applies to all hair types.
> 
> God made our hair perfectly. The struggle some people have is working against their hair, trying to make it appear according to someone else's standard.
> 
> For me, I make sure my hair journey is totally fun and it has been. That's what makes it easy and something to look forward to.


 
I wanna second that.  God made us a SPECIAL ORDER!


----------



## Farida (Jan 28, 2007)

1 corinthians 11:14-15
Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, but that if a woman has *long hair, it is her glory*? For long hair is given to her as a covering.


Maybe I'm pessimistic but i don't think black women, and i mean women who don't have mixed ancestry were meant to have long hair. A few do, but majority don't. I grew up in Africa and I saw all sorts of women grow their hair natural and protect it and all and very few were able to get it bra strap and it took them almost 14 years give or take to do it. Some could never even get it to shoulder-length.

I'm tired of my hair too, and I don't buy the weather theory. People assume Africa is this unbearably hot place, but in all my life in East Africa I never experienced the wrath of heat close to that of american summers. Also, India is a really hot place yet it is home to some of the most long, straight or slightly wavy-haired women in the world. India is soooooooo hot i don't even know how people survive those summers and winds, I guess people adjust, get used to it.


----------



## Amarech (Jan 28, 2007)

> Also, India is a really hot place yet it is home to some of the *most long, straight or slightly wavy-haired women in the world.* India is soooooooo hot i don't even know how people survive those summers and winds, I guess people adjust, get used to it.



 I've always thought about this too.


----------



## Crissi (Jan 28, 2007)

vivmaiko said:
			
		

> 1 corinthians 11:14-15
> Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, but that if a woman has *long hair, it is her glory*? For long hair is given to her as a covering.
> 
> 
> ...


 
  i don't mean to be rude, that comment rubbed me the wrong way but IMO all can have long hair, why would God lay down one set of rules for one race, and another set of rules for another? God is a fair God, theres no fine print in the scripture lol. Maybe its just me but as i stated before, every black woman ive encoutered has the same story "i had long hair as a child and then i did *insert here* to it", and when i went to JA, i can surely say there was plenty women with long hair, and if it wasn't long it was most def healthy.

ETA: A great example of how long our hair can grow is LHCF, it shows a cross section of all women, all textures, relaxed and natural, some are black some are mixed, they all have beautiful healthy/long hair


----------



## Mahalialee4 (Jan 28, 2007)

This is really a deep deep matter. I believe that the questioner was asking something far deeper than many of us have ever questioned. I was just thinking about this and have been for sometime now. My conclusion:
1. There is something spiritual behind the struggle for black women to grow long hair with ease.
2. We were not born with "hard, rough, hard to comb or fragile hair or short pebbly hair.
3. I do not think that God created black women with hair that was unable to grow long. or show length or that the boundary was set for just a big ole afro for black women and all other women could have long hair. God is not partial.
4. I do believe that as far as genetics are concerned, that our hair texture is a trait that has been bred or engineered for the benefit of the powers that be who did not intend that we be seen as equally naturallydesirable, feel beautiful or feel empowered among our female human peers.
5. Why should black women be content NOT TO HAVE LONG HAIR any more than we all have 10 fingers and toes (unless we have something missing.)as if we are not entitled. Like there is a big sign that says "Not for you black women!"
6. I do not believe what the world teaches, that there are several races that evolved. I only believe in what the word says were created: families, tribes, nations, and tongues. Any other definition of mankind is one that has been manufactured to foment division, create chaos, and assure riches for some and poverty for others, and it is a monstrous lie that has held people in mental and economic bondage throughout many centuries. If we believe the lies then we have to ask why some some mysterious boundary line STOPPED AT THE DARK RACES!!! and use our minds and wisdom instead of swallowing "racist" theories".
7. Oh yes. I believe that there is a lot more to our hair than meets the natural eye.
I love our thick healthy bushy curly hair and it is good. But the not having ability to grow it long without jumping through hoops, I believe someone and something else is involved in this.  The curse of slavery,(not God's!) the curse of baldness, the curse of submission that was a result of European greed! That's what I believe. My opinion. It may not agree with Massa's explanation. bonjour


----------



## Crissi (Jan 28, 2007)

Mahalialee4 said:
			
		

> *This is really a deep deep matter. I believe that the questioner was asking something far deeper than many of us have ever questioned. I was just thinking about this and have been for sometime now. My conclusion:*
> *1. There is something spiritual behind the struggle for black women*
> *2. We were not born with "hard, rough, hard to comb or fragile hair*
> *3. I do not think that God created black women with hair that was unable to grow long. or show length or that the boundary was set for just a big ole afro for black women and all other women could have long hair. God is not partial.*
> ...


 
PREACH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! can i get an amen! in other words ITA lol

ETA: Oh the part in the red GREAT ANALOGY


----------



## Farida (Jan 28, 2007)

I still stand by the knowledge of having seen girls all my life struggle to grow their hair without success. Not girls with perms or texturizers or blow outs, but natural hair having their hair done by experienced african women.
 Traditional African women (I can't speak for all of africa) but in East Africa wore their hair cropped like a boy's. I've seen lots of children of all other races as young as 5 years old with hair down to their waists, yet I can't recall seeing a black little girl with hair that long, except a girl with mixed ancestry.
 I have read that 4a and 4b black hair has less cuticle layers than other types of hair and that is why it is tough to grow it long. I have watched my roommates and friends cut & grow their hair in a year. 

Yes, I am one who had "long" hair, by long meaning it was a few inches off my shoulder, but it took me 15 years to get there, something that takes my other race friends 3 or 4 years to do. 

I don't have a problem with the way black hair looks. I grew up around pple who all had the same hair and a few indians here and there. i just wish i could wash and wear it, sleep, swim, blow-dry etc I am sooo frustrated!


----------



## kimbaparis (Jan 28, 2007)

Taij said:
			
		

> Hit the nail on the head! Of course our hair wasn't meant to be this difficult. But like flower hair said (and a lot of others) we are trying to make our hair do something it was never designed to do. If you relax your hair, that process alone takes away so much from the natural hair, its a given that challenges arise.
> 
> On top of that, natural tightly coiled hair is already predisposed to breakage. Each bend, each turn of the coil creates a weak point that doesn't exist with straight hair.
> 
> ...




i agree, many of us are trying to make our hair behave against its nature, so we just have to accept that it will require a lot of work. my hair only wants to be short and kinky. after that it tangles. the reason my mother gave my sister and i relaxers when we were little was because of me--i cried and cried when she combed my hair because it was so knotty (my sisters is more 3c-4a ish) and she didn't want us to be different, but she either had to cut mine very short or deal with the tears and she didn't have time to braid it every night. but it's just hair. if we want to dye it pink or grow it long, or go bald does it really matter so much? it's a personal choice and one of the reasons i stay away from the natural boards is that i cannot handle the sanctimoniousnous. over hair!!!! 

but one thing i do have to say: if it weren't so hard to handle we all never would have found one another on this forum. i love the comraderie on this forum. i love the global sisterhood. i am often incredibly moved by the support people show one another when they have trying times. so i guess for that i need to thank my yucky old hair.


----------



## Isis (Jan 28, 2007)

Mahalialee4 said:
			
		

> This is really a deep deep matter. I believe that the questioner was asking something far deeper than many of us have ever questioned. I was just thinking about this and have been for sometime now. My conclusion:
> 1. There is something spiritual behind the struggle for black women to grow long hair with ease.
> 2. We were not born with "hard, rough, hard to comb or fragile hair or short pebbly hair.
> 3. I do not think that God created black women with hair that was unable to grow long. or show length or that the boundary was set for just a big ole afro for black women and all other women could have long hair. God is not partial.
> ...


Yours is a _very_ interesting post for many reasons...


----------



## nijilah (Jan 28, 2007)

I agree with the environment and socialization points.

Environment: You most likely have hard water in your house.  We have hard water but my in-laws have soft water.  Things like that make a difference in my hair.  

Socialization: When you fight against with what is natural, it is work.  I know many white girls with brown curly hair when we were children and now they have blond straight hair.  Trust me, it is a task for them to keep their hair looking like that!  And they also face breakage from the dying and blow drying straight everyday.


----------



## Amarech (Jan 28, 2007)

> *but one thing i do have to say: if it weren't so hard to handle we all never would have found one another on this forum. i love the comraderie on this forum. i love the global sisterhood. i am often incredibly moved by the support people show one another when they have trying times. *so i guess for that i need to thank my yucky old hair.



I really loved how you put that! Beautiful!!!!


----------



## firecracker (Jan 28, 2007)

I definitely disagree with the ideology that we were not meant to have long hair. 

Our hair comes/grows in all lengths, textures, etc.  
I come from a history of women that have/had long hair of varied textures with and without chemical treatment.  We go from long, short to bald without care in the world.  Its simply hair and it will grow.

I really never could understand the quest for a certain/one length or texture  As women we usually want to change it up no matter what and often.  Today you may want curls, tommorrow straight, yesterday shoulder length, next week ear length, next bsl w/ringlets, bald etc.   

I cannot fathom length retention issues but I am sure I would be concerned if my hair was falling out or something suddenly. 

I don't know I just think hair isn't that important and simply just hair.

Also not everyone joined this board due to hair issues or for their hair.  I sure didn't.  I joined after a coworker showed me the off topic funny stories.   
I have learned alot here about all kinds of things.


----------



## Belle Du Jour (Jan 28, 2007)

I want to believe that I can grow my hair to at least brastrap. 
I don't want to believe long hair is for every other race BUT black women.

But, I am conflicted.  I couldn't maintain my ends when I was natural.  No amount of protective styling, moisture, airdrying, conditioner washing, etc would help my hair grow out.  I babied my hair for over 3 years yet it still broke off at the same rate it grew.  I finally decided to relax thinking I could manage my ends better if they were straight. I'm seeing a little progress but nothing dramatic...yet.  So why do I have to go through all the mental gymnastics to grow hair?  I LOVE LHCF, but women of other races don't have to get help to grow their hair to brastrap.  That's like short for them.


----------



## firecracker (Jan 28, 2007)

classimami713 said:
			
		

> I want to believe that I can grow my hair to at least brastrap.
> I don't want to believe long hair is for every other race BUT black women.
> 
> But, I am conflicted. I couldn't maintain my ends when I was natural. No amount of protective styling, moisture, airdrying, conditioner washing, etc would help my hair grow out. I babied my hair for over 3 years yet it still broke off at the same rate it grew. I finally decided to relax thinking I could manage my ends better if they were straight. I'm seeing a little progress but nothing dramatic...yet. So why do I have to go through all the mental gymnastics to grow hair? I LOVE LHCF,* but women of other races don't have to get help to grow their hair to brastrap. *That's like short for them.


 
Don't believe the hype. I know and have personally encountered many caucasians w/thinning and won't grow past a certain length hair. 
Its not a black thang.


----------



## kally (Jan 28, 2007)

Alls I am saying is someone along the lines gave birth to the first child to have kiny hair whose parents did not, if they were the first ones with it and why? Why was that childs' hair different.? Was it something the parents did?  

Or did God create a whole nother group  of people from ground up like he did with Adam And Eve which we do not hear about. Then I could truely believe that this type of hair texture was meant to be.


----------



## kally (Jan 28, 2007)

MissMarie said:
			
		

> _Individual_'s hair did not change because of the climate. Genetic mutation and gene selection can take thousands of years. What happened is that people with certain variations had an advantage over others in different climates, as a result they were often healthier, they were more desirable as mates and their genes were more likely to be passed on to future generations. As a result, the characteristic that creates advantages for individual humans, and human populations, become more prevalent within that group of people. That doesn't mean that certain genes are completely eradicated, or that human populations were completed isolated and did not interact with populations that had different ranges of physical charecteristics. Thats why you see Europeans with eyes like central and east Asians, curly or even kinky hair like western Asians/north Africans, etc.
> There is not as much genetic adaptation today because humans have so much control over their environments, we have technology to help us and science to keep as alive. Even though you have African descendents not living in the same conditions as their ancestors their genetic info isn't going to suddenly change, that sort of change does not happen on the individual level and in populations it takes millenia.
> Our ancestors really were the only ones living in those types of environments long enough to develop those types of adaptations to the environment (which is why the greatest genetic diversity exists on the continent). Europe is a baby compared to Africa.
> 
> ...




Wow. Thank  you for the info. This really breaks it down.


----------



## kally (Jan 28, 2007)

vivmaiko said:
			
		

> 1 corinthians 11:14-15
> Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, but that if a woman has *long hair, it is her glory*? For long hair is given to her as a covering.
> 
> 
> ...



It is nice to hear from someone from a place that has the climate we are talking about.

Yes. I agree with some not meant to have long hair. Now I shaved my hair off and and growing out health hair. If I do not make it to BSL in five years I am giving up my journey and taking it as not meant to be. My hair  is growing in at 1/4 a inch a month not even the Average.


----------



## Whimsy (Jan 28, 2007)

Your hair and hair care is only as difficult as you choose to make it.


----------



## kally (Jan 28, 2007)

Mahalialee4 said:
			
		

> This is really a deep deep matter. I believe that the questioner was asking something far deeper than many of us have ever questioned. I was just thinking about this and have been for sometime now. My conclusion:
> 1. There is something spiritual behind the struggle for black women to grow long hair with ease.
> 2. We were not born with "hard, rough, hard to comb or fragile hair or short pebbly hair.
> 3. I do not think that God created black women with hair that was unable to grow long. or show length or that the boundary was set for just a big ole afro for black women and all other women could have long hair. God is not partial.
> ...



Thank you so much. This is exactly what I meant

You can keep your routine simple when it comes to hair care, but there a lot of things you have to avoid doing to it to keep it from being damaged.


----------



## Belle Du Jour (Jan 28, 2007)

Whimsy said:
			
		

> Your hair and hair care is only as difficult as you choose to make it.



I disagree.


----------



## jjjackie (Jan 28, 2007)

Hey all, I am new here and honestly this topic was the one that made me subscribe. I an natural and before going natural I did not frequent hair boards and considered my hair long (a little past shoulder lenght). Now I see my hair as short but I still love doing it. The one question I have about this topic is, do people see the texture of our hair as the problem or the fact that it takes more care for it to grow? What I mean is if our hair (4a/b specifically) was the same texture but grew to bsl lenght easily would people not still complain about the texture? The grass will always seem greener if we continue to look at our hair as the problem instead of the lack of understanding of how to properly care for our hair as the problem.


----------



## Belle Du Jour (Jan 28, 2007)

jjjackie said:
			
		

> Hey all, I am new here and honestly this topic was the one that made me subscribe. I an natural and before going natural I did not frequent hair boards and considered my hair long (a little past shoulder lenght). Now I see my hair as short but I still love doing it. *The one question I have about this topic is, do people see the texture of our hair as the problem or the fact that it takes more care for it to grow? *What I mean is if our hair (4a/b specifically) was the same texture but grew to bsl lenght easily would people not still complain about the texture? The grass will always seem greener if we continue to look at our hair as the problem instead of the lack of understanding of how to properly care for our hair as the problem.



To answer your question, I have *never *hated my natural hair texture.  I hate that my hair does not grow easily.


----------



## Mahalialee4 (Jan 28, 2007)

Case in point: Some East Islanders from Fiji, Tahiti and Hawaii have some of the bushiest, thickest hair you could ever wish for. The point is it grows long and ladies, you have to admit, it is the most beautiful hair on the planet in terms of thickess and lushness. I love the texture of my hair. Even if it were kinkier and thicker or coarser, I would love it. The only complaint I have is the fact that it does not show that length without more effort than others of the same family of man. I would like to have the texture of my hair to my butt! if I choose to grow it that long and I ain't pretending to not want it that way. I really do not get it when women act as if they are happy to be restricted. Like, I only have 2 fingers on each hand and I wouldn't have it any other way, or I have an inch gap between my teeth, but that is how God made me......or I have no breasts, no hips and a totally flat butt....and I am totally okay with it....right!!!!", God did not make us with hard, brittle, peppercorns, that struggle to get to shoulder length and snap off, even as original African tribes that never mixed....come on now...if he did, you would pop out that way!!! How many black men do you see with their hair snapping off all over the place?  bonjour


----------



## Aubergold (Jan 28, 2007)

It's not that our hair is not designed to be long, but it is not designed to show length.  Many of us think of long hair as long and flowing when usually 3-4 type hair does not do that.  We have the ability to have long, big hair but not long and flowing/blowing in the wind hair.


----------



## kally (Jan 28, 2007)

jjjackie said:
			
		

> Hey all, I am new here and honestly this topic was the one that made me subscribe. I an natural and before going natural I did not frequent hair boards and considered my hair long (a little past shoulder lenght). Now I see my hair as short but I still love doing it. The one question I have about this topic is, do people see the texture of our hair as the problem or the fact that it takes more care for it to grow? What I mean is if our hair (4a/b specifically) was the same texture but grew to bsl lenght easily would people not still complain about the texture? The grass will always seem greener if we continue to look at our hair as the problem instead of the lack of understanding of how to properly care for our hair as the problem.



Welcome Jjjackie!!! I myself see the problem as taking more care to grow and maintain.


----------



## navsegda (Jan 28, 2007)

Mahalialee4 said:
			
		

> Case in point: Some East Islanders from Fiji, Tahiti and Hawaii have some of the bushiest, thickest hair you could ever wish for. The point is it grows long and ladies, you have to admit, it is the most beautiful hair on the planet in terms of thickess and lushness. I love the texture of my hair. Even if it were kinkier and thicker or coarser, I would love it. The only complaint I have is the fact that it does not show that length without more effort than others of the same family of man. I would like to have the texture of my hair to my butt! if I choose to grow it that long and I ain't pretending to not want it that way. I really do not get it when women act as if they are happy to be restricted. Like, I only have 2 fingers on each hand and I wouldn't have it any other way, or I have an inch gap between my teeth, but that is how God made me......or I have no breasts, no hips and a totally flat butt....and I am totally okay with it....right!!!!", God did not make us with *hard, brittle, peppercorns*, that struggle to get to shoulder length and snap off, even as original African tribes that never mixed....come on now...if he did, you would pop out that way!!! How many black men do you see with their hair snapping off all over the place?  bonjour



LMFAO.    Peppercorns?  That's a new one.  *falls over*


----------



## SSBD (Jan 28, 2007)

kally said:
			
		

> So true and when it comes to hair, people really get offended.
> 
> I am sorry. I love being an AA woman, love everything about it. I Just have such a hard time excepting my hair. Every since I was little girl I have wanted the long locks and has been a huge self-esteem problem for me. I was never able to have the nice little ponytails that little girls wore. I have never had hair past my neck, so it just does not come easy for me. my hair breaks as it grows. I have applied all the methods on here and still can not achieve it, but that is just me. Many on here have been able to and I am very happy for you. I keeps my hope up.


 
I feel the same way...and it's hard because i am transitioning and i really wondering why can't i except my natural hair...because i love long staight and long curly hair like loose curly hair...and i was like do i have self hatred or what...because as i really do like being black...but i really don't like my hair and i understand we should just except it...i've been natural before and i would not go outside with a wash and go, my hair would be so shrunken and short i had to straighten it...and i remember admiring the ppl in the wash bowl whos hair was wavy or curly


----------



## silvergirl (Jan 28, 2007)

.....
sigh..

its just hair, thats all it is. simply a covering for our heads, much like our skin it changed over a very long period of time designed to protect us. simply a by -product.
if someone wants to burn it, perm it, curl it, or straighten it making it do something its not meant to be. then spend their life crying about it, thats their problem not mine. 

(i dont believe in "god" the way most people do so i dont subcribe to the whole "god" is fair or "god" wouldnt do us like that theories.)


----------



## Mahalialee4 (Jan 28, 2007)

I do believe in God but, hair characteristics are determined by the choices or lack thereof of men and women when it comes to mating.  IF i DIDN'T believe in God , I would understand that it has been controlled genetic breeding and DNA that determines hair characteristics potential and that it is done by man. In either case, our hair texture, length, thickness aside from what we do to it with chemicals or lack of hair care, DID NOT JUST HAPPEN. I explained my belief on the motives and repercussions in greater depth on the Off Topic Discussion : Refer my thread http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=114355
Some women really experience a psychological sense of loss and rejection over the hair length issue and feel somehow someway that there is something wrong with THEM BECAUSE OF THEIR ANCESTRY and that God rejected them! These are the ladies and young black girls that I am concerned about. They are my concern because I am a woman who has explored the issue spiritually and emotionally and want to share some of my insights in the hope that some will be set free from self hatred.


----------



## PaperClip (Jan 28, 2007)

Mahalialee4 said:
			
		

> I do believe in God but, hair characteristics are determined by the choices or lack thereof of men and women when it comes to mating. IF i DIDN'T believe in God , I would understand that it has been controlled genetic breeding and DNA that determines hair characteristics potential and that it is done by man. In either case, our hair texture, length, thickness aside from what we do to it with chemicals or lack of hair care, DID NOT JUST HAPPEN. I explained my belief on the motives and repercussions in greater depth on the Off Topic Discussion : Refer my thread http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=114355
> *Some women really experience a psychological sense of loss and rejection over the hair length issue and feel somehow someway that there is something wrong with THEM BECAUSE OF THEIR ANCESTRY and that God rejected them! These are the ladies and young black girls that I am concerned about.* They are my concern because I am a woman who has explored the issue spiritually and emotionally and want to share some of my insights in the hope that some will be set free from self hatred.


 
I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you're talking good on that right theah!


----------



## Miss*Tress (Jan 28, 2007)

silvergirl said:
			
		

> if someone wants to burn it, perm it, curl it, or straighten it making it do something its not meant to be. then spend their life crying about it, thats their problem not mine.
> 
> (i dont believe in "god" the way most people do so i dont subcribe to the whole "god" is fair or "god" wouldnt do us like that theories.)


I'm right there with you, *silvergirl*.


----------



## CaramelMiSS (Jan 28, 2007)

Well in regards to Dna and genetic makeup my professor was telling us that the first human was 200,000 years ago.  He said it takes about 20000 years for dna to actually change and adapt to environment.  There is this bird that is native to some island that darwin studied on I think it is a finch.  Anyway one type of the finches had flatter beaks and another had thicker beaks. He proposed that one with the thicker beak could crack harder shells that the ones with thinner beaks could not crack when in times of drought.  So the ones with thicker beaks had adopted better and would evenutally make the ones with thinner beaks obsolete.

With the hair concept at one point in time our hair was all the same.  I was always wondering if people who live near the equator naturally have kinker hair then why don't people in India have it even though they are just as darker if not darker.  Well it turns out that in India they have alot of rainy seasons that could contribute to the the texture of their hair being continuously exposed to water.  In Africa we were not exposed to water like that.  So I agree with the person who said that our hair stays close to our head to shield us from the heat.  Another I like is that blacks can stay in the sun and not get the affects of cancer because our skin is designed to take UVA and UVB rays.  Just because our hair coils does not mean that it is not long.  

Think about it why when you live in heat arse weather would want hair down your back????  You would burn up and end up cutting it off anyway.  But if you have long hair that coils up closer to your head and stands up off your back it would be alot better.


----------



## Mahalialee4 (Jan 28, 2007)

CaramelMiss: What are your thoughts now that they (the "Science" people...no...not the "fruit scientists! "lolol....are proving that blacks get skin cancer and are more readily damaged than whites and are encouraging blacks to lather up with the sunscreen?
In the hottest countries, have you noticed that often they wear a lot of clothing....men and women, and keep their heads covered to stay cool? Even in the desert. The Arabs do not have a problem with long hair in the hottest driest areas, why would we? We could braid it up and tie it up just like the Rastas do or the Arabs. You think? Where would the moisture come from? body heat. Just like the bros in the States with their wool head coverings in the hot weather and them bros can grow some hair!!! JMO.
Meant to add: Africa was a rainforest!!!! It was not one big desert wasteland...With some of the most lush vegetation possible! The wastelands that we see now are partially due to land erosion by mining, and raping of the land by European pillagers that has created drought and famine. As far as the water theory, I will get back to you. Thanks for commenting, it really keeps me on my toes! bless ya! bonjour


----------



## Farida (Jan 28, 2007)

India does have rainy monsoons, but central african rainforests are nothing to mess with! It rains there continuously for months...have u read the poisonwood bible? it's a great read. People aroud the equator include peoples as different as kenyans and colombians. Kenyans have kinky hair, and i don't think pre-spain colombians had kinky hair.


----------



## navsegda (Jan 28, 2007)

CaramelMiSS said:
			
		

> Well in regards to Dna and genetic makeup my professor was telling us that the first human was 200,000 years ago.  He said it takes about 20000 years for dna to actually change and adapt to environment.  There is this bird that is native to some island that darwin studied on I think it is a finch.  Anyway one type of the finches had flatter beaks and another had thicker beaks. He proposed that one with the thicker beak could crack harder shells that the ones with thinner beaks could not crack when in times of drought.  So the ones with thicker beaks had adopted better and would evenutally make the ones with thinner beaks obsolete.
> 
> With the hair concept at one point in time our hair was all the same.  I was always wondering if people who live near the equator naturally have kinker hair then why don't people in India have it even though they are just as darker if not darker.  Well it turns out that in India they have alot of rainy seasons that could contribute to the the texture of their hair being continuously exposed to water.  In Africa we were not exposed to water like that.  So I agree with the person who said that our hair stays close to our head to shield us from the heat.  Another I like is that blacks can stay in the sun and not get the affects of cancer because our skin is designed to take UVA and UVB rays.  Just because our hair coils does not mean that it is not long.
> 
> Think about it why when you live in heat arse weather would want hair down your back????  You would burn up and end up cutting it off anyway.  But if you have long hair that coils up closer to your head and stands up off your back it would be alot better.


I remember learning about the finch beak morphogenesis in my very first neuroscience class!  We talked about evolution first so it was one of the first lectures.

Also, people need to realize that climate has changed over the years.  It was a LOT hotter in places in Africa when civilization was first occurring than it is today (although some scientists believe that global warming will lead Africa right back to this point eventually).  There has been a huge climate shift in several places, though, not just Africa over the eons.


----------



## Mahalialee4 (Jan 28, 2007)

They lied to us about the water ladies!!! Water is an abundant feature of Africa! What have they done to our water? Where did it go? What is really going on? Our hair had nothing to do with lack of water in the Motherland. Africa was and is surrounded and rich with large water areas: The real question is, after Europe divided up, sacked the diamonds, gold etc etc. what did they do to the water supplies that were already there and what have they been doing to make sure there is a "water crisis"? ---if your answer is "too many black people", don't worry, they are working on it!
a.	Deserts - Sahara, Kalahari 
b.	Lakes - Victoria, Nyasa, Tanganyika 
c.	Rivers - Nile, Niger, Zambezi 
d.	Mountains - Kilimanjaro, Kenya, Atlas 
Surrounded by three oceans, North Atlantic, South Atlantic, Indian Oceans,
Two Seas: Mediterranean and Red Sea

List of African Rivers: 
â€¢	South Africa: Berg - South Africa 
â€¢	Breede - South Africa 
â€¢	Cuanza - Angola 
â€¢	Fish - Namibia 
â€¢	Groot - South Africa 
â€¢	Ihosy River - Madagascar 
â€¢	Kuiseb - Namibia 
â€¢	Kunene - Angola (as Cunene), Namibia, Botswana 
â€¢	Kwando - Namibia, also known as Linyanti and Chobe in places 
â€¢	Limpopo - Mozambique, South Africa, Zimbabwe, Botswana 
â€¢	Mangoky River - Madagascar 
â€¢	Mania River - Madagascar 
â€¢	Molopo - Botswana, South Africa 
â€¢	Okavango - Botswana, Namibia, Angola (as "Cubango") 
â€¢	Onilahy River - Madagascar 
â€¢	Orange - South Africa, Lesotho, Namibia 
â€¢	Tugela - South Africa 
â€¢	Vaal - South Africa 
â€¢	Zambezi - Angola, Zambia, Namibia, Zimbabwe, Mozambique 
Central AfricaCongo 
o	Kwango 
o	Kasai 
o	Lualaba 
o	Lomami 
o	Ubangi - Democratic Republic of the Congo, Republic of the Congo, Central African Republic (as "Oubangui") 
ï‚§	Uele 
ï‚§	Mbomou 
â€¢	Gabon 
â€¢	Kouilou-Niari - Congo 
â€¢	Mbini 
â€¢	Ntem 
â€¢	Nyanga - Gabon 
â€¢	OgoouÃ© - Gabon 
â€¢	East Africa: Awash - Ethiopia 
â€¢	Jubba - Somalia 
o	Dawa - Ethiopia 
o	Gebele - Ethiopia 
â€¢	Kerio - Kenya 
â€¢	Maputo - Mozambique 
â€¢	Mara - Kenya, Tanzania 
â€¢	Omo - Ethiopia 
â€¢	Rufiji - Tanzania 
â€¢	Ruvuma (Rovuma) - Tanzania, Mozambique 
â€¢	Shebelle - Ethiopia, Somalia 
â€¢	Tana - Kenya 
â€¢	Victoria Nile - Uganda 
â€¢	Albert Nile - Uganda 
â€¢	Kazinga Channel - Uganda 
â€¢	Kagera River (Rwanda, Tanzania, Uganda) 
West Africa
â€¢	Bandama - CÃ´te d'Ivoire 
â€¢	Cavally - Liberia, CÃ´te d'Ivoire 
â€¢	Gambia - Gambia, Senegal 
â€¢	Niger - Nigeria, Benin, Niger, Mali, Guinea 
â€¢	Oueme - Benin 
â€¢	Saint Paul - Liberia 
â€¢	Sanaga - Cameroun 
â€¢	Senegal - Senegal, Mauritania, Mali 
â€¢	Volta - Ghana, Burkina Faso 
â€¢	Benue - Nigeria 
North Africa
â€¢	Nile - Egypt, Sudan 
o	Atbarah River - Sudan, Ethiopia 
o	Blue Nile - Sudan, Ethiopia 
o	Didessa River - Ethiopia 
o	Mountain Nile - Sudan 
o	White Nile - Sudan 
â€¢	Bou Regreg - Morocco 
â€¢	Draa River - Algeria, Morocco 
â€¢	Moulouya River - Morocco 
â€¢	Oum Er-Rbia River - Morocco 
â€¢	Sebou River - Morocco

Too hot and dry and no water!!! No that is what it has been cleverly reduced to. Did you know that they have even put patents on the crops that can be grown and the natural herbal plants for research and are starving out the people as a byproduct? But I will save that for another forum!  so..... http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?p=1918699#post1918699


Our hair is naturally dry and won't grow because Africa is such a dry country with no access to water, indeed!!!!
bonjour


----------



## Mahalialee4 (Jan 28, 2007)

Maps of Africa:
http://www.africaguide.com/images/afrmap.gif
http://www.africaspeaks.com/maps/largemap.html
http://exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/students/curriculum/m20/activity2.phpPICTURES
http://map.africa-atlas.com/
http://www.enchantedlearning.com/africa/rivers/outlinemap/
http://www.enchantedlearning.com/africa/rivers/outlinemaplabeled/
This does not include all the waterfalls and tropical rain fall. Hope this helps. bonjour


----------



## CurliDiva (Jan 28, 2007)

A very DEEP topic -- I was thinking about this the other day -- I don't have the answer, but more questions:

*Could our collective challenge at growing out (and more importantly RETAINING length) have more to do with styling choices?*

Many black little girls or young guys with the long natural conrows and ponytails follow a simple ROUTINE and styling. 

No perms, no weaves, no pressing, no braided extensions.

*Could our collective challenge retaining length be due to environmental defiencenis in our diet and lifestyle?*

Blacks suffer from diabetics, hyertension, and other environtmetal stressors and diet choices that can't provide the ideally body condition for growth. Maybe this show more in black women' HAIR because of menstruation and hormonal flux than with black men and children.

*Could our collective challenge retaining length be due to collective WORLD mindset that our beauty and HAIR is not improtant, that we have internalized these thoguhts?*

The idea that our hair has to be _tamed or_ _fixed_, is very profitable! Black women send more money on haircare/services than any other group, yet we still have many challenges and frustrations. We are the only ones who want to break this dependence on products, services, etc. The question of being mixed (we're all mixed to some degree) that black women get if they have long hair - proves to me that we still have trouble beleiving that BALCK women can have long hair. 

Just my humble thoughts!


----------



## Mahalialee4 (Jan 28, 2007)

If you believe that your hair is a symbol of rejection, bias and then tied to your spiritual belief system; that it was and is an eternal badge of shame or at best a cross to bear or even something so personal about yourself that has to be denied, hidden, destroyed or forgiven, then it certainly will affect how others (your grandmama, mama and you) treated it) and also something that should be punished, beaten into submission and starved to death, through refusing to water and feed it!!!yes, I said it, cause it had no value and you just wished it would go away and you buried it with wigs, weaves and headrags, and smothered it with grease and tried to burn it with extreme! heat and caustic chemicals.....yeah!  to all your questions. 
lol bonjour


----------



## Isis (Jan 28, 2007)

Mahalialee said:
			
		

> Meant to add: Africa was a rainforest!!!! It was not one big desert wasteland


ITA with this. 

Some of these great posts (I love this discussion!) brings me back to my previous post about the Biblical flood, which science acknowledges did indeed occur).  I've learned that the whole planet before the flood was tropical and temperate--no defined seasons, no hot deserts--it was an even temperature all year long, everywhere.  There was moisture in the air at all times, like it is in Hawaii or Tahiti.  This was due to the firmament (a thick, permanent cloud covering) which protected humans from direct exposure to the sun and held the moisture in for abundant plant life.  So what did our hair look like then?  Was it the same as now or did it naturally flourish with all of the daily moisture?  

We as humans have all genetically mutated since the Biblical flood which some scholars say chronologically was only a few thousand years ago while some scientists say was around 10,000 years ago.   I"ve learned that some of these changes were due to radiation exposure.  One major change was a much shorter life span.  It's possible there were many changes that haven't been fully explored...


----------



## kally (Jan 28, 2007)

Mahalialee4 said:
			
		

> If you believe that your hair is a symbol of rejection, bias and then tied to your spiritual belief system; that it was and is an eternal badge of shame or at best a cross to bear or even something so personal about yourself that has to be denied, hidden, destroyed or forgiven, then it certainly will affect how others (your grandmama, mama and you) treated it) and also something that should be punished, beaten into submission and starved to death, through refusing to water and feed it!!!yes, I said it, cause it had no value and you just wished it would go away and you buried it with wigs, weaves and headrags, and smothered it with grease and tried to burn it with extreme! heat and caustic chemicals.....yeah!  to all your questions.
> lol bonjour



Girl your responses have been right on point.

All of the reponders on here  have really given me things to think about. It is very interesting to read the different views. All of  these responses have opened my eyes to really think out side the box.


----------



## BrownSkin2 (Jan 28, 2007)

Isis said:
			
		

> ITA with this.
> 
> Some of these great posts (I love this discussion!) brings me back to my previous post about the Biblical flood, which science acknowledges did indeed occur). *I've learned that the whole planet before the flood was tropical and temperate--no defined seasons, no hot deserts--it was an even temperature all year long, everywhere. There was moisture in the air at all times, like it is in Hawaii or Tahiti. This was due to the firmament (a thick, permanent cloud covering) which protected humans from direct exposure to the sun and held the moisture in for abundant plant life. So what did our hair look like then? Was it the same as now or did it naturally flourish with all of the daily moisture? *
> 
> We as humans have all genetically mutated since the Biblical flood which some scholars say chronologically was only a few thousand years ago while some scientists say was around 10,000 years ago. I"ve learned that some of these changes were due to radiation exposure. One major change was a much shorter life span. It's possible there were many changes that haven't been fully explored...


 
I like this thread.  It is realllly deep! 

Before the flood, scientist tend to think that the earth was just one big continent.  I wonder if everyone and their hair was the same, since it was one big continent?


----------



## Mahalialee4 (Jan 28, 2007)

You are right on Isis. Even the Bible tells us in Genesis that in the beginning it had not rained upon the earth, but that a mist used to come up from the ground and of course everything good to eat etc. flourished.

Ah, we have a think tank going here! (smile) Great stuff!!!


----------



## AmyInAtl (Jan 28, 2007)

i sort of always feel like the voice of opposition, but I agree w/ what the  poster gently stated, except i will say it louder, this hair is alot of work and stress. coaxing, pampering and babying is what we are doing to get our hair to grow. personally, i will be happy when the day comes, when i will be liberated from thinking about my hair, for more than even a hour out of the day. i wish we lived in a culture, were we could rock natural hair, even if u let it matte and still be beautiful. i am tired of all the extra money and everything else my hair requires. i am tired of seeing other peoples hair and wishing mine was like that, wishing it was longer, a softer manageable texture, i am tired of hard synthetic hair, expensive human hair.
i did go on a hair strike, for 9 mos, it was beautiful. i did not comb, hardly washed, just slept on that stuff and that was it, i did not grease, condition, none of that. the most i did was let warm water run on my head, when i was in the shower. no detangling, not shower comb, no finger detangling, nope. 
that was the best hair serenity i ever had. i think i may go there again.
it also was the healthiest period my hair ever had, yes i was natural.


----------



## deltagyrl (Jan 28, 2007)

I don't know if I was frustrated w/ my hair or frustrated w/ the misinformation I'd received about how to take care of it.

I have learned to love my NG when I used to hate it and think it was ugly.  I no longer believe that bone straight hair is the end all to beat all either.  I much rather prefer texture now.

I'm growing.....and learning.   My hair is growing right along with me.


----------



## JazzyDez (Jan 28, 2007)

wow. All I have to say is great thread. I've read every single post. Such thought-provoking and unique responses.


----------



## Hidden_Angel (Jan 28, 2007)

I find this subject very funny and  refreshing at the same time..
I would throw out some theories but I don't feel the need to get into any fights on here right now..


----------



## spiceykitten (Jan 28, 2007)

First my hair is not your hair. I do not subscribe to OUR hair. You are not my sister or family member.

Second, in terms of nappy, curly, coily etc hair that is typically found among women of color or ethnic women. Well, I fall in this category.

My hair is BEAUTIFUL!! It is even beautiful as I sit here and type with it all its nappy glory. It is nice when I comb it and glorious when I style it. I look like a princess! In fact, I am a princess!

My hair is only DIFFICULT when I try to do something that goes against the natural formation of it.  I do not try to do this often so my hair is always BEAUTIFUL.

MY HAIR! MY HAIR! My hair is beautiful. I say this everyday and guess what I believe it and know it. God made no mistake when he made me.


----------



## BrownSkin2 (Jan 28, 2007)

I've been natural for a year, and I only have 5-6 inches of hair to show for it.  I had relaxed for over 20 years and my hair suffered and thinned out as a result of improper hair care.  I know my hair is healthier and thicker by being natural.  I love my natural hair and once it is styled, I like how it looks, especially my braidout.  But everytime I wash and detangle my hair I contemplate relaxing.  I do find myself asking "why did God create hair like this."  I can hardly ever get a comb thru it, even when it it wet and full of conditioner.  It is really a struggle. We do have to work so hard just to attain growth.  The only way that I seem to attain growth is through protective styling and that gets old.  So what gives??


----------



## ShaniKeys (Jan 28, 2007)

I don't think our hair is difficult, I think we lack the expertise - or at least not enough - to take proper care of it, and that is something we need to work on harder. All we've tried to do - most of us - is fight against (=weaves, relaxing, texturizing,...etc) our natural hair instead of finding proper ways to take care of it. The reason why we feel it is difficult is because we constantly compare it with hair from people of other ethnic backgrounds (whites, asians, latino's, indians). And that comparison leads to several conclusions: we can't comb our hair, it doesn't grow just as fast, it doesn't fall down...etc. While we should be wondering: was our hair meant to be combed? does it really not grow just as fast? how can hair that curls UP fall DOWN?! I think we problematize our hair.


----------



## spiceykitten (Jan 28, 2007)

Shanikeys:

I really like your statement. I do not know how to use the quote thing, unless I would quote you.

I agree with everything you wrote except with "OUR" hair. You and everyone knows I do not subscribe to such theory. Yet, right on point. Your post makes a lot of sense and I find it something to be learned from. 

I thank you such a post.


----------



## Hidden_Angel (Jan 28, 2007)

spiceykitten said:
			
		

> Shanikeys:
> 
> I really like your statement. I do not know how to use the quote thing, unless I would quote you.
> 
> ...


 

I so agree


----------



## kally (Jan 28, 2007)

spiceykitten said:
			
		

> Shanikeys:
> 
> I really like your statement. I do not know how to use the quote thing, unless I would quote you.
> 
> ...




So instead of the word "our" what word should we use? Surely we can not list everyone by name and hair  their type. When I said "our" I meant it to related to how the majority of African American's hair texture is.


----------



## Mystic (Jan 28, 2007)

I was just about to comment on how exciting it is to read a thread about disliking nappy hair and the thread is so thought provoking, respectful and insightful.  I hope it doesn't take a turn towards to dark side where the thread has to be closed......


----------



## spiceykitten (Jan 28, 2007)

Kally:

I do not care what you use. I just do not subscribe to hair typing. It is my belief system.

In addition, I am not AA. I know majority on here are so you can use whatever terminology makes you feel comfortable.

Yet, to be honest is there a need to list everyone and their hair type? Most people just care or want to know that Black women can grow their hair to long lengths. In addition, most people look like other hair types to me. So the whole hair typing confuses me.

The main theme of this board is that Black women can grow their hair to long lengths. Not 4a or 4b. There are some women with 2c to type 3..well are they less Black. I think not. In addition, some stuff here does not not work for everyone. As you might have notice there are some women who are 4a to 4b with hair down their back and some whose hair will not move a inch. So how is that "our hair". I think this theory needs to be rethought so people can get their goals for "their hair" in prospective and feel less depressed when their hair will not grow to the length they expected or start being happy with what is on their head.

I think people should start learning to say "my hair". I think if people start to say "my hair" there will be less people disliking their hair or wishing for other people hair. Most importantly saying "my hair" helps you develop a personal relationship with your hair and truly allows you to learn what is best for your hair.


----------



## kally (Jan 28, 2007)

spiceykitten said:
			
		

> Kally:
> 
> I do not care what you use. I just do not subscribe to hair typing. It is my belief system.
> 
> ...



 The point I am trying to make is how did "_my_ " texture hair come about.( Me being AA and all) Many people do love their hair this I am aware of, but that does not mean that is  easy to maintain. By no means did I mean to relate myself to you. You have made it perfectly clear about how you feel about your hair and what you paid your $5.00 for. 

Maybe one day I will be able to look past the hair typing as you so graciously can.


----------



## brittanynic16 (Jan 28, 2007)

spiceykitten said:
			
		

> Kally:
> 
> I do not care what you use. I just do not subscribe to hair typing. It is my belief system.
> 
> ...


 
ohhh...I really like this. I have been visiting this and other hair boards for years, and I don't think that I have ever heard anyone say anything like this but, I totally agree.


----------



## Candy1978 (Jan 28, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> Maybe this is just one of those mysteries that we'll never know. I know it's hard for some to believe, but there are many black women who have the looser textures that are not mixed and cannot trace white, Indian, or other ancestry in their past (this of course doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but if they can go back for several generations and not be able to trace anything, then that's good enough for me). Not all of us have coarse hair. And like I said, I have yet to see or hear of any black person (maybe you or someone else has) with the "kinkier" texture now who was born with the hair this exact same way. We may never know and all we can do is accept it.


 
When I meet God face to face  I plan on having an in depth conversation about black hair....lol ( for real)


----------



## seraphinelle (Jan 28, 2007)

'Our' hair doesn't imply that we are all expected to have the same hair.

'Our' is collectively, black people.

Learn to style OUR hair (as black people)

Learn to car for OUR hair.

Never once did I think the poster mean that you and everybody else has the same hair,

As far as the typing;with the million and one possible regimens, it kind of narrows down what can and will work for you if you can find as close of a hair twin as possible.


----------



## spiceykitten (Jan 28, 2007)

Seri:

My dear, you have missed the whole point. I understand that theory but I put a flip side on things. I think outside the box.

Thus, I respect your opinion but I have mine also and make no apologies for it. I state what I think and what I believe, so I take people's thoughts like pennies in a bag but also think what I can learn from it.

Obviously, you do not know the spice!


----------



## seraphinelle (Jan 29, 2007)

SK,

Honey, you must have me mistaken because I wasn't looking for an apology.  This is open dialogue.

And I don't 'know' you, LOL, but ^^^there's 2 more pennies for ya

 

Seraphim


----------



## spiceykitten (Jan 29, 2007)

Seri:

Thank you! I am two cents richer! LOL

I never turn down money.


----------



## FlowerHair (Jan 29, 2007)

kally said:
			
		

> I have a love/ hate relationship with my hair and it is beautiful. I do not try to change its natural state to much and I fully believe we can have long hair, the proof is on this board it just seems we have to work so much harder at it.
> 
> *I know for a fact that once God puts a curse one someone it can be for generations to come. Take Eve for instance: Child birth was suppose to be painless, once she took the apple God said that she would experience pain and joy at the same time. All women have suffered because of it . Jesus Christ died for our sins so that we may be forgiven I fully believe this. Also there are somethings that I feel God have set in place due to past actions. This has to be one of them. Look how different our hair is.*
> 
> ...


 
I hope you aren't trying to say that our hair is a curse?   Because it's not! If Africans have tightly coiled hair it is a *blessing* because without it their heads would boil in the scorching sun. 

And all this talk about babies' hair: babies don't need the grown up structure of hair, because they are protected in the womb. Baby hair lack the core of the hair that we have. So do white, Asian etc babies' hair. Hair consists of three layers and the center is not present in babies' hair. Just as our eye sight is not completely developed at birth, our hair needs to develop too. Our hair was *meant* to be this way, people! And it's only ugly if we think it's ugly.

And coily hair is only a curse if straight hair is the norm


----------



## sugarose (Jan 29, 2007)

Mahalialee4 said:
			
		

> This is really a deep deep matter. I believe that the questioner was asking something far deeper than many of us have ever questioned. I was just thinking about this and have been for sometime now. My conclusion:
> 1. There is something spiritual behind the struggle for black women to grow long hair with ease.
> 2. We were not born with "hard, rough, hard to comb or fragile hair or short pebbly hair.
> 3. I do not think that God created black women with hair that was unable to grow long. or show length or that the boundary was set for just a big ole afro for black women and all other women could have long hair. God is not partial.
> ...


 
I couldn't have said it better.


----------



## navsegda (Jan 29, 2007)

FlowerHair said:
			
		

> And all this talk about babies' hair: babies don't need the grown up structure of hair, because they are protected in the womb. Baby hair lack the core of the hair that we have. So do white, Asian etc babies' hair. Hair consists of three layers and the center is not present in babies' hair. Just as our eye sight is not completely developed at birth, our hair needs to develop too.


I get that hair needs to develop and I am not referring to the hair they have in the womb; I am talking about the smooth, straight or very loosely coiled hair that they are allowed to continue have growing from their scalps for months (sometimes a few years AFTER each layer of the hair has formed) before all of a sudden a new texture comes along.  I know that there are changes in the brain and the body that occur from birth onward.  Small babies also do not have myelinated nerves because they do not yet need the fast propagation of action potentials until later.  However, my entire point is that most babies' hair of other races remains the smooth, loosely coiled texture that it is even after it is fully developed later on, regardless of later developments in their body, but a lot of black hair does not.


----------



## ebonylocs (Jan 29, 2007)

Many of the replies to this thread make me sick at heart. I can't believe what I'm reading.

Let me just make one thing absolutely clear: THERE IS NOTHING INNATELY GOOD ABOUT LONG HAIR. Hair, like every other part of the body, evolved for a function and evolved into its current form because of the function it served - in the environment it served it in. That is all.

To hear some of you speak, one would think you had never seen a beautiful woman with short hair. Halle Berry anyone? Marilyn Munroe?? - with her long hair she was just another pretty girl - she cut it off into a curly little blonde bob and became a bombshell.

Is our hair really that bad? I sure as heck have never thought so. As a matter of fact, many times I look around me (e.g. surrounded by whites, Indians and Pakistanis on the train) and I am bored of seeing lank, limp, greasy, straight, heavy hair. Why should we all have hair like that? It would be dang boring. When I look around me in situations like that, usually I'm thinking, "Wouldn't it be great to see some fluffy heads of gravity defying, upward growing, textured hair in this place?"

Can you imagine it - if many many black women were to wear their hair in big *** afros (maybe with a flower to the side - like the Fijians do), high puffs, low puffs, twists, dreads, cornrows in intricate designs. Don't you think that would be a great spectacle? We would have them staring at us in awe. There is strength in numbers - so when all you see around you is hair that looks one way, you start to wonder what's wrong with yours why it doesn't look like that. The answer is: nothing is wrong with yours - it is what it is and it is beautiful. 

I'm not saying that natural is the only way to go (I have relaxed hair myself). I'm just saying that seeing our hair all around us styled attractively in the way it naturally grows would be a positive thing for many many women with unnecessary inferiority complexes. So the next time you're surrounded by people of other races - pls try to imagine the image I painted above.

Again: THERE IS NOTHING INNATELY GOOD ABOUT LONG HAIR. It is not necessary for your health, your happiness, or your beauty. It's just something we have *chosen* to pursue - for whatever reason. So don't take it up like the Cross of Calvary and use it to beat yourself - this should be fun. Or else, don't do it at all, and just let your hair be.  A few months ago, I wanted, and had, big natural hair. Now I want long relaxed hair and I'm working at it. But there was a time in my life when I kept my hair no more than a few millimetres long and would take a pair of scissors to it every month - sometimes every other day. It suited my personality, features and figure quite well, and I am very likely to go back to that cut in a decade or so.

I'm a shocked at those who are trying to attach some kind of essential goodness or rightness to long hair by quoting scripture and what not. Every time I read that quote about "A woman's hair should be a coverning and a glory to her" in this context, I don't know if I should laugh or cry. Come on. Which would you really guess is true?:
Option 1: God really is really concerned that women should have long hair.
Option 2: Maybe Israelite chicks at that time were getting their hair cut short and the men didn't like it, so they decided to tell them what "God liked". 
Option 3: Those men were just affirming and reinforcing a prevailing cultural or aesthetic preference at that time and place for long hair on women. (and remember that at other times and places, long hair on men has also been the ideal).

Now, given my experience of the world and plain common sense, I would think that options 2 and 3 are most likely. God (if he exists) has better things to think about than to go around prescribing long hair.

And let's be real - the closer you are to pure sub-Saharan African, the harder it usually is to grow your hair extra long. Everyone who talks about "women in my family who grow their hair without effort" knows well and good that they have a little something something mixed up in their family. Yes, most of us Blacks in the West are mixed to some extent, and not all mixed people have long hair yadda yadda - but we all know the truth. My mom has thick hair that she grows past shoulder length quite easily. But I'm not going to pretend that the little bit of Asian blood a few generations back in her family has nothing to do with that. My sis and I have inherited some of that - so shoulder length is not a big deal for us - but our hair is more fragile than hers - we have to care more to get the results she doesn't do anything for.

But SO WHAT?? Hair that doesn't grow long easily isn't "bad hair". Who told us that hair "should" be long anyway? Where did we get that from? Are you cold and need it to cover you? Let's leave aside the scripture quoting - totally irrelevant IMO. What we're doing here growing our hair is purely an aesthetic, vanity project, and we should just leave it at that and smile.


----------



## EbonyHairedPrincess (Jan 29, 2007)

This may be the saddest post I have ever read.  I am so sorry your frustrated like this.  Our hair is what it is.  I think it's beautiful.  I think the problem comes in when we work against our hair instead of working with it.  We are African American just like our body shapes tend to be different from other races so is our hair. I think your feelings are normal and your going threw a normal stage in finding out who your hair really is.  God Bless.


----------



## navsegda (Jan 29, 2007)

kally said:
			
		

> In the journey to acheive healthy, longer hair it is very overwhelming.
> 
> 
> Our hair is something else. I can't take it anymore.  Chemicals, heat , the wrong diet, protective stlyes, wrong products, to many of the right products , oils, grease, wrong clothing, braids,weaves,wigs, using the wrong tools, brushing,combing, using to many product, using not enough products,   you name it causes damages. Everything that you can possible do for our hair seems to cause damage. There seems that there is nothing out there that does not cause damage to our hair. Proper care is key, but you have to go to great lengths to get it and never stop once you have master the art of what it takes for your hair. This can get very costly and time consuming, because what works for one may not work other as we find out in updated threads.
> ...


I also would like to respond directly to the first part of your post.  With all the do's and don'ts around here and the wealth of information, it's easy to get caught up in the madness.  For some people, genetics plays more of a factor in their hair so if they do not have the correct diet and do X,Y, and Z to their hair then they MAY not gain and retain really long lengths (like waist length).  This of course does not mean it is the same for you.  Someone else may feel like they absolutely HAVE to protective style to retain length  but maybe you don't.  For other people, environment may actually play a larger role than genetics and regardless of if they are predisposed some way to have short, weak hair, they can still accomplish great lengths because of what they are doing in the environment.  For those who may be genetically more predisposed to having long hair, sometimes they really do almost nothing  to their hair in their environment and they can STILL grow long hair much quicker than someone who has a strict regimen and has been working for years but is still only a little past shoulder length.  But none of these are always the case.  What works for some may not work for others.  If you feel that you need X,Y, and Z to get long hair, then don't tell someone else that they need X,Y, and Z to get and retain the length, too.  There is a lot of the mentality around here that it can make it seem like everything you do or don't do can cause damage or prevent you from obtaining your goals, but you kinda have to just step back from the masses and figure out what's right for you and you alone.  Yes, some things are scientifically proven to cause damage and others are scientifically proven to help elevate and nourish your hair, but this doesn't mean that either of these factors will produce the exact same results in one person as they do the next.  So my advice to you is to figure out what works for you and BUMP the rest.  The majority is not always right.  We need more leaders in this society, not followers.


----------



## janeemat (Jan 29, 2007)

I have to agree with the poster.  Our hair difficult, very difficult.  I wish I could just wake up in the morning, throw some shampoo, a quick cond, fluff up and hit the road.  We can't exercise without worrying about the hair, we can't swim w/o worry about the hair, we can't make whoopie without worrying about the hair, we can't even just go bed w/o worrying about what the hair will look like the next morning.  When it comes to hair, we got the raw end of deal.  Although, I'm loving this forum and hair journey, but goodness, it is indeed a lot of work.  I will say, a lot of the work we have created it ourselves.  Just think about it if we all just let our hair do it's own thing.  No perms, no relaxers, no coloring, etc.  Just leave it in it's natural state and go.  Life we be much easier and it would take me 15 min to get ready in the mornings, but we would definitely have some "tore up heads" as my husband would say.


----------



## Bosslady1 (Jan 29, 2007)

Tough Question! 
I believe it takes alot of time to take care of ANY hair. (black or white) 
Damaged hair comes in many arrays.


----------



## ebonylocs (Jan 29, 2007)

janeemat said:
			
		

> Just think about it if we all just let our hair do it's own thing.  No perms, no relaxers, no coloring, etc.  Just leave it in it's natural state and go.  Life we be much easier and it would take me 15 min to get ready in the mornings, but we would definitely have some "tore up heads" as my husband would say.



I disagree vehemently. 

There was nothing "tore up" about my head when I used to do that. It was in a neat little cut, and all it required was to get wet in the shower and have some moisturiser rubbed into it.

I'm sure you also know women from older generations who don't do much to their hair except wash and oil it once in a while, and their hair looks fine. When did relaxers, perms, and colouring become essentials of life?


----------



## asha (Jan 29, 2007)

nappywomyn said:
			
		

> The thing is - white women have to worry about that too!! I'm on a majority white hair board - and they talk about the SAME STUFF -
> 
> I really think it's a misconception that black people are the ONLY ones who do things (chemical/mechanical) to their hair because they aren't happy with how it grows out of their hair..




Thank you, Thank you...I have posted this same thought before on the board..even giving examples of when I was living in residence in university and how all the girls..no matter what race or nationality had some hair issue. Right now one of my best friends (white) is so frustrated because her hair...although bra strap is dry (it really does look like straw) and fried and dyed. See she was born blonde with straight hair but as she aged her hair got wavier...and not uniform wave but you know a wave hair and a wave there in all the wrong places and it turned what she calls a mousy brown color. So she began dying and high lighting and using the blow dryer every morning to straiten it out. Now it is breaking, feels like "straw" and you can see the damage. If you payed attention you would see many white girls with this type of hair.  Products are amazing...when she uses the right products it is like the damage just dissapears. But all she has to do is wash it and it's back. The difference is ...she only really gives a hoot about it when she starts feeling down about herself or wants to "dress up". Most days she just leaves it let it do what it wants because she has a 4 year old, is  a single mom and works shift work full time. But I tell ya, if she had more time to think about it...she would be just as concerned as any one of us on here.

As for me, I hate that this hair thing is difficult as it is but you know what...there are many times when I thought my hair was looking harsh and I go out and my friends, coworkers etc would be wow your hair looks good like that or whatever.


----------



## kally (Jan 29, 2007)

FlowerHair said:
			
		

> I hope you aren't trying to say that our hair is a curse?   Because it's not! If Africans have tightly coiled hair it is a *blessing* because without it their heads would boil in the scorching sun.
> 
> And all this talk about babies' hair: babies don't need the grown up structure of hair, because they are protected in the womb. Baby hair lack the core of the hair that we have. So do white, Asian etc babies' hair. Hair consists of three layers and the center is not present in babies' hair. Just as our eye sight is not completely developed at birth, our hair needs to develop too. Our hair was *meant* to be this way, people! And it's only ugly if we think it's ugly.
> 
> And coily hair is only a curse if straight hair is the norm



 What I am getting it is this. I just do not feel that God org intend for our hair to be 4a/4a texture. Yes it is beautiful, yes it is all that, but it also if very hard to maintain, whether you have a simple routine or not, you still have to look out for a lot of things to keep it from damaging compared to other races. Yes true they have their issue but not nearly as many as we do. 

I  really wish I did not feel this way and have asked God to change my thinking and deal with it. It is sad this I know.  

Also I am not saying short hair can not be sexy, attractive etc.., it is just not what I want for me. 

I am only trying to discover the real reason my hair is the way it is and it goes deeper then genes I believe. I feel some element or person along the way placed a part in it.


----------



## Blackbird77 (Jan 29, 2007)

LocksOfLuV said:
			
		

> I think this is a good hair discussion topic and I hope others chime in.
> 
> I was watching the discovery channel one day and it was talking about how different "races" came about. Basicly life began in Africa, but diff. people migrated to diff. areas which had some effect on our features.
> 
> ...


 
In an anthropology class, I learned that bit about African hair being the way it is because of the sun but then I thought about other areas of the world where non-blacks live that have hot climates, too.  Like some of those Polynesian climates.  I'm thinking, if our hair was designed to be short because of the sun, how come the folks in the islands have long hair?  I could understand the texture of our hair being the way it is but length shouldn't have anything to do with it.  I wonder who came up with this theory?


----------



## silvergirl (Jan 29, 2007)

shakes her head.... omg.............


----------



## Crissi (Jan 29, 2007)

Blackbird77 said:
			
		

> In an anthropology class, I learned that bit about African hair being the way it is because of the sun but then I thought about other areas of the world where non-blacks live that have hot climates, too. Like some of those Polynesian climates. I'm thinking, if our hair was designed to be short because of the sun, how come the folks in the islands have long hair? I could understand the texture of our hair being the way it is but length shouldn't have anything to do with it. I wonder who came up with this theory?


 
Maybe i can only speak for myself, and the people i know personally, but my hair tends to thrive in the hot, sunny, tropical climates, i don't have to use much of any product, it stays moist, and doesn't really break and i know plenty people that experience the same thing.


----------



## sweetwhispers (Jan 29, 2007)

My my, the truth will out.
Some of these posts could be the basis for a psychology dissertation.


----------



## LocksOfLuV (Jan 29, 2007)

The only thing I think that's sad and shaking head/psychology paper worthy is the fact that some people have nothing meaningful to add to this thread instead of coming into it and attempting make people feel bad or ashamed for the way they feel. 

I mean come on, people are here literally crying out for help and all we can do is make them feel ashamed?! How can people ever overcome anything if they don't say how they feel? Are they supposed to push it up under the rug in hopes to save face in front of others? I mean come on, discuss _why _you feel that way, or _how_ you can help, don't come in here(which was a very productive thread thus far) with the negativity. How is that gonna help?

I swear to bob, that I can seriously understand why people don't like to share their feelings here.


----------



## JustKiya (Jan 29, 2007)

*reads entire thread* 

*shakes her head* 

I don't even know where to start. Our hair is only 'difficult' because we are trying to get it to do stuff that isn't NATURAL to it. When I was perming my hair - it was VERY difficult because MY hair doesn't LIKE being straight. When I had locks, my hair was VERY easy because it LIKED being tangled around itself. My hair is now loose, and it's NOT difficult - because I KNOW that I can't comb it everyday. I KNOW that it's pointless for me to try to have straight 'swanging' hair in the humidity of the south. I KNOW that it NEEDS moisture on a daily basis. I KNOW that it wants to be protected - and it's MY duty as a steward of my hair to give it what it NEEDS. 

Getting upset with my hair for WANTING to do what is NATURAL for it do  (or with God for giving me this hair - what nerve! He coulda made us all bald, THEN where would we be?) is like getting upset with a dog for not meowing and purring. Like getting upset with a fish for not being able to breathe air. Like getting upset with my skin for not being able to show purple tattoos.... it's pointless and it's frustrating and it's not going to do ANYTHING but twist me up inside and get me upset and cause me to look down on the natural beauty and wonder that is ME. 

Sweet Mother of us all, ya'll - we don't HAVE straight hair. We don't HAVE hair that we can let dry out and bleach and fry and dye and burn and expect it to still be beatiful and healthy and full. And to wonder why is like to wonder why MOST of us don't have green eyes. And instead of loving our hair as extensions of ourself, and honoring it (and thus honoring OURSELVES) by treating it with the gentle, slow, LOVING care that it deserves and NEEDS - we beat ourselves against a wall trying for something that we can't get. DO I REALLY want hair that I can abuse and it still look good? No - because abusing my hair is abusing myself, and I LOVE me way too much to do something like that. 

It ain't even ABOUT loving 'nappy' hair - it's about loving YOUR hair. 

*shakes head* 

Asking God why he gave us this hair....and then turning around and praying for it to grow.


----------



## CAPlush (Jan 29, 2007)

Blackbird77 said:
			
		

> In an anthropology class, I learned that bit about African hair being the way it is because of the sun but then I thought about other areas of the world where non-blacks live that have hot climates, too. Like some of those Polynesian climates. I'm thinking, if our hair was designed to be short because of the sun, how come the folks in the islands have long hair? I could understand the texture of our hair being the way it is but length shouldn't have anything to do with it. I wonder who came up with this theory?


 
I think the curly/kinky texture is more of a "side effect."  As we know, our hair structure is different, having many more cuticle layers and very little medulla, if any at all.  I have no basis for my theory , but it makes more sense that the hair texture has something to do with the skin, pigmentation, allocation of nutritional resources in the body.  It's not an environmental advantage by itself, but it happened because something else was going on in our bodies that created and environmental advantage.  Basically, I think the heat protection aspect of the theory isn't all that reasonable considering it is hot in other places of the world besides Africa.


----------



## sweetwhispers (Jan 29, 2007)

LocksOfLuV said:
			
		

> The only thing I think that's sad and shaking head/psychology paper worthy is the fact that some people have nothing meaningful to add to this thread instead of coming into it and attempting make people feel bad or ashamed for the way they feel.
> 
> I mean come on, people are here literally crying out for help and all we can do is make them feel ashamed?! How can people ever overcome anything if they don't say how they feel? Are they supposed to push it up under the rug in hopes to save face in front of others? I mean come on, discuss _why _you feel that way, or _how_ you can help, don't come in here(which was a very productive thread thus far) with the negativity. How is that gonna help?
> 
> I swear to bob, that I can seriously understand why people don't like to share their feelings here.


 
Why not just address me directly instead of talking about some people?
Unless there is a pill which could change their hair to type 2, i very much doubt there is anything i could do to change anyones mind. I didn't see this thread as "how can i change my feelings towards my hair thread"- maybe i'm reading the wrong thread.


----------



## navsegda (Jan 29, 2007)

LocksOfLuV said:
			
		

> *The only thing I think that's sad and shaking head/psychology paper worthy is the fact that some people have nothing meaningful to add to this thread instead of coming into it and attempting make people feel bad or ashamed for the way they feel. *
> 
> I mean come on, people are here literally crying out for help and all we can do is make them feel ashamed?! How can people ever overcome anything if they don't say how they feel? Are they supposed to push it up under the rug in hopes to save face in front of others? I mean come on, discuss _why _you feel that way, or _how_ you can help, don't come in here(which was a very productive thread thus far) with the negativity. How is that gonna help?
> 
> I swear to bob, that I can seriously understand why people don't like to share their feelings here.



*fans self*

GIRL, YOU SAID IT!  

There are no words to describe the amount of mad props I give you right now.

I wish I were more eloquent right here...but wow, I just...wow.


----------



## sweetwhispers (Jan 29, 2007)

This thread is bonkers, and quite truly sad. *Strokes  head cursed by God and walks out of thread*


----------



## LocksOfLuV (Jan 29, 2007)

sweetwhispers said:
			
		

> This thread is bonkers, and quite truly sad. *Strokes head cursed by God and walks out of thread*


 
The only reason I didn't specifically call you out, is 1. you weren't the only one and 2. because I knew it was a lot more where that came from. I been around here long enough to know, once one comment come in here like that others will soon follow.

And as far as you leaving and I say this with every oz of respect in my body-see ya. It truly isn't worth staying in a thread that makes you 'sad.' The thread held a lot more meaning before people started coming in here shaking their heads with thoughless comments anyways.


----------



## kally (Jan 29, 2007)

LocksOfLuV said:
			
		

> The only reason I didn't specifically call you out, is 1. you weren't the only one and 2. because I knew it was a lot more where that came from. I been around here long enough to know, once one comment come in here like that others will soon follow.
> 
> And as far as you leaving and I say this with every oz of respect in my body-see ya. It truly isn't worth staying in a thread that makes you 'sad.' The thread held a lot more meaning before people started coming in here shaking their heads with thoughless comments anyways.



Thank you LocksOfLuv.


----------



## firecracker (Jan 29, 2007)

sweetwhispers said:
			
		

> This thread is bonkers, and quite truly sad. *Strokes head cursed by God and walks out of thread*


 
_Hey sweetwhispers the thing is some women/people really do share these feelings.  Disturbing, bonker or whatever one may think._

_I think they need to talk and have discussions about it even if we don't see, feel or share their feelings on their perceived hair challenges. _

_Stylish/attractive hair really can make a woman feel fierce on her worst day but the true fierceness starts within.   Short, long, straight, wavy or nappy like my kunta kente bush__ you gotta feel good about self first and foremost.  Hell I could imagine what a cancer victim goes through during chemo no matter how high the self esteem.   _


----------



## Bunny77 (Jan 29, 2007)

This thread saddens me.

I'm not gonna get all deep, but I wanna bring up a few points.

I don't know a lot of babies of other races, so I have no idea about their hair... but to say that only black babies have texture changes really isn't true. Many babies are born bald but they don't stay bald all their lives. A lot of white folks on Naturallycurly.com say they had straight hair at birth but by age 1, it was curly... so why is it a "curse" or "messed up" for black babies to suddenly have their texture change?

*The only reason anyone would think that 4a/4b hair is a curse or a punishment is because they believe that type of hair to be inferior. No one who loves and accepts her hair would feel that way. If someone truly accepted their hair as it is, this idea would never cross their mind.* 

It's fine to express your feelings, but to me it's disturbing that someone wouldn't acknowledge that these ideas need some challenging. We can have a zillion threads in which posters say how they feel, but don't you think at some point it's time to start saying, "Well why the heck do I feel this way? Maybe the issue is with MY beliefs and not God/Buddha/Zeus or whoever made the world?"

Finally... black women can get up, shower, swim, make love and all that good stuff with the hair they have on their heads, like every other race of women. The difference is that we expect our hair to act like that of other race women, then say it's difficult. Now, it's your choice if you want to try to make your hair straighter and all of that, but if you do, then yes, you will have to spend more time doing it and have less freedom to do some of the activities listed above... but again, that's a result of your choice, not a limitation on black hair.

I'm out.


----------



## kally (Jan 29, 2007)

firecracker said:
			
		

> _Hey sweetwhispers the thing is some women/people really do share these feelings.  Disturbing, bonker or whatever one may think._
> 
> _I think they need to talk and have discussions about it even if we don't see, feel or share their feelings on their perceived hair challenges. _
> 
> _Stylish/attractive hair really can make a woman feel fierce on her worst day but the true fierceness starts within.   Short, long, straight, wavy or nappy like my kunta kente bush__ you gotta feel good about self first and foremost.  Hell I could imagine what a cancer victim goes through during chemo no matter how high the self esteem.   _




Exactly. I will be the first to admit that when it comes to my hair, I just do not have the self-esteem I need. Probably never will which is truly sad. All other aspects of my life I do, but I feel I need to have a certain look to make my hair exceptable. I Love seeing natural hair the thickness and beauty of it and would love to have it. My hair just does not  have the thickness and fullness that the Average AA woman has. My have is baby soft and very fine even in its natural state. It is thicker now then when I was a kid, but I have to be extremely carefull about what I do to it, and it seems when I read about others hair care they do as well, this is why I figured it is the hair is hard to maintain. Everyday I see mainly our race of people walking around with hair issues or hidding it, like myself. I just feel that God did not make us to go through this when it comes to hair.


----------



## JustKiya (Jan 29, 2007)

kally said:
			
		

> I just feel that God did not make us to go through this when it comes to hair.


 
God DIDN'T. It has been OUR choice to manipulate our hair to look like something that doesn't GROW out of our heads. It has been our CHOICE to believe that our hair - as it grows - isn't gorgeous, beautiful and wonderful. It's our PERCEPTION that we HAVE to tame/manage/control our hair that makes it difficult. It's the IDEA that the whole world should have straight, glasshiny, flowing and blowing in the wind hair that makes it DIFFICULT. 

That ain't God... that's US.


----------



## Bunny77 (Jan 29, 2007)

nappywomyn said:
			
		

> God DIDN'T. It has been OUR choice to manipulate our hair to look like something that doesn't GROW out of our heads. It has been our CHOICE to believe that our hair - as it grows - isn't gorgeous, beautiful and wonderful. It's our PERCEPTION that we HAVE to tame/manage/control our hair that makes it difficult. It's the IDEA that the whole world should have straight, glasshiny, flowing and blowing in the wind hair that makes it DIFFICULT.
> 
> *That ain't God... that's US.*



And THAT sums it all up!!! It's US. Let's give God the glory and respect that He deserves (if you believe in him) and focus on why WE have an issue with our hair instead of trying to put this on Him.

Kally, I do ask this in as respectful a way as possible... from what I read in your posts, you seem to be very strong in your Christian beliefs. That being said, have you ever perhaps thought that it's disrespectful to God to be blaming Him for something that he created just because you have an issue with it?


----------



## silvergirl (Jan 29, 2007)

nappywomyn said:
			
		

> *reads entire thread*
> 
> *shakes her head*
> 
> ...


----------



## kally (Jan 29, 2007)

nappywomyn said:
			
		

> God DIDN'T. It has been OUR choice to manipulate our hair to look like something that doesn't GROW out of our heads. It has been our CHOICE to believe that our hair - as it grows - isn't gorgeous, beautiful and wonderful. It's our PERCEPTION that we HAVE to tame/manage/control our hair that makes it difficult. It's the IDEA that the whole world should have straight, glasshiny, flowing and blowing in the wind hair that makes it DIFFICULT.
> 
> That ain't God... that's US.



This is true, our choices does effect our outcome of the hair, but other races make poor choices as well and their hair suffers, but not seemingly as much as ours.


----------



## ShaniKeys (Jan 29, 2007)

spiceykitten said:
			
		

> Shanikeys:
> 
> I really like your statement. I do not know how to use the quote thing, unless I would quote you.
> 
> ...


Thanks Spiceykitten, and the comment you made about the "OUR" hair thing, makes alot of sense.


----------



## KeyahGirl (Jan 29, 2007)

nappywomyn said:
			
		

> It's our PERCEPTION that we HAVE to tame/manage/control our hair that makes it difficult.



I think this is disingenuous, frankly. It isn't our perception - it's reality and it's influenced by the majority. When you have schools barring natural hairstyles like braids, is that "our" perception? If you have people like my cousin, who has had beautiful, Cassandra Wilson-like locs for most of her adult life and was written up by her "liberal" law firm for "unkempt appearance" and was later told that it was her locs that made them think that she wasn't the "right sort of minority person" to be in their firm, is it "our" perception that our hair is difficult?

When you are denied a gig or looked at like you stink or asked if you can bathe with "those things" in your hair, is it "our" perception that our hair is difficult?

Let's be real. We have to survive in this world, and a lot of it is about conformity. If you choose NOT to conform and you have no problem getting jobs, feeding your family and thriving in life, congrats. But that's not the reality, when in the 21st century you have universities passing strictures against natural styles and you still have people coming to this board and others with stories about how they were clowned, frowned or put down by their white peers and bosses over how their hair grows naturally out of their scalp.

None of that - NONE OF IT - in my opinion, is "our" perception. It's the way things are. And when THAT changes, I'm sure "our" perception about the beauty of our hair WILL change.


----------



## navsegda (Jan 29, 2007)

Bunny77 said:
			
		

> This thread saddens me.
> 
> I'm not gonna get all deep, but I wanna bring up a few points.
> 
> I don't know a lot of babies of other races, so I have no idea about their hair... but to say that only black babies have texture changes really isn't true. Many babies are born bald but they don't stay bald all their lives. A lot of white folks on Naturallycurly.com say they had straight hair at birth but by age 1, it was curly... so why is it a "curse" or "messed up" for black babies to suddenly have their texture change?


No one is trying to imply that black babies are the *only* ones with texture changes.  Not all are (some have much looser textures of hair and retained these textures).  However, many had much looser textures of hair when they were babies and even later points that eventually progressed to a more-coiled, "kinkier" texture if you will.  Many is indicative of a large number, it is not all encompassing.  We've already discussed that some babies of other races (like Isis brought up) have textures of hair similar to *many* of our own *now* and we were debating whether or not that texture changed like many of ours did when they grew older, too.  I said *I* had never seen a black baby with kinky hair the same texture it is now but that doesn't mean you or someone else hasn't.

Also, many babies are born bald (several white babies are).  However, baldness and the texture growing out of your head are two different subjects.  I'm talking about the texture that grows out of your head whenever it first grows at whatever point and how it may or may not change as you progress.


----------



## kally (Jan 29, 2007)

KeyahGirl said:
			
		

> I think this is disingenuous, frankly. It isn't our perception - it's reality and it's influenced by the majority. When you have schools barring natural hairstyles like braids, is that "our" perception? If you have people like my cousin, who has had beautiful, Cassandra Wilson-like locs for most of her adult life and was written up by her "liberal" law firm for "unkempt appearance" and was later told that it was her locs that made them think that she wasn't the "right sort of minority person" to be in their firm, is it "our" perception that our hair is difficult?
> 
> When you are denied a gig or looked at like you stink or asked if you can bathe with "those things" in your hair, is it "our" perception that our hair is difficult?
> 
> ...




Not to mention, the little school age girls who wear their hair natural have to be the butt of jokes at school, from other children  (mainly from her own race)because her hair is not like her other race counterparts . This really brings about self hate, because at that age your only worry is fitting it.


----------



## navsegda (Jan 29, 2007)

Bunny77 said:
			
		

> And THAT sums it all up!!! It's US. Let's give God the glory and respect that He deserves (if you believe in him) and focus on why WE have an issue with our hair instead of trying to put this on Him.
> 
> Kally, I do ask this in as respectful a way as possible... from what I read in your posts, you seem to be very strong in your Christian beliefs. That being said, have you ever perhaps thought that it's disrespectful to God to be blaming Him for something that he created just because you have an issue with it?


I know you weren't talking to me but I also wanted to pose a question to you.  How do you know that the texture that many of us have now was the texture given to us originally by God?  As others have said, we have evolved over many years and the phenotype expressed now in many of us may not have been the phenotype expressed first long ago.  After doing much research now, there are a lot of scientists, geneticists, anthropologists, and archaeologists that do believe that early Africans did not in fact have kinky hair and that it was a later mutation that became dominant (not all mutations are bad, if it was a mutation to protect us or make us genetically more favorable then I think that shows that we were strong enough to handle conditions that maybe many of other races could not and would have died out as a result) to deal with the climate or some other form of adapation to the environment (that may not be climate related), or it may be a combination of many factors for survival.  I AM IN NO WAY SAYING THIS IS THE TRUTH OF ALL TRUTHS.  If you choose to believe this is *crap*, then sobeit.  Point being:  there is no proof that this is the texture we've always had and there isn't 100% proof that this isn't the texture we always had, either.

Also, there are many things we question God about. Why did you have to take my son?   Why did you have to take my daughter?  Why did you have to take my grandmother?  Why is X member of my family dying of cancer?  Why did Eve screw it up for the rest of us so that we have to go through pain during childbirth (without modern medicine)?     Why do bad things happen to good people?  I am in no way comparing kinky hair to cancer so please do not get that idea; I'm just using this as an example of other things that we can have that we may question God about because we do not understand.


----------



## kally (Jan 29, 2007)

Bunny77 said:
			
		

> And THAT sums it all up!!! It's US. Let's give God the glory and respect that He deserves (if you believe in him) and focus on why WE have an issue with our hair instead of trying to put this on Him.
> 
> Kally, I do ask this in as respectful a way as possible... from what I read in your posts, you seem to be very strong in your Christian beliefs. That being said, have you ever perhaps thought that it's disrespectful to God to be blaming Him for something that he created just because you have an issue with it?




Yes I have thought that, and feel very bad about it. God knows how my heart is and that I have been struggling with this for all of my life. I mean he could have made me bald. I am aware that I have to be thankful for what I have  and I would be devastated if he took it away from me for complain, he also knows I am in search of answers as well.


----------



## navsegda (Jan 29, 2007)

kally said:
			
		

> Yes I have thought that, and feel very bad about it. God knows how my heart is and that I have been struggling with this for all of my life. I mean he could have made me bald. I am aware that I have to be thankful for what I have  and I would be devastated if he took it away from me for complain, he also knows I am in search of answers as well.


Do not let ANYONE else make you feel bad.  We all have our issues and we all have our problems in life.  None of us are perfect.  Relaxed or straightened heads shouldn't be criticizing the naturals for their views and the naturals shouldn't be criticizing the relaxed or straightened (because not all naturals straighten their hair) for their views.  No one in this thread has been perfectly happy with every single thing in their life at every single point of life so we do not have the right to judge or tell someone else HOW they should feel based on our OWN personal views.  We can ask questions so we can understand where the other is coming from and present our viewpoints, but to become insulting or make someone feel ashamed of the way they feel is not the way to go.


----------



## kally (Jan 29, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> I know you weren't talking to me but I also wanted to pose a question to you.  How do you know that the texture that many of us have now was the texture given to us originally by God?  As others have said, we have evolved over many years and the phenotype expressed now in many of us may not have been the phenotype expressed first long ago.  After doing much research now, there are a lot of scientists, geneticists, anthropologists, and archaeologists that do believe that early Africans did not in fact have kinky hair and that it was a later mutation that became dominant (not all mutations are bad, if it was a mutation then I think that shows that we were strong enough to handle conditions that maybe many of other races could not) to deal with the climate or some other form of adapation to the environment (that may not be climate related), or it may be a combination of many factors for survival.  I AM IN NO WAY SAYING THIS IS THE TRUTH OF ALL TRUTHS.  If you choose to believe this is *crap*, then sobeit.  Point being:  there is no proof that this is the texture we've always had and there isn't 100% proof that this isn't the texture we always had, either.
> 
> Also, there are many things we question God about. Why did you have to take my son?   Why did you have to take my daughter?  Why did you have to take my grandmother?  Why is X member of my family dying of cancer?  Why did Eve screw it up for the rest of us so that we have to go through pain during childbirth (without modern medicine)?     Why do bad things happen to good people?  I am in no way comparing kinky hair to cancer so please do not get that idea; I'm just using this as an example of other things that we can have that we may question God about because we do not understand.


----------



## londonjakki (Jan 29, 2007)

KeyahGirl said:
			
		

> I think this is disingenuous, frankly. It isn't our perception - it's reality and it's influenced by the majority. When you have schools barring natural hairstyles like braids, is that "our" perception? If you have people like my cousin, who has had beautiful, Cassandra Wilson-like locs for most of her adult life and was written up by her "liberal" law firm for "unkempt appearance" and was later told that it was her locs that made them think that she wasn't the "right sort of minority person" to be in their firm, is it "our" perception that our hair is difficult?
> 
> When you are denied a gig or looked at like you stink or asked if you can bathe with "those things" in your hair, is it "our" perception that our hair is difficult?
> 
> ...


 
ITA.......I have 4b natural hair that does not curl up in cute curls when dry....& yes I have a difficult time with my hair....I like to wear braids sometimes.. as its about 12 inches in front and about 8 inches in back.. I cannot press it myself it comes out big and puffy....at my job they actually tried to come out with a ruling saying we cannot wear braids, twists & cornrows.....so 
Kally I know what you are talking about Maybe I need to get the right products..but hey thats why I'm here.....


----------



## JazzyDez (Jan 29, 2007)

LocksOfLuV said:
			
		

> The only thing I think that's sad and shaking head/psychology paper worthy is the fact that some people have nothing meaningful to add to this thread instead of coming into it and attempting make people feel bad or ashamed for the way they feel.
> 
> I mean come on, people are here literally crying out for help and all we can do is make them feel ashamed?! How can people ever overcome anything if they don't say how they feel? Are they supposed to push it up under the rug in hopes to save face in front of others? I mean come on, discuss _why _you feel that way, or _how_ you can help, don't come in here(which was a very productive thread thus far) with the negativity. How is that gonna help?
> 
> I swear to bob, that I can seriously understand why people don't like to share their feelings here.


 
I TOTALLY AGREE!!

People are responding to the poster in such a condesending tone and some coming in here with their useless 2 cents (like one negative comment and leaving thread) for what reason??   I definately SEE where the poster is coming from but I also SEE where some of the responders are coming from. If you disagree with her or dont believe that she should feel this way I am sure that (some of you) can figure out a better way to word your responses. I havent really commented on the topic for the simple fact that I dont feel like debating but I have been keeping up with the thread. Some people just need to grow up.


----------



## navsegda (Jan 29, 2007)

kally said:
			
		

> Not to mention, the little school age girls who wear their hair natural have to be the butt of jokes at school, from other children  (mainly from her own race)because her hair is not like her other race counterparts . This really brings about self hate, because at that age your only worry is fitting it.



Man, I was made fun of by black people when I was natural as a child.  Now some black people will make fun of me because I'm relaxed.  It's like a Catch 22 situation anywhere you go.  You can't win for losing.  Like I have said, everyone should just accept the hairstyle choices we all choose to make or just kindly STFU.  What gives you the freaking right to be holier-than-thou and look down upon someone else for something that does not personally affect you one way or another?  If someone likes their hair or doesn't like their hair, how is it causing any of us to lose any sleep at night or harming any of us in any way?  There are all sorts of things we like and dislike and yet none of them are criticized or ridiculed in the way hair is.


----------



## kally (Jan 29, 2007)

To all the above.


----------



## LocksOfLuV (Jan 29, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> Man, I was made fun of by black people when I was natural as a child. Now some black people will make fun of me because I'm relaxed. It's like a Catch 22 situation anywhere you go. You can't win for losing. Like I have said, everyone should just accept the hairstyle choices we all choose to make or just kindly STFU. What gives you the freaking right to be holier-than-thou and look down upon someone else for something that does not personally affect you one way or another? If someone likes their hair or doesn't like their hair, how is it causing any of us to lose any sleep at night or harming any of us in any way? There are all sorts of things we like and dislike and yet none of them are criticized or ridiculed in the way hair is.


 
HELLO!!!!


----------



## Bunny77 (Jan 29, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> No one is trying to imply that black babies are the *only* ones with texture changes.  Not all are (some have much looser textures of hair and retained these textures).  However, many had much looser textures of hair when they were babies and even later points that eventually progressed to a more-coiled, "kinkier" texture if you will.  Many is indicative of a large number, it is not all encompassing.  We've already discussed that some babies of other races (like Isis brought up) have textures of hair similar to *many* of our own *now* and we were debating whether or not that texture changed like many of ours did when they grew older, too.  I said *I* had never seen a black baby with kinky hair the same texture it is now but that doesn't mean you or someone else hasn't.
> 
> Also, many babies are born bald (several white babies are).  However, baldness and the texture growing out of your head are two different subjects.  I'm talking about the texture that grows out of your head whenever it first grows at whatever point and how it may or may not change as you progress.



The point I'm making though is this... why is it that folks feel that black babies texture change is bad? I brought up the baldness thing only to say that what you're born with (or without) has no bearing on what you end up with.

So why is it a problem that black babies' hair gets kinkier?


----------



## Bunny77 (Jan 29, 2007)

Oh, and I think the reason some people are getting a little bothered is not because some folks prefer straight hair and some don't, but because the underlying idea being floated around is that there's something inherently WRONG with the way our hair is.

There is not. Now, that doesn't mean that everyone is going to like having kinky hair or won't prefer that it be a different texture... and that's another issue that I won't get into on this thread. But I don't care how one puts it, there is NOTHING INHERENTLY WRONG OR BAD about kinky, coily, highly textured black hair. 

I think when we start getting into the "well, why did God give this to us, did he make a mistake" or "is he cursing us with this hair" it shows more of an issue with us as a community rather than God. And yes, I am bothered personally when I see wonderful Christian men and women in my daily life (whether in real life and on this board) who will glorify God from sun-up to sun-down suddenly want to say that he did black folks wrong by not giving us straight or wavy hair.

Come on now, aren't we better than that? 

And whether or not we were meant to have this hair or it evolved this way or not, we've got it now. You can either accept what it can and cannot do and embrace it, or you can go through life being angry/hurt/disappointed about it.

I know I'd rather focus on the positive option. The second choice only lowers your self-esteem and gives you high blood pressure.  

Edited to add... I also don't think anyone should feel bad about their thoughts, but at the same time, as with anything, if an issue is causing you so much pain and hurt that it's a continual focus or barrier to building greater self-esteem, then yes, one probably should work on their thinking/actions to get away from that negativity. What's the purpose of going through life never working on oneself and always being bitter/upset/disappointed?


----------



## Country gal (Jan 29, 2007)

Bunny77 said:
			
		

> Oh, and I think the reason some people are getting a little bothered is not because some folks prefer straight hair and some don't, but because the underlying idea being floated around is that there's something inherently WRONG with the way our hair is.
> 
> There is not. Now, that doesn't mean that everyone is going to like having kinky hair or won't prefer that it be a different texture... and that's another issue that I won't get into on this thread. But I don't care how one puts it, there is NOTHING INHERENTLY WRONG OR BAD about kinky, coily, highly textured black hair.
> 
> ...



Yep. I have learned to work with the hair God blessed me with and work it in my favor. It seemed once I stopped obsessing on having hair down my back, it just started growing.


----------



## navsegda (Jan 29, 2007)

Bunny77 said:
			
		

> The point I'm making though is this... why is it that folks feel that black babies texture change is bad? I brought up the baldness thing only to say that what you're born with (or without) has no bearing on what you end up with.
> 
> So why is it a problem that black babies' hair gets kinkier?


Why does the texture change have to be a bad thing?   It doesn't.  I'm not implying that it's ugly or ridiculous or anything else negative of that sort.  I just wanted to know why it happened and could this be bigger clues that some of our ancestors may not have always first had the texture that many of us do now.  (Refer to what I said about homeobox genes).

Also, there are some things that you are born with or without that DO have a bearing on what you end up with later in life.  I'm not talking about medical diseases or anything, I'm talking about traits that can either be independent or dependent on another trait to completely develop.  For instance, if you are born with extra androgens floating around, then you may develop more masculine features in puberty than a girl born with normal amounts.  Furthermore, if you have a defunct receptor in your brain at birth, then it could also cause you problems later on if ligands cannot properly bind.


----------



## JustKiya (Jan 29, 2007)

KeyahGirl said:
			
		

> I think this is disingenuous, frankly. It isn't our perception - it's reality and it's influenced by the majority. When you have schools barring natural hairstyles like braids, is that "our" perception? If you have people like my cousin, who has had beautiful, Cassandra Wilson-like locs for most of her adult life and was written up by her "liberal" law firm for "unkempt appearance" and was later told that it was her locs that made them think that she wasn't the "right sort of minority person" to be in their firm, is it "our" perception that our hair is difficult?
> 
> When you are denied a gig or looked at like you stink or asked if you can bathe with "those things" in your hair, is it "our" perception that our hair is difficult?
> 
> ...


 
And as long as black woman are asking why God CURSED them with the natural texture of that hair - things are NEVER going to change. Until WE send out the message that WE are proud of OUR hair - just as it grows out of our head, OF COURSE people are going to assume there is something wrong with it. Heck, *WE* believe there is something 'wrong' with our hair. 

All of the above examples sound like out and out ignorance - a chance to educate the OTHER about the truth of our hair - that only WE can speak on, because only WE know our hair. Over on NP, they started a petition with the BPD tried to say that natural hairstyles weren't allowed - and the BALTIMORE POLICE DEPARTMENT backed down because a bunch of loud, proud, black people stood up and said - NO. There is NOTHING wrong with our hair the way it comes out of our head, and YOU will not try to implement rules that make it seem like there is. 

 But as long as we are complaining about how 'other' races don't have to go through all this with their hair (races that don't FIGHT their natural hair nearly as much as we do), and as long as we are 'ashamed' of what grows out of our head naturally, and as long as we are 'questioning' whether our GENETICS have been 'warped' in some way - of COURSE the rest of the world is going to look down on our hair - hell, WE ain't even learned how to stop looking down on it. 

Until *WE* stop looking down on our natural hair, ain't nobody *ELSE* gonna stop looking down on our natural hair. And I think that's why this thread has so many 'sad' people in it - because as long as someone can even ASK if *GOD CURSED THEM* with their natural hair......it makes me want to cry that anyone could think that God would be hateful enough to curse an entire race....instead of thinking that God BLESSED us with something that NO other race has.


----------



## Bunny77 (Jan 29, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> Why does the texture change have to be a bad thing?   It doesn't.  I'm not implying that it's ugly or ridiculous or anything else negative of that sort.  I just wanted to know why it happened and could this be bigger clues that some of our ancestors may not have always first had the texture that many of us do now.  (Refer to what I said about homeobox genes).
> 
> Also, there are some things that you are born with or without that DO have a bearing on what you end up with later in life.  I'm not talking about medical diseases or anything, I'm talking about traits that can either be independent or dependent on another trait to completely develop.  For instance, if you are born with extra androgens floating around, then you may develop more masculine features in puberty than a girl born with normal amounts.  Furthermore, if you have a defunct receptor in your brain at birth, then it could also cause you problems later on if ligands cannot properly bind.



Okay, I see what you're getting at. If texture did indeed change (I have no idea if it did or didn't and I'm not really a scientist-type so I probably won't be researching it), then sure, it would be interesting to understand why.

I guess at the end of the day though, I'd still want people to embrace what they have. And by that, I don't mean that it has to be natural only or whatever... just that they understand what it can and cannot do and accentuate the positive.


----------



## Country gal (Jan 29, 2007)

nappywomyn said:
			
		

> God DIDN'T. It has been OUR choice to manipulate our hair to look like something that doesn't GROW out of our heads. It has been our CHOICE to believe that our hair - as it grows - isn't gorgeous, beautiful and wonderful. It's our PERCEPTION that we HAVE to tame/manage/control our hair that makes it difficult. It's the IDEA that the whole world should have straight, glasshiny, flowing and blowing in the wind hair that makes it DIFFICULT.
> 
> That ain't God... that's US.



Some folks were a little bothered when I started a thread don't go natural if.... I was stating that natural hair is just not a style choice, it  changes your way of thinking. If you have always been relaxed and transition to natural hair, your mind goes through some changes too. I remember the days when my hair had to be straight or else I would put a hat on it. I remember the days I use to hide my hair under a wig or a weave. During my transition stage, I had to deal with folks looking at me like I was crazy. I perserved and stuck to my decision of going natural. It wasn't easy at first learning how to deal with a different texture.

Once you conquer the mind, the rest will follow. Once you have the self confidence, it doesn't matter if your hair is straight, natural, 4z or 3a.


----------



## ShaniKeys (Jan 29, 2007)

nappywomyn said:
			
		

> And as long as black woman are asking why God CURSED them with the natural texture of that hair - things are NEVER going to change. Until WE send out the message that WE are proud of OUR hair - just as it grows out of our head, OF COURSE people are going to assume there is something wrong with it. Heck, *WE* believe there is something 'wrong' with our hair.
> 
> All of the above examples sound like out and out ignorance - a chance to educate the OTHER about the truth of our hair - that only WE can speak on, because only WE know our hair. Over on NP, they started a petition with the BPD tried to say that natural hairstyles weren't allowed - and the BALTIMORE POLICE DEPARTMENT backed down because a bunch of loud, proud, black people stood up and said - NO. There is NOTHING wrong with our hair the way it comes out of our head, and YOU will not try to implement rules that make it seem like there is.
> 
> ...


I've been hearing a lot of these stories about people not being able to show up with a certain type of hair at their workplace and I must say that is a problem that doesn't accur in Belgium (Europe?). I wear my hair natural and I work part time as a cashier and as a receptionist in an office. I was thinking: maybe it's because white Americans know much more about black hair, they know that you can RELAX it instead of wearing braids and stuff, whilest here, people don't know that much about black hair, so whatever type of hair you show up with, they don't care. All they know is: black ppl got nappy hair! What y'all think 'bout this theory?


----------



## Bunny77 (Jan 29, 2007)

nappywomyn said:
			
		

> And as long as black woman are asking why God CURSED them with the natural texture of that hair - things are NEVER going to change. Until WE send out the message that WE are proud of OUR hair - just as it grows out of our head, OF COURSE people are going to assume there is something wrong with it. Heck, *WE* believe there is something 'wrong' with our hair.
> 
> All of the above examples sound like out and out ignorance - a chance to educate the OTHER about the truth of our hair - that only WE can speak on, because only WE know our hair. Over on NP, they started a petition with the BPD tried to say that natural hairstyles weren't allowed - and the BALTIMORE POLICE DEPARTMENT backed down because a bunch of loud, proud, black people stood up and said - NO. There is NOTHING wrong with our hair the way it comes out of our head, and YOU will not try to implement rules that make it seem like there is.
> 
> ...



And let's not forget that the university that passed policies restricting our hair was a historically BLACK college (Hampton). Whether you agreed with the policy or not (and I'm also not getting into that debate here), the point is, it was a BLACK school that did it... which means we remain a large part of the problem in regards to acceptance. 

And with the Baltimore Police, it was high-ranking BLACK folks that signed off on that policy. So what does that tell ya?


----------



## JustKiya (Jan 29, 2007)

Bunny77 said:
			
		

> And let's not forget that the university that passed policies restricting our hair was a historically BLACK college (Hampton). Whether you agreed with the policy or not (and I'm also not getting into that debate here), the point is, it was a BLACK school that did it... which means we remain a large part of the problem in regards to acceptance.
> 
> And with the Baltimore Police, it was high-ranking BLACK folks that signed off on that policy. So what does that tell ya?


 
HELLO???!!??  *shakes head*  

White people/Asian People/Indian people know JACK all about our hair. In fact, our NATURAL hair intrigues them - *LOL* I've had some of the FUNNIEST conversations about hair with white folx - who were asking innocent like a child questions about my NATURAL hair - because they didn't even REALIZE there was a big thing about natural hair. My white girlfriends are SHOCKED when I show them a hairstyle and say it would be considered unacceptable to other black folks.  

BLACK people have the biggest problems with BLACK peoples hair - not white people, not asian people, not Island people, not people of any other race who has 'wavy/curly/straight' hair. 

US. 

We are the problem - and until we REALLY look into ourselves, and until we start rebuking our children and our elders and our brothers and our sisters and ourselves about how we talk about our hair, we will always and CONTINUE to be the problem. We NEED to stop dismissing, hating on, putting down, calling less than, or thinking that it's so difficult.... 

I ain't saying there is anything wrong with liking - or wanting straight hair. I'm just saying that there is something MAJORLY wrong about disliking/cursing the hair that we are given, and then claiming that it's 'other people' who don't approve of our hair.


----------



## navsegda (Jan 29, 2007)

nappywomyn said:
			
		

> as long as we are 'questioning' whether our GENETICS have been 'warped' in some way - of COURSE the rest of the world is going to look down on our hair - hell, WE ain't even learned how to stop looking down on it.
> 
> Until *WE* stop looking down on our natural hair, ain't nobody *ELSE* gonna stop looking down on our natural hair. And I think that's why this thread has so many 'sad' people in it - because as long as someone can even ASK if *GOD CURSED THEM* with their natural hair......it makes me want to cry that anyone could think that God would be hateful enough to curse an entire race....instead of thinking that God BLESSED us with something that NO other race has.


About the genetics, even IF there was a mutation that did in fact change our natural texture that does not mean that our genetics are now corrupted (it could be depending on one's definition of "corruptness" but it also could NOT be). I do know that not all mutations are bad.  God could have blessed us with this mutation to make us stronger in the process of natural selection and to increase our environmental fitness somehow at that specific point in time.  This does not mean of course that we need this trait for survival now several thousands of years later (as many of us have migrated) but as someone else said, just because you don't need something anymore doesn't mean it will always go away.  Sometimes traits skip generations, are suppressed, or are heightened by a variety of factors.  They can be either dominant or recessive.

Also, it has been brought up that a few members of other races do have similar textures to 4a/4b hair, for instance.  "Our" uniqueness only goes so far (not all black women or men have the "kinky" hair although in some areas the majority just may).   And if you are black and you don't have the "kinky" type hair, does this make you any less unique than someone with the kinky hair?  NO.  This is why the question of genetics (I won't get into race mixing) and evolution is interesting.

However, no one in this thread questioning anything is "sad."  No one is perfect and thus no one has the right to look down upon someone else or be insulting just because one may not agree with anyone else's viewpoints.  We often like to blame the other races (like the whites) for oppressing elements of black culture when a lot of the time we oppress and hold each other back ourselves by attacking one another and trying to tell one another how we should feel or how we should think about another subject.  The thing that makes black people beautiful is that we are all DIVERSE.  We have a huge problem accepting others' opinions and choices and it's not just shown in this thread.  If a white woman says she hates her hair because it's curly or straight and she wishes she had a different texture, she doesn't get attacked by other members of her race with the whole "race traitor" or betrayal type response.  Unless I've misplaced my "how to be black and love yourself as a black woman" card, then people are allowed to like and dislike what they please.


----------



## navsegda (Jan 29, 2007)

nappywomyn said:
			
		

> BLACK people have the biggest problems with BLACK peoples hair - not white people, not asian people, not Island people, not people of any other race who has 'wavy/curly/straight' hair.


This is a two-edged sword.  All my life I have had to deal with black people, not those of other races, looking down on me for my hair--whether it was natural or whether it was relaxed.  You're natural:  OMG girl your hair is nappy as hell.  You're relaxed:  OMG girl you don't appreciate what God gave you and you are a traitor to the black race.  How dare you alter your natural texture in such a manner?! My whole premise is that we should all accept each other for the choices we make and just let us embrace or wear our hair any way we want to without fearing backlash.


----------



## Bunny77 (Jan 29, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> However, no one in this thread questioning anything is "sad."  No one is perfect and thus no one has the right to look down upon someone else or be insulting just because one may not agree with anyone else's viewpoints.  We often like to blame the other races (like the whites) for oppressing elements of black culture when a lot of the time we oppress and hold each other back ourselves by attacking one another and trying to tell one another how we should feel or how we should think about another subject.  The thing that makes black people beautiful is that we are all DIVERSE.  We have a huge problem accepting others' opinions and choices and it's not just shown in this thread.  If a white woman says she hates her hair because it's curly or straight and she wishes she had a different texture, she doesn't get attacked by other members of her race with the whole "race traitor" or betrayal type response.  Unless I've misplaced my "how to be black and love yourself as a black woman" card, then people are allowed to like and dislike what they please.



I think the difference though is that many black women who say they prefer straight hair or lighter skin are doing so from a place of pain and hurt... they've been teased/clowned/etc. for being "black and nappy," so the preference for straighter hair doesn't only come from seeing some women walking around with straight hair and saying, "Hey, I like that! That's what I want!"

I don't think anyone (well at least I don't) cares if someone prefers straight hair, but we can't front like that preference in the black community doesn't have some ugly roots. And even if you prefer straight hair until the day you die, you should at least get to a point where you make peace with the hair you have on your head (however you choose to wear it) and accept that even if you do straighten it, it won't "behave" like naturally straight women's hair because it has been altered.

And the "sad" part does not relate to the preference, but the use of the word cursed to describe black hair. I think it's sad that anything about being black, from our hair, to skin tone, to lips, to nose, etc., would be considered a curse from God. I have to admit that I don't love my broad nose and have considered altering it... right now I'm in a "keep it" phase, but next month, I might be in a plastic-surgery research phase... but whatever I do and however I feel, I don't think my nose is a curse. It is what it is.

So... I don't think Kally or anyone else is "sad" for thinking the way they do, but I think the idea of black hair being a curse is "sad" because it comes from a place of pain and hurt.


----------



## Bunny77 (Jan 29, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> This is a two-edged sword.  All my life I have had to deal with black people, not those of other races, looking down on me for my hair--whether it was natural or whether it was relaxed.  You're natural:  OMG girl your hair is nappy as hell.  You're relaxed:  OMG girl you don't appreciate what God gave you and you are a traitor to the black race.  How dare you alter your natural texture in such a manner?! My whole premise is that we should all accept each other for the choices we make and just let us embrace or wear our hair any way we want to without fearing backlash.



You're right that it is a two-edged sword... the ONLY thing that I think can help the perception of black hair is for black people to embrace it.

Looking at what ShaniKeys said, in her country, everyone is nappy, so white folks just have to accept it. Her country is waaaay whiter than the USA and has fewer black folks, yet Belgians don't seem to break down hair into nappy/straight/whatever because they haven't been indoctrinated into the situation we have here.

The reason the Civil Rights Movement worked back in the day was because a majority of black people of all colors stood up and said, "To hell with this segregation BS!" Now, racism will never go away and we still have issues today, but the fact that black people finally said "ENOUGH!" and started dealing with their beliefs of inferiority (to some degree... we still have a long way to go), made white folks have to change their tune as well.

As for "us," I know there are some naturals who talk about relaxed folks and whatever, but I think that one will be clowned much more for being natural or if not clowned, told that we won't be accepted in corporate America for being natural. So that's pressure to stay "straight," which doesn't help any of us as black people in the long run. And with the majority of black women wearing relaxed hair anyway, the few militant nappies who criticized relaxed women don't have the same effect on the black psyche as the folks who look down on nappy hair. (Or even if your hair is relaxed and pressed, but not bone straight, you'll get called out!!!!)

So yeah, long story short... WE need to just let each other be.


----------



## JustKiya (Jan 29, 2007)

Personally, I don't look down on anyone for preferring straight hair. I'm just saying don't be suprised when your hair is more difficult to deal with (then those who have naturally straight hair) when straight because you are CHANGING IT'S NATURAL STATE. 
I don't look down on anyone for preferring wavy hair. I'm just saying don't get upset when your hair doesn't ACT like the hair of NATURALLY wavy folx, and you can't wash and go and still have wavy hair (if that's not what grows out of your head). 
I'm not sad that people don't want the hair that God gave them, I'm sad that people think that God cursed them with the hair they have because it's different from the hair of other folx.


----------



## navsegda (Jan 29, 2007)

Also, I feel that some people think that if you don't like something about yourself that it is a personal affront to your race.  So what if you don't like your nose or your eye color or your height or your hair or something else?  If you don't like your nose, breasts, or hips and you are black that does NOT mean that you are somehow rejecting blackness, even if the features of the aforementioned may be seen as prevalent "black" characteristics to some people.  If you are black and you don't like your hair texture that also does not mean you are rejecting blackness.  If you are female and you don't like the pain of childbirth, that does not mean you are rejecting your womanhood in anyway.  The list goes on and on.  The point is:  not all black people have big noses, big breasts, and big hips so to say you don't like any of these is not race specific.  Also, not all black people have kinky hair.  They just don't.  Furthermore, not everyone else of other races has straight hair and even a few have the "kinky" hair that several of us do.  Thus, if you say you do not like your hair texture it should not be a personal affront to blackness in any way because it is not 100% unique to all black people in the first place.  We need to stop turning this into a race war.  If there are in fact people who do not like their natural texture for the sole reason that they are black, then that's different, but I haven't seen anyone in this thread say that.


----------



## Enchantmt (Jan 29, 2007)

Ladies this has been a very thought provoking thread. Please keep things civil so we can keep the dialogue going.


----------



## JustKiya (Jan 29, 2007)

I'm missing the race-hatred part - who brought that up? No matter what color you are, if you think that part of who you are NATURALLY is a curse from God...that's seems a bit unhealthy. 

I'm just saying that black people have issues with their hair. I'm not saying that they hate themselves because they straighten their hair. I'm not even saying they hate their hair because they don't like what's growing out of their head. I'm just saying that if we expect other people to respect our hair - straight, nappy, wavy, kinky, curly, short, long, dull, shiny and everything else inbetween - *WE* have to respect our hair first.


----------



## Bunny77 (Jan 29, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> Also, I feel that some people think that if you don't like something about yourself that it is a personal affront to your race.  So what if you don't like your nose or your eye color or your height or your hair or something else?  If you don't like your nose, breasts, or hips and you are black that does NOT mean that you are somehow rejecting blackness, even if the features of the aforementioned may be seen as prevalent "black" characteristics to some people.  If you are black and you don't like your hair texture that also does not mean you are rejecting blackness.  If you are female and you don't like the pain of childbirth, that does not mean you are rejecting your womanhood in anyway.  The list goes on and on.  The point is:  not all black people have big noses, big breasts, and big hips so to say you don't like any of these is not race specific.  Also, not all black people have kinky hair.  They just don't.  Furthermore, not everyone else of other races has straight hair and even a few have the "kinky" hair that several of us do.  Thus, if you say you do not like your hair texture it should not be a personal affront to blackness in any way because it is not 100% unique to all black people in the first place.  We need to stop turning this into a race war.  If there are in fact people who do not like their natural texture for the sole reason that they are black, then that's different, but I haven't seen anyone in this thread say that.



Hi again.  

Again, I think most of us accept this. But when you say that certain characteristics that are associated with being black are a curse, I think that goes beyond simply disliking something.

Also, would we dislike kinky hair or whatever so much if that was the standard of beauty? Again, I'll call myself out. I REALLY don't like my nose, but I love being black and I like black features. But I wonder if I lived somewhere in which my nose was depicted as the standard of beauty, if I'd still dislike it.  I'll never have an answer to that question, of course, but it's interesting to think about.

Another point... I have a somewhat larger booty for my size and I love it. Of course, in the black community, big butts are seen as beautiful, so I'm proud of it. But what if black folks had the "white" asthetic toward big butts and hips and thighs? Would I suddenly dislike my shape?

I think it's too simplistic to ALWAYS say that things are just a preference. It might be only a preference for some people, but I think we'd all be lying to ourselves if we wrote off the preference for straight hair among a majority of black women as just being a mere coincidence.

Again, this is not something that people should be chastized for, but I think we do need to really explore and discuss WHY this is, without dancing around the subject.

So why do most black women in the Western world (and even much of Africa) prefer a hair type that they don't have?

(And I agree with Nappywomyn, no one is saying that anyone here hates their blackness. I don't see that as the issue at all.)


----------



## Country gal (Jan 29, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> This is a two-edged sword.  All my life I have had to deal with black people, not those of other races, looking down on me for my hair--whether it was natural or whether it was relaxed.  You're natural:  OMG girl your hair is nappy as hell.  You're relaxed:  OMG girl you don't appreciate what God gave you and you are a traitor to the black race.  How dare you alter your natural texture in such a manner?! My whole premise is that we should all accept each other for the choices we make and just let us embrace or wear our hair any way we want to without fearing backlash.




I definitely feel you should do what makes you comfortable. I just think we spend so much time not liking what we do have and underappreciate what we got. If someone wants to be relaxed or natural that is there business. I just hope they are happy with the decision they make.


----------



## Enchantmt (Jan 29, 2007)

kally said:
			
		

> I Love seeing natural hair the thickness and beauty of it and would love to have it. My hair just does not  have the thickness and fullness that the Average AA woman has. My have is baby soft and very fine even in its natural state. It is thicker now then when I was a kid, but I have to be extremely carefull about what I do to it, and it seems when I read about others hair care they do as well, this is why I figured it is the hair is hard to maintain.



You've just answered your own question as to why you are having problems growing your hair. IT'S BABY SOFT AND FINE. Even if your hair is kinky, if the strands are fine textured it will tend to break more with out proper handling. If you are using a relaxer, especially if it is too harsh, you could literally disolve your hair or weaken it to the extent that it breaks. When I used to relax I stopped relaxing my nape, simply running the relaxer through after i fininished relaxing the rest of my hair (or sometimes not at all) for this very reason. There are also some ladies here who do not relax their napes as it is finer and prone to breakage or go natural for this reason. When I was relaxing, my hair at the nape would be 2-3 inches in length at the most. Now that I'm natural it is 7-8inches and still growing. High heat will damage your hair faster than ladies with thicker strands as well.

 You know what you have, develop a way to work with your hair to help it thrive. Maybe try henna as it coats the hair with a protein that will reinforce your hair. I suggest doing a search or starting a thread asking ladies with fine hair how they care for it to maximize retention.


----------



## KeyahGirl (Jan 29, 2007)

nappywomyn said:
			
		

> I don't look down on anyone for preferring wavy hair. I'm just saying don't get upset when your hair doesn't ACT like the hair of NATURALLY wavy folx, and you can't wash and go and still have wavy hair (if that's not what grows out of your head).



I understand this, and to a large extent, I agree with this, but I think you're being too hard on folks. Grass-is-greener syndrome is what it is. Would you tell a person who is upset that a person with rich parents can skate through life without working while this person has to bust her arse day in and day out not to be upset? There's only so much, "Love yourself" that people are going to heed.

I, personally, take responsibility for what I do to my hair. I understand that in chemically straightening it, I am degrading the integrity, causingly possible irreparable damage to my hair and scalp and ensuring that I will be fighting a battle to keep it on my head as long as I continue to relax. I don't blame anyone for its condition or for why it grows out the way it grows out. I prefer another texture and that's on me. I get that. I'm not blaming my mama, God, you, the man in the moon or anyone that I don't have that texture naturally.

But that doesn't mean I can't sympathize with people who are coming from a place of pain about this. We are called minorities for a reason - our voices and perspectives deviate from the majority view. Do you really believe that if every black person in the world wore natural styles that there'd be that big a shift in what is considered beautiful in this society? I personally don't believe so, because our voices are not large enough to affect change. That's just my opinion.

Now, if we voted with our pocketbooks, that's another thing. Black people have enormous buying power. If we turned away from relaxers, weaves, wigs, etc. and embraced our natural kinks, then and only then might you see a perception shift in this country.

I respect your ideas on self-love. But it's a utopian view. As I said in my prior post, we have to live here and accept that there are certain things that are the way they are. Enough self love in the world isn't going to mean diddly squat if Charlie Whiteboy decides he doesn't want a girl with an Afro working at his bank. When perception is such that you're starting to feel it in your pocketbook, then your priorities and your views start to change. One of the most eye-opening TV episodes ever was in "A Different World" when Cree Summer's character straightened her natural hair to go on job interviews and got much more positive response than when her hair was in it's natural state. Again, society is what it is, and until we as a people start backing our self-love up with our dollars, people are still going to suffer from what OTHER people want us to look and act like.


----------



## navsegda (Jan 29, 2007)

Bunny77 said:
			
		

> Hi again.
> 
> Again, I think most of us accept this. But when you say that certain characteristics that are associated with being black are a curse, I think that goes beyond simply disliking something.
> 
> ...


Heylo.    I can't answer for everyone else, but like I said in another thread, if everyone and their mom decided to wear their hair curly now I would still stay straight because it's what I like best on me.  I like looking at natural hair on others (like Camellia, Pokahontas, so1913 to name a few, by the way I'm not trying to criticize anyone else by not calling them out) but that doesn't mean I want it for myself.

Also, I've been picked on for a lot of things in life.  Just because I've been picked on in the past for being natural or now for being relaxed doesn't mean that I choose one or the other over someone else's opinion.  I was also picked on growing up by people because I was smart and liked to read, but that didn't make me want to make my grades slip to try to fit in or stop reading so I could go walk the streets.

Again, I can't speak for everyone else, but I prefer straight hair because I love the feel of it, I love my hair blowing in the wind, I love the ease at which my comb glides through it, I love how it looks on me, I love how it's easier for ME to manage.  I also ride horses because I love riding them.  I have also been made fun of by several black people for horseback riding because it's thought of as a "white" sport and let's be real, not as many black people do hunter/jumper equitation as whites lol.  I'm not going to like something or dislike something based on what other people are doing or aren't doing.  Maybe several women in the Western world like straight hair for the same reasons I do, maybe others are influenced by some people's standards of beauty.


----------



## Bunny77 (Jan 29, 2007)

KeyahGirl said:
			
		

> But that doesn't mean I can't sympathize with people who are coming from a place of pain about this. We are called minorities for a reason - our voices and perspectives deviate from the majority view. Do you really believe that if every black person in the world wore natural styles that there'd be that big a shift in what is considered beautiful in this society? I personally don't believe so, because our voices are not large enough to affect change. That's just my opinion.
> 
> * Actually, I think it would go a long way toward changing the perception that natural hair is ugly. When black people stood up during the Civil Rights Movement to DEMAND that we be accepted as equals, things changed. Now yes, racism is still alive and well, but our voices helped get rid of the whole "Whites Only" form of segregation that kept us out of many jobs, schools and certain neighborhoods. And don't forget, back in the 70s, black folks wore Afros in corporate America all the time (I've seen the pictures.) We said this is how we're gonna be, so you better accept it, and guess what? White folks basically did.
> 
> ...



You're more likely to see Leroy Blackboy decide this than Charlie Whiteboy... the latest issues that have made the news regarding black hair all involve black companies (Hampton University, Baltimore Police, Black Enterprise Magazine). Six Flags, which is white-owned, drafted its policy with input from BLACK people in regards to black hair. Other natural women I know have said that BLACK co-workers have talked to their white bosses with "concerns" about black hair... so that plants the seed in white folks' minds that there's a problem. 

There are enough examples of natural black women thriving in corporate America to make me believe that it's not Charlie Whiteboy that's the problem.

As for a Different World... let's not forget that was a BLACK show featuring a BLACK college, so I'm not surprised they'd have that idea that you need to straighten your hair to get a job. Freddie was portrayed as a flake throughout that show UNTIL she straightened, which I think was an accurate reflection of how BLACK people feel about natural hair, not all of mainstream society.


----------



## Aubergold (Jan 29, 2007)

ok I'm just gonna say this:

yes our hair is difficult (mostly b/c we can't/don't want to wear it as is, we try to mimic techniques of other groups of people who have a completely different hair type.  Whatver that's your choice and no one has to live with it but you so everyone has to do what they want.

BUT: OUR HAIR IS NOT A CURSE.  repeat, OUR HAIR IS NOT A CURSE.  We are not cursed by God, he loves us.  We were not cursed by some white scientists somewhere.  We were not cursed by nature.  It is what it is, some genotypes are expressed as by-products of evolution (or God) or no reason at all.  There are really no use for male nipples in modern ages, yet men still have them.  It is what it is.

OUR HAIR IS NOT A CURSE.  love ya'll!


----------



## Bunny77 (Jan 29, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> Heylo.    I can't answer for everyone else, but like I said in another thread, if everyone and their mom decided to wear their hair curly now I would still stay straight because it's what I like best on me.  I like looking at natural hair on others (like Camellia, Pokahontas, so1913 to name a few, by the way I'm not trying to criticize anyone else by not calling them out) but that doesn't mean I want it for myself.
> 
> Also, I've been picked on for a lot of things in life.  Just because I've been picked on in the past for being natural or now for being relaxed doesn't mean that I choose one or the other over someone else's opinion.  I was also picked on growing up by people because I was smart and liked to read, but that didn't make me want to make my grades slip to try to fit in or stop reading so I could go walk the streets.
> 
> Again, I can't speak for everyone else, but I prefer straight hair because I love the feel of it, I love my hair blowing in the wind, I love the ease at which my comb glides through it, I love how it looks on me, I love how it's easier for ME to manage.  I also ride horses because I love riding them.  I have also been made fun of by several black people for horseback riding because it's thought of as a "white" sport and let's be real, not as many black people do hunter/jumper equitation as whites lol.  I'm not going to like something or dislike something based on what other people are doing or aren't doing.  Maybe several women in the Western world like straight hair for the same reasons I do, maybe others are influenced by some people's standards of beauty.



That's cool... and yeah, I was picked on for the same things, like being smart, getting good grades, reading a lot, doing "white" things like eating sushi (and that's Japanese food... what the heck?  ).

Your hair looks good as well. For some people, it is just hair and you sound like someone secure in herself and her choices, which is all good. 

I think it's hard for most women to get that way and I do think there's a stigma many black women have about their hair. I think it's a thing where we all need to be truly honest with ourselves about our choices (whatever they are) and not just spout off cliches without why we do whatever we do!

(don't know if that made sense!)


----------



## Enchantmt (Jan 29, 2007)

KeyahGirl said:
			
		

> I think this is disingenuous, frankly. It isn't our perception - it's reality and it's influenced by the majority. When you have schools barring natural hairstyles like braids, is that "our" perception? If you have people like my cousin, who has had beautiful, Cassandra Wilson-like locs for most of her adult life and was written up by her "liberal" law firm for "unkempt appearance" and was later told that it was her locs that made them think that she wasn't the "right sort of minority person" to be in their firm, is it "our" perception that our hair is difficult?
> 
> When you are denied a gig or looked at like you stink or asked if you can bathe with "those things" in your hair, is it "our" perception that our hair is difficult?
> 
> ...



I bascially agree with what you are saying, but our perception was changed due to the influence by the majority. It's not the reality of our hair, its beauty or lack of is still someones personal perception. (eye of the beholder and whatnot).

 When we were brought forcibly here, we didnt have the tools necessary to care for our hair. There was breakage, damage, fungus, scalp sores and everything to contend with from the inablity to properly care for our hair. Trying to survive I'm sure took priority over a hairstyle.  There were laws stating we had to cover our hair. That it couldnt be seen in public. Use of relaxers and pressing combs made us "socially acceptable". We need to know that is part of our history and part of why folx react so strongly to relaxed vs natural and our hair in general. Even if these thoughts are not verbally expressed, the social stigma is still there. We've had over 300 years of social conditioning with no memory of our natural beauty before coming to this country. The beauty standard is learned.  I've mentioned it before, but get the sisterlocks book. It has a lot of info about how our past is influencing our present. 

 Some of us are taking steps to reeducate ourselves. We see women here everyday, who even if they arent or will never take the step to becoming natural, have learned to not hate their hair texture by learning to stretch their relaxers. They have discovered that we have been told lies, that our texture is not "bad". They dont run and hide at the first sign of their "ugly newgrowth" and even if they feel its not right for them, can at least admire the beauty of natural hair on another woman. It's ok to like straight hair. I love straight hair. One day I may go back to it. Wanting to be rid of the chemicals has been what has been keeping me on the natural track. 

Not everyone is at the same place. We still have social images that tell us to be nappy is to be ugly. Rules that try to crop up, such as restrictions on natural styles that relate that something "isnt right" with our hair in its natural state.  So even with our own personal revelations we still have some mental work to do. If you are open to it, the change will come, even if it doesnt come all at once.


----------



## JustKiya (Jan 29, 2007)

*smiles & sighs* 

I guess that I was blessed in that I grew up deviant, so being different as an adult is normal to me. I don't 'fit' in to popular culture in many ways, and I thank my upbringing on a daily basis for the blessing that allows me to be happy with who I am and what I have - rather than chasing after something else because some random stranger who wants to shape my worldview says it's so. 

Perhaps the reasons that I don't see that my views on selflove are utopian because it's how I love myself. I started dreadlocs - while working for a huge multimillion dollar corporation and traveling overseas to be the face of that corporation. I started wearing natural hair at an all black college where I was the poor girl working a job and on a scholarship while all the 'rich' girls skated through on daddy's money. I cut all my hair off and dyed it bright red at another multimillion dollar corporation. 
I don't accept that 'things are the way they are' and I have no voice, no option, no choice to change things into how they SHOULD be. If Charlie Whiteboy doesn't want be working at his bank and has the nerve to say that my hair is why, Charlie Whiteboy will be meeting Mr. Lawyer, as well as a vocal campaign letting every black person who walks through that door knowing just how Charlie feels about black people. 

I REFUSE to accept that because things ARE they way that they are - I shouldn't fight, scream, beg, convince, protest and boycott until they are right. And each time WE lay down and say 'Oh, maybe Mr. Whiteboy right, and my hair ISN'T acceptable' instead of standing up and saying 'Mr. Whiteboy you are WRONG because my hair is just fine - and me and all 200 of your other black customers agree' then yes, society will be as it is. 

The problem is - it's usually Mr Tyrone Blackman telling me (or telling Mr Charlie) that there is something wrong with my hair.....


----------



## gymfreak336 (Jan 29, 2007)

Bunny77 said:
			
		

> That's cool... and yeah, I was picked on for the same things, like being smart, getting good grades, reading a lot, doing "white" things like* eating sushi (and that's Japanese food... what the heck?  ).*
> 
> Your hair looks good as well. For some people, it is just hair and you sound like someone secure in herself and her choices, which is all good.
> 
> *I think it's hard for most women to get that way and I do think there's a stigma many black women have about their hair. I think it's a thing where we all need to be truly honest with ourselves about our choices (whatever they are) and not just spout off cliches without why we do whatever we do!*(don't know if that made sense!)




I got picked on for doing "white" things like kimchi which is korean 

Ditto to the second part. I am one of three girls and we all wear a relaxer. I went natural one summer and I enjoyed it. I have thought about doing it again. My mother however is natural, and she has been for the past 30 years. My mom never made us get a relaxer. My sisters and I all got relaxers mostly because of limited styling skills. We were getting older and busier and my mom didn't have nearly as much time to blow dry and press us all. We decided to try relaxers for a while. We all have bounced back and forth from relaxed hair to natural hair in our lives. My parents taught me that hair is just hair and that you can do what ever to you want to it. I think having a mother who didn't stress appearance and looked different from the norm (as far as being natural) helped me adopt this attitude.


----------



## Enchantmt (Jan 29, 2007)

nappywomyn said:
			
		

> God DIDN'T. It has been OUR choice to manipulate our hair to look like something that doesn't GROW out of our heads. It has been our CHOICE to believe that our hair - as it grows - isn't gorgeous, beautiful and wonderful. It's our PERCEPTION that we HAVE to tame/manage/control our hair that makes it difficult. It's the IDEA that the whole world should have straight, glasshiny, flowing and blowing in the wind hair that makes it DIFFICULT.
> 
> That ain't God... that's US.



Excellent!!!

And I agree with your other post, we are no longer in the position where we have to remain powerless. Once we make it clear that we will not let our hair be deemed unworthy by others, they will accept it, but we have to get to that place first. WE have to be convinced first.


----------



## nomoweavesfome (Jan 29, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> See, that's the thing I want to know. Did God MAKE our hair like this from the beginning of time or is it something that we or the climate or WHATEVER else did to alter our texture permanently somewhere along our history? Yes, God is perfect but human beings are not.


 
ok - I did not read through all the pages but about 5 pages through I had to respond:
In Isaiah 3 vs 16-26 I received thorough the scripture the reason why our hair is different.  To me it also sums up our love for jewelry the bling, and why we are the way we are as a people.  check it out for yourself:
*Passage Isaiah 3:16-26:
*

   16Moreover the LORD saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet: 
*17Therefore the LORD will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, *and the LORD will discover their secret parts. 
   18In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon, 
   19The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers, 
   20The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings, 
   21The rings, and nose jewels, 
   22The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins, 
   23The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the vails. 
   24And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and *instead of well set hair baldness*; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty. 
   25Thy men shall fall by the sword, and thy mighty in the war.    26And her gates shall lament and mourn; and she being desolate shall sit upon the ground.

King James Version (KJV)


----------



## JewelleNY (Jan 29, 2007)

*Bunny and Nappywomyn are are point today 

I want to pose this question for those who want to ask God why he/she did this to us.  What would you do if you got to heaven and God had a fro???    Seriously, what if God had kinky/curly hair, how would you feel then?   Remember, Jesus had hair like lamb's wool and wasn't he created in the image of God, as we all are???

I would like to challenge those who find their hair so difficult to stop straightening, stop relaxing, just leave it alone and stop fighting the natural texture for a while.  Watch and see how long and thick it will grow then, with very little effort.  You'd be surprised *


----------



## Bunny77 (Jan 29, 2007)

gymfreak336 said:
			
		

> I got picked on for doing "white" things like kimchi which is korean
> 
> Ditto to the second part. I am one of three girls and we all wear a relaxer. I went natural one summer and I enjoyed it. I have thought about doing it again. My mother however is natural, and she has been for the past 30 years. My mom never made us get a relaxer. My sisters and I all got relaxers mostly because of limited styling skills. We were getting older and busier and my mom didn't have nearly as much time to blow dry and press us all. We decided to try relaxers for a while. We all have bounced back and forth from relaxed hair to natural hair in our lives. My parents taught me that hair is just hair and that you can do what ever to you want to it. I think having a mother who didn't stress appearance and looked different from the norm (as far as being natural) helped me adopt this attitude.



White people gotta have everything, don't they?  

As for the hair thing... I know some women who jump from relaxed to free-form afro natural to weaves to braids to dreads to TWA to pressed... and they are so fun to be around because they're always switching it up! 

And I know that I can't and shouldn't make a judgment about people based only on the style they're currently wearing now... relaxed/pressed doesn't mean they "hate themselves," and natural doesn't mean that they're "conscious" -- you really don't know.

The people I'm mostly speaking of are the ones who feel ashamed if too much new growth starts to show or would ALWAYS choose to throw on a wig or weave if their hair became unhealthy from certain heat or chemical processes instead of trying a natural style. 

Or I hate hearing from women who'd like to consider natural hair, but think they shouldn't because black men wouldn't want them.  

Again, we can't know by looking at someone what's going through their heads... that's why we all need to do some self-evaluation because only we can heal ourselves (if we need to be healed!).


----------



## gymfreak336 (Jan 29, 2007)

Bunny77 said:
			
		

> White people gotta have everything, don't they?
> 
> I know some women who jump from relaxed to free-form afro natural to weaves to braids to dreads to TWA to pressed... and they are so fun to be around because they're always switching it up!
> 
> ...



I agree with mostly what you have said. All in all I think the best way to fight those perceptions and bad attitudes about hair is to treat is as just that. I heard a girl talking about how her hair was too nappy and what not and I just laughed in her face. She looked shocked and asked me what my man says when my hair gets too nappy. I just told her that for starters that any man worth having doesn't care about your hair and I asked her what is nappy? You mean tightly curled? If thats the case then when I get alot of newgrowth, I just run my fingers in my scalp all day long and play with the curls. Its just a sign that my hair is growing. She looked so shocked, like she has never met a black woman who thought like that. I asked her, if you got diagnosed with cancer today and lost all of your hair, you would be thankful of any "naps" you could get.


----------



## Enchantmt (Jan 29, 2007)

nomoweavesfome said:
			
		

> ok - I did not read through all the pages but about 5 pages through I had to respond:
> In Isaiah 3 vs 16-26 I received thorough the scripture the reason why our hair is different.  To me it also sums up our love for jewelry the bling, and why we are the way we are as a people.  check it out for yourself:
> *Passage Isaiah 3:16-26:
> *
> ...




If I recall correctly, the city of zion is the city of david. This passage refers to israelites, not africans.

ETA, I will have to research this further. This is what wiki has on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zion I will get ahold of my brother to get a proper translation.


----------



## Bunny77 (Jan 29, 2007)

gymfreak336 said:
			
		

> I agree with mostly what you have said. All in all I think the best way to fight those perceptions and bad attitudes about hair is to treat is as just that. I heard a girl talking about how her hair was too nappy and what not and I just laughed in her face. She looked shocked and asked me what my man says when my hair gets too nappy. I just told her that for starters that any man worth having doesn't care about your hair and I asked her what is nappy? You mean tightly curled? If thats the case then when I get alot of newgrowth, I just run my fingers in my scalp all day long and play with the curls. Its just a sign that my hair is growing. She looked so shocked, like she has never met a black woman who thought like that. I asked her, if you got diagnosed with cancer today and lost all of your hair, you would be thankful of any "naps" you could get.



Yeah, I think we're on the same page even if we're expressing things differently, but I think we agree on the general point.

Even if you choose not to wear your hair nappy and prefer relaxing, don't hate or feel ashamed of the napps.   The fact that we have to get touch-ups is good... it means our hair is growing and that's what matters!!


----------



## nomoweavesfome (Jan 29, 2007)

Enchantmt said:
			
		

> If I recall correctly, the city of zion is the city of david. This passage refers to israelites, not africans.


 
 right - and depending on your religion or however you study geography in the bible it may  or may not apply to you. I believe that we come from the descedents of Isrealites. But I will not go there in this thread at all.  It will be too controversial.  I believe I come from the tribe of Judah and again it takes extensive study to even get that much.  But many may agree or not agree but point in case, it is in the bible AND the Lord said it.  It's just a point of reference.


----------



## Bunny77 (Jan 29, 2007)

JewelleNY said:
			
		

> *
> I want to pose this question for those who want to ask God why he/she did this to us.  What would you do if you got to heaven and God had a fro??? *


*

I would fall over. And then smile.  

Thanks for the shout out!*


----------



## keluric (Jan 29, 2007)

nappywomyn said:
			
		

> The thing is - white women have to worry about that too!! I'm on a majority white hair board - and they talk about the SAME STUFF - making satin seat cover so their hair won't rub on the back of their seats. Blowdrying their hair straight every morning because they don't want their 'waves'. Wonder what the best treatment is (oil or conditioner) to leave-in their hair while in the sun and sand of the beach - AND they worry about the salt in their hair after they work out.
> 
> I really think it's a misconception that black people are the ONLY ones who do things (chemical/mechanical) to their hair because they aren't happy with how it grows out of their hair. Black people aren't the ONLY ones who struggle to grow their hair out - we are just the ones who fight our natural texture the most.


 
You are SO right!  I say this over and over again but it's the "white" products that take up two aisles at the drugstores and Wal-Marts, not ours.  White women have been doing things to their hair since the beginning of time and silly us for thinking they just had it like that.  

I remember I was at a conference and there were maybe four other girls (three of which were white) staying in my suite.  When I got up to do my hair, I couldn't even plug in my curling iron because they were up at the crack of dawn frying their hair just to put it in a ponytail.  I know VERY few white women who just wash and go.  They may or may not be able to but most do not.


----------



## Aubergold (Jan 29, 2007)

nomoweavesfome said:
			
		

> right - and depending on your religion or however you study geography in the bible it may  or may not apply to you. I believe that we come from the descedents of Isrealites. But I will not go there in this thread at all.  It will be too controversial.  I believe I come from the tribe of Judah and again it takes extensive study to even get that much.  But many may agree or not agree but point in case, it is in the bible AND the Lord said it.  It's just a point of reference.



stupid question, lol
DO mainland Africans come from the Israelites? I know some people think descendants of slaves do but what about modern day Africans?  WHy would they have this hair?


----------



## Jaizee (Jan 29, 2007)

nappywomyn said:
			
		

> *reads entire thread*
> 
> *shakes her head*
> 
> ...


 
I could just   you right about now (no homo)! This has to be the best post I've ever read. THANK YOU!!!


----------



## JewelleNY (Jan 29, 2007)

Bunny77 said:
			
		

> I would fall over. And then smile.
> 
> Thanks for the shout out!


----------



## firecracker (Jan 29, 2007)

Bunny77 said:
			
		

> Oh, and I think the reason some people are getting a little bothered is not because some folks prefer straight hair and some don't, but because the underlying idea being floated around is that there's something inherently WRONG with the way our hair is.
> 
> Ok so your saying it sorta like taking offense to the bs idealogy all black people are bad,criminals and angry?  If thats the case I can understand that but still lets not dismiss certain folk feelings and say ya'll repulsive.
> 
> ...


 
*Again it all starts from within and your frame of mind.   Look at all the choices you have with that ball of confusion on top of our head.  *
*Women of all races become frustrated when they seek certain hair choices or goals be it color, wanting curls, straight styles, no frizzies.  There are loads of products made for all women to prevent this or that.  Its not simply a black thang.  *

*I still think the women that feel so called cursed by the nappy hair demon still need an outlet w/o being called names and ridiculed for sharing the hair drama.  *

* *


----------



## Bunny77 (Jan 29, 2007)

firecracker said:
			
		

> *Again it all starts from within and your frame of mind.   Look at all the choices you have with that ball of confusion on top of our head.  *
> *Women of all races become frustrated when they seek certain hair choices or goals be it color, wanting curls, straight styles, no frizzies.  There are loads of products made for all women to prevent this or that.  Its not simply a black thang.  *
> 
> *I still think the women that feel so called cursed by the nappy hair demon still need an outlet w/o being called names and ridiculed for sharing the hair drama.  *
> ...



Hey... you might still be reading through the thread, but I clarified my statements a little more in other posts. 

My point was not that folks couldn't share their feelings or want a different type of hair, but that we shouldn't look at it as God cursing us just because we don't have a texture that we might prefer.

I think most of us who are bothered are bothered by the theory of black hair being inherently bad, not the people themselves who are sharing their thoughts.


----------



## firecracker (Jan 29, 2007)

Bunny77 said:
			
		

> Hey... you might still be reading through the thread, but I clarified my statements a little more in other posts.
> 
> My point was not that folks couldn't share their feelings or want a different type of hair, but that *we shouldn't look at it as God cursing us just because we don't have a texture that we might prefer.*
> 
> I think most of us who are bothered are bothered by the theory of black hair being inherently bad, not the people themselves who are sharing their thoughts.


 
I read and totally agree with what your saying.  The bolded is absolutely the real.  

While I may feel blessed to have a thick bush on the flip side of that I sometimes feel bad for those with thin hair no matter what race.  
That female pattern baldness that I witness on many women of all races is scary *** hell to me.  I'd shave my head like Telly Savalas/Kojak b4 I do a Donald Trump.   

All in all we have to find a place of peace and acceptance for what God gave us.  We are not cursed by the nappy hair demon


----------



## Bublnbrnsuga (Jan 29, 2007)

Crissi said:
			
		

> Our hair isnâ€™t the problem, we are! Its as simple as that we make it anissue.I will keep re-illiterating my point about black men, if its sooooo hard to grow hair, how comes they never have a problem?!! They just leave it alone, as its meant to be, we wanna have it fried, died and laid to the side. Then complain about not getting somewhere. Something ainâ€™t going to love you if you donâ€™t love it back. Our hair IS NOT FRAGILE, im sick of society telling us that crap, its so fragile that we need DRAIN CLEANER â€“ oh sorry I mean relaxers, to straighten itâ€¦oh please that doesnâ€™t sound fragile to me.
> 
> Further more I think itâ€™s a western society thing, because being of west indian heritage I know for sure that blacks can grow hair. Damn near EVERYONE in my family had long hair until THEY took farse and wanted to â€œexperimentâ€.  Ironically that was when they came over here (to the west), or atleast woke up to the ways of the west, and some what felt the need to assimilate to the their â€œstandards of beautyâ€
> 
> ...



At first I was not going to come in here, but I am glad that I did because you hit it dead on the head.

Get the mind right and you won't think of your hair, especially if it's considered kinky, as difficult to deal with, point blank.


----------



## Bublnbrnsuga (Jan 29, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> Here's something else I've been wondering:  why is it that if you say you wish you had a different texture of hair, some people become automatically offended but if you say you wish you were taller, had bigger boobs, a bigger butt, smaller feet, etc. you don't get the same negative "race traitor" type response?



I think you know the answer to this.

What has been the center of hate/dislike/disgust amongst blacks in general when it comes to apperance, which begins at a VERY young age? HAIR TEXTURE!  Who mainly relaxes/presses/texturizes to get the slightest kink out of the hair, in an effort to make it more 'manageable'... BLACK WOMEN!  

Kinky/nappy/curly/wavy hair is very distinctive amongst us and is one of the main features that sets us apart from other races, yet we tend to not embrace these special features but rather ridicule them.

Someone here mentioned before that when it comes to being different, many times those differences are praised, ie, blue eyes/blond hair, etc, but when it comes to kinky hair, a feature that is so different, so special in our race, it's something that's shunned. That girl was so right about this.

Those other issues you mentioned are unchangeable, ie height, smaller feet,etc and others cost too dang much, bigger boobs, etc. Many do long for what they can't have and by knowing they can't get them, they just learn to be content with how God made them.


----------



## Crissi (Jan 29, 2007)

Bublnbrnsuga said:
			
		

> At first I was not going to come in here, but I am glad that I did because you hit it dead on the head.
> 
> Get the mind right and you won't think of your hair, especially if it's considered kinky, as difficult to deal with, point blank.


 
Wow, well thank you, and thank you to all the others.

Crissi, x


----------



## navsegda (Jan 29, 2007)

Bublnbrnsuga said:
			
		

> I think you know the answer to this.
> 
> What has been the center of hate/dislike/disgust amongst blacks in general when it comes to apperance, which begins at a VERY young age? HAIR TEXTURE!  Who mainly relaxes/presses/texturizes to get the slightest kink out of the hair, in an effort to make it more 'manageable'... BLACK WOMEN!
> 
> ...



Texture has not been the only thing that has been a problem for little girls.  Sometimes, it's the mere skin color.  Yes, there have been people of other races who have made black women feel uncomfortable about their hair texture, however, these same people mostly focused on the blackness.  The hair texture was just a by-product.  When slavemasters and Klan lynched black women the last thing on their minds was the hair on their head; it was first and foremost the color of their skin.  When we were discriminated against it was because of the color of our skin, anything that came after that (such as negative comments toward hair, noses, etc.) just came with the territory.  However, you can dislike the texture and be removed from the race because even though many of us have the kinky texture, several others in our race do not have this and there are a few others in other races that have kinky hair.

If you argue for hair texture, you could also argue for other features that white people may have hated because they thought they symbolized blackness:  big lips and big noses for instance (which we were made fun of for having but we all know we are not the only ones who have this even if others tried to make it seem different).  If you dislike kinky hair because you are black, then that's an issue.  However, if you dislike kinky hair for a variety of other reasons totally removed from the race, then that's your choice.

Also, the point remains that white girls straighten the mess out of their hair or perm the mess out of it to be curly without the same type of backlash that a black person gets for say straightening her hair for whatever reason. I knew of several little white girls also at a very YOUNG age who got their hair permed growing up because it was what was popular.


----------



## esoterica (Jan 29, 2007)

i would love to have wash & go hair but its never gonna happen. even if my hair was in its 100% natural state i couldnt get away with a simple shampoo and condition like everyone else. that's life.


----------



## envybeauty (Jan 29, 2007)

OP: i feel you.  

I don't know about the others but I feel you.  I'm glad others have had nothing but great hair experiences all their lives but my hair journey has not always been easy. 

For me, it is NOT about a low self esteem or not having hair care skills  (as I lack NEITHER), but it is the reality (semantic lovers out here can substitute "reality" for "perception") that my hair is not easy to deal with as I comb, curl, wash, style, etc.

If you were to replace "hair" with "lives" as in "was our lives meant to be this difficult" -- i think others would feel you and stop acting like hair is so easy to deal with.  Nothing in life is easy and Black hair care is no exception. ....


----------



## Bublnbrnsuga (Jan 29, 2007)

ShaniKeys said:
			
		

> I don't think our hair is difficult, I think we lack the expertise - or at least not enough - to take proper care of it, and that is something we need to work on harder. All we've tried to do - most of us - is fight against (=weaves, relaxing, texturizing,...etc) our natural hair instead of finding proper ways to take care of it. The reason why we feel it is difficult is because we constantly compare it with hair from people of other ethnic backgrounds (whites, asians, latino's, indians). And that comparison leads to several conclusions: we can't comb our hair, it doesn't grow just as fast, it doesn't fall down...etc. While we should be wondering: was our hair meant to be combed? does it really not grow just as fast? how can hair that curls UP fall DOWN?! I think we problematize our hair.




Can I use this is my siggy? Dang, between you and Mahalilee's (sp?) post, I don't know if I will have enough room to put these response in my siggy!!

ON POINT!


----------



## Country gal (Jan 29, 2007)

esoterica said:
			
		

> i would love to have wash & go hair but its never gonna happen. even if my hair was in its 100% natural state i couldnt get away with a simple shampoo and condition like everyone else. that's life.




Really. Have you tried it yet? I use to think I didn't have wash and go hair but I certainly do. My hair in it's natural state can be washed and I am out the door.


----------



## firecracker (Jan 29, 2007)

esoterica said:
			
		

> i would love to have wash & go hair but its never gonna happen. even if my hair was in its 100% natural state i couldnt get away with a simple shampoo and condition like everyone else. that's life.


 
Sweetie have you tried it?  If so for how long?  Did you give different products and techniques a try?  We have awesome beautiful manageable hair girl.


----------



## Country gal (Jan 29, 2007)

JewelleNY said:
			
		

> *Bunny and Nappywomyn are are point today
> 
> I want to pose this question for those who want to ask God why he/she did this to us.  What would you do if you got to heaven and God had a fro???    Seriously, what if God had kinky/curly hair, how would you feel then?   Remember, Jesus had hair like lamb's wool and wasn't he created in the image of God, as we all are???
> 
> I would like to challenge those who find their hair so difficult to stop straightening, stop relaxing, just leave it alone and stop fighting the natural texture for a while.  Watch and see how long and thick it will grow then, with very little effort.  You'd be surprised *




My hair has never been so thick in my adult life.


----------



## Bublnbrnsuga (Jan 29, 2007)

Bunny77 said:
			
		

> This thread saddens me.
> 
> I'm not gonna get all deep, but I wanna bring up a few points.
> 
> ...




Bunny, say dat!


----------



## Bublnbrnsuga (Jan 29, 2007)

nappywomyn said:
			
		

> And as long as black woman are asking why God CURSED them with the natural texture of that hair - things are NEVER going to change. Until WE send out the message that WE are proud of OUR hair - just as it grows out of our head, OF COURSE people are going to assume there is something wrong with it. Heck, *WE* believe there is something 'wrong' with our hair.
> 
> All of the above examples sound like out and out ignorance - a chance to educate the OTHER about the truth of our hair - that only WE can speak on, because only WE know our hair. Over on NP, they started a petition with the BPD tried to say that natural hairstyles weren't allowed - and the BALTIMORE POLICE DEPARTMENT backed down because a bunch of loud, proud, black people stood up and said - NO. There is NOTHING wrong with our hair the way it comes out of our head, and YOU will not try to implement rules that make it seem like there is.
> 
> ...





Girl, I have no words. I have no words....


----------



## Bublnbrnsuga (Jan 29, 2007)

nappywomyn said:
			
		

> HELLO???!!??  *shakes head*
> 
> White people/Asian People/Indian people know JACK all about our hair. In fact, our NATURAL hair intrigues them - *LOL* I've had some of the FUNNIEST conversations about hair with white folx - who were asking innocent like a child questions about my NATURAL hair - because they didn't even REALIZE there was a big thing about natural hair. My white girlfriends are SHOCKED when I show them a hairstyle and say it would be considered unacceptable to other black folks.
> 
> ...




Aren't you in Memphis? Girl we have GOTSTA meet! Love ya!


----------



## nomoweavesfome (Jan 29, 2007)

RavenIvygurl said:
			
		

> stupid question, lol
> DO mainland Africans come from the Israelites? I know some people think descendants of slaves do but what about modern day Africans? WHy would they have this hair?


 
*not a stupid question Queen*,
Birthed from Noah sons were *Shem, Ham, and Japeth* - Genesis 5:32 According to geography *Sham spread out to Asia*, *Japheth to Europe* and *Ham throughout Africa*

Here's some reading and I'll leave it at that. Want to know more just pm me and I'll pm you.

*[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]Greetings in the Name of the Most High! The world should focus on love, but because of hate, this place is corrupt & pitiful. Still, we can make a better change now, by learning about Noah's three sons, where all human beings are traced from biblically. Shem, Cham, and Yepheth were united as brothers, & so can the world be! Let us read from the Bible. [/FONT]*
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]*Genesis 10:1*[/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]*Now these are the generations of the sons of No'ah, Shem, Cham, & Yepheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.*[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Arial Black, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif][FONT=Arial Black, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]*SONS OF SHEM*[/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]*Unto Shem also, the father of all the children of Eber, the brother of Yepheth the elder, even to him were children born. The children of Shem; Elam, and Asshur, and Arphaxad, and Lud, and Aram. And the children of Aram; Uz, and Hul, and Gether, and Mash. And Arphaxad begat Salah; and Salah begat Eber. And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother's name was Joktan. And Joktan begat Almodad, and Sheleph, and Hazar-maveth, and Jerah, And Hadoram, and Uzal, and Diklah, And Obal, and Abimael, and Sheba, And Ophir, and Havilah, and Jobab: all these were the sons of Joktan. And their dwelling was from Mesha, as thou goest unto Sephar a mount of the east. These are the sons of Sem, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations. (21-31)*[/FONT]

*Shem's children also populated Africa, mainly Northeast Africa, & Asia. His seed even migrated to the Caribbean/Pacific Islands. *

[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]*SONS OF HAM *[/FONT][/FONT]

*[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]And the sons of Cham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Kaanan. And the sons of Cush; Seba, and Havilah, and Sabtah, and Raamah, and Sabtecha: and the sons of Raamah; Sheba, and Dedan. And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth. He was a mighty hunter before JAH: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before YAH. And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. Out of that land went forth Asshur, and builded Nineveh, and the city Rehoboth, and Calah, And Resen between Nineveh and Calah: the same is a great city. And Mizraim begat Ludim, and Anamim, and Lehabim, and Naphtuhim, And Pathrusim, and Casluhim, (out of whom came Philistim,) and Caphtorim. And Kaanan begat Sidon his firstborn, and Heth, And the Jebusite, and the Amorite, and the Girgasite, And the Hivite, and the Arkite, and the Sinite, And the Arvadite, and the Zemarite, and the Hamathite: and afterward were the families of the Kaanites spread abroad. And the border of the Kaanites was from Sidon, as thou comest to Gerar, unto Gaza; as thou goest, unto Sodom, and Gomorrah, and Admah, and Zeboim, even unto Lasha. These are the sons of Kam, after their families, after their tongues, in their countries, and in their nations. [/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif](6-20) [/FONT]**Check this pic of Noah & His Three Sons's dark features. **Ham*
*We even read from Genesis, that Kana'an(Canaan) was cursed by No'ah because Cham saw his nudity. **[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]"And No'ah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. And Cham, the father of Kana'an, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. And Shem and Yepheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. And No'ah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. And he said, Cursed be Kana'an; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. And he said, Blessed be Yahwah of Shem; and Kana'an shall be his servant. Yah shall enlarge Yepheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Kana'an shall be his servant. (Genesis 9: 21-27)[/FONT]*[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]
[/FONT]
* Cham's seed lived in northeast Africa, but later on migrated to the whole African continent. *

[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]*SONS OF JAPHETH*[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]*The sons of Yepheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Yavan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tirac. And the sons of Gomer; Ashkanaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah. And the sons of Yavan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. By these were the isles of Gowy divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.( 2-5)*[/FONT]

*Yepheth unlike his family was born an albino(yellowish). But after the Flood, he & his albino seed migrated towards the cold inorder to avoid the sun, since they were albinos. He and his seed then became pale through colder climatic conditions. Europeans are classified as being His children, but not all Japhites were white. There were some who remained in the warmer regions being dark skinned. The Isles of Goyim, (the Mediterranean) also consist of these numerous dark skinned Gentiles. Shemites seperated from Yepheth's seed, & saw them as Gentiles(heathens), only because they didn't follow Yisra'el customs. **[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]"When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of 'Ahdawm, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Yisra'el.(Dueteronomy 32: 8) *[/FONT]
*[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]These are the families of the sons of No'ah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood. (Gen 10:31)[/FONT]*

*[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]The Creator did divide the nations into three places, Africa, Asia, & Europe. Before the seven continents, these were the only territories that were populated by the people then. New Jerusalem is where Yisrael and the great multitude will be gathered at in the Kingdom. The Bible show us all of YHWH's Children, Ham, Shem, & Japheth. Black, Brown, & White. Who came from Africa, Asia, & Europe when Noah's sons seperated from each other after the Great Flood. These three families should be unifying now. Racism must end, & we must move in One Love & Harmony! Because we all came from One Abba, YHWH! Acts 17:26 shows us this, "And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation. " What does one blood mean to you? Doesn't that sound like racial unity? It sure does and it is a must! [/FONT]*

[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]*ANCIENT ISRAEL*[/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]*We must realise that Yisra'el, can be seen as Black people today, the Bible show us this. Lamentations 4 & 5, reveals an Edenic similarity. Yirmiyah 14, mentions how dark the Tribe of Yahuwdah is. In Songs of Solomon 1, King Shelomoh(Solomon) is described as being Black & comely. Job 30 also says the same thing. Even Simeon in Acts 13, is called Niger. Niger is an African country populated by Black People. Shaul or Paul was described as a Mitsrayim(Egyptian) in Acts 21. There is no doubt that Israel didn't originate from Edenic people. Obviously, Yisra'el came from Shem but some had Hamitic relationships, not just Shem only, they were dark. We can surely say that some of us are from these Israelites of non European ancestry. B*[/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]*eing an Israelite is also through the Hebrew Messianic Faith not just culturally alone. *[/FONT]


*also:*
*my next post>>>>>*


----------



## nomoweavesfome (Jan 29, 2007)

*II THE COMING OF BLACK MEN*

The movements of prehistoric man can be seen as yet but dimly in the uncertain mists of time. This is the story that to-day seems most probable: from some center in southern Asia primitive human beings began to differentiate in two directions. Toward the south appeared the primitive Negro, long-headed and with flattened hair follicle. He spread along southern Asia and passed over into Africa, where be survives to-day as the reddish dwarfs of the center and the Bushmen of South Africa.
Northward and eastward primitive man became broader headed and straight-haired and spread over eastern Asia, forming the Mongolian type. Either through the intermingling of these two types or, as some prefer to think, by the direct prolongation of the original primitive man, a third intermediate type of human being appeared with hair and cranial measurement intermediate between the primitive Negro and Mongolian. All these three types of men intermingled their blood freely and developed variations according to climate and environment.
Other and older theories and legends of the origin and spread of mankind are of interest now only because so many human beings have believed them in the past. The biblical story of Shem, Ham, and Japheth retains the interest of a primitive myth with its measure of allegorical truth, 1 but has, of course, no historic basis.

p. 12
The older "Aryan" theory assumed the migration into Europe of one dominant Asiatic race of civilized conquerors, to whose blood and influence all modern culture was due. To this "white" race Semitic Asia, a large part of black Africa, and all Europe was supposed to belong. This "Aryan" theory has been practically abandoned in the light of recent research, and it seems probable now that from the primitive Negroid stock evolved in Asia the Semites either by local variation or intermingling with other stocks; later there developed the Mediterranean race, with Negroid characteristics, and the modern Negroes. The blue-eyed, light-haired Germanic people may have arisen as a modern variation of the mixed peoples produced by the mingling of Asiatic and African elements. The last word on this development has not yet been said, and there is still much to learn and explain; but it is certainly proved to-day beyond doubt that the so-called Hamites of Africa, the brown and black curly and frizzly-haired inhabitants of North and East Africa, are not "white" men if we draw the line between white and black in any logical way.
The primitive Negroid race of men developed in Asia wandered eastward as well as westward. They entered on the one hand Burmah and the South Sea Islands, and on the other hand they came through Mesopotamia and gave curly hair and a Negroid type to Jew, Syrian, and Assyrian. Ancient statues of Indian divinities show the Negro type with black face and close-curled hair, and early Babylonian culture was Negroid. In Arabia the Negroes may have divided, and one stream perhaps wandered into Europe by way of Syria. Traces of these Negroes are manifest not only in skeletons, but in the brunette type of all South Europe. The other branch proceeded to Egypt and tropical Africa. Another, but perhaps less probable, theory is that ancient Negroes may have entered Africa from Europe, since the most ancient skulls of Algeria are Negroid.
The primitive African was not an extreme type. One may judge from modern pygmy and Bushmen that his color was reddish or yellow, and his skull was sometimes round like the Mongolian. He entered Africa not less than fifty thousand years ago and settled eventually in the broad region between Lake Chad and the Great Lakes and remained there long stretches of years.
After a lapse of perhaps thirty thousand years there entered Africa a further migration of Asiatic people, Negroid in many characteristics, but lighter and straighter haired than the primitive Negroes. From this Mediterranean race was developed the modern inhabitants
p. 13
of the shores of the Mediterranean in Europe, Asia, and Africa and, by mingling with the primitive Negroes, the ancient Egyptians and modern Negroid races of Africa.
As we near historic times the migrations of men became more frequent from Asia and from Europe, and in Africa came movements and minglings which give to the whole of Africa a distinct mulatto character. The primitive Negro stock was "mulatto" in the sense of being not widely differentiated from the dark, original Australoid stock. As the earlier yellow Negro developed in the African tropics to the bigger, blacker type, be was continually mingling his blood with similar types developed in temperate climes to sallower color and straighter hair.
We find therefore, in Africa to-day, every degree of development in Negroid stocks and every degree of intermingling of these developments, both among African peoples and between Africans, Europeans, and Asiatics. The mistake is continually made of considering these types as transitions between absolute Caucasians and absolute Negroes. No such absolute type ever existed on either side. Both were slowly differentiated from a common ancestry and continually remingled their blood while the differentiating was progressing. From prehistoric times down to to-day Africa is, in this sense, primarily the land of the mulatto. So, too, was earlier Europe and Asia; only in these countries the mulatto was early bleached by the climate, while in Africa he was darkened.
It is not easy to summarize the history of these dark African peoples, because so little is known and so much is still in dispute. Yet, by avoiding the real controversies and being unafraid of mere questions of definition, we may trace a great human movement with considerable definiteness.
Three main Negro types early made their appearance: the lighter and smaller primitive stock; the larger forest Negro in the center and on the west coast, and the tall, black Nilotic Negro in the eastern Sudan. In the earliest times we find the Negroes in the valley of the Nile, pressing downward from the interior, Here they mingled with Semitic types, and after a lapse of millenniums there arose from this mingling the culture of Ethiopia and Egypt, probably the first of higher human cultures.
To the west of the Nile the Negroes expanded straight across the continent to the Atlantic. Centers of higher culture appeared very early along the Gulf of Guinea and curling backward met Egyptian,
p. 14
[SIZE=-2][paragraph continues][/SIZE] Ethiopian, and even European and Asiatic influences about Lake Chad. To the southeast, nearer the primitive seats of the earliest African immigrants and open to Egyptian and East Indian influences, the Negro culture which culminated at Zymbabwe arose, and one may trace throughout South Africa its wide ramifications.
All these movements gradually aroused the central tribes to unrest. They beat against the barriers north, northeast, and west, but gradually settled into a great southeastward migration. Calling themselves proudly La Bantu (The People), they grew by agglomeration into a warlike nation, speaking one language. They eventually conquered all Africa south of the Gulf of Guinea and spread their influence to the northward.
While these great movements were slowly transforming Africa, she was also receiving influences from beyond her shores and sending influences out. With mulatto Egypt black Africa was always in closest touch, so much so that to some all evidence of Negro uplift seem Egyptian in origin. The truth is, rather, that Egypt was herself always palpably Negroid, and from her vantage ground as almost the only African gateway received and transmitted Negro ideals.
PhÅ“nician, Greek, and Roman came into touch more or less with black Africa. Carthage, that North African city of a million men, had a large caravan trade with Negroland in ivory, metals, cloth, precious stones, and slaves. Black men served in the Carthaginian armies and marched with Hannibal on Rome. In some of the North African kingdoms the infiltration of Negro blood was very large and kings like Massinissa and Jugurtha were Negroid. By way of the Atlantic the Carthaginians reached the African west coast. Greek and Roman influences came through the desert, and the Byzantine Empire and Persia came into communication with Negroland by way of the valley of the Nile. The influence of these trade routes, added to those of Egypt, Ethiopia, Benin, and Yoruba, stimulated centers of culture in the central and western Sudan, and European and African trade early reached large volume.
Negro soldiers were used largely in the armies that enabled the Mohammedans to conquer North Africa and Spain. 

There's more but I couldn't post it all


----------



## Bublnbrnsuga (Jan 29, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> Texture has not been the only thing that has been a problem for little girls.  Sometimes, it's the mere skin color.  Yes, there have been people of other races who have made black women feel uncomfortable about their hair texture, however, these same people mostly focused on the blackness.  The hair texture was just a by-product   When slavemasters and Klan lynched black women the last thing on their minds was the hair on their head; it was first and foremost the color of their skin.  When we were discriminated against it was because of the color of our skin, anything that came after that (such as negative comments toward hair, noses, etc.) just came with the territory.  However, you can dislike the texture and be removed from the race because even though many of us have the kinky texture, several others in our race do not have this and there are a few others in other races that have kinky hair.
> 
> If you argue for hair texture, you could also argue for other features that white people may have hated because they thought they symbolized blackness:  big lips and big noses for instance (which we were made fun of for having but we all know we are not the only ones who have this even if others tried to make it seem different).  If you dislike kinky hair because you are black, then that's an issue.  However, if you dislike kinky hair for a variety of other reasons totally removed from the race, then that's your choice.
> 
> Also, the point remains that white girls straighten the mess out of their hair or perm the mess out of it to be curly without the same type of backlash that a black person gets for say straightening her hair for whatever reason. I knew of several little white girls also at a very YOUNG age who got their hair permed growing up because it was what was popular.




First of all the topic that we are discussing is HAIR and if kinky hair is considered a curse. Not broad noses, lips, skin color,etc... we can save those features for other discussions.

Secondly, I could care LESS about what white folk are doing to their hair. Our history is not the same as there's so why even compare if they are receiving backlash for doing xyz? Why do we look at them as our measuring stick for nearly EVERYTHANG?

Let's be real, our hair is one of the CENTRAL FOCUS's OF OUR ESTEEM!  We can't do a daggone thing about our skin color, but we can continually straighten every kink as much as possible out of our hair to *TRY* to feel more beautiful and accepted in society and I say try because every month, you are reminded that your hair is not naturally straightened but naturally curly,kinky, nappy, wavy, whatever.


----------



## nomoweavesfome (Jan 29, 2007)

***please be advised there was no intention of hijacking this thread at all.  ***It is a very interesting thread and many times in my past I wondered the same thing.  But my eyes have been opened through scriptures many things in life.   Although it actually says in the bible according to Isaiah 3: 16-26 about  the Lord smiting a scab on the head and bringing about baldness instead of well set hair, as a curse to those women who were being conceited and haughty, that curse did not apply to everyone. 

 Also it also mentions in the scriptures about if a woman has long hair it is her glory  I Corinthians 11:15

All in all, I believe that God has blessed us all with beautiful hair.  I do not see in any way just because our hair is not straight like the other races that we are any less beautiful or our hair is any less pretty.  It's just different, and to think that God made a mistake is absurd. We are the ones (man) that bring about our own demise.  

Someone made a comment if a white woman was to stand in the mirror everyday to make her straight hair like an afro , she would surely be frustrated with damaged hair now wouldn't she??  lol

Anyaways- Great Topic!


----------



## CurleeDST (Jan 29, 2007)

FYI there are people from several other races who "grease" their scalp and oil just like many of us do.  Funny, when I lived in the dorms the ladies would make fun of me b/c I didn't put grease and oil in my hair.  They thought my hair would fall out when it was really fluffy, healthy and full of body while theirs were bogged down with grease, dandruff and stiffness.


----------



## navsegda (Jan 29, 2007)

Bublnbrnsuga said:
			
		

> First of all the topic that we are discussing is HAIR and if kinky hair is considered a curse. Not broad noses, lips, skin color,etc... we can save those features for other discussions.
> 
> Secondly, I could care LESS about what white folk are doing to their hair. Our history is not the same as there's so why even compare if they are receiving backlash for doing xyz? Why do we look at them as our measuring stick for nearly EVERYTHANG?
> 
> Let's be real, our hair is one of the CENTRAL FOCUS's OF OUR ESTEEM!  We can't do a daggone thing about our skin color, but we can continually straighten every kink as much as possible out of our hair to *TRY* to feel more beautiful and accepted in society and I say try because every month, you are reminded that your hair is not naturally straightened but naturally curly,kinky, nappy, wavy, whatever.


I know the topic we are discussing is hair.  However, I am trying to show that this is a double standard, which is WHY I brought up lips, noses, and other things.  Kinky hair is NOT the only distinguishing thing about black people and in several cases it may not even be the MOST distinguishing thing about us considering how many do not have the kinky, coiled hair but are still very much black.  We truly are NOT our hair.  If you're going to harp on kinky hair as being an issue of self esteem then harp on other things that may be an issue of self esteem just as equally for black girls.

We don't have to look at whites as a measuring stick so to speak.  I was making it a point because whites ARE linked to how some people in our race may or may not feel about our hair.  If race is the issue for some black people not accepting their kinky hair, then why is that?  Who were the FIRST people that scrutinized kinky hair?  Was it us?  NO it was not.  It was the white people who mainly set up beauty standards which is why they are so integral to this discussion.  If there are black people out there who hate their kinky hair or hate others' kinky hair and it all ties back to societal norms and beauty standards then it is the WHITE people who first put those norms and standards in place and thus the WHITE people would be the underlying cause of black people having any type of self esteem issues with their hair if this (beauty standards and not other reasons for disliking kinky hair) is what you are arguing.  However, even though this may be so, you can still divorce not liking the kinky hair from race.  The person beside you may not but YOU can.  

Also, you cannot assume that we all straighten or relax our kinky hair for the same reason.  For some people they may in fact be trying to be more beautiful or accepted in society but for others this very well may NOT be the case.  I know for a fact that I do it for me and me alone, and I *COULDN'T *care less if the standards were switched overnight and everyone thought straight hair was ugly tomorrow.


----------



## CaramelMiSS (Jan 29, 2007)

nomoweavesfome said:
			
		

> ***please be advised there was no intention of hijacking this thread at all. ***It is a very interesting thread and many times in my past I wondered the same thing. But my eyes have been opened through scriptures many things in life. Although it actually says in the bible according to Isaiah 3: 16-26 about the Lord smiting a scab on the head and bringing about baldness instead of well set hair, as a curse to those women who were being conceited and haughty, that curse did not apply to everyone.
> 
> Also it also mentions in the scriptures about if a woman has long hair it is her glory I Corinthians 11:15
> 
> ...


 
Just to add to nomoweavesfome read deut. chapter 28.  It talks about the Israelites and if they do not listen to God that he will have them have iron yokes around their necks and have them taken away by people from the edge of the world and that they would not se their sons or daughters.  Anyway just read that chapter it will have you think different about black people and why we are in the mess we are in today.


----------



## CaramelMiSS (Jan 29, 2007)

Mahalialee4 said:
			
		

> CaramelMiss: What are your thoughts now that they (the "Science" people...no...not the "fruit scientists! "lolol....are proving that blacks get skin cancer and are more readily damaged than whites and are encouraging blacks to lather up with the sunscreen?
> In the hottest countries, have you noticed that often they wear a lot of clothing....men and women, and keep their heads covered to stay cool? Even in the desert. The Arabs do not have a problem with long hair in the hottest driest areas, why would we? We could braid it up and tie it up just like the Rastas do or the Arabs. You think? Where would the moisture come from? body heat. Just like the bros in the States with their wool head coverings in the hot weather and them bros can grow some hair!!! JMO.
> Meant to add: Africa was a rainforest!!!! It was not one big desert wasteland...With some of the most lush vegetation possible! The wastelands that we see now are partially due to land erosion by mining, and raping of the land by European pillagers that has created drought and famine. As far as the water theory, I will get back to you. Thanks for commenting, it really keeps me on my toes! bless ya! bonjour


 
Dark skin protects against those skin cancers that are caused by mutations in skin cells induced by ultraviolet light. Light-skinned persons have about a tenfold greater risk of dying from skin cancer under equal sun conditions. Furthermore, dark skin prevents UV-A radiation from destroying the essential B vitamin folate. Folate is needed for the synthesis of DNA in dividing cells and too low levels of folate in pregnant women are associated with birth defects.

This is from wikipedia while I know that wikipedia is not that much of a creditable source I know that blacks have melanin for a reason.


----------



## patient1 (Jan 29, 2007)

What will you tell your daughters? Your granddaughters?

How will you describe their hair to them? What words will you use?

What expression will you wear on your face on the subject of their tresses?

Whose vision will you pass on? Through whose eyes will you see what comes out of your womb? Your daughter's womb?

So, what will you tell your daughters....

p1


----------



## growthbyforce (Jan 29, 2007)

I do not believe that black women relax their hair because they want to be white.....well at least i sure as hell dont. I relax my hair because it is more manageable that way.


----------



## Country gal (Jan 29, 2007)

patient1 said:
			
		

> What will you tell your daughters? Your granddaughters?
> 
> How will you describe their hair to them? What words will you use?
> 
> ...




Great questions. My little cousin cut her sister's hair because she had beady bees. It is obvious her mother expressed beady bees as being negative.


----------



## patient1 (Jan 29, 2007)

CaramelMiSS said:
			
		

> Just to add to nomoweavesfome read deut. chapter 28.  It talks about the Israelites and if they do not listen to God that he will have them have iron yokes around their necks and have them taken away by people from the edge of the world and that they would not se their sons or daughters.  Anyway just read that chapter it will have you think different about black people and why we are in the mess we are in today.



I'm sure you weren't implying this, but I will add anyway that "slavery" is not peculiar to "black people". What took place in America is it's most well-known incarnation. It had a looooooong history before Africans were enslaved on North American shores.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery

There are better sources than this, but any cursory research will shed light....

p1


----------



## Blu217 (Jan 29, 2007)

I personally have wondered the same thing as the OP. Healthy hair is all good--but I'm fighting a battle to save my hair right now because I've started losing hair at the crown due to alopecia--it was suggested relaxers caused it. And now my regular hair practices, once "fun," are no longer so practical. And it is no fun for me to think about losing my length to transition to natural, which I don't care to be, to try to figure out whether or not to continue to use chemicals in some capacity. I dread dealing with my hair now and wish I didn't have to relax or use heat to enjoy my favorite styles. 

My own black hair IS difficult for me to deal with in its natural state. I do envy my friend's (also black) gorgeous, shiny natural curls, because if mine grew like that I could go natural so easily. I think natural hair is absolutely beautiful--on other people who clearly love their native texture and know exactly how to rock it with style. That just ain't me. And I say there's nothing wrong with just wanting to be able to run a comb thru your hair without needing an ORS relaxer or S-Curl and 30 minutes of super-careful detangling to do so. 

I suppose within a few eons the constant evolution of man would gradually naturally relax the curl pattern of Black American hair, since we don't need it on this continent--provided everyone's not all intermingled by then anyway.


----------



## Nightingale (Jan 29, 2007)

My hair journey has been about simplification. At first I did the grease, and daily flat ironing. Now I have found a simpler regimen, I might have some hard to find products (butters), but everything else is cheap. I own a satin pillowcase, but I don't always use it. My hair has grown stronger, thicker, and will gain length soon, with the simple things, the things I like to do. I like rinsing my hair often, I like not having to make sure my hair is bone straight or bumped under before heading out of the door, I like my curly bun and puff. My hair is easier for me to care for, less maintenance, and thriving.


----------



## patient1 (Jan 29, 2007)

Country gal said:
			
		

> Great questions. My little cousin cut her sister's hair because she had beady bees. It is obvious her mother expressed beady bees as being negative.



And thus, the seed is REplanted...

I'll tell you this, my daughters have three different textures of hair and they accept and/or love their hair. I do what I can to foster this.

However, if they come home one day in their adulthood with straight hair, I will not deny them an embrace. 

They are my daughters and I will KNOW for fact that it is about change. It would be as if my daughters came home with hair that is blue, shaved on one side, her initials scrawled in, etc.

No matter what we decide to do with our hair, I really, truly believe we have a duty not to pass on these negative ideas about anything that is natural to our children. What on earth is to be gained?

I am so abundantly blessed that I had a mother who did NOT do this to us. These mothers are out there. Mothers who tell us that we are born whole and beautiful. Can they protect us from folks who say we are in need of fixin'? Ugly? Flawed?

No. Mothers can not be with us every moment of the day. But they plant seeds and life is a whole lot easier when you know there's at least one person out there who believes that you are just fine...that the Creator made no mistakes when fashioning you...that those others don't know any better...and that you're just plain old worthy.

I don't have too much to add and haven't read the whole thing. I've been natural a long time and my babies were born into my being firmly grounded in this.

Some of the comments here just make me shake my head because I have to send my daughters out into this world and I can't even count on my own sistren to water the seeds I plant. 

p1


----------



## Mahalialee4 (Jan 29, 2007)

I agree that this information was hitherto published: But now they are changing their tune. Before it was assumed that blacks were safer from skin cancer than white people. Now they are saying that is no longer considered to be the case, more melanin or not. I was watching a news program about three weeks ago on this, and they were urging black people to slather on the sun tan lotion and wear sun protective clothinng.  Apparently they have been seeing a significan rise in the incidents of the same types of skin cancers occurring in black people. I also agree with you that the melanin is there for a reason. Sounds like we are all breaking down, eh? bonjour



			
				CaramelMiSS said:
			
		

> Dark skin protects against those skin cancers that are caused by mutations in skin cells induced by ultraviolet light. Light-skinned persons have about a tenfold greater risk of dying from skin cancer under equal sun conditions. Furthermore, dark skin prevents UV-A radiation from destroying the essential B vitamin folate. Folate is needed for the synthesis of DNA in dividing cells and too low levels of folate in pregnant women are associated with birth defects.
> 
> This is from wikipedia while I know that wikipedia is not that much of a creditable source I know that blacks have melanin for a reason.


----------



## CaramelMiSS (Jan 29, 2007)

patient1 said:
			
		

> I'm sure you weren't implying this, but I will add anyway that "slavery" is not peculiar to "black people". What took place in America is it's most well-known incarnation. It had a looooooong history before Africans were enslaved on North American shores.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery
> 
> ...


 
I am aware of this


----------



## patient1 (Jan 29, 2007)

CaramelMiSS said:
			
		

> I am aware of this



Thus my intro into what I posted, frankly, for everyone...not just you. There are other people here on this board...young ones etc. So often when one says "slave" a Black face will be brought to mind. And I know for fact that youth get tired of that being propped up as the bulk of their history and culture.

I'd hate for someone to associate the punishment exclusively with Blacks and our "mess". This is especially important for some of the younger more impressionable ones. 

So, since you are aware but didn't make mention of it, I did. Nothing personal. 

p1


----------



## january noir (Jan 29, 2007)

I've been reading through this thread and it has been eye-opening and the opinions expressed have been thought provoking.

My response echoes others in that "our" hair was NOT meant to be  difficult.  It becomes difficult when "we" can't love what we are given and care for it with love.  When you try to "whip" your hair into submission without "love" it will always be difficult.  Hair, like anything in our lives, people, animals, etc. responds to love, not distaste and contempt.  Your hair might not reach to your knees, but it's staying on your head and for that we should at least be grateful!   

*I *would love to have "naturally" thick flowing locks, but that's not what God gave *me*.  He gave me thin, fine hair.  I had to learn to love my "own" and treat it with loving care.  I get just as many compliments about my hair when it is clean and shiny as those with lots of hair.  I had "coveted" other types of hair in my younger days, but now that I am in my forties I know that my hair makes me, *ME* and my hair is not difficult*.*


----------



## Blu217 (Jan 29, 2007)

patient1 said:
			
		

> Some of the comments here just make me shake my head because I have to send my daughters out into this world and I can't even count on my own sistren to water the seeds I plant.
> 
> p1


 
Hey P1 - 

I get where you're coming from and your post got me thinking. I think that for many of us, natural hair is not a virtue so much as a preference--like high heels vs flats. For some it's a religious or cultural statement, but it seems hair is fashion for a lot of us, really. I'm in the boat with those who feel relaxed hair is about manageability. 

It's all what we each get used to, I think--but to me at least both relaxers and natural hair are part and parcel of the black female hair and beauty experience; we've all considered which path is right for us and the average white person will never understand what these issues are about. Neither relaxed hair nor natural hair seems to me in any way more or less an embrace of blackness. So when I think back to my own childhood and what my hair influences were, the experience was still expressly a distinctly black female one. I never felt I was conforming to a white ideal.


----------



## Mahalialee4 (Jan 29, 2007)

RavenIvygurl said:
			
		

> ok I'm just gonna say this:
> 
> yes our hair is difficult (mostly b/c we can't/don't want to wear it as is, we try to mimic techniques of other groups of people who have a completely different hair type.  Whatver that's your choice and no one has to live with it but you so everyone has to do what they want.
> 
> ...



When the white scientists persuaded and by means of  WORDS AND RESULTANT MEASUREMENTS AND LAWS empowered and rationally  deceived, seduced and enabled nations (leaders and citizens) of white people who obviously had their own selfish ambition to enslave, murder and torture and psychologically perform genocide on black people and use not only the "skin color" but the hair "texture" of black people (the  pencil test) as a measuring rod to decide who could be sold down any river, I would not call this a blessing. It was a curse!!!...what is the meaning of curse?....to use the words of one's mouth to speak life or death into someone's life.....to call down evil and misfortune....every curse comes from the mouth in any language. In many ways "evil has been called down on OUR HEADS, our crowns, our God given birth right as a human!   And as a result of these "scientific findings" specific genetic breeding was carried out and certain "breeding" practices were FORBIDDEN BY WRITTEN LAW. (WORDS)  TODAY THIS PRACTICE IS CONSIDERED A VIOLATION OF HUMAN AND CIVIL RIGHTS AND CALLED A HATE CRIME PUNISHABLE BY LAW!

I agree that our hair in itself is not a natural curse, but so called science did play a large part in how our hair was viewed, and the fear other nationalities had of getting our kind of hair, and black people for many generations were deceived , saw our hair as a natural curse because of accepting the scientific lies AND PERPETUATED THIS CURSE UPON THEIR OWN HEADS   BY repeating these same lies to themselves and to their children!  We do need to stop this behaviour...the scriptures do tell us "you will have what you SAY!
 But as I have said repeatedly when we understand the wicked motives behind the scientists actions we can break free from the lies that ANY in the world would try to hold over our heads about our hair.
My basis for stating this is contained here although I realize not everyone respects or accepts what the Bible says  but for those who do,   this is where I was coming from regarding man made curses:

 Galations 5: 20, speaks as "witchcraft" as one of the work of the flesh, in other words, something carried out by man....that is another reason why I said the scientists because of "selfish ambition" and the nations because of "selfish ambition" executed a curse against black people. It was not the wisdom from above but was "earthly, unspiritual and of the Devil...and the reason for fomenting this "evil practice" (James 3:13-17)  How was it done, "BY THE POINTING OF THE FINGER AND THE UTTERANCE OF SPECIFIC MALEDICTIONS  to refer to a few..."nappyheaded dirty .......!" ugly dread savages with unkempt hair".. beasts, animals....not at all like humans....look at their hair!!!!!...not the hair of humans!"  and CERTAIN OF  the religious leaders of their people interjected with "the Curse of Cain....meant to be a slave nonsense!" but were curses levelled  ONLY AT the black man. hope this helps someone  bonjour


----------



## Jaizee (Jan 29, 2007)

Blu217 said:
			
		

> Hey P1 -
> 
> I get where you're coming from and your post got me thinking. I think that for many of us, natural hair is not a virtue so much as a preference--like high heels vs flats. For some it's a religious or cultural statement, but it seems hair is fashion for a lot of us, really. *I'm in the boat with those who feel relaxed hair is about manageability. *
> 
> It's all what we each get used to, I think--but to me at least both relaxers and natural hair are part and parcel of the black female hair and beauty experience; we've all considered which path is right for us and the average white person will never understand what these issues are about. Neither relaxed hair nor natural hair seems to me in any way more or less an embrace of blackness. So when I think back to my own childhood and what my hair influences were, the experience was still expressly a distinctly black female one. I never felt I was conforming to a white ideal.


 
I have to disagree with this to an extent. I've read countless times on this forum and other hair forums where someone is told that relaxers are messing up their scalp, but they continue to relax. I honestly don't know if it was you or someone else in this thread who said that they had scalp problems from relaxers, so this most likely doesn't apply to you. IMO, if someone continues to relax their hair after they've been told that it's dangerous for them to do so, is it really just a styling option?


----------



## honeycomb719 (Jan 29, 2007)

FlowerHair said:
			
		

> Imagine how difficult it would be for a white woman to achieve a perfect 4b afro every morning  She would have difficult hair for sure! And destroyed by chemicals and heat appliances!!!




Im LOVIN this analogy    Makes all the sense in the world.


----------



## Jaizee (Jan 29, 2007)

patient1 said:
			
		

> What will you tell your daughters? Your granddaughters?
> 
> How will you describe their hair to them? What words will you use?
> 
> ...


 
I REALLY love these questions. I know that when/if I have daughters, I'll make sure that they know that their natural hair is beautiful. I'll lead by example.


----------



## asha (Jan 29, 2007)

CaramelMiSS said:
			
		

> Just to add to nomoweavesfome read deut. chapter 28.  It talks about the Israelites and if they do not listen to God that he will have them have iron yokes around their necks and have them taken away by people from the edge of the world and that they would not se their sons or daughters.  Anyway just read that chapter it will have you think different about black people and why we are in the mess we are in today.




Wow, I read this chapter and it made me actually cry. I really hope you are not saying that the passage is directed at black people. If it is then I guess everything about us is cursed and we might as well sit back and wait to be destroyed because that is our fate anyways.

If those passages are true...(the one supposedly about black women posted earlier and the one above)  then how can any black person find solace in the words of scripture?


----------



## navsegda (Jan 29, 2007)

Jaizee said:
			
		

> IMO, if someone continues to relax their hair after they've been told that it's dangerous for them to do so, is it really just a styling option?


It could be.  Maybe even if they know that it's dangerous for their scalp, they cannot let go of the ease with which they are accustomed to handling their hair.  Maybe they will convince themselves "Oh, I can still relax but maybe this time I just won't get scalp burns and I know my hair won't fall out."  Thus, it may be more of a comfort zone; they'd rather risk scalp damage and be able to easily manage their hair than give up the relaxers and feel they cannot manage their natural hair as easily.  I mean, think about all the things people do that may not be safe for them but they continue to do because they don't want to let go of the ease and comfort that comes with them.  This may seem like a really gross example but I think back to when I was in high school and this girl pulled out her tampon and threw it against the bathroom wall (a white girl) and was like "God, this thing has been inside me for 11 hours."   I stood there with my mouth open, trying to understand what had just happened.  Now she kept that tampon in longer than the recommended hours just because it was easier for her not to have to worry about putting in the effort (although small in my opinion) to change it, but you know you run more of a risk of toxic shock syndrome by leaving it in longer.


----------



## patient1 (Jan 29, 2007)

Blu217 said:
			
		

> Hey P1 -
> 
> I get where you're coming from and your post got me thinking. I think that for many of us, natural hair is not a virtue so much as a preference--like high heels vs flats. For some it's a religious or cultural statement, but it seems hair is fashion for a lot of us, really. I'm in the boat with those who feel relaxed hair is about manageability.
> 
> It's all what we each get used to, I think--but to me at least both relaxers and natural hair are part and parcel of the black female hair and beauty experience; we've all considered which path is right for us and the average white person will never understand what these issues are about. Neither relaxed hair nor natural hair seems to me in any way more or less an embrace of blackness. So when I think back to my own childhood and what my hair influences were, the experience was still expressly a distinctly black female one. I never felt I was conforming to a white ideal.



That's actually not what I'm saying at all. I don't buy into a lot of the mass explanations of why we do whatever we do to our hair and what we do etc. I've learned not to make assumptions based on how someone stands before me. This encompasses race, gender, hair styles, etc. Trust me,there are lots of folks who wear natural hair and hate it, hate themselves, whatever you want to project onto them.

We're individuals. Our reasons behind our choices are as varied as we are. Furthermore, if you live a bit your hair goes through constant reincarnations. I've had relaxers, a shaved head, braids, fros, twists, even went through a locing phase.  If I were to relax my hair tomorrow, after almost 16 years of natural hair, am I suddenly transformed overnight. Is the converse true? Of course not. So assumptions about the deeper layers of self based on hair are just over and done for me. However...

When I come face to face with someone else's child, I don't project any of my hair issues and politics onto them. I see children as a new beginning. So if the mother is already straightening the child's hair I DON'T disparage that. And if the child's hair is in a natural style and they are stand alones, I'd be sure to affirm their beauty.

I don't care about all this science and history and what not behind how our hair got to be how it is and where it's gonna go and what texture it's going to be generations from now.

I like to deal with the here and now.

And the fact of the matter is, I'm going to have to send my children out into the world with folks, black folks, Black women who DON'T think their natural texture is good enough, a reflection of God's perfection and wisdom....and some who don't care enough about changing things to even pretend.

There's not a sister here who can say I've ever come down on another's hair choice. Not here, not in real-life, not on nappturality (where I'm moonchild). I don't do it.

But let's give our daughters coming up a chance for it to actually be a damn CHOICE. It doesn't matter how it got to be this way, it is what it is. Let's just deal with it. And whether your hair is relaxed or natural....4b or 1c whatever...I think we can all intuit and agree that we could take a load off of them if we'd start affirming the beauty of what they sprout naturally.

All I can do is what I do. Others have to do what's authentic to them. I can't change anyone and I'm gonna keep on being at least one face of acceptance.  I'm just praying that some of folks can learn to look a little closer, smile maybe, and see beauty in it all.

p1


----------



## LocksOfLuV (Jan 29, 2007)

Jaizee said:
			
		

> I have to disagree with this to an extent. I've read countless times on this forum and other hair forums where someone is told that relaxers are messing up their scalp, but they continue to relax. I honestly don't know if it was you or someone else in this thread who said that they had scalp problems from relaxers, so this most likely doesn't apply to you. IMO, if someone continues to relax their hair after they've been told that it's dangerous for them to do so, is it really just a styling option?


 
I told myself I was going to stay out of this thread,  but what they hey, what's one more round.

You can't simply imply ANY reason why ever last woman on the face of this planet relaxes. You can't. No matter what you think and whether you agree with it or not, everyone has their own reasoning behind it. That would be as silly as to saying that everyone who goes natural only did it because of damage- I don't know all naturals so I can't say that, plus I can think of one my Girlz off the top of my head who had gorgeous healthy relaxed hair who went natural.

To be quite honest with you, eating foods are now a danger because of the level of pesticides/preservatives, breathing air is because of air pollutants, walking because of the risk of getting hit/shot/raped/stabbed/etc, flying because of terrorist attacks, drive because of collisions, I could go on and on and on and on, but you get the point. 

Just in case you don't, My point is EVERY SINGLE THING YOU DO nowadays in life is a risk. Why live your life with caution in every single thing you do because of non-direct links to diseases?  Why should I subject myself to hours of endless detangling (if ya don't believe me you try coming over here and detangling my natural hair) for the risk of some disease (we don't have sufficient research about) when I can walk outside tomorrow and get hit by a bus? Life is too short for all the stressing and such, forreal.

It's not as deep as people want to believe for all people. It really ain't.
Some people seem to think by being natural it makes you one step closer to GOD and/or more 'Black' than another, it's really not that deep. HAIR is only one thing out of a millions things to worry about. As someone else said on this forum, life is too hard to be worrying and stressing over hair and what other people choose to do with their hair.


----------



## Bublnbrnsuga (Jan 29, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> I know the topic we are discussing is hair.  However, I am trying to show that this is a double standard, which is WHY I brought up lips, noses, and other things.  Kinky hair is NOT the only distinguishing thing about black people and in several cases it may not even be the MOST distinguishing thing about us considering how many do not have the kinky, coiled hair but are still very much black.  We truly are NOT our hair.  If you're going to harp on kinky hair as being an issue of self esteem then harp on other things that may be an issue of self esteem just as equally for black girls.
> 
> We don't have to look at whites as a measuring stick so to speak.  I was making it a point because whites ARE linked to how some people in our race may or may not feel about our hair.  If race is the issue for some black people not accepting their kinky hair, then why is that?  Who were the FIRST people that scrutinized kinky hair?  Was it us?  NO it was not.  It was the white people who mainly set up beauty standards which is why they are so integral to this discussion.  If there are black people out there who hate their kinky hair or hate others' kinky hair and it all ties back to societal norms and beauty standards then it is the WHITE people who first put those norms and standards in place and thus the WHITE people would be the underlying cause of black people having any type of self esteem issues with their hair if this (beauty standards and not other reasons for disliking kinky hair) is what you are arguing.  However, even though this may be so, you can still divorce not liking the kinky hair from race.  The person beside you may not but YOU can.
> 
> Also, you cannot assume that we all straighten or relax our kinky hair for the same reason.  For some people they may in fact be trying to be more beautiful or accepted in society but for others this very well may NOT be the case.  I know for a fact that I do it for me and me alone, and I *COULDN'T *care less if the standards were switched overnight and everyone thought straight hair was ugly tomorrow.



Since YT put in our heads in the beginning, that you're black and ugly with that old crazy hair, why are we, having advanced in this society still struggling with this issue? Why, because in several instances we as black people have BOUGHT INTO THOSE LIES and have decided that hey, something IS wrong with us. WE are the ones keeping this junk up. NO need for YT to do it anymore, since we are doing it to ourselves.

By you bringing up those other issues that we as black people face is more of a justification to CONTINUE to envy other hair textures, since, hey, some black folk don't like their color, noses, lips, hips, butt, so what's the big deal about disliking my texture,too? 

I didn't say that black women texturize/straighten their hair for the same reason, (I was one who relaxed because I wanted other styles that I couldn't obtain through my natural hair) ,but once again, let's keep it real- majority do out of dislike of their texture. Can't STAND to see a crinkle in their fresh do.


With this said, I see that I will keep repeating myself so I remove myself from this discussion.


----------



## Mahalialee4 (Jan 29, 2007)

Asha: Do not be destroyed. That was not the final word. It also talked about restoration if you keep reading. I am not saying that this refers to black people, I am just saying that even if it did, READ THE WHOLE STORY AND THEN YOU CAN BE ENCOURAGED bonjour


----------



## hotshot (Jan 29, 2007)

ebonylocs said:
			
		

> Many of the replies to this thread make me sick at heart. I can't believe what I'm reading.
> 
> Let me just make one thing absolutely clear: THERE IS NOTHING INNATELY GOOD ABOUT LONG HAIR. Hair, like every other part of the body, evolved for a function and evolved into its current form because of the function it served - in the environment it served it in. That is all.
> 
> ...



let the church say amen.


----------



## hotshot (Jan 29, 2007)

january noir said:
			
		

> *Hair, like anything in our lives, people, animals, etc. responds to love, not distaste and contempt.  Your hair might not reach to your knees, but it's staying on your head and for that we should at least be grateful!   *


amen again.


----------



## Jaizee (Jan 29, 2007)

LocksOfLuV said:
			
		

> I told myself I was going to stay out of this thread, but what they hey, what's one more round.
> 
> You can't simply imply ANY reason why ever last woman on the face of this planet relaxes. You can't. No matter what you think and whether you agree with it or not, everyone has their own reasoning behind it. That would be as silly as to saying that everyone who goes natural only did it because of damage- I don't know all naturals so I can't say that, plus I can think of one my Girlz off the top of my head who had gorgeous healthy relaxed hair who went natural.
> 
> ...


 
I think my post may have been misunderstood.  I was only talking about the people who are told that their scalps are scarred from relaxers, but they continue to do it anyway. My own mother has been told that she can lose her hair because of the relaxers, but she said she'd rather be bald than to have natural hair.  

Let me make one thing clear: I don't think having natural hair makes anyone "superior." I have cousins that use relaxers, and they have the most healthiest hair that I've ever seen. I don't think anyone is "blacker" because they have natural hair. I never said that, and I don't want those words put in my mouth. I was talking about _one specific senario._

At the risk of having my words misconstrued, I'm done.


----------



## Jaizee (Jan 29, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> It could be. Maybe even if they know that it's dangerous for their scalp, they cannot let go of the ease with which they are accustomed to handling their hair. Maybe they will convince themselves "Oh, I can still relax but maybe this time I just won't get scalp burns and I know my hair won't fall out." Thus, it may be more of a comfort zone; they'd rather risk scalp damage and be able to easily manage their hair than give up the relaxers and feel they cannot manage their natural hair as easily. I mean, think about all the things people do that may not be safe for them but they continue to do because they don't want to let go of the ease and comfort that comes with them. This may seem like a really gross example but I think back to when I was in high school and this girl pulled out her tampon and threw it against the bathroom wall (a white girl) and was like "God, this thing has been inside me for 11 hours." I stood there with my mouth open, trying to understand what had just happened. Now she kept that tampon in longer than the recommended hours just because it was easier for her not to have to worry about putting in the effort (although small in my opinion) to change it, but you know you run more of a risk of toxic shock syndrome by leaving it in longer.


 
Oh, sorry, didn't see your reply the first time! You've raised some very valid points. I didn't think of it that way. Thank you for your post.


----------



## navsegda (Jan 29, 2007)

Bublnbrnsuga said:
			
		

> Since YT put in our heads in the beginning, that you're black and ugly with that old crazy hair, why are we, having advanced in this society still struggling with this issue? Why, because in several instances we as black people have BOUGHT INTO THOSE LIES and have decided that hey, something IS wrong with us. WE are the ones keeping this junk up. NO need for YT to do it anymore, since we are doing it to ourselves.
> 
> By you bringing up those other issues that we as black people face is more of a justification to CONTINUE to envy other hair textures, since, hey, some black folk don't like their color, noses, lips, hips, butt, so what's the big deal about disliking my texture,too?
> 
> I didn't say that black women texturize/straighten their hair for the same reason, (I was one who relaxed because I wanted other styles that I couldn't obtain through my natural hair) ,but once again, let's keep it real- majority do out of dislike of their texture. Can't STAND to see a crinkle in their fresh do.


What I was saying is that I believe some of us can be divorced from this.  Just because whites may have frowned upon our hair does not mean that the reason one or more of us dislike our texture now is because of white people's influences.  This MAY be true for some but it does not have to be true for everyone.  You cannot tell someone that if they feel this way then it MUST be because of this, that, or the other.

On your second part, exactly.  What is the big deal?  You should not have a problem with how someone else feels, totally unrelated to you, about their hair, lips, face, nose, etc. as long as they are not infringing upon your rights or trying to force their opinions on you.  If someone tells you, "Hey, I envy X's texture of hair and you should too," then it's a different story.  If someone, whether black or white, tells you what you SHOULD believe about hair and they are forcing their beauty standards upon you then you are doing the exact same thing (forcing your beauty standards on someone else) if you are to tell someone how they should feel about their natural hair or show disdain with them relaxing at the first sight of new growth, for instance.  People who dislike their hair texture dislike it for several different reasons and one of those does NOT have to be because they are believing white hype.  On the contrary, it very well could be.  But if by justification you mean that I am saying "Go ahead.  You SHOULD hate your kinky hair because we can hate so much else about ourselves, too" that is not what I am saying.  There is a difference between advocacy/trying to push a certain agenda and TOLERANCE.  I am being tolerant because no one in here is trying to harm themselves or others based on disdain of hair texture.  If someone came in and said "OMG I HATE MY HAIR TEXTURE; I WANT TO KILL MYSELF BECAUSE I'M SO UNHAPPY," then I wouldn't say "Oh, that's fine.  I'm just going to sit back and be tolerant."

We also need to accept each other REGARDLESS of their opinions on hair.  In my book, if you are natural, good for you.  If you are relaxed, good for you.  I'm not going to sit back and try to make someone else feel bad about what they believe based on MY own opinions.  Even if someone were to come in here right now and say "I buy into the lies of white society and I only relax because I wanna conform to white beauty standards" then that still doesn't give me, you, or anyone else a right to judge or berate them.


----------



## Bunny77 (Jan 29, 2007)

Bublnbrnsuga said:
			
		

> I didn't say that black women texturize/straighten their hair for the same reason, (I was one who relaxed because I wanted other styles that I couldn't obtain through my natural hair) ,but once again, let's keep it real- majority do out of dislike of their texture. Can't STAND to see a crinkle in their fresh do.
> 
> 
> *With this said, I see that I will keep repeating myself so I remove myself from this discussion.*



I feel ya...

Again, I think most people on this thread (if one takes time to read through it all) have said that one cannot assume that all relaxed women think like XYZ and all natural women think like ABC and that's why they do their hair the way they do. We know it's not that simple.

However, if you are a black woman who grew up around black people, you are putting blinders on if you say that there is no issue for MOST black women when it comes to hair texture. I know that there are some black women who simply prefer relaxed hair and that's that. But even if you are one of those people, you can't act like that's how most black women think because they simply don't. We wouldn't be having this conversation, this thread, this board, countless books, papers, etc., if there wasn't this internal hatred of a nappier hair texture. 

I asked a question earlier and one person answered from her own perspective (thanks, btw), but I'd like to hear more... doesn't anyone think there's something amiss with the fact that the majority of black women prefer a hair type that they don't have and have never had?


----------



## navsegda (Jan 29, 2007)

Oh, and Bunny thanks for the compliments on my hair.  Sorry I missed it in all the chaos lol.


----------



## envybeauty (Jan 29, 2007)

Country gal said:
			
		

> Great questions. My little cousin cut her sister's hair because she had beady bees. It is obvious her mother expressed beady bees as being negative.


 
One trip to Africa (pick a country in the South or West) will disabuse anyone of the notion that a little black girl with short hair is due to negativity. Little girls all over the continent have short hair cuts (literally mere millimeters of hair on their heads). It is such a norm. Self-hatred? I think not. Convenient for their mothers? Yup. 

Not saying this is about your cousin but someone would read that and think that is the case for all black girls anytime they saw one with short hair.


----------



## Enchantmt (Jan 29, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> On your second part, exactly.  What is the big deal?  You should not have a problem with how someone else feels, totally unrelated to you, about their hair, lips, face, nose, etc. as long as they are not infringing upon your rights or trying to force their opinions on you.
> 
> We also need to accept each other REGARDLESS of their opinions on hair.  In my book, if you are natural, good for you.  If you are relaxed, good for you.  I'm not going to sit back and try to make someone else feel bad about what they believe based on MY own opinions.  Even if someone were to come in here right now and say "I buy into the lies of white society and I only relax because I wanna conform to white beauty standards" then that still doesn't give me, you, or anyone else a right to judge or berate them.



I have to disagree with this to a certain point. While I agree we need to respect each others decisions, I would hope that if there was a sister who was hurting because of self hatred/low self esteem relating to her hair, skin or any other feature, and someone had interaction with her enough to speak into her life so she can see her true beauty, that one would speak.   I'm not saying force your idealogy down peoples throats, even a compliment can do wonders. Some folx dont realize there is another acceptable way of doing things until it is shown to them. Some folx feel they need permission to take action in their lives or go against what is the social norm. I have been in this rut myself at different times in my life. A word of encouragement would have worked wonders for me then.

We can learn from each other, even if we dont go on to make the same types of choices. A lot of women on this forum would never have transitioned, if they had not seen it could be done by others showing the way. A lot of relaxed ladies wouldnt have seen the beauty in and realized the potential of their hair to grow to great lengths had it not been for someone showing them the way, and giving them wisdom for taking care of their hair. We have folx now who are struggling to love their hair, relaxed and natural. Those who have been though this type of period and gone on to embrace their hair, whether relaxed or natural, can help the ones struggling to get to that place too.


----------



## navsegda (Jan 29, 2007)

Enchantmt said:
			
		

> I have to disagree with this to a certain point. While I agree we need to respect each others decisions, I would hope that if there was a sister who was hurting because of self hatred/low self esteem relating to her hair, skin or any other feature, and someone had interaction with her enough to speak into her life so she can see her true beauty, that one would speak.   I'm not saying force your idealogy down peoples throats, even a compliment can do wonders. Some folx dont realize there is another acceptable way of doing things until it is shown to them. Some folx feel they need permission to take action in their lives or go against what is the social norm. I have been in this rut myself at different times in my life. A word of encouragement would have worked wonders for me then.
> 
> We can learn from each other, even if we dont go on to make the same types of choices. A lot of women on this forum would never have transitioned, if they had not seen it could be done by others showing the way. A lot of relaxed ladies wouldnt have seen the beauty in and realized the potential of their hair to grow to great lengths had it not been for someone showing them the way, and giving them wisdom for taking care of their hair. We have folx now who are struggling to love their hair, relaxed and natural. Those who have been though this type of period and gone on to embrace their hair, whether relaxed or natural, can help the ones struggling to get to that place too.


There is also a difference in how we may come across.  If someone is hurting because of self-hatred or any other matter, if we go off on her about how she needs to do this or that, then it's only going to make matters worse.  We could be contributing to her self-hatred even more.  But you are right.  If you say something encouraging, that doesn't mean that you are trying to force your opinion on her if she said "I hate my natural texture" and you said "It's beautiful" but it would definitely be a problem if you said "Your natural texture is beautiful, how dare you say such a thing, stop conforming to white beauty standards.  You should be happy with the freaking hair God gave you."  That makes it a whole 'nother ballgame.  I don't have a problem with naturals or relaxed heads telling someone of the other persuasion that their own hair is beautiful and that's why they choose to personally be one or the other.  It's the sanctimonious attitude that some of us have where we cannot just stop at offering our opinion but we have to be degrading and insulting while we're at it just because someone shares a differing opinion.  This is when tolerance needs to kick in.


----------



## zailless (Jan 29, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> What I was saying is that I believe some of us can be divorced from this. Just because whites may have frowned upon our hair does not mean that the reason one or more of us dislike our texture now is because of white people's influences. This MAY be true for some but it does not have to be true for everyone. You cannot tell someone that if they feel this way then it MUST be because of this, that, or the other.
> 
> On your second part, exactly. What is the big deal? You should not have a problem with how someone else feels, totally unrelated to you, about their hair, lips, face, nose, etc. as long as they are not infringing upon your rights or trying to force their opinions on you. If someone tells you, "Hey, I envy X's texture of hair and you should too," then it's a different story. If someone, whether black or white, tells you what you SHOULD believe about hair and they are forcing their beauty standards upon you then you are doing the exact same thing (forcing your beauty standards on someone else) if you are to tell someone how they should feel about their natural hair or show disdain with them relaxing at the first sight of new growth, for instance. People who dislike their hair texture dislike it for several different reasons and one of those does NOT have to be because they are believing white hype. On the contrary, it very well could be. But if by justification you mean that I am saying "Go ahead. You SHOULD hate your kinky hair because we can hate so much else about ourselves, too" that is not what I am saying. There is a difference between advocacy/trying to push a certain agenda and TOLERANCE. I am being tolerant because no one in here is trying to harm themselves or others based on disdain of hair texture. If someone came in and said "OMG I HATE MY HAIR TEXTURE; I WANT TO KILL MYSELF BECAUSE I'M SO UNHAPPY," then I wouldn't say "Oh, that's fine. I'm just going to sit back and be tolerant."
> 
> We also need to accept each other REGARDLESS of their opinions on hair. In my book, if you are natural, good for you. If you are relaxed, good for you. I'm not going to sit back and try to make someone else feel bad about what they believe based on MY own opinions. Even if someone were to come in here right now and say "I buy into the lies of white society and I only relax because I wanna conform to white beauty standards" then that still doesn't give me, you, or anyone else a right to judge or berate them.


 
I agree with you totally.  people are are so military about race and hair.  as if it has to mean some kind of a race issue to hate your hair.
no matter what was written by that poster you were responding to,  98% of women with our hair texture probably wake up every 2 weeks wondering what to do with their hair.  its not as easy to just get up and style it even if you are bored sometimes you dont have to option to get up and just go to work because you know it will fall into place.  it wont.  and its not a big deal, we just go on from one style to the next but its still difficult.


----------



## seraphim712 (Jan 29, 2007)

Wow, 

I've been sitting on the sidelines watching you guys go back and forth. It's a very interesting and deep topic. Kinda drawn out but interesting indeed. 

However, I thought the main purpose of this forum was to learn how to maintain healthy hair in order for it to acheive long lengths, thus the name of the forum: Long Hair Care.   

It seems like some women are getting upset on this post at other women  by telling them that they should appreciate the hair they have and others are getting upset about the topic of relaxed hair vs. natural hair etc... 

My point is, I think every woman on this board no matter how much they complain about their hair whether long or short, natural or relaxed, etc. are still grateful for the hair they have/ some just want to learn how to longer hair(I personally like longer hair)/ others just want to learn how to maintain healthy hair/ while others are trying to recover from hair loss. Everyone is here for a different purpose, and instead of being critical towards their questions and concerns about hair growth, it should be embraced with a helping hand. 

I'm not good at expressing my opinions well, so I hope this makes sense.


----------



## Mahalialee4 (Jan 29, 2007)

seraphim712 said:
			
		

> Wow,
> 
> I've been sitting on the sidelines watching you guys go back and forth. It's a very interesting and deep topic. Kinda drawn out but interesting indeed.
> 
> ...



Of course you make sense. I agree it is a Long Haired Forum but it seems that some heartfelt topics come up and we try not to brush each other off. If you were to post on something and felt stumped and just kind of...."why why is this happening to me and it make me feel so discouraged......." etc. you would be amazed at how many thoughtful ladies would go out of their way to help you arrive at an answer that would enable you to move on to the target goal of gaining long hair. There can be so many issues along the way for some of us. Sometimes I just hit the "search button" when I feel the need to just focus ONLY ON  the "actually gaining long hair with care, techniques, regimes etc."  Maybe that is how you are feeling right now and maybe the same thing would make it easier for you not have to plow through what may be irrelevant for you right now. I do a lot of research on many things aside from the Board, SO getting in deeper comes natural to me I guess.

By the way, if you have anything I can learn from about reaching our mutual goal of getting long hair faster....pm me or post it. I am a glutton for info. bonjour


----------



## Isis (Jan 29, 2007)

nappywomyn said:
			
		

> And as long as black woman are asking why God CURSED them with the natural texture of that hair - things are NEVER going to change. Until WE send out the message that WE are proud of OUR hair - just as it grows out of our head, OF COURSE people are going to assume there is something wrong with it. Heck, *WE* believe there is something 'wrong' with our hair.
> 
> All of the above examples sound like out and out ignorance - a chance to educate the OTHER about the truth of our hair - that only WE can speak on, because only WE know our hair. Over on NP, they started a petition with the BPD tried to say that natural hairstyles weren't allowed - and the BALTIMORE POLICE DEPARTMENT backed down because a bunch of loud, proud, black people stood up and said - NO. There is NOTHING wrong with our hair the way it comes out of our head, and YOU will not try to implement rules that make it seem like there is.
> 
> ...


ITA.  Unless we change our beliefs about hair, starting with ourselves individually, those attitudes will remain in the world around us.  This applies to everything, including how we feel as black females and females period.  It all starts with us.  What happens out in the world is a mirror of what we as individuals and as people collectively are believing.
*reads more to catch up on this thread*


----------



## Bunny77 (Jan 29, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> On your second part, exactly.  What is the big deal?  You should not have a problem with how someone else feels, totally unrelated to you, about their hair, lips, face, nose, etc. as long as they are not infringing upon your rights or trying to force their opinions on you.



The reason it's a big deal for me is because I have met too many young (and old) black women who have suffered from low self-esteem and all of its accompanying side effects (like depression) because of aesthetic issues like hair and skin color. Now, I'm a person who believes that what really matters is what's inside... how good of a person you are, how intelligent you are, what you've done for the world, whatever, but even the most enlightened of women want to feel beautiful. They want at least one man in their lives to tell them they are beautiful... an absence of that "beautiful" feeling appears to do a mental number on women that goes far beyond just being dissatisfied or frustrated with one aspect of one's appearance. 

Reading Kally's posts through this thread (and sorry to call her out again, but she is the OP, so I'll refer to her), she mentioned that she had low self-esteem and this hair issue is one that has caused her great mental pain. She was woman enough to be honest and put it out there like that, but I'm sure she's far from the only one to feel that way... and I know that low self-esteem affects all women, but it's particularly insiduous for black women because many of our features are totally opposite of the white beauty ideal.

And low self-esteem causes people to make poor choices... maybe choosing to be with the wrong man because a woman doesn't think anyone else will want her because she's "ugly." It makes little girls feel that they're less than if their mothers are criticizing their hair from a place of frustration... low self-esteem can lead to depression, etc.... now I'm not saying that there's a direct leap from disliking nappy hair to staying with a man who beats you... I'm saying though that a lack of pride in one's heritage (which includes the physical manifestations of it) can lead to low self-esteem and you can't tell me that society's racism and focus on black inferiority hasn't done a number on the health of our community.

This is not about saying one has to be natural to love one's hair or anything like that, but I think to say "what's the big deal" regarding the black community's indoctrination that 1A hair is best is only keeping many of us in a place of pain, shame, hurt, etc.... We need to REALLY look past the fact that some individuals are enlightened about this topic and truly address what most of the community feels about hair (and our skin tone too, I'd say) to get to a point where maybe we can make more positive change in our community. 

I truly believe that it's hard for us to progress as a people if we don't at least accept who we are in our own community. And we aren't doing that, regardless of how we're wearing our hair.


----------



## envybeauty (Jan 29, 2007)

ShaniKeys said:
			
		

> I've been hearing a lot of these stories about people not being able to show up with a certain type of hair at their workplace and I must say that is a problem that doesn't accur in Belgium (Europe?). I wear my hair natural and I work part time as a cashier and as a receptionist in an office. I was thinking: maybe it's because white Americans know much more about black hair, they know that you can RELAX it instead of wearing braids and stuff, whilest here, people don't know that much about black hair, so whatever type of hair you show up with, they don't care. All they know is: black ppl got nappy hair! What y'all think 'bout this theory?


 
I disagree with your theory and the basis for it. I lived in Belgium (Leuven)  and traveled all throughout the French and Dutch speaking cities. There are black salons in Brussels and Leuven, etc. where women get relaxers, braids, etc. They are not plentiful but they are there.   Black women in Brussels and elsewhere walk all over with relaxers, etc. in their hair...dry hair with that hard water and all....but straight.  So do the black ERASMUS students who come from the UK, France, and other countries.  Black women in Europe wore their hair in as many different styles/looks as American women (braids, relaxed, nappy). It is not as if Black women in Belgium (and many of them are not born and raised there unlike most American Blacks) all are seen with just fros.

That said, white people in Belgium do not know less about what Black people do to their hair than YT here.  They know the same amount -- which is nothing. (Just ask anybody on here how many times some American YT asked JUST HOW MANY braids were in their hair as if Black women are to count and know the hundreds put in when getting box braids).

Just because some Blacks there walk around with fros, relaxed hair, braids, etc. does not mean that Blacks there do not get questioned or looked at differently because our hair was different from the rest. 

Likewise, certain positions here (as there) do not demand that Black women wear only straight styles.  I have not heard a story about someone here being fired in the positions you mentioned (cashier/receptionist) just because they wear a fro.  Many cashiers/receptions here wear fros, braids, etc.  If the boss over those positions has a problem with fros, then they would not have hired the woman with the fro to begin with (whether in the US or Belgium).   There are not many (if only really a handful) of Black women in leadership positions in Belgium.  How many of them have fros?  

OT: Belgium has racial issues that go above and beyond hair. I was there for Christmas and the whole Zwarte Pete (Black Peter) thing pissed me off! Zwarte Pete is some little Black helper that works for Santa Claus. Apparently, the role/story of Zwarte Pete never made it across the shores when YT brought the legend of Santa Clause over from Europe.  Belgiums walk around in Black face during Christmas to look like Zwarte Pete...they find nothing wrong with it and they encourage one another ..even little kids...to walk around in black face to "look" like pete. It is downright insulting.


----------



## Bunny77 (Jan 29, 2007)

Isis said:
			
		

> What happens out in the world is a mirror of what we as individuals and as people collectively are believing.



And that's why I think it is a big deal. We need to have honest discussions about this because what we're doing now hasn't helped one bit.


----------



## Blu217 (Jan 30, 2007)

Jaizee said:
			
		

> I have to disagree with this to an extent. I've read countless times on this forum and other hair forums where someone is told that relaxers are messing up their scalp, but they continue to relax. I honestly don't know if it was you or someone else in this thread who said that they had scalp problems from relaxers, so this most likely doesn't apply to you. IMO, if someone continues to relax their hair after they've been told that it's dangerous for them to do so, is it really just a styling option?


 
Hi Jaizee - 

I have posted about my diagnosis of scarring alopecia, suspected to be from relaxing. 

It's extremely difficult to be in a situation where you're forced to choose a hair texture you don't want to wear or work with. I've been relaxed since childhood, and relaxing has always been about getting a comb thru my hair, just a styling option. I really don't know what to do with natural hair; transition long and risk breakage and shedding. Cut it off and... a twa and me would not mix on any level, particularly at my office and on the stages where I play music. I hate heat. I hate relaxers. I hate detangling my natural hair because of its fragility. I just want to comb my hair, get it looking reasonably tidy and go on about my day. I like it very much the way it is and I've got this down to a science.

Contrast this with the horror of basically going bald. Alopecia is a 8itch, and the choices and decisions those of us facing this have to make I wouldn't wish on anyone. I've done a lot of research about what is best for me to do. At present I do relax, but now about once every 3 months vs the old 6 week routine prior to my diagnosis. How to fit natural hair into my relaxed world... I don't have that worked out yet, but the stretching is part of the learning process for me, and it's also better, at least, for my scalp in the meantime. And seeing the numbers of natural women on the board who after years being that way elect to relax again doesn't encourage me much. The idea of natural always sounds great--until I've got an inch of new growth on my head I'm trying to manage and smooth out. I get exasperated with the pros and cons and dos and don'ts and often think of just shaving it off altogether and REALLY giving things a rest for a while.

There are, for me, no easy answers along this journey.


----------



## Jaizee (Jan 30, 2007)

Blu217 said:
			
		

> Hi Jaizee -
> 
> I have posted about my diagnosis of scarring alopecia, suspected to be from relaxing.
> 
> ...


 
I know I said I was done with this thread, but I wanted to respond to this post. Thank you for posting this. I really mean it. My mom had something similar happen to her with relaxers. Thank you again for this post, I really appreciate it. I hope that everything works out for you!


----------



## kally (Jan 30, 2007)

I would like to say thank you so much to all  who support me and understand where I am coming from.

For those who do not. I still thank you for your responses. It is all still helpful info to me. I really do not see it as casting stones at me, but only trying to help me see how you view it. 

I did not mean for it to come across as a curse from God but more as to say I do not think God's plan for us orginally was for our hair  to be this fragile. 

I have learned so much from all of the different responses on here, from climate, culture, scriptures, documents, etc... I has opened my mind to really be able to heal. Thanks you all. I needed it.

One day I will be happy to report that I truly and honestly love my hair.


----------



## navsegda (Jan 30, 2007)

Bunny77 said:
			
		

> The reason it's a big deal for me is because I have met too many young (and old) black women who have suffered from low self-esteem and all of its accompanying side effects (like depression) because of aesthetic issues like hair and skin color. Now, I'm a person who believes that what really matters is what's inside... how good of a person you are, how intelligent you are, what you've done for the world, whatever, but even the most enlightened of women want to feel beautiful. They want at least one man in their lives to tell them they are beautiful.



If you feel that someone is truly in danger of hurting themselves (physically or emotionally) or others, then it makes sense for something to be a big deal.  However, if a girl just says "I don't like my texture because it's hard to manage" then no one should read that much into it unless she chooses to elaborate.  This is when it should not be a big deal.  Now if you give her suggestions on how she could use product X,Y, or Z to make her natural texture more manageable, then that doesn't mean you are making a big deal out of things.  She may be thankful or she may think you have overstepped your boundaries, who knows?  However, if you give her these suggestions and then go on and on about how she should accept and _love _her natural texture and stop trying to fight it because it's not meant to be forced into submission, then that's when you can become insulting.  Sometimes when we do make something a big deal that really isn't (from the person's standpoint in my example), it does more harm than good.  Because of what we may wrongly perceive as being a self esteem issue based on our experiences with others, if we voice it as that without further elaboration or invitation on the commenter's part, then we can indirectly cause it TO become a self esteem issue or other psychological problem.



			
				Bunny77 said:
			
		

> Reading Kally's posts through this thread (and sorry to call her out again, but she is the OP, so I'll refer to her), she mentioned that she had low self-esteem and this hair issue is one that has caused her great mental pain. She was woman enough to be honest and put it out there like that, but I'm sure she's far from the only one to feel that way... and I know that low self-esteem affects all women, but it's particularly insiduous for black women because many of our features are totally opposite of the white beauty ideal.


And look at how some people behaved when she admitted this.  Do you really think that berating her was the answer (I know you didn't do this)?  You (general) do NOT kick someone when they are down.  If negativity is all you have to offer, then it really should not be a big deal to you if the fact that it is a big deal is going to cause you to lash out or hurt someone else instead of helping them.  If everyone here had given her helpful suggestions on boosting her self esteem instead of attacking her for her views then it would not have been an issue.  I know some tried to be helpful and weren't being attacking but others were doing the opposite.





			
				Bunny77 said:
			
		

> This is not about saying one has to be natural to love one's hair or anything like that, but I think to say "what's the big deal" regarding the black community's indoctrination that 1A hair is best is only keeping many of us in a place of pain, shame, hurt, etc.... We need to REALLY look past the fact that some individuals are enlightened about this topic and truly address what most of the community feels about hair (and our skin tone too, I'd say) to get to a point where maybe we can make more positive change in our community.


How do we know what most of the black community thinks about their hair texture or skin color?  Assumptions can lead us in very dark places...We can for instance make a statement based on what we see (texture demographics, etc.) but we jump the gun when we say that most people _feel_ a certain way, too.  We may personally know several black women who have voiced that they have self-esteem or other issues because of hair texture but that doesn't mean these are the majority.  In fact, I have seen no evidence that the majority of black women feel that 1A hair (or the like) is best.  I'm using relaxed as an example because this is how many of us achieve a "straighter" texture of the hair already on our head and this is something that can actually be seen and quanitifed.  Even if most of us are relaxed, you cannot always link what we see (the relaxed texture) to how we feel (unappreciative of our race or ourselves).  Truth be known, we just do not know that the majority who relax or may be otherwise uncomfortable with their texture (there are some naturals who are currently uncomfortable for whatever reason) do so because of some underlying emotional pain, self-hatred, or lack of pride in one's heritage.  If someone does a study though with say, 20,000 black women (such as by a mass questionnaire) and then the majority of them express self esteem issues over their natural hair texture, then we're getting somewhere.

I am glad we can have a civil conversation about this.


----------



## Mahalialee4 (Jan 30, 2007)

I empathize with you Kally. and Bunny77 you were right. My point that I was making....the psychological damage that has been done to black people in general and to black women regarding what is their crowning glory and that hatred and self hatred has messed with our heads to actually feel like it is a crown of thorns!!!!   or instead of something that uplifts and reaffirms you being seen as a burden, a cross to bear....that's what "racism" started. Had it not been for racism, none of this would be an issue......See, what you "believe" is what causes people to get depressed.....to even turn on themselves to where they believe that their lying tormenters are right!  but in truth...THERE IS NOTHING WRONG.... with black women, their features or THEIR HAIR....NOTHING....it is what you believe and why you believe it that is WRONG!

Here is an example: A young girl with doubts about herself, finds herself feeling, unloved, unwanted, and having no value.  She meets a "man" who says He is going to be her protector and that he knows what she needs and what is best for her. He pretends to be this benevolent person. He uses manipulation and mindcontrol by lying and twisting the truth. Next thing, she falls under his power, and puts her on the street, constantly proving to this monster thatshe is "worthy of his love and attention and approval." She gets it by turning tricks, in the process being taken from one self degradation to another. Now "smooth talker" starts telling her she is dirt! nothing! psychologically breaking her down, keeping her in a mental state, a psychological prison, and eventually she believes it because  not only does he say so but her behaviours reinforce that she is bad! dirty! and that no man could ever love someone like her!!! She hated herself! and that she cannot even go home again! How was this accomplished??? because something in her life experience had primed her for this and when she was most vulnerable someone came along to finish her off!  That's what was done to us! 

Everything about us got PIMPED through racism, RIGHT DOWN TO THE HAIR ON OUR HEADS.  But what you believe now that you know the truth is going to empower you and when they see that we do not need their approval or their standards  TO JUDGE OURSELVES BY, their power WILL CEASE!
Now apply that to your hair!!!




Kally I totally applaud your honesty and your openess and I know you were speaking from your heart and it ain't nothing wrong with being honest about how you really feel. (lots of hugs sis)



bonjour....


----------



## jenteel (Jan 30, 2007)

Mahalialee4 said:
			
		

> I empathize with you Kally. and Bunny77 you were right. My point that I was making....the psychological damage that has been done to black people in general and to black women regarding what is their crowning glory and that hatred and self hatred has messed with our heads to actually feel like it is a crown of thorns!!!! or instead of something that uplifts and reaffirms you being seen as a burden, a cross to bear....that's what "racism" started. Had it not been for racism, none of this would be an issue......See, what you "believe" is what causes people to get depressed.....to even turn on themselves to where they believe that their lying tormenters are right! but in truth...THERE IS NOTHING WRONG.... with black women, their features or THEIR HAIR....NOTHING....it is what you believe and why you believe it that is WRONG!



i totally agree!
i am not militant - do what u want w/ ur hair!
however i do believe these issues are tied into racism point blank
and it saddens me that we feel these ways about ourselves.....


----------



## zailless (Jan 30, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> If you feel that someone is truly in danger of hurting themselves (physically or emotionally) or others, then it makes sense for something to be a big deal. However, if a girl just says "I don't like my texture because it's hard to manage" then no one should read that much into it unless she chooses to elaborate. This is when it should not be a big deal. Now if you give her suggestions on how she could use product X,Y, or Z to make her natural texture more manageable, then that doesn't mean you are making a big deal out of things. She may be thankful or she may think you have overstepped your boundaries, who knows? However, if you give her these suggestions and then go on and on about how she should accept and _love _her natural texture and stop trying to fight it because it's not meant to be forced into submission, then that's when you can become insulting. Sometimes when we do make something a big deal that really isn't (from the person's standpoint in my example), it does more harm than good. Because of what we may wrongly perceive as being a self esteem issue based on our experiences with others, if we voice it as that without further elaboration or invitation on the commenter's part, then we can indirectly cause it TO become a self esteem issue or other psychological problem.
> 
> 
> And look at how some people behaved when she admitted this. Do you really think that berating her was the answer (I know you didn't do this)? You (general) do NOT kick someone when they are down. If negativity is all you have to offer, then it really should not be a big deal to you if the fact that it is a big deal is going to cause you to lash out or hurt someone else instead of helping them. If everyone here had given her helpful suggestions on boosting her self esteem instead of attacking her for her views then it would not have been an issue. I know some tried to be helpful and weren't being attacking but others were doing the opposite.
> ...


 
I have never met one black person who had self esteem issues related to hair. I think people make up things to support their point.  

why is it some peopole think other races look down on black hair so if we dont like it they wont.  this is simply bs.  other races accept blacks for who they are. its blacks who blow the differences out of the water and continually segregate based on superficial issues.  for this to come up in a hair discussion is proof that whites owe us something too for our hair issues .  this is only what i understand from this 'we must love our hair cause other races look down' idea.


----------



## LynnieB (Jan 30, 2007)

i'm quoting zailless here but also want to respond to anyone else who doesn't seem to think there is a problem with black hair.



			
				zailless said:
			
		

> I have never met one black person who had self esteem issues related to hair. I think people make up things to support their point.


i sincerely hope you were kidding when you wrote this because there is a website that is totally dedicated to to black folks dealing with just this type of self esteem issue and it IS directly related (for the most part) to hair.
____

this is a real, serious problem and just because it may not effect you negatively, it does effect at least *56,319* other registered  men and women on NP erplexed

for those who have never dealt with "the hair/skin issue" i'm truly happy for you - we need to have empathy for those that do and help lift them up and beyond the stigma associated with our blackness.


----------



## WomanlyCharm (Jan 30, 2007)

zailless said:
			
		

> *I have never met one black person who had self esteem issues related to hair. I think people make up things to support their point.*


 
Oh please.  You cannot be serious.  I mean really.  You've never met one black woman who was upset because her hair was short, broken off, not growing, and felt ugly and unhappy because of it?

What website are you on?  ONE ABOUT BLACK/WOMEN OF COLOR GROWING HEALTHY AND POTENTIALLY LONG HAIR.  And there are many other websites devoted to this very subject!  For many ladies, hair IS a self-esteem issue, and for you to simply dismiss it as "someone trying to support a point" is ludacris and short-sighted.


----------



## Soleado (Jan 30, 2007)

jenteel said:
			
		

> i totally agree!
> i am not militant - do what u want w/ ur hair!
> however i do believe these issues are tied into racism point blank
> and it saddens me that we feel these ways about ourselves.....



I agree!! It is also very sad to me that we continue to live in a state of self-delusion where we really believe that for the majority it is all about a choice. I don't know. Maybe all the enlightened folks are on this board, but in IRL I do not see this played out by what people say and what they do AT ALL. I have heard too many negative comments made from people about their own hair and I have seen too many grown woman slobbering and salivating over particular hairtypes to ever believe that it is all truly just a matter of preference. 

Unfortuntately, I have just come to realize that this will always be a issue in the black community because we will not HONESTLY address the issues at hand and will continue to put up the smoke and mirrors. 

Oh well, C'est la vie!


----------



## navsegda (Jan 30, 2007)

LynnieB said:
			
		

> this is a real, serious problem and just because it may not effect you negatively, it does effect at least *56,319* other registered  men and women on NP erplexed


I have a question.  Are all the 56,319 people registered at nappturality.com there because they have self esteem issues with their hair or are some of these people there because they want to bond with others like them who appreciate their hair, for instance?  Dealing with a social stigma and having personal self esteem issues related to that stigma do not have to be the same thing.  They can be mutually exclusive of one another.  How do we know the purpose for ALL the people on a website as large as that?  Have all of them posted and said as much?  Or are we just assuming because of the nature of the site or the welcome message outlined that everyone is struggling with some type of hair self esteem issue?  You can be uplifting and empowering to someone else without having the same type of problem yourself.  If someone tells me "I hate being white," I've never been white nor have I ever hated being black, but I can still offer some type of encouragement if I so wished.

This is not to say that there aren't several people there who in fact may have self esteem issues related to their hair.  It's to say that a broad generalization cannot be made based on the amount of registered users.  If I have misinterpreted what you are saying, feel free to correct me.


----------



## LynnieB (Jan 30, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> I have a question.  Are all the 56,319 people registered at nappturality.com there because they have self esteem issues with their hair or are some of these people there because they want to bond with others like them who appreciate their hair, for instance?  Dealing with a social stigma and having personal self esteem issues related to that stigma do not have to be the same thing.  They can be mutually exclusive of one another.  How do we know the purpose for ALL the people on a website as large as that?  Have all of them posted and said as much?  Or are we just assuming because of the nature of the site or the welcome message outlined that everyone is struggling with some type of hair self esteem issue?  You can be uplifting and empowering to someone else without having the same type of problem yourself.  If someone tells me "I hate being white," I've never been white nor have I ever hated being black, but I can still offer some type of encouragement if I so wished.
> 
> This is not to say that there aren't several people there who in fact may have self esteem issues related to their hair.  It's to say that a broad generalization cannot be made based on the amount of registered users.  If I have misinterpreted what you are saying, feel free to correct me.



navsegda, why don't you ask them?  not being funny or anything, it's just a great question that i'm sure alot of the members would not mind answering at all.

here's the greeting page (mission statement).......personally, i would say hair acceptance issues bring folks in initially.........

the mission statement of NP http://www.nappturality.com/index.php


----------



## navsegda (Jan 30, 2007)

LynnieB said:
			
		

> navsegda, why don't you ask them?  not being funny or anything, it's just a great question that i'm sure alot of the members would not mind answering at all.
> 
> here's the greeting page (mission statement).......personally, i would say hair acceptance issues bring folks in initially.........
> 
> the mission statement of NP http://www.nappturality.com/index.php


I'm not a member, YET, HAHAHAHA.

I totally agree that it may be hair acceptance that brings them in.  However, hair acceptance and having problems with self esteem personally do not have to be related issues.  Self esteem implies a personal problem; acceptance encompasses a much greater landscape (you could be accepting of yourself and others and help them with their own issues but it doesn't mean you are going through the same thing).


----------



## LynnieB (Jan 30, 2007)

ok let's git down and dirty........

many of black women's self esteem issues are directly related to their hair's texture, its just that simple and that complex.  i never said all but many and it's deep enough that an entire website is devoted alleviating these issues.

we can go round and round but the site and the what it stands for can speak for itself.  

please, go ask the ladies there.........they don't all bite


----------



## navsegda (Jan 30, 2007)

LynnieB said:
			
		

> ok let's git down and dirty........
> 
> many of black women's self esteem issues are directly related to their hair's texture, its just that simple and that complex.  i never said all but many and it's deep enough that an entire website is devoted alleviating these issues.
> 
> ...


[email protected]

I am glad that you said many.  If you know several black women who do have these problems, then you can say many.  Many is different from MOST and ALL.  You can say that MOST people are relaxed based on a particular area or most people are natural based on a particular area because this is something we can see and measure.  But we don't really know what's going on in MOST people's heads.  Human thought processes are really more complex than just one simple issue a lot of the time.  I'm not having tunnel vision I'm just being real.  I think if we could REALLY see what was going on inside a lot of people's heads, we'd be very shocked.

Also, how do you feel about this statement there?

"We don't debate the wonders of relaxing and we don't talk about the benefits of relaxing on Nappturality because *frankly, there aren't any benefits to using that chemical*."


----------



## LynnieB (Jan 30, 2007)

girl now you know you're asking the wrong woman.....

i'm 12 months into transitioning and never eva going back!  for wha?

i'm not afraid of my natural hair i'm one of those women for whom it never occurred to not relax......sounds crazy don't it?

in walks alopecia out went the box 

NP's feeling is this.......we LOVE natural hair.  if you do indeed love YOUR natural hair there ARE NO benefits to using a relaxer, see?



ETA:  i'm doing pretty good on the typos for being up all night at work, aren't I? lol
i gotta get some sleep in a few but will stop back in after i get to work (gotta love wi-fi networks!!!!)


----------



## mili (Jan 30, 2007)

Hello Everyone this is Mili, 

I am new to the forum,  I totally agreee with FlowerHair's statment!!


----------



## CaramelMiSS (Jan 30, 2007)

Mahalialee4 said:
			
		

> Asha: Do not be destroyed. That was not the final word. It also talked about restoration if you keep reading. I am not saying that this refers to black people, I am just saying that even if it did, READ THE WHOLE STORY AND THEN YOU CAN BE ENCOURAGED bonjour


 
Thank you!!!!!

I could always remember my father and everyone else saying Jesus was black.  SO what does that mean Jesus is black, well I took that to heart, and if he was black and from the tribe of Judah, then hell, most black people and from the twelve tribes.  But anyways that's all I wanted to say you will hear no more from me.


----------



## missann (Jan 30, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> Also, how do you feel about this statement there?
> 
> "We don't debate the wonders of relaxing and we don't talk about the benefits of relaxing on Nappturality because *frankly, there aren't any benefits to using that chemical*."


 
_Naturally_, I think it's great!


----------



## Mahalialee4 (Jan 30, 2007)

zailless said:
			
		

> I have never met one black person who had self esteem issues related to hair. I think people make up things to support their point.
> 
> why is it some peopole think other races look down on black hair so if we dont like it they wont.  this is simply bs.  other races accept blacks for who they are. its blacks who blow the differences out of the water and continually segregate based on superficial issues.  for this to come up in a hair discussion is proof that whites owe us something too for our hair issues .  this is only what i understand from this 'we must love our hair cause other races look down' idea.



Thank you for being so honest about how you feel.
I am sorry if this offends you, but your statement leaves me feeling:
(a)  You are not friends with any AA women who are comfortable enough to trust you with their feelings or experiences on this issue
(b)  You can not empathize or identify with this issue.
(c)   You have totally negated 100% of anyone else's experiences than your own and have inferred that any experience or knowledge that anyone else has contrary to your "experience" is made up
(d)  That you have no knowledge of the roots and teachings of racism and the specific scientific statements that have been made regarding our hair
(e)  And that chemists (white) promote the "straight hair" is beautiful and produce an immense variety of chemical straighteners to promote this belief
and if an AA walks into a white salon, the first thing they want to do is straighten your hair, because they "either do not work with your kind of hair" or refer you to a black salon! and 
(f) You have spoken for every single black and white woman in America.
But if that is your honest belief and feeling thank you for being honest about them. I am not going to debate your feelings with you. My posts were to provide understanding and support to the original poster on this topic.  

As for the women on Nappturality, the majority of those were former relaxers, hot combers, or jerricurlers, etc who tried to maintain a texture change in their hair and were "not" embracing their natural hair and paid a bitter price, that is what brought them to that site! and had been among those who had tried to "adhere to the standard of beauty" promoted by racism BEFORE THEY FINALLY SAW THE LIGHT about what they had been doing to themselves and why. God bless those ladies!

And ladies, Zailless is being honest, I assume she is because she put it in writing, so we are not going to turn this into an ugly thread, right. We do understand that some people really feel this way. As far as the statement about chemicals made there, it is at the crux of  their mission and philosophy, I see nothing wrong with it, because THAT IS WHAT THEIR SITE IS ABOUT and they cover that issue in all of its totality and get right down to the real nitty gritty.  And that is what this thread is about. It is about getting at the roots of belief systems about the texture of our hair. bonjour


----------



## Mahalialee4 (Jan 30, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> I'm not a member, YET, HAHAHAHA.
> 
> I totally agree that it may be hair acceptance that brings them in.  However, hair acceptance and having problems with self esteem personally do not have to be related issues.  (((Self esteem implies a personal problem))); acceptance encompasses a much greater landscape (you could be accepting of yourself and others and help them with their own issues but it doesn't mean you are going through the same thing).



Yes, self esteem is a very PERSONAL PROBLEM, but in order for people to really address it, and heal they have to understand the root of the problem. They have to as the Bible says "Take the axe to the root!" and   you cannot help anyone if you are yourself unable to face the truth THAT THERE IS A PROBLEM, about the root of the problem and empathize with how it is affecting THEM. What kind of comfort and awareness and insight could be offered that would HELP THEM HEAL  when you have already judged them as delusional???  That is why the moderator on Nappurality has helped so many. She can relate.  bonjour


----------



## Enchantmt (Jan 30, 2007)

One thing I think to note while speaking of esteem issues: Just because someone is affected by this doesnt mean they are totally impaired to where they cant function or be sucessful. I hate to use this example because when it happened I cringed, but even Oprah, with all her money, was SO PROUD of a pony tail that took her xx numbers of years to get she had to proclaim it on national tv. Is she successful? Definitely. However there was still a part of her that wanted her hair to be something she could be proud of, and from what can be gathered from her comments over the years something that she has struggled with to a certain degree.


----------



## Mahalialee4 (Jan 30, 2007)

Enchantmt said:
			
		

> One thing I think to note while speaking of esteem issues: Just because someone is affected by this doesnt mean they are totally impaired to where they cant function or be sucessful. I hate to use this example because when it happened I cringed, but even Oprah, with all her money, was SO PROUD of a pony tail that took her xx numbers of years to get she had to proclaim it on national tv. Is she successful? Definitely. However there was still a part of her that wanted her hair to be something she could be proud of, and from what can be gathered from her comments over the years something that she has struggled with to a certain degree.


 
Yesss!!! I watched that show, and listened to th comment she made...explaining to her mainly white audience why it was such a big deal and I know that when white people see so many black women with arts and craft hair and spending "money they don't have', on  lace front weaves and stick straight phony ponies on top of drastically different textured hair, they wonder,  "what the  world?" But of course, the scientists have already told us all  "black people cannot grow long hair" so they probably understand. lol


----------



## Zahrah (Jan 30, 2007)

Isis said:
			
		

> I just want to say there is nothing wrong with kinky, coily hair. Some white people are born with it, especially in parts of Russia and some of the surrounding countries where the weather is frigid. I have met a few personally with 4a-4b hair. *Some white Jewish people also have kinky, coily hair*.


 
I agree. I work with a Jewish woman who relaxes her hair and flat irons it everyday. AND, it is severely damaged from this. She is now sporting a bang that she did not cut, it was made from everyday heat.


----------



## Bunny77 (Jan 30, 2007)

zailless said:
			
		

> I have never met one black person who had self esteem issues related to hair. *I think people make up things to support their point.*



Oh come freakin' on... look, if you haven't met any black person like that, then good for you and tell me where you live so I can move there and be in utopia... but then to accuse folks of making stuff up? WTF? Maybe I should accuse you of trying to avoid the subject because you don't wanna hear ideas that contradict what you believe.

Forget Nappturality, just read this darn thread and you'll see ONE person who flat out admitted she had a self esteem issue because of her hair, so now you know of one. Welcome to reality.  

And you've been on this site long enough to see others express the same belief in other threads, so maybe should we say that YOU are the one making things up or just ignoring what you don't want to see because you don't feel that way?

I am trying to be civil and keep this conversation decent, but this is getting ridiculous that someone would say that folks are making stuff up to make a point when hair has been an issue for black people since we got off the boat. Even the most enlightened folks on this board cannot deny that hair is an issue in the black community and the reason it remains an issue is because folks can't be HONEST and talk about it.


----------



## Mahalialee4 (Jan 30, 2007)

Sweetalmondeyes said:
			
		

> I agree. I work with a Jewish woman who relaxes her hair and flat irons it everyday. AND, it is severely damaged from this. She is now sporting a bang that she did not cut, it was made from everyday heat.



And she relaxes because? And it is damaged because?...trying to make her hair to conform to a standard of personal beauty , consciously or subconciously or just as a matter of choice? or PREFERENCE?   Her and a whole lot of white ladies too. HMM  bonjour


----------



## Mahalialee4 (Jan 30, 2007)

Bunny77 said:
			
		

> Oh come freakin' on... look, if you haven't met any black person like that, then good for you and tell me where you live so I can move there and be in utopia... but then to accuse folks of making stuff up? WTF? Maybe I should accuse you of trying to avoid the subject because you don't wanna hear ideas that contradict what you believe.
> 
> Forget Nappturality, just read this darn thread and you'll see ONE person who flat out admitted she had a self esteem issue because of her hair, so now you know of one. Welcome to reality.
> 
> ...



cool sistah! you are not going to play into this, right?  you understand about "hair splitting" right?????   ("many" versus "all"  and all that)....cool...I got ya back!!! (hug)


----------



## longnapps (Jan 30, 2007)

I don't find my hair to be difficult at allerplexed  as a matter of fact I know of alot of my asian and hispanic friends who do the same things we talk about on this board. Daily blowdrying and manipulation is dangerous to any type of hair.


----------



## navsegda (Jan 30, 2007)

Slightly OT but speaking of curses in this thread:

Has anyone heard that white skin only came about because of leprosy and this is the basis of the white race?

I heard this as a little girl and I was like "WTF.  People cannot be serious."  Does anyone actually believe there is any validity to this?  I just read this again now on a site where someone says "The Bible says all white people are lepers, having leprosy, and you are unclean."  If you think this is absurd, do you think it's just as absurd for someone to believe that kinky hair is the way it is because of a curse?  Or does a curse (whether hair or skin) only apply to one race?  Or could every race have some type of curse?  Or does no race have ANY curse?


----------



## Bunny77 (Jan 30, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> If you feel that someone is truly in danger of hurting themselves (physically or emotionally) or others, then it makes sense for something to be a big deal.  However, if a girl just says "I don't like my texture because it's hard to manage" then no one should read that much into it unless she chooses to elaborate.  This is when it should not be a big deal.  Now if you give her suggestions on how she could use product X,Y, or Z to make her natural texture more manageable, then that doesn't mean you are making a big deal out of things.  She may be thankful or she may think you have overstepped your boundaries, who knows?  However, if you give her these suggestions and then go on and on about how she should accept and _love _her natural texture and stop trying to fight it because it's not meant to be forced into submission, then that's when you can become insulting.  Sometimes when we do make something a big deal that really isn't (from the person's standpoint in my example), it does more harm than good.  Because of what we may wrongly perceive as being a self esteem issue based on our experiences with others, if we voice it as that without further elaboration or invitation on the commenter's part, then we can indirectly cause it TO become a self esteem issue or other psychological problem.



I definitely think there's an art to addressing people and helping, but I'll just give some examples I have experienced that make me see it's not that simple. 

Outside of hair boards, I don't discuss hair. I don't tell people they should go natural, I don't criticize relaxers, I just don't really talk about hair unless someone asks. And when I do, I give tips on hair care (usually natural, since that's what I have, but I also talk about stretching relaxers). 

But what usually happens is this... I get these kinds of responses... "Well, that sounds too difficult," "I can't get a job with this hair," "Ooh, I couldn't stretch a relaxer for 3 months with this nappy mess on my head," "Well, it looks good on you, but my hair is unmanageable."

So then I might present an alternative... "No, your hair probably isn't as unmanageable as you think, you just have to manage it differently, and here's how. Answer?: "Oh yeah? Try coming to my house and managing this... girl you just don't know!"

And the conversation goes nowhere because many folks simply aren't willing to really get down deep inside themselves and challenge the negative thoughts they have about their hair, no matter how nicely you put it. And in some cases, yeah, it bugs me because they are asking me questions/making comments, yet they don't wanna "hear" one thing I'm saying because their mind is so closed... and why do you think that is?  And why shouldn't someone suggest that they love and accept their natural texture if all they're doing is complaining about it? Sure, we can say, "Yeah girl, it's a pain in the butt," all day long but then what? Why is it fair for them to subject me or others to such negativity, but then when I suggest the alternative of loving and accepting their hair, suddenly I'm being pushy? 

Doesn't seem fair to me... I not only have to be criticized for my choice (and natural women are going to get FAR more criticism than relaxed/pressed women -- I've never heard anyone telling a relaxed woman that she won't get a job/man/respect with her hair) but then I can't dare say anything "positive" about loving one's natural texture because then I'm not "accepting" their choice. Sounds like a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation to me...

As long as I'm not questioning one's blackness or criticizing the person, I don't see what's wrong with telling a frustrated black woman to start loving and accepting her hair (cause no matter how you choose to wear it, you have to accept it's advantages and limitations) and I will continue to do so IF we are having a discussion about hair. Being understanding and accepting of one's choice doesn't mean I have to hear whining and moaning all the darn time without saying something in response. 



> How do we know what most of the black community thinks about their hair texture or skin color?  Assumptions can lead us in very dark places...We can for instance make a statement based on what we see (texture demographics, etc.) but we jump the gun when we say that most people _feel_ a certain way, too.  We may personally know several black women who have voiced that they have self-esteem or other issues because of hair texture but that doesn't mean these are the majority.



It may not be the majority, but it is a LOT of people. I grew up in a large majority black city and talk about hair texture and skin color happened ALL THE DANGON TIME, so that's how most of us on this board "know" what A LOT of people are thinking. 

Now, I don't know where you grew up and maybe you didn't have this experience... if so, then great... but I guess what is kinda sorta bugging me about these comments is that they seem to be ignoring a reality that isn't exactly hard to put a finger on. If you were born and raised in the USA and spent a lot of time around black people, then you had to have heard negative talk about hair... if not your own hair, other people's hair. And skin color as well. I don't even think you can call it an assumption because it is as common as the sun rising and setting every day in the lives of most people who grew up in majority black areas in the USA. Can I say it's a majority? No. Can I say it's a lot? Heck yeah, and I'll say it all day long!

Again, if you grew up differently, then I understand why you feel the way you do. But if you grew up in a place like Detroit, where even today I can go for days without seeing a natural-haired black woman in a city of 900,000 people (and 70% of those are black), or seeing beauty salons on every corner in every neighborhood and yet so far I have only found TWO that can do natural hair outside of braids....then you wouldn't say it's an assumption... 

By the way, I am interested in knowing your background, because maybe I could understand more why you believe the way you do. 



> If someone does a study though with say, 20,000 black women (such as by a mass questionnaire) and then the majority of them express self esteem issues over their natural hair texture, then we're getting somewhere.



I'd bet a significant sum of money that I could do this study of 20,000 black women in Detroit alone and get you that majority, let alone the rest of the country.  



> I am glad we can have a civil conversation about this.



Well, I might have lost my civility in another post, , but I hope I civily addressed yours!


----------



## DragonPearl (Jan 30, 2007)

LynnieB said:
			
		

> navsegda, why don't you ask them?  not being funny or anything, it's just a great question that i'm sure alot of the members would not mind answering at all.
> 
> here's the greeting page (mission statement).......personally, i would say hair acceptance issues bring folks in initially.........
> 
> the mission statement of NP http://www.nappturality.com/index.php



I was on NP when it first started, with a handful of people.  Prior to that, I was on another natural hair site that no longer exists.

I don't think one can assume that acceptance issues is what brings *everybody* to those sites.  That is an overly broad statement.  When I BCed in 2001, I had no acceptance issues.  I didn't need anybody to tell me that my hair was beautiful and that I was worthy and beautiful.  What I wanted was more information on how to take care of my hair, I wanted hairstyles and hair care ideas for natural hair.  We all know the black magazines and salons do not really offer advice on how to care for and style your hair.  They only teach you how to be weavelicious. 

It was wonderful to be part of a community that celebrated natural kinky/nappy, as opposed to being part of a community that reviled it. Those sites were great for the growing natural hair community, as together, we explored myriad ways to care for our hair.  We experimented a lot.  Co-washing.  Denman brushing.  Banding. etc...  I also watched things like wanting defined curls and pressing become non-PC.  I don't post there much anymore. 

Where I am now?  I love my natural hair, but it does not define me.  I think natural hair is beautiful, and I think that relaxed and pressed and texturized hair are also beautiful.  I could slap a perm now if I so desire.  I refuse to be defined by something that's growing out of my scalp.


----------



## Enchantmt (Jan 30, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> Slightly OT but speaking of curses in this thread:
> 
> Has anyone heard that white skin only came about because of leprosy and this is the basis of the white race?
> 
> I heard this as a little girl and I was like "WTF.  People cannot be serious."  Does anyone actually believe there is any validity to this?  I just read this again now on a site where someone says "The Bible says all white people are lepers, having leprosy, and you are unclean."  If you think this is absurd, do you think it's just as absurd for someone to believe that kinky hair is the way it is because of a curse?  Or does a curse (whether hair or skin) only apply to one race?  Or could every race have some type of curse?  Or does no race have ANY curse?



I've never heard this. They may have it confused with Moses and his sister Miriam.  Moses took a cush-ite (forum censors wont let me spell the word right) wife (read: black woman) and his sister had a problem with it. Seeing as Miriam's punishment from God was to turn her skin white as snow for several days, I'm assuming that she took issue because she was black (and that God has a sense of humor),   although the bible doesnt state what the specific reason was that Miriam didnt like her.


----------



## Bunny77 (Jan 30, 2007)

Mahalialee4 said:
			
		

> cool sistah! you are not going to play into this, right?  you understand about "hair splitting" right?????   ("many" versus "all"  and all that)....cool...I got ya back!!! (hug)



Yeah... I'm gonna let it go... gotta breathe....  

But thanks for the support!


----------



## Hidden_Angel (Jan 30, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> Slightly OT but speaking of curses in this thread:
> 
> Has anyone heard that white skin only came about because of leprosy and this is the basis of the white race?
> 
> I heard this as a little girl and I was like "WTF. People cannot be serious." Does anyone actually believe there is any validity to this? I just read this again now on a site where someone says "The Bible says all white people are lepers, having leprosy, and you are unclean." If you think this is absurd, do you think it's just as absurd for someone to believe that kinky hair is the way it is because of a curse? Or does a curse (whether hair or skin) only apply to one race? Or could every race have some type of curse? Or does no race have ANY curse?


 

Yep i heared it and have to agree with it..  just an oppion though...


----------



## Enchantmt (Jan 30, 2007)

Before things get heated let me redirect everyones attention to the following thread: 

http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=99040


Good discussion so far ladies! Let's keep the dialogue going!!


----------



## JustKiya (Jan 30, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> Slightly OT but speaking of curses in this thread:
> 
> Has anyone heard that white skin only came about because of leprosy and this is the basis of the white race?
> 
> I heard this as a little girl and I was like "WTF. People cannot be serious." Does anyone actually believe there is any validity to this? I just read this again now on a site where someone says "The Bible says all white people are lepers, having leprosy, and you are unclean." If you think this is absurd, do you think it's just as absurd for someone to believe that kinky hair is the way it is because of a curse? Or does a curse (whether hair or skin) only apply to one race? Or could every race have some type of curse? Or does no race have ANY curse?


 
I've heard that - and I thought it was bullcrap then, and I think it's bullcrap now.  And of course, ya'll know how I feel about the idea that kinky hair is a curse.   



			
				zailless said:
			
		

> <snip>
> why is it some peopole think other races look down on black hair so if we dont like it they wont. this is simply bs. other races accept blacks for who they are. its blacks who blow the differences out of the water and continually segregate based on superficial issues. <snip>


 
HELLO!!! See - this, RIGHT here - is what I'm talking about. It seems like every conversation about black folx hair, AMONG black people, always ends up talking bout white folx/other races. 

Nah, nah. We need to be honest, and we need to own up, and maybe EVERY SINGLE SISTER here relaxes her hair because she prefers the ease of management - but we ALL know that a LOT of black folx do NOT perm their hair because 'it's easier' to manage. A LOT of black women perm their hair because they don't KNOW any better. A LOT of black women perm their hair because they believe they don't HAVE any other 'acceptable' choice if they want a man/job/to be admired as beautiful. A LOT of black women perm their hair because they think their hair is wrong/ugly/shameful. 
And can't NOBODY here say that isn't true. And I can't say that EVERY woman who perms believes this - but I'd betcha in a random poll of random black women (not the cream of the crop who hang out and educate themselves on hair boards)  there would be more women who HONESTLY dislike their NATURAL hair and perm to hide the shame of not being born with straight hair than there are women who perm 'just to make it easier to 'manage'. 

And what's up with the whole easier to manage thing? I honestly think that a LOT of that is ignorance - and I can speak on that from my OWN personal story. Back in 2000, I had just come out of two years worth of braids - because I had permed my hair, realized that my hair HATED being straight, and was transitioning (without even knowing what transitioning was). 
I started wearing two strand twists - and can I tell you, I HATED dealing with my hair. I DREADED dealing with my hair. It would literally take me EIGHT HOURS to untwist, detangle and wash my hair - and it WASN'T that long - MAYBE neck length?

EIGHT HOURS ya'll - what woman in her right MIND wants to spend that much time on her hair every week? So - I got dreadlocks - cuz I mean, what ELSE can you do with natural hair??? 
I took my locs out in May 06, and I took the time to LEARN about my hair. I took the time to READ the ingredients of the stuff that I put on my hair. I took the time to UNDERSTAND my hairs needs AND it's issues. 

And you know what? I don't know WHAT the hell I was doing wrong with my hair back in 2000. My hair is an entirely DIFFERENT animal than it was then - and I haven't had any babies that might account for a hormonal difference in my hair - so what's REALLY changed? 

ME. I now KNOW how to take care of my hair - and I went from a woman who BELIEVED that her hair was SO unmanagable that my ONLY choices were dreadlocks or a perm, to one who WANTS to grow 2 FEET worth of this fragile, kinky, nappy, glorious hair.  

And we can change this in ONE generation. Teach your daughters/nieces/sisters/cousins  HOW to take care of their natural hair - slowly, gently, lovingly. Stop calling them tenderheaded because you are HURTING them ripping a narrowtooth comb through dry hair. Stop comparing your babies to babies of other races and complaining bout how OUR hair isn't like THEIR hair. In fact - point out how them OTHER children can't do ANYTHING with their hair BUT wear it straight, while WE can rock every style under the sun - from TWA to asslength HAIR - not a weave! 

Teach your sons/nephews/brothers/cousins that black women with natural hair is GORGEOUS. Teach that that black women with SHORT natural hair ain't ALL gay. Don't LAUGH when they say that a women with short natural hair looks like a boy. 

Go back BEFORE slavery and look at the Kings and Queens richer than ALL the Europeans wore their hair and the beauty of it. Check out some of the tribes that are STILL celebratining and wearing their natural hair. 

Make it a REAL choice - a choice to go straight or a choice to stay nappy based on what YOU want - not what some random dude you ain't even MET yet might want. Not based on what some narrowminded boss at a job might want. Not based on some antiquated idea of 'appropiate' hair. 

We've been dealing with this for TOO DAMN LONG.  And avoiding the topic - the roots - of things - in ourselves, in our men, in our children - ain't gon encourage JACKALL to change. 

Be loved, ya'll.


----------



## Hidden_Angel (Jan 30, 2007)

Enchantmt said:
			
		

> Before things get heated let me redirect everyones attention to the following thread:
> 
> http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=99040
> 
> ...


 

 Yes i sooo agree...


----------



## Enchantmt (Jan 30, 2007)

nappywomyn, I think you and bunny are my two favorite people today. Well said!!!


----------



## Bunny77 (Jan 30, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> [email protected]
> 
> I am glad that you said many.  If you know several black women who do have these problems, then you can say many.  Many is different from MOST and ALL.  You can say that MOST people are relaxed based on a particular area or most people are natural based on a particular area because this is something we can see and measure.  But we don't really know what's going on in MOST people's heads.  Human thought processes are really more complex than just one simple issue a lot of the time.  I'm not having tunnel vision I'm just being real.  I think if we could REALLY see what was going on inside a lot of people's heads, we'd be very shocked.
> 
> ...



I'm an active member of three hair sites... this one, Nappturality and Naturallycurly. I get different information and fellowship from all three and I like them all... and I think there's a place for all of them.

I like this site because I am someone who loves long hair and I like being on a site in which that goal is promoted. I like seeing pictures of long hair too... makes me happy to see black women defying a conventional idea that our hair can't grow. 

I like Naturallycurly because my hair is curlier than it is kinky (although some white folks would probably say otherwise) and I like getting information on enhancing my curls and using products specifically designed to keep curls looking curls as great as possible.

I like Nappturality because it's nice to see black women who choose to wear their hair natural have a place in which they can freely discuss their hair and their choice without any pressure to change it. Now, I know on LHCF, there is no pressure for anyone to change their hair, but most hair boards geared toward black women do have that vibe. It's one thing if a black woman wants to relax on her own, but if she wants to stay natural and is having trouble, it's good that Nappturality encourages her to stay natural instead of posting threads saying, "Get a perm."

What's my point? My point is that Nappturality's mission statement doesn't bother me at all because the founder doesn't believe that chemicals are necessary. She has every right to think that, and shape her board's mission that way, just like LHCF has the right to focus on long hair (Nappturality doesn't) and NC can promote curls (Nappturality doesn't). 

Women who are natural and want to stay that way usually don't think there are benefits to using a chemical... for themselves. I think that's all that statement is saying, not making a generalization of all people. 

I do think you should check out the site and read some of the threads to see how much the hair thing has affected some women though... I mean, even I was surprised after reading Nappturality to see how deep it was for some people. They have told some stories about their treatment in society that have made my mouth drop. It's just interesting to read.

Oh and as for the leprosy thing... I've never heard that. The only supposed racial curse I've heard of from the Bible is the curse on Ham for not covering up his father Noah when he was naked and drunk. Supposedly Ham was black and that's why "blacks" were cursed. Of course, the only people I hear making this argument are racists, so go figure.


----------



## Hidden_Angel (Jan 30, 2007)

nappywomyn said:
			
		

> I've heard that - and I thought it was bullcrap then, and I think it's bullcrap now.  And of course, ya'll know how I feel about the idea that kinky hair is a curse.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
OMG so well said.. WELL SAID! I LOVE IT!


----------



## Enchantmt (Jan 30, 2007)

Bunny77 said:
			
		

> The only supposed racial curse I've heard of from the Bible is the curse on Ham for not covering up his father Noah when he was naked and drunk. Supposedly Ham was black and that's why "blacks" were cursed. Of course, the only people I hear making this argument are racists, so go figure.



Just to clarify for folx who may be reading but not commenting, that curse was used erroneously to keep blacks in slavery. The curse was given and fulfilled in biblical times.


----------



## Bunny77 (Jan 30, 2007)

kally said:
			
		

> I would like to say thank you so much to all  who support me and understand where I am coming from.
> 
> For those who do not. I still thank you for your responses. It is all still helpful info to me. I really do not see it as casting stones at me, but only trying to help me see how you view it.
> 
> ...



You're gonna be fine.  

I know this sounds really silly, but this is what therapists suggest... the minute you start having a negative thought about your hair, think of something positive, EVEN IF you don't believe it yet or aren't convinced that it's true.

So if your hair is hard to do one day and you start thinking, "I hate this hair!" instead, say, "Okay, maybe I need to try something different because my hair shouldn't be hard to do." 

If you are questioning God about why our hair is the way it is, flip it and say, "You know, our hair really is versatile. I saw a sista with long healthy hair relaxed today on LHCF and another with a big ole puff that looked so thick and strong. Our hair is great!"

And we won't ever know in this life what God's plan was for our hair, but since this is what we have now, let's embrace it. Or at least make peace with it... cause as JewelleNY said, maybe you'll get to heaven and see Jesus with a big ole fro.     (Or at least some curls!)

Good luck to ya.


----------



## Poobity (Jan 30, 2007)

nappywomyn said:
			
		

> HELLO!!! See - this, RIGHT here - is what I'm talking about. It seems like every conversation about black folx hair, AMONG black people, always ends up talking bout white folx/other races.
> 
> Nah, nah. We need to be honest, and we need to own up, and maybe EVERY SINGLE SISTER here relaxes her hair because she prefers the ease of management - but we ALL know that a LOT of black folx do NOT perm their hair because 'it's easier' to manage. A LOT of black women perm their hair because they don't KNOW any better. A LOT of black women perm their hair because they believe they don't HAVE any other 'acceptable' choice if they want a man/job/to be admired as beautiful. A LOT of black women perm their hair because they think their hair is wrong/ugly/shameful.
> And can't NOBODY here say that isn't true. And I can't say that EVERY woman who perms believes this - but I'd betcha in a random poll of random black women (not the cream of the crop who hang out and educate themselves on hair boards)  there would be more women who HONESTLY dislike their NATURAL hair and perm to hide the shame of not being born with straight hair than there are women who perm 'just to make it easier to 'manage'.
> ...



Wow....


----------



## StrawberryQueen (Jan 30, 2007)

Hidden_Angel said:
			
		

> OMG so well said.. WELL SAID! I LOVE IT!


She's on point, ain't she?    Well said Nappywomyn!


----------



## Bunny77 (Jan 30, 2007)

So I decided to do some Google searching... here's a great blog article I found in which a black man said that his young daughter already began suffering from low self-esteem because of her black features... like her hair in particular.  

Luckily, someone saved the day....

http://www.netweed.com/lyricalswords/2006/07/black-hair-matrix-how-jada-pinkett.html

The Black Hair Matrix: How Jada Pinkett-Smith Saved My Daughters Self Esteem 


So, as many of you know I have a daughter and a son. My daughter, is quite beautiful, despite my influence on her looks.

Like most fathers I want my daughter to be a physically, mentally and spiritually secure woman. But I know the America works hard to break the psyche of the Black woman of America- on all fronts.

It begins with an indoctrination about what beauty is. The American media machine has Black women questioning their own beauty before they are even aware of whats happening...This really applies to all non-White females. But in no time America has Black women questioning the breadth and scope of their internal and external beauty.

My daughter, like many American girls is beaten over the head with the Disney propaganda (and other cartoons) that show all kinds of White women as royalty. But they are ALL White. Cinderella, the red head from the Mermaid joint- all that. But no Black women. Brandy does not count. They never use her in the Disney Pantheon of princess brides. Why is it Disney has never been able to show a beautiful young African princess?

Anyhoo, we normally have baby girl rockin' afro puffs (thanks Rage), or some braid pattern.

About 2 years ago, my wife, seeing Jada Pinkett-Smiths hair on The Matrix (as the character Niobi) did my daughters hair in the same fashion.

Everbody thought it was pretty lovely.

But this was BEFORE my daughter had been effected by the Disney Matrix of long flowing European hair values.

About 3 months ago ( 2 years afterthe first time moms did it), my wife did baby girls hair like that again.

Of course, she could not see her hair as it was being done. Once it was finished she raced back to look in the mirror.

She came out crying....So sad....Shes told my wife her hair was ugly....She almost acted as if my wife was trying to humiliate her by not giving her hair like the Little Mermaid. This was very tough to watch.

My wife and I were both shocked and hurt.

She reached at her hair to undo it and I told her not to. I told her it was beautiful and that Black women have different hair that is unique. I told her she was not supposed to look like Cinderella. That Black women wear their hair in all kinds of styles. None of this made an impact. She wanted out of that hair ASAP. Her brother told her she looked great (a hard feat. for any brother to do!!). Shes was not having it.

I got on the internet and I said "Do you know why I love seeing your hair like that?"

She shook her head in silence through the tears.

I said, "Because you look like that pretty lady from the Matrix."

Now, my son and baby girl LOVES him some Matrix. Although clearly neither of them get the plot, to watch people fly through the air and kick people in the chest makes for good film watching!!

The topic of what is and is not appropriate for kids to watch is another post...I'm bad about some of what I let them see...

Anyway as she cried with her head in her hands I was on Google looking for Matrix photos.

BAM!! Found Jada Pinkett-Smith strapped with gats looking all ladyfied and serious.

I sat her on my lap and I said "See baby, you are beautiful, like this lady in the Matrix. You are strong and smart and beautiful- like she is. So, when Mommy made your hair like this is was because you remind us of her....

All of a sudden you saw her face like, change on an molecular level. Her self confidence was at a new level. She got off my lap, went back to look at herself- and it was quiet back there.

I sat in silence totally excited, in hope of me making my point- but still scared.

Then I heard her going through her brothers stuff...Which is a family issues that she needs to chill on...But at this point no one had time to argue.

She came down the hall with a water gun taking the same pose a Niobi in the photo and said "FREEZE!! You are under arrest. This is the matrix!". We all laughed. She immediately began to chase her brother through the house.

Her smile was bright and full again. Her laughter was real. My baby girl was back. She was back because we live in an era where a Black woman can wear her hair in a way unique to her people and her style.

I just wanted to thank Jada Pinkett-Smith for saving my daughters self esteem. How many Black women in America never had a popular Black woman out there to raise their self esteem? How many women have fallen for the Black hair matrix? How many young Black girls destroyed themselves inside and out in pursuit of "the bluest eye"? All young minority women deserve to be internally enriched with images of beauty.

Nothing myself, or my wife might have said that day had the impact of my baby seeing Jada powerful and strong. So, thank you Jada. For real.


----------



## Enchantmt (Jan 30, 2007)

Wow Bunny. Thanks for finding that. That is a great story. It reinforces the results of the doll experiments, children have these mindsets at very young ages, and it is a thought pattern they LEARNED from someone.


----------



## navsegda (Jan 30, 2007)

Bunny77 said:
			
		

> * Edit:  I am cutting out some of what you have said because I have exceeded the character limit.*
> 
> Doesn't seem fair to me... I not only have to be criticized for my choice (and natural women are going to get FAR more criticism than relaxed/pressed women -- I've never heard anyone telling a relaxed woman that she won't get a job/man/respect with her hair) but then I can't dare say anything "positive" about loving one's natural texture because then I'm not "accepting" their choice. Sounds like a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation to me...
> 
> As long as I'm not questioning one's blackness or criticizing the person, I don't see what's wrong with telling a frustrated black woman to start loving and accepting her hair (cause no matter how you choose to wear it, you have to accept it's advantages and limitations) and I will continue to do so IF we are having a discussion about hair. Being understanding and accepting of one's choice doesn't mean I have to hear whining and moaning all the darn time without saying something in response.


If someone is being negative to you, then you have every right to be pushy back.  When I gave my examples of telling someone that they should love their hair yada yada and being insulting, I meant if you said it in a NEGATIVE manner when they had not provoked you yet.  But if someone just simply makes a statement about not liking her texture and doesn't whine or alienate you because of your opinion, if you _rudely _tell her she has to love her hair, then you are certainly out of line.

Good example:

Girl:  "Man, my natural hair is so difficult.  I hate it."
You:  "Girl, you should love your hair.  It's beautiful.  Have you tried X to make it more manageable?"

Bad example:

Girl:  "Man, my natural hair is so difficult.  I hate it."
You:  "OMG, YOU SHOULD LOVE YOUR HAIR.  WHAT GOD GAVE US IS BEAUTIFUL AND YOU NEED TO STOP CONFORMING TO WHITE BEAUTY STANDARDS.  THIS IS SAD.  YOU ARE REJECTING YOUR BLACKNESS."

Good example:

Girl:  "Man, my natural hair is difficult.  I hate it."
You:  "Girl, you should love your hair.  It's beautiful.  Have you tried X to make it more manageable?"
Girl:  "No, seriously I told you that I can't deal with this crap on my head.  Don't you ever get tired of yours?  I don't see how you can take it."
You:  "No, I don't get tired of my natural texture because I have learned to work with it.  There are really some great products that may help."
Girl:  "Well, I'm sure there ain't no product out there to help me deal with this mess.  You may have that good hair so that's probably why it works for you.  Besides, don't you ever wanna see how your hair looks straight?  I think it looks best that way"
You:  "I don't freaking have that 'good' hair and you should not try to force your beauty standards on me.  You could really manage your hair if you actually tried instead of sitting there whining about how your hair is difficult.  It is difficult because you make it that way and you refuse to listen.  Just because my hair is not freaking straight does not mean it does not look good.  I think my style looks best because I am embracing my black beauty."

In the last one, you had every right to be angry because she is not only whining but trying to force her opinion on you.

There is a right and a wrong way to go about things.  Sometimes people automatically get offended and lash out when there was no need for it in the first place.  Not everything is a threat or attack but sometimes there is blatant rudeness and I do not fault you for responding accordingly.



			
				Bunny77 said:
			
		

> It may not be the majority, but it is a LOT of people. I grew up in a large majority black city and talk about hair texture and skin color happened ALL THE DANGON TIME, so that's how most of us on this board "know" what A LOT of people are thinking.
> 
> Now, I don't know where you grew up and maybe you didn't have this experience... if so, then great... but I guess what is kinda sorta bugging me about these comments is that they seem to be ignoring a reality that isn't exactly hard to put a finger on. If you were born and raised in the USA and spent a lot of time around black people, then you had to have heard negative talk about hair... if not your own hair, other people's hair. And skin color as well. I don't even think you can call it an assumption because it is as common as the sun rising and setting every day in the lives of most people who grew up in majority black areas in the USA. Can I say it's a majority? No. Can I say it's a lot? Heck yeah, and I'll say it all day long!


Most of my life, I grew up around a lot of black people even though my school was majority white (my neighborhood and the surrounding ones were all black).  I grew up in the South of course.  Yeah, I heard negative talk about hair (sometimes my own) by some of those black people.   I would hear comments like "Girl, your hair is nappy," or "Girl, my hair is nappy," and then if the comments were directed toward you they would say they were making a simple observation and they didn't mean to be insulting.  Now can I say that they personally had self esteem problems and this is why they said it?  No.  They may have had the problem or they may just have thought they weren't being insulting, I do not know for certain.  But most of the time, the ones who relaxed were making fun of white people or their hair in some way and if someone who was still natural asked them if they were trying to be white, they'd go off saying all these crazy, negative things about white people.  Odd, I grew up around several black people who didn't seem to like whites and voiced their opinion as such, but they relaxed.  Now does this mean they were REALLY envious deep down of white hair?  Maybe.  Maybe not. I cannot say for sure that this was some type of underlying mechanism of  self-hatred or projection because they seemed to love the way they could style their hair but didn't think they were being like whites at all.  If I asked some of them why they were relaxed, they would go on and on about how nice their hair looked and how they could do all these different styles because of it and having their hair straight (they would go through all the black hair magazines and pick out the latest one).  Lots of them also talked about how they could wash their hair and then it wouldn't hurt trying to comb it afterwards.

The thing I hate the most is when someone tries to definitely guess WITHOUT BEING TOLD what is going on inside someone else's head.  Now, if you were around all these women and they specifically told you or you overhead them saying things about their hair, then you can you know a lot of people who have problems with black hair.  However, to say something is a reality when you have no proof otherwise based on your own assumptions is what causes problems.  No one likes being told what they think especially if you are wayyyyyyy off the mark.



			
				bunny77 said:
			
		

> Again, if you grew up differently, then I understand why you feel the way you do. But if you grew up in a place like Detroit, where even today I can go for days without seeing a natural-haired black woman in a city of 900,000 people (and 70% of those are black), or seeing beauty salons on every corner in every neighborhood and yet so far I have only found TWO that can do natural hair outside of braids....then you wouldn't say it's an assumption...
> 
> By the way, I am interested in knowing your background, because maybe I could understand more why you believe the way you do.


What do you mean understand why I believe the way I do?  What are you thinking I believe?  I do not believe that this isn't a problem for some people, I believe in certainty.  I do not believe in broad generalizations made about what black people may or may not think about their hair just because they wear their hair a certain way unless of course you have heard many of them voice their own opinions about why they relax or why they don't like their natural texture (if of course they tell you they do not).  Lots of people make assumptions but if you can't back them up, it makes you look like a fool.  You, on the other hand, seem to have actually HEARD a lot of black people voice disgust over their hair and the reasons why, so you have more ground to stand on than someone who for instance sees that the majority of women in an area relaxes their hair and thus makes the assumption also that all these women have self-esteem problems and are ashamed of their true black heritage as a result.

So long story short:  I agree there is a problem for several people.  What I don't agree with is that several people want to diagnose the root of the problem as X, Y, or Z with no proof.  Now we can guess and speculate about what is the exact reason(s) for the root of the problem all we want, but unless someone tells us otherwise or we overhear it, then we really cannot jump to unfounded conclusions about why people actually do the things they do.


----------



## navsegda (Jan 30, 2007)

Jessy55 said:
			
		

> Where I am now?  I love my natural hair, but it does not define me.  I think natural hair is beautiful, and I think that relaxed and pressed and texturized hair are also beautiful.  I could slap a perm now if I so desire.  I refuse to be defined by something that's growing out of my scalp.



This statement is beautiful.


----------



## sweetwhispers (Jan 30, 2007)

firecracker said:
			
		

> _Hey sweetwhispers the thing is some women/people really do share these feelings. Disturbing, bonker or whatever one may think._
> 
> _I think they need to talk and have discussions about it even if we don't see, feel or share their feelings on their perceived hair challenges. _
> 
> _Stylish/attractive hair really can make a woman feel fierce on her worst day but the true fierceness starts within. Short, long, straight, wavy or nappy like my kunta kente bush__ you gotta feel good about self first and foremost. Hell I could imagine what a cancer victim goes through during chemo no matter how high the self esteem.  _


 
To LocksofLuv with all  respect  too- Whatever 
Firecracker this thread has really opened my eyes. I will pray for many people on this thread.


----------



## kally (Jan 30, 2007)

Wow. Bunny that is powerful and it is extremely important that a AA father tell his daughter that she is beautiful. As we all know what your parents say to you have a powerful impact with how you view yourself and gives you strength to face the world.

I read that bawling because I understand what that little girl went through. I use to run thru the house with shirts on my head draping it like it was hair when I was little.My family still teases me about it to this day. I admit I was one of those little girls who only wanted white dolls, because of the hair.  I saw no powerful black women grewing up that was glorified. 

Not only do mother have to instill this knowledge into their daughters, It is even more important that a father does it. I am sorry many women care how men view them. And the father is the first one they who they really want to please.


----------



## chocolatesis (Jan 30, 2007)

LocksOfLuV said:
			
		

> I think this is a good hair discussion topic and I hope others chime in.
> 
> I was watching the discovery channel one day and it was talking about how different "races" came about. Basicly life began in Africa, but diff. people migrated to diff. areas which had some effect on our features.
> 
> ...


 
I'm so glad I'm not the only one who believes this. I've always wondered why our hair is so different from everyone else's. I came to the realization that it had to be a result of the climate Africans lived in. I know that our bodies are designed to constantly try to adapt to our environment, in other words make us more comfortable in our environment. But then I was stumped because other dark skinned people, like East Indians, don't have coily hair. 
Then I realized that what makes our hair coily, or different from other hair types, is it's level of moisture. The hair becomes coily because it's dry, and the level of dryness determines how loose the coil/curl is. The body produces less moisture in the hair because the climate in most places in Africa is so humid, or wet, so the body produces less moisture as a way of keeping us comfortable in that climate. In general, Africans in East Africa (Ethiopia, Somalia), where the climate is not so humid, have hair that is not quite as dry as that of west Africans, where the climate is more humid. 

I think the only reason we have to "struggle" so much with out hair is because we for most part tend to try to manipulate our hair into styles that are not really practical for our texture. As someone previously posted, imagine the "struggle" women with straight hair would go through trying to style their hair in an afro everyday. That being said, I don't think anything is wrong with trying to manipulate your hair into a style that's not practical for your hair texture, you just have to remember that it won't be easy. And I don't think that we should beat ourselves up over wanting to grow our hair long. People all over the world have been manipulating their bodies to get a desired result since the beginning of time. In China, they used to bind little girls' feet so they wouldn't grow large and the women would have small, feminine feet.  At least with us, it's just hair. 

Sorry this is so long--I just had to get it all out!


----------



## kally (Jan 30, 2007)

For a long time, I never wanted a daughter, because I did not want to pass the hair trait on to her.


----------



## navsegda (Jan 30, 2007)

kally said:
			
		

> * I use to run thru the house with shirts on my head draping it like it was hair when I was little.*My family still teases me about it to this day. I admit I was one of those little girls who only wanted white dolls, because of the hair.  I saw no powerful black women grewing up that was glorified.



I did this too when I was really little:  but the reason why is because both my mother and grandmother (her mother) had waist length gorgeous hair and I admired and looked up to them.  I saw that as a beauty that I wanted to have for myself and my hair didn't start getting longer until I was a little older.  I wanted to be like them, but I didn't cry because my hair wasn't long.  The only time I cried is when I was getting my hair washed and detangled hahaha.  I also wanted to wear lipstick and have boobs because the women in my family did LOL.  I think I wanted to be grown way too fast.  I once told the UPS man that I was a grown woman (and I had just turned 5).  

About the dolls, I didn't care about color as long as she was pretty.  I had black and white dolls and I loved doing their hair accordingly.  Do you remember those Barbie styling heads?  I would take the white and black ones to my sink and "wash" their hair and then style it afterwards.


----------



## Bunny77 (Jan 30, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> What do you mean understand why I believe the way I do?  What are you thinking I believe?  I do not believe that this isn't a problem for some people, I believe in certainty.  I do not believe in broad generalizations made about what black people may or may not think about their hair just because they wear their hair a certain way unless of course you have heard many of them voice their own opinions about why they relax or why they don't like their natural texture (if of course they tell you they do not).  Lots of people make assumptions but if you can't back them up, it makes you look like a fool.  You, on the other hand, seem to have actually HEARD a lot of black people voice disgust over their hair and the reasons why, so you have more ground to stand on than someone who for instance sees that the majority of women in an area relaxes their hair and thus makes the assumption also that all these women have self-esteem problems and are ashamed of their true black heritage as a result.
> 
> So long story short:  I agree there is a problem for several people.  What I don't agree with is that several people want to diagnose the root of the problem as X, Y, or Z with no proof.  Now we can guess and speculate about what is the exact reason(s) for the root of the problem all we want, but unless someone tells us otherwise or we overhear it, then we really cannot jump to unfounded conclusions about why people actually do the things they do.



Okay, I understand what you're getting at. The reason I seemed a little puzzled about some of your statements is because you seemed to express that you'd never heard any black woman make a negative statement about her hair, which I do find hard to believe (just in general) because they seem to be everywhere I look. And even if I haven't heard them firsthand, any article I read about black women and beauty always mentions something about how many black women learned as young girls that their hair was "bad."

Now, about the folks you mentioned who said, "Girl, my/your hair is nappy..." Of course I wasn't there and don't know where that thought was coming from, but usually, when I hear black folks saying that, it's not positive at all. The only positive place I've heard the word nappy is on Nappturality or at natural hair gatherings. So right there, that tells me though that folks have negative beliefs about their hair or about others' hair -- and sure, they have the right to feel that way, but again, back to the initial point, why DO they feel that way? 

And regarding self-esteem... I don't think you have to be close to depression or suicide about your hair for there to be an issue. And maybe this is where you and I simply have different fundamental beliefs and we'll just agree to disagree.... I think that when the majority of people in a certain group dislike something that is a normal part of them, then there is a problem and a sign of something deeper. I personally don't think that can be denied by saying, "We don't know what's going on in their heads," because that's a whole lot of black heads that seem to have the same dislike for their hair.

It doesn't mean they're ashamed to be black and it doesn't mean they hate their hair... but more often than not, it does mean that they have internalized that their hair leaves something to be desired. 

Growing up, I didn't hear bad things about my hair in my own household and I never grew up hating my natural hair or even disliking it. Like you, I liked natural hair on other people. But, based on the hair care I had as a child and the look I saw on other people, I grew to believe that the best way to have one's hair was straight, unless you were some super-duper black militant (which I'm not.)

An ex-boyfriend of mine said once that I should go natural. I laughed and said that it just wouldn't work, but thanks for the suggestion. He said that he thought I'd look cute that way... again, I laughed and said no thanks and that he just didn't know how hard it would be for me to do my hair and keep it from frizzing up and looking nice.

The thing is, what did I even know about natural hair? Nothing! So how could I already say that it wasn't an option if I hadn't gotten messages throughout my life that it wasn't something that "normal" black women did?

Yet I was always mad at my hair because it never looked how I wanted it to look and it broke off and all of that... but still, that was better in my mind than at least trying the natural option.

So no, I never had low self-esteem based on my hair, but I did think that natural really wasn't acceptable for anyone but those militant types, as I mentioned. I don't think that type of thinking is cool... and I do think that way too many black women DO feel this way, even if they have high self-esteem... thus the "Girl, your hair/my hair is so nappppppppppppy," comments.

Last thing... if you Google "black women" and "hair," you will get 1,160,000 hits. That's a lot of hits for such a specialized topic, which tells me something right there. There are academic papers, books, websites and all sorts of stuff on this topic... which again, tells you something if you read between the lines.

So with allllll of that said.... I don't think anyone is in danger of looking like a fool with an assumption or is off on our speculation about many black women's thinking about hair... the proof is right there in front of our eyes if we really want to see it. Heck, it's smacking us in the face all the time... there's really not much "guessing" to be done about how many black women feel. I also don't think this issue is a case of making broad generalizations either.

I know you may disagree and that's fine, but that's my belief (which I think is a well-founded and documented one) and I'm sticking to it!


----------



## Bunny77 (Jan 30, 2007)

Last article, and then I'm off to lunch! Gonna get me some Indian food... maybe then I'll end up with Indian hair! (just kidding, just kidding!!!  )

Oh, and as someone mentioned, I loved playing with Barbie dolls. I had white and black ones and luckily, I liked them all. I wanted to have a United Nations Barbie family so one day I'd ask for a black Barbie, another day a white Barbie and I even had a Japanese Barbie... as long as parents insist that all are beautiful, then I think playing with non-black dolls is fine. But that's a whole 'nother topic.

Been great chatting with all of you!

http://www.southcoasttoday.com/topics/april04/story10.htm


Beauty lives across a wide spectrum 
By KELLY STARLING-LYONS, Raleigh News & Observer

--> 
 In some ways, it was silly what the girl said. But years later, Angela Coleman still remembers pieces of the insult her hair inspired one day. 
"It was something about peas and carrots and referred to my kitchen," she said. 
It sounds like a senseless remark. But even as a child, Coleman knew different. The term "kitchen" was said to ridicule the thick curls at the nape of her neck. 
Though she didn't understand the history, she knew that the term had power. Back in her day, when one pointed out the physical attributes associated with another person's black heritage, like having textured hair or an ebony complexion, that meant you wanted a fight. The irony was that her tormenter was African-American, too. Though Coleman grew up in a home that celebrated black beauty, she struck the girl in anger anyway. 
Words like "kitchen" attacked the self-esteem of black girls, dredging up insecurities instilled more than a century before through the institution of slavery. African women were ridiculed for being dark, for having hair that was different in an American culture that lauded whiteness as the ideal. Or they were slammed for being light, for an alignment with a perceived enemy and maybe thinking themselves better because of it. That the knocks were internalized by generations of African-American girls, passed down and reinforced by images in the popular media added to the pain. 
"I think all kids struggle with issues related to how they look," said Coleman, now 33, "and hope for other people to offer acceptance." 
These days, working with girls in her nonprofit organization Sisterhood Agenda, in Durham, N.C., Coleman is hoping to create a different legacy. Rather than using their heritage as a tool to separate, she is teaching girls that the spectrum of black beauty is something to affirm. 
The daughter of hardworking, middle-class parents who migrated from the South, Coleman grew up in Newark, N.J. Artwork depicting black life decorated her home. She played with dolls of all races. Her father shared his pride at being black at every opportunity. Coleman soaked in his words. 
"He helped to influence me," she said. "I always maintained a high level of self-esteem." 
Some of her classmates weren't so lucky. She heard some girls say they wished they were lighter. Others referred to straight or wavy hair as good and kinky hair as bad. 
Coleman said she bought into notions about hair, too. In sixth grade, she asked her mother for a relaxer to chemically straighten her hair. She got one, despite her father's objections, only because she loved to swim in the summer and it made managing her hair easier. 
It wasn't until attending Princeton, where Coleman majored in psychology and African-American studies, that she had an awakening. Coleman began exploring the self-image of black girls and women through doll studies and learning the origin of the beauty standards and negative connotations of blackness used to oppress and shame. 
She realized that some African-Americans, though emancipated in body, had absorbed negative comments and were keeping their minds enslaved, she said. Through accepting ideas that straight hair and light skin were the only models of attractiveness, they were tearing down themselves and discounting the range of their beauty. Coleman sheared her long, relaxed hair and sported a short natural. She watched others grow into cultural pride around her, too. Coleman felt free. 
About 10 years ago, Coleman moved to Durham and founded the Sisterhood Agenda. 
Girls who turn on the TV today or flip through magazines can find more diverse images of black women. But often those dark-skinned models, she said, are portrayed having long hair or light eyes, as if those qualities alone validate them. 
A group of teens who graduated from her "A Journey Toward Womanhood" program met recently at the Durham house that headquarters Sisterhood Agenda. In a sunny lobby adorned with African decor, they shared what they learned. 
Ashlee Hopkins said that she watches TV now with a critical eye. She has noticed that music videos often feature black women with lighter complexions rather than darker ones. She would like to see more skin commercials that showcase black women of all shades. When Ashlee, 15, hears girls at school talk about good hair and bad hair, she knows different. 
Jaelana Hall, 15, said that when she was younger, kids looked at the thick texture of her pigtails and the coffee color of her skin and poked fun. "They said, 'You're ugly,' " she said. "'You have nappy hair.' I used to take it kind of bad." Most of her tormenters had the same color skin she did. 
Through the Sisterhood Agenda, Jaelana said that she has learned that there's not one standard of beauty. It's something that exists in every person, in every race, in her.


----------



## JustKiya (Jan 30, 2007)

kally said:
			
		

> For a long time, I never wanted a daughter, because I did not want to pass the hair trait on to her.


 
*tears and hugs* I'm sorry ma.....thas hard....


----------



## chocolatesis (Jan 30, 2007)

Bunny77 said:
			
		

> You're gonna be fine.
> 
> I know this sounds really silly, but this is what therapists suggest... the minute you start having a negative thought about your hair, think of something positive, EVEN IF you don't believe it yet or aren't convinced that it's true.
> 
> ...


 
I don't think this is silly at all. It's the reason I primarily wear my hair in a ponytail. I realized that if I want to wear my hair in a way that "goes against the grain" so to speak, then I have to make adustments. Wearing it out everyday just doesn't work for me. So I primarily wear it in a braided ponytail or a braid-out ponytail, and wear it out now and then when I feel like it. But now, I actually prefer to wear my hair in ponytails.


----------



## JustKiya (Jan 30, 2007)

Bunny77 said:
			
		

> You're gonna be fine.
> 
> I know this sounds really silly, but this is what therapists suggest... the minute you start having a negative thought about your hair, think of something positive, EVEN IF you don't believe it yet or aren't convinced that it's true.
> 
> ...


 
And see - that right there is the thing. A lot of folx wouldn't even CONSIDER thinking that, because well 'everyone' knows that unless you have 'good' hair, nappy hair is SOOOOO HARD to deal with. 

Just like a lot of US - before we came onto this site, wouldn't even have CONSIDERED the possibility that we could just MAYBE grow hair down to our behinds - because 'black hair doesn't grow'!!! 

I really think the bottom line is education. If my hair could TAKE a perm and not make me look like a wet cat, I would most likely be permed RIGHT NOW - because I wasn't educated/aware of my options - AND I would be  one of the MAIN ones saying that I permed my hair because my natural hair was too hard to deal with. And sadly enough, over the years, the pool of knowledge about how to style, clean, comb, grow and manage relaxed black hair is MUCH bigger than that of how to do the same with natural black hair. And regretfully, the slightly hardcore stance of some natural websites can be rather offputting, rather than immeadiately educating. Just think - even in BEAUTY SCHOOL - they don't teach people how to deal with NATURAL black hair. I mean - damn. You go to school to learn about hair, and totally IGNORE a whole segment of the population? 

If there was as much info on ways to deal with natural hair, and as many stars rocking natural styles, and as many magazines profiling natural styles as there are ones for straight hair - it would be a whole nother ballgame. But - ya know, there's NEVER good money in keeping things natural, because it's usually the simplest way to be. 

Not to call anyone out (SERIOUSLY) but I challenge you to add up how much money you spend a year on keeping your hair straight. Whether you press it (thermal protectors, pressing combs, flat irons, etc), relax it (scalp basers, neutralizing shampoos, relaxer, protien to repair, etc) weave it up (ya'll know what all goes into that) or wig it out (same there) - and then think about how much LESS stuff you would be using if you managed your natural hair. 

I betcha you could go on vacation with the money you save - and Dark & Lovely, Clariol, Bronner Brothers, Pantene, Paul Mitchell, Motions, Sallys, and a WHOLE bunch of BSS's are QUITE thrilled that you aren't going on vacation.


----------



## Mahalialee4 (Jan 30, 2007)

Navsegda: 

With all due respect: As one of the people who wants to get into the xyz and the roots with NO PROOF according to you, I trully see where you are coming from:  You are the proof needer.  No problem except let's make it fair. Let's deal with PROOF because I believe everyone should have an equal opportunity to truly be heard. 

So " the need for proof is your issue with what is being said"???? 
Then let me be the first to offer you the opportunity to settle your need for proving things. In spite of the facts that: 
The proof is in the literature written by the white scientists to "prove that blacks are inferior" which was often quoted in schools and universities!
The proof is in those "who have not been spared" your one world view or not been spared the trauma of racism in so many of its subtle or blatant forms. 

 I believe we need to hear everyone: You are presenting yourself as needing proof and numbers and specifics. So here is the only logical, empowering way for this to be settled for you so here it is: 

#1.   "How many people have you interviewed any or all of these people whom you claim are not having a problem and are making it up to be defending your "isolated" views that this has not happened, is not happening and that there is 'no proof'?  What did they say? Was this a door to door interview or did you mail out questionnaires or do a par based survey? These methods may be of benefit to you.


# 2. We need to assume that you are being honest and that we are not. We also need to assume that you have PROOF  to back up your statements.

Where is your proof?  Bring forth your witnesses and documentation. Make sure they are African Americans and really exist. Make sure that you interview every black and white person in America. You will of course need to have these documented and notarized. To be totally fair you have to interview everybody to prove that it is TOTALLY ACCURATE.
#3.  When can we expect your report?    and of course it will have to be well referenced and supported by ethical scientific and legally relevant documentation.  We will need quotes: 

The fact is, we do not have to PROVE ANYTHING to you. If we know it, researched it and are aware of it, we will work our experiences out and eventually come to a deeper understanding of ourselves. Obviously this does not apply to you even though you obviously speak for ALL of us AND ALL of the white people in the world.

But I repeat....if Proof is your major issue: Bring forth your proof to us that you have the proof that what is being said on this forum is "made up", that there is no racist material in writing and on the internet, and that thousands have not been impacted by racism and suffer self esteem issues. Trust me, we will examine ALL your proof, because we are very discerning and thinking ladies and once you have proved to all of us that you are right, we will acknowledge that we are all wrong and delusional.  I respectfully await your proof and look forward to considering everything you say as long as you stick with FACTS. None of would want to "look like fools" as you so delicately put it.
bonjour


----------



## Mahalialee4 (Jan 30, 2007)

Interestingly enough, combing through my hair is not an issue for me even though it is natural. For a long time being fine textured and fragile was. I am a licensed hair stylist and a natural hair researcher because  hair is a passion of mine. I still do consulting on damaged hair and natural hair. I am also a writer, which involves an intense amount of accurate research. My background is business, and social sciences as well. (college and university) Of course social sciences involves a lot of history and often much research. Many of you well educated ladies know all this. My point is: There are many well educated women on this forum, well informed, as well.  So I recognize the audience or context within which I am sharing my views. I really appreciate the honest integrity of the ladies who have not lost touch with their personal and social awareness. We all recognize that hair is not what we think do and say 24-7, for most of us, it is just on this forum, so it is wonderful to share the depths of our awareness in empathy and honesty on this forum.   I think that this is a very enlightening thread. 

Kally, thank you again. (hugs and more hugs)

bonjour


----------



## Mahalialee4 (Jan 30, 2007)

Bunny77 said:
			
		

> I'm an active member of three hair sites... this one, Nappturality and Naturallycurly. I get different information and fellowship from all three and I like them all... and I think there's a place for all of them.
> 
> I like this site because I am someone who loves long hair and I like being on a site in which that goal is promoted. I like seeing pictures of long hair too... makes me happy to see black women defying a conventional idea that our hair can't grow.
> 
> ...



I am a member of Nappturality as well and several other hair boards. loved your post


----------



## Bunny77 (Jan 30, 2007)

nappywomyn said:
			
		

> Just think - even in BEAUTY SCHOOL - they don't teach people how to deal with NATURAL black hair. I mean - damn. You go to school to learn about hair, and totally IGNORE a whole segment of the population?



Ooh, let me tell you about this!!!

As I mentioned before, I live in Detroit (well, now I'm 80 miles outside of the city, but I grew up in the city). Detroit has almost a million people and 70% are black. That's not counting the suburbs.

So you've got about a million black people in a major city with beauty shops on every corner. A few years after starting my transition, I decided I wanted to get my hair done in a salon... yes, I can do my own hair, but hey, don't I deserve pampering sometime too?  

All I wanted was a freeform curly cut and style. No braids, no locs, none of that (btw, those are fine, just not what I wanted)... I called tons of places and asked for recommendations and no one could give me the name of a stylist.

If I lived in flippin' Wyoming, then I could understand... but I live in a city with a million black people and I have to search for a natural stylist like a needle in a haystack???

I found one black stylist who did the hair of all the celebrities in town (newscasters, Pistons wives, etc.), so I called her salon and told the receptionist what I wanted. This woman, who was white said, "Oh yeah, So-and-so is great and does all types of hair. She can put something on it to soften it up and it will be great."

UH, DID I ASK FOR A CHEMICAL??? I SAID I NEEDED SOMEONE WHO COULD STYLE AND CUT NATURAL HAIR!!

Well I went and as soon as the woman saw me, she apologized and said she didn't do natural hair, but she could recommend a braider. ARGH!

Years later, I found a stylist in a university town who did natural hair (mostly black/white biracial students). This woman was Hispanic. In Florida, my stylists were white and Asian women who specialized in white people's curly hair and just used the same techniques.

So... my point is... why can't I find a black stylist in a black city who can do black hair in a natural state? Why is it that the only thing they can do is straighten it? And obviously, there's not much of a demand for them to learn natural styling because they would have done it already... meanwhile, I was giving the white and Asian folks my money cause they could do what I asked for... but I'd like to support a black business in my hometown. 

In the larger scheme of things, my "right" to be able to pick and choose the stylists I want is trivial, but again, this is another one of those instances in which you can look at and dismiss as nothing, or read between the lines and see that something pretty crappy is going on.


----------



## Mahalialee4 (Jan 30, 2007)

I would love to be able to go to a "black hair spa" that catered to all types and textures of hair and just get blessed out of my socks with pampering and gentle care and have a series of stylists that bend over backwards to bring out the maximum potential of what ever your hair texture.
Just simple washing, conditioning, steaming, and focusing on strengthening my hair....oh what a pleasant daydream.  I live in Canada and often we are way behind the times. If you are having problems finding a salon in Detroit, you need to pray for me!!!!  lolbonjour


----------



## JustKiya (Jan 30, 2007)

Mahalialee4 said:
			
		

> I would love to be able to go to a "black hair spa" that catered to all types and textures of hair and just get blessed out of my socks with pampering and gentle care and have a series of stylists that bend over backwards to bring out the maximum potential of what ever your hair texture.
> Just simple washing, conditioning, steaming, and focusing on strengthening my hair....oh what a pleasant daydream. I live in Canada and often we are way behind the times. If you are having problems finding a salon in Detroit, you need to pray for me!!!! lolbonjour


 

Ohhhweee!! How much would that ROCK??? Have a francise in the big black cities - LA, Detroit, Memphis, ATL, Baltimore, NYC, Chicago. They could have classes on how to cornroll. They could show folx how best to relax their hair without overprocessing. They would have every conditioner from Jamaican to Indian to Dominican on the shelves. The could do your hair, whether it was 4z or 1a - and treat it gently and lovingly. Have pictures of styles on every sort of hair. Have locticians and barbers and colorists - and the supreme focus would be healthy, stylish hair - no matter what texture you walked in (and out!) with. 



*sigh* Something else to add to my list of stuff to do when I win the lottery.


----------



## JustKiya (Jan 30, 2007)

Oooohhh!! 

I knew there was something else I wanted to speak on - the whole thing about babies hair/is our hair supposed to be like this/Africans being able to grow more/longer hair. 

I HONESTLY think that a LOT of it is our diets. You are what you eat, and I think that hair shows that a lot. I've talked to Indian women, who have commented on the HUGE difference in their hair (in a YEAR) between living in India vs. the US or Canada. It doesn't grow as fast, it breaks off more, it isn't as thick/full/shiny... 
But! Over here, the water has more chemicals in it, the food isn't as fresh or as wholesome, the soil has been stripped of all it's natural goodness (if you can even CALL the dirt that a lot of our food is grown in 'soil'), the air is full of chemicals, the meat is full of chemicals and hormones, etc, etc, etc. Unless you are eating a locally grown, totally organic, mostly raw, grassfed/free range meat containing diet - who KNOWS how many trace minerals we are missing out on?  

I think that is why so many of us have seen changes in our hair once we start taking supplements - because we are now supplying our body with the nutrients that it NEEDS and that our food is simply NOT providing. I also think it's a factor in why babies hair is so different - while they were in the womb, they got about the MOST perfect food possible....and it changes around six months or so? I wonder how many of those babies were BREASTFED (bestfed, as I like to call it) until they were six months and then stopped? 

*grins* Perhaps a slightly less volatile topic to speak on.....


----------



## navsegda (Jan 30, 2007)

Bunny77 said:
			
		

> Okay, I understand what you're getting at. The reason I seemed a little puzzled about some of your statements is because you seemed to express that you'd never heard any black woman make a negative statement about her hair


I definitely wasn't trying to express that I had never heard a black woman say something negative of her hair or others'.  This may be hard for some to believe, but you can say something negative in passing about something you dislike about yourself and it does NOT have to be a deeper, self esteem issue unless you really just cannot let it go.  You can look down and see a mole developing on your leg and say "Ugh, this is so ugly!  I hate this mole!" but then you can just accept that it's there to stay and not worry yourself with it again.  It doesn't mean that because you have said that you hate the mole that it's going to cause you personally to feel ugly or make you lose sleep at night.  But if you keep harping about it, then that's a different story.

What I was trying to get across was is that I may have heard women say negative things about their hair, but I do not know for certain why the _individuals_ are saying something negative unless they voice this somehow.  Is it related to race?  White beauty standards?  Self esteem?   The fact that they personally don't find something attractive?  A combination of all these factors?  Things really can be more complex than just writing it off as one simple issue. 

I'm a neuroscientist and I've examined several people in the past and read tons of articles (have even written my own) about why the _people I studied _or read about behave a certain way (then again, I have concrete evidence if it involves a certain area of the brain, what you do not have concrete evidence no matter how much research you've done is someone's exact THOUGHT processes unless they reveal them).  Does that mean because the majority of the people who I read about or studied who expressed feeling a certain way that this information dictates that you definitely do as well if you behave the same way they do?  Not necessarily.  It could be.  It could not be.  I wouldn't be able to make that assessment unless I talked to you and examined you myself.  Now you may talk to people who you feel have characteristics outlined in articles about hair and self esteem issues, but if they don't tell you for certain, then you can't write it off for sure as one way or another.  As a scientist, I will definitely agree that there are patterns of behavior but what this shows us is that there are only MANY people who fall under a certain category, it doesn't let us jump to the conclusion that it's the majority or ALL unless there have been further studies.

Also, what does "bad" from the article you are referring to mean?  Does it refer to management, look, length, race, improper way of handling it, etc?



			
				Bunny77 said:
			
		

> And regarding self-esteem... I don't think you have to be close to depression or suicide about your hair for there to be an issue.



Of course not.  But there are all sorts of things that bother us that really aren't that big of a deal unless we or someone else makes it into one. If everyone jumped on every little negative thing people said, then no one would have any freedom of speech and so many people would probably be really pissed off hahaha.

However, we need to use common sense and appropriate caution about HOW much of an issue something is.  I still hold on to the premise that unless someone is either 1. infringing upon your rights, 2. infringing upon someone else's, 3. going to harm herself (physically or emotionally), or 4. going to harm someone else then that does not mean that something _absolutely_ needs to be done or addressed.  Not everything warrants action.  Now it doesn't hurt to give encouragement or answer questions when asked, but sometimes unsolicited advice can be the worst thing ever.

Take for instance a negative comment made about Bush.  You can say "I hate Bush."  Does this mean that the police need to bust into your house and arrest you or you need to be given a speech on patriotism and respecting him as the leader of our country?  No.  Now if you say you hate Bush and then you proceed to make terroristic threats, we have a problem and the issue needs to be addressed.  



			
				Bunny77 said:
			
		

> sign of something deeper. I personally don't think that can be denied by saying, "We don't know what's going on in their heads," because that's a whole lot of black heads that seem to have the same dislike for their hair.
> 
> It doesn't mean they're ashamed to be black and it doesn't mean they hate their hair... but more often than not, it does mean that they have internalized that their hair leaves something to be desired.


Saying that you don't know what is going on in their heads isn't denying anything at all.  It's basically saying _the only thing you know *for certain*_.  I agree with you that this is sometimes the case (specific reasons for dislike of black hair) but this is not always the case.  You expressed sentiments earlier about your nose.  Does this mean it's a sign of something deeper that if I don't give you encouragement or address the issue with you that it is going to cause you problems later on?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  

As for something that can be desired, this isn't just true about ONLY hair.  Many people have so many things that they feel are left to be desired:  cars, clothes, levels of success, another child, a husband, a wife, etc.  I'm not denying that if you constantly make comments about how ugly your hair is that it's not an issue.  But sometimes things do not have to be anything internalized deeper or some type of self esteem problem, they are only an issue because we _make_ them an issue at a certain point.  You may not think anything negative about your natural texture at all until you have vast amounts of new growth and you are fighting with it.  Then you may say on a whim, "UGH I FREAKING HATE THIS NAPPY CRAP SO MUCH!"  Does this mean that you had some internalized hatred?  Not necessarily.  You had no problem with your natural texture until YOU started manipulating it in a harsh manner and thus, when you stop doing this, the sentiment may go away and when you find a solution you may say "MAN I LOVE MY NATURAL TEXTURE SO MUCH!"  So thus, it doesn't have to be our thoughts about something that can cause the issue, it can be what we DO or don't do that cause a temporary issue.  If we stopped doing the thing causing the issue, then maybe it would go away.

So what if you desire straighter hair and you relax to get it that way?  So what if you desire a better looking nose and you get a nose job to get it that way?  Is this something that's bothering you everyday on a regular basis or just something you wish for in passing?  Do you feel you _need_ a better nose?  Does this mean you think your nose is bad?  Does this mean if I hear 50,000 people say that big noses are ugly and read articles that I can try to read between the lines about YOUR personal case and tell you that you have serious self esteem issues?  NO.

If you feel you need something, that's when it could be an internalized issue.  No one needs to relax.  No one needs to be natural.  It's a choice we make. 




			
				Bunny77 said:
			
		

> I grew to believe that the best way to have one's hair was straight, unless you were some super-duper black militant (which I'm not.)


See, I've always been pretty open-minded.  You know, the "You like it, I love it" type.  I love straight hair but I never once thought that is the best standard of beauty for everyone.  I loved long hair and wanted it for myself when I was little but I didn't think that long hair was the best standard of beauty for everyone.  My aunt didn't have long hair (she wore hers in an Afro, still does to this day) and I thought it looked beautiful on her.


As for self esteem problems in hair, I'll say it again.  Yes, I believe there are several with these.  However, it's not just for black people.  There are people in all races that express self esteem issues about their hair for different reasons.  If a black girl does indeed express that she has self esteem issues about her hair then it doesn't _have_ to be linked to her race at all.  It could be, though.  You may have a self esteem issue because your hair won't grow long or is breaking off.  Now you may just happen to be black, but someone of another race could give this same dilemma.




			
				Bunny77 said:
			
		

> which again, tells you something if you read between the lines.


It tells me that there is a problem.  It tells me WHY it may be a problem for _the people studied_.  But can I say that their reason for their problem is the same reason as the majority's problems with hair?  NO.  Can I say it is for many?  YES.



			
				Bunny77 said:
			
		

> (which I think is a well-founded and documented one) and I'm sticking to it!



There's a difference between giving your _opinion_ and trying to say that your opinion is _fact_.  

As I said before (before I even knew that you'd read articles), I believed that _YOUR_ beliefs were founded/had ground because you had heard or overhead several of the women who relaxed in your area say negative comments and then the reasons why they made them.  Reading articles or the results of statistical analyses is just another way of "hearing" (although indirectly) something if by hearing you mean obtaining information or reasons why.  The only thing that we need to be cautious of is when someone obtains information (even from many) and then tries to apply it to some random person based on what they know about a subject.  It could be helpful, but then again it can do more harm than good sometimes.  We can inadvertently cause something that may not have been an issue for someone to become an issue if we aren't careful of our actions and our speech.


----------



## CaramelMiSS (Jan 30, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> I definitely wasn't trying to express that I had never heard a black woman say something negative of her hair or others'. This may be hard for some to believe, but you can say something negative in passing about something you dislike about yourself and it does NOT have to be a deeper, self esteem issue unless you really just cannot let it go. You can look down and see a mole developing on your leg and say "Ugh, this is so ugly! I hate this mole!" but then you can just accept that it's there to stay and not worry yourself with it again. It doesn't mean that because you have said that you hate the mole that it's going to cause you personally to feel ugly or make you lose sleep at night. But if you keep harping about it, then that's a different story.
> 
> What I was trying to get across was is that I may have heard women say negative things about their hair, but I do not know for certain why the _individuals_ are saying something negative unless they voice this somehow. Is it related to race? White beauty standards? Self esteem? The fact that they personally don't find something attractive? A combination of all these factors? Things really can be more complex than just writing it off as one simple issue.
> 
> ...


 
WOW, you are a neuroscientist!!  That is soo cool, my professor was telling us about how the two sides of the brain function when they are connected and when they are not connected  and i thought it was interesting.  Could you possibly pm me about what you do in your field. Thanks!!


----------



## Bunny77 (Jan 30, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> As I said before (before I even knew that you'd read articles), I believed that _YOUR_ beliefs were founded/had ground because you had heard or overhead several of the women who relaxed in your area say negative comments and then the reasons why they made them.  Reading articles or the results of statistical analyses is just another way of "hearing" (although indirectly) something if by hearing you mean obtaining information or reasons why.



Just to clarify, my beliefs come from a combination of both things.    The articles I have read coincide with the things that I have heard directly, so I look at both as pretty accurate depictions... not 100% truths about every black person, but general commonalities.

One last thing (haven't I said that before?)... using the "Your hair is nappy" example... that statement is also used as "fighting words" for one black woman to insult another. Also the term "bad hair" seems to only have resonance in the black community, even though women of all races can have bad hair days or be frizzy and struggle with their hair... no other race in this country has a whole category of hair they describe as bad or considers a comment about hair worthy of starting a fight or defending oneself from a fight. 

I'm wondering what you think about that.

And neuroscience is interesting... I have a degree in social relations/public affairs (although that's not my career field), so I'm thinking we have different ways of interpreting information we are given.


----------



## navsegda (Jan 30, 2007)

Bunny77 said:
			
		

> Just to clarify, my beliefs come from a combination of both things.    The articles I have read coincide with the things that I have heard directly, so I look at both as pretty accurate depictions... not 100% truths about every black person, but general commonalities.
> 
> One last thing (haven't I said that before?)... using the "Your hair is nappy" example... that statement is also used as "fighting words" for one black woman to insult another. Also the term "bad hair" seems to only have resonance in the black community, even though women of all races can have bad hair days or be frizzy and struggle with their hair... no other race in this country has a whole category of hair they describe as bad or considers a comment about hair worthy of starting a fight or defending oneself from a fight.
> 
> ...


OK, first of all.  Why is there a character limit for posts?  

Second of all, back to your question haha.  I do not like to call someone else's hair nappy.  Maybe that's just me.  I do see it as being a derogatory term a lot of the time when people use it (but like I've said I've had people tell me they were just making an observation and they weren't trying to be insulting, so yeah).  If you said your hair is nappy, I'm still going to continue calling you natural.  I think sometimes it can be one of those things where YOU can say something about yourself but if someone else says it, then all hell breaks loose.

Personally, I've heard whites refer to certain types of their own hair texture as bad (not referring to straight whites commenting on curly-haired whites but whites who have a texture similar to some of ours).  I've even heard some of them call some of their own's hair "nappy" and poke fun and laugh.  This is once again why I do not like hearing other people refer to someone else's hair as "nappy."  When I think of naps I think of white people saying "n**ger naps" and I don't understand why we'd use a term that so many have degraded us by.  I can understand that many of us may be referring to our natural hair as nappy so we can turn a positive light on a term that was once used to degrade us to get people to accept their hair, but to me it's like taking the term n**ger (a term also used to degrade us) and starting to call each other that, too just to bring about a more positive light.  I mean, I'll hear all sorts of people say "I love my nappy hair" but you won't hear anyone say "I love my n**ger skin."


----------



## Hidden_Angel (Jan 30, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> OK, first of all. Why is there a character limit for posts?
> 
> Second of all, back to your question haha. I do not like to call someone else's hair nappy. Maybe that's just me. I do see it as being a derogatory term a lot of the time when people use it (but like I've said I've had people tell me they were just making an observation and they weren't trying to be insulting, so yeah). If you said your hair is nappy, I'm still going to continue calling you natural. I think sometimes it can be one of those things where YOU can say something about yourself but if someone else says it, then all hell breaks loose.
> 
> ...


----------



## Country gal (Jan 30, 2007)

WOW. Ya'll are still going at it. This is a long thread.


----------



## Hidden_Angel (Jan 30, 2007)

Country gal said:
			
		

> WOW. Ya'll are still going at it. This is a long thread.


 
 i was thinking the same thing


----------



## jshor09 (Jan 30, 2007)

wow  36 pages.  this post is to make it 37.  hugs to everyone.


----------



## jshor09 (Jan 30, 2007)

this is a long thread


----------



## Hibiscus_Hair (Jan 30, 2007)

I think our hair was meant to be locked.


----------



## lovegan (Jan 30, 2007)

nappywomyn said:
			
		

> Oooohhh!!
> 
> I knew there was something else I wanted to speak on - the whole thing about babies hair/is our hair supposed to be like this/Africans being able to grow more/longer hair.
> 
> ...




I concur..garbage in is garbage out. you put garbage in your body-what do you think your skin and hair will look like?

to the original question of the post: i don't think our hair is inherently difficult ....it's what we _*CHOOSE to do to it*_: straighten it, high light it, etc etc. 

a lot of the ladies here have commented on how much longer and healtheir their hair is when they_* leave it the heck alone!*_ haha

i think its about finding a balance between what you are naturally born with and what you want to have. you weren't born with bone straight, blonde hair, why fight and burn and pull and struggle your way to get it?


----------



## Mahalialee4 (Jan 30, 2007)

FINAL POST TO  Navsegda : All good science starts with a hypothesis: in laymen's terms 
the purpose of the study of science is to uncover, to dissect, if you will, to look for commonalities, to take a percentile of findings and form a theory. Often they use par based surveys.  They do not knock on every door or send questionanaires to every home, but we have a lot of info out there that is scientifically based, routinely quoted, and it may not fit your  personal "criteria" on a variety of issues and human concerns. 
When evaluating you not only look at quantitative (numbers), you look at qualitative.( the overall climate, spirit and projection.

You may represent the 1 % who have never read these theories, or been in the place of the 99% who have and have experienced  it in their daily lives. I am actively engaged with black communities of women on a regular basis dealing with these very specific issues as a speaker, counselor etc. not just locally but nationally and involved with government agencies addressing issues relating to the black communities and I have also been involved with companies dealing with racism and human rights complaints,  setting up Ethics committees in businesses etc. Whether I am in Canada, the U.S. or the Islands,  or visiting campuses etc. I find the same pattern repeating itself. I believe what they share with me. That is even aside from published literature
(part one)


----------



## Mahalialee4 (Jan 30, 2007)

Part Two of Final Post
But to argue that none of these â€œ racist scientificâ€ theories or summations are in print, and used to shape public opinion or to manipulate outcomes is surprising given your background, wouldn't you say?
To argue that there are not a large number of internet discussion boards devoted to promoting racial superiority would be very presumptious. They refer to some of this same "scientific " data to support their views.
Guess who their main subject matter is?  Take a WILD GUESS. Guess whose hair and features they are making fun of? But as I said, you do your own research, I have already done mine.
 To say that putting in words, on paper, in the media, and in the schools, and dividing up whole countries along racial lines establishing a world wide playing field of the superiors and inferiors according  to the â€œgenetics scienceâ€ back in the day, did not and does not exist and did not shape a world view of black people and an internalizing by black people is not scientific on your part, it is condescending and you are out of step with many of your peers and those in other related scientific fields or perhaps you haven't had the opportunity or desire to examine any of these findings.
But I am still waiting for the report of "your proof" that has been the rallying  cry of your gauntlet. Let's not forget that in the midst of your dialogue, because you have made some judgemental statements that were unfounded to some on this thread that were not scientifically based, by inferring that people were "making up things, that they were not speaking from any proof, and quibbling about numbers. I personally will not go round and round in circles with you any further in a cycle of circular reasoning. We do not apparently have the same focus. I will leave you to deal with stats and I will focus on people.  I do not believe that the history of black women's pain revolving their hair is all in their heads. I acknowledge it and weep with them and for them as one of them and continue to focus on the root causes of the pain rather than offering a bandaid because I care very deeply about my people.
Love and peace out! bonjour


----------



## Mahalialee4 (Jan 30, 2007)

Kally, I could direct you to some sites that focus on easier management of our hair if it is caused by tangling, or dryness or some other factor. PM me if you like. There is one thread that is about 150 pages long dedicated to it that I started some time ago. I will send that one to you by pm now.


----------



## Sistaslick (Jan 30, 2007)

Bunny77 said:
			
		

> Just to clarify, my beliefs come from a combination of both things.    The articles I have read coincide with the things that I have heard directly, so I look at both as pretty accurate depictions... not 100% truths about every black person, but general commonalities.
> 
> One last thing (haven't I said that before?)... using the "Your hair is nappy" example... that statement is also used as "fighting words" for one black woman to insult another. Also the term "bad hair" seems to only have resonance in the black community, even though women of all races can have bad hair days or be frizzy and struggle with their hair... no other race in this country has a whole category of hair they describe as bad or considers a comment about hair worthy of starting a fight or defending oneself from a fight.
> 
> ...



I told myself to stay out of here but from reading both sides, this really appears to be the case to me.  

Ok, I can't speak for everybody but lemme see if I have this straight.  Navs, it kinda seems that your logic requires someone to explicitly voice their particular reasons for relaxing.  And that reason only, is the final proof and/or truth for that person at that time.  Only by that person admitting or voicing that particular reasoning can it be said that this reasoning is valid.  From this standpoint, the individual herself is the final authority.  The reasoning behind the actions are as concrete as the answer given.  But here, the predisposing, enabling, and reinforcing factors that may be governing the behavior are essentially ignored.  To me, this is a somewhat cosmetic or surface scratching approach.  The problem with this is that if a person is unaware of those factors, they are missing a critical link needed to explain their behaviors, without it they cannot admit to anything.  They can only admit what they "know" which can be flawed, lacking, or dicey if those factors are not included in the assessment.  Or is it more of an "There's a history to this behavior/action, but I am separate from that history because I do it for x,y,z?"

It seems that Bunny and others are referring to the deeper social and psycological aspects of the debate-- the fact that many people are following a "social script" when they relax and may not truly be fully aware of the deeper social roots of their actions.  In this case, many will not admit that their relaxing comes from something beyond them and their manageability issues simply because they are not aware of it.  It is kind of hard to admit or come to terms with something that you aren't aware of.  From this standpoint, the individual is inherently flawed and subject to the power of influence from the environment.  In this case, a person may not be fully aware of the reasons for her actions.  From this point of view, the meat of the issue is hardly manageability. This issue (and its ugly twin the skin color/tone issue) goes much deeper. To me, this approach is much deeper because it deals with the effects of socialization on the subconcious.  It seems to say, "There's a history to this behavior, and though I do it for x,y,z I am still connected to that history because reason x,y, and z are by products of that history."

I don't know though.  I guess it depends on if you want to see this as an individual issue or a community issue. :scratchch Let me get outta here I am confusing my own self.


----------



## Sistaslick (Jan 30, 2007)

Country gal said:
			
		

> WOW. Ya'll are still going at it. This is a long thread.




Its that time of year again.    We have to get the relaxed v. natural debates out of our system for the fiscal year. 

_Waiting for some light-skindeded/dark-skindeded OT threads to pop up_


----------



## navsegda (Jan 30, 2007)

Mahalialee4 said:
			
		

> Navsegda:
> 
> So " the need for proof is your issue with what is being said"????



I believe that when we make a statement ABOUT THE MAJORITY then we need proof.  If someone says "All black people are X way" then I want proof because otherwise you are talking out of your ass.  We do not need broad, sweeping generalizations.  I do not have an issue with the validity of what people are saying.  I ask questions because I want to know why they think the way they do and I do not want to make assumptions about what they mean without clarification.  



			
				Mahalialee4 said:
			
		

> The proof is in the literature written by the white scientists to "prove that blacks are inferior" which was often quoted in schools and universities!


I do not deny this.  However, not ALL of those white scientists say that blacks are inferior.  Some of them did, but not all.



			
				Mahalialee4 said:
			
		

> The proof is in those "who have not been spared" your one world view or not been spared the trauma of racism in so many of its subtle or blatant forms.



I do not have a one world view.  For you to say so is ludicrous and plain out asinine.  I believe that there are many elements that make up something and that many things are more complex than meets the eye (which is what I've been saying all along) and we need some type of proof before we go making any broad, all-encompassing claims.  That would make us no better than the "white scientists" who made all these claims about black people being barbaric and inferior when they had no proof.



			
				Mahalialee4 said:
			
		

> I believe we need to hear everyone: You are presenting yourself as needing proof and numbers and specifics. So here is the only logical, empowering way for this to be settled for you so here it is:
> 
> #1.   all of these people whom you claim are not having a problem and are making it up to be defending your "isolated" views that this has not happened, is not happening and that there is 'no proof'?  What did they say? Was this a door to door interview or did you mail out questionnaires or do a par based survey?


First of all, do not put words into my mouth.  I have NEVER claimed that anyone was NOT having a problem unless they of course TOLD me that they were not.  I never said that this was not happening.  When someone mentioned about personally knowing girls who had problems, not once did I say that they were lying or that the problems did not exist.   I asked WHY this problem existed because I was interested in what they had to say, but never have I told someone "Oh please, you didn't do any research.  You're just lying."  I said that based on the research you have done, you cannot APPLY IT TO EVERYONE or any random person and have it be true for them as well.  Furthermore, I  said that many can have this problem of self esteem and there are many others who cannot.  It leaves room for error.  I do not have to do questionnaires or door to door interviews because I'm not saying that anything is for certain (except that we do not know what's going on in everyone's head) in the FIRST place.  I'm not saying that "most black women have a problem with black hair and self esteem."  I'm not saying that "all relaxed women have a problem with black hair and self esteem."  I'm saying that people COULD have a problem and that MANY do but that is ALL I'm saying.  How is this wrong?

Second of all, my views are NOT isolated and you cannot presume to tell me that they are because of what I've said here (or even worse, from what I _haven't_ said that you are ASSUMING that I feel).  I have NEVER denied that black people (go back and reread my posts) had issues and I have NEVER said that anyone in this thread was making stuff up about what they read or about what they heard based on self esteem issues.  I give everyone the benefit of the doubt.  Why don't you try it sometime?  The only time anyone here would need to prove anything to me is if they made a broad claim like "All black women have serious self esteem issues regarding their hair" and guess what?  No one has said it.  If I say, "I have yet to see evidence" of X, it does NOT mean that I am implying that it doesn't exist, but it's just like I said:  I just haven't seen it (yet).

See, this is exactly what happens when we make ASSUMPTIONS.  Instead of you asking me what I believed like Bunny77 did, here you go pulling all this sh*t out of your ass with some sanctimonious holier-than-thou, more enlightened than thou attitude.  I have not said that anyone's issues are in the majority so thus the burden of proof does NOT need to lie on me.  The burden of proof only lies on someone when they say that something ISN'T the way it is.  If you tell me that black women are having self esteem issues and I say "This definitely isn't true," then THAT is when the burden of proof would lie on me.  I believe in certainty and thus I am not going to say for certain that something is the way it is or not for most people because of reason X,Y,Z.  Everything else is many, ifs, maybes, etc. and if you look through my posts you will see just that.  Not once did I ever claim that anything was a hardcore fact that wasn't.



			
				mahalialee4 said:
			
		

> # 2. We need to assume that you are being honest and that we are not. We also need to assume that you have PROOF  to back up your statements.
> 
> Where is your proof?  Bring forth your witnesses and documentation. Make sure they are African Americans and really exist. Make sure that you interview every black and white person in America. You will of course need to have these documented and notarized. To be totally fair you have to interview everybody to prove that it is TOTALLY ACCURATE.


You don't need to assume a damn thing because I never said or implied that the rest of you were NOT being honest when you provided examples of why black girls may or may not have hair issues.  I asked questions so I could learn more about what was being said and why it was being said.  How is this so freaking hard for you to understand?





			
				mahalialee4 said:
			
		

> #3.  When can we expect your report?    and of course it will have to be well referenced and supported by ethical scientific and legally relevant documentation.  We will need quotes:


You can expect my report on the 12th of never when what you've actually said here about me is really true.  Since you are having some major problems with comprehending my posts, I suggest you go back and then comment with ACCURACY on statements that I have made.  What kind of sense would it make for me to go out and do a study and then make a report when I wasn't making any definite claims in the first place?  To just prove what I had been saying all along?  That there is so much room for variation and that just because there are many people who may say a certain thing it doesn't mean that everyone in a particular category feels the exact same way?



			
				mahalialee4 said:
			
		

> The fact is, we do not have to PROVE ANYTHING to you. If we know it, researched it and are aware of it, we will work our experiences out and eventually come to a deeper understanding of ourselves. Obviously this does not apply to you even though you obviously speak for ALL of us AND ALL of the white people in the world.




How am I speaking for all of us and all the people in the world?  I am the one who has repeatedly talked about tolerance and acceptance and that there are always exceptions, so please, once again, tell me how I am trying to speak for everyone again?  And when I mentioned what I knew about whites I was always careful to say words like "some" or "several" or "if" because I KNOW that I cannot speak for everyone.  Please show me where I ever said "all blacks" or "all whites."


----------



## JustKiya (Jan 30, 2007)

Oh, man!! I was hoping we would get into the diet thing... I see I'mma have to start a new thread.... *LOL*


----------



## LocksOfLuV (Jan 30, 2007)

This is no longer a thread. This is a after-school marathon session on how one should love themselves. 

On the real, all of these long drawn out posts/scriptures isn't going to solve the problem. For no one is truly even understanding one another.  It just keeps going and going and going....


----------



## Sistaslick (Jan 30, 2007)

Whoa simma simma Navs!!!   

_*hands Navs a water bottle and towel*_


----------



## Hidden_Angel (Jan 30, 2007)

I agree with you LOVElocks...

this mess is started to scare me abit..


----------



## LocksOfLuV (Jan 30, 2007)

Sistaslick said:
			
		

> Whoa simma simma Navs!!!
> 
> _*hands Navs a water bottle and towel*_


 
Yeah Navs, don't let em see you sweat. It's not worth it honey. For every 1-3 people in this post who don't understand your point there is about 5 lurkers nodding their heads. It's all good in the hood.


----------



## Hidden_Angel (Jan 30, 2007)

LocksOfLuV said:
			
		

> Yeah Navs, don't let em see you sweat. It's not worth it honey. For every 1-3 people in this post who don't understand your point there is about 5 lurkers nodding their heads. It's all good in the hood.


 

I have to agree.. on this one...


----------



## Sistaslick (Jan 30, 2007)

LocksOfLuV said:
			
		

> This is no longer a thread. This is a after-school marathon session on how one should love themselves.
> 
> On the real, all of these long drawn out posts/scriptures isn't going to solve the problem. For no one is truly even understanding one another.  It just keeps going and going and going....




I haven't gotten any work done today.  None.  

Locks, You should love yourself better.  You really should.  *blah blah blah*
*blah blah blah**blah blah blah**blah blah blah**blah blah blah**blah blah blah**blah blah blah*
*blah blah blah**blah blah blah**blah blah blah**blah blah blah**blah blah blah**blah blah blah*
*blah blah blah**blah blah blah**blah blah blah**blah blah blah**blah blah blah**blah blah blah*
*blah blah blah**blah blah blah**blah blah blah**blah blah blah**blah blah blah*


*long drawn out*

*blah blah blah**blah blah blah**blah blah blah**blah blah blah**blah blah blah**blah blah blah*
*blah blah blah**blah blah blah**blah blah blah**blah blah blah**blah blah blah**blah blah blah*
*blah blah blah**blah blah blah**blah blah blah**blah blah blah**blah blah blah**blah blah blah*
*blah blah blah**blah blah blah**blah blah blah**blah blah blah**blah blah blah*

You need to love yourself.


----------



## navsegda (Jan 30, 2007)

mahalialee4 said:
			
		

> Bring forth your proof to us that you have the proof that what is being said on this forum is "made up", that there is no racist material in writing and on the internet, and that thousands have not been impacted by racism and suffer self esteem issues. we will acknowledge that we are all wrong and delusional. I respectfully await your proof and look forward to considering everything you say as long as you stick with FACTS. None of would want to "look like fools" as you so delicately put it.
> bonjour



If you say "All black people relax their hair because they are ashamed of their heritage" then YES, you need to provide proof that all black people do this. Come on now, this is just common sense. 

I NEVER said that anything on this forum is made up. Not once. I never said that there was no racist material in writing or on the internet, and I never said that thousands HAVE NOT been impacted by racism or do not suffer self esteem issues. Please reread my posts and quote me to where I said that these women were lying or making stuff up based on their own experiences or what they have read. The only thing I said was that we cannot use information BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT that we've studied about others or heard from others and use it to lump everyone in the same category. I also never said anyone was wrong or delusional. Based on the research we have done, while it may be valid, it does not mean that it absolutely has to apply to the majority or will apply to every random person we meet that may be exhibiting the same type of behavior.

This is why I tried to reiterate so much that no one likes being told WHAT they thought especially when the person telling them could be way off the mark, as you are.

Next time you reply to me, reply to stuff I've actually said like every other logical human being in this thread. Don't reply based on the BROAD generalizations you have made about me with NO PROOF whatsoever. 

When you actually KNOW HOW I FEEL OR WHAT'S GOING ON IN MY HEAD, then you come back to me.

But thanks to you, you have just proven my point once again about how important it is to have PROOF before we say things. Not assumptions. Assumptions make you look very ignorant, no matter how smart you may think you are.  Note:  This part has been re-edited to remove the swearing.




			
				Mahalialee4 said:
			
		

> FINAL POST TO  Navsegda : All good science starts with a hypothesis: in laymen's terms
> the purpose of the study of science is to uncover, to dissect, if you will, to look for commonalities, to take a percentile of findings and form a theory. Often they use par based surveys.  They do not knock on every door or send questionanaires to every home, but we have a lot of info out there that is scientifically based, routinely quoted, and it may not fit your  personal "criteria" on a variety of issues and human concerns.
> When evaluating you not only look at quantitative (numbers), you look at qualitative.( the overall climate, spirit and projection.


Lady, I do not need layman's terms.  Please do no tell me what the purpose of science is, you know, considering how I AM a scientist and I DO have published research of my own.  I will not sit back here and be condescended to by someone who has twisted my words, twisted my views, and told outright blatantly wrong things about HOW I FEEL.

I know how science works.  I never said they have to knock on every door and send questionnaires to every home to be valid.  Therefore, I do not need you to tell me something that I already know.  But no scientist or sociologist or psychologist is sitting around claiming that what they have studied cannot be proven wrong or that something they've observed about someone else's behavior has to apply to EVERY single person on the face of this Earth.



			
				Mahalialee4 said:
			
		

> You may represent the 1 % who have never read these theories, or been in the place of the 99% who have and have experienced  it in their daily lives. I am actively engaged with black communities of women on a regular basis dealing with these very specific issues as a speaker, counselor etc. not just locally but nationally and involved with government agencies addressing issues relating to the black communities and I have also been involved with companies dealing with racism and human rights complaints,  setting up Ethics committees in businesses etc. Whether I am in Canada, the U.S. or the Islands,  or visiting campuses etc. I find the same pattern repeating itself. I believe what they share with me. That is even aside from published literature
> (part one)


Ok, once again, WHEN did I say that I have never read these theories or never heard theories on black women with self esteem issues and hair?  And better yet, when did I say I BELIEVED that these theories presented to me were false? Oh that's right.  I didn't.  So thus, there is no reason or evidence for me to be in the 1% who may have never read these theories because that would be untrue in the first place.


----------



## LocksOfLuV (Jan 30, 2007)

Sistaslick said:
			
		

> I haven't gotten any work done today. None.
> 
> Locks, You should love yourself better. You really should. *blah blah blah*
> *blah blah blah**blah blah blah**blah blah blah**blah blah blah**blah blah blah**blah blah blah*
> ...


 
Shame on you!!!!!


























You forgot the scriptures....


----------



## cocoberry10 (Jan 30, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> Environment and socialization have a lot of influence on the perceptions of our hair along with the way our hair exists on top of our heads.
> 
> *Environment: *food, pollution, chemicals, weather/climate, etc.
> 
> ...



I agree with this.


----------



## LocksOfLuV (Jan 30, 2007)

Hidden_Angel said:
			
		

> I have to agree.. on this one...


 
People probably reading this thread thinking "they look like some plum dumb fools!"

"I thought I told you that we won't stop"-Puffy


----------



## cocoberry10 (Jan 30, 2007)

Isis said:
			
		

> I believe we have the most beautiful, versatile hair in the world.  Haircare can be easy once we learn how.  The same applies to all hair types.
> 
> God made our hair perfectly.  The struggle some people have is working against their hair, trying to make it appear according to someone else's standard.
> 
> For me, I make sure my hair journey is totally fun and it has been.  That's what makes it easy and something to look forward to.



I totally agree with this


----------



## navsegda (Jan 30, 2007)

Mahalialee4 said:
			
		

> Part Two of Final Post
> But to argue that none of these â€œ racist scientificâ€ theories or summations are in print, and used to shape public opinion or to manipulate outcomes is surprising given your background, wouldn't you say?


How is it surprising given my background when first of all I have NOT argued that none of these "racist scientific" theories are in print?  Where in the WORLD did I say that ANYWHERE?  One that is still in print for instance is the one where whites tried to say we were inferior because they used beans in a white person and black person's skulls and they said that white people were more intelligent because more beans could fit in their skull.



			
				Mahalialee4 said:
			
		

> To argue that there are not a large number of internet discussion boards devoted to promoting racial superiority would be very presumptious. They refer to some of this same "scientific " data to support their views.
> Guess who their main subject matter is?  Take a WILD GUESS. Guess whose hair and features they are making fun of? But as I said, you do your own research, I have already done mine.


*sigh*

I never ever argued this.  Man, I'm having to say that a lot lately.



			
				Mahalialee4 said:
			
		

> To say that putting in words, on paper, in the media, and in the schools, and dividing up whole countries along racial lines establishing a world wide playing field of the superiors and inferiors according  to the â€œgenetics scienceâ€ back in the day, did not and does not exist and did not shape a world view of black people and an internalizing by black people is not scientific on your part, it is condescending and you are out of step with many of your peers and those in other related scientific fields or perhaps you haven't had the opportunity or desire to examine any of these findings.


I never said this either.  It wouldn't be scientific on my part if I had actually assumed or said the things that you are assuming I did or feel.



			
				Mahalialee4 said:
			
		

> But I am still waiting for the report of "your proof" that has been the rallying  cry of your gauntlet. Let's not forget that in the midst of your dialogue, because you have made some judgemental statements that were unfounded to some on this thread that were not scientifically based, by inferring that people were "making up things, that they were not speaking from any proof, and quibbling about numbers. I personally will not go round and round in circles with you any further in a cycle of circular reasoning. We do not apparently have the same focus. I will leave you to deal with stats and I will focus on people.  I do not believe that the history of black women's pain revolving their hair is all in their heads. I acknowledge it and weep with them and for them as one of them and continue to focus on the root causes of the pain rather than offering a bandaid because I care very deeply about my people.
> Love and peace out! bonjour


Never inferred that anyone was making up things.  Please get your story straight.

Wow, this is my shortest post in this entire thread HAHAHAHA.


----------



## Sistaslick (Jan 30, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> *You can expert my report on the 12th of never *



I'm sorry but why you had to say this


----------



## Hidden_Angel (Jan 30, 2007)

I have to agree with Mahalialee4 and Navs.. both bring vaild points....

I'd pay to watch these two smart woman duke it out * * \

*Brain* vs. *Brain*


----------



## shocol (Jan 30, 2007)

nappywomyn said:
			
		

> Oh, man!! I was hoping we would get into the diet thing... I see I'mma have to start a new thread.... *LOL*



Please do... cause I am starting to really believe this.


----------



## JazzyDez (Jan 30, 2007)




----------



## navsegda (Jan 30, 2007)

Sistaslick said:
			
		

> I told myself to stay out of here but from reading both sides, this really appears to be the case to me.
> 
> Ok, I can't speak for everybody but lemme see if I have this straight.  Navs, it kinda seems that your logic requires someone to explicitly voice their particular reasons for relaxing.  And that reason only, is the final proof and/or truth for that person at that time.  Only by that person admitting or voicing that particular reasoning can it be said that this reasoning is valid.  From this standpoint, the individual herself is the final authority.  The reasoning behind the actions are as concrete as the answer given.  But here, the predisposing, enabling, and reinforcing factors that may be governing the behavior are essentially ignored.  To me, this is a somewhat cosmetic or surface scratching approach.  The problem with this is that if a person is unaware of those factors, they are missing a critical link needed to explain their behaviors, without it they cannot admit to anything.  They can only admit what they "know" which can be flawed, lacking, or dicey if those factors are not included in the assessment.  Or is it more of an "There's a history to this behavior/action, but I am separate from that history because I do it for x,y,z?"


Thank you for politely addresing me and for not putting words in my mouth.  What I meant to get across in this whole matter is that none of us can say for certain why every black woman relaxes because we do not know every black woman and we cannot say that because some black women may relax or because some black women may feel uncomfortable with their hair for reason X, Y, or Z that it means that ALL black women in the same or similar situations feel the same way.  We can read research and be told how several black women feel about the matter but for anyone to see a random relaxed person on the street for instance, and say, "Oh, she relaxes because she has self esteem issues with her natural hair" would be incorrect.  This does not make the information you have obtained any less valid because it stills hold true for the people who have told you things and that you have read about, but it may not hold true for every relaxed person you come into contact with.  Is this clearer?  If it's not, please let me know so I can try to clarify.  



			
				SistaSlick said:
			
		

> It seems that Bunny and others are referring to the deeper social and psycological aspects of the debate-- the fact that many people are following a "social script" when they relax and may not truly be fully aware of the deeper social roots of their actions.  In this case, many will not admit that their relaxing comes from something beyond them and their manageability issues simply because they are not aware of it.  It is kind of hard to admit or come to terms with something that you aren't aware of.  From this standpoint, the individual is inherently flawed and subject to the power of influence from the environment.  In this case, a person may not be fully aware of the reasons for her actions.  From this point of view, the meat of the issue is hardly manageability. This issue (and its ugly twin the skin color/tone issue) goes much deeper. To me, this approach is much deeper because it deals with the effects of socialization on the subconcious.  It seems to say, "There's a history to this behavior, and though I do it for x,y,z I am still connected to that history because reason x,y, and z are by products of that history."
> 
> I don't know though.  I guess it depends on if you want to see this as an individual issue or a community issue. :scratchch Let me get outta here I am confusing my own self.


See, what you are saying is definitely valid because you (and others in the thread) have repeatedly said "many."  I try to leave room open for error by saying that someone could or could not feel a certain way (whether they express this or not) because that's just how things are.  Many do have this issue.  On the contrary, some may not.  Many do not fully understand why they do the things they do.  My whole premise is that we can quantify and qualify things in terms of many, several, etc. but we cannot say what all or even most (in some cases, not talking about separate studies) do or feel with certainty just based on what others do or feel.


----------



## Kalani (Jan 30, 2007)

zailless said:
			
		

> I am sick of my difficult hair.  From straight to natural to braids to wigs to braids again.  i feel like this is a raw deal.  i cuss about it every now and again.  forget socialization and all that crap.  right now, i wish i had hair that i could sleep on and not worry about breakage, that i could take a swim in the sea and not worry about salt, go to the gym and not worry about whether i should wash everyday or not.



I have not read through all of the posts but AMEN to this!!! 

Forget trying to be PC, I mean I love my curls and all cause they are beautiful but just for once I would like to do all that is mentioned in the above post without the huge hassle! And I'm sorry but even when my hair was all natural it was still hella difficult to deal with! Trying to get a comb thru my hair (even with conditioner and oils) was a one hour ordeal! Now thanks to my handy phytorelaxer  , it takes considerably less time.

I know all races have their own little problems but are simple recreational things as much as a hassle for them? I know some of my white and asian friends who can frolick at the beach or the pool swimming, then spend the rest of the entire day out in the sun (no protection) and their hair will literally dry back to its normal position before the swim.  You wouldn't even know they were at the beach cause sometimes we'll go out to eat  right after our day of swimming and surfing, and their hair will look all normal and groomed and mine will be a complete departure from its previous state (and trust me its not a pretty sight).  

I know this seems silly and trivial but I'm an active person and I yearn for such convenience, I am not afraid to say it!!!


----------



## Sistaslick (Jan 30, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> See, what you are saying is definitely valid because you (and others in the thread) have repeatedly said "many." I try to leave room open for error by saying that someone could or could not feel a certain way (whether they express this or not) because that's just how things are. Many do have this issue. On the contrary, some may not. Many do not fully understand why they do the things they do. My whole premise is that we can quantify and qualify things in terms of many, several, etc. but we cannot say what all or even most (in some cases, not talking about separate studies) do or feel with certainty just based on what others do or feel.





Okay, I won't be greedy and I'll take that.  I ain't tryna get cut.    


I'm still laughing over that report being issued on the 12th of never.


----------



## LocksOfLuV (Jan 30, 2007)

dtachi said:
			
		

> I have not read through all of the posts but AMEN to this!!!
> 
> Forget trying to be PC, I mean I love my curls and all cause they are beautiful but just for once I would like to do all that is mentioned in the above post without the huge hassle! And I'm sorry but even when my hair was all natural it was still hella difficult to deal with! Trying to get a comb thru my hair (even with conditioner and oils) was a one hour ordeal! Now thanks to my handy phytorelaxer  , it takes considerably less time.
> 
> ...


 

*hoping that dtachi won't get rebuked in the name of blackness today*


girl you bold!


----------



## Sistaslick (Jan 30, 2007)

dtachi said:
			
		

> I have not read through all of the posts but AMEN to this!!!
> 
> Forget trying to be PC, I mean I love my curls and all cause they are beautiful but just for once I would like to do all that is mentioned in the above post without the huge hassle! And I'm sorry but even when my hair was all natural it was still hella difficult to deal with! Trying to get a comb thru my hair (even with conditioner and oils) was a one hour ordeal! Now thanks to my handy phytorelaxer  , it takes considerably less time.
> 
> ...




In the name of all that is heavenly, holy, and black... you have officially been rebuked ma'dear.  


j/k.


----------



## Kalani (Jan 30, 2007)

LocksOfLuV said:
			
		

> *hoping that dtachi won't get rebuked in the name of blackness today*
> 
> 
> girl you bold!



Yes, I'm aware I am bold and will likely be stoned and accused of hating myself for various reasons.

I say whatever to all of that! This PC business is exhausting I need to vent once and a while.


----------



## pistachio (Jan 30, 2007)

I just read through the thread, but I kinda figured that there was an argument involved because it seems like threads only get this big when there's conflict.  I'm not taking sides, but I can see where Navs may be aggrevated about people putting words in her mouth because not too long ago people were doing the same to me over a "misunderstanding" that involved hair, and the light and dark skin issue. That thread went from 12 to 35 pages in twenty minutes literally! Talk about blowing things out of proportion!  But I wanna say Mahaliee(sp?) has some valid points too in this matter.


----------



## Enchantmt (Jan 30, 2007)

Mahalialee4 said:
			
		

> Kally, I could direct you to some sites that focus on easier management of our hair if it is caused by tangling, or dryness or some other factor. PM me if you like. There is one thread that is about 150 pages long dedicated to it that I started some time ago. I will send that one to you by pm now.



I'd like that site too plz.


----------



## Mahalialee4 (Jan 30, 2007)

Sending you a pm Enchantment.


----------



## Enchantmt (Jan 30, 2007)

Ok, it appears that some folx smell drama in the air and have come out to agitate and comment from the sideline.  Going forward, if it doesnt add to the discussion, dont post it, as it will be removed. 

For the second time, EVERYONE please refer to this thread:
http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=99040

If you cant respond in a civil manner, come back when you can or leave the thread permanently. 

I was always told that profanity is a small mind trying to express itself, please dont prove that statement true.  Please dont resort to pettiness. The ladies here are better than that. 

Nav, it is true that YOU did not state that these things were made up, but one poster did allude to that, its possible with all the back and forth that it was mistaken for your comment. 

LETS KEEP IT CIVIL AND GIVE EACH OTHER THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT THAT WE ARE NOT TRYING TO OFFEND ONE ANOTHER.


----------



## Enchantmt (Jan 30, 2007)

JazzyDez said:
			
		

>




LOL...not yet and honestly I'm hoping it wont come to that.  However, if it does I will make sure to note those involved in the progressing things to that point.


----------



## navsegda (Jan 30, 2007)

Enchantmt said:
			
		

> Ok, it appears that some folx smell drama in the air and have come out to agitate and comment from the sideline.  Going forward, if it doesnt add to the discussion, dont post it, as it will be removed.
> 
> For the second time, EVERYONE please refer to this thread:
> http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=99040
> ...


Haha, I totally get you.  Sorry for the swearing; I curse when I am angry (the majority of the time it's when I'm angry; but at times I have been known to curse in jest because I have a crude sense of humor) and I admit that it was rude.  The cardiac surgeon who was my lab research mentor used to curse all the time, and I admit that it was DEFINITELY unsettling hearing some of the things he said lol, so sorry for subjecting anyone to that.  I will definitely leave it out of my next replies.  But hey, even Einstein cursed and he definitely wasn't a small mind.     One thing I cannot stand is when someone voices that I think a certain way when I really don't and haven't said it at all.  So next time, I hope if anyone is unsure about what I mean, they will ask me instead of making assumptions.  I'd rather be hated for who I am than loved for who I am not, so if someone dislikes me for what I say, then fine, I'm not going to try to change your opinion, but please dislike me because you've gotten the record entirely straight LMFAO.

*sets out some cookies and milk in the thread and hopes we can all go back to having a nice discussion, even if we disagree*


----------



## DragonPearl (Jan 30, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> What I meant to get across in this whole matter is that none of us can say for certain why every black woman relaxes because we do not know every black woman and we cannot say that because some black women may relax or because some black women may feel uncomfortable with their hair for reason X, Y, or Z that it means that ALL black women in the same or similar situations feel the same way.  We can read research and be told how several black women feel about the matter but for anyone to see a random relaxed person on the street for instance, and say, "Oh, she relaxes because she has self esteem issues with her natural hair" would be incorrect.  This does not make the information you have obtained any less valid because it stills hold true for the people who have told you things and that you have read about, but it may not hold true for every relaxed person you come into contact with.  Is this clearer?  If it's not, please let me know so I can try to clarify.


I so agree with you.

Sure, there are hair issues in the Black community, but people can't make blanket judgements about why someone does something with their hair.  I know I am guilty of doing this, for instance, if a woman always wear weaves and her hair never see the light of days (a la Mary J Blige), I will assume she hates her hair, but what do I know?  Maybe for her, it's the easiest way to deal with her hair, letting a stylist put weaves in and not having to work on it being healthy. 

It's no different from seeing an IR couple on the streets, and assuming that the Black person is with the non-Black person because they hate themselves, or that the non-Black person is with the Black person because they have jungle fever.  

I wish blanket generalizations would stop, but I won't be holding my breath.


----------



## navsegda (Jan 30, 2007)

Also, I feel that I personally need some wisdom from Mother Teresa (at least often attributed to her) in this thread so I am posting this (it may also help others in the face of adversity):


_People are often unreasonable, illogical, and self-centered;
Forgive them anyway.
If you are kind, people may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives;
Be kind anyway.
If you are successful, you will win some false friends and some true enemies;
Succeed anyway.
If you are honest and frank, people may cheat you;
Be honest and frank anyway.
What you spend years building, someone could destroy overnight;
Build anyway.
If you find serenity and happiness, they may be jealous;
Be happy anyway.
The good you do today, people will often forget tomorrow;
Do good anyway.
Give the world the best you have,
and it may never be enough;
Give the world the best you've got anyway.
You see, in the final analysis,
it is between you and God;
It was never between you and them anyway.

_


----------



## Country gal (Jan 30, 2007)

Sistaslick said:
			
		

> I told myself to stay out of here but from reading both sides, this really appears to be the case to me.
> 
> Ok, I can't speak for everybody but lemme see if I have this straight.  Navs, it kinda seems that your logic requires someone to explicitly voice their particular reasons for relaxing.  And that reason only, is the final proof and/or truth for that person at that time.  Only by that person admitting or voicing that particular reasoning can it be said that this reasoning is valid.  From this standpoint, the individual herself is the final authority.  The reasoning behind the actions are as concrete as the answer given.  But here, the predisposing, enabling, and reinforcing factors that may be governing the behavior are essentially ignored.  To me, this is a somewhat cosmetic or surface scratching approach.  The problem with this is that if a person is unaware of those factors, they are missing a critical link needed to explain their behaviors, without it they cannot admit to anything.  They can only admit what they "know" which can be flawed, lacking, or dicey if those factors are not included in the assessment.  Or is it more of an "There's a history to this behavior/action, but I am separate from that history because I do it for x,y,z?"
> 
> ...



Girl, thanks for the cliff notes. I swear I felt like I was in a psych class for a minute. The ladies were so deep and expressive in their responses. I have Adult ADHD, so anything pass two paragraphs or a long paragraph with 50 sentences is too much for my brain.


----------



## Country gal (Jan 30, 2007)

Sistaslick said:
			
		

> Its that time of year again.    We have to get the relaxed v. natural debates out of our system for the fiscal year.
> 
> _Waiting for some light-skindeded/dark-skindeded OT threads to pop up_




For the life of me, I can't understand it. There seems to be some underlying tension regarding the two hair styling options. People can agree to disagree and it would avoid these long threads. I wear my hair in it's natural state. My hair just thrives more without chemicals. I couldn't perm and color my hair without seeing some type of damages. 

I see really healthy heads on the board from naturals and relaxed folks. I don't feel that perms are all bad just bad for me. The DC members have long, healthy permed hair. I also see the naturals representing too.


----------



## Enchantmt (Jan 30, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> Also, I feel that I personally need some wisdom from Mother Teresa (at least often attributed to her) in this thread so I am posting this (it may also help others in the face of adversity):
> 
> 
> _People are often unreasonable, illogical, and self-centered;
> ...



I've always liked that quote. Good post!!


----------



## Bunny77 (Jan 30, 2007)

Country gal said:
			
		

> For the life of me, I can't understand it. There seems to be some underlying tension regarding the two hair styling options. People can agree to disagree and it would avoid these long threads. I wear my hair in it's natural state. My hair just thrives more without chemicals. I couldn't perm and color my hair without seeing some type of damages.
> 
> I see really healthy heads on the board from naturals and relaxed folks. I don't feel that perms are all bad just bad for me. The DC members have long, healthy permed hair. I also see the naturals representing too.



See what happens when a bunch of women with a lot of degrees starting getting all deep and scientific?   

 I tell ya though, as confusing as it might get, I'd rather have a board with that type of discussion instead of some of the crap I see on a board like, say, the BET forums!

And I don't know, but I didn't think this thread was a relaxed vs. natural debate compared to others I've seen. For the most part, it seemed people were saying that we should get away from focusing on our hair being difficult or bad or whatever and work on maximizing what we can do with it instead of being concerned about what we can't do.

But maybe that was just me.


----------



## patient1 (Jan 30, 2007)

Nappywomyn,

I thank you for your post about the children. I do think we can change minds in ONE generation. I'd go further and say we can change our own minds within our lifetime.

Minds...not behavior.

I've yet to find the posts that equate natural hair with love of blackness or relaxed hair with a lack of pride.

I've yet to find the posts that equate natural hair to bringing one closer to the Most High.

What I have found are lots and lots of threads where we seek, on some level, to accept ourselves as we are and then go from there.

What I am also finding a lot of is projection. Words getting put into people's mouths, forced between the lines, mass esp, etc. because, in the end, much of what comes out of one's mouth is what's on one's MIND.

My bottom line is this, do the work that's necessary to change your mind about what is, right NOW, inherent to a lot of our heads. Relax it, press it, texturize it, lock it, weave it, shave it off, whatever. 

The outside is rather inconsequential in the face of what's going on inside. I don't press or relax my children's hair. That's my choice. If another mother chooses to press or relax their child's hair, I'd hope they'd do it from a place of acceptance ("Let's do something different...) NOT correction(Let's fix this mess.").

As a woman, mother, lover, writer, artists, teacher, daughter with natural hair, it has NEVER been my goal that we'd be homogenous in the ways we wear our hair. I show appreciation for what looks attractive and healthy in my eyes. I've made a conscious choice to spend more time here than on np.com because I'm comfortable in my hair choice and wanted to commune with women of color regardless of what THEY chose. I didn't want the hair segregation 24-7. And I've met some wonderful women here that make me glad for having made the decision.

But the unwillingness to CHOOSE a different belief and really work at transforming the mind, it baffles me. You can like what you like and do what you do and still make room to embrace the differences. 

It doesn't matter where it started...who got the ball-rolling...it's very clear who's at the controls now. So what are we gonna do with this power?

p1


----------



## DragonPearl (Jan 30, 2007)

patient1 said:
			
		

> As a woman, mother, lover, writer, artists, teacher, daughter with natural hair, it has NEVER been my goal that we'd be homogenous in the ways we wear our hair. *I show appreciation for what looks attractive and healthy in my eyes. I've made a conscious choice to spend more time here than on np.com because I'm comfortable in my hair choice and wanted to commune with women of color regardless of what THEY chose. I didn't want the hair segregation 24-7. And I've met some wonderful women here that make me glad for having made the decision.*
> p1


I appreciate what you said because this was precisely my reason for joining an integrated hair board.  I too have met wonderful women here that I would not have met otherwise.  One thing I learned through all the hair forums I have patronized is that how a woman wears her hair is not a very good indication of who she is or of any deeper qualities she may have.


----------



## navsegda (Jan 30, 2007)

patient1 said:
			
		

> Nappywomyn,
> 
> I thank you for your post about the children. I do think we can change minds in ONE generation. I'd go further and say we can change our own minds within our lifetime.
> 
> ...



Patient, I have not had a chance to tell you this before but I want to say it now.  I love reading your posts because they are always very thought provoking.  I think you have a lot of wisdom to offer and it definitely shows, regardless of what your opinion may or may not be on the matter.


----------



## cocoberry10 (Jan 30, 2007)

Candy1978 said:
			
		

> I have asked God more than once why did he make our hair like this. Then I realized that God is perfect, and he doesn't make any mistakes. First of all our hair was made for the climate that we are originally from ( Africa). I prayed that God would help me to accept my hair, and love it the way He loves it, and help me to take care of it. Our hair is what it is , Naturally Dry, and thus we have to keep it moisturized. I believe that you can  have a simple regimen to grow your hair out, and that you don't have to use like 50 products. My regimen is simple....I suggest just praying for acceptance..because Our hair isn't going to change....lol



This is definitely the truth!


----------



## Sistaslick (Jan 30, 2007)

navsegda said:
			
		

> Patient, I have not had a chance to tell you this before but I want to say it now.  I love reading your posts because they are always very thought provoking.  I think you have a lot of wisdom to offer and it definitely shows, regardless of what your opinion may or may not be on the matter.



Agreed, agreed, agreed.  I stalk patient1 regularly.  She's always thoughtful, passionate, and tactful.  Plus she's the one who showed us that locs can be undone and worn free with hair and length intact.  I sure learned something that day.


----------



## patient1 (Jan 30, 2007)

Jessy55 said:
			
		

> I appreciate what you said because this was precisely my reason for joining an integrated hair board.  I too have met wonderful women here that I would not have met otherwise.  One thing I learned through all the hair forums I have patronized is that *how a woman wears her hair is not a very good indication of who she is or of any deeper qualities she may have*.



Okay!!! I learned this very quickly after I went natural. I've run into some earthly demon men with gorgeous LOX. I've met nut jobs with perfect twas and lovely coils...If anyone doubts they need to join a few natural sites. Go to life management on np.com for starters....or do a search on Lauryn and Erykah. 

eta: I was young and naive when I returned to my natural hair @19. I really thought, at first, that men with natural hair were somehow connected to me or something. You get dissed by a few of them or knocked to the ground as they stampede to the nearest non-Black and you wake up quick. As far as relaxed heads, are we really going to argue about the race pride of women like Oprah Winfrey or Sista Souljah? Does Lauryn no longer love us with her China bob wig?

We need to really release ourselves and one another from this mess. Today!

p1


----------



## patient1 (Jan 30, 2007)

Ahhhh, thank you Navsegda and Sistaslick!! That really means a lot. 

p1


----------



## atlien (Jan 30, 2007)

mango387 said:
			
		

> Hello.  My name is Mango387.   My hair was so rolled up on my little head that when I saw a Polaroid from my birth date I was like  .  I think it was not as wiry, but I have never seen a newborn with hair that actually looked kinky like mine did.  My dad is the only one who refers to my newborn hair as curly and that is only because he loves me .




My niece was born with a head FULL of thick tightly packed coiled strands of hair. My little cousin hair was the same way. I have seen many babies in my family born with this type of hair. Their hair is very soft to the touch, but from a distance it looks like 3C-4A natural hair.


----------



## DragonPearl (Jan 30, 2007)

patient1 said:
			
		

> Okay!!! I learned this very quickly after I went natural. I've run into some earthly demon men with gorgeous LOX. I've met nut jobs with perfect twas and lovely coils...If anyone doubts they need to join a few natural sites. Go to life management on np.com for starters....or do a search on Lauryn and Erykah.
> 
> eta: I was young and naive when I returned to my natural hair @19. I really thought, at first, that men with natural hair were somehow connected to me or something. You get dissed by a few of them or knocked to the ground as they stampede to the nearest non-Black and you wake up quick. As far as relaxed heads, are we really going to argue about the race pride of women like Oprah Winfrey or Sista Souljah? Does Lauryn no longer love us with her China bob wig?
> 
> ...



Yes indeed.


----------



## Enchantmt (Jan 30, 2007)

Sistaslick said:
			
		

> Agreed, agreed, agreed.  I stalk patient1 regularly.  She's always thoughtful, passionate, and tactful.


----------



## Hidden_Angel (Jan 30, 2007)

412 posts?!


----------



## Cayenne0622 (Jan 30, 2007)

Please watch this clip.  It breaks my heart. 50 years later...same results. 
http://www.mediathatmattersfest.org/6/a_girl_like_me/


I'm scared to read this thread.  When it first started, there was only one page and the tone was so mellow.  Now its gotten huge and from the last page of posts I'm guessing some opinions got judgemental.  When I have some time I plan to read the thread because it will be interesting to read so MANY varying opinions.  I don't know about the whole idea of God giving blacks the thick, kinky, densely packed hair because of the climate in Africa.  There may be no reason at all for it.  Does God really need a reason?  I guess I would expect that middle easterners (i.e. Iran, Iraq, Pakinstan, etc) would have the same type of hair because of the very hot climate as well.  I dunno. erplexed   

In the end, I hope all of this will result in us loving and respecting each other more.  Not caring about what choices another black woman makes for her or her daughter's hair (as long as its healthy, well-groomed hair).  As a community, we have to be more uplifting to each other.


----------



## Country gal (Jan 30, 2007)

I don't judge a person by their hair. I judge them by what comes out of their mouths. When someone makes positive statements abouth their hair I assume they do have a strong sense of confidence in themselves and hair. When I hear folks constantly bad mouthing their hair, I think it is negative talk. Stinking thinking. The power is in the tongue.

I always grew up with a mother telling me how much she loved me and my hair. My hair could do things that her fine hair could not do. I learned to think that I had really nice hair. I usually don't complain about my hair unless I am just bored or PMSing. I never grew up thinking I hate my hair but love someone else's hair. My hair is what it is and I love it. I just wish more women felt as empowering as I do about their hair. I am not speaking of the board members but folks in my everyday life. I hear so many black women can't grow long hair. When really our hair grows all the time but some of us are not retaining it.


----------



## JewelleNY (Jan 30, 2007)

*I think this thread is great and a fresh of air    Why people want to read a message board where everyone agrees is beyond me 

I appreciate all of the responses as many of us have been at the same place as each other throughout our lives.  I, too, wore the shirt on my head as a child to swing and flip    I just recently stopped relaxing, I am just kind of tired of feeeling the need to burn my scalp for straight hair that is not growing out of my head and never will.  It has taken me a long time to come to this place and this board has contributed tremendously to my decision.  I don't know if I could have done it otherwise.  And, I do have two Mizani relaxers sitting on my bathroom floor in case I change my mind 

Like someone else said, I was always a rebellious child, challenging in my mind what I was told and what was my reality.  I asked why the men watched sports while the women cooked on holidays?  Why the white kids filled the advanced classes and minorities poured from the "slow" classes?  I wondered why people go to church and shout, why do we have to wear clothes, why do parents spank and say that hitting is wrong, why do men have to be the head of the household, and on and on    This is me, this is who I am, so naturally I have always wondered why do we put chemicals on our hair that burn and damage our hair?  Why do we press our little's girls hair?  Why is straight better?  Why would we rather walk around with thin, crisp hair, than the beauty that God gave us?  

My Mizani tubs still sit on the bathroom floor *


----------



## Bublnbrnsuga (Jan 30, 2007)

JewelleNY said:
			
		

> *I think this thread is great and a fresh of air    Why people want to read a message board where everyone agrees is beyond me
> 
> I appreciate all of the responses as many of us have been at the same place as each other throughout our lives.  I, too, wore the shirt on my head as a child to swing and flip    I just recently stopped relaxing, I am just kind of tired of feeeling the need to burn my scalp for straight hair that is not growing out of my head and never will.  It has taken me a long time to come to this place and this board has contributed tremendously to my decision.  I don't know if I could have done it otherwise.  And, I do have two Mizani relaxers sitting on my bathroom floor in case I change my mind
> 
> ...



Jewelle, the Mizani tub may still be in your home, but at least you are recognizing there IS something deeper to this hair thing.  You are questioning your motives for relaxing and going natural. This is great and healthy and I applaud you for this. 
Heck, there are times I consider getting another relaxer but then I am like, for what? To make my hair more so called 'manageable?' To be pampered? To have swanging hair that flows in the wind? To have more chemical burns all in the sake to get straight hair? Been there done that, got a t-shirt and everything. I think we as black people will always have remnants of issues we thought we dealt with a long time to creep back up, but that's just being a human.


----------



## TwistNMx (Jan 30, 2007)

classimami713 said:
			
		

> I am going to be real: I am frustrated with my hair because it is taking a lot of effort to grow out. I do sometime feel it isn't "fair" that other races can just have hair without all the extra stuff I have to do. I personally don't feel that I am forcing my hair to be something it doesn't want to be, but it is still taking some effort to grow it out. I definitely love my hair but fighting for length is hella frustrating.


I agree with *everything* you said....and dealt a bad hand...period!!! 
And others won't admit it, but I'm not white-washing a thing here!


----------



## JewelleNY (Jan 30, 2007)

Bublnbrnsuga said:
			
		

> Jewelle, the Mizani tub may still be in your home, but at least you are recognizing there IS something deeper to this hair thing.  You are questioning your motives for relaxing and going natural. This is great and healthy and I applaud you for this.
> Heck, there are times I consider getting another relaxer but then I am like, for what? To make my hair more so called 'manageable?' To be pampered? To have swanging hair that flows in the wind? To have more chemical burns all in the sake to get straight hair? Been there done that, got a t-shirt and everything. I think we as black people will always have remnants of issues we thought we dealt with a long time to creep back up, but that's just being a human.


*Thanks so much Bubbln, I have a gut feeling that I won't be using the relaxer at all but it does help get me through this transition.  It can be hard at times because I am so used to relaxing that it just comes natural at this point.  I think many of us have relaxed so much that it is a part of our normal routine, you stop thinking about and just do it.  I love Countrygal's thread a while back about being prepared to go natural.  You guys have all been so inspriing to me I can't thank you enough 
And thank you for posting pics, you are my numero uno hair inspiration   and I can't wait to get to where you are!!!   I am doing a long transition because I love long hair on me but I am pretty excited!  I just picked up a tub of hair meringue from Ricky's NY and can't wait to try it out.  

BTW:  I just love you new siggy pic, just beautiful *


----------



## facets (Jan 30, 2007)

atlien said:
			
		

> *My niece was born with a head FULL of thick tightly packed coiled strands of hair.* My little cousin hair was the same way. I have seen many babies in my family born with this type of hair. Their hair is very soft to the touch, but from a distance it looks like 3C-4A natural hair.


Mine was the same when I was a baby. I had a fro. My brother had the straight, then wavy-wiry hair. His hair is still straighter than mine. I don't think our hair has changed much at all.

My older son has darker curlier hair than the younger. I wish we didn't put so much value on degree of curl and/or kink. I like the variety in human appearance, it would be horribly boring for everyone to have the same hair, etc. even if society places false value on certain types.

FTR, Type 4 is just as "wash and go" as any other type of hair. It's just fear of criticism, not fitting in, not being appealing by straight or loosely curled hair standards  that makes some ppl think otherwise.

It's sad that so many ppl have been deluded(Including myself when I was much younger) into believing that decent hair ends at type 2 or 3. Hair is not difficult. The hard thing is shedding the warped perceptions & loathing.


***
I think it is healthy to get this sort of thing out into the open, no it's not PC and Afro-centric to admit but, imo, some discussion and analysis is much better that letting it fester in the heart.

I had some shame of my hair when I was young, my mom pressed my hair and once we(a group of friends) got caught in a downpour and saturated. Everyone else had relaxed, natural 1,2,or 3 hair,or braids. While everyone else went limp or wavy, etc, Mine proceeded to shrink from a sleek neck length bob to an amorphous sponge-cloud. 

It's hilarious to me now but the horror and embarassment I felt took me *forever* to get over. Some of my AA friends clowned me the hardest.

Another time years later(in my 20s) I was wearing weave extensions and definitely due for a trip to the salon. It was superwindy and the weave hair was blowing all around, revealing seperations, tracks, new growth etc... I was waiting in line for the bus to campus and this homeless guy(AA) starts cracking weave jokes and getting increasingly louder, after a minute or so(I was praying so hard for the bus to arrive) he goes "Hey you, i know you hear me<drunken/insanelaughing>..why dontcha just go on and get yursef a natural or something?!" the bus came just seconds after but again like the 'incredible shrinking 'do' in middle school, i wanted to become invisible again. ppl on the bus were looking confused and amused.

As silly as these incidents might sound, I feel like they were messages for me...
No disrespect to the hardcore straighteners(Like my mom)&relaxies but I know it's not for me. Once I started making friends with my natural hair, I felt more confident and cared less and less about what others thought. Even when I went back to relaxing temporarily I didn't have that old sense of relief and transformation that I used to. I found that I had actually grown to prefer the vitality and humor of my own texture. The relaxer was just too deadly serious, sedate, and whipped for who I had become.

Each to her own and I've seen some of the most gorgeous relaxed and blowdried heads ever here @ LHCF but I feel each woman has to experiment to find what type of styles/treatment make them feel the happiest and most beautiful. For some, it'll be a straightened or texlaxed 'do, while others may need to commune with their natural hair to reach that peace & heightened self-esteem.


----------



## firecracker (Jan 30, 2007)

JewelleNY said:
			
		

> *I just picked up a tub of hair meringue from Ricky's NY and can't wait to try it out. *


 
 Let me know how you like that curly meringue chica.


----------



## JewelleNY (Jan 30, 2007)

*Just wanted to add that even with the ups and downs, this thread has literally re-inforced for me my decision to transition   I am so glad we have such inspiring women on this board *


----------



## JewelleNY (Jan 30, 2007)

firecracker said:
			
		

> Let me know how you like that curly meringue chica.


*I will      I am dying to try it but I have such a small amount of new growth after just 9 months.  I don't know how it will work with the relaxed ends but I'll find out Saturday, haha!!!*


----------



## navsegda (Jan 30, 2007)

Sistaslick said:
			
		

> Navs, it kinda seems that your logic requires someone to explicitly voice their particular reasons for relaxing.  And that reason only, is the final proof and/or truth for that person at that time.  Only by that person admitting or voicing that particular reasoning can it be said that this reasoning is valid.  From this standpoint, the individual herself is the final authority.  The reasoning behind the actions are as concrete as the answer given.  But here, the predisposing, enabling, and reinforcing factors that may be governing the behavior are essentially ignored.
> 
> the fact that many people are following a "social script" when they relax and may not truly be fully aware of the deeper social roots of their actions.  In this case, many will not admit that their relaxing comes from something beyond them and their manageability issues simply because they are not aware of it.
> 
> *Edit:  I have deleted the some of your response because once again, I have surpassed the character limit.*


Now that I've had enough time to get off rampage mode (hahaha) and have my Mariska Hargitay fix, I think my first answer could have been more developed the first time around.  I personally feel that I owe you more than what I gave you.

I do not believe that just because someone says something *isn't* true that that means they are always telling the truth (the same is true for the contrary, just because someone says something *is* true doesn't mean it is).  Human beings can lie.  They can even lie with their facial expressions (for instance, there are certain muscles around the eyes and in other areas of the face where you can often tell if someone is really smiling at you or just faking).   Sometimes even human beings do not understand their own personal feelings so I definitely see where you are coming from about people not being able to admit something that they are not aware of.  It's kinda like asking if an insane person actually KNOWS he or she is insane?

Thus, I believe that the individual is the authority in cases where the person is being truthful with you and has a good grasp on her knowledge, self esteem, and levels of consciousness in her mind.  But in some cases there doesn't have to be an authority and there doesn't have to be a certainty (I will get to this later).  If someone voices her reasons for relaxing and she IS educated about hair issues, sane, aware, and telling the truth, then that makes her the authority for your certainty.  But if someone does not voice her reason for relaxing then you do not know what she feels or doesn't feel with any certainty at all.

Here is where the certainty/authority issues become shaky.  I'm sure several of us have had people lie right to our faces.  At face value, if I think someone is acting the way she is because of any particular reason and she denies it, I still cannot say with absolute certainty that she is lying.  The only thing I can say with certainty is "Well, I think she really does have a problem with her hair and that is why she relaxes but I don't know that for sure."

I also believe that this hair query is a deeper psychological issue for MANY people.  Many people do follow a social construct when they relax and some may be aware of this, some may not.  However, many who relax may not be following any type of social construct or suffering from a self esteem issue, they may just be doing so on their own personal accord.  For some it may be much deeper than a manageability issue (I said myself that there are other ways to manage your hair without relaxing).  However, for some others, the level of (perceived) manageability really may be all it is (maybe people are going for not just what is manageable but for what is MOST manageable or the EASIEST to manage in their opinion).

I feel that trying to say for certain that someone does anything to their hair based on the views of many others leads us into slippery territory.  People can internalize things based on what they hear from someone in the environment.  Sometimes if you say something enough times even if it isn't true, someone may decide to believe it.  So if you wrongly perceive that someone has a self esteem issue who really doesn't and you repeatedly drill all this stuff into her head (in an abrasive manner) it may shake her confidence and she may start believing that she is just being a conformist and/or she is rejecting certain elements of her race (even though you may not have said this), which could lead to her questioning other areas of her individuality, and could subsequently lead to her becoming depressed about her hair and making decisions about her hair that could hurt her in the long run.   On the contrary, what you say may not have a negative effect on her at all (especially if you were cordial; a lot of the time how our message is taken depends on how it is delivered).  But if it did have a negative effect, it would be like when some psychologists convinced women that they were raped based on observations they'd made from other people.  They did the research and personal interviews and they saw that many women who were raped yet somehow had repressed their rape growing up exhibited certain types of telltale behavior.  Thus, they used the same methods they used to evoke these repressed memories in women who were actually raped on women that they mistakenly thought had been raped based on showing behaviors or making statements that were similar to the ones who truly had been.  Some of these women "saw the light" in a sense that they truly believed that they had been raped just to find out later that these "memories" were planted into their heads.  These psychologists made something they interpreted into a big deal/issue when it should not have been in the first place and thus they were somehow responsible for the damage on these girls' lives (and anyone else's they may have falsely accused of raping them), even if their initial intentions were good.

**Note:  I am in no way saying that having an issue with your hair is in any way nearly as traumatic as being raped.  

With that being said, I think this also applies to other psychological issues (such as many black women's views or self esteem issues with hair).  It has been shown by word-of-mouth testimonies, research, and various other methods that many women do have a problem relating to this matter.  Thus, based on this, we could say that many women who are relaxed do so because they are following (whether blindly or not) some social construct of beauty.  However, we cannot diagnose someone on an individual basis on what may hold true for many others without more information than a comment she may have just made about her hair.

Now, let's say someone (let's call her Exhibit A) does have self esteem issues because of her hair and is well aware of this.  Based on what you know to be true about other people having self esteem issues about hair, you may bring up some questions or points that could help her overcome these issues.  She could deny them coming and going and swear up and down she has no problems.  Your head may be telling you she is lying but it still wouldn't solve anything to argue any further because some people are too close-minded or stubborn to admit the truth.  In this case, NO ONE is the final authority because the individual is lying to you and you may feel that she is, but you just cannot say beyond a shadow of a doubt that she is with 100% certainty.  I mean, you could make her take a polygraph but those won't hold up in court because people know how to trick them hahaha.  What I'm saying is that everything isn't black and white.  It's not always a case of the individual is the final authority or the observer is the final authority or the community is the final authority.  It's ok for there not be a final authority.  It's ok not to be certain of everything.  Sometimes there are just things we will never know for certain and we would waste our time and energy trying to say for sure that a particular thing is what it is because of X, Y, or Z.

Now, Exhibit B.  She makes a negative comment about her texture and because this comment is the same that many others who have issues with their texture have made, you proceed to tell her that she has deeper underlying issues because in your head you feel she is.  For her, it is true that she only made this comment this time about hating her hair because she is the one who chose to manipulate it the wrong way that day when she and her natural hair had been getting along just fine otherwise haha.  And for what it's worth, I'll tell you that Exhibit B really didn't have any underlying deeper issues just because of that one comment.  So in this case, who is the final authority?  She is.  Does that mean that all you have learned about other people who do in fact have self esteem issues/are following a construct with their hair is any less valid?  No.  It just means this person is the exception and you may find many others as well.

And last but not least you have Exhibit C who you think has a problem with her texture and it turns out that she even admits she does *after* you've brought up helpful information.  I am going to inform you that Exhibit C is telling the truth and she's not just agreeing with you to make you stop talking lol.  Now who is the final authority?  She is.  However, you were the initial authority on this case because it turns out that you were right all along.

Cliff Notes Version: Sometimes we are right, sometimes we are not.  That's what we know for certain.  Sometimes someone is the authority on letting us know the truth but sometimes there isn't anyone to give us truth or a definite answer so we can just accept that and move on.  There are many mysteries to be had in life.


----------



## Dee-Licious (Jan 31, 2007)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Oh gosh NAVS!!! That's a dissertation  ... now I'm off to read it because I just HAD to say that!!


----------



## cocoberry10 (Jan 31, 2007)

kally said:
			
		

> In the journey to acheive healthy, longer hair it is very overwhelming.
> 
> 
> Our hair is something else. I can't take it anymore.  Chemicals, heat , the wrong diet, protective stlyes, wrong products, to many of the right products , oils, grease, wrong clothing, braids,weaves,wigs, using the wrong tools, brushing,combing, using to many product, using not enough products,   you name it causes damages. Everything that you can possible do for our hair seems to cause damage. There seems that there is nothing out there that does not cause damage to our hair. Proper care is key, but you have to go to great lengths to get it and never stop once you have master the art of what it takes for your hair. This can get very costly and time consuming, because what works for one may not work other as we find out in updated threads.
> ...



Kally:

I'm sure when you posted this thread, you had no idea it would "take off" like it did.  After re-reading some of your posts, I feel your pain.  We live in a world that doesn't value our "differences" like it values other differences mentioned (blue eyes, blond hair, etc.).

I have struggled with my hair like many women on this board.  I was blessed to have a family that valued me for me, and not my hair or skin.  However, I have 2 sisters and both have more "desirable" hair (by society's standards).  No one in my family ever made me feel ugly or different b/c my hair was kinkier.  However, the world is not so kind.

My mom brought us to hairdressers.  Some were good, but some made references to the fact that my hair was more "difficult" than my sisters.  This created a complex in me, one of inferiority.  I understand that you felt bad about your hair being different.  I also was raised in a white environment, and although no one ever said anything bad about my hair (the white kids), actually they complimented me, I admit that I used to want my hair to lay flat like theirs, or have big long ponytails like them.  My older sister had "Rudy hair."  It was big and long, and almost wavy-like.  My younger sister had curls, the cutest little curls to go along with her big cheeks and big round eyes.  No matter how many people told me I was pretty, I always secretly felt an inferiority to my sisters.  My mother and father didn't tolerate the "good hair, bad hair" thing, but unfortunately the poison of the world can make you feel bad.

Now that I've found this site, I am extremely inspired.  Some days I hate my hair, some days I love it.  I look at all the beautiful heads of hair on here of different textures, and I know that it's possible.  Maybe I'll never be waistlength, but I know my hair can and HAS grown.  I am somewhere between armpit and brastrap now (may even be at brastrap if I straighten my hair).  This is the longest my hair has ever been.

Another thing I've realized is that ALL WOMEN have something that they don't like.  That's the society we live in.  Our society (US mostly) is poisoning women to believe that if they aren't "this" or "that" then they are no good.  Look at all the white female celebrities that are anorexic and hurting themselves, starving and using drugs to stay thin, so they can get a role in a movie...How crazy is that???  

Many white women don't like themselves either.  Many Indian women hate themselves, they are as color struck as Blacks.  Asian women get plastic surgery done to their eyes, so they are "occidental" (Western looking).  And even though our hair is the most "different" most women I know hate their hair.  A good friend of mine who is Jewish, with wavy (not even curly) hair, NEVER wears her hair natural.  And I've seen it natural and it's beautiful.  It's not even kinky like some Jewish people.  But she HATES her natural hair.  

Don't be mad at yourself that you feel this way.  But understand that the world has made you feel this way.  God loves you the way He made you...perfectly!

Sorry to give a sermon, but I really felt the need to post this!


----------



## CaramelMiSS (Jan 31, 2007)

cocoberry10 said:
			
		

> Kally:
> 
> I'm sure when you posted this thread, you had no idea it would "take off" like it did. After re-reading some of your posts, I feel your pain. We live in a world that doesn't value our "differences" like it values other differences mentioned (blue eyes, blond hair, etc.).
> 
> ...


 
I get told about my hair when it's compared to my sisters.  My older and younger sister have fine wispy hair, but mine, it's sooo thick and the hair dresser always had to say something, it would get to me but then I was like hey I love my thick hair.  I even had to get through middle school and high school dealing with girls that when they saw my hair natural say:  "Oh your hair is like THAT?  But it's sooo long when you have it pressed!"  Once again it was what they were though people with coily and kinky hair does not grow long, it does grow long but it's so coily you never know the true length of it.  So I think when I was in school I put alot of those black hair myths to rest, because I was living proof, but then again the thought of good hair and bad hair is so installed in a person that no matter what you do or say you can probably never change their minds


----------



## facets (Jan 31, 2007)

Hairdressers can really be crushing. I remember one who would press my mom's hair(fine type 3?) but refused to press mine because it was too 'thick and wooly.'


----------



## Cayenne0622 (Jan 31, 2007)

High Priestess said:
			
		

> I agree with *everything* you said....and dealt a bad hand...period!!!
> And others won't admit it, but I'm not white-washing a thing here!


 
I totally understand where you guys are coming from.  I've mentioned before that I come from a family of women with long hair (most of them have really thick hair).  They also come from a world of hair types 2a -3b.  Here comes little old me - BAM 4a/b (meaning kinky hair and it has the nerve to be fine on top of that).  I cried many, many, many nights as a child about my hair.  I truly believed I was unnattractive because of it.  I won't tell you the things my grandmother (Spanish, Scottish/Irish, Native American) would say where my hair was concerned.  Anyway, I don't want to do a long post but I had to say that I understand the ladies who had low self-esteem or no confidence because of their hair.

P.S. I think straightening our hair came at a time when Black people just wanted to be accepted and be like everyone else.  In this day and age individuality is encouraged and even admired so its a lot more fun and easier to rock the naturals, braids, locks, etc. Back then, that was not the case.  You were encouraged to blend in and do what everyone else was doing.  

TODAY WE HAVE OPTIONS AND WE ARE THE PERFECT RACE OF PEOPLE TO DO IT ALL - STRAIGHT, CURLY, KINKY, COLORED, NATURAL, RELAXED, PRESSED, BUNNED, SWANGIN, FRO'D, LOCK'D, BRAIDED...WHOO HOO!  We set the trends, baby!


----------



## Enchantmt (Jan 31, 2007)

I've been thinking about this some more, and I know its been discussed and proven here time and time again, but I want to restate that part of the reason some feel our hair is difficult or undesireable is because of a lack of knowledge on how to care for it. I do think part of this reason for the lack of knowledge still stems from the social mindets (black hair is ugly, you dont care for it, you hide it, it has no value or beauty, etc). A lot of ladies here have been on hairboards for a while, so many women here are enlightened about ideas of good vs bad hair and proper hair care, but In situations outside of hair forums, this isnt always the case. ( I also realize that these types of topics get old and tiresome for people who have been here for some time, but with the constant influx of new people exploring hair care for the first time in their lives, don't look for them to stop anytime soon)The "knowledge is the key" speech has been said and done before but I wanted to repost some previous LHCF threads. 

 I see women everyday with JACKED UP HEADS. Tore up. (or TOW as blosssom would say) bald patches, dryness, breakage, packed with grease or brown gel, thin from breakage and shedding. Unable to retain length because of over processing. (The hair looks nice, but they dont gain length) I don't think this is unique to my area. Increasingly I see very young children with relaxed hair and chewed up ends or braids put in too tight. I had shared before that after joining this forum I started noticing everyones hair, and when I went to vote one election, after standing in line two hours and seeing dozens of, maybe 100-200, black women and girls, only two had healthy looking hair. One was in an updo and the other was below shoulder relaxed with healthy ends. Some here have said they hated their hair until they learned how to take care of it and make it beautiful. If you havent already please visit so's thread, it's very inspirational and shows what good care can do for you:

http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=102697

To be truthful,  rational or not, when I used to see women with jacked up heads there was a part of me that used to feel a lil shame. In my own life if my own hair wasnt perfect I felt a lil shame also. Like they represented me or I represented other black folx. (I think thats why blosssoms avatar was so disturbing to folx, we dont want to see images of ourselves looking unkempt.)  I expected us to know better and to do better. I sort of got lost in the individual vs a group thing. (I think, fair or not, we are seen as a group instead of individuals but thats another topic for another thread, and if you search its been done before too.) Then one member posted some pics of a slave ship: 

http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/mapofafricadiaspora3.html

(It's from this thread: http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=78563 )

I stated in the thread then, and it still stikes me now how young everyone was. In my mind, I always saw traditional tv slave images and thought of adults being sold, I never once considered all the young ones ripped from their families. How many of us at a young age 9-16 if taken would have been able to preserve our traditions? Personal care, holidays like Christmas and Thanksgiving, our spoken language. After days and weeks in a slave hold we wouldnt even know what day it was, let alone when to observe something. Even after one was able to think beyond survival, living somewhere, not having the same vegetation and resources, maybe not having the knowledge to create the tools and products needed to care for ourselves, we wouldnt be able to make what we needed. Not able to speak or read the language of our oppressors. I no longer wonder about our loss of culture or feel shame for those who arent able to do better. I have also read accounts that after being packed in ships, forced to lay in feces, we developed sores and fungus on  our skin and scalps, which contributed more to the hair thing. As far as modern day mindsets I cant recommend enough the sisterlocks book. I'm not considering locks, but my cousin was interested in them so when I saw the book I picked it up for her. I read it first, wanting to read something positive on black hair and I'm glad I did. She doesnt really go into how to do locks, just how she came up with the system, but she does touch on a bunch of social aspects including the fact that our own people, black stylists who specialize in black hair, still cant do black hair in its natural state, and why she feels our black men feel its acceptable to ridicule their women and things of that nature. Its an interesting read. I cant speak on her credentials, but what she wrote rang true to me, and once I realized the reasoning behind our actions, I lost the ability to get heated over the choices people make, tho it stil saddens me to see the state of some of our own. 

So, anyway, self hate and social mindsets aside, I thank God for sites like this that can show black women the way to beautiful hair, whether relaxed or natural and I'm glad that all the thousands of women here have become enlightened and are in a position to teach young girls in their social sphere their true beauty and value. I think it will have a huge impact in upcoming generations.


----------



## glamgal198 (Jan 31, 2007)

UGH! I definitely understand. I grew up in an all white neighborhood, went to an all white school, and i used to ENVY all the white girls and their beautiful long hair. My mom would never let me get a perm  in my hair   so it was always a nappy little afro... until 7th grade when i saved up my money and snuck off and got perm on my own  . When my hair was relaxed it was past bra strap, and the longest it's ever been, and sooooo healthy. Ok...flash forward a year and a half later, my hair was shoulder length. I guess what im trying to say is if we leave our hair in its natural state, it will grow, it will be healthy! But when we color it, perm it, constantly put heat on it, and make it into something it's not, of course it's going to be difficult to manage and maintain. I do understand completely what you were saying. I have seen white girls in my classes tho with damaged over processed hair with major breakage (yes breakage). I have a asian friend who has damaged hair from a bad fusion weave from 2 years ago. So i guess if anyone, any race puts to much stress on their hair, they will run into difficulty. Sorry for the loooooooooooong response . Great thread!


----------



## cocoberry10 (Jan 31, 2007)

CaramelMiSS said:
			
		

> I get told about my hair when it's compared to my sisters.  My older and younger sister have fine wispy hair, but mine, it's sooo thick and the hair dresser always had to say something, it would get to me but then I was like hey I love my thick hair.  I even had to get through middle school and high school dealing with girls that when they saw my hair natural say:  "Oh your hair is like THAT?  But it's sooo long when you have it pressed!"  Once again it was what they were though people with coily and kinky hair does not grow long, it does grow long but it's so coily you never know the true length of it.  So I think when I was in school I put alot of those black hair myths to rest, because I was living proof, but then again the thought of good hair and bad hair is so installed in a person that no matter what you do or say you can probably never change their minds



I totally agree with your post. It's so on point!


----------



## JazzyDez (Jan 31, 2007)

Enchantment thanks for the great post. The comparison shots is my favorite thread!!!

Glamgal I too had long hair as a child when it was natural. My mom would keep it pressed and it stayed very long. Once I slapped a relaxer in my head (which I too begged for) it all went downhill from there.

The key is learning how to take care of your relaxed hair (which is unfortunately uncommon knowledge in our community). It is much more time consuming and expensive due to all the DC's with the high quality conditioners, daily moisture, oil etc but those things have to be continuously done to regain some of what was lost when the hair was chemically treated. For this reason, I think the "difficult" or rather high maintenance part should be expected when the hair is chemically treated. I dont think that natural hair is extremely difficult either unless you are trying to straighten it or comb it or make it lay flat. If you just "let it be" then of course it wont be difficult. Both hairstyles are beautiful to me when healthy, I just prefer my hair relaxed at this time.


----------



## kally (Feb 1, 2007)

cocoberry10 said:
			
		

> Kally:
> 
> *I'm sure when you posted this thread, you had no idea it would "take off" like *it did.  After re-reading some of your posts, I feel your pain.  We live in a world that doesn't value our "differences" like it values other differences mentioned (blue eyes, blond hair, etc.).
> 
> ...



Girl you ain't never lied. I only expected 1 or 2 pages. I am glad it did growthis big to get the help. I PMd you.


----------



## angie10 (Feb 1, 2007)

This post is wayyyy too long, and I'm not exactly sure why. I'm not about to write a book on here, I will keep it very simple. Our hair is a little hard to manage, but it has nothing to do with if you relax or leave it natural. Everyone that's saying if you leave it in it's natural state, it will not be difficult can forget about that nonsense. Your hair will be difficult or not difficult based on your mindset. If you don't understand and love your hair texture and everything about it, then it will be difficult.

I relax my hair, not because I don't like my hair texture or don't know how to manage it. I have the mindset that if my hair was to turn nappy right now, it wouldn't be a big deal. When my new growth is growing out, I don't go out of my way to make it look really slick and straight. I don't mind it looking puffy when it's air dried, I have no problem going out like that. The reason a lot of relaxed heads might have difficulty is being quick to relax all the time, resulting in overprocessed hair. Not liking their hair texture, which in turn causes them to want to relax bone straight, always greasing, geling, flat ironing to get that sleek look. That's when it becomes diffcult to manage your hair. So having relaxer have nothing to do with making your hair diffcult to manage, it will be diffcult if you make it that way.

It's okay to say that our hair is hard to manage, it's not a bad thing. It doesn't mean you don't like your hair or being black, *shoot, I know I'm not my hair*  For those saying leave it natural, and it's all fine and good with no difficulty can't be that serious. I have two daughters who're natural, and I know it's not the easiest thing to manage. I make it in a way that it's not difficult for us. I know as soon as I wash it, I have to moisturize and braid it quick or it will be hard to comb later. That's what makes it not so hard to manage. The moral of my story is, being natural doesn't mean that it will be easy, being relaxed doesn't mean it will be difficult, It's only difficult based on how you make it out to be.
I said I wouldn't write a book, and it looks like I'm heading there I have so much to say, but I will need pages and pages of this thread.


----------



## so1913 (Feb 1, 2007)

Wow...well, being that I'm 400+ posts late, I don't have much to add to what has already been said. Browsing through as much as I could, a lot of my thoughts have already been expressed on the subject.   P1 and Enchantment, I always enjoy your commentary.


----------



## TwistNMx (Feb 1, 2007)

glamgal198 said:
			
		

> UGH! I definitely understand. I grew up in an all white neighborhood, went to an all white school, and i used to ENVY all the white girls and their beautiful long hair. My mom would never let me get a perm in my hair  so it was always a nappy little afro... until 7th grade when i saved up my money and snuck off and got perm on my own  . When my hair was relaxed it was past bra strap, and the longest it's ever been, and sooooo healthy. Ok...flash forward a year and a half later, my hair was shoulder length. I guess what im trying to say is if we leave our hair in its natural state, it will grow, it will be healthy! But when we color it, perm it, constantly put heat on it, and make it into something it's not, of course it's going to be difficult to manage and maintain. I do understand completely what you were saying. I have seen white girls in my classes tho with damaged over processed hair with major breakage (yes breakage). I have a asian friend who has damaged hair from a bad fusion weave from 2 years ago. So i guess if anyone, any race puts to much stress on their hair, they will run into difficulty. Sorry for the loooooooooooong response . Great thread!


I just have to say that I love your response.


----------



## cocoberry10 (Jan 2, 2008)

Sorry for bumping this old thread, but some of the other threads in other forums made me remember this one!


----------



## MsKipani (Jan 2, 2008)

FlowerHair said:


> I agree with the others - our hair is soooo simple and easy to care for. Provided that one doesn't try to make it into something it really isn't.
> Like for instance wanting stick straight hair 365 days a year when the hair is really a 3b-4b
> 
> Imagine how difficult it would be for a white woman to achieve a perfect 4b afro every morning  She would have difficult hair for sure! And destroyed by chemicals and heat appliances!!!



Great analogy!


----------



## shtow (Jan 2, 2008)

I was thinking about this the other day. My roommate is from Bolovia. When we first met, I envied her hair very little. There was always a small part of me who was a little jealous, but only of the length. I knew that as a black women, I could attain the same length and I am reminded of this every time I log in. Anywhere, I do her hair for her all the time. The first time I did her hair, I was like, this is it? I realized my hair is _versatile. _Don't get me wrong, her hair is gorgeous, but at the same time, it is damaged and hard to style. She hasn't cut or trimmed her hair in 9 years. And although it is long, it is damaged. Could this be from her ripping her hair with a comb, not conditioning, not trimming, sleeping wildly on cotton pillowcases? Who knows. But I know one thing, she watches me do my hair every night and gets so excited because she loves the way my pin curls and my bantu knot sets comes out. So I want her length and she wants my thickness lol But all I realized is that while other girls are drooling over her hair, mines is just as beautiful, but in its own way.


----------



## sonce (Jan 2, 2008)

FlowerHair said:


> I agree with the others - our hair is soooo simple and easy to care for. Provided that one doesn't try to make it into something it really isn't.
> Like for instance wanting stick straight hair 365 days a year when the hair is really a 3b-4b
> 
> Imagine how difficult it would be for a white woman to achieve a perfect 4b afro every morning  She would have difficult hair for sure! And destroyed by chemicals and heat appliances!!!


Exactly. Black women aren't happy with what God gave them, hence the difficulties. I've come across Asian women who want locs that are as perfectly kinky and symmetrical as those of black people with 4b hair. What they go through to achieve (and they never do quite get there) and maintain those locs is comparable to what black women who want other races' textures go through.

Doing my hair is extremely easy and I'm a black woman with 4a/b hair. *Shocker* Maybe it's because I'm not trying to beat my hair into submission.


----------



## lilamae (Jan 2, 2008)

i have definately thought about this topic but now I have a new perspective. I am loving taking care of my hair and nourishing it so that I can maximize my growth potential and get it to it's healthiest state. Before I was like " why do we have to go through so much!?! 

But now I am enjoying the process very much.. especially since I have y'all to go through this journey with me


----------



## shtow (Jan 2, 2008)

Oh yeah. Lets not forget about the remains found in Africa of a women who lived a gazillion years ago. Scientist claim you can take ANYONE, and their DNA matches hers. It is believed that we all come from her, not matter what race. I do believe that we were here first. A common theory is that mankind originated in Africa and when people began to travel and live in other places, they evolved based on their new environment-hence various skin tones, hair, eye shape, etc. I don't believe African women thousands of years ago hated their hair. It is the influence of those who are/were not open minded who brainwashed others (not only black people) into believing that they are not beautiful. The same belief is currently hidden in most aspects of out culture. However I personally believe everyone is beautiful and that black women, black hair, black everything is gorgeous.


----------



## lovenharmony (Jan 2, 2008)

LocksOfLuV said:


> Amniotic fluid ehhhh....*ponders getting pregnant* J/k!!!
> 
> But yeah, that would be interesting. I wonder why black hair-care scientists hasn't profited off of this (yet)?


 
Well, in a way, they HAVE!! 
Ever heard of products made out of PLACENTA? I use it and they're great for my hair


----------



## pisceschica (Jan 2, 2008)

LocksOfLuV said:


> I think this is a good hair discussion topic and I hope others chime in.
> 
> I was watching the discovery channel one day and it was talking about how different "races" came about. Basicly life began in Africa, but diff. people migrated to diff. areas which had some effect on our features.
> 
> ...


 
It does make sense and it also explains whe africans have very dark skin and why europeans have very light skin. 

Most of africa is very hot and b/c of the proximity to the equator they get alot of direct sunlight. So we were made with a high concentration of melanin for defense against the sun 

Most of europe isn't so hot, doesn't have direct sunlight and isn't arid more specifically in the north. So their skin evolved to allow them to have lighter skin. You have people along the mediterranean that are "dark" but thats about it. Their skin (especially in the north) was lighter to allow more sun penetration of the sun b/c they don't get as much sunlight so they need every opportunity to get soak up sun, also it helps them to synthesize vitamin D that most dark skinned people cannot do b/c of the concentration of pigtment. 

Because of this that is why they people with lighter skin (not necessarily just whites) age faster than people with darker skin. That is why Austrailia with a high euruopean population and very hot climate with with direct sunlight, have the highest percentage of skin cancer of all countries.

I also read that light eyes were a mutation.


----------



## pisceschica (Jan 2, 2008)

classimami713 said:


> I am going to be real: I am frustrated with my hair because it is taking a lot of effort to grow out. I do sometime feel it isn't "fair" that other races can just have hair without all the extra stuff I have to do. I personally don't feel that I am forcing my hair to be something it doesn't want to be, but it is still taking some effort to grow it out. I definitely love my hair but fighting for length is hella frustrating.


 
I feel that way too. Naturally worn hair can be beautiful but I struggle with mine everytime I wash my hair. It seems everything we do to our hair no matter how innocent can wreck havock. I see alot of non-black women walking around with perms (curly) and color in their hair and most of the time they still have most of their hair. If I or most black women with 4a/b hair were to do that we would have nothing. 

Sometimes it just seems unfair.


----------



## ajoyfuljoy (Jan 2, 2008)

FlowerHair said:


> I agree with the others - our hair is soooo simple and easy to care for. Provided that one doesn't try to make it into something it really isn't.
> Like for instance wanting stick straight hair 365 days a year when the hair is really a 3b-4b
> 
> *Imagine how difficult it would be for a white woman to achieve a perfect 4b afro every morning*  She would have difficult hair for sure! And destroyed by chemicals and heat appliances!!!


 
We have issues when we go against the grain of what our hair was intended to look like. But knowing that, embracing that and working with that fact has helped me learn how to manage my hair and enjoy it.

Even my relaxed hair won't be "bone straight" like another races, and I'm OK with that. My relaxed hair still looks like AA hair, it's thick, kind of kinky, still has a life of its own. And I'm actually very happy about that.

Whenever I try to get my hair bone straight it ends up being a hot mess everytime!!!


----------



## Kalani (Jan 2, 2008)

I share the sentiments of those who admit frustration. Yes, I do like the versatility of my hair and when my curls are having a good day, they are quite gorgeous and often garner compliments (usually from white women with straight hair ). But still....pain in the butt!!! I can't just wake up with them looking like that, alot of time, sweat, sometimes tears, and expensive products go in to the maintenance. Even when I was natural it was a timely, pain-staking process managing it. Infact, having it relaxed has cut the time in half and makes life easier for me so not sure about all of my hair troubles coming from trying to make it do something it isn't suppose to. JMO.


----------



## newflowers (Jan 2, 2008)

This is an interesting topic. As posted on the first page, the word difficult is subjective and one's point of view colored by the negative connotation. 

I do not think my hair is difficult nor is taking care of it a chore. I'm having a blast trying a new thing every now and again (used to be all of the time). I have learned so much. This reminds me of my students who say "xyz is hard" shortly after beginning a new concept. I tell them it is not difficult; it is different and new. Learning requires using what we already know and building new information on top of that. Sometimes learning is about unlearning and relearning. For me, it was often more about what not to do at first. And that was okay - sometimes frustrating and sometimes fun but all part of the learning process.

The really great thing about learning and working to have healthy long hair is I am more focused on the total me. While I've always been something of a skincare fanatic, it is not longer just one part of me I care for - it's all of me. My hair, my skin, my diet, my exercise habits, getting sufficient rest - a synthesis of all of these have resulted in me taking better care of me.

Taking better care of me - now that's complicated, difficult, and one of the best things I can do.


----------



## longhairlover (Jan 2, 2008)

honestly I think god meant for us to wear our natural hair textures be it nappy, kinky curly or naturally straight.

If we would stay natural (im not natural) it would be easier for us and we wouldn't even have to stress on how to get it to grow and to shine etc. Because we would have our natural locks, and imo natural hair grows faster when taken care of correctly.

putting these perms in our hair makes it more fragile (and i have strong hair) it makes our hair depend on the relaxer and if you notice when we don't perm then the breakage starts.


----------



## 2Cute! (Jan 2, 2008)

No, growing hair was not meant to be difficult.  For this reason, I try to keep my regimen simple.  I take one vitamin daily, and rollerset weekly.  I don't have the time nor the energy to do much else.


----------



## ellebelle88 (Jan 2, 2008)

Excellent topic. I have always wondered about this. Why is our hair so darn difficult? Some days I become so upset that I start to cry because of how horrid my hair looks or how hard it is to detangle. Then other times I'm mad because I see so much breakage, etc. However, I do like how one of the other members put it...our hair is difficult because we try to do other things to it that wasn't meant to be. I also liked how she used the analogy comparing how difficult it would be for a Caucasian to get hair like ours. 

Yet, I really do wish that our hair was easier to manage, but when I get upset I just calm down and realize that I can fix it somehow...some way.


----------



## AvaSpeaks (Jan 3, 2008)

pisceschica said:


> It does make sense and it also explains whe africans have very dark skin and why europeans have very light skin.
> 
> Most of africa is very hot and b/c of the proximity to the equator they get alot of direct sunlight. So we were made with a high concentration of melanin for defense against the sun
> 
> ...


 

the only thing about that theory is that, if white people had longer hair because of the cold, then why is it so thin? I mean it should be long AND thick to protect them right?

Just like if our hair was "meant to be short" because of the heat, then how come it wasn't finer? Or less dense? Or softer? 

I think those are things that kinda make me think those theories are not all together accurate. 

I don't know. I still have hair issues. Regarding texture and length.


----------



## AvaSpeaks (Jan 3, 2008)

longhairlover said:


> honestly I think god meant for us to wear our natural hair textures be it nappy, kinky curly or naturally straight.
> 
> If we would stay natural (im not natural) it would be easier for us and we wouldn't even have to stress on how to get it to grow and to shine etc. Because we would have our natural locks, and imo *natural hair grows faster when taken care of correctly*.
> 
> putting these perms in our hair makes it more fragile (and i have strong hair) it makes our hair depend on the relaxer and if you notice when we don't perm then the breakage starts.


 
Yeah but see, you said the magic words in bold. One of the main problems is the misconception of what our natural hair can do. Our hair just doesn't grow because it's natural. In fact, I think natural hair is harder to care for, especially for the Type 4b textures and up. ESPECIALLY if it's shorter too.

I see so many naturals who do the big chop and then the first year, yeah their hair grows out fast. But then I see then with that same ear length/Afro puff length for like years and years. I mean I think to myself, shouldn't she have more hair by now? Shouldn't her Afro puff be bigger by now? She she have a BAA by now 

Yet it still stays the same length. I personally think that most of our hair breaks faster than it grows, especially when natural. So the question is why?


----------



## SleepyJean (Jan 3, 2008)

LocksOfLuV said:


> I think this is a good hair discussion topic and I hope others chime in.
> 
> I was watching the discovery channel one day and it was talking about how different "races" came about. Basicly life began in Africa, but diff. people migrated to diff. areas which had some effect on our features.
> 
> ...


 
I wanted to say this!!! I was afraid, though, because I know some don't believe in evolution. 

I believe the theory is:

When our ancestors were in Africa, their hair began growing slower and up(afro) overtime to adapt to the hot climate. Less hair was better for their environment. It was also better for their hair to grow up, so they would be less hot. A lot of long hair can be hot, you know??? lol.

Most(if not all) black people have ancestry in Africa. That's why we have these genetic traits.


----------



## SleepyJean (Jan 3, 2008)

AvaSpeaks said:


> Yeah but see, you said the magic words in bold. One of the main problems is the misconception of what our natural hair can do. Our hair just doesn't grow because it's natural. In fact, I think natural hair is harder to care for, especially for the Type 4b textures and up. ESPECIALLY if it's shorter too.
> 
> I see so many naturals who do the big chop and then the first year, yeah their hair grows out fast. But then I see then with that same ear length/Afro puff length for like years and years. I mean I think to myself, shouldn't she have more hair by now? Shouldn't her Afro puff be bigger by now? She she have a BAA by now
> 
> Yet it still stays the same length. I personally think that most of our hair breaks faster than it grows, especially when natural. So the question is why?


 
My afro grew 1/10 inch a year.  My natural did not retain length at all, and I wore nothing but braids.


----------



## kblc06 (Jan 3, 2008)

AvaSpeaks said:


> Yeah but see, you said the magic words in bold. One of the main problems is the misconception of what our natural hair can do. Our hair just doesn't grow because it's natural. In fact, I think natural hair is harder to care for, especially for the Type 4b textures and up. ESPECIALLY if it's shorter too.
> *
> I see so many naturals who do the big chop and then the first year, yeah their hair grows out fast. But then I see then with that same ear length/Afro puff length for like years and years. I mean I think to myself, shouldn't she have more hair by now? Shouldn't her Afro puff be bigger by now? She she have a BAA by now *
> 
> Yet it still stays the same length. I personally think that most of our hair breaks faster than it grows, especially when natural. So the question is why?




Shrinkage my dear, shrinkage....just look up miss cocoface (she's bsl w/hair that draws up to a 2-3 inch twa). In many of my photos particularly wash n gos and rollersets my hair looks like it may be 1 or 2 inches past my shoulders, max, when in actuality its about 1-2 from bsl (and I wear my bra quite low).  

*To shorthairforever:*

Did you truly know how to care for your hair in its natural state and determined what worked for it? Because I often find that when many people first transition to natural hair, they STILL continue to use methods that worked on their straight hair-i.e using combs, styling products, or they utilize styles that do not help them become acquainted with working with their hair. It has taken me this whole 2.5 year journey to find styles & products that truly work with my texture (surprisingly rollersets, natural products, braids, wash n gos, and wigs) and even then my hair has almost grown to the same length it was when I was relaxed in much less time


----------



## justcurious (Jan 3, 2008)

Hello everyone.  I am a newbie here.  I did not want to post my very first comment under this thread, but the title disturbed me.   I truly give all the ladies here props for so much info and inspiration I have came across on haircare.  That is 'ahem' when I decide to get on the ball with it .  I almost second guessed myself on this thread like "...yeah why would I go through all of this!".

Pisceschica made a good point:

*"...Because of this that is why they people with lighter skin (not necessarily just whites) age faster than people with darker skin. That is why Austrailia with a high euruopean population and very hot climate with with direct sunlight, have the highest percentage of skin cancer of all countries..."*

Women of other races probably invest a lot of time and energy in the preservation of their skin against aging where as we don't.  And again, our natural and in some cases effortless muscle definition (curves) are probably envied by women of many other races.  So in essence we all have things we feel like we have to work on and other things we can embrace.  But hating yourself for what God gave you that you have decided to work on or improve hair, or anything else regardless of your race, is self destructive in so many forms.


----------



## Crissi (Jan 3, 2008)

AvaSpeaks said:


> Yeah but see, you said the magic words in bold. One of the main problems is the misconception of what our natural hair can do. Our hair just doesn't grow because it's natural. In fact, I think natural hair is harder to care for, especially for the Type 4b textures and up. ESPECIALLY if it's shorter too.
> 
> I see so many naturals who do the big chop and then the first year, yeah their hair grows out fast. But then I see then with that same ear length/Afro puff length for like years and years. I mean I think to myself, shouldn't she have more hair by now? Shouldn't her Afro puff be bigger by now? She she have a BAA by now
> 
> *Yet it still stays the same length. I personally think that most of our hair breaks faster than it grows, especially when natural. So the question is why*?


 
I think it could be as simple as a matter of enviroment. I can't speak for everyone but i noticed that when im in Jamaica or Florida, my hair is NOT breaking and im a 4a/b natural, i don't have to putthat much product in it, i just leave it be, likewise with my skin...


----------



## AfroKink (Jan 3, 2008)

Crissi said:


> I think it could be as simple as a matter of enviroment. I can't speak for everyone but i noticed that when im in Jamaica or Florida, my hair is NOT breaking and im a 4a/b natural, i don't have to putthat much product in it, i just leave it be, likewise with my skin...



This couldn't be more true! My hair is so nice and moisturized when I'm in the Caribbean. It's more humid there.  Then on the airplane ride back to Canada  skin drying out, hair getting crispy, lips chapped..

Lys


----------



## SimpleKomplexity (Jan 3, 2008)

Our hair is simple if you ask me.  Think abotu how much time Caucasians spend on their hair.  Every morning they have to wash and condition it.  After that they have to blow dry it and apply mousse for body.  This takes almost an hour every morning.  We don't HAVE to wash our hair every day.  It doesn't turn flat just because the water hasn't touched it.  Sometimes it looks better when we don't wash it awile! It's thick, and most Caucasians hair is thin, it has natural body, and defines orginality.  It is unlike any other races' hair.  The fashion world is in a constant struggle to create something different, something edgy, something unique.  Why doesn't the hair world appreciate this?  I know I do, and I wouldn't trade my beautiful 4 (something) hair from anything in the world.


----------



## chocolatesis (Jan 3, 2008)

Crissi said:


> I think it could be as simple as a matter of enviroment. I can't speak for everyone but i noticed that when im in Jamaica or Florida, my hair is NOT breaking and im a 4a/b natural, i don't have to putthat much product in it, i just leave it be, likewise with my skin...


 

I believe this is why our hair is the texture it is. I believe that thousands of years ago people(black people) moved from the East Africa into the the interior and humid parts of Africa and the body responded to the increased moisture in the air by producing less moisture in the hair and skin, so the hair got drier and as a result, more tightly curled (the body's way of adapting to its environmet).


----------



## Soliel185 (Jan 3, 2008)

navsegda said:


> Doesn't it say somewhere in the Bible that His Hair was like lamb's wool? Lamb's wool is soft in texture, it's not like the natural texture growing out of my head now .


 
Touch an actual lamb -- it is NOT soft. That's a myth. Well..maybe a newborn lamb -- but sheep are hella rough. Also - I was born with a fro. No baby hair nowheres. I think it's fairly common among all races (and species for that matter) for that to change - just like puberty means a deeper voice, and body hair. Most people are born with soft straight hair - as they and it grow it many curl, the color usually darkens, it gets thicker. Look at a baby chicken -- it's got nothing but fuzz and then it gets longer, thicker, stronger, molts, and big ol tough feathers come out. As we age our bodies break down and we lose the glow (softness, length, fortitude) of youth. And I don't believe I'm genetically cursed or mutated for that matter. I think most AA people feel self conscious about their hair when they're in a environment where it looks like nothing around them and they know others may stare or ask questions like they're an animal in a exhibit b/c most people don't want that kind of attention. It happened to white people when the Indians first saw them, and now it happens in reverse with our hair because so few of us really wear it out in it's fluffy, kinky, curly, wiry glory. Which is not a problem -- wear your hair how you like. Think about the 70's -- everyone wore their BAA, black or otherwise and  it wasn't strange or unusual to see and I doubt any of us would have been ashamed then. But now it's an issue b/c it's not something you see on the regular and you'll stick out. Our hair's natural exuberance is out of style. Most naturals today wear braids, twists or keep it short. I think most of the pressure is from the rest of the AA community vs other races -- every white person I've ever know thinks my natural hair is the coolest thing ever. Alot of them are envious to be honest with you.  If every chick in hollywood was sportin' a BAA and every chick in KING and XXL had some big fat twists and dudes were drooling over that trust - the tides would begin to change once again. And for the record - I don't think relaxers = self hatred. I think it's just like dying your hair so long as you do it for you and in the right frame of mind.


----------



## AvaSpeaks (Jan 3, 2008)

chocolatesis said:


> I believe this is why our hair is the texture it is. I believe that thousands of years ago people(black people) moved from the East Africa into the the interior and humid parts of Africa and the body responded to the increased moisture in the air by producing less moisture in the hair and skin, so the hair got drier and as a result, more tightly curled (the body's way of adapting to its environmet).


 
You know I kinda heard something like that too. I know this Somalian woman said that alot of times, we (AA) have these wavy hair types, and think it's because of being mixed with something.

But she was saying actually it's because we are genetically closer to the East Africans, even though we believe we are more closely related to the West Africans and we get some of our hair textures from them and from some Central and South Africans groups as well. But we don't know that fact.

In fact, I will have to say that ALOT of women from Central, South and East Africa have longer hair. Like they are 6 years old with braids in their hair and then when they are 12, all the girls are hanging around SL.


----------



## cocoberry10 (Jan 3, 2008)

longhairlover said:


> honestly I think god meant for us to wear our natural hair textures be it nappy, kinky curly or naturally straight.
> 
> If we would stay natural (im not natural) it would be easier for us and we wouldn't even have to stress on how to get it to grow and to shine etc. Because we would have our natural locks, and imo natural hair grows faster when taken care of correctly.
> 
> putting these perms in our hair makes it more fragile (and i have strong hair) it makes our hair depend on the relaxer and if you notice when we don't perm then the breakage starts.



I agree with you. Oh, and your hair (in your siggy) is beautiful!


----------



## AvaSpeaks (Jan 3, 2008)

Soliel185 said:


> I think most AA people feel self conscious about their hair when they're in a environment where it looks like nothing around them and they know others may stare or ask questions like they're an animal in a exhibit b/c most people don't want that kind of attention. It happened to white people when the Indians first saw them, and now it happens in reverse with our hair because so few of us really wear it out in it's fluffy, kinky, curly, wiry glory. Which is not a problem -- wear your hair how you like. Think about the 70's -- everyone wore their BAA, black or otherwise and it wasn't strange or unusual to see and I doubt any of us would have been ashamed then. But now it's an issue b/c it's not something you see on the regular and you'll stick out. Our hair's natural exuberance is out of style. Most naturals today wear braids, twists or keep it short. I think most of the pressure is from the rest of the AA community vs other races -- every white person I've ever know thinks my natural hair is the coolest thing ever. Alot of them are envious to be honest with you.  If every chick in hollywood was sportin' a BAA and every chick in KING and XXL had some big fat twists and dudes were drooling over that trust - the tides would begin to change once again. And for the record - I don't think relaxers = self hatred. I think it's just like dying your hair so long as you do it for you and in the right frame of mind.


 

I agree with this. But so many of us now work in places or go to school or just be in places where we can't wear our hair in all of it's natural glory! I'm talking BAA's, twists, knots; the works. 

So because of that, the majority of us will still wear our hair in a chemical state. That makes a big difference. I mean natural hair is slowly being accepted, but only if the way we wear our natural hair is considered neat or "acceptable".


----------



## foxieroxienyc (Jan 3, 2008)

The Ethiopian woman who said this (AA with wavy/curly textures who are not mixed are closer to East Africans genetically) was likely very correct...  

Yes, we all know that life originated in Africa.  But most people dont realize the fact that the woman's who's remains laid the foundation to this claim was an EAST AFRICAN.   And if you really sit and think about the variations in hair texture existing and why (through migration and evolution - and not through curses from God) it makes a lot of sense.  As these original East Africans migrated SOUTH to Sub-Saharan, desert, and tropical climates the hair texture changed with what the environment called for (someone mentioned that our hair became curlier and closer to the head to protect the scalp - and this makes sense).  The ones that migrated to the lands of the East (Middle East) someone mentioned the original people of this land having textures closer to 2B-3C (and it makes sense think about the changes that climate could have caused - and remember the Middle East isnt as close to the equator as some of the other areas such as the desert lands and tropics), and then out to the colder European and Asian lands where the hair became straighter likely for warmth purposes (we afterall originally didnt necessarily worry about parading around in clothes - we're born naked into this world).

One thing I learned from years of studying the body is that the body wants to and WILL ALWAYS adapt to the demands it's given whether it's environmental or physical.

I just wanted to point that out because it has been majorly discussed in this thread.

Back to the original topic: Our hair is only as difficult as we make it.  To get your body in shape, you cant just sit on your butt and hope it will be ok, you have to WORK AT IT and NURTURE IT.  Same with our hair, if it is in a healthy state washing it and caring for it is like taking yourself to the gym for maintenance.   It isnt that hard.  It's getting "out of shape" hair - DAMAGED HAIR - back into shape that's the biggest problem.  My hair is the healthiest it's been, and I love it (relaxed and all - I even love my NG).  And maintaining that healthy really isnt that hard at all.


----------



## sonce (Jan 3, 2008)

AvaSpeaks said:


> Yeah but see, you said the magic words in bold. One of the main problems is the misconception of what our natural hair can do. Our hair just doesn't grow because it's natural. In fact, I think natural hair is harder to care for, especially for the Type 4b textures and up. ESPECIALLY if it's shorter too.
> 
> I see so many naturals who do the big chop and then the first year, yeah their hair grows out fast. But then I see then with that same ear length/Afro puff length for like years and years. I mean I think to myself, shouldn't she have more hair by now? Shouldn't her Afro puff be bigger by now? She she have a BAA by now
> 
> Yet it still stays the same length. I personally think that most of our hair breaks faster than it grows, especially when natural. So the question is why?


Well, I am natural and I am 4a/b and my hair has grown _rapidly_. My hair grows like a weed on crack and I am 100% unmixed west African. The key is proper hair care. That is where most black women, natural and relaxed, go wrong.


----------



## AfroKink (Jan 3, 2008)

chocolatesis said:


> I believe this is why our hair is the texture it is. I believe that thousands of years ago people(black people) moved from the East Africa into the the interior and humid parts of Africa and the body responded to the increased moisture in the air by producing less moisture in the hair and skin, so the hair got drier and as a result, more tightly curled (the body's way of adapting to its environmet).



This makes sense.  Why would our bodies need to produce moisture for hair when we were getting it from the environment...

Lys


----------



## AvaSpeaks (Jan 3, 2008)

sonce said:


> Well, I am natural and I am 4a/b and my hair has grown _rapidly_. My hair grows like a weed on crack and I am 100% unmixed west African. The key is proper hair care. That is where most black women, natural and relaxed, go wrong.


 
Re-read my post. I know our hair grows and my hair grows fast too.

However, my point was the reason why I think so many people still stay the same length is because their hair is breaking off faster than it is growing.  Or it breaks off as soon as it grows.

And that there is a misconception that just because your hair is natural, that it automatically means that it's going to grow. The key is like you said and like I have been saying; proper hair care. And natural hair, IMO, is harder to care for. Simply because it's more delicate.

There is a difference between hair growth and growth retention. And I believe that some people still do not know this. 

And just because your hair grows doesn't mean it's long either. All hair grows


----------



## JustKiya (Jan 3, 2008)

AvaSpeaks said:


> Re-read my post. I know our hair grows and my hair grows fast too.
> 
> However, my point was the reason why I think so many people still stay the same length is because their hair is breaking off faster than it is growing. Or it breaks off as soon as it grows.
> 
> ...


 
I have to disagree that natural hair is more delicate than processed hair - logically, that makes no sense, as most chemical processes REQUIRES you to destroy and rebuild the bonds in the hair, and anything broken down is going to be weaker than the orginal, as well as a little thinner, because some of the outer shell of the hair is lost. 

I think that - if you treat natural hair as it is (Do what your hair wants you to do, as a poster with some GORGEOUS twists has in her siggy - I can't remember your name girl, but I drool over your hair!) and don't try to make it into something it's not - it's just as strong and you don't HAVE to baby it or treat it any more delicately that you have to treat processed hair. 

But if you are trying to force your hair into a different mold - heck yeah, you're going to have retention issues - it's a natural side effect (pun sooo not intended!  )

And I TOTALLY agree with you that a lot of people (a LOT) aren't aware of the huge difference between growth and retention. Growth is what your hair does, retention is what you have to do - and understanding the boundaries of your hair is a very important place to start.


----------



## sonce (Jan 3, 2008)

AvaSpeaks said:


> And that there is a misconception that just because your hair is natural, that it automatically means that it's going to grow.


Um, your hair _does_ automatically grow, however this is not because it is natural--it is because you are alive. Whether or not this growth is retained is the problem. As far as retention goes, you are right about the misconception but you are wrong about the reason. Natural hair does not automatically retain length because it cannot take care of itself. You have to take care of it, so length retention is thus not automatic and instead depends on your competence and ability.



> The key is like you said and like I have been saying; proper hair care. And natural hair, IMO, is harder to care for. Simply because it's more delicate.


This doesn't make any sort of sense. How can hair that is virgin and undamaged by any chemicals be more delicate? As a natural-haired woman, I am telling you that natural hair is not harder to care for. Women are incompetent when it comes to hair care, _especially_ natural hair care, and then want to blame the hair for being natural. What you do to your hair is what will determine its growth retention and health. So, if your hair is breaking and not retaining length, stop the excuses and look at your own hands for the reason. Plain and simple.


----------



## Kurlee (Jan 3, 2008)

This is a very good question OP. To be honest, I dunno the answer, but I think it is true, that our hair takes much more "work" than other hair types to get the same results. They wash go, colour every two weeks and their hair is like MBL. If i did that my hair would be the length of my eyebrows.erplexed


----------



## AvaSpeaks (Jan 3, 2008)

sonce said:


> Um, your hair _does_ automatically grow, however this is not because it is natural--it is because you are alive. Whether or not this growth is retained is the problem. As far as retention goes, you are right about the misconception but you are wrong about the reason. Natural hair does not automatically retain length because it cannot take care of itself. You have to take care of it, so length retention is thus not automatic and instead depends on your competence and ability.
> 
> This doesn't make any sort of sense. How can hair that is virgin and undamaged by any chemicals be more delicate? As a natural-haired woman, I am telling you that natural hair is not harder to care for. Women are incompetent when it comes to hair care, _especially_ natural hair care, and then want to blame the hair for being natural. What you do to your hair is what will determine its growth retention and health. So, if your hair is breaking and not retaining length, stop the excuses and look at your own hands for the reason. Plain and simple.


 
If you want to disagree, that's fine. However, please don't assume things like that my hair is not automatically growing or that I am making excuses or anything of that nature.

I know what to do with my natural hair. And I know how to care for it. However, I was really speaking from the point of view that alot of people have. We are saying the same thing.

I have always said in various posts, that one of the reasons why we don't retain alot of length is because of how we style our hair, whether it's natural or not.

I know what to do with my hair. And I'm not making excuses. However, since we are all in this boat together, it would just do my heart a little justice if your tone was a little bit softer toward me, thanks.


----------



## PinkSkates (Jan 3, 2008)

> Originally posted by *nappywoman*
> I have to disagree that natural hair is more delicate than processed hair - logically, that makes no sense, as most chemical processes REQUIRES you to destroy and rebuild the bonds in the hair, and anything broken down is going to be weaker than the orginal, as well as a little thinner, because some of the outer shell of the hair is lost.


 
Thank you NW! There is no freakin' way my natural MBL hair is more fragile and delicate than my hair was when it was relaxed with harsh chemicals, thinning and APL.


----------



## AvaSpeaks (Jan 3, 2008)

pinkskates said:


> Thank you NW! There is no freakin' way my natural MBL hair is more fragile and delicate than my hair was when it was relaxed with harsh chemicals, thinning and APL.


 
You know what guys, that's why I said, *"I Think".* I never stated this as fact.

Relaxed hair may do more damage, but I still feel that Natural hair is still harder to care for.

Or in other words, natural hair is not as easy to care for as some people may think. 

Is that better wording?


----------



## MissLawyerLady (Jan 3, 2008)

I look at it this way, our hair may require more care and pampering to stay healthy (as opposed to their anything goes hair) but our *skin* is naturally tanned- other folks have to spray it on, our *lips* are luscious- other folks have to inject and plump, and our *backsides* are bootylicious- no plastic surgery needed!  

Shoot, 3 out of 4 ain't bad at all!


----------



## JustKiya (Jan 3, 2008)

AvaSpeaks said:


> You know what guys, that's why I said, *"I Think".* I never stated this as fact.
> 
> Relaxed hair may do more damage, but I still feel that Natural hair is still harder to care for.
> 
> ...


 
:hug Not trying to jump all over you (seriously, tain't my style) but I still have to gently disagree. Natural hair is _VERY_ easy to care for - if you accept the limitations of your hair, and don't try to turn it into something it's not and if you care for it CORRECTLY - and most people simply don't know what that IS. 

Caring for natural hair and caring for chemically processed hair are two different things, with VERY different requirements - whether the natural hair is bone straight or kinky.


----------



## sonce (Jan 3, 2008)

AvaSpeaks said:


> If you want to disagree, that's fine. However, please don't assume things like that my hair is not automatically growing or that I am making excuses or anything of that nature.
> 
> I know what to do with my natural hair. And I know how to care for it. However, I was really speaking from the point of view that alot of people have. We are saying the same thing.
> 
> ...


When I used "you"/"your" in my post, I didn't mean _you_ personally (I didn't even think you are natural b/c comments like yours usually come from relaxed/texturized women). I meant it in the generic sense, which is actually poor grammar anyway. I should have used "one."


----------



## Crissi (Jan 3, 2008)

JD2'd said:


> I look at it this way, our hair may require more care and pampering to stay healthy (as opposed to their anything goes hair) but our *skin* is naturally tanned- other folks have to spray it on, our *lips* are luscious- other folks have to inject and plump, and our *backsides* are bootylicious- no plastic surgery needed!
> 
> *Shoot, 3 out of 4 ain't bad at all!*


 

AMEN! Oh and ur puppy is adorable!


----------



## AvaSpeaks (Jan 3, 2008)

sonce said:


> When I used "you"/"your" in my post, I didn't mean _you_ personally (I didn't even think you are natural b/c comments like yours usually come from relaxed/texturized women). I meant it in the generic sense, which is actually poor grammar anyway. I should have used "one."


 

I am natural!!! I am natural!!!  


Alot of things I say from personal exprience; breakage, growth retention, natural hair styles, etc.

I am natural!!! And I'm sensitive  

I guess I'm gonna have to load a pic


----------



## AvaSpeaks (Jan 3, 2008)

nappywomyn said:


> :hug Not trying to jump all over you (seriously, tain't my style) but I still have to gently disagree. Natural hair is _VERY_ easy to care for - if you accept the limitations of your hair, and don't try to turn it into something it's not and if you care for it CORRECTLY - and most people simply don't know what that IS.
> 
> Caring for natural hair and caring for chemically processed hair are two different things, with VERY different requirements - whether the natural hair is bone straight or kinky.


 
And I agree with you.

However, I also agree with myself that natural hair can be harder to manage, if you don't know what your doing.

And it can be harder to manage if you do. Same with relaxed hair.

I know what I am saying in my head but it's not coming out right


----------



## sonce (Jan 3, 2008)

AvaSpeaks said:


> I am natural!!! I am natural!!!
> 
> 
> Alot of things I say from personal exprience; breakage, growth retention, natural hair styles, etc.
> ...


Ok, no need to load a pic. I believe you that you are natural--I just wasn't aware of that fact when I posted the response in which I used the "you"/"your" throughout. Anyway, it seems you are having difficulty with your hair, which is totally natural (ha! no pun intended). How long have you been natural? It does get easier if you believe that your hair can be long and easy to manage, and keep working towards that goal by building a regimen that works for you.


----------



## cocoberry10 (Jan 3, 2008)

At the end of the day, I guess we've just got to learn how to work with what God gave us.


----------



## sonce (Jan 3, 2008)

cocoberry10 said:


> At the end of the day, I guess we've just got to learn how to work with what God gave us.


 I think that's a good moral to this thread.


----------



## lollyoo (Jan 3, 2008)

My opinion is this-
Our hair is the way it is because God created it that way, its beautiful and versatile.
I think the problem with our hair is due to fact that we do a lot of stuff our hair to alter its natural state.
I am african and have to say I do not believe the theory about africans not growing hair, when I was living in africa have seen different hair lengths.

Also for those that quote I corinthians- about women growing hair long this need to be translated in context.
If you are a bible scholar (although am not), you would know that paul wrote this letter at the time that the pegans (sp), men were growing their hair and the women were shaving the hair, they were practising some immoral acts (according to the bible) like having sex in the temple, individuals of same sex having intercouse, men wearing women'sclothing etc.
so paul was telling the followers of christ not be like them, i.e men should wear hair short,and women wear hair long.

Also I have to also add that concept of long hair may vary from women to women and also what their husband likes (biblical times)
So for a 4a-4b long hair is a big hair, for 1a is flowy, this is what makes each person unique, we cant all be the same it will be to boring, if only we accept ourself and forget about what society thinks we should be.

To add more- theory of evolution is nonsense. Dawin, started this theory at the time, he was not achieving much in life, he was also drawing away from God and started questioning God's existence.
The theory was also at the height of the white suprimacy theory,hence the reason why he suggested that everyone was black before and white evolved from black, to make it seems like been white was superior and of an advantage.

No one can say for sure whether we are all from africa. In fact a recent discovery channel discovered some homo sapiens that are thought to be red hair and have long nose.
Another thing that makes Dawins theory of evolution flawed, it describes the fact natural selection involves development of intermediate species and till date no fossils of an intermediate specie has been found.

We should all look at ourselves as a spectrum, God created each one differently from blond 1a to dark 4b etc, and all different with their own uniqueness.


----------



## charmtreese (Jan 3, 2008)

cocoberry10 said:


> At the end of the day, I guess we've just got to learn how to work with what God gave us.


 
Exactly!!! And if that doesn't work get a relaxer!!!


----------



## tocktick (Jan 3, 2008)

kally said:


> What I am saying is that God never intended for their to be pain during labor. Eve messed it up for us all. To my knowlege women still experience pain during delievry and have to rely on pain killers to stop it.
> 
> How does one have a pain free delivery? With out medicine, meditation, etc...
> 
> ...



our hair on its own did not inspire the hatred some black people have for it. it was the slave master (and whites during the slavery era) who initially taught blacks that their characteristics - nose, lips, skin and hair - were ugly and inferior to white ones. now a lot of black people have had their brainwashed ancestors pass down the message that black hair is ugly (as well as everything else). this is how you get *generations *of black women trying to get straight hair, even black men conking their hair. lets not forget that socialisation in western society has meant many of us have come to aspire to the beauty ideal that is prominent here (white skin, long hair, fair eyes & hair etc). i strongly doubt pre-slavery black people were cursing out their hair and lamenting why god "cursed" them for their nappy hair. i'm not saying that every black woman who straightens their hair is self-hating but imo, some of us didn't start thinking of out hair as "difficult" until we were socialised to believe it was.


----------



## nappity (Jan 3, 2008)

Our hair is not difficult- our accepted perception of what represents perfection is warped.


----------



## bravenewgirl87 (Jan 3, 2008)

*I think our hair only seems unmanageable because we are now having to take control of it. Imagine what a good hair stylist goes through each hair visit. My family members have been using castor oil and coconut oil for years, eating proper food, drinking water, etc., long before LHCF. A lot of the thing we do now are just time-honoured traditions in other parts of the world or to other cultures. When I take care of my body from the inside while simultaneously taking care of my hair, the process just becomes easier. After a while, it won't seem like such a heavy load.
*


----------



## senimoni (Jan 3, 2008)

I won't speak on everyone but for me, I'd say yeah...it is that difficult...I don't think attempting to comb it out should be some 2 hour event but thats just for me...personally.


----------



## Avyn (Jan 3, 2008)

I have not read through all of the posts yet, but I have had the EXACT same thoughts as the original post. I know that our hair is beautiful and that God doesn't make mistakes, and we have to treat it well and all of that....BUT I still ponder over the differences between our hair and other races and why that difference exists. I have heard about the rationale of being protected from the heat, but I think about the extremely hot temperatures in the Middle East and wonder why the same logic didn't apply to them. This is a question I have wanted to do some research on. Is it a generational curse that can be reversed, or is it a blessing of versatility and (historical) protection from the elements?

I like my hair, sometimes its frustrating (esp. since the BC), but MANY women and men of every race are frustrated by and have insecurities about their hair as well.  

GREAT THREAD!!

I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking about this.


----------



## nappity (Jan 3, 2008)

jdub said:


> I have had the EXACT same thoughts as the original post.  I know that our hair is beautiful and that God doesn't make mistakes, and we have to treat it well and all of that...*.BUT I still ponder over the differences between our hair and other races and why that difference exists*.  I have heard about the rationale of being protected from the heat, but I think about the extremely hot temperatures in the Middle East and wonder why the same logic didn't apply to them.  This is a question I have wanted to do some research on.  *Is it a generational curse that can be reversed, or is it a blessing of versatility *and (historical) protection from the elements?
> 
> I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking about this.








Quiet as its kept - other races wish they had our attributes.And what generational curse??? Are you talking about Cain ? cause if you are- he and his died during the flood. Are you talking about Noah- cant be he was a drunk and God still used him. Or maybe Ibrahim- the man who tried to pass his wife off as his sister?? * Curse?* Reject that thought immediately!I dont know everything about God and the Bible- but thinking that our hair is the way it is because of some "curse" is the way the slaveholder was able to subjugate the minds of enslaved Africans. I know this isn't a reading thread but I'm gonna suggest to all of you a book called " The Peculiar Institution"
I call the African contributions to society in the past and present as a blessing of versatility and forgiveness. Jesus/Yshua was a black man with this difficult hair  "like that of sheep's wool. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




(Apologies to all those hit by shrapnel during my implosion)


----------



## Avyn (Jan 3, 2008)

I say generational curse in response to the original poster's statement:

_*I firmly believe that God did not design our hair to be so fragile. I believe that someone way back in the day messed it up for us.* I never heard of other races having to tie up their hair in silk or satin to prevent it from spliting or having to add oil etc... I know they have issues to but not as fragile as ours._

Some people believe that individuals can "inherit" misfortune, and a tendency to specific types of weaknesses from their ancestors (as a result of a sin comitted by the ancestor) by what is referred to as a _generational curse_.  Under this theory some people are "predestined" to be prone to have certain weaknesses or repeat the mistakes of their parents, grandparents, etc. unless the curse is broken.  I could go on with examples of this, but that's for another topic on another forum.

I'm not saying that our hair is the result of a generational curse, I'm just saying that in pondering the difference the thought expressed by the original poster (in bold above) has crossed _my_ mind, as well.  

I know that might not be a pro-black statement and point a finger towards self-hatred, and everything else that has been stated.  *Ducking from the oncoming rebukes!*  I'm just saying what has crossed my mind.  I LOVE being AA and I wouldn't want to be any other race, have never desired to... but I do wish I could wash and go and grow without all the extra steps.


----------



## nappity (Jan 3, 2008)

jdub said:


> I say generational curse in response to the original poster's statement:
> 
> _*I firmly believe that God did not design our hair to be so fragile. I believe that someone way back in the day messed it up for us.* I never heard of other races having to tie up their hair in silk or satin to prevent it from spliting or having to add oil etc... I know they have issues to but not as fragile as ours._
> 
> ...



My sincerest apologies- 2u jdub
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



Maybe the original poster is no longer on the board. IDK
Her opine or vent was one-sided. In spite of its frailty its still the most versatile of all hair types.I'm glad that we have raised ourselves up to the collective consciousness that Europeans' standards of beauty are warped. 
IMO, every race has to take extra steps for something- we have a natural SPF of 30. Who else can claim that? I hope no one bashes you for going through what we all have had to struggle. But it is in the struggle that we find out who we really are. and accept it. and love it.


----------



## AvaSpeaks (Jan 3, 2008)

jdub said:


> but I do wish I could wash and go and grow without all the extra steps.


 
Here, here! Like I know that vitamins are important to health and having healthy hair. But seriously, other races, especially the women, are not popping anywhere between 3-9 different pills everyday or every other day. Our diet, meaning AA, is not that undernourished :fat:


----------



## AvaSpeaks (Jan 3, 2008)

sonce said:


> Ok, no need to load a pic. I believe you that you are natural--I just wasn't aware of that fact when I posted the response in which I used the "you"/"your" throughout. Anyway, it seems you are having difficulty with your hair, which is totally natural (ha! no pun intended). How long have you been natural? It does get easier if you believe that your hair can be long and easy to manage, and keep working towards that goal by building a regimen that works for you.


 
 I've been natural for years. 10 years I think.

I just want my hair to grow longer than it is. That's all. It's the same length natural or relaxed. It doesn't matter. I just want it to grow. I know what I have to do and I am doing it as well.


----------



## nappity (Jan 3, 2008)

AvaSpeaks said:


> Here, here! Like I know that vitamins are important to health and having healthy hair. *But seriously, other races, especially the women, are not popping anywhere between 3-9 different pills everyday or every other day.* Our diet, meaning AA, is not that undernourished :fat:



 why do you think that *our race* is the one popping 3-9 pills a day? How do you know what other races do behind closed doors? Im vegetarian- I get all my nutritional needs met through my food. No supplements nothing and that goes for MANY people of color. *Vitamins/Minerals are supplemental- taken only if you possess a deficiency* . I dont think its the African American Community that keeps GNC and Vitamin Shoppe and Geritol blue chip stock market companies. I believe we do support McDonalds very heavily. _Anyway- whats your point? Are you on the board as a provocateur? Are you a cyber-bully? Or are your statements sincere and you are trying to work this out? _
My point is that with the proper products and the right tools and the right technique you CAN retain growth_ in spite _of the frailty. So there is no inherent difficulty! Whats _difficult_ is being 10% of a mass population that subliminally sends messages that we are not okay as we are.


----------



## dinaaike (Jan 4, 2008)

jdub said:


> I have not read through all of the posts yet, but I have had the EXACT same thoughts as the original post. I know that our hair is beautiful and that God doesn't make mistakes, and we have to treat it well and all of that....BUT *I still ponder over the differences between our hair and other races and why that difference exists*. I have heard about the rationale of being protected from the heat, but I think about the extremely hot temperatures in the Middle East and wonder why the same logic didn't apply to them. This is a question I have wanted to do some research on. *Is it a generational curse that can be reversed, or is it a blessing of versatility and (historical) protection from the elements?*
> 
> I like my hair, sometimes its frustrating (esp. since the BC), but MANY women and men of every race are frustrated by and have insecurities about their hair as well.
> 
> ...


 
This is a REALLY good, thought-provoking thread.

JDub and AvaSpeaks, your thoughts and frustrations are reasonable and valid. I, for one, think the differences and difficulties you speak of *actually exist.*  What may be getting missed is the fact that these differences are few drops in an ocean of versatility. 

It is easy to complain about extra effort to care for kinky hair, but there are many traits that we were never permitted to choose: height, gene pool, eye color, bone structure, etc. To say that others have an easier time with hair is to ignore that they have a more difficult time with so many other things that *you* have easier.  They may lament having to use self-tanners and risk skin cancer to achieve your toasty hue. It is just one of the many weights that create the balance we live with.

IMO, God gives us things we do not always appreciate to instill in us the ability to accept that which we cannot change. People have always wanted--and will always want--to alter something about themselves, but the proof is in the code. Your genetic code--your DNA--will always reveal who you really are, whether you accept it or not. So you can make peace with what God offers and see how easy things are when you let him handle "his business", or you can meddle with it and frustrate yourself . 

When we're ready to be thankful, I believe, he'll be there to show us how good things can really be.

Excellent responses on this thread. It's great to see so many different angles. Nappity4b! <wags finger> somehow I knew I liked you.


----------



## Cheleigh (Jan 4, 2008)

dinaaike said:


> This is a REALLY good, thought-provoking thread.
> 
> JDub and AvaSpeaks, your thoughts and frustrations are reasonable and valid. I, for one, think the differences and difficulties you speak of *actually exist.*  What may be getting missed is the fact that these differences are few drops in an ocean of versatility.
> 
> ...



 BEAUTIFUL post *Dinaaike*


----------



## SleepyJean (Jan 4, 2008)

kblc06 said:


> Shrinkage my dear, shrinkage....just look up miss cocoface (she's bsl w/hair that draws up to a 2-3 inch twa). In many of my photos particularly wash n gos and rollersets my hair looks like it may be 1 or 2 inches past my shoulders, max, when in actuality its about 1-2 from bsl (and I wear my bra quite low).
> 
> *To shorthairforever:*
> 
> Did you truly know how to care for your hair in its natural state and determined what worked for it? Because I often find that when many people first transition to natural hair, they STILL continue to use methods that worked on their straight hair-i.e using combs, styling products, or they utilize styles that do not help them become acquainted with working with their hair. It has taken me this whole 2.5 year journey to find styles & products that truly work with my texture (surprisingly rollersets, natural products, braids, wash n gos, and wigs) and even then my hair has almost grown to the same length it was when I was relaxed in much less time


 
Yes. I only wore my hair in braids. I took them down weekly and biweekly.


----------



## cocoberry10 (Jan 4, 2008)

I just wanted to add “If you love it, it will grow” and “if you love it, it will love you back”


----------



## Afrikaisi (Jan 5, 2008)

cocoberry10 said:


> I just wanted to add “If you love it, it will grow” and “if you love it, it will love you back”


 
I have learned this recently.  I may seem crazy to my husband, but I actually talk to my hair, I try to replace my bad thoughts about my hair when it doesn't want to cooperate with me.  Hence, my hair has a mind of its own, and I need to start listening to it.  I need to start eating the right foods and drinking enough water.  Our hair really does communicate with us.! Like I said, I know it sounds crazy, btw - my hair doesn't literally talk back.


----------



## Southernbella. (Jan 5, 2008)

nappity4b said:


> Our hair is not difficult- our accepted perception of what represents perfection is warped.


 
I think that about sums it up.


----------



## FineChyna (Jan 5, 2008)

Isis said:


> I believe we have the most beautiful, versatile hair in the world


 
i totally agree

but depending on what days you catch me i won't agree with this:



> . Haircare can be easy once we learn how. The same applies to all hair types


 
secondly is "our hair" really because of climate? because how do you explain people from India, south america and so forth not having our hair texture?

i'm not 100% sure i ever agreed with that.

i know a few church going people have told me our hair is either a curse or to make us stand out from other people for a reason. i can't remember what bible chapters/verses so excuse my vagueness.


----------



## Southernbella. (Jan 5, 2008)

FineChyna said:


> i totally agree
> 
> but depending on what days you catch me i won't agree with this:
> 
> ...


 


That's not directed at you...rather at the unenlightened people who told you that our hair might be a curse.


----------



## FineChyna (Jan 5, 2008)

lauren450 said:


> That's not directed at you...rather at the unenlightened people who told you that our hair might be a curse.


 
the only other time i heard the curse story was from a white supremacist so i never took it personal. i just remember thinking "that stinks that we all gotta have nappy hair cause some other folks messed up" but that was waaay before i ever heard of natural hair.


----------



## Candy_C (Jan 5, 2008)

God never give you more than you can handle..

with the right techniques and mind set, hair isnt hard to take care of


----------



## AvaSpeaks (Jan 5, 2008)

nappity4b said:


> _*Anyway- whats your point? Are you on the board as a provocateur? Are you a cyber-bully? Or are your statements sincere and you are trying to work this out? *_
> 
> 
> > We are you always jumping on me?  I am so tired of you always jumping or me or questioning my motives. You never understand anything I'm trying to say in my post, whenever I say "all" or "most" you take it as I mean everybody.
> ...


----------



## AvaSpeaks (Jan 5, 2008)

dinaaike said:


> This is a REALLY good, thought-provoking thread.
> 
> JDub and AvaSpeaks, your thoughts and frustrations are reasonable and valid. I, for one, think the differences and difficulties you speak of *actually exist.* What may be getting missed is the fact that these differences are few drops in an ocean of versatility.


 
I normally praise my hair but these kinds of threads bring these kinds of deep feeings out of me.

I mean I love being natural, but only because of the natural hair type I have NOW. I hate to say it but it's true. If my hair was natural like it was as a kid, I would never had stayed natural this long. 

I hate that I still feel this way, but that's me and my issues, nobody else. I think it could be a form of self-hate that I have and I think lots of women, especially dark-skinned sistas still have trouble dealing with some of these same issues in regards to their hair. But then when I get off this board, I look in the mirror and love the fact that I'm have this beautiful brown color with this great, versatile hair. 

I know some people would look at this as me hating being black or something. That's not the case, moreso just tired of this short hair and still feeing ugly, and wishing it would grow much, much longer. I don't know what it is or what I can do about it but I am working on it.

But I know having my hair grow longer with really help me with my self-esteem. And I know there are others like me on this board and reading this board that feel the exact same way; they are just not posting or saying that they do. 

I don't know, just an honest post. Go ahead, flame me. I'm tired of fighting


----------



## PinkSkates (Jan 5, 2008)

> Originally posted by *AvaSpeaks*
> I normally praise my hair but these kinds of threads bring these kinds of deep feeings out of me.
> 
> I mean I love being natural, but only because of the natural hair type I have NOW. I hate to say it but it's true. If my hair was natural like it was as a kid, I would never had stayed natural this long.
> ...


----------



## charmtreese (Jan 5, 2008)

Awww Ava, I get what you are saying! 

I know a lot of black women that have the same feelings as you.  Im not natural, but before I really started caring for my hair I had many of the same feelings and it took me a minute to see that my hair is/was not difficult.  I had to re-educate myself about my hair.  Even now I still have days were Im at a lost, but that's okay! The relationship you have with your hair is your's, and if some days you feel its difficult and have to vent and questions why then sista you do it.  HHG


----------



## nappity (Jan 5, 2008)

AvaSpeaks said:


> nappity4b said:
> 
> 
> > _*Anyway- whats your point? Are you on the board as a provocateur? Are you a cyber-bully? Or are your statements sincere and you are trying to work this out? *_
> ...


----------



## dinaaike (Jan 5, 2008)

AvaSpeaks said:


> *I mean I love being natural, but only because of the natural hair type I have NOW.* I hate to say it but it's true. *If my hair was natural like it was as a kid, I would never had stayed natural this long.*
> 
> I hate that I still feel this way, but that's me and my issues, nobody else. I think *it could be a form of self-hate* that I have and I think lots of women, especially dark-skinned sistas still have trouble dealing with some of these same issues in regards to their hair. But then when I get off this board, I look in the mirror and love the fact that I'm have this beautiful brown color with this great, versatile hair.


 
Well you certainly aren't the only one who feels this way! I'm sure a lot of us can remember being told as children how difficult our hair was. 

I still have memories of complaints about how big my hair got after being blow-dried. I remember dreading the combing sessions because I was tender-headed. I remember looking at 3a hair and being told how "good" that hair was; the implication being that my hair, by contrast, was not good at all. I remember a time when it seemed like everyone was claiming to have "indian in their family", when you know that if they were mixed at all it was with black and blacker (I know I'm not the only one who remembers )! I remember being envious as an impressionable child of those who were "better" than me because of something I could not control.

Then I got older and began to do my own hair. I stopped relaxing (which was NEVER relaxing) and pressing and greasing it up like an oil slick. I stopped ripping the comb through it and overprocessing it for every possible treatment because it was "coarse" and "difficult" and things "might not take". I started to treat my hair kindly and it started to thank me by it's health.

Only THEN did I ask myself what people of my childhood were complaining about. Only THEN did I think they were crazy because my hair is awesome. Only THEN did it hit me that it must have always been awesome because I only came with one head of hair and it never changed.

It's not a form of self-hate AvaSpeaks, it's just your memory of what you experienced at the mercy of those who couldn't do better because they didn't know better.




AvaSpeaks said:


> I know some people would look at this as me hating being black or something. That's not the case, moreso *just tired of this short hair and still feeing ugly, and wishing it would grow much, much longer*. I don't know what it is or what I can do about it but I am working on it.


 
Give it time, honey! Watching hair growth is like watching paint dry. You know it's happening, but you can't prove it unless you mess it up by poking at it.

Hair grows. You can't stop it. You can only slow it down. You'll experience the most growth when you leave it to it's own devices.



AvaSpeaks said:


> But I know *having my hair grow longer with really help me with my self-esteem*.


 
Finally, DUH! Why do you think most of us are here?!   Don't worry AvaSpeaks, it will take years for most of us to reach our goals. Haven't you noticed that those who measure all the time usually seem to have less obvious growth than others who seem almost surprised by progress because they weren't paying all that much attention?


----------



## bellebebe (Jan 5, 2008)

I think God made mine that way because I'm such a rebel.erplexed


----------



## Blossssom (Jan 5, 2008)

cocoberry10 said:


> Sorry for bumping this old thread, but some of the other threads in other forums made me remember this one!



You so bad


----------



## Blossssom (Jan 5, 2008)

MsKipani said:


> Great analogy!



Yes, I 100% concur with Flower... our hair is only "difficult" when you insist on trying to make it do something it wasn't DESIGNED to do!

I bet Nappity (sorry if I mispelled your name, girl) has no difficulty with her hair because she wears it the way GOD intended... go figure!


----------



## Blossssom (Jan 5, 2008)

shtow said:


> I was thinking about this the other day. My roommate is from Bolovia. When we first met, I envied her hair very little. There was always a small part of me who was a little jealous, but only of the length. I knew that as a black women, I could attain the same length and I am reminded of this every time I log in. Anywhere, I do her hair for her all the time. The first time I did her hair, I was like, this is it? I realized my hair is _versatile. _Don't get me wrong, her hair is gorgeous, but at the same time, it is damaged and hard to style. She hasn't cut or trimmed her hair in 9 years. And although it is long, it is damaged. Could this be from her ripping her hair with a comb, not conditioning, not trimming, sleeping wildly on cotton pillowcases? Who knows. But I know one thing, she watches me do my hair every night and gets so excited because she loves the way my pin curls and my bantu knot sets comes out. So I want her length and she wants my thickness lol But all I realized is that while other girls are drooling over her hair, mines is just as beautiful, but in its own way.



Why doesn't she get a trim?  One thing I can't stand on other race women's heads is super long hair with see-through, scraggly ends.

It's not a CRIME to trim!


----------



## Blossssom (Jan 5, 2008)

sonce said:


> Exactly. Black women aren't happy with what God gave them, hence the difficulties. I've come across Asian women who want locs that are as perfectly kinky and symmetrical as those of black people with 4b hair. What they go through to achieve (and they never do quite get there) and maintain those locs is comparable to what black women who want other races' textures go through.
> 
> Doing my hair is extremely easy and I'm a black woman with 4a/b hair. *Shocker* *Maybe it's because I'm not trying to beat my hair into submission*.



Right on, Sonce


----------



## Blossssom (Jan 5, 2008)

lilamae said:


> i have definately thought about this topic but now I have a new perspective. I am loving taking care of my hair and nourishing it so that I can maximize my growth potential and get it to it's healthiest state. Before I was like " why do we have to go through so much!?!
> 
> But now I am enjoying the process very much.. especially since I have y'all to go through this journey with me



Yes, life is beautiful when you know how to do your own hair and not have to worry about rip-off con artists who exploit many black women's desire to have hair that looks like someone else's.

And although my hair is relaxed, I seldom straighten it anyway, and some folks don't even know I have a relaxer.

You can definitely have healthier hair and note your own progress without the scissor happy stylists trimming your hair EVERY visit, which for a lot of shop goers is every one to two weeks 

I thank God every day that he FREED me from that sh**!  I will NOT be going back!


----------



## Blossssom (Jan 5, 2008)

pisceschica said:


> I feel that way too. Naturally worn hair can be beautiful but I struggle with mine everytime I wash my hair. It seems everything we do to our hair no matter how innocent can wreck havock. I* see alot of non-black women walking around with perms (curly) and color in their hair and most of the time they still have most of their hair. If I or most black women with 4a/b hair were to do that we would have nothing*.
> 
> Sometimes it just seems unfair.



Oh, don't you worry your "pretty little head" about any of that, darlin... I live around mostly whites and those white women when young, permed and colored their hair and thought nothing of it... advance 30/40 years... they are almost BALD from doing that, so while their hair may seem to be able to sustain a color/perm simultaneously during their youth, trust that it's not and at the end of the day those black women who were not in their youth able to do the same thing and didn't "push the issue" will have more hair on their head than their white counterparts 

You're the first natural I've heard complaining about caring for her hair, however.


----------



## Blossssom (Jan 5, 2008)

ajoyfuljoy said:


> *We have issues when we go against the grain of what our hair was intended to look like*. But knowing that, embracing that and working with that fact has helped me learn how to manage my hair and enjoy it.
> 
> Even my relaxed hair won't be "bone straight" like another races, and I'm OK with that. My relaxed hair still looks like AA hair, it's thick, kind of kinky, still has a life of its own. And I'm actually very happy about that.
> 
> *Whenever I try to get my hair bone straight it ends up being a hot mess everytime*!!!



It is?  How often do you relax?  I'm at the two months' period and am beginning to "feel it".  I won't give in, though, before three months.  I won't be going four months EVER again.  I almost died!

I so agree with the first bolded.

I'll tell you all this, our hair may not grow as fast as other races because of the natural curl and because of the way God intended it to be worn, and perhaps that's the reason why it doesn't because considering how some of the styles that women here wear their house (in a free-style), if our hair did grow as fast as that of others, it would be all over the place and I bet those women would be complaining.

We would like like the Lion King!    Hair everywhere!  We should just be grateful we HAVE hair because a lot of women DON'T!


----------



## Blossssom (Jan 5, 2008)

dtachi said:


> I share the sentiments of those who admit frustration. Yes, I do like the versatility of my hair and when my curls are having a good day, they are quite gorgeous and often garner compliments (usually from white women with straight hair ). But still....pain in the butt!!! I can't just wake up with them looking like that, alot of time, sweat, sometimes tears, and expensive products go in to the maintenance. Even when I was natural it was a timely, pain-staking process managing it. Infact, having it relaxed has cut the time in half and makes life easier for me so not sure about all of my hair troubles coming from trying to make it do something it isn't suppose to. JMO.



I don't know, D... relaxed hair is easier for me, but that's all I know... I don't know if Kally has natural hair and is trying to straighten it to look like other's hair or what.

But I would have to imagine that our hair in its natural state and being styled to complement it has to be as easy as a fresh relaxer, once you figure out how that is supposed to be.


----------



## Blossssom (Jan 5, 2008)

longhairlover said:


> honestly I think god meant for us to wear our natural hair textures be it nappy, kinky curly or naturally straight.
> 
> If we would stay natural (im not natural) it would be easier for us and we wouldn't even have to stress on how to get it to grow and to shine etc. Because we would have our natural locks, and imo natural hair grows faster when taken care of correctly.
> 
> putting these perms in our hair makes it more fragile (and i have strong hair) it makes our hair depend on the relaxer and if you notice when we don't perm then the breakage starts.



And that's why I'm not perming less than three months... perm does weaken the hair but think about the result you're looking for?  STRAIGHT!  Perm has to weaken the structure of the hair for it to go south.


----------



## nappity (Jan 5, 2008)

Blossssom said:


> I don't know, D... relaxed hair is easier for me, but that's all I know... I don't know if Kally has natural hair and is trying to straighten it to look like other's hair or what.
> 
> But I would have to imagine that our hair in its natural state and being styled to complement it has to be as easy as a fresh relaxer, once you figure out how that is supposed to be.



Yup. Its all about figuring it out no matter how you choose to wear it.


----------



## Amarech (Jan 5, 2008)

> Yes, I 100% concur with Flower... our hair is only "difficult" when you insist on trying to make it do something it wasn't DESIGNED to do!



I will have to kindly disagree with this statement and all others like it. At first I was like "Yeah!!!" then I realized that it really isn't true. 

First of all, you have to define easy. For some people natural hair is easier. Being natural was not easier for me. I did enjoy it and I learned to accept my natural hair as being good in its own right. But at the end of the day, it took a lot of work to make it look the way I wanted it to. 

I know myself and what kind of work I am willing to put into my hair's appearance. I have a lot of hair (don't we all) I for one am not interested in nursing a hand and arm cramp everytime I wash.
Being natural was never about easy styling. For me, being natural was all about accepting my natural hair texture.


----------



## AvaSpeaks (Jan 5, 2008)

Amarech said:


> For me, being natural was all about accepting my natural hair texture.


 
Exactly! I know plenty of people who in college went natural, thinking it would be much easier to style their hair. But they really had to work at it, if they wanted their hair to grow longer. The ones that really didn't think about hair growth, well it kept breaking off and staying the same length and they couldn't understand why?


----------



## AvaSpeaks (Jan 5, 2008)

dinaaike said:


> Well you certainly aren't the only one who feels this way! I'm sure a lot of us can remember being told as children how difficult our hair was.
> 
> It's not a form of self-hate AvaSpeaks, it's just your memory of what you experienced at the mercy of those who couldn't do better because they didn't know better.


 
Not just memories as a child. I mean there are times when I am praised for my hair and then there are times when I get the worst treatment from my own people.

You know how hurtful it is when 9 of your 15 line sisters asked you "are you going to get a relaxer after we cross?" or things like, "your afro puff is bringing us down"? 

Or even coming here and being asked if I'm natural? On natural threads because people don't understand my point? Trust me, I feel so alone in the "hair war".


----------



## SouthernTease (Jan 5, 2008)

We've been socialized to think our hair is difficult.
Work with the texture instead of against it.
That's why I threw away all my combs & brushes...
except for my trusty Jilbere shower comb that
I only use over satin cap when scritching and
once a week when I wash.
I need to practice what I preach... now if only I could 
get rid of that flat iron.


----------



## AvaSpeaks (Jan 5, 2008)

Yes, I must wear my "twisty-knots" this whole month. Or at least I'm going to try to.

I like using my comb to part my hair, because even though I work at a radio station, you know the saying, appearance is everything, blah, blah 

But yeah, I'm going to try to be more loving and nicer to my hair because it is a beautiful hair texture


----------



## dinaaike (Jan 5, 2008)

AvaSpeaks said:


> Not just memories as a child. I mean there are times when I am praised for my hair and then there are times when I get the worst treatment from my own people.
> 
> You know how hurtful it is when 9 of your 15 line sisters asked you "are you going to get a relaxer after we cross?" or things like, "your afro puff is bringing us down"?
> 
> Or even coming here and being asked if I'm natural? On natural threads because people don't understand my point? Trust me, I feel so alone in the "hair war".


 
Actually yes. My whole family has had something to say since the day I cut the rest of my relaxed hair off. I didn't know what a BC was, I just thought the contrast of textures looked dumb. So I cut it and took the comments about not looking "like nobody cares about me", about losing all my hair, about my "naps looking bad". One of my sisters still reaches for the nape of my neck and comments on my "kooka bugs".

The difference is, to me it doesn't matter.  I made this choice. I like this choice. And I stand by my choice AND original comment, some people "can't say or do better because they don't know better."  _*Just think about how many women here had to argue the point of how long kinky hair can actually grow*_ with those closest to them, right up until their hair reached out and snapped their brastraps. THAT'S when the comments stop and the questions start. Until then you're just dealing with people unwilling to let go of the concepts they learned a long time ago.

I have a saying: "When people won't pay your rent, they forfeit the right to comment on where you live." Do your thing girl! Then smile at the naysayers and politely ignore them.


----------



## cutiebe2 (Jan 5, 2008)

hair genetically was not meant to be styled


it was meant to lay on our heads and protect us from the sun

when we try to make it do otherwise its gonna cause trouble


----------



## pringe (Jan 5, 2008)

wow..there's so much to say.

Everyone has a valid and much needed to hear point. That's the beauty of it all and that's why i love boards like this.


I have a war within myself too. Because i know that the only reason you would totally HATE your hair is because you are still believing that something is wrong with Our hair.  i'm  not coming down on anyone because it was me years ago.  At times i still have to talk to myself, to realize that there's nothing wrong with me & my hair. 

When i was a child i was always told i was picky headed and had hair that didn't grow (i'm west indian). My head at a early age was pulled and tugged, permed and dry jheri curled within an inch of its life. It taught me that my hair was ugly and didn't grow but at the same time made me wish for "good and better" hair than what i had on my head. Even as an adult, i hated my hair. at times i still get down because i wonder why it takes my hair so long to grow. Part of it is my own fault. Too much manipulation & touching and prodding and not enough TLC . I finally went natural cause i couldn't take it no more. I felt i should be beautiful to anyone even with natural hair. I had strangers touching my hair telling me it was ugly @ 22. I had friends saying what the hell is that? But guess what?! The SAME people, same friends that said that then followed my trend. Now I have 3 friends who went on to be natural now! Everyone LOVES my hair now! Hmmph!

Guys, We got to get that love back for ourselves. IF you hate ur hair, then we really haven't grown as a people. EVERYONE has issues with their hair. White girls stay blow drying their hair within an inch of their lives. Asian girls are always putting permanents in their hair to make it curly. Most other races, although they won't tell you, admire the versatility that our hair affords and the fact that our hair is rule defying lol. 


Hating our hair is almost equal to hating our complexions. And we are passing that down to the younger generations. 

On the flip side i also have to say, alot of u are saying who cares about long hair. Well many people who say that have always had hair that grows pretty quick and have never gone through what girls who belong to the "short hair club" lol . ( i am a member) its true long hair isn't everything but everyone has their own opinions.

Kally, we all go through periods when our hair is getting on our nerves. Our hair does require tlc just because. I applaud u for being woman enough to state what's on ur mind and trying to reach out. never be ashamed of that. I say girl, get ur hair hooked up, do a cute little style and go out and dance. Forget all this, cause at the end of the day, its so much more than hair. 


BTW, in terms of God. God don't make NO mistakes. Period. Let's focus on healthy practices and hair friendly styles and not worry about why our hair is the way it is. It just is


----------



## justNikki (Jan 5, 2008)

kally said:


> I have a love/ hate relationship with my hair and it is beautiful. I do not try to change its natural state to much and I fully believe we can have long hair, the proof is on this board it just seems we have to work so much harder at it.
> 
> I know for a fact that once God puts a curse one someone it can be for generations to come. Take Eve for instance: Child birth was suppose to be painless, once she took the apple God said that she would experience pain and joy at the same time. All women have suffered because of it . Jesus Christ died for our sins so that we may be forgiven I fully believe this. Also there are somethings that I feel God have set in place due to past actions. This has to be one of them. Look how different our hair is.
> 
> ...


 
This entire post sounds crazy.


----------



## shtow (Jan 5, 2008)

maibaby said:


> This entire post sounds crazy.


----------



## justNikki (Jan 5, 2008)

Bublnbrnsuga said:


> *Since YT put in our heads in the beginning, that you're black and ugly with that old crazy hair, why are we, having advanced in this society still struggling with this issue? Why, because in several instances we as black people have BOUGHT INTO THOSE LIES and have decided that hey, something IS wrong with us. WE are the ones keeping this junk up. NO need for YT to do it anymore, since we are doing it to ourselves.*
> 
> By you bringing up those other issues that we as black people face is more of a justification to CONTINUE to envy other hair textures, since, hey, some black folk don't like their color, noses, lips, hips, butt, so what's the big deal about disliking my texture,too?
> 
> ...


 
Amen, Amen and AMEN!!!


----------



## AvaSpeaks (Jan 6, 2008)

Again I don't think it's my hair texture that is bothering me. I think it's the fact that my hair is still so short. If my hair was let's say at least SL, with my texture, you couldn't tell me nothing. 

But then again, there is still something off in my thinking. Because I say to myself, _"so what you trying to look like you got good hair"_ 

At least I think I'm hot


----------



## cocoberry10 (Jan 16, 2008)

Bumping this again after the Macherieamour thread. I wish we could really learn to love ourselves!


----------



## Kurlee (Jan 16, 2008)

maibaby said:


> This entire post sounds crazy.


 I think i missed the crazy part


----------



## anon123 (Jan 20, 2008)

FineChyna said:


> i totally agree
> 
> secondly is "our hair" really because of climate? because how do you explain people from India, south america and so forth not having our hair texture?



I don't know.  but I just wanted to offer a way of looking at evolutionary change since I saw several people say this.  don't know if anyone has said it before, couldn't go through all 55 pages!  anyway, a change may happen at some point in history, for example triggered by environmental factors (there are other things that can trigger it, too, like sexual selection as with peacocks). then a group moves from the environment that triggered the change.  but just because they moved from that old environment doesn't mean the changed thing is going to revert.  

take this as an example.  i am not saying this is what happened, since i don't think anyone knows what happens. i sure don't.  just a scenario to imagine. and yes, i know it's an oversimplification, i was an anthro major undergrad and had to take the bio anthro courses.  but i don't want to write a book here (and really i'm not qualified to do so). imagine kinky hair was the hair of all humans before migration out of africa.  then once some humans migrated out, for whatever reasons some groups' hair became straighter.  so that the question that might be asked might be, not what happened to make hair kinky, but what ever happened to make people's hair straight?  those now straighter haired people dispersed further around the globe and the hair stayed straighter because there was no reason for it to become kinky (remember in this scenario the "reason" is on why hair became straight, not why it became kinky).

also, traits don't really need to have an obvious evolutionary purpose.  they can be carry-alongs from something else that did have a purpose. take an example of human-induced selection as with the experiment to breed a tame fox.  humans basically selected the most tame individuals from a group and bred them, doing this for several generations.  the only thing they were selecting for was tameness.  and they got it for the most part.  but other characteristics that they had no plan for trying to get came along with that for free.  the appearance of the foxes changed as well.  so the point is that the foxes don't look different because looking different was evolutionarily beneficial.  they look different because being tame was evolutionarily beneficial and those tamer individuals had certain other characteristics that, while not prominent before, combined in this new narrower population in certain ways to effect orthogonal changes.

and like i mentioned before, there's also sexual selection.  peacocks have such large elaborate feathers that it makes them slower and easier for predators to catch and eat.  in a pretty real sense this is not beneficial.  but peahens prefer these feathers so much and are so much more willing to mate with a peacock that has them, that the sexual selection benefits outweigh the natural environment wrt predators.  perhaps some group thought straight hair was better looking.  perhaps some group thought kinky hair was better looking.

i don't know, really.  just throwing out some more ways to think about this.


----------



## krissynick (Jan 20, 2008)

zailless said:


> I am sick of my difficult hair. From straight to natural to braids to wigs to braids again. i feel like this is a raw deal. i cuss about it every now and again. forget socialization and all that crap. right now, i wish i had hair that i could sleep on and not worry about breakage, that i could take a swim in the sea and not worry about salt, go to the gym and not worry about whether i should wash everyday or not.


 

Amen thats exactly how i feel..sometimes... like especially with the going to the gym thing and swimming


----------



## krissynick (Jan 20, 2008)

LocksOfLuV said:


> I will be honest and say I honestly don't know. I still struggle with this.
> 
> It just seems like we do SO MUCH to get/retain length that other races don't have to do. It also seems like they can do way more damage to their locks then we can ever do (and have long hair) whether it is relaxed or natural.
> 
> I won't say genetics is against us. But sometimes I think, maybe, just _maybe_, we weren't meant to have long hair. But that's my opinions though.


 

oh my god you so have a point... they can blow dry the hell outta their hair more than we do and still grow way more hair than us in a few months that we will ever grow in a year... i feell that...


----------



## krissynick (Jan 20, 2008)

What I want to knwo is.. everyone is saying we are trying to work against our hair and all this stuff and not work with what we got... That doesnt make sense to me... there is obviously a reason why we are relaxing it.. we are not doing it for our health.. every black women that you meet is not ashamed of who they are and they dont necessarily hate their hair.... Its the the simple fact that is hard to do... sometiimes... I do belive other races and hair types have problems with hair.. of course we all do but i also belive that we have it the hardest.... i mean i look at other ppl complain about their hair and yes they have a right too but in my mind i always say girl.. you have it easier than i do.. but see they dont know that cause they dont have our hair.... it does take more time and effort which i have accepted and i really dont mind cause i only wash my hair once a week so... im cool but i dont belive we relaxed our hair just to look like other races with other textures.... casue if i could rock the styles i want to my natural hair without damage than do you think i would go relaxed. NO... i would not... Yes i belive god is perfect and he made us this way with no mistakes... but i do belive that there might be a specific reason behind it... like think about it... we have come a long way and we are still learning how to take better care of our hair whether it be natural or relaxed... maybe that was gods purpose just to give us something different and see what we would do with what he gave us.. god does do strange thing sometimes... i mean thinkin about it one day.... we might finally find that reason as to why our hair is like this and find much easier ways to take care of our hair.... and maybe thats what gods puprose is.... 
think about it do you really think god wants us to struggle with our hair.. he knows we want to wash and go and go swimming without worrying..im pretty sure he knows we long for that but i think there is  greater reason behind it...  

But i want to kwno from all who say oh work with ur hair and not against it... do you mean that we should never relax cause whenever i hear that phrase i wonder cause its like ... whatever you do to your hair besides washing and drying is working against your hair so i mean is that necessarily a bad thing... no.. its just how it is... i personally am relaxed and dont think i want to be natural cause first not that i hate afros but ... i dont want to be the center of attention wherever i go with a big afro .. yes i said it i dont mind what my hair is but shoot i really dont want to bring more attention to myself... i would be annoyed... and i would get tired of al lthe questions.. and also i personally like other styless and in my opinion the styling options i see for natural hair espeically the coarser 4a/ 4b type i dont like... i dont have time to braid my hair all the time and i dont like putting my hair in on pony tail puff ... and truthfully i think straigtening natural hair so often is more damaging cause u have to do it so often but like i only get a relaxer every few months... 


As far as the lenght thing goes.. i do agree it takes us much longer to acheive length than other textures nad im interested in know why..... we have to be so careful with our hair ... its get annoying at time that we have to be so careful nto to do this and not to do that .. but i think its all for a purpose.. one day we will find a way..... i mean i do feel the plight of black ppl though.. think about it we came here as slaves and we looked different ... it wasnt just our hair it was our skin color tooo... and lived in a world among ppl who were also different but hates us for the dumbest reason but anyway...that justh ow it is..

i refuse to believe that god wants us to feel all outta wack becaues of our hair.. that why i belive that he gave madame walker the knowledge to make products that will help lay our hair flatter.. Now that doesnt mean it for everybody but i feel that he gaves us options... and thats always wonderfull.. waht if there was no way to make our hair straight... so i guess im not complaining... my reason for not were my natural hair is just plain and simple styling... 

i do understand the OP frustration thats for sure...  but one day will we definitely understand why god made us specifically with this hair type.


----------



## krissynick (Jan 20, 2008)

Also not to rant but i was talking to an indian friend of my and she said she never seen a black women with long hair like down to their butt and that statement kinda hurt me... not because of what she said but because i really didnt understand the reason behind it... i have not yet come across a black women who has hair down to their butt... either... long hair yes.. waist length yes but not hair down to their butt and further... 

i was hurt cause i couldnt even explain to her why.. like i was mad cause i didnt evn know this for myself... like if there was a specific reason... i would be like oh ok that thats why but i dont even know... she doesnt care but i guess us black women do.. i mean im fine with my hair as long as its healhty and thick... i mean who wants long hair and its gonna be fine and damaged..but i do belive that one day i will achieve great lengths
one reaons is because my hair has always had some length to it... always evne when i was a kid.... its just that when i got perm that dumb lady put extra strength dudley in my hair.. now i still had lenght but over time that stuff damages ur hair... after stop going to that lady.... i started going to the dominicans and they made me trimm alot my hair off... and u know what... with in months of just going to get a wash and set and dc every two weeks.... my hair grew back just fine.... i didnt do anything but go everytwo weeks.. put a lil moisturizer on my hair here and there andmy hair was really nice.. so thats why i feel will definitely achieve a good length one day...cause now i know so much more..... im excited guys cause just thikn about it now i know how to test my hair to see if i need more protein and moisture( thanks to sistaslick) and i knwo how to roller set (thanks to mca) and all the other good things i have learned from all of you guys here on the blog... we just gotta find the one thing that pulls everything together.. we know how our hair is and the texture and how its made and what works good and what doesnt now all we gotta do is just keep trying and one day will reach the whole goal of this forum LON
G BLACK HEALTHY HAIR.

I know our hair can be difficult sometimes and yes it does take trial and error to finally get understand our hair but dont be discouraged...think about it lack of knowlege is what destroys ppl ( as per the bible) so our fight should just be to find everything we can about our hair and what works and what doesnt work...  no i dont understand why this has to be our plight as black women specifically cause as i have stated earlier others dont have it this hard but you know what thats just hwo it is and im not that frustrated that im going to give up... i get mad here and there and then i brush it off and move on.... im not gonna let it get me donw cause im on a mission


----------



## Valerie (Jan 20, 2008)

CurliDiva said:


> A very DEEP topic -- I was thinking about this the other day -- I don't have the answer, but more questions:
> 
> *Could our collective challenge at growing out (and more importantly RETAINING length) have more to do with styling choices?*
> 
> ...



I think the real issue is the amount of money black women spend on hair products, makes a lot of people very rich.  What happens if a lot of us suddenly grow extremely long lengths, there would be no need for many hair products 'suited to black hair' the industry throws at us.


----------



## AfroKink (Jan 20, 2008)

mwedzi said:


> I don't know.  but I just wanted to offer a way of looking at evolutionary change ....



Don't forget the effects that environment can have on selection.  It's been proposed that kinky hair is adaptive for certain African environments.  Afro textured hair lets a breeze pass through more easily.  It grows up (sometimes) keeping it off your neck and shoulders, helping to cool you down. (Think about the people that cut their hair off in the summer to stay cool).  Afro hair is generally dark brown or black.  The pigment in the hair that makes it dark also absorbs the UV rays from the sun, preventing them from reaching your scalp.  This is important if you live in an environment that has a high level of UV rays. (Think about which population of people have to wear hats in the summer and which population is more prone to heat stroke.)

Straight hair is more like a blanket.  It traps heat a lot better.  Blond hair does not trap  UV rays as well allowing them to reach the scalp.  This is important if you live in an environment with a lower level of UV rays like northern Europe. 

We are all "mutants".  Our DNA collects random mutations that can cause differences in phenotype (looks).  Let's say kinky haired people moved up northern Europe.  And one person got a mutation causing straighter hair.  That person could be at an advantage having more natural protection against the environment.  More protection means a greater probability of surviving longer and passing on this mutated gene to your children.

About south Asian who also live in hot environments...  It is unlikely for the same mutation (kinky--> straight) to happen twice. Reverse mutations are more rare than the initial one. (kinky --> straight --> kinky). So the mutation for straight hair would have had to happen at a point in human evolutionary history BEFORE "white", south Asian, south-east Asians people were distinct groups. 

wow, that got long.  Anyway, that's my take on it.

Lys


----------



## cocoberry10 (Jan 20, 2008)

In light of some of the other "similar" threads that popped off, especially the one about the person that posted in Macherieamour's site about her not being 100% African-American, I will say that my prayer is that all the ladies on this site can come to accept and appreciate the hair God gave them.

So many people lose their hair to terminal illness, and whether you love your hair or not, it's a blessing to have it!


----------



## krissynick (Jan 20, 2008)

cocoberry10 said:


> In light of some of the other "similar" threads that popped off, especially the one about the person that posted in Macherieamour's site about her not being 100% African-American, I will say that my prayer is that all the ladies on this site can come to accept and appreciate the hair God gave them.
> 
> So many people lose their hair to terminal illness, and whether you love your hair or not, it's a blessing to have it!


 

good point.


----------



## cocoberry10 (Apr 9, 2008)

Bumping this b/c of the other thread. No, I don't think our hair is "difficult" (as I said above). I just think it's "different" (and that doesn't have to be a bad thing)!


----------



## lunabelle (Apr 9, 2008)

FlowerHair said:


> I agree with the others - our hair is soooo simple and easy to care for. Provided that one doesn't try to make it into something it really isn't.
> Like for instance wanting stick straight hair 365 days a year when the hair is really a 3b-4b
> 
> *Imagine how difficult it would be for a white woman to achieve a perfect 4b afro every morning  She would have difficult hair for sure! And destroyed by chemicals and heat appliances!!!*





So true!!!


----------



## ladylibra (Apr 9, 2008)

cocoberry10 said:


> Bumping this b/c of the other thread. No, I don't think our hair is "difficult" (as I said above). I just think it's "different" (and that doesn't have to be a bad thing)!



thank you, i knew we'd been down this road before!


----------



## cocoberry10 (Apr 12, 2008)

ladylibra said:


> thank you, i knew we'd been down this road before!


 
Yes we have. And trust me, it won't be the last time.


----------



## CheLala13 (Jul 14, 2008)

I like reading threads like these. It makes me feel happy to have such versatile hair. On a funny note, my SO said we don't have long hair _as easily_ because we have the best features : eyes, lips, butts, pretty skin, curves...Could you imagine how stuck up we would all be if we had hair down to our butts? Like many women have said on here, CANT TELL ME NOTHIN!


----------



## Irresistible (Jul 14, 2008)

FlowerHair said:


> I agree with the others - our hair is soooo simple and easy to care for. Provided that one doesn't try to make it into something it really isn't.
> Like for instance wanting stick straight hair 365 days a year when the hair is really a 3b-4b
> 
> Imagine how difficult it would be for a white woman to achieve a perfect 4b afro every morning  She would have difficult hair for sure! And destroyed by chemicals and heat appliances!!!


This is very true


----------



## robot. (Jul 14, 2008)

LocksOfLuV said:


> I think this is a good hair discussion topic and I hope others chime in.
> 
> I was watching the discovery channel one day and it was talking about how different "races" came about. Basicly life began in Africa, but diff. people migrated to diff. areas which had some effect on our features.
> 
> ...


i've heard this exact thing, but could never remember where! do you remember the name of the program?


----------



## Keshieshimmer (Jul 14, 2008)

CheLala13 said:


> I like reading threads like these. It makes me feel happy to have such versatile hair. On a funny note, my SO said we don't have long hair _as easily_ because we have the best features : eyes, lips, butts, pretty skin, curves...Could you imagine how stuck up we would all be if we had hair down to our butts? Like many women have said on here, CANT TELL ME NOTHIN!



That's a wonderful way to look at it!


----------



## Ballerina_Bun (Jul 14, 2008)

FlowerHair said:


> I agree with the others - our hair is soooo simple and easy to care for. Provided that one doesn't try to make it into something it really isn't.
> Like for instance wanting stick straight hair 365 days a year when the hair is really a 3b-4b
> 
> *Imagine how difficult it would be for a white woman to achieve a perfect 4b afro every morning  She would have difficult hair for sure*! And destroyed by chemicals and heat appliances!!!


 
Such a creative and interesting way to think of it.


----------



## Crackers Phinn (Jul 14, 2008)

My hair ties itself in knots. 

I'm not talking about tangles, I can pull a strand of hair now and it could have 2 or 3 knots at the ends.  This is after a major trim 3 months ago because I had knots going as far as 4+ inches up individual strands. 

That's not social conditioning.

That's not me trying to force my hair to do something.

My hair friggin eats itself!

Natural hair may be easy for 'you' and 'you' and 'you', but my natural hair is becoming a pain in my ass.


----------



## JustKiya (Jul 14, 2008)

JCoily said:


> My hair ties itself in knots.
> 
> I'm not talking about tangles, I can pull a strand of hair now and it could have 2 or 3 knots at the ends.  This is after a major trim 3 months ago because I had knots going as far as 4+ inches up individual strands.
> 
> ...



 

My hair does that too. I doubt I have a single strand without at least ONE knot on it. 

*shrug* I leave em be - why cut them off when I KNOW they are coming right back?


----------



## 2themax (Jul 15, 2008)

I totally agree with you.  However, my grandmother told me that we have hair "Just Like God's" i.e. "like sheep's wool, etc.  I don't know how true that is, but God's hair is described that way in the bible.  Anyway, have you noticed how white women are trying to get their hair curly?  Years ago, they wanted it bone straight.  Our hair is the most versatile, we can wear it Curly, Wavy, Natural, Straight, etc.  We DO have the BEST hair.  It's just that society has led us to believe differently.  This is why they advertise so much as they are trying to make themselves believe something that it not true while trying to persuade others to believe the same crap.  I'll admit, some white women's hair does look very nice, but how many other ways can they wear it?  Try wearing an Afro or other ethnic styles and THEN see how it looks.  Be proud of your hair, even on those bad hair days.  Have a nice cold glass of water or your favorite drink or snack while fixing it.  Everytime you see other women admiring their hair, ask yourself, "how many other ways can she fix it?"  And then ask yourself, "how many other ways can I fix mine AND still look good.  Sorry this took so long, but I feel you.  LOL.


----------



## Crackers Phinn (Jul 15, 2008)

JustKiya said:


> My hair does that too. I doubt I have a single strand without at least ONE knot on it.
> 
> *shrug* I leave em be - why cut them off when I KNOW they are coming right back?



I get that this is in jest but detangling knotty hair when shed hair gets caught leads to breakage for me.   

Wearing a puff with knots and shed hair(because I can never get it all out) caught on the ends looks unsanitary. 

I guess my overall point is that letting my hair do what it wants to do is not necessarily the healthiest thing for my hair in general. 

The only way I can wear my hair that reduces the knots is in twists.  But twists should be an option not a life sentence. 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I don't want to rain on the nappy parade, but maintaining natural hair is not easy for everyone.


----------



## naskat (Jul 15, 2008)

Kinda a spinoff of what you are saying, but has anyone ever pondered this for instance: why are we born with straight or soft, loosely coiled hair? I have YET to see a black baby born with kinky, coily, unmanageable hair. Why can't we keep this type of hair? Personally, I think it's just the work of homeobox genes. We get to keep this type of hair for a short while because that's what we were first given but due to other factors that happened in our history another set of genes (like what they are saying about the African climate) switches on so our hair no longer grows in the loosely coiled texture that it first did. Because I mean, everyone came from Africa and some people migrated while others stayed and worked the harsh climate. If the climate wasn't a factor in changing our hair texture, then why doesn't everyone (even the whites who migrated) have the same texture of hair and why aren't we all born with the kinky, coily hair to begin with?

Someone needs to investigate this. If they already have, please post some scientific articles explaining this.




 Not everybaby is born with soft and wavy hair. I once saw a baby with tightly coiled 4b hair, and he was a newborn. I thought it was the strangest thing ever- not because of his hair type, but because I never saw a baby with such tightly coiled hair. His hair was in tight little coils the size of ball point pen. So it is not unusual.

I find the more I try to fight my hair, the more problems I have.Also, some people or other races with 1b hair amire and envy our hair. My Chinese freinds in junior high always asked me "How could I get my hair like that?"
I thought it was so strange because all the black kids called me names and laughed at me with my scarf pushed back with a big fro.


----------



## pinkchocolatedaisy (Jul 15, 2008)

Wow... I wish I had seen this thread before. I think the OP and I have similar thoughts about our hair. Now I didn't read this whole 57 page, 500+ post thread, but I have always wondered too: how come I dont' see women of other races wrapping their hair up at night??? erplexed when I say something like that around my non AA friends they look at me like  and don't even get me started on DC, etc. The only thing in common I've found among them is that they wash every day and they color, perm, fry dye, hilite their hair and it keeps on growing... they have the worst diets, don't work out and still they have long hair. I have always wondered....why do we have to do extra work? If hair is just hair, why does ours need EXTRA care? I understand ours is the most fragile.... I just don't understand how others don't break off so easily for all the things they do to it.


But I DO love MY hair!!!! And like another poster stated, we can do so much with ours. And look at how now we DO see other races that have straight hair trying to go curly and wearing cornrows and locs, etc. I think we are an inspiration. Whenever I get braids or weaves or if I wear my hair flat ironed then the next day wavy (from my not so perfect braidouts when I was relaxed) or a rollerset, I always get "how did you do that to your hair? it's so pretty... wow you wear different styles all the time.. will that work on MY hair.?" I could go on and on. So I guess it's like with anyone there are pros and cons to things. The reality it seems is that we do need to give our hair a little more TLC but then those of other races need to give their SKIN a little extra TLC. I mean, compared to some of my non AA friends, I can easily go makeup free whereas with them, they wouldn't even think of it- and with good reason. So no God didn't make any mistakes.........we all  have things about us that make us exceptionally beautiful and then other things we need to put the work in to be even more beautiful.  Besides, I am having some major FUN learning about my hair and doing things to it.!


----------



## JustKiya (Jul 15, 2008)

JCoily said:


> *I get that this is in jest* but detangling knotty hair when shed hair gets caught leads to breakage for me.
> 
> Wearing a puff with knots and shed hair(because I can never get it all out) caught on the ends looks unsanitary.
> 
> ...



No, I was being quite serious, when I asked that question. I've heard several people say that, and could never understand why it matters - esp. if you are wearing your hair curly. My knots are so tiny that unless you are staring at a single strand of hair (or feeling on it) you can't see them, at all. 

It's interesting that you can't get all of the shed hairs out - I'm not trying to diminish the difficulties you are having with your natural hair - I'm just - trying to understand them, I guess, since I've always been told I've got that extra stubborn, tangly, nappy hair, but - it's not hard for me to take care of, so maybe I really don't, eh?


----------



## nnmiles (Jul 15, 2008)

kally said:


> In the journey to acheive healthy, longer hair it is very overwhelming.
> 
> 
> Our hair is something else. I can't take it anymore. Chemicals, heat , the wrong diet, protective stlyes, wrong products, to many of the right products , oils, grease, wrong clothing, braids,weaves,wigs, using the wrong tools, brushing,combing, using to many product, using not enough products, you name it causes damages. Everything that you can possible do for our hair seems to cause damage. There seems that there is nothing out there that does not cause damage to our hair. Proper care is key, but you have to go to great lengths to get it and never stop once you have master the art of what it takes for your hair. This can get very costly and time consuming, because what works for one may not work other as we find out in updated threads.
> ...


 
I am someone who loves my hair just as much as the next person.  But honestly in the grand scheme of things, hair doesn't really matter.  However, I see your point.


----------



## lovedone_24 (Jul 15, 2008)

I just got to page 40 something I think?  The only thing I know to do is keep it simple and comment on my hair as I see it in the context of this thread: Yes, I DO find that my hair is a pain @ times. I DO long for the ability to be recreational without concern for how my hair is holding up. I DO want to easily obtain length. We can get into the psycho/sociological aspects all night, however I do believe that some women (including myself) look better with fuller, longer hair. Not every one can pull off a Halle short cut for a reason. Round, oval faces need the compliment of hair IMO. For me it is a matter of complimenting my features/face shape. I _used_ to have something  the hair I now desire before I got into heavy manipulation. The advice: leave it alone is on point!


----------



## anon123 (Jul 15, 2008)

JCoily said:


> My hair ties itself in knots.
> 
> I'm not talking about tangles, I can pull a strand of hair now and it could have 2 or 3 knots at the ends.  This is after a major trim 3 months ago because I had knots going as far as 4+ inches up individual strands.
> 
> ...



But you are wanting your hair to do something it doesn't want to do: be knot-free.  We equate knot-free hair with hair health on this board.  I actually don't think that's true.  If it were, there'd be no such thing as healthy locs.  Now I understand completely the desire for fewer knots because I am a loose-haired natural with more than an inch or two of hair.  And single knots cause complex knots which makes detangling harder.  But if I'm honest with myself, I have to admit that detangling is hard because that's not what my hair wants to be.  It doesn't want to be detangled, that's not the kind of hair I have. It wants to coil up, knot up, intertwine, wrap around itself.  And there is nothing unhealthy about that. The longer it gets the more it wants to do that and my denying it that is what makes it difficult for me.  I put up with the difficulty because I want long loose nappy hair, but I'm not going to say I don't know where that difficulty is coming from.


----------



## Sui Topi (Jul 15, 2008)

FlowerHair said:


> I agree with the others - our hair is soooo simple and easy to care for. Provided that one doesn't try to make it into something it really isn't.
> Like for instance wanting stick straight hair 365 days a year when the hair is really a 3b-4b
> 
> Imagine how difficult it would be for a white woman to achieve a perfect 4b afro every morning  She would have difficult hair for sure! And destroyed by chemicals and heat appliances!!!





naskat said:


> Kinda a spinoff of what you are saying, but has anyone ever pondered this for instance: why are we born with straight or soft, loosely coiled hair? I have YET to see a black baby born with kinky, coily, unmanageable hair. Why can't we keep this type of hair? Personally, I think it's just the work of homeobox genes. We get to keep this type of hair for a short while because that's what we were first given but due to other factors that happened in our history another set of genes (like what they are saying about the African climate) switches on so our hair no longer grows in the loosely coiled texture that it first did. Because I mean, everyone came from Africa and some people migrated while others stayed and worked the harsh climate. If the climate wasn't a factor in changing our hair texture, then why doesn't everyone (even the whites who migrated) have the same texture of hair and why aren't we all born with the kinky, coily hair to begin with?
> 
> Someone needs to investigate this. If they already have, please post some scientific articles explaining this.
> 
> ...






 Interesteeeeeeeeeeeeed


----------



## Sui Topi (Jul 15, 2008)

FlowerHair said:


> I agree with the others - our hair is soooo simple and easy to care for. Provided that one doesn't try to make it into something it really isn't.
> Like for instance wanting stick straight hair 365 days a year when the hair is really a 3b-4b
> *
> Imagine how difficult it would be for a white woman to achieve a perfect 4b afro every morning  She would have difficult hair for sure! And destroyed by chemicals and heat appliances!!!*


 
Great perspective!




naskat said:


> Kinda a spinoff of what you are saying, but has anyone ever pondered this for instance: why are we born with straight or soft, loosely coiled hair? I have YET to see a black baby born with kinky, coily, unmanageable hair. Why can't we keep this type of hair? Personally, I think it's just the work of homeobox genes. We get to keep this type of hair for a short while because that's what we were first given but due to other factors that happened in our history another set of genes (like what they are saying about the African climate) switches on so our hair no longer grows in the loosely coiled texture that it first did. Because I mean, everyone came from Africa and some people migrated while others stayed and worked the harsh climate. If the climate wasn't a factor in changing our hair texture, then why doesn't everyone (even the whites who migrated) have the same texture of hair and why aren't we all born with the kinky, coily hair to begin with?
> 
> Someone needs to investigate this. If they already have, please post some scientific articles explaining this.
> 
> ...






 Interesteeeeeeeeeeeeed


----------



## bludaydreamr (Jul 16, 2008)

kally said:


> What I am getting it is this. *I just do not feel that God org intend for our hair to be 4a/4a texture.* Yes it is beautiful, yes it is all that, but it also if very hard to maintain, whether you have a simple routine or not, you still have to look out for a lot of things to keep it from damaging compared to other races. Yes true they have their issue but not nearly as many as we do.
> 
> I really wish I did not feel this way and have asked God to change my thinking and deal with it. It is sad this I know.
> 
> ...


----------



## jahzyira (Jul 16, 2008)

to be honest i really dont think our hair is difficult its jus those damn hair products that these fake companies make for "african americans" thats effin up our hair after being on the hair boards for almost a year i can finally say that its a freaking conspiracy going around if you think about it why do most hair products geared towards african americans are full of crap for years i never knew why my hair was still dry after using pink moisture thats cause mineral oil isnt moisturizing at all but from the knowledge ive gained i know now that it takes lots of nourishing ingredients to make our hair soft and beautiful my real frustration is why isnt there a major product line for us??? altho im really amazed and excited at the black women that took it upon themselves to create the hair products that we need and i know there are some high end products geared towards aa's but why isnt there a serious company out there creating something all natural nourishing strenthening and growth promoting specifically for our hair that doesnt cost hundreds of dollars an oz????.............


----------



## cupcakes (Jul 16, 2008)

kally said:


> In the journey to acheive healthy, longer hair it is very overwhelming.
> 
> 
> Our hair is something else. I can't take it anymore*. Chemicals, heat , the wrong diet, protective stlyes, wrong products, to many of the right products , oils, grease, wrong clothing, braids,weaves,wigs, using the wrong tools, brushing,combing, using to many product, using not enough products, you name it causes damages. Everything that you can possible do for our hair seems to cause damage. *There seems that there is nothing out there that does not cause damage to our hair. Proper care is key, but you have to go to great lengths to get it and never stop once you have master the art of what it takes for your hair. This can get very costly and time consuming, because what works for one may not work other as we find out in updated threads.
> ...


 
its true,,, i have been wondering about this alot lately


----------



## cocoberry10 (Jul 17, 2008)

sweetpea99 said:


> kally said:
> 
> 
> > What I am getting it is this. *I just do not feel that God org intend for our hair to be 4a/4a texture.* Yes it is beautiful, yes it is all that, but it also if very hard to maintain, whether you have a simple routine or not, you still have to look out for a lot of things to keep it from damaging compared to other races. Yes true they have their issue but not nearly as many as we do.
> ...


----------



## MD_Lady (Jul 17, 2008)

Isis said:


> I believe we have the most beautiful, versatile hair in the world. Haircare can be easy once we learn how. The same applies to all hair types.
> 
> *God made our hair perfectly. The struggle some people have is working against their hair, trying to make it appear according to someone else's standard.*
> 
> For me, I make sure my hair journey is totally fun and it has been. That's what makes it easy and something to look forward to.


 
That is a FANTASTIC point!


----------



## 2themax (Jul 19, 2008)

Overall, I believe that we have been lied to about our hair (and other things) for soooooooo long that we had simply given up on our hair.  As a result, we have not given it the time and care that it needs out of frustration.  Those other than AA's have always been told how lovely, beautiful their hair (and other things) are and as a result, they gave it the time and care that it needed.  Therefore, they saw positive results.  After joining this website, I have learned so much about our hair and become more positive about our hair & less frustrated.  We didn't have a website like this (for us) years ago.  Now we do!  Unfortunately, the other women have had these things for years and years and didn't let on to their little secrets.  As usual, we excel in so many things.  It's always been a struggle, but we always have come out on top.  Now, take a look at your hair - long, medium or short - and say, "What do I want to do with my hair?  Do I want it longer or shorter?"  And then go for that goal.  We're also taking better care of our health with all of the hair supplements that we're taking.  It All Good!  LOL!!


----------



## pinkchocolatedaisy (Jul 19, 2008)

JustKiya said:


> I really think it's a misconception that black people are the ONLY ones who do things (chemical/mechanical) to their hair because they aren't happy with how it grows out of their hair. Black people aren't the ONLY ones who struggle to grow their hair out - we are just the ones who fight our natural texture the most.


 

I definitely agree......you are so on it, girl!


----------



## 2themax (Jul 19, 2008)

bump...I agree also.  I have visited other sites and see that there are plenty of women of other ethinicities who have hair problems.  Some are even growth problems just like ours.


----------



## Barbara (Aug 2, 2009)

Isis said:


> I don't see having kinky hair as being as curse from God. It certainly isn't in the Bible. As I mentioned, *there are white people in places like Russia, Croatia, etc. who are born with kinky hair.*
> 
> Some here have stated our hair has a more coarse texture because of geographics (Africa) and climate. So, was there kinky hair before the Biblical flood? The climate was very different on this planet before the flood--its was temperate and more tropical, the same everywhere.


 
You got that right!  Some Jews have very kinky hair.  They use all sort of products to straighten it. 





kally said:


> What I am saying is that God never intended for their to be pain during labor. Eve messed it up for us all. To my knowlege women still experience pain during delievry and have to rely on pain killers to stop it.
> 
> How does one have a pain free delivery? With out medicine, meditation, etc...
> 
> ...


 
I've heard quite a number of them make negative comments about their hair or other peoples' hair.   Don't let these comments occur on the bus.


----------



## Junebug D (Aug 2, 2009)

Our hair was meant to loc. It is difficult only because we are trying to get it to do something it doesn't want to do.  If East Asian people wanted to get & maintain an Afro, they'd be complaining and have damaged hair as well, because they'd be fighting nature as well.


----------



## Kurlee (Aug 2, 2009)

shan_2001 said:


> *Our hair was meant to loc.* It is difficult only because we are trying to get it to do something it doesn't want to do.  If East Asian people wanted to get & maintain an Afro, they'd be complaining and have damaged hair as well, because they'd be fighting nature as well.


could you elaborate ON THE BOLDED?


----------



## aquajoyice (Aug 2, 2009)

LocksOfLuV said:


> I think this is a good hair discussion topic and I hope others chime in.
> 
> I was watching the discovery channel one day and it was talking about how different "races" came about. Basicly life began in Africa, but diff. people migrated to diff. areas which had some effect on our features.
> 
> ...


Your on the right track and I believe that all of God's creature's were created perfectly. God didn't create us to fit into fashion trends.. he created us to survive in our environment and the strongest will survive. Like animals that adapt to their surroundings for survival, same thing happened to us. God didn't sit there and say "Let me make it harder for African's and give them difficult hair" I think God has bigger fish to fry than how hard it may be for us to straighten our hair.


----------



## aquajoyice (Aug 2, 2009)

jahzyira said:


> to be honest i really dont think our hair is difficult its jus those damn hair products that these fake companies make for "african americans" thats effin up our hair after being on the hair boards for almost a year i can finally say that its a freaking conspiracy going around if you think about it why do most hair products geared towards african americans are full of crap for years i never knew why my hair was still dry after using pink moisture thats cause mineral oil isnt moisturizing at all but from the knowledge ive gained i know now that it takes lots of nourishing ingredients to make our hair soft and beautiful my real frustration is why isnt there a major product line for us??? altho im really amazed and excited at the black women that took it upon themselves to create the hair products that we need and i know there are some high end products geared towards aa's but why isnt there a serious company out there creating something all natural nourishing strenthening and growth promoting specifically for our hair that doesnt cost hundreds of dollars an oz????.............


I completely feel you on the conspiracy theory. Because when I realized all the BS these companies try to sell us I was appalled. And then I realized that Blacks have always had it hard since the moments we got here. We've had to blow the top off of a lot of crap that society tried to get us to believe. And I believe that hair care is another lid that's getting blown. And what better way to make AA's feel inferior than with our looks. So make the standard of beauty to hard to attain that we do more damage than anything. Because our hair wasn't made to do certain things. So don't condemn your hair comdemn the idea that there is only one type of beauty. Because as we all know now beauty is also Black and Nappy!


----------



## beans4reezy (Aug 3, 2009)

shan_2001 said:


> Our hair was meant to loc.


 
Very interesting. Would you be able to support this assertion? I am curious to know where you drew this conclusion from. TIA


----------



## Solitude (Aug 3, 2009)

pinkchocolatedaisy said:


> But I DO love MY hair!!!! And like another poster stated, *we can do so much with ours. And look at how now we DO see other races that have straight hair trying to go curly and wearing cornrows and locs, etc. *I think we are an inspiration. Whenever I get braids or weaves or if I wear my hair flat ironed then the next day wavy (from my not so perfect braidouts when I was relaxed) or a rollerset, I always get *"how did you do that to your hair? it's so pretty... wow you wear different styles all the time.. will that work on MY hair.?" I could go on and on.* So I guess it's like with anyone there are pros and cons to things. The reality it seems is that we do need to give our hair a little more TLC but then those of other races need to give their SKIN a little extra TLC. I mean, compared to some of my non AA friends, I can easily go makeup free whereas with them, they wouldn't even think of it- and with good reason. So no God didn't make any mistakes.........we all have things about us that make us exceptionally beautiful and then other things we need to put the work in to be even more beautiful. Besides, I am having some major FUN learning about my hair and doing things to it.!


 
Yes, I have experienced this countless times. None of my non-AA friends or co-workers can wear the variety of styles that I can. They've always commented on that and I feel that their compliments are sincere.

 I had been wearing my hair in a bun every day, then I wore my hair down. My co-worker had never seen my hair & she loved it. It was bouncy and swangin'- she says hers is lifeless, with no volume & she keeps it cut short rather than to deal with it. It took her a YEAR to grow it out past SL for her wedding. 



nnmiles said:


> I am someone who loves my hair just as much as the next person. But honestly in the grand scheme of things, *hair doesn't really matter.* However, I see your point.


 
ITA with this. Before LHCF, I swear, I _*never*_ worried about my hair at all. I did it myself or got it done, and that was it. No big deal. 



jahzyira said:


> to be honest i really dont think our hair is difficult its jus those damn hair products that these fake companies make for "african americans" thats effin up our hair after being on the hair boards for almost a year i can finally say that *its a freaking conspiracy going around if you think about it why do most hair products geared towards african americans are full of crap for years i never knew why my hair was still dry after using pink moisture thats cause mineral oil isnt moisturizing at a*ll but from the knowledge ive gained i know now that it takes lots of nourishing ingredients to make our hair soft and beautiful my real frustration is why isnt there a major product line for us??? altho *im really amazed and excited at the black women that took it upon themselves to create the hair products that we need and i know there are some high end products geared towards aa's but why isnt there a serious company out there creating something all natural nourishing strenthening and growth promoting specifically for our hair that doesnt cost hundreds of dollars an oz*????.............


 
I, too, am happy to see so many women of color making fabulous, natural product for our hair. 

However, I never had a problem using the stuff that's labeled as "bad" on this board; a lot of women need _certain_ products - other women can use just about anything and their hair will still thrive. Most older women I know use all the LHCF "forbidden" products and as long as they have good hair care practices overall, their hair remains long and healthy. 

I still use mineral oil, sulfates, etc. with no problems. 

ETA: My hair is relaxed, though, so I don't know if my outlook would be the same if my hair was not chemically altered.


----------



## msa (Aug 3, 2009)

kally said:


> Our hair is something else. I can't take it anymore.  Chemicals, heat , the wrong diet, protective stlyes, wrong products, to many of the right products , oils, grease, wrong clothing, braids,weaves,wigs, using the wrong tools, brushing,combing, using to many product, using not enough products,   you name it causes damages. *Everything that you can possible do for our hair seems to cause damage. There seems that there is nothing out there that does not cause damage to our hair. Proper care is key, but you have to go to great lengths to get it and never stop once you have master the art of what it takes for your hair. *This can get very costly and time consuming, because what works for one may not work other as we find out in updated threads.




Interesting.

My hair isn't fragile nor does it get damaged from regular day-to-day care. Furthermore, my hair isn't difficult. Frankly, I think we make it much harder than it needs to be.


----------



## Junebug D (Aug 3, 2009)

beans4reezy said:


> Very interesting. Would you be able to support this assertion? I am curious to know where you drew this conclusion from. TIA




Just because of the way the strands constantly knot & wrap around each other.  Even after combing it, it still clumps together and the strands are still desperately trying to grab each other. The strands don't separate or lay in place like straight hair or wavy or slightly curly hair will. I just believe that's what it's trying to do.


----------



## beans4reezy (Aug 3, 2009)

shan_2001 said:


> Just because of the way the strands constantly knot & wrap around each other. Even after combing it, it still clumps together and the strands are still desperately trying to grab each other. The strands don't separate or lay in place like straight hair or wavy or slightly curly hair will. I just believe that's what it's trying to do.


 
Thanks for explaning...that does make sense though


----------



## melissa-bee (Oct 2, 2011)

This is a great thread.


----------



## Curlykale (Oct 2, 2011)

I was amazed when I poured some pure aloe juice or coconut oil into my hair for the first time. It was like those simple, natural substances were more suitable than ever. I started to think that it was easier than I thought.

Same things with tools and techniques. Most curly/textured heads are only meant to use our fingers or tools that are just like them, what if fine teeth combs have been invented by a Viking  (_Arulf Denman The Terrible_ )

Probably each head has a very simple way to be taken care of.


----------



## SimJam (Oct 2, 2011)

Ive mentioned this several times on this board - my mother and I cannot believe how easy my hair is to manage now that Im doing what is wants.

as a child every sunday was stressful for both my mother nad myself because it was wash day, the washing wasnt the problem, the detangling and combing was. And this was because of the products and techniques being used/ or not used in some cases - like conditioner.

once we know how to care for our hair (Im referring to our hair in its natural state) and are allowing it to do what it was intended to do, then we're all good !!!

ETA: I believe that anyones hair (regardless of race) that has been chemically altered will then need specialized care. I think as a black women with relaxed hair I was not fully cognizant of this reality - hence the overlapping of relaxers, neglect of protein and moisture etc.


----------



## LadyRaider (Oct 2, 2011)

If you try to consider it from God's perspective... why would He value long hair over short? Straight hair over kinky. I doubt the details of our hair was something He considered strongly in His plan. 

Same thing with white folk's ol' raggedy, wrinkly fragile skin. What's wrong with wrinkly pale, brown-spotted skin? Nothing in God's eyes, I'm sure. 

The characteristics that make our hair hard to manage are socially constructed. We weren't "made" to have difficult hair. It was determined by the society what is "good" and "bad."


----------



## AlwaysNatural (Oct 2, 2011)

LadyRaider said:


> If you try to consider it from God's perspective... why would He value long hair over short? Straight hair over kinky. I doubt the details of our hair was something He considered strongly in His plan.
> 
> *Same thing with white folk's ol' raggedy, wrinkly fragile skin. What's wrong with wrinkly pale, brown-spotted skin? Nothing in God's eyes, I'm sure. *
> 
> The characteristics that make our hair hard to manage are socially constructed. We weren't "made" to have difficult hair. It was determined by the society what is "good" and "bad."



Um..............................................? lol..


Anyways ontopic

I feel the same way sometimes too, (the our hair being difficult thing) especially when going swimming..hair matts up, I see just about every race just wash, condition, throw in some mouse and they're gone...i'm still in there 1/2 hr later tryna detangle and braid my hair in two. However at home, i'm fine just a bit style challenged which causes difficulty for me most of the times..


----------



## toufa (Oct 2, 2011)

Junebug D said:


> Our hair was meant to loc. It is difficult only because we are trying to get it to do something it doesn't want to do.  If East Asian people wanted to get & maintain an Afro, they'd be complaining and have damaged hair as well, because they'd be fighting nature as well.



Wow. That is some food for thought.


----------



## Crackers Phinn (Oct 2, 2011)

I don't buy that our hair wants to loc.

Based on 6 years of reading stories on this board and others, most naturals do not encounter issues with tangling or knots until they have surpassed the twa-medium fro stage.  If hair was meant to loc, it would begin doing so in the early growth stages.  

Not to mention that locs are artifically knotted and the locking to maturity process takes place over the course of months-years.


----------



## DDTexlaxed (Oct 2, 2011)

The sad thing is that God's gifts are never appreciated. We should appreciate the unique nature of of our hair and thank God that He gave us intelligence to be able do whatever we want with it. No other texture on earth can take what we do to our hair. No other hair texture is as versatile and beautiful. Besides, how do we know that other races have an easy time with their hair? Maybe they wish they had our gift. We never think of that.


----------



## Kirei (Oct 2, 2011)

Crackers Phinn said:


> I don't buy that our hair wants to loc.
> 
> Based on 6 years of reading stories on this board and others, most naturals do not encounter issues with tangling or knots until they have surpassed the twa-medium fro stage.  If hair was meant to loc, it would begin doing so in the early growth stages.
> 
> Not to mention that locs are artifically knotted and the locking to maturity process takes place over the course of months-years.



That was such a simple comment considering ALL hair will loc if you don't comb it. 

I just had to  at it. 
_________________________________________________________________
There is really no "our" hair. Once you figure out YOUR hair, you will be better off.  Yes their are many similarities in our hair but, no 2 heads are alike. 

No one GAVE me my hair, I got it through genetics and no I don't think "The Creator" gave me the most beautiful hair or black people the most beautiful hair. I really don't think He did a thing to my hair. That's b/c of my genetics.


----------



## NaijaNaps (Oct 2, 2011)

I'm leaving God out of this but...

What's one of the main reasons we want long hair? Society. We've been socialized to think that the longer our hair, the more beautiful we are. I'd also add that another reason is that longer hair connotes healthier hair. So you may want longer hair because you want healthier hair too. But you can also have healthy short hair. 

My natural hair, in it's tightly coiled mass, I don't think, was ever meant to "show" length. It wants to wrap up on itself and stay as close to my head as possible. I think that's what the above poster meant when she said our hair was meant to loc. My hair doesn't want to be straight or hang down - ever. It's me manipulating it to show length and to prevent it from coiling on itself that makes it more difficult to deal with. It's my own fault and I admit it. And I'll still continue to manipulate it. If I just let my hair loc up - like it really want to do - it'd be a breeze. I should add that even loc as we accept them in society need to be manipulated and handled to be nice and neat like we like them


----------



## Kirei (Oct 2, 2011)

DDTexlaxed said:


> The sad thing is that God's gifts are never appreciated. We should appreciate the unique nature of of our hair and thank God that He gave us intelligence to be able do whatever we want with it. No other texture on earth can take what we do to our hair. *No other hair texture is as versatile and beautiful. *Besides, how do we know that other races have an easy time with their hair? Maybe they wish they had our gift. We never think of that.



Huh? 

Over 65% or was it 84% of women have curly hair. Which can do all of the same styles we do with our hair. 

I have a friend who is Mexican and White can relax her hair with *gasp* a black relaxer. It just knocks some of the kink out and makes her hair *gasp* a 3B otherwise she is a 4a. Her mother is white and her father is mexican.


----------



## Guitarhero (Oct 2, 2011)

aquajoyice said:


> I completely feel you* on the conspiracy theory. Because when I realized all the BS these companies try to sell us I was appalled.* And then I realized that Blacks have always had it hard since the moments we got here. We've had to blow the top off of a lot of crap that society tried to get us to believe. And I believe that hair care is another lid that's getting blown. And what better way to make AA's feel inferior than with our looks. So make the standard of beauty to hard to attain that we do more damage than anything. Because our hair wasn't made to do certain things. So don't condemn your hair comdemn the idea that there is only one type of beauty. Because as we all know now beauty is also Black and Nappy!



Not just black women, but all women and all people buying most products meant for skin and hair.  They are designed to work synergistically  meaning, strip, strip, strip...then, replace, replace, replace!  They damage the hair then sell you the antidote to the damage.


----------



## lovegymnasts (Oct 2, 2011)

I have read about half of this thread.
I have a question for those who believe our hair is a curse because it is unique to our race. Are Asian's also cursed due to the uniqueness of their eyes/eyelids?


----------



## Bublin (Oct 2, 2011)

Can someone post a picture of a white person with 4b hair please? (it was mentioned upthread that our 4b hair was not unique to black people erplexed)

All i could find was Mr Simmons....but i bet he has 3something hair that has been backcombed and hairsprayed.


----------



## TopShelf (Oct 2, 2011)

Crackers Phinn said:


> I don't buy that our hair wants to loc.
> 
> Based on 6 years of reading stories on this board and others, most naturals do not encounter issues with tangling or knots until they have surpassed the twa-medium fro stage. If hair was meant to loc, it would begin doing so in the early growth stages.
> 
> Not to mention that locs are artifically knotted and the locking to maturity process takes place over the course of months-years.


 

their hair doesn't loc because they manipulate it. if those same people didnt manipulte their hair for jsut a few days, what do you think would happen?


----------



## tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT (Oct 2, 2011)

Bublin said:


> Can someone post a picture of a white person with 4b hair please? (it was mentioned upthread that our 4b hair was not unique to black people erplexed)
> 
> All i could find was Mr Simmons....but i bet he has 3something hair that has been backcombed and hairsprayed.



http://www.talkwrestlingonline.com/...uests-Thread&p=1125289&viewfull=1#post1125289  ???  lol


----------



## lovegymnasts (Oct 2, 2011)

tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT said:


> http://www.talkwrestlingonline.com/...uests-Thread&p=1125289&viewfull=1#post1125289  ?


Naw, those are not 4b hair.


----------



## Crackers Phinn (Oct 2, 2011)

TopShelf said:


> their hair doesn't loc because they manipulate it. if those same people didnt manipulte their hair for jsut a few days, what do you think would happen?



They'd have smooshed fro's.



Even free form locs don't happen in just a few days.


----------



## Raspberry (Oct 2, 2011)

There's a continual philosophy in this thread that if black women just went with the flow of their hair there is no difficulty or extra time needed. Does that mean it's wrong or emotionally unhealthy to desire any style outside of whatever your hair does when you wash and go?

The practice of wearing an afro is actually something of a modern western thing. Interestingly, when you see photos of indigenous African peoples they never have their hair in an unmanipulated state.  In fact you often see a lot of elaborate time consuming styles, now I doubt they are doing those everyday but every culture has some ideal of hair presentation they mold their hair to fit.


----------



## Bublin (Oct 2, 2011)

tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT said:


> http://www.talkwrestlingonline.com/...uests-Thread&p=1125289&viewfull=1#post1125289 ?


 
Mmmm - combed/brushed/teased-out type 3 hair into an afro - you can still see the 'soft texture' and big curls.


----------



## Raspberry (Oct 2, 2011)

Crackers Phinn said:


> *They'd have smooshed fro's.*
> 
> 
> 
> Even free form locs don't happen in just a few days.



True, but if you were to wash n' go your natural hair without combing it, it would form clumps/pre-locs within a matter of months, now it may be like 5 giant locs but it would loc nonetheless


----------



## DDTexlaxed (Oct 2, 2011)

Selah339 said:


> Huh?
> 
> Over 65% or was it 84% of women have curly hair. Which can do all of the same styles we do with our hair.
> 
> I have a friend who is Mexican and White can relax her hair with *gasp* a black relaxer. It just knocks some of the kink out and makes her hair *gasp* a 3B otherwise she is a 4a. Her mother is white and her father is mexican.



You missed the point I was trying to make.  I was trying to help the original poster to see the beauty of textured hair and its versatility. A lot of my white friends with strait hair have told me they wished they could copy the styles they see black women doing. There are those who envy our textured hair. You don't need to be mixed to use a relaxer. I know plenty of white people who relax their hair.


----------



## Embyra (Oct 2, 2011)

lovegymnasts said:


> Naw, those are not 4b hair.



They never are its always the same pics


----------



## Junebug D (Oct 2, 2011)

Y'all dug this one out of the grave... 



Crackers Phinn said:


> I don't buy that our hair wants to loc.
> 
> Based on 6 years of reading stories on this board and others, most naturals do not encounter issues with tangling or knots until they have surpassed the twa-medium fro stage.  If hair was meant to loc, it would begin doing so in the early growth stages.
> 
> Not to mention that locs are artifically knotted and the locking to maturity process takes place over the course of months-years.



Yet when they get past that TWA stage, most type 4s and even type 3s begin to experience knots and tangles. The ones who say they do not experience knots are people who keep it in a manipulated, stretched style.  So is our hair meant to be in a permanent TWA?   If so it wouldn't grow any longer than that, like body hair.



Raspberry said:


> There's a continual philosophy in this thread that if black women just went with the flow of their hair there is no difficulty or extra time needed. Does that mean it's wrong or emotionally unhealthy to desire any style outside of whatever your hair does when you wash and go?
> 
> The practice of wearing an afro is actually something of a modern western thing. Interestingly, when you see photos of indigenous African peoples they never have their hair in an unmanipulated state.  In fact you often see a lot of elaborate time consuming styles, now I doubt they are doing those everyday but every culture has some ideal of hair presentation they mold their hair to fit.



I don't think anyone's saying that at all (at least I hope not ). It's just recognizing that the styles and the neat looks we prefer may be going against the natural flow of our hair. I recognize that.  Oh well.  Such is life.  I probably will never let my hair freeform loc; if I do loc they will be manicured and styled. Nothing wrong with styling.  My hair is relaxed now.  I know my hair isn't in its optimal condition this way, but I like a certain look and a certain level of maintenance and it works for me.  Compromise is a fact of life.


----------



## Junebug D (Oct 2, 2011)

^^^ And also just recognizing that our hair isn't defective or "meant to be" difficult, and we are not cursed.  Our hair just wants to loc, that's all its trying to do-- that's why it's behaving the way that it is, and that is not inherently bad or difficult.


----------



## Raspberry (Oct 2, 2011)

Junebug D said:


> I don't think anyone's saying that at all (at least I hope not ). It's just recognizing that the styles and the neat looks we prefer may be going against the natural flow of our hair. I recognize that.  Oh well.  Such is life.  I probably will never let my hair freeform loc; if I do loc they will be manicured and styled. Nothing wrong with styling.  My hair is relaxed now.  I know my hair isn't in its optimal condition this way, but I like a certain look and a certain level of maintenance and it works for me.  Compromise is a fact of life.



Yea I agree with all of this. I can acknowledge that I'm absolutely affected by cultural norms for beauty and that since a shrunken fro isn't the hottest thing on my face in the context of these norms, my current relaxer is the best balance for me in terms of hair that looks nice with my face and ease of daily styling. My manicured locs were nice.. just got tired of them as they got longer and heavier. Loose natural was a nice experience, just time consuming as all get out unless I wore twists 24/7.

I'm just musing about what hairstyles black women (with 4ish hair I guess) should aspire to that are "easy" and aren't a permanent shrunken fro lol. Seems like there could never be a real consensus because besides the fact that there's such a variety of textures and regimens, you can't discount aesthetics in these discussions. Some styles simply look better than others on certain people and many women will go the extra mile to enhance their sexy, even if they resent whatever process that that takes.


----------



## Jewell (Oct 2, 2011)

I was led to believe as a child and up until age 23 that my hair was not manageable without a relaxer or lots of heat. When I went natural, I really enjoyed the waves, kinks, curls and so now I actually hate the straight look on me. I dont think our hair is inherently "difficult." I think it does take more time and care than other cultures. 

My hair does take more time to style than the average woman because of the texture and thickness. But as for it being so difficult that I want to relax it or chop it all off? Nope. It's all relative, as every head of hair is different (as are people's hair care techniques and hair care knowledge). 

I would like less shrinkage, and slightly more of a looser curl...but otherwise, I'm satisfied with my natural hair. I think if I regularly straightened, I would get the looser curl...but I'm not much into straight hair on myself anymore. I would rather find natural ways to loosen the curl a bit (like the rumored coconut milk and lime juice) than use chemicals.


----------



## Tiye (Oct 3, 2011)

Oldie but "goodie" thread?? I suggest that anyone who relates to OP should go to youtube and spend some time watching hair styling videos by people of other races. If you do, you'll find out that maintaining any kind of hair has its challenges, and you can even get some tips by stepping out of the box. If you don't want to do anything at all with your hair then locks are a great option - even the manicured looks are very easy to maintain. Hair boards can make things could make things sound overcomplicated because there's so many points of view swirling around together. Think about it - if you hang out on a food board will you try each and every recipe or technique mentioned on the board - probably not - it would get exhausting. Take tips here and there try them out if they sound reasonable and keep the ones that work for you. That's all there is to it.


----------



## I Am So Blessed (Oct 3, 2011)

FlowerHair said:


> I agree with the others - our hair is soooo simple and easy to care for. Provided that one doesn't try to make it into something it really isn't.
> Like for instance wanting stick straight hair 365 days a year when the hair is really a 3b-4b
> 
> Imagine how difficult it would be for a white woman to achieve a perfect 4b afro every morning  She would have difficult hair for sure! And destroyed by chemicals and heat appliances!!!


 

This Is So True 

Sometimes i get frustrated at my hair, but snap back into reality when I realize this ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^


----------



## karyn32 (Oct 10, 2011)

No where near through with this thread, but wanted to post that I am angry at this. Not angry at the op, but angry at how blackness has been so disrespected and devalued that it has our own people questioning its greatness and fabolousness. Please rent Malcolm X, bump it, buy Malcolm X and truly let it marinate. There is a great scene where he says "who told you you were ugly, who told you there was something wrong with your kinky hair and broad nose?" Do not let old prejudices seeped in what I believe to be jealousy screw with your self image. At 32 I am so comfortable in my skin that it makes other people uncomfortable. I'm brown skinned, I'm tall, my legs are big, my butt is big, my breasts are big and I dare a mf to try to tell me I'm anything other than fabolous. I see white folks all day and do not envy a thing that they have. Not their skin color, not their hair, not their bodies, nada. I am black, proud, and I always wear my head high because I am. Let me tell you and anybody else looking for validation outside of yourself, especially in America. Don't do it. You must let go of the ignorance and the jealousy that other races have towards us. And please stop putting white folks hair on a pedestal. Girl, I see them in the street all day and most of the time I am not impressed. The movie stars you see with flowing hair, um that's a weave and parts blended in for thickness. Those curves are courtesy of butt pads and that bronze skin is courtesy of spray tans. That blond hair is courtesy of a bottle. And that smooth skin is courtesy of a lifetime supply of Reitin A. And that shape is generally courtesy of Adderol and cigarettes. Don't be fooled by the Loreal and Clairol commercials. Please. You want length, get a weave like everyone else and when you're tired of it-take it off like everyone else in Hollywood, Beyonce, Jennifer Lopez, Angelina Jolie etc and go on about your business. Life is too short.


----------



## Miss*Tress (Oct 10, 2011)

Bublin said:


> Can someone post a picture of a white person with 4b hair please? (it was mentioned upthread that our 4b hair was not unique to black people erplexed)
> 
> All i could find was Mr Simmons....but i bet he has 3something hair that has been backcombed and hairsprayed.


I was going to say Phoebe Snow, but she was a type 3-ish.

Here's a good candidate:


----------



## dancinstallion (Oct 10, 2011)

I do believe our hair is beautiful and we should stop trying to get it to do something it wasn't meant to do. but look at how hard it is for some ladies hair to grow long. 
I have to admit my hair is difficult with the tangles, shedding, knots etc but I love it for the thickness and length. 

Just look at how many ladies in that thread said how hard it is for them to get to Apl.
*APL!* I know 5 year olds of different races that make it to apl so for it to be so hard for all those ladies on here to get to that length. Then how can one say our hair isn't difficult. Others races get to that length just by breathing.


----------



## Imsosceneic (Oct 13, 2011)

while i don't believe in god, i respect you all and would like to offer a non-religious pov.

i'm still in the process of finding what works for me and my hair and i ask myself this question many times.

why do i have to wear a satin cap, why do i have to oil rinse, why why why? lol

i think i've chalked it up to two variables. 

one being the prevalent beauty standard. fair, delicate, infantile, long locks, youthful body.

as much as i believe the culture of african diaspora is a force to be reckon with, we don't exist in a vacuum and we are not the majority so it is very hard to live life unscathed by the stupid societal ideals in place.

we can have long hair, i don't doubt that at all. but there are many factors "against" us that will stop us from reaching the western standard. shrinkage, styling etc.

we will never be up to par if we judge ourselves by standards that were not made with us in mind.

two being the 'culture of convenience', 'i want it now, with the least bit of effort' attitude that is also prevalent in the west. sometimes i ask myself, why do i have to do so much when others seem to be doing so little for the same results. i've realized that this attitude is lazy and unhealthy.

it would be like complaining that a next person can go several days without brushing their teeth and not get gingivitis while you would not be awarded the same luck.

we must move from the way of thinking that more effort = more hard work and instead think of it as more effort = more care.

yes it does seem more difficult but only because we look at it this way. if we strive for goals that are abnormal to us, won't it always end in disappointment?

i have my insecurities and qualms with my hair also so do not think of this as condescending.


----------



## Lucky's Mom (Oct 13, 2011)

I do not think my hair is difficult.


That is all.


----------



## greenandchic (Oct 13, 2011)

dancinstallion said:


> I do believe our hair is beautiful and we should stop trying to get it to do something it wasn't meant to do. but look at how hard it is for some ladies hair to grow long.
> I have to admit my hair is difficult with the tangles, shedding, knots etc but I love it for the thickness and length.
> 
> Just look at how many ladies in that thread said how hard it is for them to get to Apl.
> *APL!* I know 5 year olds of different races that make it to apl so for it to be so hard for all those ladies on here to get to that length. Then how can one say our hair isn't difficult. Others races get to that length just by breathing.







Imsosceneic said:


> while i don't believe in god, i respect you all and would like to offer a non-religious pov.
> 
> i'm still in the process of finding what works for me and my hair and i ask myself this question many times.
> 
> ...



I don't straighten my hair or use direct heat, so I can't use the reasoning that I'm trying to make my hair do what it isn't meant to do, but I can totally relate to the people here who are frustrated with how "difficult" our hair is. 

 I can't retain one inch past my shoulder unless its in a PS. Not to mention the DCing, cowashing, going comb free, satin, protein, supplements, etc.  My hair also grow as slow as molasses too, when I have friends who have to cut their hair _monthly _to hold a style.  Even my BF's hair grows an inch a month. I know because I cut his hair.  

I do agree that we should see it as our hair needing "more care" or a labor of love.  We live in a world where most of us have limited time for self-care, be it fitness, diet, spiritual practices, or simply caring for our hair instead of slapping a wig on it.


----------



## ActionActress (Oct 14, 2011)

Difficult hair is still a perception among a straight haired culture.  Would it be considered difficult is the culture we lived in upheld Afro hair?  Would we sound so, "siiiiigghhh....whoa is my difficult hair" to the world?  

No one's hair is difficult, one just has to know what THEIR hair wants and needs.


I think letting the world know a very bad perception can further badly inform--the uninformed.  So, we have to start by switching our thinking first.

Yes, some are frustrated, since this is a long hair growth site mainly. But take a deep breath and don't let your frustrations turn into something that the uninformed can latch onto as bad information about our hair.

Lastly, take......your........time!!!  I think too many of us want microwave growing hair. lol!

AA


----------



## candy626 (Oct 14, 2011)

Isis said:


> Jesus was Jewish so it's very possible he had a kinky hair type.


 
Not impossible. Modern day Jews look different than ancient Jews. Most modern day Jews have strong European influences within their bloodlines (even Jews from Israel, as many of them descend from families who were expelled from Europe or urged to move from Europe to Israel in the early 20th century). 


Jesus's bloodline has been examined many times and realistically he probably looked like a modern day Northern African/Middle-Eastern/"Arab" person. Some of these people have coarse thick hair (not like African American hair but definitely coarser and thicker than Caucasian)


As for is our hair meant to be this difficult? No, I think that we make our hair difficult by trying to make it fit into cultural/societal standards of what hair should look like. I think all races of women are guilty of doing this (look at the popularity of flat irons, hair dyes, extensions, keratin treatments. Very few people wear their hair completly and totally naturally). All women chase that ideal image of what soceity/culture tells us "looks good" in combination of what personally appeals to us.


----------



## Lynnerie (Oct 14, 2011)

greenandchic said:


> I don't straighten my hair or use direct heat, so I can't use the reasoning that I'm trying to make my hair do what it isn't meant to do, but I can totally relate to the people here who are frustrated with how "difficult" our hair is.
> 
> I can't retain one inch past my shoulder unless its in a PS. Not to mention the DCing, cowashing, going comb free, satin, protein, supplements, etc.  My hair also grow as slow as molasses too, when I have friends who have to cut their hair _monthly _to hold a style.  Even my BF's hair grows an inch a month. I know because I cut his hair.
> 
> *I do agree that we should see it as our hair needing "more care" or a labor of love.  *We live in a world where most of us have limited time for self-care, be it fitness, diet, spiritual practices, or simply caring for our hair instead of slapping a wig on it.



Thats how I look at it. Just like white folks have to take extra care for their skin when they are in the sun or they'll burn and get sun damage. There are a lot of things we dont have to worry about like varicose veins, and our skin doesn't age as quickly as theirs either. Ok so my hair takes more care whether its natural or relaxed. It is what it is- our hair is still the most versatile hair type on this earth.


----------



## greenandchic (Oct 14, 2011)

Lynnerie said:


> Thats how I look at it. Just like white folks have to take extra care for their skin when they are in the sun or they'll burn and get sun damage*. There are a lot of things we dont have to worry about like varicose veins, *and our skin doesn't age as quickly as theirs either. Ok so my hair takes more care whether its natural or relaxed. It is what it is- our hair is still the most versatile hair type on this earth.



As an aside, I have to disagree with the varicose vein comment.  My mother started getting them in her legs in her 20s from working as a nurse.  My grandmother had them too.  Yes, we do get them - its not pigmentation issue. 

I'm almost 33 and have been using SPF since I was in my teens.  Granted it was mainly because I had acne scars that I didn't want to darken in the sun, but its been a habit of mine for years now.  Yes, as long as we take care of ourselves, our skin doesn't age.


----------



## mech (Oct 14, 2011)

lol that's like asking were black people meant to be inferior. black hair is only "difficult" because white supremacy says so.


----------



## Carmelella (Oct 14, 2011)

It seems so difficult because we tend to try to make it look like something its not.  You add oils/spritz etc because want ti shiny as if we had flat cuticles of a straight haired perceson.  We define what beauty is, we define what styles are acceptable therefore defining manageability.  Unfortunately our definition is far from what we really are.  Whose fault is that?  Change ur perception, and u change your reality.  If a white person had the perception that an afro was beautiful they would be spending hours on their hair, and when big hair in the 70's was popular, they did.  And plus, I see lots off people with nice hair who wash and air dry once a week and moisturize with one drug store grease with no problems. 

In the biggger picture, we shouldn't be complaining about hair.  How many white people say they were cheated of dark skin and now they have higher rates of the deadly skin cancer.  Or do Jews feel slighted cuz they have much higher rates of Tay Sachs disease (100 percent fatal).  We all have our challenges.


----------



## deltagyrl (Oct 15, 2011)

Once I took the time to understand my natural hair, it's been all love.

Black hair rocks!


----------



## My Friend (Dec 31, 2011)

I thought the natural state of our hair is loc'g? People with loc's don't do much to their hair and they have long lengths. I know the shed hair is intwined in the loc but they still have retained most of their growth.

If we lived in a loc accepting society, this wouldn't be a issue. That one picture of an African in the 1700's or 1800's showd she had locs down to her butt.


----------



## aquajoyice (Dec 31, 2011)

It's only as hard as you make it.


----------



## abioni (Dec 31, 2011)

Very interesting thread. 
The truth is traditional African cultures did not care about length of hair, it was what was done with the hair that matters. That's why they used to have so many elaborate hair styles. This styles would last for months, so to the Africans hair was definitely not difficult at all.


----------



## SoopremeBeing (Dec 31, 2011)

I will admit, i am amazed at how some whites and Asians can do a big chop and it all magically reappears withim a year. I think it really depends on how well you take care of your hair. I have friends who complain about how hard is it to manage their hair: these are the same girls that wash their hair everyday and use way too many products. "They dont want to get their hair too greasy/oily" they say...but little do they know that moisurizing is probably THE most important part of hair care. Same with your skin and nails.

There are some women whose hair cannot hold a curl, and some who cannot keep a flatiron job. My mom has fine hair, but I got my dad's thick, coily hair. It can be a challenge, but we can do so many things with our hair. Braid it, weave it, dye it, twist it, loc it, curl it, straighten it, etc. We just have to pay attention to the products we use, and how your hair responds to it.


----------

