# Prominent Pastor Sporting A Diamond Stud Earring



## Supergirl (Jun 25, 2008)

A very well-known figure in America's Christian community is now sporting a diamond stud earring. Yes, it's a male and I'm 99% sure that you've heard of him.

Your opinions please?


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## kayte (Jun 25, 2008)

As long as it's real,then hope it's either properly insured or he has a back-up earring. l aways lose those minute things..I almost gave up wearing earrings.

guess my point is...a diamond stud? as opposed to say ..pearl or plastic? nice choice imho
 wearing it on the ear (_sporting as in flaunting _is an opinion only)
anyways wearing it ..where it usually belongs..on the lobe?  and he's a guy? 

and loves the Lord and spreads the word
hmmmm

I don't much care..actually don't care at all 

except the loving God part  and sharing the good news


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## Supergirl (Jun 26, 2008)

Well the point wasn't really the type of earring so much as it was that he _has_ an earring--lol! 

I have a strong distaste for men with earrings, let alone men of God, let alone our under- shepherds, let alone this one in particular.  He was one of the last people I'd expect to see "conforming to the world." It just doesn't sit well with me. After salvation, sanctification should eventually follow. Maybe I shouldn't assume that anyone is sanctified (set apart), but as long as he's been in ministry, I did assume it, and I am utterly surprised. 

And this isn't really relevant, but this guy is close to 60 if he isn't already there, which also makes me go  to the whole earring thing.


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## auntie gettis (Jun 26, 2008)

Supergirl said:


> Well the point wasn't really the type of earring so much as it was that he _has_ an earring--lol!
> 
> I have a strong distaste for men with earrings, let alone men of God, let alone our under- shepherds, let alone this one in particular.  He was one of the last people I'd expect to see "conforming to the world." It just doesn't sit well with me. After salvation, sanctification should eventually follow. Maybe I shouldn't assume that anyone is sanctified (set apart), but as long as he's been in ministry, I did assume it, and I am utterly surprised.
> 
> And this isn't really relevant, but this guy is close to 60 if he isn't already there, which also makes me go  to the whole earring thing.


 

I agree with you on this one, Supergirl.  It bothers me that there are some male ministers, and even Christian recording artists, who sport earrings like it is no big deal them.  It would make you think that they are trying to reach the world by looking like the world...


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## AbundantlyBlessed (Jun 26, 2008)

OK...Who is it?  Please share...sometimes context could make a big difference.


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## Nefertiti0906 (Jun 26, 2008)

I really don't think it's a big deal. Seriously compared to other things he could have done, an earring is no biggie to me.

For example in my native culture, men wear necklaces (gold chains) and writlets (?).  It's just fashion.

What if he sported cornrows or locks? Or he sports a high top fade (a la kid and play)?

No offense OP, as long as it does not detract from the word of God, I don't mind.


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## Supergirl (Jun 26, 2008)

Nefertiti0906 said:


> I really don't think it's a big deal. Seriously compared to other things he could have done, an earring is no biggie to me.
> 
> For example in my native culture, men wear necklaces (gold chains) and writlets (?).  It's just fashion.
> 
> ...



Oh, I'm not offended. I mean, I did open this up for discussion and opinions. But I am definitely of the "in the world, not _of_ the world" mindset.


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## Supergirl (Jun 26, 2008)

AbundantlyBlessed said:


> OK...Who is it?  Please share...sometimes context could make a big difference.



I don't want it to seem like I'm publicly bad mouthing an individual, so I tried to make this thread "general." But I sent you a PM.


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## Nefertiti0906 (Jun 26, 2008)

Supergirl said:


> Oh, I'm not offended. I mean, I did open this up for discussion and opinions.* But I am definitely of the "in the world, not of the world" mindset*.


 
I think that's were it can get subjective.  

Here's some examples:

My parents (who are staunch Christians) believe that Chrisitians should not wear locks because it's "of the world"
I also know some people that beliver that Christians shouldn't wear jewerly because it's off the world
Back home in Nigeria, there were some Christians who believed that women had to cover their hair at all times
Also there are some Christians who believe that women should not wear pants or shorts (my father use to be one of those but he quickly got over it when we became teenagers, lol)
So where do we draw the line?  That's why I always say that God looks at our heart and knows our true intent...


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## Supergirl (Jun 26, 2008)

Nefertiti0906 said:


> I think that's were it can get subjective.
> 
> Here's some examples:
> 
> ...



That is true and I am not implying that a man with an earring has an ugly heart. I am speaking more to the idea that what we as Christians do outwardly is sending a message and some kind of witness to the people of the world, whether we want it to or not. It also sends a message to others in Christ, especially babes in the Lord. The outward appearance is part of our witness for whom we say we represent.


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## Nefertiti0906 (Jun 26, 2008)

Supergirl said:


> That is true and I am not implying that a man with an earring has an ugly heart. I am speaking more to the idea that what *we as Christians do outwardly is sending a message and some kind of witness to the people of the world, whether we want it to or not*. It also sends a message to others in Christ, especially babes in the Lord. The outward appearance is part of our witness for whom we say we represent.


 
We do, but my point is that there is no litmus test that shows if we're acting Christ-like or not, when it comes to appearance.  Also I think God didn't put specific standards in the bible for this reason, because our cultural fashion changes over time and we humans are quick to be distracted on what we should focus on.  But obviously dressing like a hoochie is not acceptable  

I guess I'm weary of topics like these because in the Church I grew up in, they were so strict on personal appearances and were quick to judge people on what they thought a Christian should look like.


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## Supergirl (Jun 26, 2008)

Nefertiti0906 said:


> We do, but my point is that there is no litmus test that shows if we're acting Christ-like or not, when it comes to appearance.  Also I think God didn't put specific standards in the bible for this reason, because our cultural fashion changes over time and we humans are quick to be distracted on what we should focus on.  But obviously dressing like a hoochie is not acceptable
> 
> *I guess I'm weary of topics like these because in the Church I grew up in, they were so strict on personal appearances and were quick to judge people on what they thought a Christian should look like.*



I understand. I have dear friends that have similar stories/backgrounds. I also agree that there aren't specifics in the Bible, but lets look at your hoochie example. Hoochie is associated with whoring, promiscuity more or less, right? So if someone were to see a Christian female dressed like a hoochie then more than likely she will be associated with hoochieness. It's like someone who may *not* be a police officer wearing a police uniform. People will assume he's a police officer and does the things an officer does simply because he is wearing a police uniform. He will be expected to help people, arrest people, etc.  A woman wearing a "hoochie uniform" will be deemed as such, whether she really is or not. People will expect hoochieness from her. 

There are some "uniforms" that the world puts on that are associated with certain ideals, behaviors, lifestyles, etc. If a Christian puts on those uniforms, they are then associated with those same ideals, behaviors, and lifestyles. If I'm not a believer and I see a Christian in one of those uniforms, that is more or less telling me that those Christians aren't all that people think they are. They're not set apart at all. They're no different than the rest of us. What's the big deal? I can keep living my lifestyle like I am. I don't have to become a Christian, because them and their lifestyles are no different from mine.


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## kayte (Jun 26, 2008)

> I guess I'm weary of topics like these because in the Church I grew up in, they were so strict on personal appearances and were quick to judge people on what they thought a Christian should look like.


 
Co-signing on that and.....it's not a sin..
and what defines a _sanctified_ ear ?

imho 
an ear that listens to the word of God and in this case 
as  the Subject is spreading  and preaching the word of God..

non-issue..imho


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## Supergirl (Jun 26, 2008)

kayte said:


> Co-signing on that and.....it's not a sin..
> and what defines a _sanctified_ ear ?
> 
> imho
> ...



I'm not talking about the ear. I'm talking about how we as believers look to those that aren't. Sanctification means being set apart from the world.


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## gn1g (Jun 26, 2008)

Supergirl said:


> I don't want it to seem like I'm publicly bad mouthing an individual, so I tried to make this thread "general." *But I sent you a PM*.


 

me to please


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## gn1g (Jun 26, 2008)

Supergirl said:


> I'm not talking about the ear. I'm talking about how we as believers look to those that aren't. Sanctification means being set apart from the world.


 

I agree and I also dislike tattoes as well.


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## tallygirl (Jun 26, 2008)

I totally agree with your comments.  



kayte said:


> As long as it's real,then hope it's either properly insured or he has a back-up earring. l aways lose those minute things..I almost gave up wearing earrings.
> 
> guess my point is...a diamond stud? as opposed to say ..pearl or plastic? nice choice imho
> wearing it on the ear (_sporting as in flaunting _is an opinion only)
> ...


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## PassionFruit (Jun 26, 2008)

Id have a problem with it if it were my pastor....

my pastor teaches & I also believe that tattoos and earrings are mutilations not pleasing to God ...   earrings on a man of God would just take the cake for me
My pastor makes it known that he PERSONALLY isnt fond of braids & dreds & such but that his personal feelings on those hairstyles have nothing to do with bible doctrine
( Can I get a PM on who it is)


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## kayte (Jun 26, 2008)

> Sanctification means being set apart from the world.


 
It also means not judging.


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## PassionFruit (Jun 26, 2008)

kayte said:


> It also means not judging.




expressing dislike, non-agreement and displeasure doesnt equate judging


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## kayte (Jun 26, 2008)

ummmm.....actually...
au contraire



> expressing dislike, non-agreement and displeasure doesnt equate = judging


 
BUT! 
I agree to disagree...

(exits gracefully from thread )


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## Supergirl (Jun 26, 2008)

kayte said:


> It also means not judging.



I agree. Who's judging?

Glad you're agreeing about sanctification. (noting the "also" above)


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## xxCami (Jun 26, 2008)

AbundantlyBlessed said:


> OK...Who is it? Please share...sometimes context could make a big difference.


 

hahaha is it my homie cre-flo.. lol
i bet it is.


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## Supergirl (Jun 26, 2008)

PassionFruit said:


> expressing dislike, non-agreement and displeasure doesnt equate judging



Oh, she meant me!  No, if I don't agree or like something it doesn't mean I'm judging. I'm just stating truth.


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## PaperClip (Jun 26, 2008)

PassionFruit said:


> Id have a problem with it if it were my pastor....
> 
> my pastor teaches & I also believe that tattoos and earrings are mutilations not pleasing to God ... earrings on a man of God would just take the cake for me
> My pastor makes it known that he PERSONALLY isnt fond of braids & dreds & such but that his personal feelings on those hairstyles have nothing to do with bible doctrine
> ( Can I get a PM on who it is)


 
I think I know who it is.... and if it is who I think it is, an earring is the LEAST of what we should be concerned about....

ETA: I came upon new information that changes my initial speculation....

I quoted PF because it aligns with what my pastor instructs the men as well. There are a number of brothers at my church who have the hole but no earring.... meaning that once they gave themselves over to the Lord, they put away those worldly things, including wearing an earring.

As far as the point of being judgemental, I REALLY hope that before the Lord cracks the sky, that we all come to an understanding about what being judgmental really means and when and how being judgemental is and is not erroneous. It is my understanding that, refering to the scripture that says "iron sharpens iron", we "sharpen" each other by being accountable to each other and when we see our fellow brother or sister going astray, that we SPEAK THE TRUTH IN LOVE.... I say this sincerely, not sarcastically...because MY LORD, I hope I have enough sense to hear the truth, especially when it is spoken in love....

On the natural tip, I don't like the brothers (be it men of the cloth, my brother, my father, my uncle, my pastor, my boyfriend, my husband, my sons, etc.) in earrings.... I mean, one earring is bad enough...but now many have taken it too far and now have two or more.... It's not cute.

And I really wanted a tattoo, but when I read the Word of God about tattoos, I had to back off that desire. Point blank.


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## Supergirl (Jun 26, 2008)

FoxyScholar said:


> I think I know who it is.... and if it is who I think it is, an earring is the LEAST of what we should be concerned about....
> 
> I quoted PF because it aligns with what my pastor instructs the men as well. *There are a number of brothers at my church who have the hole but no earring.... meaning that once they gave themselves over to the Lord, they put away those worldly things, including wearing an earring.*
> 
> ...



same at my church; we actually have a kind of trophy case things that people have given up as they have drawn near to Christ--things like condoms, bottles of alcohol, cigarettes, homosexual related items, and yes even earrings.

ETA: Oh shoot, I didn't realize that was you.


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## auntie gettis (Jun 26, 2008)

PassionFruit said:


> expressing dislike, non-agreement and displeasure doesnt equate judging


 

As believers, we can judge by the Word of God and with a spirit of love...


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## gn1g (Jun 27, 2008)

Wondering if He is using the same tactic that the secular music industry uses - just before they drop a new CD they attempt to become controversial.  Perhaps he is doing this (along with the other story) just before his book comes out.  just a thought.


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## Supergirl (Jun 27, 2008)

gn1g said:


> Wondering if He is using the same tactic that the secular music industry uses - just before they drop a new CD they attempt to become controversial.  Perhaps he is doing this (along with the other story) just before his book comes out.  just a thought.



*snicker* Ya think that's what he could be up to?


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## Choclatcotton (Jun 28, 2008)

I totally agree with you on that earring part Supergirl, thats why I dont even look to the false tv prophets for "christlikeness".  They are shamelessly falsely deceiving the people with there selfish conduct.


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## firecracker (Jun 28, 2008)

I don't know if I like studs on Pastors.  It seems too street to me but if he's changing lives and saving souls its ok with me.


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## star (Jun 28, 2008)

Supergirl said:


> That is true and I am not implying that a man with an earring has an ugly heart. I am speaking more to the idea that what we as Christians do outwardly is sending a message and some kind of witness to the people of the world, whether we want it to or not. It also sends a message to others in Christ, especially babes in the Lord. The outward appearance is part of our witness for whom we say we represent.



I agree. My problem with this for even all men is that wearing one does not have a real purpose. I have ask this question to some men but I feel a Pastor has to be careful because it look like he is looking for attention and most leaders do have people following what they do especaily the babes in Christ and the young people. WHO IS THE MAN? I think I can guess.


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## momi (Jun 28, 2008)

edited - found another posts that insists these are photoshopped - however G Craige Lewis stated this last year some time...


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## Supergirl (Jun 29, 2008)

momi said:


> edited - found another posts that insists these are photoshopped - however G Craige Lewis stated this last year some time...



I was watching Entertainment Tonight *on my television, not on the internet*, and the earring was more than obvious. I've just been informed of the photoshopped pictures, but genuine footage on Entertainment Tonight, of course, was not photoshopped.   (I wish it was just photoshopping...sigh)


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## momi (Jun 29, 2008)

Supergirl said:


> I was watching Entertainment Tonight *on my television, not on the internet*, and the earring was more than obvious. I've just been informed of the photoshopped pictures, but genuine footage on Entertainment Tonight, of course, was not photoshopped.  (I wish it was just photoshopping...sigh)


 

I think it is ridiculous - what are you trying to prove getting an earring in your old age?  

Lord please help us to fall out of love with the world and fall in love with you.

Amen.


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## Amour (Jun 29, 2008)

I'm not trying to be controversial or anything - so please bear with me.

But if wearing earrings are of the world and such what about relaxing hair styling hair etc, purposing dressing to look nice etc?

 Is this something which is wrong for men only? or women also?

Can anyone share any scriptures that suggests earrings are wrong?


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## Supergirl (Jun 29, 2008)

KissKiss said:


> I'm not trying to be controversial or anything - so please bear with me.
> 
> But if wearing earrings are of the world and such what about relaxing hair styling hair etc, purposing dressing to look nice etc?
> 
> ...



Again, it has a lot to do with our witness to people in the world and other believers. No one in the world is going to see a Christian as "common folk" if someone has a relaxer or cute hair style. What association does a particular action or symbol have? A relaxer does not have a worldly association. No one is going to be taken aback if they see someone wearing a relaxer.

Perfect Example: When Tyler Perry was on Oprah promoting _Why Did I Get Married?_, he talked about some party that he and Janet Jackson were at. Tyler Perry goes on to say how happy he was that there was an open bar at the party and how much he enjoyed "throwing back" drinks that night. Oprah, who had always known him as someone who openly glorified God got wide eyed and said something like "*YOU* got excited about an open bar???" That is not the behavior that is expected of a Christian, hence Oprah's surprise. (and mine too & probably a bunch of other folks) What message did this send to believers and non-believers who had always seen Tyler as someone who was "set apart" from the world? 

Re: your other question--

No, I do not have any _specific_ scriptures suggesting that men wearing earrings are wrong. There are many things that are wrong *for Christians* that we will not find verbatim scriptures for. I believe the scripture quoted earlier in this thread regarding being *in* the world, but not *of* the world is an appropriate scripture for this scenario.


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## cheetarah1980 (Jun 30, 2008)

I don't see the big deal about an earring (unless it was something ginormous and ostentatious...thus not displaying modesty/humility).  Tattoos are clearly forbidden in scripture, so I could understand the uproar if the man had recently tatted himself up a la Lil Wayne or 50 Cent.  But it's an earring.  Why make the yoke more burdensome with rules that don't even exist?  This sort of reminds me of the fence laws that were created in addition to the Torah, which Jesus specifically spoke out against.  For MANY people a man wearing an earring is as neutral as a man wearing jeans.  It doesn't make a statement as to wear his faith stands (unlike excessive drinking, promiscuity, profane language, etc.).  It seems it's more a matter of personal taste.  It's one thing for a person not to like earrings on a man.  It's a whole nother thing to try and back up a personal dislike with it being a directive from God.


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## momi (Jun 30, 2008)

I have a problem with it - no I will admit that I cannot find anything directly saying that men should not wear earrings, but in my generation earrings on men were first linked to the homosexual community.

My question is this?  Why do something so controversial in this day and age?  For a "Bishop" to just break out a the diamond stud is very risky and makes the world look at us as if we were just like them, when we are called to come out from among them and be separate.  How are we to be the light that stands out in darkness if we are looking dark ourselves?  The world is supposed to look at our families and lifestyles and see a difference - we should not be trying to blend in and look just like them.

In a day and age where real men seem to be so rare (especially in the black church) this just seems to be another nail in the coffin.  So what do we say to the single mother looking for an example for her son?  They used to be able to go to the church for this example, now with the Bishop wearing an earring and "prophets and pastors getting divorced left and right where is the un-believer to look?  Where?


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## cheetarah1980 (Jun 30, 2008)

momi said:


> I have a problem with it - no I will admit that I cannot find anything directly saying that men should not wear earrings, but in my generation earrings on men were first linked to the homosexual community.
> 
> My question is this? Why do something so controversial in this day and age? For a "Bishop" to just break out a the diamond stud is very risky and makes the world look at us as if we were just like them, when we are called to come out from among them and be separate. How are we to be the light that stands out in darkness if we are looking dark ourselves? The world is supposed to look at our families and lifestyles and see a difference - we should not be trying to blend in and look just like them.
> 
> In a day and age where real men seem to be so rare (especially in the black church) this just seems to be another nail in the coffin. So what do we say to the single mother looking for an example for her son? They used to be able to go to the church for this example, now with the Bishop wearing an earring and "prophets and pastors getting divorced left and right where is the un-believer to look? Where?


 
But what determines the standard of "darkness?" Unless someone has on a priest's collar, nun's habit, or Amish attire, there's no way to tell if they follow Christ.  If my pastor walked down the street in jeans and a non-descript T-shirt I wouldn't be able to see a difference between him and an unbeliever.  Is he NOT set apart because he looks like every other man in the mall/on the street/on the bus/etc.?  I wouldn't say so.  On any given day you couldn't pick a Christian out of a crowd of people because there isn't a specific, identifying uniform that we are called to wear.  Does that make us any less sanctified?
20-25 years ago an earring on a man was seen as bold/counterculture/etc. I distinctly remember being told that if a man wore the earring in his right ear it meant he was gay.  If he wore it in the left ear it means he's straight.  When guys started wearing them in both ears, I just got all confused.  
Remember, it wasn't too long ago that women wearing skirts above the ankles was quite scandalous.  Heck, nowadays kneelength skirts are considered demure.  If you saw a Christian woman in a knee-length dress/skirt would you say that she's blending in with the darkness? Probably not, because over time styles have changed.
I look at men with earrings the same way.  It's just as nondescript as jeans, khakis, loafers, a plain gold chain (all of which Christians wear, just as unbelievers do).  It's just neutral, not pointing in any direction.


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## momi (Jun 30, 2008)

cheetarah1980 said:


> But what determines the standard of "darkness?" Unless someone has on a priest's collar, nun's habit, or Amish attire, there's no way to tell if they follow Christ. If my pastor walked down the street in jeans and a non-descript T-shirt I wouldn't be able to see a difference between him and an unbeliever. Is he NOT set apart because he looks like every other man in the mall/on the street/on the bus/etc.? I wouldn't say so. On any given day you couldn't pick a Christian out of a crowd of people because there isn't a specific, identifying uniform that we are called to wear. Does that make us any less sanctified?
> 20-25 years ago an earring on a man was seen as bold/counterculture/etc. I distinctly remember being told that if a man wore the earring in his right ear it meant he was gay. If he wore it in the left ear it means he's straight. When guys started wearing them in both ears, I just got all confused.
> Remember, it wasn't too long ago that women wearing skirts above the ankles was quite scandalous. Heck, nowadays kneelength skirts are considered demure. If you saw a Christian woman in a knee-length dress/skirt would you say that she's blending in with the darkness? Probably not, because over time styles have changed.
> I look at men with earrings the same way. It's just as nondescript as jeans, khakis, loafers, a plain gold chain (all of which Christians wear, just as unbelievers do). It's just neutral, not pointing in any direction.


 
Good post - however I choose to respectfully disagree. 

Why the earring?  Why now?  This is a unnecessary *distration* from the work at hand - introducing others to Christ.  

I too remember when men wearing and earring was a statement about your orientation - why would one even want to associate themselves with something of this questionable nature?  The bible says that a Bishop must be above reproach -

Also, while I do wear dresses and skirts well above the knee I sometimes feel that when women were more "demure" there were farr leess attacks against women and women were held in a much higher regard.


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## cheetarah1980 (Jun 30, 2008)

momi said:


> Good post - however I choose to respectfully disagree.
> 
> Why the earring? Why now? This is a unnecessary *distration* from the work at hand - introducing others to Christ.
> 
> ...


I get what you're saying.  I think an earring on a man has more to do with youth than anything else.  I expect it from the 35 and under set.  Seeing a man who's nearing 60 with an earring would throw me off too.  I would just see it as him not acting his age.  
Styles change with time and things once associated w/ questionable behavior are no longer tied to those things.  In Paul's time ornate braided hairstyles on women were considered ostentatious, immodest, and something that should be avoided.  Nowadays that's not the case at all.  In fact, how many of us are oooh-ing and aahhh-ing over intricate braids in people's fotkis?  I think since we remember earrings on men being associated w/ homosexuality it still has that tie for us.  Whereas if you asked someone born after 1985, they wouldn't make that correlation at all.  In another 50 years no one is going to see how the two even correlate. I guess that's why I see men with earrings as neutral.  Now old men with earrings just scream "MIDLIFE CRISIS" to me. But that's something else entirely.


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## Supergirl (Jun 30, 2008)

cheetarah1980 said:


> I don't see the big deal about an earring (unless it was something ginormous and ostentatious...thus not displaying modesty/humility).  Tattoos are clearly forbidden in scripture, so I could understand the uproar if the man had recently tatted himself up a la Lil Wayne or 50 Cent.  But it's an earring.  Why make the yoke more burdensome with rules that don't even exist?  This sort of reminds me of the fence laws that were created in addition to the Torah, which Jesus specifically spoke out against.  For MANY people a man wearing an earring is as neutral as a man wearing jeans.  It doesn't make a statement as to wear his faith stands (unlike excessive drinking, promiscuity, profane language, etc.).  It seems it's more a matter of personal taste.  It's one thing for a person not to like earrings on a man.  It's a whole nother thing to try and back up a personal dislike with it being a directive from God.



Hmm? I don't think I said it was a directive from God. Whether a personal dislike or not, there is a standard for Christians and how we should present ourselves. Hey, I can't find a scripture that says sagging your pants below your butt and showing your underwear is wrong either, but I can say with certainty that no Christian should be walking around presenting him or herself in that manner.

I can't find a scripture that says a woman shouldn't wear revealing clothing in public, but we just know that this is not behavior that should typify the Christian. 

As I said in an earlier post, it depends on the association. 

I am not the kind of person that is going to try to "use" God to back up, as you say, my personal dislikes. There are lots of things I don't like, but I'm not sitting back saying they're all inappropriate for Christians.


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## PaperClip (Jun 30, 2008)

Please allow me to introduce a point for food for thought:

We've explored the "biblical legality" of men and earring(s).

We've also explored the point of this prominent (unnamed) pastor wearing said earring.

We've also touched upon the point of whether the earring in said prominent (unnamed) pastor's ear really exists.

I read this phrase online in reference to the 1970s Watergate scandal:

*It's not the crime, it's the COVER-UP"....*

So first, whether or not we think/believe it is a "biblical crime" for said prominent (unnamed) pastor to sport said earring, what also seems to have occurred is a possible cover-up that said prominent unnamed pastor ever wore said earring.... So my point is:

If said prominent pastor has this earring and is wearing it proudly or whatever, it would be helpful to know or understand how/why this pastor justifies BIBLICALLY why this is acceptable. I think this is a reasonable request because this pastor is A PASTOR, overseeing a congregation, and a prominent one at that, so it would help the body of Christ to at least get a sense of this pastor's logic on this....

I better stop writing before the name spills out from my keystrokes! LOL!


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## Amour (Jul 1, 2008)

cheetarah1980 said:


> I don't see the big deal about an earring (unless it was something ginormous and ostentatious...thus not displaying modesty/humility). Tattoos are clearly forbidden in scripture, so I could understand the uproar if the man had recently tatted himself up a la Lil Wayne or 50 Cent. But it's an earring. Why make the yoke more burdensome with rules that don't even exist? This sort of reminds me of the fence laws that were created in addition to the Torah, which Jesus specifically spoke out against. For MANY people a man wearing an earring is as neutral as a man wearing jeans. It doesn't make a statement as to wear his faith stands (unlike excessive drinking, promiscuity, profane language, etc.). It seems it's more a matter of personal taste. It's one thing for a person not to like earrings on a man. It's a whole nother thing to try and back up a personal dislike with it being a directive from God.


 
I agree with you 1 million % on ALL the points who have made thus far

I was trying to get some other food for thought why an earring woud be considered forbidden; but personally I'm not convinced. I think the arguments that purport to differientate others things such as relaxers from earrings are one and the same.

How can having a relaxer or dressing nicely REALLY be differientated from an earring? IMO I think this is a mere personal opinion.

And why does it matter so much more if its a Man wearing an earring and not a Woman? Discrepancies such as this allow me to further conclude that the belief that earrings are forbidden are a result of social/ individual interpretations / judgments of what is Godly and worldly.

^^^^JMHO


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## Supergirl (Jul 1, 2008)

KissKiss said:


> I agree with you 1 million % on ALL the points who have made thus far
> 
> I was trying to get some other food for thought why an earring woud be considered forbidden; but personally I'm not convinced. I think the arguments that purport to differientate others things such as relaxers from earrings are one and the same.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your contribution. 

Do you all remember the old Sprite slogan "Image is everything." 

Well, in the life of a Christian image is everything. I think perhaps some are interpreting what I have shared as saying that wearing an earring is a sin. It is no more a sin than a woman wearing a shirt that shows much of her cleavage. It's not a sin to go to a club, but should a Christian do that?  In the case of all(earring, club, & cleavage), what image does the person project? If a Christian, what image are they giving off to those who see them, especially nonbelievers.? Wearing a relaxer does not give off this same type of image. Again, it's the association that makes the difference. And YES, a Christian _should_ have a certain image. Some Christians think it is okay to drink. Some say nothing is wrong with a social drink. But if that person is known to be a Christian among friends, colleagues, whomever, and then goes out to happy hour with those same people and has a drink, what message does that send to others.

We are to witness to people directly and in the way we live our lives. The way we live our lives is also related to our image. Certain acts/behaviors/ways of carrying ourselves are just not appropriate for a Christian.


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## sprungonhairboards (Jul 1, 2008)

Well I'll put it out there, you're talking about TD Jakes right? I mean he obviously ain't tryin to hide it so I don't see no shame in saying his name. Plus it's the talk of the Christian town right now. I'm not sure if I care or not about his earring. But this would be the LEAST of my  concerns regarding him and not surprising in the least.


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## cheetarah1980 (Jul 1, 2008)

Supergirl said:


> Thanks for your contribution.
> 
> Do you all remember the old Sprite slogan "Image is everything."
> 
> ...


 
I get your point completely.  I just don't understand what image an earring gives off.  All of the other examples you mentioned are clear.  Showing cleavage is a modesty issue since the breasts do tend to turn folks on.  I'm on the fence w/ the drinking example, as I don't know too many people who look at having 1 drink as something that sends a negative message.  Excessive drinking that leads to drunkeness, yes that sends a clear negative message.  Even going to the club can send a negative message because of the type of music, dancing and excessive drinking that occurs there.  However, what exactly is the negative image that an earring on a man sends?  I don't know anyone who looks at a man with an earring and thinks anything other than, "that man is wearing an earring," and that's if they notice it all.
Is the problem the type of earring he's wearing? Is it a big flashy diamond that shouts, "LOOK AT ME, I'M BLINGING!!"  Then once again, I see it as a modesty issue.  But an earring on a man in and of itself is no more descript than a pair of jeans or as mentioned before a relaxed head of hair.


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## chellero (Jul 1, 2008)

Supergirl said:


> Thanks for your contribution.
> 
> Do you all remember the old Sprite slogan "Image is everything."
> 
> ...



I hope that the message that is sent is that accepting Jesus as your savior doesn't mean that you can't have a beer with a coworker.   Earrings, alcohol, ect are not salvation issues and I hope that people would focus on where they will spend the afterlife instead of concerning themselves with who drank and wore what where.


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## Supergirl (Jul 1, 2008)

chellero said:


> I hope that the message that is sent is that accepting Jesus as your savior doesn't mean that you can't have a beer with a coworker.   Earrings, alcohol, ect are not salvation issues and *I hope that people would focus on where they will spend the afterlife instead of concerning themselves with who drank and wore what where.  *



Yes, but during this life we must be concerned with the witness we bare here on earth. We would probably need to start a new thread, but having a beer with a coworker is certainly not representative of Jesus. Someone sitting in a bar/restaurant with their cross necklace on and drinking a beer


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## cheetarah1980 (Jul 1, 2008)

Supergirl said:


> Yes, but during this life we must be concerned with the witness we bare here on earth. We would probably need to start a new thread, but having a beer with a coworker is certainly not representative of Jesus. Someone sitting in a bar/restaurant with their cross necklace on and drinking a beer


But Jesus himself drank wine, so isn't there some sort of disconnect here.  How does drinking one beer NOT represent Jesus or say anything about your walk with him one way or the other.  Drunkeness is definitely not indicative, but drinking *a* beer?


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## Supergirl (Jul 1, 2008)

cheetarah1980 said:


> I get your point completely.  I just don't understand what image an earring gives off.  All of the other examples you mentioned are clear.  Showing cleavage is a modesty issue since the breasts do tend to turn folks on.  I'm on the fence w/ the drinking example, as I don't know too many people who look at having 1 drink as something that sends a negative message.  Excessive drinking that leads to drunkeness, yes that sends a clear negative message.  Even going to the club can send a negative message because of the type of music, dancing and excessive drinking that occurs there.  However, what exactly is the negative image that an earring on a man sends?  I don't know anyone who looks at a man with an earring and thinks anything other than, "that man is wearing an earring," and that's if they notice it all.
> Is the problem the type of earring he's wearing? Is it a big flashy diamond that shouts, "LOOK AT ME, I'M BLINGING!!"  Then once again, I see it as a modesty issue.  But an earring on a man in and of itself is no more descript than a pair of jeans or as mentioned before a relaxed head of hair.



I see what you're saying, and no I can't really say it's the type of earring. I don't know if I can explain any better than I have about the association that comes with certain things, and how we can be perceived by the world just from associations.


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## Supergirl (Jul 1, 2008)

cheetarah1980 said:


> But Jesus himself drank wine, so isn't there some sort of disconnect here.  How does drinking one beer NOT represent Jesus or say anything about your walk with him one way or the other.  Drunkeness is definitely not indicative, but drinking *a* beer?



 I was waiting on someone to say that, and I say hey if you can turn water into wine then you get to drink it! 

Seriously though, it's my understanding that wine during that time was different in that it was more or less fermented grapes/grape juice and not processed with additives and such like wine is today to increase the buzz factor. I also understand that water back then was quite contaminated. Drinking water was the same water that the donkey bathed in.  So wine was THE beverage of choice back then.


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## cheetarah1980 (Jul 1, 2008)

Supergirl said:


> I was waiting on someone to say that, and I say hey if you can turn water into wine then you get to drink it!
> 
> Seriously though, it's my understanding that wine during that time was different in that it was more or less fermented grapes/grape juice and not processed with additives and such like wine is today to increase the buzz factor. I also understand that water back then was quite contaminated. Drinking water was the same water that the donkey bathed in.  So wine was THE beverage of choice back then.


I've heard that too. But if wine wasn't really alcoholic in those times, then there would be no need for the repeated warnings about drinking too much wine.  Drunkeness wouldn't have been an issue if the wine wasn't strong enough to get a person drunk.  
Personally, I don't drink. But from what I hear good wine is simply fermented grapes/grape juice that's been aged a REALLY long time.  The stuff is all natural but still alcoholic.


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## Supergirl (Jul 1, 2008)

cheetarah1980 said:


> I've heard that too. But if wine wasn't really alcoholic in those times, then there would be no need for the repeated warnings about drinking too much wine.  Drunkeness wouldn't have been an issue if the wine wasn't strong enough to get a person drunk.
> Personally, I don't drink. But from what I hear good wine is simply fermented grapes/grape juice that's been aged a REALLY long time.  The stuff is all natural but still alcoholic.



I am no expert on this, but those are good points. 

I think we have had a "do you drink" thread. I'll see if I can bump it.


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## chellero (Jul 1, 2008)

Supergirl said:


> Yes, but during this life we must be concerned with the witness we bare here on earth. We would probably need to start a new thread, but having a beer with a coworker is certainly not representative of Jesus. Someone sitting in a bar/restaurant with their cross necklace on and drinking a beer



I don't see any Biblical basis for not drinking alcohol.  There are warnings against overindulging, but that's not what we're talking about.  I think that often times people say that we are in the world, not of the world, and then try to use the world's standards for what a Christian should be.  Where in the Bible does it say that Christians shouldn't consume alcohol at all?  Not drinking because in the mind of some worldly people Christians shouldn't drink makes no sense.  ETA: The Christians shouldn't drink mentality is very much an American thing.  In other countries people aren't nearly so uptight about it.


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## Supergirl (Jul 1, 2008)

chellero said:


> I don't see any Biblical basis for not drinking alcohol.  There are warnings against overindulging, but that's not what we're talking about.  I think that often times people say that we are in the world, not of the world, and then try to use the world's standards for what a Christian should be.  *Where in the Bible does it say that Christians shouldn't consume alcohol at all?*  Not drinking because in the mind of some worldly people Christians shouldn't drink makes no sense.  ETA: The Christians shouldn't drink mentality is very much an American thing.  In other countries people aren't nearly so uptight about it.





 I just want to point out that just because the Bible doesn't say something word for word or directly doesn't mean it's okay for a Believer to take part in it. The Bible doesn't say no clubbing, no shacking, no a whole bunch of other things.


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## chellero (Jul 1, 2008)

Supergirl said:


> I just want to point out that just because the Bible doesn't say something word for word or directly doesn't mean it's okay for a Believer to take part in it. The Bible doesn't say no clubbing, no shacking, no a whole bunch of other things.



I realize this.  The Bible doesn't say anything about clubbing because going to a club and dancing isn't a sin.  It does speak about fornication and fleeing temptation so obviously living with someone that you want to have sex with but aren't married to is a bad idea.  

 But not only does the Bible not forbid the drinking of alcohol, it actually speaks of it in a positive way in several scriptures.  It's interesting to me how people take actions that they disapprove of personally and claim that they have something to do with Christianity.  If we are going to prohibit things that the Bible doesn't speak of then why stop at wine.  Why not soda because of the caffeine and kool aid because of the sugar?


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## Supergirl (Jul 1, 2008)

chellero said:


> I realize this.  The Bible doesn't say anything about clubbing because going to a club and dancing isn't a sin.  It does speak about fornication and fleeing temptation so obviously living with someone that you want to have sex with but aren't married to is a bad idea.
> 
> But not only does the Bible not forbid the drinking of alcohol, it actually speaks of it in a positive way in several scriptures.  It's interesting to me how people take actions that they disapprove of personally and claim that they have something to do with Christianity.  If we are going to prohibit things that the Bible doesn't speak of then why stop at wine.  Why not soda because of the caffeine and kool aid because of the sugar?



Really? So if you saw Jesus (or even your pastor) at da club drinking a beer, it would be no big deal, huh?


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## chellero (Jul 1, 2008)

Supergirl said:


> Really? So if you saw Jesus (or even your pastor) at da club drinking a beer, it would be no big deal, huh?



I'd be surprised because my pastor and Jesus are both a little old to be in the club.   Jesus did drink alcohol though. But there is no Biblical reason that a Christian should abstain from alcohol and dancing.  I think that if Christians were less uptight and judgmental (and I mean looking down your nose at people judgmental, not the other kind) then a lot more people would want to be Christians.  Maybe they'd realize that fun doesn't come to an end when you put God first in your life.  One person may choose to drink (or wear a diamond earring) and another person may choose not to drink but both choices are fine and neither choice is more Christian than the other.


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## Supergirl (Jul 2, 2008)

chellero said:


> I'd be surprised because my pastor and Jesus are both a little old to be in the club.   Jesus did drink alcohol though. But there is no Biblical reason that a Christian should abstain from alcohol and dancing.  I think that if Christians were less uptight and judgmental (and I mean looking down your nose at people judgmental, not the other kind) then a lot more people would want to be Christians.  Maybe they'd realize that fun doesn't come to an end when you put God first in your life.  One person may choose to drink (or wear a diamond earring) and another person may choose not to drink but both choices are fine *and neither choice is more Christian than the other.*



It seems like you continue to miss my point. I have not said that a certain behavior is not "Christian." I have said that certain behaviors can make us appear to be just like those in the world. 

Now, I must say that I realize that everyone is at a different place in their Christian walk. There was a time when I felt that certain things were okay for me to do as a Christian. As I continued, I realized that certain things just didn't look right for me to be doing. Some might say why care what others think, but in the life of a Christian we are on display. We are His light, so it does matter. People notice us. I am not perfect, and Christianity is not about being perfect but about trying to the best of our ability to represent Him and give him glory. 

Clubbing for a Christian--wow. I've done it though, but how crazy for me to have had my behind in the pew on Sunday morning and in the club on Sunday night! Last time I'll say this--it's all about the association. What kind of associations are there with clubbing? --none that are becoming to the life of a Christian.


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## Monigirl (Jul 2, 2008)

I agree with you Supergirl. It would destract me too to see a man of God wearing a diamond earring, tattoos or nose ring.

To me I see it sending the wrong message to the youth of the church.

Personaly, I would not like it b/c my son would be watching that man of God and will see it and think that it should be ok b/c leader of the church is doing that. Most importantly he is an example to men and women of God. It would make me mad if my son came home one day with an earring in his ear and said "pastor has one too".  

*Ask yourself this question: What if Obama all of a sudden got an earring? Would that effect his appeal to people he is reaching? Would it distract you? I think YES!!! Same goes for a man of God. You know that would look wrong!!!! A president select sporting an earring at a debates!? For men in leadership positions to me, it just doesn't look right *


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## cheetarah1980 (Jul 2, 2008)

No one has yet to explain the "worldly image" that an earring portrays.  What specific non Christian behavior does wearing an earring point to?  I'm specifically talking about an earring on a man.  
I said before that to me an earring on a man conotates youth.  Earrings are something boys get when they're 10-18 years old cause they think it's cool. But I'm still not seeing anything negative that wearing an earring points toward.  Maybe that would help some us understand where the opposition comes from.  
In my personal opinion too many Christians are worried about their image moreso than the substance behind that image.


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## Monigirl (Jul 2, 2008)

cheetarah1980 said:


> I'm specifically talking about an earring on a man.
> I said before that to me an earring on a man conotates youth. Earrings are something boys get when they're 10-18 years old cause they think it's cool.


 
You made a good point about earring on a young man. But usaully young men are not leaders of a church or presidency. _* And young men are more childish and immature. To me the question is what does wearing an earring on a older man conotate*_? 

*The bible say this*: When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 1 Corinthians 13:11
*And to me an earring is childish*.


I believe an older man wearing an earring is trying to reflect his wealth (b/c you know that bling cost money), sex appeal or attractiveness (b/c and older man is no longer trying to look cute but sexy and maybe his wife thinks he looks sexier with it) & it is attention getting to young men. 

If your dad came to a family reunion with an earring what would you think or say to him? * What if Obama all of a sudden got an earring?* Would that effect his appeal to people he is reaching?  What if Nelson Mandila got one all of a sudden? Would it distract you b/c they are in leasdership positions? I think YES!!! Same goes for a man of God. You know that would look wrong!!!! A president select sporting an earring at a debates!?* For men in leadership positions to me, it just doesn't look right *


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## chellero (Jul 2, 2008)

Supergirl said:


> It seems like you continue to miss my point. I have not said that a certain behavior is not "Christian." I have said that certain behaviors can make us appear to be just like those in the world.
> 
> Now, I must say that I realize that everyone is at a different place in their Christian walk. There was a time when I felt that certain things were okay for me to do as a Christian. As I continued, I realized that certain things just didn't look right for me to be doing. Some might say why care what others think, but in the life of a Christian we are on display. We are His light, so it does matter. People notice us. I am not perfect, and Christianity is not about being perfect but about trying to the best of our ability to represent Him and give him glory.
> 
> Clubbing for a Christian--wow. I've done it though, but how crazy for me to have had my behind in the pew on Sunday morning and in the club on Sunday night! Last time I'll say this--it's all about the association. What kind of associations are there with clubbing? --none that are becoming to the life of a Christian.



I completely understand what you are saying I just disagree. I think that you are missing my point as well.  In many ways your position is more like the Pharisees then Biblical.  IMO a man with a earring isn't giving any sort of negative reflection of Christianity and neither is a Christian with a beer or wearing makeup, or wearing a knee length skirt (once considered scandalous.)  These are just personal preferences of *yours *(talking about the earring and the beer here) that you believe  have an unsavory association and therefore think should be avoided by other Christians.  That being your opinion doesn't make it true or Biblical.


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## cheetarah1980 (Jul 2, 2008)

Monigirl said:


> You made a good point about earring on a young man. But usaully young men are not leaders of a church or presidency. _*And young men are more childish and immature. To me the question is what does wearing an earring on a older man conotate*_?
> 
> *The bible say this*: When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 1 Corinthians 13:11
> *And to me an earring is childish*.
> ...


 
Thank you for being specific. And yes, I would find it quite odd if the President-elect all of a sudden got an earring.  Now if he'd been on the political scene since his 20s and always had an earring, I wouldn't think anything of it because I'd be used to it (sort of like I'm used to Hillary's bad haircuts).  But if Obama or McCain (who are both over 40) started sporting an earring tomorrow I too would see it as quite juvenile.


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## Supergirl (Jul 2, 2008)

Moni,

You seemed to have done a good job putting it in a way that I haven't been able to.  Also, your Obama example is something I totally never thought of, and it's a good example. A man with an earring just projects something different than one without. 

Cheetarah,

I'm sorry I haven't been able to explain "wordly image" better. I wouldn't be able to explain it for a lot of things. It just is what it is. It just looks the way it looks.

I agree with you that what's behind the image is important, but the image itself IS indeed important if we are to be representatives of Christ. This is similar to the reason that a good parent tries not to send their children out un-groomed and raggedy looking. Parents don't want their children's image to be a certain way because whatever the child's image is when they are outside the home, they are representing the parents.


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## Supergirl (Jul 2, 2008)

chellero said:


> I completely understand what you are saying I just disagree. I think that you are missing my point as well.  In many ways your position is more like the Pharisees then Biblical.  IMO a man with a earring isn't giving any sort of negative reflection of Christianity and neither is a Christian with a beer or wearing makeup, or wearing a knee length skirt (once considered scandalous.)  These are just personal preferences of *yours *(talking about the earring and the beer here) that you believe  have an unsavory association and therefore think should be avoided by other Christians.  That being your opinion doesn't make it true or Biblical.



You are mistaken in saying that these are personal preferences of mine and that that is the reason I say Christians should avoid certain things. You'd have an easy time finding many other Christians who would also say that certain things are not becoming if we call ourselves representing Christ. It is certainly more than my opinion that Christians are representative of Christ and should conduct themselves accordingly to the best of their ability. 

Now, the fact that you approve of clubbing tells me that you and I are in two totally different places so I think that perhaps our dialogue on this matter is somewhat useless and unproductive.


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## sprungonhairboards (Jul 2, 2008)

chellero said:


> I'd be surprised because *my pastor and Jesus are both a little old to be in the club. *  Jesus did drink alcohol though. But there is no Biblical reason that a Christian should abstain from alcohol and dancing.  I think that if Christians were less uptight and judgmental (and I mean looking down your nose at people judgmental, not the other kind) then a lot more people would want to be Christians.  Maybe they'd realize that fun doesn't come to an end when you put God first in your life.  One person may choose to drink (or wear a diamond earring) and another person may choose not to drink but both choices are fine and neither choice is more Christian than the other.



 

*picturing Jesus in the club*


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## PaperClip (Jul 2, 2008)

Supergirl said:


> Really? So if you saw Jesus (or even your pastor) at da club drinking a beer, it would be no big deal, huh?


 
Trick question!

First of all, my pastor (God love him!) is GANGSTA all the way (gangsta in that he goes hard for the Lord) and he reminisces on his '70s music! It's quite hilarious, esp. since many in the congregation (young and old) know a lot of the songs! Just this past Sunday, he was talking about fads and how some of these fads today (he mentioned the hanging pants specifically) and how that particular fad is quite stupid, for one it impairs one's ability to walk straight, depending on how far down the pants are....

Anywho, the pastor talked about some of the fads from the '70s, and he started singing the old song "Be Thankful for What You Got" and these lyrics: "Diamond in the back, sunroof top, Diggin' the scene With a gangsta lean...." and we started laughin'.... But then I guess it felt good to him 'cause he kept singin' it and like half the congregation hummed it with him! It was hilarious!

So I said all that to say that when I read the question about seeing the Lord or my pastor at the club drinkin' a beer (ugh!), my first (of several) thought was "well, if I'm seein either one of them at the club, I must be there, too so what I got to say?" 

My second thought that popped into my head was from the Word of God:

Matthew 15:11: "11Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man" (KJV)

"It is not what goes into the mouth of a man that makes him unclean and defiled, but what comes out of the mouth; this makes a man unclean and defiles [him]." (Amplified)

And my GO-TO scripture for these types of topics is this one: 1 Corinthians 6:12:

11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. 


* 12All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.* 
 13Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.​And apparently the Lord thought it was so nice he had the Apostle Paul say it twice: 1 Corinthians 10:22-24 

22Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he? 


* 23All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.*  
24Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.​The Message version of 1 Corinthians 10:23 helps me to clarify my point:

23-24Looking at it one way, you could say, "Anything goes. Because of God's immense generosity and grace, we don't have to dissect and scrutinize every action to see if it will pass muster." But the point is not to just get by. We want to live well, but our foremost efforts should be to help others live well. 

Because of FREE WILL, we can go into a bar or wear an earring... but is it GOOD for us? Is it good for our witness to others? Is it good for cultivating an intimate relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ? Is it good for us to represent Him accurately here on Planet Earth?

Simply, it isn't.


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## Supergirl (Jul 2, 2008)

FoxyScholar said:


> Trick question!
> 
> First of all, my pastor (God love him!) is GANGSTA all the way (gangsta in that he goes hard for the Lord) and he reminisces on his '70s music! It's quite hilarious, esp. since many in the congregation (young and old) know a lot of the songs! Just this past Sunday, he was talking about fads and how some of these fads today (he mentioned the hanging pants specifically) and how that particular fad is quite stupid, for one it impairs one's ability to walk straight, depending on how far down the pants are....
> 
> ...



I think that's my main point there. (the bolded) I'm not calling certain actions sinful. They're actually not. But as your final paragraph says, does it help us to represent Him accurately here on earth? 

That's all a sista is sayin'


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## PinkPebbles (Jul 2, 2008)

I personally do not like the style of any man wearing an earring, whether it be pastor, dad, brother, etc.

A little off topic: Several months ago the controller at my company made a comment that he would not hire or promote any man that wears an earring. My coworker asked him why and he said "because neither I nor the board-room would take that man seriously...."

Indeed interesting, which goes to show people are perceived based on their appearance whether it's right or wrong .


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## chellero (Jul 2, 2008)

Supergirl said:


> You are mistaken in saying that these are personal preferences of mine and that that is the reason I say Christians should avoid certain things. You'd have an easy time finding many other Christians who would also say that certain things are not becoming if we call ourselves representing Christ. It is certainly more than my opinion that Christians are representative of Christ and should conduct themselves accordingly to the best of their ability.
> 
> Now, the fact that you approve of clubbing tells me that you and I are in two totally different places so I think that perhaps our dialogue on this matter is somewhat useless and unproductive.



Just because many other Christians agree with you doesn't make any less like the Pharisees.  There are Christians who think that makeup,jewelery and pants on women are inappropriate and misrepresent Christianity.  That is no more  true then your opinion on the earring.  Your attitude (and that of many other Christians) is more like that of the Pharisees than Biblical.  Your opinions about clubs, alcohol and earrings are individual lifestyle preferences and not universal Christian principles.  *Someone else not meeting your non-Biblically based notions about what a Christian should look like doesn't mean that they are misrepresenting Christ in any way.  
*
And for the record I don't personally go "clubbing", but it's not my place to approve or disapprove of it.  I make decisions for myself only and don't judge others on issues that aren't Biblically based.


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## LuvLiLocks (Jul 2, 2008)

Doesn't bother me any. As long as the it is not huge and distracting, he could be sporting a pair. I don't think it really matters if his heart is right with God.


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## cheetarah1980 (Jul 2, 2008)

chellero said:


> Just because many other Christians agree with you doesn't make any less like the Pharisees. There are Christians who think that makeup,jewelery and pants on women are inappropriate and misrepresent Christianity. That is no more true then your opinion on the earring. Your attitude (and that of many other Christians) is more like that of the Pharisees than Biblical. Your opinions about clubs, alcohol and earrings are individual lifestyle preferences and not universal Christian principles. *Someone else not meeting your non-Biblically based notions about what a Christian should look like doesn't mean that they are misrepresenting Christ in any way. *
> 
> And for the record I don't personally go "clubbing", but it's not my place to approve or disapprove of it. I make decisions for myself only and don't judge others on issues that aren't Biblically based.


 
The line in red is what I agree with whole-heartedly.  Who is determining exactly how a Christian should look.  Personally, I don't think any Christian woman should walk around wearing long, shapeless, flowery dresses that are reminiscent of Little House on the Prairie.  It sends the message that Christian women are uptight, unstylish, unfeminine, etc. I don't want people seeing this and thinking all Christians are like that and lump me into that group.
Does this mean that no Christian woman should wear the Little House on the Prairie dress. NOPE. Just because I don't like the dress or the statement that it makes doesn't mean that it's improrper for others to wear it.  Some people just don't like the image that an earring on a man gives off.  However, just because that's the image that YOU see, doesn't mean that's the image EVERYONE sees. 
Let me put it to you this way.  Some people see a woman with a relaxed head of hair and think that she must have deep self-hate issues.  Does that mean that they are right?  Would you now stop relaxing your hair because a few people feel that it gives off the impression that you are unhappy with the way God made you?  I doubt it, because not EVERYONE who sees your relaxed hair has that impression. In the end, why make decisions about what constitutes an improper image based on non-universal ques?  Are we saying now that Christians also shouldn't wear leather jackets and ride motorcycles because non-Christians do it too?  Where do we draw the line?


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## imani97 (Jul 2, 2008)

Nefertiti0906 said:


> I think that's were it can get subjective.
> 
> Here's some examples:
> 
> ...



I agree. I think that appropriateness and what is of the world can be subjective. I will say however, that I was quite disappointed on easter when the pastor was chillin - and yes he was chillin- w/ some jeans on. His boys were literally lounging on a couch in the pulpit. His boys were his associate pastors, but that's exactly how they presented themselves. I didn't like it one bit, but I did have to realize, who defines how pastors should look?


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## NGraceO (Jul 2, 2008)

My opinion is honestly....whatever. A diamond earring in a preacher's ear?? It all has to do with image....how everyone _else _sees him. The only thing that really matters is how *He* sees him....his _heart_ matters, not his _ears_. Also (to the author of this thread), like you said, not everyone is on the same level in their walk as you. Therefore, maybe the 8-page long thread about discussing a preacher's apparal is pretty useless. Thats what you think. period. Not everyone agrees. period. I think we should just leave it at that. I think we could accomplished much more in a thread of more substance than *jewelery on a preacher.* God Bless!


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## Supergirl (Jul 2, 2008)

Nnelove said:


> My opinion is honestly....whatever. A diamond earring in a preacher's ear?? It all has to do with image....how everyone _else _sees him. The only thing that really matters is how *He* sees him....his _heart_ matters, not his _ears_. Also (to the author of this thread), like you said, *not everyone is on the same level in their walk as you.* Therefore, maybe the 8-page long thread about discussing a preacher's apparal is pretty useless. Thats what you think. period. Not everyone agrees. period. I think we should just leave it at that. I think we could accomplished much more in a thread of more substance than jewelery on a preacher. God Bless!



Just wanted to say that I made sure I didn't use those words. I said "in a different place." I didn't want to make it sound like one Christian's "level" is higher or better than another.

But yes, this is true. We are all at different places. I do remember when I thought certain things were okay for Christians. I remember changing some things I did, not because it was necessarily a sin, but because I said I was representing Christ and I needed to present myself accordingly. 

And I agree that the heart matters most, but the presentation DOES matter.

ETA: And no, I wouldn't say the thread is useless. You'll notice on the first post that I asked for a discussion and sharing of thoughts, not for everyone who agrees with this to chime in. I see nothing wrong with the discussion. This IS a discussion board, so we discuss. I've certainly learned some things through this discussion. So, no I don't agree that it's useless and while the topic was started based on an earring this thread involves much more than the discussion of an earring. It's not even about the earring. It's about sanctification.


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## Supergirl (Jul 3, 2008)

_Food for Thought:_

*In connection with Moni's post, how would Barack Obama (or John McCain for that matter) be received if he wore an earring? Should the president wear an earring? Why or why not? Would it be no big deal if the president wore an earring? Why or why not? 
*Should a man wear his earring to a job interview? Why or why not?
*Should a man wear his earring as he stands at the pearly gates to meet Jesus? Why or why not?
*Should a man walk around Heaven with his earring? Why or why not? 
*When Jesus comes back for the rapture, would it be cool/no big deal if he were floating down on the cloud with an earring in his ear? Why or why not? 
*If you saw images of Jesus hanging on the cross with a diamond stud in his ear, would that be cool? Why or why not? 
*on the matter of beer/alcohol: Should a Christian sit across the table from someone sharing the good news of Jesus with an unbeliever as he or she (the Believer) drinks a beer? Why or why not? 

not asking that anyone respond (unless they just want to)--they're just food for thought questions; try to be honest and be teachable as you think about the questions


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## cheetarah1980 (Jul 3, 2008)

Supergirl said:


> _Food for Thought:_
> 
> *In connection with Moni's post, how would Barack Obama (or John McCain for that matter) be received if he wore an earring? Should the president wear an earring? Why or why not? Would it be no big deal if the president wore an earring? Why or why not?
> *Should a man wear his earring to a job interview? Why or why not?
> ...


 
I can answer all of your questions with one answer.  There is a time and a place for everything.  Nothing you mentioned is wrong in and of itself.  However, some actions may be inappropriate in certain settings.  A man wouldn't wear an earring to a job interview anymore than a woman would wear a pair of jeans.  Is it wrong to wear jeans? No.  But an interview is not the setting for that.
Is it wrong for a Christian to have a beer? No.  But maybe drinking 1 beer in front of a recovering alcoholic wouldn't be a good idea.  As for whether a Christian should share the gospel of Jesus with an unbeliever over a beer, I don't see a problem.  I think the message would be clouded or tainted if the Christian was throwing back the beers like it was water.  However, ONE beer in a casual setting w/ a friend who is NOT a believer (and does NOT have a problem with alcohol) would not taint the message of Christ because the Biblical warning is against drunkeness, not overall drinking.  I don't know a single person who thinks someone is getting DRUNK if they only have one drink. In fact, I might say it would make Christ seem more real and his human nature if a Christian shared a beer with them when talking about our Messiah.  Actually, if you look at Matthew 9:10-13 Jesus teaches the Pharisees as he's eating and drinking (I'm talking about the dinner w/ Matthew, tax collectors, his disciples and sinners).  Notice they don't have an issue with Jesus because he's drinking, but because he's in the company of sinful people.  Jesus shared wine with Matthew (the most vile type of sinner in Israel: a tax collector), but that did not stop Matthew from receiving the gospel and following Jesus.
I'm going to put this out there.  I honestly think that many of the limitations non-believers put on Christians are self-imposed by Christians themselves.  What I mean is this, it's our own fault that an unbeliever may look at us negatively if we have ONE drink in their presence because some of us have been so VOCAL about alcohol being evil, in and of itself, when the Bible NEVER gives such a message.  Like I said before Jesus drank wine (and yes it was alcoholic wine).  Even if the water was too dirty to drink, if alcohol was forbidden he would've abstained completely and drank something else.  Christians have added fence laws to God's word, and since unbelievers don't know God's word they take everything every Christian says at face value as being part of the faith whether it is or is not.  I personally will NOT be bound by expectations of man when God does not have those expectations himself.


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## Supergirl (Jul 3, 2008)

Drinking alcohol then as opposed to now: It was pretty much the only choice then. Drinking alcohol then was the equivalent to us having a something like a juice or water today. Drinking it now takes on a different meaning than it did then. Would Jesus have a beer today? 

If an earring is inappropriate in certain settings, _why_ is that? Why is it inappropriate in certain settings?

ETA: BTW Cheetarah, just want to add a personal note for you. Your posts, of the ones who don't see earrings on men of God as a big deal, have been the most insightful for me. I can tell that for you it is not a matter of wanting to justify certain actions, but that your thoughts on this topic are sincere ones.


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## cheetarah1980 (Jul 3, 2008)

Supergirl said:


> Drinking alcohol then as opposed to now: It was pretty much the only choice then. Drinking alcohol then was the equivalent to us having a something like a juice or water today. Drinking it now takes on a different meaning than it did then. Would Jesus have a beer today?
> 
> If an earring is inappropriate in certain settings, _why_ is that? Why is it inappropriate in certain settings?
> 
> ETA: BTW Cheetarah, just want to add a personal note for you. Your posts, of the ones who don't see earrings on men of God as a big deal, have been the most insightful for me. I can tell that for you it is not a matter of wanting to justify certain actions, but that your thoughts on this topic are sincere ones.


Thanks Supergirl. I can tell the same about you.

As for why an earring is inappropriate in certain settings.  It could be seen as too casual or juvenile or ostentatious.  You could ask why are jeans not appropriate in certain settings.  Or why you wouldn't wear a tux to a ho-down.  Are any of these things bad in and of themselves?  No.  However, there is a time and a place where wearing any of these items would not be appropriate.  
Maybe wearing an earring in the pulpit would be distracting to certain congregations.  If this is the case for his congregation, then he shouldn't wear it.  Just like at some churches if the pastor wore jeans to preach, people would be up in arms.  My church home is extremely casual so when one of the pastors preaches in jeans, it's not a big deal.  Just as I don't think it would be a big deal if any of them had an earring.  But that has more to do with the environment in which they are working.  So maybe it all has to do with setting.  In a more conservative/formal setting things like jeans or earrings wouldn't be acceptable.  But in more laid back/casual settings it's not a big deal. 
As for the alcohol issue, if alcohol was the only choice for drinking then children would've been drinking it too and there's no indication that they were.  There were non-alcoholic beverages available as well so if alcohol was off limits they did have other options.  The demonization of all things alcoholic is relatively recent (as within the last 120 years) and championed by Christians.  Yes, excessive drinking is a problem.  But there are proven medical benefits to certain drinks (i.e. red wine) in moderation.  The key is moderation.  Why throw the baby out with the bath water?  Yes, alcohol can lead to drunkeness and addiction, but it doesn't have to.  Personal judgement and wisdom must come into play.  It's sort of like food.  We need food to live.  However, when people don't eat in moderation food can become deadly leading to morbid obesity, heart problems, high blood pressure, diabetes, and more. Does this mean we should not eat.  Once again, it's about judgement.  Do I think Jesus would have a beer in this day and age?  No.  I would think he'd enjoy a glass of aged red wine.  He just doesn't strike me as a beer man.


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## Supergirl (Jul 3, 2008)

cheetarah1980 said:


> Thanks Supergirl. I can tell the same about you.
> 
> As for why an earring is inappropriate in certain settings.  It could be seen as too casual or juvenile or ostentatious.  You could ask why are jeans not appropriate in certain settings.  Or why you wouldn't wear a tux to a ho-down.  Are any of these things bad in and of themselves?  No.  However, there is a time and a place where wearing any of these items would not be appropriate.
> Maybe wearing an earring in the pulpit would be distracting to certain congregations.  If this is the case for his congregation, then he shouldn't wear it.  Just like at some churches if the pastor wore jeans to preach, people would be up in arms.  My church home is extremely casual so when one of the pastors preaches in jeans, it's not a big deal.  Just as I don't think it would be a big deal if any of them had an earring.  But that has more to do with the environment in which they are working.  So maybe it all has to do with setting.  In a more conservative/formal setting things like jeans or earrings wouldn't be acceptable.  But in more laid back/casual settings it's not a big deal.
> As for the alcohol issue, if alcohol was the only choice for drinking then children would've been drinking it too and there's no indication that they were.  There were non-alcoholic beverages available as well so if alcohol was off limits they did have other options.  The demonization of all things alcoholic is relatively recent (as within the last 120 years) and championed by Christians.  Yes, excessive drinking is a problem.  But there are proven medical benefits to certain drinks (i.e. red wine) in moderation.  The key is moderation.  Why throw the baby out with the bath water?  Yes, alcohol can lead to drunkeness and addiction, but it doesn't have to.  Personal judgement and wisdom must come into play.  It's sort of like food.  We need food to live.  However, when people don't eat in moderation food can become deadly leading to morbid obesity, heart problems, high blood pressure, diabetes, and more. Does this mean we should not eat.  Once again, it's about judgement.  Do I think Jesus would have a beer in this day and age?  No.  I would think he'd enjoy a glass of aged red wine.  He just doesn't strike me as a beer man.



That's a good point about the children not drinking, but just as there's no evidence of them drinking the wine there's also no evidence that they didn't drink it either. They very well could have. 

The point I was getting at in asking why a man shouldn't wear an earring to a job interview is that the same reasons that he shouldn't, (president shouldn't, Jesus wouldn't when returning for the rapture, and too many people would be upset if there were images of Jesus on the cross with a diamond stud in his ear) are the same reasons why it's a counterproductive witness for a man of God, especially a man of the cloth to do so.


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## Shimmie (Jul 3, 2008)

This is an excellent thread and I think everyone has given wonderful responses, even those that I disagree with.  

Angels, I sit here with two views:

First, I do not think it is appropriate for a man of God to stand before a congregation looking like a music video.      I'm sorry, :blush3: but that's the impression that it gives me. 

It seems to me and others -- many others, that the lifestyles of men who wear earrings are usually the ones who need Jesus in their lives and need Him bad.  It's just not appropriate.  It's not.    Why look the part of a hood and then try to preach the hood out of hooders?  What's the point?   

And if this man is 'older' then he IS having an identity with age issue.  Grow up and preach Jesus and leave the earrings home.  Wear them on 'surprise' night with the wife and leave it at that. 

*However,*  there is a man that I love dearly and he wears two earrings -- diamond studs.  And he is as* Black *and as *Beautiful* as any man could be.  And I'm able to look past his earrings and I see 'him', not the gem except for the 'gem' that lives on the inside of him.   

He's a dearly loved family friend and he's currently in Iraq.   Do his earrings matter?  No.  I just want him safely home and back with us enjoying Bar-be-ques, pizza, oreo mint cookies, ice cream, dancing (he has a very funny pop n lock)  , and he always comes to me for prayer and just to talk.  

I miss him.......diamond earrings and all.  His name is Michael; we call him 'Mike-Mike', and he smiles a smile that outshines the diamond studs in his ears...always.   

*You know what Supergirl?* :scratchch:  It's not so much the earring as it is the *'Spirit' *that you and I and others are discerning with this particular Pastor.  We sense more beyond the appearance; for this earring is merely a manisfestation of something else going on in the 'Spiritual Realm' which is what's really the issue here. 

cheetarah, you are so correct about certain settings...  

It's not the earring so much as what is attached to it, beyond this man's ear.  For why would he allow himself to become 'suspect' when God calls us to walk 'circumspect' before Him.

Love and blessings to each of you angels.  I truly mean it...


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## Ms.Honey (Jul 3, 2008)

I haven't read all of the post but I did skim throught some of them.

Jesus turned water into wine so there's nothing wrong with drinking in general. Protestant Christians in America don't drink stemming from Prohibition. For us to drink now would make us poor witness because folks expect us not to. Christians in other countries drink, no biggie there, not a poor witness. It will always be a poor witness for American Christians to drink.

I personally would not listen to a minister/pastor who had body piercings, other than earrings on a woman, or tattoes. We are to be modest for our time and tats and peircings aren't modest. It's too wordly, stop conforming to the world and conform to Christ.


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## lovedone_24 (Jul 3, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> I haven't read all of the post but I did skim throught some of them.
> 
> Jesus turned water into wine so there's nothing wrong with drinking in general. Protestant Christians in America don't drink stemming from Prohibition. *For us to drink now would make us poor witness because folks expect us not to.* Christians in other countries drink, no biggie there, not a poor witness. It will always be a poor witness for American Christians to drink.
> 
> I personally would not listen to a minister/pastor who had body piercings, other than earrings on a woman, or tattoes. We are to be modest for our time and tats and peircings aren't modest. It's too wordly, stop conforming to the world and conform to Christ.


Is that not taking the world's (or at least America's) opinion on the matter? I think this thread is a reflection of why a lot of people are on this "religion of one" kick. There are many people out there who read the Word, proclaim to be saved, yet have not found a Church home or do not attend regularly. People are tired of the add-ons. If there is no scripture to suggest wrong-doing then who are we? Do I think the earring is in bad taste? Yes. However, I think loud suits are in bad taste. The heart of this man is what counts. I've found that usually the most outwardly demure Christians have the _worst _attitudes.


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## cheetarah1980 (Jul 3, 2008)

lovedone_24 said:


> Is that not taking the world's (or at least America's) opinion on the matter? I think this thread is a reflection of why a lot of people are on this "religion of one" kick. There are many people out there who read the Word, proclaim to be saved, yet have not found a Church home or do not attend regularly. People are tired of the add-ons. If there is no scripture to suggest wrong-doing then who are we? *Do I think the earring is in bad taste? Yes. However, I think loud suits are in bad taste.* The heart of this man is what counts. I've found that usually the most outwardly demure Christians have the _worst _attitudes.


And this is my point EXACTLY!!! It's a matter of taste.  When I lived in Minnesota my mother and younger brother came to visit me during Easter weekend.  I took them to my church home that Sunday for services.  My pastor was wearing a blinding white suit w/ a pink shirt and tie.  Both my mother and brother thought the outfit was tacky and made him look like a big, flashy, televangelist scammer.  Although, this was their opinion no one in my congregation (that I know of) felt the same way.  To everyone at my church home, the pastor was dressed appropriately in his Easter best to celebrate the resurrection of our Messiah.  
Because my mother and brother saw the outfit in a negative light, does that mean my pastor should not have worn it?  Does it mean he was negatively portraying Christ?  No.  In the religious tradition that he and the flock he shephards came from, his outfit was standard.  However, from the religious tradition that my family comes from, the outfit was in bad taste.  
I think the earring is the same.  I think the appropriateness is in the eye of the beholder.  Some folks see flashy suit and think scam artist.  Others see flashy suit and see Sunday's best.  Some people see an earring on a man and think hood or music video bling.  Others see an earring on a man as a simple piece of jewelry no different than a simple gold chain or wedding band.  Now if that earring is like 2 carats and just BLINGING, well then we're all thinking DAAAYYYUM!!!


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## Ms.Honey (Jul 3, 2008)

lovedone_24 said:


> Is that not taking the world's (or at least America's) opinion on the matter? I think this thread is a reflection of why a lot of people are on this "religion of one" kick. There are many people out there who read the Word, proclaim to be saved, yet have not found a Church home or do not attend regularly. People are tired of the add-ons. If there is no scripture to suggest wrong-doing then who are we? Do I think the earring is in bad taste? Yes. However, I think loud suits are in bad taste. The heart of this man is what counts. I've found that usually the most outwardly demure Christians have the _worst _attitudes.


 

People don't go to church because they don't want to bottom line. Paul said I am all things to all people. If eating meat is a stumbling block then don't eat meat. It's not an add-on it's scriptural.


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## PaperClip (Jul 3, 2008)

cheetarah1980 said:


> And this is my point EXACTLY!!! It's a matter of taste. When I lived in Minnesota my mother and younger brother came to visit me during Easter weekend. I took them to my church home that Sunday for services. *My pastor was wearing a blinding white suit w/ a pink shirt and tie.* Both my mother and brother thought the outfit was tacky and made him look like a big, flashy, televangelist scammer. Although, this was their opinion no one in my congregation (that I know of) felt the same way. To everyone at my church home, the pastor was dressed appropriately in his Easter best to celebrate the resurrection of our Messiah.
> Because my mother and brother saw the outfit in a negative light, does that mean my pastor should not have worn it? Does it mean he was negatively portraying Christ? No. In the religious tradition that he and the flock he shephards came from, his outfit was standard. However, from the religious tradition that my family comes from, the outfit was in bad taste.
> I think the earring is the same. I think the appropriateness is in the eye of the beholder. Some folks see flashy suit and think scam artist. Others see flashy suit and see Sunday's best. Some people see an earring on a man and think hood or music video bling. Others see an earring on a man as a simple piece of jewelry no different than a simple gold chain or wedding band. Now if that earring is like 2 carats and just BLINGING, well then we're all thinking DAAAYYYUM!!!


 
That sound like it could look quite clean if it's well tailored.... I like a nice suit....  How can white be blinding?


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## Ms.Honey (Jul 3, 2008)

cheetarah1980 said:


> And this is my point EXACTLY!!! It's a matter of taste. When I lived in Minnesota my mother and younger brother came to visit me during Easter weekend. I took them to my church home that Sunday for services. My pastor was wearing a blinding white suit w/ a pink shirt and tie. Both my mother and brother thought the outfit was tacky and made him look like a big, flashy, televangelist scammer. Although, this was their opinion no one in my congregation (that I know of) felt the same way. To everyone at my church home, the pastor was dressed appropriately in his Easter best to celebrate the resurrection of our Messiah.
> Because my mother and brother saw the outfit in a negative light, does that mean my pastor should not have worn it? Does it mean he was negatively portraying Christ? No. In the religious tradition that he and the flock he shephards came from, his outfit was standard. However, from the religious tradition that my family comes from, the outfit was in bad taste.
> I think the earring is the same. I think the appropriateness is in the eye of the beholder. Some folks see flashy suit and think scam artist. Others see flashy suit and see Sunday's best. Some people see an earring on a man and think hood or music video bling. Others see an earring on a man as a simple piece of jewelry no different than a simple gold chain or wedding band. Now if that earring is like 2 carats and just BLINGING, well then we're all thinking DAAAYYYUM!!!


 
But who makes earring wearing in men popular? Thugs. Now if you want to be associated with thugs then you have succeeded. But if you want to witness to a thug don't dress like them and behave like them telling them they need a change in their lives. 

You wear the uniform of your army.


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## chellero (Jul 3, 2008)

cheetarah1980 said:


> I can answer all of your questions with one answer.  There is a time and a place for everything.  Nothing you mentioned is wrong in and of itself.  However, some actions may be inappropriate in certain settings.  A man wouldn't wear an earring to a job interview anymore than a woman would wear a pair of jeans.  Is it wrong to wear jeans? No.  But an interview is not the setting for that.
> Is it wrong for a Christian to have a beer? No.  But maybe drinking 1 beer in front of a recovering alcoholic wouldn't be a good idea.  As for whether a Christian should share the gospel of Jesus with an unbeliever over a beer, I don't see a problem.  I think the message would be clouded or tainted if the Christian was throwing back the beers like it was water.  However, ONE beer in a casual setting w/ a friend who is NOT a believer (and does NOT have a problem with alcohol) would not taint the message of Christ because the Biblical warning is against drunkeness, not overall drinking.  I don't know a single person who thinks someone is getting DRUNK if they only have one drink. In fact, I might say it would make Christ seem more real and his human nature if a Christian shared a beer with them when talking about our Messiah.  Actually, if you look at Matthew 9:10-13 Jesus teaches the Pharisees as he's eating and drinking (I'm talking about the dinner w/ Matthew, tax collectors, his disciples and sinners).  Notice they don't have an issue with Jesus because he's drinking, but because he's in the company of sinful people.  Jesus shared wine with Matthew (the most vile type of sinner in Israel: a tax collector), but that did not stop Matthew from receiving the gospel and following Jesus.
> I'm going to put this out there.  I honestly think that many of the limitations non-believers put on Christians are self-imposed by Christians themselves.  What I mean is this, it's our own fault that an unbeliever may look at us negatively if we have ONE drink in their presence because some of us have been so VOCAL about alcohol being evil, in and of itself, when the Bible NEVER gives such a message.  Like I said before Jesus drank wine (and yes it was alcoholic wine).  Even if the water was too dirty to drink, if alcohol was forbidden he would've abstained completely and drank something else.  Christians have added fence laws to God's word, and since unbelievers don't know God's word they take everything every Christian says at face value as being part of the faith whether it is or is not.  I personally will NOT be bound by expectations of man when God does not have those expectations himself.



ITA!  This is a good (and sensible) post.


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## Supergirl (Jul 3, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> But who makes earring wearing in men popular? Thugs. Now if you want to be *associated* with thugs then you have succeeded. But if you want to witness to a thug don't dress like them and behave like them telling them they need a change in their lives.
> 
> You wear the *uniform* of your army.



association & uniform--2 terms I've used in this thread. An individual will automatically be associated with the uniform he or she wears.


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## Ms.Honey (Jul 3, 2008)

Supergirl said:


> association & uniform--2 terms I've used in this thread. An individual will automatically be associated with the uniform he or she wears.


 

Yep. They world judges by the outward appearance and if we're to witness to them we must be aware of ours.


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## chellero (Jul 3, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> I haven't read all of the post but I did skim throught some of them.
> 
> Jesus turned water into wine so there's nothing wrong with drinking in general. Protestant Christians in America don't drink stemming from Prohibition. For us to drink now would make us poor witness because folks expect us not to. Christians in other countries drink, no biggie there, not a poor witness. *It will always be a poor witness for American Christians to drink.*
> 
> I personally would not listen to a minister/pastor who had body piercings, other than earrings on a woman, or tattoes. We are to be modest for our time and tats and peircings aren't modest. It's too wordly, stop conforming to the world and conform to Christ.



Well assuming that the pastor wasn't saved his whole life (and most weren't) then it's entirely possible that he could have a tattoo as tattoos are permanent.  I can't justify refusing to listen to the word of God because God chose to use someone with a tattoo.    And I completely disagree with the bolded.  I think that it is poor witness to pretend that the Bible says something that it does not.


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## Ms.Honey (Jul 3, 2008)

chellero said:


> Well assuming that the pastor wasn't saved his whole life (and most weren't) then it's entirely possible that he could have a tattoo as tattoos are permanent. I can't justify refusing to listen to the word of God because God chose to use someone with a tattoo. And I completely disagree with the bolded. I think that it is poor witness to pretend that the Bible says something that it does not.


 

Tattoes can be removed. Old tats I have no problem with, getting new tats, I wouldn't listen to you. 

The bibles says to not be a stumbling block to others and Christians drinking is a big stumbling block for unsaved folks. They are the ones who matter. 

I personally wouldn't want to recieve counseling from someone with alcohol on their breath. I want you sober. I shouldn't have to wonder how many drinks you've had before our meeting


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## cheetarah1980 (Jul 3, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> But who makes earring wearing in men popular? Thugs. Now if you want to be associated with thugs then you have succeeded. But if you want to witness to a thug don't dress like them and behave like them telling them they need a change in their lives.
> 
> You wear the uniform of your army.


Earrings on men were popular long before thugs got a hold of them.  Should Christians not ride Harley's because Hell's Angels do too?


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## Ms.Honey (Jul 3, 2008)

cheetarah1980 said:


> Earrings on men were popular long before thugs got a hold of them. Should Christians not ride Harley's because Hell's Angels do too?


 

They were made popular by thugs who wore them first is irrelevant. Ride the Harley, just don't wear a skull and crossbones. Hells Angels did not make bike riding popular.


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## cheetarah1980 (Jul 3, 2008)

So what is the Christian uniform? Could you pick out a Christian just walking down the street? Let me know so I can pick up my fit. 

As for drinking being a stumbling block, it all depends on who you're around.  If I were a light drinker (which I'm not cause I absolutely hate the taste of alcohol and won't touch it), I probably wouldn't drink in front of a certain friend of mine who is a recovering alcoholic.  It would cause her to stumble.  I also wouldn't drink in front of certain unsaved friends of mine who while they are not alcoholics do have a tendency to engage in drunkeness on occassion.  However, if I were with an unsaved friend who enjoyed an ocassional glass of red wine every now and then, me joining her in that glass would NOT be causing her to stumble as alcohol is NOT an issue for her.  Once again, it all depends on the setting and the company I am keeping.

@foxy - The suit was a bright white and the material had some shine to it, so it was kind of blinding.  When I think of a nice suit, I think of either black or gray (maybe navy) with impeccable tailoring.  White suits or colored suits (blue, red, green) are the epitome of tacky in my opinion.  Would I say that they're inappropriate? No.  It's just that whenever I see one I think of those zoot suits that Denzel and Spike Lee wore in Malcolm X when they were living the gangster lifestyle.  It's just gives off a slimy vibe in my opinion.  But that's just my personal taste and association.  Obviously you don't share my perspective.  And that's been my point throughout this entire thread.  Just because some perceive an earring as hood/gangster/tacky/juvenile/etc. does NOT mean that others do as well. So if it's a matter of personal dislike, we can't really call something inappropriate because context is key.


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## cheetarah1980 (Jul 3, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> They were made popular by thugs who wore them first is irrelevant. Ride the Harley, just don't wear a skull and crossbones. Hells Angels did not make bike riding popular.


New Kids on the Block had earrings and they were the epitome of popular.  Thugs indeed!


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## Ms.Honey (Jul 3, 2008)

cheetarah1980 said:


> New Kids on the Block had earrings and they were the epitome of popular. Thugs indeed!


 
Unsaved and ungodly. Why copy them?


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## chellero (Jul 3, 2008)

Supergirl said:


> Drinking alcohol then as opposed to now: It was pretty much the only choice then. Drinking alcohol then was the equivalent to us having a something like a juice or water today. Drinking it now takes on a different meaning than it did then. Would Jesus have a beer today?
> 
> If an earring is inappropriate in certain settings, _why_ is that? Why is it inappropriate in certain settings?
> 
> ETA: BTW Cheetarah, just want to add a personal note for you. Your posts, of the ones who don't see earrings on men of God as a big deal, have been the most insightful for me. I can tell that for you it is not a matter of wanting to justify certain actions, but that your thoughts on this topic are sincere ones.



Wine was not the equivalent of having juice or water back then.  Wine was the equivalent of wine.  People had water and fruit juice too.  Jesus was criticized in the Bible for drinking.  
_
Luke 7:33 __For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.' 34The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' 35But wisdom is proved right by all her children."

_
God doesn't change,  so I doubt that Jesus would be OK with drinking back then and anti-alcohol now just because some people decided to make up some new rules like the ones God gave in the Bible weren't enough.


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## chellero (Jul 3, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> Unsaved and ungodly. Why copy them?



How do you know that they aren't saved?  Their music sucked so it's possible that sold their souls to devil in exchange for their popularity, but I doubt it.  I don't associate earrings with thugs or NKOTB.  It's just jewelery to me.


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## Ms.Honey (Jul 3, 2008)

cheetarah1980 said:


> So what is the Christian uniform? Could you pick out a Christian just walking down the street? Let me know so I can pick up my fit.
> 
> As for drinking being a stumbling block, it all depends on who you're around. If I were a light drinker (which I'm not cause I absolutely hate the taste of alcohol and won't touch it), I probably wouldn't drink in front of a certain friend of mine who is a recovering alcoholic. It would cause her to stumble. I also wouldn't drink in front of certain unsaved friends of mine who while they are not alcoholics do have a tendency to engage in drunkeness on occassion. However, if I were with an unsaved friend who enjoyed an ocassional glass of red wine every now and then, me joining her in that glass would NOT be causing her to stumble as alcohol is NOT an issue for her. Once again, it all depends on the setting and the company I am keeping.
> 
> @foxy - The suit was a bright white and the material had some shine to it, so it was kind of blinding. When I think of a nice suit, I think of either black or gray (maybe navy) with impeccable tailoring. White suits or colored suits (blue, red, green) are the epitome of tacky in my opinion. Would I say that they're inappropriate? No. It's just that whenever I see one I think of those zoot suits that Denzel and Spike Lee wore in Malcolm X when they were living the gangster lifestyle. It's just gives off a slimy vibe in my opinion. But that's just my personal taste and association. Obviously you don't share my perspective. And that's been my point throughout this entire thread. Just because some perceive an earring as hood/gangster/tacky/juvenile/etc. does NOT mean that others do as well. So if it's a matter of personal dislike, we can't really call something inappropriate because context is key.


 


Christian uniform? Not showing your boobs, not wearing tight clothes, not looking like a video ho for women. Men, not wearing your pants sagging, wearing clothes 2-3 times your size, no earrings. Dress decently. Is that hard to understand?

Drinking is a poor witness to unsaved folks in America. We witness to unsaved folks. If they think Christians shouldn't drink then what's the point of a Christian drinking. It's not a necessity of life. The unsaved think it's hypocritical for Christians to drink and tell them they shouldn't be drunk. 

We are to be witness first. Our personal wants and desires come last. Why risk losing a soul because we have the right to drink, wear body piercings and tats?


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## chellero (Jul 3, 2008)

Some Bible verses for those who still think that drinking is somehow prohibited in the Bible.  If you still think that wine was just grape juice then please read the bolded.  


Deut 14:26 implies that it is a _good_ thing to drink wine and strong drink to the Lord: “And you may spend the money for whatever your heart desires, for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household” (NASB). 

Psalm 4:7 compares joy in the Lord to the abundance of wine; Psalm 104:14-15 credits God as the creator of wine that “makes a man’s heart glad” (cf. also Hos 2:8); honoring the Lord with one’s wealth is rewarded with the blessings of abundant stores of wine (Prov 3:10); love is compared to wine repeatedly in the Song of Songs, as though good wine were similarly sweet (1:2, 4; 4:10; 7:9). 

*The Lord prepares a banquet with “well-aged wines... and fine, well-aged wines” for his people (Isa 25:6) [obviously this cannot be grape juice, for aging does nothing but ferment it!].*


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## chellero (Jul 3, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> Christian uniform? Not showing your boobs, not wearing tight clothes, not looking like a video ho for women. Men, not wearing your pants sagging, wearing clothes 2-3 times your size, no earrings. Dress decently. Is that hard to understand?
> 
> Drinking is a poor witness to unsaved folks in America. We witness to unsaved folks. If they think Christians shouldn't drink then what's the point of a Christian drinking. It's not a necessity of life. The unsaved think it's hypocritical for Christians to drink and tell them they shouldn't be drunk.
> 
> We are to be witness first. Our personal wants and desires come last. Why risk losing a soul because we have the right to drink, wear body piercings and tats?



Jesus himself was criticized for drinking.  He didn't stop. Many people also expect Christians to be uptight, judgmental, buttholes who don't have or approve of fun or sex and are prudes even within marriage.  I don't think that I want to embody America's expectations of a Christian.


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## PaperClip (Jul 3, 2008)

chellero said:


> *Jesus himself was criticized for drinking*. He didn't stop. Many people also expect Christians to be uptight, judgmental, buttholes who don't have or approve of fun or sex and are prudes even within marriage. I don't think that I want to embody America's expectations of a Christian.


 
Scripture for that?


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## Ms.Honey (Jul 3, 2008)

chellero said:


> Jesus himself was criticized for drinking. He didn't stop. Many people also expect Christians to be uptight, judgmental, buttholes who don't have or approve of fun or sex and are prudes even within marriage. I don't think that I want to embody America's expectations of a Christian.


 
Then don't.


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## chellero (Jul 3, 2008)

chellero said:


> Wine was not the equivalent of having juice or water back then.  Wine was the equivalent of wine.  People had water and fruit juice too.  Jesus was criticized in the Bible for drinking.
> _
> Luke 7:33 __For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.' *34The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." *' 35But wisdom is proved right by all her children."
> 
> ...





FoxyScholar said:


> Scripture for that?



Here you go.


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## cheetarah1980 (Jul 3, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> Unsaved and ungodly. Why copy them?


No one is saying he's copying them.  You said that earrings were made popular by thugs. I was simply pointing out that earrings were made popular by a variety of different people across all walks of life, including Christians.  
And do you know the New Kids, personally.  How do you know that they aren't saved and aren't Godly?  I make no assumption about their walk because I do NOT know them.


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## cheetarah1980 (Jul 3, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> Christian uniform? Not showing your boobs, not wearing tight clothes, not looking like a video ho for women. Men, not wearing your pants sagging, wearing clothes 2-3 times your size, no earrings. Dress decently. Is that hard to understand?
> 
> Drinking is a poor witness to unsaved folks in America. We witness to unsaved folks. If they think Christians shouldn't drink then what's the point of a Christian drinking. It's not a necessity of life. The unsaved think it's hypocritical for Christians to drink and tell them they shouldn't be drunk.
> 
> We are to be witness first. Our personal wants and desires come last. Why risk losing a soul because we have the right to drink, wear body piercings and tats?


Actually, tats are prohibted in scripture.  And NOT all unsaved folks think that Christians shouldn't drink at all.  Do you live your life to please ALL people.  Last time I checked you can please all of the people some of the time, and you can please some of the people all the time, but you can NEVER please all the people all the time.  The unsaved look at a drunk Christian as a hypocrite.  They look at a Christian who has a drink once in a while as a normal person.  Take a poll of unsaved people. You'd be surprised by what they really expect.


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## Ms.Honey (Jul 3, 2008)

cheetarah1980 said:


> No one is saying he's copying them. You said that earrings were made popular by thugs. I was simply pointing out that earrings were made popular by a variety of different people across all walks of life, including Christians.
> And do you know the New Kids, personally. How do you know that they aren't saved and aren't Godly? I make no assumption about their walk because I do NOT know them.


 

What about their music would you consider it Christ-like. I don't need to know anyone personally to know they don't know Him. Your walk speaks for you. 

It was made popular by secular artists. That is why most men wear them, that's what it's associated with. Now if they want to wear them fine. If it's against His will He will eventually make it known. Some will continue to do as they please, whatever.


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## cheetarah1980 (Jul 3, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> What about their music would you consider it Christ-like. I don't need to know anyone personally to know they don't know Him. Your walk speaks for you.
> 
> It was made popular by secular artists. That is why most men wear them, that's what it's associated with. Now if they want to wear them fine. If it's against His will He will eventually make it known. Some will continue to do as they please, whatever.


Not all things secular are evil or bad.  God made the world and said it was good!  Not everything that doesn't directly say Jesus is sinful! New Kids on the Block sang "Please Don't Go Girl," a song about their girlfriend breaking up with them and begging her to stay.  They sang "Step by Step," a song about the steps they were going to take to make a certain girl like them.  They sang "The Right Stuff," a song about how much they like their new girlfriends.  Universal HUMAN themes that are NOT exclusive to Christians or unbelievers.  Would you say that Stevie Wonder's "Ribbon in the Sky" is an evil song just because it's sung by a secular artist.  Am I to assume  the new movie Wall-E is not fit for Christian viewing because it's secular and not all about Jesus?


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## Ms.Honey (Jul 3, 2008)

cheetarah1980 said:


> Actually, tats are prohibted in scripture. And NOT all unsaved folks think that Christians shouldn't drink at all. Do you live your life to please ALL people. Last time I checked you can please all of the people some of the time, and you can please some of the people all the time, but you can NEVER please all the people all the time. The unsaved look at a drunk Christian as a hypocrite. They look at a Christian who has a drink once in a while as a normal person. Take a poll of unsaved people. You'd be surprised by what they really expect.


 
Whatever. People drink because they want to along with a whole lot of other things that are poor witnesses. It is common knowledge that it's a poor witness for Christians to drink, it ain't gonna ever change. I don't have a problem with Christians in other countries drinking. Here in America it's a poor witness so I don't drink. I rather be a witness and continue to win souls to Christ. It's not something that I trip off of. God told me not to drink for that reason.

My suggestion is for folks to pray and ask the Lord if it's ok for them to drink. This seems to be something that's feared in this forum.


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## Ms.Honey (Jul 3, 2008)

cheetarah1980 said:


> Not all things secular are evil or bad. God made the world and said it was good! Not everything that doesn't directly say Jesus is sinful! New Kids on the Block sang "Please Don't Go Girl," a song about their girlfriend breaking up with them and begging her to stay. They sang "Step by Step," a song about the steps they were going to take to make a certain girl like them. They sang "The Right Stuff," a song about how much they like their new girlfriends. Universal HUMAN themes that are NOT exclusive to Christians or unbelievers. Would you say that Stevie Wonder's "Ribbon in the Sky" is an evil song just because it's sung by a secular artist. Am I to assume the new movie Wall-E is not fit for Christian viewing because it's secular and not all about Jesus?


 
Are you serious?


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## cheetarah1980 (Jul 3, 2008)

I'm done. We're just going to agree to disagree.  God is teaching me everyday that the true meaning of submission is giving up the right to be right.  No amount of back and forth is going to convince the other and the only thing it's doing right now is annoying me.  I don't need or want to have any ill feelings toward sisters in Christ.  So I bow out.


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## Ms.Honey (Jul 3, 2008)

It's so easy to ask God directly. If He say to do it then do it if He says don't then don't. Simple.


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## lovedone_24 (Jul 3, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> People don't go to church because they don't want to bottom line. Paul said I am all things to all people. If eating meat is a stumbling block then don't eat meat. It's not an add-on it's scriptural.


It's not that simple. Just as people do not seek education (even when it is provided them) because of outside factors, such as the same with spiritual health. There is a reason why even the prostetute felt comfortable at the feet of Jesus yet the same sentiment cannot be felt from mere church memebers.


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## PaperClip (Jul 3, 2008)

chellero said:


> Here you go.


 
Ok, cool. Now let's consider this in context.

It was the PHARISEES who criticized Jesus. They criticized Jesus for A LOT of things. Why? Because of their adherence to the law.... Yes, the followed the law to the letter... with no HEART.

Jesus came to fulfill the law... Jesus brought His HEART to the law. In other words, His words aligned with His actions. He demonstrated the spirit of the law through His actions.

Notice a couple of verses before verse 34, where it talks about how Jesus performed miracles, healing people that were blind and lame. Interesting how the Pharisees didn't criticize that, but they focused on Jesus' eating and drinking...based on what an EARTHLY man did.... 

That's straight FOOLISHNESS! Then and now....

For the record, it is not a sin to consume alcohol. Scripture gives direction for consumption, though: 1) is to drink it when you are sick and 2) not to drink it in excess. That doesn't sound like it gives the ok to drink it RECREATIONALLY....

Ephesians 5:18: "18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, 20 giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another in the fear of God.

1 Timothy 5:23: 23 No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach’s sake and your frequent infirmities. 

I think it's kind of crazy how this thread about a (grown) male pastor in an earring has flipped to issues around the saints and alcohol consumption. But that is a trick of the enemy: to deceive and misrepresent and take off on a tangent....

The church tradition against ANY alcohol consumption has to do with seeming LACK OF CONTROL and DISCIPLINE....something that the world suffers from. We are all in this flesh and sometimes it is better to abstain altogether so that our "taste", if you will doesn't get tempted.

Ultimately, it is about our lives being a witness to others. And we must be careful about not misleading others and even weaker brothers and sisters, even. The Bible talks about blood being on the hands of those who mislead others.


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## Ms.Honey (Jul 3, 2008)

lovedone_24 said:


> It's not that simple. Just as people do not seek education (even when it is provided them) because of outside factors, such as the same with spiritual health. There is a reason why even the prostetute felt comfortable at the feet of Jesus yet the same sentiment cannot be felt from mere church memebers.


 
If you want to go to church you go to church. No one can stop me from going. Everybody at my church aren't loving, friendly people. I just avoid them as much as possible and keep moving.  While I agree that some folks have reason for not going, forbidding alcohol aside for medicinal reasons is not a valid one.


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## lovedone_24 (Jul 3, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> If you want to go to church you go to church. No one can stop me from going. Everybody at my church aren't loving, friendly people. I just avoid them as much as possible and keep moving. While I agree that some folks have reason for not going, forbidding alcohol aside for medicinal reasons is not a valid one.


That's fair. The alcohol issue is a dead one to me because like the poster above me said, we have to agree to disagree. On judgement day everyone has to answer for themselves. Let me clarify and say I was referring to these "addition commandments" in general of what is/is not appropriate based on society at this time and _not _the Word per se. I have seen young ministers dressed as goths, excited about Christ. And yes they had piercings, tattoos. When people are trying to get their lives right, nobody needs to hear a speech about the frivolous, which is why I brought up the fact that it is a turnoff. Church has a always been full of too many who are far too concerned with the length of a skirt than what the needs of the people are. But I do agree, sometimes you have to keep it moving...


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## Ms.Honey (Jul 3, 2008)

lovedone_24 said:


> That's fair. The alcohol issue is a dead one to me because like the poster above me said, we have to agree to disagree. On judgement day everyone has to answer for themselves. Let me clarify and say I was referring to these "addition commandments" in general of what is/is not appropriate based on society at this time and _not _the Word per se. I have seen young ministers dressed as goths, excited about Christ. And yes they had piercings, tattoos. When people are trying to get their lives right, nobody needs to hear a speech about the frivolous, which is why I brought up the fact that it is a turnoff. Church has a always been full of too many who are far too concerned with the length of a skirt than what the needs of the people are. But I do agree, sometimes you have to keep it moving...


 

Like I said before pray. If He says it's ok for Christians to drink, have body piercings and tattoes then fine if He says no then don't. We will stand before Him and some will have to answer the question, "Why did you refuse to ask me?".

People are always going to find a reason to be turned off by church. We can't reach everyone, everyone doesn't want to be reached. Those are excuses to not attend. If folks don't believe that God cares about skirt length don't attend a church that does if He didn't tell you too. To me that's very uncomplicated.

Asking God what He wants us to do would save a lot of questions from being posted to this forum and a lot of e-debates from happening. Prayer is simple and quick and we can be assured that He will tell us the Truth if we REALLY want to know it. He's always right and knows all things. We have differing opinions. Why ask here?


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## Bubblingbrownshuga (Jul 3, 2008)

It's not becoming of ANY man, IMHO, and yes, it would distract my attention.


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## chellero (Jul 3, 2008)

FoxyScholar said:


> Ok, cool. Now let's consider this in context.
> 
> It was the PHARISEES who criticized Jesus. They criticized Jesus for A LOT of things. Why? Because of their adherence to the law.... Yes, the followed the law to the letter... with no HEART.
> 
> ...


 

You make some very good points.  Someone mentioned earlier that drinking in front of an alcoholic was not a good idea, and I agree that there's a time and place for everything.  I'm not sure what you mean by recreational drinking, but according to the scriptures drinking is fine, drunkeness is not.  If that's made clear then you aren't misleading anyone.  In fact it is misleading to suggest that drinking alcohol is wrong as the Bible certainly doesn't say that. 

Anyway, this will be my last post on the subject in this thread.  I think that everyone has made their points and that we just disagree.  I agree with Ms.Honey in that asking God is probably the best course of action.  Of course he's already answered the question  for Christians in general in the Bible, but God may want some individuals to give up alcohol even if Christians as a whole aren't required to give it up.  I think that the problem comes in when people take their own personal preferences and attempt to make them universal Christian principles.  I've had to learn in my own walk that just because I find something offensive or inappropriate doesn't mean that it's wrong for everyone unless the Bible supports my position. That goes for alcohol, earrings and everything else.


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## Ms.Honey (Jul 4, 2008)

This is one way to tell a Christian from a saved only person. We make sacrifices. There are many things that are lawful for us but not expedient(1 Cor.10:19-33). It is not expedient for the sake of the gospel for American Christians to drink, get tattoes, or wear body piercings among other things worldly people do. So American Christians don't. Is it lawful and permitted in the bible for us to drink. Yes. Is it a good witness? No, not in America. 

Bottom Line. American Christians, regardless of what we're allowed, do not drink. Our men do not wear earrings, neither male or female get tatted up, we don't wear body piercings. Saved only people whine about how unfair stuff is because it says we can/doesn't say we can't in the bible. It doesn't say we can't smoke weed either and yes I've heard the argument that we can because the bible doesn't prohibit it and they used hemp in the bible.

The Lord says that we are to be distinctly different, a peculiar people. Saved only people can't be distinguished from the unsaved because they still drink, get tats, and wear piercings among other lawful, unexpedient things. 

Hurt people want change, they want something different. When the Lord saved me He CHANGED my life. I had to make changes so He could use me. I didn't wanted to be tempted back into a world that was killing me. I didn't want to be associated with people who still lived that lifestyle.

 Ask the Lord why you can't win souls to Christ after all of these years of being saved. It's your witness, you're compromising and you're hypocrites. Christians are living sacrifices. Saved only folks hang on to as much of the world as they can. He can only use some of you to show others who to avoid and what not to be.


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## Supergirl (Jul 4, 2008)

Wow--I haven't ever heard it put quite that way even though I remember my "saved only" days. I used to be a member of the lawful, but not expedient club. Shoot, I was even a member of the unlawful club. And at both of those periods in my life, the Christians surrounding me that I looked up to the most, the ones I admired, the ones I wanted to strive to be like were not "saved only." There was something so very different about these ladies. 

Thinking about these very special women brings lots of emotion to my heart right now. They were not "saved only." And if they had been, they would not have had the same kind of influence on me that they did. That influence made me want to be better. It's years later and I still thank God for these witnesses in my life. For I certainly would not have been moved to change if they were drinkers, tatted, and such. They had beautiful hearts and they made sure they represented Him beautifully on the outside also.


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## chellero (Jul 4, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> This is one way to tell a Christian from a saved only person. We make sacrifices. There are many things that are lawful for us but not expedient(1 Cor.10:19-33). It is not expedient for the sake of the gospel for American Christians to drink, get tattoes, or wear body piercings among other things worldly people do. So American Christians don't. Is it lawful and permitted in the bible for us to drink. Yes. Is it a good witness? No, not in America.  _I completely disagree with this.  Many American Christians consume alcohol and are good witnesses.  Of course who you are witnessing to matters here.
> _
> Bottom Line. American Christians, regardless of what we're allowed, do not drink. _Not true at all.  Many American Christians drink._  Our men do not wear earrings, neither male or female get tatted up, we don't wear body piercings. Saved only people whine about how unfair stuff is because it says we can/doesn't say we can't in the bible. _I missed the whining in this thread. _ It doesn't say we can't smoke weed either and yes I've heard the argument that we can because the bible doesn't prohibit it and they used hemp in the bible._ It's completely different as weed is illegal and we are to follow the law so long as it does not contradict God's word.  I am unfamiliar with anyone smoking hemp in the Bible.  _
> 
> ...



My responses to your post in red above.  

I said that I wouldn't say anything else in this thread, but I was a little shocked at this post.  Are there any Bible passages that talk about the distinction between a Christian and saved person that you mention here?  If so please share.  I read the scriptures that you sited and I interpreted them to mean, again, that there is time and place for everything.  
If you are with someone and what are eating offends them then don't eat it in their presence. 

 I have a friend who thought that Christians shouldn't eat meat because of the torture that animals endure.  She believed that it wasn't compassionate and that it wasn't the way that God meant for us to treat the animals that we eat. I had salad when we were together but of course didn't give up meat entirely because I don't believe that Christians need to be vegetarians. I think that the anti-alcohol argument is similar.  If you are sitting by someone who will stumble because you are drinking alcohol or by someone who doesn't understand what the Bible says about alcohol then maybe you should abstain.  But in front of people who have no issue with drinking, in the privacy of your own home,or with a group of people who know what the Bible says about alcohol and agree with God's word, then drinking is harmless.


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## Ms.Honey (Jul 4, 2008)

chellero said:


> My responses to your post in red above.
> 
> I said that I wouldn't say anything else in this thread, but I was a little shocked at this post. Are there any Bible passages that talk about the distinction between a Christian and saved person that you mention here? If so please share. I read the scriptures that you sited and I interpreted them to mean, again, that there is time and place for everything.
> If you are with someone and what are eating offends them then don't eat it in their presence.
> ...


 

As I said before Christians make sacrifices and saved only folks hold on to as much of the world as they can. It is a poor witness for American Christians to drink. Saved only folks don't want to make the sacrifice to win souls to Christ.

How do you know whether a person has a drinking problem? Do you say I like to drink but I need to know if you're an alcoholic first? Do you ask everyone who comes into a restaraunt or dinner party, " Can I see the hands of any who may be alcoholics before I can drink my wine."?

You can tell Christians from saved only folks by their actions and what we're willing to sacrifice for the Words sake.

I'm not trying to persuade you not to drink I actually don't care what you do.


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## Ms.Honey (Jul 4, 2008)

Supergirl said:


> Wow--I haven't ever heard it put quite that way even though I remember my "saved only" days. I used to be a member of the lawful, but not expedient club. Shoot, I was even a member of the unlawful club. And at both of those periods in my life, the Christians surrounding me that I looked up to the most, the ones I admired, the ones I wanted to strive to be like were not "saved only." There was something so very different about these ladies.
> 
> Thinking about these very special women brings lots of emotion to my heart right now. They were not "saved only." And if they had been, they would not have had the same kind of influence on me that they did. That influence made me want to be better. It's years later and I still thank God for these witnesses in my life. For I certainly would not have been moved to change if they were drinkers, tatted, and such. They had beautiful hearts and they made sure they represented Him beautifully on the outside also.


 
Yep. The Lord said be ye not unequally yoked with unbelievers, he didn't say the unsaved. I've had friends who never changed past the alter confession. They started off great but went back to their old ways. They struggle in their lives in areas the could have had victory but were unwilling to make the sacrifices necessary to live a fulfilled life.

They couldn't witness to me because they were doing the same things I was so I didn't really want to hear it. That's what saved only folks don't get. Unsaved look at how we live our lives first and what we say second. The general consensus in America is that Protestants don't drink. If we do drink it's a poor witness and not expedient to the gospel.


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## chellero (Jul 4, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> As I said before Christians make sacrifices and saved only folks hold on to as much of the world as they can. It is a poor witness for American Christians to drink. Saved only folks don't want to make the sacrifice to win souls to Christ.
> 
> * How do you know whether a person has a drinking problem? Do you say I like to drink but I need to know if you're an alcoholic first?   *Do you ask everyone who comes into a restaraunt or dinner party, " Can I see the hands of any who may be alcoholics before I can drink my wine."?
> 
> ...



 Do you have some scriptural support for any of the things that you are saying or is this all based on your personal opinion?   A person consuming alcohol in no way means that they are unwilling to make sacrifices in order to win souls to Christ. erplexed I ask again if you have any scriptural basis for your comments about a "saved person" vs a Christian or for how you recognize a Christian.  Because a person can certainly drink alcohol and still display the fruits of the spirit.  Jesus himself drank despite being criticized for it.  Clearly drinking wine is not "holding on to the world." 

In response to the bolded, I drink most of my wine and eat most of meals at home or with my extended family and I am 100% sure that no one in my family has a drinking problem.  Is drinking alcohol still poor witness in this situation?

According to your logic you can't do anything without fear of offending someone and causing them to stumble.  I can't be 100% sure that when I put on perfume that someone somewhere won't be allergic, I can't be 100% sure that the person dining next to me isn't a sickened by the sight of meat and upset when I order a cheeseburger.  I can't be sure that the woman eating a salad at the next table isn't a diabetic or on a diet and that my dessert might cause her to stumble.  I can't be sure that I won't run into a Christian who is offended by my bare head and jeans when I am out walking my dog. I can't be sure that I am when I drive past someone walking down that street that that person isn't walking because they feel that driving ruins the environment and damages the world that God gave us to live in.  You can't be sure of *anything *not being offensive in this world, but out of all the things that could possible offend alcohol is strange place to draw the line. 

About the comment in red: I would think that as a Christian you would care about what other people did.  Especially if it made them "poor witnesses" or  if you felt that they misrepresented Jesus and Christianity.  The reason that I brought up drinking in the first place is not because drinking wine is so important to me, I could take it or leave it really, but because it bothers me when people try to take their opinions and personal preferences and make them universal Christian principals.  God told us what he wanted us to do and not to do in His word and He is clear  on where, when and how consuming alcohol is appropriate.  *Some other people being confused about what the Bible says in no way changes God's word or makes those who know His word and act accordingly poor witnesses.  MsHoney while I certainly respect your right to an opinion, I am much more concerned with God's opinion on drinking, and He has spoken on the issue.  *  I'm enjoying the discussion though, and I hope that you aren't offended.


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## chellero (Jul 4, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> Yep. The Lord said be ye not unequally yoked with unbelievers, he didn't say the unsaved. I've had friends who never changed past the alter confession. They started off great but went back to their old ways. They struggle in their lives in areas the could have had victory but were unwilling to make the sacrifices necessary to live a fulfilled life.
> 
> They couldn't witness to me because they were doing the same things I was so I didn't really want to hear it. That's what saved only folks don't get. Unsaved look at how we live our lives first and what we say second. *The general consensus in America is that Protestants don't drink. If we do drink it's a poor witness and not expedient to the gospel.*



Since when is general consensus correct according to God?  It was once general consensus in America that black people don't have souls are lesser human beings, and that slavery is OK.  Eventually people have to read the Word for themselves and really live accordingly.  

Anyway, I think that I see why we have differing opinions on alcohol.  I have never had a drinking problem and have been drunk once on accident. I suppose that if I had been a big drinker or club goer at some point in my life  then maybe I would have needed to give up drinking in order to change my life.  But I wasn't that far out there in that way and have never struggled with in that area.  Drunkenness, trashy clubs ect were never vices of mine even before I became a Christian.


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## Ms.Honey (Jul 4, 2008)

chellero said:


> Since when is general consensus correct according to God? It was once general consensus in America that black people don't have souls are lesser human beings, and that slavery is OK. Eventually people have to read the Word for themselves and really live accordingly.
> 
> Anyway, I think that I see why we have differing opinions on alcohol. I have never had a drinking problem and have been drunk once on accident. I suppose that if I had been a big drinker or club goer at some point in my life then maybe I would have needed to give up drinking in order to change my life. But I wasn't that far out there in that way and have never struggled with in that area. Drunkenness, trashy clubs ect were never vices of mine even before I became a Christian.


 

Enjoy your drink.

Does your church advocate drinking?


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## chellero (Jul 4, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> Enjoy your drink.
> 
> Does your church advocate drinking?



My church is silent on the subject.


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## Ms.Honey (Jul 4, 2008)

chellero said:


> My church is silent on the subject.


 

So there's nothing in your church's doctrine about drinking? My church's stance and I believe that most Protestant churches is that we only consume alcohol for medicinal reasons. What denomination are you? I'm non-denominational. We used to be AME Zion.

BTW You know I still love you *****, right?


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## chellero (Jul 4, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> So there's nothing in your church's doctrine about drinking? My church's stance and I believe that most Protestant churches is that we only consume alcohol for medicinal reasons. What denomination are you? I'm non-denominational. We used to be AME Zion.
> 
> BTW You know I still love you *****, right?



Aww I love you too.  Used to be a baptist church but is now non-denominational.


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## Ms.Honey (Jul 4, 2008)

double post


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## Ms.Honey (Jul 4, 2008)

chellero said:


> Aww I love you too. Used to be a baptist church but is now non-denominational.


 
BTW I was never an alcoholic or a barfly *****. Don't think I didn't catch that 

God told me not to drink because it was a poor witness for me to drink. This was before I attended any church, my church is my first church. I was saved and had read the entire bible before I joined. All my instruction came from the Lord directly in the beginning for four months before He told me to join. I had no other doctrine.

What does your church doctrine say about drinking? Do you have a copy? I'll have to find ours for the exact wording but like I said before, we only drink for medicinal purposes.


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## chellero (Jul 4, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> BTW *I was never an alcoholic or a barfly *****. Don't think I didn't catch that* _I really didn't mean it that way.  Even if you were there were things that I was that were just as bad so......_
> 
> God told me not to drink because it was a poor witness for me to drink. This was before I attended any church, my church is my first church. I was saved and had read the entire bible before I joined. All my instruction came from the Lord directly in the beginning for four months before He told me to join. I had no other doctrine.
> 
> What does your church doctrine say about drinking? Do you have a copy? I'll have to find ours for the exact wording but like I said before, we only drink for medicinal purposes.



I'll get a copy on Sunday.


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## Ramya (Jul 4, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> BTW I was never an alcoholic or a barfly *****. Don't think I didn't catch that
> 
> God told me not to drink because it was a poor witness for me to drink. This was before I attended any church, my church is my first church. I was saved and had read the entire bible before I joined. All my instruction came from the Lord directly in the beginning for four months before He told me to join. I had no other doctrine.
> 
> What does your church doctrine say about drinking? Do you have a copy? I'll have to find ours for the exact wording but like I said before, we only drink for medicinal purposes.


 
ITA with this post. I'm non-denominational and our church doctrine does not advocate drinking. However, before I joined my church I was convicted about drinking. I wasn't an alcoholic but I did drink and it weakened my ability to witness to others. God told me to stop drinking along with other activities that were not necessarily sinful...

This "debate" is a classic example of conviction vs. scripture. Although it is not directly stated " Thou shall never drink or Thou shall not wear an earring as a male" it is certainly a conviction for many a Christian. I really believe there would be less Christians in the club, drinking and doing things that weaken their ability to witness to others if they'd just listen to what God has to say on the topic. There'd be no need to start a "what does the bible say about this" conversation.


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## Ms.Honey (Jul 5, 2008)

amerikan said:


> ITA with this post. I'm non-denominational and our church doctrine does not advocate drinking. However, before I joined my church I was convicted about drinking. I wasn't an alcoholic but I did drink and it weakened my ability to witness to others. God told me to stop drinking along with other activities that were not necessarily sinful...
> 
> This "debate" is a classic example of conviction vs. scripture. Although it is not directly stated " Thou shall never drink or Thou shall not wear an earring as a male" it is certainly a conviction for many a Christian. I really believe there would be less Christians in the club, drinking and doing things that weaken their ability to witness to others if they'd just listen to what God has to say on the topic. There'd be no need to start a "what does the bible say about this" conversation.


 

Yeah, it would cut back a lot of posts. Prayer is the quickest, easiest way to find out what God says and how he wants us to live as Christians. For some reason, not op, people are really opposed to just letting the Lord settle these debates that should never occur in the first place. You say pray and ask Jesus and people act like you never spoke the words and keep trying to prove their point. I hate to be embarrased so I always pray whether I believe I'm right or have already covered it in church or not

I had to sacrifice a lot of lawful but not expedient things in my life also. Once an unsaved person gives you the, "And you're supposed to be a Christian" speech, you go throught the check list real quick. It's either that or end up punching folks out and telling Jesus they fell That is a BIG witness killer


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## Ms.Honey (Jul 5, 2008)

Supergirl said:


> Wow--I haven't ever heard it put quite that way even though I remember my "saved only" days. I used to be a member of the lawful, but not expedient club. Shoot, I was even a member of the unlawful club. And at both of those periods in my life, the Christians surrounding me that I looked up to the most, the ones I admired, the ones I wanted to strive to be like were not "saved only." There was something so very different about these ladies.
> 
> Thinking about these very special women brings lots of emotion to my heart right now. They were not "saved only." And if they had been, they would not have had the same kind of influence on me that they did. That influence made me want to be better. It's years later and I still thank God for these witnesses in my life. For I certainly would not have been moved to change if they were drinkers, tatted, and such. They had beautiful hearts and they made sure they represented Him beautifully on the outside also.


 
The tighter your walk the more people see Jesus in you. It makes folks want to be a Christian. They start watching ever thing you do to see if it's really possible for them to live a godly life. Jesus sacrificed His life for us and all He asks is for is to sacrifice our lifestyles for others. He says for us to pick up our own crosses and follow Him. If we fail to sacrifice those who mark us loose hope for themselves and that's truly heartbreaking.

 I went through a lot of supernatural things in the beginning of my walk and I and no one else can blame them on drinking or any other mind/mood altering drugs. Yep alcohol is a drug just a legal one. If I was drinking I  sure would have become an alcoholic after the things I experienced God needed me to go through them stone cold sober


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## Hair4Care (Aug 25, 2008)

well, image is absolutely important in tis day and age, so I will say that a bishop should set a clear godly example for his congregation, especially the kids in his church.

In some countries though they see wearing of jeans to be too worldy for a christian...but I will stand with where the apostle paul stands, that all things may be lawful but not all things are lawful for him.


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## SugarBaby (Aug 26, 2008)

kayte said:


> As long as it's real,then hope it's either properly insured or he has a back-up earring. l aways lose those minute things..I almost gave up wearing earrings.
> 
> guess my point is...a diamond stud? as opposed to say ..pearl or plastic? nice choice imho
> wearing it on the ear (_sporting as in flaunting _is an opinion only)
> ...





I soooo agree. When are we going to stop the analysis part of what is worthy of Christianity and just listen to the "loving God part and sharing the good news."

Until we accept ourselves and not to pre-package Christianity styles 
in our favorite wrapper, How we gonna accept the people that have all the real "issues of life"?


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## Ivy_Butter (Aug 26, 2008)

Didn't read the whole thread. Don't know if this was posted or not"

Exodus 32:2(KJV) - And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.

Men and women both wore earrings in biblical times.  Is it appropriate now? I don't know. I'm not necessarily for or against it, but I guess if it causes people questioning his 'christness' then many he should just do without.


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## PaperClip (Aug 26, 2008)

Ivy_Butter said:


> Didn't read the whole thread. Don't know if this was posted or not"
> 
> Exodus 32:2(KJV) - And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.
> 
> Men and women both wore earrings in biblical times. Is it appropriate now? I don't know. I'm not necessarily for or against it, but I guess if it causes people questioning his 'christness' then many he should just do without.


 
I believe that they Hebrews ears were pierced by the Egyptians to denote their slave status...to distinguish Hebrews from the Egyptians.

Exodus 21:1 (NLV) Now these are the Laws which you are to give them. 2If you buy a Hebrew servant, he will work for six years. In the seventh year he will go free, paying nothing. 3If he comes alone, he will leave by himself. If he is married, then his wife will leave with him. 4If his owner gives him a wife and she gives birth to his sons or daughters, the wife and her children will belong to her owner, and he will leave by himself. 5But if the servant says, 'I love my owner, my wife and my children; I do not care to go free,' 6then his owner will bring him to the judges. And he will bring him to the door or the side of the door. *There his owner will make a hole in his ear with a sharp object. And he will serve him all his life.*

I note this as what I have picked up over the years. I am not clear if this is accurate in terms of deeper meaning. I don't know if it matters who does the piercing as if this meaning applies. Does this not apply if the person willingly pierces his ear? Does this apply to men only?


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## Precious_1 (Aug 26, 2008)

Supergirl said:


> I was waiting on someone to say that, and I say hey if you can turn water into wine then you get to drink it!
> 
> *Seriously though, it's my understanding that wine during that time was different in that it was more or less fermented grapes/grape juice and not processed with additives and such like wine is today to increase the buzz factor. I also understand that water back then was quite contaminated. Drinking water was the same water that the donkey bathed in.  So wine was THE beverage of choice back then*.


 
this is basically the same thing our pastor shared with us recently, he said his "sipping saints" as he called them would point out that jesus drank wine, and I used to say that myself, until i heard him teach this sermon. he really broke it down.  As far as the earring, I dont think it would bother me that much, now if i saw my pastor at the bar having a beer, i would definetely be disappointed and would not be able to take in what he has to say anymore


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## SugarBaby (Aug 26, 2008)

Ivy_Butter said:


> Didn't read the whole thread. Don't know if this was posted or not"
> 
> Exodus 32:2(KJV) - And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.
> 
> Men and women both wore earrings in biblical times.  Is it appropriate now? I don't know. I'm not necessarily for or against it, but I guess if it causes people questioning his 'christness' then many he should just do without.



Like you, I can't say I see the inapproriatness...

Interestingly, I find that when you give "people" the power to determine your 'Christness' it never seems to measure up to their standards.

I think thats a dangerous slope and I don't give anyone the power to determine that.


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## Zeal (Aug 26, 2008)

FoxyScholar said:


> I think I know who it is.... and if it is who I think it is, an earring is the LEAST of what we should be concerned about....
> 
> ETA: I came upon new information that changes my initial speculation....
> 
> ...


 

You betta preach/teach.  I am so late on this post.  I guess by now everyone knows who it is.  There was a lot of fuss about this subject. If it was not an issue the earring would not have dissappeared from the photo.

Any whooo.  Why is it that when someone makes a comment or you don't agree with them you are said to be judging. 

 i.e.  Homesexuality is wrong.  Oh.. you are judgemental.  Why are you getting mad at me when I am not even the one who said it???  I am agreeing with the one who said it.

Then people always misuse mat 7:1.    They just take that verse and leave  it there what about the following verses.

The bible does not say not to judge.  It basically says if you decide to judge.  You better have yur stuff in order as you may be judged by the same manner.


*1DO NOT judge and criticize and condemn others, so that you may not be judged and criticized and condemned yourselves. *

*    2For just as you judge and criticize and condemn others, you will be judged and criticized and condemned, and in accordance with the measure you [use to] deal out to others, it will be dealt out again to you. *
*    3Why do you [a]stare from without at the [b]very small particle that is in your brother's eye but do not become aware of and consider the beam [c]of timber that is in your own eye? **    4Or how can you say to your brother, Let me get the tiny particle out of your eye, when there is the beam [d]of timber in your own eye?*


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## PaperClip (Aug 26, 2008)

Zeal said:


> You betta preach/teach. I am so late on this post. I guess by now everyone knows who it is. There was a lot of fuss about this subject. *If it was not an issue the earring would not have dissappeared from the photo.*


 
Ding! Ding! Ding! You win the prize!!!!!

I said upthread that just like with President Nixon and Watergate, it wasn't the crime, it was the COVER-UP!!!!

And that's the HUGE POINT in terms of the issue of gauging what Christianity is or is not.

So if this pastor (or anyone) was clear about what is or is not Christian, then, IMHO, there would be no reason to EDIT OUT said earring. If you're gonna wear it, wear it PROUDLY. Don't compromise because it supposedly doesn't look Christian...or maybe it was edited out because it's not the Christian thing to do? Hmmmm....


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## cocoberry10 (Aug 26, 2008)

Supergirl said:


> *He was one of the last people I'd expect to see "conforming to the world."* It just doesn't sit well with me. After salvation, sanctification should eventually follow. *Maybe I shouldn't assume that anyone is sanctified (set apart), but as long as he's been in ministry, I did assume it, and I am utterly surprised.*
> 
> And this isn't really relevant, but this guy is close to 60 if he isn't already there, which also makes me go  to the whole earring thing.


 
To the bolded: Supergirl, one thing I've learned in my "walk" is not to ASS-UME (forgive the hyphen, but you get why I placed it there) anything about anyone.

*THE ONLY ONE WHO KNOWS MY HEART AND THE HEARTS OF HIS CHILDREN UNCONDITIONALLY AND UNABASHEDLY IS THE LORD, THE POTTER, THE MANUFACTURER, THE OMNIPOTENT ONE!*

I've learned not to look at every action and worry, b/c some things are just human nature. However, if this pastor is on his way to sin (or already deeply there), I trust the the Lord will work with Him or force Him to deal with the consequences in HIS way, not mine


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## SugarBaby (Aug 27, 2008)

Zeal said:


> You betta preach/teach.  I am so late on this post.  I guess by now everyone knows who it is.  There was a lot of fuss about this subject. If it was not an issue the earring would not have dissappeared from the photo.
> 
> Any whooo.  Why is it that when someone makes a comment or you don't agree with them you are said to be judging.
> 
> ...


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## gradygirl (Aug 31, 2008)

I am in no position to jugde Bishop Jakes. I remember that some of his sermons have gotten me through some pretty hard times and helped to lift my spirit and gave me the strength and insight I needed to go on. As Shimmie mentioned earlier I do sense some things going on in the spriritual realm and him wearing an earring does not set well with me but because his words have helped me so many times the least I can do is pray for him and ask God to bless and keep him. It is open season for the people of God and devil is aiming for the head first so we have to keep the Bishop and other spiritual leaders covered in prayer in the hopes that our prayers will help them the way some of their sermons and prayers have helped some of us along the way.
Be blessed


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