# Giving of the Tithe - Scripture References



## Nice & Wavy (Jan 26, 2008)

q Gen 14:19 (Abraham’s give of 10%)
q Gen 28:20-22 (Jacob decision to give 10% to God)
q Exod 35:4-29 (Moses and the people’s gifts to build the tabernacle)
q Lev 27:30 (Tithe of everything is the Lord’s)
q Lev 27:32 (Every tenth animal is the Lord’s)
q Num 18:21 (Tithes support ministers of God)
q Deut 12:5-7 (Tithes, special gifts, freewill offerings)
q Deut 14:22-29 (Set aside a tenth to learn to revere God)
q 2 Chr 31:2-12 (Hezekiah generosity & giving instructions)
q Neh 10:35-37 (Nehemiah’s giving instructions)
q Neh 12:43-47 (Faithful giving to God’s ministers)
q Neh 13:11-13 (Nehemiah’s rebuke & the results)
q Mal 3:7-12 (Holding back tithes & offerings is stealing from God)
q Matt 23:23 (Jesus’ affirmation of tithing)
q Luke 11:42 (Jesus’ affirmation of tithing)
q I Kings 17:8-16 (Elijah and the starving widow)
q Deut 8:18 (God gives people ability to produce wealth)
q Prov 3:9-10 (Honor the Lord with your wealth & firstfruits)
q Exod 36:3-6 (Moses restrains people from bringing offerings)
q Mal 1:6-14 (Malachi’s rebuke for bringing bad offerings)
q Hag 1:4-11 (Haggai’s giving challenge)
q 1 Chr 29:2-9 (David’s generous gift  & giving challenge)
q 1 Chr 29:11-17 (Everything we have and gives comes from God)
q Luke 6:38 (Give and God will see others give to you)
q 2 Cor 8:2-21 (Rich generosity in the midst of extreme poverty)
q 2 Cor 9:5-15 (God loves a cheerful giver)
q Deut 28:12-13, 43-45 (Blessings & curses for obedience)
q Ps 50:9-12 (God owns everything)
q Prov 11:24-25 (Generosity is the pathway for more)
q Prov 18:9 (Slackness in giving is the same as destroying things)
q Prov 22:9 (Generous man will be blessed)
q Prov 28:22 (Stingy man is eager to get rich, but gets poverty)
q Prov 28:27 (Give and have enough, withhold and be cursed)
q Matt 6:25-34 (Don’t worry, but seek first the kingdom of God)
q Mark 12:41-44 (Rich people giving and the widow’s mite)
q Deut 16:10 (Give in proportion to the blessings the Lord has given you)
q Deut 16:16 (No man should appear before the Lord empty-handed)
q Deut 16:17 (Each person should give in proportion to the way God has blessed them)
q 1 Cor 16:2 (On the first day of each week, give according to God’s blessing)
q 1 Tim 6:6-11 (Cautions about the materialism and the love of money)
q 1 Tim 6:17-19 (Instructions to be generous and willing to share)
q 1 Sam 30:24 (Those who stay with the supplies share with those on the front lines)
q Matt 6:19-21 (Do not store up for yourselves treasure on earth – heart & treasure linked)
q Heb 6:10 (God is not unfair, He will not forget the help you gave)
q Isa 32:8 (Noble man makes noble plans)
q Acts 2:44-45 (Believers had everything in common)
q Acts 4:34-37 (No needy persons.  Sale of lands and houses.)
q Rom 12:13 (Share with God's people who are in need)
q Heb 13:16 (Don’t forget to do good and share with others)
q I Jn 3:17 (Do you see brothers in need – help them)
q Luke 18:22-25 (Rich man turns away from Jesus)
q Gal 6:6 (Support financially those who teach you the Word of God)
q Matt 25:35-40 (Helping the least of the brethren is helping Jesus)
q Acts 20:35 (It is more blessed to given than to receive)
​Since there are some who are questioning tithers and because I won't get into this type of discussion over in OT, but in the CF only, then I thought its fitting to begin this over here.

The one thing I'm going to stress is this:  For all who choose not to give their tithes for whatever YOUR reason is, doesn't mean that those who do are wrong.  

I know that give above and beyond my 10%....you would be amazed.  There are so many others that do as well.  I love to give and will continue as long as I have breath in me.

If this was something that the Lord didn't want us to do, why am I so blessed?  Why does He continue to pour out His blessings in my life and so many others that I know of?  Why?  Well, I can say this....there must be something to it, or it would not happen.

Anyhoo....for those who want to understand it more and see what the Word has to say about it, be blessed with it.  ​


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## Nice & Wavy (Jan 26, 2008)

Malachi 1:14
_“Cursed is that man who promises a fine ram from his flock and_
_substitutes a sick one to sacrifice to God. For I am a Great King," says_
_the Lord Almighty, "and my name is to be mightily revered among the_
people of the world."

I Cronicles 29: 13-14
_(David prayed to God) “God, we give you thanks, and praise your glorious name.  "But who am I, and who are my people, that we should be able to give as generously as this? *Everything comes from you, and we have given you only what comes from your hand.”*_


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## alexstin (Jan 26, 2008)

Nice & Wavy said:


> q Gen 14:19 (Abraham’s give of 10%)
> q Gen 28:20-22 (Jacob decision to give 10% to God)
> q Exod 35:4-29 (Moses and the people’s gifts to build the tabernacle)
> q Lev 27:30 (Tithe of everything is the Lord’s)
> ...




Well you did a lot of work! Thanks!


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## intellect_sensual (Jan 26, 2008)

I have no problem with tithing, alot of the verses that are listed has to do with giving, not just tithing. That is what I believe in and subscribe to. I don't tithe and I am blessed, blessed I tell ya! So blessing doesn't fall only upon the tither. Actually being blessed and tithing are equally exclusive, and being blessed can happen without tithing. Like I said in the other thread and I will say here. This is one of the frivolous arguments that tear Christians apart. Tithing doesn't make you blessed or helps you get into heaven. Leviticus, and Deutronemy listed the things that will cause you to be blessed, and the things that cause you to be cursed, tithing wasn't one of them. As long as you don't believe that tithing makes you bettre than a nontither or will get you into heaven then you are fine with me.


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## intellect_sensual (Jan 26, 2008)

Nice & Wavy said:


> q Since there are some who are questioning tithers and because I won't get into this type of discussion over in OT, but in the CF only, then I thought its fitting to begin this over here.
> 
> The one thing I'm going to stress is this: For all who choose not to give their tithes for whatever YOUR reason is, doesn't mean that those who do are wrong. ​
> I know that give above and beyond my 10%....you would be amazed. There are so many others that do as well. I love to give and will continue as long as I have breath in me.​
> ...


 
To the bolded, might it be that God is just pleased with you? I think so. If you are following the 10 Commandments and living your life according, then I would attribute that to why you are blessed and not necessarily to tithing. I know many poeple that tithe faithfully, but lag behind on following his Commandmentsd, and their fruit show this. Tithing doesn't equal blessing, following God's commandments certainly do though.


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## PaperClip (Jan 26, 2008)

I humbly submit that TITHING, as a SPECIFIC FORM of giving, sets a person distinctly apart in the Lord's eyes. Abraham's act of tithing is mentioned in both the Old and New Testaments. There's already been plenty of discussion about the law versus the fulfillment of the law and what guidelines carried over and which did not and which SHOULD or should NOT be carried over into the new covenant. 

Here's the thing: ALL TYPES of giving is out of one's own free will: one's free will to OBEY the LORD. Tithing is, I feel, A COVENANT form of giving. And it is a form of giving that is ACCESSIBLE to us all.

*I believe Abraham's WILLINGNESS to tithe when there was no precedent set BEFORE HIM is a great witness of faith and it is reason why his great act of faith was highlighted in the book of Hebrews, the NEW TESTAMENT BOOK of FAITH. Abraham could have been like "Naww, that's alright...." But look at what Abraham did in RESPONSE to the bestowing of blessing upon him by Melchizedek. Abraham had to have faith to believe that Melchizedek was who Melchizedek said He was.... And who else was blessed by tithing? I believe Abraham's bloodline that came after him ALL TITHED unto THE LORD and that's how that blessing that Melchizedek placed upon Abraham has sustained throughout generations.*

Personal testimony: I believe that there are GENERATIONAL blessings upon my life because my grandparents tithed and my parents tithe and they trained me to tithe and I will train my children to tithe and the Lord is going to continue to favor us just like the Lord favored Abraham and his seed.

*Genesis 14 (The Message)*
17-20 After Abram returned from defeating Kedorlaomer and his allied kings, the king of Sodom came out to greet him in the Valley of Shaveh, the King's Valley. Melchizedek, king of Salem, brought out bread and wine—he was priest of The High God—and blessed him: 

   Blessed be Abram by The High God, 
      Creator of Heaven and Earth. 
   And blessed be The High God, 
      who handed your enemies over to you.

* Abram gave him a tenth of all the recovered plunder.* 


*Hebrews 7 (The Message)*

 4-7You realize just how great Melchizedek is when you see that Father Abraham gave him a tenth of the captured treasure. Priests descended from Levi are commanded by law to collect tithes from the people, even though they are all more or less equals, priests and people, having a common father in Abraham. *But this man, a complete outsider, collected tithes from Abraham and blessed him, the one to whom the promises had been given.* In acts of blessing, the lesser is blessed by the greater.
 8-10Or look at it this way: We pay our tithes to priests who die, *but Abraham paid tithes to a priest who, the Scripture says, "lives."* Ultimately you could even say that *since Levi descended from Abraham, who paid tithes to Melchizedek, when we pay tithes to the priestly tribe of Levi they end up with Melchizedek. *


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## Southernbella. (Jan 26, 2008)

Did you guys read the scriptures in context? Have you really studied this stuff, or are you just trying to prove your point? I'm not trying to be funny, but you're missing it. 

The tithe that Abraham gave wasn't a tithe. For one, he didn't give based on anything he earned. He gave from someone else's property. Second, it was a freewill offering of 10%. Which again proves what we have been saying. If we are not under the law to tithe, then we are free, like Abraham, to give 10, or 5 , or 35%, and God is pleased with it all.

Also, I have said before that I am not saying that you shouldn't tithe. What I am saying is that you aren't under the law to do so. If you want to, if God has spoken to you personally and told you to give 10%, then you are practicing New Testament giving, becuase that is what God has purposed in your heart.

That said, it doesn't make you more blessed or more special than people who do not "tithe". You aren't more blessed for giving 10% than soeone who gives 5 or 25%. You are blessed because God sees fit to bless you. Me and my family are blessed and favored beyond our wildest dreams, and we aren't "tithers" in the true sense of the word. 

God is awesome like that. He blesses those He wants to bless. Tithing never had to do with blessing anyway. It had to do with providing an inheritance for those who had nothing. It had nothing to do with faith either. 

The Malachi scriptures, again, if you read them in context, refer to God's displeasure with the priests. THEY were not bringing the tithes into the storehouse and doing with them what God commanded. They were robbing God by not providing for His people, the Levites. He told them that if they would obey Him in the law, He would bless them and not curse them. THEM, not us.

Again, if you want to give 10%, you have the freewill to do so. That is one of the reasons Jesus came...that we aren't in bondage to the law anymore, but free. But when you, and preachers, and whoever else try to create some spiritual hierarchy where "tithers" (Who aren't really tithing because if you read the tithe scriptures, it looks nothing like writing out a check every week) are better than givers.

Anyway, I'm going get my scriptures together.


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## Southernbella. (Jan 26, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> I humbly submit that TITHING, as a SPECIFIC FORM of giving, sets a person distinctly apart in the Lord's eyes. Abraham's act of tithing is mentioned in both the Old and New Testaments. There's already been plenty of discussion about the law versus the fulfillment of the law and what guidelines carried over and which did not and which SHOULD or should NOT be carried over into the new covenant.
> 
> Here's the thing: ALL TYPES of giving is out of one's own free will: one's free will to OBEY the LORD. Tithing is, I feel, A COVENANT form of giving. And it is a form of giving that is ACCESSIBLE to us all.
> 
> ...


 

Again, Abrahams "tithe" wasn't a true tithe the way God commanded it. It was a freewill offering. If anything, this supports the point that God has given us the choice to give what is purposed in our hearts. Abraham wasn't commanded to give 10%, but he decided to. Also, he didn't give from his own earnings, he gave from the spoils of war that belonged to the other king (I'll have to go back and reread). The spoils didn't belong to him, but before he returned those spoils to their rightful owner, he decided to give some to Melchizedek. So, not a good example of being under law or covenant to tithe.

There are no more Levite priests. They were the only ones able to legally collect a tithe. So again, if we are being technical, what you are doing isn't tithing, it's freewill giving of 10%.


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## Nice & Wavy (Jan 26, 2008)

alexstin said:


> Well you did a lot of work! Thanks!


 
Sure did...you are welcome!


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## Southernbella. (Jan 26, 2008)

Can someone who's read the tithe scriptures tell me why you aren't tithing according to the way God mandated? Because God was very specific about the way the tithe was to be collected, when,and who it went to. There was more than one tithe also, so how many tithes are you giving?


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## Nice & Wavy (Jan 26, 2008)

intellect_sensual said:


> I have no problem with tithing, alot of the verses that are listed has to do with giving, not just tithing. That is what I believe in and subscribe to. I don't tithe and I am blessed, blessed I tell ya! So blessing doesn't fall only upon the tither. Actually being blessed and tithing are equally exclusive, and being blessed can happen without tithing. Like I said in the other thread and I will say here. This is one of the frivolous arguments that tear Christians apart. Tithing doesn't make you blessed or helps you get into heaven. Leviticus, and Deutronemy listed the things that will cause you to be blessed, and the things that cause you to be cursed, tithing wasn't one of them. As long as you don't believe that tithing makes you bettre than a nontither or will get you into heaven then you are fine with me.


 
If you don't have a problem with tithing...then what's the problem?

The only frivolous arguments that I have been witnessing is between christians and its a shame.  How are people going to come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, when they see that there are people who are going to attack each other with their words because they don't agree?

Ok, we don't agree...that's ok.  It should not turn into arguments...it doesn't look good on us as believers.

Thanks for posting!


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## mzcris (Jan 26, 2008)

Hi Nice & Wavy

My husband and I are faithful tithers and givers!  Our lives are the better because we tithe.  Great thread lady!!


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## Southernbella. (Jan 26, 2008)

Nice & Wavy said:


> If you don't have a problem with tithing...then what's the problem?
> 
> The only frivolous arguments that I have been witnessing is between christians and its a shame. How are people going to come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, when they see that there are people who are going to attack each other with their words because they don't agree?
> 
> ...


 
I don't think anyone is arguing. I actually think this is a good dicussion. I actually think it's a shame when these dicussions come to a halt because people want to act like Christians shouldn't disagree in public.


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## Nice & Wavy (Jan 26, 2008)

lauren450 said:


> > Did you guys read the scriptures in context? *Have you really studied this stuff, or are you just trying to prove your point? I'm not trying to be funny, but you're missing it. *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Lauren, you have certainly insulted me and my position as a pastor and minister of the gospel by saying this.  I studied these scriptures and took alot of time on this and you are going to say this and think its ok for you to do so? Hmmmm....

This is not a battle of scriptures, Lauren.  Get your scriptures together if you like.

I have nothing more to say because I just don't....


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## PaperClip (Jan 26, 2008)

lauren450 said:


> Did you guys read the scriptures in context? Have you really studied this stuff, or are you just trying to prove your point? I'm not trying to be funny, but you're missing it.
> 
> The tithe that Abraham gave wasn't a tithe. For one, he didn't give based on anything he earned. He gave from someone else's property.
> 
> ...


 
I admit that I have been curious to get understanding of WHAT TO TITHE from: compensation from work/labor (e.g., earnings, salary) or spoils (e.g., bonus, extra, gift, etc.). Until such understanding is illuminated to me, I have to continue to do what I know and tithe from all.


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## Nice & Wavy (Jan 26, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> I humbly submit that TITHING, as a SPECIFIC FORM of giving, sets a person distinctly apart in the Lord's eyes. Abraham's act of tithing is mentioned in both the Old and New Testaments. There's already been plenty of discussion about the law versus the fulfillment of the law and what guidelines carried over and which did not and which SHOULD or should NOT be carried over into the new covenant.
> 
> Here's the thing: ALL TYPES of giving is out of one's own free will: one's free will to OBEY the LORD. Tithing is, I feel, A COVENANT form of giving. And it is a form of giving that is ACCESSIBLE to us all.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you, RR.  I appreciate your insight and the fact that you took your time to write this out.


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## Southernbella. (Jan 26, 2008)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Lauren, you have certainly insulted me and my position as a pastor and minister of the gospel by saying this. I studied these scriptures and took alot of time on this and you are going to say this and think its ok for you to do so? Hmmmm....
> 
> This is not a battle of scriptures, Lauren. Get your scriptures together if you like.
> 
> I have nothing more to say because I just don't....


 
It wasn't my intention to insult you. You have certainly insulted me with some of the things you have implied before, but I believe in forgiveness, so it's all good.

I welcome you to speak your mind though, as we are sisters in Christ and I wouldn't take it personal.


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## alexstin (Jan 26, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> I admit that I have been curious to get understanding of WHAT TO TITHE from: compensation from work/labor (e.g., earnings, salary) or spoils (e.g., bonus, extra, gift, etc.). Until such understanding is illuminated to me, I have to continue to do what I know and tithe from all.




This made me think of a question I have. We(my family) tithe off all monetary gifts. Let's say someone gets your child a giftcard and they'd rather have the cash because they would prefer to use that money elsewhere. You(the parent) give them the cash in exchange for the giftcard. Do you then have you child tithe off the cash they now have?


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## Nice & Wavy (Jan 26, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> I admit that I have been curious to get understanding of WHAT TO TITHE from: compensation from work/labor (e.g., earnings, salary) or spoils (e.g., bonus, extra, gift, etc.). Until such understanding is illuminated to me, I have to continue to do what I know and tithe from all.


 
I tithe from my earnings...my gross salary.  Anything above and beyond that is an offering and if you choose to give 10% from that, you are more than free to do so.

I just got a huge, I mean huge, finanical blessing and I know it came because I TITHE!  Now, its not earnings...but a generous gift for our work in the ministry from someone who has riches and wanted to bless us with it.  We received it and we are grateful.  We will give above and beyond because we understand what it means to give, just like you do, and yes...it will be more than 10%.


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## PaperClip (Jan 26, 2008)

alexstin said:


> This made me think of a question I have. We(my family) tithe off all monetary gifts. Let's say someone gets your child a giftcard and they'd rather have the cash because they would prefer to use that money elsewhere. You(the parent) give them the cash in exchange for the giftcard. Do you then have you child tithe off the cash they now have?


 
I suppose since there is cash, I would say yes.


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## Southernbella. (Jan 26, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> I admit that I have been curious to get understanding of WHAT TO TITHE from: compensation from work/labor (e.g., earnings, salary) or spoils (e.g., bonus, extra, gift, etc.). Until such understanding is illuminated to me, I have to continue to do what I know and tithe from all.


 
Abraham was going to give the spoils back. He never intended to keep them as his own because he didn't want to be enriched by another king.

*21 The king of Sodom said to Abram, "Give me the people and keep the goods for yourself." *
* 22 But Abram said to the king of Sodom, "I have raised my hand to the LORD, God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth, and have taken an oath 23 that I will accept nothing belonging to you, not even a thread or the thong of a sandal, so that you will never be able to say, 'I made Abram rich.' 24 I will accept nothing but what my men have eaten and the share that belongs to the men who went with me—to Aner, Eshcol and Mamre. Let them have their share."*

You are right that the Bible refers to it as a tithe, meaning 10%, but not the same thing as the law of the tithe.

And I think we agree more than disagree. I agree that freewill giving of 10% existed before the law, but again, it was freewill. It wasn't a true tithe. If you are choosing to give 10%, that is a tithe (tenth) but not tithing as God mandated it.

Do you agree that we are not mandated to tithe? And that freewill giving is what Christians are instructed to do per the New Testament? Because that is what I am saying. I have never had a problem with anyone giving 10% if that is what they want to do. I have a problem with the incorrect teaching that we are still under the law to tithe as God mandated it.


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## Southernbella. (Jan 26, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> I admit that I have been curious to get understanding of WHAT TO TITHE from: compensation from work/labor (e.g., earnings, salary) or spoils (e.g., bonus, extra, gift, etc.). Until such understanding is illuminated to me, I have to continue to do what I know and tithe from all.


 
It depends. Are you tithing based on the law? Or are you practicing freewill giving of 10%?


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## Nice & Wavy (Jan 26, 2008)

lauren450 said:


> It wasn't my intention to insult you. You have certainly insulted me with some of the things you have implied before, but I believe in forgiveness, so it's all good.
> 
> I welcome you to speak your mind though, as we are sisters in Christ and I wouldn't take it personal.


 
When I started this thread, I did not have you in mind, Lauren.  I didn't even think that you were going to come into this thread anyway, so how did I insult you?

What you said in this thread, was direct to me and I told you how I felt and instead of you apologizing with a heart of love, you come back with the above and say you believe in forgiveness....I'm sorry, its not all good when it goes down like that.

I know we don't agree on alot of issues, but not once have I insulted or disrespected you in any way...in any thread.


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## Nice & Wavy (Jan 26, 2008)

mzcris said:


> Hi Nice & Wavy
> 
> My husband and I are faithful tithers and givers! Our lives are the better because we tithe. Great thread lady!!


 
Amen.  That blesses me greatly.  Dh and I lives are better too because we tithe...in every area of our lives.

I appreciate your post.  Please stay prayerful for this thread.

Blessings.


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## Southernbella. (Jan 26, 2008)

Nice & Wavy said:


> When I started this thread, I did not have you in mind, Lauren. I didn't even think that you were going to come into this thread anyway, so how did I insult you?
> 
> What you said in this thread, was direct to me and I told you how I felt and instead of you apologizing with a heart of love, you come back with the above and say you believe in forgiveness....I'm sorry, its not all good when it goes down like that.
> 
> I know we don't agree on alot of issues, but not once have I insulted or disrespected you in any way...in any thread.


 
I didn't mean this thread. And yes, you have insulted me, but I'm sure it wasn't intentional, the same way I didn't intend to insult you. You don't even know you did it, but you did. I'm sure I've insulted more than one person at some time or another. But like I said, I do believe in forgiveness. I have forgiven you and I hope you can forgive me, and I apologize for insulting you.


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## Nice & Wavy (Jan 26, 2008)

alexstin said:


> This made me think of a question I have. We(my family) tithe off all monetary gifts. Let's say someone gets your child a giftcard and they'd rather have the cash because they would prefer to use that money elsewhere. You(the parent) give them the cash in exchange for the giftcard. Do you then have you child tithe off the cash they now have?


 
When my son was young, I let him tithe off the cash he was given...to teach him to give to the Lord.  My son today as an adult, does not live for God, yet he continues to tithe to the church because he understands the meaning of giving the tithe.


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## Nice & Wavy (Jan 26, 2008)

lauren450 said:


> I didn't mean this thread. And yes, you have insulted me, but I'm sure it wasn't intentional, the same way I didn't intend to insult you. You don't even know you did it, but you did. I'm sure I've insulted more than one person at some time or another. But like I said, I do believe in forgiveness. I have forgiven you and I hope you can forgive me, and I apologize for insulting you.


 
If I unintentionaly insulted you, why didn't you say something to me, since we are sisters in Christ and all?  I'm not an unreasonable person...a pm would have been fine and we could have talked about it, instead of bringing up the past in this thread.  I said that you insulted me as a pastor by saying did I study the scriptures that I put in the OP...what does that really have to do with another thread? Obviously..we aren't going to get anywhere with this.  

Lauren, I do believe in forgiveness as well, and for the sake of someone giving their life to Jesus Christ, I most certainly would not want that to happen because of what I do or say, therefore I do forgive you and I ask that you forgive me as well and please, seriously, accept my apologies if I said or did anything outside of myself to you at any time that would cause you to feel bad.

Blessings.


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## alexstin (Jan 26, 2008)

Nice & Wavy said:


> When my son was young, I let him tithe off the cash he was given...to teach him to give to the Lord.  My son today as an adult, does not live for God, yet he continues to tithe to the church because he understands the meaning of giving the tithe.




Yes, we definitely have them tithe when money is given to them and we have been having them tithe when we give them cash in exchange for a gift card someone gives them. Just wondering......


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## PaperClip (Jan 26, 2008)

lauren450 said:


> Abraham was going to give the spoils back. He never intended to keep them as his own because he didn't want to be enriched by another king.
> 
> *21 The king of Sodom said to Abram, "Give me the people and keep the goods for yourself." *
> *22 But Abram said to the king of Sodom, "I have raised my hand to the LORD, God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth, and have taken an oath 23 that I will accept nothing belonging to you, not even a thread or the thong of a sandal, so that you will never be able to say, 'I made Abram rich.' 24 I will accept nothing but what my men have eaten and the share that belongs to the men who went with me—to Aner, Eshcol and Mamre. Let them have their share."*
> ...


 
The spoils belonged to Abraham for him to do whatever he wanted to do with them. That's why the King of Sodom told Abraham to keep the goods, maybe as an award for defeating Sodom's enemies. Abraham, in honor to his Lord, didn't want to accept the award. The story continues in the next chapter (Genesis 15): Verse 1: "After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward." And here's where this act of tithing, faith, and worship unto the Lord set Abraham apart from other folk:

Genesis 15:2-6
"2And Abram said, LORD God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? 
3And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir. 
4And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. 
5And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. 

And Isaac became that seed...from what seemed to be an IMPOSSIBLE situation.... that's what TITHING will do....

Ok... I'm chewing on this a bit so here's what I feel/sense:

The word "law" is a very loaded term. The birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ fulfilled the law, but DID NOT UNDO the PRINCIPLES of which the Mosaic law enforced. For example, Mark 10 talks about divorce outlined in the Old Testament and how Jesus applied it in the New Testament:

(The Message)
Divorce
1-2 From there he went to the area of Judea across the Jordan. A crowd of people, as was so often the case, went along, and he, as he so often did, taught them. Pharisees came up, intending to give him a hard time. They asked, "Is it legal for a man to divorce his wife?"

3Jesus said, "What did Moses command?" 


4They answered, "Moses gave permission to fill out a certificate of dismissal and divorce her." 

5-9Jesus said, "Moses wrote this command only as a concession to your hardhearted ways. In the original creation, God made male and female to be together. Because of this, a man leaves father and mother, and in marriage he becomes one flesh with a woman—no longer two individuals, but forming a new unity. Because God created this organic union of the two sexes, no one should desecrate his art by cutting them apart."

10-12When they were back home, the disciples brought it up again. Jesus gave it to them straight: "A man who divorces his wife so he can marry someone else commits adultery against her. And a woman who divorces her husband so she can marry someone else commits adultery." 

So Jesus did not UNDO the ACT of divorce or even Moses' law concerning divorce, but gave us the parameters for when divorce is permitted.

I think this is the way the principle and practice of tithing is to be applied to us today. So to answer your question, I practice the biblical PRINCIPLE of tithing.


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## Nice & Wavy (Jan 26, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> The spoils belonged to Abraham for him to do whatever he wanted to do with them. That's why the King of Sodom told Abraham to keep the goods, maybe as an award for defeating Sodom's enemies. Abraham, in honor to his Lord, didn't want to accept the award. The story continues in the next chapter (Genesis 15): Verse 1: "After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward." And here's where this act of tithing, faith, and worship unto the Lord set Abraham apart from other folk:
> 
> Genesis 15:2-6
> "2And Abram said, LORD God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
> ...


 
@ the bolded...me too.

Thank you, RR for these scripture references.


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## Southernbella. (Jan 26, 2008)

Nice & Wavy said:


> If I unintentionaly insulted you, why didn't you say something to me, since we are sisters in Christ and all? I'm not an unreasonable person...a pm would have been fine and we could have talked about it, instead of bringing up the past in this thread. I said that you insulted me as a pastor by saying did I study the scriptures that I put in the OP...what does that really have to do with another thread? Obviously..we aren't going to get anywhere with this.
> 
> Lauren, I do believe in forgiveness as well, and for the sake of someone giving their life to Jesus Christ, I most certainly would not want that to happen because of what I do or say, therefore I do forgive you and I ask that you forgive me as well and please, seriously, accept my apologies if I said or did anything outside of myself to you at any time that would cause you to feel bad.
> 
> Blessings.


 
I'll pm you!


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## Nice & Wavy (Jan 26, 2008)

lauren450 said:


> I'll pm you!


  ok, lauren.


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## Southernbella. (Jan 26, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> The spoils belonged to Abraham for him to do whatever he wanted to do with them. That's why the King of Sodom told Abraham to keep the goods, maybe as an award for defeating Sodom's enemies. Abraham, in honor to his Lord, didn't want to accept the award. The story continues in the next chapter (Genesis 15): Verse 1: "After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward." And here's where this act of tithing, faith, and worship unto the Lord set Abraham apart from other folk:
> 
> Genesis 15:2-6
> "2And Abram said, LORD God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
> ...


 
I also agree that Jesus didn't do away with the law, but fulfilled it. He made it so that we don't have to abide by the letter of the law, but rather the spirit of the law.


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## PaperClip (Jan 26, 2008)

lauren450 said:


> I also agree that Jesus didn't do away with the law, but fulfilled it. He made it so that we don't have to abide by the letter of the law, but rather the spirit of the law.


 
But using the divorce example (it's a crude choice of example because God HATES divorce, but it demonstrates the point), divorce still exists. Divorce didn't go away. And Christians still have to "abide" by the guidelines of matrimony and divorce, when applicable...in both the LETTER and SPIRIT. So it is with tithing...or fasting...and so on and so forth.


spirit >>> principle: similar/related concepts....

From www.m-w.com Dictionary:

spirit: 11 a*:* prevailing tone or tendency <_spirit_ of the age> b*:* general intent or real meaning <_spirit_ of the law>

principle: 1 a*:* a comprehensive and fundamental law, doctrine, or assumption b (1)*:* a rule or code of conduct (2)*:* habitual devotion to right principles <a man of _principle_> 

I didn't expect to find this link: http://ecclesia.org/truth/letter.html
Beginning paragraph. There's more at the link:

There is a great confusion in the phrase "letter of the law." Many Christians believe this to mean that we are not under God's Law anymore, and that we are free to disregard God's Law (such as the Ten Commandments), as long as we keep the spirit of the law. However, it is a scriptural truth that if one is truly keeping the spirit of the law, then one will not break the letter of the law. (Clarification: this does not pertain to the temporary, sacrificial laws, such as sacrificing animals for our sins; because these laws passed away. But when it comes to God's law that gives us a knowledge of sin, it does matter, because if one is keeping the spirit of the law, one will not sin against the Lord). 

The scriptural phrase “the letter of the law” appears in only three passages. In order to understand what this phase means, let us study these three passages carefully. As will be seen, this phrase refers to the ceremonial laws that waxed old and passed away, not to the written law of God that gives us a knowledge of sin.


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## Precious_1 (Jan 26, 2008)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Lauren, you have certainly insulted me and my position as a pastor and minister of the gospel by saying this. I studied these scriptures and took alot of time on this and you are going to say this and think its ok for you to do so? Hmmmm....
> 
> This is not a battle of scriptures, Lauren. Get your scriptures together if you like.
> 
> I have nothing more to say because I just don't....


Nice & Wavy, thanks for posting all of the scriptures. I tithe


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## Nice & Wavy (Jan 26, 2008)

Precious_1 said:


> Nice & Wavy, thanks for posting all of the scriptures. I tithe


 
You are welcome, Precious...and thank you for posting and its good to know that you are a tither too!


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## PaperClip (Jan 26, 2008)

lauren450 said:


> I also agree that Jesus didn't do away with the law, but fulfilled it. He made it so that we don't have to abide by the letter of the law, but rather the spirit of the law.
> 
> *Wait, where does it say that this was because Abraham gave to Melchezidek? I read it a few times, but I'm missing it. I agree with you about the spoils. *
> 
> ...


I think that's a big point: we are in the dispensation of grace. We are not MANDATED to do anything but to love.


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## Shimmie (Jan 27, 2008)

Tithing is something that I will NEVER regret doing with what belongs to God anyway...for all of the silver and the gold; the cattle on a thousand hills belong to the Lord.   He's just gracious enough to allow us to have a share of it; and quite generous He is in His sharing with us.

His grace is upon those who do not give back to the Lord what is His...tithe.  For the 'tithe' is the Lord's.  Including the 90% that He allows one to keep.  Including the 101% (yes, 101%) that He has allowed those who do not tithe keep.

Tithing is a Covenant between the tither and God.  And the same promises that God made with Abraham (as a tither), God made to us as well.  A Covenant is a sealed promise of the Lord that He will always keep; Grace, is also a promise, but it is unmerited. 

I have so many testimonies from being a Tither and a Giver.  God made a Covenant with me regarding my children and my children's children and their children for generations to come.  And he has never failed me.  Over 25 years of Covenant and god has never failed me.

We either trust God or we don't.  I'd rather 'trust Him and believer Him. 

A Tither with no regrets....I am.  Thank you Jesus for all you have done for me.  While others laughed, ridiculed, flamed me, you yet prepared a table before me in the very presence of my enemies....and for this I will always thank you with all of my heart.  In Jesus's name.  Amen and Amen... :heart2:


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## kbragg (Jan 27, 2008)

Tithing is a Spiritual Law, just like the law of reaping and sowing, giving, sin and death, etc. It is not a "requirement" to be blessed but I do believe based on personal experience that when you do it in faith, it's just about guaranteed. Tithing is the only time in the Bible where God allows us to test Him.

All I know is, when I didn't tithe, I never had enough, I couldn't pay bills, struggled etc. When me and DH began tithing, we've experienced God's faithfulness first hand, where even in a time of financial famine, God provided for us SUPERNATURALLY! Mathematically it doesn't make sense, but He did it.

I don't believe we're required to do it, but I think it's kinda stoopid NOT too! I mean if God says "test me" well my goodness, that's better odds than anything else. Actually many non Christians tithe, and many metaphysicals use Biblical principles of finances and prosperity to become wealthy, the thing that's kinda jacked IMO is we HAVE the truth, so how much moreso should WE be using what God gave us than the world?

ETA: I know my thinking doesn't fit into many people's "traditions" and "religious oxes" but based on what I've read in the Word, neither does God.


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## Lissa0821 (Jan 27, 2008)

I totally agree with you Kbragg, I have lived on both sides of the fences One of not tithing, telling God that I can't afford to give 10% on my paycheck with all the bills I was dealing with and still coming up short living paycheck to paycheck. One of tithing, gladly bringing 10% of my income and more to church and experincing more than enough in spite of what the checkbook register said. So from personal experience, I choose to be a tither because I have seen and experienced favor and money come my way that was far above my paycheck could contribute. I see tithing as a act of obedience and expression of your love for God. I don't see it as money I am giving but it is finances that will be used to further the kingdom of God, plus I will never be able to outgive God.


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## TrustMeLove (Jan 27, 2008)

I tithe, because I feel God has told me/commanded me to tithe and not only tithe but just be a giver. Give to people in need..do what I can for those who don't have. It' just in me to do that type of good to people.

I am big on feeding the homeless. And it's not like oh go down to a shelter and help out, but as simple as buying a couple protein bars or a large pizza and giving it out to the homeless in the neighborhood or who I see on my travels.  

I see giving as a way to contribute to kingdom building. 

I've heard Malachi 3:8  all my life, but it never really became real real to me until about 3 or 4 months ago. Like oh yea don't rob God, you rob Him in tithes and offering. Etc..I tithe before this, but it was like WOW! At that moment it became soo powerful when I read a little further.

8 “ Will a man rob God? 
      Yet you have robbed Me! 
      But you say, 

      ‘ In what way have we robbed You?’ 
      In tithes and offerings. 
       9 *You are cursed with a curse, 
      For you have robbed Me, *
      Even this whole nation. 
10 Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, 
      That there may be food in My house, 
      And try Me now in this,” 
      Says the LORD of hosts, 

      “ If I will not open for you the windows of heaven 
      And pour out for you such blessing 
      That there will not be room enough to receive it.
       11 “ And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, 
      So that he will not destroy the fruit of your ground, 
      Nor shall the vine fail to bear fruit for you in the field,” 
      Says the LORD of hosts;  
  12 And all nations will call you blessed, 
      For you will be a delightful land,” 
      Says the LORD of hosts.

I read this in church one sunday and I just started shouting. The Spirit of the Lord just made me sooo happy in this. Especially the underlining part. 

I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes. WOW. Soo many blessings out of returning to God what was/is his all along. Like it just doesn't make sense to bless be for this, but He decided he will and he does. Ok. I receive it. However, there are downsides to this, being cursed. Like doing something so simple could release huge blessings, but not doing something so simple could release a huge curse.

Something else that I had been saying, but is right here in scripture. *Bring the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house.*

God doesn't need to eat or food in his house. What is he going to do with this tithe? He is going to give it to his children who are in need. Who lack, who need that supernatural intervention. And that's what the church is suppose to be doing. Not keeping it in the church buying new fancy carpet and glass chandeliers when they don't have any type of outreach and giving programs in the church. 

OK. That's it.


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## Nice & Wavy (Jan 27, 2008)

Shimmie said:


> Tithing is something that I will NEVER regret doing with what belongs to God anyway...for all of the silver and the gold; the cattle on a thousand hills belong to the Lord. He's just gracious enough to allow us to have a share of it; and quite generous He is in His sharing with us.
> 
> His grace is upon those who do not give back to the Lord what is His...tithe. For the 'tithe' is the Lord's. Including the 90% that He allows one to keep. Including the 101% (yes, 101%) that He has allowed those who do not tithe keep.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for posting, Shimmie.

I can now see how tithing is really important...I think more now, since this thread, than all the years I have been a tither.

When the enemy comes in like a flood, the Lord will raise up a standard against him!  Praise the Lord!

I will continue to give, above and beyond my tithes and offerings.

Amen.


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## Nice & Wavy (Jan 27, 2008)

TrustMeLove said:


> I tithe, because I feel God has told me/commanded me to tithe and not only tithe but just be a giver. Give to people in need..do what I can for those who don't have. It' just in me to do that type of good to people.
> 
> I am big on feeding the homeless. And it's not like oh go down to a shelter and help out, but as simple as buying a couple protein bars or a large pizza and giving it out to the homeless in the neighborhood or who I see on my travels.
> 
> ...


 
You are very special...trustmelove and God is using you mightly with your words.  Continue to stand and after you have done all to stand...STAND!

Blessings...always!


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## Highly Favored8 (Jan 27, 2008)

Thank U for this post Nice & Wavy AMEN!

The is BIBLE means 
B-Basic
I- Instructions
B-Before
L-Leaving 
E-Earth

I feel that tithing is a big part of expanding God's Kingdom! A person must be careful where they tithe they must tithe into good ground. 
I claim Malachi 3:10 every day, and I tell it what has been going on in my life that YES God does not lie and by me tithing and giving to his work and his kingdom, the Lord will continue to Bless me! I love tithing to God's work and being in Convenat Realtionship with God and not only that, the church where I attened when we bring in our first fruits we are sowing into good ground.

Also, not only tithes just does not pay for the bills of the church. In my church it goes into the community to feed the homeless and the needy.
I LOVE the Lord and I will tithe 10% or 15% to advance his kingdom.


last relaxer 12-19-07 Affrim
next relaxer 3-25-08 erplexed
Current APL length
I am Claiming BSL by 12-31-08


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## Highly Favored8 (Jan 27, 2008)

Shimmie said:


> Tithing is something that I will NEVER regret doing with what belongs to God anyway...for all of the silver and the gold; the cattle on a thousand hills belong to the Lord. He's just gracious enough to allow us to have a share of it; and quite generous He is in His sharing with us.
> 
> His grace is upon those who do not give back to the Lord what is His...tithe. For the 'tithe' is the Lord's. Including the 90% that He allows one to keep. Including the 101% (yes, 101%) that He has allowed those who do not tithe keep.
> 
> ...


 
AMEN 
I can Attest to this as well
God Is Good 
All the Time
and All the Time God is Good!


The is BIBLE means 
B-Basic
I- Instructions
B-Before
L-Leaving 
E-Earth

I feel that tithing is a big part of expanding God's Kingdom! A person must be careful where they tithe they must tithe into good ground. 
I claim Malachi 3:10 every day, and I tell it what has been going on in my life that YES God does not lie and by me tithing and giving to his work and his kingdom, the Lord will continue to Bless me! I love tithing to God's work and being in Convenat Realtionship with God and not only that, the church where I attened when we bring in our first fruits we are sowing into good ground.

Also, not only tithes just does not pay for the bills of the church. In my church it goes into the community to feed the homeless and the needy.
I LOVE the Lord and I will tithe 10% or 15% to advance his kingdom.


last relaxer 12-19-07 Affrim
next relaxer 3-25-08 erplexed
Current APL length
I am Claiming BSL by 12-31-08


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## intellect_sensual (Jan 27, 2008)

Nice & Wavy said:


> If you don't have a problem with tithing...then what's the problem?
> 
> The only frivolous arguments that I have been witnessing is between christians and its a shame. How are people going to come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, when they see that there are people who are going to attack each other with their words because they don't agree?
> 
> ...


 
I don't have a problem, but you seem to have one. Is this the way you disagree with my statement? What is a shame exactly? Disagreeing, on seeing the bible in a light that might be different from what is popular? I am not attacking you, but it seems like you are attacking me, and putting words in my mouth. Yes many people come in agree with tithing, and like I said I don't have a problem with it, I just see it in a different way. It is not my point to be popular or have everyone agree with me. Jesus was never popular, actually he was not liked by many people who claimed they were experts on the word of God. I am not an expert, and it seems for some they just can't accept that they might just be wrong. 
Like I said before, I don't tithe the way you are referring, but I give, and give what I am compelled to give, and I do with a humble heart, and gladly. I am blessed, and my storebasket is never empty. How many people give their 10th every week, and are sick, broke etc... Is there tithing not working? Or are they not giving enough? Tithing does not equal blessings, following God's commandments are exactly what allows you to receive blessings. How many times did Jesus say this? How many times have the bible referred to this? I don't need to give my 10% faithfully to have faith in God, maybe some people do, which is why they attribute their blessings to tithing.

 Could it just be that God is pleased with you following his commandments? What about Job, David, and etc... who were blessed just because they were pleasing in God's sight. Why were they pleasing to Him? Because they obeyed his commandments Period!!! Not because they tithed, and no where in the Word was a specific person blessed JUST because they tithed.

My point is this, tithe if you want, but please don't make it seem as if you are better than the next person that doesn't, because that idea right there will send you where?


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## intellect_sensual (Jan 27, 2008)

I am sorry if I came off a bit defensive, I really didn't mean to, but I felt attacked. I just disagree, and we can do that. Like I said before I don't have a problem with tithing, just with the idea that you HAVE to tithe, and it makes you better than the next man that does not (especially if that person is a giver), or it's going to make you more blessed.

Further more, why are people letting their kids give 10% of their GIFTS as tithe . I thought tithe was 10% of EARNINGS! I thought the child got a gift, or a card? How does that become something that can be tithed?


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## TrustMeLove (Jan 27, 2008)

God has always brought back to my memory that We don't have any power to change people. All we can do is plant the seed and let god finish in the spirit what He began in the spirit (Phillipians 1:6)  Our responsibility is to just spread the message and let God do the rest. 

We can't beat anyone into believing what we believe, by scriptures or words. It is something that has to take place in the spiritual. And it will only occur if that is what God wants to happen. If God wants this message to take root in their lives or if He is fine with the way they are doing things already it wont take root.

And something as serious as tithing isn't something we can beat into people with scriptures. If anyone feels that they have the truth regarding this matter, just state it back it up with scriptures and if God wants someone to receive that message TRUSTME He will make sure it gets to them in HIS timing.

I am not saying Christians can't disagree, but there is a way to go about it. 

Let us come together to truly glorify God and magnify how great and mighty He is in all of our lives.


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## Mahalialee4 (Jan 27, 2008)

lauren450 said:


> Did you guys read the scriptures in context? Have you really studied this stuff, or are you just trying to prove your point? I'm not trying to be funny, but you're missing it.
> 
> The tithe that Abraham gave wasn't a tithe. For one, he didn't give based on anything he earned. He gave from someone else's property. Second, it was a freewill offering of 10%. Which again proves what we have been saying. If we are not under the law to tithe, then we are free, like Abraham, to give 10, or 5 , or 35%, and God is pleased with it all.
> 
> ...



These are my same sentiments as well re: the points you expressed here. Also, Those priests were using the tithe to generate riches for themselves, robbing God and the nation: Malachi 3:8-10


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## Mahalialee4 (Jan 27, 2008)

lauren450 said:


> Again, Abrahams "tithe" wasn't a true tithe the way God commanded it. It was a freewill offering. If anything, this supports the point that God has given us the choice to give what is purposed in our hearts. Abraham wasn't commanded to give 10%, but he decided to. Also, he didn't give from his own earnings, he gave from the spoils of war that belonged to the other king (I'll have to go back and reread). The spoils didn't belong to him, but before he returned those spoils to their rightful owner, he decided to give some to Melchizedek. So, not a good example of being under law or covenant to tithe.
> 
> There are no more Levite priests. They were the only ones able to legally collect a tithe. So again, if we are being technical, what you are doing isn't tithing, it's freewill giving of 10%.



I agree. Where it gets sad is when what should be free will, and not under compulsion tying up heavy BURDENS on the people, rather than the people feeling blessed to give, it becomes a Yoke, and Christ says His yoke is kindly and his burden is light. If someone makes $3000 per month, has no responsibilities a month it may not be a burden, but if some person with a family of five takes home a $1000 or less and their bonafide family expenses are $985. it could become  a burden to give that 10 per cent every month no matter what. No dentist, no doctor, no holiday for your family, no grad dress, no car repairs etc and pay childcare too. And when other believers make them feel, sinful, like thieves and faithless, and they are pointed out to others, indirectly, cause word does get around, or spiritually rebuked and any thing they suffer is directly related to the "sin of not giving 10 per cent!"
 that is also sad. God may very well be pleased, with their mite! The widow did what she could, right and a favorable testimony was given about her in the Scriptures?


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## Mahalialee4 (Jan 27, 2008)

QUOTE=Nice & Wavy;3626775]q Gen 14:19 (Abraham’s give of 10%)
q Gen 28:20-22 (Jacob decision to give 10% to God)
q Exod 35:4-29 (Moses and the people’s gifts to build the tabernacle)
q Lev 27:30 (Tithe of everything is the Lord’s)
q Lev 27:32 (Every tenth animal is the Lord’s)
q Num 18:21 (Tithes support ministers of God)
q Deut 12:5-7 (Tithes, special gifts, freewill offerings)
q Deut 14:22-29 (Set aside a tenth to learn to revere God)
q 2 Chr 31:2-12 (Hezekiah generosity & giving instructions)
q Neh 10:35-37 (Nehemiah’s giving instructions)
q Neh 12:43-47 (Faithful giving to God’s ministers)
q Neh 13:11-13 (Nehemiah’s rebuke & the results)
q Mal 3:7-12 (Holding back tithes & offerings is stealing from God)
q Matt 23:23 (Jesus’ affirmation of tithing)
q Luke 11:42 (Jesus’ affirmation of tithing)
q I Kings 17:8-16 (Elijah and the starving widow)
q Deut 8:18 (God gives people ability to produce wealth)
q Prov 3:9-10 (Honor the Lord with your wealth & firstfruits)
q Exod 36:3-6 (Moses restrains people from bringing offerings)
q Mal 1:6-14 (Malachi’s rebuke for bringing bad offerings)
q Hag 1:4-11 (Haggai’s giving challenge)
q 1 Chr 29:2-9 (David’s generous gift  & giving challenge)
q 1 Chr 29:11-17 (Everything we have and gives comes from God)
q Luke 6:38 (Give and God will see others give to you)
q 2 Cor 8:2-21 (Rich generosity in the midst of extreme poverty)
q 2 Cor 9:5-15 (God loves a cheerful giver)
q Deut 28:12-13, 43-45 (Blessings & curses for obedience)
q Ps 50:9-12 (God owns everything)
q Prov 11:24-25 (Generosity is the pathway for more)
q Prov 18:9 (Slackness in giving is the same as destroying things)
q Prov 22:9 (Generous man will be blessed)
q Prov 28:22 (Stingy man is eager to get rich, but gets poverty)
q Prov 28:27 (Give and have enough, withhold and be cursed)
q Matt 6:25-34 (Don’t worry, but seek first the kingdom of God)
q Mark 12:41-44 (Rich people giving and the widow’s mite)
q Deut 16:10 (Give in proportion to the blessings the Lord has given you)
q Deut 16:16 (No man should appear before the Lord empty-handed)
q Deut 16:17 (Each person should give in proportion to the way God has blessed them)
q 1 Cor 16:2 (On the first day of each week, give according to God’s blessing)
q 1 Tim 6:6-11 (Cautions about the materialism and the love of money)
q 1 Tim 6:17-19 (Instructions to be generous and willing to share)
q 1 Sam 30:24 (Those who stay with the supplies share with those on the front lines)
q Matt 6:19-21 (Do not store up for yourselves treasure on earth – heart & treasure linked)
q Heb 6:10 (God is not unfair, He will not forget the help you gave)
q Isa 32:8 (Noble man makes noble plans)
q Acts 2:44-45 (Believers had everything in common)
q Acts 4:34-37 (No needy persons.  Sale of lands and houses.)
q Rom 12:13 (Share with God's people who are in need)
q Heb 13:16 (Don’t forget to do good and share with others)
q I Jn 3:17 (Do you see brothers in need – help them)
q Luke 18:22-25 (Rich man turns away from Jesus)
q Gal 6:6 (Support financially those who teach you the Word of God)
q Matt 25:35-40 (Helping the least of the brethren is helping Jesus)
q Acts 20:35 (It is more blessed to given than to receive)
​Since there are some who are questioning tithers and because I won't get into this type of discussion over in OT, but in the CF only, then I thought its fitting to begin this over here.

The one thing I'm going to stress is this:  For all who choose not to give their tithes for whatever YOUR reason is, doesn't mean that those who do are wrong.  

I know that give above and beyond my 10%....you would be amazed.  There are so many others that do as well.  I love to give and will continue as long as I have breath in me.

If this was something that the Lord didn't want us to do, why am I so blessed?  Why does He continue to pour out His blessings in my life and so many others that I know of?  Why?  Well, I can say this....there must be something to it, or it would not happen.

Anyhoo....for those who want to understand it more and see what the Word has to say about it, be blessed with it.  ​[/QUOTE]

I need to ask about one scripture and I have some questions that I will post. Hope this is okay with you.


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## Mahalialee4 (Jan 28, 2008)

QUOTE=Nice & Wavy;3626775]q Gen 14:19 (Abraham’s give of 10%)
q Gen 28:20-22 (Jacob decision to give 10% to God)
q Exod 35:4-29 (Moses and the people’s gifts to build the tabernacle)
q Lev 27:30 (Tithe of everything is the Lord’s)
q Lev 27:32 (Every tenth animal is the Lord’s)
q Num 18:21 (Tithes support ministers of God)
q Deut 12:5-7 (Tithes, special gifts, freewill offerings)
q Deut 14:22-29 (Set aside a tenth to learn to revere God)
q 2 Chr 31:2-12 (Hezekiah generosity & giving instructions)
q Neh 10:35-37 (Nehemiah’s giving instructions)
q Neh 12:43-47 (Faithful giving to God’s ministers)
q Neh 13:11-13 (Nehemiah’s rebuke & the results)
q Mal 3:7-12 (Holding back tithes & offerings is stealing from God)
q Matt 23:23 (Jesus’ affirmation of tithing)
q Luke 11:42 (Jesus’ affirmation of tithing)
q I Kings 17:8-16 (Elijah and the starving widow)
q Deut 8:18 (God gives people ability to produce wealth)
q Prov 3:9-10 (Honor the Lord with your wealth & firstfruits)
q Exod 36:3-6 (Moses restrains people from bringing offerings)
q Mal 1:6-14 (Malachi’s rebuke for bringing bad offerings)
q Hag 1:4-11 (Haggai’s giving challenge)
q 1 Chr 29:2-9 (David’s generous gift  & giving challenge)
q 1 Chr 29:11-17 (Everything we have and gives comes from God)
q Luke 6:38 (Give and God will see others give to you)
q 2 Cor 8:2-21 (Rich generosity in the midst of extreme poverty)
q 2 Cor 9:5-15 (God loves a cheerful giver)
q Deut 28:12-13, 43-45 (Blessings & curses for obedience)
q Ps 50:9-12 (God owns everything)
q Prov 11:24-25 (Generosity is the pathway for more)
q Prov 18:9 (Slackness in giving is the same as destroying things)
q Prov 22:9 (Generous man will be blessed)
q Prov 28:22 (Stingy man is eager to get rich, but gets poverty)
q Prov 28:27 (Give and have enough, withhold and be cursed)
q Matt 6:25-34 (Don’t worry, but seek first the kingdom of God)
q Mark 12:41-44 (Rich people giving and the widow’s mite)
q Deut 16:10 (Give in proportion to the blessings the Lord has given you)
q Deut 16:16 (No man should appear before the Lord empty-handed)
q Deut 16:17 (Each person should give in proportion to the way God has blessed them)
q 1 Cor 16:2 (On the first day of each week, give according to God’s blessing)
q 1 Tim 6:6-11 (Cautions about the materialism and the love of money)
q 1 Tim 6:17-19 (Instructions to be generous and willing to share)
q 1 Sam 30:24 (Those who stay with the supplies share with those on the front lines)
q Matt 6:19-21 (Do not store up for yourselves treasure on earth – heart & treasure linked)
q Heb 6:10 (God is not unfair, He will not forget the help you gave)
q Isa 32:8 (Noble man makes noble plans)
q Acts 2:44-45 (Believers had everything in common)
q Acts 4:34-37 (No needy persons.  Sale of lands and houses.)
q Rom 12:13 (Share with God's people who are in need)
q Heb 13:16 (Don’t forget to do good and share with others)
q I Jn 3:17 (Do you see brothers in need – help them)
q Luke 18:22-25 (Rich man turns away from Jesus)
q Gal 6:6 (Support financially those who teach you the Word of God)
q Matt 25:35-40 (Helping the least of the brethren is helping Jesus)
q Acts 20:35 (It is more blessed to given than to receive)

Since there are some who are questioning tithers and because I won't get into this type of discussion over in OT, but in the CF only, then I thought its fitting to begin this over here.

The one thing I'm going to stress is this:  For all who choose not to give their tithes for whatever YOUR reason is, doesn't mean that those who do are wrong.  

I know that give above and beyond my 10%....you would be amazed.  There are so many others that do as well.  I love to give and will continue as long as I have breath in me.

If this was something that the Lord didn't want us to do, why am I so blessed?  Why does He continue to pour out His blessings in my life and so many others that I know of?  Why?  Well, I can say this....there must be something to it, or it would not happen.

Anyhoo....for those who want to understand it more and see what the Word has to say about it, be blessed with it.  ​[/QUOTE]

I am curious. I am sorry that you felt insulted by being asked if you had read these Scriptures and you specifically felt insulted because of as you stated: "your position as a pastor".
I would like to ask you a question, trusting you will not be offended, about one of the Scriptures that you posted, specifically, Galatians 6:6 and in brackets beside it you have typed (Support Financially those who teach you the word of God). Now to be fair, I am going to check out different translations, but the one I am reading from is a King James Version which reads: "Let him that is taught in the word COMMUNICATE unto him that teacheth in all good things." So I am wondering where money comes into this Scripture specifically. Another King James version reads: "Let him who is taught with the  word share in all good things with him who teaches." If this is talking about money and financial (monetary) support, what are your thoughts on Paul choosing to support himself with his own hands rather than burden believers? I understand some pastors do not take a 10 percent tithe or demand it. But so many make it all about getting money and that is the only form of "sharing" that they are interested in receiving. As a pastor, if I came to you and stated my reasons and questioned the 10 per cent obligatory regulated tithing of church members, as practiced by many pastors, how would you feel toward me? How would this be handled in your church? I am hoping that you will not be offended that I did not pm you. I believe pastors are part of the body of Christ, I do not know you on a personal level so hoping that as one member to another I could ask you this as it is about doctrine, and not personal private matters and you publicly posted these Scripures. I would really appreciate an answer from you from your heart and not from your position, as I am not attacking your position. In good faith I ask You these questions on this powerful doctrinal issue  because I understand, hopefully correctly,  that you are a pastor, right? Finally, if the gift of Salvation and the Word of God is free, why are we being charged to pay money for someone to preach a Free gospel of good news to us? And if some pastors choose to live beyond their means, why should Christians have to pay salary money to be in God's good graces? Do Pastors ( who often state from the pulpit, " I have a word for you this morning from God"...do they receive the Word that they preach on Sundays freely from God or did He charge them? If they receive freely, should they not "share" as the Scriptures say "give freely?" The Free invitation given in Isaiah Chapter 55:1 has always blessed me..."to come buy and eat without money without price.." and Revelation 22: 17..."And the Spirit and the Bride say 'Come'... and let him that heareth say 'Come' ...and let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely". That was the love of God that drew me. What are your thoughts about this, because the blatant emphasis on "money" particularly in the "prosperity and seed teachings" and the sense of entitlement to lavish lifestyles by some has always puzzled me and turned me off.


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## kbragg (Jan 28, 2008)

I don't think anyone is condemning anyone here for not tithing, just sharing our personal testimonies. I don't think it's fair to judge those that do tithe either. Let's not go to extremes in assuming about each other brothers and sisters. Just because a church receives tithes doesn't mean they're using it to consume on their own lusts. I personally have never been to a church like that. Many churches give annual statements to givers showing that their contributions are going into the furthering of the Kingdom of God. Also please do not judge tithers as seeing themselves as righteous for their giving. Many of us give out of a grateful heart, and trust God at His Word. Once again, it's the ONLY thing God ever says to test Him on and all I know is that since I've been tithing, I have not ever had to beg for bread. God supernaturally provided for us, we tithed without and increase of income. And as a result, our income has increased.

If a person chooses not to tithe, well that's their choice and I am fine with that, all I know is, it seems to work for me.


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## PaperClip (Jan 28, 2008)

kbragg said:


> I don't think anyone is condemning anyone here for not tithing, just sharing our personal testimonies. I don't think it's fair to judge those that do tithe either. Let's not go to extremes in assuming about each other brothers and sisters. Just because a church receives tithes doesn't mean they're using it to consume on their own lusts. I personally have never been to a church like that. Many churches give annual statements to givers showing that their contributions are going into the furthering of the Kingdom of God. Also please do not judge tithers as seeing themselves as righteous for their giving. Many of us give out of a grateful heart, and trust God at His Word. Once again, it's the ONLY thing God ever says to test Him on and all I know is that since I've been tithing, I have not ever had to beg for bread. God supernaturally provided for us, we tithed without and increase of income. And as a result, our income has increased.
> 
> If a person chooses not to tithe, well that's their choice and I am fine with that, all I know is, it seems to work for me.


 
Good word.... 

And honestly, I think the argument about the pastor stealing the money and all that jazz kind of sounds like a cop-out to justify not taking a step of FAITH to tithe. I'm certainly not condemning anyone who doesn't tithe. In fact, I'm screaming and shouting and telling you to step out on faith and take the Lord at His word and TITHE!!!! I'm almost begging you all to try it. Not even because the church "needs" the money because you know what? The LORD GOD ALMIGHTY will rapture this planet first before He lets His true churches go down because of lack. The Lord takes care of His bride. Nobody in the body of Christ is INdispensible. The Lord ALWAYS has a remnant to get His job done. There will ALWAYS be someone willing to give (and tithe) willingly and cheerfully, do, and make him/herself available to the Lord. One of my prayers to the Lord is this: "Lord I am weak, I am willing, please show me the way".

And another thing: guess who else is probably against tithing? the devil! How about that? Anything to hinder the saints of the Most High God from advancing the Kingdom of God.... Please, please do not take me to say that non-tithers are associated with the devil. Please don't take it there because that's not what I'm saying at all.

Trust the Lord God Almighty and apply the PRINCIPLE of tithing to your life. You WILL NOT EVER REGRET IT AS LONG AS YOU LIVE ON PLANET EARTH.


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## alexstin (Jan 28, 2008)

Mahalialee4 said:


> I agree. Where it gets sad is when what should be free will, and not under compulsion tying up heavy BURDENS on the people, rather than the people feeling blessed to give, it becomes a Yoke, and Christ says His yoke is kindly and his burden is light. If someone makes $3000 per month, has no responsibilities a month it may not be a burden, but if some person with a family of five takes home a $1000 or less and their bonafide family expenses are $985. it could become  a burden to give that 10 per cent every month no matter what. No dentist, no doctor, no holiday for your family, no grad dress, no car repairs etc and pay childcare too. And when other believers make them feel, sinful, like thieves and faithless, and they are pointed out to others, indirectly, cause word does get around, or spiritually rebuked and any thing they suffer is directly related to the "sin of not giving 10 per cent!"
> that is also sad. God may very well be pleased, with their mite! *The widow did what she could, right and a favorable testimony was given about her in the Scriptures*?



The widow isn't recognized because she gave only 2 coins she is recognized because she gave all that she had and by doing so honored God  just as much as  those who put in money out of their surplus.

Sometimes people give when it "hurts". Giving when it stretches you financially is not a bad thing.


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## Nice & Wavy (Jan 28, 2008)

intellect_sensual said:


> I don't have a problem, but you seem to have one. Is this the way you disagree with my statement? What is a shame exactly? Disagreeing, on seeing the bible in a light that might be different from what is popular? I am not attacking you, but it seems like you are attacking me, and putting words in my mouth. Yes many people come in agree with tithing, and like I said I don't have a problem with it, I just see it in a different way. It is not my point to be popular or have everyone agree with me. Jesus was never popular, actually he was not liked by many people who claimed they were experts on the word of God. I am not an expert, and it seems for some they just can't accept that they might just be wrong. I'm sorry you feel this way.
> 
> Like I said before, I don't tithe the way you are referring, but I give, and give what I am compelled to give, and I do with a humble heart, and gladly. I am blessed, and my storebasket is never empty. How many people give their 10th every week, and are sick, broke etc... Is there tithing not working? Or are they not giving enough? Tithing does not equal blessings, following God's commandments are exactly what allows you to receive blessings. How many times did Jesus say this? How many times have the bible referred to this? I don't need to give my 10% faithfully to have faith in God, maybe some people do, which is why they attribute their blessings to tithing.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for posting.


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## jturner7156 (Jan 28, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Good word....
> 
> And honestly, I think the argument about the pastor stealing the money and all that jazz kind of sounds like a cop-out to justify not taking a step of FAITH to tithe. I'm certainly not condemning anyone who doesn't tithe. In fact, I'm screaming and shouting and telling you to step out on faith and take the Lord at His word and TITHE!!!! I'm almost begging you all to try it. Not even because the church "needs" the money because you know what? The LORD GOD ALMIGHTY will rapture this planet first before He lets His true churches go down because of lack. The Lord takes care of His bride. Nobody in the body of Christ is INdispensible. The Lord ALWAYS has a remnant to get His job done. There will ALWAYS be someone willing to give (and tithe) willingly and cheerfully, do, and make him/herself available to the Lord. One of my prayers to the Lord is this: "Lord I am weak, I am willing, please show me the way".
> 
> ...


 
I couldn't have said this better myself, RelaxerRehab. I, myself believe in the giving of tithes. No, I have not read those scriptures that Nice&Wavy posted but I have experienced the good of giving tithes and the bad of not giving tithes. Here is my testimony:

I had begun going to church probably in late September or so but I did not give my first tithes until the 1st Sunday in November and then that thursday, I went to a networking session at my school. As I was standing near the refreshment table, the lady from the career center came to me and informed me on a position with a local Fortune 300 company. She said I would be a good fit and I should apply. Well I did and I am at the job today which doubled my income. After that I continued to pay my tithes but my paycheck at my last job was not enough to cover my expenses so I was "unable" to pay my tithes so I didn't...Wellllll, I suffered the consequences. My electricity bill was sky high, my checking account was overdrawn and it was literally like I had wholes in my pockets (as the scripture says). So, I know there will be someone who says, that could of happened even if you did pay your tithes but *I SERIOUSLY DOUBT IT!!!*


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## shalom (Jan 28, 2008)

WOW.  

"The word of God says it would be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a man to part with his riches."

Peace


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## PaperClip (Jan 28, 2008)

shalom said:


> WOW.
> 
> "The word of God says it would be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a man to part with his riches."
> 
> Peace


 
So...how does this apply to tithing, a form of GIVING TO THE LORD?

I think this ranks as one of the most overused, misinterpreted scriptures in the Word. 

Look at the scripture: it says it would be "easier", not IMPOSSIBLE.


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## Nice & Wavy (Jan 28, 2008)

Mahaliee, here are the answers to your previous questions:

I am curious. I am sorry that you felt insulted by being asked if you had read these Scriptures and you specifically felt insulted because of as you stated: "your position as a pastor". Yes, it was insulting because the person you are referring to, asked if I studied what I wrote...and of course I did. If I said to you in a post..."is that your real hair or did you glue it on." wouldn't you be insulted?

I would like to ask you a question, trusting you will not be offended, about one of the Scriptures that you posted, specifically, Galatians 6:6 and in brackets beside it you have typed (Support Financially those who teach you the word of God). Now to be fair, I am going to check out different translations, but the one I am reading from is a King James Version which reads: "Let him that is taught in the word COMMUNICATE unto him that teacheth in all good things." So I am wondering where money comes into this Scripture specifically. If you read the scripture in Numbers 18:21 it says: " _I give to the Levites all the tithes in Israel as their inheritance in return for the work they do while serving at the Tent of Meeting." vs 23 says: "It is the Levites who are to do the work at the Tent of Meeting and bear the responsibility for offenses against it. This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come."_

And in Galatians 6:6 we read: " _Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor."_

What does that tell me? It tells me that the pastors/ministers of the church should be supported financially from the people within the body. The pastor is the one who gives instruction in the word, so the "good things" should be finances, as well as help in various areas of the ministry.
The pastor is also the one who deals with offenses that come about within the church as well....shepherding the flock and tending to them. 

When people in the church have problems, the pastor is the one who is there with them to help them as much as they are able. Getting up at 2-3-4am in the morning to go to the hospitals; assisting them when they have death in the family, etc. I thank God for my pastor and many others that I know do these things and more.

Another King James version reads: "Let him who is taught with the word share in all good things with him who teaches." If this is talking about money and financial (monetary) support, what are your thoughts on Paul choosing to support himself with his own hands rather than burden believers? I believe that the Apostle Paul didn't hinder the believers to give to him. His desire to support himself is evident, but he also understood the principle of giving...as he too was a giver.

I understand some pastors do not take a 10 percent tithe or demand it. But so many make it all about getting money and that is the only form of "sharing" that they are interested in receiving. As a pastor, if I came to you and stated my reasons and questioned the 10 per cent obligatory regulated tithing of church members, as practiced by many pastors, how would you feel toward me? How would this be handled in your church? As a pastor I understand the principles of giving, that is why I give. Many pastors is not like ALL pastors and shouldn't be linked together this way. If someone demands that people give, I would have a problem with that, but...that is not something I have ever experienced in the last 21 years. There are many people who are not christians and serve other gods, but we don't say that their god is the God of the Bible. We know that there is a difference.

I am hoping that you will not be offended that I did not pm you. I'm not offended in the least. 

I believe pastors are part of the body of Christ, I do not know you on a personal level so hoping that as one member to another I could ask you this as it is about doctrine, and not personal private matters and you publicly posted these Scripures. I respect this statement, thank you. 

I would really appreciate an answer from you from your heart and not from your position, as I am not attacking your position. Anything I have ever written on this forum is from my heart and because I am a pastor, doesn't mean that I look to people to listen to everything I say. I think its wonderful that there are people who study the word and ask questions if they are not sure, I just ask that they ask with a spirit of love and not to be disrespectful to me in their asking. I don't think that's unreasonable to ask this.

In good faith I ask You these questions on this powerful doctrinal issue because I understand, hopefully correctly, that you are a pastor, right? Finally, if the gift of Salvation and the Word of God is free, why are we being charged to pay money for someone to preach a Free gospel of good news to us? I don't know of anyone who charges admission to get into a church to hear the word. If that is something that you have witnessed, I'm sorry about that. And if some pastors choose to live beyond their means, why should Christians have to pay salary money to be in God's good graces? Sorry, I can't answer that because although I know of pastors that have in abundance, I can't say where they get their money, because I do not know.

Do Pastors ( who often state from the pulpit, " I have a word for you this morning from God"...do they receive the Word that they preach on Sundays freely from God or did He charge them? If they receive freely, should they not "share" as the Scriptures say "give freely?" The Free invitation given in Isaiah Chapter 55:1 has always blessed me..."to come buy and eat without money without price.." and Revelation 22: 17..."And the Spirit and the Bride say 'Come'... and let him that heareth say 'Come' ...and let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely". That was the love of God that drew me. What are your thoughts about this, because the blatant emphasis on "money" particularly in the "prosperity and seed teachings" and the sense of entitlement to lavish lifestyles by some has always puzzled me and turned me off.[/quote] The Lord desires for us to prosper and be in health, even as our soul prospers. As we study the Word of God, we see that there are many references to helping the people in ministry, even as I have stated in a previous post. Yes, salvation is free...but there is a cost to take care of the ministry and that most certainly includes money. 

I can't tell you why some people who are pastors/ministers do the things they do. I can't speak for them...so the ones you know, you can ask them and let them give you an answer as to why. I simply don't know.

What I do know is that we all will have to go before the Lord in that day, and then we will know in part. I am just doing what the Lord has told me to do, and I do it with all of my heart.

Thank you for posting.


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## Southernbella. (Jan 28, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> I think that's a big point: we are in the dispensation of grace. We are not MANDATED to do anything but to love.


 
I agree with that. Then, do you agree with the way tithing is taught to Christians...that they are mandated by God and will be cursed if they don't?


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## Nice & Wavy (Jan 28, 2008)

kbragg said:


> I don't think anyone is condemning anyone here for not tithing, just sharing our personal testimonies. I don't think it's fair to judge those that do tithe either. Let's not go to extremes in assuming about each other brothers and sisters. Just because a church receives tithes doesn't mean they're using it to consume on their own lusts. I personally have never been to a church like that. Many churches give annual statements to givers showing that their contributions are going into the furthering of the Kingdom of God. Also please do not judge tithers as seeing themselves as righteous for their giving. Many of us give out of a grateful heart, and trust God at His Word. Once again, it's the ONLY thing God ever says to test Him on and all I know is that since I've been tithing, I have not ever had to beg for bread. God supernaturally provided for us, we tithed without and increase of income. And as a result, our income has increased.
> 
> If a person chooses not to tithe, well that's their choice and I am fine with that, all I know is, it seems to work for me.


 
Thanks for posting, Kbragg!


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## Southernbella. (Jan 28, 2008)

TrustMeLove said:


> I tithe, because I feel God has told me/commanded me to tithe and not only tithe but just be a giver. Give to people in need..do what I can for those who don't have. It' just in me to do that type of good to people.
> 
> I am big on feeding the homeless. And it's not like oh go down to a shelter and help out, but as simple as buying a couple protein bars or a large pizza and giving it out to the homeless in the neighborhood or who I see on my travels.
> 
> ...


 
TrustMeLove, that Malachi scripture is about God being displeased with the priests for not bringing the tithes (that the people did pay) into the storehouse and using them the way he commanded. It's not about the people. 

But I do agree that the purpose of the tithe was to provide for the people who had nothing.


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## Nice & Wavy (Jan 28, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Good word....
> 
> And honestly, I think the argument about the pastor stealing the money and all that jazz kind of sounds like a cop-out to justify not taking a step of FAITH to tithe. I'm certainly not condemning anyone who doesn't tithe. In fact, I'm screaming and shouting and telling you to step out on faith and take the Lord at His word and TITHE!!!! I'm almost begging you all to try it. Not even because the church "needs" the money because you know what? The LORD GOD ALMIGHTY will rapture this planet first before He lets His true churches go down because of lack. The Lord takes care of His bride. Nobody in the body of Christ is INdispensible. The Lord ALWAYS has a remnant to get His job done. There will ALWAYS be someone willing to give (and tithe) willingly and cheerfully, do, and make him/herself available to the Lord. One of my prayers to the Lord is this: "Lord I am weak, I am willing, please show me the way".
> 
> ...


 
This too is a great word, RR.  Thank you for posting.


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## Southernbella. (Jan 28, 2008)

intellect_sensual said:


> I don't have a problem, but you seem to have one. Is this the way you disagree with my statement? What is a shame exactly? Disagreeing, on seeing the bible in a light that might be different from what is popular? I am not attacking you, but it seems like you are attacking me, and putting words in my mouth. Yes many people come in agree with tithing, and like I said I don't have a problem with it, I just see it in a different way. It is not my point to be popular or have everyone agree with me. Jesus was never popular, actually he was not liked by many people who claimed they were experts on the word of God. I am not an expert, and it seems for some they just can't accept that they might just be wrong.
> Like I said before, I don't tithe the way you are referring, but I give, and give what I am compelled to give, and I do with a humble heart, and gladly. I am blessed, and my storebasket is never empty. How many people give their 10th every week, and are sick, broke etc... Is there tithing not working? Or are they not giving enough? Tithing does not equal blessings, following God's commandments are exactly what allows you to receive blessings. How many times did Jesus say this? How many times have the bible referred to this? I don't need to give my 10% faithfully to have faith in God, maybe some people do, which is why they attribute their blessings to tithing.
> 
> Could it just be that God is pleased with you following his commandments? What about Job, David, and etc... who were blessed just because they were pleasing in God's sight. Why were they pleasing to Him? Because they obeyed his commandments Period!!! Not because they tithed, and no where in the Word was a specific person blessed JUST because they tithed.
> ...


 
Great post!


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## Nice & Wavy (Jan 28, 2008)

alexstin said:


> The widow isn't recognized because she gave only 2 coins she is recognized because she gave all that she had and by doing so honored God more than those who put in money out of their surplus.
> 
> *Sometimes people give when it "hurts". Giving when it stretches you financially is not a bad thing.[/*quote]
> 
> @ the bolded.  Girl, I surely do know about this for sure


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## Southernbella. (Jan 28, 2008)

Mahalialee4 said:


> I agree. Where it gets sad is when what should be free will, and not under compulsion tying up heavy BURDENS on the people, rather than the people feeling blessed to give, it becomes a Yoke, and Christ says His yoke is kindly and his burden is light. If someone makes $3000 per month, has no responsibilities a month it may not be a burden, but if some person with a family of five takes home a $1000 or less and their bonafide family expenses are $985. it could become a burden to give that 10 per cent every month no matter what. No dentist, no doctor, no holiday for your family, no grad dress, no car repairs etc and pay childcare too. And when other believers make them feel, sinful, like thieves and faithless, and they are pointed out to others, indirectly, cause word does get around, or spiritually rebuked and any thing they suffer is directly related to the "sin of not giving 10 per cent!"
> that is also sad. God may very well be pleased, with their mite! The widow did what she could, right and a favorable testimony was given about her in the Scriptures?


 
I agree with you. It doesn't say it expicitly in the Bible, but I have a hard time believing that the poor and widowed and fatherless paid tithes if one of the tithes went directly to them. Somehow we've gotten to a point where the poot are expected to pay tithes as a measure of thier faithfulness, and it has become a burden for them, instead of a joy.


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## Southernbella. (Jan 28, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Good word....
> 
> And honestly, I think the argument about the pastor stealing the money and all that jazz kind of sounds like a cop-out to justify not taking a step of FAITH to tithe. I'm certainly not condemning anyone who doesn't tithe. In fact, I'm screaming and shouting and telling you to step out on faith and take the Lord at His word and TITHE!!!! I'm almost begging you all to try it. Not even because the church "needs" the money because you know what? The LORD GOD ALMIGHTY will rapture this planet first before He lets His true churches go down because of lack. The Lord takes care of His bride. Nobody in the body of Christ is INdispensible. The Lord ALWAYS has a remnant to get His job done. There will ALWAYS be someone willing to give (and tithe) willingly and cheerfully, do, and make him/herself available to the Lord. One of my prayers to the Lord is this: "Lord I am weak, I am willing, please show me the way".
> 
> ...


 
So, you don't think freewill giving is as good as tithing? I think what gets lost here is that everyone believes we should give. We disagree on whether we are still under law to tithe, or if we are to practice giving as the New Testament instructs. I believe that if you are deciding to give 10%, you are practicing New Testament giving the same as somebody who gave more or less.


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## envybeauty (Jan 28, 2008)

tithing seems to be the only hot topic on this forum. 

my two cents....

tithing is really more about acknowledging that what you have belongs to God.  just like praying is acknowledging that God is present.  both acts are really about humbling yourself and acknowledging God.

whether the pastor uses the money for planes, etc. or other corrupt purposes is not going to help the non-tither. i have not heard of one person getting rich because they kept their money instead of tithing. did people go broke tithing? no. those people were broke before they threw two nickels in the plate.

a lot of rumors spread about churches and pastors. it is time that Christians stop enabling gossipers to destroy the Church.


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## Southernbella. (Jan 28, 2008)

alexstin said:


> The widow isn't recognized because she gave only 2 coins she is recognized because she gave all that she had and by doing so honored God more than those who put in money out of their surplus.
> 
> *Sometimes people give when it "hurts". Giving when it stretches you financially is not a bad thing*.


 
I agree with this. I think this also supports freewill giving. God is still pleased with what the poor person gives because it was a sacrifice for THEM, even if it wasn't a tithe in the traditional sense.


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## TrustMeLove (Jan 28, 2008)

lauren450 said:


> TrustMeLove, that Malachi scripture is about God being displeased with the priests for not bringing the tithes (that the people did pay) into the storehouse and using them the way he commanded. It's not about the people.
> 
> But I do agree that the purpose of the tithe was to provide for the people who had nothing.



I'll PM you. Only because I feel by discussing this on this thread will violate at least for me 2 Tim 2:14.

2TIM 2: 14 Of these things put [them] in remembrance, charging [them] before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, [but] to the subverting of the hearers.


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## Nice & Wavy (Jan 28, 2008)

nvybeauty said:


> tithing seems to be the only hot topic on this forum.
> 
> my two cents....
> 
> ...


 
This is one of the best posts in this thread.  Think you, nvybeauty for saying this, especially the bolded.  I appreciate your honesty


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## envybeauty (Jan 28, 2008)

Nice & Wavy said:


> This is one of the best posts in this thread.  Think you, nvybeauty for saying this, especially the bolded.  I appreciate your honesty



Truth be told, I am also being honest with myself. I often remind myself to stop bringing any attention to the gossip going around. It does not benefit the Church; in fact, it harms us more than anything.

The rest of what I said is more what I believe now.  God merely wants us to do certain things to show reverence and obedience. God is no respecter of persons; He does not need for us to do anything.  He created all things and He can provide for widows, orphans, etc. without one person tithing one red cent.  He can provide for them all on his own.  He merely wants us to acknowledge him in all our ways.  Giving is no exception.


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## PaperClip (Jan 28, 2008)

lauren450 said:


> I agree with that. Then, do you agree with the way tithing is taught to Christians...that they are mandated by God and will be cursed if they don't?


 
Nowwww we're getting to the heart of the matter! 

I can only speak for me.... I have been in church my entire life and I have never felt like I would be cursed if I didn't tithe. Maybe that's because tithing was simply a part of practicing our faith in my home/family...since I was a CHILD. I thought it was a special privilege to be a part of that covenant principle called tithing. And it really didn't take any "prompting", if you will, from the pastor for me to start tithing when I got my first job at age 16 years old. I did it because I felt the Lord impressed it upon my heart to do so and that impression lined up with the Word of God. I know that tithing has done things for my life, my family, all who belong to me in this life. Tithing has done things that money cannot buy. It's not just a money thing. It's about covenant relationship with the Lord.

I recognize that some pastors may have presented tithing (and giving in general) with a lot of "stuff" around it, in a hostile way. But it's not happening at every church. Also, a person has free will and accessibility to pray, seek the Lord and explore and rightly divide the Word for him/herself concerning giving.

Which leads me back to the point about the term "mandate": *since the coming of the Lord FULFILLED the law, His SACRIFICE TOOK OFF the PUNISHMENT/CURSE for not OBEYING the MANDATE, but He DID NOT UNDO the PRINCIPLE or ACT of tithing, just like divorce, fasting, giving, etc.*
*
(Thank You, Holy Spirit for this illumination!)*

Again, we are under the dispensation of grace. We have access to the Father through the Lord Jesus Christ. The shed blood of Jesus Christ is available to us to cover and wash away our sins and trangressions, the sins we MEANT to do and the sins we didn't mean to do. Recall that in the Old Testament, if a "mandate" was violated, it could have meant expulsion from the camp, or even death. Jesus Christ fulfilled everything so we don't have to do all of the rituals that Jews still do(?) to rid ourselves of the punishment of sin.

But as I said before about my question of giving the tithes from earnings or "spoils", e.g., bonuses, etc. with regard to how it was done by Abraham or the Israelites (but it's coming to me that the Israelites probably gave out of their earnings)....


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## Nice & Wavy (Jan 28, 2008)

nvybeauty said:


> Truth be told, I am also being honest with myself. I often remind myself to stop bringing any attention to the gossip going around. It does not benefit the Church; in fact, it harms us more than anything.
> 
> The rest of what I said is more what I believe now. God merely wants us to do certain things to show reverence and obedience. God is no respecter of persons; He does not need for us to do anything. He created all things and He can provide for widows, orphans, etc. without one person tithing one red cent. He can provide for them all on his own. He merely wants us to acknowledge him in all our ways. Giving is no exception.


 
ITA with your post.  Obedience is the key word.

Thank you.


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## PaperClip (Jan 28, 2008)

lauren450 said:


> So, you don't think freewill giving is as good as tithing? I think what gets lost here is that everyone believes we should give. We disagree on whether we are still under law to tithe, or if we are to practice giving as the New Testament instructs. I believe that if you are deciding to give 10%, you are practicing New Testament giving the same as somebody who gave more or less.


 
It's not a point of comparison between the two. Every believer has free will to give. Every believer has free will to tithe. What might be thought-provoking for those who have yet to tithe is the witness and testimony from the Bible and from tithers in this thread that there comes a...oh, help me out here tithers... a covenant relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ...a deeper form of worship unto the Lord....

Think about it this way: Everybody can praise the Lord. But only BELIEVERS can WORSHIP the Lord. Why? Because there's a different form of relationship that happens between "real" believers and everybody else. So it is the distinction between "freewill giving" and tithing.

Freewill giving = praise; tithing = worship.


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## PaperClip (Jan 28, 2008)

nvybeauty said:


> Truth be told, I am also being honest with myself. I often remind myself to stop bringing any attention to the gossip going around. It does not benefit the Church; in fact, it harms us more than anything.
> 
> The rest of what I said is more what I believe now. God merely wants us to do certain things to show reverence and obedience. God is no respecter of persons; *He does not need for us to do anything. He created all things and He can provide for widows, orphans, etc. without one person tithing one red cent. He can provide for them all on his own. He merely wants us to acknowledge him in all our ways. Giving is no exception.*


 
Hello!!!!


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## Nice & Wavy (Jan 28, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> It's not a point of comparison between the two. Every believer has free will to give. Every believer has free will to tithe. What might be thought-provoking for those who have yet to tithe is the witness and testimony from the Bible and from tithers in this thread that there comes a...*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## kbragg (Jan 28, 2008)

shalom said:


> WOW.
> 
> "The word of God says it would be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a man to part with his riches."
> 
> Peace


 
Wow. The Bible also says poverty is a CURSE. Also, you must look at the full Scripture in context. What was Jesus saying? He was saying that the rich who have their hope wrapped up in their riches will have a harder time getting into heaven than a camel through the eye of a needle. This scripture is almost as misquoted and pervert as "money is the root of all evil." It is a lie.

Here is what Matthew 19:16-26 actually says:


 16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 
 17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 
 18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 
 19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 
 20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 
 21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 
 22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. 
 23Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 
 24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 
 25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?  26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. 

As we see here, Jesus already knew the rich man's heart. We could discuss this all day but my question to you is this: if money is evil, why on EARTH would God have a habit of making people like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Solomon, David, and the list goes on filthy stinkin' rich?Why would God intentionally snare His own people? The answer is He wouldn't. If God allows you to obtain wealth, and IMO if you simply follow the teaching of the Bible pertaining to wealth (hint: It's not all about playing the offering plate lotto), it's because it's not all for YOU! I encourage you to check out the site www.gfa.org and get the free book Revolutions In World Missions. IMO God does not have a HUGE body of believers in one of the most prosperous countries in the world, where basically anyone with ambition, a great work effort, working as unto God, and many other Biblical Principles on how to obtain and properly stewart the increase God gives, by accident. It's strategic. A few hundred dollars a year given to oan organization like GFA can equipe these native missionaries to reach THOUSANDS with the Gospel. It's no accident Saints. Get out of you (our) "religious boxes" and what you've (we've) been taught and told. It's not all about us at all!

We are supposed to be a channel of blessing. Paul instructed the wealthy churches to give to the poor churches in Jerusalem, I believe God is saying today to the American churches to give to the poor churches in Asia. The money we have is NOT to build bigger church buildings, to do another kids bible camp, to buy expensive houses and cars, it's to be used to expand God's Kindom, and it's a little hard to do broke and in debt. Anywho, that's a whole nother topic lol.


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## Shimmie (Jan 28, 2008)

Tithing supports, Ministry and Miinstry is NEEDED in this earth.  

In many, many, cases "Offerings" are only 'pinches' and 'peels' from most 'Church Goers', who actually are giving God banana skins after they've eaten the fruit inside.  

Giving God the leftovers.... 

It's the choice of 'free will' to give when one feels like it or what they 'feel' like giving.  But how can one sit in a service and not contribute.  The tither's are truly the ones picking up the 'slack' from the 'slack' givers. Were it not for Tithers, there would be fewer Churches to worship in.   A Tither is one who is loyal in support of the Church he/she belongs to.  A giver, is loyal first to themselves, then God is last.


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## Nice & Wavy (Jan 28, 2008)

Shimmie said:


> Tithing supports, Ministry and Miinstry is NEEDED in this earth.
> 
> In many, many, cases "Offerings" are only 'pinches' and 'peels' from most 'Church Goers', who actually are giving God banana skins after they've eaten the fruit inside. Hmmmm....I never thought of that in this way.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for this post, Shimmie.


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## Southernbella. (Jan 28, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Nowwww we're getting to the heart of the matter!
> 
> I can only speak for me.... I have been in church my entire life and I have never felt like I would be cursed if I didn't tithe. Maybe that's because tithing was simply a part of practicing our faith in my home/family...since I was a CHILD. I thought it was a special privilege to be a part of that covenant principle called tithing. And it really didn't take any "prompting", if you will, from the pastor for me to start tithing when I got my first job at age 16 years old. I did it because I felt the Lord impressed it upon my heart to do so and that impression lined up with the Word of God. I know that tithing has done things for my life, my family, all who belong to me in this life. Tithing has done things that money cannot buy. It's not just a money thing. It's about covenant relationship with the Lord.
> 
> ...


 
I see what you're getting at. I always tithed because I wanted to. I believe all that time, I was practicing giving as the New Testament instructed. I jut didn't know it! 

I also agree with you about curses.  All curses were broken at the foot of the cross.

Ok, I have a question about the principles you are talking about. Do you believe in this for all of Mosaic Law?

I think we agree on most things, but where we disagree is that the principle of tithing still applies. I believe the principle was GIVING. If you say the principle is tithing, then I think you have to do it correctly.

I think about the purpose of the tithe...how it was an inheritance for the Levites, who had none. All believers in Christ have an eternal inheritance. What is the purpose of the tithe today? If giving can supply the needs of the church, as Paul instructed, then what does "tithing" specifially do for believers today? 

As for your last question, it is my understanding that the tithe came from the increase of the field. I'm not sure I fully understand increase vs. the regular harvest, especially since there were certain years when the tithe was collected, but I'm going to study that some more. Hopefully someone will give their insight on that.


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## Southernbella. (Jan 28, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> It's not a point of comparison between the two. Every believer has free will to give. Every believer has free will to tithe. *What might be thought-provoking for those who have yet to tithe is the witness and testimony from the Bible and from tithers in this thread that there comes a...oh, help me out here tithers... a covenant relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ...a deeper form of worship unto the Lord....*
> 
> Think about it this way: Everybody can praise the Lord. But only BELIEVERS can WORSHIP the Lord. Why? Because there's a different form of relationship that happens between "real" believers and everybody else. So it is the distinction between "freewill giving" and tithing.
> 
> Freewill giving = praise; tithing = worship.


 
The meat! What made you come to this conclusion? Tithe wasn't about worship at all. The covenant was made with the Israelites, who were the chosen people at that time, but that covenant is gone. It is no more. We have a New Covenant in Christ Jesus, which has nothing to do with tithing, since that was part of Mosaic Law.

*Hebrews 8:6*
*6But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.*

*Hebrews 8:13*

*13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.*


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## PaperClip (Jan 28, 2008)

lauren450 said:


> I see what you're getting at. I always tithed because I wanted to. I believe all that time, I was practicing giving as the New Testament instructed. I jut didn't know it!
> 
> I also agree with you about curses. All curses were broken at the foot of the cross.
> 
> ...


 
Again, good points and good questions.... we're really unpacking this thing and its generating good conversation and moreso thrusting us toward deeper insights from the Word of God.


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## PaperClip (Jan 28, 2008)

lauren450 said:


> The meat! What made you come to this conclusion? Tithe wasn't about worship at all. The covenant was made with the Israelites, who were the chosen people at that time, but that covenant is gone. It is no more. We have a New Covenant in Christ Jesus, which has nothing to do with tithing, since that was part of Mosaic Law.
> 
> *Hebrews 8:6*
> *6But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.*
> ...


 
I feel like we're spinning here....

The law was FULFILLED. The principles that the LAW was instituted to ENFORCE were NOT UNDONE (including tithing). I used the example of divorce as mentioned in Mark 10 in an earlier post. Let's explore Hebrews 8 in more detail:
*A New Covenant*

 7For (P)if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. *At least two reasons why the first covenant had FAULT: 1) NO GRACE and 2) INSUFFICIENT because they were DISOBEDIENT!!! (See Hebrews 7). If you violated the law, you were cursed/marked for death! Now, even if we disobey knowingly or unknowingly, we have grace and access to His forgiveness. We can go to the Lord ourselves instead of having to go through the priests. *

 8For finding fault with them, He says,
         "(Q)BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
         WHEN I WILL EFFECT (R)A NEW COVENANT
         WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH; 
    9(S)NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
         ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
         TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
*FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
         AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.* 
    10"(T)FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
         AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
*I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
         AND I WILL WRITE THEM (U)ON THEIR HEARTS.*
*(if the (principles of) the law was supposed to be undone, ignored, put away, WHY would the Lord put HIS laws on OUR MINDS and write them on our HEARTS? Because we are to maintain the PRINCIPLES that needed to be enforced by the law because the Israelites needed "boundaries" (a nice way to say that were "stiff-necked"!*         AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
         AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 
    11"(V)AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
         AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,'
         FOR (W)ALL WILL KNOW ME,
         FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM. 
    12"(X)FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
         (Y)AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE." 
 13When He said, "(Z)A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete (AA)But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.


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## Shimmie (Jan 28, 2008)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Thanks for this post, Shimmie.


Precious Wavy, we see this 'everyday'.  Folx come to Church dressed in all their finest and George Washington and Abe Lincoln are their counterparts. 

I need to clarify that I'm not speaking about those who really can't give (such as the widow and her mite); there many who don't have money; or have situations where Grace MUST abound in their lives.  I not speaking of these persons. 

But the ones who DO have it to give, and choose not to .  They don't have the spiritual revelation that our Tithes are Kingdom essentials.  One cannot give selfishly.  Those who give sparingly, reap sparingly.  

The example of Cain and Abel says it all....


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## Nice & Wavy (Jan 28, 2008)

Shimmie said:


> Precious Wavy, we see this 'everyday'. Folx come to Church dressed in all their finest and George Washington and Abe Lincoln are their counterparts.
> 
> I need to clarify that I'm not speaking about those who really can't give (such as the widow and her mite); there many who don't have money; or have situations where Grace MUST abound in their lives. I not speaking of these persons.
> 
> ...


 
Shimmie, there was a time that I couldn't tithe with finances, but I gave myself and my talents as a tithe within the body.  Some people don't even attend church or tithe, yet they say that what a tither do with their money is wrong.  

Even if we change the word "tithe" and say we give a 10th, it will still be a problem.


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## Mocha5 (Jan 28, 2008)

Does anyone else see tithing as a Holy Spirit issue?  I’m talking the Holy Spirit that gives us the same power that God used to raise Jesus from the dead? 

As a spirit filled, believer tithing is not an option for me nor is it a free will act.  I'm compelled to do so.  Much like others have stated I have seen a dramatic difference in my finances.  But it doesn’t stop there.  Being blessed in my opinion has very little to do with an abundance of money but more to do with spiritual growth.  As my tithes and offerings have increased, so has my spiritual maturity.  And really spiritual maturity is all that we should seek.  Money comes and goes.  In a world where the almighty dollar is more important than the Almighty God, I place my total and complete faith in God concerning my finances.  I do that by giving him at least 10 percent just like it states in the Old Testament.  The Old Testament is a blue print from which to build your foundation.  Because I have a new builder, doesn’t mean I should throw out my blueprint.  At the end of the day, it still gives me great direction.  


*1 Now about the collection for God's people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do.*
*2 On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.**1 Cor 16:1-2*

*23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices-- mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law-- justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.**Matt 23:23*


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## kally (Jan 28, 2008)

I want to tithe, but right now it will not come from the heart, and if it is not from the heart, it is a sin.


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## PaperClip (Jan 28, 2008)

kally said:


> I want to tithe, but right now it will not come from the heart, and if it is not from the heart, it is a sin.


 
All I can say here is sometimes you gotta fake it 'til you can make it. There were times I didn't feel like going to church... went with STRAIGHT AT-TITUDE! But by the time service was done I felt better....

The Lord knows your heart and your concerns.... Talk to Him about them. He can handle your questions and your frustrations and your attitude, too!


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## Nice & Wavy (Jan 28, 2008)

Mocha5 said:


> Does anyone else see tithing as a Holy Spirit issue? I’m talking the Holy Spirit that gives us the same power that God used to raise Jesus from the dead?
> 
> As a spirit filled, believer tithing is not an option for me nor is it a free will act. I'm compelled to do so. Much like others have stated I have seen a dramatic difference in my finances. But it doesn’t stop there. Being blessed in my opinion has very little to do with an abundance of money but more to do with spiritual growth. As my tithes and offerings have increased, so has my spiritual maturity. And really spiritual maturity is all that we should seek. Money comes and goes. In a world where the almighty dollar is more important than the Almighty God, I place my total and complete faith in God concerning my finances. I do that by giving him at least 10 percent just like it states in the Old Testament. The Old Testament is a blue print from which to build your foundation. Because I have a new builder, doesn’t mean I should throw out my blueprint. At the end of the day, it still gives me great direction.
> 
> ...


 
Mocha's back.....whoo-hoo....

Welcome back...sis...I miss you!


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## TrustMeLove (Jan 28, 2008)

Mocha5 said:


> Does anyone else see tithing as a Holy Spirit issue?  I’m talking the Holy Spirit that gives us the same power that God used to raise Jesus from the dead?
> 
> As a spirit filled, believer tithing is not an option for me nor is it a free will act.  I'm compelled to do so.  Much like others have stated I have seen a dramatic difference in my finances.  But it doesn’t stop there.  Being blessed in my opinion has very little to do with an abundance of money but more to do with spiritual growth.  As my tithes and offerings have increased, so has my spiritual maturity.  And really spiritual maturity is all that we should seek.  Money comes and goes.  In a world where the almighty dollar is more important than the Almighty God, I place my total and complete faith in God concerning my finances.  I do that by giving him at least 10 percent just like it states in the Old Testament.  The Old Testament is a blue print from which to build your foundation.  Because I have a new builder, doesn’t mean I should throw out my blueprint.  At the end of the day, it still gives me great direction.
> 
> ...



Now you speaking a word. That's how I feel. I am compelled. It's just what I have to do. It's what I am called to do.  It's hard to explain it. But, it's really not a choice. 

Yes, in the past I have felt guilty when I spent all of God's money up on making sure I look good or I have the nice things in life, but have neglected my duty as an ambassador of Christ. That's where my guilt comes from. I can't even call it guilt, but the Holy Spirit be on a sistah..like uh uh I'm not having it.


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## Southernbella. (Jan 28, 2008)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Shimmie, there was a time that I couldn't tithe with finances, but I gave myself and my talents as a tithe within the body. Some people don't even attend church or tithe, yet they say that what a tither do with their money is wrong.
> 
> Even if we change the word "tithe" and say we give a 10th, it will still be a problem.


 
You can tithe your time and talent outside of the church, but within the body. In fact, that's one of the things we are called to do!


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## jturner7156 (Jan 28, 2008)

TrustMeLove said:


> Now you speaking a word. That's how I feel. I am compelled. It's just what I have to do. It's what I am called to do. It's hard to explain it. But, it's really not a choice.
> 
> Yes, in the past I have felt guilty when I spent all of God's money up on making sure I look good or I have the nice things in life, but have neglected my duty as an ambassador of Christ. *That's where my guilt comes from. I can't even call it guilt, but the Holy Spirit be on a sistah..like uh uh I'm not having it.*


 
I have experienced this exact feeling. This whole thread surprises me because I didn't think there were no means for negotiation when it came to tithes (or that's what I had to learn the HARD WAY) but I will say this, the non-believers may not want to be exposed to all of this information about paying tithes b/c they will began to feel the effects of sitting in church every sunday and not trusting God enough to give his house 10% of their income (crooked pastor or not...this is between you and God).


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## Shimmie (Jan 28, 2008)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Shimmie, there was a time that I couldn't tithe with finances, but I gave myself and my talents as a tithe within the body. Some people don't even attend church or tithe, yet they say that what a tither do with their money is wrong.
> 
> Even if we change the word "tithe" and say we give a 10th, it will still be a problem.


Precious Wavy, I've been there. I was in Church not just to sit and 'eat up the word', but I was there in the ministry of helps doing all that I could to be a blessing in the House of the Lord. Too many think that they are actually doing God a favor just by getting up and walking through the Church doors and sitting in the Pews.

They peel off their 'onenth' (1/10th of the Tithe); leave Church and go out to the Golden Coral, Red Lobster, IHop, spend a fortune, go to a movie, Blockbuster..........Ummmm, shop at Target, Walmart, Marshalls, whatever. 

NOTE: Everyone is entitled to enjoy a meal after "Church", I personally hate having to rush home and cook dinner. But I'm making a point. If we truly support our home Church, we're not going to be stingy in doing so. 

Too many times, I've given my 'last' and God blessed me so much, in ways that I couldn't imagine doing myself. I have so many testimonies of how He delivered me from so much shame. 

If anything, Tithe just to show God how much He is appreciated. What we do with our money, tells us who we are. Our money is our Definer! Where we spend it, defines our priorities in life. 

Again, I'm not speaking of anyone who is truly having challenges or simply does not have it. I was there and I know. I'm speaking of those who don't see the importance of the work of the Ministry being supported. God honors faithfulness to those who do see this. 

Maintaining a ministry is not free... The Gospel.. God's Word is Free, but the work of the ministry, which includes a decent salary for the ministers is not free. Pastors don't just preach for the sake of preaching. They have to stay in prayer to be lead of the Lord each and every single day of their lives. It's entails much sacrifice and it's a call which does not allow for a job outside of the Church. Although many, many Pastors have outside jobs, (mine does), it's extremely sacrificial. For many are working to make up the financial difference to keep the Church running.

The Laborer is worthy of his hire. The word of God says we are not to muzzle an ox, but to allow it to eat freely of the brush (foliage) upon the ground that it's plowing. Pastors are to be rightly commensated for the work that they do. 

The 'fools' in the media, have made it look as if all Pastors are fleecing the sheep, when in truth, its many of the sheep fleecing the Pastors. Pastors who give up their lives, just so they can answer to every beck and call of the congregation who thinks Pastor 'owes' them something. 

But it works both ways, here. God designed a support system for all to benefit, but all have to cooperate. 

My 'friend' gets ticked off when ppl do not face the reality of their decisons. He tells me this all the time, that people do not want to feel convicted of their sins; or to feel badly about the choices they've made, even when they know it's against 'God's will. They will use scripture to bow out of what's being called sin or rebellion. He shared that a person should just 'do it' but leave God out of it. 

My gentle question to those who offer, "Who's picking up your slack?" How much are you contributing to keep the Church heat on to keep you in a warm comfortable seat. How many tithers and how many times has Pastor picked up your slack while you held back, that which you could have given as your fair share. 

Nothing we utilize in this world is free. Nothing. Everything has a price to it, which is why God will honor one faithful to His works. 

I'm not even a Pastor, yet I know what they go though. The demands, the trials, the ungratefullness. It's sad. Really sad. 

Note: All of the above was spoken with the deepest of love. :heart2:


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## Nice & Wavy (Jan 28, 2008)

Shimmie said:


> Precious Wavy, I've been there. I was in Church not just to sit and 'eat up the word', but I was there in the ministry of helps doing all that I could to be a blessing in the House of the Lord. Too many think that they are actually doing God a favor just by getting up and walking through the Church doors and sitting in the Pews.
> 
> They peel off their 'onenth' (1/10th of the Tithe); leave Church and go out to the Golden Coral, Red Lobster, IHop, spend a fortune, go to a movie, Blockbuster..........Ummmm, shop at Target, Walmart, Marshalls, whatever.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you, Shimmie for understanding the role of the Pastor.

Although my husband and I have yet to have our own ministry in a building, our ministry consists mostly of married couples who are having difficulty in their marriage, and are trying to make it better.  We are worn out during those times of trial between couples, I mean we literally have to get up in the middle of the night sometimes and go to their home, when others are farting (I had to add that) and rolling over in their beds, we are up doing what we need to do to help others...it's not an easy job, but when you are called, you do what you must.

We don't ask for anything....not an offering or anything at anytime when we are doing the workshops.  Yet, they give to us and bless us continually...buying gifts, giving money...etc.  This is what is on their hearts and we receive it with a heart of gratitude and humbly express our deepest thanks.

We in turn, give back...to those we know have a need.  But, we also use it for our own personal things as well.  It's a gift to us and we accept it as such.

I give to my pastor too because he is deserving of it.  He works about 75-80 a week for the congregation and he should have what he needs.

No one is ever forced to give in where I attend church...we want to give and it shows.

God is good!


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## Shimmie (Jan 28, 2008)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Thank you, Shimmie for understanding the role of the Pastor.
> 
> Although my husband and I have yet to have our own ministry in a building, our ministry consists mostly of married couples who are having difficulty in their marriage, and are trying to make it better. We are worn out during those times of trial between couples, I mean we literally have to get up in the middle of the night sometimes and go to their home, when others are farting (I had to add that) and rolling over in their beds, we are up doing what we need to do to help others...it's not an easy job, but when you are called, you do what you must.
> 
> ...


I KNOW it's a 'pull' upon your life and energies.  It's work and not easy work.  It's a joy and an honor to be a Pastor, Minister, but it's work. 

With all of our hearts, no one is being 'attacked' for the choices they've made to Tithe or not to Tithe.  But when I saw it mentioned in a post above that the Gospel is Free, it had to be corrected.   For even the Bible from which the Gospel is ministered, was paid for by someone.  

What bothers me is that 'we' will pay out our monies to merchants and companies every single day who could care less about us and continue to make them rich (such as household items, credit card interest, shifty car dealers, dirty restaurants (you know what happens in restaurants), and yet not give God our best to keep the work of His going.


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## alexstin (Jan 28, 2008)

Nice & Wavy said:


> alexstin said:
> 
> 
> > The widow isn't recognized because she gave only 2 coins she is recognized because she gave all that she had and by doing so honored God more than those who put in money out of their surplus.
> ...


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## PaperClip (Jan 28, 2008)

TrustMeLove said:


> Now you speaking a word. That's how I feel. I am compelled. It's just what I have to do. It's what I am called to do. It's hard to explain it. But, it's really not a choice.
> 
> Yes, in the past I have felt guilty when I spent all of God's money up on making sure I look good or I have the nice things in life, but have neglected my duty as an ambassador of Christ. That's where my guilt comes from. *I can't even call it guilt, but the Holy Spirit be on a sistah..*like uh uh I'm not having it.


 
That's called being CONVICTED. That's a good thing. Rather have conviction than judgement!


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## TrustMeLove (Jan 28, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> That's called being CONVICTED. That's a good thing. Rather have conviction than judgement!



Thank you for that word. I couldn't even think of what I was trying to say. Convicted. Yes. And girl that Holy Spirit Be At work with the conviction. Lol I can't believe I couldn't remember that word. But, that the Lord for the Holy Spirit it has sat on me times I didn't want to act right. Times when I could have lost it all in one comment or in one action when I wanted to act out and the Holy Spirit has just set on me to keep me on the right track.


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## Shimmie (Jan 28, 2008)

TrustMeLove said:


> Thank you for that word. I couldn't even think of what I was trying to say. Convicted. Yes. And girl that Holy Spirit Be At work with the conviction. Lol I can't believe I couldn't remember that word. But, that the Lord for the Holy Spirit it has sat on me times I didn't want to act right. Times when I could have lost it all in one comment or in one action when I wanted to act out and the Holy Spirit has just set on me to keep me on the right track.


You're a doll baby...You even gave Jesus a "Birthday Party"


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## Mahalialee4 (Jan 28, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> It's not a point of comparison between the two. Every believer has free will to give. Every believer has free will to tithe. What might be thought-provoking for those who have yet to tithe is the witness and testimony from the Bible and from tithers in this thread that there comes a...oh, help me out here tithers... a covenant relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ...a deeper form of worship unto the Lord....
> 
> Think about it this way: Everybody can praise the Lord. But only BELIEVERS can WORSHIP the Lord. Why? Because there's a different form of relationship that happens between "real" believers and everybody else. So it is the distinction between "freewill giving" and tithing.
> 
> Freewill giving = praise; tithing = worship.



I trust that because someone "questions church doctrines" they are not automatically considered to be "persons who have never tithed, "...not "believers", "not in a right relationship with God" but just "everybody else". It is interesting how you break down free will offering and tithing, which implies free will givers only praise God and do not worship Him. So are you implying....when "free will" giving is done NOT under compulsion, but JUST AS EACH HAS DETERMINED IN THEIR HEART...out of humility, thankfulness, fully recognizing that all their blessings come from God, and joyfully relish their relationship with Him, and to further the interests of the Kingdom of God, giving what HE has laid on their heart as to where and to whom,... unless they give the pastor a regulated 10 per cent to the "pastor's church, they are not worshipping God and He is not satisfied with them? Very interesting. That is how I understood your statements. Is this what you were directly or indirectly conveying. Do you assume that about me, since I am sure you have read my posts re: tithing. I would not want to assume. Please clarify.


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## PaperClip (Jan 28, 2008)

Mahalialee4 said:


> I trust that because someone "questions church doctrines" they are not automatically considered to be "persons who have never tithed, "...not "believers", "not in a right relationship with God" but just "everybody else". It is interesting how you break down free will offering and tithing, which implies free will givers only praise God and do not worship Him. So are you implying....when "free will" giving is done NOT under compulsion, but JUST AS EACH HAS DETERMINED IN THEIR HEART...out of humility, thankfulness, fully recognizing that all their blessings come from God, and joyfully relish their relationship with Him, and to further the interests of the Kingdom of God, giving what HE has laid on their heart as to where and to whom,... unless they give the pastor a regulated 10 per cent to the "pastor's church, they are not worshipping God and He is not satisfied with them? Very interesting. That is how I understood your statements. Is this what you were directly or indirectly conveying. Do you assume that about me, since I am sure you have read my posts re: tithing. I would not want to assume. Please clarify.


 
Honey, I have not read your posts so carefully as to single you out. In the last week, I have read and posted in a number of threads on tithing and so there's a lot of criss-cross going on. I graciously encourage you to read through this entire thread to get some insight about my humble points regarding tithing. I direct you this way not to dismiss your inquiries, but to sincerely share that from what you ask here, I have addressed at some point in an earlier post. However, I do welcome your questions or any request for clarifications after your perusal of this thread.

Peace....


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## Mahalialee4 (Jan 28, 2008)

nvybeauty said:


> tithing seems to be the only hot topic on this forum.
> 
> my two cents....
> 
> ...



Do you think the facts about " the stupendous salaries, not to mention the monies taken in free will offerings and the lavish life styles" that even the covetous world is publishing, not to mention many pastors are condemning" should just be hushed up because it is "gossip"? My other question: Why when serious mess is going on in the world, many Christians are the first to denounce it! When it happens with the Church it is "gossip!" In reference to "rumors", do you consider questioning questionable doctrines as taught in "Christian" churches to fit into that category? I am not sure in which context that liner "Christians enabling gossipers to destroy the church"  came from. I guess that is another topic or if "gross misconduct and questionable stewardship of the finances" is going on in churches that are demanding a ritual tithe and Christians address it, do you consider them enabling gossipers. If the church is being destroyed by greed, immorality, and false representation of Jesus Christ, are you saying that "If no one talked about what is going on...it would not have happened or be happening?" Note: I am not referring to "rumors " that are false, but accounts that are "true". I think that the accountability of those who are "creating the scandals" needs to be addressed on this issue. It was certainly handled that way in the Scriptures..."rebuked before all onlookers!" ...remove the wicked man from among yourselves!"...that would hardly be a secret, right?


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## PaperClip (Jan 28, 2008)

Came across this link just now:

http://www.willowspringchurch.org/site/dbpage.asp?page_id=4190&sec_id=2834

*What Does The Bible Say About...*

*Tithes and Offerings?*

In the Bible we find that God clearly outlines for us what it means to be good stewards of our resources.  Colossians 1:18 states that Jesus wants to come to have, 1st place in every area of our lives, and this includes our finances.  
What is a “tithe?”  Literally, a tithe means, “one tenth.”

“Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse...and test Me now
in this, says the Lord of Hosts…” -_Malachi 3:10_

​Throughout the Bible, God tells us that we are to give Him one tenth of our income (Genesis 28:22; Malachi 3:10; Matthew 23:23; Hebrews 7:2; etc.).  Is there a difference between a “tithe, and an “offering?”  Yes, there clearly is.  In addition to tithing, the Bible mentions offerings such as, “freewill offerings,” “personal contributions,” and “sacrificial giving” as other means by which we can worship the Lord (see Deuteronomy 12:17; Mark 12:42).  The difference between tithes and offerings is that offerings are intended to be a personal, private (see Matthew 6:1), transaction between the giver and the Lord, according to the prompting of the Holy Spirit.  In contrast, the tithe is not optional.  Jesus said, “You should tithe” (see Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42).  God said, 

“Honor the Lord from your wealth and from the first of all your produce
so that your barns may be filled with plenty, and your vats overflowing…” -_Proverbs 3:9-10_

​*Why should I give tithes and offerings, and why is tithing not considered optional?  *
The first reason is, JESUS SAID WE SHOULD! (see Matthew 23:23).  The second and most practical reason might best be described by another question:  “Do you want your finances under the authority of the “Devourer,” or the “Abundant giver?” (see Malachi 3:10-11).

You see, the Bible clearly teaches that if you “bring the WHOLE tithe to the Lord, He will, “rebuke the devourer!”  Further, the Bible says that as a result of honoring the Lord with our finances, “...my God shall supply all of your needs according to His riches in glory in Christ Jesus.” (see Philippians 4:19).  However, if we don’t honor the Lord with our finances then we give authority over to the devourer, who then has permission to destroy and steal from us (see John 10:10).  

*Is God really so concerned about your money?  *
|No, He’s concerned about your heart.

“...For where your treasure is there will your heart be also.”
              -see Matthew 6:19-21

​*But I thought that, “tithing” only applied to Old  Testament giving?  *
As we have seen, this is not the case.  Tithing is specifically mentioned three times in the New Testament.(Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42; Hebrews 7:2).  Additionally, Jesus specifically affirmed tithing as something that should be done.  Beyond that, Colossians 1:18 challenges us to place Jesus FIRST, above all else, in EVERYTHING that we do.  Romans 15:4 tells us that the Old Testament was written for our instruction.  Jesus told us that He did not come to take away the Law or the prophets, but to fulfill (see Matthew 5:17-20).  Jesus brought clarification, correction and adjustment to many things… but not to tithing.

*How can I assure  God’s abundant blessing for me and my family?*
#1.  God says, “Honor the Lord from your wealth and from the first of all your produce” (Proverbs 3:9).  A big question among Christians today is whether or not we should tithe based on our gross or net income.  Well, according to the Bible, God is to be honored first, even ahead of the government.  This means we tithe on our gross income.
#2.  God says, “Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse” (see Malachi 3:9).  To assure God’s abundant blessing in the area of finances we must bring the WHOLE tithe.  Not 9%, not a tithe on the net income...but the WHOLE tithe.  In reference to this Nehemiah further states, “The first fruits of all the fruit of every tree to the house of the Lord” (see Nehemiah 10:35).  This means that we tithe on ALL income that we receive.  This includes not only the money which we make on our jobs, but things such as inheritances, alimony checks, honorariums, financial gifts and profits made from such things as stocks and the sales of our homes and property.  Tithing on all income literally means that we tithe on all that comes in!

“Now this I say, he who sows sparingly shall reap sparingly; and he who sows bountifully
Shall also reap bountifully, for God loves a CHEERFUL GIVER.”  -_2 Corinthians 9:7-8_

​*Where do I give my tithes? *
You should present your tithes to wherever your, “storehouse,” is.  Whatever you consider to be, “The house of the Lord.”(see Nehemiah 10:35).  For most, this will be the local church in which they worship.  However, It cannot be definitively concluded that tithes must solely go to the local church.  What we do know for sure is that the, “tithe” is the vehicle that God has chosen by which to support his, “priests,” those whom God has chosen to, “labor in the word” as an occupation.  When Paul said, “The Lord has directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel” (1 Corinthians 9:14), he was commenting on the way in which the Levitical priesthood was sustained.  1 Corinthians 9:9 is a quotation from Deuteronomy 25:4, “You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing.”  Paul also used Deuteronomy 25:4 in support of his claim that they who labor in the word are worthy of, “double honor” (see 1 Timothy 5:17-18).  Perhaps most significantly is, “How” you give the tithe.  It is to be presented as, “unto the Lord” with no strings attached, expecting no tangible benefit. 

*Where do I give my offerings?  *
Wherever the Lord directs you to give.  This is between you and the Lord, and the individual, church or organization to which you contribute.
“Not that I seek the gift itself, but I seek for the profit that
that increases to your account.” -_Philippians 4:19_


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## Nice & Wavy (Jan 28, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Came across this link just now:
> 
> http://www.willowspringchurch.org/site/dbpage.asp?page_id=4190&sec_id=2834
> 
> ...


 
Thank you, RR....this clarified some things for me that had nothing to do with tithing.


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## Mahalialee4 (Jan 28, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Honey, I have not read your posts so carefully as to single you out. In the last week, I have read and posted in a number of threads on tithing and so there's a lot of criss-cross going on. I graciously encourage you to read through this entire thread to get some insight about my humble points regarding tithing. I direct you this way not to dismiss your inquiries, but to sincerely share that from what you ask here, I have addressed at some point in an earlier post. However, I do welcome your questions or any request for clarifications after your perusal of this thread.
> 
> Peace....



Originally Posted by Mahalialee4  
I trust that because someone "questions church doctrines" they are not automatically considered to be "persons who have never tithed, "...not "believers", "not in a right relationship with God" but just "everybody else". It is interesting how you break down free will offering and tithing, which implies free will givers only praise God and do not worship Him. So are you implying....when "free will" giving is done NOT under compulsion, but JUST AS EACH HAS DETERMINED IN THEIR HEART...out of humility, thankfulness, fully recognizing that all their blessings come from God, and joyfully relish their relationship with Him, and to further the interests of the Kingdom of God, giving what HE has laid on their heart as to where and to whom,... unless they give the pastor a regulated 10 per cent to the "pastor's church, they are not worshipping God and He is not satisfied with them? Very interesting. That is how I understood your statements. Is this what you were directly or indirectly conveying. Do you assume that about me, since I am sure you have read my posts re: tithing. I would not want to assume. Please clarify.

I have been following the threads carefully as I consider this to be a topic of concern to me and many other believers who have tithed, or not tithed according to the ritualistic 10 percent tithing as practiced in many churches and are in good deep covenant relationship with God and are being blessed . My clarification that I wanted from you is directly regarding your quote: which I have posted below: Quote:
Originally Posted by RelaxerRehab  
It's not a point of comparison between the two. Every believer has free will to give. Every believer has free will to tithe. What might be thought-provoking for those who have yet to tithe is the witness and testimony from the Bible and from tithers in this thread that there comes a...oh, help me out here tithers... a covenant relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ...a deeper form of worship unto the Lord....

Think about it this way: Everybody can praise the Lord. But only BELIEVERS can WORSHIP the Lord. Why? Because there's a different form of relationship that happens between "real" believers and everybody else. So it is the distinction between "freewill giving" and tithing.

Freewill giving = praise; tithing = worship 

I personally do not confuse believing in God, serving God, worshipping God, having fellowship with God and other believers with going to a church building and putting in a monthly tithe and being on a church building membership role (that being for the sole purpose that that pastor's "ministry" can claim tax exemption on the money given) I believe that the body of believers are the Church. I also believe that every doctrine taught by the churches needs to thoroughly pass the scrutiny of believers through the eyes of the Scriptures and with the direction of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, we can fall into error and tradition without being aware of it, just as the Israelites and Pharisees did. When we are taught things we need to be like the Beroeans who were examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things we are taught are true. Thank you for taking the time to answer and I appreciate your comments.


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## TrustMeLove (Jan 28, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Came across this link just now:
> 
> http://www.willowspringchurch.org/site/dbpage.asp?page_id=4190&sec_id=2834
> 
> ...




Thank you. This put some solid scripture behind things that I naturally felt, but couldn't explain in my own words effectively. Especially about the tithe not being optional and being something sooo very personal. Not the same as just giving to a good cause.


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## PaperClip (Jan 28, 2008)

Mahalialee4 said:


> Originally Posted by Mahalialee4
> I trust that because someone "questions church doctrines" they are not automatically considered to be "persons who have never tithed, "...not "believers", "not in a right relationship with God" but just "everybody else". It is interesting how you break down free will offering and tithing, which implies free will givers only praise God and do not worship Him. So are you implying....when "free will" giving is done NOT under compulsion, but JUST AS EACH HAS DETERMINED IN THEIR HEART...out of humility, thankfulness, fully recognizing that all their blessings come from God, and joyfully relish their relationship with Him, and to further the interests of the Kingdom of God, giving what HE has laid on their heart as to where and to whom,... unless they give the pastor a regulated 10 per cent to the "pastor's church, they are not worshipping God and He is not satisfied with them? Very interesting. That is how I understood your statements. Is this what you were directly or indirectly conveying. Do you assume that about me, since I am sure you have read my posts re: tithing. I would not want to assume. Please clarify.
> 
> I have been following the threads carefully as I consider this to be a topic of concern to me and many other believers who have tithed, or not tithed according to the ritualistic 10 percent tithing as practiced in many churches and are in good deep covenant relationship with God and are being blessed . My clarification that I wanted from you is directly regarding your quote: which I have posted below: Quote:
> ...


 
Again, I direct you to review my posts in this thread because I have addressed the statements you have made therein. I am open to responding to specific questions versus being provoked into an ambiguous exchange.


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## Mahalialee4 (Jan 28, 2008)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Thank you, RR....this clarified some things for me that had nothing to do with tithing.


Where do I give my tithes? 
Quote From Nice and Wavy)You should present your tithes to wherever your, “storehouse,” is. Whatever you consider to be, “The house of the Lord.”(see Nehemiah 10:35). For most, this will be the local church in which they worship. However, It cannot be definitively concluded that tithes must solely go to the local church. What we do know for sure is that the, “tithe” is the vehicle that God has chosen by which to support his, “priests,” those whom God has chosen to, “labor in the word” as an occupation. When Paul said, “The Lord has directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel” (1 Corinthians 9:14), he was commenting on the way in which the Levitical priesthood was sustained. 1 Corinthians 9:9 is a quotation from Deuteronomy 25:4, “You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing.” Paul also used Deuteronomy 25:4 in support of his claim that they who labor in the word are worthy of, “double honor” (see 1 Timothy 5:17-18). Perhaps most significantly is, “How” you give the tithe. It is to be presented as, “unto the Lord” with no strings attached, expecting no tangible benefit.

This is directed to you as a pastor.
I appreciated some of the points you made. I appreciate that it was not pushing the "you have to give to the church at.....address....no if ands or buts. However, I asked in another thread, this question: Is not every believer called as part of the Church to be a "kingdom of kings and priests" according to Scripture"... And if so, how do we have a 2 tiered set up in the Church. I understand about what is referred to as the five fold ministry...but is not every male believer the priest in his home? So are priests paying tithes to priests? Are the pastors being equated to "priests" in the Old Testament and does that make the rest of the body the "laity", like in the Catholic Church? I will look for my post on this and repost it here as I would appreciate hearing your thoughts in this.
"The Lord has directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel” (1 Corinthians 9:14), 

Since Pastors have been placed in the body...I recognize that not every pastor is greedy, or misrepresenting Christ or His body. So please do not take my questions or statements personally when I direct them to you. However you can answer from that perspective personally. I appreciate your comments.
...Those who question the tithing taking place probably would not even be concerned except for the extensive abuses and gross mismanagment of stewards that are taking place. It is interesting that Paul chose to get a job and felt that it was necessary for him to preach the gospel whether he got "paid" for it or not. Do you think that there would be less pastors if they did not get a tax free salary and tax free "free will offerings? "Not muzzling" can not be used to justify what is happening in some ministries. And is the muzzle talking about money or shutting up the true Word of God that is to flow. I know that is the commentary link quote, but commentaries are not the inspired Word of God. And if is talking about allowing the ox or the pastor to eat, an ox eats for one, not for 10! If a person sits down to a table and keeps shovelling in the food until it is running out of his mouth and his stomach is hurting is a greedy person and for greedy persons they never get enough! That sight literally  would be disgusting and shocking and that is why some question the greed they are observing and question whether some use the Word of God to manipulate people out of excessive amounts of money. I am sure you understand their concerns. Nice to have a pastor posting!
Here are my questions from an earlier post!
I am curious. I am sorry that you felt insulted by being asked if you had read these Scriptures and you specifically felt insulted because of as you stated: "your position as a pastor".
I would like to ask you a question, trusting you will not be offended, about one of the Scriptures that you posted, specifically, Galatians 6:6 and in brackets beside it you have typed (Support Financially those who teach you the word of God). Now to be fair, I am going to check out different translations, but the one I am reading from is a King James Version which reads: "Let him that is taught in the word COMMUNICATE unto him that teacheth in all good things." So I am wondering where money comes into this Scripture specifically. Another King James version reads: "Let him who is taught with the word share in all good things with him who teaches." If this is talking about money and financial (monetary) support, what are your thoughts on Paul choosing to support himself with his own hands rather than burden believers? I understand some pastors do not take a 10 percent tithe or demand it. But so many make it all about getting money and that is the only form of "sharing" that they are interested in receiving. As a pastor, if I came to you and stated my reasons and questioned the 10 per cent obligatory regulated tithing of church members, as practiced by many pastors, how would you feel toward me? How would this be handled in your church? I am hoping that you will not be offended that I did not pm you. I believe pastors are part of the body of Christ, I do not know you on a personal level so hoping that as one member to another I could ask you this as it is about doctrine, and not personal private matters and you publicly posted these Scripures. I would really appreciate an answer from you from your heart and not from your position, as I am not attacking your position. In good faith I ask You these questions on this powerful doctrinal issue because I understand, hopefully correctly, that you are a pastor, right? Finally, if the gift of Salvation and the Word of God is free, why are we being charged to pay money for someone to preach a Free gospel of good news to us? And if some pastors choose to live beyond their means, why should Christians have to pay salary money to be in God's good graces? Do Pastors ( who often state from the pulpit, " I have a word for you this morning from God"...do they receive the Word that they preach on Sundays freely from God or did He charge them? If they receive freely, should they not "share" as the Scriptures say "give freely?" The Free invitation given in Isaiah Chapter 55:1 has always blessed me..."to come buy and eat without money without price.." and Revelation 22: 17..."And the Spirit and the Bride say 'Come'... and let him that heareth say 'Come' ...and let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely". That was the love of God that drew me. What are your thoughts about this, because the blatant emphasis on "money" particularly in the "prosperity and seed teachings" and the sense of entitlement to lavish lifestyles by some has always puzzled me and turned me off.


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## Nice & Wavy (Jan 28, 2008)

Mahalialee...I did not quote this below. I assume you want to ask the person who posted it.



Mahalialee4 said:


> Where do I give my tithes?
> Quote From Nice and Wavy)You should present your tithes to wherever your, “storehouse,” is. Whatever you consider to be, “The house of the Lord.”(see Nehemiah 10:35). For most, this will be the local church in which they worship. However, It cannot be definitively concluded that tithes must solely go to the local church. What we do know for sure is that the, “tithe” is the vehicle that God has chosen by which to support his, “priests,” those whom God has chosen to, “labor in the word” as an occupation. When Paul said, “The Lord has directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel” (1 Corinthians 9:14), he was commenting on the way in which the Levitical priesthood was sustained. 1 Corinthians 9:9 is a quotation from Deuteronomy 25:4, “You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing.” Paul also used Deuteronomy 25:4 in support of his claim that they who labor in the word are worthy of, “double honor” (see 1 Timothy 5:17-18). Perhaps most significantly is, “How” you give the tithe. It is to be presented as, “unto the Lord” with no strings attached, expecting no tangible benefit.
> 
> This is directed to you as a pastor.
> ...


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## Mahalialee4 (Jan 28, 2008)

alexstin said:


> The widow isn't recognized because she gave only 2 coins she is recognized because she gave all that she had and by doing so honored God  just as much as  those who put in money out of their surplus.
> 
> Sometimes people give when it "hurts". Giving when it stretches you financially is not a bad thing.



Exactly! And especially as those were some wicked priests!


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## Mahalialee4 (Jan 28, 2008)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Mahaliee, here are the answers to your previous questions:
> 
> I am curious. I am sorry that you felt insulted by being asked if you had read these Scriptures and you specifically felt insulted because of as you stated: "your position as a pastor". Yes, it was insulting because the person you are referring to, asked if I studied what I wrote...and of course I did. If I said to you in a post..."is that your real hair or did you glue it on." wouldn't you be insulted?
> 
> ...


 The Lord desires for us to prosper and be in health, even as our soul prospers. As we study the Word of God, we see that there are many references to helping the people in ministry, even as I have stated in a previous post. Yes, salvation is free...but there is a cost to take care of the ministry and that most certainly includes money. 

I can't tell you why some people who are pastors/ministers do the things they do. I can't speak for them...so the ones you know, you can ask them and let them give you an answer as to why. I simply don't know.

What I do know is that we all will have to go before the Lord in that day, and then we will know in part. I am just doing what the Lord has told me to do, and I do it with all of my heart.

Thank you for posting.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for responding to every question and I have asked some pastors and they hit the roof even when asked politely. I was not raised in the "church" and I had lots of questions and got "spiritually" beaten for daring to question anything and they were very coldly dismissive. Were it not for my heart longing for God and coming to know Him personally, they would have stumbled me completely. And this from several denominations. I would have appreciated to have gotten the civil, Christian non condescending answer that you gave me today.  True pastors (those called and placed by God) I believe are not threatened by questions. 
About the charging to hear the Word: That was exactly how I saw it when I would go into a church and before the Word was even given, they were passing the baskets up and down the isles under people's noses to believers and nonbelievers! as well. For some their very first visit to a church and it left a bad taste in many a mouth and it reinforced some deep stereotypes about the Christians and the Pastors. Then later it would be a call for Tithes and Offerings....then the building fund and the Mission fund etc. etc. People came to hear the Word. It would have been better if they had placed a contribution box at the back like the JW's. No bucket, net passing under people's noses.
Thank you.


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## Mahalialee4 (Jan 28, 2008)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Mahalialee...I did not quote this below.  I assume you want to ask the person who posted it.



Actually, I wanted you to answer. I appreciate your posts. On those specific questions I wanted your thoughts on this especially re: levitical priests...are they saying that's who pastors are today a successor to the priesthood? Being a pastor, you would probably be knowledgeable, rather than ask someone else what a pastor thinks. If you don't mind, then could you comment on my questions rather than the quotes instead. Thank you again.


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## Nice & Wavy (Jan 28, 2008)

Mahalialee4 said:


> The Lord desires for us to prosper and be in health, even as our soul prospers. As we study the Word of God, we see that there are many references to helping the people in ministry, even as I have stated in a previous post. Yes, salvation is free...but there is a cost to take care of the ministry and that most certainly includes money.
> 
> I can't tell you why some people who are pastors/ministers do the things they do. I can't speak for them...so the ones you know, you can ask them and let them give you an answer as to why. I simply don't know.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you for responding to every question and I have asked some pastors and they hit the roof even when asked politely. I was not raised in the "church" and I had lots of questions and got "spiritually" beaten for daring to question anything and they were very coldly dismissive. Were it not for my heart longing for God and coming to know Him personally, they would have stumbled me completely. And this from several denominations. *



I would have appreciated to have gotten the civil, Christian non condescending answer that you gave me today[/QUOTE]

Click to expand...

*


> . True pastors (those called and placed by God) I believe are not threatened by questions.
> About the charging to hear the Word: That was exactly how I saw it when I would go into a church and before the Word was even given, they were passing the baskets up and down the isles under people's noses to believers and nonbelievers! as well. For some their very first visit to a church and it left a bad taste in many a mouth and it reinforced some deep stereotypes about the Christians and the Pastors. Then later it would be a call for Tithes and Offerings....then the building fund and the Mission fund etc. etc. People came to hear the Word. It would have been better if they had placed a contribution box at the back like the JW's. No bucket, net passing under people's noses.
> Thank you.


 
I do appreciate what you said here.  It just confirms some things for me.  Thank you.

It really sounds to me like you had some real, tough experiences within the churches you have been too.  My prayer is that as you continue to grow and trust God's leading in your life, that you would put aside every weight...because it can easily weigh you down.  I'm not saying for you to stop asking questions, but I would want you to heal from the hurts of the past, and really move on.  Anything I can do to help you in this area, please pm me...I would be more than welcome to help with anything that I am able too.

Blessings to you, Mahalaliee!


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## Mahalialee4 (Jan 28, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Again, I direct you to review my posts in this thread because I have addressed the statements you have made therein. I am open to responding to specific questions versus being provoked into an ambiguous exchange.


Hi. Actually I was not wanting an ambiguous exchange nor should you feel provoked. 
I was hoping that you would just give a simple,
      " No or Yes I was or was not assuming that it was people who are not believers, worshippers or have not experienced the joy of tithing is why they are raising all these questions and so they do not understand my (your)convictions" kind of answer." 

And if you were assuming, I would only have replied that this is not necessarily the case for many who are questioning. No more would need to be exchanged about it. Rather than make an accusation or draw a false assumption as to what your statement meant...I chose to ask. Hope this helps.


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## Nice & Wavy (Jan 28, 2008)

Mahalialee4 said:


> Actually, I wanted you to answer. I appreciate your posts. On those specific questions I wanted your thoughts on this especially re: levitical priests...are they saying that's who pastors are today a successor to the priesthood? You should understand that the role of the pastor mirrors somewhat the role of the levitical priests, in that their call is the same...to minister to the people by bringing
> God's word and help them as they are needed in their everyday life, which salvation is the main goal.  Many are called to the be a pastor, but few are chosen.  Not everyone who has a church building is a "Pastor".  There are people who have been ordained:Elders, Apostles, Prophets, Deacons who have churches.  I know of a church who the husband is the Apostle of the church and his wife is the Pastor and she is the one that handles the pastors responsibilites.  There are so many different functions in the church, and it is so needed, especially in these last days.
> 
> Being a pastor, you would probably be knowledgeable, rather than ask someone else what a pastor thinks. If you don't mind, then could you comment on my questions rather than the quotes instead. Thank you again.


 Although I understand what your statement here is saying, I would'nt say that because I'm a pastor that I'm more knowledgeable then what someone on this forum might think about.  There are women on this forum that can move into the office of a pastor right now, because their heart is in the right place, and because I see their fruit.  I don't think anyone of us is better than the other, so I wouldn't discount their thoughts or quotes more than I would want anyone to discount mine.  

On that note, I will answer your questions the best I can, but I still know that there are women here who can do a better job of answering these questions than I can...and that is the truth, even if it is to know what a pastor may think....


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## Mahalialee4 (Jan 28, 2008)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Thank you for responding to every question and I have asked some pastors and they hit the roof even when asked politely. I was not raised in the "church" and I had lots of questions and got "spiritually" beaten for daring to question anything and they were very coldly dismissive. Were it not for my heart longing for God and coming to know Him personally, they would have stumbled me completely. And this from several denominations. *
> 
> I do appreciate what you said here.  It just confirms some things for me.  Thank you.
> 
> ...


*



Nice & Wavy said:



			Thank you for responding to every question and I have asked some pastors and they hit the roof even when asked politely. I was not raised in the "church" and I had lots of questions and got "spiritually" beaten for daring to question anything and they were very coldly dismissive. Were it not for my heart longing for God and coming to know Him personally, they would have stumbled me completely. And this from several denominations. 

I do appreciate what you said here.  It just confirms some things for me.  Thank you.

It really sounds to me like you had some real, tough experiences within the churches you have been too.  My prayer is that as you continue to grow and trust God's leading in your life, that you would put aside every weight...because it can easily weigh you down.  I'm not saying for you to stop asking questions, but I would want you to heal from the hurts of the past, and really move on.  Anything I can do to help you in this area, please pm me...I would be more than welcome to help with anything that I am able too.

Blessings to you, Mahalaliee!

Click to expand...



Thank you. My faith is sound. I just wanted to clarify that many other people have questions and are afraid to ask and move through their Christian life in doubt, uncertainty and unbelief on many things.  Many are stumbled and need to be restored. That is why these posts on the "tithing doctrines that are already "out there " in the world for the wrong reasons, (abuse of position and the Word of God) need to be Scripturally examined or clarified, not only for believers but for unbelievers. Those experiences took my eyes off following man. I do believe Ephesians 4:11-15. I was on solid 9 month bed rest carrying my second child when the Holy Spirit began to draw me. Miraculously my baby lived. I used to read my Bible daily for hours during those months and God really became real and ministered to me. I knew nothing about Christianity and so I went looking for answers and experienced those things. It happened. I do not let it affect my belief and trust in God. I have moved on from the experience. But many are being stumbled surrounding this tithing issue today and the Church has to step up to the plate and share, clarify and testify. We overcome by the blood of the lamb and by our testimony!*


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## Mahalialee4 (Jan 28, 2008)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Although I understand what your statement here is saying, I would'nt say that because I'm a pastor that I'm more knowledgeable then what someone on this forum might think about.  There are women on this forum that can move into the office of a pastor right now, because their heart is in the right place, and because I see their fruit.  I don't think anyone of us is better than the other, so I wouldn't discount their thoughts or quotes more than I would want anyone to discount mine.
> 
> On that note, I will answer your questions the best I can, but I still know that there are women here who can do a better job of answering these questions than I can...and that is the truth, even if it is to know what a pastor may think....



I agree. I have been asking some strong questions and making some strong statements throughout. I do not discount anyone. Nonetheless, it is good to hear your perspective since you already serve in that position.
Your answer: Thank you. I agree. Okay you have satisfied my questions in your answers below. Thank you. Nice talking with you.

((You should understand that the role of the pastor mirrors somewhat the role of the levitical priests, in that their call is the same...to minister to the people by bringing 
God's word and help them as they are needed in their everyday life, which salvation is the main goal. Many are called to the be a pastor, but few are chosen. Not everyone who has a church building is a "Pastor". There are people who have been ordained:Elders, Apostles, Prophets, Deacons who have churches. I know of a church who the husband is the Apostle of the church and his wife is the Pastor and she is the one that handles the pastors responsibilites. There are so many different functions in the church, and it is so needed, especially in these last days.))


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## Mahalialee4 (Jan 28, 2008)

TrustMeLove said:


> Now you speaking a word. That's how I feel. I am compelled. It's just what I have to do. It's what I am called to do.  It's hard to explain it. But, it's really not a choice.
> 
> Yes, in the past I have felt guilty when I spent all of God's money up on making sure I look good or I have the nice things in life, but have neglected my duty as an ambassador of Christ. That's where my guilt comes from. I can't even call it guilt, but the Holy Spirit be on a sistah..like uh uh I'm not having it.



I believe one should be led by the Holy Spirit when it comes to giving and not dictated to for selfish reasons by man. Now that's what I'm talkin bout!


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## kbragg (Jan 28, 2008)

Ok, see, now I see when ya'll start spittin' dem der words that I need to look up it's time for me to bow out!

So my final statement is this: I don't know about all that stuff, all I know is ever since I've been tithing the Lord has met our every need over and above what we've expected! Try it, you'll like it.


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## Mahalialee4 (Jan 28, 2008)

Shimmie said:


> Precious Wavy, I've been there. I was in Church not just to sit and 'eat up the word', but I was there in the ministry of helps doing all that I could to be a blessing in the House of the Lord. Too many think that they are actually doing God a favor just by getting up and walking through the Church doors and sitting in the Pews.
> 
> They peel off their 'onenth' (1/10th of the Tithe); leave Church and go out to the Golden Coral, Red Lobster, IHop, spend a fortune, go to a movie, Blockbuster..........Ummmm, shop at Target, Walmart, Marshalls, whatever.
> 
> ...



This part of your quote:
"But it works both ways, here. God designed a support system for all to benefit, but all have to cooperate..."
I agree. I agree that things should be done His way and not man's way.


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## Nice & Wavy (Jan 28, 2008)

Mahalialee4 said:


> Thank you. My faith is sound. I just wanted to clarify that *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I want to say this regarding the quoted (then I'm going to bed) that there are many, many people who need to be saved and to be restored by re-dedicating their lives back to God. The bible explicitly speaks about salvation and what our role as believers ought to be in this hour. Although we may find a controversial topic here and there, the weighter matters are the *souls of man, and all of us have been given this mandate to make sure that we pull them out of the fire*. This is an area I don't find talked about much here on this forum and it would be a wonderful thing to have as many posts in a thread such as that, just as the one we have been discussing over the past few days.

In the book of Acts we read that as everyone (in the church) were in one accord, the Lord added daily to the church, such as should be saved. There were thousands of people getting saved daily...we need to mirror that in the churches in America and around the world, and in the LHCF Christianity Forum too.

I just wanted to share that.

May you be blessed.


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## Mahalialee4 (Jan 28, 2008)

QUOTE=Shimmie;3638783]I KNOW it's a 'pull' upon your life and energies.  It's work and not easy work.  It's a joy and an honor to be a Pastor, Minister, but it's work. 

With all of our hearts, no one is being 'attacked' for the choices they've made to Tithe or not to Tithe.  But when I saw it mentioned in a post above that the Gospel is Free, it had to be corrected.   For even the Bible from which the Gospel is ministered, was paid for by someone.  

What bothers me is that 'we' will pay out our monies to merchants and companies every single day who could care less about us and continue to make them rich (such as household items, credit card interest, shifty car dealers, dirty restaurants (you know what happens in restaurants), and yet not give God our best to keep the work of His going.[/QUOTE]

This quote:
But when I saw it mentioned in a post above 

"that the Gospel is Free, it had to be corrected."   For even the Bible from which the Gospel is ministered, was paid for by someone."

Actually I posted saying that for one. My specific point as you probably noted in my posts had to do with unreasonable demands for support, from  a "wicked steward", and BINDING up heavy burdens on people. Some pastors do not do this. Some "pastors" do this.

But Salvation is free! The Word of God is Free! Jesus did not charge for one of the greatest sermons given.  ( Sermon on the Mount,) speaking in the temple, teaching the disciples, denouncing the apostate Scribes and Pharisees! Philp the Evangelizer and the Ethiopian eunich. Acquilla and Pricilla witnessing to Saul/Paul, and all the books of the Old Testament and The New Testament. The writers...None of them received a dime for the writing down and the subsequent printing of the Words God put in their mouths. I personally do not think Bibles should be sold for profit! It would be nice if some of tithes went to provide Bibles to those who would like one and do not have one.

This does not mean that I live in a bubble, unaware of financial needs and the way things are done in this economy and that there are needs by Pastors and Christians in general. We should care for one another and none should be in want in the body. Now everything has $$$$a price on it's head. What would happen if the congregation got together and filled the pastor's freezer a couple of times a year. Wouldn't that be wonderful?
In regarding to the Word!
But when God gave it, it was FREE. He did not charge us. He gave us His Son, The Word and the promise of eternal life and we did not pay Him to do that. It was given because God loved us, and what we give should be given out of love and thankfulness for what God has done in our lives and just because He is God and the love of God in us compels us to give.


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## Mahalialee4 (Jan 29, 2008)

Nice & Wavy said:


> I want to say this regarding the quoted (then I'm going to bed) that there are many, many people who need to be saved and to be restored by re-dedicating their lives back to God. The bible explicitly speaks about salvation and what our role as believers ought to be in this hour. Although we may find a controversial topic here and there, the weighter matters are the *souls of man, and all of us have been given this mandate to make sure that we pull them out of the fire*. This is an area I don't find talked about much here on this forum and it would be a wonderful thing to have as many posts in a thread such as that, just as the one we have been discussing over the past few days.
> 
> In the book of Acts we read that as everyone (in the church) were in one accord, the Lord added daily to the church, such as should be saved. There were thousands of people getting saved daily...we need to mirror that in the churches in America and around the world, and in the LHCF Christianity Forum too.
> 
> ...



I agree about the Great Commission mandate and I would welcome a thread about this cause Church "growth" is too often just people changing churches. Nite!


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## Southernbella. (Jan 29, 2008)

> *Why should I give tithes and offerings, and why is tithing not considered optional?
> *The first reason is, JESUS SAID WE SHOULD! (see Matthew 23:23). The second and most practical reason might best be described by another question: “Do you want your finances under the authority of the “Devourer,” or the “Abundant giver?” (see Malachi 3:10-11).


 
Just to clarify...it's important, when we read scripture, to know the context. Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees, who were still under Mosaic Law, about tithing. 

Jesus never collected a tithe, and Jesus never paid a tithe, and Jesus never asked his disciples to tithe, and if he did, it is not recorded in the Bible or any other historical source. I think it's misleading to say that Jesus told us we should, when that is definitely not what the scripture was about.

I thought this was interesting from a historical perspective; the tithe was originally instituted in the Christian church not as worship, but for fundraising:

In the fourth century, the Roman Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity. Prior to Constantine’s conversion, Christianity was illegal and, as discussed above, churches met secretly in homes with part-time leaders who had other sources of income. After his conversion, Constantine made Christianity both legal and a status symbol causing the Church to expand rapidly. The Church moved out of homes and into buildings and employed full-time ministers, thus creating a much greater need for income. The New Catholic Encyclopedia's article on tithing nicely summarizes this situation and what happened next: 

"The early Church had no tithing system. The tithes of the Old Testament were regarded as abrogated by the law of Christ…..As the Church expanded, however, and its material needs grew more numerous and complex, it became necessary to adopt a definite rule to which people could be held either by a sense of moral obligation or by a precept of positive law. The tithing of the Old Law provided an obvious model and it began to be taught—more commonly in the West, however, than in the East—that the faithful should give tithes of their income. When the view began to get sufficient support, it found legislative expression. The Council of Macon in 585 ordered payment of tithes and threatened excommunication to those who refused to comply." 


At the Council of Macon, almost 600 years after Jesus' death, a council of bishops got together and decided to institute the tithe.


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## Mahalialee4 (Jan 29, 2008)

lauren450 said:


> Just to clarify...it's important, when we read scripture, to know the context. Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees, who were still under Mosaic Law, about tithing.
> 
> Jesus never collected a tithe, and Jesus never paid a tithe, and Jesus never asked his disciples to tithe, and if he did, it is not recorded in the Bible or any other historical source. I think it's misleading to say that Jesus told us we should, when that is definitely not what the scripture was about.
> 
> ...



True. This is regarding what I refer to as "ritualized demanded tax" based on greed and oppression. Satan always makes a counterfeit!


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## PaperClip (Jan 29, 2008)

Mahalialee4 said:


> Hi. Actually I was not wanting an ambiguous exchange nor should you feel provoked.
> I was hoping that you would just give a simple,
> " No or Yes I was or was not assuming that it was people who are not believers, worshippers or have not experienced the joy of tithing is why they are raising all these questions and so they do not understand my (your)convictions" kind of answer."
> 
> And if you were assuming, I would only have replied that this is not necessarily the case for many who are questioning. No more would need to be exchanged about it. Rather than make an accusation or draw a false assumption as to what your statement meant...I chose to ask. Hope this helps.


 
The sentiment of my posts have not come from an "assuming" place. I have incorporated biblical scriptures in my responses. I cannot measure anyone else's JOY in any aspect of their spiritual expressions, including tithing and/or giving. And I am CERTAINLY open to anybody asking questions. I will ask a question of anybody so we're not afraid of questions over here.

What seems to bubble to the surface about tithing is that it is a specific form of giving with special meaning for (Holy) Spirit filled believers and disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ. Tithing is a form of WORSHIP. The Word of God says that the Lord is seeking those who will worship Him in SPIRIT and in TRUTH. Also, one of the ultimate purposes of tithing is for us to PUT THE LORD FIRST in EVERYTHING, including our finances. Giving the Lord our FIRST and our BEST in our finances. It's not about giving it to the pastor. Tithing is unto the LORD. Yes, we tithe (for the most part) through our local church body, but it is unto the Lord. So even if the pastor is crooked, if the pastor decides to steal the money or torch it in a BBQ pit, for a "true" tither, tithing for the RIGHT reasons (to worship the Lord, put Him FIRST in EVERYTHING, including finances), that person can stand before God and declare that they OBEYED the Word of God, they did what they were supposed to do. 

I'll mention what Kbragg said: the principle of SOWING and REAPING is a UNIVERSAL principle. A person can flow in the principle of tithing (simply defined as giving the tenth) to whatever type of organization and because they SOWED, they will REAP. But the distinction is if they tithed as UNTO THE LORD or unto anything else OTHER THAN THE LORD. The Lord's not going to honor something that has nothing to do with Him, if a person didn't bring the Lord into their tithing.

Hopefully I made sense clear to be understood.


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## Shimmie (Jan 29, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> The sentiment of my posts have not come from an "assuming" place. I have incorporated biblical scriptures in my responses. I cannot measure anyone else's JOY in any aspect of their spiritual expressions, including tithing and/or giving. And I am CERTAINLY open to anybody asking questions. I will ask a question of anybody so we're not afraid of questions over here.
> 
> What seems to bubble to the surface about tithing is that it is a specific form of giving with special meaning for (Holy) Spirit filled believers and disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ. Tithing is a form of WORSHIP. The Word of God says that the Lord is seeking those who will worship Him in SPIRIT and in TRUTH. Also, one of the ultimate purposes of tithing is for us to PUT THE LORD FIRST in EVERYTHING, including our finances. Giving the Lord our FIRST and our BEST in our finances. It's not about giving it to the pastor. Tithing is unto the LORD. Yes, we tithe (for the most part) through our local church body, but it is unto the Lord. So even if the pastor is crooked, if the pastor decides to steal the money or torch it in a BBQ pit, for a "true" tither, tithing for the RIGHT reasons (to worship the Lord, put Him FIRST in EVERYTHING, including finances), that person can stand before God and declare that they OBEYED the Word of God, they did what they were supposed to do.
> 
> ...


 Very clear, indeed.  

RR, I admire the way you presented the information and carried the conversation in this thread.  You and Lauren, shared your views and handled your conversation very well.  

As always, you stood your ground, yet in humility and in love and without judgement of anyone.  

I've always 'loved' your style, no matter who disagrees, you have class, Lady.  You have class!  

Not my humble opinon...The Truth!


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## PaperClip (Jan 29, 2008)

lauren450 said:


> Just to clarify...it's important, when we read scripture, to know the context. Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees, who were still under Mosaic Law, about tithing.


 
And to reiterate, Jesus didn't UNDO the LAW. He FULFILLED the law and, according to Hebrews 7, He wrote the law on our hearts and in our minds because it wasn't UNDONE... we're still supposed to DO those things, those principles that the law was established to ENFORCE because the Israelites were "stiff-necked" so there had to be "punishment" attached to the law to keep them in line. But through Jesus Christ, He fulfilled the law and took the punishment/curse off the law/principles....


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## Nice & Wavy (Jan 29, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> And to reiterate, Jesus didn't UNDO the LAW. He FULFILLED the law and, according to Hebrews 7, He wrote the law on our hearts and in our minds because it wasn't UNDONE... we're still supposed to DO those things, those principles that the law was established to ENFORCE because the Israelites were "stiff-necked" so there had to be "punishment" attached to the law to keep them in line. But through Jesus Christ, He fulfilled the law and took the punishment/curse off the law/principles....


 
RR, I appreciate you and how you allow God to really use you.  You have such a gift...and it is evident in your posts.  I know that even if we never get to meet here on earth, we shall meet in Heaven, and on that day..I want to give you the biggest hug you have ever had and I will say "Thank You"  for being you.

Blessings...always!


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## Southernbella. (Jan 29, 2008)

Shimmie said:


> Very clear, indeed.
> 
> *RR, I admire the way you presented the information and carried the conversation in this thread. You and Lauren, shared your views and handled your conversation very well.*
> 
> ...


 
Thanks Shimmie! I agree, I told her that I really admire that about her. We may not always agree, but she is always up for explaining her views and having a healthy discussion. Not even just here, but in other forums too.


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## shalom (Jan 29, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> So...how does this apply to tithing, a form of GIVING TO THE LORD?
> 
> I think this ranks as one of the most overused, misinterpreted scriptures in the Word. *SO.  Most familiar scriptures are overused.  It's bibical .*
> 
> ...


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## shalom (Jan 29, 2008)

kbragg said:


> Wow. The Bible also says poverty is a CURSE. Also, you must look at the full Scripture in context. What was Jesus saying? He was saying that the rich who have their hope wrapped up in their riches will have a harder time getting into heaven than a camel through the eye of a needle. This scripture is almost as misquoted and pervert as "money is the root of all evil." It is a lie.
> 
> Here is what Matthew 19:16-26 actually says:
> 
> ...


 
Hello Darling,

This was just my sarcasm, no pun intended.  I definately believe that God's expectation is for us to have wealth.  But there's always so much controversy when it comes to giving and the church.  

I love your heart and spirit and I thank you for not proposing your question to me in a combative way.  :blowkiss:  Peace.


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## PaperClip (Jan 29, 2008)

shalom said:


> RelaxerRehab said:
> 
> 
> > So...how does this apply to tithing, a form of GIVING TO THE LORD?
> ...


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## shalom (Jan 29, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> shalom said:
> 
> 
> > Sincerely, I didn't get the point, which is why I asked how this applies to giving in general, and tithing in particular....
> ...


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## Shimmie (Jan 29, 2008)

lauren450 said:


> Thanks Shimmie! I agree, I told her that I really admire that about her. We may not always agree, but she is always up for explaining her views and having a healthy discussion. Not even just here, but in other forums too.


The two of you really blessed me the way you shared your hearts on this.


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## intellect_sensual (Jan 29, 2008)

I was just reading a little more on tithing and the Law etc... and what is said about it in the New Testamentr, since that teaches us Christians what we should do. This verse stood out to me, and felt like I should list it here.... 
*Galatians 5:3-4*
*3 *I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. *4 *You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified[1] by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
*Hebrew's 8:13*
13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
*Hebrew 7:12*
12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.
*Galatians 3:10 says*
10*All who rely on observing the law are under a curse*, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

There are many Chapter's in the New Testament that says over and over that after the death of Christ we are in a period of grace, and faith, and NOT under the Law. All I have been saying many times, is why do we just take that one thing from the Law and practice it? The bible has said over and over if you chose to still practice things undr the law (whether 1 or 2), you are under the Curse. Yes I understand that people do it because the bible said the should. But if you look closely you will see that the bible has also said that there is no longer the need for such things. The turth is if you want to argue FOR tithing you have to use Old Testament scriptures, and the OLD law to back it up. Hebrew 10:9 says 
9 then He said,</I> _“Behold, I have come to do Your will,_ _O God.”_[a]_ He takes away the first that He may establish the second. _


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## intellect_sensual (Jan 29, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> And to reiterate, Jesus didn't UNDO the LAW. He FULFILLED the law and, according to Hebrews 7, He wrote the law on our hearts and in our minds because it wasn't UNDONE... *we're still supposed to DO those things*, those principles that the law was established to ENFORCE because the Israelites were "stiff-necked" so there had to be "punishment" attached to the law to keep them in line. But through Jesus Christ, He fulfilled the law and took the punishment/curse off the law/principles....


 
With all due respect RR, this is not true, I have listed many scriptures above that states that we are *NOT *to practice things that were under the old law, and that if we do we place ourselves under the curse of the Old Law. Jesus cam,e to fulfil the Law you are right about that. He fulfilled it and made it obsolete. I am not saying this the Word says this (see my pp). If we are to keep the laws, are you doing everythng else under the law? If you are going to practice the laws you can't just pick and chose which one, you should do them all.


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## intellect_sensual (Jan 29, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> The sentiment of my posts have not come from an "assuming" place. I have incorporated biblical scriptures in my responses. I cannot measure anyone else's JOY in any aspect of their spiritual expressions, including tithing and/or giving. And I am CERTAINLY open to anybody asking questions. I will ask a question of anybody so we're not afraid of questions over here.
> 
> *What seems to bubble to the surface about tithing is that it is a specific form of giving with special meaning for (Holy) Spirit filled believers and disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ. Tithing is a form of WORSHIP. The Word of God says that the Lord is seeking those who will worship Him in SPIRIT and in TRUTH. Also, one of the ultimate purposes of tithing is for us to PUT THE LORD FIRST in EVERYTHING, including our finances. Giving the Lord our FIRST and our BEST in our finances. It's not about giving it to the pastor. Tithing is unto the LORD. Yes, we tithe (for the most part) through our local church body, but it is unto the Lord. So even if the pastor is crooked, if the pastor decides to steal the money or torch it in a BBQ pit, for a "true" tither, tithing for the RIGHT reasons (to worship the Lord, put Him FIRST in EVERYTHING, including finances), that person can stand before God and declare that they OBEYED the Word of God, they did what they were supposed to do. *
> 
> ...


 
My reply is mainly to the bolded. So are you saying that followers who tithe do so not because it is the law but because it shows a special relationship to God? I am a bit confused about that statement. I have said previosly that I think many see tithing as a blessing because it practices their faith in God. It is not of my opinion that it is because of just tithing, but the idea that you place behind it. You are moving in faith that because you are doing this God will bless you. It is more of the belief in God, than the actual tithing that is at work here.
Like I have said in my previous post the old Law no longer applies to us, and I have listed scriptures to back that up. We should put our emotional attachments for tithing aside to see the big picture here.


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## PaperClip (Jan 29, 2008)

intellect_sensual said:


> With all due respect RR, this is not true, I have listed many scriptures above that states that we are *NOT *to practice things that were under the old law, and that if we do we place ourselves under the curse of the Old Law. Jesus cam,e to fulfil the Law you are right about that. He fulfilled it and made it obsolete. I am not saying this the Word says this (see my pp). If we are to keep the laws, are you doing everythng else under the law? If you are going to practice the laws you can't just pick and chose which one, you should do them all.


 
I kindly refer to Hebrews 8:10 (NIV)

"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. *I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. *I will be their God, and they will be my people."

*Amplified Bible*
"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord:* I will imprint My laws upon their minds, even upon their innermost thoughts and understanding, and engrave them upon their hearts;* and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." 


He fulfilled the punishment that would take place for them (and us) when 
we would not fulfill the law by accident or on purpose. He did not UNDO the law, or else why would the Lord put the law in their/our minds and write them on our hearts? Not for just for fun! Everything the Lord God does is purposeful! He has the "law" in our minds and hearts so that we would continue to follow through on the principles/mandates, if you will, that He initially laid out. Recall that when the people disobeyed or did not follow the law, some of those laws meant that you had to be put to death! But because Jesus fulfilled the law, we are not put to death because He became the PERFECT SACRIFICE and we no longer have to do the animal sacrifices like the Israelites did...those sacrifices were imperfect.

And in terms of picking and choosing which laws to follow or not,it is the principles in which the laws were established to enforce which is the telling part to your question. So maybe as you offer a specific example of a particular law that would make sense to carry out today, we could unpack it and see how it applies....


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## PaperClip (Jan 29, 2008)

intellect_sensual said:


> My reply is mainly to the bolded. So are you saying that followers who tithe do so not because it is the law but because it shows a special relationship to God?
> *As this thread evolves, I am leaning to say it is BOTH. *
> 
> I am a bit confused about that statement. I have said previosly that I think many see tithing as a blessing because it practices their faith in God. It is not of my opinion that it is because of just tithing, but the idea that you place behind it. You are moving in faith that because you are doing this God will bless you. It is more of the belief in God, than the actual tithing that is at work here.
> ...


 
I am not sure what "emotional attachments" you are referring to. Worship can be emotional, but worship is what the Lord wants more from us than ANYTHING ELSE. Worship is what He created us to do. Worship means "to declare His Worthship", to put Him FIRST above ALL ELSE. 

St. John 4:23-24 says "23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." (KJV)

Amplified Bible
"You [Samaritans] do not know what you are worshiping [you worship what you do not comprehend]. We do know what we are worshiping [we worship what we have knowledge of and understand], for [after all] salvation comes from [among] the Jews. 


23A time will come, however, indeed it is already here, when the true (genuine) worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth (reality); for the Father is seeking just such people as these as His worshipers.  
24God is a Spirit (a spiritual Being) and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (reality).

*The Message*
"But the time is coming—it has, in fact, come—when what you're called will not matter and where you go to worship will not matter. It's who you are and the way you live that count before God. Your worship must engage your spirit in the pursuit of truth. That's the kind of people the Father is out looking for: those who are simply and honestly themselves before him in their worship. God is sheer being itself—Spirit. Those who worship him must do it out of their very being, their spirits, their true selves, in adoration." 



Tithing is a form of worship.


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## intellect_sensual (Jan 29, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> I kindly refer to Hebrews 8:10 (NIV)
> 
> "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. *I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. *I will be their God, and they will be my people."
> 
> ...


 
*Galatians 5:3-4
3 *I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. *4 *You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified[1] by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
*Hebrew's 8:13*
13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
*Hebrew 7:12*
12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.
*Galatians 3:10 says*
10*All who rely on observing the law are under a curse*, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."


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## intellect_sensual (Jan 29, 2008)

Those are but a few scriptures spoken about after the death of Christ that consistently states that these laws are obsolete. The New Law is what is imprinted in our minds and heart, not the ones of old, and the bible has made that clear. I won't go on to address the other part of your post about the principles because like stated the verses speak for themselves.

ETA: I will list an example though like you asked, and I would be happy to disect it with you. Hw about the one about women being unclean during her cycle? Under the Old Law, she was not to sleep with her husband, wherever she sat was unclean, she couldn't go to church during her cycle, and she was to be set apart from everyone. What about that one?


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## PaperClip (Jan 29, 2008)

intellect_sensual said:


> *Galatians 5:3-4*
> *3 *I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. *4 *You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified[1] by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
> *Hebrew's 8:13*
> 13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
> ...


 
*Exactly... observing the law WITHOUT JESUS CHRIST.*

*Please include the other verses before Hebrews 8:13*
Hebrews8:*7*For if that first covenant had been without defect, there would have been no room for another one or an attempt to institute another one. *8*However, He finds fault with them [showing its inadequacy] when He says, Behold, the days will come, says the Lord, when I will make and ratify a new covenant or agreement with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. BIt will not be like the covenant that I made with their forefathers on the day when I grasped them by the hand to help and relieve them and to lead them out from the land of Egypt, for they did not abide in My agreement with them, and so I withdrew My favor and disregarded them, says the Lord. *10*For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will imprint My laws upon their minds, even upon their innermost thoughts and understanding, and engrave them upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

*Please include other verses around Galatians 10:*
10 All those who expect the Law to save them from the punishment of sin will be punished. Because it is written, "Everyone who does not keep on doing all the things written in the Book of the Law will be punished." (Deuteronomy 26:27) 11 No one is made right with God by doing what the Law says. For, "The man right with God will live by faith." (Habakkuk 2:4) 12 *The Law does not use faith. It says, "You must obey all the Law or you will die." (Leviticus 18:5) 13 Christ bought us with His blood and made us free from the Law. In that way, the Law could not punish us. Christ did this by carrying the load and by being punished instead of us.* It is written, "Anyone who hangs on a cross is hated and punished." (Deuteronomy 21:23) 14 Because of the price Christ Jesus paid, the good things that came to Abraham might come to the people who are not Jews. And by putting our trust in Christ, we receive the Holy Spirit He has promised. 

Same chapter of Galatians 10:
19 Then *why do we have the Law? It was given because of sin*. It was to be used until Christ came. The promise had been made looking toward Christ. The Law was given by angels through Moses who stood between God and man. 20 But when the promise was given to Abraham, God gave it without anyone standing between them. *21 Is the Law against the promise of God? No! Never! If it had been possible to be saved from the punishment of sin by obeying the Law, then being right with God would have come by obeying the Law.* 22 But the Holy Writings say that all men are guilty of sin. Then that which was promised might be given to those who put their trust in Christ. It will be because their faith is in Him.


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## PaperClip (Jan 29, 2008)

intellect_sensual said:


> Those are but a few scriptures spoken about after the death of Christ that consistently states that these laws are obsolete. The New Law is what is imprinted in our minds and heart, not the ones of old, and the bible has made that clear. I won't go on to address the other part of your post about the principles because like stated the verses speak for themselves.
> 
> ETA: I will list an example though like you asked, and I would be happy to disect it with you. Hw about the one about women being unclean during her cycle? Under the Old Law, she was not to sleep with her husband, wherever she sat was unclean, she couldn't go to church during her cycle, and she was to be set apart from everyone. What about that one?


 
Exactly what is the New Law? Where is it emphatically and specifically listed?

Yes.... that was actually one law that I was thinking about as an example. I would have to do more research to get a better understanding.... I think it would be safe to say that CULTURAL PRACTICES played a major role in how such guidelines were established. Cultural beliefs about women in general and their menstrual cycles in particular probably had some "interesting" things attached.... Plus, lots of guidelines were instituted simply to keep both spiritual and natural cleanliness, maybe?

What would have been the principle behind the law for a woman to be separated from her husband and others during her cycle? Again, I'd have to explore the topic to give a cogent response....


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## intellect_sensual (Jan 29, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Exactly what is the New Law? Where is it emphatically and specifically listed?
> 
> Yes.... that was actually one law that I was thinking about as an example. I would have to do more research to get a better understanding.... I think it would be safe to say that CULTURAL PRACTICES played a major role in how such guidelines were established. Cultural beliefs about women in general and their menstrual cycles in particular probably had some "interesting" things attached.... Plus, lots of guidelines were instituted simply to keep both spiritual and natural cleanliness, maybe?
> 
> What would have been the principle behind the law for a woman to be separated from her husband and others during her cycle? Again, I'd have to explore the topic to give a cogent response....


 
Why do we need to have culural practices back up the word of God now that we are talking about another one of the laws? If it was a law and as you are saying that is the law that is inscribed in our hearts and minds, shouldn't it be relevant today? The Word should stil rmain today, regardless of any changes right? And so if we are to still practice these laws as you say, then we should practice that one also, regardless of what changes are made in society, because the Lord said so. Isn't that the argument for tithing? Just a question.


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## intellect_sensual (Jan 29, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> *Exactly... observing the law WITHOUT JESUS CHRIST.*
> 
> *Please include the other verses before Hebrews 8:13*
> Hebrews8:*7*For if that first covenant had been without defect, there would have been no room for another one or an attempt to institute another one. *8*However, He finds fault with them [showing its inadequacy] when He says, Behold, the days will come, says the Lord, when I will make and ratify a new covenant or agreement with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. BIt will not be like the covenant that I made with their forefathers on the day when I grasped them by the hand to help and relieve them and to lead them out from the land of Egypt, for they did not abide in My agreement with them, and so I withdrew My favor and disregarded them, says the Lord. *10*For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will imprint My laws upon their minds, even upon their innermost thoughts and understanding, and engrave them upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
> ...


 
I don't see how the rest of this chapter, or any of the things you listed here, take anything away from what I said. I never said the laws were not made. They were, what I am saying now, is now that Jesus has come, how does these laws affect us as Christians today, and the bible has stated consistently that they became obsolete when Jesus completed what was started. If I wrong please I welcome your input, and explanation.


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## Shimmie (Jan 29, 2008)

Mahalialee4;3642675[/quote said:
			
		

> Shimmie said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Precious Mahailee, don't be deceived by satan. For this is the mindset that he alone places into the hearts of Christians to hinder the move of God's work upon the earth. Our money is going to 'move' something in this earth...be it the Gospel or the world's system. And sadly, it is the money from Christians that satan is taken rule of to promote his works, over God's. 

Dear one, in all that you've shared, is this your justification for not tithing? I'm only asking for when one fights so hard not to do something it's because they simply do not 'want' to do it. I present this to you and to anyone who calls themselves a follower of Jesus Christ and who loves Him. 

There's a word in the Bible which says, "it is our 'reasonable service'. Meaning, there are no debates, options or arguments to justify what is expected of us, for we are simply to do it, for it is our 'reasonable service', it comes with the territory.

Jesus said that were our treasure is, our hearts would be also. I can tell you that anyone who places as little into the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as they can, and more into the world's system, has chosen their God. 

Where your treasure is....there you will find your heart. 

For too many Christians, money has become their God and those who do not support the Gospel of Jesus with it, are just as bad as the 'bad' apples in the pulpit who mis-use it. For both are doing the same...for both are stealing from the Lord. 

"Tithing" is a Covenant, a commitment between the Tither and God that when we do His will, He will guarantee our provision and protection. Outside of that is purely a gamble and it is not worth the risk. God never changed His Covenant promises with us. He never will. The Tithe still rules and reigns no matter what the argument against it presents. For the argument and deception of justification will never prove itsself otherwise.

Give God credit for knowing what He is expecting of us. Those who trust Him and those who do not. 

If you chose not to tithe, that's your choice, but never blame it on God for it is not He who has made this decision, it is yours alone...never His. 

The money is going somewhere, with God you have a guaranteed security with high interest. 

Tell satan to get the 'hell' out of your finances and allow God to be your Banker, for right now, you are a servant to your lender and always will be in his bondage financially.


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## PaperClip (Jan 29, 2008)

intellect_sensual said:


> Why do we need to have culural practices back up the word of God now that we are talking about another one of the laws? If it was a law and as you are saying that is the law that is inscribed in our hearts and minds, shouldn't it be relevant today? The Word should stil rmain today, regardless of any changes right? And so if we are to still practice these laws as you say, then we should practice that one also, regardless of what changes are made in society, because the Lord said so. Isn't that the argument for tithing? Just a question.


 
I'm not using cultural practices to back up the Word.... Like I said, I would have to explore the cultural/historical background to understand how it all worked together....

Maybe it had something to do with blood.... the Lord takes blood very seriously.... Even with dietary laws... the laws around that said that they could not drink or ingest blood.... 

I came across this website: http://www.atruechurch.info/sexduringmenstruation.html


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## intellect_sensual (Jan 29, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> I'm not using cultural practices to back up the Word.... Like I said, I would have to explore the cultural/historical background to understand how it all worked together....
> 
> Maybe it had something to do with blood.... the Lord takes blood very seriously.... Even with dietary laws... the laws around that said that they could not drink or ingest blood....
> 
> I came across this website: http://www.atruechurch.info/sexduringmenstruation.html


 
Okay. But my point is that, this was apart of the covenant and one of the laws included, along with tithing etc. Why is it we aren't still practicing this one, if we are like you said suppose to still tithe because the Bible said so. I go to church while my cycle is on, do you?


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## Iammoney (Jan 29, 2008)

imo  its the right thing to do.
and secondly you come to church maybe once or twice a week. you think its by miracle that you have a place to worship. they have bills to pay.
light bill
water bill
mortgage(if they have one)
land tax
renovations
so many other things that have to be maintained. tithing is the least you can do when the church does so much for you. even if the church squanders your money that's not up to you. It has already left your hands. 
yes there are churches that dont help the community but once again that is not for you to figure out. worry about the board that is stuck in your eyes and not about the splinter in theirs.


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## Southernbella. (Jan 29, 2008)

mitcy said:


> imo its the right thing to do.
> and secondly you come to church maybe once or twice a week. you think its by miracle that you have a place to worship. they have bills to pay.
> light bill
> water bill
> ...


 

Just wanted to say that everyone in the thread agrees that we are to give.


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## Mahalialee4 (Jan 29, 2008)

My reply to the Original Posted By mitcy

"Originally Posted by mitcy  
imo its the right thing to do.
and secondly you come to church maybe once or twice a week. you think its by miracle that you have a place to worship. they have bills to pay.
light bill
water bill
mortgage(if they have one)
land tax
renovations
so many other things that have to be maintained. tithing is the least you can do when the church does so much for you. even if the church squanders your money that's not up to you. It has already left your hands. 
yes there are churches that don't help the community but once again that is not for you to figure out. worry about the board that is stuck in your eyes and not about the splinter in theirs."

Note: It is my intent to reply in a spirit of love. I would like to comment
I have never been in a situation where my needs were met by a church. I learned early that “the Lord is my Shepherd I shall not want” and so I never had that expectation to see my personal needs met through the churches that are mortgaged to the hilt and heavily in debt and struggling…if I did come into those situations God would provide a way as He always has. I do not “need” a building to worship God, least of all a fancy one. I can worship Him anywhere. That... is a Miracle! I can worship Him daily. I do not put it on hold until Sunday or special prayer meetings. We are "not to forsake the gathering together of ourselves to incite to love and fine works", but what would you do if they shut down the church buildings as they have in some countries? Have you considered that many Christians in other parts of the world do not meet in church buildings, but in homes or fields or in the open or underground and they still worship God and they are in some cases having far more growth from outside the Christian communities than we do and adding daily? They are not maintaining large buildings and paying off huge mortgages etc. etc. That is a phenomenon of  e.g. "rich North America " where "Christians" grow up feeling entitled and many have “grown fat and complacent”. If we did not have these "special big church" advantages, many Christians in North America are striving for it, many would not want to attend a “poor church” that had only 50-100 members . No. that would not be cool! We are a country that aspires to have designer gowns, jeans, purses and churches! We all have bills to pay. Perhaps some pastors and their congregations need to rethink whether it is wise to put themselves into financial bondage with buildings they cannot afford without putting heavy burdens on themselves and new believers. 

Your quote: “even if the church squanders your money that's not up to you. It has already left your hands”

 Some single mothers on welfare are still expected to tithe in some churches (and that Welfare money is Caesar's money!). If we use the same analogy as stated above, once citizens pay tax it belongs to the government and churches asking tithes out of "welfare money, unemployment insurance money, disability and old age pension money"...it is iffy in my opinion.

 God expects us to each be good stewards. I do not believe that thinking it is alright to see professed Christians squandering what is considered God’s money, robbing Him and “robbing the poor”, constitutes being a good steward.  Do you think God is pleased?  What if you lived in the time when they tithed goats and doves and grain etc. and all of you had to bring it  and watch the “priest” put these things on the altar as a sacrifice to God” Now suppose, that “priest” instead of doing that, was running out and buying himself a big mansion, and servants?...and half of the sacrifices that were brought instead of being offered “up” to God, the “priest decided he could do “what he felt like doing with them and God could like it or lump it, like throw a big barbecue at his mansion and feed all his fattened guests?  Still wouldn’t have a problem,… seeing it had already left your hands? What about the honor due Him and how His Name is being defamed in the land ? It matters to me. If you worked for a wealthy man, and he left you and your family in charge of all his estates and finances, and you stood by and allowed his monies and fortune to diminish and be "partied away", transferred to your own personal accounts...be squandered by your friends and relatives and the other families in the neighbourhood, or you decided to get some land and a big house out of it furnish while his house was in ruins and plundered and instead of making sure his debts were paid, you let it slide and put things in serious arrears,  by this you create a bad name for him in the land to the extent a lot of people wanted nothing to do with him at all and he returned and discovered this....there would be one great reckoning I am sure! But we would not do that to a man right? What if that rich man was your earthly father? This is how I am feeling it and where I am coming from. Well, God is my Father..and I don't like it and I want those people doing it to wake up and to stop! Why do you think Jesus was angry with the money changers and turned over the tables? Because it was HE SAID...His father's house! and he could not sit or stand complacently by. He stayed cool about a lot of things, but that one.....He made it plain...THIS IS DEAD WRONG...I don't like it and I don't care or who hears....STOP IT!

Little children have to live and attend wherever at the mercy and decision of adults. Most adults have a choice.  Perhaps for some, I wonder if "image"  and "life style" is what is being defended by some Christians in this country when some believers and the world's QUESTIONS about the “need” for Americans to attend mansion- like churches, the “need to see” their pastors drive a caddie or a benz and go on “expensive vacations” on their private jets and live a rich man’s life styles gets them upset?  Upset by the questions but not by what is being questioned?   Maybe somehow they feel validated and live vicariously through them. Maybe. 


I have never been in a situation where my needs were met by a church. I learned early that the Lord is my Shepherd I shall not want and so I never had that expectation to see the church buildings as my source and God has provided for me, always and it never came from churches.

Your quote: “yes there are churches that don't help the community but once again that is not for you to figure out” worry about the board that is stuck in your eyes and not about the splinter in theirs.

My answer to that is found in I Corinthians 6: verses 1-5 and verse 15 (extortion) ? Is this Scripture wrong? Also, Is it not also written: :For what have I to do to judge them also that are without” do not ye judge them that are within?...”But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person”..(1 Corinthians 12-13) Is this Scripture wrong? Based on the Scripture, I believe the body has got to care and question wrongdoing within. Would otherwise be “compromise”? Sometimes we wonder why we do not get “more” of what God “promised.” I wonder, is it because of 
“compromise”? Going along with the flow, right or wrong? not questioning and not resisting, just being complacent and compromising?.


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## Mahalialee4 (Jan 29, 2008)

Shimmie said:


> This quote:
> But when I saw it mentioned in a post above
> 
> "that the Gospel is Free, it had to be corrected." For even the Bible from which the Gospel is ministered, was paid for by someone."
> ...


 
Precious Mahailee, don't be deceived by satan. For this is the mindset that he alone places into the hearts of Christians to hinder the move of God's work upon the earth. Our money is going to 'move' something in this earth...be it the Gospel or the world's system. And sadly, it is the money from Christians that satan is taken rule of to promote his works, over God's. 

Dear one, in all that you've shared, is this your justification for not tithing? I'm only asking for when one fights so hard not to do something it's because they simply do not 'want' to do it. I present this to you and to anyone who calls themselves a follower of Jesus Christ and who loves Him. 

There's a word in the Bible which says, "it is our 'reasonable service'. Meaning, there are no debates, options or arguments to justify what is expected of us, for we are simply to do it, for it is our 'reasonable service', it comes with the territory.

Jesus said that were our treasure is, our hearts would be also. I can tell you that anyone who places as little into the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as they can, and more into the world's system, has chosen their God. 

Where your treasure is....there you will find your heart. 

For too many Christians, money has become their God and those who do not support the Gospel of Jesus with it, are just as bad as the 'bad' apples in the pulpit who mis-use it. For both are doing the same...for both are stealing from the Lord. 

"Tithing" is a Covenant, a commitment between the Tither and God that when we do His will, He will guarantee our provision and protection. Outside of that is purely a gamble and it is not worth the risk. God never changed His Covenant promises with us. He never will. The Tithe still rules and reigns no matter what the argument against it presents. For the argument and deception of justification will never prove itsself otherwise.

Give God credit for knowing what He is expecting of us. Those who trust Him and those who do not. 

If you chose not to tithe, that's your choice, but never blame it on God for it is not He who has made this decision, it is yours alone...never His. 

The money is going somewhere, with God you have a guaranteed security with high interest. 

Tell satan to get the 'hell' out of your finances and allow God to be your Banker, for right now, you are a servant to your lender and always will be in his bondage financially.[/QUOTE]

Dear Shimme: Thank you for your zeal for me. Tell me truthfully. are you assuming I do not tithe, do not give offerings or do not trust God for  my finances? Are you assuming that everyone who has made strong statements and questioned this subject and the practices surrounding it is a non tither? To set your heart at rest, that is not the case personally. I repeat, I do not believe in "ritualized, manipulated, forms of extortion used by unscrupulous shepherds, wolves in sheeps clothing, stealing from God and the Church!  Since God has blessed me with so much financially, that I am often overwhelmed and I truly want for nothing., He has often called on DH and me for more than 10 per cent, often, along with free will offerings and a whole lot of needs needing to be met, travelling etc. where He wanted it to go and this included outside of the "church".  He did not have to struggle with me to get it, nor my DH.  Perhaps for that reason I have been in a position to see what is done with money in many Churches that some would never get to see and that is why I am speaking out so strongly, have you considered that? See, dear Shimmie: I do not know your testimony and you do not know mine or the different capacities in which God has used us for His purpose.  But I can tell the love for me in the comments you made to me. Thank you.

I believe God wants obedience and not sacrifice. So what we and I do, I do out of obedience to the leading of the Holy Spirit. 
That said, it does not mean I am blind to a lot that is happening in so many of the "Churches".  Why? Because none of His body should be dishonoring Him so and bringing His Name into public shame!  Jesus stated that what is done to the least of His brothers is done unto Him. I do not like to see the poor and needy among our brothers oppressed or robbed. Just because I am not personally struggling does not  not mean I do not feel righteous anger about manipulative use of Scriptures done by wolves in sheeps clothing. Note, I have not named names of these wicked men.

your quote: And sadly, it is the money from Christians that satan is taken rule of to promote his works, over God's. 

Unfortunately it is wolves in sheep's clothing and "wicked" shepherds who have been his biggest ally.  The sheep who recognizes wolves, and speaks out against the robbery taken place are usually rebuked or silenced, but the dens of robbers do not get confronted and put out.  True Pastors are doubly victimized because the world smears them all with the same brush because of wicked men within and some "poor" churches are TITHING to larger "rich churches and "rich pastors who live like kings!" Were you aware of that? That what is left for "God" in fact, is often the scraps!!!!

Should Jesus have kept silent when he saw the state of the temple? At that time He did the equivalent of what we would say today...blew up!"
LET ME MAKE IT CLEAR AGAIN: God specified HOW and WHERE He wants our finances that are set aside as a tithe or as a free will offering to go. This is DEDICATED MONEY!!!! That is God's tithe. God's money. God's decision about what to do with it. It is not subject to the whim of a man or a board to water it down or divert the funds. It is laid out very clear scripturally where it is to go. My issue is not against Christians, including pastors, evangelist, teachers in the Body  providing for one another. Whether it is with food, clothing, money, whatever!!!! My Issue is and always will be WITH THOSE WHO USE POSITIONS AND THE SCRIPTURES ON TITHING  TO INTIMIDATE...to BULLY, justify spiritual and financial abuse of poor downtrodden people, not to meet any REAL NEEDS, BUT ALL OF their GREED and to rob God of what is His.  Not against good shepherds, just bad shepherds! As those in Ezekial 34:2,18, 19.  Taking money that was DEDICATED money from believers, money that was rightfully intended to be a praise and thanksgiving and a clean conscience TO GOD for many who gave in faith and to further God's Kingdom interests not "Men's kingdoms" interests.  Who did the money belong to when it left the tither's hands?  IT BELONGED TO GOD...not the board, not the pastor and not the church.  Not one penny of that money does anyone have a right to use like their personal bank account. When I see and I have, and have witnessed, men and women arrogantly robbing God, My Father, I am indignant, I am outraged! When widows and orphans, and the poor among us in the body, are thrown scraps, so that some can live like "kings", I am disgusted!!!! I will always denounce it, never say it is alright. If the only way a Pastor is willing to be a shepherd is if he can have a big church, a mansion and all he can get out of it, be "somebody" in the world and "hobknob with the rich and famous" while there are the poor among him, for whom he has no compassion and will only throw the "scraps"  even to his own flock, he is a hireling! I will not tithe or sit under such a man! Some who are "financially rich" in the church like the high seat and recognition and turn a blind eye to it as well and do you think Our Father is pleased?

And finally, if I were a pastor and my "salary" was putting a true hardship on the people, I would not be able to in good conscience take it, regardless of their good hearts, or whether I would be entitled to or not.


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## Mahalialee4 (Jan 30, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> The sentiment of my posts have not come from an "assuming" place. I have incorporated biblical scriptures in my responses. I cannot measure anyone else's JOY in any aspect of their spiritual expressions, including tithing and/or giving. And I am CERTAINLY open to anybody asking questions. I will ask a question of anybody so we're not afraid of questions over here.
> 
> What seems to bubble to the surface about tithing is that it is a specific form of giving with special meaning for (Holy) Spirit filled believers and disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ. Tithing is a form of WORSHIP. The Word of God says that the Lord is seeking those who will worship Him in SPIRIT and in TRUTH. Also, one of the ultimate purposes of tithing is for us to PUT THE LORD FIRST in EVERYTHING, including our finances. Giving the Lord our FIRST and our BEST in our finances. It's not about giving it to the pastor. Tithing is unto the LORD. Yes, we tithe (for the most part) through our local church body, but it is unto the Lord. So even if the pastor is crooked, if the pastor decides to steal the money or torch it in a BBQ pit, for a "true" tither, tithing for the RIGHT reasons (to worship the Lord, put Him FIRST in EVERYTHING, including finances), that person can stand before God and declare that they OBEYED the Word of God, they did what they were supposed to do.
> 
> ...



I am glad to hear you were not assuming that about me or others who had questions and opinions that we were not tithers or did not have a deep relationship like yourself with the Lord. I would not want to have made that assumption based on the specific statement I was asking about without clarifying it directly from you. So I asked. I would not want this to be an "us and them" thread among us.


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## Mahalialee4 (Jan 30, 2008)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Thank you, Shimmie for understanding the role of the Pastor.
> 
> Although my husband and I have yet to have our own ministry in a building, our ministry consists mostly of married couples who are having difficulty in their marriage, and are trying to make it better.  We are worn out during those times of trial between couples, I mean we literally have to get up in the middle of the night sometimes and go to their home, when others are farting (I had to add that) and rolling over in their beds, we are up doing what we need to do to help others...it's not an easy job, but when you are called, you do what you must.
> 
> ...



Now that is having a "pastor's" heart. Also, the congregation should not overtax pastors physically or be calling on them unnecessarily for things they need to handle themselves. I do not believe in abuse of the faithful pastors that "God" has placed in the body. True pastors...They love the sheep.


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## Iammoney (Jan 30, 2008)

lauren450 said:


> Just wanted to say that everyone in the thread agrees that we are to give.



i know but these are my reasons


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## Mahalialee4 (Jan 30, 2008)

Shimmie said:


> Tithing supports, Ministry and Miinstry is NEEDED in this earth.
> 
> In many, many, cases "Offerings" are only 'pinches' and 'peels' from most 'Church Goers', who actually are giving God banana skins after they've eaten the fruit inside.
> 
> ...



Not everyone feels this way. To me, "free will" is above and beyond what would be required as a tithe. And I mean in amounts. So if the tithe was  calculated to be $100 and then you wanted to throw in another $100 as "free will", you did not feel compelled, you just wanted to!


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## Shimmie (Jan 30, 2008)

Mahalialee4 said:


> Not everyone feels this way. To me, "free will" is above and beyond what would be required as a tithe. And I mean in amounts. So if the tithe was calculated to be $100 and then you wanted to throw in another $100 as "free will", you did not feel compelled, you just wanted to!


Good Morning Precious Mahalialee.   

Okay, this is where I think some of the confusion lies in your posts as I'm reading them:

#1...The quotes from other members in your posts are not clearly defined. They are mixed within your statements with the wrong person's name identified as their comments.  It's challenging to read and to define when it's you speaking or if it's another poster's comments.  

#2...You shared you are a 'Tither' ... got it.  

#3....Yet, so much 'disagreement' is being 'expressed' in your posts, that it appears that you do not 'agree' with tithing.  It 'appears' that you don't agree with it being scriptual.  

Your argument regarding the 'abusers' (dishonest leaders), is your justification.  

No one here is unaware that there are SOME -- NOT All -- but SOME leaders who mis-use the monies given by parishioners.  But this is where the Tither prays and moves on to give to a deserving ministry.  It does not stop 'tithing' from being God's will neither does it change the spiritual meaning of tithing, which is a sure Covenant between God and the Tither.

I may be wrong in my perception, but from reading your replies, although you say you are a tither and a giver, it appears you simply do not agree with tithing unless you 'feel' like tithing or giving and it has to be what you want to do when you want to do it.  You don't accept that it is scriptual.     
If the 'abuse' of the tithes is your focused reasoning, why not move on to someone else who is not an abuser of funds. There are many, many out there.  And they are not 

Tithing is a 'gift'.  A wonderful gift; it marries us to God with our finances, which says, we forsake all others and put God first in our hearts with what we have.  No one else gets to touch this...He does, for unto Him it belongs.   That's why 1st has so much meaning in life, for none other comes before it.  It is an honor.  A beautiful honor.  

So much so, that there are Churches and Pastors that are NOT as you accuse them as being.  You spoke of the poor in other countries who do not have Church buildings in which to worship.  True, but they still give.  

They still give what they have and in the form of tithing (committed giving), to help keep their worship afloat and to help others in need.  For you see, in pure ministry, people will always be givers to keep the ministry alive and flowing.  They give money, food, clothing, whatever they have to give, they give and do not argue against it. 

Contrary to your comments, most of the Churches I know of (all over this country), give 'free' Bibles, study materials, food, shelter, clothing, school uniforms, learning tools, free counseling for domestic needs, the list is endless.  Yet your posts say otherwise.  

One example (I have 1000's) but here's one:  Locally in Maryland one of the Churches allows the 'homeless' to camp out on their property and they set up a daily kitchen, even an outside Bar-be-cue grill and they feed these people DAILY...three full HOT Meals.   They provide facilities for the homeless and they ask nothing of no one to do so.   

Now the crooked persons are the City government who take our taxes and spent it on foolishness.  Yet the Churches are the ones who take care of the 'forsaken'.  

I guess what I'm sharing here is that I don't see anything positive or good written in your posts about the Church.  I'm not saying that you haven't, but I don't see it.  All that's been written has been the negative, when in actuality, there is more Good in the Church than the bad. 

As long as there is a devil in this earth, there will be a 'stain' in every form of life and life's activities.  But there is still more good.  

I'm going to quote something that came from one of my 'babies'.  We were trying to find some mis-placed keys.  The first thing that came out of his mouth was as we were searching for the keys, "Evil Shall Not Triumph Over Good"!   This came from the heart of a child.  And.....we found the keys...

No matter what's going on in this life..."Evil Shall Not Triumph Over Good!"

God bless you Mahalilee, I mean this sincerely.  Sorry for all of the confusion and misunderstanding.


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## Mahalialee4 (Jan 30, 2008)

Dear Shimmie: I pasted a post that I made in the CF where I shared some of my testimony with a discouraged person. Perhaps you will understand better where I am coming from. I have to post an additional post to include it as there is not enough room in this box. So read the other post first. Please read it and consider that the Church is being viewed, scrutinized from outside and inside. Please accept that the world and the believers recognize that there are varieties of beliefs taught, varieties of interpretations made on a lot of doctrine, including tithing and this by teachers, pastors and leaders. There is lack of agreement on the subject of tithing among Christian religious leaders across the Christian community as a whole. This itself has created confusion in the Body and the congregations being taught. The Church itself is confused!  I did not grow up in this confusion, I came into this confusion when I came into the Christian churches and I had to deal with it as do so many with its conflicting teachings and opinions. Faced with this obvious confusion of teachings, I reserve the right to question whether what I am being taught is scripturally sound. I do have a right and a responsibility to do that and to question the conduct and behaviours , attitudes and beliefs of teachers. Seeing this great confusion among them, who claim to represent and “speak for” Christ, I question, just as you have been and do question me.

The subject of tithing is a critical issue in the body. It is open for discussion. It is open to question. Accept that. “God is not the author of confusion”. When there is all this confusion some hard  questions are going to be asked. The sad thing is when the world, when searching people and new believers and confused believers and watchmen see the state of the Church.  Too many of  its members, instead of being aroused and indignant at the stumbling that has and is occurring due to conflicted teachings from the pulpits, indifference to injustice and wrong doing in the pulpit and the church boards which in a lot of cases does involve “mismanagement of church funds”, there appears to be a  desire to push it under the carpet, and cover it over and say “Let’s just focus on the good things happening”…IGNORE THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM! And if we don’t question these things out in the open, people will forget about it and the World won’t even notice that we are in confusion! They already know!!!!

Jesus knew that eventually wicked men would be dealt with but that did not stop Him from speaking out, questioning and condemning wicked practices. He was at the time, in and among that system that God was dealing with. Matthew 23 is full of what he had to say. He did not pussy foot around nor bury His head in the sand. He also warned the people about them and denounced their wicked ways. He also told the Pharisees that He would send them prophets, wise men and scribes, and said that some would be killed and crucified, scourged in the synagogues and persecuted from city to city. Why, because they spoke out. He stated in Matt: 23:28..”Even so, you outwardly appear righteous to men but inside you are full of hypocracy and lawlessness”. Today when you question and speak out, it is considered “unloving”, rebellious, and divisive. “Love and exposure” are not mutually exclusive. As the Word says…”better a public rebuke than a secret love”…

Jesus spoke of their scrupulous tithing but he in the same verse stated that “they had forgotten the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.” He told them that they were straining out the gnat and swallowing a camel. Verse 25 and 26 went even further. 
So, I do not apologize for  saying boldly and often that there is an elephant in the room and it is leaving droppings and it needs to be cleaned up, not sprayed with perfume!
It may comfort the disturbed and disturb the comfortable. 
Regarding your comments to me:
“I may be wrong in my perception, but from reading your replies, although you say you are a tither and a giver, it appears you simply do not agree with tithing unless you 'feel' like tithing or giving and it has to be what you want to do when you want to do it. You don't accept that it is scriptual. 
If the 'abuse' of the tithes is your focused reasoning, why not move on to someone else who is not an abuser of funds. There are many, many out there. And they are not………”
“I guess what I'm sharing here is that I don't see anything positive or good written in your posts about the Church. I'm not saying that you haven't, but I don't see it. *…All that's been written has been the negative, when in actuality, *there is more Good in the Church than the bad.

*Well, that is your perception but you make up for my lack, right?  There were many positive comments made about the good. By you and others.(smile)
*There may be more water than poison in a glass…but that poison might be of great concern to some that are told to drink a glass of water that is contaminated.  Remember the Word says “Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocracy”.Luke 12:1: Mark 3:15 and Matthew 16:6, 11-12 He clarified that He was warning them about the “doctrine” (teaching) of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.” Obviously confusion in the camp back there too!
…”a little leaven ferments the whole lump” I Cor: 5:1-13 dealing with sin in the Church.
Now if you want my views focused on the “good within the Church” then I would reply based on a post that was titled. “ Positive Comments on the Good Inside the Church “Only”…no Negatives!!!
Otherwise, I would assume that I am not under restrictions under an “open topic”. I understand your defensiveness, your concern and your questioning of my views and my motives. I do not hold that against you. You have a perfect right to do so. I am sure you are putting up a hard fight for the faith, but so am I but I am confronting the problems at the root! Whether you see it or me that way or not. Sometimes, we need to take the “axe to the root!” All the very best to you in His service.


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## Mahalialee4 (Jan 30, 2008)

QUOTE=missty1029;3628171]Ok so I have some questions. I just started back into the church and I often stayed awayvbecause of the money issue.

Know what I dont understand about tithing? If someone does it they have that choice. But people who dont are cast out and said to be disobedient. Why? The bible and everything in it is interpretation. No one may want to hear that but unless you were there and can read the original language the bible was written in, its interpretation. There is nothing wrong with that. And I am may get blasted for saying this. But when I got to church and my pastor singles out all the people who have the exact amount he asks for or always talks about how you have to catch up and if you dont pay you dont need to be there, then that is messed up. I know I shoudl have faith in God but when lights get cut off and car being repossessed its hard to see a pastor pulling up in him BMW in his three peice suits of whatever church you may go to. 


From all the differnet quotes I read on tithing it seems to stress the importance of giving a portion of what you have. But it also seems like that has lost its focus because it must be 10% of your salary. 

There are people of different faith who dont tithe and are blessed and there are people who tithe and still face hardships.

What happened to just being a good person? What happened to giving what you can with what you have? 

I know this question of tithing runs a lot of people out of the church and it ruins a lot of peoples faith. To me thats the really issue and I dont think thats what Gods plan is. I dont think in any way God has it if you dont give your 10% your not as good as the next. 

But Im just someone who believes God loves me, I was born in his image and he has great things for me. I will always give back because that is in my heart on being a good person. But I think its messed up when churches, pastors and whoever else tries to make me feel like a bad person because I dont give what is an interpretation of the bible to be 10% of my salary.[/quote]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Misty, could I just minister to your heart and from a place that I have been

note: (when as an unbeliever I was searching for the Saviour from the Bible was telling me about.) 

I totally understand where you are coming from: a place of discouragement. When people come to the Lord, broken and in need of restoration, there can be many stumbling blocks placed in your path. Often great discouragement.
Let me share this with you. You may be able to see the humor of some of the situations. When I was searching and wanting God in my life....before I became a Christian, I had people, "well meaning Christians" coming out of the woodwork. I knew nothing about "church", I was raised from a babe to believe that "all Christian Churches were synogues of Satan" so you know I was totally clueless and fearful living in a community full of "gasp!!!"churches. I had never associated with any Christians. It took so much courage for me to walk inside of a church, knowing that when I did, I would be considered forever dead to my family and friends, forever and shunned privately and publicly by them. I was already being shunned once they found out I was reading the Bible. I was on 9 months bedrest and received only one visitor one time who told me they had been warned to stay away from me. I truly had to forsake family and friends to seek Jesus so I decided to give the "Christians" a chance. All I had was a Bible that I had been reading like it was food, and a heart for God. I was just "one of those little ones that believe." based on what I had read in the Bible by myself. People who were raised in the church or had "Christian relatives" or friends, take a lot for granted and do not realize that they can be stumbling blocks to one of his little ones, in their eagerness, and bruise the spirit. But Jesus said " a heart broken and contrite He would no means turn away". And Jesus will not turn you away over money.

People are imperfect, as are Christians and Pastors. I share this with you to encourage you to keep seeking Him and pray that He will give you a pastor after His own heart. When I was going through that, I came across that in His Word, and I held on to it, like a dying woman. Jeremiah 3:15 " And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding" ..I pray that for you. I have since been exposed to many different pastors and some are tried and true and have a heart for God who do feed with knowledge and understanding and even more ...wisdom. To continue what I was sharing: on discovering that "this lost, unsaved person" was up for "grabs," ( I have to look back on some of this with humor!), pastors and all kinds of professing christians were turning up at my doorstep. At work, I would get bombarded and harassed. What they said was dogmatic law and that was that, no questions asked, with not a few "or else you are going to hell!!!!". Their first concern was to inform me even before I attended their services that I needed to "tithe", or "speak in tongues", or worship on Saturday, or pray to Mary", based on their beliefs..."or else I was going to hell!" everybody was just so intent on ramming their particular doctrines down my throat, they left nothing to God and the Holy Spirit to draw me and lead me, beating me with their Bibles everyday on hard doctrines I had never heard and shoving "meat" down my throat before I had even tasted the milk! And they were so sincere! They stood in the path of eternal life and blocked it, like a toll booth and gatekeepers and guards. I said to one lady at work" I would love to come to Jesus, I just wish you would get out of the way...maybe people like you are the reason people do not want to listen to you Christians." Her unloving attitude, rudeness, arrogance, and self righteousness and threatening fire and brimstone had actually become a part of her character, and I had to work with this woman. ( Girl it was a trip!) In another situation, I was on a lunch break, minding my own business, and a "christian" sat down at my table, and literally harassed me in what she thought was "witnessing" to me the whole time, despite my requesting her to leave my table. I did not know this lady. This was in a large government cafeteria. She worked in one of the departments.

See, the Bible says "No one comes to the Father unless the Spirit draws them", and they were not using wisdom and it was a turn off and stumbling block and an offense. Had they been led by the Spirit, their methods and approach and spirit would have been different. I pray they have gotten wiser over the years.

"There is a time for every affair under the sun.." I am believing that you feel that it was the wrong time in your life and the wrong place for that to be directed at you by a believer and by a pastor and especially publicly. Now I do not know what is in his heart, but God knows your heart and what you need. Ask Him to lead you to where you should be to receive what you need at the time. He is so faithful I tell you. And the business about the money will be straightened out too if you trust Him. "Why so downcast, O my soul, put your trust in {GOD!}"
If He could do this for me when I was yet an unbeliever, before I was His child, I know He can do so much for you!!!
__________________


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## Shimmie (Jan 30, 2008)

Mahalialee4 said:


> QUOTE=missty1029;3628171]Ok so I have some questions. I just started back into the church and I often stayed awayvbecause of the money issue.
> 
> Know what I dont understand about tithing? If someone does it they have that choice. But people who dont are cast out and said to be disobedient. Why? The bible and everything in it is interpretation. No one may want to hear that but unless you were there and can read the original language the bible was written in, its interpretation. There is nothing wrong with that. And I am may get blasted for saying this. But when I got to church and my pastor singles out all the people who have the exact amount he asks for or always talks about how you have to catch up and if you dont pay you dont need to be there, then that is messed up. I know I shoudl have faith in God but when lights get cut off and car being repossessed its hard to see a pastor pulling up in him BMW in his three peice suits of whatever church you may go to.
> 
> ...


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Mahalialee4 said:


> Misty, could I just minister to your heart and from a place that I have been
> 
> note: (when as an unbeliever I was searching for the Saviour from the Bible was telling me about.)
> 
> ...


Thanks Mahalialee.... I apologize for misunderstanding. 

Love and blessings to you. I mean this sincerely.

ETA:  If you like, I can help you with the 'quote' feature, so that it distincts more clearly who is being quoted and what you are sharing.


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## Mahalialee4 (Jan 30, 2008)

Shimmie said:


> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Thanks Mahalialee.... I apologize for misunderstanding.
> 
> ...



I know you do Shimmie! It's okay darlin'.


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## Puddles (Jan 30, 2008)

kbragg said:


> Tithing is a Spiritual Law, just like the law of reaping and sowing, giving, sin and death, etc. It is not a "requirement" to be blessed but I do believe based on personal experience that when you do it in faith, it's just about guaranteed. Tithing is the only time in the Bible where God allows us to test Him.
> 
> All I know is, when I didn't tithe, I never had enough, I couldn't pay bills, struggled etc. When me and DH began tithing, we've experienced God's faithfulness first hand, where even in a time of financial famine, God provided for us SUPERNATURALLY! Mathematically it doesn't make sense, but He did it.
> 
> ...



I so agree with this. 
Me and hubby are faithful tithers. 
Just like some other Christians who believe it's not law......that's their opinion. Maybe they're taking it out of context.....not the other way around. I know my MIL did. 
After attending a church that teaches instead of preaches....she's now a faithful tither as well.
God is good......why wouldn't you want to give Him back what's already His. Especially if your church is feeding you well.


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## OhmyKimB (Feb 8, 2008)

kbragg said:


> Tithing is a Spiritual Law, just like the law of reaping and sowing, giving, sin and death, etc. It is not a "requirement" to be blessed but I do believe based on personal experience that when you do it in faith, it's just about guaranteed. Tithing is the only time in the Bible where God allows us to test Him.
> 
> *All I know is, when I didn't tithe, I never had enough, I couldn't pay bills, struggled etc. When me and DH began tithing, we've experienced God's faithfulness first hand, where even in a time of financial famine, God provided for us SUPERNATURALLY! Mathematically it doesn't make sense, but He did it.*
> 
> ...


 

I started tithing with my first job when I was like maybe 16? (I'm 21 now)... I wasn't consist but I did do it. I always tried to...even though I didn't get it really. But I know that sometimes my mom would tell me that I didn't really have to tithe yet because I didn't have much and I could always catch up. Well since I've come home to finish school she said that to me over the summer again  and stupid meerplexed did what she said. 

And now I notice I'm always BROKE...I never really had that issue before. I didn't roll in the money but I never had problems with gas and books and whatever and usually ended up loaning money to my friends when they needed and it still didn't effect me. 

I never noticed how much of a difference there is when I stop tithing but now that I notice...ya'll know I took my tithe right out of my account the day I got paid right?


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## OhmyKimB (Feb 8, 2008)

Mahalialee4 said:


> Note: It is my intent to reply in a spirit of love. I would like to comment
> I have never been in a situation where my needs were met by a church.


 

I'm sorry. I'll admit I didn't read your whole post yet but I will. This whole last month...two months I went through a lot but. I have to say...this whole thread and the ones I've been reading confirm something...

I used to think why am I tithing to my church...it's not doing anything...how do I really make my tithe go to God...church is just a bunch of people...but what you said makes me think

Every year I've been in college my church has given myself and other money to go to school. My freshmen year...myself and another were blessed with a grand...where that came from...WHO KNOWS! but...I see how my needs are met by my church...even though they get on my nerves...I'm sorry but I have to tell ppl when I'm having a small spiritual awakening....that's what my last month has been like


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## Nice & Wavy (Feb 8, 2008)

BeyondBlessed said:


> I started tithing with my first job when I was like maybe 16? (I'm 21 now)... I wasn't consist but I did do it. I always tried to...even though I didn't get it really. But I know that sometimes my mom would tell me that I didn't really have to tithe yet because I didn't have much and I could always catch up. Well since I've come home to finish school she said that to me over the summer again and stupid meerplexed did what she said.
> 
> And now I notice I'm always BROKE...I never really had that issue before. I didn't roll in the money but I never had problems with gas and books and whatever and usually ended up loaning money to my friends when they needed and it still didn't effect me.
> 
> I never noticed how much of a difference there is when I stop tithing but now that I notice...ya'll know I took my tithe right out of my account the day I got paid right?


 
I know you did...


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## Nice & Wavy (Feb 8, 2008)

BeyondBlessed said:


> I'm sorry. I'll admit I didn't read your whole post yet but I will. This whole last month...two months I went through a lot but. I have to say...this whole thread and the ones I've been reading confirm something...
> 
> I used to think why am I tithing to my church...it's not doing anything...how do I really make my tithe go to God...church is just a bunch of people...but what you said makes me think
> 
> Every year I've been in college my church has given myself and other money to go to school. My freshmen year...myself and another were blessed with a grand...where that came from...WHO KNOWS! but...I see how my needs are met by my church...even though they get on my nerves...I'm sorry but I have to tell ppl when I'm having a small spiritual awakening....that's what my last month has been like


 
...you sound just like my daughter here.  She said the same thing to me just the other day.  She realized that when she stopped tithing, she didn't have as much as when she did. My daughter is 26.

Thank you for your post....


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## cheetarah1980 (Feb 8, 2008)

lauren450 said:


> Can someone who's read the tithe scriptures tell me why you aren't tithing according to the way God mandated? Because God was very specific about the way the tithe was to be collected, when,and who it went to. There was more than one tithe also, so how many tithes are you giving?


 
I have to say you have a HUGE point.  The modern day concept of tithing is NOTHING like what is outlined in scripture.  There is also the jubilee year "tithe" which is actually 30%.  
I'm not going to get into whether we're required to tithe based on what laws still apply (because they ALL still apply).  However, it is NOT presently feasible to follow the tithe laws due to the lack of a Levitical priesthood and other factors.  However, we can follow the principle.  We have to remember that God's word DOES NOT contradict itself.  The Apostolic scriptures (i.e. New Testament) does NOT undo or take away anything that is prescribed in the Hebraic scriptures (i.e. Old Testament).  So it's not an issue of, "well the New Testament doesn't say we have to do it, so it must not count anymore."


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## Southernbella. (Feb 9, 2008)

cheetarah1980 said:


> I have to say you have a HUGE point. The modern day concept of tithing is NOTHING like what is outlined in scripture. There is also the jubilee year "tithe" which is actually 30%.
> I'm not going to get into whether we're required to tithe based on what laws still apply (because they ALL still apply). However, it is NOT presently feasible to follow the tithe laws due to the lack of a Levitical priesthood and other factors. However, we can follow the principle. We have to remember that God's word DOES NOT contradict itself. The Apostolic scriptures (i.e. New Testament) does NOT undo or take away anything that is prescribed in the Hebraic scriptures (i.e. Old Testament). So it's not an issue of, "well the New Testament doesn't say we have to do it, so it must not count anymore."


 
 So you saw all that, too.

I agree with you about the principle of giving. The Bible is very clear about that.


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## live2bgr8 (Feb 9, 2008)

cheetarah1980 said:


> I have to say you have a HUGE point. The modern day concept of tithing is NOTHING like what is outlined in scripture. There is also the jubilee year "tithe" which is actually 30%.
> I'm not going to get into whether we're required to tithe based on what laws still apply (because they ALL still apply). However, it is NOT presently feasible to follow the tithe laws due to the lack of a Levitical priesthood and other factors. However, we can follow the principle. We have to remember that God's word DOES NOT contradict itself. The Apostolic scriptures (i.e. New Testament) does NOT undo or take away anything that is prescribed in the Hebraic scriptures (i.e. Old Testament). So it's not an issue of, "well the New Testament doesn't say we have to do it, so it must not count anymore."


 
Thanks to you all for sharing, I really appreciate this discussion because I have recently wrestled with this issue... I have generally believed in an automatic 10% + offering off the top... but now not so sure... 

I'm quoting you because you hit the nail on the head of our need... The western church is Biblically illiterate...  I lump myself in this group, but I don't plan to stay that way...

But I also want to point out--(maybe it was said b4 but I missed it)

Throughout the New Testament we see believers living in communities where literally all of their belongings were sold and the money given to the community of believers for the benefit of each other... Houses were shared...

Today many church goers would call these same people a cult...

Maybe they will give 10-15%-- but all? Not likely...

It's clear, though--Ananias and Saphira did not die over 10%... It really wasn't even about the money, but rather the condidition of their hearts...

I think that if the whole church was more concerned about teaching/learning the WHOLE Bible in context, perhaps this issue would not be a debate... as well as many other issues... 

I used to hear my dad say, "I hear more about Malachi 3:10, than I hear about the 'abomination that causes desolation' or the 'parable of the fig tree'"

I say--some churches hit Malachi 3:10 more than they hit 1 Corinthians 13:4-8...

I'm not saying that all congregations lack in this area... but a general lack of complete Bible teaching (in concert with guidance from the Holy Spirit) has left the Western church in confusion...


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## cheetarah1980 (Feb 9, 2008)

Just for clarification, I do consistently give 10% of my gross.  I do this because it's as close an approximation I can make to what is outlined in Leviticus.  I just don't like when today's churches equate contemporary tithing with the tithe laws, cause they are NOT one in the same. 
I do, however, agree that the principle of tithing is not just about giving, it's also about faith and reliance on God.  Remember, Jesus came to fulfill the Law, NOT abolish it.  He said not one jot or tittle was to be taken away until both heaven and earth pass away (which they NEVER will).  When Jesus talks about fulfilling the Law, he's talking about bringing forth the fullness and spirit with which every law was given.  When evaluating whether or not to tithe, remember the spirit of why the law was given (to take care of the Levitical priesthood, to help the poor, to give back to God what he's given to us, to put our faith and reliance on God to provide all of our needs).  
We must remember that there are many laws in scripture which we simply cannot carry out today because there is no temple or priesthood or don't even know what they really mean (i.e. Do not boil a baby goat in its mother's milk).  But we can still study to find out the spirit with which the law was intended and abide as best we can.


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## live2bgr8 (Feb 9, 2008)

cheetarah1980 said:


> Just for clarification, I do consistently give 10% of my gross. I do this because it's as close an approximation I can make to what is outlined in Leviticus. I just don't like when today's churches equate contemporary tithing with the tithe laws, cause they are NOT one in the same.
> I do, however, agree that the principle of tithing is not just about giving, it's also about faith and reliance on God. Remember, Jesus came to fulfill the Law, NOT abolish it. He said not one jot or tittle was to be taken away until both heaven and earth pass away (which they NEVER will). When Jesus talks about fulfilling the Law, he's talking about bringing forth the fullness and spirit with which every law was given. When evaluating whether or not to tithe, remember the spirit of why the law was given (to take care of the Levitical priesthood, to help the poor, to give back to God what he's given to us, to put our faith and reliance on God to provide all of our needs).
> We must remember that there are many laws in scripture which we simply cannot carry out today because there is no temple or priesthood or don't even know what they really mean (i.e. Do not boil a baby goat in its mother's milk). But we can still study to find out the spirit with which the law was intended and abide as best we can.


 
Yes, I agree... with this whole post... It's the heart and the Spirit as we follow the loves... i mean Law


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## OhmyKimB (Feb 9, 2008)

Uh..I dunno if this goes here but...
In the last month...two months God and I have gone through a lot...mostly me. But I mean it's all for the good of God...to bring me closer to him. I'm still struggling with doubt mostly cuz of my fear of understanding wrong...or taking something to be from God when it isn't. But tomorrow (Sunday) will be the first Sunday I've tithed since the summer...and I'm sitting here like I feel a real joy in my heart...I can't wait for tomorrow to come so I can put my envelope into the offering basket. And I know that it's not a matter of pride. It's not the blessings I'll recieve...but I'm finally really on track to getting right with God...I could go on but I don't want to type that much and I don't think everyone wants to read it all. But I just feel really blessed right...and it's been a while since I've felt like this...despite the massive blessings I'm blessed with

I guess this is the joy in giving we should feel..I wish could just tell somebody everything...but the only two ppl that would understand aren't available


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## georgeinfo (Feb 10, 2008)

'Giving' and 'tithing' are not the same.

None of the 'tithing' that occurs now has any connection to the definition of tithing contained in the Bible. (other than to mention 10%)  In a nutshell, the were four tithes. 
1)The Levitical tithe required those who raised crops (not everyone and not all professions - just those who raised crops) to give 10% of that to the Levites. This tithe only occurred 6 years out of the 7 year cycle. It also required those that raised 10 or more animals to give each tenth animal that passed under the rod to the Levites. If a person raised less than 10 animals, they were NOT required to tithe. It also means that the person with 10 animals and the person with 19 animals both gave the same amount - 1 animal. The person with 10 animals gave an exact 10% while the person with 19 gave approximately 5% and both were legal.  It is important to note here that God required the gift at the end of the line of 10 - not the first.
2) From what was given to them, the Levites in turn had to give the very best to the priests. 
3) The festival tithe required that those who raised crops or animals to set aside 10% for the annual festivals. It was for the people to have a party and consume the food joyfully and alcoholic beverages (strong drink) if they wanted. 
4) The Poor tithe occurred only in the 3rd and 6th years of the seven year cycle. This was set aside FOR the poor.   

All tithes were always food and NEVER money.   

Abram's tithe is clearly is NOT the precedent setting example that we have been told. For starters, Abram did not give his own money and he kept NONE of the money and valuables for himself.

We should be generous but the poor widow is NOT our example. She was being plundered by church leaders.  

There is no single formula for Christians to be able to judge for themselves whether they are generous or not. Each person needs to hear from God for themselves.

Interested? Send me a private message and I will inform you of web sites that contains lots of additional info concerning the truth about tithing.
George


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## Nice & Wavy (Feb 10, 2008)

georgeinfo said:


> 'Giving' and 'tithing' are not the same.
> 
> None of the 'tithing' that occurs now has any connection to the definition of tithing contained in the Bible. (other than to mention 10%)  In a nutshell, the were four tithes.
> 1)The Levitical tithe required those who raised crops (not everyone and not all professions - just those who raised crops) to give 10% of that to the Levites. This tithe only occurred 6 years out of the 7 year cycle. It also required those that raised 10 or more animals to give each tenth animal that passed under the rod to the Levites. If a person raised less than 10 animals, they were NOT required to tithe. It also means that the person with 10 animals and the person with 19 animals both gave the same amount - 1 animal. The person with 10 animals gave an exact 10% while the person with 19 gave approximately 5% and both were legal. It is important to note here that God required the gift at the end of the line of 10 - not the first.
> ...


 
This is only your second post so I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

If you noticed, this topic has been discussed in great detail and we all have given both sides of how we feel.

As the OP of this thread, please...please don't start off coming into the CF with any drama.  Yes, you have a right to say whatever you want because you paid your $5, but I would appreciate it if you would NOT bring any type of confusion to this thread.  If you would like, why not start another thread, so that way you can get others to post in it.

Thank you.


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## chellero (Feb 11, 2008)

Nice & Wavy said:


> This is only your second post so I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> If you noticed, this topic has been discussed in great detail and we all have given both sides of how we feel.
> 
> ...




I am confused by your comment.  I don't see how george's comment brought any confusion or drama.  It was just another perspective.  And george was a lot more polite then some of the CF regulars have been lately.


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## PaperClip (Feb 11, 2008)

chellero said:


> I am confused by your comment. I don't see how george's comment brought any confusion or drama. It was just another perspective. And george was a lot more polite then some of the CF regulars have been lately.


 
I believe that N&W's post was to encourage George to apply an opportunity to read through the entire thread as several of the points made in George's post were addressed and/or responded to/resolved...or had reached an amicable "agree to disagree" settlement....

It's unfortunate to hear/read that some of the CF regulars may not appear to be as polite lately. I'd be curious to see an example of this, particularly to understand if the filter of "rudeness?" results from tone, content, conviction, condemnation, or combination thereof.


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## Nice & Wavy (Feb 11, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> I believe that N&W's post was to encourage George to apply an opportunity to read through the entire thread as several of the points made in George's post were addressed and/or responded to/resolved...or had reached an amicable "agree to disagree" settlement....
> 
> It's unfortunate to hear/read that some of the CF regulars may not appear to be as polite lately. I'd be curious to see an example of this, particularly to understand if the filter of "rudeness?" results from tone, content, conviction, condemnation, or combination thereof.


 
Thank you for explaining, RR.

Sometimes I have to wonder.....my goodness


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## Nice & Wavy (Feb 11, 2008)

chellero said:


> I am confused by your comment. I don't see how george's comment brought any confusion or drama. It was just another perspective. And george was a lot more polite then some of the CF regulars have been lately.


 
Maybe you are confused because the comment was not meant for you.

I'm sure that george will come in and ask about what I posted and I will give her an answer.

If your feeling that I was not polite, whether in this thread or in another, than please, skip over any thread/post that I post in so that way, it won't bother you or cause you to be confused.


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## chellero (Feb 11, 2008)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Thank you for explaining, RR.
> 
> Sometimes I have to wonder.....my goodness



Well it's nice to know what you meant.  The comment really made no sense to me at all.  What is it that you are "wondering" about?  If it pertains to me or my comment then I will happy to answer any questions that you may have.


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## kally (Feb 11, 2008)

if I tithe I literally would be left with less then 50 bucks and I only get paid on the 15th and 31 of each month. That does not included gas and food. 

How does one live off of that?


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## chellero (Feb 11, 2008)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Maybe you are confused because the comment was not meant for you.
> 
> I'm sure that george will come in and ask about what I posted and I will give her an answer.
> 
> If your feeling that I was not polite, whether in this thread or in another, than please, skip over any thread/post that I post in so that way, it won't bother you or cause you to be confused.




I never said that I felt that you were not polite.  But for the record I will read and respond to whatever I like in this forum or in any other no matter who the comment is direct to!


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## PaperClip (Feb 11, 2008)

kally said:


> if I tithe I literally would be left with less then 50 bucks and I only get paid on the 15th and 31 of each month. That does not included gas and food.
> 
> How does one live off of that?


 
1. FAITH. I'm a WITNESS that the Lord will provide. Even when I was laid off with my own apt., the rent was paid, the car note paid, the utilities paid, I ate good EVERYDAY (and it shows!)

2. WISE STEWARDSHIP. Especially as a full-time college student, I have learned what a REAL NEED is and what a REAL WANT is. I've learned to stop buying what I want and begging for what I need. I've learned that instant gratification isn't worth it.

3. HUSTLE (LEGALLY)! Going through TWO layoffs (incl. one when I had a MASTER'S DEGREE), I've learned how to "hit a lick" as they say and I don't depend on a 9-5 JOB (just over broke) as my ONLY INCOME. I do side projects and I work to cultivate MULTIPLE STREAMS OF INCOME. People come to me to proofread their documents, I have even written and designed obituaries and brochures and stuff and GET PAID FOR IT. There are PLENTY of scriptures that speak to the disadvantages of LAZINESS.

Kally, I'm not calling you lazy but I'm saying that it there is probably room in your life to do more.... for what that's worth....

Hopefully others can add to the list.


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## Nice & Wavy (Feb 11, 2008)

chellero said:


> I never said that I felt that you were not polite. *But for the record I will read and respond to whatever I like in this forum or in any other no matter who the comment is direct to*!


 
This comment made me laugh....

Too-shay, chellero!

The joy of the Lord IS and shall ALWAYS be my STRENGTH!!


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## chellero (Feb 11, 2008)

kally said:


> if I tithe I literally would be left with less then 50 bucks and I only get paid on the 15th and 31 of each month. That does not included gas and food.
> *
> How does one live off of that?*




I don't know. I think that a lot of people find themselves in this situation.  After you pay for health insurance, mortgage, food, taxes and shelter then there may not be enough left for some folks to tithe.  That's one of the reasons that I am trying to figure out if tithing is really still required, or if it's just something that churches and pastors (who are paid from tithe money) are pushing.  I go to a church where a lot of people are poor or close to it and I hope that they aren't expected to tithe before taking care of their basic needs.


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## PaperClip (Feb 11, 2008)

chellero said:


> I don't know. I think that a lot of people find themselves in this situation. After you pay for health insurance, mortgage, food, taxes and shelter then there may not be enough left for some folks to tithe. That's one of the reasons that I am trying to figure out if tithing is really still required, or if it's just something that churches and pastors (who are paid from tithe money) are pushing. I go to a church where a lot of people are poor or close to it and I hope that they aren't expected to tithe before taking care of their basic needs.


 
That's why tithing is 10 percent of what one has, not a specific amount. So if all you have is 50 cent, then your tithe is a NICKEL! A NICKEL!!!!! Isn't the Lord worth the first of 50 CENT? The principle is the same. THE LORD IS PRICELESS and WORTHY to have our first, our best. That's how tithing is a form of worship: it's giving the Lord your FIRST and your BEST.


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## kally (Feb 11, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> 1. FAITH. I'm a WITNESS that the Lord will provide. Even when I was laid off with my own apt., the rent was paid, the car note paid, the utilities paid, I ate good EVERYDAY (and it shows!)
> 
> 2. WISE STEWARDSHIP. Especially as a full-time college student, I have learned what a REAL NEED is and what a REAL WANT is. I've learned to stop buying what I want and begging for what I need. I've learned that instant gratification isn't worth it.
> 
> ...



I am a firm believer in blessing from God. How did this all come about for you? Did people lend you the money, Did you received a unsupected check? Were you able to for go a month in payments?

Right now I work pt in the morning. and go to schol in the evenings. I was going to take on a part time job, but can't mentally handle it. I just don't know what to do.

I want to tithe though and believe in it. Though there are times when I am still confused about it, and what really happens if you don't.


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## jturner7156 (Feb 11, 2008)

kally said:


> *if I tithe* I literally would be left with less then 50 bucks and I only get paid on the 15th and 31 of each month. That does not included gas and food.
> 
> How does one live off of that?


 
As RR said, it comes down to faith. I triple dog dare you to pay your 10%coming up on the 15th, even if it causes you to come up short on a bill and see how God moves. Just try him, one time at least. I am only telling you this b/c I know how God moves, go back and read my previous post !


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## chellero (Feb 11, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> That's why tithing is 10 percent of what one has, not a specific amount. So if all you have is 50 cent, then your tithe is a NICKEL! A NICKEL!!!!! Isn't the Lord worth the first of 50 CENT? The principle is the same. THE LORD IS PRICELESS and WORTHY to have our first, our best. That's how tithing is a form of worship: it's giving the Lord your FIRST and your BEST.




I understand your point.  But for some that nickle is the difference between feeding your children a meal or letting them go hungry.  I could see if the churches consistently gave some of the tithes to those who are needy.  But most of the churches that I've seen aren't using the tithe money in a way that helps the poor, yet the pastors are beating them upside the head with "will a man rob God," before driving home in the benz that he bought with his big salary to the mansion that was also paid for with God's money.


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## kally (Feb 11, 2008)

chellero said:


> I don't know. I think that a lot of people find themselves in this situation.  After you pay for health insurance, mortgage, food, taxes and shelter then there may not be enough left for some folks to tithe.  That's one of the reasons that I am trying to figure out if tithing is really still required, or if it's just something that churches and pastors (who are paid from tithe money) are pushing.  I go to a church where a lot of people are poor or close to it and I hope that they aren't expected to tithe before taking care of their basic needs.




Yeah this is what I am struggling with as well. Its like i want to but if I do, then I will be beyond broke. maybe my faith in that area is not strong enough. I don't know I am to afraid to go out on a limb and try it. 

For instance. if I tithe out of the next check I will have next to nothing left, however I do have a income tax check coming. But would not I be receiving that money if I tithed or not.?So that is not like it a abundance of money coming my way unexpected.


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## jturner7156 (Feb 11, 2008)

chellero said:


> I don't know. I think that a lot of people find themselves in this situation. After you pay for health insurance, mortgage, food, taxes and shelter then there may not be enough left for some folks to tithe. That's one of the reasons that I am trying to figure out if tithing is really still required, or *if it's just something that churches and pastors (who are paid from tithe money) are pushing*. I go to a church where a lot of people are poor or close to it and I hope that they aren't expected to tithe before taking care of their basic needs.


 
As I said in one of my previous posts, I believe tithing has nothing to do with the pastors, it is strictly between you and God.


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## kally (Feb 11, 2008)

jturner7156 said:


> As RR said, it comes down to faith. I triple dog dare you to pay your 10%coming up on the 15th, even if it causes you to come up short on a bill and see how God moves. Just try him, one time at least. I am only telling you this b/c I know how God moves, go back and read my previous post !



Sigh ok I will except your challenge. But if I am stapped for cash I am taken up a LHCF donation.


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## jturner7156 (Feb 11, 2008)

kally said:


> Sigh ok I will except your challenge. But if I am stapped for cash I am taken up a LHCF donation.


 
Ok then, If I have to, I will put you a couuple dollars in your paypal account...Pinky Swear !


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## chellero (Feb 11, 2008)

kally said:


> Yeah this is what I am struggling with as well. Its like i want to but if I do, then I will be beyond broke. maybe my faith in that area is not strong enough. I don't know I am to afraid to go out on a limb and try it.
> 
> For instance. if I tithe out of the next check I will have next to nothing left, however I do have a income tax check coming. But would not I be receiving that money if I tithed or not.?So that is not like it a abundance of money coming my way unexpected.




If you feel that tithing is still required then you should certainly try to do so.  I know that we can always find ways to make additional money or to cut back on our expenses, but if you really can't manage it then God knows that.    I do know that we are to be good stewards of our money, and that it does not make sense to be getting evicted, or sitting in a dark apartment with no food and no heat in the winter because you tithed instead of paying your bills.


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## kally (Feb 11, 2008)

jturner7156 said:


> Ok then, If I have to, I will put you a couuple dollars in your paypal account...Pinky Swear !



Aww how sweet you don't have to. I really do need to do try it and step out on faith and see what happens.
I will def let you all know the outcome.


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## PaperClip (Feb 11, 2008)

kally said:


> I am a firm believer in blessing from God. How did this all come about for you? Did people lend you the money, Did you received a unsupected check? Were you able to for go a month in payments?
> 
> Right now I work pt in the morning. and go to schol in the evenings. I was going to take on a part time job, but can't mentally handle it. I just don't know what to do.
> 
> I want to tithe though and believe in it. Though there are times when I am still confused about it, and what really happens if you don't.


 
The second layoff from a full-time position, I had my own place, I was in graduate school part time (got some financial aid). Got a severance (no unemployment) and since I was at that job only 3 years, I didn't get a lot of money. Got laid off in June and lived off the severance and people blessed me (no loans) with basic necessities. I did little side gigs and I was steady looking for another job as well. A job didn't come through and I was being strongly encouraged to return to school full-time, esp. since it was only me (no other responsibilities). The phrase was this: when I eat, my whole house eats" so it wasn't going to take that much money to take care of me. 

Went to school and applied for EVERY scholarship and graduate assistantships and thanks be to the Lord Jesus Christ, I got a graduate assistantship, which meant tuition paid and a stipend. Along with that, I taught courses as an adjunct instructor at a community college. The Lord blessed me and He blessed the works of my hands.

I got laid off in 2003. I've been a full-time student since that time. I will finish my doctorate in education this year. This was the Lord's plan and He has provided every step of the way. The Lord gave me favor with the building owner and I have not missed a rent payment AT ALL. I was late at times, but never missed a month. The car got paid off. 

When I talk about sacrifice and avoiding instant gratification? I don't have cable TV (and I don't miss it). Plus, it would be dumb for me to have cable TV because either I would watch it all the time (and not get any studying done) or I would NEVER watch it and it would be a waste of money. I get first-run DVDs from the PUBLIC LIBRARY so no more paying Blockbuster. 

I got more blessings to praise God for: when I first got laid off, my hair was relaxed and I had a WEEKLY appointment in that chair. Do you know that my hairdressed DID MY HAIR FREE for a LONG, LONG TIME? Like YEARS? I gave her money when I had it and there were times when she wouldn't even take it. She did my hair until she moved out of state and I went natural.

Can't NOBODY tell me that tithing is form of worship and the LORD RESPONDS TO IT!!!! My God! My God! HALLELUJAH!!

So Kally, I can't really tell you what happens when you don't tithe because I really don't want to know. I can tell you EMPHATICALLY that tithing opens the Lord's heart and hand.


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## Southernbella. (Feb 11, 2008)

Kally, give what you have. Even back when tithing was law, not everyone was expected to tithe, and the poor even received one of the tithes.

Give what is in your heart to give. God blesses us because He is awesome like that, not because of what we do or don't give. He knows your heart, and he knows what you do and don't have.

Besides, tithing was never about receiving a blessing, it was about BEING a blessing. You can be a blessing no matter what is in your bank account.


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## hair_wit_favor (Feb 11, 2008)

I'm a tither!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I love to tithe and to give !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm a tither and a sower! 


That's all I got to say....


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## kally (Feb 11, 2008)

chellero said:


> If you feel that tithing is still required then you should certainly try to do so.  I know that we can always find ways to make additional money or to cut back on our expenses, but if you really can't manage it then God knows that.    I do know that we are to be good stewards of our money, and that it does not make sense to be getting evicted, or sitting in a dark apartment with no food and no heat in the winter because you tithed instead of paying your bills.



Yeah he does, However when i do tithe I tithe to charities, because for one thing I don't belong to a church and secondly that is were the money is suppose to be  going to any ways. 

God has been so good, kind, Patient and loving towards me. That I really do feel guilty not tithing.


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## PaperClip (Feb 11, 2008)

chellero said:


> I understand your point. But for some that nickle is the difference between feeding your children a meal or letting them go hungry. I could see if the churches consistently gave some of the tithes to those who are needy. But most of the churches that I've seen aren't using the tithe money in a way that helps the poor, yet the pastors are beating them upside the head with "will a man rob God," before driving home in the benz that he bought with his big salary to the mansion that was also paid for with God's money.


 
Two quick points: 

1. A nickel isn't the difference. That difference could be made up by making different choices in another part of that family's life. It's always that extreme answer about starvation and homelesness that's brought up re. tithing. I know too many stories where a person/family claimed to not have the money to tithe but they had money for CABLE and PlayStations and $100 shoes. 

2. Because tithing is personal, an individual act of WORSHIP, it kind of doesn't matter what the church does with the money. Please hear me: that doesn't mean that the church should not be accountable concerning finances because it CERTAINLY DOES. But the larger point is that when you OBEY in sincerity, the Lord sees your actions (and the actions of the thieving pastor) and judge accordingly. I thank the Lord that I attend a church where I don't have to worry about this but I tell you this, if I hear about my pastor on the news tonight about some money being funny (God forbid), I can still stand before the Lord God Almighty on Judgement Day and declare that He would find me faithful in this... I did what *I* was supposed to do re. tithing.


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## jturner7156 (Feb 11, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> The second layoff from a full-time position, I had my own place, I was in graduate school part time (got some financial aid). Got a severance (no unemployment) and since I was at that job only 3 years, I didn't get a lot of money. Got laid off in June and lived off the severance and people blessed me (no loans) with basic necessities. I did little side gigs and I was steady looking for another job as well. A job didn't come through and I was being strongly encouraged to return to school full-time, esp. since it was only me (no other responsibilities). The phrase was this: when I eat, my whole house eats" so it wasn't going to take that much money to take care of me.
> 
> Went to school and applied for EVERY scholarship and graduate assistantships and thanks be to the Lord Jesus Christ, I got a graduate assistantship, which meant tuition paid and a stipend. Along with that, I taught courses as an adjunct instructor at a community college. The Lord blessed me and He blessed the works of my hands.
> 
> ...


 
Ooooh girl, I got chills reading your post b/c I know the goodness of God as well. Since I became a tither (no turning back), I have no worries, none. At first, I made it about the money, now I see it on a whole different level. I hate to repeat myself but the 1st *Sunday* I paid my tithes I found out about a postition I would have knew nothing about that following *Thursday*. Now my income has *LITERALLY DOUBLED! My GOD, MY GOD!!!!!*


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## PaperClip (Feb 11, 2008)

kally said:


> Sigh ok I will except your challenge. But if I am stapped for cash I am taken up a LHCF donation.


 
Well, first off, don't call it a challenge. Consider it a form of WORSHIP unto the Lord. And you want to receive your blessing from the LORD, not LCHF. Can't NOBODY beat the Lord giving! NOBODY!


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## PaperClip (Feb 11, 2008)

chellero said:


> If you feel that tithing is still required then you should certainly try to do so. I know that we can always find ways to make additional money or to cut back on our expenses, but if you really can't manage it then God knows that.  I do know that we are to be good stewards of our money, and that it does not make sense to be getting evicted, or sitting in a dark apartment with no food and no heat in the winter because you tithed instead of paying your bills.


 
Of course not. But honestly, I think that's the rare exception and not the rule. I am FULLY PERSUADED that the Lord will not abandon a tither like that.


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## Nice & Wavy (Feb 11, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> The second layoff from a full-time position, I had my own place, I was in graduate school part time (got some financial aid). Got a severance (no unemployment) and since I was at that job only 3 years, I didn't get a lot of money. Got laid off in June and lived off the severance and people blessed me (no loans) with basic necessities. I did little side gigs and I was steady looking for another job as well. A job didn't come through and I was being strongly encouraged to return to school full-time, esp. since it was only me (no other responsibilities). The phrase was this: when I eat, my whole house eats" so it wasn't going to take that much money to take care of me.
> 
> Went to school and applied for EVERY scholarship and graduate assistantships and thanks be to the Lord Jesus Christ, I got a graduate assistantship, which meant tuition paid and a stipend. Along with that, I taught courses as an adjunct instructor at a community college. The Lord blessed me and He blessed the works of my hands.
> 
> ...


 
Girl....my spirit leaped when I read that testimony!!!!

Hallelujah....I'm right there with you!


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## Southernbella. (Feb 11, 2008)

kally said:


> Yeah he does, However when i do tithe I tithe to charities, because for one thing I don't belong to a church and secondly that is were the money is suppose to be going to any ways.
> 
> God has been so good, kind, Patient and loving towards me. That I really do feel guilty not tithing.


 
So you're practicing freewill giving, which is exactly what we are called to do. Tithing requires giving 10% to the priest, who then takes it into the storehouse to be used to support God's people.

You are blessed, Kally, and you will continue to be blessed. You obviously have a heart to bless others, and that is worth a whole lot!


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## Nice & Wavy (Feb 11, 2008)

jturner7156 said:


> Ooooh girl, I got chills reading your post b/c I know the goodness of God as well. Since I became a tither (no turning back), I have no worries, none. At first, I made it about the money, now I see it on a whole different level. I hate to repeat myself but the 1st *Sunday* I paid my tithes I found out about a postition I would have knew nothing about that following *Thursday*. Now my income has *LITERALLY DOUBLED! My GOD, MY GOD!!!!!*


 
Doubled income.....praise the Lord!


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## PaperClip (Feb 11, 2008)

kally said:


> Yeah he does, However when i do tithe I tithe to charities, because for one thing I don't belong to a church and secondly that is were the money is suppose to be going to any ways.
> 
> God has been so good, kind, Patient and loving towards me. That I really do feel guilty not tithing.


 
Seek the Lord for a local church body.... The Lord honors giving to various charities and such.... We all need a local church body and to attend church on a REGULAR/WEEKLY BASIS if not for this one reason: JESUS DID IT!

Luke 4:16: "16-21He came to Nazareth where he had been reared. *As he always did on the Sabbath, he went to the meeting place.* When he stood up to read, he was handed the scroll of the prophet Isaiah. (The Message)

And just like today, there were probably plenty of synagogues to go to.... Jesus found ONE synagogue that would welcome Him.

We have no excuse....


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## PaperClip (Feb 11, 2008)

jturner7156 said:


> Ooooh girl, I got chills reading your post b/c I know the goodness of God as well. Since I became a tither (no turning back), I have no worries, none. At first, I made it about the money, now I see it on a whole different level. I hate to repeat myself but the 1st *Sunday* I paid my tithes I found out about a postition I would have knew nothing about that following *Thursday*. Now my income has *LITERALLY DOUBLED! My GOD, MY GOD!!!!!*


 
Look at God....


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## Monilove122 (Feb 11, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Two quick points:
> 
> 1. A nickel isn't the difference. That difference could be made up by making different choices in another part of that family's life. It's always that extreme answer about starvation and homelesness that's brought up re. tithing. I know too many stories where a person/family claimed to not have the money to tithe but they had money for CABLE and PlayStations and $100 shoes.
> 
> *2. Because tithing is personal, an individual act of WORSHIP, it kind of doesn't matter what the church does with the money. Please hear me: that doesn't mean that the church should not be accountable concerning finances because it CERTAINLY DOES. But the larger point is that when you OBEY in sincerity, the Lord sees your actions (and the actions of the thieving pastor) and judge accordingly. I thank the Lord that I attend a church where I don't have to worry about this but I tell you this, if I hear about my pastor on the news tonight about some money being funny (God forbid), I can still stand before the Lord God Almighty on Judgement Day and declare that He would find me faithful in this... I did what I was supposed to do re. tithing.*




I have read ALMOST  this entire thread (y'all are some talking sistas but I have enjoyed it thoroughly) and out of all of the awesome conversation that has gone on I can truly say that the bolded is one that I tell folks all the time when they bring up churches misusing and abusing the money of the church.  If they do yes, it's messed up BUT it doesn't block your blessing.  If I give my 10% (and yes, I believe according to the word that you are to give 10% of your gross earnings and anything else that is an increase i.e. I tithe from my tax refund) or freewill giving or whatever it is one would like to call it and a church swindles my money and runs off with it they will have to answer to that but the curse that will follow those people who stole from God will not touch me because of the covenant I made with God to tithe.  I guess I also don't see what the big debate is about, not all but most of us give our waiters and waitresses 10-15% when we go to a restaurant but we gripe about giving 10% to God from whom all our blessings flow.  Title it what you will but the only way to have more than enough is to GIVE.  I have witnessed through my own giving and my Mom's giving that tithing will bless you.  Tithing can break generational curses. 

On another note - I know one thing, I am the Financial Administrator at my church and for all of those who think the Pastors get everything - if the church is run the way it's supposed to, the Pastor shouldn't even be able to sign a check or have exclusive access to the bank account(s).  For most churches it isn't the money train many think it is not to mention the job my Pastor does is full-time and not one I would ever want to have.  Hearing peoples problems all the time, attending funerals, holding the hand of someone as they pass away and keeping it together as you comfort and pray for the bereaved family.  I mean it ain't easy and  you really have to be called to do it so why shouldn't that person be paid.

I need to start back to like page 17 to read some more but again, I have enjoyed this thread!!!!


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## Nice & Wavy (Feb 11, 2008)

Monilove122 said:


> [/b]
> 
> I have read ALMOST  this entire thread (y'all are some talking sistas but I have enjoyed it thoroughly) and out of all of the awesome conversation that has gone on I can truly say that the bolded is one that I tell folks all the time when they bring up churches misusing and abusing the money of the church. If they do yes, it's messed up BUT it doesn't block your blessing. If I give my 10% (and yes, I believe according to the word that you are to give 10% of your gross earnings and anything else that is an increase i.e. I tithe from my tax refund) or freewill giving or whatever it is one would like to call it and a church swindles my money and runs off with it they will have to answer to that but the curse that will follow those people who stole from God will not touch me because of the covenant I made with God to tithe. I guess I also don't see what the big debate is about, not all but most of us give our waiters and waitresses 10-15% when we go to a restaurant but we gripe about giving 10% to God from whom all our blessings flow. Title it what you will but the only way to have more than enough is to GIVE. I have witnessed through my own giving and my Mom's giving that tithing will bless you. Tithing can break generational curses.
> 
> ...


 
I appreciate you reading and then clarifiying some things that maybe some people don't realize happens in church, behind the scenes.  I too work for pastors and I see all the stuff that goes on.  

I also appreciate that you bring the point of tithing to a different level by giving of your testimony...you are a blessing indeed!

We can talk, though..right?


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## kally (Feb 12, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> The second layoff from a full-time position, I had my own place, I was in graduate school part time (got some financial aid). Got a severance (no unemployment) and since I was at that job only 3 years, I didn't get a lot of money. Got laid off in June and lived off the severance and people blessed me (no loans) with basic necessities. I did little side gigs and I was steady looking for another job as well. A job didn't come through and I was being strongly encouraged to return to school full-time, esp. since it was only me (no other responsibilities). The phrase was this: when I eat, my whole house eats" so it wasn't going to take that much money to take care of me.
> 
> Went to school and applied for EVERY scholarship and graduate assistantships and thanks be to the Lord Jesus Christ, I got a graduate assistantship, which meant tuition paid and a stipend. Along with that, I taught courses as an adjunct instructor at a community college. The Lord blessed me and He blessed the works of my hands.
> 
> ...



God is good is not he. I love it when he works things like this out for people. I know for me God gives my plenty of blessing when I comes to shopping. You would no believe the deals the Gods works out for me. 

Just this weekend. I went to a gabriell Brother we have here. Their winter items were on clearance. It was half off the red tag price. I found shirt for lik# 3,5 &7 dollars that were to be half off that. Then I get to the cash register and they were marked down even further to like 1 and two dollars a piece. So I was geeting them for like 5ocent and a dollar. I stocked up on 8 items and paid like less then 15.00 for everything.


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## kally (Feb 12, 2008)

lauren450 said:


> Kally, give what you have. Even back when tithing was law, not everyone was expected to tithe, and the poor even received one of the tithes.
> 
> Give what is in your heart to give. God blesses us because He is awesome like that, not because of what we do or don't give. He knows your heart, and he knows what you do and don't have.
> 
> Besides, tithing was never about receiving a blessing, it was about BEING a blessing. You can be a blessing no matter what is in your bank account.



I truely believe that it does have to come form the heart and not seen as paying another bill.


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## kally (Feb 12, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Well, first off, don't call it a challenge. Consider it a form of WORSHIP unto the Lord. And you want to receive your blessing from the LORD, not LCHF. Can't NOBODY beat the Lord giving! NOBODY!



I was just joking . I know God is my main source.


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## kally (Feb 12, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Seek the Lord for a local church body.... The Lord honors giving to various charities and such.... We all need a local church body and to attend church on a REGULAR/WEEKLY BASIS if not for this one reason: JESUS DID IT!
> 
> Luke 4:16: "16-21He came to Nazareth where he had been reared. *As he always did on the Sabbath, he went to the meeting place.* When he stood up to read, he was handed the scroll of the prophet Isaiah. (The Message)
> 
> ...



My history with churches have not been good. I have been burned, mislead, used. You name it. I could go on for hours about what happened. I know this is no excuse to stay away, I have to keep going and I must admit it is laziness as well.


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## cheetarah1980 (Feb 12, 2008)

chellero said:


> I don't know. I think that a lot of people find themselves in this situation. After you pay for health insurance, mortgage, food, taxes and shelter then there may not be enough left for some folks to tithe. That's one of the reasons that I am trying to figure out if tithing is really still required, or if it's just something that churches and pastors (who are paid from tithe money) are pushing. I go to a church where a lot of people are poor or close to it and *I hope that they aren't expected to tithe before taking care of their basic needs*.


 
While I'm not saying that the tithe is required (I already stated my opinion earlier in this thread), but I would like to give some insight on the bolded part.  When I came into the knowledge of tithing (or the modern day concept), I resisted doing so for over a year for the same reason you stated.  I would be left with little to nothing to live on afterward.  Eventually I did begin to tithe although I was making the same salary, and lo and behold I actually had more breathing room than I did before.  I suddenly realized that the reason why I always assumed I'd be broke if I tithed is because I was always thinking of the tithe as another expense AFTER everything else.  After rent, after food, after insurance, after utilities.  Why would I consider my gift to God AFTER everything else when He's the one who provides the means in the first place.  Once I took care of all of my "earthly" needs God got the leftover. When I got promoted, got a raise and moved I made the conscious decision to give to God first and then structure my finances off the remaining 90%.  I tailored my lifestyle around tithing, instead of the other way around.  Trust me, it's much easier to tithe when you don't even think about having that money in the first place. Remember we are to offer God our first fruits, not what's leftover after we've taken our share.  Just a thought.


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## Monilove122 (Feb 13, 2008)

kally said:


> My history with churches have not been good. I have been burned, mislead, used. You name it. I could go on for hours about what happened. I know this is no excuse to stay away, I have to keep going and I must admit it is laziness as well.


 
Kally - I am SO sorry that you have been so used in a place where we should go to be healed and loved.  But remember, that everyone that goes to church is not saved and is there for the wrong reasons so don't think just because it's church you have to let your guard down (not saying that you have just generally speaking).  I've seen people get hurt too and it's because they think "oh, I'm at church people are different here" and while it's a great concept and how it should be it's not how it is.  I can honestly say I've never been hurt in church but it's because the same discretion and discernment I use *outside* of church I use *in* church.  Now do I mean walk around with a chip on your shoulder...of course not cause that is not of God but, the minute you feel something is not right, act on it.  For instance, a friend of mine in church got a phone call from a lady that goes to our church that she didn't really know saying that my friend's son hit this ladies car and scratched it all up.  The lady then says, we need to handle this the christian way and you need to pay for my car to be fixed.  Perfect opportunity for someone to be used but, what did my friend tell her.  "I'm sorry but you have left the church grounds and I do not know if this happened today, yesterday, or last week therefore I cannot pay for any damages I am not certain were caused by my child.  However, if he did indeed cause damage to your car the first step would be to file a police report." The woman then said I'm calling your Pastor cause this ain't right.  (I still don't get that)  Keep in mind my friend didn't even remember who was parked beside her and doesn't really know this woman like that.  Turns out that the woman lied (she confessed).  Now, had my friend just done it because according to this girl it was the "christian thing to do" she would have been burned by someone in the church.  

I know I'm long-winded (LOL), but I've seen too many times where people have not been on guard just because it's church and not saying that you are one of those people but if you are, maybe this will bless you or someone else.  Pray for discernment so God can open your eyes to see who means you well and come to you in His name and those who are deliberately trying to cause deception and discension to you and the church.  

Be Blessed!


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## Monilove122 (Feb 13, 2008)

Nice & Wavy said:


> I appreciate you reading and then clarifiying some things that maybe some people don't realize happens in church, behind the scenes. I too work for pastors and I see all the stuff that goes on.
> 
> I also appreciate that you bring the point of tithing to a different level by giving of your testimony...you are a blessing indeed!
> 
> We can talk, though..right?


 
It's so much stuff that goes on behind the scenes that people don't know about when it comes to the finances of a church. I've said before how I know of a Pastor that drives a new luxury car every 2 years and folks would always run their mouth about the Pastor using church money to ride in such a nice car. What they didn't know was that one of the members of the church OWNED a dealership for luxury cars and would GIVE the Pastor a new car every couple years. It was a gift, the first time the Pastor was given this car he cried like a baby it was such a shock. I know at my church we had a member who owned a clothing store and would give the Pastor brand new NICE clothes all the time. People would talk about his brand name suits and custom made robes and wonder what in the world. I just say that to say everything is not always what it seems. There are so many people willing to bless the men and women of God. My Pastor is full-time but hasn't had a raise in 7 years and full time for him is just about 24/7, none of us would want that schedule. So, if the Pastor is truly one led by God people will just bless him/her. 

And yes, y'all are some talking sistas (or should I include myself and say WE, )


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## PaperClip (Feb 13, 2008)

Monilove122 said:


> Kally - I am SO sorry that you have been so used in a place where we should go to be healed and loved. But remember, that everyone that goes to church is not saved and is there for the wrong reasons so don't think just because it's church you have to let your guard down (not saying that you have just generally speaking). I've seen people get hurt too and it's because they think "oh, I'm at church people are different here" and while it's a great concept and how it should be it's not how it is. I can honestly say I've never been hurt in church but it's because the same discretion and discernment I use *outside* of church I use *in* church. Now do I mean walk around with a chip on your shoulder...of course not cause that is not of God but, the minute you feel something is not right, act on it. For instance, a friend of mine in church got a phone call from a lady that goes to our church that she didn't really know saying that my friend's son hit this ladies car and scratched it all up. The lady then says, we need to handle this the christian way and you need to pay for my car to be fixed. Perfect opportunity for someone to be used but, what did my friend tell her. "I'm sorry but you have left the church grounds and I do not know if this happened today, yesterday, or last week therefore I cannot pay for any damages I am not certain were caused by my child. However, if he did indeed cause damage to your car the first step would be to file a police report." The woman then said I'm calling your Pastor cause this ain't right. (I still don't get that) Keep in mind my friend didn't even remember who was parked beside her and doesn't really know this woman like that. Turns out that the woman lied (she confessed). Now, had my friend just done it because according to this girl it was the "christian thing to do" she would have been burned by someone in the church.
> 
> I know I'm long-winded (LOL), but I've seen too many times where people have not been on guard just because it's church and not saying that you are one of those people but if you are, maybe this will bless you or someone else. Pray for discernment so God can open your eyes to see who means you well and come to you in His name and those who are deliberately trying to cause deception and discension to you and the church.
> 
> Be Blessed!


 
Your friend is better than me because my flesh would have wanted to have some words with her face to face AND I would have told her to call the pastor, the police, and the news media so that ALL would be VERY CLEAR on what will and will NOT be manipulated....

How did that lady get your friend's number ANYWAY? (RR puts on detective hat)

Hahahahahah!!!!! I'm sorry, dear Lord Jesus....


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## Nice & Wavy (Feb 13, 2008)

Monilove122 said:


> It's so much stuff that goes on behind the scenes that people don't know about when it comes to the finances of a church. I've said before how I know of a Pastor that drives a new luxury car every 2 years and folks would always run their mouth about the Pastor using church money to ride in such a nice car. What they didn't know was that one of the members of the church OWNED a dealership for luxury cars and would GIVE the Pastor a new car every couple years. It was a gift, the first time the Pastor was given this car he cried like a baby it was such a shock. I know at my church we had a member who owned a clothing store and would give the Pastor brand new NICE clothes all the time. People would talk about his brand name suits and custom made robes and wonder what in the world. I just say that to say everything is not always what it seems. There are so many people willing to bless the men and women of God. My Pastor is full-time but hasn't had a raise in 7 years and full time for him is just about 24/7, none of us would want that schedule. So, if the Pastor is truly one led by God people will just bless him/her.
> 
> And yes, y'all are some talking sistas (or should I include myself and say WE, )


 
I can appreciate people like the ones you mentioned.  They aren't stingy with their blessings...they share it with their pastor and I find that awesome!!!

Yes....include yourself girl.....


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## Monilove122 (Feb 13, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Your friend is better than me because my flesh would have wanted to have some words with her face to face AND I would have told her to call the pastor, the police, and the news media so that ALL would be VERY CLEAR on what will and will NOT be manipulated....
> 
> How did that lady get your friend's number ANYWAY? (RR puts on detective hat)
> 
> Hahahahahah!!!!! I'm sorry, dear Lord Jesus....


 
Girl I'm with you but that's just my friend, she's usually calm like that.  

You are too funny about the number - she runs the church daycare so it's easy to get her number.  Now had it been my number she really would have been doing some digging and this scenario would have gone SLIGHTLY different.


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