# SIngle Church woment and relationship drama



## Choclatcotton (Apr 5, 2010)

What is it with single church women and relationships?  Seems like they cant stand to see someone else happy.  I had a friend that says so much drama happened during her courtship and marriage with single women, that she was relieved to finally get married and get away.  You might have those who felt like "God showed me him first", or "go ahead, it aint gona work anyway", "there's no God in it."


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## BlkOnyx488 (Apr 5, 2010)

Your true friends always appear when you are at your happiest.
It's easy to find people willing to be around when you are miserable, but let joy enter your life those same people can become your biggest haters.

Just allow God to lead you and he will also lead you to more supportive true friends
be blessed


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## aribell (Apr 5, 2010)

BlkOnyx488 said:


> Y*our true friends always appear when you are at your happiest.
> It's easy to find people willing to be around when you are miserable, but let joy enter your life those same people can become your biggest haters.
> *
> Just allow God to lead you and he will also lead you to more supportive true friends
> be blessed



Oh my gosh how this is true!  Tell me why my "bff" was so there when I was in a bad way, but as soon as I started being happy, moving forward, etc., she's nowhere to be found.

Anyway!  Um...I don't know about the single church women issue.  I do remember that there was a guy bible study teacher who got engaged.  And apparently _several_ young women approached him to say that God had told them that he was _their _husband (not his fiance's).  I think that there can be waaay too much overspiritualization and honestly immaturity in young Christian circles.  "Prayer" takes the place of common sense.  And people haven't really learned the difference between God's voice and their own.

Add to that the disparity between the number of Christian men and women, especially in black churches, and I can see how it all creates a perfect storm for drama.


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## Glib Gurl (Apr 5, 2010)

ITA with Nicola - plus I think it's a lot of frustration on the part of the women (physical, emotional, and spiritual). They have been told for years that once they "get themselves together" and "accomplish what God has for you to do as a single," that they will find, er, excuse me, be found by  Mr. Perfect. So they immerse themselves in church - weekly Bible study, usher board, praise team, pay their tithes and offerings, etc., etc. Yet, they still find themselves among a sea of other single women in the congregation fighting over that one single man.  I don't know who is to blame for this, but Christian women have been hoodwinked into thinking that being active in church invokes some sort of quid pro quo with God . . . like He _has_ to send you a good mate since you're doing so much good work in the church. What they don't tell you is that you cannot MAKE God do anything . . . His will is His will, and His timing is His timing.


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## Keen (Apr 5, 2010)

One of my single guy friend told me that he felt so much pressure from the single ladies at his church that he stopped participating in activities outside of regular church service. It was always xyz likes him, ABC was trying to set it up. He felt cornered so he just avoid all of them. He said he didn't want to date anyone at his church because it could be too much drama. That church had a lot of young single people so maybe it's different there.


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## nathansgirl1908 (Apr 6, 2010)

nicola.kirwan said:


> I think that there can be waaay too much overspiritualization and honestly immaturity in young Christian circles.  "Prayer" takes the place of common sense.



This.



The above statement is one reason why I stay away from "single ministries', and from congregations that have a large young Christian population.  In my experience the basis of everything is "getting a man."  And many people in these circles become almost fanatical and it just causes excessive drama.


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## nathansgirl1908 (Apr 6, 2010)

Glib Gurl said:


> ITA with Nicola - plus I think it's a lot of frustration on the part of the women (physical, emotional, and spiritual). They have been told for years that once they "get themselves together" and "accomplish what God has for you to do as a single," that they will find, er, excuse me, be found by  Mr. Perfect. So they immerse themselves in church - weekly Bible study, usher board, praise team, pay their tithes and offerings, etc., etc. Yet, they still find themselves among a sea of other single women in the congregation fighting over that one single man.  I don't know who is to blame for this, but Christian women have been hoodwinked into thinking that being active in church invokes some sort of quid pro quo with God . . . like He _has_ to send you a good mate since you're doing so much good work in the church. What they don't tell you is that you cannot MAKE God do anything . . . His will is His will, and His timing is His timing.


I made reference to this in another thread.  Part of the problem is that they are doing that for the main reason of "being found" instead of doing it because they really want to honor God.  I find it pretty sickening to say the least.  I'm sure that sounds judgmental, but at this point I don't care.  

Two weeks ago I had a status message on my Facebook page that garnered a great deal of commentary:
    "Stop stressing and praying for him to come.  You can attend as many    conferences as you want about getting ready to be a wife.  The bottom line is that he won't come until it is time, IF he is meant to come. God makes the decision, not you, and you can't rush the process."

But I do want to add that I blame many church ministers and such for this problem.  The things you stated above are the messages that are pounded into the heads of single women in these churches.  The reality is that you won't have a mate until it is time.


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## mscocoface (Apr 6, 2010)

Singles ministries can be a real trip.  I never can understand why they are so drama filled particularly when it should be God filled.

I run to the hills when someone tells me God told me.......This statement makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.  I use to be quiet when I would here that now I open my mouth and loudly ask well did God tell the other person?


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## Bunny77 (Apr 6, 2010)

Oh, so much I could say in so many areas here...    But I tend to talk too much, so I'm gonna stay quiet.   

Maybe.


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## HoneyA (Apr 6, 2010)

^^^^I am with you Bunny because there is a WHOLE lot that could be said here. What I will say is that all the time I have been going to church, too much focus has been placed on catching a husband or on "getting married". All that I read here and hear from my Christian friends and single ladies in other churches confirms it and it is sad.


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## nathansgirl1908 (Apr 6, 2010)

HoneyA said:


> ^^^^I am with you Bunny because there is a WHOLE lot that could be said here. What I will say is that all the time I have been going to church, too much focus has been placed on catching a husband or on "getting married". All that I read here and hear from my Christian friends and single ladies in other churches confirms it and it is sad.



Well said.


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## SvelteVelvet (Apr 6, 2010)

_*Peeking in*_

Great topic of discussion and good points were raised. I feel the awareness of this issue is very important for single women who are going to church with the sincerity of assembling, praising and serving God, and growing spiritually. Because even if you are not that women in church placing yourself there to be found, you will be confused as one, by both the women who are placing themselves to be found and by the men. Even the married Ministers, Pastors, Bishops, and their wives.

So for *US* there really is a way that we must conduct ourselves in an environment where this 'spirit' is. You'll never find a 'perfect' congregation, but as you grow spiritually you will learn how to coexist in a way where it does not affect you.

Last thing I'll say on this, *and this is just my opinion*. The women who are going to church with this focus, are soooo selling themselves short! I can't wrap my mind around the collective ignorance because it's so backwards. I believe it's low self-esteem and women who continue to let a physical man validate her worth will always deal with low self-esteem. I do truly believe that God wants us to be mated, but the best way for us to be found is to be TRULY worshipping and serving God because THIS is when we are at our spiritual, emotional, even physical best. The brightest glow a woman can have comes from the Holy Spirit. There is nothing more attractive to a man who truly has Christ dwelling in him than a woman who truly has Christ dwelling in her. 

The END.


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## Prudent1 (Apr 6, 2010)

Bunny77 said:


> Oh, so much I could say in so many areas here...  But I tend to talk too much, so I'm gonna stay quiet.
> 
> Maybe.


  'nuff said Bunny77



SvelteVelvet said:


> _*Peeking in*_
> 
> Great topic of discussion and good points were raised. I feel the awareness of this issue* is very important for single women who are going* *to church with the sincerity of assembling, praising and serving* *God, and growing spiritually*. Because even if you are not that women in church placing yourself there to be found, you will be confused as one, by both the women who are placing themselves to be found and by the men. Even the married Ministers, Pastors, Bishops, and their wives.
> 
> ...


ITA especially with the bolded. I remember a few years back after years (plural ladies) of prayer for a new church home I found the church I currently attend. I ran into a couple I knew from my old church who asked how things were going. I was _so_ excited as I explained all of the ministries that were present for all age groups. I started to talk about the events the single's ministry had planned when the husband rolled his eyes and interjected. He proceeded to tell me how that wasn't a good enough reason to have left the church. That is not what the activities we have are like and had nothing to do with me leaving the church. I have never used the church as a meet and greet. Even when I was clubbing and living outside of God's will I was not going to church to meet some man. All joking aside- I've never been that hard up for male attention.



nathansgirl1908 said:


> This.
> 
> 
> 
> The above statement is one reason why I stay away from "single ministries', and from congregations that have a large *young* Christian population. In my experience the basis of everything is "getting a man." And many people in these circles become almost fanatical and it just causes excessive drama.


LOL @ young. I want you to know some of the _chronologically challenged_ set get fanatical when new men and women enter the church and it can be ugly to watch too.**In my best Brown imitation** Now let the chaurch say a-mend.


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## aribell (Apr 7, 2010)

Something that I've noticed that I'm not sure what the church can do about is that young Christians seem to be emotionally stunted when it comes to relationships.  I know that a lot of Christian women have noticed that many Christian men really don't know how to approach a woman, just take her out, develop a relationship like normal.  Sometimes only non-Christian or "Christian" (emphasis on the quotes) men can clearly identify what they want and set a sensical course to getting there.

I know men can feel pressured in church.  But I've also experienced a man doing the same thing...not understanding the process of dating to get to know one another, not understanding that even if discerning marriage is the goal that you still have to take the time to build a relationship.  Just because we're both Christians and will stick a marriage out doesn't mean that we are compatible or would be good for one another in marriage.

There just seem to be these extremes...either people court and get married or expect to get married straightaway, or they're not holding to godly standards at all.  I'm not sure what the church can do to get things back to the middle.


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## foxee (Apr 7, 2010)

nicola.kirwan said:


> I do remember that there was a guy bible study teacher who got engaged.  And apparently _several_ young women approached him to say that God had told them that he was _their _husband (not his fiance's).  I think that there can be waaay too much overspiritualization and honestly immaturity in young Christian circles.  "Prayer" takes the place of common sense.  And people haven't really learned the difference between God's voice and their own.



Unfortunately this happens with older people too.  My grandfather was the pastor of a medium sized church and when my granny died, at least 10 women approached him saying "the Lord told me I am going to be your next wife."  My granny was barely cold in the ground.  That was 15 years ago and my grandfather is still single.  He just celebrated his 85th birthday, so if he were going to marry one of those women I think it would have happened by now.  

If these ladies feel the Lord has given them confirmation, they should wait for it to come to pass.  If He spoke to you, I imagine He would speak to your future husband as well.


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## Vonnieluvs08 (Apr 7, 2010)

I go to a church with a young population and at times it seems very confusing.  At this age (mid-late 20s) you want to have fun and hang out but also serve God at the same time but there is always a undertone that hanging out will produce more relationships.  A lot of the women I hang out with aren't really stuck on marriage since we are all just settling into adult life (bills, jobs, responsibilities) but do hear that clock ticking as we approach 30+.  But after watching a couple sermons and yt videos about marriage and relationships it has definitely helped my perception of marriage and where my time and devotions truly lie...serving God and his community.

Personally I could use all those eager women that wanna catch a man by being involved in ministry to join the Women's Ministry...we always need more help.


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## Choclatcotton (Apr 7, 2010)

*Re: SIngle Church women and relationship drama*

THanks ladies, great input


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## Love Always (Apr 7, 2010)

I always look forward to what you have to say, spill it because it can help somebody .



Bunny77 said:


> Oh, so much I could say in so many areas here...    But I tend to talk too much, so I'm gonna stay quiet.
> 
> Maybe.


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## Browndilocks (Apr 7, 2010)

Interesting.  I have a friend in church who recently went through this.  In short, the guy proposed to her and gave her a huge ring.  It was that eye-catching from across the room kind of huge.  It instantly became so many women's point of interest.  Someone even approached him in the parking lot and asked if he could really see himself married to my friend.  The both of them were so done with it that exactly 4 weeks after they were officially engaged, my friend ceased her original wedding plans.  At the end of service last Sunday, they both walked up to the altar and had the pastor marry them.  In.Front.Of.EVERYBODY. Her wedding band is even more fabulous than the engagement ring.  They showed all the haters, ever so well.


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## Bunny77 (Apr 7, 2010)

Browndilocks said:


> Interesting.  I have a friend in church who recently went through this.  In short, the guy proposed to her and gave her a huge ring.  It was that eye-catching from across the room kind of huge.  It instantly became so many women's point of interest.  Someone even approached him in the parking lot and asked if he could really see himself married to my friend.  The both of them were so done with it that exactly 4 weeks after they were officially engaged, my friend ceased her original wedding plans.  At the end of service last Sunday, they both walked up to the altar and had the pastor marry them.  In.Front.Of.EVERYBODY. Her wedding band is even more fabulous than the engagement ring.  They showed all the haters, ever so well.



Sad.  

I think this goes back to what Nicola, Glib and what other women have said. These women see others getting married and wondering why not them? They might not even want that particular man, but the whole idea can get in their heads that they've been SO spiritual, SO "in the Word," SO prayerful, SO whatever... and then ole girl is the one that "gets" the man? Where's the man for them? Or why did THIS man want her? She missed church last week and doesn't serve on Board A, Committee B or go to Bible Study C!

When a mate/marriage are presented as rewards for being a good Christian, instead of a natural and common part of life, this is the result.


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## Vonnieluvs08 (Apr 7, 2010)

Bunny77 said:


> Sad.
> 
> I think this goes back to what Nicola, Glib and what other women have said. These women see others getting married and wondering why not them? They might not even want that particular man, but the whole idea can get in their heads that they've been SO spiritual, SO "in the Word," SO prayerful, SO whatever... and then ole girl is the one that "gets" the man? Where's the man for them? Or why did THIS man want her? She missed church last week and doesn't serve on Board A, Committee B or go to Bible Study C!
> 
> *When a mate/marriage are presented as rewards for being a good Christian, instead of a natural and common part of life, this is the result.*



That is so true!!  The ultimate reward only reward we should want for being a believer is eternity with God the Father and Jesus Christ.


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## Browndilocks (Apr 7, 2010)

Honestly I'm torn. Especially after my last break up.  On one hand I want to do all of that serving, praying, etc but on the other hand I just wanna throw my freak em dress on and roll the dice with my right hand while sipping the Patron & lime in my left.


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## nathansgirl1908 (Apr 8, 2010)

Browndilocks said:


> Honestly I'm torn. Especially after my last break up.  On one hand I want to do all of that serving, praying, etc but on the other hand I just wanna throw my freak em dress on and roll the dice with my right hand while sipping the Patron & lime in my left.



I want to preface this by saying that I'm not trying to be combative, I'm just trying to understand what you mean.

With your above statement, what about the break up makes you feel torn between doing "all of that serving, praying, etc" and putting on your freak dress, rolling the dice,  and drinking alcohol?


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## nathansgirl1908 (Apr 8, 2010)

Bunny77 said:


> When a mate/marriage are presented as rewards for being a good Christian, instead of a natural and common part of life, this is the result.



Yep.  And therein lies the problem.  And churches still continue to encourage that line of thinking.  The marriage seminar that I was dragged to against my will espoused the same ideas.  


On another note, I don't remember if I read it on this forum or heard it from a friend, but I know there was some talk about how so many women left the church where Mase was the pastor, once he got married.  Like all these women joined when he first got there and they began helping out in church, coming to all the services,  But as soon as he got married, there was a large amount of women who just stopped going to the church.    I find that so repulsive.


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## phynestone (Apr 8, 2010)

Bunny77 said:


> Sad.
> 
> I think this goes back to what Nicola, Glib and what other women have said. These women see others getting married and wondering why not them? They might not even want that particular man, but the whole idea can get in their heads that they've been SO spiritual, SO "in the Word," SO prayerful, SO whatever... and then ole girl is the one that "gets" the man? Where's the man for them? Or why did THIS man want her? She missed church last week and doesn't serve on Board A, Committee B or go to Bible Study C!
> 
> When a mate/marriage are presented as rewards for being a good Christian, instead of a natural and common part of life, this is the result.



A million thanks for this post. 

The Bible does not promise a spouse or children. I say it to my friends quite a bit. It is quite possible one may live on this earth and never have either. I think the sooner some accept this, the better off they will be. You can always buy a dog.


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## Laela (Apr 8, 2010)

....and why not get _rewarded_? I believe the problem lies in how some  see "reward"... is it a merit or grace?  The Bible is clear that those who are faithful to Him are rewarded (blessed)
How does God keep His promises concerning those who are faithful to Him? That's easy... through His Covenant.  If the desires of a person's heart is marriage or children, God is Faithful, but that person has to keep their end of the deal. *If *we are faithful to Him, he is faithful to us- that is the Covenant. And timing is everything. Everything in God's time, not ours.

For those who believe that our only Reward should be to see God and make it to Heaven, is this based on our works or our salvation?  




phynestone said:


> A million thanks for this post.
> 
> The Bible does not promise a spouse or children. I say it to my friends quite a bit. *It is quite possible one may live on this earth and never have either.* I think the sooner some accept this, the better off they will be. You can always buy a dog.


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## Vonnieluvs08 (Apr 8, 2010)

I base my answer on salvation.  

I know some women who join churches and are "Christians" (IMO) to find a man.  They feel that if they do good works and serve (but with selfish reasons/motives) then they should be rewarded with a husband.  As though bargaining with God..."See God I did all these things now bless me with a husband" and miss that the reason that as Christians (IMHO) we are to give God the glory, spread the Gospel and look forward to spending eternity with him.  Now if you can honor God in a marriage then surely be married but i think our hearts have to be in the right place.  God knows what's in our hearts and will fulfill those desires.

Sometimes I think churches have lifted marriage up on this pedestal and not the world.


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## PinkPebbles (Apr 8, 2010)

Vonnieluvs08 said:


> I base my answer on salvation.
> 
> *I know some women who join churches and are "Christians" (IMO) to find a* *man. They feel that if they do good works and serve (but with selfish reasons/motives) then they should be rewarded with a husband.* .


 
True...and you hit the key words *selfish reasons / motives.* 

We should go to church to serve, worship, and fellowship. If your heart is not sincere and pure then you will ultimately be disappointed. As a result, you will blame God for not having a mate...And some take it to the extreme and leave the church and abandon their relationship with God all together...


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## phynestone (Apr 8, 2010)

Laela said:


> ....and why not get _rewarded_? I believe the problem lies in how some  see "reward"... is it a merit or grace?  The Bible is clear that those who are faithful to Him are rewarded (blessed)
> How does God keep His promises concerning those who are faithful to Him? That's easy... through His Covenant.  If the desires of a person's heart is marriage or children, God is Faithful, but that person has to keep their end of the deal. *If *we are faithful to Him, he is faithful to us- that is the Covenant. And timing is everything. Everything in God's time, not ours.
> 
> For those who believe that our only Reward should be to see God and make it to Heaven, is this based on our works or our salvation?



I understand what you're saying, but as other ladies have already stated, some have the wrong motives. The Bible also speaks about it, when we pray and ask God for the things we want, we sometimes ask in order to fulfill our fleshly desires that may be unclean.

I do acknowledge God continues to bless us, even when we don't "deserve" his blessings.


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## Bunny77 (Apr 8, 2010)

phynestone said:


> A million thanks for this post.
> 
> The Bible does not promise a spouse or children. I say it to my friends quite a bit. It is quite possible one may live on this earth and never have either. *I think the sooner some accept this, the better off they will be. You can always buy a dog. *



See, I don't agree with this... and I don't promote acceptance of this idea.

And this is where I get controversial.

While the Bible might not promise a spouse or children, I don't think getting married is akin to winning the lottery either.

Marriage is a GOOD thing. Marriage is a Godly thing. We desire marriage and a mate because God gave us that desire. It should be celebrated that women want to marry and have children. In fact, my problem with this whole issue is the fact that I think Christians and churches often make it MORE difficult for women to get married by treating marriage and kids as these mystical things that might or might not happen to them.

No other faith-based group of people that I know of have a mindset that their women might not get married. The community believes that family is the foundation and there is no question that their children will be married. They will ensure that it happens -- in fact, I think one poster mentioned that in her community, a father is seen as negligent if he does not help steer his daughter into a good marriage. It is his duty to her, to the community and to the faith.

If more Christian women met more marriage-minded men, more would be married. It's that simple.

Of course, this is the issue the black church is dealing with, but I know a lot of Christian churches discourage dating methods that could bring Christian women in contact with more marriage-minded men. I've listened to so many sermons in which a pastor criticizes online dating or speed dating, or something else like that. Now, it's up to you if you want to pursue any such methods or not, but they are not WRONG if you do try them. But leave it up to some people, and they thwart all sorts of avenues that would allow women to encounter more possibilities. 

Do I think marriage is a "reward?" No. I think marriage is as normal a stage of life as everything else that people do. Now a good marriage can be considered a reward, and of course, that's what we all want. But this whole idea that one might be waiting indefinitely for it and that it's something totally out of our hands? That's anathema to all historical, religious and social evidence.


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## aribell (Apr 8, 2010)

I know you've stressed these points before, but that post really brought it together clearly for me.  I guess I still can't quite follow the trail of why this thinking persists.  Is part of it a combination of over-spiritualization and the western, romanticized way of dating.  Getting married isn't so rare as winning the lotto, but even in secular culture there is the attitude that finding love is a game of chance, since you're looking for that "special" someone and that "special" connection that can't be found with anyone else.

And then if someone is a Christian woman in a black church, the odds are worse...so maybe people compensate for discouragement over their chances by spiritualizing everything surrounding it.  I guess it's easier to say, "It must have been God's will," than it is to say, "I haven't been able to find a suitable mate and I don't know why."

I agree that the church is not living up to its stated value of marriage and family.  But I wonder if in the west the church would also have to move away from the soulmate idea to encourage more marriage.  But even then, I guess I don't see a lot of single men in church relative to women.  So even if they're not particularly marriage-minded when they're young, they do seem to get married eventually, meaning that churches still ahve to find a way to not only make men more marriage minded, but also even out the numbers.  This makes it seem like a pure numbers game all over again.



Bunny77 said:


> See, I don't agree with this... and I don't promote acceptance of this idea.
> 
> And this is where I get controversial.
> 
> ...


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## nathansgirl1908 (Apr 8, 2010)

Bunny77 said:


> See, I don't agree with this... and I don't promote acceptance of this idea.
> 
> And this is where I get controversial.
> 
> ...



Marriage is a thing.  I recently have come to believe it isn't necessarily a "Godly" thing.  In saying that though I am not saying it is unholy. There are parts of the Bible where we are encouraged by the writers of the scripture to remain single so that we are completely devoted to God. The reality is that when we are married, no matter how devoted we try to be to God, our hearts are still divided.  This is evidenced today even by the way many single women behave in the church if their desire for a mate does not come to fulfillment in what they deem as being a decent time.  People DO need to realize that everyone is not DESTINED TO BE MARRIED. And just because you have a desire to see something happen in your life does not mean it is a desire that God has placed there or that it is a desire He will fulfill.  And that doesn't always mean that your desire is unclean.  It just means that He is not going to do that thing for you. Period.  God's preference from what I have read is for us to be devoted to Him. He does know that many people want marriage.  And this isn't to say that He doesn't care about that desire, but people have to remember that any desire that you have the He knows is going to cause too much of a rift in your relationship with Him is going to be put on the backburner until you can handle it or, as I stated previously, it may not come to fruition at all.  

There is nothing wrong with the belief that everyone isn't meant to be married.  It is true.  Just like everyone who wants to be a doctor is not meant to become a doctor or everyone who wants to become a professional athlete is not meant to become a professional athlete.  
I think that if people just REALLY focus on God, they will find that their desires in that regard shift.  It may still be there, but at that point you will probably be in a better position to receive it because you won't allow it to dominate you or become your god.


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## Bunny77 (Apr 8, 2010)

nicola.kirwan said:


> I know you've stressed these points before, but that post really brought it together clearly for me.  I guess I still can't quite follow the trail of why this thinking persists.  Is part of it a combination of over-spiritualization and the western, romanticized way of dating.  Getting married isn't so rare as winning the lotto, but even in secular culture there is the attitude that finding love is a game of chance, since you're looking for that "special" someone and that "special" connection that can't be found with anyone else.



Yeah... sometimes I put my finger on it (maybe I did in that post) and sometimes I miss the mark, but I'm always confused by it too...  the way that evangelical Christian churches approach the marriage issue seems to feel more like the unfolding of a Hollywood script than anything, with God in the starring role as Cupid. And uh, God is definitely not Cupid!  

This board was one of the things that made a lot of this sink in for me. Some of the Muslim and Jewish ladies, who married "young" and have been married for at least a decade, talked about how they reached a point where they were ready for marriage, and they began pursuing marriage. They either asked family members for help, went out on their own and started trying to meet more men (of their background) and within a year or two, they were married. 

And they even used that dreaded word that Christian churches hate... looking. Almaz (sorry I called her out... maybe she can come in) said she went looking for her husband. She said her community encourages young marriages. She got married, is still married and now her kids are getting married. There is no "if" anywhere in the picture. It's when. And even the "when" is not all that mysterious -- it's within a certain early 20s age range. 

If this seems to be what religious communities do, then why did evangelical Christians take a course that's so dramatically different from everyone else?



> And then if someone is a Christian woman in a black church, the odds are worse...so maybe people compensate for discouragement over their chances by spiritualizing everything surrounding it.  I guess it's easier to say, "It must have been God's will," than it is to say, "I haven't been able to find a suitable mate and I don't know why."



I think this is exactly what's happening here. It's a response to the reality of the world, but not necessarily one that's very effective. And I think this is why the women mentioned in this thread (not the posters, but the women in the stories) are acting so foolishly. They don't know what to do and all of the messages they receive on this issue are contradictory... and the actions they are told to take are ineffective. So they lash out when another woman appears to have gotten a "blessing" and they haven't -- kinda like how lottery winners are targeted once they hit it big. See, my lottery comparison wasn't far off!   



> I agree that the church is not living up to its stated value of marriage and family.  But I wonder if in the west the church would also have to move away from the soulmate idea to encourage more marriage.  But even then, I guess I don't see a lot of single men in church relative to women.  So even if they're not particularly marriage-minded when they're young, they do seem to get married eventually, meaning that churches still ahve to find a way to not only make men more marriage minded, but also even out the numbers.  This makes it seem like a pure numbers game all over again.



And all this is what makes it difficult. We (the western church) are already in too deep into the "soulmate" idea of God sending or not sending a woman a mate at a random time to take a more practical approach... I almost wonder if just comes down to individuals effort by marriage-minded women to step out on faith on this issue.


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## nathansgirl1908 (Apr 8, 2010)

Bunny77 said:


> This board was one of the things that made a lot of this sink in for me. Some of the Muslim and Jewish ladies, who married "young" and have been married for at least a decade, talked about how they reached a point where they were ready for marriage, and they began pursuing marriage. They either asked family members for help, went out on their own and started trying to meet more men (of their background) and within a year or two, they were married.
> 
> And they even used that dreaded word that Christian churches hate... looking. Almaz (sorry I called her out... maybe she can come in) said she went looking for her husband. She said her community encourages young marriages. She got married, is still married and now her kids are getting married. There is no "if" anywhere in the picture. It's when. And even the "when" is not all that mysterious -- it's within a certain early 20s age range.
> 
> ...



Wow.  That just sounds like too much work.  I guess I'm in a different place right now because I can't understand why it is that serious.   I'm not pressed enough right now to do it.  I understand people wanting to find love, but I feel like people exert too much energy trying to find a limited love and ignore the unconditional and unlimited love they can find in family, TRUE friends, and God.   I can't exert energy now to find someone so that I can:

- increase the load of laundry I have to do each week 
-increase the amount of cooking I have to do 
-increase the amount of cleaning I have to do erplexed
-decrease my independence to a certain extent (meaning I have to now confer with someone else on how to spend money I have made, I have to curb my spontaneous day trips to fun locations because I need to be back home to cook for him or just keep him company)
-deal with all the potential negative issues like cheating (because one you have him, someone else ALWAYS decides they want him too)
-find myself forced to keep him "satisfied and happy" (meaning I have to limit the amount of times I walk around in sweats or silly pajamas or just don't feel like having sex)


This is not to say that there is something wrong with desiring marriage.  But most women that I talk to always focus on the love aspect and seem to look at marriage through rose colored lenses.  Marriage, from what I have seen of the people around me, is HARD work.  And ALL of the married women that I know have told me to postpone marriage as long as possible.  Some even said that if they had to do it all over again they would NOT have gotten married.  These are women who love their mates.  Some of them have good marriages, but they ALL felt that 
1. marriage isn't all it is cracked up to be
2. marriage involves much more work than people realize

So if other religious cultures operate in the marriage realm by exerting effort  into to making sure people are married, then that is how they choose to operate.  I don't think anyone should suggest it is superior to other ways of handling the matter.


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## Bunny77 (Apr 8, 2010)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> Wow.  That just sounds like too much work.  I guess I'm in a different place right now because I can't understand why it is that serious.   I'm not pressed enough right now to do it.  I understand people wanting to find love, but I feel like people exert too much energy trying to find a limited love and ignore the unconditional and unlimited love they can find in family, TRUE friends, and God.   I can't exert energy now to find someone so that I can:



Well, if we're only speaking of women who desire marriage, it's a lot less work than spending years and even decades "dating," "not dating," trying to determine if a certain man you meet is marriage-minded, etc.  The women who pursued marriage usually were married within 2 years or less of starting the process... often less. Give me that anyday versus 10 years!

As for the rest... it's so not about just finding love. I think that's another problem here... we look at this whole thing as just "finding love" or "having a man." If that's all marriage was, I'd be inclined to agree with you. 

You mentioned that people view marriage with rose-colored glasses, and I agree to a point. But I think (and I see in this post) that one can also be too critical of it and look at it with mud-colored glasses... you made a statement that marriage provides "limited love" and everything you listed about marriage was a negative. You also said that friends and family provide unlimited and unconditional love, yet you seem to believe a husband cannot.

Well, the ONLY one who provides unlimited and unconditional love is God. We all agree on that. But to say that family and friends provide a deeper/better love than a husband can? What's that based on? What about those who have horrible families and friends and have wonderful husbands and wives? Selfless, giving love can come from a variety of sources, and a good husband is just as capable of providing that as parents and friends. 

Plus, the love I expect from my husband is completely different than what my family and friends would provide. That's the whole point of marriage. And if a Christian woman rightfully wants to have her own family, then she needs a husband. 



> - increase the load of laundry I have to do each week
> -increase the amount of cooking I have to do
> -increase the amount of cleaning I have to do erplexed
> -decrease my independence to a certain extent (meaning I have to now confer with someone else on how to spend money I have made, I have to curb my spontaneous day trips to fun locations because I need to be back home to cook for him or just keep him company)
> ...



Well if this is all that comes to mind when you think about marriage, then one hasn't seen any examples of positive marriages. If everyone tells you to stay single and postpone marriage, that tells me more about the poor quality of their marriages versus the benefit of marriage itself.

I heard the same things and what I decided to do was talk to women in GOOD marriages. They agreed it was hard work, but they said it was the most rewarding hard work they ever did. It's not SUPPOSED to be easy. Nothing good comes easy. But NONE of them wanted to go back to being single and they talked about how incredibly fulfilling and happy it was to be in a marriage.

I don't want to be "independent" for the rest of my life. I look forward to being interdependent with someone and planning our lives together. I don't want to spend 50 more years being "spontaneous." 

I'm not even married yet, but just having a wonderful partner has made my life so much better. I work crazy hours, and sometimes, he'll come by my house and have dinner ready for me. He's folded the towels that were sitting in the laundry basket for days because I've been too busy to get to them. He's put tires on my car, fixed the drain in my shower, installed new flourescent lights... basically, done things that a good husband should do to take care of his household and help his wife. 

Yeah, I can do bad by myself and I would have eventually have gotten all that stuff done myself. But it's been such a benefit to have a wonderful man take away a lot of stress in my life and know that someone has got MY back like that... it's an amazing feeling.  I also benefit from having my "family" grow -- his family now becomes mine and vice-versa. I'm seeing it already, as his parents/aunts/uncles take pride in my accomplishments because I'm going to be their future daughter.

Now, could he change in marriage? Sure, it's possible. But I'm seeing such Godly actions in him now that I see how he would be a great husband and a great father, and how he would demonstrate the sacrificial love that God demonstrated to the church.

Last thing... I was recently at an awards ceremony for my profession, and it was very telling for me to see some of the awardees (men and women) break down in tears when they thanked their wives and husbands (and kids) for being that rock back home when they were busy doing things in their field... and how they wouldn't be close to where they were without the unwavering support of their spouses. I'm sure they had tough times -- things we might not imagine. But the emotion and pure LOVE I heard in their voices and the tears on their faces said that every part of what they went through in that marriage was worth it.

No one can tell me that family and "true friends" can replicate that, and that the love of a husband or wife in comparison, is "limited." A good marriage is a beautiful thing.


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## Bunny77 (Apr 8, 2010)

Just for the record, I want to make it clear that there's NOTHING wrong with being single. I'm not putting down singleness or telling people that they should want/prefer marriage if that's not where they're at right now. Or they might never be at that point, and that's fine too.

I just don't think enough is really being done to address the legitimate concerns that many evangelical Christian women have about wanting marriage, and how making marriage a "maybe/maybe not" proposition for those who desire it is something I consider to be detrimental to those women AND to the church community and the black community as well. 

The women in the story acted out improperly, no question about that. I'm sure I'll encounter a few of them as well and I'm sure I'll be annoyed.

But, their desire for marriage is in no way wrong or misguided.


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## nathansgirl1908 (Apr 8, 2010)

Bunny77 said:


> As for the rest... it's so not about just finding love. I think that's another problem here... we look at this whole thing as just "finding love" or "having a man." If that's all marriage was, I'd be inclined to agree with you.


That's all I see people talking about when they say how much they want to be married.  So, it seems that for MANY people it IS about just finding love.




> You mentioned that people view marriage with rose-colored glasses, and I agree to a point. But I think (and I see in this post) that one can also be too critical of it and look at it with mud-colored glasses... you made a statement that marriage provides "limited love" and everything you listed about marriage was a negative. You also said that friends and family provide unlimited and unconditional love, yet you seem to believe a husband cannot.
> 
> Well, the ONLY one who provides unlimited and unconditional love is God. We all agree on that. But to say that family and friends provide a deeper/better love than a husband can? What's that based on? What about those who have horrible families and friends and have wonderful husbands and wives? Selfless, giving love can come from a variety of sources, and a good husband is just as capable of providing that as parents and friends.
> 
> Plus, the love I expect from my husband is completely different than what my family and friends would provide. That's the whole point of marriage. And if a Christian woman rightfully wants to have her own family, then she needs a husband.



If she wants her own family, then yes, she needs a husband.  And while the love you experience with your husband may be different, it is in no way superior to that of family.  What it really boils down to is sex.  Whether people want to admit it or not. 




> Well if this is all that comes to mind when you think about marriage, then one hasn't seen any examples of positive marriages. If everyone tells you to stay single and postpone marriage, that tells me more about the poor quality of their marriages versus the benefit of marriage itself.
> 
> I heard the same things and what I decided to do was talk to women in GOOD marriages. They agreed it was hard work, but they said it was the most rewarding hard work they ever did. It's not SUPPOSED to be easy. Nothing good comes easy. But NONE of them wanted to go back to being single and they talked about how incredibly fulfilling and happy it was to be in a marriage.


You seem to have ignored the part where I said that some of these women were in good marriages.  I'm not sure why people find it hard to fathom that people in GOOD marriages may sometimes wish for various reasons that they weren't married.  




> I don't want to be "independent" for the rest of my life. I look forward to being interdependent with someone and planning our lives together. I don't want to spend 50 more years being "spontaneous."
> 
> I'm not even married yet, but just having a wonderful partner has made my life so much better. I work crazy hours, and sometimes, he'll come by my house and have dinner ready for me. He's folded the towels that were sitting in the laundry basket for days because I've been too busy to get to them. He's put tires on my car, fixed the drain in my shower, installed new flourescent lights... basically, done things that a good husband should do to take care of his household and help his wife.




I can understand that.  I think it all depends on life experiences too.  I was raised by independent women, and so for me, independence is important.  It is so important that I find myself hesitant to allow it to be compromised.  I don't like answering too anyone.  I don't like conferring with anyone about things I want to do.  But some may enjoy that.  And that is completely understandable.  




> Yeah, I can do bad by myself and I would have eventually have gotten all that stuff done myself. But it's been such a benefit to have a wonderful man take away a lot of stress in my life and know that someone has got MY back like that... it's an amazing feeling.  I also benefit from having my "family" grow -- his family now becomes mine and vice-versa. I'm seeing it already, as his parents/aunts/uncles take pride in my accomplishments because I'm going to be their future daughter.
> 
> Now, could he change in marriage? Sure, it's possible. But I'm seeing such Godly actions in him now that I see how he would be a great husband and a great father, and how he would demonstrate the sacrificial love that God demonstrated to the church.



 I will say that those things you listed above are wonderful for men to do.  But 90% of the women I know say that stuff ends once the marriage begins.  I've been told that men suddenly become helpless.  They feel that they no longer have to do all that stuff to win you.  They feel like they have you now, so they can "relax."  It doesn't make the man a bad husband though.  But I think it is important to be aware that the man you date may change.  




> Last thing... I was recently at an awards ceremony for my profession, and it was very telling for me to see some of the awardees (men and women) break down in tears when they thanked their wives and husbands (and kids) for being that rock back home when they were busy doing things in their field... and how they wouldn't be close to where they were without the unwavering support of their spouses. I'm sure they had tough times -- things we might not imagine. But the emotion and pure LOVE I heard in their voices and the tears on their faces said that every part of what they went through in that marriage was worth it.
> 
> No one can tell me that family and "true friends" can replicate that, and that the love of a husband or wife in comparison, is "limited." A good marriage is a beautiful thing.



I'm sorry that no one can tell you that, but it IS true.  Family and true friends have replicated that for me in ALL walks of my life.    I can honestly say that.


----------



## nathansgirl1908 (Apr 8, 2010)

Bunny77 said:


> Just for the record, I want to make it clear that there's NOTHING wrong with being single. I'm not putting down singleness or telling people that they should want/prefer marriage if that's not where they're at right now. Or they might never be at that point, and that's fine too.
> 
> I just don't think enough is really being done to address the legitimate concerns that many evangelical Christian women have about wanting marriage, and how making marriage a "maybe/maybe not" proposition for those who desire it is something I consider to be detrimental to those women AND to the church community and the black community as well.
> 
> ...


Desiring marriage is in no way wrong.  But allowing it to become your primary focus and allowing it to cause you to hate on others who are married IS wrong.  

But I think that there is stuff being done to ADDRESS the desire they have for marriage.  I just think that no one is focusing on encouraging the men to be good husbands.


----------



## Bunny77 (Apr 8, 2010)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> That's all I see people talking about when they say how much they want to be married.  So, it seems that for MANY people it IS about just finding love.



I agree. I take a different approach to marriage though. Plus, I take issue with the way a lot of people define "love." They're talking about butterflies and smiles and giggles... when I think of the type of love between a husband and wife, I think of God's love for the church. It was a sacrificial one.




> If she wants her own family, then yes, she needs a husband.  And while the love you experience with your husband may be different, it is in no way superior to that of family.  What it really boils down to is sex.  Whether people want to admit it or not.



I don't think I said that the love from a husband is superior, but I said it's on a whole different plane than that of a familial/friendship love. That doesn't mean "better," but it's different. Marital love is not supposed to be like familial love. Personally, I want to experience all of them -- the love of parents, the love of a husband, Agape love and love from a child. 



> You seem to have ignored the part where I said that some of these women were in good marriages.  I'm not sure why people find it hard to fathom that people in GOOD marriages may sometimes wish for various reasons that they weren't married.



Duly noted. And maybe I'll feel that way in the future as well... but their experiences don't have to mean that mine will be the same way.   




> I can understand that.  I think it all depends on life experiences too.  I was raised by independent women, and so for me, independence is important.  It is so important that I find myself hesitant to allow it to be compromised.  I don't like answering too anyone.  I don't like conferring with anyone about things I want to do.  But some may enjoy that.  And that is completely understandable.



 



> I will say that those things you listed above are wonderful for men to do.  But 90% of the women I know say that stuff ends once the marriage begins.  I've been told that men suddenly become helpless.  They feel that they no longer have to do all that stuff to win you.  They feel like they have you now, so they can "relax."  It doesn't make the man a bad husband though.  But I think it is important to be aware that the man you date may change.



Well, we'll definitely see what happens! I'll be keeping my eyes open, most definitely. I'm sure that both of us will go through changes in our marriage -- that's life. Being aware of this early on, I'll work my hardest to ensure that I don't totally lose myself in it all... at the same time, I believe in trust. At some point, I have to take a risk. A calculated risk, but a risk... I can be safe and stay single (which I don't want to do) and never have to worry about this, but in doing that, I could miss out on something wonderful. I don't want to do that because of what I've heard. 




> I'm sorry that no one can tell you that, but it IS true.  Family and true friends have replicated that for me in ALL walks of my life.    I can honestly say that.


Actually, in this case, I don't think either of us can say it's true. Since we've never been married, we don't know, so we honestly can't say how marital love would be different from familial love.

(I assume you've never been married... sorry if I'm wrong.)

I'm going on what married women have told me though about how completely different a husband's love is from a parent's love or a friend's love. Again, it's not better/worse, but it's entirely different. I guess I'll find out when I'm married, but again, I don't think we can come to any conclusions about this seeing that we've not been married and have never experienced this type of love.


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## Bunny77 (Apr 8, 2010)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> Desiring marriage is in no way wrong.  *But allowing it to become your primary focus and allowing it to cause you to hate on others who are married IS wrong.  *
> 
> But I think that there is stuff being done to ADDRESS the desire they have for marriage.  I just think that no one is focusing on encouraging the men to be good husbands.



I think I said that... that those women acted completely inappropriately! I just think that there needs to be more insight into WHY this type of behavior exists... and maybe if there's some teaching that leads women to act this way... and how to correct it! 

And your last paragraph... YES YES YES! Actually, the problem is earlier than that... few people are preparing the men to become husbands!!!!


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## nathansgirl1908 (Apr 8, 2010)

Bunny77 said:


> Actually, in this case, I don't think either of us can say it's true. Since we've never been married, we don't know, so we honestly can't say how marital love would be different from familial love.
> 
> (I assume you've never been married... sorry if I'm wrong.)
> 
> I'm going on what married women have told me though about how completely different a husband's love is from a parent's love or a friend's love. Again, it's not better/worse, but it's entirely different. I guess I'll find out when I'm married, but again, I don't think we can come to any conclusions about this seeing that we've not been married and have never experienced this type of love.



Well you stated that they were referencing the love and support they received from their spouses and how the spouses served as a rock at home.  Family and friends CAN provide love and support as you work towards your goals.


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## Bunny77 (Apr 8, 2010)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> Well you stated that they were referencing the love and support they received from their spouses and how the spouses served as a rock at home.  Family and friends CAN provide love and support as you work towards your goals.



Of course family and friends can provide love and support.

They are still different than the man who took a vow before God to love, cherish and honor you for as long as you both shall live, the man who is the father of your children, the man who's been your partner for 20+ years through life's ups and downs and your kids' ups and downs, etc... the one you come home to each day (unless you still live with your parents or live with your friends), the one who knows you most intimately, etc.

Again, if one chooses not to marry, none of this means anything. 

But since we are in the Christian forum, this is the whole idea behind the Biblical "leave and cleave" philosophy -- when you leave your parents, you join with your husband or wife. Speaking from a Biblical perspective, a marital relationship is not supposed to replicate a parent-child relationship or friendship.

That's what I'm speaking of here. When a man and woman come together in marriage, their relationship and their love is supposed to be something completely different than what either experienced before in relationships with others.


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## aribell (Apr 8, 2010)

Laela said:


> ....and why not get _rewarded_? I believe the problem lies in how some  see "reward"... is it a merit or grace?  The Bible is clear that those who are faithful to Him are rewarded (blessed)
> How does God keep His promises concerning those who are faithful to Him? That's easy... through His Covenant.  If the desires of a person's heart is marriage or children, God is Faithful, but that person has to keep their end of the deal. *If *we are faithful to Him, he is faithful to us- that is the Covenant. And timing is everything. Everything in God's time, not ours.
> 
> For those who believe that our only Reward should be to see God and make it to Heaven, is this based on our works or our salvation?



Thanks for saying this!  The following verse has been on my mind this week:  But without faith _it is_ impossible to please _Him,_ *for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a *_*rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.*_ (Hebrews 11:6).  The bible connects our faith with our belief that God will provide good things for us.  When Jesus criticized those of His day for having little faith, it was in relation to their disbelief that God would provide for them, for their disbelief that He would give them good gifts.  ("If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!" Matt. 7:11)

*It is intrinsic to genuine faith in God that He will bring goodness to you.*
 


nathansgirl1908 said:


> This is not to say that there is something wrong with desiring marriage.  *But most women that I talk to always focus on the love aspect and seem to look at marriage through rose colored lenses.  *Marriage, from what I have seen of the people around me, *is HARD work.* *And ALL of the married women that I know have told me to postpone marriage as long as possible. * Some even said that if they had to do it all over again they would NOT have gotten married.  These are women who love their mates.  Some of them have good marriages, but they ALL felt that
> *1. marriage isn't all it is cracked up to be
> 2. marriage involves much more work than people realize*



I think that people focus too much on what it is _they _stand to gain (in a selfish sense) out of marriage or other things, and that attitude is what causes problems later on.  Whether one pursues marriage or doesn't pursue marriage really shouldn't be based on how hard or inconvenient it is, since Paul's example of singleness was more grueling, more sacrificial, and more tiring (_in its own way_) than settling down in marriage would generally be.  Basically, no path lived out fully in obedience to God will be "easy" or really, easier than another.

And yes, Paul did say that the single person is "free" to focus on the Lord, but it still takes energy and discipline as a single person to bring one's full focus to the Lord.  This is likely why Paul admitted that one person has one gift (a married state) and another has another gift (a single state).  All paths of obedience are steep climbs and come with their own particular blessings.



PinkPebbles said:


> True...and you hit the key words *selfish reasons / motives.*
> 
> We should go to church to serve, worship, and fellowship. If your heart is not sincere and pure then you will ultimately be disappointed. As a result, you will blame God for not having a mate...And some take it to the extreme and leave the church and abandon their relationship with God all together...





phynestone said:


> I understand what you're saying, but as other ladies have already stated, some have the wrong motives. The Bible also speaks about it, when we pray and ask God for the things we want, we sometimes ask in order to fulfill our fleshly desires that may be unclean.
> 
> I do acknowledge God continues to bless us, even when we don't "deserve" his blessings.



The above quotes are why I think we should never base our expectation of what God will or will not do for us on what we see going on in the lives of people around us.  Galatians says that each person must bear their own load.  You never know why a woman who has been single forever and praying has remained so.  Even if churches are full of such women, that doesn't mean their state is reflective of what is possible or likely to happen to you.

I remember a woman who was single into her 40s and just all distraught and losing faith over it one day realize that she had completely selfish motives for seeking marriage and her heart wasn't right at all in that regard.  Now I'm not saying that we have to be perfect in order to get married or that once every bad attitude is rooted out that a husband will come.  I'm just saying that you can't really know just by seeing the people around you what's going on internally that's contributing to their state.  Jesus said that the way is _narrow _and that _few _find it.  I wouldn't pay attention to even Christians around me to determine what God is or is not doing, or what He is or is not willing to do.  The only person you can focus on is yourself and your own goals and desires and bring them before the Lord.


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## Laela (Apr 8, 2010)

This is due to media hype -- pure unadulterated deception. These news stories constantly bombarding us with the *"odds" *black people face... But what's 'odd' is they always have stats (many skewered) to make their cases each time, to keep the Black Woman as the poster child for anything socially wrong with society: _OW births, number of men in prison, number of men gay/bi, HIV/AIDS and other diseases, the face of welfare_ 

Believers aren't supposed to care nor be affected by what is going on in the World.  If the "odds" say we_ can't _get married.... we simply open the Bible and see what GOD says.  

If more Christians apply the biblical principles to their lives - renew their minds through _practical _living - they won't have to depend so much on the churches to do for them what they need to be doing for themselves. The Church's role, and that of its leaders, is to sow the seed (teach the Word) on good ground (the heart of a believing Believer) ...it's the Believer's job to cultivate that seed, to ensure it grows. Personal accountability.... 

Over-spirituality, IMHO, is pure talk, no action (faith). Or as Creflo Dollar calls it.. being Spooky.



Getting...
........... off
                 my 
                      soapbox now... 




nicola.kirwan said:


> *And then if someone is a Christian woman in a black church, the odds are worse...*so maybe people compensate for discouragement over their chances by spiritualizing everything surrounding it.  I guess it's easier to say, "It must have been God's will," than it is to say, "I haven't been able to find a suitable mate and I don't know why."
> 
> I agree that the church is not living up to its stated value of marriage and family.  But I wonder if in the west the church would also have to move away from the soulmate idea to encourage more marriage.  But even then, I guess I don't see a lot of single men in church relative to women.  So even if they're not particularly marriage-minded when they're young, they do seem to get married eventually, meaning that churches still ahve to find a way to not only make men more marriage minded, but also even out the numbers.  This makes it seem like a pure numbers game all over again.


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## aribell (Apr 8, 2010)

Okay, so on Bunny's point.  What I'm seeing more clearly is that 1) we treat marriage like it is not an intentional choice, but like winning the lottery.  2) We treat it as a game of chance because we feel like we have no control over the process, and 3) We treat it as something mystical that we _hope_ will "happen" to us because we don't have a clear sense of any _responsibility_ to get married in the first place.  It's purely a _want_.

I think that the 3rd point is a part of the difference between the attitude toward marriage in American Christianity and that of other cultures.  In other places (or in the bible), marriage isn't just about what you personally stand to get out of the deal, how you feel, what you like.  Marriage and family are things that are bigger than the individuals that comprise them, and people are expected to enter into that broader institution.  In the US, more and more people are wondering why they should put up with all the obligations of marriage and family when they can just be single and basically have their cake and eat it too.  Christians aren't trying to have it both ways generally, but I do think the attitude that marriage is purely a "want" has creeped in.  As it has been mentioned, people are focusing purely on marriage as a way of getting the lovey dovey stuff without also looking at the broader picture and purpose.  

I guess we lost the understanding that God has a plan and purpose for marriage and family as institutions beyond our individual wants and desires, and thus don't see ourselves as called by God to enter into those institutions to accomplish _His_ purposes (which, in turn, we will find ourselves blessed by, as He created us for marital and familial relationships).

I think this makes a difference on the church-culture level because if we really believed that the Lord had a purpose for marriage and family beyond individual people getting what they particularly want, then the church would be about promoting marriage and getting people married.  Instead, the church sees young people and other singles as not having things they want (like having a new car would be nice, and lots of people have them, but if you don't get one, you shouldn't complain about it.  Maybe God will bless you with one someday.)  Instead of finding a spouse being like getting a new car, perhaps it should be more like the Lord saying, "Okay, I have a task to accomplish (filling the earth and subduing it), and it takes units of two who will produce offspring to accomplish it.  Make it happen!"  Not a great analogy, but it's the closest that I can come up with.

I once read this article (by Debbie Maken maybe?) saying that if one is not specifically called to singleness, that one is called to marriage, period.  That singleness is the exceptional state, and that if one did not discern a call to remain celibate then one was, without a doubt, called to be married and therefore should take intentional steps to make that happen--like it's a responsibility.  This attitude only makes sense if marriage is an institution beyond the individual's personal desires.  I would be interested in discussing that concept here for any takers.

Sorry for the length...now this is like a puzzle that I feel compelled to solve.  Something's really "off" about all of this.


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## Prudent1 (Apr 8, 2010)

Laela said:


> *This is due to media hype -- pure unadulterated deception. These news stories constantly bombarding us with the "odds" black people face... But what's 'odd' is they always have stats (many skewered) to make their cases each time, to keep the Black Woman as the poster child for anything socially wrong with society: OW births, number of men in prison, number of men gay/bi, HIV/AIDS and other diseases, the face of welfare *
> 
> Believers aren't supposed to care nor be affected by what is going on in the World. If the "odds" say we_ can't _get married.... we simply open the Bible and see what GOD says.
> 
> ...


 
**borrowing soap box from Bunny77 and Laela**
ITA- all of the misperceptions and odds, especially those that deal with how many kids you should have, and when you are too old to have them etc etc. Like at 30+ your ovaries and uterus evaporate or something. When do those who claim to love God and be called according to his purposes open the bible, pray, and ask him what his puproses are in these very sensitive areas and quit listening to Dr./ Rev./Prof./ so and so and their depressing drivel? I think it was Joshua that said if God is God then serve him. Renew your minds. Stop accepting the world's limited abilities as your own. Be informed of worldly events but then pray and read the bible. Keep developing those personal relationships with God. Let his words/ thoughts be your final authority!

*"I guess we lost the understanding that God has a plan and purpose for marriage and family as institutions beyond our individual wants and desires, and thus don't see ourselves as called by God to enter into those institutions to accomplish His purposes (which, in turn, we will find ourselves blessed by, as He created us for marital and familial relationships)."*

That's it right there. Ppl get angry. Ppl disagree but that's it right there. Many do not understand this or flat out don't want to accept this but that is that sacrificial love Bunny77 was talking about right there. Some will never get this and continue to not seek God and find out what his plan are in this area of their lives.

Here is one of the best explanations of marriage I have ever heard... worth the $20 for anyone serious about understanding marriage from God's perspective.
http://resources.northpoint.org/store/shop.do?cID=57&pID=978


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## loolalooh (Apr 8, 2010)

Laela said:


> This is due to media hype -- pure unadulterated deception. These news stories constantly bombarding us with the *"odds" *black people face... But what's 'odd' is they always have stats (many skewered) to make their cases each time, to keep the Black Woman as the poster child for anything socially wrong with society: _OW births, number of men in prison, number of men gay/bi, HIV/AIDS and other diseases, the face of welfare_
> 
> Believers aren't supposed to care nor be affected by what is going on in the World. If the "odds" say we_ can't _get married.... we simply open the Bible and see what GOD says.
> 
> ...


 


Prudent1 said:


> **borrowing soap box from Bunny77 and Laela**
> ITA- all of the misperceptions and odds, especially those that deal with how many kids you should have, and when you are too old to have them etc etc. Like at 30+ your ovaries and uterus evaporate or something. When do those who claim to love God and be called according to his purposes open the bible, pray, and ask him what his puproses are in these very sensitive areas and quit listening to Dr./ Rev./Prof./ so and so and their depressing drivel? I think it was Joshua that said if God is God then serve him. Renew your minds. Stop accepting the world's limited abilities as your own. Be informed of worldly events but then pray and read the bible. Keep developing those personal relationships with God. Let his words/ thoughts be your final authority!
> 
> *"I guess we lost the understanding that God has a plan and purpose for marriage and family as institutions beyond our individual wants and desires, and thus don't see ourselves as called by God to enter into those institutions to accomplish His purposes (which, in turn, we will find ourselves blessed by, as He created us for marital and familial relationships)."*
> ...


 
Yes, yes.  Also IA with the worldly odds.  Single Christian women face them everyday - via the radio, tv, movies, etc.  We have to just tune that out and stay in the Word.  Any and everything is possible through God despite what the statistics on Dateline or 20/20 say.  And this isn't just with marriage but with all aspects of life - e.g., employment, healing from diseases, etc.


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## loolalooh (Apr 8, 2010)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> I made reference to this in another thread.* Part of the problem is that they are doing that for the main reason of "being found" instead of doing it because they really want to honor God.* I find it pretty sickening to say the least. I'm sure that sounds judgmental, but at this point I don't care.
> 
> Two weeks ago I had a status message on my Facebook page that garnered a great deal of commentary:
> "Stop stressing and praying for him to come. You can attend as many conferences as you want about getting ready to be a wife. The bottom line is that he won't come until it is time, IF he is meant to come. God makes the decision, not you, and you can't rush the process."
> ...


 
Cosign completely!

Our first and foremost focus should be honoring, serving, and glorifying God.  Our heads should not be in the Word and all up in the church solely so we can find a good man ... or solely so we can "prepare ourselves" for that future husband.


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## loolalooh (Apr 8, 2010)

SvelteVelvet said:


> _*Peeking in*_
> 
> Great topic of discussion and good points were raised. I feel the awareness of this issue is very important for single women who are going to church with the sincerity of assembling, praising and serving God, and growing spiritually. Because even if you are not that women in church placing yourself there to be found, you will be confused as one, by both the women who are placing themselves to be found and by the men. Even the married Ministers, Pastors, Bishops, and their wives.
> 
> ...


 
Yes, yes!  Agreed.


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## PinkPebbles (Apr 8, 2010)

nicola.kirwan said:


> The above quotes are why I think we should never base our expectation of what God will or will not do for us on what we see going on in the lives of people around us. Galatians says that each person must bear their own load. You never know why a woman who has been single forever and praying has remained so. Even if churches are full of such women, that doesn't mean their state is reflective of what is possible or likely to happen to you.
> 
> I remember a woman who was single into her 40s and just all distraught and losing faith over it one day realize that she had completely selfish motives for seeking marriage and her heart wasn't right at all in that regard. Now I'm not saying that we have to be perfect in order to get married or that once every bad attitude is rooted out that a husband will come. I'm just saying that you can't really know just by seeing the people around you what's going on internally that's contributing to their state. Jesus said that the way is _narrow _and that _few _find it. I wouldn't pay attention to even Christians around me to determine what God is or is not doing, or what He is or is not willing to do. The only person you can focus on is yourself and your own goals and desires and bring them before the Lord.


 
I believe you have taken what I said out of context.

I did not say women who seek marriage have selfish / impure motives. I said we should go to church with sincere and pure hearts to worship, serve, and fellowship. 

However, if a woman's *main /only goal* is to go to church to find a husband then she will be disappointed and perhaps blame God if her future husband is not there.

When I decided on a church home I did not say let me see how many single men are in the building. I said Lord, please lead and guide me to where YOU want me to be. I desire to be in Your perfect Will for my life. And I believe if I seek You first, and your righteousness, all other things will be added unto me in your perfect timing.

I desire to be married but my future husband may not be at my church. And that's fine because I'm going to church to worship, serve, and fellowship. That's all I'm saying....


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## aribell (Apr 8, 2010)

PinkPebbles said:


> I believe you have taken what I said out of context.
> 
> I did not say women who seek marriage have selfish / impure motives. I said we should go to church with sincere and pure hearts to worship, serve, and fellowship.
> 
> ...



Sorry, I wasn't disagreeing with anything that you said.  Only using the quote to agree, saying that yes, there are a lot of people who do have impure motives in desiring a spouse and thus we cannot know looking in from the outside what the source of those motives are.  A lot of people get discouraged seeing other women discouraged in their faith because God has not answered their prayer.  But we can't look at those situations and think that this is really a cause for discouragement, for we don't really know what is going on in the spiritual/emotional life of that person--whether they're there "just" to find a man or there for pure reasons.


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## loolalooh (Apr 8, 2010)

Bunny77 said:


> Yeah... sometimes I put my finger on it (maybe I did in that post) and sometimes I miss the mark, but I'm always confused by it too... the way that evangelical Christian churches approach the marriage issue seems to feel more like the unfolding of a Hollywood script than anything, with God in the starring role as Cupid. And uh, God is definitely not Cupid!
> 
> This board was one of the things that made a lot of this sink in for me. Some of the Muslim and Jewish ladies, who married "young" and have been married for at least a decade, talked about how they reached a point where they were ready for marriage, and they began pursuing marriage. They either asked family members for help, went out on their own and started trying to meet more men (of their background) and within a year or two, they were married.
> 
> ...


 
Good question. I am not sure .. it could be that some evangelical Christians have interpreted *Proverbs 18:22* more literally than the Jewish and Muslim women. 

"_He who_ finds a wife finds a good _thing ... " _

Or it could be something more complex.  Good question.  I will admit that I am still perusing the Bible like an infant his new home, so maybe some Bible scholars (and Tanakh, Quran, etc.) can chime in.

In spite of that, I think single Christian women can be ... I'll use the word "active." Not chasing. Not consumed in finding the one. But active in that if God calls them to take certain steps to meet their future husbands, they better get on it. These actions can range from signing up for an art class, switching universities, attending a dinner event, or anything because, after all, God's ways are not limited to our ways. We have to figure out, though, whether He is calling us to do these things, and that can be the hard part for some.

I don't think all single Christian women should expect to meet their husbands in church, which is why some of these jealousy stories in this thread disappoint me. Where does it say that for every single woman at St. X church there should be a single man at St. X church, and if there isn't, get discouraged ladies? I try not to let the high ratio of men to women in my church bother me. God can make a marriage happen despite any odds be they worldy or in the church. It's important, though, to not just sit around and expect one's future hubby to fall in her lap one day ... though I know He can work it like that if He so pleases. Instead, one should listen to Him on what steps she should take in positioning herself to meet her future hubby. I think to Ruth (who was brought up in another thread, interestingly enough). She was active in going to Boaz at the threshing floor ... positioning herself as directed by Naomi who was directed by God.  There is nothing wrong with us being "active" so long as our guidance is truly from above.


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## Browndilocks (Apr 8, 2010)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> I want to preface this by saying that I'm not trying to be combative, I'm just trying to understand what you mean.
> 
> With your above statement, what about the break up makes you feel torn between doing "all of that serving, praying, etc" and putting on your freak dress, rolling the dice,  and drinking alcohol?



No problem.  I basically mean that I'm not going to obsess over anything by going to one extreme or the other.


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## phynestone (Apr 8, 2010)

I just want to say I am really enjoying this dialogue, even if I don't have anything else to add.


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## Bunny77 (Apr 9, 2010)

nicola.kirwan said:


> I think that people focus too much on what it is _they _stand to gain (in a selfish sense) out of marriage or other things, and that attitude is what causes problems later on.  Whether one pursues marriage or doesn't pursue marriage really shouldn't be based on how hard or inconvenient it is, since Paul's example of singleness was more grueling, more sacrificial, and more tiring (_in its own way_) than settling down in marriage would generally be.  Basically, no path lived out fully in obedience to God will be "easy" or really, easier than another.
> 
> And yes, Paul did say that the single person is "free" to focus on the Lord, but it still takes energy and discipline as a single person to bring one's full focus to the Lord.  This is likely why Paul admitted that one person has one gift (a married state) and another has another gift (a single state).  All paths of obedience are steep climbs and come with their own particular blessings.



I love this post.

It's interesting because I hear Paul's belief being brought up a lot in such conversations as to why it's "better" to stay single and why one can be "free" to focus on the Lord.

Yet in the same breath or in a different conversation, people will then talk about how great it is to be single because they don't have to cook, clean, be "up under a man," do their own thing, etc.

So I scratch my head... because we've gone from a Biblical take on singleness (Paul's -- which also required great sacrifice on his part to serve the Lord) to a worldly take on singleness ("It's great, because I can be independent, do what I want, not have to worry about what someone else wants for me, etc.")

And I wonder... wait, all of this independence and freedom... why are these concepts entering into a *Biblical* and *Christian* discussion about the benefits of remaining single? Why are we saying, "Oh, marriage is such hard work," as if staying single means we get to remain on Easy Street? 

I've noticed that I do hear this dichotomy a lot in church circles, and I think it gets to the point in your later post (which I'll also get to), and it does disturb me... because now, we're not talking about sacrificial love in any way -- whether as singles or married women -- we're trying to see how we can avoid "hard work," "giving up independence" and "sacrifice."


In the secular world, I'm totally fine with someone remaining single for such reasons. But in a Christian discussion, I am honestly confused about this... and there was a very vocal former poster on the Christian forum who often praised her friends' choice to pursue singleness (despite the fact that she was married) because they said they were tired of being "up under a man" and enjoyed their freedom. But for those of us who remain single, is that REALLY what God is calling us to?


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## Bunny77 (Apr 9, 2010)

nicola.kirwan said:


> Okay, so on Bunny's point.  What I'm seeing more clearly is that 1) we treat marriage like it is not an intentional choice, but like winning the lottery.  2) We treat it as a game of chance because we feel like we have no control over the process, and 3) We treat it as something mystical that we _hope_ will "happen" to us because we don't have a clear sense of any _responsibility_ to get married in the first place.  It's purely a _want_.
> 
> I think that the 3rd point is a part of the difference between the attitude toward marriage in American Christianity and that of other cultures.  In other places (or in the bible), marriage isn't just about what you personally stand to get out of the deal, how you feel, what you like.  Marriage and family are things that are bigger than the individuals that comprise them, and people are expected to enter into that broader institution.  In the US, more and more people are wondering why they should put up with all the obligations of marriage and family when they can just be single and basically have their cake and eat it too.  Christians aren't trying to have it both ways generally, but I do think the attitude that marriage is purely a "want" has creeped in.  As it has been mentioned, people are focusing purely on marriage as a way of getting the lovey dovey stuff without also looking at the broader picture and purpose.
> 
> ...



I'm definitely interested in discussing this whole thing more... you've really touched on a lot of things here and made me think...

Going back to an earlier post by Nathansgirl, she said -- and I agreed -- that when people talk about marriage, they talk about finding love. Now, I too was in this camp.

I say "was" for a reason.

The more I began to study marriage from a variety of perspectives, including Christian ones, I changed my entire outlook. Yes, love is a wonderful thing and I will love the man I marry. But for Christians to break the institution to just "love" -- which is focused really on what a person "gets" out of marriage -- this leads to the issue we have here now.

I see marriage as a responsibility. While yes, I expect to benefit from the institution, I also expect to use it as an act of service. Service to my partner, service to my children, service to my community and most of all, service to God. I think marriage is also an institution that helps individuals mature and learn that they have to sometimes subjugate their own needs for the good of others. I admit I'm not looking forward to cooking more, getting up earlier, etc., but you know, overall, I think it would be good for me to move into a more selfless way of living. Not that there's been anything wrong with my years living single, free and independently, but that's not where I want to remain for the rest of my life. I welcome the opportunity to develop the sacrifical characteristics needed to be a wife and mother. 

The sad thing is, when getting married is placed on the same level as getting a new house or car, it cheapens and lessens the greater purpose of it. I think among some Christians, I'd get more support if I said I would like a larger home as opposed to saying that I would like to get married. 

For cultures (including Christian ones -- it's not just a Muslim and Jewish thing) that believe in marriage and family as the building block and cornerstone of the community, people take on that sense of duty and responsibility in their quest for marriage. And it's not surprising that they usually find it much easier to get married and don't have to "wait" very long to find a partner. When it's promoted as a responsibility, a task that the Lord has placed on us to continue to build His kingdom, people have no issues with making that happen in a very specific time range.

This is what's missing in American Christianity, although I do see more of this ideal among Catholics and maybe some of the older Lutheran/Anglican denominations. My boyfriend is Lutheran, and this  "maybe you won't get married/who knows when it will happen" concept is completely foreign to him. He's also struggling to understand how that idea took root in the Evangelical Christian world. They might not push early marriage, but they don't do singles ministries/conferences and the like in which the God's will/timing doctrine is spread.

Anyway, it was probably Maken's book that made me take deliberate, purposeful steps toward marriage, because I was in a "if it happens, it happens," mode before that. When I began looking at my life as one in which I was called by God to be married (since I was not directly told to be single and celibate), that's when I began to pursue it. And I've been surprised as to how quickly I found a partner who shared this idea. After years of just kind of floating along in the single world not really knowing how I would end up, the choice to pursue marriage suddenly put my life on a very directed path.


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## Laela (Apr 9, 2010)

Great points... I wish some of the other married women would participate in this thread, but at the bolded, I believe it goes both ways - for the men and women. 
Ruth is a  good example of positioning oneself; I think that's an act of faith (and a hookup from MIL)  

I don't believe God _chooses _a mate for us, that would take away our free will; but I do believe if we pray for guidance and He hears our prayers, He will allow certain people to cross our paths, from which we can choose our mates. Or He'll talk to the heart of others, who become matchmakers, like Naomi.  There's nothing wrong with having the desire to marry...  





loolalooh said:


> Good question. I am not sure .. it could be that some evangelical Christians have interpreted *Proverbs 18:22* more literally than the Jewish and Muslim women.
> 
> "_He who_ finds a wife finds a good _thing ... " _
> 
> ...


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## SelahOco (Apr 9, 2010)

I grew up in a very large church, and as I kid I always wondered why people would just "pop up" married.  Many people dated, got engaged and married very quietly and in very short periods of time.  Avoiding all the drama.

I remember several adults trying to "pair" the teenagers together and discussing what kind of husband or wife someone else would make.  It's partly why I stopped attending church as regularly after I got married, because it's almost like a cult-ish behavior.

Marriage is taught, but I think people's perception of the purpose and the practice of marriage is not fully developed.  It comes off as rather creepy.  Marriage is desirable, it's beautiful but it's also real life.  This person is your ride or die and you're the same for them - it's not all poetry, but thats what makes it worth it.  I know most people don't realize that going in.  It's very poetic to people.


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## Bunny77 (Apr 9, 2010)

loolalooh said:


> Good question. I am not sure .. it could be that some evangelical Christians have interpreted *Proverbs 18:22* more literally than the Jewish and Muslim women.
> 
> "_He who_ finds a wife finds a good _thing ... " _



And see, I've always wondered if people are misinterpreting that scripture. All of Proverbs 18 supplies direction to individual men about walking on a righteous path. I think it's quite illuminating that men are told to find WIVES (in other words, get married and take on the responsibilty of providing for a family) and that men who do this receive favor from the Lord.

This scripture is not addressed to women at all. It's a directive to men to get married. It says nothing about what a woman should or should not do in the pursuit of marriage.

So, I don't necessarily think there's anything for Christian *women* to interpret in this verse, other than to know that God gives favor to men who choose marriage. 




> In spite of that, I think single Christian women can be ... I'll use the word "active." Not chasing. Not consumed in finding the one. But active in that if God calls them to take certain steps to meet their future husbands, they better get on it.



Also agreed. I'd never support chasing or being consumed with marriage -- sometimes, it is good for us to be right where we are at a certain time -- but yes, one can be "active" in pursuing marriage. One should just know when that time is right for her and feels that God is calling her to do so. I can be honest and say that if I pursued marriage when I was, say, 25, I would have done it all wrong because my mind and spirit weren't in the right place y et. 



> I don't think all single Christian women should expect to meet their husbands in church, which is why some of these jealousy stories in this thread disappoint me. Where does it say that for every single woman at St. X church there should be a single man at St. X church, and if there isn't, get discouraged ladies?   There is nothing wrong with us being "active" so long as our guidance is truly from above.



I also agree. Just because one meets a man in the "world" doesn't mean he isn't Godly man. He just might not go to OUR church, but he can go to A church.


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## SelahOco (Apr 9, 2010)

nicola.kirwan said:


> I once read this article (by Debbie Maken maybe?) saying that if one is not specifically called to singleness, that one is called to marriage, period.  That singleness is the exceptional state, and that if one did not discern a call to remain celibate then one was, without a doubt, called to be married and therefore should take intentional steps to make that happen--like it's a responsibility.  This attitude only makes sense if marriage is an institution beyond the individual's personal desires.  I would be interested in discussing that concept here for any takers.
> 
> Sorry for the length...now this is like a puzzle that I feel compelled to solve.  Something's really "off" about all of this.



I really enjoyed your post.  And it made me think about some things I've seen happen in the church I grew up in.  Our church had like 5,000 members and 70  percent of them were women.

I don't think people really ever considered being single.  "It's better to marry then to burn."  "I'm a good thang, and someone's gone find me."

Being single was like an unfortunate situation.  It meant you could never have sex and that no man thought that you were interesting enough to be "found."

It was also a weird state for women in a church full of other women.  They were supposed to wait to be "found" but the odds were against them in terms of the number of men.  Not to mention that every man in that church was not a good man.

I think it made women nervous, and sad - scared that they would never be able to honor god with their lives AND love a man with her heart, soul and body.  She couldn't "find" him, she couldn't marry an unsaved man, and she couldn't have sex outside of marriage.

Having a man court and want to marry her was like the ultimate prize.  It would allow her to finally be a sensual, desired woman.  It would allow her to have a family.  It was such an emotional thing for the women I knew.  But as soon as they got married, they'd come to church looking all worn down and depressed. 

They never considered that the sex would be cool, but he'd get on your darn nerves trying to make you be submissive.   It's a learning process.  And it's work people don't count on.

Being unmarried is a gift for those who don't desire marriage.  You'd be able to focus on God, helping people, and living your dreams in a completely different way than married folk.

But, hope deferred makes the heart sick, right?  If someone wants to be married, but doesn't feel empowered to make that happen - it gets "spooky" and "deep" every time a new man comes into the church.  I wonder how it would be different if there were more men than women.


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## nathansgirl1908 (Apr 9, 2010)

Bunny77 said:


> I love this post.
> 
> It's interesting because I hear Paul's belief being brought up a lot in such conversations as to why it's "better" to stay single and why one can be "free" to focus on the Lord.
> 
> ...



I don't see the problem with those things coming together in the same discussion.  They are not mutually exclusive.  All of that stuff about independence is boiling down to one thing: freedom to focus on things you want to focus on.  And if you choose to remain single to focus on God, then that all comes into play.  

And saying all of that stuff about singleness does not mean that you are expecting to remain on Easy Street.  But for some, the burdens of having to worry about and take care of another individual can be extremely cumbersome and take away from your quality of life in some aspects.  




> I've noticed that I do hear this dichotomy a lot in church circles, and I think it gets to the point in your later post (which I'll also get to), and it does disturb me... because now, we're not talking about sacrificial love in any way -- whether as singles or married women -- we're trying to see how we can avoid "hard work," "giving up independence" and "sacrifice."


You seem to think that sacrificial love can only exist in marriage.  As a single woman I have experienced "hard work," "giving up independence," and "sacrifice."  The difference is that when it involves something that I don't feel is necessary I won't put myself in that position unless it is something I want REALLY bad.




> In the secular world, I'm totally fine with someone remaining single for such reasons. But in a Christian discussion, I am honestly confused about this... and there was a very vocal former poster on the Christian forum who often praised her friends' choice to pursue singleness (despite the fact that she was married) because they said they were tired of being "up under a man" and enjoyed their freedom. But for those of us who remain single, is that REALLY what God is calling us to?



For some God MAY be calling them to do that.  I genuinely don't understand why this would be confusing to you unless you just strictly operate in the belief that God demands for EVERYONE to get married.  But I haven't seen anything to prove that this is what He wants.


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## Bunny77 (Apr 12, 2010)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> I don't see the problem with those things coming together in the same discussion.  They are not mutually exclusive.  All of that stuff about independence is boiling down to one thing: freedom to focus on things you want to focus on.  And if you choose to remain single to focus on God, then that all comes into play.



The argument though, is that whatever state that we're in, we're supposed to be doing that to focus on God. If one says he/she is staying single to focus on self, then how does that fit into a Christian discussion on singleness and marriage? That's my issue here -- if we are choosing to remain single for the purpose of collecting more "stuff," having fun, not caring for others, is this really a Godly choice?

(And for those who choose to marry only for self-gratification, I would ask the same thing.)




> But for some, the burdens of having to worry about and take care of another individual can be extremely cumbersome and take away from your quality of life in some aspects.



And I do think this is why we need to do more to teach young men about their roles in a marriage. I do agree that more women than men suffer and give up more in a marriage because too many men aren't pulling their weight in such cases. I would not marry (and didn't) if I knew that a man was not going to make any effort to sacrifice himself for me as I would for him. I'm not one here blaming women for not marrying... men should be the ones presenting themselves to women as potential husbands and fathers. 




> You seem to think that sacrificial love can only exist in marriage.  As a single woman I have experienced "hard work," "giving up independence," and "sacrifice."  The difference is that when it involves something that I don't feel is necessary I won't put myself in that position unless it is something I want REALLY bad.


Again, you're missing my point. I said you cannot compare the type of sacrificial love that exists in a marriage to the type of sacrificial love that exists in other relationships. The type of love shared between a man and a woman in marriage is not replicated in any other relationship.

You were also the one who said that marital love was "limited love" compared to "unconditional love" from family and true friends. Which was something I did not understand... where in the Bible is it mentioned that marital love is "limited?"

Ephesians has what I consider to be God's definition of sacrifical love in a marital context. Others verses discuss relationships between parents and children and friendships. 

*Ephesians 5:22-23: "Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband."

Genesis 2:18, 21-24: "Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh"*




> For some God MAY be calling them to do that.  I genuinely don't understand why this would be confusing to you unless you just strictly operate in the belief that God demands for EVERYONE to get married.  But I haven't seen anything to prove that this is what He wants.



Well, perhaps I do -- unless He has specifically called to you to be single -- and that could be the disconnect in this conversation. I also operate from a standpoint that marriage is a social, cultural and community expectation that has sustained the world for millennia. 

Paul and Jeremiah are the only two Biblical figures I know that were specifically told by God to remain single. And I think this is why I specifically question in Christian conversation when women are told to accept that they "might not get married." 

To me, the creation of Eve for Adam is evidence as to God's will for his people. Adam had God all to himself, and God still felt that he should have someone. So He made a woman for Adam. Not friends, not parents, but a wife. 

*Genesis 2:18: Then the LORD God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.”*


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## Laela (Apr 12, 2010)

That was funny.....





SelahOco said:


> It was such an emotional thing for the women I knew.  But as soon as they got married, they'd come to church looking all worn down and depressed.
> 
> They never considered that the sex would be cool, but he'd get on your darn nerves trying to make you be submissive.   It's a learning process.  And it's work people don't count on.


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