# Losing my religion



## webby (Feb 15, 2005)

I hope this is not taken the wrong way. I don't want to sound offensive, but I have a question.

I grew up in church(es) and as a result, I have somewhat lost my "religion".

I have gone to Pentecostal churches, Baptist, Ashrams (Hindu religion), you name it. I have heard people condemn Jehovah's Witness and was engaged to a non practicing Muslim, who had nothing but negative things to say about Christians.

I questioned "religion" itself and wonder if God cares how we worship.

For instance, in Spanish you call God "Dios". Of course, He understand each language, but does He care how we worship Him? Do you all think that God prefers a religion? 

I know this is a crazy question, but I have always wondered about it.


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## pebbles (Feb 15, 2005)

Hmm, your question is probably in the wrong forum, but let me say something to you. I noticed you said that you've been to many different churches, and they are of varying beliefs. The most important question I would like you to ponder is this: what do you believe in your heart? Once you answer honestly to yourself, then take it from there.


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## webby (Feb 15, 2005)

Pebbles, I probably didn't ask my question the way I intended. I have so many thoughts going on at one time, it's often difficult to form a cohesive sentence 

I believe in God, Jesus Christ is my saviour. I just often wonder if there is such thing as a "right way" to worship. Does that make any sense?


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## Belle Du Jour (Feb 15, 2005)

Webby, 
I'm currently reading the Purpose Driven Life, and one of the chapters is on worship. I believe you can go to Church with hate in your heart and claim to "worship" but God doesn't recognize it.  I think you can go to work, read a book, help someone out, appreciate a sunny day with an attitude of thansgiving, and it's a form of worship.  

I don't think God is as concerned with tradition as much as we are.  God looks at the heart first and foremost.  I think the best way that we can worship God is to follow His commandments and be kind to other people.


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## pebbles (Feb 15, 2005)

Oh, ok! I thought you were saying you weren't sure what to believe in. Sorry! 

Ok. I started to type this really long explanation, but give me some time to think of a more simplified answer.


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## cece22 (Feb 15, 2005)

Weby,

I understand your question in full let me rephrase so we are on the same page. You want to know is there a right way to worship or a particular way that pleases God? To find the answers to these questions it takes guidance from God so pray to him directly and ask him. Secondly it takes serious study and meditation the best place to start is in the Bible it has all his past dealing his requirements and all of the things that he wants from us humans. Also you can learn things from others  but you have to be careful not all things are true and God is a God of Truth so any religion that knowingly supports false doctrines or lies is not pleasing to God.

John 8:32 And you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit and those worshiping him must worship in spirit and truth.


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## BlkHoneyLuv2U (Feb 15, 2005)

classimami713 said:
			
		

> Webby,
> I'm currently reading the Purpose Driven Life, and one of the chapters is on worship. I believe you can go to Church with hate in your heart and claim to "worship" but God doesn't recognize it. I think you can go to work, read a book, help someone out, appreciate a sunny day with an attitude of thansgiving, and it's a form of worship.
> 
> I don't think God is as concerned with tradition as much as we are. God looks at the heart first and foremost. I think the best way that we can worship God is to follow His commandments and be kind to other people.


 
What she said. I know there have been times while I was still in college, I would take my kids to school and then come home, go out on my front porch with a cup of coffee and just sit and watch the squirrels in the trees, listen to the birds singing their songs, the wind softly blowing the leaves, the sun shinning through the branches. All of this would bring a smile to my face. I think God appreciates it when we look around at the things He created for us and it brings a smile to our face. I've been driving in my car and can see something in nature that makes me smile and thnak God for whatever it is.


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## webby (Feb 15, 2005)

Thank you ladies 

Pebbles, this is a very difficult question for me to phrase properly; I believe that Cece nailed what I was trying to say.

The reason why I wanted to bring this question to all of you, is because I knew that it would be received with love, not taken with malice.

I have always pondered what God, Himself thought of religion. For instance, does God love me more, because I'm not Muslim? Then that question would lead me to ask, well certainly God loves Muslims too; He wouldn't turn His back on them, but we worship and praise God so very differently.


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## pebbles (Feb 15, 2005)

webby said:
			
		

> Thank you ladies
> 
> Pebbles, this is a very difficult question for me to phrase properly; I believe that Cece nailed what I was trying to say.
> 
> ...



Oh, I absolutely understand your plight. And I'm glad that Cece was able to answer it in a very simple and basic way. This is a difficult question for me to answer because I'm ever mindful of the fact that there are people of different faiths that will view this forum, and it is not my intention to hurt or allienate anyone. So let me put it as simply as I can. One of my favortite bible teachers said it best. Religion, in general, is fallen humanities attempt to reach up to God and be acceptable through their _works_ and what they _do._ Christianity, on the other hand, is a divine gift based on what _Christ has done._ He did it all on the cross.

When you worship God, worship Him in spirit and in truth-John 4:23. Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness, giving glory that is due to His name-Psalms 29:2.  Be blessed, sis!


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## beverly (Feb 15, 2005)

Webby I think I can answer part of what you are asking. I recently started going to an AME church. I grew up in a baptist church all my life. Denominationally I personally don't think it matters what church/denomination it is because its all based on the same principles, Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are one. We have little things we do in service traditionally that may differ, but our foundation is still based on the holy bible. If you believe in the Christian faith, according to the bible, it is very specific that God gives eternal life and salvation only to those who believe that Jesus Christ is his son, and he died for our sins to bring us back into the lost relationship that we had before Adam sinned. Muslim, and other faiths believe either that Jesus is not the savior/son of God, or are still waiting for the savior to return. So for example, if one believes according to the Muslim faith, according to the bible, that person will not recieve salvation or enter heaven.


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## webby (Feb 15, 2005)

beverly said:
			
		

> Webby I think I can answer part of what you are asking. I recently started going to an AME church. I grew up in a baptist church all my life. Denominationally I personally don't think it matters what church/denomination it is because its all based on the same principles, Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are one. We have little things we do in service traditionally that may differ, but our foundation is still  based on the holy bible. If you believe in the Christian faith, according to the bible, it is very specific that God gives eternal life and salvation only to those who believe that Jesus Christ is his son, and he died for our sins to bring us back into th lst relationship that we had before Adam sinned. Muslim, and other faiths believe either that Jesus is not the savior/son of God, or are still waiting for the savior to return. So for example, if you believe according to the Muslim faith, according to the bible, you will not recieve salvation or enter heaven.



Ok...that makes perfect sense. I have always wondered about this, couldn't quite find an answer. Thank you


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## DelightfulFlame (Feb 15, 2005)

pebbles said:
			
		

> Oh, I absolutely understand your plight. And I'm glad that Cece was able to answer it in a very simple and basic way. This is a difficult question for me to answer because I'm ever mindful of the fact that there are people of different faiths that will view this forum, and it is not my intention to hurt or allienate anyone. So let me put it as simply as I can. One of my favortite bible teachers said it best. Religion, in general, is fallen humanities attempt to reach up to God and be acceptable through their _works_ and what they _do._ Christianity, on the other hand, is a divine gift based on what _Christ has done._ He did it all on the cross.
> 
> When you worship God, worship Him in spirit and in truth-John 4:23. Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness, giving glory that is due to His name-Psalms 29:2.  Be blessed, sis!



I see what Pebbles is trying to say, but I don't agree totally. To me, Christianity does the same thing. It says that inorder to be saved you have to ACCEPT Christ. Yet the bible says that God accepts you. The credit is being taken from God when people say this. 

Peter did not want to deny Jesus. He wept about the thought of it. Yet, he had to because it was the will of God. When it is God's will for a person to be saved, they will be. If it isn't, then they can't be. Will they go to hell (full of fire and brimstone) for doing something that they cannot do until it is time for them too?  I don't think so. The bible says that every tongue will confess Jesus. 

I said all of that to say that I was raised Baptist. Ventured into non-demoninational and pentecostal. I have lost religion, but I have not lost my spirituality, and Christ is at the core of that. I do not miss church and it's laws, and the truth really does set you free. I do sometimes miss fellowship, but realize that not everybody is able to "hear" what I'm hearing right now, so my fellowship is mostly on the internet and among a few close friends that "hear" too.


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## pebbles (Feb 15, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> I see what Pebbles is trying to say, but I don't agree totally. To me, Christianity does the same thing. It says that inorder to be saved you have to ACCEPT Christ. Yet the bible says that God accepts you. The credit is being taken from God when people say this.


I respect your views, but I'm saying what the bible says, and I adhere strictly to the book. The Word of God is clear that works cannot get you into the kingdom. You must believe and accept that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior, and that He died for your sins. That's it. Accepting Jesus is not works, but a confession of faith.


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## webby (Feb 15, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> The bible says that *every tongue* will confess Jesus.



That one line took my breath. That says it all.



> I said all of that to say that I was raised Baptist. Ventured into non-demoninational and pentecostal. I have lost religion, but I have not lost my spirituality, and Christ is at the core of that. I do not miss church and it's laws, and the truth really does set you free. I do sometimes miss fellowship, but realize that not everybody is able to "hear" what I'm hearing right now, so my fellowship is mostly on the internet and among a few close friends that "hear" too.


It sounds like I am on your path. I love the Lord, but don't always find the laws that we, as humans, impose to be Godly. I am trying to make it to church more now, for the sake of my son. 

I don't want to be a do-as-I-say-parent, but I also don't want to be a hypocrite.


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## DelightfulFlame (Feb 15, 2005)

pebbles said:
			
		

> I respect your views, but I'm saying what the bible says, and I adhere strictly to the book. The Word of God is clear that works cannot get you into the kingdom. You must believe and accept that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior, and that He died for your sins. That's it. Accepting Jesus is not works, but a confession of faith.



Believe me, I respect you too...and I too am also reading the bible. It just speaks differently to me. Everything I say is based on scripture. Everyone is going to believe differently based on interpretation and what God reveals to them. He has shown us different things...all part of His will...and I'm okay with that.

ETA: Wouldn't saying you accepted Christ count as works?


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## DelightfulFlame (Feb 15, 2005)

Webby, here's a site that an eye opener for me. I went with the intention of telling this man how wrong he was...but when I began to study the scriptures, I realized that I couldn't. www.bible-truths.com

Also, here are some of my journal entries on free will and other spirit stuff...I don't claim to know everything by any means...but I do know that what I have been "fed" doesn't add up. 

http://delightfulflame.bravejournal.com/entry/5845

http://delightfulflame.bravejournal.com/entry/7802

http://delightfulflame.bravejournal.com/entry/7815

http://delightfulflame.bravejournal.com/entry/7839

http://delightfulflame.bravejournal.com/entry/7861

http://delightfulflame.bravejournal.com/entry/8286

http://delightfulflame.bravejournal.com/entry/8883

http://delightfulflame.bravejournal.com/entry/9633


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## webby (Feb 15, 2005)

Delightful, thank you so much. I appreciate you taking the time to share that information with me.

To all of you have responded, I thank you too. I get so much from you all, more than words can say.


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## pebbles (Feb 15, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> ETA: Wouldn't saying you accepted Christ count as works?



Nope! Again, that's a confession of faith and has nothing to do with works. Absolutely nothing.


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## DelightfulFlame (Feb 15, 2005)

pebbles said:
			
		

> Nope! Again, that's a confession of faith and has nothing to do with works. Absolutely nothing.



So then do you believe that baptism is not necessary to be saved? Is that also a confession of faith?


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## MomofThreeBoys (Feb 15, 2005)

pebbles said:
			
		

> I respect your views, but I'm saying what the bible says, and I adhere strictly to the book. The Word of God is clear that works cannot get you into the kingdom. You must believe and accept that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior, and that He died for your sins. That's it. Accepting Jesus is not works, but a confession of faith.



ITA with one caveat.  You are only held responsible for the "light" you are given.  If someone doesn't "know" of Him, I believe they can make it into the kingdom.  There is a debate of what "know" really means.  



			
				delightfulflame said:
			
		

> Peter did not want to deny Jesus. He wept about the thought of it. Yet, he had to because it was the will of God. When it is God's will for a person to be saved, they will be. If it isn't, then they can't be. Will they go to hell (full of fire and brimstone) for doing something that they cannot do until it is time for them too? I don't think so. The bible says that every tongue will confess Jesus.



I respect your view too Delightfulflame, but I'm not understanding how you thought Peter had to deny Christ.

God gives us free will otherwise what would be the point of Jesus dying on the Cross? What would be the point of this sinful world? God could just command us to obey, make us obey and basically turn us into drones.  He grants us free will b/c He loves us. 

Peter had free will and he made the choice to deny Christ.  Christ saw the future and knew this would happen and told Peter this.  Just b/c Christ saw the future does not mean he made Peter deny Christ.


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## pebbles (Feb 15, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> So then do you believe that baptism is not necessary to be saved? Is that also a confession of faith?



The bible says that if you believe, you should be baptized. Mark 16:16 Yes, that is a confession of faith. When you enter the waters of baptism in front of a room full of people, you are making a confession of faith in Jesus.

ETA: Forgot to add the scripture reference. If you are obedient to the word, then baptism would be a given. It has nothing to do with what I believe to be correct, and everything to do with what the book says.


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## DelightfulFlame (Feb 15, 2005)

From what I can tell, Christ was sent here to save the world according to the will of the Father. Now, whether God would make us drones and the point of this sinful world, I don't know. I do know that God created evil because he said so in the bible. So apparently there is a point to this sinful world, and it is that way because God willed it that way. 

Isaiah 45 (KJV)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Romans 9 (KJV)
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 

Christ looked into the future...yes, I agree...since he is the beginning and the end. So what is the future determined by?  You think man can change the future? You think Peter did something that God didn't want him to do? So Peter is stronger than God?

What about Joseph...when his brothers apologized for selling him into slavery, he responded that it was God that brought him there (paraphrased..will have to find the actual scripture). 

What about Pharoah...remember when God hardened his heart?  Did Pharoah have the free will to unharden it?

What about Adam and Eve? You think this whole world wasn't meant to be?  You think we would be running around naked with lions picking fruit off trees right now if they hadn't ate that apple?  You don't think that if God hadn't intended for them to eat that apple that they wouldn't have?  God, almighty supreme, couldn't stop His own creation from doing something He didn't want them to do?

So do you also think that the devil was a good angel?  The bible says he was bad fromt he BEGINNING.

Do you think Jesus only came about because of Adam and Eve's sin? The bible says that the Lamb was here from the BEGINNING as well.

All of the names that are written in the book of Life...yep, they were written from the BEGINNING.

I don't know about you, but I see a PLAN or a WILL, and it ain't mines.


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## DelightfulFlame (Feb 15, 2005)

pebbles said:
			
		

> The bible says that if you believe, you should be baptized. Mark 16:16 Yes, that is a confession of faith. When you enter the waters of baptism in front of a room full of people, you are making a confession of faith in Jesus.
> 
> ETA: Forgot to add the scripture reference. If you are obedient to the word, then baptism would be a given. It has nothing to do with what I believe to be correct, and everything to do with what the book says.



So then you believe that everyone who isn't baptized is going to hell?  So the baptism is what saves?  What about the man who was on the cross with Jesus?  Is he the only one that will be saved without being baptized?


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## DelightfulFlame (Feb 15, 2005)

Here's a scripture about God's will operating ALL things.

Ephesians 1:11
11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:


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## pebbles (Feb 15, 2005)

I believe that in creating Lucifer and giving him free will, God created the _potential_ for evil. Lucifer had freedom of choice, and he made the wrong choice. So did Adam and Eve. And because they had a choice to do good or evil and chose the latter, God had a "back up" plan for redemption. 

Whether we would all be running around naked in the garden of eden is beyond my knowing, because I don't know what God's *perfect plan* would have been. But I do know that because of the free will HE gave to Adam and Eve, we are all living in His "permissive" will. 

In the case of Joseph, God raised him up and brought him through, despite the evil plans of his brothers, who again, were operating with their free will. Again, God made a way out of no way. The Lord got some glory out of that situation!

In the case of pharoah, God made it so that His people would see that no matter how difficult things got, no matter how resistant the very nature of man could be, no matter how man can possibly think to thwart the plans of God and suppress His people, God is still in control, and there is NOTHING that can stand in HIS way when HE is of a mind to rescue you. All of that to prove to HIS people that HE is GOD, and in coming out of bondage, they shouldn't forget what HE did for them and worship other gods. But we know how that went. Free will in operation, again!

Jesus was always with God, before Adam and Eve, before the beginning of time. He came down to earth, left His throne of glory, to save them and the rest of us.

Because we are given free will, again, the LORD knows who is going to accept HIS word, and who will not. Thus those names are written since the beginning. Free will of man will either save him or condemn him.

And there is a plan. Redemption. At the end of this long story, the world will be just as the FATHER had planned for it to be. The human race just decided to take the "scenic" route.


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## DelightfulFlame (Feb 15, 2005)

So God doesn't have a mind to rescue everyone?

1 Timothy 2
  4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 
   5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 
   6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 

So they were operating in "free will" in the evil that God put in them and didn't plan for them to use?  Remember, he said He created evil and creates one vessel for dishonor and one for honor.

So "free will" (i.e. man's will) is what saves us?  I thought it was God. 

Romans 3
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

John 15:16
16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.


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## pebbles (Feb 15, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> So then you believe that everyone who isn't baptized is going to hell?  So the baptism is what saves?  What about the man who was on the cross with Jesus?  Is he the only one that will be saved without being baptized?



Delightful, I think you miss the point of that. The man was on the cross and Jesus on another cross beside him. There was no way for Jesus to baptize him there and then. But the man made a confession of faith, and Jesus saved him right there. Had they been on the ground in a different situation, Jesus would have told him to be baptized. 

I don't know if he will be the only one saved without being baptized. Perhaps not, but that's a question for Jesus. Only the Lord knows that. But I will say this: disobedience to the word of God has consistently gotten man into trouble. If the word of God says if you believe you should be baptized, I wonder why anyone would argue with that simple directive? That's what's most startling to me. I don't understand why that would be argued by anyone.


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## DelightfulFlame (Feb 15, 2005)

and...God purposely created millions of children to be as kindling for a never ending hell fire...these same children that He loves so much, He sent His only begotten son to save them.

And this son, the savior of the world, will in fact not save the world?


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## MomofThreeBoys (Feb 15, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> Christ looked into the future...yes, I agree...since he is the beginning and the end. So what is the future determined by? You think man can change the future? You think Peter did something that God didn't want him to do? So Peter is stronger than God?



Yes, he did something God wouldn't want him to do. I believe he gives us free will. Now there are times God will intervene in a situation and use others unexpectedly or willingly. But we are responsible for the decisions/choices we make. 

I don't think its about being stronger than God. He let's us make our own decisions. Otherwise, I could run around and do absolutely anything I wanted and b/c it happened I could say "Hey, God must have wanted it to happen". I would be absolved of anything I did wrong b/c God willed it.



> What about Joseph...when his brothers apologized for selling him into slavery, he responded that it was God that brought him there (paraphrased..will have to find the actual scripture).



This statement represents how God turned a situation for that family's benefit. When he was sold into slavery he could have ended up anywhere. But God orchestrated the situation such that their evil act ended up accomplishing good.



> What about Pharoah...remember when God hardened his heart?  Did Pharoah have the free will to unharden it?



We have to remember the bible we read is a translation and many times we have to go to the original text and read all synonyms for that word. Here is an article that explains it WAY BETTER than I could ever can.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/modules.php?name=Read&cat=7&itemid=2259 


> Here' is a blurb from the article:
> In the case of Pharaoh, “God hardened Pharaoh’s heart” in the sense that God provided the circumstances and the occasion for Pharaoh to be forced to make a decision. God sent Moses to place His demands before Pharaoh. Moses merely announced God’s instructions. God even accompanied His Word with miracles—to confirm the divine origin of the message (cf. Mark 16:20). Pharaoh made up his own mind to resist God’s demands. Of his own accord, he stubbornly refused to comply. Of course, God provided the occasion for Pharaoh to demonstrate his unyielding attitude. If God had not sent Moses, Pharaoh would not have been faced with the dilemma of whether to release the Israelites. So God was certainly the instigator and initiator. But He was not the author of Pharaoh’s defiance.
> 
> Notice that in a very real sense, all four of the following statements are true: (1) *God* hardened Pharaoh’s heart; (2) *Moses* hardened Pharaoh’s heart; (3) the *words* that Moses spoke hardened Pharaoh’s heart; (4) *Pharaoh* hardened his own heart. All four of these observations are accurate, depicting the same truth from different perspectives. In this sense, God is responsible for everything in the Universe, i.e., He has provided the occasion, the circumstances, and the environment in which all things (including people) operate. But He is not guilty of wrong in so doing. From a quick look at a simple Hebrew idiom, it is clear that God did not unjustly or directly harden Pharaoh’s heart. God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34), He does not act unjustly (Psalms 33:5), and He has always allowed humans to exercise their free moral agency (Deuteronomy 30:19). God, however, does use the wrong, stubborn decisions committed by rebellious sinners to further His causes (Isaiah 10:5-11). In the case of Pharaoh’s hardened heart, God can be charged with no injustice, and the Bible can be charged with no contradiction. Humans were created with free moral agency and are culpable for their own actions.





> What about Adam and Eve? You think this whole world wasn't meant to be? You think we would be running around naked with lions picking fruit off trees right now if they hadn't ate that apple? You don't think that if God hadn't intended for them to eat that apple that they wouldn't have? God, almighty supreme, couldn't stop His own creation from doing something He didn't want them to do?



ummm....Yes!



> So do you also think that the devil was a good angel?  The bible says he was bad fromt he BEGINNING.



I would love for you to read the section that talks about "Was Satan created evil?" in the following article.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/pdfs/e-books_pdf/s-hom.pdf



> Do you think Jesus only came about because of Adam and Eve's sin? The bible says that the Lamb was here from the BEGINNING as well.



ummm.....Yes again! God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit have always been here according to the word of God! That doesn't mean he was to die from the beginning.



> All of the names that are written in the book of Life...yep, they were written from the BEGINNING.



Can you quote the exact text you are referring to?



> I don't know about you, but I see a PLAN or a WILL, and it ain't mines.



I see a plan as well!!!  But I still see where I make choices!

Deut. 30:19
This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 

I CHOOSE Life!

Girl, you are making me work for it!!!  We have truly hijacked Webby's thread!  I'm sorry I had to quote a few articles, but I would have had to write a book to answer all those questions. And they say it so much better than I can!


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## DelightfulFlame (Feb 15, 2005)

pebbles said:
			
		

> Delightful, I think you miss the point of that. The man was on the cross and Jesus on another cross beside him. There was no way for Jesus to baptize him there and then. But the man made a confession of faith, and Jesus saved him right there. Had they been on the ground in a different situation, Jesus would have told him to be baptized.
> 
> I don't know if he will be the only one saved without being baptized. Perhaps not, but that's a question for Jesus. Only the Lord knows that. But I will say this: disobedience to the word of God has consistently gotten man into trouble. If the word of God says if you believe you should be baptized, I wonder why anyone would argue with that simple directive? That's what's most startling to me. I don't understand why that would be argued by anyone.



My point is that you cannot go against the will of God. His will is done. I believe that I should be baptized...and I was...twice. That was God's will for my life. There are other people that will not be baptized before they die. They may not even confess before they die. But they will confess and they will be saved according to God's will in His time.


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## pebbles (Feb 15, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> So God doesn't have a mind to rescue everyone?
> 
> 1 Timothy 2
> 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
> ...



Of course God is of a mind to save all of us. That's why JESUS came. But there are people who do not want to ACCEPT CHRIST as their LORD and SAVIOR. I know plenty of people who think this is all foolishness. Don't you?
I think this is turning argumentative, and I don't want to do that. I've said what I had to say. But clearly, we're not in the same place. Thank-you for the discussion. Peace! :Rose:


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## MomofThreeBoys (Feb 15, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> and...God purposely created millions of children to be as kindling for a never ending hell fire...these same children that He loves so much, He sent His only begotten son to save them.
> 
> And this son, the savior of the world, will in fact not save the world?



I don't believe in an ever ending fire. I don't know how long it will last but I do not believe God is a tortuerer. What kind of God would he be if he left them to burn forever! I think they will be forever dead but not forever burning.

 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth." "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." Revelation 21:1, 4.

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1, 3


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## webby (Feb 15, 2005)

natalied said:
			
		

> Girl, you are making me work for it!!!  We have truly hijacked Webby's thread!



I'm so glad that you all have "hijacked" it, because this is what I needed. I did not mean to cause a divide, but because the bible can be interpreted so differently, I figured so could religion.

I'm trying to keep up with each post, each reply...you all are making a girl work today whew!


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## DelightfulFlame (Feb 15, 2005)

LOL @ nataliered...sorry webby for hi-jacking. But we are studying the bible up in here, and I don't think she minds.

So, God hardens our heart sometimes and not others?  So if God hardens my heart to where I cannot accept Him, then I will go to Hell for that decision forever?  And how am I to know whether God is orchestrating me...or I am orchestrating myself?  And how can I orchestrate myself against God's will when scriptures say that God's will WILL be done?

As for choosing life...okay, I did when it was time for me according to God's will. I can not do so before then. This pertains to the scripture that I posted about God operating all according to His will.

off to read these books you posted.


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## pebbles (Feb 15, 2005)

Please know that where salvation is concerned, GOD WILL NEVER harden a person's heart NOT to accept JESUS. If that were the case, then free will would in fact be mass manipulation, and CHRIST would have died in vain. There is a difference when GOD wants to show HIS glory in the lives of HIS people during times of trouble, and HIS desire for us all to be saved. . .


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## DelightfulFlame (Feb 15, 2005)

Pebbles, I do not mean to be argumentative. I just have questions...so well, I guess that is an argument....but not in a bad way. A lot of what I'm saying is still cloudy to me as well, since I've just started down this path a few months ago. It is helpful to have some opposing views to give me some things to study. 

Thanks for your input, and I understand if you no longer want to participate. Hopefully we can all agree to disagree. Many of my friends think I'm nuts too, and that's ok. I believe we are just at different cross roads in our lives...none better than the other. Love, peace, and blessings to you.


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## pebbles (Feb 15, 2005)

Oh, no. I'm game. I got the feeling that you were getting upset, and I didn't want to add fuel to the fire. If I was wrong, I'm sorry.  I strongly believe that when one can shed light on scripture to help others, it should be done in a manner that brings honor and glory to GOD.


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## DelightfulFlame (Feb 15, 2005)

pebbles said:
			
		

> Please know that where salvation is concerned, GOD WILL NEVER harden a person's heart NOT to accept JESUS. If that were the case, then free will would in fact be mass manipulation, and CHRIST would have died in vain. There is a difference when GOD wants to show HIS glory in the lives of HIS people during times of trouble, and HIS desire for us all to be saved. . .



but the scripture said that God is operating ALL (not some) according to His will. 

I don't understand where freedom comes into play...or hardening hearts sometimes and not others...when the person doesn't know if He's doing what He's doing b/c God said so or because He said so...that is really confusing to me.

ETA: I'm going to lunch. Be back soon!


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## beverly (Feb 15, 2005)

Well for those of us who are believers of him and his word we believe all it says. God loves us all, but according to his word burning in the fires and all the other stuff is true for non believers. He allows you to come to him of your own free will. If you choose not to believe in him he can not save you its that simple. Baptism is not required to go to heaven, if you look at how Jesus saved the man on the cross, as pebbles mentioned previously, he was not baptised, he just believed and confessed. 

Romans 10:9-10: “That if you *confess* with *your* *mouth* the Lord Jesus and *believe *in *your* *heart* that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved!

When people say they don't believe in parts of the bible, then they are really saying that they don't believe in him. 

Peter wrote " Above all, you must understand that no phophecy in Scripture ever came from the prophets themselves or because they wanted to phophesy. It was the Holy Spirit who moved the prophets to speak to God.
2 Peter 1:20-21.

So when people say man wrote the bible that is not true at all, it was the Holy Spirit, which dwelt within them, and God delivered to us thru them exactly what he wanted us to know!

Lots of people that have gotten baptized and have turned their back on God, so in my opinion, based on my study I don't think they are going to heaven. Baptism to me, is more of an action you do to show the world and to signify the new person that Christ he has asked you to become. If you get baptised and do not strive to live according to the way he has called, then the baptism in itself means nothing and you will not please God, nor be in his favor. So again the only thing required for salvation is:

Romans 10:9-10: “That if you *confess* with *your* *mouth* the Lord Jesus and *believe *in *your* *heart* that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved!

Its just VERY hard to stay saved if you don't stay in his word, study, and fellowship with believers (which means going to church).


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## pebbles (Feb 15, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> but the scripture said that God is operating ALL (not some) according to His will.
> 
> I don't understand where freedom comes into play...or hardening hearts sometimes and not others...when the person doesn't know if He's doing what He's doing b/c God said so or because He said so...that is really confusing to me.
> 
> ETA: I'm going to lunch. Be back soon!



That's a fair question. I have to leave now, but I'll be back later this evening to see if I can possibly explain it more clearly. In the mean time, you ladies have fun! Blessings to all!


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## MomofThreeBoys (Feb 15, 2005)

Golly Webby. I never answered your question and this is your thread! I do believe God cares how we worship. Throughout the old Testament he punished the children of Israel whenever they didn't precisely worship him like they were supposed to. Check to see what happened to Eli's sons and Aaron's sons when they deviated from what/how God had commanded them to worship. We are held accountable for the "light" we are given. Some people don't "know" about Christ. Like I said in my previous post, there is much debate on what "know" means. Just b/c someone has heard of Jesus Christ doesn't mean the really "know" him.  I think God has to speak to you and you have to reject his speaking to to be held accountable.

God requires worship. He is very clear on that. Yes, many people interpret how to worship in different ways BUT like I said b4 you are only accountable for the light you have.

 Webby, I think you need to study for yourself so God can reveal his will for you to you. Nobody else can do that.

I suggest you do a bibly study and go from there. If you do not feel comfortable doing your own bible study, pray that God leads you to a bible study group with believers who are truly studying the Word of God. If you are seeking, God will help you find what you are looking for as long has you have a sincere desire to learn.



			
				webby said:
			
		

> I hope this is not taken the wrong way. I don't want to sound offensive, but I have a question.


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## pebbles (Feb 15, 2005)

beverly said:
			
		

> Well for those of us who are believers of him and his word we believe all it says. God loves us all, but according to his word burning in the fires and all the other stuff is true for non believers. He allows you to come to him of your own free will. If you choose not to believe in him he can not save you its that simple. Baptism is not required to go to heaven, if you look at how Jesus saved the man on the cross, as pebbles mentioned previously, he was not baptised, he just believed and confessed.
> 
> Romans 10:9-10: “That if you *confess* with *your* *mouth* the Lord Jesus and *believe *in *your* *heart* that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved!
> 
> ...




High-five, baby girl!


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## AnnDriena_ (Feb 15, 2005)

Worship is a lot of things. Get creative but be careful of some things like:

-First of all God does not want us to concentrate on Things when we worship (like rosaries, crosses, bibles). 
A pastor gave an example of people who need a little extra _help_ by having a cross or statue to pray to or in front of. They may not be worshipping the statue itself but that goes in the area of ideal worship because God wants all of your attention and *HE* wants to be your inspiration. He doesn't want *ANY* of your attention on things.

-Show offs. You know the people. In the bible it says when you do things to get the approval of man then that's your reward. So you sing so everyone can hear how great you sound. Good. They clap for you and then forget about you. That's your reward right there. Because you didn't do it for God's approval you did it for man. And you got it and that's that. Anytime you become the focus of attention with your bad singing or distracting show of adoration you disrupt the act of praising GOD. Not to say that people who get the holy ghost are doing this. But when you have to shout, cry and stomp at the drop of a hat. Or like some people do it, to get yourself motivated. Then you risk becoming the center of attention and that's not what worship is about. I repeat people who genuinely get the holy spirit are not what I'm talking about.

-I don't mean to rag on Catholics but repitition with the purpose of you thinking the more times you say it the better it will work. (This is not the same as pressing in to GOD and praying until something happens, like if someone is sick and you pray for them everynight). But with things like Hail Mary's. I know my friend is Catholic and she's was telling me about a certain number of Hail Mary's for a certain sin. She can say Hail Marys until her tongue falls off. God cares about your heart and when you say a prayer from your heart thoughtfully He cares and hears but just repitition because of tradition and decorum is not the right way to worship and Paul himself warns us of that in the bible.

-Once again not to rag on the Catholics but worship directed towards anyone but God is not worship. I know Catholics don't pray *to* saints but ask the saints to pray* for* them. But Jesus Christ died on the cross so that you will have a direct line to him. You don't have to pray to saints to ask them to put in a good word. You don't have to slaughter a lamb for the blood (He's the Lamb of God remember ). You don't have to go through priests (why are they so holy that they can be an intermediary between you and God? He sent his son to die so you didn't have to go through priests anymore). Also Mary is not to be prayed to. She is the mother of Jesus Christ but God Himself said you are so precious he will not share your worship and devotion with anyone else. I think his momma was included in that .

-Worship not directed at Him. That may sound like I'm treating you like you are stupid but many people didn't get that one in the biblical days and don't get it now. From those in the biblical days that worshipped the false Gods around them but were secretly Christian but thought it was all good because after all they were all praying to the same god, right? Wrong. God wants your effort. If you want to go to a mosque and throw up a prayer or good vibe thinking that it's all the same because it goes up and God's somewhere in the sky that's not worship. Imagine if someone was giving you money. You'd want that cash directed right at *YOUR* palm , not just left out on the table because you'd be around the table and you could just grab the money yourself. No. *You* want *your* money in *your* hand. That's God. He wants you to give him *his* praise directed at *him* specifically.


Great forum. You ladies are on point. I think I will be spending most of my time here from now on. Thanks mods. And Admins'.


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## DelightfulFlame (Feb 15, 2005)

Every one will confess to God...I'm assuming that with God staring you in the face you will believe (let me look b/c I have another scripture somewhere else too). 

Romans 14
 10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 

   11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, *every knee* shall bow to me, and *every tongue* shall confess to God. 

   12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

-----------------
So you have to stay saved? Isn't that working for the gift? What happened to confessing and believing? Now it's confessing, believing, fellowshiping at church, reading my bible, and staying in the word? 

Also, since we are sinful creatures (the way God made us), we all do wrong. To repent means to turn away...not just say sorry. So if I have to work to stay saved...and I die without warning and with unrepented sin (no time left to change), I'm no longer saved?


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## webby (Feb 15, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> I die without warning and with unrepented sin (no time left to change), I'm no longer saved?



Ok, now I have a question, so bare with me please...

Isn't suicide the one sin that God does not forgive, as there is no time to repent. If this is the case, then wouldn't it stand to reason that God also won't forgive those of us who have not repented at our time of death, regardless to the cause of our departure?


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## DelightfulFlame (Feb 15, 2005)

the only unpardonable sin that I'm aware of is here: 

Matthew 12:31
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

It's open to interpretation as is everything else. I think that it means that there are sins that if you repent from you might not be punished for. However, in this case...if you do this...you will not escape punishment.

Will you never be forgiven?  I think it would be funny for God to ask us to forgive, yet not do it Himself. He said that Love covers a multitude of sins, and He is love. He said that nothing can separate us from Him.

Romans 8
35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 

...

38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 

   39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

--------------

ETA: I've heard of that suicide sin in church, but haven't read anything about it in the bible.


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## AnnDriena_ (Feb 15, 2005)

webby said:
			
		

> Ok, now I have a question, so bare with me please...
> 
> Isn't suicide the one sin that God does not forgive, as there is no time to repent. If this is the case, then wouldn't it stand to reason that God also won't forgive those of us who have not repented at our time of death, regardless to the cause of our departure?


 
I think the suicide as an unpardonable sin came from the Catholic Church not the bible.  I'm still studying this so forgive me if I'm wrong. Some things we know come from knowing the Savior and his ways and some come from plain old being told.
With some of our beliefs and traditions I think it's a little helpful to remember Christians are follower of Christ but when religion starting getting organized more and not just house churches and word of mouth like the earlier disciples who spread the word then the Catholic Church came about. And the Christians are Catholics who broke away from the church because of the things the church was injecting into the gospel (Read about Martin Luther, an amazing man).  But some remnants of Catholicism still remain in some Christian denominations


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## DelightfulFlame (Feb 15, 2005)

Scriptures I spoke about earlier...I'm sure there are more...but here are the few I have.

Jesus from Foundation of the world ~ Revelation 13:8, 1 Peter 1:20

Satan a sinner from the beginning (not a good angel) ~ 1 John 3:8, John 8:44
In fact, Satan actually masquerades as a good angel ~ 2 Corinthians 11:14 
Purpose of Satan ~ Isaiah 54:16, 1 Corinthians 5:4-5

Names in book of life from beginning ~ Ephesians 1:4, 11; Matthew 25:34

God's will (no choice) ~ Romans 11:32, Phil 2:13, Eph 1:5, Eccl. 3 (a purpose for everything!)


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## DelightfulFlame (Feb 15, 2005)

Yep Ann...yet another reason why I'm taking time out from the church to see what is what...


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## pebbles (Feb 15, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> but the scripture said that God is operating ALL (not some) according to His will.
> 
> I don't understand where freedom comes into play...or hardening hearts sometimes and not others...when the person doesn't know if He's doing what He's doing b/c God said so or because He said so...that is really confusing to me.
> 
> ETA: I'm going to lunch. Be back soon!



Ok, let me try to explain it this way. 

The most important thing to understand is that _it is_ God's will that we all have free will. That was the plan when He created the angels, and when He created man. But in so doing, He knew that in giving us free will, many would choose not to believe. Why? Because He gives us the right to choose, and with choices available to us, it's a given that not everyone is going to make the right choices. So knowing this, our Father had a plan for redemption from the very beginning. The very idea that God had a plan from the very beginning because He knew what would happen is incredible, and I thank Him for it.

So then, didn't God know that Adam and Eve would sin and fall from grace? And if  He knew this, why did He allow this to happen? Answer: Because if He forces us to make the right decision, we no longer have the freedom of choice that He wanted for us, but are now living puppets. God wants us to choose Him of our own free will, not because He makes us accept Him.

And consider the fact that all throughout the bible, God continually gives us advice, if you will, on how we are to live in this life. What we are to do to draw closer to Him and to know Him as our Lord. There would be no need for that if we didn't have the choice to do what He says or not.

When God hardens someone's heart, it is always the means to an end that will bring glory to His name, and an understanding to His people of His nature and ability to be all that we need. It is further intended to drive home the point, that no matter what gods people worship, there is no way those gods can rise to the level He can and do the things He does. Why? Because they are all impotent, and dead to boot!

I hope I made it a little bit more clear. I tried to keep it as brief as I could.


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## Poohbear (Feb 15, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> So then you believe that everyone who isn't baptized is going to hell? So the baptism is what saves? What about the man who was on the cross with Jesus? Is he the only one that will be saved without being baptized?


 
Baptism does not mean salvation. It is just a symbol of your confession of faith.  As long as you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and Savior, then you are saved and will go to heaven.


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## Poohbear (Feb 15, 2005)

Webby, I wanted to comment on your statement about not having to tithe.

Tithing is not a choice, its a command.  You do have to tithe.  You must give God what's his which is 10%.  If you do not, you are robbing God.


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## pebbles (Feb 15, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> Webby, I wanted to comment on your statement about not having to tithe.
> 
> Tithing is not a choice, its a command.  You do have to tithe.  You must give God what's his which is 10%.  If you do not, you are robbing God.



A woman after my own heart.  Tithing is a hot topic for many, but I think the word of God is clear about it. And personally, I can attest to the fact that the Father takes care of those who obey Him in this area.

I do tithe. And yes, 10% of everything!! I haven't seen yet where Jesus says in the New Testament that we don't have to tithe anymore. The Lord loves a cheerful giver, so if there are people who feel they just cannot part with any of their earnings, or will grumble and complain about it, I do think it's best to keep your money.

Remember the story of Caine and Abel:

Genesis 4: 3"And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
4And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door."

If you look closely, the differences between the two were that Abel brought the first of what he had, the choicest, if you will. Cain just brought whatever he felt God should have, maybe even the leftovers.

When I think of all God has given me, and all He requires back is 10% and offerings, I don't see that as a big deal. If you make $1000 a week, and have to pay $100 of that and whatever you want over that, I don't see that it's too much to give for the work of the church.

If believers do not tithe regularly, how can the church function? How does it pay it's bills, and plan a budget, or help members in need? Should you go into a church and be fed with the word of God, and then leave the pastor to pay everything on his own?

Is everything in the Old Testament that is not validated again in the New Testament automatically null and void? I don't believe that to be the case. And search as I might, I haven't read the passage yet where Jesus says that tithing is no longer necessary.

I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I think 10% of my gross pay isn't too much to give back to God for giving me the health and the strength to work and make money in the first place!

If others choose not to tithe, that's on them, but just because some of us follow the principle of tithing doesn't mean we're operating outside the will of God, as I've seen suggested countless times. Tithing wasn't made up by man, it's a biblical principle. Man is selfish by nature. If it were up to man alone, clearly he wouldn't give a thing, let alone 1/10 of all he earns.

To quote from the New Testament:

1st Corinthians9:6,7-He which sows sparingly shall reap sparingly; and he which sows bountifully shall reap bountifully. Every man according to as he purposes in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of neccessity: for God loves a cheerful giver.

Galatians6:7-Be not deceived; for God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, he shall reap.

1st Corinthians16:2 says "On the first day of every week, each of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made."

Is this popular? No. Is it right? Yes.


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## pebbles (Feb 15, 2005)

Lastly, I would caution people from relying on the internet as their main source of teaching in their Christian walk. To my dismay, I see teachings and beliefs being spread around on the internet that are not "Bible" based but instead are one individuals belief, and that's a danger. I urge those who are not regular members of a church to find a church home that is teaching a doctrine that is in line with the word of God. Consistent and regular fellowship in a house of worship, with believers, under an annointed man of God, is essential to the growth of a believer. 

Trying to do it alone leaves you open to all sorts of beliefs that are not in line with the word of God, and that's a terrible place to be. It was fun!


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## DelightfulFlame (Feb 15, 2005)

pebbles said:
			
		

> Ok, let me try to explain it this way.
> 
> The most important thing to understand is that _it is_ God's will that we all have free will. That was the plan when He created the angels, and when He created man. But in so doing, He knew that in giving us free will, many would choose not to believe. Why? Because He gives us the right to choose, and with choices available to us, it's a given that not everyone is going to make the right choices. So knowing this, our Father had a plan for redemption from the very beginning. The very idea that God had a plan from the very beginning because He knew what would happen is incredible, and I thank Him for it.
> 
> ...



Yes, I agree that God does give us advice throughout the bible. But I also think that we cannot follow it unless it is time...as part of his perfect will/plan. 

I understand what you think about free will. I thought the same thing not that long ago. But I do not find support of man's will being supreme in the bible. What I do find is that God is operating everything according to His will. 

So if we can do things that God doesn't intend for us to do...then who is God?

ETA: As far as the Internet and finding information...who I am to question the messenger? I suppose it is better for me to listen to a man in a church building. That would be better huh?


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## webby (Feb 15, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> Webby, I wanted to comment on your statement about not having to tithe.
> 
> Tithing is not a choice, its a command.  You do have to tithe.  You must give God what's his which is 10%.  If you do not, you are robbing God.



I didn't mention not tithing, did I...may have been someone else, cuz my momma  always says that denying God his 10% is definitely robbing Him of His.


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## Nyambura (Feb 15, 2005)

AnnDriena_ said:
			
		

> I think the suicide as an unpardonable sin came from the Catholic Church not the bible. I'm still studying this so forgive me if I'm wrong. Some things we know come from knowing the Savior and his ways and some come from plain old being told.
> With some of our beliefs and traditions I think it's a little helpful to remember Christians are follower of Christ but when religion starting getting organized more and not just house churches and word of mouth like the earlier disciples who spread the word then the Catholic Church came about. And the *Christians are Catholics who broke away from the church* because of the things the church was injecting into the gospel (Read about Martin Luther, an amazing man). But some remnants of Catholicism still remain in some Christian denominations


 
I'm enjoying reading this thread and I am learning much, especially from the debates. But I had to speak about this: *Catholics ARE Christians*. People like Martin Luther who left the Catholic church are Protestants - and also Christians. Catholics believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; Christ is our Lord and Savior. That makes us Christian. True, there is no Biblical justification for confessions to priests; the Bible definitely says we can confess our sins directly. But religious customs are observed by humans and humans are inherently fallible; as such, Catholicism isn't the only sect with contradictions - they exist between various Protestant sects as well.

To me, people who "distinguish" who among us is Christian based on what version of the Bible we read (KJV, NIV, Amplified), or what SECT of Christianity we belong to, etc. etc., are suspect. *Interestingly enough, all the Catholic bashing* -and this is also w/r/t the post before yours that was full of "not to bash Catholics but..." and did anyway- *comes from people who are NOT Catholic.* I'll be the first to admit that I am at the learning stages, and not a Biblical scholar, but putting other Christians down to exalt one's own customs seems not at all about spreading the Word of God and more about human motivations.


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## pebbles (Feb 15, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> ETA: As far as the Internet and finding information...who I am to question the messenger? I suppose it is better for me to listen to a man in a church building. That would be better huh?



I never suggested that man's will is supreme in the bible. God's will is supreme above all, and we are all operating in the time that He has set. I thought that was a given. I don't think you were where I am, and that's because you are not communicating back to me what I'm saying. We're going around in circles and we seem to be arguing semantics.  But no biggie. And no, you are not to sit in a church building and listen to "a" man. What is best to do is to find an "annointed man of God", (there is a difference), in a house of the Lord that teaches the word, (not just a building that is called a church), with other believers where you can discuss the word and learn. If there is one thing I do know it's that the word of God is consistently consistent. And I question everyone that speaks a word that doesn't appear to line up with the word of God. I've learned not to let just any old teaching into my spirit. But that's another thread.


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## pebbles (Feb 15, 2005)

Nyambura said:
			
		

> I'm enjoying reading this thread and I am learning much, especially from the debates. But I had to speak about this: *Catholics ARE Christians*. People like Martin Luther who left the Catholic church are Protestants - and also Christians. Catholics believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; Christ is our Lord and Savior. That makes us Christian. True, there is no Biblical justification for confessions to priests; the Bible definitely says we can confess our sins directly. But religious customs are observed by humans and humans are inherently fallible; as such, Catholicism isn't the only sect with contradictions - they exist between various Protestant sects as well.
> 
> To me, people who "distinguish" who among us is Christian based on what version of the Bible we read (KJV, NIV, Amplified), or what SECT of Christianity we belong to, etc. etc., are suspect. *Interestingly enough, all the Catholic bashing* -and this is also w/r/t the post before yours that was full of "not to bash Catholics but..." and did anyway- *comes from people who are NOT Catholic.* I'll be the first to admit that I am at the learning stages, and not a Biblical scholar, but putting other Christians down to exalt one's own customs seems not at all about spreading the Word of God and more about human motivations.




Yes, Catholics are Christians. As a former Catholic myself, there were a lot of things that didn't sit well with me and left too many unanswered questions. 12 years spent in Catholic school under the teachings, and never once did I open a bible, because the nuns told us repeatedly that only the priests were able to tell us what the scriptures meant. And I had difficulty understanding why the stories in the bible were not to be taken litterally. At any rate, though there are many differences between the Catholic and Protestant faith, we do share the most important belief, and that is that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior.


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## Poohbear (Feb 15, 2005)

webby said:
			
		

> I didn't mention not tithing, did I...may have been someone else, cuz my momma always says that denying God his 10% is definitely robbing Him of His.


 
oops. i think it was delightfulflame.  sorry!


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## webby (Feb 15, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> oops. i think it was delightfulflame.  sorry!


That's ok momma...


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## fine_beauty (Feb 15, 2005)

Your opinions and sources about Catholics and Catholicism is so full of ERRORS. Please, carry out a search on my userid for info on what Catholics believe. Luterans founded by Martin Luther still hold dear to a lot of things he left them. Carry out a research on the Lutheran church. I believe these researches would shed light.

Thanks and God bless.
Editted to say: None of the above is meant as an insult. I do get passionate about my faith. I have come to the realization that convicting souls about the truth of his Church belongs to God and God alone.



			
				AnnDriena_ said:
			
		

> I think the suicide as an unpardonable sin came from the Catholic Church not the bible.  I'm still studying this so forgive me if I'm wrong. Some things we know come from knowing the Savior and his ways and some come from plain old being told.
> With some of our beliefs and traditions I think it's a little helpful to remember Christians are follower of Christ but when religion starting getting organized more and not just house churches and word of mouth like the earlier disciples who spread the word then the Catholic Church came about. And the Christians are Catholics who broke away from the church because of the things the church was injecting into the gospel (Read about Martin Luther, an amazing man).  But some remnants of Catholicism still remain in some Christian denominations



AnnDriena,


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## DelightfulFlame (Feb 16, 2005)

about hearing the Word of God from a spirit filled church with a spirit filled believer…I have yet to have my Spirit bear witness in a church like that. However, my Spirit has been doing just fine with what I’m learning a part from church. I am where I am because this is where God wants me to be, just like He apparently wants you at church.  Again, I’m fine with that. I don’t really care who God chooses as a messenger. I’m sure some people in Jesus’ day didn’t want to be taught by a carpenter’s son, but the ones who got past that…what a blessing they received. God doesn’t dwell in churches anyway (Acts 17:23-25, 1 Cor 3:16). Oh, and you never know where pastor’s get their sermons. I used to work for a pastor who listened to other pastor’s tapes, read books, the internet, etc. Was he any less of a pastor because of that? I don’t think so, because he preached what God wanted him to anyhow.

about tithing...I believe that what I said about that was in another thread. I do not believe that tithing 10% is required. It was required under the law, and I am no longer under the law. I am under the grace of Jesus. In my mind, it is a spiritual thing. Again, God is not reduced to an equation. If God wants you to give 100% then you should be open to that. If He wants you to give 1%, then you should do that as well. Anything more or less than what He tells your Spirit to give is an abomination. 

first of all, the tithe was not money. It was food. Most preachers will tell you it was because there was no money. But check out Deuteronomy. There was clearly money, and it was called “money”. In fact, if the place where the Lord told them to take the tithe was too far, they were supposed to sell the food that they had to tithe with, go to that place, and then buy some more food and/or strong drink (Deut. 14:22-29)

Abraham tithed on what he won in a war, not anything that he owned and had been blessed with from God. He gave it to a Levite priest and the king of Sodom. (Genesis 14:16-20, Hebrews 7:1-10)

Jacob tithed after God blessed him first (not before like some people who can’t even pay their bills, yet are paying tithes). (Genesis 28:20-22)

So what did they do with the tithe? They ate it and shared with the fatherless, the widow, and the stranger. (Deut. 12:6-18, 14:29)

The tithe was the seed, or the fruit of the tree. If it was an animal, it was the tenth animal whether it was good or bad…meaning the last tenth and not the first. If he has less than 10 cattle, he doesn’t tithe at all. (Leviticus 27:30-33)

The tithes from the children of Israel that God spoke to Moses about were to be used for a Levite inheritance. So if you weren’t a Levite and could trace your heritage back to Aaron, you couldn’t get the tithe. (Numbers 18:24-28) 

Israel, like Jacob, didn’t tithe on their poverty, but tithed on their increase and in the third year (Deut 26:12). Also did not tithe money (2 Chronicles 31: 5-12)

A new tithe set up by Hezekiah also does not mention money (Nehemiah 10:37-38, 12:44, 13:5, 12)

Paul taught to give freely according to what you have (2 Cor 8:10-12, 9:7)


Other tithes that don’t mention money (Amos 4:4, Malachi 3:8-10 (meat and bread…try putting that in the collection plate…lol), Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42)

Not under the letter (law), but under the spirit with the new covenant (2 Cor 3:6, Rom 2:29, Rom 8:1-4, 8-9, Acts 15:1-12, Hebrews 8:8-10, 13)

Finally, when did Jesus and the disciples tithe?  When did Jesus accept a tithe?  If anyone should receive a tithe, shouldn’t the HIGHEST priest?  In fact, Jesus threw the money changers out of the church (Matthew 21:12-13) He also didn’t pay the temple tax required under the law of Moses. (Exodus 30:13-16). He did pay it to save Peter embarrassment and not to offend them (Matthew 17:24-27), but not out of necessity. 

So how then did Jesus and the disciples support their ministry? *gasp* they worked!

Paul worked and said he was an example that we ought to follow. (2 Thes 3:7-9, 1 Thes 2:9, Acts 18:3, Acts 20:31-35; 1 cor 4:9-16)

So are we to give? Yes, we give freely. (Matthew 10:8, Luke 6:38, Acts 20:35, 2 Cor 9:6-7, 1 Tim 5:8)


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## AnnDriena_ (Feb 16, 2005)

Please point out the errors. 
Did the catholic church condemn suicide as the unpardonable sin or did the bible?
Do catholics not ask saints to pray for them? I know that many think that catholics pray to saints but that's a common mistake that I don't believe. I know that they ask saints to pray for them. Is that the error? Because it's true that Catholics
1) ask saints to pray for them
2) Pray to the virgin mary
3) Go to confession with priests.

Those were my statements regarding Catholics. And those are not errors. Those are facts supported by the Catholic Church. So please point out the errors to me.


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## webby (Feb 16, 2005)

AnnDriena_ said:
			
		

> Catholics
> 1) ask saints to pray for them
> 2) Pray to the virgin mary
> 3) Go to confession with priests.


That's what I thought too. If I'm wrong, please correct me.


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## AnnDriena_ (Feb 16, 2005)

Nyambura said:
			
		

> I'm enjoying reading this thread and I am learning much, especially from the debates. But I had to speak about this: *Catholics ARE Christians*. People like Martin Luther who left the Catholic church are Protestants - and also Christians. Catholics believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; Christ is our Lord and Savior. That makes us Christian. True, there is no Biblical justification for confessions to priests; the Bible definitely says we can confess our sins directly. But religious customs are observed by humans and humans are inherently fallible; as such, Catholicism isn't the only sect with contradictions - they exist between various Protestant sects as well.
> 
> To me, people who "distinguish" who among us is Christian based on what version of the Bible we read (KJV, NIV, Amplified), or what SECT of Christianity we belong to, etc. etc., are suspect. *Interestingly enough, all the Catholic bashing* -and this is also w/r/t the post before yours that was full of "not to bash Catholics but..." and did anyway- *.* I'll be the first to admit that I am at the learning stages, and not a Biblical scholar, but putting other Christians down to exalt one's own customs seems not at all about spreading the Word of God and more about human motivations.


 
Stating the differences in beliefs between Catholicism and Christianity is not bashing. Explain the bashing to me. If Catholics don't go to priests and confess then I lied and as far as I know I didn't lie and I didn't bash anyone for going to a priest.
None of the Christian churches I have ever been too consider Catholics to be Christian so I separate the two and your above statement:

*



			comes from people who are NOT Catholic 
		
Click to expand...

 *

Supports that. You just said the statements come from people who are not Catholic and you are correct I'm not Catholic, I'm Christian. 

I didn't put any statements in this topic to debate or offend and if something I stated about Catholics is not supported by the Catholic Church please point it out to me.


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## AnnDriena_ (Feb 16, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *AnnDriena_*
_Catholics
1) ask saints to pray for them
2) Pray to the virgin mary
3) Go to confession with priests_




			
				webby said:
			
		

> That's what I thought too. If I'm wrong, please correct me.


 
Those are the facts I stated that are apparently offensive to some. They were not meant to be offensive I just wanted to show the evidence for my belief in the difference between Catholicism and Christians.
It's like Muslims and Christians. Muslims believe in God but not the same one we believe in and to call them Christians just because they believe in God would be erroneous because the paths we believe in are different and Jesus said no man can get to the Father but by me and since Muslims don't believe in Jesus as the son of God then we don't believe in the same path.
So that's why my beliefs are the way they are. 

I'm not here to debate. I just know that in the bible there are a few things that separate Christians from others, well there are a lot but for the interest of shortening this post here are a few key ones that shape my view.

Jesus said do no pray to anyone but Him. He will not share our worship.
Jesus died so that the people could come straight to him and not have to go through priests.
In general study of the bible Paul warned against man inserting his own beliefs and customs into what is required of Christians.

It's not just the Catholic Church that does this. It's just that the Catholic Church is so organized about it and some things are now recognized as being religious when in fact they are Church requirements and not Christ requirements.

For example the last Christian church that I stopped attending has us stand up and read the Church Creed from the back of the hymnal before communion. For the longest time I thought this was a Christian creed but it was really the church's creed and when I realized that they were incorporating it as part of the communion I was upset and no longer go to that church. I don't like man putting his own little spin on things and making it seem as if it's from Christ. That baptist church was the second church I had ever been a member of I didn't agree with they used communion to get people to recite the church creed. 


Now there was nothing wrong with the Church creed but it should be recognized as the CHURCH creed and not incorporated into Holy and Christ commanded traditions.


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## DelightfulFlame (Feb 16, 2005)

back on the subject of free will...this scripture says that God DECLARED the end from the beginning...not very free to me.

Isaiah 46
  9Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 
   10*Declaring the end from the beginning*, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:


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## AnnDriena_ (Feb 16, 2005)

Delightful, do you believe in free will?
I like your post about free will. The people were instructed to give food because that is how the descendents of Leviticus, the priests, survived, our tithes sustained them and now we sustain our leaders with our tithes because our money is what we bring into our store house.

I think God already knew what we were going to do from beginning to end and he lets us do it. Knowing the mind and will of God is helpful too. He doesn't want anything bad for any of us but he knows the bad things we are going to do to others and ourselves.


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## DelightfulFlame (Feb 16, 2005)

Nope...I don't think I do. I believe in God's will. I believe the things we do were declared before we were born. I believe we all have a mission to complete while on earth, and we will complete it because it is God's will that we do.

I don't think we are running around here haphazordly doing things that God didn't intend for us to do. He created us, and planned what we would do way before we ever got here. Have I done bad things that I regret? Yes. Were they necessary? Yes. EVERYTHING has a purpose...according to the will of God. He has orchestrated it all. Man is not in control.

So then the argument becomes...well if you believe you have no control, then you could just do anything you want. No, I can't do anything I want. I can't kill a person...why?  because it is not in me to kill a person. that might change one day b/c according to ecclesiastes there is a time and place for everything, including killing. However, with the way God made me it would have to be a life or death situation. 

The point is that I can do nothing outside of what/who God has made and allowed me to be.

The scripture says that God DECLARED what would happen in the end from the beginning. So God in essence designed what must be long before it ever was...including me.


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## AnnDriena_ (Feb 16, 2005)

That's good reasoning but then if we didn't have free will it wouldn't be fair to put someone to death for killing another but that's what the bible gives for the punishment of murder. I think God has already let this thing called life play out and it's already done and now we are just going through it and he has already seen it from beginning to end. That's why he is displeased with some of the things we do because he didn't intend it for us but he lets us, within certain boundaries.


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## DelightfulFlame (Feb 16, 2005)

That's where we differ. I believe that nothing can happen that my all knowing, all powerful God doesn't intend. 

If I can do something that God doesn't intend for me to do (He being the creator of all things-even me and evil), then who is more powerful? who is God? Man is in control...making man God. I don't believe that. 

If we do things that God didn't intend for us to do, then we are not in His perfect will or plan. Scripture says that God's will is always done. (I believe I posted that one earlier).


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## AnnDriena_ (Feb 16, 2005)

I don't think anything can happen that he didn't intend but I do think he allows us to do things that he doesn't want for us and that are not good for us.


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## DelightfulFlame (Feb 16, 2005)

If He allows it...then He is in control. He could not allow it, but doesn't do that. For whatever reason, evil is part of His perfect will.


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## AnnDriena_ (Feb 16, 2005)

Yes. I think it brings balance. And that it's in all of us.


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## DelightfulFlame (Feb 16, 2005)

I believe so too. If there were no evil, then there would be no good. Everything would just...be.


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## pebbles (Feb 16, 2005)

AnnDriena_ said:
			
		

> That's good reasoning but then if we didn't have free will it wouldn't be fair to put someone to death for killing another but that's what the bible gives for the punishment of murder. I think God has already let this thing called life play out and it's already done and now we are just going through it and he has already seen it from beginning to end. That's why he is displeased with some of the things we do because he didn't intend it for us but he lets us, within certain boundaries.



 I'm with you, girl!


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## pebbles (Feb 16, 2005)

AnnDriena_ said:
			
		

> Please point out the errors.
> Did the catholic church condemn suicide as the unpardonable sin or did the bible?
> Do catholics not ask saints to pray for them? I know that many think that catholics pray to saints but that's a common mistake that I don't believe. I know that they ask saints to pray for them. Is that the error? Because it's true that Catholics
> 1) ask saints to pray for them
> ...



You're not wrong. When I was in catholic school, we did ask the saints to pray for us, we did pray to the virgin Mary, and we did go to confession.


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## Tai (Feb 16, 2005)

AnnDriena_ said:
			
		

> Worship is a lot of things. Get creative but be careful of some things like:
> 
> --I don't mean to rag on Catholics but repitition with the purpose of you thinking the more times you say it the better it will work. (This is not the same as pressing in to GOD and praying until something happens, like if someone is sick and you pray for them everynight). But with things like Hail Mary's. I know my friend is Catholic and she's was telling me about a certain number of Hail Mary's for a certain sin. She can say Hail Marys until her tongue falls off. God cares about your heart and when you say a prayer from your heart thoughtfully He cares and hears but just repitition because of tradition and decorum is not the right way to worship and Paul himself warns us of that in the bible.
> 
> -Once again not to rag on the Catholics but worship directed towards anyone but God is not worship. I know Catholics don't pray *to* saints but ask the saints to pray* for* them. But Jesus Christ died on the cross so that you will have a direct line to him. You don't have to pray to saints to ask them to put in a good word. You don't have to slaughter a lamb for the blood (He's the Lamb of God remember ). You don't have to go through priests (why are they so holy that they can be an intermediary between you and God? He sent his son to die so you didn't have to go through priests anymore). Also Mary is not to be prayed to. She is the mother of Jesus Christ but God Himself said you are so precious he will not share your worship and devotion with anyone else. I think his momma was included in that .


 
If you don't intend to "rag" on Catholics, what is your intention, Ann_Driena?  The Catholic Church *does not *require that anyone ask saints pray for them.  There is power in prayer.  So if I can ask my best friend, this board, my Church, and my priest to pray for me, why can't I ask St. Teresa of Avila?

Prayers like the rosary aren't about repetition.  When I pray the rosary, it's my personal meditiation that draws me closer to God.  While Mary is not worshiped, she is to be respected.  She is the mother of Jesus.  What if she had said "No" when the Lord came to her and asked her to bear His son?  It is only right to pay respect to Mary, IMO.  But respecting her and worshiping her are two different things.


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## pebbles (Feb 16, 2005)

Tai said:
			
		

> If you don't intend to "rag" on Catholics, what is your intention, Ann_Driena?  The Catholic Church *does not *require that anyone ask saints pray for them.  There is power in prayer.  So if I can ask my best friend, this board, my Church, and my priest to pray for me, why can't I ask St. Teresa of Avila?



The reason is that while the members of this board, your church, and your priest are alive, St. Teresa and Avila are dead. The bible says that the dead know not what the living do. They have no knowledge of the things of the earth. Ecclesiastes 9:3-12 is pretty clear on that. 

I do hope that people understand that the differences between beliefs is what is being highlighted. We're not here to bash or offend anyone.


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## MomofThreeBoys (Feb 16, 2005)

If she had said no, God would have found another worthy woman.  There have been times when God's chosen have strayed. 

See the story of King Saul.  God ended up giving his throne to David.



			
				Tai said:
			
		

> If you don't intend to "rag" on Catholics, what is your intention, Ann_Driena?  The Catholic Church *does not *require that anyone ask saints pray for them. There is power in prayer. So if I can ask my best friend, this board, my Church, and my priest to pray for me, why can't I ask St. Teresa of Avila?
> 
> Prayers like the rosary aren't about repetition. When I pray the rosary, it's my personal meditiation that draws me closer to God. While Mary is not worshiped, she is to be respected. She is the mother of Jesus. What if she had said "No" when the Lord came to her and asked her to bear His son? It is only right to pay respect to Mary, IMO. But respecting her and worshiping her are two different things.


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## DelightfulFlame (Feb 16, 2005)

It was God's will that she was the one...so she was. Who can say no to God? You mean that God would have re-written His entire will/plan for the earth because the one woman He chose to be the mother of Christ said no?  

Even if I think I'm saying no to something I think He's asking me to do...it wasn't in His will for me to do it then...or I would have. When God wants you to do something, you do it. No ifs, ands, or buts...

where did God ask Mary if she wanted to?  All I recall was an angel appearing saying that she would.


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## MomofThreeBoys (Feb 16, 2005)

Then why bother to worship?  Why read the bible?  I should just do what I want to do if I can't control antying.. 

It's would be much easier to believe what you believe.  That way, I could do ABSOLUTELY ANTHING to anybody and say "Oh well, God's well."  

Cheat on my hubby.  Sorry Hubby, God's will.
Steal. Rob. God's will.
Betray a friend.  Oops, God's will again.
Molest a child.  umm....God's will again.

Your way would be fun.  No need for jails b/c nobody should be accountable for anything they do.  It was Gods will.

No need fo jails.  No need fo apologies. No choice. No accountability..  God's Will.





			
				DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> It was God's will that she was the one...so she was. Who can say no to God? You mean that God would have re-written His entire will/plan for the earth because the one woman He chose to be the mother of Christ said no?
> 
> Even if I think I'm saying no to something I think He's asking me to do...it wasn't in His will for me to do it then...or I would have. When God wants you to do something, you do it. No ifs, ands, or buts...


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## DelightfulFlame (Feb 16, 2005)

Nope...doesn't work like that. I don't cheat on my hubby, go to jail, etc. b/c it is not God's will for me to. The mistakes that I do make, I get convicted in my Spirit something terrible. Was it God's will for me to make those mistakes? Yep. Everything that happens on this earth is God's will...OR ELSE IT WOULDN'T HAPPEN. 

How does the DIVINE creator, create something with a purpose, and then let it get out of control? Not just some joe smoe we're talking about here. It's GOD, ALMIGHTY. Who created good and evil, you and me with sinful natures. 

If He wanted us to be perfect, don't you think we would?  

If He didn't want us to be sinners, we WOULD NOT. 

Simple as that. He's God, and He always gets what He wants.


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## MomofThreeBoys (Feb 16, 2005)

Then why have jails?  Why would anyone every say sorry?  



			
				DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> Nope...doesn't work like that. I don't cheat on my hubby, go to jail, etc. b/c it is not God's will for me to. The mistakes that I do make, I get convicted in my Spirit something terrible. Was it God's will for me to make those mistakes? Yep. Everything that happens on this earth is God's will...OR ELSE IT WOULDN'T HAPPEN.
> 
> How does the DIVINE creator, create something with a purpose, and then let it get out of control? Not just some joe smoe we're talking about here. It's GOD, ALMIGHTY. Who created good and evil, you and me with sinful natures.
> 
> ...


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## DelightfulFlame (Feb 16, 2005)

because apparently they are part of His will too. Remember, He said He created evil. There is evil in the world. Evil has a purpose. I don't claim to know what that purpose is...I'm still trying to figure out mine.  But if you do something wrong, you will be punished. And that punishment is apparently part of God's will as well. It's definitely a learning experience when I do something wrong. 

I say sorry because I feel bad when I do something wrong. Apparently part of God's will too. And jails...yep...in His will to. 

You think that something can exist on this earth without being apart of His will?

Me and you conversing right now...out of all the people on earth...at this very moment...miles away from each other...all planned and a part of His will.


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## MomofThreeBoys (Feb 16, 2005)

No, he didn't create evil. He CREATED the being that started EVIL. There is a difference. Many biblical scholars who analyzed the orginal text believe this is what was meant based on the words used in the original language.

The god that you describe is cruel and heartless.

I know a God of Love.  A God of Love does not reconcile with what you are saying.  

Thanks for sharing your beliefs but I just can't buy it.



			
				DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> because apparently they are part of His will too. Remember, He said He created evil. There is evil in the world. Evil has a purpose. I don't claim to know what that purpose is...I'm still trying to figure out mine. But if you do something wrong, you will be punished. And that punishment is apparently part of God's will as well. It's definitely a learning experience when I do something wrong.
> 
> I say sorry because I feel bad when I do something wrong. Apparently part of God's will too. And jails...yep...in His will to.
> 
> ...


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## DelightfulFlame (Feb 16, 2005)

So he created a being and didn't know or plan for it to be evil?

Thank you too for sharing. We can agree to disagree. If everyone thought the same this would be one big boring place. Peace and love.


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## fine_beauty (Feb 16, 2005)

webby said:
			
		

> That's what I thought too. If I'm wrong, please correct me.



Webby, 

I have on other occasions and other threads in which you participated explained my faith. Your stance is non-confrontational and I thank you. If you're still interested in learning about the Christians who belong to the universal (catholic) church. Please pm me. 

Thanks and God bless,


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## AnnDriena_ (Feb 17, 2005)

Thank you pebbles. The differences are what I was highlighting. 
I respect Mary and other saints but when you say a prayer to her such "Mary mother of God...." then that's what I was talking about as worshipping her. God said to pray to no one but him so that's where my stance was coming from regarding that. I do not consider that to be "ragging" on Catholics.

And I didn't say the Catholic Church requires Catholics to pray to saints. But it is part of their doctrine and it is practiced in their churches. So that's why I attributed it to them. If they do not practice it in their churches please forgive me for saying so. As for asking someone to pray for you. That is a wonderful idea but the bible says the dead can't do anything for us. 

We on earth are actually saints. Yep. I'm not kidding. Saints are the children and ambassadors of God. So I also don't think the Catholic church has the right to appoint sainthood. Does that offend you? Well it shouldn't. I'm discussing the differences between Catholics and Christians which caused the offense in the first place and I'm just trying to explain my viewpoint that you said was full of errors which I have not seen any error in. So you needn't be offended on a personal level. But if my information is incorrect feel free to correct me please.

But I must say one more thing I do have a problem with the Catholic Church as an *organization*. Every church and denomination has it's faults and let's face it, some downright crazy people in it .  But with things like the case of the little girl in whose health problem wouldn't allow her to eat the normal communion wafer because of her allergy to it and a priest volunteered to give her a wheat wafer and the Catholic church disallowed her communion and said it was not valid.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5762478?GT1=4529
And the way they have been moving priests around who have abused children instead of dealing with them and protecting the little children (whatever you do unto them you are doing unto Christ). That sickens me to no end and it angers me that people have to picket and go to court with the Church organization to get some justice and the Catholic Church is still moving pedophile priests around.
Same thing with the Southern Baptist Association, Yep, their CHRISTIAN and I can't stand the way they try and put their organizational crap into CHRISTIANITY. Did you know that Baptists aren't supposed to dance? (David danced before the Lord and the Lord was pleased with his honest worship) Well good thing I'm not Baptist or the SBA would have a little problem with me.


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## Nyambura (Feb 17, 2005)

I haven't been on the board for the past couple of days so I'm just now able to respond to this. A glaring error that you state about Catholics, and that is not supported by the Catholic Church, is that Catholics and Christians are separate. Please point to anything from the Catholic Church stating that we are not Christians.



			
				AnnDriena_ said:
			
		

> Stating the differences in beliefs between Catholicism and Christianity is not bashing. Explain the bashing to me. If Catholics don't go to priests and confess then I lied and as far as I know I didn't lie and I didn't bash anyone for going to a priest.
> None of the Christian churches I have ever been too consider Catholics to be Christian so I separate the two and your above statement:
> 
> 
> ...


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## Nyambura (Feb 17, 2005)

AnnDriena,
Please go back and read my post. You may not be here to debate but it does not seem like you are open to correcting your ways, either. Nowhere in my post did I say that what you have listed immediately below was offensive to me. In fact, if you had read my post, you would have seen where I agreed that the Bible doesn't support confessions to priests. I also clearly stated that you are wrong if you think Catholics are not Christians. Your analogy between Christians and Muslims is inapposite. I don't care to debate either but I will point out what you said is wrong. Since Catholics are Christians, yes, the fact that you continually separate Catholics from the rest of Christianity is wrong.  As I said before, this suspect separation speaks more about human motivations and nothing about the Word of God.



			
				AnnDriena_ said:
			
		

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AnnDriena_*
> _Catholics_
> _1) ask saints to pray for them_
> ...


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## Nyambura (Feb 17, 2005)

I don't find your posts offensive at all, Pebbles. Differences between beliefs exist. You and I definitely agree on that. For the few who insist Catholics aren't Christians, such belief is not based on fact. And for those who insist, despite posts and evidence to the contrary, do appear to be here to bash Catholics and be offensive. It's one thing not to know something due to lack of exposure. It's another to plod doggedly on in ignorance irrespective of what is being shown to you (you in general, not you specific).



			
				pebbles said:
			
		

> The reason is that while the members of this board, your church, and your priest are alive, St. Teresa and Avila are dead. The bible says that the dead know not what the living do. They have no knowledge of the things of the earth. Ecclesiastes 9:3-12 is pretty clear on that.
> 
> I do hope that people understand that the differences between beliefs is what is being highlighted. We're not here to bash or offend anyone.


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## DelightfulFlame (Feb 26, 2005)

More on "free will"...someone posted this on another board. I thought it was interesting...
-------------------------------------
QUOTE(librarising @ Feb 25 2005, 06:30 PM)
Okay. I made a huge post yesterday disputing this but it got deleted, so here goes briefly again:

You have severly contradicted yourself in that statement. As many Christians believe, God is all knowing and all powerful, the Alpha and Omega, and is all knowing. But if you believe that God knows what path you will "choose", then that path has already been predetermined. If he knows and sees time as cyclical rather than linear, where the past and the present are one, then knowing the end result means that it has already happened - you don't have and were never given a choice. For instance, if I was clairvoyant and able to see into the future, and if free will did in fact exist, I could change the outcome. I would be able to see the outcome of Path A, and make it so that Path A did not end as I had forseen. However, if I could see into the future and tried to change my destiny, but no matter what path I took it would end in the same result, then my fate was predestined. Based on what you said, only God knows the beginning and the end. Therefore, I would have no knowledge about the end result, only God would. And if he already knows what will ultimately happen, no matter what path I've "chosen" or if I change my ways, then my fate has been predetermined.

I think the Merovingian in The Matrix Reloaded said it best: Choice is a concept created by those in power for those without power. The church seems to stress this concept of free will, while still putting forth the belief that God is omniscient, a clear contradiction in terms. It's like the age old philosophical question, "Could God create a boulder that was too heavy for even him to lift?" If you say no, then God is not all powerful. If yes, then God is not all powerful. Free will seems to me to be a concept originally stressed by the church for the purposes of having a chuch hieracy while pacifying the laypeople. If you are the master of your fate, then no one can ultimately be blamed for your mistakes except you. This concept seems to have worked well in the conquering and enslavement of other cultures via Christianity. A while ago, I started a thread on African Americans and Christianity. If we hadn't been enslaved would we still be Christian? And without being Christian, would we still believe in this concept of free will? 

People discuss free will in similar contexts everyday. Take affirmative action, for example. Those in power say, "We are all created equal and we have equal opportunities in life." The opposing faction says, "No, we stated on unlevel playing fields. Many of the mistakes I made, the chances that I did not get in life, and the things that I can't overcome were as a result of where I began and the situation I was born into." I'd say that most of us on this board might agree with the opposing faction. However when it comes to placing this in a religious context, many switch to the former statement where we proclaim that, "I am the master of my own destiny and my own choices because the Bible says so." thebibleheavilyeditedbythechurchsaysso

I would like to know how other cultures and religions view the concept of free will. The closest I've gotten to researching any opposing belief system in this area is the philosophical concept of existenialism via writings by Albert Camus such as The Stranger. As far as religious beliefs, I believe that free will could work if you were a Deist. As a Deist, you believe that God is the Clockmaker and Architect of the universe and that is where he ends. In this belief system, divine intervention does not exist and you are the master of your own destiny. However, if you are a Christian and believe in divine intervention and the omnipresence of God (where he sees and knows all before it happens), then I believe that you have underestimated the limits that this belief system has on the concept of free will.


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## pebbles (Feb 26, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> More on "free will"...someone posted this on another board. I thought it was interesting...
> -------------------------------------
> QUOTE
> (librarising @ Feb 25 2005, 06:30 PM)
> ...


No need to read any further. Here's the problem. This person believes that because God already knows what your decision is going to be, your destiny is "fixed." Yes, the Father knows what decisions you will make, but it's not because He made you make that decision. We have choices to make, and He knows what choices we will make. That does not mean that He made the choice; we made the choice. It is the Father's will that we have a choice. I wish I could explain better. I'll keep trying, though.


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## AnnDriena_ (Feb 26, 2005)

Nyambura said:
			
		

> AnnDriena,
> Please go back and read my post. You may not be here to debate but it does not seem like you are open to correcting your ways, either. Nowhere in my post did I say that what you have listed immediately below was offensive to me. In fact, if you had read my post, you would have seen where I agreed that the Bible doesn't support confessions to priests. I also clearly stated that you are wrong if you think Catholics are not Christians. Your analogy between Christians and Muslims is inapposite. I don't care to debate either but I will point out what you said is wrong. Since Catholics are Christians, yes, the fact that you continually separate Catholics from the rest of Christianity is wrong. As I said before, this suspect separation speaks more about human motivations and nothing about the Word of God.


No. I didn't say the Catholic church says that Catholics and Christians are separate. I said no church that i've ever been to has accepted Catholics as Christians. On the contrary ever since I became a Christian at age 13 whenever pastors are talking about the differences in religion many point to the differences between Muslims, Christians and Catholics


> A glaring error that you state about Catholics, and that is not supported by the Catholic Church, is that Catholics and Christians are separate. Please point to anything from the Catholic Church stating that we are not Christians.


As I've stated before I'm perfectly open to correction but besides the separations of Catholics and Christians which I never said was supported by the CATHOLIC CHURCH, so I don't know why you asked me to find where the catholic church supports that, I haven't found out the answer to my previous post. 
What was so full of errors about my post. The catholics praying to Mary when God said only pray to him? Or the asking the saints to pray for them? or the other points? *Please point the "full of errors" part out to me.*


*But again please show me in my posts where I said the Catholic Church supports this separation.* To the contrary The Mormon church is also calling themselves Christian. This nation being founded on Christian principles and Christianity being the majority they have found that it is less alienating and it helps with acceptance to be called Christian. But whenever there are differences being highlighted I've found that believers and non-believers alike will call to attention the differences between Catholics, Muslims, Christians, Mormons, Buddhists and etc. 

If they thought any of those were the same religion it would confusing as to why they would contrast and compare them as such. They being the educated clergy and everyday laymen.

I know there are differences in the way some Christians worship but if they believe and follow the biblical tenents of the bible and the way Christ taught then they are following Christ. But things like praying to anyone other than God is more than a difference in the way worship is done. That seems to be a difference in beliefs. The bible teaches about repititious prayer so when an organization such as the Catholic Church trains priests who then go out and give instructions to their parishoners such as 50 Hail Marys for forgiveness of this or that. That to me is a difference in *belief and is a practice that is  in direct contradiction with what the bible teaches. *


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## AnnDriena_ (Feb 26, 2005)

pebbles said:
			
		

> No need to read any further. Here's the problem. This person believes that because God already knows what your decision is going to be, your destiny is "fixed." Yes, the Father knows what decisions you will make, but it's not because He made you make that decision. We have choices to make, and He knows what choices we will make. That does not mean that He made the choice; we made the choice. It is the Father's will that we have a choice. I wish I could explain better. I'll keep trying, though.


 
That's excellent. It sounds like something I heard in a sermon once where our pastor said God didn't want a bunch of robots worshipping him because if he did he'd make better robots than us who keep turning against him.


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## DelightfulFlame (Feb 26, 2005)

pebbles said:
			
		

> No need to read any further. Here's the problem. This person believes that because God already knows what your decision is going to be, your destiny is "fixed." Yes, the Father knows what decisions you will make, but it's not because He made you make that decision. We have choices to make, and He knows what choices we will make. That does not mean that He made the choice; we made the choice. It is the Father's will that we have a choice. I wish I could explain better. I'll keep trying, though.



  that still doesn't make sense to me. You don't get to choose how you begin your life, yet you get to choose how you end it?  Unless of course God's will calls for you to do something spectacu lar...then you don't get a choice about that...but you do get to choose the rest of it?  I've never read that it is the God's will that we have a choice...where is that?

Is your destiny changeable?  If the Father already knows the beginning and the end...what can you change about it? And if you can't change it...where is the free will?


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## pebbles (Feb 26, 2005)

AnnDriena_ said:
			
		

> That's excellent. It sounds like something I heard in a sermon once where our pastor said God didn't want a bunch of robots worshipping him because if he did he'd make better robots than us who keep turning against him.



LOL! I know that's right!


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## pebbles (Feb 26, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> that still doesn't make sense to me. You don't get to choose how you begin your life, yet you get to choose how you end it?  Unless of course God's will calls for you to do something spectacu lar...then you don't get a choice about that...but you do get to choose the rest of it?  I've never read that it is the God's will that we have a choice...where is that?
> 
> Is your destiny changeable?  If the Father already knows the beginning and the end...what can you change about it? And if you can't change it...where is the free will?



Yes. Your destiny is changeable in that you have the choice of what direction you will take and the decisions that you make. People either choose to believe and serve the Lord, or they choose to live apart from Him and do their own thing. If someone living a riotous life suddenly decides to stop and turn his live over to Jesus, he has just changed his destiny. And the reverse is true. We know that God is Omniscient, but that does not mean that He is forcing or manipulating us to choose one thing over another. We are making those choices for ourselves. And since we all have the ability to make our own choices, we are thus held accountable for our actions.

First understand that if a person is without true "Free Will," he could not be held responsible for his or her actions. Free will was first demonstrated with Adam. If Adam did not have the free will to sin against God, God would not have punished him for something beyond his control. That goes against the very nature of a loving God. Does it really make sense that God would force Adam to fall into sin then punish him for something he couldn't control in the first place? Of course not. As I've stated before, that would be manipulation. And God would not be the just God we know Him to be. You can't be punished for something you have no control over. The whole story of the bible is ordinary people making good and bad decisions of their own free will, the consequences involved, and God's mercy towards His people by sending the Savior. 

Could God have kept Adam from sinning against Him? Certainly He could have.  But then Adam would be a robot or a puppet. God wants us to choose Him of our own free will.

Does any of this mean that man's free will supersedes God's will? Absolutely not. No matter the choices we make, it is God's will that we _have_ a choice. You are either operating in God's perfect will or God's permissive will, but either way, His will is still sovereign over all. Yes, He knows what we're going to choose. No, He doesn't manipulate us, and yes, for those of us who sin yet choose to believe in Jesus Christ, we are given a means of redemption.

Hope that was a little bit more clear.


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## DelightfulFlame (Feb 26, 2005)

Where is it stated that it is God's will that we have a choice in the bible? I have posted scriptures that show otherwise...and have yet to see scripture about free will being God's will.


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## MomofThreeBoys (Feb 27, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> Where is it stated that it is God's will that we have a choice in the bible? I have posted scriptures that show otherwise...and have yet to see scripture about free will being God's will.



*Deuteronomy 30:19 (New International Version)*


19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live
*


Joshua 24:15*
   But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD ."

*http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=10&chapter=24&verse=12&version=31&context=verse*
*1 Chronicles 21:10*
   "Go and tell David, 'This is what the LORD says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.' "     

*Proverbs 1:29*
   Since they hated knowledge  and did not choose to fear the LORD ,     

*Proverbs 3:31*
   Do not envy a violent man  or choose any of his ways,

*Proverbs 8:10*
Choose my instruction instead of silver,  knowledge rather than choice gold,     

*Isaiah 7:15*
   He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right.    

*Isaiah 7:16*
   But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.    

*Isaiah 56:4*
   For this is what the LORD says:  "To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths,  who choose what pleases me  and hold fast to my covenant-     

*Acts 6:3*
  Brothers, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them


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## DelightfulFlame (Feb 27, 2005)

*But you cannot make those choices in your own strength, therefore you are not free.  From my Merriam Webster Collegiate dictionary, 10th edition:

free will n(13c) 1: voluntary choice or decision 2: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or divine intervention

*

Proverbs 20
24   Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Jeremiah 10 (KJV)
23   O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

1 Corinthians 12
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

1 Corinthians 4
7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

Psalm 47
1O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph. 
2For the LORD most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth. 
3He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet. 
4He shall choose our inheritance for us, the excellency of Jacob whom he loved. Selah. 

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 

* now we were chosen before the world began...but we have free will not to be chosen?*

John 15
16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you,

James4
13Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will *(man's know nothing will)* go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: 
14Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. 
15For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live,*(God's will)* and do this, or that. 
16But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil. 

*But I have free will, so I choose to live until I am 210 at least.* :alcoholic

1 Timothy 4
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 

Isaiah 46
10Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 
11Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

* How does God declare his will and we change it? He declared the end from the beginning...so everything that is happening now was declared long ago at the beginning.  I am able to change that?  I don't think so...*

Matthew 13
9Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. 
10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 
11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 

*And the person who doesn't know has the free will to find out these mysteries?  God I demand you to tell me these mysteries right now...according to my free will! *

Romans 9
11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 
12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is NOT OF HIM THAT WILLETH, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

*No God, I was born to do of my own free will...not yours!* 

Ephesians 1
11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

*Does this mean that God had a purpose for my dad being a deadbeat?  Or even for all of those folks who haven't/won't be "saved" before they die?* 

Romans 9 
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 

* That old pharoah needs to quit making excuses. He could have unhardened his heart if he wanted to! Your going down Pharoah...you must be held accountable! To hell you go! What? You acting a fool was God's will?  Whatever!!!!* 

Genesis 45
4And Joseph said unto his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, I am Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt. 
5Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.

*So what if God sent you brothers...man's will is stronger than God's will because that's the way God designed it in some scripture that I can't find right now...so you brothers still had a choice not to sell Joseph and not preserve life...cause God would have found somebody else...NOT*

John 19
10Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? 
11Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin. 

*the untold story: and Pilate said, "No Mr. Jesus, you are mistaken...I have free will."*

Jeremiah 13
23Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. 

* well Michael Jackson did it...he was part Ethiopian or some kin to those other Africans way back in his family tree I'm sure. further evidence of free will...*

Romans 8
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Acts 5
32And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. 

*at a crossroads here...you can't obey God without the Spirit...and you can't get the Spirit without obeying...hmm...where is the free will?*

Romans 2
4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

*No Mr. Romans jr., I came to God out of my own free will.

Besides...God doesn't want me to be a puppet...computer. I pattern my life just like Jesus and He had free will, didn't he?*

John 5
19Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 

30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. 

Mark 14
36And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

John 6
38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

John 4
34Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

John 8
28Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. 

John 12
49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 

John 14
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 

* Jesus sure didn't use His free will very much. *


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## pebbles (Feb 27, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> Where is it stated that it is God's will that we have a choice in the bible? I have posted scriptures that show otherwise...and have yet to see scripture about free will being God's will.


DelightfulFlame, did you happen to pay *any* attention to Natalied's post beneath your own? Do you not see that God says to *choose?* Believe me, God is not a man that He should lie! If He says you have a choice to make, then believe me, *you have a choice to make!!*


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## pebbles (Feb 27, 2005)

natalied said:
			
		

> *Deuteronomy 30:19 (New International Version)*
> 
> 
> 19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live
> ...



Wonderful!!!  GOD doesn't lie! If He says you have to choose, then you have to choose! He's not doing it for you!


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## pebbles (Feb 27, 2005)

DelightfulFlame, with all due respect, there is so much absurdity in your post, I will not spend much time addressing them all. Your will to live to 210...so your will is to try to defy the laws of nature, and you think that free will should allow that? Come on, now! Michael Jackson...??? I won't even touch that. It's ridiculous! 

Clearly your intention is not to try to gain an understanding, but instead to  try to bring people to your way of thinking. Your tone is sarcastic and argumentative, so I don't see the point in continuing this particular discussion with you. That's cool, though! If someone else needs me to elaborate, I'll do so, but you seem very set in your belief. That's fine. But I wonder why you keep bringing this topic up if you're determined to believe what you want? A few of us have tried to explain it to you but to no avail. Believe what you will. After all, you have the free will to choose to believe or not. 

If I had to think and believe what you believe about GOD, a) GOD would not be the loving and just GOD that I *KNOW* he is, and b) I wouldn't waste my time trying to live right. I'd be on the street smoking, having sex with whomever I choose, going to the clubs nightly, cursing and swearing and being just as nasty as I want to be, because none of it would make a difference. By your view, if I'm to be saved, I will be, regardless of how I live, and if I'm going to hell, I could try to live right but it wouldn't make a difference because I'm going to hell anyway. Further still, by your views, it's God's intention that people rape, kill, be depressed, strung out on drugs, kill their parents, fornicate, lie, steal, etc. *So, none of this has anything to do with the will of man to choose for himself, but everything to do with the Father who wills for us to sin against His own commandments?* That is just astounding... That really makes sense to you? Ok.

And none of the scripture you picked support your arguments. Not one! I don't have the time to go over them all, but let me hit on a few for the benefit _of others_ who may have some questions anyway.

*Proverbs 20
24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?*

Proverbs 20, *in it's entirety,* is about considering the consequences of your actions. You're made to ask, "what will happen afterwards if I do this?" Verse 24 is about leaning towards the understanding of God's wisdom for He knows what's best for you. He has a set, perfect path for you to walk in, but He allows you to choose the opposite direction, if that's what you want. Doing it your way never leads to the understanding that man *thinks* he has, but to chaos and separation from God. How do I know this? By reading the bible and seeing how time after time, man makes bad choices and when they repent, God restores them. 

*Psalm 47
1O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph.
2For the LORD most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth.
3He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet.
4He shall choose our inheritance for us, the excellency of Jacob whom he loved. Selah.* 

Thankfully, the LORD has *CHOSEN* an inheritance for us which is salvation through walking with and believing in Jesus Christ as The Risen Savior. Now it's up to us to *ACCEPT* that inheritance, and as we all know, many have *CHOSEN* to *ACCEPT* it, and many have *NOT CHOSEN* to do so! 

*John 15
16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you,*

This statement is the truest of them all. He has chosen us all, for it is the will of GOD that we should all be saved. That's why He sent Jesus to die for us! But many have *not chosen* Him in return! That's what this passage is saying. Anyone who picks up the bible and reads that passage, that message is for them. Yet how many have read it and turned away anyway? GOD does not want any to perish! So of those who have chosen Him, we are to "go and bear fruit-fruit that will last." Please, understand this!

Lastly, all of the quotes you have listed questioning that Jesus was able to use His free will are all negated because you forget that Jesus's will was in line with the will of the Father!! *He wanted to save us!* That is the power of His love for us!! Knowing what was coming, He had a natural fear and apprehension. Jesus was God made flesh. He was human and was able to understand the suffering that He would endure. That's why Jesus understands fear and suffering. He experienced it Himself. But notice that Jesus says to God, "not my will but THY will be done." That means, "Father, whatever you want me to do, I choose to accept your will over mine!" He made a choice to obey the Will of the Father!!!

I wish you could get this thing, because without this understanding, I don't see how you believe in the saving grace of Jesus' sacrifice for us. If He didn't do it willingly that means He didn't really want to save you. That minimizes His sacrifice on the cross. And His willingness to die for our sins is what makes what Jesus did on the cross the ultimate sacrifice. Being God, He could have said no, then where would we be? But He humbled Himself to the will of the Father to save me, and Lord, I'm so glad He did it!! 

It appears you believe that you don't have a choice to serve Him. You apparently feel you're doing it because you have to, and not because you want to. According to you, you don't have a choice. And if that's your belief and attitude, well. . .  That's a cruel god you serve. Thankfully, that's not the God I serve. I have a choice to accept Him or deny Him. 

At any rate, even if you never get it, I'm thankful that others understand it. And for those who might have been confused but were able to see and now understand the grace of our loving Father in giving us choices, all of this was worth it. God is not the author of confussion. His word is consistently consistent, and complimentary through similar passages in the bible.  Peace, sis. :Rose:

Edited for spelling.


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## DelightfulFlame (Feb 27, 2005)

Yes, I read Natalied's post...and began my post by addressing it. You speak about the laws of nature, yet free will defies the laws of nature...sometimes you think you have it...sometimes you don't. What is consistent about that?  I can't choose to live until 210, but I can choose everything else about my life...except for those times when God's will and my will bump into each other and He makes me do something...but every other time I'm free?  That really does not make sense to me.

You say that Jesus was in line with God's will. Show me where we are out of line with it...every last person/thing on this earth is here doing whatever they are because of God's will. I showed you scripture that stated that He works everthing...ALL...according to His will. 

As far as all of the bad things that people do...yes, God is responsible. He is not some punk, weak God with humans who were perfect and mutated into being imperfect. He is not some mad scientist...and we are experiments gone wrong. He is GOD...if He wanted us perfect...WE WOULD BE PERFECT.

If you can choose to do something other than what God's will plans for you to do...then that counts as works.  You can actually change the will of God.  You are your God.

You totally changed Jesus words...He never said He "chose" to do God's will. 

The God I serve is not cruel...in fact He's just the opposite!  For some reason He saw fit to birth me into this world on 6:35 am on March 16, 1978. He hasn't given me everything I wanted of my own free will, but He gave me everything I needed according to His will. It wasn't always pretty or pleasant...but He saw me through it. There were times when I was doing crazy stuff...didn't have a clue...didn't care...yet He saw fit to bring me through.  I have learned so much and am thankful that the things I have gone through...good and bad...have a purpose and aren't just "haphazord".

Even if you never get it...I'm thankful that God has shown me and others too. I post these scriptures because there may be someone else here that God is showing too. I'm thankful for all of you...even if we never agree...for God's will has a purpose for everything...even that which we don't like or agree with.

Ecclesiastes 3
1   To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2   A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3   A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4   A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5   A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6   A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7   A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8   A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.


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## pebbles (Feb 27, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> You say that Jesus was in line with God's will. Show me where we are out of line with it...every last person/thing on this earth is here doing whatever they are because of God's will. I showed you scripture that stated that He works everthing...ALL...according to His will.



Oh my goodness, did you read my previous post where I said:"Does any of this mean that man's free will supersedes God's will? Absolutely not. No matter the choices we make, it is God's will that we have a choice. You are either operating in God's perfect will or God's permissive will, but either way, His will is still sovereign over all." How do you interprit this to mean that I'm even suggesting our will goes above the will of God? 



			
				DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> You totally changed Jesus words...He never said He "chose" to do God's will.



What? Ok, this is my signal to end it. Believe what you will, DF. Peace!


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## Edie (Mar 2, 2005)

If you have  lost your religion, praise God!  Religion is man made.  Faith is God made.  Religion or religous practices such as baptist, catholic, pentacostal, etc. are things instituted by man on how he worships God.  All of these things are merely symbolic.  "For you are saved by Grace, through faith, and that not of yourselves.  It is the Gift of God."  Faith is what will restore you.  Faith is what redeemed you.  Work on growing your faith.  Spend time alone with God's word.  Praise Him when you are feeling low.  You will be surprised that by just praising Him, your spirit will be uplifted.  I have become quite a songwriter when praising God.  I just sing about all the things that He is, He has done, etc.  The songs may not have rhythmn and they may not have soul, but I know they are reaching His ears.  

Peace!


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## AnnDriena_ (Mar 2, 2005)

When God said choose life (Him) I take that as HIM Giving us a choice. 

And God wants the best for all of us if we didn't have free will I think he would make us ALL worship and accept him so that none of us would perish because that's what he wants for us. But of course not all of us have chosen life.

And just from studying the bible and learning about the mind and ways of the Lord I think he would have us all come to him and live the abundant life he wants for us. But that's not going to happen because a lot of us are going to perish and he doesn't want that for us but He gave us free will.  And it's not like our choices are out of his hands. He can make every knee bow but he chose to let us make the choice. So I don't think him giving us free will is making anything out of his control it's never out of his control but the horrible things we do to ourselves and each are never what he wants for us.


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