# Wine



## blazingthru (Aug 29, 2013)

*Wine*

Although not the normal drink of the day, intoxicating wines did exist in Bible times, and in every case they receive unfavorable reference. Deut. 32:23,24,33; Prov. 4:14-17; Hab. 2:5,15; Ps. 58:4; Hos. 7:5; Ps. 60:3; Isa. 5:22; 28:7,8; Jer. 25:15. 

It is especially important for us to be always strictly temperate and sober in these last days because Satan is working with greatly intensified deceptiveness and wrath to confuse our senses:

Babylon [corrupt organized religion] "*made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication*." Rev. 14:8; "The end of all things is at hand; be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer." 2 Pet. 4:7; "be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour." 1 Pet. 5:8; "Wherefore, gird up the loins of your mind, be sober and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ." 1 Pet. 1:13. 

What is God's view of alcohol consumption? "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." Prov. 20:1

How can we be sure that the wine Jesus used at the Passover (Lord's Supper) was non-alcoholic?  It was a strict law of God that at the time of the Passover all leaven or fermented articles to be removed from the house. Fermentation is a sign of decay and death. The wine used at the Passover was distinctly a symbol of Christ's blood, shed to establish the new covenant. He will drink of the same kind of new wine with His redeemed in the Kingdom of heaven where decomposition and fermentation will never occur. See Ex. 12:15; Matt. 26:17,26-29; Rev. 21:4. 

What is the effect of drinking alcoholic beverages? "Who has woe, who has sorrow, who has contentions, who has babbling, who has wounds without cause, who has redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine" "At last it bites like a serpent, and stings like an adder" (Prov. 23:29,30).

Why were kings prohibited the use of strong drink? "It is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink; lest they drink and forget the law and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted" (Prov. 31:4,5)

Why were priests not allowed to use intoxicating drink? "And the Lord spake unto Aaron, saying, Do not drink wine or strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, … that ye may put a difference between holy and unholy, and between clean and unclean" (Lev. 10:8-10, cf. Ezek. 44:21). 

What two titles does God give to His redeemed people? "Kings and priests." See 1 Pet. 2:6,9; Rev. 1:5,6. True Christians are spiritual kings and priests, washed in the blood of Christ and enlisted in His service as royal ambassadors. They have perpetual access by His Spirit to the heavenly sanctuary. 2 Cor. 5:18-20; Heb. 10: 19-23.

How did Daniel respond to the temptation to drink wine at the king's court in Babylon?  Dan. 1:8-20. He refused it, but drank water instead. In consequence he was blessed with superior health and mental ability.

What is one of the keys to success in being a victorious Christian? "Every man who strives for the mastery is temperate in all things" (1 Cor. 9:25).

What is the source of our power to be temperate? "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law" (Gal. 5:22,23). True temperance is defined as, "The moderate use of that which is beneficial and total abstinence from that which is harmful." 

Will alcoholics who continue drinking have a favorable destiny? "Be not deceived: … drunkards… shall not inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Cor. 6:9,10, cf. 1 Cor. 5:11; Gal. 5:19-21.. 

What kind of wine is acceptable and wholesome? "The new wine found in the cluster, destroy it not, … for a blessing is in it." "The pure blood of the grape" (Isa. 65:8; Deut 32:14). It is medicinal, non-alcoholic. 1 Tim. 5:23.

What source of inspiration does God want for us instead of fermented wine? "Be not drunk with wine wherein is excess, but be filled with the Holy Spirit" (Eph. 5:18, cf. Acts 2:1-18).

"Whether therefore you eat or drink, or whatsoever you do, do all to the glory of God" (1 Cor. 10:31).


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## blazingthru (Aug 29, 2013)

*Disobedience*

Obeying God is in our best interest. It's in the Bible, Deuteronomy 30:15-16, TLB. "Look, today I have set before you life and death, depending on whether you obey or disobey. I have commanded you today to love the Lord your God and to follow His paths and to keep His laws, so that you will live and become a great nation, and so that the Lord your God will bless you and the land you are about to possess." Dueteronomy 10:12,13, NIV says, "And now, O Israel, what does the Lord your God ask of you but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways, to love Him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to observe the Lord's commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good?"

What do law, grace, and obedience have to do with each other? It's in the Bible, Romans 5:20, TLB. "The Ten Commandments were given so that all could see the extent of their failure to obey God's laws. But the more we see our sinfulness, the more we see God's abounding grace forgiving us."

Obedience can keep us from disease. It's in the Bible, Exodus 15:26, TLB. "If you will listen to the voice of the Lord your God, and obey it, and do what is right, then I will not make you suffer the diseases I sent on the Egyptians, for I am the Lord who heals you."

Obedience is the key to a successful life. It's in the Bible, Joshua 1:8, TLB. "Constantly remind the people about these laws, and you yourself must think about them every day and every night so that you will be sure to obey all of them. For only then will you succeed."

We will be evaluated in terms of our obedience to God's commandments. It's in the Bible, Matthew 5:19, TLB. "And so if anyone breaks the least commandment, and teaches others to, he shall be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But those who teach God's laws and obey them shall be great in the Kingdom of Heaven."

Obedience is a result of loving God. It's in the Bible, John 14:15 and 23, TLB. "If you love Me, obey Me; …Because I will only reveal Myself to those who love Me and obey Me. The Father will love them too, and we will come to them and live with them."

*The Holy Spirit will only be given to those who obey the Lord*. It's in the Bible, Acts 5:32, NIV. "*We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him*."

Jesus obeyed His Father, as an example of how we should obey Him. It's in the Bible, Hebrews 5:8-9, TLB. "And even though Jesus was God's Son, He had to learn from experience what it was like to obey, when obeying meant suffering. It was after He had proved himself perfect in this experience that Jesus became the Giver of eternal salvation to all those who obey Him."

God advises us to obey the laws of the land. It's in the Bible, Romans 13:1-2, TLB. "Obey the government, for God is the one who has put it there. There is no government anywhere that God has not placed in power. So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow."

Sometimes obedience to God and His law may require disobedience of earthly powers. It's in the Bible, Acts 5:29, NIV. "We must obey God rather than men!"

Children are to obey and honor their parents. It's in the Bible, Ephesians 6:1-3, TLB. "Children obey your parents; this is the right thing to do because God has placed them in authority over you. Honor your father and mother. This is the first of God's Ten Commandments that ends with a promise. And this is the promise: that if you honor your father and mother, yours will be a long life, full of blessing."


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## Shimmie (Aug 29, 2013)

Very interesting topic and I don't believe that anyone would have any harsh objections while reading this.

I don't drink, but I know others who do and while I will not advocate or encourage it, I pray for them and let them bear their conscious with God.   

The one thing that concerns me is that I do not want to be responsible for an accident that one may have or cause to occur, because I gave them something to drink from my home or an event that I was hosting.   It's not worth a person's life or their soul.  I want to protect them.  :Rose:


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## JaneBond007 (Aug 29, 2013)

We drink wine every Sunday, even my very underage kids (real wine in the eucharist).  I drink stronger liquors from time to time, not very often.  More like social drinking.  Too much food is like too much alcohol - will hurt you.  The admonition is to avoid getting drunk or to harm yourself or others.  There's no need to pray for people who are in control of what they do (drinking) as though they sin against G-d.  They don't.  As far as the priests not being allowed to take wine or stronger drink, we have that "law" today in the church.  The wine to be consumed is Jesus himself, transubstantiated in the eucharist.  Avoid anything but water 1 hour before communion.  No one should enter the church in a drunken state, period.  That rule was a precursor, a glimpse into the future of the sacrifice.  The wine at the wedding at Cana was the establishment of the sacrament of marriage.  

This is one of those areas where people diverge at differing interpretations and draw conclusions  over the actual scriptures.  I hope I don't offend, but this is largely personal preference.  Note, I'm talking about consuming and not drunkenness, which is clearly prohibited.


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## blazingthru (Aug 30, 2013)

JaneBond007 said:


> We drink wine every Sunday, even my very underage kids (real wine in the eucharist).  I drink stronger liquors from time to time, not very often.  More like social drinking.  Too much food is like too much alcohol - will hurt you.  The admonition is to avoid getting drunk or to harm yourself or others.  There's no need to pray for people who are in control of what they do (drinking) as though they sin against G-d.  They don't.  As far as the priests not being allowed to take wine or stronger drink, we have that "law" today in the church.  The wine to be consumed is Jesus himself, transubstantiated in the eucharist.  Avoid anything but water 1 hour before communion.  No one should enter the church in a drunken state, period.  That rule was a precursor, a glimpse into the future of the sacrifice.  The wine at the wedding at Cana was the establishment of the sacrament of marriage.
> 
> This is one of those areas where people verge at differing interpretations and draw conclusions  over the actual scriptures.  I hope I don't offend, but this is largely personal preference.  Note, I'm talking about consuming and not drunkenness, which is clearly prohibited.



not offended at all. I use to be a social drinker but once I read the scriptures i gave it up.  Its no longer a part of my life. Especially when I sit back later and wonder if I said to much or gave something away I should not have, that was to much for me. It was an easy thing to do. I actually don't think its misinterpreted I think honesty that people are going to drink regardless. "There's nothing wrong with  a glass every now and then" who says that? the folks say that, Yet God say avoid it. who is right.  Oh and by the way, The word "abomination" in the Bible symbolizes lies (Proverbs 12:22). Babylon's wine, which contains false teachings, disorients and benumbs those who drink it and makes them spiritually drunk.


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## JaneBond007 (Aug 30, 2013)

Hm, I read the scriptures and I will still take a drink.  Yes, there are certainly many diff. types of symbolism in the bible  as well as many levels of meaning. Some do, some don't.  I personally do not want anyone to feel like s/he's a sinner for drinking wine.  If someone else thinks it's sinful, then s/he should not do it.  But that wouldn't apply to another person.


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## Shimmie (Aug 30, 2013)

What examples are we setting for our children (and other children) when drinking? 

Why does a person drink (alcohol)?  Especially when it is something that is highly addictive.  

I will not condemn a person who does drink.  I do not want to beat them over the head with scriptures condemning them.  

However, I cannot encourage drinking as a 'safe' choice for one to make.  It's not.  Especially when one 'defends' it without admitting the dangers of it. 

What are we teaching young children about alcohol?  Especially in this age when the use of substances are outrageous and only getting worse and the ones drinking and becoming alcoholics are younger than ever. 

Our children matter...


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## Belle Du Jour (Aug 30, 2013)

JaneBond007 said:


> Hm, I read the scriptures and I will still take a drink.  Yes, there are certainly many diff. types of symbolism in the bible  as well as many levels of meaning. Some do, some don't.  *I personally do not want anyone to feel like s/he's a sinner for drinking wine.  *If someone else thinks it's sinful, then s/he should not do it.  But that wouldn't apply to another person.





Drinking wine in and of itself is not a sin.

Drinking to excess is problematic.

I'm not a regular or even a social drinker.  But I enjoy a glass of white or sparkling wine every now and again.  I generally don't do mixed drinks or liquor.

Like Jesus said, it's not necessarily what goes into a person but what comes out that's the bigger problem.


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## Belle Du Jour (Aug 30, 2013)

Shimmie said:


> What examples are we setting for our children (and other children) when drinking?
> 
> Why does a person drink (alcohol)?  Especially when it is something that is highly addictive.
> 
> ...



Wine does not equal hard drugs and I wouldn't say it's addictive.  It's like anything that someone views as an artistic or cultural thing.  Having visited vineyards and caves even abroad, winemaking is an art.   I will not condemn someone who enjoys wine.  

Drinking as a past time or hobby is another story. erplexed  Unfortunately, some people use alcohol as a means of escape or with the intent of getting buzzed.  That would be considered sinful.  But I don't agree that having an appreciation for wine is sinful.


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## Galadriel (Aug 30, 2013)

Shimmie said:


> What examples are we setting for our children (and other children) when drinking?
> 
> Why does a person drink (alcohol)?  Especially when it is something that is highly addictive.



I think alcohol can be addictive to someone predisposed to alcoholism or who abuses alcohol. I drink wine or rum-and-coke at family Christmas parties or special occasions like that. I usually take one glass, and even that I don't finish. The only wine I keep in my house is the bottles DH and I save for our wedding anniversary every August .

I don't go to clubs/clubbing, I don't "party" with strangers. Most of the people I hang around with are family, extended family, and my two best friends from high school who are like sisters to me.



Shimmie said:


> I will not condemn a person who does drink.  I do not want to beat them over the head with scriptures condemning them.



I don't condemn anyone for drinking either. What I would condemn is alcohol abuse or drinking while driving, or getting drunk.



Shimmie said:


> However, I cannot encourage drinking as a 'safe' choice for one to make.  It's not.  Especially when one 'defends' it without admitting the dangers of it.



I agree that drinking can be a problem or a danger (as mentioned above with drunkenness, alcohol abuse, alcoholism), and I am completely against underage drinking as well as irresponsible drinking by adults. If I am at a get-together and know I will be driving, I will not drink at all. 

I married into a Latino family, where abuelito having a cold beer with dinner, or abuelita a small glass of red wine with her steak is quite normal. I do think that sometimes culture can play into how people view and treat alcohol. I know of some people who feel they can't have fun or socialize unless they're drinking, that drinking till you're drunk is okay, etc. and that is NOT cool in my book.


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## Shimmie (Aug 30, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> I think alcohol can be addictive to someone predisposed to alcoholism or who abuses alcohol. I drink wine or rum-and-coke at family Christmas parties or special occasions like that. I usually take one glass, and even that I don't finish. The only wine I keep in my house is the bottles DH and I save for our wedding anniversary every August .
> 
> I don't go to clubs/clubbing, I don't "party" with strangers. Most of the people I hang around with are family, extended family, and my two best friends from high school who are like sisters to me.
> 
> ...



You married 'Latino'... that's beautiful!   

Questions and it's only questions...    No 'shots' or shade here.  You're one of my dearest sisters here.  You, Lady Belle, Jane and Blazinthru our OP.     Each of you mean very much to me.   We share too much at heart, so this is not a 'hit and run' inquiry.   

Can you attend an event and choose not to drink?   

What is it about alcohol that makes it worth drinking or enjoyable?  

How does it make you feel when drinking?  Relaxed, tipsy, sleepy? Part of the occasion?  Part of the group? 

If the Church didn't allow it, would you still drink?  

My experience around those who drink is not always good to see.


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## ktykaty (Aug 31, 2013)

Shimmie said:


> Can you attend an event and choose not to drink?
> Yes. No problem. Not being abble not to drink where there's alcohol available is a sign of an alcohol addiction or a self control issue.
> 
> What is it about alcohol that makes it worth drinking or enjoyable?
> ...



Hello Shimmie,
I tried to answer your question as best as I could. Feel free to ask clarification if needed.


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## ktykaty (Aug 31, 2013)

Shimmie said:


> What examples are we setting for our children (and other children) when drinking?
> 
> Why does a person drink (alcohol)?  Especially when it is something that is highly addictive.
> 
> ...



what we (the Church) should be teaching about alcohol is temperance and self control. self control is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. we need him to make choices about what we eat and what we drink, and how much of it.

we should teach them to know their body and how it react to foods and drinks (alcoholic or not). they should know how much of a certain drink or food is too much. they should know in what condition they can or cannot eat certain food or drink certain beverage.

we must tell them the truth: alcohol is like sugar or salt, an abusive use of it is going to kill you. "It's the dose that makes the poison".

we must also teach them that the promise of the Lord is abundance of bread, wine and oil. the biblical symbolism of this three thing is really important for us christians, bread = the Body of Christ, wine = the Blood of Christ and oil = the Holy Spirit.

alcohol abuse and addiction is a disease but behind it there is also a spiritual problem. the devil trying to take one of the Lord's blessing (wine) and changing its purpose, its use. What the Lord create in a certain context and with a certain purpose (sex, wine, bread, marriage, oil,...) is being misappropriated and misused by the enemy.
our duty as children of God is to set the record straight no matter what.


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## blazingthru (Aug 31, 2013)

Shimmie said:


> You married 'Latino'... that's beautiful!
> 
> Questions and it's only questions...    No 'shots' or shade here.  You're one of my dearest sisters here.  You, Lady Belle, Jane and Blazinthru our OP.     Each of you mean very much to me.   We share too much at heart, so this is not a 'hit and run' inquiry.
> 
> ...




I actually do not attend any events that serve Alcohol. I did go to a wedding and there was no alcohol served but if you went through another door you can purchase what you want, I do not drink at all it is not tempting to me.  But the scripture rings out true, it is something to watching in the glass.  At times I missed that old feelings, but you know I was never comfortable in my skin after drinking it. Could never put my finger on why exactly. My family has a history of alcohol abuse, some just all fun, some abusive. My great aunts did not go ANYWHERE without their booze, for real. no need to go to the bar if your traveling with them, just go to their room and ask for whatever you want they got it. 

Alcohol is pleasurable, relaxing. But for me it makes you not able to make a quick decision.  You have to think a little harder then you would had you not taken the drink. I rather be clear and focused at all times.

My Church does not allow alcohol not even in stuff like extract, however, I follow God not my church. I don't even know if its a question of allow or not because once you go home you do what you want to do anyway. 

I think that the scriptures warn of us impeding danger, its our choice to follow it or go our own way. Most "Christian" feel that its okay to have a drink every now and then, yet God says do not even touch it because it will put you off guard and for some folks all they need is one drink, that's it.  
So somethings God has already warned us, but even if God didn't warn us or the church warned us, just looking at peoples lives can tell you alcohol in any form is dangerous to your health. 

HE wants us to be sober, well after one glass you can't be sober, you have already damaged some brain cells and your thinking is not at top level at all. 

Alcohol: The Bible Hall of Shame
The first reference to wine is found in Genesis when Noah, after the Flood, created the original fermented grape juice. "Then he drank of the wine and was drunk, and became uncovered in his tent" (Genesis 9:21). The sad record is that *Noah drank and stumbled around naked and shamefully exposed himself *to his sons. This first experiment with a new drug ended with a scathing curse falling on Noah's posterity.

Lot also drank, and he was therefore easily *seduced into having incestuous relations* with his daughters. "So they made their father drink wine that night. And the firstborn went in and lay with her father, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose" (Genesis 19:33). The offspring of this relationship became the nations of Moab and Amnon, the mortal enemies of God's people. *And there is no shortage of evidence today that alcohol often leads to sexual immorality, such as adultery, rape, and incest.*

Then there is the infamous experience when the children of Israel *drank alcohol, stripped themselves naked, and worshiped a golden calf *(Exodus 32:6, 25). This fermented "church social" ended in a horrible massacre.

Amnon, *another drinker and the son of David, raped his half-sister Tamar*. Because of this insidious act, *he lost his life at the hands of his enraged brother while intoxicated *(2 Samuel 13:28).

These are only a few examples. Truly, when one considers the biblical record of fermented drink, you have to wonder* why any genuine Christian would argue in its defense!*

Fermented Wine Brings Woe
The word "woe" is not used commonly today in the English vernacular. The word means deep distress or misery-as from grief and/or wretchedness. The Bible is found using the word in many different places. Not surprisingly, the use of alcohol is often the reason why the word is used!


"Woe to those who rise early in the morning, That they may follow intoxicating drink; Who continue until night, till wine inflames them!" (Isaiah 5:11).
"Who has woe? Who has sorrow? Who has contentions? Who hath complaints? Who has wounds without cause? Who has redness of eyes? Those who linger long at the wine, Those who go in search of mixed wine" (Proverbs 23:29-30).
"Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbor, Pressing him to your bottle, Even to make him drunk, That you may look on his nakedness!" (Habakkuk 2:15).
Does the Christian need any more condemnation of alcohol consumption than this?

A Matter of Health
"For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's" (1 Corinthians 6:20 KJV). From liver disease to ulcers to dementia, an almost endless list of health problems have been linked to the drinking of alcohol.

Alcohol (also grain alcohol) is a toxin that severely affects the central nervous system when ingested. Most people know that even moderate "social drinking" destroys brain cells.

If a person holds a small swig of whiskey in his or her mouth for about 10 minutes, various parts of the mouth's interior will blister. If you then blindfold them and have them taste various beverages-for instance, water, vinegar, or milk-you will find that they are incapable of distinguishing one from another. This experiment proves to a certainty that alcohol is not only a violent irritant, but also a narcotic.

I think even the strongest advocates of alcohol must honestly admit that its consumption certainly does not glorify God in their body; instead, it slowly destroys body and mind, which is a clear violation of the sixth commandment.

Just as cigarette smoking is suicide on the installment plan, so is the use of alcohol-which is a leading killer in the United States.

Also consider that there is an almost endless selection of other good things to drink that nourishes the body and mind. *So why would any Christians want to gamble like this-risking their health, witness, family, and eternal life to argue in defense of this destructive substance? *A very safe and simple rule for these issues is: When in doubt, leave it out!


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## JaneBond007 (Aug 31, 2013)

In a land of 300 lb. people all over the place, we're worried about social drinking?  Cigarettes are bad because the industry placed addictive nicotine in it.  Tobacco by itself is not addictive nor harmful until you abuse it.  But so are Doritos.  So is uncontrolled sex.  So is addictive exercise and starvation leading to anorexia.  We have an addictive society full of greed and gluttony.  5 bedroom houses can be gluttonous and so can jobs you struggled to get that pay above and beyond what you honestly need to just live healthily in this world.  Hoarding monies and jetsetting all across the globe is also gluttony...depending upon the person.  You live in such a world.  Again, it's how every individual sees something...but that s/he should not try and bend scripture around their point of view. G-d gives us a heads-up on everything and things He absolutely prohibits, He says directly.  The Decalogue is your guide for daily living.


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## Belle Du Jour (Aug 31, 2013)

Shimmie said:


> Can you attend an event and choose not to drink?
> 
> What is it about alcohol that makes it worth drinking or enjoyable?
> 
> ...



I definitely am not a regular drinker  So I attend stuff all the time and don't drink.  

I wouldn't say it's an enjoyable thing because I don't see it as an activity or a hobby.  It's more an appreciation for the wine making process and the end results of lots of effort and planning.

It doesn't make me feel any particular way because I'm not drinking to excess.

If it was considered a sin by the Church or if there was any actual Biblical basis, no, I wouldn't drink.

I agree--in college I've seen people who drink to excess.  I think there is a wide chasm between those who go out with the purpose of getting drunk and those who enjoy wine simply because they enjoy wine.


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## Belle Du Jour (Aug 31, 2013)

ktykaty said:


> *I would seriously side eye a church that would prohibit alcohol, for it isn't biblical.* If my church where to ask us to do an alcohol fast, that wouldn't be a problem for me. I would do it if I felt lead by the Holy Spirit to do it.



  Basically.  The verses are referring to drinking to excess or are used as a metaphor to make a point.  Wine in and of itself has no sin attached to it.  Just like women wearing pants.  But that's another thread.


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## Shimmie (Aug 31, 2013)

ktykaty said:


> what we (the Church) should be teaching about alcohol is temperance and self control. self control is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. we need him to make choices about what we eat and what we drink, and how much of it.
> 
> we should teach them to know their body and how it react to foods and drinks (alcoholic or not). they should know how much of a certain drink or food is too much. they should know in what condition they can or cannot eat certain food or drink certain beverage.
> 
> ...



  Bon Jour ktykaty    Merci' for your answers.  

While reading your post the 'bolded' stood out...  'spirit'.  

Just about every shop, store or market that sells alcohol has the name 'Spirit or Spirits' on it's banner or store sign.    I noticed a particular store that had 'spirits' written beneath almost every advertised name brand in their window display.  

This isn't random.    

"House of Spirits" a liquor store at Select Citywalk







*Welcome to Mission Wine & Spirits!*

http://www.missionliquor.com/Store/Qstore/Qstore.cgi

"Yankee Spirits"

http://www.yankeespirits.com/

This isn't random.   People do 'change' when they have a drink.  They come into a 'relaxed' state which has proven to be an open door for a different spirit to enter in and change one's actions, thoughts, behavior.   

Guys have long used alcohol to get a girl 'relaxed' to have sex with him.  She becomes inhibited, she succumbs to the spirit of sensuality.  And she's not necessarily drunk.   Just relaxed enough to allow that spirit to rule. 

Sitting here, I can think of many other reasons alcohol is called a spirit. 

I have to give great 'pause' to having a relaxed conscious to drinking.  It's not called a 'spirit' by random.   

Just something to think about...


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## JaneBond007 (Aug 31, 2013)

Oh Shimmie, "spirits" refers to "animated" or something that lifts up your being physically.  Warms you.  It doesn't refer to any connection with something evil.  
Thing is, it's preference, and solely that.  Anything on this good green earth can become a poison if a human allows it to be by misuse. 

 I'll be honest with you, when somebody says they will pray for discernment for me concerning the use of alcohol, I am insulted somewhat.  Why?  I don't need someone's prayers to force me to follow their own convictions on what is good for THEIR lives.  And I absolutely do know their concern is coming from a good place.  But it is an incorrect place when it attempts to make an individual do what another wants that person to do based upon themselves.  We use wine, in church.  It is one of the earth's most beautiful creations.  We offer blessings on wine and bread (catholic and Jewish) and G-d is the one who set that into motion.  There is no prohibition on drinking wine nor liquor and we are the universal church.  If people abuse it?  Yes, they do, as well as other things.  

blazingthru

I do value your opinion and the scriptures you presented.  It still will not change my decision to use alcohol.  To others who think my decision is wrong, let them know that they cannot manipulate the true discernment given by G-d.  Sometimes, we humans just do not know all there is to know.  To others who are fearful of drinking wine, liquor, dance or smoke cigarettes, do not drink it, smoke it nor go to clubs and dance.  You must do what your OWN conscience convicts you of.


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## Galadriel (Aug 31, 2013)

Shimmie said:


> You married 'Latino'... that's beautiful!



Thank you! DH and fam are just the most lovely people ever. They are the type of people that you would want to make your life-long friends .




Shimmie said:


> Questions and it's only questions...    No 'shots' or shade here.  You're one of my dearest sisters here.  You, Lady Belle, Jane and Blazinthru our OP.




Of course, no offense taken. Having alcohol isn't like having water or punch, and it should be treated with responsibility.




Shimmie said:


> Can you attend an event and choose not to drink?



Yes, and often I choose not to drink for various reasons (i.e., healthy eating/drinking regimen that excludes alcohol, more interested in drinking something else, pregnant/nursing, etc.). Right now, I'm just drinking water, tea, and coffee, because it's getting tougher to stay in shape 



Shimmie said:


> What is it about alcohol that makes it worth drinking or enjoyable?



I hate the taste of beer and so won't drink it. I enjoy wine for the taste, especially when paired with certain foods or desserts.

I don't drink for the "buzz" and I certainly wouldn't get drunk. I just see wine (or the occasional rum-and-coke) as just another drink option among many.



Shimmie said:


> How does it make you feel when drinking?  Relaxed, tipsy, sleepy?



I actually get relaxed/sleepy, which is why I usually drink only one glass and why I never do it if I am driving. 



Shimmie said:


> Part of the occasion?  Part of the group?



I'll drink at a family party/occasion or if I am dining at a restaurant with DH. Those are about the only venues you'll find me drinking .



Shimmie said:


> If the Church didn't allow it, would you still drink?



If drinking was prohibited as sinful, yes I would avoid it.

I currently avoid drunkenness and alcohol abuse, because these would be sinful and negligent behavior.



Shimmie said:


> My experience around those who drink is not always good to see.



I can see how that would affect your outlook on drinking, and depending on one's situation or environment, sometimes it is better to err on the side of caution. I have seen people be normal and responsible with wine/alcohol, and I've seen people be idiots with it. We've seen so many sad stories where a girl is attacked or goes missing after a night of drinking, or how a person who thought they could handle their liquor ends up in a car accident. I definitely see your concern.


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## Galadriel (Aug 31, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> Also consider that there is an almost endless selection of other good things to drink that nourishes the body and mind. *So why would any Christians want to gamble like this-risking their health, witness, family, and eternal life to argue in defense of this destructive substance? *A very safe and simple rule for these issues is: When in doubt, leave it out!



I respect other Christians who choose to completely abstain from alcohol. When I attended a Christian university as an undergrad, I agreed to abide by the school's no-drinking rule in the student contract. I can respect that. However, I think depicting any Christian who chooses to drink wine or beer (and I'm not talking about alcoholics or drunkards) as recklessly risking his health, family, and eternal salvation is drama worthy of the Pharisees.


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## JaneBond007 (Aug 31, 2013)

Shimmie said:


> *This isn't random.   People do 'change' when they have a drink.  They come into a 'relaxed' state which has proven to be an open door for a different spirit to enter in and change one's actions, thoughts, behavior.   *
> 
> 
> I have to give great 'pause' to having a relaxed conscious to drinking.  It's not called a 'spirit' by random.
> ...



I believe that, as believers, spirits of evil don't enter you.  People might be oppressed by outside evil but very few people on earth, whichever religion, are actually and certifiably possessed by demons or the devil.  Foreplay is probaby the no. one method of lowering one's inhibitions, leading them to sex, mindset combined.  Although people do commit crimes using drugs and alcohol, that still is not the same thing as someone taking a drink who is responsible and not using it to commit a crime anymore than a responsible person using a car opposed to someone who commits vehicular homicide.  

Someone I know thinks that any NSAID is a spirit.  She was taught this at her church and so, she advised me not to take anything like that.  I had mentioned a headache or so.  I don't remember the whole convo exactly, but something like that.  I was taken aback.  Actually, what she was doing was inadvertently practicing spiritism.  If you truly think about it...having fear of tea, coffee, alcohol, dancing...everything where you think an evil spirit might enter you.  It can go further into believing that trees have spirits and the shadows they cast - evil, so avoiding that at evening etc.  I've heard it all.  Life was not meant to live afraid of every single thing.  We are to be cautious.  Every creation on earth serves a purpose. I'm only using this as an example and not pointing to anyone here, but she just came to mind and I've waited for such a time as to ask questions about it.


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## JaneBond007 (Aug 31, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> Alcohol is pleasurable, relaxing. But for me it makes you not able to make a quick decision.  You have to think a little harder then you would had you not taken the drink. I rather be clear and focused at all times.
> 
> My Church does not allow alcohol not even in stuff like extract, !




Yes, it is pleasurable, just like a cold Sprite on a hot day in a tall glass with ice.  And a bag of Lays potato chips   Talk about addictive!  I have to pass those Lays up...  Well, if one is losing control, that's when one ought stop.  The scriptures refer to drunkenness.  Note how there are basically 3 differing opinions and 3 separate places we worship?  That's what I meant by personal preference and/or what your own church/conscience teaches.  People ought not do what they feel is wrong but that doesn't make it wrong for others unless G-d specifically prohibited it.

As to extracts, that means that you cannot use extract of almond and vanilla to make cookies and cakes?  Do you have to use the real vanilla bean?  Some of those are  even kept in alcohol.  Or do you use the dried ones?  If alcohol disperses via heat, you wouldn't have any part of it.  What about cough syrups and cold elixirs?  Aspirins and prescription pain relievers?  Is that Holiness or SSD?


@Blazinthru

I missed your OP opening sentence again...yes, it was the normal drink of biblical times because making pressed wine is very tedious in large quantities and they didn't have refrigeration to keep the fresh.  Fermentation was and is a way of preserving foods.  We see metaphors of yeast destroying the other flours but leaven is not sinful.  People were allowed leaven but there were times they had to use unleavened for religious purposes.  We have this today.


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## menina (Aug 31, 2013)

What about nonalcoholic wines?


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## blazingthru (Aug 31, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> I respect other Christians who choose to completely abstain from alcohol. When I attended a Christian university as an undergrad, I agreed to abide by the school's no-drinking rule in the student contract. I can respect that. However, I think depicting any Christian who chooses to drink wine or beer (and I'm not talking about alcoholics or drunkards) as recklessly risking his health, family, and eternal salvation is drama worthy of the Pharisees.



I would not agree with this at all, the fact is this you might be able to get away with one drink but the next person could get addicted to it. it starts with one drink.  So as Christians why would we, fully knowing the path the others have taken and its destruction, engage in it at all.

As for me and my house we serve the Lord, so for me when I read the dangers of drinking from the word that is it for me.  Since I choose to walk on the side that is going to keep me focus and on track. I will abstain, we all have free will to make our own choices, but fully knowing what the end results for so many, I don't see how a "christian" can drink calmly. But that is my opinion not an opinion from the word.


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## Shimmie (Aug 31, 2013)

JaneBond007 said:


> Yes, it is pleasurable, just like a cold Sprite on a hot day in a tall glass with ice.  And a bag of Lays potato chips   Talk about addictive!  I have to pass those Lays up...  Well, if one is losing control, that's when one ought stop.  The scriptures refer to drunkenness.  Note how there are basically 3 differing opinions and 3 separate places we worship?  That's what I meant by personal preference and/or what your own church/conscience teaches.  People ought not do what they feel is wrong but that doesn't make it wrong for others unless G-d specifically prohibited it.
> 
> *As to extracts, that means that you cannot use extract of almond and vanilla to make cookies and cakes?  Do you have to use the real vanilla bean?  Some of those are  even kept in alcohol.
> 
> ...



In cooking, alcohol evaporates.  The food doesn't absorb the alcohol.  

I don't take cold medications with alcohol.    Actually, I don't take medications for colds at all.  Rarely do I take pain relievers.  By keeping the body, less acidic and more alkaline, there's little need for any of that.    

As for those who do, it's not a social activity, they're taking medication temporarily until their symptoms subside.


----------



## Galadriel (Aug 31, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> I would not agree with this at, the fact is this you might be able to get away with one drink but the next person could get addicted to it. it starts with one drink.  So as Christians why would we fully knowing the path the others have taken and its destruction engage in it at all.



It's not a matter of "getting away" with anything. Drinking wine is not sinful or morally wrong. There are people who abuse alcohol and those who don't. The abuse is what's sinful.

It's like saying sex is sinful because so many people fornicate or practice sexual perversion, and therefore we should completely abstain from sex. Sex isn't the problem, it's the abuse of it.


----------



## Shimmie (Aug 31, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> Thank you! DH and fam are just the most lovely people ever. They are the type of people that you would want to make your life-long friends .
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Galadriel, as always your answers are 'classic', just like you are. 

Thank you for answering.   I have other questions as it does lie on my heart about Christians and drinking.    I hope you are here to share more answers.  

You and Hubby having a romantic dinner and a glass of wine... sounds 'Classic'.   

Here are two other things (outside of what you've shared) that I have on my heart.

New Christians who have lived it up, drinking, partying, more drinking.     If they think it's okay to continue drinking, how will they truly be delivered?

Happy Hour... Should Christians participate?  We are to be in this world but not of it.   We are to be 'separate' from the world.    To see Christians in the same arena, participating in the same activity,  where is our 'witness'.  

Again, there's no contention here.  These are things I question when it comes to drinking, even for non-Christians.   

Lately I've been viewing Tia and Tamera's reality show.    These girls' are professing Christians and on this show, they drink (and curse) way too much.  I've always liked them and still do, but I am very disappointed in their display on this show.   Where is their witness for Jesus?


----------



## blazingthru (Aug 31, 2013)

so that we can understand prophecy and the end times events that are going on now. Remember almost the entire world is deceived. the bible says over and over to be wise, 
but in proverbs 20: it says that Wine is a mocker Proverbs 20:1 (KJV 1900)
Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: And whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. It clearly says those who are deceived by it are not wise.  Yet God repeats over and over for us to be wise its very important to be wise so you can understand what is going on.  Now if there is something I really want to do, I will find a way to do it. But you can't have this attitude to the word of God. Its no longer God your following but yourself, and thereby the door is opened wide for you to be fooled.  Many are already blinded to what is going on right in front of their faces, for lack of wisdom.


----------



## blazingthru (Aug 31, 2013)

Oh I believe that it is a sin to drink wine.  God said to not even look at it.  Why would he say that, if he doesn't mind. Obviously he does mind. He warns us over and over that it is a danger. Also its a form of suicide by degrees. So is a myriad of other things. that we do and think is acceptable.  Any substance or unhealthful practice that damages the body or shortens one's life must be laid aside. Suicide by degrees is still suicide. This, of course, includes harmful drugs (such as tobacco in all of its forms) and the many drinks that contain a popular yet highly detrimental drug called caffeine. God says that He will destroy people who knowingly wreak havoc upon their body temples.

In saying, I gave up chocolate but I am struggling with it. Its not easy.


----------



## Shimmie (Sep 1, 2013)

Belle Du Jour said:


> I definitely am not a regular drinker  So I attend stuff all the time and don't drink.
> 
> I wouldn't say it's an enjoyable thing because I don't see it as an activity or a hobby.  It's more an appreciation for the wine making process and the end results of lots of effort and planning.
> 
> ...



Lady Belle....  I missed your post.       I'm sorry.

I just want you to know that you are still "Lady Belle", a lady of finesse and class and God's heart.   No matter what my concerns, feelings are regarding drinking, please do not ever forget that.   

No matter how hard I may 'hit the subject of drinking, be it now or some time later in a future post or thread, please do not ever forget the value that I place upon you, as a person, as a Christian, as my sister in Christ Jesus.   

Nothing discussed in this forum trumps the value that you, Galadriel, blazingthru, ktykaty, and JaneBond007 are to me.   Trust me, it's the subject of drinking and only that.  

Knowing that you drink, doesn't change my view of you as highly valued and respected.   Knowing how strongly blazingthru feels against drinking doesn't change the value that I have for her.     

I just 'question' alcohol and see it as an 'enemy' rather than a safe harbor.   

Sister to Sister.... May I just speak my heart on this?

I don't like alcohol.   I don't like what I've seen it do to people.  There is indeed a 'spirit' behind it.   You see the changes within minutes after one takes a drink and then it increases in a difference of behavior. 

I'm taking 'Wine' out of the picture for now.  I'm learning that more and more Christian friends of mine (and family) drink wine.  I simply don't encourage it.  And this is where I'm leaving wine.  

It doesn't sit well with me to see the following:

Christians taking shots (let alone, anyone for that matter).  Don Julio is not Godly. 

Christians and hard liquor.  It changes their character drastically. 

Christians drinking beer.  Just being around the smell of beer makes me nauseous. 

I'm a naturalist and a Christian, and I'm learning to guard what goes into my body, but even more my 'witness' as a Christian when it comes to drinking.   

Thank you for letting me share this.   

To each of you...


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## dicapr (Sep 1, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> Oh I believe that it is a sin to drink wine.  God said to not even look at it.  Why would he say that, if he doesn't mind. Obviously he does mind. He warns us over and over that it is a danger. Also its a form of suicide by degrees. So is a myriad of other things. that we do and think is acceptable.  Any substance or unhealthful practice that damages the body or shortens one's life must be laid aside. Suicide by degrees is still suicide. This, of course, includes harmful drugs (such as tobacco in all of its forms) and the many drinks that contain a popular yet highly detrimental drug called caffeine. God says that He will destroy people who knowingly wreak havoc upon their body temples.
> 
> In saying, I gave up chocolate but I am struggling with it. Its not easy.



You don't need to give up chocolate!  The amount of caffeine contained in chocolate is negligible. You would need to literally eat a truckload of candy to equal a cup of coffee. You are SDA?  If you would like to pm me and discuss the health message in a more private setting that would be great. SDA born and raised but I am much more liberal on the caffeine and alcohol message after doing my own research. The SDA church I attend now is also more liberal with the health message . It seems the health message you adhere to is the one that was taught in my youth.


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## blazingthru (Sep 1, 2013)

dicapr said:


> You don't need to give up chocolate!  The amount of caffeine contained in chocolate is negligible. You would need to literally eat a truckload of candy to equal a cup of coffee. You are SDA?  If you would like to pm me and discuss the health message in a more private setting that would be great. SDA born and raised but I am much more liberal on the caffeine and alcohol message after doing my own research. The SDA church I attend now is also more liberal with the health message . It seems the health message you adhere to is the one that was taught in my youth.



Yes I am SDA, but my church doesn't practice this, My church is more liberal as well, there is chocolate in the church, not often but there nonetheless, I have been over some members house where some serve beer. So I know its our own personal walk and I was listening to a message and pastor Byron Spears spoke against chocolate and so I took note of it and decided to do the research, he doesn't focus on the caffeine he focuses on the theobromine. 

The first signs of theobromine poisoning are nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, and increased urination. These can progress to cardiac arrhythmias, epileptic seizures, internal bleeding, heart attacks, and eventually death.

Chocolate is believed to cause heartburn because of one of its constituents, theobromine, relaxes the oesophageal sphincter muscle, hence permitting stomach acidic contents to enter into the oesophagus.

My last child did a number on my body. I have Gerds, and a Hiatial hernia and many other stomach issues. So when I consume chocolate it makes me sick, but its not often enough for me to avoid. Well what I mean to say is if I eat a brownie and nothing else I am good but If I eat another piece and have a hot drink or any drink later, I get sick. Or even that one piece with nothing on occasions I'll get the runs (sorry to much info)  I never know what reaction I am going to get.  So it was hard for me to pinpoint what made me sick.  

Anyway, After looking up Theobromine, I decided it was not healthy to consume and to just leave it alone. 

Also the more I study the more I agree with some of the older teachings but its a struggle. Because Spears points out the reason with scripture so its hard to reason with what he says compared to the scripture. I personally don't feel I can argue safely against it since, I chose to be Scripture and Scripture only.  This is my walk. I been ill for a long time and slowly getting better, by eliminating certain foods from my diet i can see a healing where for years there was none.


----------



## blazingthru (Sep 1, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> It's not a matter of "getting away" with anything. Drinking wine is not sinful or morally wrong. There are people who abuse alcohol and those who don't. The abuse is what's sinful.
> 
> It's like saying sex is sinful because so many people fornicate or practice sexual perversion, and therefore we should completely abstain from sex. Sex isn't the problem, it's the abuse of it.



Well, How can you avoid abusing Alcohol?  Some folks as I said can have a drink and not form any attachment at all.  Some folks that one drink will cause them to spiral out of control. 

Cocaine, I have personal friends, three who tried it one time and or now dependent on services from the state and other avenues because the chemical mixture created an imbalance in their lives, they will never be the same again.   Just once, they weren't even addicted to it. it only took one time. isn't that what  they say about Crack just once and your hooked. well I really don't know. 

So forgive me but I can't remember where this scripture is but Paul says he would never eat meat again. if it causes someone else to stumble, (I am paraphrasing).  As Christians, that should be our motto, Drinking wine, might not have an affect on you but others new Christian may find that  horrifying and turn from God. How can you then go on from there.  Most folks think its about them, but its not. Someone is always watching to see if you live the life you claim and so we are to be a light to this dark world.  I am not perfect by no means, I am learning and growing in Christ as well. I like Wine glasses on the table, they are filled with Cider of course,  but I like the look of it and that might be a problem for someone else looking in on our celebratory meals. Since its only a few times a year I have them on the table.  I have been considering that. 

Oh and this can never compare to sex.  Sex is for marriage period. The marriage bed will be judged as well.  Anything else is outright sin.


----------



## dicapr (Sep 1, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> Yes I am SDA, but my church doesn't practice this, My church is more liberal as well, there is chocolate in the church, not often but there nonetheless, I have been over some members house where some serve beer. So I know its our own personal walk and I was listening to a message and pastor Byron Spears spoke against chocolate and so I took note of it and decided to do the research, he doesn't focus on the caffeine he focuses on the theobromine.
> 
> The first signs of theobromine poisoning are nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, and increased urination. These can progress to cardiac arrhythmias, epileptic seizures, internal bleeding, heart attacks, and eventually death.
> 
> ...



Ok. So this is from your own research and not necessarily in line with current SDA teachings. I can understand having to do what is right by your body and health. Everyone is different. For me, they would have to pry chocolate out of my cold dead hands!  I love the stuff.


----------



## Galadriel (Sep 1, 2013)

Shimmie said:


> @Galadriel, as always your answers are 'classic', just like you are.
> 
> Thank you for answering.   I have other questions as it does lie on my heart about Christians and drinking.    I hope you are here to share more answers.
> 
> You and Hubby having a romantic dinner and a glass of wine... sounds 'Classic'.



Thanks, Shimmie 



Shimmie said:


> Here are two other things (outside of what you've shared) that I have on my heart.
> 
> New Christians who have lived it up, drinking, partying, more drinking.     If they think it's okay to continue drinking, how will they truly be delivered?



I think the key thing such a person should ask themselves is: "How have I been treating alcohol and behaving with it in the past that has caused me to stumble?" "How can I avoid this?" For some, the answer will be to completely abstain; for others, it would be to only have a drink at a family Christmas party as opposed to guzzling down drinks at a frat party. Environment, behavior, and knowing and respecting your personal limits play important factors. 

If I had abused alcohol in the past or have gotten drunk at parties, my approach to whether or not (or how often) I drink would be adjusted accordingly. Since I have never suffered from this issue, and I only drink on certain occasions, my approach is different from someone who used to get wasted at college dorm parties.



Shimmie said:


> Happy Hour... Should Christians participate?  We are to be in this world but not of it.   We are to be 'separate' from the world.    To see Christians in the same arena, participating in the same activity,  where is our 'witness'.



It depends. I would take into consideration the people present and the environment and behavior that is going on. 

Remember, Jesus drank wine, and He turned water into wine at a wedding (His first recorded miracle in the Gospels, if I'm not mistaken). Drinking wine isn't evil, but abusing it or acting recklessly with it is what's bad. If a person has a problem with alcoholism or knows he can't be responsible with drinking, then I would agree it's a good choice to abstain . Even a person who doesn't have a problem in this arena, if he's in an environment that is just crazy w/ people drinking and getting drunk (like a frat party, etc.), I think it would be a good idea to skip drinking in that environment altogether. As JaneBond007 said, we need to use common sense and the discernment given to us.


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## JaneBond007 (Sep 1, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> I would not agree with this at all, the fact is this you might be able to get away with one drink but the next person could get addicted to it. it starts with one drink.  So as Christians why would we, fully knowing the path the others have taken and its destruction, engage in it at all.
> 
> *As for me and my house we serve the Lord,* so for me when I read the dangers of drinking from the word that is it for me.  Since I choose to walk on the side that is going to keep me focus and on track. I will abstain, we all have free will to make our own choices, but fully knowing what the end results for so many, I don't see how a "christian" can drink calmly. But that is my opinion not an opinion from the word.




This is where I take offense.  There are scriptures demonstrating that Jesus drank wine....WINE, not grapejuice.  He encouraged others to drink WINE.  Now, as has clearly been displayed, those scriptures you posted and even agreed with are speaking on drunkenness.  That is not equated with drinking wine, it's equated with drinking too much wine to become intoxicated.  

People should say, "oh, my understanding is XYZ and what about ABC scriptures?  Because my church encourages MNO" and never these pot shots of "well, I follow the L-rd and you don't."  Why is that???  You know G-d and no one else does?  Granted, some christians hate liquor, wine, dancing and cigarettes.  That's fine.  But when you cross the line to tell another person they are g-dless because they don't view it the way you do...uh, well.


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## JaneBond007 (Sep 1, 2013)

Shimmie said:


> Sister to Sister.... May I just speak my heart on this?
> 
> I don't like alcohol.   I don't like what I've seen it do to people.  *There is indeed a 'spirit' behind it.   You see the changes within minutes after one takes a drink and then it increases in a difference of behavior. *




Eh, nah.  No change unless one has consumed a lot.  And even if someone is more relaxed, that doesn't constitute intoxication/drunkenness.  You have a mind against it.  I don't.  There are no demons in me, sorry.


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## JaneBond007 (Sep 1, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> So forgive me but I can't remember where this scripture is but Paul says he would never eat meat again. if it causes someone else to stumble, (I am paraphrasing).  As Christians, that should be our motto, Drinking wine, might not have an affect on you but others new Christian may find that  horrifying and turn from God. How can you then go on from there.  Most folks think its about them, but its not. *Someone is always watching to see if you live the life you claim *and so we are to be a light to this dark world.  I am not perfect by no means, I am learning and growing in Christ as well. I like *Wine glasses on the table, they are filled with Cider of course,  but I like the look of it* and that might be a problem for someone else looking in on our celebratory meals. Since its only a few times a year I have them on the table.  I have been considering that.
> 
> *Oh and this can never compare to sex.*  Sex is for marriage period. The marriage bed will be judged as well.  Anything else is outright sin.



I'm so sorry I've written 3x in a row, but I back-edit enough on these postings.  Well, @blazingthru, never compare to sex, but what about food? Or spending?  The list continues.  You like the look of wine glasses?  But why give the appearance of "sin?"  I decided long ago (and this is just me, folks) that I didn't give a rat's beehaynd about what other people thought of me regarding religious conviction.  It makes for a happier and more peaceful me.    I'm not discounting scripture, but there is a level where you turn off individually or you succumb to irrational fears about everything, ya know?  I figure, I'm not their redeemer at all.  There's a big diff. between someone who is totally anti-G-d in their living and people who diff. from you individually, denominationally or exhibit human weakness, as though none others do.    People all up in your business rather than their own are the weakest, imho.  They're so busy following you around, looking into whatever you do, say, think you think, they largely overlook their nasty dispositions and a whole host of other nasty habits.  Hypocrites of plank vs. splinter.

Now, I do look at christians a lot...and in this part of the discussion, I am looking at "them" from outside but there is a reason for that.  I judge whole groups for the biggies...like murder, prejudice, whole "christian" countries turning a back on rights, ya know, the bigger infractions.  But if somebody is going to judge me on a drink or even crossing the line and getting a bit tipsy, or at my having worn something too short, or having the wrong attitude about something etc., you know what?  Kick, rocks x10 for them.  My relationship with G-d is much bigger than worrying about that and is PERSONAL.    It's called "hypocrite."  But there is a definite limit to calling someone on being a true hypocrite.  Our witness is important but I'm not going to be a religious slave to anybody.   You have to live a freer life, imho.  You cannot sweat every little thing.  Life was meant to be enjoyed rather than walking on eggshells all day long.


----------



## Shimmie (Sep 1, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> Thanks, Shimmie
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks Galadriel...  All the best to you Hubby and family.  

Thanks blazingthru for your thread.   It gave me an opportunity to share my heart and to receive some wonderful feedback.    And all without contention, which was never my intent with this important topic.   All the best to you and your precious family.  

Lady Belle...  you too, Angel  

Jane Bond, to you as well and your precious children.  

and to dicapr, you and your loved ones as well.  It was really nice for you come in and support Blazingthru, to encourage her with the faith that you both share.    

And to menina ...  you too, Angel      You shared a good question regarding the non-al wines, etc.     I'm in love with Perrier'


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## dicapr (Sep 1, 2013)

JaneBond007 said:


> This is where I take offense.  There are scriptures demonstrating that Jesus drank wine....WINE, not grapejuice.  He encouraged others to drink WINE.  Now, as has clearly been displayed, those scriptures you posted and even agreed with are speaking on drunkenness.  That is not equated with drinking wine, it's equated with drinking too much wine to become intoxicated.
> 
> People should say, "oh, my understanding is XYZ and what about ABC scriptures?  Because my church encourages MNO" and never these pot shots of "well, I follow the L-rd and you don't."  Why is that???  You know G-d and no one else does?  Granted, some christians hate liquor, wine, dancing and cigarettes.  That's fine.  But when you cross the line to tell another person they are g-dless because they don't view it the way you do...uh, well.



I completely agree with you. That has always been my issue with how some choose to express their convictions. Just because you have what you believe to be a deeper understanding of God's word doesn't mean that someone who doesn't agree with your conviction is lacking in their relationship with the Father.  I'm sure that our obedience to what God has revealed to us is the key, not that we all adhere to each and every Christian's personal convictions.


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## menina (Sep 1, 2013)

What exact scripture says Jesus drank wine?


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## Shimmie (Sep 1, 2013)

menina said:


> What exact scripture says Jesus drank wine?



menina... Here are the two that many indicate that Jesus drank wine. 

Luke 7:33-34

33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.

34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.

and 

Matthew 26:26-29

New International Version (NIV)

26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”

27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the[a] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

********

In Bible College, we were also taught to consider one of the reasons for drinking wine during that time was also due to the poor water conditions.


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## JaneBond007 (Sep 1, 2013)

dicapr said:


> I completely agree with you. That has always been my issue with how some choose to express their convictions. Just because you have what you believe to be a deeper understanding of God's word doesn't mean that someone who doesn't agree with your conviction is lacking in their relationship with the Father.  I'm sure that our obedience to what *God has revealed to us is the key*, not that we all adhere to each and every Christian's personal convictions.




Yes, to Shimmie 's post on Matthew.  It is communion and the blessing is/was made over wine.


dicapr
And that is very important to us catholics because we do not operate by personal revelation of scripture but that which is communal, handed down by the Magisterium.  If someone has a personal revelation, they should state it as such amongst us.  Individuals might not agree with something but we all have the same teaching.


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## Belle Du Jour (Sep 1, 2013)

Also, when Jesus was on the cross, he said "I thirst" and wine on a sponge was pressed to His lips.  (Although I have read that He wasn't referring to a physical thirst but rather a thirst for us, for us to return His love )


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## JaneBond007 (Sep 1, 2013)

Belle Du Jour  Follow on over to the RCC...I have an article to post.  I actually know the man and he's a brilliant scholar.  That 4th cup of wine is put into perspective.


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## Belle Du Jour (Sep 1, 2013)

Shimmie said:


> Knowing that you drink, doesn't change my view of you as highly valued and respected.   Knowing how strongly blazingthru feels against drinking doesn't change the value that I have for her.
> 
> I just 'question' alcohol and see it as an 'enemy' rather than a safe harbor.
> 
> ...



I definitely hear you but I can only speak for myself: I've never been drunk or hung over so one drink doesn't change my behavior.  I don't do shots or drink hard liquor.  I don't like beer either


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## Shimmie (Sep 1, 2013)

Belle Du Jour said:


> I definitely hear you but I can only speak for myself: I've never been drunk or hung over so one drink doesn't change my behavior.  I don't do shots or drink hard liquor.  I don't like beer either



Thanks Lady Belle...


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## blazingthru (Sep 2, 2013)

JaneBond007 said:


> This is where I take offense.  There are scriptures demonstrating that Jesus drank wine....WINE, not grapejuice.  He encouraged others to drink WINE.  Now, as has clearly been displayed, those scriptures you posted and even agreed with are speaking on drunkenness.  That is not equated with drinking wine, it's equated with drinking too much wine to become intoxicated.
> 
> People should say, "oh, my understanding is XYZ and what about ABC scriptures?  Because my church encourages MNO" and never these pot shots of "well, I follow the L-rd and you don't."  Why is that???  You know G-d and no one else does?  Granted, some christians hate liquor, wine, dancing and cigarettes.  That's fine.  But when you cross the line to tell another person they are g-dless because they don't view it the way you do...uh, well.



There are many who do what they want to and make every excuse under the sun to do it.  I am the exact same way, but its a thought I wrestle with, then I let it go because I have decided that I will follow the Bible and not pick and chose what I will take out of it or leave in it.  If you feel that I was saying your Godless, well I don't know what to say. Your faith practices drinking wine, you do that in your services.  If I was you, I would be thinking about it. Calling it into question.  Does God really agree with this. (I went to Mass and I raised my girls in catholic school) This is not to assault or offend you, *this is what I did.* When I walked into an SDA Church I wanted to know everything.  Why they did what they did.  I needed to know the truth of it all and if I didn't agree with it. I didn't do it. For instance, most churches have an altar, SDA churches do not. but they do call everyone up to the front they do not say Altar but in my mind its the same thing. I do not like that. I can't find a bible reason for us to do it. Because it appears as if you get extra attention because you go to the altar when you do not. But I learned this because I searched for an answer and then I sent a emails to a bible scholar to show me where I can find the real answers that I was missing and he confirmed what I already knew.  

I am not trying to offend anyone but people are going to get offended regardless honestly there is nothing that can be done about that.  Jesus did not drink fermented Wine, no matter how much folks want to believe he did, so they can drink it, he never did. Not ever. Because* Jesus is the word made flesh,* why would he tell us to avoid it and then he drink it,  that is false.  So many folks accept the false teachings of Jesus without question, yet you want to call him your friend, really.  The bible tells the whole story. Jesus was lied on and betrayed and falsely accused. Period.  He is not guilty of any of those things he was accused of.  We know this because if he was then there is no hope for us. He would not have rose from the dead and ascended to heaven and plead to God for us.  Because he would have failed his mission. He said it is finished, he has completed everything that the ones he had sent failed.   There is One God, One Faith, and One Baptism. So we know that there are many, many faiths out there.  Me personally, I want to follow the scriptures completely because it says one faith. The bible is our only standard, and we should all be on the same page, but as Christians we are not and the main reason why is folks want to do it their own way.  Doesn't matter if this is what your churches teaches or not. The church is full of sinners and saints together.  Can't follow them we have to follow Christ and thereby knowing and believing what the bible says is true.


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## Belle Du Jour (Sep 2, 2013)

And let's not forget Melchizidek, the priest and king of Salem who prefigured Christ way back in Genesis, presented a sacrifice of bread and wine.

Gen 14:18-20
18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; now he was a priest of God Most High. 19 He blessed him and said,
“Blessed be Abram of God Most High,
Possessor of heaven and earth;
20 And blessed be God Most High,
Who has delivered your enemies into your hand.”
He gave him a tenth of all.

Now, can anyone prove to me this was non-fermented wine?


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## blazingthru (Sep 2, 2013)

JaneBond007 said:


> I'm so sorry I've written 3x in a row, but I back-edit enough on these postings.  Well, @blazingthru, never compare to sex, but what about food? Or spending?  The list continues.  You like the look of wine glasses?  But why give the appearance of "sin?"  I decided long ago (and this is just me, folks) that I didn't give a rat's beehaynd about what other people thought of me regarding religious conviction.  It makes for a happier and more peaceful me.    I'm not discounting scripture, but there is a level where you turn off individually or you succumb to irrational fears about everything, ya know?  I figure, I'm not their redeemer at all.  There's a big diff. between someone who is totally anti-G-d in their living and people who diff. from you individually, denominationally or exhibit human weakness, as though none others do.    People all up in your business rather than their own are the weakest, imho.  They're so busy following you around, looking into whatever you do, say, think you think, they largely overlook their nasty dispositions and a whole host of other nasty habits.  Hypocrites of plank vs. splinter.
> 
> Now, I do look at christians a lot...and in this part of the discussion, I am looking at "them" from outside but there is a reason for that.  I judge whole groups for the biggies...like murder, prejudice, whole "christian" countries turning a back on rights, ya know, the bigger infractions.  But if somebody is going to judge me on a drink or even crossing the line and getting a bit tipsy, or at my having worn something too short, or having the wrong attitude about something etc., you know what?  Kick, rocks x10 for them.  My relationship with G-d is much bigger than worrying about that and is PERSONAL.    It's called "hypocrite."  But there is a definite limit to calling someone on being a true hypocrite.  Our witness is important but I'm not going to be a religious slave to anybody.   You have to live a freer life, imho.  You cannot sweat every little thing.  Life was meant to be enjoyed rather than walking on eggshells all day long.



Is a wine glass sin. The shape of the glass is it sinful? When I go out to breakfast my family and I received OJ in a wine glass. See i was looking at my table one day and I was thinking I wonder what folks would think if they saw my table set up this way with the glasses filled with Grape Juice or Cider. Does it give the appearance of Sin? This was my question.  oh and I do care what others think. I am suppose to be a light that is my goal to be a light and to walk in what I believe and thereby creating a desire for others to want to walk in that light.


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## blazingthru (Sep 2, 2013)

Belle Du Jour said:


> And let's not forget Melchizidek, the priest and king of Salem who prefigured Christ way back in Genesis, presented a sacrifice of bread and wine.
> 
> Gen 14:18-20
> 18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; now he was a priest of God Most High. 19 He blessed him and said,
> ...



The Priest did not drink wine or strong drink. Melchizedek was a type of Christ he had no real beginning and no real end, But he was to remain a priest forever. In knowing that he would remain a priest forever, we know that he was obedient and never went against the teachings of God and like Samson and others, God spoke directly to him his Laws. 

*Leviticus 10:9-11*
King James Version (KJV)
9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:

10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;

11 And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the Lord hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.


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## Nice & Wavy (Sep 2, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> There are many who do what they want to and make every excuse under the sun to do it.  I am the exact same way, but its a thought I wrestle with, then I let it go because I have decided that I will follow the Bible and not pick and chose what I will take out of it or leave in it.  If you feel that I was saying your Godless, well I don't know what to say. Your faith practices drinking wine, you do that in your services.  If I was you, I would be thinking about it. Calling it into question.  Does God really agree with this. (I went to Mass and I raised my girls in catholic school) This is not to assault or offend you, *this is what I did.* When I walked into an SDA Church I wanted to know everything.  Why they did what they did.  I needed to know the truth of it all and if I didn't agree with it. I didn't do it. For instance, most churches have an altar, SDA churches do not. but they do call everyone up to the front they do not say Altar but in my mind its the same thing. I do not like that. I can't find a bible reason for us to do it. Because it appears as if you get extra attention because you go to the altar when you do not. But I learned this because I searched for an answer and then I sent a emails to a bible scholar to show me where I can find the real answers that I was missing and he confirmed what I already knew.
> 
> I am not trying to offend anyone but people are going to get offended regardless honestly there is nothing that can be done about that.  Jesus did not drink fermented Wine, no matter how much folks want to believe he did, so they can drink it, he never did. Not ever. BecauseJesus is the word made flesh, why would he tell us to avoid it and then he drink it,  that is false.  *So many folks accept the false teachings of Jesus without question, yet you want to call him your friend, really.*  The bible tells the whole story. Jesus was lied on and betrayed and falsely accused. Period.  He is not guilty of any of those things he was accused of.  We know this because if he was then there is no hope for us. He would not have rose from the dead and ascended to heaven and plead to God for us.  Because he would have failed his mission. He said it is finished, he has completed everything that the ones he had sent failed.   There is One God, One Faith, and One Baptism. So we know that there are many, many faiths out there.  Me personally, I want to follow the scriptures completely because it says one faith. *The bible is our only standard, and we should all be on the same page, but as Christians we are not and the main reason why is folks want to do it their own way*.  Doesn't matter if this is what your churches teaches or not. The church is full of sinners and saints together.  Can't follow them we have to follow Christ and thereby knowing and believing what the bible says is true.


All I have to say is that the judging people in this post and your words does not give life to the reader.  A word to the wise: When you are giving a teaching, you can't do it and slam people in the process.  It's a nice/nasty that is so prevalent in this forum.  That "Telling the truth in love" is getting old...

Just sayin....

I'm not responding back, just giving my opinion from what I am reading.


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## dicapr (Sep 2, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> There are many who do what they want to and make every excuse under the sun to do it. I am the exact same way, but its a thought I wrestle with, then I let it go because I have decided that I will follow the Bible and not pick and chose what I will take out of it or leave in it. If you feel that I was saying your Godless, well I don't know what to say. Your faith practices drinking wine, you do that in your services. If I was you, I would be thinking about it. Calling it into question. Does God really agree with this. (I went to Mass and I raised my girls in catholic school) This is not to assault or offend you, *this is what I did.* When I walked into an SDA Church I wanted to know everything. Why they did what they did. I needed to know the truth of it all and if I didn't agree with it. I didn't do it.* For instance, most churches have an altar, SDA churches do not. but they do call everyone up to the front they do not say Altar but in my mind its the same thing. I do not like that. I can't find a bible reason for us to do it. Because it appears as if you get extra attention because you go to the altar when you do not. But I learned this because I searched for an answer and then I sent a emails to a bible scholar to show me where I can find the real answers that I was missing and he confirmed what I already knew. *
> 
> I am not trying to offend anyone but people are going to get offended regardless honestly there is nothing that can be done about that. Jesus did not drink fermented Wine, no matter how much folks want to believe he did, so they can drink it, he never did. Not ever. Because* Jesus is the word made flesh,* why would he tell us to avoid it and then he drink it, that is false. So many folks accept the false teachings of Jesus without question, yet you want to call him your friend, really. The bible tells the whole story. Jesus was lied on and betrayed and falsely accused. Period. He is not guilty of any of those things he was accused of. We know this because if he was then there is no hope for us. He would not have rose from the dead and ascended to heaven and plead to God for us. Because he would have failed his mission. He said it is finished, he has completed everything that the ones he had sent failed. There is One God, One Faith, and One Baptism. So we know that there are many, many faiths out there. Me personally, I want to follow the scriptures completely because it says one faith. The bible is our only standard, and we should all be on the same page, but as Christians we are not and the main reason why is folks want to do it their own way. Doesn't matter if this is what your churches teaches or not. The church is full of sinners and saints together. Can't follow them we have to follow Christ and thereby knowing and believing what the bible says is true.


 


I am also glad to see a fellow SDA on fire for the Lord.  But I feel that I need to make a few corrections in some of the responses you have given in this thread are not an accurate account of SDA beliefs.  First off we do have alters and alter calls in the SDA church.  It has nothing to do with seeking attention and it has a biblical foundation. Also, the SDA church recently admitted that the wine drunk in biblical times was fermented.  While there are many legitimate and biblical reasons that support a person's decision to abstain, we cannot re-write history because it supports our church views.  I feel the need to point these things out because there are many here who are unfamiliar with SDA dogma and beliefs.  And while your opinions are held by some in the church I want those reading this thread to also understand that some of your beliefs are personal and held by many in the denomination but are not the official position of our church.  Lastly, I just wanted to state that agree with you on the fact that the bible should be our only guide.  I hope that you continue to be blessed in you endeavor to draw close to God and be all that he would have you be. Be Blessed!


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## Belle Du Jour (Sep 2, 2013)

dicapr said:


> I am also glad to see a fellow SDA on fire for the Lord.  But I feel that I need to make a few corrections in some of the responses you have given in this thread are not an accurate account of SDA beliefs.  First off we do have alters and alter calls in the SDA church.  It has nothing to do with seeking attention and it has a biblical foundation. Also, the SDA church recently admitted that the wine drunk in biblical times was fermented.  While there are many legitimate and biblical reasons that support a person's decision to abstain, *we cannot re-write history because it supports our church views.*  I feel the need to point these things out because there are many here who are unfamiliar with SDA dogma and beliefs.  And while your opinions are held by some in the church I want those reading this thread to also understand that some of your beliefs are personal and held by many in the denomination but are not the official position of our church.  Lastly, I just wanted to state that agree with you on the fact that the bible should be our only guide.  I hope that you continue to be blessed in you endeavor to draw close to God and be all that he would have you be. Be Blessed!



Although I knew this without you saying it, thank you for posting a more accurate SDA viewpoint.


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## Belle Du Jour (Sep 2, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> The Priest did not drink wine or strong drink. Melchizedek was a type of Christ he had no real beginning and no real end, But he was to remain a priest forever.* In knowing that he would remain a priest forever, we know that he was obedient and never went against the teachings of God and like Samson and others, God spoke directly to him his Laws. *
> *Leviticus 10:9-11*
> King James Version (KJV)
> 9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
> ...



OK, now you are creating your own interpretation.


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## JaneBond007 (Sep 2, 2013)

blazingthru

I know where you are, I truly do.  I was in such a situation once.  It left me so scarred.  I don't know how I got to where I am even.  I think that what any of us who less troubled by wine want you to think is that His yoke is easy.  I'm not pointing to sin, but that the legalism is sometimes too much.  I, personally, don't want you to fear but to live, freely.  When we follow Him, we live freely in His love.  Granted, some things are not for some people and you have indicated absolute right points about why you should not drink.  But please know, you are not the sole lover of Christ.  I have been there...one day, I might explain it all in a post.


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## Galadriel (Sep 2, 2013)

Shimmie said:


> ********
> 
> In Bible College, we were also taught to consider one of the reasons for drinking wine during that time was also due to the poor water conditions.




That's right. Even in the Middle Ages, people drank ale more than water because of water conditions.


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## Belle Du Jour (Sep 2, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> *So many folks accept the false teachings of Jesus without question, *yet you want to call him your friend, really.  The bible tells the whole story. Jesus was lied on and betrayed and falsely accused. Period.  He is not guilty of any of those things he was accused of.  We know this because if he was then there is no hope for us. He would not have rose from the dead and ascended to heaven and plead to God for us.  Because he would have failed his mission. He said it is finished, he has completed everything that the ones he had sent failed.   There is One God, One Faith, and One Baptism. So *we know that there are many, many faiths out there. * Me personally, I want to follow the scriptures completely because it says one faith. The bible is our only standard, and we should all be on the same page, but as Christians we are not and the main reason why is folks want to do it their own way.  Doesn't matter if this is what your churches teaches or not. The church is full of sinners and saints together.  Can't follow them we have to follow Christ and thereby knowing and believing what the bible says is true.



See, that is a very tricky statement to make when your own denomination was established in the 19th century and high value is placed on the writings of Ellen White as well as the Bible.  erplexed And I'm not trying to shade 7th Day Adventists.  (At one point, I had a lot of friends and acquaintances who were SDA and even attended their serviced a couple times.  Very lovely people.)  What I don't like is the attitude of "I understand better than you."  I'm sure I've been guilty of it too because I'm zealous about my faith, but we have to be careful not to put down other Christians in this way.


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## Galadriel (Sep 2, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> There are many who do what they want to and make every excuse under the sun to do it.  I am the exact same way, but its a thought I wrestle with, then I let it go because I have decided that I will follow the Bible and not pick and chose what I will take out of it or leave in it.



You see, that's the problem--you are picking and choosing based on your denomination's particular interpretations and then condemning other Christians for not following SDA doctrine.

I understand and respect the position of a Christian who chooses to abstain from alcohol and even advocates it if she feels strongly about it. Shimmie doesn't like alcohol and has seen people abuse it or use it as a crutch--so she chooses to set an example by staying away from it in addition to her healthy eating/drinking regimen. I think that's great. However, going over to other Christians and telling them their lives and souls are in danger because they choose to drink wine (something that Our Lord Himself drank and even used as the occasion for His first miracle), is just plain wacky Biblical interpretation and Phariseeism.

Avoiding drunkenness and alcohol abuse is good--*all* Christians are bound do avoid these. However, like the Pharisees, you create a man-made hedge around it and proclaim that having a glass of wine is a sin--something not supported by Scripture and not even supported by Jesus Christ since He Himself drank wine.


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## Leigh (Sep 2, 2013)

Luke 7:34-35


The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners! ’ Yet wisdom is justified by all her children.”


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## Leigh (Sep 2, 2013)

1Tim 5:23


(No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.)


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## Leigh (Sep 2, 2013)

Titus 2:1-3

But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine. Older men are to be sober- minded, dignified, self- controlled, sound in faith, in love, and in steadfastness. Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine.


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## Leigh (Sep 2, 2013)

Heb 8:13

In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


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## Leigh (Sep 2, 2013)

Hen 9:9 - 17

Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.


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## Leigh (Sep 2, 2013)

Colossians 2:16 -23


Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.
 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” ( referring to things that all perish as they are used) —according to human precepts and teachings? These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self- made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.


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## Leigh (Sep 2, 2013)

Scripture cautions against over indulgence, however, if one wants a glass of wine then according to scripture that's not a bad thing. It isn't sin, however, lets say I wanted a piece of bacon and my sister doesn't eat pork. I wouldn't eat that around her.  

1Cor 6:12

All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient:all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats:but God shall destroy both it and them.

Rom 14: 12-17

So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Let us not therefore judge one another any more:but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself:but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. Let not then your good be evil spoken of: For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.


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## JaneBond007 (Sep 2, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> *There are many who do what they want to and make every excuse under the sun to do it.*  I am the exact same way, ...



Well, honestly, that is not me, tho.  I'm not making excuses like that.  





> Does God really agree with this. (I went to Mass and I raised my girls in catholic school) This is not to assault or offend you, *this is what I did.*



You say you attended Mass, but were you catholic?  Anybody can go to catholic school but not all students can take the eucharist.  Not all students are enrolled in the catechism studies.  I would assume that you didn't have a deep knowledge of why and how and if G-d approved?  That might be one reason it seemed so wrong for you.




> For instance, most churches have an altar, SDA churches do not. but they do call everyone up to the front they do not say Altar but in my mind its the same thing. I do not like that. I can't find a bible reason for us to do it. Because it appears as if you get extra attention because you go to the altar when you do not. But I learned this because I searched for an answer and then I sent a emails to a bible scholar to show me where I can find the real answers that I was missing and he confirmed what I already knew.




I would say that you need to know the Jewish roots of your faith in order to put things into perspective.  And those studies can last a lifetime to truly get the proper perspective.  For me, the New Testament often doesn't make sense so I'm trying to come at it from the other direction, like, where on earth did they get this?  I need and am seeking deep study in both.  No, take that back, I am receiving because I'm discounting a group of wonderful people elsewhere who are guiding me in that.  I guess they can count as "studies."




> *I am not trying to offend anyone but people are going to get offended *regardless honestly there is nothing that can be done about that.  Jesus did not drink fermented Wine, no matter how much folks want to believe he did, so they can drink it, he never did. Not ever. Because* Jesus is the word made flesh,*



I need to think about this before I type it.  I've already jacked up once today ...oh L-rd...but I'm going to say that, in your perspective that it is wrong and never happened when we've also learned that it is preference of several in the SDA and not their official teaching, the feeling of insult derives from your feeling that another is not walking the right path.  Again, I'd point to learning the true Jewish roots of your faith and not just dietary laws but the reasons behind them and other laws to get a better understanding.  Thing is, so many in CF do not believe other writings are necessary.  This is how catholics and Jews differ (other than Jesus as Messiah) from you in that we have the sacred oral laws and their explanation in addition to scripture.  It's kinda like "what came first, chicken or egg?"  




> *There is One God, One Faith, and One Baptism*. So we know that there are many, many faiths out there.  Me personally, I want to follow the scriptures completely because it says one faith. The bible is our only standard, and we should all be on the same page, but as Christians we are not and the main reason why is *folks want to do it their own way*.  Doesn't matter if this is what your churches teaches or not. The church is full of sinners and saints together. * Can't follow them* we have to follow Christ and thereby knowing and believing what the bible says is true.



Well, that is true. This is why I am catholic.  I'd somewhat agree with that but it was due to abuses.  However, Martin Luther left the church and didn't push to reform some issues of indulgence etc. within it.  That is the reason there are so many diff. ways.  Yes, they are continuously doing it their own way...away from the orthodoxy.  But that doesn't mean they aren't part of the Body at all.  G-d heals and knows the heart.  

And yes, again, I am following what He instituted on earth as His Church and that what He says about the apostolic tradition etc....it's not following sinners.  I guess like all of us, in varying degrees, we are still looking for that one thing that will raise us up to the next level.  Just please know that some of this is your own preference and doesn't equate another with sin or trying to live as they want.  There are prohibitions etc. and the rest is largely up to choice/tradition/culture etc.


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## blazingthru (Sep 3, 2013)

dicapr said:


> I am also glad to see a fellow SDA on fire for the Lord.  But I feel that I need to make a few corrections in some of the responses you have given in this thread are not an accurate account of SDA beliefs.  First off we do have alters and alter calls in the SDA church.  It has nothing to do with seeking attention and it has a biblical foundation. Also, the SDA church recently admitted that the wine drunk in biblical times was fermented.  While there are many legitimate and biblical reasons that support a person's decision to abstain, we cannot re-write history because it supports our church views.  I feel the need to point these things out because there are many here who are unfamiliar with SDA dogma and beliefs.  And while your opinions are held by some in the church I want those reading this thread to also understand that some of your beliefs are personal and held by many in the denomination but are not the official position of our church.  Lastly, I just wanted to state that agree with you on the fact that the bible should be our only guide.  I hope that you continue to be blessed in you endeavor to draw close to God and be all that he would have you be. Be Blessed!



not sure where your corrections are, there is no Altar in the SDA churches, now if your church has an altar well that is something. Also they do not say come to the Altar, thats not in the SDA church. But they do say come up. there is no altar to kneel at, but since you said there is, please explain, since this is a new thing for me and you have been Adventist all your life. In everything that is done there is a biblical reason that we can refer to and you evidently say I am wrong please correct me so that I am prepared to give an answer for why we do what we do. Because in this I am lost. What I was saying was I do not like that he calls people up. What is the purpose of it. Why would anyone go to the "Altar" I went to the altar because I had a special request, before I became SDA. Now I know that there is no need to go to the Altar even for that request there is more to it but it escapes me at the moment. I will come back to this.

The Churches teaches abstaining from alcohol period. All SDA teaches that. you profess this before your baptized in front of the entire church. Caffeine too, thats is why its frown upon to eat chocolate, but the "church" is liberal now and so the people, but who are we following?  is Gods standards changed?  no they have not. 

Honestly, I don't think when I talk, I talk about what the Church practices. I did learn from abstaining from SDA but I did my own research and I posted those scriptures. What I have to say means nothing. It is what God says and so the Church means nothing we stand on the principles of God and that is who we have to give an account, not to the Church. So again I am lost. 

I also will be sending you a pm.


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## blazingthru (Sep 3, 2013)

Belle Du Jour said:


> OK, now you are creating your own interpretation.



Please explain?


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## menina (Sep 3, 2013)

Yes so there are scriptures that indicate Jesus drank wine, but not directly saying so. Ok thanks.


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## Leigh (Sep 3, 2013)

menina said:


> Yes so there are scriptures that indicate Jesus drank wine, but not directly saying so. Ok thanks.



Calling Him a drunkard or winebibber is pretty direct. And both translations say he came drinking...

Luke 7:33-35 (King James Version)
For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! But wisdom is justified of all her children.



For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon. ’ The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners! ’ Yet wisdom is justified by all her children.”


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## dicapr (Sep 3, 2013)

blazingthru If your background is Catholic you probably are overlooking the alter in a SDA church.  Most churches I attend have a simple wooden table in the front with an inscription and something resembling handles on the side.  They usually have flowers or a runner on them.  That is actually our alter.  That is why people are invited to come down front-to where the alter is.  We don't stress it but that is what it is.  Our communion is placed on the alter and some churches leave the tithes and offerings on the alter.  I have even seen members kneel before the alter during prayer. During the 90's alter calls were common at our church however they did become controversial when alter calls ended up being used for spiritual blackmail and putting people on the spot.  So now people are invited to come up front, but us old school SDA still know that what is up front and where people are gathering is before the alter.

I wanted to clear up my statement on alcohol.  The SDA church never changed their view on using alcohol.  What they did address was the mounting evidence that new wine was fermented in some form. Even with that admission there is enough biblical evidence to make a strong argument against alcohol consumption. But as I said before, any church must be careful not to bend the truth to fit their understanding of the bible.  We are to be sober minded and watching for the coming of the Lord.  That is a lot easier to do when you are not intoxicated.

As for caffeine, that is a hot topic in our church.  It boils down to whether the member believes EGW was speaking in absolutes or about abuse.  There is also the fact that there are SDA who do not adhere to EGW's writings.  And because unlike alcohol the bible is completely silent on caffeine it is up to our personal convictions to guide us in this area.


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## menina (Sep 3, 2013)

Leigh said:


> Calling Him a drunkard or winebibber is pretty direct. And both translations say he came drinking...
> 
> Luke 7:33-35 (King James Version)
> For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! But wisdom is justified of all her children.
> ...


 
Jesus was accused of a few things that he didn't do. We can assume he drank wine, fermented at that, but it only says drinking.

Also does wine promote holiness? Being sober minded? Idk


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## Leigh (Sep 3, 2013)

menina said:


> Jesus was accused of a few things that he didn't do. We can assume he drank wine, fermented at that, but it only says drinking.
> 
> Also does wine promote holiness? Being sober minded? Idk



No assumption for me. I only go by the Word, which says He was called a drunkard/winebibber because unlike John who didn't eat bread or drink wine, Jesus came doing both. He came both eating and drinking.

It's very plain.  Paul says wine help infirmities so yes to a degree it can promote holiness. Drinking wine doesn't mean you're not sober minded. Paul said a little. There is no specification as to how much Jesus drank, however, no where do I read he got drunk. He was called a drunkard because He drank wine, for all I know he had a sip or two and that was it.  I have no clue the quantity.

What I do know is that drinking excess wine is strongly cautioned against. Becoming addicted to wine is forbidden. Over indulgence is considered sin.  I'm sorry I can't look up scripture right now but it is strongly cautioned against drinking too much.

But to say it is sin to drink at all is the same as saying married people are not to have sex because it is sin.  Sex is only forbidden outside of marriage to the one you are having relations with.  So as long as the man and woman are married it is both ordained and commanded. 

My point is that like there are guidelines with sex, there are guidelines with drinking wine.  And one of those is not to drink with the brother or sister who is against it because that is a stumbling block for them.


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## menina (Sep 3, 2013)

Leigh said:


> No assumption for me. I only go by the Word, which says He was called a drunkard/winebibber because unlike John who didn't eat bread or drink wine, Jesus came doing both. He came both eating and drinking.
> 
> It's very plain. Paul says wine help infirmities so yes to a degree it can promote holiness. Drinking wine doesn't mean you're not sober minded. Paul said a little. There is no specification as to how much Jesus drank, however, no where do I read he got drunk. He was called a drunkard because He drank wine, for all I know he had a sip or two and that was it. I have no clue the quantity.
> 
> ...


 
I hear you. Me and my mom have going back and forth about this for years, lol. I see both sides of the discussion. I just keep praying to have a conviction for myself.


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## blazingthru (Sep 3, 2013)

dicapr said:


> blazingthru If your background is Catholic you probably are overlooking the alter in a SDA church.  Most churches I attend have a simple wooden table in the front with an inscription and something resembling handles on the side.  They usually have flowers or a runner on them.  That is actually our alter.  That is why people are invited to come down front-to where the alter is.  We don't stress it but that is what it is.  Our communion is placed on the alter and some churches leave the tithes and offerings on the alter.  I have even seen members kneel before the alter during prayer. During the 90's alter calls were common at our church however they did become controversial when alter calls ended up being used for spiritual blackmail and putting people on the spot.  So now people are invited to come up front, but us old school SDA still know that what is up front and where people are gathering is before the alter.
> 
> I wanted to clear up my statement on alcohol.  The SDA church never changed their view on using alcohol.  What they did address was the mounting evidence that new wine was fermented in some form. Even with that admission there is enough biblical evidence to make a strong argument against alcohol consumption. But as I said before, any church must be careful not to bend the truth to fit their understanding of the bible.  We are to be sober minded and watching for the coming of the Lord.  That is a lot easier to do when you are not intoxicated.
> 
> As for caffeine, that is a hot topic in our church.  It boils down to whether the member believes EGW was speaking in absolutes or about abuse.  There is also the fact that there are SDA who do not adhere to EGW's writings.  And because unlike alcohol the bible is completely silent on caffeine it is up to our personal convictions to guide us in this area.



oh  so now I understand.  I didn't know the table was the altar. which it is not in the front of our church and hasn't been since I been a member, what I was referring to is a round place to sit that is in the front of most churches you come up during altar call and you kneel on the cushion. I have been to quite a few SDA churches and I did not see this in the church nor did I ever hear them call for this during prayer nor have I seen the table that you mention except during communion and even then its covered so you did clear that up for me.  the other things you have mentioned. Ellen G White is not mention as often as other SDA churches, I don't know where she stands. This is from my own studies, we speak often about drinking wine and consuming caffeine and the wear and tear it does on the body. no one bashes anyone about their choices in this life. what they eat or drink. I don't think the bible is silent. There is a text that we apply to everything. 
*Philippians 4:8*
Finally, brethren, *whatsoever things are true*, *whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report*; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.


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## blazingthru (Sep 3, 2013)

JaneBond007 said:


> You say you attended Mass, but were you catholic?  Anybody can go to catholic school but not all students can take the eucharist.  Not all students are enrolled in the catechism studies.  I would assume that you didn't have a deep knowledge of why and how and if G-d approved?  That might be one reason it seemed so wrong for you.



I never wanted to be Catholic, I went because my friend went, I found it extremely boring, I was a child. I went when my friend got married she was catholic again, boring boring boring. I was like why. But I liked everything else we did in those days the Nuns were all over the place. I put both my daughters in Catholic school, because I wanted them to get a good christian education. It was when I was helping my daughter do her homework and using the bible I realize the teachings were different. she got an F and we used the bible. I was floored and started looking closely at things, but whatever, I did not completely walk away until years later. I grew up in different churches. the last being non-denomination.  The honest truth, it held no appeal for me at all. There was nothing interesting enough to keep me there, I hated all the statues, but when I was a child I believe they came alive and I like to dip my hands in the water. you use to do that as soon s you walked in. Don't know if they do that now.  But the Priest was nice and so were the Nuns. When I was pregnant with my son the Nuns helped me finish school and get my life together. They even allowed me to live with them.  So I have nothing bad to say about those people they were good and kind.


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## blazingthru (Sep 3, 2013)

JaneBond007 said:


> I would say that you need to know the Jewish roots of your faith in order to put things into perspective.  And those studies can last a lifetime to truly get the proper perspective.  For me, the New Testament often doesn't make sense so I'm trying to come at it from the other direction, like, where on earth did they get this?  I need and am seeking deep study in both.  No, take that back, I am receiving because I'm discounting a group of wonderful people elsewhere who are guiding me in that.  I guess they can count as "studies."



Actually, all we need is the word, although at times we can get stuck on something here or there and want to look deeper into understanding the why of something. I have a clear understanding of what and why I believe what I believe, I believe that if God goes through the explanations of why of something then he is saying do not drink it. I don't think any further then that although I did in the beginning of my studies, Because its awkward to not drink around your friend at a social event, but then I never was really comfortable with it and so it was easy for me to let it go and not look back. But if he says to not drink it then I do not drink it. I think if we do we can easy fall into sin, but that is my opinion. 

Tests show that after drinking three bottles of beer, there is an average of 13 percent net memory loss. After taking only small quantities of alcohol, trained typists were tested and their errors increased 40 percent. Only one ounce of alcohol increases the time required to make a decision by nearly 10 percent; hinders muscular reaction by 17 percent; increases errors due to lack of attention by 35 percent. —Paul Harvey

What Is Alcohol?

Let’s begin with a definition. There are many forms of this compound called alcohol. However, there is no mistaking that all of them are classified as poisons—toxins to the human body. The alcohol found in beverages such as beer, wine, and brandy is ethanol (C2H5OH), a clear, highly flammable liquid that has a burning taste and a characteristic odor.

What happens when one consumes this type of alcohol? Well, death usually occurs if the concentration of ethanol in the bloodstream exceeds about five percent! But even for those who use it sparingly, immediate behavioral changes, impairment of vision and unconsciousness can occur at lower concentrations. That’s interesting, isn't it? That’s exactly the same effect that other illicit drugs such as heroin, and even marijuana, have on those who use those substances. I doubt there are any Christian churches that would ordain the use of these drugs in even a casual social setting—or even to “calm the nerves” before bedtime. Is there any reason that alcohol should not be included in this list of drugs to avoid?


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## blazingthru (Sep 3, 2013)

*The whole of Scripture is clearly and adamantly against the consumption of alcohol, but human nature will look upon any textual ambiguity as a “loophole” to justify drinking alcohol. *

An example of this reasoning is the wedding in Cana, where Jesus turned water into wine. “When the master of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom. And he said to him, ‘Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until now!’” (John 2:9, 10). Those who support the intake of alcohol suggest this must have been alcoholic wine—after all, it was a wedding, and every wedding has wine—right? But let’s pause to consider the implications. There were six pots for Jesus to fill, and each of those would hold 20 to 30 gallons. That’s up to 180 gallons of beverage! 

Are we to believe that Jesus made 180 gallons of a destructive drug—enough to get every guest drunk and launch this new marriage with slurring lips and staggering feet? Indeed,* He would have been acting against His own Word! (Habakkuk 2:15; Luke 12:46; Ephesians 5:18).* If we approach this passage relying on the whole of Scripture, we must surely come to the conclusion that Jesus made unfermented wine—and the governor of the feast complimented the groom on its pure quality. (John 2:4, 6, 10. See also Mark 1:24, 2 Samuel 16:10).

Whatever the Soul Longs For

There are additional passages of Scripture that at first glance might lead a person to think drinking a little fermented wine in moderation might be biblically condoned. In the next few sections, we will address some of the verses that are sometimes construed to condone fermented wine, when in fact they do nothing of the sort. 

“And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household” (Deuteronomy 14:26). The phrase “strong drink” is translated from the word shekar. A Shekar is condemned by Solomon as a “brawler” (Proverbs 20:1). And Isaiah pronounces a woe upon those who “run after strong drink(shekar)” (Isaiah 5:11). Strong drink was also prohibited from the priests (Leviticus 10:9–11) and Nazarites (Numbers 6:2–4; Judges 13:3–5). So how could God so clearly condemn the use of “strong drink” in one place in the Bible, and yet approve of it in another place? Like the word yayin (“wine”), shekar is a generic term that could refer to either an alcoholic beverage, as noted above, or to a sweet, unfermented drink as is indicated in Isaiah 24:9. Shekar is also defined by the The Popular and Critical Bible Encyclopedia as: “Sweet Wine or Syrup. Shechar, luscious, saccharin drink or sweet syrup, especially sugar or honey of dates or of the palm-tree” or “Date or Palm Wine in its fresh and unfermented state.” In fact, “sugar” and “cider” are derivatives from shekar. Therefore, since shekar could mean either a sweet unfermented drink or an intoxicating drink, we must interpret the word according to the context of the verse. Would God encourage the use of tithe money to purchase a beverage that causes intoxication, health problems and diminishing of moral capacities? The only reasonable conclusion is that this verse is referring to the sweet palm-wine beverage in its fresh and unfermented state. 

Even if one refuses to accept this translation of the word, keep in mind, the verse in Deuteronomy 14:26 never tells them it is okay to drink this beverage. Rather, it is addressing how they were to transport offerings to present to the Lord when traveling long distances. Moses was recommending they carry money with them rather than to haul the offerings of beasts, grain, and wine long distances. When they arrived they were to purchase whatever they needed for offerings. The animal sacrifices could be eaten but they were commanded to pour the drink offerings on the ground. “And the drink offering thereof shall be the fourth part of an hin for the one lamb: in the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the LORD for a drink offering” (Numbers 28:7).


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## blazingthru (Sep 3, 2013)

JaneBond007 said:


> I need to think about this before I type it.  I've already jacked up once today ...oh L-rd...but I'm going to say that, in your perspective that it is wrong and never happened when we've also learned that it is preference of several in the SDA and not their official teaching, the feeling of insult derives from your feeling that another is not walking the right path.  Again, I'd point to learning the true Jewish roots of your faith and not just dietary laws but the reasons behind them and other laws to get a better understanding.  Thing is, so many in CF do not believe other writings are necessary.  This is how catholics and Jews differ (other than Jesus as Messiah) from you in that we have the sacred oral laws and their explanation in addition to scripture.  It's kinda like "what came first, chicken or egg?"



I am not promoting SDA, That is my faith, I believe that the Seventh Day Adventist church has the right of it. The "churches" practice different things and don't always adhere to what was once their own biblical principles, so what, that has nothing to do with it. What we are to hold to is our OWN walk with the Lord.  I Love my Church and my faith, but its my personal relationship with God is what will save me. Doesn't matter what church you belong too, well God says it does he says : “And I heard another voice from heaven saying, ‘Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues’ ” *(Revelation 18:4)*.
in Bible prophecy.  She, Her a Woman is a Church. please do not think this is the future this is now. Right now. 

As Christian we are require to study out anything that we learn to measure it against Gods words.   2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God.  So here, we know ALL scripture was given by the inspiration of God. We can believe and trust in the scriptures as God's Holy word. even if we don't like it. 

Psalm 119:105 thy word is a lamp unto my feet, And a light unto my path. So if we study it we won't walk in darkness and confusion. you consistently continue to learn more and more truths as you accept what your studying. Its honestly true as you start to believe and act, God reveals more bible truths to you. 

 1 Corinthians 2:13  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 
The bible should be all Christian standards and nothing else. Those other things causes us to not really understand what it all means nor to have a close relationship with God.  He becomes part of a ritual and no close and true friend.  People are always offended if you say something that might make them think about what they are doing or you say something they do not like or anything that questions their beliefs. But I do not. I want to learn and understand so the next time that same question comes up I know what I have studied.  case in point, the issue with the Altar hey I learned something. I was not wrong in what I said but there was a time before, there was an altar howbeit, not the same as I have ever seen in my life. 

Your also right, most Christians only want the scriptures and that is me.  I like a good christian novel and I like things to expound on what I feel might be difficult for me to understand, but I am not really interested in what someone else is teaching separate from the word of God. Especially, not traditions and stories passed down.  It does me no good in my walk. 
I also would not be very good in helping someone else come to Christ. 

This is how I spent my entire teenage and early adult years. Scared out of my mind from some traditions and false believes. Well actually up to five years ago.  I will not bring them up here, because some of these folk refuse to believe anything, these same folks are talking about the exact same thing we already rehashed again and again. all the information was provided for study and yet they ask the same question again. they are   *Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth*2 Timothy 3:7.


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## blazingthru (Sep 3, 2013)

JaneBond007 said:


> This is where I take offense.  There are scriptures demonstrating that Jesus drank wine....WINE, not grapejuice.  He encouraged others to drink WINE.  Now, as has clearly been displayed, those scriptures you posted and even agreed with are speaking on drunkenness.  That is not equated with drinking wine, it's equated with drinking too much wine to become intoxicated.
> 
> People should say, "oh, my understanding is XYZ and what about ABC scriptures?  Because my church encourages MNO" and never these pot shots of "well, I follow the L-rd and you don't."  Why is that???  You know G-d and no one else does?  Granted, some christians hate liquor, wine, dancing and cigarettes.  That's fine.  But when you cross the line to tell another person they are g-dless because they don't view it the way you do...uh, well.



Here I explain my feelings you read more into it then I intended. We serve the Lord doesn't mean no one else does, an any case, If God says wine is a mocker thats it. Leave it alone. But if you choose to drink it then that is your choice, we all have free will.


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## Galadriel (Sep 4, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> If we approach this passage relying on the whole of Scripture, we must surely come to the conclusion that Jesus made unfermented wine



Eh???.........


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## MrsHaseeb (Sep 4, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> Eh???.........



Lol Galadriel. Scripture actually makes it very plain that it was indeed fermented wine.... But that's neither here nor there. I don't see where the Bible says drinking wine or eating caffeine damns a person to Hell. But hey, it is what it is.


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## Nice & Wavy (Sep 4, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> Eh???.........


Chile.....


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## JaneBond007 (Sep 4, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> Here I explain my feelings you read more  into it then I intended. We serve the Lord doesn't mean no one else  does, an any case, If God says wine is a mocker thats it. Leave it  alone. But if you choose to drink it then that is your choice, we all  have free will.



Maybe, but it seems like....because of....



blazingthru said:


> *not offended at all. I use to be a social drinker but once I read the scriptures i gave it up.*  Its no longer a part of my life. Especially when I sit back later and wonder if I said to much or gave something away I should not have, that was to much for me. It was an easy thing to do. I actually don't think its misinterpreted I think honesty that people are going to drink regardless. *"There's nothing wrong with  a glass every now and then" who says that? the folks say that, Yet God say avoid it. who is right.  Oh and by the way, The word "abomination" in the Bible symbolizes lies (Proverbs 12:22). Babylon's wine, which contains false teachings, disorients and benumbs those who drink it and makes them spiritually drunk.*





blazingthru said:


> ... Most "Christian" feel that its okay to have a drink every now and then, yet God says do not even touch it because it will put you off guard and for some folks all they need is one drink, that's it.
> ...
> Amnon, *another drinker and the son of David, raped his half-sister Tamar*. Because of this insidious act, *he lost his life at the hands of his enraged brother while intoxicated *(2 Samuel 13:28).
> 
> ...




Eh, it's talking about intoxication.  That's different from taking wine.  And people don't realize that a shot of 32. oz. Pepsi and several donuts also intoxicate the body, in various other ways.  Fatty steak?  The bible warns against over indulgence for everything.



blazingthru said:


> *As for me and my house we serve the Lord*, so for me when I read the dangers of drinking from the word that is it for me.*  Since I choose to walk on the side that is going to keep me focus and on track*. I will abstain, we all have free will to make our own choices, *but fully knowing what the end results for so many, I don't see how a "christian" can drink calmly.* But that is my opinion not an opinion from the word.



Eh, well, that was the clencher. erplexed  I know what you are saying, though.



blazingthru said:


> so that we can understand prophecy and the end times events that are going on now.* Remember almost the entire world is deceived. the bible says over and over to be wise*,
> ........ But you can't have this attitude to the word of God. Its no longer God your following but yourself, and thereby the door is opened wide for you to be fooled.  Many are already blinded to what is going on right in front of their faces, for lack of wisdom.








blazingthru said:


> *There are many who do what they want to and make every excuse under the sun to do it.  I am the exact same way, *but its a thought I wrestle with, then I let it go because I have decided that I will follow the Bible and not pick and chose what I will take out of it or leave in it.  If you feel that I was saying your Godless, well I don't know what to say. Your faith practices drinking wine, you do that in your services. * If I was you, I would be thinking about it.* Calling it into question.  Does God really agree with this. (I went to Mass and I raised my girls in catholic school) This is not to assault or offend you, *this is what I did.* .....
> I am not trying to offend anyone but people are going to get offended regardless honestly there is nothing that can be done about that.  Jesus did not drink fermented Wine, no matter how much folks want to believe he did, so they can drink it, he never did. Not ever. Because* Jesus is the word made flesh,* why would he tell us to avoid it and then he drink it,  that is false.  S*o many folks accept the false teachings of Jesus without question, yet you want to call him your friend, really.  *...The church is full of sinners and saints together.  Can't follow them we have to follow Christ and thereby knowing and believing what the bible says is true.



Jesus was an obedient Jew.  People hardly ever get that.  Just because he told his disciples to pick and eat wheat on Shabbat doesn't mean He regularly disregarded Shabbat. He demonstrated that as Creator, He was the L-rd of Shabbat. The kiddusha is made over wine, always has been.  Shrugs.  



blazingthru said:


> ....* I found it extremely boring, I was a child. I went when my friend got married she was catholic again, boring boring boring.* I was like why. But I liked everything else we did in those days the Nuns were all over the place.....When I was pregnant with my son the Nuns helped me finish school and get my life together. They even allowed me to live with them.  So I have nothing bad to say about those people they were good and kind.



That honestly made me laugh out loud.  It can be if you don't know what is going on.    I'm glad they helped you.  They were being Christ to you.



blazingthru said:


> *The whole of Scripture is clearly and adamantly against the consumption of alcohol, but human nature will look upon any textual ambiguity as a “loophole” to justify drinking alcohol. *
> 
> .





blazingthru said:


> I Love my Church and my faith, but its my personal relationship with God is what will save me. Doesn't matter what church you belong too, well God says it does he says : “And I heard another voice from heaven saying, ‘Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues’ ” *(Revelation 18:4)*.
> in Bible prophecy.  She, Her a Woman is a Church. please do not think this is the future this is now. Right now.
> 
> .......
> *Your also right, most Christians only want the scriptures and that is me.*........... because some of these folk refuse to believe anything, these same folks are talking about the exact same thing we already rehashed again and again. *all the information was provided for study and yet they ask the same question again. they are * *Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth*2 Timothy 3:7.





To the red-bolded, no, not tht most christians only want, that many denominations only HAVE the scriptures and do not follow the apostolic tradition.  It is what it is.


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## CoilyFields (Sep 4, 2013)

Not a heaven or hell issue...thank God!

But I think we can all agree that refraining from drunkeness is DEFINATELY prohibited. Everything else (to me) falls under cultural and individual preference and limits.

But I do caution us to remain apart from the world. Sitting at a bar with a beer isnt a good look for a Christian (in America). It will affect our witness to others. We must be careful of what we present to the world and to new CHristians who may not understand or be weak in their faith. But this goes for a lot of things that may not be sins in and of themselves.
If its wrong to you...please dont do it. If its wrong to your sister...please dont do it around her.

Oh and as for me...I absolutely HATE the taste of alcohol. Even the smell is gross to me. I'ev only had one kind of champagne that I found pleasant. My first taste of alcohol was in church lol. In undergrad when I was too tired to walk to the church I usually went to, I would go to the one on campus. It was presbetyrian I think. Well it happened to be communion sunday and i went up. Imagine my surprise when I dont taste welches grape juice in the cup!!! lol.


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## blazingthru (Sep 4, 2013)

CoilyFields said:


> *Not a heaven or hell issue...thank God!*
> 
> But I think we can all agree that refraining from drunkeness is DEFINATELY prohibited. Everything else (to me) falls under cultural and individual preference and limits.
> 
> ...



love the bolded, thanks! totally agree.


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## divya (Sep 5, 2013)

The issue of wine is one that has been long debated within Christianity. I believe that the Scriptures make a distinction between fermented and unfermented, with the latter being unacceptable to the Lord. However, I do understand that people differ on the matter. It really shouldn't be an issue to bring up the discussion regardless of where one stands on the matter. It is good to explore these issues so that we can all make a decision for ourselves and walk according to our conviction.



dicapr said:


> I am also glad to see a fellow SDA on fire for the Lord.  But I feel that I need to make a few corrections in some of the responses you have given in this thread are not an accurate account of SDA beliefs.  First off we do have alters and alter calls in the SDA church.  It has nothing to do with seeking attention and it has a biblical foundation. *Also, the SDA church recently admitted that the wine drunk in biblical times was fermented.*  While there are many legitimate and biblical reasons that support a person's decision to abstain, we cannot re-write history because it supports our church views.  I feel the need to point these things out because there are many here who are unfamiliar with SDA dogma and beliefs.  And while your opinions are held by some in the church I want those reading this thread to also understand that some of your beliefs are personal and held by many in the denomination but are not the official position of our church.  Lastly, I just wanted to state that agree with you on the fact that the bible should be our only guide.  I hope that you continue to be blessed in you endeavor to draw close to God and be all that he would have you be. Be Blessed!



Wait, that is not accurate at all. 

The SDA movement has long explained the difference between what is referred to as fermented and unfermented wine. It has long acknowledged that both types of wine were consumed in Biblical times, and thus the counsel against the latter.  Additionally, not because she is newer in the SDA faith does that mean that she doesn't know or understand the doctrines and the Scriptures upon which such beliefs are based.

The fundamental beliefs of the movement include the following: 

22. Christian Behavior: 
We are called to be a godly people who think, feel, and act in harmony with the principles of heaven. For the Spirit to recreate in us the character of our Lord we involve ourselves only in those things which will produce Christlike purity, health, and joy in our lives. This means that our amusement and entertainment should meet the highest standards of Christian taste and beauty. While recognizing cultural differences, our dress is to be simple, modest, and neat, befitting those whose true beauty does not consist of outward adornment but in the imperishable ornament of a gentle and quiet spirit. It also means that because our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit, we are to care for them intelligently. Along with adequate exercise and rest, we are to adopt the most healthful diet possible and abstain from the unclean foods identified in the Scriptures. *Since alcoholic beverages, tobacco, and the irresponsible use of drugs and narcotics are harmful to our bodies, we are to abstain from them as well. Instead, we are to engage in whatever brings our thoughts and bodies into the discipline of Christ, who desires our wholesomeness, joy, and goodness. [(Rom. 12:1, 2; 1 John 2:6; Eph. 5:1-21; Phil. 4:8; 2 Cor. 10:5; 6:14-7:1; 1 Peter 3:1-4; 1 Cor. 6:19, 20; 10:31; Lev. 11:1-47; 3 John 2.)*

Now people do disagree on the matter within the church but the above represents the official position of the church. 

http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/


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## blazingthru (Sep 5, 2013)

JaneBond007 said:


> *Jesus was an obedient Jew.  People hardly ever get that.  Just because he told his disciples to pick and eat wheat on Shabbat doesn't mean He regularly disregarded Shabbat.* He demonstrated that as Creator, He was the L-rd of Shabbat. The kiddusha is made over wine, always has been.  Shrugs.



JaneBond007,  Only the Pharisee saw Jesus as breaking the Sabbath, he is Lord of the Sabbath it is his creation, he could not break it, in any case, the pharisees created more then 100 laws for the Sabbath.  When on the Sabbath we are not to work, not to cook, not to buy or sale, not to do our own pleasure.  nor have anyone else do these things for us, nor those who live in our households. 

*Isaiah 58:13-14*
Amplified Bible (AMP)
13 If you turn away your foot from [traveling unduly on] the Sabbath, from doing your own pleasure on My holy day, and call the Sabbath a [spiritual] delight, the holy day of the Lord honorable, and honor Him and it, not going your own way or seeking or finding your own pleasure or speaking with your own [idle] words,
14 Then will you delight yourself in the Lord, and I will make you to ride on the high places of the earth, and I will feed you with the heritage [promised for you] of Jacob your father; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken it.

The Pharisee's made Sabbath a burden, because they were afraid to go into captivity again. Not realizing that it was suppose to be a heart change. It is still very important and very relevant, but folks really should be looking at who changed the date! Daniel 7:25. The day was changed and God did not authorized it. 

You know people have no problem with the commandments only the Sabbath.  What Jesus did was magnify the Law. He didn't change the Law he magnified it. So when you say Jesus was an Obedient Jew are you speaking from your Jewish side or the Catholic, The Jewish side doesn't believe he was the son of God right?


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## blazingthru (Sep 5, 2013)

JaneBond007 said:


> To the red-bolded, no, not tht most christians only want, that many denominations only HAVE the scriptures and do not follow the apostolic tradition.  It is what it is.



JaneBond007,  What does the word say about traditions, we need to be careful, what we practice and believe.

Matthew 15:6
*So for the sake of your tradition (the rules handed down by your forefathers), you have set aside the Word of God [depriving it of force and authority and making it of no effect].*
Matthew 15:5-7 (in Context) Matthew 15 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
Mark 7:3
*For the Pharisees and all of the Jews do not eat unless [merely for ceremonial reasons] they wash their hands [diligently up to the elbow] with clenched fist, adhering [carefully and faithfully] to the tradition of [practices and customs handed down to them by] their forefathers [to be observed].*
Mark 7:2-4 (in Context) Mark 7 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
Mark 7:4
*And [when they come] from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they purify themselves; and there are many other traditions [oral, man-made laws handed down to them, which they observe faithfully and diligently, such as], the washing of cups and wooden pitchers and widemouthed jugs and utensils of copper and beds—*
Mark 7:3-5 (in Context) Mark 7 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
Mark 7:5
*And the Pharisees and scribes kept asking [Jesus], Why do Your disciples not order their way of living according to the tradition handed down by the forefathers [to be observed], but eat with hands unwashed and ceremonially not purified?*
Mark 7:4-6 (in Context) Mark 7 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
Mark 7:8
*You disregard and give up and ask to depart from you the commandment of God and cling to the tradition of men [keeping it carefully and faithfully].
Mark 7:7-9 (in Context) Mark 7 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
Mark 7:9*
*And He said to them, You have a fine way of rejecting [thus thwarting and nullifying and doing away with] the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition (your own human regulations)!*
Mark 7:8-10 (in Context) Mark 7 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
Mark 7:13
*Thus you are nullifying and making void and of no effect [the authority of] the Word of God through your tradition, which you [in turn] hand on. And many things of this kind you are doing.*
Mark 7:12-14 (in Context) Mark 7 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

*Colossians 2:8*
See to it that no one carries you off as spoil or makes you yourselves captive by his so-called philosophy and intellectualism and vain deceit (idle fancies and plain nonsense), following human tradition (men’s ideas of the material rather than the spiritual world), just crude notions following the rudimentary and elemental teachings of the universe and disregarding [the teachings of] Christ (the Messiah).

Now Jews use to pass the scriptures down by singing. That tradition is perfect, you learned the scriptures at home, which is a tradition we should all have, It doesn't change the word of God it encourages it and helps, but there are other traditions that leave you to accept things not according to the word of which we are judged upon. 
*Mark 7:7 *
7 *Howbeit in vain* do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
We have to be careful what we read and follow that is not directly from the bible. We are judge by the word. 

You know many protestant faith teaches the same thing about having a second chance, which is not found anywhere in scripture, there is no 7 years of tribulation written in the word. But lets say we agree with that , what if there wasn't? then what.


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