# Struggling with tithing because of church greed....



## Mizani_Mrs (Sep 9, 2007)

Hello my fellow sisters in Christ.  I have to share something that is on my mind especially with the recent Juanita Bynaum news that has been going on.   I confess that I am a struggling tither.  The reason being... Now i tithe a good percentage (though not 10%) of my income and I am struggling because it burns my soul to see so many churches with so much money and I feel like this money should solely benefit the community.  As many churches that are in a community....where are the church sponsored food banks, assisted living facilities, and the after school boys/girls mentoring programs, and the sports/hobby teams for kids????  I dont mean dish out a small portion of the church revenue...but i think that the lions share of a churchs revenue should be given back to the community.  I dont feel like churches are doing their part to uphold a community.   In the bible, tithing and the money went to the poor...nowadays we have pastors who own bentleys, jets, vacation houses and give their fiancee's 7carat engagement rings.   I feel like this is another reason why our communities are so messed up because churches arent doing their part and the govt isnt doing their part either.  I feel my pastor has an honest salary and isnt money hungry, but sometimes I do feel like us buying all this property and trying to build churches all over the city is a way to generate revenue and become a 'mega-church'.   What are your thoughts?  Can my donations to local charities/foodbanks be considered as a tithe and offering?  or does it have to be to a church?


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## StrawberryQueen (Sep 9, 2007)

*IMO* (not based off of anything in the Bible, just how I feel) I believe that money/time can be given to different areas outside of the church that contribute to the Lords kingdom.  Like giving to a women's or children's charity, donating books, giving your time (which is much more precious than any money).  Or giving to organizations that build churches, or giving directly to someone.

*IMO*-it's the giving that counts, not the percentage or where.


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## firecracker (Sep 9, 2007)

I'm sorry to hear your feeling conflicted.  It sounds like you don't like the direction your church is going in which equates to you giving money to a charity and you don't like their cause.  Pray for direction on this issue.
My old church was going in the mega church direction.  I became very uneasy and uncomfortable.  I found a church home that was concerned with saving souls and changing lives within the community first.  Basically I found a church with old school values and less concern with worldly bling etc.


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## PaperClip (Sep 9, 2007)

These may come off as disconnected, random thoughts but hopefully the total will be meaningful.... P.S.: I didn't realize this would be as long as it is but it's from the heart!

1. Ultimately, tithing is between the Lord and YOU...concerning percentage, placement, etc. 

2. Both the percentage and placement matters in that you can support your actions by the Word of God, for YOURSELF...because you have to answer to the Lord for what YOU DO, not what the PASTOR does....

3. While I believe that tithing can happen across MULTIPLE placements, e.g., local church, charity, etc. (at the SAME TIME), I also believe tithing should be DIRECTLY LINKED to the SOURCE that is serving to provide YOUR SPIRITUAL NEED.... Kind of like going to a restaurant to eat. If you ate at McDonald's, you wouldn't pay (give your tithes and offerings) at Burger King, if you will.... 

4. Because the tithe is between the Lord and you, once you RELEASE that tithe into GOD'S hand (via the local church, IMHO), then 1) you have done what you were supposed to do and 2) you have to TRUST that those resources are going where they are supposed to go. 

4a. This is why it DOES MATTER what church a person goes to...a church where you feel that the leadership can be trusted to obey the Lord and serve in integrity. And should a situation or pattern of activity comes along that doesn't sit well with you, well, IMHO, you have three options: 1) get up and leave ON YOUR OWN; 2) ask the Lord whether you should stay or go; 3) stay and pray for that leader. It's takes REAL FAITH to stay and pray if the Lord says to stay and pray.

5. Per your concern about the church's involvement to the community: serving the community is a noble cause, a needed cause. And this is going to sound harsh but it's the truth: SHOULD THE LORD LEAD YOU TO START YOUR OWN CHURCH, THEN YOU CAN DO WHAT YOU WANT TO DO WITH IT.... and this applies across the board: how one chooses to live, raise their children, run their household, etc. The Lord is not CONFUSED as to whom He appointed as the leader of that church (presuming that your pastor is appointed by the Lord and not himself). So what you think the church should be doing may not be what the Lord has told that leader to do.

With regard to the...how can I say...seeming IMBALANCE between some pastors and congregations: I'm aware that it exists... and I'm not here to defend it blindly...but I will say that I have a majority role in the decisions I make in terms of what I have. What my pastor drives has nothing to do with what I drive. One is not contingent upon the other. Plus, I can say for my pastor since I've been at the church for close to two decades, I've seen first-hand his OBEDIENCE to the Lord...and when you obey the Word, the Lord honors that....

It is my understanding that in biblical times, the tithe went, in part to the Levites whose assignment was to tend to the house of God because they (the Levites) were not permitted to have their own income-generating entities. And just like in the Bible days until now, the Body of Christ is mandated to tend to the poor, widows, and orphans. Allow me to explore this in my own mind for a second in terms of why this seems to be an issue today:

it's easy to identify a widow or an orphan. I think the issue comes in as to how to identify someone who is POOR, esp. in America. For discussion, let's look at the federal poverty guidelines:
http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/07poverty.shtml

2007 HHS Poverty Guidelines
1 person: $10,210
2 people: 13,690
3 people: 17,170
4 people: 20,650
additional numbers at the link above.
*SOURCE:* _Federal Register_, Vol. 72, No. 15, January 24, 2007, pp. 3147–3148 

I think that we don't know how to tell who is really poor. What's really a need and what's really a want? And when where's the line between HELP and ENABLING SOMEONE'S IRRESPONSIBILITY/RECKLESSNESS?

In my closing , I think the megachurch label has gotten a bad rap. In biblical times, the church/synagogue/temple was the center of the community. The megachurch can do this...it just needs to figure out how to do so.... Other faiths have done it, e.g., Judaism, Roman Catholicism (Vatican!?!?), so I'm saying big isn't necessarily bad....

It's long, I know...but it's worth it!


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## Southernbella. (Sep 9, 2007)

Mizani_Mrs said:


> Hello my fellow sisters in Christ. I have to share something that is on my mind especially with the recent Juanita Bynaum news that has been going on. I confess that I am a struggling tither. The reason being... Now i tithe a good percentage (though not 10%) of my income and I am struggling because it burns my soul to see so many churches with so much money and I feel like this money should solely benefit the community. As many churches that are in a community....where are the church sponsored food banks, assisted living facilities, and the after school boys/girls mentoring programs, and the sports/hobby teams for kids???? I dont mean dish out a small portion of the church revenue...but i think that the lions share of a churchs revenue should be given back to the community. I dont feel like churches are doing their part to uphold a community. In the bible, tithing and the money went to the poor...nowadays we have pastors who own bentleys, jets, vacation houses and give their fiancee's 7carat engagement rings. I feel like this is another reason why our communities are so messed up because churches arent doing their part and the govt isnt doing their part either. I feel my pastor has an honest salary and isnt money hungry, but sometimes I do feel like us buying all this property and trying to build churches all over the city is a way to generate revenue and become a 'mega-church'. What are your thoughts? Can my donations to local charities/foodbanks be considered as a tithe and offering? or does it have to be to a church?


 
Tithing is not mandated. As Christians, we are not under the law, but under grace. Our instructions are clear...we are to give cheerfully, not under compulsion (which is what a mandated 10% is), and we are to give according to what God has placed in our hearts. Whether that is 10%, 5%, or 30%, it's up to each believer.

I also agree with you that it is disappointing to see what is going on in some churches. It's unbelievable that some churches pay close to a million dollars a month for their light bills when there are communities around them that are dying financially. There was an article in the AJC talking about home foreclosures, and it blew my mind that the two counties with the most foreclosures in the entire state happened to be the counties that hold the two biggest megachurches in the state. Something is wrong.

Like RR said, God does want us to tend to the poor around us. You can find shelters, nursing homes, children's hospitals all around you that need funding as well as volunteers. Also, some of those old churches on the corner that have been in the same spot for 50 years can always use help. 

I don't believe you HAVE to give only to your church. When the tithe was law, some of the tithes were collected by the priests and taken to the storehouses, but since there are no more temples/storehouses, that doesn't apply to our giving.

Go with your gut. You have spiritual discernment. But I don't blame you one bit for wanting to see people be helped by your giving.


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## january noir (Sep 9, 2007)

What I have to share is very simple for a very, very complex issue in our faith.

*What would Jesus do?*

I don't understand all the complexities of church protocol and I am a church officer.  But I *do understand* that today's churches, have been commercialized and is a business.  The pastor is the CEO and the deacons/trustees are the board of directors.

With that being said, put your money in *works* that help people honey, whether it is through your church, or outside of it.  *It* *still is the work of the Lord* and that would be wonderful in his eyes. .


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## Honey6928215 (Sep 9, 2007)

january noir said:


> What I have to share is very simple for a very, very complex issue in our faith.
> 
> *What would Jesus do?*
> 
> ...


 
Amen to that.  You have the Salvation Army and Crisis Assistant Ministries who helped people from being kicked out of their homes and their lights being turned off.  Believe me, I waited in those lines three times.


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## PinkPebbles (Sep 9, 2007)

OP-I live in Atlanta and I know exactly what you are talking about. This is one of the reasons why I’m currently looking for a new church home. Don’t ignore your feelings...please use the gift of spiritual discernment that God has given us.
I stepped out and I believe I know where God wants me to be...thanks to the lovely recommendations that my LHCF sisters provided. 
I believe that our giving to the church should help the community around us because it’s in the bible. {I believe in tithes & offering, it's an act of our faith and worship unto the Lord.}
RR- I agree, that’s why it does matter what church we belong too.

OP- Pray and God will tell you what to do...God did it for me. When I stepped out to visit other churches, that's when I've noticed other things that went on in my previous church that I needed to question with God.


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## kbragg (Sep 10, 2007)

lauren450 said:


> Tithing is not mandated. As Christians, we are not under the law, but under grace. Our instructions are clear...we are to give cheerfully, not under compulsion (which is what a mandated 10% is), and we are to give according to what God has placed in our hearts. Whether that is 10%, 5%, or 30%, it's up to each believer.
> 
> I also agree with you that it is disappointing to see what is going on in some churches. It's unbelievable that some churches pay close to a million dollars a month for their light bills when there are communities around them that are dying financially. There was an article in the AJC talking about home foreclosures, and it blew my mind that the two counties with the most foreclosures in the entire state happened to be the counties that hold the two biggest megachurches in the state. Something is wrong.
> 
> ...


 
Great post! I do have to disagree with you about tithing though. Tithing is an act of faith, it was around before the Law was given. Abraham tithed to Melchizedek in Genesis 14 (many believe that Melchizedek represented Jesus because in Psalm 110, and Hebrew 5,6, and 7 it refers to Jesus as a Priest after the order of Melchizedek, so one could fairly argue that just as Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek, so should we to Christ (the church is His body)  . Also it is mandated in the New Testament.(Hebrews 7) It's an act of faith, a promise of God, and the only place where God says to "prove" or "test" Him. Anywho, just offering a different perspective.


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## jade998 (Sep 10, 2007)

Ladies - I am confused about tithing - I have always been told that this was 10%. Where in the new testament does it say that it isn't mandated?

Thanks


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## Southernbella. (Sep 10, 2007)

jade998 said:


> Ladies - I am confused about tithing - I have always been told that this was 10%. Where in the new testament does it say that it isn't mandated?
> 
> Thanks


 
In the New Testament, tithing is only mentioned in relation to the people who were still under Mosaic Law. Jesus came to fulfill the law...we are now under grace.

Paul clearly says to Christians that we are give what is purposed in our heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion. 10% is never mentioned anywhere as it relates to free-will giving for Christians.

If you really look at tithing from a biblical perspective, what is practiced today isn't even tithing. I won't go into it here, but tithing as it is done now is a church tradition. But don't feel confused. If God places it on your heart to give 10%, then that is great!


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## Southernbella. (Sep 10, 2007)

kbragg said:


> Great post! I do have to disagree with you about tithing though. Tithing is an act of faith, it was around before the Law was given. Abraham tithed to Melchizedek in Genesis 14 (many believe that Melchizedek represented Jesus because in Psalm 110, and Hebrew 5,6, and 7 it refers to Jesus as a Priest after the order of Melchizedek, so one could fairly argue that just as Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek, so should we to Christ (the church is His body) . Also it is mandated in the New Testament.(Hebrews 7) It's an act of faith, a promise of God, and the only place where God says to "prove" or "test" Him. Anywho, just offering a different perspective.


 
Thank you for your perspective, K! I have to agree and disagree with you a bit, though. Abraham gave Melchizedek a tenth of the spoils of the war he waged against the four kings. The spoils weren't Abraham's, because he had already decided he wasn't going to keep any of it. He planned to give the spoils back to the King of Sodom. So he gave Melchizedek a tenth of King Sodom's spoils, and King of Sodom the other 90%. It was something he decided to do, so it was FREE WILL gift to Melzhizedek, which is exactly what Christians are to do.

As for Hebrews 7, it actually isn't a mandate. It talks about the law, but then it asks the question...if perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood, who were under the law, then why the need for Jesus?

_Hebrews 7:18-19_

_18The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. _

This is all about Jesus, and how he is a priest in the order of Melchezedek, but he is the better hope because he can get us close to God, which is what the laws were designed to do in the Old Testament. By placing ourselves under the law, we are actually taking a step backward.


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## cocoberry10 (Sep 10, 2007)

Mizani_Mrs said:


> *In the bible, tithing and the money went to the poor...nowadays we have pastors who own bentleys, jets, vacation houses and give their fiancee's 7carat engagement rings.   I feel like this is another reason why our communities are so messed up because churches arent doing their part and the govt isnt doing their part either. * I feel my pastor has an honest salary and isnt money hungry, but sometimes I do feel like us buying all this property and trying to build churches all over the city is a way to generate revenue and become a 'mega-church'.   What are your thoughts?  Can my donations to local charities/foodbanks be considered as a tithe and offering?  or does it have to be to a church?



I agree with StrawberryQueen.  Tithing was, is, and ALWAYS will be ALL ABOUT GOD!  It’s all about your faith in God.  When we tithe we say, “God I trust you with my life, including my finances, so I give you my “first fruits” because I know you will take care of the rest.  When I tithe, no matter how little money I have, I am always blessed because it’s a test of faith.  Therefore, no, I don’t think you have to give the money to a church’s collection plate.  God isn’t limited by 4 walls of a church and I believe it’s the heart you give with that counts more than where you put the money.  If you chose to give that money to a homeless person or to a child in need, I would consider this tithing.  And I totally agree with you about these pastors living bling bling while the people in their community are on welfare???  I mean, it would be one thing if a pastor could say…every child in my church lives in a home (not an apartment complex, not public housing), each is getting the finest education, every member has a car, no one is on welfare, everyone is going to college without paying student loans, everyone has a job, etc.  Then if the pastor has vacation homes, bentleys, jets, etc. I really don’t care.  But I don’t think there is a church where you will find this.  And that’s hypocrisy IMO!  If you really aren’t sure, even after reading our posts, go to the Lord and ask Him to show you.  He always does!


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## cocoberry10 (Sep 10, 2007)

StrawberryQueen said:


> *IMO* (not based off of anything in the Bible, just how I feel) I believe that money/time can be given to different areas outside of the church that contribute to the Lords kingdom.  Like giving to a women's or children's charity, donating books, giving your time (which is much more precious than any money).  Or giving to organizations that build churches, or giving directly to someone.
> 
> *IMO*-it's the giving that counts, not the percentage or where.



I totally agree!


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## cocoberry10 (Sep 10, 2007)

lauren450 said:


> I also agree with you that it is disappointing to see what is going on in some churches. It's unbelievable that some churches pay close to a million dollars a month for their light bills when there are communities around them that are dying financially. *There was an article in the AJC talking about home foreclosures, and it blew my mind that the two counties with the most foreclosures in the entire state happened to be the counties that hold the two biggest megachurches in the state. Something is wrong.*
> Like RR said, God does want us to tend to the poor around us. You can find shelters, nursing homes, children's hospitals all around you that need funding as well as volunteers. Also, some of those old churches on the corner that have been in the same spot for 50 years can always use help.
> 
> I don't believe you HAVE to give only to your church. When the tithe was law, some of the tithes were collected by the priests and taken to the storehouses, but since there are no more temples/storehouses, that doesn't apply to our giving.
> ...


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## cocoberry10 (Sep 10, 2007)

*Well said RR!*


RelaxerRehab said:


> These may come off as disconnected, random thoughts but hopefully the total will be meaningful.... P.S.: I didn't realize this would be as long as it is but it's from the heart!
> 
> 1. Ultimately, tithing is between the Lord and YOU...concerning percentage, placement, etc.
> 
> ...


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## nissi (Sep 10, 2007)

Sorry saints! Tithing is mandated (a command) by Scripture both in the OT and NT:

Old Testament:

Lev 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, [whether] of the seed of the land, [or] of the fruit of the tree, [is] the LORD'S: [it is] holy unto the LORD. 

Lev 27:32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, [even] of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD. 

Deu 12:17 Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the tithe of thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil, or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest, nor thy freewill offerings, or heave offering of thine hand: 

Mal. 3:8-10:
Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. 

Ye [are] cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, [even] this whole nation. 

Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that [there shall] not [be room] enough [to receive it]. 

And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts. 

And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts. 


New Testament:

The Lord Jesus said:
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: *these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.* 

Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: *these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. *

So the Lord Jesus was in effect, confirming and legitimizing the command of tithing, but actually requiring *more* in terms of character, love and mercy. 

There you have it, Old Testament and New Testament.  God's House is the place where the tithe and offering belongs.  But you can also feel free to give to other causes, as long as your obligation to God's House is covered. But don't play like God is going to bless you if you yank your support.

Now I know that recent events cause one to be weary of giving, but there was an example in 1 Samuel Chapter 2 of Eli's sons sleeping with the women and stealing the offering.  Long story short, God pronounced judgement on Eli and his sons and got rid of them.  But the system for offerings was undisturbed, unrevised. God knew what He was doing when He set it in place and established it!  

So we can't allow ourselves to justify disobedience and get into sin because of what we see. I personally do not want to deal with any consequences.  I don't care if the whole church world is cutting up! I am going to walk in the light that I have to the best of my ability! Because God has a belt for every body and He knows how and when to swing it!

One thing I can say, most ministers get a set salary from their churches, but their real income comes from the books they write. Others invest in businesses with their income. So I do not begrudge them their amenities because they earned it, and it is between them and the Lord what they use their earned money for.  He is faithful to keep them in check in His time.

So let us remain faithful! As Galatians 6:9  says, "And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not." Hang in there saints!


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## Southernbella. (Sep 10, 2007)

nissi said:


> Sorry saints! Tithing is mandated (a command) by Scripture both in the OT and NT:
> 
> Old Testament:
> 
> ...


 
Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees and teachers, who were still under Mosaic law, where tithing was mandated. Once Jesus died and was raised, and fulfilled the law, we were placed under grace. As Christians, we are nor longer under the law. If you believe we are still under law, you must practice all of them, and I know that none of us do.

Also, the tithe as it was practiced when it was mandated was for the widows and the poor, as well as for the Levitical priests (who are the only people who have the ability to collect the tithe, and there are none living today). There were several different tithes, each done in various seasons. Only those who had animals and produce could tithe, because God never accepted tithes in money. 

The Malachi scripture is often twisted, but if you look at it in context, God wasn't even speaking to the "congregation". He was speaking to the priests, because they weren't bringing the tithe into the storehouse. If we apply the scripture today, we would actually be directing it to the pastors, rather than the congregation.

As for God's house...the Bible tells us that the Lord no longer dwells in buildings made by human hands...He is in us, the believer. There are no more storehouses, because the temple system has been done away with. If there were still storehouses, they would be literal rooms in the temple where the grain and oil and wine would be taken, to be eaten later by the priests and the Israelites. Storehouses would NOT be church bank accounts.

Also, the Levitical priests weren't allowed to own land like other tribes. That is why they received _some_ of the tithe for themselves. Do pastors today own land? *It's very important to note that whenever the Lord spoke of the tithe and who was to receive it, that it was because they had no inheritance. This is mentioned several times...Deuteronomy 12:12; 14:27, 29; 18:1-2; Joshua 13:14, 33; 14:3; 18:7; and Ezekiel 44:28*

But the Bible says that all Christians have an inheritance through Christ.

ETA: It's not about being disobedient, it's about being set free! Nobody is condoning not giving. It's about knowing the truth and walking in the freedom that Christ has afforded us, through his death and fulfilment of the law, to give as Paul instructed, as it is purposed in our heart.


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## spelmanlocks (Sep 10, 2007)

I agree with Lauren450.  To me a church is not a holy place when the pastor is leading his/her congregation in the wrong way and the congregation blindly follows him/her. Also, we cannot be worshipping wood and bricks.  

For this reason, I would think its okay to give your money to a charity that you feel will do God's work.


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## cocoberry10 (Sep 10, 2007)

spelmanlocks said:


> I agree with Lauren450.  To me a church is not a holy place when the pastor is leading his/her congregation in the wrong way and the congregation blindly follows him/her. Also, we cannot be worshipping wood and bricks.
> 
> For this reason, I would think its okay to give your money to a charity that you feel will do God's work.



I agree with this too!  God blesses a CHEERFUL GIVER.  So it’s the giving He is mostly concerned with.  This doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t give to a church.  I agree with RR’s assessment of giving where you feel “fed,” but I also don’t think that He won’t be okay with you giving where there’s a need.  I mean, it makes sense to give where there’s a need, not where the pastor is concerned with how many vacation homes he has!


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## Chyna Red (Sep 10, 2007)

As far as tithing goes, what does it matter what the pastor/preacher does with your tithes? I used to struggle with the same thing. My mother and aunt used to send money to those TV evangelists faithfully and then I would see some expose' about how they are using the money to buy houses, cars, trips, etc. I would encourage them not to send any more money in (they never listened) but I thought they were being so stupid until I realized that whatever the pastor decides to do with the money has no affect on their blessing. As long as your are doing what you are supposed to do, giving your tithes and offerings, God knows your heart. The pastor can then take the money and use it to grow some weed, fly in 300 strippers and then smoke it up with them  and that will still have no affect on you. That is between him and God just like tithing is between you and God. You can't spend time checking up on the preacher to see if he really used those tithes for the building fund or whether it financed the latest vacation and Rolls for him and his wife . Now if you are giving and you know that your preacher is up to no good, then you should have already  found a new church home anyway. I give and trust that what I am giving is being used the way it should be used, if it's not, God knows and it is for God to deal with the pastor.  Hopefully your pastors and preachers are giving their tithes and offerings as well and receiving 100 fold back on their givings.  (maybe the return on their giving is financing some of those big purchases since God delights in the prosperity of his servants)

I also agree with those who said that tithing is mandated for today just as it was in the Old Testament. Tithing is one of  those things like speaking in tongues, you can go back and forth forever debating about whether or not it was meant for today. It's pointless because people can and will always interpret the scripture to suit their lifestyle and beliefs. Thats a revelation that some people will need to come into on their own. I don't tithe faithfully but I know that I need to start. When I did,I definitely noticed a difference in my finances.


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## nissi (Sep 10, 2007)

lauren450 said:


> Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees and teachers, who were still under Mosaic law, where tithing was mandated. Once Jesus died and was raised, and fulfilled the law, we were placed under grace. As Christians, we are nor longer under the law. If you believe we are still under law, you must practice all of them, and I know that none of us do.
> 
> Also, the tithe as it was practiced when it was mandated was for the widows and the poor, as well as for the Levitical priests (who are the only people who have the ability to collect the tithe, and there are none living today). There were several different tithes, each done in various seasons. Only those who had animals and produce could tithe, because God never accepted tithes in money.
> 
> ...




*Mat 5:17:* Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to *fulfil. * 

I should qualify and say that tithing is actually the bare minimum, because in the New Testament in 1 Cor. 16:2, we are to give "as God has prospered us," which undoubtedly is more than 10%.  God in instituting and establishing the tithe was very generous!  He gives us everything and simply specifies that minimum amount. He actually provides man with 90% to do as he wishes! What a wonderful Father!

When Jesus lays down command, whether to Pharisees or to publicans, it is something that we must regard as command to "New Testament believers under grace," for those who choose to authorize that thinking. But if that is not enough, we really should then look at the communties of believers in the New Testament.  Paul specifically referred to collections being made, for specific communities of faith that he had established and he made arrangements, i.e., within the Philippian church with Epaphroditus, and then with Titus and the church at Corinth for collections to be made.  Of course at the church at Jerusalem, the whole matter of offerings collected was administrated by the Apostle Peter (including the infamous Ananias and Sapphira incident).  So collections and support of the house of God or community of believers is a biblical, legitimate, required practice.

Also, the church at Jerusalem took care of the widows, orphans and giving to the poor through the establishment of the diaconate (deacons) in Acts Chapter 6. I do acknowledge in many churches the purpose of the deaconry has departed from its original biblical purpose, but it still has original biblical purpose.

Of course the Church is not material, but we are the Church. And as we are fed and ministered to, we must cover the expenses of the community of faith, which is the whole stream of thought throughout the Old and New Testament narratives concerning giving and tithing.  Light bills, gas bills, and operating expenses must be covered and the Lord makes provision for that in tithing and giving.

In a parallel analogy, in one's house, if we all live here and benefit from being here, we have to contribute to the comfort and expenses of being here, unless of course we are a guest.  But if we expect to be here in comfort, we must contribute.

As a matter of fact, we are also to be a blessing to our leaders!
Gal 6:6-7: Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.  Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 

1Cr 9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
1Cr 9:13  Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live [of the things] of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? 
1Cr 9:14  Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel. 
*Read on through the whole chapter for Paul's treatise on ministerial support, even though because he knew the heart of man, he didn't do it. *

1Ti 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer [is] worthy of his reward.  [Read on in the chapter.]

The Lord Jesus Himself answers the mindset that because we are under grace we can ignore the law when He said that the Law is *fulfilled* in Him:  
*Mat 5:17:* Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 

He did not say that the Law is negated, destroyed or superceded in Him, but fulfilled.  So as we walk in Christ through faith by the power of the Holy Ghost, we can obey whatever the Word commands.  In obedience to Christ's command, which is fulfilled in love, we can, by walking in the Spirit (See Galatians 5-6), fulfill God's commands.  

I reiterate that individuals should give to charities to their hearts content.  But their spiritual responsibility remains.


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## sonsireegemini (Sep 10, 2007)

lauren450 said:


> Tithing is not mandated. As Christians, we are not under the law, but under grace. Our instructions are clear...we are to give cheerfully, not under compulsion (which is what a mandated 10% is), and we are to give according to what God has placed in our hearts. Whether that is 10%, 5%, or 30%, it's up to each believer.
> 
> I also agree with you that it is disappointing to see what is going on in some churches. It's unbelievable that some churches pay close to a million dollars a month for their light bills when there are communities around them that are dying financially. There was an article in the AJC talking about home foreclosures, and it blew my mind that the two counties with the most foreclosures in the entire state happened to be the counties that hold the two biggest megachurches in the state. Something is wrong.
> 
> ...


 

Amen!  I have been struggling as well with paying tithes when my church because I felt it was not going to what the bible has mandated us to do, which is to take care of the poor, orphaned and widowed. I have been saved for 2 years and have been tossing and turning over this.  Only for the simple fact that my church doesn't open their accounting books to let the people know what they are doing with the money that is received.  On top of that they (the pastor's wife) makes statments from off the pulpit to make it seem like people are being disobeint  Your post has made so much sense to me.  Thank you


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## DeepBluSea (Sep 10, 2007)

I just wanted to say that this is a very good discussion.   My family has been struggling with the same issues.   Thanks to the OP for starting this topic.

Whenever I try to have this discussion with people in the church, I get the run around.   I dunno.   My heart just doesn't feel right supporting a church for the sake of supporting it.   I have heard the sentiment that we shouldn't be worried about what the church does with the money after we have given it in good faith, but it just doesn't sit right with me.  Doesn't that make us party to the dishonesty (if it is going on)?   I also don't understand the megachurch thing.   What good is a big church to reach the people in tv land but not reaching the people living a block from the church?   I ask this in all sincerity.   I would love to raise my kids in church, but we are having a hard time finding one not concerned with raising money.  Seriously.


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## Southernbella. (Sep 10, 2007)

nissi said:


> *Mat 5:17:* Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to *fulfil. *
> 
> I should qualify and say that tithing is actually the bare minimum, because in the New Testament in 1 Cor. 16:2, we are to give "as God has prospered us," which undoubtedly is more than 10%. God in instituting and establishing the tithe was very generous! He gives us everything and simply specifies that minimum amount. He actually provides man with 90% to do as he wishes! What a wonderful Father!
> 
> ...


 
So you do believe we are still under the law? If so, do you practice ALL of the Mosaic laws, or just tithing?

Furthermore, supporting the ministry does not have to equate to tithing. Giving, as Christians ARE commanded to do, could support the ministry just fine. Why make tithing a mandate, when we aren't under law to do so? 

_Let's say we are still under law to tithe, as the Lord commanded it. We would actually be tithing 3 different times. It would look like this:_

*First tithe*:

Numbers 18

This was given for the Levitical inheritance. This is the tithe that supported the priests*, and it was a yearly tithe.

*The priests actually received a tenth of the tithe for themselves.

*Second tithe*: 

Deuteronomy 12:1-19 and 14:22-26 

This was the yearly festival, where the other Israelites and their families brought the tithes and then ate from it. This was a celebration. 

*Third tithe*:

Deuteronomy 14:28-29 and 26:12-13

This was specifically for all of the poor and needy, even those who weren't Israelites. This tithe was not to go to the storehouse; it stayed in the town. This was done every third year.


These were three separate and distinct tithes. Why aren't we practicing these correctly, if we are under the law to do so? Is it pleasing to God that we are doing it wrong? Why are church leaders only practicing the first tithe, but ignoring the second two, which give tithes to others? 

If you truly believe we are mandated to tithe, please explain why we are doing it wrong. Thanks!


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## thegirltolove (Sep 10, 2007)

lauren450 said:


> In the New Testament, tithing is only mentioned in relation to the people who were still under Mosaic Law. Jesus came to fulfill the law...we are now under grace.
> 
> * Paul clearly says to Christians that we are give what is purposed in our heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion. 10% is never mentioned anywhere.*
> 
> If you really look at tithing from a biblical perspective, what is practiced today isn't even tithing. I won't go into it here, but tithing as it is done now is a church tradition. But don't feel confused. If God places it on your heart to give 10%, then that is great!




The 10% actually came from the word tithe because that is what tithe means. 

 Definition:

[SIZE=-1][/SIZE][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]
exact a tithe from; "The church was tithed"
levy a tithe on (produce or a crop); "The wool was tithed"
a levy of one tenth of something
pay one tenth of; pay tithes on, especially to the church; "He tithed his income to the Church"
pay a tenth of one's income, especially to the church; "Although she left the church officially, she still tithes"
an offering of a tenth part of some personal income[/SIZE]
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]-A tithe (from Old English teogotha "tenth") is a one-tenth part of something, paid as a voluntary contribution or as a tax or levy, usually to support a religious organization. Today, tithes (or tithing) are normally voluntary and paid in cash, checks, or stocks, whereas historically tithes could be paid in kind, such as agricultural products. There are still European countries today that allow some churches to assess a mandatory tithe which is enforced by law.

[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]-The practice of giving one-tenth of one’s gross income, based in Holy Scripture and affirmed by the Episcopal Church as the standard of faithful giving or pledging for all its members.[/SIZE]


 If it is not 10% then it is not technically a tithe. That's my 2 cents....


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## Southernbella. (Sep 10, 2007)

thegirltolove said:


> The 10% actually came from the word tithe because that is what tithe means.
> 
> Definition:
> 
> ...


 
I know what tithe means, I meant that "tithing", the principle, is never mentioned in regards to Christians.


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## thegirltolove (Sep 10, 2007)

lauren450 said:


> I know what tithe means, I meant that "tithing", the principle, is never mentioned in regards to Christians.




I was responding to the part where you said that 10% is never mentioned anywhere. Just kinda seemed to me like it is mentioned in the origin of the word.


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## Southernbella. (Sep 10, 2007)

thegirltolove said:


> I was responding to the part where you said that 10% is never mentioned anywhere. Just kinda seemed to me like it is mentioned in the origin of the word.


 
I meant that 10% is never mentioned relating to free-will giving in the New Testament. I'll correct.


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## nissi (Sep 10, 2007)

Again, tithing is an established minimum! Really being under grace, we should be giving at least 50%! (Whew!) I personally thank God He doesn't put that burden on us!

God provided a construct that serves both specifically and generally.  It is definitely applicable to our lifestyles today.  So particularly for the Nation of Israel, especially to provide governmental structure for their lifestyles, He specified certain times of the year, etc. Just like the Tabernacle, which the Bible said was a type and shadow that pointed to Christ! He is our Tabernacle!

I can only go by what is revealed in Scripture, but looking at the entire theology of the Bible, this is what is revealed concerning the Law:

1. Christ fulfills the Law (Mt. 5:6). So there was a need for it to be fulfilled.  So thank God, He fulfills it! Yet He also informs us that He does not come to destroy it!  So we cannot do away with it completely either.

2. We fulfill the Law when we walk in love (Ro. 13:8).  Jesus said it, Romans says it, Galatians says it. Love is the basis of the Law. 

3. We fulfill the Law when we walk in the Spirit. As we walk in the Spirit, the Apostle Paul tells us, against such there is no law (Gal. 5:22-23).

4. The Law was a "schoolmaster" or a tutor (Gal. 3) to lead us to faith in Christ!  But the principles were not to be discarded or in Christ's words "destroyed".  They simply are not the basis of salvation, but faith.

5. The Law has no power to save us, because we cannot keep it. Hebrews says it was given to reveal our sin. Because there is a way that seemeth right to man, but it ends in death (Pr. 16:25).  The Law puts everyone on common ground, notice and understanding as a light (Psalm 19).

Law and Grace are not odds; one provided a foundation to lead us to the next. Essentially as we walk in Christ through the power of the Holy Ghost, the fulfillment of the Law is included in the "benefits package."  

So my keeping of the Law is fulfilled in the Lord Christ.  Whatever light i have received, i strive to walk in it.  

ETA: I have a dance class, but i will come back to respond!



lauren450 said:


> So you do believe we are still under the law? If so, do you practice ALL of the Mosaic laws, or just tithing?
> 
> Furthermore, supporting the ministry does not have to equate to tithing. Giving, as Christians ARE commanded to do, could support the ministry just fine. Why make tithing a mandate, when we aren't under law to do so?
> 
> ...


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## thegirltolove (Sep 10, 2007)

lauren450 said:


> I meant that 10% is never mentioned relating to free-will giving in the New Testament. I'll correct.



Ok...my bad. I guess I was confused. Don't mind me.....


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## Mizani_Mrs (Sep 10, 2007)

WOW thank you all so very much for taking the time to post your responses and provide scripture.  I will take my time reading these responses and seek guidance from the Lord.   

Just another point from me...It's not really MY church...it's ALL churches.   Or the large majority, i should say.    Its the normalcy of rich or well-off pastors and board of directors and rich churches.   And I only hear of a minor project here or there that the church is supporting.  I always cringe and think...its nice yall doing that, but is that all????    All of these misguided preteen/teen kids running around with no direction or no one ttrying to divert their attention from 50cent and the latest bootyshaking video/song....It just doesnt sit well with me.  These are young impressionable souls that we can EASILY win over, but it would be at a financial expense as opposed to a gain, (because teens dont have jobs and dont tithe).    Just think about how rich our community would be if all churches chipped in to support a community center that taught things that schools left out and deprogrammed them from what they see on BET.  Wow!   ok sorry, i guess i'm very radical with my thinking.   

I'll have to pray about it and find out if i should continue church tithing or find some worthy cause that I feel is helping the poor and enriching my community.


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## PaperClip (Sep 10, 2007)

Mizani_Mrs said:


> WOW thank you all so very much for taking the time to post your responses and provide scripture. I will take my time reading these responses and seek guidance from the Lord.
> 
> Just another point from me...It's not really MY church...it's ALL churches. Or the large majority, i should say. Its the normalcy of rich or well-off pastors and board of directors and rich churches. And I only hear of a minor project here or there that the church is supporting. I always cringe and think...its nice yall doing that, but is that all???? All of these misguided preteen/teen kids running around with no direction or no one ttrying to divert their attention from 50cent and the latest bootyshaking video/song....It just doesnt sit well with me. These are young impressionable souls that we can EASILY win over, but it would be at a financial expense as opposed to a gain, (because teens dont have jobs and dont tithe). Just think about how rich our community would be if all churches chipped in to support a community center that taught things that schools left out and deprogrammed them from what they see on BET. Wow! ok sorry, i guess i'm very radical with my thinking.
> 
> I'll have to pray about it and find out if i should continue church tithing or find some worthy cause that I feel is helping the poor and enriching my community.


 
I empathize with your inner conflict...as I have at times...but the Lord brings me back to what He impressed upon my heart when I was a teenager concerning tithing. And at my childhood church back in the day, the environment concerning money, the church, the so-called prosperity movement was not as...how can I say...intense as it is now....

He impressed upon me to tithe, as an act of obedience to Him, giving unto Him, that I've done what I'm supposed to do.... I can emphatically say that tithing to my local church, where I am being spiritually fed, has not failed me because God has not failed me. Like someone else said, donating, tithing to other causes is noble and needed, but, IMHO, this does not REPLACE the tithe to the local body....

Per your concerns about today's teenagers, I hear you.... I just said to somebody last week about how it seems the girls come to church dressed in ANYTHING.... When I was coming up, we had to wear dresses and come to church "respectable".... In other words, parents were INVOLVED in their children's lives and did not forsake their responsibilities, expecting the church to do EVERYTHING. The church can't do or be everything to everyone. And, the church could be doing all that they're supposed to do but if the parents are not following up at home, then the church work is basically of none effect, if not for the grace and mercy of the Lord....

It's not necessarily radical thinking, it's definitely reasonable, and churches definitely have room to improve.... 

How about this: as you feel so strongly about these issues, how about YOU start something at your local church to address these issues. Draw up a proposal, present it to the leadership and see what happens. The Bible says the harvest is ripe but the laborers are few (Luke 10:2).


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## Mizani_Mrs (Sep 10, 2007)

EEEEEEEKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!  LOL lol.  Yes RelaxrR you are right.  I feel this can be in my future.  I feel my heart hurts so bad for black america and what we do to ourselves, that i can see myself becoming a community leader.  I pray God gives me direction and remove fear from my heart, if it is His will....






RelaxerRehab said:


> How about this: as you feel so strongly about these issues,* how about YOU start something at your local church to address these issues. Draw up a proposal, present it to the leadership and see what happens. The Bible says the harvest is ripe but the laborers are few (Luke 10:2*).


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## Honey6928215 (Sep 10, 2007)

Girl, you must have read my mind.  Especially about a certain church.  I'll pm you about it.


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## naijamerican (Sep 11, 2007)

I just wanted to express that this is an excellent and timely thread, as well as very thought-provoking. It is also spiritually edifying. Thank you all very much!

MizaniMrs, I felt the same way a couple of years ago and did not even tithe at all. What made me return to it is due, in large part, to what RelaxerRehab pointed out. I do not tithe to fill the pockets of my pastor and his wife. I tithe as a sacrifice to God. 

I have to tell you that a couple of weeks ago, I was looking at my bank account and feeling very stressed out because I am a student and my fellowship was ending at the end of that week. But I saw that I had set aside a special account for a missions contribution. I contemplated using that money for myself and figured that God wouldn't mind. However, I remembered that I had pledged to God that I would give that money, so I paypalled it in.

A couple of hours later, I found out that I got a research grant that would cover the rest of my expenses for the next half of my doctoral program! The same coverage I had had before - tuition, stipend, and health/dental insurance - as well as money for research expenses (even to get a new computer!) will be provided by NIH!

Do I think that I got it because I sacrificed to God? Honestly, no, because the decision was made before I found out about it. But the TIMING of me finding out is something that I know comes from God. He encouraged me the very day that I had sacrificed a fair sum of money to Him, which He himself prompted me to do.

Yes, at times I worry how my money will be spent. But I trust that God sees my heart and that He will bless me.

Besides - in the Old Testament days, they would sacrifice lambs, which were a form of currency just as money is to us today. And you know that those lambs were killed and burned to a crisp! But the Jews still had to sacrifice, even as they watched their sacrifice literally go up in smoke, because it's the heart of gratitude and a heart that acknowledges that all comes from God, that He wanted to cultivate in His people. I believe that the same holds true today. We don't know where it will all go, but we can be sure that God sees everything. And one day, those who abuse the sacrifices of God will be called to account. 

I hope that what I have shared helps you all as much as you all have helped me! 
:blowkiss:


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## PaperClip (Sep 11, 2007)

naijamerican said:


> I just wanted to express that this is an excellent and timely thread, as well as very thought-provoking. It is also spiritually edifying. Thank you all very much!
> 
> MizaniMrs, I felt the same way a couple of years ago and did not even tithe at all. What made me return to it is due, in large part, to what RelaxerRehab pointed out. I do not tithe to fill the pockets of my pastor and his wife. I tithe as a sacrifice to God.
> 
> ...


Hallelujah!!!!!!!!!!!


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## deltagyrl (Sep 12, 2007)

Interesting thread.

Honestly I struggle greatly with the entire concept of "church" mainly because of the hypocrisy and greed.

Over the years I've been fanatical about Christ, atheistic and anything else you can think of in between.

I do now have an awesome personal relationship with God but church and church people ? I could do without all of that. 

That being said I don't ever see myself tithing at anyone's church in this millenium. I sow into those around me and, I believe, that is pleasing to God.


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## napgurl (Sep 12, 2007)

Well I was going to World Changers Church International.  No matter what we consistently tithed and God consistently bless us over and over.  It was my obedience.  However . . . in the beginning of the church we were seriously studying word, word, word.  But when we moved into our new building all the pastor talked about was money (money cometh now) all the time. I know money wasn't the answer to every situation. I have no problems believing God for wealth . . . but I missed our original teachings.  

I left in search of getting that teaching else where so far nothing comes close.  I attend church but for my main teaching I listen tapes.


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## Energee (Sep 12, 2007)

StrawberryQueen said:


> *IMO* (not based off of anything in the Bible, just how I feel) I believe that money/time can be given to different areas outside of the church that contribute to the Lords kingdom.  Like giving to a women's or children's charity, donating books, giving your time (which is much more precious than any money).  Or giving to organizations that build churches, or giving directly to someone.
> 
> *IMO*-it's the giving that counts, not the percentage or where.



Thank you! This is exactly how my husband and I feel.  We'd rather give our 10% (and we probably give more) to actual programs and charities that benefit communities needing the assistance rather than giving it to a church that is not helping anyone and only lining their pockets.  Most of these churches are a joke these days really and they have a lot of blind followers.  Go with your heart..and if it doesn't feel right (that's God speaking to you)..don't give it. Give where you feel your money and/or time will be best put to use.


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