# PREPARE TO MEET YOUR GOD!!



## bambieg (Apr 26, 2011)

Ok so since I've been home my mother has be trying to get me to listen to this audio that they played at her church. This is basically a story of a girl who died and came back to life. She went to hell then heaven and is now giving her testimony. 

You can either read the text or listen. 

http://www.divinerevelations.info/Documents/Prepare_to_meet_your_God/index.htm


I would love to know your thoughts and would hope you guys will spread the word.


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## Coffee (Apr 26, 2011)

I just finished reading it. Very interesting, but there will still be folks who won't believe it.


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## bambieg (Apr 26, 2011)

I completely agree. I have already had people accept it fully and other who cant conceive the possibility. When I was in high school my mother purchased a book called The Divine Revelation of hell the lady had a very similar experience and description of hell.


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## ThatJerseyGirl (Apr 29, 2011)

bambieg - i read the 23 page report.  in fact, i've read this before. not the same exact report, but from different people saying the same things, so i believe these things to be true.  one thing for certain, there is power in the Word of God and I believe HE speaks to us using various methods, reading being one of them.  

when i read this, i felt as if HE were talking to me. it was meant for me to read this and i already know why.


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## Prudent1 (Apr 29, 2011)

Thanks for sharing OP. I will check it out this weekend.


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## Guitarhero (Apr 29, 2011)

I believe that hell is real, however, the L-rd's admonition to each of us is to amend our own personal lives and to lead our families to G-d as well as share the gospel.  I don't believe for a second He would tell this girl that Selena and Pope John Paul II are in hell. 

*He would not offer reality; would not say that hell is real and that heaven also exists;* Daughter, now he is here in this place." 

They might as well put in the apostles, Elijah, Moses, the Virgin Mary, Noah, and all of everyone here.  How would you know?  Shrugs.  He didn't preach salvation?  I can't tell you how laughable that is.  What on earth is the Eucharist then?  Why do we confess our sins and read from scripture at every mass?   I'm sorry, but this doesn't add up and sounds more like yet another conversion attempt targeted at a specific audience. Artists, singers, popes...all going to hell?  What about the garbage men and bakers and everybody else? We are to amend OUR OWN lives.

So, my question is this...what is the question everyone has?  That hell is real or that she actually did experience this and that what she tells is the truth?


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## mrselle (Apr 29, 2011)

Thank you for posting this.  This has touched me in a way I can't begin to describe.


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## bambieg (Apr 29, 2011)

Please spread the word.


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## Rainbow Dash (Apr 29, 2011)

This is a POWERFUL Testimony. I believe it. It lines up with the Word of God. I am sending this to others. I'm getting back into fasting and more prayer. I am sharing the gospel even the more. 

*It is time to awake out of our sleep and go forth as the Lord has commanded.*

Also look at the the signs of the times. Our salvation is near. 

Thanks for sharing this.


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## makeupgirl (Apr 30, 2011)

I saw this on the christianforums.com board and I'm going to be honest, I don't believe this girl.  So, let me explain why:

First of all, this girl did not die for 23 hrs, if she is living now. The bible is clear in *Heb 9:27 “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”*

Plus, if you're kid is dead or if you think they are dead at that moment, you're going to automatically call someone for help, not wait to see if they wake up 24 hrs.  Pul-lease!!!!! 

It's by grace through faith that we're saved, not by works, not of ourselves, least any man should boast (paraphrasing because I don't have my bible opened and doing homework at the same time) which is written in Eph 2:8-9

So, I seriously doubt that Jesus would contradict himself by telling her that people was sent to hell because they chose not to forgive, the kids chose to watch cartoons, people chose to watch or listen to this or that, not fasting, or passing out tracts.  Plus, it's not just about repenting when one come to a saving knowledge, it's believing, confessing, and receiving.  

*"If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (Romans 10:9-10)*

*"Verily, Verily, I say unto you; Except a man be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of God" John 3:3*

*"I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me" (John 14:6) *

I watch cartoons, Power Rangers (the oldies), iCarly, Phineas and Ferb, soap operas and I don't fast (I'm diabetic, I'm not allowed to) and sometimes I don't pass out tracts (I have them in my handbag, I just forget it's there) does this mean I"m going to hell? 

If someone goes to hell, it's because they rejected Christ.  How they have rejected Christ? Simple, they chose not to believe that he is God Almighty, or that he died for the sins of mankind or that he was buried, or that he rosed again.  

Those, however, who did chose Jesus and received him, then we know that we were saved by grace and accepted the free gift of salvation full and free.  We can't earn it, work it, buy it.  We all were born into sin, meaning we were born spiritually dead and spiritually separated from God.  Once you have accepted Christ, you are made alive, you will live eternal life with God, you receive the comforter - the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  

I'm not trying to be harsh but I've learned not to sugar coat either especially when it comes to souls being saved and also when it comes to the word of God.  

Read the bible for yourself and quick listening to man's doctrine.  That is what this girl vision or whatever is.  It's not scriptural.  (some stuff was however, it cancels out because not everything was)  The bible is infallable, it doesn't need or want anyone elses help in adding or taking away from it and there is a verse in Revelation that say don't take or add to and from the bible.  

Want to play with God?  That's between you and him, and I seriously doubt you'll be able to say what the outcome of that will be.  But there are people who geniunely (I miss my mozilla firefox) want to know how to get to heaven, how to receive eternal life and more important, they want to know who Jesus is and why he died for us.  

Personally for me, I'm not mad or angry and I'm not judging anyone that has read this or has taken it at face value but I am mad and furious at the fact that false prophets are succeeding with their interpretation of their false doctrine and trying to pass if off as scriptural.  It's not right and not fair.  Which is probably why Christ wants his disciples (and if you have accepted Christ, you are apart of the body of Christ) to go out and spread the gospel.  Let's not sugar coat it, let us let the unbelievers and those who truly have never heard about Christ to introduce truthfully and in accordinance to his word. It's by the sheding of Jesus' blood we are saved and death, hell, and the grave was conquered upon his resurrection.  And as we speak, he is at the right hand of the Father, interceeding for us and rooting for us.  He just asks that we believe it and receive it, and to share it truthfully.  

Also at the parts about the rapture and those who are in Christ being left behind.  Wrong. What part of we're not appointed to wrath is one not understanding...which is written in 1 Thes 1:10, 1 Thes 5:9) If you're in Christ, you're not going to be left behind when the rapture comes. In thing that says otherwise, is a slap in the face to God.  Twisting and rewriting and trying to understand this infallable book by your own understanding.  Yeah, how is that working for you?  

Does hell exist? Yes, it says so in the bible.  That is our proof right there and the example that Christ gave with Lazarus and the rich dude in Luke. 

So, if my response has offended someone, I'm sorry but I rather face the wrath of man, then go before my Heavenly Father and give an account of why I chose to follow a false doctrine and why I didn't tell people that this is against his word.   

At the end of the day, I'll probably get cussed out, ridicle, told I'm wrong, mocked, I don't care but when the word of God gets twisted the way it has been, I'm speaking.  It's not about me or anyone, it's about leading the lost to Christ.  But can we give them the truth as to why straight out the bible, instead of given them the movie/tv storyline version (I've seen something similiar on Xena or something once that almost matches this girl's "dream" exactly)


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## bambieg (Apr 30, 2011)

makeupgirl said:


> I saw this on the christianforums.com board and I'm going to be honest, I don't believe this girl.  So, let me explain why:
> 
> First of all, this girl did not die for 23 hrs, if she is living now. The bible is clear in *Heb 9:27 “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”*
> 
> ...









          No need to take it personal. If you feel like this message is for you, then take it, if not disregard the message. I do not believe that his girl is trying to pass her message on as a scripture and incorporate it into the bible. I think she is just giving her testimony. As for the false prophets you mentioned, yes there are false prophets, in Christianity but I think about it more as these false religions out there that are pulling people away from the Him and his word.

  I am not here to judge what this girl has testified about but I do believe what the girl has written about. Now if look at the old testament, God sent many prophets to the Israelites to tell them to repent and come back to God and as you know they did not listen. I don’t want to be one of those people whom God tells I sent you a prophet and you did not listen! God will judge her and her testimony and she will be held accountable. “Don’t not judge and you will not be judged, Do not condemn and you will not be condemned…” Luke 6:37

  I do believe this died. The girl was told she would die and be brought back to testify. Just as Lazarus was dead for 4 days and brought back to life, she too was also brought back to life. You do a search of many people around the world dying and coming back to life or dying and going to heaven or hell. It’s not just this girl, its many people around the world.

  I’ve always wondered what the bible would said if it was written up to present day but it’s not. I am pretty sure that the same God that sent prophets back in the day is still sending prophets to his people now and are they are failing to hear his voice. Now I do agree that Jesus is the way but I think this is the first step; after you accept Jesus Christ as your saviour, there is still more that you have to do. If you accept Jesus, I believe you should accept his teachings as well.  “If you love me, you will obey what I command” John 14:15 And that includes forgiveness “For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins” Mathew 6:14-15.

  I think we should not focus on the little details in her testimony and find ways to retort it but look at the message she is trying to get across. I think Jesus wants us to repent and turn from our ways and preach the message to others so I am just spreading the word.


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## Rainbow Dash (Apr 30, 2011)

makeupgirl said:


> I saw this on the christianforums.com board and I'm going to be honest, I don't believe this girl. So, let me explain why:
> 
> First of all, this girl did not die for 23 hrs, if she is living now. The bible is clear in *Heb 9:27 “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”*
> 
> ...


 

makeupgirl 

At the bolded. Unforgiveness will cause you to miss the kingdom. It is scriptural so that is not a contradiction.

*Matthew 6:5  But if you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses*

Also the cartoons did not send them to hell but the message behind them is satanic and breeds rebellion the rebellion to his parents is what sent him to hell.

*Ephesians 6:1  Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.*

The lack of prayer, fastings, witnessing, and tracts did not send them to hell. It is the lack of drive by us, the saints not doing what Christ commanded so that people can hear and know Him. 

*Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.*

This is from Christ.  
*Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, *


Just because someone confesses Christ does not mean their heart is for Christ.

*Matthew 15:8 These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.*

You are right people go to hell because they reject Christ. You can reject Christ by the way you live. Your confession should line up with your life.


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## Rainbow Dash (Apr 30, 2011)

bambieg said:


> I think we should not focus on the little details in her testimony and find ways to retort it but look at the message she is trying to get across. *I think Jesus wants us to repent and turn from our ways and preach the message to others so I am just spreading the word*.


 

^^This is what I took from the message. ^^That is the message of the cross, salvation through Christ alone.


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## Guitarhero (Apr 30, 2011)

makeupgirl said:


> I saw this on the christianforums.com board and I'm going to be honest, I don't believe this girl.  So, let me explain why:
> 
> First of all, this girl did not die for 23 hrs, if she is living now. The bible is clear in *Heb 9:27 “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”*




I didn't believe her either.  Too many exceptions on mercy for the hell-bound.  It's there, you confess your sins, you move on.  That's it.  I don't know why people think it's rocket science.  Maybe they don't believe in G-d's mercy?  If He said He'll forgive but you keep coming up with excuses as to why you don't believe He does...  And another thing, this judgment against everyone else just for being xyz.  It just sounds so hmmmm....  Now we all know hell is real, but so is His mercy.  But for 23 hours, I don't know in and of itself, Jesus raised Lazarus and he had been dead for several days.



bambieg said:


> If you accept Jesus,* I believe you should  accept his teachings as well. * “If you love me, you will obey what I  command” John 14:15 And that includes forgiveness “For if you forgive  men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive  you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not  forgive your sins” Mathew 6:14-15.
> 
> *I think we should not focus on the little details in her testimony and  find ways to retort it but look at the message she is trying to get  across.* I think Jesus wants us to repent and turn from our ways and  preach the message to others so I am just spreading the word.



Being catholic, we do obey Him, directly.  Also being catholic, we have many such encounters and experiences to glean from.  They are all over the place and the ones that are proven truth by the Church (a long process of testing against scripture and outcomes in the community etc.) and declared thusly do not carry a little of truth and  a whole lotta "possible."  The entire message is truth, not just little bits we need to focus on.  I think that's one of the parts of it that stood out to me...obviously, the biggest one was the huge insult on a man whose life was public record for decades and who is being beatified tomorrow.  All I can say is that I hope to be able to be 1/16th as holy and obedient as JPII has been in his earthly life.

Op, please don't take it personally as an attack against you.  That so-called testimony is troubling and you did ask for our opinions, which we're giving.  Please do not think of it as my being against you personally nor your religion.  I believe she experienced something but whether she truly heard from Jesus, I do not know.  I don't believe it for the reasons stated concerning G-d's mercy, imho.


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## Guitarhero (Apr 30, 2011)

makeupgirl said:


> It's by grace through faith that we're saved, not by works, not of ourselves, least any man should boast (paraphrasing because I don't have my bible opened and doing homework at the same time) which is written in Eph 2:8-9
> 
> So, I seriously doubt that Jesus would contradict himself by telling her that people was sent to hell because they chose not to forgive, the kids chose to watch cartoons, people chose to watch or listen to this or that, not fasting, or passing out tracts.  Plus, it's not just about repenting when one come to a saving knowledge, it's believing, confessing, and receiving.
> 
> ...




I agree.  At the risk of bringing in Poohbear's question (why do we keep sinning...it should cease 100% or we don't know G-d...basically), this is what it reminded me of.  And this is probably one of the many reasons she is struggling with that.  When you read accounts spouted off as "truth" but they are not the biblical truth, then you spread confusion.  I haven't read the part of the rapture in that...stopped at JPII...that insulting bit of nonsense.    But I'll go back in.  Works are part of the package in the way that we demonstrate our repentance.  But they alone do not save.


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## makeupgirl (Apr 30, 2011)

Health&hair28 said:


> @makeupgirl
> 
> At the bolded. Unforgiveness will cause you to miss the kingdom. It is scriptural so that is not a contradiction.
> 
> ...


 
Then what is the point of salvation being a free gift?  What's the point of 1 John 1:9?  What's the point of Gal 5:16-17?  Our confession of our faith should line up only with what Jesus has told us to do in order to receive eternal life, which is to believe that Jesus died on the cross, was resurrected according to the scriptures.  

We are still going to sin because of our born sinful nature.  Yes, we are no longer in sin but the flesh is still active and fighting the Spirit of God in us for control.  Which is why the one you feed is the one that is strong.  If a believer has decided not to read the bible in a month, missed church, has started cussing again, watched porn and do everything under the sin against God; then they don't lose sonship, but they are out of the will of God and need to confess that sin and get right with God. 

Paul told the church of Galatia to be filled with the Holy Spirit and ye shall not fulfilled the lust of the flesh.  For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit; and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary one to the other, so that ye cannot do the things that ye would (Gal 5:16-17)

John told us in 1 John 1:5-9 speaks volumes about saying if we say we do not sin or have not sinned.  John said we decieve ourselves and the truth is not in us.  He also says if one says they have fellowship with God and walk in darkness (declaring themselves Christian but have never trusted and received Christ as their Lord and Savior) then we lie and do not the truth.  

The blood of Jesus continously cleanses the body from unrighteousness when we confess that sin we have committed.  Everyone's sins is nailed to the cross.  So, when Jesus died on the cross, he died for past, present, and future sins of all mankind.  

So, one can still be a born again believer and not go to church, tithe, spread the gospel, etc and still go to heaven.  They will still stand before Jesus at the judgment seat of Christ and give an account of what they have done in the body for Jesus upon salvation.  They won't lose their salvation, they will lose their reward.  (1 Cor 3)


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## makeupgirl (Apr 30, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> I agree. At the risk of bringing in Poohbear's question (why do we keep sinning...it should cease 100% or we don't know G-d...basically), this is what it reminded me of. And this is probably one of the many reasons she is struggling with that. When you read accounts spouted off as "truth" but they are not the biblical truth, then you spread confusion. I haven't read the part of the rapture in that...stopped at JPII...that insulting bit of nonsense.  But I'll go back in. Works are part of the package in the way that we demonstrate our repentance. But they alone do not save.


 
Its the flesh.  Have you ever wonder in certain situations why a bad word comes to mind or wondered why it's so easy to sin?  Even though, we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit upon salvation, we are still flesh via the sinful nature from our human birth.  We're spiritual alive in Christ because of our relationship with him but that flesh still is going to rise up and try to take control.  That's why Paul tells us to be filled with the Holy Spirit, to pray without ceasing, to grieve not the Holy Spirit.  We got to surrender our complete self to the Holy Spirit or we'll sin like there is no tomorrow.  

The teenager's account was confusion and it was confusing to me because it wasn't scriptural.  If God has a hand in anything we do, it's going to be in line with his scriptures, not against it and every single word is going to be true.  Not some here and there.  

I'm telling yall, Satan knows his time almost up and he's working Overtime to steal, kill, and destroy.  And what better way to do it then to counterfiet the true and living God.  That's his thing.  He loves deception and seeing anyone, believers or not, confused, dumbfounded, and frustrated.


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## Rainbow Dash (Apr 30, 2011)

makeupgirl said:


> Then what is the point of salvation being a free gift? What's the point of 1 John 1:9? What's the point of Gal 5:16-17? Our confession of our faith should line up only with what Jesus has told us to do in order to receive eternal life, which is to believe that Jesus died on the cross, was resurrected according to the scriptures.
> 
> We are still going to sin because of our born sinful nature. Yes, we are no longer in sin but the flesh is still active and fighting the Spirit of God in us for control. Which is why the one you feed is the one that is strong. If a believer has decided not to read the bible in a month, missed church, has started cussing again, watched porn and do everything under the sin against God; then they don't lose sonship, but they are out of the will of God and need to confess that sin and get right with God.
> 
> ...


 
I was addressing the fact that you said unforgiveness would not cause someone to lose salvation. I did not say people that do not go to church, tithe or read thier bible will go to hell. I did not say that. I addressed unforgiveness and rebellion. Lets say on topic. You are taking things far to make your point when the scripture I submitted to you is CLEAR.

*But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins. Matthew 6:15*

The scripture is clear. 

Galatians 5:19-
*19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, *

* 20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, ** 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. *

And yes I agree that we are to repent and allow the Spirit of the Lord to work in us. I agree salvation is a free gift for all who are willing to accept and receive. That means you did not work for your salvation but Christ accomplished it on the cross. If we continue/practice in sin and we fall into judgement. Look at Galatians 5:19-


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## Guitarhero (Apr 30, 2011)

makeupgirl said:


> I'm telling yall, Satan knows his time almost up and he's working Overtime to steal, kill, and destroy.  And what better way to do it then to counterfiet the true and living God.  That's his thing.  He loves deception and seeing anyone, believers or not, confused, dumbfounded, and frustrated.




  Add to that, FRIGHTENED.   This is so close to my heart because we face this type of persecution from Satan's mouth disguised as "loving truth toward salvation" all day long, every month, yearly...24/7.  The sheer hoards of "well-meaning" people who want to convert us.    Funny, here it is again and guess who's one of the intended targets.  Mind you, I know a lot about these organizations in L.  America trying to convert catholics to other faiths.  I lived there and witnessed it and it is surely ugly.  They also use these hellish scare tactics.  This case is very blatant considering the majority of people being of my faith who live there.  For this board, however, it's not about denomination, but that it's not full truth and causes what you mentioned..deception etc.  It's contradictory all through that message.  If the person doesn't like artists, then just say they don't prefer them.  This, imho, is a Satanic deception.  I rebuke it in Jesus' name.


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## Guitarhero (Apr 30, 2011)

Health&hair28 said:


> AR.
> 
> *But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins. Matthew 6:15*
> 
> The scripture is clear.




May I for a sec?  If there one person you have forgotten to forgive in your life?  Perhaps a wrong done years ago and you've moved on but never forgave them, you just forgot?  When one dies, is one going to hell for that?  What is the context in which Matt. 6:15 is given?  Does it refer to ongoing unrelenting choice to not forgive..like everyone?  I think there are distinctions and contexts that are oft overlooked in scripture.  The fact is, there are so many venial  sins we commit by omission and commission every hour of the day.  We're not even aware of them and their consequences.  Mortal sins requiring full-knowledge and of a grave nature are those which break off that grace until fully confessed. So, we certainly die with a multitude of sins committed, even with a heart of Christ.


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## makeupgirl (Apr 30, 2011)

Health&hair28 said:


> I was addressing the fact that you said unforgiveness would not cause someone to lose salvation. I did not say people that do not go to church, tithe or read thier bible will go to hell. I did not say that. I addressed unforgiveness and rebellion. Lets say on topic. You are taking things far to make your point when the scripture I submitted to you is CLEAR.
> 
> *But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins. Matthew 6:15*
> 
> ...


 
I'm aware of Gal 5:19-20, I've been studying it actually. The works of the flesh is the nickname of these verses. 

Now, I was on topic and I responded clearly and concisely to your response. My point was that we cannot work to receive salvation, which would include, not going to church, not forgiving someone, not tithing, etc. As a believer, I have held a grudge recently. I just felt a conviction from the Holy Spirit that I should let that go and confess. I'm a stubborn girl and yep I didn't want to. However, after talking to God about how I was feeling and remembering from scriptures that I wasn't going to be forgiven either; then I obeyed the word and forgave that person. However, if I had decided to still hold on to that and didn't forgive, it does not mean that I will lose my salvation. 

If I went all around the world to make the point, I'm sorry but that's what needed to be done. I live for God, I don't live for man and I'm not going to sugar coat anything. It was placed on my heart by the aid of the Holy Spirit, to speak and that's done. I'm not a speaker nor am I confrontational. 

I'll continue to keep everyone in my prayers.


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## Guitarhero (Apr 30, 2011)

makeupgirl said:


> I'm aware of Gal 5:19-20, I've been studying it actually.  The works of the flesh is the nickname of these verses.
> 
> Now, I was on topic and I responded clearly and concisely to your response.  My point was that we cannot work to receive salvation, which would include, not going to church, not forgiving someone, not tithing, etc.  As a believer, I have held a grudge recently.  I just felt a conviction from the Holy Spirit that I should let that go and confess.  I'm a stubborn girl and yep I didn't want to.  However,* after talking to God about how I was feeling and remembering from scriptures that I wasn't going to be forgiven either; then I obeyed the word and forgave that person.  However, if I had decided to still hold on to that and didn't forgive, it does not mean that I will lose my salvation.  *
> 
> ...




You're edifying my faith here!!!  I just thought of something, maybe that thing not forgiven is the punishment for the act that you've not forgiven if you committed the same offense but aren't aware of it?  Not salvation lost?  Could apply, but there might be another interpretation of this.  All sin requires a punishment.


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## Rainbow Dash (Apr 30, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> May I for a sec? If there one person you have forgotten to forgive in your life? Perhaps a wrong done years ago and you've moved on but never forgave them, you just forgot? When one dies, is one going to hell for that? What is the context in which Matt. 6:15 is given? Does it refer to ongoing unrelenting choice to not forgive..like everyone? I think there are distinctions and contexts that are oft overlooked in scripture.


 

I can't answer whether or not someone has forgotten to forgive. That is why we are to live a repentant life and confess our sins. I know that when I walked in unforgiveness and resented someone I did not forget. That unforgiveness was very much apart of my life and it showed. 

The Lord gave us our prayer model.

Mathew 6
*9* *In this manner, therefore, pray: 

*      Our Father in heaven, 
      Hallowed be Your name. 
*10* Your kingdom come. 
      Your will be done 
      On earth as _it is_ in heaven. 
*11* Give us this day our daily bread. 
*12 And forgive us our debts, 
      As we forgive our debtors*. 
*13* And do not lead us into temptation, 
      But deliver us from the evil one. 
      For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.
*14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.*


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## makeupgirl (Apr 30, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> You're edifying my faith here!!! I just thought of something, maybe that thing not forgiven is the punishment for the act that you've not forgiven if you committed the same offense but aren't aware of it? Not salvation lost? Could apply, but there might be another interpretation of this. All sin requires a punishment.


 
Could be and you're right, all sin requires a punishment.  God doesn't hesitate to chastise his kids when we have sinned against him.  

Ok, i'll be back on Monday.  I got to get some assignments for school finished that is due tomorrow night.


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## Rainbow Dash (Apr 30, 2011)

makeupgirl said:


> I'm aware of Gal 5:19-20, I've been studying it actually. The works of the flesh is the nickname of these verses.
> 
> Now, I was on topic and I responded clearly and concisely to your response. My point was that we cannot work to receive salvation, which would include, not going to church, not forgiving someone, not tithing, etc. *As a believer, I have held a grudge recently. I just felt a conviction from the Holy Spirit that I should let that go and confess. I'm a stubborn girl and yep I didn't want to. However, after talking to God about how I was feeling and remembering from scriptures that I wasn't going to be forgiven either; then I obeyed the word and forgave that person.* However, if I had decided to still hold on to that and didn't forgive, it does not mean that I will lose my salvation.
> 
> ...


 
I dealt with that as well it was killing me spiritually but I read the word and I knew that I had to obey my heavenly Father. I wanted to be pleasing to Him. Unforgiveness is something, I tell you, but thank God I'm free and I must continue to walk in that. 

We are sisters in Christ, good discussion. Now we can walk away and still love the Lord and one another.  Praying as well. Take care


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## Guitarhero (Apr 30, 2011)

Health&hair28 said:


> I can't answer whether or not someone has forgotten to forgive. That is why we are to live a repentant life and confess our sins. I know that when I walked in unforgiveness and resented someone I did not forget. That unforgiveness was very much apart of my life and it showed.
> 
> The Lord gave us our prayer model.
> 
> ...




I realize you're coming back in after Monday. I'm talking about somebody who wasn't as spiritual then as now...and might have forgotten some of their ways back when.  It was to demonstrate that we do forget things, sins, etc.  Many of them.  That doesn't mean someone isn't going to heaven. Rather, I personally think G-d is talking about a life's choice for every day and through years...that this is just how one lives.


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## bambieg (Apr 30, 2011)

Health&hair28 said:


> We are sisters in Christ, good discussion. Now we can walk away and still love the Lord and one another.  Praying as well. Take care



I agree! 
AMEN!!


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## Rainbow Dash (Apr 30, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> I realize you're coming back in after Monday. I'm talking about somebody who wasn't as spiritual then as now...and might have forgotten some of their ways back when. It was to demonstrate that we do forget things, sins, etc. Many of them. That doesn't mean someone isn't going to heaven. Rather, I personally think G-d is talking about a life's choice for every day and through years...that this is just how one lives.


 
I see what you are saying. That is why we should live a life of repentance. Simply asking the Lord to forgive us of our sin. He is faithful and just to do that.  So those past sins are forgiven.  Jesus told us to ask the Father to forgive our debts/sin.

Good discussion. We can all learn from one another, correct one another and still love one another, because of Christ's love in us.


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## Guitarhero (Apr 30, 2011)

Health&hair28 said:


> I see what you are saying. That is why we should live a life of repentance. Simply asking the Lord to forgive us of our sin. He is faithful and just to do that.  So those past sins are forgiven.  Jesus told us to ask the Father to forgive our debts/sin.
> 
> Good discussion. We can all learn from one another, correct one another and still love one another, because of Christ's love in us.




I'm not talking about somebody never knowing Him, I'm talking about a believer, new or lax.  How does anyone know what he's truly repented of or forgot to repent of because there were so many on the plate? One doesn't become instantly "saintly" overnight.  Maybe that person is repentant, just not aware of specific sins?   That's what I mean.  In all honestly, I think christians throw out the hell damnation too much.  Obviously, it exists.  We have His laws, rules, admonitions...everything we need.  Maybe we should focus more on ourselves making it to heaven.  I sincerely hate to see anybody (save for Hitler) have it said about them that "they're going to hell."  That should not be our right to say so.


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## Rainbow Dash (Apr 30, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> I'm not talking about somebody never knowing Him, I'm talking about a believer, new or lax. How does anyone know what he's truly repented of or forgot to repent of because there were so many on the plate? One doesn't become instantly "saintly" overnight. Maybe that person is repentant, just not aware of specific sins? That's what I mean. In all honestly, I think christians throw out the hell damnation too much. Obviously, it exists. We have His laws, rules, admonitions...everything we need. Maybe we should focus more on ourselves making it to heaven. I sincerely hate to see anybody (save for Hitler) have it said about them that "they're going to hell." That should not be our right to say so.


 

I talking about believers as well. We are simply to live a life of repentance because we do not arrive overnight. Repentance is asking the Lord to forgive us of our sin/wrong doing known and unknown. He will do it. Yes, hell is real and we should focus on ourselves making it to heaven and also sharing the gospel with others. 

He did not save us so that we should just look out for ourselves. If everyone just looked out for themselves many of us would not be saved. That is not Christlike. Christ told us to go and preach. Tell them the Truth of the Gospel. I posted scriptures,the scriptures said that they which do such things will not inherit the kingdom. That is not my word, it is the Word of God. I just believe what the Word says.


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## Guitarhero (May 1, 2011)

Health&hair28 said:


> I talking about believers as well. We are simply to live a life of repentance because we do not arrive overnight. Repentance is asking the Lord to forgive us of our sin/wrong doing known and unknown. He will do it. Yes, hell is real and we should focus on ourselves making it to heaven and also sharing the gospel with others.
> 
> He did not save us so that we should just look out for ourselves. If everyone just looked out for themselves many of us would not be saved. That is not Christlike. Christ told us to go and preach. Tell them the Truth of the Gospel. I posted scriptures,the scriptures said that they which do such things will not inherit the kingdom. That is not my word, it is the Word of God. I just believe what the Word says.




You are missing the point of my post...the entire point.  All of this is well-known.  Obviously, repentence and daily.  However, there are some people who are at a stage when they are immature.  We're all immature until we cross over, truly.  What I referenced about "unforgiveness" and whether it meant someone would not be saved was just that...that perhaps that scripture has different levels of meaning based upon the individual situation.  There are people who hold in unforgiveness and they are christians...obviously, they are people who, at that particular stage of their walk, have not DEALT with their unforgiveness.  Sigh.


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## Rainbow Dash (May 1, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> You are missing the point of my post...the entire point. All of this is well-known. Obviously, repentence and daily. However, there are some people who are at a stage when they are immature. We're all immature until we cross over, truly. What I referenced about "unforgiveness" and whether it meant someone would not be saved was just that...that perhaps that scripture has different levels of meaning based upon the individual situation. There are people who hold in unforgiveness and they are christians...obviously, they are people who, at that particular stage of their walk, have not DEALT with their unforgiveness. Sigh.


 

The scripture is clear. It is in His word not mine.  I cannot change the scripture to suit you, you must take that up with God. The scripture applies to all. It does not say advanced Christians or immature Christians. 
I cannot give you anything else. I just believe His Word.  If someone has not dealt with their unforgiveness they need to allow the Lord to help them and heal them, it is up them to let the unforgiveness go. The scripture is clear and I cannot change it to suit what you want to interpet. You will have to pray and ask God to answer what you are trying to say.  Thats all.


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## ktykaty (May 1, 2011)

I've read part of the testimony.

Concerning Jhon Paul II. The man knew he was going to dy, he knew that hell does exist. At the end of his life he repented of his sins abondantly. The last month of his life he was going to confession every single day. We catholics knows that. 
If what she is sharing is true, it would mean that sins are never forgiven even if you repent, which does not align with scriptures. 
It would also means that God is not merciful, which does not align with scriptures.

I don't like this message. Some truth laced with some falsehood.

I'll be back with more. I'll read it in spanish first.


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## Guitarhero (May 1, 2011)

Health&hair28 said:


> The scripture is clear. It is in His word not mine.  I cannot change the scripture to suit you, you must take that up with God. The scripture applies to all. It does not say advanced Christians or immature Christians.
> I cannot give you anything else. I just believe His Word.  If someone has not dealt with their unforgiveness they need to allow the Lord to help them and heal them, it is up them to let the unforgiveness go. The scripture is clear and I cannot change it to suit what you want to interpet. You will have to pray and ask God to answer what you are trying to say.  Thats all.




@Heath&Hair28, you have misinterpreted scripture yourself.  I truly believe now that you didn't have a clue as to what I was talking about.  That's ok.  I'm not angry about that.  But this inventing stuff is not necessary.  I only took up that specific issue of forgiveness for BELIEVERS who might have held a grudge and forgotten long about it..way in the past.  It's unresolved sin.  Only that was the issue.  It wasn't daily living in unforgiveness as you and I both know that people who are attempting to walk the path closer have to deal with things daily.  You cannot save me, neither am I 'unsaved' in your protestant terminology.  I guess it's best to let that issue go.  I do hope you realize that I was offering a discussion on that specific issue (imperfection and sin of something you never repented of properly) and did not in the least attempt to insult you.  Again, I was pointing to possibly ONE old instance early on in a christian walk of forgetting past sins.  The answer would be that G-d forgives and that if we hold grudges, maybe part of that judgment is the temporal punishments that go along with them.  That scripture didn't say, "struggle with unforgiveness for one harm committed against you and you go to hell."  In past discussions on this board and so many the world over, people are still struggling with what it truly means to forgive.


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## Rainbow Dash (May 1, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> @Heath&Hair28, you have misinterpreted scripture yourself. I truly believe now that you didn't have a clue as to what I was talking about. That's ok. I'm not angry about that. But this inventing stuff is not necessary. I only took up that specific issue of forgiveness for BELIEVERS who might have held a grudge and forgotten long about it..way in the past. It's unresolved sin. Only that was the issue. It wasn't daily living in unforgiveness as you and I both know that people who are attempting to walk the path closer have to deal with things daily. You cannot save me, neither am I 'unsaved' in your protestant terminology. I guess it's best to let that issue go. I do hope you realize that I was offering a discussion on that specific issue (imperfection and sin of something you never repented of properly) and did not in the least attempt to insult you. Again, I was pointing to possibly ONE old instance early on in a christian walk of forgetting past sins. The answer would be that G-d forgives and that if we hold grudges, maybe part of that judgment is the temporal punishments that go along with them. That scripture didn't say, "struggle with unforgiveness for one harm committed against you and you go to hell." In past discussions on this board and so many the world over, people are still struggling with what it truly means to forgive.


 
Guitarhero

Excuse me if I offended you.  Have a good day. Lets not sweat the small stuff and let us use this day to give glory to God.


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## Guitarhero (May 2, 2011)

You don't offend me.   Sometimes, it's good to look into the depths of His mercy to further comprehend the world and mankind, which makes His law all the more glorious.  That was my purpose.


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## Nic_Cali (May 2, 2011)

Thank You so much for this.
AMEN

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Long Hair Care Forum App


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## makeupgirl (May 2, 2011)

bambieg said:


> No need to take it personal. If you feel like this message is for you, then take it, if not disregard the message. I do not believe that his girl is trying to pass her message on as a scripture and incorporate it into the bible. I think she is just giving her testimony. As for the false prophets you mentioned, yes there are false prophets, in Christianity but I think about it more as these false religions out there that are pulling people away from the Him and his word.
> 
> I am not here to judge what this girl has testified about but I do believe what the girl has written about. Now if look at the old testament, God sent many prophets to the Israelites to tell them to repent and come back to God and as you know they did not listen. I don’t want to be one of those people whom God tells I sent you a prophet and you did not listen! God will judge her and her testimony and she will be held accountable. “Don’t not judge and you will not be judged, Do not condemn and you will not be condemned…” Luke 6:37
> 
> ...


 
I'm not taking it personal. I have learned to listen to the Holy Spirit as he direct my paths and to lead and guide into all truths. What is right is going to be in alignment with scripture. Anything else is not. The bible is a done deal, it's finished. Jesus already told us through his account and through the account of many other authors in the bible about what hell is going to be like and what heaven is going to be and look like. 

People going to believe what they want to hear but ask yourself this before we believe something that may be contrary to God's word, is it of the Lord? Is this in alignment to his word? More importantly, is this really something from you Lord or is it from Satan? Satan can also give false dreams now, as well as false hope. 

At the end of the day, my hope and my resting place is in the faith and belief of the word of the Lord Jesus Christ, the God of salvation that inspired men to write the word of God from his account that is where the body of Christ faith should be in; in what he has already said in his word.

I have said what the Holy Spirit has placed on my heart to say and I'm going to leave this thread alone.


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## Poohbear (May 3, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> I agree.  At the risk of bringing in Poohbear's question (why do we keep sinning...it should cease 100% or we don't know G-d...basically), this is what it reminded me of.  And this is probably one of the many reasons she is struggling with that.  When you read accounts spouted off as "truth" but they are not the biblical truth, then you spread confusion.  I haven't read the part of the rapture in that...stopped at JPII...that insulting bit of nonsense.    But I'll go back in.  Works are part of the package in the way that we demonstrate our repentance.  But they alone do not save.





I was taught "once saved always saved" and repentance is turning completely away from sin, then I started to feel bad when I would confess a sin and go right back doing the same sin. Then the meaning repentance changed to a change in attitude toward sin. Well, I've always felt bad about sinning but is that enough to save us from Hell in the end? Why does the bible speak so much against sin? I know there are a few ladies that have said there's a difference in spiritual and physical sin and that we only suffer consequences of physical sins here on earth and a Christian won't go to hell for physical sin. But I don't know. Can't physical sin affect your spiritual well-being? If you do the same sin over and over, do you really hate that sin? Okay, I could go on with these questions... I'll stop!!!


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## ktykaty (May 3, 2011)

What bothers me about this testimony is that the spirit wasn't properly tested IMHO. The best way to test a spirit is to ask them to confess that Jesus is Lord and Savior. It seems to me that this wasn't done.

What REALLY bothers me is that this testimony describe Hell as a place where demons rule. The lake of eternal fire was "prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41). Demons too will be tormented in hell.


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## Guitarhero (May 3, 2011)

Poohbear said:


> I was taught "once saved always saved" and repentance is turning completely away from sin, then I started to feel bad when I would confess a sin and go right back doing the same sin. Then the meaning repentance changed to a change in attitude toward sin. Well, I've always felt bad about sinning but is that enough to save us from Hell in the end? *Why does the bible speak so much against sin? I know there are a few ladies that have said there's a difference in spiritual and physical sin and that we only suffer consequences of physical sins here on earth and a Christian won't go to hell for physical sin. But I don't know. Can't physical sin affect your spiritual well-being? If you do the same sin over and over, do you really hate that sin?* Okay, I could go on with these questions... I'll stop!!!



Can you elaborate on physical and spiritual sins discussed in one of these threads because, as far as I know, there are sins of commission and omission, venial and mortal. As far as hating a sin you commit over and over again, yes, people hate them but find themselves repeatedly committing them because they have a stronghold/habitual nature.  Since humans are comprised of  body and soul, their psychology has a lot to do with such.  Roman's 7:15  "I don't really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don't do it. Instead, I do what I hate."  The provisions for dealing with sin are already given.  Confess them, rise back up and when you fall again, get back up.  Jesus fell several times on the via dolorosa, carrying the cross.  He got right back up for the end goal of giving us salvation by conquering sin through His death.


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## Honi (May 3, 2011)

Poohbear said:


> I was taught "once saved always saved" and repentance is turning completely away from sin, then I started to feel bad when I would confess a sin and go right back doing the same sin. Then the meaning repentance changed to a change in attitude toward sin. Well, I've always felt bad about sinning but is that enough to save us from Hell in the end? Why does the bible speak so much against sin? I know there are a few ladies that have said there's a difference in spiritual and physical sin and that we only suffer consequences of physical sins here on earth and a Christian won't go to hell for physical sin. But I don't know. Can't physical sin affect your spiritual well-being? If you do the same sin over and over, do you really hate that sin? Okay, I could go on with these questions... I'll stop!!!



When you KNOW who you *truly* are in Christ, you no longer want to do it (sin). As He is, so are you. It's not something you have to think consciously about. You simply do not have the desire.

People expect instant behavior modifications once saved. It doesn't work like that. He knows how you are . You will continue to trip and fall during your walk with Christ but always remember you have the blood of Christ that covers that. You will fall in line eventually. Don't condemn or beat yourself up. God sees you righteous and by FAITH you are to admit it. 

Your sins are forgiven PAST, PRESENT and FUTURE only because of HIS BLOOD.


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## Rainbow Dash (May 3, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> Can you elaborate on physical and spiritual sins discussed in one of these threads because, as far as I know, there are sins of commission and omission, venial and mortal. As far as hating a sin you commit over and over again, yes, people hate them but find themselves repeatedly committing them because they have a stronghold/habitual nature. Since humans are comprised of body and soul, their psychology has a lot to do with such. Roman's 7:15 "I don't really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don't do it. Instead, I do what I hate." The provisions for dealing with sin are already given. Confess them, rise back up and when you fall again, get back up. Jesus fell several times on the via dolorosa, carrying the cross. He got right back up for the end goal of giving us salvation by conquering sin through His death.


 
I agree, confess and get back up.   

*A righteous person may fall seven times, but he gets up again. However, in a disaster wicked people fall.   *Proverbs 24:16

- Also some things we fall into because we are not focused on the Lord. We allow our flesh to take over and allow things to come into our lives and become strongholds.

Blessed _is_ the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. *13*Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: *14**But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death*. *16*Do not err, my beloved brethren


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## Poohbear (May 4, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> Can you elaborate on physical and spiritual sins discussed in one of these threads because, as far as I know, there are sins of commission and omission, venial and mortal. As far as hating a sin you commit over and over again, yes, people hate them but find themselves repeatedly committing them because they have a stronghold/habitual nature.  Since humans are comprised of  body and soul, their psychology has a lot to do with such.  Roman's 7:15  "I don't really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don't do it. Instead, I do what I hate."  The provisions for dealing with sin are already given.  Confess them, rise back up and when you fall again, get back up.  Jesus fell several times on the via dolorosa, carrying the cross.  He got right back up for the end goal of giving us salvation by conquering sin through His death.



Guitarhero,

Hope I get this right. I got this interpretation from someone else that I have been chatting with:

Spiritual sin is unbelief in Jesus Christ, believing in false doctrine, and believing that what your physical body does pleases or displeases God or affects your salvation.  Spiritual sin is also the transgression of God's law in the MIND and the HEART. In other words, you see nothing wrong with sinning and you actually enjoy sinning.

Let's look at Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord". 

Most of us will look at the first part of this verse in this way: "For the wages of [physical] sin is [spiritual] death..."

However, it should be thought of in this way: "For the wages of [spiritual] sin is [spiritual] death..."

Our bodies and souls operate in two different realms... Body in the physical. Soul in the spiritual. The Holy Spirit compares spiritual things to spiritual things (Romans 1:18-25), and our physical body is controlled by the spirit of man which cannot know the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:7-13). We cannot compare spiritual things with physical things, and vice versa.  Physical sin leads to physical death. Spiritual sin lead to spiritual death. What our physical body does has no bearing on our spiritual soul. 

For example, if a Christian who believes in Jesus decides to commit fornication...that physical sin will be paid for by physical consequences on Earth and eventually physical death which is promised to everyone. Spiritual fornication is if you believe doing it or not doing it displeases/pleases God or affects your salvation.

In the physical, we are living physically on Earth and our bodies will return to the Earth when we die physically. It's only temporary.

In the spiritual, our souls will either live spiritually in Heaven or die spiritually in Hell. It's eternal.

Hope that makes sense. Let me know what you think about that.


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## Guitarhero (May 5, 2011)

Poohbear said:


> @Guitarhero,
> 
> Hope I get this right. I got this interpretation from someone else that I have been chatting with:
> 
> Spiritual sin is unbelief in Jesus Christ, believing in false doctrine, and believing that what your physical body does pleases or displeases God or Our bodies and souls operate in two different realms... Body in the  physical. Soul in the spiritual. The Holy Spirit compares spiritual  things to spiritual things (Romans 1:18-25), and our physical body is  controlled by the spirit of man which cannot know the things of God (1  Corinthians 2:7-13). We cannot compare spiritual things with physical  things, and vice versa.  Physical sin leads to physical death. Spiritual  sin lead to spiritual death. What our physical body does has no bearing  on our spiritual soul.




Simply not true.  We all die because of what our first earthly parents  did physically.  Spiritual death is unrepented of sin.  No everyone who commits fornication (for example) will die from AIDS or some other physical punishment.  However G-d metes out justice is His alone.  But we do know that sin caused physical death and that unrepented sin causes spiritual death.  Spiritual death is damnation.  You do not go to heaven.  Physical sin unrepented leads to spiritual death.


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## Guitarhero (May 5, 2011)

Poohbear said:


> @Guitarhero,
> 
> Hope I get this right. I got this interpretation from someone else that I have been chatting with:
> 
> Spiritual sin *is unbelief in Jesus Christ, believing in false doctrine*, and believing that what your physical body does pleases or displeases God or affects your salvation.  Spiritual sin is also the transgression of God's law in the MIND and the HEART. In other words, you see nothing wrong with sinning and you actually enjoy sinning.




While true that you can sin without having your hands involved, it still comes physically through the mind.  It involves the will toward evil.  the law of goodness was written on all hearts of mankind, whether they know of Jesus, believe and not reject once knowing, or have been raised in a "false" doctrine.  People cannot help the countries nor the religions they were born and raised in.  As I am a catholic, we do not believe that people automatically go to hell for not believing in Jesus.  G-d judges the individual hearts of man and whatever they have done according to the level of truth they have, that will be the criteria.  Just think, how convenient would it be for someone western to have been raised on Jesus and inherit heaven while the vast majority are of other religions and knowledge in the world.  Shrugs.  There is going to be dissent from this opinion but G-d is not unjust.


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## Crown (May 5, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> While true that you can sin without having your hands involved, it still comes physically through the mind.  It involves the will toward evil.  the law of goodness was written on all hearts of mankind, whether they know of Jesus, believe and not reject once knowing, or have been raised in a "false" doctrine.  People cannot help the countries nor the religions they were born and raised in.  As I am a catholic, we do not believe that people automatically go to hell for not believing in Jesus.  G-d judges the individual hearts of man and whatever they have done according to the level of truth they have, that will be the criteria.  Just think, how convenient would it be for someone western to have been raised on Jesus and inherit heaven while the vast majority are of other religions and knowledge in the world.  Shrugs.  There is going to be dissent from this opinion but G-d is not unjust.


I am not a catholic.
I agree with this point of view.

I don't know why so many Christians are trying to limit the love of God.
The Bible speaks clearly about 3 different places :

The Holy City, in the presence of God (Holy/Rulers)
The earth for the nations (Good)
The lake of fire : final destination of the wicked (Unjust).


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## Rainbow Dash (May 5, 2011)

Crown said:


> I am not a catholic.
> I agree with this point of view.
> 
> I don't know why so many Christians are trying to limit the love of God.
> ...


 

The thing is I don't know how people are coming to the conclusion that there are other ways to God. The scriptures tell me different. I need someone to explain what scripture in the bible tells us different. Christ said "I am the WAY.  

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6

I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture. John 10:9

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; John 11:25

“Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is *no other name under heaven* given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12)

“For there is one God and *one Mediator* between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all …” (1 Timothy 2:5)

*whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life*. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that *whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life*.” (John 3:15-16)

*He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life*, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (John 3:36)

“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; *for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.*” (John 8:24)

“Most assuredly, I say to you, *he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life*, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.” (John 5:24)

And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life and this life is in His Son. *He who has the Son has life; He who does not have the Son of God does not have life*.” (1 John 5:11)


For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. Ephe 2:18

 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, *5* even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), *6* and raised _us_ up together, and made _us_ sit together in the heavenly _places_ in Christ Jesus Ephs 2

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God Ephs 2:8


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## Crown (May 5, 2011)

Health&hair28 said:


> The thing is I don't know how people are coming to the conclusion that there are other ways to God. The scriptures tell me different. I need someone to explain what scripture in the bible tells us different. Christ said "I am the WAY.


A quick answer.

We are not in disagreement.

*Christ is the Way to enter in the Holy, the presence of God.*
Those who enter in this Heavenly and Holy City will reign over the earth.

Talking about the earth (not the heavenly holy City) :
Mat. 5: 5 Blessed are the *meek* (who does good, not evil), for they will inherit the earth.

God is Just. He gave us, mankind, this ability to do good by giving us conscience.

Gen. 4 : 6 Then the LORD *said to Cain*, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 * If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?* But if you do not do  what is right, *sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you,  but you must rule over it*.” 

Zac. 16 Then the survivors from  all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year  to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival  of Tabernacles. 17 *If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain*. 18 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The LORD will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 19  *This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the  nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles*.

Do you think that the Saints (holy), who will be like Him and in His presence, will still have plague?


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## Crown (May 5, 2011)

Don't take my word.
The Scriptures are the answer. The truth is here and there.
Human doctrine is what it is human.
We are living in the time described in Daniel where the technology allows us to have a better understanding.


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## Rainbow Dash (May 5, 2011)

Crown said:


> A quick answer.
> 
> We are not in disagreement.
> 
> ...


 
No one is righteous in God's eyes outside of the atonement made by Christ on the cross. Sin separated mankind from God. How can the good without Christ inherit the earth. Good works will not put you in right standing outside of Christ. Look at Ephesians 2:8. 

But we are all as an unclean thing, and *all our righteous acts are as filthy rags;* and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." Isaiah 64:6

"As it is written, there is none righteous, no not one" (Romans 3:10) and he said that "All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). *We become truly righteous not through our own righteousness, but through the power of Christ's righteousness.* 

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— *9* *not by works, so that no one can boast.* Ephesians 2:8

*whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life*. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that *whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life*.” (John 3:15-16)

All of us have sinned. 
No matter how we try, all our righteous acts are like filthy rags. 
We cannot save ourselves. 
Christ died and shed his blood to make an atonement for our sins. 
If by faith we receive the atonement, God will forgive all our sin and take us to Heaven when we die. 

To be righteous is to be right with God. To be right with God comes by accepting both Christ's grace and by obeying his commandments, following his teachings and doing the will of the Father.

There is no other way around it.


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## Crown (May 5, 2011)

You did not answer my question :

Zac. 16  Then the survivors from  all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem  will go up year after year  to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and  to celebrate the Festival  of Tabernacles. 17 *If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain*.  18 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no  rain. The LORD will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations  that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 19  *This  will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the  nations  that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles*.

*Do you think that the Saints (holy), who will be like Him and in His presence, will still have plague/punishment?*

Anyway, no need to answer it to me.
As I said, don't take my words. Let's continue to study the Scriptures.


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## Guitarhero (May 5, 2011)

Health&hair28 said:


> The thing is I don't know how people are coming to the conclusion that there are other ways to God. The scriptures tell me different. I need someone to explain what scripture in the bible tells us different. Christ said "I am the WAY.
> 
> Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6
> 
> ...



Health&hair28, you are right that there is one mediator but whether that is accomplished at the moment of death or during time on earth is not known.  As we give water to the thirsty, food to the hungry and attend to the sick, we are acting as Christ.  I don't think there is a limitation on who can do such.  At some point, all salvation comes through His Church no matter what religion another practiced.  That's where the  knowledge of G-d and living a good life as best as one could (not unlike being a christian) according to the level of truth s/he had comes into play.


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## Guitarhero (May 5, 2011)

Crown said:


> Don't take my word.
> The Scriptures are the answer. The truth is here and there.
> Human doctrine is what it is human.
> We are living in the time described in Daniel where the technology allows us to have a better understanding.




Where?  I want to know!!!!  Very interesting.


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## Rainbow Dash (May 5, 2011)

Crown said:


> You did not answer my question :
> 
> Zac. 16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 17 *If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain*. 18 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The LORD will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 19 *This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles*.
> 
> ...


 
I'm not sure I understand what answer you are looking for but I will give it a try.

On earth, saints will deal with the fall of man(effects of sin) until Christ returns. Christians still have problems, get sick, die, have hardships and so on but our faith remains in Christ.


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## Rainbow Dash (May 5, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> @Health&hair28, you are right that there is one mediator but whether that is accomplished at the moment of death or during time on earth is not known. As we give water to the thirsty, food to the hungry and attend to the sick, we are acting as Christ. I don't think there is a limitation on who can do such. At some point, all salvation comes through His Church no matter what religion another practiced. That's where the knowledge of G-d and living a good life as best as one could (not unlike being a christian) according to the level of truth s/he had comes into play.


 
Once again good works will not make one righteous before God. Works cannot make you righteous.  Who said there was a limitation on who can feed the hungry and attend to the sick. Those are good things that we all should do but it does not save our souls. Christ shed blood saves. 

Salvation comes through Christ not the Church.  

Good works does not make you saved. Christ shed blood on the cross is what washes away our sin and makes us righteous before God.  

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— *9* *not by works*, so that no one can boast.


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## Guitarhero (May 5, 2011)

Health&hair28 said:


> Once again good works will not make one righteous before God. Works cannot make you righteous.  Who said there was a limitation on who can feed the hungry and attend to the sick. Those are good things that we all should do but it does not save our souls. Christ shed blood saves.
> 
> Salvation comes through Christ not the Church.
> 
> ...



Please take the time to actually read my post before responding because you are missing the topic.  Is not Jesus the head of His Church?  How are you even taught about Him?  It has come through His Church.  Is not the eucharist or communion what He commanded?  That has come through His Church.  

In previous threads, I've mentioned time and time again that good works are a part of salvation - that without them, you cannot demonstrate your good fruits.  Please explain this to me:


*James 2:14-26 (New King James Version)*

*Faith Without Works Is Dead* 


 14 What  _does it_ profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16  and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,”  but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what _does it_ profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.    
 18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, _ “Abraham believed God, and it was_ _ accounted to him for righteousness.”_[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.


Incidentally, people are going to be surprised at who made it to heaven and who didn't.  He already warned us.


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## Crown (May 5, 2011)

Crown said:


> You did not answer my question :
> 
> Zac. 16  Then the survivors from  all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem  will go up year after year  to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and  to celebrate the Festival  of Tabernacles. 17 *If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain*.  18 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no  rain. The LORD will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations  that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 19  *This  will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the  nations  that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles*.
> 
> ...





Health&hair28 said:


> I'm not sure I understand what answer you are looking for but I will give it a try.
> 
> On earth, saints will deal with the fall of man(effects of sin) until Christ returns. Christians still have problems, get sick, die, have hardships and so on but our faith remains in Christ.



Please, pay attention to Zacharia 14. The whole chapter is talking about the day of the Lord and after (not now).

Zac. 14: 16   Then the survivors from  all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem   will go up year after year  to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and   to celebrate the Festival  of Tabernacles. 

Also, when you study Matthiew 25th, the Messiah is talking about 2 different groups.

*1- The Servants (brethren)*
Mat. 25.14 For the  kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, *who called  his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods*.    25.15 And unto one he gave five talents, to  another two, and to another one; *to every man according to his several  ability*; and straightway took his journey.    25.16 Then *he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents*.    25.17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.    25.18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.    25.19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.    25.20 And so he that had received five talents  came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto  me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.    25.21 His lord said unto him, *Well done, thou  good and faithful servant*: thou hast been faithful over a few things, *I  will make thee ruler over many things*: enter thou into the joy of thy  lord.

Rev. 5 : 10 And hast *made us* unto our God *kings and priests*: and we shall *reign on the earth*.

*2- The others (nations)*
Mat. 25.35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat : I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:    25.36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.    25.37 *Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?    *25.38* When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?    *25.39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?    25.40 And the King shall answer and say unto  them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it *unto one of the  least of these my brethren*, ye have done it unto me.

Mat. 10 : 42 And *whosoever shall give to drink unto  one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a  disciple*, verily I say unto you, *he shall in no wise lose his reward*.

Christians are the brethren/disciples and they know what they are doing and they live by faith and for Christ, choosing life.
Others don't, they don't know they are doing good for Christ. But they can do good, because this is what was the deal in Eden and we all have conscience (some choose to shut it down) :
free will to choose between good and evil for mankind.

Blessing!


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## Crown (May 5, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> Where?  I want to know!!!!  Very interesting.



The technology part is from me , (but it's obvious) :

Dan. 12 :  4 "But you, Daniel, close  up the book and seal it. These things will happen at the time of the  end. Many people will go here and there to find true knowledge."


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## Rainbow Dash (May 5, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> Please take the time to actually read my post before responding because you are missing the topic. Is not Jesus the head of His Church? How are you even taught about Him? It has come through His Church. Is not the eucharist or communion what He commanded? That has come through His Church.
> 
> In previous threads, I've mentioned time and time again that good works are a part of salvation - that without them, you cannot demonstrate your good fruits. Please explain this to me:
> 
> ...


 
Guitarhero
I read your post. Salvation comes through Christ. It does not come through the church. The church member is used by Christ to tell that salvation is in Christ. 

You can receive Christ on your job, in your home, or anywhere. The body of Christ is the Church. Someone can witness you to about Christ anywhere and once you receive Him you are saved even if it is on a street corner. 

I've met people who gave their life to Christ outside of a church building by someone who was a member of the Body of Christ. Salvation still comes through Christ. The member of the body is used to tell the good news but it still comes through Christ.

You can be taught the word of God anywhere, you do not have to be in a church building to learn about Christ. Simply reading your bible allows you to learn about Christ allowing the Holy Spirit to teach you.

1 John 2:27 But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don't need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true--it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ.

Christ is the head of the Church. The church is the body of Christ (believers in Christ), Not a building.

Communion can be done in your home alone, with a group of believers, or in a church building. He did not say it had to be in a Church building.

Yes Faith without works is dead. So because I am a believer in Christ and His word. I will do works that show that I am believer. 

Just because someone does good works does not mean they are a believer in Christ. The Pharisees did good works but they missed Christ. So good works will not give you salvation.

*8* For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— *9* *not by works, so that no one can boast.* *10* *For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Ephesians 2:8-10*



Yes you are right He did tell us who would have life in heaven. Read the below scriptures.

*He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life*, but the wrath of God abides on him." (John 3:36)

"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; *for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.*" (John 8:24)

All of us have sinned. 
No matter how we try, all our righteous acts are like filthy rags. 
We cannot save ourselves. 
Christ died and shed his blood to make an atonement for our sins. 
If by faith we receive the atonement, God will forgive all our sin and take us to Heaven when we die. 

To be righteous is to be right with God. To be right with God comes by accepting both Christ's grace and by obeying his commandments, following his teachings and doing the will of the Father.

*There is no other way around it. *


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## Rainbow Dash (May 5, 2011)

Crown said:


> Please, pay attention to Zacharia 14. The whole chapter is talking about the day of the Lord and after (not now).
> 
> Zac. 14: 16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.
> 
> ...


 

Salvation, remission of sins, redemption, justification is through Christ alone, not good works. Good works can be done by anyone, I agree on that. But remission of sins is through the blood of Jesus. Good works will not take away sin. Only through Christ.  

*8* *For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.* Ephesians 2:8-10

The Pharisees did good works and still missed Christ. 

Faith without works is dead. So because I am a believer in Christ and His word. I will do works that show that I am believer. 

Just because someone does good works does not mean they are a believer in Christ. The Pharisees did good works but they missed Christ. So good works will not give you salvation.


*He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life*, but the wrath of God abides on him." (John 3:36)


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## Guitarhero (May 6, 2011)

Health&hair28 said:


> @Guitarhero
> I read your post. Salvation comes through Christ. It does not come through the church. The church member is used by Christ to tell that salvation is in Christ.
> 
> You can receive Christ on your job, in your home, or anywhere. The body of Christ is the Church. Someone can witness you to about Christ anywhere and once you receive Him you are saved even if it is on a street corner.
> ...



I have one question for you.  What/who is Christ's church?  You are confusing what I'm saying with an edifice.  He is the Temple, rebuilt in 3 days.    But we can never play down what He has taught through apostolic handing down because He first handed it to them.  


Matthew 16:18
Now  I say to you that you are Peter (which means 'rock'), and upon this  rock I will build my church, and all the powers of hell will not conquer  it.


The Church as place is very important to G-d and goes back to His prescripts with Moses and Aaron and beyond.  Jesus taught at the Temple and could be found there on a regular basis.  That, we cannot overlook to justify avoiding.  And as you say, it could be in small group.  However, it is this "institution" of assembly that is highly important because He gave it to us.  And through it flow His graces and gifts.


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## Crown (May 6, 2011)

Crown said:


> You did not answer my question :
> 
> Zac. 16  Then the survivors from  all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem  will go up year after year  to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and  to celebrate the Festival  of Tabernacles. 17 *If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain*.  18 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no  rain. The LORD will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations  that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 19  *This  will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the  nations  that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles*.
> 
> ...





Health&hair28 said:


> Salvation, remission of sins, redemption, justification is through Christ alone, not good works. Good works can be done by anyone, I agree on that. But remission of sins is through the blood of Jesus. Good works will not take away sin. Only through Christ.
> 
> *8* *For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.* Ephesians 2:8-10
> 
> ...



^^ Did you read the verses and take the time to prove all things ?
You keep saying the same thing but you still have not answered my question!

You can’t take a part and ignore the others.
They did it before and set up a lot of human doctrines.
However, with the actual technology, it’s so easy now to have a better understanding of the Scriptures…

Anyway, if it’s not for you, it’s for someone else.

Let’s continue to study the Scriptures, and to learn from the Holy Spirit, and may the Father bless us!

 [FONT=&quot]Is. 28.10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little…[/FONT]


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## Rainbow Dash (May 6, 2011)

Crown said:


> ^^ Did you read the verses and take the time to prove all things ?
> You keep saying the same thing but you still have not answered my question!
> 
> You can’t take a part and ignore the others.
> ...


 

Yes, I will continue to study and learn. I read those scriptures and I just not getting how it relates to what we are discussing. Im not ignoring what you are saying. The scriptures you used had the words servant. Servant of who? If you are a servant of Christ you will know it. If you are a disciple of Christ you will know it. It is not by accident. I will continue to learn and grow in Christ. Thanks for your time. God bless you as well.


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## Honi (May 6, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> Please take the time to actually read my post before responding because you are missing the topic.  Is not Jesus the head of His Church?  How are you even taught about Him?  It has come through His Church.  Is not the eucharist or communion what He commanded?  That has come through His Church.
> 
> In previous threads, I've mentioned time and time again that good works are a part of salvation - that without them, you cannot demonstrate your good fruits.  Please explain this to me:
> 
> ...



Guitarhero, not you but some people that don’t understand GRACE like to use this verse to promote the LAW. Abraham and Rahab are both poor examples to promote the Law. One is going to kill his son and the other lied. Yet, both were justified by GOD but by the Law they would be condemned. They were simply nothing but acts of *BELIEVING* and acts of faith. 

James cannot contradict Paul.

Abraham was already made righteous in Genesis 15. Isaac wasn’t even born yet. Abraham’s *belief* is what made him righteous…not his works. As a believer, God gives you righteousness apart from your works. Apart from Law.

2 But Abram said, “Sovereign LORD, what can you give me since I remain childless and the one who will inherit[c] my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 And Abram said, “You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir.” 
4 Then the word of the LORD came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir.” 5 He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring[d] be.” 
* 6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.*

It was many years after that (~40?) before the offering of Isaac on the altar.

In James it's righteousness before *MAN*. It is justification before MAN.

Without the work of the spirit in our life, our faith is dead.  It is the works of those who trust in Jesus alone for salvation, not in their own works of righteousness in the flesh.  Those who are truly saved will demonstrate the fruit of the spirit and they will demonstrate their faith with the work of not trusting in fleshly works in order to please God.


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## Guitarhero (May 6, 2011)

Honi said:


> Guitarhero, not you but some people that don’t understand GRACE like to use this verse to promote the LAW. Abraham and Rahab are both poor examples to promote the Law. One is going to kill his son and the other lied. Yet, both were justified by GOD but by the Law they would be condemned. They were simply nothing but acts of *BELIEVING* and acts of faith.
> 
> James cannot contradict Paul.
> 
> ...



Not in our Church, unless you prove it, you ain't never had it.  In order to keep it, you gotta use it.    In other words, you show it by going through the sacraments of baptism of your children, confirmation and communion, reconciliation etc.  You can be received in  His Temple, but it's how you demonstrate what you receive in your daily walk.  I'm not talking about falling down nor not being perfect.  It's a process.  And everyone will give an account of his earthly life.  That's nothing other than what you did in your faith, not just belief.  Folks can believe all day long but what do they do?

Now, this is not a contradiction because the gift is freely given but there is a price - that of following it. How can one separate out this free gift from works of doing good in life that demonstrate the very faith that one has developed?  Yet, belief and faith are that very first step.  Faith is an act in itself.  It's something you do.  The balance is right there.  When we have faith, we are pleasing G-d.  But doing good is proving we not only wish to please Him, we are showing Him we love Him.


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## Guitarhero (May 6, 2011)

Honi said:


> Guitarhero, not you but some people that don’t understand GRACE like to use this verse to promote the LAW. *Abraham and Rahab are both poor examples to promote the Law.* One is going to kill his son and the other lied. Yet, both were justified by GOD but by the Law they would be condemned. They were simply nothing but acts of *BELIEVING* and acts of faith.
> .




I worship the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.  He was the first Hebrew...to cross over.  He was righteous and G-d blessed Him.  G-d told him to sacrifice everything for Him...even his son.  G-d killed Jesus as well, if you look at it that way.  Abraham's faith was such that he complied fully with the will of G-d.  There is commentary concerning whether or not he killed Isaac.  He might have...or G-d might have stopped his hand in mid air (like the movies like to promote).  Whatever the case, Abram had faith that G-d was going to make all things right in His will.


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## Honi (May 7, 2011)

I understand why you say that you should do something. It is a natural human action to want to have to do something. There is nothing wrong with doing good. We should all be kind, give to charity, etc but that ALONE will not save you. Most of all, it will not add anything to your position or your salvation that you already have. That's like trying/working to get into a room that you are already in.

Cain and Abel: Abel brought a blood like offering (which you can probably view as a picture of Christ). Cain brought salad with Wishbone dressing  His own fleshly works that he thought was good enough.

Genesis 4:
Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. 3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the LORD. 4 And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering, 5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.

Hebrews 11:4 
 4 By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. 

Some people walking in the flesh end up pissed off, not healed, discouraged and not having the full benefit of Christ because all this work they DO profits nothing. More importantly, it leads to bad decisions.

John 6:63 (NIV)
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. 

Abel made his sacrifice by faith, as believers we accept Jesus’ death by faith and are made righteous. 

When Christ laid down his life, he became our substitute. The work that was accomplished through His death is COMPLETE. 

So help me understand. If the work of Christ was finished on the cross, what is it that you "working" for?


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