# should i STAY WITH MY HUSBAND IF HE RAPES ME?



## kurlybella (Apr 27, 2009)

kbragg brought up some points in my falling out of love thread that made me think about this.

if the only grounds for divorce, per jesus himself is adultery (or abandonment), then if a wo/man says that god has told her to leave her child abuser husband/wife, or serial killer husband/wife, etc. is s/he wrong?

“_It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery. And whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery_,” (Matthew 5:31-32, ESV)

i ask this question because if the rationale is god tells people to do things are are against/contradict what's written in the bible, then it must not be god talking to you but satan or is that sinking feeling you have going on in your stomach just really bad gas?

although it may be necessary in some other situations for a spouse to separate from or divorce his or her mate, the bible requires him or her to remain unmarried until reconciled - which most people end up remarrying, becoming adulturers, per jesus.
_To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife (1 Corinthians 7:10-11)._

*what say you? if you pray on something and come to a conclusion that "seems to go against the bible" is it wrong/sinful?*

i'll share my opinions later.





mwedzi said:


> But didn't you see in another post? God actually told her to get divorced.





kbragg said:


> People say God told them to do a lot of things People say God told them to decapitate and drown their children The Bible says that the devil come as a wolf in sheep's clothing fronting as an Angel of light. Satan hates marriage and God HATES divorce. I may get a "feeling" God is telling me to do something but if it contradicts His Word than IMO it is not of Him. OP may get mad at me for saying that but God wrote it not me, take it up with Him





kurlybella said:


> people leave abusive marriages all the time because they say god tells them to leave. however there is no grounds for divorce in the bible - per jesus himself (who spoke for his father) - *but adultery*. every single other reason is human based. so with that rational, then all men married to molesters must stay with them?? god really wants that? there are NO biblical verses to leave for abuse or other things such as molestation, etc.
> 
> and we make decisions everyday that are not commonly accepted (depending on which denomination you ask) as christian decisions. i mean catholics think birth control is wrong because god tells them so.
> 
> ...


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## Skiggle (Apr 27, 2009)

erplexed....

Sorry but The Good Lord
couldn't even make
me stay with him...


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## WhipEffectz1 (Apr 27, 2009)

Some women like that kind of ravishment.......


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## sonce (Apr 27, 2009)

Say whaaaa?


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## WhipEffectz1 (Apr 27, 2009)

sonce said:


> Say whaaaa?



LMAO!!! I only read like 3-5 sentences then I'm done.


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## Qualitee (Apr 27, 2009)

No thats madness! He'll rape you today ...............and kill you tomorrow.


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## kurlybella (Apr 27, 2009)

sonce said:


> Say whaaaa?



omg i'm laughing so loud at this response and that smiley!


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## ♦K.O♦ (Apr 27, 2009)

WhipEffectz1 said:


> Some women like that kind of ravishment.......



If they like it, it isn't rape.  I like to be ravished every once in a while, but I cant even see how actual rape could be enjoyable.


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## kurlybella (Apr 27, 2009)

WhipEffectz1 said:


> LMAO!!! I only read like 3-5 sentences then I'm done.



whip, gone head and read my thread nah!

support a sista and respond with all wit and good intent.


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## WhipEffectz1 (Apr 27, 2009)

kurlybella said:


> whip, gone head and read my thread nah!
> 
> support a sista and respond with all wit and good intent.



I have ADD on this board so I will often go into a thread and read like 3-5 sentences then respond. Next thing you know someone is  because I'm  about the topic at hand but yo shawty I only read 3-5 sentences so pump ya brakes.  Don't be writing no dissertation on here because Whip's not going to read that. I can read in class.....


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## WhipEffectz1 (Apr 27, 2009)

Hmmm, if I felt my line of thinking was going against the bible then I would just pray on it and get the hell out of a situation like that...


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## Hairsofab (Apr 27, 2009)

The bible says a lot of things. I'm sure you could find something that contradicts those passages easily.


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## Lynn84 (Apr 27, 2009)

CinnaMizz said:


> If they like it, it isn't rape.  I like to be ravished every once in a while, but I cant even see how actual rape could be enjoyable.



I agree with CinnaMizz. There is a difference between rape and ravishment.


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## TrustMeLove (Apr 27, 2009)

If your husband is raping you than that is a form of abuse. Christ told men to love your wife as Christ loved the church. Just twist that around and think of Christ raping the church? ugh Negative.

He has broken the covenant between God, you and him and you are free to move on. We don't serve a God that is in to abusing us...he doesn't want you to stay in any situation where you are being mentally, physically, nor spiritually abused.

Now when it comes to can you marry again...that's something that you need to seek the face of God on.

I'm not married and have never been married, but work in a marriage ministry that deals with domestic violence in the Christian home. Dealing specifically with the 3 forms of abuse I mentioned above.


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## TrustMeLove (Apr 27, 2009)

Also rape is sexually immoral so I don't see how those verses contradict what the person heard from God. It is giving the man or woman a clear path to divorce the abuser.


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## SVT (Apr 27, 2009)

Is this supposed to be in the Christian forum? Are you looking for faith-based responses?


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## doriannc (Apr 27, 2009)

never.  kthanx!

But all jokes aside. Why would God want me to be in a relationship with someone that obviously doesn't love me or respect me or my body?


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## wicky2828 (Apr 27, 2009)

doriannc said:


> never. kthanx!
> 
> But all jokes aside. Why would God want me to be in a relationship with someone that obviously doesn't love me or respect me or my body?


 
I guess you have to wonder whether God had anything to do with relationship in the first place. A lot of women want to believe in something so bad that they can't see that the person that they are with, isn't who God intended them to be with.


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## divya (Apr 27, 2009)

Here is my understanding on this so far...

Physically removing oneself from a situation does not necessarily mean _divorcing_ one's husband. A woman ought to physically remove herself for her own safety and well-being, and even more so, if children are in the picture. That does not mean that she divorces her husband. That also does not mean that she should reconcile with her husband either, if she is not convinced that he is truly changed. 

Here's something that has lingered in my mind regarding this subject, and I ask the Holy Spirit for guidance on this matter. When a person is abused verbally or physically, often they are in no position mentally/emotionally to enter into a new relationship (not saying that they would right away). Of course, the same can be said for infidelity, but that may leave a person in a different mental/emotional position than one who has been abused. Maybe that is why the Lord gave us that instruction. Of course, in time, that abusive husband may very well, which would leave the woman free to divorce him (and move on).

But whatever the reasoning is, He knows what is best for us.


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## aribell (Apr 27, 2009)

In response to the op, yeah, if someone comes to a conclusion that is against the Bible, that is wrong.

People say "God told me x, y, and z" all the time.  And what they mean most of the time is "I really feel x, y, or z."  We think if it's something we feel really strongly about then God must be behind us.  That's not so.

Rape is physical violence and we are in no way required to stay in abusive situations.  Remarriage is an entirely different question, however.


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## MissYocairis (Apr 27, 2009)

Every person who claims that God frowns upon divorce in cases of abuse has not of themselves been abused or been the child of parents who abuse each other.  

You have no idea how many women have been KILLED...physically, because everyone in the church was sitting back telling her that she cannot leave because he's an abuser.

You have no idea how many women have had their faces REARRANGED, their innocence and beauty stolen, their mind twisted....all because they stayed to be pleasing to God....because someone down at the church said....

You don't think about how many men grow up seeing abuse at the hands of their father on their mother....and they grow up to beat on their woman...because their mother never stood up and said, "no more"....due to someone down at the church pulling out the Bible to say......

You do not realize how a person can DIE from the severe isolation and shame that goes along with being an abused spouse....but she's sticking it out because the Bible never gave her permission and her pastor didn't wanna step outta line and tell her to "RUN".  

I don't think you've known anyone who was murdered by their husband, do you?  After years of abuse....and she prayed.. and prayed and prayed and read that Book...and she asked her pastor, and asked the First Lady, and asked her elders....

It's sad this debate is even going on.  God didn't intend for any woman to be raped, abused, beat, terrorized.  That's not His plan for His daughters.  This is why a woman should always, always look within...instead of asking everyone's opinion when none are qualified to answer the question.....be still, pray, and listen because He'll reveal the way to handle it.


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## TrustMeLove (Apr 27, 2009)

I've mentioned it before but this book. Mending the Clergy Cloth by Dr. Lisa Tunstall is an excellent book about domestic violence in the Christian home. It's a book that talks about God's original plan for marriage, what to do if you are in this situation, and how to avoid the situation.

She is a Pastor's wife and set down with other ex and current Pastor wives to hear there stories which she has put in the book. Some of them had to run for their lives and others were able to reconcile after a year or so of being apart and seeking counseling separatelya nd together. 

It's an excellent book. Which you can get at www.lisatunstall.org


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## divya (Apr 27, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> In response to the op, yeah, if someone comes to a conclusion that is against the Bible, that is wrong.
> 
> People say "God told me x, y, and z" all the time.  And what they mean most of the time is "I really feel x, y, or z."  We think if it's something we feel really strongly about then God must be behind us.  That's not so.
> 
> Rape is physical violence and we are in no way required to stay in abusive situations.  Remarriage is an entirely different question, however.



Agree completely. 

God does not want us to stay in abusive situations at all...not at all. However, He does give us instructions as to when we can remarry. It's a tough situation though. My heart goes out to those ladies (and men) who have been through this...


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## Highly Favored8 (Apr 27, 2009)

Smuckie_Slick said:


> Every person who claims that God frowns upon divorce in cases of abuse has not of themselves been abused or been the child of parents who abuse each other.
> 
> You have no idea how many women have been KILLED...physically, because everyone in the church was sitting back telling her that she cannot leave because he's an abuser.
> 
> ...


 

Very well said. It is sad that the church does not come out and really speak on this issue. Some men do beleive it is okay to rape their wives I know 1-2 of them now. I am like NO! It is not ok and then I say you wonder why your wife is not with you both now!


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## Precious_1 (Apr 27, 2009)

Yes!!!! this is so on point. Very well said!! I wish I could give you a thousand thanks!



Smuckie_Slick said:


> Every person who claims that God frowns upon divorce in cases of abuse has not of themselves been abused or been the child of parents who abuse each other.
> 
> You have no idea how many women have been KILLED...physically, because everyone in the church was sitting back telling her that she cannot leave because he's an abuser.
> 
> ...


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## JFemme (Apr 27, 2009)

Talk about long suffering... lawdamercy........



THANKS, Smuckie !!! Most excellent post!!!!!!...


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## msa (Apr 27, 2009)

Umm, if my husband...

physically, emotionally, sexually, verbally, or any other kind of "ally" abuses myself or my children then I'm getting divorced...and if God doesn't like it, then I guess I'd be going to hell...

but, I would ask myself if that relationship was meant for me from the beginning...was I listening to God in the first place? were there signs I ignored? did people in the church who I trusted tell me I shouldn't marry that person? was I just being hardheaded and chose to turn a blind eye? If so, then I already sinned just by getting married to someone who God didn't set out for me.

I'm a strong believer that people show their arse way before you get married...maybe not with you personally, but with somebody (an ex, a family member, etc). People don't all of a sudden become abusers when they're 35. So if I ended up in this situation, I'd have to blame myself for not using the common sense God gave me.


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## kurlybella (Apr 27, 2009)

Smuckie_Slick said:


> Every person who claims that God frowns upon divorce in cases of abuse has not of themselves been abused or been the child of parents who abuse each other.
> 
> You have no idea how many women have been KILLED...physically, because everyone in the church was sitting back telling her that she cannot leave because he's an abuser.
> 
> ...


 
hmmmm, i know of a situation where a woman was being abused - mental/rape and her children molested - when she found out about the kids she left him went to her church (he'd been abusing her when the kids were not around, so when she found out about the kids...).

do you know they wanted her to go to counseling with this man? or leave to give him time to be healed.

i just could NOT BELIVE it! what?! 

they emphasised that god frowns on divorce and that he wanted to see them togehter so they should try to patch it up.

how in the hades are you supposed to do that with a man who physically holds you down and sticks his penis in your soul.

how???????!!!

not only that, for ME - SPEAKING FOR KURLYBELLA - i'm not a long sufferer! and never will be. one time, hit me once, rape me once, i'm out out out!!!

how can a woman even look at her man the same after rape???? him holding you down, ripping off your pantes, causing scars in a dry unreponsive vagina and him putting his hands over your mouth and possibly a knife to your neck as you beg for mercy.

or you watch him stick his fingers in his OWN DAUGHTER'S VAGINA???????

to each his own.


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## kurlybella (Apr 27, 2009)

TrustMeLove said:


> Also rape is sexually immoral so I don't see how those verses contradict what the person heard from God. It is giving the man or woman a clear path to divorce the abuser.


 
clear path?

would you please post the actualy bible verse that says abuse is ground for divorce?


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## divya (Apr 27, 2009)

kurlybella said:


> hmmmm, i know of a situation where a woman was being abused - mental/rape and her children molested - when she found out about the kids she left him went to her church (he'd been doing this when the kids were not around).
> 
> do you know they wanted her to go to counseling with this man? or leave to give him time to be healed.
> 
> ...



Sick! That man is a criminal...and belongs in jail with the rest of them.


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## kurlybella (Apr 27, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> In response to the op, yeah, if someone comes to a conclusion that is against the Bible, that is wrong.
> 
> People say "God told me x, y, and z" all the time. And what they mean most of the time is "I really feel x, y, or z." We think if it's something we feel really strongly about then God must be behind us. That's not so.
> 
> Rape is physical violence and we are in no way required to stay in abusive situations. Remarriage is an entirely different question, however.


 
remarriage is not allowed unless widowed or abandoned. that's clear cut in the bible. i'm talking actual verses, not manmade interpretations.

of course we should not stay in a violent relationship, however, there is no verse that says we can DIVORCE for this reason, which is the point of my thread.

so the question still stands, if you do something deamed a sin in the bible, in this case divorcing your rapist husband, is it still wrong? or did jesus want to you stay with him - jesus himself said that adultry - meaning sleeping with someone else -- no matter how much a new defintion we try to give to it now - is the ONLY ground for _*divorce*_ (less abandonment which is mentioned in corinthians).

i find that people rationalize this in many different ways, so i wanted to have a discussion about this.


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## comike (Apr 27, 2009)

Would you stay with your husband if he beat you....because they're basically the same.


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## MizzBrown (Apr 27, 2009)

comike said:


> Would you stay with your husband if he beat you....because they're basically the same.


 
People do it all day everyday too..and they still together.


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## divya (Apr 27, 2009)

kurlybella said:


> remarriage is not allowed unless widowed or abandoned. that's clear cut in the bible. i'm talking actual verses, not manmade interpretations.
> 
> of course we should not stay in a violent relationship, however, there is no verse that says we can DIVORCE for this reason, which is the point of my thread.
> 
> ...



Not sure if I answered your question directly initially. Personally, I believe it is wrong to _divorce_ him. You should physically remove yourself from being around him though, for your own safety.


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## TrustMeLove (Apr 27, 2009)

divya said:


> Not sure if I answered your question directly initially. Personally, I believe it is wrong to _divorce_ him. You should physically remove yourself from being around him though, for your own safety.



I'm on my phone and quoted the wrong post. But to Kurls post. Rape is sexual immorality and therefore grounds for divorce. Thats what I believe. As far as abuse I consider that grounds for divorce too. I dont have the book with me where I read it  and the scriptures  of course..but legally I would divorce that person in a hot quick second.

Spiritually. I'm sure that folks can back it up with there scriptures that if a man is beating you down you can separate but not divorce. I believe that the marriage convenant was broken and is grounds for separation minimum. I need to find my book for anything.

But by the mercies of God I hope to never be in that situation. However. I know that TmL would be divorced and thats not of no natural thats of the spirit too.


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## kayte (Apr 27, 2009)

> not only that, for ME - SPEAKING FOR KURLYBELLA - i'm not a long sufferer! and never will be. one time, hit me once, rape me once, i'm out out out!!!



OP I'm confused.... you kind of answered your own question..
but if  you are asking..for sake of "discussion" 

does the bible condone divorce on this issue....
Jesus stated on grounds of sexual immorality  divorce is permissble
rape qualifies

okay?




> how can a woman even look at her man the same after rape???? him holding you down, ripping off your pantes, causing scars in a dry unreponsive vagina and him putting his hands over your mouth and possibly a knife to your neck as you beg for mercy.



I don't get and am sad and angry about the post.
why that was necessary....we know what rape is
and it is completely insensitive to post that
if there are members who survived or still healing from that trauma.


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## Almaz (Apr 27, 2009)

I dont' think G-d would be pleased at you being abused and you are still letting it happen.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Apr 27, 2009)

It could be that his intent wasn't to have a real marriage in the first place.  That would make it a non-marriage.  Was something missing that would have made it a holy union in the first place?  Psychological issues, haste to marry, this abusiveness factor?  These would not have made it a true marriage in the first place...not according to the model of Christ.  Just getting hitched don't make you stuck to an abuser for life.  This is how women are mistreated worldwide, from century to century.


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## kurlybella (Apr 27, 2009)

kayte said:


> OP I'm confused.... you kind of answered your own question..
> but if  you are asking..for sake of "discussion"
> 
> does the bible condone divorce on this issue....
> ...



of course i had to answer my own question since i asked it.  

i don't think rape qualifies as the word is written. it specifically addresses this immorality to be adultery, but i guess it all depends on what translation of the bible we all read and what denomination since everyone is entitled to translate the bible as they see fit. it does not even say you can leave a husband who beats you, but that's neither here nor there. 

either way, whether it qualified or not, i would leave my husband and not bat an eye doing so.

i'm sorry that you feel that it's insensitive, i didn't feel that way. we post very descriptive things on this board, however i apologize if you feel offended.


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## kurlybella (Apr 27, 2009)

MizzBrown said:


> People do it all day everyday too..and they still together.



but whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?????????????? no, really, why would you stay with someone who beats you down????


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## kurlybella (Apr 27, 2009)

comike said:


> Would you stay with your husband if he beat you....because they're basically the same.



or like women who stand by their serial killer husbands. why??????????


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Apr 27, 2009)

msa said:


> Umm, if my husband...
> 
> physically, emotionally, sexually, verbally, or any other kind of "ally" abuses myself or my children then I'm getting divorced...and if God doesn't like it, then I guess I'd be going to hell...
> 
> ...


 

Not really.  Abusers are mastermind manipulators.  I know of one in my congregation that not only abused her, when she divorced him, he lured her to their property/previous home together on some "business," killed her, then weighted her down and threw her in the pond.  His friends still stuck by him after it all.  This was an exemplary wife and mother...went to Mass every morning of every day and raised her children in the parish school.  He had his friends...manipulated them for support as well.  But "it's all her fault."


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## divya (Apr 27, 2009)

kayte said:


> I don't get and am sad and angry about the post.
> why that was necessary....we know what rape is
> and it is completely insensitive to post that
> if there are members who survived or still healing from that trauma.



Really sorry you were offended but it seems like she was trying to explain the brutality at all...and why she would not want to stay with anyone who did that to her. People have discussed rape very explicitly here. It's not to be disrespectful and not saying that she has, but how would you _really_ know that she hasn't experienced exactly what she is speaking of? I commend her for apologizing but it's not necessarily insensitive or meant to be. JMHO...


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## aribell (Apr 27, 2009)

kurlybella said:


> remarriage is not allowed unless widowed or abandoned. that's clear cut in the bible. i'm talking actual verses, not manmade interpretations.
> 
> of course we should not stay in a violent relationship, however, there is no verse that says we can DIVORCE for this reason, which is the point of my thread.
> 
> ...


 
Well, I didn't say that women in such situations should "divorce" their husband, so there wasn't a man-made interpretation given.  I think that Jesus said what He said, and that's that.  There's nothing about Jesus' teachings on divorce that imply that a woman being abused must remain under the same roof as her husband.  Besides, such physical violence being illegal, the husband should be in jail anyway.

What would I personally do if I found myself in that situation right now?  Leave my husband and remain separated permanently.  I probably would not consider myself "divorced" or seek to become legally divorced, nor would I see myself as free to remarry, since I would still be married.  People may or may not be able to accept that, but I genuinely believe that God does not force us to marry and it being a free choice, if I marry then I have to take full responsibility for that choice, good or bad.  So, I think that is a consistent biblical position.

I'm not sure that there are any more verses to be added than the ones that have already been pointed out.


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## msa (Apr 27, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Not really.  Abusers are mastermind manipulators.




IMO, denial can be very strong and render a person completely blind to someone's faults. But, if I ended up with an abuser I'd have to question myself first. Did I ask all the hard questions? Did I know this person well enough? Did I make sure to get to know his family and friends? Did we have counseling beforehand? Did I ignore signs or red flags? 

Abusers may be great manipulators, but I don't believe that they can *completely* hide their true nature/abilities from EVERYONE. At some point they abused something or someone and in the interest of protecting myself and my future children, it's my job to find that out. If I don't take the necessary precautions, then I think I have some fault in the situation.


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## divya (Apr 27, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> Well, I didn't say that women in such situations should "divorce" their husband, so there wasn't a man-made interpretation given.  I think that Jesus said what He said, and that's that.  There's nothing about Jesus' teachings on divorce that imply that a woman being abused must remain under the same roof as her husband.  Besides, such physical violence being illegal, the husband should be in jail anyway.
> 
> What would I personally do if I found myself in that situation right now?  Leave my husband and remain separated permanently.  I probably would not consider myself "divorced," nor free to remarry.  People may or may not be able to accept that, but I genuinely believe that God does not force us to marry and it being a free choice, if I marry then I have to take full responsibility for that choice, good or bad.  So, I think that is a consistent position.



Beautifully said. I agree wholeheartedly.


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## kurlybella (Apr 27, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> Well, I didn't say that women in such situations should "divorce" their husband, so there wasn't a man-made interpretation given.  I think that Jesus said what He said, and that's that.  There's nothing about Jesus' teachings on divorce that imply that a woman being abused must remain under the same roof as her husband.  Besides, such physical violence being illegal, the husband should be in jail anyway.
> 
> What would I personally do if I found myself in that situation right now?  Leave my husband and remain separated permanently.  I probably would not consider myself "divorced" or seek to become legally divorced, nor would I see myself as free to remarry, since I would still be married.  People may or may not be able to accept that, but I genuinely believe that God does not force us to marry and it being a free choice, if I marry then I have to take full responsibility for that choice, good or bad.  So, I think that is a consistent biblical position.
> 
> I'm not sure that there are any more verses to be added than the ones that have already been pointed out.



wow, very, very interesting perspective. and thanks so much for sharing!! 

to me this is a by the book reaction to the situation since i don't see rape as adultery as i've always believed that when jesus said sexual immorality he meant cheating - but this has many interpretations for many different people.


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## Almaz (Apr 27, 2009)

But there are millions of women all around the world that stay in abusive marriages because as they say in Arabic Inshallah if it is G-d's will. 

How can you serve G-d in a proper way when you are being raped and Getting your behind whipped six ways from the Sabbath. I Truly believe that I dont' think G-d intended for anyone to be in an Abusive relationship and stay there to please G-d. I don't think G-d would be that cruel and unjust for you to stay there and constantly being hurt and molested by someone that SUPPOSEDLY loves you.

This is not G-dly and this is not love. No matter what religion you are. You would not want anyone to be in that situation so why would you want to be in that situation. For Years I have seen women stay in bad abusive relationships almost to the point of death  and death itself because they feel that it is G-d's will that they are in this situation. And there are men you will pull this religious doctrine out of the blue to Justify the abuse and keep it going because they too say it is G-ds will and you MADE me hit you. 

I volunteer at a women's shelter and I see the revolving door of women are TRY AND TRY AND TRY to make it work with these abusive men but they get the revolving door going. 

They go to chuch they pray their husbands say that they are going to reform they act right for a hot minute to make the women THINK that he has changed and then it starts ALL over again and they come right back to the Shelter. 

Now I am in now way saying that an Abuser cannot be reformed through pray and deep serious counseling  and I do mean deep introspect as to why they are so angry and why they hit and abuse the people that they are supposed to love ususally they were abused themselves but some I have run across are just arseholes Period and they do it because they are sadistic and they can. 

But why burden the brunt of that just so you can get your rewards in heaven or to say that you are serving  G-d. That is myrtardomis, Nihilistic and fatalistic  to me and I cannot justify it on any religous doctrine Mine and everyone elses to stay in an abusive situation. 

3 years ago we had a woman at the shelter that was going to move to Atlanta we helped her get a job through a network we have down there.  Well she was ALL set to go and her husband was doing the same ole snow job. Oh baby you KNOWSSS I LOVVEEESSS you. I wil never EVA hit you again. HE swore before G-d and man in front of the preacher in front of everyone that he is okay and he has repented and profusely apologised for hitting her and causing her so much pain. Okay over time handling this woman's case I have seen her come back and forth and time and time again he eyes are blackened  blind in one of them almost her teeth are missing her nose was broken 3 times bruises all over her body and bald patches from her husband dragging her by her hair. 

the last time was because...............................................................

All because she was late coming home on the Train so SHE MUST have been with another *****h as he puts it. Actually yeah since you put it that way MY COUSIN who is a plastic surgeon who was going to patch her face up pro bono and my other cousin who was going to patch her mouth up with some new teeth PRO BONO and as you all know dental work aint' cheap.  Well she got all the work done and she was looking good and feeling good about herself. Soon as she was about to leave  months later he was like let me meet you someplace lets have dinner and talk I dont' want you to go maybe I should go with you to start a new life. I was like DON"T tell him what you are doing GET THE HELL OUTTA Chicago and MOVE to Atlanta and Follow your dreams and have a better life for you and your children.  Well he follows her home after dinner to her sisters house Barges in the door starts a HUGE fight trying to prevent her from leaving Chicago when she SAID that he was going to go with her and and shoots her dead in front of her children. But before he shoots her her sister told me that he said OH now you got all this work done you thanks you Pretty now. I am NOT going to let you go to Atlanta and be with some *****h I will kill you AND the kids. You ain't nothing but a used up BEYATCH. If I can't have you NO ONE can. You ain't no Christian you supposed to STAND by your husband cause that is what the Scriptures say !!!!!???????

She is dead the man in serving life in Jail. The kids have no parents.  Her sister and her told me before she was killed that her husband and her were getting back together and they are moving to Atlanta together to start a new life. And now that he is going to church it is all good. I KNEW he was just playing a game with her faith and I was right.

At the funeral this man had the NERVE to call the house and say can someone go to the house and MOVE my stuff to my mothers cause I am going to be locked up for awhile. WTH. At the shelter this is not the exception this is the norm. 

That was the day I was thinking about resigning from the Shelter because it was too much to handle at the time becuase there was so much promise and hope GONE POOF just like that. 

This is what I have experienced and it hurts to see lovely women in this situation. In Africa and the Middle East it is different because Women don't have the resources like the do here to get out of this situation and it is REALLY REALLY dangerous in some places Like Jordan and Saudi Arabia. As beautiful and as wonderful as those countries are there are still women's issues that need to be addressed. 

Let me ask another question and no offense intended I am just going by what I see with abusive situations.

Do you think that you can be a servant of G-d on this earth when you are abused and your children are abused and you are depressed, rejected beat up and beat down hurt discombobulated, confused and possibly DEAD? Or do you really think that you have to stay in an abusive situation or you will not be considered a good Religous person

Love should not hurt


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## Almaz (Apr 28, 2009)

Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy. Abusers are usually great Sociopaths that can fool everyone into believing that they are these GREAT and wonderful people. Sociopaths can have some of the BEST BS detectors fooled. And when the truth FINALLY comes out people are like HIM HER NAWWW HE/SHE was the NICEST person a great neighbour and all around good person I just cannot believe that they would do something like that. I just cannot believe it. 

Sociopaths and abusers are great actors






msa said:


> IMO, denial can be very strong and render a person completely blind to someone's faults. But, if I ended up with an abuser I'd have to question myself first. Did I ask all the hard questions? Did I know this person well enough? Did I make sure to get to know his family and friends? Did we have counseling beforehand? Did I ignore signs or red flags?
> 
> Abusers may be great manipulators, but I don't believe that they can *completely* hide their true nature/abilities from EVERYONE. At some point they abused something or someone and in the interest of protecting myself and my future children, it's my job to find that out. If I don't take the necessary precautions, then I think I have some fault in the situation.


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## kurlybella (Apr 28, 2009)

divya said:


> Not sure if I answered your question directly initially. Personally, I believe it is wrong to _divorce_ him. You should physically remove yourself from being around him though, for your own safety.



i get what you are saying and this again is a by the book response. this is amazing, i've just never heard more than 0 people say that they would stay before today. they just always seek out some translation of the bible that says that they can leave.

and you know, i should be clear here, i don't agree that you should only be able to leave your husband if he sleeps with someone else. there are lots of ways he can bring down your family and hurt it, therefore i feel we should be able to divorce under those circumstances.

however, jesus did not say it was okay.

i'm unconventional when it comes to how i feel about many things in the bible, however, i did want to start a discourse on this topic.

thanks for responding ladies!


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## Renewed1 (Apr 28, 2009)

I found this on a site.  The person was asking about fornication but it pertains to rape (or other sexual sins) as well.  As for physical abuse (hitting, etc) use COMMON SENSE, separate yourself from the danger.  You can't divorce unless a sexual sin was committed; which in my personal experiences from friends.  If your hubby is beating on you more and likely he's cheating (adultery) grounds for divorce. 

Perhaps then, the first step should be to determine what the *biblical definition of "sexual immorality"* is and what the writers of the New Testament understood it to be. The New American Standard New Testament Greek Lexicon transliterates the word "porneia" and defines it as:

1. illicit sexual intercourse (rape, etc)
a. adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
b. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
c. sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11

Hebrews 13:4 Amp.

Let marriage be held in honor (esteemed worthy, precious, of great price, and especially dear) in all things. And thus let the marriage bed be undefiled (kept undishonored); for God will judge and punish the unchaste [all guilty of sexual vice] and adulterous.


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## kurlybella (Apr 28, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Let me ask another question and no offense intended I am just going by what I see with abusive situations.
> 
> Do you think that you can be a servant of G-d on this earth when you are abused and your children are abused and you are depressed, rejected beat up and beat down hurt discombobulated, confused and possibly DEAD? Or do you really think that you have to stay in an abusive situation or you will not be considered a good Religous person
> 
> Love should not hurt



your story!!!


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## divya (Apr 28, 2009)

kurlybella said:


> *i get what you are saying and this again is a by the book response. this is amazing, i've just never heard more than 0 people say that they would stay before today. *they just always seek out some translation of the bible that says that they can leave.
> 
> and you know, i should be clear here, i don't agree that you should only be able to leave your husband if he sleeps with someone else. there are lots of ways he can bring down your family and hurt it, therefore i feel we should be able to divorce under those circumstances.
> 
> ...



Yes, there is some of us who do believe in physical separation rather than divorce. There are quite a few different views about whether or not divorce is allowed in other circumstances. For me, the Scriptures seem very clear though. 

Also, I actually don't believe that adultery only involves _sleeping_ with someone else, but that's a whole different story though.


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## msa (Apr 28, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy. Abusers are usually great Sociopaths that can fool everyone into believing that they are these GREAT and wonderful people. Sociopaths can have some of the BEST BS detectors fooled. And when the truth FINALLY comes out people are like HIM HER NAWWW HE/SHE was the NICEST person a great neighbour and all around good person I just cannot believe that they would do something like that. I just cannot believe it.
> 
> Sociopaths and abusers are great actors



There are very few true sociopaths running around so most people have never encountered any. As far as abusers go, they don't suddenly start abusing late in their lives so it's safe to say, someone knew or suspected what type of person they were before you entered the picture.

Anyway, we'll just have to agree to disagree. In my experience, abusers don't have to hide who and what they are because people (family members, girlfriends, etc.) let them continue on with no consequences. They don't just flip the script once they've been with you a few years, there are always clues beforehand.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Apr 28, 2009)

msa said:


> IMO, denial can be very strong and render a person completely blind to someone's faults. But, if I ended up with an abuser I'd have to question myself first. Did I ask all the hard questions? Did I know this person well enough? Did I make sure to get to know his family and friends? Did we have counseling beforehand? Did I ignore signs or red flags?
> 
> Abusers may be great manipulators, but I don't believe that they can *completely* hide their true nature/abilities from EVERYONE. At some point they abused something or someone and in the interest of protecting myself and my future children, it's my job to find that out. If I don't take the necessary precautions, then I think I have some fault in the situation.



I know what you mean, some fault.  But I'm just saying that women cannot see all there is to the iceberg before your boat hits it so if one finds oneself in such, they shouldn't necessarily blame themselves solely.  Family and such, that's what we call sendig the family representative lol.  Sure, there are some signs...but too often, people not in that situation will wonder how the heck a woman ended up like that...and nobody knows until they get in one then they write a book lol.  I'm not at all saying not to be careful.  We have to use more of our intuition about people.


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## Almaz (Apr 28, 2009)

Ture to some extent but you'd be surprised and there many more Sociopaths walking around than beter realise and true there are signs that people see or choose not to. With some of the women at Shelter are nice educated women from good familes they NEVER thought that would be in that situation until they are in it





msa said:


> There are very few true sociopaths running around so most people have never encountered any. As far as abusers go, they don't suddenly start abusing late in their lives so it's safe to say, someone knew or suspected what type of person they were before you entered the picture.
> 
> Anyway, we'll just have to agree to disagree. In my experience, abusers don't have to hide who and what they are because people (family members, girlfriends, etc.) let them continue on with no consequences. They don't just flip the script once they've been with you a few years, there are always clues beforehand.


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## coconow2007 (Apr 28, 2009)

sexual immorality encompasses rape, it is immoral to rape someone - therefore ok to divorce him


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## DarlingNikki (Apr 28, 2009)

kurlybella said:


> remarriage is not allowed unless widowed or abandoned. that's clear cut in the bible. i'm talking actual verses, not manmade interpretations.



I hate to say this, but the Bible is full of inconsistencies.   Deuteronomy 24 doesn't classify a remarriage a sin (e.g. adultery).  If you read the passage, the woman is allowed to remarry after her husband has issued her a divorce.  The only "detestable" thing mentioned is if the woman returns to a man she has already divorced _after she has been remarried to another_.



> 24  If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house,  2 and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man,  3 and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies,  4 then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the Lord. Do not bring sin upon the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance


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## divya (Apr 28, 2009)

DarlingNikki said:


> I hate to say this, but the Bible is full of inconsistencies.   Deuteronomy 24 doesn't classify a remarriage a sin (e.g. adultery).  If you read the passage, the woman is allowed to remarry after her husband has issued her a divorce.  The only "detestable" thing mentioned is if the woman returns to a man she has already divorced _after she has been remarried to another_.



Guess I don't see that as an inconsistency because of the context. The Bible is also a history book, and it gives an account of God's relationship with Israel. Those were laws given to their culture. That does not mean that is how God truly intended things, but sometime they were given because of the time and customs. If He had no done so, who knows what would have become of the people He chose to be His witnesses to the world.

For example, Deuteronomy 22 states that when a woman is unbethrothed, and a man rapes her, then he must marry her. That sounds despicable to us now but it likely makes sense then. No other men would probably marry her because of that, so the Lord instructed that the man marry her so that someone provide for her. He is never allowed to divorce her and he must pay her father.


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## DarlingNikki (Apr 28, 2009)

divya said:


> Guess I don't see that as an inconsistency because of the context. The Bible is also a history book, and it gives an account of God's relationship with Israel. Those were laws given to their culture. That does not mean that is how God truly intended things, but sometime they were given because of the time and customs. If He had no done so, who knows what would have become of the people He chose to be His witnesses to the world.
> 
> For example, Deuteronomy 22 states that when a woman is unbethrothed, and a man rapes her, then he must marry her. That sounds despicable to us now but it likely makes sense then. No other men would probably marry her because of that, so the Lord instructed that the man marry her so that someone provide for her. He is never allowed to divorce her and he must pay her father.



See, this is where I always get confused.  So since the Bible is also a history book, with each passage tailored to the customs of a certain time period, would it be a fair to assert that most scriptures are now outdated?  How do we differentiate between what should and should not be heeded in this day and age?  Is this a man-made decision ?  I mean, I understand the OT vs NT, but I have seen scripture from the OT used more times than I can count to validate an argument.  For example, Leviticus when referring to gay's...


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## Shimmie (Apr 28, 2009)

No..... 

Men are commanded to love their wives; not abuse them.   To be men who protects and embraces them; to treat their wives as the tender one, least their prayers be hindered.   

A man who rapes his wife is a violent, sick and perverted of mind and spirit.  Not only is he abusing his wife's body, he is abusing her spirit. 

Not God....   Not a Godly spirit.


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## aribell (Apr 28, 2009)

DarlingNikki said:


> See, this is where I always get confused. So since the Bible is also a history book, with each passage tailored to the customs of a certain time period, would it be a fair to assert that most scriptures are now outdated? How do we differentiate between what should and should not be heeded in this day and age? Is this a man-made decision ? I mean, I understand the OT vs NT, but I have seen scripture from the OT used more times than I can count to validate an argument. For example, Leviticus when referring to gay's...


 
I think in reading the Bible from cover to cover, you really can see the things that are consistent all the way through and the things that are particular to certain places in time.  The Lord gave certain commandments to Israel in order to separate them from the surrounding culture and as a symbolic foreshadowing of Jesus' coming.  And in the New Testament in Galatians, Hebrews, and Acts in particular, the Apostle Paul (and Peter in Acts) addresses the relationship of the Old Testament laws and rituals to the New Israel, the Church.

Also, in reading Deuteronomy and Leviticus you can see laws that are not only symbolic or ceremonial, like the eating of certain foods, but are about justice and righteousness and our relationship to one another.  So the ceremonial laws of the Old Covenant are fulfilled in Jesus and no longer hold, but the laws about immorality are consistent all the way through.  Homosexuality in the Bible is a sin from Genesis to Revelation.  So is adultery, greed, envy, neglect of the poor, etc.  And also, there were things that God _allowed _in the OT that didn't necessarily reflect His ways, like men having multiple wives.  And Jesus even says that God _permitted _divorce because of "the hardness of your hearts," but it still wasn't His will.

I think for the whole Bible to make sense we have to get what the whole story is first and that the Bible is not just a collection of various commands, but an unfolding narrative.


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## aribell (Apr 28, 2009)

Like Kurlybella said, I have also always understood the sexual immorality spoken of by Jesus to mean adultery.  The only problem I see with using the term "sexual immorality" in a broad sense, to encompass any kind of sexual sin is that it encompasses too much.  Lust is an aspect of sexual immorality.  So is a husband's looking at pornography.  I don't think those things can be grounds for divorce.

But maybe there is a better definition of adultery than just sleeping with someone who is not your spouse.  The words describing sexual sins in the bible are tricky for translators since there wasn't necessarily a 1 to 1 correspondence between the words they used to convey a certain concept and the words we have to convey a certain concept.  I think some stuff is lost in translation.


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## Shimmie (Apr 28, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> I think in reading the Bible from cover to cover, you really can see the things that are consistent all the way through and the things that are particular to certain places in time. The Lord gave certain commandments to Israel in order to separate them from the surrounding culture and as a symbolic foreshadowing of Jesus' coming. And in the New Testament in Galatians, Hebrews, and Acts in particular, the Apostle Paul (and Peter in Acts) addresses the relationship of the Old Testament laws and rituals to the New Israel, the Church.
> 
> Also, in reading Deuteronomy and Leviticus you can see laws that are not only symbolic or ceremonial, like the eating of certain foods, but are about justice and righteousness and our relationship to one another. So the ceremonial laws of the Old Covenant are fulfilled in Jesus and no longer hold, but the laws about immorality are consistent all the way through. Homosexuality in the Bible is a sin from Genesis to Revelation. So is adultery, greed, envy, neglect of the poor, etc. And also, there were things that God _allowed _in the OT that didn't necessarily reflect His ways, like men having multiple wives. And Jesus even says that God _permitted _divorce because of "the hardness of your hearts," but it still wasn't His will.
> 
> I think for the whole Bible to make sense we have to get what the whole story is first and that the Bible is not just a collection of various commands, but an unfolding narrative.


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## kayte (May 2, 2009)

> Really sorry you were offended but it seems like she was trying to explain the brutality at all...and why she would not want to stay with anyone who did that to her. People have discussed rape very explicitly here. It's not to be disrespectful and not saying that she has, but how would you really know that she hasn't experienced exactly what she is speaking of? I commend her for apologizing but it's not necessarily insensitive or meant to be. JMHO...


 
as one has been the survivor of an attemped rape which involved a knife 
I found the description..{it seemed evil to me} and *completely unneccesary*....
we know what rape is ..what's involved...what brutality is..
does that make it okay...to say whatever ..you want?



> not necessarily insensitive


I dont even know what this means....


certainly there can be contrustructive dialogue about this subject but the 
*OP could have made her point without.....that commentary..*

& your focus on commending _an apology_? 
~dont much care~ 

it's not about not being explicit..nothing wrong inherently wrong with explicitness...and offended? that's not my word..rather..I found it first sad, and then harmful...and I'm also sad to say this.. but,in terms of respect, there is none for the OP's post or your post defending this and admiring her apology 

Let's not even use the word _Christian _..but..
Spiritually minded,caring individuals employ restraint in graphic description of violence out of love for others...and out of a sense of responsbility for something greater than gratifying an immediate moment 

presumably, women in this thread are okay with it and that's fine..
what about those women who were hurt by it? ....I was not the only one affected negatively...or hurt...just the only one who spoke up. 

Ephesians 5:3-4) . . .Let fornication and uncleanness of every sort or greediness  not even be mentioned among you,  just as it befits holy people; 4 neither shameful conduct nor foolish talking nor obscene jesting, things which are not becoming, but rather the giving of thanks.


Ephesians 4:29 tells us, "Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen."


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## kayte (May 2, 2009)

> i'm sorry that you feel that it's insensitive, i didn't feel that way. we post very descriptive things on this board, however i apologize if you feel offended.




no of course you don't view it as insensitive...that's the nature of insensitivity and cruelty
the person feels entitled to say whatever they want~ 
it doesn't affect them, you follow?....so they have _no personal investment_

{unless they have love/Christ in their hearts} 

to choose their words with care on such a subject that some women are healing from 

it says in the bible ....regardless of all the laughing smilies you used...
God cannot be mocked..
if that means anything to you


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## Blossssom (May 2, 2009)

WhipEffectz1 said:


> Some women like that kind of ravishment.......





LOL!


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## Blossssom (May 2, 2009)

kurlybella said:


> omg i'm laughing so loud at this response and that smiley!



LOL!

*breathe, Blossssom, BREATHE*


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## trenise (May 2, 2009)

There are so many points of view that can be taken on this. I know of people who have been raped, but mostly physically abused. I'll tell you that my grandmother was in the situation before I was even born and my mother had to grow up seeing it. My grandmother used to talk to me about it when I was a child. Really, I knew too much. She stayed because she'd never had a job, had children, and nowhere else to go. If you are depending on that man to take care of you, you stay. How many confident professional college educated big banking women paying the mortgage do you think would put up with this?

Controversal thought: could it be that the abused woman is getting something from the relationship? place to stay, bills paid, perceived security, upkeeping an image for all those people she doesn't want to know her business?


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## blazingthru (May 2, 2009)

[/quoteAbusers may be great manipulators, but I don't believe that they can *completely* hide their true nature/abilities from EVERYONE. At some point they abused something or someone and in the interest of protecting myself and my future children, it's my job to find that out. If I don't take the necessary precautions, then I think I have some fault in the situation.[/quote]

They can hide it, they work so hard at hiding it it comes out but unless you know about abuse you wont' see it you just think something is off with that person. 
I know woman stay with abusers becuase they do not have any hope. they do not have a strong relationship with the Lord and or fellowship with church members and have some means of support to leave thier husbands.  You  need a lot of support to leave your husband, your home, your only (maybe) possible means of support. Besides by the time it has escalated to violence he has already broken you in many other ways. Its not black and White like many think. 
Divorce is a selfish way of ending Marriage its a way to say God you do not have the power to fix this,  When if we had followed him completely from the begining it would have never went down this way.  but since we are in the mess it is safe to separate from one another. We can separate and try to work through forgiveness from what our spouses did to abuse us, its no different then what people do out in the street you forgive them and put it in the hands of the Lord that is all you can do anyway.  More then likely your husband will cheat on you if he hasn't already and you will have grounds for divorce but I really honestly think you have to work on forgiveness first. THen you have to work on your relationship with the lord and healing.  If its in his will for you to find another mate then God will bless you with it. but your reasoning for the divorce has to be pure, it can't be out of anger or revenge or satisfaction ( yeah he did it now I got the grounds) I'm taking him to the cleaners this all comes from the devil. If you want the blessings from the Lord you do all things according to his will and purpose. He understands everything we are going through.


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## MissYocairis (May 6, 2009)

*poof*

This was only up for a limited time.


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