# Is there a Curse on Black People?



## softblackcotton (Jun 18, 2011)

When I think of most things negative and hated by people around the world, black people or black-related things usually have something to do with it. 



in general, our neighborhoods are run-down
 we are mostly poor (paycheck to paycheck) with little generational  wealth
little to no respect of reverence for black women
broken families and homes
African civil unrest and crooked politicians
European countries owning majority of wealth of African nations
black physical features are hated by most other nations 
racial discrimination from everyone including ourselves
other nations benefitting the most from black-related products (selling out)
generally black-businesses don't do as well as other nations
black people general inability be cohesive "crabs in a barrel" seems to be a genetic trait of ours. 
just in general, black people always get the short end of the stick

What happened? I know God loves everyone, but why does He allow one particular segment of the human race to be treated like scrapings at the bottom of the barrel. In the Bible, Old testament, whenever the Israelites went through some horrible events and curses, it was because they had angered God by sinning in some way. However, EVERYONE sins today, enormously. How is that, in general, the black people seem to be suffering much more for our sins than other people? We were not even His chosen people in the Bible, so how could we have brought these curses down upon ourselves? 

If you can answer, please try to include Biblical evidence if you can.


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## 8HoursFromHome (Jun 18, 2011)

nevermind.................


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## softblackcotton (Jun 18, 2011)

8HoursFromHome said:


> Muslims please chime in...
> 
> I had a conversation with a devout Muslim gentleman many years ago about this.  He explained to me that blacks have already had their time at the top.  He also stressed that when we were there, the world was a MUCH better place.
> 
> He didn't get into too much more detail about it and it didn't really make me feel any better.



By time at the top, did he mean at the pinnacle of Ancient Egypt's Power? I know black people were the rulers of Ancient Egypt. That is why are the European archaeologists and Arabs who lived in Egypt broke the noses off 90% of the statues and busts. That way no one could tell the Ancient Egyptians were black by their noses.


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## Guitarhero (Jun 18, 2011)

Nope, my G-d judges me solely by my own heart and actions.  The problem is not a curse that G-d sustains, it's the evil in people's hearts.  The more I live, the more I realize that there are many people who are oppressed in this world, not just Black people. It's only a matter of perspective.  Of course, we westerners like to see things through the colonizer's eyes (by default) and without truly thinking about it, this Euro/Caucasian/White mindset have been carried throughout the seasons of man.  It's the same mindset whether of the white ancient Berbers against the ancient Black Berbers, Medo-Persians (I'm aware of the diff. races of Persians), the Syriacs, Macedonians, western modern Europeans....same colonizing mindset based upon some self-perceived superiority according to the lighter race.  

Unfortunately, scripture is often used to bend towards many viewpoints when it was not pointing to that specific historical detail at all.


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## softblackcotton (Jun 18, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> Nope, my G-d judges me solely by my own heart and actions.  The problem is not a curse that G-d sustains, it's the evil in people's hearts.  The more I live, the more I realize that there are many people who are oppressed in this world, not just Black people. It's only a matter of perspective.  Of course, we westerners like to see things through the colonizer's eyes (by default) and without truly thinking about it, this Euro/Caucasian/White mindset have been carried throughout the seasons of man.  It's the same mindset whether of the white ancient Berbers against the ancient Black Berbers, Medo-Persians (I'm aware of the diff. races of Persians), the Syriacs, Macedonians, western modern Europeans....same colonizing mindset based upon some self-perceived superiority according to the lighter race.
> 
> Unfortunately, scripture is often used to bend towards many viewpoints when it was not pointing to that specific historical detail at all.



I understand and appreciate your viewpoint. However, I know God judges based on the individual, but there has been times in the Bible when a whole group of people suffered based on the sins of one. For example, when King David took the census against God's will and God struck the Israelites with plague because of David's sin and distrust in God (2 Samuel  CH. 24). Also you must wonder why the people of lighter skin and more European features seem to have had more of an historical colonial advantage more oft than not.


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## wish4length (Jun 18, 2011)

softblackcotton said:


> When I think of most things negative and hated by people around the world, black people or black-related things usually have something to do with it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Free will perhaps? Many of the things you listed are brought about by lack of knowledge. Now, being physically hated, we can't control....although women are paying to have our lips and hips...
But we live paycheck to paycheck and have little to no generational wealth because we are not informed. Our broken families and homes stem from mistreatment of black women. How do our sons learn to love black women when daddy didn't or loved too many(3 kids and 3 baby's mamas)?
We suffer from self-hate (light skin vs dark) which is getting pretty darn old.
As far as black businesses, I've noticed when we own something everyone feels entitled to a "hook up". If you notice many business(not even black owned) move out of the "hood" because employees(us) tend to give "hook ups". I think that would not happen as often if these businesses would stay in our neighborhoods............
We are our biggest enemy and it's up to us to educate one another, but we have to be willing to be educated as well......


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## Lovelylocs (Jun 18, 2011)

softblackcotton said:


> When I think of most things negative and hated by people around the world, black people or black-related things usually have something to do with it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Maybe you just think about black people more than other groups.


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## Guitarhero (Jun 19, 2011)

softblackcotton said:


> I understand and appreciate your viewpoint. However, I know God judges based on the individual, but there has been times in the Bible when a whole group of people suffered based on the sins of one. For example, when King David took the census against God's will and God struck the Israelites with plague because of David's sin and distrust in God (2 Samuel  CH. 24). Also you must wonder why the people of lighter skin and more European features seem to have had more of an historical colonial advantage more oft than not.




Jesus came and set the captives free.  You go to heaven based upon your own heart and G-d's mercy to the individual.  Nobody is grandfathered into salvation.  It's a matter of colonial advantage?  I don't believe so imho, it's a matter of perspective.  Y'all know I am Native American...Black Native American...but still Native mindset.  They have no advantage...they are like naughty little children.  We are still waiting for them to grow up and become men and women and to stop harming the earth that sustains us all as well as to stop killing their brothers.  How is someone who is hell-bent on destruction at any type of advantage?  That is evil.  You know, we have prophecies about a white brother who would come in the end of times who would bring healing the world over but he would not be like the other white "brothers."    Before somebody else goes on this "why Jesus gottabe white?"  His icons and other historical images from that time frame, long before Europeans left their caves to get unified religion.  St. Luke painted his mother and him, the historian Josephus gave descriptions of his appearance etc....but some of the apostles were certainly BLACK.  Jesus was not...but that's beside the point, actually.  This is just my stance.  

They have no advantage if life is far beyond just the physical.    The punishments occurred way back in history with the expulsions from Israel into Babylonian captivity.  The Jews have been slaves many times.  But there is certainly evidence in scripture that a people would be taken from Africa to another land in chains.  It didn't indicate they were Jewish (if I'm not mistaken...I've read the Chabadniks on this issue before).  Unless you have Jewish ancestry, you are not Israel.  Of course, there's spiritual Israel that has been grated into that vine via the church and the salvation that has come through the Son of David.  The slavs of Europe felt the same exact way for centuries. I know this has hit people of color...but it wasn't the case until these imperialists came in and began their perpetual destruction.  G-d didn't design Black people to be under anybody else and it's not always been the case.  

But OP, please do not misunderstand, I know exactly how you feel.  I look at it differently now.    G-d will have an answer some day.  But we are not cursed.  How can you love G-d and be cursed?  Everytime I look at something on television, I see Black people are automatically start praising G-d for their blessings!  It's in the language, the expression, the living.  I know others get embarassed but I see it as a blessed people.


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## Shimmie (Jun 19, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> *Jesus came and set the captives free*.
> 
> But we are not cursed.
> 
> ...



Beautiful post...

How can you love God and be cursed?   

The most beautiful Truth of all...


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## Prudent1 (Jun 20, 2011)

Great question. One I struggled with for YEARS. I had some hatred and envy in my heart towards other races. I wasn't not happy about it either. So, like with everything else I can't solve on my own (like really what can _I_ solve?) I prayed posing my questions to God. Here is what God revealed to me ( and I warn you you may not like it). Don't ever take my word for it. Go to him in prayer, meditate on your word, get it straight from the source.

Even though other races have done _horrific_ unspeakable things, they did do some other things right. They tithed and they were givers. They did it while they were broke, unsaved, and ignorant. They just did it. It doesn't erase their other sins nor does it get them a _into heaven free pass _but it does count- *more than we realize.* I.kid.you.not this is what he revealed to me. You see, God's kingdom works on the principles of seed, time, and harvest. Tithing and giving are acts of sowing seed. In due time harvest comes-period. Did they enjoy a godly _full_ harvest w/o serious consequences some of which we don't have knowledge of-NO. There are natural laws we are familiar with like, Newton's law of gravity, Biogenesis, Kepler's laws of planetary motion, and the like. There are spiritual laws that exist as well. The laws of marriage, faith, sowing and reaping, sin and death- you get the picture. If I stand on a 20 story building beside a WW who is a devout skinhead and we both fall off side of the building with nothing breaking our falls, we both come down irregardless of who we are, what we believe in, whether we are good women etc. We are both in all likelyhood going to be seriously hurt. Likewise, when a person tithes and gives the passages in Mal. 3:8 become active- irregardless to the ppl doing the giving/tithing. Get this, laws, no matter what kind, don't have to be believed in, understood by us, nada, to be effective. They work once activated no matter what.. The only variable being the differing degrees of spiritual laws. 

Please understand that life is not fair. God is not a fair god (fairness tends to be a largely human concept like ethnicities and all of these different religions) . God _is_ righteous and declares that over and over again in his word. Think of righteousness vs fairness in terms of wealth vs rich, or wisdom vs smart/ knowledgable, or in LHCF terms full healthy APL vs 3 strings of see through, chewed up BSL. You feelin' me? So, in the end and or at the appointed time he will exact righteousness for all.

So yes, there are real barriers that do exist but a lot of the things that hold us back are from us to us. That's one heck of a bitter pill to swallow. The good news is today, right now we can start to sow good seeds to bring forth good harvests.

Check your heart, check your giving, check your love walk, check your living, check your prayer life, check your kin and friends. You will find out why you struggle.

BTW- I've thanked those posts that stated other known factors explaining the real unfairness ppl of color experience.


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## Detroit2Dallas (Jun 20, 2011)

I dont agree with the above statement, not with Blacks. I have my own opinion, but since I'm nursing a head ache currently I'm just not in the mood to type a whole bunch. I dont believe blacks are cursed nor do I believe that we arent givers and tithers and other races are.


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## Shimmie (Jun 20, 2011)

NaturalDetroit said:


> I dont agree with the above statement, not with Blacks. I have my own opinion, but since I'm nursing a head ache currently I'm just not in the mood to type a whole bunch. I dont believe blacks are cursed nor do I believe that we arent givers and tithers and other races are.



  In Jesus' Name, you are healed and relieved of the total cause of the headache.  

Thank you Lord Jesus for easing the tension in our sister's system, let your Blood flow freely to each and every area which needs your heaing touch, without and throughout her body and all and whom surrounds her.   

Let all around her, be at your loving peace.  

For this we thank you with all of our hearts... Amen and Amein...

Drink some water, precious one.   Small sips, which will help cleanse the toxins from your system.


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## Detroit2Dallas (Jun 20, 2011)

Thanks Shimmie, I actually started to feel better before I read that comment and then I saw and thanked your post.


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## charmingt (Jun 20, 2011)

Remember, Christ has redeemed us from the 'curse' of the law as it is written "Cursed is anyone that hangeth from a tree."  Jesus bore ALL curses and anything else for each individual. So we are redeemed. So redeemed.  Jesus is the curse breaker.  I must believe on Him.


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## softblackcotton (Jun 22, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> Jesus came and set the captives free.  You go to heaven based upon your own heart and G-d's mercy to the individual.  Nobody is grandfathered into salvation.  It's a matter of colonial advantage?  I don't believe so imho, it's a matter of perspective.  Y'all know I am Native American...Black Native American...but still Native mindset.  They have no advantage...they are like naughty little children.  We are still waiting for them to grow up and become men and women and to stop harming the earth that sustains us all as well as to stop killing their brothers.  How is someone who is hell-bent on destruction at any type of advantage?  That is evil.  You know, we have prophecies about a white brother who would come in the end of times who would bring healing the world over but he would not be like the other white "brothers."    Before somebody else goes on this "why Jesus gottabe white?"  His icons and other historical images from that time frame, long before Europeans left their caves to get unified religion.  St. Luke painted his mother and him, the historian Josephus gave descriptions of his appearance etc....but some of the apostles were certainly BLACK.  Jesus was not...but that's beside the point, actually.  This is just my stance.
> 
> They have no advantage if life is far beyond just the physical.    The punishments occurred way back in history with the expulsions from Israel into Babylonian captivity.  The Jews have been slaves many times.  But there is certainly evidence in scripture that a people would be taken from Africa to another land in chains.  It didn't indicate they were Jewish (if I'm not mistaken...I've read the Chabadniks on this issue before).  Unless you have Jewish ancestry, you are not Israel.  Of course, there's spiritual Israel that has been grated into that vine via the church and the salvation that has come through the Son of David.  The slavs of Europe felt the same exact way for centuries. I know this has hit people of color...but it wasn't the case until these imperialists came in and began their perpetual destruction.  G-d didn't design Black people to be under anybody else and it's not always been the case.
> 
> But OP, please do not misunderstand, I know exactly how you feel.  I look at it differently now.    G-d will have an answer some day.  But we are not cursed.  How can you love G-d and be cursed?  Everytime I look at something on television, I see Black people are automatically start praising G-d for their blessings!  It's in the language, the expression, the living.  I know others get embarassed but I see it as a blessed people.



Excellent answer Guitarhero


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## StarScream35 (Jun 29, 2011)

@softblackcotton

I have asked these very same questions over various times in my life without ever getting any clear answers. I have prayed and asked God, I have asked Christians with no clear answer. Christians say god judges everyone. Blacks say we are hated because we are strong and mighty...........REALLY??? Almost everywhere blacks go, they are hated for no apparent reason. We are the most physically different looking group of all compared to the rest of the races and people let us know it. I have often wondered about this. Why the stark difference? Among ourselves, we cannot get along. We seek to destroy each other regardless of where we are located. Whether it be Africa, America, UK or Caribbean. We are in a mess. Our men have almost no respect for us, our women have no respect for themselves. We celebrate music that talks about us in degrading ways and talks about murdering people. We allow other races who hate us to make loads of money off us by using their hair and defending the use of using their hair. I mean this makes no sense to me. Why the heck am I wearing a woman from India's hair????? I can grow my own hair. Please tell me that black people are intelligent enough to know they can grow their own hair? Why am I repeatedly spending my money at Korean beauty stores when clearly the customer service is subpar and clearly they hate us? Do black people realize the economic power they can have by just using their brains and pooling money within their community? We could shut these Asian/Indian stores down in our neighborhoods by pooling our money in our own communities. And why is there so much violence among blacks? Blacks have killed more of each other than the klan ever did. I get so sick of hearing blacks committing violence against each other and against others. Can't you do something else like get an education! I mean we need educated black men in our community but they choose thugism and violence. I just don't get it and I do wonder.................are we cursed?


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## Guitarhero (Jun 30, 2011)

Brighteyes35 said:


> @softblackcotton
> 
> I have asked these very same questions over various times in my life without ever getting any clear answers. I have prayed and asked God, I have asked Christians with no clear answer. Christians say god judges everyone. Blacks say we are hated because we are strong and mighty...........REALLY??? Almost everywhere blacks go, they are hated for no apparent reason. *We are the most physically different looking group of all compared to the rest of the races and people let us know it. I have often wondered about this. Why the stark difference?* Among ourselves, we cannot get along. We seek to destroy each other regardless of where we are located. Whether it be Africa, America, UK or Caribbean. We are in a mess.




As evidence of being cursed...as in Black being ugly or deformed and odious?  Do you realize that all men came from Black people...all of them and that Black is the base color of all cultures and races of man?  The ancient Chinese were Black etc.  

I understand why when I realize that people generally go by their own experiences and view of importance - i.e., an American point of view.  It bases its view of Black people from Transatlantic times.  All of the social problems one sees are a direct result - a lasting one at that - of that slavery. What, there are no success stories?  No moral Blacks?  No individuals?  Just criminals, idiots and immorals, huh?  

 Do people even realize that the Hebrews just released from Egypt were the same and it took centuries for them to progress into the highly cultured society they came to be?  Blacks in Africa...were not the same and of the same (social problems) we see today.  That is largely the result of colonialism.  This idea of cursing Black people is a white man's invention.  Few people know what it truly means and they are not studying the ancient writings to find it out what it refers to.  

I think it's anti-christian to even suggest that Black people are cursed and to equate them nothing more than animals simply to point out that there are bad social conditions today in which people are murdering each other.  It's directly related to colonialism.  This is the legacy.  If Blacks are cursed simply for being victimized by that, then Whites are more cursed because they are going to pay collectively in hell for eternity for all they and their ancestors have done to harm this earth. And just by dna, who can draw the line in the universe on who is Black and who is not?  Does G-d go by the same as man?  

 Please don't let your frustrations spit in G-d's face.  He's incapable of hating His own creation.  Surely, there is hatred of the darker ones.  There's hatred of the whitest ones as well in many cultures.  And there are more people other than "blacks" who are greatly oppressed in this world.  BTW, lots of cultures add hair to their own to make a style...using mud, yak (Mongolia), beads, shells, other animal hair...and hair from other people.  Consider the high-society Egyptians who shaved their heads but wore wigs.  Go figure.


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## FlyyBohemian (Jun 30, 2011)

God is no respecter of persons. Some of the most evil people in this world are filthy rich and that doesn't mean anything to God. Material wealth is not a definite sign of God's favor and I think some ministers in the modern church are sending out that flawed idea. Blessings from God are more spiritual than physical. We are not cursed as a people, but cursed are those who rebel against God with unrepentant hearts in spite of color or ethnicity.


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## Twinspired (Jun 30, 2011)

I've wondered about this too. Blacks (women) are often the worse case scenario with a lot of diseases: obesity, breast cancer, hiv, lupus the list just goes on and on. I always wonder why....

Sent from my PC36100 using PC36100


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## loulou7 (Jun 30, 2011)

My mom use to get this question a lot when she gave Bible studies. She would have the people to turn to Genesis 10:6-20. This is where we can start tracing the people of color in the human race, after the flood. 

Of course, when you look at Genesis 2:13 you see that Africa had a major role in the location of the Garden of Eden…    

By the way, there is no such thing as races; there is only one race of people. When you look at other cultures, you mightn't want to believe that those are your relatives, but Ham, Shem, and Japheth were brothers and every one of us living on this planet is from their seed.

When you look at our descendants in The Scriptures, you will see that people of color were very blessed. In fact the Canaanites owned the land that flowed with milk and honey. Through disobedience, it was finally given to the Israelites. 

G-d blessed Nimrod, with great power and might. He founded Babylon; he built the first skyscraper (The tower of Babel). He built Nineveh and more. As you trace Ham's descendants throughout the Bible, you will see that God bless them with the best. 

They were at the beginning of G-d's blessings in the Bible, while the Jewish people were enslaved. But unfortunately, some of our descendants were very rebellions and lost the land flowing with milk and honey.   When you study The Word, with a Bible Concordance, you will see how we are interwoven all through the Old and New Testaments.

Today, things - such as poor choices, institutional racism, etc… And more importantly, living in a sinful world, has caused a lot of heartache and injustices. 

But no one goes unscathed, when you disobey.

You even see how when the Jewish people became rebellious, they were scattered, as The Scripture predicted and they lost their land in Israel. They were never supposed to lose their land and the fighting that is going on between them and the Palestinians is epic.  

You also see in The Word how when they rebelled, they were carried away to foreign lands, or were invaded and conquered by the Romans. Some scholars feel that the Holocaust is part of the Jewish people's punishment for their ancestors crucifying Christ.

And there is a day coming when every nation, kindred, tongue, and people will be judged for what they have done, whether it is good or evil. For all have sin and come short of the glory of G-d.

*So we have to trust God when He says that He love everybody *and that all the wrongs will be recompensed. He is no repsect of person.

Let's just individually make wise decisions. And we can only do this by following Proverbs 3:5-6.


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## PinkPeony (Jul 1, 2011)

No I truly believe we are very much loved by God. Weren't the Jews God's people and look at their trials.


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## aribell (Jul 26, 2011)

I don't want to argue, but I thought this was a really important subject and wished I had read through the thread sooner.  My answer to the op: YES  and I appreciate your willingness to ask the question because it forces us to look beyond the physical and see spiritually.  It also tests us on how well we understand how the Lord actually moves versus how we would like Him to move.  The #1 obstacle to our perception of these things is our insistence on a politically correct theology.  It has been ingrained in us that every "culture" (man made set of traditions) has to be held equal relative to one another and treated the same and judged with kid gloves.  This is hindering us.



Prudent1 said:


> Please understand that life is not fair. *God is not a fair god* (fairness tends to be a largely human concept like ethnicities and all of these different religions) . God _is_ righteous and declares that over and over again in his word.



This bears repeating.  God is not "fair".  He operates according to His own plans and purposes.  One might cry "unfair!" at the fact that He commanded that Abraham send Ishmael and Hagar away--after all, what had they done?  But it was not fitting that Ishmael inherit alongside Isaac, and so the Lord commanded that it be done.  Now, had Abraham not sinned, it wouldn't have been an issue at all, but nevertheless God still allowed Ishmael to bear the consequences of Abraham's sin, and His blessing remained upon Abraham through Isaac, and was not given to Ishmael.



Guitarhero said:


> I think it's anti-christian to even suggest that Black people are cursed and to equate them nothing more than animals simply to point out that there are bad social conditions today in which people are murdering each other.  It's directly related to colonialism.  This is the legacy.  If Blacks are cursed simply for being victimized by that, then Whites are more cursed because they are going to pay collectively in hell for eternity for all they and their ancestors have done to harm this earth. And just by dna, who can draw the line in the universe on who is Black and who is not?  Does G-d go by the same as man?



We must have a longterm, global view of things.  The West did some terrible things in the name of colonialization, but the West has also been largely responsible for the spread of the Gospel around the world.  This is a GOOD thing.  Otherwise, the majority of us wouldn't be sitting here able to speak of the Lord, as we likely wouldn't know Him.  In the grand scheme of things, the spread of the Gospel is the MOST IMPORTANT thing when you consider the immanence of the Lord's return.  God uses people and nations to accomplish His purposes--even if those He is using are themselves bad.  I'm not going to go into the verses, but there are prophetic passages in which the Lord talks about using Nebuchadnezzar to bring judgment on the Israelites for their sin and disobedience, _and then_ He says He will turn around and judge Nebuchadnezzar as well.  It was a both-and kind of a situation--yes, bad things were happening to Israel specifically because the Lord had ordained it through a chosen vessel; but that didn't mean the vessel was good--in time Nebuchadnezzar would receive his due from God as well.  So we should not get caught up in assigning blame based on which countries did what, when, how, or to whom.  That's the short term view.  _All_ peoples and nations have come, are coming, or will come under the Lord's judgement and the _only_ way to withstand it is to be covered in Christ's blood.  Again, every nation and group is accountable to the Lord in judgment, and the only way to escape destruction is to spread the Gospel and return to Him in obedience.

Now, with respect to black people, many speculate as to the particular reasons why, but I don't know if identifying the source is as important as recognizing that a curse is in effect.  Individual Christians may be redeemed out of it by claiming Christ's victory for them, but that doesn't speak to what is going on in the rest of the culture.  Black people are not merely victims.  They actually cooperate with what is evil.  For instance, when the US Gov't said that families couldn't receive welfare if a man was in the home, many simply left and abdicated their responsibility.  They didn't stay and fight for their children.  They didn't try to find a better way, they said, "OK, I'll let the gov't take care of them then."  And that's still exactly what is happening today.  So, this goes beyond people being passively victimized.  There's a whole web of attitudes, beliefs, emotions, etc. that work together to _cooperate_ with the undermining of the AA community.  We support artists that promote the most vile, ungodly things, justify failures, and so on and so forth.  To not make this US-centric I could start talking about AIDS in Africa and who's responsible mainly for its spread (unfaithful men), but that is another story.

As I understand it, a curse is a type of spiritual "right of access" given to Satan and evil spirits to bind and wreak havoc in a person's life...or in the life of a group of people.  You see it when, try as you might, bad stuff just keeps assailing.  Think of Job--was he cursed?  Not exactly, but the Lord had given Satan specific permission to turn his world upside down--and Satan had to ask first!  In that case, the Lord said yes in order to prove Job's faithfulness, but sins, certain sins in particular, can also lead to being cursed.  For example:

*Cursing Israel*


> Genesis 12:3: "And I will bless them that bless thee and curse him that curseth thee; and in thee shall all nations of the earth be blessed."



*Illegitimate Birth*


> 2(A) "No one born of a forbidden union may enter the assembly of the LORD. Even to the tenth generation, none of his descendants may enter the assembly of the LORD.



*Idol Worship*


> Exodus 20:4-5 "..visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children even unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me".



The ancestors of black people were not Christian--they worshipped all sorts of idols and spirits and practiced religions which are wholly contrary to God's Word.  This incites His judgment.  No, it's not culturally sensitive, but it is true.  _And yes, it matters._  And Native Americans--both in North and South America are examples as well.  Or, we could consider India too. If the Lord would allow His own covenant people to be destroyed save for a remnant, why would any other people group be spared His judgment?  And again, the Lord used evil nations to bring His wrath.  I think He does the same today.  The unjust nations will also receive their due.

As far as I understand it, outside of Christ--meaning outside of active faith in His blood to cover you to make you acceptable to God--the condemnation of the law remains.  Jesus didn't do away with the Lord's requirements, He fulfilled them.  So *I believe* all the things the Lord says are curses in the OT are still curses, but unlike OT times, *you can be redeemed from them through the righteousness of faith in Christ.* _Otherwise, His law will operate just as He said that it would._  And I think that's exactly what is happening in the black community.

What black people need is the Gospel in truth.  Not these fake, money hungry shepherds, not "prosperity", but truth.  We need black people covered in His blood and pleading that blood night and day.

To show I'm not self-hating, I will also say that the star of the West is fading.   I pray for the United States, for I believe we can yet be redeemed and kept separate.  *But God's favor upon the Christian West is departing just as the West has departed from Him.*  And as Christianity continues to explode in the global South, we will see what the Lord does.  But, the battle between Isaac and Ishmael will be the last.



> Leviticus 26:39-42
> 
> 39 And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.
> 
> ...


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## Guitarhero (Jul 26, 2011)

nicola.kirwan said:


> We must have a longterm, global view of things.  The West did some terrible things in the name of colonialization, but the West has also been largely responsible for the spread of the Gospel around the world.  This is a GOOD thing.  *Otherwise, the majority of us wouldn't be sitting here able to speak of the Lord, as we likely wouldn't know Him*.  ........  So we should not get caught up in assigning blame based on which countries did what, when, how, or to whom. * That's the short term view. * _All_ peoples and nations have come, are coming, or will come under the Lord's judgement and the _only_ way to withstand it is to be covered in Christ's blood.  Again, every nation and group is accountable to the Lord in judgment, and the only way to escape destruction is to spread the Gospel and return to Him in obedience.
> 
> 
> The ancestors of black people were not Christian--they worshipped all sorts of idols and spirits and practiced religions which are wholly contrary to God's Word.  This incites His judgment.  No, it's not culturally sensitive, but it is true.  _And yes, it matters._  And Native Americans--both in North and South America are examples as well.  .



My view of the world is so large and global, it goes beyond what I've been erroneously taught by those in power who mislead for their own vain glories.  I don't know Jesus because of the bible-bearing imperialists.  Some of my family still don't know him right now.  Do I fear for their souls?  Absolutely not.  They are in Creator's hands.  I do not feel blessed because some white people came over here for a meeting with the bible in their hands, the lights went out, and we were holding the bible while they were holding the land when the lights came back on.  erplexed  I'd rather they hadn't come at all.  The ancestors of black people were not Christian?  Most of the invading ancestors of whites weren't either.  However, not quite true.  The ancestors of Jesus weren't christians either.

I think you are attempting to point to the largely non-christian ancestors of Blacks in the Americas, as in W. Africa.  Because, christianity is 2,000 years old in Africa, in general, Judaism is 3,500 years old and Islam is roughly 1,450 years old. ....all in Africa...the ancestors of black people.  I see that was an oversight.  They knew the same G-d.  My Native people were often told we didn't know G-d.  Yes, we did...it was the other way around, in fact.  I am not privileged to have Christ in the face of all the evil committed.  I am privileged because Christ preserved me and we survived to this day.  Tatanka Iyotanka (Sitting Bull) said..." If the Great Spirit had desired me to be a white man, he would have made me so in the first place....You think I am a fool, but you are a greater fool than I am....I was very sorry when I found out that your intentions were good and not what I supposed they were...It is not necessary for eagles to be crows."  G-d has always upheld justice and fairness and so to attempt to demonstrate that injustice has its perks because we get to know Jesus is a travesty, imho.  Which image of Christ do people have?  They cannot even admit He was a Jew so they replace them and stand in their places...not truly comprehending the history behind "neither Greek nor Jew."  Historical context... leads to all kinds of misguided mayhem in the "name of Jesus."  

Again, I'd rather not have had these invaders bring their "christianity" with them because it has wreaked havoc on our world.  Although Christ told them to spread the good news (of peace and spiritual abundance) ...they spread smallpox and death instead..and low self-esteem.  That does not equate with the good news.  Of course, individuals actually spread the gospel of Christ when they lived it, counteracting the fake imposters...I speak of the Quakers, but those stood up to the powers that be, placing their lives on the line.  erplexed  Can't say the catholics were prime g-dly examples, neither were the protestant Scots-Irish nor Welsh and certainly not the British.  Boarding schools?  

Perspective?  Hell, yes.  We can support the Messiah of the world without supporting the evil and misguided cretons who forced it down the throats of millions, in an attempt to gain political and economic control of the world.  Christ's mandate wasn't for monetary gain and white supremacy.  He doesn't overlook the fact that people have hijacked His name and word.  Subterfuge and coercion via death is not the gospel.  ohwell:    As far as some curse, I'm from Shem being that I descend from Jews in my mix.  I'm not under a curse.  G-d judges me singularly.  

Say what you will, but I will NEVER see your lopside of this issue and I don't feel guilty in the least and never will.  I don't have to know Jesus to go to heaven.  In the words of Larry David of Seinfeld, "what is it about christians who want everyone else to do what they do?  It's like this, I like lobster but I don't go around the world trying to forcibly convert everybody else to like lobster."  Spreading the gospel is actually a different affair...and few are those that abide within the intended guidelines.  If they'd spend more time eating humble pie rather than judging the existence and intent of others, they'd see that they, in their christian state, are still big sinners.  And if they valued the words of Christ concerning good and evil, they'd not do what they did and are still doing in many cases of covert spy missionary organizations.  Christians are largely responsible for the problems we see today in Africa and the Americas, Australia and Melanesia.  Truth hurts.  Mother Mary calls all people her children...christian and not.


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## Guitarhero (Jul 26, 2011)

Before I retire for the very late evening...another thing comes to mind.  If people are treating Black people like G-d's beloved who walked away from Him, hence receiving a curse...I thought it was mentioned that Blacks were not g-dly people in the first place and that their ancestors were pagans.  Shrugs.  They were never His sons, then...so why not have this curse upon fellow pagans...say...Hindus...Dalits (another beleaguered people) ...um...say...Druids?  If Black people have come to Christ  3,500 years after that pronouncement, how would that apply to them retroactively?  Isn't G-d  fair?...and that equates with  honesty and justness. If we apply the following to His nature of unfairness, how would He be just and honest but partial yet, impartial...i.e. sticking it to Blacks and not to others?  When did people collectively stop worshipping Him to receive this curse... those who support this interpretation of Ham, Israel etc. turning from G-d and receiving a curse?  I thought they were lucky to have the gospel and received it? So, He doesn't reward our good behavior?  


Merriam-Webster

a : marked by *impartiality and honesty* : *free from self-interest, prejudice, or favoritism* <a very fair person to do business with> b (1) : conforming with the established rules : allowed (2) : consonant with merit or importance : due <a fair share>


Yet, it's been proclaimed that G-d is not fair.  He's not just and honest, impartial and non-favoritist?  He doesn't operate (not saying held by) within His own established rules for us?  You do good, you receive the benefits of doing good? Proverbs is full of those examples and admonitions.

As to the question of why G-d allows some to suffer injustices...we're part of His creation.  We are allowed a role in it and it's up to *us* to institute justice and fairness for all men.  He's waiting on US to do it.  We are His hands and if there's lack, it's because we have dropped the ball (all humans).  The suffering of Black people and others?  And opportunity   for the world to suffer just a little bit of what He suffered in redemption.  Suffering is often a big blessing.


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## aribell (Jul 26, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> Before I retire for the very late evening...another thing comes to mind.  If people are treating Black people like G-d's beloved who walked away from Him, hence receiving a curse...I thought it was mentioned that Blacks were not g-dly people in the first place and that their ancestors were pagans.  Shrugs.  They were never His sons, then...so why not have this curse upon fellow pagans...say...Hindus...Dalits (another beleaguered people) ...um...say...Druids?  If Black people have come to Christ  3,500 years after that pronouncement, how would that apply to them retroactively? * Isn't G-d  fair?...and that equates with  honesty and justness. *If we apply the following to His nature of unfairness, how would He be just and honest but partial yet, impartial...i.e. sticking it to Blacks and not to others?  When did people collectively stop worshipping Him to receive this curse... those who support this interpretation of Ham, Israel etc. turning from G-d and receiving a curse?  I thought they were lucky to have the gospel and received it? So, He doesn't reward our good behavior?



The vast majority of people in India are under tremendous amounts of suffering.  There are millions of people treated like the scum of the earth right now because their last name isn't the "right" type.  And society has pronounced that it will be that way for all their children as well.  I don't see that black people have been singled out--three major continents--South America, Africa, and India--were dominated by colonialism.  All have incredible poverty and destitution in ways that pretty much look exactly like the descriptions the Lord uses in Isaiah or other prophetic books to show what Israel will experience due to His wrath.  This isn't looking at one tragic event--a building falling down or someone getting in an accident.  It's about the fate of nations on the whole, and that is undoubtedly spiritual.  (fallen angels having dominion over principalities and powers, including places, i.e., the king of tyre, the prince of persia)

You know, I think that really looking at how the Lord operated in Scripture makes the fact that He brings judgment on the nations pretty clear.  Who is judged _when and how _and what have you is in His hand.  A lot of arguments are made based on _our ideas_ of what ought to be, but all I'm saying that it's simply there in Scripture.  I'm sure most of us could write pages about what we think should happen and our opinion of certain peoples and cultures.  But the ultimate question is _how has God shown Himself to regard these things_?  Regarding fairness or impartiality--you know, the Lord does say, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy," meaning that He doesn't have to meet our standard of fairness.  _He_ is the standard.  But even so, we are looking at but a sliver of time in His eyes.  What other nations who have worked injustice will receive tomorrow is in His mind alone.

Even if one dispenses with the idea of a "curse," God's judgment is real.  In fact, we can throw the idea of curse out the window and maybe Scripture is clearer.  He judges iniquity, period.  That includes false religion.  And it's not just for the end of the age.  And I believe that to tell people that "it's okay, you know God too on your own," is deceiving.  If Jesus came to God's chosen people and many rejected Him, therefore rejecting salvation, why would any other people somehow have salvation aside from embracing Him?  Again, no one the Israelites encountered (except for Abraham meeting Melchizedek (who remains a mystery)) were considered to be true worshippers of God.  If you can show me where that was ever the case, I will gladly hear it.  All nations are invited to be grafted into the tree, but they must be grafted in.  They don't have it on their own.  Or, as another parable indicates, all the birds (which symbolize the nations) will come and rest in the branches of the tree.  But they must come.  And to come, someone must call them to do so.

Mary may call all people her children, Christian or not--but God does not, and it's Him, not Mary, that people people must be reconciled to.


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## Guitarhero (Jul 26, 2011)

nicola.kirwan said:


> .  But even so, we are looking at but a sliver of time in His eyes.  What other nations who have worked injustice will receive tomorrow is in His mind alone.
> 
> Even if one dispenses with the idea of a "curse," God's judgment is real.  In fact, we can throw the idea of curse out the window and maybe Scripture is clearer.  He judges iniquity, period.  That includes false religion.



Then He obviously doesn't care that I live my life for Him, He's just going to "curse" me anyway, no matter that I follow Him.  He's definitely a respecter of persons because He has a penchant to stick it to me because I'm "black."  Mind you, I'm from the United States or better, Turtle Island...but somehow, it's one of those Black African countries that is drawing me to my doomsday date with justice because of the chicken bone bowl reading by some homo erectus eons ago.    If He has given freedom and redemption, it is FINISHED, bound to the cross.  Countries do suffer judgments...however, I don't belong to one of those yet.  With all the diversity in Africa, are we truly saying they are "one" people and deserve a curse? 

All I'm saying is that it doesn't quite make sense to me...is not a logical explanation.  That was a specific time in history and it has already come to pass for those populations in Asia...Babylon, the diaspora etc.  It's not applying to "black" people worldwide.  Because, remember, those "Blacks" were pagans to begin with so how could they have been sons of G-d for turning away to apply?  They would have just joined their fellow pagan kin in their supposed non-cursed state.

There is certainly prejudice and a whole lot of it worldwide...but that's just it...it was predicted it would grow.  Maybe this is what we're seeing?  It's a result of infectious jealousies, insecurities, hatred, economics, psychology and mostly socialization etc.  If we truly look at history, whites were at the bottom of everything.  I guess the first will be last and the last first.  But to so willingly apply a "curse" to people is ridiculous to me.  I don't know of any Africans personally who believe this, christian, Jewish, Muslim or animist etc.  There could be some, I've just never ever encountered one acquaintance nor friend with this belief and it leads me to believe this is a regional idea born out of those who are the sons of slaves to make sense out of their oppressed history, as well as to apply a hyped up sense of importance in the grand scheme of history. 

Africa was just fine until Transatlantic slavery hit them as the tables turned while they sold their chattle.  This is a recent history, not ancient.  India was just fine and glorious...so was Persia.  You look at Europe with the vandals, the slavs, the Macedonian wars...it was a huge mess forever with untold human suffering.  There are countless more histories and peoples who share in greater persecutions and oppressions than Black Americans and Caribbeans.  

AIDS/HIV in Africa is a result of attitude of sex since most women who are contracting it are faithful spouses.  G-d doesn't force the penis to contract it from a curse.  People are actively responsible for their infection rates.  Again, a recent history in disease development.  Shrugs.  I guess we all will believe what we will but this discounts the great achievements that African Americans have brought to the world technology and philosophy.   Shrugs.  As for false religion, I'm lucky, I guess.  That base is definitely covered and the one I had before wasn't false either because He walked with us...unless one considers the false one doctored up and hijacked by Europeans.  I look within and don't follow something just because another says to.  I think the scriptures warn us of such.


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## Guitarhero (Jul 26, 2011)

Regarding Marian apparitions...it's the idea that the world is one and that we are all G-d's children.  Remember, there are various meanings in scripture.  On the one hand, we're all G-d's children..but those who follow His ways are another type of son and daughter.  It demonstrates a reciprocal relationship.  All of us are surrounded by G-d's presence (non-reciprocal for many) until we go to hell where it is removed.  The call is for unity and peace which we have failed at miserably throughout the ages to comprehend.  We still do not comprehend the Prophets and sages, certainly not Jesus, when we go against Him at every grain.  Our collective sin worldwide is the reason for misery and it's up to us to fix it.


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## Shimmie (Jul 26, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> *AIDS/HIV in Africa is a result of attitude of sex since most women who are contracting it are faithful spouses. *



Question:  For you and anyone else who may have an answer.

Most African men have more than one wife (Polygamy) which has been a tradition since... 'always' ???  (even in Biblical times polygamy was_ their_ 'norm'?  

What were the STD's then?   I know there had to be something for the men were going from one woman to another.  The hygiene for both men and women was not at the advantage that we are priviledged to have 'today', yet in 'our' time  STD's are in epidemic proportions.  

How were STD's back then?    HIV / AIDS just popped up from out of 'nowhere' (so to speak).   Sexual promiscurity didn't just evolve, it's been going on for centuries.  So why 'now' the epidemic proportions of STD's? 

Anyone have an answer or a theory?


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## Guitarhero (Jul 26, 2011)

Shimmie said:


> Question:  For you and anyone else who may have an answer.
> 
> Most African men have more than one wife (Polygamy) which has been a tradition since... 'always' ???  (even in Biblical times polygamy was_ their_ 'norm'?
> 
> ...



HIV is actually a very old virus.  I personally think it was manipulated somehow but that might find its way into conspiracy theories.  There have been many STD's that have taken life.  I agree that it was common for African men to have several wives.  Of course, when  Europeans colonized the place, they imposed their "religious" more's so I think it just fell to mistresses.  Same old same old.  I mean, was the Bubonic plague a curse?  Tape worm?  Dysentery?  HIV became able to kill the host and pass through blood and semen...it's just how it evolved...imho.  I'm pretty sure there were std's way back then...well, we do know of syphillis and gonorrhea.  The common cold?  Diseases contracted through sex or genetic etc., they are all just diseases.

As for hygiene...heck, all that dirt and lack of chemicals might have afforded them extra protection.  Who knows if sodium lauryl sulphate has killed us today.   You know, they didn't over-farm the land (in most cases..andhwen societies did, they died off or moved).  The ground had more mineral content.  I dunno...could be environmental.  Look at MRSA.  We've made it worse through the misuse of antibiotics.

As for my participation in this thread, I'm not trying to argue...I'm looking at all the points for a logical explanation first.  It's just how I operate.  In other words, I don't automatically see a spiritual cause first.


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## Shimmie (Jul 26, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> HIV is actually a very old virus.  I personally think it was manipulated somehow but that might find its way into conspiracy theories.  There have been many STD's that have taken life.
> 
> I agree that it was common for African men to have several wives.  Of course, when  Europeans colonized the place, they imposed their "religious" more's so I think it just fell to mistresses.  Same old same old.  I mean, was the Bubonic plague a curse?  Tape worm?  Dysentery?  HIV became able to kill the host and pass through blood and semen...it's just how it evolved...imho.  I'm pretty sure there were std's way back then...well, we do know of syphillis and gonorrhea.  The common cold?  Diseases contracted through sex or genetic etc., they are all just diseases.
> 
> *As for hygiene...heck, all that dirt and lack of chemicals might have afforded them extra protection.  Who knows if sodium lauryl sulphate has killed us today.   You know, they didn't over-farm the land (in most cases..andhwen societies did, they died off or moved).  The ground had more mineral content.  I dunno...could be environmental.  Look at MRSA.  We've made it worse through the misuse of antibiotics.*



Thanks Guitar... I'm trying to establish the disease trails.   

ETA:   There is both a spiritual and a natural law in effect connecting to this thread topic.


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## Crown (Jul 26, 2011)

Shimmie said:


> Question:  For you and anyone else who may have an answer.
> 
> Most African men have more than one wife (Polygamy) which has been a tradition since... 'always' ???  (even in Biblical times polygamy was_ their_ 'norm'?
> 
> ...


Conspiracy theories or not, this can't be ignored.

The history of the development of AIDS
http://www.present-truth.org/7-Health-Secrets-Sem/Diseases/The%20History%20of%20the%20Development%20of%20AIDS.pdf

W. H .O. Murdered Africa
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/who.htm

AIDS: A Doctor’s Note on the Man-Made Theory
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/46a.htm


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## Crown (Jul 26, 2011)

8HoursFromHome said:


> Muslims please chime in...
> 
> I had a conversation with a devout Muslim gentleman many years ago about  this. * He explained to me that blacks have already had their time at  the top.  He also stressed that when we were there, the world was a MUCH  better place.*
> 
> He didn't get into too much more detail about it and it didn't really make me feel any better.





softblackcotton said:


> By time at the top, did he mean at the pinnacle of Ancient Egypt's Power? I know black people were the rulers of Ancient Egypt. That is why are the European archaeologists and Arabs who lived in Egypt broke the noses off 90% of the statues and busts. That way no one could tell the Ancient Egyptians were black by their noses.



This is also my opinion.

Subdue the earth and have dominion over it! (Gen. 1:28)
Responsibility!
Not only, mankind subdued the earth, but they also subdued men.

Beasts in the Bible : super power, government.
................. Babylon, Persia, Greece, Roman..............

Tests and trials!

What did you do when you were in charge?

Maybe we are looking at a wrong angle.

Sorry, too tired to be more articulated.


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## SilentRuby (Jul 26, 2011)

I usually don't join in religious topics but I do remember my mother being in a service where an African? Rabbi prayed over blacks and began denouncing all works of evil against us. She said that he said there were seeds sown for us to forever live in poverty, have broken families, remain at the bottom..., and etc. I won't type everything, but IMO there are some things that need to be broken. I do think that we don't pray and stick together as much as we did back in the day. 

I know that God loves us all but if he is no respecter of person why is that our race suffers the most?


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## Guitarhero (Jul 26, 2011)

SilentRuby said:


> I usually don't join in religious topics but I do remember my mother being in a service where an African? Rabbi prayed over blacks and began denouncing all works of evil against us. She said that he said there were seeds sown for us to forever live in poverty, have broken families, remain at the bottom..., and etc. I won't type everything, but IMO there are some things that need to be broken. I do think that we don't pray and stick together as much as we did back in the day.
> 
> I know that God loves us all but if he is no respecter of person why is that our race suffers the most?




How does one explain those who didn't grow up nor live in poverty?  Is the curser only partial?  Poverty is relative, though.  The poor in America are very rich in certain other countries.  No offense, but I don't think that was a rabbi...but a minister who called himself a rabbi.  Just sounds like christianity.  Jews don't go around denouncing evil, laying hands and praying over people like that...not in any synagogue I've ever been in.  I do agree with your last statement concerning the charge that we're cursed somehow...because in my opinion, that would make G-d partial and not just.


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## Shimmie (Jul 26, 2011)

Crown nicola.kirwan Prudent1 SilentRuby

Your three posts fit together as 'sections' of the puzzle; not pieces but major sections...

The Black Curse is:  

*Cursed words which were spoken over our race.*leading to...

*Racism*, as the strongest root. 

Woship of 'other' gods (witchcraft and demonic spirituality)

Tearing down of our support system of one another

Leaving family responsibility

I'm still reading through the thread ....


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## Guitarhero (Jul 26, 2011)

I'm so sorry this is long...I'm copying and pasting...but to give another perspective on the historical context???  The curse on Ham's son because he had incestuous relations with Noah's wife, his mother.  Canaan was the land/people of this sinful relationship and of worship of such.  They were prophesied to be destroyed...already happened.  All of Noah's sons were Black (imho).

Quote:
In Hebrew, this phrase (uncover the nakedness) is a figure of speech used to describe incest (Leviticus 20:17; 18:6-18. Note: In other places besides the story of Noah and Ham, The New American Bible translates this phrase as "to have intercourse with." The Revised Standard Version in all cases keeps the more literal translation "uncover the nakedness of." See RSV-Leviticus 20:17; 18:6-18).


To uncover the nakedness of your father is to commit incest with your mother. To state it bluntly, in all its brutality - while Noah was drunk, Ham slept with his mother. We don't know what Ham was thinking. It could be that he wanted to seize power from his dad and this heinous act was his way of insulting Noah and showing his total disrespect (see similar episodes in Genesis 29:32; 35:22; 49:3-4; 2 Samuel 16:21-22).


But notice that Noah doesn't curse Ham. He curses Canaan - the son born of this incestuous encounter. Why Canaan? It's another hint in the text of what Ham's crime was. *As we'll see later, Canaan will be the founding father of a nation that will be known for its abominable practice of maternal incest (see Leviticus 18:6-18; Exodus 23:23-24).
*

Canaan is the bad fruit born of Noah's sin. But as Adam bore both Cain, the slayer of his brother, and Seth the righteous one, Noah too has a good seed: his firstborn son Shem, who had tried to "cover" his father's nakedness (see Genesis 9:23).

And this:

Here's that Haydock Douay-Rheims commentary on this subject:Ver. 25. Cursed be Chanaan. The curses, as well as the blessings, of the patriarchs were prophetical: and this in particular is here recorded by Moses, for the children of Israel, who were to possess the land of Chanaan. But why should Chanaan be cursed for his father's fault? The Hebrews answer, that he, being then a boy, was the first that saw his grandfather's nakedness, and told his father Cham of it; and joined with him in laughing at it: which drew upon him, rather than the rest of the children of Cham, this prophetical curse. (Challoner) --- Theodoret, q. 57.* The children of Sem executed this sentence, in exterminating many of the Chanaanites under Josue. (Worthington) --- They perished for their own wickedness, which God foresaw, and revealed to Noe. *Cham was severely punished by this denunciation of his children's misery. See Milton, xi. 754. xii. 27; Deuteronomy ix. 4. (Haydock)


And this:

Or the American Bible
Lev 18
The LORD said to Moses,
2
"Speak to the Israelites and tell them: I, the LORD, am your God.
3
You shall not do as they do in the land of Egypt, where you once lived, nor shall you do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you; do not conform to their customs.
4
My decrees you shall carry out, and my statutes you shall take care to follow. I, the LORD, am your God.
5
Keep, then, my statutes and decrees, for the man who carries them out will find life through them. I am the LORD.
6
1 "None of you shall approach a close relative to have sexual intercourse with her. I am the LORD.
7
You shall not disgrace your father by having intercourse with your mother. Besides, since she is your own mother, you shall not have intercourse with her.
8
You shall not have intercourse with your father's wife, for that would be a disgrace to your father.
9
You shall not have intercourse with your sister, your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, whether she was born in your own household or born elsewhere.
10
You shall not have intercourse with your son's daughter or with your daughter's daughter, for that would be a disgrace to your own family.
11
You shall not have intercourse with the daughter whom your father's wife bore to him, since she, too, is your sister.
12
You shall not have intercourse with your father's sister, since she is your father's relative.
13
You shall not have intercourse with your mother's sister, since she is your mother's relative.
14
You shall not disgrace your father's brother by being intimate with his wife, since she, too, is your aunt.
15
You shall not have intercourse with your daughter-in-law; she is your son's wife, and therefore you shall not disgrace her.
16
2 You shall not have intercourse with your brother's wife, for that would be a disgrace to your brother.
17
You shall not have intercourse with a woman and also with her daughter, nor shall you marry and have intercourse with her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter; this would be shameful, because they are related to her.
18
While your wife is still living you shall not marry her sister as her rival; for thus you would disgrace your first wife.
19
"You shall not approach a woman to have intercourse with her while she is unclean from menstruation.
20
You shall not have carnal relations with your neighbor's wife, defiling yourself with her.



Noah's sons and himself...could all have been Black.


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## PinkPebbles (Jul 26, 2011)

Shimmie said:


> @Crown @nicola.kirwan @Prudent1 @SilentRuby
> 
> Your three posts fit together as 'sections' of the puzzle; not pieces but major sections...
> 
> ...


 
If you don't mind me asking you this question - If black people are cursed then who cursed the black race, God or man? And why?


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## Shimmie (Jul 26, 2011)

Crown said:


> Conspiracy theories or not, this can't be ignored.
> 
> The history of the development of AIDS
> http://www.present-truth.org/7-Health-Secrets-Sem/Diseases/The%20History%20of%20the%20Development%20of%20AIDS.pdf
> ...



One thing that disturbs me when I read reports such as this are labels on hair and beauty products that say the following:     _"Not tested on animals"_  or this one:  _''No animals were harmed during the filming of this project".  _

So where are the groups protecting 'humans' ?????  

Crown thank you for the links.     We had a guest speaker at Church a few years ago who shared your 3rd report with us.   Back then I was shocked and I never believed the green monkey theory.  

For several weeks my spirit has been very sensitive towards our Black community, leading me to the following perception:

The conspiracy is not over.  

I have a concern is for the children in our Black community.  I do not trust all of the government 'incentive' programs being offered to low income Black families.     What's sad is that it doesn't take much of an incentive to offer many families to 'entice' them to participate; especially those looking for a decent break.

I am not an 'alarmist' neither am I hyped when I say this.   I Just know that we have to pray; we have to bind up the 'strong man' and pray.   Something is not right, I can sense it.    We have to give God free flow in our hearts to lead us and to protect us from all danger.  To show us the 'enemy's' hidden agenda, to bring it to light.   To 'Deliver Us from Evil' to protect our children, our entire community, in Jesus' Name.  Amen.  

I don't want anyone reading this to panic and not allow their child to be vacinated for school; for vacinations have saved far too many lives than not.  I still have the 'mark' on my upper arm from when I was 5 years old.  

We have to 'watch' and pray about everything the government is introducing to our community.   We cannot take their word for 'all' they promise.   I just do not trust them. 

Praise God for His mercies which endureth forever... and ever.


----------



## aribell (Jul 26, 2011)

Shimmie said:


> One thing that disturbs me when I read reports such as this are labels on hair and beauty products that say the following:     _"Not tested on animals"_  or this one:  _''No animals were harmed during the filming of this project".  _
> 
> So where are the groups protecting 'humans' ?????
> 
> ...



You know, Shimmie, me too.  I know IR relationships get discussed ad nauseum on here, but for about a week almost every black man I saw was either married to or coupled up with a white woman.  Now, _I am not saying that IR relationships are a bad thing.  Not at all!_  Please, no one take it that way.  However, here is what I believe down to my toes:  many of these men have illegitimate black children that they are neglecting and refusing to claim while they run off and commit to a non-black woman they consider a prize.  And raise children they can be proud of because they are not completely black.  And they will claim those children while leaving the black children fatherless.  I have seen this up close and I don't think it's isolated.  

Also, the popular media reveals the current flowing through the culture and Lil' Wayne made that statement where he said he was done having kids with black women.  So I suppose when he finally gets his little girl with "good hair" that she'll be the one he prizes while the others are left behind because they're "just black."  And the black community is just gulping down these messages.

_*Who on earth behaves this way toward their own??*_


----------



## Shimmie (Jul 26, 2011)

PinkPebbles said:


> If you don't mind me asking you this question - If black people are cursed then who cursed the black race, God or man? And why?



I don't mind at all, PinkPebbles... 

This is what flows from my heart:  

If God (cursed Black People), then why would He have sent Jesus to die for 'All' mankind as His Word promises?  

If God cursed the Black race than why is my family living a blessed life?  "We're Black.   Why does He hear and answer my prayers?  I'm Black.   Why does He even 'speak' to me?   Better yet, put up with me in all that I put Him through?   Why did God save my son from a curse that is prominent in the Black community, the use and addiction of drugs?   God gave me one promise after another from His Word and I watched each one come to past in my son's life. 

Praise God !!!!!  Glory to His Name!  God delivered my son from that curse all because I asked Him to and I was not allowing my son to be a statistic.  Oh No! 

Why does God speak to* each of us who are Black and in this forum *and outside of this forum, from His Word 'Personally' and allow us to see His Word come to past in our lives individually?    

The curse began *with man *in the Garden.  Not with God, but with man. 

God warned Adam [and Eve] at the very beginning, NOT to touch the Tree nor eat the fruit of it's branches.  The consequence was death...man was cursed.  

He was cursed first with losing a close relationship with God... alienation.   Prior, Adam walked with God in the 'cool of the day', one on one in sweet fellowship, daily.  Adam became separated from his Father.  

The curse of homelessness; they lost their home; both Adam and Eve went into foreclosure; they were cast out of their first home which God designed expressly for them to enjoy where every need they could ever have was fully met.    

The curse of the earth leading to the curse of poverty and hard labour.   Adam was cursed to earn his food by the sweet of his brow, by having to 'toil the land' which gradually became a hard and  unfertile terrain.

The curse of pain and suffering:   Eve was to bear her children in great pain and almost any woman can attest to having painful labour during childbirth, uncomfortable pregnancies, PMS and to add to it.... "Her desire" would be to her husband, meaning to lay and get pregnant again  (fruitful and multiply in pain). 

The curse of rebellious children:  Cain and Abel.   Abel was obedient unto God and to his parents who obviously raised him to honour God; Cain rebelled with his incorrect offering unto the Lord.

The curse of death and family destruction :  The slaying of Abel by his brother Cain

The curse of dishonesty and dishonour of God:  Cain lied to God about Abel and was full of arrogance and insubordination... "Am I my brother's keeper?"  

The curse of being exiled: Cain was 'marked' and banished from his mother and father...forever.

The curse of being 'Blackballed' .... _ I believe _that Cain lived a life of discrimination...

Therefore, I do not believe that God put a curse upon Black People... instead it came as a result of Man when he sinned it opened the door for curses to fall upon men.


----------



## Shimmie (Jul 26, 2011)

nicola.kirwan said:


> You know, Shimmie, me too.  I know IR relationships get discussed ad nauseum on here, but for about a week almost every black man I saw was either married to or coupled up with a white woman.  Now, _I am not saying that IR relationships are a bad thing.  Not at all!_  Please, no one take it that way.  However, here is what I believe down to my toes:  many of these men have illegitimate black children that they are neglecting and refusing to claim while they run off and commit to a non-black woman they consider a prize.  And raise children they can be proud of because they are not completely black.  And they will claim those children while leaving the black children fatherless.  I have seen this up close and I don't think it's isolated.
> 
> Also, the popular media reveals the current flowing through the culture and Lil' Wayne made that statement where he said he was done having kids with black women.  So I suppose when he finally gets his little girl with "good hair" that she'll be the one he prizes while the others are left behind because they're "just black."  And the black community is just gulping down these messages.
> 
> _*Who on earth behaves this way toward their own??*_



Nicola, the entire human race has been cursed with the negative mindset that being Black (having dark skin) is a curse.   

I have Indian friends who 'tan' very easily and they have all types of skin lighteners to counteract it.   There's something in their culture that attaches 'shame' to having dark skin.   

Life on the plantation is what cursed the minds of the Black community.   They were 'brain controlled' to see the white women as beautiful and Black women as not.   Only the lighter complexion women were allowed to work in the 'big house'; the darker skin women were placed in the fields.   Our 'Black' men grew up with this, and it became worse with each new generation as the conditioning of this 'cursed' mindset began from the moment they came from the womb and grew up surrounded by the vast colors of skin.   

Please forgive me when I say this and I submit to humility by apologizing in advance.    I'm going to say it.    The state of our 'Black men' needs more prayer than ever before.   The reason is the enemy is stealing them from Black women, by either marrying white women or letting the world tell them it's okay to be gay. 

The one thing I will say is that God does and will always hear our prayers to redeem 'all men' of all colors.     

Another thing I've noticed and personally experienced is that White men do love Black women.   And their love is increasing; it is truly on the rise in regards to Black men with white women.    

Praise God.   The tables are being turned.


----------



## PinkPebbles (Jul 26, 2011)

Shimmie said:


> I don't mind at all, PinkPebbles...
> 
> This is what flows from my heart:
> 
> ...


 
The reason why I asked you that specific question because I thought you said the black race is cursed in a previous (lock) thread; as well as, insinuated the same thought in your last post  #35 which I quoted.

However, thanks for the clarification.


----------



## Shimmie (Jul 26, 2011)

PinkPebbles said:


> The reason why I asked you that specific question because I thought you said the black race is cursed in a previous (lock) thread; as well as, insinuated the same thought in your last post  #35 which I quoted.
> 
> However, thanks for the clarification.



 @  

Babygirl, there is a 'curse', it's too obvious to ignore it;  but I never said that God 'cursed' the Black race.

PinkPebbles, I can't live behind my 'Blessed Life' anymore, praying for others, giving words of encouragement and not 'see' the truth of what lies behind the hurts of so many people that I pray for.    God is bringing me to another level which is to 'see' more so that I can yield more to how He wants me to pray when He brings people to me and sends me to them.   It's a change that comes to *each of us *yielded or not, it comes.  

Don't let the enemy distract you with what I say or don't say.   Your growth is in process too.   Those of us in Christ Jesus, have *His* life and the growing never stops. 

Posting Love #101 ...


----------



## Shimmie (Jul 26, 2011)

nicola.kirwan said:


> You know, Shimmie, me too.  I know IR relationships get discussed ad nauseum on here, but for about a week almost every black man I saw was either married to or coupled up with a white woman.  Now, _I am not saying that IR relationships are a bad thing.  Not at all!_  Please, no one take it that way.
> 
> 
> However, here is what I believe down to my toes:  many of these men have illegitimate black children that they are neglecting and refusing to claim while they run off and commit to a non-black woman they consider a prize.  And raise children they can be proud of because they are not completely black.  *And they will claim those children while leaving the black children fatherless.*  I have seen this up close and I don't think it's isolated.
> ...



I re-read your post and I have to post this..... again:

The first 'father of all nations' in the Bible did this... Abraham, when he sent Ishmael away and also when he sent away the son's he had with Keturah (his Black wife).  

Nicola... I see a 'trail' to this pattern which has followed throughout the Black community.   It cannot be a coincidence. 

I know, I know...  'Issac'  -   God made a Covenant with Abraham and God is faithful, Abraham was not.  


This is my perception yet I'm open to God's clarity on this and all else.  

Sweet Sleep and Precious Blessings to Everyone


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## Crown (Jul 27, 2011)

PinkPebbles said:


> If you don't mind me asking you this question - If black people are cursed then who cursed the black race, God or man? And why?





Shimmie said:


> I don't mind at all, PinkPebbles...
> 
> This is what flows from my heart:
> 
> ...


This answer is so *mankind*, nothing specific to Black people!


----------



## Crown (Jul 27, 2011)

Shimmie said:


> One thing that disturbs me when I read reports such as this are labels on hair and beauty products that say the following:     _"Not tested on animals"_  or this one:  _''No animals were harmed during the filming of this project".  _
> 
> So where are the groups protecting 'humans' ?????
> 
> ...


You are right!

The New World Order is not just a fiction.


----------



## Crown (Jul 27, 2011)

nicola.kirwan said:


> You know, Shimmie, me too.  I know IR relationships get discussed ad nauseum on here, but for about a week almost every black man I saw was either married to or coupled up with a white woman.  Now, _I am not saying that IR relationships are a bad thing.  Not at all!_  Please, no one take it that way.  However, here is what I believe down to my toes:  many of these men have illegitimate black children that they are neglecting and refusing to claim while they run off and commit to a non-black woman they consider a prize.  And raise children they can be proud of because they are not completely black.  And they will claim those children while leaving the black children fatherless.  I have seen this up close and I don't think it's isolated.
> 
> Also, the popular media reveals the current flowing through the culture and Lil' Wayne made that statement where he said he was done having kids with black women.  So I suppose when he finally gets his little girl with "good hair" that she'll be the one he prizes while the others are left behind because they're "just black."  And the black community is just gulping down these messages.
> 
> _*Who on earth behaves this way toward their own??*_





Shimmie said:


> @
> 
> Babygirl, there is a 'curse', it's too obvious to ignore it;  but I never said that God 'cursed' the Black race.
> 
> ...



Did you see this video ?
400 years without a comb :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cMf1heTa6A

Are brain-washing and ignorance curses?
So it's not about an entire group : Black people.

Take a group of white people (or whatever) keep them ignorant and condition them to believe what you want them to believe, over a long period of time, and you will have the same result.

The fact is not : whether or not a group is cursed.
The real fact is : lack of Love/compassion from the leaders (even from those who called/call themselves Christians).

And we all will have to give an account about what we did when we were at the top, governing the earth.


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## aribell (Jul 27, 2011)

Crown said:


> Did you see this video ?
> 400 years without a comb :
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cMf1heTa6A
> 
> ...


 
I don't think the bolded contradicts what has been discussed here. The more fundamental idea is that when it comes to the fate of nations--entire groups of people--Scripture shows that such things are not random. Yes, you would get the same result with another group of people, but it wasn't another group, and no matter who the group being discussed is, the inquiry is to whether there is a spiritual element in it.

Even if a person does not believe in curses at all, we do see biblically that there is always a "both and" with respect to events on the national scale. That there was both the Persian empire, but also the "prince of Persia" who was a fallen angel strong enough to resist the archangel Michael. There was a Prince of Tyre in the natural, but also the "King of Tyre," who is identified as Satan himself. We see God identifying Nebuchadnezzar as an evil ruler, but at the same time saying that He would use that evil ruler to bring punishment to the Israelites. The ruler was evil, but he was also identified as God's chosen vessel of wrath. And finally, Satan could not have offered to give Jesus all the nations unless they were under his power. The point simply being that I don't think it's ever "just" individual decisions made by natural rulers. There is a spiritual side that is just as real and active as the physical. We generally prefer to focus on the physical, as we can manage that more easily, but it just seems that the bible is filled with indications that it's about much more than that. And if we recognize it, then we can pray and fight spiritually with more power and accuracy.



			
				Ephesians 6:12 said:
			
		

> For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.


 
As far as curses go, you do see that Satan asks the Lord permission to do things. Like with Job, or when Jesus said that Satan asked to sift Peter. Whatever Satan is doing, he's being allowed to do, and IMO (it's just an idea that might be untrue) a curse is spiritual permission for Satan to work where the Lord might not otherwise give it, or where He would send his angels to fight and defend. When He says in various places throughout the OT that such and such a person will be cursed if they do X, perhaps that can be seen as Him saying He will allow evil to overtake that person or that group in a particular way. For instance, NT passages speak of God sending strong delusion because people refuse to love the truth. Well, in the OT, you have the scene where God sends a lying spirit to deceive King Ahab because he is unrighteous and continually surrounded himself with false prophets. God certainly doesn't lie, and I don't see how any of His angels could lie. So this may well be another example of the Lord allowing evil spirits to do bad work as punishment.

At the least, I believe we should all be able to agree that these things aren't simply random.


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## Laela (Jul 27, 2011)

[This is a portion of an article that I'd like to share. Link is a bottom. Slavery existed long before the African slave trade. It's well-documented that in biblical times, there were slaves of a mixed multitude. Africa's slave trade turned into a morally depraved institution because of the skewering Scripture to justify treating other human beings like animals.]

.... Never mind, of course, that the Bible says that Canaan, Ham's son, was cursed, not Ham himself. Thus, only one of Ham's four sons, not all four, were cursed. How then could all black people everywhere be cursed?

Never mind that the Bible places limitations on curses-only three or four generations at most (Ex. 20:5).

Never mind that the curse on Canaan and his descendants-"Now there, you are cursed, and none of you shall be freed from being slaves"-finds its most obvious fulfillment in the ongoing defeat and subjugation of Canaan by Israel (Josh. 9:23; 1 Kings 9:20-21).

Never mind that the descendants of Ham's other sons-Cush, Mizraim, and Put-have continued to this day as national peoples in Ethiopia (Cush), Egypt (Mizraim), and Libya (Put).

And never mind that God says that curses based on disobedience are reversed when people repent and turn again to obedience (Ex. 20:6). This is certainly sufficient to negate the Christian endorsement of the American enslavement of black Christians.

Myths, however, do not need facts; they simply need supporters. Because the myth of inferiority needed as much theological support as possible to make it stick, some Christians turned to the New Testament to corroborate the Old Testament verses on masters and slaves. These people quoted biblical passages on slaves submitting to their masters (e.g., Eph. 6:5-8; Col. 3:22)to contemporize the myth to the economic framework of the New World

The Puritans were attempting to turn America into the "city set on a hill," the manifestation of the prophesied kingdom of God on earth. Slavery provided an economic base for implementing this theology, even among some of the theological and religious heroes of the colonial era. Some of the noted New England leaders who endorsed this perspective of slavery were George Whitefield, John Davenport, Evera Styles, and Jonathan Edwards. (6) They attempted to teach the slaves to docilely accept their inferior status, for to do so was the will of God. To fail to do so was to rebel against God and risk eternal punishment. (7)

With this comprehensive "biblical" strategy, the myth of inferiority took theological wings. These Christians forgot that the apostle Paul told masters to treat converted slaves as equal brothers in Christ (Philem. 1:15-16). They forgot that the apostle Paul said that slaves had the right to try to change their status (1 Cor. 7:21). And they forgot that the masters' authority over slaves was limited.

It was not within the mater's rights to treat a slave in an inhumane manner. Masters were to apply the Golden Rule to slaves and were not to treat them as children of a lesser god. The God who rules both heaven and earth will show no partiality to those who commit evil against humankind, whether slave or free.

The colonial Christians forgot Paul's writing to the Ephesians, which says, "For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity" (Eph. 2:14-15). Barriers no longer exist between people's fellowship with God or each other, Paul said,

They forgot the biblical truth that to be members of the body of Christ means that preferences based on class, culture, or race are totally unacceptable to God, and people who make such preferences are candidates for His judgment (James 2:9-13). Such biblical data, however, would not support the inferiority myth. Adding such biblical references would be telling the whole truth, and truth and myth do not mix very well. Therefore, early Americans had to be selective about what Bible verses to use to establish a theological basis to justify slavery and perpetuate the inferiority myth.

- TONY EVANS
Jan 2010
http://www.epm.org/resources/2010/Jan/18/are-black-people-cursed-curse-ham/


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## PinkPebbles (Jul 27, 2011)

nicola.kirwan said:


> I don't think the bolded contradicts what has been discussed here. The more fundamental idea is that when it comes to the fate of nations--entire groups of people--Scripture shows that such things are not random. Yes, you would get the same result with another group of people, but it wasn't another group, and no matter who the group being discussed is, the inquiry is to whether there is a spiritual element in it.
> 
> Even if a person does not believe in curses at all, we do see biblically that there is always a "both and" with respect to events on the national scale. That there was both the Persian empire, but also the "prince of Persia" who was a fallen angel strong enough to resist the archangel Michael. There was a Prince of Tyre in the natural, but also the "King of Tyre," who is identified as Satan himself. We see God identifying Nebuchadnezzar as an evil ruler, but at the same time saying that He would use that evil ruler to bring punishment to the Israelites. The ruler was evil, but he was also identified as God's chosen vessel of wrath. And finally, Satan could not have offered to give Jesus all the nations unless they were under his power. The point simply being that I don't think it's ever "just" individual decisions made by natural rulers. There is a spiritual side that is just as real and active as the physical. *We generally prefer to focus on the physical, as we can manage that more easily, but it just seems that the bible is filled with indications that it's about much more than that. And if we recognize it, then we can pray and fight spiritually with more power and accuracy.*
> 
> ...


 
Nicola – I’m curious to know - Did God reveal to you the stronghold that is behind all of the curses associated with the black race so you can pray effectively and accurately? Did He give you the reasons why He allowed slavery to occur in the U.S and the psychological effects from the re results of it? Where the Black race under judgment like the Israelites as you describe in your post for breaking God’s covenant?


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## aribell (Jul 27, 2011)

PinkPebbles said:


> Nicola – I’m curious to know - Did God reveal to you the stronghold that is behind all of the curses associated with the black race so you can pray effectively and accurately? Did He give you the reasons why He allowed slavery to occur in the U.S and the psychological effects from the re results of it? Where the Black race under judgment like the Israelites as you describe in your post for breaking God’s covenant?


 
PinkPebbles, what I wrote, I wrote for reflection and as something for discussion.  It is something that has been increasingly on my mind and something that I have been looking into.  This is not necessarily about "black people" despite the title of the thread.  It's about spiritual warfare in general and _how_ things operate in this world.

I recognize that I didn't directly answer your question, but that was intentional because it really has nothing to do with me or my opinions.  I think we're all able to discuss this and whatever I said I pointed to biblical examples to support why I think this way.  Based on the understanding and light that you have from the Lord you may take it or leave it.


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## Guitarhero (Jul 27, 2011)

Laela said:


> [This is a portion of an article that I'd like to share. Link is a bottom. Slavery existed long before the African slave trade. It's well-documented that in biblical times, there were slaves of a mixed multitude. Africa's slave trade turned into a morally depraved institution because of the skewering Scripture to justify treating other human beings like animals.]



The Ph.D. with the lisp!  I absolutely love to hear him.  Seems that every time we head across country, Dr. Evans comes on the radio mid-Ohio and I just have a good ole time listening to him and I wake right up lol.  Never can get enough and he appeals to my senses (logic/history folks...I don't have a crush lol).  Thanks for this.   I wonder if he is on YT.


General discussion:

I believe that many peoples are oppressed in this world and it's all relative to their experience, history, psychology, spirituality and explanations of...perhaps the slavery still existing is self-inflicted?  It's a result of ignorance and complacency?  The elephant can be held captive by a simple chain on a post to his leg.  He doesn't break free because he believes he is not free.  He doesn't see that he is his own master.


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## Cherokee-n-Black (Jul 27, 2011)

I have no real opinion on the issue, just thoughts:  There are those that believe the story of the Israelite jews is a stolen history (by the people who currently identify as Jews) and that it was the African jews who were subjugated and persecuted and were promised redemption with the return of a messiah.  Now, that goes against Christian philosophy that the messiah did indeed come and redeem us all, but it is an interesting theory and there are quite a few parallels to the current state of bondage of African descendants today.  I find it interesting that Christianity has often been manipulated to further the subjugation of black people (and others, to be fair) and to justify so many injustices.  I also find it interesting that the current black church seems to think the answer is ignoring the obvious racism and barriers that exist and focusing on increasing wealth (which is often precluded by those things).  Consequently, things are worse than ever for the impoverished, working poor, and disappearing middle class, and basically no one is championing the cause anymore.  What all this means I have no idea...but it somehow seemed relevant...sorry if it's not!


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## Laela (Jul 27, 2011)

@pebbles, valid questions; I had to blink a few times when I read your first question, because that very thought came to my mind yesterday. Maybe this is a wake-up call for some to pray against the spiritual strongholds on 'black folks as a whole.' Maybe God has lain this on Shimmie's heart. We should never be weary in well-doing. Now, my only problem with this, however, is ... Does the _Black People _in question include Africans...other blacks throughout the world who have never lived in US or Africa, the Caribbean? Or is this just about African-Americans and blacks born in the USA? I mean, there are Africans and 'black' people who don't have 'dark skin'. There are 'blacks' of mixed 'races' everywhere, including Indians in the Americas and Caribbean. There are some Asians with skin darker than some Africans...

So you see, a topic like this would only cause divisions...because of the cultural and physical aspects.

On the spritual level, it's being known that Africa is in the middle of a spiritual revival. More often, African leaders/ministers are coming HERE to minister to the people in the United States. What is this saying? The Bible tells us poverty is not only about economic status. REAL POVERTY is a life without Christ. One can choose to live without money and not be poor. On can be rich as all get out and be depraved emotionally, spiritually, ethically, etc.

@Nicola ITA there is definitely spiritual validity to all of this, and I really get all of what you're saying because I agree. There is more to all this that what is being said. It's a good discussion that really is giving me a lot to think about, on the practical level. No need to be a historian or intellectual to know that spiritual warfare is the bottom line, despite the controversial topic of this thread. I like to identify with the Caribbean and Africa because of lineage, but my *first identity *is in Jeshua, son of the Most High God. 

'Race' was created by man to cause division. WHO is behind this? The story of the Tower of Babel shows us that when men come together, anything they put their mind to is possible but within the limit of God's Sovereignty. When the People of God come together, whether it's through fasting/prayer or even agreeing, God (the real Power Source) is in the midst. I've had my fair share of reggaefied "Solidarity" rallies/music/events, etc. Without God in the midst, it's all rendered ineffective. We need God to truly come together.   
Who is the real enemy, causing all this contention? When we all get to heaven, ya'll know he won't be there


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## Crown (Jul 27, 2011)

nicola.kirwan said:


> I don't think the bolded contradicts what has been discussed here. The more fundamental idea is that when it comes to the fate of nations--entire groups of people--Scripture shows that such things are not random. Yes, you would get the same result with another group of people, but it wasn't another group, and no matter who the group being discussed is, the inquiry is to whether there is a spiritual element in it.
> 
> Even if a person does not believe in curses at all, we do see biblically that there is always a "both and" with respect to events on the national scale. That there was both the Persian empire, but also the "prince of Persia" who was a fallen angel strong enough to resist the archangel Michael. There was a Prince of Tyre in the natural, but also the "King of Tyre," who is identified as Satan himself. We see God identifying Nebuchadnezzar as an evil ruler, but at the same time saying that He would use that evil ruler to bring punishment to the Israelites. The ruler was evil, but he was also identified as God's chosen vessel of wrath. And finally, Satan could not have offered to give Jesus all the nations unless they were under his power. The point simply being that I don't think it's ever "just" individual decisions made by natural rulers. There is a spiritual side that is just as real and active as the physical. We generally prefer to focus on the physical, as we can manage that more easily, but it just seems that the bible is filled with indications that it's about much more than that. And if we recognize it, then we can pray and fight spiritually with more power and accuracy.
> 
> ...



We are talking about Black people, not individuals. I am not sure about how I can reconcile what you are saying with what the Bible said :

Ez. [SIZE=-1]18.1 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,    18.2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb  concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour  grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?    18.3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.    18.4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of  the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth,  it shall die.

All this chapter.
[/SIZE]


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## Crown (Jul 27, 2011)

Maybe, we don’t have the same understanding of what is a curse.
I think there is a confusion between action/reaction(or consequence) and curse.

Action : slavery, colonialism, invasion, brain washing… during a long period of time.
Consequences : poverty, low esteem, low education, hate………..

Curse : whatever you do (education, investment...), you will not go away!
Is this the case for Black people : NO.


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## Detroit2Dallas (Jul 27, 2011)

.....Christ is coming for the REMNANT....remnant is the last, the left over, the part no one bothers to scrap up.....the lest shall be the greatest.....think about that


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## Shimmie (Jul 27, 2011)

Crown said:


> This answer is so *mankind*, nothing specific to Black people!



You're right, it is 'mankind'.     Yet it's the 'mankind' of our Black community who are most affected.  

"Why our people?"   

My first Pastor use to say this a lot:  

"The devil hates Black People because he is afraid of the power that we possess.   satan knows that once 'we' as a Black Whole, come together in support of one another, that we will literally  'wipe' out his plans."  

When you think about it, we are the most gifted and talented of all people in this earth.   We definitely can Dance ... and sing.    I'm not being catty with this comment.   We have beautiful gifts with design and hair care long before this forum existed.  Even the shortest hair was made to look classic by 'sisters' who knew how to work a hair style.   We have builders, architects, landscaping skills that have made history in the richest of homes.  We have mathematicians, science scholars, wizard minds in technology that even the government couldn't invent; doctors who have the gift of surgical skills that can never be matched.  

Yet.... why is 'our' race still on the bottom?   

What on earth is going on?  

We more than qualify to be above the other races who have succeeded to achieve where it should instead be our people?   What is going on?    What?  

I know that racism plays a huge key, however racism abides in all races and cultures, etc.   How is it that we have been subdued by it?   Why was it 'our' race that ended up in American slavery and not another?  

Why did our forefathers have to be the ones who were whipped, beaten, burned alive, shot, hung as 'strange fruit' on southern trees?   

Why is it Black skin no matter what shade -- light, tan, honey or rich brown -- why is it 'our' skin that is under such scrutiny and not one that is white. 

Why do Eastern Indians own Dunkin Donuts and Baskin Robbins Ice stores (combined) ???

Why are 90% of the taxis I ride in have Middle Eastern drivers?

Why does the solid waste industry have 90% white execs and the trash trucks are driven by Blacks and the garbage pickups are Black men? 

I just want to know why 'our race' and not another?  What made 'us' the prime and conquered targets.? 

Why?  

So many of 'our' People are hurting from this.   I met a woman who shared with me that she once wanted to 'die' because she was 'Black'.     The love of God healed her heart from this.    But there are a lot of women who do not want to live because they are Black and this spirit of opression has to be done away with.   

I only have parts of the puzzle.   I need the whole picture and it's origin so that the roots of it's affect can be destroyed.


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## aribell (Jul 27, 2011)

Crown said:


> We are talking about Black people, not individuals. I am not sure about how I can reconcile what you are saying with what the Bible said :
> 
> Ez. [SIZE=-1]18.1 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying, 18.2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? 18.3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. 18.4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
> 
> ...


 
The book of Malachi was authored after Ezekiel, and in 4:6, there is the verse saying that the Lord will turn the hearts of the father to the children, "lest I strike the earth with a curse." So, the Lord was still speaking of curses even after He inspired Ezekiel, so I can't take Ezekiel 18 to mean that they no longer exist.

Prior to the Lord speaking that in Ezekiel, there was no relief from a curse, regardless of one's faith or righteousness. If it was a curse for all generations, then that was it--period. However, the Lord has made a way of redemption from curses--through repentance and faith. It doesn't mean they no longer exist, but that unlike before, you can escape them by deliberately turning away from wickedness and living righteously.

I think that's why this topic is not a negative one to me. Redemption is readily available to all, and indeed, has been experienced by many.

ETA: I was curious and looked at an online concordance. Curses are mentioned several other times after Ezekiel 18 was written.

I also found that the final end to all curses will come in the new heavens and the new earth. Revelation 22:3 says: _"No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him." _

I thought it was interesting that the word "any" is used. Like, it's not just one curse (from the Garden) that will cease, but there will no longer be any curse whatsoever. The ESV says, "No longer will _anything_ be accursed," which at least to me seems to imply that before we all get to the new heavens and the new earth, there are plenty of things which are, in fact, cursed.

I didn't intend to get this deep, but it's there. This is interesting and significant to me, but as Laela mentioned this may not be profitable for others. And some may feel that what is being talked about is a personal condemnation or devaluation of their worth as black women--which is not at all the case. So, I may choose not to continue to engage in this discussion.


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## Shimmie (Jul 27, 2011)

nicola.kirwan said:


> The book of Malachi was authored after Ezekiel, and in 4:6, there is the verse saying that the Lord will turn the hearts of the father to the children, "lest I strike the earth with a curse." So, the Lord was still speaking of curses even after He inspired Ezekiel, so I can't take Ezekiel 18 to mean that they no longer exist.
> 
> Prior to the Lord speaking that in Ezekiel, there was no relief from a curse, regardless of one's faith or righteousness. If it was a curse for all generations, then that was it--period. However, the Lord has made a way of redemption from curses--through repentance and faith. It doesn't mean they no longer exist, but that unlike before, you can escape them by deliberately turning away from wickedness and living righteously.
> 
> ...



Nicola... 

My heartfelt prayer is that the peace of God which surpasses all understanding, prevails among and within each of us for and towards one another.  

The sooner the 'Truth' is exposed regarding the struggles of our culture, the more of our loved ones and loved ones of others will be free. 

There's a wall that God has been trying to tear down to redeem and set free those who have been held captive far too long.   "Feel Good" messages are not going to do what God is calling (His vessels) to do.  It's only 'icing' glossing over the hidden which needs to be confronted in order to be rendered powerless in the lives of those we love and pray for. 

Pastor taught a series on Curses and it was also one of his courses in Biblle College and in our Bible Studies.    He was lead of the Lord to do this because when it comes to the word 'curse', he noticed that most people would become very 'quiet and appeared to be fearful when this word was uttered.   The very word itsself sends _*some*_ into a panic.  

 I've seen this reaction and in the Body of Christ, this should not be, as we have a Blood Covenant, sealed in God's Blood which protects each one in Christ from any curse.  A curse in itsself is nothing to joke about, yet it has no power neither over or against those in Christ.   And I'm not just saying this because someone else said it.  It's not an 'echo'.   

In my life as a Christian, I've had so many threats spoken against me, but God has built a wall of fire of His protection around me and my family.  God always prepares me.  One morning I opened my door and there was a trail of salt outlining the porch and the entrance area of my front door... my 'walking path'.     My first reactiion was    Before I could be   the Holy Spirit rose up in my heart with the Word of God in Luke 10:19  

_Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by ANY MEANS hurt you_. 

I couldn't be a prisoner in my home, let alone be afraid to walk in the 'call' that God has ordained for me.   I had to make a choice to believe in God or believe in the evil that was set against me.    I got the broom, stepped in the salt and swept it away.   I could have had someone else do it for me, but I had to face it or allow it to control my faith.    Other 'events' have occurred and each one just made me bolder and more aware of God's presence in my life.  

In regards to our OP's thread topic, this is a very sensitive area; many will be offended, some fearful, others will seek the face of God for the Truth and His direction.    This 'issue' is indeed at hand and it has to be confronted in order for our culture to be set free.    

We have a new generation before us, and they need to be under God's covering and enabled to flourish in His blessings giving God all honour and praises as the Light of the World and the rich Salt of God's earth.

Speak what God tells you to speak... none of us know who is being set free.  However, I for one, I am listening.


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## aribell (Jul 27, 2011)

Thank you for sharing Shimmie.  No, we have nothing to fear at all when we have Christ!  I realized what, for me, is at the heart of this:  Few, if any, will truly call people who are considered victimized or oppressed to repentance.  Indeed, the Lord seeks to set the captives free, but it's as if instead of telling people to turn to Him to break their bonds, we discuss history and politics and policies as if they were the root of the problem.

Who is calling the _nations_ to turn to God?  The Lord doesn't just care about individuals, He cares about people groups and cultures on the whole.  Again, from Revelation:



> And he showed me a pure[a] river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. *The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations*. 3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads.





			
				Revelation 21:23-26 said:
			
		

> 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
> 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
> 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
> 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.



Redemption for peoples and societies and cultures comes only through acknowledging sin and turning away from it.  That is relief from the curse.  We could all talk at length about all the bad things the government has done to black Americans, but the more significant fact is that many of the things which define and distinguish specifically black communities are sinful to the core.  And rather than churches telling people of God's judgment and calling them to repent of all the things that hold them bound, they talk about which political candidate will do more for them.  Nothing will change by putting trust in political officials.  

We can talk about the abortions, sexual sin, father abandonment, criminal activity and so on that mark the cities...but yet strangely refuse to say, "Repent!"  Each generation chooses to continue to participate in and perpetuate sin, and its effects live on, and the judgment continues.  Yes, the Lord says, "the soul that sins, it shall die," and "the righteousness of the righteous will be on himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be on himself"--but if you happen to be a part of a minority group, we turn it and say that the wickedness in your life isn't really your fault, isn't really your responsibility.  This is not.true.  Don't we know that if these communities embraced the Gospel and cleansed themselves that the Lord would do a great work among them?  That He would be their God and defender?

I think that even as believers we have embraced a type of humanism that will not hold people accountable for what _the Lord_ clearly deems sin, and thus we don't really preach the power of the Gospel for redemption because we are refusing to acknowledge that our community (black, native american, whomever) genuinely needs to be redeemed from something.  We say we need a more effective policy, or more money, instead of recognizing that so long as the sin remains, the judgment remains.

I'm not sure how you bring the Gospel to entire peoples or communities, but that is what is at the core of it for me.


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## Shimmie (Jul 27, 2011)

nicola.kirwan said:


> Thank you for sharing Shimmie.  No, we have nothing to fear at all when we have Christ!  I realized what, for me, is at the heart of this:  Few, if any, will truly call people who are considered victimized or oppressed to repentance.  Indeed, the Lord seeks to set the captives free, but it's as if instead of telling people to turn to Him to break their bonds, we discuss history and politics and policies as if they were the root of the problem.
> 
> Who is calling the _nations_ to turn to God?  The Lord doesn't just care about individuals, He cares about people groups and cultures on the whole.  Again, from Revelation:
> 
> ...



Nicola... We gather the children; the new generation.   We gather the children of this generation and love them and teach them and fill their hearts with the Truth, the Power and the Love of God.   We cover them in prayer and allow God to fulfill His purpose for their lives.

The parents, we also embrace with the love and the prayers of God.  We have to speak the truth to them, however the resistance is the wall that has to be torn down.    One thing I've experienced is that the children will listen and are more open to seeds of God's Truth being planted into their hearts.   

The 'world' is already 'feeding' them sin.   Our Churches can feed them the waters of life.   It is so easy to do.  In my Sunday School classes, the children were taught the Word at their level -- on purpose-- I didn't have a babysitting Ministry and their parents acknowledged the difference in their behaviour  

Our Churches have to put more focus on the children of this generation.  It will 'sweep' out the sin.

ETA:   Nicola... you have a 'call' a Ministry of consecration and conviction; bringing hearts to repentance.    Please don't stop speaking your heart.   I can 'see' you ministering to women in prisons, literally setting the captives free.   God's anointing is upon you.


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## moonglowdiva (Jul 28, 2011)

*To some degree.... yes. I do believe that as a race we may have a sin problem moreso. Sin is what puts a person under a curse. We have a high rate fof illegitimacy. That is sin and it put a person back under the old covenant and then have sex outside of marriage... sin and it puts back under the old covenant. A lot of time in the negro community, we will go to church and confess to have Christ yet sinning like there is not consequence to our action. That is being lukewarm... the worst condition one can find himself. If we confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive but HE will not forgive you if you do not confess. No sin is hidden from God. You also have black ministers that are corrupt and if the head is corrupt the body will be too. It starts with the individual and where they are being fed. Then the church as a whole the community etc. I think we choose to live under the curse. Also simple sin like greed, lust, and pride. Often times we don't know we have that and do not have much of a prayer life so those sins are often ignored. Even here on this site sin is very prevelant. We are all guilty of greed and covetousness. That has to be confession and forsaken. As a black community we are godlike but often times we live like hell. This is just my take on it and I do not have scripture here to back me because I wouldn't have even finished typing but nevertheless. Black folk have a sin problem moreso than anything. The Word says we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of GOd. Sinned is past tense if we are a new creation in Christ Jesus then we should have put our sin under the blood. We don't wilfully sin anymore.*

*ETA: I have not read what other have posted just the OP.*


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## Crown (Jul 28, 2011)

nicola.kirwan said:


> The book of Malachi was authored after Ezekiel, and in 4:6, there is the verse saying that the Lord will turn the hearts of the father to the children, "lest I strike the earth with a curse." So, the Lord was still speaking of curses even after He inspired Ezekiel, so I can't take Ezekiel 18 to mean that they no longer exist.
> 
> Prior to the Lord speaking that in Ezekiel, there was no relief from a curse, regardless of one's faith or righteousness. If it was a curse for all generations, then that was it--period. However, the Lord has made a way of redemption from curses--through repentance and faith. It doesn't mean they no longer exist, but that unlike before, you can escape them by deliberately turning away from wickedness and living righteously.
> 
> ...


Sorry, my post was not complete, I was talking about generations.
But, it's over, no need for an answer.


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## Crown (Jul 28, 2011)

Shimmie said:


> You're right, it is 'mankind'.     Yet it's the 'mankind' of our Black community who are most affected.
> 
> "Why our people?"
> 
> ...


 Os. 4.6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge…

*Because we’ve lost memory*.

I think it’s basically an identity problem. And it’s profound.

The truth is out there ! Search for it !
I am done. Blessings to all !


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## Guitarhero (Jul 29, 2011)

moonglowdiva said:


> *To some degree.... yes. I do believe that as a race we may have a sin problem moreso. Sin is what puts a person under a curse. We have a high rate fof illegitimacy. That is sin and it put a person back under the old covenant and then have sex outside of marriage... sin and it puts back under the old covenant. A lot of time in the negro community, we will go to church and confess to have Christ yet sinning like there is not consequence to our action. That is being lukewarm... the worst condition one can find himself. *


*

Believe me, whites don't get a pass on that either.  They just have more knowledge on how NOT to get preggers.  They shtoop just as much outside of marriage.  As far as corrupt ministers, have you ever heard of the molestation cases at my Church?   *


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## PraiseAngel (Jul 29, 2011)

I don't believe Black people are cursed. Every group of people at some point have gone through trials and tributions Blacks being no different.


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## Guitarhero (Jul 29, 2011)

My particular community doesn't need redeeming more than any other.  Our trials might be many, but we're still here.  The difference I see is in the mindset.  We have pride.  We also believe in ourselves, in our abilities, in our humanity and in our ways.  One biggest difference particularly with the traditionals...we don't see the "white" way as superior and something to attain.  The eagle, clouds, wind, rock in the stream...are all important and a part of creation...are a part of us.  We're earth-based and realize the importance of community.  We want the old ways (spiritual).  If Black people, at large, can look to tradition and see that money and status (as that achieved by whites) is not the prize, then they will awaken to reclaim what they have lost...human dignity.  It's the chasing after what they perceive to be success that is literally killing them.  One needs to change his mindset, one person at a time, multiplied by many.   Money and status adorn the outside...not the inside of the person.


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## MyInvisibleChyrsalis (Aug 5, 2011)

I know why there's emnity between Satan and the woman, but maybe our dark skin and features resemble Jesus and Mary? Dark skin and "African" features are looked down upon worldwide so maybe that's why? Jeuss was treated as the lowest of the low, right? Who knows.


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## makeupgirl (Aug 6, 2011)

Yes there is a curse on black people.  And on Hispanics. And on Asians.  And on Indians.  And on Europeans.  Point is, if you're human and you're on this earth, you're automatically cursed via Adam's sin.  Not one particular race of people is singled out or cursed.  

Me...the day I accepted Christ as Lord and Savior, that curse was lifted.  So if you're in Christ, Hello, you're a new creature, you have been set free.  You're no longer under the bondage of sin, curses, or anything else.  

I'm not trying to be funny but Why does race always come into topics on these forums?


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