# Spirits of the Deceased



## aribell (Jul 24, 2012)

(please don't quote, I'll probably delete later) Hey ladies, I had a conversation with a friend who has been mourning the death of his father for several months now. He is a Christian who knows Scripture and said that while he has always known all the doctrines about the deceased being unable to communicate with the living, that he senses his father's presence very often. He said his grandmother said there was a particular time when he came into the room with her. All of these people are longtime Bible-believing Christians who do not play in such things.

So, can we talk a bit about this? Is this just a familiar spirit? That is what I was thinking, but didn't want to say it at the time. Also, my friend said that he's been talking to his (deceased) father a lot, and I wondered if, for that reason, there might be this familiar spirit sticking around, since he's speaking to it.

Further, how would you address this situation with a believer who is still grieving?





No quotes!​


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## gn1g (Jul 24, 2012)

I've experienced the same thing, and I don't call it a familiar spirit.  I've talked to them and they have said things that were very true and helped me tremendously.  but they do eventually go away.


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## Shimmie (Jul 24, 2012)

Hi Nicola...  

Huge Clue Here:   Huge  

Your friend is unable to 'let go' of his Father's passing.   Even though he and his mother are strong believers, know the Word of God, it's evident that the Word isn't operating in this area of his and her heart.    

It's hard losing someone that you are connected to.  It's hard.  It's as if someone has snatched one's soul away.   The longer they hold on the more dangerous spiritually it becomes.  This is where people get involved in seances (sp?) and other works of darkness.  

The enemy has found an 'open door' and is toying with your friend and his mother.   The dead do not speak...period.   And if a spirit can tell a person anything which is 'familiar', it is clear that it is a 'familiar spirit' and not one of God.  

This is how Carlton Pearson got so far off track that he's lost and still in utter darkness and confusion.  This... once a powerful, explosive and in the Word, man of God who is now in a grave state of confusion, spiritually.

Keep your friend in prayer, serious prayer.   Bind the strong man and the spirit of grief from his and his mother's heart, for it has surely taken its toll. This is where they were the weakest and it is how satan has been able to come in.   Somewhere along the line, your friend was not guarded in this area of his life.   He needs God's protection and the Blood applied to his weaknesses.    

I sense a spirit of unforgiveness here (within the family); therefore a spirit of guilt for an unresolved issue in this family may be prevailing with a deep regret for not mending the hurts before his dad passed away.    One thing is certain, God is not in this spirit's presence, not at all.   

Love and prayers to your friend.   

ETA:   Nicola... you have a gift to 'observe' and discern; and it's sharp.  You are rarely off target.  God is using you and I am not surprised that you already know what's truly going on.  Because he's your friend, you wanted to be sure.  That's good.


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## PinkPebbles (Jul 24, 2012)

........................................................................................................


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## MrsHaseeb (Jul 24, 2012)

I know we all hate to look at it this way but that's demonic... God's Word is the ultimate authority and yes those are demons coming in the form of familiar spirits, or people you know who have died. My uncle is on drugs and says my dead aunts and grandmothers talk to him all the time. The only spirit I want communicating with me is the Holy Spirit. Anything else is demonic activity. The devil can transform himself into an angel of light. We as people of God ned to be careful with things like this. I know it hurts to lose a family member and we all look to be comforted but the line must be drawn with talking to the spirits of dead people. The Holy Spirit is our comforter. We need to lean on Him. And as far as the "spirits" saying things that sound truthful, lets not be deceived by things like this. The Word of God says the Holy Spirit leads and guides us into truth, not the spirits of "dead relatives".


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## Shimmie (Jul 24, 2012)

gn1g said:


> I've experienced the same thing, and I don't call it a familiar spirit.  I've talked to them and they have said things that were very true and helped me tremendously.  but they do eventually go away.



It's a familiar spirit, Babygirl... God warns us to not communicate with them as they are deceptive; the more one believes they are 'true family' members, the more one is in danger of becoming dependent upon what these 'spirits' have to say as opposed to what saith the Lord.  

satan knows how to distract and deceive and what better way than to come as an 'angel of light' or in the image of a much loved family member to gain 'your' trust and capture your heart.  

This is why the world is so messed up and in total confusion.  The spirit of darkness has been bearing false light and has captured the hearts of many who believe them to be the 'true light', yet they are not.   

No stones, no condemnation, just sharing ... I promise.


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## Shimmie (Jul 24, 2012)

MrsHaseeb said:


> I know we all hate to look at it this way but that's demonic... God's Word is the ultimate authority and yes those are demons coming in the form of familiar spirits, or people you know who have died. My uncle on drugs and says my dead aunts and grandmothers talk to him all the time. The only spirit I want communicating with me is the Holy Spirit. Anything else is demonic activity.
> 
> *The devil can transform himself into an angel of light. *
> 
> We as people of God ned to be careful with things like this. I know it hurts to lose a family member and we all look yo be comforted but the line must be drawn with talking to the spirits of dead people. The Holy Spirit is our comforter. We need to lean on Him. And as far as the "spirits" saying things that sound truthful, lets not be deceived by things like this. The Word of God says the Holy Spirit leads and guides us into truth, not the spirits of "dead relatives".



We posted the same message at the same time.  Yours at 11:59 a.m. and Mine at 12:00.    

Praise God...


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## MrsHaseeb (Jul 24, 2012)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> We posted the same message at the same time.  Yours at 11:59 a.m. and Mine at 12:00.
> 
> Praise God...



And I read your post thinking wow that's the same thing that came to my mind.

You have such a kind sweet spirit and such a kind way with words. I always look forward to your posts. I'm working on that area of my life (gentleness) ...


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## Shimmie (Jul 24, 2012)

MrsHaseeb said:


> And I read your post thinking wow that's the same thing that came to my mind.
> 
> You have such a kind sweet spirit and such a kind way with words. I always look forward to your posts. I'm working on that area of my life (gentleness) ...



My 'kids' and those who know me will say different...  

However, :welcome3:  this is the first time I've noticed your name.  I pray that I will always be used of God to bless you.  

Again...


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## MrsHaseeb (Jul 24, 2012)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> My 'kids' and those who know me will say different...
> 
> However, :welcome3:  this is the first time I've noticed your name.  I pray that I will always be used of God to bless you.
> 
> Again...



I have been lurking for years. I read and get info more than I post. I notice that you're good friends with Nice & Wavy. I'm positive she has never seen my name either but she is also one whose posts touch me. She hasn't been around recently. The only reason I responded here is because of the spirit husband/wife thread. It made me go do some research. I'm learning that these are nothing to play with and felt compelled to post.


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## Shimmie (Jul 24, 2012)

It hurts being in threads like this.  The pain of losing someone you love is beyond words... far beyond.   

I don't ever want to take someone's experience and minimize it, nor do I want to 'preach' or trumpet the rights and the wrongs, the demons and the deceptions as if the person sharing their experience has need of it.  

If nothing more, I hate the devil.  I hate how he plays on peoples broken hearts if not when a loved one passes, he plays on the hearts of broken relationships, marriages, family members, best friends, business associates.   

The enemy is truly named 'the enemy of our souls' for a reason; for it is our souls that he manipulates and tramples upon, however as the coward that he is, he does so when we are at our weakest moment. 

And THIS is how he comes in when a loved one passes away; at our weakest moment, our moments of deep loss and grief; our moments of still grasping the reality and struggling to let go of denial (i.e. 'No, he/she is not really gone...it's just a dream; this can't be real), this is when satan comes in as 'Mom, Dad, Sister, Brother'... the Spirit Husband/Wife... etc.  

When my baby died, I still felt him in my arms and I still smelled his baby scent; I dreamed that he was crying and that I still had to wake up to feed him, change him and most of all, hold him.  I wasn't ready to let go.  

PinkPebbles, I still have voicemails of my Mom's messages that she left me at work and at home.   I think many of the members here remember when she passed away in January 2010; I'm still holding on to her.  

When I share regarding topics such as these, my heart is not hardened neither is it striking to tear down the broken hearts.    I'm striking the enemy of lies instead.  

I hope this post is making sense; most of all that it's loving, for it is.


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## Shimmie (Jul 24, 2012)

MrsHaseeb said:


> I have been lurking for years. I read and get info more than I post. I notice that you're good friends with Nice & Wavy. I'm positive she has never seen my name either but she is also one whose posts touch me. She hasn't been around recently. The only reason I responded here is because of the spirit husband/wife thread. It made me go do some research. I'm learning that these are nothing to play with and felt compelled to post.



:blush3:  I better behave myself... 

Nice & Wavy and her husband have a powerful Ministry which keeps them very busy, yet they love it.   She'll be so blessed to see your post.  

That 'spirit husband/wife' thread is definitely nothing to play with.  I'm so glad you're here posting.   I wish you nothing but blessings and love.


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## MrsHaseeb (Jul 24, 2012)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> It hurts being in threads like this.  The pain of losing someone you love is beyond words... far beyond.
> 
> I don't ever want to take someone's experience and minimize it, nor do I want to 'preach' or trumpet the rights and the wrongs, the demons and the deceptions as if the person sharing their experience has need of it.
> 
> ...



Thank you. I wanted to post on this but I could tell it was a sensitive topic and didn't want to say the wrong thing. Your post was beautiful and I understood perfectly.


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## Shimmie (Jul 24, 2012)

MrsHaseeb said:


> Thank you. I wanted to post on this but I could tell it was a sensitive topic and didn't want to say the wrong thing. Your post was beautiful and I understood perfectly.



It's so true when people say, _"I wish I knew what to say"_, when someone has a loss.  I'm learning that 'being there' is the only answer. 

Thank you MrsHaseeb for 'being here' and 'there' for those in your life.   God is using you, even when there seems to be resistance.


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## PinkPebbles (Jul 24, 2012)

Shimmie said:


> It hurts being in threads like this. The pain of losing someone you love is beyond words... far beyond.
> 
> I don't ever want to take someone's experience and minimize it, nor do I want to 'preach' or trumpet the rights and the wrongs, the demons and the deceptions as if the person sharing their experience has need of it.
> 
> ...


 

Shimmie I know you came from a place of love....and I understand.

I shared all three experiences for a reason. The first two where from God and I didn't want to go into too much detail. 

For clarity I'll say this...before my mom passed she could not talk or move. My grandparents and I did not know the state of my mom's salvation. The day before my mom passed I grabbed her hand and got on my knees in hospice and prayed for her salvation. She couldn't talk so I talked for her and she really appreciated that b/c she spoke with her eyes and tears. Nobody knew what I've done so the dream I had in #1 was from God, and my grandparents experience in #2 was from God as well. It was confirming to us that all is well.

You are right about the enemy which is why I shared #3. 

Thanks:Rose:


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## PinkPebbles (Jul 24, 2012)

Shimmie 

I'd like to delete my original post....if you don't mind can you please edit your post with my quote?

Thank you so much.


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## Shimmie (Jul 24, 2012)

Thanks 'Sweet' Pebbles....  (yes...   'Sweet Pebbles').


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## Shimmie (Jul 24, 2012)

PinkPebbles... 

Sure... I'll do right now.


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## Laela (Jul 24, 2012)

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## Misseyl (Jul 24, 2012)

This is just my take on the matter.  I wasn’t going to post but I just want to share some of my almost 50 years of existence on this earth.

I'm far from telling anyone what to believe but IMHO spirits exist and they do speak to the living.  I've have so many instances that I'm not about to call them all coincidences. Have you ever experienced thinking of someone and then that person shows up or thinking of phoning someone then they phone you.  I’m speaking moments later, the person will show up or phone. 

My father passed away in 2008 and one of the last times that I saw him he shook my hand.  Well, not too long after, say days later, I received a job offer.  Now is that a coincidence that I dreamt of him shaking my hand and landing a job, I'll say not.  Or someone/something/thinking… telling you someone is dead and moments later seeing that person dead, I'll say not.   

Long ago my sister and I believed we encountered a spirit.  The experience was not scary as most would think, it was serene, calm, illuminating and I felt as if I was levitating.  Now both of us could be wrong but we did encounter something and I choose to call it a spirit because I know no other word to describe it.  I could go on about other incidences but what difference would it make.  People talk about dying death, and judgment and I believe judgment is when you are dying because you are leaving the physical and moving on to who knows what.  

It took a while for me to stop mourning for my father but in the end I know we’ll be in the same place soon, I hope not too soon but soon.  For now I have moments when I think of him and I know I will never forget him.  I bet when I’m dying I will probably see someone familiar because when I came into this world, I was not by myself, someone was here to greet me so I don’t want to think that when I die I will find myself all alone.

I know I omit evil spirits but IMO if the person is evil then he/she will encounter evil spirits.  It's like birds of a feather flock together.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Jul 24, 2012)

The reason they are called familiar spirits is because they are familiar with us, from our birth to our death they go everywhere with us are privy to our conversations and habits and they know our secrets etc.  so it (the familiar spirit) can come and deceive us with conversation and play on our emotions because they know us intimately.


in 2009 I also lost my mother to pancreatic cancer, she deteriated quickly ... 

all my family members had some kind 'visitation' except me, acutally I was a little hurt, I was grieving for my mom and all of them was by her bedside except me when she died, so why couldn't I have gotten a visitation then I remembered the scriptures that did not support that way I felt (the same ones Laela posted) and quickly shook out of it.

How cunning and the deceptive the devil is...


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Jul 24, 2012)

Without offense or ill intent to anyone; another thing that I want to say here is we must be aware of another deception; there is a process for grieving, we need to be careful that our departed loved ones are not idols before God or that we dont have a soul ties with them, that when they die our lives stop because we can't go on without them...

We are not to grieve as other do without any hope, if your loved one dies in Christ then we have cause to rejoice their souls are not lost...


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## aribell (Jul 24, 2012)

Thanks so much ladies.  I'll be back!


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## Shimmie (Jul 24, 2012)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> Without offense or ill intent to anyone; another thing that I want to say here is we must be aware of another deception; there is a process for grieving, we need to be careful that our departed loved ones are not idols before God or that we dont have a soul ties with them, that when they die our lives stop because we can't go on without them...
> 
> We are not to grieve as other do without any hope, if your loved one dies in Christ then we have cause to rejoice their souls are not lost...



I have to 'remind' myself of this, thanks Iwanthealthyhair67 

I held onto my baby's curls for years and as I shared above, I still have my Mom's voice messages.   'We' (not everyone...I'm using a general sense of 'we') tend to hold onto whatever we can to keep that person 'alive' and 'with' us.    

I'm so guilty of this...  I saved some of my Mom's clothes; I've even worn them in spite of the fact that skirts are too long for me.   Her clothes were so pretty; she wore long flowy skirts a lot ...  

It's what I'm still holding onto of her.   I am fully aware that there are no spirits that are allowed to come anywhere near me.   Yet, I hold onto the tangible of what she left.  

We had a hard time selling her house, not because of the economy, but our younger sister couldn't let go.  She wanted to stay there, however, the house had to go.   

I understand how hard it is for others...


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Jul 24, 2012)

@Shimmie when my mother died we shared her night clothes and all the girls got a pajama or night gown, we did the same when my grandmother died...there is nothing wrong with keeping an item or a picture is when the items are more than items to us..

Everyone now and then I would sleep in my mothers night dress, at first it was to feel close to her, now I sleep in it because it's a night dress I know it was my mothers but I am no longer grieving ..I miss her and think about her from time to time but there is no grief, my mother was a woman of God and so I know that she will live again...

my cousin on the other hand is another story she and our grandmother were extremely close, she saved towels that belonged to our granmother, the other day someone (they didn't know the towels were untouchable) went into the linen closet and used the towels and my cousin had the hysterics ...something is wrong with that picture

Just like in my office one of the executives died trajically 5 years ago and his office is exactly the way he left it a museum for a dead man and he didn't beleive in God, or least it was exactly the way he left it, I sometimes have lunch at his conference table and some of my work I leave in there for easy access ...


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## auparavant (Jul 24, 2012)

Remember the Communion of the Saints?  That truth hasn't changed, no matter what the new personal beliefs are.


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## sweetvi (Jul 24, 2012)

Shimmie

Who is Carlton Pearson and what happened to him


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## Shimmie (Jul 24, 2012)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> @Shimmie when my mother died we shared her night clothes and all the girls got a pajama or night gown, we did the same when my grandmother died...there is nothing wrong with keeping an item or a picture is when the items are more than items to us..
> 
> Everyone now and then I would sleep in my mothers night dress, at first it was to feel close to her, now I sleep in it because it's a night dress I know it was my mothers but I am no longer grieving ..I miss her and think about her from time to time but there is no grief, my mother was a woman of God and so I know that she will live again...
> 
> ...



  Thank you Beautiful Sister... I mean it ... thank you.     My daughter has my Mom's nightgowns and one of her T-shirts; she and my Mom were very close as my daughter was the very first granddaughter.  My Mom adored and spoiled her and my son.  

We gave the rest of her clothes away to the Church, it was too many to keep.  We didn't need them but so many others did.     (I'm starting to feel 'weepy' now)... 

BTW:  Iwanthealthyhair67

*Healthy Hair...* I have to share this for the record....

when I wear my Mom's skirts, please believe that I don't look like 'Little House on the Prairie'...    I don't want any of you to be 'concerned' or fearful of meeting me in person and seeing me in this longgggg, dragging skirt, tripping my way to greet you...     I still have some style and dignity... even in my 'Mommie's skirts.    They are big in the waist but I have that fixed with a needle and thread and a safety pin when needed.  :blush3:


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## Galadriel (Jul 24, 2012)

nicola.kirwan 

Death is the separation of the soul from the body, and our souls are immortal. (Just wanted to reiterate that since some here apparently believe that your soul somehow "sleeps" or falls into unconsciousness until the Second Coming)

Those who are members of the Body of Christ, especially those who die and go to heaven, are saints. The saints in heaven remain fully conscious and aware of who they are, etc. 

From the times of the Apostles and early Church, the belief in the Communion of Saints have been professed. The Communion of Saints is the spiritual communion shared among members of the Body of Christ on earth and in heaven. When I die, I don't stop being a member of the Body of Christ. 

The saints in Heaven worship God, offer prayers, and with God's permission can speak to us here on earth.

I do not know the specifics of your friend's situation and what the purpose is (does your friend claim to talk to his deceased father as in having casual conversation? Or does he believe his dad is simply relaying the message "Don't worry, I'm OK."?)


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## Shimmie (Jul 24, 2012)

sweetvi said:


> Shimmie
> 
> Who is Carlton Pearson and what happened to him



  Hi Sweetvi  :Rose:

Carlton's story is another example of how grieving for loved ones is an open door for satan to come in and wreck havoc in one's life, even to the point of tearing them away from the truth.       

Carlton had a powerful Ministry and the annointing of God was definitely with him.   However, his grief over his parents dying without Jesus Christ got the best of him and he began teaching there there is no hell or devil.   He could not believe that God would send/allow his parents to suffer in hell.   

Years Prior to his 'fall' ...  He studied under Katherine Kulman, Oral Roberts University (studied and taught); Kenneth Hagan and many of the other 'ancient's of that era in Ministry.  He was also close to TD Jakes. 

For years he was known as the "Single Pastor" (unmarried) and was sought after by many women to become his wife.    It was in the early 1990's when he met his wife Gina and they married and had two beautiful children.

Later in the mid to late 1990's Carlton began to show signs of change.   At first, those who were close to him were in dis-belief and yet they had to accept that something wrong was indeed going on with Carlton.     Carlton was set in his doctrine of no hell or devil.  He began to teach heavily on a new coined phraze "the Gospel of Inclusion" which stated 'everyone goes to heaven, gays, as well as other non Christian faiths....   *sigh*  This is so sad.  

Of course there was division in the body; he lost his 'Mega Church' Ministry and the irony is that his change left him 'open' to a Lesbian Minister who came to give him 'solace' which was actually an entrapment as Carlton in his brokeness began to embrace the gay church ministry.  

I know this 'first hand' as Carlton was a very close friend and actually 'family' to our Church.  He ministered at our Church often; he was never 'too good' to sit with anyone, no matter who they were and talk and laugh and especially pray with them.   To this day, everyone that I know from my former Church still grieve over the change in this man's heart and are still praying for him and his family.  

Recently I read that the gay church where he as 'leading' as Pastor has asked him to 'step down', for they wanted someone else with more experience...  in that area of ministry.       

I have no doubt that God can use this as a vehicle to bring Carlton back where he belongs preaching and teaching all the more the True Gospel of Jesus Christ.      Enough is Enough...  

Jesus said, 'Simon, Simon satan desires to have you and to sift you as wheat..."

This is what satan is out to do when someone is grieving... sift them as wheat and to tear them away from the fold of Jesus Christ...


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## loulou7 (Jul 24, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> @nicola.kirwan
> 
> Death is the separation of the soul from the body, and our souls are immortal. (Just wanted to reiterate that since some here apparently believe that your soul somehow "sleeps" or falls into unconsciousness until the Second Coming)
> 
> ...


 
Galadriel, that's very interesting about you stating that part of you die and another part of you lives on and go to heaven. Could you reference some text from The Bible confirming this? 

I understood from The Scriptures that death is just the reversal of when G-d made mankind. He created them out of the dust of the ground and breathes into their nostrils and they became a living soul. When The G-d given breath is gone - they return back to the dust. 

When they die, their thoughts perish and they wait in the dusty earth, rising in the first resurrection to eternal life; in the second resurrection to eternal damnation. 

The Bible states people who went to heaven such as Enoch, Elijah, people who rose from the dead during the great earthquake when Jesus gave his life for us. 

I know a lot of paganism has subtlety worked its way into the Christian church and is accepted as The Gospel.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Jul 24, 2012)

If my my mom came back to tell me that she is okay; I'd be rebuking that familiar spirit, I KNOW she is okay she died in Christ.


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## Shimmie (Jul 24, 2012)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> If my my mom came back to tell me that she is okay; I'd be rebuking that familiar spirit, I KNOW she is okay she died in Christ.



Healthy Hair... I know that's right....   

And Sis, I'll take it further.   I don't take kindly to anything waking me up from my sleep.    I *need* my naps and night's beauty sleep, which is where I'm headed right now.   

I love you precious sister...   

Sweet sleep everyone...


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## Galadriel (Jul 24, 2012)

loulou7 said:


> @Galadriel, that's very interesting about you stating that part of you die and another part of you lives on and go to heaven. Could you reference some text from The Bible confirming this?
> 
> I understood from The Scriptures that death is just the reversal of when G-d made mankind. He created them out of the dust of the ground and breathes into their nostrils and they became a living soul. When The G-d given breath is gone - they return back to the dust.
> 
> ...



Man is composed of a physical body and a rational, immortal soul. Death is the separation of the body and soul. Upon death, Jesus Christ judges our soul:

*And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment*, (Hebrews 9:27)

The soul either goes to Heaven, or to descends immediately into Hell for eternity.

*Our Lord Jesus Christ tells us, "And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the  soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell."* Matthew 10:28

There is also Our Lord's words to the thief on the Cross:

*Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”** Jesus answered him, **“Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”*  (Luke 23:42-43)

Peter tells us that when Christ Himself died on the Cross, He went to preach to the souls of the righteous who had died before His arrival:

*For  Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous,  to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by  the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison* (1 Peter 3:18-19)

Paul also tells us:* We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. For  we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one  may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body,  whether good or bad.* (2 Corinthians 5:7-10)

And who could forget the martyr, Stephen who was stoned for testifying to the truth of the Gospel? (Acts 7:55-59)

*But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit,   looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open   and the Son of Man   standing at the right hand of God.”* *At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, dragged him out of the city   and began to stone him.   Meanwhile, the witnesses   laid their coats   at the feet of a young man named Saul. While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”*


The belief in an immortal soul, and that the soul goes to heaven (or hell) immediately upon death, is found in both Scripture and Tradition, and has been constantly witnessed to by the Church. You are mistaken that this belief is pagan or that pagan beliefs infiltrated Christianity.


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## loulou7 (Jul 25, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> Man is composed of a physical body and a rational, immortal soul. Death is the separation of the body and soul. Upon death, Jesus Christ judges our soul:
> 
> *And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment*, (Hebrews 9:27)
> 
> ...


 

_You know if we are seeking truth, the Holy Spirit will guide us accordingly. I'm only going to address two of the verses you listed. _

*Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”* (Luke 23:42-43)

_Jesus didn’t even go to heaven that day (Friday) he was taken down from the cross and was placed in the tomb. He’s giving reassurance to the thief that he would be saved. _

_Paul also tells us:* We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.* (2 Corinthians 5:7-10)_

_Paul is just stating the obvious, being cloth with immortality instead of facing death. He would be contradicting himself when he clearly states in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15 about what happens to the dead._

_Everyone is in the ground waiting for Jesus return, so we don't need to be sorrowful as the heathens, who have no hope._

_He continues that those which are sleep in Jesus will rise first and then the living righteous will be caught up together with them. _

_It wouldn't make sense for the people who die in Christ to go to straight to heaven, then come back from heaven and lay back in their coffins so Jesus can then raise them up again. And besides, it wouldn't be much like heaven for them, if our (dead) people were involved with what was going on down here, concerning our trials and tribulations._

_He also states in 1Corinthians 15:51-55 about how now - we are mortal and corruptible, but when Jesus comes back we will  then be changed in an instant to become immortal and incorruptible. That would speak against anyone being immortal at this point. _

_Again, The Scriptures states the dead know not ANYTHING. Their thoughts, love, hatred, etc...neither have they any portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Ecclesiastes 9: 5-6_

_Ecclesiastes 12:7 states: Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was and the spirit (breath of G-d) shall return unto G-d who gave it. _

_I certainly don't want my relatives, who've died in Christ to come back with any messages; I'll definitely be calling on Jesus to get rid of that evil spirit._

_By the way, it would've been a cruel joke on Lazarus, if Jesus had called him back down from heaven after he had been dead for four days. Lazarus never spoke about being in heaven. _

*Man is composed of a physical body and a rational, immortal soul. *

_Greek mythology teaches the same thing. Part of man is living although they have died. The part that died is mortal; the part that continues to live after you have taken your last breath is immortal. This is not Biblical. We can also take this teaching all the way back to Egypt. Having "wakes" is part of this doctrine, too. _

_Anyway, as I stated earlier if we are asking the Lord for His Holy Spirit, it will lead us into all truths. _

_Personally, when I'm studying The Word, I don't get the impression that the "dead that don't know anything" would be asking for G-d for permission to converse with me. _



_I'm gathering from your siggy that you may be Catholic; if so my Great-Grandmother was to and I'm familiar with what they believe... _

_Saints in heaven praying for you, purgatory, the dead still contacting you is part of the belief system. _


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## Belle Du Jour (Jul 25, 2012)

loulou7 said:


> When they die, their thoughts perish and they wait in the dusty earth, rising in the first resurrection to eternal life; in the second resurrection to eternal damnation.



Hmm, even when I was Protestant, I wasn't taught that you return to the earth--body and soul--in some sort of sleep state. erplexed  I don't want to misinterpret what you're saying, but is that what you're saying?  I've always believed that at death, the soul leaves the body and (hopefully) returns to God.  Body and soul will be reunited and made pure after the second coming.


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## Belle Du Jour (Jul 25, 2012)

loulou7 said:


> _Ecclesiastes 12:7 states: Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was and the spirit (breath of G-d) shall return unto G-d who gave it. _



This seems to go against your point--the soul returns to God.  Also, in John's vision in Revelations, he mentions seeing saints before the throne of God and their prayers being offered up as incense.


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## LucieLoo12 (Jul 25, 2012)

I agree with everyone else. This is demonic..This reminds me of when Whitney Houston died and her daughter told Oprah she feels her mom all the time and even talks with her, I wanted to tell her so bad "Baby pray and cast that down"  When a person dies they are no longer in this earthly realm. I can understand memories making you feel close to the person, but not a actual presence. And I read a previous poster said that it would tell them things, that it not good! One should immediately began to pray that spirit away. The enemy likes to prey on pain and when we are vulnerable, but we must always be sober and rely on the word of God to depict what is true and what's not.


Just my 2 cents


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## Shimmie (Jul 25, 2012)

LucieLoo12 said:


> I agree with everyone else. This is demonic..This reminds me of when Whitney Houston died and her daughter told Oprah she feels her mom all the time and even talks with her, I wanted to tell her so bad "Baby pray and cast that down"  When a person dies they are no longer in this earthly realm. I can understand memories making you feel close to the person, but not a actual presence. And I read a previous poster said that it would tell them things, that it not good! One should immediately began to pray that spirit away. The enemy likes to prey on pain and when we are vulnerable, but we must always be sober and rely on the word of God to depict what is true and what's not.
> 
> 
> Just my 2 cents



Vigilant and Sober Minded... that's what the Word of God says we are to be.  

I'd say that's worth a million plus.... God's Wisdom and Protection which is far above Rubies, Silver or Gold.   

The enemy is out to gain a person's trust which is why he comes in the form of a loved one who has passed.  Once he has gained the person's trust, he'll begin telling them other things to do, say, think and feel, misleading them away from the true voice of the Lord.

satan is such a coward... he knows that no one would ever take heed to him in his real form and image /and his voice which is not the voice of God.


Thank God for the Words of Jesus:

My Sheep know my voice... the voice of a 'stranger' they will not follow ...


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## MrsHaseeb (Jul 25, 2012)

Galadriel said:
			
		

> Man is composed of a physical body and a rational, immortal soul. Death is the separation of the body and soul. Upon death, Jesus Christ judges our soul:
> 
> And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, (Hebrews 9:27)
> 
> ...



I don't think anyone was talking  about the soul being immortal.. It was about the spirits of the dead talking to the living which is very much demonic. These are 2 completely different things. God's Word does not support the spirit of the dead talking to the living.


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## MrsHaseeb (Jul 25, 2012)

And since we are on the soul, here is what the Word says: 

 (KJV)Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Why would it say here that the Word can divide the spirit and the soul??? Well, the soul is carnal. Your carnal/sinful nature that you war against is that soulish nature... I read an awesome book on prayer that said that the connotation of carnal in the Greek actually means soulish. Our spirits are saved when we submit to God, not our souls. Our souls are what we have to control and make obey the Word. Some may disagree but do the research its true. Do a word search for soul in the bible and you will see a pattern... Many times sin is attributed to the soul. 

 (KJV)Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.


So let me reiterate, the dead should not be talking to the living. Have a blessed day all! 

I may delete this later!


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## Galadriel (Jul 25, 2012)

MrsHaseeb said:


> I don't think anyone was talking  about the soul being immortal.. It was about the spirits of the dead talking to the living which is very much demonic. These are 2 completely different things. God's Word does not support the spirit of the dead talking to the living.



Well as you can see from loulou's responses, she believes that the soul is inactive/unconscious/nonexistent at death. If someone believes that your soul "sleeps" at death and is aware of nothing, then of course it would follow that they reject the Communion of Saints.

Another reason why I touched upon the soul being immortal and a Christian going to heaven to be with Jesus when they die is the fact that the souls of the saints are still part of the Church, united with the saints here on earth, and are aware of us here on earth and pray for us. Because of the Communion of Saints, I don't automatically judge a person experiencing an apparition of a person from heaven as "demonic." I judge on a case-by-case basis.


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## Galadriel (Jul 25, 2012)

MrsHaseeb said:


> And since we are on the soul, here is what the Word says:
> 
> (KJV)Hebrews 4:12
> For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
> ...



That interpretation is wrong. Sin is connected with the soul because we have rational souls (i.e., the capacity to distinguish and choose between good and evil). This is why we are morally and spiritually responsible for the good and evil that we commit, because we have rational souls.

The body, with its concupiscence, is what we strive to control and bring into submission. In fact the root for "carnal," literally meaning "meat," refers to the physical body, not the soul. The soul is NOT physical and the soul is not the body. We are made up of both body and soul.

The body = physical, mortal, perishable

The soul = spiritual, immortal

Death is the separation of body and soul. The soul exists and is fully conscious upon and after death, and is immediately judged by Christ. "It is appointed for men to die once, then after that is the judgment," Hebrews 9:27

When Christ returns to judge the living and the dead, we will be resurrected, our souls joining our bodies again. The righteous will have glorified bodies like Jesus Christ and His Mother, and the damned will be punished both body and soul in Hell (Matthew 10:28).



MrsHaseeb said:


> (KJV)Ezekiel 18:20
> The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.



This is not speaking of physical death (separation of soul and body), this is spiritual death, which is the deprivation of sanctifying grace and makes you spiritually dead to God (i.e., damned). The souls in Hell are damned, and are spiritually dead to God.


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## Galadriel (Jul 25, 2012)

loulou7 said:


> _You know if we are seeking truth, the Holy Spirit will guide us accordingly. I'm only going to address two of the verses you listed. _




I'm sorry, but with a clearly erroneous view on the soul, I'm more prone to think that you interpret on your own, and then _claiming_ the Holy Spirit is guiding you.




loulou7 said:


> *Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”* (Luke 23:42-43)
> 
> _Jesus didn’t even go to heaven that day (Friday) he was taken down from the cross and was placed in the tomb. He’s giving reassurance to the thief that he would be saved. _




Christ actually went that day to paradise, where He preached to the spirits awaiting Him (as Peter explained in his epistle).




loulou7 said:


> _Paul is just stating the obvious, being cloth with immortality instead of facing death. He would be contradicting himself when he clearly states in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15 about what happens to the dead._




Actually you're misinterpreting Paul. To be absent in the body (physically dead) is to be present with the Lord. He understood perfectly that upon his death he would be with Christ.



loulou7 said:


> _Everyone is in the ground waiting for Jesus return, so we don't need to be sorrowful as the heathens, who have no hope._




The bodies are waiting for the Resurrection, but the souls of the saints are in heaven with God, and the souls of the damned are in Hell.



loulou7 said:


> _It wouldn't make sense for the people who die in Christ to go to straight to heaven, then come back from heaven and lay back in their coffins so Jesus can then raise them up again.
> 
> Who said anything about the saints coming to lay down in coffins?
> 
> And besides, it wouldn't be much like heaven for them, if our (dead) people were involved with what was going on down here, concerning our trials and tribulations._




Throughout the Bible and history Christians have received the prayers and aid of citizens of Heaven (the holy angels), but I'm sure the angels are still enjoying Heaven. The saints in Heaven likewise serve at God's pleasure.



loulou7 said:


> _He also states in 1Corinthians 15:51-55 about how now - we are mortal and corruptible, but when Jesus comes back we will  then be changed in an instant to become immortal and incorruptible. That would speak against anyone being immortal at this point. _




We are mortal and corruptible in that we die (soul separates from body) and our physical bodies decay. When Jesus resurrects us, we will have glorified bodies like Jesus did when He resurrected. 



loulou7 said:


> _Again, The Scriptures states the dead know not ANYTHING. Their thoughts, love, hatred, etc...neither have they any portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Ecclesiastes 9: 5-6_




See, this is what happens when you isolate a verse and run with it--wrong interpretation. Jesus plainly tells the Saducees, “But  now, as to whether the dead will be raised—haven’t you ever read about  this in the writings of Moses, in the story of the burning bush? Long  after Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had died, God said to Moses, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ So he is the God of the living, not the dead. You have made a serious error.”  (Matthew 12:26-27)



loulou7 said:


> _Greek mythology teaches the same thing. _



_
_Doesn't mean that an immortal soul is untrue. However you are in error when you claim that Christianity does not (or has never) taught that the soul is immortal.



loulou7 said:


> _Anyway, as I stated earlier if we are asking the Lord for His Holy Spirit, it will lead us into all truths. _




You mean the error that the soul is not immortal? I don't think the Holy Spirit is guiding that belief.

In answer to your question, yes I am Catholic. I'm assuming you're Jehovah's Witness or SDA? Most Protestants adhere to the Christian belief in the immortal soul.


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## MrsHaseeb (Jul 25, 2012)

@ Galadriel, actually I don't disagree with what you wrote. I think you misunderstood. Maybe the way I wrote it was confusing.. not sure but either way... I don't see where the bible supports talking to the spirits of the dead. That was my point. The soul part that I wrote I didn't expect everyone to agree. That's perfectly fine.


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## loulou7 (Jul 25, 2012)

@ Galadriel, I'm just going to leave this subject along, about your relative coming back and speaking with you. The Word of G-d just doesn't seem to support your point of view. But as I wrote previously, when my Great-grandmother was Catholic she believed in spirits coming back and communicating with you, too. So I understand where you are coming from... We can agree to disagree, without being disagreeable.


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## loulou7 (Jul 25, 2012)

Belle Du Jour said:


> This seems to go against your point--the soul returns to God. Also, in John's vision in Revelations, he mentions seeing saints before the throne of God and their prayers being offered up as incense.


 
No the spirit, which is the breath that G-d blew in the nostril to get you going, goes back to Him. Not a disembodied spirit that comes around with messages. Death is just the creation of man in reverse. You were made out of dust - G-d provided the life force (His breath) - then you become a living soul. You die - because the breath returns back to G-d - you go back to dust.


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## Belle Du Jour (Jul 25, 2012)

loulou7 said:


> No the spirit, which is the breath that G-d blew in the nostril to get you going, goes back to Him. Not a disembodied spirit that comes around with messages. Death is just the creation of man in reverse. You were made out of dust - G-d provided the life force (His breath) - then you become a living soul. You die - because the breath returns back to G-d - you go back to dust.



Are you equating spirit with soul because in that case, yes the spirit/soul go back to God.  If you are talking about slumber in the earth, then no, I don't agree.   That just seems so horrible.  And I don't want to put words into Galadriel's mouth, but I don't think she was talking about spirits coming back with messages???  I think she was saying that after death, we are very much alive with God (as part of the Church triumphant, if we get to Heaven), praising Him and praying for the Church militant (the earthly church).  

I also agree that when scripture taken out of context is very easy to misinterpret.  The Bible was written within a historical/traditional context that _many _Christians completely ignore for the sake of corroborating their point of view.


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## Belle Du Jour (Jul 25, 2012)

loulou7 said:


> @ Galadriel, I'm just going to leave this subject along, *about your relative coming back and speaking with you.* The Word of G-d just doesn't seem to support your point of view. But as I wrote previously, when my Great-grandmother was Catholic she believed in spirits coming back and communicating with you, too. So I understand where you are coming from... We can agree to disagree, without being disagreeable.



I went back to read Galadriel's posts but I don't think she said this.


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## Galadriel (Jul 25, 2012)

Belle Du Jour said:


> Are you equating spirit with soul because in that case, yes the spirit/soul go back to God.  If you are talking about slumber in the earth, then no, I don't agree.   That just seems so horrible.  And I don't want to put words into @Galadriel's mouth, but I don't think she was talking about spirits coming back with messages???  I think she was saying that after death, we are very much alive with God (as part of the Church triumphant, if we get to Heaven), praising Him and praying for the Church militant (the earthly church).
> 
> I also agree that when scripture taken out of context is very easy to misinterpret.  The Bible was written within a historical/traditional context that _many _Christians completely ignore for the sake of corroborating their point of view.



Well put, Belle.


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## Galadriel (Jul 25, 2012)

MrsHaseeb said:


> @ Galadriel, actually I don't disagree with what you wrote. I think you misunderstood. Maybe the way I wrote it was confusing.. not sure but either way... I don't see where the bible supports talking to the spirits of the dead. That was my point. The soul part that I wrote I didn't expect everyone to agree. That's perfectly fine.



Maybe you misunderstood the particular context I'm coming from (sometimes I don't explain myself as well as I wish to!). 

I don't believe in seances, I don't believe in sitting at my coffee table having a random conversation with someone who's deceased, etc. That's not what I'm talking about.

I believe in the Communion of Saints.

I believe that a saint in Heaven, like the angels in Heaven, can pray for us, and serve God by aiding His people here on earth as He wills. 

For example, if I ask Saint Therese to pray for me and ask God to heal my physical ailment, and I am healed, I believe that Therese has prayed for me and aided me in my petition to God. There is also the miraculous apparitions of the Virgin Mary, such as Our Lady of Guadalupe, Our Lady of Lourdes, or Our Lady of Fatima where the Mother of Jesus points us in the direction of her Son and reminds us to pray and repent.

It is always within the will and direction of God, and that is part of the Communion of Saints.


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## auparavant (Jul 25, 2012)

Jesus came back:


Resurrection...12 times from Mary to Paul before His Ascension to heaven

Transfiguration when Moses and Elijah appeared

He died and got the holy souls from Sh'eol

A host of saints who encourage devotion to Jesus and repentance.  Their work is not finished in heaven.

I believe the scriptures are pointing to "divination" and seeking to know the future from asking demonic representatives.


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## Belle Du Jour (Jul 25, 2012)

Slightly off topic, but the discussion in this thread makes me think there should be a spin-off thread about things all Christians _used _to believe and the Biblical and other early church writings that support these beliefs.  I suspect a lot of what Galadriel and auparavant are saying sounds strange to say the least if you don't understand the basis for it.  If nothing else, simply for all Christians to consider and understand the history of our faith regardless of whether we choose to adhere to these beliefs today.   Thoughts?


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## Galadriel (Jul 25, 2012)

Belle Du Jour said:


> Slightly off topic, but the discussion in this thread makes me think there should be a spin-off thread about things all Christians _used _to believe and the Biblical and other early church writings that support these beliefs.  I suspect a lot of what @Galadriel and @auparavant are saying sounds strange to say the least if you don't understand the basis for it.  If nothing else, simply for all Christians to consider and understand the history of our faith regardless of whether we choose to adhere to these beliefs today.   Thoughts?



That would be cool .


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## Galadriel (Jul 25, 2012)

auparavant said:


> Jesus came back:
> I believe the scriptures are pointing to "divination" and seeking to know the future from asking demonic representatives.



Agreed. Divination and spiritism are sinful. I think some people however throw *everything* into that category (including the Communion of Saints), especially if they don't even believe your soul goes to heaven upon death.


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## loulou7 (Jul 25, 2012)

Belle Du Jour said:


> Hmm, even when I was Protestant, I wasn't taught that you return to the earth--body and soul--in some sort of sleep state. erplexed I don't want to misinterpret what you're saying, but is that what you're saying? I've always believed that at death, the soul leaves the body and (hopefully) returns to God. Body and soul will be reunited and made pure after the second coming.


 


Hi Belle Du Jour, what I’m saying is that - from the beginning, the deceiver is the one that introduced the immortal soul. I mean that you are not fully dead; you still have some form of cognizance in death. In the Garden of Eden, the deceiver told Eve - Ye shall not surely die and ye shall be as gods.  Genesis 3:4-5 

These are the first two recorded lies from the Father of lies. Ye shall be as gods, is the basis for the New Age culture and ye shall not surely die paved the way for spiritualism and immortality of a soul. A majority of people believe this message and it is taught from many pulpits. 

When you look at the words the spirit goes back to G-d who gave it, in the biblical since this refers to the Greek word pneuma, which means breath, breeze, or current of air. We get the words such as pneumatic (air drill), pneumonia (problems with breathing), pneumatic hammer (air hammer). You noticed a theme with all the words listed? They all have references to air. 

As paganism, stealthy became interwoven into the early church (unfortunately they compromised); people started assuming that the Greek word pneuma meant a disembodied spirit and or soul that is still aware.   

This is what The Bible is saying when it states about G-d forming us out of the dust of the ground and He breaths into our nostrils and we became a living soul. If G-d takes our breath or pneuma away, we are not a living soul anymore; we go back to the dust.  G-d states dust thy art and dust shall thou return… Genesis 3:19 

Think about this, in The Word you never here one of the prophets or disciples saying anything about one of their dead colleagues coming back and sharing with them. 

The closest we get to this type of scenario is when Saul left the Lord, and sought answers from The Witch of Endor. Of course, we know the “Samuel” that appeared was an evil spirit. 1 Samuel 28: 5-20     


David understood that man isn’t conscious in death he states - His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish. Psalms 146:4 

In death there is no remembrance of Thee; in the grave who shall give the thanks. The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence. Psalms 6:5 & 115:17

Of course, his son Solomon tells you - That the living knows that day will die, but the dead know not anything. Their love, hatred, envy, is now perished, etc… Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, 10

In answer to his prayer, King Hezekiah’s life was extended for 15 more years. He praised the Lord by stating in song - The grave cannot praise Thee, death cannot celebrate Thee; they that go down into the pit cannot hope for Thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise Thee, as I do this day. Isaiah 38:18, 19   

Job mentions - In death people come to honor and mourn for you, but you know it not. Job 14:21

Peter on the day of Pentecost says - David is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day. For David isn’t ascended into the heavens Act 2:29, 34

Paul submits that - All are to be judged according to the things written the books, and to be rewarded as their works have been. He even states the specific time, after an individual is raised from the dead.

He writes - He hath appointed a day, in which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man (Jesus) whom he hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised from the dead. Act 17:31  


Jesus himself states - I go to prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you unto myself. John 14:2, 3
If we are already there with him (at death), there’s no point in him saying - I’m coming back to get you, to take you where I reside. 

So in conclusion Belle Du Jour, I stand firmly behind that the Scriptures states that in death you’re not aware of anything, you don’t communicate with anyone, and at the Second Coming of Christ - Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:2.  You haven’t went to heaven or hell, yet. You are in asleep in the earth. Since Jesus has all power, he considers death a sleep, but of course we know that to human beings it’s the end of the road, if you didn’t have a personal relationship with Him. 

After this you’ll find out if Jesus says - Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundations of the world. Matthew 15:34 or the worse words you could ever here: Depart from me, etc… Matthew 15:41


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## loulou7 (Jul 25, 2012)

_@ Galadriel, I'm just going to leave this subject along, *about your relative coming back and speaking with you.* The Word of G-d just doesn't seem to support your point of view. But as I wrote previously, when my Great-grandmother was Catholic she believed in spirits coming back and communicating with you, too. So I understand where you are coming from... We can agree to disagree, without being disagreeable._





Belle Du Jour said:


> I went back to read @Galadriel's posts but I don't think she said this.


 
Galadriel's posted: 
The saints in Heaven worship God, offer prayers, and with God's permission The saints in Heaven worship God, offer prayers, *and with God's permission can speak to us here on earth.*


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## loulou7 (Jul 25, 2012)

Belle Du Jour said:


> This seems to go against your point--the soul returns to God. Also, in John's vision in Revelations, he mentions seeing saints before the throne of God and their prayers being offered up as incense.


 
I'm gathering that you are referring to Revelation 8:3-4. 
You know that Daniel & Revelation are symbolic & prophetic books. What you are describing is Jesus being our Mediator in the Heavenly sanctuary. In the earthy sanctuary, you had the priest burning incense representing the sweet savor of the righteous people’s prayers ascending to heaven. What John is privileged to see, is our prayers (saints a.k.a. the righteous) ascending up to Jesus as a sweet smelling offering. By the way, the golden altar was before the throne of G-d.


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## Galadriel (Jul 25, 2012)

loulou7 said:


> _@ Galadriel, I'm just going to leave this subject along, *about your relative coming back and speaking with you.* The Word of G-d just doesn't seem to support your point of view. But as I wrote previously, when my Great-grandmother was Catholic she believed in spirits coming back and communicating with you, too. So I understand where you are coming from... We can agree to disagree, without being disagreeable._
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think you're taking what I'm saying out of context. Did you say you were Jehovah's Witness or SDA?


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## Galadriel (Jul 25, 2012)

Btw, loulou7 I thought that this was a commendable refutation of the heresy of "soul sleep"

Origin of the Soul Sleep Heresy

The phrase “soul sleep” per se is not a Scriptural term. *In fact, you never find the soul linked to sleep anywhere in the Bible. It is actually a hybrid heterodoxy contrived from the Biblical euphemism for the sleep-like appearance of the body at death (2 Sam. 7:12; 2 Pet. 3:4) which has been hijacked by heretics.*

A study of church history proves *soul sleep has no roots in Christian orthodoxy*, and no place in sound exegesis. And for the first three centuries of the church the immediate ascendency of the soul to Paradise (aka Heaven) at death (Luke 23:43) was never questioned. Then, according to historian Philip Schaff, *soul sleep fomented in the mind of a specious fourth century pantheist named Arnobius.* Since that time, poor exegesis has been the main mechanism soul sleepers have employed in the maintenance of their ruse. Today its champions are noteworthy indeed: atheists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christadelphianists, Old school Armstrongism, and Seventh Day Adventists. Talk about a spurious crew!...

Death as understood in the Old Testament

As previously stated, by and large, Jews were fatalists believing in a future– albeit general- resurrection: “Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise

. . . and the earth shall cast out the dead” (Isa. 26:19). To them death was lonely, somber, and somewhat fearful:

David mourned, “For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks” (Psa. 6:5).

Job anguished: “Are not my days few? cease then, and let me alone, that I may take comfort a little, Before I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death; A land of darkness, as darkness itself; and of the shadow of death, without any order, and where the light is as darkness” (Job 10:20-22).



Even though these men loved the Lord with their entire being, they seem to have been almost smothered in a blanket of despair when contemplating their own death.

Death as revealed in the New Testament

By the time of Christ, the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead was a highly debated issue. Greek philosophers like Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, and Epicurus had launched circuitous philosophies that diverted focus from God to man, and from eternal to temporal.

As the NT was written- and a new dispensation unfolded– God began unwrapping the precious yet somewhat shadowy secrets stored in the OT (1 Cor. 2:7). Not surprising, this became startling revelation to Old Testament Jews, “who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage” (Heb. 2:15).

One person the Holy Spirit chose to reveal these mysteries to was a brilliant OT scholar we know as the Apostle Paul (1 Cor. 2:7; 15:51; Eph. 1:9; 3:3). Interestingly, while Paul’s teachings in some ways mirrored the OT thought regarding bodies falling asleep at death (1 Cor. 11:30; 1 Thess. 4:14), when God revealed as many as 14 Books of the NT to Paul, He also gave him a fresh understanding of what happens to the spirit and soul at death; that it becomes absent from the body and present with the Lord  (2 Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:21). From that point forward Paul taught that death was not to be dreaded, but looked upon with anticipation and hope somewhat like a graduation (1 Cor. 15:54-55). This of course garnered the ire of his former Sanhedrin associates who now sought to kill him for teaching such things (Acts 9:23; 26:21). 

5 Great Truths Refute Soul Sleep

            There is an erroneous doctrine known as “general resurrection, general judgment” that teaches one day all the dead throughout history will be awakened from their sleep and summoned to the Great White Throne (Rev. 20:11-15) where they’ll stand before God to enter either Heaven or the Lake of Fire.

            If that is true, and Scripture proves that it is not, every saint in history should be asleep somewhere awaiting judgment. And yet, such is not the case as we will see from the testimony of Jesus and several saints that died and yet were very much alive.

            Note if you will, the following 5 great Scriptural truths that will easily repudiate the soul sleep heresy:

*TRUTH #1: The Bible refutes soul sleep in that God is God of the living, not the dead! *Since God is life and the source of all life (Gen. 1:20; Deut. 30:20; John 1:4; 14:6), apart from Him is considered death (Eph. 2:1,5). Toward the end of His physical ministry on earth, Jesus was confronted by the godless liberal Sadducees who had led the Jews to believe there was no future resurrection. Once while trying to trap Him, they disingenuously inquired about the status of marriage in the after life. Of course Jesus spotted the ploy and called them ignorant which not only sewed their mouths shut but no doubt helped seal His fate:

“Have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living” (Mat 22:31-32).

What does this mean? If you believe in soul sleep, it means nothing. If you believe Jesus, you understand that it means these patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) along with all the saints of history, have been alive– not asleep– all these years (see Luke 16:22-31; Rev. 4:4, etc).

* TRUTH #2: Jesus refuted soul sleep by promising we would never die!* In a public pledge Jesus promised: “He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life” (John 5:24). Later Jesus said, “If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death” (John 8:51). Again, Christ’s integrity is at stake here. Every person who heard the Lord utter this promise died, and their bodies were buried. In light of that, if Jesus was referring to the death of the body as soul sleepers are forced to maintain– and in view of the fact that all those disciples bodies eventually died (fell asleep)- wouldn’t that make a liar out of our Savior?

*TRUTH #3: Paul refuted soul sleep when he taught that absent from the body is to be present with the Lord! *As we have stated previously, Old Testament writers operated under the disadvantage of limited light and therefore viewed the resurrection as a one-time future event.

Paul, a converted rabbi, was given additional revelation, adding light to what had been known regarding the intermediate state of the body and soul at death. Remember, he had experienced a trip to paradise so he knew first hand how real and magnificent it was (1 Cor. 12:2). He taught more about death and resurrection than any other Bible writer. Although he agreed with the Old Testament writers that death brought about the appearance of a body falling asleep (1 Cor. 15:6; 1 Thess. 4:14), he never implied that a sleeping body brought about a sleeping soul or spirit- ever. Please consider God’s Word here:

“Whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:6, 8). Did you see that reinforcement? So not to confuse his readers, he said it one way, then repeated it another way. In the body, away from the Lord. With the Lord, away from the body. How much clearer can it get? Then, three years later this captivating thought surfaced again in a letter to the Philippians. “For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you” (Phil. 1:23-24). Once again, to depart from earth (death) is to be with Christ. No soul sleep, no awaiting a general resurrection, and no confusion for those who are not bound by the fallacious traditions of religious rogues who continue to hold an eerie spell over their duped disciples.

*TRUTH #4: Hebrews refutes soul sleep by teaching that the spirits of those who died exist right now in Heaven! “But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the Heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in Heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel” (Heb 12:22-24).*

TRUTH #5:

*
    Samuel the Prophet wasn’t sleeping (1 Sam. 28:7-19)
    Moses and Elijah weren’t sleeping (Matt. 17:1-4)
    The thief on the cross didn’t sleep (Luke 23:43)
    When Stephen was stoned, his body slept but the Lord received his spirit (Acts 7:59-60)*
* The Spirit of Jairus’ daughter was not sleeping (Luke 8:51-54)
    Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man were not sleeping (Luke 16:20-31)
    The Old Testament saints weren’t sleeping (Matt. 27:52-53)*
*    The souls in Sheol/Hades Christ preached to weren’t sleeping (Eph. 4:8-10)
    The Great Cloud of witnesses aren’t sleeping (Heb. 11-12)
    The Heavenly Saints are not sleeping at the Rapture (1 Cor. 15:51-53; 1 Thess. 4:16)
    The elders in John’s Revelation aren’t sleeping (Rev. 4:4, 10)
    The martyred tribulation souls aren’t sleeping (Rev. 6:9-11; 20:11)*
*    The great multitude redeemed from the great tribulation aren’t sleeping (Rev 7:9, 14)
    The returning army of Heavenly saints are not sleeping at the Revelation of Christ (Rev. 19:11-14)*
*Jesus Christ, the Firstfruits of the resurrection isn’t sleeping*


Source HERE


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## auparavant (Jul 26, 2012)

When I hear people talk of "spirits," I often thin they are referring to evil spirits and not the holy souls.


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## aribell (Jul 26, 2012)

Hi again ladies, so sorry I ducked out of the convo like that (I'm in the process of moving).  But I really appreciate the stories shared and the perspectives given.

About my friend, Shimmie was totally right in sensing a spirit of unforgiveness.  The life led by his father and the circumstances surrounding his death were tragic and emotionally draining.  I've told him before that he will have to forgive his father at some point, and he acknowledged that, but it doesn't seem like he's quite there yet.  His family members seem very stuck, just as they were kind of stuck when he was alive.  

Something else I should have mentioned was that he said he felt his "relationship" with his father was better now than when he was alive.  Much has been said about where the soul and spirit go after death, but I'm thinking we all agree that we don't have a "relationship" with the deceased?  

He is not at all Catholic, but he asked why his father can't be one of the "great cloud of witnesses" watching events unfold here and cheering him on; the concept he was getting at was very "communion of the saints"-ish.  _However_, it seemed like the issue was really more one of not wanting to let him go.  I have lost loved ones, and while I do not know what it is like to lose a parent, my family treats death as a normal part of life and you simply let the deceased go, you don't hold on emotionally.  Also, idk, the story about Carlton Pearson was also striking because he seems like one who changed his theology to fit his emotional state.

So, I don't know what to tell him just yet.  I think that even if it were possible to have visitations that the Lord permitted, that we are still told in Scripture not to seek communication with the dead.


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## MSee (Jul 26, 2012)

@nicola.kirwan I don't have much to add except I pray for your wisdom in dealing with the matter and for your friends healing from the hurt of his loss and deliverance from deception. Unfortunately the longer his "relationship" with the assumed spirit of his dead father continues, the more dangerous it gets.

This verse may have already been written but the bolded part is on my mind:

_Isaiah 8:19 When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, *should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? *_


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Jul 26, 2012)

nicola.kirwan

thanks for the above post it helped to fill in the blanks ...

when my mother died even thou we were close, there were some unresolved things that that I felt she needed to be aware of that I had never told her, even though her prognosis was grim her death somehow still took me by surprise, being the oldest child all of the repsonsibility of the funeral, house, my 17 year old sister fell on me, and there was family drama to match, I was overwhelmed and frustrated.

Months later at church, the service turned into a delivernace ceremony my Pastor came up to me and whispered in my ear; "you need to forgive your mother" well I searched my heart and realized that there was some unforgivensess there that I needed to get rid of.

With your friend; he feels by talking to his father helps him in some way ...what he needs to to his tell Father everything and let it go, the relationship seems better to him because his dad is not around to explain his side or to say I'm sorry, the best that he can to is tell God and ask for a heart of forgiveness toward his dad ...

You can continue to pray and support him and gently point out that he is dealing with unforgiveness, but he has to come to that place for himself.

 I pray that its quickly as he is opening doorways for other things to take place ...


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## loulou7 (Jul 26, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> Btw, @loulou7 I thought that this was a commendable refutation of the heresy of "soul sleep"
> 
> Origin of the Soul Sleep Heresy
> 
> ...


 


Hi Galadriel, Thank you for sharing your information with me. As I wrote previously, my great grandmother was Catholic, so I’m familiar with some of the things that you’ve have stated in your postings. We are definitely not on the same page concerning our beliefs about certain subjects of The Bible. And I’m going to leave it at that!


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## Galadriel (Jul 26, 2012)

Thanks for adding more details nicola.kirwan

As mentioned earlier, most Christians throughout history have held to the Communion of Saints and the "cloud of witnesses" as mentioned in Hebrews. 

However with all the information shared so far, I'm leaning toward a *possible* case of *obsession*, but I can't make an accurate call because I obviously don't know the entire situation or all of the pertinent facts. Ask your friend to seek spiritual counseling; continue being supportive and pray with and for him.



nicola.kirwan said:


> Hi again ladies, so sorry I ducked out of the convo like that (I'm in the process of moving).  But I really appreciate the stories shared and the perspectives given.
> 
> About my friend, @Shimmie was totally right in sensing a spirit of unforgiveness.  The life led by his father and the circumstances surrounding his death were tragic and emotionally draining.  I've told him before that he will have to forgive his father at some point, and he acknowledged that, but it doesn't seem like he's quite there yet.  His family members seem very stuck, just as they were kind of stuck when he was alive.
> 
> ...


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## sweetvi (Jul 27, 2012)

This is a story about a man who visited he'll. He talks about his experience but one interesting one is when he referred to different forms of demons, he talks about familiar spirits and ghosts


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## sweetvi (Jul 27, 2012)

Oops. Here is the link lol
http://www.testimoniesofheavenandhell.com/2010/12/placebo-heaven-testimony-by-howard-pittman/


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## Galadriel (Jul 27, 2012)

sweetvi said:


> Oops. Here is the link lol
> http://www.testimoniesofheavenandhell.com/2010/12/placebo-heaven-testimony-by-howard-pittman/



Based on Mr. Pittman's own words, I am inclined to state that his visions/experience was not from God. 

Here's why:

1) He claims that Satan is enthroned in the second heaven, beneath God (who's in the third Heaven)

2) He claims that our souls are all identical, and that we wouldn't be able to tell each other apart except that we have bodies that look different. He claims our bodies aren't part of our true selves. This is wrong. A human being is a creature of body + soul. We will even be resurrected one day and have our bodies and souls reunited forever.

3) Furthermore, he says 





> Although humans are spirit beings, we are confined to physical bodies.


 We are not spirits trapped in physical bodies. This is a heresy known as Gnosticism.

4) Though he claims a near death experience where he felt he was going to die and was resolved to go to God and ask that his life be spared, the first thing he heard was the voice of the devil, and MOST of the journey he experienced was visions of demons and how powerful and frightful they were.

There are a few more red flags, but that's what stuck out so far...


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## sweetvi (Jul 28, 2012)

Thanks for reading... I posted before I finished reading. When I read further and noted he got to speak to God and see him... Hmmmm. I could not help you wonder? He is the first person I know that who got to be present in front of God and speak to him and live..? But who knows


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## Galadriel (Jul 28, 2012)

sweetvi said:


> Thanks for reading... I posted before I finished reading. When I read further and noted he got to speak to God and see him... Hmmmm. I could not help you wonder? He is the first person I know that who got to be present in front of God and speak to him and live..? But who knows



sweetvi I saw the YouTube video (Placebo) the other day and also thought it was interesting at first, but when certain red flags were popping up, I was like .


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## MuseofTroy (Jul 29, 2012)

This is a tough subject because society has diluted the Word of God so that people only go for the "feel" good messages. No one wants to think about the possibility that mom, dad, or another closed loved one is in hell after they pass away because they never accepted Christ in their life. I had to correct my mom (who I adore) a few months ago because she once told me if she ever passed away she would watch out for me and guide me. I said...Um no mom, if some spirit comes me that looks like you I'm going to assume it's a demon and rebuke it. Visitations from spirits usually means your hedge is low and/or you have a cursed object in your home. Take a look around your home to see if you have any objects that might attract demons. So many people have those hindu and Budda statues in their house not realizing what that they are getting cursed. Certain objects attract demons into your dwelling. For some reason Black people love to buy those african statues as home decor when in reality those are cursed objects. You don't know who made them or what was prayed into those spirits.  Death is hard but you still have to live and move forward. That's why its important to show appreciate for the people you love while they are here and treat everyone with respect and dignity.


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## CosmopolitanChic (Aug 17, 2012)

Shimmie said:


> Hi Sweetvi  :Rose:
> 
> Carlton's story is another example of how grieving for loved ones is an open door for satan to come in and wreck havoc in one's life, even to the point of tearing them away from the truth.
> 
> ...



Shimmie, is that lesbian Pastor the same one from the Bay Area Love Center Church where Walter Hawkins was Pastor? I hear she also wanted Walter Hawkins to make his church strictly a gay church, but even though allegedly, he was gay himself he declined and she became angry. I understand on his deathbed he told his son that it homosexuality was wrong it it not the will of GOD.


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