# i have a question for catholics



## PretteePlease (Feb 24, 2005)

whats up with the saints and praying to the saings and praying to Mary? I dont understand this at all why isnt this considered idolatry? Do you believe that the dead can intercede for you? I have always wondered this because my mom wanted to be a nun and my sisters went to catholic school so i heard the "Hail Mary"a time or two.


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## PretteePlease (Feb 24, 2005)

nobody knows? i have been wondering this since i was a child. well hopefully someone can help me out


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## sunshine91496 (Feb 24, 2005)

Hi there, hopefully my 12 years of Catholic schooling will  help here.  I'm pretty open about my faith, so please feel free to ask away.

First we believe in the Trinity and that God, Christ, and the Holy Spririt are one in the same.  

 We hold Mary in the highest esteem as the "Mother of God"   Basically since she was chose out of all the young women to bear the Son of God, we  feel that she can intercede on our behalf. God did not have to choose his Son to be born of woman but he did, and he chose Mary, the fact that God made this decsion demonstrates the strength and faith that Mary had in God. 

Also, Catholics believe that the Christ chose to come into the world through a mother in order that that His mother might accept as His brothers all the children of the sinful race of man. He set an example as to how she should be honored and loved. He prepared her for this motherhood of all by asking her to suffer every conceivable form of pain, thus teaching her sympathy for the sorrows of her children. Had she been His Mother alone, He would have spared her from pain, because He had the power to do so and because He loved her with an infinite love. Amd when Christ was dying He reminded her that she had been destined from the beginning to be a Mother to all. Catholics therefore believe that Mary will be as eager to help them, in troubles of soul and body, as every natural mother is eager to promote the welfare of her child.  When we seek her advice and pray to her we do so with the intention as any child would with their own earthly mother. 

As for Saints in general we see no issue here concerning idols.   It's not so much that we are praying to Saints, but rather asking a Saint to pray with us 

"I appeal to you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf" (Romans 15:30).

I guess the best way to describe it is like how some Christians have a prayer circle.  For example, when I pray to St. Michael   (the archangel who is cast Lucifer into hell at God's instruction), I am asking St. Michael to pray with me in my request that God protect me from harm. 

 From a historical perspective I enjoy reading/praying to Saints. I see the Saints as people who the faced of every adversity, every threat of harm, and every torture still proclaimed their faith in Christ, and it is my hope that I would have such strength and courage to maintain that faith even wehn things are difficult for me.

   As a side note, I guess its kind of weird for me when Christians ask me these uestions because I grew up in New York  where I think they have the second highest Catholic Population in the country. When I moved south to the Maryland DC area, I was surprised by a lot of the comments I heard about my faith.  Anyway I realize that anwer is kind of choppy (hey  I never said I was a scholar) but I hope this helps answer your question.


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## EssentialGrowth (Feb 25, 2005)

sunshine91496 said:
			
		

> Hi there, hopefully my 12 years of Catholic schooling will  help here.  I'm pretty open about my faith, so please feel free to ask away.
> 
> First we believe in the Trinity and that God, Christ, and the Holy Spririt are one in the same.
> 
> ...




Who is the God of Catholics? Jesus Christ, or his Father? Also, the Bible says that the true God never had a beginning or an end, but Jesus Christ did. How do you explain this?

As far as Michael the archangel in the book of Revelations, this is actually Jesus Christ, and not a saint. God explicitly stated in the Bible to not idolize, pray to, or have reverential fear for anyone except Him alone. By worshipping saints, Catholics are going against the teachings of the Bible. There are too many contradictions in your response to really understand where you're coming from :scratchch .


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## sunshine91496 (Feb 25, 2005)

What do you mean who is the God of Catholics?  Catholics believe in the one true God., King of Heaven and Earth.  For us Jesus is God, one in the same, no distincition,  everyone else (angels, saints, dicisples, etc) are messengers of God, i.e.,their words, actions, and lives reflected the way God wants us to live our lives and as Catholics we ask that they pray for us- it has nothing to do with idoltry.


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## EssentialGrowth (Feb 25, 2005)

sunshine91496 said:
			
		

> What do you mean who is the God of Catholics?  Catholics believe in the one true God., King of Heaven and Earth.  For us Jesus is God, one in the same, no distincition,  everyone else (angels, saints, dicisples, etc) are messengers of God, i.e.,their words, actions, and lives reflected the way God wants us to live our lives and as Catholics we ask that they pray for us- it has nothing to do with idoltry.



'god', 'lord' etc. are all titles and doesn't really refer to a person or being. I don't understand how Jesus can be the true God when the Bible specifically stated that "no one has seen God and lived" (Exodus 33:20). Jesus Christ was seen, and actually walked the earth so the true God cannot be him. 

As far as saints, it is not scriptural to pray to saints for them to act as intercessors with God. Jesus Christ said: “You should pray like this: ‘Our Father in heaven, .... ’” so prayers are to be addressed to the Father. 

Jesus also said: “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one can come to the Father except through me. If you ask for anything in my name, I will do it.” (Matt. 6:9; John 14:6,14, JB) Thus Jesus ruled out the idea that anyone else could fill the role of intercessor. The apostle Paul added regarding Christ: “He not only died for us—he rose from the dead, and there at God’s right hand he stands and pleads for us.” “He is living for ever to intercede for all who come to God through him” (Rom. 8:34; Heb. 7:25, JB). If we truly want our prayers to be heard by God, it would be wise to approach God in the way that his Word directs--through Jesus Christ. Anything otherwise is idolatry since saints are not needed to approach God in prayer. 

I would not prolong this any further......


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## pebbles (Feb 25, 2005)

EssentialGrowth said:
			
		

> 'god', 'lord' etc. are all titles and doesn't really refer to a person or being. I don't understand how Jesus can be the true God when the Bible specifically stated that "no one has seen God and lived" (Exodus 33:20). Jesus Christ was seen, and actually walked the earth so the true God cannot be him.



This begs the question, are you Christian, and if so, do you believe in the Holy Trinity? In other words, do you believe in GOD in three persons? If not, that may be the dilemma.


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## Cowgirl (Feb 25, 2005)

EssentialGrowth said:
			
		

> 'god', 'lord' etc. are all titles and doesn't really refer to a person or being. I don't understand how Jesus can be the true God when the Bible specifically stated that "no one has seen God and lived" (Exodus 33:20). Jesus Christ was seen, and actually walked the earth so the true God cannot be him.



*In Exodus, Moses saw God:*
But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!" Then the LORD said, "Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock; and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by. "Then I will take My hand away *and you shall see My back,* but My face shall not be seen." (Exodus 33:20-23).  

*Isaiah also saw God:*
In the year that King Uzziah died, *I saw the Lord *sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. (Isaiah 6:1)  So I said: "Woe is me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; *For my eyes have seen the King,* The LORD of hosts." (Isaiah 6:5)

*From my understanding,* (which can be corrected) this interpretation is not literal or physical it is spiritual.  (….. for no man can see Me and live), I take this to mean that if we ever really get a glimpse of God and see Him for who He really is, the “old self” will die and the “new self” will be born.  The old creature will die and the new creature will be born again.


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## AnnDriena_ (Feb 25, 2005)

Thanks for the help sunshine but I'm afraid I'm a bit more confused.

The Hail Mary is a prayer _*to*_ Mary. The bible says we are not to pray to anyone but God.

As far as mary being respected because she is the mother of Christ that's great but, and I'm not trying to be funny, I respect my boss in the highest but I'm not going to pray for him. Mary did endur awful things but in that day and age I don't think she was the only one who saw her son die so I don't think she suffered any more greatly than other mothers who experienced the same thing. So the praying to her still stumps me.

And as for asking the saints to pray with you. The saints you are referring to are dead Christians and the dead have no affair with the living. So I'm still having trouble wrapping my heart around that one. I get it with my head and you explained it well but my bible leanings don't agree. And since we as Christians and messengers of God are already saints I don't like the way the catholic church _bestows_ sainthood upon people. There is talk about sainthood for mother theresa (or am I late and it's already been bestowed by the church, correct me on that please) but who are an organization of priests to decide who gets sainthood when God has already granted it to us while we are living? Can you explain how the Catholic Church justifies this?

Another rub for me in praying to the saints is that it's like they are in heaven and some will think that since they are in heaven they have more power and they will look to them to intercede with God on their behalf. And one of the things Jesus had to come down and die for is so that we wouldn't have to go to anyone to intercede on our behalf because the temple priests and money changers who were between man and God was taking advantage of the people and so God was in biblical terms "tired of that mess" and decided he would send a spotless, blameless, perfect lamb that the money changers couldn't say was defective and therefore make the people buy their sacrificial lamb from them at a higher price. So now that Christ has died and their is no one between God and us why pray to saints. 

The above paragraphs also tie into why I'd like to know why Catholics have to go to priests to confess their sins?  Why is it so important that they be by the side of dying patients in hospital rooms? If your saved then your saved. No priest giving you last rights while you are in a coma is going to make you anymore saved and if you are not saved him praying over you while you are in that coma isn't going to do you good so why is that so important?


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## Tai (Feb 25, 2005)

For those of you with various questions about Catholic rituals, you could head to www.catholic.com.  There are various articles addressing all of your various questions and clear up the misconceptions that you have.  There's also a forum on the site, open to non-Catholics, where you can interact with Catholics and pose questions, if you'd like.  

To the person who asked who is the God of Catholics, *Catholics are Christians*.  We, like other Christians, believe in God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.  I do not understand why people don't realize that Catholics are Christians, just like Baptists, Protestants, Lutherans, etc.


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## Sweet C (Feb 25, 2005)

Tai said:
			
		

> For those of you with various questions about Catholic rituals, you could head to www.catholic.com. There are various articles addressing all of your various questions and clear up the misconceptions that you have. There's also a forum on the site, open to non-Catholics, where you can interact with Catholics and pose questions, if you'd like.
> 
> To the person who asked who is the God of Catholics, *Catholics are Christians*. We, like other Christians, believe in God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. I do not understand why people don't realize that Catholics are Christians, just like Baptists, Protestants, Lutherans, etc.


 
I think the majority of Protestants have the misconceptions about Catholics b/c of some of the rituals u stated above.  Also, on this website, it has Protestants as being a "great heresy".  See below excerpt from the website:  

From http://www.catholic.com/library/Great_Heresies.asp

_Protestant groups display a wide variety of different doctrines. However, virtually all claim to believe in the teachings of sola scriptura ("by Scripture alone"—the idea that we must use only the Bible when forming our theology) and sola fide ("by faith alone"— the idea that we are justified by faith only). 

The great diversity of Protestant doctrines stems from the doctrine of private judgment, which denies the infallible authority of the Church and claims that each individual is to interpret Scripture for himself. This idea is rejected in 2 Peter 1:20, where we are told the first rule of Bible interpretation: "First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation." A significant feature of this heresy is the attempt to pit the Church "against" the Bible, denying that the magisterium has any infallible authority to teach and interpret Scripture. 

The doctrine of private judgment has resulted in an enormous number of different denominations. According to The Christian Sourcebook, there are approximately 20-30,000 denominations, with 270 new ones being formed each year. Virtually all of these are Protestant._ 

The thing here is that this website (not saying all Catholics believe this) that Protestants are a heresy b/c we believe in scripture and faith alone, when I thought that is what the Bible teaches (2 Cor 11:4).  Then in the same breath give "infallible authority" to a magisterium, when this practice is not shown anywhere outside of Christ.  What it seems to me is that they are saying the proof of this is through denominational differences.  Are all Catholic churches the same then?  Are they not different denominations and councils WITHIN the Catholic church?


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## Tai (Feb 25, 2005)

I didn't state any rituals in my post.  I pointed out the website and the fact that Catholics are Christians.


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## Vintagecoilylocks (Feb 25, 2005)

As an Orthodox Christian I, I believe in the gospel which says we shall have everlasting life,  If you believe on Jesus Christ, therefore the saints that have gone before us are not dead and are in the kingdom.  Did not Peter see Jesus on the mount talking with Moses and Elias? Mt. 17:4 

Mary interceded on earth to Christ at the wedding which literally promted his first miracle.  The married couple did not even realize the help they recieved from Jesus on the request of Mary.  Our Lord Jesus showed that the kingdom of heaven (Where the saints are) will not be filled with "dead" people but good and faithful servants being given rule over many things who have entered into thre joy of the Lord.  MT.:14,21,23.   

We do not confess to the priest.  One confesses to Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.  The bible states to confess your sins one to another also. Ja 5:16  Some Orthodox churches still do open public confessions.  I have not known of to many protesant churches that practice that.  My priest openly ask forgivness from the congregation but he confesses to God.  The priest acts as a representative of the faithful for the churches that do not do open confession.  So he is your witness of your confession to God.  

Orthodox ask a saint to pray for them.   Whom better then ones who have fought the good fight.  Their prayers would be purer than mine and untainted by the earthly desires and burdens.  They more than any on earth pray with out ceasing.

        Our Lord and Savior taught nothing of solo scipture for nothing he taught was written at the time except his referral to the old testament.  The church began years before the word was put to pen.  How than did the church grow and thrive.  Oral teachings and traditions of what the Lord spoke and was taught by the apostles. 2Th 2:15

     There are numerous times when angels interacted with the earthly man.  

  I have found that much of what is the attack against Catholics is due to the filtering of the scriptures through the protestant view rather than what is really in the scriptures. Many protestant can not agree on scripture so how can solo scripture be valid.  who determines what is the correct interpretation.  If it is up to each individual than basically each individual is desiding for themselves.  That is not what was stated in the bible in the churches.  

     There is only One Holy Catholic and Apostolic church.  No denominations in catholism.  A church is based on location just as the churches in the bible were under a different Bishop as the bible states.  The Roman church became the western church because of the Islamic invasion into the world and for years cut off the lands of the Eastern Church under its Islamic rule.  They even forbade contact between the churches for many years.  Eastern Catholics were eastern believers forced to cut off there ties with fellow eastern faithful by the Communist.  They aligned with the western church keeping their eastern traditions.  The Russian Church had been completely cut off from the other churches under communism til just the last few years and the fall of communism.  But we are all Catholic which means universal.  There are outer differences and most regions keep local traditions but there is not the severe differance of doctrinal beliefs of the teachings of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to divide the church.  Protestants are divided.          

 Yes it states that the protestants are in heresy.  Which means under false teachings.  

     If you study the Reformation in detail you will find from the very onset of the reformation protestants were a divided people.  Unable to agree on the sciptures or the teachings of the church. God is not the creater of confusion.  Only man.


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## Sweet C (Feb 25, 2005)

Tai said:
			
		

> I didn't state any rituals in my post. I pointed out the website and the fact that Catholics are Christians.


 
Sorry, misunderstanding.  I didn't mean u, I meant some that were stated earlier by other posters.  Sorry for the confusion.  I do agree that Catholics are Christians, b/c they believe that Jesus Christ died for their sins.


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## Sweet C (Feb 26, 2005)

Ok, I must say that I did enjoy reading the post  , but there are some questions that need to be answered.



			
				Vintagecoilylocks said:
			
		

> As an Orthodox Christian I, I believe in the gospel which says we shall have everlasting life, If you believe on Jesus Christ, therefore the saints that have gone before us are not dead and are in the kingdom. Did not Peter see Jesus on the mount talking with Moses and Elias? Mt. 17:4.


 
Ok.



			
				Vintagecoilylocks said:
			
		

> Mary interceded on earth to Christ at the wedding which literally promoted his first miracle. The married couple did not even realize the help they recieved from Jesus on the request of Mary. Our Lord Jesus showed that the kingdom of heaven (Where the saints are) will not be filled with "dead" people but good and faithful servants being given rule over many things who have entered into thre joy of the Lord. MT.:14,21,23.


 
This is good, but this is where we start to disagree.  The saints are not only in heaven, but are on earth as well.  So how can the church appoint sainthood to a select group of people?  There are countless scriptures in the Word referring to this (i.e. Acts 9:32; Rom 16:2,15, 2 Cor 1:1, Phillipians 4:21-22 to name a few).



			
				Vintagecoilylocks said:
			
		

> We do not confess to the priest. One confesses to Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. The bible states to confess your sins one to another also. Ja 5:16 Some Orthodox churches still do open public confessions. *I have not known of to many protesant churches that practice that.* My priest openly ask forgivness from the congregation but he confesses to God. The priest acts as a representative of the faithful for the churches that do not do open confession. *So he is your witness of your confession to God.*


 
The scripture does say confess your faults one to another, but it didn't say that it had to be done in front of the WHOLE church. The second part had me a little confused.  I thought if u confess your sins to Christ and repent and turn away from them then its done.  I don't understand the witness part, but hey if that what u do, I got no qualms with it



			
				Vintagecoilylocks said:
			
		

> Orthodox ask a saint to pray for them. Whom better then ones who have fought the good fight. *Their prayers would be purer than mine and untainted by the earthly desires and burdens. They more than any on earth pray with out ceasing*.


 
I'm not understanding this.  James 5:16 says that The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much, so why would someone else's prayer be more "purer" than yours?  We are all to pray without ceasing (1 Thessalonians 5:17) and for one another (James 5:16).  




			
				Vintagecoilylocks said:
			
		

> Our Lord and Savior taught nothing of solo scipture for nothing he taught was written at the time except his referral to the old testament. The church began years before the word was put to pen. How than did the church grow and thrive. Oral teachings and traditions of what the Lord spoke and was taught by the apostles. 2Th 2:15 .


 
Exactly, everything he did was based off the OT prophecies and he shut down *manly *traditions.  The early church grew off the basis of the OT, the words of Christ and the teachings of the apostles, you are correct here.



			
				Vintagecoilylocks said:
			
		

> There are numerous times when angels interacted with the earthly man.
> 
> I have found that much of what is the attack against Catholics is due to the filtering of the scriptures through the protestant view rather than what is really in the scriptures. Many protestant can not agree on scripture so how can solo scripture be valid. who determines what is the correct interpretation. If it is up to each individual than basically each individual is desiding for themselves. That is not what was stated in the bible in the churches.
> 
> ...


 
I will sum all this up real quick.  Your main idea is that scripture + traditions should be the basis of the church (correct if wrong).  Now tradition is all good if it is based by scripture.  My question is what happens when these traditions directly contradict the scripture?  Do u go with traditions for unity sake or with the scripture?  There are no formal denominations in Catholism, but there are very distinct differences b/t some Catholic churches that if really examined could be probably taken as a denomination.  Most protestants disagree on little stuff (like how baptism should be performed), but all agree that u should look to scripture first, not traditions.  

And another thing, why aren't priests allowed to marry?  Peter was.

Anyways, I digress, so be blessed.


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## Chichi (Feb 26, 2005)

I appreciate the questions. Dialogue is a very good thing! I'll take a stab at answering a few of your questions...

The Hail Mary is a prayer _*to*_ Mary. The bible says we are not to pray to anyone but God.

We are not praying to Mary but prasing her (hail=praise) as in praise you Mary, you are full of grace. Btw, do you know that most of the Hail Mary appears in the bible?

The above paragraphs also tie into why I'd like to know why Catholics have to go to priests to confess their sins? Why is it so important that they be by the side of dying patients in hospital rooms? If your saved then your saved. No priest giving you last rights while you are in a coma is going to make you anymore saved and if you are not saved him praying over you while you are in that coma isn't going to do you good so why is that so important?

We confess our sins to priests because Jesus gave the first priests, His apostles the power to forgive sins; we are following in that tradition... Jesus said to them (and I am paraphrasing), "whoever sins you forgive is forgiven them; whoever sins is nor forgiven is held bound." 

We don't have priests in the hospital to save us. Last Rites is the last of our seven scaraments as a Catholic, similar to the blessing that we receive as a child at baptism only it occurs at the near end of life.

Chichi 



			
				AnnDriena_ said:
			
		

> Thanks for the help sunshine but I'm afraid I'm a bit more confused.
> 
> The Hail Mary is a prayer _*to*_ Mary. The bible says we are not to pray to anyone but God.
> 
> ...


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## Chichi (Feb 26, 2005)

We are not worshipping the saints at all. They are basically our role models  . We ask for their intercession for different matters such as health, success, etc. We are in no way saying, I worship you dear saint... but rather please plead to God on my behalf and ask him to help me pass this test. Much in the same way that one would speak to a favorite relative that has since passed. I have never seen anyone bowing down and worshipping a saint. Their statutes abound and their books are plentiful as reminders not so that we could worship them but to remind us that the saints were human (just like us) and that everyone of us should aspire to be saints! (sorry for going on but I have a great affection for the saints!) 

The Blessed Virgin Mary is one of our most powerful intercessors. Jesus, Himself, says and shows this. For His very first miracle, the changing of the water into wine at Cana, Jesus' Mother interceded on behalf of the wedding hosts. When they needed more wine they went to His Mother and not Him and then the beautiful miracle happened. Jesus was sitting right there and the wedding hosts knew Him well yet they went to His Mother first...

Jesus is showing us by this story that we can also go through His Mother to reach Him. (We can also go to Him directly, of course, but in His love, He is providing us with another option.) The Jesus is very subtle. He never comes right out and says do this or that. The fact that he started his public ministry with this miracle is very telling. Blessed Virgin Mary has interceded on my behalf many a time. 

Chichi 



			
				msportugal said:
			
		

> whats up with the saints and praying to the saings and praying to Mary? I dont understand this at all why isnt this considered idolatry? Do you believe that the dead can intercede for you? I have always wondered this because my mom wanted to be a nun and my sisters went to catholic school so i heard the "Hail Mary"a time or two.


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## melodee (Feb 26, 2005)

As long as we beleive that Jesus is God's son and that he truly died to save us of our sins, and we accept him as the savior of our sins, then we are Christian Believers, no matter what label we wear.

There are non-believers who attend church in every denomination.  There are Catholics who follow every ritual, but haven't accepted Jesus (strange but true), and there are Protestant "Christians" who go to church every sunday, and are a member of every committee, but haven't accepted Christ.  They don't know how to get to heaven.


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## pebbles (Feb 26, 2005)

Vintagecoilylocks said:
			
		

> As an Orthodox Christian I, I believe in the gospel which says we shall have everlasting life,  If you believe on Jesus Christ, therefore the saints that have gone before us are not dead and are in the kingdom.  Did not Peter see Jesus on the mount talking with Moses and Elias? Mt. 17:4
> 
> 
> Yes it states that the protestants are in heresy.  Which means under false teachings.
> ...



I just wanted to point out that there is a significant reason why Moses and Elijah would have appeared with Jesus as opposed to any other men of God, such as David or Noah.

Moses represented the Law and Elijah the prophets. All of the Law and Prophets point to Christ and are fulfilled in Christ (Luke 24:27, Heb 1:1). Not one word of the OT Scriptures will be unfulfilled. The promised Kingdom would be established (Luke 1:32-32, 68-67). Peter understood the significance of seeing Moses and Elijah and said: "We were eyewitnesses of His majesty. . . . And so we have the prophetic word made more sure" (see 2 Peter 1:12)

All that to say that this is probably not the best argument to present for believing that the dead saints are able to intercede on our behalf and move around and pray for us. 

Ecclesiastes 9 4:6 says:
*For the living know that they will die,

but the dead know nothing;

    they have no further reward,

    and even the memory of them is forgotten.

    Their love, their hate

    and their jealousy have long since vanished;

never again will they have a part

    in anything that happens under the sun.* 

This is what the bible says. 

Also, while we may disagree on how service should be conducted and what day to celebrate the Sabbath and a few other things, I would like to see more concrete evidence of what the Catholic Church says has us confused and makes us a "heresy." I was Catholic for 21 years of my life. I attended Catholic School from kindergarden all the way through to my senior year in high school. So the Catholic belief system and doctrine is not new to me. Trust me when I tell you, that the Protestant faith has more things in common that unite us than divide us. And I think that, whether Catholic or Protestant, we are united in the fact that both belief systems *know and believe*, that JESUS CHRIST is LORD and SAVIOR, and that is the most important thing. The rest, God will deal with.


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## Vintagecoilylocks (Feb 26, 2005)

Sweet C,

   Will continue to try and clarify 

  When the church "recognizes" a saint they are not appointing them to being a saint over others.  If you wanted to have a role model set before your child for your values or the like you would most likey make sure the person truelly embodied the truths and behavior you consider to be in line with what you believe.  Its like giving the faithful a "good housekeeping seal" on some one.  Many have called them selves christians but do not hold true to the faith and decieve, teach false doctrine and started heresies.    Paul warned of that happening even in the early church.  At times these people led others away with their false teachings.  Christ said many will call me Lord but he will say depart from me for I never knew you.  Also many a saints have died unknown to others for the Gory ogf God.  The naming a fellow saint that has fought the good fight and won isinspirational.  We do not worship them nor mary.  The hail mary is the same greeting the angel gave her at the announciation.  Can we not say the same the angels say.  Pual said to honor the saints.  Is it not true that the saints of the old testesmant were pointed out to the faithfu.  Did not Christ name these rightgeous men and why they were considered so.  Did not Christ honour and set John the Babtist high in the eyes of man? Mt.11:11 Others were named in the scriptures such as in Lu 1:5-6.  The Bible is not void of naming those who have walk in the way of God in their life.

     The confession to the whole church is to the Body of Christ.  Picking and choosing who you would confess to sounds seemly don't you think.  But do to size of congregations and time the churches approved the confessions to be said to the priest locally for the Bishops could not be at all congregations at all times.  But he represents the church in that capacity.  This is a tradition from the early church whicc supports the scriture that confession is by mouth.  Not thoughts or only in your heart.  It will not change your salvation but in the Catholic church you shall not commune until confession. John stated all could not be put in one book Jn21:25 Tradition must align with the teachings.  It is of the teachings.  Then the written scripture aligned with those traditions and teachings.  I doubt the apostles would have written one thing while doing another.  The church gives us the fullness of Christ through the teachings and traditions of the first apostles who were intimate with Christ. 1Jn1:4 

     If a particular congregation or bishopry has started to deviate as we saw churches in the bible do it is the unchanging doctrine of the church and Christ that will either bring them back or bring attention to the rest of the faithful and try to bring them back.  I am not aware of a Eastern church which knowingly is deviating from the known beliefs of the whole church and has not been approach by the rest of the body of christ.  I think there are churches that call themselves catholic that are not in communion with the western church and have gone off on their own direction.  The church can no longer recognize them only plead they return to correct teachings as Paul taught.  As in the early century of the church so called christians sprang up with their versions of Christ and the scriptures.  The new testament tells us of these and cautions us to beware of the false doctrine.
The essentials do not change.  Salvation, santification, confession and forgiveness, the nature of God and Our Lord, grace, communion, babtism.

Protestant differ on more than the methods of babtism but the understanding of it also, salvation doctrines sharply conflict such as calvinism, armeniaism, definate atonment, pelggiusm and a host of others.  These greatly affect ones understanding of Christ, and who he is.  Many are not in communion with one another and many have not respectue of difference and allow any one to commune.  Why so many dinominations.   This is not in keeping with scripture.  So what do they agree on if they have gone so far out of their way to be separate.  He liberalism often allows for going far beyond obeying the Lords commanments.  Paul admonished division in the church.


The practise of Priest in the western church not marrying was done long ago for the sake of them and the flock.  They had problems with good order with it.  It was decided to go with pauls teachings on married and unmarried and it has worked for them.  The faithful support it and no man is forced into the preist hood.  The eastern Church did not encounter the same difficulties in history and have retained a married priesthood.  However he must be the husband of one wife prior to entering the priesthood.  So must the deacons.
Bishops are widowers or unmarried.  The church is responsible for the care of all.  As Paul says the duty of a husband and father are great.  That is why he must have been married and show an orderly life and family before he can go to the preisthood or remain unmarried.  Many of our priest are "tent maker" preist.  They hold full time jobs.  The duty of a priest to his flock and family and job is a delicate balance and one not every one could handle.  1cor7:32-35. The faithful support these things for the care of the men aswell as the congregation.

I have been justified  and with my heart I believe unto rightenous but I must humbly refrain from declaring myself so righteous at to not need or desire the prayers of those who are santified.  I also could not declare that with purity and constant deligence I pray without ceasing.  For I am a sinner who has fallen short of the Gory of God.  Christ promise tells me the santified are in constant prayer and praise in their purity before the Lord.  If someone is that righeous here now then God bless them and they can for go any assistance from the saints on heaven and on earth.  That is not I.


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## Cowgirl (Feb 26, 2005)

Ladies, I am a Christian; however, not Catholic.  But I have had some of the same questions that have been posed in this thread.  Anyway, I just wanted to say THANKS, to all of you who have been so patient and diligent in your responses & dialoque without being offended by the questions.  I know we do not all agree on certain traditions and beliefs; but it's still good to have healthy informative dialogue.  That's why I love you guys.    Be Blessed and now I'll shut up.


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## Vintagecoilylocks (Feb 26, 2005)

Hi Pebbles,

  Forgive my ignorance but would you explain your use of that verse from Ecclesiates in relationship to salvation and everlasting life, the promise if I believe on Him, going to be with the Lord, being a good and faithful servant and being brought into the Glory of the Lord.  In what context is that verse reconciling the Good news.  
     None the less why they were chosen to be revealed they were talking to the living Jesus and seen by the living Peter.


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## pebbles (Feb 26, 2005)

Sure, I'll try to explain it as best as I can. There is the belief that when someone dies, they go straight to heaven, get wings, can see their loved ones here on earth, can guide us, etc. As comforting as the thought is, that is not supported by scripture.

 The bible says in 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 
"_Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed– in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[g] “Where, O death, is your victory?
      Where, O death, is your sting?”[h] The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."_

The last trumpet sound will be at the return of Jesus Christ. The dead shall rise, and we shall all stand before the judgement throne of Christ.

John 5: 28-30 says:
_"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out–those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me." _

Nowhere in scripture do we ever see the living praying or asking the dead for help. And mighty men of God have passed on. Surely if this were acceptable, we'd see people in the bible praying to saint Abraham or Isaac, or Moses, etc. And the bible says that the dead shall rise to be judged, so where are they now? I don't think that they are in heaven only to have to leave again to be judged. That doesn't make much sense.

Some believe that when you die, you're going where you are meant to go, be it heaven or hell, but scripture doesn't seem to support that theory. It would appear that the departed souls are in the hands of the father, but waiting for the trumpet to sound to rise again. Which would clearly reconcile with Ecclesiates 9.

Scripture is clear that when Jesus returns, He's coming to judge the living *and* the dead. I hope I was able to explain myself a little better.


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## PretteePlease (Feb 26, 2005)

i must admit i am still confused i read thru and i went to catholic.com and i have even more questions.  especially about heresy i really need to get into a good bible study class


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## Sweet C (Feb 27, 2005)

Vintagecoilylocks said:
			
		

> The practise of Priest in the western church not marrying was done long ago for the sake of them and the flock. They had problems with good order with it. It was decided to go with pauls teachings on married and unmarried and it has worked for them. The faithful support it and no man is forced into the preist hood. The eastern Church did not encounter the same difficulties in history and have retained a married priesthood. However he must be the husband of one wife prior to entering the priesthood. So must the deacons.
> Bishops are widowers or unmarried. The church is responsible for the care of all. As Paul says the duty of a husband and father are great. That is why he must have been married and show an orderly life and family before he can go to the preisthood or remain unmarried. Many of our priest are "tent maker" preist. They hold full time jobs. The duty of a priest to his flock and family and job is a delicate balance and one not every one could handle. 1cor7:32-35. The faithful support these things for the care of the men aswell as the congregation.


 
The practice of not marrying was instituted by man. Yes, Paul taught that its better to be single to serve the Lord, but not required. Priscilla and Aquila headed up a church together (1 Cor 16:19) and in the bible when it gives the breakdown of bishop and deacons, their families and household and how they are managed are critical criteria for such an office. No man is forced to be a priest, but if a man was called by God to marry and he was already a priest, would he be forced to leave his post? The term priest is more or less utilized when talking about the Jewish temple and at least some of them married in order to continue a lineage of priests in the Levite tribe. 



			
				Vintagecoilylocks said:
			
		

> The confession to the whole church is to the Body of Christ. Picking and choosing who you would confess to sounds seemly don't you think. But do to size of congregations and time the churches approved the confessions to be said to the priest locally for the Bishops could not be at all congregations at all times. *But he represents the church in that capacity. This is a tradition from the early church whicc supports the scriture that confession is by mouth.* Not thoughts or only in your heart. *It will not change your salvation but in the Catholic church you shall not commune until confession.* John stated all could not be put in one book Jn21:25 *Tradition must align with the teachings.* It is of the teachings. Then the written scripture aligned with those traditions and teachings. I doubt the apostles would have written one thing while doing another. The church gives us the fullness of Christ through the teachings and traditions of the first apostles who were intimate with Christ. 1Jn1:4 .


 
Now, did the scripture say to one another or to everybody (everyone who goes to church is not necessarily a member of the Body of Christ). Its not a case of picking or choosing. If u want to confess to the priest, hey I got no qualms with it but where in the scripture do you find people confessing to Peter, Paul, etc and people being excluding from fellowship from not physically confessing to the pastor? Aren't we all the church, not just the pastor?



			
				Vintagecoilylocks said:
			
		

> When the church "recognizes" a saint they are not appointing them to being a saint over others. If you wanted to have a role model set before your child for your values or the like you would most likey make sure the person truelly embodied the truths and behavior you consider to be in line with what you believe. Its like giving the faithful a "good housekeeping seal" on some one. Many have called them selves christians but do not hold true to the faith and decieve, teach false doctrine and started heresies. Paul warned of that happening even in the early church. At times these people led others away with their false teachings. Christ said many will call me Lord but he will say depart from me for I never knew you. Also many a saints have died unknown to others for the Gory ogf God. The naming a fellow saint that has fought the good fight and won isinspirational. We do not worship them nor mary. The hail mary is the same greeting the angel gave her at the announciation. Can we not say the same the angels say. Pual said to honor the saints. Is it not true that the saints of the old testesmant were pointed out to the faithfu. Did not Christ name these rightgeous men and why they were considered so. Did not Christ honour and set John the Babtist high in the eyes of man? Mt.11:11 Others were named in the scriptures such as in Lu 1:5-6. The Bible is not void of naming those who have walk in the way of God in their life. .


 
Give honor to where honor is due (Rom 13:7). I get that, but giving honor and praying to them (or asking someone who is no longer alive to pray for you) are two different things. When Paul said to honor the saints, he was stating all those who are members of the body of Christ, that have fought and are fighting the good fight of faith to honor them. We are also to honor those who have rule over us such as government officials, as well as all men (1 Pet 2:17). That's right Jesus did honor John the Baptist by saying there is none greater born of woman, but did he pray to him or ask him to pray for him? Since John the Baptist is the greatest born of women, why is Elizabeth not elevated like Mary is in the Catholic Church? 



			
				Vintagecoilylocks said:
			
		

> If a particular congregation or bishopry has started to deviate as we saw churches in the bible do it is the unchanging doctrine of the church and Christ that will either bring them back or bring attention to the rest of the faithful and try to bring them back. I am not aware of a Eastern church which knowingly is deviating from the known beliefs of the whole church and has not been approach by the rest of the body of christ. I think there are churches that call themselves catholic that are not in communion with the western church and have gone off on their own direction. The church can no longer recognize them only plead they return to correct teachings as Paul taught. As in the early century of the church so called christians sprang up with their versions of Christ and the scriptures. The new testament tells us of these and cautions us to beware of the false doctrine.
> The essentials do not change. Salvation, santification, confession and forgiveness, the nature of God and Our Lord, grace, communion, babtism.
> 
> Protestant differ on more than the methods of babtism but the understanding of it also, salvation doctrines sharply conflict such as calvinism, armeniaism, definate atonment, pelggiusm and a host of others. These greatly affect ones understanding of Christ, and who he is. Many are not in communion with one another and many have not respectue of difference and allow any one to commune. Why so many dinominations. This is not in keeping with scripture. So what do they agree on if they have gone so far out of their way to be separate. He liberalism often allows for going far beyond obeying the Lords commanments. Paul admonished division in the church.


 
I don't understand this. You say that members of Protestant groups differ, but in the same breath, you have a split b/t the Catholic church into Eastern/Western churches (i.e. some churches allow marriage and others do not).....hmm...sounds like a denomination to me. Many denominations in the Protestant church come together, and have respect for one another. So if there are divisions within both branches, how are we then a heresy?



			
				Vintagecoilylocks said:
			
		

> I have been justified and with my heart I believe unto rightenous but I must humbly refrain from declaring myself so righteous at to not need or desire the prayers of those who are santified. I also could not declare that with purity and constant deligence I pray without ceasing. For I am a sinner who has fallen short of the Gory of God. Christ promise tells me the santified are in constant prayer and praise in their purity before the Lord. If someone is that righeous here now then God bless them and they can for go any assistance from the saints on heaven and on earth. That is not I.


 
Check out pebbles post earlier as in regarding prayer. We all need prayer from the people of God, but the power of prayer is in when we touch and agree (mt 18:19). How can you touch agree with someone who is passed away? Where in scripture do u find any of the apostles praying to anyone but Jesus and asking the saints of God (those alive) to pray for him? 

The problem with man is that he is that he sins. We all do.  So why would I put "infallible" authority into a tradition of man that can't be scripturally supported? Even Paul rebuked Peter when he shunned the Gentiles, when he met with the Jews (Galatians 2). When looking at the Reformation during the time of Martin Luther, one of the reasons he has issues with the Catholic church was b/c the pope at that time was not walking according to the statues laid out by scripture and no one said anything, b/c tradition gave him infallible authority. Scripture points out that in 1 Cor 5:11, that if a brother in the faith is in error, has been warned, and doesn't repent, then he is to be excluded from fellowship.  Is this not what the apostles would have done?

Just out of curiousity, are there prophets in the Catholic church?


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## pebbles (Feb 27, 2005)

Great post, Sweet C.  And in answer to your question:


			
				Sweet C said:
			
		

> Just out of curiousity, are there prophets in the Catholic church?


The answer is no. Apart from the priests, cardinals, etc, there are no prophets in the Catholic Church.


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## Edie (Mar 1, 2005)

Why are you guys arguing about catholic practices or beliefs.  We shall answer to one God.  I myself questions some of the beliefs of catholics, but I am not going to bash them over the head for it.  They believe in praying to saints (who are long dead) and also to the mother Mary or asking them to pray for them.  I pray to God in Jesus name through the Holy Spirit.  When I feel I need extra help, I will ask the Holy Spirit to pray for me.  If catholics want to pray to Mary or long dead saints for help, let them.  That is between them and God.  But as for me, I always go the Head Honcho for help.  No minions for me.


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## Edie (Mar 1, 2005)

melodee said:
			
		

> As long as we beleive that Jesus is God's son and that he truly died to save us of our sins, and we accept him as the savior of our sins, then we are Christian Believers, no matter what label we wear.
> 
> There are non-believers who attend church in every denomination.  There are Catholics who follow every ritual, but haven't accepted Jesus (strange but true), and there are Protestant "Christians" who go to church every sunday, and are a member of every committee, but haven't accepted Christ.  They don't know how to get to heaven.



Amen to that sister.  No ritual will save you but faith in Christ Jesus.  Does this mean that we should live our lives as WE choose.  No!  Faith without works is dead!   True faith will always produce works.  Works are based on acts of love.  And I know for a fact that I see catholics, baptists, protestants, and every other denomination not practicing the act of love as they should.  Our work will either approve us or condemn us.


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## Edie (Mar 1, 2005)

May I ask the catholics here a question.  I have a catholic church down the road from me and while driving by their a few months ago, their was a sign up that said "Please come back".  My husband said that a lot of catholics are pulling away from the catholic church because of the scandal with the priests molesting children.  There were over a hundred thousand molestation cases brought forth.  Okay.  My question is this.  If the catholic church covered up the molestation of these children by their priests for decades, how can you trust them not to have covered up other things.  After all, these are children we are talking about.  If you can't trust them to protect your children (your most precious possession) what can you trust them with?   I am not trying to start an arguement, but as a mother and a christian, I would like to know.


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## MeccaMedinah (Mar 1, 2005)

I also have some questions. What is the Pope's significance? It seems that he is worshipped; I heard on the news that if he dies the Catholic church will be in disarray. Also why are rosary beads so important? They also appear to be an icon.


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## Sweet C (Mar 1, 2005)

Edie said:
			
		

> Why are you guys arguing about catholic practices or beliefs. We shall answer to one God. I myself questions some of the beliefs of catholics, but I am not going to bash them over the head for it. They believe in praying to saints (who are long dead) and also to the mother Mary or asking them to pray for them. I pray to God in Jesus name through the Holy Spirit. When I feel I need extra help, I will ask the Holy Spirit to pray for me. If catholics want to pray to Mary or long dead saints for help, let them. That is between them and God. But as for me, I always go the Head Honcho for help. No minions for me.


 
No one is arguing about catholic pratices or beliefs. We are simply having a discussion about it, so that all those in the Body of Christ can have a better understanding of one another.  I had people tell me in college that when I told them I grew up in a Holiness church, they told me "Oh, your with them folks that walk over snakes and scorpions".  I'm like  , .  It wasn't that until we had a deeper discussion that they realized that it was something from a particular church in the area they were from, not all Holiness or Penecostal churches.  Though are viewpoints differ, we ALL believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and has died for our sins.


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## Tai (Mar 1, 2005)

I see what exactly what Edie is saying in her post.  

I haven't seen a thread over here asking about the practices of Jehovah's witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, or any other Christian religion.  Maybe it's just me, but it seems like it's the Catholic practices that people want to know about and I suppose I don't understand why.  Maybe I'd feel better if I saw someone asking about the churches where members break out in tongues, or where the women aren't allowed to cut their hair and must wear long skirts.  I've seen the why include saints in prayer, why can't priests/nuns marry, why no meat on Fridays, etc. questions that have all been answered.  And some of the posts *do* seem argumentative.  If you don't believe in the practices of the the Catholic Church, that's fine.  But don't try to imply that our practices and beliefs are wrong or go against the word of God.


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## Sweet C (Mar 1, 2005)

Tai said:
			
		

> I see what exactly what Edie is saying in her post.
> 
> I haven't seen a thread over here asking about the practices of Jehovah's witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, or any other Christian religion. Maybe it's just me, but it seems like it's the Catholic practices that people want to know about and I suppose I don't understand why. Maybe I'd feel better if I saw someone asking about the churches where members break out in tongues, or where the women aren't allowed to cut their hair and must wear long skirts. I've seen the why include saints in prayer, why can't priests/nuns marry, why no meat on Fridays, etc. questions that have all been answered. And some of the posts *do* seem argumentative. If you don't believe in the practices of the the Catholic Church, that's fine. But don't try to imply that our practices and beliefs are wrong or go against the word of God.


 
I see where you are coming from Tai, and in all respect, this is a forum.  If u have questions about SDA, Jehovah Witness, etc. feel free to make a thread.  Me, personally, I am about to move to an area (real country) where there is a high percentage of Catholics and Presbyterians, so I am one who wants to gain info about various backgrounds of these denominations in particular so I can more effectively minister to those who aren't saved.  You pointed me to the website about Catholism, so I just asked for further clarification about what I saw on the site (and the site said that b/c I was a Protestant I was under false teachings).  I have to give it up to Vintagecoily locks.  She backed up what she believes with scripture and I have the upmost respect for those who do study and show themselves approved even if I disagree.


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## Tai (Mar 1, 2005)

I'm very much aware that this is a forum, SweetC.  I think that Vintage did a very good job of providing further clarification that perhaps wasn't found to your satisfaction at the site that I referenced.  One of the reasons that I mentioned that site is that there is a forum there available to everyone, where one can ask questions and get various points of view from Catholics and other Christians.  If you're trying to imply that you don't have respect for me because I didn't post up Scripture like Vintage, that's also fine.  I thought the site would be helpful but I guess it wasn't.  I had good intentions.  I still hope that you find the information that you seek so that you may effectively minister to those who not saved.


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## AnnDriena_ (Mar 2, 2005)

There's that word "bashing" again. The questions posed here are of a biblical nature and out of curiosity from our questions about biblical and catholic traditions. 
Many people here have questioned other members personal practices with regards to the bible and how they perceive their actions to be in a much more confrontational and not at all curious way and that would seem to bashing.

But their are questions being posed here. And yes it does some that others do not believe in the same practices and rituals but that is not bashing.


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## DragonPearl (Mar 2, 2005)

Chichi said:
			
		

> We are not worshipping the saints at all. They are basically our role models  . We ask for their intercession for different matters such as health, success, etc. We are in no way saying, I worship you dear saint... but rather please plead to God on my behalf and ask him to help me pass this test. Much in the same way that one would speak to a favorite relative that has since passed. I have never seen anyone bowing down and worshipping a saint. Their statutes abound and their books are plentiful as reminders not so that we could worship them but to remind us that the saints were human (just like us) and that everyone of us should aspire to be saints! (sorry for going on but I have a great affection for the saints!)
> 
> The Blessed Virgin Mary is one of our most powerful intercessors. Jesus, Himself, says and shows this. *For His very first miracle, the changing of the water into wine at Cana, Jesus' Mother interceded on behalf of the wedding hosts. When they needed more wine they went to His Mother and not Him and then the beautiful miracle happened. Jesus was sitting right there and the wedding hosts knew Him well yet they went to His Mother first...*
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for explaining this so eloquently. As someone who grew up Catholic, and who still prays daily to my favorite Catholic Saint (St. Therese aka Little Flower)  I and many in my family can testify to the power of these prayers and the miracles they have effected in our lives. Please correct me if I am wrong, but Christ himself *never* said that dead people have nothing to do with the living. 

And the last thing I want to add is, if one cannot or should not ask a Saint to pray to God for us, then why is it okay for people to come to the forum and ask someone else *to pray to God for them*? The same argument can be made that no one can pray for someone else, that one should always go directly to God. I don't see the difference.


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## PretteePlease (Mar 2, 2005)

Thanks For All Of The Answers
i hope this thread stays a civil discussion. 
cant be having threads locked on the christian board


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## Tai (Mar 2, 2005)

Jessy55 said:
			
		

> Thank you very much for explaining this so eloquently. As someone who grew up Catholic, and who still prays daily to my favorite Catholic Saint (St. Therese aka Little Flower) I and many in my family can testify to the power of these prayers and the miracles they have effected in our lives. Please correct me if I am wrong, but Christ himself *never* said that dead people have nothing to do with the living.
> 
> And the last thing I want to add is, if one cannot or should not ask a Saint to pray to God for us, then why is it okay for people to come to the forum and ask someone else *to pray to God for them*? The same argument can be made that no one can pray for someone else, that one should always go directly to God. I don't see the difference.


 
It seems that their point about why we shouldn't include Saints in our prayers is that they are dead and that the dead cannot pray for the living.  From what I've gathered from the posts, that is the difference.  Prayers can only come from the living.  This is one thing that I feel that we are just going to have to agree to disagree on, among other things.


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## Lorraine (Mar 2, 2005)

As a Catholic I think discussions like this are helpful from both perspectives. Non-catholics get to pose questions they would not normally ask someone in person and they also avoid living life assuming why we do what we do. We Catholics get an idea of how our practice is perceived by others and are able to help people understand (I was unaware there were so many Catholics on the board). I am happy to be Catholic and share my faith with my future husband who is non-Catholic. We have a very healthy dialogue and when I cannot answer a question for him or want to provide the best information possible so he understands (some things really are hard to articulate if you are non-Catholic) I refer to web sites as Tai recommended to some of you earlier. At the end of the day my fiance and I know we believe in one God, the giver the life, the ever lasting God. I believe the same can be said for each of us.


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## pebbles (Mar 3, 2005)

Jessy55 said:
			
		

> And the last thing I want to add is, if one cannot or should not ask a Saint to pray to God for us, then why is it okay for people to come to the forum and ask someone else *to pray to God for them*? The same argument can be made that no one can pray for someone else, that one should always go directly to God. I don't see the difference.



There is a difference. The saints that have died are *dead,* and the bible says that the dead have no knowledge of the things of earth once they're dead. Ecc 9: 4-6 says:

*For the living know that they will die,

but the dead know nothing;

they have no further reward,

and even the memory of them is forgotten.

Their love, their hate

and their jealousy have long since vanished;

never again will they have a part

in anything that happens under the sun.*

This is why there is no doctrine to support the practice of asking the dead saints to intercede for you to God. It's not biblical. The bible says it doesn't happen.

But the bible *does say* that we are to pray for one another. James 5: 13-18 says:
*Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.*

Hope that explains it a bit more clearly.


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## Tai (Mar 3, 2005)

Thanks Pebbles but this has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread. We all know the stance against including saints in prayer. As I said in an earlier post, this is one thing that Catholics and non Catholics will agree to disagree on.



			
				pebbles said:
			
		

> There is a difference. The saints that have died are *dead,* and the bible says that the dead have no knowledge of the things of earth once they're dead. Ecc 9: 4-6 says:
> 
> *For the living know that they will die,*
> 
> ...


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## MeccaMedinah (Mar 3, 2005)

MeccaMedinah said:
			
		

> *I also have some questions. What is the Pope's significance? It seems that he is worshipped; I heard on the news that if he dies the Catholic church will be in disarray. Also why are rosary beads so important? They also appear to be an icon.*


 
Ummm, ladies?


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## pebbles (Mar 3, 2005)

Tai said:
			
		

> Thanks Pebbles but this has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread. We all know the stance against including saints in prayer. As I said in an earlier post, this is one thing that Catholics and non Catholics will agree to disagree on.



Oh, I know, sweetie! I actually posted this again for Jessy55, in case she hadn't seen the previous post.


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## pebbles (Mar 3, 2005)

MeccaMedinah said:
			
		

> I also have some questions. What is the Pope's significance? It seems that he is worshipped; I heard on the news that if he dies the Catholic church will be in disarray. Also why are rosary beads so important? They also appear to be an icon.



As a former Catholic, let me answer this as best as I can, and then if I'm wrong, someone else can correct me.

The Pope is not worshipped. As the head of the Catholic church, he is revered as their man of God and their leader. I'm not sure why the church would be in disarray since there are others in line who can succeed him. And the rosary beads are used while praying the rosary. Since the Catholics believe in praying to Mary, this falls in line with their doctrine, and is just a way for them to pray to Mary.


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## DragonPearl (Mar 3, 2005)

pebbles said:
			
		

> Oh, I know, sweetie! I actually posted this again for Jessy55, in case she hadn't seen the previous post.


 
Actually, I saw the previous post. Most of the stances against including Saints in prayers is based on Old Testament creeds. The Old Testament says a great many things that *no one observes or practices anymore.* People have found all kinds of justifications for no longer following dietary and clothing codes, even though *the Bible says* that they should be followed. Even on the subject of divorce, most Christians are not following the Bible. But I digress...

That's why I said that Jesus himself, unless I am mistaken, *never* said that the dead cannot affect the living and do not communicate with the living. As Vintage pointed out, did not Peter see Jesus on the mount talking with Moses and Elias? 


Mt. *17:3* And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Mt. *17:4* Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.


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## Edie (Mar 3, 2005)

Jessy55 said:
			
		

> Actually, I saw the previous post. Most of the stances against including Saints in prayers is based on Old Testament creeds. The Old Testament says a great many things that *no one observes or practices anymore.* People have found all kinds of justifications for no longer following dietary and clothing codes, even though *the Bible says* that they should be followed. Even on the subject of divorce, most Christians are not following the Bible. But I digress...
> 
> That's why I said that Jesus himself, unless I am mistaken, *never* said that the dead cannot affect the living and do not communicate with the living. As Vintage pointed out, did not Peter see Jesus on the mount talking with Moses and Elias?
> 
> ...





Remember that when Jesus arose from the grave after His crucifixion, He visited the graves and revived all the dead saints.  It even states that a lot of the old saints were seen walking upon the earth at that time.

That is why Peter was able to see Jesus talking to both Moses and Elias.  They had been resurrected.  All the saints that have died since Jesus crucifixion are still sleeping (dead) and will not arise until Christ's second coming.  Then all shall be awaken at the sound of a triumphant and the dead in Christ shall arise.  So if you are talking about any saint's that died after Christ died, well they are still in their graves and cannot help you in answer to your prayers.


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## DragonPearl (Mar 3, 2005)

Edie said:
			
		

> Remember that when Jesus arose from the grave after His crucifixion, He visited the graves and revived all the dead saints. It even states that a lot of the old saints were seen walking upon the earth at that time.
> 
> That is why Peter was able to see Jesus talking to both Moses and Elias. They had been resurrected. All the saints that have died since Jesus crucifixion are still sleeping (dead) and will not arise until Christ's second coming. Then all shall be awaken at the sound of a triumphant and the dead in Christ shall arise. So if you are talking about any saint's that died after Christ died, well *they are still in their graves and cannot help you in answer to your prayers*.


 
Interesting interpretation. 

The Bible is a fascinating book. All kinds of people read the same thing and interpret it differently. That's why we have thousands of denominations under the name of Christians. *You do not know for a fact that I have not been helped in answer to my prayers because you are not in my life.*  I think it is spiritual arrogance to tell someone that their spiritual experience is not valid, based on your own interpretation, which is only 1 out of thousand interpretations. 

Peace.


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## Edie (Mar 3, 2005)

Jessy55 said:
			
		

> Interesting interpretation.
> 
> The Bible is a fascinating book. All kinds of people read the same thing and interpret it differently. That's why we have thousands of denominations under the name of Christians. *You do not know for a fact that I have not been helped in answer to my prayers because you are not in my life.*  I think it is spiritual arrogance to tell someone that their spiritual experience is not valid, based on your own interpretation, which is only 1 out of thousand interpretations.
> 
> Peace.




I am not basing what I am telling you on interpretation.  If you can show me anywhere in the bible where someone prayed to a dead saint and had their prayer answered, please tell me where I can find this information.

If the information is not in bible, I cannot make assumptions and neither should anyone else.


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## Tai (Mar 3, 2005)

Ladies, I suggest that we agree to disagree before this goes any further.  For those who disagree about including saints in prayer, the answer is very simple.  Don't do it.  Those who do, will continue to do so.  Religion is more than just what's in the Bible.  Some of us are fine with that; other are not.  Praise in the way that suits you best but respect the differences that you don't understand or agree with because that is what you'd like in return.


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## DragonPearl (Mar 3, 2005)

Edie said:
			
		

> I am not basing what I am telling you on interpretation. If you can show me anywhere in the bible where someone prayed to a dead saint and had their prayer answered, please tell me where I can find this information.
> 
> If the information is not in bible, I cannot make assumptions and neither should anyone else.


 
I am not sure I understand your point. Is the Bible supposed to have all the possible examples of prayers being answered and all the ways that one can pray? And if it's not there, then too bad, it is not valid?  That thinking implies that if a particular prayer case/situation *is indeed in* the Bible, then we all should be able to use.  Well, in the Bible, Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead.  Does that mean that if we pray to Jesus now, he will raise from the dead someone who died yesterday?


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## pebbles (Mar 3, 2005)

I've seen threads on the other forums degenerate into ugliness, but I'll be truly disappointed if on a Christianity forum, we can't have a discussion without it turning ugly. Whether we agree or not, let's do it in a way that brings glory to the Father. :Rose:


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## DragonPearl (Mar 3, 2005)

Tai said:
			
		

> Ladies, I suggest that we agree to disagree before this goes any further. For those who disagree about including saints in prayer, the answer is very simple. Don't do it. Those who do, will continue to do so. Religion is more than just what's in the Bible. Some of us are fine with that; other are not. Praise in the way that suits you best but respect the differences that you don't understand or agree with because that is what you'd like in return.


 
Yes, I think I am going to take your advice and just bow out of this thread.


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## pebbles (Mar 3, 2005)

Jessy55 said:
			
		

> Is the Bible supposed to have all the possible examples of prayers being answered and all the ways that one can pray? And if it's not there, then too bad, it is not valid?


For many of us, the answer to this question is yes. The bible tells us how we are to pray, and we don't add, subtract or deviate. 


			
				Jessy55 said:
			
		

> That thinking implies that if a particular prayer case/situation *is indeed in* the Bible, then we all should be able to use.  Well, in the Bible, Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead.  Does that mean that if we pray to Jesus now, he will raise from the dead someone who died yesterday?


I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. Can you clarify a bit?


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## Tai (Mar 3, 2005)

Pebbles, who told us how to pray before there was a Bible?  Christianity and prayer were in existance long before the Bible was written.  I am, too, Jessy, bowing out of this thread. I focus more about the similarities that I share with other Christians, instead of our differences.  I praise God in the way that He called me and I have no shame. All I can do is encourage others to do the same.


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## Edie (Mar 3, 2005)

Jessy55 said:
			
		

> I am not sure I understand your point. Is the Bible supposed to have all the possible examples of prayers being answered and all the ways that one can pray? And if it's not there, then too bad, it is not valid?  That thinking implies that if a particular prayer case/situation *is indeed in* the Bible, then we all should be able to use.  Well, in the Bible, Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead.  Does that mean that if we pray to Jesus now, he will raise from the dead someone who died yesterday?



I am not trying to imply anything.  I am using going by what the bible says. And Jesus does give us an example of how to pray.  It starts "Our Father who art in Heaven".  

So there is no room for interpretation.  Interpretations are merely ones own understanding and in the old testament it says for us not to trust our own understanding.  Jesus told us that if we have faith as a mustard seed, we can move mountains by simply telling them to move.  Well sister I can tell you now.  I haven't moved a mountain yet and I doubt anyone here has.  All I am trying to say is that when I stand before God and he asks me why I did this and this and that in my walk as a christian, I want to be able to point to His word and say "Because your word says so".  That's why if it is not written in the bible I will not and cannot base my faith or faith practices on it.  That is the Word and Authority of God.  What you or anyone else chooses to do is up to you.  Like a lot of ladies on this board don't understand why you pray to saints and told their viewpoints, I did the same.  All I asked is for you to tell me where in the bible a dead saint was prayed to and the prayer answered.  
Like one of the other members said, we can agree to disagree.


Peace!


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## pebbles (Mar 3, 2005)

Tai said:
			
		

> Pebbles, who told us how to pray before there was a Bible?  Christianity and prayer were in existance long before the Bible was written.  I am, too, Jessy, bowing out of this thread. I focus more about the similarities that I share with other Christians, instead of our differences.  I praise God in the way that He called me and I have no shame. All I can do is encourage others to do the same.



Before the bible was written, God was still directing His people. And to take it a step further, if there were another way before God made His way known, I personally would discount it. But we can all agree to disagree. There's nothing wrong with that. 

As an aside, I am truly sorry that this topic is upsetting people. The point of the thread is to point out differences and discuss why we practice or believe certain things. We're not here to bash each other. In the end, do we all believe Jesus is Lord and Savior? Yes! And that's the most important part. I'm really sad that the general tone of the entire forum is spilling into the Christianity forum as well.


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## Tai (Mar 3, 2005)

I know I said I was leaving this thread but I feel like I have to respond to Pebbles' last statement.

For me, it's not the topic that is distrubing, it's the *tone* in the responses.  When including saints in prayer was answered, it was met with people who wanted to argue staying that it shouldn't be done and that there was no point in praying to saints.  I felt that was unnecessary.  If you don't agree with it, simply don't do it.   None of the Catholics that responded stated that anyone else *should * do any of our practices.   It seems that whenever Catholics are brought up, there's this attitude that we don't worship the right way because we do somethings differently from non-Catholics.  I felt that the overlying tone was that Catholic beliefs and practices are wrong.  That is what annoyed me.

We are more alike than we are different and that seems to be a fact that many people seem to forget.  Do we not know that Christianity is much like a tree with many branches that all lead back to common roots?


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## Country gal (Mar 3, 2005)

I haven't read this whole thread but I do agree with Tai. I know in my personal life, I come across the Catholics are so different when reallyu I don't think we are. All churches have rituals, practices. 



			
				Tai said:
			
		

> I know I said I was leaving this thread but I feel like I have to respond to Pebbles' last statement.
> 
> For me, it's not the topic that is distrubing, it's the *tone* in the responses.  When including saints in prayer was answered, it was met with people who wanted to argue staying that it shouldn't be done and that there was no point in praying to saints.  I felt that was unnecessary.  If you don't agree with it, simply don't do it.   None of the Catholics that responded stated that anyone else *should * do any of our practices.   It seems that whenever Catholics are brought up, there's this attitude that we don't worship the right way because we do somethings differently from non-Catholics.  I felt that the overlying tone was that Catholic beliefs and practices are wrong.  That is what annoyed me.
> 
> We are more alike than we are different and that seems to be a fact that many people seem to forget.  Do we not know that Christianity is much like a tree with many branches that all lead back to common roots?


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## pebbles (Mar 4, 2005)

Tai said:
			
		

> I know I said I was leaving this thread but I feel like I have to respond to Pebbles' last statement.
> 
> *For me, it's not the topic that is distrubing, it's the tone in the responses.  When including saints in prayer was answered, it was met with people who wanted to argue staying that it shouldn't be done and that there was no point in praying to saints.  I felt that was unnecessary.  If you don't agree with it, simply don't do it.*   None of the Catholics that responded stated that anyone else *should * do any of our practices.   It seems that whenever Catholics are brought up, there's this attitude that we don't worship the right way because we do somethings differently from non-Catholics.  I felt that the overlying tone was that Catholic beliefs and practices are wrong.  That is what annoyed me.
> 
> We are more alike than we are different and that seems to be a fact that many people seem to forget.  Do we not know that Christianity is much like a tree with many branches that all lead back to common roots?



Tai, I am sorry that you found this all upsetting, but I was simply backing up my point with scripture, as were others.  I didn't suggest that anyone leave what they were doing, that's a personal decision between them and God. I was simply saying that the practice is not supported by scripture. That wasn't intended to offend anyone, I was contributing to the conversation. I was Catholic for 21 years of my life, and there were somethings that made no sense to me and I looked into them to find the sources of the practice, and I continue to do the same in my current church. There's nothing wrong with looking into why something is done or not. I have stated repeatedly that we do have in common the fact that we all believe Jesus Christ to be Lord and Savior. This is an interesting, thought provoking conversation, and it's not intended to offend. I can understand, though, if you choose not to continue. That's ok.


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## Vintagecoilylocks (Mar 6, 2005)

I had a long week in court protecting my rights and my home, that was draining but thanking the Lord its over.  

     Will continue with some of the questions.  The Eastern and Western terms used are not a denomination.  They were due to geographical references.  Constantine moved his seat for the Empire to what is now Istambul thus establishing the eastern empire.  The east used Greek and the assyrian languages and the west most church was Rome.  But as in the bible they were all the same.  After the Islamic invasion literally cut off the two geographic areas of the world the reference stuck.  The Eastern church was trapped under the rule of Islam.  The Church to the west also meaning what remained in North africa was in the west.  Eventually Christianity was crushed all across the west african Continent with only small remaining pockets with churchs surviving in the middle east to this day.  This only left Rome and the faithful in Europe free.  This was also when the roman empire was on its final days and left no one power in place.  Sadly this isolation between the faithful did cause rise to some differences.  One main point in particular riffed the church in 1045.  Of course some contact was made but no more councils were allowed or any major meeting to strengthen each.  The West as well as the East know this riff.  But as much as they were separated the essential doctrine remained intact.  They are not a denomination of each other.  But if you say that a few organizational differences constitute a denomination and the East and west church calls it a riff in an understanding then that means the protestants have 20,000 -30,000 riffs and differences why the protestants felt the need to have started new and different denominations.  

      How ever the protestants are torn on doctrine.  It was not and is not a few organizational differences.  With so many how can they be so slightly different.  Calvism is different than arminianism.  You can see stark differences on this forum of the beliefs in the essentials of faith.  Two denominations compared to 30,000 that is different.  

  The catholics say in heresy but no Catholic East or West in authority will ever teach that protestants are not Christians.  That is not what they say.  For the Body of Christ is not determined by the building.  When I refer to the Church, as in confession, no you would not turn to a non christian and consider them part of the church.  

    The West church needed their system of non-married priest yet eastern churches under the west still have married priest because the same problems did not arise.  Just as the Eastern Church was not effected by the reformation. The same difficulties had not arose in those areas of the world.  Luther had issues with the things brought into the western church that did not follow God,,tradition of the apostles or scripture.  How ever Luther never changed essential of the spiritual doctrine as many of the new protestants at that time did.  Luther also never meant to start new different churches either.  I believe that came after his death or not of his doing.  The church in England broke from Rome because the king ordered it due to his desire to divorce his wife and marry his mistress thus the New Church of England.  Not a very spiritual reason at all. 

    The priest is a representation of the rest of the faithful and a sign to all that whom ever comes forward for communion has confessed to God.  When we sin we sin against Jesus.  The Church is the body of Christ so we have sinned against the whole church so we are asking forgiveness of Jesus and the Church as one. 

     Yes the Catholics do believe that there is a spiritual life after death and not one of unconsciousness or unawareness.  In the verse that was sited by Peebles ICor 15:51-55 one must realize this is Paul speaking and therefore would not contridict himself.  One also should read the verse in context with the entirety of the verses before it starting with verse 35.  They are asking about the physical body and the resurrection and Paul deals with it.through to verse 55.  In Romans Pauls is talking of the spiritual man Romans 5:21.  This is the gosepel.  The promise of everlasting life.  No mention of a spiritual separation from Christ at all.  Romans 6:4  We were buried with him in babtism into death that like Christ was raised up from th dead by the Glory of God even so we also should walk in the newness of life.  Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ we believe we shall also live with him. 6:9 Knowing that Christ was raised from the dead and dieth no more; death has no more dominion over him.  6:10 For that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.  6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead to sin but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 6:13 Neither yeild your members as instruments of un righteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God,  as that those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 6:20-21, 6:22,23 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.  There is the physical death of the body which is also termed falling asleep by Paul and Jesus. Mark 5:31  Jesus says that the girl is only sleeping and then raised her up.   We are not ever told in the bible we must suffer a separation spiritually from 
Christ.  Paul shows his belief in a spiritual life after "falling asleep" in IICor5:5-8
....vs6 Therefore we are confident to know while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.vs7 For we walk by faith not by site. vs8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.  Again he states in Philippians1:21-24 For me to live is Christ and to die gain. But I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.  For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better; never the less to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. 
     Why would Paul be anxious to die and spend some indeterminent time in some unconscious state unaware of all things?  He believed that he would be with the Lord separated from his body not Jesus.  I Cor is speaking of the resurrection of the Body.  Paul also states this  I Thes 4:15-18  He explains that the ones who will still be alive shall not prevent those who are sleep ... for the dead in Christ shall rise first.  Then the change of thoe who are alive as referred to in I Cor 15:51-55.  This is the resurrection of the body.  Paul can not be contridicting himself saying he would be with the Lord when he dies and also saying he would have to wait to be with the Lord til the resurrection.   Christ showed us that the spirit does not wait.  He spoke of The rich man talking to Abraham after he died. Luke 16:19-31   The Lord refers to how" Abraham rejoiced in his day to see his day and he saw it" 
Abraham had already died how would the Lord know he rejoiced and how could he rejoice if he was not aware of what was happening on earth. Jn8:56 The Lord speaks of how He appoints unto you a kingdom That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on throwns and judge the twelve tribes of Israel. Luke 22:29-30.  It would seem some saints will be there ahead of at least the tribes of Israel to be appointed to judge.
     The Lord promised the thief on the cross that "today " he would be with him in paradise.  Not three days hence or sometime later but that day.  luke23:43  The Lord committed his spirit to God before he died.  Luke 23:46  His body was placed in the tomb. Luke23:53  His body rose on the third day as with many saints bodies Mathew27:52-53.
     Revelations gives many vs. showing the saints in heaven singing and giving praises in the Triumphant Church in heaven.  Rev4:4,10-11, Rev 5:8,9,11,14.  The martyered saints spoke to the Lord Rev 6:9-11.  
  We are told of the the heavenly Jerusalem Hebrews 12:22-24.
Though Christ is prophesied in the old testament the good news came with Christ.  Ecclesiates can not possibly the end all and the explaination of the gospel of Jesus Christ.  There is even doubt of the actual author of the Book most likely Solomon.  That one verse can not teach all that Christ came for.  


Reference Mary, It was the angel of the Lord who greeted her according to the Lords command.  "Hail that thou art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among woman."Luke 1:28  And it was Elizabeth which greeted Mary as Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit " Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb" Luke1:42.  God Choose Mary and prompted these greetings and salutations.  We only repeat these.  We also sing Mary's song of praise to God Luke1:45-55.


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## pebbles (Mar 7, 2005)

Vintagecoilylocks said:
			
		

> You can see stark differences on this forum of the beliefs in the essentials of faith.


I've been a little busy myself and am a bit out of touch with this thread at the moment, so if I've missed the point of what you were saying, please forgive me.  

What are these stark differences that you refer to among the protestants on this forum?

Secondly, I don't know of any Protestant churches that teach that Catholics are not Christians. In my church, we pray for our Catholic brothers and sisters who are going through a difficult time in their churches. Protestants who know nothing of Catholics and Catholicism may wonder what Catholics believe, but the heads of our churches never teach that Catholics aren't Christians. If they have begun to do so, that's news to me, and I'd like to know what church that is.

Lastly, there are several different theories of what happens to the dead when they pass. They are, Purgatory, Soul Sleep, Soul Annihilation, Resurrection, Reincarnation, "Hades" and Paradise, and the dead becoming Angels. Depending on what you believe, you'll fall into one of these. 

While Catholics interpret the text in 1 Chorintians 15 to mean that Paul is saying he will be risen in his glorified body and be with Jesus, most Protestants do not interpret the text in that way. Jesus, himself, has described death as being in a state of sleep.

John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, *"Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep."*
John 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
John 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
John 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly,*"Lazarus is dead."*

Mat 9:24 He said unto them,*"Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth."* And they laughed him to scorn.

Mark 5:39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them,*"Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.*

Luke 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said,* Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.*
Luke 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.

But no matter what you believe happens to a soul after death, the point is that there is no scripture to support the theory that the dead are able to intercede or pray for us in any way, shape, or form. I'll let you have the last word on this. I think I've said all I can say on the subject. I enjoyed this thread, personally. I found it fun and informative, and I hope others have as well.


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## Edie (Mar 7, 2005)

pebbles said:
			
		

> I've been a little busy myself and am a bit out of touch with this thread at the moment, so if I've missed the point of what you were saying, please forgive me.
> 
> What are these stark differences that you refer to among the protestants on this forum?
> 
> ...



Well after all of this discussion, I hope we can at least agree that if it is not supported by God's scripture (and not something someone's interpretation)  we need to just state  that to be our own opinion.  Because as far as I am concerned if God's Word doesn't say it, everything else is just that - an interpetation or an opinion.  What better thing to base your belief on than God's own Word.

Peace!


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