# Music Video~Creflo Dollar & Ziklag



## tffy2004 (Sep 2, 2007)

Before you go to the site think about your own personal walk with Jesus and your own relationship with God and what is important to you.

Title of the song: 
 *Money Comin*


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## plainj (Sep 2, 2007)

All I can say is wow. The comments for this video say it all.


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## tffy2004 (Sep 2, 2007)

It disturbed my husband and I to no end, I couldn't believe it. We were sitting here last night with our mouths wide open in disbelief.


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## Southernbella. (Sep 2, 2007)

I saw this awhile back and was greatly disturbed, but not surprised. I've heard Pastor Dollar speak before and I know exactly what he's about. "Money Cometh to Me, I'm a money magnet" was part of their confessions at church, and they said it every service. I guess he just decided to make it a song.


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## alexstin (Sep 3, 2007)

I have no words.erplexed


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## nik4jesus (Sep 3, 2007)

This is sooooooooo sad and disturbing.


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## hair_wit_favor (Sep 4, 2007)

For some reason I'm not able to open it...is it just saying money cometh to me, I'm a money magnet...? I'm going to try again when I get home--I enjoy Pastor Dollar so I need to take a look at this..are you guys against the money message?


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## hair_wit_favor (Sep 4, 2007)

Well, for some reason I wasnt able to view the video..but anyways I'm not offended by Creflo teaching on money. Pastor Dollar also teaches on many different subjects--I have many of his teachings from marriage, finances, spiritual authority, etc. I'm not really sure why people are offended by the money message--I mean, the bible even states that God gives us the power to get wealth, there's nothing wrong with having money. He's not teaching on seeking money first, but you need money to survive...You need money to pay your rent, bills, spread the gospel (t.v./radio broadcasts arent free unfortunately), etc...In Deutoronomy chapter 28 we see that we're suppose to be lenders, not borrowers..how we gone lend something if we aint got no money? If you go back to the old testament and you read closely you will see when the children of Israel left Egypt that had lots of spoils (gold,silver,etc)....God isnt broke, guys...the wealth of the wicked is laid up for the righteous. By no means am I sayin' focus on money, but it's okay to get money...we need it. John 10:10 states Jesus came so that we may have life in abundance, to the full, until it overflows. What we fail to realize is our God is a God of MORE THAN ENOUGH!...He's not for us to living from pay check to paycheck, he wants us to have more than enough. For what, you may ask? So that we can be a blessing to others....we can help out the poor and needy, when disasters (like Katrina) happen we have the resources to help the victims...The money that God blesses you with will have a purpose...to continue to build his kingdom. If you broke, who are you going to help...that's why it's very important for us to thoroughly study our bible and ask the Holy Spirit to show us the true meaning behind it...I hope I didnt offend anybody,that's not my intent, but we cant be so quick to judge....Let's be careful, because we dont want to put our mouth on a man of God..be it Creflo Dollar or Bishop Weeks. Be blessed ladies!!!


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## PretteePlease (Sep 4, 2007)

err i couldnt even finish it looks like any other rap video
maybe if i could understand the words comming out of 
their mouths


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## hair_wit_favor (Sep 4, 2007)

One thing that can be learned from Creflo's ministry is that the money isnt just going to just come, you have to sow seed...you sow your seed (most of the time its money), put the Word on with that seed, confess "Because I give, it's given unto me, good measure pressed down shaken together are MEN pouring into my bosom...., then expect a harvest cuz money will be comin'... Money cometh now (the words of Brother Leroy Thompson)


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## Southernbella. (Sep 4, 2007)

*hair_wit_favor*, do you believe Jesus Christ is God, and was God in human form on earth? If so, then your beliefs contradict with Dollar's, who believes that Christ was not God on earth. I have a big problem with his prosperity teachings, but saying that Jesus was not God is an outright lie. 

Also, look at this graphic:







I see it says to actively recruit members to join, and presumably give more money to the ministry, but where does it say anything about witnessing the gospel? Leading people to Christ?


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## Southernbella. (Sep 4, 2007)

hair_wit_favor said:


> Well, for some reason I wasnt able to view the video..but anyways I'm not offended by Creflo teaching on money. Pastor Dollar also teaches on many different subjects--I have many of his teachings from marriage, finances, spiritual authority, etc. I'm not really sure why people are offended by the money message--I mean, the bible even states that God gives us the power to get wealth, there's nothing wrong with having money. He's not teaching on seeking money first, but you need money to survive...You need money to pay your rent, bills, spread the gospel (t.v./radio broadcasts arent free unfortunately), etc...In Deutoronomy chapter 28 we see that we're suppose to be lenders, not borrowers..how we gone lend something if we aint got no money? If you go back to the old testament and you read closely you will see when the children of Israel left Egypt that had lots of spoils (gold,silver,etc)....God isnt broke, guys...the wealth of the wicked is laid up for the righteous. By no means am I sayin' focus on money, but it's okay to get money...we need it. John 10:10 states Jesus came so that we may have life in abundance, to the full, until it overflows. What we fail to realize is our God is a God of MORE THAN ENOUGH!...He's not for us to living from pay check to paycheck, he wants us to have more than enough. For what, you may ask? So that we can be a blessing to others....we can help out the poor and needy, when disasters (like Katrina) happen we have the resources to help the victims...The money that God blesses you with will have a purpose...to continue to build his kingdom. If you broke, who are you going to help...that's why it's very important for us to thoroughly study our bible and ask the Holy Spirit to show us the true meaning behind it...I hope I didnt offend anybody,that's not my intent, but we cant be so quick to judge....Let's be careful, because we dont want to put our mouth on a man of God..be it Creflo Dollar or Bishop Weeks. Be blessed ladies!!!


 
You don't need a dime to be a blessing to others or to do work in ministry.


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## hair_wit_favor (Sep 4, 2007)

lauren450 said:


> *hair_wit_favor*, do you believe Jesus Christ is God, and was God in human form on earth? If so, then your beliefs contradict with Dollar's, who believes that Christ was not God on earth. I have a big problem with his prosperity teachings, but saying that Jesus was not God is an outright lie.
> Yes ma'am I must certainly believe that Jesus was God in human form...can you provide me the information that shows that Pastor Dollar believes otherwise, 'cause I had never heard him say anything different. I would certainly like to hear that message in which it says that. If you run up on it again or know how I can get that information, please do share.
> Also, look at this graphic:
> 
> ...


 
What you're showing me is a partner letter..a partner isn't the same thing as being a member of his church or anything. The partnership is only if you want to support Creflo's ministries. I'm not a partner with his ministry, but I am partners with a couple of other ministries.


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## hair_wit_favor (Sep 4, 2007)

lauren450 said:


> You don't need a dime to be a blessing to others or to do work in ministry.


 
You don't need finances to be a blessing to other or to do ministry work all the time, but in some instances you do. For example when Hurricane Katrina hit, there were a lot of people who needed resources (food, clothing, shelter, etc)...how are you able to provide that without finances..there's no way you could provide those necessities without finances. I think you're misunderstanding me--I'm not trying to tell people to seek after money, I'm just sayin money isnt evil, it's the love of money. Different ministries do different type of work outside of the U.S.--it takes finances to go over to Kenya and build hospitals, it takes money to furnish it with hospital supplies, etc. I'm not tryin' to offend you just tryin' to show you another view--I didnt get a chance to watch the actual video--maybe it said something offensive, not sure. I'm just familiar with Pastor Dollars prosperity messages.


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## Southernbella. (Sep 4, 2007)

hair_wit_favor said:


> What you're showing me is a partner letter..a partner isn't the same thing as being a member of his church or anything. The partnership is only if you want to support Creflo's ministries. I'm not a partner with his ministry, but I am partners with a couple of other ministries.


 
hair_wit_favor, here's an audio clip of him saying Jesus was not God.

Here's a youtube clip of him saying that we are gods.


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## Southernbella. (Sep 4, 2007)

hair_wit_favor said:


> You don't need finances to be a blessing to other or to do ministry work all the time, but in some instances you do. For example when Hurricane Katrina hit, there were a lot of people who needed resources (food, clothing, shelter, etc)...how are you able to provide that without finances..there's no way you could provide those necessities without finances. I think you're misunderstanding me--I'm not trying to tell people to seek after money, I'm just sayin money isnt evil, it's the love of money. Different ministries do different type of work outside of the U.S.--it takes finances to go over to Kenya and build hospitals, it takes money to furnish it with hospital supplies, etc. I'm not tryin' to offend you just tryin' to show you another view--I didnt get a chance to watch the actual video--maybe it said something offensive, not sure. I'm just familiar with Pastor Dollars prosperity messages.


 
Oh, I'm not offended at all, and I hope I don't offend you as well! I was just answering your question about why we have a problem with his message. 

As for Katrina, I donated items from my own home. I cleared out my stockpiles and gave away clothes and a stroller and plenty of stuff. I didn't spend anything.

As for building hospitals...I know where World Changers is located. There are PLENTY of poor people right around there who could use that help. I have nothing against him wanting to do good overseas, but I can't help but wonder if, instead of asking the congregation to give till it hurts, he couldn't give away one of his $400,000 cars to help fund this.

But that's all my opinion. The facts of what he says about Jesus are more important.


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## hair_wit_favor (Sep 4, 2007)

Thank you so much for that reference...and I've heard him call us 'little gods', but its deeper than that. Sometimes to get the deeper meaning of the bible you have to refer to the original language in which it was written, which was Hebrew and Greek. But that's a different discussion...I really dont want to get into that I'm not really into debating the Word of God..God's word is able to stand on it's own without my help. When I hear things that I'm not sure about or that are unsettling to me, I go to the Teacher which is the Holy Ghost, and get my answer. 

Back to the subject at hand, may I ask you what is wrong with prosperity, if you are against preachers speaking on prospering financially?


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## Southernbella. (Sep 4, 2007)

hair_wit_favor said:


> Thank you so much for that reference...and I've heard him call us 'little gods', but its deeper than that he's referring to "Let us make man, in our image ,after our *likeness*" Likeness in Hebrew means 'an exact duplication in kind'. That doesnt mean we're equal to God but we are little gods. Sometimes to get the deeper meaning of the bible you have to refer to the original language in which it was written, which was Hebrew and Greek. But that's a different discussion...I really dont want to get into that I'm not really into debating the Word of God..God's word is able to stand on it's own without my help. When I hear things that I'm not sure about or that are unsettling to me, I go to the Teacher which is the Holy Ghost, and get my answer.
> 
> Back to the subject at hand, may I ask you what is wrong with prosperity, if you are against preachers speaking on prospering financially?


 
How do you feel about him saying that Jesus Christ was not God? 

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but can you explain why it's ok to think of ourselves as gods? And if it's an "Exact duplication", then that would mean that it's the same thing, made again, right? Likeness isn't the exact same thing, it's a representation of something. If there is a scriptural reference for all this, I would like to read it. I don't mind getting deep, if I can learn something.

As for prosperity...that's another deep discussion.


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## hair_wit_favor (Sep 4, 2007)

Something is goin' on with my computer--it's not allowing me to see neither music video or Creflo's part on Jesus not being God...I'd have to hear the whole thing to see where he was coming from with that. ..I'd like to hear Pastor Dollar's explanation...maybe I can go to his website and find the message in his archives.


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## alexstin (Sep 4, 2007)

lauren450 said:


> How do you feel about him saying that Jesus Christ was not God?
> 
> I'm not trying to be argumentative,* but can you explain why it's ok to think of ourselves as gods? *And if it's an "Exact duplication", then that would mean that it's the same thing, made again, right? Likeness isn't the exact same thing, it's a representation of something. If there is a scriptural reference for all this, I would like to read it. I don't mind getting deep, if I can learn something.
> 
> As for prosperity...that's another deep discussion.



Psalm 82:6 *I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High.* 

Psalm 8:5 *Yet You have made him a little lower than God, And You crown him with glory and majesty! *  It's interesting how in Hebrews the verse has been changed and states we are a little lower than angels.

That being said, we are not God but we came out of Him. No different than pouring from a pitcher of water into a glass. Everything that the pitcher has, the glass has in a lesser form. Or your kids.... they're not you but they may be your mini-me. They are _like_ you.


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## Southernbella. (Sep 5, 2007)

alexstin said:


> Psalm 82:6 *I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High.*
> 
> Psalm 8:5 *Yet You have made him a little lower than God, And You crown him with glory and majesty! *It's interesting how in Hebrews the verse has been changed and states we are a little lower than angels.
> 
> That being said, we are not God but we came out of Him. No different than pouring from a pitcher of water into a glass. Everything that the pitcher has, the glass has in a lesser form. Or your kids.... they're not you but they may be your mini-me. They are _like_ you.


 
Thanks Alexstin. In Psalm 82, in context, God is speaking to judges, not to regular men. gods, in Psalm 82, referred to the judges whom God appointed to rule over those lands. They were unjust and unfair, and God has called them to do their God-appointed duties. So god in this case means judge, not a copy of God himself.

You are right, wrt Psalm 8:5. The Hebrew verse, and in the KJV, it states we are lower than angels. Modern versions appear to want to get us closer to God, which is scary considering that is how Satan tempted Eve in the garden.

Either way, though, we are lower than God and it doesn't say that we are gods, just that we were made in His image. In context with what Dollar was saying, we are gods and have God-like abilities, which is not true at all.

ETA: _El_, and the plural form _Elohim_, is used frequently in Hebrew texts. El was originally a Canaanite god whose name, meaning powerful one, became generic for all god(s) and mighty men in Hebrew. It also is used in reference to deities of other religions, to angels, and to *human judges*.


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## alexstin (Sep 5, 2007)

lauren450 said:


> Thanks Alexstin. *In Psalm 82, in context, God is speaking to judges, not to regular men. gods,* in Psalm 82, referred to the judges whom God appointed to rule over those lands. They were unjust and unfair, and God has called them to do their God-appointed duties. So god in this case means judge, not a copy of God himself.
> 
> You are right, wrt Psalm 8:5. The Hebrew verse, and in the KJV, it states we are lower than angels. Modern versions appear to want to get us closer to God, which is scary considering that is how Satan tempted Eve in the garden.
> 
> ...


 
The only reason God gave judges is because the children of Israel didn't want Him as their king way back in Exodus. So, God brought Kings, Judges and prophets into their lives to steer them back to Him. So if the Israelites had obeyed God from the beginning than who would that God ordained authority have gone to? God wanted to make them a kingdom of priests to rule and govern the earth. They would have been the ones to model all that the Fathe desired when He put us on Earth. They didn't want that and so God had to raise up others. 

  As far as Psalm 8:5, I think you're confusing what I'm saying. Originally the scriptures read that we are a little lower than God. The NT translators changed it to "lower than angels". Children of God are not lower than angels. Scripturally, angels are servants of those who will inherit salvation. 



*want to get us closer to God, which is scary considering that is how Satan tempted Eve in the garden.

*

I found the above bolded comment interesting. Please explain further. This convo is quite interesting


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## hair_wit_favor (Sep 5, 2007)

Oh, I'm not offended at all, and I hope I don't offend you as well! I was just answering your question about why we have a problem with his message. 

As for Katrina, I donated items from my own home. I cleared out my stockpiles and gave away clothes and a stroller and plenty of stuff. I didn't spend anything.

As for building hospitals...I know where World Changers is located. There are PLENTY of poor people right around there who could use that help. I have nothing against him wanting to do good overseas, but I can't help but wonder if, instead of asking the congregation to give till it hurts, he couldn't give away one of his $400,000 cars to help fund this.

But that's all my opinion. The facts of what he says about Jesus are more important.[/quote]

No ma'am, I'm not offended as well, I think this is a very interesting discussion. It's all in love, so that we both may learn...It's very good you were able to donate items from your home, but the fact still is, somebody had to spend money to provide for those people. It took money to drive those 18 wheelers down there with truck loads full of resources, everything that was provided wasnt just something someone had in their home. I think you can agree with that.  I'm not sure I agree with giving until it hurts, because the bible says God loves a cheerful giver, and I dont know a lot of ppl that would be cheerful if they're hurtin'... Anyways, I believe Pastor Dollar is tryin' to teach about sowing and reaping. When you sow into the kingdom of God, that means you're putting His (God's) business first, and when you do that, He's going to make sure your needs are met. Another thing is that you dont have to give to Pastor Dollar's ministries, when watching his broadcast someone may be inspired to start sowing into their home church ministry. When sowing into a ministry you need to be led...even Paul had partners in his ministry. I'll look up that particular part later today so that I may share it with you, my lhcf sister. As far as his $400,000 car (does he really have one)...a lot of people dont realize a lot of men of God dont have to purchase those, people actually sow cars to them...those people that sow it, are sure to reap a harvest. I dont mind seeing a man of God in a nice ride, why not? The drug dealers are ridin' smooth, cant our pastors ride smooth? (I'm not sayin that you're against it)...

This reminds me of a story of when Jesus was teaching a message on Peter's boat (I think it was Peter, I'll go and verify in a minute)...anyways as He was through teaching on the boat, He had Peter go out in the sea to get some fish and Peter was like (this isnt verbatim) Lord, I done already been out there all night, and I caught a thing...well, do you know they went out there and got a boat load of fish...After they got enough fish they couldve left, No Jesus wanted him to have *more than enough*--I mean from what I read it was just a lot of fish, the boat was overflowing with fish. Peter was takin' care of Jesus' business by allowing him to use his boat, and Jesus made sure Peter was reaping the benefits of seeking kingdom business. (Now that I've said that let me gone verify the name) ..this is a great thread!


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## Southernbella. (Sep 5, 2007)

alexstin said:


> The only reason God gave judges is because the children of Israel didn't want Him as their king way back in Exodus. So, God brought Kings, Judges and prophets into their lives to steer them back to Him. So if the Israelites had obeyed God from the beginning than who would that God ordained authority have gone to? God wanted to make them a kingdom of priests to rule and govern the earth. They would have been the ones to model all that the Fathe desired when He put us on Earth. They didn't want that and so God had to raise up others.
> 
> As far as Psalm 8:5, I think you're confusing what I'm saying. Originally the scriptures read that we are a little lower than God. The NT translators changed it to "lower than angels". Children of God are not lower than angels. Scripturally, angels are servants of those who will inherit salvation.
> 
> ...


 
Right, I was typing faster than my mind was going! (You know how I do)

In the original Hebrew, the word was elohim, which is a word for God, or gods, or diving beings. What I'm saying is that the modern versions of the Bible translate elohim to God, rather than angels. That would make us higher than Jesus, because we see in Hebrews that Jesus, when on earth in human form, was made lower than the angels.

*Hebrews 2:7-9*

_7Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: _


_ 8Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. _
_ 9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. _

And in Luke, when Jesus is speaking to the elders about the widow who had several husbands, asking who she would belong to in death, he says

*Luke 20:34-36*

_34And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: _


_ 35But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: _
_ 36Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. _

So we will be equal to the angels after the resurrection, but we aren't equal to, or above, the angels right now.

So what I'm saying is that modern interpretations interpret elohim to mean God, but that isn't correct if we look at it in context with what the Bible says about Jesus, and with what he says about us in the afterlife.

My point about getting closer to being like God is this:

*Genesis 3:4-5*

4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." 

Satan tempted Eve by telling her she would be like God. Some of the heresy we see today is based on this same argument...being little gods, having God-like abilities, having literal dominion over the earth...and that's scary to me because many of us believe this.


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## Southernbella. (Sep 5, 2007)

hair_wit_favor said:


> Oh, I'm not offended at all, and I hope I don't offend you as well! I was just answering your question about why we have a problem with his message.
> 
> As for Katrina, I donated items from my own home. I cleared out my stockpiles and gave away clothes and a stroller and plenty of stuff. I didn't spend anything.
> 
> ...


 

*So what do you think of the fact that Creflo believes Jesus was not God?* I think that's a very big deal, in that he is essentially denying who Jesus was. That's the danger with people like him. THey are so charasmatic and likeable that people generally don't really listen to exactly what he's saying. 

As for the prosperity stuff, I grew up under the prosperity doctrine, so I heard it all. I still haven't found the scriptures to support it, so I'll leave that to yall.

Since you asked, yes, Creflo has a $400k car, as well as a million dollar home in atlanta, a private jet, and a recently acquired 2.5 million dollar home in Manhattan.

I'm not against the man having these things, per se. What I am against is him twisting the scripture to get his much less wealthy congregation to fund his endeavors, while he lives like a king. 

As for ministry partners, I know Paul had them, and I think that's biblical, but I think his focus is off. He teaches tithing as law, which isn't scriptural. If he has ministry partners, why does he tell his members they need to tithe? Did Paul do that? No, because he knew it wasn't scriptural.


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## tffy2004 (Sep 5, 2007)

As for the video, to me its just another Hip-Hop Video about money. True it doesn't have women it it, but what do you see in the background, how does the video open up?

I *DO NOT* like the Prosperity Message.

Because it basically teaches give your money to the church and you will be Rich. Why not teach your members about Jesus, Salvation, how to pay their tithes, and manage their money, and stop tryin to compete with the Jones' down the street. If I'm not mistaken this material stuff ain't goin to Heaven or hell with us when we go, so it don't matter what the drug dealer got. Watch any one of these mega churches on tv and the message 9 times out of 10 is money money money. They are preaching all about how the sinners have this and the sinners have that and saints deserve it too, get these people all fired up about gettin material things and then tell them 'give me your money and I will pray that God give you the material things you want'.

With the way things are going now a days the Central message should be Salvation and getting your house in order, but instead its send me some money and I will pray for you and your family.



> we cant be so quick to judge....Let's be careful, because we dont want to put our mouth on a man of God



No one is judging the man, too many single mothers have to scrape to feed their kids, too many black men are uneducated, too many black men are in prison, too many people are homeless and starving, too many children are being raped, molested and being sold into slavery, for these 'Men of God' to ranting and raving about money. Show the single mother how to manage what she has and point her in the direction of people you know who are looking for a hard worker so she can get some experience and get an even better job. Get that black man and show him that it's not to late to get that education. Get that homeless person take them to your home give them a shower, take them to your closet give them a suit, give him a meal, show him some things that will help him help himself. Let your law makers know that you won't stand for another child rapist being sent back into the streets without keepin a close eye on them and knowing where they live.

There are soo many other things to preach and teach other than money. If we manage the money we have we won't need to be begging God and confessing "My Money Cometh"

And since when did having a church become a business? I thought the money given in your tithes and offerings was to take care of church bills and to be put aside for when that elderly lady who has been going to that church for the past 7 years can't get her medication cause jacked up health care expects her to pay an arm and a leg for a prescription.

It Makes Me Sick

Sell that jet and one of those houses and build a center for women who are pregnant or have small children and can't get it together, that gives them the skills they need to make it on their own. Show them how to apply for federal loans to go to school and show them that there are programs out there that will help them pay for child care.

It breaks my heart that these men and women are pimping God and Jesus


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## alexstin (Sep 5, 2007)

lauren450 said:


> Right, I was typing faster than my mind was going! (You know how I do)
> 
> In the original Hebrew, the word was elohim, which is a word for God, or gods, or diving beings. What I'm saying is that the modern versions of the Bible translate elohim to God, rather than angels. That would make us higher than Jesus, because we see in Hebrews that Jesus, when on earth in human form, was made lower than the angels.
> 
> ...





See, I believe that verse about Jesus was translated incorrectly. I believe the original Hebrew translation is right.

Are you referring to a different verse than the above for your stance on angels? For me, the son(us) is always greater than the servant(angels).

*Satan tempted Eve by telling her she would be like God. Some of the heresy we see today is based on this same argument...being little gods, having God-like abilities, having literal dominion over the earth...and that's scary to me because many of us believe this*

God had already established that Adam and Eve were in His likeness. I believe I understand what you're saying. I would say they fell for a lie in the sense that they were already "like" God. "Like" in terms of what I discussed in a previous post. Through His Spirit He has given us the abilty to do things that may seem miraculous. Do you mean God-like abilities apart from God? I guess I'm not understanding.

As far as dominion, that is what God gave us and that is what Adam and Eve lost so maybe you can give clarification on what you mean by "literal dominion". How would we be living if Adam and Eve hadn't fallen?


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## alexstin (Sep 5, 2007)

tffy2004 said:


> As for the video, to me its just another Hip-Hop Video about money. True it doesn't have women it it, but what do you see in the background, how does the video open up?
> 
> I *DO NOT* like the Prosperity Message.
> 
> ...



Question...since Jesus never preached salvation to the multitudes. Why do you think that should be the central message today. Shouldn't we preach what He preached?


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## Southernbella. (Sep 5, 2007)

alexstin said:


> Question...since Jesus never preached salvation to the multitudes. Why do you think that should be the central message today. Shouldn't we preach what He preached?


 
Well, he did say that no man could come to the Father but through him. That essentially means salvation.


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## alexstin (Sep 5, 2007)

lauren450 said:


> Well, *he did say that no man could come to the Father but through him. *That essentially means salvation.



Sure did but He only told one person they needed to be born again and that was in private, because He was asked.

He also didn't tell the crowd that He was going to die on the cross. He only said it in private. Yet, 90% or more of the churches around the world will preach endlessly on salvation and the cross to those that need to know the Father, while neglecting the message that Jesus did preach.


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## Southernbella. (Sep 5, 2007)

alexstin said:


> See, I believe that verse about Jesus was translated incorrectly. I believe the original Hebrew translation is right.
> 
> Are you referring to a different verse than the above for your stance on angels? For me, the son(us) is always greater than the servant(angels).
> 
> ...


 
The thing is, the verse about Jesus has NEVER been translated to say God in any bible, but the verse about men has. Why is that, I wonder? Since elohim can mean God, gods, angels, or judges, why change the interpretation in one verse but not the other? If the verse about Jesus has never been changed, then I'm thinking it's because that was what was truly meant. Jesus, God in human form, was made a little lower than angels because that is how humans were made. 

As for literal dominion, I mean the message that we are supposed to own and run everything here on earth. I have found no biblical basis for this. Yes, God gave man dominion over the animals (I know it says "over all the earth", but the Hebrew translations is "and all the wild animals"), but I have never seen anything that specifically calls Christians to rule the earth.

The prosperity message, as a whole, is dangerous because it tells us that we are gods (not just made in His image, but little versions of Him), can call things into being like God, and are supposed to have dominion and soverienty, like God. If you have biblical support for this, I'd like to read it because I haven't been able to find any yet. I have heard twisting of some scriptures to get there, though, but WOF teachers.


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## hair_wit_favor (Sep 5, 2007)

tffy2004 said:


> *As for the video, to me its just another Hip-Hop Video about money. True it doesn't have women it it, but what do you see in the background, how does the video open up?*
> 
> I was unable to see the video...but if it has a lot of materialistic things, I wouldnt be interested, but dont get me wrong I like nice stuff.
> *I DO NOT like the Prosperity Message*.
> ...


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## Southernbella. (Sep 5, 2007)

alexstin said:


> Sure did but He only told one person they needed to be born again and that was in private, because He was asked.
> 
> He also didn't tell the crowd that He was going to die on the cross. He only said it in private. Yet, 90% or more of the churches around the world will preach endlessly on salvation and the cross to those that need to know the Father, while neglecting the message that Jesus did preach.


 
I agree with this. I think salvation is a part of it, but there is also repentance, the good news of the kingdom, love, peace, grace and mercy, among other things.


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## alexstin (Sep 5, 2007)

lauren450 said:


> The thing is, the verse about Jesus has NEVER been translated to say God in any bible, but the verse about men has. Why is that, I wonder? Since elohim can mean God, gods, angels, or judges, why change the interpretation in one verse but not the other? If the verse about Jesus has never been changed, then I'm thinking it's because that was what was truly meant. Jesus, God in human form, was made a little lower than angels because that is how humans were made.
> 
> As for literal dominion, I mean the message that we are supposed to own and run everything here on earth. I have found no biblical basis for this. Yes, God gave man dominion over the animals (I know it says "over all the earth", but the Hebrew translations is "and all the wild animals"), but I have never seen anything that specifically calls Christians to rule the earth.
> 
> The prosperity message, as a whole, is dangerous because it tells us that we are gods (not just made in His image, but little versions of Him), can call things into being like God, and are supposed to have dominion and soverienty, like God. If you have biblical support for this, I'd like to read it because I haven't been able to find any yet. I have heard twisting of some scriptures to get there, though, but WOF teachers.



What verse are you referring to in stating humans are made lower than the angels?

As far as Jesus. It would be more believeable if the first mention of the verse said angels and then it was switched to God in the NT. It doens't make sense in the reverse.  

What other scriptures are you referring to where the use of Elohim as God is ambiguous?

As far as dominion, Gen 1:28 God told them to subdue the earth. The Hebrew word for subdue is Kabash which means: to subject, subdue, force, keep under, bring into bondage

As for as the prosperity message, I don't believe in taking any part of the benefits of the Kingdom and isolating them(faith, healing, prosperity). I don't really know what all the prosperity message entails because I just don't listen to most of what's out there.


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## alexstin (Sep 5, 2007)

lauren450 said:


> I agree with this. *I think salvation is a part of it, but there is also repentance,* the good news of the kingdom, love, peace, grace and mercy, among other things.



No doubt!!


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## hair_wit_favor (Sep 5, 2007)

I have truly enjoyed this discussion, I hope I didnt come off in a rude way or anything, because that's not Christlike, If I did I apologize.  I hope you ladies enjoy the rest of your day--I gotta go be nosey in the other threads!


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## alexstin (Sep 5, 2007)

hair_wit_favor said:


> I have truly enjoyed this discussion, I hope I didnt come off in a rude way or anything, because that's not Christlike, If I did I apologize.  I hope you ladies enjoy the rest of your day--I gotta go be nosey in the other threads!




I need to be teaching my kids.


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## hair_wit_favor (Sep 5, 2007)

*This is just a list of programs available to those who are members of Creflo Dollar's church World Changers...*


*Adult Literacy* - With the help of tutors, students with a fourth grade reading level or below learn how to read and write or enhance their reading and writing abilities and master basic math skills. 
*Anointed Children For Christ* - Promotes fun while building character and teaching children 12 years old and younger the fundamental principles of Christianity. 
*Athletic Program* - This program focuses on boosting each player's level of self-confidence and enhances character through teamwork, problem-solving and positive conduct. 
*Bondage Breakers* - A group therapy program geared toward individuals who struggle with alcohol and drug dependency. With patience, determination and assistance from program graduates, individuals and their family members strive to uncover and understand the reasons behind the addictions and work through the issues that affect the users and their loved ones. Annual seminars focus on training and educating facilitators and family members in the spiritual and clinical treatment of addicts. 
*Boy Scouts* - A World Changers Church International (WCCI) chartered Boy Scouts chapter uses a hands-on approach to build character in boys and young men through activities that promote teamwork, initiative, creativity and problem-solving and those that cover citizenship, first-aid, outdoor survival and the development of a personal fitness program. Three times a month, Boy Scouts participate in organized events such as camping retreats. 
*Boys Mentoring* - This program is geared toward boys 6-18 years old who come from single-parent homes. It provides the boys with a positive male role model who can impart wisdom and teach them the practical life skills that will enable them to succeed. 
*Career Development Center* - A department specifically geared toward assisting in obtaining employment with one of the several thousand companies in the Metro-Atlanta area. With the assistance of a regional employment database, individuals are placed in jobs comparable to their skill level. In addition, the Employment Resources Department offers job counseling and classes on resume writing and business etiquette. 
*Families & Mentors (FAM)* - A mentoring program for families who live in low-income communities and receive government assistance. Through training and counseling, FAM assists these families in becoming self-sufficient. 
*Financial Resources* - A network of professionals that offers a variety of services to the community, such as biweekly financial workshops, tax return preparation assistance, personal financial counseling, and informative workshops and seminars designed to educate and empower individuals to make wise financial decisions. 
*G.E.D. Preparation* - In a classroom setting, students with a ninth to 12th grade reading level master the skills needed to pass the high-school equivalency test (GED) and receive a high school diploma. Students must take assessment tests at the beginning and at the end of the program. 
*General Tutorial* - Offers tutorial services on Mondays and Saturdays to students in grades K-12 needing assistance in Reading, Math, English and SAT preparation. 
*Girls Mentoring* - This program is geared toward girls 6-18 years old who come from single-parent homes. It provides the girls with a positive female role model who can impart wisdom and teach them the practical life skills that will enable them to succeed. 
*Health & Fitness* - This department promotes the development of a personal fitness regimen and healthy lifestyle for its participants. In addition to nutritional counseling, training and the frequent seminars hosted by nutritionists and certified trainers, individuals may also participate in step aerobics, body sculpting classes (weight training), cardio kickboxing, running and walking. 
*Home School Fellowship* - Provides opportunities for parents who home-school their children to come together to solve problems, share ideas and enjoy fun activities with their children such as field trips and seminars. Families may also register for elective classes to supplement their curricula of choice. 
*Housing Resources* - A network of mortgage brokers, real estate agents and bank representatives that offers information, assistance, resources and personal consultations to individuals and families desiring to improve their current housing status. 
*The Judah Generation* - This program transports children from surrounding Metro-Atlanta communities to the World Changers Ministries (WCM) campus for the Super Saturday church service. Children are fed breakfast and are then taught basic biblical principles through a variety of fun-filled activities geared toward their specific age-range. _Judah Generation_, through creative and biblically sound methods, instills positive values in children. As such, parents, community leaders and law enforcement officials have seen a tremendous change for the better in the areas where these children live. 
*Legal Resources* - A group of legal professionals that empowers individuals with a clear understanding of their rights and responsibilities. Complimentary services include consultations, dispute resolution and seminars that address specific legal issues. 
*Men's Fellowship* - Our mission is to develop strong friendships and accountability among the men of World Changers Church International through regular gatherings and group interaction, and ultimately build the character of Jesus Christ into every man who involves himself with the Men’s Fellowship. 
*Ministry of Resources* - Provides a point of contact to those with social service needs. Resource coordinators assist these individuals in acquiring resources such as food, clothing and shelter through financial counseling and aid, Discount Buying Club purchases and the WCCI Thrift Store. 
*Mothers of Preschoolers(MOPS)* - MOPS is a ministry program for stay-at-home mothers of children five years old and younger. With the encouragement, support and friendship of other mothers in the program, coupled with educational tools and life skills training, these women learn how to augment their skills as mothers, enhance their relationships with their spouses and strengthen their Christian beliefs. Individuals are also assigned to specific discussion groups tailored to their interests or needs. In addition, during these meetings, the children are cared for through the MOPPETS program. 
*Nursing Home Ministry* - Conducts weekly visits to those residing in nursing homes and provides individual and group counseling. Gifts are also distributed during the holiday season. 
*Operation Nehemiah* - A coalition of independent and professional contractors, plumbers, electricians, painters and general laborers that volunteer their time and skills to assist elderly and handicapped individuals in need of home repair. 
*Overcomers Ministry* - A group therapy approach to developing wholeness in the lives of homosexuals and bisexuals. It is a vehicle to help individuals discover and understand their true identity according to the Word of God. 
*Pre-G.E.D. Preparation* - With the help of tutors, students with a fifth to eighth grade reading level master the skills needed to advance to the GED Preparation program. 
*Prison Ministry* - This program brings compassion, caring and church services to inmates in correctional facilities throughout the southeastern and southwestern United States. It offers group and individual counseling as well as encouragement through written correspondence. In addition, WCCI donates books, tapes and Bibles for the spiritual and mental edification of prisoners. 
*Victory in Education* - Promotes academic advancement through a variety of programs and offers assistance in Reading, Math, English and SAT Preparation. 
*Women's Ministry* - As sisters in one Body, our mission is to see every woman develop into the fullness of the virtuous woman God intended for her to be.


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## MindTwister (Sep 5, 2007)

alexstin said:


> Sure did but He only told one person they needed to be born again and that was in private, because He was asked.
> 
> He also didn't tell the crowd that He was going to die on the cross. He only said it in private. Yet, 90% or more of the churches around the world will preach endlessly on salvation and the cross to those that need to know the Father, while neglecting the message that Jesus did preach.


This is the 2nd time I have read your mention of this and this has me confused 
Are you saying that because Jesus told about salvation to one person only being saved is not important?
Is your objection with teaching salvation alltogether or does it lie with teaching ONLY/MOSTLY how to get saved?

As for salvation and repentance as mentionned by Lauren, my question is: isn't repentance a part of salvation? Can one be taught without the other?


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## alexstin (Sep 5, 2007)

MindTwister said:


> This is the 2nd time I have read your mention of this and this has me confused
> Are you saying that because Jesus told about salvation to one person only being saved is not important?
> Is your objection with teaching salvation alltogether or does it lie with teaching ONLY/MOSTLY how to get saved?
> 
> As for salvation and repentance as mentionned by Lauren, my question is: isn't repentance a part of salvation? Can one be taught without the other?




Salvation is extremely important as you can't enter God's kingdom without it. My problem is preaching salvation and going to Heaven at the ultimate reason for Jesus coming to earth. Jesus didn't come to get us salvation and that was it. Adam and Eve didn't lose heaven when they fell. They lost the right to govern the earth and they lost Holy Spirit. 

There is no biblical evidence to support the stance that the church has taken that Jesus died just so we could be cleansed and eventually go to Heaven. Yes, we will go there if we die in Christ but He ultimately wanted us to have Holy Spirit so we could once again live from the inside out as opposed to how we live now.

Do you realize that once Adam and Eve fell they could only gain info based on their five senses? Do you realize how misleading that can be. It's evidenced by our world today that living based on our senses sets us up for bad decisions. 

The curse of Adam is the curse of information. God never intended for Adam or anyone in the body of Christ to live by knowledge. Once Adam choose to eat from the tree of the Knowledge of good and evil, he chose information over revelation. God's spirit left him and he and mankind were limited to what they knew. That why it was imperative for Holy Spirit to come and dwell in us so that once again we could live a life based on the revelation of God. Otherwise we are always learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth

By receiving Holy Spirit we can once again discern the will of God in every area of our lives so we win. We can also take on the attributes of God through gifts of the Spirit and the miracles He does through us.

Holy Spirit is the only one on earth that knows the Father intimately and He gives the Father's thoughts to us. He also guides us in the culture of the Kingdom that God wanted from the beginning.

So, I say all that to say that God never established a religion but we have turned what Jesus did into a religion instead of carefully studying to see what He intended to accomplish by what He did. You can't separate what Jesus accomplished from the ultimate plan of God "in the beginning". God's plans are eternal and He established His plans for us way back in Genesis 1. 


One more interesting tidbit. Isn't it interesting that the disciples spent so much time with Jesus and yet when He sent them out to preach He gave them specific instructions on what to preach.

Could it be that He did this because He knew that after watching Him for all that time they would be tempted to preach more about the things *He did *as opposed to what His message was. Kinda sounds like the church today, huh?


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## MindTwister (Sep 5, 2007)

alexstin said:


> Salvation is extremely important as you can't enter God's kingdom without it. My problem is preaching salvation and going to Heaven at the ultimate reason for Jesus coming to earth. Jesus didn't come to get us salvation and that was it. Adam and Eve didn't lose heaven when they fell. They lost the right to govern the earth and they lost Holy Spirit.
> 
> There is no biblical evidence to support the stance that the church has taken that Jesus died just so we could be cleansed and eventually go to Heaven. Yes, we will go there if we die in Christ but He ultimately wanted us to have Holy Spirit so we could once again live from the inside out as opposed to how we live now.
> 
> ...


Thank you for explaining yourself at such great length, I really appreciate it
This stance is different from/challenges everything that I've heard before and since I don't know my Bible all too well I can't yet form my "final" stance/opinion. But this gives me something else to think about and try and study.
Do you have scriptural support for your stance Alexstin? I'm sure there are probably tons of them but could you please help me out with a few ones that were key to reaching your conclusion?

By the way is this point of view discussed in "Rediscovering the Kingdom" by Myles Munroe? I havent gotten the book yet though I said I would and this might give me an extra boost to buy it


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## alexstin (Sep 5, 2007)

MindTwister said:


> Thank you for explaining yourself at such great length, I really appreciate it
> This stance is different from/challenges everything that I've heard before and since I don't know my Bible all too well I can't yet form my "final" stance/opinion. But this gives me something else to think about and try and study.
> Do you have scriptural support for your stance Alexstin? I'm sure there are probably tons of them but could you please help me out with a few ones that were key to reaching your conclusion?
> 
> By the way is this point of view discussed in "Rediscovering the Kingdom" by Myles Munroe? I havent gotten the book yet though I said I would and this might give me an extra boost to buy it



It is discussed there.  It's good for you to do your own research. We should all study so that we know for ourselves what the word says.

A few scriptures

*Original mandate *Gen 1:26-28

*God's desire to have a kingdom of kings*Exodus 19:5-6

*Born to rule not to be ruled*:

Psalm 115:14-16

*The promise of kingdom rediscovery*:

pslm 145:13, isaiah 9:6-7,  Dan 7:13-14

*Original mission of *Jesus:

Matt 4:17,Matt 9:35, Matt 10:7, Matt 24:14, Luke 4:43-44, Luke 8:1, Luke 9:11, Luke 16:16-17, Luke 22:29

*Holy Spirit*:

john 14:16-17, 1 cor 2:10-13

*your place in the kingdom:*
1 pet 2:4-6:9-10


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## MindTwister (Sep 5, 2007)

Thanks a lot once again Alexstin


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## alexstin (Sep 5, 2007)

MindTwister said:


> Thanks a lot once again Alexstin



You're welcome!


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## ajoyfuljoy (Sep 5, 2007)

All they were missing was the video girls flapping their cheeks in the camera! I understand getting a message across. But their comes a point where the whole music thing can become very unoriginal, and it is really obvious that they are just copying off of the mainstream ganster rap industry.


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## babydollhair (Sep 5, 2007)

Is Creflo saying Jesus was not God at first because i he got tired, and God never gets tired, okay I hope he does no longer teach this. 

1 Timothy 3:16

Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: 

He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.

colossians 1:15-20 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation....

John 8:56-  ....Jesus speaking " Your father abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

You are not fifty years old the Jews said to him and you have seen Abraham?

"I tell you the truth" Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

What did this mean to the Jews, when Moses asked God who shall i say sent me when going back to tell Pharoah to let my people go, God said I am that I am.

and John 1


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## babydollhair (Sep 5, 2007)

Don't mean to overtake the thread i just wanted to add a few more scriptures if thats okay dealing with what Jesus said about himself.

John 6:32-35 Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33 "For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." 34 Then they said to Him, "Lord, always give us this bread." 35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.

John 6:38-40: "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47-51 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 "I am the bread of life. 49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 "This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 "I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever 

John 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

Mat 18:11 "For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.

Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

John 12:46 "I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness. 

John 18:37 Therefore Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."

John 10:10 "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.


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## live2bgr8 (Sep 7, 2007)

hair_wit_favor said:


> For some reason I'm not able to open it...is it just saying money cometh to me, I'm a money magnet...? I'm going to try again when I get home--I enjoy Pastor Dollar so I need to take a look at this..*are you guys against the money message?*


 
A person can not serve two masters... The money message stirs up a love for it. Once a person loves money, it's hard for them to truly love God (or anything else for that matter). There is only one top postion in a person's heart-- there is no such thing as a tie.

If a person thinks blessing only comes in the form of money or if they think that God is only in the blessing business, they've already sold out to the money-- instead of being "soul"ed out to God. God seeks to refine us.

I think people who preach the distorted prosperity Gospel do not see money as a tool, but rather an end...

One of the most symptomatic problem of this line of thinking is selfishness. Leaders are storing up treasures here on Earth instead of heaven. Some people don't even know how thouroughly Satan has deceived them.


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## He_Leads_I_follow (Sep 7, 2007)

May I chime in?

I have a big problem with Money monger ministries. 

If this is biblically based then it should work ANYWHERE AND EVERYWHERE. 

So, the refugees of Darfur just need a few hours of Pastor Dollar's time, then...problem solved!

Then again I guess they are in great poverty because they chose it . They don't have enough faith and yada yada yada! Come on! But I guess if you have to purchase your blessing and you don't have any money to "sow" (the biggest pimped out word in the churches today) then you're just plum out of luck then, eh?  

Seriously, we are to be and build disciples. The salvation message is first, repentence second and then the process of sanctification.

My prayer is that of Proverbs 30. 

Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me: Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the LORD? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain. (Pr 30:8-9)

I want enough that I would be comfortable and be able to bless others. You shouldn't want too much in this earthly realm because man can not help but be corroupted by it . That is why if you see anyone with great wealth yet they are still good humble people, that is because they give most of it away. Great wealth and fame corrupts man it cannot be avoided.

One more thing. Did I read right? This man has a $400,000 car?!!!! That is gross!


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## He_Leads_I_follow (Sep 7, 2007)

Ooooookkaaay! I just watched the video! A standing ovation?!  God help us! Indeed the scriptures are true they will not endure sound doctrine. That made me mad!

Nothing wrong with aquiiring wealth but for people to delude themselves into thinking that EVERYONE will be wealthy is not only NOT biblical (the poor you will have with you always) but our system will topple! I mean eventually God is going to shut it all down but not that way. 

Please, if half the people wishin' for money had it , they would lose it faster than they got it! Also, doesn't the wicked prosper? Have you ever seen a buddhist, a muslim or any other non beleiver aquire wealth by honest means?  They have. So then how is the salavtion message tied into getting money. My lawd, they said money more times than they said Jesus. Seek ye first the Kingdom of God. Mercy, that was a sickening video. I hope that sunday was confirmation for people to leave that church. Man , as money hungry and deluded kids are by secular videos, he goes and mimics the same lie. I didn't hear anything about how this money comes though. Should they still be playing the lottery beleiveing that is how their money is comin'? Or be a little dishonest here and there. Work off the books. Afterall the wealth of the wicked is stored up for the righteous, right?. And we all know how wicked and perverse the goverment is. Why should I be all that honest on my taxes.  You can easily cause yourself to believe a lie. 

ANd he said he would never be sick in his life or broke. The body dies daily. I guess those with cancer willed it on themselves?! Or maybe they are just not truly saved? 

quote: "I see my money comin! I see my money comin!" 

No, clown! what's comin' is judgement!


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## lady_godiva (Sep 8, 2007)

tffy2004 said:


> Before you go to the site think about your own personal walk with Jesus and your own relationship with God and what is important to you.
> 
> Title of the song:
> *Money Comin*


 



If this is true, then he should take this message to Haiti and other developing countries so that they too will have wealth.


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## napgurl (Sep 12, 2007)

100384 said:


> Is Creflo saying Jesus was not God at first because i he got tired, and God never gets tired, okay I hope he does no longer teach this.
> 
> 1 Timothy 3:16
> 
> ...


I was in the audience when he said this.  He said when Jesus was here on Earth he came in the form of a man not as the form of God in the spirit.  That is why Jesus is able to relate to your temptations and infirmities and still not sin.  Jesus was in his earth suite -- flesh and blood.


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