# Prenuptial Agreements: Yay or Nay for Christian Marriages



## PaperClip (Jan 19, 2007)

This topic was on a radio program this morning. I listened to the discussion with more "mature" ears today than I had in the past.

On one hand, I understand the "leave and cleave" principle of marriage. On the other hand, as a single person, a single woman at that, I am building assests for myself, going to school, etc. Also, I am beyond the traditional church marrying age (25 or younger). At 25, I can imagine blending with my husband and we build together. But I'm not 25 anymore. Yes, this is definitely about issues of trust, but also about wise stewardship, yes?

I did not plan to not be married at this age. I expected to be married. I got a 'lil bit now.... Isn't protection and (financial) self-preservation a wise decision?

Looking forward to a sincere and thought-provoking dialogue.


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## Keen (Jan 19, 2007)

I have to say Nay. To me, prenupts negates the forever part of the vows. It's like you are going in the marriage with an expectation of failure. If that is the case, you don't need to marry that person.


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## firecracker (Jan 19, 2007)

Shot forget that I want both of us to retain whatever we come it to the marriage with.  We can split whatever we obtain together if we divorce at this late age.


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## Lusa (Jan 19, 2007)

I say yes wholeheartedly. I think it's even more important as people wait longer to get married. There's a lot at risk and I don't begrudge anyone the right to protect their finances/investments that they earned prior to marrying their spouse.


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## vickid (Jan 19, 2007)

firecracker said:
			
		

> Shot forget that I want both of us to retain whatever we come it to the marriage with.  We can split whatever we obtain together if we divorce at this late age.



Hey Firecracker!  We are on the same page with this one!  Whatever is mine prior to marriage is mine and vice versa.  This has nothing to do with love, honor and respect---this has everything to do with business. Period.  My husband and I had a prenup prior to marriage and when I brought up the subject, he had no problems with it.  He knew it protected both parties. We drew up the prenup, had our separate attornies revise it and we signed it.  I don't think it was every brought up since that date.  

Funny, it was my mom (age 75) that suggested the prenup.  She said she had worked hard for everything she had and since I am her only heir, she wanted to make sure that it went to ME. Her negative experience with my dad taught her a great deal about finances and property!!!


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## PaperClip (Jan 19, 2007)

Hmm... Interesting already! I think I'm going to try to add a poll.... 

For those who said yes to prenups, do you think this is a relatively new phenomenon with influences from society (outside of church) and that the church is just late catching up to acknowledging that women are (having to) becoming more independent outside of marriage? And that women (and men) are marrying later in life?

ETA: couldn't add a poll.... Sorry!


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## Xavier (Jan 19, 2007)

Keen said:
			
		

> I have to say Nay. To me, prenupts negates the forever part of the vows. It's like you are going in the marriage with an expectation of failure. If that is the case, you don't need to marry that person.


 
I agree. If you put God first in your marriage and seek him in your decision to marry your mate then signing a prenupt is like say "I trust that this is the one you sent me Lord BUT"... If you truly TRUST the Lord in this life long commitment that you are making then there should be no doubt. Asking for a prenupt would be an insult to my mate and it would definitely be an insult to me if I was asked about one. I also believe that a prenupt is just another way that you are speaking divorce into existence your situation(marriage) without even realizing it. Just my opinion.


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## alexstin (Jan 19, 2007)

I say no.


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## Divine Inspiration (Jan 19, 2007)

Keen said:
			
		

> I have to say Nay. To me, prenupts negates the forever part of the vows. It's like you are going in the marriage with an expectation of failure. If that is the case, you don't need to marry that person.





			
				brownsugababe said:
			
		

> I agree. If you put God first in your marriage and seek him in your decision to marry your mate then signing a prenupt is like say "I trust that this is the one you sent me Lord BUT"... If you truly TRUST the Lord in this life long commitment that you are making then there should be no doubt. Asking for a prenupt would be an insult to my mate and it would definitely be an insult to me if I was asked about one. I also believe that a prenupt is just another way that you are speaking divorce into existence your situation(marriage) without even realizing it. Just my opinion.



I think a prenupt is an insult to GOD. It's a suggestion that God is not ordering the steps of your marriage and/or your individual steps. How can I say I have faith but turn around and sign a document to "protect myself"? Protect myself from what?! That's what God is doing! There is NOTHING I can protect myself from that God can't handle. My faith should lie with him...not with some signatures. What do I have really faith in? If I believe that if God is for me, NO ONE can be against me, why do I need a prenupt?? My God is bigger than me, my future husband, my attorney, my agent, my manager, my bank account, my mom, my dad...there is no such thing as a "just in case" because every single one of my steps is ordered. God will NEVER put more on me than I can bear. He is faithful and just, and He is not a malicious God. 

We protect ourselves with things like car insurance and homeowner's insurance because those are things put into place to physically protect us. How can marriage be compared to a car? How can marriage be compared to a house? To me the union before God and the exchange of vows is more profound than a prenupt would allow.

And I agree with these ladies regarding expectation. How hard are you really willing to work in a marriage knowing that you've got an insurance policy in place? The vows DO say forever, but a prenupt says "just in case." I don't think God needs help protecting us. If we pray and remain in His will, He will keep us in PERFECT peace. To me, it's the equivalent of praying over all parts of your life except one. It's like saying, "God I know you're good with the other stuff, but I can handle this one."  His ways are not my ways. Everything he can ever do or set into motion in my life is divine, and I respect that. 

Some folks say, "Well, what if he cheats on me or 'goes crazy'??" And to that I reply, What if?! How do you know what's going to happen? My question is WHO holds your tomorrow? God or your attorney? If I'm giving my marriage to God, I don't need to worry about all of the possibilities that "might" happen...because all things work together for the good of those who love Him.

I know that many people approach marriage like a business deal, and that's fine. I don't see it that way. I believe it is a sacred and divine entity that is to be respected and honored. 

The above is my opinion  and is not meant to suggest that anybody's way is wrong. These are just my thoughts on the topic. 

RR, this is a great thread!! 

{DI}


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## Supergirl (Jan 19, 2007)

What Keen, Brownsugababe, & DI said.  

I couldn't have said it better myself.  Signing a prenup is like making a provision for the marriage to fail.  As the others said, if you are trusting God in this thing, why have a "just in case?"  

Now if you are just marrying somebody and you really don't know if God put you two together (What God has joined together...) then I could see why some think a prenup is just fine for Christians.


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## StrawberryQueen (Jan 19, 2007)

Divine Inspiration said:
			
		

> I think a prenupt is an insult to GOD. It's a suggestion that God is not ordering the steps of your marriage and/or your individual steps. How can I say I have faith but turn around and sign a document to "protect myself"? Protect myself from what?! That's what God is doing! There is NOTHING I can protect myself from that God can't handle. My faith should lie with him...not with some signatures. What do I have really faith in? If I believe that if God is for me, NO ONE can be against me, why do I need a prenupt?? My God is bigger than me, my future husband, my attorney, my agent, my manager, my bank account, my mom, my dad...there is no such thing as a "just in case" because every single one of my steps is ordered. God will NEVER put more on me than I can bear. He is faithful and just, and He is not a malicious God.
> 
> We protect ourselves with things like car insurance and homeowner's insurance because those are things put into place to physically protect us. How can marriage be compared to a car? How can marriage be compared to a house? To me the union before God and the exchange of vows is more profound than a prenupt would allow.
> 
> ...


Wow DI, I love your posts!  You should be a minister to young girls.


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## Divine Inspiration (Jan 19, 2007)

StrawberryQueen said:
			
		

> Wow DI, I love your posts!  You should be a minister to young girls.



Well thank you! I'm speaking at a young women's empowerment conference tomorrow.


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## Xavier (Jan 19, 2007)

Divine Inspiration said:
			
		

> I think a prenupt is an insult to GOD. It's a suggestion that God is not ordering the steps of your marriage and/or your individual steps. How can I say I have faith but turn around and sign a document to "protect myself"? Protect myself from what?! That's what God is doing! There is NOTHING I can protect myself from that God can't handle. My faith should lie with him...not with some signatures. What do I have really faith in? If I believe that if God is for me, NO ONE can be against me, why do I need a prenupt?? My God is bigger than me, my future husband, my attorney, my agent, my manager, my bank account, my mom, my dad...there is no such thing as a "just in case" because every single one of my steps is ordered. God will NEVER put more on me than I can bear. He is faithful and just, and He is not a malicious God.
> 
> We protect ourselves with things like car insurance and homeowner's insurance because those are things put into place to physically protect us. How can marriage be compared to a car? How can marriage be compared to a house? To me the union before God and the exchange of vows is more profound than a prenupt would allow.
> 
> ...


 
That's what I'm talking about.  Preach Girl!


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## envybeauty (Jan 19, 2007)

A popular preacher preached about death (sorry to be morbid but that was his example). He was to travel to another country with some other preachers. He had a feeling that he should not take the flight and that he should stay home. He told this to another preacher and the other preacher said, I will go because I believe that God will protect me from harm. God is there and I will not be harmed.  So he went. The first preacher stayed behind. As it turns out, the preacher was killed in a car accident shortly after his flight landed and he was picked up from the airport.  The message from the preacher who lived, is that God is there yes, but bad things do happen so we also have to learn to protect ourselves as well as seek God's protection.  I hope I wrote this clearly enough for others to understand the gist of his message.

That said, I do not believe that taking measures to protect yourself from future harm is any offense to God.  No more than getting immunizations, insurance, etc.   God is there, here, everywhere, yes, but He also placed means/methods on earth for us to protect ourselves as well. 

just my opinion.


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## Southernbella. (Jan 19, 2007)

nvybeauty said:
			
		

> That said, I do not believe that taking measures to protect yourself from future harm is any offense to God.  No more than getting immunizations, insurance, etc.   God is there, here, everywhere, yes, but He also placed means/methods on earth for us to protect ourselves as well.
> 
> just my opinion.



I agree with you for the most part. My dh and I didn't have much when we got married right out of school, so I didn't have to think about this. But what if we were older and both had homes/cars/IRA's, etc? Oviously, nobody goes into marriages thinking they will get divorced, but one spouse can't control what the other does. What if your husband files? Will you just not ever sign the papers? Some things are beyond your control, so I don't see anything wrong with taking steps to make sure you are taken care of. 

Many Christians have seperate bank accounts for various reasons. Isn't this kind of similar? 

I think you can ask anyone Christian woman who's been divorced after years of trying to make it work and I'm sure they'd tell you all the things they wished they had done to better protect themselves.

Do I think prenups are in line with what God said about marriage? Probably not, but in this day and age, I think it's good to use a little wisdom.


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## Keen (Jan 19, 2007)

nvybeauty said:
			
		

> A popular preacher preached about death (sorry to be morbid but that was his example). He was to travel to another country with some other preachers. He had a feeling that he should not take the flight and that he should stay home. He told this to another preacher and the other preacher said, I will go because I believe that God will protect me from harm. God is there and I will not be harmed.  So he went. The first preacher stayed behind. As it turns out, the preacher was killed in a car accident shortly after his flight landed and he was picked up from the airport.  The message from the preacher who lived, is that God is there yes, but bad things do happen so we also have to learn to protect ourselves as well as seek God's protection.  I hope I wrote this clearly enough for others to understand the gist of his message.
> 
> That said, I do not believe that taking measures to protect yourself from future harm is any offense to God.  No more than getting immunizations, insurance, etc.   God is there, here, everywhere, yes, but He also placed means/methods on earth for us to protect ourselves as well.
> 
> just my opinion.



So the preacher chose not to go at all. Which is what I'm saying, if your gutt feeling is telling you that you will need protection from that man, just don't marry him at all.


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## Divine Inspiration (Jan 19, 2007)

Keen said:
			
		

> So the preacher chose not to go at all. Which is what I'm saying, if your gutt feeling is telling you that you will need protection from that man, just don't marry him at all.



 


OT: Lauren, that little boy is TOO cute!!


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## envybeauty (Jan 19, 2007)

Sometimes the feeling is not that direct. 

But look at what happened to the great gut feeling pastor.  Even if the other pastor had not mentioned his own ill feelings, he still would have taken the trip (as he did). He felt like he would be protected no matter what.  He committed to the trip and he took it.  Then disaster happened.

How many people get married (great gut feelings and all) and then disaster happens? About 50% in the US given the divorce rates.  That rate would be higher if people did not stay put in marriages they feel trapped in and wished they had a prenup to forecast how a divorce would turn out. Not knowing what to expect, they stay put and are miserable in their marriages. 

 Most don't see the "danger" of divorce looming until it is too late (like the other preacher --- he had great gut feelings about the trip -- but then he died).


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## kbragg (Jan 19, 2007)

Keen said:
			
		

> So the preacher chose not to go at all. Which is what I'm saying, if your gutt feeling is telling you that you will need protection from that man, just don't marry him at all.


 
You said what I was thinking! The preacher who "had a feeling" not to go was listening to the Holy Spirit's unctioning. If the Holy Spirit is telling you "no" then a Prenup won't help. You either trust God or you dont. Plain and simple. Job lost everything he had and God not only restored him, but prospered Him. Why? Because he had faith that God would preserve him in the good times AND in the bad. Signing a prenup is like saying "Well God, it's a lot different nowadays, let me do this my way...I trust you, yes this man is from you, yes your ways or perfect...but here, let me help you out."

It's the whole post modern mentality. The world entering the church. And lawyers? Jesus wasn't fond of them back then and God is the same yesterday, today and forever!  
http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=lawyers&qs_version=9

I'm joking....kinda


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## envybeauty (Jan 19, 2007)

kbragg said:
			
		

> You said what I was thinking! The preacher who "had a feeling" not to go was listening to the Holy Spirit's unctioning. If the Holy Spirit is telling you "no" then a Prenup won't help. You either trust God or you dont. Plain and simple. Job lost everything he had and God not only restored him, but prospered Him. Why? Because he had faith that God would preserve him in the good times AND in the bad. Signing a prenup is like saying "Well God, it's a lot different nowadays, let me do this my way...I trust you, yes this man is from you, yes your ways or perfect...but here, let me help you out."
> 
> It's the whole post modern mentality. The world entering the church. *And lawyers? Jesus wasn't fond of them back then and God is the same yesterday, today and forever! *
> http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=lawyers&qs_version=9
> ...


 
Lawyers do a lot of good in society.  Some of the most notable people in Black history in this country are attorneys.  If not for lawyers, there would still be slavery, segregation, and all sorts of restrictions against basic human rights for Blacks and women (and we know where Black women fit into societal mistreatment).  Many people would be proud to have their sons and daughters be lawyers instead of what they are now....if they amounted to anything at all. 

 Lawyers/prenups do not create the desire for women to leave their husbands or for men to leave their wives.  How a couple starts on the road to divorce has nothing to do with a prenup especially since most divorced couples don't have one.


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## Southernbella. (Jan 19, 2007)

> Signing a prenup is like saying "Well God, it's a lot different nowadays, let me do this my way...I trust you, yes this man is from you, yes your ways or perfect...but here, let me help you out."



So because God sent your husband to you, God will totally control him? That goes against the principle of free will.


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## Xavier (Jan 19, 2007)

lauren450 said:
			
		

> So because God sent your husband to you, God will totally control him? That goes against the principle of free will.


 
God will not control him but you should trust that if he strays and divorce does occur God will get you through that "valley experience". All you will come out better than when you came in.


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## Southernbella. (Jan 19, 2007)

Divine Inspiration said:
			
		

> OT: Lauren, that little boy is TOO cute!!



Thank you!


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## kbragg (Jan 19, 2007)

nvybeauty said:
			
		

> Lawyers do a lot of good in society. Some of the most notable people in Black history in this country are attorneys. If not for lawyers, there would still be slavery, segregation, and all sorts of restrictions against basic human rights for Blacks and women (and we know where Black women fit into societal mistreatment). Many people would be proud to have their sons and daughters be lawyers instead of what they are now....if they amounted to anything at all.
> 
> Lawyers/prenups do not create the desire for women to leave their husbands or for men to leave their wives. How a couple starts on the road to divorce has nothing to do with a prenup especially since most divorced couples don't have one.


 
It's called a joke....hence the  guy at the end of that part of my post...


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## kbragg (Jan 19, 2007)

brownsugababe said:
			
		

> God will not control him but you should trust that if he strays and divorce does occur God will get you through that "valley experience". All you will come out better than when you came in.


 
Exactly my thinking. OOOH thank you Lord! Perfect example of this is Sarah and Abraham! Thank you Lord for this! When God gave Abraham the promise what happened? They did a little "insurance" and tried to help God along. Sure they said they trusted God at His word, but just in case....here Abe, have it with my hand maiden! The Middle East is STILL a mess years later because of that! But anyway, Ishmeal (sp?) was the child of the flesh (they took it into their own hands "just in case") whereas Isaac was the child of the promise. If God has promised you a spouse, there should be no "just in case." Look what happened with Abraham and Sarah. Proof that God doesn't approve of the "just in cases" when it comes to His Word.


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## Southernbella. (Jan 19, 2007)

brownsugababe said:
			
		

> God will not control him but you should trust that if he strays and divorce does occur God will get you through that "valley experience". All you will come out better than when you came in.



I hear you. I think I'm just coming from a place of understanding for people who DO get them, especially women. 

Three years ago when I stopped working, nobody could have told me anything about setting aside my own money for emergencies. In my eyes, nothing could happen in my marriage that would require me to need my own seperate money.

Now that I have children, I see things differently. I know God put my marriage together, and I know He makes no mistakes. But people do. If my husband ever went nuts and acted a fool and I needed to get myself and my kids out of the situation, how would I do that? I trust God with everything in me, but I also trust the wisdom He's given me. 

Let's say you believe God gave you your home. If you weren't required to have homeowner's insurance, would you just trust that you would never need it? Or would you get it because some things are just beyond your control (like the weather, fire, etc.)


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## Xavier (Jan 19, 2007)

kbragg said:
			
		

> Exactly my thinking. OOOH thank you Lord! Perfect example of this is Sarah and Abraham! Thank you Lord for this! When God gave Abraham the promise what happened? They did a little "insurance" and tried to help God along. Sure they said they trusted God at His word, but just in case....here Abe, have it with my hand maiden! The Middle East is STILL a mess years later because of that! But anyway, Ishmeal (sp?) was the child of the flesh (they took it into their own hands "just in case") whereas Isaac was the child of the promise. If God has promised you a spouse, there should be no "just in case." Look what happened with Abraham and Sarah. Proof that God doesn't approve of the "just in cases" when it comes to His Word.


 
GREAT example!!! The story of Abraham, Sarah and Hagar. Genesis 15 and 16.


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## Browndilocks (Jan 19, 2007)

The older I get and the more things I acquire, the more I entertain the thought of a prenup. Yet I don't think I'll do it.  This is why it's important to be selective in who you date.  I think it's important to date people on your social, intellectual, spiritual *and* financial level.  Fact is - the only time a prenup is really an issue is when one has much more than the other.  If both people already have houses, cars, money, etc. the feeling to have to "protect" yourself wouldn't be prevalent.  Even from a Christian perspective, just because he's saved isn't enough IMO.  He needs to be on your level...

Maybe this sounds naive and corny but I envision my life being so much better if I were to get married.  So good in fact that what I attain within the marriage would overshadow anything I could have gotten on my own before I entered the relationship. That's just the type of faith I have.  

God forbid if anything happens, I'd probably want to get rid of at least half of everything anyway so I can throw things away and make room for a new life.


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## Southernbella. (Jan 19, 2007)

> Proof that God doesn't approve of the "just in cases" when it comes to His Word.



So I take that to mean that married couples shouldn't use birth control either. After all, God said to be fruitul and multiply. Birth control is a "just in case", right? Otherwise, we would just trust God not to allow us to get pregnant if it's not time, right?



> Maybe this sounds naive and corny but I envision my life being so much better if I were to get married. So good in fact that what I attain within the marriage would overshadow anything I could have gotten on my own before I entered the relationship. That's just the type of faith I have.



That's not naive or corny. It's very sweet.


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## envybeauty (Jan 19, 2007)

kbragg said:
			
		

> You said what I was thinking! The preacher who "had a feeling" not to go was listening to the Holy Spirit's unctioning. If the Holy Spirit is telling you "no" then a Prenup won't help. You either trust God or you dont. Plain and simple. Job lost everything he had and God not only restored him, but prospered Him. Why? Because he had faith that God would preserve him in the good times AND in the bad. Signing a prenup is like saying "Well God, it's a lot different nowadays, let me do this my way...I trust you, yes this man is from you, yes your ways or perfect...but here, let me help you out."





			
				kbragg said:
			
		

> It's the whole post modern mentality. The world entering the church. And lawyers? Jesus wasn't fond of them back then and God is the same yesterday, today and forever!
> http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=lawyers&qs_version=9
> 
> *I'm joking....kinda* *[/*quote]
> ...


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## kbragg (Jan 19, 2007)

nvybeauty said:
			
		

> kbragg said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## kbragg (Jan 19, 2007)

lauren450 said:
			
		

> So I take that to mean that married couples shouldn't use birth control either. After all, God said to be fruitul and multiply. Birth control is a "just in case", right? Otherwise, we would just trust God not to allow us to get pregnant if it's not time, right?


 
We stopped using Birth Control becase of the risks to my health and also because there's still a small chance of pregnancy in which the birth control would abort the baby. If God wants to plant a seed in me and bless me with a child I'm not going to attempt to prevent it as God Himself says that being a mother is the HIGHEST calling. That's another topic though 

As far as house, rent, car, health insurance goes, those are physical possesions NOT a covenant relationship. I'm not against a woman having her own money or savings. To me that's more of a stewartship issue. But if you need a prenup because you're afraid your future husband may try to stake a claim on your stuff if things go bad, maybe you should pray about marrying Him. Remember, God adds no sorrow to his blessings.

I guess my thinking is, this man is whom God chose for me and He honors His Word. God has yet to fail me. I know I'll be taken care of. If there's doubt, then IMO there should be no marriage. Faith eaves no room for doubt. Being responsible yes, doubt no.

Not trying to act like I'm all perfect or have attained or anything, just saying. In the end our opinions matter little. It's what the Word of God says. We are the Bride of Christ and if ANYBODY needed a prenup it was Him. Obviously He didn't get one so niether should we.

It's not an issue of reasoning or wrestling the scripture, it's about His Word, which is all that matters in the end.


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## Southernbella. (Jan 19, 2007)

> It's not an issue of reasoning or wrestling the scripture, it's about His Word, which is all that matters in the end.



I agree. But we make our own value judgements every day, and not all of those line up perfectly with the Word.

The divorce rate is what 50%? And even higher than that in the church, I think. We can and should have faith, but I don't begrudge people who look at the reality and use wisdom.


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## honeycomb719 (Jan 19, 2007)

brownsugababe said:
			
		

> I agree. If you put God first in your marriage and seek him in your decision to marry your mate then signing a prenupt is like say "I trust that this is the one you sent me Lord BUT"... If you truly TRUST the Lord in this life long commitment that you are making then there should be no doubt. Asking for a prenupt would be an insult to my mate and it would definitely be an insult to me if I was asked about one. *I also believe that a prenupt is just another way that you are speaking divorce into existence your situation(marriage) without even realizing it*. Just my opinion.





EXCELLENT POST!!! The bolded part I really agree with you here.


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## Shimmie (Jan 19, 2007)

Since when is marriage a 'Business Proposition"?  Where is the 'honor'? The trust?  The love?   

Obviously, one is marrying for all of the wrong reasons.   And while yes, we all DO have 'free will', why would I ever expect the 'free will' to be a negative choice to end our marriage?   Whatever happen to 'free will' to make it work until death us do part or into the Rapture, which ever comes first?  

I'm totally against it.  If God be God...trust Him...especially in and about marriage.  A pre-nup is nothing less than a written and signed covenant of expectation of the marriage to fail.  It's a spirit of fear, doubt and unbelief, that's clouding the faith of any couple who would choose such an option. It is the minset and the spirit of the world and the devil who rules it; not God's will or His design.   

They are literally standing before God and the minister and witnesses, saying, 'I Do Not Trust This Person That I Am Marrying and I Have Legally Drawn Up and have Signed a Contractual Agreement that guarantees it."  The are lying before God when they vow, 'until death do us part.' 

The world is sick.  Just plain sick.  Marriage isn't about "I doubt you".  It is about, I trust you; come what may, I trust you.  Even more, I trust God. 

The devil is a liar.  If he's convinced someone that the person that they are marrying is untrustworthy, then the marriage should not take place.  

*If* pre-nup is the case....you may as well call it a 'Shack Up'.   That's a guaranteed split up.


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## Divine Inspiration (Jan 19, 2007)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> Since when is marriage a 'Business Proposition"?  Where is the 'honor'? The trust?  The love?
> 
> Obviously, one is marrying for all of the wrong reasons.   And while yes, we all DO have 'free will', why would I ever expect the 'free will' to be a negative choice to end our marriage?   Whatever happen to 'free will' to make it work until death us do part or into the Rapture, which ever comes first?
> 
> ...



   

I was just thinking the bolded part earlier today.


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## Ayeshia (Jan 20, 2007)

so If one got screwed over in a first marriage hypothetically would you consider a pre nup for a 2nd marriage? that is if you were considering getting married the second time. I would say yes if I had a lot of family assets and wealth...and he did not. My aunt was recently divorced and she has to pay my uncle 50 grand a year in spousal support for the next 3 years and give 10% of her income from her catering business to him...he made a pretty good income but compared to her he didnt have cake. The situation was ugly but from their situation I learned. I look at it as insurance policy you hope not to use it but just in case....its there.


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## live2bgr8 (Jan 20, 2007)

I think a lot of you made wonderful points about this topic... I agree with the "no pre-nup line of thinking" for all of the reasons that have been mentioned...

But I want to add one thing: As a believer in Christ, I also believe that God owns every earthly posession that we have. Sometimes I struggle with this line of thinking, but it doesn't change it's validity... *God owns it all.* He just chooses who will steward what. In my mind, a pre-nup is saying to God... "I own it." It also says, "I don't trust that You will provide me with all the things I need to carry out *your will* for my life"...

Hard times come for both the believer and the non-believer... How we handle times of adversity is the difference between faith and unbelief...


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## alexstin (Jan 20, 2007)

kelouis75 said:
			
		

> I think a lot of you made wonderful points about this topic... I agree with the "no pre-nup line of thinking" for all of the reasons that have been mentioned...
> 
> But I want to add one thing: *As a believer in Christ, I also believe that God owns every earthly posession that we have. *Sometimes I struggle with this line of thinking, but it doesn't change it's validity... *God owns it all.* He just chooses who will steward what. In my mind, a pre-nup is saying to God... "I own it." It also says, "I don't trust that You will provide me with all the things I need to carry out *your will* for my life"...



Exactly!!! We don't own any of it. God allows us to be stewards over possessions. To bring a prenup into a marriage as if you own anything is shortsighted.  I believe a lot of believers have completely missed this point.


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## Shimmie (Jan 20, 2007)

alexstin said:
			
		

> Exactly!!! We don't own any of it. God allows us to be stewards over possessions. To bring a prenup into a marriage as if you own anything is shortsighted. I believe a lot of believers have completely missed this point.


 
Pastor Alexstin and Kelouis, I agree with you totally!!!  The word of God plainly says, that "He owns the cattle on a thousand hills."  And then some.   "The earth is the Lords' and the 'fullness' thereof and they and all that dwell therein; for He established it upon the floods...and upon the seas..."  (Psalm 24).    Although I paraphased the scripture, there's SOMETHING in this.  

If God could establish the earth (key word: *establish*) upon the waters and the floods....DEAR GOD, can He not and has He not *already* established a solid ground for marriages to thrive upon.   Did He not establish marriage...let alone the love that endures forever?  

I flatly refuse to hand over to the devil what God has so ordained.  In this life and in marriage God says He has *ordained* peace for us.  His word clearly offers no apologies for marriage for it is His solid foundation for order; marriage is such to Him that He has even proclaimed that He is married to us...His Church.    

My point is this.  I totally and absolutely refuse to go into marriage with an attitude of defeat.  I'm not marrying the devil, neither am I entering into a demonic covenant.   Our Marriage Covenant is with God, the Creator and the Keeper of all that He has established.   

And in Our Marriage, He is the Sheppard and the Bishop of our souls -- God keeps us in order.  

When we have an issue to settle or when we disagree, God is our wonderful Counselor; our Prince of Peace - He keeps peace in our marriage and in our heats for one another. 

To keep our marriage alive and well, He is Our Prince of Life.

In Our Marriage Bed, God is the Loving Bridegroom, and the Resurrection and the Life...He keeps our love-making alive and full and enriched.

For the solid foundation of Our Marriage, God is our Chief Cornerstone.

When oppositon and challenges arise, He is our Protector 

When we stand accused, He is Our Righteous Judge 

And when we have need of mercy, He is Our Advocate...

With allof this, who needs a pre-nup.   God is the Creator and Keeper of our Marriages...not the world, but He sits in Heaven loving us as His very own, keeping us One forever. 
*
Whom God has joined together...Let no man put asunder. *​
In God, pre-nups are disbanned, eternally.


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## Crackers Phinn (Jan 20, 2007)

lauren450 said:
			
		

> Now that I have children, I see things differently. I know God put my marriage together, and* I know He makes no mistakes. But people do.* If my husband ever went nuts and acted a fool and I needed to get myself and my kids out of the situation, how would I do that? *I trust God with everything in me, but I also trust the wisdom He's given me. *



      

I'm very pro- pre-nup. I don't like surprises.  A prenup forces both parties to disclose both assets AND negative credit issues that may affect the spouse.  Also, if your husband has a job that has financial liabilities, i.e., notary, bondsman, guarantor, sole proprietor or parnter/LLC where his assets can be seized a pre-nup can protect yours from going right along with his.  

I know that discussing pre-nups conjure visions of some old rich lecher marrying his fifth gold digging wife that he plans to dispose of once her expiration date has passed, but that is not the norm as what the document is meant to protect. A prenup is an insurance policy both during a marriage and god forbid if a divorce takes place. If financial disaster hits one spouse, then at least you have the assets of the other to fall back on. 

That's just my view.


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## Divine Inspiration (Jan 20, 2007)

JCoily said:
			
		

> A prenup forces both parties to disclose both assets AND negative credit issues that may affect the spouse.



I think this should be happening anyway. I think some people who are pro-prenup (not you, JC, I'm speaking in general) assume that those who are not are merrily going along with some mate without understanding all the implications. I'm a FIRM believer in pre-marital counseling & financial counseling before a marriage. In this instance, everybody has to come clean with everything so there are no secrets regarding assets, debts, etc.

I understand where you (JC), Lauren, and others are coming from, but like someone else mentioned, I think the difference in the way this is handled is the difference between a believer and an unbeliever. Faith permeates all areas of the life of a believer so that changes the way we handle our affairs. In the world, I can TOTALLY see why an "insurance policy" would be fitting for a marriage because people are CRAZY these days. However, we (believers) are to be in the world, not of the world, and so our lifestyles are to be exemplary of Godly living. Whether or not that includes a prenupt is clearly subjective, but I think the significance of faith colors the perspective.


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## honeycomb719 (Jan 20, 2007)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> Pastor Alexstin and Kelouis, I agree with you totally!!!  The word of God plainly says, that "He owns the cattle on a thousand hills."  And then some.   "The earth is the Lords' and the 'fullness' thereof and they and all that dwell therein; for He established it upon the floods...and upon the seas..."  (Psalm 24).    Although I paraphased the scripture, there's SOMETHING in this.
> 
> If God could establish the earth (key word: *establish*) upon the waters and the floods....DEAR GOD, can He not and has He not *already* established a solid ground for marriages to thrive upon.   Did He not establish marriage...let alone the love that endures forever?
> 
> ...






(_In my BEST church deacon voice_) WELL!!


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## secretdiamond (Jan 20, 2007)

just wanted to say that this a great discussion on both sides.


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## Shimmie (Jan 20, 2007)

Divine Inspiration said:
			
		

> I think this should be happening anyway. I think some people who are pro-prenup (not you, JC, I'm speaking in general) assume that those who are not are merrily going along with some mate without understanding all the implications. I'm a FIRM believer in pre-marital counseling & financial counseling before a marriage. In this instance, everybody has to come clean with everything so there are no secrets regarding assets, debts, etc.
> 
> I understand where you (JC), Lauren, and others are coming from, but like someone else mentioned, I think the difference in the way this is handled is the difference between a believer and an unbeliever. Faith permeates all areas of the life of a believer so that changes the way we handle our affairs. In the world, I can TOTALLY see why an "insurance policy" would be fitting for a marriage because people are CRAZY these days. However, we (believers) are to be in the world, not of the world, and so our lifestyles are to be exemplary of Godly living. Whether or not that includes a prenupt is clearly subjective, but I think the significance of faith colors the perspective.


 
This is beautifully shared; for you've covered both sides in wonderful fairness.  I totally understand the 'world's' view and I don't blame them; but it's sad when the Church yields and joins the world's thinking and 'fear' patterns.   They (the world and many Christians) don't have the experience of 'knowing' God and all that He is.  Our actions and decisions in life prove what we believe.   And while I don't know ALL that He is, I know more than enough to realize that the world's way has proven nothing to me over His and it never will.   

I 'know' what's out there.  I know the fools; I was married to a fool -- indeed I was -- and what I had, he didn't get.  As for other fools, I see the mess they create and do everyday.   I'm praying for issues that are almost 'unheard of' that people are experiencing.   But in all of this...God overrides *every* issue, circumstance and excuse not to trust Him.   Pre-nup says, "Okay, I believe, but I still don't trust."  

For me personally, I cannot insult my husband and most of all God, to go to the extent of legalizing that I have a lack of faith in either of them.


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## Supergirl (Jan 20, 2007)

kbragg said:
			
		

> We stopped using Birth Control becase of the risks to my health and also because there's still a small chance of pregnancy in which the birth control would abort the baby. If God wants to plant a seed in me and bless me with a child I'm not going to attempt to prevent it as God Himself says that being a mother is the HIGHEST calling. That's another topic though
> 
> As far as house, rent, car, health insurance goes, those are physical possesions NOT a *covenant* relationship. I'm not against a woman having her own money or savings. To me that's more of a stewartship issue. But if you need a prenup because you're afraid your future husband may try to stake a claim on your stuff if things go bad, maybe you should pray about marrying Him. Remember, God adds no sorrow to his blessings.
> 
> ...



There ya go!  Ding ding ding--you said the KEY word:  _Covenant_!  A prenup turns it into a _contract_.


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## Shimmie (Jan 20, 2007)

honeycomb719 said:
			
		

> (_In my BEST church deacon voice_) WELL!!


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## live2bgr8 (Jan 20, 2007)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> Pastor Alexstin and Kelouis, I agree with you totally!!! The word of God plainly says, that "He owns the cattle on a thousand hills." And then some. "The earth is the Lords' and the 'fullness' thereof and they and all that dwell therein; for He established it upon the floods...and upon the seas..." (Psalm 24). Although I paraphased the scripture, there's SOMETHING in this.
> 
> If God could establish the earth (key word: *establish*) upon the waters and the floods....DEAR GOD, can He not and has He not *already* established a solid ground for marriages to thrive upon. Did He not establish marriage...let alone the love that endures forever?
> 
> ...


Amen, Shimmie!


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## Shimmie (Jan 20, 2007)

kelouis75 said:
			
		

> Amen, Shimmie!


  Hey Darlin'...Hugs to you and your handsome men.  

As for my post... We get what we 'pray' for...


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## kbragg (Jan 21, 2007)

honeycomb719 said:
			
		

> (_In my BEST church deacon voice_) WELL!!


 
(In my best Church Mother voice)YEEESSSAAAH! Um hmm, that's right! Go'on tell it!Yep, that's it right there! That's the Word! Tell da troof! 

Did you grow up Baptist too? Or AME? I grew up both (my Grandma played the piano)


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## PaperClip (Jan 21, 2007)

FYI, Ladies: I didn't just drop a heavy topic and hit the road. I've been processing your responses in my head and heart. Compelling responses from both sides of the conversation.


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## cocoberry10 (Jan 21, 2007)

Okay, I have read through the responses, and decided to address both perspectives on the topic (since I feel that I can see both sides).  At first, I wasn't going to respond, but after consulting the Lord, I felt that shedding some light on this topic would give a different perspective. 

*As a Christian woman and a lawyer to be* (I'm studying for the bar now),here's my take on the subject. And no, these don't make me a walking oxymoron.

Overall, I don't personally like prenups.  However, I'm not completely against them, and I will consult the Lord if and when the time comes for me.  I'm still in my 20's now.  I do believe that they can have a purpose, and yes, I don't think that in all circumstances they are unGodly or unbelieving.  Like doctors and lawyers, they do have their place in this world.  They can be like a will, which I don't think most Christians believe is unGodly.

I believe that before deciding whether to get a prenup, the first place you must always go is to the Lord (He is the highest counselor, higher than any lawyer, psychiatrist, minister, etc.).

I believe Proverbs is the greatest book in the bible to discuss the importance of discernment and preparation, and I also personally find that book to be a key to how we as Christians should be wise stewards in the financial area, and in some instances, I do believe this can include prenuptial agreements.

Prenuptial agreements aren't always Black and White.  They don't have to always be a "what's mine is mine, and what's yours is yours situation."  It can be partial, like the example I will give below, so that any assets you attain in the marriage would be fair game for either spouse if, God forbid, you do divorce.

*Here's an example: *If you were marrying someone, and you had a family business, or a family home (i.e. property, a summer home, etc.), those can be instances where a prenuptial agreement can be an important way to protect not just your personal interest, but the interest of your blood relatives and children.  Let's say your parents left you a summer home when they died, and later you divorce your spouse.  Technically, w/o a prenup, your spouse can try to lay claim to this, even if it's a "family" home (or at least your interest in the house).  The same is true for family businesses.  I'm exaggerating, but there are instances like this.

However, prenups can be a disaster too, and I think this is what many of you are referring to.  Look at the many people who entered a marriage in their 20's with little or no assets, and one spouse gets extremely wealthy, and when they divorce, the prenup says "go our separate ways" and one spouse ends up with little or nothing and the other ends up with a lot.  However, family courts CAN in some instances re-interpret even prenuptial agreements, b/c they know that people are doing this, and *UNLIKE COVENANTS,**CONTRACTS CAN BE VOIDED IF THEY ARE TOO UNFAIR (they aren't always etched in stone)*! 

I think this matters, b/c it's important to know this.  Of course *as Christians we MUST ALWAYS TRUST GOD*.  However, God has blessed us with various means to protect ourselves from harm, things He has placed on this earth, and I'm not even specifically saying that's a prenuptial agreement, but He has given us "tangible" resources to work with.  

God will always protect us as someone said, and I have seen situations where people were left with nothing, and yes, God can rebuild us in our valley times (Tyler Perry's "Why Did I Get Married?" addressed this topic in a comical way).  However, I also believe that God does want us to be intelligent.  I believe that God works through us, and gives us these resources.  In some instances, that will mean not marrying a person.  In others it may mean taking other precautionary steps.  It may not even be your spouse, it could be others you have to be guarded against (like relatives.  sad but true).

I have to use this as an analogy (and it's gonna be a sensitive one).

There are unfortunately a lot of women (Christian and non-Christian) who find themselves infected with diseases like AIDS or other incurable STD's from husbands they believed were faithful, good men. They really believed that they were safe, and in some instances (I know not in all  ), the women had no idea, or very little.  God has blessed us with various ways to know how the disease is spread and how to protect ourselves, and stay safe, and that can (and has) protected some women.  God does want us to be safe and protected from the ills of this world.  *Unfortunately, we live in a fallen world, and the consequences of that will manifest in our lives at times*.  I do believe God always wants us to do all things with our eyes wide open, so first, second, and always, consult, consult, consult your Heavenly Father!

Sorry this post is soooooooooo long, but I just had to give light to both sides, b/c I see them both so well, and I felt that I could minister on this topic!

Last little note: There are other ways to protect assets besides prenups.  It's just one channel!


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## HoneyDew (Jan 21, 2007)

I say YAY!

I come to the table with assets, as well as he does. I have worked too hard for my home and my money and he has, too.

Too many people break up and have to deal with the financial things. Prenups take the guess work out of things.

I do think I would like the option of being able to change the agreement as we see fit - say once we have kids or maybe have more/less kids than we expected, or if finances change for one or both of us.


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## Shimmie (Jan 21, 2007)

cocoberry10 said:
			
		

> Okay, I have read through the responses, and decided to address both perspectives on the topic (since I feel that I can see both sides). At first, I wasn't going to respond, but after consulting the Lord, I felt that shedding some light on this topic would give a different perspective.
> 
> *As a Christian woman and a lawyer to be* (I'm studying for the bar now),here's my take on the subject. And no, these don't make me a walking oxymoron.
> 
> ...


 
You're going to make an excellent attorney, "Coco".   You'll be the one to set the standard of standards....  You'll bring honor where dishonor has reigned far too long.   

And sweet little sister, "Coco", please don't think that for one moment that I don't hear what you and the others have shared.   I do hear you loud and clear.  I truly do. 

It saddens me that Marriage has arrived to the point of "...in the event of divorce."    It's just plain sad.   And sadder still that it's being accepted with open arms, instead of having a 'fixed' faith, that not all have to fail... and surely not mine; for it is not my marriage, but the Lord's.    

While some may call it 'wisdom' and facing reality, the true reality is this...'we've given up on Marriage before entering into it, and on one another.  We've rendered the 'baby' still born...and others have already set up the appointment for an abortion...D&C - a surrendered dialation of the marriage womb and the cutting of an embryo not yet lived.    

Hence, the world's mindset...hence the world's solution.  And of course, God allows it out of His rich mercy for He knows that we have weakened and surrendered to the world and satan's plan to kill, steal and to destroy...another of His gifts to us, the beauty and the sanctity of "Marriage" which God ordained and created. 

Indeed one does have to pray and not for guidance of a mate selection... but a prayer of forgiveness for losing faith.   

The devil is a liar "Christians".   Stand up to him ... not with him.  All of this power that we have been given against the enemy and yet we falter and die.   Dare him to set foot into your homes and lives.  Dare him to touch what God has so freely given to you.   Keep him in his place which is under your feet.  God never lied...when He said none which are His will be plucked out of His hands.   

Surrender your marriage placed into God's hands for Him to keep, as the apple of His eye.  He never lied and He never will.   God will sustain and protect a marriage before He would allow the devil to have victory in tearing it apart.  

Why give up?  Why give up on something so worth fighting for and especially when we've already been given the weapons to not only fight, but win.   Why give up?  Why give up the way satan has always tried to make us as Blacks do for everything we've held dear...family, marriage, education, careers, and just plain respect and due justice?   Each step we've taken foreward, the devil has always tried to back us down, rendering 'us' to think, we may as well give up.   

Well, not here...As for me and my House, we will serve the Lord...If God be God...serve Him...if baal be god, serve him.

Upon this Rock, I will build my house and not on sinking sand... In Jesus' name...Amen.


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## live2bgr8 (Jan 22, 2007)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> Hey Darlin'...Hugs to you and your handsome men.
> 
> As for my post... We get what we 'pray' for...


 
I hear you! Thanks about the handsome men.  Hugs to you and your beautiful family as well!


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## firecracker (Jan 23, 2007)

nvybeauty said:
			
		

> I do not believe that taking measures to protect yourself from future harm is any offense to God. No more than getting immunizations, insurance, etc. God is there, here, everywhere, yes, but He also placed means/methods on earth for us to protect ourselves as well.


 
Your right on point.  Allz I gotta say is keep living.  I doubt if any 40plus self sufficient woman would readly go into a marriage today without considering the future ramifications of not protectings oneself. 
It simply has nothing to do with faith in God. 
It's about securing ones future with or without a spouse.  Insurance is around for a reason.  I doubt that God wants us uninsured period point blank!  I am not bright eyes and bushy tailed by far.


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## Xavier (Jan 23, 2007)

firecracker said:
			
		

> It simply has nothing to do with faith in God.


 
I beg to differ. As a Christian women MOST if NOT EVERYTHING in my life, has to do with my faith in God.


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## BlkManWithSomeSense (Jan 23, 2007)

I don't believe in pre nups. I believe in absolute trust in marriage AND I would like to think that I would choose someone with some good sense even if things didn't go well. I don't knock anyone for their use of pre nups but it's not for me. I will not let the times we live in dilute my full and unequivocal endorsement of marriage. I own a business and I would lose a great deal of money if I married and divorced but rather than focus on the possibility of failure, I would rather redirect my focus on insuring that I am marrying the 'right' person, for the right reasons and it's the right thing to do.

Marriage and life come with no guarantees. How is a pre nup God's 'gift' to us?.. because it exists? Arsenic exists too. Do we believe in God with one foot in the door? Why are the only things we have unwavering faith tend to be the things we have direct control? Marriage requires us to have as much faith in our significant others as we do in ourselves. If you can't do that with them then it may be time to reevaluate. You can share your deepest vulnerabilities, body and soul with your spouse and even entrust your life with them but uh oh... but when it comes to the assets thats a big no no? I'm sorry but I cannot subscribe to that notion. I'm not so attached to material wealth to let it interrupt my bond and spirituality.

How would I look standing before God on my judgement day and trying to explain that the pre nup was ' just business' yet I took the marital vows in his holy name.


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## Sweet C (Jan 23, 2007)

BlkManWithSomeSense said:
			
		

> I don't believe in pre nups. I believe in absolute trust in marriage AND I would like to think that I would choose someone with some good sense even if things didn't go well. I don't knock anyone for their use of pre nups but it's not for me. I will not let the times we live in dilute my full and unequivocal endorsement of marriage. I own a business and I would lose a great deal of money if I married and divorced but rather than focus on the possibility of failure, I would rather redirect my focus on insuring that I am marrying the 'right' person, for the right reasons and it's the right thing to do.
> 
> Marriage and life come with no guarantees. How is a pre nup God's 'gift' to us?.. because it exists? Arsenic exists too. Do we believe in God with one foot in the door? Why are the only things we have unwavering faith tend to be the things we have direct control? Marriage requires us to have as much faith in our significant others as we do in ourselves. If you can't do that with them then it may be time to reevaluate. You can share your deepest vulnerabilities, body and soul with your spouse and even entrust your life with them but uh oh... but when it comes to the assets thats a big no no? I'm sorry but I cannot subscribe to that notion. I'm not so attached to material wealth to let it interrupt my bond and spirituality.
> 
> How would I look standing before God on my judgement day and trying to explain that the pre nup was ' just business' yet I took the marital vows in his holy name.


 
Amen brother!!!


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## dimpalz (Jan 23, 2007)

Posters are saying God would not send you a mate who is less than perfect but you're forgetting the most important thing. We all have free will and everyone is capable of succumbing to temptations. Unless you're taking the stance that you would NEVER divorce your spouse even if he (she) broke all of your wedding vows then it is possible that you could one day divorce that person. 

Even God can only see so far, he doesn't know when someone is likely to choose a different path, he can only send to you what is perfect at the time. Sure YOU may never stray from your husband and YOU may have unwavering faith in God but you can't say that for your spouse, you can't say that for any other person. So now you put all your faith in this person, because although your union is under God you are bound to them, you didn't suggest  a prenup, your spouse has been lead astray and now wants a divorce and you have nothing. Your faith may bring you up again but it wont be an easy ride. 

This doesnt even take into account any family possessions of value because it's not just you who is losing out. I don't truly know where I stand on this. If I have serious assets by the time I'm ready to marry I'll more than likely consider it. I will have been looking after me long before my husband comes along and I wont be stopping just because he's arrived.


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## Meli (Jan 23, 2007)

I say yes to a prenup.  Suppose your mate wants to open up a business, makes a bad business judgment...signs a personal guaranty, what do you you have to protect yourself.  Signing a prenup can guard against a creditor taking your house.  Saying yes to a prenup is not saying no to whom God chose for you, its just saying no to the possibility of bad decisions that yield bad results.  No one is perfect and people make bad decisions sometimes.  Since this is true, why can't a person protect themselves by signing a prenup.  In addition, without a prenup, assets could end up in the hands of your spouse's children from a previous marriage instead of your own kids in the event you die.


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## BlkManWithSomeSense (Jan 23, 2007)

I'm sure the high rates of divorce and absence of morals today have greatly affected the decision for people to get a pre nup. Fear is very influential. I wont argue that it makes good business sense to get one but I cant do it. I accept the consequences of my actions and if the marriage fails then I accept the fallout. I think it's ironic that I would block a divorcing spouse appropriate access to my assets but I once entrusted her with my life and MY assets on a daily basis. 

I could not give my all to the marriage if I knew I had a 'back door'. Taking such precautions does affect your mentality towards the relationship.  Marriage requires great sacrifice and it is one of life's biggest 'risks'. However that risk begets the greatest rewards if the marriage works out. I guess I'm just too compassionate for this 'take no prisoners and cover your tail' world . 

You know the old saying, 'Don't Gamble what you're not willing to lose'. If you worry more about your assets than your marriage (or it's failure), then it's doomed from the start because you are already anticipating it's failure. Plant the seed. Reap what you sow.....JMO of course.


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## Shimmie (Jan 23, 2007)

dimpalz said:
			
		

> Posters are saying God would not send you a mate who is less than perfect but you're forgetting the most important thing. We all have free will and everyone is capable of succumbing to temptations. Unless you're taking the stance that you would NEVER divorce your spouse even if he (she) broke all of your wedding vows then it is possible that you could one day divorce that person.
> 
> *Even God can only see so far, he doesn't know when someone is likely to choose a different path, he can only send to you what is perfect at the time.*
> 
> ...


HUH!????!  Oh Dear!  Oh Dear, Dear, Dear!    

Sweetheart, since when is God limited?   Let me answer before the devil and his marbles begin to roll backwards....  

Never! God is and has and always will be ALL knowing.  It is we as humans who are limited...not God.  

Oohhhh, precious one... (((( hugs ))))


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## dimpalz (Jan 23, 2007)

Okay so if that's true, and your husband chooses the wrong path (because God know's he will), then he wasn't right for you and you should have gotten a prenup drawn up. I guess that's even more reason to get one. Sure God sent him but you should know it may not be forever anyway.

I'd much prefer to believe God can't see exactly where man will be lead astray. It's much more comforting than believing he knows it wont be good for you but still lead you there anyway.


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## michc (Jan 23, 2007)

dimpalz said:
			
		

> Okay so if that's true, and your husband chooses the wrong path (because God know's he will), then he wasn't right for you and you should have gotten a prenup drawn up. I guess that's even more reason to get one. Sure God sent him but you should know it may not be forever anyway.
> 
> I'd much prefer to believe God can't see exactly where man will be lead astray. It's much more comforting than believing he knows it wont be good for you but still lead you there anyway.



The person God sends you *is* perfect for you. But it doesn't end there -as long as that person walks according to God's will for his life then the two of you will stay together and have a lasting fulfilling relationship. 

BUT God does not impose His will on ours and it's when we up and decide to do things our way, that things go wrong. So if your husband that God picked for you decides that he isn't doing things God's way anymore and is gonna have affairs, abuse his wife, abuse his 'Headship' etc etc then, yes, in comes the Devil to cause trouble and ultimately destroy the marriage.

God knows exactly what's going to happen, doesn't mean that's the way He intended it or orchestrated it.


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## firecracker (Jan 23, 2007)

brownsugababe said:
			
		

> I beg to differ. As a Christian women MOST if NOT EVERYTHING in my life, has to do with my faith in God.


 
I understand and Christians come in all shapes and sizes.  God loves us all no greater or less.  
I have unmitigated faith in God.  He gave me wisdom and the gift of discernment in regards to taking care of myself and looking out for my future in case anything goes wrong. 
A prenup is insurance to me right along with my long term disability, life, cancer, accident, fire, home insurance which is key to protecting my income and any assets in case something unexpected happens in life.


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## cocoberry10 (Jan 23, 2007)

BlkManWithSomeSense said:
			
		

> I don't believe in pre nups. I believe in absolute trust in marriage AND I would like to think that I would choose someone with some good sense even if things didn't go well. I don't knock anyone for their use of pre nups but it's not for me. I will not let the times we live in dilute my full and unequivocal endorsement of marriage. I own a business and I would lose a great deal of money if I married and divorced but rather than focus on the possibility of failure, I would rather redirect my focus on insuring that I am marrying the 'right' person, for the right reasons and it's the right thing to do.
> 
> Marriage and life come with no guarantees. How is a pre nup God's 'gift' to us?.. because it exists? Arsenic exists too. Do we believe in God with one foot in the door? Why are the only things we have unwavering faith tend to be the things we have direct control? Marriage requires us to have as much faith in our significant others as we do in ourselves. If you can't do that with them then it may be time to reevaluate. You can share your deepest vulnerabilities, body and soul with your spouse and even entrust your life with them but uh oh... but when it comes to the assets thats a big no no? I'm sorry but I cannot subscribe to that notion. I'm not so attached to material wealth to let it interrupt my bond and spirituality.
> 
> How would I look standing before God on my judgement day and trying to explain that the pre nup was ' just business' yet I took the marital vows in his holy name.



Great post, as always!


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## cocoberry10 (Jan 23, 2007)

BlkManWithSomeSense said:
			
		

> *Arsenic exists too *



              

I guess that's true!


----------



## PaperClip (Jan 23, 2007)

dimpalz said:
			
		

> Even God can only see so far,


 
Whoa! Flag on the play! As I'm on the sidelines watching this robust and spirited discussion, I had to step on the field and make a quick break for station identification:

GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING! GOD IS OMNICIENT! He is ALL-KNOWING! He knows the end from the beginning. He even knows what we're gonna do. He just DOESN'T MAKE US do it = free will. 

Ok...back on topic.... A couple of points: I would say pre-nups come out of a place of fear, not a place of failure. One should not marry if there is a fear of loss. Loss of anything, including life. Jesus loved us so much that He gave His life for us.... Now I can't give my life for my husband's salvation per se, but I should at least be willing to do so out of my love for him, yes?

(This is me thinking out loud....)


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## PaperClip (Jan 23, 2007)

BlkManWithSomeSense said:
			
		

> I'm sure the high rates of divorce and absence of morals today have greatly affected the decision for people to get a pre nup. Fear is very influential. I wont argue that it makes good business sense to get one but I cant do it. I accept the consequences of my actions and if the marriage fails then I accept the fallout. I think it's ironic that I would block a divorcing spouse appropriate access to my assets but I once entrusted her with my life and MY assets on a daily basis.
> 
> *I could not give my all to the marriage if I knew I had a 'back door'.* Taking such precautions does affect your mentality towards the relationship. Marriage requires great sacrifice and it is one of life's biggest 'risks'. However that risk begets the greatest rewards if the marriage works out. I guess I'm just too compassionate for this 'take no prisoners and cover your tail' world .
> 
> You know the old saying, 'Don't Gamble what you're not willing to lose'. If you worry more about your assets than your marriage (or it's failure), then it's doomed from the start because you are already anticipating it's failure. Plant the seed. Reap what you sow.....JMO of course.


 
I think a pre-nup is ONLY a "financial" back door.... meaning that the assests are protected, not the things of the body, soul, and spirit. It does not address the many other things that could break up a marriage, e.g., infidelity, financial mismanagement, etc. Even the Bible talks about a man who does not take care of a family is considered worse than an infidel: 1 Timothy 5:8 "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."
An infidel is defined as an unbeliever. Now would God have us married to one who is/acts as an unbeliever? And if not, should one suffer financial harm/damage because of someone else's actions? 

I think this topic and subsequent conversation is kind of telling as to how closely we associate material things with the marriage vows/sanctity of marriage. 

(per my earlier posts, I probably sound confusing/conflicted. Don't be alarmed. It's only me in the thought process!)


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## Xavier (Jan 23, 2007)

For those who support prenupts. My question is... are you going to include your pastor in this prenuptal discussion during pre-marriage counseling? Also I would be curious to see how he/she would support the whole prenupt issue on both sides of the argument. Also what does your church believe when it comes to this topic? Just something else to ponder.


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## Shimmie (Jan 23, 2007)

brownsugababe said:
			
		

> For those who support prenupts. My question is... are you going to include your pastor in this prenuptal discussion during pre-marriage counseling? Also I would be curious to see how he/she would support the whole prenupt issue on both sides of the argument. Also what does your church believe when it comes to this topic? Just something else to ponder.


Good point...however there are Pastors with pre-nups...and many sitting in the pews have the same issues.   

Soooo, it comes back to trusting God and the one to whom we've married.  It's interesting how material gain, trumps trust.


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## BlkManWithSomeSense (Jan 23, 2007)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> Good point...however there are Pastors with pre-nups...and many sitting in the pews have the same issues.
> 
> Soooo, it comes back to trusting God and the one to whom we've married. It's interesting how material gain, trumps trust.


 
Very True. Sometimes material gain is a mixed blessing.


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## Divine Inspiration (Jan 23, 2007)

Wow!! I need to start getting up earlier...this thread has been jumpin'! 

BMWSS, WOW!! Loved both of your posts. Beautiful sentiments of a strong black man...we have to INSIST that marriage be the sacred institution it is. I applaud you not allowing the world to defile that which God has set aside.  

I was going to address the comment about God not being all knowing but after more scrolling, everyone has said what I would have said...and very well, I might add. 



			
				RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> I think a pre-nup is ONLY a "financial" back door.... meaning that the assests are protected, not the things of the body, soul, and spirit. It does not address the many other things that could break up a marriage, e.g., infidelity, financial mismanagement, etc.



Actually, there are prenups that address other things. An attorney can add a clause about everything from weight to child rearing. 

I noticed you mentioned the other parts of the person not being protected, and that again makes me think of the thread where women were planning not to have unprotected sex with their husbands for fear of contracting a disease. My question (and not just to you RR, but in general) is when does it stop? When do you (general) stop allowing fear to pervade every area of your life and starting LIVING? God has not given us a spirit of fear. He came so that we might have life and have it more abundantly. 

I guess my confusion is why people with this mindset would even get married. If trust issues are THAT prominent that you want a prenup, want to use condoms to prevent disease, and who knows what else, is that REALLY a marriage? Or is that two people protecting themselves from each other but living together?? 

I understand the need to be cautious, but I also believe that FEAR can sap life & faith out of any and everything if it's unchecked.


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## Lusa (Jan 23, 2007)

brownsugababe said:
			
		

> For those who support prenupts. My question is... are you going to include your pastor in this prenuptal discussion during pre-marriage counseling? Also I would be curious to see how he/she would support the whole prenupt issue on both sides of the argument. Also what does your church believe when it comes to this topic? Just something else to ponder.


 
If I was contemplating having a pre-nuptial agreement while going through marital counseling and the subject came up I would be more than happy to discuss it. I personally do not see it as reflection on my faith or lack thereof. If I had valuable assets that I wanted to "insure" I would do it in a heart beat. My pre-nup wouldn't get into things about how often we would have sex, how many kids, how much for each year of marriage, that's hollywood. 

For me it's this, if I am coming into this marriage with a million dollars in the stocks, bonds, property etc and you're coming in with a suitcase. There's no way in heck you're gonna be walking out with half of EVERYTHING I had *initially* if the marriage collapses!!!


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## PaperClip (Jan 23, 2007)

Divine Inspiration said:
			
		

> I noticed you mentioned the other parts of the person not being protected, and that again makes me think of the thread where women were planning not to have unprotected sex with their husbands for fear of contracting a disease. My question (and not just to you RR, but in general) is when does it stop? When do you (general) stop allowing fear to pervade every area of your life and starting LIVING? God has not given us a spirit of fear. He came so that we might have life and have it more abundantly.


 
I really don't know where it stops.... You're right about God not giving us the spirit of fear, though. That's the word!


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## Divine Inspiration (Jan 23, 2007)

Alright...a few questions for those in favor...

A) Will you be having unprotected sex with your husband?

B) Are you planning to share bank accounts with your husband?

C) Will you leave your children alone with your husband while you are away?


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## cocoberry10 (Jan 23, 2007)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> Good point...*however there are Pastors with pre-nups...and many sitting in the pews have the same issues*.
> 
> Soooo, it comes back to trusting God and the one to whom we've married.  It's interesting how material gain, trumps trust.



Are any of these mega-pastors (pastors of mega churches) we might know.  I'm a little curious.  Not trying to be a gossipmonger , but it would be interesting to know.


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## PaperClip (Jan 23, 2007)

cocoberry10 said:
			
		

> Are any of these mega-pastors (pastors of mega churches) we might know. I'm a little curious. Not trying to be a gossipmonger , but it would be interesting to know.


 
I am thinking that my pastor and his wife probably do not have a pre-nup, because when they got married, she was 18 years old and they've been married 26 years. He was relatively young as well so it wasn't like there was much brought to the table between them.

But for those that married later in life and may have been more established and have certain things they want to protect, I mean hey, pastors are human, too. (Shrug)


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## cocoberry10 (Jan 23, 2007)

Divine Inspiration said:
			
		

> Alright...a few questions for those in favor...
> 
> A) Will you be having unprotected sex with your husband?
> 
> ...



*For those of you who do plan on pre-nups, I have no personal judgment against you for them, but as for me...*
*I don't personally believe in pre-nups*, but refer to my post #52 as some of the reasons why some may believe in them (I'm giving the legal perspective as a future lawyer and all ).

*BUT...Why I as a future lawyer, don't personally believe in a pre-nup is this:*

I know that all I have, God has given me (and what I don't have he will give me).

My parents have been married for almost 35 years.  My dad is also a lawyer, but he doesn't actively practice.  He's got a business and is also one of the highest level corporate execs at one of the largest corps in the world.  HOWEVER, I have seen my parents love and honor each other.  NO PRENUP!  Does that mean their marriage has been perfect.  Noooooooo.  But they have God, and we all have each other, and God uses us to build one another up, not destroy each other.  I know that neither of my parents is out to get the other, but if that ever changed, I know that God does restore.

My marriage may not be as fortunate as my parents (if I ever get married, which only God knows this ).  I may end up *Divorced * :fallenang      .  Again, *ONLY GOD KNOWS THIS*.

But, in my limited knowledge of my life and future...*I DO KNOW THIS.  What God has given me once, HE CAN GIVE ME AGAIN.  *It would be extremely hard and difficult to lose all the things I've worked hard for (and I've worked hard, y'all).  *BUT, IT WOULD BE THE HARDEST FOR ME TO TO EXPLAIN WHY I COULDN'T TRUST GOD*.  Truthfully, trusting God means not knowing the future, and risking that things will not be easy, smooth or okay.  That's the risk you take.  But like I said in post #52, a pre-nup is a contract.  *And as a future lawyer, we learn in contracts class, that CONTRACTS ARE VOIDABLE*.  But I have something stronger with God.  I HAVE AN UNBREAKABLE COVENANT! So, even those of you that get pre-nups, know that courts strike them down and reinterpret them all the time (rare, but yes, it can happen, especially if it seems really unfair ).  See, the world's ways aren't so fair  .

For me, not getting a prenup has NOTHING to do with my future husband.  Just like my choice not to engage in sex right now is not really about my husband.  It's about my trust in my Heavenly Father.

And a great example of *a wonderful man who trusted God AND LOST EVERYTHING is JOB*.  Job was *"blameless" *in all that he did, but God still allowed the devil to have his way with Job.  But in the end, I know that God is a restorer.  So there's nothing that can be taken away from me, that I can't get back...twofold, threefold, sevenfold.

Trust me, I have my days where I worry about things like this, and I have doubts.  But I know that no matter who (or what ) kind of man I marry, even as cautious and good minded as I think I am, God will always be there for me.

As someone said earlier, God gives us free will.  And that means you have every right to do the things that you feel will protect you.  But as for me, I can't know my future, and I don't know the awful turmoil that WILL come into my life (b/c living in a fallen world means, dealing with the world's ways).  But no matter what, there is a God, and I know He is amazing!


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## Shimmie (Jan 23, 2007)

cocoberry10 said:
			
		

> Are any of these mega-pastors (pastors of mega churches) we might know. I'm a little curious. Not trying to be a gossipmonger , but it would be interesting to know.


 
Errrrbody has em....   Uh-huh


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## cocoberry10 (Jan 23, 2007)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> Errrrbody has em....   Uh-huh



Does this list include:

TD Jakes?
Creflo?
Joel Osteen?
Paula White?  

I've gotta know...........................

I guess that's why all the prosperity teaching.


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## Crackers Phinn (Jan 23, 2007)

cocoberry10 said:
			
		

> Does this list include:
> 
> TD Jakes?
> *Creflo?*
> ...



Creflo probably brought pre-nup agreements on dates!

"Any monies that party 1 and party 2 individually bring on date will pay for each parties food eaten on said date. If party 2 orders Lobster and can't pay for lobster, then party 1 will offer to provide (without prejudice) gloves for party 2 to wash dishes to pay for party 2's meal."

 

What?


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## michc (Jan 23, 2007)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> Errrrbody has em....  Uh-huh



   What?? You are joking??? I am so naive as to what's going on in the world....


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## cocoberry10 (Jan 23, 2007)

JCoily said:
			
		

> Creflo probably brought pre-nup agreements on dates!
> 
> "Any monies that party 1 and party 2 individually bring on date will pay for each parties food eaten on said date. If party 2 orders Lobster and can't pay for lobster, then party 1 will offer to provide (without prejudice) gloves for party 2 to wash dishes to pay for party 2's meal."
> 
> ...



And this is exactly why I go back to my earlier post and say again...



			
				cocoberry10 said:
			
		

> But, in my limited knowledge of my life and future...*I DO KNOW THIS.  What God has given me once, HE CAN GIVE ME AGAIN.  * But no matter what, there is a God, and I know He is amazing!


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## Shimmie (Jan 23, 2007)

cocoberry10 said:
			
		

> Does this list include:
> 
> TD Jakes?
> Creflo?
> ...


 
  Oh my goodness.   You know what, Coco, I have been so UNABLE to have fun today.  I was at work ... working ... which I don't normally do    Nawww - Uhhhhh   

AND when I replied  "Errrr body" I was just being 'funny'... and I couldn't come back right away to finish my post.

*HOWEVER...* think about it.  JCoily has made a point here.  These men do NOT wish to lose their MeGa churches.  Come on and look at the news of the 'mighty fallen'.   Ummmmm, wifey can do some pottie wiiping big time.  

Pre-nups, maybe not...but Interval-Post Nups, I would not be surprised.   They were ALL broke when they were married.  

Paula....ummm,   I mean Randy, isn't about to lose all that she... I mean "he' has gained.  

I would hope that none of the above mentioned do, but I do know of 'younger' ministers entering into marriage, who are being ADVISED to do such --- Ummmm, Yep   They are being advised by clergy (some clergy -- not all) to do a pre-nup.   I've heard it come 'across' the pulpilt so many times.   I'll tell you why.  There are many woman (fast ones) who are 'marrying' men for prestige, not so much the love, but as for what he can give her financially.   Sad, just sad... 

I just want to love and trust my husband.  God will honor that.   

Love you, Darlin'.... I'm sorry for teasing you.


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## PaperClip (Jan 23, 2007)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> *HOWEVER...* think about it. JCoily has made a point here. These men do NOT wish to lose their MeGa churches. Come on and look at the news of the 'mighty fallen'. Ummmmm, wifey can do some pottie wiiping big time.
> 
> Pre-nups, maybe not...but Interval-Post Nups, I would not be surprised. They were ALL broke when they were married.
> 
> ...


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## Shimmie (Jan 23, 2007)

JCoily said:
			
		

> *Creflo probably brought pre-nup agreements on dates!*
> 
> "Any monies that party 1 and party 2 individually bring on date will pay for each parties food eaten on said date. If party 2 orders Lobster and can't pay for lobster, then party 1 will offer to provide (without prejudice) gloves for party 2 to wash dishes to pay for party 2's meal."
> 
> ...


 
I'm sorry, but this* is* funny...  A pre-nup for a *date*!!!  I would love to see how this turns out in Judge Judy's or Judge Mathis' court room.  

The thing is, I wouldn't be surprised if someone did this.  Perhaps the 'Donald' or some other 'mega-nairre', having a woman sign a 'date pre-nup' .... but a date isn't a nup... it a more of a nope.


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## Shimmie (Jan 23, 2007)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> *HOWEVER...* think about it. JCoily has made a point here. These men do NOT wish to lose their MeGa churches. Come on and look at the news of the 'mighty fallen'. Ummmmm, wifey can do some pottie wiiping big time.
> 
> Pre-nups, maybe not...but Interval-Post Nups, I would not be surprised. They were ALL broke when they were married.


 


			
				RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> Such an arrangement could be good for the wives who are free from any obligations in case the church gets into arrears. The wife's name ain't on the paper, she's not liable.


 
Sad that's it's the church...a line defense over money which should not be. 

(Disclaimer:  I don't have a clue about football, so the term used above just sound-ed right...  )


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## firecracker (Jan 23, 2007)

cocoberry10 said:
			
		

> *My parents have been married for almost 35 years*.


 
That's a big difference to me because they obviously got married young and did all things together.  Ie: retirement planning, accumulating assets and wealth. 

At a certain age after preparing, accumulating, achieving financial goals individually for your future and children one would be a simpleton to simply throw that to the wind all because "I's married now". 

Also I doubt if fear has anything to do with maintaining and securing what you worked so hard to accomplish for your family's future prior to marriage.  I would definitely expect a man to have his ducks in order for his future and children as well prior to marriage.


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## cocoberry10 (Jan 23, 2007)

firecracker said:
			
		

> *That's a big difference to me because they obviously got married young and did all things together*.  Ie: retirement planning, accumulating assets and wealth.
> 
> At a certain age after preparing, accumulating, achieving financial goals individually for your future and children one would be a simpleton to simply throw that to the wind all because "I's married now".
> 
> Also I doubt if fear has anything to do with maintaining and securing what you worked so hard to accomplish for your family's future prior to marriage.  I would definitely expect a man to have his ducks in order for his future and children as well prior to marriage.



You are right, they did marry young, and that does make a difference.  Even I won't be as young as my parents, and I'm still in my early/mid-20's (they were 22 and had dated for 4 years prior).  As much as people chastise her for it, I can see why Oprah did not marry Stedman.  Some of what we are talking about here may have something to do with it.  Someone of her status would definitely have to deal with that, whether or not she decided to get one or not.

I am not opposed to pre-nups for those that want them, and I definitely don't begrudge those that work hard.  I'm sure Terry McMillan is extremely glad she had a prenup.  It's saving her a big headache.  But for me, I would like to believe that even if I marry a monster, the bigger one, God will restore me.  This doesn't mean that I won't go through hell and a handbasket here on earth.  Sooooooooooooo many people (women and men do).  But I've seen far more women get screwed over from not having a proper will/improper probate/estate planning, than over a prenup, since most people don't have the kind of wealth that a prenup will really be sooooooo important.

But this is why I go back to my original statements


			
				cocoberry10 said:
			
		

> *For those of you who do plan on pre-nups, I have no personal judgment against you for them, but as for me...*
> *I don't personally believe in pre-nups*, but refer to my post #52 as some of the reasons why some may believe in them (I'm giving the legal perspective as a future lawyer and all ).
> 
> *BUT...Why I as a future lawyer, don't personally believe in a pre-nup is this:*
> ...


----------



## Crackers Phinn (Jan 23, 2007)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, but this* is* funny...  A pre-nup for a *date*!!!  I would love to see how this turns out in Judge Judy's or Judge Mathis' court room.



Yeah, I was getting my joke on.  

But Creflo seems like the type  .


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## kbragg (Jan 23, 2007)

firecracker said:
			
		

> Also I doubt if fear has anything to do with maintaining and securing *what you worked so hard to accomplish* for your family's future prior to marriage.


 
If it wasn't for God's grace, we wouldn't have jack, so if He can get it for us once He can get it for us again. Now of course if you're leaning on your own understanding that's a different story...


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## Southernbella. (Jan 23, 2007)

kbragg said:
			
		

> If it wasn't for God's grace, we wouldn't have jack, so if He can get it for us once He can get it for us again. Now of course if you're leaning on your own understanding that's a different story...



Geez...I wasn't going to say anything, but I don't understand why when Christians disagree with you, it's because they don't have as much faith as you (general), or becuse they're not as spiritual, or leaning on their own understanding, or whatever. 

Not everyone interprets the Word in the same way. Truth be told, we're ALL leaning on our own understanding of what the Bible says. We won't always agree, but can we stop with the condescension? This is not directed at you only, but I see it all the time on this board, in all different types of threads.


----------



## StrawberryQueen (Jan 23, 2007)

lauren450 said:
			
		

> Geez...I wasn't going to say anything, but I don't understand why when Christians disagree with you, it's because they don't have as much faith as you (general), or becuse they're not as spiritual, or leaning on their own understanding, or whatever.
> 
> Not everyone interprets the Word in the same way. Truth be told, we're ALL leaning on our own understanding of what the Bible says. We won't always agree, but can we stop with the condescension? This is not directed at you only, but I see it all the time on this board, in all different types of threads.


I agree Lauren.   Kinda sad, but oh well. 

Divine and Lauren have given me such good info to think about on both sides, I've lost my opinion!  I don't know what to think.

But the two of you are both divinely inspired!  Thanks for all of your posts.


----------



## Divine Inspiration (Jan 23, 2007)

StrawberryQueen said:
			
		

> I agree Lauren.   Kinda sad, but oh well.
> 
> Divine and Lauren have given me such good info to think about on both sides, I've lost my opinion!  I don't know what to think.
> 
> But the two of you are both divinely inspired!  Thanks for all of your posts.



Aww gee. Didn't mean to contribute to the confusion, but you're welcome.  Thank you for your kind words.  

I've enjoyed this exchange. These kinds of conversations are healthy for Christians, IMO.  

And, I hope no one has found my words condescending or self-righteous because that certainly isn't my intent. My posts come from a personal place. My motto is: I have my way, you have your way...as for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.


----------



## Shimmie (Jan 23, 2007)

BlkManWithSomeSense said:
			
		

> Very True. Sometimes material gain is a mixed blessing.


Very mixed.  When I reflect on the blessings, I want to 'reflect' upon the one with whom I shared the 'Commonalities'...the one of real value; the one I love.

Not value the things ... material...which would never be able replace the man who allowed me to stand beside him, live in his heart, spoil me with his desire to do better; allowing me know his heart; see his tears; bringing him morning smiles; homemade ice tea with honey/lemon; a chef salad...that he trusted me to make; supporting his Destiny and Dreams...Believing in him, even when others don't or when he doubts himself...trusting me to pray for him; these Blessings and more and Him...Priceless.  

Can these be rendered in a 'pre-nup'...?


----------



## cocoberry10 (Jan 23, 2007)

lauren450 said:
			
		

> Geez...I wasn't going to say anything, *but I don't understand why when Christians disagree with you, it's because they don't have as much faith as you (general), or becuse they're not as spiritual, or leaning on their own understanding, or whatever*.
> 
> Not everyone interprets the Word in the same way. Truth be told, we're ALL leaning on our own understanding of what the Bible says. We won't always agree, but can we stop with the condescension? This is not directed at you only, but I see it all the time on this board, in all different types of threads.



I understand what you are saying, and I hope that nothing I've said has offended you.  I have learned a lot from your posts.  I think that we all have strong opinions, and sometimes it can come across offensively or harshly to each other, but I don't think everyone (I know maybe with some) means it to sound judgmental.  As I said in my previous posts, I don't personally believe in them, but I do see their value, and I do understand why some would want them (like insurance, etc).  I don't believe one's salvation will be totally dependent on it.


----------



## Shimmie (Jan 23, 2007)

JCoily said:
			
		

> Yeah, I was getting my joke on.
> 
> But Creflo seems like the type  .


  You are too funny.   

But "JColiy", Creflo and Taffy (his wife) seem to be pretty happy.  Plus they didn't have a 'nup' to 'pre' when they were married.   Not until they hooked up with Kenneth Copeland and then God just blessed them. 

It took Creflo awhile to gain his 'own' identity, ministry-wise.  It used to 'bother' me in the beginning because he was too much like Copeland and not his own 'man' so it seemed to me.  Now, he's a lot more stronger and more of who he is and not a clone of someone else.

Only if you care to, share why you see him as the type to bring a pre-nup on a date.   I think the 'date' nup is too funny for anyone.  You have a great sense of humor.   

BTW:  Do you have a crochet doll for this date? I'm sure a pre-nup will truly be in order then.    Thanks for the laugh.


----------



## Southernbella. (Jan 23, 2007)

cocoberry10 said:
			
		

> I understand what you are saying, and I hope that nothing I've said has offended you.  I have learned a lot from your posts.  I think that we all have strong opinions, and sometimes it can come across offensively or harshly to each other, but I don't think everyone (I know maybe with some) means it to sound judgmental.  As I said in my previous posts, I don't personally believe in them, but I do see their value, and I do understand why some would want them (like insurance, etc).  I don't believe one's salvation will be totally dependent on it.



It was nothing you said at all! For the most part, I think everyone has been civil. I shouldn't have even said anything, really. I just wish we could have discussions without the "if you REALLY knew what the Word says like I do" type attitude. I'm not blameless; I'm sure I've done it too. I promise to choose my words more carefully from now on.


----------



## Shimmie (Jan 23, 2007)

lauren450 said:
			
		

> Geez...I wasn't going to say anything, but I don't understand why when Christians disagree with you, it's because they don't have as much faith as you (general), or becuse they're not as spiritual, or leaning on their own understanding, or whatever.
> 
> Not everyone interprets the Word in the same way. Truth be told, we're ALL leaning on our own understanding of what the Bible says. We won't always agree, but can we stop with the condescension? This is not directed at you only, but I see it all the time on this board, in all different types of threads.


Lauren, I apologize as well.  I 'know' how strongly I can land on a subject.  But believe me it is the subject and not an individual.   And actually, I'm addressing the devil, for that's what I know to do...stop him in his tracks.  

I've fought the good fight of faith for so long, that's it's my first and final reaction.   It works wonders in Intercessory Prayer...I don't let up.  Yet I do apologize when I've hurt someone.  It's never my intention.


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## kbragg (Jan 24, 2007)

I'm gonna take a WILD guess and guess the negative was directed towards me I by no means mean to offend, however I am sincerely offended when fellow sisters look at the Covenant relationship a man and woman proclaim before and with God as "negotiable." I'm not talking about people in the world, but men and women of God. IMO if it's that much of an issue it would be better to not get married than say to God, "I make this covenant with you...BUT....just in case, I gotta cover myself..you know how it is Lord..." I mean, GOD's own Words, NOT Kassandra's: 

_Malachi 2:16 AMP For the Lord, the God of Israel, says: I hate divorce and marital separation and him who covers his garment [his wife] with violence. Therefore keep a watch upon your spirit [that it may be controlled by My Spirit], that you deal not treacherously and faithlessly [with your marriage mate]._

So if God HATES divorce, why even enter into a marriage with a prenup which as another poster said is not only speaking it into existance, but concidering it. It should not even enter the mind of the Christian.

Sorry if anyone finds this offensive. It was not meant to offend anyone but the devil and the lie he's trying to justify.


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## PaperClip (Jan 24, 2007)

Ok... this has been quite a "spirited" conversation.... Concerning my position on the matter, I'm still not sure. I know what I have been taught about God's outlook on the marriage relationship.... but I also know what I have lived, experienced, and observed. 

For those that speak so passionately against prenups, it appears that common themes are that there a marriage took place before the age of 30 (whether it remained or not), with no substantive assets (e.g., home paid off, large inheritance, signficant savings, etc.), no dependents, etc.

For those who spoke so passionately in favor of prenups, it appears that common themes are that a marriage did not take place before the age of 30 or the marriage did not remain, there might have been a certain amount of assets involved, and there is some sense of, for lack of a better word, apprehension concerning personal survival.

For those in the middle of the debate, that is what it is! 

As I said in my initial post, if I had gotten married at 25 or even 30, this question would not be relevant. But I am past 30 and not yet married. In a way, it almost feels like a punishment to not be married because as much as I can do, there's so much that I cannot do because of the coupling, racial, and gender biases of our society. Maybe I brought up this question out of my ongoing angst about why I am not married yet. And what am I supposed to do with my life....

Wow... that was painfully honest and embarrassing. 

I appreciate you all's contributions to this thread.


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## live2bgr8 (Jan 24, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> Ok... this has been quite a "spirited" conversation.... Concerning my position on the matter, I'm still not sure. I know what I have been taught about God's outlook on the marriage relationship.... but I also know what I have lived, experienced, and observed.
> 
> For those that speak so passionately against prenups, it appears that common themes are that there a marriage took place before the age of 30 (whether it remained or not), with no substantive assets (e.g., home paid off, large inheritance, signficant savings, etc.), no dependents, etc.
> 
> ...


 
Please don't be embarrased.    There's no reason to be.    We love you, and most importantly *God loves you*.   Thank you for sharing your thoughts and your heart with us.

ETA: God makes all things beautiful in His time. Your time is comming! I feel it.


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## Shimmie (Jan 24, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> Ok... this has been quite a "spirited" conversation.... Concerning my position on the matter, I'm still not sure. I know what I have been taught about God's outlook on the marriage relationship.... but I also know what I have lived, experienced, and observed.
> 
> For those that speak so passionately against prenups, it appears that common themes are that there a marriage took place before the age of 30 (whether it remained or not), with no substantive assets (e.g., home paid off, large inheritance, signficant savings, etc.), no dependents, etc.
> 
> ...


 
Girl, I already have my dress for your wedding... and I ain't never bought a wedding dress in vain... NEVER!


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## cocoberry10 (Jan 24, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> Ok... this has been quite a "spirited" conversation.... Concerning my position on the matter, I'm still not sure. I know what I have been taught about God's outlook on the marriage relationship.... but I also know what I have lived, experienced, and observed.
> 
> For those that speak so passionately against prenups, it appears that common themes are that there a marriage took place before the age of 30 (whether it remained or not), with no substantive assets (e.g., home paid off, large inheritance, signficant savings, etc.), no dependents, etc.
> 
> ...



Don't be embarassed at all.  I look around at all the Black women in this country who aren't married, and sometimes I wonder why myself.  I don't want to feel like Black women have become the "joke" of society, but when I see my beautiful, accomplished, kind-hearted sisters who really want to be married, but aren't it really does break my heart.

It's like when I went to law school.  I was during that "post-9/11" era where there were sooooooooooooo many people who had no real desire to go to law school, but b/c of the shaky economy, they just took the LSAT, got in, and went.  On the other hand, I had several friends who had dreamed of going to law school since a young age, and didn't get in and were heartbroken.  It seems that way with marriage in our community.  There are so many women who really want to be married, and who would make great wives, but aren't.  And there are women who never even blink an eyelash, and "Mr. Right" just seems to fall in their lap.  Now, I know this is not the norm, so married ladies, don't take what I said as a personal attack, it's not.  Believe it or not, women today are struggling in this area, regardless of race, age, or social class, b/c most of my single friends (not all are Black) are having a hard time getting the "right" one.  No matter how beautiful, successful, kind, etc.  So, know that you aren't alone.  I just feel like Black women's hardships are on display in the media more than others, and I'm beginning to think that the media is further contributing to the hardships between Black males and females.

Totally off topic, but I just had to say it!


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## PaperClip (Jan 24, 2007)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> Girl, I already have my dress for your wedding... and I ain't never bought a wedding dress in vain... NEVER!


 

    Thank you....


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## Shimmie (Jan 24, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> Thank you....


 
  You're worth it, precious sister...very worth it.  

And...I promise not to Belly Dance -  in front of your Pastors and Church members... Okay?


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## PaperClip (Jan 24, 2007)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> You're worth it, precious sister...very worth it.
> 
> And...I promise not to Belly Dance - in front of your Pastors and Church members... Okay?


 
 hold it for the reception!


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## Shimmie (Jan 24, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> hold it for the reception!


 
This means you have to 'get up and Belly Dance for your husband' in front of Errrr body...  

But that's alll aight, your husband will be grinning for years...past your 40 Anniversary.  

Hugs angel...just getting you ready, that's all.  Start making your plans.  

"He that will come shall come and will not tarry..."  (the book of Malachi don't lie).


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## Bublnbrnsuga (Jan 25, 2007)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> HUH!????!  Oh Dear!  Oh Dear, Dear, Dear!
> 
> Sweetheart, since when is God limited?   Let me answer before the devil and his marbles begin to roll backwards....
> 
> ...




Yeah, I was like, 'why am I serving a God that doesn't know the future??? What's the point?' I knew someone would say something about that statement sooner or later


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## Shimmie (Jan 25, 2007)

Bublnbrnsuga said:
			
		

> Yeah, I was like, 'why am I serving a God that doesn't know the future??? What's the point?'
> 
> *I knew someone would say something about that statement sooner or later*


 
Ummmmm, you talking about me?  Huh?     You know me all too well, my beautiful sister...all too well.  

Love you.... ((( hugs )))


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## barnardbaby027 (Jan 25, 2007)

I'm much younger (I think) than most people here, but I just wanted to put my cents in:

Proverbs tells us that *DEATH* and *LIFE* are in the power of the tounge. We have what we say we have. If you and your husband as believers are claiming nothing missing and nothing broken in your marriage, then that is what you will have. If you are claiming the "What If's"...then that is what you will have - uncertainty. This is not just for marriage - this pertains to each and every aspect of our lives. I think a prenup speaks the wrong things into a marriage - and since death and life are in the power of the tounge, it is no wonder that people need to protect their assets these days!

I believe when you get married, you operate as one. What was yours is no longer yours, and what was his is no longer his. When you know your marriage is sanctioned by God - when we are following HIS will and not ours, divorce is something we don't have to worry about - and I mean that wholeheartedly. As believers, we have a right to nothing missing and nothing broken in our lives - EVER. 

I think we have to remember that as Christians we don't operate the way the world operates. People who operate in the world do not have the privelage of knowing God's will for their lives, of knowing that God is directing EVERY SINGLE STEP, of knowing who they should marry, of speaking things that are not as though they were and getting results, and of having the promise of nothing lacking in their marriages - or in their lives, for that matter. As Christians, we have those privelages.

A prenup protects your money, but not your heart. Why not have God as insurance that everything gets protected in every aspect of your life all of the time?


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## Shimmie (Jan 25, 2007)

barnardbaby027 said:
			
		

> I'm much younger (I think) than most people here, but I just wanted to put my cents in:
> 
> Proverbs tells us that *DEATH* and *LIFE* are in the power of the tounge. We have what we say we have. If you and your husband as believers are claiming nothing missing and nothing broken in your marriage, then that is what you will have. If you are claiming the "What If's"...then that is what you will have - uncertainty. This is not just for marriage - this pertains to each and every aspect of our lives. I think a prenup speaks the wrong things into a marriage - and since death and life are in the power of the tounge, it is no wonder that people need to protect their assets these days!
> 
> ...


 
You may 'think' you're the younger and that you 'may' well be, but you sure spoke the wisdom and the truth and the light that put the elders to shame.   The Prophetess has spoken!    

Well said and the truth at that.   I love it.  



> "*As believers, we have a right to nothing missing and nothing broken in our lives - EVER. *
> 
> *we have to remember that as Christians we don't operate the way the world operates. People who operate in the world do not have the privelage of knowing God's will for their lives, of knowing that God is directing EVERY SINGLE STEP, of knowing who they should marry, of speaking things that are not as though they were and getting results, and of having the promise of nothing lacking in their marriages - or in their lives, for that matter. As Christians, we have those privelages.*
> 
> *Why not have God as insurance that everything gets protected in every aspect of your life all of the time.*


 
Lord, Lord, Lord.....Somebody just Praise Him!   Bless His Holy Name and Just Praise Him....Glory, glory, glory, glory....Bless His Holy Name.   Oh Bless His Name...Jesus...Bless His Holy Name....

Lord your word has been spoken.  "Thy word O' God is forever settled in Heaven." (Psalm 119). 

Amen and Amen...


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