# WHEN HE DOES THIS, I FEEL SO UNEASY



## meek&quietspirit (Mar 12, 2007)

Yesterday, our Pastor was preaching an excellent sermon.

But, sure enough, he starts talking bout how he and his wife were out this past weekend and saw some lady with a very tight teeshirt on.  The shirt said _too blessed to be stressed_.  He said he did what any "normal, herteosexual, man would do, he stared at her chest." 

Then he goes on to say that while walking with the college president, he didn't want him to notice him checking out the young, pretty ladies with the mini-skirts on, so he just keeps looking straight ahead and talking with the president.  (He won't scope other women with the president, but he will with his wife)?erplexed 

I know that we all have issues and deal with secret sins, but, should a pastor who has preached for 40 years and been married for 36 years still react in this manner?

I can't talk to anyone at the church about this cause most of them laugh when he says such things, including his wife! 

I've written about this before.

Am I being too touchy???


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## dlewis (Mar 12, 2007)

I don't think he should.  And he's telling other men in the church that it's ok to do this.  Why is this coming up in a sermon anyway?


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## PaperClip (Mar 12, 2007)

I kinda laughed as I read the story as well, but it's not a jokey laugh, but more of a nervous laugh, which is probably what many of your fellow church members are doing as well....

Do you think the uneasiness you feel comes from him sharing his story at all or the point that he actually feels/thinks the way he did?

I think it's clear that most of us understand that people are people (men are men) and there's a distinction between "notice" and "stare".... 

Maybe there's not much to say at all but just to pray for your pastor in general for him, as we all are supposed to do so that they continue to do well in their role as pastor/leader and that they are not led into unhealthy situations.


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## GodsPromises (Mar 12, 2007)

For me the problem is that we put our "Pastors" on this high pestal.  "He shouldn't do this, he shouldn't be doing that" that we forget that they are males first and foremost.  No he shouldn't be looking at ladies chest be he married for 36 years or 3 months.  However, that he can get up in front of the church and say yes I did it,  I am human I have repented let's move on.  He a way it shows what we don't want to see: a human pastor.  

I can say all of that because my husband got up yesterday and in his sermon to make a point stated that " my wife and I do not have a pefect marriage, we are not there yet, there are times when we fuss and fight and there were times that I *cussed*, however, I know that is wrong and we are getting better because I realized that I am not being an example to our son or the neighbors".  Was he right to say that yes he was, again it proved that yes Pastors are human.


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## alexstin (Mar 12, 2007)

He doesn't sound remorseful at all. From the way it was posted it seems like his attitude is,"It's what men do." Was he remorseful, OP?

Both my DH an I notice people of the opposite sex who are attractive....... but to stare or oogle? That ain't going to happen! It's disrepectful to your spouse and the person you are oogling.

I would feel VERY awkward approaching him  for anything if I was in the congregation. Who's to say he's not checking me out.erplexed 






			
				LadyR said:
			
		

> For me the problem is that we put our "Pastors" on this high pestal.  "He shouldn't do this, he shouldn't be doing that" that we forget that they are males first and foremost.  No he shouldn't be looking at ladies chest be he married for 36 years or 3 months.  *However, that he can get up in front of the church and say yes I did it,  I am human I have repented let's move on.  He a way it shows what we don't want to see: a human pastor.
> *I can say all of that because my husband got up yesterday and in his sermon to make a point stated that " my wife and I do not have a pefect marriage, we are not there yet, there are times when we fuss and fight and there were times that I *cussed*, however, I know that is wrong and we are getting better because I realized that I am not being an example to our son or the neighbors".  Was he right to say that yes he was, again it proved that yes Pastors are human.


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## GodsPromises (Mar 12, 2007)

I agree if he is up there just saying "yeah I did it and I will do it again then he is died wron.  I am giving him the belief of the doubt that he is saying its wrong, I know that's it wrong but I am confession that I have done it.



			
				alexstin said:
			
		

> He doesn't sound remorseful at all. From the way it was posted it seems like his attitude is,"It's what men do." Was he remorseful, OP?
> 
> Both my DH an I notice people of the opposite sex who are attractive....... but to stare or oogle? That ain't going to happen! It's disrepectful to your spouse and the person you are oogling.
> 
> I would feel VERY awkward approaching him for anything if I was in the congregation. Who's to say he's not checking me out.erplexed


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## Shimmie (Mar 12, 2007)

He's wrong!  And he needs to watch it!  For he is not presenting himself as a man who respects his call a a minister or his wife.  He is also giving the impression that it is OKAY to do this when it is NOT okay.  

Be a Man...a Godly Man.  Just because you have a tendency to 'sin' doesn't mean you have a right to do so.  Yes, men are visual, but they are taught to not only have restraint, but to have their eyes on Jesus and not another woman's breast.    For God's sake... Get Real!  It's not a game here! 

He's publicly 'lusting'.   Joseph had sense to run from Potipher's wife...so what's his problem?  'Sit' until you have it together...then minister to others.  I know too many Pastors who have done this; there was a 'wave' of sexual ministry going on in the 90's.   On one hand 'sex' was being brought up in the church for the purpose of putting 'sex' in its right perspective with husbands and wives.   

However, too many men of God got carried away and started using too many graphics and calling body parts by the street names (the 'T' word for a woman's breasts; the 'A' word and one Pastor was even using the 'P' word) all the while trying to make it appear there was a point to it.  Many members 'fell' away.   

Divorces within the church went to record numbers during 1995-2001 and it was all because of the lack of respect and order in the house of God.   Too many liberties were being taken and the carnal approach to life and marriage was completely miscontrued beyond repair.  There were Pastors having affairs with OTHER Pastor's wives.  It was just too much carnality being allowed in ministry.  And it lead to much devastation and heartache.   I WAS THERE and SAW it All.  

Big name Pastors marriages were falling like dead apples from a tree... I can name them for days.  On yes I can!  25 years in the ministry, I got to know quite a few men and women of God in and out of high profile.  I've seen them come and go.   You see, as soon as a man/woman of God speaks of his/her weakness and plays it off as 'Okay'....the enemy comes in big time with more than the temptation, but the man/woman of God has already set themselves up for failure.  They've given themselves over into the enemy's hand. 

Bottomline, the behavior of OP's Pastor is just his own admission that he is thinking about sinning.  He is.  He's admitted it.  It's not a joke and the members who laugh are fearful of confronting him.   He's not God.  He's wrong and he is misleading the sheep.   He needs prayer and even more he needs counseling from his leadship head ... a seasoned Mentor.   I've seen and heard too many like him and the results are not healthy.


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## TrulyBlessed (Mar 12, 2007)

This reminds me of Rev. Leon Lonnie Love from "Martin".


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## meek&quietspirit (Mar 12, 2007)

Thank you all for your replies.

My only concern is that he makes comments like these almost every Sunday, even during Bible Class. It's one thing to struggle, it's another thing to joke about it and mention it just about weekly, (with a blatant attitude).

Don't get me wrong.  I know my DH will look @ a pretty woman. But, looking is one thing, staring is completely something else.  Let's just say that I may not be so * meek&quiet* if he displayed such behavior in front of me.  As someone mentioned earlier, it's just a matter of respect.  

Why do I stay? Cause he is a really gifted teacher and I have learned a lot from him explaining the Bible. Also, I'm concerned that if I go somewhere else, that the pastor could suffer from this sin or many more. 

Anyway, about 10 years ago, he got involved with a single woman in our congregation. Because of the sensitive nature of the situation, I won't go into detail, but it was quite heartbreaking and embarrassing.

So, continue to pray for me and offer your advice to me as you "speak the truth in love." 

.


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## alexstin (Mar 12, 2007)

You have to make your own decision but I would really encourage you not to settle. Just because you're learning something isn't a reason to stay. 

From experience I know that may times believers put up with things that their pastor does that they would be horrified if their spouse or child did. He(the pastor) keeps doing it because he is not held accountable.

DH and I left the church we were apart of for 10 years when we found out our pastor talked it but didn't walk it. Not only did we leave the church but DH was one of the pastors on staff.  We knew it would cause an uproar but standing for truth is so much more important. 

I encourage you to consult the Lord in prayer and in studying His word too see His will for you.


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## Shimmie (Mar 12, 2007)

meek&quietspirit said:
			
		

> Thank you all for your replies.
> 
> My only concern is that he makes comments like these almost every Sunday, even during Bible Class. It's one thing to struggle, it's another thing to joke about it and mention it just about weekly, (with a blatant attitude).
> 
> ...


The real question, is do you want this message to find its home in your husband's spirit.  Our Pastors are also our spiritual fathers, and what they allow, they teach.   The enemy uses this as a way to influence a person's actions/decisions when tempted.   

TV, the Movies, Just plain TV commercials are bad enough with their influences, but when it comes from a Leader as a joke or presented as okay, it's more serious.   For 'children do follow their parents; even when it's something wrong.   If Dad does it, why not?   Just like the word of God, this is the seed that has been is planted and it's being watered.   The flesh always wars agains the spirit...always.

Here's the thing.  Someone had better speak up and shut him up.  He's not so high that he cannot be brought down.   When a brother is in sin, he must be told as such.   This Pastor is in deep sin.  And he's sending signals out to the enemy to bring it on.   Don't think for one moment there will not be a woman in the congregation ready and willing to wear a tight T Shirt.... 

Pleeeese.  I've seen it all.


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## dlewis (Mar 12, 2007)

The bottom line is, if you feel uneasy about this, holyspirit who lives in you is telling you it's wrong.


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## Browndilocks (Mar 12, 2007)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> *The real question, is do you want this message to find its home in your husband's spirit.  Our Pastors are also our spiritual fathers, and what they allow, they teach.   The enemy uses this as a way to influence a person's actions/decisions when tempted.   *



I agree with this 100%!  This is not the first time you've expressed concern about this.  Spirits travel and often trickle down from the pastor to the men that sit under him. I'd personally pray for him but begin to look for another church too.  The last thing you want is an unclean spirit like that in your own home.

Pastors should not be worshipped, but should definitely be put on a pedastal.  They are in a place of leadership and spitirual guidance for many.  People who sit under their teachings are to follow the bible, but are still influenced by these pastors.  So it really pisses me off when pastors want to play the "I am only human" card, and use it as an excuse to justify their wrongs.  Yes - you are only human already.   But please come up with something better to say.  They are humans... who are (supposedly; and when done right) divinely called to be a messenger for the Word, and with that comes a certain level of responsibility. 

One of the priviliges of being a pastor entails being treated "special". Special parking space, special seat during service, special recognition, etc., and rightfully so. Yet I have never seen a pastor reject being treated this way because they are "only human".  But as soon as they make a questionable mistake, they pull the "I am only Human Card".  It's sickening.

Just say something else.  Say "The Lord is still working on me in certain areas" or "Living Holy is a constant cleansing process".  Not "I'm only human", because then it seems that a pastor can use the privileges of his title for the good things but conveniently declassify himself as simply human whenever he doesn't want to take the full responsibility of that title.  Pastors indeed make human mistakes and need spiritual cleansing like anyone else.  Yet they are definitely accountable for more that what a "regular" churchgoer is, and because of that, should make even more of an effort to seek the Lord and behave accordingly - as an example to his congregation.


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## Mocha5 (Mar 12, 2007)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> The real question, is do you want this message to find its home in your husband's spirit.
> 
> I wholeheartedly agree!  Your pastor is planting a seed in every man in his congregation.  Most of seeds may be good but Satan looks to nurish the bad ones.  And just like a baby, the longer it is nurished, the bigger it will grow.  Until eventually it has to be birthed (meaning that they will begin to resort to the same behavior).  Like DLewis said, the Holy Spirit has already begun to speak to you about this matter.  The real question is what are you going to do?   By the way, have you had this conversation with your husband?  If not, that may be a good starting point.


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## meek&quietspirit (Mar 12, 2007)

DH gets very upset when this type of talking goes on.  He sometimes feels that it creates tention between us.  But, he's not doing anything wrong.

My DH and I will pray to see if The Lord wants us to leave and if He does, where He would want us to go.


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## Mocha5 (Mar 12, 2007)

meek&quietspirit said:
			
		

> DH gets very upset when this type of talking goes on. He sometimes feels that it creates tention between us. But, he's not doing anything wrong.
> 
> My DH and I will pray to see if The Lord wants us to leave and if He does, where He would want us to go.


 

That's the best thing to do.  Praying for wisdom for you and your DH.


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## He_Leads_I_follow (Mar 12, 2007)

Greetings Sisters 

I'm new to the site and was glad to find a Christian forum. It's good to know I can get hair advice without the vulgarity .

I'm actually replying to the "Meek" sister. When will the church be sick of the perversion?! When will "she" relaize it just takes "a little leaven"?! Ugh! I'm so sick of pastors joking about sin to make everyone comfortable. If you leave church never feeling challenged about the way you live your life, THEN YOU'RE IN THE WRONG CHURCH! 

Christ didn't appease sin, he challenged it. He challenged it in the lives of the disiples and the haughty church leaders. I pray that your precious pastor would examine himself. And that he would stop abusing his wife in this way. Yes, it's abuse . Just because she laughs doesn't mean she thinks it's funny. Sometimes it's easier to join in the laughter so you won't be laughed at! 

We're living in a sensitive time right now. It's time out for nonsense. He can not afford to use the pulpit for foolish talk. He has the ears of undisciplined men who need to know that they are free in Christ Jesus! YES FREE FROM THE BONDAGE OF SIN! Yes, they need to know they no longer have to give in to every whim of the flesh. There is no time for gray areas. God is "black or white" hot or cold. He's clear about His standard.

Listen, make no excuses for error because God sure doesn't! Oh an in regards of you leaving the church? Just remember "like preist, like people".  Try EVERY spirit 

P.S. "Shimmie" your comments were quite profound! "Meek" you have some pretty sound counsel on this site. Bless you


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## Crackers Phinn (Mar 12, 2007)

meek&quietspirit said:
			
		

> I can't talk to anyone at the church about this cause most of them laugh when he says such things, including his wife!
> 
> I've written about this before.
> 
> *Am I being too touchy???*



Not at all. I had a similar experience at a church I visited and felt really uncomfortable with it so I took myself out of the situation.


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## kbragg (Mar 12, 2007)

Sounds like he needs to get saved.erplexed Yes, I said it! Just because he preaches good, don't mean he's saved. He has no place behind a pulpit:

*Matthew 7:*

15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 

 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 
 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 
 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 
 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 
 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 
 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?  23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 

*Matthew 12:*


 33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. 
 34O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? *for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. *
 35A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 
 36But I say unto you, *That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.* *37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.*

*1 Timothy 3*


 1This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 
 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 
 3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, *not covetous*; (lust is coveting)
 4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 
 5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 
 6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 
 7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. 
 8Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; 
 9Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 
 10And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. 
 11Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 
 12Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.  13For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

*Titus 1:*


 5For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: 
 6If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. 
 7For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; 
 8But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; 
 9Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. 
10For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 
11Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. 
 12One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. 
 13This witness is true. Wherefore *rebuke them sharply,* *that they may be sound in the faith;* 
 14Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. 
 15Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; *but even their mind and conscience is defiled.*  16They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

I would take the issue to the elders of the church, and if they do nothing, take it to whomever is above him. I'm hesistant to tell you leave, because God may be impressing upon your heart to bring this issue to light because no one else will, so that brother can get saved.

Bless you my master cleanse sistah!


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## Southernbella. (Mar 13, 2007)

> When will "she" relaize it just takes "a little leaven"?!



This is so true. I believe this is how sin festers inside the church. I agree with the others that you have to ask yourself if you're willing to ignore what your spirit is telling you. I did this for years in my old church and I regret it.


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## MrsHouston (Mar 13, 2007)

His attitude will cause a lot of people to stumble too.  Very sad 

I'm wondering if his wife is "really" ok with this.


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## Shimmie (Mar 13, 2007)

MrsHouston said:
			
		

> His attitude will cause a lot of people to stumble too. Very sad
> 
> I'm wondering if his wife is "really" ok with this.


She's not.  I can clearly without a doubt tell you that she's not.  What woman would be; especially the 'First Lady'?   I can only imagine that she feels no different than Hillary Clinton did at the time of her shame.

Who wants a husband who stands before an audience and continues to announce, his wife is not enough for him?   That hurts.   He's literally putting her down and he is not being obedient to God's word in loving his wife; treating her as the tender kind, forsaking all others and cleaving unto her (lusting at another woman's breast and then brag about it as a joke, is forsaking his wife.  God's word says tht husbands are to let his wife's breast satisfy him at all times...that's HER breasts, not some other woman's) satisfy him...all the time.   

What wife can take this as a joke.   It's painful for any woman; especially one in the word of God for we are taught differently.  

Some things are just not right...and there's no way to laugh one's way out of it.   I know too many men of God who went this way and still have not found their way back.   And it's sad.     I feel sad for everyone; even us for again 'we' the body of Christ have another 'brother' to pull up in prayer before he falls.  And what makes it sad is that it is so unnecessary.    He knows better.


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## firecracker (Mar 13, 2007)

I guess you could file that under the TMI fo da chuch house rule because pastor is definitely a man.  
You said "when he does this" as if he shares these type of lustful personal thoughts in the pulpit often 

OK ETA after reading the initial/OP your pastor is making light and glossing over his heathenesque ways.  You have a choice to make because your spirit is speaking to you.


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## cocoberry10 (Mar 13, 2007)

alexstin said:
			
		

> *He doesn't sound remorseful at all. From the way it was posted it seems like his attitude is,"It's what men do." Was he remorseful, OP?*
> 
> Both my DH an I notice people of the opposite sex who are attractive....... but to stare or oogle? That ain't going to happen! It's disrepectful to your spouse and the person you are oogling.
> 
> I would feel VERY awkward approaching him  for anything if I was in the congregation. Who's to say he's not checking me out.erplexed



I totally agree with this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If beautiful women are his "weakness," then stating that during a sermon would be fine.  However, it's the way he says it that's a problem "I did what any normal, heterosexual man would do."

That's becoming my problem with the church.  I've actually prayed about this, because at times, Christianity feels sexist.  And of course, if Christianity feels sexist, than we often start to attribute those same qualities to God, our Heavenly Father.  But the reality is that "His ways are higher than ours."

For example, one of my issues with the church is that I feel they put greater pressure on the woman to make sure that she and her boyfriend don't have premarital sex, when the responsibility is on both parties.  I feel like a lot of churches say things like "don't dress provocatively," "don't entice him."  "don't let him come into your home unsupervised."  Not that these things are wrong, but where's the responsibility on the man?  Where's the "don't try to go into her apartment," "don't try to get physical with her."  I'm sorry, but in my experience and most women I know, it's the guy that wants to (read: tries to) get physical first (I know we are in 2007, but even with my Christian and non-Christian friends, most of the men they date make the first move towards a sexual relationship).

I think the church often lets men off the hook and puts too much of the responsibility on women.  When I was in church one Sunday, the pastor said, "you know, men weren't made to be monogamous.  I mean it's really not natural."  Well, women weren't made that way either.  We all have needs and we all have desires, and I'm personally tired of people believing that it's easier for women to "behave" than men.  If it was soooooooooooooooooo easy for women to behave, Proverbs wouldn't warn men to watch out for the seductress.  Obviously, women aren't always sooooooooo monogamous either.

Sorry, I just had to vent!

And lastly, they always act like women are trying to get men to ogle them.  I hate when I feel men staring at my breasts (I am 5'2, 98-100 lbs and wear a D/DD cup, so you can imagine the ogling).  Obviously, no matter what I do, my "cups runneth over" .  I feel so uncomfortable when I'm speaking with a man and I can feel his eyes moving up and down my body, especially when it's in church.  And some of the most despicable staring has come from "men of Jesus."  What would Jesus say to these men????????


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## Shimmie (Mar 13, 2007)

He_Leads_I_follow said:
			
		

> Greetings Sisters
> 
> I'm new to the site and was glad to find a Christian forum. It's good to know I can get hair advice without the vulgarity .
> 
> ...


 
Yours as well.    This is a very sad situation.  It's not a game.


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## kbragg (Mar 13, 2007)

cocoberry10 said:
			
		

> When I was in church one Sunday, the pastor said, "you know, men weren't made to be monogamous. I mean it's really not natural."


 
Ooooh, that's a LIE from the PIT OF HELL! Ask your Pastor if that's so, why GOD made Adam and EVE, NOT ADAM, EVE, SARAH, & REBECCA! I'm so tired of these hoish men making excuses for their lusts! They need to get SAVED! Sorry, but this makes me mad, I wanna punch your Pastor in the mouth for lying from the pulpit like that!!! See, now I gotta repent for wanting to punch a Pastor (that is IF he really is God's annointed and not acting of his own accord) Oh my gosh! JESUS even says in the New Testament that God designed a man and ONE wife, NOT TWO!!!! The FIRST instance of a man with more than one wife was a SINNER WHO HAD MURDERED A YOUNG MAN! STOOPID! Oops! Seriously, men need to grow up and stop letting their Johnson's lead them! I don't care if they are "just a man" that's BS (Bacon Shrimp)!!!! SIN IS SIN FLESH IS FLESH and men need to grow up get saved and walk it the Spirit! Jesus NEVER stared at a woman's hooties and said "I'm only human"  why? Cause He did what please the Father! He walked in the Spirit! Men are so stinkin' childish and it burns me up! I do agree, it really bugs me how in some churches the woman has to be the one who dresses modestly but no focus on the man. That's why I appreciate my Pastor. He will mention about dressing as a Christian woman should, but he also talks to the men about lusting! One Sunday he said "Some men are probably thinking, she shouldn't be dressed like that. Well you shouldn't be looking! Hello!" I got happy! 




> And lastly, they always act like women are trying to get men to ogle them. I hate when I feel men staring at my breasts (I am 5'2, 98-100 lbs and wear a D/DD cup, so you can imagine the ogling). Obviously, no matter what I do, my "cups runneth over" . I feel so uncomfortable when I'm speaking with a man and I can feel his eyes moving up and down my body, especially when it's in church. And some of the most despicable staring has come from "men of Jesus." What would Jesus say to these men????????


 
Next time you catch one looking, you need to tell him to get saved! I'm a D sistah too, I know about ample cups! No matter what I wear, these boobs ain't going anywhere! No we as women KNOW though that some things shouldn't be worn! Yesterday I saw a sistah at Walmart. She had a ""Got God?" tishirt on, but it was so tight you could see her exact shape, PLUS she had on skin tight Daisy Dukes! Obviously that was sending a very conflicting message lol. Now it's still a man's responsibily to control his eyes, but my goodness, poor guys would be running into stuff all the time cause they have to always look up! Yeah, men are gonna lust no matter what but we ain't gotta help! I certainly don't want some nasty perv lusting after me


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## Shimmie (Mar 13, 2007)

cocoberry10 said:
			
		

> I totally agree with this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> If beautiful women are his "weakness," then stating that during a sermon would be fine. However, it's the way he says it that's a problem "I did what any normal, heterosexual man would do."
> 
> That's becoming my problem with the church. I've actually prayed about this, because at times, Christianity feels sexist. And of course, if Christianity feels sexist, than we often start to attribute those same qualities to God, our Heavenly Father. But the reality is that "His ways are higher than ours."
> ...


 
Hey Sweet Coco.... I just asked Him and he said He'd have a talk with them.  

I hear you loud and clear...so vent away, little angel.  ((( hugs )))   

You're so right about the double-standard.   However, I think what we as women are being asked to do so to make it easier for the men; for they have the problem with the visuals and the urges.   

You and I (and many others) do see the women in church who do not bear the armour of modesty.   They are exposing cleavage; top and bottom (low rider jeans); short skirts and don't let summer come.... Oh Sweet Jesus!  And they approach the men and they know full well what they are doing.  

Personally, I stay covered up.  I'm also a D/DD and when I'm in public (work or church, etc.)  You'd never know I had large breasts.  I wear a minimizer bra which pulls me in closer; in addtion to that, I wear a blazer jacket or loose blouses; sometimes a vest.   It's a bit uncomfortable, but because my breasts do draw attention from both men and women, I 'minimize' their appearance to avoid the stares.  

More sister hugs... I understand how you feel.  It's not easy being gorgeous, is it?    Oh well........  We just have to save it all for our husbands.


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## live2bgr8 (Mar 13, 2007)

This is why the word says we need to pray for our leaders. We all are weak and fall short of the glory of God.

If you're in a small congregation maybe one of the male congregants could speak to him. Not in an accusing way, but in a helpful: "are-you-really-struggling-with-this-issue? well-let-me-pray-for-you" kind of way. If not, hopefully one of his close advisors would be able to sharpen him. 

Some people would not respond to such correction, but if he is a true man of God he will...


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## live2bgr8 (Mar 13, 2007)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> Hey Sweet Coco.... I just asked Him and he said He'd have a talk with them.
> 
> I hear you loud and clear...so vent away, little angel. ((( hugs )))
> 
> ...


 
ITA-- I think that Christian women also have a responsibillity to help our brothers in this way. We can dress attractively with modesty and wisdom.


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## ThursdayGirl (Mar 13, 2007)

cocoberry10 said:
			
		

> I totally agree with this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> If beautiful women are his "weakness," then stating that during a sermon would be fine.  However, it's the way he says it that's a problem "I did what any normal, heterosexual man would do."
> 
> That's becoming my problem with the church.  I've actually prayed about this, because at times, Christianity feels sexist.  And of course, if Christianity feels sexist, than we often start to attribute those same qualities to God, our Heavenly Father.  But the reality is that "His ways are higher than ours."
> ...



I agree with your post.  I would have to ask the pastor about the bolded part though.  I think man was meant to be monogamous.  I mean... God didn't make adam... and eve...and ellen...and eunice... and eartha... and .... you get my point.  It was Adam...and Eve.  period... until sin crept in.

ETA... sorry kbragg, I didn't realize you had already said this.  I agree.


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## meek&quietspirit (Mar 13, 2007)

My husband came accross an article on a website regarding Christian men winning the war on lust during these times.  He made a copy of it, placed it in an envelope and gave it to our Pastor.  My DH felt pretty compfy doing this cause our Pastor had, for some reason, gravitated towards him.  

Well, he never mentioned it or talked about it.  Obviously, it had no impact on his behavior, even if he did read it. 

And by the way, he now treats DH like he has the plague.

Some members have complained, but when they do, they are labelled as trouble makers or warned not to "touch The Lord's annointed."  If we see that the Pastor is wrong, we are to just pray for him and not _*judge him*_.


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## alexstin (Mar 13, 2007)

meek&quietspirit said:
			
		

> My husband came accross an article on a website regarding Christian men winning the war on lust during these times.  He made a copy of it, placed it in an envelope and gave it to our Pastor.  My DH felt pretty compfy doing this cause our Pastor had, for some reason, gravitated towards him.
> 
> Well, he never mentioned it or talked about it.  Obviously, it had no impact on his behavior, even if he did read it.
> 
> ...


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## Shimmie (Mar 13, 2007)

alexstin said:
			
		

> meek&quietspirit said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## alexstin (Mar 13, 2007)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> alexstin said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## PaperClip (Mar 13, 2007)

kelouis75 said:
			
		

> ITA-- I think that Christian women also have a responsibillity to help our brothers in this way. We can dress attractively with modesty and wisdom.


 
Whoa! Red flag here!

Whatever happened to self-control on the brothers' part? And trust, I was raised right on how to dress modestly...but not to do so to "help" our brothers but to PROTECT myself.... not just from the brothers, but from the negative aspects of society.

I wrote a thesis about churchwomen and one of the main books I used is called _If It Wasn't for the Women: Black Women's Experience and Womanist Culture in Church and Community _written by Cheryl Townsend Gilkes. Having been raised COGIC (Church of God in Christ), it was interesting to read in this book the particular reasons for certain dress codes, e.g., black skirts, white blouse; dressing modestly, etc. Cheryl explained that during Jim Crow and the openly racist and sexist society back in the day, when women evangelists would travel across the nation to preach and teach, they were told to do so as a way for people of the world, esp. men, to know that they were women of the cloth, chaste women, if you will, and they would not be bothered. 

So saying "help" the brothers implies to me that the men are weaker. The Lord chose the men to lead so I'm sure the Lord equipped them with the capacity to have self-control.


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## alexstin (Mar 13, 2007)

I don't think it means they are weaker but they are visual.  It's a whole lot harder for a brother in a bible study to keep his mind on the Father when he's surrounded by sisters with boobs and butts hanging out. Just as it would be a whole lot harder for a sister to keep her mind right if every time she gets around a brother he's whispering sweet nothings in her ear.

Brothers and sisters in Christ have a responsibility to protect each other. We are not an island to ourselves, we interact with the opposite sex all the time.


*Note: That's not to say that we don't have personal responsibility, because we do have to keep our ownselves in check FIRST.*



			
				RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> Whoa! Red flag here!
> 
> Whatever happened to self-control on the brothers' part? And trust, I was raised right on how to dress modestly...but not to do so to "help" our brothers but to PROTECT myself.... not just from the brothers, but from the negative aspects of society.
> 
> ...


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## PaperClip (Mar 13, 2007)

alexstin said:
			
		

> I don't think it means they are weaker but they are visual. It's a whole lot harder for a brother in a bible study to keep his mind on the Father when he's surrounded by sisters with boobs and butts hanging out. Just as it would be a whole lot harder for a sister to keep her mind right if every time she gets around a brother he's whispering sweet nothings in her ear.
> 
> Brothers and sisters in Christ have a responsibility to protect each other.


 
I understand what you're saying...but true change/transformation/wholehearted practice doesn't "stick", if you will, until the individual embraces that thing for themselves. For example, a sister comes to church dressed "inappropriately". The church mothers can tell her all day long (with the right spirit) to dress more modestly. If the sister is sincere, she will obey, but maybe not fully understand..and she may even rebel and not come back to the church. It doesn't "stick" or have that heart transformation until the Holy Spirit has His way in her mind to recognize the inner beauty of modest dress...that it is pleasing to the Lord and so on.... I know that even after I do my "armpit" and "jump" (praise and worship!) checks on an outfit and I think it's ok, the Holy Spirit will check me if something is off that I may not even see up front...and no time has it been because a brother needed "helping" out with his issues. I'll even go as far to say that the "help" for the brothers might be a beneficial byproduct of my modest dress, but the mentality has to come from my mind to fully embrace it and obey it.


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## alexstin (Mar 13, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> I understand what you're saying...but true change/transformation/wholehearted practice doesn't "stick", if you will, until the individual embraces that thing for themselves. For example, a sister comes to church dressed "inappropriately". The church mothers can tell her all day long (with the right spirit) to dress more modestly. If the sister is sincere, she will obey, but maybe not fully understand..and she may even rebel and not come back to the church. It doesn't "stick" or have that heart transformation until the Holy Spirit has His way in her mind to recognize the inner beauty of modest dress...that it is pleasing to the Lord and so on.... I know that even after I do my "armpit" and "jump" (praise and worship!) checks on an outfit and I think it's ok, the Holy Spirit will check me if something is off that I may not even see up front...and no time has it been because a brother needed "helping" out with his issues. I'll even go as far to say that the "help" for the brothers might be a beneficial byproduct of my modest dress, but the mentality has to come from my mind to fully embrace it and obey it.



I agree that's why I said we have to check ourselves first.


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## Southernbella. (Mar 13, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> I understand what you're saying...but true change/transformation/wholehearted practice doesn't "stick", if you will, until the individual embraces that thing for themselves. For example, a sister comes to church dressed "inappropriately". The church mothers can tell her all day long (with the right spirit) to dress more modestly. If the sister is sincere, she will obey, but maybe not fully understand..and she may even rebel and not come back to the church. It doesn't "stick" or have that heart transformation until the Holy Spirit has His way in her mind to recognize the inner beauty of modest dress...that it is pleasing to the Lord and so on.... I know that even after I do my "armpit" and "jump" (praise and worship!) checks on an outfit and I think it's ok, the Holy Spirit will check me if something is off that I may not even see up front...and no time has it been because a brother needed "helping" out with his issues.* I'll even go as far to say that the "help" for the brothers might be a beneficial byproduct of my modest dress, but the mentality has to come from my mind to fully embrace it and obey it.*


 
ITA! Men have to be held accountable for their thought lives. Blame-shifting might help them get through the day, but it won't do a thing for their relationship with Christ.


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## Shimmie (Mar 13, 2007)

alexstin said:
			
		

> I don't think it means they are weaker but they are visual. It's a whole lot harder for a brother in a bible study to keep his mind on the Father when he's surrounded by sisters with boobs and butts hanging out. Just as it would be a whole lot harder for a sister to keep her mind right if every time she gets around a brother he's whispering sweet nothings in her ear.
> 
> Brothers and sisters in Christ have a responsibility to protect each other. We are not an island to ourselves, we interact with the opposite sex all the time.
> 
> *Note: That's not to say that we don't have personal responsibility, because we do*


 
Exactly.  We all know full well and see it everyday, the way women 'use' what they have to get attention; especially when there is a 'spirit' in the Church seeking which man can be tempted and fallen.  Please, this spirit of seduction is 'fixed' in the Church...front row center.  Waiting for the 'cue' to do what it does...seduce and conquer. 

Ever notice how the word of God forewarns the MEN to be aware of the temptress....the woman,  Proverbs 5 warns of 'the woman'.   

Even the Song of Solomon speaks solely of how it's the woman's attractiveness that has this man captured.   It was Deliah's beauty that entrapped Samson (the man was wrong and full of his flesh and his parents spoiled him rotten....Samson was a show-off) but he got trapped by Deliah...a woman using her beauty and form as her weapon.

Bathsheba...her beauty bathing that caught King David's full eyes and attention and held him captive to the point of murder to cover his sin. 

Granted, God does not take it lightly about a man's behavior; over and over he is warned.  And the Pastor mentioned in this post is totally without excuse.  Totally!!

However, let's face it..... as women we hold the key to a man's captivity.  Take a look at yourself in the mirror and figure it out.  We use it all the time; especially when we 'want' something (both in and out of Christ Jesus).   

For the Godly women, I uphold with love and warmth.  But I see too much showing through the clothing of too many women in church and it just ain't right to do this.   Men do look.    The visual babies.  We love them though.  But even the infant baby boys ... look.   Our precious Men!


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## Shimmie (Mar 13, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> I understand what you're saying...but true change/transformation/wholehearted practice doesn't "stick", if you will, until the individual embraces that thing for themselves. For example, a sister comes to church dressed "inappropriately". The church mothers can tell her all day long (with the right spirit) to dress more modestly. If the sister is sincere, she will obey, but maybe not fully understand..and she may even rebel and not come back to the church. It doesn't "stick" or have that heart transformation until the Holy Spirit has His way in her mind to recognize the inner beauty of modest dress...that it is pleasing to the Lord and so on.... I know that even after I do my "armpit" and "jump" (praise and worship!) checks on an outfit and I think it's ok, the Holy Spirit will check me if something is off that I may not even see up front...and no time has it been because a brother needed "helping" out with his issues. I'll even go as far to say that the "help" for the brothers might be a beneficial byproduct of my modest dress, but the mentality has to come from my mind to fully embrace it and obey it.


 
The 'mentality' is questionable...it's almost a cop-out as an excuse to continue with the immodest dressing.  I'm not hearing it.   *Women know how to 'dress' for church. *  It doesn't take rocket science or a deep revelation to figure it out and to have the mentality to dress right.  

*Now Granted there may be a given hardship or situation* where she is wearing all that she has at the time.   But women still 'know' what they can and can't wear.   Women do know how to dress for Church.    

If I sound hard about it, it's about time that someone speaks up.  Because I see too much mess that has really gone too far.  And in the type of format we have in Church with the music and praise.... Uh-Uh   

I see more booty poppin and top shelf bouncing than I care to be aware of in too MANY churches.   It's worse than a carnal music video....and it's sad.    Thank God for the Choir members in any church who wear robes to cover it all up.   Not every body 'jumping' is praising God.


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## PaperClip (Mar 13, 2007)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> The 'mentality' is questionable...it's almost a cop-out as an excuse to continue with the immodest dressing. I'm not hearing it. *Women know how to 'dress' for church. *It doesn't take rocket science or a deep revelation to figure it out and to have the mentality to dress right.
> 
> *Now Granted there may be a given hardship or situation* where she is wearing all that she has at the time. But women still 'know' what they can and can't wear. Women do know how to dress for Church.
> 
> ...


 
"Not every body 'jumping' is praising God." This made me laugh 'cause it's true!  And they're so easy to spot!

I used to think women knew how to dress for church... I think most of them basically do, but there's a new generation out here who have NEVER been exposed to church-going.... One of my sister-friends and I had a conversation about this sometime ago. We joked about how even when we were in elementary school, it was rare to walk up on somebody and they not know anything about church, even if it was a different denomination. But these days, some of these girls have NO CLUE about going to church, much less dressing for church.

I look at the young girls around my church these days and it's really sad because they come to church in not just pants (could NEVER do this growing up) but jeans, and then tight sometimes, with the shirts and at times a little midriff showing.... There's a parent or guardian ALLOWING this, which means that the parent also has no clue or doesn't care. 

Just look at the TV court shows... they're not dressing much better on those shows, either, which leads me to think that there's a deficiency in information about what's respectable for the house of the Lord.


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## Southernbella. (Mar 13, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> Whoa! Red flag here!
> 
> Whatever happened to self-control on the brothers' part? And trust, I was raised right on how to dress modestly...but not to do so to "help" our brothers but to PROTECT myself.... not just from the brothers, but from the negative aspects of society...
> 
> So saying "help" the brothers implies to me that the men are weaker. The Lord chose the men to lead so I'm sure the Lord equipped them with the capacity to have self-control.


 


> But, sure enough, he starts talking bout how he and his wife were out this past weekend and saw some lady with a very tight teeshirt on. The shirt said _too blessed to be stressed_. He said he did what any "normal, herteosexual, man would do, he stared at her chest."
> 
> Then he goes on to say that while walking with the college president, he didn't want him to notice him checking out the young, pretty ladies with the mini-skirts on, so he just keeps looking straight ahead and talking with the president. (He won't scope other women with the president, but he will with his wife)?erplexed


 
Christian women can (and should) dress modestly all day long in the church, but Christian men still need to learn self-control because, like this pastor, they all have to go out into the world every day. Who are they going to blame for their lusting then?  

Furthermore, there is new research that suggests that the old adage (or copout, if you will) that men are more visual is NOT true.


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## Shimmie (Mar 13, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> "Not every body 'jumping' is praising God." This made me laugh 'cause it's true! And they're so easy to spot!
> 
> I used to think women knew how to dress for church... I think most of them basically do, but there's a new generation out here who have NEVER been exposed to church-going.... One of my sister-friends and I had a conversation about this sometime ago. We joked about how even when we were in elementary school, it was rare to walk up on somebody and they not know anything about church, even if it was a different denomination. But these days, some of these girls have NO CLUE about going to church, much less dressing for church.
> 
> ...


 
 Right back at you.  Let me tell you, I NEVER saw a bouncing chest until I was in Church.    I just didn't.   Even in our African Dance Troupe where there is PLENTY of jumping, twisting and high energy movement, we had on proper Dance gear underneath (both bra/pants), it was mandatory.   It was about the Dance, not body parts appearing to jump out of our costumes.   It was a distraction to the audience and the Dance story itsself.  Hence some of the women in the Church kinda scared me. 

Know what?  *I do not jump in Church*.  I won't   Not even in my minimizer bra,  I just won't do anything to draw attention to myself.  I truly believe it's seeing the women who do bounce makes me very self-conscious.  I'll clap, shout, Praise God with my voice, and do a slight dance movement...but that's it.  I'm very low key.  You'd never know it was me, as 'loud' as I am here on this forum.  I look so sweet and innocent... 

And so right you are about the parent/guardians who do not seem to focus or care about what their children wear.   

As for court shows... You are so right.   Some of them need to fix their weaves and and NOT wear tank tops. And how do you tell the males from the females nowadays on these shows?  Even Judge Mathis was confused


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## PaperClip (Mar 13, 2007)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> Right back at you. Let me tell you, I NEVER saw a bouncing chest until I was in Church.  I just didn't. Even in our African Dance Troupe where there is PLENTY of jumping, twisting and high energy movement, we had on proper Dance gear underneath (both bra/pants), it was mandatory. It was about the Dance, not body parts appearing to jump out of our costumes. It was a distraction to the audience and the Dance story itsself. Hence some of the women in the Church kinda scared me.
> 
> Know what? *I do not jump in Church*. I won't  Not even in my minimizer bra, I just won't do anything to draw attention to myself. I truly believe it's seeing the women who do bounce makes me very self-conscious. I'll clap, shout, Praise God with my voice, and do a slight dance movement...but that's it. I'm very low key. You'd never know it was me, as 'loud' as I am here on this forum. I look so sweet and innocent...
> 
> ...


 
And let me also state for the record that can directly relate to being big-chested (and therefore, jumping) in church until my breast reduction five years ago.... That's why I never played with the "holy hug" because... (sigh)...well, ya know.


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## meek&quietspirit (Mar 13, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> And let me also state for the record that can directly relate to being big-chested (and therefore, jumping) in church until my breast reduction five years ago.... That's why I never played with the "holy hug" because... (sigh)...well, ya know.


 
I can't thank everyone enough for your comments.

There are so many things that go on in some of our church's that do need to be addressed.  Sometimes, it seems as if the ways of this world are beginning to take over.

Sweetheart, don't EEEeeeeven get me started about the "holy hug."
My DH and I have agreed that there can be no frontal hugging and kissing with the oppisite sex unless it's family.  We've got one sister who will hug the men, but shake the women's hands...

Thank God for the Christian Forum where I can let it out and get some Biblical help and guidance.  Cause I've been holding in so much for so long.


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## Shimmie (Mar 13, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> And let me also state for the record that can directly relate to being big-chested (and therefore, jumping) in church until my breast reduction five years ago.... That's why I never played with the "holy hug" because... (sigh)...well, ya know.


 
Oh No....  Not You too?!!!??    I thought I had issues and needed deliverance.  I won't hug unless I really 'know' the person. Oh Lawdddy...   It twan't just me...


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## alexstin (Mar 13, 2007)

lauren450 said:
			
		

> Christian women can (and should) dress modestly all day long in the church, but Christian men still need to learn self-control because, like this pastor, they all have to go out into the world every day. Who are they going to blame for their lusting then?
> 
> *Furthermore, there is new research that suggests that the old adage (or copout, if you will) that men are more visual is NOT true*.



I'd be interested in reading that though I don't believe all men use that as a cop out. Where can I find it?


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## Southernbella. (Mar 13, 2007)

alexstin said:
			
		

> I'd be interested in reading that though I don't believe all men use that as a cop out. Where can I find it?


 
Sure!
http://mednews.wustl.edu/tips/page/normal/7319.html

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/sex/dn10213-women-become-sexually-aroused-as-quickly-as-men.html

I didn't mean to imply that all men use it as a copout, but I do feel that it's used by some men and women to justify some behaviors that have more to do with social conditioning than biology. That's a different thread, though!


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## alexstin (Mar 13, 2007)

Gotcha!I agree with the way you restated that.

 I look at this way. Both men and women may be turned on by erotic images BUT men are the ones that seek out those images in magazines and on the internet more so than women.  Playgirl is not nearly as popular as Playboy. 

They are also more likely to ask their wives to "model" bedroom attire.


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## StrawberryQueen (Mar 13, 2007)

lauren450 said:
			
		

> Christian women can (and should) dress modestly all day long in the church, but Christian men still need to learn self-control because, like this pastor, they all have to go out into the world every day. Who are they going to blame for their lusting then?
> 
> Furthermore, there is new research that suggests that the old adage (or copout, if you will) that men are more visual is NOT true.


 
I agree you 100%.  Christian women do need to dress modestly.  But, I can see why some churches relax their dress codes, in order to make folsk feel comfortable.  A lot of people who come to church are sitting up inthere for the *1st time ever*, and sometimes *don't know* or have the *good sense* to "dress accordingly."  Should they be turned out-*no*.  

But I think once folks become stronger in their Christian walk, they become more aware of what is and what is not appropriate.  I think people need to be patient with them and not judge them, because honestly, all it's going to do is drive them away and give them a negative impression of what the Church and a "Christian" is supposed to be.  We are not all imbued with the same knowledge, be it worldly or Biblically.  _I'm not disagreeing with you here BTW_! 

And this whole this "men are visual," stuff is crap.  It may be true to a degree but folks like to use it as an excuse for inappropriate behavior and lack of self control.  Just like "boys will be boys."  Men need to be just as sexually responsible and "pure" as the women do.


			
				Shimmie said:
			
		

> The 'mentality' is questionable...it's almost a cop-out as an excuse to continue with the immodest dressing. I'm not hearing it. Women know how to 'dress' for church. It doesn't take rocket science or a deep revelation to figure it out and to have the mentality to dress right.
> 
> Now Granted there may be a given hardship or situation where she is wearing all that she has at the time. But women still 'know' what they can and can't wear. Women do know how to dress for Church.
> 
> ...


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## Southernbella. (Mar 13, 2007)

alexstin said:
			
		

> Gotcha!I agree with the way you restated that.
> 
> I look at this way. Both men and women may be turned on by erotic images BUT men are the ones that seek out those images in magazines and on the internet more so than women. Playgirl is not nearly as popular as Playboy.
> 
> They are also more likely to ask their wives to "model" bedroom attire.


 
 @ bedroom attire. Yeah, I can't see asking my dh to dress up in anything.

Unfortunately, though, the number of women who view porn has grown in large numbers due to the internet. I believe this is where social conditioning comes in. Since they can now do it in private, women are seeking visual stimuli in the same way men do. 

Here's an article on that:
http://www.trueu.org/dorms/womenshall/A000000490.cfm


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## alexstin (Mar 13, 2007)

lauren450 said:
			
		

> @ bedroom attire. *Yeah, I can't see asking my dh to dress up in anything.*
> Unfortunately, though, the number of women who view porn has grown in large numbers due to the internet. I believe this is where social conditioning comes in. Since they can now do it in private, women are seeking visual stimuli in the same way men do.
> 
> Here's an article on that:
> http://www.trueu.org/dorms/womenshall/A000000490.cfm



Thanks for the link and so true about the bold.


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## StrawberryQueen (Mar 13, 2007)

alexstin said:
			
		

> Gotcha!I agree with the way you restated that.
> 
> I look at this way. Both men and women may be turned on by erotic images BUT men are the ones that seek out those images in magazines and on the internet more so than women. Playgirl is not nearly as popular as Playboy.
> 
> They are also more likely to ask their wives to "model" bedroom attire.


I do agree with that, but I think the main reason there is not a huge avenue for women to have the same viewing pleasures as men (with regard to magazines, porn, etc) is that women are wired differently and appreciate different things visually.

A man can get turned on by seeing a young looking girl wearing a lb of makeup and a schoolgirl uniform.  Or seeing a women naked and bent over a chair.  It's all good for them.

A women doesn't find the same things sexy regarding men.  OTHER (homosexual) men do.  Most women would be turned off by seeing a man naked and bent over a chair.   And a boy-ish looking man wearing a salior suit...uhhhh, excuse me?   Most people who market adult products haven't realized this yet, which is why women have been "left out" of the loop.  A man with a shirt off, or a man doing manual labor (clothed) is more more attractive to (most) women.

Sorry for getting so off topic!   I just read an article about this.


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## kbragg (Mar 13, 2007)

StrawberryQueen said:
			
		

> Most women would be turned off by seeing a man naked and bent over a chair. And a boy-ish looking man wearing a salior suit...uhhhh, excuse me?


 
        

Why you tryna make us all sick!?!?! 

I don't think women are equally as visual as men. I mean, what would turn a woman on more? Seeing a man topless mowing a lawn, or that same man with his shirt on singing her a LOVE song, or telling her she's beautiful!?!?! Hello!Why ya'll think people like Genuiwine, Justin Timberlake, Jon b, groups like Silk, Jagged Edge (Let's Get Married OOH WEE!) etc are so popular? Let me stop, I'm getting too carnal! 

Seriously, that's how the playas get the women. By telling her she's beautiful, sexy, the only woman he has eyes for (liar) etc. Ok back on topic!


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## alexstin (Mar 13, 2007)

kbragg said:
			
		

> Why you tryna make us all sick!?!?!
> 
> I don't think women are equally as visual as men. I mean, what would turn a woman on more? Seeing a man topless mowing a lawn, *or that same man with his shirt on singing her a LOVE song, or telling her she's beautiful!?!?! *Hello!Why ya'll think people like Genuiwine, Justin Timberlake, Jon b, groups like Silk, Jagged Edge (Let's Get Married OOH WEE!) etc are so popular? Let me stop, I'm getting too carnal!
> 
> Seriously, that's how the playas get the women. By telling her she's beautiful, sexy, the only woman he has eyes for (liar) etc. Ok back on topic!




See that's what I think. Not that she wouldn't mind the topless guy but I think she would prefer the other.


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## alexstin (Mar 13, 2007)

StrawberryQueen said:
			
		

> I do agree with that, but I think the main reason there is not a huge avenue for women to have the same viewing pleasures as men (with regard to magazines, porn, etc) is that women are wired differently and appreciate different things visually.
> 
> A man can get turned on by seeing a young looking girl wearing a lb of makeup and a schoolgirl uniform.  Or seeing a women naked and bent over a chair.  It's all good for them.
> 
> ...



 Yeah, NOT SEXY!!!!


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## PaperClip (Mar 13, 2007)

kbragg said:
			
		

> Why you tryna make us all sick!?!?!
> 
> I don't think women are equally as visual as men. I mean, what would turn a woman on more? Seeing a man topless mowing a lawn, or that same man with his shirt on singing her a LOVE song, or telling her she's beautiful!?!?! Hello!Why ya'll think people like Genuiwine, Justin Timberlake, Jon b, groups like Silk, Jagged Edge (Let's Get Married OOH WEE!) etc are so popular? Let me stop, I'm getting too carnal!
> 
> Seriously, that's how the playas get the women. By telling her she's beautiful, sexy, the only woman he has eyes for (liar) etc. Ok back on topic!


 
Um.... I wouldn't mind the topless buff man (husband) mowing the lawn.... 

I appreciate a hard-working man...who can bring home the bacon, fry it up, and I'll set the table for him! But when it comes to singing and talking all sexy and whatnot, what works for me is when a brother can break down the stock market, the Iraq war, or international economy and that's more sexy to me than a "ooo wee" ANYDAY!


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## live2bgr8 (Mar 13, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> Whoa! Red flag here!
> 
> Whatever happened to self-control on the brothers' part? And trust, I was raised right on how to dress modestly...but not to do so to "help" our brothers but to PROTECT myself.... not just from the brothers, but from the negative aspects of society.
> 
> ...


 
I agree. Men have a responsibillity, too. For sure. Some men would be turned on by an ear... or a nose... But there are very few men on this forum so I was speaking to the women here. As women in Christ we do have a responsibillity to dress modestly.


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## Afrolinda (Mar 13, 2007)

LadyR said:
			
		

> For me the problem is that we put our "Pastors" on this high pestal. "He shouldn't do this, he shouldn't be doing that" that we forget that they are males first and foremost. No he shouldn't be looking at ladies chest be he married for 36 years or 3 months. However, that he can get up in front of the church and say yes I did it, I am human I have repented let's move on. He a way it shows what we don't want to see: a human pastor.
> 
> I can say all of that because my husband got up yesterday and in his sermon to make a point stated that " my wife and I do not have a pefect marriage, we are not there yet, there are times when we fuss and fight and there were times that I *cussed*, however, I know that is wrong and we are getting better because I realized that I am not being an example to our son or the neighbors". Was he right to say that yes he was, again it proved that yes Pastors are human.


 
I agree with you, he is just a man. If you guys only knew what some pastors and priesters do here in Belgium you guys would freak out, I think people should stop treating them as if they were angels, they are just human.


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## Choclatcotton (Mar 13, 2007)

Matthew 5:25 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her HATH COMMITTED ADULTERY!!!  with her already in his heart.  THe words of Christ.  If he could would he?  You should follow your pastor as he follows Christ.


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## Christa438 (Mar 13, 2007)

Are you being touchy? I don't know...maybe...maybe not. Do you really think he was being sinful or lustful?

Well now...  I have to say that *even I* have looked at some women's chest before that I thought were "blessed" or big/huge.  I'm not a lesbian nor was I lusting.  Some things just catch your attention, visually. It's human and natural to me to notice things or see things with your eyes. For me, this is just the truth. Of course you ought not stare or lust over it. Even when you are walking out in public, you can look at someone in the face and see that they are pretty/beautiful or handsome. If i was in walmart shopping and a handsome person or good-looking man walked by me, I may notice but at the same time I will not turn to my hubby standing right next to me and say, "He was so handsome, wasn't he"    Of course I'm going to continue shopping and looking at products. And if you look at a male or female, you can see that she has a nice figure or that he is muscular. [ I remember one day i saw this girl and she looked slim or thick but her behind stuck out so far, real far. It looked out of proportion to me and I wondered to myself how did she get that like that, just genetics i guess. i mentioned this episode just to say that even I noticed her "asset" I guess] If a whole bunch of ladies walked by wearing mini skirts, I'm sure a man or woman would notice just like I'd notice if a whole bunch of men walked by with muscle shirts and jeans on. Would I keep looking straight? yes, i hope so. Would I turn my head to check them out some more? no...I hope not.  

Personally, I do pay attention to my surroundings and I pay attention to the people in my surroundings. this is something i was taught to do since I was a little girl by my (paranoid) father  . i guess he felt I needed to be able to watch my back and perhaps to identify anybody if I had to.


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## live2bgr8 (Mar 13, 2007)

StrawberryQueen said:
			
		

> I agree you 100%. Christian women do need to dress modestly. But, I can see why some churches relax their dress codes, in order to make folsk feel comfortable. A lot of people who come to church are sitting up inthere for the *1st time ever*, and sometimes *don't know* or have the *good sense* to "dress accordingly." Should they be turned out-*no*.
> 
> But I think once folks become stronger in their Christian walk, they become more aware of what is and what is not appropriate. I think people need to be patient with them and not judge them, because honestly, all it's going to do is drive them away and give them a negative impression of what the Church and a "Christian" is supposed to be. We are not all imbued with the same knowledge, be it worldly or Biblically. _I'm not disagreeing with you here BTW_!
> 
> And this whole this "men are visual," stuff is crap. It may be true to a degree but folks like to use it as an excuse for inappropriate behavior and lack of self control. Just like "boys will be boys."  Men need to be just as sexually responsible and "pure" as the women do.


 
Yes, I agree with you. (Pretty much the whole post). 

1) Both men and women need to be aware of their appearance. 
2) We each will be accountable for the sins we commit. No trying to find a scape goat then. erplexed  God knows and see it all.
3) If  people aren't dressed "appropriately"-- and they are known to be visitors. Of course--by all means-- they should be welcomed into the congregation with open arms.  
4) If a person is a regular attendant dressing a little out there, they should still be welcomed. But in this situation prayer and a gentle suggestion probably is needed.

I will share a story: when I was a _babe_ in Christ (literally and figuratively  ), I would wear short flowing skirts... Sometimes long tight skirts...  and sometimes both. I thought I was dressing fine (or fione as some may say)... 

One time I visited a church, and this lady put a long robe over me. I was freaked out-- and I did not come back.

But the church that accepted me where I was (for who I was)-- well-- that's where I grew. They kept preaching and I kept coming... No one ever told me (point blank) that I was dressing immodestly... 

But as I began to mature in the word, I started to see how dressing modestly was a wise choice, both for my spiritual health and for the spiritual health of the people around me.

I think that when people go to church, they should have as few "distractions" as possible so they can get closer to God. I just wanted to be one less distraction.

That's where I was coming from when I shared my first post on "Christian women helping their brothers out".


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## StrawberryQueen (Mar 13, 2007)

kelouis75 said:
			
		

> Yes, I agree with you. (Pretty much the whole post).
> 
> 1) Both men and women need to be aware of their appearance.
> 2) We each will be accountable for the sins we commit. No trying to find a scape goat then. erplexed  God knows and see it all.
> ...


That's a wonderful way they "helped" you and continue to accept you.  I wish more people could be so open and accepting of others.


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## live2bgr8 (Mar 14, 2007)

StrawberryQueen said:
			
		

> That's a wonderful way they "helped" you and continue to accept you. I wish more people could be so open and accepting of others.


 
Yes  Much of their love is why I am a follower of Christ.


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## Shimmie (Mar 14, 2007)

kbragg said:
			
		

> Why you tryna make us all sick!?!?!
> 
> I don't think women are equally as visual as men. I mean, what would turn a woman on more? Seeing a man topless mowing a lawn, or that same man with his shirt on singing her a LOVE song, or telling her she's beautiful!?!?! Hello!Why ya'll think people like Genuiwine, Justin Timberlake, Jon b, groups like Silk, Jagged Edge (Let's Get Married OOH WEE!) etc are so popular? Let me stop, I'm getting too carnal!
> 
> *Seriously, that's how the playas get the women. By telling her she's beautiful, sexy, the only woman he has eyes for (liar) etc. Ok back on topic*!


 
Now this is true.  It's the oldest 'trick' in the world and was used successfully long before men were 'buff' as they are now.  If you look at the 'heart throbs' of years past (in the old movies), NONE of them really had the 'buff' bodies.... well a few did  

But the eyes and the words and the way they spoke made one's heart a flutter...   

Examples:   Sidney Poiter....  (My man! )  And he has a beautiful frame, especially his long legs.  But when he talks.... I listen.  I am a captive audience of Mr. Sidney.  This man takes refinement, distinction; and sheer handsome to the Heavens.  

Richard Burton.... His refinement in speech and his blue eyes....
Charleton Heston....Deep resonating voice...

I like the guy who now plays' Joan Clayton's boyfriend (on Girlfriends).  He's so handsome and I love his laugh and the way he talks. 

These are just examples of men who can capture with just talking...


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## baby42 (Mar 14, 2007)

meek&quietspirit said:
			
		

> Yesterday, our Pastor was preaching an excellent sermon.
> 
> But, sure enough, he starts talking bout how he and his wife were out this past weekend and saw some lady with a very tight teeshirt on. The shirt said _too blessed to be stressed_. He said he did what any "normal, herteosexual, man would do, he stared at her chest."
> 
> ...


 he acting like he still want things of the world he sould be praying on that not telling everybody that ant cute


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## czyfaith77 (Jul 5, 2007)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> Exactly. We all know full well and see it everyday, the way women 'use' what they have to get attention; especially when there is a 'spirit' in the Church seeking which man can be tempted and fallen. Please, this spirit of seduction is 'fixed' in the Church...front row center. Waiting for the 'cue' to do what it does...seduce and conquer.
> 
> Ever notice how the word of God forewarns the MEN to be aware of the temptress....the woman, Proverbs 5 warns of 'the woman'.
> 
> ...


 
I agree with you full heartedly Shimmie ( I alwasy enjoy your post  ).  You also brought up another good point:

*Bathsheba...her beauty bathing that caught King David's full eyes and attention and held him captive to the point of murder to cover his sin.* 

Bathsheba was doing what she would normally do which was probably the custom of her time. If David was in his rightful place, which was to be in the battlefield with his men as a leader would do then he may not have been faced with such a predicament.  It is also a flipside for Eve.  Both genders must know their place and their limitations.


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## dreamer26 (Jul 5, 2007)

meek&quietspirit said:
			
		

> Yesterday, our Pastor was preaching an excellent sermon.
> 
> But, sure enough, he starts talking bout how he and his wife were out this past weekend and saw some lady with a very tight teeshirt on. The shirt said _too blessed to be stressed_. He said he did what any "normal, herteosexual, man would do, he stared at her chest."
> 
> ...


 
Without hearing him myself, what I got from this is that he was showing the congregation that although he is the preacher he is still wrapped in flesh and if he's not careful he can fall just like anybody else.

Most times we think the preacher can't and don't sin, but they do they have the same struggles as you and I.  What makes my pastor a great pastor in my eyes (besides from bringing the word with authority) is that we does from time to time come clean with us and let us know his struggles and therefore it allows us to see him as a chosen vessel rather than the messiah.

If your pastor said it in the manner in which I hope he did, to show he's human and still need God to make it, then don't read to much into it and pray and left him up because the devil desire to bring down our leaders anyway that he can.  Also keep his wife and children lifted because if  the devil can't get the preacher he'll hit the next in line. (wife, children)

All I really can say is pray pray and pray. 

JMHO


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## schipperchow1 (Jul 7, 2007)

I am disturbed by the fact that the OP indicates that he talks about this every week & at Bible study, too She also refers to an incident with a single woman which I guess was sexual in nature.  

When I was 13, I was completely turned off to christianity & anything associated with it due to a pastor like this.  Also, "elders& deacons" tried to pick me up also.  BTW:  this was not a small church.  Ultimately the church split due to the pastor's infidelities & other sexual scandals.  I was lost spiritually many years due to the examples that these "men of god" portrayed to me as a young teen.  

I bring up my experience to highlight the responsibility that the office of teacher/elder/pastor contains.  They are held to a higher standard & God will hold them accountable.  Yes, he is human, but God has given us the holy spirit to empower us to live according to his word & the blood of Jesus to cover our sins when we repent & ask forgiveness.  It sounds as though he is lusting & he should repent & ask god to deliver him or show His strength in the face of his human weakness.  Then he would have a testimony to share with his congregation & help others obtain victory over lust & sexual sins.

I agree that he needs prayer and that someone that he respects should confront him in love about his speech even if he has not acted because like Nathan confronted David re: Bathsheba.    

Sorry so long.


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## dreamer26 (Jul 7, 2007)

schipperchow1 said:
			
		

> I am disturbed by the fact that the OP indicates that he talks about this every week & at Bible study, too She also refers to an incident with a single woman which I guess was sexual in nature.
> 
> When I was 13, I was completely turned off to christianity & anything associated with it due to a pastor like this. *Also, "elders& deacons" tried to pick me up also.* BTW: this was not a small church. Ultimately the church split due to the pastor's infidelities & other sexual scandals. I was lost spiritually many years due to the examples that these "men of god" portrayed to me as a young teen.
> 
> ...


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