# Awesome book "Heaven is for Real"



## Coffee (Jun 18, 2011)

I just finished reading this book and it's just wonderful. It's the true story of a almost 4 year old book, who while being operated on went to heaven. He tells his parents things that he nor any other 4 year old would have any idea about. His Dad is a Pastor. I don't want to give away too much, but it's so worth reading. I ordered mine from Walmart.


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## anartist4u2001 (Jun 19, 2011)

yeah my coworker said it's good. always other people. i should get it!


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## Nice & Wavy (Jun 19, 2011)

I agree, Coffee!  The book was fantastic.  I loved that the book spoke about the faith of the little boys parents as pastors and how God delivered them as a family.  Wonderful book, indeed!


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## yodie (Jun 20, 2011)

I need to pick this up. 'The Shack' is also a great book about God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.


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## Coffee (Jun 20, 2011)

yodie said:


> I need to pick this up. 'The Shack' is also a great book about God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.


 

I've read the Shack and it was a good book, even though it's fiction.


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## AtlantaJJ (Jun 21, 2011)

I bought this book for my father and he made me order copies for my sister, his wife and my son!!  We haven't read it yet, me and my son are reading the Book of John at the moment. It must be a great book!


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## ThatJerseyGirl (Jun 24, 2011)

yodie said:


> I need to pick this up. 'The Shack' is also a great book about God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.


 

yodie - I read that book.  That was an excellent book.  I think I will read it again.  Very good book.  Some parts of it made me cry.  I couldn't put the book down it was so good.


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## yodie (Jun 24, 2011)

ThatJerseyGirl, hey, I'm a Jersey girl. 

I loveeee that book. It really touch me. It may be fiction, but it seems like you'd really have to be inspired to write something like that. I have the audio CD's as well. I need to make time to listen to them. Man, this book really touched me.


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## ThatJerseyGirl (Jun 24, 2011)

yodie said:


> @ThatJerseyGirl, hey, I'm a Jersey girl.
> 
> I loveeee that book. It really touch me. It may be fiction, but it seems like you'd really have to be inspired to write something like that. I have the audio CD's as well. I need to make time to listen to them. Man, this book really touched me.


 
yodie - call me crazy, but at first, I did not know the book was fiction.  I visualized everything in that book.  It drew me in.  The parts that made me cry was when he saw his father; seeing his daughter; him and Jesus bonding together.  

yes, I will read this book again.  definitely a good read.  this time, I will go to the marina and read it there.  it's very peaceful on the water.


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## yodie (Jun 24, 2011)

Wait, that's the part that got me too. When he saw those bright lights blinking out of control. Man, I just cried! My dad is deceased and my grandma, his mom, just passed. I spoke about this book at her funeral and said that I can imagine that there was (he passed when I was five. I'm over 30 now) a group of lights gathered into a circle while my grandma stood high up and there was one whose lights just kept flickering... You know the rest. 

I know people say it's fiction, but I don't look at it that way. I believe this book showed me that some of our typical concepts of how we see things may not be word for word accurate.


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## Coffee (Jun 24, 2011)

yodie said:


> Wait, that's the part that got me too. When he saw those bright lights blinking out of control. Man, I just cried! My dad is deceased and my grandma, his mom, just passed. I spoke about this book at her funeral and said that I can imagine that there was (he passed when I was five. I'm over 30 now) a group of lights gathered into a circle while my grandma stood high up and there was one whose lights just kept flickering... You know the rest.
> 
> I know people say it's fiction, but I don't look at it that way. I believe this book showed me that some of our typical concepts of how we see things may not be word for word accurate.


 
I totally agree with ya'll on it being fiction, but really touching my heart when I read it. I too could imagine everything as I was reading it. I cried, I laughed and so enjoyed this book. Heaven is for real, just confirmed what I already knew. I had a visit from my deceased son about 6 months after he passed away. He first sat on the foot of the bed and I felt that, then he lay down next to me; I was on my side. It initally shook me up, but once I realized it was him, I just eventually fell back to sleep. Some people didn't believe me and others did. I know what I know what I know.

There were many other signs after that one. I love God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit sooooooooooooo much and I know I will see some of my loved ones when I get to heaven. I know my son will meet me to help me transition over.

My poodle even came back after I had her put to sleep. That little bugger took my hand in her month and slightly bit me .


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## yodie (Jun 25, 2011)

Coffee, honestly, I don't know that it's fiction. Maybe some parts are. Maybe some aren't. Kind of like the visit you just mentioned with your son. People would think it's not true, but you know different. I don't know for sure, but maybe the author had the same experience, if only in a vision. We just don't know. What I do know is that it really touched my heart and blessed me tremendously.


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## ThatJerseyGirl (Jun 30, 2011)

yodie and Coffee

I had to come back and tell you this. 

I saw the review on _Heaven is for Real.  _I made a mental note to purchase the book from Amazon.  I said to myself, if I order the book, then I have to pay for shipping since I'm not planning to order anything else.

As you can tell from my previous post, that was last week.

Yesterday evening, I was in Target.  I promised my son that I would get him another pair of ear phones.  So I went to the electronics department, purchased them and left the electronics department. 

I'm not familiar with this Target, so I was a little confused on how to get out of the store.  I walked down the main aisle looking straight ahead, walking as fast as I could.  As I was walking, I turned to my right and saw that book!  It was as if something made me turn and look that direction.  So much so, that I almost couldn't stop walking -- yes, I was walking just that fast. 

I purchased the book without hesitation. 

I started it last night.  Read much of it today.  I had to stop and put it down.  I am currently on Chapter 25 - Swords of the Angels.

I believe his testimony and I will tell you why.  

A friend of mines lost her son -- he was hit by a car and died instantly.  I assisted with the funeral arrangements, etc.  At the time, she had a daughter who, at the time of her brother's death was 5.  

A few weeks after the funeral, I was at the house.  A very sad house.  One morning we were at the table eating breakfast.  I asked her daughter how did she sleep last night and she said she was fine and that she was playing with her brother.  Keep in mind that her mom has told me that she has heard her daughter laughing and talking in her sleep, because her daughter slept in the room with her and her husband after their son died. 

So at this point, I'm sitting there and have stopped chewing.  I said to her "really?"  She said yes!  And she was excited.  

But here is the part that really got to me.  She said "and mommy...guess what?"  [his name] has a new pair of eyes mommy.  God gave him a new pair of eyes and he is brand new all over!!

I got up from the table, trying to hold back tears and went outside to light up a newport one hundred.  Stick a fork in me and turn it because I was D.O.N.E.

Let me tell you that during the arrangments, her daughter was not at the funeral home with us. I knew that my friend and her husband had his eyes donated because I was there throughout everything.  We never discussed this around the daughter when we got back. It was a done deal.  How on earth did she ever know that and we never told her????

The only other thing she said was that it was nice where he was and they always have fun and play around the tree.  It brings tears to my eyes now just to reminisce about it.

Sorry if this was long.  I just wanted to share and let you guys know that I believe everything that I've read.  

Out of the mouth of babes...


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## Coffee (Jun 30, 2011)

Thank you for sharing that. I know there's a heaven.  My Mom and son have both come back to visit me. There were things that happen that can't be explained. Your post brought a smile to my face.


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## topnotch1010 (Jun 30, 2011)

ThatJerseyGirl your post brought tears to my eyes. As I was reading this one of my fathers favorite songs came on the radio. He passed 3 years ago. I believe in GOD, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, & Heaven but I still sometimes wonder if he's ok. Your post coupled with that song coming on at just the right time comforted my soul. Sometimes you just need a reminder that this is REAL. Thank you 


Sent from TopNotch1010's iPhone using LHCF


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## ThatJerseyGirl (Jun 30, 2011)

topnotch1010 & Coffee  You're welcome 

Yes, I too believe in Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit.  My mom passed away last year September 22.  Let's just say that strange things has happened to me as well.  

One evening, I was laying in bed just thinking, missing my mom. All of a sudden, my Bose Sound Dock came on by itself.  My Ipod was OFF!!!  The music was blasting loud.  The remote was on the stand next to it.  I've NEVER had that happen before.  EVER.  Any one who has one knows that in order for the Ipod to come on, you have to use the remote.  This has happened twice so far.  Other things have happened, but this just happened recently.  

I sat there stunned.  I got up, grabbed the remote off the dresser and turned it off and started crying.


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## yodie (Jun 30, 2011)

ThatJerseyGirl, thank you for sharing that beautiful story!!! wow!! awesome.


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## blazingthru (Jul 3, 2011)

First I want to apologize to anyone that is offended by my post, I just have to tell you the truth and for some, its uncomfortable.  These types of books are very dangerous. Because they give you false hopes and false knowledge and it contradicts the word of God. Many Christians profess to believe in Christ yet are open to false teachings. We have to learn to separate Gods' teachings from Man's teachings. Man teaches that when you die you go to heaven or hell.  The bible does not teach that. In order to be strong, in order to stand firm when the time comes you must be willing to learn what is God's truth and what is man's truth.  
God's truth

Job 14:12

New King James Version (NKJV)

 12 So man lies down and does not rise.
      Till the *heavens are no more*, 
      They will not awake 
      Nor be roused from their sleep.

Job 14:21

New King James Version (NKJV)

 21 His sons come to honor, and he does not know it;
      They are brought low, and he does not perceive it.

Psalm 146:4

New Living Translation (NLT)

 4 When they breathe their last, they return to the earth,
      and all their plans die with them.

Revelation 22:12

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

   12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man [a]according to what he has done. 

1 Thessalonians 4:16

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first

Now if they are already in heaven what is the point of this? its not a uniting of the soul and the body. if it is then please find the scriptures to support this belief. the Spirit is the very air you are breathing. Your soul and your body are the same exact thing nothing different. yes they will be reunited when Jesus awakens you. (knowing nothing)

1 Thessalonians 4:17

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

17 Then we who are alive [a]and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord

Genesis 2:7

King James Version (KJV)

  7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Ezekiel 18:20

King James Version (KJV)

20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Revelation 16:3

King James Version (KJV)

 3And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
We are not immortal. Immortality is a gift from God and is only for those who are saved. Not for the sinners so thats a story for those believing that when you die and sin your going to hell not true either. 
 First of all. God is a just God and he says that he is going to allow those who are saved to see why their loved ones are not in heaven with them they will look at the books and be able to judge themselves.  Until everyone is able to understand, no one will be going to hell. 
I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them ... and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Revelation 20:4. "Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? ... Know ye not that we shall judge angels?" 1 Corinthians 6:2, 3. in this it means demons.
So please avoid books that talk about what heaven is like or what hell is like in terms of someone's personal experience. Now if you want to know what hell is like you can read about "Sodom and Gomorrah" that is our example. Sodom and Gomorrah burned forever, is it still buring today? No its not. it burned until it was ashe, this is what hell is like those who lived in sin and remain unrepented will burn until they are ash not forever.


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## L80sbabygirl (Jul 3, 2011)

blazingthru, I have to disagree with you. I believe Jesus himself made it plain that when a person dies, they go either to hell or to heaven. He made this clear when he told the parable of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31. Upon dying, the rich man went to hell and Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom (i.e. paradise/heaven). Jesus is not a liar that He would just make up untrue things about heaven and hell. Jesus also told the criminal on the cross next to him during his crucifixion(who had repented) that today that man would be with him in paradise (Luke 23:41-43). Obviously, Jesus meant that the man was going to die that day and was going to be with the Lord immediately upon his death in heaven. If people did not go to heaven or hell when they died, why would Jesus say/imply that they did? Also, Paul said in 2 Corinthians 5:8 that he would rather die and be present with the Lord, obviously saying that when he dies, he will then be with the Lord in heaven. 

I do agree wholeheartedly that people should not get caught up in stories about heaven or hell that are based on a person's personal experience. There's so much that the Lord has not told us about heaven or hell that it can be easy to get caught up in what sounds plausible in someone's experience. There should be caution exhibited there, that we don't put personal experience ahead of the Word of God. However, I do believe the bible teaches that a person goes immediately to heaven or hell when they die, and it isn't a man-made teaching. It is biblical. I don't post often at all, but felt pressed to write this.


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## blazingthru (Jul 3, 2011)

L80sbabygirl said:


> blazingthru, I have to disagree with you. I believe Jesus himself made it plain that when a person dies, they go either to hell or to heaven. He made this clear when he told the parable of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31. Upon dying, the rich man went to hell and Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom (i.e. paradise/heaven). Jesus is not a liar that He would just make up untrue things about heaven and hell. Jesus also told the criminal on the cross next to him during his crucifixion(who had repented) that today that man would be with him in paradise (Luke 23:41-43). Obviously, Jesus meant that the man was going to die that day and was going to be with the Lord immediately upon his death in heaven. If people did not go to heaven or hell when they died, why would Jesus say/imply that they did? Also, Paul said in 2 Corinthians 5:8 that he would rather die and be present with the Lord, obviously saying that when he dies, he will then be with the Lord in heaven.
> 
> I do agree wholeheartedly that people should not get caught up in stories about heaven or hell that are based on a person's personal experience. There's so much that the Lord has not told us about heaven or hell that it can be easy to get caught up in what sounds plausible in someone's experience. There should be caution exhibited there, that we don't put personal experience ahead of the Word of God. However, I do believe the bible teaches that a person goes immediately to heaven or hell when they die, and it isn't a man-made teaching. It is biblical. I don't post often at all, but felt pressed to write this.


 
 This is the thing when we read the scriptures we have to first figure out who the author speaking to and the reasons behind it.  To you and I this seems like an example of heaven and hell but to the jews they knew what it meant. Our generation has to study out what parables mean they do not always mean what we think right off the bat. in this case we have to do research.  

Also with Jesus on the cross it didn't mean today. the common was placed in the wrong place by the transcriber. We know this as we study the bible that what is a parable and what Jesus said on the cross is not what we think it is but I will expound on this futher.


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## blazingthru (Jul 3, 2011)

Isaiah 6:9

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

9 He said, “Go, and tell this people: 

‘Keep on listening, but do not perceive; 
Keep on looking, but do not understand
The Jews were a stubborn people and so Jesus spoke to them in parables. he made use of them to veil the truth from those who were not willing to see it. Those who really desire to know would not rest until they found out the meaning. 
As in our time. The bible is open wide, but you must study it to get the meaning you can't always expect to open the book and wham you got it. You have to study with deep prayer. If you have a heart that desires to know the truth you will seek for it and you will find it. As the scriptures I have already provided. When you die you will sleep heaven is not yet ready to accept humans in their sinful nature as far as we know God has allowed only three human beings to entered heaven and remain. Enoch, Elijah and Moses and they could only remain if Jesus went to the cross and blotted out their sins. 


okay this is an message l I posted this a few years back, but here an portion its pretty long but it is well worth the read.
Who was the symbolic rich man? The Jews had been blessed above measure by a knowledge of God and his plan of salvation for all mankind. They had received “the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises.” Romans 9:4. Only a Jew would pray to “Father Abraham,” as we find the rich man doing later in the story. The Jewish nation was clearly represented by this character.
By contrast, Lazarus symbolized all those people in spiritual poverty—the Gentiles—with whom the Israelites were to share their heritage. The words of Isaiah were well known to the Jews. “I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.” Isaiah 49:6.
Unfortunately, the Jews had not shared their spiritual wealth with the Gentiles at all. Instead, they considered them as “dogs” that would have to be satisfied with the spiritual crumbs falling from their masters’ tables. The metaphor was known. Jesus had used it before in testing the faith of the Canaanite woman. “It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs.” She responded accordingly: “Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ tables.” Matthew 15:26, 27.
The rich Jews had hoarded the truth, and in so doing, they had corrupted themselves. Only moments before relating this parable, Jesus had rebuked the Pharisees for their spiritual conceit. “Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.” Luke 16:15. What was to be the result of this terrible conceit?
“And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.” Luke 16:22-26.
The Jews had enjoyed “the good life” while on earth but had done nothing to bless or enrich their neighbors. No further reward was due. “Woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger.” Luke 6:24, 25.
Conversely, the poor in spirit, symbolized by Lazarus, would inherit the kingdom of heaven. The Gentiles who hungered and thirsted after righteousness would be filled. The “dogs” and sinners, so despised by the self-righteous Pharisees, would enter heaven before they would. “Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.” Matthew 21:31.
The parable concludes with the rich man begging for his brethren to be warned against sharing his fate. Asking Abraham to send Lazarus on this mission, he alleges “if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.” Luke 16:30. Abraham replies, “If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.” Verse 31.
Jesus thus rebuked the Pharisees for their disregard of the Scriptures, foreseeing that even a supernatural event would not change the hearts of those who persistently rejected the teachings of “Moses and the prophets.” The miracle of raising the real-life Lazarus from the dead soon afterward confirmed the accuracy of Jesus’ conclusion. One did rise from the dead, yet the brothers of the “rich man” did not repent. In fact, the Pharisees even plotted to kill Lazarus after his resurrection. His very life was a reminder to them of their own hypocrisy.
Today many Christians believe that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is a historical account of two individuals’ literal experiences in the afterlife. Based on this belief, some people teach that those who are consigned to the fiery torments of hell will never stop burning throughout all eternity. As with the parable of the trees and the bramble (Judges 9:8-15), however, serious problems arise with a literal interpretation of the story elements.
Can we believe that all the saints are even now gathered in Abraham’s bosom? If they are, in whose bosom does Abraham rest? And if there is really a great gulf fixed between heaven and hell, how could the rich man possibly have been heard by Abraham? Perhaps more disturbing, how could the saints enjoy the comforts of heaven while enduring the cries of the wicked being tormented?
Another dilemma that arises with a literal interpretation of this story could be called “the mystery of the empty graves.” If this is taken literally, apparently neither of the two leading characters spent very long in the grave—both being whisked away rather quickly to their respective places of reward. Their bodies obviously came along, for we find the rich man lifting up his eyes, and desiring to have his tongue cooled by a drop of water from the finger of Lazarus who was resting, as we have seen, in Abraham’s bosom. Enough graves have been exhumed in recent years to know that the bodies of the deceased are carried neither to heaven or hell after burial. They finally turn to dust and await the resurrection.


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## blazingthru (Jul 3, 2011)

From these few examples, we begin to see that in this parable, Jesus was not trying to explain the physical realities of the afterlife. Instead, He was referring to the unfaithfulness of the Jews regarding their assigned responsibility. As stewards of the special message of truth, they utterly failed to share it with the Gentiles, who were eager to hear it. In fact, the entire chapter of Luke 16 is devoted to the subject of stewardship.
     Beginning in verse one, Christ gave another parable about stewardship of money or property. “There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.” After dealing with the principle of being entrusted with material goods, Jesus opened up the issue of being entrusted with the truth. By the parable of another rich man, He graphically illustrated how they had proven just as unfaithful with spiritual riches as the steward had been unfaithful with physical wealth.
     To attempt to stretch the parable of the rich man and Lazarus to cover the doctrine of hellfire is to miss the point Jesus intended to convey. The Bible speaks with unmistakable clarity on the subject of hell in many other places. Nowhere do the Scriptures teach that the wicked will continue to suffer in the fires of hell through the ceaseless ages of eternity. Rather, they will be utterly destroyed. Jesus never would have compromised the integrity of the Holy Scriptures by teaching a doctrine contrary to its own overwhelming testimony on the subject. 
     The truth about hell may be ascertained by examining even a few of the many Bible texts that speak directly on the subject. Before examining these, however, we must remember that “the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life.” Romans 6:23. There are only two alternatives for every soul. Those who accept Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice will live forever; those who do not accept Jesus will die. If the wicked suffered without end, eternal life—however painful—would be theirs. But we know that eternal life is available only to those who accept Jesus.
     Consider these clear texts of Scripture that speak of the reward of the wicked: “But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.” Psalm 37:20.
     “For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: andthe day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.” Malachi 4:1.
     “And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.” Malachi 4:3.
     “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” Matthew 10:28.
     “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” 2 Peter 3:10.
     “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8. 
     Many other texts could be cited, but these clearly illustrate that the ultimate fate of the wicked is death. Notice that the Scriptures choose the strongest possible words to describe the complete annihilation of the wicked. In no way should these clear words be misunderstood by one who honestly desires to know truth. There is a fire reserved for the wicked, but a fire so hot it will utterly destroy all who are engulfed by it. When the fire has done its work, it will go out. Eternally burning fire is not taught anywhere in the Bible—not even in the story of the rich man and Lazarus. (Some people have wondered what the expression “for ever” means in the usage of Revelation 20:10. Other similar passages demonstrate this merely to mean as long as a person lives. See Exodus 21:6; 1 Samuel 1:22; Jonah 2:6, etc. Also, the expression “eternal fire” may be understood in terms of consequences rather than duration, as in the example of Sodom and Gomorrha in Jude 7).
     It would be tragic to miss the actual point of the parable by removing it from the setting in which Jesus gave it. Let’s accept the lesson He was trying to teach and apply it to our own lives. Are we doing all we can to spread the message of salvation to others? Do we have a genuine love for those around us, and have we invited them to share our spiritual inheritance? If we hoard our riches, like the Jews of old, we will become self-righteous and corrupt. In contrast, by active, loving service, our relationship with Christ as well as with others will become stronger and more meaningful.
     Let us not make scary stories the basis of our Christian experience. Instead, let us understand that “God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16.

Some Difficult Texts Explained 

     1 Samuel 28:14: “And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.”
     This spiritualistic séance has been cited as evidence for life after death. However, here are points to the contrary:

     1. Wizards had been sentenced to death and banned from the land (verse 3; Leviticus 20:27).
     2. God had left Saul and would not communicate with him (verse 15).
     3. Samuel was supposedly “brought up.” Other expressions: “ascending out of the earth,” “Cometh up,” and “Bring … up.” Is this where the righteous dead are—down in the earth? Not according to those who believe in the immortal soul.      4. Samuel is described as “an old man covered with a mantle.” Is this the way immortal souls appear? And where did the soul get the body? They’re supposed to be disembodied. Was there a resurrection? Did God obey the beck and call of the witch, and raise up Samuel? If not, can Satan raise the dead?
     5. The apparition of Samuel told Saul, “Tomorrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me.” Saul committed suicide on the battlefield the next day. Where did Samuel dwell, if the wicked Saul was to go to the same place?
     6. The record never says that Saul saw Samuel. He received his information as second hand from the witch, and only concluded it was Samuel from her description. The truth is that the devil deceived the dissolute old woman, and she deceived Saul. It was nothing more than a devil-generated séance.
     7. The enormity of Saul’s sin is revealed in these words, “So Saul died for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it; And inquired not of the Lord: therefore he slew him.” 1 Chronicles 10:13, 14. 
     Matthew 10:28: “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
     Jesus clearly teaches in this text that the soul is not naturally immortal. It can and will be destroyed in hell. But what does He mean about killing the body, but not the soul? Is it possible for the soul to exist apart from the body? Some say it is, but the Bible indicates otherwise.


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## blazingthru (Jul 3, 2011)

The Hebrew word “psuche” has been translated “soul” in this text, but in forty other texts it has been translated “life.” For example, Jesus said, “Whosoever will lose his life [psuche] for my sake shall find it.” Matthew 16:25. Obviously, “psuche” could not mean soul in this instance, or people could be said to lose their soul for Christ’s sake. It is properly translated “life.”
     But what of Matthew 10:28? Put in the word “life” instead of “soul” and the text makes perfect sense in its consistency with the rest of the Bible. The contrast isbetween one who can take the physical life, and He who can take away eternal life. Here is proof in the words of Jesus: “And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell.” Luke 12:4, 5.
     In other words, the word “soul” here means not only life, but also eternal life. Notice that Luke says everything just like Matthew except that he does not say “kills the soul.” Instead, he says, “cast into hell.” They mean the same thing. Men can only kill the body and take away the physical life. God will cast into hell and take away eternal life. Not only will their bodies be destroyed in that fire, but also their lives will be snuffed out for all eternity.

     Matthew 25:46: “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” 
     It is well to notice that Jesus did not say that the wicked would suffer “everlasting punishing.” He said “everlasting punishment.” What is the punishment for sin? The punishment is destruction, and it is of eternal duration (2 Thessalonians 1:9). In other words, it is a destruction which never ends, because there will be no resurrection from that destruction.
     Paul says, “the wages of sin is death.” Romans 6:23. John describes that death as “the second death” in Revelation 21:8. That death or destruction will be eternal.

     Mark 9:43, 44: “And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”
     In this verse, the word “hell” is translated from the Greek word “Gehenna,” which is another name for the Valley of Hinnom just outside the walls of Jerusalem.There the refuse and bodies of animals were cast into an ever-smoldering fire to be consumed. Maggots that fed on the dead bodies were constantly destroying what might escape the flames. Gehenna symbolized a place of total destruction.
     Jesus taught in this verse that the fire of hell could not be quenched or put out by anyone. Isaiah said, “They shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame.” Isaiah 47:14. Yet, he hastened to say in the same verse, “There shall not be a coal to warm at, nor a fire to sit before it.” So the unquenchable fire will go out after it has finished its work. Jerusalem burned with unquenchable fire (Jeremiah 17:27) yet it was totally destroyed (2 Chronicles 36:19-21).
     The flames and worms of Gehenna represented the total annihilation and obliteration of sin and sinners. With the fires of Gehenna burning before their eyes, Jesus could not have spoken a more graphic word to the Pharisees to describe the final total destruction of sinners. 
     Those who cite this text to support their doctrine of the natural immortality of the soul are thrown into a real dilemma. Why? Because the fire and worms are working, not upon disembodied souls, but bodies! In Matthew 5:30 Christ said, the “whole body” would be cast into hell.
     In Isaiah 66:24, the same Gehenna picture of hell is presented with the unquenchable flame and the destroying worms. But in this case, the word “carcasses” is used, revealing the fact that the fire consumes dead bodies, not disembodied souls.

     Luke 23:43: “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
     Some have assumed from this verse that souls go to their reward immediately after death, contrary to scores of other Bible texts. But notice two things wrong with this assumption. First, even though Jesus told the thief, “Verily I say unto thee, To day shaltthou be with me in paradise,” three days later He told Mary that He had not yet ascended to His Father. Here is the evidence that His Father was in Paradise: Revelation 2:7 says the tree of life “is in the midst of the paradise of God,” and Revelation 22:1, 2 describes the tree of life by the side of the river of life which flows, in turn, from the throne of God. So there is no question about Paradise being where the Father’s throne is located. The question is: How could Jesus tell the thief that he would be with Him in Paradise that day, when He did not go there until three days later?
     In the second place, Jesus and the thief did not even die on the same day. When the soldiers came just before sunset to take the bodies off the cross, Jesus was already dead (John 19:32-34). The thieves were very much alive, and their legs were broken to hasten death and to prevent them from escaping. They undoubtedly lived on past sunset into the hours of the Sabbath and possibly longer. So how could Jesus assure the thief of being with Him in Paradise that day when they did not both die on “that day”?
     The apparent contradictions clear up when we consider that the punctuation of Luke 23:43 was added by uninspired men when our English Bible was translated. They placed a comma before the word “today,” when in reality it should have been placed after “today.” Then the verse would correctly read, “Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.” In other words, Jesus was saying, “I give you the assurance today, when it seems I can save no man; today when my own disciples have forsaken me and I’m dying as a criminal dies—yet I assure you of salvation right now.” Please notice that the thief did not ask to be taken to Paradise then. He asked, “Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.” That’s exactly when he will be remembered and taken into that Kingdom.      2 Corinthians 5:6, 8: “Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: … We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”
     In verses 1-8, Paul is contrasting the present mortal state with the future immortal life in heaven. Notice the expressions he uses for the two conditions:


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## blazingthru (Jul 3, 2011)

Mortal  Immortal  
earthly house  building of God  
this tabernacle  house not made with hands  
mortality  our house from heaven  
in the body  absent from the body  
absent from the Lord  present with the Lord  


     He also speaks of being clothed with “our house which is from heaven,” (verse 2) and again, he longs “that mortality might be swallowed up of life.” Verse 4. But the key to the entire discourse lies in the description of a third condition. After desiring to be clothed upon with immortality, Paul states that “being clothed we shall not be found naked.” Verse 3. Putting it yet another way, he said, “not for that we would be unclothed.” Verse 4.
     Clearly, the naked or unclothed state was neither mortality nor immortality, but death and the grave. Paul realized that one did not pass instantly from being clothed with this tabernacle into being clothed with our house from heaven. Death and the grave came in between, and he referred to it as being unclothed and naked.
     In another text, Paul spelled out exactly when that change from mortality would take place. In 1 Corinthians 15:52, 53 he wrote, “The trumpet shall sound and this mortal must put on immortality.” That will be when Jesus comes.

     1 Peter 3:18-20: “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”
     There has been considerable misunderstanding of these verses of Scripture. It has been preached that Christ actually descended into the lower regions of the earth and preached to lost souls that were imprisoned in some purgatory or limbo.
     This is very far from what the text actually says. Let’s look at it closely now and get the real message of these verses. It says that Christ suffered once for sin that He might bring us to God by being put to death in the flesh. But He was quickened by the Spirit by which also He went and preached.
  First of all, notice how Christ preached to those spirits in prison. He did it by the Spirit, and that word is capitalized in your Bible. It actually refers to the Holy Spirit. So whatever Christ did in preaching during this period of time, He did it through or by the Holy Spirit.
     With that in view, let’s ask this: When was the preaching done? The answer is plainly given in verse 20, “When once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing.” So, the preaching was actually done while the ark was being built—during the preaching of Noah to that antediluvian world. Now, one more question: To whom was the preaching done? The text says here “to the spirits in prison.” Throughout the Bible, we find this terminology used in describing those who are bound in the prison house of sin. David prayed, “Bring my soul out of prison.” Psalm 142:7. Paul spoke of his experience in these words: “bringing me into captivity to the law of sin.” Romans 7:23.
     What Peter is telling us here is simply that Christ through the Holy Spirit was present while Noah preached; Christ was there through the Holy Spirit to speak conviction to their hearts and appeal to them to come into the ark. There is absolutely nothing here that indicates that Jesus departed from the body during the time He was dead to go to any subterranean place to minister to wicked spirits. The three questions are clearly answered in the text itself, that He preached by the Holy Spirit, He did it while the ark was being prepared, and He did it to the spirits in prison or to those individuals whose sinful lives were bound in the prison house of sin.

     Revelation 14:10, 11: “The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”      The words “for ever” do not necessarily mean “without end.” In fact, the Bible uses the term 56 times (“for ever” can be found in your biblical concordance under “ever”) in connection with the things that have already ended. In Exodus 21:1-6 the Hebrew servant was to serve his master “for ever,” but it was obviously only as long as he lived. Hannah took her son Samuel to God’s house to abide “for ever,” but she plainly limited that time to “as long as he liveth.” 1 Samuel 1:22, 28.
     The term is very clearly defined in Psalm 48:14, “For this God is our God for ever and ever: he will be our guide even unto death.” The desolation of Edom was to continue “for ever and ever.” Isaiah 34:10. Christ is called “a priest for ever” (Hebrews 5:6), yet after sin is blotted out Christ’s work as a priest will end. The Bible states, “The wicked … shall be destroyed for ever.” Psalm 92:7.


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## Coffee (Jul 4, 2011)

To be honest I didn't read your post. I only read the beginning and where you said "*you* needed to tell the truth? Once I read that, I didn't feel the need to have to read any further. 

I know what I know and what I've seen and experienced. I know what I believe, and the things God has told me. You are entitled to your opinion and what you may feel is right; I only ask for the same.


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## TraciChanel (Jul 4, 2011)

Coffee, thanks so much for starting this thread - I wish I saw it earlier. Anyway, I read _Heaven is for Real _this past March. I just happened to be watching the Today show and they were interviewing the little boy and his father (Todd Burpo). The little boy didn't go into as much detail as he did in the book, but he said enough to pique my curiosity. So much so, I went to the bookstore immediately and read the entire book the same day. It's amazing to me how God works, because I had been in prayer about the whole concept of heaven (don't judge me ) and just a few days later I _happened _to see this little boy on t.v., and then read that book.  I was sold after that. I told everyone I knew about the book and everyone who read it was so inspired by it - like I was.  I found that book at the right moment...


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## L80sbabygirl (Jul 4, 2011)

blazingthru, I am a believer who reads and studies my Bible. I pray always when I read my Bible. I believe that most of the people on this thread are also prayerful and study their Bible. I come to the conclusion that the Bible teaches that when a person dies they go immediately to Heaven (paradise) or Hell (Hades), the wicked are not annihilated, and also that the spirit/soul and the body are separate and not the same. I do appreciate that that’s what you believe and I respect your views, but I believe the Bible does not teach that. 

I need to correct myself, I realize in my previous post that I said the story of Lazarus and the rich man was a parable. It is NOT a parable. I meant to put it was a story. Since it's not a parable, it means exactly what it says. The Bible is plainly providing us with information about what happens upon death of the Believer and the wicked. The Believer goes to heaven and the wicked go hell upon their death. If it was a parable, the Bible would have specified it as a parable as it always does. This Lazarus is not the same Lazarus that Jesus resurrected. He says in the Word that this was a certain beggar named Lazarus (Luke 16:20). If it was the same Lazarus, the Bible would have said so. So Jesus's friend Lazarus has nothing to do with the story. All that extra stuff you added is found nowhere in the Bible and is just speculation. The story is NOT a parable. As I said before, Jesus never just made up concepts for people to prove a point. He always used true-to-life examples in what He said. He would not lie about what happens after death to prove a point to the Jews.

A true reading of the Word of God would accept the story for what it is, evidence that the Bible provides that a person is fully conscious after death, in Heaven or in Hell. The rich man in life only cared about himself, his riches and pleasures of life and ignored the poor. We can see from other verses in the Bible the dangers of ignoring the poor (no time to really get into those passages). Also, although we don’t know tons about the spirit/soul after death, it appears that the spirit/soul still has thoughts, feelings, and senses. Angels are also spirits and can still feel, think, and emote as the rich man does and can feel tormented in Hades, can see Lazarus and Abraham in paradise. Abraham is also conscious and he has been there much longer than they. Also, the martyrs mentioned in the book of revelation are not unconscious. Their souls are still very much alive even though their physical body is dead and they await the judgment of the wicked: Revelation 6:9-11: “And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”

The whole verse of Matthew 10:28 says: “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

This verse clearly shows that the body and the soul are separate and are not the same as you claim them to be or the passage would not distinguish between the body and the soul. Also, the word destroy in the second sentence does not necessarily mean annihilate. The Greek word used for destroy is “apollumi,” and it does not solely mean “destroy” as in annihilation. I can destroy a glass vase by knocking it on the floor and shattering it into pieces. That vase does not cease to exist because I destroyed it. It is still a vase, just ruined, which is another meaning for the word destroy. Another meaning for the word is to be lost, and what is a lost person? A person separated from God.  The word “apollumi” is translated as lost earlier in the same chapter in Matthew 10:6.  Jesus says: “But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” This word is also translated as lose and loseth in Matthew 10:39 and 10:42. The word can mean destroy, lose, perish, lost, etc. If we look in context of how the word is being used in the chapter, to understand what is meant in Matthew 10:28, we can deduce that Matthew 10:28 is referring to being lost, separated from God in hell.

Forever and ever means forever and ever. God is not a God of confusion. You can’t decide the passage doesn’t mean what it says when it’s convenient. There are too many passages that support what the Word says about the wicked being tormented forever:

Revelation 20:10: “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever.”

Matthew 18:8-9: “Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Matthew 25:41: “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.”

Matthew 25:46: “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

Mark 9:43-48: And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”

What does it mean to be everlasting? To not have an end. What does it mean to never be quenched? To never be extinguished. The same way the devil, false prophet and the devil will be tortured forever, so will the wicked. That fire is never going out, according to the Word of God.


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## L80sbabygirl (Jul 4, 2011)

There’s no evidence that the comma is in the wrong place in Luke 40:43. That’s definitely reaching. It also makes little sense to have the comma be a mistake. That basically translates the verse “This is what I’m telling you today, you will be with me in paradise.” If Jesus was going to make this comment, he would have left out the word “today.” He was obviously not speaking about tomorrow or yesterday. They were both going to die “today.” The thief wanted Jesus to remember him when he established his kingdom and Jesus assured him that when he died (which was today) he would immediately be in paradise with the Lord. Jesus was not unconscious and sleeping when he died. He did not lie to the thief:

“And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I commit My spirit.’”Having said this, He breathed His last.” (Luke 23:46). So Jesus went on to paradise upon his death. His body died and his spirit went with the Lord. The Bible also tells us that Jesus preached to the souls in prison, so he certainly was not unconscious during those three days his body was in the ground. His spirit was living on. 1 Peter 3:18-19: “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison.” 

There is also much evidence that when a believer dies, they will immediately be in the presence of the Lord:

“We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:8)”

Acts 7:57-61: “Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord; and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not charge them with this sin.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.”

It is clear in this passage that Stephen expected his soul/spirit to immediately be with the Lord upon his death. After the people stoned him, he fell asleep, which means he died. Sleep is often used to symbolize death in the Word of God. I don’t have the time to go through all those passages, but it is. Stephen didn’t just go into some state of unconsciousness or else why would He call to the Lord to take his spirit? He obviously meant right then and there because his body was about to die. 

Philippians 1:21-23: “For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.”

Why would Paul say that dying is gain if he meant he would just sleep on in some unconsciousness? He knows upon his death that he will immediately go on to be with the Lord. If all he had to look forward to is sleeping in a grave unconscious, why would he say that? It’s apparent that believers go on to immediately be with the Lord, which is why Paul wants to go, but also wanted to preach the gospel.

1 King 17:18-23: “So she said to Elijah, “What have I to do with you, O man of God? Have you come to me to bring my sin to remembrance, and to kill my son?” And he said to her, “Give me your son.” So he took him out of her arms and carried him to the upper room where he was staying, and laid him on his own bed. Then he cried out to the LORD and said, “O LORD my God, have You also brought tragedy on the widow with whom I lodge, by killing her son?” And he stretched himself out on the child three times, and cried out to the LORD and said, “O LORD my God, I pray, let this child’s soul come back to him.” Then the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came back to him, and he revived. And Elijah took the child and brought him down from the upper room into the house, and gave him to his mother. And Elijah said, “See, your son lives!”

This passage clearly illustrates that the soul is separate from the body. It’s plain as day.

Matthew 22:31-32: “But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying,‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.”

This must mean that these people still exist after their death or the verse would say “was” and not “am.”


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## L80sbabygirl (Jul 4, 2011)

I apologize to everyone for hijacking this thread. Sorry for the long responses.


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## Nice & Wavy (Jul 4, 2011)

L80sbabygirl said:


> I apologize to everyone for hijacking this thread. Sorry for the long responses.


Please...do not apologize.  You have surely shared the truth in this thread in love.

Thank you


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## blazingthru (Jul 5, 2011)

L80sbabygirl said:


> There’s no evidence that the comma is in the wrong place in Luke 40:43. That’s definitely reaching. It also makes little sense to have the comma be a mistake. That basically translates the verse “This is what I’m telling you today, you will be with me in paradise.” If Jesus was going to make this comment, he would have left out the word “today.” He was obviously not speaking about tomorrow or yesterday. They were both going to die “today.” The thief wanted Jesus to remember him when he established his kingdom and Jesus assured him that when he died (which was today) he would immediately be in paradise with the Lord. Jesus was not unconscious and sleeping when he died. He did not lie to the thief:
> 
> “And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I commit My spirit.’”Having said this, He breathed His last.” (Luke 23:46). So Jesus went on to paradise upon his death. His body died and his spirit went with the Lord. The Bible also tells us that Jesus preached to the souls in prison, so he certainly was not unconscious during those three days his body was in the ground. His spirit was living on. 1 Peter 3:18-19: “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison.”
> 
> ...


 
*Those Who Died in Christ*
*13* But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest _who have no hope_. *14* For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. *15* For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who *are alive* and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. *16* For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a *shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.* *17* Then *we* who *are alive* and remain will be *caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air*, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 

*Asleep:  Dead*

*Revelation 20:
**5* *The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed*.  Why Not? who are these dead? When we die don't we go to hell?  No we sleep and wait for judgment those who are saved are awaken as stated above those who are lost. Lost is not just a word there are Christians that are lost too. they remain in their graves. 

 This is the first resurrection. *6* *Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection*; over these the* second death* has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. 
*Satan Freed, Doomed*

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations, At this point the dead that are lost are awaken.  which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the [c]seashore. 9 And they came up on the [d]broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the [e]saints and the beloved city, *and fire came down from heaven and devoured them*. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and [f]brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. *Judgment at the Throne of God*

 12 *And I saw the dead, the great and the small*, (dead have no part in Christ) standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is _the book_ of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades(* this is not hell its the grave*) gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one _of them_ according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is *the second death, the lake of fire*. 15 And if [k]anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. 

Well I  understand where you are coming from these things you posted I had learned this my entire life and it just didn't make sense to me it seem to contridict so many other things I read and I have learned that I was reading it all wrong. I know that you are going to continue to see things one way and others will encourage that. but its good as a Christian to have an open mind about things and to make sure that what you believe aligns with what is in the word of God Which without prayer can be very difficult at times to get a clear meaning. I have already reviewed all of the scriptures you posted prior to my changing my beliefs in great detail I would be exhausting this thread to add it all so I will leave it at this.


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## yodie (Jul 6, 2011)

Checking back in. I skipped past the longer posts. This thread is going in a differet direction. I'm not saying that that I take every word in these books as pure fact. What I have said and will stand by, regardless of all the commentaries and scripture (I mean no disrespect to the word of God at all) is that this book, 'The Shack' touched my heart. It ministered to me and I understand that it may not have ministered to others and that's ok. 

Just a general question though, if we can't really trust anyone's personal experience/accounts of heaven, then how do we accept the visions, revelations and the many miracles, signs and wonders that we read about in the bible? Aren't those accounts told by someone else? 
Just food for thought. I'm not trying to argue anyone down here. Just sharing what's on my mind when I should be asleep. Night ladies!


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## Laela (Jul 6, 2011)

ThatJerseyGirl ... awesome story. Thanks for sharing it. When babes speak, it's a blessing to listen to what they say, IMHO. Too quickly these days we dismiss what children have to say, esp when it involves a death. Just a reminder for me that the wonderment of God's glory isn't just for children...


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## MyInvisibleChyrsalis (Jul 6, 2011)

I get the feeling that most of these threads turn out like this... Like a debate. I have seen people spit scripture out in triumph because they want to "inform". But it isn't in love. At all. It feels combative and self-righteous. Heaven IS real. It's a very real place. Just like Hell is a very real place. Books like these are testimonies. That being said, ThatJerseyGirl, that was amzing. God is awesome. He knows just what will get us and I'm sure that was a great source of comfort for your friend. Another great book I liked was 90 minutes in heaven and for those interested, 23 minutes in Hell. In 23 minutes of Hell, He actually saw people faliing from above and knew immediately that they had just died. Instantaneously. Very powerful tools of testimony


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## TraciChanel (Jul 6, 2011)

Msmchy said:


> I get the feeling that most of these threads turn out like this... Like a debate. *I have seen people spit scripture out in triumph because they want to "inform".* *But it isn't in love. At all. It feels combative and self-righteous.* *Heaven IS real.* It's a very real place. Just like Hell is a very real place. Books like these are testimonies. That being said, ThatJerseyGirl, that was amzing. God is awesome. He knows just what will get us and I'm sure that was a great source of comfort for your friend. Another great book I liked was 90 minutes in heaven and for those interested, 23 minutes in Hell. In 23 minutes of Hell, He actually saw people faliing from above and knew immediately that they had just died. Instantaneously. Very powerful tools of testimony


 
My thoughts exactly. Thank you.  I am thankful for those who do write their stories as testimonies. It definitely lifts your faith and inspires tremendously. That was the feeling I had after I read that book.


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## Mami_Chula416 (Jul 6, 2011)

ThatJerseyGirl said:


> yodie and Coffee
> 
> I had to come back and tell you this.
> 
> ...




Thank you so much for sharing that, gave me goosebumps and tears.

I can't wait to get myself a copy of that book.


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## Coffee (Jul 6, 2011)

Please come back and post your thoughts about it.


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## mstrublvr (Jul 7, 2011)

Thank you all for the book suggestion and review. I will add it to my end of school reading list.

Sent from my ADR6300 using ADR6300


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## Coffee (Jul 7, 2011)

Msmchy said:


> I get the feeling that most of these threads turn out like this... Like a debate. I have seen people spit scripture out in triumph because they want to "inform". But it isn't in love. At all. It feels combative and self-righteous. Heaven IS real. It's a very real place. Just like Hell is a very real place. Books like these are testimonies. That being said, ThatJerseyGirl, that was amzing. God is awesome. He knows just what will get us and I'm sure that was a great source of comfort for your friend. Another great book I liked was 90 minutes in heaven and for those interested, 23 minutes in Hell. In 23 minutes of Hell, He actually saw people faliing from above and knew immediately that they had just died. Instantaneously. Very powerful tools of testimony


 
I recently read both of those books. Very powerful indeed. I will not debate on what I know to be real....for me. I don't understand why a person will feel that what they know or their understanding of the bible, has to be the truth .


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## disgtgyal (Jul 10, 2011)

Very interesting thread and debate, I must agree with the poster that said sometimes when one spouts scripture its not in love but in a self- righteous way. I believe we are all searching for the truth so no one should place them-self as an authority on the matter, but I must say interpreting scripture isn't as simple as one may think, I'm reading the book How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth by Gordon Fee and DOuglas Stuart, and it definitely helps to have an understanding of jewish vernacular and a commentary comes in handy for that reason, it helps you understand the text the way the author intended it to be understood. When you read about how the manuscripts were copied and preserved you will realize a misplaced comma isn't a stretch, but a very plausible likelihood. The manner that blazingthru used to determine the correct translation of a particular word is actually the way biblical scholars, as well as the book I'm currently reading suggest  readers approach translation and interpretation.  As far as individual accounts of heaven and hell I'm pretty ambivalent because I feel like when you read or hear a personal account of heaven or hell it may effect your faith, especially being that faith is a belief in the unseen so in essence its like okay I can believe more because this person saw it, but we are to walk by faith and not sight. On the other hand God gives revelations to many people about various things so, who is to say that He didn't give a particular person a revelation in order to help the body of Christ... this is where searching the scriptures comes in handy


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## Coffee (Jul 10, 2011)

God can use anyone to get His word out to the world. I don't put a limit on God and what He is able to do. I have heard His voice  talking with me, I have seen Him answer my prayers and bless me, I know it was Him who helped me through my son's passing away. The God I know and love is a wonderful, powerful, all knowing and all seeing God, there is nothing He can't do.


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## blazingthru (Jul 13, 2011)

I don't think I am the authority on what is truth and what is not, but in this case, this has already been researched over and over again and I can understand why a person can come up with the conclusion that at your death your fate is determine, it is determine but not carried out. 
Because God has said that there is a time when all of these things will take place, If our God is fair and if our God truly loves us. He will not cause the people that he says he loves to be treated so unfairly, its not fair to have us watch the trails and suffering of our loves one while we stand helplessly by.


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## blazingthru (Jul 13, 2011)

It is not fair to go to hell for all eternity for stealing, or doing drugs are whatever, it truly doesn't fit.  
This is the thing. Everyone has a choice in what you choose to believe but if you don't have the love of the truth, although you are saved you will be lost. Satan deceives us every single day.  There are foods forbidden in the bible. People who are profess Christian eat this food, knowing that Jews to this day do not. However, Satan has designed things in such a way that even if you tried your very best to avoid this food you could not possibly know what and where it is. I found out a year ago that Iodine was made from shellfish. Imagine. you go out of your way to avoid shellfish and so forth and your still getting it rubbed on your body.  Satan so deceitful that professed Christians cannot see him or realize his power. His power is incredible strong. Most of the world follow after him.  I use to be an American idol fan. not knowing that I am supporting America creating an idol for people to fall all over, I was upset that I was so blind I didn't see it. 
As a Christian is should always be your desire to love the truth and share the truth, even if none agree with you.  Even if someone gets offended, although that is never my intention's. But what I shared with you it is the truth as said in the word of God. The difference is its backed up over and over again. This is how God works, you have to have the love of the truth and as you develope this God will reveal more and more and more to you. 

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

10 He will use every kind of evil deception to fool those on their way to destruction, because they refuse to love and accept the truth that would save them. 11 So *God* will cause them to be greatly deceived, and they will believe these lies. 12 Then they will be condemned for enjoying evil rather than believing the truth.
I didn't say you don't have dreams or visions. When God gives vision its for a particular reason and he only gives visions to a particular person not anyone willy nilly. But its for them not for us we have to test everything by the word of God. Everything. 
Satan is very clever, I can show my uncle every scripture in the bible about death. He will not listen because he saw his grandmother at the foot of his bed and that was it for him, he believed she was walking and talking to him. She been dead for over 30 years. The bible say the dead no not nothing that was a demon in his room, now he has closed his mind to the truth and nothing will convince him.  I see my father in law all the time. All the time but you know I know its the demons and so I ignore it. The time is coming upon us now that we are going to see some powerful things. things we never ever seen before we will see and the truth must be in you sealed for you to not accept or believe it.  It starts out with one lie to cause you to faulter if you accept the lie, you will accept more and more until you are lost.


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## CoilyFields (Jul 13, 2011)

My grandfather passed three weeks ago and it was the first death of someone close to me. I wanted to understand what happened to him so I began to study the scriptures. The account of Lazarus and the rich man was the one most pointed to as an example of what happens. The question of whether its a parable or not does not matter becuase either way Jesus would not make up something completely false (as in not based on reality) to make a point. In all other parables/stories he used real life circumstances (the bridegroom, the talents, the vineyard, the indebted servant etc.) to make his point.

My understanding, after studying and praying is that paradise/Bosom of Abraham is NOT the heaven where we spend eternity with God. Paradise is much like a holding place for the saints and hades is the holding place of the unsaved. Seperated so that no one can cross over. Maybe someone with Jewish background or knowledge ( Guitarhero Almaz ) could give us some context to how the Jews would have understood this parable based on their own accepted beliefs of the afterlife.

The above is my limited understanding and I will not proclaim it as an infallible interpretation of the Bible because I'm just not sure. There are scriptures that I read that support it but there are also scriptures in Revelations about the Elders surrounding the throne of God that must be reconciled to this view. 

Ultimately I believe that Jesus gave us a glimpse of a much larger picture...becuase his intent was not the explain the afterlife with this parable/story but that the consequences of our choices here on earth will stretch into eternity and every person needs to decide NOW if they choose life cause theres no changing after death.


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## SvelteVelvet (Jul 13, 2011)

This is the first time I've come across such a debate on the Word on this forum, but then again, I don't visit often or enter every thread in it. IRL whenever I witness continuous debate on scripture, it tells me that someone who has been heavily influenced by anti-Christ spirit is present. An anti-Christ spirit lacks true understanding of scripture, yet will use it all day everyday to forcefully spew their limited/deceptive/just wrong understanding of what it truly means for sake of argument. Instead of becoming enlightened, they become more combative. *Matthew 4:1-11* - Satan quotes scripture to Jesus in verse 6. I know too many preachers who make this a *practice* in their so-called ministry.

Within the body of Christ, there isn't this level of argument. There may be questions as some are further along than others on their journey but in the body the result is confirmation and further understanding. @blazinthru I hope it is still possible for you to take the spirit of how these ladies responded to you and use it for further understanding...

Thanks for the heads up on this book OP. "The Shack" is also one of my favorites.

BTW..I believe the Holy Spirit has never stopped influencing and instructing writers..something to ponder.


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## Coffee (Jul 13, 2011)

Blazing, I hope you take this question the way it's intended. Why does it matter so much to you on what other people believe or understand? You can't get anyone to heaven.....opps, sorry bout that. But you are the only one you should be concerned about their relationship with God. If we're all wrong, that shouldn't matter to you.

You seemed to be overly possessed about trying to change people's mind to agree with what you've read and believe.....may I ask why?

Personally with me you're wasting your time quoting all these scriptures. I've told you, I know what I know and you're not going to get me to change my mind, so why not just let it go?


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## Almaz (Jul 13, 2011)

I will be GLAD to PM you regarding a Jewish Perspective on the subject I tend to stay out of the Christian forum since I am not a Christian and my views are not Christian so I feel that out of respect I usually stay out of here. 





CoilyFields said:


> My grandfather passed three weeks ago and it was the first death of someone close to me. I wanted to understand what happened to him so I began to study the scriptures. The account of Lazarus and the rich man was the one most pointed to as an example of what happens. The question of whether its a parable or not does not matter becuase either way Jesus would not make up something completely false (as in not based on reality) to make a point. In all other parables/stories he used real life circumstances (the bridegroom, the talents, the vineyard, the indebted servant etc.) to make his point.
> 
> My understanding, after studying and praying is that paradise/Bosom of Abraham is NOT the heaven where we spend eternity with God. Paradise is much like a holding place for the saints and hades is the holding place of the unsaved. Seperated so that no one can cross over. Maybe someone with Jewish background or knowledge ( @Guitarhero @Almaz ) could give us some context to how the Jews would have understood this parable based on their own accepted beliefs of the afterlife.
> 
> ...


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## Guitarhero (Jul 13, 2011)

CoilyFields said:


> My grandfather passed three weeks ago and it was the first death of someone close to me. I wanted to understand what happened to him so I began to study the scriptures. The account of Lazarus and the rich man was the one most pointed to as an example of what happens. The question of whether its a parable or not does not matter becuase either way Jesus would not make up something completely false (as in not based on reality) to make a point. In all other parables/stories he used real life circumstances (the bridegroom, the talents, the vineyard, the indebted servant etc.) to make his point.
> 
> My understanding, after studying and praying is that paradise/Bosom of Abraham is NOT the heaven where we spend eternity with God. Paradise is much like a holding place for the saints and hades is the holding place of the unsaved. Seperated so that no one can cross over. Maybe someone with Jewish background or knowledge ( @Guitarhero @Almaz ) could give us some context to how the Jews would have understood this parable based on their own accepted beliefs of the afterlife.
> 
> ...




I'm just coming on today...saw this...reflecting...hmmm.  I can pass you onto someone who has a blog who is a brother now in the Church.   He talks about various aspects of these things.  Here
Or here

I'm truly sorry...haven't kept up with this thread at all...will go to reading now.


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## AnjelLuvs (Jul 13, 2011)

ThatJerseyGirl said:


> @yodie - I read that book.  That was an excellent book.  I think I will read it again.  Very good book.  Some parts of it made me cry.  I couldn't put the book down it was so good.


*I was on the plane crying... I LOVE THE SHACK BOOK...

btw, what is exact title/author of Heaven is for Real book... Matter of fact I smell a spinny... Becaus eI would loive to hear of other good books... 
*


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## blazingthru (Jul 14, 2011)

Coffee said:


> Blazing, I hope you take this question the way it's intended. *Why does it matter so much to you on what other people believe or understand? *You can't get anyone to heaven.....opps, sorry bout that. But you are the only one you should be concerned about their relationship with God. If we're all wrong, that shouldn't matter to you.
> 
> You seemed to be overly possessed about trying to change people's mind to agree with what you've read and believe.....may I ask why?
> 
> Personally with me you're wasting your time quoting all these scriptures. I've told you, I know what I know and you're not going to get me to change my mind, so why not just let it go?


 
Coffee, We are require to love our fellow brothers and sisters and love and pray for our enemies, if we truly love our fellow brothers and sister we should do all we can to make sure they are fully equipped and encourage them to continue to head up the right path as much as we can.  Believing in something that is not scripturally supportive leads you down dangerous paths. The word of God is the only truth we can rely on and it is our duty to try out best to save those who are lost and encourage those who are saved in the truth, which should be easy because we go and we examine whether what is told to us is true or not. But many do not. 
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are *spiritually* discerned.
so we pray and we review what is told to us to make sure its true. Evil spirits do not lead you to God but away. There are many people from all walks of life that read these post and some are changed. So its never a waste to share the truths you have if it aligns with scripture.


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## Coffee (Jul 14, 2011)

blazingthru said:


> Coffee, We are require to love our fellow brothers and sisters and love and pray for our enemies, if we truly love our fellow brothers and sister we should do all we can to make sure they are fully equipped and encourage them to continue to head up the right path as much as we can. Believing in something that is not scripturally supportive leads you down dangerous paths. The word of God is the only truth we can rely on and it is our duty to try out best to save those who are lost and encourage those who are saved in the truth, which should be easy because we go and we examine whether what is told to us is true or not. But many do not.
> 1 Corinthians 2:14
> But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are *spiritually* discerned.
> so we pray and we review what is told to us to make sure its true. Evil spirits do not lead you to God but away. There are many people from all walks of life that read these post and some are changed. So its never a waste to share the truths you have if it aligns with scripture.


 
There is a difference in sharing the Word and trying to force what you feel is right and true on a person. If someone has said, more than once they don't agree with what you're saying and their mind will not be changed, why are you continuing to force your belief of the scripture upon them?

Why not respect their opinion and leave it be? I don't remember reading in the Bible where a person is supposed to continually force scriptures on a person who has a different opinion. Can't we just agree to disagree and move on?


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## blazingthru (Jul 14, 2011)

I only responded to the questions directed at me.


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## AnjelLuvs (Jul 14, 2011)

*umm whose author of book *


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## yodie (Jul 24, 2011)

The author of 'Heaven is for real' is Todd Burpo/Lynn Vincent. 
Picked up the book from the library and read it in the same day. Told my mom about it. Coffee, thanks for sharing. I gobbled it down in a matter of hours. I believe Colton's story. Oh and the pic of Jesus! 
Any other books abt heaven? 

Have any of you read 'Driven by Eternity' by John Bevere? Its not an ccount of heaven persay, but its abt geting to our destination - eternity. The book was excellent, BUT there is an audio CD called Affabel that goes along with this. Have any of you ladies listened to it? Its powerful and excellent. If you can get it, please do and share with someone else. If you realy are interested and just can't get a copy, I'll loan you mine.


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## Coffee (Jul 24, 2011)

yodie said:


> The author of 'Heaven is for real' is Todd Burpo/Lynn Vincent.
> Picked up the book from the library and read it in the same day. Told my mom about it. Coffee, thanks for sharing. I gobbled it down in a matter of hours. I believe Colton's story. Oh and the pic of Jesus!
> Any other books abt heaven?
> 
> Have any of you read 'Driven by Eternity' by John Bevere? Its not an ccount of heaven persay, but its abt geting o our destination, eternity. The book was excellent, BUT there is an audio CD called Affabel that goes along with this. Have any of you ladies listened to it? Its powerful and excellent. If you can get it, please do and share with someone else. If you realy are interested and just can't get a copy, I'll loan you mine.


 
Yodie, I'm happy you enjoyed reading Heaven is for Real.  I just kept looking at the picture of Jesus too. How do you explain that the young girl  who drew the picture had never met the 4yr old, but he knew right away that it was Jesus. The book gives hope, joy and peace to those who read it and believe it.


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## yodie (Jul 24, 2011)

That's what got me. Colton ddnt know this girl, but he said that was the picture of Jesus when he saw it. It realy blessed me.


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## Guitarhero (Jul 24, 2011)

I probably shouldn't say it for fear of being misunderstood, but this is one reason I converted to my church.  We always have some kind of "evidence" of heaven.  It's quite common.  We have pics and apparitions all the time.  I believe many are a true revelation of G-d.  I do not doubt the stories recounted in this thread at all.


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## ElegantElephant (Jul 31, 2011)

Downloaded the book, and so far, it is excellent! Thanks OP


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## Country gal (Jul 31, 2011)

I need some inspiration so thanks for starting the thread. I glossed over the long posts since the thread is becoming a debate. Looking forward to reading both books.


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