# The Rarely Recognized Route Into The Black Middle-class: Staying Single And Living Alone



## bubbles12345 (Apr 9, 2019)

Thoughts on this article?

It's a quick read here: https://blogs.psychcentral.com/sing...middle-class-staying-single-and-living-alone/

TLDR?

Here is a quote from the end that summaries the gist of it  :

“A possible implication of this shift is that if black women are achieving middle-class status without marrying, marriage may not, contrary to what has been previously believed, provide much financial benefit or produce positive returns for professional black women in this age group.”


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## kblc06 (Apr 9, 2019)

I just read this and was going to post lol.  If me and my cohort are any indication, the answer is yes  (late 20s/ early 30s, high 5 & 6 figure salaries, single, childless, unsquintably black). Sadly, not marrying an equal contributor would result in a net loss for us on an individual level,  while being a net gain for a man #ohwell

Eta: based on me and my bestie's assessments, should nothing change,  we should be set to retire at about 55, no later than 60)


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## UmSumayyah (Apr 9, 2019)

kblc06 said:


> I just read this and was going to post lol.  If me and my cohort are any indication, the answer is yes  (late 20s/ early 30s, high 5 & 6 figure salaries, single, unsquintably black). Sadly, not marrying an equal contributor would result in a net loss for us on an individual level,  while being a net gain for a man #ohwell


Bw are more likely to be the breadwinner. 

More likely to be the higher earner in a marriage. 

When you factor in other issues it's a no-brainer.


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## Southernbella. (Apr 9, 2019)

I'm assuming the living alone variable refers to single non-parents because the strongest predictor of poverty for single women is motherhood.

This is interesting, though. I mentioned the other day that this age group in particular is placing less value on marriage their previous generations. Seems like it's actually beneficial for black folks.


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## RoundEyedGirl504 (Apr 9, 2019)

Wasn't there an article last year that indicated black women marrying black men decreased their earning power or net worth? This seems to compliment that research.


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## Pat Mahurr (Apr 9, 2019)

The article says that SALA is an effective pathway for women, but not for men.  I wonder why.


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## Evolving78 (Apr 9, 2019)

Pat Mahurr said:


> The article says that SALA is an effective pathway for women, but not for men.  I wonder why.


We talked about that here too. Women live longer and happier single, since less demands are put on them when it concerns having a husband and children. Men do better emotionally when they have a family. It gives them balance.


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## Crackers Phinn (Apr 9, 2019)

Pat Mahurr said:


> The article says that SALA is an effective pathway for women, *but not for men.*  I wonder why.


Child support.


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## chocolat79 (Apr 9, 2019)

I can believe this article wholeheartedly. I'm married now,  but it's so much "easier" to move as a BW these days in terms of career and opportunities. I was/am making the most money I've made in my field (which can be limited), mostly because I was able to move across the country with no attachments and have saved way more money as a single woman that I would if I had married earlier.

Also,  I was watching a couple YT videos of BW who were living abroad,  specifically Korea,  because they could pay off their student loans. So these women will come back to the States debt-free. One woman had paid off her student loans in 3 years. So unless you meet someone awesome, being a single BW with no children can be very beneficial if you look at it as an opportunity.


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## Pat Mahurr (Apr 9, 2019)

Crackers Phinn said:


> Child support.


 You may be kidding, but that was my first thought. It isn’t so much marital status  that determines whether you move from one class to another but whether you have children.


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## Black Ambrosia (Apr 9, 2019)

Any idea what this is??? The others are easily measurable but I'm not even sure how you'd define an occupational prestige score.


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## Southernbella. (Apr 9, 2019)

Black Ambrosia said:


> Any idea what this is??? The others are easily measurable but I'm not even sure how you'd define an occupational prestige score.



Different fields use slightly different scores but generally, it's exactly what you think it is with doctors at the top, dentists, judges, attorneys, professors, on and on down the list.


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## sunnieb (Apr 10, 2019)

My key take away isn't necessarily the lack of marriage, it's the lack of children.

I know the unmarried and childless BW in my circle are deliriously happy.  One recently got married (late 40s) and some of the others have SOs, but no kids.  All of them have strong family ties and real friends. 

Like someone mentioned, having children is a huge factor in BW being in poverty.   

Not sure where I'm going with my thoughts here.  I just want BW to live their best life  no matter what they choose to do.


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## Black Ambrosia (Apr 10, 2019)

Southernbella. said:


> Different fields use slightly different scores but generally, it's exactly what you think it is with doctors at the top, dentists, judges, attorneys, professors, on and on down the list.


I guess. It seems to be adding an unnecessary level of subjectivity. While prestige may be associated with upper middle class status I don’t consider it to be a criteria.


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## Crackers Phinn (Apr 10, 2019)

Pat Mahurr said:


> You may be kidding, but that was my first thought. It isn’t so much marital status  that determines whether you move from one class to another but whether you have children.


Not kidding at all.  I've known a lot of single fathers who lived alone.  Child support is a fixed expense that rarely decreases and doesn't go away for 20 years.   I have not met one single woman living alone who was paying child support.


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## MomofThreeBoys (Apr 10, 2019)

I’m married with kids and can see the alure of being single but denying myself motherhood would have been a non-starter for me. I rather have a reduced net worth.


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## gimbap (Apr 10, 2019)

I can see this, but I've also said I could save more and pay down debt faster if I lived with someone else (in other words, shacked up or got married) because I could saving on housing expenses. But of course that would only work if I lived with a man who could pay the bills, and that's the only way I'm living with a man anyway


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## intellectualuva (Apr 10, 2019)

This is me and my single childless friends.  I get it.


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## Kanky (Apr 10, 2019)

Marriage to the wrong man or having children with the wrong man is bad for your financial situation so this doesn’t surprise me. Still black women need more options for socio-economic upward mobility than staying single for life. That just sounds depressing. Marrying your equal or marrying up usually leads to a higher net worth.

Also I read the summary of the report that they linked to and it is terrible.

https://familystoryproject.org/wp-c...-Fundamentalism_Exec-Summary_Family-Story.pdf

*The Case Against Marriage Fundamentalism: Embracing Family Justice for All documents how conservatives, with help from centrists and liberals, have promoted the supremacy of the married family to the detriment of historically marginalized people and progressive policy goals.*


Even though the have a child out of wedlock thing is a proven failure they are still trying convince black women that they should do so. The authors are a white male lawyer, a white woman feminist and a black man. No black women. They are probably all comfortably married while encouraging black women to struggle.

These well educated white people are trying to use black women to further their “progressive policy goals” while enjoying an upper middle class life.


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## kblc06 (Apr 10, 2019)

Pat Mahurr said:


> The article says that SALA is an effective pathway for women, but not for men.  I wonder why.



There was an article CNN  touched on last year that showed that black men married to black women actually are more likely to be middle class as we tend to be larger economic contributors in the relationship ( when compared to other groups). But even on their own, black men's poverty rate has decreased significantly since the 1950-70s:


*Black men are succeeding in America*
By W. Bradford Wilcox, Wendy R. Wang, and Ronald B. Mincy

Updated at 4:33 PM ET, Tue July 3, 2018

Editor's Note:W. Bradford Wilcox (@WilcoxNMP), a professor of sociology at the University of Virginia, is a senior fellow at the Institute for Family Studies and a visiting scholar at the American Enterprise Institute. Wendy R. Wang is director of research at the Institute for Family Studies. Ronald B. Mincy is Maurice V. Russell Professor of Social Policy and Social Work Practice and director of the Center for Research on Fathers, Children and Family Well-Being at Columbia University. The opinions expressed in this commentary are theirs.
(CNN) — In recent years, much of the racial news in America has been sobering, if not depressing. Trayvon Martin. Tamir Rice. Walter Scott. Ferguson. Baltimore. And Charlottesville. While many public commentators, like Ta-Nehisi Coates, have underlined the enduring character of racism in America, and the ways in which America's racial divide has exacted a particular kind of toll on black men and boys, there is today, unheralded, good news about African-American men.




W. Bradford Wilcox




Wendy Wang




Ronald B. Mincy
Despite a portrait of race relations that often highlights the negative, especially regarding black men (many Americans, according to a 2006 study by the Washington Post, Kaiser Family Foundation, and Harvard University,believed that crime, unemployment, and poverty are endemic among African-American men), the truth is that most black men will notbe incarcerated, are not unemployed, and are not poor -- even if black men are more likely than other men to experience these outcomes.
In fact, millions of black men are flourishing in America today.
Our new report, "Black Men Making It In America," spotlights two pieces of particular good news about the economic well-being of black men.
First, the share of black men in poverty has fallen from 41% in 1960 to 18% today. Second, and more importantly, the share of black men in the middle or upper class -- as measured by their family income -- has risen from 38% in 1960 to 57% today. In other words, about one-in-two black men in America have reached the middle class or higher.
This good news is important and should be widely disseminated because it might help reduce prejudicial views of black men in the society at large, and negative portrayals of black men in the media. It should also engender hope among all African-Americans -- particularly young black males.




Related Video: Racial bias is not just a Starbucks problem 03:41
Correcting overly negative depictions and attitudes regarding black men is important because they shape how black men are treated, and how black men view their potential. Alan Jenkins, executive director of Opportunity Agenda, a social justice organization, noted that "Research and experience show that expectations and biases on the part of potential employers, teachers, health care providers, police officers, and other stakeholders influence the life outcomes of millions of black males."
So, what routes are black men taking to make it in America?
Tracking black men from young adulthood through their 50s using data from the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth 1979, we identified three factors that are associated with their success: education, work, and marriage.
Black men who worked full-time, had some college education, or were married were much more likely to be members of the middle or upper class by the time they got to their 50s. We found, for instance, that the odds that black men make it to the middle or upper class are at least three times higher for those men who marry, compared to their peers who never married. Their financial well-being is higher partly because married black women contribute a higher share of income to the household than other married women.
Adding to the chances of black men achieving middle class and higher status is the US military. We found that serving in the military was associated with a 72% increase in the odds that black men made it into the middle class or higher as 50-something men.
By providing stable work, good health care, housing, and opportunities for advancement, by championing virtues such as duty, responsibility, loyalty, and perseverance, and by pushing racial integration, the US military has served as an important route into the middle class.



Related Article: My only crime was being a black man in America
Moreover, the US military is also known for its marriage-oriented culture, and we found that black men who served in the military as young men were much more likely to be married later, at ages 29-37, compared to their peers who did not serve. This marriage advantage played a role in boosting their later odds of success.
Of course, the story our report tells is not all rose-colored. Black men are significantly less likely to make it into the middle and upper class than their white and Asian-American peers. The odds of black men in their 50s making it to the middle class were about 60% lower for those who were charged with a crime as a young adult.
Given that racial segregation, poverty, and bias affect the odds that young black males get caught up in the criminal justice system, systemic racism limits the economic fortunes of black men. What's more: right now, only a small minority of black men graduate from college: 17%. Schools and colleges need to do more to identify, recruit, and support young black men so they are accepted, attend, and graduate from four-year colleges and universities in the US.
Follow CNN Opinion

Join us on Twitter and Facebook
Amidst all that's wrong about race in America today, we cannot lose sight of two sets of social facts: today, about one-in-two black men have made it in America, and these men have traveled routes into the middle class that can be replicated.
The evidence suggests that if more Americans knew how many black men were succeeding, and more about the routes they are taking, it would reduce racial prejudice and engender hope among today's young black males that they too have a shot at making it in America.


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## Farida (Apr 10, 2019)

The two biggest ways to have a lower socioeconomic status are to 1) have kids OOW 2) get divorced.

Facts.

We all know or some of you are black single moms living your best life but you are the exceptions. Single black men who pay child support are broke. Supporting two households versus one in divorce is expensive...or for the higher earner divorce leads to child support and alimony.

Live your best life. And if it’s not on paper, it didn’t happen. Get your legal life right.


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## sunnieb (Apr 11, 2019)

@Farida thanks for mentioning divorce.  That's financial killer for BW for dang sure!

Add in the fact that there are multiple marriages, multiple children with each husband and there it is.

We all have a limited time on this earth. If you keep having to reset and start over (after each divorce), it's near impossible to build wealth.


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## nubiangoddess3 (Apr 11, 2019)

chocolat79 said:


> I can believe this article wholeheartedly. I'm married now,  but it's so much "easier" to move as a BW these days in terms of career and opportunities. I was/am making the most money I've made in my field (which can be limited), mostly because I was able to move across the country with no attachments and have saved way more money as a single woman that I would if I had married earlier.
> 
> Also,  I was watching a couple YT videos of BW who were living abroad,  specifically Korea,  because they could pay off their student loans. *So these women will come back to the States debt-free. One woman had paid off her student loans in 3 years. *So unless you meet someone awesome, being a single BW with no children can be very beneficial if you look at it as an opportunity.




But to make it into the middle class Black women must  pay student loans down. Black women in America with degrees have a negative wealth.  So, while one can earn a higher wages while being single, due to debt very few blacks in America are in the middle class.

Also this article is confusing wages with wealth. They are two totally different things.


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## Crackers Phinn (Apr 11, 2019)

Kanky said:


> Still *black women need more options for socio-economic upward mobility than staying single for life.* That just sounds depressing. Marrying your equal or marrying up usually leads to a higher net worth.


  Especially when that staying single for life means being in a relationship where you do everything as a married couple except make it legal.  Everybody throws Oprah out as the new model for monied women in relationships but no doubt Steadman standard of  living is subsidized by Oprah's.  I don't care what kind of old money family dude come from, he wouldn't live how he live or play how he play if it wasn't on Oprah's dime but the difference between their dynamic and the average upwardly mobile middle class chick is every dollar that Oprah spends on Steadman (and Gail) is a tax write off.     



Kanky said:


> Even though the have a child out of wedlock thing is a proven failure they are still trying convince black women that they should do so. The authors are a white male lawyer, a white woman feminist and a black man. No black women. *They are probably all comfortably married while encouraging black women to struggle. *These well educated white people are trying to use black women to further their “progressive policy goals” while enjoying an upper middle class life.


Yep.  But at the same time black women as a collective embrace struggle as a virtue so those folks are selling it to the right audience.


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## Southernbella. (Apr 11, 2019)

nubiangoddess3 said:


> But to make it into the middle class Black women must  pay student loans down. Black women in America with degrees have a negative wealth.  So, while one can earn a higher wages while being single, due to debt very few blacks in America are in the middle class.
> 
> Also this article is confusing wages with wealth. They are two totally different things.



That's the problem with class designations. They can be and usually are based on several factors. But you absolutely can be middle class with a negative wealth. 

Just an aside, but black researchers have been saying for years that it's pointless to use the same standards for white folks and black folks when it comes to class status because historically, status in our community wasn't necessarily tied to wages (which makes sense given the wage gap and lack of opportunities for employment). My great grandfather was a Pullman Porter, which was considered the first middle class job available to AAs. To whites, that would have been considered a servant position. So it's tricky. And I find any researcher who doesn't acknowledge this to be intellectually dishonest.


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## scoobygirl (Apr 11, 2019)

Southernbella. said:


> That's the problem with class designations. They can be and usually are based on several factors. But you absolutely can be middle class with a negative wealth.
> 
> Just an aside, but black researchers have been saying for years that it's pointless to use the same standards for white folks and black folks when it comes to class status because historically, status in our community wasn't necessarily tied to wages (which makes sense given the wage gap and lack of opportunities for employment). My great grandfather was a Pullman Porter, which was considered the first middle class job available to AAs. To whites, that would have been considered a servant position. So it's tricky. And I find any researcher who doesn't acknowledge this to be intellectually dishonest.



One of my great grandfathers was shift supervisor at a phosphate mine and the other was a Pullman Porter both were consider solid middle class jobs. They provided a comfortable life for their families in all black communities in the south. This version of middle class made sense for the time period.


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## Crackers Phinn (Apr 11, 2019)

Le Sigh


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## MilkChocolateOne (Apr 11, 2019)

Crackers Phinn said:


> Le Sigh


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## Crackers Phinn (Apr 11, 2019)

MilkChocolateOne said:


>


It's okay.  I'm sure he's got plenty of takers.


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## Brwnbeauti (Apr 11, 2019)

Crackers Phinn said:


> Le Sigh


Pass


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## MilkChocolateOne (Apr 12, 2019)

Crackers Phinn said:


> It's okay.  I'm sure he's got plenty of takers.



true


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## RUBY (Apr 12, 2019)

So what happens if you're a single successful black woman but you want children?


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## nubiangoddess3 (Apr 12, 2019)

Southernbella. said:


> That's the problem with class designations. They can be and usually are based on several factors. But you absolutely can be middle class with a negative wealth.
> 
> Just an aside, but black researchers have been saying for years that it's pointless to use the same standards for white folks and black folks when it comes to class status because historically, status in our community wasn't necessarily tied to wages (which makes sense given the wage gap and lack of opportunities for employment). My great grandfather was a Pullman Porter, which was considered the first middle class job available to AAs. To whites, that would have been considered a servant position. So it's tricky. And I find any researcher who doesn't acknowledge this to be intellectually dishonest.



I’m not arguing if black ppl should be judge by the same standards, but surly having negative wealth excludes anyone from the middle class.


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## Kanky (Apr 12, 2019)

nubiangoddess3 said:


> I’m not arguing if black ppl should be judge by the same standards, but surly having negative wealth excludes anyone from the middle class.


Middle class is determined by income, profession, education and home ownership. The average doctor has a negative net worth for years after medical school but most people would consider doctors to be at least middle class because of income, education and profession. Middle class is a socio-economic group, not one that is solely determined by networth.


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## Southernbella. (Apr 12, 2019)

nubiangoddess3 said:


> I’m not arguing if black ppl should be judge by the same standards, but surly having negative wealth excludes anyone from the middle class.



Oh I didn't think you were. The rest of my post was an aside.


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## Crackers Phinn (Apr 12, 2019)

RUBY said:


> So what happens if you're a single successful black woman but you want children?


Children are very easy to get.


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## LiftedUp (Apr 12, 2019)

> *In the year 2000, close to half (48%) of all Black middle-class households (ages 25-44) were comprised of married couples with children*. That percent, though, was way down from 65% in 1980 and 58% in 1990.
> 
> Overall, across all social classes, there are fewer Black households comprised of never-married people living alone than married-with-children households. But *among those who have made it into the middle class and beyond, the percentage of SALAs (single and living alone) has increased over time. In 1980, 5.8% of all Black middle-class households were comprised of lifelong single people living alone. By 1990, that had increased to 9.1%. By 2000, it was all the way up to 14.3%. That means that single people living alone accounted for about 1 out of every 7 middle-class Black households in the year 2000.*



It's _a_ route but not _the only_ route. Marrying the right person is key as well as living within a reasonable budget and looking into other streams of income e.g. interest from investment, business ownership, rental etc.

I wouldn't advocate living unmarried and alone by choice unless you're an extreme introvert and loner.


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## Browndilocks (Apr 12, 2019)

I believe the article because it describes me.  Single, college educated,  living alone and no kids.  IDK about where I fall with income though because some years I make well into the 6 figures and other years I don't.  Plus I rent in Los Angeles and I don't have 2 million dollars to buy anything right now.  So I guess I'm middle class aspiration adjacent out here.


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## RUBY (Apr 12, 2019)

Crackers Phinn said:


> Children are very easy to get.



I don't understand.


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## Crackers Phinn (Apr 12, 2019)

RUBY said:


> I don't understand.


You asked what happens if you're a single successful woman who wants children  and the answer is there are men everywhere that will give those women all the children they want free of charge.  Will you still be part of the middle class? The answer depends on how successful you are.


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## Crackers Phinn (Apr 12, 2019)

LiftedUp said:


> It's _a_ route but not _the only_ route. *Marrying the right person is key* as well as living within a reasonable budget and looking into other streams of income e.g. interest from investment, business ownership, rental etc.
> 
> I wouldn't advocate living unmarried and alone by choice unless you're an extreme introvert and loner.


The bolded is 90% of the battle.


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## LiftedUp (Apr 12, 2019)

Another thing is that I would advise women to find career & financial success before marriage and children. It's easier and you're more flexible with your time and other resources. Unless you're marrying rich rich then both of you will have to make a substantial contribution to reach upper middle class if that's your desire.


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## Crackers Phinn (Apr 12, 2019)

LiftedUp said:


> Another thing is that I would advise women to find career & financial success before marriage and children. It's easier and you're more flexible with your time and other resources. Unless you're marrying rich rich then both of you will have to make a substantial contribution to reach upper middle class if that's your desire.


Even with a college degree the average woman is going to have a regular degular middle class job and not marry rich.  Also most people are going to date at least a year before making wedding plans so you gotta factor in "kissing some frogs time".  The optimal time to multi-task finding a husband with building a career is right out of undergrad or between 21-27.


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## bubbles12345 (Apr 12, 2019)

Crackers Phinn said:


> Even with a college degree the average woman is going to have a regular degular middle class job and not marry rich.  Also most people are going to date at least a year before making wedding plans so you gotta factor in "kissing some frogs time".  The optimal time to multi-task finding a husband with building a career is right out of undergrad or between 21-27.



I feel most aren't settled into their careers and finances until late 30s/early 40s. By then, it may be too late to have kids if that is what you want. So you kind have to find someone on track to career success in your late 20s/early 30s, if you want to marry and have kid(s). 

A lot of my friends want to be married with 4+ kids. And I'm like how sway...you are late 20s/early 30s with no ring in sight, still figuring out your career/in school, and have lots of debt. If they are in relationships, their boyfriends are in similar situations.  

If you wanted all Dem kids, you should have started earlier. Having a lot of kids late in the game or in general doesn't seem like a smart financial move to me.


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## ScorpioBeauty09 (Apr 13, 2019)

bubbles12345 said:


> I feel most aren't settled into their careers and finances until late 30s/early 40s. By then, it may be too late to have kids if that is what you want. So you kind have to find someone on track to career success in your late 20s/early 30s, if you want to marry and have kid(s).
> 
> A lot of my friends want to be married with 4+ kids. And I'm like how sway...you are late 20s/early 30s with no ring in sight, still figuring out your career/in school, and have lots of debt. If they are in relationships, their boyfriends are in similar situations.
> 
> If you wanted all Dem kids, you should have started earlier. Having a lot of kids late in the game or in general doesn't seem like a smart financial move to me.


Yeah, careers are taking longer to establish. It's why we're not having children at the replacement rate as a nation overall. When I was in college I envisioned getting married young, having a career and three children and spacing them out like my parents did. Nope. Not happening.


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## jennboo (Apr 14, 2019)

RUBY said:


> So what happens if you're a single successful black woman but you want children?



Procreate rich


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## HappilyLiberal (Apr 15, 2019)

Southernbella. said:


> I'm assuming the living alone variable refers to single non-parents because the strongest predictor of poverty for single women is motherhood.
> 
> This is interesting, though. I mentioned the other day that this age group in particular is placing less value on marriage their previous generations. Seems like it's actually beneficial for black folks.



Beneficial for black women.


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## HappilyLiberal (Apr 15, 2019)

RUBY said:


> So what happens if you're a single successful black woman but you want children?



Adoption!


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## LiftedUp (Apr 15, 2019)

Crackers Phinn said:


> The optimal time to multi-task finding a husband with building a career is right out of undergrad or between 21-27.



Not necessarily. If the average woman wants to achieve the goal stated in the OP, then she'll have to prioritize. Married women and women who are mothers have added responsibility than those who are not. So these formative years when you're supposed to taking risky career moves etc. will be replaced with taking a "safe" route to provide stability for your family.  There are a host of single and available older men who too sacrificed a social life in their formative years in order to build their career and wealth. I married one


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## Crackers Phinn (Apr 15, 2019)

LiftedUp said:


> Not necessarily. If the average woman wants to achieve the goal stated in the OP, then she'll have to prioritize. Married women and women who are mothers have added responsibility than those who are not. So these formative years when you're supposed to taking risky career moves etc. will be replaced with taking a "safe" route to provide stability for your family. * There are a host of single and available older men who too sacrificed a social life in their formative years in order to build their career and wealth*. I married one



How much younger than your husband are you?

Men and women are on different biological timelines and are offering different things to the opposite sex in the desirability market.   A 30-50 year old man who spent his formative years building resources looking to marry will have a larger age range of partners to choose from than his female counterpart and he is less likely to run up against fertility issues the longer he waits to marry.   Men also have longer timelines to use women as place setters before "something better comes along" than do women.

I'm not saying that it's impossible for a woman in her late 40's to get married and give birth,  my 45 year old bestie just got married this weekend and she's expecting.  But that's not the norm for single/never married women in our age demographic and it definitely wasn't the way she planned things to go.


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## LiftedUp (Apr 15, 2019)

Crackers Phinn said:


> How much younger than your husband are you?



Same age born in the same year. We are 34. When I thought I was doing something in life (career wise) he was doing it both career and investment wise.

Now, everyone wants different things. We both grew up in solid middle class households and we both are desirous of breaking out of that social class.

We are "comfortable" financially wise. I wouldn't advocate for a woman 40+ still holding out to make it to the black middle class if she wants to have children. It isn't impossible, but one has to be realistic. However, when I look at my peers within my various work environments, most who are my age, who got married and settled down in their 20s, have not made it to middle management. However, my first boss for example, was at a senior management level in her late 50s, with one child in college and one in high school. Holding out a bit and taking those risks do pay off. Women who I see in top managerial roles before 40, often do not have children or are unmarried.


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## MomofThreeBoys (Apr 15, 2019)

LiftedUp said:


> Same age born in the same year. We are 34. When I thought I was doing something in life (career wise) he was doing it both career and investment wise.
> 
> Now, everyone wants different things. We both grew up in solid middle class households and we both are desirous of breaking out of that social class.
> 
> We are "comfortable" financially wise. I wouldn't advocate for a woman 40+ still holding out to make it to the black middle class if she wants to have children. It isn't impossible, but one has to be realistic. However, when I look at my peers within my various work environments, most who are my age, who got married and settled down in their 20s, have not made it to middle management. However, my first boss for example, was at a senior management level in her late 50s, with one child in college and one in high school. Holding out a bit and taking those risks do pay off. Women who I see in top managerial roles before 40, often do not have children or are unmarried.



34 is young.


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## Crackers Phinn (Apr 15, 2019)

LiftedUp said:


> Same age born in the same year. We are 34. When I thought I was doing something in life (career wise) he was doing it both career and investment wise.


How long from meeting your husband and your wedding day?  Because what I'm getting at is that the average woman doesn't wake up one day say, I'm going to date for  marriage and find herself walking down the aisle, 6-months to a year later.  Some women get lucky and the first dude she meets is the one and ready.  Most women will date multiple men before they find the right fit and he's on the same page as her.  Which is why it makes sense to get the ball rolling as early as possible.


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## LiftedUp (Apr 15, 2019)

Crackers Phinn said:


> How long from meeting your husband and your wedding day?  Because what I'm getting at is that the average woman doesn't wake up one day say, I'm going to date for  marriage and find herself walking down the aisle, 6-months to a year later.  Some women get lucky and the first dude she meets is the one and ready.  Most women will date multiple men before they find the right fit and he's on the same page as her.  Which is why it makes sense to get the ball rolling as early as possible.



I didn't say not to date. I said settling down early may stunt your career prospects/movements as a woman, which is in line with the article in the OP.  Except that it requires you to be single and childless forever which may not be the desire of many.


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## kxlot79 (Apr 16, 2019)

For Black women who are on a financial and career upward trajectory track, I don’t know why more research/articles don’t consider them hitching wagons to one another. 
Two of my very good friends joined up and bought a 4Bd/3Bt house— each has her own room/bath, and they rent out the third. They see the joint home ownership as a path to the next level... and 1 year+ in and it’s been smoother sailing than sharing with a deadbeat/petty/broker dude.
I can see myself doing this.
I read/saw something where Black single mothers were doing this as well— buying a house with a responsible mother with similar values & children in the same age range... seems to work better than shacking up with a dude who earns less than you and all the drama living with a man [(un)married] brings...


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## dancinstallion (Apr 16, 2019)

LiftedUp said:


> Same age born in the same year. We are 34. When I thought I was doing something in life (career wise) he was doing it both career and investment wise.
> 
> Now, everyone wants different things. We both grew up in solid middle class households and we both are desirous of breaking out of that social class.
> 
> We are "comfortable" financially wise. I wouldn't advocate for a woman 40+ still holding out to make it to the black middle class if she wants to have children. It isn't impossible, but one has to be realistic. However, when I look at my peers within my various work environments, most who are my age, who got married and settled down in their 20s, have not made it to middle management. However, my first boss for example, was at a senior management level in her late 50s, with one child in college and one in high school. Holding out a bit and taking those risks do pay off. Women who I see in top managerial roles before 40, often do not have children or are unmarried.




I thought you were in your 40s and he is in his 50s talking about older men.  
34 is only old to a 20 year old. 
Now 48+ is older to me.


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## LiftedUp (Apr 16, 2019)

dancinstallion said:


> I thought you were in your 40s and he is in his 50s talking about older men.
> 34 is only old to a 20 year old.
> Now 48+ is older to me.




I reread and can see why one would think that, I meant getting married earlier vs 21-27.  I never actually heard of that concept until this board. My parents always advocated getting married 20+.

The conversation trickled to that but it started with me stating that regarding the article in the OP, it is a route however it is not the only route. If you want to build wealth etc. and have a family, children etc., you should be strategic and imo it means as a woman, it may in many cases mean, using your 20s and early 30s to build you career and accumulate wealth.  There isn't a dearth of eligible men post 30 to get married to.


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## naturalgyrl5199 (Apr 17, 2019)

gimbap said:


> I can see this, but I've also said I could save more and pay down debt faster if I lived with someone else (in other words, shacked up or got married) because I could saving on housing expenses. But of course that would only work if I lived with a man who could pay the bills, and that's the only way I'm living with a man anyway


Real talk: I paid my debt off faster and my credit score hit the 800s shortly after we got married and before our careers took off.
But we waited 7 years before we had kids and that was by design. We had savings, learned a LOT about child-rearing, made plans, and established ourselves in our careers including choosing jobs that were extremely kid-friendly. We not rich but doing well. We both got promoted twice after we had the first baby DESPITE being off A LOT with her. I think--being established in our jobs, it was easy to transition to parenthood and then plan for the 2nd. We could be making way more in the private sector, but in our particular fields, where we are makes family possible while not hindering career goals.
There is a middle ground. I'm in travel groups where black couples and black families travel far and pretty regularly. And we not talking about lawyers and doctors. They regular degular folk.


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## naturalgyrl5199 (Apr 17, 2019)

Kanky said:


> Marriage to the wrong man or having children with the wrong man is bad for your financial situation so this doesn’t surprise me. Still black women need more options for socio-economic upward mobility than staying single for life. That just sounds depressing. Marrying your equal or marrying up usually leads to a higher net worth.
> 
> Also I read the summary of the report that they linked to and it is terrible.
> 
> ...


And for those who really want to get married...they need to be aware of that. I feel some kind of way about people who tell you to do one thing, while doing something else or benefitting from the status quo. Like when they told people they don't need to shower regularly or floss with all kinds of research saying doing so is a waste of time. I was like, nah son....floss daily and do it right. Shower daily...get clean. Emphasis on...do it right....how it works for you. Like what  just posted up thread.
For those who want to get married...do what YOU want. You can plan your babies. Time it, save. Marriage and motherhood ain't easy, but we ain't all skrugglin like that. I want everyone to live their best life...really. But research, research. Idk where I'm going but just sayin.


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## naturalgyrl5199 (Apr 17, 2019)

Farida said:


> The two biggest ways to have a lower socioeconomic status are to 1) have kids OOW 2) get divorced.
> 
> Facts.
> 
> ...


Yep!
Women....actually MEN really need to re-think parenthood when separating. I'm not silly, I know DH and I could divorce for whatever reason or I could leave this earth. I told him he need to be just as good at child-rearing as me. I don't want to clean him out with child support. He is a good dad and getting better with the domestic stuff. But he already knows I want 50-50 custody cause me getting a little extra money by keeping the kids like an 80/20 ain't a huge help. He can fight traffic in the school zones. He can be up at 2 AM with the sick kids and keep his lil child support. I'll be forging a relationship with a new boo on the days the babies are with dad. I'm not trying to be superwoman. I already am, but in 2019 men can do it too. We have to teach them and demand it. The point is...TIME is money as well. Black women who are single parents not only suffer through lack of funds but lack of time. Her having 50-50 custody may make it easier for her to work more hours or overtime, or less day care expense, or go on a much-needed girls trip. We have to re-think divorces and custody. You can leverage that loss of income other ways by re-thinking what we value. And we need to value ourselves to more than "how much child support we can get." You'll have a less resentful and more compliant co-parent. JMH(and hopeful)opinion.


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## naturalgyrl5199 (Apr 17, 2019)

Crackers Phinn said:


> Especially when that staying single for life means being in a relationship where you do everything as a married couple except make it legal.  Everybody throws Oprah out as the new model for monied women in relationships but no doubt Steadman standard of  living is subsidized by Oprah's.  I don't care what kind of old money family dude come from, he wouldn't live how he live or play how he play if it wasn't on Oprah's dime but the difference between their dynamic and the average upwardly mobile middle class chick is every dollar that Oprah spends on Steadman (and Gail) is a tax write off.
> 
> 
> Yep.  *But at the same time black women as a collective embrace struggle as a virtue so those folks are selling it to the right audience*.


See my comment above about co-parenting. Divorce. When I told hubby (jokingly) that he could keep his lil child support-I want 50-50 custody. He got suuuuper quiet. Our kids are young so he knows what that means. #noskrugglemovement


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## naturalgyrl5199 (Apr 17, 2019)

nubiangoddess3 said:


> I’m not arguing if black ppl should be judge by the same standards, but surly having negative wealth excludes anyone from the middle class.


I'm late but think of Dave Ramsey's target audience: Middle class white people in tens of thousands of dollars in debt. They have negative wealth. But they still live in big houses, drive expensive cars and send their kids to private school and the kids do camp, extra curricular activities, etc.....You can DEF be living middle class and be in deep debt and negative wealth. He and Suze have a cottage industry based on these folk...Middle class is too broad and needs to be redefined anyways. Meh.


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## Crackers Phinn (Apr 17, 2019)

naturalgyrl5199 said:


> *But we waited 7 years before we had kids and that was by design. We had savings, learned a LOT about child-rearing, made plans, and established ourselves in our careers including choosing jobs that were extremely kid-friendly. *We not rich but doing well. We both got promoted twice after we had the first baby DESPITE being off A LOT with her. I think--being established in our jobs, it was easy to transition to parenthood and then plan for the 2nd. We could be making way more in the private sector, but in our particular fields, where we are makes family possible while not hindering career goals.
> There is a middle ground. I'm in travel groups where black couples and black families travel far and pretty regularly. And we not talking about lawyers and doctors. They regular degular folk.


This is something that I don't think people understand about getting married.   There is no race to start a family the minute the ink is dry on the license.  The most stable long term marriages that I have observed were folks who were married 2+ years before having kids.


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## naturalgyrl5199 (Apr 17, 2019)

Crackers Phinn said:


> This is something that I don't think people understand about getting married.   There is no race to start a family the minute the ink is dry on the license.  The most stable long term marriages that I have observed were folks who were married 2+ years before having kids.


I mean, you gotta get to know one another as married people. Enjoy married with no kids. Its a thing. Traveling, waking up late, sleeping in. Couples trips, couples dates. We had a ball. Saved good money and moved up into our jobs. So now that #kidsIZlife...we don't feel like we "missed much". We enjoy the kids and the wild days and nights most times--lol. AND...we. knew. what. we. were. getting. in. to.
Its also why were are stopping at 2. Cuz finances, age, nerves. We enjoyed the baby days...now its time to get to the next chapter of raising them, and planning their college. We already got those college funds rolling. All this information on how to plan plan plan. No one under age 35 who are child-less should be taken unawares about the cost of children, how to make them and how to prevent/delay. Many people do understand and birth rates are not so much dipping but the age of first time parents is increasing. "Certain folk" are getting the message.


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## LivingInPeace (Apr 17, 2019)

My husband and I are middle class. No children. People we work with always make comments about “all this money” we have. We both work government jobs so we make  the same as everyone else who started the same time we did. The difference is that we don’t have children. We don’t have a big house in the suburbs with big suburban taxes. We live in a small house in a neighborhood virtually none of our coworkers would consider living in. Therefore, we have money in the bank. Money in mutual funds. Money in retirement accounts.  Little debt and spending money. When you’re a regular person you have to make choices. The 1 percenters can have it all. The middle class has to choose.


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## pirtgirl (Apr 18, 2019)

naturalgyrl5199 said:


> Real talk: I paid my debt off faster and my credit score hit the 800s shortly after we got married and before our careers took off.
> But we waited 7 years before we had kids and that was by design. We had savings, learned a LOT about child-rearing, made plans, and established ourselves in our careers including choosing jobs that were extremely kid-friendly. We not rich but doing well. We both got promoted twice after we had the first baby DESPITE being off A LOT with her. I think--being established in our jobs, it was easy to transition to parenthood and then plan for the 2nd. We could be making way more in the private sector, but in our particular fields, where we are makes family possible while not hindering career goals.
> There is a middle ground. *I'm in travel groups where black couples and black families travel far and pretty regularly.* And we not talking about lawyers and doctors. They regular degular folk.



Are there official travel groups like this? Would you mind sharing the names? We have two elementary aged children and often end up traveling alone because we don’t know many other black families who like to travel.


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## cinnespice (Apr 18, 2019)

pirtgirl said:


> Are there official travel groups like this? Would you mind sharing the names? We have two elementary aged children and often end up traveling alone because we don’t know many other black families who like to travel.


The traveling child on instagram is one.  The also post pretty frequently in Black Travel Movement. If you follow Black Travel Movement you get a lot of ideas from families traveling. Also you can do a search on instagram or facebook. As you follow one more suggested pages come up.


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## Theresamonet (Apr 18, 2019)

Traveling with a child (children) seems awful. It’s one of the things holding me back from having any presently.


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## RoundEyedGirl504 (Apr 18, 2019)

Theresamonet said:


> Traveling with a child (children) seems awful. It’s one of the things holding me back from having any presently.



I have had good experiences so far. But every kid is different. I was more anxious than anything.


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## Kanky (Apr 19, 2019)

Theresamonet said:


> Traveling with a child (children) seems awful. It’s one of the things holding me back from having any presently.


It is easy with one small child and two parents. Two is harder and with three you might want to stay home until everyone is at least 5.  My youngest is 5 and everyone travels really well.


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## naturalgyrl5199 (Apr 20, 2019)

Theresamonet said:


> Traveling with a child (children) seems awful. It’s one of the things holding me back from having any presently.


My oldest was the most rambunctious when she was 3. We did her first flight at night from Fl to Texas and she was angelic. We were more anxious than anything. And there were some terrible beasties on that flight. Speak to them about expectations and be flexible and patient. If you are a relaxed parent, firm, but fun, you’ll pass that down to the kids. It’s the same when they are in restaurants (my wild kid is good there as well) and in other public places. But check those travel groups and families with 2+ kids traveling.


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## naturalgyrl5199 (Apr 20, 2019)

Kanky said:


> It is easy with one small child and two parents. Two is harder and with three you might want to stay home until everyone is at least 5.  My youngest is 5 and everyone travels really well.


Yeah my oldest is 5 but the baby is 1 and right now car trips are ridiculous. Stressful for me. We just did 2 and we have 2 more coming. But just short 4-5 hours max. We’ll fly again when she is 3. 
My brothers kids have been flying regularly since she 1. But they are slightly more reserved and my sis in law is kinda on the firm/strict side. So it depends. She has her stories though. 
But like us, my brother and his wife closed the baby shop at 2 kids too.


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## naturalgyrl5199 (Apr 20, 2019)

Theresamonet said:


> Traveling with a child (children) seems awful. It’s one of the things holding me back from having any presently.


Honestly, your kids will be good ones. I’ve been in the maternal child business 12 years and a lot of the problem is the unprepared parents. They flow through life thinking their kids will behave by osmosis rather than actual discipline, direction and guidance. And that’s the problem.


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## Theresamonet (Apr 20, 2019)

RoundEyedGirl504 said:


> I have had good experiences so far. But every kid is different. I was more anxious than anything.





Kanky said:


> It is easy with one small child and two parents. Two is harder and with three you might want to stay home until everyone is at least 5.  My youngest is 5 and everyone travels really well.





naturalgyrl5199 said:


> Honestly, your kids will be good ones. I’ve been in the maternal child business 12 years and a lot of the problem is the unprepared parents. They flow through life thinking their kids will behave by osmosis rather than actual discipline, direction and guidance. And that’s the problem.



I mostly meant how am I supposed to have fun if I have to take care of kids while traveling/vacationing.


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## MomofThreeBoys (Apr 20, 2019)

Theresamonet said:


> I mostly meant how am I supposed to have fun if I have to take care of kids while traveling/vacationing.


You do what I do, take mom and dad. Free trip for them, free babysitting and cooking for me.


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## Evolving78 (Apr 20, 2019)

Theresamonet said:


> I mostly meant how am I supposed to have fun if I have to take care of kids while traveling/vacationing.


You don’t. You still have to be on mommy duty. That’s why folks need a vacation afterwards, and folks always have their houses extra messy and disorganized coming back from one..


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## Kanky (Apr 20, 2019)

Theresamonet said:


> I mostly meant how am I supposed to have fun if I have to take care of kids while traveling/vacationing.


Leave the kids with their grandparents.


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## IslandMummy (Apr 20, 2019)

Theresamonet said:


> I mostly meant how am I supposed to have fun if I have to take care of kids while traveling/vacationing.


Depends on the purpose of the vacation, when we go on family trips the priority is for the kids to have a good time. We pick places that won’t bore us to tears but still a good time for the small people. 

If it’s anything you need a grandparent or a nanny to come with or leave them babies at home! I can’t wait for my MIL to get here.


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## naturalgyrl5199 (Apr 22, 2019)

Theresamonet said:


> I mostly meant how am I supposed to have fun if I have to take care of kids while traveling/vacationing.


Ah! Good point.
DH and I were talking about the difference between trips for the kids, then trips for us. We decided to travel to Europe and SAfrica or West Africa when they are school aged for the educational aspect. Then do European trips just for us like the South of France, and other Romantic things. Some families brings a relative or trusted friend or help. My sister is currently single with no kids and came with us  when I had just gotten pregnant with the baby, and kept our then 3.5 YO for a few hours while we did some adult things. She enjoyed spending time spoiling her niece and took plenty of selfies and video snaps....making the other relatives jealous....It was a part business trip (investment) for us but we did have some fun as well. The rich do this...and bring trusted relatives or au pair. Why can't we?


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