# Abortion Question



## lejardinier (Nov 16, 2007)

??????????


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## Keen (Nov 16, 2007)

Gurl..... You don't know what you're starting. So who's going to play referee for this thread?


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## MizzBrown (Nov 16, 2007)

Get ready to rumble cause these ladies are gonna do everything but crucify you. Very sensitive topic.

BTW, I am christian and PRO-CHOICE. And it ain't gonna change for no one unless Jesus himself comes down and tells me otherwise.


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## Cichelle (Nov 16, 2007)

Oh, man....


Should I?


Let me think about it. _Maybe_ I'll be back.


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## PaperClip (Nov 16, 2007)

Ok... I'll say it:

It would be helpful to use words to articulate a question. As has been stated, the abortion issue is both sensitive and complex and therefore, clarity is helpful in order to cultivate robust responses. Which brings me to another point about the notion of inevitable intensive and reckless conflict from this topic. It is possible to have a "rigorous" conversation about this topic without disrespect. It may be necessary to acknowledge that as this topic has been posted in the CHRISTIAN FELLOWSHIP FORUM, it should be expected that some (majority?) of the responses would align with the range of Christian beliefs as put forth from Christianity...at least the broad strokes of the faith....

I'll leave it at that.


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## Shimmie (Nov 16, 2007)

Actually it will NEVER matter what man says or what man thinks.  It what God says.  "Thou Shalt Not Kill".  Period!  That will never change.

For those who call themselvs Christians and 'Pro-Choice".... Hmmmmm.  "Choose you this day whom you will serve..."  God says plainly that He has called Heaven and earth as His witness, "Choose Life or Death, blessing or cursing...therefore choose Life".   Period.  It's just that plain. 

It does not matter what man/woman says in opposition to this.  Those who call themselves Christian had better consider that they lie to themselves and to the Lord, for Jesus plainly said, "Why call unto me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things I command?"   

You cannot have it YOUR way.  It's God's way and no other.  You can say that you can as long as you want, but God's way will never change just for one to have 'their' way.  It won't.  period.   

For a man's ways and thoughts MAY seem right to him, but the way thereof is destruction. 

Just admit the truth of the matter.  *That you disagree with God*.  And you do, totally.  Though you may call yourself Christian, you still have problems adhering to and accepting the Truth which He commands, which is *'Thou Shalt Not Kill'.* 

We do not make the rules...He does and there is nothing that anyone can say or do about it.  Nothing!  You can quote 'I disagree' or you call turn blue, black or even green in the face, but it still will not change just because you disagree.  It won't.  It simply won't.  

Keep living and eventually you will have to honor it as God's command or die with a lie. 

To the OP, I agree, for this cause there are women who need loving support and to know that they can get past this and start over again.  I applaude your love and concern for this much needed ministry.  

This IS the Christianity forum and in Christianity we honor life, not destroy it. There is no such thing as giving Pro Choice to kill.


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## lejardinier (Nov 16, 2007)

I originally had a paragraph up and wanted to get rid of it ASAP. I edited it but wasn't able to submit unless I put something in the content box. I left the off topic forum to come to this forum because of the rules that are posted on  this forum. I thought that I could get my questioned answered, but I don't think it's possible. If you know of a way for me to completely remove everything please let me know. I've sent a PM to the moderator. Thanks.


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## lejardinier (Nov 16, 2007)

Dear Shimmie,
I am in tears here as I read your answer. I didn't want to start anything up in this forum which is why I left off topic thinking that I could get an answer to my question. I read the rules and thought that this was the Christian Fellowship Forum which is why I came here. Thank you so much for your answer. I  really appreciate the fact that you took the time.


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## cheetarah1980 (Nov 16, 2007)

You can't legislate morals/what people believe.  Abortion goes against my Christian beliefs.  But far be it for me to put my beliefs on anyone else.  God doesn't want us to follow him out of compulsion, but rather the desire of our heart.


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## Shimmie (Nov 16, 2007)

MizzBrown said:


> Get ready to rumble cause these ladies are gonna do everything but crucify you. Very sensitive topic.
> 
> *BTW, I am christian and PRO-CHOICE.* And it ain't gonna change for no one unless Jesus himself comes down and tells me otherwise.


That's a big comment, but only that a comment, that satan uses to deceive and trip people up.   For if Jesus, Himself were to come down and confront you concerning this, you'd bow your head in shame, for did He not say, "I came to give Life and Life everlasting..."  The life Jesus gave us does not include abortion.  Abortion is death of a baby...a life which is given by God.  

Jesus isn't going to come down to face you with this and you are fully aware of it.  He knows it's just 'talk' and pride.  He also knows it would scare you to death, literally.  For His glory alone made all hell to tremble; it would surely tremble you.  You can't have it the world's way and love Jesus.  He says, "If you love me, you'll keep my commandments".   

I don't doubt that you believe in Jesus Christ, but it has to be all the way and His way, not ours.   It will always be His way. 

Peace and Blessings to you.


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## MizzBrown (Nov 16, 2007)

cheetarah1980 said:


> *You can't legislate morals/what people believe.* Abortion goes against my Christian beliefs. But far be it for me to put my beliefs on anyone else. God doesn't want us to follow him out of compulsion, but rather the* desire of our heart*.


 
In total agreement.


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## Shimmie (Nov 16, 2007)

cheetarah1980 said:


> You can't legislate morals/what people believe. Abortion goes against my Christian beliefs. But far be it for me to put my beliefs on anyone else. God doesn't want us to follow him out of compulsion, but rather the desire of our heart.


True we can't, But are we to allow the world to shut our rights down by voicing their foolishness and expecting us not to 'minister' truth. 

I'm not forcing anything, but I will tell the truth and I refuse to apologize for it.  That's why the world is in such a mess now.  They're getting away with far too much and we're not speaking up. 

 I'm not in diagreement with what you are saying...I know where you're coming from, yet we still have to let what we know to be the truth be heard just as loud as the world utters its lies and foolishness. 

Abortions have messed up too many persons lives to be quiet about it.  Whoever has pride in abortion has a serious problem.


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## Cichelle (Nov 16, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Ok... I'll say it:
> 
> It would be helpful to use words to articulate a question. As has been stated, the abortion issue is both sensitive and complex and therefore, clarity is helpful in order to cultivate robust responses. Which brings me to another point about the notion of inevitable intensive and reckless conflict from this topic. It is possible to have a "rigorous" conversation about this topic without disrespect. *It may be necessary to acknowledge that as this topic has been posted in the CHRISTIAN FELLOWSHIP FORUM, it should be expected that some (majority?) of the responses would align with the range of Christian beliefs as put forth from Christianity...at least the broad strokes of the faith....*
> 
> I'll leave it at that.



If that was to me (and I'm not saying it was...just in case), you don't have to worry. My only contribution to this thread was going to be to direct people to a source that explains the views of some Christians who are pro-choice. A "rigorous" conversation generally includes more than one perspective. However, I have no interest in personally being a part of the conversation in an environment such as this, where the views of people of other religions are not welcome.  

Peace.


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## Caramela (Nov 16, 2007)

I'd be interested to know what the OP's original question was before she erased it.


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## dlewis (Nov 16, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Ok... I'll say it:
> 
> *It would be helpful to use words to articulate a question*. As has been stated, the abortion issue is both sensitive and complex and therefore, clarity is helpful in order to cultivate robust responses. Which brings me to another point about the notion of inevitable intensive and reckless conflict from this topic. It is possible to have a "rigorous" conversation about this topic without disrespect. It may be necessary to acknowledge that as this topic has been posted in the CHRISTIAN FELLOWSHIP FORUM, it should be expected that some (majority?) of the responses would align with the range of Christian beliefs as put forth from Christianity...at least the broad strokes of the faith....
> 
> I'll leave it at that.


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## MizzBrown (Nov 16, 2007)

Caramela said:


> I'd be interested to know what the OP's original question was before she erased it.


 
LOL, you may not want to know at this point.


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## gone_fishing (Nov 16, 2007)

What did the original post say?


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## lejardinier (Nov 16, 2007)

I asked the moderators to help me out because I didn't know how to edit myself out of here. I left off topic because I read the rules here and thought that I could get my question answered. I don't want to cause a problem with my abortion question anymore and I thought I could get it answered in the Christian forum because my question was about God condoning abortion and whether or not we could come together to help women who choose to keep their babies and women who are suffering from post-abortion trauma. Thanks for your question. Hope my answer helps.


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## dlewis (Nov 16, 2007)

lejardinier said:


> I asked the moderators to help me out because I didn't know how to edit myself out of here. I left off topic because I read the rules here and thought that I could get my question answered. I don't want to cause a problem with my abortion question anymore and I thought I could get it answered in the Christian forum because my question was about God condoning abortion and whether or not we could come together to help women who choose to keep their babies and women who are suffering from post-abortion trauma. Thanks for your question. Hope my answer helps.



Ask the mods to lock or delete this thread.  (If this is your conclusion)


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## MizzBrown (Nov 16, 2007)

adequate said:


> What did the original post say?


 
OFF TOPIC but I LOVE your Signature quote. If that aint the truth then I don't know what is.


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## Shimmie (Nov 16, 2007)

lejardinier said:


> Dear Shimmie,
> I am in tears here as I read your answer. I didn't want to start anything up in this forum which is why I left off topic thinking that I could get an answer to my question. I read the rules and thought that this was the Christian Fellowship Forum which is why I came here. Thank you so much for your answer. I really appreciate the fact that you took the time.


I didn't mean to come in and make this a 'bad' thread.  I'm sorry if I made you cry 'sad', hurtful tears.  

I support what you are sharing.  Because abortion is wrong, there has to be a 'haven' where women who have had abortions can come and re-live their lives again in peace and not torment of the past.

We've ALL sinned and still are sinners and we ALL have fallen short of God's expectations.  Things in life happen!  They happen!  Women are raped, molested, and have been impregnated via means which were outside of love. 

I am a child of a rape victim.  My grandmother was raped by her brother-in-law, her sister's husband when she was 12 years old.  She gave birth to my father at the age of 13.  As a matter of fact she had him on her 13the Birthday, on March 13.  YET, she kept my father...a Blessing indeed.  

And had she not, I would not be here.  

Now I know this may be headache for hell and for several persons on this forum, but I'm here in this life and earth where God has placed me and I'm not going anywhere until He says so.  

I know there are extenuating circumstances for which many women feel they are justified to abort.  But it's still not God's way nor His plan or command.  It's not.  As much and as sad as these circumstances are, it still doesn't change God's command.  When it comes to choosing the life between a mother and child, that's a decision that has nothing to do with Pro-Choice, it's between God and the person involved.   

As for Pro Choice, too many women are having abortions as a means of birth control for foolish recreation.  That's uncalled for and it's wrong.  These persons have a problem with Life and making rational decisions.

Yet, there are those who were just 'lost' and hurting, having no answers and gave in to having an abortion.  It happens and this is where your heart for ministry comes into play.  All of these women need love, no matter what precluded in their lives.  They all need and deserve love and ministry.

We just can't sit back and allow the world to suck them in with the lie that abortion is pro choice, when it truth is is pro death. 

Peace and love to you, angel.   Say what you have to say.  Everyone else and or will.  Speak it and move on to where God leads you.  Don't concern yourself with who agrees or disgrees.  The truth is that no one owns Heaven or hell to put you in.  God does.  AND it is He whom we are to be concerned, and live in peace with Him.


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## Shimmie (Nov 16, 2007)

Caramela said:


> I'd be interested to know what the OP's original question was before she erased it.


To have a ministry for women who have had abortions.  An outreach of love and support.


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## PaperClip (Nov 16, 2007)

Cichelle said:


> If that was to me (and I'm not saying it was...just in case), you don't have to worry. My only contribution to this thread was going to be to direct people to a source that explains the views of some Christians who are pro-choice. A "rigorous" conversation generally includes more than one perspective. However, I have no interest in personally being a part of the conversation in an environment such as this, where the views of people of other religions are not welcome.
> 
> Peace.


 
Welcome and hospitality can be subjective and according to personal perception. I think to state that the Christian forum is where one might find Christian-laced opinions is not inherently inhospitable. 

I don't believe you and I have had any negative encounters in any forum. I respect what you bring to the conversation and I don't think you feel that uncomfortable here....(Smile)....


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## PaperClip (Nov 16, 2007)

Shimmie said:


> To have a ministry for women who have had abortions. An outreach of love and support.


 
I wish the OP had kept her question open for us to think about and speak to.... that's a beautiful and needed ministry....


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## Shimmie (Nov 16, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> I wish the OP had kept her question open for us to think about and speak to.... that's a beautiful and needed ministry....


It definitely is a beautiful and much needed ministry. 

She didn't want to start any trouble here. The posts that followed her Opening Post gave her the impression that it would cause a big uproar over here and she didn't want that to happen. I admire what she wants to do and she chose to do it here. She has a 'peaceful' heart.


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## MizzBrown (Nov 16, 2007)

But where are they? That's why I think a lot of women take their abortions to their grave. Their own church members silently and verbally judge them and there isn't an outreach program in sight for them. When the elders do see a woman with 2 or 3 kids and can barely support herself with no father around because she chose to keep them, then they talk about her then as well.

I've seen it on both sides and I know someone who doesn't think I know that she had an abortion and i think she is taking it to the grave. The minute she says something to the tune of her having one, who knows what will happen.

And in all honesty,what church do you know will have a ministry like this? That's the scary part. Not mine. They mean well, but try saying something as controversial as such and its a totally different story.


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## PaperClip (Nov 16, 2007)

Shimmie said:


> It definitely is a beautiful and much needed ministry.
> 
> She didn't want to start any trouble here. The posts that followed her Opening Post gave her the impression that it would cause a big uproar over here and she didn't want that to happen. I admire what she wants to do and she chose to do it here. She has a 'peaceful' heart.


\

Shimmie! (((HUGS))):

The BIBLE says in Matthew 11:12 "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force."

I like this translation: "From the days of John the Baptist until now, the holy nation of heaven has suffered very much. Fighting men try to take it." (NLV)

The OP can't concern herself about causing an uproar. Look at her ministry! Now that's gonna start an uproar! An uproar for good!

But the LORD is our light and our salvation! Whom shall we fear? The Lord is the strength of our life, of whom shall we be afraid? When sinful men, and all who hated me, came against me to destroy my flesh, they tripped and fell."

We are victorious in the Lord Jesus Christ!


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## LaRobinWolfe76 (Nov 16, 2007)

lejardinier said:


> I asked the moderators to help me out because I didn't know how to edit myself out of here. I left off topic because I read the rules here and thought that I could get my question answered. I don't want to cause a problem with my abortion question anymore and I thought I could get it answered in the Christian forum because my question was about God condoning abortion and whether or not we could come together to help women who choose to keep their babies and women who are suffering from post-abortion trauma. Thanks for your question. Hope my answer helps.



I will say this and I'll make it short and sweet just like me (LOL) just trying to bring some light to this serious topic. 

Anyway, I am a christian woman and we all fall short and yes Jesus is the only perfect christian there was, is and ever will be this is why he took on our past, present and future sins. Your struggles are not mine and mine are not yours but we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and all sin is the same in God's eyes and I can say that because in 2003 after my divorce I became pregnant with a child the father did not want me to have it and so I consulted my mother and she told me I was a strong woman and that I made it with 2 alone so I could make it with 3 alone and I said I can't. I'm 20 weeks/5 mos and I don't know what to do and she said well I don't know what to tell you I only know God is the only one who is ordained to give and take life you just need to pray about it and she hung the phone up on me. I cried so hard and I fell on my knees it was on a Sunday evening I told the Lord the situation was too much for me to bear alone and I needed deliverance on Tuesday I took my final exams on Wednesday morning I was on my way to drop my daughter off to the sitters house that was 5 blocks away from mine and a passenger van struck me on my driver's side and the force caused my car to flip over and my dughter was in the seat behind me and both her and I was dangling from the car the baby was killed instantly and 3 days later I delivered a stillborn. Due to the injuries from the accident and the complications from the delivery to my amazement and astonishment in May of this year I again became pregnant by my fiance and he said that he didn't want me to have the baby and I again said I didn't believe in abortion and I was going to carry out the pregnancy and somehow at 20 weeks/5 mos I went to find out the sex of the baby and there was no heartbeat and I again delivered a stillborn at 20 weeks and it baffled the doctors on how I miscarried 2 babies at 20 weeks that I wanted very much and the fathers didn't but the one thing I stood firm on was God's will and his word despite the fact that I am a sinner God's love, grace and mercy is sufficient, everlasting and unchanging and no action comes without consequences. The pain of the trauma of having to deliver a stillborn baby will forever be with me and believe it or not the first was a little girl named Alycia Marie and the second was a boy named Andrew Christian and I can tell you this if it hurts this bad and I didn't cause it I don't know how I could have dealt with it knowing I did.


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## Shimmie (Nov 16, 2007)

LaRobinWolfe76 said:


> I will say this and I'll make it short and sweet just like me (LOL) just trying to bring some light to this serious topic.
> 
> Anyway, I am a christian woman and we all fall short and yes Jesus is the only perfect christian there was, is and ever will be this is why he took on our past, present and future sins. Your struggles are not mine and mine are not yours but we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and all sin is the same in God's eyes and I can say that because in 2003 after my divorce I became pregnant with a child the father did not want me to have it and so I consulted my mother and she told me I was a strong woman and that I made it with 2 alone so I could make it with 3 alone and I said I can't. I'm 20 weeks/5 mos and I don't know what to do and she said well I don't know what to tell you I only know God is the only one who is ordained to give and take life you just need to pray about it and she hung the phone up on me.
> 
> ...


All I can do is give you a big sister hug...you've really come through a lot and I admire your strength.  God bless you.


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## Shimmie (Nov 16, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> \
> 
> Shimmie! (((HUGS))):
> 
> ...


Excellent RR...Excellent  

satan will always challenge and try to hinder what's not on his agenda.  Ministering love to those who have had an abortion, is definitely not on his agenda.  he would love to see women living in torment and not knowing that God still loves them and wants them to begin again.


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## Caramela (Nov 16, 2007)

Shimmie said:


> To have a ministry for women who have had abortions.  An outreach of love and support.



That really changes the entire purpose of the thread... To the OP's original question, how would you propose that be done?


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## Shimmie (Nov 16, 2007)

MizzBrown said:


> But where are they? That's why I think a lot of women take their abortions to their grave. Their own church members silently and verbally judge them and there isn't an outreach program in sight for them. When the elders do see a woman with 2 or 3 kids and can barely support herself with no father around because she chose to keep them, then they talk about her then as well.
> 
> I've seen it on both sides and I know someone who doesn't think I know that she had an abortion and i think she is taking it to the grave. The minute she says something to the tune of her having one, who knows what will happen.
> 
> And in all honesty, what church do you know will have a ministry like this? That's the scary part. Not mine. They mean well, but try saying something as controversial as such and its a totally different story.


Actually there are many out there.  We can't say that there are none just because we haven't seem them.  There's a serious call for this type of ministry and God has laid upon many hearts to hear and answer the call to heal. 

http://www.priestsforlife.org/afterabortion/index.htm

http://www.safehavenministries.com/

http://www.aodonline.org/AODOnline/...+offers+healing+to+those+hurt+by+abortion.htm

http://www.ppl.org/Ministry_AffectedByAbortion.html

http://www.postabortionhelp.org/Resources/resources.html

*Do Not Lose Hope:*

http://www.albahouse.org/hope.htm

*Catholic Women who Have Had Abortions:*

http://www.angelfire.com/me2/byzantinelinks/catholicwomen.html

*United States Conference of Catholic Bishops* 

http://www.usccb.org/prolife/publicat/postabor.shtml

This site has a list of healing resources and shares about a poster with a loving message:

_"If you're suffering because of an abortion, don't suffer alone."_

*Path: Post Abortion Treatment and Healing*

http://www.albahouse.org/hope.htm

Angel, I know it seems hopeless but it's not.  There are many, many more ministries for healing post an abortion.   So no longer can we ask, 'where are they?'  It depends on our focus and where we spend our time.  There are many neighborhood churches who do care and who do minister and they never condemn...they love as Jesus loves.   And if there's one lacking, let Jesus start with us, one on one to help heal a broken soul.  We're all quite capable.  All of us.


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## Ms Lala (Nov 16, 2007)

I work in counseling and a ministry for women struggling with issues post-abortion is much needed. Women who have had abortions are often too afraid to get help from the church because they would be so shunned. There isn't an outlet in many church. Because of the stigma I think it would have to be handled in a confidential manner such as a Christian counseling type of setting. The enemy is so horrible, he'll convince the woman to have the abortion then torture her w/the thoughts about how wrong it was afterward. This condemnation is not from God. THere are women who often here the baby crying, or who get seriously depressed afterward and even attempt to take their own life. 
I don't know if women would be willing to come to a group for this in their own church.  Maybe something internet based would be effective, I think it may be more appealing to women since their faces won't be seen and such shame is often attached to it.

Thank for the above post, I am going to use some of those resources.


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## Shimmie (Nov 16, 2007)

Caramela said:


> That really changes the entire purpose of the thread... To the OP's original question, how would you propose that be done?


I think it's already begun. Our precious OP presented the need for such and it's now up to each of us to be available. Each of us here has something to offer in love and support to one who has had an abortion.

Rather than object, respect that a person has been a situation that she felt no other recourse for solution, than an abortion. It's up to us to love her and heal her. 

I'm not going to tear a person down for having had an abortion.  Yet, I just won't lie in a forum discussion and say that it's okay to abort. We all error and make wrong decisions. Yet God is still our forgiver and loves us into restoration in the fullness of His love.


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## Shimmie (Nov 16, 2007)

Ms Lala said:


> I work in counseling and a ministry for women struggling with issues post-abortion is much needed. Women who have had abortions are often too afraid to get help from the church because they would be so shunned. There isn't an outlet in many church. Because of the stigma I think it would have to be handled in a confidential manner such as a Christian counseling type of setting. The enemy is so horrible, he'll convince the woman to have the abortion then torture her w/the thoughts about how wrong it was afterward. This condemnation is not from God. THere are women who often here the baby crying, or who get seriously depressed afterward and even attempt to take their own life.
> I don't know if women would be willing to come to a group for this in their own church. Maybe something internet based would be effective, I think it may be more appealing to women since their faces won't be seen and such shame is often attached to it.
> 
> Thank for the above post, I am going to use some of those resources.


 
Here, a person can call for counseling:

Rachel's Vineyard is a ministry of Priests for Life, and provides counseling and retreats for those who have had abortions. You may speak to someone there at 1-877-HOPE-4-ME

Actually one of those resources does have a forum for discussion...

This one has a forum and a chat room.  

http://www.safehavenministries.com/

Hope this helps.


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## MomofThreeBoys (Nov 16, 2007)

Sin is Sin.

ADULTERY = LIE = MURDER = FORNICATION = .......

Should I ask the government to punish those that commit adultery?

Should I ask the government to punsh fornicators?

Should I ask the government to punish those that don’t believe in a God much less acknowledge Christ as our Lord and Saviour a crime?

Choice is God-given.  

As a Christian, I would NEVER EVER counsel someone to have an abortion.  I believe life begins at conception. But I would never force someone not have one.  Just like I would never rip a cigarette from a pregnant women's mouth (even though I very much want too!)  If this child is still inside her body, I can't stop her.   She has to reconcile her actions with GOD not with me!  Now, once the baby is out, it's on!  I would definetely advocate to make cigarette smoking around children a crime.  

BUT I would never ask the government to punish a women for having an abortion.  I think people forget what would happen if we made abortion illegal.  

Being pro-life (in the government sense) means that you are willing to punish (with jail time) women who commit this crime of abortion.

I do not agree with the government executing judgement on issues that are personal in nature.  Laws are needed for our society to function properly.  So yes, there is a role for government in punishment and to deter crime. BUT this is a secular society, and therefore we should not expect our government to legislate OUR morality.   I beleive in the 10 commandments.  I believe in the biblical Sabbath.  Should I advocate our government enforce this belief?  Why not?   Where does it end?  As Christians, this is a slippery slope.  What happens when people with a different morality, want to impose theirs on us?  What defense will we have?


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## MomofThreeBoys (Nov 16, 2007)

Shimmie said:


> Actually it will NEVER matter what man says or what man thinks. It what God says. "Thou Shalt Not Kill". Period! That will never change.
> 
> For those who call themselvs Christians and 'Pro-Choice".... Hmmmmm. "Choose you this day whom you will serve..." God says plainly that He has called Heaven and earth as His witness, "Choose Life or Death, blessing or cursing...therefore choose Life". Period. It's just that plain.
> 
> ...


 

Huh?  I agree that Abortion is wrong.  I just don't believe that the government should punish women who do it. And that means I am in disagreement with God?


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## Shimmie (Nov 16, 2007)

natalied said:


> Huh? I agree that Abortion is wrong. I just don't believe that the government should punish women who do it. And that means I am in disagreement with God?


 
What we believe does not matter, God still says, "Thou shalt not kill." 

It's a hard call yet, the punishment should fit the crime. Let me explain why. Far too many women and men have taken this law of man (not God's law) of abortion to extreme measures.  To the point where life is not respected.  Do you really and honestly believe that God intended for abortion to be in operation.  Indeed not!  This literally grieves His heart to see life be disregarded in the way that it has.  Life is a Gift. Allow someone to block your airwaves, surely you will cry out for mercy so that you might live. 

How does a baby fetus feel?  Women are aborting like it's no tomorrow. It has truly gotten out of hand. There are no longer cases where medically an abortion may be deemed necessary to spare a woman's life or health, now it's done because someone got caught or careless or both and they abort for the convenience of not carrying a child full term.  The reasons are selfish and shallow.  They're just beginning a new career, a new life, a new boyfriend, some even as low as not wanting to look bad in a new bikini. Ahhhh, yes, it has gotten down to this level and God is heartbroken over this. Tell me He's not. 

Babies are being killed (*aborted*) at 20 weeks, where a 'fork' like instrument is probed into the base of their precious little sculls, until their life is drawn from them and their precious little heads are deflated. Where do we draw the line? Someone needs to go to jail for this cruel act of taking a baby's life. This is 'Hitler'.

Indeed, I would hate to see anyone be jailed for having to make an emotional decision regarding their lives. Especially in the case of rape, or a matter of health, life or death. There are indeed extenuating circumstances that may necessitate an abortation. But I'm speaking of those who do not have extenuating circumstances; it's too available now in the world we live in to anyone who asks for it. 

This is not a game. God is not in Heaven tossing dice in a game of Monopoly, saying, "Okay, who's next?" This is a horror to say the very least. Jesus said, "I am come that you may have LIFE and have it more abundantly." God said, 'Be fruitful and multiply" not decrease and die. Yet the world has chosen to do just that and wipe their consciousness with a ragged covering that says, 'pro choice' to kill by choice. 

Your post says something, that you do not see an unborn baby as life. For if you did you would see abortion the same as killing an infant who has been born. A baby is still a baby no matter what stage of growth that it is in, be it in or outside of the mother's womb. Just because we've yet to hold this baby in our arms and cuddle it, it is still the same life which is being developed inside of the mother's womb as one who is outside of the womb, be it a zygote, an embryo, or a fetus, this is still a baby. Therefore to abort is no different than to kill an infant outside of the womb.

As for the law, it will still convict and jail a person who causes a pregnant woman to lose her child. It's still taking a life. A pregnant woman is given much care for she carries life inside of her. Any act of purpose to end that life is killing and nothing less. 

Now this world would be quite empty of females if they were jailed, for there have been millions of abortions performed since Rowe vs Wade took over. Yet, only for the grace of God this has not happened; women and men are not being jailed for such. Abortion has literally become an epidemic, far out of control. It's only a God given right to respect and behold life, not destroy it. 

*So yes,* you do disagree with God. For there has to be a line drawn to stop this maddness. To those who think it's a game, or a sure market for financial gain, they deserve punishment. 

Yet for those in crisis, they need forgiveness and love and healing and no condemnation. 

It's not about forcing what we believe on others. It's more about lot letting the world force its homocidal persuasions to kill innocent babies who did not ask a soul for anything except, 'Please let me live." 

*Now to any woman who has had an abortion, you are not being condemned.*  I cannot express this more. We've all made decisions which seemed right, no matter what it is. We just have to call it what it is so that we can heal and begin again. I've been there. I've been forgiven and I've moved on in Jesus and I'm free. 

Jesus said, "Your sins have been forgiven you; Go and sin no more..." That's how special you are in His heart and always will be. And no one can take that from you. From this moment on...'Where are your accusers?" They no longer exist. But you do...move on in the loving arms of Jesus and allow no one to condemn you ever again. You've moved on from your sin and now it's time to live again and you will. Yes you will.


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## lejardinier (Nov 16, 2007)

Sending you a PM.


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## Shimmie (Nov 16, 2007)

lejardinier said:


> Sending you a PM.


lejardinier, this forum needs to know how loving your heart is.  It puts me to shame, that I never thought about this situation to help others to the extent that you have.  God bless you.


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## MomofThreeBoys (Nov 16, 2007)

Shimmie said:


> What we believe does not matter, God still says, "Thou shalt not kill."
> 
> It's a hard call yet, the punishment should fit the crime. Let me explain why. Far too many women and men have taken this law of man (not God's law) of abortion to extreme measures.  To the point where life is not respected.  Do you really and honestly believe that God intended for abortion to be in operation.  Indeed not!  This literally grieves His heart to see life be disregarded in the way that it has.  Life is a Gift. Allow someone to block your airwaves, surely you will cry out for mercy so that you might live.
> 
> ...


you didn't even address my other examples of SIN not being punishable by MAN's LAW.  Not suprised.  Because you cannot reconcile Man's Law with God's law.

And No, *YOU* disagree with God.  You disagree with God's gift of free choice.   God never intended for us to live in a sinful world.  But yet we are here. Why?  Because he gave Adam and Eve and you and I FREE CHOICE. There will be consequences for sin on this earth and at judgement.    You cannot exact God's punishment.  All you and this government can give is what you deem is a acceptable punishment.  What is it?  Two years, 5 years in jail, the death penalty?  Whatever it is, it is not God's judgement.  It is only Man's.  This is not equal to God's judgement. 

And once again you a wrong!  I do believe that it is a baby.  I also believe a sin is abomonation to God but I refuse to let a SECULAR government take the place of GOD.  The United States is not biblical ISRAEL.  This country cannot be trusted to enforce GOD's laws.    The best a secular government can do is regulate laws between man NOT between man and GOD.  And even that it is not doing well.  

You give government the right to enforce your beliefs, don't be surprised when one day THEIR beliefs will be forced on you.


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## lejardinier (Nov 16, 2007)

Thanks. It's not me or DH. It's all God.


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## divya (Nov 16, 2007)

I'm glad this came to the Christian forum. The freedom of choice is God-given. 
God in His LOVE for humanity and all His creations does not force us to follow Him, but rather allows us to choose to love Him and keep his commandments. It is amazing that such a mighty and powerful God would extend to us the opportunity to decide, but that alone reveals the awesomeness of His character. Because His love for us is true, He desires that our decision to follow Him be sincere and true. 

That being said, acknowledging the right to choose is recognizing the choice that the Lord gives all of us, and does not mean that a person condones wrongdoing. I am pro-life for myself, because I believe abortion is wrong. I will live by example and am also glad reach out to others and to show any woman (or man) in the valley of decision, that the Bible is against abortion. However, like in any decision between right and wrong, the choice ultimate belongs to that individual. Just think of Christ's example. He came to die for our sins and to show us how to live right, but never once did He force anyone to believe on Him. Every person must choose who they will serve, God or man.


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## divya (Nov 16, 2007)

The abortion issue is intertwined with church-state separation. For this reason alone, the right to choose must be maintained by the government. Some religions/denominations proclaim to be pro-life and others proclaim to be pro-choice. The only way to be neutral on this issue is to allow the individual to make the decision. To do the opposite is crossing the lines of separation between church and state.  The Bible itself maintains that church and state should be separate.

We need to be very careful. This goes beyond the abortion issue as now for example, some are pushing to make it a hate crime to speak out against homosexuality. This puts numerous religious leaders into a very difficult position. This issue of church-state separation is a loaded one, but my point is only that attempt to have the government dealing with these types of issues pushes this country in the wrong direction.


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## MomofThreeBoys (Nov 16, 2007)

divya said:


> The abortion issue is intertwined with church-state separation. For this reason alone, the right to choose must be maintained by the government. Some religions/denominations proclaim to be pro-life and others proclaim to be pro-choice. The only way to be neutral on this issue is to allow the individual to make the decision. To do the opposite is crossing the lines of separation between church and state.  The Bible itself maintains that church and state should be separate.
> 
> We need to be very careful. *This goes beyond the abortion issue as now for example, some are pushing to make it a hate crime to speak out against homosexuality. This puts numerous religious leaders into a very difficult position.* This issue of church-state separation is a loaded one, but my point is only that attempt to have the government dealing with these types of issues pushes this country in the wrong direction.



Have mercy!


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## divya (Nov 16, 2007)

natalied said:


> Have mercy!



http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/157874.aspx

We really need to be on our knees...


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## motherx2esq (Nov 16, 2007)

MizzBrown said:


> Get ready to rumble cause these ladies are gonna do everything but crucify you. Very sensitive topic.
> 
> *BTW, I am christian and PRO-CHOICE. And it ain't gonna change for no one unless Jesus himself comes down and tells me otherwise*.


 

Amen!  I think any decision anyone makes is between them and God!  No judgement from anyone else needed!


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## Shimmie (Nov 17, 2007)

natalied said:


> you didn't even address my other examples of SIN not being punishable by MAN's LAW. Not suprised. Because you cannot reconcile Man's Law with God's law.
> 
> And No, *YOU* disagree with God. You disagree with God's gift of free choice. God never intended for us to live in a sinful world. But yet we are here. Why? Because he gave Adam and Eve and you and I FREE CHOICE. There will be consequences for sin on this earth and at judgement. You cannot exact God's punishment. All you and this government can give is what you deem is a acceptable punishment. What is it? Two years, 5 years in jail, the death penalty? Whatever it is, it is not God's judgement. It is only Man's. This is not equal to God's judgement.
> 
> ...


Don't be upset.  I disagree with God about issues everyday of my life and I always will.  We ALL do; for as long as we are in this flesh, we will war against what 'thus saith the Lord.'    Anyone who says otherwise, they lie.  

As for the other sins, there are penalities that come with them and in many states, there are arrests for those you've mentioned.  

However this thread is about abortion, a hot topic and hot answers with a hot destiny.  God's laws are not an opinion nor will they ever be.  No matter who objects.  It's only by His grace and mercies which follow us each day, that we have not been punished as we should.  That's His word, not mine, yet I have lived it to know it.

Abortion should not be legalized, especially not to the degree that it has been.  You speak of the government or man's laws placing one in jail for this as wrong, yet it's GOD's law, not man that carries this penalty.  To be truthful most of the laws we've seen changed to conform to man's sinful nature, were originally based on God's commandments.  

Legalized abortion was designed by man and man alone.  It's already gone way beond it's original intent to protect mothers in danger of complications and rape and molested victims.  

You cannot make this right by saying God gave us the gift of free choice, for free choice is not a license to sin or to change God's commandments. 

Is is right for a teenager to have an abortion without parental knowledge or consent?   No, and it never will be.  YET, legalized has taken license to make this a law.   A law with a cover up lie that it's their right to do so.  This deserves penality, for it goes against parental rights as God has ordained.   Abortions are not a method of birth control, cover up for sin, nor to be free of an unwanted pregnancy.   Free choice doesn't make this right.   When God gives us a 'gift' He expects us to honor Him with it and to use our free choice wisely.  

As for forcing one to serve, honor God, of course you cannot make a person do anything.   But you can't be a doormat and not take and maintain your stand for God and what's right.   We can't stand with wet noodles for legs and feet.  We have to stand firm and not fear man.

Jesus didn't hesitate to speak the truth, whether it was warm or cold in tone.  He didn't bite His tongue with the religious rulers; He even called a woman a dog when she sought Him to heal her daughter; He didn't hesitate to call King Herod a homosexual (a fox, meaning effemient one).  Jesus wasn't a sissy in a white dress; He was a man and He is God! 

There's no getting around the fact that abortion is murder and it can't be taken lightly.  As Christians we cannot afford to not speak up and put a stop to this maddness.   I'm not afraid of being offensive if it means not allowing the world to pollute this earth I live upon. 

I have no doubt at all that you love the Lord and seek to please Him.  But we cannot sit back and settle for what's being done in this system.   As Christians, we have to have our voice heard and not back down.  Some laws should never be, and legalized abortion without limits is one of them.  Abortion is not a game.  It should only be used for medical reasons and not just because a woman got caught and seeks it for convenience.  Free choice is not a license to do so and it never will be. It's simply gone too far.

Take care


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## divya (Nov 17, 2007)

Shimmie said:


> Don't be upset.  I disagree with God about issues everyday of my life and I always will.  We ALL do; for as long as we are in this flesh, we will war against what 'thus saith the Lord.'    Anyone who says otherwise, they lie.
> 
> As for the other sins, there are penalities that come with them and in many states, there are arrests for those you've mentioned.
> 
> ...



But Shimmie, that's just it...

We are not disagreeing that abortion is wrong, because it certainly is a sin.  Further, it is misconstruing not just our point, but the Bible, to say that upholding the freedom of choice is condoning sin. 

I agree that we have to stand firm. That is why those of us who believe abortion is wrong must choose against abortion in our own lives.  We must live by example. We must be open to sharing this truth with others. That is not being a doormat, but practicing what we preach.

However, the Bible does not allow us to force our beliefs on anyone else and restrict their ability to chose right and wrong. I agree Jesus did not hesitate to speak the truth, but He never once forced anyone to follow Him.  It must have pained Him greatly to see people choose not follow Him, to see so many people call for His death. What those people did was wrong, sending an innocent man to die...the Messiah to die.  However, God the Father did not come down from heaven to stop it and neither did Jesus stop them from sending Him to die.  That is our greatest example and always will be. 

So yes, like Christ spoke out against sinfulness, we must speak out against abortion and make our voices heard, because it is wrong.  However, like Christ, we must still allow people to choose. Freedom of choice is certainly not a license to do wrong and never will be. It is what the Bible explains it to be - the opportunity to choose who we will serve. Many will choose man and many will choose God. What we must do is make sure that we exemplify Christ in everything that we do - that we are living witnesses - so that by watching us, people will want to choose God for themselves.

God bless.


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## Shimmie (Nov 17, 2007)

divya said:


> But Shimmie, that's just it...
> 
> We are not disagreeing that abortion is wrong, because it certainly is a sin. Further, it is misconstruing not just our point, but the Bible, to say that upholding the freedom of choice is condoning sin.
> 
> ...


I agree with your post and I want to tell you that it is also beautifully written. 

Hear me when I say, that people do have a right to choose. And we are to live by example. 

Yet the laws are still wrong for they legalize murder. We have a generation who could care less about how we as Christians live by example. The laws of this land have been changed in total opposition to what God commands. 

There's no such thing as the beautiful intent of sexual love between a man and a woman. Homosexuality has the law behind them; daring us and threatening us as Christians to even dare to speak against them, least we receive the penality. 

Hear me, I know what you are sharing regarding free choice; yet it's over riding OUR free choice as God's chosen. And we cannot allow these laws to be; we simply cannot. 

Legalized abortion was only the stargate and the open path to what we see occuring with gay marriages, gay rights, and the like. How so? If they dare to get by with that law, they dare to move on with another which opposes God's order and the path will continue which leads us to destruction. 

People do not want to feel 'bad' or responsible for what they do wrong. So now laws are being 'imposed' (yes imposed) upon us to make it easier and easier for one to feel right about committing illegal offenses and other sins.

There has to be a standard. Do you even realize how many Christians who are taking full liberties with legalized abortion? The right to be gay? Churches who have compromised and have given in only to be the 'quote' 'loving example'.   

It's not about free choice here. Neither is it forcing our beliefs upon anyone.  This mess is affecting our children who live with us and whom we take to Church with us and live with our example and yet the law tells them it's okay to disobey and to totally disregard what they're being taught by us. Our children are being taught more by the world's example than ours. The world's influence is having their rule. 

Having abortion laws restored to its original law of being a penalty is not taking away one's free choice. It's teaching this world that you cannot come against the natural order of things. It's teaches that you cannot be careless and committ a murder to justify it. One can still choose, but there is a penality for it. You cannot kill an innocent baby. Sin doesn't win. 

What is it about abortion that it needs to be legalized? Sometimes I think Christians use the 'freedom of Choice' catch phrase as a 'Trump card', meaning that they may need this abortion law to remain 'free' in case they may need it. It's the same out for them as it is for the world. 

Why not just legalize all crime and be done with all the courts, legal system, and the jails. Afterall, it's all about freedom of choice; so let everyone have their freedom and enjoy it. Bottomline, this can't happen and neither should it be that way with abortion. It's as wrong as these other offenses, if not worse. 

Abortion needs to go back to being illegal. 

Again divya, your post is beautifully shared. It really is.  I hope that I'm not offending you for it is not my intent at all. You take care angel. I wish you and your family a wonderful and happy Thanksgiving.


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## Nice & Wavy (Nov 17, 2007)

What will it profit a man (a woman in this case) if he/she gains the whole world and lose his/her soul?

Some people just need to realize that God is God and there is no skirting around the truth.  Say what you must, but in the end...God shall get the Glory in the lives of those who CHOOSE TO DO HIS WILL!


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## cheetarah1980 (Nov 17, 2007)

Shimmie said:


> I agree with your post and I want to tell you that it is also beautifully written.
> 
> Hear me when I say, that people do have a right to choose. And we are to live by example.
> 
> ...


 
I totally get what you're saying.  And in a Christian nation God's law would trump man's law any time.  The thing is, we cannot use Christian standards to set the laws of this country because there is no state sanctioned religion. 

We can teach our children that the laws of this land are not always in line with God's laws and commands.  And we can teach them that God's law trumps any nation's law any day.  

The only solution to this problem would be to turn America into a theocratic state and I don't see that happening any time soon.


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## Shimmie (Nov 17, 2007)

cheetarah1980 said:


> I totally get what you're saying. And in a Christian nation God's law would trump man's law any time. The thing is, we cannot use Christian standards to set the laws of this country because there is no state sanctioned religion.
> 
> We can teach our children that the laws of this land are not always in line with God's laws and commands. And we can teach them that God's law trumps any nation's law any day.
> 
> *The only solution to this problem would be to turn America into a theocratic state and I don't see that happening any time soon*.


 
Thanks Cheetarah...  Not just for me, but for all of us. The bolded made me smile and then say hmmmmm, and then 'wonder' :scratchch: 

You know..... this country was 'founded' on Biblical principles in totality and it thrived and God honored it and blessed us. However, we're losing ground and we can't just accept it. God honors and protects those who love Him. He heals their land. 

This world had total disregard that...

The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof and they and all that dwell therein. (Psalm 24). How dare anyone walk this earth and ignore God and God's gift of life and all that He has given us to have life...abundantly.

Cheetarah, I noticed a few months ago, that on the new dollar coins, they have eliminated 'In God We Trust." I was shocked! How sad...how very sad.  Who else can one trust...surely not man. 

*Proverbs 29* is so interesting to me regarding this topic...I've been reading it line by line and then meditating and reflecting upon the verses individually. Check this out.

*Verse 2:* When the godly are in authority, the people rejoice. But when the wicked are in power, they groan... (I'm groaning for sure). 

*Verse **16:* When the wicked are in authority, sin flourishes, but the godly will live to see their downfall.

Cheetarah, this confirms what you shared in your post above, teaching our children that man's laws are not always in line with God's laws...

*Verse 17:* Discipline your children, and they will give you peace of mind
and will make your heart glad. 

This is where our country is...

*Verse 18: *When people do not accept divine guidance, they run wild. But whoever obeys the law is joyful. 

This is so key here for many hear guidance, yet it is not heeded.
*Verse **19:* Words alone will not discipline a servant; the words may be understood, but they are not heeded.

This one is interesting for it fits many Christians and our government. 

*Verse 24:* If you assist a thief, you only hurt yourself. You are sworn to tell the truth, but you dare not testify.

Many of us dare not challenge the government when it's wrong; yet we *assist them* as they 'steal' our rights to live for God. We've sworn ourselves to uphold God's word, yet we dare not testify againt the world's system, instead we 'accept' it and comply. 

Then these verses followed...

*Verse 25:* Fearing people is a dangerous trap, but trusting the Lord means safety.

*Verse 26:* Many seek the ruler’s favor, but justice comes from the Lord.

And of course it comes to this...

*Verse 27:* The righteous despise the unjust; the wicked despise the godly.

Thanks again, your post brings this to more prayer and the need for us to be alert, mindful and not allow the government to go but so far, for we live in this world just as they do. 

Now it's time to love and heal those who have gone through and affected by abortion. My battle is not with them, but the government who chose the wrong way out for them to get help. 

Happy Thanksgiving to you and your loved ones...


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## Shimmie (Nov 17, 2007)

Nice & Wavy said:


> What will it profit a man (a woman in this case) if he/she gains the whole world and lose his/her soul?
> 
> Some people just need to realize that God is God and there is no skirting around the truth. Say what you must, but in the end...God shall get the Glory in the lives of those who CHOOSE TO DO HIS WILL!


 
Hey Darlin... 

Don't let me get into 'office'..... You think I'm a 'terror' to the devil now...... I see more herds of pigs drowning in the ocean. 

Love you sis...

Wavy...why do you allow me to get loose in threads like this? You 'know' you can't leave me alone for one second.  Maybe two seconds.


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## Poohbear (Nov 18, 2007)

natalied said:


> you didn't even address my other examples of SIN not being punishable by MAN's LAW. Not suprised. Because you cannot reconcile Man's Law with God's law.
> 
> And No, *YOU* disagree with God. You disagree with God's gift of free choice. God never intended for us to live in a sinful world. But yet we are here. Why? Because he gave Adam and Eve and you and I FREE CHOICE. There will be consequences for sin on this earth and at judgement. You cannot exact God's punishment. All you and this government can give is what you deem is a acceptable punishment. What is it? Two years, 5 years in jail, the death penalty? Whatever it is, it is not God's judgement. It is only Man's. This is not equal to God's judgement.
> 
> ...


I agree that God gave us the freedom to choose.  Without choice, Adam would have been a prisoner forced to obey.  The two trees in the Garden of Eden presented an exercise in choice, with rewards for choosing to obey and sad consequences for choosing to disobey.  HOWEVER, when faced with a choice, choose to obey God. Yes, we have all made bad choices and suffer consequences for our sins, but we should always learn and grow and make better choices in the future.

As far as having the government legislate morality... I agree with you too.  I do not want the government to take place of God either.  That's like legalism, which is a distortion of Christianity.  We can't live by a long list of "don'ts."  God's favor is NOT earned by good behavior.  We should recognize that real change brought about by GOD should lead to changes in behavior. God's love is something to accept freely, not something to earn.

By the way, I am a Christian that is PRO-LIFE.  I agree with Shimmie's other posts regarding abortion = killing = sin = against God.  But I do not think we should legislate morality or punish people for their sins... that should be left up to GOD and GOD alone.


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## PaperClip (Nov 18, 2007)

This might not make much sense but I'll say it anyway:

With regard to governmental intervention and "punishment" regarding abortion....

The government kind of does this when a pregnant woman is murdered, e.g., Laci Peterson. I believe Scott Peterson was convicted of TWO MURDERS...the wife/mother and the unborn child....

By definition, abortion means "the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus" (www.m-w.com).

Also included in the above is the point of miscarriage, which, for example, can happen "on purpose" or "by unexplained, or unintentional means"....

According to the Bible: murder is the shedding of INNOCENT blood...that it was done ON PURPOSE....

So...(and I'm thinking out loud here), once the egg and the sperm meet up, that's a zygote(?) and/or an embryo...and that embryo is INNOCENT because it has not committed any harmful acts against another and of course, has no knowledge of evil... by definition, innocent means "free from guilt or sin especially through lack of knowledge of evil"....

I said all that to say that in terms of government intervention with this matter, I would prefer that my tax dollars not go toward abortion issues because I feel like that would mean that I'm supporting abortion indirectly. And of course, there are MANY other things that I may be supporting indirectly that I don't agree with and that goes against my spiritual/religious beliefs.

The question came up about women being punished by law for having an abortion.... Hmmm.... I suppose the government cannot justify punishing a woman for afflicting her own body... and then that might be hypocritical to do because then that might open the door for government to control other things regarding our bodies, e.g., sterilization, immunizations, restriction of certain health care options, etc.

Plus, a woman who goes through an abortion (before, during, and after) probably deals with so much inner turmoil, maybe that's punishment enough.... And so because the Lord is sovereign, merciful, forgiving, He puts ministries on people's hearts, like the OP, to minister to them....

Again, this is just me thinking out loud....


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## MomofThreeBoys (Nov 18, 2007)

cheetarah1980 said:


> I totally get what you're saying. And in a Christian nation God's law would trump man's law any time. The thing is, we cannot use Christian standards to set the laws of this country because there is no state sanctioned religion.
> 
> *We can teach our children that the laws of this land are not always in line with God's laws and commands. And we can teach them that God's law trumps any nation's law any day.*
> 
> The only solution to this problem would be to turn America into a theocratic state and I don't see that happening any time soon.


 
Thank you.  This is what I'm doing with my children.  God's law is above any so called law this country has.


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## Shimmie (Nov 18, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> This might not make much sense but I'll say it anyway:
> 
> With regard to governmental intervention and "punishment" regarding abortion....
> 
> ...


Excellent thoughts RR and you're speaking the truth.

I love and totally agree with what you shared about your tax dollars going towards the support of abortion. And you are so right about our money supporting many other things that we do not comply with. 

I wouldn't wish jail on anyone. But there are some actions that need to recognized as illegal and abortion is definitely one of them.  Many women do not have a care neither a conscious regarding abortion, they just feel it's their 'right' and/or their pro choice; and they get up and walk away without one thought about what they've done.  The ones who 'kill' their babies at 20 weeks...ohhhh, this one makes me so scared.  The baby can hear, and feel EVERYTHING and the baby even cries.  And someone takes an instrument and probes the base of their scull and draws life from them.  These are the ones who need some time in the 'cooler'.  Mericiful Heaven. It's not a game with this.  

You mentioned the Scott / Lacie Peterson case and this man did take two lives on purpose. And that's the point, with abortion, an innocent life is being taken on purpose, so it's not the 'mother's free choice that trumps her baby's right to live; it's not her right to end her baby's life, nor anyone else's right to end this baby's life. 

This baby is a separate life and separate body and separate rights from hers and she has no right to take these rights away from this life growing inside of her. This foolishness about Pro Choice is just that, foolishness. 

Christians are not the only persons who believe this. Jews, Muslims, Indians, Asians, actually all cultures believe that abortion is murder and do not support it, neither do they cover it up with 'free or pro choice' foolishness. They call it what is, a crime. But in every culture and/or faith, there will always be those who falter and go astray. Why? To keep from taking responsibilty for what they know to be wrong.

I've just had it with this foolishness in our government and this country's weak mindset, that's all.

Anyhoo.........

((( Hugs ))) back to you "RR" from your previous post. 

Happy Loving and joyful Thanksgiving to you and your loved ones. 

____________

_I logged in the other day *ONLY* to answer a PM; low and behold this thread pulled me in. I'm supposed to be cleaning my house for this holiday weekend. Oh well..._ 

I wish EVERYONE a very loving and happy Thankgiving holiday. Be safe, be loved and be happy.


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## Poohbear (Nov 20, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> This might not make much sense but I'll say it anyway:
> 
> With regard to governmental intervention and "punishment" regarding abortion....
> 
> ...


Excellent thoughts! Especially the bolded part.  But it's sad when some women do not feel any remorse for getting an abortion...

I do have a question... does our tax dollars really go toward paying for abortions?  How do you all know? I thought the women who get the abortions are the ones paying for it.


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## PaperClip (Nov 20, 2007)

Poohbear said:


> Excellent thoughts! Especially the bolded part. But it's sad when some women do not feel any remorse for getting an abortion...
> 
> I do have a question... does our tax dollars really go toward paying for abortions?  How do you all know? I thought the women who get the abortions are the ones paying for it.


 
I did a quick Google search....

http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/public_funding.html

Medicaid Spending
Medicaid is the largest form of aid to the states from the federal government, comprising 43% of all federal grants.5 As the national economy has worsened, state tax revenue has lessened and health care costs have continued to rise. This resulted in more people eligible for Medicaid.6 This has placed pressure on states to control Medicaid costs, typically the second-largest budget expenditure.7 The federal government is also looking at scaling back Medicaid funding, and the Bush administration has proposed to reduce Medicaid spending by $35 billion over the next ten years. These cuts will especially impact women. 






The Hyde Amendment
After Roe v. Wade decriminalized abortion in 1973, Medicaid covered abortion care without restriction. In 1976, Representative Henry Hyde (R-IL) introduced an amendment that later passed to limit federal funding for abortion care. Effective in 1977, this provision, known as the Hyde Amendment, specifies what abortion services are covered under Medicaid.
Over the past two decades, Congress has debated the limited circumstances under which federal funding for abortion should be allowed. For a brief period of time, coverage included cases of rape, incest, life endangerment, and physical health damage to the woman. However, beginning in 1979, the physical health exception was excluded, and in 1981 rape and incest exceptions were also excluded. 
In September 1993, Congress rewrote the provision to include Medicaid funding for abortions in cases where the pregnancy resulted from rape or incest. The present version of the Hyde Amendment requires coverage of abortion in cases of rape, incest, and life endangerment.





Challenges to Hyde
The first challenges to the Hyde Amendment came shortly after its implementation. The Supreme Court has held that the Hyde Amendment restrictions are constitutional8 and that states participating in Medicaid are only required to cover abortion services for which they receive federal funding rather than all medically necessary abortions.9 Challenges under state constitutions have been more successful. Several lawsuits have been brought in individual states arguing that state constitutions afford greater protection for privacy and equal protection than the federal Constitution.10






Implementation of the Hyde Amendment 
The Hyde Amendment affects only federal spending. States are free to use their own funds to cover additional abortion services. For example, Hawaii, New York, and Washington have enacted laws funding abortions for health reasons. Other states, such as Maryland, cover abortions for women whose pregnancies are affected by fetal abnormalities or present serious health risks. These expansions are important steps toward ensuring equal access to health care for all women. 
Prior to the 1993 expansion of the Hyde Amendment, thirty states chose not to use their own Medicaid funds to cover abortions for pregnancies resulting from rape or incest.11 Initially, a number of states expressed resistance to comply with the expanded Hyde Amendment, and presently thirteen states are under court orders to comply and cover rape and incest in addition to life endangerment.12 Every court that has considered the Hyde Amendment's application to a state's Medicaid program since 1993 has held that states continuing to participate in the Medicaid program must cover abortions resulting from rape or incest in order to be compliant with the Hyde Amendment, regardless of state laws that may be more restrictive.




State Funding for Abortion under Medicaid​ *Funding under Hyde Amendment Only:* Alabama, Arkansas, Colorado, Delaware, District of Columbia, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Michigan, Missouri, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Vermont, and Wyoming.

*Hyde Amendment and Additional Health Circumstances:* Indiana (physical health), Iowa (fetal abnormality), Mississippi (fetal abnormality), Utah (physical health and fetal abnormality), Virginia (fetal abnormality), and Wisconsin (physical health).
All or Most Health Circumstances: Alaska, Arizona, California, Connecticut, Hawaii, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Montana, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Vermont, Washington, and West Virginia.

*Noncompliant with the Hyde Amendment:* South Dakota (life endangerment only).


I'd like to say here that the abortion issue is so complex, sensitive. I believe that (most) women who decide to have an abortion are going through serious turmoil about it. I think that when a woman is desperate enough to abort, that they will go to any means to do so, even risking her life. Public funding abortions would seem to be a way for women to reduce her risk because it is done as a formal medical procedure versus a horrible back-alley clothes hanger situation. I don't want to see a woman risk her life (or the baby's life) like that. 

I hope a Solomon-type solution emerges quickly....


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## Shimmie (Nov 20, 2007)

Poohbear said:


> Excellent thoughts! Especially the bolded part. But it's sad when some women do not feel any remorse for getting an abortion...
> 
> I do have a question... does our tax dollars really go toward paying for abortions?  How do you all know? I thought the women who get the abortions are the ones paying for it.


Hi Poohbear   Happy Thanksgiving to you and your loved ones...

As for our tax dollars, we pay for abortions in several ways...

*  There are many women on medical assistance and the abortion rate is very high among this population of women.  Our tax money pays for medical assistance.

*  We pay the salaries for those who legislate abortion rights.  Our tax dollars pay their salaries.

*  The government pays for many of the abortion clinics and supplies.  Our tax dollars go towards these expenses.

*  A lot of scientific research is done with aborted fetuses (this makes me cry; it just scares me).   Our government uses our tax dollars for these experiments as well.

Did you know that the collagen from aborted fetuses was (and may still be) used in many cosmetics?  I have to research what I use more carefully that whatever collagen products I use has either vegetable or animal collagen.  It's a challenge for it's not often noted on all products.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collagen

_"Recently an alternative to animal-derived collagen has become available. Although expensive, this human collagen, derived from donor cadavers, __placentas__ and *aborted fetuses*,[5] may minimize the possibility of immune reactions."_

_*Warning, this site below is very hard to read...Yet we pay for this with our tax dollars... .  *_

http://www.ourchurch.com/view/?pageID=214839

There are other resources that confirm this use of aborted fetuses, but I don't want post them.   It's just too sad to read these reports.  While we need to be informed, it's not easy to read emotionally and I don't want to upset anyone any further with saddness.   

This was never my intent in this thread to shed guilt, judgement, or condemnation towards anyone.  And I am so sorry for those who are offended and/or hurt.   It's just that Abortion goes further than we realize and this is just why I feel so strongly against 'legalized' abortion.

We just can't pass this off as 'free choice' or 'pro choice', for it says, we are looking the 'other way'.  It's not about legislating morality; morality is non-existant with this.  It's heinous, a legalized heinous crime.  

God bless you everyone...I really mean it with all of my heart.  I really do.


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## Shimmie (Nov 20, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> I did a quick Google search....
> 
> http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/public_funding.html
> 
> ...


This is excellent RR,   You are sharing facts while although I'm sharing facts, mine are mixed with emotion.   I'm so glad you're here to bring in the much needed balance.  

I hope you understand what I mean by this.  What I'm trying to say is that I appreciate your level headed take on this.  I'm coming from a 'mommie' perspective.  You've coming in with ways for others to judge for themselves.   Excellent format... 

((( hugs )))


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## Te'TahHead (Nov 20, 2007)

natalied said:


> you didn't even address my other examples of SIN not being punishable by MAN's LAW.  Not suprised.  *Because you cannot reconcile Man's Law with God's law*.
> 
> And No, *YOU* disagree with God.  You disagree with God's gift of free choice.   *God never intended for us to live in a sinful world.  But yet we are here. Why?  Because he gave Adam and Eve and you and I FREE CHOICE. There will be consequences for sin on this earth and at judgement.    You cannot exact God's punishment.  All you and this government can give is what you deem is a acceptable punishment.  What is it?  Two years, 5 years in jail, the death penalty?  Whatever it is, it is not God's judgement.  It is only Man's.  This is not equal to God's judgement.*
> 
> ...



Amen sistah, Amen!!!


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## divya (Nov 21, 2007)

Shimmie said:


> I agree with your post and I want to tell you that it is also beautifully written.
> 
> Hear me when I say, that people do have a right to choose. And we are to live by example.
> 
> ...



I agree with much about what you have said and understand your points. So of course, you are not offending me. I respect your conviction. 

The freedom of choice issue is the main point at which we differ. I believe  everything has to do with freedom of choice - that it always has and always will.  From the fall of Lucifer from heaven, choosing to attempt to exalt himself as high as Christ - where God allowed him to make the choice - to our opportunity to choose to live for Christ or not. As Christians, we do have a standard by which we should live.  However, we cannot impose that upon others or even those of us who choose to carry the title “Christian” but do otherwise. It’s true that people do not want to be responsible for their actions these days and it is both disgusting as sad.  But it is not God’s intention for His creations to be forced to follow him. Again, He wants us to choose to live right because we love Him.

The law allow the right to choose is not overriding our free choice, because we are not forced to have abortions. When it comes to our children, the Bible instructs us to train our children in the way that they should live. It is our responsibility to make sure that our children are equipped with the spiritual knowledge and understanding so that they make the right decisions in their lives, regardless of what the rest of the world may believe.  We must remember that the Holy Spirit will give them discernment.

Further, this issue and others involve extremely important issue of religious freedom. If abortion is restricted because a number of people believe that the woman should not have the choice based on their own religious beliefs, regardless of the fact that many others disagree (including certain Christian denominations), then the government has crossed the line and is upholding the religious beliefs of some over others. How far can this go? Then the government may then believe it has the authority to determine whether homosexual relationships are wrong or not and rule on that, another largely religious issue.  What’s next? Telling us what other religious doctrines we should or shouldn’t teach or preach? We may believe that abortion is wrong however, we simply should not allow the law to determine what is right or wrong for us. Allowing the government to make these choices for people - abortion, homosexuality etc - blurs the line between church and state.  The Bible itself maintains that this separation should stand.

I agree with you that sin doesn't win but that is the truth regardless of the laws. People still have choice to commit a crime, just as though a woman still should have a choice of whether or not to commit an abortion. But "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord." People get away with all kinds of things here on earth, but God is the final judge. Personally, I rest assured that God is in control.  

Happy Thanksgiving!


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## divya (Nov 21, 2007)

Shimmie said:


> This baby is a separate life and separate body and separate rights from hers and she has no right to take these rights away from this life growing inside of her. This foolishness about Pro Choice is just that, foolishness.
> 
> Christians are not the only persons who believe this. Jews, Muslims, Indians, Asians, actually all cultures believe that abortion is murder and do not support it, neither do they cover it up with 'free or pro choice' foolishness. They call it what is, a crime. But in every culture and/or faith, there will always be those who falter and go astray. Why? To keep from taking responsibilty for what they know to be wrong.
> 
> ...



I have to address certain statements in your post. There are Christians who are pro-choice and who are pro-life. Please do not speak for all of Christianity. The same goes for Judaism.  Which Indians are you referring to? Not all Indians are part of the same religion.  Asians are a broad group, that is made up of many cultures and religious persuasions. Your statement is not true in regards to either of these groups. 

You may believe that those who are pro-choice are those who have gone astray but I contend that those who are anti-choice are missing the bigger picture. It is judgmental and false to assume that people who are pro-choice are such to keep from taking responsibility for what is wrong  This is an issue of letting people choose right or wrong for themselves. 

Let me ask you, what exactly does someone like me need to take responsibility for? I've never had an abortion and am against getting one. Has everyone who is pro-choice had an abortion? Absolutely not. There are many of us who are pro-life personally but support choice for others.  Why is it that many of those who are against choice refuse to acknowledge this fact and continue to pass judgment on others and make sweeping assumptions regarding those who believe differently on this issue of choice?  

I believe in this verse in its entirety:
And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose *for yourselves* this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. *But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.* Joshua 24:15


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## PaperClip (Nov 21, 2007)

divya said:


> I have to address certain statements in your post. There are Christians who are pro-choice and who are pro-life. Please do not speak for all of Christianity. The same goes for Judaism. Which Indians are you referring to? Not all Indians are part of the same religion. Asians are a broad group, that is made up of many cultures and religious persuasions. Your statement is not true in regards to either of these groups.
> 
> You may believe that those who are pro-choice are those who have gone astray but I contend that those who are anti-choice are missing the bigger picture. It is judgmental and false to assume that people who are pro-choice are such to keep from taking responsibility for what is wrong This is an issue of letting people choose right or wrong for themselves.
> 
> ...


 
You said: "There are many of us who are pro-life personally but support choice for others".... I had to roll this sentence around my brain....

Would you agree that that sentence can apply to ANYTHING in life... from gun control to schooling to smoking to using chemicals on your hair to plastic surgery to so on and so on and so on?

Example: I don't smoke, but does "pro-choice" mean that you "don't mind" if somebody else smokes? 

I don't relax my hair anymore, but doesn "pro-choice" mean that you "don't mind" if somebody else relaxes their hair?

I prefer not to have guns in my house, but does "pro-choice" mean that you "don't mind" if your next door neighbor is a gun owner and lifetime member of the NRA?

Here's my point: the issue of abortion, broadly defined as the INTENDED termination of a pregnancy, goes against everything that the Bible says about the protection, sanctity, and value of HUMAN LIFE. This might be harsh and extreme, but would you be pro-choice for the shedding of innocent blood OUTSIDE of the WOMB versus INSIDE of the WOMB?

The other piece to the pro-choice conversation for Bible-believing Christians (and I make this clarification based on your statement here: "Please do not speak for all of Christianity." The Bible is THE FOUNDATIONAL, FUNDAMENTAL GUIDEBOOK for ALL Christians, I thought.) Christians may not completely align with how some scriptures are interpreted, but hopefully we agree that the Bible is the first and final answer on what the Lord would say on a particular topic.

...the other piece to the pro-choice conversations for Bible-believing Christians is our scriptural mandate to HELP one another, gently guide one another as you see a fellow Christian heading toward a FAULT:

Proverbs 27:17 "17 You use steel to sharpen steel, and one friend sharpens another. (The Message)

I know there are other scriptures that speak to how fellow Christians are to help one another when we see one heading down a wrong path...or at least that Christian...that BIBLE-BELIEVING Christian should be able to point DIRECTLY to scripture that supports the pro-choice concept...and that absolves the Christian from being accountable to one another....

I am not advocating force or mind control, either. So as the Christian admonishes another in a sober, scripturally accurate conversation and that person CHOOSES to continue in their particular way of thinking and action, well at least that believer will be able to stand before the Lord and say "Lord, I did everything I could to persuade this person of what the scriptures say on this topic...."


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## Farida (Nov 21, 2007)

The problem with the abortion debate is not about whether a woman should choose or not (if it were we wouldn't be debating it), it is about the gravity of the decision.

If you classify abortion as murder, then you will view abortion as = murder and it is impossible to reconcile its legality with the freedom to choose. For those who believe abortion is murder it is tantamount to telling them that since some people believe that is okay to kill people you don't like but you don't, we can't force legislation upon them on this issue. It doesn't reconcile!

That's what makes abortion such a complicated debate. Some see it as murder and some don't. Some see it as a mere moral issue like infidelity while others see it as a criminal matter. Those who do see it as murder could never allow it on the grounds that it is letting the government fund and allow murder.

I do think churches should have support groups for pregnant, divorced and women who've had abortions. They suffer such a stigma regardless of the nature if their heart and relationship with God. They are in so much pain and many don't know where to take these emotions.


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## Cichelle (Nov 21, 2007)

I am addressing this since Jews were mentioned as having a particular viewpoint on the status of the fetus. I am correcting something that was said which is wrong.

It is not true that Judaism, in general, considers a fetus a separate life with a separate  body and separate rights. The ancient rabbis who wrote about it and based their conclusions on Torah, refute that. 

_In general_, Judaism does not make a blanket statement about abortion, but considers many things particular to the case, in order to come up with the right course of action. As for being "pro-choice",  the majority of Jews are against governmental regulation of abortion. Some branches of Judaism (in fact, most of them) have gone on record about this matter. They view it as a woman's private matter and encourage consultation with certain people in her life, which may include her husband, doctor and rabbi. 

If anyone is interested in reading information on what Judaism thinks about the status of the fetus and the varied opinions of abortion, please send me a private message.

If the mods feel this post should be removed, I understand.

Gd bless.


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## divya (Nov 21, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> You said: "There are many of us who are pro-life personally but support choice for others".... I had to roll this sentence around my brain....
> 
> Would you agree that that sentence can apply to ANYTHING in life... from gun control to schooling to smoking to using chemicals on your hair to plastic surgery to so on and so on and so on?
> 
> ...



Yes, it applies to anything in life - including abortion. I have already pointed to the scripture than supports pro-choice. If nothing else, Jesus life on earth exemplifies this. Please also do read my previous posts where I have stated that as Christians we ought to tell people that abortion is wrong, and encourage them to do right. However, the Bible says that choice belongs to the individual.

For example, it's just like when so many Christians claim that the Bible allows people to eat whatever they want, when it certainly does not. Many Christians are literally KILLING themselves and their children.  We ought to encourage them to take a right path, but in the end, the choice is theirs.


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## divya (Nov 21, 2007)

vivmaiko said:


> The problem with the abortion debate is not about whether a woman should choose or not (if it were we wouldn't be debating it), it is about the gravity of the decision.
> 
> If you classify abortion as murder, then you will view abortion as = murder and it is impossible to reconcile its legality with the freedom to choose. For those who believe abortion is murder it is tantamount to telling them that since some people believe that is okay to kill people you don't like but you don't, we can't force legislation upon them on this issue. It doesn't reconcile!
> 
> ...



That's not true either. There are those of us who see it as taking the life of a child. However, at that particular point, the mother has autonomy over child so still the choice belongs to her.  Is it wrong to have an abortion? Yes.  However, it is still her choice.

The government already does fund and allow murder, outside of abortion.  I do not agree with it and speak about it, but the ultimate choice belongs to those individuals who lead this nation and those who choice to take part in murderous activities. I do wonder how many anti-choice people are also anti-war...


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## divya (Nov 21, 2007)

Cichelle said:


> I am addressing this since Jews were mentioned as having a particular viewpoint on the status of the fetus. I am correcting something that was said which is wrong.
> 
> It is not true that Judaism, in general, considers a fetus a separate life with a separate  body and separate rights. The ancient rabbis who wrote about it and based their conclusions on Torah, refute that.
> 
> ...




Thank you. The same is true for the majority of Seventh-Day Adventists. 

I am here reading up on http://www.jewsonfirst.org/.  There is an area here about separation of church and state and there are numerous articles on abortion as well.


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## MomofThreeBoys (Nov 21, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> You said: "There are many of us who are pro-life personally but support choice for others".... I had to roll this sentence around my brain....
> 
> Would you agree that that sentence can apply to ANYTHING in life... from gun control to schooling to smoking to using chemicals on your hair to plastic surgery to so on and so on and so on?
> 
> ...


 
Yes, we should help one another.  That doesn't mean I forcibly stop you from commiting sin.  As Christians, we should call out sin.  Abortion is sin.  Therefore we should counsel everyone who is the valley on indecision, to not murder.  The question is should we empower government to prevent sin and to punish sin.

The ultimate life or death decision is chosing or not choosing Christ.  Without Him, there is death.  Christ could have used Ceasar to usher in His kingdom.  He had the power to make Cesar change laws that would have forced people to convert to Christianity.  But He didn't. 

That why is so important for us to follow the great commission.  Matthew 28: 16-20.  The best way to prevent abortion is not enacting laws.   The best way is to have a missionary zeal and "teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you".  Christ did not say forcing them to obey.  We are to teach.

Christ is our ultimate example.


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## PaperClip (Nov 21, 2007)

divya said:


> Yes, it applies to anything in life - including abortion. I have already pointed to the scripture than supports pro-choice. If nothing else, Jesus life on earth exemplifies this. Please also do read my previous posts where I have stated that as Christians we ought to tell people that abortion is wrong, and encourage them to do right. However, the Bible says that choice belongs to the individual.
> 
> For example, it's just like when so many Christians claim that the Bible allows people to eat whatever they want, when it certainly does not. Many Christians are literally KILLING themselves and their children. We ought to encourage them to take a right path, but in the end, the choice is theirs.


 
Yes, I have located and read the scripture you posted (Joshua 24:15). It seems like an "out" to justify pro-choice in that we can "cherry-pick" those principles that align with our earthly beliefs. I submit to you that the Lord seeks biblical consistency among us even in our support for various social causes. This scripture came to mind:

1 Corinthians 5:1-7:
1 It is actually reported that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not even among the Gentiles, that one of you hath his father's wife. 


2 And ye are puffed up, and did not rather mourn, that he that had done this deed might be taken away from among you. 

3 For I verily, being absent in body but present in spirit, have already as though I were present judged him that hath so wrought this thing, 

4 in the name of our Lord Jesus, ye being gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 

5 to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 

6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 

7 Purge out the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, even as ye are unleavened. For our passover also hath been sacrificed, even Christ:  
8 wherefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.


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## PaperClip (Nov 21, 2007)

natalied said:


> Yes, we should help one another. *That* *doesn't mean I forcibly stop you from commiting sin.* As Christians, we should call out sin. Abortion is sin. Therefore we should counsel everyone who is the valley on indecision, to not murder. The question is should we empower government to prevent sin and to punish sin.
> 
> The ultimate life or death decision is chosing or not choosing Christ. Without Him, there is death. Christ could have used Ceasar to usher in His kingdom. He had the power to make Cesar change laws that would have forced people to convert to Christianity. But He didn't.
> 
> ...


 
Well, how far are we willing to go to help our fellow brother from committing a harm/offense against myself or someone else?

I recall a situation where I was about to BEAT DOWN this sister at this church for talking about my cousin. And I was prepared to BEAT HER DOWN IN THE CHURCH....

But my cousins FORCIBLY grabbed me and walked me out of the church and threw me in the car and sat on me until I calmed down....

Now in the eyes of the earthly law, maybe I could have made a case of assault against my cousins. But spiritually, they stepped up according to Matthew 18:15-17:

"If a fellow believer hurts you, go and tell him—work it out between the two of you. If he listens, you've made a friend. If he won't listen, take one or two others along so that the presence of witnesses will keep things honest, and try again. If he still won't listen, tell the church. If he won't listen to the church, you'll have to start over from scratch, confront him with the need for repentance, and offer again God's forgiving love.

So in this passage, there are THREE interventions to help the fellow believer avoid/prevent sin from occurring (or continuing to occur). And it might be said that the scripture says "if a fellow believer HURTS YOU". I submit to you that when one of us sins, it hurts the entire BODY. The believers come together as ONE BODY IN CHRIST.

Somebody please help me with the scripture that says then when one of us hurts, we all hurt and when one of us is victorious, we are all victorious.


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## divya (Nov 21, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Yes, I have located and read the scripture you posted (Joshua 24:15). It seems like an "out" to justify pro-choice in that we can "cherry-pick" those principles that align with our earthly beliefs. I submit to you that the Lord seeks biblical consistency among us even in our support for various social causes. This scripture came to mind:
> 
> 1 Corinthians 5:1-7:
> 1 It is actually reported that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not even among the Gentiles, that one of you hath his father's wife.
> ...



I'm sorry but I really do not see your point... 

The Lord gives all people the choice to live for Him or choose a sinful lifestyle.  How is it a "cherry pick" when it refers to life in general? Just because we may have certain stance on a particular issue, does not give us the right to force our beliefs on anyone else. That is against God's character. The entire reason why Jesus died for our sins was because He would not force us to follow Him. We are called to live a life that is holy and acceptable to the Lord. In the verses that you have posted, the Bible here is instructing us in the way we ought to live yet the choice belongs to each individual. God will deal with those who choose otherwise.


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## divya (Nov 21, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Well, how far are we willing to go to help our fellow brother from committing a harm/offense against myself or someone else?
> 
> I recall a situation where I was about to BEAT DOWN this sister at this church for talking about my cousin. And I was prepared to BEAT HER DOWN IN THE CHURCH....
> 
> ...



Nothing in those verses condones forcing others do conform to our religious beliefs.


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## PaperClip (Nov 21, 2007)

divya said:


> Nothing in those verses condones forcing others do conform to our religious beliefs.


 
It does amongst BELIEVERS.... One Lord, one faith, one baptism. (Ephesians 4:5). My previous posts clarify that I am speaking of BELIEVERS who claim and declare their salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ.


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## divya (Nov 21, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> It does amongst BELIEVERS.... One Lord, one faith, one baptism. (Ephesians 4:5). My previous posts clarify that I am speaking of BELIEVERS who claim and declare their salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ.



I disagree. The Bible does not state that believers should force each other to adhere to their personal convictions. If that was the case, then Catholics in the past would not have been wrong in their massacre of Protestants who diverged from Catholicism. Did Jesus Christ forces fellow Jews to believe on Him? The Bible gives a proper way to deal with difficulties among members in the church, nothing more. Further, the abortion issue is one that encompasses more than Christians.  

It is important to understand Ephesians 4:5 in the context of the verses around it. 

Ephesians 4:1-6


> I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, *beseech* you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you[a] all.


 
The Bible uses the word _beseech_ here. Beseech means to  "to beg for urgently or anxiously;  to request earnestly; to implore." That means that we are being counseled to walk upright, not forced.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/beseech


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## MomofThreeBoys (Nov 21, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Well, how far are we willing to go to help our fellow brother from committing a harm/offense against myself or someone else?
> 
> I recall a situation where I was about to BEAT DOWN this sister at this church for talking about my cousin. And I was prepared to BEAT HER DOWN IN THE CHURCH....
> 
> ...


 
I agree.  We all hurt but the final decision still lies with the offender.   Also, I don't consider the government part of the body of Christ and therefore is not authorized to counsel or dole out punishment on OUR matters.  If someone was considering an abortion, I would take it to the pastor and fellow believers NOT the government.  Same for adultery, fornication, etc.  

In that case, do you feel you, as a Christian, should kidnap a woman who is pregnant and hold her hostage until she is able to deliver to prevent an abortion?   Do you think God would condone this?  

Abortion is wrong. Yes we can agree its murder.  But should we physically prevent someone from having one?  Maybe.  But for me, it doesn't involve George Bush, Sonny Purdue, Clarence Thomas, or Shirley Franklin.  I think there are times we are to intervene and then their are others where we are to pray.  That's why we must pray for spiritual discernment.

Laws of this land should only be enacted for the country to function in a proper and orderly manner.  Anything else, it needs to stay out of OUR business.


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## chickory_bee (Nov 21, 2007)

My friend took this pic, and I love it!!


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## divya (Nov 21, 2007)

chickory_bee said:


> My friend took this pic, and I love it!!



 

But how she going to write on her belly??


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## AfroKink (Nov 21, 2007)

Does the Bible say that human life begins at conception? 

My jury is still kinda out on the pro-life/choice stance.  I'm pro-choice in that a woman should have the right to choose, even if abortion is considered a sin.  I have the right to choose to fornicate, lie, steal, and a whole slew of other sins.  But I'm also pro-life in that a human should have the right to not be killed by another human.  My difficulty is where human life actually begins.  Do two cells, an egg and a sperm, conjoined make a human? does an embryo 1 month post fertilization that cannot life outside of the womb make a human? does a fetus at 6 months post fertilization that could survive out of the womb a human? or does human life begin after delivery?

what's the biblical stance?

Lys


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## PaperClip (Nov 21, 2007)

divya said:


> I disagree. The Bible does not state that believers should force each other to adhere to their personal convictions. If that was the case, then Catholics in the past would not have been wrong in their massacre of Protestants who diverged from Catholicism. Did Jesus Christ forces fellow Jews to believe on Him? The Bible gives a proper way to deal with difficulties among members in the church, nothing more. Further, the abortion issue is one that encompasses more than Christians.
> 
> It is important to understand Ephesians 4:5 in the context of the verses around it.
> 
> ...


 
The sanctity of life (in or out of the womb) is not a personal conviction for the Bible-believing Christian. It is a biblical mandate. Exodus 20:13: Thou shalt not kill. Kill being defined as the shedding of INNOCENT BLOOD.


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## PaperClip (Nov 21, 2007)

natalied said:


> I agree. We all hurt but the final decision still lies with the offender. Also, I don't consider the government part of the body of Christ and therefore is not authorized to counsel or dole out punishment on OUR matters. If someone was considering an abortion, I would take it to the pastor and fellow believers NOT the government. Same for adultery, fornication, etc.
> 
> *In that case, do you feel you, as a Christian, should kidnap a woman who is pregnant and hold her hostage until she is able to deliver to prevent an abortion? Do you think God would condone this? *
> 
> ...


 
Not just "a" woman, but possibly a woman who I knew personally and knew that was a believer and who was sincerely struggling with the matter, I would try to talk to the person IN LOVE as much as I could and hopefully persuade her to keep the baby.

I see that the governmental piece keeps coming up in your posts and I did speak to that in an earlier post. I suppose the crux of my posts deal with the seeming CONTRADICTION of a person who declares oneself as a believer but also supports the women's right to choose, which is a "loose" link to supporting abortion, both in principle, deed, and possibly tax dollars.

As ONE BODY of CHRIST, there should be some fundamental things that ALL BELIEVERS should agree upon, and that is the sanctity of life, both in and out of the womb.

Maybe I'm being unrealistic that agreement is achievable amongst the entire Body of Christ.


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## PaperClip (Nov 21, 2007)

MissAlyssa said:


> Does the Bible say that human life begins at conception?
> 
> My jury is still kinda out on the pro-life/choice stance. I'm pro-choice in that a woman should have the right to choose, even if abortion is considered a sin. I have the right to choose to fornicate, lie, steal, and a whole slew of other sins. But I'm also pro-life in that a human should have the right to not be killed by another human. My difficulty is where human life actually begins. Do two cells, an egg and a sperm, conjoined make a human? does an embryo 1 month post fertilization that cannot life outside of the womb make a human? does a fetus at 6 months post fertilization that could survive out of the womb a human? or does human life begin after delivery?
> 
> ...


I did a Google search "bible+life+begins" and got a number of hits.... In addition to the following links, there were other (opposing) perspectives as well.

Here's one response to your question:

http://www.gotquestions.org/life-begin-conception.html

*Does the Bible teach that life begins at conception?*


*Question: "Does the Bible teach that life begins at conception?"

Answer: *Every culture's view of when human life begins changes as society's values, moral standards, and knowledge about the process of embryonic development change. Prior to the 1973 court decision that allowed abortion on demand, developing embryos were considered unborn persons. Now, even a fetus that could survive on its own outside its mother's womb could be aborted, under certain medical circumstances. This demonstrates that we do not consider an unborn child to be a true human being.

Science tell us that human life begins at the time of conception. From the moment fertilization takes place, the child's genetic makeup is already complete. Its gender has already been determined, along with its height and hair, eye and skin color. The only thing the embryo needs to become a fully-functioning being is the time to grow and develop.

More importantly, God reveals to us in His Word that not only does life begin at conception, but He knows who we are even before then (Jeremiah 1:5). King David said this about God's role in our conception: "For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother's womb....Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them" (Psalm 139:13, 16).

Society continually seeks to devalue the lives of the unborn, creating its own definitions of humanity based on distorted views of morality. But the undeniable fact is that life begins at creation, and a human is created as soon as it is conceived. God is present at our creation; He is, in fact, our Creator. Our value as human beings created in His image are conceived even before we are.

*Recommended Resource: *The Cost of Choice: Women Evaluate the Impact of Abortion by Erika Bachiochi, Editor.


Here are some other scriptures:


*References*


"Did not He who made me in the womb make him, And the same one fashion us in the womb? (_Job 31:15_)​
Yet Thou art He who didst bring me forth from the womb; Thou didst make me trust when upon my mother's breasts. Upon Thee I was cast from birth; Thou hast been my God from my mother's womb. (_Psalms 22:9-10_)​
For Thou didst form my inward parts; Thou didst weave me in my mother's womb. I will give thanks to Thee, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Thy works, And my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from Thee, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth. Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Thy book they were all written, The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them. (_Psalms 139:13-16_)​
Thus says the LORD who made you And formed you from the womb, who will help you, `Do not fear, O Jacob My servant; And you Jeshurun whom I have chosen. (Isaiah 44:2) Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, And spreading out the earth all alone, (_Isaiah 44:24_)​


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## winterinatl (Nov 21, 2007)

Interesting thread...I thought OP's original inquiry was sweet and kind hearted.  

However, I'd like to point out that such a ministry would probably be most helpful to women who had an abortion while believing it was wrong, no matter why they thought it was wrong.  These are the women that will report feeling guilty and bad afterward...IMO.  I would expect that many church going Christians would be less likely to get the abortion in the first place, but those are the ones that would hear about the services.

I guess what I am saying is do you think you will have any people to participate?


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## MomofThreeBoys (Nov 21, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Not just "a" woman, but possibly a woman who I knew personally and knew that was a believer and who was sincerely struggling with the matter, I would try to talk to the person IN LOVE as much as I could and hopefully persuade her to keep the baby.
> 
> I see that the governmental piece keeps coming up in your posts and I did speak to that in an earlier post. I suppose the crux of my posts deal with the seeming CONTRADICTION of a person who declares oneself as a believer *but also supports the women's right to choose, which is a "loose" link to supporting abortion, both in principle, deed, and possibly tax dollars.*
> 
> ...


 
I support the right for people to choose to reject Christ. I believe in religious freedom. Does this mean I support rejecting Christ?

ETA: No, I don't support the use of tax dollars for anything that is anti-Christian. I have my kids in private school for this very purpose, I don't like the "agenda" that is pushed in public schools. I don't want my kids learning what is acceptable morally from the government. I think the government pushes their version of morality to much. This is why I'm staunchly against them even enforcing laws that support my Christian beliefs.  And no, I don't see where you address government enforcement of Christian beliefs.


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## PaperClip (Nov 21, 2007)

natalied said:


> I support the right for people to choose to reject Christ. I believe in religious freedom. Does this mean I support rejecting Christ?


 
Religious freedom is a governmental term and I have stated that my boundaries for this discussion are beyond governmental and more toward the religious/spiritual components. But I'll indulge....

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/irf/
U.S. Department of State
Given the U.S. commitment to religious freedom, and to the international covenants that guarantee it as the inalienable right of every human being, the United States seeks to:

Promote freedom of religion and conscience throughout the world as a fundamental human right and as a source of stability for all countries;

Assist newly formed democracies in implementing freedom of religion and conscience;

Assist religious and human rights NGOs in promoting religious freedom;

Identify and denounce regimes that are severe persecutors of their citizens or others on the basis of religious belief.
Actually, it's kind of humorous.... the foundation of the U.S. government was that of Judeo-Christian values.... So, at least historically, it could be argued that any religion (and subsequent values) other than Christianity were rejectionable....

I certainly advocate the FREEDOM OF RELIGION because governmentally, that allows many religious faiths to practice...and hopefully, the one you practice aligns with those in power. Maybe I'm digressing on that tangent....

So back to your question, are you INDIRECTLY rejecting Christ through your support of religious freedom? Under the wording of your question? Yes. If you had said that you support the freedom of religion (as outlined in the Bill of Rights(?), I believe) and paused there, I may have been able to answer with a stronger affirmative.


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## MomofThreeBoys (Nov 21, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Religious freedom is a governmental term and I have stated that my boundaries for this discussion are beyond governmental and more toward the religious/spiritual components. But I'll indulge....
> 
> http://www.state.gov/g/drl/irf/
> U.S. Department of State
> ...


 
I was clear.  I said I support people's right to reject Christ.  This is my context for religious freedom.  I would never force someone to accept Christ.  They must come willingly.  Christians have tried to do this in the past.  It doesn't work.


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## PaperClip (Nov 21, 2007)

divya said:


> I'm sorry but I really do not see your point...
> 
> The Lord gives all people the choice to live for Him or choose a sinful lifestyle. How is it a "cherry pick" when it refers to life in general? Just because we may have certain stance on a particular issue, does not give us the right to force our beliefs on anyone else. That is against God's character. The entire reason why Jesus died for our sins was because He would not force us to follow Him. We are called to live a life that is holy and acceptable to the Lord. In the verses that you have posted, the Bible here is instructing us in the way we ought to live yet the choice belongs to each individual. God will deal with those who choose otherwise.


 
I kindly refer you to my "thinking out loud" post (Post #56).


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## star (Nov 21, 2007)

I have no questions but only answers as it relates to the Bible,a Christian's manual for living. Abortion is murder.


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## PaperClip (Nov 21, 2007)

natalied said:


> I was clear. I said I support people's right to reject Christ. This is my context for religious freedom. I would never force someone to accept Christ. They must come willingly. Christians have tried to do this in the past. It doesn't work.


 
So now we're back to the issue of force....I have spoken to that particular aspect of this topic as well. Force of belief versus force of principle versus force of action.... In the context of the abortion question from a biblical standpoint was where I was speaking from.... But I'll yet again indulge:

How exactly would one be FORCED to accept Christ? Put a gun to their head and have them quote Romans 10:9? Or are we talking about a more manipulative, seductive approach? Or are we talking about a person in a desperate situation (say the final moments before the enactment of a death penalty?)

Out of FREE WILL, a person comes to Christ, and those of us already in the Body have RESPONSIBILITY before, during, and after to 1) win people over to the Lord through our conversation (lifestyle) and 2) to teach them the Word so that they must also go and win others, and 3) when they(we) are wrong, we are accountable to one another to help one another get BACK on the right path.

The notion of "rejecting" Christ should never be supported, in my HUMBLE, FEEBLE opinion. Christ didn't reject anybody. He presented everybody with the opportunity to come to Him. Hmmm.... I'm thinking of the woman at the well.... She basically (tried to) reject Him, but He kept talking to her in that suave, anointed way... and He won her over.... (John 4).
*The Woman at the Well*


7-8A woman, a Samaritan, came to draw water. Jesus said, "Would you give me a drink of water?" (His disciples had gone to the village to buy food for lunch.) 

 9The Samaritan woman, taken aback, asked, "How come you, a Jew, are asking me, a Samaritan woman, for a drink?" (Jews in those days wouldn't be caught dead talking to Samaritans.) 

 10Jesus answered, "If you knew the generosity of God and who I am, you would be asking me for a drink, and I would give you fresh, living water." 

 11-12The woman said, "Sir, you don't even have a bucket to draw with, and this well is deep. So how are you going to get this 'living water'? Are you a better man than our ancestor Jacob, who dug this well and drank from it, he and his sons and livestock, and passed it down to us?" 

 13-14Jesus said, "Everyone who drinks this water will get thirsty again and again. Anyone who drinks the water I give will never thirst—not ever. The water I give will be an artesian spring within, gushing fountains of endless life." 

 15The woman said, "Sir, give me this water so I won't ever get thirsty, won't ever have to come back to this well again!" 

 16He said, "Go call your husband and then come back." 

 17-18"I have no husband," she said. "That's nicely put: 'I have no husband.' You've had five husbands, and the man you're living with now isn't even your husband. You spoke the truth there, sure enough." 

 19-20"Oh, so you're a prophet! Well, tell me this: Our ancestors worshiped God at this mountain, but you Jews insist that Jerusalem is the only place for worship, right?" 

 21-23"Believe me, woman, the time is coming when you Samaritans will worship the Father neither here at this mountain nor there in Jerusalem. You worship guessing in the dark; we Jews worship in the clear light of day. God's way of salvation is made available through the Jews. But the time is coming—it has, in fact, come—when what you're called will not matter and where you go to worship will not matter. 

 23-24"It's who you are and the way you live that count before God. Your worship must engage your spirit in the pursuit of truth. That's the kind of people the Father is out looking for: those who are simply and honestly themselves before him in their worship. God is sheer being itself—Spirit. Those who worship him must do it out of their very being, their spirits, their true selves, in adoration." 

 25The woman said, "I don't know about that. I do know that the Messiah is coming. When he arrives, we'll get the whole story." 

 26"I am he," said Jesus. "You don't have to wait any longer or look any further." 

 27Just then his disciples came back. They were shocked. They couldn't believe he was talking with that kind of a woman. No one said what they were all thinking, but their faces showed it.  
 28-30The woman took the hint and left. In her confusion she left her water pot. Back in the village she told the people, "Come see a man who knew all about the things I did, who knows me inside and out. Do you think this could be the Messiah?" And they went out to see for themselves.


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## MomofThreeBoys (Nov 21, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> So now we're back to the issue of force....I have spoken to that particular aspect of this topic as well. Force of belief versus force of principle versus force of action.... In the context of the abortion question from a biblical standpoint was where I was speaking from.... But I'll yet again indulge:
> 
> *How exactly would one be FORCED to accept Christ? Put a gun to their head and have them quote Romans 10:9? Or are we talking about a more manipulative, seductive approach? Or are we talking about a person in a desperate situation (say the final moments before the enactment of a death penalty?)*
> 
> ...


 
People have been forced in the past to renounce their beliefs and "say" they accept Christ. This is not true Christianity. I agree true Christianity cannot be forced. But there are some who have tried, and there are those who continue to "force" religious beliefs on others. This is not unique to Christianity. Crusades, Holy Wars..... etc.

I agree with your second paragraph ETA:  I meant third.

Allowing someone to choose, does not support the rejection. Period. I'm done.


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## patient1 (Nov 21, 2007)

Edited to fulfill my agreement with the Most High who rules ALL. 

p1


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## ShiShiPooPoo (Nov 21, 2007)

God is the originator of all life as we know it on planet earth...period.


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## divya (Nov 22, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> The sanctity of life (in or out of the womb) is not a personal conviction for the Bible-believing Christian. It is a biblical mandate. Exodus 20:13: Thou shalt not kill. Kill being defined as the shedding of INNOCENT BLOOD.



The point is that the Lord does not force anyone to follow Him...and the issue of abortion does not concern only Bible-believing Christians...


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## divya (Nov 22, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> I kindly refer you to my "thinking out loud" post (Post #56).



Ok wait, maybe I missed this. So do you do not agree with governmental legislation regarding abortion?  If that is the case, then we are not in disagreement.  I believe abortion is a sin, but simply do not believe that we can force anyone to conform to our beliefs, especially through legislation. I do agree that God will hold us accountable for what we know to be right. That means of course, that those of us who profess Christianity - and know that we ought not abort babies - are held to that standard.


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## divya (Nov 22, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Religious freedom is a governmental term and I have stated that my boundaries for this discussion are beyond governmental and more toward the religious/spiritual components. But I'll indulge....
> 
> http://www.state.gov/g/drl/irf/
> U.S. Department of State
> ...



Religious freedom did not begin with the U.S. government...it is throughout the Bible.


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## PaperClip (Nov 22, 2007)

divya said:


> Ok wait, maybe I missed this.* So do you do not agree with governmental legislation regarding abortion?* If that is the case, then we are not in disagreement. I believe abortion is a sin, but simply do not believe that we can force anyone to conform to our beliefs, especially through legislation. I do agree that God will hold us accountable for what we know to be right. That means of course, that those of us who profess Christianity - and know that we ought not abort babies - are held to that standard.


 
Right. I never said I did agree with governmental legislation. For one reason, it cannot be fully enforced, on the belief/values side or the action side.


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## divya (Nov 22, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Right. I never said I did agree with governmental legislation. For one reason, it cannot be fully enforced, on the belief/values side or the action side.



Well, my apologies then because I missed that completely.  Then I'm not sure that there is much we disagree on. I was just stating that people do have the right to choose and that the government should not remove that choice via legislation because it is intertwined with religion.  However, do I believe abortion is wrong/sin? Yes. Does that Bible condone abortion? No.  Neither do I believe that as Christians, we should have abortions or condone them. Overall we seem to be in agreement.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING!


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## AfroKink (Nov 22, 2007)

thanks for the response RelaxerRehab.  I'm still confused, so I'll continue to search.

Lys


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## PaperClip (Nov 23, 2007)

Came across this blog on the topic....

http://hellonegro.wordpress.com/200...g-black-women-are-we-being-targeted/#comments

*Abortions Among Black Women: Are we being targeted*

*Atlanta, GA (LifeNews.com) — *The new report the Centers for Disease Control released this week about annual abortion figures in the United States shows abortions continue to target black women more so than other ethnic groups. The 2004 report also shows about 10 percent of all abortions in the United States are done with the dangerous RU 486 abortion drug.The CDC shows a majority of women who get abortions are white (53 percent) compared with 35 percent done on African-Americans, 8 percent on women of other ethnic backgrounds and the race of the woman was unknown in four percent of the cases.

However, the abortion ratio for black women (472 per 1,000 live births) was 2.9 times higher than the ratio for white women (161 per 1,000).
Examined another way, nearly half of all pregnancies among black women end in abortion while just 16 percent of pregnancies among while women end in abortion.  The abortion rate for black women (28 per 1,000 women) was 2.8 times the rate for white women (10 per 1,000) — meaning a much greater percentage.


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## Shimmie (Nov 23, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Came across this blog on the topic....
> 
> http://hellonegro.wordpress.com/200...g-black-women-are-we-being-targeted/#comments
> 
> ...


It's seems so much like 'Black' genocide; and the government is happily oblidged to 'pay' for it.   

BTW:  RR you have really added the educational and Godly balance to this thread.  Although I may have the true facts, my emotions make it challenging to share them as 'such'.   

Bottomline, I appreciate you and your level headed approach to all of the threads you share in.  I can see you have the full armour of God and His wisdom in tact. 

This thread really grew....... I have to take time to read the new posts since I've been offline.  

Blessings RR...I mean it sincerely.


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## golden bronze (Nov 27, 2007)

This is a hard subject for me, because I believe abortion is a sin, and it is wrong. This is timely for me because I was asked to participate in a region wide vigil and prayer march against black on black crime, -- but the organizers also want to march against abortion. I was torn, and now I know why. 

Abortion is a sin like any other sin, and the wages of sin is death. Jesus paid the cost for sin not so that we can remain in sin, but because all have fallen short. 

I believe that abortion is a sin, but I don't believe that the government should execute the punishment; just as I don't believe in capital punishment. Man made justice will never speak to the true spirit of God's divine justice, because God's jusgement is perfect, and man's is incomplete. Killing another man to prove that killing is wrong does not promote repentance. Remember God sacrificed his own life for our salvation. Death for death does not equal life. 

I also think that abortion isn't the issue. 

There is a deep uncomfortability I feel about the right to life movement. It reminds me of the *Pharisees*. Political operatives posing as having the appearance of being Godly have used God's law to promote their own agendas. I know that because I have seen no compassion in the actions of these movements. The same movements that oppose abortion, would walk past a single mother with three children, or children living in squalor and start talking about personal responsibility while conviently neglecting the responisbility we have to one another as Christians. It is the lack of compassion in these movements that lead me to believe that more often than not they are concerned with egotism, and not benevolence because the love is missing. 

Abortion as contraception is not effective. I know people who have had abortions because they were raped as children, and I believe that those acts were not right, however, I know that each of us must choose  whom we will serve each day. I believe God is just, and He is also merciful. I believe in free will. We have free will to choose who we serve everyday.

Does this mean because we have the freedom to choose we should choose sin? Well of course not! That really isn't a viable choice. But I think we should go back to the orginal sin in this-- why are young women having sex to make themselves feel wanted and desired? Why our our young women selling their bodies to be financially stable, or to proove conquest? Why are our young men trained to believe that the only way they can show deep love and passion for a woman is to hit it? Why are people using sex to fill the God shaped void in their lives? What is the anatomy of a latent rapist, and why  in the black community are they allowed to sit in our living rooms with multi-generations of their victims? 

You see, if we started there, with the heart problem, we'd see that the sin began before the woman sat on the table. The sin began before the sex, and even before the desire for sex ever materialized. The sin began when we used something that was not God to fill our need for him. 

That's where I'd like to start this conversation. That's what is missing for me.


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