# Catholicism Is Not Christianity?



## options (Apr 1, 2005)

Mods: I am placing this in the off-topic board because I do not ascribe to Catholicism as Bible-based Christianity. I am wondering if Catholic members here consider themselves Christians, or something else entirely or possibly something else closely linked.

Let's peruse and consider the information in the following link: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp


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## Eiano (Apr 1, 2005)

Catholics believe in God and accept Jesus as our savior....

For a while, the Catholic Church was very corrupt and immoral. Some of the changes that occured when it was corrupt have become part of tradition. That doesn't mean that we are not CHRISTians-- believing in Christ.  But it takes time for changes to be accepted, and some of these changes have become out belief.

And as for this website..






Pope Innocent died in 1216 from what I found. I have a hard time seeing Pope JPII saying some of these things.


A lot of these 'facts' are being quoted from people who have died . What one man says shouldn't be used to judge the whole religion. So.... that's just my defending of Catholicism...


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## aquarian1252004 (Apr 1, 2005)

Girl, I don't even want to go there (especially under the current circumstances) . . . and I have way too much to say about it. But I will say this the world worships the pope as if he is God or the Lord Jesus Christ himself . I will keep my "real" thoughts to myself because I don't want to offend anyone .


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## InsertCleverNameHere (Apr 1, 2005)

This is the same type of argument my bf was trying to make about protestants or the rest of the Christians. He doesn't feel like they believe in the bible because they make up their own holidays and worship on sunday instead of the sabbath, etc things that aren't in the bible...

I personally believe that if you believe in Christ and that he died for your sins and all that jazz, that is what makes you Christian.

But I dunno, I have been thinking about this since he made that comment.


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## Poohbear (Apr 1, 2005)

*What is the big deal about the Pope? Why is he looked up to so much? What has he done and what does he do???  (I'm just asking out of curiosity, not attacking  )*


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## EbonyEyes (Apr 2, 2005)

My mom revealed something to me about the Catholic religion through her Bible studies and it scared the living daylights out of me.

If I'm wrong, please correct me but Catholics believe they are Christians because they believe in Christ.  An interesting thing though:  There are Catholics that believe that they are the ONE TRUE Christian religion.

I will never for the life of me understand why people will bow down to the pope and kiss his hand like he is God.  With that being said though, I cried for the life of the Pope and prayed that if it is God's will, that his soul be accepted by God and the Pope will have eternal peace in heaven.

-Ebony


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## nurseN98 (Apr 2, 2005)

EbonyEyes said:
			
		

> My mom revealed something to me about the Catholic religion through her Bible studies and it scared the living daylights out of me.
> 
> If I'm wrong, please correct me but Catholics believe they are Christians because they believe in Christ.  An interesting thing though: _ *There are Catholics that believe that they are the ONE TRUE Christian religion.*
> _
> ...



I was raised Catholic but I have developed my own view on religion as a whole. But I have to say that I have met many, MANY Protestant people who embody the sentance that you wrote.  MANY...they've tried to convert me and my mother telling us we will go to hell if we don't join thier church. I don't believe there is one true religion because RELIGION is man made.....all of them. So please don't generalize Catholics and Catholicism that way.


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## nurseN98 (Apr 2, 2005)

options said:
			
		

> Mods: I am placing this in the off-topic board because I do not ascribe to Catholicism as Bible-based Christianity. I am wondering if Catholic members here consider themselves Christians, or something else entirely or possibly something else closely linked.
> 
> Let's peruse and consider the information in the following link: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp



I'm not a die hard Catholic anymore but my mother is and she is a Christian...so am I. She studies the Bible as do I.  There are many things I stopped doing because I learned the origin of it. But there are many faithful Catholics that accept Jesus Christ as their saviour. As I said earlier I don't consider myself a true Catholic anymore but I refuse to enter any other denomination that condemns me because I was Catholic and judges Catholics and views us as some kind abomination. I am a Christian and I wish protestant people would stop bashing Catholics so badly. Jesus saves Catholics also.


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## stcsweet (Apr 2, 2005)

Here's one reference to differences between Catholics and Protestants..

CARM.org


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## aquarian1252004 (Apr 2, 2005)

I just wish people would stop arguing over RELIGION which is not created by God, but by man. I believe religion is the devils biggest tool to create division amongst the body of Christ. Has any one ever noticed that the word denomination sounds like it is rooted from the word demon? Bottom line if we all truly read our bibles under the interpretation and guidance of the Holy Spirit there would be no argument. Because no man can argue with the true word of God.


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## EbonyEyes (Apr 2, 2005)

nurseN98 said:
			
		

> I was raised Catholic but I have developed my own view on religion as a whole. But I have to say that I have met many, MANY Protestant people who embody the sentance that you wrote.  MANY...they've tried to convert me and my mother telling us we will go to hell if we don't join thier church. I don't believe there is one true religion because RELIGION is man made.....all of them. So please don't generalize Catholics and Catholicism that way.



Generalizing is saying ALL (or most) Catholics believe that Catholicism is the one true Christian religion.  I said _There are_ Catholics who believe that Catholicism is the one true Christian religion.  I know they exist because I have spoken to Catholics who feel this way.  I didn't even say that there are _many_ because I don't know how many Catholics actually feel this way.

_There are Christians who are pro-life_ (True Statement).  This is different from _All Christians are pro-life_ or _Most Christians are pro-life_.  I honestly don't even know what percentage of Christians are pro-life so I wouldn't dare say _most_.

_There are people who attend church and claim they are Christian but are really  hypocrites_ (True Statement).  This is different from _All people (or the majority of people) who attend church and claim they are Christian are hypocrites._


Please don't accuse me of generalizing when I did no such thing.

-Ebony


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## EbonyEyes (Apr 2, 2005)

nurseN98 said:
			
		

> I'm not a die hard Catholic anymore but my mother is and she is a Christian...so am I. She studies the Bible as do I.  There are many things I stopped doing because I learned the origin of it. But there are many faithful Catholics that accept Jesus Christ as their saviour. As I said earlier I don't consider myself a true Catholic anymore but I refuse to enter any other denomination that condemns me because I was Catholic and judges Catholics and views us as some kind abomination. I am a Christian and I wish protestant people would stop bashing Catholics so badly. Jesus saves Catholics also.



I am not afraid to say that I don't agree with some principles of Catholicism for there are principles that I don't agree with in my own Baptist church.

And I agree with you, Jesus does save Catholics.  He also saves baptists, lutherans, and presbyterians, etc.  As far as I'm concerned, if you love Jesus, then you're in there.

I do have a question....Does Catholicism trace its roots back to Saint Peter (I learned that he is sometimes referred to as the 1st pope)?

-Ebony


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## Poohbear (Apr 2, 2005)

_*You can't flat out say Catholics are not Christians.  It all depends on that one Catholics' beliefs.  Some consider themselves Christians (I'm assuming if they have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior) and some do not consider themselves Christians.  I remember in high school, this boy asked this girl if she was a Christian and she said "No, I'm Catholic."  I didn't understand because I myself thought all Catholics were Christians since Catholicism is considered a Christian denomination.
I know that some Catholics carry a Bible that has more books in it than Protestant Christians do (is there a Catholic here that knows what I'm talking about? I forgot what the extra books were called).  I'm not sure what those extra books say though.  I also know they practice and do certain things that are not in the Holy Bible that Christians follow such as sprinkling of babies, confessing sins to a priest, putting big emphasis on Mary, believing in Purgatory (sp?), etc. But I'm thinking that some of those things could be in the extra books in the Bible they have.*_


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## Poohbear (Apr 2, 2005)

EbonyEyes said:
			
		

> Generalizing is saying ALL (or most) Catholics believe that Catholicism is the one true Christian religion. I said _There are_ Catholics who believe that Catholicism is the one true Christian religion. I know they exist because I have spoken to Catholics who feel this way. I didn't even say that there are _many_ because I don't know how many Catholics actually feel this way.
> 
> _There are Christians who are pro-life_ (True Statement). This is different from _All Christians are pro-life_ or _Most Christians are pro-life_. I honestly don't even know what percentage of Christians are pro-life so I wouldn't dare say _most_.
> 
> ...


I didn't think you were generalizing.  But I just wanted to say that using "All" is more generalized than using "Most" so they are different.


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## Poohbear (Apr 2, 2005)

aquarian1252004 said:
			
		

> I just wish people would stop arguing over RELIGION which is not created by God, but by man. I believe religion is the devils biggest tool to create division amongst the body of Christ. Has any one ever noticed that the word denomination sounds like it is rooted from the word demon? Bottom line if we all truly read our bibles under the interpretation and guidance of the Holy Spirit there would be no argument. Because no man can argue with the true word of God.


*ITA! Great post!   But you know what? I think it's hard not to avoid division when you have different denominations that practice and believe certain things in the Bible.  I think that's why we have people that argue about certain things in the Bible.  Even among protestant denominations we have differences in beliefs (e.g. There are Baptist churches that are for woman preachers/pastors and there are Baptist churches that are against woman preachers/pastors). I wish Christians (whether you're Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, etc.) could come together but I don't think that'll ever happen.  *


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## options (Apr 2, 2005)

I don't know why the Pope is revered as if he is God himself. He is a man, a human, like you and me and Joe Blow. Has he performed good deeds? Probably. But have you and I? Probably so.

I asked my mother, who was once a Catholic is now a Bahai, why she wanted us to be Catholics when we were young. She said, "I wanted you to be in the best Christian church." I told her that I do not believe Catholicism is Christianity. I asked her, "Why do they pray to saints? Saints are humans who presumably did good deeds and were designated as saints posthumously. If I performed good deeds in life and then was deemed a saint after death, would you pray in my name (as some Catholics do)?" And she did not want to touch that.

LOL.



			
				EbonyEyes said:
			
		

> My mom revealed something to me about the Catholic religion through her Bible studies and it scared the living daylights out of me.
> 
> If I'm wrong, please correct me but Catholics believe they are Christians because they believe in Christ.  An interesting thing though:  There are Catholics that believe that they are the ONE TRUE Christian religion.
> 
> ...


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## options (Apr 2, 2005)

aquarian1252004 said:
			
		

> I just wish people would stop arguing over RELIGION which is not created by God, but by man. I believe religion is the devils biggest tool to create division amongst the body of Christ. Has any one ever noticed that the word denomination sounds like it is rooted from the word demon? Bottom line if we all truly read our bibles under the interpretation and guidance of the Holy Spirit there would be no argument. Because no man can argue with the true word of God.



I totally agree! I am not trying to incite discord, but I am seriously wanting some answers and thoughts from others on Catholicism. I don't align myself with any denomination in particular, period.


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## MeccaMedinah (Apr 2, 2005)

options said:
			
		

> I totally agree! I am not trying to incite discord, but I am seriously wanting some answers and thoughts from others on Catholicism. I don't align myself with any denomination in particular, period.



*
Did you read the "I Have a Question For Catholics" thread? They answered many questions there, including whether they consider themselves Christians.*


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## Laginappe (Apr 2, 2005)

options said:
			
		

> I totally agree! I am not trying to incite discord, but I am seriously wanting some answers and thoughts from others on Catholicism. I don't align myself with any denomination in particular, period.


 
Options - if you're not trying to incite discord then why post a site that's filled with hate and slander? That site is so far over the top its incredible. Here's what I learned after a few minutes clicking around on that site:

- The Catholic church is a whore. And it was at the root of the Holocaust. 

- African nations are suffering today becuase they broke ties with Israel

- Homosexuals have demons living inside them, and teachers who instruct from a stance of accepting all others - well they're just evil witch like hags. 

- Holy Communion is actually a Death Cookie - very interesting since I thought most Christian based churches had one form of Communion or another. But I suppose its only a Death Cookie if its given at Mass?

- Only the people of Isreal are God's Chosen - well then I guess the rest of us are screwed no matter what huh? 

- Vampires walk the earth. - Seriously. They have a book listed there that tells the story of a supposed ex-vampire "Lucifer Dethroned", the true story of an ex-vampire by William Schnoebelen. By Chick Publications.  

- Jesus himself actually hates Catholicism (Cause remember the Church is the Great Whore) and and and actually the KKK along with other vague images of various world and religious leaders - well they're all in cahoots with the Pope! Whodathunkit?

Now this is really cool! 

- If you can decode Satan's secret message, about Mary (you did know Mary was Satan's masterpiece to control his religious slaves didn't you??) Well if you can unravel the secret Satan Code - Jesus will expose the counterfeit church to you.  Hmmm I wonder if I need a secret decoder ring for that one? And I wonder if it can be purchased at Chick.com? 

And I just really love how its all designed in an "innocent" comic book / cartoon format.  Very slick on their part.  Be careful of where you get your "information" from. Sites like that are based in hate not exchanging information about another way of life. You can find similar cartoons on sites that are anti-Semite, Nazi and Skinhead based etc.  The KKK types use similar methods to teach their children about their version of the "truth" of Black people. 

It saddens me that a reasonable intelligent person would look at the contents of that site and eat up it. Believe it because it reinforces their pre-disposed opinions about someone else's way of life. We're supposed to be smarter than that.


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## nurseN98 (Apr 2, 2005)

aquarian1252004 said:
			
		

> I just wish people would stop arguing over RELIGION which is not created by God, but by man. I believe religion is the devils biggest tool to create division amongst the body of Christ. Has any one ever noticed that the word denomination sounds like it is rooted from the word demon? Bottom line if we all truly read our bibles under the interpretation and guidance of the Holy Spirit there would be no argument. Because no man can argue with the true word of God.



I agree 100%


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## nurseN98 (Apr 2, 2005)

EbonyEyes said:
			
		

> Generalizing is saying ALL (or most) Catholics believe that Catholicism is the one true Christian religion.  I said _There are_ Catholics who believe that Catholicism is the one true Christian religion.  I know they exist because I have spoken to Catholics who feel this way.  I didn't even say that there are _many_ because I don't know how many Catholics actually feel this way.
> 
> _There are Christians who are pro-life_ (True Statement).  This is different from _All Christians are pro-life_ or _Most Christians are pro-life_.  I honestly don't even know what percentage of Christians are pro-life so I wouldn't dare say _most_.
> 
> ...




Pardon me EbonyEyes, I didn't mean to make it sound as if you are a basher. But when you write that you've learned something that "scared the living daylights out of (you)" from a Bible study about the Catholic religion, it comes across as if you've already formed your opinion about Catholicism. You did say there are Catholics who believe Catholicism is the one true Christian religion. You could say that for a lot of other religions as well.

I'm not by any means saying the Catholic church has not been wrong in many instances. That is one of the reasons I've not only distanced myself from it, but all formalized religion in general. The only thing I'm saying is that some people from other denominations always seem fit to question a Catholic person's devotion to God and whether they are truly Christian. My point is why continue to question Catholics? It's a divisive tactic in general. 

The person who started this thread has already stated: 
"I am placing this in the off-topic board because I do not ascribe to Catholicism as Bible-based Christianity."

If that is the case, what more could you possibly want to know? You've posted the link to that pamphlet (folks used to hand those out where I live) so you must believe what you've read. Is anything a Catholic says going to change your view and help you see that Catholics are Christians?

Just reading over what I wrote, I must apologize for the harshness but I've been defending the notion that Catholics are Christian for a while now and it's getting old. All man made religions have problems and are fillled with hypocrisy. So I don't understand why this particular topic keeps coming up.


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## PretteePlease (Apr 2, 2005)

i dont know enough about Catholicism to say it is or isnt Christianity.
i dont believe in everything but that goes with all denoms


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## DragonPearl (Apr 2, 2005)

options said:
			
		

> I asked her, "Why do they pray to saints? Saints are humans who presumably did good deeds and were designated as saints posthumously. If I performed good deeds in life and then was deemed a saint after death, would you pray in my name (as some Catholics do)?" And she did not want to touch that.
> 
> LOL.


 
IMO, the word saint gets thrown around a little too casually. Doing some good deeds does not qualify anyone to be called a saint. We all do some good deeds, but the difference between people like you and me who do good deeds once in a while, when it suits us, and people who have dedicated their lives to selfishly do good deeds for their fellow human beings is what differenciates the regular person from a *true* saint. 

Obviously you have not read the lives of some of those saints. If you are *genuinely* wanting to have answers, do yourself a favor, take some time to read about the lives of Saint Francis of Assissi, Mother Theresa, St. Vincent de Paul, etc... There are saints who left the world to live in lepers colonies to help the lepers, at the risk of their own health. How many of us would do things like that? Saints are revered and admired by Catholics because they are examples that it is possible to reach a high state of love and compassion while living in this body. 

I don't believe that every canonized saint is really a saint. Too often, the Catholic Church has canonized people for political reasons. Joan of Arc is such an example. Lastly, I also don't believe you have to be catholic to be a saint. There are selfless and compassionate beings in most religious traditions who could be called saints. A prime example are the Tibetan monks who even after being tortured by the Chinese still expressed love and compassion for their torturers. How many of us could claim to be capable of such high spirit of forgiveness?


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## Keike (Apr 2, 2005)

What a cruel thread.  

Chris·tian  
1.Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. 
2.Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings. 
3.Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike. 
4.Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents. 
5.Showing a loving concern for others; humane. 

n. 
1.One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. 
2.One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus. 

Now, how exactly is a Catholic not a Christian?


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## sunshine91496 (Apr 2, 2005)

First, I am Catholic, and I was a little apprehensive coming to look at the comments on the board because of the misinformation i've read here in the past, but I felt it would be better to engage in constructive discussion; rather than let the misinformation stand. 

In traditional times Catholics did believe they were the one true religion. It was widely even said that "good jews" really were Catholic at heart because they wanted to be saved.  My parents are from Latin america, and all faiths, Baptists, Pentacostal, Episcopal, Seventh Day, etc all were baptized Catholic "just in case" it was the true religion.  The word "catholic" itself means universal, and thus was deemed the universal religion. Saint Peter was the first pope and was said to have been called to this position by direction of God through the Holy Spirit.  The Pope's goal is not to be God or even God like (unfortunately as with any institution, people gain power and abuse it) but rather to continue passing on Jesus' teachings on earth.  This was especially important because in early years after Jesus' death there were many different factions that attempted to twist and mold Jesus' teachings.  It  is believed that this is why the Holy Sprit called upon Saint Peter, one of Jesus' closest's disciples to unify the factions.  Obviously over the centuries the Church changed from a religious or devotional institution to a political one and unfortunately some leaders took their position to cause harm to other people.  This is one of the main reasons Martin Luther led the Reformation to break away from the Church.  However the major roled is to unify the faithful.  Catholics believe that God through the Holy Spirit directly leads the Pope in making church doctrine.  Thus when the Pope speaks he is not speaking as a human, but he is "passing on" the word of God. 

As for Catholics being Christians as I said, Catholics were the first identifiable Christians (in the sense that they were a unified organization which espoused Christian thought).


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## gotshuz (Apr 3, 2005)

The word catholic means christian .

Did Jesus  die for my sins?, yes  do i believe this yes?  by this i am saved  i by this believe I am  christian ........This is one of the most mean spirited threads I have ever read ...... Why must people feel the need to destroy one thing to build up another I have never been around a group of catholics that sit around and wonder if Protestants are saved or christian but i always hear it the other way around ...  We worship the same God


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## fine_beauty (Apr 3, 2005)

Options,

I am so appalled by your statements on this hate-filled thread. Ask yourself one question. Are you doing Christ Jesus' bidding by starting this kind of thread? Is the holy spirit glorified? I shake as I type this?

May the good Lord forgive you on this divine mercy sunday during which he has promised his inexhaustible mercy to all. 

If you sincerely have any questions, please send them to me via pm or use my email account [email protected]

Please for the love of God desist from doing what Peter (our first Pope) wrote about in 2 Peter 2 vs. 11 and beyond

In summary, do not revile things you have no understanding of.

Gamaliel in Acts 5 vs. 34-39 states 

"Fellow Israelites, be careful what you are about to do to these men. 
36 
Some time ago, Theudas appeared, claiming to be someone important, and about four hundred men joined him, but he was killed, and all those who were loyal to him were disbanded and came to nothing. 
37 
After him came Judas the Galilean at the time of the census. He also drew people after him, but he too perished and all who were loyal to him were scattered. 
38 
So now I tell you, have nothing to do with these men, and let them go. For if this endeavor or this activity is of human origin, it will destroy itself. 
39 
But if it comes from God, you will not be able to destroy them; you may even find yourselves fighting against God." 

You and the author of that hate-filled chick comic strip need to take the example of wise Gamaliel so you  may not end up fighting God. *If the catholic church is not instituted by God and maintained by the holy spirit, God will destroy it but if God has his stamp on it, you are in essence being a pain in the butt to God and you do not want to face his awesome wrath, I can assure you.*




			
				options said:
			
		

> Mods: I am placing this in the off-topic board because I do not ascribe to Catholicism as Bible-based Christianity. I am wondering if Catholic members here consider themselves Christians, or something else entirely or possibly something else closely linked.
> 
> Let's peruse and consider the information in the following link: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp


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## options (Apr 3, 2005)

Honestly, I don't see how inquiry is hate-filled. I believe God would want people to interact, communicate and discuss religion and spirituality in order to ultimately find ourselves closer to Him and to the Truth.

I said, let's consider and peruse the following link. I did not say this is the God's honest, absolute truth about the Catholic church. I do think that the site made some interesting points, but I wouldn't use it as a primary or exclusive source for information.


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## sunshine91496 (Apr 3, 2005)

Inquiry is one thing, but speech that intends to cause a rise can be hate-filled.  Do you know how many message boards have comments that question whether Blacks are even human? or claim to prove that Balcks are just animal socialized to interact with "real" humans.  I  mean such statements could be argued to be inquiry, but really it's just hate.  It's one thing to ask questions, but when questions are packed with inherent bias, then obviously there is a problem.  That's not religion, that's logic.


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## fine_beauty (Apr 3, 2005)

sunshine91496 said:
			
		

> Inquiry is one thing, but speech that intends to cause a rise can be hate-filled.  Do you know how many message boards have comments that question whether Blacks are even human? or claim to prove that Balcks are just animal socialized to interact with "real" humans.  I  mean such statements could be argued to be inquiry, but really it's just hate.  It's one thing to ask questions, but when questions are packed with inherent bias, then obviously there is a problem.  That's not religion, that's logic.




I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and God willing she will have learned something positive and perhaps the answer to her question from this thread.


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## BAILEYSCREAM (Apr 3, 2005)

Eiano said:
			
		

> *Catholics believe in God and accept Jesus as our savior....*
> 
> *For a while, the Catholic Church was very corrupt and immoral*. Some of the changes that occured when it was corrupt have become part of tradition. That doesn't mean that we are not CHRISTians-- believing in Christ. But it takes time for changes to be accepted, and some of these changes have become out belief.
> 
> ...


 
Ok, for the most part I don't participate in the religious discussions because I know how they go, but, alot of non catholic churches also have corruption and immorality going on and I can give examples.


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## BAILEYSCREAM (Apr 3, 2005)

options said:
			
		

> Mods: I am placing this in the off-topic board because *I do not ascribe to Catholicism as Bible-based Christianity.* I am wondering if Catholic members here consider themselves Christians, or something else entirely or possibly something else closely linked.
> 
> Let's peruse and consider the information in the following link: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp


 

Just a quick question Options.
What *DO* you ascribe/base the catholicism as? 

They read the bible don't they? Unless of course there is some other book they read that I don't know about. 

As far as I'm concerned. If you believe in God and accept him as savior then you're a Christian. Period.
Christian come in all different forms. As long as they have one common goal (believing in God) then I think that's what counts.



			
				nurseN98 said:
			
		

> *So please don't generalize Catholics and Catholicism that way*.


 
Very good point. It can be all too easy to find fault with any church. Nobody is perfect, especially if you're human.

Also, unless you've been to several churches, how could you possibly know how they worship.

I think people need to keep a focus on personally trying to get to heaven (if you believe in it and care to go there) instead of focusing on other people.


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## Laginappe (Apr 3, 2005)

options said:
			
		

> Honestly, I don't see how inquiry is hate-filled. I believe God would want people to interact, communicate and discuss religion and spirituality in order to ultimately find ourselves closer to Him and to the Truth.
> 
> I said, let's consider and peruse the following link. I did not say this is the God's honest, absolute truth about the Catholic church. I do think that the site made some interesting points, but I wouldn't use it as a primary or exclusive source for information.


 
Well, I perused the link and I find it not worthy of consideration. That you do is very telling about the true nature behind your supposed inquiry. Those points you find interesting are nothing but hateful slander. Interesting? That's really sad.  And if you wouldn't use it as a primary or exclusive source - why post it in the first place? Why not find a site that truly offers an intelligent exchange of information about Catholicism and religion in general.  If its not your primary source why is it the ONE you want to discuss?


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## Sweet_Ambrosia (Apr 3, 2005)

options said:
			
		

> I don't know why the Pope is revered as if he is God himself. He is a man, a human, like you and me and Joe Blow. Has he performed good deeds? Probably. But have you and I? Probably so.
> 
> I asked my mother, who was once a Catholic is now a Bahai, why she wanted us to be Catholics when we were young. She said, "I wanted you to be in the best Christian church*." I told her that I do not believe Catholicism is Christianity. * I asked her, "Why do they pray to saints? Saints are humans who presumably did good deeds and were designated as saints posthumously. If I performed good deeds in life and then was deemed a saint after death, would you pray in my name (as some Catholics do)?" And she did not want to touch that.
> 
> LOL.



*
Is this your main reason for making this thread??
The link that was provided isnt worthy to be discuss,its bogus!*


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## Enchantmt (Apr 3, 2005)

I havent looked at the links but basically EVERY denomination believes their way is the one true way, or at least that was their principle in the beginning before all the political correctness came on the scene, otherwise they wouldnt even exist. They basically said, your doctrine, or interpretation of it, is wrong and this is what we believe, this is whats right so we are going to start our own church.

 The reason people say negative things about the Catholic Church, if I'm not mistaken,and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong,  is that they pray to saints, which is not biblical or at least *I* cant recall a passage where Jesus or his disciples instructed anyone to pray to anyone other than God or Jesus or in their name or  where anyone other than Jesus or the Holy spirit is listed as an intercessor. (Not speaking of the living saying prayer, like Job did for his sons and daughters). There are also books that arent in the agreed upon canon, which I havent read, tho I think my mom has a copy, and some say the books have spells or endorsement of witchcraft, which is an abomination. They are considered Christian however, and actually the one universally recognized symbols of Christianity, in my opinion. I think thats one of the reasons they have had so many problems, I seriously believe there is a spiritual attack being waged upon them. Millions look to the Catholic church for leadership, if they fall, if faith is lost in one of the major symbols, all kinds of havoc can be caused. Not to dismiss the actions of people in the scandals that have been revealed, but I think church leaders in general are subjected to more spiritual attacks, and insted of them addressing the issues as they arose they swept them under the rug and kept untrustworthy people in leadership positions. But thats a WHOLENOTHERTHREAD.    

ETA: As far as folx worshiping the Pope like hes God, that goes on on a smaller scale in almost every church everyday. Its the nature of people to idolize what they can see, thats why when there is a preacher or leader that falls, some folx faith fails because they were caught up in the man/messenger and not the message. The bible warns against this for good reason.


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## fine_beauty (Apr 3, 2005)

Hi Enchantmt,

I'm stepping in because you stated someone will correct you if you are wrong. Pertaining to your statement in bold below, I have the following rejoinder:

When God refers to Himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, was He referring to Himself as the God of the Living or the God of the Dead?

Our Lord answered this very question when he was questioned about the resurrection cum the marriage question of the Sadducees as indicated below
Matt 22:23-33 

23 The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, 

24 saying: "Teacher, Moses said that if a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. 

25 "Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. 

26 "Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh. 

"Last of all the woman died also. 

"Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her." 

Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 

"For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. 

"But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 

'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." 

And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching. 

(NKJ) 



Mark 12:18-27 

The saints are alive because they died in friendship with God and the prayer of a just man availaith much (James 5 vs 16)

God bless,



			
				Enchantmt said:
			
		

> I havent looked at the links but basically EVERY denomination believes their way is the one true way, or at least that was their principle in the beginning before all the political correctness came on the scene, otherwise they wouldnt even exist. They basically said, your doctrine, or interpretation of it, is wrong and this is what we believe, this is whats right so we are going to start our own church.
> 
> The reason people say negative things about the Catholic Church, if I'm not mistaken,and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong,  is that they pray to saints, which is not biblical or at least *I* cant recall a passage where Jesus or his disciples instructed anyone to pray to anyone other than God or Jesus or in their name or  where anyone other than Jesus or the Holy spirit is listed as an intercessor. *(Not speaking of the living saying prayer, like Job did for his sons and daughters). *There are also books that arent in the agreed upon canon, which I havent read, tho I think my mom has a copy, and some say the books have spells or endorsement of witchcraft, which is an abomination. They are considered Christian however, and actually the one universally recognized symbols of Christianity, in my opinion. I think thats one of the reasons they have had so many problems, I seriously believe there is a spiritual attack being waged upon them. Millions look to the Catholic church for leadership, if they fall, if faith is lost in one of the major symbols, all kinds of havoc can be caused. Not to dismiss the actions of people in the scandals that have been revealed, but I think church leaders in general are subjected to more spiritual attacks, and insted of them addressing the issues as they arose they swept them under the rug and kept untrustworthy people in leadership positions. But thats a WHOLENOTHERTHREAD.
> 
> ETA: As far as folx worshiping the Pope like hes God, that goes on on a smaller scale in almost every church everyday. Its the nature of people to idolize what they can see, thats why when there is a preacher or leader that falls, some folx faith fails because they were caught up in the man/messenger and not the message. The bible warns against this for good reason.


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## Tai (Apr 3, 2005)

It's threads like this that made me stop coming to the Christianity board.  After this, I will never return.  I don't know how some so called Christians can say some of the horrible things they do about the Catholic faith.   Follow the way that God calls you and don't worry about what other people do.  Period, end of story.


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## Enchantmt (Apr 3, 2005)

I'm sorry I thought I was clear. Yes God is the God of the living, however I do not see any scripture where we are instructed to pray to or in the name of anyone other than the Father(God-not earthly or spirtual fathers), the Son (Jesus) or the Holy Spirit. Nor do I see where anyone had physically died and been named an intercessor on behalf of man or listed as having the power to answer prayer, although there are instances of people (those not yet having experienced physical death) praying on behalf of other peope (those not yet having experienced physical death) as Job did for his sons and daughters or as Paul prayed for his disciples, friends and the church. I'm not saying there arent any, but I dont recall any, so if you or anyone has any biblical example can you please post the chapter and verse? Thanx. 

ETA: I dont have any animosity toward this or any other faith, I was just trying to answer the question as to why there is some confusion surrounding this faith and why some would have the idea that it is not Christian and from what I understand it is based on the praying to the saints and to the additional books in the Catholic bible. I could be wrong but that is my understanding of the issue.


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## pebbles (Apr 3, 2005)

As upsetting as this thread is for some people, I think it's necessary to clear up for those who don't know it, that Catholics are Christians. How it came to be that people feel it's a seperate religion on it's own, I'm not sure. But Catholics believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior. Some of their practices may be different from the Protestant faith, but we all believe in the saving grace of the Lord Jesus.


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## pebbles (Apr 3, 2005)

I just had a look at that link, and I see why some people are upset. I would ask people to be considerate of the fact that there are many members of the Catholic faith on this forum. Catholics are Christians. There's no question about that. Also, I think it's best to ask any questions you might have, but I don't think that we should post links like this that will cause friction. The purpose of this forum is not to attack Catholocism or it's teachings, but for us to pray and fellowhip together as Christian sisters.


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## Keen (Apr 3, 2005)

options said:
			
		

> Honestly, I don't see how inquiry is hate-filled. I believe God would want people to interact, communicate and discuss religion and spirituality in order to ultimately find ourselves closer to Him and to the Truth.
> 
> I said, let's consider and peruse the following link. I did not say this is the God's honest, absolute truth about the Catholic church. I do think that the site made some interesting points, but I wouldn't use it as a primary or exclusive source for information.



I also try to participate in these kind of religious discussion because of the slander. But as a Catholic I feel the need to say a few things this time. Here are my two cents:

Options, I don't think it is your question that is mind boggling, it is the website you used as facts to base your decison on. That was the only information you posted so it sound like that is what makes you wonder. I find it hard to believe that any christian woulld attribute any credibility to that website. But I guess people will believe whatever they want to believe because there are many non-catholics who went to that website and thought that information was baseless. 

As for the pope, I don't see that catholics worship him. Yes some people take his position in the church to the extreme just like some people idolizes celebraties but that doesn't mean all catholics think he is like God. As the leader of our church we have great respect for him.

As for Catholics praying to the dead, this is how I I take it: Jesus said several time that whoever believe in him will never die but does who are none believers are already dead (I can't remember the exact scriptures but it is repeated many times and I  will look it up if anyone wants me to). I interprated that as if anyone beleive in Jesus they have eternal life. When Jesus say that he will come back to judge the living and the dead, he didn't mean that the living  are the people who are still on earth and the dead are those who have passed on. To me it means that the living are those with eternal life and the dead are those who deosn't beleive.


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## zora (Apr 3, 2005)

I was raised Catholic, although now I try to attend churches that are non-denominational (although I've found in most cases they really are nominational).

I LOVE the Lord because of my Catholic upbringing.  And I plan to raise my children in the catholic faith because of my spiritual experience.

I left the church because I was disgusted with the politics, but to accuse Catholics of not being Christians is really ugly.


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## EssentialGrowth (Apr 3, 2005)

Keen said:
			
		

> As for the pope, I don't see that catholics worship him. Yes some people take his position in the church to the extreme just like some people idolizes celebraties but that doesn't mean all catholics think he is like God. As the leader of our church we have great respect for him.



And that's the problem to begin with, there shouldn't be a universal leader (a pope) for the Catholic Church, just like there shouldn't be patriarchs leading the Eastern Orthodox Church. The Bible says The Head of the Congregation should be Jesus Christ, a perfect man, and here Catholics (and other religions) are using an imperfect, fleshly man to lead them (Matthew 23:10).  Talk about contradictions.



			
				Keen said:
			
		

> As for Catholics praying to the dead, this is how I I take it: Jesus said several time that whoever believe in him will never die but does who are none believers are already dead (I can't remember the exact scriptures but it is repeated many times and I  will look it up if anyone wants me to). I interprated that as if anyone beleive in Jesus they have eternal life. When Jesus say that he will come back to judge the living and the dead, he didn't mean that the living  are the people who are still on earth and the dead are those who have passed on. To me it means that the living are those with eternal life and the dead are those who deosn't beleive.



So if the living are those who already received eternal life, what would be the point for Jesus to judge BOTH the living and dead, since the living have already been judged and gained this "eternal ife"??


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## EssentialGrowth (Apr 3, 2005)

zora said:
			
		

> I left the church because I was disgusted with the politics, but to accuse Catholics of not being Christians is really ugly.



Could you specify when you speak of "the politics".


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## zora (Apr 3, 2005)

EssentialGrowth said:
			
		

> Could you specify when you speak of "the politics".



I would say their role (or lack of) in the Holacaust and slavery.  They (the Vatican, not catholics) were not focal enough and they could've done more.

In addition, the whole concept of Vatican City really bothers me.  They seem too powerful for their own good.

However, none of the above takes away from my childhood spiritual growth. It was pretty powerful.


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## SVT (Apr 3, 2005)

options said:
			
		

> Mods: I am placing this in the off-topic board because I do not ascribe to Catholicism as Bible-based Christianity. I am wondering if Catholic members here consider themselves Christians, or something else entirely or possibly something else closely linked.
> 
> Let's peruse and consider the information in the following link: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp



Options, what is your commentary on the link you posted?


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## Selene (Apr 3, 2005)

From a historical standpoint, all of the protestant dominations flow from Catholicism.....The Catholic Church is the FIRST organized Christian church; Folks should read the history of the reformation, Martin Luther's criticism of the Church to see how the Church split into all of these various denominations...

I am Baptist, but I know Catholics don't "worship" the Pope...that's a bit much


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## Country gal (Apr 3, 2005)

I think you should define what christianity is. Once you do you will realize that Catholics are christians too. It's amazing to me that people don't think Catholics are christians when the Roman Catholic church was formed in honor of Jesus.  erplexed 



			
				options said:
			
		

> Mods: I am placing this in the off-topic board because I do not ascribe to Catholicism as Bible-based Christianity. I am wondering if Catholic members here consider themselves Christians, or something else entirely or possibly something else closely linked.
> 
> Let's peruse and consider the information in the following link: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp


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## Country gal (Apr 3, 2005)

So do other religions have pastors. Why do they have Elders in the church? Why does the Southern Baptist church have a leader that oversees the religion and set doctrine?



			
				EssentialGrowth said:
			
		

> And that's the problem to begin with, there shouldn't be a universal leader (a pope) for the Catholic Church, just like there shouldn't be patriarchs leading the Eastern Orthodox Church. The Bible says The Head of the Congregation should be Jesus Christ, a perfect man, and here Catholics (and other religions) are using an imperfect, fleshly man to lead them (Matthew 23:10).  Talk about contradictions.
> 
> 
> 
> So if the living are those who already received eternal life, what would be the point for Jesus to judge BOTH the living and dead, since the living have already been judged and gained this "eternal ife"??


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## Poohbear (Apr 3, 2005)

sbaker said:
			
		

> Why does the Southern Baptist church have a leader that oversees the religion and set doctrine?


*This is true!  I'm Baptist and the pastor of the church is considered the overseer of the church.  It's in the Bible in the book of Timothy.  Maybe the Pope is the overseer for the Catholics. *


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## Country gal (Apr 3, 2005)

That is his role in the Catholic Church. 



			
				Poohbear said:
			
		

> *This is true!  I'm Baptist and the pastor of the church is considered the overseer of the church.  It's in the Bible in the book of Timothy.  Maybe the Pope is the overseer for the Catholics. *


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## Selene (Apr 3, 2005)

Yeah Poohbear, you got it...for example, you have the National Baptist Convention, where Dr. William J. Shaw presides, the NBC sets policy for a lot of Baptist Churches; you have the AME church where Bishops are the Chief Officers of the Church; its just that the Catholic Church is a little bit more a cohesive unit than many other denominations of Christianity and they have a very visible leader.


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## fine_beauty (Apr 3, 2005)

If we follow the same premise can you provide me with a verse in the bible that SPECIFICALLY states not to ask them(Heb 12: 1 ... the cloud of witnesses) to pray for us. 

In fact where in the bible does it state that the bible is our SOLE determinant of doctrine. 

I don't assume that you have animosity. I welcome question personally. I question all things about my faith. It is helpful but I'm also aware that there are things too deep for me to understand like the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.

I always give the benefit of the doubt and if it is glaring, I post the offending text before bellowing my battle cry  ^_^




			
				Enchantmt said:
			
		

> I'm sorry I thought I was clear. Yes God is the God of the living, however I do not see any scripture where we are instructed to pray to or in the name of anyone other than the Father(God-not earthly or spirtual fathers), the Son (Jesus) or the Holy Spirit. Nor do I see where anyone had physically died and been named an intercessor on behalf of man or listed as having the power to answer prayer, although there are instances of people (those not yet having experienced physical death) praying on behalf of other peope (those not yet having experienced physical death) as Job did for his sons and daughters or as Paul prayed for his disciples, friends and the church. I'm not saying there arent any, but I dont recall any, so if you or anyone has any biblical example can you please post the chapter and verse? Thanx.
> 
> ETA: I dont have any animosity toward this or any other faith, I was just trying to answer the question as to why there is some confusion surrounding this faith and why some would have the idea that it is not Christian and from what I understand it is based on the praying to the saints and to the additional books in the Catholic bible. I could be wrong but that is my understanding of the issue.


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## Country gal (Apr 3, 2005)

blaxalrose said:
			
		

> Yeah Poohbear, you got it...for example, you have the National Baptist Convention, where Dr. William J. Shaw presides, the NBC sets policy for a lot of Baptist Churches; you have the AME church where Bishops are the Chief Officers of the Church; its just that the Catholic Church is a little bit more a cohesive unit than many other denominations of Christianity and they have a very visible leader.



We are also have one of the largest number of followers world wide. So it makes sense to have a leader over top of so many.


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## fine_beauty (Apr 3, 2005)

Well stated, Pebs 

I bow and duff my hat at ya!




			
				pebbles said:
			
		

> I just had a look at that link, and I see why some people are upset. I would ask people to be considerate of the fact that there are many members of the Catholic faith on this forum. Catholics are Christians. There's no question about that. Also, I think it's best to ask any questions you might have, but I don't think that we should post links like this that will cause friction. The purpose of this forum is not to attack Catholocism or it's teachings, but for us to pray and fellowhip together as Christian sisters.


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## Country gal (Apr 3, 2005)

Okay, Finebeauty is here so I am covered. She is better than me at answering questions on our faith.

Love that picture of the pope.


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## DragonPearl (Apr 3, 2005)

*EssentialGrowth*, here are some answers for you.

Regarding praying to dead saints:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

Saint "Worship":
http://www.catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp


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## fine_beauty (Apr 3, 2005)

Well EssentialGrowth, 
I disagree with you and so does Christ Jesus who made Peter the foundation for His Church. I don't suppose you know better than the Master. He even said a servant is greater than his Master. Please read John 21 vs. 15  and Matthew 16:18

Both will perfectly answer your questions. God does not make empty promises!




			
				EssentialGrowth said:
			
		

> And that's the problem to begin with, there shouldn't be a universal leader (a pope) for the Catholic Church, just like there shouldn't be patriarchs leading the Eastern Orthodox Church. The Bible says The Head of the Congregation should be Jesus Christ, a perfect man, and here Catholics (and other religions) are using an imperfect, fleshly man to lead them (Matthew 23:10).  Talk about contradictions.
> 
> 
> 
> So if the living are those who already received eternal life, what would be the point for Jesus to judge BOTH the living and dead, since the living have already been judged and gained this "eternal ife"??


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## SVT (Apr 3, 2005)

pebbles said:
			
		

> I just had a look at that link, and I see why some people are upset. I would ask people to be considerate of the fact that there are many members of the Catholic faith on this forum. Catholics are Christians. There's no question about that. Also, I think it's best to ask any questions you might have, but I don't think that we should post links like this that will cause friction. The purpose of this forum is not to attack Catholocism or it's teachings, but for us to pray and fellowhip together as Christian sisters.



I didn't see this from Pebbles earlier. I think her post puts this discussion to rest. Of course this thread can be reopened later.


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