# SEQUEL:  Can a person who doesn't believe Jesus is God be a Christian?



## Denim And Leather (Apr 26, 2006)

Hello, Ladies

I was lurking in this forum last week, when I saw the thread “Can a person who doesn't believe Jesus is God be a Christian and not believe Jesus is God?"

The resounding answer is *NO*.  Jesus clearly said in the bible that He is God, and if a person doesn’t believe He’s God, then they are rejecting His authority, for all authority has been given to Him (Matthew 28:18).  Christianity either stands or falls on the claims of Christ, and if He claimed to be God, but really isn’t, then everything He said would be a lie; then that means He wasn’t resurrected, and if He wasn’t resurrected, then there is no Second Coming, no resurrection for the dead, and no hope for those of us who have accepted Christ, because that means we are still in our sins and will face eternal damnation, along with those who reject Christ.   

Following Jesus’ teachings is one nice, but it means NOTHING if that person has never truly trusted Christ to save them from their sins, let alone believe He is God.

John 1:1 says about Jesus: _*I*n the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  He was in the beginning with God.  All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.  In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. __ And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not *comprehend it. _(This is from the authrorized King James Version, one of the most accurate translations.)

In John 10:30, Jesus says _“I and My Father are one”._ 

The very reason Jesus was condemned to death by the Pharisees was for the crime of blasphemy: under Jewish law, if a person blasphemed God, this was punishable by death. To say that one is God is blasphemy, which is what Jesus said, because He IS God.

I have seen this said before about Jesus:  that either Jesus was a liar, a lunatic, or who He said He was…the Son of God.

God has always existed, eternally in three persons; Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  God is God the Father, Jesus is God the Son, and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.  NOT manifestations, but Persons.  One God, but three Persons.  

No mere man could ever live a sinless, because we are all born with a sin nature.  Jesus lived a sinless life, because He had no sin nature, because He is God.  Yes, He was fully man, but he is also fully God, and never gave that up while He ministered here on earth.

See, God is holy and pure.  While He is love, and loves us all, He is also just and cannot tolerate sin.  He requires innocent blood to be shed in order to pay for sins, and again, since we are all sinners, we are not qualified to do this. That is why Jesus came down from the heaven, was born of a virgin, and lived among us.  He faced temptation from Satan, but never sinned.  He laid down His life to pay our sin debt, because none of us could ever do it.  In other words, Jesus paid a debt He didn’t owe, because we owed a debt we couldn’t pay.

His death on the cross satisfied God’s requirement for justice.  This analogy might sound familiar, but it bears worth repeating:  if you committed a crime, and faced a judge, if the judge is a fair and impartial judge, He will fine you the $50,000.00 fine or go to jail.  You don’t have the $50,000, but so the judge orders you to jail.  It doesn’t matter if you committed this crime years ago and have been good since; it doesn’t matter how many good works and deeds you have done to make up for the crime, if the judge is an honest judge, he will still make you pay for your crime.  

But if someone you don’t know steps in and pays the $50,000.00, then the judge will say you’re free to go, because your fine has been paid.  That is exactly what Jesus has done for us.  Only One who is God can do this for us and not a MERE MAN.

If you believe this, and want Jesus in your life, then repent, which means to turn away from your sins.  Put your trust in Christ and make Him Lord of your life.  He will give you a new heart with new desires, and will send His Holy Spirit to live in you.  And He will never let you down.  

I will be busy the next couple of days, and won't be replying to this thread.  If any of you have any questions, please feel free to email me:  [email protected].

Have a great night, and God bless you!


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## star (Apr 27, 2006)

AMEN!!

See this thread done to help those with this question:

http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=79811


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## cece22 (Apr 27, 2006)

I am a Christian and I don't believe Jesus is God. And this is due to extensive personal research and not what someone told me. Or what I feel to be true.


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## Poohbear (Apr 27, 2006)

Denim And Leather, Amen!!!  I agree... great post... but why did you have to start it up again?!?!    



			
				cece22 said:
			
		

> I am a Christian and I don't believe Jesus is God. And this is due to extensive personal research and not what someone told me. Or what I feel to be true.


For us Christians who believe Jesus is God, our belief is not based on what someone has told us or what we feel to be true.  The Bible is all the proof and research one needs to see that Jesus was both fully human and fully divine.


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## BlkHoneyLuv2U (Apr 27, 2006)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> Denim And Leather, Amen!!!  I agree... great post... but why did you have to start it up again?!?!
> 
> For us Christians who believe Jesus is God, our belief is not based on what someone has told us or what we feel to be true.  The Bible is all the proof and research one needs to see that Jesus was both fully human and fully divine.


I T-Totally agree 100% and then some


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## Denim And Leather (Apr 27, 2006)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> Denim And Leather, Amen!!! I agree... great post... but why did you have to start it up again?!?!


 
Sorry, I didn't mean to start it up again.  I felt compelled to make this thread.  I hope this doesn't turn out to be a waste. erplexed 



> For us Christians who believe Jesus is God, our belief is not based on what someone has told us or what we feel to be true. The Bible is all the proof and research one needs to see that Jesus was both fully human and fully divine.


 
Not only that, but the Holy Spirit also bears witness to our spirit of the truth about Christ.


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## Denim And Leather (Apr 27, 2006)

cece22 said:
			
		

> I am a Christian and I don't believe Jesus is God. And this is due to extensive personal research and not what someone told me. Or what I feel to be true.


 
Just because you feel a certain way doesn't mean you're right.  What God says in His Word is what we need to listen to, because He's never been wrong.  

Sometimes our feelings can be misleading.


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## EbonyEyes (Apr 28, 2006)

Denim And Leather said:
			
		

> Not only that, but the Holy Spirit also bears witness to our spirit of the truth about Christ.



This is so true!  I'm reading this book by Joyce Meyer called "How to Hear From God".  I also have the study guide that accompanies the reading.  My goodness, this woman has you going through the scriptures and writing down what the scriptures mean to you.  

It's like she's saying "Don't trust what I say.  Trust what God's word says.  Look it up and pray about it!"

As I'm getting closer to God and reading His Word more deeply, I'm starting to feel that peace that the Holy Spirit gives me more and more.  

It's the same peace that I felt when I asked God to reveal to me whether his Son was God.

I think it's essential that when you are searching for an answer, don't just look up the scripture.  Pray as well!


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## Crackers Phinn (Apr 28, 2006)

See here is the thing.  I believe God is God and Jesus is the son of God.  Considering that there was an entire OLD TESTAMENT that didn't include or mention Jesus, BUT GOD WAS IN IT, I'd say I came to a logical conclusion.

So pity me for being less Christian than thou, if you will, but I'm cool with what I believe.


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## EbonyEyes (Apr 28, 2006)

JCoily said:
			
		

> See here is the thing.  I believe God is God and Jesus is the son of God.  Considering that there was an entire OLD TESTAMENT that didn't include or mention Jesus, BUT GOD WAS IN IT, I'd say I came to a logical conclusion.
> 
> So pity me for being less Christian than thou, if you will, but I'm cool with what I believe.



Jesus was mentioned in the Old Testament (Read Isaiah for instance) so many times, it's not even funny.  

Some of those who believe in Christophany believe that Jesus made countless appearances in the Old Testament.


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## EbonyEyes (Apr 28, 2006)

Okay here goes:

First of all, Jesus existed from the very beginning like our Father existed in the beginning:

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word is Jesus Christ. 

In fact, he was the one who created the universe. (Genesis 1:1)

John 1:3 - All things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made.

John 1:10 - He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Colossians 1:14-16 - In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins; Who is the image of the _invisible God_, the firstborn of every creature.  For by him were all things created that are in heaven and that are in earth....

Now, it says in quite a few scriptures that NO man has seen God the Father at anytime.

John 1:18 - No man hath seen God at any time.

John 6:46 (the words of Christ) - Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the father.

1 Timothy 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:  Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

So if NO man has seen the Father, then who were Moses, Joshua, Abraham and many others seeing and speaking with face-to-face?  

Jesus Christ possibly!

The Lord says in Numbers 12:6-8 --  hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.  My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.  With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

Read Genesis 32:24-30.  Jacob wrestled with a *man* in verse 24.  Later in the passage, Jacob asked for the man's name.  The man then asks him "Why do you ask for my name" and the man *blesses* him.  Then Jacob names the place Peniel bcause he saw God *face-to-face* and his life was spared.

The man Jacob wrestled could have been Jesus.  Some may argue that the man was just a _manifestation_ of God in the form of a man, NOT Jesus Christ.

Look at the next passage.

Joshua 5:13-15 -- And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?  And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did *worship*, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?  And the captain of the LORD's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

Notice in this passage that this *man*, the captain of the host of the Lord, *allowed* Joshua to bow down and worship.

Contrast this to Acts 10:25-26 where Cornelius bowed down at Peter's feet to worship.  Peter said "Stand up; I myself also am a man".

Also contrast the passage with Revelation 22:8-9 where John bowed down at an angel's feet to worship and the angel tells him not to do that.  He tells him to *worship God*.

If this man that appeared to Joshua was just a manifestation of God in human form, then why did the manifestation call himself "The captain of the host of the Lord?"

Some food for thought.


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## michc (Apr 28, 2006)

> See here is the thing. I believe God is God and Jesus is the son of God. Considering that there was an entire OLD TESTAMENT that didn't include or mention Jesus, BUT GOD WAS IN IT, I'd say I came to a logical conclusion.
> 
> So pity me for being less Christian than thou, if you will, *but I'm cool with what I believe*



Yes, but you have to ask yourself is *God* 'cool' with what you believe?

I'm not trying to start anything (JCoily ), but I'm just saying like Denim and Leather pointed out that the Holy Spirit bears witness to our Spirit about Christ and who He is.


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## mkh_77 (Apr 28, 2006)

This constant "Us vs. Them" mentality is disgusting and this thread was created to further that mentality.  Shameful.


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## JuJuBoo (Apr 28, 2006)

mkh_77 said:
			
		

> This constant "Us vs. Them" mentality is disgusting and this thread was created to further that mentality.  Shameful.



I don't see anything shameful about this thread. Has this topic been discussed before? yes. But I don't see anyone trying to further a "mentality"--they're having a discussion and using Scripture to support. Nothing shameful about that.


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## comike (Apr 28, 2006)

cece22 said:
			
		

> I am a Christian and I don't believe Jesus is God. And this is due to extensive personal research and not what someone told me. Or what I feel to be true.


Excuse me but how can you call yourself a CHRISTian if you don't believe in Jesus the Christ?  That's like me calling myself a Buddhist and I don't believe in Buddha.  Christianity itself is based on the belief of Jesus the Christ.

Peace.


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## comike (Apr 28, 2006)

Your comment about Jesus not being mentioned in the Old Testament is incorrect.  Please take the time to sit down and read the Old Testament.  Jesus' coming is prophesied throughout the Old Testament.  

Peace.


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## comike (Apr 28, 2006)

cece22 said:
			
		

> I am a Christian and I don't believe Jesus is God. And this is due to extensive personal research and not what someone told me. Or what I feel to be true.


My only comment to that is for you to earnestly seek His presence and you will find Him.  If you really and truly want to know that He is real and if you seek His presence with all of your heart and soul, He will reveal Himself to you and no books, no TV show, no human being can ever disprove what you have witnessed for yourself.


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## comike (Apr 28, 2006)

JCoily said:
			
		

> See here is the thing.  I believe God is God and Jesus is the son of God.  Considering that there was an entire OLD TESTAMENT that didn't include or mention Jesus, BUT GOD WAS IN IT, I'd say I came to a logical conclusion.
> 
> So pity me for being less Christian than thou, if you will, but I'm cool with what I believe.


Your comment about Jesus not being mentioned in the Old Testament is incorrect. Please take the time to sit down and read the Old Testament. Jesus' coming is prophesied throughout the Old Testament. 

Peace.


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## Crackers Phinn (Apr 28, 2006)

EbonyEyes said:
			
		

> Okay here goes:
> 
> First of all, Jesus existed from the very beginning like our Father existed in the beginning:
> 
> ...



I have read and reread what you wrote. I have also let a couple of hours go by before responding so that I could say what I have to say without being heated.

Here goes:  You quote scripture that doesn't mention Jesus by name and then give commentary telling me *your interpretation *means that scripture is talking about Jesus.  

You say that "The Word" = Jesus. I say "The Word" = God. I read it literally, you read it figuratively.  Christ said he was the Son of God. Maybe my altzheimers is setting in but I don't recall him specifically saying that he was God, not even after the resurrection. I also believe in the Holy Trinity, which I admit is an interpretation as opposed to literal translation, but it appeals to my sense of logic.

It seems this becomes an issue of whose interpretation is the correct one. 
If we worship the same God, why does it matter?


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## Crackers Phinn (Apr 28, 2006)

michc said:
			
		

> Yes, but you have to ask yourself is *God* 'cool' with what you believe?
> 
> I'm not trying to start anything (JCoily ), but I'm just saying like Denim and Leather pointed out that the Holy Spirit bears witness to our Spirit about Christ and who He is.



No worries, it's all love up in here!

I do feel like I have a very strong connection with the Lord. I pray in Jesus  Christs name, but I do not pray to Jesus.  I don't want to misquote scripture (I don't believe I'm doing so) but Christ said that you come to the Father through him - not that he was the Father.  The way I see it, my form of prayer is consistent with going through the son to reach the father.

ETA -rephrase the last sentence.


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## Plenty (Apr 28, 2006)

JCoily said:
			
		

> No worries, it's all love up in here!
> 
> I do feel like I have a very strong connection with the Lord. I pray in Jesus  Christs name, but I do not pray to Jesus.  I don't want to misquote scripture (I don't believe I'm doing so) but Christ said that you come to the Father through him - not that he was the Father.  The way I see it, I'm just doing what he said to do.


This is pretty much the same understanding I got. I never heard of people believing Jesus was God.


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## Crackers Phinn (Apr 28, 2006)

mkh_77 said:
			
		

> This constant "Us vs. Them" mentality is disgusting and this thread was created to further that mentality.  Shameful.



I completely agree.


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## Crackers Phinn (Apr 28, 2006)

comike said:
			
		

> Your comment about Jesus not being mentioned in the Old Testament is incorrect. Please take the time to sit down and read the Old Testament. Jesus' coming is prophesied throughout the Old Testament.
> 
> Peace.



I went to a bonafide fire and brimstone baptist church 5 days a week from the time I was 5 until I was 18. I have read the Old Testament along with the New Testament backwards, forwards, sideways and upside down. 

I know that if you read the Old Testament literally, Jesus is not mentioned.  If you choose to interpret scripture, then you can say one of several unnamed 'people' or 'angels' *could be* him.


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## michc (Apr 28, 2006)

> This constant "Us vs. Them" mentality is disgusting and this thread was created to further that mentality. Shameful.



Sorry that it comes across as that, I personally don't intend for it to. It's good to discuss things, give opinions and share beliefs and sometimes things get a bit heated, but like JCoily said it's all love in here


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## mkh_77 (Apr 28, 2006)

JuJuBoo said:
			
		

> I don't see anything shameful about this thread. Has this topic been discussed before? yes. But I don't see anyone trying to further a "mentality"--they're having a discussion and using Scripture to support. Nothing shameful about that.



I didn't post that this thread is shameful, but the mentality it perpetuates is.  And, the initial post was not made to spark "discussion", it was made to show all of those who don't believe Jesus is God that they are wrong.



			
				Denim and Leather said:
			
		

> I was lurking in this forum last week, when I saw the thread “Can a person who doesn't believe Jesus is God be a Christian and not believe Jesus is God?" . . . The resounding answer is NO.



Discussion starter?  I think not.

And on the matter of using verses to further a point, once again:  





			
				mkh_77 said:
			
		

> "Do not cling to me," said Jesus, "for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers, and tell them that I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." John 20:17
> 
> I still believe that Jesus, in his human form, was a manifestation of God on Earth, but he was not God while he walked the Earth; he was just a man as evidenced by the verse above where he makes a distinction between himself and God.
> 
> So, yes, someone who doesn't believe that Jesus was God can be a Christian.



Jesus didn't say that he was going to ascend to himself and he made a distinction between himself and God.

Why can't we just agree to disagree without putting the other person down or trying to make them feel like less of a Christian/person?


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## Bublnbrnsuga (Apr 28, 2006)

mkh_77 said:
			
		

> This constant "Us vs. Them" mentality is disgusting and this thread was created to further that mentality.  Shameful.




Just because people are expressing the Truth doesn't mean it's US vs THEM.  I really don't get it- maybe I could see what you are saying if people were being mean and hateful,but that's not the case at ALL. 
Do you say this whenever someone tries to steer someone else in the right direction? Do you comment like this in other forums here when one person doesn't agree with the other? If no, why not?


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## BlkHoneyLuv2U (Apr 28, 2006)

JCoily said:
			
		

> I have read and reread what you wrote. I have also let a couple of hours go by before responding so that I could say what I have to say without being heated.
> 
> Here goes: You quote scripture that doesn't mention Jesus by name and then give commentary telling me *your interpretation *means that scripture is talking about Jesus.
> 
> ...


 
In that same chapter, if you read a bit further, the scripture says *"And the word became flesh and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the father) full of grace and truth" *Me personally know what I know and it took the grace of God to reveal who Jesus was to me. Every one will know when it is their time to know. Before that time, it is fruitless to debate who Jesus is to those that havent received revelation.


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## mkh_77 (Apr 28, 2006)

Bublnbrnsuga said:
			
		

> Just because people are expressing the Truth doesn't mean it's US vs THEM.  I really don't get it- maybe I could see what you are saying if people were being mean and hateful,but that's not the case at ALL.
> Do you say this whenever someone tries to steer someone else in the right direction? Do you comment like this in other forums here when one person doesn't agree with the other? If no, why not?



It's THEIR truth/interpretation, and that's what I have a problem with.  Since when do certain people get to decide if I am a Christian or not based on what they believe?  That does not sit well with me now, and it won't in the future.  The whole point of accepting Jesus as your PERSONAL Lord and Savior is that you don't have to prove anything to anyone else because Jesus knows your heart and you are in direct communication with Him whenever you choose or whenever He chooses.  

There is a very clear and present "Us vs. Them" mentality in this particular forum.  I've witnessed it time and time again.  And, it seems to me that some posts are written in a mean way, yet cloaked in "Christian love".  Others have agreed with me, but even if they didn't, I would still stand by this claim.  Prime example: 





			
				laydee36330 said:
			
		

> Me personally know what I know and it took the grace of God to reveal who Jesus was to me. Every one will know when it is their time to know. Before that time, it is fruitless to debate who Jesus is to those that havent received revelation.


  Why write this?  Is that REALLY necessary?  The only point in posting something like this is to make that receiver feel LESS of what they claim to be because you have/know something you think they don't have/know.  THIS is the mentality I am writing about.  This is what is shameful to me.  This is what I think is disgusting.  This is what God teaches AGAINST!  Why create so much separation?!

The few times I've posted where there was a disagreement, I've relied on facts to bolster whatever my stance may have been, just like I've done in this particular thread with the verse I provided.

In the thread regarding a minister having a $2K watch I posted my experiences, observations, and published articles to support my feelings about Creflo Dollar, but not once did I say that those who choose to follow him are wrong.  I just said I think the man is a crook and gave support as to why.  Their truth in regards to this particular minister are simply not my truths, but I am not going to say that they aren't Christians because they believe and support a prosperity ministry whereas I don't.


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## Crackers Phinn (Apr 28, 2006)

Bublnbrnsuga said:
			
		

> Just because people are expressing the Truth doesn't mean it's US vs THEM.  I really don't get it- maybe I could see what you are saying if people were being mean and hateful,but that's not the case at ALL.
> Do you say this whenever someone tries to steer someone else in the right direction? Do you comment like this in other forums here when one person doesn't agree with the other? If no, why not?



I know this wasn't addressed to me but I thought I would take a shot at answering.

The reason that this thread can (is) construed as Us vs Them is that the OP comes straight out and says 'If you don't believe what her interpretation of the bible is then you're not a Christian." 

That is not the truth. That is not steering anyone in the right direction.  That is highly presumptuous and prideful.  

To tell the truth, I find it highly disturbing that people who feel they are Christians would support someone telling people that they are not.  What happens,   if you disagree with some other point that Denim and Leather makes and she says YOU aren't a Christian for having a different interpretation than she - is she still correct?  

I'm just saying.....


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## Crackers Phinn (Apr 28, 2006)

ladydee36330 said:
			
		

> In that same chapter, if you read a bit further, the scripture says *"And the word became flesh and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the father) full of grace and truth" *Me personally know what I know and it took the grace of God to reveal who Jesus was to me. Every one will know when it is their time to know. Before that time, *it is fruitless to debate who Jesus is to those that havent received revelation*.



It's amazing what I find out about myself. 

1. I'm not a Christian because I don't interpret the bible as people who did not write the bible say I should.

2. I haven't received revelation because Ladydee 'knows what she knows'. 

This concludes my visit to the Christian forum.


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## GodMadeMePretty (Apr 29, 2006)

As JCoily exits the Christianity forum, I make my first appearance.

No person currently on this earth can say that another person is not/was not a Christian.  Only God can decide that.  You can "believe" what you like about another person's salvation, but thankfully, not one person on this earth will be the determining judge of who actually has God's salvation.  NO ONE!!


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## BlkHoneyLuv2U (Apr 29, 2006)

GodMadeMePretty said:
			
		

> As JCoily exits the Christianity forum, I make my first appearance.
> 
> No person currently on this earth can say that another person is not/was not a Christian.  Only God can decide that.  You can "believe" what you like about another person's salvation, but thankfully, not one person on this earth will be the determining judge of who actually has God's salvation.  NO ONE!!


And on that note, let the church say AAAAMAN


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## Poohbear (Apr 29, 2006)

GodMadeMePretty said:
			
		

> No person currently on this earth can say that another person is not/was not a Christian. Only God can decide that. You can "believe" what you like about another person's salvation, but thankfully, not one person on this earth will be the determining judge of who actually has God's salvation. NO ONE!!


This is so true.


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## Poohbear (Apr 29, 2006)

ladydee36330 said:
			
		

> In that same chapter, if you read a bit further, the scripture says *"And the word became flesh and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the father) full of grace and truth" *Me personally know what I know and it took the grace of God to reveal who Jesus was to me. Every one will know when it is their time to know. Before that time, it is fruitless to debate who Jesus is to those that havent received revelation.


Ladydee, if you feel that you are right, explain it to her.  Don't just end it off with her by saying it is a fruitless debate and saying that she hasn't received revelation.  No one is righteous, not even one...

Anyway JCoily, when ladydee mentioned this scripture where it says "the word became flesh" it is talking about the transformation of Jesus, in other words, God becoming human... When Jesus came into this world, He was God in human form to dwell among us, to give us an example of a perfect sinless person.  Jesus was the glory of God.  When people mention how Jesus was both fully human and fully divine, he was fully human because he was an actual human with flesh and blood, he was fully divine because he was of God's essence... perfect and sinless.

It is very confusing.... Let me go find my picture that I posted in that other forum.

Besides that, I really dont see how this thread is a sequel... I think that other thread was sufficient enough. But maybe it will help others understand the concept of Trinity rather than pointing fingers as to who is Christian and who's not a Christian.


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## Poohbear (Apr 29, 2006)

JCoily said:
			
		

> You say that "The Word" = Jesus. I say "The Word" = God. I read it literally, you read it figuratively.


 
I know you were responding to EbonyEyes but I have a question for you...read carefully, what I just typed may get confusing.  

John 1:1 says "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

You said that "The Word = God"... if you are reading it literally, how can that be?  I'm just trying to understand how you interpreted it...

For example, let's replace "the Word" with "God" in that verse...

"In the beginning was 'God' and 'God' was with God and 'God' was God"... that doesn't make sense. 

Do you see what I'm saying.  If not, please let me know how you interpreted this verse.


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## Poohbear (Apr 29, 2006)

Here you go ladies! I found the diagram that explains the concept of Trinity... a nice visual:







What Trinity is NOT:
3-in-1 does NOT mean that God (Father), Jesus (Son), & Holy Spirit are the same
They are NOT the same
They are NOT 3 separate gods either

What Trinity IS:
*The unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead according to Christian dogma
*The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit one in essence (in nature)
*Jesus and the Holy Spirit work together in Christians in order for us to have a relationship and constant communication with God

John 1:1-18 is a great scripture in the Bible to support the concept of Trinity.

Check out this nice website to help you out more about Trinity, especially Part 05: http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/trinity.htm


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## Poohbear (Apr 29, 2006)

And about salvation... I'm no expert but here's just a few verses on salvation...

Salvation's Freeway:

1. Romans 3:23 - Everyone has sinned
2. Romans 6:23 - The penalty for our sin is death
3. Romans 5:8 - Jesus Christ died for sin
4. Romans 10:8-10 - To be forgiven for our sin, we must believe and confess that Jesus is Lord. Salvation comes through Jesus Christ

If one has done that last step, he/she has salvation through Jesus Christ.

But if he/she continues in his/her sin and is unrepentant (meaning they do not ask for forgiveness nor turn away from sin), his/her salvation is questioned... but we as humans are not the ones to question or judge one's salvation, only God can.

Hope that helps some.


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## BerrySweet (Apr 29, 2006)

Excellent explanations Pooh!  Very enlightening-you should be a Sunday school teacher (if you're not already).  Explanations like those help to bring people closer to the word because it is explained in a non-judgemental, non-condsecending and educational way.  Beatuiful-even I learned something!


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## Poohbear (Apr 29, 2006)

No problem BerrySweet.  By the way, I am a Sunday school teacher at my church.


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## cece22 (May 1, 2006)

comike said:
			
		

> Excuse me but how can you call yourself a CHRISTian if you don't believe in Jesus the Christ? That's like me calling myself a Buddhist and I don't believe in Buddha. Christianity itself is based on the belief of Jesus the Christ.
> 
> Peace.


 
And where did I state that I don't believe in Christ? a Christian is a follower of Christ right? So I am a full breed Christian and I don't knock beliefs all things are truth in Christ. My research comes directly from the Bible and I speak of Christ to people on a personal level. I don't want to bomard this thread with masses of research that lead me to my conclusion.  John 8:32 "and you will no the truth and the truth will set you free."

So if Jesus is God wouldn't he know all things?


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## EbonyEyes (May 1, 2006)

cece22 said:
			
		

> And where did I state that I don't believe in Christ? a Christian is a follower of Christ right? So I am a full breed Christian and I don't knock beliefs all things are truth in Christ. My research comes directly from the Bible and I speak of Christ to people on a personal level. I don't want to bomard this thread with masses of research that lead me to my conclusion.  John 8:32 "and you will no the truth and the truth will set you free."
> 
> So if Jesus is God wouldn't he know all things?



So you believe that 
1) Jesus was sent by God to die for our sins?
2) Jesus was the promised messiah?
3) Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life?
4) Jesus is your personal Lord and Savior?

If so, then alrighty!!!


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## cece22 (May 1, 2006)

EbonyEyes said:
			
		

> So you believe that
> 1) Jesus was sent by God to die for our sins?
> 2) Jesus was the promised messiah?
> 3) Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life?
> ...


 
I see someone stated that somehow I don't believe in Christ just had to clear that up. I believe all 4 of these and so much more about the Christ believing is one thing following is another cause as the Apostle James of old said "faith without works is dead" James 2:22. 

Enough said about me back to the original thread "Can a person who doesn't believe Jesus is God be a Christian?" 

And again my answer is yes.


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## Poohbear (May 1, 2006)

cece22 said:
			
		

> So if Jesus is God wouldn't he know all things?


Yes!  He does, doesn't He?  As Christians, He lives within our hearts and walks with us daily.  He knows every single thing we do... just like God our Heavenly Father who watches over us all.


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## Poohbear (May 1, 2006)

As for the original question of this thread: "Can a person who doesn't believe Jesus is God be a Christian?" I still don't have an answer... I don't believe anyone can really give an answer to that question.  All I know that in order to be a Christian, you must confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is the Son of God, Lord and Savior of your life.  And you must pick up the cross and follow Him daily.  Certain beliefs that raise controversial issues or disagreements are subjective and can't really be a basis as to whether you are a Christian or not.  We are all at a certain level when it comes to Biblical knowledge and revelation.  We can't go around judging people's salvation based on these certain beliefs like trinity, whether women should be preachers, homosexuality, and all these other issues that raise questions with people.  We just need to focus on living a life according to God's purpose and be imitators of Christ as much as possible.  Read your bible (listen and do what it says), pray, attend church, fellowship with Christians, and be blessed!


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## cece22 (May 1, 2006)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> Yes! He does, doesn't He? As Christians, He lives within our hearts and walks with us daily. He knows every single thing we do... just like God our Heavenly Father who watches over us all.


 
 
At Mathew 24:36 NRS "But about that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son but only the Father." 

So how is that the Father who is God Almighty knows things that the Christ who is the Son does not? If therefore Christ knows all things why is he ommited from knowing what the Father knows in the Scripture?


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## Bublnbrnsuga (May 1, 2006)

I came across this question in my study of this subject:

Question:  "Is Jesus God? Did Jesus ever claim to be God?"



Answer:  Jesus is never recorded in the Bible as saying the exact words, “I am God.” That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” At first glance, this might not seem to be a claim to be God. However, look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement, “We are not stoning you for any of these, replied the Jews, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). The Jews understood Jesus’ statement to be a claim to be God. In the following verses, Jesus never corrects the Jews by saying, “I did not claim to be God.” That indicates Jesus was truly saying He was God by declaring, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!" Again, in response, the Jews take up stones in an attempt to stone Jesus (John 8:59). Why would the Jews want to stone Jesus if He hadn’t said something they believed to be blasphemous, namely, a claim to be God?



John 1:1 says that “the Word was God.” John 1:14 says that “the Word became flesh.” This clearly indicates that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, "...Be shepherds of the church of God, which He bought with His own blood." Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. Acts 20:28 declares that God purchased the church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!



Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior - Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, "But about the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom."



In Revelation, an angel instructed the Apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9,17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation had. There are many other verses and passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus’ deity.



The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected - proving His victory over sin and death.

gotanswers.org


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## Poohbear (May 10, 2006)

Bublnbrnsuga said:
			
		

> The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected - proving His victory over sin and death.


You hit the nail on the head!


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## Honey (May 10, 2006)

I am a little unclear with how the 2 scriptures you cited lead you to conclude that Jesus and God are the same.  Those scriptures read as follows:

1 John 2:2 - And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.  (KJV)

To propitiate simply means to atone or reconcile for sin or wrongdoing.  Adam and Eve were perfect humans, what was needed to reconcile their sins was another perfect human – Jesus in fleshy form.

2 Corinthians 5:21 - For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.  (KJV)

Again, this scripture points to Jesus being without sin and that it’s only by means of his sacrificing his life that we can be made righteous before God.

The scripture that is most commonly used to support the idea that Jesus and God are the same is John 1:1.  However, depending on the bible translation your may be using this scripture is translated as - 

… the word was God (KJV)
… and what God was, the word was (New English Bible)
… the logos (Greek word generally translated word) was divine (Moffat)

The link below further explains John 1:1 – I won’t even try to paraphrase it as I know I won’t do it justice.



http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=247

~Honey


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## comike (May 10, 2006)

Maybe I misunderstood your statement here.  You seem to be implying that you are a Christian but you don't believe in Jesus.  Meaning believing that He is the Christ.  Throughout the NT, Jesus told spoke of who He is:

In Matthew 12:6, Jesus says to the Pharisees, "I say to you, that something greater than the Temple is here." How much greater? Look at verse 8. Referring to Himself, Jesus asserts, "The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath." How can anyone be Lord of the Sabbath except God who instituted it? This is a direct claim to deity.

In Matthew 23:37, Jesus speaks as though He has personally observed the whole history of Jerusalem:

0 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

In Mark 2:1,2, Jesus tells a paralyzed man, "My son, your sins are forgiven." Some scribes sitting there caught the obvious intent of Jesus' words and reasoned:

Why does this man speak in this way? Is he blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?

Jesus challenged them:

Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, "Your sins are forgiven"; or to say, "Arise, and take up your pallet and walk"? But in order that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins ...

And then Jesus healed the paralytic. The implication was obvious. No one forgives sin but God. Anyone could say he is able to forgive sin; but Jesus proved He had the authority to forgive sin when He healed the paralytic. Jesus was clearly claiming deity for Himself.

Back again in Matthew, at the end of the Sermon on the Mount (7:21-23), Jesus speaks of Himself as the ultimate judge who will have authority to deny entrance into the kingdom of heaven.


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## Honey (May 11, 2006)

Comike, I am not sure if your comment is directed to me, however I’ll respond.  I am a Christian and believe that Jesus is the Christ or Messiah.  However, I do not equate Jesus being the Christ as him being equal to God (I don’t believe in the Trinity).  My personal study of the bible and a couple of college religion classes has lead me to this conclusion.

In reference to the scripture you cite at Matt 12:6, my interpretation is different based upon the context of verses 1-8.  Here, Jesus is being condemned for threshing wheat (or working) on the Sabbath – something that the Law condemns.  He goes on to show other examples where people have violated the law and specifically mentions priests in the temple who desecrate the Sabbath and yet are not guilty.  To me, these verses are about Jesus being greater than what the temple and the Sabbath represent – he’s the fulfillment of the Law covenant.

I’m also interpreting Matt 23:37 and Mark 2:5 differently than you are.  Jesus could easily speak about Jerusalem’s history for two reasons:  (1) he was a Jew and was instructed in the temple in accord with the Law and (2) going back to John 1:1, it says “in the beginning the Word was,” mean Jesus dwelt in heaven with God prior to coming to earth.  He was the first of God’s creations and as such could witness their history.  It is also because Jesus is the Word, that he has the authority to tell the paralyzed men that their sins were forgiven.  The article in the prior post explains that Jesus being the Word or Logos means he is God’s mouthpiece, representative, or agent.  That he acts on God’s behalf and in accord with his will.

Matt 7:21-says:  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.  

Again, we have different interpretations of this scripture.  I do not see this as Jesus equating himself to God or stating that he is the ultimate judge.  My understanding is that he’s asking on God’s behalf – God is the ultimate judge, Jesus is the mediator.

~Honey


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## cece22 (May 11, 2006)

Honey said:
			
		

> Comike, I am not sure if your comment is directed to me, however I’ll respond. I am a Christian and believe that Jesus is the Christ or Messiah. However, I do not equate Jesus being the Christ as him being equal to God (I don’t believe in the Trinity). My personal study of the bible and a couple of college religion classes has lead me to this conclusion.
> 
> In reference to the scripture you cite at Matt 12:6, my interpretation is different based upon the context of verses 1-8. Here, Jesus is being condemned for threshing wheat (or working) on the Sabbath – something that the Law condemns. He goes on to show other examples where people have violated the law and specifically mentions priests in the temple who desecrate the Sabbath and yet are not guilty. To me, these verses are about Jesus being greater than what the temple and the Sabbath represent – he’s the fulfillment of the Law covenant.
> 
> ...


 
Wow Honey you really know your stuff your comments were very refreshing. Not to piggyback your comments. I just wanted to mention the scripture that eludes to Jesus being the first born of all creation which gives further food for thought about the discussion at hand. Here it mentions the ransom which was needed for the imperfect first man who sinned which was Adam. Only a person without sin could be the ransomer which was Jesus who was sent by his father. Jesus paid the ransom by shedding his innocent blood so we can be forgiven of our sins. 

At Colossians 1 verse 15 it states that he is the firstborn of all creation now we all know that God was not created but rather he is the creator. Here Jesus is said to have been created how can he be the creator (Jehovah). And the one whom was first to be created. God created Jesus first then everything came after him. Jesus is God's son and they are not the same person.

1 Colossians 1:13-17
He delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love, *14* by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. *15* *He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation*; *16* because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. *17* 

Proverbs 8:22-31  Is Jesus desribing his own creation? check it in the different translations of the Bible this scripture. Jesus was created it decribes how he was with God when he created everything including himself. How can he be God and be with God. Wouldn't he just be saying I created all things?

Proverbs 8:22- 31

22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.


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## Honey (May 12, 2006)

Thanks, Cece22.  I know that this can be a very controversial/sensitve subject for a lot of people, so I just want to emphasize that this is MY INTERPRETATION of the bible.  However, I can also respect and appreciate what other people may believe.

~Honey


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