# MY PASTOR IS LOSING IT!!



## ladyofvirtue (Dec 8, 2008)

Here we go again:

While preaching yesterday, our pastor said,"when I was young, the old men used to tell us youngins that the only thing old they wanted was old Grand Dad, the only thing fat they wanted was a wad of money and the only thing black they wanted was a Cadillac."  He also mentioned AGAIN that when he see's a woman with a tight tee shirt on, he does what any other normal, heterosexual man would do and that it look, his wife chuckled right along with him.  A few men chucked, but you could feel the uneasiness throughout our congregation.

DH was angry and said that it was tasteless and should not be coming from a man of God.  He wants to meet with him privately and tell him so.  I don't see the point.  Several members have already told him to basically, stop using such course talk.  

DH says we will be looking for a new church home.


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## chellero (Dec 8, 2008)

I think that I'd want to look for a new church home too.  But pray on it and see what God says.


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## PaperClip (Dec 8, 2008)

Well for one, I'm glad that your husband wants to at least speak with the pastor to explain why you all are planning on leaving instead of the punk move of just walking away without explanation.


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## HeChangedMyName (Dec 8, 2008)

Wow.  That is  a bit too much information.  Was he at least using it to demostrate a point in the Bible?  I dunno.  I left a church once for similar reasons.  It's good that you have a man of God as your husband who wants to make sure you all are worshipping in a proper place.


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## Pat Mahurr (Dec 8, 2008)

What was his point?  Was he trying to illustrate the ignorance of youth, as in "when I was a child, I spake as a child. . ." or WHAT?  

I'm just trying to figure out the relevance/context.


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## ladyofvirtue (Dec 8, 2008)

Pat Mahurr said:


> What was his point? Was he trying to illustrate the ignorance of youth, as in "when I was a child, I spake as a child. . ." or WHAT?
> 
> I'm just trying to figure out the relevance/context.


 
He always makes these points to infer how "real" men act.erplexed

He interjects into his sermons how women find him attractive.

Once at Bible Class, he told us that while at the bank that day, the vice president spoke to him and invited him into her office.  She was clearly interested in getting to know him (even though he wears a huge wedding band on his ring finger).

After chit-chatting for awhile with her, he left.  I told him when she first showed interest in him, he should've did like Joseph did Potifer's wife and ran.

In the past, he provided pre-marital counseling to a couple.  She was  a member, he wasn't.  Pastor ended up counseling just the lady, and they got real "cozy" with each other.  It was an embarrassing (sp?) and heartbreaking experience for our membership.  We lost many congregants because of it.


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## chellero (Dec 8, 2008)

ladyofvirtue said:


> He always makes these points to infer how "real" men act.erplexed
> 
> He interjects into his sermons how women find him attractive.
> 
> ...



The bolded is one of the reasons that I firmly against opposite sex counseling.  If you need to discuss you emotions or your relationship with another person and your spouse won't be in the room then you need an a counselor of the same sex PERIOD.  Otherwise you will likely form an unhealthy attachment to that person and if the counselor is immoral then the situation will be even worse.


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## Ms.Honey (Dec 8, 2008)

chellero said:


> The bolded is one of the reasons that I firmly against opposite sex counseling. If you need to discuss you emotions or your relationship with another person and your spouse won't be in the room then you need an a counselor of the same sex PERIOD. Otherwise you will likely form an unhealthy attachment to that person and if the counselor is immoral then the situation will be even worse.


 
We have counsel teams. I don't think anyone gets counseling from one person. Maybe a man can counsel a man alone or a woman may counsel a woman alone but we can never have someone counsel the opposite sex alone. Not even an appearance of evil.


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## jeanne516 (Dec 10, 2008)

I think you two need to find a new church home...but like another poster said, pray on it first..


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## MissMeWithThatIsh (Dec 11, 2008)

I went to Dh's uncle's church... and the pastor made a comment like:

"Every man struggles with wanting to have sex with someone outside their marriage and other than his wife... and if a man tells me he doesn't have that problem, he's lying or homosexual HAHAHA!"

I said WHATEVER! and got up and walked out and prayed for a good 10 minutes to "calm" down. I was a guest and did not care if I offended anyone. When I came back in, DH's aunt told me not to let that man run me out of church with his crazy talk... just to get the word and keep it moving. 

I just hated how the subliminal message seemed to say all men will or should ALWAYS have this issue.. and there's no such thing as true deliverance... because it's in a man's  nature. . . and that women should accept such disrespect to the marriage bed, because men cannot help it... while women are either seductive or pure and understanding.... 

I almost felt bad for popping up like that. I'm glad to see I'm not alone. I was SO turned off I walked right out the church, and had a foul mood the rest of the day and didn't look back.


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## saved06 (Dec 12, 2008)

ladyofvirtue said:


> Here we go again:
> 
> While preaching yesterday, our pastor said,"when I was young, the old men used to tell us youngins that the only thing old they wanted was old Grand Dad, the only thing fat they wanted was a wad of money and the only thing black they wanted was a Cadillac." He also mentioned AGAIN that when he see's a woman with a tight tee shirt on, he does what any other normal, heterosexual man would do and that it look, his wife chuckled right along with him. A few men chucked, but you could feel the uneasiness throughout our congregation.
> 
> ...


 
Wow...why are we going through the EXACT same thing. We (my SO and I) just spoke with our pastor out of love and asked him to be cautious because new members may be offended. But we really get the point in what he is saying.


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## PaperClip (Dec 12, 2008)

saved06 said:


> Wow...why are we going through the EXACT same thing. We (my SO and I) just spoke with our pastor out of love and asked him to be cautious because new members may be offended. But we really get the point in what he is saying.


 
Wow... really? Hmmm....

Did you and your SO talk to your pastor's boss (THE LORD) about your pastor's conduct? You all's approach seems a bit out of order....

Prayer might have produced one or a combination of the following outcomes.

1. the Lord would have kindly instructed you to stay out of His business and He would deal with the pastor in His own space/time.

2. the Lord would have given you the words to say to your pastor if He wanted you to even do that.

3. the Lord would have given you some insight about who/what is an actual offense or actual INSTRUCTION from the Lord and the pastor was being obedient to what the Lord told him to do.

If we were more attentive to what our elected officials and work bosses do ALONG WITH what pastors do, there would be fewer problems on the planet.

All this "Ima talk to the pastor and tell him what he's doing wrong" is really a trip and it's NOTHING to be proud about. NOTHING.

And let me state for the record: there have been things that I have not agreed with my pastor about and when I didn't agree, I took those things TO THE LORD FIRST and in most cases, the LORD HIMSELF set me straight on those things. And the few times I have gone to my pastor about something that I was not comfortable with, I either got more insight about that thing or I left the conversation still in disagreement but at least a better understanding about where the pastor was coming from on the issues. THANKFULLY, none of these things have been of a significant spiritual matter. They have been about a political or a social issue.


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## ladyofvirtue (Dec 12, 2008)

FoxyScholar said:


> Wow... really? Hmmm....
> 
> Did you and your SO talk to your pastor's boss (THE LORD) about your pastor's conduct? You all's approach seems a bit out of order....
> 
> ...


 
Hey Foxy,

Thank you for speaking the truth to me, in love.



God bless you.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 12, 2008)

ladyofvirtue said:


> He always makes these points to infer how "real" men act.erplexed
> 
> He interjects into his sermons how women find him attractive.
> 
> ...


 

Well, after this information, you do not owe him any explanation of why you two are leaving.  You do not need to pray about it endlessly hoping that G-d will somehow make it alright for you to stay.  You know the 10 commandments, right from wrong and know not to hang with bad company.  Even moreso, not to hang with someone who leads sheep under a cloak of piety but is evil incarnate.  He's immoral and targets his congregation when the men folk aren't looking.  That's a predator.  I'd leave quietly and save the explanations for close pious friends remaining within the congregation when they inquire about it.  They might be searching as well.  This pastor (wolf) is not clueless...just a hot mess...and nasty.  EWWWWW!  Don't make a mountain of a mole hill because it's really simple.  You two are not happy there for good reason.  Leave and find your peace.  You're not going against anyone but the evil one for finding a true church home.  G-d be with you and give you peace and guidance finding your way home.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 12, 2008)

And allow me to give an example of a dear friend who is an orthodox Jew.  A kid in her neighborhood was finding his way more and more to her home, after Shabbat dinner on Saturday.  It was all doing the week.  They could hear the father beating the crap out of this child.  When people asked the rabbi to do something about it, he didn't and let it all slide.  They kept asking him to intervene.  Eventually, someone else turned the father into child protective services or whichever they call it.  The guy got help.  Seems he was going through some psychological problems and taking it out on the family.  Their situation turned out okay but after much pain to the kid. 

 Since their synagogue is a neighborhood thing, they live close to the synagogue to be able to walk there so practically their whole neighborhood for several blocks are congregants.  People knew this situation and the rabbi's refusal to intervene.  During his sermon, rabbi started talking about something similarly related to family honor and honoring parents etc.  My friend, bless her soul, got up and shouted past the woman's section, "you're a bleepin' liar!!!"  LOL.  She interrupted the entire service.  Oh boy.  She stormed out and never returned.  She was right.  I don't agree with interrupting a service that way but she sure was right about the kid.  Both father and rabbi were wrong.  Imagine if the rabbi, G-d forbid, were messing with women???


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## ladyofvirtue (Dec 13, 2008)

Hi Hwiseman,

Thank you for your words of wisdom.

They wlill be considered as we remain prayerful as to what direction The Lord wants us to take.

Be blessed!


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## Shimmie (Dec 13, 2008)

hwiseman said:


> And allow me to give an example of a dear friend who is an orthodox Jew. A kid in her neighborhood was finding his way more and more to her home, after Shabbat dinner on Saturday. It was all doing the week. They could hear the father beating the crap out of this child. When people asked the rabbi to do something about it, he didn't and let it all slide. They kept asking him to intervene. Eventually, someone else turned the father into child protective services or whichever they call it. The guy got help. Seems he was going through some psychological problems and taking it out on the family. Their situation turned out okay but after much pain to the kid.
> 
> Since their synagogue is a neighborhood thing, they live close to the synagogue to be able to walk there so practically their whole neighborhood for several blocks are congregants. People knew this situation and the rabbi's refusal to intervene. During his sermon, rabbi started talking about something similarly related to family honor and honoring parents etc. My friend, bless her soul, got up and shouted past the woman's section, "you're a bleepin' liar!!!" LOL. She interrupted the entire service. Oh boy. She stormed out and never returned. She was right. I don't agree with interrupting a service that way but she sure was right about the kid. Both father and rabbi were wrong. Imagine if the rabbi, G-d forbid, were messing with women???


Bravo!   for your friend.  This child's life was at stake.


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## Shimmie (Dec 13, 2008)

ladyofvirtue said:


> Here we go again:
> 
> While preaching yesterday, our pastor said,"when I was young, the old men used to tell us youngins that the only thing old they wanted was old Grand Dad, the only thing fat they wanted was a wad of money and the only thing black they wanted was a Cadillac." He also mentioned AGAIN that when he see's a woman with a tight tee shirt on, he does what any other normal, heterosexual man would do and that it look, his wife chuckled right along with him. A few men chucked, but you could feel the uneasiness throughout our congregation.
> 
> ...


 
This pastor is in 'sexual sin'.  It's in his spirit, for from the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.  His words are giving life to his thoughts and it won't be long, if not already, before he acts upon them.   

There's a 'spirit' in this world, of lust and dishonor; and the Church is sadly not exempt from it.  Your pastor needs to be confronted and I agree with you husband that the two of you should leave, for your husband senses this spirit and does not wish to be around it.    

Remember when the angel spoke to Joseph (Mary's husband) to get up and take the mother and the child (Jesus) out of the Bethlehem and go to Nazareth to escape the danger of King Herod.   Just because Herod was King did not make him in right standing.  He was under the spirit of evil and sought to kill Jesus.  He had already order the death of all of the first born sons in the entire land.   

As God spoke to Joseph to take his wife and son out from under that cloud of danger, I truly believe God has spoken the same to your husband; to take you, his wife and family out from under the evil spirit of what is ruling in the heart of your Pastor.   For as the oil ran down Aaron's beard, those under will be touched by the residue. 

I wish you the direct and clear direction of the Holy Spirit and the right prayers for your Pastor.  In Jesus's name, Amen.


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## kayte (Dec 14, 2008)

> Here we go again:
> 
> While preaching yesterday, our pastor said,"when I was young, the old men used to tell us youngins that the only thing old they wanted was old Grand Dad, the only thing fat they wanted was a wad of money and the only thing black they wanted was a Cadillac." He also mentioned AGAIN that when he see's a woman with a tight tee shirt on, he does what any other normal, heterosexual man would do and that it look, his wife chuckled right along with him. A few men chucked, but you could feel the uneasiness throughout our congregation.
> 
> ...




Your husband sounds like an extremely honorable man..His instincts genuine and motivated out of sense to protect.I applaud him for being offended and spurred to take immediate action 
and you for posting... 

your pastor objectified every woman in that congregation with his unforutnate attemps at levity and it is an abuse of his position.

Consider your husband's actions on both counts 
..talking to the pastor privately as is every congregant's right ..as the ones who support his mininstry ..and salary
and then finding a church where the leader is spiritual,ethical and mature.
Both seem spot on....
God bless


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## kayte (Dec 14, 2008)

> And let me state for the record: there have been things that I have not agreed with my pastor about and when I didn't agree, I took those things TO THE LORD FIRST and in most cases, the LORD HIMSELF set me straight on those things.



We all have personal ways the Lord speak to us and it may or may not jibe with 
how another person enters prayer...respectfully who is to say..
that there was _not _a dialogue with the Lord.. maybe not in my or your way... 
my sense is this IS a praying family &..God answers our hearts ..not the formality


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## PaperClip (Dec 14, 2008)

kayte said:


> We all have personal ways the Lord speak to us and it may or may not jibe with
> how another person enters prayer...respectfully who is to say..
> that there was _not _a dialogue with the Lord.. maybe not in my or your way...
> my sense is this IS a praying family &..God answers our hearts ..not the formality


 
I read this a few times in the sincere effort to understand....

The core of my point is not necessarily what was said, but the act of SEEKING THE LORD FIRST IN EVERYTHING (that includes formal, informal, casual, whatever... EVERYTHING), including a disagreement with the pastoral leadership that (supposedly) the Lord has led a person to... so it's all about obedience and following the Lord's will in terms of being led to the right church and the right leadership. And right does not equal PERFECT. But at least a sincere attempt to live a life of holiness. That's what we're all supposed to do.

And the more I think about it, even this thread title is suspect in tersm of the sincerity and attitude: the tone is both confrontational and judgemental to the extent that there's little evidence of mercy and grace and patience from the parishoner. Also, the thread title could indicate deeply-rooted frustration. For the benefit of the doubt, I'll take to mean the latter (meaning the OP is very frustrated).


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## Shimmie (Dec 14, 2008)

TheLaurynDoll said:


> I went to Dh's uncle's church... and the pastor made a comment like:
> 
> *"Every man struggles with wanting to have sex with someone outside their marriage and other than his wife... and if a man tells me he doesn't have that problem, he's lying or homosexual HAHAHA!"*
> 
> ...


Lauryndoll, you are exactly right about him planting a subliminal message, and basically this is how that 'spirit of lust' and the exceptance of it.  Not all "Real' men lust and cheat, nor desire to do so.  There are men in and out of Jesus Christ who have no desire to be with any other woman than his wife; even 'unmarried' "Real' men, whose desire is for the one woman whom he has chosen to love and honor.   

I made the point regarding non-Christian and unmarried men on purpose, because these Pastor's are referencing 'all' men. 

What I don't like is hwen this 'mess' comes from the pulpit, it is dishonoring God and disrespecting the union of marriage and to the young men who are discovering that they have 'feelings' for the opposite sex.  

These Pastors' are a role model for many of these young men who do not have a father figure in their lives and they are being told that promiscurity is not only normal, but 'expected' of them; least they be called a liar or a homosexual, both of which are a dishonor to God.   It's as if they are being given an ultimatum... 'be lustful' after many women OR you are not a man, and you are a liar. 

I've been to Churches like this and it's not good, at all.   Back in the 90's, there was a 'wave of freedom' within the Church arena.  There began an 'explosion' of the prosperity messages; the explosion of TV Ministries; and the 'glamor sets'.   It was hollywood or bust, a fashion runway under the lights, camera, action set.

NOW I wnat to be clear, not ALL Ministries exploited the Word, the majority of Ministries are highly honorable and God is truly glorified.  Also, being financially blessed is not a sin. It is God's will for His children to be blessed financially, healthy and full of His wisdom.   I just wanted to clear this up.    

But there were the 'few' Ministries that went totally and completely overboard.  The lust of the flesh, the eyes and the soul, took over and God was not in it.   Of these Ministries, there were Pastors who were being spiritually seduced and lead into sin; and on their way down, they were taking others with them and much of it wre messages such what the Pastors mentioned in this thread were doing.   

I was watching "Huckabee' (Governor H's talk show on Fox News -- I wanted to see Mandesa and hear her sing ) and he had a guest who was a former govenor who 'fell' from position.   And he said something that I will never forget.   He said that men in 'position' often get caught up in themselves and end up not falling from grace, because they were never under grace in the beginning.  But he said that the hunger and the abuse of power, leads them to the fall. 

Wrong is wrong and this nothing but sin that these Pastors are in and they are planting the wrong message into the soil of the precious spirits of God's children entrusted to them in the congregation.  They are literally justifying what they know to be sin.    I rebuke those spirits in Jesus's Name.  For they do not have permission to rule in the hearts and minds of our men.  Period!  

God blessings upon the heart of your marriage.  It is sealed in God's covenant blood of protection. I pray this for all marriages, current and future, In Jesus's name, Amen and Amen.


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## MissLawyerLady (Dec 14, 2008)

Seems like your pastor really needs "to be transformed by the renewing of his mind through Christ Jesus"!!!!!


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 15, 2008)

FoxyScholar said:


> I read this a few times in the sincere effort to understand....
> 
> The core of my point is not necessarily what was said, but the act of SEEKING THE LORD FIRST IN EVERYTHING (that includes formal, informal, casual, whatever... EVERYTHING), including a disagreement with the pastoral leadership that (supposedly) the Lord has led a person to... so it's all about obedience and following the Lord's will in terms of being led to the right church and the right leadership. And right does not equal PERFECT. But at least a sincere attempt to live a life of holiness. That's what we're all supposed to do.
> 
> And the more I think about it, even this thread title is suspect in tersm of the sincerity and attitude: the tone is both confrontational and judgemental to the extent that there's little evidence of mercy and grace and patience from the parishoner. Also, the thread title could indicate deeply-rooted frustration. For the benefit of the doubt, I'll take to mean the latter (meaning the OP is very frustrated).


 
I'm a bit confused by this post.  Where does mercy, grace and patience come into play when someone's sexuality is being exploited?  The RCC did slack on this in parishes where it occurred but now have a no-tolerance policy as they should have had in the first place.  I would think the command to holiness means submission to G-d first rather than  unto the supposed leadership of someone who demonstrates immoral and abusive behavior in the fear they are "going against G-d" by not turning over every stone.  Some stones do not need to be turned over to look for cleanliness.  They're already slimy through and through.  I'm coming at this from the perspective that G-d doesn't expect us to dummy up when we have faith.


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## PaperClip (Dec 15, 2008)

hwiseman said:


> I'm a bit confused by this post. Where does mercy, grace and patience come into play when someone's sexuality is being exploited? The RCC did slack on this in parishes where it occurred but now have a no-tolerance policy as they should have had in the first place. I would think the command to holiness means submission to G-d first rather than unto the supposed leadership of someone who demonstrates immoral and abusive behavior in the fear they are "going against G-d" by not turning over every stone. Some stones do not need to be turned over to look for cleanliness. They're already slimy through and through. I'm coming at this from the perspective that G-d doesn't expect us to dummy up when we have faith.


 
The confusion is understandable because my post was addressing a specific post about going to the pastor to advise the pastor on how to do his job, not the general one and it was definitely not addressing what happened in the parishes or the synagogue.

Let me be very clear: I wholeheartedly advocate faith and critical thinking and also obeying the Word of God which says if you have an ought against your brother (anyone), you are to go to that person and address it DIRECTLY. Now I know in some cases this may not be completely possible based on the delicacy of certain subject matters and fear and intimidation and so on and so forth. 

One thing that we all need to keep in mind is that we cannot control anybody else's behavior. We can only control our own behavior. So going to "talk" (read: chastise) the pastor to change his ways is FUTILE on both a spiritual and natural level. That pastor is (supposed to be) God's man (or woman) and God will deal with his man or woman ACCORDINGLY. If one's purpose is to go to the pastor to get some stuff off one's OWN CHEST to faciltate self-truth and forgiveness, then I humbly submit that that's the better way and should one decide to walk away from the pastor/church, then one can stand before God's face on Judgement Day and say that one has done what one has supposed to do according to the Word of God.


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## kayte (Dec 15, 2008)

> SEEKING THE LORD FIRST IN EVERYTHING (that includes formal, informal, casual, whatever... EVERYTHING),



ITA.....FoxyScholar

adding 
I'd like to presume that the OP and her husband did,
seek the Lord ..on everything...including this...disagreement

they may not have done it in a way that's formal..or that I or you recognize
but God does...that's what I meant when I said God answers our hearts...and since God answers us before we even form the thought or words

 ..surely He heard His children in this instance as well...surely when they were hurting
He heard even if the Holy Spirit had to do some intrepreting in intercession

lo before they speak... I will answer....
from Isaiah....

is what I meant


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## kayte (Dec 15, 2008)

> So going to "talk" (read: chastise) the pastor to change his ways is FUTILE on both a spiritual and natural level. That pastor is (supposed to be) God's man (or woman) and God will deal with his man or woman ACCORDINGLY.



sometimes God does deal with his servants through others...ie:congregants
being accountable to God comes in all different ways 

respectfully agree to disagree....
and completely respecting your conviction on this 
it's a powerful view


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## PaperClip (Dec 15, 2008)

kayte said:


> ITA.....FoxyScholar
> 
> adding
> I'd like to presume that the OP and her husband did,
> ...



How about the Lord Jesus Christ, in His sovereignty and omniscience, He ALREADY KNEW that this situation would occur with the OP and others in this thread who have expressed concern, frustration, and even judgement about their pastors. Maybe this situation is a TEST for these posters to endure and come through with a TESTIMONY, which COULD mean not to run away/leave the church but STAY AND PRAY for that pastor. So to extend your point about whether or not these posters checked with the LORD first about what they should do (and I concur that they did seek the Lord), but did they WAIT ON THE LORD FOR AN ANSWER?

'Cause you know what: STANDING STILL AND WAITING FOR AN ANSWER ain't easy to do at all. That's REAL GREAT FAITH RIGHT THERE.



kayte said:


> sometimes God does deal with his servants through others...ie:congregants
> *being accountable to God comes in all different ways *
> 
> respectfully agree to disagree....
> ...


 
Not exactly sure where the disagreement is because I agree with your point about accountability and I never said that a parishoner/congregant cannot have a divine/God-inspired word of advice for their pastor. But that line gets crossed when that so-called "divine word" is CHASTISEMENT. Let's look to the Word of God for an example:

David and Bathsheba's situation. David did wrong with Bathsheba. But who did the Lord send to chastise David? It wasn't an everyday congregant/citizen of Israel/Jerusalem. It was NATHAN THE PROPHET. So not just an ordinary laymember.


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## ladyofvirtue (Dec 15, 2008)

TO:  

Shimmie
         Saved
  Hwiseman
         Lauren
         Kayte
         JD

I'm glad for your responses that you all have given because sometimes I feel like the "holy roller" for feeling so uncomfortable when our Pastor makes such comments such as these.  Even within our congregation, most of the members just laugh it off and make comments such as, "no one is perfect, everybody sins, God understands, and we're only human."

The reason why we have stayed is, because other than his crude remarks, he is an excellent teacher of the Bible.

DH and I are asking direction from The Lord as to what we should do.  It's not like we can just up and join some other church because it is very hard to find one nowadays that preaches and teaches from the Word.

We just wish that our pastor would just stick to the Scriptures and leave his unsolicitated remarks to himself.

I just think it's important for Christians to dialogue because Godly counsel within our society is so rare to obtain these days.

May The Water Of Life continue to refresh you all my precious sisters!


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## ladyofvirtue (Dec 15, 2008)

Foxy,

Members have went to our pastor and complained about him making such remarks.

Doesn't appear as if he's listening.

My concern is that, since he is a spiritual leader, and The Lord speaks to him, why doesn't he know that this type of behavior is offensive and does not advance the Kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?

On a more positive note, he'll come at the thump of a heartbeat if a member needs him.  He has and will inconvenience himself to get to not only his members, but those that he does not even know.  When my DH's mom was ill, he personally called her to express his concern to her.

He gave DH and I approval to use our church's vans, free of charge, to transport homeless men to and from our church to attend our services.

I could go on and on.

He really is a very likable person and can be tender hearted.  

Again, Foxy, thank you for taking the time to respond.

God bless.


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## ladyofvirtue (Dec 15, 2008)

FoxyScholar said:


> How about the Lord Jesus Christ, in His sovereignty and omniscience, He ALREADY KNEW that this situation would occur with the OP and others in this thread who have expressed concern, frustration, and even judgement about their pastors. Maybe this situation is a TEST for these posters to endure and come through with a TESTIMONY, which COULD mean not to run away/leave the church but STAY AND PRAY for that pastor. So to extend your point about whether or not these posters checked with the LORD first about what they should do (*and I concur that they did seek the Lord), but did they WAIT ON THE LORD FOR AN ANSWER?*
> 
> 
> 'Cause you know what: STANDING STILL AND WAITING FOR AN ANSWER ain't easy to do at all. That's REAL GREAT FAITH RIGHT THERE.
> ...


We're still waiting for The Lord to answer us.


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## Shimmie (Dec 15, 2008)

ladyofvirtue said:


> TO:
> 
> Shimmie
> Saved
> ...


  I thank God that you and your husband are continually blessed beyond measure.   Give your husband a great big hug for being such a wonderful man of God.    

Your husband is living and breathing PROOF that there are STILL men who love the Lord and don't settle for foolishness.   God bless him for taking such a righteous stand for you as his wife.   For truly he has honored you by not agreeing neither accepting what was spoken from the pulpit.   Your husband has the mind of Christ and not that of this world.   

Blessings to you both.


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## PaperClip (Dec 15, 2008)

ladyofvirtue said:


> Foxy,
> 
> Members have went to our pastor and complained about him making such remarks.
> 
> ...


 
Hi, Dear LOV:

Per the bolded: how do you define spiritual leader? And how do you (really) know that the Lord speaks to him and he is actually listening and obeying what the Lord is saying?

Across the board, from the pulpit to the door, we shall know a tree by the fruit bears, yes? I think that many (in general) conclude that just because a person tacks a church sign on a door that that automatically makes them a pastor sent by God. That CALLING ONESELF a pastor automatically makes you  pastor. My pastor (of nearly 20 years) used to say this all the time: Going to Burger King doesn't make you a Whopper. Going to Mickey D's doesn't make you a Big Mac. Going to a bank doesn't make you a millionaire. In other words, we know a tree by the fruit it bears.

You say your pastor will rush to a member's need. Well amen and hallelujah. But are those the characteristics of a pastor? One who has been divinely assigned and sent to oversee a flock of the Lord's people?

You know what? Maybe this pastor HAS been sent by the Lord and maybe he's gotten off track with these weird comments. Maybe there's sin in his life and maybe he's fallen and but he's trying to get back up... or is he possibly wallowing in sin without repentence?

Who is your pastor accountable to? Is there someone or a body of pastors to whom your pastor is associated so he can be accountable?

I remain steadfast on the point that members who go to their pastor to "complain" are not only out of order, but that their complaining is a sign that they have not given this situation over to the(ir) Lord in prayer because that takes real faith to do that. Does this church have associate pastors who can hear the concerns of the people and then they can take these concerns to the pastor?


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## PaperClip (Dec 15, 2008)

ladyofvirtue said:


> We're still waiting for The Lord to answer us.


 
Amen... and yet in the opening post you closing remark was "DH says we will be looking for a new church home."

What if the Lord answers in such a way that contradicts your husband's plans? And we all recognize that the Lord has given us free will.... And with appropriate disclaimers in place re. none of my business and all that, I passionately declare that this is the fundamental question of where the rubber meets the road: will you walk in His DIVINE WILL or His PERMISSIVE WILL?


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## Glib Gurl (Dec 15, 2008)

TheLaurynDoll said:


> I went to Dh's uncle's church... and the pastor made a comment like:
> 
> "Every man struggles with wanting to have sex with someone outside their marriage and other than his wife... and if a man tells me he doesn't have that problem, he's lying or homosexual HAHAHA!"


 
I cannot STAND that type of attitude.  That's basically the same as okaying that type of behavior.   

If you have the Holy Spirit living in you, you truly do not crave the things of this world because the Spirit and the flesh lust against each other.  That's why I know that I have further to go in my spiritual journey because the lust of the eyes have been in control for some time now . . .


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## PaperClip (Dec 15, 2008)

Glib Gurl said:


> I cannot STAND that type of attitude. That's basically the same as okaying that type of behavior.
> 
> *If you have the Holy Spirit living in you, you truly do not crave the things of this world because the Spirit and the flesh lust against each other.* That's why I know that I have further to go in my spiritual journey because the lust of the eyes have been in control for some time now . . .


 
NOOOOOPEEEEEE!!!!!Not true!!!! I have the Holy Spirit living inside of me WITH speaking in tongues as the Holy Spirit gives utterance and I'm telling you unashamedly and unapologetically that I want to have SEX. I'd prefer to have sex within wedlock, but until that times comes, I still want to have sex NOW. Yes, it's a struggle... and thank the Lord for the Holy Spirit who is a preserver and yet somtimes I don't want to be preserved and yet thank the Lord for His mercy and grace.

We have to continually bring this flesh under subjection. It's not an automatic thing once you give your life to the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 9:27 (The Message): 
"I don't know about you, but I'm running hard for the finish line. I'm giving it everything I've got. No sloppy living for me! I'm staying alert and in top condition. I'm not going to get caught napping, telling everyone else all about it and then missing out myself."

ETA: I meant to add that when one is in a leadership position, it is of even greater significance in terms of being an example and being accountable should a leader's actions cause another (weaker) brother or sister to stray.


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## ladyofvirtue (Dec 15, 2008)

FoxyScholar said:


> Amen... and yet in the opening post you closing remark was "DH says we will be looking for a new church home."
> 
> What if the Lord answers in such a way that contradicts your husband's plans? And we all recognize that the Lord has given us free will.... And with appropriate disclaimers in place re. none of my business and all that, I passionately declare that this is the fundamental question of where the rubber meets the road: will you walk in His DIVINE WILL or His PERMISSIVE WILL?


 Foxy,

You catch everything...are you going to school to be an attorney? (lol)

But, seriously, we havn't been told by our Father that we can join another church, we're just looking.


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## PaperClip (Dec 15, 2008)

ladyofvirtue said:


> Foxy,
> 
> You catch everything...are you going to school to be an attorney? (lol)
> 
> But, seriously, we havn't been told by our Father that we can join another church, we're just looking.


 
Nope.... I watch/observe and ask A LOT of questions....


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## ladyofvirtue (Dec 15, 2008)

^^^^^ When you marry and have kids, they betta not evva lie to you cause you'll "memba" every word they said!


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 15, 2008)

ladyofvirtue said:


> Foxy,
> 
> You catch everything...are you going to school to be an attorney? (lol)
> 
> But, seriously, we havn't been told by our Father that we can join another church, we're just looking.


 

Seriously though, why do you need G-d to tell you to join another church when you feel that your spiritual walk is in danger right where you are?  He might have already spoken.  Waiting for G-d to answer is sometimes like this:

A man fell overboard from his little sailboat, and was thrashing around in the water when another boat pulled up.
"Jump in, we'll save you" - they screamed. 
"No" cried the drowning man, "God will save me". 
The scene was repeated twice more and then a helicopter hovered over the man. 
"We came to rescue you" yelled the pilot. 
"No, God will save me" was the response again. 
The man drowned, and as he crossed the Pearly Gates, he ran straight to Jesus. 
"I placed my faith in You, and You let me drown?! 
""Hey you dummy!" said Jesus. "I sent three boats and a helicopter". 


All in fun, all in fun.  But seriously, He didn't give us common sense an an ornament but rather a tool to determine decisions.  Your answer might not come via another person's validation, it might be staring you in the face.  G-d speaks in many ways to His children and consider, like many countries, our languages differ.  I personally think you already have the tools and I hope you tune into them.  I wish you peace and protection.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 15, 2008)

FoxyScholar said:


> The confusion is understandable because my post was addressing a specific post about going to the pastor to advise the pastor on how to do his job, not the general one and it was definitely not addressing what happened in the parishes or the synagogue.
> 
> Let me be very clear: I wholeheartedly advocate faith and critical thinking and also obeying the Word of God which says if you have an ought against your brother (anyone), you are to go to that person and address it DIRECTLY. Now I know in some cases this may not be completely possible based on the delicacy of certain subject matters and fear and intimidation and so on and so forth.
> 
> One thing that we all need to keep in mind is that we cannot control anybody else's behavior. We can only control our own behavior. So going to "talk" (read: chastise) the pastor to change his ways is FUTILE on both a spiritual and natural level. That pastor is (supposed to be) God's man (or woman) and God will deal with his man or woman ACCORDINGLY. If one's purpose is to go to the pastor to get some stuff off one's OWN CHEST to faciltate self-truth and forgiveness, then I humbly submit that that's the better way and should one decide to walk away from the pastor/church, then one can stand before God's face on Judgement Day and say that one has done what one has supposed to do according to the Word of God.


 

Dissention.  I likewise do not agree with them even talking to him.  I've heard of lots of problems happening with folks talking to the pastor.  I agree in this case because I don't think they will be telling him anything he doesn't already know.  The "magisterium" should be talking to him.


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## PaperClip (Dec 15, 2008)

hwiseman said:


> Seriously though, why do you need G-d to tell you to join another church when you feel that your spiritual walk is in danger right where you are? He might have already spoken.


 
I dare not answer for the OP but here's my take on your question, the Lord's ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts (Isaiah 55-8-9).

Sometimes the way or the plan may be to stay in the situation to pray that situation through...and the Lord will give grace and mercy and covering. Jonah tried to run from his assignment. Hosea could have not married his prostitute wife but Hosea decided to trust the Lord and willingly obey the Lord's instruction. That takes GREAT FAITH to do the unpopular or uneasy option.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 15, 2008)

FoxyScholar said:


> I dare not answer for the OP but here's my take on your question, the Lord's ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts (Isaiah 55-8-9).
> 
> Sometimes the way or the plan may be to stay in the situation to pray that situation through...and the Lord will give grace and mercy and covering. Jonah tried to run from his assignment. Hosea could have not married his prostitute wife but Hosea decided to trust the Lord and willingly obey the Lord's instruction. That takes GREAT FAITH to do the unpopular or uneasy option.


 

But for someone in immediate or potential danger?  Those particular situations don't quite apply this one.  I've had family involved in similar  situations and it turned out badly.  It's not like OP is turning her back on her faith but rather seeking someplace to worship that actually encourages that faith through example.  She's remaining in the christian faith so their choice to find another church shouldn't be the problem.  Staying could compile problems where there is a dangerous behavior promoted by leadership to families.  I'm aware that, ultimately, she and her husband have to make that choice on whether to stay or not. 

This whole discussion goes so far beyond just OP because there are many lurkers in these situations.  What I'm hearing is that there is this idea in "christianity" that a person never makes a move in his life based upon that which G-d inbued within him, being his common sense, second sense, knowledge, like or dislike  because it's not relying upon a sent message of sorts when that "sent" message might already have been indicated in scripture.  Waiting for the answer more often requires making an educated choice, a move.  Then validation from G-d.  Most people do not hear an audible voice from G-d regarding a decision they need to make.  Faith requires a move.  Either choice is a move - to stay or not to stay but simply waiting and waiting when there's every indication that something is seriously wrong is not wise.  I just don't want to see anybody sexually or spiritually abused there.

Everything begins and ends with the Decalogue.  It's all contained within.  That is our guide in life.  Then there's interpretation of it all.  So is faith bad then?  Absolutely not, it's essential to even believing in G-d, afterall, who even sees G-d?   To take a blind leap in the dark in this situation along a dangerous rocky path when there might already be a well-lit road leading to the truth might be the actual question.  It just seems that people allow their pastors or spiritual leaders to make important decisions for them.  And I do agree with you that his co-pastors should be consulted...but people have to consult them.  

Situations like this just spell potential cult to me.  Common sense is golden and it's G-d-given.  He never meant us to totally replace our intellect with faith and vice versa.  There needs to be balance...then there's miracle...which falls outside those boundaries!  Why then would G-d give us the guide to live by if we were incapable of ever discerning in life that which is written in example?  We wouldn't have the intellect to read it and study it.  

Base one, if those accusations are truth that the entire congregation knows of by fact, how could they have an obligation to remain in that situation where by all appearances, evil is promoted?  Yes, G-d's thoughts are higher than ours.  And He put those thoughts in scripture for us to pick and choose who we'll serve.  The man doesn't make the cut.  I wouldn't want my wife nor daughters to be around that pastor nor anybody he "teaches" ...not even sons nor myself.  I'll shut up after this one but I just don't see where this is a case where someone should be advised to pray for the answer when it's quite clear.  They are in danger.  Now, if he changed and it were later found out he had some type of hormonal imbalance  or something lol and medication cured him, who's to say they'd be wrong in returning...if all is kosher???


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## PaperClip (Dec 15, 2008)

hwiseman said:


> But for someone in immediate or potential danger? Those particular situations don't quite apply this one. I've had family involved in similar situations and it turned out badly. It's not like OP is turning her back on her faith but rather seeking someplace to worship that actually encourages that faith through example. She's remaining in the christian faith so their choice to find another church shouldn't be the problem. Staying could compile problems where there is a dangerous behavior promoted by leadership to families. I'm aware that, ultimately, she and her husband have to make that choice on whether to stay or not.
> 
> This whole discussion goes so far beyond just OP because there are many lurkers in these situations. What I'm hearing is that there is this idea in "christianity" that a person never makes a move in his life based upon that which G-d inbued within him, being his common sense, second sense, knowledge, like or dislike because it's not relying upon a sent message of sorts when that "sent" message might already have been indicated in scripture. Waiting for the answer more often requires making an educated choice, a move. Then validation from G-d. Most people do not hear an audible voice from G-d regarding a decision they need to make. Faith requires a move. Either choice is a move - to stay or not to stay but simply waiting and waiting when there's every indication that something is seriously wrong is not wise. I just don't want to see anybody sexually or spiritually abused there.
> 
> ...


 
I lightweight resent the implication of the cult reference. I noted in an earlier (eta: post) concerning faith and critical thinking. Although there may be instances where faith and critical thinking are polar opposites. The Lord will take what one would call foolish (or cultish) and confound the wise.

1 Corinthians 1:27: [No] for God selected (deliberately chose) what in the world is foolish to put the wise to shame, and what the world calls weak to put the strong to shame. (Amplified).

1 Corinthians 3:18-20 (The Message)
Don't fool yourself. Don't think that you can be wise merely by being up-to-date with the times. Be God's fool—that's the path to true wisdom. What the world calls smart, God calls stupid. It's written in Scripture, He exposes the chicanery of the chic. The Master sees through the smoke screens of the know-it-alls.

In my humble opinion, the use of the term dangerous is sort of like saying the sky is falling. No one is holding a (proverbial) gun to anybody's head here. No one is in physical danger...or based on what has been shared here, there's been no (formal) accusations. We should be careful not to bear false witness. And even the spiritual danger that may be occuring here, one has to trust in the almighty protection of the Lord God Almighty. The Lord is not going to abandon His people and leave them in the hands of a hireling. This really isn't about this pastor. It's really about the OP and her family's relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. We all have to answer to the Lord for what we say and do. So even as this pastor may be doing some things that aren't pastoral, that doesn't give the OP and her family permission to disregard what the LORD would have for them to do...or it shouldn't result in that. 

This situation has nothing to do with the OP and her family leaving the faith. And yes, they have a decision to make. My ultimate question to them dealt with the DIVINE will of the Lord, based on my earlier comments about a divine assignment, faith and trust in the Lord, just like many of those in the Bible, outlined in Hebrews 11 whose VERY LIVES were in danger but they RISKED THEIR LIVES for the sake of the Kingdom. Some of them died but they died as GIANTS in the faith and we're talking about them and will continue to do so until Kingdom come.

For global comfort, I'll say this: I wholeheartedly believe that if the OP and her family decide to walk away from this church TOMORROW, the Lord knows their hearts and He will lead and guide them in the way He would have them to go, as they willingly submit to Him. 

It takes GREAT FAITH to wait on the Lord. Stand still and see the salvation of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 20:17: "But you will not even need to fight. Take your positions; *then stand still and watch the Lord’s victory.* He is with you, O people of Judah and Jerusalem. Do not be afraid or discouraged. Go out against them tomorrow, for the Lord is with you!”


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## Kalani (Dec 16, 2008)

ladyofvirtue said:


> Even within our congregation, most of the members just laugh it off and make comments such as, "no one is perfect, everybody sins, God understands, and we're only human."



And here lies the danger of receiving these types of messages.  Once you get in to that kind of thinking, it is a slippery slope. Yes it is true that no one is perfect but once you become saved you are supposed to become a new creation meaning a new mindset and new inclination toward righteousness. Sure if we mess up we can repent (sincerely) and God will forgive us but that by no means is a "license to sin". 

Yeah, certain thoughts may enter our head but we are supposed to toss them out, not entertain them and certainly not talk about them on a consistent basis, especially to a congregation! erplexed  You gotta starve that ol' flesh! Not keep feeding it, which then turns to justifying it's demands. We don't have to constantly give in the demands of our flesh, we have God and the Holy Spirit to help us.


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## saved06 (Dec 16, 2008)

FoxyScholar said:


> Wow... really? Hmmm....
> 
> Did you and your SO talk to your pastor's boss (THE LORD) about your pastor's conduct? You all's approach seems a bit out of order....
> 
> ...


 
Yes, we've been praying for months before we brought it up. And actually everything was set up to where we could bring it up. We are a close church where everyone knows everybody so we are comfortable in communicating. Coming to find out the spirit of Lust was knocking at his door and we were all able to pray about it, for the enemy to be rebuked.


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## MissMeWithThatIsh (Dec 16, 2008)

Shimmie said:


> Lauryndoll, you are exactly right about him planting a subliminal message, and basically this is how that 'spirit of lust' and the exceptance of it. Not all "Real' men lust and cheat, nor desire to do so. There are men in and out of Jesus Christ who have no desire to be with any other woman than his wife; even 'unmarried' "Real' men, whose desire is for the one woman whom he has chosen to love and honor.
> 
> I made the point regarding non-Christian and unmarried men on purpose, because these Pastor's are referencing 'all' men.
> 
> ...


 Thank you... what bothers me MORE about this type of attitude, is the fact that people plant these seeds in men, but also plant seeds of ineffectiveness and helplessness in women. What about the fact that women lust for sex, sexual attention and for sensual things as well? In these churches, women who do speak up are condemned or looked upon crazy. I've said SEVERAL times... I can see the lust issue as it affects men and women due to my experiences... both pure and unpure...


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## ladyofvirtue (Dec 16, 2008)

There is Scripture located in the book of Proverbs that says:

"There is a way that seemeth right unto a man,
but the end thereof is the way of death."

For example, how do we know that our Father will not heal the pastor of this problem?  Or what if we join a church and find out that the pastor is not dealing with a lust problem, but is an alcoholic, drug addict, homosexual,...?

All I know is that, from my personal experiences, to move without the direction of The Holy Ghost can and will bring about disasterous (sp?) consequences.


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## saved06 (Dec 16, 2008)

ladyofvirtue said:


> Seriously though, why do you need G-d to tell you to join another church when you feel that your spiritual walk is in danger right where you are? He might have already spoken. Waiting for G-d to answer is sometimes like this:
> 
> There is Scripture located in the book of Proverbs that says:
> 
> ...


 
Question: why do you spell God without the "o". I've seen this on many boards, so I'm wondering what this means..Thanks


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## ladyofvirtue (Dec 16, 2008)

^^^^^^^^

Oops,

I took the quote from Hwiseman (the black type) and mistakenly erased her name.

Sorry.


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## Shimmie (Dec 16, 2008)

TheLaurynDoll said:


> Thank you... what bothers me MORE about this type of attitude, is the fact that
> 
> ....*people plant these seeds in men, but also plant seeds of ineffectiveness and helplessness in women. *
> 
> *What about the fact that women lust for sex, sexual attention and for sensual things as well? In these churches, women who do speak up are condemned or looked upon crazy. I've said SEVERAL times... I can see the lust issue as it affects men and women due to my experiences... both pure and unpure...*


 
EXACTLY!   Please don't make me go 'there' on this.   However, you spoke the truth and I thank you for it.   

Cause you know what this message is doing?  Giving the women license to be a temptress upon the men.   It's a vicious cycle and I don't like it one bit.  

Please don't get me started.   All of know how 'long' worded  I can get.     Yeah,  I admitted it.  

God bless you and Happy Christmas to you.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 18, 2008)

FoxyScholar said:


> This situation has nothing to do with the OP and her family leaving the faith.!”


 
Of course not, then why should they stay where they are not comfortable?  It wouldn't be a "sin" to think for oneself and actually make a choice.  In doing so, it wouldn't mean they didn't consult G-d on His opinion.  Uh, scripture???  How about scripture actually supporting keeping away from evil doers?  This is not what I was comprehending.  

Cult reference...was not aimed at christians in general nor at you...it was a reference to that particular situation of that minister.  Perhaps people feel trapped?  Afraid to leave?  Who knows?  I've known a case about women in  my aunt's congregation.  Dunno, I just have learned to use more common sense than anybody else's interpretation of G-d's truth.  Uh, that leads to what G-d has written as well.  G-d has always met me and helped me, nonetheless.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 18, 2008)

ladyofvirtue said:


> There is Scripture located in the book of Proverbs that says:
> 
> "There is a way that seemeth right unto a man,
> but the end thereof is the way of death."
> ...


 

My question should then be, how will you know the direction of the H-ly Spirit?


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 18, 2008)

saved06 said:


> Question: why do you spell God without the "o". I've seen this on many boards, so I'm wondering what this means..Thanks


 

I'll put the "o" in as not to offend others who might not comprehend...it's habit.  It's a Jewish thing...letters of the Holy name respected deeply even in writ.


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## ladyofvirtue (Dec 18, 2008)

My question should then be, how will you know the direction of the H-ly Spirit?

This is an excellent question.  It's one that I am rarely asked.

The more time that I spend with The Lord while reading the Word and talking to Him (prayer), the more clearer His voice becomes.  

For He has said:

"*Ask, and it shall be given.  Seek and ye shall find.  Knock and the door shall be opened."  KJV*

*"Call unto Me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things that thou knowest not."  KJV*

*"And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear."  KJV*

*"The Lord is my Shepherd."  KJV*

I guarantee that anyone who spends quality time with Him, will know better and better when He is speaking to them.  

Whenever we hear from The Lord, be it a thought, advice given to you, a dream/vision, etc., must be aligned with The Bible.  

WARNING - If it is not located somewhere between Genesis and   Revelation, IT IS NOT OF GOD.  

_*"Now according to Scripture, "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face:  now I know in part..."*_ *KJV*

Am I always sure that it is God who is speaking to me?  Truthfully, no.  BUT, as referrenced above, because of experience and time spent with Him and His loving compassion and grace, I know His voice better than I ever have known it.  It's like trying to find a radio station that has a lot of static.  You just keep turning the knob, re-positioning the radio or re-arranging the antena trying to get a clear reception.

But, one day, When I behold His face, His majesty and beauty, I will hear Him speak to me, "*Well done thou good and faithful servant:  thou hast been faithful over a few things; I will make thee ruler over many things:  enter thou into the joy of thy Lord."  KJV*

And that reception will be loud and clear.

If you have more questions, please ask.  Some of your questions and comments are invigorating.


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## PaperClip (Dec 19, 2008)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Of course not, then why should they stay where they are not comfortable? It wouldn't be a "sin" to think for oneself and actually make a choice. In doing so, it wouldn't mean they didn't consult G-d on His opinion. Uh, scripture??? How about scripture actually supporting keeping away from evil doers? This is not what I was comprehending.
> 
> Cult reference...was not aimed at christians in general nor at you...it was a reference to that particular situation of that minister. Perhaps people feel trapped? Afraid to leave? Who knows? I've known a case about women in my aunt's congregation. Dunno, I just have learned to use more common sense than anybody else's interpretation of G-d's truth. Uh, that leads to what G-d has written as well. G-d has always met me and helped me, nonetheless.


 
2 Corinthians 1:3-5 
3Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; 4Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. 5For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.

1 Peter 3:13-15

13Now who is there to hurt you if you are [a]zealous followers of that which is good? 14But even in case you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, [you are] blessed (happy, to be envied). Do not dread or be afraid of their threats, nor be disturbed [by their opposition]. 15But in your hearts set Christ apart as holy [and acknowledge Him] as Lord. Always be ready to give a logical defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope that is in you, but do it courteously and respectfully.(A)     
So in other words, the Lord did not promise a trouble-free life. But that when we encounter trouble (stuff we brought upon ourselves, i.e. David and Bathsheba) or that trouble encounters us (stuff we did not bring upon ourselves, i.e. Daniel; Job), that the Lord would be with us WITHIN the trouble.

You are certainly welcome to make reference to any scriptures that support your points, e.g., evil doers. The insight would be useful.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 19, 2008)

ladyofvirtue said:


> My question should then be, how will you know the direction of the H-ly Spirit?
> 
> This is an excellent question. It's one that I am rarely asked.
> 
> ...


 
Never invite *me* to ask more questions ...we can go all day!!

Okay, here we go.  I'll make an analogy of sorts.  If I want to know that what I desire to have or do is in line with God's will, I'll ask Him in prayer, right?  So, if I want a nice job, would I ask Him which type I need first or would I ask for anything related to a specific desire I already have since it fits my personality?  Would I just wait to see something written clearly on the wall, hear audibly?  Or would I act first and then, after much trying, I secure something?  Does one wait for it to come to him/her or does one work towards it in the first place?  

I mean that what I'm praying for is not going to be specifically written in scripture especially with my name on it...unless I know some specific kabbalistic code in numerology to decipher it.  I don't know that stuff and I'm not even sure it's true but you can imagine what I mean.  At some point, someone will have to just make a decision in hopes it's in line with what's biblical and righteous, correct?  I'm basically trying to comprehend this particular part of the discussion in light of protestant christian beliefs.

Oh, and it's me, HWiseman, I just got a username change that I'd wanted for quite awhile.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 19, 2008)

FoxyScholar said:


> 2 Corinthians 1:3-5
> 3Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; 4Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. 5For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.
> 
> 1 Peter 3:13-15
> ...


 
Yeah, but if you could avoid that trouble altogether???  I don't operate by sola scriptura but by tradition and scripture when I know which ones to apply.  My question and comment to you is that your inclusion of those scriptures does not specifically address dealing with her situation in my opinion.  It certainly addresses trouble that people can experience but there are degrees of trouble and God gave us logic.  My disconnect is between that particular scripture and her particular situation...logic...decision-making based upon the here and now and being able to clearly see danger signs and acting to protect oneself from them.  

I mean, certainly, it seems that you *could* apply that scripture to that situation to justify remaining but I'm not seeing where there would be a "sin" or discord in making a decision to leave.  Obviously, at this point, it's no longer about whether OP should stay or leave to me, but the application of scripture to support one decision or the other.  

BTW, I believe that scripture pointed to specific times of the early Church in which  that particular sect of Judaism (christianity) faced opposition from traditionalists who saw Jesus as a failed messiah.  I see how you're applying it but I don't see where christians are having any particular sayso in their own lives regarding decisions made in this presented scenario.  I don't see where logic and intellect are being applied.  I see where scripture is being, well, bent to apply to that. 

 Do you think God is opposed to people thinking for themselves?  Do you think that faith is truly blind and that no one should rely upon their instinct in cases such as this lest they be opposed to God Himself?  

Girl, we need a new thread somewhere...I need to get to the bottom of this and it looks bottomless!!!  I'll make one if you wish.  Didn't mean to hijack this thread.


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