# Christian Unity, Cultural Differences and Freedom to Integrate



## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 12, 2009)

*Pastor Richard Twiss on Christian Unity*

This is a video of pastor and speaker, Richard Twiss, of the Wiconi.org.  It is an organization that seeks to support First Nations People who worship the Jesus Way, thus fostering an Indigenous cultural expression in their style of worship and understanding of the gospel.  I transcribed some of what he had to say and I wanted your opinions.  How has this philosphy on faith and culture influenced the African American church?

*Twiss at Anderson University and the Mennonite Church of Canada, 2008*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClY7RoHsTKY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycTvKpKO0M0&NR=1

_*""*...but there were approx. 20 million Native people here in th U.S..  But 400 years later, in the 1800's, there were only 230,000 Native people left.  So from 20 million to 200,000 in 400 years is one of the greatest examples of ethnic cleansing or cultural genocide in the history of the world.  So right here in the United States, all of that  took place.  So for our people, christianity has not been good news.  So the way the gospel came to our people is you're sinners, you're involved in paganism and witchcraft and you worship demons and your drums are of the devil.  Your dances are of the devil, so when you become a christian, you should cut your hair, learn the piano, learn the guitar, stop your dancing so you could be good christians   And along with that, learn our language and etc., etc.  So christianity has never been good news.  So, it's sort of out of that context that I came to faith.  And so for me, it's been a journey of what does it mean to be fully cultural and fully christian.  Or in my instance, what does it mean to be fully Lakota and fully christian...*" *

*"*...and our cultures are like sunglasses, they are lenses that we put on and we view the world.  We have white lenses, black lenses, chinese lenses,...all kinds of lenses.  Now the beauty of, say, a telescope, is that it enables you to see.  The problem is it prevents you from seeing 
everything.  So then, the only way to see more than what we can is by borrowing other peoples' 
telescopes and looking at the world the way they perceive the world.  NOw what if we did that 
theologically..  What if we did it missiologically?  That maybe the bible isn't everything that we 
thought it would be because we are so bound by a certain cultural bias, even the fact that we 
speak the English language.  That binds us to a limited possibility about how fully we can 
understand G-d...*"*

*"*...so because of their narrowmindedness culturally, they couldn't recognize the fact that G-d was doing an amazing new ....the problem was that their way of thinking about culture and 
diversity was still bound up in their Jewish ethnocentrism which blinded them to the fact that G-d 
was doing a new thing among the gentiles.  So for all intensive purporses, they were Jesus-
loving, spiritually empowered, mature, absolutely dedicated born-again bigots, for Jesus.  
Because their world view was too small.  And I think many of us have had too small of a world 
view...*"*_


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 12, 2009)

Bump Bump


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## Almaz (Mar 12, 2009)

well I guess you get no responses here.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 12, 2009)

Almaz said:


> well I guess you get no responses here.


 

I know.  I was really hoping for responses because he had very interesting concepts on the spread of the faith.  He truly left no none out of the picture.  I found it intriguing.


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## Almaz (Mar 13, 2009)

Well I guess they could care less about the Native American and that is okay too. well most people are like others if it does not conform EXACTLY to what you believe then fuggidaboutit


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## divya (Mar 13, 2009)

Culture tends to always be expressed within Christianity. To me, there is no issue with that at all, as long as it is not in contradiction with the Word of God. 

*Rev. 5:9 *_And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of *every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation*;_

Unfortunately, it is true that Christianity or a certain branch of Christianity did not come many Native peoples and many other groups in the proper manner. It was forced so many instances, which was against God's intent. The expression of non-Western European culture was often looked down upon. Of course, such sentiments are restricted to those times and peoples. As the pastor noted, even the Scriptures discuss ethnocentrism, which plagued the world even then. It's a human sickness that we can overcome only with God.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 13, 2009)

divya said:


> Culture tends to always be expressed within Christianity. To me, there is no issue with that at all, as long as it is not in contradiction with the Word of God.
> 
> *Rev. 5:9 *_And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of *every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation*;_
> 
> Unfortunately, it is true that Christianity or a certain branch of Christianity did not come many Native peoples and many other groups in the proper manner. It was forced so many instances, which was against God's intent. The expression of non-Western European culture was often looked down upon. Of course, such sentiments are restricted to those times and peoples. As the pastor noted, even the Scriptures discuss ethnocentrism, which plagued the world even then. It's a human sickness that we can overcome only with God.


 

Do you think it's still a significant problem today?  How has this issue affected the African American church?


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## divya (Mar 13, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Do you think it's still a significant problem today?  How has this issue affected the African American church?



Yes, of course. Ethnic issues definitely exist in the world today and unfortunately people have difficulty dropping those issues within Christianity.  

Honestly, I cannot really tell you how the issue has affected the African-American church. My family is not AA, nor do we attend an AA church. But I will say that within Christianity, there are still those who have difficulty putting faith over culture. For example, if a girl from Nicaragua would like to marry someone from Ireland, or someone from India would like so marry someone from Ghana etc. Instead of basing the decision on spiritual matters, some families would reject the union simply because the person is of a different culture. Within Christianity, I believe we have to let go of that. Preference is one thing but to reject someone on that basis when they have a clear love for God is wrong. How do we expect to reach heaven where all people will be represented and we cannot learn to love and accept each other here?


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 13, 2009)

divya said:


> Yes, of course. Ethnic issues definitely exist in the world today and unfortunately people have difficulty dropping those issues within Christianity.
> 
> Honestly, I cannot really tell you how the issue has affected the African-American church. My family is not AA, nor do we attend an AA church. But I will say that within Christianity, there are still those who have difficulty putting faith over culture. For example, if a girl from Nicaragua would like to marry someone from Ireland, or someone from India would like so marry someone from Ghana etc. Instead of basing the decision on spiritual matters, some families would reject the union simply because the person is of a different culture. ?


 
Then how has this issue affected your own particular non-white culture within the body of christianity, assuming your culture is non-European?  Are there elements within the traditional worship of, say, your grandparents' culture, that are accepted and openly expressed in your worship service?  Twiss is talking about incorporating Native beliefs into the expression of christianity because it is not contrary to belief in the One True G-d nor in the worship of Him.  He's not nec. talking about prejudice regarding multicultural unions.


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## divya (Mar 13, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Then how has this issue affected your own particular non-white culture within the body of christianity, assuming your culture is non-European?  Are there elements within the traditional worship of, say, your grandparents' culture, that are accepted and openly expressed in your worship service?  Twiss is talking about incorporating Native beliefs into the expression of christianity because it is not contrary to belief in the One True G-d nor in the worship of Him.  He's not nec. talking about prejudice regarding multicultural unions.



Yes and no. 

God has blessed our faith with Christian cultural expression that is acceptable in His sight. That being said, the elements within worship are those which are in accordance with the Word, yet characteristic of our culture/s. My church has over 50 nationalities/cultures represented.  The majority of us are of Caribbean/West Indian heritage (but also Latino, African, African-American, South Asian etc). I know that we sing certain Christian songs that are from our specific countries and such, in addition to others here in the U.S. Our cultures are often reflected in our instrumentals. It is reflected in foods during potlucks or in our dress, especially on International Day. All of our cultures have beautiful ways in which we can reflect God in our lives.

Here is one of the area SDA churches playing "Holy Holy" on the steel pan, the national instrument of my parent's country (Trinidad & Tobago). The song is put to a soca beat, which is our indigenous musical genre and now basically the same for many other Caribbean/West Indian countries. Wish the sound was better but... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1BqAT9kwjA


However, the elements of traditional worship in my grandparents’ religious culture generally would not be acceptable, because it is not in accordance with the Scriptures. On my father’s side, my grandfather was Hindu and therefore those practices do not mesh with those of Christianity, particular that of Seventh-Day Adventism. On my mother’s side, the same goes for my grandmother, who used to practice a mix of Catholicism/Shango beliefs. Shango is Yoruba-based (indigenous African) religion. Those beliefs are not in accordance with SDA Christianity for a number of reasons. Like Hinduism, there is acknowledgement of other deities/gods etc.  That is only one example of a practice that God does not approve of. We could go on and on.  My mother’s father did not believe in God or any god. He was a black Carib and because of the experiences of his peoples among other things, he generally did not acknowledge God. (My father’s mother is Catholic, so there are some similarities there). So overall, I would say _no_ as far as religious culture/practice. However, as stated earlier, there is culture in general expressed within Christianity.

(True, he wasn’t talking about prejudice in multicultural unions but I do believe that the narrow-mindedness that the pastor spoke about and ethnocentrism can be found within Christianity is such situations).


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 13, 2009)

divya said:


> Yes and no.
> 
> God has blessed our faith with Christian cultural expression that is acceptable in His sight. That being said, the elements within worship are those which are in accordance with the Word, yet characteristic of our culture/s. My church has over 50 nationalities/cultures represented. The majority of us are of Caribbean/West Indian heritage (but also Latino, African, African-American, South Asian etc). I know that we sing certain Christian songs that are from our specific countries and such, in addition to others here in the U.S. Our cultures are often reflected in our instrumentals. It is reflected in foods during potlucks or in our dress, especially on International Day. All of our cultures have beautiful ways in which we can reflect God in our lives.
> 
> ...


 
Trini!!!  I used to live in P.R.  Friends from Trini and Venezuela...all over, actually.  How I miss it.  I get your point.  My family is 2-nation but we're basically the same peoples lol.  Thanks for your responses.


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## Irresistible (Mar 14, 2009)

I dont know if I am on point with what your asking here

But I wanted to say this, do not concern yourself with the intolerance of others, God himself knows from whence you came and all beliefs instilled in you and what has influenced you,  keep seeking him, not the approval OR tolerance of others , nor meshing of the faiths,  You just keep YOUR faith and YOUR walk,  HE DOES KNOW YOU,  and keep seeking him and I gaurantee you will be lead to the truth , all truth, if you seek and ask ,it will be opened to you

also do not be dismayed, by the lack of acceptance of your walk by Christians,  many of us, should be reminded,  we were once lost and  are not so far removed from coming to the LORD ourselves having our own ,or our  families having  roots in the occult,  the LORD knew how to guide us and he can and will do no less for you. NO LESS

do not seek acceptance from flesh but only from God, this is your spiritual journey to know him and know him more and love him more and know more truth and seek it for you, and yours alone

eta dont catch a spirit of offense that then keeps you from seeking the truth or closing yourself off to it altogether

all said in love 

I hope I was on point with something LOL


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 14, 2009)

Irresistible said:


> I dont know if I am on point with what your asking here
> 
> But I wanted to say this, do not concern yourself with the intolerance of others, God himself knows from whence you came and all beliefs instilled in you and what has influenced you, keep seeking him, not the approval OR tolerance of others , nor meshing of the faiths, You just keep YOUR faith and YOUR walk, HE DOES KNOW YOU, and keep seeking him and I gaurantee you will be lead to the truth , all truth, if you seek and ask ,it will be opened to you


 

I get your point.  Twiss is part of an organization that seeks to unify the body of Christ but retain it's own cultural expression.  In order to do that, one has to come to grips with the knowledge that wrongs were committed alongside gross misunderstandings about the culture they sought to evangelize.  His vision is 1 true body, where everyone is free to express his faith through his own culture without the imposition of the white model that has been passed down to oppress.  His is an organization sought to heal all these wounds.


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## Irresistible (Mar 14, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> I get your point.  Twiss is part of an organization that seeks to unify the body of Christ but retain it's own cultural expression.  In order to do that, one has to come to grips with the knowledge that wrongs were committed alongside gross misunderstandings about the culture they sought to evangelize.  His vision is 1 true body, where everyone is free to express his faith through his own culture without the imposition of the white model that has been passed down to oppress.  His is an organization sought to heal all these wounds.


I'm not sure that kind of unity will ever happen,  there are different fundamental beliefs standing in the way

I dont know

Sometimes Rejection is God's protection

if any would reject you,  trust that it is his protection, if they cant just love you and respect you ,  whether you are 'lost' or not,  what you know to be true to you is between you and God to work out as it has been for all of us, he lead us all,  unity isnt needed, only your unity with God is the need always

I know it hurts, but we sometimes have to stand alone,  and realize only some (few) might have the capacity to embrace another on that level.  His vision will probably never happen.....I cant say if thats a bad thing or not,  I can only say let God's will be done


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 14, 2009)

To consistently imply that all white/European people are and were racist and were out to destroy everyone who were not like them is in itself racist. In this country there have ALWAYS been whites who have stood up and fought against bigotry and racism including CHRISTIAN WHITES!!!!. Jesus is the God of white people too not just people of color. That would be like Christians constantly talking about how the Jews killed Jesus and persecuted the early church, murdering the saints of God. We KNOW that it happened but here we fellowship and on focus on issues relevant to our daily lives, what the church does now and the goodness of God. 

It seems as if you would like to have the whites wiped out of Christianity completely, your attitude towards them is so bigoted. Yes we have alot of European influence in Christianity BECAUSE they are the majority here. There is a lot of European culture in almost *everything* in America because of that very fact.

There are more with us than against us. To constantly focus on past sins does not solve any problems. Why not focus on the whites and others who fought against the destruction of the Native people instead of the ones who destroyed. Why not post articles on them?  Why not focus on how Jesus was able to move on the hearts of people to end the bigotry and racism in this country?

You bring alot of negativity into the Christian forum with your threads and posts.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 14, 2009)

Irresistible said:


> I'm not sure that kind of unity will ever happen, there are different fundamental beliefs standing in the way
> 
> I dont know
> 
> ...


 
That's actually not the point here.  It's about a christian model of living based upon individual/different cultural expressions of that faith that differ from the white/Euro model superimposed.  People cannot see the whole picture of the message because their viewpoints are colored by their own types of ethnocentric glasses.  There are many things to be learned from various cultures in the world and as christianity was spread through European dominance, the true message has been blurred..or should I say that the fullness of that message is being hindered.  One example of this would be care of the earth as a christian mandate.  Understanding the Native American respect for Mother Earth and that of Judaism would lend a greater comprehension of the bible in that matter as we are all scrambling now to undo what harm was inflicted on our dying planet by a European mindset of divide and conquer.  Read what Twiss had to say in those quotes on the first post...I think he was brilliant. 

It's not about getting white people to accept a certain model.  At the same time, we are all here together in this world and the community needs to embrace an understanding of different expressions of the faith for deeper comprehension leading to appropriate action.  And actually, this is why so many christians are now learning about Judaism, to learn the context of the origins of the faith to gain deeper understanding into what their faith/religion is in the first place.  It's not really about pain, it's about truth and acceptance and validity of all cultures as creations by One G-d...equal acceptance and not the status quo acceptance of a white model only.  It's about striving for that unity and truth.

I'm not sure if people understand that the European model of christianity held non-white people as soulless beings and it took centuries for wrongs sanctioned by the church to be corrected.  Slavery was definitely one of these issues as were the crusades.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 14, 2009)

Ms.Honey said:


> To consistently imply that all white/European people are and were racist and were out to destroy everyone who were not like them is in itself racist. In this country there have ALWAYS been whites who have stood up and fought against bigotry and racism including CHRISTIAN WHITES!!!!. Jesus is the God of white people too not just people of color. That would be like Christians constantly talking about how the Jews killed Jesus and persecuted the early church, murdering the saints of God. We KNOW that it happened but here we fellowship and on focus on issues relevant to our daily lives, what the church does now and the goodness of God.
> 
> It seems as if you would like to have the whites wiped out of Christianity completely, your attitude towards them is so bigoted. Yes we have alot of European influence in Christianity BECAUSE they are the majority here. There is a lot of European culture in almost *everything* in America because of that very fact.
> 
> ...


 

No, Ms. Honey, I bring issues that the Church is actually dealing with.  Maybe you haven't heard.  Recently, the RCC has apologized to Africans and Native Americans for the mistreatments they have inflicted upon them.  I'm not sure if you realize that taking children from their homes and reeducating them to be White and not Indian, destroying their language and culture, was a policy of Canada and the United States well into the 1980's, with churches at the forefront of the "re-education."  It is a fact.

To say that I'm racist is a blatant attempt to discredit the valid points I have made.  If you had read Richard Twiss's statements, you would have known that he is not racist, and neither am I.  But one cannot push the issues of race and conquest under the guise of "christianity" beneath any carpet of convenience.  You yourself said that churches are segregated by race due to prejudice and you're a member of a congregation that is not multi-ethnic to any large extent.  You do not like my posts, so please abstain from reading them.  I make valid points and bring current church issues to the forefront just as others bring diff. kinds of church issues to the forefront...i.e. fornication of the faithful etc.

I understand your particular point but it is so far from anything that I am saying that it leads me to either believe you are intentionally misquoting and representing me or that you have a little agenda to have me booted.  Look elsewhere.  As I've said before, you have your viewpoints and others have theirs.  I cannot follow your path and you certainly cannot follow mine.  Perhaps I should send in some christian articles about the most segregated hour weekly, church day.  Maybe that will be more appropriate.  

Are you overlooking the fact that there are christian organizations that seek to bring unity and closure to these issues?  Maybe if one dug a little deeper, they'd see that the very people who brought the gospel message to the Americas and to Africans (although, it was law in many places that Blacks were not to practice religion of any kind) did so to superimpose themselves, not to "save" anyone.  Still, the purity of the message was taken.  It's time now to take off the cloak of the European and look deeply into the Jewishly cultured message of the gospel.  Afterall, those were Jews, not Europeans.  Read Twiss, listen to him.  He promotes unity, not hatred.  So do I.


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 14, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> That's actually not the point here. It's about a christian model of living based upon individual/different cultural expressions of that faith that differ from the white/Euro model superimposed. People cannot see the whole picture of the message because their viewpoints are colored by their own types of ethnocentric glasses. There are many things to be learned from various cultures in the world and as christianity was spread through European dominance, the true message has been blurred..or should I say that the fullness of that message is being hindered. One example of this would be care of the earth as a christian mandate. Understanding the Native American respect for Mother Earth and that of Judaism would lend a greater comprehension of the bible in that matter as we are all scrambling now to undo what harm was inflicted on our dying planet. Read what Twiss had to say in those quotes on the first post...I think he was brilliant.
> 
> It's not about getting white people to accept a certain model. At the same time, we are all here together in this world and the community needs to embrace an understanding of different expressions of the faith for deeper understanding. And actually, this is why so many christians are now learning about Judaism, to learn the context of the origins of the faith to gain deeper understanding into what their faith/religion is in the first place. It's not really about pain, it's about truth and acceptance and validity of all cultures as creation by One G-d...equal acceptance and not the status quo acceptance of a white model only. It's about striving for that unity and truth.


 
Where sin abounds grace does much more abound. Romans 5:20 God has NEVER left the church and His hand has never been stilled when it came to His church. He has ALWAYS let His will be known and the message of the gospel is and has always been strong. It has not been diluted as you would like to think. Jesus is Lord and Savior. That is His message and that is what has spread around the world for over two millennia. 

We do NOT need to become Judaistic to understand the meaning of the Word of God, Paul and the other apostles made that CRYSTAL clear in the books of Acts, Hebrews and Romans. That is a distraction of the devil to try and take our focus off of the teachings of Jesus and it won't work, especially in this forum.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 14, 2009)

Ms.Honey said:


> We do NOT need to become Judaistic to understand the meaning of the Word of God, Paul and the other apostles made that CRYSTAL clear in the books of Acts, Hebrews and Romans. That is a distraction of the devil to try and take our focus off of the teachings of Jesus and it won't work, especially in this forum.


 

You have an incredibly simplistic approach to the gospels.  It's a point not well-taken with you.  Perhaps consult a theologian.  I'm sure your minister, if degreed and ordained, did in fact study the judaic origins of the New Testament or the brit hadasha.  Don't worry, nobody is trying to proselytize you.

Oh, by the way, I'm not the Devil neither am I his servant.  Thank you very much.


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 14, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> No, Ms. Honey, I bring issues that the Church is actually dealing with. Maybe you haven't heard. Recently, the RCC has apologized to Africans and Native Americans for the mistreatments they have inflicted upon them. I'm not sure if you realize that taking children from their homes and reeducating them to be White and not Indian, destroying their language and culture, was a policy of Canada and the United States well into the 1980's, with churches at the forefront of the "re-education." It is a fact.
> 
> To say that I'm racist is a blatant attempt to discredit the valid points I have made. If you had read Richard Twiss's statements, you would have known that he is not racist, and neither am I. But one cannot push the issues of race and conquest under the guise of "christianity" beneath any carpet of convenience. You do not like my posts, please abstain from reading them. I make valid points and bring current church issues to the forefront just as others bring diff. kinds of church issues to the forefront...i.e. fornication of the faithful etc.
> 
> I understand your point but it is so far from anything that I am saying and it leads me to either believe you are intentionally misquoting and representing me or that you have reading difficulties.


 
No, I see very well what you are doing. You SAY that you want to bring the truth out about what's going on but your words are deceptive. You are trying to bring another gospel with your threads. Jesus is God. There is no other God. The gospel is strong and pure. Yes there are folks who have abused misusing the Word but that is NOT the church. There has always been those who lurked around God's people trying to throw us off course from the time Jesus walked the earth to the present.


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## Ramya (Mar 14, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> You have an incredibly simplistic approach to the gospels.  It's a point not well-taken with you.  Perhaps consult a theologian.  I'm sure your minister, if degreed and ordained, did in fact study the judaic origins of the New Testament or the brit hadasha.  Don't worry, nobody is trying to proselytize you.
> 
> Oh, by the way, I'm not the Devil neither am I his servant.  Thank you very much.



And yet you fail to see the negativity in your posts here. The argumentative and baiting spirit that you bring to this forum is not missed and it is not victorious.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 14, 2009)

I'd like to say something else, there are diff. kinds of christian in this forum.  There are messianics, catholics, orthodox, pentecostals, COGIC, you name it, it's on here.  But the way that anything that is not Black protestant-represented is shot down is an injustice to the many people who would LIKE to post their particular christian views here.  Just know that not everyone relies upon the latest popular t.v. evangelists for their knowledge of the scriptures.  Some of the folks here live that faith just as the ancients did, day by day, with the exact same liturgies of the past.  Not everyone is the same but to act as though one side is better than another is a disservice to your faith.  Truly, nothing I've said here is new or unknown to apologetics.  Shrugs.


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## HeChangedMyName (Mar 14, 2009)

*Re: Pastor Richard Twiss on Christian Unity*

Ok, i have been trying to figure out the best way to reply. 

Here goes.

It is not Christianity that has a problem.  It is the people delivering the message.  Twiss mentioned something about Christianity NOT being good news for native americans.  The reality is that the methods used to spread it were the part that wasn't good.  It wasn't the message, but the messenger.

That is human nature.  People are imperfect, even in delivering a perfect message of salvation through a perfect Messiah.  

As far as unity within Christianity it is possible and I think it exists, the reality though is that while we can all be unified in our belief in Jesus Christ as our savior from this World, it doesn't mean that we will all get along perfectly and hold hand singing happy happy joy joy songs.

God made us different for a reason.  My view is that it helps us grow.  If we were all the same, then we would never learn and grow and expand.  As a Christian, I can love you and stand in agreement with you on God's will and with Jesus as our foundation, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we would agree and be in alignment on all other issues.

In a perfect place that would be the case, but we all know this World is far from perfect.

Like Irresistable mentioned.  Don't spend too much of your time on focusing on people and their views and actions.  If you keep chasing God, he'll lead you where you need to be and lead you to do whatever he has purposed you to do.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 14, 2009)

Ms.Honey said:


> No, I see very well what you are doing. You SAY that you want to bring the truth out about what's going on but your words are deceptive. You are trying to bring another gospel with your threads. Jesus is God. There is no other God. The gospel is strong and pure. Yes there are folks who have abused misusing the Word but that is NOT the church. There has always been those who lurked around God's people trying to throw us off course from the time Jesus walked the earth to the present.


 

Sigh, in other words, I'm asking a QUESTION about how some people view the gospel message and how it's been spread in the world.  And yes, the church is implicated in the misuse of the gospel message.  *No*, it doesn't mean every single person.  But the church *IS *made up of different cultures.  Can't expect everyone to see things exactly the same way...except for the basic tenets of the faith (I hope you read this twice...note, I said "basic tenets of the faith" so please don't misconstrue).

I don't understand why you keep alluding to me as a person of deception.  How would I deceive you?  What, am I a witch conjuring up something or other?  There's really not a demon around every single corner MsHoney unless you are actively looking for it.  Try to see the positives.  

And no, I don't have any other gospel to bring.  My questions have been on point.  I want to know if people have ever thought about those aspects of the faith.   If you are to spread the gospel and you encounter people who see these issues, how effective are you going to be if you don't address them as they are?  

Just stop it Ms.Honey, please.  Honestly, you come off as incredibly...sigh, I don't know...just don't know.  I don't hate you.  I know you hate me, though.  It's quite evident.  And accusatory...devil, deception...lolol!  Note, I'm largely trying to avoid any encounter with you if possible.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 14, 2009)

alabama said:


> And yet you fail to see the negativity in your posts here. The argumentative and baiting spirit that you bring to this forum is not missed and it is not victorious.


 

I disagree.  Goodbye, I will leave you.  I thought this was about issues within christianity...all the issues, not just the feel-good ones.  I apologize.


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 14, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> You have an incredibly simplistic approach to the gospels. It's a point not well-taken with you. Perhaps consult a theologian. I'm sure your minister, if degreed and ordained, did in fact study the judaic origins of the New Testament or the brit hadasha. Don't worry, nobody is trying to proselytize you.
> 
> Oh, by the way, I'm not the Devil neither am I his servant. Thank you very much.


 
You are not the devil but you do have a victim mentality. You focus on the negative in your posts and threads never the goodness of God. Never  how He has blessed the Native Americans. Do you believe that God has blessed the Native Americans in America or do you think that they are eternal victims of the white man without the hope of the help of Jesus?

The gospel message IS a simple one. Jesus is Lord and He is God. If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you shall be saved. Romans10:9 It's the message of hope that we preach not superstitions like not being able to spell out the word God but instead G-d so we don't blaspheme His name. We are not bound but free.

  We have been made free of the ordinances and the purity laws that were needful before Jesus came and brought truth into the earth. We have been freed from the bondage of the OT and are free to walk in the newness of life. We are no longer bound. This is not a new concept that you are trying to bring here. Paul vehemently opposed the thought that the gentiles no longer gentiles but we are now the church of God be made to practice Judaism. Again read the books of Acts, Romans and Hebrews.


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## HeChangedMyName (Mar 14, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Sigh, in other words, I'm asking a QUESTION about how some people view the gospel message and how it's been spread in the world.  And yes, the church is implicated in the misuse of the gospel message.  *No*, it doesn't mean every single person.  But the church *IS *made up of different cultures.  Can't expect everyone to see things exactly the same way...except for the basic tenets of the faith (I hope you read this twice...note, I said "basic tenets of the faith" so please don't misconstrue).
> 
> I don't understand why you keep alluding to me as a person of deception.  How would I deceive you?  What, am I a witch conjuring up something or other?  There's really not a demon around every single corner MsHoney unless you are actively looking for it.  Try to see the positives.
> 
> ...




Ok.  I think I got it.  G, do you understand that there is a difference between the church and the Church.  The church has mislead folks of all different races and nationalities for years.  However, the Church is Jesus Christ.  We are his body and only seek to do his will and not our own.  the Church is submitted to the Will of God as prescribed in his Holy Bible.  the church seeks to gain something and teaches about gaining something.  The Church understands that there is NOTHING on this blue earth that is more precious that the gift of Jesus the Christ.


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 14, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Sigh, in other words, I'm asking a QUESTION about how some people view the gospel message and how it's been spread in the world. And yes, the church is implicated in the misuse of the gospel message. *No*, it doesn't mean every single person. But the church *IS *made up of different cultures. Can't expect everyone to see things exactly the same way...except for the basic tenets of the faith (I hope you read this twice...note, I said "basic tenets of the faith" so please don't misconstrue).
> 
> I don't understand why you keep alluding to me as a person of deception. How would I deceive you? What, am I a witch conjuring up something or other? There's really not a demon around every single corner MsHoney unless you are actively looking for it. Try to see the positives.
> 
> ...


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## Ramya (Mar 14, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> I disagree.  Goodbye, I will leave you.  I thought this was about issues within christianity...all the issues, not just the feel-good ones.  I apologize.





> Updated Board Rules:
> 
> The purpose of this particular forum is to allow believers of Jesus Christ to fellowship together. Its not political, controversial, or a means for debating. Any post that do not pertain to spiritual advancement, encouragement, etc. will be removed. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.



I advise you to familiarize yourself with this forum's rules.


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## HeChangedMyName (Mar 14, 2009)

Let us Pray.  Bow your heads.

ETA:
For our struggle is not against human opponents, but against rulers, authorities, cosmic powers in the darkness around us, and evil spiritual forces in the heavenly realm.

I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 14, 2009)

Ms.Honey said:


> You are not the devil but you do have a victim mentality. You focus on the negative in your posts and threads never the goodness of God. Never how He has blessed the Native Americans. Do you believe that God has blessed the Native Americans in America or do you think that they are eternal victims of the white man without the hope of the help of Jesus?
> 
> The gospel message IS a simple one. Jesus is Lord and He is God. If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you shall be saved. Romans10:9 It's the message of hope that we preach not superstitions like not being able to spell out the word God but instead G-d so we don't blaspheme His name. We are not bound but free.
> 
> We have been made free of the ordinances and the purity laws that were needful before Jesus came and brought truth into the earth. We have been freed from the bondage of the OT and are free to walk in the newness of life. We are no longer bound. This is not a new concept that you are trying to bring here. Paul vehemently opposed the thought that the gentiles no longer gentiles but we are now the church of God be made to practice Judaism. Again read the books of Acts, Romans and Hebrews.


 

Okay, what about the people here exposing the name-it/claim-it deception of the church?  ARe they being negative?  Washer, is he negative?  All of that was spoken of here.  I forget, this is largely a Black list and most of you, I suspect, do not worship in a multi-cultural environment.  I'm simply bringing up the issues that affect my community and asking opinions of a larger community to see if there is anyone who has dealt with or knows of these issues.  I now understand that most of you wish to remain segregated.  

But if someone were to ask these questions concerning these to say, a Hindu, how would that person give an appropriate response, not being a christian?  Where else to ask of them?  WITHIN the christian forum.  And I do know that all of the posts were not read and not comprehended...perhaps due to discomfort with the issues.  From that... miscontrued meanings.  That distresses me for a variety of reasons.  Where else to ask of these?  

Did you even read Twiss?  He's what they would call "annointed."  But you are not interested.  That's okay.    Well, that's is.  I can truthfully say that there have been a few deep enough to comprehend where I am coming from with this line of questioning and they have not been uncomfortable with it because they understand.  I couldn't expect it to be everyone.  I learned a lot here, though.  Some, I will take with me down the road.


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 14, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> I'd like to say something else, there are diff. kinds of christian in this forum. There are messianics, catholics, orthodox, pentecostals, COGIC, you name it, it's on here. But the way that anything that is not Black protestant-represented is shot down is an injustice to the many people who would LIKE to post their particular christian views here. Just know that not everyone relies upon the latest popular t.v. evangelists for their knowledge of the scriptures. Some of the folks here live that faith just as the ancients did, day by day, with the exact same liturgies of the past. Not everyone is the same but to act as though one side is better than another is a disservice to your faith. Truly, nothing I've said here is new or unknown to apologetics. Shrugs.


 
We are well aware of the dynamics of the Christian forum thank you. We are not all AA here either. Christians are free to post here and they know that. It's just that when Tobias and Sanballat try to come and distract us from repairing the breach and restoring each other that issues come to play and that has been happening a LOT in these past few weeks.


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 14, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Sigh, in other words, I'm asking a QUESTION about how some people view the gospel message and how it's been spread in the world. And yes, the church is implicated in the misuse of the gospel message. *No*, it doesn't mean every single person. But the church *IS *made up of different cultures. Can't expect everyone to see things exactly the same way...except for the basic tenets of the faith (I hope you read this twice...note, I said "basic tenets of the faith" so please don't misconstrue).
> 
> I don't understand why you keep alluding to me as a person of deception. How would I deceive you? What, am I a witch conjuring up something or other? There's really not a demon around every single corner MsHoney unless you are actively looking for it. Try to see the positives.
> 
> ...


 
Again, the victim mentality. I don't hate you but I believe it's easier for you to belive that to continue to be so negative in your posts and threads. You want to think everyone hates or dislikes you, the members of your church dislike you, I hate you, the white man is out to get you, first the white church now the black church is trying to suppress you etc. etc. 

Stop focusing on the negative aspects, don't deny but stop FOCUSING on the negative and you will be able to see the many positive things the church has to offer.


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## HeChangedMyName (Mar 14, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Okay, what about the people here exposing the name-it/claim-it deception of the church?  ARe they being negative?  Washer, is he negative?  All of that was spoken of here.  I forget, this is largely a Black list and most of you, *I suspect, do not worship in a multi-cultural environment*.  I'm simply bringing up the issues that affect my community and asking opinions of a larger community to see if there is anyone who has dealt with or knows of these issues.  I now understand that most of you wish to remain segregated.
> 
> But if someone were to ask these questions concerning these to say, a Hindu, how would that person give an appropriate response, not being a christian?  Where else to ask of them?  WITHIN the christian forum.  And I do know that all of the posts were not read and not comprehended...perhaps due to discomfort with the issues.  From that... miscontrued meanings.  That distresses me for a variety of reasons.  Where else to ask of these?
> 
> Did you even read Twiss?  He's what they would call "annointed."  But you are not interested.  That's okay.    Well, that's is.  I can truthfully say that there have been a few deep enough to comprehend where I am coming from with this line of questioning and they have not been uncomfortable with it because they understand.  I couldn't expect it to be everyone.  I learned a lot here, though.  Some, I will take with me down the road.




to the bolded: true worship isn't dependent upon the surroundings, whether cultural, or racial because true worship seeks God and not inclusion within a group of people


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 14, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Okay, what about the people here exposing the name-it/claim-it deception of the church? ARe they being negative? Washer, is he negative? All of that was spoken of here. I forget, this is largely a Black list and most of you, I suspect, do not worship in a multi-cultural environment. I'm simply bringing up the issues that affect my community and asking opinions of a larger community to see if there is anyone who has dealt with or knows of these issues. I now understand that most of you wish to remain segregated.
> 
> But if someone were to ask these questions concerning these to say, a Hindu, how would that person give an appropriate response, not being a christian? Where else to ask of them? WITHIN the christian forum. And I do know that all of the posts were not read and not comprehended...perhaps due to discomfort with the issues. From that... miscontrued meanings. That distresses me for a variety of reasons. Where else to ask of these?
> 
> Did you even read Twiss? He's what they would call "annointed." But you are not interested. That's okay. Well, that's is. I can truthfully say that there have been a few deep enough to comprehend where I am coming from with this line of questioning and they have not been uncomfortable with it because they understand. I couldn't expect it to be everyone. I learned a lot here, though. Some, I will take with me down the road.


 
Can you REALLY not see the difference between a person being uncomfortable about some new stuff happening at work and you constantly posting about what the the church (we) have done to the NA's in the past. You're not asking questions your trying to call us to the carpet over something WE (the sisters on this forum) had nothing to do with. Yes we're aware of the atrocities but can you ONCE say SOMETHING positive about Jesus?


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## HeChangedMyName (Mar 14, 2009)

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.


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## HeChangedMyName (Mar 14, 2009)

Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.


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## HeChangedMyName (Mar 14, 2009)

Remember the words I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.


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## HeChangedMyName (Mar 14, 2009)

And Jesus answered and said to him, “It has been said,  ‘You shall not  tempt the LORD your God.’”


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 14, 2009)

1Peter 1:21 Who by Him(Jesus) do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 14, 2009)

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.  

Amen!!!!!!


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## Irresistible (Mar 14, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> That's actually not the point here.  It's about a christian model of living based upon individual/different cultural expressions of that faith that differ from the white/Euro model superimposed.  People cannot see the whole picture of the message because their viewpoints are colored by their own types of ethnocentric glasses.  There are many things to be learned from various cultures in the world and as christianity was spread through European dominance, the true message has been blurred..or should I say that the fullness of that message is being hindered.  One example of this would be care of the earth as a christian mandate.  Understanding the Native American respect for Mother Earth and that of Judaism would lend a greater comprehension of the bible in that matter as we are all scrambling now to undo what harm was inflicted on our dying planet by a European mindset of divide and conquer.  Read what Twiss had to say in those quotes on the first post...I think he was brilliant.
> 
> It's not about getting white people to accept a certain model.  At the same time, we are all here together in this world and the community needs to embrace an understanding of different expressions of the faith for deeper comprehension leading to appropriate action.  And actually, this is why so many christians are now learning about Judaism, to learn the context of the origins of the faith to gain deeper understanding into what their faith/religion is in the first place.  It's not really about pain, it's about truth and acceptance and validity of all cultures as creations by One G-d...equal acceptance and not the status quo acceptance of a white model only.  It's about striving for that unity and truth.
> 
> I'm not sure if people understand that the European model of christianity held non-white people as soulless beings and it took centuries for wrongs sanctioned by the church to be corrected.  Slavery was definitely one of these issues as were the crusades.


I'm so lost

and couldnt understand why people were so rejecting of what you were saying

but now I see there is an issue and hang up of 'white Christianity'  , what is that anyway?  I guess it has to to do with your being of indian ancestory and you feel they imposed christianity on your people , well heck it was my people too,  There is no such thing as white Christianity,  This is a stumbling block for you it seems,  I dont know what else to say.  Just seek God dont get hung up on such things 

sweetie,  you cant make railing accusations about whats in anyone's heart if you have hatred in yours over a skin color,   start there.  thats the plank in your eye while you see the speck in another

I cant get past that point,   of whites did this or that,  as  a whole race and a whole people and it applying today , that will very well be something in your heart that will keep you from God,  I pray he heals your heart from the pain and anger and whatever else is the stumbling block for you between where you are and Christianity

and I still LOVE YOU!


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## Irresistible (Mar 14, 2009)

GOD IS NOT WHITE OR RED OR BLACK

that is all

so who cares about all this white imposed stuff, I dont get it girl

sorry

God loves you and white people

LOL

Dang I'm just at a loss as to what to say-I didnt know that was what you were really saying

it kinda hurts actually

your view is as limited as your accusing others of having, even more so, nobody is on here talking about skin color and race and what not

He is the God that rules and reigns over all,  I dont care what you mix in there, HE IS STILL THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD

and he aint worried about all this-most of it went over my head now anyway


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## Ramya (Mar 14, 2009)

^^^ I was wondering if you actually read the whole thing first Isis


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## Irresistible (Mar 14, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> You have an incredibly simplistic approach to the gospels.  It's a point not well-taken with you.  Perhaps consult a theologian.  I'm sure your minister, if degreed and ordained, did in fact study the judaic origins of the New Testament or the brit hadasha.  Don't worry, nobody is trying to proselytize you.
> 
> Oh, by the way, I'm not the Devil neither am I his servant.  Thank you very much.


whoa and wow

this just needs to stop

its not producing any fruit at all

not at all


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## Irresistible (Mar 14, 2009)

alabama said:


> ^^^ I was wondering if you actually read the whole thing first Isis


I dont know its like she says alot of truth and I felt she was offended,  but I missed that whole white people thing,  I guess until then it was under the radar for me, I didnt catch it,  I understand her point, but its pointless all at the same time

I will say this to you directly HANNA you are making your own accusations of other's hearts but you cant when you have this issue in yours,  you say that these others will keep many from LOVE and TRUTH,  I dont see where throwing in this 'white thing' is leading anyone to LOVE OR TRUTH, it is in fact a hate message when its all said and done, I mean for all the good you say, once you say something against a whole race with something other than LOVE in your heart, your then preaching to a rock because your heart is as hard as that, or at least thats how it can and will be percieved

so I ask you, where is the LOVE in all this? what are you getting at exactly , cause I can hear you on some, but I'm lost on this white people thing


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## Irresistible (Mar 14, 2009)

ok this is a spirit of confusion

and I dont say that to accuse, I say it because it is in fact bringing confusion, and many are feeling it

I understand preaching LOVE but not preaching LOVE with some HATE in with it

for the intolerance your accusing others of having, you have your own

I apologize for getting confused in this confusion

I just dont want to partake anymore

its not pretty at all


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## Irresistible (Mar 14, 2009)

@Hanna

Can I ask you to please consider taking each person that is a Christian on an individual basis , not grouping them as a whole,  by how some might have hurt you,  can I also ask that you consider not seeing one whole race accountable for the sins of some,  Can I also ask you seriously consider is there true unity in your message, when it so negative against this so called white Christianity,  Can I ask you to consider to check your heart on where you are being offended and heal and check your heart on where you might be offending, can I ask you most of all to consider what you might be hurting over or slighted over,  that you might be indeed now dishing out the same wounds, most of all can I ask you to consider that I am NO KNOW IT ALL, that my heart is sincerely reaching out to you in love , trying to figure out what is going on, and mostly can I ask that you pray for God's answer in this all.  

that is all

love you!


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 14, 2009)

Irresistible said:


> G
> 
> Dang I'm just at a loss as to what to say-*I didnt know that was what you were really saying*
> 
> ...


 

I wasn't.


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## Irresistible (Mar 14, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> I wasn't.


ok I am so lost girl, I just really am now

I just love you and this is starting to just hurt 


I just will back down,  I am seriously lost now


you were bringing up something about white Christianity right? I mean I SAW it in your post!


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 14, 2009)

Irresistible said:


> @Hanna
> 
> Can I ask you to please consider taking each person that is a Christian on an individual basis , not grouping them as a whole, by how some might have hurt you, can I also ask that you consider not seeing one whole race accountable for the sins of some, Can I also ask you seriously consider is there true unity in your message, when it so negative against this so called white Christianity, Can I ask you to consider to check your heart on where you are being offended and heal and check your heart on where you might be offending, can I ask you most of all to consider what you might be hurting over or slighted over, that you might be indeed now dishing out the same wounds, most of all can I ask you to consider that I am NO KNOW IT ALL, that my heart is sincerely reaching out to you in love , trying to figure out what is going on, and mostly can I ask that you pray for God's answer in this all.
> 
> ...


 
All I can say is that before posting a response to anything, please read the supporting documentation.  It was clear as water for those that actually _read_ it.  Perhaps people are not that privy to certain history...I dunno really, I thought it was common knowledge. 

 My question was very _specific_ and certainly not an invite to accuse me of racism and some supposed self-perceived "superiority" of mix.  It's better to read it and pass it rather than post from another's reponse who _didn't bother to read it_...and everything is absolutely convoluted and miscontrued.  Perhaps it would have been better to ask for clarification...except, it was very evident in the materials.  Talk about accusations.  I thought you knew me better than that.


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## Irresistible (Mar 14, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> All I can say is that before posting a response to anything, please read the supporting documentation.  It was clear as water for those that actually _read_ it.  Perhaps people are not that privy to certain history...I dunno really, I thought it was common knowledge.
> 
> My question was very _specific_ and certainly not an invite to accuse me of racism and some supposed self-perceived "superiority" of mix.  It's better to read it and pass it rather than post from another's reponse who _didn't bother to read it_...and everything is absolutely convoluted and miscontrued.  Perhaps it would have been better to ask for clarification...except, it was very evident in the materials.  Talk about accusations.  I thought you knew me better than that.


 well truly I was looking at your wording, if I mistook your wording , then forgive me

this is actually really hurting me, I pray it stops, I DO LOVE YOU

what is going on?

I'm like seriously losing the whole point now.  I apologize to you , I dont intend to accuse, I just am at a loss with what I saw you say

I'm sorry if I DONT understand but I do love you


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 14, 2009)

Irresistible said:


> ok I am so lost girl, I just really am now
> 
> I just love you and this is starting to just hurt
> 
> ...


 
An emphatic "NO."  I was asking about opinions about Twiss' organization.  When christianity was brought here, it was done under the guise of divide and conquer and murder.  The message still got here because there are people who saw the purity of the message.  For others to comprehend the message...they will need to see beyond those who were using it with ulterior motive.  I mean, I'd have to write a dissertation on the history of this all...and I ain't gonna do that.  Just think "crusaders" or something along that line.  It's hard to see the love of christ when people are brandishing weapons of steel at your neck and threatening extermination.  This is the impasse that Twiss often refers to.  It's historical and it's a barrier to the gospel message because that's what people SEE.  They don't see the love of christ, they see the people who misuse the message for their political and economic gain...as was done in the past.  Note. he said that their message was to "cut your hair, stop dancing, use European instruments so they can be good christians."  And this idea was alive and well right into the 1980's.  That was fact, hon, sorry.  

Just imagine, Aboriginals of Australia never being able to pick up a didgeridoo and singing British hymns only because no one thinks their culture can support a valid belief and worship of Christ.  This is the message .  I was asking for examples in the AA church...as in, where's the African expressions?  Again, Twiss is saying essentially that there are communities that NEED to worship, in their cultural expression, the gospel, the Christ and not through the European model or else they feel disrespected.  I don't know if people truly and fully comprehend this...I'll just let it go.   Triple, quadruple sigh....  I'm only explaining because you feel offended and that was never my intent.

As far as "white christianity" which is not something I was saying, well, there is a European type of worship and there is an African one.  Anybody besides me ever attend Ethiopian Orthodox church or Egyptian Coptic Orthodox services?  The model is definitely African from a Jewish model and is the closest to the original ancient faith on earth.  They aren't changing their style either...well, there are those who are trying to get them to do it but they are steadfast to their traditions.  Tis all...let it go..


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 14, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> All I can say is that before posting a response to anything, please read the supporting documentation. It was clear as water for those that actually _read_ it. Perhaps people are not that privy to certain history...I dunno really, I thought it was common knowledge.
> 
> My question was very _specific_ and certainly not an invite to accuse me of racism and some supposed self-perceived "superiority" of mix. It's better to read it and pass it rather than post from another's reponse who _didn't bother to read it_...and everything is absolutely convoluted and miscontrued. Perhaps it would have been better to ask for clarification...except, it was very evident in the materials. Talk about accusations. I thought you knew me better than that.


 
We did read and you made yourself very clear in your posts. They are very negative whether you're aware of it or not. You make the church out to be the enemy of the NA INSTEAD of pointing out that SOME misused the gospel and abused the NA. We are aware of that practice, we've suffered under it as AA BUT one thing we didn't do? We didn't blame Jesus and the church. We blamed the ones who did it not the whole church.


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## Irresistible (Mar 14, 2009)

I am seriously confused

Hanna what your saying does come across as anti christian or anti white , I dont know I'm lost in the msg now and I apologize for anything I misunderstood

this hurts

I just want it to stop

God make it stop!


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## Irresistible (Mar 14, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> An emphatic "NO."  I was asking about opinions about Twiss' organization.  When christianity was brought here, it was done under the guise of divide and conquer and murder.  The message still got here because there are people who saw the purity of the message.  For others to comprehend the message...they will need to see beyond those who were using it with ulterior motive.  I mean, I'd have to write a dissertation on the history of this all...and I ain't gonna do that.  Just think "crusaders" or something along that line.  It's hard to see the love of christ when people are brandishing weapons of steel at your neck and threatening extermination.  This is the impasse that Twiss often refers to.  It's historical and it's a barrier to the gospel message because that's what people SEE.  They don't see the love of christ, they see the people who misuse the message for their political and economic gain...as was done in the past.  Note. he said that their message was to "cut your hair, stop dancing, use European instruments so they can be good christians."  That was fact, hon, sorry.  Just imagine, Aboriginals of Australia never being able to pick up a didgeridoo and singing British hymns only because no one thinks their culture can support a valid belief and worship of Christ.  This is the message .  I was asking for examples in the AA church...as in, where's the African expressions?  Again, Twiss is saying essentially that there are communities that NEED to worship, in their cultural expression, the gospel, the Christ and not through the European model or else they feel disrespected.  I don't know if people truly and fully comprehend this...I'll just let it go.   Triple, quadruple sigh....  I'm only explaining because you feel offended and that was never my intent.


I mean I know all your saying happened is true and horrific.  but whats the answer? I do understand RELIGION is not of God,  but relationship is, I mean is that the point your making?  Because if so I TRULY agree, I am sorry if your msg was lost on me,  I am sorry if I saw something that wasnt there,  I am just lost with this

I do know your heart, thats why I am hurting that things are going like this and coming across like this and being taken like this

I just want it to stop


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 14, 2009)

Irresistible said:


> I mean I know all your saying happened is true and horrific. but whats the answer?


 
That's why I asked the questions and opened it up to dialogue.  BTW, to the other poster, I'm not accusing every believer that ever was.  If we can all ask this country to stop it's assault on Iraq when most of us have done no harm, then the *body* of Christ can certainly come to the rescue and correct _collective_ wrongs for a certain community within it.  Questioning does not accusation make.


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## Irresistible (Mar 14, 2009)

well I am determined to end this post with an I love you

and I do truly and still will past what I am not understanding, I will not sit in judgment of what I am not understanding with your posts, I apologize and please just know that from the bottom of my heart ,  there is still nothing but love, we might not be able to talk about this in full and I get all of what your saying , or understand, but I STILL love you and we can talk about hair girl 

I jest , but seriously I will not let this put a rift between us or in my heart

again I love you

all my love girl!


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 14, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> That's why I asked the questions and opened it up to dialogue. BTW, to the other poster, I'm not accusing every believer that ever was. If we can all ask this country to stop it's assault on Iraq when most of us have done no harm, then the *body* of Christ can certainly come to the rescue and correct _collective_ wrongs for a certain community within it. Questioning does not accusation make.


 
It's not the question but the approach that many find fault with. You come at us like Christians are the filth of the earth because some were racist and then say, "So let me ask y'all this?" How do you expect us to receive that? We ARE the church. You're talking about us and our people.

It's like you don't want us to be able to relate. Like your hurt is worse than our hurts, like the pain of NA's is far more severe than the Africans who were taken from their lands and suffered slavery here for over 400 years and then segregation. You post as if we didn't suffer at their hands as AA and other people of color also. 

 They have apologized. We've forgiven them. We can't hold them accountable for what their ancestors did for the rest of their lives.They are are brothers and some are ashamed for what their people did. Forgive them. That's what Jesus instructs us to do. Vengance is His not ours.


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## Irresistible (Mar 14, 2009)

Ms.Honey said:


> It's not the question but the approach that many find fault with. You come at us like Christians are the filth of the earth because some were racist and then say, "So let me ask y'all this?" How do you expect us to receive that? We ARE the church. You're talking about us and our people.
> 
> It's like you don't want us to be able to relate. Like your hurt is worse than our hurts, like the pain of NA's is far more severe than the Africans who were taken from their lands and suffered slavery here for over 400 years and then segregation. You post as if we didn't suffer at their hands as AA and other people of color also.
> 
> They have apologized. We've forgiven them. We can't hold them accountable for what their ancestors did for the rest of their lives.They are are brothers and some are ashamed for what their people did. Forgive them. That's what Jesus instructs us to do. Vengance is His not ours.


@ Hanna , I pray you find forgiveness in your heart for the horrific acts done to NA's,  and it was indeed horrific!  I pray you find peace and healing over it all, somehow.  There is nothing 'we' can do about what others did, but God is still on the throne, everyone will have their day of accountability,  for their own sins, not the sins of others as a whole, sorry for the pain,  and yes it happened to AA's too and its horrific,  we need healing though, we cant live in that now,  God is here now with us today and able to make ways for us and heal us and deliver us,  and he is faithful and just,  leave the blood on others hands to him, and the wounds to souls to him.  He will be God all by himself! you just let go and heal girl 

you have every right to your process and path to healing to truth to forgivness to love!


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## Irresistible (Mar 14, 2009)

It never was a skin color

it was the enemy of souls at work in them all along


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## Irresistible (Mar 14, 2009)

The true Gospel is LOVE and TRUTH

and would never commit such horrific acts

just because someone says they come in the name of the LORD doesnt mean they really do/did,  but the sins of those people are on them alone, not anyone else


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 14, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> That's why I asked the questions and opened it up to dialogue. BTW, to the other poster, I'm not accusing every believer that ever was. If we can all ask this country to stop it's assault on Iraq when most of us have done no harm, then the *body* of Christ can certainly come to the rescue and correct _collective_ wrongs for a certain community within it. Questioning does not accusation make.


 
Native Americans owned slaves. Have they made a public apology? Are they trying today to right the wrongs they've inficted upon African Americans for centuries?

What should AA's expect from NA's?


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## Almaz (Mar 15, 2009)

Thank you becuase you have made a lot of sense. GV do not concern youself with people who are itolerant of who you are G-d knows and for the other screw em



Irresistible said:


> I dont know if I am on point with what your asking here
> 
> But I wanted to say this, do not concern yourself with the intolerance of others, God himself knows from whence you came and all beliefs instilled in you and what has influenced you, keep seeking him, not the approval OR tolerance of others , nor meshing of the faiths, You just keep YOUR faith and YOUR walk, HE DOES KNOW YOU, and keep seeking him and I gaurantee you will be lead to the truth , all truth, if you seek and ask ,it will be opened to you
> 
> ...


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 15, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Thank you becuase you have made a lot of sense. GV do not concern youself with people who are itolerant of who you are G-d knows and for the other screw em


 
Why do you post here almaz? This forum is for Christians and those who want a Christian perspective? I among others welcomed you to the Christian forum when you started your thread. Although I didn't and still do not think your thread was combative as some suggested, I did pick up on your glee at clowning the JW woman because of her lack of knowledge. 

You said you had a question, asked and answered. Why do you continue to lurk here? Are you seeking Christian fellowship because that's what this forum was made for? I highly doubt that you want to commune with us so what is it?


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## divya (Mar 15, 2009)

Wow...I've missed quite a bit.


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## Ramya (Mar 15, 2009)

divya said:


> Wow...I've missed quite a bit.



what is that delicious looking thing in your siggy


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## divya (Mar 15, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Trini!!!  I used to live in P.R.  Friends from Trini and Venezuela...all over, actually.  How I miss it.  I get your point.  My family is 2-nation but we're basically the same peoples lol.  Thanks for your responses.



Nice...Puerto Rico is beautiful.  I haven't made to Venezuela yet but need to. It's so close to Trinidad. When you say 2-nation, you mean the First Nations (Native American) and Black American?


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## divya (Mar 15, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> That's actually not the point here.  It's about a christian model of living based upon individual/different cultural expressions of that faith that differ from the white/Euro model superimposed.  People cannot see the whole picture of the message because their viewpoints are colored by their own types of ethnocentric glasses.  There are many things to be learned from various cultures in the world and as christianity was spread through European dominance, the true message has been blurred..or should I say that the fullness of that message is being hindered.  One example of this would be care of the earth as a christian mandate.  Understanding the Native American respect for Mother Earth and that of Judaism would lend a greater comprehension of the bible in that matter as we are all scrambling now to undo what harm was inflicted on our dying planet by a European mindset of divide and conquer.  Read what Twiss had to say in those quotes on the first post...I think he was brilliant.
> 
> It's not about getting white people to accept a certain model.  At the same time, we are all here together in this world and the community needs to embrace an understanding of different expressions of the faith for deeper comprehension leading to appropriate action.  And actually, this is why so many christians are now learning about Judaism, to learn the context of the origins of the faith to gain deeper understanding into what their faith/religion is in the first place.  It's not really about pain, it's about truth and acceptance and validity of all cultures as creations by One G-d...equal acceptance and not the status quo acceptance of a white model only.  It's about striving for that unity and truth.
> 
> I'm not sure if people understand that the European model of christianity held non-white people as soulless beings and it took centuries for wrongs sanctioned by the church to be corrected.  Slavery was definitely one of these issues as were the crusades.



I would like to make a few statements here. The Holy Spirit lends comprehension of the Scriptures, of the character and purpose of God.  Regardless of what faith one may profess, it is the same Holy Spirit that reveals anything about God Himself. So I cannot agree that understanding the N.A. respect for the earth or Judaism will necessarily or automatically lend greater comprehension of the Bible, when the Bible is God’s Holy Word. What is necessary is a heart that is open and willing to learn whatever the Holy Spirit reveals, regardless of the means the Holy Spirit uses. God is not inhibited by the actions of Europeans or any other group. Ultimately, it is we as humans who inhibit ourselves and each other. God reveals and works with us individually, revealing things in His time as He knows is best for us. 

A number of Christians have _long_ known about the Jews and Judaism. On this, I will speak from the branch of my faith.  You must understand that from the perspective of some, the experience of the Jews represent an example and an significant part of the bigger picture of God’s plan of salvation. That is the context within which some of us, including myself, understand the Jewish experience and Judaism.  However, only simply cannot only look to the experience of the Jews in order to understand our faith and religion. Christianity did not begin or end with the Jews, because God’s plan of salvation began long before. The all-knowing God understood the implications of a fallen angel and those who fell with him and what would ensue. So the plan of salvation was born. 

God is the truth and it’s about coming into that truth regardless of culture or language etc. We must be open to all that God reveals so that we, His bride (the church), will be ready for the coming of the Bridegroom.  Regardless of the actions of many Europeans of the past and other groups who committed atrocities upon other peoples, God is in control and will have the final word.  When we focus on God, we understand that all of our experiences are valid because He believes it so.  That is why we all – provided we accept and follow Him - will be represented in the Kingdom.

Hope you understand.


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## divya (Mar 15, 2009)

alabama said:


> what is that delicious looking thing in your siggy



Oops, I took it out. It's called _doubles_. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doubles_(food)


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## Almaz (Mar 15, 2009)

Hey listen I have just as much right to be here and to learn as much as anybody else.  Who are YOU to say such a thing. I don't find glee in this and please refrain from saying such things.

Thank you





Ms.Honey said:


> Why do you post here almaz? This forum is for Christians and those who want a Christian perspective? I among others welcomed you to the Christian forum when you started your thread. Although I didn't and still do not think your thread was combative as some suggested, I did pick up on your glee at clowning the JW woman because of her lack of knowledge.
> 
> You said you had a question, asked and answered. Why do you continue to lurk here? Are you seeking Christian fellowship because that's what this forum was made for? I highly doubt that you want to commune with us so what is it?


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## HeChangedMyName (Mar 15, 2009)

Well.  I am still praying on this one.


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## divya (Mar 15, 2009)

Irresistible said:


> I mean I know all your saying happened is true and horrific.  but whats the answer? *I do understand RELIGION is not of God, * but relationship is, I mean is that the point your making?  Because if so I TRULY agree, I am sorry if your msg was lost on me,  I am sorry if I saw something that wasnt there,  I am just lost with this
> 
> I do know your heart, thats why I am hurting that things are going like this and coming across like this and being taken like this
> 
> I just want it to stop



May I, in love, offer an Scriptural perspective?  *True religion is of God. *

*James 1:27* - _Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world._

This is one of my favorite scriptures in the Word - just made it my siggy again.  The issue is not with pure religion but with us as people and our ways of corrupting or at least corrupting the perception of what is good and upright in the eyes of God.


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 15, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Hey listen I have just as much right to be here and to learn as much as anybody else. Who are YOU to say such a thing. I don't find glee in this and please refrain from saying such things.
> 
> Thank you


 
Um, actually you don't. This IS the Christian fellowship forum. Are you trying to "learn" something from Christians, to share the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ or is it your goal and the others to "school" the Christians? 

I just don't get it. For a group of people who think the Christians "hijack" their religion and worship God incorrectly therefore not at all and who believe Jesus is "just a prophet" y'all sure spend a whole lot of time  lurking and hanging out here adding NOTHING of any use and provoking constantly.


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## Almaz (Mar 15, 2009)

I NEVER said anyone Hijacked MY religion. YOU got the wrong person. And Actually I do. I paid to be here like everyone else. 

Thank you. 



\





Ms.Honey said:


> Um, actually you don't. This IS the Christian fellowship forum. Are you trying to "learn" something from Christians, to share the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ or is it your goal and the others to "school" the Christians?
> 
> I just don't get it. For a group of people who think the Christians "hijack" their religion and worship God incorrectly therefore not at all and who believe Jesus is "just a prophet" y'all sure spend a whole lot of time lurking and hanging out here adding NOTHING of any use and provoking constantly.


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 15, 2009)

Almaz said:


> I NEVER said anyone Hijacked MY religion. YOU got the wrong person. And Actually I do. I paid to be here like everyone else.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> ...


 
No, one of the others said we hijack Judaism but I doubt very seriously you feel we are worshipping God the way He wants us to and have decided to "learn" anything. So again, what's the point? You also need to read the rules for the Christian forum. 

It's not my forum so whatever but please don't come in here starting mess like the others like to do. Don't instigate.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 16, 2009)

This is an attempt to clear up any misunderstandings about my reasoning to post this in this forum.  I think the problem here was that_ people weren't reading and viewing all the materials_ and I know it was kind of long.  Most of the outrage stemmed from misconstruing  info being taken out of *context* that would have appeared an attack if not read or viewed.  I'm not sure why people would comment without viewing all the supporting documents.  It can't be skimmed that way.  You don't have to agree with him, but certainly, do not misconstrue along with accusations of deception, racism, disunity etc.  My questions were specific to this particuar issue in our community and I wished to bring it to the attention of people.  It was not an attack against christianity.  Please, that is an unfounded accusation.

It was to be read along _with_ the short videos.  So, again, there was a serious misunderstanding and things have been misquoted, misconstrued and taken *out of context* from not viewing his speeches where the quotes were taken from. I just ask that, for those who are truly interested, please take the time to view the vids before commenting further.  I reiterate yet again, I'm only posting to clear up an issue brought to my attention - misunderstanding from not viewing all the supporting info because it is not racist.   

Twiss says over and over again, "we, what we hope for is people seeing us thru the lense of *scripture*... mutuality...legitimate  christ-honoring _partnerships_, understanding..._authentically walk with Jesus in the context of who G-d created him (the believer) to be_..." (none of that is anti-christian)

Hope for the American Church
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHKtDoKoD80
--------------------------------------------------
Here he talks about the lack of personal identity leading to self-esteem problems caused by assimilation.  He's hoping for full integration of of believers within the larger body but through mutual understanding based upon a scriptural context - not mainstream cultural...*through true christian lenses*...*not through *the superimposition of American culture ...which does not make christianity authenticated.  _All cultures can fit is what he's saying_ and they have a right to self-expression as well as needs for that.   BTW, it seems evident in the AA church (gospel style, African garb, several other traditions.

The Biggest Problem (for his particular community)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JojNNniUs0&NR=1

BTW, the vids are very short in length.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 16, 2009)

Ms.Honey said:


> No, one of the others said we hijack Judaism but I doubt very seriously you feel we are worshipping God the way He wants us to and have decided to "learn" anything. So again, what's the point? You also need to read the rules for the Christian forum.
> 
> It's not my forum so whatever but please don't come in here starting mess like the others like to do. Don't instigate.


 

No, I said that European Jews have "hijacked" Judaism by their mistreatment of authentic, original ethnic Jews from the Middle East.  Don't attribute that to her...it was my comment.  I was not talking about christians at all...unless somebody else really said that and in that case, you can scratch my comment because it wouldn't then apply.  I was referring to blatant racism and discrimination.


But in my Hebrew class, the majority are Germans, Poles, etc.  A guy who is studying to be a cantor who's family is of original Jewish descent, from N. Africa, came in new to the class.  Their jaws dropped at the site of this swarthy curly-headed cutie and the German teacher openly mistreated him...right there in front of everybody, class after class after class.  It's probably something you are unaware of in that community...much akin to a Sudanese walking into an Episcopalian church and everybody staring, thinking he's certainly in the wrong place  (imagine the humorous situation).  When he starts singing in his ancient tradition which is the older one...2,000 years old in Africa, people will think it strange when it's the older tradition.


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## Irresistible (Mar 16, 2009)

divya said:


> May I, in love, offer an Scriptural perspective?  *True religion is of God. *
> 
> *James 1:27* - _Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world._
> 
> This is one of my favorite scriptures in the Word - just made it my siggy again.  The issue is not with pure religion but with us as people and our ways of corrupting or at least corrupting the perception of what is good and upright in the eyes of God.


I agree

pure religion probably does equal relationship anyway right?

I do know that some super religiousness does keep one from true relationship


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## Irresistible (Mar 16, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> This is an attempt to clear up any misunderstandings about my reasoning to post this in this forum.  I think the problem here was that_ people weren't reading and viewing all the materials_ and I know it was kind of long.  Most of the outrage stemmed from misconstruing  info being taken out of *context* that would have appeared an attack if not read or viewed.  I'm not sure why people would comment without viewing all the supporting documents.  It can't be skimmed that way.  You don't have to agree with him, but certainly, do not misconstrue along with accusations of deception, racism, disunity etc.  My questions were specific to this particuar issue in our community and I wished to bring it to the attention of people.  It was not an attack against christianity.  Please, that is an unfounded accusation.
> 
> It was to be read along _with_ the short videos.  So, again, there was a serious misunderstanding and things have been misquoted, misconstrued and taken *out of context* from not viewing his speeches where the quotes were taken from. I just ask that, for those who are truly interested, please take the time to view the vids before commenting further.  I reiterate yet again, I'm only posting to clear up an issue brought to my attention - misunderstanding from not viewing all the supporting info because it is not racist.
> 
> ...



I still dont understand everything in full,  but apologize again for anything I misunderstood

If thats not where your heart is/was , as far as what was perceived or mistaken, then I truly do take back all the things I said


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## divya (Mar 16, 2009)

Irresistible said:


> I agree
> 
> pure religion probably does equal relationship anyway right?
> 
> I do know that some super religiousness does keep one from true relationship



Yes, pure religion definitely does equal relationship.   I would say the problem is super legalism. That was the problem with the Pharisees, for example. They were so legalistic that they lacked the loving and giving Christian spirit.


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## topsyturvy86 (Mar 16, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> This is an attempt to clear up any misunderstandings about my reasoning to post this in this forum. I think the problem here was that_ people weren't reading and viewing all the materials_ and I know it was kind of long. Most of the outrage stemmed from misconstruing info being taken out of *context* that would have appeared an attack if not read or viewed. I'm not sure why people would comment without viewing all the supporting documents. It can't be skimmed that way. You don't have to agree with him, but certainly, do not misconstrue along with accusations of deception, racism, disunity etc. My questions were specific to this particuar issue in our community and I wished to bring it to the attention of people. It was not an attack against christianity. Please, that is an unfounded accusation.


 
I just managed to get through this thread ... wow! GV, I don't think there's a misunderstanding at all, I think people are understanding you just fine and I completely understand and agree with what they're saying. IF infact there is a misunderstanding, do you blame them? You've made it quite clear where you stand on this with posts like 




> LOL. It's really clear but I'm not coming from your perspective, most likely. I see Jesus as a Jew. I find Judaism, aside from being part of my family heritage down the line, closely linked with Native American traditions. It's an earthy religion, balanced, intellectual, mystical whatnot.
> 
> Christians were a Jewish sect, a MIddle-easter/African religion...they soon were flooded by gentiles. It has a gentile feel now, particularly, a gentile face. It is somewhat antisemitic. But it's from Jewish tradition....became a hijacked religion by Europeans who say they practice Jesus' ways, but don't. They have given it a white coated paint job in order to kill and destroy for their benefit only. They are disrespectful and prejudiced and hateful, yet they preach the gospel. White christianity has done a lot of evil while preaching that so-called gospel (genocide, slavery etc., segregation, discrimination). I suspect those weren't christians, not really.
> 
> If I look at Ethiopian christianity, then I see those Jewish traditions. They don't have an unblemished history either, but they were more "humane" than their recently arrived European brethern (christianity is 2,000 years old, in Africa). *In other words, the negativism I look down upon is mainly from those who have white-washed the religion.*


 
There was also the thread on feeling funny in a majority white Church or something like that. You did say recently as well in the random thoughts thread in OT forum that if you knew this site was ubber Christian you wouldn't have joined (I can remember thinking huh? why is she always in the Christianity forum then?)



> I don't think it's about past committed errors because we've all got them. Many of us are still in error. I think the point is that there is an attitude of righteous indignation at the mere thought that someone would question the belief system. There is a definite aura of holier-than-thou and frankly, when I first came here, I had absolutely no idea this was an uber xtian site. I probably wouldn't have joined because I'm very leery of such. Well, just look around...evident. You can't force people to believe in your religion. You can't force people to live or think as you do. They mostly react negatively to unfair judgemental attitudes.




And then this thread. IF there is a misunderstanding, can you see why? Also, if you wouldn't have joined if you knew this site was 'ubber Christian' as you put it, why are you always in the CHRISTIANITY forum?


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## HeChangedMyName (Mar 16, 2009)

nevermind:


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## Crown (Mar 16, 2009)

Ms.Honey said:


> No, one of the others said we hijack Judaism but I doubt very seriously you feel we are worshipping God the way He wants us to and have decided to "learn" anything. So again, what's the point? You also need to read the rules for the Christian forum.
> 
> It's not my forum so whatever but please don't come in here starting mess like the others like to do. Don't instigate.



John 6 : 44  No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me *draws* him, and I will raise him up at the last day
May GOD bless her in the Name of JESUS CHRIST, The True Way!


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## HeChangedMyName (Mar 16, 2009)

I just feel like the big picture is being overlooked.  God created us all of us for HIS purpose, not for our own purpose.  He knows the end even in the beginning.  He chose who he chose but he gave us all free will and it's up to us individually to chose him.

Our Walk with Christ should be more in context of our personal relationship with him and that will be the common factor that draws us to other people who believe in him.  We can't dwell in the past hurts that we have experienced either invidually or as groups of people.  Everyone has been disenfranchised in some way or another both in the name of religion and for other reasons.    . . .But God.  Oh, but when God is in your heart with all that love, you have the power to not only forgive those who have hurt you, but to also forgive them, move on from the hurt and welcome them into your circle of love so that they will experience God himself on earth through you.


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 16, 2009)

SuperNova said:


> I just feel like the big picture is being overlooked. God created us all of us for HIS purpose, not for our own purpose. He knows the end even in the beginning. He chose who he chose but he gave us all free will and it's up to us individually to chose him.
> 
> Our Walk with Christ should be more in context of our personal relationship with him and that will be the common factor that draws us to other people who believe in him. We can't dwell in the past hurts that we have experienced either invidually or as groups of people. Everyone has been disenfranchised in some way or another both in the name of religion and for other reasons. . . .But God. Oh, but when God is in your heart with all that love, you have the power to not only forgive those who have hurt you, but to also forgive them, move on from the hurt and welcome them into your circle of love so that they will experience God himself on earth through you.


 
Good post, sis.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 16, 2009)

topsyturvy86 said:


> I just managed to get through this thread ... wow! GV, I don't think there's a misunderstanding at all, I think people are understanding you just fine and I completely understand and agree with what they're saying. IF infact there is a misunderstanding, do you blame them? You've made it quite clear where you stand on this with posts like
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
One can NEVER erase history.  Again, if you viewed the vids, then you'd know what was contained within them.  Please do not expect every person to have and speak your own particular language regarding belief.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 16, 2009)

SuperNova said:


> I just feel like the big picture is being overlooked. God created us all of us for HIS purpose, not for our own purpose. He knows the end even in the beginning. He chose who he chose but he gave us all free will and it's up to us individually to chose him.
> 
> Our Walk with Christ should be more in context of our personal relationship with him and that will be the common factor that draws us to other people who believe in him. We can't dwell in the past hurts that we have experienced either invidually or as groups of people. Everyone has been disenfranchised in some way or another both in the name of religion and for other reasons. . . .But God. Oh, but when God is in your heart with all that love, you have the power to not only forgive those who have hurt you, but to also forgive them, move on from the hurt and welcome them into your circle of love so that they will experience God himself on earth through you.


 

And that's exactly what Twiss is saying.  I think people have to realize they are largely Euro-centered in culture.  This is a problem for many christian communities worldwide but you won't know what it means unless you view the material.  We can go on and on in circles...but unless people actually look at that info fully, they simply cannot make an educated opinion on it.  I don't need to further explain .  Consider the thread closed, please.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 16, 2009)

Irresistible said:


> I still dont understand everything in full, but apologize again for anything I misunderstood
> 
> If thats not where your heart is/was , as far as what was perceived or mistaken, then I truly do take back all the things I said


 
It's probably because people don't know their full American history.  They have been given a lovely picketed fenced photo of it.  They often don't know church history and all the struggles it's gone through, both theologically, politically and socially.  But that's okay.  I know where you're coming from and I truly appreciate that you apologized.  It means a lot to me, Iris.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 16, 2009)

:endworld:  The truth really will set you free.  As for me, I'm going to go grow some corn.  



THREAD CLOSED


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## HeChangedMyName (Mar 16, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> And that's exactly what Twiss is saying.  I think *people have to realize* they are largely Euro-centered in culture.  This is *a problem for many christian communities* worldwide but *you won't know what it means* unless you view the material.  We can go on and on in circles...but unless people actually look at that info fully, they simply *cannot make an educated opinion* on it.  I don't need to further explain .  Consider the thread closed, please.



I don't mean any harm and I am not attacking you, nor do I feel attacked by you, but why are you so dead set on having us view this material if you have already given us your version of the cliffs notes?  It seems like you are rather looking for a group of people to co-sign on your own personal beliefs and that is fine if that is what you want, but on a forum where you experience people from all walks of life, it is a hard thing to comeby a whole group of people to have the exact same interpretation as you do.

Original Topic aside, you seem to be looking for something or someone to judge and to point the finger at for past hurts.  Rather than looking to a man and his opinion and holding it so highly. . .I think you will agree that the best thing is to talk to God about it.


----------



## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 16, 2009)

SuperNova said:


> I don't mean any harm and I am not attacking you, nor do I feel attacked by you, but why are you so dead set on having us view this material if you have already given us your version of the cliffs notes? It seems like you are rather looking for a group of people to co-sign on your own personal beliefs and that is fine if that is what you want, but on a forum where you experience people from all walks of life, it is a hard thing to comeby a whole group of people to have the exact same interpretation as you do.
> 
> Original Topic aside, you seem to be looking for something or someone to judge and to point the finger at for past hurts. Rather than looking to a man and his opinion and holding it so highly. . .I think you will agree that the best thing is to talk to God about it.


 

The nature of a forum is to either give information, to ask information or to do both.  THis is what I've done.  I was asking opinions on the material and if anyone was aware, what effects has this type of issue had on the African American church.  There are over 40 posts where this point has been overlooked, albeit not my fault.    Actually, *I* am that person from a different walk of life, opening up certain issues for people to become aware of.  

My purpose has always been upfront and very many times mentioned in this thread.  It's not to judge or point a finger.  *Indication is not the same as accusation.*  I am sorry you all feel so offended by the presentation of facts as some sort of attack against your beliefs.  

Again, if one cannot view his sermon/speech, then one will not be able to form an educated opinion on it.  About my talking to G-d about disunity in the christian churchm, isolation and marginalization, it's not G-d's fault, it's man's fault and unless there is open dialogue, it will never be solved.  And despite it, there is still faith, a pure faith.  I tire from the unjust accusations.   The evidence is still there...  You can read it, listen to it, make an opinion or choose completely not to.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 16, 2009)

THIS THREAD SHOULD BE CLOSED!




...as it's pointless to keep reiterating while facing the same misinformed accusations...it's pointless...


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## HeChangedMyName (Mar 16, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> The nature of a forum is to either give information, to ask information or to do both.  THis is what I've done.  *I was asking opinions* on the material and if anyone was aware, what effects has this type of issue had on the African American church.  There are over 40 posts where this point has been overlooked, *albeit not my fault*.    Actually, *I* am that person from a different walk of life, opening up certain issues for people to become aware of.
> 
> My purpose has always been upfront and very many times mentioned in this thread.  It's not to judge or point a finger.  Indication is not the same as accusation*.*  I am sorry *you all feel so offended by the presentation of facts as some sort of attack against your beliefs.*
> 
> Again, if one cannot view his sermon/speech, then one will not be able to form an educated opinion on it.  *About my talking to G-d about disunity in the christian churchm, isolation and marginalization, it's not G-d's fault, it's man's fault* and unless there is open dialogue, it will never be solved.  And despite it, there is still faith, a pure faith.  I tire from the unjust accusations.   The evidence is still there...  You can read it, listen to it, make an opinion or choose completely not to.



Ok, I hear you.  You were asking opinions, but if the opinions were not lined up with your point of view, then you became combative rather than harmonious.  

It became your fault when you gave us cliffs notes of what you got from the video.(I've actually gone back and watched the videos and minus your own commentary, I think this thread may have gone a little differently.

I don't know if anyone feels offended by anything other than your lack of understanding in the fact that not all people hold the same view point as yourself.  Like I mentioned before EVERYONE has been disenfranchised at some point in time.  But the growth comes in what you do with that you can either let it kill you with grief or you can let it feed you with power to overcome.

I agree, it's not God's fault, but he is the ONLY resolution


follow me for a minute.  Going into an establishment such as---that cathouse brothel with a Bible and holy water, oils or whatever floats your boat and condemning all those people to hell for sinning when to them it is just a way to pay bills.  It isn't God's way to force any views on anyone, we have to take his lead.  give the information and direction and then allow people to come.  They will, in time.

After watching Twiss for myself,  he has valid points and it seems that through all of these pages, we missed it, because of what was pointed out from what you perceived. 

Again, I say all this in love.  you remind me so much of myself some years ago when I felt the same way about AA being disenfranchised, stolen from our land and forced to convert and be something that we were inately NOT.  All things work for good for those who love Him though.  Although slavery and the treatment of NA in America were horrendous acts of history, the reality is that according to the Bible, the Gospel has to be spread somehow and had it not been for slavery and the stealing of America, I may not know Jesus even today and still be lost.


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## TrustMeLove (Mar 16, 2009)

I *THINK* got what the OP was saying from her first post. I didn't take it offensively either.  This guy in the video stated some opinions she was asking for our opinions....simple. 

I too do see what Twiss is saying about the NA first encounter with Christianity. It was definitely horrible and not something that made you feel like the people were good people who were trying to get you to believe in a different God/religion/ etc..

That the introduction was definitely clouded by the acts of the people delievering the message. I'm not going to accept a dollar from aperson who is committing evil acts against me even if I am broke as a joke. 

I also hope that NA are able to intertwine their cultural with their belief in Jesus Christ. That their form of worship is looked down upon because it may not fit what other folks consider normal....or something that is mainstream. 

That this healing between to the two cultures will hopefully continue to take place. And is happening thanks to moves by the RCC. I believe that God will make this to come to pass because he wants his people healed and whole. There is a lot of hurt and pain in the body of Christ...and it may not be all spiritual and it does have things to do with our worldy circumstances, but God gets it and he will work it out. 

Now OP, you don't know how to accept criticism even when you may not be in the wrong or even if you are in the wrong. You have a very combative spirit and don't say things in love when folks may not agree with you or have not clearly understood what you have stated. And that spirit of Love was definitely messing throughout this thread. 
I was thankful to see Irresistable post something in love even though she was "lost" or didn't agree or read something differently from the post. 

I use to be the same way..I've made "Christians" cry before and I didn't see anything wrong with what I was saying because in my mind it was the TRUTH! And I still think it is the TRUTH, but I just needed to learn how to say it in love. And once I learned how to keep my mouth shut in certain situations (ignore folks or a thread) and in others say what I had to say in LOVE things started to work out better for me and my message got across.


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## HeChangedMyName (Mar 16, 2009)

TrustMeLove said:


> I *THINK* got what the OP was saying from her first post. I didn't take it offensively either.  This guy in the video stated some opinions she was asking for our opinions....simple.
> 
> I too do see what Twiss is saying about the NA first encounter with Christianity. *It was definitely horrible and not something that made you feel like the people were good people who were trying to get you to believe in a different God/religion/ etc..*
> 
> ...




You are so on point, very objective too, thanks


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 16, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> No, I said that European Jews have "hijacked" Judaism by their mistreatment of authentic, original ethnic Jews from the Middle East. Don't attribute that to her...it was my comment. I was not talking about christians at all...unless somebody else really said that and in that case, you can scratch my comment because it wouldn't then apply. I was referring to blatant racism and discrimination.
> 
> 
> But in my Hebrew class, the majority are Germans, Poles, etc. A guy who is studying to be a cantor who's family is of original Jewish descent, from N. Africa, came in new to the class. Their jaws dropped at the site of this swarthy curly-headed cutie and the German teacher openly mistreated him...right there in front of everybody, class after class after class. It's probably something you are unaware of in that community...much akin to a Sudanese walking into an Episcopalian church and everybody staring, thinking he's certainly in the wrong place (imagine the humorous situation). When he starts singing in his ancient tradition which is the older one...2,000 years old in Africa, people will think it strange when it's the older tradition.


 
Question? Why do you always assume that we are unaware of stuff? Is it because we're not Jewish because I've noticed that you don't address almaz that way?

I am aware. I am aware of the African Jewish tribe (I believe they live in Southern Africa) who proclaimed to being Jews by blood not proselytes lived traditionaly even and were made to prove they were Jews with blood tests that traced back their ancestry. They were proven to be blood descendants.

Your classmate was mistreated and discriminated against but you think we should study Judaism


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 16, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> One can NEVER erase history. Again, if you viewed the vids, then you'd know what was contained within them. *Please do not expect every person to have and speak your own particular language regarding belief*.


 
By language do you mean interpretation or do you mean speech. With speech isn't that what you and other Jews says about Christians? If not you, another member DEFINITELY said that we couldn't worship/understand because we didn't speak their language. That we can't fully understand the Word unless we speak Hebrew or Aramaic? 

I don't see the difference between what the missionaries did to the NA's and what the Jews did to the gentiles. Trying to make the gentiles Jews, wanting them to be circumcised and follow Jewish ordinances. They were trying to force the gentiles to be Jews and Paul fought against that explaining it to the Jews in the books of Acts and Hebrews but you come here and try to tell us that we need to be Jews You are doing the SAME things the Jews did to the gentiles but not being honest about it or really not seeing it.

It wasn't you or Almaz who said that Christians hijacked her religion it was another member who likes to lurk here.


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## HeChangedMyName (Mar 16, 2009)

DoOver.  I viewed the video and the overall picture that I got from Twiss is that the delivery of the Gospel to the NA's was not Christ-like in it's nature.  That's it.  all the extra stuff is really unnecessary.  The same thing could be said about how the gospel was used to enforce slavery of AA's and to convert them as well.

The focus is being put on the people who did this rather than coming from a spirit of victory over the fact that we've made it through our plight in America we can't keep dwelling on the negatives.  Rest in God's hands and know that He and only He is God and that what he has for us on the other side of this is so much more than what was or could have ever been stolen for us both culturally, spiritually, mentally, emotionally even physically. 

Reality is natural, Spirituality transcends all that.


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 16, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> THIS THREAD SHOULD BE CLOSED!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
This thread should NOT be closed. It is not accomplishing what you hoped but it is informative.


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## HeChangedMyName (Mar 16, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> THIS THREAD SHOULD BE CLOSED!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Please tell us exactly what you are being accused of.  As a forum for Christians.  I can guarantee you that if you express to us your EXACT perception of what you feel are accusations against you, we would be delighted to correct things.


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## Ramya (Mar 16, 2009)

Right SN! I get that the delivery was awful and I highly doubt that's what God had in mind. BUT where did all this other 'stuff' come in at? That is where I'm lost.


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## Irresistible (Mar 16, 2009)

I think the thing is

Most of us do know history,  but we still stand where we stand and feel just fine with our truths ,  and our relationship with the Creator and already feel that we have 'unity'  ,  and most of all we LOVE GOD and know of HIS LOVE

We dont need to keep focusing on history we are at peace with going forward from here and walking with God

I do pray that the NA's, can make peace with Christianity and bridge the gap, if thats what is wanted from any of them. Its easy to do, not hard at all really. 

I am not sure we will all ever be in church, or gathering together praying to the True God AND our ancestors, seeking prayer AND medicine men, and smoking Peyote,  but its all Good

and God is STILL the only true God on the Throne, the True Creator , The Father

so most of us, despite the horrible acts of the past, have already made peace with it and are choosing to walk with our God forward and in LOVE healing and PEACE

We are all saying that Hannah,  Christians do love and accept you,  YOU the person,  maybe not the whole msg your bringing, but YOU if you truly want unity within your beliefs and Christianity, we are more than able to just LOVE you and accept you. 

if we cant embrace the whole msg your coming with, doesnt mean we dont love, or truly wish for unity,  we cant force feed you, and you cant force feed us,  unity is respecting where another is at in there beliefs or at least 'falling back' when you know you need to,  it doesnt mean you cant still love that person

The History is true,  but its not a stumbling block to walking with God now in the here and RIGHT NOW.  I guess you feel we are missing something and we are saying we ARE NOT.   Maybe thats where the unity can start to come in , in your understanding that we feel we are doing just fine and are comfortable in our truths and nothing in history changes that for us today


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## HeChangedMyName (Mar 16, 2009)

alabama said:


> Right SN! I get that the delivery was awful and I highly doubt that's what God had in mind. BUT where did all this other 'stuff' come in at? That is where I'm lost.




You know what I think it is just a matter of how we each receive stuff.  You know that game we all played in middle school where the teacher would whisper something to one student and that student would whisper it to another student and it went down the line until the last student had to tell the whole class what was whispered to them and by then, it had been all twisted around.


It's just a matter of perception and this thread dealt more with G's perception of the videos rather than the videos themselves.  After watching them, although I see what G got out of them, my overall perception was different from G's, while different, it was no more or less important than hers.


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 16, 2009)

alabama said:


> Right SN! I get that the delivery was awful and I highly doubt that's what God had in mind. BUT where did all this other 'stuff' come in at? That is where I'm lost.


 
You're not lost girl you see what's happening but.......

GV, you DO post a lot of interesting info BUT you slip stuff in that's not being well received. You and Twiss are NOT saying the same things. 

I want to ask you WHO exactly is hindering NA's and people of color from expressing cultural freedom in their churches. You seem to have an old vision of the church from segregation days. You pretend not to know the answer THEN state the answer (AA express their culture in their music etc.") 

It is VERY hard not to believe that you post these threads because you think we're ignorant and don't know basic church history, biblical history and American history.


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## Irresistible (Mar 16, 2009)

Ms.Honey said:


> You're not lost girl you see what's happening but.......
> 
> GV, you DO post a lot of interesting info BUT you slip stuff in that's not being well received. You and Twiss are NOT saying the same things.
> 
> ...



Honestly

this is how it does start to feel at times

I guess thats the confusion , the msg's are being mixed together, hers on top of his,  I dont know..........


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## Irresistible (Mar 16, 2009)

I get it now

its the same way some AA's are anti Christianity because of how it was brought to them and the NA's the same

We truly did ALL know this already

We came to be Christians how WE came,  it wasnt forced on us today, and we know it to be our TRUTH AND OUR FAITH,  I respect that others can get stuck on how it was 'used' the wrong way in the past and used in a way that caused pain, if someone can never come to Christianity as their faith because of it,  there is nothing any of us that already have come to that faith can do about it but pray, and we are not responsible personally for the pains of the past , we did not do it.   But NEVERTHELESS JESUS IS OUR FIRST LOVE!  and we love him because we have come to know him PERSONALLY and nothing in the past matters or stands in the way anymore for us. 

its sad that it is this way though, other Christians that didnt act Christ like causing such a huge stumbling block for so many ,  I guess in part what the enemy intended in the first place

but then ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER

what else is there to say

Hannah God was on the throne all along , then and now and forever more, he will hold all accountable for all things.  

all I know for me TODAY is I found out FOR ME JESUS IS SO REAL,  AND HE SAVED ME. 

The past cant change that today,  and I came from a family rooted in the occult and it was as a child instilled in my beliefs,  but whew LORD when all that new age crap got my arse in trouble and I needed help ASAP, he was but one prayer away, I didnt need a church, a religion, a person, a history book, or lesson , or to know which church or religion was the right one, or what Christians did to who in the past

I made a 911 call to him , (PRAYER) AND he answered MIGHTILY, and my testimony you would not even believe OK, but I went through and felt and witnessed the war for my soul , it was horrific and scary, but my JESUS WON!  all I had to do was pray!

dang I feel like jumping up and down, what was this thread about again?  I'm too through........I'm praising and thats all I can do right now

whew girl , I love you hannah, I know your heart is beautiful!  Your just on your path and its yours to take and HE HAS GOT YOU!


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## HeChangedMyName (Mar 16, 2009)

^^ ^ Iris, like you said, All things work together. . .


This post is doing just what it is suppose to.  it is showing how the heart of God can move through people and deliver them and how it is there for the taking for whomever wants it


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## HeChangedMyName (Mar 16, 2009)

Irresistible said:


> Honestly
> 
> this is how it does start to feel at times
> 
> I guess thats the confusion , the msg's are being mixed together, hers on top of his,  I dont know..........



I don't even think it is a matter of mixing anything, because word for word what G, typed in the post as what she got from the videos that information is really there.  



Ms.Honey said:


> You're not lost girl you see what's happening but.......
> 
> GV, you DO post a lot of interesting info BUT you slip stuff in that's not being well received. You and Twiss are NOT saying the same things.
> 
> ...



rather than anything being slipped in. like my mother use to say when I was a kid. "People hear what they wanna hear."  G heard the part about the disenfranchisement of a people.  I heard the part about unity among people regardless of cultural difference.  

I would really encourage anyone who has about 10 minutes to just watch the vids.


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 16, 2009)

Irresistible said:


> Honestly
> 
> this is how it does start to feel at times
> 
> I guess thats the confusion , the msg's are being mixed together, hers on top of his, I dont know..........


 
 It seems like she has a lot of info that she wants to share but won't just say, "I want to share this with you all to further try and convince you that Christians really need to be Judaistic". That's the message she's trying to bring and we know that we don't need to and tell her that so she then brings in other "testimonies" that Yeah, Christians *NEED* to be Jews.

 I think it's frustrating her that we don't believe it and refuse to believe it therefore it frustated us in the beginning, me particularly. Now we see the pattern in her threads and posts. That's why no one initially responded to her other threads and until divya was nice enough to, no one would have responded to this one either, that and the fact that it was a super long OP that came with a super long article AND 3 videos *BUT* it is still interesting and would have been recieved as such if not for her personal agenda being added to it.


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 16, 2009)

As part NA (Seminole), part Italian and part AA, and a christian, I found the message to be off....plain and simple.

We must be able to go forward...pressing toward the mark of the High Calling in Christ Jesus in order for us to heal.

The bible says this: 

_*If my people who are called by MY NAME, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from Heaven, and will forgive their sin, and heal their land*_.  2 Chronicles 7:14

and

_*If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me; and that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity, then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land. *_ 
Leviticus 26:40-42

The only way healing can truly come is if we are in agreement with the whole Word of God, not some...but, all of it!

Jesus said_*..."where two or three are gathered in My Name, there I AM in the midst of them."*_  Matthew 18:20

_*Where the Spirit of the Lord is...there is liberty*_ (freedom) and we can be healed! 2 Corinthians 3: 17

We can _*confess our sins to one another, and pray for one another, that we may be healed*_.  James 5:16


Praying that change will come to the hearts of God's people!


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## Irresistible (Mar 16, 2009)

Ms.Honey said:


> It seems like she has a lot of info that she wants to share but won't just say, "I want to share this with you all to further try and convince you that Christians really need to be Judaistic". That's the message she's trying to bring and we know that we don't need to and tell her that so she then brings in other "testimonies" that Yeah, Christians *NEED* to be Jews.
> 
> I think it's frustrating her that we don't believe it and refuse to believe it therefore it frustated us in the beginning, me particularly. Now we see the pattern in her threads and posts. That's why no one initially responded to her other threads and until divya was nice enough to, no one would have responded to this one either, that and the fact that it was a super long OP that came with a super long article AND 3 videos *BUT* it is still interesting and would have been recieved as such if not for her personal agenda being added to it.



why do we need to be Jews? and how can we be Jews?

I'm so lost


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## Irresistible (Mar 16, 2009)

Oh well........

back to praising JESUS , for saving me out of the hands of the enemy and healing me and delivering me and setting me free and loving me and teaching me and being patient with me and for blessing me and blessing me and blessing me and loving me and loving me and loving me

I LOVE THE LORD! 

I'm not going nowhere, I'm not converting, reverting, subverting, inverting or any verting I am staying right where I am,  I'm in the right place! Jesus paid the price for me and I am HIS! 

*praise dance*


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 16, 2009)

Irresistible said:


> I think the thing is
> 
> Most of us do know history, but we still stand where we stand and feel just fine with our truths , and our relationship with the Creator and already feel that we have 'unity' , and most of all we LOVE GOD and know of HIS LOVE
> 
> ...


 

The part of history wherein lies the unadulterated truth of all cultures here, not just the ones we're familiar with.  Just like people reading American history and getting a very one-sided view of AA contribution to this society, one of slavery only.  A disconnect...?  Jesus Christ!  

This is just so ridiculous.  Who viewed the entirety of the information?  And if not, then *why post*?  I'm talking his sermon/speech alongside the transcribed quotes wherein they were placed within the *proper context*?  People responded to something they thought they saw, ran with it, kept running with it, made awful accusations of racism, alluded to anti-christian...you name it, it was done.  

My question is, why post to something you didn't view *in entirety*? and then keep demanding an explanation?  That's all.  I wasn't attempting to change anyone's religion, convert them to anything, make them New Age or something...whatever.  It's just ridiculous and enough already.   Talk about a witch hunt, sheesh!  

Nobody had to agree to this or my viewpoint but simply DO NOT call me a racist when I am not.  There was actually only ONE person on here who I believe viewed most of the material.  The rest, people just based their rants over another's viewpoint of what they thought they saw, jumping all over it as though it were anti-christian.  

And the delivery was awful?  I briefly introduced the material, provided the appropriate links where the quotes were taken from, cited the author, transcribed/highlighted some of the important points and posted the two vids on the very first OP.  Please, either view them and post based upon fact or not view them and NOT post anything about it.  You DO NOT have to be here in this thread.  And no one here has to attempt to ENGAGE me further in this ridiculous display of witch hunt.


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 16, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> The part of history wherein lies the unadulterated truth of all cultures here, not just the ones we're familiar with. Just like people reading American history and getting a very one-sided view of AA contribution to this society, one of slavery only. A disconnect...? Jesus Christ!
> 
> This is just so ridiculous. Who viewed the entirety of the information? And if not, then *why post*? I'm talking his sermon/speech alongside the transcribed quotes wherein they were placed within the *proper context*? People responded to something they thought they saw, ran with it, kept running with it, made awful accusations of racism, alluded to anti-christian...you name it, it was done.
> 
> ...


 
You say just this one thread but it's a pattern GV. Read your other posts in THIS thread. Read your other threads and see what we're talking about. You were VERY clear on how you feel about the "white man" today not just what they've done in the past. Like I said you and Twiss aren't coming from the same place. He's more like, "That's the past let's move forward" but you're more like, "Let's separate from them removing anything remotely European and worship on our own."

I still do not see how the atrocities of the past are CURRENTLY preventing ANY culture in America from worshipping our own way. You know a lot so you must know that there are Korean churches, Ethiopian churches, hispanic churches, multicultural and predominantly one culture churches etc. in America that worship mainly in their tongue incorporating their culture in their worship BUT are welcoming to others. 

BTW all of the above mentioned churches are in my neighborhood. We've moved past the point of forced worship in America and have already added elements of our culture in our worship. It's not a problem as long as our culture does not conflict with the Word of God.


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## Irresistible (Mar 16, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> The part of history wherein lies the unadulterated truth of all cultures here, not just the ones we're familiar with.  Just like people reading American history and getting a very one-sided view of AA contribution to this society, one of slavery only.  A disconnect...?  Jesus Christ!
> 
> This is just so ridiculous.  Who viewed the entirety of the information?  And if not, then *why post*?  I'm talking his sermon/speech alongside the transcribed quotes wherein they were placed within the *proper context*?  People responded to something they thought they saw, ran with it, kept running with it, made awful accusations of racism, alluded to anti-christian...you name it, it was done.
> 
> ...


I cant believe this just keeps turning from bad to worse

girl alot of people are telling you they are just lost , I mean they do get the msg but still dont get the point,  so many of us.  

maybe its not a witch hunt,  cause I can surely see that nobody here was out for that,  maybe its just that some of what you say isnt received by Christians 

nothing more, nothing less

btw I didnt say anything about YOU and the new age crap,  I SAID ITS WHAT got ME into trouble,  I was posting MY testimony not applicable to you at all,  I'm sorry that I lost you in that,  but the point was that I didnt need anything but the LORD to save me in that moment, not a history lesson, not religion, not church, just PRAYER

ONE PRAYER

that was my only point and it didnt apply to you whatsoever

So many have said they do understand the initial msg and point,  I think we are all at a loss at this point as to what was expected for us to do about it, you engaged us in this and we all have truly responded with our beliefs feelings and viewpoints, and with much respect

You even saying this is a witch hunt is very telling

its saying thats what you think Christians will behave like in advance so when we get riled up and stand strong in our beliefs its getting called or being interpreted as a witch hunt? how fair is that?


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## Irresistible (Mar 16, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> The part of history wherein lies the unadulterated truth of all cultures here, not just the ones we're familiar with.  Just like people reading American history and getting a very one-sided view of AA contribution to this society, one of slavery only.  A disconnect...?  Jesus Christ!
> 
> This is just so ridiculous.  Who viewed the entirety of the information?  And if not, then *why post*?  I'm talking his sermon/speech alongside the transcribed quotes wherein they were placed within the *proper context*?  People responded to something they thought they saw, ran with it, kept running with it, made awful accusations of racism, alluded to anti-christian...you name it, it was done.
> 
> ...


oh and you quoted my post and I did not say any of those things in that post to you

nothing

and have apologized already profusely for the things I might have misunderstood 

its like you are going 'This is ridiculous, do you even hear me' 

but we are all saying the same to you.......

but the thing is we can tell you over and over and over that we did , do and have heard the msg but YOU arent hearing that at all

the things said previously have changed, this thread changed,  everyone has been reaching out to understand you and what your saying and to discuss their feelings and thoughts on it all

what else could we do 

I guess all I can ask is what did you really want to come from this thread?


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## Irresistible (Mar 16, 2009)

Ms.Honey said:


> You say just this one thread but it's a pattern GV. Read your other posts in THIS thread. Read your other threads and see what we're talking about. You were VERY clear on how you feel about the "white man" today not just what they've done in the past. Like I said you and Twiss aren't coming from the same place. He's more like, "That's the past let's move forward" but you're more like, "Let's separate from them removing anything remotely European and worship on our own."
> 
> I still do not see how the atrocities of the past are CURRENTLY preventing ANY culture in America from worshipping our own way. You know a lot so you must know that there are Korean churches, Ethiopian churches, hispanic churches, multicultural and predominantly one culture churches etc. in America that worship mainly in their tongue incorporating their culture in their worship BUT are welcoming to others.
> 
> BTW all of the above mentioned churches are in my neighborhood. We've moved past the point of forced worship in America and have already added elements of our culture in our worship. It's not a problem as long as our culture does not conflict with the Word of God.



if thats the msg, then surely its been made clear by many of us that we arent getting on board

@Hannah
Twiss wants to heal from the past ......we all already have here , dont you see that?


and Hannah YOU have said things about white people and the euro influence on Christianity repeatedly, thats where you lost me,  maybe thats what people cant hear

I dont know

I dont know what else to say

again this hurts

WITCH HUNT?


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## HeChangedMyName (Mar 16, 2009)

Wow, still going huh.  This is really getting out of hand.  What would God think of all this circular discourse?  Let's keep in mind that God knows all our hearts and anyone who posts in this thread in order to falsely accuse, condemn or use the Lord's message in vain will have God to deal with on the issue.  No need to convince one another of anything.  


No need to keep trying to bring anyone into the light of Jesus by whatever means.  Can we all just agree to let it go?  If in fact we are all Christians, believing in Jesus Christ as our Savior and the one and only begotten son of Jesus Christ, does all this mess really matter?  

All that matters is that He gave up His life so that each and every believer could have everlasting life in the presence of our Father.  

Bad things happened, happen and will continue to happen until we are ALL together in paradise with God.

This thread has really hurt my heart and I don't get all emotional about much.  I consider the non-Christians who may have read this and been deterred from the faith because a bunch of Christians were bickering.  I think of the Christians who were considering leaving the faith who left because of all this foolishness.  

Father God I am calling on you to help me out here.  Whatever Spirit(s) caused all this mess. . .right now in the name of Jesus I rebuke that spirit(s) that it will leave and not cause further souls to be lost.  I cast out all demons that may try to put up a veil of confusion to keep God's chosen ones away from him.  I pray that all of the power of evil that was built up with this thread would fall right down to it's foundations. I stand on the Word of Jesus Christ and ask that the hand and power of God move in the hearts of every one affected negatively by this thread that we will not carry any animosity or other negative or ill feelings with us toward one another or other people that may cause further harm toward this, our Body of Christ.  I pray that if any souls were confused and confounded and pushed or pulled away from the Body by this thread would be restored to the Body of Christ.  In the name of Jesus, Amen.  

God, I thank you in advance because I know it is already done.

FYI, I am not directing the rebuke to anyone in particular in fact, if any of my posts were influenced then it goes for them too.  We are not on this earth to fight people.  There is always something working in the spiritual realm and oftentimes it is only in hindsight when we even recognized that we were used by the devil to stir things up.  If anyone takes offense to this prayer, then take it up with God because it is by his direction that I am posting it.  I give it to him.  I love you all dearly but I can't sit back and watch this mess unfold and not say anything because God put it in my spirit that this wasn't right.


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## topsyturvy86 (Mar 16, 2009)

Irresistible said:


> I guess all I can ask is what did you really want to come from this thread?


 
Good question. I guess that's what I would like to know as well. I think we all get it now, we're just not hung up on the past or share the same sentiments.


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## topsyturvy86 (Mar 16, 2009)

SuperNova said:


> Wow, still going huh. This is really getting out of hand. What would God think of all this circular discourse? Let's keep in mind that God knows all our hearts and anyone who posts in this thread in order to falsely accuse, condemn or use the Lord's message in vain will have God to deal with on the issue. No need to convince one another of anything.
> 
> 
> No need to keep trying to bring anyone into the light of Jesus by whatever means. Can we all just agree to let it go? If in fact we are all Christians, believing in Jesus Christ as our Savior and the one and only begotten son of Jesus Christ, does all this mess really matter?
> ...


 
AMEN!! I had actually just finished saying a prayer for the CF right before I posted and then saw ur post.


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## Irresistible (Mar 16, 2009)

SuperNova said:


> Wow, still going huh.  This is really getting out of hand.  What would God think of all this circular discourse?  Let's keep in mind that God knows all our hearts and anyone who posts in this thread in order to falsely accuse, condemn or use the Lord's message in vain will have God to deal with on the issue.  No need to convince one another of anything.
> 
> 
> No need to keep trying to bring anyone into the light of Jesus by whatever means.  Can we all just agree to let it go?  If in fact we are all Christians, believing in Jesus Christ as our Savior and the one and only begotten son of Jesus Christ, does all this mess really matter?
> ...



I agree with you in this prayer

in JESUS name

I disagree on the 'bickering'  we were all just trying to understand and speak our truth just as she was doing-I guess

But I dont feel the Christians were bickering  or that it should even be taken that way, we all did our best with this and in our hearts surly tried to stand in love and truth with pure intentions, I know this to be true  and we failed nothing and nobody here

I think in our hearts of hearts all was done here still and only out of our love for God and his truth

the confusion has hurt my heart,  but it didnt come from the Christians


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## Irresistible (Mar 16, 2009)

everybody reached out to her in LOVE

and it all got called a witch hunt

anyway, I am through 


love ya'll!


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## HeChangedMyName (Mar 16, 2009)

Irresistible said:


> I agree with you in this prayer
> 
> in JESUS name
> 
> ...



I feel you,  I am just saying bickering because there wasn't a better word.  It went a little further than simply disagreeing.  that confusion is the spirit that I speak of that you have.  The devil brings that spirit to people, he did it to Eve in the Garden.  It is a subtle one at that and if allowed to run rampant, it will lead the way for other spirits such as anger, rage, and a host of others.

I speaking strictly spiritually here on that.  I'm not talking about a person or even any specific words, but the spirit that preys on people in order to take the focus off God and that is just what has happened in this thread.  The videos are about God, but by the time we got through all of these pages, it wasn't even about God anymore.


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## Irresistible (Mar 16, 2009)

SuperNova said:


> I feel you,  I am just saying bickering because there wasn't a better word.  It went a little further than simply disagreeing.  that confusion is the spirit that I speak of that you have.  The devil brings that spirit to people, he did it to Eve in the Garden.  It is a subtle one at that and if allowed to run rampant, it will lead the way for other spirits such as anger, rage, and a host of others.
> 
> I speaking strictly spiritually here on that.  I'm not talking about a person or even any specific words, but the spirit that preys on people in order to take the focus off God and that is just what has happened in this thread.  The videos are about God, but by the time we got through all of these pages, it wasn't even about God anymore.



I HEAR YOU 

as in I HEAR YOU


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## Irresistible (Mar 16, 2009)

@ Hanna

I am just going to say this NO I DONT UNDERSTAND what the heck happened here

but nothing will stand in the way of me remembering your positive loving supportive spirit during things for me,  I dont care where we differ, I will always have much love and respect for you for that forever and always, truly

thats all I have left to say


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 16, 2009)

SuperNova said:


> Wow, still going huh. This is really getting out of hand. What would God think of all this circular discourse? Let's keep in mind that God knows all our hearts and anyone who posts in this thread in order to falsely accuse, condemn or use the Lord's message in vain will have God to deal with on the issue. No need to convince one another of anything.
> 
> 
> No need to keep trying to bring anyone into the light of Jesus by whatever means. Can we all just agree to let it go? If in fact we are all Christians, believing in Jesus Christ as our Savior and the one and only begotten son of Jesus Christ, does all this mess really matter?
> ...


Actually, sis...this has been a very good thing because, I've gotten some pm's from some "NEW" members who are asking questions and in need of prayer.    I've been praying all afternoon for some people...thank God they are inquiring!

I can speak for myself in saying that everything that I have said in this thread, I wasn't 'bickering'.  I was truly speaking the truth in love, and so I hope that you see it that way.

I'm done here....been praying and seeking the Lord about it and I've been instructed to do something different.  I will continue to pray for those who want it...my pm box is open still!

Blessings to all!

N&W


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## divya (Mar 16, 2009)

In light of the thread topic and all the discussion, I would just like to agree that the thread topic "Christian Unity, Cultural Difference and Freedom to Integrate" is important. It's just all about how we approach these issues. The devil is the master of division, hatred, prejudice and all other damaging qualities that can enter Christianity. So we have to recognize this and give it to God. It's a challenge and can be harder for some than others. This may be something that truly pains GV, just like other issues may pain each of us more or less due to our experience. But we know as Christians that our lives will not be easy. However, we serve a risen Savior who will help us every step of the way...


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 17, 2009)

Heavenly Father,
Open our eyes that we may see clearly. Open our ears so that we may be able to hear it. Open our lips so that we may be able to speak the truth.
In Jesus' name I pray,
Amen


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