# A Teenager Didn’t Do Her Online Schoolwork. So A Judge Sent Her To Juvenile Detention.



## Kanky (Jul 16, 2020)

*A Teenager Didn’t Do Her Online Schoolwork. So a Judge Sent Her to Juvenile Detention.*
*A 15-year-old in Michigan was incarcerated during the coronavirus pandemic after a judge ruled that not completing her schoolwork violated her probation. “It just doesn’t make any sense,” said the girl’s mother.*
by Jodi S. Cohen

July 14, 4 a.m. CDT





Lisa Larson-Walker/ProPublica
ProPublica is a nonprofit newsroom that investigates abuses of power. Sign up to receive our biggest stories as soon as they’re published.

_This story was co-published with the Detroit Free Press and Bridge Magazine._

PONTIAC, Mich. — One afternoon in mid-June, Charisse* drove up to the checkpoint at the Children’s Village juvenile detention center in suburban Detroit, desperate to be near her daughter. It had been a month since she had last seen her, when a judge found the girl had violated probation and sent her to the facility during the pandemic.

The girl, Grace, hadn’t broken the law again. The 15-year-old wasn’t in trouble for fighting with her mother or stealing, the issues that had gotten her placed on probation in the first place.

She was incarcerated in May for violating her probation by not completing her online coursework when her school in Beverly Hills switched to remote learning.

Because of the confidentiality of juvenile court cases, it’s impossible to determine how unusual Grace’s situation is. But attorneys and advocates in Michigan and elsewhere say they are unaware of any other case involving the detention of a child for failing to meet academic requirements after schools closed to help stop the spread of COVID-19.

The decision, they say, flies in the face of recommendations from the legal and education communities that have urged leniency and a prioritization of children’s health and safety amid the crisis. The case may also reflect, some experts and Grace’s mother believe, systemic racial bias. Grace is Black in a predominantly white community and in a county where a disproportionate percentage of Black youth are involved with the juvenile justice system.

Across the country, teachers, parents and students have struggled with the upheaval caused by monthslong school closures. School districts have documented tens of thousands of students who failed to log in or complete their schoolwork: 15,000 high school students in Los Angeles, one-third of the students in Minneapolis Public Schools and about a quarter of Chicago Public Schools students.

Students with special needs are especially vulnerable without the face-to-face guidance from teachers, social workers and others. Grace, who has ADHD, said she felt unmotivated and overwhelmed when online learning began April 15, about a month after schools closed. Without much live instruction or structure, she got easily distracted and had difficulty keeping herself on track, she said.

“Who can even be a good student right now?” said Ricky Watson Jr., executive director of the National Juvenile Justice Network. “Unless there is an urgent need, I don’t understand why you would be sending a kid to any facility right now and taking them away from their families with all that we are dealing with right now.”

In many places, juvenile courts have attempted to keep children out of detention except in the most serious cases, and they have worked to release those who were already there, experts say. A survey of juvenile justice agencies in 30 states found that the number of youths in secure detention fell by 24% in March, largely due to a steep decline in placements.

In Michigan, Gov. Gretchen Whitmer issued an executive order in March that temporarily suspended the confinement of juveniles who violate probation unless directed by a court order and encouraged eliminating any form of detention or residential placement unless a young person posed a “substantial and immediate safety risk to others.” Acting on Whitmer’s order, which was extended until late May, the Michigan Supreme Court told juvenile court judges to determine which juveniles could be returned home.

Judge Mary Ellen Brennan, the presiding judge of the Oakland County Family Court Division, declined through a court administrator to comment on Grace’s case. In her ruling, she found Grace “guilty on failure to submit to any schoolwork and getting up for school” and called Grace a “threat to (the) community,” citing the assault and theft charges that led to her probation.

“She hasn’t fulfilled the expectation with regard to school performance,” Brennan said as she sentenced Grace. “I told her she was on thin ice and I told her that I was going to hold her to the letter, to the order, of the probation.”

That June afternoon, a month after the sentencing, Charisse left Children’s Village without seeing Grace, but she did pick up a shopping bag of clothes and toiletries she had delivered days earlier. She said officials had rejected them because they violated facility rules: underwear that wasn’t briefs; face wipes that contained alcohol; a pair of jeans deemed too tight.

Charisse counts each day they’re apart, and that was day No. 33. Another month has since passed, and there could still be months to go before they are at home together again.

Driving home, Charisse had to pull over soon after she turned onto the road leading away from the complex. She sat in a parking lot, sobbing.

“It just doesn’t make any sense,” she said. She shook her head as tears dampened the disposable blue face mask pulled down to her chin.

“Every day I go to bed thinking, and wake up thinking, ‘How is this a better situation for her?’”

It has always been just the two of them, Charisse and Grace.

Told by doctors that she would be unable to have children, Charisse, a consultant to nonprofit organizations, was shocked when she became pregnant at 44. She has raised Grace on her own after the girl’s father did not want to be involved, she said.

They did everything together: winter sports throughout Michigan, rounds of golf, going to the opera, singing to Tony Bennett on road trips. They even appeared in a “Pure Michigan” tourism ad. As a child, Grace wanted so much to be like her mother that she asked to be called Charisse No. 2.

When Grace hit her preteen years, however, their relationship became rocky. They argued about Grace keeping her room clean and doing schoolwork and regularly battled over her use of the phone, social media and other technology.

By the time Grace turned 13, the arguments had escalated to the point that Charisse turned to the police for help several times when Grace yelled at or pushed her. She said she didn’t know about other social services to call instead. In one incident, they argued over Grace taking her mother’s iPhone charger; when police arrived, they discovered she had taken an iPad from her middle school without permission. At her mother’s request, Grace entered a court diversion program in 2018 for “incorrigibility” and agreed to participate in counseling and not use electronic devices. She was released from the program early, her mother said.

A report released last month, which found inadequate legal representation for juveniles in Michigan, noted that research has shown a disproportionate number of youth of color are incarcerated in Michigan overall. Black youth in the state are incarcerated more than four times as often as their white peers, according to an analysis of federal government data by The Sentencing Project, a nonprofit that addresses racial disparities in the criminal justice system.

“It is clear that kids of color are disproportionately involved and impacted by the system across the board,” said Jason Smith of the nonprofit Michigan Center for Youth Justice, which works to reduce the confinement of youth. “They are more likely to be arrested, less likely to be offered any kind of diversion, more likely to be removed out of the home and placed in some sort of confinement situation.”

In Grace’s case, too, she was sent to a facility at a time when the governor had encouraged courts to send children home.

At the county-run Children’s Village, which has space for 216 youth in secure and residential settings, the population was down to 80 last week, according to the facility manager. There have been no COVID-19 cases in the youth population and four workers have tested positive from contacts outside Children’s Village, she said.

During March and April, 97 juveniles were released from Children’s Village by court order, said Pamela Monville, the Oakland County deputy court administrator. “We understood the orders and the concerns to stop the spread,” she said. Judges, caseworkers and attorneys worked together to determine “who could go back to the community,” she added.

Juvenile justice experts and disability advocates decried the decision to remove Grace from her home, particularly when “the state gave clear directives that children, and all people, unless it was a dire emergency, were to be kept out of detention,” said Kristen Staley, co-director of the Midwest Juvenile Defender Center, which works to improve juvenile defense across eight states.

Terri Gilbert, a former supervisor for juvenile justice programming in Michigan and a high-profile advocate, said the system suffers from inconsistencies in treatment and sentencing, aggravated by a lack of public information.

“This is too harsh of a sentence for a kid who didn’t do their homework. … There is so much research that points to the fact that this is not the right response for this crime,” said Gilbert, a member of a governor-appointed committee that focuses on juvenile justice. “Teenage girls act out. They get mouthy. They get into fights with her mothers. They don’t want to get up until noon. This is normal stuff.”

Monville said Brennan, a judge since 2008, “made the decision she made based on what she heard and her experience on the bench.”

But officials at the Michigan Protection & Advocacy Service, the state disabilities watchdog organization, said they were especially troubled that a student with special needs — one of the most vulnerable populations — was punished when students and teachers everywhere couldn’t adjust to online learning.

“It is inconceivable that, given the utterly unprecedented situation, a court would enforce expectations about what student participation in school means that was not tied to the reality of education during a pandemic,” said Kris Keranen, who oversees education for the group.

Charisse says the “greatest pain and devastation” of her life was watching Grace handcuffed in the courtroom. She got a letter in the mail a few days later:





In the first letter to her mother while in detention, Grace wrote, “I want to be a better person.” (Records provided by Grace’s Family)
“I want to change. I want to be a better person. Here I’ve realized how much you care and love me. I’m sorry I took that for granted. Please continue to send me pictures of me and you or just with anyone. I love you mommy and I miss you.”

On Juneteenth, the day that commemorates the end of slavery, Charisse sat alone at her kitchen table, the wall behind her covered with Grace’s childhood artwork. As the country faced a reckoning over systemic racism, the day had taken on increased recognition and Charisse lamented she and Grace couldn’t mark it together as they usually did, attending programs at church or at the Museum of African American History in Detroit.

Charisse made strawberry lemonade with fresh watermelon, a variation on the traditional red Juneteenth drink, and talked to Grace the only way she could, through a video call monitored by a Children’s Village case coordinator. The longest they had ever been separated before was when Grace attended a leadership sleepaway camp for six weeks over the summer.

“Juneteenth is all about freedom and you can’t even celebrate. What do you have? It has been taken away,” she said to her daughter.

Other than three recent visits, they have seen each other only on screen, including during a court status hearing in early June. On that day, Charisse watched as Grace walked into a room at Children’s Village handcuffed and with her ankles shackled, her mother said.

“For us and our culture, that for me was the knife stuck in my stomach and turning,” Charisse said. “That is our history, being shackled. And she didn’t deserve that.”

At the hearing, both Grace and her mother pleaded with the judge to return her home. “I will be respectful and obedient to my mom and all other people with authority,” Grace said. “I beg for your mercy to return me home to my mom and my responsibilities.”

The judge, however, sided with the caseworker and prosecutor. They agreed that Grace should stay at the Children’s Village not as punishment, but to get treatment and services. She ordered her to remain there and set a hearing to review the case for Sept. 8. By then, it will be a week into the new school year.

On Juneteenth, Charisse and Grace spoke for their full allotted 45 minutes. Grace wore a light blue polo shirt her mother had dropped off a few days earlier. Her hair was pushed back with a Lululemon headband.

Their conversation began with the mundane: Charisse reminded Grace to use her deodorant, and Grace said she needed to get her glasses fixed. But it landed, inevitably, at the frustration they both feel.

“I want you to write in your journal,” Charisse told Grace. She urged her “not to get too comfortable” in detention. “I want you to do what you are supposed to do, but I don’t want you to feel like this is your new norm.”

Grace’s initial weeks in detention were “repetitive and depressing,” she recently told ProPublica in response to written questions.

Grace was required to stay in her locked room from 8:30 p.m. to 8:30 a.m. She couldn’t turn the lights on and off herself and she slept on a mattress on a concrete slab, she said. She passed the time by reading, drawing and watching some TV.

The local school district provided packets of material but no classes. She said that she has not yet worked with a teacher in person or online, and that she meets less regularly with a therapist at Children’s Village than she did at home.

She has since been transferred to a long-term treatment program at Children’s Village, where she has a bit more freedom. Still, she tells her mother, it’s difficult to think about what she’s missing. “Everyone is moving past me now and I’m just here,” she said during the Zoom call.

A Children’s Village case coordinator, listening, tried to be encouraging. “You are doing very well right now,” she said. “Whatever happens, it looks good. You are respectful, you are following the rules.”

Then she told them their time was up.

“Stay strong,” Grace told her mom.

“You stay strong, too,” her mother replied. “I love you.”

“I love you, too.”

ProPublica is using middle names for the teenager and her mother to protect their identities.


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## CarefreeinChicago (Jul 16, 2020)

I have been following this story on Twitter and signed the petition 
America disgusts me


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## Kanky (Jul 16, 2020)

The judge in this case seems awful, but the mother is terrible and the reason for this situation.


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## Brwnbeauti (Jul 16, 2020)

This is terrible.


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## LivingInPeace (Jul 16, 2020)

This is an abuse of power. I hope this case gets more attention. There are juvenile gang members who have robbed people and are out on the streets menacing society and they put this girl in jail? Nonsense.


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## yamilee21 (Jul 16, 2020)

For what it’s worth there is a petition: https://www.change.org/p/michigan-s...not-doing-homework?source_location=topic_page

And there was a caravan protest today too: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.hometownlife.com/amp/5449955002


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## Kanky (Jul 16, 2020)

Kanky said:


> By the time Grace turned 13, the arguments had escalated to the point that Charisse turned to the police for help several times when Grace yelled at or pushed her. She said she didn’t know about other social services to call instead. In one incident, they argued over Grace taking her mother’s iPhone charger; when police arrived, they discovered she had taken an iPad from her middle school without permission. At her mother’s request, Grace entered a court diversion program in 2018 for “incorrigibility” and agreed to participate in counseling and not use electronic devices. She was released from the program early, her mother said.


I am just amazed at the mother. No one with an ounce of sense would think that the police or the criminal justice system are going to make your parenting problems any better. But instead of getting a therapist and learning to do better this black mother called the police on a 12/13 year old over an argument about an iPhone charger.   Now she is “crying on the side of the road” about her kid being locked up. What does she think that police and criminal justice system do? They don’t raise people to be emotionally healthy fully functional adults who go on to live happy lives. That was her job. I feel sorry for the daughter, but the mom’s dramatics about Juneteenth and crying are just obnoxious. Her daughter will probably never recover from this mess and it was entirely avoidable.

People are protesting and trying to get Grace freed now, but if something can’t be done to fix her crappy home life then she is doomed anyway.


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## guudhair (Jul 17, 2020)

So the mother is 59 or  60 years old raising a child alone.  I wish she had a better support system.  She seems to be afraid of her or afraid to discipline her herself.  I question her judgement for being 44 years old having sex with the loser who decided he didn’t want to be involved in his daughter’s life.

I do wonder if the child is extremely smart and her talent hasn’t been discovered and challenged yet.  

Wishing both of them the best.


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## Kanky (Jul 21, 2020)

The judge still won't let Grace go home. 

https://www.propublica.org/article/...k?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social#980494


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## dicapr (Jul 21, 2020)

guudhair said:


> So the mother is 59 or  60 years old raising a child alone.  I wish she had a better support system.  She seems to be afraid of her or afraid to discipline her herself.  I question her judgement for being 44 years old having sex with the loser who decided he didn’t want to be involved in his daughter’s life.
> 
> I do wonder if the child is extremely smart and her talent hasn’t been discovered and challenged yet.
> 
> Wishing both of them the best.



I think your assessment of mom is a little harsh She didn’t know she could have children. So she probably wasn’t vetting potential fathers.


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## Evolving78 (Jul 21, 2020)

Kanky said:


> The judge still won't let Grace go home.
> 
> https://www.propublica.org/article/...k?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social#980494


That hurts. This girl needs an advocate and her mother needs to show she is capable of being able to raise this girl. Her mother got the Law involved, and that’s where she went wrong. I wish there was a way to contact the mother and help her locate some resources.


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## guudhair (Jul 21, 2020)

dicapr said:


> I think your assessment of mom is a little harsh She didn’t know she could have children. So she probably wasn’t vetting potential fathers.



It’s the fact that she had sex with the loser in the first place.  I’m sure his loser tendencies were in full effect while they were dating.

If he was a true “one, night stand”...she met and had sex with him on the same day...and one time only, I would feel different.  But if she actually knew him before having sex, I stand by what I said.

Many things can be avoided if women stop having sex with losers.


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## Everything Zen (Jul 21, 2020)

Wayminute- she ain’t in that facility for not completing homework:


*Grace was a high school sophomore in Birmingham Public Schools when she was charged with assault and theft last year, for incidents in which she bit her mother’s finger and pulled her hair and stole another student’s cellphone.*

She was placed on probation in mid-April and, among other requirements, was to complete her schoolwork. Grace, who has ADHD and receives special education services, struggled with the transition to online learning and fell behind when Groves High School stopped in-person learning because of COVID-19. Her probation officer filed a violation against her on May 5, two weeks into the probation.

On May 14, Brennan found Grace guilty of violating probation for “failure to submit any schoolwork and getting up for school.” *She ordered her detained, concluding Grace was a “threat to (the) community” based on the prior charges of assault and theft. * Grace was placed in secure detention at Children’s Village, in suburban Detroit, for about three weeks and then transferred to a residential treatment program within the facility.

Nah- she can stay a few months. She’ll be alright. I’m too familiar with situations like this


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## LdyKamz (Jul 21, 2020)

Everything Zen said:


> Wayminute- she ain’t in that facility for not completing homework:
> 
> 
> *Grace was a high school sophomore in Birmingham Public Schools when she was charged with assault and theft last year, for incidents in which she bit her mother’s finger and pulled her hair and stole another student’s cellphone.*
> ...


But the violation is for not completing homework. She was placed on probation for those previous offenses and she hasn't committed any crimes like that since (from the way the article reads). So I don't think missing some homework assignments should get her thrown back in based on those offenses. If it was just a day or 2 to teach her lesson that would be different. But she's basically being punished all over again for prior offenses. I realize homework was part of the probation but it's such a minor infraction especially when you take into account the current state of the world and how restless, anxious and sluggish most children are right now, many of whom are probably letting their studies slide.

This child could possibly need this intervention and this may be good for her. But I can't pretend the reasoning behind it is just and fair.


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## Evolving78 (Jul 21, 2020)

Everything Zen said:


> Wayminute- she ain’t in that facility for not completing homework:
> 
> 
> *Grace was a high school sophomore in Birmingham Public Schools when she was charged with assault and theft last year, for incidents in which she bit her mother’s finger and pulled her hair and stole another student’s cellphone.*
> ...


Wow she is very aggressive! I think going to a treatment program might help. They will teach her coping skills and she will have group therapy. I wonder how much time did she get?


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## Everything Zen (Jul 21, 2020)

LdyKamz said:


> But the violation is for not completing homework. She was placed on probation for those previous offenses and she hasn't committed any crimes like that since (from the way the article reads). So I don't think missing some homework assignments should get her thrown back in based on those offenses. If it was just a day or 2 to teach her lesson that would be different. But she's basically being punished all over again for prior offenses. I realize homework was part of the probation but it's such a minor infraction especially when you take into account the current state of the world and how restless, anxious and sluggish most children are right now, many of whom are probably letting their studies slide.
> 
> This child could possibly need this intervention and this may be good for her. But I can't pretend the reasoning behind it is just and fair.



From the way the article reads.

The title of the original was misleading as well.

The judge is probably looking into the entire situation and the child has ADHD and probably some other special needs in addition to her living situation in the middle  of the pandemic with a mom that is really not equipped to support her in the way that she truly needs it. I know it’s sounds cruel and heart breaking but better now and nip these issues in the bud if you can. 

Nah- my mom was a juvenile probation officer for 20 years and retired the director of a foster care agency so I grew up listening to these cases and going to court.

I’m also personally too close for comfort to some similarly messed up kids (more than one) so I know how this  goes. 

It’s only a few months- let her finish the program. She’ll be aight.


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## dicapr (Jul 21, 2020)

guudhair said:


> It’s the fact that she had sex with the loser in the first place.  I’m sure his loser tendencies were in full effect while they were dating.
> 
> If he was a true “one, night stand”...she met and had sex with him on the same day...and one time only, I would feel different.  But if she actually knew him before having sex, I stand by what I said.
> 
> Many things can be avoided if women stop having sex with losers.



I still think you are reaching.  She couldn’t have children. She wasn’t screening for men who were good fathers or who might step up if she got pregnant because it wasn’t a possibility for her. 

If you can’t have kids what type of father a man might be doesn’t come into the conversation because it is irrelevant. And if a man flat out tells you he doesn’t want kids it isn’t something you are too concerned about if you are infertile.  
I can’t blame someone for not preparing for an eventuality they never thought was possible. Why would you be careful to not be involved with a potentially dead beat dad if you couldn’t have children?


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## guudhair (Jul 22, 2020)

dicapr said:


> Why would you be careful to not be involved with a potentially dead beat dad if you couldn’t have children?



Because it’s a wise thing to do.

I think you are missing my point.  It has nothing to do with her ability to have children or that she has one now.  Dead beat males have trash characteristics/tendencies whether they have kids or not.  So if she already knew him, I’m pretty sure he said and/or did some dead beat things before she had unprotected sex with him.  No women of any age should give these losers the privilege of having sex with them.

OAN:  It does make me wonder what his status is.


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## Theresamonet (Jul 22, 2020)

Mom was trying to use the police and the court system as her own Scared Straight program. But that’s not what it’s for. Once you get your child involved in the system, they are out of your control. Those offenses would have never ended that child in juvenile court if it were not for mom’s poor parenting and poor judgement. Now she got her child on probation, and let her sit up in her house and violate that probation. What did she expect to happen? And it’s not a single missed homework assignment. The child stopped waking up for classes altogether.

I think the courts and probation officer saw that this mother has no control or influence over this child, and they took her. It sounds like she is doing what is required of her in the detention facility, ADHD and all. And finding some new appreciation for her mother.

Of course, I know it likely would have gone down differently if this were a white family. But mom is twice my age, and should know how this white man’s world works. Her black ass should have sought assistance parenting her black child elsewhere.


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## spacetygrss (Jul 22, 2020)

Evolving78 said:


> Wow she is very aggressive! I think going to a treatment program might help. They will teach her coping skills and she will have group therapy. I wonder how much time did she get?


I agree that she definitely needs a treatment program. 
From what the article is saying, she is currently getting LESS treatment in juvenile detention than she had on the outside.
It seems that an inpatient counseling/psych facility would be good for awhile. However, those places are in SHORT supply (we keep people in inpatient hospital beds for weeks sometimes while looking for placement).

Perhaps there is a middle ground here. She could possibly be released to her mother's care and go to a day program for kids with psych issues if they have them in her area. 
Perhaps she could be released to her mother and have Telemedicine therapy visits (since we're in the middle of a pandemic) so that she actually has more therapy sessions that she's currently getting.

Ultimately, the entire situation is sad. Locking this child up without appropriate therapy isn't going to fix the situation. It's just going to lead to further issues in the future.


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## Theresamonet (Jul 22, 2020)

^^ But does she have psych issues or is she a typical teenager with issues with authority and boundaries? This whole thing is silly because she hasn’t done anything that should have landed her in a detention center or a psych facility. If anything, it sounds like what she needed was some discipline and structure, a strong authority figure. Unfortunately, mom could not provide this, so the court has.


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## spacetygrss (Jul 24, 2020)

Theresamonet said:


> ^^ But does she have psych issues or is she a typical teenager with issues with authority and boundaries? This whole thing is silly because she hasn’t done anything that should have landed her in a detention center or a psych facility. If anything, it sounds like what she needed was some discipline and structure, a strong authority figure. Unfortunately, mom could not provide this, so the court has.



 I agree that not doing homework shouldn't have landed her in juvenile detention.

However, I saw from the article that she has ADHD and is already in counseling. Psychiatry is not my particular area of medicine, but I'm going to guess that there is some other stuff going on. It could be something like oppositional defiant disorder, severe anxiety, etc. Kids who have those issues aren't just "typical teenagers." They need real help from professionals.

None of that is to say that I think that juvenile detention is where I think that she needs to be. I think that she (and Mom) needs to be getting an appropriate amount of  THERAPY.


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## Kurlee (Jul 24, 2020)

dp.


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## Kurlee (Jul 24, 2020)

guudhair said:


> It’s the fact that she had sex with the loser in the first place.  I’m sure his loser tendencies were in full effect while they were dating.
> 
> If he was a true “one, night stand”...she met and had sex with him on the same day...and one time only, I would feel different.  But if she actually knew him before having sex, I stand by what I said.
> 
> Many things can be avoided if women stop having sex with losers.


But that was at least 15 years ago and looking back there does nothing to help the situation now.  The child seems to have violent tendencies.  We need strategies that aren't predicated on going back in time to judge the sexual relationship–that we will never really know the details of– of a grown behind single woman in her mid-40s .


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## guudhair (Jul 24, 2020)

Kurlee said:


> But that was at least 15 years ago and looking back there does nothing to help the situation now.  The child seems to have violent tendencies.  We need strategies that aren't predicated on going back in time to judge the sexual relationship–that we will never really know the details of– of a grown behind single woman in her mid-40s .



Her situation started 15 years ago; however, there may be girls and young women reading this article/thread who may also be thinking about having sex with a loser.  All strategies should include preventive measures and the most effective ones include looking at the past.  It will not help her but it may help someone else since every lesson learned doesn’t (shouldn’t) have to come from first hand experience.    

The only thing I can do for this particular woman and child is what I mentioned in my first post...Wishing them both the best as well as for the mother to have a better support system.

Also, my comment about questioning her judgement wasn’t to “judge” or be derogatory towards her.   I just wonder what was going on in her life at that age to decide to have sex with that type of guy.


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## Kurlee (Jul 25, 2020)

guudhair said:


> Her situation started 15 years ago; *however, there may be girls and young women reading this article/thread who may also be thinking about having sex with a loser.*  All strategies should include preventive measures and the most effective ones include looking at the past.  It will not help her but it may help someone else since every lesson learned doesn’t (shouldn’t) have to come from first hand experience.
> 
> The only thing I can do for this particular woman and child is what I mentioned in my first post...Wishing them both the best as well as for the mother to have a better support system.
> 
> *Also, my comment about questioning her judgement wasn’t to “judge” or be derogatory towards her. * *I just wonder what was going on in her life at that age to decide to have sex with that type of guy.*


Maybe she was a regular woman with sexual needs and wanted to hook up with someone to get her needs met? Maybe she was dating and not celibate? And when you say "that type of guy", it's relatively plausible that he didn't show himself until they were both surprised when she got pregnant in her mid 40s.  The reality is, that if marriage is the goal in your rationale, then yes, many women will unfortunately deal with a lot of losers before they find the right one. Hindsight is always 20/20. Unless of course, they wait to have sex until marriage and even then, they may find out over time that they have married a loser.  There are obvious losers of course, but many relationships don't work out because over time one or both of the people figure out that they aren't compatible or they see undesirable traits in their partner.

That aside, I find your questioning of her mother's judgement based on like two lines in that long article wild because she didn't seem to even think she could get pregnant.  It does come off super derogatory and judgemental in regard to mate choices and age of conception. Many Black women struggle to find suitable partners well into their 30s and 40s and I have questioned on this forum many times what BW can tangibly do in these situations and nobody ever has a solution that doesn't involve denial or  a time machine.

I find it fascinating how so many women–and without many facts or evidence–have an affinity for judging/shaming/projecting onto other Black women for their reproductive choices and always lay the blame at the feet of the mothers doing their best, while ignoring the trifling fathers, as if to kind of imply that the child shouldn't even exist because of whatever they anticipate the outcome of a non-traditional environment may be.  I find it kind of disgusting and again, given where we are in the story, the last thing this family and this girl need is social stigmatization and suspicion around the circumstances of the her birth. It's rude and unnecessary. Instead, maybe she needs some empathy, advocacy, educational and mental health supports, and removal from juvenile detention?

You are also assuming that it's because the father was trash why the young girl is where she is and that may not be the case.  She has a diagnosed mental/behavioural disorder and only started acting out recently after having a very good relationship with her mother growing up.  There could be a host of reasons for this, which we may never know including bullying at school, racism and low expectations at school, poor curriculum, sexual assault, social exclusion, undiagnosed depression, a death in the family, some kind of unexpected trauma, and on and on. Research shows that due to many of the above reasons, Black kids in particular, tend to be disengaged from school.

Lastly, kids and adults from all walks of life,  are struggling in this global pandemic to be motivated, to complete work/school online, and maintain their mental health status. This girl's existing mental health issues may have simply been exacerbated by the pandemic.  The harsh response to her is adultifying,  racist, and without empathy. Period.


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## guudhair (Jul 25, 2020)

Kurlee said:


> Maybe she was a regular woman with sexual needs and wanted to hook up with someone to get her needs met? Maybe she was dating and not celibate? And when you say "that type of guy", it's relatively plausible that he didn't show himself until they were both surprised when she got pregnant in her mid 40s.  The reality is, that if marriage is the goal in your rationale, then yes, many women will unfortunately deal with a lot of losers before they find the right one. Hindsight is always 20/20. Unless of course, they wait to have sex until marriage and even then, they may find out over time that they have married a loser.  There are obvious losers of course, but many relationships don't work out because over time one or both of the people figure out that they aren't compatible or they see undesirable traits in their partner.
> 
> That aside, I find your questioning of her mother's judgement based on like two lines in that long article wild because she didn't seem to even think she could get pregnant.  It does come off super derogatory and judgemental in regard to mate choices and age of conception. Many Black women struggle to find suitable partners well into their 30s and 40s and I have questioned on this forum many times what BW can tangibly do in these situations and nobody ever has a solution that doesn't involve denial or  a time machine.
> 
> ...



I find it fascinating that you came to all of those conclusions by me questioning the mother’s decision to have sex with that particular trash dude.

*“She has raised Grace on her own after the girl’s father did not want to be involved, she said.”*

This doesn’t seem like the, “it just didn’t work out” type of guy.  If it was, they would be co-parenting like many other couples with children whose relationship didn’t work out. 

My comment is simply, of all the men a 44 year old woman could have had sex with, why would she (or any woman) give this type of guy the privilege.  While that may be “derogatory, disgusting, rude, adultifying, racist,” etc to you (and presumably others)...it’s not to me.

To be clear, I don’t assume many (except one) of those things you concluded and never mentioned anything about her sexual needs, reproductive choices, marriage goals, etc.  Nor did I mention that it’s her fault that her daughter has behavioral issues.  I blame the trash father as I do with just about everything involving women and children.


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## Kurlee (Jul 25, 2020)

guudhair said:


> I find it fascinating that you came to all of those conclusions by me questioning the mother’s decision to have sex with that particular trash dude.
> 
> *“She has raised Grace on her own after the girl’s father did not want to be involved, she said.”*
> 
> ...


We can agree to disagree.


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## Theresamonet (Jul 25, 2020)

guudhair said:


> I find it fascinating that you came to all of those conclusions by me questioning the mother’s decision to have sex with that particular trash dude.
> 
> *“She has raised Grace on her own after the girl’s father did not want to be involved, she said.”*
> 
> ...



You're making too many assumptions. The only thing we know about the father is that he didn’t want this child. We don’t have any information that would tell us that he was known to be a “loser” prior to her getting pregnant, and that she overlooked some red flag. He could have been exactly the type of guy a woman who was told she couldn’t get pregnant would want. Successful, educated, seemingly respectable men ditch their kids too.


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## LdyKamz (Jul 25, 2020)

Theresamonet said:


> You're making too many assumptions. The only thing we know about the father is that he didn’t want this child. We don’t have any information that would tell us that he was known to be a “loser” prior to her getting pregnant, and that she overlooked some red flag. *He could have been exactly the type of guy a woman who was told she couldn’t get pregnant would want*. Successful, educated, seemingly respectable men ditch their kids too.


Agreed. It's likely she probably chose a man who didn't want children specifically because she couldn't have them, which in that case would be 1. a perfect match for her and 2. a healthy, responsible choice (instead of the incredibly bad decision the other poster is making it out to be). But then whoops she's pregnant and dude could have reminded her that he never wanted children and decided not to be involved. 

Either way, none of us know what happened there and this isn't about that anyway.


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## Reinventing21 (Jul 26, 2020)

Thank you @Kurlee & @LdyKamz 


The direction in which some of these assumptions made me question if I had read the article correctly or had missed something.  I read the article again a couple times to be sure.


You both already made every point I thought.

I will say this tho...sometimes people do not understand behavioral/emotional/mental disorders in kids and automatically assume bad parenting.  For example I know of two very different families with each with a child who are almost identical in behavior. One teen  grew up in a difficult situation that one would expect to turn out that way; the other grew up in the standard two parents, both educated, nice home, early therapy etc. The outcomes, however for both teens are eerily too similar. The noticeable difference is that the former for a short period got involved in serious mischief. The other had to change schools a thousand times due to things that could have gone so much worse if the parents hadn't exhausted themeselves endlessly. Both these teens are formally diagnosed.

Last point: People also assume there is a magical 'grown up' age when you should just know everything and make perfect decisions when in fact it is more about life experience, what you have been exposed to and the supports you have.


All that said, I do wish the mom had been directed to a crisis hotline for parents dealing with a physically out of control teen. There are not enough details in this article to really know what interventions steps were taken leading up to the latest chain of events.

I pray the daughter will learn how to function in a positive way and both get the the help and support they need.


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## Kurlee (Jul 26, 2020)

Reinventing21 said:


> Thank you @Kurlee & @LdyKamz
> 
> 
> The direction in which some of these assumptions made me question if I had read the article correctly or had missed something.  I read the article again a couple times to be sure.
> ...


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