# Who believes that NO ONE IS SAVED yet?



## Poohbear (Feb 16, 2011)

I was reading this article on Going to Jesus.com and it makes a lot of sense regarding the whole notion of salvation.  This sentence stuck out to me the most:



> ...salvation is the future reward for faithful saints and that God's children should strive to be found worthy to receive it (Lk. 13:24)...



Here is the rest of the article:

*Salvation & Conversion*
Are you saved? Is it the same thing as conversion? Many are asked that question as if the two things are the same! No one in the Bible ever spoke of the day that they "got saved" as so many people do in this time. What does the Bible say about the subjects of salvation and being saved?

Jesus said that he who endures to the end will be saved. Paul wrote of the "hope of salvation" and Peter spoke of salvation being the end of our faith to be revealed in the latter time. What is the truth? Are you already saved, or not?

Study this page to learn the truth about Salvation. There are also audio clips taken from the What Must I Do to be Saved CD teaching series. Click on an article title in the box in the right column to read from a range of articles covering different aspects of the truth about salvation.

*Gospel Tract
What is Salvation?*
by John David Clark, Sr.

_"And when he was gone forth in the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do, that I may inherit eternal life?

And he said to him, If you would enter into life, keep the commandments." (Mk. 10:17; Mt. 19:17)_

Our language is a "living language", and as such, it is constantly changing. Some words are becoming obsolete, while new words are continually being added. This is a normal process, but there are some unfortunate victims. For example, "gay" once meant "light-hearted and joyous"; now, however, gay is most often used as a synonym for "homosexual". This is a tragic loss to our language, for there is no single word which can adequately replace "gay" as it once was used.

A biblical word whose meaning has been recently changed is "saved". In the 20th century, Christians altered its meaning so that "saved" is most often used now to mean "converted". But it is not so used in the Scriptures.

When Jesus said, "He who endures to the end shall be saved", was he saying that he who endures to the end shall be converted? Of course not. Or when Paul wrote, "Now is our salvation nearer than when we believed", was he saying that our conversion is nearer than when we believed? Of course not. The clear meaning of both these statements is that salvation is the future reward for faithful saints and that God's children should strive to be found worthy to receive it (Lk. 13:24).

Who, then, first altered the definition of salvation to mean "conversion"? I do not know. But I do know that it is a definition foreign to the Scriptures and that it is non-biblical to claim that we are "saved" merely because we are converted to Christ.

So often, we tend to accept life as it is handed to us, and sometimes we are not harmed by doing so. But to receive without question religious doctrines handed to us is extremely dangerous to our spiritual health. Isn't it revealing, concerning our priorities, that none of us would tolerate a dirty dish in a restaurant, yet so few have diligently searched the Scriptures to ascertain the cleanliness of the doctrines they are taught?

Eating from a dirty spiritual dish is what happened in the early 20th century when believers blindly received Christianity's new definition for salvation. It is astonishing that so few seem to have noticed that this modern usage of the word "saved" differs significantly from its biblical usage. Biblically speaking, conversion is available now in Christ for all who repent of their sins; salvation, however, is the final reward promised to converts if they are faithful to Christ after their conversion (Heb. 5:8-9). Conversion and salvation are not the same experience! Conversion begins our earthly walk with Christ, and salvation ends it.

Most frequently, salvation is referred to in the New Testament as a future hope, not as a past or present experience. Sometimes, "saved" is used in the present tense with the meaning of "healed" or "rescued", but the notion among many modern Christians that a believer already has salvation simply because he believes in Jesus is foreign to the Bible. Salvation is glorification with Christ, and none of us has received that yet.

When the rich young ruler asked Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life, Jesus responded, "If you would enter into life, keep the commandments" (Mt. 19:17). Please notice that according to the Lord Jesus, the way to salvation is the way of obedience to the commandments of God! Why else would Jesus point the wealthy young man to the commandments of God as the answer to his question? My dear friends, as much as our carnal nature would love to have it so, there is no formula, no ceremony, no single event or confession that can save anyone.

Jesus warned us not to believe that a mere confession of faith in him will save us. He said, "Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord', will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Nor will merely knowing what is right save us, for "not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law will be justified" (Rom. 2:13). Nor should we think that the presence of spiritual gifts will save us, for the Lord said, "Many will say in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works?' And then I will profess to them, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'"

There is no way around it - we must do the will of God if we hope to be saved in the end. Without a life of holiness, "no man will see the Lord" (Heb. 12:14). The truth is never more complicated than that.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Is there anyone here that believes this? If so, please share your thoughts.

If you don't believe that salvation is a future reward, why not? Do you believe you are saved at the first time you believe in Christ?


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## Guitarhero (Feb 16, 2011)

MEEEEEE!  I so agree with this.  You ain't saved until you are saved and crossed to the other side.  That's where perseverance comes in.  I truly comprehend the faith now...all that humility of believers, particularly older folks who are traditionally raised.  Just that it's always via mercy and I realize that my hand never directs that.


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## Poohbear (Feb 16, 2011)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> MEEEEEE!  I so agree with this.  You ain't saved until you are saved and crossed to the other side.  That's where perseverance comes in.  I truly comprehend the faith now...all that humility of believers, particularly older folks who are traditionally raised.  Just that it's always via mercy and I realize that my hand never directs that.



Thanks Volver Alma Gitana! I'm starting to believe this too.  This has helped with some of the confusion I have been going through. I've been taught this "once saved always saved" doctrine and you are saved once you go up in front of the "church" and answer those three questions (Do you believe Jesus is the Son of God? Died on the cross for your sins? Rose on the 3rd day with all power in His hands?) from the Baptist preacher and get baptized in water. Then you are considered a sinner saved by grace and that you can confess your sins to God and he'll just forgive you over and over. But after awhile, it started to not make any sense because of the whole notion of sin. You can't claim salvation while sinning like hell all day long.  After reading this article, it was like a big light switch went on in my head.


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## BeautifulFlower (Feb 16, 2011)

I dont believe this concept.


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## Aviah (Feb 17, 2011)

I'm not sure what I think about this, but it actually doesn't matter in a sense. We will all see in the end, and so long as we are living as right as possible in God, it doesn't make a difference (not to be rude, but obviously this is IMO).


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## DDTexlaxed (Feb 17, 2011)

The Bible says you have to endure to the end to be saved. So, it means either the end of your life or the end of the end times. JMHO.


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## Rainbow Dash (Feb 17, 2011)

You are saved at the time you accept Christ. *As long as we are in Christ*, *we are saved.* When a person decides to walk away and not endure till the return, they are are in danger of losing salvation. 

The key is to remain in Christ. Christ will bring us physically to perfection on the day of the Lord, but we are saved at conversion. If we dont take hold of the gift of salvation through Christ by faith, we miss out on the life that Christ wants us to live now. 

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." John 3:36

Keep walking in the way.


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## makeupgirl (Feb 17, 2011)

This is from BBN How to get to Heaven

Which shares how can a non-believer can get to heaven...which is only through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior according to John 14:6

First the bad news.

Because we have sinned we are born separated from God.  Without intervention, we are ineligible for Heaven.  This applies to the entire human race.  You are not alone. 

Romans 3:23 says, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" 

Romans 3:10 says, "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:" 

Romans 6:23a "For the wages of sin is death;" 

Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:" 

There is no amount of good works we can do to save ourselves from being eternally separated from God. 

Ephesians 2:8-9 say, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." 

To be separated from God forever, simply do nothing.  To ignore or reject God's son is the only sin that can keep a person out of Heaven and the only alternative to Heaven is eternal torment in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:15, 2 Thes. 1:7-9).   

John 3:18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." 

But there is good news! 

There is a simple and free way to be reconciled with God made possible by God's only son Jesus.  A blood sacrifice was needed to pay for your sins and Jesus was sent to become that sacrifice.  He was nailed to a Roman cross to shed His blood in payment for your sin.  Then three days after His death, He rose from the dead, validating once and for all His qualification to be our only Savior.   

Placing your complete trust in Jesus' death, burial and resurrection is God's one and only means of reaching Heaven. 

Jesus said (John 14:6), "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life:, no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." 

John 3:16 & 17 are clear. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." 

The Bible clearly tells us how to be saved: 

Romans 10:9-10 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." 

This is a free gift from God because He loves you. 

Romans 6:23b "but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." 

Romans 10:13 "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." 

Are you ready to believe right now?   If so, simply tell God what he asked you to confess.  You might use a prayer similar to this one: 

"God, I admit to you that I am a sinner and I know I cannot do anything to earn my way to Heaven.  I truly believe that Jesus died on the cross, was buried and rose from the grave.  I put my faith in His sacrifice to pay for my sin in full."


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## makeupgirl (Feb 17, 2011)

Poohbear and anyone else that believe what this commentary from gotojesus.com, John David Clark Sr, or any other sites that has their words written so eloquently that you start to believe the lie that Satan wants you to believe.  

Check out what I wrote in this Beware of the unholy trinity 

There are false prophets, false teachers, and anything out there that will get you to doubt your salvation, God's word, and Christ himself.  Do you not know that this is the work of Satan?  Each time we fall for his tricks, we give place to the devil and he is up there in Heaven mocking you to our Heavenly Father.  I can picture it, "ha ha ha, your humble servant is doubting your word and their salvation.  Much like my children in the world. I guess your sacriface was for nothing"  Picture that if you will.  

The bible is clear on how to receive Christ, how to receive eternal life.  Why go to believe something else?  If you are doubting, then know that Satan is at the helm of this demonic spirit of doubt.  Get it out of you by confess and repenting to God now.  Then talk to him about what you're feeling.  He already knows, but would like for you to tell him yourself.  


2 Thessalonians 2 - Pay attention to the bold
 1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 

 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 

 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 

 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 

 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 

 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 

*7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. * 

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 

 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 

*10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 

 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: * 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 

 13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 

 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 

 15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 

 16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 

 17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.


I come to you with love as my sisters in Christ because I don't want to see anyone condemned for eternal life in the lake of fire for not trusting, believing, and receiving Christ as there Lord and Savior.  And I'm sorry but this commentary from gotojesus.com is contrary to what is in the bible.  I"ve checked this dude out.  HOW can he question whether or not the bible is God's word?  HOW can he question that no one is saved yet based off his perceptions even though it is clear that it's by grace through faith we are saved (ephesians 2:8-9) 

Matt 7:13-20 
13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 

 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 

*15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 

 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 

 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 

 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 

 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 

 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. *

These very false prophets will go before the Lord and claim that they have worked solely for his name sake.  Not only them, but them religious folk who have song on the choir, tithe, preached, usher, gave to the poor, scream and shout, did cartwheels and passed out, etc...etc...etc.. They know of Christ, the know everything about him, even how to get to Heaven through him but they don't have a relationship, they don't truly know him, know him.  Check this out: 

Matt 7: 21-23

*21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 

 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 

 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. *

Religion is man's attempt to reach God.  Google it.  It received a lot of hits and believe me they will tell you that religion is a sin and against God's word and it is.  

The *gospel is only the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. * Not anything else.

Anyone that tells you something differently, pay attention because they are of the anti-christ, because they are against Christ.  

Ladies, study the bible for yourself.  Ask the Holy Spirit for the understanding as the word is brought forth.  Again, I come in love to tell you this.  Satan is at work and he's always at work because he is buying time.  He knows he's destined for hell and the lake of fire.  This dude is not stupid, so lets never underestimate him.  

Lets continue to pray for our spiritual growth as well continue to do the work of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.  The God of our salvation, the alpha and omega, beginning and the end.


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## Guitarhero (Feb 17, 2011)

My belief in enduring until the end is based upon my church teachings...not any other ministry.  We all have diff. "spiritual" language...but we're basically saying the same thing.  I just wouldn't want to rob a bank then die immediately hehehe.


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## Honi (Feb 17, 2011)

Ask yourself this question.

Can a sinner just renounce the enemy just by doing good and have him leave them alone?  
The answer is No!

Well....why do we think that once we are saved that we will be renounced by Jesus just by doing something bad?


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## Guitarhero (Feb 17, 2011)

A priest gave a homily the other day talking about confession and how this one in Italy started out his confession.  You normally go in, kneel, cross yourself, ask for a blessing, state when your last confession was...etc., priest listens...gives you advice, absolution and penance...dismisses you in prayer and you leave.  Well, that Italian priest?  He greeted his congregants with, "how long will you serve your dark l-rd?"  Talk about being taken aback!  Makes you truly think about it.  And these are words to those who _are_ following Christ.  You don't repent if you are not His.


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## makeupgirl (Feb 17, 2011)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> *My belief in enduring until the end is based upon my church teachings...not any other ministry. We all have diff. "spiritual" language.*..but we're basically saying the same thing. I just wouldn't want to rob a bank then die immediately hehehe.


 
I don't understand.  What exactly are we enduring until the end?  Do you mean that we are to continue to trust, believe, and have faith in God and his plan for our lives as he strengthen us until we die physically or raptured? or that we should endure based on temptations, trials, sufferings, and our works to prove that we are for Christ, then receive the reward of eternal life based on those works?  

Lets' use something like this as an example:

Example # 1

I accepted Christ as my savior, became a new creature based on his word, as well as receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  Then I say, ok I'm in Christ, I have eternal life.  I'm done and then go about my business acting like I was when I didn't have Christ in me.  So, I live 30 years, never went to church to fellowship and worship, never went to bible study or parttake in any form of bible studying, never prayed, never witnessed, etc.  But, I was good according to the worldly point of view because I didn't kill anyone, I didn't steal, never took the Lord's name in vain, never cursed, never got a speeding ticket, etc.  Well, then I die, stand before the Lord and still receive eternal life because I did receive Christ in my life but my works don't show it. 

Well I received Christ, was saved by him, accepted him by grace through faith - I have eternal life and will live forever with Christ in heaven.  

Example # 2

I've heard all about Christ and I know that he died on the cross for my sins.  But I go to church, I read my bible, I tithe, I help the elderly, I start a Christian blog.  I'm also a pastor.  But, I was good according to the worldly point of view because I didn't kill anyone, I didn't steal, never took the Lord's name in vain, never cursed, never got a speeding ticket, etc.  Well, then I die, stand before the Lord and I am sentenced to hell because I didn't do what the bible said to do to receive eternal life.  I don't have a relationship with Christ.  I never receive him into my life.  I don't have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  

Eternal damnation is my punishment because even though I did everything that a "Christian" is suppose to do as far as tithing, reading the bible, helping out the poor and elderly, preach in the church; I never receive Christ into my life because I never confessed and repented that I was a sinner. I didn't become a new creature in Christ because I didn't believe in the death, burial, resurrection of Christ.  I never believe that Jesus is God, well I knew that he died on the cross for my sins but I just didn't believe it nor did I believe that he took on human flesh and became sin for us who knew no sin.  Lastly, I didn't believe that Jesus wasn't enough to save me because I chose to work to get into heaven, instead of trusting and believing in what the bible said that I must be born again only through Jesus Christ.  

Isn't it funny how example 1 got into heaven because all she did was trusted and believe in Christ and believed in her heart and confessed with her mouth that Jesus is Lord and that he was rised from the dead.  

No not every ministry, church teachings, etc have the same "spiritual" language that is saying the same thing, because some teach according to the word of God and recognize that it's infallable and then the other, teach according to their own methods.  As believers in Christ, our belief should be in Christ and his teachings, which is from Genesis to Revelation. That's why we should study the word for ourselves.


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## Guitarhero (Feb 17, 2011)

^^^Enduring holding up the walk _with_ Christ...being just, abiding by His rules, being like Him, repenting and turning away continually when you mess up. People can "believe" all day long about G-d but until they pick up that walk, * think it's not worth much, imho.  Faith without works is dead.


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## BeautifulFlower (Feb 17, 2011)

I would not. However, being a saved Christian man doesnt mean much to me either. I need you to hold 3 values: 

1. A praying man. Prayer is the lifeline and blood supply of your walk with God. If you not praying, you not growing in God. 
2. Open to correction. Its impossible to grow in Christ if you are not humble and willing to regularly repent of sin. Not my correction but correction from godly counsel or the Word. 
3. Go to church. I prefer we have the same pastor, listen to the same Word, so our lives can more and more merge together.



Honi said:


> Ask yourself this question.
> 
> Can a sinner just renounce the enemy just by doing good and have him leave them alone?
> The answer is No!
> ...


 
You wont renounce Jesus at all but you add a level on influence in your life that overtime will more than likely lead you far away from Christ. The two become one so if you not pulling your spouse to God with you then you're getting pulled away. And for a wife that wants to please, she gonna go with her husband and mirror/complement his lifestyle. It happens ALL the time. Bey and Jay for example.


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## makeupgirl (Feb 17, 2011)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> A priest gave a homily the other day talking about confession and how this one in Italy started out his confession. You normally go in, kneel, cross yourself, ask for a blessing, state when your last confession was...etc., priest listens...gives you advice, absolution and penance...dismisses you in prayer and you leave. Well, that Italian priest? He greeted his congregants with, "how long will you serve your dark l-rd?" Talk about being taken aback! Makes you truly think about it. And these are words to those who _are_ following Christ. You don't repent if you are not His.


 
Well, Christ is the mediator between God and man. 

2 Tim 2:5  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (This verse is for Christians who have already trusted and believed in Christ)  

Jesus is the high priest, the head of the church.  Why?  because he is the only way to God the Father. The gospel of Christ is the power of salvation to anyone that believeth and receiveth, then they shall have eternal life.


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## Guitarhero (Feb 17, 2011)

makeupgirl said:


> Well, Christ is the mediator between God and man.
> 
> 2 Tim 2:5  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
> 
> ...




Just belief in G-d isn't going to cut it.  You could believe that He is the Messiah then go out and rob a bank and shack up with a harem 25/7, embezzle, do all manner of evil things...but until that walk comes in line with the teachings of Christ (we're not talking a perfect walk...there is forgiveness) and the person actively repents, seeking to get back on that road, it's all in vain, imho.


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## makeupgirl (Feb 17, 2011)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> ^^^Enduring holding up the walk _with_ Christ...being just, abiding by His rules, being like Him, repenting and turning away continually when you mess up. People can "believe" all day long about G-d but until they pick up that walk, * think it's not worth much, imho. Faith without works is dead.


 

*Romans 8*


*1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. *
* 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. *
*3*For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 
*4*That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 
*5*For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 
*6*For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 
*7*Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 
*8*So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 
*9*But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 
* 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. *
* 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. *
*12*Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 
*13*For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 
*14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. *
* 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. *
* 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: *
* 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.* 
*18*For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 
*19*For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 
* 20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, *
* 21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. *
* 22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. *
* 23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. *
*24*For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 
*25*But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. 
*26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. *
* 27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. *
* 28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. *
* 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. *
* 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. *
* 31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? *
* 32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? *
* 33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. *
*34*Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 
*35*Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 
*36*As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 
*37*Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 
*38*For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,  *39*Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


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## Guitarhero (Feb 17, 2011)

This is not talking about coming into the family of G-d.  We do that as infants raised by a family who promises to teach you about Him (baptism, the removal of original sin).  You can be in the Church, you can say you believe HIm whatnot...but again, if you were a Bernie Made-off-With-Errbody's-Money...I just wouldn't wanna face G-d like that until I sincerely repented.  There is no grandfathering clause into heaven...it's by living righteously.  We hope, we believe the promises...but then we are given the rules to live by.  Faith + works...and you hope until the end because my hand will not turn G-d's hand since He controls it all. Confidence in final salvation comes through living righteously.


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## Crown (Feb 17, 2011)

(Sorry, I can't read the other posts now)

No Salvation, No Holy Spirit
No Holy Spirit, No Root
No Root, No Real Fruits
No Real Fruits, No Seal
No Seal, No Salvation

Eph. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were *marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit*, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

 Mat 13: 3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: 

 “*A farmer went out to sow his seed*. 

 18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have *no root*, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 

 23 B*ut the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown*.”

 Act. 2 : 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. *And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved*.

Salvation is a GIFT.
How do you honor this gift is another thing.


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## Renovating (Feb 17, 2011)

...................................................................


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## Rainbow Dash (Feb 17, 2011)

Renovating said:


> Since salvation is a gift, does that mean that God creates some people knowing HE will not give them the gift of salvation?
> 
> Can you please explain the 23rd verse that you have bolded? We don't choose what we understand or don't understand in this life, so I am a little confused about why our understanding makes us "good ground or rocky ground"? Thanks.


 

I know this was not directed at me but I will attempt to help.

To answer the first question. The gift of salvation is available to all but He already knows who will receive it and who wont because He is God. 

The second question: If you receive the word and allow it to take root in your life by your relationship with Christ and spending time in the Word. Once you begin to live the word and allow the word of God to take root in your life, you will be good soil and bring increase. Your increase will be your life being a blessing to others, you becoming Christlike, and bringing Glory to God.

Hope that helps.


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## Renovating (Feb 17, 2011)

Health&hair28 said:


> I know this was not directed at me but I will attempt to help.
> 
> To answer the first question. The gift of salvation is available to all but He already knows who will receive it and who wont because He is God.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you. Your answer to the first question was very clear and I appreciate that.


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## Guitarhero (Feb 17, 2011)

Just a thought...it's evident that there are diff. ways to come to Christ.  Ours is through the family as infants or just entering the Church at a later date in life via baptism and confirmation.  While you're there, you might as well live a righteous life.  Some fall away from the teachings but they are still in the family of G-d.  Others abide by Him daily.  In the end, those who walked closely beside Him have a more secure feeling than those who didn't.  We don't do altar calls and whatnot...G-d is taught through your parents and godparents.  Those make a promise to renounce Satan and evil works.  Of course, folks fail at times, but it's if you get back up on the road.  

So, if I talk differently than you, this is why...perspective on how you enter His family.  It's diff. but essentially the same...


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## makeupgirl (Feb 17, 2011)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> *This is not talking about coming into the family of G-d. *We do that as infants raised by a family who promises to teach you about Him (baptism, the removal of original sin). You can be in the Church, you can say you believe HIm whatnot...but again, if you were a Bernie Made-off-With-Errbody's-Money...I just wouldn't wanna face G-d like that until I sincerely repented. There is no grandfathering clause into heaven...it's by living righteously. We hope, we believe the promises...but then we are given the rules to live by. Faith + works...and you hope until the end because my hand will not turn G-d's hand since He controls it all. Confidence in final salvation comes through living righteously.


 
Upon receiving Christ you are coming into the family of God.  Joint heirs with Christ, sons of God, the body of Christ, the bride of Christ.  

I grew up in the church, doesn't mean I was the church.  I didn't know Christ.  I thought I knew him but I didn't.  Didn't know about salvation being a free gift.  Didn't even know that Jesus was God or why he had to die.  

Salvation is a free gift. Jesus already paid the debt for us on the cross 2000 years ago.  He's the only way to Heaven.  Once you have receive the gift of salvation through Jesus Christ, you receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, you receive everlasting life, your name is written in the lambs book of life, you are saved from the great tribulation aka the wrath of God, you are saved from eternal damnation/condemnation.  Becoming apart of the body of Christ was the best thing that ever happen to me.  I entered adulthood as a born again believer.  I have unspeakable joy, even in the midst of trials, storms, and persecutions.  

Crown and Health&hair28, also explained it beautifully about the gift of salvation and happens after receiving Christ. 

We must grow.  There is going to be a change when you receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  Pray for your spiritual growth.  How do we do that?  We pray, we study the bible, we worship the Lord, we share the gospel with others, we fellowship.  Romans 10:17 says "Faith cometh by hearing, hearing by the word of God"  1 Thes 5:17 tells us to "pray without ceasing"  We are also not to quench and grieve the Holy Spirit but this doesn't mean that we lose him or our salvation because we have sinned as a Christian.  

We still have the sinful nature from birth because of Adam's sin.  The only difference is that our sins upon confession has been nailed to the cross and we're clean again as white as snow.  So if we confessed that we are a sinner and repent of our sins upon receiving salvation through Christ, God remembers those sins no more and he remembers our current sins no more after we have sinned as believers.  The body is neutral, the flesh is weak, but the spirit is always willing.  As we continue to feed the spirit, the more that root will grow.


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## Poohbear (Feb 17, 2011)

makeupgirl said:


> This is from BBN How to get to Heaven
> 
> Which shares how can a non-believer can get to heaven...which is only through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior according to John 14:6
> 
> ...


What you posted was Romans Road of Salvation that a man also put together.

The statements I *bolded* in your quote above are simply not true based on the scriptures.

You posted Revelations 21:8 which mentions more than just the unbelieving who will have their part in the lake of fire and brimstone. The verse mentions whoremongers, murderers, liars, and more!

"Good works" does not necessarily mean "Not Sinning". Good works are things like going to church, feeding the hungry, visiting the sick, evangelizing, tithing/giving, etc. These are the things that will not save us from being eternally separated from God.  

Believing in Christ and living a holy life by not sinning is what shows our faith. The scriptures clearly state these things and speaks strongly against willful sin. How are you exercising your faith by saying "I believe in Jesus but I'm a liar"? or "I believe in Jesus but I'm a whoremonger"? That simply cannot show you are saved or even a faithful believer. I would think the person would have to repent from those sins if he or she wants salvation in the end when Christ returns for those who are without spot nor blemish (Ephesians 5:27).

God's grace and forgiveness comes into play when we commit a sin unknowingly and if we repent (that means stop completely) of a willful sin (knowingly) that we committed. We can't continue to do the same sins that we know are wrong and expect God to forgive us over and over (Romans 6:1-4).


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## makeupgirl (Feb 17, 2011)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> Just a thought...it's evident that there are diff. ways to come to Christ. Ours is through the family as infants or just entering the Church at a later date in life via baptism and confirmation. While you're there, you might as well live a righteous life. Some fall away from the teachings but they are still in the family of G-d. Others abide by Him daily. In the end, those who walked closely beside Him have a more secure feeling than those who didn't. We don't do altar calls and whatnot...G-d is taught through your parents and godparents. Those make a promise to renounce Satan and evil works. Of course, folks fail at times, but it's if you get back up on the road.
> 
> *So, if I talk differently than you, this is why...perspective on how you enter His family. It's diff.* but essentially the same...


 
Ok this explains a lot now.  Thanks for explaining.  We still sisters in Christ.


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## Poohbear (Feb 17, 2011)

makeupgirl

It's not about believing something else, it's about believing what is right and what aligns with the Holy Bible.

Yes the grace of God saves us through faith, but faith requires action. We live in a sinful world that we all must overcome. We cannot continue to sin like hell and expect to be saved in heaven when Jesus returns for his glorious bride.

Do you believe you can get into heaven with willful known sin in your life?

If God forgives believers for sins over and over no matter how many times they can do it, doesn't that mean everyone is going to heaven?

I would think that is false teaching, false doctrine, and heresy.

Why do we ignore the scriptures on holiness and being blameless in His sight?

Why do we ignore the scriptures that speak against sin and disobedience?

Doesn't faith require believing AND obeying?

You pointed out Mark 7:13-23, a scripture that so many people ignore. Look what Jesus says in verse 23 "depart from me, *ye that work iniquity*."

"Ye that work iniquity" are people who willfully sin. Willful sin is sin that we KNOW is wrong and decide to commit it anyway.

No matter how often you go to church, read your bible, preach and teach the word, or how much you profess to believe in your heart.... if you are sinning whether is lying, stealing, cheating, etc., Jesus is going to say "depart from me" in the end.

The unholy trinity is Satan, Antichrist, and the False Prophet.





makeupgirl said:


> Poohbear and anyone else that believe what this commentary from gotojesus.com, John David Clark Sr, or any other sites that has their words written so eloquently that you start to believe the lie that Satan wants you to believe.
> 
> Check out what I wrote in this Beware of the unholy trinity
> 
> ...


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## lovely008 (Feb 17, 2011)

Aviah said:


> I'm not sure what I think about this, but it actually doesn't matter in a sense. We will all see in the end, and so long as we are living as right as possible in God, it doesn't make a difference (not to be rude, but obviously this is IMO).



At the end of the day, I'd rather be focused on The Lord, continually seeking His face and asking for His wisdom regarding these matters. If we use our minds and intellect to figure this out, we'll get nowhere.


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## Guitarhero (Feb 17, 2011)

G-d imbued man with intellect.  It's part of a spark of life that comes from G-d.  All those from Noah and onward to the apostles sought deeper meaning and understanding.  It's part of His plan. (well, even those prior to Noah)


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## Poohbear (Feb 17, 2011)

makeupgirl, you posted a very good scripture. This scripture shows that you must be in Christ in order to have no condemnation. Being in Christ means walking after the Spirit, NOT the flesh.  If we are walking after the flesh, we are NOT in Christ.

And check out verses 24-25:

*24*For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 
*25*But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. 

These 2 verses clearly say that being saved is by hope, something that is NOT seen. We patiently wait for it. Jesus is our salvation. It looks like Jesus will reward salvation to those who have been faithful til the end.

When Jesus died on the cross, he did that to take the punishment of our sins. That punishment was death. If Jesus didn't die on the cross, we would be punished with death for our sins. Look how God destroyed so many people in the Old Testament for evil, sinning, and wickedness. Jesus died for us to show us how much he loved us. Jesus also dwelled among us to show us how we should live as well. Knowing these things should change our hearts, minds, and souls to being dead to sin and alive in Christ.



makeupgirl said:


> *Romans 8*
> 
> *1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. *
> * 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. *
> ...


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## makeupgirl (Feb 17, 2011)

Poohbear said:


> What you posted was Romans Road of Salvation that a man also put together.
> 
> The statements I *bolded* in your quote above are simply not true based on the scriptures.
> 
> ...


 
We're born spiritually separated from God at our birth because of Adam's sin.  Jesus came to earth to die for us which paid the ransom and reconciled us back to God.  All have sinned and come short of the glory of God according to Romans 3:23.  In Romans 3:10, it also said, there is none righteous, no not one.  Romans 6:23 explains "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus.  So the payment of our sins is death but the forgiveness of sin is eternal life through Christ.  

So, there is power in the blood of Christ to free us from the burden of sin.  He died for past, present, and future sins of the whole world.  He knows we're still going to sin that's why 1 John 1:9 is in the bible.  

He also knew that good works couldn't save us. If anyone could be saved based on good works, then we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.  I grew up in my childhood and teenage years thinking I was definitely going to heaven, because I didn't steal except little stuff like candy and belt when I was little, I hadn't kill humans or animals, I passed all my grades, I came to church.  I was still lost.  Just as lost as I was in April 1981 when I was born, spiritually dead and separated from God.  

I'm sorry that I may be offending some here, that is not my intent but God's word is God's word and he tells us there is one way to get to heaven and that is through Jesus Christ.  Plus, I rather tick off man, then God, IMO.  

So if anyone else knows another way to get to heaven, please elaborate.


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## Guitarhero (Feb 17, 2011)

Poohbear said:


> Believing in Christ and living a holy life by not sinning is what shows our faith. The scriptures clearly state these things and speaks strongly against willful sin. How are you exercising your faith by saying "I believe in Jesus but I'm a liar"? or "I believe in Jesus but I'm a whoremonger"? That simply cannot show you are saved or even a faithful believer. I would think the person would have to repent from those sins if he or she wants salvation in the end when Christ returns for those who are without spot nor blemish (Ephesians 5:27).
> 
> God's grace and forgiveness comes into play when we commit a sin unknowingly and* if we repent (that means stop completely) of a willful sin (knowingly) that we committed. We can't continue to do the same sins that we know are wrong and expect God to forgive us over and over *(Romans 6:1-4).



Yes, we can.  70 x 7?  His road to the crucifixion where he fell various times and got back up?  That also is very significant to keep on trying and doing.  Obviously, without the H-ly Spirit, who would confess and repent? If we're talking about never sinning the same again...there's not ONE PERSON in this entire world who will go to heaven.  The difference is living a life abiding totally in sin and not giving a damn...  Forgiveness?  Why forgive when He knows we'll all just muck it up the same way until we are completely free?


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## Poohbear (Feb 17, 2011)

makeupgirl said:


> Lets' use something like this as an example:
> 
> Example # 1
> 
> ...



makeupgirl

Sorry to pick on you by quoting almost all your posts.  I promise I am not attacking you at all...


How about this Example:

"I accepted Christ as my savior, became a new creature based on his word, as well as receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  Then I say, ok I'm in Christ, I have eternal life.  I'm done and then go about my business acting like I was when I didn't have Christ in me.  So, I live 40 years, went to church to fellowship and worship, went to bible study, prayed, witnessed to others, etc.  But, I was not good. I was sinful because I kill someone, I stole property, used the Lord's name in vain, cursed and used profane words, broke the law several times, etc.  After I commit a sin, I would pray and ask for forgiveness, but then go right back doing the same ol' sin. But through it all, I still was believing in Jesus in my mind and heart as the Son of God and Savior. I did good works occasionally, but I just didn't obey His commands. I just couldn't stop sinning no matter how much I believed. Well, then I die, stand before the Lord and......."

WHAT?

Will this person receive eternal life or eternal damnation based on your view of salvation?


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## Poohbear (Feb 17, 2011)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> Yes, we can.  70 x 7?  His road to the crucifixion where he fell various times and got back up?  That also is very significant to keep on trying and doing.  Obviously, without the H-ly Spirit, who would confess and repent? I*f we're talking about never sinning the same again...there's not ONE PERSON in this entire world who will go to heaven.  *The difference is living a life abiding totally in sin and not giving a damn...  Forgiveness?  Why forgive when He knows we'll all just muck it up the same way until we are completely free?



So with saying that, doesn't this mean that everyone is going to heaven no matter what they do?  I can't see around this principle of God forgiving us over and over without all of us going to heaven. The bible does not simply say "you go to hell if you do not believe. That's it." The bible mentions so many other things. How can we just ignore all of what the bible says about sin and just latch on to what we want to just to make us feel comfortable in our sins?


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## Guitarhero (Feb 17, 2011)

I think the problem is when we simplify G-d when He's already given us a basis for comprehending His way.  We make it about there being a one-button quick'n easy solution when there truly is none.  This is why I so often mention the various levels of meaning in the scripture.  It's all valid and it's all tied together.  And it often appears to be contradictory.


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## Poohbear (Feb 17, 2011)

makeupgirl said:


> We're born spiritually separated from God at our birth because of Adam's sin.  Jesus came to earth to die for us which paid the ransom and reconciled us back to God.  All have sinned and come short of the glory of God according to Romans 3:23.  In Romans 3:10, it also said, there is none righteous, no not one.  Romans 6:23 explains "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus.  So the payment of our sins is death but the forgiveness of sin is eternal life through Christ.
> 
> So, there is power in the blood of Christ to free us from the burden of sin.  He died for past, present, and future sins of the whole world.  He knows we're still going to sin that's why 1 John 1:9 is in the bible.
> 
> ...


With my posts, I'm not saying there's another way to get to heaven.  Jesus is the only way. I would rather tick off man than God as well. I feel like committing sin is ticking off God. Why would I want to continue to tick off God and still expect to get into heaven? Doesn't believing require faithful action?

For instance, can someone say "I believe that I should wait to have sex until I'm married" but then that person decides to have sex before marriage. Does that really show that he or she believes in waiting to have sex until marriage? No.


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## makeupgirl (Feb 17, 2011)

Poohbear said:


> @makeupgirl
> 
> It's not about believing something else, it's about believing what is right and what aligns with the Holy Bible.
> 
> ...


 
I never said that it was about believing in something else.  The site gotoJesus.com and the writer of the article words is not what God’s word say about salvation.  The bible is right, because it’s infallible.   Jesus said point blank that we must be born again to enter into the kingdom of God and that he is the only way to the Father. (John 3:5-6…John 14:6)  

Everyone is a sinner.  We’re born that way.  Once you become saved, you have 2 natures inside you which is contrary to each other (Gal 5:17)  We’re still going to sin.  Even if you were to deny lying about not sinning, you’re sinning.  The letter in 1 John is for us who are already in Christ.  

Here is 1 John 1: 5-10 

 *5* This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 

*6* If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth.

 *7* But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[b] sin. 

 *8* If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

 *9* If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

 *10* If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us. 

Basically these verse is saying, that if  you have sinned at that moment, you’re out of fellowship with God, not sonship or have terminated the relationship but you’re just out of his will at that moment and that we must confess and make things right with him.  If you say, “yo I don’t sin” , then you have just lie like a rug and we make him a liar because it contradicts why he had to die for us.  

Now I’m going to answer your questions

Why do we ignore the scriptures on holiness and being blameless in His sight?

Why do we ignore the scriptures that speak against sin and disobedience?

These 2 go hand in hand for me, however, I'm not righteous, perfect, nor do I have the best memory in the world and when I'm out of the will of God and that old nature takes over, I don't understand scriptures at that moment.  

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know _them,_ because they are spiritually discerned. (this verse also applies to non-believers as well)

Doesn't faith require believing AND obeying?

I'm going to answer this one with scripture.  Faith cometh by hearing, hearing by the word of God - Romans 10:17.....
Without Faith it is impossible to please God; for he that cometh to god must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. - Heb 11:6

As far as Matt 7:21-13....no those verses are for those who are like the pharasees and scribes and has song in the choir, prayed, read the bible, basically what he has said in those verses but they didn't have a relationship with him, they never ask him to save them, they relyed on works to get into heaven.


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## Poohbear (Feb 17, 2011)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> I think the problem is when we simplify G-d when He's already given us a basis for comprehending His way.  *We make it about there being a one-button quick'n easy solution when there truly is none.*  This is why I so often mention the various levels of meaning in the scripture.  It's all valid and it's all tied together.  *And it often appears to be contradictory.*


I agree with the bolded. I guess as long as we are seeking and inquiring about the truth, is that all that matters? I don't know anymore. I just really would like to know about all these things instead of just giving up in unbelief. But I see why there are so many views from different scriptures. I like to ask questions and give scenarios in order to understand all point of views to grasp an understanding and come to a conclusion for myself.




Volver_Alma_Gitana , Why do you replace the "o" in God with a "-"?


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## Guitarhero (Feb 17, 2011)

Poohbear said:


> I agree with the bolded. I guess as long as we are seeking and inquiring about the truth, is that all that matters? I don't know anymore. I just really would like to know about all these things instead of just giving up in unbelief. But I see why there are so many views from different scriptures. I like to ask questions and give scenarios in order to understand all point of views to grasp an understanding and come to a conclusion for myself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'll start putting it in ...maybe...throwback from respecting the name...eh.It
 by Jewish habit.


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## makeupgirl (Feb 17, 2011)

Poohbear said:


> @makeupgirl
> 
> Sorry to pick on you by quoting almost all your posts.  I promise I am not attacking you at all...
> 
> ...


 
Not at all sugar plum , we're allow to fellowship and help each other out.  Love ya!!!!!  

I was working at the same time while I was typing that example. lol.. (I seriously got to stop doing that)  The example was just one I got from bible study of a question that I think I asked a while ago, I just used it in 1st person pov.  They will receive eternal life because they did trusted Jesus as their Lord and Savior, even though, they didn't study the bible, pray.....They are still a believer and they have a relationship/sonship with him but they were never in fellowship with God.  (it's a confussing example...I'm so sorry.)  




Poohbear said:


> With my posts, I'm not saying there's another way to get to heaven. Jesus is the only way. I would rather tick off man than God as well. I feel like committing sin is ticking off God. Why would I want to continue to tick off God and still expect to get into heaven? Doesn't believing require faithful action?
> 
> For instance, can someone say "I believe that I should wait to have sex until I'm married" but then that person decides to have sex before marriage. Does that really show that he or she believes in waiting to have sex until marriage? No.


 
I understand what you're saying.  I had the same questions when I first got saved.  Committing a sin is ticking off God, it knocks us out of fellowship which is why upon recognizing that we have sinned, we got to make things right immediately by confessing of that is and not doing it again.  Our relationship with God is fine after salvation, that will always be cool.  We mess up however, then we are out of fellowship with him until we admit our sins.


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## Poohbear (Feb 17, 2011)

makeupgirl said:


> I never said that it was about believing in something else.  The site gotoJesus.com and the writer of the article words is not what God’s word say about salvation.  The bible is right, because it’s infallible.   Jesus said point blank that we must be born again to enter into the kingdom of God and that he is the only way to the Father. (John 3:5-6…John 14:6)
> 
> Everyone is a sinner.  We’re born that way.  Once you become saved, you have 2 natures inside you which is contrary to each other (Gal 5:17)  We’re still going to sin.  Even if you were to deny lying about not sinning, you’re sinning.  The letter in 1 John is for us who are already in Christ.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your response. 1 Corinthians 2:14 is an interesting verse that supports what you said about the sin nature taking over and not understanding scriptures at that moment since the natural man cannot receive things of the Spirit of God. However, I think this verse is for people who are not new creatures in Christ. They are still living in sin.

Also, shouldn't our old nature go away once we become a new creature in Christ? 

2 Corinthians 5:17 says "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Romans 8:13 say "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

I know Paul speaks of sin dwelled in him and when he did good, evil was present with him. But at the end of that passage in Romans 7, Paul speaks of Jesus delivering him from this body of death.


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## Crown (Feb 17, 2011)

Renovating said:


> Thank you. Your answer to the first question was very clear and I appreciate that.
> 
> My concern is I believe Jesus died for my sins. However, the more I study the word, there are more things I don't understand; so I was basically saying that believing is a choice, but *I cannot choose what I understand*. I would like to understand it all, being that my soul's eternal dwelling place is cost/reward for understanding.
> 
> ** I just want to add that I read a NIV study bible, so it is not the translation that makes things unclear.



Sorry I am late (I hope to come back to read all the posts), Health&hair28 answered your precedent post.

So I will concentrate on this one.

But you can choose to pray for understanding. A few years ago, I understood very little, but I am growing. It is a process. I still don’t understand all, and need to ask Him…
Ac. 8 : 29 *The Spirit* told Philip, “*Go to that chariot and stay near it*.” 30 Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “*Do you understand what you are reading?*” Philip asked. 
 31 “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. 

Dan. 9 : 20 *While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the LORD my God for his holy hill*— 21 *while I was still in prayer*, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice. 22 He instructed me and said to me, “*Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding*. 23 As soon as you began to pray, a word went out, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed.

First, like this :
Ps. 51 : 10 Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me.

Ps. 139 : 23 Search me, God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts. 
24 See if there is any offensive way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

Then, like that :
James 1 : 3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. 4 *Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything*. 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should *ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you*. 6 But *when you ask, you must believe* and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do.

Lu. 11 : 9 “So I say to you: *Ask and it will be given to you*; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. 
   11 “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, *how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him*!” 

Ask Him, and keep praying.
Ac. 10 : 34 Then Peter began to speak: “*I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism* 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.

Deut. 10 : 16 Circumcise your hearts, therefore, and do not be stiff-necked any longer. 17 *For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality* and accepts no bribes. 18 He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the foreigner residing among you, giving them food and clothing. 19 And you are to love those who are foreigners, for you yourselves were foreigners in Egypt. 20 Fear the LORD your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name. 21 He is the one you praise; he is your God, who performed for you those great and awesome wonders you saw with your own eyes.


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## makeupgirl (Feb 17, 2011)

Poohbear said:


> Thanks for your response. 1 Corinthians 2:14 is an interesting verse that supports what you said about the sin nature taking over and not understanding scriptures at that moment since the natural man cannot receive things of the Spirit of God. However, I think this verse is for people who are not new creatures in Christ. They are still living in sin.
> 
> *Also, shouldn't our old nature go away once we become a new creature in Christ? *
> 
> ...


 
I'll need to get with my Pastor on this and do some research.  This has always puzzled me.  I think that's why Romans 8:23 says Not only _that,_ but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

We are delivered from sin upon salvation but we're still in a corruptable body.  When we get to heaven, we're going to get a glorified body. (I'm looking forward to that because I'm tired of sticking myself each day to check my sugars and giving myself insulin... I'm a diabetic)

Ok, ladies....my lunch break went by super fast and I have to spend the next 3 1/2 hrs until 8 to call banks and to see if I can at least get more work done.  I'll catch yall tomorrow, Lord willing.  

Love yall :blowkiss:


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## Honi (Feb 17, 2011)

Joshua 2:1-16 - When you read the story of Rahab (the harlot) she helped out the spies by hiding them upstairs. When the people of Jericho came looking for them she lied and said they left. 

She did that because she BELIEVED that God had parted the Red Sea many years ago. Was she still a prostitute years ago when she believed it?  YES.

Many years later, because of her BELIEF she did something great. She rescued the spies and later was not a prostitute anymore. The manifestation came. She later became the wife of Salmon (Tribal leader of Judah), mother of Boaz. This woman (a former prostitute) is one of the four women named in Matthews genealogy of Jesus. 

Some fruits take time.  Some lifestyles take time. Your future can be changed with right believing. Forget about the past. Your past doesn’t determine your future. Your believing does.


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## Guitarhero (Feb 20, 2011)

makeupgirl said:


> *Upon receiving Christ you are coming into the family of God.*  Joint heirs with Christ, sons of God, the body of Christ, the bride of Christ.
> 
> I grew up in the church, doesn't mean I was the church.  I didn't know Christ.  I thought I knew him but I didn't.  Didn't know about salvation being a free gift.  Didn't even know that Jesus was God or why he had to die.
> .



We receive Christ at baptism, as infants, normally.  It's your family who promises to teach you the walk with Christ as they renounce Satan.  We grow up (I'm a convert...so I'm talking about cradle catholics and orthodox) in the church and hopefully, your family will be faithful about that commitment.  At confirmation in your early teens, you take the reins of your faith-walk yourself because you have arrived at the age of accountability.  I'm sure there are many who arrive at a point in which they didn't take much very seriously and then find the true meaning of their lives...and they are still in the CHurch, still the body of Christ, and still of the family born into it a baptism.  

The diff. between prots and "catholics" is that the most of the former wait until the child makes the personal commitment himself then gets baptised during that time.  It's all the same thing with confirmation and whatnot...you will walk the road and be responsible directly to God.  Our chronology differs because ours models Judaism, the precedent.  It's the same thing, essentially.



> Originally Posted by *Volver_Alma_Gitana*
> 
> 
> _*This is not talking about coming into the family of G-d. .....*._


_

To the argument and belief that "being saved" doesn't mean just coming into G-d's family...but enduring til the end in faith and righteous living...works hand-in-hand with faith - that final salvation has not yet occurred when one is still alive in the flesh.
_


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## makeupgirl (Feb 21, 2011)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> We receive Christ at baptism, as infants, normally. It's your family who promises to teach you the walk with Christ as they renounce Satan. We grow up (I'm a convert...so I'm talking about cradle catholics and orthodox) in the church and hopefully, your family will be faithful about that commitment. At confirmation in your early teens, you take the reins of your faith-walk yourself because you have arrived at the age of accountability. I'm sure there are many who arrive at a point in which they didn't take much very seriously and then find the true meaning of their lives...and they are still in the CHurch, still the body of Christ, and still of the family born into it a baptism.
> 
> The diff. between prots and "catholics" is that the most of the former wait until the child makes the personal commitment himself then gets baptised during that time. It's all the same thing with confirmation and whatnot...you will walk the road and be responsible directly to God. Our chronology differs because ours models Judaism, the precedent. It's the same thing, essentially.
> 
> ...


 
I'm not catholic at all, can you explain what confirmation is? other than that, I'm also at work and I have the beginnings of a head cold (everyone is sick in my office today) so my thought process is foggy today, but here is something from gotquestions.com. They are pretty good as far as explainations about words, events from the bible. 

*Question: "How is the church the Body of Christ?"*

*Answer: *The phrase “the Body of Christ” is a common New Testament metaphor for the Church (all those who are truly saved). The Church is called “one body in Christ” in Romans 12:5, “one body” in 1 Corinthians 1:17, “the body of Christ” in 1 Corinthians 12:27 and Ephesians 4:12, and “the body” in Hebrews 13:3. The Church is clearly equated with “the body” of Christ in Ephesians 6:23 and Colossians 1:24.

When Christ entered our world, He took on a physical body “prepared” for Him (Hebrews 10:5; Philippians 2:7). Through His physical body, Jesus demonstrated the love of God clearly, tangibly, and boldly—especially through His sacrificial death on the cross (Romans 5:8). After His bodily ascension, Christ continues His work in the world through those He has redeemed—the Church now demonstrates the love of God clearly, tangibly, and boldly. In this way, the Church functions as “the Body of Christ.”

The Church may be called the Body of Christ because of these facts:

1) Members of the Body of Christ are joined to Christ in salvation (Ephesians 4:15-16).

2) Members of the Body of Christ follow Christ as their Head (Ephesians 1:22-23).

3) Members of the Body of Christ are the physical representation of Christ in this world. The Church is the organism through which Christ manifests His life to the world today. 

4) Members of the Body of Christ are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9).

5) Members of the Body of Christ possess a diversity of gifts suited to particular functions (1 Corinthians 12:4-31). “The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ” (verse 12).

6) Members of the Body of Christ share a common bond with all other Christians, regardless of background, race, or ministry. “There should be no division in the body, but . . . its parts should have equal concern for each other” (1 Corinthians 12:25).

7) Members of the Body of Christ are secure in their salvation (John 10:28-30). For a Christian to lose his salvation, God would have to perform an “amputation” on the Body of Christ!

8) Members of the Body of Christ partake of Christ’s death and resurrection (Colossians 2:12). 

9) Members of the Body of Christ share Christ’s inheritance (Romans 8:17).

10) Members of the Body of Christ receive the gift of Christ’s righteousness (Romans 5:17).

BTW if I completely answer the question wrong. Please forgive me. I'm struggling now to stay awake and focus and I think I'm feverish.


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## makeupgirl (Feb 21, 2011)

Here is something else: This is not directed at anyone but something that we all should remain aware of. 



Question: "Why are there so many different Christian interpretations? If all Christians have the same Bible, and the same Holy Spirit, should not Christians be able to agree?"



Answer: Scripture says there is “one Lord, one faith, one baptism” (Ephesians 4:5). This passage emphasizes the unity that should exist in the body of Christ as we are indwelt by “one Spirit” (verse 4). In verse 3, Paul makes an appeal to humility, meekness, patience, and love—all of which are necessary to preserve unity. According to 1 Corinthians 2:10-13, the Holy Spirit knows the mind of God (verse 11), which He reveals (verse 10) and teaches (verse 13) to those whom He indwells. This activity of the Holy Spirit is called illumination.



In a perfect world, every believer would dutifully study the Bible (2 Timothy 2:15) in prayerful dependence upon the Holy Spirit’s illumination. As can be clearly seen, this is not a perfect world. Not everyone who possesses the Holy Spirit actually listens to the Holy Spirit. There are Christians who grieve Him (Ephesians 4:30). Ask any educator—even the best classroom teacher has his share of wayward students who seem to resist learning, no matter what the teacher does. So, one reason different people have different interpretations of the Bible is simply that some do not listen to the Teacher—the Holy Spirit. Following are some other reasons for the wide divergence of beliefs among those who teach the Bible.



1. Unbelief. The fact is that many who claim to be Christians have never been born again. They wear the label of “Christian,” but there has been no true change of heart. Many who do not even believe the Bible to be true presume to teach it. They claim to speak for God yet live in a state of unbelief. Most false interpretations of Scripture come from such sources.



It is impossible for an unbeliever to correctly interpret Scripture. “The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned” (1 Corinthians 2:14). An unsaved man cannot understand the truth of the Bible. He has no illumination. Further, even being a pastor or theologian does not guarantee one’s salvation.



An example of the chaos created by unbelief is found in John 12:28-29. Jesus prays to the Father, saying, “Father, glorify your name.” The Father responds with an audible voice from heaven, which everyone nearby hears. Notice, however, the difference in interpretation: “The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him.” Everyone heard the same thing—an intelligible statement from heaven—yet everyone heard what he wanted to hear.



2. Lack of training. The apostle Peter warns against those who misinterpret the Scriptures. He attributes their spurious teachings in part to the fact that they are “ignorant” (2 Peter 3:16). Timothy is told to “Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth” (2 Timothy 2:15). There is no shortcut to proper biblical interpretation; we are constrained to study.



3. Poor hermeneutics. Much error has been promoted because of a simple failure to apply good hermeneutics (the science of interpreting Scripture). Taking a verse out of its immediate context can do great damage to the intent of the verse. Ignoring the wider context of the chapter and book, or failing to understand the historical/cultural context will also lead to problems.



4. Ignorance of the whole Word of God. Apollos was a powerful and eloquent preacher, but he only knew the baptism of John. He was ignorant of Jesus and His provision of salvation, so his message was incomplete. Aquila and Priscilla took him aside and “explained to him the way of God more adequately” (Acts 18:24-28). After that, Apollos preached Jesus Christ. Some groups and individuals today have an incomplete message because they concentrate on certain passages to the exclusion of others. They fail to compare Scripture with Scripture.



5. Selfishness and pride. Sad to say, many interpretations of the Bible are based on an individual’s own personal biases and pet doctrines. Some people see an opportunity for personal advancement by promoting a “new perspective” on Scripture. (See the description of false teachers in Jude’s epistle.)



6. Failure to mature. When Christians are not maturing as they should, their handling of the Word of God is affected. “I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. You are still worldly” (1 Corinthians 3:2-3). An immature Christian is not ready for the “meat” of God’s Word. Note that the proof of the Corinthians’ carnality is a division in their church (verse 4). 



7. Undue emphasis on tradition. Some churches claim to believe the Bible, but their interpretation is always filtered through the established traditions of their church. Where tradition and the teaching of the Bible are in conflict, tradition is given precedence. This effectively negates the authority of the Word and grants supremacy to the church leadership.



On the essentials, the Bible is abundantly clear. There is nothing ambiguous about the deity of Christ, the reality of heaven and hell, and salvation by grace through faith. On some issues of less importance, however, the teaching of Scripture is less clear, and this naturally leads to different interpretations. For example, we have no direct biblical command governing the frequency of communion or the style of music to use. Honest, sincere Christians can have differing interpretations of the passages concerning these peripheral issues.



The important thing is to be dogmatic where Scripture is and to avoid being dogmatic where Scripture is not. Churches should strive to follow the model of the early church in Jerusalem: “They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer” (Acts 2:42). There was unity in the early church because they were steadfast in the apostles’ doctrine. There will be unity in the church again when we get back to the apostles’ doctrine and forego the other doctrines, fads, and gimmicks that have crept into the church.


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## makeupgirl (Feb 21, 2011)

Question: "How can salvation be not of works when faith is required? Isn't believing a work?"

Answer: Our salvation depends solely upon Jesus Christ. He is our substitute, taking sin’s penalty (2 Corinthians 5:21); He is our Savior from sin (John 1:29); He is the author and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2). The work necessary to provide salvation was fully accomplished by Jesus Himself, who lived a perfect life, took God’s judgment for sin, and rose again from the dead (Hebrews 10:12).

The Bible is quite clear that our own works do not help merit salvation. We are saved “not because of righteous things we had done” (Titus 3:5). “Not by works” (Ephesians 2:9). “There is no one righteous, not even one” (Romans 3:10). This means that offering sacrifices, keeping the commandments, going to church, being baptized, and other good deeds are incapable of saving anyone. No matter how “good” we are, we can never measure up to God’s standard of holiness (Romans 3:23; Matthew 19:17; Isaiah 64:6).

The Bible is just as clear that salvation is conditional; God does not save everyone. The one condition for salvation is faith in Jesus Christ. Nearly 200 times in the New Testament, faith (or belief) is declared to be the sole condition for salvation (John 1:12; Acts 16:31). 

One day, some people asked Jesus what they could do to please God: “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Jesus immediately points them to faith: “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent” (John 6:28-29). So, the question is about God’s requirements (plural), and Jesus’ answer is that God’s requirement (singular) is that you believe in Him.

Grace is God’s giving us something we cannot earn or deserve. According to Romans 11:6, “works” of any kind destroys grace—the idea is that a worker earns payment, while the recipient of grace simply receives it, unearned. Since salvation is all of grace, it cannot be earned. Faith, therefore, is a non-work. Faith cannot truly be considered a “work,” or else it would destroy grace. (See also Romans 4—Abraham’s salvation was dependent on faith in God, as opposed to any work he performed.)

Suppose someone anonymously sent me a check for $1,000,000. The money is mine if I want it, but I still must endorse the check. In no way can signing my name be considered earning the million dollars—the endorsement is a non-work. I can never boast about becoming a millionaire through sheer effort or my own business savvy. No, the million dollars was simply a gift, and signing my name was the only way to receive it. Similarly, exercising faith is the only way to receive the generous gift of God, and faith cannot be considered a work worthy of the gift.

True faith cannot be considered a work because true faith involves a cessation of our works in the flesh. True faith has as its object Jesus and His work on our behalf (Matthew 11:28-29; Hebrews 4:10).

To take this a step further, true faith cannot be considered a work because even faith is a gift from God, not something we produce on our own. “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8). “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him” (John 6:44). Praise the Lord for His power to save and for His grace to make salvation a reality!


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## CoilyFields (Feb 22, 2011)

Poohbear said:


> What you posted was Romans Road of Salvation that a man also put together.
> 
> The statements I *bolded* in your quote above are simply not true based on the scriptures.
> 
> ...


 
Where does it say that at? Not in Romans 6 my dear. If Jesus told Peter that WE have to forgive a person 70x7 times in one day (for ONE sin) then why would God put a limit on HIS forgivenss? The only qualifiers he put was:
1. If you *confess* your sins he is faithful and just to forgive
2. You must forgive others if you want forgivenss

And this is AFTER we have accepted Jesus redeeming blood that gaurentees our salvation. The whole NT after the ascension of Jesus was about how to LIVE OUT the privilages and respsonsiblities of that salvation. Doing those things and Asking for forgiveness for our sins is to perpetuate our right standing and relationship with God, not to RE-Secure our salvation.

The law had us under this bondage ladies...where if we did not keep the whole law then we were doomed!!!! And if you broke one law you were guilty of breaking the whole law!!! So why are we trying to go back to that old way of life when Jesus has freed us? We now have borrowed righteousness (Jesus' 2 Cor 5:21) cuz we couldnt come up with any on our own. WE WILL NEVER QUALIFY FOR SALVATION!!!! lol

God draws us by love...not fear! How bad would it be to have to live everyday every moment in fear that if I die right now without saying Im sorry to God then Im going to hell? That is NOT the love that God has presented to us...he loved us while we were YET sinners. 

As far as not being saved yet...its like a play on words. At the point of salvation/conversion/accepting Jesus we were given eternal life, the holy spirit and the power thereof.

But if you like you can think of it as a deposited check. Once you wrote your name on the line you now have the money in the bank. You may not be able to draw out that money until a set time (judgement day) but you get to live off of the interest (all the privilges of being a child of the King) that it produces and it is more than enough!


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## Poohbear (Feb 22, 2011)

CoilyFields said:


> Where does it say that at? Not in Romans 6 my dear. If Jesus told Peter that WE have to forgive a person 70x7 times in one day (for ONE sin) then why would God put a limit on HIS forgivenss? The only qualifiers he put was:
> 1. If you *confess* your sins he is faithful and just to forgive
> 2. You must forgive others if you want forgivenss



Romans 6

 1*What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?*

 2*God forbid*. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To me, "God forbid" means NO. He will not allow grace to abound if you continue in sin.


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## Guitarhero (Feb 22, 2011)

makeupgirl said:


> I'm not catholic at all, can you explain what confirmation is?



Confirmation - to confirm one's faith in Christ and become personally responsible for their actions.  You are agreeing, as a very young adult, to live according to the faith your parents taught you as one day, your children will follow that same path.  

I was merely pointing out the time-frame or chronology in which some of us come into G-d's family...some at birth, some later on, no matter the denomination.


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## CoilyFields (Feb 22, 2011)

Poohbear said:


> Romans 6
> 
> 1*What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?*
> 
> ...


 

And when I read this scripture I am understanding that Paul is saying that it is possible for us to continue to sin simply because we know grace is abounding towards us...but God forbid that we take that route!!!!

Like...SHould I keep cheating on my husband becuase I know he will never leave...God forbid I do something like that!  Its possible for me to do it but it would be a HORRIBLE thing to do, taking advantage of someones love like that!

Its an example of the responsibility(self-control) that comes with a privilage (grace).


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