# Conservative Christian VS Liberal Christian



## Poohbear (Sep 6, 2009)

How do you decided whether or not you are a Conservative Christian or a Liberal Christian?  Is it certain issues (like abortion, homosexual marriage, etc.) or does it depend on your perception on certain sins in the Bible? Whatever it is, explain why you are a Conservative Christian or a Liberal Christian. Thanks in advance.


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## Child0fGod (Sep 6, 2009)

conservative.

do not support/approve of the homosexual agenda, pro-life, don't watch horror/scary movies, no longer listen to rap & R&B-- only gospel and christian music, no cursing/blasphemy, etc... lots more, may post when the come to mind 

*conservative christian v.s liberal christian in biblical terms really means "on-fire for Christ" v.s. LUKEWARM.*

IMHO,


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## blazingthru (Sep 6, 2009)

Child0fGod said:


> conservative.
> 
> do not support/approve of the homosexual agenda, pro-life, don't watch horror/scary movies, no longer listen to rap & R&B-- only gospel and christian music, no cursing/blasphemy, etc... lots more,


 

Conservative,  I agree with all of the above. Following whats in the word.


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## Highly Favored8 (Sep 6, 2009)

Child0fGod said:


> conservative.
> 
> *do not support/approve of the homosexual agenda, pro-life, don't watch horror/scary movies, no longer listen to rap & R&B-- only gospel and christian music, no cursing/blasphemy, etc... lots more, may post when the come to mind
> *
> ...




ITA..........


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## momi (Sep 6, 2009)

There is only one type of Christian.  If you believe the bible you are a Christian, if you do not you are only one that has "read the bible and believe some parts of it to be true". 

_Sola scriptura ("by scripture alone") The Bible is the only infallible or inerrant authority for Christian faith, and that it contains all knowledge necessary for salvation and holiness_


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## Blossssom (Sep 6, 2009)

I would think  a conservative Christian would not just read the New Testament, but actually ADHERE to it.

A liberal Christian would read the New Testament, and then do the complete opposite of EVERYTHING they read...

How's that?  

Back to the MJ Forum... my true home


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## Laela (Sep 6, 2009)

It's that simple.












momi said:


> There is only one type of Christian.  If you believe the bible you are a Christian, if you do not you are only one that has "read the bible and believe some parts of it to be true".
> 
> _Sola scriptura ("by scripture alone") The Bible is the only infallible or inerrant authority for Christian faith, and that it contains all knowledge necessary for salvation and holiness_


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## Shimmie (Sep 6, 2009)

Child0fGod said:


> conservative.
> 
> do not support/approve of the homosexual agenda, pro-life, don't watch horror/scary movies, no longer listen to rap & R&B-- only gospel and christian music, no cursing/blasphemy, etc... lots more, may post when the come to mind
> 
> ...


 


blazingthru said:


> Conservative, I agree with all of the above. Following whats in the word.


 


Highly Favored8 said:


> ITA..........


 


momi said:


> There is only one type of Christian. If you believe the bible you are a Christian, if you do not you are only one that has "read the bible and believe some parts of it to be true".
> 
> _Sola scriptura ("by scripture alone") The Bible is the only infallible or inerrant authority for Christian faith, and that it contains all knowledge necessary for salvation and holiness_


 


Blossssom said:


> I would think  a conservative Christian would not just read the New Testament, but actually ADHERE to it.
> 
> A liberal Christian would read the New Testament, and then do the complete opposite of EVERYTHING they read...
> 
> ...


 


Laela said:


> It's that simple.


 
What you each shared... 

Frankly, Conservatives don't try to 'remake' God.  God is who He says He is and that settles it.  When Jesus says "Follow Me", that was Conservatives respect and set out to do.

Liberals, what to be 'God's god.  Remake Him to fit into their image and fit into their agenda.  They want God to follow 'them, instead of they following Him.'


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## Mamita (Sep 7, 2009)

defenitely conservative, but adding to what everyone has said here, i'll say you know you're conservative when the majority doesn't do what you do, when the majority doesn't like you and what you say...

unfortunately in this world, EVEN some liberals will call themselves conservatives because they say Jesus Jesus Jesus, or God God God because they're convinced what they do is written, when it's not and withouth realising it they serve a God that doesn't exist, making him say what they want. There's no comfort in the world for Christians, there's no fleshly confort in the Word. 

The world is in bad shape, but yeah mostly when the world doesn't consider you part of it, and hates you or just puts you aside, and when you can see sin in everything wordly lol, then you're real

ok i know this forum and i'll add the disclaimer that my comment is not aimed at anyone here, i do have a life outside of the forum and know some people like that lol


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## Blossssom (Sep 7, 2009)

Mamita said:


> defenitely conservative, but adding to what everyone has said here, i'll say you know you're conservative *when the majority doesn't do what you do, when the majority doesn't like you and what you sa**y*...



I can "relate" to that!


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## momi (Sep 7, 2009)

Mamita said:


> defenitely conservative, but adding to what everyone has said here, i'll say you know you're conservative when the majority doesn't do what you do, when the majority doesn't like you and what you say...
> 
> unfortunately in this world, EVEN some liberals will call themselves conservatives because they say Jesus Jesus Jesus, or God God God because they're convinced what they do is written, when it's not and withouth realising it they serve a God that doesn't exist, making him say what they want. _There's no comfort in the world for Christians, there's no fleshly confort in the Word_.
> 
> ...


 
What a mouthful...


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## momi (Sep 7, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> What you each shared...
> 
> 
> _Liberals, what to be 'God's god. Remake Him to fit into their image and fit into their agenda. They want God to follow 'them, instead of they following Him._'


 
In a nutshell Shimmie - they want to be God's god.  I am stealing that one... so if you see the quote pop up in another thread remember I am giving you your credit now.


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## Blossssom (Sep 7, 2009)

Humpf!  Let the TRUTH speak!  

Shim is right on!


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## chrstndiva (Sep 7, 2009)

I am a follower of Chirst.  Period.


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## Crown (Sep 7, 2009)

YES, I LOVE The BIBLE. And when the answer is in, I am not searching further. If you read Revelation (chapters 2 and 3), The Letters to  [FONT=&quot]the Loveless Church, the Persecuted Church, the Compromising Church, the Corrupt Church, the Dead Church, the Faithful Church, the Lukewarm Church - these letters describe the conservative and the liberal Christian.

      2: 2 “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; 3 and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary. 6 … you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 9 “I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and _I know_ the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but _are_ a synagogue of Satan. 10 …*Be faithful until death*, and I will give you the crown of life. 13 “I know your works… And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith..
      3: 8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.



      2: 4 … you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works… 20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.
    3: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.
  15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because *you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot*. I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—*and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked*— 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, _that_ the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore *be zealous and repent*.[/FONT]


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## SND411 (Sep 7, 2009)

Why is it always down to homosexuality and abortion?


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## Ramya (Sep 7, 2009)

"Christian" is sufficient.


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## Mamita (Sep 7, 2009)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> Why is it always down to homosexuality and abortion?



it's just one way like many others to "get" where the person is in their faith, since they're mostly yes no topics, if you know where they stand on those topics, you know a lot about the person

as much as hip hop, pants, short hair make up tattoos short skirts fornication or divorce anything you can think of, these two are just so widespread and "trivialised" now they're common topics... i'd put divorce with those two though


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## goldielocs (Sep 7, 2009)

Conservative checking in... I'm loving this thread.

Be blessed.


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## Poohbear (Sep 7, 2009)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> Why is it always down to homosexuality and abortion?


I think because these are the main issues when it comes to Christians and politics.  From what I have gathered from people I have met, liberal Christians are for abortion and conservative Christians are against abortion.  I also know there are Christians that are for homosexual unions or think it's ok to be homosexual when the Bible clearly speaks against it.


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## Ramya (Sep 7, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> I think because these are the main issues when it comes to Christians and politics.  From what I have gathered from people I have met, liberal Christians are for abortion and conservative Christians are against abortion.  I also know there are Christians that are for homosexual unions or think it's ok to be homosexual when the Bible clearly speaks against it.



Add fornication to that list. The bible is clear on these matters. How can one say the word of God is our instruction manual and then pick and choose what applies to his or her life. The term liberal Christian cancels itself out by definition alone.


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## Poohbear (Sep 7, 2009)

Child0fGod said:


> conservative.
> 
> do not support/approve of the homosexual agenda, pro-life, don't watch horror/scary movies, no longer listen to rap & R&B-- only gospel and christian music, no cursing/blasphemy, etc... lots more, may post when the come to mind
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing. I agree that would be a conservative Christian...

Also, your post sparked another question...

Can a Christian still consider themselves conservative if they are pro-life, against the homosexual agenda, against sin period, and they pray, read their bible, attend church...BUT they listen to rap/hip-hop/r&b music and watch movies? Or would that be a Lukewarm Christian? And if we all sin and fall short of God's glory, would everyone be considered a Lukewarm Christian?


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 7, 2009)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> Why is it always down to homosexuality and abortion?




Actually, I agree.  The OP questioned just what makes a conservative or liberal.  I'd like to know the definitions.  I don't think liberal necessarily means one agrees with homosexuality.  But I don't know because no one answered the question.  I think she was asking within the context of true believers of the faith...according to scripture.  I'm sure there are liberals versus conservatives.  For me, I'm orthodox and protestants are liberals but they are both christians who follow faithfully.  Just what actually makes one conservative and one liberal, abortion and homosexuality excluded?


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## Ramya (Sep 7, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> Thanks for sharing. I agree that would be a conservative Christian...
> 
> Also, your post sparked another question...
> 
> Can a Christian still consider themselves conservative if they are pro-life, against the homosexual agenda, against sin period, and they pray, read their bible, attend church...BUT they listen to rap/hip-hop/r&b music and watch movies? Or would that be a Lukewarm Christian? And if we all sin and fall short of God's glory, would everyone be considered a Lukewarm Christian?



See now it's a matter of convictions v command. There are things God commands us to do and there are things that individually via prompting of the Holy Spirit we are advised not to do. I can't listen to a lot of secular music but it's due to conviction, not law.


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## SND411 (Sep 7, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> I think because these are the main issues when it comes to Christians and politics.  From what I have gathered from people I have met, liberal Christians are for abortion and conservative Christians are against abortion.  I also know there are Christians that are for homosexual unions or think it's ok to be homosexual when the Bible clearly speaks against it.



I think Christians should not concentrate their WHOLE faith on abortion and homosexuality. It makes me think that many people believe as along as you disagree with these things, you are a "true" believer. What about prostitution, sexual slavery, physical slavery, the homeless, widow, orphan, poor immigrants, the depressed/mentally ill? Why dont we talk about those things as much?

And about abortion: Let's say you are against abortion...what about serving mothers who decided to have their child, but is unable to raise them? Shouldn't we encourage helping these women instead of just saying "no" to abortion?


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## SND411 (Sep 7, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Actually, I agree.  The OP questioned just what makes a conservative or liberal.  I'd like to know the definitions.  I don't think liberal necessarily means one agrees with homosexuality.  But I don't know because no one answered the question.  I think she was asking within the context of true believers of the faith...according to scripture.  I'm sure there are liberals versus conservatives.  For me, I'm orthodox and protestants are liberals but they are both christians who follow faithfully.  Just what actually makes one conservative and one liberal, abortion and homosexuality excluded?



Some people claim "liberal" Christians are less likely to believe in the Resurrection of Christ.


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## discobiscuits (Sep 7, 2009)

i'm not a conservative or liberal christian, i'm just a christian. my political views lean to the conservative end of the spectrum. for me the two are separate. my religious beliefs do not change, my political choices do.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 7, 2009)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> I think Christians should not concentrate their WHOLE faith on abortion and homosexuality. It makes me think that many people believe as along as you disagree with these things, you are a "true" believer. What about prostitution, sexual slavery, physical slavery, the homeless, widow, orphan, poor immigrants, the depressed/mentally ill? Why dont we talk about those things as much?
> 
> And about abortion: Let's say you are against abortion...what about serving mothers who decided to have their child, but is unable to raise them? Shouldn't we encourage helping these women instead of just saying "no" to abortion?



Maybe one should make a list of what is considered liberal and conservative?  I thought it had more to do with how one is living out the faith, not which "sins" one is allowing to into the faith to be practiced freely.


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## momi (Sep 7, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> Thanks for sharing. I agree that would be a conservative Christian...
> 
> Also, your post sparked another question...
> 
> Can a Christian still consider themselves conservative if they are pro-life, against the homosexual agenda, against sin period, and they pray, read their bible, attend church...BUT they listen to rap/hip-hop/r&b music and watch movies? Or would that be a Lukewarm Christian? And if we all sin and fall short of God's glory, would everyone be considered a Lukewarm Christian?


 

I agree with Ramya on this one... certain issues are ones of santification.

My Christian walk today is a far cry from where it was 5 years ago... shoot 5 months ago because of the santifying power of the Holy Spirit.


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## music-bnatural-smile (Sep 7, 2009)

Child0fGod said:


> conservative.
> 
> do not support/approve of the homosexual agenda, pro-life, don't watch horror/scary movies, no longer listen to rap & R&B-- only gospel and christian music, no cursing/blasphemy, etc... lots more, may post when the come to mind
> 
> ...





Respectfully, I hate that mindset, we can't decide for people who is lukewarm or who isn't just because they go through different motions...

btw your hair is gorgeous, and I saw ur a newbie, I am too don't take that as an attack or anything, thats just how I communicate


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## music-bnatural-smile (Sep 7, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Maybe one should make a list of what is considered liberal and conservative?  I thought it had more to do with how one is living out the faith, not which "sins" one is allowing to into the faith to be practiced freely.



right...

i think the lib/con thing should just be based on political beliefs honestly...

i've been taking Christian theology class and after that I am sooooo tired of talking about which type of Christian is better... I just want us all to love Jesus, and leave each other alone about how we choose to do it.


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## Crackers Phinn (Sep 7, 2009)

There is a preacher in Arizona who wants G-d to kill Barrack Obama.

He is an ordained minister.

He does not believe in abortion or homosexuality.

He professes Christ as his Lord and Saviour.

What type of Christian is he? 

~~~~~~~~~~~
Would the answer to this question be different if you insert Osama Bin Ladin  instead of the POTUS?


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## Ladybelle (Sep 7, 2009)

I'm a christian and I'm also a conservative.


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## music-bnatural-smile (Sep 7, 2009)

Crackers Phinn said:


> There is a preacher in Arizona who wants G-d to kill Barrack Obama.
> 
> He is an ordained minister.
> 
> ...




dang boo that was deep... I wonder about these people too... I want a happy world of tolerance soooo bad 

btw i see your baby is in the oven browning nicely


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## Blossssom (Sep 7, 2009)

asuperwoman said:


> I'm a christian and I'm also a conservative.


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## Blossssom (Sep 7, 2009)

Crackers Phinn said:


> There is a preacher in Arizona who wants G-d to kill Barrack Obama.
> 
> He is an ordained minister.
> 
> ...



He ain't one!

BTW, does the New Testament talk about abortion and homosexuality?

Just curious?  I don't recall it!


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## aribell (Sep 7, 2009)

chrstndiva said:


> I am a follower of Chirst. Period.


 
Yeah, either you are obedient to Christ or you aren't.  That's all that's important.



GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> For me, *I'm orthodox and protestants are liberals* but they are both christians who follow faithfully. Just what actually makes one conservative and one liberal, abortion and homosexuality excluded?


 
Interesting point.  I think that both politically and theologically the "liberal/conservative" labels are the product of largely Western democratic society and 20th centry _American_ evangelical theology that can't at all encompass the entirely of the Christian tradition or ways that Christians have understood their faith in relationship to the government since the NT church.

For example, Augustine, like many other early church fathers, believed that the creation story in Genesis was likely allegory and not literal.  Does that make them "liberal" Christians, even though many of our basic church doctrine and the creeds were formulated by them?


Also, no one's Christianity should be judged by whether they believe that abortion should be illegal or not, or whether it would be permissible for there to be civil unions for gay people or whatever, because those questions have to do with how the _government _chooses to run things (i.e., Caesar's kingdom), not the things of God.  A political libertarian, Christian or not, would tell you that abortion should be legal not because they think abortion's ok, but because they believe the government should stay out of things.  It's a political question.  The whole "liberal/conservative" thing is a distraction, imo.


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## Sharpened (Sep 7, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> Also, no one's Christianity should be judged by whether they believe that abortion should be illegal or not, or whether it would be permissible for there to be civil unions for gay people or whatever, because those questions have to do with how the _government _chooses to run things (i.e., Caesar's kingdom), not the things of God.



Are we to accept the world's system within our midst? Sometimes discrimination must be practiced, or what would be the point of setting ourselves apart?



> A political libertarian, Christian or not, would tell you that abortion should be legal not because they think abortion's ok, but because they believe the government should stay out of things.  It's a political question.  The whole "liberal/conservative" thing is a distraction, imo.



A libertarian follower would say it should be neither legal nor illegal, that each person should come to the realization that we cannot break His Laws without breaking us in return. It does not mean we should accept it. I do agree that labels can be a distraction.


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## Shimmie (Sep 7, 2009)

momi said:


> In a nutshell Shimmie - they want to be God's god. I am stealing that one... so if you see the quote pop up in another thread remember I am giving you your credit now.


  Totally Yours, "First Lady"  You own it.  :Rose:


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## mswoman (Sep 7, 2009)

I'm a conservative christian but I am also compassionate. Meaning that the Bible says that we can not be so "holy" that we are no earthly good. 

When people do wrong you should not turn your back on them: i.e. sick and no health insurance (blame them an don't help). 

Also I believe that MANY Christians are lost because they do not know what the Bible says and try to confuse others in their confusion. With any problem the Bible has the answer point blank. Hair, clothes, marriage, and Obama are in the Bible but we have to read the Bible ourselves and stop expecting those who don't know the word to tell us what to do! The problem is like someone mentioned earlier some liberal Christians feel like God is okay with everything we do because he loves us and does not punish us.

However, our jobs as Christians is to share and live the undefiled word of God which causes many people to hate us, but in the end WE are responsible for what we tell others and everyone will be accountable for what they heard and did not practice. Hell is real and I don't want anyone to go there, but many people know they are going and profess it with their mouths. Thus the expression going to hell in a handbasket.


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## Shimmie (Sep 7, 2009)

Blossssom said:


> Humpf! Let the TRUTH speak!
> 
> Shim is right on!


 
Hey Lady LHCF President I still voted you into office.  :Rose:

God is right on, He's the Master of Conservative...


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## aribell (Sep 7, 2009)

Nymphe said:


> Are we to accept the world's system within our midst? Sometimes discrimination must be practiced, or what would be the point of setting ourselves apart?
> 
> 
> 
> A libertarian follower would say it should be neither legal nor illegal, that each person should come to the realization that we cannot break His Laws without breaking us in return. It does not mean we should accept it. I do agree that labels can be a distraction.


 

Well, I understand what you're saying, but I still think that those are political differences.  Do we have to accept the world's system?  Idk, Paul accepted it.  He told slaves to be obedient to their masters.  Jesus accepted it, in that He didn't force the equality of women in society even though He acted differently.  And there are Mennonite traditions that are completely non-violent, so military service, even just wars, and political participation are completely out of the question.  But their doctrine is still orthodox and they live lives for Christ.

To understand the falleness of the world's system doesn't dictate the way that we are to choose to interact with it.  I think it's okay for Christians to disagree about how to deal with these issues, as Christians have found different ways of approaching them since the beginning.  Having a different _political_ opinion shouldn't divide us.


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## Shimmie (Sep 7, 2009)

Crown said:


> YES, I LOVE The BIBLE. And when the answer is in, I am not searching further. If you read Revelation (chapters 2 and 3), The Letters to [FONT=&quot]the Loveless Church, the Persecuted Church, the Compromising Church, the Corrupt Church, the Dead Church, the Faithful Church, the Lukewarm Church - these letters describe the conservative and the liberal Christian.
> 
> 2: 2 “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; 3 and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary. 6 … you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 9 “I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and _I know_ the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but _are_ a synagogue of Satan. 10 …*Be faithful until death*, and I will give you the crown of life. 13 “I know your works… And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith..
> 3: 8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
> ...


 
Awesome Word which seals it!


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## music-bnatural-smile (Sep 7, 2009)

Nymphe said:


> *Are we to accept the world's system within our midst? Sometimes discrimination must be practiced, or what would be the point of setting ourselves apart?*
> 
> 
> 
> A libertarian follower would say it should be neither legal nor illegal, that each person should come to the realization that we cannot break His Laws without breaking us in return. It does not mean we should accept it. I do agree that labels can be a distraction.




i didn't read all of the thread, but just about the bolded...
its not accepting the world's system. its being tolerant of those around you. the gay married couple, the muslim, the rapist... all of these are people, and if they are unsaved they are going to hell... they are damned to eternal punishment. these people deserve our respect. they are not scabs in our lil Christian world. 
We need to be prepared to debate our faith properly with unsaved people... Study the bible's truths and remember them. Forget the rest. Know what you know and live in tolerance and peace. Be an example of Christ's love. Then when you are given the chance, share the truths of His love and his gift of salvation.
If you are a believer you are blessed with an advantage... why not just share this advantage with others instead of trying to "set yourselves apart." 
Jesus walked with the lepers, lets follow His example.


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## music-bnatural-smile (Sep 7, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> Well, I understand what you're saying, but I still think that those are political differences.  Do we have to accept discrimination?  Idk, Paul accepted it.  He told slaves to be obedient to their masters.  Jesus accepted it, in that He didn't force the equality of women in society even though He acted differently.
> 
> I think it's okay for Christians to disagree about how to deal with these issues, as Christians have found different ways of approaching them since the beginning.  *Having a different political opinion shouldn't divide us.*



Right, I really hope Christians start being concerned with educating themselves about truth instead of running around talkin about who is right and wrong... The political system is of this world anyways...


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## Shimmie (Sep 7, 2009)

Crackers Phinn said:


> There is a preacher in Arizona who wants G-d to kill Barrack Obama.
> 
> He is an ordained minister.
> 
> ...


 
First, ((( Mommie Hugs ))) to you and Baby :Rose:

In addressing the question:

"We" know that this man is not being lead of God.  I don't care what 'his' title is; God is not in this maddness.   This man is on his own platform and his own sick agenda, which is far removed from the Lord Jesus Christ.  

I don't know of anyone in my personal life nor in this forum who deems this man as being lead of Christianity.   He's not.   Even my 'babies' know this is wrong.   It falls under the Ten Commandments, "Thou Shalt Not Kill". 

He's not a Pastor, not of Jesus Christ.   A Pastor is a Sheppard ordained of God to lead God's followers into the Paths of Righteousness, not death, hell and destruction.   

We live in a 'Bootleg' society, Imposters of the Authentic; and bold enough to be on almost every street corner seeking those vunerable; all I can say is 'Beware'.   Jesus warned us about this more than once. 

As for setting out against Terriorists such as Bin Laden and em' ...  It's kill or be killed.   Which is the greater disaster?  To sit and allow a trerriorist to take over another airline and kill thousands more innocent lives or seek to stop them?   War is ugly and there will no end to them until Jesus returns... so do we play victim and lend ourselves as an accomplist to their terror or do we lend ourselves as the Victor? 

If someone sought to kill your baby, you would not cease to be a Christian just for choosing to protect your child's life.  

Personally, I do not choose violence.  But I'm no sitting duck.  I'm not going out as a wimp.  

Peace and blessings  ...


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## Sharpened (Sep 7, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> Well, I understand what you're saying, but I still think that those are political differences.  Do we have to accept the world's system?  Idk, Paul accepted it.  He told slaves to be obedient to their masters.  Jesus accepted it, in that He didn't force the equality of women in society even though He acted differently.  And there are Mennonite traditions that are completely non-violent, so military service, even just wars, and political participation are completely out of the question.  But their doctrine is still orthodox and they live lives for Christ.
> 
> I think it's okay for Christians to disagree about how to deal with these issues, as Christians have found different ways of approaching them since the beginning.  Having a different _political_ opinion shouldn't divide us.



Unless one owns their own business or is a complete homesteader, we are still slaves: wage slaves. Are we not to abide by the owner's rules to maintain employment? The only difference is we have more options and legal recourse today. Also, men didn't have it so great back then, either. Jesus did uplift women in His own way, and later, His Apostles. Let's not inject modern sensibilities into the means the human race had to survive to get to this point. 

Look at the word discriminatory in a neutral sense, not in a negative one. Paul had no qualms about telling people when they were wrong and instructing others to do the same. To follow Christ is to operate differently from the world. No, we are not to condemn people (that's His call), but we are not to accept all of their actions and thoughts, are we? We have to find the right balance, or we can get caught up in legalism and/or emotionalism, both big distractions, IMO.


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## blazingthru (Sep 7, 2009)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> Why is it always down to homosexuality and abortion?


 

Because its more acceptable now then it was,  We have Homosexual ministers out in the open,  Probably always had them but now they are proud and bold about it,  thats not an agreement with the scriptures. Abortion is just like going to the mall now.  In my opinion sin is sin, no degrees. I love family members that are gay.  Love them so much. but I do not agree with that lifestyle at all.  But I do understand why people make the decision to stay in that lifestyle. Just like any other person that is in sin. Its more of a comfort and difficult to get out of it.


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## prettynatural (Sep 7, 2009)

from a political perspective
Either you follow Christ and believe or you don't. I don't believe in Christian Conservative(ism) politically. I believe it is a facade. I believe that economic conservatives use this label to tug on the heart strings of people who believe in Christ to support their cause and some people fall for it although economically they believe in more liberal views.   


From a spiritual perspective
 I don't like to use those terms either because it does not address the true diverse nature of follows of the Way or Christ. The church that follows closely how the early matyrs and "church" fathers practiced would be in the Orthodox Church, Coptic Church and Ethiopian Tahedo Church. Their practices are more "conservative" if you will than most Prostant Western Churches are today.

As far as the comparison of Conservative being on fire for God and Liberal being lukewarm christian that is not a correct way to describe Christians on their journey to God and salvation.

When someone profess Christ with their tongue and believe in their heart and is baptised in the Name of The Father, SON and HOLY SPIRIT or in the name of JESUS CHRIST(depending our your denominational views) this person's life begins. Confession of Christ is not a magic pill and then you have your "breakthrough" and/are "delivered". Being with Christ takes WORK, patience and Seeking the Kingdom of God FIRST. Many people who confess Christ do not know nor understand this and most importantly getting to this point of revelation takes time and for some it takes a lifetime and for others a few months or years. That is not being lukewarm but that is being real about it. Many people are struggling in faith, if it was not so, then there would not be a need for DAILY BREAD. That is why we believers have to stay steadfast and keep on encouraging our brethren every step of the way. Life is not as simple as BLACK/WHITE and many believers struggle daily to keep on the road.  

I believe the context of the "lukewarm" is taken out of porportion and is used as a badge. In summary, people are on different spots on the spiritual journey to God, some fall off, some pause for a second and some sprint to home plate. We have to be mindful that not every receives relevation at the same time and that God has to fix things in us to get us to the next level. That's not lukewarm, that is the path. A believer can not truly embrace the fullness of God without going through something and knowing that they know, that they know, that they know that I AM is I AM. 
That cannot be taught but it has to be experienced. That is the difference between an Athiest and  a believer. An athiest wants to read it,see it and prove it but a believer KNOWS it. Only life and experience can give you that. Now, is that conservative or liberalism? no. It is the way and path to eternal life.

ETA: If err in some manner please direct me in the spirit of Christ because I am always looking to learn and grow. Thanks!


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 7, 2009)

After a little searching on the subject, I found a pretty good article in Wikepedia concerning what liberal christianity is and they provide theological references.  The methods they use to determine scriptural meaning are  modern methods along the same line of biblical hermeneutics used today.  

There are no preconceptions that scripture is inerrant nor dogma the correct translation therefore, liberal christianity does not hold to any particular set of beliefs by any organization or churches.  But that does not mean that liberal christians do not hold to more traditional or orthodox beliefsets.  

Even what we consider to be the O.T. and N.T. today do not include many ancient texts because councils decided at some point in time which books would be included.   And just look at the variety of deonominations existing today due to differences in interpretation.  They are, like others,  interested in finding meanings and understanding of G-d based upon scriptures.    So,  I don't think that liberal christianity means that people disregard scripture, according to that article.  It's just another type of hermeutics.

So, what does it look like pragmatically?  We've probably moved through so much liberalism that we cannot recognize it today.  Do women cover their heads?  Female pastors?  Is one sinning for not strictly observing the new sabbath on Sunday?  Are men and women separated in the sanctuary?  It goes so far beyond the issue of homosexuality.  But where does it end, then?  I believe that libertarianism refers to politics and liberal christianity is an individualistic type of hermeutics based upon interpreting scripture.


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## Sharpened (Sep 7, 2009)

prettynatural said:


> from a political perspective
> Either you follow Christ and believe or you don't. I don't believe in Christian Conservative(ism) politically. I believe it is a facade. I believe that economic conservatives use this label to tug on the heart strings of people who believe in Christ to support their cause and some people fall for it although economically they believe in more liberal views.



Both liberals and conservatives are guilty of this. No one group has a monopoly on any aspect of human nature.



> From a spiritual perspective
> I don't like to use those terms either because it does not address the true diverse nature of follows of the Way or Christ. The church that follows closely how the early matyrs and "church" fathers practiced would be in the Orthodox Church, Coptic Church and Ethiopian Tahedo Church. Their practices are more "conservative" if you will than most Prostant Western Churches are today.



From what I have seen, I'm not sure they are close to the original practices anymore. Jesus simplified things for us and we made it complicated again. I don't know... The only thing that I can see that has been consistent is the Bible itself.

Every time I see the word _lukewarm_, I think comfortable and/or complacent. You bring up some great points that may be better explored in another thread.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 7, 2009)

prettynatural said:


> f
> From a spiritual perspective
> I don't like to use those terms either because it does not address the true diverse nature of follows of the Way or Christ. The church that follows closely how the early matyrs and "church" fathers practiced would be in the Orthodox Church, Coptic Church and Ethiopian Tahedo Church. Their practices are more "conservative" if you will than most Prostant Western Churches are today.!



Tawahedo.  They certainly do not even regard each other fully, that's for sure.  The Egyptian Copts think the Ethiopians err in some doctrines and neither, I believe, allow orthodox full communion.  They will have to be rebaptised under that church.  St. Mark's church is certainly old and unchanged!  None of them think the catholics are right lol!  And I will not insult the rest of the denominations in telling them how they are viewed.  I had a fight on Youtube with this arrogant dude over that topic and the insults he gave against them.  I won't have it.

Interesting you mentioned it.  Do you attend orthodox church with the Ethiopians or the Copts in general???


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## Sharpened (Sep 7, 2009)

music-bnatural-smile said:


> i didn't read all of the thread, but just about the bolded...
> its not accepting the world's system. its being tolerant of those around you. the gay married couple, the muslim, the rapist... all of these are people, and if they are unsaved they are going to hell... they are damned to eternal punishment. these people deserve our respect. they are not scabs in our lil Christian world.
> We need to be prepared to debate our faith properly with unsaved people... Study the bible's truths and remember them. Forget the rest. Know what you know and live in tolerance and peace. Be an example of Christ's love. Then when you are given the chance, share the truths of His love and his gift of salvation.
> If you are a believer you are blessed with an advantage... why not just share this advantage with others instead of trying to "set yourselves apart."
> Jesus walked with the lepers, lets follow His example.


Jesus did not require tolerance; He wanted us to feed His sheep, to prepare His bride for His coming. He didn't walk with lepers; He cured them. 

The topic is about the conservative/liberal mindset, so I thought the discussion concerned the mind and the world's influence over it. "To set apart" is a continuous _mental_ exercise, not a physical one. Prayer and studying the Bible are two things that do set us apart from the world. One does not have to tolerate actions to be of any good to witnessing or sharing with others on the broad path.


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## prettynatural (Sep 7, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Tawahedo.  They certainly do not even regard each other fully, that's for sure.  The Egyptian Copts think the Ethiopians err in some doctrines and neither, I believe, allow orthodox full communion.  They will have to be rebaptised under that church.  St. Mark's church is certainly old and unchanged!  None of them think the catholics are right lol!  And I will not insult the rest of the denominations in telling them how they are viewed.  I had a fight on Youtube with this arrogant dude over that topic and the insults he gave against them.  I won't have it.
> 
> Interesting you mentioned it.  Do you attend orthodox church with the Ethiopians or the Copts in general???



Nope! My neighbors are! Tawahedo church (Thanks). During my life's journey I have researched and studied alot about the "roots" of Christianity because of some past experiences. In my life, I went from always have a knowing of God ( baptised at 11), weekly church attendance, various relatives are of the cloths. Close relatives in different offices in the church system to questioning everything, to changing religions to finding religion to being on a road to Atheism. Something happened in my life that  stopped my free-fall from God( May 8th 2007, I accepted Christ as my savior again) and I have been back on the road, challenging myself and getting stronger in God, I am almost where I was before the fall. I have had many questions along the way. Part of my post was projective and reflective as what I have seen in others and in my own life experiences.

Yes, there was a break from the Coptic and Tawahedo Church. There is a Tawahedo Church locally in Nashville, I would love to visit but I don't speak Amharic nor read the Gee'z. I still love learning history and various theologies.
Sorry to be off topic, I just wanted to answer your question.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 7, 2009)

prettynatural said:


> Nope! My neighbors are! Tawahedo church (Thanks). During my life's journey I have researched and studied alot about the "roots" of Christianity because of some past experiences. In my life, I went from always have a knowing of God ( baptised at 11), weekly church attendance, various relatives are of the cloths. Close relatives in different offices in the church system to questioning everything, to changing religions to finding religion to being on a road to Atheism. Something happened in my life that  stopped my free-fall from God( May 8th 2007, I accepted Christ as my savior again) and I have been back on the road, challenging myself and getting stronger in God, I am almost where I was before the fall. I have had many questions along the way. Part of my post was projective and reflective as what I have seen in others and in my own life experiences.
> 
> Yes, there was a break from the Coptic and Tawahedo Church. There is a Tawahedo Church locally in Nashville, I would love to visit but I don't speak Amharic nor read the Gee'z. I still love learning history and various theologies.
> Sorry to be off topic, I just wanted to answer your question.




I know what you mean, I've been there.  At our St. Mary's Egyptian Coptic Church, they have on the screen the liturgies in Greek, Copt and English all translated right under each other.  I really like their services...even the prospect that you have only 1 confessor and it's face-to-face.  Scary, but I was reading how people's lives have been changed with having 1 confessor.  Now I know why some in ours go to one priest solely and face-to-face.  Pope Shenouda even visited here in Pittsburgh about last year and he dedicated the church!  I wish I had bee involved then...sigh.  

I dunno, it's a great idea and I have some people encouraging me.  I remember the words of a very dear orthodox priest, Fr. Paisius in K.C., who told me something very kind and spiritual once.  He was right.  I find a lot of spirituality there...something that pushes me further.  But I have to consider everything...like who would I marry?    And my kids???


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## Laela (Sep 7, 2009)

ITA people are on different levels in their Christian walk...they can be a Carnal Christian, a Natural Christian and a Spiritual Christian. 

But in Revelation, God says he will spit one who is lukewarm - neither hot nor cold -- from his mouth. 

Lukewarm is one who knows better just can't seem to make up their mind whether to serve God or the devil and at times go in /out, based on how they feel at any given moment in life and can be in torment because of this.  God will always take them back should they repent. But until they decide to give their life fully to God, they are lukewarm.  




prettynatural said:


> I believe the context of the "lukewarm" is taken out of porportion and is used as a badge. In summary, people are on different spots on the spiritual journey to God, some fall off, some pause for a second and some sprint to home plate. We have to be mindful that not every receives relevation at the same time and that God has to fix things in us to get us to the next level. That's not lukewarm, that is the path. A believer can not truly embrace the fullness of God without going through something and knowing that they know, that they know, that they know that I AM is I AM.
> That cannot be taught but it has to be experienced. That is the difference between an Athiest and  a believer. An athiest wants to read it,see it and prove it but a believer KNOWS it. Only life and experience can give you that. Now, is that conservative or liberalism? no. It is the way and path to eternal life.
> 
> ETA: If err in some manner please direct me in the spirit of Christ because I am always looking to learn and grow. Thanks!


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## Mamita (Sep 8, 2009)

Nymphe said:


> Jesus did not require tolerance; He wanted us to feed His sheep, to prepare His bride for His coming. He didn't walk with lepers; He cured them.
> 
> The topic is about the conservative/liberal mindset, so I thought the discussion concerned the mind and the world's influence over it. "To set apart" is a continuous _mental_ exercise, not a physical one. Prayer and studying the Bible are two things that do set us apart from the world. One does not have to tolerate actions to be of any good to witnessing or sharing with others on the broad path.



Couldn't have said it better, God's people is to be set apart FOR HIM, it's the whole point, and just our lifestyle sets us apart from the world; and yeah he didn't spend his whole life with them, the word does say not to have fellowship with darkness, in fact darkness doesn't even want to fellowship with light, you can be sure at some soint it'll get mad. lol 

and i'll just repeat what someone else said the answer to everything is in the bible POINT BLANK. any topic under the sun is either acceptable, or not acceptable, no grey area, it's either right or wrong. There is ONE Truth, only one, if you have two people that don't say the exact same thing about every topic, one or both is going to hell. 

people don't like hearing that, but it's a fact, the Lord Jesus is not about confusion, when we have his Spirit indwelling it's one voice, in many bodies. If you have one that says something different, that's not the Holy Ghost in everybody, let's not forget Satan has a voice too, demons have a voice too.

so yeah i guess labels like conservative or liberal can only be wordly points of view looking at religious people, cause you either live and breathe the Truth or you don't


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## Poohbear (Sep 8, 2009)

Ramya said:


> *Add fornication to that list.* The bible is clear on these matters. How can one say the word of God is our instruction manual and then pick and choose what applies to his or her life. The term liberal Christian cancels itself out by definition alone.


 I agree. Along with adultery and divorce.

I just find it odd that America was brought up on Christian values, yet, divorce and abortion are legalized. erplexed

I also wish fornication and adultery were spoken against more. It seems like these two sins are more condoned in the world, even among Christians.


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## Poohbear (Sep 8, 2009)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> I think Christians should not concentrate their WHOLE faith on abortion and homosexuality. It makes me think that many people believe as along as you disagree with these things, you are a "true" believer. What about prostitution, sexual slavery, physical slavery, the homeless, widow, orphan, poor immigrants, the depressed/mentally ill? Why dont we talk about those things as much?
> 
> And about abortion: Let's say you are against abortion...what about serving mothers who decided to have their child, but is unable to raise them? Shouldn't we encourage helping these women instead of just saying "no" to abortion?


 I totally agree. In my initial post, I just listed those as examples and then put "etc." at the end. So I wasn't just saying we should base our whole faith on abortion and homosexuality. I wish there was more awareness on other sins as well.



GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Actually, I agree. The OP questioned just what makes a conservative or liberal. I'd like to know the definitions. I don't think liberal necessarily means one agrees with homosexuality. But I don't know because no one answered the question. I think she was asking within the context of true believers of the faith...according to scripture. I'm sure there are liberals versus conservatives. For me, I'm orthodox and protestants are liberals but they are both christians who follow faithfully. Just what actually makes one conservative and one liberal, abortion and homosexuality excluded?



 Exactly!!! Thank you!


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## Poohbear (Sep 8, 2009)

Crackers Phinn said:


> There is a preacher in Arizona who wants G-d to kill Barrack Obama.
> 
> He is an ordained minister.
> 
> ...


Good point!!!

I'm sure people would see him as a conservative Christian, however, his words make me think he has a devil inside of him.


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## Poohbear (Sep 8, 2009)

Ramya said:


> See now it's a matter of convictions v command. There are things God commands us to do and there are things that individually via prompting of the Holy Spirit we are advised not to do. I can't listen to a lot of secular music but it's due to conviction, not law.


Thank you for answering my question. Makes perfect sense!

However, I just don't think a Christian should judge another Christian's salvation just because they listen to r&b music every once in a while, or go see a rated R movie, or go have a drink. Of course, we are going to be judged for our actions, but I wish more people would realize that every Christian is at different levels in their walk with Christ and personal relationship with God.



music-bnatural-smile said:


> i didn't read all of the thread, but just about the bolded...
> its not accepting the world's system. its being tolerant of those around you. the gay married couple, the muslim, the rapist... all of these are people, and if they are unsaved they are going to hell... they are damned to eternal punishment. these people deserve our respect. they are not scabs in our lil Christian world.
> We need to be prepared to debate our faith properly with unsaved people... Study the bible's truths and remember them. Forget the rest. Know what you know and live in tolerance and peace. Be an example of Christ's love. Then when you are given the chance, share the truths of His love and his gift of salvation.
> If you are a believer you are blessed with an advantage... why not just share this advantage with others instead of trying to "set yourselves apart."
> Jesus walked with the lepers, lets follow His example.


I totally agree. God commands us to love everyone. It's okay to hate someone's actions or behaviors, however, we shouldn't hate the actual person. Everyone does wrong (and I'm not saying that as an excuse to sin).  We just have to be more mindful and aware of what's right and wrong and avoid yielding to temptation, and also helping our brother or sister who falls or is falling into Satan's traps of deception. We need to be like Jesus and share the Gospel with people who are unsaved or living outside of God's will.



Laela said:


> ITA people are on different levels in their Christian walk...they can be a Carnal Christian, a Natural Christian and a Spiritual Christian.
> 
> But in Revelation, God says he will spit one who is lukewarm - neither hot nor cold -- from his mouth.
> 
> Lukewarm is one who knows better just can't seem to make up their mind whether to serve God or the devil and at times go in /out, based on how they feel at any given moment in life and can be in torment because of this. God will always take them back should they repent. But until they decide to give their life fully to God, they are lukewarm.


I totally agree with your definition of the term lukewarm.


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## divya (Sep 8, 2009)

I am a Christian.

The conservative v. liberal, traditional v. progressive terms seem like the  politicizing of our faith, which is my personal reason for avoiding them. It's too much. My prayer is simply that the Lord finds my walk pleasing to Him...


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## divya (Sep 8, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> I agree. Along with adultery and divorce.
> 
> *I just find it odd that America was brought up on Christian values, yet, divorce and abortion are legalized.* erplexed
> 
> I also wish fornication and adultery were spoken against more. It seems like these two sins are more condoned in the world, even among Christians.



Just to provide an alternate viewpoint...

It may seem strange but it's actually the way things should be. The U.S. was meant to be a religiously neutral nation, even though the majority of individuals were (and are) Christian. 

Divorce and abortion are not affairs of the government. We have become somewhat accustomed to believing that the government should be a party to our marriage when in fact the parties to marriage are God, husband, and wife (not husband, wife and state as the law attempts to dictate). Abortion, though wrong in the eyes of God, is a personal decision between the individual(s) and the Lord, rather than the state.  God gives us all the freedom of choice - to do right or wrong. He will ultimately reward "_every man according as his work shall be_." *Rev. 22:12-16*. 

*Mark 12:17* - _And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him._


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## Poohbear (Sep 8, 2009)

After reading everyone's point of views, I'm starting to not like the terms of Conservative and Liberal as well. These terms can be demeaning to the true Christian faith and cause division among Christians when God really wants us to be in unity.


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## divya (Sep 8, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> After reading everyone's point of views, I'm starting to not like the terms of Conservative and Liberal as well. These terms can be demeaning to the true Christian faith and cause division among Christians when God really wants us to be in unity.



 It is something that we should carefully examine, imho. It may be perfectly fine in certain instances, but it often seems to result in a "ranking" of spiritual issues, which doesn't have any basis within Christianity according to the Word. Sin is sin. Our actions are either pleasing to God or not pleasing to Him. As you pointed out earlier, homosexuality and abortion seems to receive primary concern but fornication and adultery sometimes appear to be left in the dust. Yet the Scriptures say...

*1 Corinthians 6:9-10* -  _Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God._

*Romans 1:28-32* - _And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them_.


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## Poohbear (Sep 8, 2009)

*^^^divya, you are certainly right about that. *


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## music-bnatural-smile (Sep 8, 2009)

Nymphe said:


> Jesus did not require tolerance; He wanted us to feed His sheep, to prepare His bride for His coming. He didn't walk with lepers; He cured them.
> 
> The topic is about the conservative/liberal mindset, so I thought the discussion concerned the mind and the world's influence over it. "To set apart" is a continuous _mental_ exercise, not a physical one. Prayer and studying the Bible are two things that do set us apart from the world. *One does not have to tolerate actions to be of any good to witnessing or sharing with others on the broad path. *


 
The problem of this is the degree and level to which you want to speak about intolerance... Does intolerance mean disagreeing, or does it mean walking up to everyone who is sinning and telling them that they are going to hell...
When I say tolerance I mean to realize what we can't change and to use this truth as a way to impact our community. We can't change people, only God can. We can't save people, only God can.



Laela said:


> ITA people are on different levels in their Christian walk...they can be a *Carnal Christian, a Natural Christian and a Spiritual Christian. *
> 
> But in Revelation, God says he will spit one who is lukewarm - neither hot nor cold -- from his mouth.
> 
> Lukewarm is one who knows better just can't seem to make up their mind whether to serve God or the devil and at times go in /out, based on how they feel at any given moment in life and can be in torment because of this. God will always take them back should they repent. But until they decide to give their life fully to God, they are lukewarm.


 
I don't like these labels because we don't have a ruler with dashes for each of these labels that tells us which we are... We are all sinners, we are all saved... WE ALL HAVE PROBLEMS...
This makes Christianity seem like a caste system, and I think so many believers like that because of a desire for status and authority... That's why I don't like labels like that.


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## music-bnatural-smile (Sep 8, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> I agree. Along with adultery and divorce.
> 
> *I just find it odd that America was brought up on Christian values, yet, divorce and abortion are legalized.* erplexed
> 
> I also wish fornication and adultery were spoken against more. *It seems like these two sins are more condoned in the world, even among Christians.*


 
These things are legalized because of the foundations of this country. We must remember, *God gave us freedom of choice*. That is a GIGANTIC part of Christianity. We have to choose to believe. Likewise, we can choose not to. This country would not be what it is if we didn't have basic human rights. We as Christians can't walk around imposing our beliefs on everyone. That goes against our own religion. Making things illegal won't change the sin. *The problem is the sin, not the law. *Unfortunately many Christians don't want to put in the work to counsel those around us and help those around us by giving them the nonjudgemental care that they need... We just want the law to take away people's rights. Its just like in Africa when they sew up the women's genitalia to *MAKE THEM* sexually pure...  And we all know how problematic this thinking is. 
God does not *MAKE *us do anything. He can, but he gives us a choice. And we have to stop thinking that we can *MAKE *each other act right, because we can't. We can only pray that God's influence will have its way. And that's of course his decision to make.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 8, 2009)

Divorce is not always a sin...thereby...hermeutics and interpretation of that issue.  The church began allowing it as a response of mercy to those whose marriages were malformed...missing elements that would have made it a holy, valid marital union.  If done for selfish reasons in a valid marriage, yes, it is sinful if one party desires to leave their valid spouse for another.  If done because the church has allowed you mercy in the situation aforementioned, then it is not (annulment).  Either way, if there is a valid union that is not working and there is reason to separate (abuse, adultery, homosexuality etc), then the parties remain married but separate, for life.  G-d doesn't cure everything, including a mean spouse.  Sometimes, there is need for a separation and if not  reconciliable, then it's permanent.  G-d will not force anybody to do right and some people exercise this gift in free will to the extreme for life.


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## SND411 (Sep 8, 2009)

music-bnatural-smile said:


> These things are legalized because of the foundations of this country. We must remember, *God gave us freedom of choice*. That is a GIGANTIC part of Christianity. We have to choose to believe. Likewise, we can choose not to. This country would not be what it is if we didn't have basic human rights. We as Christians can't walk around imposing our beliefs on everyone. That goes against our own religion. Making things illegal won't change the sin. *The problem is the sin, not the law. *Unfortunately many Christians don't want to put in the work to counsel those around us and help those around us by giving them the nonjudgemental care that they need... We just want the law to take away people's rights. Its just like in Africa when they sew up the women's genitalia to *MAKE THEM* sexually pure...  And we all know how problematic this thinking is.
> God does not *MAKE *us do anything. He can, but he gives us a choice. And we have to stop thinking that we can *MAKE *each other act right, because we can't. We can only pray that God's influence will have its way. And that's of course his decision to make.



Also, I'm sorry but almost every country run by "religious values" ie, theocratic, becomes corrupt. Even God said this when the ancient Israelites wanted a human king. The only Kingdom truly run by righteousness that will ever fail is the Kingdom of God with Christ as King. 

We should not expect to look at our worldly government to see Truth, but towards the Heavens instead. And quite frankly, I never viewed Christianity as a religion that is meant to be promoted by any government whatsoever.


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## SND411 (Sep 8, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Divorce is not always a sin...thereby...hermeutics and interpretation of that issue.  The church began allowing it as a response of mercy to those whose marriages were malformed...missing elements that would have made it a holy, valid marital union.  If done for selfish reasons in a valid marriage, yes, it is sinful if one party desires to leave their valid spouse for another.  If done because the church has allowed you mercy in the situation aforementioned, then it is not (annulment).  Either way, if there is a valid union that is not working and there is reason to separate (abuse, adultery, homosexuality etc), then the parties remain married but separate, for life.  G-d doesn't cure everything, including a mean spouse.  Sometimes, there is need for a separation and if not  reconciliable, then it's permanent.  G-d will not force anybody to do right and some people exercise this gift in free will to the extreme for life.



I think it is okay to be seperated, but never okay to divorce and remarry if the opther partner is still alive.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 8, 2009)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> Also, I'm sorry but almost every country run by "religious values" ie, theocratic, becomes corrupt. Even God said this when the ancient Israelites wanted a human king*.* *The only Kingdom truly run by righteousness that will ever fail is the Kingdom of God with Christ as King. *
> 
> We should not expect to look at our worldly government to see Truth, but towards the Heavens instead. And quite frankly, I never viewed Christianity as a religion that is meant to be promoted by any government whatsoever.



But wouldn't that be a government run by religious values?  Somehow, righteousness must be gauged by actions, hence religious values.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 8, 2009)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> I think it is okay to be seperated, but never okay to divorce and remarry if the opther partner is still alive.


\

That's where I'm glad to be catholic and protected.  Mercy is valued whereas the alternative is condemnation to live alone forever.  Again, I'm talking about valid unions.


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## SND411 (Sep 8, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> But wouldn't that be a government run by religious values?  Somehow, righteousness must be gauged by actions, hence religious values.



What I mean is that no government on Earth should be expected to truly represent the Kingdom of God.


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## Poohbear (Sep 8, 2009)

music-bnatural-smile said:


> *The problem of this is the degree and level to which you want to speak about intolerance... Does intolerance mean disagreeing, or does it mean walking up to everyone who is sinning and telling them that they are going to hell...*
> *When I say tolerance I mean to realize what we can't change and to use this truth as a way to impact our community. We can't change people, only God can. We can't save people, only God can.*
> 
> 
> ...


I agree. This is one thing some Christians need to realize is that ONLY GOD CAN change people and save people. All we can do is share with people the word of God and our experiences and pray for them.  We cannot force people or intimidate people or scare people into changing their ways or believing in God. That takes away from God's glory and omnipotence.


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## Poohbear (Sep 8, 2009)

music-bnatural-smile said:


> These things are legalized because of the foundations of this country. We must remember, *God gave us freedom of choice*. That is a GIGANTIC part of Christianity. We have to choose to believe. Likewise, we can choose not to. This country would not be what it is if we didn't have basic human rights. We as Christians can't walk around imposing our beliefs on everyone. That goes against our own religion. Making things illegal won't change the sin. *The problem is the sin, not the law. *Unfortunately many Christians don't want to put in the work to counsel those around us and help those around us by giving them the nonjudgemental care that they need... We just want the law to take away people's rights. Its just like in Africa when they sew up the women's genitalia to *MAKE THEM* sexually pure... And we all know how problematic this thinking is.
> God does not *MAKE *us do anything. He can, but he gives us a choice. And we have to stop thinking that we can *MAKE *each other act right, because we can't. We can only pray that God's influence will have its way. And that's of course his decision to make.


I realize that God gave us the freedom of choice and to make decisions in this life. I just made that statement earlier as a way to point out the rhetorical question of "Why are some sins okay, allowed, condoned, or legalized while others are not?" And I agree that the problem is sin, however, I also see a problem with the law as well.  I know there are man-made laws and God-made laws, but if people shouldn't impose beliefs on people, why should the law impose beliefs? 

I think it's sad that some Christians don't want to take the time to help other people out, but at the same time, some of those people who we think need help don't want our help too. For example, I'm sure we all have heard people feeling sorry for homeless people and wonder why no one tries to help them. Well guess what? There are some homeless people who choose to be homeless and rather be homeless than to be living in a shelter or transformation house or family home where there are rules and restrictions. Some rather have freedom on the streets over comfort in a shelter with other people. 

And I agree that God does not make us do anything and that we can't make each other act right either. God is in control and allows things to happen. All we can do is pray as well as being a positive role model for people around us.


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## music-bnatural-smile (Sep 8, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> I realize that God gave us the freedom of choice and to make decisions in this life. I just made that statement earlier as a way to point out the rhetorical question of "Why are some sins okay, allowed, condoned, or legalized while others are not?" And I agree that the problem is sin, however, I also see a problem with the law as well. I know there are man-made laws and God-made laws, but if people shouldn't impose beliefs on people, why should the law impose beliefs?
> 
> I think it's sad that some Christians don't want to take the time to help other people out, but at the same time, some of those people who we think need help don't want our help too. For example, I'm sure we all have heard people feeling sorry for homeless people and wonder why no one tries to help them. *Well guess what? There are some homeless people who choose to be homeless and rather be homeless than to be living in a shelter or transformation house or family home where there are rules and restrictions. *Some rather have freedom on the streets over comfort in a shelter with other people.
> 
> And I agree that God does not make us do anything and that we can't make each other act right either. God is in control and allows things to happen. *All we can do is pray as well as being a positive role model for people around us*.


 

This is so true... i think also God doesn't want us to overburden ourselves with the sins of others... That homeless guy, we can always give him a bottle of water and a sandwich, even if he won't go to his family or whoever and try to clean himself up...
Its the same with the unsaved folk in our life... The gay cousin... we can always be nice to him and show him love... The kid that got an abortion in their family... We can comfort them and show them that they don't have to be blacklisted because of their decision...
There is such a balance to make and I think a lot of our difficulty as black women is very cultural... Many of us were raised in houses without a lot of grace... i don't see a lot (I'm not saying there aren't any) of Christian black households where you can "come back to the cross"
A lot of our parents believe in tough love, and many people only live by example... We try to "tough love" the world...
I have had to try very hard to overcome this... and God made sure that he humbled my heart with my own situations... And I am helping him work on my parents too...
While tough love can cause growth, it can also bring pain if redemption isn't shown...


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## Laela (Sep 8, 2009)

Well, let's look at the meaning of "Tolerance"
*1* : capacity to endure pain or hardship : endurance, fortitude, stamina
*2 *a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own b : the act of allowing something : toleration

As you can see, this all has nothing to do with a *person*, but rather actions/beliefs/thoughts. Basically I can (and should) love everyone; but if my beliefs are in conflict with someone's or they disregard or show no respect to my beliefs, our human relationship can only go so far. That is not to say I don't love them, for it would be ungodly of me to hate someone because of their beliefs/principles. Just as someone has a right to live how they choose to live, I have the right choose to be friends/create relationships with whom I choose. Granted, there are times the Spirit of God will lead us to cross paths with others who don't share the same faith or beliefs. This happens all the time. But Christians have rights, too, when it comes to relationships...  

Nevertheless, do you have Agape love in your heart for everyone, in spite of who they are or what they do? I'm sure you still love the "hypocrites" at your church, right?  I hope so. A child of God loves people, period.

You are correct, only God can change/save anyone. With God's help, I can look past insults and injuries to my person. But I won't compromise on my beliefs and the Word of God. That's not an effort to change anyone but more an effort to obey God. I WILL love a gay person. No problem there, esp if they're a nice person. But I WILL NOT condone or encourage their lifestyle. The Word condemns, not me. There is a stark difference, and I hope you can see that.



music-bnatural-smile said:


> The problem of this is the degree and level to which you want to speak about intolerance... Does intolerance mean disagreeing, or does it mean walking up to everyone who is sinning and telling them that they are going to hell...
> When I say tolerance I mean to realize what we can't change and to use this truth as a way to impact our community. *We can't change people, only God can. We can't save people, only God can.*






Ah, Music, I respect your opinion on labels..but that won't change the fact that not everyone is in the same place spiritually. The results in people's lives is proof of this. This explains how some Christians can get blessings all the time and others never do.

Maturity in Christ requires growth and some Christians are more mature in Christ than others because of the effort/work they put into their walk. Some are able to hear from God, others can't. Some pray fervently, all hours of the day, at any time, some don't pray at all, except for when they go to church. 

Some read their Bible and meditate on the Word so it's implanted in their heart, some just read the Bible because they feel the "have to". There is a BIG GINORMOUS difference between reading the Word -- which takes little effort - and understanding it -- which take a lot of effort and a lot of time. Not everyone puts in the same effort toward their Christian walk. But with all that said, that DOES NOT make one Christian more saved or better than another and you seem to be stuck on this misconception.  
You use the "Christian" label all the time to address the issue of hypocrisy..but of course, those who aren't or try their best not to be, get labeled as such anyway.

Whether a student is in the 1st grade, 9th grade, or college...they're still a student. Please look past the labeling and try to understand what it is I'm saying about growth in Christ.... that's my point.



music-bnatural-smile said:


> I don't like these labels because we don't have a ruler with dashes for each of these labels that tells us which we are... We are all sinners, we are all saved... WE ALL HAVE PROBLEMS...
> This makes Christianity seem like a caste system, and I think so many believers like that because of a desire for status and authority... That's why I don't like labels like that.


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## music-bnatural-smile (Sep 8, 2009)

Laela said:


> Well, let's look at the meaning of "Tolerance"
> *1* : capacity to endure pain or hardship : endurance, fortitude, stamina
> *2 *a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own b : the act of allowing something : toleration
> 
> ...


 
I just don't understand why there's always talk about who is hearing God and who isn't... who is trying and who isn't... The things you listed are actions, and we can never know the intent behind the actions... I know many people who "pray" all day just cuz they saw their momma do it... My new testament prof. read and understood the bible all day, but he denies Christ fervently... Why so much emphasis on the actions and not the heart? And I know you can only speak for yourself on this one, I'm not asking for like all of Christianity, but just for you and anyone else who always places emphasis on signs of growth...

And about your obedience to God and compromising your beliefs... How is respecting others compromising? And I don't think you meant to say that you wouldn't respect people, it just seems like people use that phrase to make it ok to say whatever they want to people that are living in the sins we hate (fornication, gayness, etc.)
I said the sins we hate, cuz we rarely say anything to rude people that are Christians, or to the Christians that don't talk to their family members that are non-believers... many of us give them a pass... Even though they, like everyone, is CLEARLY living in sin...

And about the blessings explain to me Jay Z and Beyonce... That is all I need to say about that. There are many people who live *HARD *lives yet act out what you call growth and obedience. God doesn't pick blessings just because you acted right in public... Really we don't know why... Who can really know his ways? So as far as creating a gradient for blessings... I REALLY don't agree with that... thats kindof over the top.

With all do respect, I think that looking around and checking for maturity in everyone is one of the lesser mature things a Christian can do... Ted Haggard was a pastor of a mega church! Such a role only a mature Christian can have right? His mature self was quite gay wasn't he... And his family... They are blessed in many ways! 

I think that measurements and blessing counting and all of that is a distraction to Christ and is a fallacious thought pattern... And somewhat elitist at that... 

I'm really not trying to be rude either cuz I think you're great... and I'm glad you responded to my post


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 8, 2009)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> What I mean is that no government on Earth should be expected to truly represent the Kingdom of God.



I fully understand.  The government is not the microcosm but the human family is.  I know.  We can only hope for the day when all is under Messiah.  May that day come speedily!!


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## momi (Sep 8, 2009)

Laela said:


> Well, let's look at the meaning of "Tolerance"
> *1* : capacity to endure pain or hardship : endurance, fortitude, stamina
> *2 *a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own b : the act of allowing something : toleration
> 
> ...


 
Amen.  I completely agree... especially with the bolded.


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## Laela (Sep 8, 2009)

Hmm.. I'm not emphasizing signs of growth, just stating that all Christians aren't the same. We are all individuals in Christ and our relationship with him is unique.  




music-bnatural-smile said:


> I just don't understand why there's always talk about who is hearing God and who isn't... who is trying and who isn't... The things you listed are actions, and we can never know the intent behind the actions... I know many people who "pray" all day just cuz they saw their momma do it... My new testament prof. read and understood the bible all day, but he denies Christ fervently... Why so much emphasis on the actions and not the heart? And I know you can only speak for yourself on this one, I'm not asking for like all of Christianity, *but just for you and anyone else who always places emphasis on signs of growth...*





It isn't... you seem to think so. I can respectfully tell others of my faith.. You know, I can witness to someone and tell them what the Bible says because I believe it,  and not be obnoxious or beligerant about it and they would STILL will be offended.  The Word itself is an offense. 


music-bnatural-smile said:


> And about your obedience to God and compromising your beliefs... *How is respecting others compromising*? And I don't think you meant to say that you wouldn't respect people, it just seems like people use that phrase to make it ok to say whatever they want to people that are living in the sins we hate (fornication, gayness, etc.)
> I said the sins we hate, cuz we rarely say anything to rude people that are Christians, or to the Christians that don't talk to their family members that are non-believers... many of us give them a pass... Even though they, like everyone, is CLEARLY living in sin...




Now, see I never said blessings is just material riches. *Blessings *aren't just material riches...one can be blessed in many ways. A person can get favors from others through their obedience to God and their faith (works): For example, an approved mortgage or loan; A baby that was prayed for, a reuniting with a loved one, ...that's what I mean by _*blessings*_. But it's one thing when God blesses Man with material wealth and it's another when Man acquires it on his own. So of course, unsaved folks can be "blessed". 

The Word says seek ye first the kingdom of God AND his righteousness and all these things *shall be added* on to you. That means being saved is a blessing unto itself.  Riches and Wealth aren't the same thing. Someone who isn't rich materialistically can enjoy a wealthy life in Christ, because the blessings come in all forms and are the benefits of seeking him first. 



music-bnatural-smile said:


> And about the blessings explain to me Jay Z and Beyonce... That is all I need to say about that. There are many people who live *HARD *lives yet act out what you call growth and obedience. God doesn't pick blessings just because you acted right in public... Really we don't know why... Who can really know his ways? So as far as creating a gradient for blessings... I REALLY don't agree with that... thats kindof over the top.
> 
> With all do respect, I think that looking around and checking for maturity in everyone is one of the lesser mature things a Christian can do... Ted Haggard was a pastor of a mega church! Such a role only a mature Christian can have right? His mature self was quite gay wasn't he... And his family... They are blessed in many ways!
> 
> I think that measurements and blessing counting and all of that is a distraction to Christ and is a fallacious thought pattern... And somewhat elitist at that...





We are all growing in Christ... no matter where we are in the Church. My pastor has a large congregation yet is always humble to say he's still learning and growing in Christ. Maturity to me doesn't mean one has peaked, but has grown. I have seen growth in my own life and those of others I know. When the Spirit is working on us, we tend to shed the old man...however long it takes. The Laela two years ago wouldn't have had the amount patience of the Laela today.  

About that minister, I try not to judge anyone....I spoke generically, so I am in no postion to say he's mature in Christ just because he's a minister. 



music-bnatural-smile said:


> With all do respect, I think that looking around and checking for maturity in everyone is one of the lesser mature things a Christian can do... Ted Haggard was a pastor of a mega church! Such a role only a mature Christian can have right? His mature self was quite gay wasn't he... And his family... They are blessed in many ways!
> 
> I think that measurements and blessing counting and all of that is a distraction to Christ and is a fallacious thought pattern... And somewhat elitist at that...





I know you're not being rude... If we understand each other, we'll get past the misconceptions and perceptions. I like that you ask the toughest questions..makes my head hurt, but I'll try to understand where you're coming from. 

Amen and God bless... 


music-bnatural-smile said:


> I'm really not trying to be rude either cuz I think you're great... and I'm glad you responded to my post


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## daydreem2876 (Sep 8, 2009)

I think the labels "conservative christian" and "liberal christian" are just a marketing ploy used by politicians in order to push their respective agendas because it is easier to question one's dedication to walking in the path of Christ to gain support than to argue the facts and do what is socially responsible as a matter of law for the greater good.  There is a separation of church and state in this country for a reason.  I honestly believe that as Christians, we, for far too long, have allowed the state to define what our faith should look like. 

Those who choose to be, are all Christians. How one choose to make that walk is up to the individual.  Who are we to judge the path of another in this walk.  I may not agree with you, like what you do, or approve of your choices but I respect your the others choice to do it.  As a Christian, I am going to love you, pray for you, and if God so tells me, I will embrace you.


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## music-bnatural-smile (Sep 8, 2009)

Laela... 

Tru tru...

I am glad we can disagree this way because I'm hoping we are learning from each other 

Its nice to me that you can state your point with grace and without calling someone a tool for the devil... that is an awesome trait of yours... As Christians we should all learn how to disagree more gracefully without showing defensiveness and self-righteousness... and thank you because you do it every time i come over here! People need to follow your lead 

For me, I am just so careful about the "Christian" things I say because I am around nonbelievers and I have hurt people and discouraged people from Christ by being so defiant, so when I feel like I have seen it in someone, I have to respond... At the same time too I sometimes lack the adamance in my belief that you display... Its a tough balance...  
But its also hard to show the truth in what you mean online... so really we all could be on the same page and not even know it... Communication is funny...

Anyways, Thanks Laela


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 9, 2009)

Laela said:


> As you can see, this all has nothing to do with a *person*, but rather actions/beliefs/thoughts. Basically I can (and should) love everyone; but if my beliefs are in conflict with someone's or they disregard or show no respect to my beliefs, our human relationship can only go so far. That is not to say I don't love them, for it would be ungodly of me to hate someone because of their beliefs/principles.
> 
> 
> Ah, Music, I respect your opinion on labels..but that won't change the fact that not everyone is in the *same place spiritually. The results in people's lives is proof of this. This explains how some Christians can get blessings all the time and others never do.
> ...



Good points.  My issue is this, no one has yet given their view of liberal christianity aside from mentioning homosexuality or abortion.  It's a much deeper issue because liberal christians can and do hold to orthodox or traditional beliefs of the faith.  What are the exact specifics everyone is talking about devoid of sexual sin?

Regarding scripture and the christian walk and growing deeper in it, I think that's largely subjective to individual interpretation according to many beliefs here on this list.  And to the bolded, I'd say that G-d blesses everyone, with air, water, sun, both good and bad to help them grow.  Waking up in the morning is a tremendous blessing.  Having material things or promotions and whatnot...just material things.  I'm reminded of people living generation through generation in third world poverty but exhibiting great faith and graces.  Graces are blessings.  I'd think that if one received spiritual gifts, those would outweigh a million to one or higher physical blessings.  I'm not sure which blessings you were referring to.

Hey ladies, give a list of which acts they consider to be liberal christianity (no sexual sin or abortion).

I'll start:

Casual dress
Women not covering their heads in sanctuary
Women sitting next to men in sanctuary
Women becoming pastors
Men and women allowed to remarry who committed adultery against a spouse in a valid marital union (not all marriages are valid...I've explained that one before)
Kissing children during the service (it's not allowable in orthodoxy...kisses and external shows of affections are reserved for Christ)
Working on Sunday...or not strictly observing the Sabbath
Men swimming with women in a public pool
??Not sure so correct me if I'm wrong...but doctrines such as where the Holy Spirit proceeds from, the Father and the Son or from the Father


Can somebody add to this any specifics they consider to be liberal christianity?????  Beliefs or actions.


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## SND411 (Sep 9, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Good points.  My issue is this, no one has yet given their view of liberal christianity aside from mentioning homosexuality or abortion.  It's a much deeper issue because liberal christians can and do hold to orthodox or traditional beliefs of the faith.  What are the exact specifics everyone is talking about devoid of sexual sin?
> 
> Regarding scripture and the christian walk and growing deeper in it, I think that's largely subjective to individual interpretation according to many beliefs here on this list.  And to the bolded, I'd say that G-d blesses everyone, with air, water, sun, both good and bad to help them grow.  Waking up in the morning is a tremendous blessing.  Having material things or promotions and whatnot...just material things.  I'm reminded of people living generation through generation in third world poverty but exhibiting great faith and graces.  Graces are blessings.  I'd think that if one received spiritual gifts, those would outweigh a million to one or higher physical blessings.  I'm not sure which blessings you were referring to.
> 
> ...



Notice how many of these things are based on what women should or should not do....


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 9, 2009)

why did this double???


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 9, 2009)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> Notice how many of these things are based on what women should or should not do....




Because those are tangible differences that have been made in the Church from the ancient model to now.  I noticed it too.  We just keep on throwing out that term "liberal" without providing concrete examples.  How will we know what was orthodox and representative of the true faith before "liberalism" if we don't provide the actual practices of the body in the Church, home and worship?

Can you provide any you can think of to add to the list?

Thinking of ...I can and it's a biggie.  The Eucharist!  Whether it is the body (host) and blood (wine) of Christ and whether it is reinterpreted not to be.  Also, regarding the sacrifice, facing the altar as opposed to facing the congregation during the consecration.  Removing the Ark (holding the consecrated hosts or Body of Christ) from behind the altar and putting it to the side as a response to people not bowing to Christ when they enter the Church...and other irreverent behaviors going on these days in the service.  That's liberalism.

C'mon ladies.....anything in your neck of the woods?  Is it a feeling?  A belief?  A practice???


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## prettynatural (Sep 10, 2009)

I see where you are coming from GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I and for the most part, I agree.

 If we were to look at our practices and study the theology and religion as a whole, we can see in the west, particularly in the bible belt, where I live, the practices are extremely cultural and "liberal". Does that mean it is a bad thing? I don't suppose so. I can see a positive as to where people are able to express their spirituality in the confines of their culture. I do have an issues that the "liberals" in context of not keeping with the ancient traditions tend to view their brand as superior and only righteous. I also, feel that Christ spoke out about all of the religiousness that the Jews had and not being in the Spirit. So, it can both both ways. If we concentrate on all of the technical things, bowing down, facing the alter etc then we can loose sight of our purpose for fellowship and worship. 

Also, I believe that when people read the word they must understand history and culture of the time for when the bible was written.


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## Poohbear (Sep 10, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Good points. My issue is this, no one has yet given their view of liberal christianity aside from mentioning homosexuality or abortion. It's a much deeper issue because liberal christians can and do hold to orthodox or traditional beliefs of the faith. What are the exact specifics everyone is talking about devoid of sexual sin?
> 
> Regarding scripture and the christian walk and growing deeper in it, I think that's largely subjective to individual interpretation according to many beliefs here on this list. And to the bolded, I'd say that G-d blesses everyone, with air, water, sun, both good and bad to help them grow. Waking up in the morning is a tremendous blessing. Having material things or promotions and whatnot...just material things. I'm reminded of people living generation through generation in third world poverty but exhibiting great faith and graces. Graces are blessings. I'd think that if one received spiritual gifts, those would outweigh a million to one or higher physical blessings. I'm not sure which blessings you were referring to.
> 
> ...


 Thanks! This is what I was really looking for in this thread. What makes you a Liberal Christian and what makes you a Conservative Christian? I know the terms really don't matter since both groups are Christians but what practices, beliefs, or actions make you liberal or conservative?

Here are some other things I have read about *Liberal Christians*:

*They are comfortable with ambiguity and diversity

*They see the Bible as a witness to revelation, or generally inspired, rather than completely inspired in all its parts

*They are quick to point out that the falleness and imperfection of its human authors and gives the Bible an imperfect quality and authority


*They do not look for "miracles" to confirm the existence of God

*They feel that faith in God allows one to see the Spirit moving in the everyday stuff of life

*They believe in universal salvation

*Liberal Christian tend to be found in the following denominations: American Baptist Churches, USA; Disciples of Christ; Episcopal Church; Evangelical Lutheran Church in America; Presbyterian Church, USA; United Church of Christ, and the United Methodist Church. The Unitarian Universalist Association and the Metropolitan Community Churches are even more liberally minded.


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## Poohbear (Sep 10, 2009)

Things I've read about *Conservative Christians:*

*They are often content to answer religious questions by appealing to the absolute authority of Scripture (literal view)

*They see the Bible as the completely inspired Word of God

*They believe in the Inerrancy of the Scriptures

*They believe in the virgin birth (and the deity of Jesus) 

*They believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus

*They believe in the authenticity of Christ's miracles

*They believe in both a literal Heaven and a literal Hell 

*Conservative Christian denominations: Southern Baptist, Roman Catholic, etc.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 10, 2009)

prettynatural said:


> I see where you are coming from GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I and for the most part, I agree.
> 
> If we were to look at our practices and study the theology and religion as a whole, we can see in the west, particularly in the bible belt, where I live, the practices are extremely cultural and "liberal". Does that mean it is a bad thing? I don't suppose so. I can see a positive as to where people are able to express their spirituality in the confines of their culture. I do have an issues that the "liberals" in context of not keeping with the ancient traditions tend to view their brand as superior and only righteous. I also, feel that Christ spoke out about all of the religiousness that the Jews had and not being in the Spirit. So, it can both both ways. If we concentrate on all of the technical things, bowing down, facing the alter etc then we can loose sight of our purpose for fellowship and worship.
> 
> Also, I believe that when people read the word they must understand history and culture of the time for when the bible was written.



When Jesus spoke out against the religiousness, it wasn't against Jews, it was against the leaders who placed more value on external practice than internal.  Judaism is fine.  Jesus himself was an observant Jew, as were Mary, Josef, all their cousins and family, and the early church.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 10, 2009)

What's "universal salvation?"


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 10, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> Things I've read about *Conservative Christians:*
> 
> *They are often content to answer religious questions by appealing to the absolute authority of Scripture (literal view)



I wouldn't say the literal view tho, for catholics.  We know that there is allegory in the scriptures.  For instance, Revelations.  As I was taught, it's not literal.  We also are not sola scriptura, but follow sacred tradition as that handed down by the apostles...in the unbroken line of faith as that of Moses...oral law and written law (commentaries etc.).

This is good.  I wish we'd all participate and demonstrate just how liberal or conservative our churches are regarding specific things.  Birth control?


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## Mortons (Sep 10, 2009)

I'm a liberal Christian. And I am unconcerned with what other Christians think of me I am only concerned with what God himself thinks of me. So say what you will.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 10, 2009)

Mortons said:


> I'm a liberal Christian. And I am unconcerned with what other Christians think of me I am only concerned with what God himself thinks of me. So say what you will.



I don't think anybody's judging you.  How do you define liberal christianity, if you don't mind?  I consider myself liberal as well...even though I hold orthodox beliefs.


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## Mortons (Sep 10, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> I don't think anybody's judging you.  How do you define liberal christianity, if you don't mind?  I consider myself liberal as well...even though I hold orthodox beliefs.



I am a basically a Christian with liberal viewpoints. I feel that people have a right to choose what is best for themselves and their life. I also don't think there is one cut and dry path to the Lord nor do I think what I believe should be forced on anyone.


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## divya (Sep 11, 2009)

Mortons said:


> I am a basically a Christian with liberal viewpoints. *I feel that people have a right to choose what is best for themselves and their life*. I also don't think there is one cut and dry path to the Lord nor do I think what I believe should be forced on anyone.



I wouldn't even label the bold as "liberal" - that is a strictly Scriptural and God-given right. Often, a number of the self-defined "conservative Christians" dispute the existence of this right in the Bible, which is really disputing the character of God.


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## blazingthru (Sep 11, 2009)

We should be concerned about what others christian think of us.  Aren't we each others examples, aren't we suppose to be uplifting each others. I have learned from other Christians how to handle certain situations, even some things to avoid.  I truly believe we are suppose to help one another.


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## Poohbear (Sep 11, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> What's "universal salvation?"


It's the belief that everyone is going to Heaven no matter what they believe (Hell doesn't exist). This is based on the notion that God is Love and wouldn't let anyone burn in Hell for eternity because of His loving nature.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 11, 2009)

blazingthru said:


> We should be concerned about what others christian think of us.  Aren't we each others examples, aren't we suppose to be uplifting each others. I have learned from other Christians how to handle certain situations, even some things to avoid.  I truly believe we are suppose to help one another.



To a certain degree, yes, and to a certain degree, no.  If I were worried how people thought of catholics, I wouldn't be one because of the extreme persecution we face every single day.  We just keep on going but we don't put those pressures on others, attempting to proselytize them.  That's coercion.  

What if some women wear only dresses and others wear pants...and the dresses think the pants are wrong and ung-dly?  I've seen that as well.  If you live a moral life...then you do.  There is always going to be somebody who thinks you're not up to par.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 11, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> It's the belief that everyone is going to Heaven no matter what they believe (Hell doesn't exist). This is based on the notion that God is Love and wouldn't let anyone burn in Hell for eternity because of His loving nature.




Is the American Baptist Church different from other baptist churches?  And methodists...I wasn't aware of any of this.  Wow.


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## Poohbear (Sep 11, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Is the American Baptist Church different from other baptist churches? And methodists...I wasn't aware of any of this. Wow.


There's division within the Baptist denomination (American Baptist, Anabaptist, Southern Baptist, etc.). I know that Southern Baptist is more conservative than other Baptist churches. 

Here's a website about American Baptist beliefs: 
http://www.firstbaptistscituate.com/americanbaptistbeliefs.aspx

Here's an article about Southern Baptist vs. Baptist:
http://atheism.about.com/od/baptistssouthernbaptists/a/southernbaptist_2.htm

Here's an article about Methodist beliefs:
http://christianity.about.com/od/devotionals/a/Methodist.htm


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## aribell (Sep 11, 2009)

Note: I apologize in advance for the dissertation.  Even though I don't like the labels and feel that they are largely a political ploy and unnecessarily divisive, in a theological sense I do believe that there is something to them.  We see the manifestation of the differences in these various practices, but what underlies them?

I think that conservative churches and believers are fundamentally dedicated to keeping faithfully the Christian doctrine (orthodoxy) and life practice (orthpraxy) that has been handed down through the centuries.  I'm not going to say "sola scriptura" because that particular phrase is reflective of a specific doctrine held by some protestant denominations, but which doesn't really encompass the entirety of the Christian tradition.  We know the Christian faith through the Scripture, the creeds formulated by the early church, and the life and witness of all believers throughout the ages.  Conservative churches seek to remain faithful to those things.  The good about this is that it keeps us walking in line with the faith that's been handed down to us.  

The bad thing is that in particular cultural contexts (like the U.S., for example), people find it difficult to separate traditions of the world and flesh from traditions that are truly reflective of the Gospel's truth.  And if Christians have not been exposed to other denominations, cultures and Christian beliefs, we can start to assume that the way our pastor always taught it is the way that it must be, we can forget that no one ever comes to Scripture with unfiltered eyes and that just because it seems obvious to us that the Scripture is "plainly" saying "x," there are other genuine believers who believe that it is "plainly" saying "y."  

So I think that for "conservative Christians" the trick is to familiarize themselves with the breadth and depth of the Christian tradition, historically and geographically, to have a whole picture of the teachings that have been handed down, and to know the difference between "essentials" of the faith and "non-essentials."  We only have to agree on the essentials.  And of course, being "traditional" is absolutely _no guarantee_ that someone has Christ in their heart.  You can still be wrong.

As for the "liberal Christians," I believe that they basically take the view that Scripture is a sacred text, but that its contents are inseparable from the humans who authored it and their personal viewpoints, and so Scripture then is viewed as a positive source of inspiration, but not a book to be absolutely obeyed necessarily.  That's why you couldn't find the gospel if you tried in most of the churches of the liberal denominations that Poohbear listed.  With both Scripture and the Christian tradition viewed as essentially man-made, liberal churches and Christians focus on ridding the faith of all those things that they deem to have repressed people spiritually, economically, politically, etc.  

Social justice issues are emphasized as a way of attempting to evolve the faith beyond what they believe to have been the narrow-mindedness of the age.  So, when Paul says that the husband is the head of the wife, the liberal church would say that that was because of the patriarchy of Paul's time.  When homosexuality is condemned, it was homophobia...or that failing, is an instance of "progressive revelation" in which God did not reveal until later that the practice of biblical times was wrong, using something like slavery as an example.

The liberal Christian faith will make much of the phrase: "God is love, Love is God," meaning that whatever can be seen as a loving act, or a loving attitude is reflective of God.  Love, then, would be what makes people feel positive about themselves and their lives.  And some liberal theologians will take it far enough to say that there is no difference between the phrases, "God is love," and the phrase "Love is God," saying that when we love, that act itself is God.

The liberal Christian faith provides something where the conservative faith does not in its attentiveness to the separation of the Gospel from the practices of the world and culture around us and their push for justice in the world's systems.  They are not "so heavenly minded as to be of no earthly good."  But the damning thing about this perspective is that Jesus was explicitly clear that to know and love God is to _obey _His commandments.  And you can't set yourself to obey his commandments and to grow in the knowledge of Him if you are constantly undermining the source and legitimacy of His revelation of Himself and His will through the Scripture and the witness of all believers.

I don't think that everything that departs from a previous tradition is "liberal."  We as Christians are called to constantly examine ourselves, our attitudes, practices, etc. to see if they need changing.  To make a change isn't "liberal" or "conservative," but is discernment.  I feel that one's attitude toward Scripture, obedience, and other Christians more determines whether someone is "liberal" or "conservative".  We still don't need the labels though.  We just need to continuously seek to obey Christ and to know Him more.


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## Mortons (Sep 11, 2009)

blazingthru said:


> We should be concerned about what others christian think of us.  Aren't we each others examples, aren't we suppose to be uplifting each others. I have learned from other Christians how to handle certain situations, even some things to avoid.*  I truly believe we are suppose to help one another.*



We are supposed to, you are right. But I have felt/received more tearing down from a lot of Christians and instead of getting mad at my religion and God I just choose to build a network of others who are supportive and loving. In anything in life I feel it is best to chew the meat and spit out the bones and thats what I am trying to do.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 11, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> There's division within the Baptist denomination (American Baptist, Anabaptist, Southern Baptist, etc.). I know that Southern Baptist is more conservative than other Baptist churches.
> 
> Here's a website about American Baptist beliefs:
> http://www.firstbaptistscituate.com/americanbaptistbeliefs.aspx
> ...




I'm wondering where most Black Baptist churches fall within...up North, I mean.


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## blazingthru (Sep 13, 2009)

Mortons said:


> We are supposed to, you are right. But I have felt/received more tearing down from a lot of Christians and instead of getting mad at my religion and God I just choose to build a network of others who are supportive and loving. In anything in life I feel it is best to chew the meat and spit out the bones and thats what I am trying to do.


 
I hear this often but cannot relate to it.  I don't have a tough skin at all, I just feel that I am strong in the word of God and will fight my battles with the word and so far I only been a member for a short while but I have been tested and the words fly out of my mouth and we keep it moving as I believe we should love one another no matter what some one says or do I will love them as much as they will allow.  so of course no one knows what to make of me as of yet.  I am learning but not conforming. 

Luke
*9*Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. *10*Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. *11*Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. *12*Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. *13*Share with God's people who are in need. Practice hospitality. 

*14*Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. *15*Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. *16*Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position.[c] Do not be conceited.  *17*Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. *18*If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. *19*Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[d]says the Lord. *20*On the contrary: 
   "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; 
      if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. 
   In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."[e] *21*Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.


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## blazingthru (Sep 14, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> To a certain degree, yes, and to a certain degree, no. If I were worried how people thought of catholics, I wouldn't be one because of the extreme persecution we face every single day. We just keep on going but we don't put those pressures on others, attempting to proselytize them. That's coercion.
> 
> What if some women wear only dresses and others wear pants...and the dresses think the pants are wrong and ung-dly? I've seen that as well. If you live a moral life...then you do. There is always going to be somebody who thinks you're not up to par.


 
At times I am not sure how to answer you questions, because of your beliefs are much more different then mines. 
I encourage people to tell me what they think about what I believe. It makes me stronger in my faith because I know i have studied it out. But I will study it out more and more to see if anything in it is wrong and not according to the scriptures.  In the service that I go to which you know is Seventh Day Adventist there are members that do not like you simply because you might eat meat? That is their issue not mine. However, because I know this I will not cause them to stumble i would never ever eat meat in their presence if I ate meat.  They  might not like the fact as you have stated that I wear pants to service (I don't) but that is again their issue, to be honest if someone came to me and say they are really struggling with my wearing pants I would not wear pants. it is not my desire to cause anyone to struggle. Even thought I feel they should be stronger in their faith I see that they are not and have to work on it I will do what I can to help them by not wearing it. We are not all growing spiritually at the same rate. I have far surpassed feelings like this. I won't take a browbeating. I will encourage whomever to show me scriptures where I am not acting in accordance to the word of God and then we will pray together and I will repent if need be.  This is where i stand on this.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 14, 2009)

blazingthru said:


> At times I am not sure how to answer you questions, because of your beliefs are much more different then mines.
> *I encourage people to tell me what they think about what I believe. It makes me stronger in my faith because I know i have studied it out.* But I will study it out more and more to see if anything in it is wrong and not according to the scriptures. .




That's the last thing I will ever do again. and the only thing I disagree with here.   I compare what I am learning against what the Church teaches.  I believe it's guided by Christ who sent the Holy Spirit, as He said.  It's set in stone for me.  Otherwise, you get lots of judging from others.  Well, even there, sometimes, but I've learned to spot who the religiously snooty folks are.  Thank G-d!  It gives me relief that I'm no longer under their thumbs. I'm under G-d's.  Be careful tho.  That's sometimes like an open invitation for people to throw you under a bus.  That has happened a few times to me from so-called "elders."  LOL.


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## Laela (Nov 17, 2009)

@ the bolded... 




nicola.kirwan said:


> Note: I apologize in advance for the dissertation.  Even though I don't like the labels and feel that they are largely a political ploy and unnecessarily divisive, in a theological sense I do believe that there is something to them.  We see the manifestation of the differences in these various practices, but what underlies them?
> 
> I think that conservative churches and believers are fundamentally dedicated to keeping faithfully the Christian doctrine (orthodoxy) and life practice (orthpraxy) that has been handed down through the centuries.  I'm not going to say "sola scriptura" because that particular phrase is reflective of a specific doctrine held by some protestant denominations, but which doesn't really encompass the entirety of the Christian tradition.  We know the Christian faith through the Scripture, the creeds formulated by the early church, and the life and witness of all believers throughout the ages.  Conservative churches seek to remain faithful to those things.  The good about this is that it keeps us walking in line with the faith that's been handed down to us.
> 
> ...


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## LovingLady (Jun 19, 2010)

nicola.kirwan said:


> Note: I apologize in advance for the dissertation.  Even though I don't like the labels and feel that they are largely a political ploy and unnecessarily divisive, in a theological sense I do believe that there is something to them.  We see the manifestation of the differences in these various practices, but what underlies them?
> 
> I think that conservative churches and believers are fundamentally dedicated to keeping faithfully the Christian doctrine (orthodoxy) and life practice (orthpraxy) that has been handed down through the centuries.  I'm not going to say "sola scriptura" because that particular phrase is reflective of a specific doctrine held by some protestant denominations, but which doesn't really encompass the entirety of the Christian tradition.  We know the Christian faith through the Scripture, the creeds formulated by the early church, and the life and witness of all believers throughout the ages.  Conservative churches seek to remain faithful to those things.  The good about this is that it keeps us walking in line with the faith that's been handed down to us.
> 
> ...




I agree with the area that is in bold. 

I think that a liberal Christian is someone that believes that Jesus died on the cross for them, but they are not willing to follow Him. They are more interested in following the direction and trend that the world is going in.  They are going to be the ones that end up with the mark of the beast on them because they were not paying attention to God's word.


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## LovelyNaps26 (Jun 19, 2010)

prettynatural said:


> from a political perspective
> Either you follow Christ and believe or you don't. I don't believe in Christian Conservative(ism) politically. I believe it is a facade. I believe that economic conservatives use this label to tug on the heart strings of people who believe in Christ to support their cause and some people fall for it although economically they believe in more liberal views.
> 
> 
> ...



 to the whole post


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## nathansgirl1908 (Jun 19, 2010)

I'm not really sure I understand why there are labels.  I don't like it in the political arena and I definitely don't like it in the spiritual arena.  Both terms have negative connotations.  And each person has both "conservative" and "liberal" notions.  No one is entirely anything.


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## little_nikki_99 (Jun 19, 2010)

I guess Im a liberal because Im very compassionate when I see people in sin because I see that Ive been there and done that and wish they would open their eyes, I just love them and be a part of there lives to an extent that doesnt comprise my christianity


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## luthiengirlie (Jun 20, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> How do you decided whether or not you are a Conservative Christian or a Liberal Christian?  Is it certain issues (like abortion, homosexual marriage, etc.) or does it depend on your perception on certain sins in the Bible? Whatever it is, explain why you are a Conservative Christian or a Liberal Christian. Thanks in advance.



I'm conservative. May be even leaning towards Messianic Christian. I don't club, I drink occasionly, no drugs, sex till marriage. But I strive to understand and obey His Word, even going back to the Hebrew.   I do not claim myself as perfect. I just wanna learn. I admit a part of things are confusing as being Under the law of the old vs new convenant. But that's another thread. I just do not want to be decieved and hear YHWH say depart from me. I neva knew ya lady. You're medium rare, go and be thou burned. Yanno. So. I am asking YHWH and seeking and knocking. I want to serve Him the way He desires to be served not what the world states.  So yes I'm messianic.


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## nathansgirl1908 (Jun 20, 2010)

little_nikki_99 said:


> I guess Im a liberal because Im very compassionate when I see people in sin because I see that Ive been there and done that and wish they would open their eyes, I just love them and be a part of there lives to an extent that doesnt comprise my christianity


. I wouldn't consider that being liberal.  I think that EVERY Christian should have this attitude.   This is what God wants from us.  I just wish others would operate the same way.   It would make things so much better.


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## Sharpened (Jun 22, 2010)

Labels, labels, labels
Unnecessary markers
Man-made divisions
Called everything but a child of the Most High
Or the temple in which the Holy Spirit dwells!


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## Poohbear (Jun 22, 2010)

luthiengirlie said:


> I'm conservative. May be even leaning towards Messianic Christian. I don't club, I drink occasionly, no drugs, sex till marriage. But I strive to understand and obey His Word, even going back to the Hebrew. I do not claim myself as perfect. I just wanna learn. I admit a part of things are confusing as being Under the law of the old vs new convenant. But that's another thread. I just do not want to be decieved and hear YHWH say depart from me. I neva knew ya lady. You're medium rare, go and be thou burned. Yanno. So. I am asking YHWH and seeking and knocking. I want to serve Him the way He desires to be served not what the world states. So yes I'm messianic.


What is a Messianic Christian?


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## luthiengirlie (Jun 22, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> What is a Messianic Christian?



A Christian who stick to the tenets of the Hebraic scriptures. They learn Hebrew and study the scriptures from that standpoint. Not Judaism but original scriptures


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## LovingLady (Jun 22, 2010)

luthiengirlie said:


> A Christian who stick to the tenets of the Hebraic scriptures. They learn Hebrew and study the scriptures from that standpoint. Not Judaism but original scriptures



I know this is off topic but are you able to speak Hebrew?


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## luthiengirlie (Jun 22, 2010)

Abdijz said:


> I know this is off topic but are you able to speak Hebrew?



No, I need to start learning. I am only just a baby in this. I asked YHWH to lead me deeper into His Word and this is what I was led to. I however was getting so many diffrent opinions coming at me that Adonai had to sit me down and say "Learn from me only and cover yourself with the blood of Yeshua". Yep. Just only a baby.


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## Guitarhero (Jun 22, 2010)

On the issues OP mentioned, I would consider myself orthodox.  I don't use the terms conservative or liberal.


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## Vonnieluvs08 (Jun 22, 2010)

I love God.  I've been washed in Jesus's blood and filled with the Holy Spirit.  I attend church for the learning, ministries, community.  I read His Word to learn more about Him and how to be like Him.

I too don't get down with labels and anything that is divisive. I am member of the Body of Christ!


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## Poohbear (Jun 23, 2010)

luthiengirlie said:


> A Christian who stick to the tenets of the Hebraic scriptures. They learn Hebrew and study the scriptures from that standpoint. Not Judaism but original scriptures


Thanks. So how do you know or determine the difference between original Hebraic scriptures and something else? What Bible version do you use?


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## luthiengirlie (Jun 23, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Thanks. So how do you know or determine the difference between original Hebraic scriptures and something else? What Bible version do you use?



You can get the Hebrew/English version of the Torah and the New Testament of the Tanak(I know I spelled dat wrong)  but I'm using Amplified until my Hebrew gets goin


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## Poohbear (Jun 23, 2010)

luthiengirlie said:


> You can get the Hebrew/English version of the Torah and the New Testament of the Tanak(I know I spelled dat wrong)  but I'm using Amplified until my Hebrew gets goin


 Another question .... is the Torah the hebrew version of the Old Testament and is the Tanak(sp?) the hebrew version of the New Testament?


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## luthiengirlie (Jun 23, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Another question .... is the Torah the hebrew version of the Old Testament and is the Tanak(sp?) the hebrew version of the New Testament?



In a sense yes. But the New Testament's original languages are Greek and Aramic. But they do have a NT translated into Hebrew. I havet gone that far yet.


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## Guitarhero (Jun 23, 2010)

luthiengirlie said:


> You can get the Hebrew/English version of the Torah and the New Testament of the Tanak(I know I spelled dat wrong)  but I'm using Amplified until my Hebrew gets goin




Um, the Tanakh doesn't contain the New Testament, that's christian. What exists is the Brit Hadashah (New Covenant).  It's for messianics and anybody else who would care to read it.  Just saying.....


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## Guitarhero (Jun 23, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Another question .... is the Torah the hebrew version of the Old Testament and is the Tanak(sp?) the hebrew version of the New Testament?



The Torah or the Chumash, is the first five books of the bible, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.  That's the Torah.  The Tanakh contains the Torah and the Prophets and the Writings.  It does not contain the christian "New Testament."  I'm sorry I'm being nitpicky...but it's a pet peeve of mine.  But I do understand what you all are saying.


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## luthiengirlie (Jun 23, 2010)

Natchitoches said:


> Um, the Tanakh doesn't contain the New Testament, that's christian. What exists is the Brit Hadashah (New Covenant). It's for messianics and anybody else who would care to read it. Just saying.....


 

ahh thank you SEE I'M STILL LEARNING
but yes i'm going into the Tanakh right now.. see I GOT TONS TO LEARN!


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## luthiengirlie (Jun 23, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Another question .... is the Torah the hebrew version of the Old Testament and is the Tanak(sp?) the hebrew version of the New Testament?


 

i AM reading the book of Enoch as well.


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## luthiengirlie (Jun 23, 2010)

Natchitoches said:


> The Torah or the Chumash, is the first five books of the bible, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. That's the Torah. The Tanakh contains the Torah and the Prophets and the Writings. It does not contain the christian "New Testament." I'm sorry I'm being nitpicky...but it's a pet peeve of mine. But I do understand what you all are saying.


 

Baruch Haba Shem


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