# Any liberal Christians here?



## Mena (Apr 13, 2013)

Cliff Notes Version: I want to be more spiritual. I need to go a liberal and tolerant Christian Church. Any advice?


Long Version: 

So, I am contemplating tip toeing into being more spiritual. I think it will be good for my spirit to heal from all the stuff that has happened to me in the last 10 years. And help me have a stronger belief in myself and all the things life throws at me. 

I find that if something doesn't go as planned. I easily get frazzled and quit. I didn't use to be like this. 

Also, I know what I want to accomplish with my career but sometimes I just have a hard time getting motivated. Can I really make a difference?  Do I care to make a difference? Am I really helping anyone? Then, i change my career goals to something else because I am not sure if I can do it. 

Then, I have these moments where I wonder why I am really here? What is my purpose? I used to have an unshakeable sense of purpose when I was younger. I wanted to be a doctor but I let people get to me and destroy my spirit. 

Looking back I was young now and shouldnt have let things gotten so bad. Anyways, I am ready to fix myself now. 

So, I am not from the South. I consider myself very politically and socially liberal. Born and raised on the west coast.  So, I need a brand of Christianity that is tolerant to other religions and cultures. 

I was raised Southern Baptist but it just doesn't sit well with me now. I see how it can work for someone like my mother thats from the South and has strong ties to her roots. However, I am not her. I grew up in a very multicultural place and I value and respect all religions. 

I never got a sense of tolerance from the Southern Baptist Church. 

Anyways, sorry this is long. Anyone have any advice for me and what direction I should take with my spirituality?

Thanks!


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## MrsHaseeb (Apr 13, 2013)

For the sake of clarification, what do you mean by liberal and tolerant?


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## Mena (Apr 13, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> For the sake of clarification, what do you mean by liberal and tolerant?



Tolerant of other denominations of Christianity and Other Religions as Well. 
I remember hearing a sermon when I used to church more regularly talking about people who were other religions and not Christians were going to straight to hell. Lol. Ever sense then I have slowly lost my faith. I am friends with good people from a variety of backgrounds. So, any brand of Christianity that doesn't really support multifaiths. I am not interested in. Hopefully that makes sense.


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## JaneBond007 (Apr 13, 2013)

I don't think your problem was intolerance regarding your career/personality from christians, it was low self-esteem.  Developing a personal relationship with Jesus can definitely help you see the love He has for you, over time.  But the central point of christianity/church is in developing that relationship with G-d first.  In knowing Him, we begin to understand what it is He wants us to do in this life towards His Kingdom.  He is central, not self. 

With that said, start attending churches.  You might wish to read up on specific ones online, about their doctrine, services etc. before attending. And I just read your last response.  Heaven is made possible through Jesus. As a catholic, we know that G-d is just and that those, who through no fault (rejection in full knowledge) of their own, live the truth, according to their training, to their best, can inherit heaven.  In other words, we don't believe people are condemned to hell because they never heard of Jesus.  G-d individually judges the heart.  

If I were you, I'd look online at the various denominations first, read their doctrine, then find individual church websites to look at and get a feel for, then attend services.  I wish you well in your journey.


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## Mena (Apr 13, 2013)

JaneBond007 said:


> *I don't think your problem was intolerance regarding your career/personality from christians, it was low self-esteem. * Developing a personal relationship with Jesus can definitely help you see the love He has for you, over time.  But the central point of christianity/church is in developing that relationship with G-d first.  In knowing Him, we begin to understand what it is He wants us to do in this life towards His Kingdom.  He is central, not self.
> 
> With that said, start attending churches.  You might wish to read up on specific ones online, about their doctrine, services etc. before attending.  As for tolerance, could you be more specific on that?



I know that. But if a pastor is preaching what I view as intolerance to other religions. Whatever else they say will be dead to me and I will have a hard time developing a relationship with God at that church.


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## JaneBond007 (Apr 13, 2013)

....I wish you well in your journey.


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## MrsHaseeb (Apr 13, 2013)

Mena said:


> Tolerant of other denominations of Christianity and Other Religions as Well.
> I remember hearing a sermon when I used to church more regularly talking about people who were other religions and not Christians were going to straight to hell. Lol. Ever sense then I have slowly lost my faith. I am friends with good people from a variety of backgrounds. So, any brand of Christianity that doesn't really support multifaiths. I am not interested in. Hopefully that makes sense.



Unfortunately, what you want is not real Christianity... Jesus Christ is the only way to God the Father. According to the Bible the true Gospel will be preached through all the world before the ends so no one will have an excuse to not accept Jesus Christ. As far as tolerance with other religions, no real Christian who believes the Bible will fit that category.

I will pray for you.


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## Shimmie (Apr 13, 2013)

Hi Mena...

I 'get' what you are saying.  I get it.   

Yet...

The most important thing in this life for you and all of us who are Christians is to follow Jesus and not man.  

Jesus loved everyone, no matter who they were, yet He remained faithful to God the Father whom He loved first.   

There were still behaviours and patterns of life that people were and are living that He could not and still cannot accept.   And He's not changing, just to be tolerant.    No matter how much we love someone, we can't sweep the sins of man under the rug.   We just can't, Dear One.   We can't. 

I have several Muslim, Jewish, and gay friends.   They KNOW beyond anything in this world that I love them... genuinely love them.   

What I've learned is to 'be still' when we're together, to just be still, enjoy our fellowship that we are sharing and allow God to 'use me' to speak from His heart to theirs.   I never pre-plan or rehearse what to say or do, I just simply allow God to be who He is and use me as He sees accordingly.  

Mena... I understand 'you'.   I don't see you as one who is seeking to rebel against God.   If anything more, I can see God using you as a Bridge to bring people to Him and not because of 'tolerance', but because you have chosen to yield to God's Will and Plan for the lives of others who do not 'yet' know Him.     

Remove the 'word' tolerance from your heart.   Remove it.   Instead allow 'obedience' unto the Lord, to be there instead.   'Tolerance' means, I want people to like me.  Yet we are turning our hearts away from God.

You can do it.   When you love the Lord, you want to please Him in all of your ways.   Humans change like the weather which is very unpredictable.   No matter who they are, what they do, whom / what they serve, Humans are not solid, due to the flesh and to unpredictable emotions.    

We cannot afford to place our loyalties upon 'tolerance', ignoring what one does, only God deserves our loyalties.   Only God.   Once we have established our hearts to be loyal unto Him and Him first and only, we will have the peace of pleasing God and obeying Him.

Remember when God told King Solomon 'not' to marry into a particular group of those who did not believe in Him and chose not God's ways?  He ignored God and 'tolerated' the other's sins and began to serve their gods.  

As Christians Jesus has called us to 'lead' others to Him, not away from Him and as Christians, we must follow His ways and not the ways of sin and eternal death.  

Why be a Christian if we don't intend to obey Him and follow His ways?   I promise you that this is not a harsh question; no shade or snark is in it.  I promise you.  

It's obvious that you do not wish to see your loved ones of other lifestyles/faiths to lose their lives in eternity with Jesus.   Which is why we cannot embrace the word 'tolerance'.   It's a dangerous death sentence.  It's been overplayed / overused by those who wish to have a lifestyle that they want excepted as normal, yet it is not.    Again,  no shade or snark or disrespect is being spoken.  

If nothing more, for you ... I can see God using you to use a different 'approach' to those outside of Christianity, and while being honest and forthright about righteousness, for the Truth of the Gospel cannot be hidden, for it is Light to those in darkness.  

God has _tolerated _all of the 'sin' He cares to and to end it, He sent Jesus to the Cross to pay the penalty for our sins.   He has set the standard and those are His guidelines and rules.   We must adhere to and to obey, for eternal life.   

Mena... this world is only getting more out of control.  The moral fiber and the level of sin 'tolerance' is without excuse.   God is not accepting 'tolerance' as our passport into Heaven.   It's His Heaven, His Rules, His Command unto all of us.   God is accepting obedience...   The gavel is down.   The Blood of Jesus has spoken.   

Much love to you Sweetheart...

And again... 'No shade' here.  

Shimmie


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## Leigh (Apr 13, 2013)

Mena said:


> Tolerant of other denominations of Christianity and Other Religions as Well.
> I remember hearing a sermon when I used to church more regularly talking about people who were other religions and not Christians were going to straight to hell. Lol. Ever sense then I have slowly lost my faith. I am friends with good people from a variety of backgrounds. So, any brand of Christianity that doesn't really support multifaiths. I am not interested in. Hopefully that makes sense.



True Christianity does not support multifaiths.  That concept goes against Christianity. 

True Christians do not judge those who are without the body.  We are told not too.  So if a non Christian is doing drugs, it's not our business.  If a fellow Christian is doing so, we are called to help.  This is righteous discernment/judgement.

So in that sense we tolerate other faiths but not support.  In other words, we don't encourage other faiths. But we don't bash them either.

1 Cor 5:12-13
For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth.


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## Mena (Apr 13, 2013)

Leigh said:


> True Christianity does not support multifaiths.  That concept goes against Christianity.
> 
> True Christians do not judge those who are without the body.  We are told not too.  So if a non Christian is doing drugs, it's not our business.  If a fellow Christian is doing so, we are called to help.  This is righteous discernment/judgement.
> 
> ...



This is fine. There are some churches that seem to faith bash though unfortunately. I will just have to go church hopping until I find something.


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## MrsHaseeb (Apr 13, 2013)

Mena said:


> This is fine. There are some churches that seem to faith bash though unfortunately. I will just have to go church hopping until I find something.



Mena .... Faith bashing is different from informing people and speaking the truth in love against these things. Jesus Christ and the Apostles frequently said He is the only way. There is nothing wrong with a preacher or teacher today doing the same. In fact, a real man of God is telling people Jesus is the only way... People's souls are at stake so we need to be more concerned with preaching the real Jesus and not the one people have made up. I'd rather someone hurt my feelings and tell me the truth rather than letting me die lost.


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## Dellas (Apr 13, 2013)

I am not sure what you mean by liberal but I have become less judgmental as I grew up. I grew up non denominational and mocked Baptist and Gospel music as being fleshly and not really spiritual.


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## MrsHaseeb (Apr 13, 2013)

Adel10 said:


> I am not sure what you mean by liberal but I have become less judgmental as I grew up. I grew up non denominational and mocked Baptist and Gospel music as being fleshly and not really spiritual.



I read the original comments and I feel you spoke a lot of truth. Either way, I think there is a huge difference between speaking/teaching the truth in love and making a mockery of others. Self righteous mocking is a no no.


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## Dellas (Apr 13, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> I read the original comments and I feel you spoke a lot of truth. Either way, I think there is a huge difference between speaking/teaching the truth in love and making a mockery of others. Self righteous mocking is a no no.



I took it down because sometimes I get too personal and specific and I have to remember I am online and stuff last forever!


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## Shimmie (Apr 13, 2013)

Adel10 said:


> I am not sure what you mean by liberal but I have become less judgmental as I grew up. I grew up non denominational and mocked Baptist and Gospel music as being fleshly and not really spiritual.



Hi  Adel10, I'm responding to your post before it was edited:   

I was disappointed also by Sandi Patti, Amy Grant and others, who fell.    

Yet, the other Worship groups (Integrity, Hossana Singers, and the individuals such as,  Brian Duncan, Ron Kenoly, Alvin Slaughter, Chris Tomlin, Michael W. Smith, and many others have remained true to the Faith of Jesus, they did not fall back.  They remained faithful and forward.   

To this day, they remain faithful and they have not compromised the teachings of God through Jesus, and they are not 'liberal' nor have they backpeddled by becoming PC or 'tolerant' which is actually sin.  

By being 'steadfast' in the Lord, they've paved the way for others to follow, who will continue to serve God and not give way to the pressures of this world to go lax in serving God.   

Something that each of us..and I do mean each of us.   We all have been given 'free will'.   God's Word is clear on what's His Will for us is.   Very Clear.    No matter who disappoints us, no matter what sin another commits, no matter how offended we may become or discouraged... the bottomline is that we still 'choose' our reactions to it.    

Therefore, if 'we' choose to disregard what Jesus calls us to do and seek 'another' faith just because someone doesn't represent it, in a way that does not offend us, we are still just as much in sin as they are who comitted the offense.   For 'both' the Offender and the Offended, have turned away from the Faith of Jesus Christ to find one of their own which fits their 'feelings'.   

God looks down and asks, "What did He do to deserve being 'blown off' just because of what someone else said or did."   He's not the one who said or did the offense.    The entire issue is not God's doing.    When we have a close relationship with God, it doesn't matter who offends us, we still contend for the faith and if nothing more, we choose to grow all the more closer to God than to go off seeking another god.  

We may not like the way someone portrays or misrepresents Jesus, however Jesus is not the one who is misrepresenting.   He still sits on the same throne with the same God in Heaven who sent Him to us.    He is not going to seek out a liberal or tolerant method of being God.   He remains the same, yesterday, today and forever. 

No matter who offends us, let us not offend God further by blaming it on Him.  And we do so by looking outside of him for another god that pleases our flesh and not save our souls.  

There is no other God.... 


Shared in Peace to all who read...


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## Shimmie (Apr 13, 2013)

Mena said:


> This is fine. There are some churches that seem to faith bash though unfortunately. I will just have to go church hopping until I find something.



When you mention the word 'bashing', is it really bashing or are they simply telling the Truth?   

Growing up, there were tons of things that I didn't like being told that it was 'wrong' to do.   It indeed felt like bashing.   Yet...my parents were only telling me the truth and in many unfortunate circumstances, I had to learn the hard way... I wanted to be 'liberal'.   Yet Liberal was taking me straight to hell and with no ticket back.  

The problem today is that sin is being pushed into society so strongly and it is demanding to be accepted as normal, when normal is far from the truth. 

Preachers have to get this point across to their congregations.   Too many folks are coming to Church with the intent of not 'changing' and feel that they can still do whatever it is that they want to do.    

God is trying to rescue them via these Preachers to come out of darkness and into the Light of Jesus' Christ.    But folks not only want to play games, but are misleading others to do the same....be liberal, be tolerant... all the way to hell.   

If a Preacher is telling the Truth, we cannot be offended.  No matter if we like the way he/she says it or not.  Iff they are telling the truth we have to accept it and allow God to change our hearts.     The Bible does not lie and the Bible does not sugar coat it messages to us.    

God's Word is straight forth, no chaser.   Koolaide wasn't made in Heaven and it's not being served in Green Pastures.   The Bible says that God's Rod (Correction) and His Staff (Guidance) comforts us... meaning He's leading us out of hell with firm correction and guidance, which is indeed a comfort to know we have been saved from an eternal flame. 

Run to Jesus.   Run into His loving arms and receive His undying love.   Be ready to 'learn of Him' and be ready to speak the truth to those who are perishing spiritually.    if you love them, you'll tell them the truth; that Jesus is the only way no matter what/who/why... Jesus is the only way and He is not changing to become PC or liberal or tolerant of any sin which separates them from God.


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## Dellas (Apr 14, 2013)

Shimmie said:


> Hi  Adel10, I'm responding to your post before it was edited:
> 
> I was disappointed also by Sandi Patti, Amy Grant and others, who fell.
> 
> ...



Hi

I think you might have read too much in that post or I read too much in yours
I am still a Christian but the only thing has changed is that I do not blindly follow people but focus more on having my own relationship with God 

Deleted the rest .. Overly wordy and not necessary

Have a good night Shimmie!


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## AtlantaJJ (Apr 15, 2013)

Shimmie said:


> When you mention the word 'bashing', is it really bashing or are they simply telling the Truth?
> 
> Growing up, there were tons of things that I didn't like being told that it was 'wrong' to do.   It indeed felt like bashing.   Yet...my parents were only telling me the truth and in many unfortunate circumstances, I had to learn the hard way... I wanted to be 'liberal'.   Yet Liberal was taking me straight to hell and with no ticket back.
> 
> ...



Shimmie I just had to personally Amen this because God saved me from liberalism and "new age" religion.  I am so grateful for His Rod and Staff I simply can not make it with out them.  I am grateful to be on the journey down the narrow path and through the narrow gate Praise God for His never ending Mercy!


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## Shimmie (Apr 15, 2013)

AtlantaJJ said:


> Shimmie I just had to personally Amen this because God saved me from liberalism and "new age" religion.  I am so grateful for His Rod and Staff I simply can not make it with out them.  I am grateful to be on the journey down the narrow path and through the narrow gate Praise God for His never ending Mercy!



AtlantaJJ ...  I'm right there with you.  I was a liberal mess and didn't realize just how dangerous it was and still is.  I was dangerous because other people were listening to me and following me and my liberal hell bound behind.  I was glass sliding on ice, straight to hell.  

*FACT: 
*

*There is no in-between or sugar substitutes for Jesus.  None!  The Liberals are poison to one's soul; it's a literal/actual death; the ultimate end to Life. * 

I understand those who don't want to 'hurt' others feelings.  God knows I do.   I understand the pain of losing a friend or a family member(s) because they were told that the life they are living is deadly.    I also know rebellion against God and how satan uses these feelings to hinder the Truth of God's love from being shared with those in darkness. 

I remember when my Mom torn my little legs up with a switch because I was running in the street.    Well a car was coming and she had already warned me time and again NOT to play in the street.   I disobeyed.   Did I like it when she scolded me?  NO indeed...   Did I like it when she spanked me?   Ummmm, triple No.    

However, when she reprimanded me it was out of love and also the fear of her losing me, her baby girl whom she carried for nine months and gave birth to.   She was protecting 'me', her baby.   She did not want to lose me and even if it meant using a switch to my legs, she did it to save and to protect me.   I'm here as living proof of her love. 

I realize it's sounds so harsh to tell someone that they are going to hell and that the life they are living that makes them happy is wrong, but it still has to be told.    Some folks are just plain hard-headed.   God called them a 'stiff-neck generation'.   They were unyielding to turn their hearts towards Him and obey.  

There are a lot of preachers that I do not like the delivery of their messages. To be honest, I don't like them all that much.   However, they are still telling the Truth, whether I like it or not.   Folks are not going to be saved by Liberals (those who sin what they want to sin and when they want to do it).  They are going to perish and lose eternal life.  

The best thing that I can give to anyone, is the love and the Truth of God.  If I truly care that much about them, I will continue to share the Truth, and nothing but....

Thanks AtlantaJJ...


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## Shimmie (Apr 15, 2013)

Adel10 said:


> Hi
> 
> I think you might have read too much in that post or I read too much in yours
> I am still a Christian but the only thing has changed is that I do not blindly follow people but focus more on having my own relationship with God
> ...



Adel10 ...

I understand and I apologize to you for 'reading too much' into your original post.


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## Dellas (Apr 15, 2013)

Shimmie said:


> Adel10 ...
> 
> I understand and I apologize to you for 'reading too much' into your original post.



Thanks and I apologize to you as well
I am not a liberal Christian 
Not a New age Christian
Unless non denominational has become a new age religion 

I will leave and say one more thing : don't follow personalities or make people your God
If you believe in the bible then read and form a relationship with your God


God may use people but they are not deities 
Pat Robertson, Joel Osteen, and even my beloved Joyce M can get things wrong when they operate by their opinions and get off the word 

Thank God for his grace in our ignorance. No one knows all and sees all.
I still don't know what new age or tolerate Christian is about?

If you are talking about respecting other people and being able to sit down and break bread with anyone as Jesus did then that is me

If you are talking about equating all religions as the same then that is not me. I respect people right to freely choose but I have chosen or have been chosen 

Thanks for entertaining my words in this forum
I need to go back to another forum 
I wish everyone the best and be blessed

I may have stepped into something that I didn't fully grasp what was being discussed and for that I owe everyone an apology for not properly reading before responding


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## Shimmie (Apr 15, 2013)

Adel10 said:


> Thanks and I apologize to you as well
> I am not a liberal Christian
> Not a New age Christian
> Unless non denominational has become a new age religion
> ...



You shared Beautifully  Adel10.... and this is sincerely meant.   

I receive all that you've shared as not only wisdom,  but a lesson learned.  

I wish you blessings above blessings and always, always, you shall be surrounded with love and peace.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Apr 16, 2013)

@Adel10

the bolded made me smile, because I have 'chosen to be chosen'.



Adel10 said:


> Thanks and I apologize to you as well
> I am not a liberal Christian
> Not a New age Christian
> Unless non denominational has become a new age religion
> ...


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## divya (Apr 18, 2013)

Bless your heart Mena...



Mena said:


> Tolerant of other denominations of Christianity and Other Religions as Well. I remember hearing a sermon when I used to church more regularly talking about people who were other religions and not Christians were going to straight to hell. Lol. Ever sense then I have slowly lost my faith. I am friends with good people from a variety of backgrounds. So, any brand of Christianity that doesn't really support multifaiths. I am not interested in. Hopefully that makes sense.



This is understandable to me, especially coming from a family that currently has or has had people within almost every major religion on the globe. Growing up, that was naturally a question of mine to which the response was that people are to "live by the amount of light that they have been given." Christ is the Light of the world. We are to accept Christ but who are we to say how much of the Light (Christ) that people will receive. Whatever given, that is what we musr accept and believe.

I understand Romans 2 particular verses 12-15 to support the above...as well as other verses.

The majority that I have encountered within the branch of Christianity I belong accept this but cannot speak for everyone. There is, however, a general understanding that the investigative judgment of each person is a serious matter, and one for God alone. We are simply to walk in the light we are given and be a witness to others. "To whom much is given, much is required." Luke 12:48.

My prayers are with you in your search. Feel free to PM me anytime.


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## MrsHaseeb (Apr 18, 2013)

Romans 2:12-15 is talking about Gentile BELIEVERS, not heathen. The Word tells us the Gospel will be preached in all the world. No one will have an excuse to not accept Jesus Christ. And per Romans 10:9-10 in order to be saved one must confess Jesus Christ with their mouth and believe in their heart unto righteousness. Ephesians 2 tells us we are all by nature enemies of God so there is no way for someone to be righteous without Jesus Christ. He is the justifier, the one who makes people righteous. There is no righteousness outside of him.

These all inclusive works based beliefs are dangerous. We are saved by grace through faith. Grace came by Jesus only. If a person rejects Jesus the Christ there is no salvation. If there is then it makes Jesus Christ a liar. I, however, choose to believe what is plainly stated in the Word and not what I think... People need truth, otherwise they are in bondage to false religious systems that tell you being good (works) can save you.


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## divya (Apr 18, 2013)

I do not share the same perspective regarding Romans 2 due to the belief that the law (moral) will not pass away until heaven & earth pass away - providing a different understanding of the passages. Matthew 5:17-18. I believe that those verses deal with those who do not have the same exposure to truth yet believe based God speaking to their minds and hearts.

It is true that no one will have an excuse not to have accepted Jesus Christ but how much of Jesus is revealed to them is up to God alone.

This is absolutely not about works-based salvation, as all are saved by the grace of our Lord. However, how we live is evidence of our acceptance of Jesus Christ, whatever measure of His truth has been revealed to us.

*Colossians 2:6* - As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him...

*James 2:17-20*
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


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## MrsHaseeb (Apr 18, 2013)

divya said:


> I do not share the same perspective regarding Romans 2 due to the belief that the law (moral) will not pass away until heaven & earth pass away. Matthew 5:17-18.
> 
> It is true that no one will have an excuse not to have accepted Jesus Christ but how much of Jesus is revealed to them is up to God alone.
> 
> ...



I dont read your perspective anywhere in Scripture. The verses you quote are all written to believers so I'm not getting how the above verses are to be applied to the whole world.... The entire new testament was written to the saints, not the world. You're calling God's Word a lie to suit your own views. That's fine, you won't get an argument out of me. Good day to you


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## divya (Apr 18, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> I dont read your perspective anywhere in Scripture. The verses you quote are all written to believers so I'm not getting how the above verses are to be applied to the whole world.... The entire new testament was written to the saints, not the world. You're calling God's Word a lie to suit your own views. That's fine, you won't get an argument out of me. Good day to you



Nothing in your post above addresses the Scriptures provided in my post. You may not come to that understanding,but I do, along with a number of sisters and brothers in Christ. It's fine if you disagree, but such beliefs are rooted in Scripture. No lie in it. Further, the Holy Scripture -Old and New Testament - are written to the world so that all people may have a greater knowledge of Christ. People come to Christ by studying the Word. So how can anyone say that the New Testament is written to the saints and not the world?


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## MrsHaseeb (Apr 18, 2013)

divya said:


> Nothing in your post above addresses the Scriptures provided in my post. You may not come to that understanding,but I do, along with a number of sisters and brothers in Christ. It's fine if you disagree, but such beliefs are rooted in Scripture. No lie in it. Further, the Holy Scripture -Old and New Testament - are written to the world so that all people may have a greater knowledge of Christ. People come to Christ by studying the Word. So how can anyone say that the New Testament is written to the saints and not the world?



Scripture was written to the saints, for they are discerned only by the Spirit. All of Paul's letters were addressed to the saints, not the world. God is not interested in the world getting to know him. The world must first repent and believe the Gospel, draw nigh unto Him then He will draw nigh unto them. If no one needs Jesus to get to heaven then our Savior died in vain. The truth is in Jesus only, there is no truth outside of Him. Scripture can be twisted to say what anyone wants it to say but it never contradicts. If Christ says He is the only way, why would Paul tell the Roman believers He is not. That makes no sense. The idea of a liberal church where all faiths are valid is an Antichrist institution, period. It needs to be said. People need the truth of God. Without it, a person is bondage whether they are aware or not.


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## divya (Apr 18, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> Scripture was written to the saints, for they are discerned only by the Spirit. God is not interested in the world getting to know him. The world must first repent and believe the Gospel, draw nigh unto Him then He will draw nigh unto them. If no one needs Jesus to get to heaven then our Savior died in vain. The truth is in Jesus only, there is no truth outside of Him. Scripture can be twisted to say what anyone wants it to say but it never contradicts. If Christ says He is the only way, why would Paul tell the Roman believers He is not. That makes no sense. The idea of a liberal church where all faiths are valid is an Antichrist institution, period. It needs to be said. People need the truth of God. Without it, a person is bondage whether they are aware or not.



*Matthew 28:19* Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

God sends us to take the gospel message to the world in order that they may draw near to Him.

Who said no one needs Jesus to get to heaven? 

Who said Christ is not the only way?

I do not deal with those liberal or conservative labels. 

Who said all faiths are valid? 

I respectfully ask that you do not make assumptions about the beliefs of others.


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## MrsHaseeb (Apr 18, 2013)

divya said:


> Who said no one needs Jesus to get to heaven?
> 
> Who said Christ is not the only way?
> 
> ...



I am not being argumentative here and I apologize if you feel I've made assumptions about you. However, tolerance is essentially denial of Jesus Christ.


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## divya (Apr 18, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> I am not being argumentative here and I apologize if you feel I've made assumptions about you. However, tolerance is essentially denial of Jesus Christ.



Well, nothing in my posts spoke about tolerance purposely because people understand such words differently. What is your definition of "tolerance?"


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## JaneBond007 (Apr 18, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> Scripture was written to the saints, for they are discerned only by the Spirit. All of Paul's letters were addressed to the saints, not the world. *God is not interested in the world getting to know him.* The world must first repent and believe the Gospel, draw nigh unto Him then He will draw nigh unto them. If no one needs Jesus to get to heaven then our Savior died in vain. The truth is in Jesus only, there is no truth outside of Him. Scripture can be twisted to say what anyone wants it to say but it never contradicts. If Christ says He is the only way, why would Paul tell the Roman believers He is not. That makes no sense. The idea of a liberal church where all faiths are valid is an Antichrist institution, period. It needs to be said. People need the truth of God. Without it, a person is bondage whether they are aware or not.




I'm confused by this.  Some people are born into christian families and their infants receive the sacraments of baptism. The parents and g-dparents have the responsibility of raising the child in the faith.  But what about those who don't receive infant baptism?  What if their tradition is to come to Christ at the age of accountability, say, around 12?  Was G-d unconcerned with those children in a christian family until they acknowledged Him?  How do people know G-d more intimately without learning scripture?  

I can think of Israel where some worshipped idols while Moses was up in the holy mountain receiving the Torah.  Yet, when Moses came down to give it to Israel, there were those who obeyed G-d and there were those who didn't.  Even today, there are people in the church, as you will, who don't know Christ but the doors are open to them.  How will they find Him if He's not speaking to them through scripture?  Even if they open their eyes to Christ through the actions of a faithful believer, it was obeying scripture that provided that means to see Christ in another.  Somebody _was_ scripture to that person.  Christ _is_ the Word.  He came for the sick, not the well.   I would think the gospels as edification for believers in the early church going through many changing and violent times.


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## MrsHaseeb (Apr 18, 2013)

JaneBond007 said:


> I'm confused by this.  Some people are born into christian families and their infants receive the sacraments of baptism. The parents and g-dparents have the responsibility of raising the child in the faith.  But what about those who don't receive infant baptism?  What if their tradition is to come to Christ at the age of accountability, say, around 12?  Was G-d unconcerned with those children in a christian family until they acknowledged Him?  How do people know G-d more intimately without learning scripture?
> 
> I can think of Israel where some worshipped idols while Moses was up in the holy mountain receiving the Torah.  Yet, when Moses came down to give it to Israel, there were those who obeyed G-d and there were those who didn't.  Even today, there are people in the church, as you will, who don't know Christ but the doors are open to them.  How will they find Him if He's not speaking to them through scripture?  Even if they open their eyes to Christ through the actions of a faithful believer, it was obeying scripture that provided that means to see Christ in another.  Somebody was scripture to that person.  Christ is the Word.  He came for the sick, not the well.



Hi. I am not sure if I should address this... I am not Catholic so I don't particularly agree with infant baptism or a tradition that says come to Christ around the age of accountability. I'm aware that you're Catholic and that's what you believe but I am not interested in the thread getting any uglier and it will if I elaborate. I'm done here.


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## JaneBond007 (Apr 18, 2013)

I wasn't trying to contribute to any ugliness...I was asking you to expound on the  emboldened.  I can comprehend your viewpoint if you elaborate on it.  I'm wondering why you say that scripture is only for the saints and not those outside knowledge of Him.  The baptism was an example of how that wouldn't apply.  In other words, is G-d unconcerned with even a small child until he acknowledges Christ?  The age of accountability refers to when someone is conscious of such a decision, which is every other tradition outside infant baptism, even within catholicism, because not everyone is a cradle catholic.  Even there are people born to catholics who were never baptized until later in life.  So, if you don't select to come to Christ, how do you get to Him for the scripture to apply ever to you?  That's what I'm not comprehending.


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## MrsHaseeb (Apr 18, 2013)

divya said:


> Well, nothing in my posts spoke about tolerance purposely because people understand such words differently. What is your definition of "tolerance?"



I apologize if I am misunderstanding you. Tolerance to me is the idea of peacefully coexisting with other religions and tolerating their gods and religious beliefs without preaching Christ as the only way. Tolerance to me is also the belief that those outside if Christ who never accepted Him can be saved. Even the thief on the cross accepted Christ, despite it being in the last moments of his life. He recognized Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God, had a moment of repentance and became a believer. I hope this clarifies what I meant and I do again apologize if I misunderstood you.


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## divya (Apr 18, 2013)

*1 Tim 2:1-4*
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


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## MrsHaseeb (Apr 18, 2013)

JaneBond007 said:


> I wasn't trying to contribute to any ugliness...I was asking you to expound on the  emboldened.  I can comprehend your viewpoint if you elaborate on it.  I'm wondering why you say that scripture is only for the saints and not those outside knowledge of Him.  The baptism was an example of how that wouldn't apply.  In other words, is G-d unconcerned with even a small child until he acknowledges Christ?  The age of accountability refers to when someone is conscious of such a decision, which is every other tradition outside infant baptism, even within catholicism, because not everyone is a cradle catholic.  Even there are people born to catholics who were never baptized until later in life.  So, if you don't select to come to Christ, how do you get to Him for the scripture to apply ever to you?  That's what I'm not comprehending.



Well... I don't believe in infant baptism or in traditions that simply force a person to do religious duties once they reach the age of accountability. Based on scripture, baptism is to follow repentance usually (although God can do what He wants because He is God) per Acts 2:38. What I'm saying is, Paul's letters were addressed to the saints. Scripture is interpreted or discerned by the Spirit so how can the world interpret it? The world needs the cross preached to them by the messengers of God in order to make the choice to come to Jesus. Repentance is a work of God, so if he begins moving on a person to bring them to repentance and he leads them to the Bible he can teach them as well. However, I don't see where being born into a religion makes you apart of the body of Christ in Scripture. Becoming apart of the body of Christ happens by being born from above by the Spirit. By one Spirit are we baptized into one body... I'm referring to 1 Cor 12, not sure of the Verse as I can't look. This was not to be contentious, just explaining what I meant.


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## divya (Apr 18, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> I apologize if I am misunderstanding you. Tolerance to me is the idea of peacefully coexisting with other religions and tolerating their gods and religious beliefs without preaching Christ as the only way. Tolerance to me is also the belief that those outside if Christ who never accepted Him can be saved. Even the thief on the cross accepted Christ, despite it being in the last moments of his life. He recognized Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God, had a moment of repentance and became a believer. I hope this clarifies what I meant and I do again apologize if I misunderstood you.



It's alright. My posts could likely stand to be clearer but trying to work at the same time.

Ok, well I do believe that we should peacefully coexist with others, despite religious differences. BUT we should always adhere to "thus saith the Lord." Yes, Christ is the only way because it is only through Him that we are saved. I simply do not the believe that an individual is automatically excluded from salvation because their level or method of acceptance of Jesus Christ is not what some may consider the exclusive forms/methods. Other faiths are not automatically going to heaven either. Just like not all who profess Christianity will make it.

Understand your stance though...


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## MrsHaseeb (Apr 18, 2013)

divya said:


> 1 Tim 2:1-4
> 1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
> 
> 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
> ...



I agree with this. Jesus is the truth. So no way to come to the knowledge of the truth without coming to Jesus


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## MrsHaseeb (Apr 18, 2013)

divya said:


> It's alright. My posts could likely stand to be clearer but trying to work at the same time.
> 
> Ok, well I do believe that we should peacefully coexist with others, despite religious differences. BUT we should always adhere to "thus saith the Lord." Yes, Christ is the only way because it is only through Him that we are saved. I simply do not the believe that an individual is automatically excluded from salvation because their level or method of acceptance of Jesus Christ is not what some may consider the exclusive forms/methods. Other faiths are not automatically going to heaven either. Just like not all who profess Christianity will make it.
> 
> Understand your stance though...



And I dont believe that we need to force people to accept Jesus, for further clarification


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## JaneBond007 (Apr 18, 2013)

What do you think of the following article:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?id=1187

Brought to you with permission of Don Stewart, the Bible Explorer​    	To Whom Was the Bible Written?                                                                                                                                                                             
 	 	 		The appeal of the Bible is universal - addressed to all humanity.  It is a book that everyone can understand. The Bible says that when  Jesus spoke, "the common people heard him gladly" (Mark 12:37). The multitudes listened and followed Him. Jesus encouraged the children to be brought to Him.
Let the little children come to me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 19:14).​ *Scripture Has Universal Application*
 While  certain parts of the Scripture are written to individuals and specific  groups, even these have both special and universal application. All  Scripture is beneficial.
All Scripture is  God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and  training in righteousness, so that everyone who belongs to God may be  proficient, equipped for every good work (2 Timothy 3:16,17).​ *It Is Written In Everyday Language*
 One  way that we know the Bible was written for everyone is the language in  which it was composed. As recently as one hundred years ago, we did not  possess any Greek writings that were contemporary with the New  Testament. The Greek of the New Testament was different from the  classical Greek of Plato and Sophocles. Most scholars speculated that it  was some special kind of "Holy Ghost" language – not the ordinary  speech of that day.
 This all changed at the end of the nineteenth  century. In a garbage dump in Egypt the discovery was made of the  letters, contracts, receipts, etc. of ordinary people who lived at the  same time as Jesus. It became clear from these writings that the New  Testament was written in the same common, everyday language of the  people, not some special language. This reinforces the idea that the  Bible was written to the masses, not just to an elite few.
*The Bible Is An Understandable Book*
 The  Bible has been written in such a way that everyone can understand it.  This, of course, does not mean that everyone will understand it or that  any one person will understand everything in it. Neither does it mean  that a person will understand it the first time they read it. The more  one reads, and studies the Bible, the more it will be understood.
*Everyone Is Held Responsible To Obey Its Teachings*
 Scripture  assumes its message is clear because everyone is held responsible to  respond to it. The Bible claims to have universal authority over all  people everywhere. There are only two categories of people according to  the Bible, believers and unbelievers. The New Testament says.
The  one who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and the one who does  not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on  that person (John 3:36).​ *The fact that the Bible separates humanity into these two categories is another indication that all * people are held responsible to believe its message.
*Summary*
 The  evidence demonstrates that the Bible was written to every human being,  not to just a select few. We now understand the language of the New  Testament was the common written and spoken language of the time. The  Bible was not written in some special holy language to meet the needs of  a few. Scripture has been composed in such a way as to be  understandable to the masses. Furthermore, God will hold everyone  responsible as to how they receive His Word. This is another indication  that the Bible was written with everyone in mind. Therefore every person  needs to pay close attention to its message.


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## MrsHaseeb (Apr 18, 2013)

JaneBond007 said:


> What do you think of the following article:
> 
> http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?id=1187
> 
> ...



I don't think anything of the article. A child can consciously decide to accept Jesus and no one should forbid a child from doing so. I'm talking about specifically having a doctrine that children born into the religion are to be baptized as infants and come to Christ at a certain age. A person can go through the motions but yet their hearts are far from Jesus. Coming to Christ is an inner work, a listening to the voice of God within and no age is exempt from it. Samuel was dedicated from the womb and served in the temple from his youth so I'm not saying anything is wrong with those things. Levitical priests were also born into the priesthood so again... I'm not against children being born and raised and taught the ways of the Lord.

As far as scripture... Its not a universal message and everyone cannot understand it. This is why Jesus spoke in parables, and why the Scripture says things of God are discerned by the Spirit. This is why Jesus in John 17 only prayed for those given to him by God. The Verse posted from Timothy says those who "belong to God", not the world. While all souls belong to God since he is the creator, those who he reveals himself to are those born from above, in the world, not of the world.

To end, I want everyone to cone to repentance and be saved just as does God. But my head is not in the.clouds and I know that won't happen. Scripture doesn't lie. All I can do though is get on my face before God and pray for mercy and grace for me and those who will choose Jesus. My choice is to live for Jesus, not out of compulsion, but because I choose to and because I love Him. That's the best I can tell you.


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## JaneBond007 (Apr 18, 2013)

You're focusing on baptism...I'm not focusing on baptism but only used it as one example.   The article is not talking of baptism...but who the bible was made for.  It's just a general question with some scripture provided.  I'd never quite heard the opinion that scripture is only for believers.  

I'll provide the scripture cited:

2Ti 3:16 	  	

All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: .


And maybe, this should be continued for anybody interested in another thread...didn't mean to derail the op's thread.


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## MrsHaseeb (Apr 18, 2013)

JaneBond007 said:


> You're focusing on baptism...I'm not focusing on baptism but only used it as one example.   The article is not talking of baptism...but who the bible was made for.  It's just a general question with some scripture provided.  I'd never quite heard the opinion that scripture is only for believers.
> 
> I'll provide the scripture cited:
> 
> ...



JaneBond007 I was using baptism as an example, I apologize if it seemed as though I was attacking or focusing on one thing. That wasn't my intention. As far as Scripture being only for believers, isn't that who it was addressed to from the beginning? The only message the world needs is REPENT. How else does the Bible apply to the world? It is to teach us how to live once we have repented. 

Not looking to further discuss. I don't see the point.

Apologies to OP for derailing the thread as well.


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## Laela (Apr 19, 2013)

Well if a pastor/ spiritual leader is relying solely on God's Word and the Holy Ghost to teach, I don't see how that is intolerance. It's straight Word, that could be an offense to the hearer only IF it's not delivered in love. God is a jealous God and we learn to hate what He hates.

From my pov, there really is a difference between (a) rejecting what others believe because of what we already believe, and(b) enforcing/imposing one's beliefs onto others.


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## Leigh (Apr 19, 2013)

divya said:


> It's alright. My posts could likely stand to be clearer but trying to work at the same time.
> 
> Ok, well I do believe that we should peacefully coexist with others, despite religious differences. BUT we should always adhere to "thus saith the Lord." Yes, Christ is the only way because it is only through Him that we are saved. I simply do not the believe that an individual is automatically excluded from salvation because their level or method of acceptance of Jesus Christ is not what some may consider the exclusive forms/methods. Other faiths are not automatically going to heaven either. Just like not all who profess Christianity will make it.
> 
> Understand your stance though...



Yes, we are to live peaceably with all men.

Rom 12:18
If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

However, there is only one way.

John 14:6-7
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also:and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.


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## divya (Apr 20, 2013)

Leigh said:


> Yes, we are to live peaceably with all men.
> 
> Rom 12:18
> If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
> ...



Absolutely! And once again, how much of Jesus Christ an individual knows or rather has been exposed to and must therefore accept, the Lord alone knows. But it is through acceptance of Him, no matter how limited their exposure, that they receive salvation...


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## Leigh (Apr 20, 2013)

divya said:


> Absolutely! And once again, how much of Jesus Christ an individual knows or rather has been exposed to and must therefore accept, the Lord alone knows. But it is through acceptance of Him, no matter how limited their exposure, that they receive salvation...



Actually, it's deeper.  Not everyone who says Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Ecclesiastes 12:13
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

Gods commandments , whatever they happen to be, will get us into the pearly gates. We can go more in depth discussing this but in the end we can't lean unto our own understanding.  We have to follow the directives given to us.

His ways are higher than our ways.

Isaiah 55:8-9
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Proverbs 3:1-6
 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:
 For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.
 Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:
 So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.
 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Either we will follow God or follow our own selves, which way do you believe is best...?


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## JaneBond007 (Apr 20, 2013)

Heaven was opened by Jesus...that's heaven made accessible via Jesus.  If someone didn't know Him on earth and they lived the truth and goodness to the best of their ability (G-d knows the heart), maybe their beatific vision in heaven differs.  Shrugs.  The more abundant life on earth through Christ is truly a spiritual blessing and I believer there are levels of that.


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## Leigh (Apr 20, 2013)

JaneBond007 said:


> Heaven was opened by Jesus...that's heaven made accessible via Jesus.  If someone didn't know Him on earth and they lived the truth and goodness to the best of their ability (G-d knows the heart), maybe their beatific vision in heaven differs.  Shrugs.  The more abundant life on earth through Christ is truly a spiritual blessing and I believer there are levels of that.



Jesus says differently.  There is a specific way to get to heaven and works is not the way.  We are saved by grace.  We must obey God.  We must do His will and not lean unto our own understanding.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Matt 7:21-23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


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## Galadriel (Apr 20, 2013)

Leigh said:


> Jesus says differently.  There is a specific way to get to heaven and works is not the way.  We are saved by grace.  We must obey God.  We must do His will and not lean unto our own understanding.
> 
> John 14:6
> Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
> ...




JB (like me) believes that it is possible for invincibly ignorant persons to be saved, but it is all still through Christ's grace and His merits. Invincible ignorance is when a person through no fault of his or her own, has not known or understood the message of the Gospel. 

I would also include in this category the severely mentally disabled, aborted fetuses, infants and very young children who die. They obviously have not heard the Gospel or were able to be baptized, so what happens to their souls?

I agree that we do not merit grace or our salvation. We are saved by faith through grace, and it is a free gift (so I think it makes sense that this free gift, in God's mercy can be applied to the invincibly ignorant) however Scripture makes it clear that when we reject God's grace or turn away (mortal sin), we bring condemnation on ourselves.

Even the invincibly ignorant adult (one in full possession of his reason or mental faculties) must cooperate with God's grace in his life in whatever way God is drawing him. Scripture tells us that God has written certain laws on our hearts, and there are things that we know by nature are good or evil. So even someone in an invincibly ignorant situation may not have heard of the Church, or the Bible, etc. but to the extent that he adheres to objective morality and cooperates with God's grace, it is possible to be saved. But I reiterate, this is all through Christ's merits through the Cross and His grace--not apart from them.


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## JaneBond007 (Apr 20, 2013)

^^^That was one of the sinkers for me to come into the Church.  Without an understanding that others outside make it, I would have no true belief in the Church.  It's not that G-d  can't do what He wants, but that it would be plainly unfair.  He is never unjust and He's very gracious and giving, obviously.  What I cannot palate is the mentality that almost delights in being the supposed "elect" at the near negligent concern for those outside, almost as though people want others to die.  But what if...what if....

That ought make every believer incredibly humbled and appreciative that they have the abundant life while on earth.  You wrack up more graces.  I think this is a lot of what OP Mena was alluding to, among others.  I have to remember the words of Father, "the L-rd opens up the doors of the Church to all, believers and unbelievers."  It's a starting point, no?  Ultimately,  the knowledge of Christ and understanding leading to belief is the work of the H-ly Spirit and acceptance past that point is up to the individual.  But that doesn't preclude those who have no such exposure, knowledge nor comprehension.  Thank Gd that law is written upon the hearts of all men.  How could He condemn us if it weren't?  Shrugs.  Still possible, but that's not what He's done.


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## Leigh (Apr 20, 2013)

JaneBond007 said:


> ^^^That was one of the sinkers for me to come into the Church.  Without an understanding that others outside make it, I would have no true belief in the Church.  It's not that G-d  can't do what He wants, but that it would be plainly unfair.  He is never unjust and He's very gracious and giving, obviously.  What I cannot palate is the mentality that almost delights in being the supposed "elect" at the near negligent concern for those outside, almost as though people want others to die.  But what if...what if....
> 
> That ought make every believer incredibly humbled and appreciative that they have the abundant life while on earth.  You wrack up more graces.  I think this is a lot of what OP Mena was alluding to, among others.  I have to remember the words of Father, "the L-rd opens up the doors of the Church to all, believers and unbelievers."  It's a starting point, no?  Ultimately,  the knowledge of Christ and understanding leading to belief is the work of the H-ly Spirit and acceptance past that point is up to the individual.  But that doesn't preclude those who have no such exposure, knowledge nor comprehension.  Thank Gd that law is written upon the hearts of all men.  How could He condemn us if it weren't?  Shrugs.  Still possible, but that's not what He's done.



God will always make a way.  God gives free will.  God is the one who knows the heart and call those who are His to him.

God gives the increase, therefore, seeds can be planted, weeded, pruned, and watered.  But in the end, it is up to Him.  And while He doesn't want anyone to perish, He knows some are not His.


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## divya (Apr 21, 2013)

Leigh said:


> Actually, it's deeper.  Not everyone who says Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven.
> 
> Matthew 7:21
> Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
> ...



Yes, I completely agree...and Romans 2 speaks to this. It is deeper and no one knows the exposure of each person accept God Himself. As stated earlier, the investigative judgment of the Lord is very serious.


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## divya (Apr 21, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> JB (like me) believes that it is possible for invincibly ignorant persons to be saved, but it is all still through Christ's grace and His merits. Invincible ignorance is when a person through no fault of his or her own, has not known or understood the message of the Gospel.
> 
> I would also include in this category the severely mentally disabled, aborted fetuses, infants and very young children who die. They obviously have not heard the Gospel or were able to be baptized, so what happens to their souls?
> 
> ...



Amen and amen. You said better than I could put it.


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## ellebelle88 (Apr 21, 2013)

Mena I know exactly what you mean when you say you want to be a Christian but a liberal and tolerant one. Most Christianity does not teach you to be respectful or tolerant of others. For me, that's not coming from a place of love. Who am I to judge others? That's for God to do. As a Christian, I'm supposed to obey the 10 commandments, pray, repent, and treat others like I would like to be treated. Meaning: love thy neighbors. 

Most churches I go to are sexist, homophobic, and demean other religions. Craziness. I read through some of the discussions being had in this thread and on the Christianity forum and often shake my head. I don't respond because it wouldn't be coming from a place of love and sometimes, its just not worth the argument.

I can tell you how I've started to live and you can decide what you want to keep or listen to: God is love. Which means that you were made in the image of God, so there is something supreme and godly about you. Whatever you do, do it in Love and let that be your guiding principal. I've found a great church where I'm currently located and the pastor explains the Word, but very seldom does the preacher past judgment. Meditate. Listen. Pray and although its much easier said than done, seek to develop a relationship with the Supreme Being (who is not a MAN in Heaven! Much greater and more powerful than that). Have a personal relationship with God which doesn't rely upon others telling you what you should do or believe.

When things are rough and people try to tell me that it's not about me, but what God wants for me, I disagree. God gave us free-will. The things that are happening in my life that are causing me stress and turmoil is because I'm not operating from a place of love and like Karma, its coming back to me. It's a life learning lesson but its not because God didn't want me to have it or is putting me through some test.

Find a good church and don't let ANYONE tell you that you shouldn't be respectful and tolerant of others who have a different religion or sexual preference. Good comes in many different ways and many different forms. If it didn't, God wouldn't have made the world so diverse. 

Many blessings and much love.


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## ellebelle88 (Apr 21, 2013)

By the way, I hope that no one reads my post and attribute it to any New Age kind of thinking. I am from the south and was raised in the southern Baptist and Methodist churches.


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## disgtgyal (Apr 21, 2013)

ellebelle88 said:


> Mena I know exactly what you mean when you say you want to be a Christian but a liberal and tolerant one. Most Christianity does not teach you to be respectful or tolerant of others. For me, that's not coming from a place of love. Who am I to judge others? That's for God to do. As a Christian, I'm supposed to obey the 10 commandments, pray, repent, and treat others like I would like to be treated. Meaning: love thy neighbors.
> 
> Most churches I go to are sexist, homophobic, and demean other religions. Craziness. I read through some of the discussions being had in this thread and on the Christianity forum and often shake my head. I don't respond because it wouldn't be coming from a place of love and sometimes, its just not worth the argument.
> 
> ...



I agree with most of your post and I get where you're coming from. I frequent the Christian forum and although I'm sure a lot of the ladies may mean well in their discussion it often times comes off apathetic and Bible thumping. I think we as Christians forget that we are to bring sinners to repentance and you don't necessarily do so by quoting every verse from Genesis to Revelations, its by demonstrating Christ's love not by shoving the sinners prayer down their throat and then giving them a list of things they can't do (I've witnessed that way more times than I care to have) ... I too believe the most important thing is cultivating a relationship with God through Christ and with that comes direction, and peace and you are less likely to rely on pastor or Bishop when it comes to living right, because most of their do's and don'ts is based on what was socially acceptable for Christians of their generation, but if the focus was on developing a personal relationship with God then the holy spirit would convict you on the things that need to be changed. I agree that we should be tolerable and respectful of other religions, but I don't believe we should be accepting in the sense of embracing their beliefs. What I don't understand is why Christians get so much heat for being exclusive, our faith is based on Christ being the only way to salvation, what kind of Christians would we be if we say Christ is the way but not the only way... Just my thoughts...


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## ellebelle88 (Apr 21, 2013)

disgtgyal said:


> I agree with most of your post and I get where you're coming from. I frequent the Christian forum and although I'm sure a lot of the ladies may mean well in their discussion it often times comes off apathetic and Bible thumping. I think we as Christians forget that we are to bring sinners to repentance and you don't necessarily do so by quoting every verse from Genesis to Revelations, its by demonstrating Christ's love not by shoving the sinners prayer down their throat and then giving them a list of things they can't do (I've witnessed that way more times than I care to have) ... I too believe the most important thing is cultivating a relationship with God through Christ and with that comes direction, and peace and you are less likely to rely on pastor or Bishop when it comes to living right, because most of their do's and don'ts is based on what was socially acceptable for Christians of their generation, but if the focus was on developing a personal relationship with God then the holy spirit would convict you on the things that need to be changed. I* agree that we should be tolerable and respectful of other religions, but I don't believe we should be accepting in the sense of embracing their beliefs. *What I don't understand is why Christians get so much heat for being exclusive, our faith is based on Christ being the only way to salvation, what kind of Christians would we be if we say Christ is the way but not the only way... Just my thoughts...



To the bolded, being a Christian who is respectful of other religion and people's cultures and values does not mean accepting their beliefs. I am not sure how you arrived at that consensus. Respectful simply means not casting judgment or damning them to Hell simply because they don't follow Christianity.

One thing I didn't mention is that pastors and preachers are mere humans too and after reading that Juanita Bynum thread, many of them fall victim to some of the most egregious sins of the world. Our faith and trust should be in God. That's why its important for people to establish their own relationship with God rather than relying on people on forums or preachers telling them what they should do to be a good Christian.


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## disgtgyal (Apr 21, 2013)

ellebelle88 said:


> To the bolded, being a Christian who is respectful of other religion and people's cultures and values does not mean accepting their beliefs. I am not sure how you arrived at that consensus. Respectful simply means not casting judgment or damning them to Hell simply because they don't follow Christianity.
> 
> One thing I didn't mention is that pastors and preachers are mere humans too and after reading that Juanita Bynum thread, many of them fall victim to some of the most egregious sins of the world. Our faith and trust should be in God. That's why its important for people to establish their own relationship with God rather than relying on people on forums or preachers telling them what they should do to be a good Christian.



Well there are many Christians who believe by not speaking out against other religions we aren't preaching the gospel to the world, which is our commission, personally I disagree with speaking out against other religions because I feel more than anything else you're simply alienating ppl, however if you ask me my belief I will not shy away or try to be pc. I agree with you about pastors and preachers being humans, but the problem IMO is that some pastors elevate themselves above others by having an attitude of being closer to God than other Christians, thus you should listen to them, but when they fall they ask us to remember that they are humans, so to avoid that whole mess I look and treat them as humans who serve and hear from the same God, He doesn't love them anymore than He loves me.


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## ellebelle88 (Apr 21, 2013)

disgtgyal said:


> Well there are many Christians who believe by not speaking out against other religions we aren't preaching the gospel to the world, which is our commission, personally I disagree with speaking out against other religions because I feel more than anything else you're simply alienating ppl, however if you ask me my belief I will not shy away or try to be pc. I agree with you about pastors and preachers being humans, but the problem IMO is that some pastors elevate themselves above others by having an attitude of being closer to God than other Christians, thus you should listen to them, but when they fall they ask us to remember that they are humans, so to avoid that whole mess I look and treat them as humans who serve and hear from the same God, He doesn't love them anymore than He loves me.



Agreed. With the last part, especially. I also see no problem in you believing and thinking that Christianity is the only religion and the best religion. I don't think you should ever shy away from voicing your love of God through Christianity. I think for me the problem is the denouncing part. 

Like, if you were conversing with someone who is Muslim, you can have a convo with them saying that you don't believe there is any other religion other than the Christian Faith. I find it wrong to tell them they are going to Hell however, or to forbid a friendship with them because they don't practice your faith...I hope I'm making sense. I definitely see what you're saying about believing in your religion.


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## JaneBond007 (Apr 21, 2013)

People often don't know the difference between sharing the gospel, living it through quiet witness and forcibly proselytizing faith on others.


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## disgtgyal (Apr 22, 2013)

ellebelle88 said:


> Agreed. With the last part, especially. I also see no problem in you believing and thinking that Christianity is the only religion and the best religion. I don't think you should ever shy away from voicing your love of God through Christianity. I think for me the problem is the denouncing part.
> 
> Like, if you were conversing with someone who is Muslim, you can have a convo with them saying that you don't believe there is any other religion other than the Christian Faith. I find it wrong to tell them they are going to Hell however, or to forbid a friendship with them because they don't practice your faith...I hope I'm making sense. I definitely see what you're saying about believing in your religion.



I get what you're saying and I agree absolutely I don't believe in damning anyone because I know I would be very offended if someone of another faith damned me because I believe differently. I try to treat others the way I want to be treated and its why I believe church should not impose their views on state matters because what happens if say this country becomes mostly Islam, Christians wouldn't want Muslims imposing their beliefs on the country, but that's another topic. I do realize my "brand" of Christianity isn't popular and some Christians have even said I'm compromising but as look as I'm good with God I don't care.


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## disgtgyal (Apr 22, 2013)

JaneBond007 said:


> People often don't know the difference between sharing the gospel, living it through quiet witness and forcibly proselytizing faith on others.



This! I believe is witnessing by just living the way you should and believe it or not that converts more souls than lecturing, damning, and throwing scriptures at ppl. I've found its the most effective way of sharing the Gospel.


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## divya (Apr 22, 2013)

ellebelle88 said:


> * To the bolded, being a Christian who is respectful of other religion and people's cultures and values does not mean accepting their beliefs. I am not sure how you arrived at that consensus. Respectful simply means not casting judgment or damning them to Hell simply because they don't follow Christianity.*
> 
> One thing I didn't mention is that pastors and preachers are mere humans too and after reading that Juanita Bynum thread, many of them fall victim to some of the most egregious sins of the world. Our faith and trust should be in God. That's why its important for people to establish their own relationship with God rather than relying on people on forums or preachers telling them what they should do to be a good Christian.



Amen...and Jesus, who we are to follow, lived this approach daily...and look how many were drawn to the truth.


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## divya (Apr 22, 2013)

disgtgyal said:


> I get what you're saying and I agree absolutely I don't believe in damning anyone because I know I would be very offended if someone of another faith damned me because I believe differently. I try to treat others the way I want to be treated and its why I believe church should not impose their views on state matters because what happens if say this country becomes mostly Islam, Christians wouldn't want Muslims imposing their beliefs on the country, but that's another topic. I do realize my "brand" of Christianity isn't popular and some Christians have even said I'm compromising but as look as I'm good with God I don't care.



Completely agree...completely.


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## Galadriel (Apr 22, 2013)

I also dislike the approach some people use. I've been called (not here, but elsewhere) an idolatrous statue-worshipping pagan and told that I was damned to Hell. So I'm right there with you on the point that such vehemence and antagonism does nothing to draw people or build positive relationships with them.

With that said, I think it's important to distinguish between certain people's attitudes or style of communication...and truth & doctrine.

I believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, that Jesus Christ is God and that He established a Church 2,000 years ago so that it may be His instrument of salvation on earth (i.e., preaching the Gospel, baptizing, etc.). 

Because God Himself established Christianity, it must necessarily have His divine protection and the fullness of Truth above any other religion in the world. While other religions can have good morals and several aspects of truth, the *fullness* of truth resides in what Jesus Christ and His Apostles handed down to us.

When you say you want to find a church community that is welcoming, where you can exercise mercy and compassion with one another, including those outside your faith community--I'm right there with you. Scripture tells us that we are to seek peace with all men and conduct ourselves in holiness.

However, we can never make peace with sin or the power of sin.

Sin destroys our relationship with God and distorts our relationships with other people. When a church teaches for example, that homosexual acts are sinful, it is not out of hate or intolerance, but rather because God has declared that these acts are sinful and that He created male and female for one another to express their love and union in marriage and pro-creation. While we can respect  the dignity of the *person* and treat him or her with love and compassion, we cannot declare his or her sin to no longer be sin. In fact, it would be a disservice to tell someone in mortal sin that he is innocent--you're actually encouraging that person to destroy his relationship with God as well as his soul.

What many do not realize is that when we sin (lying, stealing, pride, adultery, etc.) not only do we damage our souls and separate ourselves from God, we also harden our hearts and darken our intellects, and diminish our faith. That's why we need an external source (God's law, Scripture, the teachings of the Apostles) to help guide us and set us on the right path. If I cheat on my husband and commit adultery, my heart will become hardened and my intellect darkened so that I start making excuses for my behavior, trying to justify it, and eventually start talking about how others shouldn't "judge" me to tell me what I'm doing is bad or wrong--all the way up to the point where I start glossing over the Bible's teachings that adultery is a sin from which I should repent.

If someone is correcting me in love, she is doing me a great service. In fact, it is a spiritual work of mercy to correct the sinner.

I would encourage you to never be complacent with a church community that does not preach the Gospel or preaches contrary to the Gospel. Our eternal souls are at stake. Mean people suck. There are mean people everywhere, including among the so-called "enlightened and tolerant liberals." When you put forth the question of "Is there a God?" "Who is He?" "What does He ask of me?" you should search for the Truth, and not what you would like the answer to be.


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