# Spin-Off: The Souls of the Dead



## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

The question came up that if the souls of those who have died in Christ are "asleep" or can't know, hear, see anything, then why was Christ able to speak with Moses and Elijah (and be seen by James, Peter, and John)? (Matthew 17:1-6)


When you die, you are immediately judged (Heb. 9:27): "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,"

Christ tells us in Mark 12:27 "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken."

Death is the separation of the soul from the body. Your soul lives on or exists after death. You are immediately judged by Christ and either descend into Hell or go to Heaven.

2 Corinthians 5:8 "we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord."

The souls in Heaven are still part of the Church, the Body of Christ. They don't lose their membership or spiritual communion with Christ and us simply because they've gone to heaven. 

This is called The Communion of Saints-- the community of Christ's saints on earth and in Heaven, making up His Church.

Just as the saints on earth pray for (intercede) one another, we can also ask the saints in Heaven to pray for us.

A helpful article explaining this further:

As part of their belief in the role of the saints as professed in the  Apostles Creed, Roman Catholic Christians petition the intercession of  the saints. 
The apostle Paul frequently asked other fellow believers in Jesus to pray for him. 

Col 4:3 At the same time, pray for us, too, that God may open a door to  us for the word, to speak of the mystery of Christ, for which I am in  prison. Rom 15:30 ... join me in the struggle by your prayers to God on my behalf,  James asks presbyter believers to pray over other believers. 
Jam 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of  the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in  the name of the Lord  Prayer appears to be the normal way for believers (saints) on earth  to support one another. Probably all of us have asked another Christian,  as Paul did--another saint in the Body of Christ--to pray for us when  we had a need. 

Catholic Christians believe that as we can ask a fellow Christian  -a saint- to pray for us, we should be able to ask prayers from the  saints already united to the Lord in heaven. If the prayers of certain  Christians here on earth seem to possess special power because of their  great faith witness or  holiness, how much more powerful and effective  might not the prayers of those of the communion of saints in heaven who  are fully united to God.  

*How Do Saints Hear Us?*

 It is frequently asked, and reasonably so, how can the Saints know  and hear so many countless intercessory prayers from so many Christians  worldwide petitioning them. The question is really *one of knowing, not hearing.*  It is important for us to remember the fullness of revelation regarding  our state of being after our human life is completed. Principle among  scriptures revealing our future life is the revelation of the essential  nature of God Himself. Jesus often spoke of His Father (Abba) and of His  Holy Spirit. 

Matt 28:19Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them *in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit.* John 10:38...but if I (Jesus) perform them, even if  you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may realize (and  understand) that *the Father is in me* and *I am in the Father.*  The New Testament speaks often of the unity of the Godhead. 

John 14:10-11Do you not believe that *I* (Jesus) *am in the Father and the Father is in me?* The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing His works. Believe me that *I am in the Father and the Father is in me,* or else, believe because of the works themselves.  John also speaks of our union with the Father and Jesus as a fellowship a word from the Greek _koinonia_ which is translated "community" meaning "in-union-with." 

John 1:3What we have seen and heard we proclaim now to you, so that you too may have *fellowship* with us; for our *fellowship* is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.  Jesus is most specific about our final relationship with Him. He calls it a one-ness. 

John 17:11And now I will no longer be in the world, but  they are in the world, while I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them  in your name that you have given me, so that *they may be one* just as we are. John 17:21-22... so that they may *all be one,*  as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us,  that the world may believe that you sent me. And I have given them the  glory you gave me, so that *they may be one, as we are one.*  The Trinity is a foreshadowing of our eternal life--a oneness with  the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. We will share the life of the  Godhead; as He knows so shall we know. The Saints already in union,  at-one-ness with God share his life and his knowledge. 

Paul put it succinctly. 
1 Cor 13:12At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; *then I shall know fully,* as I am fully known.  John also had an insight that reflected our destiny. 
1 John 3:2Beloved, we are God's children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed *we shall be like Him,* for we shall see Him as He is.


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## Rainbow Dash (Mar 7, 2012)

The bible never tells us to petition saints in heaven for prayer. Jesus Christ is our Great Intercessor and mediator. Scriputes tells us that Christ came fufill all things. 

We are not instructed to pray for or to saints in heaven.* We pray to God*. *Jesus is enough*, *He came to give us direct access to the Father*. 

God said in His Law that the living should not seek counsel from the dead because the dead are gone to the next life already either in heaven or in hell. 

Hebrews 7:25. "He is able to save forever those who draw near to God through him, because *he always lives to make intercession for them*".

Who _is_ he that condemneth? _It is_ Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also* maketh intercession for us.* Romans 8:34

For _there is_ one God, and* one mediator between God and men*, the man Christ Jesus; 1 Timothy 2:5

When they say to you, "Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter," *should not a people consult their God? {Should they} {consult} the dead on behalf of the living? Isaiah 8:19* (NAS)

10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or *who consults the dead*. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD; because of these same detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. 13 You must be blameless before the LORD your God. Deuteronomy 18:10-13


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## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

Health&hair28 said:


> The bible never tells us to petition saints in heaven for prayer.



The saints request prayer from one another (Col 4:3, James 5:14). The saints in heaven are alive (Mark 12:27) and they are present with Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:8). There is nothing stopping them from praying for the saints on Earth.




Health&hair28 said:


> Jesus Christ is our Great Intercessor and mediator. Scriputes tells us that Christ came fufill all things.



You are mixing a form of prayer (intercessory prayer) with the role of Jesus Christ as the Redeemer and our High Priest. 

There are different forms or kinds of prayer:

-Thanksgiving ("Thank you Lord for x,yz")
-Petition ("Our Father, Who art in Heaven, hallowed by Thy Name...")
-Intercessory, ("Hi Jennny, I have a prayer request. Can you pray for my Dad who's going into surgery next week?")

Jesus Christ is God. Jesus Christ is Man. He possesses both a fully Divine Nature and a fully human nature. Christ shed His blood on the Cross in order to redeem us and cleanse us from sin, to open the door to Heaven and reconcile us with God. He is the Way, the Light, Life and Truth, and outside of Christ there is no salvation.

Intercessory prayer (asking someone to pray for you) does not infringe upon, usurp, or degrade Christ's role in salvation. You are simply confusing these two things.



Health&hair28 said:


> We are not instructed to pray for or to saints in heaven.* We pray to God*. *Jesus is enough*, *He came to give us direct access to the Father*.



There's a thread right now in the Christian Forum where you all are asking for each other's prayers. If that's the case, why even ask other people to pray for you? You're just spooked out and don't understand the concept of a saint *in heaven* praying on our behalf just like a saint on earth would.



Health&hair28 said:


> God said in His Law that the living should not seek counsel from the dead because the dead are gone to the next life already either in heaven or in hell.



Who said anything about seeking counsel? 



Health&hair28 said:


> 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or *who consults the dead*. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD; because of these same detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. 13 You must be blameless before the LORD your God. Deuteronomy 18:10-13



I'm not talking about seances, or the Occult, or spirtualism. I'm talking about the Communion of Saints. Those are completely opposite things.


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## Rainbow Dash (Mar 7, 2012)

There is no scripture on asking prayer from the saints in heaven. We can boldy enter the throne of grace through our Lord Jesus Christ. 

Of course we here on earth are to pray for one another. And when we on earth pray for one another, we pray to the Lord God not other saints. That is scriptural. 

*Jesus Christ is enough. We have access to the Father through Him. He can hear our prayers and He is able to take care of our prayers that we petition to Him. *


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## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

Health&hair28 said:


> There is no scripture on asking prayer from the saints in heaven.



It asks prayer of the saints. Saints in heaven are still saints, and they are very much alive (Mark 12:27) AND the coolest part is that they are in Jesus' presence (2 Cor. 5:8).



Health&hair28 said:


> We can boldy enter the throne of grace through our Lord Jesus Christ.



The Saints in heaven are currently standing right there at the throne of grace adoring God. How neat is that?



Health&hair28 said:


> Of course we here on earth are to pray for one another. And when we on earth pray for one another, we pray to the Lord God not other saints. That is scriptural.



Asking a saint to pray for you isn't the same as praying to God.


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## Rainbow Dash (Mar 7, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> It asks prayer of the saints. Saints in heaven are still saints, and they are very much alive (Mark 12:27) AND the coolest part is that they are in Jesus' presence (2 Cor. 5:8).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

If I ask you to pray for me, you as a Christian will pray to God, this is what I mean. 

The dead are the dead. If someone has died then they are considered dead. I don't need to ask my grandmother to pray for me if she is already dead. I can ask you, or my others sisters here to pray. God never told us to ask the saints in heaven to pray. We don't know if they made it to heaven to begin with. 

How do we know who is in heaven? 

Did God give you a name and tell you to that this person is in heaven praying for you?


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## natural_one (Mar 7, 2012)

I have a friend that is a prophetess that talks to the Holy Spirit as well as the Saints, but the Holy Spirit did tell her they are there for guidance not for her to pray to.


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## InVue (Mar 7, 2012)

Galadriel How are you interpreting we are to pray to the saints via the scripture below you quoted? Thanks

Mar 12:27 *He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.*


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## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

InVue said:


> @Galadriel How are you interpreting we are to pray to the saints via the scripture below you quoted? Thanks
> 
> Mar 12:27 *He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.*




InVue I pointed out Mark 12:27 to demonstrate that the soul exists after death and is very much alive. Mark 12:27 parallels Luke 20:38 "He is *not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive*." 

Moses and Elijah appeared with Christ on the mountain, though they had died waaaaay before Christ's birth. This further confirms that the righteous are alive after death (Luke 9:27-36).

St. Paul the Apostle also said to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8)

So what do we have based on these Scriptures? 

1.  Your soul doesn't cease to exist after death. You live, and in fact, you live forever.
2.  You are present with the Lord in Heaven

When I ask another Christian to pray for me (Hey Jenny, can you pray for me?), I am asking a living member of the Church to pray for me.
When I ask Saint Padre Pio to pray for me (Hey Padre Pio, can you pray for me?) I am asking a living member of the Church to pray for me.

The Communion of Saints. The Body of Christ has members on Earth and in Heaven. Do you think a Christian is no longer a Christian or a member of the Body once he reaches heaven?


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## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

natural_one said:


> I have a friend that is a prophetess that talks to the Holy Spirit as well as the Saints, but the Holy Spirit did tell her they are there for guidance not for her to pray to.



We request the saints in heaven to pray for us. This is different from praying to God in adoration.


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## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

Health&hair28 said:


> If I ask you to pray for me, you as a Christian will pray to God, this is what I mean.



Exactly. Do you stop being alive, or a Christian, or a member of the Body of Christ just because you go to Heaven? If I can say, "Joe, pray for me." I can say "St. Theresa, pray for me."



Health&hair28 said:


> The dead are the dead.



How did Moses and Elijah appear and speak with Jesus Christ? (Luke 9:27-36)

Luke 20:38-- God is the God of the Living, not of the dead. All are alive unto Him

2 Cor. 5:8-- to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord




Health&hair28 said:


> We don't know if they made it to heaven to begin with.
> How do we know who is in heaven?



All canonized saints are known to be in heaven . I'll provide an explanation on the canonization process in another post in this same thread.


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## Rainbow Dash (Mar 7, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> Exactly. Do you stop being alive, or a Christian, or a member of the Body of Christ just because you go to Heaven? If I can say, "Joe, pray for me." I can say "St. Theresa, pray for me."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
*What proof do you have of who is in heaven?* God never told us to ask the saints in heaven to pray. This is my point.* Give me one scripture in the bible where God tells us to ask those who are dead and now in heaven to pray for us?* Other than that you are just twisting the scripture to make it say what you want to believe or what you have been taught by men.


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## InVue (Mar 7, 2012)

Galadriel Respectively, I still don't get it. And I totally disagree that to God all are alive. If that were the case God would not have told Joshua that His servant Moses was dead. 

Jos 1:2 *Moses my servant is dead*; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, even to the children of Israel. 

I don't believe God wants us to be concern with nor communicate with dead souls. We have a job in preparing ourselves (living souls) to meet Him no time to worry about the dead. At least I don't... But I was just curious as to how you could interpret Mark 12:27 the way you did that's all.

God Bless


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Mar 7, 2012)

prayer is also worship, so from that aspect praying to a saint would still be wrong, he wants us to worship Him only ...


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## VictoriousBrownFlower (Mar 7, 2012)

I dont believe she is saying pray to a saint but that saints pray for you in heaven. In the rosary you ask the mother virgin mary to pray for you. I believe the things shes saying are truth to catholics not christians.


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## InVue (Mar 7, 2012)

BronxJazzy said:


> I dont believe she is saying pray to a saint but that saints pray for you in heaven. In the rosary you ask the mother virgin mary to pray for you. *I believe the things shes saying are truth to catholics not christians.*



I see and I respect that.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Mar 7, 2012)

_____________


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## Rainbow Dash (Mar 7, 2012)

BronxJazzy said:


> I dont believe she is saying pray to a saint but that saints pray for you in heaven. In the rosary you ask the mother virgin mary to pray for you. I believe the things shes saying are truth to catholics not christians.


 
But aren't catholics supposed to be Christians? 

I know what you are both saying but what I'm saying is that *it is not biblical. *We must be careful not to teach as doctrine the commandments and traditions of men.

God did not say the saints in heaven are praying for us. The bible makes it clear the *JESUS CHRIST makes intercession for us*. 

God did not say ask a saint who has died and is in heaven to pray for you or to even go to them for prayer.

If someone has died, they are considered dead their, their soul is either in heaven or hell.


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 7, 2012)

BronxJazzy said:


> I dont believe she is saying pray to a saint but that saints pray for you in heaven. In the rosary you ask the mother virgin mary to pray for you. I believe the things shes saying are truth to catholics not christians.





> *I believe the things shes saying are truth to catholics not christians.*



So, do you mean that Catholics are NOT Christians?


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 7, 2012)

Health&hair28 said:


> But aren't catholics supposed to be Christians?
> 
> I know what you are both saying but what I'm saying is that
> 
> ...


Thanks is not enough for this post.


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 7, 2012)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> _____________


Nope, say what you were going to say please.


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## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

On Canonization...

Honoring heroes of the faith has been a part of Christianity since the Roman persecutions. We've all heard or read the stories about how our brothers and sisters in the faith were thrown to lions in the arena, and otherwise tortured and killed for refusing to denounce Christ. 

The persecutions had become so severe (the Emperor Diocletian being one of the worst offenders) that Christians often couldn't publicly worship, and literally had to do so in the catacombs. *There, they would give the bodies/remains of martyred Christians proper burial beneath altars.
*

The early Christian martyrs were honored as heroes of the faith; they were examples of remaining steadfast to Christ even in the face of persecution and death. Since the early Christian Church also believed in the Communion of Saints, they also asked the martyred Christians, who were now in heaven before the throne of grace, to pray for them.

Eventually not only martyrs were honored as saints in heaven, but also very holy men and women. However, there needed to be an orderly process to it all, and so the canonization process was developed to address this.

The first step of canonization is to investigate the Servant of God's life, whether or not she practiced virtue to a heroic degree, etc. If a miracle (usually a healing of a spontaneous nature that can't be explained by science and is of supernatural origin) is attributed to the Servant of God, then the Church declares her "Blessed" (this is beatification). 

Further investigation and study continues, and usually there is someone appointed to raise any possible objections as to why the person couldn't or shouldn't be canonized. This is where we get the phrase "devil's advocate" from, because the person with this task raises objections or counter-arguments.

If all is going well, then a second miracle attributed to the Blessed's intercession needs to be verified. If so, then finally the Church may publicly declare her a Saint in heaven. A canonized saint's name is added to the list of all canonized saints, she is given a feast day (kind of like a party day celebrating her "birthday into Heaven"), and is honored as a hero of the faith among the universal church. 

Canonization doesn't make a saint, it is simply an official declaration or acknowledgement that a person is a saint in heaven. Also, not all saints are canonized, so not being canonized doesn't mean a person isn't in heaven.


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## VictoriousBrownFlower (Mar 7, 2012)

I believe their teachings are somewhat different. As a christian you go to Jesus yourself but in the catholic faith you can go to a saint because they are blameless in god and ask them to pray for you and your sins. That is what the hail mary, and the hail holy queen is. 

Every religion has different teachings that are truth to them. The saints can intercede for you. They are with the father. There are different saints for every sickness and need in god. You go to them and they not only pray for you but protect you.


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## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

InVue said:


> @Galadriel Respectively, I still don't get it. And I totally disagree that to God all are alive. If that were the case God would not have told Joshua that His servant Moses was dead.
> 
> Jos 1:2 *Moses my servant is dead*; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, even to the children of Israel.



Again, how then does Moses appear on a mountainside and speak with Christ and is seen by John, James, and Peter?


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## Rainbow Dash (Mar 7, 2012)

Ladies, good discussion this morning.

I say this in love, please consider God's word over traditions and teachings of man. 

The scriptures have been provided to us for our good, to make us aware of what God has given us through Christ, and what pleases Him and displeases Him.

*Exalt God's Word over all else, even our ownselves. This is for me too.*

Have a blessed and prosperous day!!


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 7, 2012)

BronxJazzy said:


> I believe their teachings are somewhat different.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So, let me get what you are saying....you are saying that I as a Christian can go to God (who is Jesus) myself and ask what it is I need or to pray for others, but as a catholic, I would be able to go to a saints cause they are blameless in God?  So, what I'm taking is that you are saying that Jesus is not blameless but the saints are.  Am I right on making this assessment?


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## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

Health&hair28 said:


> *What proof do you have of who is in heaven?* God never told us to ask the saints in heaven to pray. This is my point.* Give me one scripture in the bible where God tells us to ask those who are dead and now in heaven to pray for us?* Other than that you are just twisting the scripture to make it say what you want to believe or what you have been taught by men.



Actually it's the other way around. Christians have professed the Communion of Saints for almost 2,000 years. The Scriptures I provided affirms this.


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## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> prayer is also worship, so from that aspect praying to a saint would still be wrong, he wants us to worship Him only ...



We ask the saints FOR prayers, to pray for us. We don't pray TO them in worship.


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## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

Health&hair28 said:


> But aren't catholics supposed to be Christians?


 
We certainly are! In fact we are the first Christians. The Catholic Church is the Church established by Jesus Christ. We put the Bible together.


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 7, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> We certainly are! In fact we are the first Christians. The Catholic Church is the Church established by Jesus Christ. We put the Bible together.


No, the Jews were the first Christians.  A Christian means "a follower of Jesus Christ."  They were the first to follow and believe and then the gentiles after the fact.  They were first called christians in Antioch...they did not call themselves christians, but The Way.

ETA: Also, Jesus said to Peter: "Upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it."  The Apostle Peter was a Jew, he was not a catholic.  The Jews were the ones that were in the Upper Room.  The Jews were the ones whom God used to preach the gospel to everyone, and they baptized them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.


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## VictoriousBrownFlower (Mar 7, 2012)

I respect all ideas of religion. Its interesting to me. So I feel no qualms about a discussion like this. It just gives people a different perspective. On the rosary you have metals that you can get of the saints. Its all added protection. You dont put them above Jesus. He is the perfect example for us to follow. But we arent blameless. We have sinned. 

Think of it like this. They have big prayer circles in heaven. Thats what I imagine it is like. You dont put them above god you just know they are at the hand of the father. We all have our traditions. Some that others dont understand. I dont believe any are wrong or right. Just different. We all pray, praise, worship differently. Thats why a personal relationship with god is so important. A faith so strong in him that nothing can sway you.


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## VictoriousBrownFlower (Mar 7, 2012)

Nice & Wavy said:


> So, let me get what you are saying....you are saying that I as a Christian can go to God (who is Jesus) myself and ask what it is I need or to pray for others, but as a catholic, I would be able to go to a saints cause they are blameless in God? So, what I'm taking is that you are saying that Jesus is not blameless but the saints are. Am I right on making this assessment?


 
Put it like this because I can only use laymans terms. I am not practicing right now. They are praying to jesus for us. Because I guess you can say they are closer to god than we are.


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## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

Health&hair28 said:


> *Exalt God's Word over all else, even our ownselves. This is for me too.*



Oh yes, Sola Scriptura... the problem with this is that not even Christ and the Apostles held to "scripture alone." Also, another problem is that you have  40,000 Protestant denominations all claiming "I go by the Word of God alone," if that is the case, then why so many different churches and interpretations?

There is only One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

There are 40,000 Protestant churches all claiming to go by the "word of God alone and not man" --who's right?

Do you believe in total depravity or predestination? (Calvinism)
Or the opposite, that we have free will as John Wesley (Methodists) taught?
Are you a Seventh-Day Adventist (who believe everyone who worships on Sunday is sinning and need to worship on Saturdays)?
Baptist? 
Anabaptist? (No, scratch that...they're extinct now)
Lutheran?
Evangelical?
Anglican? 
Pentecostal?
Quakers don't even believe in baptism

Which one is it? How can this be since you are going by the Word of God alone and not man, and the Holy Spirit is speaking to you in your interpretations?


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 7, 2012)

BronxJazzy said:


> I respect all ideas of religion. Its interesting to me. So I feel no qualms about a discussion like this. It just gives people a different perspective. On the rosary you have metals that you can get of the saints. Its all added protection. You dont put them above Jesus. He is the perfect example for us to follow. But we arent blameless. We have sinned.
> 
> Think of it like this. They have big prayer circles in heaven. Thats what I imagine it is like. You dont put them above god you just know they are at the hand of the father. We all have our traditions. Some that others dont understand. I dont believe any are wrong or right. Just different. We all pray, praise, worship differently. Thats why a personal relationship with god is so important. A faith so strong in him that nothing can sway you.


Because I have a relationship with Jesus Christ, religion doesn't have any place in my life.  Most people want religion because they feel it doesn't put any restrictions on the way you want to live your life.  Having a relationship with Jesus certainly doesn't put restrictions on my life, but I strive to live for Him and for others to see Him in and through me.  So, therefore I am grateful that I am not a religious person.

I can see now that you have your mind made up about what you believe.  And that's ok.  We do have choices. I won't keep going with this, and I do have to go to work, so have a great day!


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 7, 2012)

BronxJazzy said:


> Put it like this because I can only use laymans terms. I am not practicing right now. *They are praying to jesus for us. Because I guess you can say they are closer to god than we are*.


I see. Ok, have a nice day.


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## Rainbow Dash (Mar 7, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> Oh yes, Sola Scriptura... the problem with this is that not even Christ and the Apostles held to "scripture alone." Also, another problem is that you have 40,000 Protestant denominations all claiming "I go by the Word of God alone," if that is the case, then why so many different churches and interpretations?
> 
> There is only One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
> 
> ...


 
The *bible is right*. *It is truth*. I do not go by denominations I go by the *Word of God*. I am a Christian that believes in the Word of God. I am not trying to add to His word nor take from it.


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## auparavant (Mar 7, 2012)

We catholics don't advocate for anyone else to do what we do, but these are simply OUR beliefs and we proclaim our beliefs with the Nicene Creed weekly.  We are affirming our beliefs.  In other words, we are not saying that YOU should be praying to the saints.  She's explaining our biblical beliefs of our faith and how we do it.  I believe everyone is free to contribute how they interpret life after death on here, if I'm not mistaken.  It's not about telling YOU what to do but noting that these are catholic beliefs is going to be a given.  Now let me find that prayer to St. Jude.  

I mean, lighten up, it doesn't have to turn into a "this is the truth" kinda thing every time because every single denomination is going to differ slightly because much of the au-dela is unknown on earth.  Feel me?   People asked, people said they were not sure, some people explained what they believe according to their faith etc..  Lighten up.  But this arguing and charge that it's not biblical is kinda ridiculous.  Same could be said back and that's not the purpose of this forum.  That's not needed here...people should be open to express themselves without spiritual mandates.  If not, please have them open up a catholic and 7th day adventist one where these issues can be openly discussed without having to defend that ....it's a valid christian faith.


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## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

Nice & Wavy said:


> So, let me get what you are saying....you are saying that I as a Christian can go to God (who is Jesus) myself and ask what it is I need or to pray for others, but as a catholic, I would be able to go to a saints cause they are blameless in God?  So, what I'm taking is that you are saying that Jesus is not blameless but the saints are.  Am I right on making this assessment?



I think what she's saying is that the saints on earth are still struggling, fighting the good fight and still have our faults and imperfections. Everyone in heaven is morally and spiritually perfect, and they are with Jesus and stand before God's throne.


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## Rainbow Dash (Mar 7, 2012)

auparavant said:


> We catholics don't advocate for anyone else to do what we do, but these are simply OUR beliefs and we proclaim our beliefs with the Nicene Creed weekly. We are affirming our beliefs. In other words, we are not saying that YOU should be praying to the saints. She's explaining our biblical beliefs of our faith and how we do it. I believe everyone is free to contribute how they interpret life after death on here, if I'm not mistaken. It's not about telling YOU what to do but noting that these are catholic beliefs is going to be a given.


 

Okay. Thanks for clearing that up.

Have a good day.


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## auparavant (Mar 7, 2012)

Health&hair28 said:


> Okay. Thanks for clearing that up.
> 
> Have a good day.



Is that a blessing or a veiled slight?erplexed  Well, thank you, I am having quite a good day and I SINCERELY hope you do as well.   It's discussion...let's be civil, tis all.


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## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

Health&hair28 said:


> The *bible is right*. *It is truth*. I do not go by denominations I go by the *Word of God*. I am a Christian that believes in the Word of God. I am not trying to add to His word nor take from it.



This is exactly what all these denominations say, that they go by the Word of God alone and nothing else.


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## VictoriousBrownFlower (Mar 7, 2012)

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/praying-to-the-saints

Theres a good read about why catholics pray to the saints if anyone is interested in reading it. Auparavant is right do what feels right to you


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Mar 7, 2012)

I'm really trying to understand what you are saying, but can't find any scripture to support people asking the saints for prayers to pray to Jesus on our behalf.


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## Rainbow Dash (Mar 7, 2012)

auparavant said:


> Is that a blessing or a veiled slight?erplexed Well, thank you, I am having quite a good day and I SINCERELY hope you do as well.  It's discussion...let's be civil, tis all.


 

A blessing. I am not hear to fight or cause you or anyone problems. I come in peace.


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## Rainbow Dash (Mar 7, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> This is exactly what all these denominations say, that they go by the Word of God alone and nothing else.


 
I dont know what else you want from me. I do not fall under any denomination. I am a believer in Christ and have accepted Him as Savior. So I am a Christian. His Word is life and in it I find life.


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## loolalooh (Mar 7, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> Oh yes, Sola Scriptura... the problem with this is that not even Christ and the Apostles held to "scripture alone." *Also, another problem is that you have  40,000 Protestant denominations all claiming "I go by the Word of God alone," if that is the case, then why so many different churches and interpretations?*
> 
> There is only One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
> 
> ...



To answer the bolded: Because "claiming to go by God's Word" is different from "actually going by God's Word".  I can "claim" to have a 2012 Lexus in my garage but actually have a 2009 Toyota.  Another (possibly better) example, is the Christian man who "claims" that God told him to marry a particular woman.  However, it turns out, that he wasn't "actually" hearing from God.  

The Holy Spirit is the truth.  One has to be sure that one is hearing from the Holy Spirit.  Frankly, some religions have added practices made by man and not by God, imo.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Mar 7, 2012)

@auparavant 

you are right it is a discussion and I thought we were being civil...


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## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

Nice & Wavy said:


> No, the Jews were the first Christians.  A Christian means "a follower of Jesus Christ."  They were the first to follow and believe and then the gentiles after the fact.  They were first called christians in Antioch...they did not call themselves christians, but The Way.
> 
> I'm aware that Jesus and the Apostles were Jews.  While they did not discard their Jewish identity, the Apostles recognized Christ as the fulfillment of OT prophecies and of the New Covenant.
> 
> ETA: Also, Jesus said to Peter: "Upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it."  The Apostle Peter was a Jew, he was not a catholic.  The Jews were the ones that were in the Upper Room.  The Jews were the ones whom God used to preach the gospel to everyone, and they baptized them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.



Jesus established a Church, of which Peter was the "Rock" (Matt. 16:18). Peter and the Apostles were charged with leading Christ's Church and authoritatively guiding and teaching it. 

The Apostles appointed successors, Bishops, who would continue their work. These Bishops in turn appointed Bishops to succeed them. The Pope is the successor of Peter.


---------
The name "Catholic" appears in Christian literature for the first time around the end of the first     century. By the time it was written down, it had certainly already been in use, for the     indications are that everybody understood exactly what was meant by the name when it was     written. 



     Around the year A.D. 107, a bishop, St. Ignatius of Antioch in the Near East, was     arrested, brought to Rome by armed guards and eventually martyred there in the arena. In a     farewell letter which this early bishop and martyr wrote to his fellow Christians in     Smyrna (today Izmir in modern Turkey), he made the first written mention in history of     "the Catholic Church." He wrote, "Where the bishop is present, there is the     Catholic Church" (To the Smyrnaeans 8:2). Thus, the second century of Christianity     had scarcely begun when the name of the Catholic Church was already in use. 



     Thereafter, mention of the name became more and more frequent in the written record. It     appears in the oldest written account we possess outside the New Testament of the     martyrdom of a Christian for his faith, the "Martyrdom of St. Polycarp," bishop     of the same Church of Smyrna to which St. Ignatius of Antioch had written. St. Polycarp     was martyred around 155, and the account of his sufferings dates back to that time. 



The     narrator informs us that in his final prayers before giving up his life for Christ, St.     Polycarp "remembered all who had met with him at any time, both small and great, both     those with and those without renown, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the     world."


     We know that St. Polycarp, at the time of his death in 155, had been a Christian for 86     years. He could not, therefore, have been born much later than 69 or 70. Yet it appears to     have been a normal part of the vocabulary of a man of this era to be able to speak of     "the whole Catholic Church throughout the world."


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## loolalooh (Mar 7, 2012)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> I'm really trying to understand what you are saying, but can't find any scripture to support people asking the saints for prayers to pray to Jesus on our behalf.



If I understand Galadriel correctly, here's the logic:

On earth, we at times ask others (parents, pastors, prayer lines, etc.) to intercede for us.  That being said, we can do the same thing with those (i.e., saints) in heaven.   

I use to ask saints to intercede for me (when I was in Catholic school) but I've fallen out of that practice.  This topic is interesting, but I need to meditate on it.


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## loolalooh (Mar 7, 2012)

auparavant said:


> We catholics don't advocate for anyone else to do what we do, but these are simply OUR beliefs and we proclaim our beliefs with the Nicene Creed weekly.  We are affirming our beliefs.  In other words, we are not saying that YOU should be praying to the saints.  She's explaining our biblical beliefs of our faith and how we do it.  I believe everyone is free to contribute how they interpret life after death on here, if I'm not mistaken.  It's not about telling YOU what to do but noting that these are catholic beliefs is going to be a given.  Now let me find that prayer to St. Jude.
> 
> I mean, lighten up, it doesn't have to turn into a "this is the truth" kinda thing every time because every single denomination is going to differ slightly because much of the au-dela is unknown on earth.  Feel me?   People asked, people said they were not sure, some people explained what they believe according to their faith etc..  Lighten up.  But this arguing and charge that it's not biblical is kinda ridiculous.  Same could be said back and that's not the purpose of this forum.  That's not needed here...people should be open to express themselves without spiritual mandates.  If not, please have them open up a catholic and 7th day adventist one where these issues can be openly discussed without having to defend that ....it's a valid christian faith.



I understand what you're saying, but I think the reason why so many are charged is because of how Galadriel worded her OP.  Had she *begun with **"This is what my Catholic faith believes ..."*, it would've been a different story.  Her OP gives off the vibe (whether she intended it or not) that what she says goes.  As the posts continue, we are beginning to see that this is more about _her_ beliefs as a Catholic, ... but it would've been best to introduce the thread that way.  Hopefully that makes sense.


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## auparavant (Mar 7, 2012)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> @auparavant
> 
> you are right it is a discussion and I thought we were being civil...



The thing is...another viewpoint isn't just going to be "the truth,"  it comes weighted with tradition even if one doesn't realize that it does.  Think about that for a minute.  Interpretation - it's going to differ even with the SAME scriptures and I'm not even talking about catholicism.   So, before someone says in effect that they follow the "truth" and "G-d" and all that as the only truth (remember, based upon interpretation weighted by their tradition whether they realize it or not), they are truly giving the meanings _they_ have been given regarding the subject.  The call to civility is in perhaps saying, "oh, that's the catholic viewpoint" rather than that implying that it is not biblical.  It can be proven it is, is my point.  It would be equally ruder to imply thta another's tradition is somehow less-than the catholic point of view.  So, it would be better for one to say, "oh, that' the XYZ point of view"  cuz both of youZZZ are basing it upon scripture.


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## auparavant (Mar 7, 2012)

loolalooh said:


> I understand what you're saying, but I think the reason why so many are charged is because of how Galadriel worded her OP.  Had she *begun with **"This is what my Catholic faith believes ..."*, it would've been a different story.  Her OP gives off the vibe (whether she intended it or not) that what she says goes.  As the posts continue, we are beginning to see that this is more about _her_ beliefs as a Catholic, ... but it would've been best to introduce the thread that way.  Hopefully that makes sense.



Let me go back to when I first came on here...I'd give exactly what you are expressing..."we believe" and the evil charges I got were ridiculous.  Just plain rudeness.  So, let's not single her out, please.  We all know she's catholic, that I'm catholic, that you are not, that others are not, that Divya is 7thd day...so we should surmise that, "oh, they are coming from their camp ON THE SUBJECT."  That's all I'm saying.  She has not been rude nor arrogant in this discussion at all.  Shrugs.

ETA:  Oh, btw, she's a theologian or is on her way to becoming a doctored one.  She's already got a degree under belt on the subjects...it's just how it's presented...you ask a question, someone provides an answer. No one is questioning anyone's "salvation" as far as I know.


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## blazingthru (Mar 7, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> Oh yes, Sola Scriptura... the problem with this is that not even Christ and the Apostles held to "scripture alone." Also, another problem is that you have 40,000 Protestant denominations all claiming "I go by the Word of God alone," if that is the case, then why so many different churches and interpretations?
> 
> There is only One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
> 
> ...


 
Adventist do not believe that, individual people believe that, infact most relgions believe if your not following them your in error. Me, I follow the word of God no other religion. Also I am SDA I do not follow the teachings of the catholic Church, I protest the teachings of the catholic church as do everyone that is not in the catholic faith. However, most of the faiths you listed above have some of the teachings of the catholic church which they should not have but kept it in as part of their services. They tag under Protestant but forgot that they were *protesting *the "Mother Church" I am not offending this is the truth. I have nothing against the Catholic Church but to be honest the beliefs of that faith is very complex and confusing.


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## auparavant (Mar 7, 2012)

> I am not offending, this is the truth."




Rather try, "that is the way WE interpret it" so as not to offend.  I'm trying to get people to understand this...difficult.  It's all in how you present self.  We can all definitely contribute but when one charges another from one denomination to another...that is not the way.


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## loolalooh (Mar 7, 2012)

auparavant said:


> Let me go back to when I first came on here...I'd give exactly what you are expressing..."we believe" and the evil charges I got were ridiculous.  Just plain rudeness.  So, let's not single her out, please.  We all know she's catholic, that I'm catholic, that you are not, that others are not, that Divya is 7thd day...so we should surmise that, "oh, they are coming from their camp ON THE SUBJECT."  That's all I'm saying.  She has not been rude nor arrogant in this discussion at all.  Shrugs.



Please don't assume what I have seen.  To be honest, I haven't seen what you are talking about.  Don't assume that I "know" she is Catholic already and so when I walk in this thread I should know better.  Don't assume that I've seen whatever thread you started with "we believe" and were replied with evil charges.

Additionally, please do not put words in mouth.  In no way have I called her rude or arrogant.  Frankly, all I've gleaned from her posts is that she is very intelligent and stands for her beliefs.  All I stated was that the reason people may be up in arms is the _way_ in which her OP was stated.  I compare this threads to those threads I have *seen* and the difference is: most other threads post a question or an article/sermon found online ... this thread begins with a statement.  That was all.


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## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

Health&hair28 said:


> I dont know what else you want from me. I do not fall under any denomination. I am a believer in Christ and have accepted Him as Savior. So I am a Christian. His Word is life and in it I find life.



non-denominational is still a denomination, my friend. 

The reason why I bring this up is because you judge Catholics to be in error because we don't "go by the Word alone," however what you REALLY mean is that we don't go by your interpretation of the Word.

The very concept of Scripture Alone "Sola Scriptura" was created by a man, Martin Luther, in 1517 AD. This concept itself is ironically nowhere in Scripture.

If it's true that all you have to do is read God's Word and let the Holy Spirit guide you in interpretation, doctrine, etc. then why would the Holy Spirit tell John Wesley we have free will but then tell John Calvin that there is no such thing as free will and we are already predestined for Heaven or Hell? Why would the Holy Spirit lead SDA to worship on Saturday but everyone else on Sunday? Why would the Holy Spirit lead Quakers to believe that they don't have to baptize?

The reason is because the Holy Spirit is not guiding these interpretations, and that you can't use "Scripture alone," because what ends up happening is 40,000 different interpretations of what Scripture means.


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## blazingthru (Mar 7, 2012)

auparavant said:


> Rather try, "that is the way WE interpret it" so as not to offend. I'm trying to get people to understand this...difficult. It's all in how you present self. We can all definitely contribute but when one charges another from one denomination to another...that is not the way.


 
I didn't say we because its a fact, what does Protestant mean? I could be way wrong here. hmm let me look it up. 

Protestant denominations differ in the degree to which they reject Catholic belief and practice. Some churches, such as Anglicans and Lutherans, tend to resemble Catholicism in their formal liturgy, while others, like Baptists and Presbyterians, retain very little of the liturgy and tradition associated with the Catholic church. 
In common with Catholic and Orthodox Christians, Protestants adhere to the authority of the Bible and the doctrines of the early creeds. Protestants are distinguished by their emphasis on the doctrines of "justification by grace alone through faith, the priesthood of all believers, and the supremacy of Holy Scripture in matters of faith and order." {2} Most Protestant churches recognize only two sacraments directly commanded by the Lord - baptism and communion - as opposed to the seven sacraments accepted by the Catholic Church.

leaving this thread.


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## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

blazingthru said:


> Adventist do not believe that, individual people believe that, infact most relgions believe if your not following them your in error. Me, I follow the word of God no other religion. Also I am SDA I do not follow the teachings of the catholic Church, I protest the teachings of the catholic church as do everyone that is not in the catholic faith. However, most of the faiths you listed above have some of the teachings of the catholic church which they should not have but kept it in as part of their services. They tag under Protestant but forgot that they were *protesting *the "Mother Church" I am not offending this is the truth. I have nothing against the Catholic Church but to be honest the beliefs of that faith is very complex and confusing.



blazingthru, my grandma is SDA and she gave me a mouthful about worshiping on Sunday and keeping the Sabbath on Saturday . I hope I haven't been offensive, that's not my intention. You are right that Protestants are Protestors of the Church. However since the 16th century we've seen Protestantism divide into several thousands of denominations, some of which have doctrines diametrically opposed to one another. 
.


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## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

loolalooh said:


> To answer the bolded: Because "claiming to go by God's Word" is different from "actually going by God's Word".  I can "claim" to have a 2012 Lexus in my garage but actually have a 2009 Toyota.  Another (possibly better) example, is the Christian man who "claims" that God told him to marry a particular woman.  However, it turns out, that he wasn't "actually" hearing from God.
> 
> The Holy Spirit is the truth.  One has to be sure that one is hearing from the Holy Spirit.  Frankly, some religions have added practices made by man and not by God, imo.



I agree that just because a person says the Holy Spirit is guiding him in interpreting Scripture, his doctrine, etc. doesn't make it so. However the problem is that "Sola Scriptura" or Scripture Alone which non-Catholic Christians adhere to is itself not supported Scripture and has actually led to splintering and opposing denominations and doctrines.


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## loolalooh (Mar 7, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> I agree that just because a person says the Holy Spirit is guiding him in interpreting Scripture, his doctrine, etc. doesn't make it so. However the problem is that "Sola Scriptura" or Scripture Alone which non-Catholic Christians adhere to is itself not supported Scripture and has actually led to splintering and opposing denominations and doctrines.



I'm trying to find the words to pose this question, so bear with me.  Other than relying on Scripture, what do Catholics lean on?  What do you feel has prevented the Catholic church from splintering into different denominations?


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## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

loolalooh said:


> If I understand Galadriel correctly, here's the logic:
> 
> On earth, we at times ask others (parents, pastors, prayer lines, etc.) to intercede for us.  That being said, we can do the same thing with those (i.e., saints) in heaven.
> 
> I use to ask saints to intercede for me (when I was in Catholic school) but I've fallen out of that practice.  This topic is interesting, but I need to meditate on it.




loolalooh you got it!


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## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

loolalooh said:


> I understand what you're saying, but I think the reason why so many are charged is because of how Galadriel worded her OP.  Had she *begun with **"This is what my Catholic faith believes ..."*, it would've been a different story.  Her OP gives off the vibe (whether she intended it or not) that what she says goes.  As the posts continue, we are beginning to see that this is more about _her_ beliefs as a Catholic, ... but it would've been best to introduce the thread that way.  Hopefully that makes sense.



Sometimes I forget that not everyone knows I'm a Catholic, though we have had some epic threads a while ago


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## loolalooh (Mar 7, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> Sometimes I forget that not everyone knows I'm a Catholic, though we have had some epic threads a while ago



That is fine.  I never saw those epic threads.  Maybe it's good that I wasn't around then.


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## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

blazingthru said:


> leaving this thread.



If I've been rude in anyway, I am very sorry. I know I can get passionate when discussing these things!


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Mar 7, 2012)

oh, okay...thank you, I like to go to the word there is nothing wrong in that

I'll add to this below.. 



auparavant said:


> The thing is...another viewpoint isn't just going to be "the truth," it comes weighted with tradition even if one doesn't realize that it does. Think about that for a minute. Interpretation - it's going to differ even with the SAME scriptures and I'm not even talking about catholicism.  So, before someone says in effect that they follow the "truth" and "G-d" and all that as the only truth (remember, based upon interpretation weighted by their tradition whether they realize it or not), they are truly giving the meanings _they_ have been given regarding the subject. The call to civility is in perhaps saying, "oh, that's the catholic viewpoint" rather than that implying that it is not biblical. It can be proven it is, is my point. It would be equally ruder to imply thta another's tradition is somehow less-than the catholic point of view. So, it would be better for one to say, "oh, that' the XYZ point of view" cuz both of youZZZ are basing it upon scripture.


----------



## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

loolalooh said:


> I'm trying to find the words to pose this question, so bear with me.  Other than relying on Scripture, what do Catholics lean on?  What do you feel has prevented the Catholic church from splintering into different denominations?



We believe God revealed Himself and His truths to us through Scripture (Old and New Testament) and the extra-biblical teachings of the Apostles (aka Apostolic Tradition).

These two make up the "Deposit of Faith" of God's public revelation to man, which cannot be added to or altered.

Scripture is interpreted in light of Apostolic Tradition and the constant witness of the Church. 

For example, the term/phrase "Holy Trinity" and the explanation of the Father, Son and Spirit existing as three distinct Persons in One God--has a *Scriptural basis*, but is not explicitly spelled out in Scripture. However when we look at Apostolic Tradition and the constant witness of the Church, we know that God the Father is God, God the Son (Jesus) is God, and the Holy Spirit is God--One God, Three Persons--the Trinity.

Likewise with the question of the communion of saints--Scriptural basis and Apostolic Tradition, constantly witnessed to by the Church.


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## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> oh, okay...thank you, I like to go to the word there is nothing wrong in that



God bless, I enjoy the Word as well. In fact my current Lent devotion is Scripture reading.


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## loolalooh (Mar 7, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> We believe God revealed Himself and His truths to us through Scripture (Old and New Testament) and the extra-biblical teachings of the Apostles (aka Apostolic Tradition).
> 
> These two make up the "Deposit of Faith" of God's public revelation to man, which cannot be added to or altered.
> 
> ...



Thanks for answering.  I have another question.  Why do Protestants exclude the Apostolic Tradition?  (I would try to find these answers on Google, but the info is too overwhelming for me to sift through right now.)


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## Rainbow Dash (Mar 7, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> non-denominational is still a denomination, my friend.
> 
> The reason why I bring this up is because you judge Catholics to be in error because we don't "go by the Word alone," however what you REALLY mean is that we don't go by your interpretation of the Word.
> 
> ...


 

Okay, so I am non-denominational. I do not subscribe to SDA, John Calvin or John Wesley. I go by God's Word. 

Actually the Word itself judges all things. 

Are you telling me that if I decide to go by the Word of God that I'm following man?  I don't think so. 

Heaven and earth will pass away but not His word. The scriptures are God breathed, inspired of God. In them we find what it means to have eternal life. We will be judged by it. We are told to mediatate on it day and night. We are told to build our lives on it. Jesus said if you hear and do not do when the winds come you will surely fall. 

So I will just stick to God's word and not my own ways, toughts, or that of others.  

The bible just does not tell us to pray to saints in heaven. That's all. 

Come boldy to the throne of grace. You have been given that through Your Savior Christ Jesus. You do not require someone else to do that for you. The veil has been torn. 

We have a Great High Priest that can be touched with the feelings of our infirmities. He can identify with us. Go in!!

*Praise His Name. He is worthy!!*


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## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

loolalooh said:


> Thanks for answering.  I have another question.  Why do Protestants exclude the Apostolic Tradition?  (I would try to find these answers on Google, but the info is too overwhelming for me to sift through right now.)



Because Apostolic Tradition makes the Protestant position difficult to hold (if not outright contradicts it). So Martin Luther, John Calvin, etc. had to axe Apostolic Tradition.

I'll give you an example.

John Calvin taught that humanity was totally depraved, which means that we are so corrupt and evil that we do not have the free will to accept the Gospel. Because we are totally depraved and can't accept Christ out of free will (according to Calvin), God has to do it for us through predestination. 

According to predestination, you are already predetermined to go to hell, or heaven. That's it. No choice.

Apostolic Tradition and the constant witness of the Church contradicts this, and asserts that Scripture does not support total depravity/predestination, that we DO have free will, and a person goes to heaven or hell based on whether or not they accept Christ. 

Apostolic Tradition is the guide and lens through which we must understand Scripture and its truths. I can go back to 1400 AD, 600 AD, 300 AD, 155 AD and see that Bishops (successors of the Apostles) and theologians constantly upheld and defended the fact that we have free will, both as a Scriptural truth and a truth passed down to us by the Apostles.


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## CelineB (Mar 7, 2012)

loolalooh said:


> If I understand Galadriel correctly, here's the logic:
> 
> On earth, we at times ask others (parents, pastors, prayer lines, etc.) to intercede for us. That being said, we can do the same thing with those (i.e., saints) in heaven.
> 
> I use to ask saints to intercede for me (when I was in Catholic school) but I've fallen out of that practice. This topic is interesting, but I need to meditate on it.


 
Why ask any dead person to pray for you (you don't even have the confirmation that they made it in heaven or they ended up in hell)?

Just go straight to the real person: *Jesus.*


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Mar 7, 2012)

Now having read all the way through; I need to add to my comment above, it's okay that you think me rude and not 'civil' ized, I'm okay with that ...but I'm not making an implication I maintain that asking a saint for prayers is not biblical and makes no sense to me in my understanding of prayer...many things can be proven, I would just like to see this proven in scripture again there is nothing wrong in that ...

I beleive that God is more concerned that we keep bibilical traditions than the traditions of men, HE said that heaven and earth will pass away before his word, so his word (scripture) is important to Him and this is what I'm basing my opinions on...






auparavant said:


> The thing is...another viewpoint isn't just going to be "the truth," it comes weighted with tradition even if one doesn't realize that it does. Think about that for a minute. Interpretation - it's going to differ even with the SAME scriptures and I'm not even talking about catholicism.  So, before someone says in effect that they follow the "truth" and "G-d" and all that as the only truth (remember, based upon interpretation weighted by their tradition whether they realize it or not), they are truly giving the meanings _they_ have been given regarding the subject.* The call to civility is in perhaps saying, "oh, that's the catholic viewpoint" rather than that implying that it is not biblical. It can be proven it is, is my point. It would be equally ruder to imply thta another's tradition is somehow less-than the catholic point of view. So, it would be better for one to say, "oh, that' the XYZ point of view" cuz both of youZZZ are basing it upon scripture.*


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## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

Choisie said:


> Why ask any dead person to pray for you (you don't even have the confirmation that they made it in heaven or they ended up in hell)?
> 
> Just go straight to the real person: *Jesus.*



The saints of the Old Testament and New Testament, and the *Canonized* saints we know are in heaven. A person is canonized a saint after at least two miracles have been performed after requesting that saint's intercessory prayer.

For example, take both of the people in my siggy, Blessed Teresa of Calcutta and Blessed John Paul II.

A woman in India had a large abdominal tumor, and the nuns (Daughters of Charity, members of Mother Teresa's Order) were praying over the woman and asked for Mother Teresa's prayers. The woman woke up the next morning with the tumor completely gone.

The same year John Paul passed away from Parkinson's disease, Sister Simon-Pierre testified that after dreaming of John  Paul II she suddenly recovered from her own Parkinson's.   Before her cure, the disease had made walking, writing and driving a car  nearly impossible. She and others had been asking for John Paul's intercessory prayers.

A second miracle (each) will need to be approved for Mother Teresa and John Paul, and then they will be officially declared Saints in Heaven (Saint Teresa of Calcutta, Saint Pope John Paul II). Their names will be added to the list of canonized saints, and they will be honored as heroes of the faith throughout the universal Church.

Blessed Teresa and John Paul, pray for us!


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## loolalooh (Mar 7, 2012)

Choisie said:


> Why ask any dead person to pray for you (you don't even have the confirmation that they made it in heaven or they ended up in hell)?
> 
> Just go straight to the real person: *Jesus.*



I understand what you're saying but I also see where the Catholic is coming from.  It's all about intercession.  No worshipping or bowing down to saints, but intercession. 

I can't speak for all saints (I don't know them all), but Mary (mother of Jesus) is certainly in heaven.  The way I am understanding this is that just as we may ask our brother/sister to "pray for us sinners", a Catholic will ask Mary to "pray for us sinners".  The difference is that Mary is in heaven and our brother/sister is here on earth.  The other difference is that Mary is closer to God than our brother/sister.

In my personal walk, I go straight to Jesus, even if I do ask others on earth to intercede for me.  I haven't asked the saints to intercede for me since I was younger, but this is an interesting discussion nonetheless.

I'm just listening to both sides right now, and not really "taking one side over another" because it is something I need to meditate on.


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## Rainbow Dash (Mar 7, 2012)

loolalooh said:


> I understand what you're saying but I also see where the Catholic is coming from. It's all about intercession. No worshipping or bowing down to saints, but intercession.
> 
> I can't speak for all saints (I don't know them all), but Mary (mother of Jesus) is certainly in heaven. The way I am understanding this is that just as we may ask our brother/sister to "pray for us sinners", a Catholic will ask Mary to "pray for us sinners". The difference is that Mary is in heaven and our brother/sister is here on earth. The other difference is that Mary is closer to God than our brother/sister.
> 
> ...


 
I'm sure Mary is in heaven but does the word tell us she is interceding for us?  We know that Moses and Elijah are in heaven but does Jesus tell us they are interceding for us? * Jesus said come unto Me*. He forever makes intercession for us and yes we are to pray for one another. 

Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving *let your requests be made known to God.* And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.  Philippians 4:6-7


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## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

loolalooh said:


> In my personal walk, I go straight to Jesus, even if I do ask others on earth to intercede for me.  I haven't asked the saints to intercede for me since I was younger, but this is an interesting discussion nonetheless.
> 
> I'm just listening to both sides right now, and not really "taking one side over another" because it is something I need to meditate on.



Often some people have the misconception that because we believe in the Communion of Saints that we don't petition Our Blessed Lord--that's not so. Some of the most beautiful prayers, poetry, and spiritual testaments have been dedicated to Our Blessed Lord.

One of my absolute favorites is from St. Therese the Little Flower who wrote in her spiritual autobiography:

                             O My                              God! Most Blessed Trinity, I desire to _Love_                              You and make You _Loved_...I desire to                              accomplish Your will perfectly and to reach the                              degree of glory You have prepared for me in Your                              Kingdom. I desire, in a word, to be a saint but I                              feel my helplessness and I beg You, my God, To be                              Yourself my _Sanctity!_ 



                                                          Since                              You loved me so much as to give me Your only Son as                              my Saviour and my Spouse, the infinite treasures of                              His merits are mine. I offer them to You with                              gladness, begging You to look upon me only in the                              Face of Jesus and in His heart burning with _Love_...


                             In the                              evening of this life, I shall appear before You with                              empty hands, for I do not ask You, Lord, to count my                              works. All our justice is stained in Your eyes. I                              wish, then, to be clothed in Your own _Justice_                              and to receive from Your _Love_ the eternal                              possession of _Yourself._ I want no other _                             Throne_, no other _Crown_ but You, my _                             Beloved!_ Time is nothing in Your eyes, and a                              single day is like a thousand years. You can, then,                              in one instant prepare me to appear before You.



--------


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## LoveisYou (Mar 7, 2012)

Honestly I don't see the point in calling on anyone else but Jesus. He is enough, He was a living sacrifice, sent by God to die for us. We don't need anything or anyone else, Jesus is enough. I see the practice of petitioning saints as a human tradition, not a Biblical command/example. Calling on the name of Jesus is enough for me.


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## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

Health&hair28 said:


> I'm sure Mary is in heaven but does the word tell us she is interceding for us?  We know that Moses and Elijah are in heaven but does Jesus tell us they are interceding for us?



Well, why not? Do not the Heavenly saints pray? 

Even angels intercede for us. 

*Zechariah 1:12 *Then the angel of the LORD said, `O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou have no mercy on Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these seventy years?'

*Revelation 8:3-4* And anotherangel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angelbefore God.​*
*And of course...

*Matthew 18:10* See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell  you that *their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in  heaven.*

If angels are before God in heaven interceding for us, why not the saints, the members of the Church who are kings and priests?


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## loolalooh (Mar 7, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> Often some people have the misconception that because we believe in the Communion of Saints that we don't petition Our Blessed Lord--that's not so. Some of the most beautiful prayers, poetry, and spiritual testaments have been dedicated to Our Blessed Lord.
> 
> One of my absolute favorites is from St. Therese the Little Flower who wrote in her spiritual autobiography:
> 
> ...



That is a beautiful prayer to the Lord.


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## Rainbow Dash (Mar 7, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> Well, why not? Do not the Heavenly saints pray?
> 
> Even angels intercede for us.
> 
> ...


 
The bible tells us that He has given his angels charge concerning us. It did not say he gave saints in heaven charge concerning us? He did not tell us that the saints in heaven intercede for us. You still cannot produce scriptural proof of this. 

Exalt God's word over all else. 

*Cast down every imagination and high thing that would exalt itself against the knowledge of God.* Corinthians 

*These are the words of Christ*
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall *agree on earth *as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.


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## loolalooh (Mar 7, 2012)

Health&hair28 said:


> I'm sure Mary is in heaven but does the word tell us she is interceding for us?  We know that Moses and Elijah are in heaven but does Jesus tell us they are interceding for us? * Jesus said come unto Me*. *He forever makes intercession for us* and yes we are to pray for one another.
> 
> Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving *let your requests be made known to God.* And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.  Philippians 4:6-7



The bolded purple is why I go to the Lord directly in prayer, regardless if others are praying for me or not. 

*The Word doesn't tell us that Mary, Moses, or Elijah is interceding for us.  
*The Word tells us to pray for each other.

My question is:
*Does the "praying for each other" stop when one enters heaven?  (Hence, can saints can pray for us?)


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## loolalooh (Mar 7, 2012)

Ladies, I'm going to exit this thread.  My head hurts. Lol.


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## Rainbow Dash (Mar 7, 2012)

loolalooh said:


> The bolded purple is why I go to the Lord directly in prayer, regardless if others are praying for me or not.
> 
> *The Word doesn't tell us that Mary, Moses, or Elijah is interceding for us.
> *The Word tells us to pray for each other.
> ...


 

They are in heaven. They are not omnipresent like God. If God the Father wanted this possibility for us, then *Jesus would have specifically told us so in the New Testament, but He did not!*

The word tells us to approach the throne of God, not the thrones of dead saints!

When Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden, it broke the direct fellowship between God and man. Christ came to restore our fellowship back with the Father. So why would God put another person back in that fellowhship, when He wants individual fellowship with every person.

*Where does it tell us that a dead saint has power to make anything happen for us?*

Folks in heaven are praising and worshipping God, they are not bothered with us like that* .* His presence is too wonderful for words, worries, and our sorrows. (This is just me talking)


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## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

Health&hair28 said:


> The bible tells us that He has given his angels charge concerning us. It did not say he gave saints in heaven charge concerning us? He did not tell us that the saints in heaven intercede for us. You still cannot produce scriptural proof of this.



I already gave proof. You just choose to ignore it. 

Let me break it down logically:

1. Members of the Church are called saints (Acts 9:13, Philipians 9:21)

2. We know that when we die, we go to be citizens of Heaven, present with Jesus (2 Cor. 5:8)

3. Being in heaven does not extinguish a saint's membership in the Church or his union with Christ (John 15:5, 1 John 3:2)

4. The saints ask one another for prayers (James 5:14, Heb. 13:8)

5. The saints, in union with the angels in heaven, worship God and offer prayers (Rev. 5:12-14, 8:3-4) 

THUS...

The saints in Heaven can and do pray for the saints on earth.

How do we know?

The canonized saints have obtained verifiable miracles for us through their prayers.

Who, in the 2,000 year history of Christianity has rejected this belief in the Communion of Saints?

Oh, no one...

except some Protestants a few hundred years ago who claimed it wasn't in Scripture--but they have 40,000 different and conflicting doctrines and interpretations of what Scripture says.


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## Rainbow Dash (Mar 7, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> I already gave proof. You just choose to ignore it.
> 
> Let me break it down logically:
> 
> ...


 
Galadriel, I know that they are saints and we will one day join them but this does not tell me that the saints in heaven are praying for us. It does not tell you that either. If folks make up their doctrine that is on them. The only doctrine I want is the Word of God. The Simplicity that is in Christ Jesus. It pleased the Father to fulfill all things through Him and that's what I'm sticking to. I can't fail if I follow Christ. 

*Relevation 5:12 does not say they are praying for us. It says they are worshiping. *
In a loud voice they were saying: 
“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, 
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength 
and honor and glory and praise!” 

*Revelation 8:3-4 Still does not say the saints in heaven are praying for us. *
3 Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God’s people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. 4 The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God’s people, went up before God from the angel’s hand

So I will remove myself from this thread. It has been a long day.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Mar 7, 2012)

I beleive that these prayers are *our prayers* all the prayers that Lord's people have made...praise go up and prayers go *up* as incense unto God 

Psalms 141
*1* I call to you, LORD, come quickly to me; 
   hear me when I call to you. 
*2* May my prayer be set before you like incense; 
   may the lifting up of my hands be like the evening sacrifice. 





Health&hair28 said:


> *Revelation 8:3-4 Still does not say the saints in heaven are praying for us. *
> 3 Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God’s people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. 4 The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God’s people, went up before God from the angel’s hand
> 
> So I will remove myself from this thread. It has been a long day.


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## auparavant (Mar 7, 2012)

I think that, just as we had works to do here on earth in this body, we'll have even greater works we can accomplish up in heaven.  Or is it that our greatest works are actually here because we struggle?  But we will work in heaven.  I don't think the saints are sitting around eating grilled leviathan all day long lol!  Sometimes, I tell G-d what I'd like to do to help those here on earth.  Maybe we should.


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## auparavant (Mar 7, 2012)

Health&hair28 said:


> They are in heaven. They are not omnipresent like God. If God the Father wanted this possibility for us, then *Jesus would have specifically told us so in the New Testament, but He did not!*
> 
> The word tells us to approach the throne of God, not the thrones of dead saints!
> 
> ...




Are you talking about locution?  Could that not be possible for us as well?  But made possible via G-d?  I see what you mean.


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## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

loolalooh said:


> My question is:
> *Does the "praying for each other" stop when one enters heaven?  (Hence, can saints can pray for us?)



Yes. We don't lose our free will or personhood in Heaven. In Heaven we are perfected and reflect God's glory and share in His knowledge. We know from Scripture that the citizens of Heaven pray and adore God. As a matter of fact, angels are before God interceding as well.


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## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

auparavant said:


> I think that, just as we had works to do here on earth in this body, we'll have even greater works we can accomplish up in heaven.  Or is it that our greatest works are actually here because we struggle?  But we will work in heaven.  I don't think the saints are sitting around eating grilled leviathan all day long lol!  Sometimes, I tell G-d what I'd like to do to help those here on earth.  Maybe we should.



Remember the Little Flower, "I want to spend my Heaven doing good upon Earth."


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## PinkPebbles (Mar 7, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> Because Apostolic Tradition makes the Protestant position difficult to hold (if not outright contradicts it). So Martin Luther, John Calvin, etc. had to axe Apostolic Tradition.
> 
> I'll give you an example.
> 
> ...


 
Does anyone know what denomination falls under John Calvin beliefs?


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## loolalooh (Mar 7, 2012)

PinkPebbles said:


> Does anyone know what denomination falls under John Calvin beliefs?



Presbyterian.
Reformed Church.


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## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

PinkPebbles said:


> Does anyone know what denomination falls under John Calvin beliefs?



Also the Calvinist churches.


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## blazingthru (Mar 8, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> If I've been rude in anyway, I am very sorry. I know I can get passionate when discussing these things!


 
I am not offended don't worry, my concern is we as Christian should be learning from one another and that is not the case, I will not fight for the Adventist, although it is a Church that I love and stand by and is my second home, it is just a Church, I give my life for Christ. If I have researched a certain subject and I see where someone is in error then I provide the little information that I know of that particular subject. In this case, I have researched. Hell, Death, Heaven, Sin. Judgement. etc., I was able to do it all scripture by Scripture and so I can see where someone doesn't have the complete knowledge of a certain subject, each person has their own walk with God it is the person that is open that is willing to learn and research that God can use. He can't use someone that is stiff and unbending and no matter what is presented to them is unbulging. Many claim I am that way but I am not. I have researched the state of the dead and cannot be moved on that subject because I have exhausted it in my opinion and see clearly what God has said in his word over and over and over again about it and so in this case, I believe I have provided the true answer as it is laid out in the word of God.  It is not my opinion it is what is laid out.  I believe we should all strive to grow in christ and build one another up. It is my desire to obtain eternal life and I do so with fear and trembling.  
Also there are many denominations that have some truth but not all truth and there in lies the problem the issue is obtaining most if not all truth that leads to salvation.


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## LucieLoo12 (Mar 8, 2012)

My mom just the left the catholic religion. she researched the beliefs and customs and found them to be false. She use to tell me all the time who they prayed to Mary, St. Michael, St. This and St. That. I told her that was idolatry. We are not supposing to be praying to anyone but God and Jesus. No where in the bible do the apostles or servants of Christ prayed to anyone else. The only people who prayed to other "beings" was heathens and pagan worship. She told me they church was building altars to different saints in the church. I told her  the disciples wanted to be build a altar for Moses and Elijah, but it wasnt permitted. I told her dont go to Mary for nothing in prayer, Mary had to get saved and filled with the Holy Ghost like everyone else did. There is no power in Mary. You can only be saved through the name of Jesus Christ.


It's easy to say what sounds right and do what feels right, but what does the bible say about it? Our feelings and emotions can be deceiving to us.Just because we feel something, dont make it right. The bible says every way to a man seems right in his own eyes, but the end of that man is death. We need to get all our information from the bible, and not from the opinions of men.

Not attacking you BroxnJazzy your post just caught my attention,



BronxJazzy said:


> http://www.catholic.com/tracts/praying-to-the-saints
> 
> Theres a good read about why catholics pray to the saints if anyone is interested in reading it. Auparavant is right do what feels right to you


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## LucieLoo12 (Mar 8, 2012)

*Ephesians 4*


*There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; *

* 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, ** 6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. *


*If we all serve the same God, where are all these beliefs, customs, laws, traditions etc coming from???? God said he is not the author of confusion.* 


Are we seeking for the will of God or the will of men?  


Ok Im done


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## auparavant (Mar 9, 2012)

Sometimes, if people would only put themselves in another's shoes or step back and assume the mind of the other or outsiders, looking in, they might see more clearly where the lack of civility is demonstrated.  Anyhoo....

_________________________________
Transfiguration

Mark 9: 2-8 

2Six days later, Jesus took with him Peter and James and John, and led them up a high mountain apart, by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, 3and his clothes became dazzling white, such as no one on earth could bleach them. 4And there appeared to them Elijah with Moses, who were talking with Jesus. 5Then Peter said to Jesus, “Rabbi, it is good for us to be here; let us make three dwellings, one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 6He did not know what to say, for they were terrified. 7Then a cloud overshadowed them, and from the cloud there came a voice, “This is my Son, the Beloved; listen to him!” 8Suddenly when they looked around, they saw no one with them any more, but only Jesus. 


Malachi 4:5 "See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes

Luke 1:17

And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous--to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

____________
Questions:

Now, in Jewish tradition and biblical text, it is supported that Elijah will herald the coming of the Messiah.  How would this be so if G-d didn't allow it?  I believe that this is also part of the communion of the saints.  They are not sitting down, they are actively serving G-d throughout the universe.  And if the argument that heaven and earth are divided is made and that once people go to heaven that they are forever in His presence, doesn't G-d also manifest His presence here on earth?  The Divine Presence?  What about Jesus coming here after the resurrection?  How do these play in this doctrine?


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## auparavant (Mar 9, 2012)

PinkPebbles said:


> Does anyone know what denomination falls under John Calvin beliefs?



I believe that most protestant churches are, especially in the United States, as they are greatly influenced by his teachings.  But according to what he said about the gospel and our depravity, how is it that we accept G-d and the gospel if we are so depraved (predestination)?  Why do we have free will?  I know this is off-tangent quite a bit.



blazingthru said:


> Also there are many denominations that have some truth but not all truth and there in lies the problem the issue is obtaining most if not all truth that leads to salvation.



Unfortunately, it is true and this statement sums up the difficulties in this thread.  Discord is probably inevitable.  It doesn't have to be, though.


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## VictoriousBrownFlower (Mar 9, 2012)

In the end its all about what you believe in your heart. I think some people get so caught up in what the bible says that they cant see anything else. 

For instance how many people think if you dont believe in Jesus you will go to hell. That never made sense to me. Gandhi is going to hell because he's not christian. 

I think if you glorify your god and live a life of service to others you will be rewarded in heaven regardless of the traditions and teachings you follow. But I'm so far from a bible thumper its not even funny.


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## Rainbow Dash (Mar 9, 2012)

BronxJazzy said:


> In the end its all about what you believe in your heart. *I think some people get so caught up in what the bible says that they cant see anything else*.
> 
> For instance *how many people think if you dont believe in Jesus you will go to hell. *That never made sense to me. Gandhi is going to hell because he's not christian.
> 
> I think if you glorify your god and live a life of service to others you will be rewarded in heaven regardless of the traditions and teachings you follow. But I'm so far from a bible thumper its not even funny.


 

*Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."* (NIV) 

*Jesus said to him, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except by (through) Me.* (AMP) 

*Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.* (KJV) 


There is a way that seems right to a man but it leads to destruction.


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## VictoriousBrownFlower (Mar 9, 2012)

I just have to say this and I know that everyone will cluch their pearls but I dont believe everything in the bible. 

The bible was written by man not god. It is interpretted in different ways by every reader pastor etc... Your relationship with god should be more about your walk with him and less about what the bible says. There are some rules and regulations in the bible that don't apply today and there were books in the bible that were left out. 

Theres alot that we dont know about that time in history. To me the bible is a history book and a book of conduct not an end all be all answer to everything. 

I really hope I dont sound snarky or anything because that wasnt my intention at all. Just giving another point of view.


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## Rainbow Dash (Mar 9, 2012)

BronxJazzy said:


> I just have to say this and I know that everyone will cluch their pearls but I dont believe everything in the bible.
> 
> The bible was written by man not god. It is interpretted in different ways by every reader pastor etc... Your relationship with god should be more about your walk with him and less about what the bible says. There are some rules and regulations in the bible that don't apply today and there were books in the bible that were left out.
> 
> ...


 

No you are not being snarky. I was under the impression that your were a bible believing Christian. The bible is full of life. It is full of His instructions and plans for us. 

If you choose to not believe that, then I and not even God can make you.

Have a great day!


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## VictoriousBrownFlower (Mar 9, 2012)

No I do believe in the bible but not to the extent that many do. I believe god gives every man spiritual guidence. To help them grow into the person he wants them to be. So he can better use them. 

I dont know how much of that process is about the bible. I've read the bible through and through. I believe its an inspiration to me. It shows you how gods majestic beauty can restore all that was once lost. Job is a fave of mine. Its just I know the bible was written by man. There are parts of the bible that were omitted. There are things we still dont know that the bible cant teach us. 

In essence its your spiritual walk with god that I think is most important to him. How you inspire others, and bring them to god. Faith in something higher and better than yourself. Knowing that you can go to others wether living or dead to get added support on your journey. Believing in the spiritual you and the good that surrounds you. Angels saints etc...All there to do the will of god.


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## Laela (Mar 9, 2012)

At the bolded, I agree wholeheartedly. If it's one that is true...it's that the Holy Spirit - God Himself, would never confuse you, lie to you, hide knowledge from you, give you half a story or try to deceive you. It is not His Nature or His Character... that is why, even without ever opening a Bible, the "most lost souls" can reach Him, through the Holy Spirit. The only divide between God and man is a heart that doesn't want to know Him. Jesus is the only bridge... 


Man can lie to us all day long.... it's good to be in a place where you know when you're being lied to. God bless..







BronxJazzy said:


> No I do believe in the bible but not to the extent that many do. I believe god gives every man spiritual guidence. To help them grow into the person he wants them to be. So he can better use them.
> 
> I dont know how much of that process is about the bible. I've read the bible through and through. I believe its an inspiration to me. It shows you how gods majestic beauty can restore all that was once lost. Job is a fave of mine. Its just I know the bible was written by man. There are parts of the bible that were omitted. There are things we still dont know that the bible cant teach us.
> 
> *In essence its your spiritual walk with god that I think is most important to him.* How you inspire others, and bring them to god. Faith in something higher and better than yourself. Knowing that you can go to others wether living or dead to get added support on your journey. Believing in the spiritual you and the good that surrounds you. Angels saints etc...All there to do the will of god.


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## auparavant (Mar 9, 2012)

BronxJazzy said:


> In the end its all about what you believe in your heart. I think some people get so caught up in what the bible says that they cant see anything else.
> 
> *For instance how many people think if you dont believe in Jesus you will go to hell. That never made sense to me.* Gandhi is going to hell because he's not christian.
> 
> I think if you glorify your god and live a life of service to others you will be rewarded in heaven regardless of the traditions and teachings you follow. But I'm so far from a bible thumper its not even funny.



We know that Jesus is the door but when and how everyone encounters Him is not known to us.  I know exactly what you mean and it's supported in scripture and taught in our catechism .  This is why I wish they would have a catholic sub-forum because there is certainly interest and no shortage of catholic women on LHCF but whenever there is a catholic doctrine given on a subject, the topic itself is not approached and siderailed because the catholic has to "prove" that they are a valid christian religion.  This could be avoided in a catholic forum where the subjects can be directly approached.  Shrugs...wishful thinking.  Wait...I'm going to formally ask yet again.


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## blazingthru (Mar 9, 2012)

BronxJazzy said:


> I just have to say this and I know that everyone will cluch their pearls but I dont believe everything in the bible.
> 
> The bible was written by man not god. It is interpretted in different ways by every reader pastor etc... Your relationship with god should be more about your walk with him and less about what the bible says. There are some rules and regulations in the bible that don't apply today and there were books in the bible that were left out.
> 
> ...


 
This is said so often and once upon a time I almost believe this as well, but to me the bible was just too complicated for man to do on their own. The bible is key to knowing God, it is the vessel which the holy spirit uses to guide you to the truth. it is misinterpreted because people do not take the time to research the bible for the answers to the questions. It requires research, which means time spent in reading and with prayer. Yes it was written by Man but they were guided by God it is his words. It was not written by any old man but holy men. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God." 2 Timothy 3:16. "Prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:21. "The scripture cannot be broken." John 10:35.

Jesus said, "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone." "It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." "It is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." Matthew 4:4, 7, 10. "Thy word is truth." John 17:17.   Jesus quoted Scripture when meeting the temptations of Satan. He also stated that the Bible is truth (John 17:17). Jesus often quoted Scripture as authority for the truth He was teaching.

The Bible says, "Thy word is true from the beginning." Psalms 119:160. "The Spirit . . . will guide you into all truth." John 16:13.

Bible predictions of things to happen in the future confirm the inspiration of Scripture as they come to pass. Notice the following examples of fulfilled Bible prophecies:

*A.* Four world empires to arise: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome (Daniel chapters 2, 7, 8).
*B.* Cyrus to be the warrior to capture Babylon (Isaiah 45:1-3).
*C.* After Babylon's destruction, it would never be inhabited again (Isaiah 13:19, 20; Jeremiah 51:37).
*D.* Egypt would never again have a commanding position among the nations (Ezekiel 29:14, 15; 30:12, 13).
*E.* Earth-shaking calamities and fear toward the end of time (Luke 21:25, 26).
*F.* Moral degeneracy and decline of spirituality in the last days (2 Timothy 3:1-5).

this is just some of the important facts about the bible and why its important that we regard it as the highest standard in which we should live our lives.


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## blazingthru (Mar 9, 2012)

Bright people who can understand and explain virtually anything are often quickly stopped in their tracks when they read the Bible. The reason is that spiritual things "are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:13, 14. The deep things of the Word will never be understood by a secular mind, no matter how brilliant.* Unless one honestly seeks an experience with God, he cannot understand the things of God*. The Holy Spirit, who explains the Bible (John 16:13; 14:26), is not understood by the carnal, secular mind. On the other hand, the humble, even uneducated Christian who studies the Bible receives amazing understanding from the Holy Spirit (Matthew 11:25; 1 Corinthians 2:9, 10).


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## blazingthru (Mar 9, 2012)

*The 66 books of the Bible were written:*
1. On three continents. 
2. In three languages. 
3. By about 40 different people (kings, shepherds, scientists, attorneys, an army general, fishermen, priests, and a physician). 
4. Over a period of about 1,500 years. 
5. On the most controversial subjects. 
6. By people who, in most cases, had never met.
7. By authors whose education and background varied greatly.

*Yet, though it seems totally inconceivable*,
1. The 66 books maintain harmony with each other.
2. Often new concepts on a subject are expressed, but these concepts do not undermine what other Bible writers say on the same subject. 

Talk about astounding!
Ask people who have viewed an identical event to each give a report of what happened. They will differ widely and will virtually always contradict each other in some way. Yet the Bible, penned by 40 writers over a 1,500-year period, reads as if written by one great mind. And, indeed, it was: "Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:21. The Holy Ghost "moved" them all. He is the real Bible Author. The four Gospels do sometimes differ in the way they report the same event, but they complement each other.


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## divya (Mar 9, 2012)

I believe in soul-sleep based on my understanding of the Scriptures.



Galadriel said:


> Are you a Seventh-Day Adventist (who believe everyone who worships on Sunday is sinning and need to worship on Saturdays)?



This is why people should not speak about other people's religious beliefs without being informed. Seventh-Day Adventists do NOT believe that worshiping on Sunday is a sin. We believe in keeping the Sabbath. You can worship any day of the week and should worship every day of the week.



Galadriel said:


> Why would the Holy Spirit lead SDA to worship on Saturday but everyone else on Sunday? .



Since when are SDA the only Sabbath-keepers? There are tons of Sabbatarian Christians.  



Health&hair28 said:


> Okay, so I am non-denominational. I do not subscribe to SDA, John Calvin or John Wesley. I go by God's Word.



And the rest don't? All the above base their beliefs on the Scriptures.


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## Galadriel (Mar 11, 2012)

auparavant said:


> We know that Jesus is the door but when and how everyone encounters Him is not known to us.  I know exactly what you mean and it's supported in scripture and taught in our catechism .  This is why I wish they would have a catholic sub-forum because there is certainly interest and no shortage of catholic women on LHCF but whenever there is a catholic doctrine given on a subject, the topic itself is not approached and siderailed because the catholic has to "prove" that they are a valid christian religion.  This could be avoided in a catholic forum where the subjects can be directly approached.  Shrugs...wishful thinking.  Wait...I'm going to formally ask yet again.



Now that is an interesting question indeed. "Outside the Church, there is no salvation." What do we mean by this? Dare I start another spin-off?


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## Galadriel (Mar 11, 2012)

divya said:


> This is why people should not speak about other people's religious beliefs without being informed. Seventh-Day Adventists do NOT believe that worshiping on Sunday is a sin. We believe in keeping the Sabbath. You can worship any day of the week and should worship every day of the week.



I used SDA as an example. SDA believe Saturday worship is their Sabbath.


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## Shimmie (Mar 11, 2012)

I just took notice of this thread and from what I've read, so far...  

This is all the more reason to *not* fulfill the requestor's request for a Catholic subforum.   

It is an open door for chaios...


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## divya (Mar 12, 2012)

This should be been the first thing addressed in my posts. Forgive me...



BronxJazzy said:


> I dont believe she is saying pray to a saint but that saints pray for you in heaven. In the rosary you ask the mother virgin mary to pray for you. *I believe the things shes saying are truth to catholics not christians.[*



"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that *whosoever* believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

I am certain that I will be standing on the sea of glass with Christians who professed Catholicism as well as other beliefs here on earth. God sees the heart of the individual to determine who is truly for or against Him.



auparavant said:


> We catholics don't advocate for anyone else to do what we do, but these are simply OUR beliefs and we proclaim our beliefs with the Nicene Creed weekly.  We are affirming our beliefs.  In other words, we are not saying that YOU should be praying to the saints.  She's explaining our biblical beliefs of our faith and how we do it.  I believe everyone is free to contribute how they interpret life after death on here, if I'm not mistaken.  It's not about telling YOU what to do but noting that these are catholic beliefs is going to be a given.  Now let me find that prayer to St. Jude.
> 
> I mean, lighten up, it doesn't have to turn into a "this is the truth" kinda thing every time because every single denomination is going to differ slightly because much of the au-dela is unknown on earth.  Feel me?   People asked, people said they were not sure, some people explained what they believe according to their faith etc..  Lighten up.  But this arguing and charge that it's not biblical is kinda ridiculous.  Same could be said back and that's not the purpose of this forum.  That's not needed here...people should be open to express themselves without spiritual mandates.  *If not, please have them open up a catholic and 7th day adventist one where these issues can be openly discussed without having to defend that ....it's a valid christian faith.*



Is the statement above what mainly triggered the request for a separate forum? People are going to feel how they feel, but I can understand how that comment clearly ostracizes Catholics.


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