# Caster Semenya Hopes To 'run Free' Again After Swiss Supreme Court Offers A Reprieve (Update)



## Leeda.the.Paladin

Switzerland's Federal Supreme Court has temporarily blocked a rule that kept track star Caster Semenya from competing, saying she should be allowed to race while her appeal proceeds. Track and field's international governing body has said Semenya can't compete in her signature event unless she lowers her testosterone levels.

The Swiss court ruled Monday that Semenya, an Olympic and world champion in the 800 meters, should be allowed to "compete without restriction in the female category" during her appeal. 

The International Association of Athletics Federations recently changed its rules, with the result requiring that Semenya, 28, lower her testosterone artificially before she can compete against other women in the 800 meters and other track events. 

"I am thankful to the Swiss judges for this decision," South Africa's Semenya said in a statement about the ruling. "I hope that following my appeal I will once again be able to run free."




*NATIONAL *
*'I Am A Woman': Track Star Caster Semenya Continues Her Fight To Compete As Female*
Semenya's attorney in the Swiss case, Dorothee Schramm of the Sidley Austin law firm, said the court had given Semenya "temporary protection."

"This is an important case that will have fundamental implications for the human rights of female athletes," Schramm said.

In the next step in the legal dispute, the Swiss Supreme Court will give the IAAF a chance to submit its arguments for maintaining its regulation that effectively banned Semenya — who has refused to manipulate her testosterone levels. The court will then issue what could be its final ruling on the IAAF's prohibition that blocks female athletes with high testosterone levels, even in cases where those elevations occur naturally. The IAAF has warned those female athletes that they need to drop their testosterone levels to be eligible to compete.

"The IAAF suggests this reduction be done by taking hormonal contraceptives, and it emphasizes that surgical changes are not required," as NPR's Laurel Wamsley has reported.




*SPORTS *
*Court Rules Against Caster Semenya, Says She Must Lower Testosterone To Compete*
Semenya's case has raised complicated questions, including the nature of holding separate competitions for men and women, how much of athletes' abilities might be due to hormones, and how to reconcile a blanket fairness policy with athletes who have what are called Differences of Sex Development, or DSDs — a term that also applies to people who are known as intersex.

As NPR's Melissa Block has reported:

"Caster Semenya was raised as a female and is legally female. She's fighting rules that affect DSD athletes who have what are typically male, XY chromosomes; who were born with internal testes; and have testosterone levels higher than the typical female range."

Last month, Semenya lost a separate case before the Court of Arbitration for Sport, which ruled that while the regulations regarding DSD athletes are discriminatory, they're also "necessary, reasonable and proportionate," as a way to ensure fair competition through regulating hormone levels.

Semenya contends that the IAAF's regulations unfairly discriminate against athletes on the basis of sex or gender, because they apply only to female athletes — and only to a subset of female athletes who have certain traits. 

The IAAF's regulations require female athletes in restricted events — from the 400m to the mile — to keep their testosterone below a certain level for at least six months before a competition, and to maintain it below that threshold as long as they want to be eligible to race.

The testosterone limit kicks in at 5 nmol/L (nanomoles per liter).

"Most females (including elite female athletes) have low levels of testosterone circulating naturally in their bodies (0.12 to 1.79 nmol/L in blood)," the IAAF said when it announced the new rule, "while after puberty the normal male range is much higher (7.7 – 29.4 nmol/L)."

When Semenya lost her appeal last month, the IAAF said she and other female athletes who have testosterone levels above 5 nmol/L had one week to bring them down, urging the women to begin their "suppressive treatment as soon as possible."

But instead of starting that treatment to preserve her eligibility, Semenya took her fight to another court.

"I am a woman and I am a world-class athlete," she said last week. "The IAAF will not drug me or stop me from being who I am."


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## dancinstallion

Naw homey, lower those Damn teststosterone levels first then we can talk about you running against the women in the 800m.


I was pissed when she was allowed to run the last time taking the medals away from other women. A trained runner, athlete, coach, spectator, know when the winner is winning because of something other than natural talent and hard work like steroids and high testosterone levels.

The last time I saw  Semenya run she coasted behind the leader then kicked it into third gear and sped past the leader. I said bullshi**, even the women record holders can't do that. She is a man only men can do that.

Found another race of her. Even the commentator is talking about her kick and how it is rare and never seen in the 800m.


FYI, A *kick* in a running race is the ability of some athletes to sprint at the end of an endurance oriented race. 

usually only seen in men races or long distance runners.


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## Crackers Phinn

"Most females (including elite female athletes) have low levels of testosterone circulating naturally in their bodies (0.12 to 1.79 nmol/L in blood)," the IAAF said when it announced the new rule, "while after puberty the normal male range is much higher (7.7 – 29.4 nmol/L)." When Semenya lost her appeal last month, the IAAF said she and other female athletes who have testosterone levels above 5 nmol/L had one week to bring them down, urging the women to begin their "suppressive treatment as soon as possible."

This is ridiculous.  Caster deserves the taste slapped outta it's mouth talking about sportsmanship while knowing good and damn well, it is exploiting a loophole that is screwing over an entire field of women athletes.     That ain't sisterhood, bruh.


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## itsallaboutattitude

Is Michael Phelps going to be required to produce lactic acid before he races?

ETA: shorten his arm span?


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## Crackers Phinn

itsallaboutattitude said:


> Is Michael Phelps going to be required to produce lactic acid before he races?
> 
> ETA: shorten his arm span?


Don't care.  Let the men he competes with deal with that.


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## itsallaboutattitude

I hope she wins her fight. They create these new rules for this specific Olympic event to target her. 

Was angry that they first violated her by making her submit to a gynecological exam after she submitted proof she was a woman. 

Then made her do all these tests. 

Now change the rules and want to chemically change her. 

Where is the list of female athletes that are to be chemically altered. 

B—-ds


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## Leeda.the.Paladin

itsallaboutattitude said:


> Is Michael Phelps going to be required to produce lactic acid before he races?
> 
> ETA: shorten his arm span?


That’s a little different, now. We all know that some athletes are genetically gifted and that contributes to their victories. But we specifically created different categories for men and women simply because of what testosterone does to the body. 

Being genetically predisposed to having a runner’s body is not at all the same thing as having more testosterone. I accept that she’s a woman, although she does have internal testes (right?), and I feel bad that she’s having this problem. But I also have to wonder what good her victory is when she has this unfair advantage. 

I mean, I think even if she followed the rules of trying to lower her testosterone, that the “damage” has been done.


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## Kanky

itsallaboutattitude said:


> Is Michael Phelps going to be required to produce lactic acid before he races?
> 
> ETA: shorten his arm span?


 Of course not. We don’t separate short arm people and long arm people and make them compete in different events.  We make men and women compete in different events because of the obvious physical advantages of being a man. World class female athletes cannot outperform mediocre make athletes. For example Serena Williams lost to some random tennis dude who didn’t even make the top 10 in his sport. 

I amazed that women are arguing to be unfairly forced to compete with men physically.


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## HappilyLiberal

itsallaboutattitude said:


> I hope she wins her fight. They create these new rules for this specific Olympic event to target her.
> 
> Was angry that they first violated her by making her submit to a gynecological exam after she submitted proof she was a woman.
> 
> Then made her do all these tests.
> 
> Now change the rules and want to chemically change her.
> 
> Where is the list of female athletes that are to be chemically altered.
> 
> B—-ds



Yeah...  this is about where I am on this.  Is it unfair to other women...  absolutely.  What gives me pause is that she was born that way.  She isn't using banned substances.  She didn't surgically or chemically alter herself.  So, to me, this is going down a slippery slope to require her to chemically alter her natural make-up.


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## metro_qt

Crackers Phinn said:


> Don't care.  Let the men he competes with deal with that.


I love your answer!!! LOLOLOL


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## metro_qt

This is going to sound super petty of me.
I can't think of any other answer.
Yes. Caster was born this way, so I guess she should, and is allowed to compete in any event she chooses, EVEN THOUGH HER TESTOSTERONE LEVELS ARE 5 TIMES THE LEVELS OF THE OTHER WOMEN....

so.... as other competitors... I would just say that they boycott the events she runs in.

She wants to run to win against other women... but you can't win, if there are no other women to run against.
(no rules have been violated anywhere)

I know. #petty.


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## Crackers Phinn

Kanky said:


> I amazed that women are arguing to be unfairly forced to compete with men physically.


I think this is one of those cases where folks are arguing on behalf of her being black first but there are black women who are getting screwed out of wins by this as well.   When you sacrifice the majority of women for the exception, where the hell does that leave us?   Caster is fighting for what's best for her regardless of who's expense it comes at, I wish other women would do the same to defend themselves.


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## SlimPickinz

metro_qt said:


> This is going to sound super petty of me.
> I can't think of any other answer.
> Yes. Caster was born this way, so I guess she should, and is allowed to compete in any event she chooses, EVEN THOUGH HER TESTOSTERONE LEVELS ARE 5 TIMES THE LEVELS OF THE OTHER WOMEN....
> 
> so.... as other competitors... I would just say that they boycott the events she runs in.
> 
> She wants to run to win against other women... but you can't win, if there are no other women to run against.
> (no rules have been violated anywhere)
> 
> I know. #petty.


This is how I feel about it. It's not her fault she was born with testes, and it is not her competitors' fault that she has a naturally unfair advantage. I would boycott any races that she was allowed to compete in. I know it's easier said than done because these women spend $$$$$ training and have dedicated their lives to perfecting their craft. But ehhhh gotta do what you gotta do to make it happen.


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## dancinstallion

Do ya'll hear yourselves. She was born with Testes!!!!. Female's, girls,  are not born with testes!!!!! She is intersexed. We don't have a category for that yet. 

She can run with the men who have high testosterone levels like her. She is much more like a man than she is a woman. She acts like a man, walks like a man, dresses like a man, is married to a woman. 

She only chooses to run against women cuz she can beat them.


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## HappilyLiberal

dancinstallion said:


> Do ya'll hear yourselves. She was born with Testes!!!!. Female's, girls,  are not born with testes!!!!! She is intersexed. We don't have a category for that yet.
> 
> She can run with the men who have high testosterone levels like her. She is more more like a man than she is a woman. *She acts like a man, walks like a man, dresses like a man, is married to a woman*.
> 
> She only chooses to run against women cuz she can beat them.


This I did not know...  Yeah...  she needs to go somewhere!


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## itsallaboutattitude

dancinstallion said:


> Do ya'll hear yourselves. She was born with Testes!!!!. Female's, girls,  are not born with testes!!!!! She is intersexed. We don't have a category for that yet.
> 
> She can run with the men who have high testosterone levels like her. She is more more like a man than she is a woman. She acts like a man, walks like a man, dresses like a man, is married to a woman.
> 
> She only chooses to run against women cuz she can beat them.




I’ve seen Castor lose races, she isn’t winning 100% of the time.

We only know she has internal testes instead of ovaries because of what the Olympic committee put her thru. Forcing her to take dna tests when a gynecologist exam showed she got a vagina.

This is not being done with all female Olympic sports.

Most intersex men and women have no idea unless they are trying to have a baby or some other medical conditions present themself.

I’ve seen a number of female gymnasts that I question, but the Olympic committee doesn’t require gymnasts to be tested for high testosterone. No other sport does this.

And the fact that MP body does not produce lactic acid like the rest of the folks he is competing against is the closest example I can provide since he voluntarily has participated in analysis of his body and why he performs so well. He too has a chemical advantage within his sport. Naturally occurring. But because it’s not estrogen no big deal.

Edit - corrected disadvantage to advantage in 3rd to last sentence.


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## Leeda.the.Paladin

I don’t think she should be forced to take meds but I agree a boycott by other participants would probably get the point across.

Caster can’t compete against men either because I’m pretty sure they’d out do her. Her testosterone doesn’t seem to be as high as a man, but higher than the average woman. She’s in a unfortunate middle ground.

She also has the option of moving up to the 5000m but I see that she refuses to do that. 



itsallaboutattitude said:


> I’ve seen Castor lose races, she isn’t winning 100% of the time.
> 
> We only know she has internal testes instead of ovaries because of what the Olympic committee put her thru. Forcing her to take dna tests when a gynecologist exam showed she got a vagina.
> 
> This is not being done with all female Olympic sports.
> 
> Most intersex men and women have no idea unless they are trying to have a baby or some other medical conditions present themself.
> 
> I’ve seen a number of female gymnasts that I question, but the Olympic committee doesn’t require gymnasts to be tested for high testosterone. No other sport does this.
> 
> And the fact that MP body does not produce lactic acid like the rest of the folks he is competing against is the closest example I can provide since he voluntarily has participated in analysis of his body and why he performs so well. He too has a chemical disadvantage within his sport. Naturally occurring. But because it’s not estrogen no big deal.



I’m confused by your example. What is his chemical disadvantage? His producing less lactic acid is a benefit, not a hindrance. Even if he were producing estrogen, no one (but him) would care because estrogen (as far as I know) does not give people a physical advantage in sports. Testosterone does.

Lots of things naturally occurring in MP and other athletes give them an advantage, most of the time.


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## Leeda.the.Paladin

HappilyLiberal said:


> This I did not know...  Yeah...  she needs to go somewhere!



Her wife is pretty.


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## HappilyLiberal

itsallaboutattitude said:


> I’ve seen Castor lose races, she isn’t winning 100% of the time.
> *I’ve seen a number of female gymnasts that I question, but the Olympic committee doesn’t require gymnasts to be tested for high testosterone. No other sport does this.*
> 
> And the fact that MP body does not produce lactic acid like the rest of the folks he is competing against is the closest example I can provide since he voluntarily has participated in analysis of his body and why he performs so well. He too has a chemical disadvantage within his sport. Naturally occurring. But because it’s not estrogen no big deal.



Because except for vault, and maybe floor, men are at an extreme disadvantage competing the women's events in gymnastics.  In this case, her excessive testosterone gives her an advantage in women's track and field.


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## dicapr

itsallaboutattitude said:


> I’ve seen Castor lose races, she isn’t winning 100% of the time.
> 
> We only know she has internal testes instead of ovaries because of what the Olympic committee put her thru. Forcing her to take dna tests when a gynecologist exam showed she got a vagina.
> 
> This is not being done with all female Olympic sports.
> 
> Most intersex men and women have no idea unless they are trying to have a baby or some other medical conditions present themself.
> 
> I’ve seen a number of female gymnasts that I question, but the Olympic committee doesn’t require gymnasts to be tested for high testosterone. No other sport does this.
> 
> And the fact that MP body does not produce lactic acid like the rest of the folks he is competing against is the closest example I can provide since he voluntarily has participated in analysis of his body and why he performs so well. He too has a chemical disadvantage within his sport. Naturally occurring. But because it’s not estrogen no big deal.



Not the same. She doesn’t have naturally high testosterone for a woman. If that was the case there wouldn’t be that much controversy surrounding her performing in female sports. 

Genetically she is XY and has a hormone  level that reflects that.


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## itsallaboutattitude

I don’t know who has put out into the public Castors full medical records. Where can I find that? 

I do not know for a fact that she is inter-sexed. For what I’ve read the assumption has been made she must be intersex cause she got a vagina but looks like a man. Oh and has high level of testosterone. 

After reading this article, I ask again what other female athlete’s have high level of testosterone. They keep putting Castor’s name out there and no one else. 


https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/id...ter-semenya-800-gender-race-intersex-athletes


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## itsallaboutattitude

@Leeda.the.Paladin

MP’s competition produce lactic acid while swimming he does not. 

Lactic acid build up is that burn in your muscles as you are over exerting yourself. 

“This can lead to injury and *lactic acid*building. *Lactic acid* is produced in your *muscles* and builds up during intense exercise. It can lead to painful, sore *muscles*. *Lactic acid* buildup due to exercise is usually temporary and not cause for a lot of concern, but it can affect your workouts by causing discomfort.”


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## Leeda.the.Paladin

itsallaboutattitude said:


> @Leeda.the.Paladin
> 
> MP’s competition produce lactic acid while swimming he does not.
> 
> Lactic acid build up is that burn in your muscles as you are over exerting yourself.
> 
> “This can lead to injury and *lactic acid*building. *Lactic acid* is produced in your *muscles* and builds up during intense exercise. It can lead to painful, sore *muscles*. *Lactic acid* buildup due to exercise is usually temporary and not cause for a lot of concern, but it can affect your workouts by causing discomfort.”


Yes I know. Maybe I’m confused on what yo’ure trying to say. You said in your other post that MP is at a chemical disadvantage. Did you mean he has an advantage? If so, I agree. Also, He does produce lactic acid, just not as much, is what I read. 

From this link: https://www.scienceabc.com/sports/michael-phelps-height-arms-torso-arm-span-feet-swimming.html

When human bodies performs any physical activity, they produce lactic acid. This substance causes fatigue and slows down muscle contraction. In order to get ready for another round of physical activity, our bodies need to flush out this acid. In order to do that, it needs a certain amount of recovery time.




Glucose is used up during workouts and after the energy is burned, it is converted to lactate.

Athletes often envy Phelps because it has been scientifically proven that his body produces only half the lactic acid that his rivals need to handle. This significantly reduces his recovery time.

Many, if not all, athletes face issues of tight muscles, muscle pulls, hamstrings and body stiffness in the lower body during their training. Although this can be tackled by stretching the target muscles with the use of dedicated equipment like stretching machines, Phelps has a natural advantage in this area too.


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## Leeda.the.Paladin

itsallaboutattitude said:


> I don’t know who has put out into the public Castors full medical records. Where can I find that?
> 
> I do not know for a fact that she is inter-sexed. For what I’ve read the assumption has been made she must be intersex cause she got a vagina but looks like a man. Oh and has high level of testosterone.
> 
> After reading this article, I ask again what other female athlete’s have high level of testosterone. They keep putting Castor’s name out there and no one else.
> 
> 
> https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/id...ter-semenya-800-gender-race-intersex-athletes


Ok, so from what I read from the CAS media report: https://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Media_Release_Semenya_ASA_IAAF_decision.pdf , the testosterone  rule being imposed on Caster is ONLY for people who are XY. She is XY. From what I understand, they excluded all women who are XX from this rule.


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## itsallaboutattitude

They also say they sent letters to all female athletes with high testosterone. Is one or more than one athlete.

I still stand that she was targeted cause at 18 she was young black and fast.

I, in my late 40’s, just had my hormones checked.

General population this is not a test being performed on everyone. Who, what determines what is normal range?

I’ve given the personal example of how my gall bladder processes food. The last time it was tested it was processing at 14%. My doc said you know this is extremely low and maybe a cause for your hospitalization.

We may need to remove it. However, this is just a guess, we are comparing your processing to other unhealthy patients. We don’t know if this is how your body works and has worked for years and really it is something else that is going on. 

It’s well over a decade since that test result and conversation. I still have my gall bladder doing what it does and I still don’t have a diagnosis for my hospitalization. No relapse. Well, I’ve gone to the ER but have not been admitted since then.

Also who is being used as a baseline for testosterone levels? White women? 



Leeda.the.Paladin said:


> Ok, so from what I read from the CAS media report: https://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Media_Release_Semenya_ASA_IAAF_decision.pdf , the testosterone  rule being imposed on Caster is ONLY for people who are XY. She is XY. From what I understand, they excluded all women who are XX from this rule.


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## dicapr

itsallaboutattitude said:


> They also say they sent letters to all female athletes with high testosterone. Is one or more than one athlete.
> 
> I still stand that she was targeted cause at 18 she was young black and fast.
> 
> I, in my late 40’s, just had my hormones checked.
> 
> General population this is not a test being performed on everyone. Who, what determines what is normal range?
> 
> I’ve given the personal example of how my gall bladder processes food. The last time it was tested it was processing at 14%. My doc said you know this is extremely low and maybe a cause for your hospitalization.
> 
> We may need to remove it. However, this is just a guess, we are comparing your processing to other unhealthy patients. We don’t know if this is how your body works and has worked for years and really it is something else that is going on.
> 
> It’s well over a decade since that test result and conversation. I still have my gall bladder doing what it does and I still don’t have a diagnosis for my hospitalization. No relapse. Well, I’ve gone to the ER but have not been admitted since then.
> 
> Also who is being used as a baseline for testosterone levels? White women?



The issue is that she is not genetically a woman. High testosterone in a woman is not equal to the testosterone levels achievable  in a genetic male. This is the same argument that many have with transgendered women competing with genetic women.  It isn’t discriminatory to acknowledge there are differences between men and women. 

Biologically it isn’t the same. This isn’t a woman with abnormally high testosterone results this is someone who is inter-sexed displaying hormonal levels more in line with their genetic makeup. 

No one is saying she can’t compete. She just needs to compete on a fair playing field.


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## dancinstallion

dicapr said:


> The issue is that she is not genetically a woman. High testosterone in a woman is not equal to the testosterone levels achievable  in a genetic male. This is the same argument that many have with transgendered women competing with genetic women.  It isn’t discriminatory to acknowledge there are differences between men and women.
> 
> Biologically it isn’t the same. This isn’t a woman with abnormally high testosterone results this is someone who is inter-sexed displaying hormonal levels more in line with their genetic makeup.
> 
> No one is saying she can’t compete. She just needs to compete on a fair playing field.



Very well put


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## yamilee21

Dutee Chand is an Indian runner in the same situation I think... and there is another Indian like this whose name I cannot remember. These rules were not made to specifically target Caster Semenya alone. They just need to go ahead and create an intersex category for some of these sports to make competition fair for all athletes.


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## winterinatl

HappilyLiberal said:


> Yeah...  this is about where I am on this.  Is it unfair to other women...  absolutely.  What gives me pause is that she was born that way.  She isn't using banned substances.  She didn't surgically or chemically alter herself.  So, to me, this is going down a slippery slope to require her to chemically alter her natural make-up.


Right. She is not a man masquerading as a woman. She’s a woman with high testosterone. I’d bet the Williams sisters have higher testosterone than average and many basketball players. Until just now that was an invisible athletic advantage. Like Phelps freaky dolphin body.

However. I’m not sold on altered men (trans women ) athletically competing with women.

Also, do we ever see trans men (born women) try to compete with men? How does that go?

ETA: I missed the testes and XY part.


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## ThirdEyeBeauty

How is she a woman (even intersexed)?  If she has XY AND testes AND working testosterone where does the woman part comes.  Did this person have an accident at birth and lost the male external parts?  Someone help me out.  Usually for intersex one of the above XY, testes, or testosterone has to not be there or not work properly.  The person even lives as a man (dresses, "acts", romantic interest, forehead ) fits a Cis man.  Must be a very unusual case even for an intersexed person.  Makes no sense to me.


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## Leeda.the.Paladin

ThirdEyeBeauty said:


> How is she a woman (even intersexed)?  If she has XY AND testes AND working testosterone where does the woman part comes.  Did this person have an accident at birth and lost the male external parts?  Someone help me out.  Usually for intersex one of the above XY, testes, or testosterone has to not be there or not work properly.  The person even lives as a man (dresses, "acts", romantic interest, forehead ) fits a Cis man.  Must be a very unusual case even for an intersexed person.  Makes no sense to me.


I think she has external female genitalia. She does not have ovaries or a uterus. And I guess she’s a woman because that’s what she identifies as.


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## dancinstallion

ThirdEyeBeauty said:


> How is she a woman (even intersexed)?  If she has XY AND testes AND working testosterone where does the woman part comes.  Did this person have an accident at birth and lost the male external parts?  Someone help me out.  Usually for intersex one of the above XY, testes, or testosterone has to not be there or not work properly.  The person even lives as a man (dresses, "acts", romantic interest, forehead ) fits a Cis man.  Must be a very unusual case even for an intersexed person.  Makes no sense to me.



I am so confused why people are acting like this okay. Because she has a vagina they are saying she is a woman. So I conceded and called her intersexed because I refuse to call her a woman because she is not. I forgot to add she is xy. 
She can claim what she wants to but Biologically she is not a woman period.


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## spacetygrss

I don't particularly care that she dresses or "acts like a man." Plenty of masculine of center women do that. And I'd hope that we don't have to explain women dating/marrying other women...in Pride month of all months.

I'm really only concerned with the fact that her testosterone is SO much higher than all of the non-intersex women in the field. That clearly gives her an unfair advantage. It sucks for her that there isn't a clear category to fit into, but I'm not sure what to do about that. What the officials SHOULDN'T do is  humiliate her while figuring it out.

I’ve actually cared for quite a few intersex individuals over the years. There are several different conditions that fall into a “grab bag.” It sounds like Caster Semanya May have Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (assuming that the info is true). It explains the XY, testis, vagina and the testosterone that is higher than women and lower than men. 5 -alpha reductase deficiency is a possibility too. Sexual development  is not as straightforward as many people think.

A good site to browse if you have time.
http://www.isna.org/faq/conditions
http://www.isna.org/faq/conditions/ais


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## Crackers Phinn

From a B.S. advocates article:
“Certain bodies are never allowed to be female, are never allowed to be women, are never allowed to just be,” Pidgeon Pagonis, an intersex activist and co-founder of the Intersex Justice Project, told Vox. *“What I think this comes down to is, Caster’s faster than white girls and she made them cry.”*

Look at all them white girls losing money and endorsements behind Caster. The narrative spin on this is disgusting.  If you don't understand irony, those women are black.


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## kblc06

While I agree that until her testosterone levels are lowered within a normal female range,  she should not be allowed to compete with women, unless women competing in her events were allowed to dope. However, the bolded is NOT accurate. In Caster's case, while she may have XY chromosomes,  her body is _insensitive_ to testosterone's effects. Androgen insensitivity syndrome or AIS can be complete or incomplete due to a malfunction of the SRY gene on the Y chromosome.

 Every fetus  essentially starts out as "beta female" with internal gonads and it's the activation or inactivation of anti-mullerian hormones that determines how these gonads develop (anti-mullerian hormone triggered by SRY gene to up-regulate androgen production causes the development of testes and destruction of the residual tissue that _would_ form the Fallopian tubes/ovaries). Due to some mutation, Caster's body did not respond completely, so while she has internal "testes" that may produce excessive androgens, the receptors on her body's cells don't respond as a male would in the presence of testosterone, rendering her effectively female.  Even if Caster were to take in _additional _testosterone via injections, her results as far as muscular development would never reach that of a man because her cellular receptors don't respond to androgens.  In hormonal conditions such as PCOS in women, overproduction of estrogen can inter-convert this excess estrogen to testosterone quite easily which is what causes excess hair, amenorrhea, and male type central obesity in women with the condition. 

A transgender female (MTF), would have both _normal_ responses in androgen production levels and and androgen receptor activity, thus making them effectively male. Sex hormones are weird and not exactly as cut and dry as they may seem. Testosterone and estrogen  readily convert back and forth and levels that are too low or too high even in normal cisgender male and females can cause systematic issues.



dicapr said:


> The i*ssue is that she is not genetically a woman. High testosterone in a woman is not equal to the testosterone levels achievable  in a genetic male*. This is the same argument that many have with transgendered women competing with genetic women.  It isn’t discriminatory to acknowledge there are differences between men and women.
> 
> Biologically it isn’t the same. This isn’t a woman with abnormally high testosterone results this is someone who is inter-sexed displaying hormonal levels more in line with their genetic makeup.
> 
> No one is saying she can’t compete. She just needs to compete on a fair playing field.


----------



## kblc06

I didn't see your reply-thank you for posting this! I really do not like how intersexed people and their narrative has been co-opted by the transgender movement. It is a separate, unique, _medical_ condition and intersex people can in fact be BORN with ambiguous genitalia/chromosomes.



spacetygrss said:


> I don't particularly care that she dresses or "acts like a man." Plenty of masculine of center women do that. And I'd hope that we don't have to explain women dating/marrying other women...in Pride month of all months.
> 
> I'm really only concerned with the fact that her testosterone is SO much higher than all of the non-intersex women in the field. That clearly gives her an unfair advantage. It sucks for her that there isn't a clear category to fit into, but I'm not sure what to do about that. What the officials SHOULDN'T do is  humiliate her while figuring it out.
> 
> I’ve actually cared for quite a few intersex individuals over the years. There are several different conditions that fall into a “grab bag.” It sounds like Caster Semanya May have Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (assuming that the info is true). It explains the XY, testis, vagina and the testosterone that is higher than women and lower than men. 5 -alpha reductase deficiency is a possibility too. Sexual development  is not as straightforward as many people think.
> 
> A good site to browse if you have time.
> http://www.isna.org/faq/conditions
> http://www.isna.org/faq/conditions/ais


----------



## Leeda.the.Paladin

I completely understand that. I just dont think she should be allowed to race with other women. Medical condition or no. And I have to wonder about the character of someone who finds out that they have such an advantage but still continue to race against women who have average levels. 

Even if she adhered to the medications to lower her testosterone, her body composition would still render her performance superior.


----------



## dicapr

kblc06 said:


> While I agree that until her testosterone levels are lowered within a normal female range,  she should not be allowed to compete with women, unless women competing in her events were allowed to dope. However, the bolded is NOT accurate. In Caster's case, while she may have XY chromosomes,  her body is _insensitive_ to testosterone's effects. Androgen insensitivity syndrome or AIS can be complete or incomplete due to a malfunction of the SRY gene on the Y chromosome.
> 
> Every fetus  essentially starts out as "beta female" with internal gonads and it's the activation or inactivation of anti-mullerian hormones that determines how these gonads develop (anti-mullerian hormone triggered by SRY gene to up-regulate androgen production causes the development of testes and destruction of the residual tissue that _would_ form the Fallopian tubes/ovaries). Due to some mutation, Caster's body did not respond completely, so while she has internal "testes" that may produce excessive androgens, the receptors on her body's cells don't respond as a male would in the presence of testosterone, rendering her effectively female.  Even if Caster were to take in _additional _testosterone via injections, her results as far as muscular development would never reach that of a man because her cellular receptors don't respond to androgens.  In hormonal conditions such as PCOS in women, overproduction of estrogen can inter-convert this excess estrogen to testosterone quite easily which is what causes excess hair, amenorrhea, and male type central obesity in women with the condition.
> 
> A transgender female (MTF), would have both _normal_ responses in androgen production levels and and androgen receptor activity, thus making them effectively male. Sex hormones are weird and not exactly as cut and dry as they may seem. Testosterone and estrogen  readily convert back and forth and levels that are too low or too high even in normal cisgender male and females can cause systematic issues.



No one is saying she has a normal response like a man. What is being said is that even her lower response is higher than a female. Taking steroids would give a woman an advantage but it doesn’t mean they could compete with men. The same with this situation. If it wasn’t to her advantage she would take the pills and compete. She at least suspects that having a normal hormonal level for a woman will impact her performance.

ETA:  Her testosterone level has to be almost 3Xs that of a normal woman for them to see it as an unfair advantage.


----------



## ThirdEyeBeauty

spacetygrss said:


> I don't particularly care that she dresses or "acts like a man." Plenty of masculine of center women do that. And I'd hope that we don't have to explain women dating/marrying other women...in Pride month of all months.


 I, too, don't care.  I said all of that to make my point clearer.   It's the cumulative effect that I wanted to point out.  If no one said a word, most people would assumed she was a man without a doubt.


----------



## spacetygrss

ThirdEyeBeauty said:


> I, too, don't care.  I said all of that to make my point clearer.   It's the cumulative effect that I wanted to point out.  If no one said a word, most people would assumed she was a man without a doubt.


Yeah.... Probably depends on who you see regularly. She literally looks like a MOC woman or androgynous person to me. Shrug. 

Regardless, she's intersex. She's in a really unfortunate spot because she really DOES have an unfair advantage against non-intersex women and is disadvantaged against men.
I hope that they can come up with something that is fair and kind.


----------



## ThirdEyeBeauty

spacetygrss said:


> I’ve actually cared for quite a few intersex individuals over the years. There are several different conditions that fall into a “grab bag.” It sounds like Caster Semanya May have Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (assuming that the info is true). It explains the XY, testis, vagina and the testosterone that is higher than women and lower than men. 5 -alpha reductase deficiency is a possibility too. Sexual development is not as straightforward as many people think.


Ah, I  see your familiarity with this type of intersex.  Is it possible that she fits the 5-alpha reductase deficiency type more than AIS?  Help me with this: for either type the high testosterone will still make it a possibility that she can have either disorder correct?  That's where I was somewhat confused if the information given about her is correct.


----------



## spacetygrss

ThirdEyeBeauty said:


> Ah, I  see your familiarity with this type of intersex.  Is it possible that she fits the 5-alpha reductase deficiency type more than AIS?  Help me with this: for either type the high testosterone will still make it a possibility that she can have either disorder correct?  That's where I was somewhat confused if the information given about her is correct.


Yes, she could have either, but without having her medical info it's not _really_ possible to know which.
The basic way that I quickly separate them in my head:
People with 5-ARDS who appear female at birth often start to undergo "virilization" at puberty due to their increased testosterone (voice deepens, clitoris enlarges, testicles descend, grow facial hair, etc) because their issue is the lack of the enzyme that converts testosterone to DHT.
On the other hand, people with AIS are insensitive to testosterone. So even with the increased testosterone, they don't undergo that same virilization at puberty.
Both groups of people can appear female at birth (assuming that they weren't born with ambiguous genitalia) and both will have amenarche (no period). The Physician then has to draw labs and perform genetic tests to distinguish the two.

HTH.

ETA: The biggest point is that there has to be a thorough physical exam and lab/genetic tests. Without that, it's all just speculation.


----------



## guudhair

No one should have (or be allowed) to have suppressive treatments to compete in women sports.  The women participating in those sports should be boycotting...every woman should be boycotting this.

Separate categories for sports, among other things, need to be created for intersex and trans people.  Until that happens, tests for testosterone levels should be required in women sports.  I feel very weird typing this...


----------



## ThirdEyeBeauty

guudhair said:


> No one should have (or be allowed) to have suppressive treatments to compete in women sports.  The women participating in those sports should be boycotting...every woman should be boycotting this.
> 
> Separate categories for sports, among other things, need to be created for intersex and trans people.  Until that happens, tests for testosterone levels should be required in women sports.  I feel very weird typing this...


There should be an option for a race for people to compete will anyone/everyone.


----------



## VictoriousBrownFlower

Goodness this predicament is sad all around. Honestly i would say her best bet is to take hormones to regulate her testosterone to that of a females that way it's an even playing field. She can't really compete with other women if her testosterone is so high and can't compete with men because it's not high enough. So just lower the levels and train extra hard like the rest of them.


----------



## guudhair

ThirdEyeBeauty said:


> There should be an option for a race for people to compete will anyone/everyone.



A co-ed “option” would be ok for those who want to compete with anyone/everyone.  What I am referring to is a mandatory category that is specifically for intersex and trans people to compete in.  Just like the Special Olympics was created.


----------



## guudhair

VictoriousBrownFlower said:


> Honestly i would say her best bet is to take hormones to regulate her testosterone to that of a females that way it's an even playing field.



I don’t understand how it would be an even playing field.


----------



## VictoriousBrownFlower

guudhair said:


> I don’t understand how it would be an even playing field.


thats as close as it would get in this situation. Make her testosterone the same as other women. If she wants to play with women then she should have the same hormone levels because honestly that's the only thing that gives her a leg up (so I'm assuming). She has the body type and muscle density she has because of her high levels of testosterone (right?). Testosterone is what gives her added strength and energy not her chromosomes so lower them. Its either that or do a intersexed division. She can't perform with other female athletes the way she is right now. What else can she do?


----------



## guudhair

VictoriousBrownFlower said:


> What else can she do?



Compete with others like her.  Intersex and trans people should not get to decide if they want to compete in women sports.  That shouldn’t even be an option.


----------



## VictoriousBrownFlower

guudhair said:


> Compete with others like her.  Intersex and trans people should not get to decide if they want to compete in women sports.  That shouldn’t even be an option.


i agree but i think there'd be alot of hell to take on doing something like that.

Heres a great vid on this discussion by two trangender women. (i admit I'm still watching it though)


----------



## VictoriousBrownFlower

@guudhair it supports ur theory


----------



## dancinstallion

VictoriousBrownFlower said:


> i agree but i think there'd be alot of hell to take on doing something like that.
> 
> Heres a great vid on this discussion by two trangender women. (i admit I'm still watching it though)




So why can't it be simple. Xx compete against Xx and xy compete against xy like one of them said. 

The other guy is not making sense.


----------



## ThirdEyeBeauty

spacetygrss said:


> Yes, she could have either, but without having her medical info it's not _really_ possible to know which.
> The basic way that I quickly separate them in my head:
> People with 5-ARDS who appear female at birth often start to undergo "virilization" at puberty due to their increased testosterone (voice deepens, clitoris enlarges, testicles descend, grow facial hair, etc) because their issue is the lack of the enzyme that converts testosterone to DHT.
> On the other hand, people with AIS are insensitive to testosterone. So even with the increased testosterone, they don't undergo that same virilization at puberty.
> Both groups of people can appear female at birth (assuming that they weren't born with ambiguous genitalia) and both will have amenarche (no period). The Physician then has to draw labs and perform genetic tests to distinguish the two.
> 
> HTH.
> 
> ETA: The biggest point is that there has to be a thorough physical exam and lab/genetic tests. Without that, it's all just speculation.


Also with the complete form of AIS, without  intervention, the person at puberty develops a typical female (external) phenotype correct? That's how I  think about AIS and feel she is probably closer to 5-ARDS or _maybe_ an incomplete AIS.  I cannot think of any other intersex disorder she would have based on what was said but I  know there are rare disorders and even rarer disorders.


----------



## spacetygrss

ThirdEyeBeauty said:


> Also with the complete form of AIS, without  intervention, the person at puberty develops a typical female (external) phenotype correct? That's how I  think about AIS and feel she is probably closer to 5-ARDS or _maybe_ an incomplete AIS.  I cannot think of any other intersex disorder she would have based on what was said but I  know there are rare disorders and even rarer disorders.


Yes. They can develop breasts. However, with as athletic as she is, she may not have a lot of breast tissue unless she were increase her body fat. It really is impossible to do anything other than speculate without labs and a true history & physical exam.


----------



## itsallaboutattitude

Are those finals or elinination rounds before a final race?


Crackers Phinn said:


> From a B.S. advocates article:
> “Certain bodies are never allowed to be female, are never allowed to be women, are never allowed to just be,” Pidgeon Pagonis, an intersex activist and co-founder of the Intersex Justice Project, told Vox. *“What I think this comes down to is, Caster’s faster than white girls and she made them cry.”*
> 
> Look at all them white girls losing money and endorsements behind Caster. The narrative spin on this is disgusting.  If you don't understand irony, those women are black.


----------



## Crackers Phinn

itsallaboutattitude said:


> Are those finals or elinination rounds before a final race?


I have no idea. Does it matter if the end result is still the same?


----------



## Laela




----------



## Leeda.the.Paladin

Laela said:


>


After reading up on her, it looks like people were suspicious of her as well. 

If people want to make Caster into a martyr and be her champion then so be it. It’s an interesting world.


----------



## laurend

I just feel sorry for her and the women who are denied medals because of her. She should not run with women, whom she will beat, and she should not run with men, who will beat her. Semenya should be in a race for intersex people but they are not enough around to create a race category at these events.


----------



## oneastrocurlie

Leeda.the.Paladin said:


> I think she has external female genitalia. She does not have ovaries or a uterus. And I guess she’s a woman because that’s what she identifies as.



The human body does some interesting stuff.


----------



## nyeredzi

There's really no category she can compete in fairly. Her levels aren't as high as men, especially not male athletes. But they're too high for women. It sucks for her, but it's also not fair and sucky for the women she competes against


----------



## Laela

They have a legitimate point.. just another angle of this issue that won't go away, simply because we choose to ignore it.



Leeda.the.Paladin said:


> After reading up on her, it looks like people were suspicious of her as well.
> 
> *If people want to* make Caster into a martyr and* be her champion then so be i*t. It’s an interesting world.


----------



## Leeda.the.Paladin

Laela said:


> They have a legitimate point.. just another angle of this issue that won't go away, simply because we choose to ignore it.


Are we ignoring it or choosing to focus on what’s relevant to the issue?

If the issue is racial bias in sports , then they have a point.

But if the issue is should intersexed individuals compete against non intersexed women, then I don’t see the point.


----------



## dicapr

Leeda.the.Paladin said:


> Are we ignoring it or choosing to focus on what’s relevant to the issue?
> 
> If the issue is racial bias in sports , then they have a point.
> 
> But if the issue is should intersexed individuals compete against non intersexed women, then I don’t see the point.



Sometimes people get tunnel vision about issues of black and white. Yes the issue overall is unfair on every side. But they are not picking on Castor because of her race. 

They have offered her a way to continue to compete and she has rejected it (which is her prerogative). 

 But at the same time should the non intersexed women just accept that they are going to have to try to compete with someone who is a genetic male and wants to continue to benefit from their high testosterone issues?

There is no way to resolve this and make everyone happy.


----------



## Crackers Phinn

dicapr said:


> But at the same time should the non intersexed women just accept that they are going to have to try to compete with someone who is a genetic male and wants to continue to benefit from their high testosterone issues?


To me this is the most important point. Caster knows that she's gaming the system and wants to continue doing so at the expense of who knows how many women athletes.


----------



## Laela

For those in support of her actions, the issue include her race; if the organization is changing rules abused by white intersexed runners because of Caster, then the racial component is already there, and they choose to address it just as important or relevant as her case. That's why I posted that Tweet.
I feel for her either way because her genetic "advantage" is natural and she's getting flak for choosing not to have it altered although there is no viable alternative. It's a sad situation all around.




Leeda.the.Paladin said:


> Are we ignoring it or choosing to focus on what’s relevant to the issue?
> 
> If the issue is racial bias in sports , then they have a point.
> 
> But if the issue is should intersexed individuals compete against non intersexed women, then I don’t see the point.


----------



## dicapr

Laela said:


> For those in support of her actions, the issue include her race; if the organization is changing rules abused by white intersexed runners because of Caster, then the racial component is already there, and they choose to address it just as important or relevant as her case. That's why I posted that Tweet.
> I feel for her either way because her genetic "advantage" is natural and she's getting flak for choosing not to have it altered although there is no viable alternative. It's a sad situation all around.



The cases seem similar but the really aren’t. Individuals suspected that the white athlete was taking steroids and that was why she looked masculine. It could have been that in 1983 the idea of a man passing as a woman was less popular than the idea that steroids were to blame. So while posting side by side pictures makes it appear racial the controversy surrounding both athletes is not the same.


----------



## HappilyLiberal

dicapr said:


> The cases seem similar but the really aren’t. Individuals suspected that the white athlete was taking steroids and that was why she looked masculine. It could have been that in 1983 the idea of a man passing as a woman was less popular than the idea that steroids were to blame. So while posting side by side pictures makes it appear racial the controversy surrounding both athletes is not the same.


Plus, where is the white runner from?  East Germany had a full scale doping system in place that was used on their female athletes--many times without their knowledge or consent.  Those women later had problems conceiving because of this.  So, those cases are very different.


----------



## Leeda.the.Paladin

*Caster Semenya considered boycott, says she’s blocked from Rabat meet*
OlympicTalk
8 hours ago



*Caster Semenya *said she has been denied entry into Sunday’s Diamond League meet in Rabat, Morocco, even though she is eligible to race her preferred distances while a Swiss supreme court decides on her appeal against the IAAF’s new rules for female events.






Semenya also said she considered boycotting racing the 800m unless the rule is lifted for all affected runners.

“I am a woman, but the IAAF has again tried to stop me from running the way I was born,” Semenya said in the release. “The IAAF questions my sex, causes me great pain and required me to take hormonal drugs that made me feel constantly sick and unable to focus for many years. No other woman should be forced to go through this in order to have the same right that all women have – to do what we love and run the way we were born.”

The two-time Olympic 800m champion’s team said she was told Tuesday that the president of the Moroccan track and field federation denied her from entering the 800m in Sunday’s meet.

“Caster is currently seeking clarity on the specific reasons for that decision, and she urges the IAAF to ensure its member federations comply with the law and the Supreme Court’s orders,” according to a press release.

The given media contact for the Rabat meet did not respond to an email last week asking if Semenya would be invited to race after the Swiss court made her eligible for the time being to race her best events — from the 400m through the mile. The same contact did not respond to a follow-up email Thursday afternoon following Semenya’s press release.

“It should be noted that the Diamond League meetings are not organized by the IAAF,” the IAAF said in a statement later Thursday. “Entry for any athlete into a Diamond League meeting is by invitation only from the meeting organizer.”





Semenya’s team also said the Swiss court denied an IAAF request to reimpose the regulations. The IAAF said it “continues to comply with” the Swiss court order to suspend the testosterone rule, strictly for Semenya.

“No woman should be subjected to these rules,” Semenya said in the release. “I thought hard about not running the 800m in solidarity unless all women can run free. But I will run now to show the IAAF that they cannot drug us.”

Semenya is also seeking to change her event at the Pre Classic on June 30 from the 3000m to the 800m, according to the release.

“As one of the premier track and field meets in the World, the Prefontaine Classic always strives to have the top athletes in attendance,” a meet spokesperson said when asked if Semenya will be allowed in the 800m. “If an athlete has a time/mark that is among the best in the World and is eligible in the eyes of the sports’ governing bodies, then yes, they will be considered for an invite to the Prefontaine Classic.”


----------



## ThirdEyeBeauty

Leeda.the.Paladin said:


> No other woman should be forced to go through this in order to have the same right that all women have – to do what we love and run the way we were born.”


A unisex race is needed for professionals.  That should be implemented immediately so that she can continue the profession she loves.

I am feeling some kind of way about her quote. It sounds too scripted--too typical, as if this is a setup.  Usually I am neutral especially for a person with intersex disorder but this here *almost* sounds like the agenda of transexual people.


----------



## dicapr

ThirdEyeBeauty said:


> A unisex race is needed for professionals.  That should be implemented immediately so that she can continue the profession she loves.
> 
> I am feeling some kind of way about her quote. It sounds too scripted--too typical, as if this is a setup.  Usually I am neutral especially for a person with intersex disorder but this here *almost* sounds like the agenda of transexual people.



I feel for her but I’m not here for her quote. It definitely sounds like she has another agenda. Besides other intersexed individuals the only other women this would apply to would be trans women.  We don’t need transwomen completing against biological women because they are running the way they were born.


----------



## ThirdEyeBeauty

dicapr said:


> I feel for her but I’m not here for her quote. It definitely sounds like she has another agenda. Besides other intersexed individuals the only other women this would apply to would be trans women.  We don’t need transwomen completing against biological women because they are running the way they were born.


It's difficult to tell if she is fighting for her own rights (I would say put me on any available race and let's see how I do and go from there).  No, she is doing this double talk as if someone made her the spokesperson for transgendered people when she is not.  I hope she knows someone is _using_ her.


----------



## dicapr

ThirdEyeBeauty said:


> It's difficult to tell if she is fighting for her own rights (I would say put me on any available race and let's see how I do and go from there).  No, she is doing this double talk as if someone made her the spokesperson for transgendered people when she is not.  I hope she knows someone is _using_ her.



I don’t think someone is using her. She is a member of the LGBTQ community and she probably feels as if she is fighting for all non-biological women.

However I think many people see intersexed individuals as a special case because they are born phenotypically female with XY chromosomes.


----------



## guudhair

dicapr said:


> We don’t need transwomen completing against biological women because they are running the way they were born.



Intersex people are running the way they were born as well...and in Caster’s case, with extra testosterone.  Neither should be competing against women and girls.  

Intersex and trans people should be included in special sporting groups for schools/Special Olympics until the organization figures out something else other than allowing them to participate in events for women and girls.


----------



## ThirdEyeBeauty

*LGBTQI* 

I briefly just saw part of a commercial on YouTube (I hate commercials being on YouTube btw) and the actress (actor?) mentioned being part of the LGBTQI community.  Is this new? How long has "I" been a part of the community and do you think that is fair for them or that they want to be a part of the community?


----------



## dancinstallion

This is the point. Biologically he is a male not a female with high testosterone. I am glad they are fighting his appeal.

https://dailycaller.com/2019/06/19/caster-semenya-biologically-male-iaaf/


*Women’s Olympic Champion Caster Semenya Is ‘Biologically Male,’ IAAF Says*


*June 19th, 2019*
*



*
*Caster Semenya of South Africa looks on prior to competing in the Women's 800 metres during the IAAF Diamond League event at the Khalifa International Stadium on May 03, 2019 in Doha, Qatar. (Francois Nel/Getty Images)*
*Women’s Olympic champion Caster Semenya is a biological male, the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF), the world’s largest sports governing body, argued in court.*

*Semenya, the South African runner who dominated the female competition in the women’s 800M at the 2016 London Olympics, is fighting an IAAF requirement that biologically male runners suppress their testosterone below a certain level in order to compete in female events.*





*Media reporting on the subject has often left outthe fact that the IAAF’s rule only applies to runners with male chromosomes rather than female runners with high testosterone levels.*

*The IAAF called the requirement “an extremely progressive compromise” between protecting the integrity of women’s sports and accommodating “certain biologically male athletes with female gender identities” like Semenya who want to compete in women’s sports, the court documents show.*

*The IAAF added that “there are some contexts where biology has to trump identity.” (RELATED: Every Democratic 2020 Frontrunner Supports Bill Forcing Male Athletes Into Girls’ Sports)*


*



*
*Semenya at France’s LNA Pro Athle Tour meeting on June 11, 2019 (GEOFFROY VAN DER HASSELT/AFP/Getty Images)*

*Semenya reportedly has “5-alpha reductase deficiency” (5-ARD), a medical condition affecting male sexual development.*


*Semenya’s case, the IAAF reiterated, “is not about biological females and how their bodies respond to testosterone; it is about biological males with 5-ARD (and other [male sexual development disorders]), how their bodies respond to testosterone, and the performance advantages of that response when they compete against biological females.”*

*Athletes with 5-ARD are “biologically indistinguishable… in all relevant aspects” from typical male athletes, with the only major difference being the “size and shape of their external genitals,” the IAAF argued.*

*



*
*Semenya celebrates winning the Women’s 800 meters during the IAAF Diamond League event at the Khalifa International Stadium on May 03, 2019 in Doha, Qatar. (Francois Nel/Getty Images)*

*“People with this condition are genetically male, with one X and one Y chromosome in each cell, and they have male gonads (testes),” the U.S. National Library of Medicine’s explainer on 5-ARD states. “Their bodies, however, do not produce enough of a hormone called dihydrotestosterone (DHT). DHT has a critical role in male sexual development, and a shortage of this hormone disrupts the formation of the external sex organs before birth.”*

*The Switzerland-based Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) ruled in favor of the IAAF last month but before Tuesday, “CAS had previously released only short excerpts of the final verdict when it was announced last month,” the Associated Press reported.*


*Semenya appealed the verdict to the Federal Supreme Court of Switzerland, which announced June 3 that it was suspending the IAAF’s rule while it considers Semenya’s appeal*


----------



## dancinstallion

This is also a good point. So let's call a spade a spade. This isn't affecting biological women. It is for men who claim they are female.

*Media reporting on the subject has often left out the fact that the IAAF’s rule only applies to runners with male chromosomes rather than female runners with high testosterone levels.*


----------



## dancinstallion

ThirdEyeBeauty said:


> Also with the complete form of AIS, without  intervention, the person at puberty develops a typical female (external) phenotype correct? That's how I  think about AIS and feel she is probably closer to 5-ARDS or _maybe_ an incomplete AIS.  I cannot think of any other intersex disorder she would have based on what was said but I  know there are rare disorders and even rarer disorders.



Caster has 5-ARDS like you suspected.


----------



## Leeda.the.Paladin

*I’d compare my life with Jesus, I've been crucified’ – Semenya on IAAF testosterone battle *
Published time: 1 Jul, 2019 12:37 
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South African runner Caster Semenya says she has been “crucified” over her battle with the IAAF regarding testosterone levels in female athletes.

Two-time Olympic 800m champion Semenya, 28, is engaged in a fight with the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) over proposed rules that would require competitors with differences of sexual development (DSD) to limit testosterone levels, should they wish to take part in track events from 400m to the mile.

The ruling is seen as being prompted by Semenya, who is believed to have internal testes and has naturally high levels of testosterone.

READ MORE: 'They used me as a human guinea pig': Caster Semenya slams IAAF over testosterone reduction drugs

The South African has dominated at the 800m since bursting onto the scene at the World Championships in Berlin a decade ago, but under the new rulings she would be required to take testosterone-reducing medication.

A Swiss federal court has temporarily suspended the IAAF’s ruling, meaning she can compete while an appeal is pending, and Semenya won the 800m at the Prefontaine Classic in Stanford, California, over the weekend.





Semenya in action on Sunday. © Getty Images / AFP / Ezra Shaw
Afterwards, she told the BBC that she was being _“crucified”_ amid her battle with the IAAF and said it was destroying her _“physically and mentally."_

_"I cannot say I've been victimized. I think I set an example,”_ she said.  

_“I think I'm in this world for a reason. I think I am a living testimony. I would say I'm a savior._

_"If you read the Bible you will understand what I'm talking about. If I may compare my life, I would compare my life with Jesus. I've been crucified, I've been done bad._

_"But at the end of the day I'm still here, am still alive. I am still standing,”_ she added defiantly.

ALSO ON RT.COM‘This is biology, not gender identity’: IAAF submits response to Swiss court on Caster Semenya case
Semenya questioned the need for the new IAAF rules, saying: _"It's very simple here, when you introduced sports, you never said people with differences, cannot run with other people._

_“You do not say we categorize men because they have got long legs, they have got long arms. They have those long strides. Others are short._

_“You don't categorize them like that. You categorise them as women and men.”_

She also vowed that if she ultimately lost her appeal against the IAAF plans, she would not run at this year’s World Championships in Doha, Qatar.

_"If I'm not running 800m, I'm not running in the world championships. My goals are to defend my world title. So if I'm not allowed I'm not allowed._

_“I'm just going to take a vacation and then come back next year,"_ she added.

The IAAF had initially been backed by the Court of Arbitration for Sport over its new rules, and submitted a response to the Swiss federal court at the end of June. It has said it is hoping for a _“swift”_ resolution to the case.

_"The IAAF_ will _continue to defend its DSD Regulations and the CAS Award… because it continues to believe in equal rights and opportunities for all women and girls in our sport today and in the future,” _it said.


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## Leeda.the.Paladin

Leeda.the.Paladin said:


> _I think I'm in this world for a reason. I think I am a living testimony. I would say I'm a savior._
> 
> _"If you read the Bible you will understand what I'm talking about. If I may compare my life, I would compare my life with Jesus. I've been crucified, I've been done bad._


Wow.


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## Leeda.the.Paladin

Sorry y’all, I feel down a rabbit hole for the last 30 minutes. Here’s another transgendered athlete that was subpar as a male runner but has dominated the women’s.

*An Athlete Who Ran NCAA Track As A Man For 3 Years Just Won An NCAA Women’s Title*

 




*By Robert Johnson
May 28, 2019*

Over Memorial Day weekend, everyone who cares about the future of women’s sport saw their worst fears become a reality.

Transgender woman *CeCe Telfer*, who was born and raised as *Craig Telfer* and competed on the Franklin Pierce University men’s track and field team during her first three years of college, won the women’s 400-meter hurdles national title at the 2019 NCAA Division II Outdoor Track & Field Championships. Telfer dominated the competition, winning in 57.53 as second place was way back in 59.21.

Prior to joining the women’s team this season, Telfer was a mediocre DII athlete who never came close to making it to nationals in the men’s category. In 2016 and 2017, Telfer ranked 200th and 390th, respectively, among DII men in the 400 hurdles (Telfer didn’t run outdoor track in 2018 as either a man or woman). Now she’s the national champion in the event simply because she switched her gender (Telfer’s coach told us that even though she competed on the men’s team her first three years, her gender fluidity was present from her freshman year).

The fact that Telfer can change her gender and immediately become a national champion is proof positive as to why women’s sports needs protection. Telfer ran slightly faster in the 400 hurdles competing as a man (57.34) than as a woman (57.53), even though the men’s hurdles are six inches taller than the women’s hurdles. Yet when Telfer ran 57.34 as a man, she didn’t even score at her conference meet — she was just 10th at the Northeast-10 Outdoor Track and Field Championships in 2016. Now she’s the national champion.

Ostensibly, the NCAA has a policy in place to protect cisgender women athletes and prevent male-to-female transgender athletes from dominating the women’s category. The NCAA transgender handbook states that an MTF transgender athlete must take “one calendar year of testosterone suppression treatment” in order to compete in the women’s category, but the vagueness of that statement is remarkable. There is no mention of a minimum testosterone level that must be achieved or a minimum level of medication that must be taken, nor how those levels are to be monitored. Contrast that to the International Olympic Committee, which requires that an MTF transgender athlete “must demonstrate that her total testosterone level in serum has been below 10nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to her first competition.”

We reached out to the NCAA to ask for specifics on their transgender policy, and whether it is actually enforced with testing. They referred us to the the transgender handbook mentioned above and said we could expect a more detailed response on Wednesday.




Twitter photo via @NCAADII

Medical physicist *Joanna Harper,* who has served as an adviser to the IOC on transgender issues and has made the transition from male to female herself, said the NCAA doesn’t have a set limit for testosterone for trans women, nor does she believe there is consistent verification of T levels. “The NCAA has not set a maximum T level for trans women, and I don’t believe that they do any independent verification of hormone levels,” said Harper.  

The theory goes that if one greatly reduces their testosterone, their performances in sport should decline significantly. Harper told me one would expect roughly a 10% decrease in performance for flat events (she wasn’t sure it would be the great in the hurdles due to the difference in hurdle heights). Yet Telfer is actually running faster in a few flat events as a woman as compared to what she ran as a man. Her 60-meter personal best as a man was 7.67. As a woman, it’s 7.63. Her flat 400-meter pb was 55.77 as a man and it’s 54.41 as a woman.

However, her coach *Zach Emerson *said that anyone looking only at Telfer’s times to try to see if the NCAA’s rules on testosterone suppression for MTF transgender athletes is effective would be making a mistake. He said that the difference between Telfer’s work ethic this year compared to her first three was vast.

“She’s been been incredibly motivated this year and I think the transition one million percent had something to do with that. It’s like night and day as far as what she was willing to do as an athlete and how committed she was,” said Emerson, who indicated that while Telfer always had a large presence on the team, she often only showed up to practice a couple of times a week until this year. As a coach, he said she wasn’t an athlete that he could rely on. “You couldn’t look at her during her first three years and say that’s an athlete doing their best. As a coach, I could not do that.”

Frustrated by the fact that track meets were the only place in her life where she was referred to a man, Telfer quit the team in January 2018 before coming back out for the women’s team in October with renewed motivation. Since coming back out for the women’s team, Emerson said Telfer has been a “model athlete” who has not missed a single day of practice, one who hit the weight room for the first time, one who stayed on top of her studies and one who made sure she got ample sleep.


Video of Telfer from earlier in the year
“She did phenomenally well [in doing all that we asked her this year] and has been a completely different, motivated athlete,” said Emerson. “It’s only worth doing if she does her best. She made that very, very clear at the start of this year — that she wants to do this because she loves the sport, she wants to do well, and she wants to be genuine to herself. And we held her accountable, saying, ‘You have to be an example for everybody else on our team — let alone everybody else [that is paying attention].’”

While Emerson admitted he doesn’t know how he would have reacted if he were a rival coach, he said he’s very proud of what Telfer has accomplished. “People can have opinions on that all they want, but at the end of the day as a coach, I have to be proud of someone that works their ass off and does the things that I ask and is a good teammate. You have to be proud of those things.”

—————
Another article where she says that being transgendered actually puts her at a disadvantage 

*NCAA champion CeCe Telfer says ‘I have no benefit’ by being trans*
1
The Franklin Pierce University graduate breaks her silence to respond to detractors who claim she has a physical advantage over other women.

By Dawn Ennis  Jun 3, 2019, 10:05am PDTSHARE




CeCe Telfer
 Screengrab via Twitter/ NCAA Division II
Picture the scene: the outdoor track at Javelina Stadium on the campus of Texas A&M University in Kingsville, Tex. It was 79 degrees, just before 6 p.m. on Saturday, May 25, 2019. 

To the athletes competing in that night’s NCAA Division II National Championships, it was sweltering, and strong breezes didn’t cool them, they provided an additional hindrance to the fierce competition on this Southeast Texas night. 

As he stood among his athletes, Franklin Pierce University track coach Zach Emerson watched senior CeCe Telfer prepare for the two events she was scheduled to run, the 100 and 400 meter hurdles.

Before the night was done, Telfer would beat her closest competitor by a second and a half, and then heft a trophy high above her head, to begin her reign as 2019 Division II national champion in the 400m. As far as we know, she is the first publicly out trans woman to win an NCAA track & field title.

View image on Twitter





FPU [email protected]
https://twitter.com/FPUathletics/status/1132442025754791937

National champion! #LetsFly


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7:23 PM - May 25, 2019

34 people are talking about this

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However, at that moment, Emerson said he expected her to lose. 

Caster Semenya of South Africa, to suppress her naturally high levels to be allowed to compete — unless she overturns that decision on appeal. 

Emerson notes he’s seen the difference testosterone suppression has had on Telfer’s performance as an athlete, in the nearly two years since she’s been on hormones.

“She has lost muscle, she lost some weight,” he said. “She is not as explosive or as fast. A lot of her lifting numbers have gone down, so strength-wise, that has gone down quite a bit. Last year, her time slowed down considerably over the previous year’s, as her muscle mass decreased.” Telfer’s old records can be viewed here and compared to her current record.

“I wish people would understand what testosterone is, and what it can do for your body, and how when you’re suppressing that, how hard it is to to go through certain challenges,” like trying to compete on that hot Texas night after losing the 100m.

*Getting into the groove*
Telfer said she didn’t hear the boos some spectators hurled at her, as she steeled herself for the 400.

“When I’m in the block, and I’m on the track, I don’t listen for anything else but positive vibes and people yelling ‘Go CeCe!’” said Telfer. “Pretty much anything that is is attached to me finishing strong in a race.”

Emerson said the heckling has actually lessened since the very first meet in which she competed as a woman, the UMass Boston Indoor Open at the Reggie Lewis Center in Roxbury, MA., on December 1, 2018.

At that point, it had been more than a year since Telfer began her medical transition; she had been undergoing prescribed hormone therapy since the start of her junior year, in the fall of 2017.






Via Twitter
“That first meet she ran, there were some audible gasps, and boos,” Emerson recalled. “I remember my legs going numb. It just felt like a dream. But it has gotten a whole lot better.”

At Telfer’s first meet as CeCe, she placed first in the 60m hurdles, both in the preliminaries and the final, finishing with a time of 8.40. She came in 6th in the high jump.

Telfer cleaned up at the Elm City Challenge in Southern Connecticut, winning 1st place in both the 55m hurdles and the Pentathlon. A 2nd place finish at Middlebury in January was the last time she’d lose a race that month.

And it wasn’t long before all those victories caught the eye of the news media, starting with her hometown paper, The Keene Sentinel: “Senior Cece Telfer ranks first in the country in the 60-meter hurdles (personal-best 8.33 seconds), second in the pentathlon (3735 points), sixth in the 60-meter dash (7.57) and is tied for 17th in the high jump (1.65 meters).“


Telfer’s scores helped propel the FPU Ravens women’s track and field team to earn its first-ever ranking in the national top 25 by the United States Track & Field and Cross Country Coaches Association. She also won individual titles in the 60M, 200M and 60M hurdles at the Northeast-10 Championships.

But as she racked up wins, the buzz surrounding Telfer spread to conservative right-wing and anti-LGBTQ fundamentalist Christian sites, with nasty headlines screaming about Telfer being “born a man” who “switched to female,” and is “destroying women’s sports.”

She did so well, in fact, that Donald Trump, Jr., took notice.






Via Twitter




*Thanks to everyone who made Outsports Pride a success!*
Outsports celebrated Pride, and its 20th anniversary, in Los Angeles during LA Pride, and we were blown away by all of the amazing people who made the weekend such a success. Special thanks to the Los Angeles Dodgers for being our lead sponsor, and to UCLA for hosting the inspiring Outsports Pride Summit. See you in 2020!

The negative press spawned a wave of hate and transphobia across social media that has continued unabated for months. Much of it is misgendering, memes that deny Telfer’s authentic gender identity and accuse her of being a mediocre athlete who only competes as a girl to win.

“There is no other word for it other than ‘complete ********,’” said an exasperated Coach Emerson, who said he “turns into a mama grizzly bear” if he hears someone at a meet refer to Telfer by the wrong pronouns. He also takes the time to respond to the false claims that have spread across the internet.

*“It’s unfair to ‘real girls’”*
Emerson gets this argument most often from parents of cisgender girls, who argue transgender girls cost their daughters college scholarships and other opportunities. As a straight, cisgender father of daughters himself, he concedes he struggles with the question of how he would feel and what he would tell his girls if they lost to a transgender athlete. Ultimately, though, it comes down to a life lesson, he said. 


“I would tell them, ‘Nothing that anyone else is doing can take away from the tools that you were learning by you personally getting better. And that’s why you should be doing this sport, as opposed to if you’re doing this just for trophies.“

A 16-year-old cis girl who lost to two transgender girls in a state competition in Connecticut posted a video to YouTube about their “unfair advantage,” and calling on Congress to reject the Equality Act, which would allow trans students nationwide to compete according to their gender identity. Her mother organized a petition to change the rules allowing trans athletes to compete, after those two transgender girls — Andraya Yearwood and Terry Miller — came in first and second place in state races. 

“The reason why parents can be very difficult sometimes dealing with their two most important things in their entire life is usually their kids and their money,” Emerson said. “Sports overlap both of them. And so you know I would never say that what she feels is wrong. It’s your child, the most important thing in the world to you. And, money, whether it’s how much money you spent on that child to become a better athlete, or opportunities for college, emotions are going to run high. And I don’t think she’s wrong for having those emotions. But at the same time, as a college coach, I think if you asked any college coach about that argument they would laugh at that. We look at paper, we don’t look at finishes; we don’t look at who’s a state champ, we look at what their time was.”

*“The race is already over”*




CeCe Telfer, center, as seen moments prior to the start of the 60M hurdles.
 Screengrab/NCAA


*“Couldn’t cut it as a male athlete. That man should not be running women’s races”*
That’s what the assistant coach at the College of Staten Island tweeted after Telfer’s victory in the 400m. Emerson took exception, called his remarks “unacceptable,” and tweeted a promise to follow up with the coach’s administration. Emerson vigorously refutes the claim Telfer was a mediocre male athlete. 







*CeCe struggles *
Her gender dysphoria manifested itself at every meet in which she competed against men, Telfer told Outsports. 



Early in 2018, Telfer decided she was done with track. She informed Emerson, who is also the assistant athletic director at Franklin Pierce, that she had begun her transition from male to female. “She had decided she no longer wanted to be a male athlete,” he recalled, and admits he didn’t recognize the mental anguish she was going through, and only focused on what Telfer was walking away from.



“I felt like that was a bad move for her because she was going to lose a lot of accountability and social time,” he said. “I had no idea that there were NCAA rules put in place that would allow her to participate on the women’s side. I would have suggested that immediately.” 

By September 2018, Telfer returned, and promised Emerson that she would not quit. He promised in return that the coaches and teammates would support her every step of the way. 

“I thought she might be a little naive to what sort of negative attention might be lurking around the corner when she does start performing,” said Emerson.

*“I was in a really dark place”*




CeCe Telfer
 Franklin Pierce University
Telfer said her coaches and teammates have acted as online bodyguards, blocking haters and keeping her social media on lockdown after the first wave of hate earlier this year.

“When I saw all of it, it was rough, and I was in a really dark place,” Telfer said, Fortunately her thoughts have never drifted toward self-harm, but she admits, “It’s part of a constant struggle.”

The haters who use news of her achievements as a catapult to launch attacks upon other transgender athletes and trans youth are of special concern to Telfer, especially those whose families have abandoned them. Three hours after graduation, Telfer came out to her mother.

“I’m basically shunned,” she revealed. “I don’t really have family members or anybody to be there for me.”





CeCe Telfer
 Screengrab via Twitter NCAA
Her mother and those other relatives were not there for Telfer on May 25, when she won her national championship title. She led the pack across the finish line by more than a second, in a personal collegiate-best time of 57.53 seconds, according to the university website. Her finish was two seconds shy of the NCAA Division II record. And even without family there to cheer her on, she said her track family made it special, and winning that trophy was still a thrill. “So that was pretty, pretty awesome,” she said. 

“Don’t you kinda wish you could do this again?” Emerson recalled asking her. He said she told him, “‘I don’t really feel much different.’ But she was happy. She just was not disappointed for the first time in quite a while.” Which is what Telfer has become accustomed to, given her family’s rejection.

“I’ve prepared for this my whole life, basically because I knew that my my family was never accepting and I knew that I had to do what I had to do.”

And what she does now, she said, is reach out to trans youth through social media, to offer them the support she wished she had when she was younger.



Emerson concedes that he set his expectations too low for his national champion. “I didn’t give her the respect her strength deserved,” he said. “She was so much stronger through this entire last year than I was ever possible of giving her credit for. She deserves all the freaking credit in the world.”

This Friday, June 7, CeCe Telfer will join transgender women athletes Andraya Yearwood, Chloe Psyche Anderson and Athena Del Rosario in Los Angeles for a panel moderated by Outsports managing editor Dawn Ennis at Outsports Pride.


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## dancinstallion

So it began and is here full effect.  I said this back in 2009 when everyone welcomed Caster that this was unfair. Now nationwide mediocre subpar men are racing against girls and women and taking their scholarships, awards, money, and trophies. What's fair about this?


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## ThirdEyeBeauty

Leeda.the.Paladin said:


> Her gender dysphoria manifested itself at every meet in which she competed against men, Telfer told Outsports


Why?  Because he was losing perhaps.


Leeda.the.Paladin said:


> “I think I'm in this world for a reason. I think I am a living testimony. I would say I'm a savior.


Okay now this is crazy talk.  Fine keep your ability to play in the general women's sport.  That's fine.  Keep it. Trans are welcome as well.  Open sports for the cis women only.  Otherwise all the cis women will not get a fair chance because we try to be fair to everyone else.  Women sure know how to sacrifice themselves.


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## Leeda.the.Paladin

*Caster Semenya loses appeal in Swiss court over restriction of testosterone levels*
By George Ramsay and Jill Martin, CNN

Updated 6:29 AM ET, Wed September 9, 2020























*The 11-year-old record-breaker with Tokyo 2020 on his mind

Champions League returns but not as you've seen it before*






(CNN)Two-time Olympic champion Caster Semenya has lost an appeal against the restriction of testosterone in female athletes, it was announced Tuesday.

Under World Athletics guidelines introduced last year, Semenya would have to take testosterone-reducing drugs in order to compete in races from 400m to a mile, which the 29-year-old has chosen not to do.

Switzerland's Federal Supreme Court dismissed Semenya's appeal, upholding the ruling made by the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) last year regarding female runners, like Semenya, with differences of sexual development (DSD).
"Chills my people, a man can change the rules but the very same man cannot rule my life," Semenya wrote on Twitter after the ruling was announced. 


Visit CNN.com/sport for more news, videos and features





Semenya competes in the women's 200m final during the Athletics Gauteng North Championships in Pretoria in March.
"What I'm saying is that I might have failed against them (but) the truth is that I have won this battle long ago. 
"Go back to my achievements then you will understand. Doors might be closed (but) not locked."

Semenya, who won 800m gold at the 2012 and 2016 Olympics, in March said she wouldtarget the 200m, an event she is permitted to compete in without taking medication to reduce her naturally elevated testosterone levels.









She was competing in the 200m in her native South Africa earlier this year with an eye on qualifying for the Olympics before the postponement of this year's Games was announced.

"I am very disappointed by this ruling, but refuse to let World Athletics drug me or stop me from being who I am," Semenya said in a statement released via her lawyers, according to PA Media. 

"Excluding female athletes or endangering our health solely because of our natural abilities puts World Athletics on the wrong side of history.

"I will continue to fight for the human rights of female athletes, both on the track and off the track, until we can all run free the way we were born. I know what is right and will do all I can to protect basic human rights, for young girls everywhere."
World Athletics welcomed the decision by the Swiss courts to uphold what it deems "a legitimate and proportionate means of protecting the right of all female athletes to participate in our sport on fair and meaningful terms."

A statement from the governing body said: "World Athletics fully respects each individual's personal dignity and supports the social movement to have people accepted in society based on their chosen legal sex and/or gender identity. 

"As the Swiss Federal Tribunal (SFT) specifically recognized, however, the DSD regulations are not about challenging an individual's gender identity, but rather about protecting fair competition for all female athletes."


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## Leeda.the.Paladin

Leeda.the.Paladin said:


> Excluding female athletes or endangering our health solely because of our *natural abilities* puts World Athletics on the wrong side of history.


C’mon now...


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## LavenderMint

Leeda.the.Paladin said:


> C’mon now...


I’m very curious what would be the “endangerment” effects if she did lower her testosterone to be within the levels set.


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## lesedi

I'm tired of this issue. On a personal level I feel sorry for her, but right is right.


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## Leeda.the.Paladin

LavenderMint said:


> I’m very curious what would be the “endangerment” effects if she did lower her testosterone to be within the levels set.


I don’t doubt that there are some side effects ,possibly increased risk of cancers...but I think the biggest effect she’s worried about is the increased chance of losing her races . She also probably does not want to become more physically feminine. She seems very comfortable in her masculine traits. Having a flat chest is more conducive  to running, for example.


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## Kanky

Leeda.the.Paladin said:


> "I will continue to fight for the human rights of female athletes, both on the track and off the track, until we can all run free the way we were born.


She needs to stop lying to herself and to us. She is fighting for the right to be biologically male and cheat female athletes out of their scholarships and trophies.


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## Theresamonet

Am I correct in assuming Caster is losing her battle because it’s a Swiss court? If this were in the US, it seems like she’d be able to compete and steal all she wants from women... Why is that trans man CeCe, posted above, allowed to compete in women’s sports? Is the US so far gone when it comes to this trans thing that men can now just say “feel like a woman inside”, and be allowed to dominate all the women’s sporting events??


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## huxtable

For most of history women had nothing.  Now we are getting a little something and men want to call themselves women and take the little that we have. Where were they when we did not have the right to vote, when could not even compete in events like these?

This taking of our spaces BY MEN is serious business and should not be ignored.  Women who align with them should really give it some deep thought because these men are coming from a place of real envy and contempt for women and at the end of the day you are a women and they will eventually come for you should you dare step out of line.

They probably all up in this forum as well.


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## Leeda.the.Paladin




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## naturalgyrl5199

Theresamonet said:


> Am I correct in assuming Caster is losing her battle because it’s a Swiss court? If this were in the US, it seems like she’d be able to compete and steal all she wants from women... Why is that trans man CeCe, posted above, allowed to compete in women’s sports? Is the US so far gone when it comes to this trans thing that men can now just say “feel like a woman inside”, and be allowed to *dominate all the women’s sporting events*??


People try to assure us that under no circumstances will women who identify as women will be erased in society. But we were worried about the above 10 years ago and here we are. I'm in the birth work world and this is argued a lot. We know that people who identify as male but were born female can have babies. Arguments about "birthing person" vs the "nursing mom." "Arguments about chest feeding vs breastfeeding----even though men and women have breast tissue." The MTF transgender person who wanted access to breast cancer services/grants targeted to women. The real worry that eliminating womanhood and women may see an erasure of female targeted medical initiatives like maternal mortality in black women, money and grants for women-related health issues ONLY found in women. So called feminists on both sides, black women and other non-wyte woc on both sides arguing, name calling. I'm tired.


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## Maracujá

naturalgyrl5199 said:


> People try to assure us that under no circumstances will women who identify as women will be erased in society. But we were worried about the above 10 years ago and here we are. I'm in the birth work world and this is argued a lot. We know that people who identify as male but were born female can have babies. *Arguments about "birthing person" vs the "nursing mom." "Arguments about chest feeding vs breastfeeding*----even though men and women have breast tissue." The MTF transgender person who wanted access to breast cancer services/grants targeted to women. The real worry that eliminating womanhood and women may see an erasure of female targeted medical initiatives like maternal mortality in black women, money and grants for women-related health issues ONLY found in women. So called feminists on both sides, black women and other non-wyte woc on both sides arguing, name calling. I'm tired.



Yup, noticed the same semantics while working at a health insurance company. So disheartening. Had to walk on eggshells when addressing customers on the phone too .


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## Maguerite

Good! She is a man and that’s final. Go compete with the men. I’ll bet the male athletes will oppose vigorously, are there any FTM fighting to compete with men? It’s  usually women, sadly BW for the most part, who have no boundaries and allow anyone to invade our spaces.


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## luckiestdestiny

kblc06 said:


> While I agree that until her testosterone levels are lowered within a normal female range,  she should not be allowed to compete with women, unless women competing in her events were allowed to dope. However, the bolded is NOT accurate. In Caster's case, while she may have XY chromosomes,  her body is _insensitive_ to testosterone's effects. Androgen insensitivity syndrome or AIS can be complete or incomplete due to a malfunction of the SRY gene on the Y chromosome.
> 
> Every fetus  essentially starts out as "beta female" with internal gonads and it's the activation or inactivation of anti-mullerian hormones that determines how these gonads develop (anti-mullerian hormone triggered by SRY gene to up-regulate androgen production causes the development of testes and destruction of the residual tissue that _would_ form the Fallopian tubes/ovaries). Due to some mutation, Caster's body did not respond completely, so while she has internal "testes" that may produce excessive androgens, the receptors on her body's cells don't respond as a male would in the presence of testosterone, rendering her effectively female.  Even if Caster were to take in _additional _testosterone via injections, her results as far as muscular development would never reach that of a man because her cellular receptors don't respond to androgens.  In hormonal conditions such as PCOS in women, overproduction of estrogen can inter-convert this excess estrogen to testosterone quite easily which is what causes excess hair, amenorrhea, and male type central obesity in women with the condition.
> 
> A transgender female (MTF), would have both _normal_ responses in androgen production levels and and androgen receptor activity, thus making them effectively male. Sex hormones are weird and not exactly as cut and dry as they may seem. Testosterone and estrogen  readily convert back and forth and levels that are too low or too high even in normal cisgender male and females can cause systematic issues.


Thanks for explaining this. Okay so she's female...but with too high testosterone.  But at least I now understand why she can be considered a woman instead of a male.   

I agree with you though that she should not be allowed with  women in competition unless those women are allowed to dope to get the same genetic advantage.  She's not just a little out of range, she's so far out of range of testosterone that it is just not fair to anyone competing.


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## luckiestdestiny

laurend said:


> I just feel sorry for her and the women who are denied medals because of her. She should not run with women, whom she will beat, and she should not run with men, who will beat her. Semenya should be in a race for intersex people but they are not enough around to create a race category at these events.


This sucks right here.


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## luckiestdestiny

dancinstallion said:


> This is the point. Biologically he is a male not a female with high testosterone. I am glad they are fighting his appeal.
> 
> https://dailycaller.com/2019/06/19/caster-semenya-biologically-male-iaaf/
> 
> 
> *Women’s Olympic Champion Caster Semenya Is ‘Biologically Male,’ IAAF Says
> 
> 
> June 19th, 2019
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Caster Semenya of South Africa looks on prior to competing in the Women's 800 metres during the IAAF Diamond League event at the Khalifa International Stadium on May 03, 2019 in Doha, Qatar. (Francois Nel/Getty Images)
> Women’s Olympic champion Caster Semenya is a biological male, the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF), the world’s largest sports governing body, argued in court.
> 
> Semenya, the South African runner who dominated the female competition in the women’s 800M at the 2016 London Olympics, is fighting an IAAF requirement that biologically male runners suppress their testosterone below a certain level in order to compete in female events.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Media reporting on the subject has often left outthe fact that the IAAF’s rule only applies to runners with male chromosomes rather than female runners with high testosterone levels.
> 
> The IAAF called the requirement “an extremely progressive compromise” between protecting the integrity of women’s sports and accommodating “certain biologically male athletes with female gender identities” like Semenya who want to compete in women’s sports, the court documents show.
> 
> The IAAF added that “there are some contexts where biology has to trump identity.” (RELATED: Every Democratic 2020 Frontrunner Supports Bill Forcing Male Athletes Into Girls’ Sports)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Semenya at France’s LNA Pro Athle Tour meeting on June 11, 2019 (GEOFFROY VAN DER HASSELT/AFP/Getty Images)
> 
> Semenya reportedly has “5-alpha reductase deficiency” (5-ARD), a medical condition affecting male sexual development.
> 
> 
> Semenya’s case, the IAAF reiterated, “is not about biological females and how their bodies respond to testosterone; it is about biological males with 5-ARD (and other [male sexual development disorders]), how their bodies respond to testosterone, and the performance advantages of that response when they compete against biological females.”
> 
> Athletes with 5-ARD are “biologically indistinguishable… in all relevant aspects” from typical male athletes, with the only major difference being the “size and shape of their external genitals,” the IAAF argued.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Semenya celebrates winning the Women’s 800 meters during the IAAF Diamond League event at the Khalifa International Stadium on May 03, 2019 in Doha, Qatar. (Francois Nel/Getty Images)
> 
> “People with this condition are genetically male, with one X and one Y chromosome in each cell, and they have male gonads (testes),” the U.S. National Library of Medicine’s explainer on 5-ARD states. “Their bodies, however, do not produce enough of a hormone called dihydrotestosterone (DHT). DHT has a critical role in male sexual development, and a shortage of this hormone disrupts the formation of the external sex organs before birth.”
> 
> The Switzerland-based Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) ruled in favor of the IAAF last month but before Tuesday, “CAS had previously released only short excerpts of the final verdict when it was announced last month,” the Associated Press reported.
> 
> 
> Semenya appealed the verdict to the Federal Supreme Court of Switzerland, which announced June 3 that it was suspending the IAAF’s rule while it considers Semenya’s appeal*



*Semenya reportedly has “5-alpha reductase deficiency” (5-ARD), a medical condition affecting male sexual development.


Semenya’s case, the IAAF reiterated, “is not about biological females and how their bodies respond to testosterone; it is about biological males with 5-ARD (and other [male sexual development disorders]), how their bodies respond to testosterone, and the performance advantages of that response when they compete against biological females.”* 


Geez if this definition is true versus the other provided by our lhcf member, then she is a male and that's that. No more of this confusion. Caster needs to run with males or in a different category.  I guess I need to keep reading before I finish responding because I'm now seeing how this thread is old and it seems like a book where there are surprise endings  .


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## LivingInPeace

luckiestdestiny said:


> *Semenya reportedly has “5-alpha reductase deficiency” (5-ARD), a medical condition affecting male sexual development.
> 
> 
> Semenya’s case, the IAAF reiterated, “is not about biological females and how their bodies respond to testosterone; it is about biological males with 5-ARD (and other [male sexual development disorders]), how their bodies respond to testosterone, and the performance advantages of that response when they compete against biological females.”*
> 
> 
> Geez if this definition is true versus the other provided by our lhcf member, then she is a male and that's that. No more of this confusion. Caster needs to run with males or in a different category.  I guess I need to keep reading before I finish responding because I'm now seeing how this thread is old and it seems like a book where there are surprise endings  .


Look, I could have told everyone that's a man. Ain't no need for lab work.


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## luckiestdestiny

LivingInPeace said:


> Look, I could have told everyone that's a man. Ain't no need for lab work.



I wanted to understand the science behind things in case I was wrong. Nobody's perfect. I was on the  train of thought from the beginning but conceded that I might not know everything because science is not my field and though I can appreciate and process information adequately, maybe something was missing that I didn't know that others in the field did. Like: perhaps somehow her genetic makeup rendered the Y ineffective in some way. The explanation by the previous poster seemed valid so I yielded instead of going with my better instincts  And because it was late, I wasn't in research mode and saw no one contradicting so I was like, okay then...I guess this is what happens in development to all of us and then the way we express changes things but somehow there was  a mix up in her body. However, science has defined this condition as decidely male so none of that matters.


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## luckiestdestiny

I forgot to post this part which was most amusing:

*Media reporting on the subject has often left outthe fact that the IAAF’s rule only applies to runners with male chromosomes rather than female runners with high testosterone levels.*



Ain't that some b.s   I mean...that means all of the back and forth of this thread is for nothing. Basically, if Caster were intersex, Caster could run against other women without altering her hormones/ If she were a woman with high testosterone levels, she'd be cleared to run against women with normal levels of testosterone (for our sex). And still some would think that's unfair because of the disadvantage of how high her levels are (testosterone) for her sport but if she were a woman, defined, caster would still be able to run.


Their final thoughts on this sum up how reasonable they were being to her and possibly unreasonable to women runners in the field just to work within the context of all these new definitions  and identifications that could perhaps compromise women athletes at their expense:

*The IAAF called the requirement “an extremely progressive compromise” between protecting the integrity of women’s sports and accommodating “certain biologically male athletes with female gender identities” like Semenya who want to compete in women’s sports, the court documents show.*

However Caster's a man, by law (and reality  because no one wants to look at that anymore) and as such they are like _lower your testosterone if you want to compete. _That means because of the condition, they'd allow a man to compete against women in this sport if they would just lower their testosterone.  And Caster has the nerve to wanna cry foul. Yes this was a lbgtq+ initiative let's face it that would also lean towards other men like transwomen who want to compete against women.


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## luckiestdestiny

Maguerite said:


> Good! She is a man and that’s final. Go compete with the men. I’ll bet the male athletes will oppose vigorously, are there any FTM fighting to compete with men? It’s  usually women, sadly BW for the most part, who have no boundaries and allow anyone to invade our spaces.


I wouldn't say we have no boundaries.  We are the most brutalized, ignored, oppressed, and tossed aside. This is dangerous for us because no one is checking for us when we stand for us. People are used to invading our spaces, and/or demanding xyz from us without anything in return (this includes w feminists and onward) and now we are responding appropriately by questioning and pushing back. But as usual we are being battered for our response, silenced, threatened, and gaslighted.

It would make some women apprehensive of continuing the fight. Even in this thread women are mentioning they are "tired" of it all.  

Still this is not something that we can ignore unless we want our very  lives altered. We will have to cite some of the rulings abroad as they seem to be further along on these trans and other intersex rulings. I believe UK has just had some rulings about this as well. As emphasized we are for the lives of women everywhere and the protection of those marginalized everywhere. One thing does not negate the other. With that said, one cannot succeed at the expense of the other and that's what's happening now with us allowing other to dictate the rules on our spaces.


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## naturalgyrl5199

luckiestdestiny said:


> I wouldn't say we have no boundaries.  We are the most brutalized, ignored, oppressed, and tossed aside. *This is dangerous for us because no one is checking for us when we stand for us. *People are used to invading our spaces, and/or demanding xyz from us without anything in return (this includes w feminists and onward) and now we are responding appropriately by questioning and pushing back. But as usual we are being battered for our response, silenced, threatened, and gaslighted.
> 
> *It would make some women apprehensive of continuing the fight*. Even in this thread women are mentioning they are "tired" of it all.
> 
> *Still this is not something that we can ignore unless we want our very  lives altered.* *We will have to cite some of the rulings abroad as they seem to be further along on these trans and other intersex rulings. I believe UK has just had some rulings about this as well.* As emphasized we are for the lives of women everywhere and the protection of those marginalized everywhere. One thing does not negate the other. With that said, one cannot succeed at the expense of the other and that's what's happening now with us allowing other to dictate the rules on our spaces.


You are right. The LGTBQIA community makes it hard to speak out. Birth work communities, and then among black doulas, lactation professionals, we are seen as "phobic" and not an "ally." More and more black women are very very accepting of changing their language. More wt women are pushing back---like JK Rowling. I think that its not a good environment to speak out about these things--yet. Cancel culture is still very strong. For black women in communities who have burgeoning businesses that seek to protect women and their rights its risky. Unfortunately it will have to be at the door step of BW who ally with these groups with something they hold dear at risk before they say something and then it may be too late. 

Right now I see BW playing it safe...only using that language in public and then when dealing individually with people, they use the traditional language....I think we need to--for now--let those directly involved deal with it...Caster, the IFAA, men...and keep it moving but MONITOR. There is a push to INFILTRATE us into normalcy. But right now....speaking out too much will end you. A wt woman spoke out about the "birthing person" language erasing "mother" and had her FB page, business, pretty much almost closed down. Kicked out of SM advocacy groups and called all kinds of names including racist because it was a BW using the language. They screen shot her page, picture, profile and it went viral in the doula and lactation groups.....It was a HOT mess. I'm not willing to put black women on the front lines yet. Let WP ppl fight this out. AND THEY are pushing back. Even members of the LGBTQ community are literally REMOVING the "T" part and disassociating themselves from the movement in certain ways (Specifically in the UK per the bolded, italicized above) Not that we shouldn't protect members of the trans community (they need protecting!!!) ...but some of the parts that seek to dilute womanhood and femininity by circular dialogue, removing safe spaces for women (UK rulings addressed this), not accepting being called cis-this and TERF that.... That's where I am right now....


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## luckiestdestiny

naturalgyrl5199 said:


> You are right. The LGTBQIA community makes it hard to speak out. Birth work communities, and then among black doulas, lactation professionals, we are seen as "phobic" and not an "ally." More and more black women are very very accepting of changing their language. More wt women are pushing back---like JK Rowling. I think that its not a good environment to speak out about these things--yet. Cancel culture is still very strong. For black women in communities who have burgeoning businesses that seek to protect women and their rights its risky. Unfortunately it will have to be at the door step of BW who ally with these groups with something they hold dear at risk before they say something and then it may be too late.
> 
> Right now I see BW playing it safe...only using that language in public and then when dealing individually with people, they use the traditional language....I think we need to--for now--let those directly involved deal with it...Caster, the IFAA, men...and keep it moving but MONITOR. There is a push to INFILTRATE us into normalcy. But right now....speaking out too much will end you. A wt woman spoke out about the "birthing person" language erasing "mother" and had her FB page, business, pretty much almost closed down. Kicked out of SM advocacy groups and called all kinds of names including racist because it was a BW using the language. They screen shot her page, picture, profile and it went viral in the doula and lactation groups.....It was a HOT mess. I'm not willing to put black women on the front lines yet. Let WP ppl fight this out. AND THEY are pushing back. Even members of the LGBTQ community are literally REMOVING the "T" part and disassociating themselves from the movement in certain ways (Specifically in the UK per the bolded, italicized above) Not that we shouldn't protect members of the trans community (they need protecting!!!) ...but some of the parts that seek to dilute womanhood and femininity by circular dialogue, removing safe spaces for women (UK rulings addressed this), not accepting being called cis-this and TERF that.... That's where I am right now....


Oh for sure. We really need to move in silence and as a community find ways to protect ourselves during these tense times.

This sounds horrible. Cancel culture, though well meaning, needs revising. Meanwhile we need to protect black women instead of throwing ourselves on the front lines.  They created most of these problems so they need to fix them (wp, patriarchy, etc)....SO let's let wp, ww and the lgbtq community box it out because we would end up destroyed fighting those fights and our own when they usually use us as a shield and then  once they've won whatever objective, they skip off as we are left battered and bruised in the wake.  We can support but we need to be careful as you mentioned so that we can still thrive. We already have enough people trying to destroy us, no need to be destroyed in other ways unnecessarily. Still if anything threatens our spaces and our sense of self, we are going to have to find ways to defend our stance in ways that will not have us cancelled so to speak. Because if we wait too long, it will be too late. So it's a balancing act of deciding what's really important and not just when to fight but how.


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## Maguerite

I usually enjoy your astute observations but I’m going to have to disagree on some points.
1. I don’t care about other women, only BW. If women of other groups or races were as invested in BW as they claim we would not be the ‘most brutalised, ignored, oppressed & tossed aside group.’ No doubt we have our supporters but what’s key is - they are not enough to effect real change. 
2. These terrible experiences are partly due to lack of boundaries. We are too nice, too inclusive, too forgiving. Everyday our collective images are damaged, ridiculed, overlooked, erased. While this happens, NO ONE cares. No one cares enough to fight openly, with us, for us. Biden speaks to of all people Cardi B as a representative of us, where was the universal outrage? 
3. I think BW need to stop being reasonable & look out for ourselves and no one else. During wartime people aren’t trying to play nice, they are protecting themselves & their own group. There is a war against the image of BW. Doing the same thing over & over without reaping any benefits sounds suspiciously like insanity. We need to course correct.



luckiestdestiny said:


> I wouldn't say we have no boundaries.  We are the most brutalized, ignored, oppressed, and tossed aside. This is dangerous for us because no one is checking for us when we stand for us. People are used to invading our spaces, and/or demanding xyz from us without anything in return (this includes w feminists and onward) and now we are responding appropriately by questioning and pushing back. But as usual we are being battered for our response, silenced, threatened, and gaslighted.
> 
> It would make some women apprehensive of continuing the fight. Even in this thread women are mentioning they are "tired" of it all.
> 
> Still this is not something that we can ignore unless we want our very  lives altered. We will have to cite some of the rulings abroad as they seem to be further along on these trans and other intersex rulings. I believe UK has just had some rulings about this as well. As emphasized we are for the lives of women everywhere and the protection of those marginalized everywhere. One thing does not negate the other. With that said, one cannot succeed at the expense of the other and that's what's happening now with us allowing other to dictate the rules on our spaces.


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## luckiestdestiny

Maguerite said:


> I usually enjoy your astute observations but I’m going to have to disagree on some points.
> 1. I don’t care about other women, only BW. If women of other groups or races were as invested in BW as they claim we would not be the ‘most brutalised, ignored, oppressed & tossed aside group.’ No doubt we have our supporters but what’s key is - they are not enough to effect real change.
> 2. These terrible experiences are partly due to lack of boundaries. We are too nice, too inclusive, too forgiving. Everyday our collective images are damaged, ridiculed, overlooked, erased. While this happens, NO ONE cares. No one cares enough to fight openly, with us, for us. Biden speaks to of all people Cardi B as a representative of us, where was the universal outrage?
> 3. I think BW need to stop being reasonable & look out for ourselves and no one else. During wartime people aren’t trying to play nice, they are protecting themselves & their own group. There is a war against the image of BW. Doing the same thing over & over without reaping any benefits sounds suspiciously like insanity. We need to course correct.


We are actually in agreement on all of your points for the most part. On only caring about bw, I get it.  I do think of others too, but I do think we deserve the prime spot in protection.  Also with number three, I again agree that we need to look out for our stuff first, I do feel that it's personal whether we want to lend support elsewhere in addition to supporting our own initiatives but in general, I agree.

And I do think our image is super important, everything is super important. We're usually told that our opinions need to just be shoved into a corner at the expense of every other group. We sometimes do that to ourselves and each other.

But either way, our first instinct should be to protect ourselves because no one else is doing that job too well.  In the past we were taught to overlook our needs and protect out brothers, husbands, and sons instead meanwhile no one shielded us.  And we've passed on those instincts which is why you point out that we aren't fighting for specific issues, some of which are valid and need our support. I don't want that used as an excuse to bash ourselves. There are others already doing that.  We need to get proactive instead of pointing fingers at ourselves because the whole of the world is doing that. We can see where we need to grow and improve without doing that while supporting our initiatives, goals, lives.  A good way of doing that is being real with ourselves like you've done here. We can mention where we lack so we improve without getting into a "that's what you get" or cancel culture mode . We need love and nurturing right now and we need to give that to ourselves in the form of support, love, and the truth when it's valid (some that you've mentioned).   Then, we need to put things into action which is the most important thing.

The reason for that post was that I just wanted to point out the other  issue of us being silence, battered, threatened, overlooked and gaslit , too when we do defend ourselves because I believe we are exhausted defending ourselves on all ends too.  With that said I definitely agree that there are places where we definitely need better boundaries, and there are others where we have fought but are shut down and silenced. It's a catch 22 for us.  By mentioning that does not negate the fact that we do have to make certain to stand up and not let things slide in our community.

With that said when I look at your 3rd point,  I have mulled over the idea that we should move in secret and develop collective ways to encourage and support ourselves  for the time being. And we need to be able to decipher who understands this logic and get with like minded individuals.  I shouldn't have to go on the defense to explain that we need some protection, love and support right now.  I shouldn't have to explain that some things should be obvious.  We need to gather together and plan by finding those of like minds,  and if we can't move on our own in secret (I think of both examples as moving in secret because the main plans are obscured from any group except bw, or our own self depending on our choice).

We need to support ourselves and those like us, and no matter what pretty much move quietly to achieve our objectives. When we get in positions of power, we help others move on up too (without announcing it on twitter  so that we can keep on moving other bw up), and so on. In relationships we need to encourage younger women (and ourselves for single women) to practice hypergamy and also making good ethical choices when dating and marrying (determined by our individual needs). It's obvious to all other groups but we are maligned if we speak about it and shamed into trying to make Tyler Perry choices  .  There are many areas where we need to overcome the blinders placed on us and some where we have begun removing them but still need to make choices without announcing them to other groups who will only judge and/or hinder our progress while trying to pretty much do the same themselves.


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## Ganjababy

I feel sorry for Caster. Though I agree that she should not compete with women, I see her as a woman because she was brought up as a woman/socialized as a woman. So unless she says otherwise, I see her as a lesbian woman. I wish her much success. She can use this opportunity to continue to carve out her path in history. Write a book. Share her experience. Coach. Whatever. Sometimes life gives us lemon  and we turn it into key limes (yes, lime)  pie...Much love to her.


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## naturalgyrl5199

Ganjababy said:


> *I feel sorry for Caster*. Though I agree that she should not compete with women, I see her as a woman because she was brought up as a woman/socialized as a woman. So unless she says otherwise, I see her as a lesbian woman. I wish her much success. She can use this opportunity to continue carve out her path in history. Write a book. Share her experience. Coach. Whatever. Sometimes life gives us lemons and we turn it into key lime pie...Much love to her.


Me too. My husband only sees a man. I explained to him that its not Caster's fault her mother raised her as a women. Through the eyes of a woman. Which being that she looks very masculine had to be doubly hard. Harder for a child that doesn't look feminine--i.e the majority of us.  I'll never take how she came up and had to endure as a child for granted. I can believe it was hard. I just feel that this isn't something BW need to make this our hill to die on. Just take notes. Monitor the situation. I was trying to explain to DH that you cant just make Caster run with men either. Mentally that wouldn't be something her mind could grasp...or feel is right or fair. It wouldn't jive with her understanding of who she is. I empathize with her. But that's it.


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## Transformer

Just viewed the video and it is the first time I heard her voice.  It surprised me.  I didn’t expect it to be so masculine.


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## dancinstallion

Transformer said:


> Just viewed the video and it is the first time I heard her voice.  It surprised me.  I didn’t expect it to be so masculine.



Dh and I both heard a man talking.


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## kupenda

What an interesting thread. Caster has male chromosomes therefore Caster is a male, albeit one with low T. However, Caster has been socialized as a female and supposedly lacks the parts to behave as a man within their marriage. I have no problem referring to Caster as a female because medically her situation is special. If she decided she was a man tomorrow I would support that as well. However, medically speaking she is not a female therefore she should not compete against women. This is a tough break. But I don’t believe that the need for social acceptance should override facts. If she’s a low T male, she should compete against men. If she’s not good enough to make it on the men’s team, that doesn’t mean she gets to dominate the women’s.


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## Reinventing21

It is very sad and unfair that someone with so much passion and talent can't be rewarded somehow. As much as I want protect women's spaces I do empathize the more I read about this case. I wish there could be a separate race in which people in the gray area of hormones could compete.

It is interesting tho that the mom raised such a masculine looking and sounding child as a girl. I wonder if they discussed anything when puberty hit?


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