# The Events of CHRIST'S RETURN



## Poohbear (May 17, 2005)

1 Thessalonians 4 & 5 talk about watchfulness of the Lord, living to please God, remembering the hope of the resurrection, and being prepared when the Lord returns (which no one knows when it will happen).

Here are the events that will happen during Christ's 2nd return:

1. Christ will return visbly with a mighty shout

2. There will be unmistakable cry from an angel

3. There will be a trumpet fanfare such as has never been heard

4. Believers in Christ who are dead will rise from their graves

5. Believers who are alive will be lifted into the clouds and meet Christ.


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## DelightfulFlame (May 17, 2005)

I'll be back tomorrow. This thread will probably be another long one, and I'm sleepy.

Poohbear, I know you truly believe what you say. But I don't take your word for it (or anyone else's). Scripture please...


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## Poohbear (May 18, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> I'll be back tomorrow. This thread will probably be another long one, and I'm sleepy.
> 
> Poohbear, I know you truly believe what you say. But I don't take your word for it (or anyone else's). Scripture please...


I posted the scriptures, right in the beginning: 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 & 5  Do u want me 2 be more specific as far as verses and such?


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## DelightfulFlame (May 18, 2005)

Yes. You posted five statements. Exactly what scriptures do you base those on?


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## Poohbear (May 18, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> Yes. You posted five statements. Exactly what scriptures do you base those on?


 
*1 Thessalonians 4:13-18*

Btw, the five statements I posted came from a chart in my Life Applications Study Bible.


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## BlkHoneyLuv2U (May 18, 2005)

I copied from the New Living Translation version the verses below. HTH.

13And now, brothers and sisters, I want you to know what will happen to the Christians who have died so you will not be full of sorrow like people who have no hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus comes, God will bring back with Jesus all the Christians who have died. 15I can tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not rise to meet him ahead of those who are in their graves. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the call of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, all the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. 17Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and remain with him forever. 18So comfort and encourage each other with these words.


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## sky_blu (May 18, 2005)

You know my friend said something to me like this but she used Revelations I cant remember chp and verses or even how we started talking about this but I was thinking about this same thing the other day when I seen the story on yahoo of this man claiming to be Jesus Christ and wanting his name changed on his license to say that. (sorry for this run on sentence)


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## EssentialGrowth (May 18, 2005)

This disproves the claim of most Christian denominations who hold the belief that inhabitants on earth--depending on how they lived their lives--would either go to "hell" or heaven.   This scripture suggests that only a selected few will go to heaven, while the remaining others will be resurrected to live on earth. It contradicts the man-made doctrine of "burning in hell".


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## Sweet C (May 18, 2005)

EssentialGrowth said:
			
		

> This disproves the claim of most Christian denominations who hold the belief that inhabitants on earth--depending on how they lived their lives--would either go to "hell" or heaven. *This scripture suggests that only a selected few will go to heaven, while the remaining others will be resurrected to live on earth.* It contradicts the man-made doctrine of "burning in hell".


 
I don't think this is what this scripture suggests.  This scripture only pertains to what will occur when Christ's returns for his followers.  It doesn't go into what happens next, which is the tribulation (a lot of which is discussed in Revelations)


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## Poohbear (May 18, 2005)

Sweet C said:
			
		

> I don't think this is what this scripture suggests. This scripture only pertains to what will occur when Christ's returns for his followers. It doesn't go into what happens next, which is the tribulation (a lot of which is discussed in Revelations)


Yes. I agree. This will happen during the time that God destroys the earth.

One day, God's anger toward sin will be fully and completely unleashed.  Satan will be defeated with all of his agents.  False religion will be destroyed.  God will reward the faithful with eternal life, but all who refuse to believe in Him will face eternal punishment.
The importance of this is that evil and injustice will not prevail forever.  God's final judgement will put an end to these. We need to be certain of our committment to Jesus if we want to escape this great final judgement.  No one who is uncommitted to Christ will escape God's punishment.


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## Honeyhips (May 18, 2005)

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]*4:14* For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]*4:15* For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.[/font]


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## Honeyhips (May 18, 2005)

*4:16* For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: *4:17* Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. *4:18* Wherefore comfort one another with these words


I was taught, and I will pull up scriptures later that God would not destroy the Earth, but would renew it.


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## Honeyhips (May 18, 2005)

and the scripture for that. you can go to crosswalk.com to post it. 





			
				Poohbear said:
			
		

> Yes. I agree. This will happen during the time that God destroys the earth.
> 
> One day, God's anger toward sin will be fully and completely unleashed. Satan will be defeated with all of his agents. False religion will be destroyed. God will reward the faithful with eternal life, but all who refuse to believe in Him will face eternal punishment.
> The importance of this is that evil and injustice will not prevail forever. God's final judgement will put an end to these. We need to be certain of our committment to Jesus if we want to escape this great final judgement. No one who is uncommitted to Christ will escape God's punishment.


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## EssentialGrowth (May 18, 2005)

Sweet C said:
			
		

> I don't think this is what this scripture suggests.  This scripture only pertains to what will occur when Christ's returns for his followers.  It doesn't go into what happens next, which is the tribulation (a lot of which is discussed in Revelations)



Though it does not go into detail, the scripture is implying what WILL happen on earth during the Great Tribulation which is to be followed by Armageddon. It is a prelude to what will occur on earth and how it would affect its inhabitants;  as you correctly stated, the details of the event is further discussed in the book of Revelations. 

ETA: Is it your belief that Christ's returns is not the Tribulation itself? From what I read, you seem to sequence his return prior to the actual Tribulation.


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## Poohbear (May 18, 2005)

Honeyhips said:
			
		

> I was taught, and I will pull up scriptures later that God would not destroy the Earth, *but would renew it.*


You are correct. When I mentioned God destroying the Earth, I was talking about this 'physical' Earth in which we live in now.


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## Poohbear (May 18, 2005)

Honeyhips said:
			
		

> and the scripture for that. you can go to crosswalk.com to post it.


   What are you saying?


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## EssentialGrowth (May 18, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> Yes. I agree. This will happen during the time that God destroys the earth.
> 
> One day, God's anger toward sin will be fully and completely unleashed.  Satan will be defeated with all of his agents.  False religion will be destroyed.  God will reward the faithful with eternal life, but all who refuse to believe in Him will face eternal punishment.
> The importance of this is that evil and injustice will not prevail forever.  God's final judgement will put an end to these. We need to be certain of our committment to Jesus if we want to escape this great final judgement.  No one who is uncommitted to Christ will escape God's punishment.



Yes, this is event is known as Armageddon, BUT contrary to your statement, Satan and his agents will still be in existence--they would be locked in an abyss for one day, which in God's eyes is a 1,000 year period. After that time, Satan will be unleashed again, but only for a short period. It is then that He, his agents, and those who received a chance to know God but refused him, would be eternally destroyed in the fiery lake of Gehenna. 

Even those who refused to know God right now would be given a chance to eternal life.  Those unrighteous ones who "refused to believe Him" during their life course will be given a chance to get to know God during the 1,000 year period. If they still refuse to believe him AFTER given a chance to know his wonderful teachings, as I stated previously they would then face eternal destruction. This would be his FINAL judgment--otherwise known as Judgment Day.


Just my two cents...


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## sugaplum (May 18, 2005)

I believe the same thing Poohbear. I've read all the scriptures pertaining to the statements that you listed.   I also believe that the dead will rise too:

1 Corinthians 15:52 - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 

Romans 6:8 - Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:


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## Poohbear (May 18, 2005)

EssentialGrowth said:
			
		

> Yes, this is event is known as Armageddon, BUT contrary to your statement, Satan and his agents will still be in existence--they would be locked in an abyss for one day, which in God's eyes is a 1,000 year period. After that time, Satan will be unleashed again, but only for a short period. It is then that He, his agents, and those who received a chance to know God but refused him, would be eternally destroyed in the fiery lake of Gehenna.
> 
> Even those who refused to know God right now would be given a chance to eternal life. Those unrighteous ones who "refused to believe Him" during their life course will be given a chance to get to know God during the 1,000 year period. If they still refuse to believe him AFTER given a chance to know his wonderful teachings, as I stated previously they would then face eternal destruction. This would be his FINAL judgment--otherwise known as Judgment Day.
> 
> ...


You are correct. When I said what I said, I wasn't leaving this out of the picture. I just didn't go into detail like you did. In the end, Satan will be defeated and God will do his final judgement.


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## DelightfulFlame (May 18, 2005)

so do you all believe that the lake of fire is a literal fire?

DISCLAIMER: I'm asking what you believe. I'm not asking what I should believe. This is a discussion. I want to see your point of view. We may not agree. I won't think of you as a non-believer, non-bible-believer, non-faith-holder, etc.


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## EssentialGrowth (May 18, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> so do you all believe that the lake of fire is a literal fire?
> 
> DISCLAIMER: I'm asking what you believe. I'm not asking what I should believe. This is a discussion. I want to see your point of view. We may not agree. I won't think of you as a non-believer, non-bible-believer, non-faith-holder, etc.



It is my belief that it is NOT a literal fire but actually just simple death, without the hope of gaining a resurrection.


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## Sweet C (May 18, 2005)

EssentialGrowth said:
			
		

> Though it does not go into detail, the scripture is implying what WILL happen on earth during the Great Tribulation which is to be followed by Armageddon. It is a prelude to what will occur on earth and how it would affect its inhabitants; as you correctly stated, the details of the event is further discussed in the book of Revelations.
> 
> ETA: Is it your belief that Christ's returns is not the Tribulation itself? From what I read, you seem to sequence his return prior to the actual Tribulation.


 
I believe that Christ’s return marks the start or beginning of the Great Tribulation (Mt 24:33-42, 2 Thess 2, 1 Cor 6:19).    When Christ returns, those who are faithful would be resurrected to be with Christ. What I am saying is the verses in 1 Thess 4 are not pertaining to those who aren’t faithful, and those who aren’t faithful are not resurrected to live on earth.  



As far as the belief that you would go to heaven or hell when you die, it has merit.  I think most churches say this b/c it’s a lot easier than explaining the Abraham’s Bosom/Paradise and Sheol/Hades concept.  From scripture, when the righteous die, they go to Paradise or Abraham’s bosom (Lk 23:43, Lk 16:22).  Now there is much theological debate as to where exactly Paradise is located, b/c the bible doesn’t tell us.    Those who aren’t righteous and die, go to Hades or hell, but not the lake of fire (Lk 16:23, Acts 2:31).


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## Honeyhips (May 18, 2005)

I'm asking you to post the scriptureand you can go to crosswalk to get it. 





			
				Poohbear said:
			
		

> What are you saying?


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## Honeyhips (May 18, 2005)

Where did the idea of the lake of fire come from? What is paradise like? What is hades like?

Df, you haven't told us what you think yet.

Also if you all have a scripture reference that would be great. You can also post it here by going to crosswalk.com and copying it from there. They also have many different translations.


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## DelightfulFlame (May 18, 2005)

I've been stepping in and out of this thread today in b/w meetings.

I can't really tell you what I think, because I don't really know. But I can tell you what I don't think. I don't believe that people are going to hell forever. I don't believe that Revelations is literal. I don't believe that the Savior of the world will fail and let 2/3 of the world burn forever. I will post scripture when I have more time to really dive into it.


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## mrslee (May 18, 2005)

Honeyhips said:
			
		

> *4:16* For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: *4:17* Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. *4:18* Wherefore comfort one another with these words
> 
> 
> I was taught, and I will pull up scriptures later that God would not destroy the Earth, but would renew it.



Do you really believe it will happen this way. Just imagine if we were to see a giant face coming through the clouds..... we would all die from cardiac arrest! I dont believe we should take the Bible literally. We get freaked out when we hear about flying saucers....


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## mrslee (May 18, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> so do you all believe that the lake of fire is a literal fire?
> 
> DISCLAIMER: I'm asking what you believe. I'm not asking what I should believe. This is a discussion. I want to see your point of view. We may not agree. I won't think of you as a non-believer, non-bible-believer, non-faith-holder, etc.



I don't think we should take the bible literally. Afterall the bible was written by man. 

I believe heaven or hell is within oneself. We have the choice of living our lives to become a Supreme Being within ourselves.


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## MomofThreeBoys (May 18, 2005)

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:8.

The wicked die the second death in hellfire. If the wicked lived forever being tortured in hell, they would be immortal. But this is impossible, because the Bible says God "only hath immortality." 1 Timothy 6:16. When Adam and Eve were driven from the Garden of Eden, an angel was posted to guard the tree of life so that sinners would not eat of the tree and "live for ever." Genesis 3:22-24. The teaching that sinners are immortal in hell originated with Satan and is completely untrue. God prevented this when sin entered this earth by guarding the tree of life.

  The Bible says the wicked  suffer "death" (Romans 6:23), will suffer "destruction" (Job 21:30),  "shall perish" (Psalm 37:20),  will "burn" up (Malachi 4:1),  "shall be destroyed together" (Psalm 37:38),  will "consume away" (Psalm 37:20),  "shall be cut off" (Psalm 37:9), "shall be slain" (Psalm 62:3).  God will "destroy" them (Psalm 145:20), and  "fire shall devour them" (Psalm 21:9).  Note that all of these references make it clear that the wicked die and are destroyed. They do not live forever in misery.

"Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it." Isaiah 47:14. "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth." "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." Revelation 21:1, 4.

The Bible specifically teaches that hellfire will go out and that there will not be left "a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it." The Bible also teaches that in God's new kingdom all "former things" will be passed away. Hell, being one of the former things, is included, so we have God's promise that it will be abolished.



			
				DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> I've been stepping in and out of this thread today in b/w meetings.
> 
> I can't really tell you what I think, because I don't really know. But I can tell you what I don't think. *I don't believe that people are going to hell forever.* I don't believe that Revelations is literal. I don't believe that the Savior of the world will fail and let 2/3 of the world burn forever. I will post scripture when I have more time to really dive into it.


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## Koffie (May 18, 2005)

mrslee said:
			
		

> I don't think we should take the bible literally. Afterall the bible was written by man.
> 
> I believe heaven or hell is within oneself. We have the choice of living our lives to become a Supreme Being within ourselves.



Not trying to be funny, but I find it interesting that this was posted on your 666th post.


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## Honeyhips (May 18, 2005)

I gotcha. I wasn't trying to call you out either. YOu said you believed something different and I just wanted to hear it all. I personally don't have an opinon because I haven't studied ityet. I used to be afraid to read about Christ's return.

I'm looking forward to your thoughts. Wait a minute... you actually work?    People actually work at work?  Wow...  




			
				DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> I've been stepping in and out of this thread today in b/w meetings.
> 
> I can't really tell you what I think, because I don't really know. But I can tell you what I don't think. I don't believe that people are going to hell forever. I don't believe that Revelations is literal. I don't believe that the Savior of the world will fail and let 2/3 of the world burn forever. I will post scripture when I have more time to really dive into it.


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## melodee (May 18, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> Yes. I agree. This will happen during the time that God destroys the earth.
> 
> *One day, God's anger toward sin will be fully and completely unleashed*. Satan will be defeated with all of his agents. False religion will be destroyed. God will reward the faithful with eternal life, but all who refuse to believe in Him will face eternal punishment.
> The importance of this is that evil and injustice will not prevail forever. God's final judgement will put an end to these. We need to be certain of our committment to Jesus if we want to escape this great final judgement. No one who is uncommitted to Christ will escape God's punishment.


 
It's like we are all living at the time when the sand in the hourglass is mostly poured out in the bottom half.  God's tolerance toward sin is holding out, but soon the last grain of sand will hit the bottom and this is when the trib will begin.  I believe that the church (meaning those who have accepted Christ) will be taken out of here before all "heck" breaks loose.


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## sugaplum (May 19, 2005)

mrslee said:
			
		

> I don't think we should take the bible literally. Afterall the bible was written by man.
> 
> I believe heaven or hell is within oneself. We have the choice of living our lives to become a Supreme Being within ourselves.



Intresting:scratchch...my cousin is of the Ba'hai Faith and he believes the same thing.


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## DelightfulFlame (May 19, 2005)

Honeyhips said:
			
		

> I'm looking forward to your thoughts. Wait a minute... you actually work?    People actually work at work?  Wow...



LOL... I know! That is a mystery to me too.


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## sprungonhairboards (May 19, 2005)

natalied said:
			
		

> "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:8.
> 
> The wicked die the second death in hellfire. If the wicked lived forever being tortured in hell, they would be immortal. But this is impossible, because the Bible says God "only hath immortality." 1 Timothy 6:16. When Adam and Eve were driven from the Garden of Eden, an angel was posted to guard the tree of life so that sinners would not eat of the tree and "live for ever." Genesis 3:22-24. The teaching that sinners are immortal in hell originated with Satan and is completely untrue. God prevented this when sin entered this earth by guarding the tree of life.
> 
> ...



Very, very intersting interpretation. So are you saying the dead (the unriteous), when they are dead and destroyed, just go away, like dead and gone? Because if so what's the motivation to be and live saved. Eternal life that we cannot as humans fathom anyway? Why not live as we want now and just accept death? We can't imagine what it was like not being born so why would death be any different? I hope Im making sense, probably not but you got my brain to whirling


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## MomofThreeBoys (May 19, 2005)

Yes, they are dead and gone as the scriptures I provided say.

The motivation is the promises set forth by Christ when you accept him.  They are
1) seeing your Saviour whom you truly love and being with Him
2) Heaven
3) Eternal life

Even if there was an eternal fire, we cannot "play" Christian to avoid it. In other words, we shouldn't choose Christ because we are afraid of the final death. Choosing Christ as the lesser of two options is not the same as choosing him because you love Him and proclaim Him to be your Lord and Saviour. Christ knows our hearts and our motivation.

Matthew 7:21-24
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you 
evildoers!'

 ETA: God does not try the use fear to get us to love him and accept Him.  This is not his character.  His character is centered around love. 



			
				sprungonhairboards said:
			
		

> Very, very intersting interpretation. So are you saying the dead (the unriteous), when they are dead and destroyed, just go away, like dead and gone? Because if so what's the motivation to be and live saved. Eternal life that we cannot as humans fathom anyway? Why not live as we want now and just accept death? We can't imagine what it was like not being born so why would death be any different? I hope Im making sense, probably not but you got my brain to whirling


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## DelightfulFlame (May 19, 2005)

About taking the bible literally...I do believe that there are literal parts in there somewhere...just not many...LOL. 

Seriously, even the bible says not to take it literally. It says that you can't understand spiritual things with a carnal mind. 

*John 6
63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.*

*1 Cor 2
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 
15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. *

*Proverbs 25
2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter. *

*Romans 8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.*

*1 Corinthians 3
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? *

Even Jesus isn't to be taken literally, as He himself said.

*Matthew 13
34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: *

Why? Didn't Jesus want the whole world to clearly understand Him? 

*Matthew 13
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. *

The apostles didn't even understand the parables. *(Matthew 13:36-37, 15:15)*

Notice at the beginning of Revelation, John was standing in the SPIRIT.

*Revelation 1
10I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, *

--------------------------------------------
As for the fire...

*1 Corinthians 3
11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

and check this out...

Hebrews 12
29 FOR OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE.

and if you think the fire in the bible is literal, then is this fire literal too?

James 3
6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. 

There are some more things that I'm studying. Translation issues...like in Revelation where it says "forever and ever". That has never made sense to me. It's like saying infinity and finity(is that a word? well insert "finite" if it isn't...LOL).*


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## DelightfulFlame (May 19, 2005)

natalied said:
			
		

> The wicked die the second death in hellfire. If the wicked lived forever being tortured in hell, they would be immortal. But this is impossible, because the Bible says God "only hath immortality." 1 Timothy 6:16.



This stance confuses me. Scripture says that only God has immortality now. But if God is the only one that will have it from now on, then wouldn't we all cease to exist...whether wicked or not?


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## MomofThreeBoys (May 19, 2005)

The bible talks to us in 3 different ways:

*historically* - documentation of events that have happened (i.e. The Flood, Jews enslaved by Egypt, etc., Crucifiction)
*prophetically* - predicts things that will happen (i.e. prophecies in the Old Testmament regarding Christ)
*figuratively* - parables (The Prodigal Son)


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## sprungonhairboards (May 19, 2005)

natalied said:
			
		

> Yes, they are dead and gone as the scriptures I provided say.
> 
> *The motivation is the promises set forth by Christ when you accept him.  They are
> 1) seeing your Saviour whom you truly love and being with Him
> ...



But honestly, isnt that the main motivation for alot if not most people who come to Christ initially?

Knowing, loving and learning about the Savior comes later for alot of Christians. *Alot * of people are not driven to Christ based on love for him. At least not in the beginning. If there were no consequences for sin and the fear of eternal damnation I'm not sure if salvation would be as big a  priority for alot of people. And if you don't believe anyway, why would spending eternity in heaven with Jesus be motivation to get saved?


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## MomofThreeBoys (May 19, 2005)

No. Immortality is a gift given to those who believe and accept Christ by God. The gift of eternal life. The wicked with not "receive" this gift and then perish.
*
Romans 6:23*
  For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.



			
				DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> This stance confuses me. If God is the only immortal one, then wouldn't we all cease to exist, whether wicked or not?


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## MomofThreeBoys (May 19, 2005)

Not for me. I grew up in the Church and left during college. I was having a grand ole time. But I felt something wasn't right with my life. That was the Holy Spirit tugging on me. I didn't go back b/c I feared death. I went back b/c I felt God trying to speak to me and then developed a relationship with him.



			
				sprungonhairboards said:
			
		

> But honestly, isnt that the main motivation for alot if not most people who come to Christ initially?
> 
> Knowing, loving and learning about the Savior comes later for alot of Christians. *Alot * of people are not driven to Christ based on love for him. At least not in the beginning. If there were no consequences for sin and the fear of eternal damnation I'm not sure if salvation would be as big a priority for alot of people. And if you don't believe anyway, why would spending eternity in heaven with Jesus be motivation to get saved?


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## DelightfulFlame (May 19, 2005)

natalied said:
			
		

> No. Immortality is a gift given to those who believe and accept Christ by God. The gift of eternal life. The wicked with not "receive" this gift and then perish.
> *
> Romans 6:23*
> For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.



Oh. I see. And that's a whole 'other post. Working for the gift...aka "receiving" it.


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## MomofThreeBoys (May 19, 2005)

Exactly! 



			
				DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> Oh. I see. And that's a whole 'other post. Working for the gift...aka "receiving" it.


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## JenJen2721 (May 19, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> *1 Corinthians 3
> 1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
> 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
> 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? *
> ...



DF,

I looked up the scripture you printed in the New International Version of the bible.  I don't read the KJV very much because it reminds me of Shakespeare and I was never good at Shakespeare, plus we don't talk like that anyway.  

So here it is from NIV:

1 Corinthians 3
On Divisions in the Church 
    1Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? 4For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men? 

No where did Jesus say that we should not take him literally. 

But that's your interpretation, the average person would not interpret it like that.  Bible reading does require common sense, but I don't understand how you interpreted that scripture that way. 

BTW, I thought this forum was for Christians??? You don't consider yourself a Christian correct?


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## JenJen2721 (May 19, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> *Romans 8
> 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.*



Another misinterpretation, imho...here's the NIV in other words, plain english:

Romans 8
7the sinful mind[f] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. 

It says, the sinful mind....not the literal mind.  Big difference.


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## sprungonhairboards (May 19, 2005)

natalied said:
			
		

> *Not for me*. I grew up in the Church and left during college. I was having a grand ole time. But I felt something wasn't right with my life. That was the Holy Spirit tugging on me. I didn't go back b/c I feared death. I went back b/c I felt God trying to speak to me and then developed a relationship with him.



Me either, but thats not the case for everybody. Thats what I'm saying. Everybody didnt grow up in church or with saved influences. Some have closed minds and do not wish to receive. Some believe fully in other religions or are atheists all together. What's their motivation to submit if not the fear of retribution? But like you said I believe the Holy Spirit can call us out of whatever darkness we are in and turn even the most hardened hearts around, maybe that's my answer.


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## kisz4tj (May 19, 2005)

Ya know.......God the Father sent his son to die, be pierced on the cross for me, before I was even conceived.  I don't surrender my life to Christ out of fear.  It's because he LOVES me in spite of myself.  I don't know anyone who has done it out of fear...it's all about LOVE.


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## DelightfulFlame (May 19, 2005)

JenJen2721 said:
			
		

> DF,
> 
> I looked up the scripture you printed in the New International Version of the bible.  I don't read the KJV very much because it reminds me of Shakespeare and I was never good at Shakespeare, plus we don't talk like that anyway.
> 
> ...



Translation issues...exactly what I said I was studying. There's a great example that you just posted. 

What's it to you what I consider myself? If you must know, I'm probably not a Christian by today's standards. But Jesus wasn't either, so does it really matter? I thought we were here in this thread discussing the Word of God.


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## sprungonhairboards (May 19, 2005)

kisz4tj said:
			
		

> *Ya know.......God the Father sent his son to die, be pierced on the cross for me, before I was even conceived.  I don't surrender my life to Christ out of fear.  It's because he LOVES me in spite of myself.*  I don't know anyone who has done it out of fear...it's all about LOVE.




First you have to believe that. Not everyone does.


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## MomofThreeBoys (May 19, 2005)

I don't know anyone who came into the church b/c of of fear. The motivation is the Holy Spirit. That tugging is not exclusive to Christians. It is for everyone. I just don't believe everyone has the same "light". A person in China might not know of "Christ" but they feel that tugging to worship a "being" or to live a righteous life the best way he knows how. God has followers who are not Christians. One day when they hear the Gospel and the Lord convicts them, they will accept. But until then, they belong to Christ because they are living according to the light they have been given.

John 10:16
16I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice; and there will be one flock with one shepherd.

A biblical example of this would be Rahab. I believe she felt that tugging. She was a heathen prostitute but she knew!!!! She had heard about the God of Israel but she didn't grow up around them or was raised in a Godly home. Her story can be found in Joshua 2.



			
				sprungonhairboards said:
			
		

> Me either, but thats not the case for everybody. Thats what I'm saying. Everybody didnt grow up in church or with saved influences. Some have closed minds and do not wish to receive. Some believe fully in other religions or are atheists all together. What's their motivation to submit if not the fear of retribution? But like you said I believe the Holy Spirit can call us out of whatever darkness we are in and turn even the most hardened hearts around, maybe that's my answer.


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## kisz4tj (May 19, 2005)

natalied said:
			
		

> I don't know anyone who came into the church b/c of of fear. The motivation is the Holy Spirit. That tugging is not exclusive to Christians. It is for everyone. I just don't believe everyone has the same "light". A person in China might not know of "Christ" but they feel that tugging to worship a "being" or to live a righteous life the best way he knows how. God has followers who are not Christians. One day when they hear the Gospel and the Lord convicts them, they will accept. But until then, they belong to Christ because they are living according to the light they have been given.
> 
> John 10:16
> 16I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice; and there will be one flock with one shepherd.
> ...


Good example.


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## DelightfulFlame (May 19, 2005)

natalied said:
			
		

> I don't know anyone who came into the church b/c of of fear. The motivation is the Holy Spirit. That tugging is not exclusive to Christians. It is for everyone. I just don't believe everyone has the same "light". A person in China might not know of "Christ" but they feel that tugging to worship a "being" or to live a righteous life the best way he knows how. God has followers who are not Christians. One day when they hear the Gospel and the Lord convicts them, they will accept. But until then, they belong to Christ because they are living according to the light they have been given.
> 
> John 10:16
> 16I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice; and there will be one flock with one shepherd.
> ...



I do know some people that came out of fear, and I'm included. I was raised Baptist, and I heard way more about hell and the devil then I ever heard about God. 51 weeks out of the year, they preached about the devil and it seemed like 1 week they decided to talk about love. Of course that is an exaggeration, but growing up listening to that mess...I thought God was crazy! He couldn't even keep us from the devil, and when He did...it was only so He could smash us, send some bugs to sting us, swallow us up in a whale, burn us up, or drown us. LOL...it took a long time for me to really love God, and I'm still growing in that everyday.


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## JenJen2721 (May 19, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> Translation issues...exactly what I said I was studying. There's a great example that you just posted.
> 
> What's it to you what I consider myself? If you must know, I'm probably not a Christian by today's standards. But Jesus wasn't either, so does it really matter? I thought we were here in this thread discussing the Word of God.



My beef is not whether you're a Christian or not, but according to the rules of this forum, non-Christians shouldn't be posting here.  IMHO, this forum is for Christian sisters to uplift one another, not for non-Christians to dispute what we believe in, which is what I see in a lot of your posts.  We are all at different points in our Christian journey, but to me when you post here disputing this and that, it may be harmful for some Christians that are weaker in their journey.  I suspect that's why the rules were set up the way that they were.  I also don't care whether you're a Christian according to "today's standards" it's whether you consider yourself a Christian.  It's not for me to say, that's why I asked whether you considered yourself a Christian. 

And yes, we are here to discuss the Word of God.


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## sprungonhairboards (May 19, 2005)

natalied The motivation is the Holy Spirit. That tugging is not exclusive to Christians. It is for everyone. I just don't believe everyone has the same "light". A person in China might not know of "Christ" but they feel that tugging to worship a "being" or to live a righteous life the best way he knows how. [B said:
			
		

> God has followers who are not Christians[/B]. One day when they hear the Gospel and the Lord convicts them, they will accept. *But until then, they belong to Christ because they are living according to the light they have been given.*



I know the tugging is not exclusive to Christians, Christians by definition are those who have already come to Christ. Your bolded part confused me a little, if you're not following Christ what God would they be following that still allow them to be Christians?


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## DelightfulFlame (May 19, 2005)

JenJen2721 said:
			
		

> My beef is not whether you're a Christian or not, but according to the rules of this forum, non-Christians shouldn't be posting here.  IMHO, this forum is for Christian sisters to uplift one another, not for non-Christians to dispute what we believe in, which is what I see in a lot of your posts.  We are all at different points in our Christian journey, but to me when you post here disputing this and that, it may be harmful for some Christians that are weaker in their journey.  I suspect that's why the rules were set up the way that they were.  I also don't care whether you're a Christian according to "today's standards" it's whether you consider yourself a Christian.  It's not for me to say, that's why I asked whether you considered yourself a Christian.
> 
> And yes, we are here to discuss the Word of God.



you say this forum is to uplift...who am I tearing down? 

I have discussions about the Word, just like everyone else. People make snide remarks to me all day long about who I am, rather than just post about the topic at hand. I try to respond as lovingly as I know how, even though my strength is tested constantly. 

Can only Christians who fit your box of what a Christian should be post here? Why not just have a conversation with yourself, since anyone who doesn't agree with you is obviously not worthy.

Have a blessed day, 'cause I really don't want to go any farther on this with you. This is not edifying and I sure don't get the feeling you are coming at me in love. Good day.


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## JenJen2721 (May 19, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> you say this forum is to uplift...who am I tearing down?



See the part in my post about weaker Christians....also the bible mentions strengthening weaker Christians.



			
				DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> I have discussions about the Word, just like everyone else. People make snide remarks to me all day long about who I am, rather than just post about the topic at hand. I try to respond as lovingly as I know how, even though my strength is tested constantly.
> 
> Can only Christians who fit your box of what a Christian should be post here? Why not just have a conversation with yourself, since anyone who doesn't agree with you is obviously not worthy.



I never said that ANYWHERE in my posts.  Don't make false accusations. Again, that's your interpretation.



			
				DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> Have a blessed day, 'cause I really don't want to go any farther on this with you. This is not edifying and I sure don't get the feeling you are coming at me in love. Good day.



You too, DelightfulFlame....I felt very strongly about what I posted, perhaps that's why you didn't feel the love.  I didn't sugarcoat at all, but I still love you. 

Maybe another day...

--Jen


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## MomofThreeBoys (May 19, 2005)

It's hard to explain via internet.  Humm.   Going to church does not equal being a Christian in my book.  Coming to an edifice and "doing the right things" does not make you a Christian.

People come to church for many different reasons.  Companionship, habit, social structure, peer pressure, family pressure,etc.  None of these is a basis for a relationship with Christ.

Accepting Christ with your entire being and loving him is being a Christian.  Fear plays not part in this.  

A relationship with Christ based on fear is not of God. 

2Timothy:1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind




			
				DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> I do know some people that came out of fear, and I'm included. I was raised Baptist, and I heard way more about hell and the devil then I ever heard about God. 51 weeks out of the year, they preached about the devil and it seemed like 1 week they decided to talk about love. Of course that is an exaggeration, but growing up listening to that mess...I thought God was crazy! He couldn't even keep us from the devil, and when He did...it was only so He could smash us, send some bugs to sting us, swallow us up in a whale, burn us up, or drown us. LOL...it took a long time for me to really love God, and I'm still growing in that everyday.


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## MomofThreeBoys (May 19, 2005)

It is based on this text:

 John 10:16
 I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice; and there will be one flock with one shepherd.

You might not know "Him" by the *name* of Christ, but you know "He" or "something" is there guiding you and watching over you. You BELONG to Christ, meaning you are his sheep,  but are not in the sheepfold, don't belong to the Christian Church in name.




			
				sprungonhairboards said:
			
		

> I know the tugging is not exclusive to Christians, Christians by definition are those who have already come to Christ. Your bolded part confused me a little, if you're not following Christ what God would they be following that still allow them to be Christians?


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## sprungonhairboards (May 19, 2005)

natalied said:
			
		

> It is based on this text:
> 
> John 10:16
> I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice; and there will be one flock with one shepherd.
> ...



Gotcha


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## DelightfulFlame (May 19, 2005)

JenJen2721 said:
			
		

> See the part in my post about weaker Christians....also the bible mentions strengthening weaker Christians.
> 
> I never said that ANYWHERE in my posts.  Don't make false accusations. Again, that's your interpretation.
> 
> ...



You know I said I wasn't going to post anything else to you, but I must say this. What strengthens more than studying the Word of God? God's word can't be questioned? The truth is the truth...no matter who asks. When something confuses me, it doesn't mean that it's bad. It means I need to LEARN more about that subject...pray, meditate, discuss, study, etc...until I gain the understanding that I need.


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## DelightfulFlame (May 19, 2005)

natalied said:
			
		

> It's hard to explain via internet.  Humm.   Going to church does not equal being a Christian in my book.  Coming to an edifice and "doing the right things" does not make you a Christian.
> 
> People come to church for many different reasons.  Companionship, habit, social structure, peer pressure, family pressure,etc.  None of these is a basis for a relationship with Christ.
> 
> ...



ITA!  My point exactly. What is a Christian anyhow? Ask a million different folks and get a thousand different answers depending on denomination. It's just a title. Man looks outwardly, but God looks at the heart.


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## beverly (May 19, 2005)

Delightful Flame, per the forum rules - the whole purpose of me creating this forum was to encourage and uplift Jesus Christ. And the "christianity forum" is only for those who believe in the bible 100%. We use to have arguments and bickering all the time on the Off Topic board that is why I wanted a peaceful place to uplift Christ. Delightful Flame you stated that you did not believe in the bible 100% and that is your right and is repected. The purpose of this particular forum is not to validate how much of a christian you are, that is between you and the Lord. If you or anyone else does not believe 100% in the bible this forum is not the place for you. Since you stated that you do not parts for the bible and that is offensive to many people in this forum. That type of stuff is actually allowed on the off topic board if you want to post it there. Thank you for your cooperation.


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## MomofThreeBoys (May 19, 2005)

The word "Christian" is a label.  It means follower of Christ/Christ's teaching.  How we BECOME a follower of Christ is what people debate over.  We need the name b/c otherwise how would we distinquish ourselves (followers of Christ) from followers of another (like followers of Buddha)?  



			
				DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> ITA! My point exactly. What is a Christian anyhow? Ask a million different folks and get a thousand different answers depending on denomination. It's just a title. Man looks outwardly, but God looks at the heart.


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## DelightfulFlame (May 19, 2005)

beverly said:
			
		

> Delightful Flame, per the forum rules - the whole purpose of me creating this forum was to encourage and uplift Jesus Christ. And the "christianity forum" is only for those who believe in the bible 100%. We use to have arguments and bickering all the time on the Off Topic board that is why I wanted a peaceful place to uplift Christ. Delightful Flame you stated that you did not believe in the bible 100% and that is your right and is repected. The purpose of this particular forum is not to validate how much of a christian you are, that is between you and the Lord. If you or anyone else does not believe 100% in the bible this forum is not the place for you. Since you stated that you do not parts for the bible and that is offensive to many people in this forum. That type of stuff is actually allowed on the off topic board if you want to post it there. Thank you for your cooperation.



When? I stated that I do not believe what everyone says about the bible.

But whatever. It's time for me to move on anyhow.

Matthew 10
14And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.


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## Honeyhips (May 19, 2005)

I tried to say this before. 





			
				sprungonhairboards said:
			
		

> But honestly, isnt that the main motivation for alot if not most people who come to Christ initially?
> 
> Knowing, loving and learning about the Savior comes later for alot of Christians. *Alot *of people are not driven to Christ based on love for him. *At least not in the beginning. If there were no consequences for sin and the fear of eternal damnation I'm not sure if salvation would be as big a priority for alot of people. And if you don't believe anyway, why would spending eternity in heaven with Jesus be motivation to get saved?*


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## Honeyhips (May 19, 2005)

Wait, what? 





			
				DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> Oh. I see. And that's a whole 'other post. Working for the gift...aka "receiving" it.


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## Poohbear (May 19, 2005)

beverly said:
			
		

> Delightful Flame, per the forum rules - the whole purpose of me creating this forum was to encourage and uplift Jesus Christ. And the *"christianity forum" is only for those who believe in the bible 100%*. We use to have arguments and bickering all the time on the Off Topic board that is why I wanted a peaceful place to uplift Christ. Delightful Flame you stated that you did not believe in the bible 100% and that is your right and is repected. The purpose of this particular forum is not to validate how much of a christian you are, that is between you and the Lord. If you or anyone else does not believe 100% in the bible this forum is not the place for you. Since you stated that you do not parts for the bible and that is offensive to many people in this forum. That type of stuff is actually allowed on the off topic board if you want to post it there. Thank you for your cooperation.


Thank you. I knew me and JenJen wasn't the only ones who noticed this...


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## JuJuBoo (May 19, 2005)

Natalied, are you saying there's no such thing as Hell??


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## MomofThreeBoys (May 19, 2005)

JuJuBoo said:
			
		

> Natalied, are you saying there's no such thing as Hell??



Depends on how you define Hell.  I believe the wicked will be judged with Satan and thrown into the lake of fire.

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:8.

I just don't believe that the fire is never ending.  This is the second and final death.  I don't believe they are burning forever.  Death = dead.


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## ROZELIDA_80 (May 20, 2005)

Haven't posted in this forum and not much at all on the site.  But I find this forum to be very inspirational and educational from the abstinence challenge to the daily reading.  This includes the posts from all including Pooh Bear and Delight Fame and the "arguments" or rather discussions as this is the only way to gain true knowledge and understanding. 


Just my opinion.


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## Honeyhips (May 20, 2005)

So if people don't agree, they have to leave?


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## JuJuBoo (May 20, 2005)

natalied said:
			
		

> Depends on how you define Hell.  I believe the wicked will be judged with Satan and thrown into the lake of fire.
> 
> "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:8.
> 
> I just don't believe that the fire is never ending.  This is the second and final death.  I don't believe they are burning forever.  Death = dead.



I see. If the fire is never ending, then how long is it? When is the fire burning? How do you interpret other scriptures that describe Hell or Hades? 

I'm sorry, I'm asking a lot of questions because I haven't met a lot of Christian's that don't believe in Hell.

How do you interpret the following scripture? 

*Luke 16

*** 19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

*** 22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

*** 25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

*** 27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

*** 29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

*** 30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

*** 31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "*


FYI, I'm goin to bed! I'll finish tomorrow night.


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## MomofThreeBoys (May 20, 2005)

But I do believe in Hell.  Just not an everlasting, forever burning hell.

The story of Lazarus is a parable used to emphasize a point. Many facts make it clear that this is a parable. Here are a few:

 A. Abraham's bosom is not heaven (Hebrews 11:8-10, 16). 
 B. People in hell can't talk to those in heaven (Isaiah 65:17).
 C. The dead are in their graves (Job 17:13; John 5:28, 29). The rich man was in bodily form with eyes, a tongue, etc., yet we know that the body does not go to hell at death. It is very obvious that the body remains in the grave, as the Bible says.
 D. Men are rewarded at Christ's second coming, not at death (Revelation 22:11, 12).
 E. The lost are punished in hell at the end of the world, not when they die (Matthew 13:40-42). The point of the story is found in verse 31 of Luke 16. 

Parables cannot be taken literally. If we took parables literally, then we must believe that trees talk! (See this parable in Judges 9:8-15.)

*Here are some more verses that contradict and ever burning hell:*

"For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be." "The enemies of the Lord ... shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalm 37:10, 20.

"Rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28. 

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:20.

"They went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." Revelation 20:9.

The wages of sin is death not a forever torment in hell. An eternal burning hell with people forever in pain is contrary to the loving nature of God.



			
				JuJuBoo said:
			
		

> I see. If the fire is never ending, then how long is it? When is the fire burning? How do you interpret other scriptures that describe Hell or Hades?
> 
> I'm sorry, I'm asking a lot of questions because I haven't met a lot of Christian's that don't believe in Hell.
> 
> ...


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## MomofThreeBoys (May 20, 2005)

JuJuBoo said:
			
		

> I see. If the fire is never ending, then how long is it? When is the fire burning? How do you interpret other scriptures that describe Hell or Hades?



The bible doesn't tell us how long it is. 

When? "So shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man ... shall cast them into a furnace of fire." Matthew 13:40-42.The fire burns after the judgement of Satan and the wicked at the second resurrection. "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished."              2 Peter 2:9."The word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." John 12:48. "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:15.

 Here is another way of looking at it.  If God is to make a new Heaven and a new Earth as stated in the following passage:

"The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." 2 Peter 3:10.

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth." "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." Revelation 21:1, 4.

Where would an eternal hell be if the the old earth is burned away and God provides a new heaven and a new earth?  

Also, if as the verse states above that the former things are passed away and there is no more pain, how does that align with a forever burning hell?

The wages (or punishment) for sin is death, not everlasting life in hellfire. The wicked "perish," or receive "death." The righteous receive "everlasting life

I believe that It is God's plan to isolate sin and blot it out of existence for all time.  Thus, the complete destruction of the wicked and Satan.

Good discussion.  Goodnight to you too!


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## Poohbear (May 20, 2005)

Some believe you'll burn forever in Hell for eternity...

Some believe you'll just burn up and turn into ashes and that's it.


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## Poohbear (May 20, 2005)

Here's a scripture that weaveitup posted in another thread that may help:



			
				weaveitup said:
			
		

> along with that, i belive the theory of hell is wrong too. im not sure where it comes from. but if you read Malachi 4:1-3 it says that the sinners wont burn eternally, but rather that they will burn up and turn to ashes.
> 
> Mal 4:1For, behold, the day cometh, *that shall burn as an oven*; and all the proud, yea, *and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts*, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
> 
> ...


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## sprungonhairboards (May 20, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> Some believe you'll burn forever in Hell for eternity...
> 
> Some believe you'll just burn up and turn into ashes and that's it.



Let's just plan not to do either one


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## BlkHoneyLuv2U (May 20, 2005)

sprungonhairboards said:
			
		

> Let's just plan not to do either one


 
I'm with you. Its already hot enough here in the south. I know I couldnt stand that up close kinda personal type of heat. So lets just make plans now not to find out later. Go with God all the way.


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## Poohbear (May 20, 2005)

sprungonhairboards said:
			
		

> Let's just plan not to do either one


Yeah, you got that right!  

I'm not worried about Hell either because I know I'm going to live with my Lord in Heaven.


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## EssentialGrowth (May 20, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> Yeah, you got that right!
> 
> I'm not worried about Hell either because I know I'm going to live with my Lord in Heaven.



Don't be too sure about that...


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## Poohbear (May 20, 2005)

EssentialGrowth said:
			
		

> Don't be too sure about that...


Why not? I believe in my heart that God raised His son Jesus Christ from the dead to live with me throughout the rest of my life. I am saved. Thank the Lord!


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## sprungonhairboards (May 20, 2005)

EssentialGrowth said:
			
		

> Don't be too sure about that...



I'm curious as to what you mean by this too


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## EssentialGrowth (May 20, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> Why not? I believe in my heart that God raised His son Jesus Christ from the dead to live with me throughout the rest of my life. I am saved. Thank the Lord!




Oh great, here goes the usual rhetorical chant of Christians thinking they are "saved"...what does that mean anyway??!! 


As far as my previous comment...open your bible and read Zephaniah 2:3...and yes, those words are applicable for this day and age.


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## sprungonhairboards (May 20, 2005)

EssentialGrowth said:
			
		

> *Oh great, here goes the usual rhetorical chant of Christians thinking they are "saved"...what does that mean anyway??!! :huh*:
> 
> 
> As far as my previous comment...open your bible and read Zephaniah 2:3...and yes, those words are applicable for this day and age.



Um hello, this IS the CHRISTIAN forum, go back a couple pages where the mission statement was again explained.


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## EssentialGrowth (May 20, 2005)

sprungonhairboards said:
			
		

> Um hello, this IS the CHRISTIAN forum, go back a couple pages where the mission statement was again explained.




And what is your point exactly...?


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## MomofThreeBoys (May 20, 2005)

I don't believe in once saved always saved and therefore I believe salvation can be forfeited. 

BUT why is there something wrong with claiming the gift of Eternal life that Jesus Christ has promised his believers?  *If you are in God's will and are surrendered rejoice and accept this wonderful gift!!!* He says

*John 12:26*
  If any man serve  me, let him  follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: *if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.*

 *1 Corinthians 1:18*

18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, *but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.*

*John 3:16-18*

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18*Whoever believes in him is not condemned*, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
*
2 Peter 1:10-11*

10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to  *make your calling and election sure*. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

*John 17:3*
  And this is the way to  have eternal life--to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth.  

*Plan on being in heaven.  Make your election sure my sisters!!!!*



			
				EssentialGrowth said:
			
		

> Oh great, here goes the usual rhetorical chant of Christians thinking they are "saved"...what does that mean anyway??!!
> 
> 
> As far as my previous comment...open your bible and read Zephaniah 2:3...and yes, those words are applicable for this day and age.


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## Poohbear (May 20, 2005)

EssentialGrowth said:
			
		

> Oh great, here goes the usual rhetorical chant of Christians thinking they are "saved"...what does that mean anyway??!!
> 
> 
> As far as my previous comment...open your bible and read Zephaniah 2:3...and yes, those words are applicable for this day and age.


I believe everything in the Bible applies to today. That verse is talking about God's judgement on those who sin and are not walking with God. We must pray for forgiveness of our sin, ask God to bring us into his heavenly Kingdom, and humbly obey him. And at the end time, when God comes to judge, you cannot say "But no one told me". That's why you must turn to Jesus for salvation. He is the way, the truth, and the life. You must be born again and resurrected in Christ in order to have salvation. When you have salvation, you are saved. 

Enough said. May have to add one more person to my ignore list I guess...


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## EssentialGrowth (May 20, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> I believe everything in the Bible applies to today. That verse is talking about God's judgement on those who sin and are not walking with God. We must pray for forgiveness of our sin, ask God to bring us into his heavenly Kingdom, and humbly obey him. And at the end time, when God comes to judge, you cannot say "But no one told me". That's why you must turn to Jesus for salvation. He is the way, the truth, and the life. You must be born again and resurrected in Christ in order to have salvation. When you have salvation, you are saved.
> 
> Enough said. May have to add one more person to my ignore list I guess...



Do what you must...but Zephaniah 2:3 is not referring to sinners as you suggest, but rather is referring to the righteous.

Reads the scripture: "seek Jehovah [God], all YOU meek ones of the earth, who have practiced His own judicial decision. Seek righteousness, seek meekness. PROBABLY YOU may be concealed in the day of Jehovah’s anger."

My point is, just because one claims to be putting faith in the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ does not mean he will be "saved". Just because one attends chruch several times a week and pays tithes, does not guarantee everlasting life as is promised in the Bible. It is up to Jehovah God to make that decision; this is why I responded the way I did earlier. If you believe that is reason enough for me to be added to your ignore list, so be it. 

Have a good one!


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## Koffie (May 20, 2005)

natalied said:
			
		

> I don't believe in once saved always saved and therefore I believe salvation can be forfeited.




ITA with this. Read Matthew 24:45-51

 I don't know if you will get from it what I got from it, but I know one thing.......

That lets me know enuff, that I don't need to be "doing my own thang" just because "God will forgive me"  

Just remember, you know not the day nor the hour Christ will return, so stay in His will.


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## Koffie (May 20, 2005)

EssentialGrowth said:
			
		

> Do what you must...but Zephaniah 2:3 is not referring to sinners as you suggest, but rather is referring to the righteous.
> 
> Reads the scripture: "seek Jehovah [God], all YOU meek ones of the earth, who have practiced His own judicial decision. Seek righteousness, seek meekness. PROBABLY YOU may be concealed in the day of Jehovah’s anger."
> 
> ...




I kinds-sorta get this. I believe I have done MANY hell-bound things in my life, but do I believe that I am going to hell? NO

I will say that because of the fact that I have SEEN God Work in my life AFTER I had committed some BIG sins. Only HE knows my heart, and I promise you all, if there is ANYONE on this board who doubts their salvation, I am here to tell you that God is sooooo soveriegn that HE can do what HE feels best for your situation. Yes, His word is true, but when you find favor with the Lord, HE can do what he pleases with you and your situation. And get you in line with HIM so that you may be blessed. 


Now, I also believe that Everybody sittin in the pews on Sunday ain't gettin to heaven. 

I seriously believe that there are people in the church who know the bible well enough to know that its NOT how they want to live.


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## Poohbear (May 20, 2005)

EssentialGrowth said:
			
		

> My point is, just because one claims to be putting faith in the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ does not mean he will be "saved". Just because one attends chruch several times a week and pays tithes, does not guarantee everlasting life as is promised in the Bible. It is up to Jehovah God to make that decision; this is why I responded the way I did earlier. If you believe that is reason enough for me to be added to your ignore list, so be it.
> 
> Have a good one!


You are correct!!! I didn't say anything about how many times I go to church or pay my tithes or all that other stuff!!! I'm saved because I believe in the Lord!!!

Read Romans 10:9-13 about how to be saved!!!  

*9that (L)if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and (M)believe in your heart that (N)God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; *


*10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. *

*11For the Scripture says, "(O)WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." *

*12For (P)there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is (Q)Lord of (R)all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; **13for "(S)WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." *


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## JuJuBoo (May 20, 2005)

EssentialGrowth said:
			
		

> Do what you must...but Zephaniah 2:3 is not referring to sinners as you suggest, but rather is referring to the righteous.
> 
> Reads the scripture: "seek Jehovah [God], all YOU meek ones of the earth, who have practiced His own judicial decision. Seek righteousness, seek meekness. PROBABLY YOU may be concealed in the day of Jehovah’s anger."
> 
> ...




I'm confused...why the attack??


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## qtgirl (May 24, 2005)

So is that all you need: "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

You can be as backbiting and hypocritical as you want, but if you call on the name of Jesus you're saved and going to Heaven?
_
*I am of course referring to the general you & not you Poohbear._
   



			
				Poohbear said:
			
		

> You are correct!!! I didn't say anything about how many times I go to church or pay my tithes or all that other stuff!!! I'm saved because I believe in the Lord!!!
> 
> Read Romans 10:9-13 about how to be saved!!!
> 
> ...


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## Koffie (May 24, 2005)

qtgirl said:
			
		

> So is that all you need: "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
> 
> You can be as backbiting and hypocritical as you want, but if you call on the name of Jesus you're saved and going to Heaven?
> _
> *I am of course referring to the general you & not you Poohbear._



This question is something that I intend to take up with Jesus.


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## Poohbear (May 24, 2005)

qtgirl said:
			
		

> So is that all you need: "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
> 
> You can be as backbiting and hypocritical as you want, but if you call on the name of Jesus you're saved and going to Heaven?
> 
> _*I am of course referring to the general you & not you Poohbear._


I know qtgirl   but I'll answer your question. I'm going to make a thread about hypocrisy.  Check it out.


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## qtgirl (May 24, 2005)

Please tell me what He says, it's something me and my husband debate all the time.  

I also say that even if Hitler had asked for forgiveness and accepted Christ, he would be saved from eternal damnation.  He can't fathom how all of that could be forgiven.



			
				Koffie said:
			
		

> This question is something that I intend to take up with *Jesus.*


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## Poohbear (May 24, 2005)

Koffie and qtgirl... check out this thread about HYPOCRISY/HYPOCRITES: http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=58447

Hope it helps!!!


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## beverly (May 24, 2005)

Hey Honeyhips -  I'm not sure, but I think you were asking me if people don't agree, do they have to leave. Not at all, questions are allowed, but when the negativity comes into play, repeatedly on this board, in relation to Jesus Christ, or I feel like there is an attempt to bicker, that is not welcomed. It can be done on the Off Topic board. This isn't really a spirituality board like some people tried to pressure me to create, but a Christian *fellowship* board. Bev​


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## LondonDiva (May 27, 2005)

> And the "christianity forum" is only for those who believe in the bible 100%. If you or anyone else does not believe 100% in the bible this forum is not the place for you.


 
Well what about those who are beginning their journey with the Lord but have no FULL understanding of the Bible? I know I sure don't and don't profess to. And as I don't understand it fully then I can't possibly believe in all of it as I haven't grasped the true meaning of it in order to embrace, accept it and believe. 

I don't believe in Christ any less as a result of it though. If that's the case as to who should and shouldn't post on the forum then I'm assuming that most of the women shouldn't be posting here, because there are many a thread and a post asking about certain scriputures and their meaning. They obviously don't understand it all, and if you don't understand then you can't believe in it 100% until you 'get it'. If every woman on this forum can honestly raise their hand and say they believe in everything in the bible, that includes understanding it all too, I'd be very surprised. Just as much as that keeps the people out that want to come in here and put down and contradict everything in the Bible, you're going to get the other side those that want to join and learn more about Christ feeling alienated if they feel themselves that they don't believe 100% in the bible but need the guidance and support to get there, that in itself can be quite damaging to someone who truly wants to learn and be here. Someone can take that 100% rule very literally, and the power of this forum is amazing. The more we are exposed to and learn the word of God we become closer to him. I don't know the bible back to front and inside out, so I can't say I believe in it 100% that would be a blatant lie. I understand the reason and need for forum rules, but in my personal opinion I find that particular rule to be harsh for the reasons I've already stated.


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## Nice (May 28, 2005)

LondonDiva said:
			
		

> *Well what about those who are beginning their journey with the Lord but have no FULL understanding of the Bible? I know I sure don't and don't profess to. And as I don't understand it fully then I can't possibly believe in all of it as I haven't grasped the true meaning of it in order to embrace, accept it and believe. *
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Very good point


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