# Prosperity Sermons



## CurleeDST (Mar 28, 2008)

Do they have a purpose?  Some whose sermons touch a lot on prosperity include Jamal Bryant, TD Jakes and Creflo Dollar.  What do you all think?


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 28, 2008)

Deleted...my post seemed like a waste of time


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## Deszdamona (Mar 30, 2008)

HMM,
INTERESTINGLY WHAT I READ IN THE BIBLE IS MOST OF CHRIST'S FOLLOWERS/DISCIPLES WERE  OF THE CONTRARY---POOR. NOT THAT ANYTHINGS WRONG WITH BEING RICH, BUT I SURELY DON'T BELIEVE THIS NON-SENSE OF POOR MEANING YOU'RE NOT BLESSED BY GOD OR VICE VERSA.  JESUS DID NOT EVEN HAVE A PLACE TO LAY HIS HEAD.  SOME PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE MUCH MONEY BECAUSE GOD KNOWS THEY MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO HANDLE IT "FOR THE LOVE OF MONEY IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL--IMHO.
GOTTA GO TO WORK


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## CurleeDST (Mar 30, 2008)

I just can't get with the sermons that constantly speak of your money is coming..your new car is coming...your big house is coming......and for all those folks who talk about you - their time is coming.

God's word is SOOOO much more than just being blessed with material things.


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## song_of_serenity (Mar 30, 2008)

While I know that God wants us to be happy while we're here and enjoy life and get by without constantly struggling, people fail to realize this is NOT our final home, we're just passing though here. People who preach nothing but prosperity for THIS life are doing a great, GREAT disservice to their flock because our purpose here is to get ready for our FINAL home and to spread the word to get others ready. 
~*Janelle~*


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## CurleeDST (Mar 30, 2008)

AMEN!  I am tired of hearing how we think a Lexus makes us prosperous and is the way we are blessed!  I am blessed being able to type this right now!  God is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooo GREAT.........I want to hear his word....not just about what Creflo and Bryant are preaching.


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## Lissa0821 (Mar 30, 2008)

I am a faithful member of Creflo Dollar's church and yes the Prosperity Sermons are very necessary.  Prosperity is not just about money..... Prospering in God will effect every aspect of your life, your health, your well being, your safety from harm, the peace and well being of your children in addition to your finances.  The prosperity is about the salvation of your entire family.  There is nothing wonderful, glamorous or even holy about being sick, broke and busted when a person has accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.  Most parents want the best for thier children, why wouldn't the Most High God not want the best for his children too.  I think that the scripture 3 John 2 really sums it up...Beloved I wish above all that you prosper and be in health even as your soul prospers.  As a person meditates on the Word of God and really get that word in thier hearts, the prosperity of God is invitable to show up. Why?? because that person begins to think like God and speak like God and God will always honor his word.  

Prosperity in God starts from inside out not outside.  A person is not blessed when the expensive car is in the driveway.  A born again believer is blessed, and as a result an expensive car may or may not be in thier driveway, if that is thier heart's desire.  The bible says he will give us the desires of hearts, and not every one wants expensive things.  

For a person to make a decision to deny existence of the prosperity of God for whatever reason really doesn't have anything to worry about because the prosperity of God won't be a reality in thier lives.  In the kingdom of God, one has to accept by faith first then they will see the manifesation of God's goodness.


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## discobiscuits (Mar 31, 2008)

CurleeDST said:


> Do they have a purpose?  Some whose sermons touch a lot on prosperity include Jamal Bryant, TD Jakes and Creflo Dollar.  *What do you all think?*



*
this type of teaching takes the bible out of context. it goes against god's word. god does prosper his children. but prosperity teachings are contrary to the word.
*


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## buddy78 (Mar 31, 2008)

Lissa0821 said:


> I am a faithful member of Creflo Dollar's church and yes the Prosperity Sermons are very necessary.  Prosperity is not just about money..... Prospering in God will effect every aspect of your life, your health, your well being, your safety from harm, the peace and well being of your children in addition to your finances.  The prosperity is about the salvation of your entire family.  There is nothing wonderful, glamorous or even holy about being sick, broke and busted when a person has accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.  Most parents want the best for thier children, why wouldn't the Most High God not want the best for his children too.  I think that the scripture 3 John 2 really sums it up...Beloved I wish above all that you prosper and be in health even as your soul prospers.  As a person meditates on the Word of God and really get that word in thier hearts, the prosperity of God is invitable to show up. Why?? because that person begins to think like God and speak like God and God will always honor his word.
> 
> Prosperity in God starts from inside out not outside.  A person is not blessed when the expensive car is in the driveway.  A born again believer is blessed, and as a result an expensive car may or may not be in thier driveway, if that is thier heart's desire.  The bible says he will give us the desires of hearts, and not every one wants expensive things.
> 
> For a person to make a decision to deny existence of the prosperity of God for whatever reason really doesn't have anything to worry about because the prosperity of God won't be a reality in thier lives.  In the kingdom of God, one has to accept by faith first then they will see the manifesation of God's goodness.



Very well said!


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## discobiscuits (Mar 31, 2008)

CurleeDST said:


> I just can't get with the sermons that constantly speak of your money is coming..your new car is coming...your big house is coming......and for all those folks who talk about you - their time is coming.
> 
> God's word is SOOOO much more than just being blessed with material things.




the book of ecclesiastes supports your comment.

ETA: this book is a good example of a comment i made in a different thread about believing every word in the bible and cannonization etc. hmmmm..........


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## discobiscuits (Mar 31, 2008)

Lissa0821 said:


> I am a faithful member of Creflo Dollar's church and yes the Prosperity Sermons are very necessary.  Prosperity is not just about money..... Prospering in God will effect every aspect of your life, your health, your well being, your safety from harm, the peace and well being of your children in addition to your finances.  The prosperity is about the salvation of your entire family.  There is nothing wonderful, glamorous or even holy about being sick, broke and busted when a person has accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.  Most parents want the best for thier children, why wouldn't the Most High God not want the best for his children too.  I think that the scripture 3 John 2 really sums it up...Beloved I wish above all that you prosper and be in health even as your soul prospers.  As a person meditates on the Word of God and really get that word in thier hearts, the prosperity of God is invitable to show up. Why?? because that person begins to think like God and speak like God and God will always honor his word.
> 
> Prosperity in God starts from inside out not outside.  A person is not blessed when the expensive car is in the driveway.  A born again believer is blessed, and as a result an expensive car may or may not be in thier driveway, if that is thier heart's desire.  *The bible says he will give us the desires of hearts, and not every one wants expensive things. *
> 
> For a person to make a decision to deny existence of the prosperity of God for whatever reason really doesn't have anything to worry about because the prosperity of God won't be a reality in thier lives.  In the kingdom of God, one has to accept by faith first then they will see the manifesation of God's goodness.




that is true.

however, prosperity teachings (particularly those of Copeland, Dollar, Price, and the like) pander to the LUSTS of people's flesh. i remember when Dollar first came on the scene waaaaaay before he got his own show. i used to watch BVOV "religiously" and he was Copeland's Protégéand guest. around that time was also when i was receiving proper, correct teaching of scriptures pertaining to wealth and prosperity and subsequently stopped watching BVOV and i am completely diametrically opposed to the prosperity teachings of Dollar and his ilk.


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## mrselle (Mar 31, 2008)

I think prosperity sermons have their time and place.  I had been saved for close to two years before I became aware of “prosperity teachings”.  I was flipping channels one day and came across Creflo Dollar.  He had the congregation repeat, “Money cometh to me.”  I came across this sermon at a time when I was in desperate need of some money, so at that time his sermon blessed me.  What I got from the sermon was that God had already supplied my needs, would continue to supply my needs and money would come to me as I needed it.  It’s been 10 years since I heard that sermon and I used to watch Creflo Dollar from time to time, but unfortunately, I’m just not able to get much out of his sermons.  

As with most of these larger ministries and mega churches, I believe that in the beginning the intentions were good, but the money started pouring in and the focus was placed on man and material possessions.  I used to attend a church where the pastor was on fire for God.  There wasn’t a sermon he wouldn’t preach if the Lord said preach it.  If the Lord said tell it he would tell it.  But, money started pouring in and he started using the pulpit as a platform to discuss his opinions instead of telling the people what God said.


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## MrsQueeny (Mar 31, 2008)

I don't have a problem with prosperity sermons in general. I believe God wants us to be rich but not like the world.  With our money, we are to use it to bless and help others.  I only have a problem with those who seek money and things from God and that's it.  God is about more than money.  Some people don't understand there is a process to it all. God is not going to bless you with a million dollars if you can't be a good steward over the $40,000 you get from your salary.  People want the reward but none of the work and that needs to be taught. 

The bible says to seek ye first the kingdom of God.  If we put God first, he will bless us in all areas of our lives. The problem with some prosperity messages is they don't focus on having a strong relationship with Christ first.  Also some people need to know that it may not be in God's will for them to be rich. But just because you aren't a millionaire, doesn't mean you are poor.  God doesn't need to give you a lot of money in order to bless you.  You can make a small amount of money but God can show you favor and you can be completely debt free.  Q


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## Browndilocks (Mar 31, 2008)

I believe that when you are in the will of God and actively trying to live in a manner that is pleasing to Him then prosperity automatically comes.  Monetary and material gain is just one small element in the whole prosperty picture: which can include an array of things, such as protection, health, long life, good marriages, peace of mind, children that stay out of trouble, etc...

Prosperity is also being able to make it through hard times and sustain yourself whenever there is lack in your life. 

While we do need to be reminded of the good things that God is able to supply to us, there is never a need to limit God by constantly harping on one facet of prosperity.  So while I do not have a problem with hearing prosperity sermons, I chose not to engulf myself with ministries that are primarily based on this sole issue.

The Word says that God will supply all of our needs... it doesn't guarantee anything about our above the top wants.


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## Southernbella. (Mar 31, 2008)

Queeny20 said:


> I don't have a problem with prosperity sermons in general. I believe God wants us to be rich but not like the world. With our money, we are to use it to bless and help others. I only have a problem with those who seek money and things from God and that's it. God is about more than money. Some people don't understand there is a process to it all. God is not going to bless you with a million dollars if you can't be a good steward over the $40,000 you get from your salary. People want the reward but none of the work and that needs to be taught.
> 
> The bible says to seek ye first the kingdom of God. If we put God first, he will bless us in all areas of our lives. The problem with some prosperity messages is they don't focus on having a strong relationship with Christ first. Also some people need to know that it may not be in God's will for them to be rich. But just because you aren't a millionaire, doesn't mean you are poor. God doesn't need to give you a lot of money in order to bless you. You can make a small amount of money but God can show you favor and you can be completely debt free. Q


 
Well said, Queeny!

At my old church, for months, the pastor preached that God wants everyone in a house...renting is contrary to God's word...name and claim your house right now!

Here we are a few years later, and the same church is having foreclosure seminars for the members because so many of them are losing those homes.

The question is...where is your focus? Seek ye first...FIRST...means just that. The problem with a lot of prosprerity teaching is that these ministers are teaching that wealth, riches, homes, jobs, and cars are the Kingdom of God. They are teaching that the poor are cursed and the rich are blessed. Money is a measure of how Christian you are. All lies.

To be honest, I think many of the prosperity teachers have been deceived themselves. I don't think they intentionally set out to lie to the flock. I think it happens slowly over time. That's how deception works. You look up one day and realize what you are hearing is contrary to the Word, but by then, you've been in your church 20 years and don't feel right leaving.


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## MrsQueeny (Mar 31, 2008)

lauren450 said:


> Well said, Queeny!
> 
> At my old church, for months, the pastor preached that God wants everyone in a house...renting is contrary to God's word...name and claim your house right now!
> 
> ...



Darn shame I tell you. Some people go to churches looking to get rich and don't focus on their souls. So what if you do become a millionaire. Where are you going to spend eternity?  You are right so many people have lost their focus and get caught up.  My Pastor calls it, falling for the switch.  Instead of praying for a closer relationship, a deeper understanding of the word, a heart to give and bless others, folks are praying for a Bently, a mansion and, money.  All of the money in the world won't be able to pay your way out of hell.  Q


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## tarheelgurl (Mar 31, 2008)

I'm tired of the prosperity sermons. Being prosperous isn't my goal as a Christian........I want to have everlasting life. I really don't like going to a church where the preacher focuses on being rich, having a new car blah blah blah instead of how I have been cleansed of sin.


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## CurleeDST (Mar 31, 2008)

God prospers us in many ways beyond material things.  What I tend to hear mostly about ARE the material things as a manifestation of the way God will bless you.  That is a VERY immature person in Christ who believes they are only blessed when God grants them the things they ask for.  God won't always give us what we say we want - doesn't mean you  aren't blessed.

I think too many can get it confused.  Thank God for the locusts too!  I do not hear prosperity sermons preaching that.  And I do not hear more traditional sermons preaching in order to be blessed or to get your 20 crowns in heaven you have to forsake all worldly things and live bare bones.  I do hear that when prayers go up GOD SHOWS UP!  Not necessarily that blessings come down.  It is to His will not ours.




Lissa0821 said:


> I am a faithful member of Creflo Dollar's church and yes the Prosperity Sermons are very necessary.  Prosperity is not just about money..... Prospering in God will effect every aspect of your life, your health, your well being, your safety from harm, the peace and well being of your children in addition to your finances.  The prosperity is about the salvation of your entire family.  There is nothing wonderful, glamorous or even holy about being sick, broke and busted when a person has accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.  Most parents want the best for thier children, why wouldn't the Most High God not want the best for his children too.  I think that the scripture 3 John 2 really sums it up...Beloved I wish above all that you prosper and be in health even as your soul prospers.  As a person meditates on the Word of God and really get that word in thier hearts, the prosperity of God is invitable to show up. Why?? because that person begins to think like God and speak like God and God will always honor his word.
> 
> Prosperity in God starts from inside out not outside.  A person is not blessed when the expensive car is in the driveway.  A born again believer is blessed, and as a result an expensive car may or may not be in thier driveway, if that is thier heart's desire.  The bible says he will give us the desires of hearts, and not every one wants expensive things.
> 
> For a person to make a decision to deny existence of the prosperity of God for whatever reason really doesn't have anything to worry about because the prosperity of God won't be a reality in thier lives.  In the kingdom of God, one has to accept by faith first then they will see the manifesation of God's goodness.


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## melodee (Apr 1, 2008)

mrselle said:


> I think prosperity sermons have their time and place. I had been saved for close to two years before I became aware of “prosperity teachings”. I was flipping channels one day and came across Creflo Dollar. *He had the congregation repeat, “Money cometh to me.”* I came across this sermon at a time when I was in desperate need of some money, so at that time his sermon blessed me. What I got from the sermon was that God had already supplied my needs, would continue to supply my needs and money would come to me as I needed it. It’s been 10 years since I heard that sermon and I used to watch Creflo Dollar from time to time, but unfortunately, I’m just not able to get much out of his sermons.
> 
> As with most of these larger ministries and mega churches, I believe that in the beginning the intentions were good, but the money started pouring in and the focus was placed on man and material possessions. I used to attend a church where the pastor was on fire for God. There wasn’t a sermon he wouldn’t preach if the Lord said preach it. If the Lord said tell it he would tell it. But, money started pouring in and he started using the pulpit as a platform to discuss his opinions instead of telling the people what God said.


 

I think what you took away from the sermon was what a mature Christian would, and I am glad of that.  Unfortuantely, many are lead astray by sermons such as these.  In today's church, many are intermixing what God's word says with modern new age philosophies.  They believe that they are in fact somewhat of a diety because they are children of God, and they can command what they wish from God. But God is God and we are not.  We can ask for His blessings, but in the end we should know that He will supply us with what He wants us to have.  If we ask for a huge fortune and we receive it--great!  But thinking that we will have it, imagining it, and audibly claiming it does not change the will of God.


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## envybeauty (Apr 1, 2008)

I think it is very callous to call another Christian immature in their spiritual walk as they try to understand and embrace their faith.  

Not everyone is well seasoned.  Not everyone has a high level of understanding when it comes to scripture and teachings.  I learn something new every time I pick up my bible, listen to ANY pastor, or fellowship with a friend.  I am still new (as I see fit to describe) my walk and I would not appreciate anyone labeling me as immature because I did not take away from the message what they walked away with.

While I did not hear the message in question, I do listen to various pastors (including Jakes, Dollar, Meyers, White, etc.).  Not once did I ever hear anyone mention praying for a Bentley, Lexus or million dollars. People are listening to these messages because they are down trodden and going through very personal matters during these difficult times.  Often personal battles are fought against financial hardship.  Not everyone is financially secure.  I am not saying that people should be praying for money (and I highly doubt people are praying for $20s on their doorsteps) but people are praying for financial relief.  AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.  When people are robbing Peter to pay Paul or living paycheck to paycheck, financial stress is very real and affects people mentally and physically EVERYDAY.   I doubt that people who are barely able to make their credit card payments, dealing with the rising cost of living (skyrocketing gas prices, increasing fees, increasing amount of bills, less jobs, lower incomes, higher taxes, etc.) are praying for a Lexus on their doorstep.  There are grown women with children of their own who are having to move back in with their own parents because they can no longer afford their homes -- no longer able to live on their own.  Parents who have to move in with their kids because they cannot afford to live on Social Security alone.  Churches are packed with thousands of people who are in dire stress...often due to financial problems.  Yet, all some want to believe is that the thousands who listen to Dollar, Jakes, etc. are praying for a Mercedes.


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## CurleeDST (Apr 1, 2008)

I do not perceive it as being callous I perceive it as being immature in Christ when the only way we can recognize our blessings is when we receive material things as a manifestation if His love for us.

If I pray for something and God does not grant it to me am I not still His child?  Am I not still blessed?  Does that mean He is not God?   NO .. it means it isn't His will!

I must acquiesce to that and remain humble!  All of these material things can be TAKEN AWAY in the blink of an EYE.....are we NOT still the CHILD OF GOD and truly blessed?

Let's not get it confused...and for someone to think otherwise is immature in my eyes like saying the child's blessing at age 50.  No advancement, progress or growth in Christ.  I know He expects more of us.



nvybeauty said:


> I think it is very callous to call another Christian immature in their spiritual walk as they try to understand and embrace their faith.
> 
> Not everyone is well seasoned.  Not everyone has a high level of understanding when it comes to scripture and teachings.  I learn something new every time I pick up my bible, listen to ANY pastor, or fellowship with a friend.  I am still new (as I see fit to describe) my walk and I would not appreciate anyone labeling me as immature because I did not take away from the message what they walked away with.
> 
> While I did not hear the message in question, I do listen to various pastors (including Jakes, Dollar, Meyers, White, etc.).  Not once did I ever hear anyone mention praying for a Bentley, Lexus or million dollars. People are listening to these messages because they are down trodden and going through very personal matters during these difficult times.  Often personal battles are fought against financial hardship.  Not everyone is financially secure.  I am not saying that people should be praying for money (and I highly doubt people are praying for $20s on their doorsteps) but people are praying for financial relief.  AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.  When people are robbing Peter to pay Paul or living paycheck to paycheck, financial stress is very real and affects people mentally and physically EVERYDAY.   I doubt that people who are barely able to make their credit card payments, dealing with the rising cost of living (skyrocketing gas prices, increasing fees, increasing amount of bills, less jobs, lower incomes, higher taxes, etc.) are praying for a Lexus on their doorstep.  There are grown women with children of their own who are having to move back in with their own parents because they can no longer afford their homes -- no longer able to live on their own.  Parents who have to move in with their kids because they cannot afford to live on Social Security alone.  Churches are packed with thousands of people who are in dire stress...often due to financial problems.  Yet, all some want to believe is that the thousands who listen to Dollar, Jakes, etc. are praying for a Mercedes.


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## melodee (Apr 1, 2008)

nvy, were you referring to me, dear?  

I said that mrselle _was_ thinking like a mature Christian.  There is a such thing as spiritual maturity.  I stand by my statement that some are led in the wrong direction, and I've seen it happen to some of my friends.

I learn something new each time I read the bible as well.  Any Christian should be able to attest to this.  But the more we learn, the more we grow.  This is not to say that newer believers are any less valuable, but there can be advice given by those who are seasoned--it happens here all the time and I am grateful for the advice given to me.

I was not saying that you cannot pray for prosperity.  God wants us to live life in abundance.  And God wants to supply our needs.  When we are in need, we should turn to our Almighty father for help in this matter, by ALL means.

Girl, I know that people who are going through struggles aren't necessarily praying for status cars and mansions.  But I was referring to those who are not being wise with what God has provided them with.  The ones getting an expensive home without the means to pay because " God will give them the money to stay in the house" when their current house was just fine and met their expectations.    I'm talking of the ones who are looking at high status items as their gauge on how much God loves them.  

I don't think we were on the same page.  I'm not simply stating that *all *that listen to Creflo are led astray.  But there are those who become so caught up in the message, that they don't know that they've already prospered. Please don't think that I am telling folks not to want their daily financial needs met.  

In love,
Mel


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## CurleeDST (Apr 1, 2008)

I am witnessing firsthand a couple I admired who walked closely with Christ.  They got into their last home in between jobs, without the level of scrutiny as most and God led them to where they were.  They decided to move into a much larger home not because God led them there but for status.  They admitted it - their last home did not show well enough for them and the people they were planning to entertain (high society of Baltimore).

Well, they have gone THROUGH it to get into the house, trying to get out of the deal, ending up having to take the house and not being able to successfully sell the last house - so they have 2 major home mortgates on the books.  It hasn't been easy and while I believe God will bring them through this - I believe it won't be without a lesson first b/c I do not believe this was His plan.  Their last home was gorgeous.  Their new home is AWESOME but she is not happy - b/c it wasn't the way they wanted it.

That is a perfect example of people believing in prosperity teachings but that may not be God's will and if it isn't doesn't mean God does not love you and you are not blessed!

I am sick of prosperity teachings b/c those who are not mature enough to discern the difference can easily get it confused.


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## PaperClip (Apr 2, 2008)

CurleeDST said:


> I am witnessing firsthand a couple I admired who walked closely with Christ. They got into their last home in between jobs, without the level of scrutiny as most and God led them to where they were. They decided to move into a much larger home not because God led them there but for status. They admitted it - their last home did not show well enough for them and the people they were planning to entertain (high society of Baltimore).
> 
> Well, they have gone THROUGH it to get into the house, trying to get out of the deal, ending up having to take the house and not being able to successfully sell the last house - so they have 2 major home mortgates on the books. It hasn't been easy and while I believe God will bring them through this - I believe it won't be without a lesson first b/c I do not believe this was His plan. Their last home was gorgeous. Their new home is AWESOME but she is not happy - b/c it wasn't the way they wanted it.
> 
> ...


 
What happened to personal accountability? Personal responsibility? Common sense? The unadulterated, pure Word of God advocates seeking the Lord first in all things. It's like you said: "because God led them there but for status."

It is simply OUT OF ORDER to place blame on the Word of God. And if there are pastors who are misleading folk and misrepresenting the Word of God, they will have to answer to God for that. And at the same time, the Lord is sovereign enough to cover His believers and grant mercy, even in a situation like this.

A sisterfriend of mine is in a similar situation. She bought a house at age 26. This house has brought her more sorrow than blessing. Two years later, as she reflects on the situation, she realizes that, while the teaching at our church is to be homeowners versus renters, she bought a house on that word WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE (for example, the seller did the appraisal versus getting an objective appraiser; she simply didn't know otherwise). She was not conscious of what it takes to be a homeowner. She is believing to get out of the house favorably (may have to file bankruptcy) so she can start over. Thankfully, it's just her. She says she will be a homeowner again to the glory of God AND with knowledge.

The Word of God should not take the blame for people's poor choices.


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## CurleeDST (Apr 2, 2008)

What I am explaining in the prosperity sermons I hear or have listened to, they speak of all the materialistic things you  will get by being faithful but they do not balance it with the things you must go through in order to be faithful.  The tests, trials and tribulations.

My friends did not consult with God first when they made this move and they know this and understand why they are going through what they are going through.  I know God will bring them through it but not before they learn this lesson.

I do not say constantly preach gloom and doom but let's understand God will bring you through it and it is an immature Christian who thinks the only way God displays His love is with material rewards like money, big houses, helicopters, the Lexus in the driveway, etc.  

He is so much more awesome than that.


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## PaperClip (Apr 2, 2008)

I see what nvybeauty is saying re. the perception and/or estimation of financial troubles as a sign of immaturity. I think it would be better to call it DISOBEDIENCE or FOOLISHNESS...or even a time of TESTING.... and these things can happen to ANY BELIEVER, regardless of the length of time they have been a Christian.

My sisterfriend that I mentioned earlier has been a Christian since she was 14 years old. She bought the house at 26. I would not call what she did foolishness at all. I would call it an ACT OF FAITH. She stepped out believing the Lord. It's not a sin to buy a house. It's not a sin to want more/better. The sin comes in when those status symbols and fleshly desires distract us from the things of the Lord.

I say again, for those pastors who are misrepresenting the Word of God, they will have to answer to God for their DISOBEDIENCE and misleading the people.

How about this: NOTHING happens on this earth without the LORD's PERMISSION. Consider Job. The devil had to go to the Lord to inquire about Job. (Job 1). The Lord is omniscient.

And the Lord knows when we're gonna do something stupid/foolish...like buy things we may not be able to afford. And when we realize the error of our ways and repent, the Lord sees that. The Lord's mercy is EVERLASTING.


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## tarheelgurl (Apr 2, 2008)

I feel like the properity preachers basically preach what they think people want to hear. They talk about things that are easy to listen for some people like how you can receive financial blessings, have all your bills paid and get a new car if you follow his teachings. 

This seems to be the foundation of those sermons. Now, speaking as someone with a chronic health problem with no hope of any cure (I have multiple sclerosis) that is not what I need to hear. Everyone else, as well as I, need to hear about how we are going to get to the other side. How we can order our steps to lead us to the kingdom. 

IMHO, this is the basics of Christianity that is suited for EVERYONE. Getting financial blessings and being properous may not be as important to one person as it is to another so why focus on that? Why not preach and teach the basic Christian ideals that will apply to everyone equally? Which in my opinion is having everlasting life. 

Preachers that focus on being prosperous in their teachings, IMHO, are cheating the people that follow them.


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## Shimmie (Apr 2, 2008)

CurleeDST said:


> Do they have a purpose? Some whose sermons touch a lot on prosperity include Jamal Bryant, TD Jakes and Creflo Dollar. What do you all think?


The promises of prosperity are true and scriptual.  The world itsself has exercised them and profited from God's principles on increase for centuries and they always will.   Look at Luke 16, regarding the unjust servant.  

This man about to lose his job, went about and gained favor from his employer's clients, and though it was an underhanded act for him to do so (as he was looking out for himself), Jesus remarked that the children of the world are smarter than the children of light.  Meaning that the world KNOWS the system and they are working it and profiting from it.  However, God's children are not and therefore prosper not.

Here's the problem:  While it is NOT a sin to prosper, it has been taken out of context where many preachers have gotten caught up in the 'blessings' and not remaining focused on the Kingdom of God.

Why keep asking God for something that He has already given you?  Here's the thing.  When one's rent, mortgage, car payment or whatever is due, one does not hesitate to put in a prayer request for it.  Why go through that when God has already made it availble to us to have our needs met BEYOND what we could ever ask or think.  

There's a fine line here....why keep asking for what you already have been promised by God.  If the world is getting blessed financially, how much more the children of God, so that the needs of the ministries are met, as well as the 'children' of God within, and to continue to spread God's message throughout the world.

The reason the Church and God's children are so 'broke' is because of the 'rejection' of God's promises to us.  HAD 'we', the Church accepted the promises of prosperity in the beginning, we would not be a servant to the world.  

For it's the world who dictates our airwaves...there's more sin and garbage in the media than God's word.  In comparison, how many wholesome shows, movies, music and radio programs are full of the devil?  99%.  Why is that?   They have the money, to control it.  And we are the ones 'funding' them to do so.  

For every nickel and dime that the Church pays for their airwaves, utilities, phone service, groceries, family vacations, air travel, cars, clothing, restaurants, even a stick of gum, etc., goes straight into the bank rolls of those in the world to continue their increase, to support THEIR causes and choices, and compiles our decrease.   Yet, we the Church still struggles to make ends meet.   For we do not have money control!  We do not have the prosperity in our hands to overcome the world.  

Yes............we do have prayer and Bibles and songs and hymms, and halleiluias; AND they are powerful...indeed!  Yet we do not control the world's system...they still control us.  Why?  Because they ran with what we rejected...God's kingdom principles for prospering in this world financially. 

Prosperity is not a sin.  Rejecting it is....


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## PaperClip (Apr 2, 2008)

tarheelgurl said:


> I feel like the properity preachers basically preach what they think people want to hear. They talk about things that are easy to listen for some people like how you can receive financial blessings, have all your bills paid and get a new car if you follow his teachings.
> 
> *This seems to be the foundation of those sermons. Now, speaking as someone with a chronic health problem with no hope of any cure (I have multiple sclerosis) that is not what I need to hear.* Everyone else, as well as I, need to hear about how we are going to get to the other side. How we can order our steps to lead us to the kingdom.
> 
> ...


 
Dear tarheelgurl,

I hear what you're saying and I see why you're saying what you're saying. In advance, please forgive me if my following words come off as offensive to you but I must declare that Jesus Christ has already borne/carried away every sickness and disease. Our hope as Christians is not in man finding a cure, but our hope is in Jesus Christ. *Part of the prosperity message is to live in divine healing, divine health, and divine life.* I encourage you to hope in the Lord Jesus Christ read, meditate, and memorize these scriptures to build up your faith that health and healing can be yours in Jesus Christ.

Then your light shall break forth like the dawn, and healing shall spring up quickly. Isaiah 58:8

Who his own self bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we, being dead to sin, should live unto righteousness, by whose stripes we were healed. I Peter 2:24

He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions. Psalm 107:20

Daughter your faith has made you well, go in peace, And be Healed of your disease. Mark 5:34

Whatever you ask for in Prayer with faith you will receive. Matthew 21:22

And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Eqyptians: for I am the Lord that healeth thee. Exdous 15:26

Exodus 23:25 Worship the LORD your God, and his blessing will be on your food and water. I will take away sickness from among you.

Psalm 103:3 Praise the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits--who forgives all your sins and heals all your diseases.

My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings. Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart. For they are life unto those that find them and health to all their flesh.
Proverbs 4:20-22 

*But he was wounded for our transgressions he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him;and with his stripes we are healed. Isaiah 53:5
*
*Heal me, O Lord and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved; for thou art my praise. Jeremiah 17:14*

*ACTS 10:38 "how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him." *

*1 PETER 2:24 (Christ) Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree,
that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness -- by whose stripes you were healed.*

More healing scriptures here: http://www.alighthouse.com/healingscripturesII.htm
http://www.alighthouse.com/christisthecure.htm
http://www.alighthouse.com/healingscriptures3.htm​


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## PaperClip (Apr 2, 2008)

tarheelgurl said:


> I feel like the properity preachers basically preach what they think people want to hear. They talk about things that are easy to listen for some people like how you can receive financial blessings, have all your bills paid and get a new car if you follow his teachings.
> 
> This seems to be the foundation of those sermons. Now, speaking as someone with a chronic health problem with no hope of any cure (I have multiple sclerosis) that is not what I need to hear. Everyone else, as well as I, need to hear about how we are going to get to the other side. How we can order our steps to lead us to the kingdom.
> 
> ...




http://www.alighthouse.com/healing2.htm

If you desire to pray for the power to receive healing or if you just want to release your faith for health and wholeness
You can receive right now Jesus is where you are right this moment

Jesus is the healer; Your part is to say and do. So you say these things out loud. You say; Jesus is my healer He bore my sicknesses and my diseases and pain I expect to receive now. Pray this prayer in faith and mean it with your whole heart. Accept it and believe it!

*F**ather, the word of God, that I have heard and confess
is the power of God unto my salvation
I confess that Jesus Christ is Lord 
over my life, spirit, soul and body
I receive the power of God to make me whole,
sound, deliver, saved and healed now
I act on the word of God and receive His power

**S**ickness, disease and pain
I resist you in the name of Jesus
You are not the will of God
I enforce the word of God on you
I will not tolerate you in my life
Leave my presence,
I will never allow you back
I have been healed and made sound 
Jesus made me whole
My days of sickness and disease are over

**I **am the saved, I am the healed and the power of
sickness has been forever broken over my life
Jesus bore my sickness
Jesus bore my weakness
Jesus bore my pain and I am free
No sickness, no sin, no fear, no evil addiction 
shall lord it over me any longer
I have been redeemed from the curse
and I receive the blessing
I proclaim my freedom in Jesus name

**T**he gospel is the power of God to me, unto my salvation
I receive the gospel, I act on the gospel and I am 
made whole in the name of the lord Jesus Christ.
**Amen!*​*
**Prayer by Gloria Copeland
Kenneth Copeland Ministries
Directly licensed for internet public performance
alighthouse.com*​*
*


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## CurleeDST (Apr 2, 2008)

What is the point of a church requesting a copy of your W-2?

http://www.cnn.com/2007/LIVING/wayoflife/12/27/prosperity.preachers.ap/index.html


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## PaperClip (Apr 2, 2008)

CurleeDST said:


> What is the point of a church requesting a copy of your W-2?
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2007/LIVING/wayoflife/12/27/prosperity.preachers.ap/index.html


 
The operative word here is REQUEST.

And unless there's Bible to back up said request, keep it moving.


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## CurleeDST (Apr 2, 2008)

I understand the operative word - my question is what is the purpose of requesting it?



RelaxerRehab said:


> The operative word here is REQUEST.
> 
> And unless there's Bible to back up said request, keep it moving.


----------



## PaperClip (Apr 2, 2008)

CurleeDST said:


> I understand the operative word - my question is what is the purpose of requesting it?


 
That's a question for the folk who are requesting it. I believe I heard one explanation for this is to show folk who are new to tithing about what to tithe. Also, it is a way for a church to get a sense of the income brackets of their parishoners.

Please note that I am in NO WAY justifying such requests. I am merely speculating.

It isn't illegal to request such a thing. Sure, it's questionable, but not illegal.


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## Southernbella. (Apr 2, 2008)

CurleeDST said:


> I understand the operative word - my question is what is the purpose of requesting it?


 
I think it's for budgeting purposes.


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## CurleeDST (Apr 2, 2008)

It actually is a fairly rhetorical question and if no one understands the purpose then that is cool.  Thought I would ask because I find it extremely suspect of a church to make that type of request (new in Christ or not).

I am not implying it is illegal.  I AM stating it is suspect and none of their business!  God knows the information and also knows our hearts so why does a church need it?  



RelaxerRehab said:


> That's a question for the folk who are requesting it. I believe I heard one explanation for this is to show folk who are new to tithing about what to tithe. Also, it is a way for a church to get a sense of the income brackets of their parishoners.
> 
> Please note that I am in NO WAY justifying such requests. I am merely speculating.
> 
> It isn't illegal to request such a thing. Sure, it's questionable, but not illegal.


----------



## tarheelgurl (Apr 2, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Dear tarheelgurl,
> 
> I hear what you're saying and I see why you're saying what you're saying. In advance, please forgive me if my following words come off as offensive to you but I must declare that Jesus Christ has already borne/carried away every sickness and disease.* Our hope as Christians is not in man finding a cure, but our hope is in Jesus Christ*. *Part of the prosperity message is to live in divine healing, divine health, and divine life.* I encourage you to hope in the Lord Jesus Christ read, meditate, and memorize these scriptures to build up your faith that health and healing can be yours in Jesus Christ.
> 
> ...


 
I am not offended RR and I will say that I don't put any cures for my disease in the hands of man. My problem isn't with the word itself but how it is delivered. There are people sitting in congregations every Sunday that are sick, disabled, whore mongers, liars, adulterers and theives. They need to know how, why and who will save them from their sins or deliver them from their pain. 

Being told every Sunday to walk out on faith and get that house or car doesn't do anything for the sick or the sinners. There isn't anything in that message that we (or anyone else) can take away that will help us understand that everything is ordered and we will be alright. To some, a devine life is one with lots of money, a big house and namebrand car. To others, it could mean a happy marriage, kids and safe home. And to people like me, it simply means waking up with the ability to walk every day. 

So, I get tired of those preachers teaching to the down trodden the things they think they want to hear instead of arming them with the tools they need to have peace in their lives.


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## tarheelgurl (Apr 2, 2008)

lauren450 said:


> I think it's for budgeting purposes.


 
What type of budgeting? If a church needs to know how much its members make to establish its budget, then IMHO it isn't properly serving those people.


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## PaperClip (Apr 2, 2008)

CurleeDST said:


> It actually is a fairly rhetorical question and if no one understands the purpose then that is cool. Thought I would ask because I find it extremely suspect of a church to make that type of request (new in Christ or not).
> 
> I am not implying it is illegal. I AM stating it is suspect and none of their business! God knows the information and also knows our hearts so why does a church need it?


 
It's not even about what God knows, per se.... It's about HUMAN BEINGS being accountable and responsible for their choices and whether they sought the ALL-KNOWING GOD before they made a move. The Lord God Almighty is a GENTLEMAN. He is not going to INVADE where He is not INVITED.

For a lot of folk, it's easier to point the finger at the pastor (right or wrong) versus looking in the mirror and discerning where they made the wrong turn. Again, the Lord's mercy is everlasting.

Yes, there should be a level of trust between the pastor and the people. At least enough trust in that if a pastor asks for a W-2, you ought to be able to ASK the pastor DIRECTLY the purpose of such a request. If the response makes one sincerely uncomfortable, then maybe one should not sit under that pastor. 

The prosperity message has gotten perverted. What this means is that there is an AUTHENTIC MESSAGE for prosperity in the Bible. The key for ANY BELIEVER is to immerse him/herself in that Bible to find out directly what the Word of God says concerning prosperity on this side of heaven.

We (globally) can nitpick about W-2 requests and all that but I say sincerely that these things are DISTRACTIONS to bigger issues in the Body of Christ. I add that the ENTIRE BODY is about to come under judgement and the situations with these six pastors are only the TIP of the iceberg.

Further, we would ALL DO WELL to make sure we are in alignment with the Lord before we point anywhere else. I'm not saying to ignore mess. We are to pray for our governmental and spiritual leaders. 

The Lord has been leading me to read the book of Revelation and I KNOW it's the Lord because I wasn't TRYING (and still ain't, kinda!) to read that book.... I'm up to Chapter 10 where the last three trumpets are sounded and the three terrors are released. I pray to the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY that I am not here for all that....

So a dinky request for a W-2 is not on my top 10 list.


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## CurleeDST (Apr 2, 2008)

Au contraire it most definitely IS about what God knows as we do not exalt or answer to our pastors but to God.  Your response below appears to be making sweeping assumptions and perhaps you are incorporating previous discussions about this in this discussion, who knows.

It is only nit picking when one doesn't have a solid, bible-based rationale behind a particular action.  We all are sinners who by the grace of God have been washed in His blood.  My pastor is THE FIRST to say don't worship me or follow me!  I am here giving you the Word as I am commanded to do.  Don't follow a preacher, church or pastor.  Follow GOD!

Prosperity teachings....however one wants to spin it should not sound the same sermon to sermon.  God has blessed me with the power of discernment and I discern there is another spirit at work here and God has nothing to do with it.  I am thankful I can see it.



RelaxerRehab said:


> It's not even about what God knows, per se.... It's about HUMAN BEINGS being accountable and responsible for their choices and whether they sought the ALL-KNOWING GOD before they made a move. The Lord God Almighty is a GENTLEMAN. He is not going to INVADE where He is not INVITED.
> 
> For a lot of folk, it's easier to point the finger at the pastor (right or wrong) versus looking in the mirror and discerning where they made the wrong turn. Again, the Lord's mercy is everlasting.
> 
> ...


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## envybeauty (Apr 2, 2008)

I see it differently.  I see a lot of these posts as saying if the person does not get X, then that person does not believe God loves them.  As if that person is a child who believes if the child does not get a piece of candy, then they are not loved.  As if the material blessings are extras that people are praying for.

I am not talking about childish things -- as in things that are of no consequence to the person's survival.  I am talking about people who are requesting things that they need to survive in this world.  As in the ability to put food on their table, the ability to have a means of transportation to get to a job to earn a living, the ability to not have to worry about their children's safety in a crime ridden neighborhood.  God provides all our NEEDS (and He will even give us the desires of our hearts if we follow him) but first and foremost He provides all our NEEDS.  People need a home. They need food. They need a safe environment.  Thousands of people everyday are praying for God to fulfill their basic needs.  Why are people then throwing it out there as if the person who is worrying about paying this month's rent is praying for a mansion? As if the person who has to beg friends/coworkers for a ride to work everyday is praying for a Bentley? 

The testimonies that people provide on here every week reflect this -- that when times were rough, they were praying to GOd for relief. When they didn't know where they were going to get money to feed their kids, they prayed to God to help them.  They were not praying for a million dollars on their doorstep.  When they didn't know when their lights were going to finally be cut off, they prayed that God would help them find a way.  I dare say anyone prayed for luxury items when they were struggling.  Yet, people act like people are listening to prosperity sermons just a prayin and a hopin for things way beyond their means, when most are simply praying for their means. 

I have listened to those sermons for many years and I really tuned in to them when I was struggling.  People who turned me on to different preachers did so when I was at my lowest. Friends ordered tapes/books of these preachers and sent them to me to HELP me along the way.  I have traveled out of my way to hear different ones speak in person.  Not once did I come across a preacher say pray for a Bently, Lexus, etc. Not once did I ever believe that the sista crying beside me was crying because she didn't get her mansion on the hill. Not once did I ever hear someone get up with a testimony about $20s landing on their doorstep ..... I heard people testify about being cured, about going through their illnesses, about them almost being thrown out of their homes.....

I hear it differently.



CurleeDST said:


> I do not perceive it as being callous I perceive it as being immature in Christ when the only way we can recognize our blessings is when we receive material things as a manifestation if His love for us.
> 
> If I pray for something and God does not grant it to me am I not still His child?  Am I not still blessed?  Does that mean He is not God?   NO .. it means it isn't His will!
> 
> ...


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## tarheelgurl (Apr 2, 2008)

CurleeDST said:


> Au contraire it most definitely IS about what God knows as we do not exalt or answer to our pastors but to God. Your response below appears to be making sweeping assumptions and perhaps you are incorporating previous discussions about this in this discussion, who knows.
> 
> It is only nit picking when one doesn't have a solid, bible-based rationale behind a particular action. We all are sinners who by the grace of God have been washed in His blood. My pastor is THE FIRST to say don't worship me or follow me! I am here giving you the Word as I am commanded to do. Don't follow a preacher, church or pastor. Follow GOD!
> 
> Prosperity teachings....however one wants to spin it should not sound the same sermon to sermon. God has blessed me with the power of discernment and I discern there is another spirit at work here and God has nothing to do with it. I am thankful I can see it.


 
Good post....


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## PaperClip (Apr 2, 2008)

CurleeDST said:


> Au contraire it most definitely IS about what God knows as we do not exalt or answer to our pastors but to God.
> 
> Well, as I said earlier, God is omniscient. He knows EVERYTHING. He knows what we're going to do before we do it. He also gave us FREE WILL, so He wil not FORCE us.
> 
> ...


 
And here's where you miss it: it's all about what you got and how you can see and discern instead of using your God-given gifts and talents to HELP OTHERS. Instead, it seems that it's easier to call other folk immature who might have gotten caught up, manipulated, abused, seduced, DISOBEDIENT....

When you discern another spirit at work, you're supposed to PRAY.... and should the Lord instruct you to speak on that thing, then that's what you do....


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## envybeauty (Apr 2, 2008)

You were not the only one to use that term so my response applied to anyone who used it.  

I know that some people are just that naiive but the overwhelming majority.......... I don't believe that to be true. It is because I believe that so FEW act the way you are thinking, that I pay them no mind.  The people I know who pack the churches, convention centers, etc. are dealing with real issues and they are praying (some moved to the point of tears) over illness, addictions, financial HARDSHIPS, the breakdown of familial relationships, etc.  Not because they bought a BMW today and cannot afford next month's payment.  Even for those who have X and cannot pay, it is often due to a loss of job, a reduction in hours, clients, orders, etc. where less is now coming into the home, etc. so not only are they at risk of losing X, but they now have to make other changes (keep Jr. home to go to community college instead of sending him away to the prestigious school where he was accepted and where he would have more job/internship opportunities, better professors, better classrooms, etc. and pull missy out of ballet, tap, or even tutoring because they can no longer afford it).  People who are making change after change in their homes while wondering how long they can go on the lower income before the rug is completely pulled out from underneath them.

I guess I know only because I have been there and know the story behind so many people's stories.




melodee said:


> nvy, were you referring to me, dear?
> 
> I said that mrselle _was_ thinking like a mature Christian.  There is a such thing as spiritual maturity.  I stand by my statement that some are led in the wrong direction, and I've seen it happen to some of my friends.
> 
> ...


----------



## tarheelgurl (Apr 2, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> And here's where you miss it: it's all about what you got and how you can see and discern instead of using your God-given gifts and talents to HELP OTHERS. Instead, it seems that it's easier to call other folk immature who might have gotten caught up, *manipulated, abused, seduced,* DISOBEDIENT....
> 
> When you discern another spirit at work, you're supposed to PRAY.... and should the Lord instruct you to speak on that thing, then that's what you do....


 
That's a good point. A lot of people are led by preachers into directions that do not neccesarily lead to Christ and his teaching. From my own experiences, I have seen pastors in churches mangle the words in the Bible to fit their own agenda.....usually to get more money out of the congregation.


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## envybeauty (Apr 2, 2008)

*To whom do you attribute them buying this new house?  Which of the prosperity pastors do they follow? * 




CurleeDST said:


> I am witnessing firsthand a couple I admired who walked closely with Christ.  They got into their last home in between jobs, without the level of scrutiny as most and God led them to where they were.  They decided to move into a much larger home not because God led them there but for status.  They admitted it - their last home did not show well enough for them and the people they were planning to entertain (high society of Baltimore).
> 
> Well, they have gone THROUGH it to get into the house, trying to get out of the deal, ending up having to take the house and not being able to successfully sell the last house - so they have 2 major home mortgates on the books.  It hasn't been easy and while I believe God will bring them through this - I believe it won't be without a lesson first b/c I do not believe this was His plan.  Their last home was gorgeous.  Their new home is AWESOME but she is not happy - b/c it wasn't the way they wanted it.
> 
> ...


----------



## Southernbella. (Apr 2, 2008)

tarheelgurl said:


> What type of budgeting? If a church needs to know how much its members make to establish its budget, then IMHO it isn't properly serving those people.


 
I agree. I think you see this happen in churches where they want to do a lot of building and expansion. They say God gave them a vision for where the church is going to go, but when the finances don't pan out, they have to start looking at the budget and figuring out how to pay all those bills.


----------



## Aveena (Apr 2, 2008)

Shimmie said:


> The promises of prosperity are true and scriptual. The world itsself has exercised them and profited from God's principles on increase for centuries and they always will. Look at Luke 16, regarding the unjust servant.
> 
> This man about to lose his job, went about and gained favor from his employer's clients, and though it was an underhanded act for him to do so (as he was looking out for himself), Jesus remarked that the children of the world are smarter than the children of light. Meaning that the world KNOWS the system and they are working it and profiting from it. However, God's children are not and therefore prosper not.
> 
> ...


 
Yes Maam!!! I learned this as a child and KNOW it to be true....      amen

and this is why I don't watch TV so that my mind does not get filled with the "things" that others say I should have.... with all the advertisizing and subtle hints thrown in as a lifestyle I should be living.. I live the lifestyle God has for me to live ... yes I've made mistakes and learned lessons but all with the joy in knowing that I will be ok and settle into what God has for me.


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## PaperClip (Apr 2, 2008)

tarheelgurl said:


> That's a good point. A lot of people are led by preachers into directions that do not neccesarily lead to Christ and his teaching. From my own experiences, I have seen pastors in churches mangle the words in the Bible to fit their own agenda.....usually to get more money out of the congregation.


 
Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

(same scripture reference) "If anyone tries to flag you down, calling out, 'Here's the Messiah!' or points, 'There he is!' don't fall for it. Fake Messiahs and lying preachers are going to pop up everywhere. Their impressive credentials and dazzling performances will pull the wool over the eyes of even those who ought to know better. But I've given you fair warning." (The Message)

Recognize that for there to be FALSE CHRISTS and PROPHETS, there has to be a TRUE CHRIST, a TRUE PROPHET, A TRUE KING, the LORD JESUS CHRIST!


----------



## Southernbella. (Apr 2, 2008)

CurleeDST said:


> Au contraire it most definitely IS about what God knows as we do not exalt or answer to our pastors but to God. Your response below appears to be making sweeping assumptions and perhaps you are incorporating previous discussions about this in this discussion, who knows.
> 
> It is only nit picking when one doesn't have a solid, bible-based rationale behind a particular action. We all are sinners who by the grace of God have been washed in His blood. My pastor is THE FIRST to say don't worship me or follow me! I am here giving you the Word as I am commanded to do. Don't follow a preacher, church or pastor. Follow GOD!
> 
> Prosperity teachings....however one wants to spin it should not sound the same sermon to sermon. God has blessed me with the power of discernment and I discern there is another spirit at work here and God has nothing to do with it. I am thankful I can see it.


 
 I guess you (general) can call discernment nit-picking if you (general) want, but the truth is, when God shows you something, and you KNOW it's God, then you have to make a decision. There are always going to be people who don't see it the same. God showed me something a year before he showed my mother, and she argued me up and down about it until I left it alone. God showed her a year later. She called me out of the blue and said that she felt someone had lifted a veil from her eyes.

I know there are people who saw it years before I did. Everyone is at a different place in their walk, so I think it's logical that people are going to receive this thread in many different ways.


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## envybeauty (Apr 2, 2008)

I do not believe everyone has to go through a trial to prosper.  That said, I do not believe God wills it for everyone to go through a trial.

The easiest example is child bearing.   A lot of married women desire to have a child.  Some have a child around the time they plan to have one. A friend of mine got married, she and her husband then desired to wait until they were around 30 before having any children.  Two months after she turned 30 (and five years after being married) she got pregnant with her first.  Another couple tried for many many years.  Through they could not have one it had been that long.  Right before they were about to look into fertility treatments she got pregnant. Another waited many many years. Went through expensive fertility treatments. After finishing the treatments (that did not lead to pregnancy), she ended up pregnant with her first child in her early 40s without any medical assistance.

Do some go through a trial before getting pregnant? Yes.  Does one have to go through a trial before having a child? No. Do some women bred like rabbits? Yes. Do they ever consult with God before getting pregnant? No. 






CurleeDST said:


> What I am explaining in the prosperity sermons I hear or have listened to, they speak of all the materialistic things you  will get by being faithful but they do not balance it with the things you must go through in order to be faithful.  The tests, trials and tribulations.
> 
> My friends did not consult with God first when they made this move and they know this and understand why they are going through what they are going through.  I know God will bring them through it but not before they learn this lesson.
> 
> ...


----------



## envybeauty (Apr 2, 2008)

CurleeDST said:


> What is the point of a church requesting a copy of your W-2?
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2007/LIVING/wayoflife/12/27/prosperity.preachers.ap/index.html





CurleeDST said:


> I understand the operative word - my question is what is the purpose of requesting it?





CurleeDST said:


> It actually is a fairly rhetorical question and if no one understands the purpose then that is cool.  Thought I would ask because I find it extremely suspect of a church to make that type of request (new in Christ or not).
> 
> I am not implying it is illegal.  I AM stating it is suspect and none of their business!  God knows the information and also knows our hearts so why does a church need it?




why bother asking if you really did not want others to respond.  If you find it suspect, say so at the outset.  i agree -- it is suspect and unnecessary for a general request (as opposed to a group/individual request to help people understand how to tithe as pointed out by RR).


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## Southernbella. (Apr 2, 2008)

nvybeauty said:


> I see it differently. I see a lot of these posts as saying if the person does not get X, then that person does not believe God loves them. As if that person is a child who believes if the child does not get a piece of candy, then they are not loved. As if the material blessings are extras that people are praying for.
> 
> I am not talking about childish things -- as in things that are of no consequence to the person's survival.* I am talking about people who are requesting things that they need to survive in this world. As in the ability to put food on their table, the ability to have a means of transportation to get to a job to earn a living, the ability to not have to worry about their children's safety in a crime ridden neighborhood. God provides all our NEEDS (and He will even give us the desires of our hearts if we follow him) but first and foremost He provides all our NEEDS. People need a home. They need food. They need a safe environment. Thousands of people everyday are praying for God to fulfill their basic needs. Why are people then throwing it out there as if the person who is worrying about paying this month's rent is praying for a mansion? As if the person who has to beg friends/coworkers for a ride to work everyday is praying for a Bentley?*
> 
> ...


 
I think you have a good point. 

Ok, there are working poor people who do everything they can and just can't get ahead. What good does it do them to hear every Sunday that "God wants you to have that house! He wants you to have that car! He wants you to be a millionaire! Just sow that seed! Name it and claim it!"

That does NOTHING. I sat under that kind of thing for years and still saw people stay living check to check and struggling.

To be fair, we had financial seminars and things like that, but again, people who don't have any extra can't afford to invest in this or sow into that.

I don't know...I understand why the black church in particular talks about gaining wealth because the black church has always been about empowerment in all areas.

Frankly, I don't think the poor should be paying tithes because that's not Biblical. Maybe starting there, we can start helping people get out of that hole. Instead of using the money of the poor to finance church expansion, we need to be helping the DIRECTLY. Maybe instead of buying the pastor a Bentley, we could buy housing for ten single mothers. Maybe instead of putting marble floors in the church, we could put five undecucated men through college.


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## PaperClip (Apr 2, 2008)

nvybeauty said:


> I do not believe everyone has to go through a trial to prosper. That said, I do not believe God wills it for everyone to go through a trial.


 
1 Peter 1:6-8: (Amplified Bible)
[You should] be exceedingly glad on this account, though now for a little while you may be distressed by trials and suffer temptations, So that [the genuineness] of your faith may be tested, [your faith] which is infinitely more precious than the perishable gold which is tested and purified by fire. [This proving of your faith is intended] to redound to [your] praise and glory and honor when Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) is revealed. Without having seen Him, you love Him; though you do not [even] now see Him, you believe in Him and exult and thrill with inexpressible and glorious (triumphant, heavenly) joy.

1 Peter 4:12-13

Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
 Tests and trials are part of the faith walk. Tests and trials have manifold purposes: to build our faith, to manifest God's glory. That's where TESTIMONIES come forth... victory through a TEST. We overcome by the Blood of the Lamb and the word of our TESTIMONY (Revelation 12:11). Others are encouraged by our testimonies because they testify that if they went through it, so can I.


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## CurleeDST (Apr 2, 2008)

I see what you are saying.  My example IS exemplifying those who believe if they do not get what they want, when they want it, they are not blessed or haven't been blessed.  And they do exist and are out there.  And the sermons I hear of do not speak specifically to a Bentley but they MOST CERTAINLY speak of getting a new car, home, job, etc.  Tune into Jamal Bryant this Sunday - I can almost quote his script.




nvybeauty said:


> I see it differently.  I see a lot of these posts as saying if the person does not get X, then that person does not believe God loves them.  As if that person is a child who believes if the child does not get a piece of candy, then they are not loved.  As if the material blessings are extras that people are praying for.
> 
> I am not talking about childish things -- as in things that are of no consequence to the person's survival.  I am talking about people who are requesting things that they need to survive in this world.  As in the ability to put food on their table, the ability to have a means of transportation to get to a job to earn a living, the ability to not have to worry about their children's safety in a crime ridden neighborhood.  God provides all our NEEDS (and He will even give us the desires of our hearts if we follow him) but first and foremost He provides all our NEEDS.  People need a home. They need food. They need a safe environment.  Thousands of people everyday are praying for God to fulfill their basic needs.  Why are people then throwing it out there as if the person who is worrying about paying this month's rent is praying for a mansion? As if the person who has to beg friends/coworkers for a ride to work everyday is praying for a Bentley?
> 
> ...


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## CurleeDST (Apr 2, 2008)

I do think it makes sense to have ministries which empower and teach people how to manage their finances, manage their marriage, manage their lives.

The sermons on this subject I have watched specifically speak to all of the things people will get but do not speak to what people will have to do in order to realize them.  The types of trials they may be put through.  I think that does people a tremendous disservice.




lauren450 said:


> I think you have a good point.
> 
> Ok, there are working poor people who do everything they can and just can't get ahead. What good does it do them to hear every Sunday that "God wants you to have that house! He wants you to have that car! He wants you to be a millionaire! Just sow that seed! Name it and claim it!"
> 
> ...


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## CurleeDST (Apr 2, 2008)

Also, do people have opinions about churches who may not provide a loan to a church member if that member has not tithed to the church or will pull the member's tithe statement before agreeing to marry them?

A friend of mine experienced this in TN and she was highly offended when the church came back and told her mom they would not lend her money based on her tithe statement.  

And ladies, I know discussions about religion are very personal so feel free to share or not share what you feel comfortable with and let's try not to get defensive, snarky or impatient with each other with this discussion (I know that goes without saying but thought I would state it anyway).  My purpose for bringing this up is not to invoke negativity but to have a healthy discussion about it because it is something that has become more visible to me and thought it would be interesting to discuss.


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## envybeauty (Apr 2, 2008)

So what of the ones who did not struggle to get their job, their home, their child, etc.?  What happened to them? Why not trial for them if it is necessary as part of the faith walk? 

There exist today those who struggle for x, and those who did not struggle for the same x.



RelaxerRehab said:


> 1 Peter 1:6-8: (Amplified Bible)
> [You should] be exceedingly glad on this account, though now for a little while you may be distressed by trials and suffer temptations, So that [the genuineness] of your faith may be tested, [your faith] which is infinitely more precious than the perishable gold which is tested and purified by fire. [This proving of your faith is intended] to redound to [your] praise and glory and honor when Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) is revealed. Without having seen Him, you love Him; though you do not [even] now see Him, you believe in Him and exult and thrill with inexpressible and glorious (triumphant, heavenly) joy.
> 
> 1 Peter 4:12-13
> ...


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## Southernbella. (Apr 2, 2008)

CurleeDST said:


> Also, do people have opinions about churches who may not provide a loan to a church member if that member has not tithed to the church or will pull the member's tithe statement before agreeing to marry them?
> 
> A friend of mine experienced this in TN and she was highly offended when the church came back and told her mom they would not lend her money based on her tithe statement.
> 
> .


 
It's well withing a church's right to do that, but it's not biblical.


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## PaperClip (Apr 2, 2008)

CurleeDST said:


> Also, do people have opinions about churches who may not provide a loan to a church member if that member has not tithed to the church or will pull the member's tithe statement before agreeing to marry them?
> 
> A friend of mine experienced this in TN and she was highly offended when the church came back and told her mom they would not lend her money based on her tithe statement.
> 
> And ladies, I know discussions about religion are very personal so feel free to share or not share what you feel comfortable with and let's try not to get defensive, snarky or impatient with each other with this discussion (I know that goes without saying but thought I would state it anyway). My purpose for bringing this up is not to invoke negativity but to have a healthy discussion about it because it is something that has become more visible to me and thought it would be interesting to discuss.


 
The church should not LEND to anyone.

Hopefully a church is seeking the Lord for direction about such matters on a case-by-case basis and seek to help. But the members should not be sacrificed for someone who is not a member, or, particularly if they belong to another church.

And with regard to the point about being defensive, snarky, or impatient: one disadvantage of the internet is that it is a ONE-DIMENSIONAL communication channel. There does not exist the combination of verbal tone and non-verbals (body language). Sometimes my passion gets misinterpreted as condescension or malice. I sincerely say here that it is NEITHER of those. Yes, I can use strong words, but I don't call anybody out of their name or demean their character. When a conversation and courageous conversation happens from a place of love and not malice, we're helping one another.

The Bible says "Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend. (Proverbs 27:17). In other words, through our (collective) dialogue, we learn and grow stronger in the faith and we grow stronger to discern and combat contrary spirits.


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## envybeauty (Apr 2, 2008)

I see nothing wrong with that.  If a church is making a LOAN (and not an outright gift), they should not throw judgment aside. Why give someone a loan if it shows that they cannot pay it back.  If she was tithing 10%, and her 10% amounted to show her as possibly earning only $25,000 a year, why loan her $25,000 that she will not be able to pay back.

I wouldn't cast judgment on the church that did that as we don't know all the facts about her request.





CurleeDST said:


> Also, do people have opinions about churches who may not provide a loan to a church member if that member has not tithed to the church or will pull the member's tithe statement before agreeing to marry them?
> 
> * A friend of mine experienced this in TN and she was highly offended when the church came back and told her mom they would not lend her money based on her tithe statement.
> *
> And ladies, I know discussions about religion are very personal so feel free to share or not share what you feel comfortable with and let's try not to get defensive, snarky or impatient with each other with this discussion (I know that goes without saying but thought I would state it anyway).  My purpose for bringing this up is not to invoke negativity but to have a healthy discussion about it because it is something that has become more visible to me and thought it would be interesting to discuss.


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## CurleeDST (Apr 2, 2008)

Hi RelaxerRehab - I was not speaking to anyone specifically when I put the statement out there about getting defensive, snarky, etc.  I was anticipating it from anyone participating in this discussion and wante to put it out there, that the reason for bringing this up was not to act as a "troll" or to stir up stuff but to have sincere and healthy dialogue. 

I know religion/faith/spirituality stirs up passion in believers and likely so - it shapes our paradigm, lifestyle and day-to-day activities.  My statement was my attempt at preempting this discussion taking a turn for the worst which is not what this is or should be about.

So no, it was not aimed at you so no need to explain anything....let's keep it going.  I think this discussion is good.



QUOTE=RelaxerRehab;4152439]The church should not LEND to anyone.

Hopefully a church is seeking the Lord for direction about such matters on a case-by-case basis and seek to help. But the members should not be sacrificed for someone who is not a member, or, particularly if they belong to another church.

And with regard to the point about being defensive, snarky, or impatient: one disadvantage of the internet is that it is a ONE-DIMENSIONAL communication channel. There does not exist the combination of verbal tone and non-verbals (body language). Sometimes my passion gets misinterpreted as condescension or malice. I sincerely say here that it is NEITHER of those. Yes, I can use strong words, but I don't call anybody out of their name or demean their character. When a conversation and courageous conversation happens from a place of love and not malice, we're helping one another.

The Bible says "Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend. (Proverbs 27:17). In other words, through our (collective) dialogue, we learn and grow stronger in the faith and we grow stronger to discern and combat contrary spirits.[/QUOTE]


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## PaperClip (Apr 2, 2008)

nvybeauty said:


> So what of the ones who did not struggle to get their job, their home, their child, etc.? What happened to them? Why not trial for them if it is necessary as part of the faith walk?
> 
> There exist today those who struggle for x, and those who did not struggle for the same x.


 
Who's to say who struggled or not? More than one person has said to me that school does not seem to be a struggle to me! Huh? They are not sitting at the laptop next to me as I agonize over writing a paper, or studying for a test. 

Who's to say who is struggling or not. More than one person has said to me that it seems like I'm content being a single Christian, a virgin at that, with no sexual struggles?  (Don't make me cuss!) They don't know how I lay in my bed alone sweating and crying all night from the loneliness for a mate. For the lack of companionship. The want of a touch, a hug, a caress, a kiss, from my husband. 

Who is anyone to measure the struggle of another person's situation? *NO ONE!!!!!!!!*

That's why when we go through our trials, we are to be THANKFUL IN the trial, not FOR the trial. That's why you (general) can't talk to everybody about everything.

The grass isn't always greener on the other side.... There's a cost. I'm telling you what I know from DIRECT EXPERIENCE.


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## Southernbella. (Apr 2, 2008)

Oh, for a loan, I think they do have to use discernment. Maybe they looked at her tithing as a bill that she isn't paying regularly. I'm not sure why a church is lending money, though. Do they have a credit union?

Benevolence is something different, though.


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## PaperClip (Apr 2, 2008)

CurleeDST said:


> Hi RelaxerRehab - I was not speaking to anyone specifically when I put the statement out there about getting defensive, snarky, etc. I was anticipating it from anyone participating in this discussion and wante to put it out there, that the reason for bringing this up was not to act as a "troll" or to stir up stuff but to have sincere and healthy dialogue.
> 
> I know religion/faith/spirituality stirs up passion in believers and likely so - it shapes our paradigm, lifestyle and day-to-day activities. My statement was my attempt at preempting this discussion taking a turn for the worst which is not what this is or should be about.
> 
> ...


[/quote]

I appreciate you saying this. And at the same time, I felt it right after I posted that....


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## envybeauty (Apr 2, 2008)

A friend of mine got laid off from her job.  She was struggling to find a new job. Struggling to get past the first interview, struggling to get interviews to begin with, with some companies.  Struggling with her search for a new apartment. Struggling in the new apartment with  her new neighbors. She was struggling. By her own admission.  In her struggle, I said to her when something is meant for you, you will not have to struggle to get it. I stand by that (for reasons below).  So, fast forward to about a year later.  She wanted to move to a new city. She was going home to visit her family.  A few days before her trip, she called an old classmate. During that conversation, the person told her that her company was hiring. Friend sends classmate resume to pass along. Classmate secured an interview.  Friend interviewed on Monday, got the job offer on Wednesday.  FROM THERE ON OUT, SHE HAD NO STRUGGLE!!!

She was able to get out of her 2 year lease that she signed only a month or two prior with no problems from the landlord.  Her old job that she had said she would stay on six months, let her out of that commitment with problems and her old boss even gave her the contact info for his colleagues in the new city.  She found a new apartment during a weekend trip with no problems. Even bought a new car with great terms in one day of looking with no problems.

My own friend, who knows what it is like to struggle through a situation, said to me that she herself was amazed at how relatively EASY everything has been so far. She agreed with what I told her priorto.

I stand by my belief that not everyone is meant to struggle through all situations in life.  In some areas of my life, I too can testify that I have had no struggles with the paricular line of blessing I have received.  Especially when I had no knowledge beforehand as to what I was getting into.  In other areas, I am struggling. Even after reading book after book, talking to person after person, and praying about it regularly. Struggles. I know a struggle.



RelaxerRehab said:


> Who's to say who struggled or not? More than one person has said to me that school does not seem to be a struggle to me! Huh? They are not sitting at the laptop next to me as I agonize over writing a paper, or studying for a test.
> 
> Who's to say who is struggling or not. More than one person has said to me that it seems like I'm content being a single Christian, a virgin at that, with no sexual struggles?  (Don't make me cuss!) They don't know how I lay in my bed alone sweating and crying all night from the loneliness for a mate. For the lack of companionship. The want of a touch, a hug, a caress, a kiss, from my husband.
> 
> ...


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## Southernbella. (Apr 2, 2008)

nvybeauty said:


> A friend of mine got laid off from her job. She was struggling to find a new job. Struggling to get past the first interview, struggling to get interviews to begin with, with some companies. Struggling with her search for a new apartment. Struggling in the new apartment with her new neighbors. She was struggling. By her own admission. In her struggle, I said to her when something is meant for you, you will not have to struggle to get it. I stand by that (for reasons below). So, fast forward to about a year later. She wanted to move to a new city. She was going home to visit her family. A few days before her trip, she called an old classmate. During that conversation, the person told her that her company was hiring. Friend sends classmate resume to pass along. Classmate secured an interview. Friend interviewed on Monday, got the job offer on Wednesday. FROM THERE ON OUT, SHE HAD NO STRUGGLE!!!
> 
> She was able to get out of her 2 year lease that she signed only a month or two prior with no problems from the landlord. Her old job that she had said she would stay on six months, let her out of that commitment with problems and her old boss even gave her the contact info for his colleagues in the new city. She found a new apartment during a weekend trip with no problems. Even bought a new car with great terms in one day of looking with no problems.
> 
> ...


 
This post speaks to a lot of the issues I've had in my own walk. I used to be so confused (my own confusion, not because of anyone else).

I didn't understand...if God wants you to have something, then you won't have to struggle for it. Therefore, if I find myself struggling and working too hard, then maybe it wasn't meant for me to have it. 

I gave up on quite a few things in life because of this mentality. I've since changed my way of thinking on that.

I now think there are plenty of things that God wants you to have, or that God doesn't mind you having, but the path isn't always laid out for you directly. I also think I used to obsess over consulting God on every.single.detail. 

I truly believe that God has given me the tools I need to have whatever I desire, as long as it doesn't interfere with my walk or cause me to put that thing before God in my heart.

Think about it...do you (general) consult with God about what you will eat for lunch? Whether to stop for gas now or later? Whether to wear your hair up or down? What toothpaste to use? These things seem inconsequential to us humans, but we like to consult with God about the "big" things. Who of us can really say what God considers a big thing?

God has given us wisdom, discernment, and the Holy Sprit. Sometimes the path will be clear, and sometimes you will have to struggle and work hard. It doesn't mean that God was any more or less involved with the process.

This, for me, ties into the prosperity stuff. I think many times we pray and ask God for things that He has already given us the tools to get ourselves. We pray and wait, pray and wait, and while we're praying and waiting for our "breakthrough", our neighbor has gone out and gotten a part time job to save up and buy the house he wants.

While some people are bringing their bills to a debt cancelation service and waiting for God to show up, others are calling their credit card companies to get lower rates so that they can pay their debt off.


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## PinkPebbles (Apr 2, 2008)

lauren450 said:


> I guess you (general) can call discernment nit-picking if you (general) want, but the truth is, when God shows you something, and you KNOW it's God, then you have to make a decision. *There are always going to be people who don't see it the same. God showed me something a year before he showed my mother, and she argued me up and down about it until I left it alone. God showed her a year later.* She called me out of the blue and said that she felt someone had lifted a veil from her eyes.
> 
> *I know there are people who saw it years before I did. Everyone is at a different place in their walk,* so I think it's logical that people are going to receive this thread in many different ways.


 
lauren450- very well said! There were some things that I could not see that others were trying to tell me in the past; but in God's perfect timing the veil was lifted off of my eyes.  
By the way- I believe we went to the same church in GA...so I can relate to a lot of things you mentioned in this thread. I realize that people did not experience all of the same things so their perspective will be different.  
I witnessed first hand people praying, demanding and declaring that they upgrade their benz because they are a child of God. When the pastor was telling everyone that he doesn't want his congregation renting anymore, I was around 22 years old. They even had a sign posted in the church reminding us to be 100% homeowners. I was not seasoned in the word and at that particular time I was about to do something foolish. I was about to purchase a home that I could not afford at the time. By the grace of God I purchased a home a couple of years later that was in my budget. Unfortunately, a friend of mine purchased a home and she had to file bankruptcy to get out of it. 
A lot of things may sound bizarre to many and if I didn't experience this type of teaching first hand, i would think it's ludicrous too. People should have a mind of their own but in most cases that's not always the case. I was not raised in a church, my parents were but they no longer attended. I did not have a foundation so it's possible to be caught up and led astray. But God is merciful, I have a heart after Him and He continuously keeps me in the palm of His hands.


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## envybeauty (Apr 2, 2008)

The homeowners thing....I'm glad y'all brought that up.

There are several black neighborhoods across the country going through some changes.   The changes I am referring to involves people (not Black) seeing Black neighborhoods as cheap places to invest and attract newer communities. So they are kicking Black people out to move in big retail establishments, build new apartments/homes, etc.

At my old church, the preacher talked EVERY Sunday about tithing 10% and saving 10% for yourself and your home.  Every Sunday. He wanted people to set aside 20% of their income for those two purposes: tithing and saving. 

At one service, he commented about it.  He said, in other neighborhoods, like in Harlem, Black folks are being kicked out. Simply because they do not own where they live. Without property rights, people have no say so about their rights to stay or go.  Black folks in Harlem up in arms about the gentrification process and about Blacks not being able to stay in Harlem much longer (many anyway).  It is true.  Harlem is changing RAPIDLY.  Before, it was rare to see a white person anywhere near 125th Street. Now, they are as high north as 145th street and moving even farther north.  

The other pastor commented that what is going on in Harlem cannot happen in his neighborhood simply because he has been preaching to his congregation that they need to look into home ownership.  Most the black people surrounding his church own their homes or other property that they rent out.  Even that church indirectly owns several developments (senior's home, apartments, school, storefronts, etc.).

I see his point.

The church I attend is always telling the congragation about a mortgage that it wants to pay off...that if they could pay it off early, they would save a lot (almost .5 million) in interest alone that could be put towards church services, etc.  I'm all for that. 

But what about the majority of people there who don't own a home. Why not encourage them to also buy their own property so that they have something and aer not throwing away their money month after month. Many in that church do not know the value of home ownership because for GENERATIONS their families have always rented (never owned) their homes. So they have nothing in their old age (but yet another rent payment) or even to pass on to their kids.  Many of them will have to find somewhere else to live because gentrification will affect them as well.

Should I address this with my church?


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## PinkPebbles (Apr 2, 2008)

nvybeauty said:


> The homeowners thing....I'm glad y'all brought that up.
> 
> There are several black neighborhoods across the country going through some changes. The changes I am referring to involves people (not Black) seeing Black neighborhoods as cheap places to invest and attract newer communities. So they are kicking Black people out to move in big retail establishments, build new apartments/homes, etc.
> 
> ...


 
I see where you are coming from...I believe it's great to want to own a home and it definitely comes with great benefits. That's why I own. But my point is that there is a time and a season for everything. Everyone is not ready to purchase a home during the same time frame and that should be perfectly okay.  So it's important to teach people to save and educate them before they go into something blindly and regret it. That's the key...and you pointed that out " "*He talked EVERY Sunday about tithing 10% and saving 10% for yourself and your home*.


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## Southernbella. (Apr 2, 2008)

nvybeauty said:


> The homeowners thing....I'm glad y'all brought that up.
> 
> There are several black neighborhoods across the country going through some changes. The changes I am referring to involves people (not Black) seeing Black neighborhoods as cheap places to invest and attract newer communities. So they are kicking Black people out to move in big retail establishments, build new apartments/homes, etc.
> 
> ...


 
Good post, but here's one potential issue...the working poor don't have disposable income to save. Why can't the church allow these people to forgo tithes and save that money? After all, in the Bible, some of the tithe was used FOR the poor...they weren't paying into it. 

Another issue...some churches (some, not all) got into debt buying million dollar buildings. Now they want the congregation to take even more of their own money to help pay off the mortgage. It's like...we can't really have it both ways. Either we're going to use all our money for bigger churches and more church programs, or we're going to use our money and invest in our homes and neighborhoods. Why should the people shoulder the burden of the board who decided to get the huge building with the 100k utility bill, marble floors, and million dollar sound system?

PinkPebbles, we probably did go to the same church, and I agree with everything you posted. I thank God that there are some people who didn't hear the type of stuff we've heard. Did you see that map on the AJC of the foreclosures in metro Atlanta? The two areas with the most foreclosures were in the two areas with the biggest black megachurches in the state.  Something is wrong, and I'm not placing all the blame on the churches. We have to do better.


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## PinkPebbles (Apr 2, 2008)

lauren450 said:


> Good post, but here's one potential issue...the working poor don't have disposable income to save. Why can't the church allow these people to forgo tithes and save that money? After all, in the Bible, some of the tithe was used FOR the poor...they weren't paying into it.
> 
> Another issue...some churches (some, not all) got into debt buying million dollar buildings. Now they want the congregation to take even more of their own money to help pay off the mortgage. It's like...we can't really have it both ways. Either we're going to use all our money for bigger churches and more church programs, or we're going to use our money and invest in our homes and neighborhoods. Why should the people shoulder the burden of the board who decided to get the huge building with the 100k utility bill, marble floors, and million dollar sound system?
> 
> ...


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## WhipEffectz1 (Apr 2, 2008)

lauren450 said:


> Good post, but here's one potential issue...the working poor don't have disposable income to save. Why can't the church allow these people to forgo tithes and save that money? After all, in the Bible, some of the tithe was used FOR the poor...they weren't paying into it.
> 
> Another issue...some churches (some, not all) got into debt buying million dollar buildings. Now they want the congregation to take even more of their own money to help pay off the mortgage. It's like...we can't really have it both ways. Either we're going to use all our money for bigger churches and more church programs, or we're going to use our money and invest in our homes and neighborhoods. Why should the people shoulder the burden of the board who decided to get the huge building with the 100k utility bill, marble floors, and million dollar sound system?
> 
> PinkPebbles, we probably did go to the same church, and I agree with everything you posted. I thank God that there are some people who didn't hear the type of stuff we've heard. Did you see that map on the AJC of the foreclosures in metro Atlanta? The two areas with the most foreclosures were in the two areas with the biggest black megachurches in the state.  Something is wrong, and I'm not placing all the blame on the churches. We have to do better.



I'm feeling this whole post!!!!!


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## envybeauty (Apr 2, 2008)

Good points.  The church should have thought twice about taking out that mortgage and not everyone has enough to set aside 20% every paycheck.




PinkPebbles said:


> I see where you are coming from...I believe it's great to want to own a home and it definitely comes with great benefits. That's why I own. But my point is that there is a time and a season for everything. Everyone is not ready to purchase a home during the same time frame and that should be perfectly okay.  So it's important to teach people to save and educate them before they go into something blindly and regret it. That's the key...and you pointed that out " "*He talked EVERY Sunday about tithing 10% and saving 10% for yourself and your home*.





lauren450 said:


> Good post, but here's one potential issue...the working poor don't have disposable income to save. Why can't the church allow these people to forgo tithes and save that money? After all, in the Bible, some of the tithe was used FOR the poor...they weren't paying into it.
> 
> Another issue...some churches (some, not all) got into debt buying million dollar buildings. Now they want the congregation to take even more of their own money to help pay off the mortgage. It's like...we can't really have it both ways. Either we're going to use all our money for bigger churches and more church programs, or we're going to use our money and invest in our homes and neighborhoods. Why should the people shoulder the burden of the board who decided to get the huge building with the 100k utility bill, marble floors, and million dollar sound system?
> 
> PinkPebbles, we probably did go to the same church, and I agree with everything you posted. I thank God that there are some people who didn't hear the type of stuff we've heard. Did you see that map on the AJC of the foreclosures in metro Atlanta? The two areas with the most foreclosures were in the two areas with the biggest black megachurches in the state.  Something is wrong, and I'm not placing all the blame on the churches. We have to do better.


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## PaperClip (Apr 2, 2008)

nvybeauty said:


> A friend of mine got laid off from her job. She was struggling to find a new job. Struggling to get past the first interview, struggling to get interviews to begin with, with some companies. Struggling with her search for a new apartment. Struggling in the new apartment with her new neighbors. She was struggling. By her own admission. In her struggle, I said to her when something is meant for you, you will not have to struggle to get it. I stand by that (for reasons below). So, fast forward to about a year later. She wanted to move to a new city. She was going home to visit her family. A few days before her trip, she called an old classmate. During that conversation, the person told her that her company was hiring. Friend sends classmate resume to pass along. Classmate secured an interview. Friend interviewed on Monday, got the job offer on Wednesday. FROM THERE ON OUT, SHE HAD NO STRUGGLE!!!
> 
> She was able to get out of her 2 year lease that she signed only a month or two prior with no problems from the landlord. Her old job that she had said she would stay on six months, let her out of that commitment with problems and her old boss even gave her the contact info for his colleagues in the new city. She found a new apartment during a weekend trip with no problems. Even bought a new car with great terms in one day of looking with no problems.
> 
> ...


 
Agree with the bolded statement.

At the same time, as you said by your friend's own admission, the perception of struggle is in the eye of the beholder.

There are several biblical examples where people struggled to obtain the promise, had to struggle to make a decision, to resist temptation and sin. Some struggles are self-inflicted. Some struggles are divinely purposed.

For me, the measure of something being "meant" for me (from the Lord) is not (necessarily) measured by the struggle/process, but in the outcome/result, based on this scripture:

Proverbs 10:22: "The blessing of the LORD, it maketh rich, and he addeth no sorrow with it."

Same verse in Amplified: "22The blessing of the Lord--it makes [truly] rich, and He adds no sorrow with it [neither does toiling increase it]."

This is in ANY SITUATION, an apartment, car, relationship, job, church, etc. It ought to be more good than bad.


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## CurleeDST (Apr 2, 2008)

I remember when my church was saving to build our new building dissenters picketed outside the church EVERY SUNDAY for a good YEAR straight, rain, sun or shine.  Asking our Reverand where was the "STEAL" for the new church.

In the end the picketers went away b/c ground was broken and the church went up and that is where we have main service every Sunday.  Our pastor is the FIRST to tell you to not follow him and follow GOD.

Yes there are ministries helping to educate the congregation of finances, marriage, womanhood, manhood, etc.  and I think all of that is great!

I simply can not get with those teachings constantly focused on getting "things" without also balancing it with the sacrifices that will accompany the gains.  I can't get with constant sermons talking about folks "talking about you".  Who cares what man thinks in the end it is was God thinks.  So why even preach on it?  Doesn't make sense to me.


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## PaperClip (Apr 2, 2008)

CurleeDST said:


> *I remember when my church was saving to build our new building dissenters picketed outside the church EVERY SUNDAY for a good YEAR straight, rain, sun or shine. Asking our Reverand where was the "STEAL" for the new church.*
> 
> In the end the picketers went away b/c ground was broken and the church went up and that is where we have main service every Sunday. Our pastor is the FIRST to tell you to not follow him and follow GOD.
> 
> ...


 
Are you serious? That would NEVER happen at my church. First of all, we joke that our deacons are LOOKING for a (righteous) fight and two, those "dissenters" were OUT OF ORDER and operating in DISOBEDIENCE.

The bible says if you have an ought with your brother (including the pastor), you're supposed to go to that person and get it worked out PRIVATELY. If they don't hear you, you go back with another party and if they don't hear you a second time, you take it to the church body. I know there's scripture for this....

The Lord is not pleased by the usurping of authority. God is a god of order.


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## envybeauty (Apr 2, 2008)

I agree with that -- more good than bad has to take place with anything.

That was how I knew my church was meant for me.  I have not had any struggles with it thus far --- no struggle finding parking (and there is little to no parking near this church). No struggle in being late due to traffic. No struggle with meeting with pastors.  I look for signs like that -- am I fighting some sort of battle to get through with what I want and if I am, maybe that thing is not for me. 

My own little quirk.



RelaxerRehab said:


> Proverbs 10:22: "The blessing of the LORD, it maketh rich, and he addeth no sorrow with it."
> 
> Same verse in Amplified: "22The blessing of the Lord--it makes [truly] rich, and He adds no sorrow with it [neither does toiling increase it]."
> 
> This is in ANY SITUATION, an apartment, car, relationship, job, church, etc. It ought to be more good than bad.


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## PaperClip (Apr 2, 2008)

nvybeauty said:


> I agree with that -- more good than bad has to take place with anything.
> 
> That was how I knew my church was meant for me. I have not had any struggles with it thus far --- no struggle finding parking (and there is little to no parking near this church). No struggle in being late due to traffic. No struggle with meeting with pastors. I look for signs like that -- am I fighting some sort of battle to get through with what I want and if I am, maybe that thing is not for me.
> 
> My own little quirk.


 
That's good.... but allow me to ask this question: how would you process/deal with it if struggles did pop up in any of these areas? Would you consider it a trial, a test of your faith, or a "sign" that it is time for you to leave that church?

Remember, Job's life was peachy keen until the enemy went to the Lord God and ASKED if he could affect Job. The Lord allowed it, except not to touch his soul.... Job didn't have full understanding as to why such things were happening to him...and his friends weren't much help.... 

Dr. MLK said it well here: "The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.


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## envybeauty (Apr 2, 2008)

I find that a struggle is more to have me move on to the next place of comfort.  Comfort does not last forever and sometimes you need to feel the spring in your back to tell you that it is time to get a new seat -- a new position in life.  I would simply move on.  




RelaxerRehab said:


> That's good.... but allow me to ask this question: how would you process/deal with it if struggles did pop up in any of these areas? Would you consider it a trial, a test of your faith, or a "sign" that it is time for you to leave that church?
> 
> Remember, Job's life was peachy keen until the enemy went to the Lord God and ASKED if he could affect Job. The Lord allowed it, except not to touch his soul.... Job didn't have full understanding as to why such things were happening to him...and his friends weren't much help....
> 
> Dr. MLK said it well here: "The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.


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## CurleeDST (Apr 2, 2008)

Blessed are those who believe without seeing. - John 20:29 NLT 

Asking for proof before you believe something can stop you from receiving what God wants you to accept based on His Word. Thomas watched Jesus die. That's hard evidence to refute. As a result Thomas decided to believe only what he could see and verify. When your faith's been shaken, you're inclined to cling to things that are practical, absolute and tangible. Jesus graciously gave Thomas the proof he needed, and said, "You believe because you have seen...Blessed are those who believe without seeing." The fact remains, however, that if Thomas hadn't been permitted to see and touch Jesus it wouldn't have changed the reality of the resurrection one iota. Thomas' problem wasn't lack of faith, it was misdirected faith. He trusted only what he could process on a human level. Sound familiar? 

By contrast, when Mary Magdalene met Jesus at the tomb He told her, "Don't touch Me...But go find My brothers and tell them" (Jn 20:17 TLB). Mary once washed Jesus' feet with her tears and dried them with her hair; touch was important to her. And touching Jesus at that moment would have confirmed what she'd seen and heard. This time, however, Jesus asked her to trust His Word and not His flesh; to be willing to testify without a touch. 

Sometimes we feel "the touch of God" calming us, strengthening us and reassuring us that He is still in control. The truth is, His touch has often kept us from giving up or going over the edge. But sometimes He asks us to trust Him without the crutch of sensory perception. That's faith at its highest level.


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## PaperClip (Apr 2, 2008)

nvybeauty said:


> I find that a struggle is more to have me move on to the next place of comfort. Comfort does not last forever and sometimes you need to feel the spring in your back to tell you that it is time to get a new seat -- a new position in life. I would simply move on.


 
A struggle could also be a deception from the enemy to move you out of the place from where you are and where you are supposed to be....


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## envybeauty (Apr 2, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> A struggle could also be a deception from the enemy to move you out of the place from where you are and where you are supposed to be....



2 Kings 7: 3-9  

The story about the four lepers.  Perfect example of how when you are in a place of discomfort, you should move.  I like how the timing was staged.  The lepers left at twilight (verse 5) and simultaneously the Syrians left at twilight (verse 7).  When I am moving, someone else is moving at the same time so that when I get there, I will find the place I am supposed to be.


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## PaperClip (Apr 2, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> A struggle could also be a deception from the enemy to move you out of the place from where you are and where you are supposed to be....


 


nvybeauty said:


> 2 Kings 7: 3-9
> 
> The story about the four lepers. Perfect example of how when you are in a place of discomfort, you should move. I like how the timing was staged. The lepers left at twilight (verse 5) and simultaneously the Syrians left at twilight (verse 7). When I am moving, someone else is moving at the same time so that when I get there, I will find the place I am supposed to be.


 
Again, a struggle could be a trap to get you away from a place that is blessing you. The enemy does not want us to be happy, empowered, comfortable (although comfort can be a dangerous thing at times as well).

*Jacob wrestles with the angel. (Genesis 32). Jacob didn't leave or escape the "struggle". He knew there was a blessing on the other side of it and he was willing to apply his faith and stick it out.
*

 24And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 
 25And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 
 26And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 
 27And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 
 28And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.  29And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 

*The prophet Elijah runs away at the "struggle" of dealing with Jezebel (1 Kings 19).* 

Verse 9 "He (Elijah) came to a cave, and stayed there. The word of the Lord came to him, and said, "What are you doing here, Elijah?" 10 Elijah said, "I have been very careful to serve the Lord, the God of All. For the people of Israel have turned away from Your agreement. They have torn down Your altars and have killed with the sword the men who speak for You. Only I am left, and they want to kill me." 

15 The Lord said to him, "Go, return on your way to the desert of Damascus. When you get there, set apart Hazael to be the king of Syria. 16 Set apart Nimshi's son Jehu to be the king of Israel. And set apart Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abel-meholah to speak for God in your place. 17 Jehu will kill the one who gets away from the sword of Hazael. Elisha will kill the one who gets away from the sword of Jehu.

Verse 18 "But I will leave 7,000 in Israel whose knees have not bowed down in front of Baal and whose mouths have not kissed him." 

Following verses show Elijah finding his successor, Elisha. Elijah ran away from his struggle and the result was that his "job" was given to someone else.

Don't let a struggle (or the threat of one) scare you out of your blessing.


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## discobiscuits (Apr 4, 2008)

CurleeDST said:


> Blessed are those who believe without seeing. - John 20:29 NLT
> 
> Asking for proof before you believe something can stop you from receiving what God wants you to accept based on His Word. Thomas watched Jesus die. That's hard evidence to refute. As a result Thomas decided to believe only what he could see and verify. When your faith's been shaken, you're inclined to cling to things that are practical, absolute and tangible. Jesus graciously gave Thomas the proof he needed, and said, "You believe because you have seen...Blessed are those who believe without seeing." The fact remains, however, that if Thomas hadn't been permitted to see and touch Jesus it wouldn't have changed the reality of the resurrection one iota. Thomas' problem wasn't lack of faith, it was misdirected faith. He trusted only what he could process on a human level. Sound familiar?
> 
> ...



re the bold:

another "take"...when the priests took the sacrifice to god, the animal being sacrificed had to be blemish free (jesus is sinless), and could only be touched by the priest during and after the sacrifice until the sacrifice was brought before god for his acceptance and approval (jesus' telling mary not to touch him because he had not yet ascended to heaven for god's acceptance and approval as the sacrifice). anyone touching the sacrifice before it being brought to god, tainted it and made it unusable. jesus later let his wounds be touched.

i have heard this taught only by one minster/ministry.


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## envybeauty (Apr 4, 2008)

I like this post!                                  !



CurleeDST said:


> Blessed are those who believe without seeing. - John 20:29 NLT
> 
> Asking for proof before you believe something can stop you from receiving what God wants you to accept based on His Word. Thomas watched Jesus die. That's hard evidence to refute. As a result Thomas decided to believe only what he could see and verify. When your faith's been shaken, you're inclined to cling to things that are practical, absolute and tangible. Jesus graciously gave Thomas the proof he needed, and said, "You believe because you have seen...Blessed are those who believe without seeing." The fact remains, however, that if Thomas hadn't been permitted to see and touch Jesus it wouldn't have changed the reality of the resurrection one iota. Thomas' problem wasn't lack of faith, it was misdirected faith. He trusted only what he could process on a human level. Sound familiar?
> 
> ...


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## CurleeDST (Apr 4, 2008)

When they walk through the Valley of Weeping...They will continue to grow stronger. - Psalm 84:6-7 NLT 

When you lose what you love you go through five stages: (1) Denial - "No, it can't be happening." (2) Anger - "God, why are You permitting this?" (3) Bargaining - "Please make it go away." (4) Depression - Silence and withdrawal. (5) Acceptance - "Not my will but Yours be done." 

Whether it's the loss of a child, a marriage, a job, your health, etc. when you turn to God He'll give you the grace to embrace it, grieve it, express it, release it, and go on to become stronger. Sometimes we seek quick relief by releasing it before we've gone through these stages. That's because we fear the process. We've been taught that any show of emotion is a show of weakness, so we stuff it. But we only stuff it into our emotional rubbish bin, then spend all our time and energy sitting on the lid, trying to keep the contents from spilling out. "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (Jn 8:32). It's knowing and embracing the truth, including its painful aspects, that sets you free. You must be willing to forgive. But until you come to grips with the enormity of your loss, including any injustice of what was done to you, you are not ready to forgive. When you rush to forgive, you forgive only in part and you're released only in part. 

Are you running from pain today? Are you trading it in prematurely for some other feeling? That's not God's way. Jesus said, "You will weep and mourn...but [eventually] your grief will turn to joy...and no one will take [it] away" (Jn 16:20-22 NIV).


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## CurleeDST (Apr 4, 2008)

We should make plans - counting on God to direct us. - Proverbs 16:9 TLB 

There must be a balance between faith and careful planning. Yet, talk to some professing Christians and you might think otherwise. For example, talk with some who are unemployed and they'll tell you, "I'm just waiting for the Lord to provide a job." That's fine, but have you sharpened your job skills? And where have you placed your r‚sum‚? You say, "I'm not going that route, I'm just waiting on God." Oh, really? Then you won't mind going hungry for a while. The old motto of soldiers during the Revolutionary War applies here: "Trust God, but keep your powder dry!" Place your life in God's hands, but stay at the ready. You must do all you can to prepare yourself, understanding that the favour you need comes from the Lord. 

To walk by faith does not mean you stop thinking, planning, taking advice, and self-correcting. And it definitely doesn't imply becoming lazy or apathetic. What a distortion of Biblical faith! Trust God for your finances, but don't 'blow your budget'. Trust God for safety in the car, but don't pass on a blind curve. Trust God for your health, but don't chain-smoke, stay up half the night and subsist on potato chips and fizzy drink. 

Acting foolishly, expecting God to bail you out when things go amiss, isn't faith, it's presumption. Wisdom says do all you can, then trust God to do what you cannot do. Faith and careful planning go hand-in-hand. They always have and they always will!


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## envybeauty (Apr 4, 2008)

^^^where are you getting these?


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## CurleeDST (Apr 4, 2008)

My email prayer circle!  It is great.


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