# Do you take the Bible literally?



## CoilyFields (Apr 13, 2012)

Didnt see this topic in the search but please let me know if its been discussed before.

I wanted to know if you took the Bible Literally?

If not, how do you judge between what actually happened and what is just an example/fable?

Just for clarification...I dont mean the parables that Jesus told. He was not talking about actual events that had happened to specific people but was using fictitious people in real-life contexts. (I think...though it is possible that since He did know everything from the begining of time that His parables did stem from actual events lol dunno).


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## loolalooh (Apr 13, 2012)

Yes, other than the parables, I take the Bible literally.  I did initially question the stories of Adam and Eve, and Noah, but upon discovering who the author was (i.e., Moses) I believe the stories to be true.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Apr 13, 2012)

yes I do...to not take it literally imo would mean to question it validity on certain points.


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## auparavant (Apr 13, 2012)

Only the portions that are meant to be taken literally.


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## naturalgyrl5199 (Apr 13, 2012)

^^^As do I. I also consider it a guide, as perfect example. Many say that it's also an ancient text and does not apply to these times. I do not agree. Every scripture I find upon reflection is pertinent to all the things going on right now!


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## Shimmie (Apr 13, 2012)

CoilyFields said:


> Didnt see this topic in the search but please let me know if its been discussed before.
> 
> *I wanted to know if you took the Bible Literally?*
> 
> ...



YES ! ! !  



Time and again, God's Word has proven itsself to be exactly what it says it is...  Literally Truth!


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## Renewed1 (Apr 14, 2012)

YES I DO!!! 

I will admit those stories are GOOD! I learned one of Jacob's sons slept with his concubine and what happened etc.


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## blazingthru (Apr 14, 2012)

Yes, I realize that something's is literal and some are parables, and some are symbolic and prophecy all of it is useful for teaching us and showing us some examples, something's requires research hence the reason why you can't take everything literal you have to do some research as to the meaning.   I heard a story one time about a man who came to visit us and asked directions to wonderland. Everyone he met laugh because you see we know there is no such place, but he didn't know that.  The same is with the bible, there are things in there that made sense to the people at that time but our generation needs further searching to understand its meaning. 
Jotham’s Parable
7 When Jotham heard about this, he climbed to the top of Mount Gerizim and shouted,
“Listen to me, citizens of Shechem!
    Listen to me if you want God to listen to you!
8 Once upon a time the trees decided to choose a king.
    First they said to the olive tree,
    ‘Be our king!’
9 But the olive tree refused, saying,
‘Should I quit producing the olive oil
    that blesses both God and people,
    just to wave back and forth over the trees?’


10 “Then they said to the fig tree,
    ‘You be our king!’
11 But the fig tree also refused, saying,
‘Should I quit producing my sweet fruit
    just to wave back and forth over the trees?’
 12 “Then they said to the grapevine,
    ‘You be our king!’
13 But the grapevine also refused, saying,
‘Should I quit producing the wine
    that cheers both God and people,
    just to wave back and forth over the trees?’
 14 “Then all the trees finally turned to the thornbush and said,
    ‘Come, you be our king!’
15 And the thornbush replied to the trees,
‘If you truly want to make me your king,
    come and take shelter in my shade.
If not, let fire come out from me
    and devour the cedars of Lebanon.’”
This is a parable can we believe its true, no, we can't we know that trees do not talk. Just as if you pulled Luke 16 apart you would know its true meaning. Which is not the story? This parable if it were true contradicts the bible in every aspect, it is not true it's a parable as the story above. But it has a purpose and an important lesson.


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## CoilyFields (Apr 14, 2012)

auparavant said:
			
		

> Only the portions that are meant to be taken literally.



Lol! Care to expound?  auparavant @galadrial is there a guide in Catholicism that outlines what is literal and what isn't?


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## CoilyFields (Apr 14, 2012)

blazingthru said:
			
		

> Yes, I realize that something's is literal and some are parables, and some are symbolic and prophecy all of it is useful for teaching us and showing us some examples, something's requires research hence the reason why you can't take everything literal you have to do some research as to the meaning.   I heard a story one time about a man who came to visit us and asked directions to wonderland. Everyone he met laugh because you see we know there is no such place, but he didn't know that.  The same is with the bible, there are things in there that made sense to the people at that time but our generation needs further searching to understand its meaning.
> Jotham’s Parable
> 7 When Jotham heard about this, he climbed to the top of Mount Gerizim and shouted,
> “Listen to me, citizens of Shechem!
> ...



blazingthru
How do you determine which is literal, parable,  or symbolic?  

For example Luke 16 has two parables. They may not have a literally happened but the context in which they are given is true and relatable for his present audience. 
 But I have also heard some christians say that the story of Jonah is not true. Would you consider that story only symbolic or are you speaking of only the parables of Jesus as being symbolic?


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## Galadriel (Apr 14, 2012)

CoilyFields said:


> Lol! Care to expound?  @auparavant @galadrial is there a guide in Catholicism that outlines what is literal and what isn't?



CoilyFields

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

*First principle*

  The writer begins by dividing the genuine sense of Sacred Scripture like so: 


the literal sense
its nature
its division
its ubiquity
its unity and multiplicity
The two kinds of a so-called sense of Scripture which at best bear only an analogy to the real Biblical sense:
the derivative or consequent sense, and
Biblical accommodation.
 
 
the typical sense.
its nature
its divisions
its existence
its occurrence in the Old Testament and in the New
its criterion
its theological value.
 
 *Second principle*

  In the next place the writer treats of the method of finding the genuine sense of Scripture, considering: 


the human character of the Bible, which demands an historico-grammatical interpretation so that the commentator must keep in mind
the significance of the literary expression of its sacred and Scriptural language;
the sense of its literary  expression, which is often determined by the subject matter of the  writing, by its occasion and purpose, by the grammatical and logical context, and by parallel passages;
the historical setting of the book and its author.
 
The Divine or inspired character of the Bible requires a so-called Catholic interpretation, which involves additional directions of both
a negative character preventing (a) all irreverence and (b) the admission of any error and
of a positive nature, which bid the interpreter to respect (a) the definitions of the Church, (b) the patristic interpretation, and (c) the analogy of faith.
 
 *Third principle*

  After the genuine sense of Sacred Scripture has been found, it had to be presented to others by means of 


the version,
the paraphrase,
the gloss and scholion,
the dissertation,
or finally the commentary.
 The homily may also be classed among the more popular method of Biblical exposition. *Fourth principle*

  The concluding pages of the article EXEGESIS are devoted to a brief history of the subject: 


Jewish exegesis is divided into (a) Palestinian and (b) Hellenistic;
Christian exegesis comprises,
the patristic period
the Apostolic Fathers and apologists,
the Greek Fathers of both Alexandrian and Antiochene tendencies,
the Latin Fathers
 
the time from the Patristic age (in its narrower sense) to the Council of Trent, where we again meet with (a) Greek writers, and (b) Latin scholars, either pre-Scholastic or Scholastic;
the period after the Council of Trent with
its Catholic writers of the golden age, of the transition period, and of recent times, and
the non-Catholic exegetes, whether they be of the number of the early Reformers, or of their immediate successors, or again of the rationalists.
 
 

-------------------------
My commentary:

All historical books of the Bible are literal (Gospels, Exodus, etc.)

The epistles are letters written to historical people and are thus "literal" (Corinthians, Galatians, Romans, Jude, James, etc.). Even in the literal or historical works, we can glean deeper meaning and metaphorical understanding of certain things--which is why Christians tend to re-read the Bible over and over.

There are parables, prophecy and symbolic language (Psalms, Revelation, etc.). 

Unfortunately in our society we equate symbol with unreal or untrue. Symbols and metaphors (in this context) always point toward a deeper truth. Also, there are some books of the Bible that contain a mix of parables, history, etc. 

In looking at Scripture, you first have to take a look at each particular book of the Bible and see whether or not it's genre is historical (is it telling or recounting a historical event?), whether or not it's didactic (meant to teach us morals or theology), or if it's an epistle (letter), etc.


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## Crown (Apr 14, 2012)

Literally and/or spiritually.


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## Shimmie (Apr 14, 2012)

naturalgyrl5199 said:


> ^^^As do I. I also consider it a guide, as perfect example. Many say that it's also an ancient text and does not apply to these times. I do not agree. Every scripture I find upon reflection is pertinent to all the things going on right now!



 naturalgyrl5199  

Each scripture I too have found to be pertinent to all things going on right now.   The Word of God has always related to every event of life in types and shadows (forwarnings and symbols) of things that are and of things to come.

God's word is most definitely a guide... a lamp unto our feet and a light upon our paths.   The Word will literally 'lift' up from the pages and will and have spoken directly to my heart about specific situations in my life and the lives of others... always on target and on point.    

Indeed I take God's word literally...  It's Life ...


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## blazingthru (Apr 15, 2012)

HI Coilyfields,

I was trying really hard to condense everything to just a few lines, but it was not possible. I don't like to post long passages because no one really reads them.  I posted some time ago understanding parables. 
http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=403784
I was referring to Luke 16: 19, and I posted some information regarding that as well.
http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showpost.php?p=13746221&postcount=21
http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=552029&highlight=heaven+is+for+real
*Why cloak Bible prophecies in Symbols?*
Luke 8 :10 And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest, it is given in parables, that 'Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.'
Many of the apocalyptic prophecies were given while the prophets were in a hostile foreign land. One reason God cloaked the prophecies in symbols was to protect the messages.
While reading the bible it is so very important to pray. The holy spirit will guide you to understand. It’s good to take notes, because you can run through all three, literal truths, symbolism and a parable at the same time. 
I knowing  many of the symbols and memorizing them helps you to understand the scriptures . Here are a few with the scripture below,
*People and Body Parts *
• *Woman, Pure *= True Church Jeremiah 6:2; 2 Corinthians 11:2; Ephesians 5:23-27
• *Woman, Corrupt *= Apostate church Ezk. 16:15-58; 23:2-21; Hos. 2:5; 3:1; Rev. 14:4 
• Thief = Suddenness of Jesus' coming 1 Thessalonians 5:2-4; 2 Peter 3:10
• Hand = Deeds / Works / Actions Ecclesiastes 9:10, Isaiah 59:6 
• Forehead = Mind Deuteronomy 6:6-8, Romans 7:25; Ezekiel 3:8, 9 
• Feet = Your Walk / Direction Genesis 19:2, Psalm 119:105 
• Eyes = Spiritual Discernment Matthew 13:10-17, 1 John 2:11 
• Skin = Christ's righteousness Exodus 12:5, 1 Peter 1:19, Isaiah 1:4-6 
• Harlot = Apostate church/religion Isaiah 1:21-27; Jeremiah 3:1-3; 6-9
• Heads = Major powers/rulers/governments Revelation 17:3, 9, 10


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## blazingthru (Apr 15, 2012)

You determine how it is literal and or parable and or symbolic by studying the passage who is the person speaking to who is the audience, what is going on at that time. 

. The Bible is a spiritual revelation. Spiritual things must be spiritually discerned.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

While most parts of the Bible can and should be taken literally, the existence of figurative, symbolic, metaphorical communication must be expected and respected. Passages which are literal, and can be understood literally just as they are written, often also can be interpreted metaphorically, indeed are meant to be interpreted metaphorically. This is a simple truth easily overlooked or resisted.

 Jesus used a Scripture about a "shepherd" to know what would happen to His own life. Jesus quotes the prophet Zechariah 13:7 in Matthew 26:31:

Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, "I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad."

Yet Jesus was a carpenter, not a shepherd. He used the Scripture about a "shepherd" symbolically. Symbolically He was a shepherd. He called Himself the "Good Shepherd." In applying the Bible symbolically, Jesus sets an example for us as Bible students.

 I believe that Jonah is a true story.  It is not unique, it has happen before in our own time. I believe all the stories in the bible because they are telling an event that happen but the parables have a different meaning in which we need to take a closer look at each word to find the real meaning. Remember who was the audience Jesus spoke to and what is the message behind he message, what is he really saying. 

Many are the ways in which Jonah was a sign, or type, of Christ. The principle sign of Jesus to His people was His resurrection. "Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. ... But he spake of the temple of his body." John 2:18-21.

In the same way, the "sign of Jonah" to the Ninevites was that God had, in figure, raised him from certain death. No doubt Jonah, like Jesus, bore scars from his ordeal. As Jonah went down the streets of Nineveh preaching, his skin could very well have been bleached and raw-covered with bits of dried seaweed. There have been at least three examples in modern times where people were swallowed by some type of large fish and were later rescued alive. The reports were that their skin was "burnt and pale." I am sure Jonah shared with his audience the highlights of his adventure and his virtual resurrection from certain death.

Today every real Christian has, like Jonah, experienced a type of resurrection and new life (Romans 6:4). We are each are called to go where God sends us-without consulting our fears-and to preach a message of mercy and warning. Yet much of the Christian church is turning away from modern Jonahs. Still today, there are those who will not believe unless they see signs and wonders, healings and miracles.

The sign Jesus gave to His generation is still valid today. For three days and nights He took the punishment through suffering and the penalty through death. Then He rose again from the jaws of the grave. And most important of all, Jesus gave us His eternal Word to guide us to the kingdom. Christ said, "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31.


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## blazingthru (Apr 15, 2012)

Pastor Batchelor's message, few miracles of Scripture have been more doubted and maligned than the story of Jonah. Sure, it seems too incredible to believe that someone could be swallowed whole by a large fish, much less survive for three days in its belly! (The claims that a whale could not swallow a man whole is a myth! But it’s really not an issue either, because the word used in Jonah 1:17, like the one in Matthew 12:40, does not mean whale; instead, it means sea monster.) 

I confess that early in my Christian experience, I wondered how the story of Jonah could be literally true. But then I heard Dr. J. Vernon McGee, on his Through The Bible radio broadcast, cite three credible examples in modern times in which people were swallowed by some type of large fish—and then were later rescued alive!


One story dates back to the late 19th century. The Star of the East, a whaling ship operating off the Falkland Islands in the South Atlantic, was in pursuit of a large whale. Its harpoon boats were launched, and the whale was successfully speared. However, in the violence that followed, one of the smaller boats capsized — throwing two crewmembers into the sea. One of them was found drowned, but the other, James Bartley, disappeared without a trace. The whale was eventually subdued, and its carcass hoisted onto the ship where the crew began carving it up for blubber

After a couple of days, they worked down to the stomach, where they noticed something large moving around inside. They cut the stomach open—and there lay James Bartley. He was doubled up, unconscious, and even somewhat digested, but he was alive! They doused him with seawater, put him in the captain's cabin to recover—and after a few weeks of bed-rest, he was back on the job.


Some accounts include a detailed description of what Bartley experienced and felt during his whale of a journey. He said that he remembered flying through the air when the whale struck the boat with its tail. Then suddenly, darkness surrounded him as he slipped along a smooth passage of some sort. He then came into a larger area marked by a slimy substance that shrunk from his touch. He soon realized that he was in the whale. He could breathe, but it was also very hot! He said that later he lost consciousness, and the next thing he remembered was the crew caring for him.


Other accounts say that Bartley’s skin was permanently affected by the gastric juices in the whale, and that he had a bleached-white appearance for the remainder of his life. Other versions describe his skin as having a bluish color after his rescue. 


Beyond this evidence, we should not forget that the Bible says: “Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah” (Jonah 1:17). This means that whatever modification this creature needed to accommodate Jonah’s temporary residence, God prepared it. Yet even more powerful than these arguments, it should be sufficient for every Christian that Jesus states Jonah’s experience was a fact and not a fable (Matthew 12:40). 

The problem is when "Christians" start taking text and discounting it and then still calling themselves Christians.  Really?


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## PinkPebbles (Apr 15, 2012)

Ladies - I have a question.

Did Jonah literally get trapped in a whales mouth? 

I know with God anything is possible but I always wondered was Jonah really in a whales mouth for days....


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## Crown (Apr 15, 2012)

PinkPebbles said:


> Ladies - I have a question.
> 
> Did Jonah literally get trapped in a whales mouth?
> 
> I know with God anything is possible but I always wondered was Jonah really in a whales mouth for days....



Mat. 12 : 39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.40  For *as Jonah* was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge  fish, *so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights* in the heart  of the earth.41  *The men of Nineveh* *will stand up at the judgment* with this generation  and condemn it; for *they repented at the preaching of Jonah*, and now  something *greater than Jonah is here*.42  *The Queen of the South will rise at the judgmen*t with this generation  and condemn it; for she *came from the ends of the earth to listen to  Solomon’s wisdom*, and now something *greater than Solomon is here.*

It's not a parable @PinkPebbles


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## PinkPebbles (Apr 15, 2012)

Crown said:


> Mat. 12 : 39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.40 For *as Jonah* was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, *so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights* in the heart of the earth.41 *The men of Nineveh* *will stand up at the judgment* with this generation and condemn it; for *they repented at the preaching of Jonah*, and now something *greater than Jonah is here*.42 *The Queen of the South will rise at the judgmen*t with this generation and condemn it; for she *came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom*, and now something *greater than Solomon is here.*
> 
> It's not a parable @PinkPebbles


 
Crown thank you!!!!

This verse stood out to me and the story of Jonah gives me much more understanding of God's plan during that time...."_For *as Jonah* was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, *so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights* in the heart of the earth."_


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## SweetSimplicity (Apr 15, 2012)

Yes I believe that the majority of the bible is to be taken literally.  For example, I believe Adam and Eve were literal people not just a representation of Humanity.  Believe in a literal flood story.  I believe all the Historical events stated in the bible to be true. I always thought the parables were real stories( never really thought about it) but whether they were or not their purpose is to teach a greater lesson.
I believe there is a literal Satan, literal Heaven and Hell.

The Book of Revelation contains a lot of symbolism where it mentions the different "Women"  "Beasts" and the dragons.  Some examples of  things that I do believe to be literal in Revelations is that the saints will reign with Christ a literal 1000 years, that there will be a literal new Heaven and New Earth.

I believe everything that is in the bible is thereto teach us everything we need to know about God and how we are to live in this current life and the hope awaiting us in the next life.


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## Ivonnovi (Apr 16, 2012)

No, I do not; however, I do respect the content, examples, and guidance.


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## Laela (Apr 16, 2012)

I take the Bible literally... and spiritually. Something that is literal is accurate and without exaggeration... I believe there was an actual Goliath and David knocked him out with a pebble. I believe Lot's  wife turned to a pillar salt. I believe there was a great flood and only Noah and his family survived. I believe Jesus healed all those folks and raised people from the dead...I believe every single Word.


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## naturalgyrl5199 (Apr 16, 2012)

*LADIES:*

Quick question. I would like feedback. (I have 2 Examples)

I believe that a "literal interpretation" may still be interpreted differently. 
Even scholars who legitimately "interpret" the Bible with genuine interest often disagree. This is nothing new.

Example 1) There a is a scripture in the NT about "women being quiet" (I'm at work, no time to pull the verses!)

Many interpret this to mean women cannot be worship leaders or be ordained as ministers, etc to lead all....

Some interpret this to mean that AT THAT TIME, not enough men were participating in the "church" and thus women filled that role, and the person saying "women be quiet" was saying that for the purpose of let men step up now....but certainly NOT that women cannot or should not lead in the church.... 

Many people think it is not God's will for women to lead in the church based on the SAME scripture...
I think God ordains authority to those we may or may not approve of.
I have been ministered to by many women who are ordained ministers, pastors, etc. 
However the scripture in question can be taken many ways.

Example 2) There is a scripture in the NT about Deacons having one wife.
Many interpret this to mean: a) In order to be a deacon in the church you must be MARRIED. An unmarried person cannot be deacons. b) Others say it simply means you should be married (IF YOU ARE MARRIED) to one wife and not practice polygamy...for the purpose of not having to split your time any more away from God with the responsibility of having more than 1 wife.

This was brought to my attention a few years ago as a member of a very young church (age-wise) I attended as an undergrad. My younger brother...23-24 at the time was trained and then "ordained" if that's what its called as a deacon. He was single, and very active in the church. I was told our church was wrong and following the devil because deacons were supposed to be married. Another lady in that conversation said her husband was trained 7 years and only after they got married, was he allowed to be a deacon at all, due to that scripture. My arguement was that as a young church THERE WERE NO married couples yet (may be one or two had just gotten married), that had been trained or tested yet, and that waiting for someone to get married could take a while because many of our members were young, single, and focusing on school. They seemed to understand this. But that's how they were taught. I did not think they were wrong because the scripture mentioned the one wife thing....BUT they saw and understood our situation. My brother didn't get married for 3 more years, but was so active, and so helpful, our Pastor felt he was ready. And of course he filled the role honorably....
Feedback? (sorry so long)


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## CoilyFields (Apr 16, 2012)

@Galadriel @blazingthru

Thank you both for giving a further in depth explanantion.

I had originally wondered this becuase someone I had witnessed to in the past came back (years later) and told me they were now a believer. But they had trouble accepting the Bible. But then they told me that a pastor had told them that it wasn't literal. Just stories that we should learn from...like aesops fables. I was appalled! I tried to direct them to resources where they could do their own in depth study of the Bible and to pray for faith and understanding. 

But I wanted to know if other believers thought this too and how one would rationalize what was "fake" and what was "real". Like, if the virgin birth was a myth...then Jesus' quaifications as savior (being sinless) did not exist right?. Or how did one decide that God did not part the Red Sea but Jesus did walk on water? Was is just the "miraculous" that is not taken as truth? And if so...is it that much harder to believe in His wonderous works than it is to believer in an almighty God?

I understand everyones explanations and we all seem to be basically on the same page (Historical facts, Real individuals, parables, symbols/types etc.). Has anyone had conversations with other Christians who believe otherwise? If so, how have they rationalized this?

ETA: OK I posted too late lol. @Ivonnovi would you mind explaining why and how you would answer my above questions?


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## CoilyFields (Apr 16, 2012)

naturalgyrl5199 said:


> *LADIES:*
> 
> Quick question. I would like feedback. (I have 2 Examples)
> 
> ...


 
naturalgyrl5199  lol heres one more interpretation for you...the deacon cannot be divorced!  I agree with you about the multiple interpretations people have. But one thing that will help with understanding the Bible is understanding context and cultural norms of the time.

 I believe that the Bible is teaching us principle when addressing certain cultural norms that existed back then. Like there is also a verse somewhere that tells women to have their heads covered, dont ask questions in service but wait until they get home and ask their husbands etc. As I understand it these directives were in accordance with the culture where, for example, covering your head was seen as an act of submission (Priests also had to do this at times), and often prostitutes delineated themselves by having their head uncovered in public etc. But those things are not true for us today. But the principle of being modest, especially in the house of God is still true. Another example would be slavery. Though the Bible teaches slaves to obey their masters and not hate them that doesnt mean that it supported slavery. It spoke to an audience/culture where slavery was the norm and taught the principle of respecting authority, loving those who despitefully used you, gentleness to those who you had authority over etc. (Doesnt mean that today we should go out and get some slaves and just make sure we treat them right!)

There will always be many different interpretations of what even one verse says/means but as we were discussing in the other thread (what the majority do) these should not be points of judgement nor division between us. So one church should not say that another is following the devil because the deacon wasnt married. 

I have a strong aversion to when people make sins out of things that are not sins! I believe it binds us to mans law/traditions instead of Gods! And we should be very reluctant of accusing our brothers and sisters...thats satans job.


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## Galadriel (Apr 16, 2012)

CoilyFields usually the people I've come across who have trouble with accepting parts of Scripture fall into two camps

1) They don't believe in miracles or in the miracles that the Bible reports, because of a materialistic mindset (matter is all there is, science is the only measure of truth/knowledge).

2) They don't believe in the Bible's moral teachings, and especially in the existence of Hell.




CoilyFields said:


> @Galadriel @blazingthru
> 
> Thank you both for giving a further in depth explanantion.
> 
> ...


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## blazingthru (Apr 16, 2012)

I don't believe in the existence of Hell. based on studying, Its a contridictory to what the scriptures tells us about heaven and about hell. Jesus says clearly in his explanation of the parable. that the wicked are reserved until the end of the world. 


Matthew 13:37-53
King James Version (KJV)

37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 

38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 

39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 

40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 

41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 

42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 

43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. 

44Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. 

45Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: 

46Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it. 

47Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: 

48Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. 

49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 

50And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 

51Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord. 

52Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old. 

53And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these parables, he departed thence

2 Peter 2:9
King James Version (KJV)

9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:



Reserved? Where are they reserved, in a waiting area?  

No, in the grave

John 5:28-29
King James Version (KJV)

28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 

29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



But I believe that the discussion and many contridictions on heaven and Hell has turned people off to studying the bible, or  having anything to do with spiriitual people, Church etc. Which I totally understand, because that was me sometime ago, to many stories and none adding up. it is deeper study we find the real story. We need to be people of the book who clearly want to know the truth and not run after falsehoods. Somethings cannot be taken literal they have to be viewed as deeper studying text.  Plus I am concern when  the majority believe in something. In every instance in the bible few chose the more difficult path to christ and that is really how it is now.  Most proclaim but few will actually followed the right path.  I followed my path because it was not the norm but everything flowed correctly and made perfect sense, I got a lot of backlash, lost some friends and family members and gained a new life that I would not trade for the world.


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## Poohbear (Apr 16, 2012)

For those of you who take the bible literally... do you all live by the following verse literally?

*1 John 3:9 - Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.*


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## Crown (Apr 16, 2012)

Poohbear said:


> For those of you who take the bible literally... do you all live by the following verse literally?
> 
> *1 John 3:9 - Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.*


I said : literally and/or spiritually,
but there is no contradiction with this verse.
We are the work of God, in process and progress.

It's not a fairy tale! Time is required and faith and obedience.

In the natural, it takes time to be born.

These verses can better explain what I am saying : It is a process, kingdoms to conquer (we have many,-pride, lust, lie, adultery, fornication, indifference...- and each must fall).

Jn 3:30 He(Christ) must become great*er*; I(Self) must become less.

2 Cor. 3:18But we all, with open  face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the  same image from *glory to glory*, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.


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## blazingthru (Apr 16, 2012)

@Poohbear

I hope this will help. But yes I do take it literally. There are just some things that were a habit to me that I could never ever do now and day by day its gets better and better, things that I struggle with before is nothing to me now. 


Recently I read the amazing account of a man who submitted to a scientific hypnosis experiment. While under the influence of a light hypnotic trance the subject was ordered to pick up a glass from the table. Although he was a strong, athletic type, the man could not budge the glass from its position. His most strenuous exertions could not lift the glass that was light enough for any child to remove. 

Why could he not do it? Because the scientists, after placing him in the trance, had told him that it was impossible to pick up the glass. Because his mind was convinced that it could not be done, his body was unable to carry out the command to lift it. What a dramatic demonstration that no person can really obey commandments which he believes to be impossible of performance! 

Is this the reason so many Christians are living weak, defeated lives? There is no question that the popular, modern theology has been teaching millions that no one can really live without sinning. The Ten Commandments have been portrayed as an idealistic code produced only for the purpose of making people conscious of their need. 

Many modern Christians are turning more and more to a soft, lenient stance on the subject of law-keeping. They believe God’s love is incompatible with strict rules and penalties for violation. 

That is a very comfortable doctrine but completely foreign to what the Bible teaches. Millions are being conditioned to break the great moral law of the universe—without feeling any guilt! The Word of God gives no one an excuse to feel relaxed about sin. It is the central problem of every person who has been born. Like a highly contagious disease, sin has infected every soul with the germs of death, and no earthly cure or deterrent has been found to halt the fatal progress of the sickness. 

From the first appearance of sin in the Garden of Eden it has been totally disruptive of everything good. Never in one instance has it been able to coexist with righteousness and holiness. The requirements of God make it utterly impossible for sin or disobedience to be a part of the Christian lifestyle. The new tolerance for it is not biblical in any sense of the word. Jesus came to save people from it; He came to destroy it. It will never enter into heaven. Our attitude toward it must be uncompromising. There can be no question of making it more acceptable by diminishing the amount of it or changing its form. It must be destroyed. And the only means of eradicating it is by receiving the fullness of Jesus Christ and His grace into the life. 

How strange it is that so many church members have now become apologetic for sin, as though it cannot be prevented from triumphing in the life of a Christian. How dare we misrepresent the power of God’s grace in the gospel! Jesus has already defeated the devil, and no Christian should be intimidated by an inferior, defeated foe. We have no business justifying the transgression of the Ten Commandments. 

It is serious enough to engage willfully in an act of sin, but it is infinitely more deadly to defend it as something which cannot be prevented. To say that victory is impossible is to deny the adequacy of the gospel and to negate a large portion of the inspired Scriptures. In addition, it adds support to the original charge of Satan against God, and gives a paralyzing, false security to everyone who believes in it. 

Often people are defensive of sin because they have not been able to stop doing it in their own strength. For example, when they can’t stop smoking, they must find a rationalization for its presence in their lives. Instead of making the humiliating confession that they can’t conquer it, they fabricate arguments that it really doesn’t hurt them or that no one can be perfect. Or the popular, convenient doctrine that no one can really live without sin anyway. 

It is probably safe to say that the majority of Christians today are resigned to falling short of the moral law. In fact, they are quite satisfied that God doesn’t even expect them to fulfill that law completely, either in the flesh or in the spirit. 

The effect of such a teaching is exactly what one would expect—multitudes of emotionally happy, but disobedient, church members who feel that any concern about keeping the commandments is nitpicking and legalistic. 

What a delusive strategy of Satan! As the inventor of the doctrine, the evil one is simply supporting his ancient accusation that God was asking too much. He accused God of being unfair by requiring something that was impossible. 

He was able to convince a third of the angels that God was unreasonable to expect obedience to His law, and he has been trying to make everybody else believe it since that time. Think about it for a moment, and the entire scheme begins to make a lot of diabolical sense. Satan knows that sin is the only thing that will keep anyone out of heaven. Since sin is the “transgression of the law,” he had to perfect a plan to make people look lightly upon breaking the law and also cause it to appear unobjectionable (1 John 3:4). To make the idea acceptable to Christians, Satan actually was able to disguise it as a doctrine and foist it upon a compromised Christianity. 

In every evangelistic crusade, we meet it in one form or another, usually at the point of the law and the Sabbath. The inconvenient claims of obedience are shrugged off with a “Well, nobody can keep the Ten Commandments anyway.” 

But the problem doesn’t end there. Even Christians who have accepted the claims of the moral law are not too concerned about how well they fulfill it either. In a subtle way they have been affected by the prevalent belief that too much concern about obedience is a form of salvation by works. Incredibly, some seem to be so fearful of keeping the law too closely that they actually make provision to break it. By doing so they perversely comfort themselves for not being legalistic. 

How could people committed to commandment-keeping ever come to such a confused contradiction within themselves? Exposure to a false concept of righteousness by faith is only part of the answer. Much of the problem is based upon human failure and weakness of the flesh. Because they found themselves stumbling in their efforts to be perfect, they finally concluded that it was impossible not to sin. From that point it was easy to start interpreting Bible texts to support their weak experience. Satan exploited the psychological bent of the human mind to rationalize, and soon they had developed a comfortable doctrine that accommodated their occasional deviations from the law. Consequently, most Christians today are resigned to an alternating experience of victory-defeat, victory-defeat. To them it is the approved lifestyle of normal Christianity. 

But something is fearfully wrong with this position. In the first place, doctrine should never be based on feeling or human experience. It must be rooted in the plain, unequivocal teaching of the Word of God. It is true that Bible texts can be assembled which seem to support the doctrine of spiritual imperfection. We are assured that all have sinned, that the carnal mind is enmity against God, and that man’s righteousness is as filthy rags. But all the verses about failure, sin, and defeat are in reference to the unregenerate experience of a person. There are literally scores of other texts which describe an opposite experience of total victory and sinless living. In every case they are referring to the Spirit-filled life of a converted, committed child of God. 

This distinction must always be recognized in the reading of the Scripture. The gospel of Jesus Christ is the power of God unto salvation. His grace is stronger than all the concentrated forces of evil. Jesus came to save His people from their sin. No one who reads the sixth chapter of Romans intelligently can believe that the Christian is free to practice sin. Paul utterly devastates the doctrine that a believer should keep on falling into sin. 
It is true that provision is made for cleansing in case sin is committed, but God’s perfect plan made it possible for man to overcome every sin and to live a life of perfect obedience through Christ. In fact, the promises of the Bible are so clear and specific on this point that it is hard to get confused. No secret meaning or hidden reservation can be found in the myriad of texts which describe the victorious experience of the born-again child of God. And just because one may not have grown into that fullness of faith which brings constant victory, he should not, therefore, deny the power of God to give such deliverance. When Peter began sinking in the Sea of Galilee, it was not because God’s plan or power had failed. Peter could have rationalized, like so many modern Christians, and said, “God didn’t want me to walk on the water, and besides, it’s impossible for anybody to do such a thing anyway.” Like our first parents we still tend to place the ultimate blame on God when we fail to follow His plan of holy living.


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## blazingthru (Apr 16, 2012)

*Total Victory Promised​*​

The Spirit of God seemed to anticipate the struggle many would pass through in accepting the biblical assurances of total victory. Consequently the inspired writers were moved to use almost fanatical language in describing the possibilities for overcoming sin. Superlative expressions are utilized which actually boggle the mind. Instead of saying we may be saved, the Bible says we can be “saved to the uttermost” (Hebrews 7:25). Instead of saying we may conquer, it assures that we can be “more than conquerors” (Romans 8:37). Instead of being told that we can just triumph, we are told that we may “always triumph” (2 Corinthians 2:14). Instead of promising whatever we might ask to help us in our spiritual battles, the Bible says He will give us “exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think” (Ephesians 3:20). And the verse just prior to that one clearly guarantees that we may “be filled with all the fullness of God” (verse 19). 

Admittedly, many of these promises are too vast for our human minds to comprehend fully, but surely they are intended to impress us with the magnitude of God’s resources in our behalf. If the language sounds exaggerated it is only because we are too feeble in faith and too weak in the flesh to believe such purity and sanctification could ever be fulfilled in us. We tend to trust our feelings quicker than the Word of God. 

Is it important to believe the promises exactly as they read? Yes, because it is only through those promises that deliverance can be accomplished. “Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust” (2 Peter 1:4). 

Notice that it is “by these” that we escape the corruption of sin. What are “these”? The promises of God. The sequence of victory is plainly marked out in this fantastic text. By faith in the promise we become a partaker of the divine nature, and through the power of that new nature in us we are able to escape the corruption of sin. In other words, everything depends on the surrender and commitment of one’s self to the indwelling Spirit of Christ. “Without me,” Jesus said, “ye can do nothing” (John 15:5). 
Equally important is the inspired comment of Paul, “I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me” (Philippians 4:13). That little expression “all things” is the key to victory for every one of us. It includes power over drugs, immorality, appetite, pride, and every act of sin that would rob us of eternal life. 




*All Things Available​*​

The big point here is that when you get the power of Christ in your life, you have everything else you could ever desire. “He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?” (Romans 8:32). There is that term again—“all things.” You will find it also in 2 Peter 1:3: “According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness ...” 

When you put those texts together, an incredible picture emerges. By claiming the presence of Christ in your life, you also receive everything that Christ possesses. Paul described it this way: “But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption” (1 Corinthians 1:30). 

Here the “all things” are broken down into very particular, individualized experiences, and we begin to see that Peter was right in stating that God has given us all things that pertain to godliness. Those Christians who doubt the possibility of overcoming sin completely should read these verses carefully. What do those words “righteousness,” “redemption,” and “sanctification” include? All three of those words promise us more than deliverance from the guilt of our past sins. The word “redemption” is not limited to redemption from the guilt of sin, but from the power of sin also. “Sanctification” is a word that describes continuous, daily growth in overcoming sin. “Righteousness” literally means right-doing and applies to a dynamic fulfillment of God’s will. They are all big words, but they all have the connotation of being set free, both from the guilt and the practice of sin. 

Every child of Adam needs two things desperately—forgiveness for the past, and power for the future. Redemption includes both of them; and the idea that full deliverance from the guilt of sin is included, but only partial deliverance from the power of sin, is a perversion of the gospel. Jesus did not come to save us from the consequences of sin only, but to save us from the sin itself. Salvation is not a negative thing; not just the absence of something. He did not come just to take away something—our guilt—but to give us something—victory over sin. For God to forgive us and leave us under the power of continued sin would make God an accomplice of sin. He not only counts us righteous through the imputation of His atoning death, but He makes us righteous through the impartation of His victorious life. 

After thoughtfully reading the entire sixth chapter of Romans, if you need more assurance that victory can be yours, read the following: 

1 Corinthians 15:57—“But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.” 
1 John 5:4—“For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.” 
Philippians 2:5—“Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus.” 
2 Corinthians 5:21—“… that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” 
1 John 3:6—“Whatsoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.”
Let us return for a moment to the analogy of the hypnotized man. He could not physically lift a small glass from the table because his mind was so fully convinced that it couldn’t be done. Has Satan been able to immobilize the church through the power of his hypnotic, lying assertion that obedience is impossible? It certainly seems so. 

No one is going to put forth any serious effort to do something that he believes to be impossible. Obviously then, those who believe they cannot live without sinning are not attempting to live without sin. No reasonable person will waste time and effort in a vain struggle to accomplish nothing. 
That brings us to an interesting question: Can a person believe that there is no way to stop sinning, and yet make plans not to sin? Logically, it would seem highly unlikely, if not impossible. Yet the Bible commands us to “make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof”?(Romans 13:14). Do we indeed make provision for sin by holding that it is impossible not to sin?


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## blazingthru (Apr 16, 2012)

To Him That Overcometh


The entire book of Revelation is addressed to the seven churches of Asia. In each of the churches certain ones received high commendation and glorious promises of heavenly reward. Without exception the blessing was extended “to him that overcometh.” Those seven churches symbolize every period of the Christian church from the apostles to the end of time. If victory over sin is not possible, no soul will be saved from those centuries of time. 

To deny the possibility of total victory over sin is to rob God of the glory of His mission. He came, the Bible says, to destroy the works of the devil. Those works are the works of sin. If no one claimed His power to overcome sin completely, the devil’s accusation would be confirmed. The requirements of God would be exposed as too difficult to obey. 


Jesus stated that He had come “to seek and to save that which was lost” (Luke 19:10). Here He indicated that more than just people needed to be restored. “That which was lost” included a sinless character. His mission was to counteract and neutralize the entire program of sin-defilement introduced by Satan. Restoring the image of God in man is a very important part of the everlasting gospel. That work of the gospel must be done before Jesus comes and not as some magical afterthought of our returning Lord. 


The book of Revelation identifies the crowning characteristic of the redeemed as obedience. “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus” (Revelation 14:12). “And the dragon was wroth with the woman and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ” (Revelation 12:17). “Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city” (Revelation 22:14). 


How significant it is that man’s condition for remaining in Eden is also the condition for being restored to Eden. Anyone who believes obedience is unimportant should read again the dramatic story of Adam and Eve. A tiny, physical act of sin led to all the stark tragedy of the past 6,000 years. Those who are restored to that lost paradise will have demonstrated that they can be trusted with eternal life. Through faithful obedience in the face of death, they will have proven Satan’s charges to be utterly false. Their steadfast loyalty will be an eternal guarantee of the security of God’s restored dominion. 


What can we say, then, concerning those who look so lightly upon the good works of obedience? They are subjects of grave deception and are playing into Satan’s deadly sin-trap. The most glorious experience of the truly converted is to break the pattern of self-indulgence and sin. Under the rule of the Spirit of God, fleshly habits may be conquered and expelled from the life. Through faith in the promises unbelievable power may be released into the life of one who is willing to give up the enjoyment of sin. 


The heart of God longs for us to take Him at His word and to claim the power He has promised. It is the only road to real victory. But no one can experience victory who does not believe victory is possible. Read again the assurances of the Bible. Do not try to twist them to match the weaknesses and failures of your human experience. They mean what they say. Deliverance is yours for the believing and the asking. 


Right here we need to pause and consider an objection which is always brought against those who believe in total victory. It goes something like this: If you believe it is possible to live without sinning, are you able to say that your own life is free from sin? 


Although the question deserves an answer, it should be pointed out that the objection is not relevant to the issue. If the Bible establishes a truth, it should be received on the grounds of its inspired authority and not on the basis of the messenger’s experience. If victory over all sin is possible through Christ, it is true, whether the preacher has claimed it or not claimed it. Further, the work of sanctification is a progressive, lifelong experience and can never be considered as finished in point of time. Even if one could be unconscious of any known sin, he could never boast of being sinless. In fact, the person who is closest to perfection would surely be the least likely to recognize it. Because the nearer he gets to Jesus the more imperfect he will appear in his own eyes. 


The claim might also be made that the doctrine of victory over sin is highly idealistic and too theologically complicated to be practical. But nothing could be farther from the truth. Even a child can understand the simple faith-transaction of appropriating the promises of the Bible. There is not a habit or sin known to man that cannot be conquered through faith. 


In the next few minutes you will be able to appreciate the beauty of this divine victory plan. You will learn how to stop smoking, cursing, overeating, gossiping, or committing any other sin. Let nothing distract you as you proceed to the next paragraph. It could be the turning point of your life and mean more than all the money in the world. Since so many are struggling with cigarettes, I will use that indulgence as an illustration of the victory we are describing. Put your own problem into the text, and then take the four steps to glorious victory. 


*The Secret of Victory*


Have you heard about the evolutionary way of getting the victory over tobacco, or any other sin? It is sometimes called the “tapering” method, but generally it just doesn’t work. Oh, it partially works, of course, because old age takes care of some temptations and sins, and time settles the rest when death comes. But do you know why “trying” does not work in overcoming the devil? 

Why can’t we fight the devil for a few months and finally drive him away? Because the devil is stronger than we are. We could fight him for a year, but he would still be stronger than we are at the end of the year. Trying will never break the power of sin in a single instance, because we’re facing an enemy who will always be stronger than we are. What, then, is the answer to our weakness and defeat? This question leads us to the sweetest and most sublime secret in the Word of God. Let us study it thoughtfully and with much prayer. 


First of all, one must understand that all of heaven’s gifts are available to us through the promises of the Bible, and we receive them by faith. Peter describes the “exceeding great and precious promises” and assures us that “by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature” (2 Peter 1:4). Mighty power is stored within the promise to fulfill itself to all who claim it in faith. So few are willing to believe that the promised blessing becomes theirs the very moment they believe it. Why is it so hard to believe implicitly that God will do what He promises? 


Now let us come down to the very heart of victory and consider the four simple scriptural steps that any believer may take in claiming God’s power. Four texts will illuminate the amazing transaction. First: “But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Corinthians 15:57). Allow your mind to savor the fantastic message of these words. Victory is a gift! We do not earn it by our efforts, or deserve it because of any supposed goodness. The only thing we need do is ask for it, and the victory will be given to us freely by Christ. He is the only one who has ever gained the victory over Satan, and if we ever possess the victory, it will have to come as a gift from Him.


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## blazingthru (Apr 16, 2012)

Let me ask you something. Do you need victory in your life over some binding, miserable habit of sin? Some are slaves to appetite, to alcohol, or tobacco. Others are struggling helplessly against impurity, anger, or worldliness. The Bible says you may have the victory as a gift through Jesus Christ. Do you believe He will give you that power if you ask Him? How certain can you be that God will answer your prayer for victory immediately? Here is how sure you can be—just as sure as Christ’s words are true! Our second text is Matthew 7:11, “If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?” 


Is it a good thing when you ask for victory over tobacco, or any other fleshly or moral evil? Of course it is! And you don’t even have to ask if it is God’s will! He has already told us in the Bible that it is His will to destroy the works of sin and the devil. If we pray for more money or a better job we should always ask according to His will, but the victory over sin is promised to every one who asks in faith. 


Will God give the victory when we ask Him? Jesus said He was more willing to give this good thing than we are to feed our children when they are hungry. He is waiting to honor your faith and to “supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus” (Philippians 4:19). These assurances are so open-ended and unlimited that our minds are staggered by it. Why have we been so reluctant to apply for the provisions of grace? Why is it so hard to believe that God means exactly what He says? He will keep every promise. 




Faith Makes It So


Here is the next question. How do we know we have the victory after we ask Him? Simply because He said we would have it. We know God did not lie. We can believe His promise. The very moment we ask, we should accept the fact of fulfillment, thank Him for the gift, and get up and act like it has been done. No kind of proof-feeling or sign should be demanded or expected. The self-fulfilling power in the promise is released in response to our faith alone. 

This brings us to the third text, found in Romans 6:11, “Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.” The word “reckon” means to believe, or to consider it done. Every particle of faith should be focused on that one request for victory and then it should be accounted as done. Do you remember how Peter walked on the water? He asked Jesus if he could step out of the boat onto the raging sea, and Jesus told Peter to come. But how long did Peter do the impossible by walking on the water? The Bible says, “When he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me” (Matthew 14:30). 


What was Peter afraid of? He was afraid of sinking and drowning. In spite of Christ’s assurance that he could safely walk on the water, Peter began to doubt the word of the Master. That is when he began to sink. As long as he believed the promise of Jesus and acted in faith, he was safe. When he doubted, he sank. 


Now, what is the impossible thing as far as you are concerned? It is not walking on water. It is overcoming that tobacco habit. And Christ says, “Come to me. I will give you the victory.” As long as you believe that you have been delivered, you will have the victory. It is as simple as that. The very moment you ask for victory it will be placed in your life as a reservoir of power. You won’t feel it, but it is there. It will remain there as long as you accept it in faith. 


For some people the deliverance is so dramatic that they lose even the appetite for the sin. Tobacco addicts have sometimes been delivered from the craving, but this is not the usual way God does it. Usually, the desire remains, but in the moment of temptation, the power to walk past the temptation springs forth from within. Faith accepts the fact of deliverance and constantly claims the victory which is in the secure possession of the believer. 


The final step to victory is described in our fourth text, Romans 13:14. “But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.” So strong is the confidence in the appropriated power of God that no consideration is given to falling under the power of that sin again. Under the old “trying” plan, provision was made to fail in most cases. Cigarettes were placed on a shelf, and the smoker said to himself, “I’m going to try never to smoke again, but if I don’t make it I know where they are.” But under the “trusting” plan, we have no reason to fear failure on the grounds of human weakness. Victory does not depend on our strength but on God’s power. We might fail, but He cannot fail. Cigarettes are thrown away. All plans that might involve any degree of compromise are abandoned. 


Little Jimmy was in trouble because he had gone swimming against his mother’s orders. When asked why he had disobeyed her, Jimmy answered, “Because I got tempted.” Mother then said, “I noticed that you took your bathing suit with you this morning. Why did you do that?” Jimmy answered, “Because I expected to get tempted.” How typical of those who do not quite trust their own strength to win the victory. They make provision to fail. They take their bathing suit along. With God there need be no provision to fail. 


Someone might raise the objection that this could be discouraging. Suppose the person does fail? Even Peter began to sink. Would it not shake confidence in God if the victory was not maintained? No. Peter’s sinking had nothing to do with the failure of divine power. It did not change Christ’s will for him to walk on the water. It only pointed out Peter’s need of stronger faith to enable him to obey Christ’s command. Our faith could weaken. We might need to be reminded of our total dependence upon His strength. But this does not diminish the beautiful plan of God to impart power and victory through “exceeding great and precious promises” of the Bible. Without faith by the receiver not even God’s promises can be appropriated. The limits are clearly defined in the words of Jesus, “According to your faith be it unto you” (Matthew 9:29). 


There it is, friend, in all of its simplicity. And it works! If you are willing to be delivered, it works. Nothing will help the one who is not willing to give up the cigarettes. But if you want it, it is there. Victory, power, deliverance—just reach out in faith and it is yours. Believe it and claim it this very moment. God wants you to be free.
article by Joe Crews


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## CoilyFields (Apr 17, 2012)

The funny thing is...most Christians I know *do *believe that you have to live sinfree and fulfill the law or you go to hell...and they still live any kind of way. Even the ones that sin and say "dont judge me" or "God knows my heart" believe that if they dont get right theyre going to hell, even though they are saved. But yet...

In my estimation the problem isnt whether you think you will never sin again or if you will continue to sin at times. The problem is in folks not wanting to submit to God in _all _of their ways. Not wanting a relationship with him in which they will crucify their flesh daily, take up their cross and following Him with their whole hearts.


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## CoilyFields (Apr 17, 2012)

Poohbear said:


> For those of you who take the bible literally... do you all live by the following verse literally?
> 
> *1 John 3:9 - Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.*


 
Poohbear
I guess I should explain that when I say I take the Bible literally I mean that I believe the historical events and divine/miraculous acts written in it. That no part of the Bible is false. That the OT and NT are true accounts.

That does not mean that we take a verse like the above and simply look at the surface. Because if that were the case then there would be tons of verses that were "contradictory". God tells us that we must _study_ his word because the deep mysteries of Him are revealed by His holy spirit._"However, when He, the *Spirit* of truth, has come, *He* will *guide* you into *all truth*…He will take of what is Mine and *declare* it to you"_ (John 16:13-14).


So...heres a good explanation for that verse, first explaining verse 6, which says much the same thing. (From David Guziks commentary on www.blueletterbible.org NIV version)

*1 John 3:6*
*"No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him."*

*Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.*
a. *Whoever abides in Him does not sin*: Since _sin is lawlessness_, a disregard for God (1 John 3:4), and since Jesus came _to take away our sins_ (1 John 3:5), and since in Jesus _there is no sin_ (1 John 3:5), then to *abide in Him* means to *not sin*.
i. It is very important to understand what the Bible means - and when it does not mean - when it says *does not sin*. According to the verb tense John uses, *does not sin* means _does not live a life style of habitual sin_. John has already told us in 1 John 1:8 _If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us_. In 1 John 1:8, the grammar indicates John is speaking about occasional acts of sin. The grammar of 1 John 3:6 indicates that John is speaking of a settled, continued lifestyle of sin. John is not teaching here the possibility of sinless perfection.
ii. “The present tense in the Greek verb implied habit, continuity, unbroken sequence” (Stott); the NIV has the right idea when it translates these verbs with phrases such as _keeps on sinning_, _continues to sin_, and _he cannot go on sinning_.
b. *Whoever abides in Him does not sin*: John’s message is plain and consistent with the rest of the Scriptures. It tells us that a life style of habitual sin is inconsistent with a life of abiding in Jesus Christ. A true Christian can only be _temporarily_ in a life style of sin.
i. Paul’s teaching in Romans 6 is a great example of this principle. He shows us that when a person comes to Jesus, when their sins are forgiven and God’s grace is extended to them, they are radically changed - the old man is dead, and the new man lives. So it is utterly incompatible for a new creation in Christ to be comfortable in habitual sin; such a place can only be temporary for the Christian.
ii. In some ways, the question is not “do you sin or not?” We each sin. The question is, “How do you react when you sin? Do you give into the pattern of sin, and let it dominate your lifestyle? Or do you humbly confess your sin, and do battle against it with the power Jesus can give?”
iii. This is why it is so grieving to see Christians make excuses for their sin, and not humbly confess them. Unless the sin is dealt with squarely, it will contribute to a pattern of sin that may soon become their lifestyle - perhaps a secret lifestyle, but a lifestyle nonetheless.
iv. What is important is that we never sign a “peace treaty” with sin. We never wink at its presence or excuse it by saying, “Everybody has their own sinful areas, and this is mine. Jesus understands.” This completely goes against everything we are in Jesus, and the work He has done in our life.


*1 John 3:9 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."*
*Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him*: The change from being *of the devil* to being *children of God* comes as we are *born of God*; when this happens, our old nature, patterned after the instinctive rebellion of Adam, dies - and we are given a new nature, patterned after the instinctive obedience of Jesus Christ.
i. John here is simply emphasizing what it means to be _born again_. It means that a _change_ comes into our lives - it is a change that will be worked out into every area of our lives as we grown in Christ, but it is a real, observable change.
ii. It is the same message Paul preached, saying that as believers we are to _put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts_, and that we are to _put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness_. (Ephesians 4:22; 4:24)
d. *Does not sin . . . he cannot sin*: *Does not sin* and *cannot sin* each have the same verb tense as _does not sin_ in 1 John 3:6, meaning a continual practice of habitual sin. John tells us that when we are born again - born into the family of God - there is a real change in our relation to sin.


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## Shimmie (Apr 17, 2012)

Laela said:


> I take the Bible literally... and spiritually. Something that is literal is accurate and without exaggeration... I believe there was an actual Goliath and David knocked him out with a pebble. I believe Lot's  wife turned to a pillar salt. I believe there was a great flood and only Noah and his family survived. I believe Jesus healed all those folks and raised people from the dead...I believe every single Word.



  and Amein.....


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## Carolina18 (Apr 17, 2012)

Laela said:


> I take the Bible literally... and spiritually. Something that is literal is accurate and without exaggeration... I believe there was an actual Goliath and David knocked him out with a pebble. I believe Lot's  wife turned to a pillar salt. I believe there was a great flood and only Noah and his family survived. I believe Jesus healed all those folks and raised people from the dead...I believe every single Word.



This is interesting. Just so I understand you clearly, are you saying the examples you mention above are purely literal ones, or do they also have spiritual meanings, and if the latter, what are they?


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## aribell (Apr 17, 2012)

The Bible is wonderful.  I believe the events.  Why not?  I will tell you something, many people want to pit science against faith, but at the end of the day, many scientists end up creating their own fantasies about the universe to account for its mysteries.  Once they have come to the last equation and still that doesn't explain it, then they go into the "many worlds" hypothesis (alternate universes) and other things that sound like they came straight out of Star Trek.  I say that to say that what is in Scripture is no stranger or harder to believe than the reality of our universe as we know it.  

I also love how God used temporal events to convey spiritual realities as well.  Everything that happened to the Israelites symbolizes the life of the believer in Christ--coming out of the world and into God's promise.  At church this Sunday, the pastor was talking about how the first group the Israelites defeated when they entered Canaan were the Hittites, and that when he looked the name up, he learned that "Hittite" means "fear" in Hebrew (or really, "sons of terror").  So, in the natural, God was with the Israelites conquering the Promised land, but it was also a reflection of a spiritual reality that they had to (and we have to) destroy fear in order to carry out God's work.  And wasn't it fear that ultimately led that first generation to die in the wilderness instead of going in?  They were too afraid of the people they saw and wouldn't trust God?  

And then in the New Testament, what does Hebrews tell us, but that Satan keeps us in bondage through our fear?  Christ came to deliver those who "who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage."  (Hebrews 2:15)  The Israelites who died in the wilderness cowed at the prospect of death and perished in the wilderness, never actualizing their freedom from Egypt.  But the generation of Israelites that did enter in, they conquered "fear" first.  They followed Joshua--a Christ-figure--into the land.  

So it all fits together.  The stories are not just stories, not just historical events.  They are spiritual truths as well.  God knows what He is doing.


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## Carolina18 (Apr 17, 2012)

CoilyFields said:


> Poohbear
> I guess I should explain that when I say I take the Bible literally I mean that I believe the historical events and divine/miraculous acts written in it. That no part of the Bible is false. That the OT and NT are true accounts.
> 
> That does not mean that we take a verse like the above and simply look at the surface. Because if that were the case then there would be tons of verses that were "contradictory". God tells us that we must _study_ his word because the deep mysteries of Him are revealed by His holy spirit._"However, when He, the *Spirit* of truth, has come, *He* will *guide* you into *all truth*…He will take of what is Mine and *declare* it to you"_ (John 16:13-14).
> ...



I know your post was directed at Poohbear but could you explain the parts in blue above? When is sin habitual/a continued lifestyle? What is the cut-off point between occasional and habitual?


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## lilanie (Apr 17, 2012)

I believe all in the Bible to be the Truth...  As I learn in Christ ~ I will be better be able to discern what are the parables and whatnot.  Right now, I want to know who's who to whom and where did that happen...

God Bless y'all!


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## auparavant (Apr 17, 2012)

CoilyFields said:


> Lol! Care to expound?




Sorry, I'm just now seeing this.  Some of my learning/understanding is via Jewish tradition, which is the basis of catholicism, actually.  But, for example, Genesis (Bere****)...not literal.  It's narrative.  We don't know the "days" involved and how many millennia each one contained.  Events were not exactly stacked up precisely  according to the narrative in order to have it read literally.   Even Job was written as a moral teaching by Moses.  He didn't exist, exactly.  So, context is everything and so is sacred tradition. The early writings expound much on it...from the Talmud (Gemara and Mishnah) to the early Church fathers and even books that are canonized but not contained in some churches as well as those that haven't been canonized by Rome or Constantinople...think Ethiopian.  Since I believe in sacred tradition because it was handed down by Moses (oral law, not just written) and has provided the pattern of G-d's revelations to man, I realize that many others who do take the bible literally and are sola scriptura (scripture only minus sacred apostolic tradition) will not believe this.


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## CoilyFields (Apr 17, 2012)

Carolina18 said:


> I know your post was directed at Poohbear but could you explain the parts in blue above? When is sin habitual/a continued lifestyle? What is the cut-off point between occasional and habitual?


 
I can't speak for the author but when I think of habitual sin I am thinking of when we as believers give ourselves over to sin...meaning we are no longer resisting or even attempting to resist the presence of this particular sin in our lives. We welcome it and have settled in. We have ignored the grieving Holy Spirit to the point where we even feel very little guilt/shame when that sin is pointed out.

We have given reign to our flesh and, as a result, are no longer in right standing before God. (Not that we are no longer saved-though some do believe this-but we have forfeited the benefits of our salvation). 

_I_ believe that _embracing_ a _habitual_ lifestyle of sin(s) (and here I cannot put a number or timeframe or extent...thats between God and the person) should cause the person to question if they are really saved. Did they truly accept Jesus into their heart? Do they really believe in Him and their need for salvation? Or did they just go through the (e)motions as an insurance policy...from "possibly" burning in hell?


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## CoilyFields (Apr 17, 2012)

auparavant said:


> Sorry, I'm just now seeing this. Some of my learning/understanding is via Jewish tradition, which is the basis of catholicism, actually. But, for example, Genesis (Bere****)...not literal. It's narrative. We don't know the "days" involved and how many millennia each one contained. Events were not exactly stacked up precisely according to the narrative in order to have it read literally. Even Job was written as a moral teaching by Moses. He didn't exist, exactly. So, context is everything and so is sacred tradition. The early writings expound much on it...from the Talmud (Gemara and Mishnah) to the early Church fathers and even books that are canonized but not contained in some churches as well as those that haven't been canonized by Rome or Constantinople...think Ethiopian. Since I believe in sacred tradition because it was handed down by Moses (oral law, not just written) and has provided the pattern of G-d's revelations to man, I realize that many others who do take the bible literally and are sola scriptura (scripture only minus sacred apostolic tradition) will not believe this.


 
For clarification...are you saying that your basis for not taking the Bible literally is other Jewish and Catholic books that explain this? They explain that people like Job were fictional? What about the other things that Moses wrote? The flood, the exodus, red sea, manna from heaven etc? Are those not considered to have really happened?


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## Carolina18 (Apr 17, 2012)

CoilyFields said:


> I can't speak for the author but when I think of habitual sin I am thinking of when we as believers give ourselves over to sin...meaning we are *no longer resisting or even attempting to resist the presence of this particular sin in our lives*. We welcome it and have settled in. We have ignored the grieving Holy Spirit to the point where we even feel very little guilt/shame when that sin is pointed out.
> 
> We have given reign to our flesh and, as a result, are no longer in right standing before God. (Not that we are no longer saved-though some do believe this-but we have forfeited the benefits of our salvation).
> 
> _I_ believe that _embracing_ a _habitual_ lifestyle of sin(s) (and here I cannot put a number or timeframe or extent...thats between God and the person) should cause the person to question if they are really saved. Did they truly accept Jesus into their heart? Do they really believe in Him and their need for salvation? Or did they just go through the (e)motions as an insurance policy...from "possibly" burning in hell?



Ok, so does resisting a particular sin mean turning from it? Also, have you resisted sin every single time the Holy Spirit has admonished you about it?


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## CoilyFields (Apr 17, 2012)

Carolina18 said:


> Ok, so does resisting a particular sin mean turning from it? Also, have you resisted sin every single time the Holy Spirit has admonished you about it?


 
Yes/No. Nope.

Though we may resist a sin...we may not always be successfull. It may be a struggle.  

I can't put a number on it (as in how many times before it becomes habitual). Its more like a state of mind/heart. You have "partnered" with this sin. Allowing it to reign in your life. You have welcomed it in and entertained it gladly. You have made yourself a slave to this sin.


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## auparavant (Apr 17, 2012)

CoilyFields said:


> For clarification...are you saying that your basis for not taking the Bible literally is other Jewish and Catholic books that explain this? They explain that people like Job were fictional? What about the other things that Moses wrote? The flood, the exodus, red sea, manna from heaven etc? Are those not considered to have really happened?





I don't believe Mt. Sinai, the exodus nor the grand deluge are fictional.  Some stories are narrative and some are parables.  Everything has moral value.


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## Carolina18 (Apr 17, 2012)

CoilyFields said:


> Yes/No. *Nope.*
> 
> Though we may resist a sin...we may not always be successfull. It may be a struggle.
> 
> I can't put a number on it (as in how many times before it becomes habitual). Its more like a state of mind/heart. You have "partnered" with this sin. Allowing it to reign in your life. You have welcomed it in and entertained it gladly. You have made yourself a slave to this sin.



So, does that make you a habitual sinner, or have you not done it enough times for that sin to become habitual? I'm just trying to understand exactly how this works and where the scriptural backing for it is. How can one know whether they are a habitual sinner, and therefore, according to the stance taken in the article you posted, "not born of God" in 1 John 3:9? Is it mentioned somewhere in Scripture?


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## blazingthru (Apr 18, 2012)

naturalgyrl5199 said:


> *LADIES:*
> 
> Quick question. I would like feedback. (I have 2 Examples)
> 
> ...


 
I think that the purpose was to weed out the majority and so that few could apply for the position. I know that the scriptures say to being married is a choice. But the title Bishop/Deacon etc., should be for a certain type of person. 


Paul also says pointedly that elders are to be husbands; that is, men: “A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife” (1 Timothy 3:2). (Note: The terms bishop and elder are interchangeable.) “[Paul]* did not say that just any man could be a bishop*, even as in the Old Testament not just any son of Aaron could be a priest. The office has always been limited. The Christian leader Paul spoke of must be ‘blameless’ and married, ‘vigilant, sober, of good behavior,’ etc. There is a long list of requirements that eventually eliminates most men and leaves only a very few eligible.” Women aren’t the only ones who are ineligible to be elders and pastors; so are most of the men! 

Of course, every Christian, male and female, is called to minister in some capacity, but not in every capacity. “And He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ” (Ephesians 4:11, 12).

Woman and Being Silent

*2 Timothy 3:16*
King James Version (KJV)

16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

At first I think people might think its a mistake on Pauls part, but no as the text above All Scriputure is given by inspiration of God. 
*Galatians 3:28*

King James Version (KJV)

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


*1 Corinthians 11:3*
King James Version (KJV)

3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

My personal opinion, No I do not believe that woman should be leaders and head of the church not at all. I beleive that that duty should fall on Men, however, I do believe that Woman have special gifts that help build up the church I beleive that she can have a huge part in ministry even give the message but not to instruct men. but I base that on the scriptures. I do not wish for that role and cannot understand why any woman would, but then in our world some woman want to do mens jobs and I do not. I read in the scriptures that at times it required that woman fill the role of Leadership in times where men could or would not. But that is not God's design for woman. I don't meant to offend anyone I know there are female minister on board. I just think that is not God's plan base on the scriptures and I posted this information some time ago. Why I came to that conclusion. 

believe there are a number of women prophets in the Bible who are spirit filled, and in that respect they teach. But the word "elder" and "pastor" in the Bible specifically refers to ordination, and there's no example in the Bible anywhere of God ordaining a woman in the capacity of pastor or elder.

Two Jewish slaves, Amram and Jochebed, had three unique children. Their names were Miriam, the oldest; Aaron; then Moses. All three of the children were prophets, which is very unusual. Of course, Phillip had four daughters that were prophetesses. But only the boys, who were Moses and Aaron, could serve in the capacity of priest. Likewise, a man is supposed to be the priest of his family. This is something that God established in Eden, and it's still in effect today. 

It may or may not be the ideal, but we are living in a sinful world. In dealing with the sin issue, God established men to be the servant leaders in their families. The church is an extension of that. And I believe the men should be the servant leaders in ministry in the church. That doesn't mean that women should not teach and minister--they can even preach and do evangelism. But when a woman serves in the capacity of a pastor, it's priestly in nature. For instance, a pastor is the one who carries out the functions of the Lord's Supper. There's no example in the Bible of a woman doing that, so I feel strongly it is a biblical issue. 

I respect people who may disagree. But I cannot find solid support in any example in the Bible. For instance, they like to use the verse that says, "In Christ there is neither male or female." Yet in context, all this really means is that we all have, regardless of gender, equal access to God and equal access to heaven. But it never means that there's no distinction between men and women in ministry.


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## Poohbear (Apr 18, 2012)

Crown said:


> I said : literally and/or spiritually,
> but there is no contradiction with this verse.
> We are the work of God, in process and progress.
> 
> ...



Crown

All I did was post that verse. I did not explain it. It says what it says. 

To clarify some of the points you made:

I did not say nor imply that there was a contradiction with that verse.

I did not say nor imply that this is a fairy tale when it comes to faith and obedience.

Yes, we were created by God and He works in us. And I know Philippians 2:12 is commonly used to support this "It takes time" and "We're a work in progress" concepts, but we must really look at what that verse is saying withing the context of Scripture. When this verse says "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" it is not saying, "it's okay for a believer sin a little bit every now and then".

John 3:30 also does not touch on this "process" you are referring to. John 3:30 is in reference to John testifying about Jesus. Jesus is far above all, everything that is on this earth. He must be more prominent than ourselves. It's not saying anything about how often we sin or sin not.

2 Corinthians 3:18 says, "But *we all*, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, *are changed into the same image from glory to glory*, even as by the Spirit of the Lord."

Once something is changed, there's no longer a process. The process, whatever it may be, is done.

~~~~~

I would also like to know what your response would be to the question that Carolina18 asked CoilyFields in post #47.

Thanks in advance.


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## Poohbear (Apr 18, 2012)

CoilyFields

Yes, we must "study to shew thyself approved unto God" (2 Tim 2:15) and yes, there are mysteries of God that only the Spirit can speak and understand.

I posted this verse with no explanation. My intention was to get people to really think about what they are saying when they say, "I take the Bible literally."

And the David Guziks commentary that you posted is man's explanation, not God's.

No matter how you put it, sin is sin to God... whether it's habitual, deliberate, intentional, willingly, often, rarely, every now and then, "didn't mean to", occasional, continual, constant, remorseful, heartfelt, secret, public, etc. 

And I would really like to hear your response to Carolina18's post #47.

Thanks in advance.



CoilyFields said:


> Poohbear
> I guess I should explain that when I say I take the Bible literally I mean that I believe the historical events and divine/miraculous acts written in it. That no part of the Bible is false. That the OT and NT are true accounts.
> 
> That does not mean that we take a verse like the above and simply look at the surface. Because if that were the case then there would be tons of verses that were "contradictory". God tells us that we must _study_ his word because the deep mysteries of Him are revealed by His holy spirit._"However, when He, the *Spirit* of truth, has come, *He* will *guide* you into *all truth*…He will take of what is Mine and *declare* it to you"_ (John 16:13-14).
> ...


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## loolalooh (Apr 18, 2012)

delete


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## Crown (Apr 18, 2012)

Poohbear said:


> ~~~~~
> 
> I would also like to know what your response would be to the question that Carolina18 asked CoilyFields in post #47.
> 
> Thanks in advance.





Carolina18 said:


> So, does that make you a habitual sinner, or have you not done it enough times for that sin to become habitual? I'm just trying to understand exactly how this works and where the scriptural backing for it is. How can one know whether they are a habitual sinner, and therefore, according to the stance taken in the article you posted, "*not born of God*" in 1 John 3:9? Is it mentioned somewhere in Scripture?


God knows who is born of Him and who is not.
It's not my business!

 I don’t agree with the: it’s okay to sin a little bit every now and then.
I don’t believe in the habitual sin or occasional sin.
Sin is sin.
You have problem with this sin or you are delivered from this sin.
Depending on the person, some sin take more time than others to be eradicated. It’s a reality.

When God delivers His child from a sin: he is delivered.
But, this child did not have just one sin.

I am talking about:
Kingdoms of Self that must fall in order for Christ to reign.

As example, take the process of refinement, metals purification or the potter working on his clay.



We can not take a part of Heb. 10:26, we have to see the whole picture :
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning *after we have received the knowledge of the truth*, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

For me, the key of this verse is: the knowledge of the truth.
How many use it?

1Tim. 2: 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people *to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth*.

 2Tim. 2: 24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that *God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth*, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

 2Tim. 3: 7 *always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth*.

I see a process here:
The process begins with repentance and continues by learning, till one can say, from glory to glory, in its fullness:
Gal. 2: 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.


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## Carolina18 (Apr 18, 2012)

Crown said:


> God knows who is born of Him and who is not.
> It's not my business!
> 
> I don’t agree with the: it’s okay to sin a little bit every now and then.
> ...



Thanks for your response Crown and your observation regarding Hebrews 10:26. Would you consider yourself to have come to the knowledge of the truth?


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## Poohbear (Apr 18, 2012)

Crown said:


> God knows who is born of Him and who is not.
> It's not my business!
> 
> I don’t agree with the: it’s okay to sin a little bit every now and then.
> ...


Crown - I'm not talking about how long it takes to eradicate or get rid of sin. And you're right when you said, "we cannot take part of Hebrews 10:26," so let's just ponder on the whole verse of Hebrews 10:26:

*"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins..."*

Now, let's use a simple example:

Let's say you read in God's word "Thou shalt not bear false witness" (Exodus 20:16; Exodus 23:1; Deutoronomy 5:20) You have received this knowledge of truth that it is against God's law to bear false witness or to tell a lie. 

Now, after you receive this knowledge of truth, you decide to tell a lie...no matter what type of lie it is, no matter how long you've been a Christian, whatever the case may be... you tell a lie AFTER you have received the knowledge of truth.

Now because you have told a lie after receiving the knowledge of truth, you have sinned wilfully.  Wilful sin is when you commit a sin that you KNOW is wrong, regardless of how much you claim to love and know Jesus, no matter how often you go to church or read your bible or pray.

Now because you sinned wilfully by telling a lie after receiving the knowledge of truth that you should not bear false witness, there remains no more sacrifice for sins.

So what is this verse talking about when it says, "there remains no more sacrifice for sins?" Let's look at Hebrews 10:10-12...

"By the which will *we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all*. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: *But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever*, sat down on the right hand of God..."

Jesus is our sacrifice for sins once you confess and believe. He became the sacrifice for sins by shedding his blood and dying on the cross. The blood of bulls and goats could not take away our sins. Neither can the priests or ministers. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ is the only sacrifice that forgives sins.

So since this Hebrews 10:26 verse is saying that if we tell a lie after we know it is wrong, that sin is no longer forgiven. Telling a lie is just one example. We must see all sin in this way. Wilful sin regardless of what that sin is, how often you've done it, etc. is not forgiven.


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## CoilyFields (Apr 18, 2012)

Carolina18 said:


> So, does that make you a habitual sinner, or have you not done it enough times for that sin to become habitual? I'm just trying to understand exactly how this works and where the scriptural backing for it is. How can one know whether they are a habitual sinner, and therefore, according to the stance taken in the article you posted, "not born of God" in 1 John 3:9? Is it mentioned somewhere in Scripture?


 
Sorry it took so long but here goes... 

When the Bible speaks about the believer there are many things that are said that may seem contradictory. It is each believers job to study and seek God for understanding.

Premise 1: We have been reborn spiritually

John 3:3 "In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

1 Peter 1:23 "For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God."

2 Cor 5:17 "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"


Premise 2: We still commit sins...even after receiving salvation 

Romans 3:23   "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" 

1 John 1:8 "And if we shall say we do not have sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

Romans 7:18 "I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out."

There are many other scriptures that point out sins that Christians are committing (Many of Pauls letters address these issues _within_ the church). The Bible points out in 2 Tim 3:16 "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, *rebuking*, *correcting* and *training* in righteousness"
The words in bold suggest that something in the believers life is wrong and must be made right. 


The fact that we sin does not make the sins we may commit ok due to their inevitablity. But the fact is that our spirits are at war with our flesh. Galatians 5:17 "For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want."

Premise 3: Sanctification is the process by which premise 2 is reconciled with premise 1.

*1 John 3:9 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."*

We are reborn...and the previous scriptures show that we do, in fact sin, after having recieved salvation...but 1 John 3:9 says that if we're born again we won't continue to sin?

Either the Bible *contradicts* itself or there is an *explanation* for the above. Either I'm perfect after regenration or Im not.

2 Cor 5:21 "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

When we gave up our sin we were given Jesus' righteousness. This is our spiritual guarantee of no longer having to pay the ultimate penalty of sin (eternal seperation from God) BUT in the meantime we have work to do. Not the work of the cross (because Jesus already did that) but the work of conforming ourselves to the image of Christ...sanctification.

2 Cor 3:18 "And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit."

John 17:17 "Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth"

When we receive salvation the next step is the process of sanctification. We are admonished to resist sin and pursue good. Basically persevering toward the character of Christ.  But some believers do not pursue sanctification. They may just exist believing salvation is good enough...they may not want to put forth the effort...they may believe there is no rush...they may be untaught etc. 

There is a difference between a Christian who is pursuing holiness and one who has given themselves over to a sinful lifestyle. The fruit they produce, their relationship with God and (wo)men, the benefits of God etc. 

A person who has given themselves over to a sinful lifestyle is not abiding in God...is not knowing Him...is not working out their soul salvation...is not in right relationship with God. Haven't we all been there at some point? (The backslider, the sister overtaken in a fault etc.) I know i have. And thank God for His grace...giving me time to get it right (or even the desire to get it right!). But at some point of living a life _saturated (that is a life settled and satisfied)_ in sin the question should arise as to whether you (general you) are truly saved. (once again I cannot put a number on it because only God and that person know the true intent of their hearts to judge this)


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## CoilyFields (Apr 18, 2012)

Poohbear said:


> @Crown - I'm not talking about how long it takes to eradicate or get rid of sin. And you're right when you said, "we cannot take part of Hebrews 10:26," so let's just ponder on the whole verse of Hebrews 10:26:
> 
> *"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins..."*
> 
> ...


 
By your above explanation then 1 John 1:9 is untrue...or only applies to unbelievers. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." 

The power of Jesus' sacrifice was that it not only covered past and present sins, but also our _future_ sins (He just did not have to keep dying on the cross everytime we sinned like the priests had to keep standing and offering sacrifices.

Hebrews 10:29 explanation...

a. *For if we sin willfully*: To *sin willfully* is defined in Hebrews 10:29. It speaks of someone who has *trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace*. It is a knowing, deliberate rejection of Jesus’ great work for us on the cross.
i. *Sin willfully*: In a sense, _every_ sin is a “willful sin.” But here, the writer to the Hebrews speaks of something much more severe and relevant to these discouraged Jewish Christians who contemplated a retreat from a distinctive Christianity and a return to Judaism with its sacrificial system. This is turning your back on Jesus.
b. *There no longer remains a sacrifice for sins*: If _Jesus’_ sacrifice for sin is rejected, there remains _no other_ sacrifice that can cleanse.

If we do this sin of willfully abandoning the faith...we have eradicated the only sacrifice for sins (Jesus).


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Apr 18, 2012)

Here is what I also beleive ... 

2 Timothy 3:16-17 "*All *Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."


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## Crown (Apr 18, 2012)

Carolina18 said:


> Thanks for your response Crown and your observation regarding Hebrews 10:26. Would you consider yourself to *have come to the knowledge of the truth*?


Carolina18
I am learning and advancing by the grace of the Father.


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## Crown (Apr 18, 2012)

Poohbear said:


> @Crown - I'm not talking about how long it takes to eradicate or get rid of sin. And you're right when you said, "we cannot take part of Hebrews 10:26," so let's just ponder on the whole verse of Hebrews 10:26:
> 
> *"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins..."*
> 
> ...


Sorry, Hebrews 10:26 is not saying this.
This is why I prefer to study the whole context :
(I will skip on some verses, no need to be too long)

Heb. 10:26 If we *deliberately keep on sinning* after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire *that will consume the enemies of God*. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 *How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?*
35 *So do not throw away your confidence*; it will be richly rewarded. 
 36 *You need to persevere* so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.
38 And, “But *my righteous one will live by faith*. 
   And *I take no pleasure in the one who shrinks back*.”
 39 *But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed*, but to those who have faith and are saved. 

Paul is talking about some so called Christians who willfully reject the Faith to return to their old pleasures.

Remind of this:

Luke 9:62 Jesus replied, “*No one who* puts a hand to the plow *and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God*.”

Why would Christ say to His disciples:
Mk 14: 38 Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. *The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak*.”

And to His Church :
Rev. 3: 19 Those whom I love *I rebuke and discipline*. So be earnest and repent.

What child is reprimanded?


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## Carolina18 (Apr 18, 2012)

Crown said:


> Carolina18
> I am learning and advancing by the grace of the Father.



So, does that mean you have the knowledge of the truth, at least on those parts where you have been shown what is right and wrong by God, or are you not there yet at all i.e. you don't know the truth?


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## Crown (Apr 18, 2012)

Carolina18 said:


> So, does that mean you have the knowledge of the truth, at least on those parts where you have been shown what is right and wrong by God, or are you not there yet at all i.e. you don't know the truth?


It's not my first post in this forum and I said that I am learning and advancing.

What do you think?

And about you?


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## Carolina18 (Apr 19, 2012)

Crown said:


> It's not my first post in this forum and I said that I am learning and advancing.
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> And about you?



I'm not saying it is. I'm trying to understand whether "learning and advancing" means you are heading towards acquiring the knowledge of the truth and do not have it yet, or whether it means you have it, and are gaining more. Just trying to gain a better understanding of your response.  

I believe "having the knowledge of the Truth" is having the Holy Spirit who helps you understand the word of God, the truth, Jesus Christ, the things of God etc.:

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the *Spirit of truth*, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall *testify of me* (John 15:26)

Sanctify them through thy truth: *thy word is truth* (John 17:17)

Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; But have renounced the hidden things of *dishonesty* {untruth!}, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God *deceitfully* {untruth}; but by *manifestation of the truth* commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. But if our gospel be hid, it is *hid to them that are lost* {those without the knowledge of the truth, without the Holy Spirit, and thus unable to understand the gospel}: in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ {the truth}, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord {the truth!}; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the* knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ* (2 Cor 4:1-6)



Crown said:


> Sorry, Hebrews 10:26 is not saying this.
> This is why I prefer to study the whole context :
> (I will skip on some verses, no need to be too long)
> 
> ...



Ok, so those who wilfully rejected the faith to return to their old pleasures were not forgiven of that, in light of Hebrews 10:26?


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## Crown (Apr 19, 2012)

Carolina18 said:


> I'm not saying it is. I'm trying to understand whether "learning and advancing" means you are heading towards acquiring the knowledge of the truth and do not have it yet, or whether it means you have it, and are gaining more.


Today, I know more than yesterday and less than tomorrow.




> Just trying to gain a better understanding of your response.


 For what exactly?




> I believe "having the knowledge of the Truth" is having the Holy Spirit who helps you understand the word of God, the truth, Jesus Christ, the things of God etc.:...


 I agree with you.
But go and see out there: all is claiming to have the Holy Spirit.
It does not matter if I (or someone else) tell you: I have it!




> Ok, so those who wilfully rejected the faith to return to their old pleasures were not forgiven of that, in light of Hebrews 10:26?


Please, take the time to read the entire chapter, and you will have the answer.


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## Carolina18 (Apr 19, 2012)

Crown said:


> Today, I know more than yesterday and less than tomorrow.
> 
> For what exactly?




You mentioned earlier to Poohbear that we should also focus on the second element of Hebrews 10:26 ("the knowledge of the truth"). I agree, and from that verse, in order for Jesus to no longer be the sacrifice for sin, one must sin wilfully AFTER they receive the knowledge of the truth through the Holy Spirit. It appears now that the disagreement in this thread is over what constitutes "wilful sin" since, unless I am wrong, we believe we have the knowledge of the truth i.e. the Holy Spirit. 



Crown said:


> I agree with you.
> But go and see out there: all is claiming to have the Holy Spirit.
> It does not matter if I (or someone else) tell you: I have it!



Right, and that's why we rely on the Word. A witness must agree with scripture and we are commanded as follows:

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready *always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear*: Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ (1 Peter 3:15-16)

Please don't think I'm not looking for an unnecessary argument. I'm under the impression that the purpose of this forum is for us to reason with Scripture and seek the truth, and Hebrews 10:26 is understandably an emotive verse!



Crown said:


> Please, take the time to read the entire chapter, and you will have the answer.



Yes, I have read the chapter, and my reason for asking you to elaborate on what you said earlier is because I don't see the difference between those who commit the same sin after they have been reproved/ repented of it, and those who "willfully reject the Faith to return to their old pleasures." Is not sin after admonition/ repentance a return to your old pleasures?

To "despise" the law is to break it, to disobey it, to reject it. As God told David: "Wherefore hast thou *despised the commandment of the LORD*, to *do evil* in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon (2 Samuel 12:10). Also:

"Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Judah, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they have *despised the law of the LORD, and have not kept his commandments*, and their lies caused them to err, after the which their fathers have walked" (Amos 2:3-5).

Numbers 15:22-36 is instructive on this point, and ties in very well with Hebrews to elaborate on the issue of wilful sin:

And if ye have erred, and not observed all these commandments, which the LORD hath spoken unto Moses, Even all that the LORD hath commanded you by the hand of Moses, from the day that the LORD commanded Moses, and henceforward among your generations; Then it shall be, if *ought be committed by ignorance* without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour unto the LORD, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering.

And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it *shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance*: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their ignorance: And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; seeing all the people *were in ignorance*.

And if any soul sin *through ignorance*, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. And the priest shall make an *atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him*. Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

But the soul that *doeth ought presumptuously*, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Because he hath *despised* the word of the LORD, and *hath broken his commandment*, that *soul shall utterly be cut off*; his iniquity shall be upon him.

And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man *shall be surely put to deat**h*: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses."

Ok, back to Hebrews 10. I prefer to use the KJV, so I will re-paste verses 26-30:

"26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

 28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

The man who despised (broke) Moses' law was stoned to death, he died a physical death, which Hebrews 10:28 reminds us of. Verse 29 goes on to say that a much sorer punishment is in store for those who "do despite unto" or "despise" the Spirit of grace - those who disobey the Holy Spirit. What is a much sorer punishment than physical death? Spiritual death, no? 

So, when you have been admonished by the Holy Spirit for a sin you have committed (i.e. you have been made aware of your sin, you now know the truth, you are no longer ignorant of that sin) and you disobey the Holy Spirit by committing that sin again, you are despising the Spirit of grace. That is wilful sin. Where does that leave those who continue sinning despite being admonished by the Holy Spirit more than once not to?


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## Crown (Apr 19, 2012)

Carolina18 said:


> You mentioned earlier to Poohbear that we should also focus on the second element of Hebrews 10:26 ("the knowledge of the truth"). I agree, and from that verse, in order for Jesus to no longer be the sacrifice for sin, one must sin wilfully AFTER they receive the knowledge of the truth through the Holy Spirit. It appears now that the disagreement in this thread is over what constitutes "wilful sin" since, *unless I am wrong, we believe we have the knowledge of the truth i.e. the Holy Spirit*.


It's not just a one point, it's a learning journey.





> Please don't think I'm not looking for an unnecessary argument. I'm under the impression that the purpose of this forum is for us to reason with Scripture and seek the truth, and *Hebrews 10:26 is understandably an emotive verse*!


It is not, if you are taking it in context. I don't understand the _disagreement_. For a Christian, some sins are instantly eradicated and for some, it takes more time, although this person is aware about this sin.



> Yes, I have read the chapter, and my reason for asking you to elaborate on what you said earlier is because I don't see the difference between those who commit the same sin after they have been reproved/ repented of it, and those who "willfully reject the Faith to return to their old pleasures." Is not sin after admonition/ repentance a return to your old pleasures?


 I understand what you are saying, and believe me I am doing my best, trying to explain what is in my mind. Maybe, the real difference is who believes or not in predestination.

The difference between your belief and mine is that you take just one level on a person.

For a fervent Christian, this is WAR between the spiritual you (general) and the carnal you.
The battle won in the spiritual can take time to be manifested in the flesh.

But thanks God!
God knows his child who will be manifested as victorious and his enemy!

My life as a parent allows me to understand God, lol a little more.
He is our Father.
*Jane, why do you do this again? I told you: don’t do this! Was it not clear that you would not do this anymore?
*Yes, Father! You are right. I don’t know why I did it. I did my best to not fall again, but…
*Jane, you are my child and I love you. If you continue, I will crush you till you understand that I mean it: do not do this!
*Father, I am so needy, I am nothing without you. Oh Lord, help me!




> The man who despised (broke) Moses' law was stoned to death, he died a physical death, which Hebrews 10:28 reminds us of. Verse 29 goes on to say that a much sorer punishment is in store for those who "do despite unto" or "despise" the Spirit of grace - those who disobey the Holy Spirit. What is a much sorer punishment than physical death? Spiritual death, no?
> 
> So, when you have been admonished by the Holy Spirit for a sin you have committed (i.e. you have been made aware of your sin, you now know the truth, you are no longer ignorant of that sin) and you disobey the Holy Spirit by committing that sin again, you are despising the Spirit of grace. That is wilful sin. Where does that leave those who continue sinning despite being admonished by the Holy Spirit more than once not to?


 When I don’t understand something or I think that I understand and others think differently, I put it before the throne and I wait upon the Lord.
What I am saying is not important.
Only Him reveals the truth.


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## CoilyFields (Apr 19, 2012)

Carolina18 said:


> Yes, I have read the chapter, and my reason for asking you to elaborate on what you said earlier is because *I don't see the difference between those who commit the same sin after they have been reproved/ repented of it, and those who "willfully reject the Faith to return to their old pleasures." Is not sin after admonition/ repentance a return to your old pleasures?*
> 
> To "despise" the law is to break it, to disobey it, to reject it. As God told David: "Wherefore hast thou *despised the commandment of the LORD*, to *do evil* in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon (2 Samuel 12:10). Also:
> 
> ...


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## auparavant (Apr 19, 2012)

A side-question:


For those who don't believe in "hell," how do they explain the punishment for disobeying G-d and rejecting Him finally and totally?  Where will that occur?


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## Carolina18 (Apr 19, 2012)

CoilyFields said:


> To the 1st bolded:
> In Hebrews 10:26 you have to know that this letter is specifically to those who have are saying that they will *reject Jesus Christ as the Messiah* and go back to the Jewish faith (that still claimed the Messiah had not yet come). Thats the faith Paul is talking about. They have gone back to their old beliefs and have "eliminated" the ultimate sacrificial lamb. And if Jesus no longer fills that position then there is NO other worthy sacrifice left to give in atonement for sins.
> 
> As concerning David
> ...



I'm glad you brought that up, because what is key about David's sin was that he repented of it and did not commit it again. It is important to see what "wilful" is to God according to scripture, rather than relying on what WE think it is. Notice David's response in verses 5-6 to Nathan's story on the rich man's use of the poor man's sheep:

"And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the LORD liveth, the man that hath done this thing *shall surely die*: And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity." David adopted a response we would probably take: the rich man knew that act was wrong and did it, so it was wilful! Fortunately for David, God is more merciful than that but He has a clear limit. Let's see how Solomon responded to his admonition in 1 Kings 11:

1But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites:

 2Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall *not go in to them*, neither shall *they come in unto you*: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.

 3And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.

 4For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives *turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father*.

 5For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.

 6And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.

 7Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.

 8And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.

 9And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because *his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel*, which had appeared unto him *twice*,

 10And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he *kept not that which the LORD commanded*.

 11Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and *thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee*, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant.

 12Notwithstanding in thy days I will not do it for David thy father's sake: but I will rend it out of the hand of thy son."

Verse 9 says God admonished Solomon *twice* before rending the kingdom from him because he did not repent of that sin. David on the other hand confessed his sin and repented of it after his first admonition. And I believe two admonitions by God are the "space to repent" spoken of in Revelations 2:20-22:

"Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her *space to repent* of her fornication; and she *repented not*. Behold, I will *cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds*."

From Solomon's example, the "space to repent" we are given by God is "two admonitions". Failing to repent after *two* admonitions is wilful sin. That is when our heart is no longer right with God, and that is why believers are commanded thus:

"A man that is an heretick after the *first and second admonition* reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, *being condemned of himself*" (Titus 3:10-11)



CoilyFields said:


> To the 2nd bolded:
> Where does that leave them? Are you saying that this means that they are condemned now? Going to hell?



My point is, our belief must be based in scripture, including our definitions of sin. It doesn't matter what we think "wilful", or "those born of God do not sin" mean, if it is not backed up with concrete scriptural examples of how those things play out. That is the only way we can know that we are on the right path.

It is not scripturally correct to claim that all sin if wilful. Our ability to commit sin does not mean it is always wilful. The Numbers 15 verses I pasted in my response to Crown speak of sins done in "ignorance". Luke 23:34 says, "Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they *know not what they do*. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots."


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## Crown (Apr 19, 2012)

Carolina18 said:


> I'm glad you brought that up, because what is key about David's sin was that he repented of it and did not commit it again. It is important to see what "wilful" is to God according to scripture, rather than relying on what WE think it is. Notice David's response in verses 5-6 to Nathan's story on the rich man's use of the poor man's sheep:
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


In this case, how do you explain Matthew 18:21?

Mat. 18:20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.” 
21  Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, *how many times shall I  forgive my brother or sister who sins against me*? Up to seven times?”  22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, *not seven times, but seventy-seven times*.

And just before, the Messiah was saying : I am in the midst of who gather in my name, His Church, the ecclesia.
Note that Peter is not talking about anyone, he is talking about a brother (in the Greek, the word is adelphos : http://biblos.com/matthew/18-21.htm)

I am not excusing the sin of someone, it's not my purpose : I hate sin.
But, do you think that God expects of us what He will not do for us?



> My point is, our belief must be based in scripture, including our definitions of sin. It doesn't matter what we think "wilful", or "those born of God do not sin" mean, if it is not backed up with concrete scriptural examples of how those things play out. That is the only way we can know that we are on the right path.
> 
> It is not scripturally correct to claim that all sin if wilful. Our ability to commit sin does not mean it is always wilful. The Numbers 15 verses I pasted in my response to Crown speak of sins done in "ignorance". Luke 23:34 says, "Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they *know not what they do*. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots."


This is so true for all of us!


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## blazingthru (Apr 19, 2012)

auparavant said:


> A side-question:
> 
> 
> For those who don't believe in "hell," how do they explain the punishment for disobeying G-d and rejecting Him finally and totally? Where will that occur?


 

I am only responding to my statement not to anyone else, I personally didn't say that I didn't believe in hell.  It's not an existence now is what I was saying.  Please forgive if I jumped the gun 

 Hell is actually this entire earth at the End of the world. No one is in Hell and burning.  The Majority believes that right?  Based on what?  Hell more times then one in the bible mean the grave, which makes sense because that is what it really is when it completes its task it's just a grave.  but an any case hell most times in the bible really means the grave.  This would be a really good study if anyone is serious about finding the real meaning in the bible for its existence now.   I personally think it would be a great study to break down the scriptures that cause others to believe hell is in existence and that people are actually in it.  It would be full of way to many contradictions with other scriptures, I think it would be very interesting and helpful to my studies though.


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## Carolina18 (Apr 20, 2012)

Crown said:


> In this case, how do you explain Matthew 18:21?
> 
> Mat. 18:20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”
> 21  Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, *how many times shall I  forgive my brother or sister who sins against me*? Up to seven times?”  22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, *not seven times, but seventy-seven times*.
> ...



Hey Crown. I believe that verses on sin must be looked at in the context of Hebrews 10, 1 Kings 11, Numbers 15, 2 Samuel 12, Titus 3 etc. So, Jesus had to be talking about ignorant sin in order for His instruction to tie in with the other passages. Note that my previous post said, failing to repent after *two admonitions* is wilful sin, not *sinning twice*; the number of admonitions, not the number of times that sin is committed. The key is whether you have been admonished of a particular sin by the Holy Spirit on two occasions i.e. shown your fault clearly on both occasions and instructed to repent of it. God gives us a "space to repent" of it. [/QUOTE]

As you noted earlier, the process of being cleansed of sin is a gradual one, it does not happen at once, but the dividing line I see in the Bible is ignorant v wilful, not habitual v occasional or anything else. We are cleansed and forgiven of ignorant sins (those we have not been admonished of yet) continually, but not wilful sins. 



Crown said:


> This is so true for all of us!



I agree, and that is why I have been asking questions, and asking for scriptural examples of people's statements on what "sin" is. We can't just rely on what feels right to us or what we think is right if there is no scriptural backing for it, and I believe the answers we need are in the Bible.


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## LaFemmeNaturelle (Apr 20, 2012)

Hey Carolina18 forgive me if I just hazed over but I'm confused on whether or not you actually answered "the 2nd bolded" directly and with scripture. Does that mean, in your interpretation, that those who continue to willfully sin, whether it's after two or a million admonitions can no longer repent and will not inherit the kingdom?


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## Carolina18 (Apr 20, 2012)

LaFemmeNaturelle said:


> Hey Carolina18 forgive me if I just hazed over but I'm confused on whether or not you actually answered "the 2nd bolded" directly and with scripture. Does that mean, in your interpretation, that those who continue to willfully sin, whether it's after two or a million admonitions can no longer repent and will not inherit the kingdom?



Hi LaFemmeNaturelle. That is what I believe the scriptures I pasted above to be saying, in terms of *a* particular sin that one has been admonished of. I haven't found Biblical examples of believers who committed the same sin again after being admonished of it twice, repenting of it and being made right before God again. What is your take on 1 Kings 11? Is there an indication anywhere in the Bible of Solomon repenting of that sin and having a heart that was right before God again, as David's was?

My point is that our definitions of "sin" e.g. "those born of God should not sin" should be backed up by examples of those who were born of God in the Bible.


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## LaFemmeNaturelle (Apr 20, 2012)

Honestly, I do not debate on here. I am a medical student and do not have time for that. I ask questions to consider later on during my studies but I cannot just look things up on hand. It will probably be weeks before I have an answer for you. The only thing I can think of now is Luke 17 and I believe someone brought the point up earlier of why would God ask us to (and say that we MUST) rebuke and forgive our brother who sins against us and repents repeatedly when he does not do the same for us. My understanding of rebuke and admonish are that they are quite similar in definition. So we are expected to forgive the sins of others but God will no longer forgive us? I'm sure he too is forgiving that "brother" if he tells us that we should as well. Maybe I'm taking it out of context. I'll make a note to study it later.

Hopefully I don't sound like I'm dismissing you. I only check these forums during study breaks so I just don't have the time to really get into it.


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## Carolina18 (Apr 20, 2012)

LaFemmeNaturelle said:


> Honestly, I do not debate on here. I am a medical student and do not have time for that. I ask questions to consider later on during my studies but I cannot just look things up on hand. It will probably be weeks before I have an answer for you. The only thing I can think of now is Luke 17 and I believe someone brought the point up earlier of why would God ask us to (and say that we MUST) rebuke and forgive our brother who sins against us and repents repeatedly when he does not do the same for us. My understanding of rebuke and admonish are that they are quite similar in definition. *So we are expected to forgive the sins of others but God will no longer forgive us?* I'm sure he too is forgiving that "brother" if he tells us that we should as well. Maybe I'm taking it out of context. I'll make a note to study it later.
> 
> Hopefully I don't sound like I'm dismissing you. I only check these forums during study breaks so I just don't have the time to really get into it.



@the bold - I did not say that. 2 Samuel 12 clearly indicates that David was given a chance to repent of his sin after being admonished by God through Nathan. God IS forgiving, much more so than we are (as 2 Samuel 12:5-6 shows!), but 1 Kings 11 indicates that He also has a limit. I agree with Jesus' teaching about forgiveness. We are instructed as follows:

"Brethren, if a man be *overtaken in a fault*, ye which are spiritual, *restore such an one* in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted" (Galatians 6:1)

But we are also told:

A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject. Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself (Titus 3:10).

@the red - no worries. I'm getting quite busy myself and will likely not check this thread for a while, but if there is anything you find out later during your studies please PM me.


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## CoilyFields (Apr 20, 2012)

Carolina18



Carolina18 said:


> Verse 9 says God admonished Solomon *twice* before rending the kingdom from him because he did not repent of that sin. David on the other hand confessed his sin and repented of it after his first admonition. *And I believe two admonitions by God are the "space to repent" spoken of in Revelations 2:20-22:*
> 
> From Solomon's example, the "space to repent" we are given by God is "two admonitions". Failing to repent after *two* admonitions is wilful sin. That is when our heart is no longer right with God, and that is why believers are commanded thus:
> 
> ...


 

The scripture you gave is example of *Church discipline (titus)*. It spoke about those who were divisive in church and how to deal with them. It didnt say not to forgive them and welcome them back into right fellowship upon repentance. Another example of this would Matt 18:15-18
 " Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."

The scripture Crown gave was evidence of Jesus admonishing us to forgive constantly (regardless of weather willful or unwillful offences.)

Solomon was admonished twice and punished. That was him. *I dont see where this is established as Gods only standard to all.* Nor do I see where Solomons punishment meant that he was not forgiven. David suffered punishment as well. God gave Jezebel space to repent...it doesnt say he told her twice.  So labeling "willful" sin as something you commit after being admonished twice simply has no scriptural basis. God struck Ananias and his wife dead after having lied. Peter rebuked them...and God passed judgement. There was no space of two admonitions.


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## Carolina18 (Apr 20, 2012)

CoilyFields said:


> Carolina18
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It seems that much of our disagreement stems from semantics (KJV v NIV). For example, @ the first, bold, I take it you are looking at "heretick" in the sense of the NIV's "divisive"?  Rather than go into it, all I'll say is that a Google search on "heretic or divisive" would indicate that some believe (as I) that the NIV departs from the Greek meaning of that word to mean something that was not intended. 

@the second bolded, I have at least provided a scriptural example for the ignorant/ wilful sin distinction, and have seen none for your habitual v occasional distinction. And my point remains the same throughout. If God says "those born of God do not sin", He would clearly tell us how that sin works. It is not enough to simply believe what we think it says if there is no clear example supporting our interpretation of a particular scripture. 

I guess we will just have to disagree on these points. I won't be able to come on the Forum for a while, so I guess that's it from me. I've enjoyed the discussion.


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## Crown (Apr 20, 2012)

Carolina18 said:


> Hey Crown. I believe that verses on sin must be looked at in the context of Hebrews 10, 1 Kings 11, Numbers 15, 2 Samuel 12, Titus 3 etc. So, Jesus had to be talking about ignorant sin in order for His instruction to tie in with the other passages. Note that my previous post said, failing to repent after *two admonitions* is wilful sin, not *sinning twice*; the number of admonitions, not the number of times that sin is committed. The key is whether you have been admonished of a particular sin by the Holy Spirit on two occasions i.e. shown your fault clearly on both occasions and instructed to repent of it. God gives us a "space to repent" of it.
> 
> As you noted earlier, the process of being cleansed of sin is a gradual one, it does not happen at once, but the dividing line I see in the Bible is ignorant v wilful, not habitual v occasional or anything else. We are cleansed and forgiven of ignorant sins (those we have not been admonished of yet) continually, *but not wilful sins*.





Carolina18 said:


> Hi LaFemmeNaturelle. That is what I believe the scriptures I pasted above to be saying, in terms of *a* *particular sin that one has been admonished of*. I haven't found Biblical examples of believers who committed the same sin again after being admonished of it twice, repenting of it and being made right before God again. What is your take on 1 Kings 11? Is there an indication anywhere in the Bible of Solomon repenting of that sin and having a heart that was right before God again, as David's was?
> 
> My point is that our definitions of "sin" e.g. "those born of God should not sin" should be backed up by examples of those who were born of God in the Bible.


 I  wonder if you are not confounding punishment and forgiveness.

What is a particular sin? How do you define a particular sin?
The Bible tells us that sin is transgression of the law.

We are living in the time of Grace, is not failing to love God and to love your neighbor a sin, a wilfull sin?


Let’s look at the two great commandments:

Mat. 22: 37 Jesus replied: “‘*Love the* *Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind*.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘*Love your neighbor as yourself*.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

And another one:
Mat. 6: 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But *seek first* his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

How many times we sin against these commandments?
How many times the Father is saying to us : you are selfish or you are wasting my time, seek Me first or you have to die on your SELF?
How many times God have admonished each of His children and will continue to do so by His grace?

I have nothing more to add on this subject.


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## Poohbear (Apr 20, 2012)

Crown & CoilyFields 

I wanted to comment on the scripture in Matthews 18. I know you have made comments to my other posts that I have not addressed yet, but I just wanted to go through the whole context of this scripture about forgiveness in a civil manner, not to debate or argue, just to discuss, please take this into consideration.

I will start with verse 21: 

*21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.*


Right here we see where Jesus has instructed Peter to forgive a brother who sins against him seventy times seven, which we assume means over and over. But we must read further. Jesus did not stop there...


*23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.

25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.*

Right here we see Jesus giving us a parable about a servant owing 10,000 talents to this lord. This lord basically was saying if you don't pay, then you, your wife, children, and everything you have will be sold. But then this servant fell down and worshipped him offering to pay it all. So the lord decided to forgive his debt where he wouldnt have to pay it.  Then Jesus continues on with his parable:


*28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.

29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.*

Right here we see that the servant had a fellowservant of his own who owed him money. Only a hundred pence which is probably way less than ten thousand talents. The servant would not forgive his own fellowservant and decided to throw him into prison. This is after the lord had forgiven him of a greater debt.


*31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. *

Right here we see that someone told the lord what happened. He called the servant and questioned him about not forgiving his own fellowservant after he done forgave him. And then we see in verse 34 that the lord decided to make the servant pay his debt. It was no longer forgiven.

So in this parable, Jesus is really wanting us to show love and compassion to others. This is one of his greatest commandments. It's not that God will forgive you over and over for sin that you know is wrong (non-ignorant sin), but that God will not forgive you or show compassion on you if you do not forgive your brothers, neighbors, and people here on earth.

Let me know if you understand, need clarity, or if this makes any sense to you.

Sent via Android LHCF App


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## Galadriel (Apr 20, 2012)

blazingthru said:


> I personally think it would be a great study to break down the scriptures that cause others to believe hell is in existence and that people are actually in it.  It would be full of way to many contradictions with other scriptures, I think it would be very interesting and helpful to my studies though.



That would be interesting indeed, because most Christians in most times and places have always held that Hell exists, and that the souls of the damned are in it.


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## blazingthru (Apr 24, 2012)

Galadriel, if you want to start the thread I will certainly comment. But heres a warning it usually get shut down.  Why I never know.


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## Rainbow Dash (Apr 24, 2012)

blazingthru said:


> I am only responding to my statement not to anyone else, I personally didn't say that I didn't believe in hell. It's not an existence now is what I was saying. Please forgive if I jumped the gun
> 
> Hell is actually this entire earth at the End of the world. No one is in Hell and burning. The Majority believes that right? Based on what? Hell more times then one in the bible mean the grave, which makes sense because that is what it really is when it completes its task it's just a grave. but an any case hell most times in the bible really means the grave. This would be a really good study if anyone is serious about finding the real meaning in the bible for its existence now. I personally think it would be a great study to break down the scriptures that cause others to believe hell is in existence and that people are actually in it. It would be full of way to many contradictions with other scriptures, I think it would be very interesting and helpful to my studies though.


 

Hell exists now. The final judgement is when hell and death are cast into the lake of fire. All scriptural references to Hell cannot be just the grave, that would mean when believers die they go to hell. That is not biblical.

Look at this scripture:

*Revelation 20:13-15…*

*“And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”*

*2 Pet. 2:4, which reads thus: "God spared not the angels who sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment."*


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## blazingthru (Apr 24, 2012)

Health&hair28 said:


> Hell exists now. The final judgement is when hell and death are cast into the lake of fire. All scriptural references to Hell cannot be just the grave, that would mean when believers die they go to hell. That is not biblical.
> 
> Look at this scripture:
> 
> ...


 

In Both these cases HELL means the Grave. But I will elaborate later.


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## Laela (Apr 25, 2012)

blazingthru,

I have to ask... Where do you believe the spirit of an unrepentant sinner goes after he dies?


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## Crown (Apr 25, 2012)

Laela said:


> @blazingthru,
> 
> I have to ask... Where do you believe the spirit of an unrepentant sinner goes after he dies?


I am not blazingthru and I am not SDA, but :
 By saying spirit are you saying his emotions/personality..., what make him a living soul?

There is the body from the dust and the breath from God, all between are animated because of the breath of God. No breath, no living soul.

 Gen. 2 : 7And the LORD God formed man  of the *dust *of the ground, *and breathe*d into his nostrils the breath of  life; and man *became a living soul*. 

Eccl. 12: 7*Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it*.

Job 7: 7 Remember, O God, that *my life is but a breath*; my eyes will never see happiness again. 
8  The eye that now sees me will see me no longer; you will look for me, but I will be no more. 
9  As a cloud vanishes and is gone, *so one who goes down to the grave does not return*. 
10  He will never come to his house again; his place will know him no more.

Job 32: 8 *But it is the spirit in a person, the breath of the Almighty, that gives them understanding.*

Job 33: 4 *The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.* 
5  Answer me then, if you can; stand up and argue your case before me. 
6  I am the same as you in God’s sight; *I too am a piece of clay*.

Ps. 146: 3 Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save. 
4  *When their spirit departs(returns to God - see Eccl. 12.7), they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.* 5 Blessed are those whose help is the God of Jacob, whose hope is in the LORD their God.


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## Crown (Apr 25, 2012)

Meditation : Job 14.
Job 14:12 so he lies down *and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, people will not awake or be roused from their sleep*.  13 “If only you would hide me in the grave and conceal me till your anger has passed! If only you would set me a time and then remember me! 14 If someone dies, will they live again? All the days of my hard service *I will wait for my renewal to come*. 15 You will call and I will answer you; you will long for the creature your hands have made. 

If one has the Holy Presence of God in him, his breath is identified when departed from his body, if not : no identification.
All bodies are in the grave, awaiting/sleeping, dead.

But, human can be evil and have enough power to make things.

Hos. 13:14 “I will deliver this people *from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. Where, O death, are your plagues? Where, O grave, is your destruction? *


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## Rainbow Dash (Apr 25, 2012)

@Crown and @blazingthru

I see what you ladies are saying but what about Christ and the thief on the cross. How do you reconcile this with what you believe about Hell, Heaven and the souls of the dead?

And by the way, this is a great discussion. 

Luke 23:42-43

42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
43 *And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”*


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## Crown (Apr 25, 2012)

2 Chr. 18:18 Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing on his right and on his left. 19 And the LORD said, ‘*Who will entice Ahab king of Israel into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?*’     “One suggested this, and another that. 20 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, ‘I will entice him.’ 
   “‘By what means?’ the LORD asked. 
 21 “‘*I will go and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said. *
*   “‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the LORD. ‘Go and do it*.’ 
 22 “So now *the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours*. The LORD has decreed disaster for you.” 

An article for those who are seeking for truth (I don't know his denomination):
[FONT=&quot]http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d060101.htm
[/FONT]


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## Crown (Apr 25, 2012)

Health&hair28 said:


> @Crown and @blazingthru
> 
> I see what you ladies are saying but what about Christ and the thief on the cross. How do you reconcile this with what you believe about Hell, Heaven and the souls of the dead?
> 
> ...


Do you think that one verse translated a certain way can destroy all others?
Please, study this verse in its original: no comma!
http://biblelexicon.org/luke/23-43.htm


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## Rainbow Dash (Apr 25, 2012)

Crown said:


> Do you think that one verse translated a certain way can destroy all others?
> Please, study this verse in its original: no comma!
> http://biblelexicon.org/luke/23-43.htm


 

I looked at the verse in the original, it does not change how I interpret this verse. Some of those Hell scriptures may mean the grave but I do not believe that they all do. 

What about Elijah and Enoch, surely the Word tells us they are not in the grave, not unless I'm just missing something. 

When the LORD was about to take *Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind*, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal. 2 Kings 2:1

Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, *because God took him away.* Genesis 5:24

*By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death*; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. Hebrews 11:5

Others please chime in as well, 

Thanks


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## Crown (Apr 25, 2012)

Health&hair28 said:


> I looked at the verse in the original, it does not change how I interpret this verse. Some of those Hell scriptures may mean the grave but I do not believe that they all do.
> 
> What about Elijah and Enoch, surely the Word tells us they are not in the grave, not unless I'm just missing something.
> 
> ...


There is no contradiction in the Word.

From the Messiah:
Jn 3:11 Very  truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we  have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?13 *No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.*

From the apostles:
Actc 2:29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31  Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah,  that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see  decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33  Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the  promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 *For David did not ascend to heaven*, and yet he said,    “‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”’ 
 36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: *God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah*.” 

Acts 13:34 God raised him from the dead so that he will never be subject to decay. As God has said,    “‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings promised to David.’ 
 35 So it is also stated elsewhere: 
   “‘You will not let your holy one see decay.’ 
 36  “Now when David had served God’s purpose in his own generation, he fell  asleep; he was buried with his ancestors and his body decayed. 37 But *the one(Christ) whom God raised from the dead did not see decay*. 


Health&hair28, if you want to study, these articles can help you. If not, they can help someone else anyway.

http://www.truthontheweb.org/heaven.htm

http://www.truthontheweb.org/elijah.htm


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## Laela (Apr 25, 2012)

I believe there is the argument of whether the spirit and the soul are the same. I don't believe they are. We are triunal beings comprised of spirit, body and soul. Only God has the Breath of Life. When He breathed into man, his soul then became a LIVING soul. That means man's soul (his mind and part of his flesh) was dead. Do you believe the soul of man was formed with his body, before God breathed into it by adding His Spirit? I do. That is why we rely on the Holy Spirit to conform our minds to the mind of Christ. Our soul is corrupted or dead, without the Holy Spirit.

The Word of God is clear that we have three parts as humans, when Paul says:

1Thess 5:23
_And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ._


Only God can destroy the spirit, therefore, I asked where does the spirit of an unrepentant sinner goes. Yes, all of our spirits go back to God, as He is the one who gave it and can destroy it (dying in sin); but do you believe the spirits of those who belong to Him are going to the same place as the spirits of those who rejected Him? 

In Psalms 146:3, "they return to the ground" is the body returning to dust (the grave), after the spirit leaves it. .. so, where does the spirit go?





Crown said:


> I am not blazingthru and I am not SDA, but :
> By saying spirit are you saying his emotions/personality..., what make him a living soul?
> 
> There is the body from the dust and the breath from God, all between are animated because of the breath of God. No breath, no living soul.
> ...


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## Rainbow Dash (Apr 25, 2012)

*Luke 16 tells me that that the souls or spirits of the righteous and the ungodly are not in the same place...what I means is, their souls are not in the same place after death. *

*@**Laela** made a great point on the body, soul, and spirit. Body goes to the grave or back to the ground/dust but here in Luke 16, Jesus is letting us know that there are two different places after death. *



_22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; _
*23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. *

_24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. _

_25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: *but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. *_
_26And beside all this, between us and you *there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. *_


*Mark 9:43-44 Christ is not talking about the grave. Clearly this verse means hell, where there is fire and torment. *


_43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is *better for thee to enter into life maimed,* than having two hands to *go into hell*, *into the fire that never shall be quenched: *_

_44*Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched*. _

*Revelation tells us that hell and death are cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death. So hell and the lake of fire are not the same.*


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## Crown (Apr 25, 2012)

I am sure it is for someone.


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## blazingthru (Apr 25, 2012)

Laela said:


> @blazingthru,
> 
> I have to ask... Where do you believe the spirit of an unrepentant sinner goes after he dies?


 

Laela The bible refers to the spirit as the breath of life. 

its is not a being inside of you that comes out at death it is the very air in your nostrils. It has no thoughts, no feelings nothing it is the air. 

The sinner dies just like the saved person and remains in the grave. The saved person will arise when Jesus comes. The unrepentant will remain in the grave until the end of the 1000 years. I will edit this with the scripture.

Oh Crown has already provided the scriptures,  As for my personal beliefs I base my beliefs on the scripture not what I feel internally, because it means nothing. As of yet as long as I been posting I post scriptures because scriptures is what I base my faith on. There are no unique teachings in SDA at all. If there are I been a member for four years and have not heard it yet. 
*Those Who Died in Christ*

*13* But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. *14* For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep *[**k**]*in Jesus. *15* For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive *[**l**]*and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. *16* For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a *[**m**]*shout, with the voice of _the_ archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. *17* Then we who are alive *[**n**]*and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. *18* Therefore comfort one another with these words.

How can we ignore that scripture. The bible is design for studying. We are to break difficult passages down. it helps to already be confident in what you have already learned about the character of God and that is he is a loving and kind God. He will not have no one suffer in HELL forever and ever for offense that do not equal the punishment. It doesn't make any sense and insults our God. Eternal life is a gift. Why, would God give a sinner eternal life. HE wouldn't. He says in John 3:16*16* “For God so loved the world, that He gave His *[**a**]*only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.  it is a gift eternal life. Those who do not believe and believe doesn't mean to just beleive but to follow and obey, but those who do not believe will PERISH. 

Okay so we know these two things, we can begin to break the difficult passages or passages that seem to contridict down.


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## blazingthru (Apr 25, 2012)

Health&hair28 said:


> *Luke 16 tells me that that the souls or spirits of the righteous and the ungodly are not in the same place...what I means is, their souls are not in the same place after death. *
> 
> *@**Laela** made a great point on the body, soul, and spirit. Body goes to the grave or back to the ground/dust but here in Luke 16, Jesus is letting us know that there are two different places after death. *
> 
> ...


 

Health&hair28, you can't based this belief on a parable.  I understand these passages very well. It has more then face value meaning.  

Forever and Eternal do not always mean the same in the bible. It means an end of something. in some passages when it says Eternal Fire its a fire that cannot be put out until it completes its task.  In Hell which will be the earth by the way. THe fire cannot be put out until it completes the mission. It will burn until the object is no more then just ash, and the saints will walk on it.  

Hell in this text is the Grave, Hell means the grave. It and death will be thrown in the lake of fire. Which just means it shall never rise again. there will never come a time where death will have a foothold and there will never ever be a fear of the grave. it will no longer exist. 

Okay each passage about a subject must be compared to every other passage on the subject in the Bible. So I will try to do this as carefully as I can because I know that this is important.


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## Rainbow Dash (Apr 25, 2012)

blazingthru said:


> @Health&hair28, you can't based this belief on a parable. I understand these passages very well. It has more then face value meaning.
> 
> Forever and Eternal do not always mean the same in the bible. It means an end of something. in some passages when it says Eternal Fire its a fire that cannot be put out until it completes its task. In Hell which will be the earth by the way. THe fire cannot be put out until it completes the mission. It will burn until the object is no more then just ash, and the saints will walk on it.
> 
> ...


 
Why was He tormented in the grave? The rich man was tormented and the begger was comforted. 

Could the scriptures you posted mean that the bodies are raised and that they are changed? Paul said, "we shall all be changed." Meaning bodies changed from corruption to incorruption. He did say it was a mystery. 

Anyway, I appreciate this discussion, so thanks for your time.


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## blazingthru (Apr 25, 2012)

The dead do not praise the LORD, Nor any who go down into silence” (Psalm 115:17).

This tells us that death brings silence, and not praise, for God. Wouldn’t you praise God if you were in His presence in heaven?

“[A man’s] spirit departs, he returns to his earth; In that very day his plans perish” (Psalm 146:4).

Our plans do not continue beyond the grave because death means the cessation of life. Life stops at death.

“For in death there is no remembrance of [God]; In the grave who will give You thanks?” (Psalm 6:5).

How can we not remember God if we are with Him each day?

“For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth” (Isaiah 38:18).

Death holds no thanks, praise, or hope for God.

“Yet he shall be brought to the grave, And a vigil kept over the tomb” (Job 21:32).

The dead go to the grave and stay there.

“For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun” (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6).

This speaks for itself, doesn’t it?

“Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going” (Ecclesiastes 9:10).

The Bible is overwhelmingly clear that death means death. When we die, we return to the same state of consciousness we had before we were born: none.

*Job 14:10–12 (KJV 1900)*
10  But man dieth, and wasteth away: 
Yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? 
11  As the waters fail from the sea, 
And the flood decayeth and drieth up: 
12  So man lieth down, and riseth not: 
Till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, ..

“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also” (John 14:1–3).

So Christ tells us that when He returns to Earth, He will raise the dead and bring them to heaven with Him, so everyone can be together in a land with no more death. The Bible describes Christ’s return by saying, “The stars of heaven fell to the earth, and the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up” (Revelation 6:13, 14). The heavens, as we know them, will be no more, and life will never be the same again.

Death might be a sleep of unconsciousness, but it is only temporary. For those who trust in God to keep His promises, eternal life without death awaits.

*John 5:28 (KJV 1900)*
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,  WHen Jesus comes the second time he will call the saved out of their graves. Those who are alive will see Jesus and be transformed but not before those in the graves. 
 verse 17, saying, “Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”
*1 Corinthians 15:51 (KJV 1900)*
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed


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## blazingthru (Apr 25, 2012)

Health&hair28 said:


> Why was He tormented in the grave? The rich man was tormented and the begger was comforted.
> 
> Could the scriptures you posted mean that the bodies are raised and that they are changed? Paul said, "we shall all be changed." Meaning bodies changed from corruption to incorruption. He did say it was a mystery.
> 
> Anyway, I appreciate this discussion, so thanks for your time.


It is a parable, here is the explanation

 Christ is speaking to the Pharisees. The Pharisees believed and taught many things that were not according to the Scriptures. Among them was that the Jews, upon their death, would go to Abraham’s bosom to live in paradise. This version of the belief in an immortal soul had its roots in the kingdom of Babylon, not in the Scriptures, and was not universally accepted by the Jewish people. (The Sadducees, another leading religious group, disbelieved in any resurrection at all.) Therefore, because Christ was speaking specifically to the Pharisees, He used their own language to emphasize His point.

The Pharisees also viewed earthly wealth as a sign of God’s favor. Thus, when Christ told the story about the rich man going to hell while the beggar found comfort in heaven, He was directly attacking this idea. In combination with the language of Abraham’s bosom, the Pharisees knew exactly what Christ meant: that the Pharisees were incorrect in their traditions, understandings, and teachings.

Christ repeatedly drew His listeners’ attention back to the Old Testament Scriptures (John 5:39, Matthew 22:29, Luke 24:27). Therefore, we should look at the abundance of Scriptural evidence that supports the sleep of death while awaiting the resurrection to draw our conclusions about death, rather than a single story that is illogical unless understood as a parable. Additionally, Christ Himself taught that the dead sleep in their graves until they hear His voice (John 5:25).

It is clear, then, that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus does not support the idea of immediate life in heaven or hell after death.


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## Crown (Apr 25, 2012)

Laela said:


> I believe there is the argument of whether the spirit and the soul are the same. I don't believe they are. We are triunal beings comprised of spirit, body and soul. Only God has the Breath of Life. When He breathed into man, his soul then became a LIVING soul. That means man's soul (his mind and part of his flesh) was dead. Do you believe the soul of man was formed with his body, before God breathed into it by adding His Spirit? I do. That is why we rely on the Holy Spirit to conform our minds to the mind of Christ. Our soul is corrupted or dead, without the Holy Spirit.
> 
> The Word of God is clear that we have three parts as humans, when Paul says:
> 
> ...


Let's return to the original :

http://biblos.com/1_thessalonians/5-23.htm

Spirit is the word pneuma, the breath of life.
Soul is the word psyché, what you are, you personality, emotions...
Body is the word soma (we agree with that).

No pneuma, no psyché (well... sleeping).

An animal is also a living soul, nephesh.

Let me post this again. Please take the time to read this article.

The pagan immortal soul and double doctrine:
[FONT=&quot]http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d060101.htm[/FONT]


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## blazingthru (Apr 25, 2012)

Health&hair28 said:


> Why was He tormented in the grave? The rich man was tormented and the begger was comforted.
> 
> Could the scriptures you posted mean that the bodies are raised and that they are changed? Paul said, "we shall all be changed." Meaning bodies changed from corruption to incorruption. He did say it was a mystery.
> 
> Anyway, I appreciate this discussion, so thanks for your time.


 

Well, we know that we really do not feel up to talking to anyone if we are in torment, here they are having a dialogue really?  Also he asked for a drop of water, what is that? It does nothing to quench anyone's thirst.  This one of the reasons why we know this is not a true story.  In any case, the rich man is the Jew, and the beggar is the gentile it means that the begger will finally get the knowledge of God, he so desperately needs and the rich man will no longer have that title of Gods chosen people. 

When Jesus comes those who are saved will put on incorruptable. not those who are lost. Those who are lost will remain in the grave and its a sad day for those who are alive and are lost,  for they will all die and lie where they are for 1000 years. but I will get to that later.  

Matt 13:40  tell us that the lost will be reserved until the end of the world. 
*Matthew 13:36-43*

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

*The Tares Explained*

*36* Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the *[**a**]*tares of the field.” *37* And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, *38* and the field is the world; and _as for_ the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil _one_; *39* and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the *[**b**]*end of the age; and the reapers are angels. *40* So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the *[**c**]*end of the age. *41* The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom *[**d**]*all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, *42* and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. *43* Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, *[**e**]*let him hear. 

*John 12:48*
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

*48* He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.  
The wages of sin is death;" (not everlasting life in hell-fire) "but the gift of God is eternal life." And so the wages of sin is death. It is not everlasting life in fire. It is not everlasting life in heaven. It is not everlasting life in purgatory. It is not everlasting life in hell. It is not everlasting life at all. It is not life of any kind, any fashion, any where, any time, any place. It is the opposite of life-death. And that's the punishment that the wicked receive-death.


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## Crown (Apr 25, 2012)

Health&hair28 said:


> *Why was He tormented in the grave? The rich man was tormented and the begger was comforted. *
> 
> Could the scriptures you posted mean that the bodies are raised and that they are changed? Paul said, "we shall all be changed." Meaning bodies changed from corruption to incorruption. He did say it was a mystery.
> 
> Anyway, I appreciate this discussion, so thanks for your time.


You can not take a parable and ignore what the scriptures say.

The Messiah himself said : no one.

Dan. 12:1And at that time shall  Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of  thy people: *and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was  since there was a nation even to that same time*: and at that time *thy  people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the  book. * 2And *many of  them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake*, some to  everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 
 3*And  they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and  they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. *

13But go thou thy *way till the end be*: *for thou shalt rest*, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.


1 Thes. 4: 15For this we say unto  you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the  coming of the Lord *shall not prevent them which are asleep. *
 16For  the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice  of the archangel, and with the trump of God: *and the dead in Christ  shall rise first*: 
 17Then  we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in  the clouds, *to meet the Lord in the air*: *and so shall we ever be with  the Lord*. 


No one meets the Lord before another one.


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## Rainbow Dash (Apr 25, 2012)

Crown said:


> You can not take a parable and ignore what the scriptures say.
> 
> The Messiah himself said : no one.
> 
> ...


 

Crown,

I'm not ignoring, I trying to reconcile them all...

Making sure I understand you....

Are saying no one is in heaven or hell at this time? 

All the dead are in the grave awaiting judgement (hell, lake of fire) or resurrection unto life (heaven)?

If so I understand...


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## Crown (Apr 25, 2012)

Health&hair28 said:


> Crown,
> 
> I'm not ignoring, I trying to reconcile them all...
> 
> ...


Halleluyah!
Praise the Lord!


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## Rainbow Dash (Apr 25, 2012)

Crown said:


> Halleluyah!
> Praise the Lord!


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## blazingthru (Apr 25, 2012)

Laela said:


> I believe there is the argument of whether the spirit and the soul are the same. I don't believe they are. We are triunal beings comprised of spirit, body and soul. Only God has the Breath of Life. When He breathed into man, his soul then became a LIVING soul. That means man's soul (his mind and part of his flesh) was dead. Do you believe the soul of man was formed with his body, before God breathed into it by adding His Spirit? I do. That is why we rely on the Holy Spirit to conform our minds to the mind of Christ. Our soul is corrupted or dead, without the Holy Spirit.
> 
> The Word of God is clear that we have three parts as humans, when Paul says:
> 
> ...


 
The spirit is the Breath of life and the soul is the same as the body, it is not separate from the body.  it is connected to the body

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.



All man not just the saved but all man's spirit or breath returns to God.

Job 27:3 (KJV)
3 All the while my breath _is_ in me, 
And the spirit of God _is_ in my nostrils;



the body and soul are the same, just that with the breath in it it becomes a living soul
Genesis 2:7 (KJV 1900)
7 And the Lord God formed man _of_ the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. 



Ecclesiastes 3:19 
19 For the fate of people and the fate of animals is the same. z As one dies, so dies the other; they all have the same breath. People have no advantage over animals since everything is futile. 

"spirit," is used 948 times in the Scripture and yet not one time is it ever shown to have life, personality, feeling, wisdom; nor is it ever given any attributes of personality.

 BODY + BREATH = SOUL

Now I understand that some believe that the soul never dies, but God said it does. he says the souls that sins will die. 

Ezekiel 18:20 (KJV)
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 






Psalm 104:29 (KJV)
29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: 
Thou takest away their breath, they die, 
And return to their dust.


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## blazingthru (Apr 25, 2012)

Enoch, Elijah and Moses are in heaven, But they are there for specific reasons.  Enoch walked with God. He spent all of his time with God. God took him. We assume he is in heaven. I don't know that text by heart. I will have to look at it again, but for now I believe he is in heaven.  Elijah the Prophet is in heaven. He represents those who will never see death. Moses represent the Law, and those who have died and were resurrected.  Moses is the great
lawgiver, and Elijah is the greatest of the Old Testament prophets. Again this is from memory, When Jesus died didn't the graves open. I believe that those who were resurrected also ascended to heaven when Jesus returned.  It's not determined for us to really know who is in heaven or not, but to know that we have a appointment  where we all we go to heaven at the same time.


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## Crown (Apr 25, 2012)

blazingthru said:


> Enoch, *Elijah and Moses are in heaven, But they are there for specific reasons.*  Enoch walked with God. He spent all of his time with God. God took him. We assume he is in heaven. I don't know that text by heart. I will have to look at it again, but *for now I believe he is in heaven*.*  Elijah the Prophet is in heaven*. He represents those who will never see death. Moses represent the Law, and those who have died and were resurrected.  Moses is the great
> lawgiver, and Elijah is the greatest of the Old Testament prophets. Again this is from memory, When Jesus died didn't the graves open. I believe that those who were resurrected also ascended to heaven when Jesus returned.  It's not determined for us to really know who is in heaven or not, but to know that we have a appointment  where we all we go to heaven at the same time.


Are you saying that some people know better than the Word of God made flesh?
The Word of God in heaven did not know about Elijah, Moses and Enoch in heaven. Is it what you are saying?

Do you have another_ interpretation_ for this scripture from the Word of God:

Jn 3:13 *No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.*

Please, don't pick up Mat. 18, it's a vision.


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## Galadriel (Apr 25, 2012)

The Latin infernus (inferum, inferi), the Greek Hades, and the Hebrew sheol correspond to the word hell. Infernus is derived from the root in; hence it designates hell as a place within and below the earth. Haides, formed from the root fid, to see, and a privative, denotes an invisible, hidden, and dark place; thus it is similar to the term hell. The derivation of sheol is doubtful. 

It is generally supposed to come from the Hebrew root meaning, "to be sunk in, to be hollow"; accordingly it denotes a cave or a place under the earth. In the Old Testament (Septuagint hades; Vulgate infernus) sheol is used quite in general to designate the kingdom of the dead, of the good (Genesis 37:35) as well as of the bad (Numbers 16:30); it means hell in the strict sense of the term, as well as the limbo of the Fathers. But, as the limbo of the Fathers ended at the time of Christ's Ascension, hades (Vulgate infernus) in the New Testament always designates the hell of the damned.

Since Christ's Ascension the just no longer go down to the lower world, but they dwell in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:1). However, in the New Testament the term Gehenna is used more frequently in preference to hades, as a name for the place of punishment of the damned. Gehenna is the Hebrew gê-hinnom (Nehemiah 11:30), or the longer form gê-ben-hinnom (Joshua 15:8), and gê-benê-hinnom (2 Kings 23:10) "valley of the sons of Hinnom". Hinnom seems to be the name of a person not otherwise known. The Valley of Hinnom is south of Jerusalem and is now called Wadi er-rababi. It was notorious as the scene, in earlier days, of the horrible worship of Moloch. For this reason it was defiled by Josias (2 Kings 23:10), cursed by Jeremias (Jeremiah 7:31-33), and held in abomination by the Jews, who, accordingly, used the name of this valley to designate the abode of the damned (Targ. Jon., Gen., iii, 24; Henoch, c. xxvi). And Christ adopted this usage of the term. 

Besides Hades and Gehenna, we find in the New Testament many other names for the abode of the damned. It is called "lower hell" (Vulgate tartarus) (2 Peter 2:4), "abyss" (Luke 8:31 and elsewhere), "place of torments" (Luke 16:28), "pool of fire" (Revelation 19:20 and elsewhere), "furnace of fire" (Matthew 13:42, 50), "unquenchable fire" (Matthew 3:12, and elsewhere), "everlasting fire" (Matthew 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7), "exterior darkness" (Matthew 7:12; 22:13; 25:30), "mist" or "storm of darkness" (2 Peter 2:17; Jude 13). The state of the damned is called "destruction" (apoleia, Philippians 3:19 and elsewhere), "perdition" (olethros, 1 Timothy 6:9), "eternal destruction" (olethros aionios, 2 Thessalonians 1:9), "corruption" (phthora, Galatians 6:8), "death" (Romans 6:21), "second death" (Revelation 2:11 and elsewhere).

(Source, Catholic Encyclopedia online)


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## Galadriel (Apr 25, 2012)

blazingthru said:


> Enoch, Elijah and Moses are in heaven, But they are there for specific reasons.  Enoch walked with God. He spent all of his time with God. God took him. We assume he is in heaven. I don't know that text by heart. I will have to look at it again, but for now I believe he is in heaven.  Elijah the Prophet is in heaven. He represents those who will never see death. Moses represent the Law, and those who have died and were resurrected.  Moses is the great
> lawgiver, and Elijah is the greatest of the Old Testament prophets. Again this is from memory, When Jesus died didn't the graves open. I believe that those who were resurrected also ascended to heaven when Jesus returned.  It's not determined for us to really know who is in heaven or not, but to know that we have a appointment  where we all we go to heaven at the same time.



I still don't understand the basis upon which you're saying we die, "sleep" in our graves and don't go to Heaven (or Hell) until the Final Judgment. This is what you're saying, correct? (Sorry if I seem dense, but just wanted to understand your POV better).


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## Laela (Apr 26, 2012)

Blazin', there is NO VOID in God. The earth was without form and void until God breathed life into it. How can anything that has the essence of God in it be "nothing" if it's living?? 

I agree thoughts/feelings or emotions are physical aspects - controlled by the mind. But the spirit is not just a puff of air, or nothingness, as it came from God.

Maybe you can elaborate more on this... so I get what you're saying? Because I'm not getting it 




blazingthru said:


> @Laela The bible refers to the spirit as the breath of life.
> 
> its is not a being inside of you that comes out at death it is the very air in your nostrils. It has no thoughts, no feelings *nothing it is the air. *


 


And don't discount the importance of the Holy Spirit in understanding Scripture...we cannot study God's Word and get full knowledge/understanding just only our intellect...there is revelation knowledge via the Holy Spirit that we get in our "knower". Jesus says he who has ears to hear, let him hear and that means spiritually. Abiding in the spirit isn't the same as being emotional - where do folks get this? Anyway, I respect your opinion and agree that we are to study the Word to show ourselves approved...by God, not man. He is the one we must please.


blazingthru said:


> How can we ignore that scripture. The bible is design for studying. We are to break difficult passages down. it helps to already be confident in what you have already learned about the character of God and that is he is a loving and kind God. He will not have no one suffer in HELL forever and ever for offense that do not equal the punishment. It doesn't make any sense and insults our God. Eternal life is a gift. Why, would God give a sinner eternal life. HE wouldn't. He says in John 3:16*16* “For God so loved the world, that He gave His *[**a**]*only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.  it is a gift eternal life. Those who do not believe and believe doesn't mean to just beleive but to follow and obey, but those who do not believe will PERISH.
> 
> Okay so we know these two things, we can begin to break the difficult passages or passages that seem to contridict down.


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## blazingthru (Apr 26, 2012)

Crown said:


> Are you saying that some people know better than the Word of God made flesh?
> The Word of God in heaven did not know about Elijah, Moses and Enoch in heaven. Is it what you are saying?
> 
> Do you have another_ interpretation_ for this scripture from the Word of God:
> ...


 
Crown I don't understand your question. Elijah and Moses are in heaven. Please help me to understand your question. 

*2 Kings 2:11*

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

11 As they were going along and talking, behold, _there appeared_ a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a [a]whirlwind to heaven. 

*Jude 1:9*

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

9 But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you
*Luke 9:28-37*

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

*The Transfiguration*

28 Some eight days after these sayings, He took along Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray. 29 And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing _became_ white _and_ [a]gleaming. 30 And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah, 31 who, appearing in [b]glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. 32 Now Peter and his companions had been overcome with sleep; but when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men standing with Him. 33 And as [c]these were leaving Him, Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good for us to be here; let us make three [d]tabernacles: one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah”—not realizing what he was saying. 34 While he was saying this, a cloud [e]formed and _began_ to overshadow them; and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. 35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, _My_ Chosen One; listen to Him!” 36 And when the voice [f]had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent, and reported to no one in those days any of the things which they had seen. 

You can't discount the scripture above as just a vision, this is two fold, first Elijah and Moses cannot be in heaven without Jesus going to the cross. So they came to encourage Jesus to complete the task, they wanted to remain where they were, In addition to that, God is confirming with two witnessess, the prophet and the lawgiver, that Jesus is his son etc., Don't confused these two with the witnessess in revelations thats not actual human beings. its the old and new testament or the 1-2 testament.


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## blazingthru (Apr 26, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> I still don't understand the basis upon which you're saying we die, "sleep" in our graves and don't go to Heaven (or Hell) until the Final Judgment. This is what you're saying, correct? (Sorry if I seem dense, but just wanted to understand your POV better).


 
Yes death is sleep nothing more, its a dreamless sleep. You do not go to heaven or hell that is reserved until the end of the world, well those who are perishing. I posted all of this above. 

Jesus will return to bring those in Christ to heaven with him. the purpose of this is to review the books. Heaven is not an eternal place, God says he will create a new heaven and a new earth so its just temporary. Actually 1000 years. Then the New City of Jerasaleum will come down from heaven and rest on this what will become flat land. All of the unsaved will arise and plan to war against the city. 
*The New Heaven and Earth*

1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer _any_ sea. ( this is after judgement) 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will [a]dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them


*Revelations 20:11 *

*Judgment at the Throne of God*

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose [g]presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and [h]books were opened; and another [i]book was opened, which is _the book_ of life; and the *dead were judged from the things which were written in the [j]books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. **Notice this says the dead. not those in heaven, not those that jesus made alive again and brought to heaven with hin, but the dead.*

Revelation 20
*Satan Bound*

1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain [a]in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a *thousand years*; (Symbolic) 3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut _it_ and sealed _it_ over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the *thousand years were completed*; after these things he must be released for a short time. 
4 *Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of [b]their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years*. 5 The *rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.* *This is the first resurrection*. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. 

*Satan Freed, Doomed*

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the [c]seashore. 9 *And they came up on the [d]broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the [e]saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. (hence the earth will actually become a large grave for the lost and satan and his angels this entire earth will be consumed with fire. that is HELL, the city will be in the midst of it.) *

The Bible says the wicked suffer "death" (Romans 6:23), will suffer "destruction" (Job 21:30), "shall perish" (Psalms 37:20), will "burn" up (Malachi 4:1), "shall be destroyed together" (Psalms 37:38), will "consume away" (Psalms 37:20), "shall be cut off" (Psalms 37:9), "shall be slain" (Psalms 62:3). God will "destroy" them (Psalms 145:20), and "fire shall devour them" (Psalms 21:9). Note that all of these references make it clear that the wicked die and are destroyed. They do not live forever in misery.

_The Greek word "Gehenna"  is a transliteration of the Hebrew "Ge-Hinnom," which means the "Valley of Hinnom." This valley, which lies immediately south and west of Jerusalem, was a place where dead animals, garbage, and other refuse were dumped. Fire burned constantly, as it does at modern sanitation dump sites. The Bible uses "Gehenna" or the "Valley of Hinnom" as a symbol of the fire that will destroy the lost at the end of time. The fire of Gehenna was not unending. Otherwise it would be still burning southwest of Jerusalem today. Neither will the fire of hell be unending._


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## blazingthru (Apr 26, 2012)

Laela said:


> Blazin', there is NO VOID in God. The earth was without form and void until God breathed life into it. How can anything that has the essence of God in it be "nothing" if it's living??.


 

Well, I don't mean it as deep as that, it's like the air, one moment you feel it the next it's gone.  As you place your hand over your mouth and feel the air as you breath you can't hold it, it's not viewable unless you blow in a window in the cold, and it imprints the window but eventually its gone, that is the air in our body only it comes from God so it is not realy the same as the air flowing in the wind, this air gives life giving powers and it allows us to become a living soul. Without it, we are just a body.  It does not hold your thoughts, your deeds, your feelings.  All of that is part of the soul which is the body. However, without the breath of life, it's just a lifeless body.  The breath of life returns to God whom gave it.  

[/QUOTE]I agree thoughts/feelings or emotions are physical aspects - controlled by the mind. But the spirit is not just a puff of air, or nothingness, as it came from God.

Maybe you can elaborate more on this... so I get what you're saying? Because I'm not getting it 

Spirit and Breath mean the same things. Solomon calls it the spirit, but Genesis calls it the breath, Job calls it the breath and the spirit at the same time in his nostrils. Job 27:3   God gives the spirit to create, but Genesis says He gave the breath to create. It only makes sense when we understand that the two words are used interchangeably and mean the same thing. 

The soul does not go in and out of the body; neither does it have an independent existence outside of the body. Because the Greek word “psuche,” meaning “life,” has sometimes been translated as “soul” in our King James Version, some have drawn wrong conclusions; but only because they apply a false definition to the word “soul.” Millions have been taught that the soul possesses a natural immortality, and every time they read or hear the word they assume something that is totally false and unbiblical. Not even one time in the Bible is the soul referred to as being immortal or undying.  the soul is the conscious life which resulted when God added the breath or spirit to the body


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## blazingthru (Apr 26, 2012)

text from the book, spirit of the dead, joe crews

Death is a Sleep


In harmony with all the rest of the Bible, Job describes a period of unconscious sleep in the grave before awaking to receive his reward. It agrees with Daniel, who spoke of the coming of Christ in these words, “And at that time thy people shall be delivered ... And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:1, 2). There is a reason that so many inspired writers speak of death as a sleep. It is a perfect description of the state of the dead. When a tired man lies down at night he is immediately wrapped in sleep. As far as he is concerned, the very next moment he is awakened by the rising sun. He is totally unconscious of anything that transpired while he slept. So it is with the sleep of death. 

Lazarus had died. Jesus said to His disciples, “Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead” (John 11:11-14). 


Here is a classic example of the true Bible teaching about death. Christ called death a sleep. Later, He stood by the rock-hewn sepulchre of His friend and cried out, “Lazarus, come forth!” He did not say, “Lazarus, come down.” Lazarus was not up in heaven, nor was he anywhere else, except inside the walls of his tomb. In response to the call of Jesus, he awoke from his sleep of death and walked out into the sunlight. 


Many exaggerated tales have circulated about people who came back from the dead but this is the most authentic story on record. There is absolutely no doubt that Lazarus had been dead for four days. His sisters protested when Jesus ordered the stone to be rolled away from the door. Martha said, “... Lord, by this time he stinketh” (John 11:39). 


Most modern accounts of patients who resuscitate from heart failure include dramatic recitals of glorious views of heaven. What did this righteous man have to say about his four days of death? Did he report celestial visions of heavenly reward? Not a word. He had been asleep, just as Jesus had indicated. It had been like a moment of oblivion. 


By the way, what kind of unspeakable punishment would it have been to bring Lazarus back into this dark world after being in the presence of God? Surely he would have begged not to return, had he truly been enjoying the rewards of the righteous. A resumption of earthly life would have been worse than the horror of hell in comparison to ninety-six hours in Paradise. Certainly our Lord would never have been guilty of playing such a trick on His friend Lazarus. 


Why do we find it difficult to believe the simple terminology that Jesus used in describing death? Certainly we have no problem in understanding the nature of sleep. Suppose a man lies fast asleep on a park bench. So soundly does he sleep that he is totally unaware of the stealthy approach of an attacker. In another moment he lies dead in a pool of blood. Now, according to the popular view of death, this man who knew nothing while he was sleeping, suddenly knows everything as his soul leaves his body. But how could that be true? Jesus said death is a sleep. If the man knew nothing while sleeping, how could he know any more after death? Christ’s words would have no meaning if we twist them to mean whatever we want to believe. 


We are not left to wonder about the nature of this death-sleep. Many Bible writers give detailed explanations of what it is like. “Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish” (Psalm 146:3, 4). 


Out of all the puzzling aspects of death which could be discussed, the inspired writers most often talked about the unconscious nature of it. Never once do we find any of the exciting descriptions of life after death which mark the modern version of the doctrine. Theology has adopted its teaching directly from the pleasing forms of pagan worship. David said, “He returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.” Solomon wrote, “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in anything that is done under the sun... Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest” (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10). 


If one deliberately tried to produce stronger words and expressions to support a totally dreamless sleep in death, he would be hard put to match these words of the wise man. Just suppose for a moment that the same forceful statements were made to assert consciousness after death. In other words, suppose Solomon had said, “Their love, and their hatred, and their envy will continue.., for there is work and knowledge and wisdom in the grave whither thou goest.” Such an unambiguous statement would rightly be the end of all debate on the subject. Who could argue with it? 


But here is the incredible truth! Not only does the Bible contain no such statement, but it repeatedly declares the opposite! Yet people continue to believe only what they want to believe. Passing over the explicit verses given by numerous inspired authors, which tell the truth about death, multitudes blindly follow empty traditions learned from parents or pastor. 


Again we read, “For the grave cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day” (Isaiah 38:18, 19). Would not the righteous dead praise God if they were ushered into heaven at their death? David repeats the same timeless truth, “The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence” (Psalm 115:17). “For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?” (Psalm 6:5).


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## JinaRicci (Apr 26, 2012)

blazingthru said:


> text from the book, spirit of the dead, joe crews
> 
> Death is a Sleep
> 
> ...


 
blazingthru You've given us (IMO) very good illustrations. Jesus went to the tomb to resurrect or 'wake up' Lazarus. And after Jesus' own death, his followers went to the tomb expecting to find His body.

*Luke 24: 5 In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, “Why do you look for the living among the dead? 6 He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee: 7 ‘The Son of Man must be delivered over to the hands of sinners, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.’ ” *

Even when the disciples didn't believe the women, they ran to the tomb expecting to find His body. It was not until they had spoken to Him twice, touched Him and seen Him eat, did they start to believe (vs 13-49) that He was alive. He only ascended to heaven after he had appeared to them 3 times. 

*51 While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. 52 Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy.*

So going back to the repentant thief on the cross, Jesus could not have been telling him that he was going to be with him in heaven that same day (Luke 23:43). Jesus himself was not in Paradise. He was in the grave. Crown already posted about the comma placement. 

*He was saying: "Today (present tense) you will be with me in paradise."*

I'm really glad to see this discussion (no matter how many times it's been done  ) because of the wide attention given to recent accounts by patients of heaven like the 'Heaven is for real' book which are not consistent with scripture. 

I've said this before but I understand how people would want to think of their loved ones in heaven in a better place because that gives them comfort. But we've seen so much danger in this deception because it attempts to take away the authority on death and salvation from God and place it on humans. The hope we should have is that we and our loved ones who are faithful will be united with Christ when He returns and receive the gift of eternal life.


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## Crown (Apr 26, 2012)

blazingthru said:


> @Crown I don't understand your question. Elijah and Moses are in heaven. Please help me to understand your question.
> 
> *2 Kings 2:11*
> 
> ...


I was referring to Mat. 17, not 18.
You pick up Mat. 17 anyway, I told you not, it's a vision. You agree about parable, right?

 My question:
How do you explain that the Word of God made flesh did not know that 3 men, Enoch, Elijah and Moses, were in heaven?

Jn 3:13 *No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.*

*Jn. 1:* 18*No man** hath seen God at any time*, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

[3762 _/oudeís_ ("not one, none") _categorically excludes_, declaring as a _fact_ that no valid example exists.] http://concordances.org/greek/3762.htm


*My second question:*
Did these 3 men obtain their immortality before the Son of man, Christ?

1 Tim. 6: 11 But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. 12 *Fight the good fight of the faith*. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13 In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame *until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ*, 15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 *who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see.* To him be honor and might forever. Amen.


My third question:
If these 3 men were in heaven before the Word of God was made flesh, was death destroyed before the perfect sacrifice?

2 Tim. 1: 10 but *it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death* and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.


Please, don't put a long text trying to explain, usually I don't read them. Let's stay with the scriptures. Give me a link if you want.


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## Crown (Apr 26, 2012)

JinaRicci said:


> @blazingthru You've given us (IMO) very good illustrations. Jesus went to the tomb to resurrect or 'wake up' Lazarus. And after Jesus' own death, his followers went to the tomb expecting to find His body.
> 
> *Luke 24: 5 In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, “Why do you look for the living among the dead? 6 He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee: 7 ‘The Son of Man must be delivered over to the hands of sinners, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.’ ” *
> 
> ...


 Not for you, JinaRicci, but for the viewers. It was the third time before His *visible* ascension.

Jn 20: 1*The first day of the week *cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
17Jesus saith unto her, *Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father*: but go to my brethren, and *say unto them, I ascend unto my Father*, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


Reminds this:
Lev. 23: 10Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then *ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest*: 
 11And *he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.* 
 12And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he *lamb without blemish* of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD.


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## JinaRicci (Apr 26, 2012)

Crown Thank you for the clarification!


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## blazingthru (Apr 26, 2012)

Crown said:


> I was referring to Mat. 17, not 18.
> You pick up Mat. 17 anyway, I told you not, it's a vision. You agree about parable, right?
> 
> My question:
> ...


 
This is an eyewitness testimony not a vision. These men were not sleeping, or in a trance Matthew, Mark, and Luke all record the experience of the transfiguration of Jesus on the Mountain.

Well, if we believe the bible, then we believe what it says. The bible tells us that Elijah and Moses are in heaven. We can take the text below to mean that no one can go to heaven on his or her own. Either God calls us or Jesus resurrect us, but Elijah and Moses are examples that we can go to heaven without seeing death and Moses represents the fact that even after death, we can go to heaven, but we can’t do either on our own. Only Jesus has this power. HE is the Archangel, and he has the power to draw us from the grave or retrieve us from the earth as he has promised in his word. Now the disciples knew of Moses, knew about his character what he wore, what he looked liked same as Elijah, no one said their names. They just knew from the stories of old who these two men were. But they were gone for 1000 of years. But as soon as they saw these men they knew who they were and what happen to them, they knew that Elijah was a great prophet, and they knew that Moses was the lawgiver and they knew one of these men did not see death and the other did. 
According to 1 Thessalonians 4:16 it is the "voice of the archangel" which opens the graves of the righteous dead when Jesus comes at the end of the world. in Romans 5:14. He said "nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses ...," proving that the power of death was broken for the first time in the resurrection of Moses.
Mark 9:9 it says, "tell no man what things they had seen." And Luke 9:32 specifically states that they were awake, not asleep or in a trance, when they "saw His glory and the two men that stood with Him."
2 Peter 1:16-18. "For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount." The transfiguration was a miniature of the Second Coming, and Moses was there to represent those who died and would be resurrected when Jesus comes, and Elijah was there to represent those who would be alive when Jesus returned and would never taste even the first death.


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## Crown (Apr 26, 2012)

blazingthru, do you really think that you have answered my questions?erplexed


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## Crown (Apr 26, 2012)

blazingthru said:


> *Enoch, Elijah and Moses are in heaven*, But they are there for specific reasons.  Enoch walked with God. He spent all of his time with God. God took him. We assume he is in heaven. I don't know that text by heart. I will have to look at it again, but for now I believe he is in heaven.  Elijah the Prophet is in heaven. He represents those who will never see death. Moses represent the Law, and those who have died and were resurrected.  Moses is the great
> lawgiver, and Elijah is the greatest of the Old Testament prophets. Again this is from memory, When Jesus died didn't the graves open. I believe that those who were resurrected also ascended to heaven when Jesus returned.  It's not determined for us to really know who is in heaven or not, but to know that we have a appointment  where we all we go to heaven at the same time.





blazingthru said:


> ...The transfiguration was a miniature of the Second Coming, and Moses was there to represent those who died and would be resurrected when Jesus comes, and Elijah was there to represent those who would be alive when Jesus returned and would never taste even the first death.


Does your denomination have an interpretation for why did they leave Enoch at home?


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Apr 26, 2012)

If Moses is really in heaven why is he still dead...why was Michael and Satan contending for his dead body??


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## blazingthru (Apr 26, 2012)

Crown said:


> Does your denomination have an interpretation for why did they leave Enoch at home?


 
I didn't complete the answers to all of your questions.  I have to apologize. I am so exhausted right now  and will have to think some more about the answers above.  
All the text I post except for the  sermon come from the biblegateway.com. I like the NASB bible or ESV or KJV.  If SDA has something different, this four-year-old has yet to learn about,  If you're talking about Ellen G. White. I don't actually review her books. I keep meaning to. It's not widely discussed. She opens up the word a little clearer, but you don't actually have to read her books you can just read the scriptures, and she states that in her books. However, they are good books for understanding difficult things, I just haven't gotten around to reading them. The great controversy is a really good book for anyone to read. I haven't finished that either.  I have not read it since 2009 and have not completed it.  As for Enoch, God tells us what we need to know when we need to know it. I can't see a purpose for us to know the reasons why Enoch remains in heaven, he, in my opinion, furfilled his purpose. He preached the word his entire life, on earth,  and spent all of his time with God. I imagine God must have spoken to him as he did with Moses.  But I will drain myself trying to find every answer for every single thing I read in the bible.  I don't feel I need to know. I feel that I know enough to earn and keep my salvation, but I spend more and more time drawing closer to God and thereby keeping that in my forethoughts. However, since you asked I would look in her book Patriots and Prophets ( I know I messed up on the spelling) and see what I can find and post it.  I don't know what is in there, but it might be interesting. If there is nothing than I will leave it alone.  You can find this information out as well. its online somewhere free.


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## blazingthru (Apr 26, 2012)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> If Moses is really in heaven why is he still dead...why was Michael and Satan contending for his dead body??


 
Michael the Archangel came to retrieve the body of Moses. He is no longer dead he is in heaven. This is before he came to earth to live in a human form.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Apr 26, 2012)

blazingthru said:
			
		

> Michael the Archangel came to retrieve the body of Moses. He is no longer dead he is in heaven. This is before he came to earth to live in a human form.



Before who came to the earth to live in human form?

Sorry just trying to get a better understanding


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## Crown (Apr 27, 2012)

blazingthru said:


> Michael the Archangel came to retrieve the body of Moses. He is no longer dead he is in heaven. This is before he came to earth to live in a human form.


Do you mean before the transfiguration?


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## Crown (Apr 27, 2012)

Let me try to understand your doctrine blazingthru.

For sure (for you):
*Enoch, Elijah and Moses are in heaven, for specific reasons.
*Some saints ascended to heaven with Christ, but not all saints.


Please, can you give the passage giving the testimony that some saints *ascended* to heaven with Christ?

If I understand what you are saying, some saints are in heaven, but not David, which God testified concerning him: ‘I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart’ (Acts 13: 22 )

Because Peter testified after the ascension:
Acts 2:  29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch *David*, that *he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day*.


Did you study the concordance of time between the events described in 2 Kings 2
and 2 Chronicles 21:12?


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## blazingthru (Apr 27, 2012)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> Before who came to the earth to live in human form?
> 
> Sorry just trying to get a better understanding


 
Michael is Jesus, but I won't go into discussion about this because I have not study this out. For me, it makes sense in just reading it once.


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## blazingthru (Apr 27, 2012)

Crown said:


> Let me try to understand your doctrine @blazingthru.
> 
> For sure (for you):
> *Enoch, Elijah and Moses are in heaven, for specific reasons.
> ...


 

@Crown, I will give these and the other questions to my pastor so he can answer. I believe that we should ask questions such as these with a sincere heart and a deep desire to know what the scriptures mean. I am a lay person. I spend a lot of time studying the bible but some text for me is simple and I do not need deep study on everything and all things. But the Pastor is use to these types of questions and he can better answer the questions you have posted, there is much in answering these questions. Joe Crews have sermons on these but its pages after pages of detail information and you asked that i not post all that info on here. I could have posted the link, but feel its better for pastor to answer.

I will come back and repost the response when he gives me a reply.


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## Crown (Apr 28, 2012)

blazingthru said:


> ...
> Hell is actually this entire earth at the End of the world. No one is in Hell and burning.  The Majority believes that right?  Based on what?  Hell more times then one in the bible mean the grave, which makes sense because that is what it really is when it completes its task it's just a grave.  but an any case hell most times in the bible really means the grave.  *This would be a really good study if anyone is serious* about finding the real meaning in the bible for its existence now.   *I personally think it would be a great study to break down the scriptures* that cause others to believe hell is in existence and that people are actually in it.  *It would be full of way to many contradictions with other scriptures, I think it would be very interesting and helpful to my studies though*.





blazingthru said:


> @Crown, I will give these and the other questions to my pastor so he can answer. *I believe that we should ask questions such as these with a sincere heart and a deep desire to know what the scriptures mean*. I am a lay person. I spend a lot of time studying the bible but *some text for me is simple and I do not need deep study on everything and all things*. But the Pastor is use to these types of questions and he can better answer the questions you have posted, there is much in answering these questions. Joe Crews have sermons on these but its pages after pages of detail information and you asked that i not post all that info on here. I could have posted the link, but feel its better for pastor to answer.


Is not what we are doing: breaking down the scriptures to examine some beliefs?
Or are you assuming that you have the truth.
Do you agree to this study just to say what you believe, not really to study?




> I will come back and repost the response when he gives me a reply.


Thank you!
Also, please ask him about Daniel. For you, did he ascend to heaven with the other saints? 
The scriptures say:

Dan. 12:  2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake:   *some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt*.
13But *go thou thy way till the end be*: for thou shalt rest, and *stand in thy lot at the end of the days.*


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Apr 29, 2012)

blazingthru said:
			
		

> Michael is Jesus, but I won't go into discussion about this because I have not study this out. For me, it makes sense in just reading it once.



Michael is Jesus?


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## Poohbear (May 1, 2012)

blazingthru said:


> Michael is Jesus, but I won't go into discussion about this because I have not study this out. For me, it makes sense in just reading it once.





Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> Michael is Jesus?


:ha:

I'm sorry but this made me just....


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## Crown (May 1, 2012)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> Michael is Jesus?


Gabriel for Mormons.
Michael for SDA


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## JinaRicci (May 1, 2012)

Crown said:


> Gabriel for Mormons.
> Michael for SDA


 
I'm lost. How is this specific to SDA? Who is referred to in texts like these? 

Revelation 12: 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 


Luke 1: 26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.


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## Crown (May 1, 2012)

JinaRicci said:


> I'm lost. How is this specific to SDA? Who is referred to in texts like these?
> 
> Revelation 12: 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
> 
> ...


I am not sure that I understand your question 
But, I have one about you quote (Luke): why do SDA pick up Michael and not Gabriel?


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## JinaRicci (May 1, 2012)

Crown said:


> I am not sure that I understand your question
> But, I have one about you quote (Luke): why do SDA pick up Michael and not Gabriel?


 
You indicated that Jesus is referred to as Michael by SDAs but as Gabriel by Mormons. My understanding is that Christianity on a whole accepts Gabriel as the angel who visited Mary and does not consider that Gabriel was in fact Jesus. Thus, I have never heard of choosing one name over the other as Michael and Gabriel are two different beings in the Bible. 

Since I'm an SDA, I'd like to understand the basis for this perception as it's not a teaching. To help understand, it would add to the discussion to indicate how are Gabriel and Michael being interpeted in the texts posted and accordingly all referenced texts in the Bible.


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## Galadriel (May 1, 2012)

Crown said:


> Gabriel for Mormons.
> Michael for SDA



I think Jehovah's Witnesses also believe that the archangel Michael = Jesus


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## Crown (May 2, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> I think Jehovah's Witnesses also believe that the archangel Michael = Jesus


You are right! Sorry, I said Mormons, but it's Jehovah's Witnesses.

It seems that Mormons believe that the Archangel *Michael *came down to earth with several of his celestial wives, and *became Adam* in the garden of Eden, and the angel *Gabriel *came down to earth and *became Noah* in the days of the flood.


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## Crown (May 2, 2012)

JinaRicci said:


> I'm lost. *How is this specific to SDA?* Who is referred to in texts like these?
> 
> Revelation 12: 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
> 
> ...





JinaRicci said:


> You indicated that *Jesus is referred to as Michael by SDAs* but as Gabriel by Mormons.
> My understanding is that Christianity on a whole accepts Gabriel as the angel who visited Mary and does not consider that Gabriel was in fact Jesus. Thus, I have never heard of choosing one name over the other as Michael and Gabriel are two different beings in the Bible.
> 
> Since I'm an SDA, I'd like to understand the basis for this perception as it's not a teaching. *To help understand, it would add to the discussion to indicate how *are Gabriel and* Michael being interpeted in the texts posted and accordingly all referenced texts in the Bible*.


Let's do it!

I think that we share the same view about Gabriel (I am not Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses, so no need to continue on this), let's see about Michael.

 *Tell me, how can Jesus be one of the chief princes?


Dan. 10:13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then *Michael*, *one of the chief princes*, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.
http://biblos.com/daniel/10-13.htm



*If Michael is Jesus, how is it that he had not rebuked the devil?
*Why did he refer to the Lord?


Jude 9Yet Michael the archangel, *when contending with the devil* he disputed about the body of Moses, durst *not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee*.



As the Lord did it in:


Mat. 17: 18And *Jesus rebuked the devil*; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.

Mk 9: 25When Jesus saw that the people came running together, *he rebuked the foul spirit*, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.

ETA: @JinaRicci, @blazingthru
http://www.longhaircareforum.com/member.php?u=76771


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## Poohbear (May 2, 2012)

I'm sorry but these angels -- Michael and Gabriel -- are not Jesus.


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## blazingthru (May 20, 2012)

Crown said:


> Is not what we are doing: breaking down the scriptures to examine some beliefs?  *No you are asking specific questions not related to or originate with the question of Hell.  It has changed. Hell was the topic  that was interesting to study out.  In your case, YOU don't believe that anyone is in heaven and it is for you to study out whether they are or not. I believe that they are in heaven, because the bible specifically says that 2 Kings 2:11
> And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.*
> Or are you assuming that you have the truth.  *I believe that the truth is in the word of God and that we are to be sincere as we study the text and not be accusatory towards our brothers and sister or call our brother and sisters a fool.  Or mock our brothers and sisters which is often done on this board, I think that we are not all going to agree but we should all agree on the word and have an open mind that we ourselves could be incorrect, As in the case of Michael it is very easy for me to see that this is Jesus, Because of the name, What does the name mean?  It means who is like God and with studying out Michael and his many names in the bible you will see that it is Jesus our Lord and savior, but I will include more information below. *
> Do you agree to this study just to say what you believe, not really to study?  I agree to comment, not be a leader, I agree to make comments towards the study of hell which we are no longer studying we are studying something else all together which in my opinion is simple and easy but can be misunderstood by others. Of course eventually this will help when coming down to bible study with others. However, the questions you have asked while some what simple to answer but in my opinion can't be put in simple answers more study is required. so I submit the questions to my pastor who has been overwhelmed with other duties and I have no had  chance to sit down with him.  but he understands that I would like his knowledge on this. However. he did provide me with something simple which I will place in here.
> ...



*None of the people you have mention as we know or as the bible say have ascended to heaven.  It says the graves were opened.  We don't know who came out of them.  Don't you think its strange that there is no more mentioned of those returned from the dead.  When Lazarus was woken from the grave, there was much talk about it.  People came to see him,  others plotted to kill him. 
Matthew 27:51-54
King James Version (KJV)
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
*



John 11:43
And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. the voice of the Archangel

John 12:1
Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.

John 12:2
There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.

John 12:9
Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead.

John 12:10
But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death;

John 12:17
The people therefore that was with him when he called Lazarus out of his grave, and raised him from the dead, bare record.


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## blazingthru (May 20, 2012)

*No One Has Seen the Father*
Suddenly we have more leads than we can follow at once. The "angel of the Lord" is clearly shown to be God. But the Bible states, "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him" (John 1:18). John 6:46 tells us, "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father." Obviously, since no man has seen God the Father, all of these Old Testament sightings of God as the "angel of the Lord" must have been Jesus, God the Son, veiling His glory so they could endure His presence without being consumed.

As you stated before no man has seen God, But they have seen the Archangel or who is like God, or Who is like God.  Jesus, Michael the prince of peace.  It never occurred to me that beings can exist in heaven and never see God.  But Jesus is God isn't that correct?  Michael threw Satan and his demons out of heaven, who is Michael that he and his angels can throw Satan and 1/3 of the angels out of heaven?  He is the Chief.  
Rebuking the Accuser
There is one more important reference where the angel of the Lord appears in the Old Testament. The prophet Zechariah was given a vision of Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord. Satan is standing at his right hand to resist him. Here we see two adversaries contending over a sinful human being. In this case the sin is represented by Joshua's filthy garments (Zechariah 3:3).

In this narrative the name changes quickly from "the angel of the Lord" (verse 1) to "the Lord" (verse 2), indicating again that they are one and the same. Then the Lord makes an interesting statement. "And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan" (Zechariah 3:2) There is only one other place in Scripture, Jude verse nine, where this sentence is found, and it is spoken by Michael the archangel!

In the small New Testament epistle of Jude we see a vignette similar to Joshua and the angel in the book of Zechariah. "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee" (Jude 1:9). The situations are amazingly parallel. Christ and Satan are contending over a sinner. A live one in the case of Joshua, and a dead one in the case of Moses. The debate is ended abruptly when Jesus says, "The Lord rebuke thee." Jesus also rebuked the devil when He was tempted in the wilderness. "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan" (Luke 4:8).

Michael the Prince
Isaiah's prophecy about the Messiah (Isaiah 9:6) reveals a key word that bears investigating. One of the names he says that would apply to the Messiah is "Prince of Peace." This immediately reminds us of the three verses in Daniel in which Michael is called a "prince."

There is another verse in Daniel where the "Prince of princes" is mentioned. Again the cosmic conflict is being played out with Christ on one side and the devil on the other, with humanity serving as the battlefield. Symbolic names identify the two arch foes. Both struggle to gain control, Satan against our will and Christ only with our willingness.

"Prince of princes" is actually the same term that is translated "prince of the host" in verse 11. This is similar to "Lord of lords" (Psalm 136:3), "God of gods" (Deuteronomy 10:17), and "King of kings" (Revelation 19:16). All these are titles of deity. He is even referred to as "Messiah the Prince" (Daniel 9:25).


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## blazingthru (May 20, 2012)

One, or First?
Daniel 10:13 is probably the most difficult verse regarding Michael: "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me." It appears at first glance that Michael is only "one of" the chief princes. This is an unfortunate translation in the King James Version. The word "one" comes from the Hebrew word "echad" which also means "first," as in "first day" (Genesis 1:5). This changes the whole meaning of the verse to Michael being first of, or highest of, the chief princes. Again, a reference to Jesus.

The Voice of Michael
If we take the term "Michael the archangel" and examine the word "archangel," we see another interesting match. The only other passage in the Bible that uses the word "archangel" is 1 Thessalonians 4:16. But look at its context. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first." It is the voice of the archangel that raises the dead in Christ, and the Lord Himself who shouts it. This indicates that they are one and the same. Jesus is the one who shouts with the voice of the archangel, or "greatest Messenger," to raise the dead!

Obviously, angels don't have the power to resurrect the dead. Only God who gives life has the power to restore it. "For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself. … Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth" (John 5:26, 28, 29).

In Jude we see the archangel contending with the devil for the body of Moses, who, incidentally, was resurrected and taken to heaven from whence he appeared on the mount of transfiguration to encourage Christ (Mark 9). In 1 Thessalonians, the apostle Paul describes the resurrection as happening in response to the voice of the archangel. Again we see the parallel between these two verses; both describe the archangel in the act of resurrecting.

When Michael stands up in Daniel chapter 12, there also follows a resurrection, and he is described as the one who, "standeth for the children of thy people" (verse 1). Commenting on this verse, Matthew Henry states: "Michael signifies, 'Who is like God,' and his name, with the title of 'the great Prince,' points out the Divine Savior. Christ stood for the children of our people in their stead as a sacrifice, bore the curse for them, to bear it from them. He stands for them in pleading for them at the throne of grace." Jesus is clearly the one who always stands in our place and for our defense.

Worshiping the Commander 
In Revelation, Michael is portrayed as leading the heavenly hosts, or armies, in the war against the rebellious Lucifer that took place there. "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels" (Revelation 12:7). Here the term "dragon" is a symbolic name for Satan, the leader of evil (verse 9), so it is very safe to assume that Michael is another name for Jesus, the embodiment and leader of good. But there is more evidence.

Just as Israel was preparing for its first battle after crossing into the Promised Land, Joshua had an encounter with an unusual warrior. "And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? And the captain of the Lord's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so" (Joshua 5:13-15).

Not only did Joshua worship this being, but the heavenly captain received his worship. If he had been a mere angel, he would have rebuked Joshua just like the angel rebuked John for trying to worship him (see Revelation 19:10; 22:8, 9).

In all the cases where the angel of the Lord accepts worship, it is clearly the Son of God. But where regular created angels are worshiped, they refuse it. Even Jesus reminded Satan in the wilderness, "For it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve" (Luke 4:8).

In fact, all the created angels are commanded to worship Jesus as they did during His first advent. "And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him" (Hebrews 1:6). The devil is infuriated because he knows that someday even he will be compelled to acknowledge Jesus as king and worship Him. "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:10, 11).

The phrase "Lord of hosts" is found 245 times in the Bible and refers to the "commander of God's angelic army." So the "captain of the Lord's host" that Joshua saw was not an angel, but Jesus Himself. That explains why He demanded that Joshua remove his shoes. The place was holy because Jesus was there, just as Jesus' presence at the burning bush made that ground holy for Moses. So Michael, the captain of the Lord's host, or army, is another title for Jesus.

Who Is as God!
When Phillip asked Jesus to show the disciples the Father, Christ responded: "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9).

Some think that God's Son waited 4,000 years to personally intervene in the affairs of man. Not so! Though it is true that the incarnation occurred 4,000 years after man's fall, God the Son has been personally involved in the history and affairs of His people.

What a wonderful truth that Jesus, God's eternal Son, has ever been actively occupied in watching over, providing for, and protecting His children! He spoke face to face with Abraham and Moses and wrestled with Jacob. He led the Israelites through the wilderness, providing food and water and victory against their enemies.

Remember that the title "Michael the archangel" means "The greatest messenger who is as God." It was Jesus, "the image of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15), who brought the greatest message of hope, the gospel, to our perishing world!


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## blazingthru (May 20, 2012)

Does your denomination have an interpretation for why did they leave Enoch at home?

Crowne,

You will have to ask Jesus that question as I have already provided the reason for the other two. It was not for Jesus's benefit only, but for those looking on.  For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Matt 18:20. They validated that Jesus is the Christ.  God said Matthew 18:16
New King James Version (NKJV)
16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established

As far as the SDA teachings or concerned, I must say there are no teachings other then the bible.  The Bible only and you can hold any bible you want too except other religious bibles. Ellen White has tons of Books that are great for studying and I really like them.  However, I don't have time to read them, I collected all of them and plan to purchase 53 of them since they are on the kindle for 10.00 dollars.  It is a personal choice if you choose to read her books, they are a wonderful help in explaining text. They really are and its beneficial for everyone.  Nevertheless, it's just for studying.  It's in not to be preached from or be the end-all of anything it is a help, and she say so in her books. I don't know what else to say.  I think SDA has a bad rep because no one takes the time to understand it, but then I have been an Adventist for almost four years, and I am still learning why it not widely received but for me, it is my home. I plan to stay until Jesus comes again.


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## blazingthru (May 20, 2012)

I think that we share the same view about Gabriel (I am not Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses, so no need to continue on this), let's see about Michael.

Crowne,*Tell me, how can Jesus be one of the chief princes?  Dan. 10:13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.  http://biblos.com/daniel/10-13.htm

*Jesus is the Priest;   I think the One is incorrect translation.  Which you will find in the King James Translation from time to time and as with other translations in this case you must have your Greek and or Hebrew bibles as well.
‘ll have to come back to this later.

 If Jesus is Michael the chief prince, why in Daniel 10:13 does it read that Michael is rather “one of” the chief princes?

 Let us go back to what the Hebrew word “sar” means. It is translated “prince” in this case, but according to Strong’s Hebrew Definitions, it can also mean “head, ruler, chief, master, governor.” Do you think that these are titles that can also be applied to God the Father, and to the Holy Spirit?*
[/B]
1 John 5:7
*(7) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

There are three that bear record in heaven. Any “one of” these can be the “chief” or “head.” No wonder the bible speaks of a God-head (Acts 17:27), for all three, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, are head over all things. Each played a part in creating man, even the Holy Spirit (Job 33:4), therefore each deserve such titles as these. Jesus, or Michael, is “one of” the chiefs or head of the heavenly trio.*

Genesis 31:11-13
New King James Version (NKJV)
11 Then the Angel of God spoke to me in a dream, saying, ‘Jacob.’ And I said, ‘Here I am.’ 12 And He said, ‘Lift your eyes now and see, all the rams which leap on the flocks are streaked, speckled, and gray-spotted; for I have seen all that Laban is doing to you. 13 I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed the pillar and where you made a vow to Me. Now arise, get out of this land, and return to the land of your family.’”  "angel of God" identifies Himself: "I am the God of Beth-el, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me."  Then, when Jacob wrestled with a heavenly being (Genesis 32:22-32), he was given a new name and blessed. Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved" (verse 30). In the New Testament, Jesus is the one who blesses His people and gives them a new name (Matthew 5:3-12; Revelation 2:17). Clearly, the angel of the Lord is Jesus Himself
*When Jacob was on his death bed blessing Joseph's two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, he used the terms "angel" and "God" interchangeably. "God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day, The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads" (Genesis 48:15, 16). Once again we see that the angel who redeemed Jacob is another name for our Redeemer, Jesus!
And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush" (Exodus 3:2). Verse four identifies this angel: "God called unto him out of the midst of the bush." And in verse six He identifies Himself. "I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." The angel of the Lord identifies Himself as God!
*
In his last sermon before he was stoned to death, Stephen agrees with the Exodus account. "And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush. When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him, Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob" (Acts 7:30-32).
In another instance, the children of Israel were led through the wilderness by God, "And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night" (Exodus 13:21). Moses describes it this way: "And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them" (Exodus 14:19). Again, "the angel of God" is identified as God.
Samson's mother, the wife of Manoah, was barren. "And the angel of the Lord appeared unto the woman" (Judges 13:3). This angel told her she would bear a son who would deliver the apostate Israelites from their heathen oppressors. She quickly called Manoah, who prayed for another visit from the "man of God." When the angel came the second time, Manoah asked him his name. The King James Version of the Bible says that the angel told Manoah that his name was "Secret," with a margin notation that translates it as "Wonderful." This immediately makes us think of Isaiah's familiar prophecy that the name of the coming Messiah would be "Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6). The name "Wonderful" for the angel of the Lord who appeared to Manoah connects this "angel" with the coming Messiah who was to be called "Wonderful."
*If Michael is Jesus, how is it that he had not rebuked the devil?  *Why did he refer to the Lord?
Good Question: I posted this already but here it is again. The angel of the Lord appears in the Old Testament. The prophet Zechariah was given a vision of Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord. Satan is standing at his right hand to resist him. Here we see two adversaries contending over a sinful human being. Joshua's filthy garment symbolizes his sin. (Zechariah 3:3).
In this narrative, the name changes quickly from "the angel of the Lord" (verse 1) to "the Lord" (verse 2), indicating again that they are the same. Then the Lord makes an interesting statement. "And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan" (Zechariah 3:2). There is only one other place in Scripture, Jude 9, where this sen- tence is found—and Michael the archangel speaks it!
In the short epistle of Jude, we witness a vignette similar to Joshua and the angel in Zechariah. "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee" (Jude 1:9). The situations are amazingly parallel: Christ and Satan are contending over the fate of two of God’s great human leaders (a living one in the case of Joshua, and a dead one in the case of Moses). The debate is ended abruptly when Jesus says, "The Lord rebuke thee."

This passage raises another valid question. Some people are confused by part of this verse in Jude 1:9 where Michael rebukes the devil. They wonder: If Michael is really another name for Jesus, then why does he invoke the name of the Lord when rebuking Satan? Why not do it Himself as He did when tempted in the wilderness. "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan" (Matthew 4:10).
In studying the Scriptures and language of Jesus, we quickly see it was a very common practice for Jesus to speak of Himself in the second person, as in Luke 18:8: "Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" And if there is still any lingering question, we have this other clear Scripture in Zechariah 3:2, where the Lord does the same thing Michael does in Jude. He invokes His own name when rebuking the devil. "And the LORD said to Satan, 'The LORD rebuke you, Satan!'" Perhaps these Scriptures are examples of God the Son, appealing to the name of His Father in rebuking Satan.
Jude 9Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
As the Lord did it in:
Mat. 17: 18And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
Mk 9: 25When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.


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## Galadriel (May 21, 2012)

blazingthru, I have found that people who believe the archangel Michael is Jesus also reject the Trinity and that Jesus is God. Do you believe in the Trinity and that Jesus is divine (True God) as God the Father is?


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## blazingthru (May 21, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> blazingthru, I have found that people who believe the archangel Michael is Jesus also reject the Trinity and that Jesus is God. Do you believe in the Trinity and that Jesus is divine (True God) as God the Father is?



Galadriel,  I am an Adventist but that doesn't mean that all Adventist believe what I believe. So that no one would think that because I post, means I represent all Adventist I do not, some do not believe. Just as with any church you have members that do not believe all that is taught in the pulpit or bible study.  We all have our own walk with God and we all don't get to the same understanding as our other brothers and sister and that is fine as long as we continue on the journey.  The bible reference Michael as Jesus or the Angel Of God over and over that is how we determine that they are one in the same. Michael has power to bring life? God has given this power to  Jesus has he not, but at no time has he given this power to an Angel.   God the father, Jesus the son and the Holy Spirit are separate yet or the same or one. But mainly one in purpose. Trinity is not a biblical word. 

In the Hebrew mind, One means Unity. 

*Matthew 28:19*
King James Version (KJV)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

*2 Corinthians 13:13-14*
King James Version (KJV)
13 All the saints salute you. 14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

*John 5:17-47*
King James Version (KJV)
17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

21 *For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.*

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. *1 Thessalonians 4:16*
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,  *Hear who's voice?  Jesus or the ArchAngel, who is the ArchAngel Michael or Jesus, or they one and the same, it appears that they are one and the same. * 

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

What I believe, I believe in the bible, I believe that the word is true, or there mistake yes there can be some minor mistakes in grammar or not transferring the correct word from greek and hebrew to english text.  But the bible is my standard and God the father and Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit or all of God yet separate, yet a Unit, that agree on the same purpose and each has its own function. The father, the Word and the Holy Ghost are united in their purpose of creation, of redemption, and saving man. 

Here again is all three together yet separate 
Matthew 3:16-17 (King James Version)

Matthew 3:16-17
King James Version (KJV)
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

God says there is only one God though. We base our beliefs on what is in the word and that is there is only one God. there separate entities but one God
*Isaiah 44:6-8
*King James Version (KJV)
6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.

8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
*John 17:3*
King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent

*1 Timothy 2:5*
King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

However, Jesus is proclaimed as God by God and himself and others. 

John 1:1-4
King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 14:6
King James Version (KJV)
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Psalm 90:2
King James Version (KJV)
2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Revelation 1:8 ( Jesus says this)
King James Version (KJV)
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

My apologies for the long post, but I wanted to make sure I answered your questions.  I am not a pastor, and evangelist, I am a christian trying my best to be close to God and hoping to be a blessing to someone else.  There are tons of text about God and all of those text are applied to the Christ as well. I believe God, the Word, and the Holy Spirit or one yet separate entities   based on my studies in the bible.


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## Galadriel (May 21, 2012)

Thank you for taking the time to answer .

Even though the Trinity is not a term found in the Bible, it is the term applied to a Biblical truth (i.e., that there is one God who exists as three distinct Persons).

I would also put forth that Michael is an archangel, and Jesus is God--thus they cannot be one and the same (as an angel is not and cannot be God).





blazingthru said:


> @Galadriel,  I am an Adventist but that doesn't mean that all Adventist believe what I believe. So that no one would think that because I post, means I represent all Adventist I do not, some do not believe. Just as with any church you have members that do not believe all that is taught in the pulpit or bible study.  We all have our own walk with God and we all don't get to the same understanding as our other brothers and sister and that is fine as long as we continue on the journey.  The bible reference Michael as Jesus or the Angel Of God over and over that is how we determine that they are one in the same. Michael has power to bring life? God has given this power to  Jesus has he not, but at no time has he given this power to an Angel.   God the father, Jesus the son and the Holy Spirit are separate yet or the same or one. But mainly one in purpose. Trinity is not a biblical word.
> 
> In the Hebrew mind, One means Unity.
> 
> ...


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## blazingthru (May 21, 2012)

It doesn't say he is an Angel, it says ArchAngel but it does not mean what we think it means.  He is not an angel. It is not an opinion, it is not my opinion. We learn who is who by studying the words and how they are interchangeable, or how they apply to both God and Jesus and Michael and Jesus are one in the same.  God calls Jesus God.  The word ‘angel’ is used many ways in the Bible.  King David was called an angel and he was a human. 
The Bible tells us that it is Michael who intercedes for God's people in Daniel 12:1. Jesus is also known as our Intercessor. When this archangel, the general of the Lord's army appeared to Joshua, Joshua took off his shoes and worshipped him.
   We also read in the book of Jude that it is Michael who resurrects Moses. And of course, Jesus is the Resurrection. We also read that the Lord is going to descend with the voice of the archangel, and we know clearly that Jesus is the one who's going to descend. An angel means ‘a messenger’.  Cherubim and seraphim are specific creatures that we often call angels.  Michael, the Archangel, is a title for the highest messenger who is as God.  That’s what that means.  When it says, the Lord Himself comes down from heaven with the voice of the Archangel it means the Lord comes with the voice of the greatest messenger.  Directly from the Greek, that’s what it’s saying.  And if you go to Daniel 12:1 it says: At that time shall Michael stand up, the great Prince that stands for the children of thy people.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (May 21, 2012)

blazingthru said:
			
		

> It doesn't say he is an Angel, it says ArchAngel but it does not mean what we think it means.  He is not an angel. It is not an opinion, it is not my opinion. We learn who is who by studying the words and how they are interchangeable, or how they apply to both God and Jesus and Michael and Jesus are one in the same.  God calls Jesus God.  The word ‘angel’ is used many ways in the Bible.  King David was called an angel and he was a human.
> The Bible tells us that it is Michael who intercedes for God's people in Daniel 12:1. Jesus is also known as our Intercessor. When this archangel, the general of the Lord's army appeared to Joshua, Joshua took off his shoes and worshipped him.
> We also read in the book of Jude that it is Michael who resurrects Moses. And of course, Jesus is the Resurrection. We also read that the Lord is going to descend with the voice of the archangel, and we know clearly that Jesus is the one who's going to descend. An angel means ‘a messenger’.  Cherubim and seraphim are specific creatures that we often call angels.  Michael, the Archangel, is a title for the highest messenger who is as God.  That’s what that means.  When it says, the Lord Himself comes down from heaven with the voice of the Archangel it means the Lord comes with the voice of the greatest messenger.  Directly from the Greek, that’s what it’s saying.  And if you go to Daniel 12:1 it says: At that time shall Michael stand up, the great Prince that stands for the children of thy people.



Blazing how does hebrews chapter one cone into play with this?

Jesus also gave the 12 power to heal the sick and raise the dead this authority is not limited to the 12 we also have the same power but it does not make us the resurrection.  I will post scriptures later.


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## blazingthru (May 22, 2012)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> Blazing how does hebrews chapter one cone into play with this?
> 
> Jesus also gave the 12 power to heal the sick and raise the dead this authority is not limited to the 12 we also have the same power but it does not make us the resurrection.  I will post scriptures later.



 Hebrews 1:13-14 and Hebrews 2:16 which seem to say that Jesus is not an Angel?

Jesus is not a created Angel. He is God himself, and member of the heavenly Godhead, who bears a message much like angels bear messages. In both Hebrew and Greek the word Angel means “messenger.” In a messianic prophecy speaking about Jesus we read that he is the “messenger” of the covenant. 

Malachi 3:1
(1) Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Note that “the Lord,” even the “messenger of the covenant” shall suddenly come to his temple. It was Jesus who came to the temple (John 1:10-11, 14, 2:14-21). The word translated “messenger” here is mainly translated “angel” elsewhere in the scriptures. Yet this does not mean that Jesus is an angel, but that as an angel, he came with a message.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (May 22, 2012)

blazingthru said:


> It doesn't say he is an Angel, it says ArchAngel but it does not mean what we think it means. He is not an angel. It is not an opinion, it is not my opinion. We learn who is who by studying the words and how they are interchangeable, or how they apply to both God and Jesus and Michael and Jesus are one in the same. God calls Jesus God. The word ‘angel’ is used many ways in the Bible. King David was called an angel and he was a human.
> The Bible tells us that it is Michael who intercedes for God's people in Daniel 12:1. Jesus is also known as our Intercessor. When this archangel, the general of the Lord's army appeared to Joshua, Joshua took off his shoes and worshipped him.
> We also read in the book of Jude that it is Michael who resurrects Moses. And of course, Jesus is the Resurrection. We also read that the Lord is going to descend with the voice of the archangel, and we know clearly that Jesus is the one who's going to descend. An angel means ‘a messenger’. Cherubim and seraphim are specific creatures that we often call angels. Michael, the Archangel, is a title for the highest messenger who is as God. That’s what that means. When it says, the Lord Himself comes down from heaven with the voice of the Archangel it means the Lord comes with the voice of the greatest messenger. Directly from the Greek, that’s what it’s saying. And if you go to Daniel 12:1 it says: At that time shall Michael stand up, the great Prince that stands for the children of thy people.


 
Blazing

That is what we do every Thursday nights on the prayer line, anyone who prays on behalf of someone else is an Intercessor in fact, all Christians are called to be intercessors. (1 Samuel 12:23) “As for me, far be it from me that I should *sin against the LORD by failing to pray for you*” .

Again the 12 Apostles were given power to heal the sick and raise the dead, also Jesus said that we would do greater works that He, so this tells me that I (we) can also raise the dead by His power and authority (now whether my (our) faith is ‘there’ that’s another topic for another day).

As far as Messengers go John the Baptist was a messenger of God but not an angel (Luke 7:27) This is _he_, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my *messenger* before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. (emphasis mine) and so was Malachi the very meaning of his name means messenger of God.

Why is Jesus heralding his own desencion (sp?) that makes no sense to me. Michael is AS God but he is not God.

(Joshua 5:14 -15) And he said, Nay; but _as_ captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith *my lord* unto his servant? 15And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua*, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy*. And Joshua did so. (emphasis mine)

Joshua takes off his shoes only after the messenger tells him where he is standing is holy, I believe that this ‘worship’ is reverential notice when he says ‘my lord’, lord is in lower case.

I’ll do some more research and come back later…


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## blazingthru (May 22, 2012)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> Blazing
> 
> That is what we do every Thursday nights on the prayer line, anyone who prays on behalf of someone else is an Intercessor in fact, all Christians are called to be intercessors. (1 Samuel 12:23) “As for me, far be it from me that I should *sin against the LORD by failing to pray for you*” .
> 
> ...


 In every case when confronting an angel, That angel will not accept worship, That Angel cannot accept worship, because worship belongs to God and God alone.  Jesus accepted worship in the form of the Angel of God.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (May 22, 2012)

I'm not saying that Jesus is and angel, I'm saying that Michael is and Angel though a higher ranking angel he is an angel no less, therefore he can not be Jesus.



*Hebrews 1*


 1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 

 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 

 3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: 

*4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. *

*5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? *

 6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, *And let all the angels of God worship him. *

 7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 

 8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 

 9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 

 10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 

 11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 

 12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. 

*13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?* 
  14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?





blazingthru said:


> Hebrews 1:13-14 and Hebrews 2:16 which seem to say that Jesus is not an Angel?
> 
> Jesus is not a created Angel. He is God himself, and member of the heavenly Godhead, who bears a message much like angels bear messages. In both Hebrew and Greek the word Angel means “messenger.” In a messianic prophecy speaking about Jesus we read that he is the “messenger” of the covenant.
> 
> ...


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (May 22, 2012)

And your thoughts on 'Messenger', 'Intercessor' and 'Resurrection'???




blazingthru said:


> In every case when confronting an angel, That angel will not accept worship, That Angel cannot accept worship, because worship belongs to God and God alone. Jesus accepted worship in the form of the Angel of God.


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## blazingthru (May 22, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> Thank you for taking the time to answer .
> 
> Even though the Trinity is not a term found in the Bible, it is the term applied to a Biblical truth (i.e., that there is one God who exists as three distinct Persons).
> 
> I would also put forth that Michael is an archangel, and Jesus is God--thus they cannot be one and the same (as an angel is not and cannot be God).



What do you know about Archangels? What do we know about Archangels.   are they angels?  Archangel means Chief Messenger, it doesn't mean angel. Jesus is The Angel of God, he has more names then just one in fact, his name on earth is Jesus but we have no ideal his name in heaven.  If we make it to heaven do you not know we will no longer be known as our earthly names, we will be given new names.  Lets reason for a moment,  Could Jesus be called Jesus when he came for Moses body, No he could not because Jesus was Earths Messiah. That time had not come yet. This information does not lead to salvation and really is just for studying purposes.
this majestic and mysterious being, sometimes called Michael, sometimes the angel of the Lord, sometimes the commander of the Lord’s army, veiling His divinity and appearing in the form of a humble angel. Yet this same enigmatic being has the power, authority and attributes that belong only to God. He evicts the devil from heaven; He resurrects the dead; He intercedes for the saints; He judges and then stands, launching the great time of trouble. He redeems the saints and receives their worship. He offers us a new name.


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## Galadriel (May 23, 2012)

blazingthru said:


> What do you know about Archangels? What do we know about Archangels.   are they angels?  Archangel means Chief Messenger, it doesn't mean angel.



An angel is a messenger, a heavenly spirit in God's service. An archangel is a high-ranking angel. We also know that there are fallen or apostate angels (demons), among them Lucifer. Judaism has always recognized Michael and Gabriel as angels (and NEVER confused/identified Michael with God). Christians understood this as well. 

The belief that Michael = Jesus has its roots in an early 4th century heresy known as Arianism.




blazingthru said:


> Jesus is The Angel of God, he has more names then just one in fact, his name on earth is Jesus but we have no ideal his name in heaven.



Jesus is not an angel, nor an archangel. Jesus Christ is the Lord God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. Jesus is adored as God and has always existed--He has no beginning and is consubstantial with the Father.



blazingthru said:


> If we make it to heaven do you not know we will no longer be known as our earthly names, we will be given new names.  Lets reason for a moment,  Could Jesus be called Jesus when he came for Moses body, No he could not because Jesus was Earths Messiah. That time had not come yet. This information does not lead to salvation and really is just for studying purposes.



Before Jesus became incarnate and was born on earth, He was (and is) God. He was not the archangel Michael.



blazingthru said:


> this majestic and mysterious being, sometimes called Michael, sometimes the angel of the Lord, sometimes the commander of the Lord’s army, veiling His divinity and appearing in the form of a humble angel.



Again, this is Arianism. Jesus Christ is True God, and through the Incarnation He is True God and True Man.


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## blazingthru (May 23, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> An angel is a messenger, a heavenly spirit in God's service. An archangel is a high-ranking angel. We also know that there are fallen or apostate angels (demons), among them Lucifer. Judaism has always recognized Michael and Gabriel as angels (and NEVER confused/identified Michael with God). Christians understood this as well.
> 
> The belief that Michael = Jesus has its roots in an early 4th century heresy known as Arianism.
> 
> ...


 
The Holy Spirit convicts us of all truths, but we can refuse to believe it. We are convicted as soon as we hear it.  Convicted for or against.  If you choose to believe that Michael was not Jesus. That is your choice, you are free to believe what you choose,  I based my belief on the scripture but again this has nothing to do with Salvation. As far as Heresy is concerned I really do not have an opinion. I choose to believe the bible and not man's teachings at all. All men will have to give an account for why they believe what they believe, I hate to find myself short, because I followed after men's teachings.


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## fifi134 (May 23, 2012)

Michael is referred to in Jude verse 9 as an archangel, and is thus a created being. Jesus, on the other hand, came into form as a human being, but He always existed. We know this from John 1:1. John 1 also talks about Christ being there during creation, thus He is not a created being. They are absolutely not the same people.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (May 24, 2012)

This can make a very interesting study spinoff "Who or What are Angels", hierachy of angels and what is their purpose, do they all have wings etc.,


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## Poohbear (May 24, 2012)

blazingthru said:


> It doesn't say he is an Angel, it says ArchAngel but it does not mean what we think it means.  He is not an angel. It is not an opinion, it is not my opinion. We learn who is who by studying the words and how they are interchangeable, or how they apply to both God and Jesus and Michael and Jesus are one in the same.  God calls Jesus God.  The word ‘angel’ is used many ways in the Bible.  King David was called an angel and he was a human.
> The Bible tells us that it is Michael who intercedes for God's people in Daniel 12:1. Jesus is also known as our Intercessor. When this archangel, the general of the Lord's army appeared to Joshua, Joshua took off his shoes and worshipped him.
> We also read in the book of Jude that it is Michael who resurrects Moses. And of course, Jesus is the Resurrection. We also read that the Lord is going to descend with the voice of the archangel, and we know clearly that Jesus is the one who's going to descend. An angel means ‘a messenger’.  Cherubim and seraphim are specific creatures that we often call angels.  Michael, the Archangel, is a title for the highest messenger who is as God.  That’s what that means.  When it says, the Lord Himself comes down from heaven with the voice of the Archangel it means the Lord comes with the voice of the greatest messenger.  Directly from the Greek, that’s what it’s saying.  And if you go to Daniel 12:1 it says: At that time shall Michael stand up, the great Prince that stands for the children of thy people.



blazingthru

Angel = messenger of God, personal helpers

Archangel = a messenger with a higher rank, chief messenger, protectors of entire mankind

Daniel 12:1 is not saying that Michael was the intercessor like Jesus. He just stood up for the children of God when they were in trouble.  

Jesus being our Intercessor means that we can draw near to God through Him. Jesus speaks to God on our behalf. 

Isaiah 53:12 says "He himself bore the sin of many and interceded for the transgressors". Transgressors are basically lawbreakers. 

John 14:6, Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth and the life; no one can come to the Father except through me." 

Michael did not and could not do any of these things that Jesus has done or currently does.

In Jude 1:9, Michael did not resurrect Moses... he disputed about Moses' body with the devil. Disputed means to argue, debate, discuss, etc. Not resurrect (raise from the dead/bring to life).

Just because Michael is mentioned as a chief prince in Daniel 10:13 does not mean he was Jesus. There were a lot of chief princes and great princes back in the bible days. We even have them now in other countries. Princes are just male members of a royal family. Anyone can be that.

Angels and archangels have all types of different tasks that are similar to those of Jesus...they are performers of acts of justice and power, healers, peacemakers, leaders, messengers, keepers, watchers, guardians, and more!

Jesus Christ was MORE than just a mere messenger. He was MORE than all these types of angels combined.  Jesus is LORD and SAVIOR!  None of these angels or archangels were that.


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## Poohbear (May 24, 2012)

blazingthru said:


> It doesn't say he is an Angel, it says ArchAngel but it does not mean what we think it means.  He is not an angel. It is not an opinion, it is not my opinion. We learn who is who by studying the words and how they are interchangeable, or how they apply to both God and Jesus and Michael and Jesus are one in the same.  God calls Jesus God.  The word ‘angel’ is used many ways in the Bible.  King David was called an angel and he was a human.
> *The Bible tells us that it is Michael who intercedes for God's people in Daniel 12:1. Jesus is also known as our Intercessor. When this archangel, the general of the Lord's army appeared to Joshua, Joshua took off his shoes and worshipped him.
> We also read in the book of Jude that it is Michael who resurrects Moses. And of course, Jesus is the Resurrection. We also read that the Lord is going to descend with the voice of the archangel, and we know clearly that Jesus is the one who's going to descend. An angel means ‘a messenger’.  Cherubim and seraphim are specific creatures that we often call angels.  Michael, the Archangel, is a title for the highest messenger who is as God.  That’s what that means.  When it says, the Lord Himself comes down from heaven with the voice of the Archangel it means the Lord comes with the voice of the greatest messenger.  Directly from the Greek, that’s what it’s saying.  And if you go to Daniel 12:1 it says: At that time shall Michael stand up, the great Prince that stands for the children of thy people.*



I see that you got this information from this site: http://www.amazingfacts.org/radio/b...-archive/ctl/playmedia/mid/731/mdid/2274.aspx

Be careful of what you read from random sites that think they know what they are talking about and wanna prove something in the bible that's not even there.

Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael were Archangels... not Jesus Christ.


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## Poohbear (May 24, 2012)

blazingthru said:


> Worshiping the Commander
> In Revelation, Michael is portrayed as leading the heavenly hosts, or armies, in the war against the rebellious Lucifer that took place there. "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels" (Revelation 12:7). Here the term "dragon" is a symbolic name for Satan, the leader of evil (verse 9), so it is very safe to assume that Michael is another name for Jesus, the embodiment and leader of good. But there is more evidence.
> 
> Just as Israel was preparing for its first battle after crossing into the Promised Land, Joshua had an encounter with an unusual warrior. "And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? And the captain of the Lord's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so" (Joshua 5:13-15).
> ...



blazingthru

This Captain of the host of the Lord was NOT St. Michael the Archangel.  No where in Joshua 5 does it even mentioned Michael.  The Captain was God himself as a manifestation of Jesus Christ. Joshua did not fall down and worship Michael, he fell down and worshipped God. Joshua was in preparation as an appointed commander of Israel. He would not take off his shoes and bow down for another being other than God as someone so focused on God.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (May 24, 2012)

Yes, thanks Pooh I've been meaning to ask about the body of Moses being resurrected...


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (May 24, 2012)

It's like saying that Jesus is Melchisedec (sp) I can see similarities but they are not one in the same ...


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## CoilyFields (May 24, 2012)

As I've been taught there are times in the old testament where Jesus appears and is then referred to as THE angel of the lord. (And with the acceptance of worship we know it is Him with Joshua). Remember that in the OT they had not been "introduced " to God the son, at least not by name.
Other times angels did deliver messages and did deeds on behalf if God but they were not Jesus. So Michael and Gabriel were archangels but were not Jesus.


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## auparavant (May 24, 2012)

blazingthru said:


> * When Lazarus was woken from the grave, there was much talk about it. People came to see him, others plotted to kill him. *
> *Matthew 27:51-54*
> *King James Version (KJV)*
> *51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;*
> ...


 

Are you confusing she'ol and paradise or the grave as the literal hell?  Paradise is not the punished side of the beyond.  I think paradise is she'ol, or holding place.  Jesus went there to bring out souls after his sacrifice.  I nkow a lot of people don't believe in purgatory, but it's a holding place of saints that are cleansed from residual sin and its effects (unrepented?) and fully cleansed before they enter heave.  The grave is the holding place of the physical body.  Death is the result of sin for all.  Our bodies die.  There is also a spiritual death and those souls go to the punishing hell or hades.  Dying isn't the end.  Heaven does exist and so does hell, even purgatory.


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## Laela (May 24, 2012)

*Isaiah 9:6*
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, _Prince of Peace_.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (May 24, 2012)

^^That's one of my favourite scriptures


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## Crown (May 25, 2012)

blazingthru said:


> It doesn't say he is an Angel, it says ArchAngel but it does not mean what we think it means.  He is not an angel. It is not an opinion, it is not my opinion. We learn who is who by studying the words and how they are interchangeable, or how they apply to both God and Jesus and Michael and Jesus are one in the same.  God calls Jesus God.  The word ‘angel’ is used many ways in the Bible.  King David was called an angel and he was a human.
> The Bible tells us that it is Michael who intercedes for God's people in Daniel 12:1. Jesus is also known as our Intercessor. When this archangel, the general of the Lord's army appeared to Joshua, Joshua took off his shoes and worshipped him.
> *We also read in the book of Jude that it is Michael who resurrects Moses.* And of course, Jesus is the Resurrection. We also read that the Lord is going to descend with the voice of the archangel, and we know clearly that Jesus is the one who's going to descend. An angel means ‘a messenger’.  Cherubim and seraphim are specific creatures that we often call angels.  Michael, the Archangel, is a title for the highest messenger who is as God.  That’s what that means.  When it says, the Lord Himself comes down from heaven with the voice of the Archangel it means the Lord comes with the voice of the greatest messenger.  Directly from the Greek, that’s what it’s saying.  And if you go to Daniel 12:1 it says: At that time shall Michael stand up, the great Prince that stands for the children of thy people.


No, we don't read what you are saying : you are making assumptions.

Thank you for trying to answer my questions!
No need for me to do what is already done by the ladies.


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## Crown (May 25, 2012)

blazingthru said:


> Does your denomination have an interpretation for why did they leave Enoch at home?
> 
> @Crowne,
> 
> ...


As you are talking about EW, I am amazed by the change made about the interpretation of 1844.

Maybe you are a too young SDA to understand what I am saying.


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## blazingthru (May 26, 2012)

fifi134 said:


> Michael is referred to in Jude verse 9 as an archangel, and is thus a created being. Jesus, on the other hand, came into form as a human being, but He always existed. We know this from John 1:1. John 1 also talks about Christ being there during creation, thus He is not a created being. They are absolutely not the same people.



Yes an ANGEL is a created being, no where in the bible does it say Michael who is like God, an angel.  We assume it because the title, but we have no other proof that Michael is a Angel other then that word Archangel, yet this Michael who is like God does the same thing as Jesus.  Jesus is called Angel of God. it is Jesus who walked with Abraham and discussed that he will soon be a father and it was Jesus who told Abraham that he was going to destroy Sodom. Yet he was called Angel of God. No man,  NO MAN has seen God at no time. But seeing Jesus is seeing God and yet Jesus was called an Angel. We know that he was with God from the very beginning. He is the living word.


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## blazingthru (May 26, 2012)

Poohbear said:


> blazingthru
> 
> Angel = messenger of God, personal helpers
> 
> ...


 *No one said he was less then that. But he is and was the Angel of the Lord and so has that title been given to Michael. *


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## blazingthru (May 26, 2012)

CoilyFields said:


> As I've been taught there are times in the old testament where Jesus appears and is then referred to as THE angel of the lord. (And with the acceptance of worship we know it is Him with Joshua). Remember that in the OT they had not been "introduced " to God the son, at least not by name.
> Other times angels did deliver messages and did deeds on behalf if God but they were not Jesus. So Michael and Gabriel were archangels but were not Jesus.



My apologies I don't recall at no time reading that Gabriel was an Archangel there is only one Chief. So  Gabriel was an Angel but in the text they say the man Gabriel, of course we know he was an Angel. But the humans had no doubt that he was an angel that looked liked a man but when encountered with the Angel of the Lord there was fear and trembling. They all confessed that they were seeing God or felt that they have seen God and they have lived.


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## blazingthru (May 26, 2012)

Poohbear said:


> I see that you got this information from this site: http://www.amazingfacts.org/radio/b...-archive/ctl/playmedia/mid/731/mdid/2274.aspx
> 
> Be careful of what you read from random sites that think they know what they are talking about and wanna prove something in the bible that's not even there.
> 
> Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael were Archangels... not Jesus Christ.



Of course I would not agree, this is actually a great site for formative information that you can sit down and research yourself.  I don't agree that those names mentioned above are  Archangels since it means chief and there is only one Chief.


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## divya (May 26, 2012)

Yes, I do take the Bible literally. Can't wait to join the discussion but am waiting to get my internet installed. The phone isn't going to cut it for this discussion.


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## Shimmie (May 27, 2012)

divya said:


> Yes, I do take the Bible literally. Can't wait to join the discussion but am waiting to get my internet installed. The phone isn't going to cut it for this discussion.



divya... I hear you on the 'phone'.

Typing from my phone takes forever and a day plus a minute.    

I try to type while commuting to/from work, but it seems that I reach my destination before my first sentence is complete.    

And you know how my sentences are... not that they are long or anything like that.


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## divya (May 27, 2012)

Shimmie said:


> divya... I hear you on the 'phone'.
> 
> Typing from my phone takes forever and a day plus a minute.
> 
> ...



Not long at all.   

I don't mind typing so much but cutting and pasting drives me nuts! Lol


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