# Sincere Question



## Godyssey (Mar 26, 2012)

I'd like to preface this by saying I'm agnostic however, I was raised Christian and most of my family are still practicing Christians.

My question is on your opinions of... well, it could be anyone, but I was thinking more specifically of Whitney Houston.

Some in my family are usually very quick to state their opinion (as fact) about where a person goes after they die.  Wether it's heaven or hell.

I think it's cruel to the friends and family members of a recently deceased person, when someone unsolicited blurts out very bluntly, and with absolutely no discretion, "oh, that person went to hell".  

I didn't want to pose this question to my family, but I'm still curious.  Whitney Houston through all of her issues with drugs etc,  has always been a believer in God and refered to herself as a child of God.  She quoted scriptures, obviously loved the lord and accepted him as her God and saviour.  

So even though she was a "sinner" (or commited sin), was she still in your opinion a saved, albeit a tortured soul?  

I'm not judging one way or another, just curious.


----------



## JudithO (Mar 26, 2012)

I dont think anyone knows where Whitney ended up...

BUT

Per the bible(read romans 1 -6) , the consequence and penalty for Whitney's (and my) sins were paid on the cross 2000 yrs ago. Logically speaking, if she reconciled with christ before she died, i would imagine her in heaven? You just don't know. 

All the bible says in order to be saved is to be baptised of water and the spirit, AND believe that Christ has died and paid for our sins already, AND we must follow christ and his ways... trust wholeheartedly even when it makes no logical sense. 

Given all of that, logically, the probability of her making heaven given what we know about her,  even with all her flaws *seem* pretty up there... but again, no one knows...


----------



## Godyssey (Mar 26, 2012)

Yeah, but if you're on drugs, wouldn't it be impossible to follow Christ's ways?  Even if you really love him and are praying to him to give you the strength?   

Just like when you love a person and your addicted.  Sometimes you can't show the person how much you love them because the addiction pretty much rules your life, but that doesn't mean that you don't want to do whats right, or love them any less?


----------



## aribell (Mar 26, 2012)

I don't think we should give opinions about where someone ended up, because only God's judgment matters...and no one can know what transpired in that person's heart and mind before passing away.

At the same time, just saying that I believe in Jesus without repentance from sin is not the kind of faith that reconciles one to God.  This is true from the most famous to the average Joe on the street.

Drug addiction complicates things, as it becomes a physical need for the person and no longer a choice, exactly.  But still both repentance and faith are necessary.


----------



## JudithO (Mar 26, 2012)

No one knows...  the ways of God cannot be comprehended by even the most brilliant mortals...

The love and mercy of God for us knows no bounds and cannot be explained or compared to the relationship between humans. 

Addiction to drugs IMO is much like any demon we struggle with daily.. lying, pornography, fornication, etc

Even if we hurt God 1 million times, if we are truly sorry and repentant for them God (unlike any human) will forgive 1 million + 1 times... 

I think the misconception for some is that being "eligible" for heaven is when we keep striving for perfection in Christ... we all know that's impossible... and God is very aware that no human can be perfect..

IMO.. that's why Christianity is truly unique.... it's not about going to church or reading the bible constantly... it is realizing that you are absolutely nothing without Christ and that NOTHING you do (no matter how hard you try) can save you. Christianity is about truly developing a very personal and trusting relationship with Christ.. and like every relationship, there will be struggles, anger, tears or pain and joy.. etc... it's about trusting 100% that no matter what happens to you good or bad, you are taken care of... the more your relationship with Christ grows, the more you will naturally do things that please him... and the holy spirit will show thru your actions without you even trying... 

Again, nobody knows where Whitney is... but given what I'm learning about Christ daily... ANYONE who truly believes not in their strength but in God's and is repentant of their sins is welcome into the house of God.


----------



## Godyssey (Mar 26, 2012)

^^^ I really like your response.  Thank you.


----------



## Crown (Mar 26, 2012)

Knowing where a person is or will be after death is not human business.

He was such a good Christian! He is in heaven.
Well, can you be so sure? There is a word : hypocrisy. *Only God knows the heart*!
But, maybe it’s okay to think a person is or will be in heaven when he is not.
Anyway, we find comfort in believing this.

But, saying that a person is or will be in hell is judgment, bad judgment.

She was such an evil person! She is in hell.
Well, can you be so sure? There is a word : GRACE.
Are you with her soul with her last breath. How can you know she did not repent?
This is bad to put a person in hell when she is not.

We are not God, He is the Judge.


----------



## Godyssey (Mar 26, 2012)

I'll admit that when I started this thread, I didn't expect such Christian like responses.  Perhaps I've been talking to the wrong Christians in the past, as I thought they were pretty much a representative of all.  I won't go any further into the experiences that I've had and witnessed, but you all have very refreshing in your posts.  

Like you said Crown, "we are not the judge, God is".  Seems like so many people think otherwise.

Also, I've come in this forum a handful of times and although I'm not quite certain of my beliefs, everyone is always helpful and kind.  Thank you.


----------



## LucieLoo12 (Mar 26, 2012)

I am going to just answer this question on a general scale, not just in reference to Whitney Houston


The bible says, Holiness without no man shall see the Lord. We have to be holy to make it in. The bible says we have to have a pure heart in order to see the Lord.

So if the person was holy and the heart was pure before God, and they lived a life before God and was fully dedicated to the Lord, then they will make it in.


----------



## Shimmie (Mar 26, 2012)

Godyssey...

I truly believe that Whitney is with the Lord.   She lost herself; the drugs became her weakness.   Yet this woman never stopped loving God with all of her heart.   

She knew she was wrong with the addictions; she knew it.  She knew that she followed the wrong path in life which snared her into a corner that she never managed to come out of.  

Her consequence was the 'lost' of her life here on earth and the torment of the drugs overpowering her.   

YET... she never stopped loving God.   No matter where this woman went, or what she did, it was apparent that she loved Jesus deep within her heart and she wasn't playing games with it, meaning that it was not for 'show'.   

Whitney didn't hide her sins; she flatly admitted to them and took the blame herself.   

I strongly believe that this woman never missed a day without expressing her love for God; she simply lost her way and couldn't find her way back.   

Drugs are a powerful demon.  They bewitch people and change the chemistry of sound minds.  Drugs destroy the blood which runs through a persons' veins; where the blood used to give life, it's been weakened to the point where it gives death instead. 

There is not one person alive who will ever enter into Heaven without spot, wrinkle or blemish.   The earth is groaning with sin and it has affected each of us from one degree to another.    Yet, but for the Blood of Jesus, who Knew that our sins needed redemption, it's His Blood that covers our sins and makes us presentable to God the Father in Heaven.  

I will never be one to say that Whitney Houston went to hell.   And I was never a fan of hers.     I 'missed' that era of her heights to fame.   Yet, looking at her history, and in prayers for her family, I see a woman who belonged to Jesus all along and is now with Him in Heaven above. 

She didn't go to hell.      She loved God too much to be that far apart from Him.   God loved her too much to lose her soul.


----------



## Shimmie (Mar 26, 2012)

Alicialynn86 said:


> I am going to just answer this question on a general scale, not just in reference to Whitney Houston
> 
> 
> The bible says, Holiness without no man shall see the Lord. We have to be holy to make it in. The bible says we have to have a pure heart in order to see the Lord.
> ...



Yet, none of us are Holy and we never will be.


----------



## Galadriel (Mar 26, 2012)

Shimmie said:


> Yet, none of us are Holy and we never will be.



Of our own effort or merit, we won't be . That is why Christ's sanctifying graces is so awesome, because it cleanses us and makes us holy.


----------



## Crown (Mar 26, 2012)

Shimmie said:


> @Godyssey...
> 
> I truly believe that Whitney is with the Lord.   She lost herself; the drugs became her weakness.   Yet this woman never stopped loving God with all of her heart.
> 
> ...





Shimmie said:


> Yet, none of us are Holy and we never will be.



Like the : _she is in hell_, this also is a questionable point of view.

Why do people like to put someone in heaven or in hell after death.
None of our business!

Putting someone in hell is bad judgment.

Putting someone in heaven?
If this person had a good apparent life : it’s comforting.
If this person had a not so good apparent life : not our business!

Be careful to not watering down the Word and causing someone to be lazy about fighting against their sins? The _God knows my heart_ slogan.

Yes, not for all, but someone can live sinless, because of the perfect Blood and through the effective work of the Holy Spirit. His blood does not just cover our sin, It cleans us, it's the ultimate purpose.


Eph. 5 : 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, *cleansing her* by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself *as a radiant church*, *without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless*.

Rev. 19 : 6 Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting:    “Hallelujah! 
 For our Lord God Almighty reigns. 7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and *his bride has made herself ready*. 
        8  Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.”


----------



## Shimmie (Mar 26, 2012)

Crown said:


> Like the : _she is in hell_, this also is a questionable point of view.
> 
> Why do people like to put someone in heaven or in hell after death.
> None of our business!
> ...



Crown, I'm not watering down God's Word.  It's no secret here, that I will come down without mercy on anyone who thinks that they can 'sneak' by way of the back door.

In no way am I giving anyone a free pass to not overcome and to avoid sin at any cost or measure.    It's still Heaven or Hell.  

In Whitney's case, there are many who want to slam her into hell and I will not be among them.   I still see something different here.   Just because she was an addict doesn't make her hell bound.  And I'm not saying this as a fan of Whitney's as I was not a fan.   Her death did not affect me as it did others who idolized her.    

I'm not going to dispute this with you nor anyone else.  It's not worth it.  The point is that when I look at Whitney Houston, I do not see one who was bound for hell.   The woman crashed and was unable to pull herself back up, and therefore lost her life.     

As humans, 'WE' may not have mercy, but God surely does.  And no, this does not excuse anyone to take the same path or to dishonour God by short changing a standard of holiness.  For even those of us who have a form of Godliness, still fall short...daily.    All that saves us is a repentent heart,  a heart striving moment to moment to do better and not dishonour the God who loves us.   For even in the midst of our sin of being so holy, we err' in that others can't touch us or reach God through us.   

Believe or not, I say this in peace.  Not anger, neither contention, but in peace.  The sin is in each of us.   From the bottom / up.   We all sin and fall short daily in our lives.


----------



## JudithO (Mar 26, 2012)

Crown

The problem with this approach (while your point is valid) is that you are making the assumption that with your own strength, you can choose good over bad. 

That puts Christian's in this non-stop roller coaster of trying to achieve perfection that is impossible simply by our virtue of being human. 

All human beings by nature are sinful... We can only please God with the help of the spirit that dwells in us.. and nothing else. 

*My point: *If you rely not on your abilities, but on the spirit's... Christ will fight your demons with you, and for you (when you have no strength to fight).... 

Romans 7:15-20 (Paul talks about humans being sinful by default)

15 *For I do not understand my own actions. For   I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.* 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with   the law, that it is good. 17 *So now   it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.**18 For I know that nothing good dwells   in me, that is, in my flesh. *For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19   For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 *Now if I do what I do not want,   it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.*


[Romans 8:1-12]


*There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus*.[a] 2 *For the law of   the Spirit of life   has set you[b] free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.* 3 For   God has done what the law,   weakened by the flesh,   could not do.   By sending his own Son   in the likeness of sinful flesh and   for sin,[c] he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that   the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us,   who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For   those who live according to the flesh set their minds on   the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on   the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set   the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is   hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law;   indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 
9 *You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact   the Spirit of God dwells in you. *  Anyone who does not have   the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 *But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.* 11 If the Spirit of   him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus[d] from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies   through his Spirit who dwells in you.


8: 26 - 30


26 *Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For   we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but   the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.** 27 And   he who searches hearts (God) knows what is   the mind of the Spirit, because[g] the Spirit   intercedes for the saints   according to the will of God. *28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together   for good,[h] for   those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he   foreknew he also   predestined   to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be   the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also   justified, and those whom he justified he also   glorified.



Crown said:


> Like the : _she is in hell_, this also is a questionable point of view.
> 
> Why do people like to put someone in heaven or in hell after death.
> None of our business!
> ...


----------



## LucieLoo12 (Mar 26, 2012)

The bible says "Be ye holy for I am holy"

That wasn't a option. Its a commandment. God would have never required something we couldnt do. We do it through the power of the Holy Ghost.

He also says Holiness without no man shall see the Lord. We have to be a holy.

All holy means is pure and set apart for the work of God

*Ephesians 1:4*

King James Version (KJV)

 4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, *that we should be holy and without blame before him in love*


*Colossians 1:22*
King James Version (KJV)

 22In the body of his flesh through death, *to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:*

*This is just a couple of scriptures...*






Shimmie said:


> Yet, none of us are Holy and we never will be.


----------



## Crown (Mar 26, 2012)

judy4all said:


> @Crown
> 
> The problem with this approach (while your point is valid) is that you are making the assumption that *with your own strength*, you can choose good over bad.
> 
> ...



My own strength! Seriously? Who am I?
judy4all did you really take the time to read my post?



Crown said:


> Be careful to not watering down the Word and causing someone to be lazy about fighting against their sins? The _God knows my heart_ slogan.
> 
> *Yes, not for all, but  someone can live sinless, because of the perfect Blood and through the  effective work of the Holy Spirit. His blood does not just cover our  sin, It cleans us, it's the ultimate purpose.*
> 
> ...


----------



## LucieLoo12 (Mar 26, 2012)

If someone is sinning, its not because they have to, its because they choose to. Sin is a choice. Name one sin you HAVE to do to live? The bible say Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil.He came not so we can justify our sin, but so we can be free from it. People dont have to drink, curse, fight, steal, lie, fornicate, envy. Its all a choice. We can overcome these things by the Holy Ghost.




Shimmie said:


> Believe or not, I say this in peace. Not anger, neither contention, but in peace. The sin is in each of us. From the bottom / up. *We all sin and fall short daily in our lives*.


----------



## LucieLoo12 (Mar 26, 2012)

I know the we want to be "kindhearted" and "loving" but we have to let the word be the word.....The bible says let the word be true and every man a liar..we cant just say things to appease ourselves or others. We must speak truth, not opinions or feelings...


*ETA: Just because we say we love God, that isn't enough. The bible says, if we love Him, we will keep his commandments. We show our love to God through WORD and DEED....*


----------



## Crown (Mar 26, 2012)

judy4all said:


> @Crown
> 
> The problem with this approach (while your point is valid) is that you are making the assumption that with your own strength, *you can choose good over bad*.



I will not elaborate on this, but be holy is not just choosing good over bad.

Be holy is having the very life of God in you, from glory to glory, until someone can say in his fullness:
Gal. 2 : 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.

Through all mankind story some people do their best to live a life choosing good over bad, not just Christian, we all have conscience.

Even Cain had the capacity to choose good over bad :
Gen. 4 : 7 If you do what is right,  will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is  crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over  it.”


----------



## JudithO (Mar 26, 2012)

Crown yes... I read your whole post... and especially the line you highlighted above... I wasn't saying because "God knows my heart" I can sin all I want and still be saved. 

In the case of addiction for example, Alicialynn86 I can argue that people are not in their right minds and really do not have the luxury of picking good vs evil because the devil is manifesting himself in them. 

*I* believe that having the strength to always pick good over evil (to the best of our ability) is not something that we can just pick and do... It is strength that develops over years and years of walking and trusting in the Lord. Else, every Christian wants to make heaven... we'll all do good all the time. 

For every time you pick the way of the lord vs the world, it is the spirit that does that... not your own might. 

Now some people have been walking in the spirit longer than others have been... are stronger than others and so it is much easier to pick good over evil... it doesn't make them more righteous than others who have just started walking, growing and trusting... 

Again, all this is just my opinion... and I'm learning everyday so you may not agree....


----------



## Crown (Mar 26, 2012)

judy4all said:


> @Crown yes... I read your whole post... and especially the line you highlighted above... I wasn't saying because "God knows my heart" I can sin all I want and still be saved.


I was not saying that I can be holy with my own strength either.

Dear judy4all, I quoted the post of Shimmie, I did not answer your post.

The _God knows my heart_ you are referring is not about you or Shimmie.
It's a slogan in the vast Christianity.

I appreciate that Shimmie answered to my post although I don't agree with her point of view.

​


----------



## Galadriel (Mar 26, 2012)

Shimmie said:


> For even those of us who have a form of Godliness, still fall short...daily.    All that saves us is a repentent heart,  a heart striving moment to moment to do better and not dishonour the God who loves us.



I understand what you're saying . This is why one of my favorite prayers is "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me...a sinner."

I think what some of us are trying to say is that God's grace through Christ's sacrifice on the Cross not only grants us justification, but also works at cleansing us (interior holiness) aka sanctification.

Sanctification has a goal--perfection. Why? 
Because no one in Heaven is imperfect, or sinful, or flawed. We know this is our ultimate destiny, but we don't head toward it of our own effort or will power, but by cooperating with God's grace.

We definitely fall short while here on Earth (that is why I believe in going to Confession), and that's why it's so important to rely on Christ's grace and the Holy Spirit dwelling in me.


----------



## LadyRaider (Mar 26, 2012)

Many Christians believe that you are saved by grace. We are all sinners, and no one is able to live a perfect life. So Whitney would probably be covered by Grace... Jesus died for her sins a long time ago. But who knows? We don't know what was going on inside her.


----------



## aribell (Mar 26, 2012)

Crown said:


> Be careful to not watering down the Word and *causing someone to be lazy about fighting against their sins? *The _God knows my heart_ slogan.



I see the bolded as important because the fate of one who has already passed on will not be affected one way or the other by what is said here.  The only people who will be impacted by the conclusions reached are those who are still on earth, called to live for God.  So, for _those_ people, what do we say?  Do we tell them that it will be OK in the end if they are overcome by sin?  Or do we warn them like Peter did?  He said, "For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.  For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first, the last state has become worse for them than the first." (2 Pet. 2:19,20)

I think we _all_ have to fear being overtaken by sin, as Scripture says to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.  It's not about putting someone else in hell, it's about staying out of there our own selves.

We have to trust the Lord with the souls of those who have passed on.  We know that He is love, and that He is merciful and faithful and good.  We also know that His ways are not our ways.  Our mercy and grace attempts to be like His, and yet, His love is true, and pure and absolutely good...not just approximately.  What this means in individual situations is in His mind alone.  But when _we_ wake up in the morning we have to be sure what God demands of us as those who claim His name.

The Lord recognizes that we sin, but while we might sin, we do not have to give ourselves over to sin.  We do not surrender to sin, we fight it every day.  And we recognize our culpability when we yield to temptation because we know that "there is no sin save that which is common to man," and that we will not be tempted beyond what we can bear.  There is no sin that we cannot obtain victory over...otherwise our struggle would be in vain.


----------



## Laela (Mar 26, 2012)

God's Word is a Double-Edged Sword. I believe we can live holy lives and not deliberately or consciously sin. There is also this Scripture (in full context):


*1 John 1*
_1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; _
_2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us_
_3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. _
_4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. _
_5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. _
_6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: _
_7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. _
_8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. _
_9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us._


As long as we are wrapped up in our sinful flesh, it's possible to offend the Father, even in our very thoughts, and possibly not know it. There is the sin of omission. - not doing what is right when we are urged by the Holy Spirit to take action. There is aught and unforgiveness, which can creep in the very crevices of our souls. That is why confessing our sins one to another is important.

David, a man after God's own heart, who sought God's face, constantly asked God to search his soul. Daily renewal of spirit, body, mind and soul is what keeps us consecrated, set apart and living Holy lives. God delights in us when we are aware of our sinful nature but are not subjected to it.

*Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.*
*Psalm 139:23-24 (KJV)*




Alicialynn86 said:


> If someone is sinning, its not because they have to, its because they choose to. Sin is a choice. Name one sin you HAVE to do to live? The bible say Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil.He came not so we can justify our sin, but so we can be free from it. People dont have to drink, curse, fight, steal, lie, fornicate, envy. Its all a choice. We can overcome these things by the Holy Ghost.


----------



## LucieLoo12 (Mar 27, 2012)

agree. The point I am making is that we do not have to STAY in a life of sin. The scripture said if we confess our sins, he will forgive and CLEANSE. As God shows us overselves and what we need to work on, we confess and repent (turn away).

_9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us._

_The scriptured said sinn-ed, meaning past tense. Meaning of course we all have sinned in our ignorance to the gospel. It doesn't say, If we say we are not sinning, we make Him a liar._

_God doesn't want to just keep forgiving us over and over and over, but He wants to be free. Sin is bondage. The bible says should we continue to sin that grace may abound?God forbid. _

_I do understand that Christians may stumble, or get caught in snares., but to keep habitually and deliberately keep sinning...no_



Laela said:


> God's Word is a Double-Edged Sword. I believe we can live holy lives and not deliberately or consciously sin. There is also this Scripture (in full context):
> 
> 
> *1 John 1*
> ...


----------



## Laela (Mar 27, 2012)

Alicialynn86, did you consider Verse 8? That's why I'd posted the entire chapter.... you've picked only the last two verses to make your point. Because our very emotions and feelings can blind us from truth, the deception comes by denying the existence of any sin in our hearts.


----------



## SummerSolstice (Mar 27, 2012)

It seems that there is an assumption that one can go about their lives with out sin. 
We can sin and not even know. 
How about our thoughts? I know people aren't just walking around never having a sinful thought.
There's no way to track these things either. No apps for your phone or ipad... nothing.
Only Christ can make this decision... why do we keep debating this?
Obviously we should be like Christ but we will never be Him. We can follow His guidelines but regardless of who we are, they will still be broken.
Can we rest in His sovereignty in the CF now and leave the judgement to Christ?


----------



## LucieLoo12 (Mar 27, 2012)

Well if my emotions and feelings are leading me to not want to do and justify sin, well Glory! 

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 

I agree with the scripture! But did you read my entire post? I  said God will show us our error and what we need to need work on, and be delievered from, but what I am saying is that we do not have to STAY in sin..We are to be conformed to the image of Christ.


----------



## LucieLoo12 (Mar 27, 2012)

Why do we always think of "judging" when we talk about the word of God? Can we talk about God in His fullness? Or should we just talk about things that sound "nice".

We can control what we meditate on. Paul said he brings his body under subjection. We have control over what we do. The bible even tells us what to think on. Thats why we need the Spirit of God....to help us to mortify the deeds and works of our flesh. *The bible says to cast down wicked imaginations!! *

We wont ever be like Christ??? Thats not biblical. I can show you multiple scriptures where we are ordained to be formed into the image of Christ.

You say we will always break His guidelines?? So God made rules knowing we couldn't keep them?? If we are walking in transgression against the word of God, that is our personal failure, but we can't set that standard that low for every Christian. They are Chrisitans that are walking upright before God and living His commandments. If you are struggling with transgression, dont say "we"....dont speak generally.The bible says God can keep us from falling, it didnt say we have to live a life of falling....






SummerSolstice said:


> It seems that there is an assumption that one can go about their lives with out sin.
> We can sin and not even know.
> How about our thoughts? I know people aren't just walking around never having a sinful thought.
> There's no way to track these things either. No apps for your phone or ipad... nothing.
> ...


----------



## Laela (Mar 27, 2012)

I just re-read your post...can you explain this further?


nicola.kirwan said:


> I think we _all_ have to fear being overtaken by sin, as Scripture says to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.  It's not about putting someone else in hell, it's about staying out of there our own selves.


----------



## auparavant (Mar 27, 2012)

It's been said that G-d has a special mercy on those with drug addictions.  You can't be all there and do drugs to that state.  He knows.  We trust in His mercy.


----------



## sunnysmyler (Mar 27, 2012)

Who of us here do not sin......not one of us!!! 

Through the Holy Spirit we are able to at times overcome sin, yet to be without blame is a promise to come.....what we are experiencing now is a foretaste of what we will have in full measure when we are transformed fully into beings who will always obey, when He writes it on our hearts and puts it in our minds! 

(Hebrews 10:19) "This is the new covenant I will make with my people on that day, [fn] says the LORD: I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds (this hasn't happend yet, key word "*On That Day")*



 (Ezekiel 36: 25-27)

v.25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. Your filth will be washed away, and you will no longer worship idols

v.26 And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart.

When we have the new heart that God gives us, we will then ALWAYS obey until then we only have it in a small measure because of sin.

v.27 And I will put my Spirit in you so that you will follow my decrees and be careful to obey my regulations.

This is why we have the hope and the promises of what Christ did on that tree!  
John 14: 27  I am leaving you with a gift--peace of mind and heart. And the peace I give is a gift the world cannot give. So don't be troubled or afraid

When do we get to have peace??? Yes we struggle, you think God didn't know that, of course he did that's why we have Jesus. Its not about giving a pass to sin, but you have to be very careful when you are "Judging v/s discerning" someone elses sins. 

Remember God knew that we would judge that's why he said in 
Luke 6:42 How can you think of saying, 'Friend, [fn] let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye,' when you can't see past the log in your own eye? Hypocrite! First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend's eye.


----------



## SummerSolstice (Mar 27, 2012)

Alicialynn86 said:


> Well if my emotions and feelings are leading me to not want to do and justify sin, well Glory!
> 
> 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
> 
> I agree with the scripture! But did you read my entire post? I  said God will show us our error and what we need to need work on, and be delievered from, but what I am saying is that we do not have to STAY in sin..We are to be conformed to the image of Christ.



I browsed through the posts... I can't read long posts right now at work  but I will be sure to do so later...
I just thought we already talked about this in that other thread... 
I agree we don't HAVE to stay in sin... that thought is a cop-out... but at the same time I think everyone will still sin, no matter how hard they try not to we are still sinners. 
I will read more carefully this afternoon Alicialynn86


----------



## aribell (Mar 27, 2012)

Laela said:
			
		

> I just re-read your post...can you explain this further?



When I said that we ought to fear being overtaken by sin I meant that we should fear the eventual consequences of giving ourselves over to sin, surrendering to its dominance over us.

I keep encountering people who, when confronted with their sin, say something like, well everyone has their vice, no one is perfect.  But there's a difference between not being perfect and fighting hard against it, and not being perfect and just saying "oh well" to the sin we know is there.  Especially given the reality of demons, I don't think sin is static.  We are either treading the devil underfoot, or he is trampling us underfoot.

I am not sinless and thank God for His daily mercy; but I do fear what would be my ultimate end were I to one day stop confessing and repenting, to stop asking for both His forgiveness and strength to change.  If that happened I would still be able to talk about Jesus because once I followed Him...but I would be like a phantom, only a shadow or memory of the spiritual life that once filled me.


----------



## JudithO (Mar 27, 2012)

I hear what you say.. I agree with some... "You" can control what you do to some extent, but certainly not all as others have pointed out above. 

We are all striving to be like Christ... but NO MAN is ever going to be sinless... Impossible by virtue of being human... In that sense, it is not possible to be exactly like Christ... but we will continue to strive to live according to his ways. 

I find your views somewhat extreme... and this is not against you directly, but your expectations of what a true christian should be like are somewhat unrealistic.. With our humanity comes sin, mistakes, victories and defeats... Receiving Christ doesn't mean will always automatically have the power to choose good over evil (or even be aware that what you chose was evil when you thought it was good).... And are 100% immune to the devil.... I know I thought like that for a long time, and when I fell off the trail, it was almost impossible for me to get back on... 

Simply acknowledging that you are human and a sinner by default helps you forgive yourself and others, and pick yourself back up however many times you fall because you will fall. 

Many Christians that have an all or nothing attitude towards Christianity 

1. Remain down after they fall because they cannot forgive themselves and let and Christ back it... 

2. Turn off other non-Christians from coming to Christ because their views are practically impossible to live up to. 

Please do not take this as a post against you... because we are all here to help each other. I say this just in general. 

I'm just saying to you that while I agree with somethings that you are saying (cos they are true based on scripture)... living as a Christian is not so cut throat, and black and white as you make it seem. I really really hope and pray that you do not find anything I said offensive or negative towards you... please don't cos I don't want to start anything. 



Alicialynn86 said:


> Why do we always think of "judging" when we talk about the word of God? Can we talk about God in His fullness? Or should we just talk about things that sound "nice".
> 
> We can control what we meditate on. Paul said he brings his body under subjection. We have control over what we do. The bible even tells us what to think on. Thats why we need the Spirit of God....to help us to mortify the deeds and works of our flesh. *The bible says to cast down wicked imaginations!! *
> 
> ...


----------



## SummerSolstice (Mar 27, 2012)

auparavant said:


> It's been said that G-d has a special mercy on those with drug addictions.  You can't be all there and do drugs to that state.  He knows.  We trust in His mercy.



His grace is here for all of us. He knows how evil the world is and everyone's fight against it... If we are not equipped with all of the tools it is easy to fall prey to the tricks of Satan. This does NOT erase our salvation... if it did, how would any of us have a testimony?


----------



## LucieLoo12 (Mar 27, 2012)

@judy4all

By no means at all, do I find your post attacking. I don't mind at all discussing.

But when you look at scripture after scripture that shows the believer that you can live a life with out sin, and then I keep hearing we all have to sin..I just find it....well.....perplexing.

This isn't mine words, but its the word of God. We say all the time how Jesus is sooo powerful and mighty and there isn't nothing to hard for Him. So this same powerful Jesus isn't able to free you from smoking, cursing, anger, lust, lying..sin....??? The bible says Christ came to us as an example of how we should live. Am I saying that a Christian is infalliable and can't make a mistake or fall? Of course not. But what I am saying is that sin is choice. If a Christian does fall or stumble, its not because the Spirit of God couldn't help them, its because they choose to commit to sin. God told the Children of Israel, "This day I set before you life and death, you choose". So yes, sin is a choice. I don't have to commit sin to live. The devil can't twist my arm and make me do anything, Jesus told me he has given me ALL power of the enemy. My flesh may want to do things but it can't make me do anything either,thats why the bible says I must mortify the deeds of my flesh, and when I am in the flesh I can't please God.

So to say that I will always struggle with sin....no . That God against the word of God.


*Romans 6*
*Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: *

*9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. *
*10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. *
*11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. *
*12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. *
*13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. *
*14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. *
*15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. *
*16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? **17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. *


*I think people are just misunderstanding me. All day long I get tempted to sin....whether it be to respond in the wrong manner, get an attitude, whatever....BUT I have a choice to whether I yield to that temptation. Just because I am tempted doesn't mean I sinned. Jesus was tempted. The devil will tempt us and will continue to tempt us. Thats his job. But to say I HAVE TO yeild to it.... No ma'am. I have power and dominion over sin. I have the Spirit of God that constrains me. Can I say I am perfect in every area? Nope. As God shows me what to work on and mortify, I do. I do not make excuses for sin .I striving with everything I have to get to the place of holiness. I get it right. I repent, not just say God forgive me and do it over and over over again...but I turn away from the things God doesn't like.*

*People may say I'm extreme, but thats fine too. On the last day, I would rather have more than enough than not enough*

*Let me just end this post with the last scripture...*


*1 Peter 4:18*
And if the righteous *scarcely* be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?



So if we all are sinners, where will we be ? Why is the ungodly and sinners catergorized together, but yet seperately from the righteous???


*ETA:The bible says the wages of sin is death, so if we all sinning then..............*


judy4all said:


> I hear what you say.. I agree with some... "You" can control what you do to some extent, but certainly not all as others have pointed out above.
> 
> We are all striving to be like Christ... but NO MAN is ever going to be sinless... Impossible by virtue of being human... In that sense, it is not possible to be exactly like Christ... but we will continue to strive to live according to his ways.
> 
> ...


----------



## Poohbear (Mar 27, 2012)

Shimmie said:


> Yet, none of us are Holy and we never will be.



Not true. The devil is a lie.


----------



## JudithO (Mar 27, 2012)

The wages of sin IS death..... but Christ has paid that price already... If Christ didn't die... we would have all been subject to that death.... That's why before Christ came... there was the law of Moses that people had to abide to... After Christ came and died, he took all our sins and paid the price - death (that's why he went to hell)... and we are no longer subject to the penalty and consequence of sin (even though we are still human and our flesh is sinful by nature).. Please read Romans Chapters 1 - 8... this is where I base my explanation on. 

God's blessings.


----------



## auparavant (Mar 27, 2012)

Back to the psychological component of being a human being because we are many dimensional, not flat.  G-d considers the entire package of the human being and we do ourselves a ETA:disservice when we ignore the psychological makeup of the human person.  It's all involved in addictive behaviors of many kinds.  There is a line crossed in many addictive personalities where they are not able to control nor recognize "sin" regarding that behavior.  That's why a grave sin requires full knowledge and consent.  We don't have to sin but given the nature of fallen man, we do know that we will sin. If our will is in line with G-d's, then we bring our natural selves under submission to Him and reform our lives and actions.  If we fall, it's grace that brings us back into a right relationship with G-d.  But we all sin..everyone.


----------



## Laela (Mar 27, 2012)

Thanks for explaining... I tend to disagree. We ought not be in a place where we fear being being overtaken by sin.  That nullifies the freedom in Christ, in which there is no condemnation, even from ourselves ..to be subjected to guilt and shame. We are either living in fear or in Love. If we cannot live in this freedom, it means we are trying to live a sinless life of our own will and it would be difficult to forgive ourselves should we fail.  Condemnation is not conviction.  

Ever get convicted by the Holy Spirit of something you ever did/say/thought? That means, the offense had already taken place and you didn't even know it! We get convicted by the Holy Spirit when we did/say/thought something we even didn't realize offended God. He is our Guide. Correcting ourselves by submitting to the Holy Spirit is what is critical. It's a daily renewal process....so long as we are on planet earth.  








nicola.kirwan said:


> *When I said that we ought to fear being overtaken by sin I meant that we should fear the eventual consequences of giving ourselves over to sin, surrendering to its dominance over us.
> *
> I keep encountering people who, when confronted with their sin, say something like, well everyone has their vice, no one is perfect.  But there's a difference between not being perfect and fighting hard against it, and not being perfect and just saying "oh well" to the sin we know is there.  Especially given the reality of demons, I don't think sin is static.  We are either treading the devil underfoot, or he is trampling us underfoot.
> 
> I am not sinless and thank God for His daily mercy; but I do fear what would be my ultimate end were I to one day stop confessing and repenting, to stop asking for both His forgiveness and strength to change.  If that happened I would still be able to talk about Jesus because once I followed Him...but I would be like a phantom, only a shadow or memory of the spiritual life that once filled me.


----------



## Laela (Mar 27, 2012)

It could be misunderstandings, yes...

But I will say this... anything extreme is not something to be proud of. God is a God of balance. Jesus expressed Righteous indignation, which is not a sin. He didn't go to those whose unbeliefs got Him to marveling, yet He was kind, gentle and loving. At times He spoke firm, at other times He spoke tender, always being in tuned with the spirit of the persons he related to. He always exhibited the Fruit of the Spirit. One thing Jesus was not was extreme.

What I am saying concerning sin is... so long as we are in this corruptible body, there will be flaws, mistakes are likely...not that we CHOOSE to make mistakes or CHOOSE to sin. You are certainly misunderstanding me. I agree the wages of sin is death. But there is also the Blood of Jesus, God's Grace and Mercy and we must rely on Him and not our own will to be blameless in His Eyes. That is not an excuse to sin, it's reality.

The Word of God, the incorruptible seed, is there for us to consume and He becomes a part of us, to keep the flesh in check. That is why we are to walk in the Spirit of God and not in the flesh. No one here, definitely not me...said we HAVE to sin. That requires premeditation. What I'm taking about is acknowledging that we live a fleshly body in which incorruptible Seed is planted. We still must die and shed this body, even though it is the Temple of the Holy Spirit. I hope I'm more clear.












Alicialynn86 said:


> @j
> *I think people are just misunderstanding me. All day long I get tempted to sin....whether it be to respond in the wrong manner, get an attitude, whatever....BUT I have a choice to whether I yield to that temptation. Just because I am tempted doesn't mean I sinned. Jesus was tempted. The devil will tempt us and will continue to tempt us. Thats his job. But to say I HAVE TO yeild to it.... No ma'am. I have power and dominion over sin. I have the Spirit of God that constrains me. Can I say I am perfect in every area? Nope. As God shows me what to work on and mortify, I do. I do not make excuses for sin .I striving with everything I have to get to the place of holiness. I get it right. I repent, not just say God forgive me and do it over and over over again...but I turn away from the things God doesn't like.*
> 
> *People may say I'm extreme, but thats fine too. On the last day, I would rather have more than enough than not enough*
> ...


----------



## loolalooh (Mar 27, 2012)

Edited: re-reading it.


----------



## loolalooh (Mar 27, 2012)

Okay, after reading some of the posts, this seems to have transformed into a debate about whether we can or cannot stop sinning.  *My question is does the answer matter?*  My answer, be it "yes" or "no", will not get me into heaven.  Isn't it more important that we all strive, via God's grace, not to give into sin (The book of Romans)?  That we know that God affords us an escape from temptation (1 Corinthians)?  That by Christ, the power of sin is broken (Romans)?  That is something we all agree on, I hope.  That is something we should be pushing, imo.


----------



## Poohbear (Mar 27, 2012)

loolalooh said:


> Okay, after reading some of the posts, this seems to be a debate about whether we can or cannot stop sinning.  *My question is does the answer matter?*  My answer, be it "yes" or "no", will not get me into heaven.  Isn't it more important that we all strive, via God's grace, not to give into sin (The book of Romans)?  That we know that God affords us an escape from temptation (1 Corinthians)?  That by Christ, the power of sin is broken (Romans)?  That is something we all agree on, I hope.  That is something we should be pushing, imo.


loolalooh

This is the key: We cannot rely on our physical goodness to get to Heaven. We must rely on God's grace and Jesus' sacrifice on the cross for the punishment of our sins of ignorance. We will only suffer earthly consequences from physical sins which ultimately will end in the death of our physical bodies, not our souls. Whenever we do feel like physical sin is going to put us in Hell, we risk our spiritual salvation because we are trying to rely on ourselves to save us instead of Jesus Christ.


----------



## SummerSolstice (Mar 27, 2012)

If we are to claim that we don't sin, then we have nowhere to improve. How about our temples?
How about the Christians who are over eaters but then they want to point fingers at cheaters and homosexuals? 
I saw someone said that everyone has their vice... That is reality! 
Even if you get tempted and you don't yield to the temptation... since it is temptation I am certain that even for a nanosecond "the flesh" debates it. If not, it wouldn't be a temptation.
There was sin in that nanosecond. If there was no sin then there would be no temptation.
It is hard to explain myself lol.


----------



## LucieLoo12 (Mar 27, 2012)

I am not saying I am extreme. What I am saying if other people think I am extreme I am fine with that. I dont have anything to prove to anyone on this site. I personally think its always more I could do with my devotion, deeper depths and higher expections to meet. I never feel like I have arrived or I am fine where I am.  I was saying that I would rather be overly careful about my walk with, than be lukewarm with it.



Laela said:


> It could be misunderstandings, yes...
> 
> But I will say this... anything extreme is not something to be proud of. God is a God of balance. Jesus expressed Righteous indignation, which is not a sin. He didn't go to those whose unbeliefs got Him to marveling, yet He was kind, gentle and loving. At times He spoke firm, at other times He spoke tender, always being in tuned with the spirit of the persons he related to. He always exhibited the Fruit of the Spirit. One thing Jesus was not was extreme.
> 
> ...


----------



## LucieLoo12 (Mar 27, 2012)

Couldnt have said it better 




loolalooh said:


> Okay, after reading some of the posts, this seems to have transformed into a debate about whether we can or cannot stop sinning. *My question is does the answer matter?* My answer, be it "yes" or "no", will not get me into heaven. Isn't it more important that we all strive, via God's grace, not to give into sin (The book of Romans)? That we know that God affords us an escape from temptation (1 Corinthians)? *That by Christ, the power of sin is broken* (Romans)? That is something we all agree on, I hope. That is something we should be pushing, imo.


----------



## Poohbear (Mar 27, 2012)

Alicialynn86 - I do not think you are extreme. I understand what you are saying in regards to sin.


----------



## LucieLoo12 (Mar 27, 2012)

I kinda dont understand your post...sorry


But there is ALWAYS rooms to improve. As a Christian God is always showing you what areas you need to grow up in, whether it be naturally or spiritually. No sin is greater than the other. The liar is just as bad as the child molester.Maybe not in the eyes of society, but in the eyes of God sin is sin.




SummerSolstice said:


> If we are to claim that we don't sin, then we have nowhere to improve. How about our temples?
> How about the Christians who are over eaters but then they want to point fingers at cheaters and homosexuals?
> I saw someone said that everyone has their vice... That is reality!
> Even if you get tempted and you don't yield to the temptation... since it is temptation I am certain that even for a nanosecond "the flesh" debates it. If not, it wouldn't be a temptation.
> ...


----------



## LucieLoo12 (Mar 27, 2012)

Thanks! I know the "sin" topic can be touchy.Sometimes people think I am saying, As a Christian you wont ever sin...or you or infallible to sin. But what I am saying is sin is choice...we don't have to commit it.If people want to commit sin, well thats them, but I don't like when people bring in scripture justifying sin.




Poohbear said:


> @Alicialynn86 - I do not think you are extreme. I understand what you are saying in regards to sin.


----------



## aribell (Mar 27, 2012)

I think we may have come across this point in another thread.  I don't think that what I said was anything more than the fear of God.  Sometimes people don't like to hear people say that they have the fear of the Lord, and yet we are told over and over that the fear of the Lord is a good and right thing to have.

I was careful to say fearing the _consequences_ of giving ourselves over to sin.  I did not say fearing that one day we might accidentally fall into sin.  The fear of the Lord will lead one to think on the consequences of living a life of sin and living a life that displeases Him.  We can choose to sin; and generally, continually choosing to sin involves putting the idea of God's holiness out of one's mind, at least for a while.  

I don't feel condemnation.  But there are too many exhortations in Scripture warning believers to hold fast in zeal and perseverance and watchfulness.  To recognize actual danger is not to operate in one's own strength.  The danger is real, not a result of spiritual anxiety.  God gives all strength, but He still asks 100% of us.  Hebrews 2:1,2; 1 Peter 5:8; Galatians 6:7; 2 Peter 2:20; Hebrews 10:26...are a handful of verses that come to mind.  I think that whatever I said, the apostles said all the more.

Perhaps I'd put it this way.  God's grace is all sufficient, but when we mess up it's not because God's grace wasn't sufficient, it was because we did not abide in Him. _When we abide in Him_, all is well.  When we do not, all is not well and we do not have the strength to overcome sin.  But abiding in Him is not automatic for believers.  To abide in Him perfectly is what we grow in daily.  But because it is possible to not abide in Him, we are exhorted to be fervent in seeking Him *lest* we not abide in Him and cease to have victory over the flesh. 




Laela said:


> Thanks for explaining... I tend to disagree. We ought not be in a place where we fear being being overtaken by sin.  That nullifies the freedom in Christ, in which there is no condemnation, even from ourselves ..to be subjected to guilt and shame. We are either living in fear or in Love. If we cannot live in this freedom, it means we are trying to live a sinless life of our own will and it would be difficult to forgive ourselves should we fail.  Condemnation is not conviction.
> 
> Ever get convicted by the Holy Spirit of something you ever did/say/thought? That means, the offense had already taken place and you didn't even know it! We get convicted by the Holy Spirit when we did/say/thought something we even didn't realize offended God. He is our Guide. Correcting ourselves by submitting to the Holy Spirit is what is critical. It's a daily renewal process....so long as we are on planet earth.


----------



## sidney (Mar 28, 2012)

My Aunt called me when she heard about Witney Houston's death and it had a profound effect on her.  One because she is a new believer and has backslidden into sin.  And two is because she is around Witney Houston's age.  For her, it was a time of reflection about her own sin.  She's still here, Houston's death was something to reflect on to give her the will to deal with her own sin.  We are all still here as it has been pointed out in this thread. There are scriptures of those who have fallen into sin, King Solomon, countless Kings in 2 Chronicles.  As it has been stated, the wages of sin is death.  Death is a time of reflection.  Death from cocaine use is not God's will.  I think the important thing is to recognize that there is an enemy out there who is roaring around like a lion seeking to destroy whom he will.  *He want's to steal, kill, and destroy! * We are not powerless against sin, we have weapons.  We must not forget that there are forces that want to keep us under.  God is full of mercy and full of love, but also full of justice.  We can't separate any of his qualities.  He want's us free, and free indeed!  He does not want us in bondage to sin.  He want's us to stay watchful and prayerful, and to be overcomers! 

@Laela, I love the 1 John 1 scripture.  Yes, we are all sinners.  Not one of us is without sin, but verse 9 says, if we confess our sins *he is faithful to cleanse of ALL unrighteousness.  Pursuing righteousness takes a lifetime.*  God is constantly at work in each of us, exposing the filth.  When we recognize our mess, we have to repent, change it through the spirits power and move on.  It's in the believers interest to stay on their face until God delivers him from His or Her sin. But the struggles we dealt with yesterday should not be a snare for us today.  If they are, we need to put our weapons on!  We have the power to overcome sin!  We are not defeated!  As someone mentioned, we have the power to trample demons through his name, not succumb to him.  We have dominion.  We have to recognize our abilities through the power of they holy spirit.  *We go to glory to glory.*  We should be moving in a positive direction, accelerating, not decelerating and not staying in the same place.    

No one is perfect, but he says, "Be ye perfect."  No one is holy, but he says "Be ye holy."  Why would he say this, if this is not true?  He gave us the admonition to be constantly perfecting ourselves.  Daily crucifying the flesh.  I don't want to be the same person I was last year, I want to be transformed.  The only way that can happen, is if I stay in the presence of the one that can transform.  I don't want to be unforgiving, selfish, complaining, unmerciful, doing the same things I was doing a year ago and never encountering that transforming power to be converted into his image...I want to truly be transformed, not in bondage of sin.  That's the only way I can go from "glory to glory"  have have to get in his presence so his glory can rise upon me (Isaiah 60:1).  We all have sinned, but we have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).  When God exposes my mess, and believe me he does,(and often!).    Because I can't come into his presence and think he isn't going to change me.  I told this before, but the first time I ever heard God speak, he told me to get rid of my idols!   God is a loving God, and because he is loving he wants us set free from bondage.  He wants us walking like a righteous man (or woman lol).  We have to actively pursue this thing.  The word says, resist the devil and he will flee!  Resist him.  I was just about to post a thread on this, will post it now.  Hopefully it will be shorter than this post.   *prays for the gift of brevity*


----------



## Laela (Mar 28, 2012)

sidney, there was a reason why I'd posted 1 John in its full context. The entire chapter teaches on the requirement to walk a holy walk, while cautioning against self-righteousness.   A believer's best days  is mixed with "sin", so yes it is a LIFETIME of abiding in Christ. We are overcomers and no sin has no power in the life of a Believer. I am not espousing at all that sin has power in a believer's life. 

My position in the first place was about _consciousness_. A righteousness-conscious mind is free from the consciousness of sin. THAT IS ALL I AM SAYING.  If you or Alicialynn still do not understand, then I ask that we just agree to disagree. I'm not angry but clearly there is too much effort on my part to try to explain. I have no interest in being right.   





sidney said:


> @Laela, I love the 1 John 1 scripture.  Yes, we are all sinners.  Not one of us is without sin, but verse 9 says, if we confess our sins *he is faithful to cleanse of ALL unrighteousness.  Pursuing righteousness takes a lifetime.*  God is constantly at work in each of us, exposing the filth.  When we recognize our mess, we have to repent, change it through the spirits power and move on.  It's in the believers interest to stay on their face until God delivers him from His or Her sin. But the struggles we dealt with yesterday should not be a snare for us today.  If they are, we need to put our weapons on!  We have the power to overcome sin!  We are not defeated!  As someone mentioned, we have the power to trample demons through his name, not succumb to him.  We have dominion.  We have to recognize our abilities through the power of they holy spirit.  *We go to glory to glory.*  We should be moving in a positive direction, accelerating, not decelerating and not staying in the same place.






That is a false accusation, and I forgive you for saying that. 



Alicialynn86 said:


> Thanks! I know the "sin" topic can be touchy.Sometimes people think I am saying, As a Christian you wont ever sin...or you or infallible to sin. But what I am saying is sin is choice...we don't have to commit it.If people want to commit sin, well thats them, *but I don't like when people bring in scripture justifying sin*.


----------



## sidney (Mar 28, 2012)

Thanks @Laela,  I understand.  I know you were just trying to let everyone know that  none of us were without sin, and that is very important.  And you want  to make sure that everyone knows that the righteousness must not be our  own.  Thanks for clarifying.  I just wanted to add that going from glory  to glory part.  I was trying to expound on what you were saying to  emphasize that we are eventually overcome, in case someone thought that  we get stuck based on the scripture that we are without sin.  I  apologize if it came out the wrong way.  

ETA:  I was not trying to oppose what you were saying, I was trying to "piggy-back" and expound on it.  Sorry if it came off as something different.


----------



## Shimmie (Mar 28, 2012)

Laela said:


> sidney, there was a reason why I'd posted 1 John in its full context.
> 
> *The entire chapter teaches on the requirement to walk a holy walk, while cautioning against self-righteousness.
> 
> ...



Completely on point... 

I haven't been able to read the most recent posts, however this one stood out to me.


----------



## auparavant (Mar 28, 2012)

I understood some of you to mean to walk up that hill constantly and if fallen, get back up.  I also understood you to mean that we should not have anxiety over attempting to be perfect.  To me, seeking Him doesn't mean overzealous examination to the point of either self-righteousness or making comparisons to others' lives.  I think you, like me, are saying that it's the desire of abiding in Him that constitutes seeking Him and that it is a process.  I don't have undue anxiety over sin.  I used to, but I gave that up quite a bit ago.  If I sin, I sin.  I know where to go and I eventually know how to listen.  I also come to understand the consequences but I also experience the graces.  I live this life daily, moment-by-moment, and choose not to be afraid of being human.  I try and not commit mortal sins (diff. in a sexless life) as those are most avoidable.  As for venial sins, those are the ones people tend to nitpick in themselves and in others when they avoid the plank to view the splinter.  It's a process, you will sin.  He wrote the gospel EXACTLY how it was meant to be written and He allowed it to be interpreted generally exactly the way He meant it to be.  Anxiety is never good and lukewarmness is bad, we all know.  But there is a difference between temporary failures and a life's choice on not caring.  It might be a fine line, but there are opposite sides of that.  No, I'm not advocating not seeking Him deeply.  But having anxiety over that and looking at everybody else's lives is actually keeping anybody from introspection and healing.  It's a blind shield.


----------



## LucieLoo12 (Mar 28, 2012)

Laela

Ummmm , that statement was a general statement about when I have the convo about sin with people period, I wasn't just referring to LHCF,so its not a false accusation, so no need to forgive anything. Please dont assume that the statement was about you because it wasn't 



Laela said:


> That is a false accusation, and I forgive you for saying that.


----------



## Crown (Mar 28, 2012)

Laela said:


> @Alicialynn86, did you consider Verse 8? That's why I'd posted the entire chapter.... you've picked only the last two verses to make your point. Because our very emotions and feelings can blind us from truth, the deception comes by denying the existence of any sin in our hearts.





Alicialynn86 said:


> Well if my emotions and feelings are leading me to not want to do and justify sin, well Glory!
> 
> *8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
> *
> I agree with the scripture! But did you read my entire post? I  said God will show us our error and what we need to need work on, and be delievered from, but what I am saying is that we do not have to STAY in sin..We are to be conformed to the image of Christ.



@Laela, correct me if I am wrong, but I understand Verse 8 like this :
If we say that we are sinless as humans (Christ, The man, was/is sinless), we deceive ourselves.
Because if we say that we are sinless, we are saying that we don't need to come to Christ to be cleansed, we don't need salvation.

If not, there would be contradiction with 1 Jn. 3 :

1Jn. 3 : 4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 *No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. * 7 *Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous*. 8  The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has  been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was  to destroy the devil’s work. 9  *No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed  remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born  of God.* 10 *This is how we  know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are*:  Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone  who does not love their brother and sister. 
 
ETA : Sorry Laela, I did not read your post saying that's all you are saying before posting. No need to answer to my post.


----------



## Galadriel (Mar 28, 2012)

Alicialynn86 said:


> But when you look at scripture after scripture that shows the believer that you can live a life with out sin, and then I keep hearing we all have to sin..I just find it....well.....perplexing.



I am enjoying your posts  (as well as Nicola's and Laela's)

I agree with you. I think depending on a person's theological/Biblical understanding, they may believe that sinlessness is a strictly divine quality and not a human one.

However they forget that the first humans (before the Fall) were sinless, the holy angels who never fell from grace are sinless, and all the saints in Heaven are sinless.

Humans on earth sin not because it's intrinsic to being human, but because we are born into this world broken, less than what we *should* actually be (we weren't meant to sin or fall from grace, but did so through free will).

This is why Christ instructs His Church to preach the Gospel and baptize (thus restoring the grace we were deprived of through sin). With this new life of grace in Christ, in being the temple of the Holy Spirit, we *can* overcome sin before we die, but this is only possible through Christ's power and His sanctifying grace.

Our holiness is not only legal (i.e., God declaring or viewing us as holy), but also actual (i.e., sanctification, interior holiness).


----------



## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Mar 31, 2012)

I can't accept that the great and mighty God is in capable of breaking strongholds off our lives, the word does not lie ...It is not his desire that we be held captive to any kind of addiction ...


----------



## Rainbow Dash (Mar 31, 2012)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> I can't accept that the great and mighty God is in capable of breaking strongholds off our lives, the word does not lie ...It is not his desire that we be held captive to any kind of addiction ...


 
Agree, Christ came to set the captives free. 

"THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD." Luke 4:18-19


----------



## Shimmie (Apr 2, 2012)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> I can't accept that the great and mighty God is in capable of breaking strongholds off our lives, the word does not lie ...It is not his desire that we be held captive to any kind of addiction ...



This is true.  I've witnessed those who were also 'unwilling', yet God DID override their foolish mindset, and they were delivered.  

Yet there are still some folks that have lost their way and never found their way back and it's not because God could not nor did not want to save them.   Whitney is one of those examples.   

I can only see God grieving over this and warning those who remain, to take heed and flee from such.  

So sad...


----------

