# Masturbation and the Word of God



## Thiends (May 14, 2010)

I know where the Catholics stand on this, but I have never been clear on Protestant doctrine on solo masturbation (as opposed to "mutual masturbation," i.e., partners masturbating each other, which the bible condemns outside of marriage).

Is solo masturbation wrong according to non-Catholic Christian views?

For both the Catholics and non-Catholics, if solo masturbation is wrong, then why?

I am asking seriously, as a fellow Christian very confused on this topic.


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## nathansgirl1908 (May 14, 2010)

WOW. I learn something new everyday.  Where in the Bible does it speak against masturbation?


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## Thiends (May 14, 2010)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> WOW. I learn something new everyday.  Where in the Bible does it speak against masturbation?


If you mean my reference to mutual masturbation, then the bible does not say anywhere "thou shalt not masturbate your partner and have him masturbate you." However, the bible bans fornication, admonishes us to refrain from sexual immorality and impurity, and commands us to_ flee_ temptation (rather than walking right up to the line and dancing on it). I believe that all of those things put together make mutual masturbation by unwed couples a highly unChristian activity.

If you are referring to solo masturbation, then, well, that is the whole point of this thread: I am _asking_ because I don't know.


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## CoilyFields (May 14, 2010)

That is an excellant question and one I have wondered about myself.  I can understand how solo masturbation would most definately be a sin if it is accompanied by porn or sexual fantasies or memories.  And I can also see one making the argument that God created sexual pleasure in ALL ITS FORMS for marriage and declared the marriage bed undefiled. Hence, anything outside of that, whether with a partner, alone, or with inanimate objects as wrong. 

Another question though, is whether it is a sin if you ARE married and still masterbate solo (and if it depends on the partners knowledge or consent)?


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## Thiends (May 14, 2010)

CoilyFields said:


> I can understand how solo masturbation would most definately be a sin if it is accompanied by porn or sexual fantasies or memories.


Wow, you might have answered the question for both of us.  Even with no porn, masturbation requires impure thoughts and therein lies the sin. 

Any thoughts on this, anyone?


> And I can also see one making the argument that God created sexual pleasure in ALL ITS FORMS for marriage and declared the marriage bed undefiled. Hence, anything outside of that, whether with a partner, alone, or with inanimate objects as wrong.


I can see this too. :yes: It makes life much harder, but I see it.



> Another question though, is whether it is a sin if you ARE married and still masterbate solo (and if it depends on the partners knowledge or consent)?


Gosh, this is another toughie. I could see it being wrong because God created intimacy to bring married couples closer, not to permit one to go off by himself or herself. I could see masturbation in marriage being seen as exploiting or making a goal in itself what God intended to be a means (to bring couples together). Goodness, this is tough.


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## Poohbear (May 14, 2010)

*Leviticus 15 (New International Version)

Leviticus 15

Discharges Causing Uncleanness *

 1 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, 2 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'When any man has a bodily discharge, the discharge is unclean. 3 Whether it continues flowing from his body or is blocked, it will make him unclean. This is how his discharge will bring about uncleanness: 
 4 " 'Any bed the man with a discharge lies on will be unclean, and anything he sits on will be unclean. 5 Anyone who touches his bed must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. 6 Whoever sits on anything that the man with a discharge sat on must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. 

 7 " 'Whoever touches the man who has a discharge must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. 

 8 " 'If the man with the discharge spits on someone who is clean, that person must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. 

 9 " 'Everything the man sits on when riding will be unclean, 10 and whoever touches any of the things that were under him will be unclean till evening; whoever picks up those things must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. 

 11 " 'Anyone the man with a discharge touches without rinsing his hands with water must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. 

 12 " 'A clay pot that the man touches must be broken, and any wooden article is to be rinsed with water. 

 13 " 'When a man is cleansed from his discharge, he is to count off seven days for his ceremonial cleansing; he must wash his clothes and bathe himself with fresh water, and he will be clean. 14 On the eighth day he must take two doves or two young pigeons and come before the LORD to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting and give them to the priest. 15 The priest is to sacrifice them, the one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. In this way he will make atonement before the LORD for the man because of his discharge. 

 16 " 'When a man has an emission of semen, he must bathe his whole body with water, and he will be unclean till evening. 17 Any clothing or leather that has semen on it must be washed with water, and it will be unclean till evening. 18 When a man lies with a woman and there is an emission of semen, both must bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening. 

 19 " 'When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening. 

 20 " 'Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. 21 Whoever touches her bed must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. 22 Whoever touches anything she sits on must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. 23 Whether it is the bed or anything she was sitting on, when anyone touches it, he will be unclean till evening. 

 24 " 'If a man lies with her and her monthly flow touches him, he will be unclean for seven days; any bed he lies on will be unclean. 

 25 " 'When a woman has a discharge of blood for many days at a time other than her monthly period or has a discharge that continues beyond her period, she will be unclean as long as she has the discharge, just as in the days of her period. 26 Any bed she lies on while her discharge continues will be unclean, as is her bed during her monthly period, and anything she sits on will be unclean, as during her period. 27 Whoever touches them will be unclean; he must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. 

 28 " 'When she is cleansed from her discharge, she must count off seven days, and after that she will be ceremonially clean. 29 On the eighth day she must take two doves or two young pigeons and bring them to the priest at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. 30 The priest is to sacrifice one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. In this way he will make atonement for her before the LORD for the uncleanness of her discharge. 

 31 " 'You must keep the Israelites separate from things that make them unclean, so they will not die in their uncleanness for defiling my dwelling place, which is among them.' " 

 32 These are the regulations for a man with a discharge, for anyone made unclean by an emission of semen, 33 for a woman in her monthly period, for a man or a woman with a discharge, and for a man who lies with a woman who is ceremonially unclean.


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## Guitarhero (May 14, 2010)

Tenins said:


> Is solo masturbation wrong according to non-Catholic Christian views?
> 
> For both the Catholics and non-Catholics, if solo masturbation is wrong, then why?
> 
> I am asking seriously, as a fellow Christian very confused on this topic.



It's impurity.  Sex with self.  It's the most selfish act a human can perform.  Wasting seed is strictly prohibited in the bible and it reversely applies to women (not talking about night emissions, that's natural but deliberate sexual stimulation).  Sexuality is reserved for marriage to welcome the natural result, new life.  We're also to perfect our minds and keep them clean.  Engaging in sexual fantasies is  impurity.  Do we all do it?  Hell yes.  Can we repent?  Absolutely.  Is it hard?  Very much so, depending upon the state a person is in and the development of the habit.  There's always forgiveness but the scriptures make it clear.  Tradition of the christian faith is that it is wrong.  
*
2Corinthian:12*
21 I fear that when I come again my God may humble me before you, and I  may have to mourn over many of those who sinned before and have not  repented of the impurity, immorality, and licentiousness which they have  practiced.


*Lev 15:16-18*
"And if a man has an emission of semen, he shall bath his whole body in  water and be unclean until the evening. And every garment and every skin  which the semen comes shall be washed with water, and be unclean until  the evening.  If a man lies with a woman and has an emission of semen,  both of them shall bath themselves in water and be unclean until the  evening." 		

*I Corinthians 6:9-11* 9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

*Matthew 5:27-30* 27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit  adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with  lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.  29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw  it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that  your whole body be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand  causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that  you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.




You asked the catholic stance.  This, from the catechism, which is the guide explaining the doctrines as well a why:




*2351:* "Lust is disordered desire for or  inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally  disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and  unitive  purposes."
*2352:* "By _masturbation_ is to be  understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to  derive sexual pleasure. 'Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the  course  of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been  in no  doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically  and  gravely disordered action.' 'The deliberate use of the sexual faculty,  for  whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its  purpose.' For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of 'the sexual  relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total   meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of  true  love is achieved'."

"To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility  and  to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective  immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other  psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a  minimum, moral culpability." *4*


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## Prudent1 (May 14, 2010)

*It's impurity. Sex with self. It's the most selfish act a human can perform. Wasting seed is strictly prohibited in the bible and it reversely applies to women (not talking about night emissions, that's natural but deliberate sexual stimulation). Sexuality is reserved for marriage to welcome the natural result, new life. We're also to perfect our minds and keep them clean. Engaging in sexual fantasies is impurity. Do we all do it? H*** yes. Can we repent? Absolutely. Is it hard? Very much so, depending upon the state a person is in and the development of the habit. There's always forgiveness but the scriptures make it clear. Tradition of the christian faith is that it is wrong. *

That is the way that it has been explained to me as well. Masturbation and fornication both as being selfish acts b/c they purely gratify no one but self. They also do not glorify God in any way. All I can say is thank God for repenence and forgiveness:blush3:. I was taught masturbation could help me keep myself before marriage and that during marriage it could help me stay faithful. I liked that justification and went at it whole-heartedly. Anyway, you live and you learn. Point being *any* form of selfish is very dangerous. While the bible does mention God's displeasure with spilling of seed, it does not say specifically don't masturbate but it says plenty about selfishness. Don't take my word for it, pray and ask God what he thinks about it-then listen. Those that have ears and want to hear will hear.


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## nathansgirl1908 (May 14, 2010)

Wow.  Outside of the belief that fornication is wrong, I never got that deeply into it concerning masturbation.  If a married woman masturbates while thinking about her husband, I don't really see how that is impure.  

Either way, I'm still not completely convinced that masturbation is a sin.  

And to be honest, very few people really think about glorifying God while having sex.


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## Sharpened (May 14, 2010)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> Wow.  Outside of the belief that fornication is wrong, I never got that deeply into it concerning masturbation.  If a married woman masturbates while thinking about her husband, I don't really see how that is impure.
> 
> Either way, I'm still not completely convinced that masturbation is a sin.


I tried that and got checked with the quickness, several times. We are trying to get away from focusing on self and self-satisfaction, remember? If you don't believe it is a sin, ask Him.



> And to be honest, very few people really think about glorifying God while having sex.


I have prayed for a certain outcome in the midst of and receive it...and thanked Him. Sleep is important at my age.


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## nathansgirl1908 (May 14, 2010)

Nymphe said:


> I tried that and got checked with the quickness, several times. We are trying to get away from focusing on self and self-satisfaction, remember? If you don't believe it is a sin, ask Him.



Why are we trying to get away from self-satisfaction?   And if she is thinking about her husband and not another man, where is the impurity?  I feel like this is yet another area where man has imposed more strict guidelines than God.  



> I have prayed for a certain outcome in the midst of and receive it...and thanked Him. Sleep is important at my age.



  Yeah, but that's not glorifying God.


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## Sharpened (May 14, 2010)

It is that whole "death to self" thing. If I don't get that outcome, DH won't leave me alone until I do.

Hey, what can we say? Ask Him.


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## nathansgirl1908 (May 15, 2010)

Nymphe said:


> It is that whole "death to self" thing. If I don't get that outcome, DH won't leave me alone until I do.





I guess.  I think that is taking it too far though.  That is more about your husband and his ego than about glorifying God IMO.  I think the God aspect comes from the intimacy and becoming one.  That outcome is just something society focuses on.  I don't think the two should be confused.  


And I don't get the interpretation that masturbation is a sin from the scriptures that were quoted.  I just find this stuff to be confusing.


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## Sharpened (May 15, 2010)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> I guess.  I think that is taking it too far though.  That is more about your husband and his ego than about glorifying God IMO.  I think the God aspect comes from the intimacy and becoming one.  That outcome is just something society focuses on.  I don't think the two should be confused.


Ego?  I was being factious. The "death to self" thing works both ways in a marriage, if you catch my drift. Considering that most women cannot get off, you best believe I am going to be thanking Him. Giving glory can be as simple as a heart-rendered thank you; the best form is obedience.



> And I don't get the interpretation that masturbation is a sin from the scriptures that were quoted.  I just find this stuff to be confusing.


Then don't depend on man's knowledge. Ask the Father! He will tell you.


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## Guitarhero (May 15, 2010)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> *Why are we trying to get away from self-satisfaction*?   And if she is thinking about her husband and not another man, where is the impurity?  I feel like this is yet another area where man has imposed more strict guidelines than God.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, but that's not glorifying God.


\
Because in the marriage, it's selfish.  That is a sin that produces a host of other sins and wrong attitudes.  Nothing wrong with pleasure but like anything, there is a formula for it.  Just like sex outside of marriage is wrong, self-satisfaction is wrong.  People can lust after their marital partner because they are not including them in the sharing of sex but are looking for only selfish release.

If thy eye offend thee, poke it out.  If thy right hand offend thee.....squeak, squeak, squeak    Cut it off/out!!!  About scriptures directly referring to wanking, well, not.  But it is biblical tradition that it is wrong in the three Abrahamic faiths.


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## nathansgirl1908 (May 15, 2010)

Natchitoches said:


> \
> Because in the marriage, it's selfish.  That is a sin that produces a host of other sins and wrong attitudes.  Nothing wrong with pleasure but like anything, there is a formula for it.  Just like sex outside of marriage is wrong, self-satisfaction is wrong.  People can lust after their marital partner because they are not including them in the sharing of sex but are looking for only selfish release.
> 
> If thy eye offend thee, poke it out.  If thy right hand offend thee.....squeak, squeak, squeak    Cut it off/out!!!  About scriptures directly referring to wanking, well, not.  But it is biblical tradition that it is wrong in the three Abrahamic faiths.



Perhaps.  But all of this just seems to be determined by man.  Not God.    I tend to err on the cautious side when it comes to things like this.


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## nathansgirl1908 (May 15, 2010)

Nymphe said:


> Ego?  I was being factious. The "death to self" thing works both ways in a marriage, if you catch my drift. Considering that most women cannot get off, you best believe I am going to be thanking Him. Giving glory can be as simple as a heart-rendered thank you; the best form is obedience.
> 
> Then don't depend on man's knowledge. Ask the Father! He will tell you.



I am still awaiting God's response on this matter.


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## Crown (May 15, 2010)

A balanced view :

http://www.acts17-11.com/dialogs_masturbation.html


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## Guitarhero (May 15, 2010)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> Perhaps.  But all of this just seems to be determined by man.  Not God.    I tend to err on the cautious side when it comes to things like this.




Hey, that's quite alright.  You have to be accountable for you and it's all a journey.  You will know what it is you need to do because this walk is customized.


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## Angelicus (May 15, 2010)

This is just me: I quit because I trust that God will provide a mate for me so that I won't have to play pretend.


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## Guitarhero (May 15, 2010)

Crown said:


> A balanced view :
> 
> http://www.acts17-11.com/dialogs_masturbation.html
> 
> ...



I looked at the article and am confused by what he is saying.  How can somebody masturbate to bring the body into submission but not attach a fantasy to it?  Is that possible???  The scenario I can think of is trying to keep from having sex with somebody.  Now, what if you went home already and he's not there.  You wank off but you don't think of him?  I'm truly scratching my head on this one because I can't fathom it.  

So, he's basically saying that if the body has need to release itself and you're trying to keep from committing a sexual act with another person, this is ok and less wrong than  the mental, lustful emotional side of masturbating?  See, I thought lust combined mind plus flesh.  His perspective is a new one for me and I've not heard it that way before.


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## Prudent1 (May 15, 2010)

Good discussion y'all. I like that we can discuss the unknown gray areas in our lives. Now to the matter at hand...


nathansgirl1908 said:


> I am still awaiting God's response on  this matter.


And that is precisely what you need to continue to do. Just like with anything else God will not impose his view on you. He will answer you when you are ready to hear from him. It can be hard for some to give this up. No different than anything else (alcohol, drugs etc.). All areas of our lives need to be shared with God. There is no area too small. We as believers must also remember that while it is fine and highly desired to consider all things in the end, the bible must be the period at the end of every sentence. IOW, it doesn't matter what we think. I tried to find loopholes here too. Most ppl masturbating are not thinking of their spouse no more than most women choosing abortion as a means to an end are not under-aged, rape victims, or in danger of dying. For the few who are, if we don't understand every small detail, it still doesn't matter. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Never has been, never will be. All who want to hear will hear. 
*James 1:5
*

   5If any of you lacks  wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding  fault, and it will be given to him.


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## Thiends (May 15, 2010)

I love the lively discussion. Like Nathansgirl, I actually do not find the bible verses clear, especially with the link that Crown posted. I do feel, however, that God is leading me to be against masturbation...which, added to abstinence, makes life that much harder. 

How has not masturbating worked out for those of you who do not masturbate? Do you feel loser to God? Less tempted to sexual sin?

Does anyone know why Catholics came to be so strongly against masturbation while most Protestant churches are pretty much silent on it?


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## Thiends (May 15, 2010)

Natchitoches said:


> I looked at the article and am confused by what he is saying.  *How can somebody masturbate to bring the body into submission but not attach a fantasy to it?*  Is that possible???  The scenario I can think of is trying to keep from having sex with somebody.  Now, what if you went home already and he's not there.  You wank off but you don't think of him?  I'm truly scratching my head on this one because I can't fathom it.


Yea, I am really confused on that too.


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## Thiends (May 15, 2010)

Prudent1 said:


> Good discussion y'all. I like that we can discuss the unknown gray areas in our lives. Now to the matter at hand...


I agree.  


> And that is precisely what you need to continue to do. Just like with anything else God will not impose his view on you. *He will answer you when you are ready to hear from him. It can be hard for some to give this up. No different than anything else (alcohol, drugs etc.). All areas of our lives need to be shared with God.* There is no area too small. We as believers must also remember that while it is fine and highly desired to consider all things in the end, *the bible must be the period at the end of every sentence.* IOW, it doesn't matter what we think. I tried to find loopholes here too. *Most ppl masturbating are not thinking of their spouse no more than most women choosing abortion as a means to an end are not under-aged, rape victims, or in danger of dying.* For the few who are, if we don't understand every small detail, it still doesn't matter. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Never has been, never will be. All who want to hear will hear.
> James 1:5 If any of you lacks  wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding  fault, and it will be given to him.


Very well explained. I hear ya.


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## Guitarhero (May 15, 2010)

Tenins said:


> I love the lively discussion. Like Nathansgirl, I actually do not find the bible verses clear, especially with the link that Crown posted. I do feel, however, that God is leading me to be against masturbation...which, added to abstinence, makes life that much harder.
> 
> How has not masturbating worked out for those of you who do not masturbate? Do you feel loser to God? Less tempted to sexual sin?
> 
> Does anyone know why Catholics came to be so strongly against masturbation while most Protestant churches are pretty much silent on it?



Refer to my earlier post on the catechism.  I don't want to go find it again lol.  But since it's such a disordered act, it constitutes mortal sin and in such a state, you cannot receive the communion because we believe it to be the real live body and blood of Jesus through transformation when consumed.  Mortal sin (full knowledge and willfully doing a grave sin) removes the grace of salvation from a person, ending their relationship with God and you have to repent and confess (celebration of returning from sin through absolution which Christ gave the church in authority) before returning to communion.  You break your communing with Him and have to be restored.  It's kinda complicated sounding, I know.  But that's why.  So if you wank, you have to confess.  Yeah, it's complicated  

This is one reason you will see people not receiving the eucharist...but it's not the only reason and you cannot judge or try and imagine.  There are a variety of reasons.  But for those with a spiritually minded heart, they won't dare take eucharist to insult Him.  It's tough but there for our benefit.   Protestants don't have confession (some do, though, like Lutherans and Presbyterians, maybe Anglicans, I think???) and they are not bound in their doctrine to going through a priest like in the "Old" Testament for absolution or sin offerings.  They confess straight to God.  Catholics do too, but they have the added law to confess to a priest.  Repentance begins and ends in the contrite heart for Prostestants.  For catholics and orthodox, it begins with a contrite heart and ends in the confessional.    I hope I explained the why's well.


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## Thiends (May 15, 2010)

Natchitoches said:


> Refer to my earlier post on the catechism.


Your explanation is great, but it does not quite answer my question. I know the Catholic church's stance and how things work with that church. What I am wondering about is the why of the difference between the attention that Catholics and Protestants pay to masturbation. I am not even sure there is any clear Protestant doctrine on masturbation, and I have never heard it preached on. Maybe the reasons behind the difference can't  be figured out w/out years of research.

A related pt is that maybe the fact that the Catholic stance is in the catechism, not the bible, implies that being anti-masturb is a matter of tradition, not biblical mandate.


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## Guitarhero (May 15, 2010)

Tenins said:


> Your explanation is great, but it does not quite answer my question. I know the Catholic church's stance and how things work with that church. What I am wondering about is the why of the difference between the attention that Catholics and Protestants pay to masturbation. I am not even sure there is any clear Protestant doctrine on masturbation, and I have never heard it preached on. Maybe the reasons behind the difference can't  be figured out w/out years of research.
> 
> A related pt is that maybe the fact that the Catholic stance is in the catechism, not the bible, implies that being anti-masturb is a matter of *tradition,* not biblical mandate.




Earlier I explained that it's tradition in the 3 Abrahamic faiths.  For Jews and chrisians, scriptural and oral.  In the RCC,whatever is bound on earth is also bound on heaven and you know - authority was given.  But the attention paid to it has got to be linked to the mortal sin issue imho.  Protestant tradition fell away from that over the centuries.  Actually, I think it's only recently since the last century that masturbation (Freud, Jung etc.) is even seen as a "healthy" human function.  I know one thing, it's a b!tch to confess especially if you forget which confessional and go face-to-face


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## Uber (May 16, 2010)

A lot of the reasoning given above to not masturbating is quite true.

 I've read that masturbation is mainly wrong because of the impure thoughts it requires. I have also read that masturbation between married couples or even  caressing of the genitals parts against themselves should not be encouraged. It may be necessary  to do the aforementioned when first learning about lovemaking between one another and for the man to learn how to make his wife climax. However as the couples mature they should leave it alone because (and i am just writing this from memory) it can invoke  similar pleasures as when sole masturbation was performed therefore allowing entry of the enemy. I personally believe this. God has a reason from telling us NOT to do things usually because it has a negative repercussion.


Without going into details, from personal experience I feel masturbation and  sex which does not involve full penetration can allow attack from Satan.


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## Thiends (May 16, 2010)

Bess said:


> A lot of the reasoning given above to not masturbating is quite true.
> 
> I've read that masturbation is mainly wrong because of the impure thoughts it requires. I have also read that masturbation between married couples or even  caressing of the genitals parts against themselves should not be encouraged. It may be necessary  to do the aforementioned when first learning about lovemaking between one another and for the man to learn how to make his wife climax. However as the couples mature they should leave it alone because (and i am just writing this from memory) it can invoke  similar pleasures as when sole masturbation was performed therefore allowing entry of the enemy. I personally believe this. God has a reason from telling us NOT to do things usually because it has a negative repercussion.
> 
> ...


Now, this is a bit odd to me. Married couples should not touch each other's genitals beyond what is needed to 'permit entry,' so to speak? This would even mean no oral sex even in marriage. In what way will this permit Satan's entry any more than having sex will? Thank you for sharing this. Could you (or anyone who has heard of this) elaborate?


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## Uber (May 16, 2010)

^^ urm basically to maybe explain what i mean is that the author suggested that caressing one genital part against the other is a good way for men to understand how to bring a woman to climax as well as masturbation. However, once the couples were able to reach climax through penetration it is wise not to do it.  Oral sex, from what i can remember was not mentioned in terms of refraining from it. It was more to do with masturbation and the rubbing of genitals against each other to get to climax.........Sorry hoping this is not against forum rules!! Unforunately, someone bought me this book before I got married and I mislaid it. I havent got a clue what the title of the book is. I always wanted to go back and check if I had got it correct but I couldn't find the book.


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## Uber (May 16, 2010)

Tenins said:


> Now, this is a bit odd to me. Married couples should not touch each other's genitals beyond what is needed to 'permit entry,' so to speak? This would even mean no oral sex even in marriage. In what way will this *permit Satan's entry any more than having sex will?* Thank you for sharing this. Could you (or anyone who has heard of this) elaborate?


 

oh and apart from the oral sex, as mentioned, i don't think this was adviced as refraining from if both parties were willing, as i say its from memory only  but for the masturbation etc  between couples this would invoke similar pleasures as arisen from partaking in solo masturbation which requires impure thoughts. I suppose when you entertain impure thoughts or actions etc you allow (maybe even give permission for)  satan's entry into our lives.


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## Mis007 (May 16, 2010)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> Wow. Outside of the belief that fornication is wrong, I never got that deeply into it concerning masturbation. If a married woman masturbates while thinking about her husband, I don't really see how that is impure.
> 
> Either way, *I'm still not completely convinced that masturbation is a sin. *
> 
> And to be honest, very few people really think about glorifying God while having sex.


 
Surely it is better to masturbate then to seek sexual gratification from someone else who is not your husband, one would of thought.


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## nathansgirl1908 (May 16, 2010)

Prudent1 said:


> Good discussion y'all. I like that we can discuss the unknown gray areas in our lives. Now to the matter at hand...
> 
> And that is precisely what you need to continue to do. Just like with anything else God will not impose his view on you. He will answer you when you are ready to hear from him. It can be hard for some to give this up. No different than anything else (alcohol, drugs etc.). All areas of our lives need to be shared with God. There is no area too small. We as believers must also remember that while it is fine and highly desired to consider all things in the end, the bible must be the period at the end of every sentence. IOW, it doesn't matter what we think. I tried to find loopholes here too. Most ppl masturbating are not thinking of their spouse no more than most women choosing abortion as a means to an end are not under-aged, rape victims, or in danger of dying. For the few who are, if we don't understand every small detail, it still doesn't matter. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Never has been, never will be. All who want to hear will hear.
> *James 1:5*
> ...


 I'm not sure if you intended to come off this way, but your post came off as though the assumption is that I'm unwilling to hear what God has to say.  I'm not unwilling.  I think there is genuine question as to whether this is the case.  The Bible is pretty straightforward when it comes to listing things that constitute sin.  I can literally point to a scripture that states that fornication is a sin or that homosexuality is a sin, etc.   We are unable to do the same with masturbation.  Which means that man is imposing his/her own heavy interpretations on this.


And for the record, please don't assume that someone making these arguments is  having a hard time giving  it up.  Not everyone who feels this way actually masturbates. There are just some of us who get a little weary of people making everything hyperspiritual and being more convicting than God and the Word.


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## Butterfly08 (May 16, 2010)

Angelicus said:


> This is just me: I quit because I trust that God will provide a mate for me so that I won't have to play pretend.


 


Tenins said:


> I love the lively discussion. Like Nathansgirl, I actually do not find the bible verses clear, especially with the link that Crown posted. I do feel, however, that God is leading me to be against masturbation...which, added to abstinence, makes life that much harder.


 
ITA with both of your perspectives. I am recently divorced and I have NO QUALMS that God is leading me not only to abstinence but no masturbation until I re-marry. I am 100% waiting on the godly husband that I believe He is preparing for me right now.  Is it tough? Yes - VERY.  There's definitely a withdrawal period, especially when you've been married for years like I was.  But I am demonstrating my faith in Him that He *will *answer my prayer. And my husband will be receiving a gift, lemme tell you. 

I do believe that it would be very difficult to masturbate without some type of lust attached to it, and there are definitely scriptures which expressly forbid lust. I am not aware of any scriptures that expressly forbid masturbation, however again I have *no doubt* that the Lord is leading me not to do it.  I am determined to be obedient and delight myself in Him in the meantime, because His word says that if I delight myself in Him, He will give me the desires of my heart.  

During this time my relationship with the Lord has grown like never before. It's almost like a fast. When you forsake what the body craves, there's a struggle between spirit and flesh, but if you hang in there, ultimately your spiritual senses gain strength and clarity. There is something really beautiful and indescribable about knowing that God is speaking to you about your future and all the wonderful things that He has prepared for you - and some of the visions he has shown me and the things He has told me have* already* started to come to pass. I don't believe my senses would be as sharp if I was indulging my flesh.

So in some of these gray areas in the Word you really do have to ask God for clarity. I am certain of what He has told me about this matter.


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## nathansgirl1908 (May 17, 2010)

Butterfly08 said:


> There is something really beautiful and indescribable about *knowing that God is speaking to you about your future and all the wonderful things that He has prepared for you* - and some of the visions he has shown me and the things He has told me have* already* started to come to pass. I don't believe my senses would be as sharp if I was indulging my flesh.


 Thanks was not enough on this one.  This is soooo true.  It is SUCH  beautiful thing.


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## Crown (May 17, 2010)

I wonder how the many many wives of Solomon, for example, survive in their situation (it’s just a thought!).

  If you’ve been taught that scratching your scalp is a sin, you (general) will believe that you sin if you scratch your scalp.  
  It is clear that hurting your scalp is wrong. So, you would prefer to scratch your scalp but not hurting it.

  Is it necessary to have impure thoughts to scratch your scalp to be satisfied? No. 
  Is it necessary to go get a complicated machine to scratch your scalp? Nope. You scratch it with your fingers as you do for your itchy skin.
  Is it necessary to scratch your scalp if it is not itching? Watch out maybe you are sick and you don’t even know this.

  Knowing that scratching your scalp is not clearly stated as a sin, you do know if you scratch your scalp : there is  _something_.
  Then you know you have to find a way to fight or cure your itchy scalp so you wont have to scratch.

  It is a matter of strength and prayer.


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## Prudent1 (May 17, 2010)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> *I'm not sure if you intended to come* *off this way, but your post came off as though the assumption is* *that I'm unwilling to hear what God has to say*. I'm not unwilling. I think there is genuine question as to whether this is the case. The Bible is pretty straightforward when it comes to listing things that constitute sin. I can literally point to a scripture that states that fornication is a sin or that homosexuality is a sin, etc. We are unable to do the same with masturbation. Which means that man is imposing his/her own heavy interpretations on this.
> 
> 
> *And for the record, please don't assume that someone making these arguments is having a hard time giving it up.* Not everyone who feels this way actually masturbates. There are just some of us who get a little weary of people making everything hyperspiritual and being more convicting than God and the Word.


No, allow me to clarify. I did not mean to imply that you were unwilling to hear God. Thank you for not jumping to conclusions too. I was a lurker before joining the forum and I am aware that a lot of ppl look at things we discuss here w/o actually commenting. Sometimes, parts of my comments are written the way that they are to address silent observers too. So basically, I meant no offense to you or anyone else. Christianity, as you know is a journey. We all are constantly learning in different ways and from different life experiences to arrive later at the same _end_. 

To the second part that was my 'shoe' (as in if the shoe fits...). I personally received wrong teaching concerning this topic and b/c of it I had a hard time. I know others have too. I enjoy reading the viewpoints here even if I do not agree 100%. Even if I know others do not agree with me 100%. As to the exact reference in scripture, there are some things I think we have to exercise our faith 'muscle' on b/c we are looking through that "darkly lit mirror seeing only in part." When I said to keep (point blank) asking God what he had to say about the topic, you are exactly on point. He helps us fill in any gray areas (ie missing literal references) since he has all answers and promises to enlighten us since he does not want us ignorant on various topics. I have to do this too. I'm not trying to overspritualize on that. You are 1000% right. Some ppl will not even _ask_ God his opinion for various reasons but you have. He will answer you. Thanks for giving me a chance to clarify

*1 Corinthians 13:12 *

*12*Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.


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## Guitarhero (May 17, 2010)

This is just me and I hope that it doesn't offend anybody in any way but in my life and where God was leading me before I converted, my wake up call that something was definitely wrong with it was a vision in my mind's eye, that there were ugly, disgusting evil demons participating in this act.  It was for a split second.  I've never looked at it the same way again, although I do not discredit any of the opinions on here.  I think it's very important to see many sides of everything.

Of course, if God would go ahead and provide me my husband, it would be no issue and both sides would be jumping backflips daily over joy.


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## Prudent1 (May 17, 2010)

*Of course, if God would go ahead and provide me my husband, it would be no issue and both sides would be jumping backflips daily over joy. *
Ok?!


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## CoilyFields (May 17, 2010)

There are many issues that have not been expressly mentioned in scripture that we seek answers to.  I have mentioned before in other topics that there is a helpful way to categorize certain things as right or wrong. The first being, if its not directly in scripture...is it there indirectly? Using another word/phrase. If not, is there a similar or umbrella issue mentioned in the Bible under which this may likely fall? What is the principle that is taught in scripture and can it apply to this?

Masturbation is for sexual satisfaction. What we DO know from scripture:

1. God created sex for the marriage bed
2. Our bodies belong to our mates
3. The bible says its better to marry than to burn with passion
4. The Bible has strong rules against fornicaiton and sexual immorality
5. There are TONS of scripture on this sin-it really stands out-because our bodies are the temple of the Holy Ghost and this is the only sin that we do inside of our bodies.
6. The bible has warned us against lust

So personally, I conclude from the above that masturbation is a sin for a single person-especially #3 seems to indicate that if you are not married then you may at times burn with passion-unsatisfied passion with no way to quench it. I also think there is such a slippery slope with masturbation-fantasizing/lust more often than not accompany it-that it may be safer to stay away from it even if you dont think its wrong.

Like I said earlier I wasnt sure about masturbation for married people...but it seems that maybe since our bodies belong to our spouses, if that is something that they desire for us to do-agree that it is ok...then its not wrong... I'm Leaning toward that viewpoint based on the above. And then its ok for masturbation to include fantasizing/lusting after your spouse.

But I too enjoy these discussions ladies. Iron sharpens Iron and its always good for us to discuss and learn from each other.


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## PrissyMiss (May 18, 2010)

Well... I will post an unpopular but true opinion ( at least) for me.  I do not believe that maturbation is a sin depending on how the act is used. For instance, for me masturbation has been the best thing that has ever happened. As a matter of fact, I often think if I had masturbated earlier, besides following this law that I personally feel is brought on by misuse of  biblical scriptures, I would have never lost my virginity. Period. I don't do it often, as a matter of fact I don't do it every month. 

When I do do it, there is not a lustful thought nor the use of any porn.  However, it has stopped me from having pre-marital sex. I just don't feel the need. I can be around a man and not feel that need to have sex. I'm not trying to be funny, but I don't believe that you can stop anything cold turkey.

Based on my situation, there is not one person on here, not one, who can convince me that God would rather someone to fall and commit the sin of pre-marital sex, than to masturbate every now and then and remain pure. I think as christians we have to remember that God knows our heart. I do not believe that he would fault me for masturbating knowing that the reason that I do it is to prevent myself from having sex with a man.


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## PrissyMiss (May 18, 2010)

Butterfly08 said:


> I do believe that it would be very difficult to masturbate without some type of lust attached to it, and there are definitely scriptures which expressly forbid lust. I am not aware of any scriptures that expressly forbid masturbation, however again I have *no doubt* that the Lord is leading me not to do it.  I am determined to be obedient and delight myself in Him in the meantime, because His word says that if I delight myself in Him, He will give me the desires of my heart.
> 
> During this time my relationship with the Lord has grown like never before. It's almost like a fast. When you forsake what the body craves, there's a struggle between spirit and flesh, but if you hang in there, ultimately your spiritual senses gain strength and clarity. There is something really beautiful and indescribable about knowing that God is speaking to you about your future and all the wonderful things that He has prepared for you - and some of the visions he has shown me and the things He has told me have* already* started to come to pass. I don't believe my senses would be as sharp if I was indulging my flesh.



This is where I disagree. If you go back to 1 and 2 Kings you will come across the story of two very similar men. Let's just be honest, David was not that different from Saul. 

David and Saul committed acts that most would feel would hinder them from being close to God. Now, while it certainly did hinder Saul, it did not hinder David. I believe it was because David's heart was pure. The bible says that David was a man after God's own heart. While Saul was a man after his own heart. 

While I do not believe that masturbation is a sin, even if it was, it certainly would not stop anyone from being close to God. As long as their heart is pure, God will always keep their eyes and ears open.


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## Vonnieluvs08 (May 19, 2010)

I don't have anything to add.  I just want to say that I've appreciated all of the POV.  I know I have been struggling with this area and you have all given me a lot to pray about.

Thank you Ladies.


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## nathansgirl1908 (May 19, 2010)

PrissyMiss said:


> Well... I will post an unpopular but true opinion ( at least) for me.  I do not believe that maturbation is a sin depending on how the act is used. For instance, for me masturbation has been the best thing that has ever happened. As a matter of fact, I often think if I had masturbated earlier, besides following this law that I personally feel is brought on by misuse of  biblical scriptures, I would have never lost my virginity. Period. I don't do it often, as a matter of fact I don't do it every month.
> 
> When I do do it, there is not a lustful thought nor the use of any porn.  However, it has stopped me from having pre-marital sex. I just don't feel the need. I can be around a man and not feel that need to have sex. I'm not trying to be funny, but I don't believe that you can stop anything cold turkey.
> 
> Based on my situation, there is not one person on here, not one, who can convince me that God would rather someone to fall and commit the sin of pre-marital sex, than to masturbate every now and then and remain pure. I think as christians we have to remember that God knows our heart. I do not believe that he would fault me for masturbating knowing that the reason that I do it is to prevent myself from having sex with a man.


You better speak on that.  

I so totally agree and had to respond because hitting the thanks button was just not enough.


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## Guitarhero (May 19, 2010)

Question:  What is sex?


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## PrissyMiss (May 19, 2010)

According to Webster Dictionary: Sex- is heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis or intercourse ( as anal or oral) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis. 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sexual intercourse


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## Guitarhero (May 19, 2010)

PrissyMiss said:


> According to Webster Dictionary: Sex- is heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis or intercourse ( as anal or oral) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis.
> 
> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sexual intercourse



By a christian and more encompassing definition.  I say auto-sex is still sex. (note:  IMHO.  This is just for discussion.  You'll do what you want and that's not my personal business).


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## PrissyMiss (May 19, 2010)

So are we defining sex by opinions or by facts. I can't argue opinions because it is all subjective. 

Is making out, minus oral sex, sex? No. It might be a sexual act but it is definitely not sex. A female can makeout with a male and never have sex with him. Not to mention, that masturbation does not have to include penetration of any sort. Therefore, according to definition, although masturbation would be considered a sexual act, it is not sex.


ETA: There is a difference between sex and sexual acts.


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## Guitarhero (May 19, 2010)

PrissyMiss said:


> So are we defining sex by opinions or by facts. I can't argue opinions because it is all subjective.
> 
> Is making out, minus oral sex, sex? No. It might be a sexual act but it is definitely not sex. A female can makeout with a male and never have sex with him. Not to mention, that masturbation does not have to include penetration of any sort. Therefore, according to definition, although masturbation would be considered a sexual act, it is not sex.
> 
> ...



SEXual act.  It falls under the category of sex.  Intercourse is all the way.  Manipulation of the body and mind to produce arousal = sex IMHO.  In some cultures, kissing, tongue kissing, holding hands with the opposite sex, petting, etc.  all constitute sexual behavior.  This is just my opinion (no less worthy than so-call "fact" because another's "fact" might be opinion as well), but I think that we as a modern society have pushed the line so far ahead, we can't recognize what is and what is not.  Incidentally, the scriptures warn about lust in the heart being adulterous already. So, it could very well be that any type of intentional sexual arousal  is actually sex, just not intercourse.  How to find out?  Discuss, just like the apostles and the early church fathers as they came to accepted interpretations.  Nothing wrong in that.


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## PrissyMiss (May 19, 2010)

Natchitoches said:


> SEXual act.  It falls under the category of sex.  Intercourse is all the way.  Manipulation of the body and mind to produce arousal = sex IMHO.  In some cultures, kissing, tongue kissing, holding hands with the opposite sex, petting, etc.  all constitute sexual behavior.  This is just my opinion (no less worthy than so-call "fact" because another's "fact" might be opinion as well), but I think that we as a modern society have pushed the line so far ahead, we can't recognize what is and what is not.  Incidentally, the scriptures warn about lust in the heart being adulterous already. So, it could very well be that any type of intentional sexual arousal  is actually sex, just not intercourse.  How to find out?  Discuss, just like the apostles and the early church fathers as they came to accepted interpretations.  Nothing wrong in that.



Well... we are going to have to agree to disagree. Like I stated in my previous post, I can't argue opinions and I definitely can't argue culture, especially not in spirtual context.
 Discussions are good sometimes, but when it comes to spiritual things I stick to the truth. John 16:13 says "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth." That's why I can't argue culture or opinions. All I can say is that I know what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me and I have faith that he will do the same for you.


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## Poohbear (May 20, 2010)

Natchitoches said:


> *SEXual act. It falls under the category of sex.* Intercourse is all the way. Manipulation of the body and mind to produce arousal = sex IMHO. In some cultures, kissing, tongue kissing, holding hands with the opposite sex, petting, etc. all constitute sexual behavior. This is just my opinion (no less worthy than so-call "fact" because another's "fact" might be opinion as well), but I think that we as a modern society have pushed the line so far ahead, we can't recognize what is and what is not. Incidentally, the scriptures warn about lust in the heart being adulterous already. So, it could very well be that any type of intentional sexual arousal is actually sex, just not intercourse. How to find out? Discuss, just like the apostles and the early church fathers as they came to accepted interpretations. Nothing wrong in that.


I think it's the other way around... Sex (sexual intercourse or oral sex) falls under the category of Sexual Acts.

Kissing, holding hands, hugging, etc. could be considered "pre-sexual" activities, but not necessarily. Not all of these lead to sex nor constitute sexual behavior. I'm sure if you give someone a hug or a friend a kiss, that doesn't mean you are participating in a sexual act nor are you thinking of having sex with them.

And you know what I realized... the Bible really never speaks against sex literally and may not even use the word sex... the Bible always speaks against things such as fornication, adultery, lust, sexual immorality, promiscuity, harlotry, homosexuality, and a few other words I believe that all allude to sexual acts.

And you know what else? The Bible also doesn't clearly speak against premarital sex or sex outside of marriage either. Words and phrases such as "fornication" and "sexual immorality" have just been commonly interpreted to mean "pre-marital sex" or "sex outside of marriage". 1 Corinthians 7:2 is a common verse use to support the notion of sex only being for marriage.


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## Poohbear (May 20, 2010)

Here's an article from gotquestions.org about whether or not masturbation is a sin:

*Question: "Masturbation - is it a sin according to the Bible?"*

*Answer:* The Bible never explicitly mentions masturbation or states whether or not masturbation is a sin. The Scripture most frequently pointed to in regards to masturbation is the story of Onan in *Genesis 38:9-10*. Some interpret this passage as saying that “spilling your seed” on the ground is a sin. However, that is not precisely what the passage is saying. God condemned Onan not for “spilling his seed” but because Onan refused to fulfill his duty to provide an heir for his brother. The passage is not about masturbation, but rather about fulfilling a family duty. A second passage sometimes used as evidence for masturbation’s being a sin is *Matthew 5:27-30*. Jesus speaks against having lustful thoughts and then says, “If your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away.” While there are parallels between this passage and masturbation, it is unlikely that masturbation was what Jesus was alluding to.

While the Bible nowhere explicitly states that masturbation is a sin, there is no question as to whether the actions that lead to masturbation are sinful. Masturbation is nearly always the result of lustful thoughts, sexual stimulation, and/or pornographic images. It is these problems that need to be dealt with. If the sins of lust, immoral thoughts, and pornography are forsaken and overcome, masturbation will become a non-issue. Many people struggle with guilty feelings concerning masturbation, when in reality, the things that led to the act are far more worthy of repentance.

There are some biblical principles that can be applied to the issue of masturbation. *Ephesians 5:3* declares, “Among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity.” It is hard to see how masturbating can pass that particular test. The Bible teaches us, “So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God” (*1 Corinthians 10:31*). If you cannot give God glory for something, you should not do it. If a person is not fully convinced that an activity is pleasing to God, then it is a sin: “Everything that does not come from faith is sin” (*Romans 14:23*). Further, we need to remember that our bodies have been redeemed and belong to God. “Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body” (*1 Corinthians 6:19-20*). This great truth should have a real bearing on what we do with our bodies. In light of these principles, the conclusion that masturbation is a sin is biblical. Clearly, masturbation is not glorifying to God; it does not avoid the appearance of immorality, nor does it pass the test of God’s having ownership over our bodies.

*Source:* http://www.gotquestions.org/masturbation-sin.html


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## CoilyFields (May 20, 2010)

PrissyMiss said:


> According to Webster Dictionary: Sex- is heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis or intercourse ( as anal or oral) that does not involve penetration of the vagina by the penis.
> 
> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sexual intercourse


 

The Bible speaks against sexual immorality, generally using the term fornication for those who are unmarried, and adultery for those who are married.

No matter how much we want to include or not include certain sexual acts under the umbrella of fornication/adultery/sexual immorality...the bible only condones sexual activity for the marriage bed.  At no other time does it speak in a way that would allow us to believe that its ok outside of marriage. And it talks so much against it...in thought and in deed...that it lends itself to the strictest standards. 

Also I think that the idea of masturbation as a preventative measure for pre-marital sex is a good one...as long as masturbation is not a sin. Which is the question at hand! lol.  Because if God considers it a sin then you're just as guilty of fornication if you masturbate as you would be if you had sexual intercourse.

My youth pastors have shared with us that anything that gives you that "tingle" outside of marriage is sexual immorality. So yes a hug or a kiss, and even holding hands can be sexually immoral if they produce and entertain those feelings. And yes those feelings are natural for us to feel in our bodies...but thats because we were born in sin and shaped in iniquity so there are TONS of feelings/instincts that are natural but still wrong (or wrong when taken out of biblical context). Thats why the Bible says we have to constantly put our bodies under subjection to our spirits.

I guess my honest question to others is this: I see fornication as on a spectrum

Lustful thoughts-----------------------------------------Sexual Acts

And it seems really strict so even though it doesnt specifically _Mention_ mastrbation (as it also doesnt mention petting nor oral sex), why wouldnt you include it within that spectrum (even though it is clearly a sexual act)?


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## PrissyMiss (May 20, 2010)

CoilyFields said:


> My youth pastors have shared with us that anything that gives you that "tingle" outside of marriage is sexual immorality. So yes a hug or a kiss, and even holding hands can be sexually immoral if they produce and entertain those feelings. And yes those feelings are natural for us to feel in our bodies...but thats because we were born in sin and shaped in iniquity so there are TONS of feelings/instincts that are natural but still wrong (or wrong when taken out of biblical context). Thats why the Bible says we have to constantly put our bodies under subjection to our spirits.
> 
> I guess my honest question to others is this: I see fornication as on a spectrum
> 
> ...



 So, basically, you guys believe that you shouldn't do any physical thing before marriage.  Like Poohbear said, kissing, touching, and other things of that nature does not have to be sexual. In fact, they are great ways of showing emotions. 

To address the second hand of your post, masturbation does not have to be that thing that sets people up for sex. The reason why I say this is because I know people who can't masturbate, and don't masturbate because it opens the door for sex and lust. However, I know those who do do it becuase it closes the door to sex and lust. 

However, let's just define fornication. Here is an interesting christian article about fornication:

http://www.christianlibrary.org/authors/Douglas_R_Young/misc/fornication.htm
"The majority of our Greek authorities are generally in line with one another as to the meaning of the word fornication.  Fornication is derived from the Greek word, (pornea) and refers to some form of illicit sexual intercourse in general.  Fornication can be committed between a man and woman, a man and man, a woman and a woman, or a man/woman and an animal.  Our English term “pornography” is also derived from this Greek word.  Webster’s Comprehensive Dictionary (Encyclopedia Edition) defines fornication as “Illicit sexual intercourse of unmarried persons.”  Though this term is most commonly used to describe sexual relations outside of marriage, it is not limited to unmarried people because Jesus allows “fornication” as an exception to scripturally divorce a spouse (Matt. 5:32, 19:9).  *Therefore, a married person can commit fornication just as an unmarried person can.*"

So how would masturbation fall into the category of fornication?


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## nathansgirl1908 (May 20, 2010)

This is the kind of stuff that either pushes people away from the church or turns them off from ever allowing God into their lives.  

I'm not saying we shouldn't have discussions, but I think there is a certain danger in potentially overanalyzing everything.   I don't think it is necessary to hint at or advocate for people not to hug or kiss outside of marriage.  I understand the thought process related to that idea, but I don't think it is necessary to take it to that extreme.


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## PrissyMiss (May 20, 2010)

See this is where my question comes right back into play. If someone maturbates so that they don't give into sexual temptation, which is the presumption that they are trying not to sin, and trying not to sin is equal to trying to please God, how is it not pleasing God? 

It is impossible to not have lustful thoughts period. You are immortal if you say that you don't struggle, at any point and time of your life, with lustful thoughts. From what I conclude from the bible, we all have to do something to overcome that, and because it is so natural, to simply stop thinking about it doesn't work for most. There has to be an action to replace that action, and the action that will work depends on the individual.


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## PrissyMiss (May 20, 2010)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> This is the kind of stuff that either pushes people away from the church or turns them off from ever allowing God into their lives.
> 
> I'm not saying we shouldn't have discussions, but I think there is a certain danger in potentially overanalyzing everything.   I don't think it is necessary to hint at or advocate for people not to hug or kiss outside of marriage.  I understand the thought process related to that idea, but I don't think it is necessary to take it to that extreme.



Man, nathansgirl, we are really eye to eye! I went to church last night  and our pastor briefly talked about aguing about elementary spirtual things. Hebrews 5:12 says that "In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!" 

Then Hebrews 6:1 goes on to say "Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[a] and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so. "


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## trenise (May 20, 2010)

Okay, here is something else to ponder then. Suppose you are in a marriage and it is not possible for the couple to have sex due to medical reasons? Or perhaps even the husband has no desire for his wife. Should the wife then remain celebate, even though she is married, and also never have any sexual gratification for the rest of her life?


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## Guitarhero (May 20, 2010)

On second thought....

  We are imbued with intellect and the forum is for open discussion. Brains were not required to be left at the church door in exchange for blind faith.   I need to discuss and analyze the little bits of something that help me make better decisions in life.  There is nothing wrong with analyzing or being different or seeing thing according to our own spiritual needs.  No soul was being  condemned in my post.  I'm asking what sex involves and said that I think that we in modern culture have pushed the line so far, we don't see it as sex.  That's not a condemnation.  If I wanted to, I could have said that those who pet are going to hell.  NO, I don't believe that.  

 If somebody doesn't want to be Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Buddist, it's up to them as is free volition.  Who am I?  Heaven is available and offered to all men.  Discussing the pertinent issues to refining an individual  christian walk might step on toes, but so does belief in Jesus  to those who don't think He was God.  In other words, just being a christian is a serious offence to other people.  So if being a christian or a Muslim or a Jew is an offence to someone else, should you abandon your belief in that faith?  No.  Please do not attribute something to someone to whom it does not belong.


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## Purplelover (May 20, 2010)

Ok those of you who read your Word know that we are no longer under law but we are under grace and we are guided by the Holy Spirit. So that removes the right and wrong issue of it. It may be wrong for some people because when they even think about it they feel convicted but for others it may not be a problem. Basically that is between your relationship with God. Just like for some drinking a drink may not be a problem  but for someone else, they need to stay away. God deals individually on matters that aren'
t clear sin issues like murder.


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## Guitarhero (May 20, 2010)

trenise said:


> Okay, here is something else to ponder then. Suppose you are in a marriage and it is not possible for the couple to have sex due to medical reasons? Or perhaps even the husband has no desire for his wife. Should the wife then remain celebate, even though she is married, and also never have any sexual gratification for the rest of her life?



I have to clarify beforehand before I get accused of writing the definitive end-all of the biblical doctrine erplexed  But IMHO, I think the wife would have the right to divorce her husband if he lost sexual interest in her.  That's not a marriage.  And if he couldn't due to a medical reason but wished to please her, I think it's perfectly acceptable.  They are in it together.  And IMHO, I also think that touching genitalia between wife and husband during coitus is okay.  I see no reason they shouldn't.


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## Guitarhero (May 20, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> I think it's the other way around... Sex (sexual intercourse or oral sex) falls under the category of Sexual Acts.
> 
> Kissing, holding hands, hugging, etc. could be considered "pre-sexual" activities, but not necessarily. Not all of these lead to sex nor constitute sexual behavior. I'm sure if you give someone a hug or a friend a kiss, that doesn't mean you are participating in a sexual act nor are you thinking of having sex with them.
> 
> ...



Yes, its's through tradition that people figured out in Judaism and then christianity what was permissible and what was not.  They discussed it.  Incidentally, it also doesn't talk about monogamy lol! I wonder when that came into play?

About touching, I was just adding about how it used to be considered, even here in the States until pretty recently.  We're modern now.  It is a sexual (-ly based act...as in arousal) act.  That was my point, arousal.  That's why I compared intercourse or coitus.

Just making sure people realize that I'm nobody's holy roller at all telling people are they are going to hell every split second.  According to them, I'm well on the road to hell just for my brand of faith.  I loathe those, actually. I probably just dug a hole with that statement but alas 
  I don't have any power or authority over anybody's life.


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## Sharpened (May 20, 2010)

This should not even be a debate! See how complicated man makes things? People ask for human opinions, but few want to ask Our Father what He thinks. All I can do is say what happened to me via the Holy Spirit's influence. We each cannot say anymore than that. Anything else is the person's own opinion.


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## Guitarhero (May 20, 2010)

PrissyMiss said:


> Well... we are going to have to agree to disagree. Like I stated in my previous post, I can't argue opinions and I definitely can't argue culture, especially not in spirtual context.
> Discussions are good sometimes, *but when it comes to spiritual things I stick to the truth. John 16:13 says *"But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth." That's why I can't argue culture or opinions. All I can say is that I know what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me and I have faith that he will do the same for you.




I think the problem is we're coming at this from an emotionally charged position  rather than actually reading what people have written.  I've given every indication that my participation is for discussion.  I've said numerous times that IMHO.  I'm not telling YOU what to do with your own body.  Not at all.  Of course you disagree...and vice versa.  You have every right to.   BUT....I'm not arguing opinions at all.  I'm analyzing.  To the bolded, you sealed your truth for yourself but it might not be my truth.   

As for debate of the subject?  I'm the "out" culture here.  I see nothing wrong with looking at something.  For me and my kind, it's not "this is the way it is and no questions."  We are actually encouraged to think about things.  I don't see how that is unbibilical (not directed to you...in general).  I am being sincere.


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## Poohbear (May 20, 2010)

trenise said:


> Okay, here is something else to ponder then. Suppose you are in a marriage and it is not possible for the couple to have sex due to medical reasons? Or perhaps even the husband has no desire for his wife. Should the wife then remain celebate, even though she is married, and also never have any sexual gratification for the rest of her life?


I believe it's a sin to withhold sex from your husband or wife... 

1 Corinthians 7:3-5 says, "3 Let the husband fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 *Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again lest Satan tempt you because of your lack of self-control*."

SEE, EVERYTHING'S A SIN!  (Just kidding)!


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## loolalooh (May 20, 2010)

Why is this thread still on and poppin'?  I come into this forum looking for other "lively" threads but this one won't die?  I'm with Nymphe - this should not be a debate.  Off to respond to some posts ...


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## Poohbear (May 20, 2010)

Natchitoches said:


> Yes, its's through tradition that people figured out in Judaism and then christianity what was permissible and what was not. They discussed it. *Incidentally, it also doesn't talk about monogamy lol! I wonder when that came into play?*
> 
> About touching, I was just adding about how it used to be considered, even here in the States until pretty recently. We're modern now. It is a sexual (-ly based act...as in arousal) act. That was my point, arousal. That's why I compared intercourse or coitus.
> 
> ...


 About monogamy... 1 Corinthians 7:2 is a verse that advocates monogamy too... "2 But because of immoralities, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband."

By the way, I didn't see any of your posts as being a holier than thou type attitude. I think your posts have been appropriate.


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## Poohbear (May 20, 2010)

Nymphe said:


> This should not even be a debate! See how complicated man makes things? People ask for human opinions, but few want to ask Our Father what He thinks. All I can do is say what happened to me via the Holy Spirit's influence. We each cannot say anymore than that. Anything else is the person's own opinion.


What does Our Father think? 

Does He tell some Christians, "Yes, masturbation is a sin", and tell other Christians, "No, masturbation is not a sin"?


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## loolalooh (May 20, 2010)

PrissyMiss said:


> Well... I will post an unpopular but true opinion ( at least) for me. I do not believe that maturbation is a sin depending on how the act is used. For instance, for me masturbation has been the best thing that has ever happened. As a matter of fact, I often think if I had masturbated earlier, besides following this law that I personally feel is brought on by misuse of biblical scriptures, I would have never lost my virginity. Period. I don't do it often, as a matter of fact I don't do it every month.
> 
> When I do do it, there is not a lustful thought nor the use of any porn. *However, it has stopped me from having pre-marital sex.* I just don't feel the need. I can be around a man and not feel that need to have sex. I'm not trying to be funny, but I don't believe that you can stop anything cold turkey.


 
I am happy that this is true for you.  For me, this was not the case. 



PrissyMiss said:


> Based on my situation, there is not one person on here, not one, who can convince me that *God would rather someone to fall and commit the sin of pre-marital sex, than to masturbate every now and then and remain pure.* I think as christians we have to remember that God knows our heart. I do not believe that he would fault me for masturbating knowing that the reason that I do it is to prevent myself from having sex with a man.


 
I personally believe He would rather have us do neither, but if it _had_ to come down to either, I completely agree.


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## Thiends (May 20, 2010)

loolalooh said:


> Why is this thread still on and poppin'?  I come into this forum looking for other "lively" threads but this one won't die?  I'm with Nymphe - this should not be a debate.  Off to respond to some posts ...


The topic continues because it is relevant to our lives. As you can tell from this thread, the issue is a difficult one. I appreciate other Christians' input and it seems others here feel the same way.


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## loolalooh (May 20, 2010)

Tenins said:


> I love the lively discussion. Like Nathansgirl, I actually do not find the bible verses clear, especially with the link that Crown posted. I do feel, however, that *God is leading me to be against masturbation...which, added to abstinence, makes life that much harder.*
> 
> *How has not masturbating worked out for those of you who do not masturbate? Do you feel loser to God? Less tempted to sexual sin?*
> 
> Does anyone know why Catholics came to be so strongly against masturbation while most Protestant churches are pretty much silent on it?


 
It works out well when I read the Bible daily and refrain from lustfilled shows/music/movies/arenas.  Now, if I watch a soap opera for example, I can see myself slipping.  Like Paul mentioned, we have to renew our minds again and again and again.  It isn't enough to go to church on Sunday and have one's spiritual fill for the week.


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## Guitarhero (May 20, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> About monogamy... 1 Corinthians 7:2 is a verse that advocates monogamy too... "2 But because of immoralities, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband."
> 
> By the way, I didn't see any of your posts as being a holier than thou type attitude. I think your posts *have been appropriate*.




Thanks.  About monogamy, what about the men in ancient times?  Exactly when did monogamy come into play?  Already by the time of Jesus?  I've often wondered about that.  Was He saying then that we should live according to monogramy as opposed to polygamy? 

Debate versus merely discussion.  I think it's this way.  Some people's christian "culture" is that when someone applies scripture or asks a question and if it falls in between the 10 Commandments, then it's subject to their own opinion of right and wrong,.  It  then it's a mandate for them.  For others, it might be a vehicle to further explore the subject.  Me thinks this is the problem with "reading" others.  I'm not talking about you...I've just posted too much and wanted to include that here.  But just because somebody has an opinion on something does not mean they are saying that another should not do something unless s/he sins.  That's my point.  I don't know how else to say it other than the myriad of ways I've said it before.  Anyhoo.


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## trenise (May 20, 2010)

I think this definitely is the kind of topic that is difficult to discuss with your pastor IRL, face to face. Although it may come to that. In the mean while, Christians can discuss this with other Christians and maintain a Biblical perspective.


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## loolalooh (May 20, 2010)

PrissyMiss said:


> So, basically, you guys believe that you shouldn't do any physical thing before marriage. Like Poohbear said, kissing, touching, and other things of that nature does not have to be sexual. In fact, they are great ways of showing emotions.
> 
> To address the second hand of your post, masturbation does not have to be that thing that sets people up for sex. The reason why I say this is because I know people who can't masturbate, and don't masturbate because it opens the door for sex and lust. *However, I know those who do do it becuase it closes the door to sex and lust.*
> 
> ...


 
I'm still trying to wrap my head around this and probably never will.  This question is asked with a tone of curiosity and no rudeness at all ...

So say Sarah masturbates to "close the door to sex and lust".  Let's say she masturbates 2x a day everyday.  Wouldn't God prefer for her to pray to Him 2x a day everyday instead?  to run to Him instead of to an act? (I really want to say sexual act.)

Then there's another question.  Do you view masturbation as a form of submitting to the flesh?  Would it not require greater resistance of the flesh to not masturbate at all?


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## Sharpened (May 20, 2010)

loolalooh said:


> I'm still trying to wrap my head around this and probably never will.  This question is asked with a tone of curiosity and no rudeness at all ...
> 
> So say Sarah masturbates to "close the door to sex and lust".  Let's say she masturbates 2x a day everyday.  Wouldn't God prefer for her to pray to Him 2x a day everyday instead?  to run to Him instead of to an act? (I really want to say sexual act.)
> 
> Then there's another question.  Do you view masturbation as a form of submitting to the flesh?  Would it not require greater resistance of the flesh to not masturbate at all?


Kind of conflicts with that "death to self," self-denial thing, does it not?


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## nathansgirl1908 (May 20, 2010)

Natchitoches said:


> I have to clarify beforehand before I get accused of writing the definitive end-all of the biblical doctrine erplexed  But IMHO, *I think the wife would have the right to divorce her husband if he lost sexual interest in her*.  That's not a marriage.  And if he couldn't due to a medical reason but wished to please her, I think it's perfectly acceptable.  They are in it together.  And IMHO, I also think that touching genitalia between wife and husband during coitus is okay.  I see no reason they shouldn't.



This is what I'm talking about.  I know you are stating that this is your opinion, but I find it off-putting to say that she has the "right" to divorce him.  Where does that "right" come from?  I don't believe that is a biblical "right" because I don't feel that God would be pleased with such an action.  To abandon a marriage over sex under those circumstances would be repugnant to me.  Marriage is more than sex.  I understand folks want to be "satisfied" but really?


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## Guitarhero (May 20, 2010)

PrissyMiss said:


> So, basically, *you guys *believe that you shouldn't do any physical thing before marriage.



I missed this post earlier.  No, I for one am not.  When I talk about sex, I'm talking anything pertaining to actual sexual arousal.  I know kisses and hand-holding can be innocent.  There's no "you guys" and we all have diff. opinions on what is permissible individually and not.  I mean to say that this CF is just discussion and that nobody is telling another what to believe, say or do - at least, not myself.  I don't see the CF as a ministry at all.


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## loolalooh (May 20, 2010)

Tenins said:


> The topic continues because it is relevant to our lives. As you can tell from this thread, the issue is a difficult one. I appreciate other Christians' input and it seems others here feel the same way.


 
Well y'all have suckered me in after days of avoiding this thread.  (Not sure if my rough humor translates across the screen so I will insert this.)


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## trenise (May 20, 2010)

I just wanted to mention that there are certain reactions to medication and medical conditions that can cause a person to become sexually aroused or even spontaneously climax, which have nothing to do with lusting after another person. In these rare, and bizarre situations, the person may masturbate to alleviate tension.


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## Guitarhero (May 20, 2010)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> This is what I'm talking about.  I know you are stating that *this is your opinion,* but I find it off-putting to say that she has the "right" to divorce him. * Where does that "right" come from?*  I don't believe that is a biblical "right" because I don't feel that God would be pleased with such an action.  To abandon a marriage over sex under those circumstances would be repugnant to me.  Marriage is more than sex.  I understand folks want to be "satisfied" but really?




Yes, my opinion based upon our cannon law.  It's my right to follow my own church.  Shrugs.  She asked, I gave, but I  didn't elaborate on the particulars other than to say this is permissible in mine.  If it's not permissible in yours, then by all means, please abide by what is lawful where you are.  This is why I am constantly saying on here that not all christianity is the same.  It isn't, very evidently on CF.   Now, just to clarify, I am referring to the scenario where the husband denies her and is neglecting her.  That's not a marriage and that can be annuled if approved, according to the circumstances behind it.  In *my *church, it's allowable and they would be able to remarry.  I mean, if you don't find it to be authentically christian or not, that's okay.  It doesn't bother me.


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## PrissyMiss (May 20, 2010)

loolalooh said:


> I'm still trying to wrap my head around this and probably never will.  This question is asked with a tone of curiosity and no rudeness at all ...
> 
> So say Sarah masturbates to "close the door to sex and lust".  Let's say she masturbates 2x a day everyday.  Wouldn't God prefer for her to pray to Him 2x a day everyday instead?  to run to Him instead of to an act? (I really want to say sexual act.)
> 
> Then there's another question.  Do you view masturbation as a form of submitting to the flesh?  Would it not require greater resistance of the flesh to not masturbate at all?



To answer your question if Sarah was to do  2x a day, imho she is headed towards addiction. If she is doing it everyday and 2x a day, it obviously is not working. Therefore, she needs to find another method. It is like spanking a child. If you have to spank a child 6x a day, then it is clear that that form of discipline is clearly not working. 

To answer the second part of your question, no I don't think it is, at least for me. Submission is a thing that would require you to completely give in. From my point of view, submission would be having sex of any kind.


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## PrissyMiss (May 20, 2010)

Natchitoches said:


> I missed this post earlier.  No, I for one am not.  When I talk about sex, I'm talking anything pertaining to actual sexual arousal.  I know kisses and hand-holding can be innocent.  There's no "you guys" and we all have diff. opinions on what is permissible individually and not.  I mean to say that this CF is just discussion and that nobody is telling another what to believe, say or do - at least, not myself.  I don't see the CF as a ministry at all.



This wasn't addressed to you and when I said you guys, I'm was referring to her church. Please don't get it twisted I'm not telling anybody what to believe which is why I said to you earlier that we are going to have to agree to disagree. But like I said before, I don't argue opinions especially not in religion.


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## Guitarhero (May 20, 2010)

PrissyMiss said:


> This wasn't addressed to you and when I said you guys, I'm was referring to her church. Please don't get it twisted I'm not telling anybody what to believe which is why I said to you earlier that we are going to have to agree to disagree. But like I said before, I don't argue opinions especially not in religion.




My bad, when you said "you guys,"  I assumed you meant all those in this thread who are mast.-con.  Hopefully, I still have the right to express myself without someone reminding me they disagree.


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## PrissyMiss (May 20, 2010)

Natchitoches said:


> I think the problem is we're coming at this from an emotionally charged position  rather than actually reading what people have written.  I've given every indication that my participation is for discussion.  I've said numerous times that IMHO.  I'm not telling YOU what to do with your own body.  Not at all.  Of course you disagree...and vice versa.  You have every right to.   BUT....I'm not arguing opinions at all.  I'm analyzing.  To the bolded, you sealed your truth for yourself but it might not be my truth.
> 
> As for debate of the subject?  I'm the "out" culture here.  I see nothing wrong with looking at something.  For me and my kind, it's not "this is the way it is and no questions."  We are actually encouraged to think about things.  I don't see how that is unbibilical (not directed to you...in general).  I am being sincere.



This makes me a little upset.  Why do people always jump on Christians becuase we won't argue about certain topics? Christians are encouraged to think, however it does not take away from the fact that a fact is a fact. If you ask me what does something mean and I give you a legit definition, and you decide to not accept it because of your personal opinion, then from my point of view we have nothing to discuss. How can two people have conversation when they can't even agree on a fact?


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## PrissyMiss (May 20, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> What does Our Father think?
> 
> Does He tell some Christians, "Yes, masturbation is a sin", and tell other Christians, "No, masturbation is not a sin"?



You know Poohbear, I believe that this is where the confusion is coming in. I just hope people realize that revelation ( and not the book) does exist, and your revelation is not going to be my revelation. 

I believe God is very personal. That's why ten pastors can all preach on the same topic, but not have the same message and  be right.


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## Guitarhero (May 20, 2010)

PrissyMiss said:


> This makes me a little upset.  *Why do people always jump on Christians becuase we won't argue about certain topics? *Christians are encouraged to think, however it does not take away from the fact that a fact is a fact. *If you ask me what does something mean and I give you a legit definition, and you decide to not accept it because of your personal opinion,* then from my point of view we have nothing to discuss. How can two people have conversation when they can't even agree on a fact?




Okay, I see where you're coming from.  Excuse me. I'm not  arguing anything and I'm not attempting to persuade anybody to do anything.  We've all been trained in a certain direction and when we discuss something, we all bring our training to the table.  But this is for examination of our own personal lives.  I look at all these posts and apply them to myself, to see where I stand in my own walk.  People don't have to agree at all.  We're all different.  But I think it's beneficial to discuss it.  Tenins post was very wise, IMHO, because it is a difficult subject to speak to a pastor or his wife about.  So, people come here, among other christians.  Please don't be upset.  

As for the definition, I'm not sure if you gave me the dict. defin. on sex (can't click back yet) but for that topic, I was meaning a christian view of it, not solely a dictionary definition.  I'm remembering the views on here, not necessarily the posters of them.  If it's that I don't see another's point of view because of my own brand of christianity, then that's another issue.  But per the bolded, who, me?  People jumping on christians?  I'm a christian and they do argue points.  However, I'm not arguing one, I'm discussing, looking deeper into something, eliciting responses from others, trying to figure out what it is I believe and how I will apply it personally to my life.  So, when you say opinion, do you mean what I think of a subject or if I believe whichever scripture somebody wishes to attach to it to prove the point? 

For example, someone could provide:

1 Corinthians 11:13
Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?


And there will be a myriad of interpretations on that scripture and how it should apply in this day and age.  Like that.


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## PrissyMiss (May 20, 2010)

Natchitoches said:


> So, when you say opinion, do you mean what I think of a subject or if I believe whichever scripture somebody wishes to attach to it to prove the point?



Ok, now I see where you are coming from. No when I say "opinion" I'm referring to definitions.


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## PrissyMiss (May 20, 2010)

Nymphe said:


> Kind of conflicts with that "death to self," self-denial thing, does it not?



Can you elaborate further?


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## Poohbear (May 20, 2010)

trenise said:


> I think this definitely is the kind of topic that is difficult to discuss with your pastor IRL, face to face. Although it may come to that. In the mean while, Christians can discuss this with other Christians and maintain a Biblical perspective.


 The thing that people don't realize is that the pastor is a man himself who has his own interpretation of the word too. He is not God. He's just a messenger of what he thinks God is saying to us from the Bible.


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## Poohbear (May 20, 2010)

loolalooh said:


> Well y'all have suckered me in after days of avoiding this thread. (Not sure if my rough humor translates across the screen so I will insert this.)


Me too. I'm surprised I'm even posting in the thread because I don't even masturbate. I've just never had the desire to and don't know how to...  :Blush2:


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## PrissyMiss (May 20, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Me too. I'm surprised I'm even posting in the thread because I don't even masturbate. I've just never had the desire to and don't know how to...  :Blush2:


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## Poohbear (May 20, 2010)

PrissyMiss said:


>


For real though...  I've had a few people I met ask me if I've ever done it and they are shocked and surprised that I haven't. I've just never been introduced to doing the act. I had always thought it was a guy thing, then I found out later on in life when I was in my 20's that women masturbate too!


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## PrissyMiss (May 20, 2010)

Deleted... never mind


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## loolalooh (May 20, 2010)

PrissyMiss said:


> To answer your question if Sarah was to do 2x a day, imho she is headed towards addiction. If she is doing it everyday and 2x a day, it obviously is not working. Therefore, she needs to find another method. It is like spanking a child. If you have to spank a child 6x a day, then it is clear that that form of discipline is clearly not working.
> 
> To answer the second part of your question, no I don't think it is, at least for me. Submission is a thing that would require you to completely give in. From my point of view, submission would be having sex of any kind.


 
_*Disclaimer:* Hope you don't take this as me picking on you ... I'm just very interested in this fragment of the discussion._

*Continued:* 
So when does one determine if the spanking is working? If one only spanks the child 1x a week? 1x a month? or if the child eventually never has to be spanked again?  Same with masturbation.

What is a sign that masturbation is "working"? If it's meant to keep one from having sex, then isn't it "working" for Sarah? 

.... Or do we know that masturbation is "working" when it gets to a point that we never have to do it againerplexed? (I'm applying the spanking analogy here and assuming that spanking works if it never has to be done again.)

Basically, what I'm getting at is 1) how does one define "working", 2) how frequent is too frequent, and 3) what's wrong with running to *prayer time or time with God as an alternative "method"? *


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## Farida (May 20, 2010)

You have to define whether or not masturbation is a sin before you compare it to premarital sex. If it is not a sin, then it is preferable to premarital sex. If it is a sin, then surely you cannot say God prefers one sin over another. That is man's spin on sin. For God, sin is sin (unless you are Catholic and go into mortal v. venial sin). So, before you compare it you have to judge it on its merits.

Jesus gave the highest standard. You could argue, it is better for a man to fantasize about a married woman than have sex with her. For us men, that is preferable, but Jesus said even mere thoughts constitute adultery.

So, you must judge the act before you compare it.

All I know on this topic is Catholic oppose it, I think the consensus is that about 95% of boys do/have done it and the rest are known to lie about it. 

It is a terrible thing if it is done with lust - which I don't understand how one can do it without lusting or if you divert sexual energy that you should direct to your husband elsewhere. Basically you scratch your itch and you now have less interest to take care of your spouse.

But I cannot repeat it enough. You must judge it on its own merit, whether or not it is a sin, not whether or not it is preferable to other actions. If we go down that road there is no end...


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## PrissyMiss (May 20, 2010)

loolalooh said:


> _*Disclaimer:* Hope you don't take this as me picking on you ... I'm just very interested in this fragment of the discussion._
> 
> *Continued:*
> So when does one determine if the spanking is working? If one only spanks the child 1x a week? 1x a month? or if the child eventually never has to be spanked again?  Same with masturbation.
> ...



Actually I don't feel picked on because I realize that this way of thinking is different and is not often expressed. 

Futhermore, to offer another point of view, I assumed that Sarah found herself masturbating a couple times of day out of sexual frustration. From the conversations that I have had with those who are like Sarah, I can tell that masturbation is something that they do to replace sex because they don't have anybody to have sex with, not to keep themselves from having sex. Does that make sense? So for that kind of person masturbation would become a temporary solution. I believe that temporary solutions aren't really solutions at all  because ,I'm sure for those like Sarah ,once they find themselves in a sexual position again they would fall, because it was never really a solution to begin with.

However, I would say that if masturbation curves the thought and the act of sex, than it is working. From my understanding that is what masturbation is for. It's an act used to curve a desire and in order to curve the desire, you have to curve the thought as well.

So, if Sarah is not masturbating out of sexual frustration, but indeed committing the act multiple times because she can't get her mind off of sex, then it isn't working. That would let me know that masturbation was only allowing Sarah to think about sex even more. 

As far as spanking that's a different topic for a different day.


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## PrissyMiss (May 20, 2010)

Farida, to address your post although I said that I don't believe that God would have me do it because it stops me from committing the act of premarital sex, I wasn't saying that I believe that one sin is greater than another, and that God prefers one sin over another. However, I said what I said because I don't think masturabtion is a sin, and I am basing that on 1) I still can't find any biblical scriputure that supports the thought, and 2) because I know that it can actually curve the desire to have sex and curve lustful thoughts.


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## nathansgirl1908 (May 20, 2010)

Natchitoches said:


> Yes, my opinion based upon our cannon law.  It's my right to follow my own church.  Shrugs.  She asked, I gave, but I  didn't elaborate on the particulars other than to say this is permissible in mine.  If it's not permissible in yours, then by all means, please abide by what is lawful where you are.  This is why I am constantly saying on here that not all christianity is the same.  It isn't, very evidently on CF.   Now, just to clarify, I am referring to the scenario where the husband denies her and is neglecting her.  That's not a marriage and that can be annuled if approved, according to the circumstances behind it.  In *my *church, it's allowable and they would be able to remarry.  I mean, if you don't find it to be authentically christian or not, that's okay.  It doesn't bother me.



And that's what I don't understand.  At the end of the day, aren't we supposed to be following GOD and not the rules imposed by our various churches?  If a husband is neglecting a wife and denying her, then that couple should seek counseling because there are deeper issues there.

On another note, I'm amazed that apparently it is foreign to think a married woman would fantasize about her own husband while masturbating.  Never mind that he could be overseas in iraq which is why she might feel the need to masturbate.


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## Guitarhero (May 20, 2010)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> And that's what I don't understand.  At the end of the day, aren't we supposed to be* following GOD *and not the rules imposed by our various churches?  If a husband is neglecting a wife and denying her, then that couple should seek counseling because there are deeper issues there.




Yes, by my following my church which follows scripture and sacred or divine tradition.  That's another story aside from the topic.  I don't make converts but here's a scripture.  Everyone should follow what they have been taught or what they believe to be the truth.  I don't see the problem but I think Poohbear summed it up well.  Even the pastor gives an interpretation of what he believes to be the truth but he is only a man.

II Thessalonians 2:15
"But we should always give thanks to God for you,  brethren  beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for  salvation  through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. And it was  for this  that He called you through our gospel that you may gain the glory of our  Lord  Jesus Christ. So then, brethren, stand firm and hold fast to the  traditions  which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us."



About neglecting one's wife, I'm not saying head for the divorce court and never seek counseling.  I'm saying that those are grounds for considering their union severely flawed and incomplete, which could be granted an annulment.


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## nathansgirl1908 (May 21, 2010)

Natchitoches said:


> About neglecting one's wife, I'm not saying head for the divorce court and never seek counseling.  I'm saying that those are grounds for considering their union severely flawed and incomplete, which could be granted an annulment.



But who determines that it is flawed and incomplete?  Man or God?  Does God place that much emphasis on sex that He would say the marriage is flawed and incomplete?


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## Guitarhero (May 21, 2010)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> But who determines that it is flawed and incomplete?  Man or God?  Does God place that much emphasis on sex that He would say the marriage is flawed and incomplete?



Well, I'll say this, authority was given and what is bound on earth is bound in heaven.  So, for us, we follow this sacred tradition because it is divinely given.  

Marriages that are flawed or incomplete are those that are not truly marriages.  All the conditions weren't met in the beginning of the marriage.  Who determines?  We do, based upon what God gives us.  But doesn't faith work the same way?  It's not superimposed on anybody.  We're not robots.  But this is kinda off topic and I do certainly comprehend why you are asking.    I guess it's that there are people who are in your denomination and there are other people in ours and in others.  We will never change to become another.   We just all have to learn to live together with mutual respect realizing that the differences exist.  Shrugs and hugs.


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## nathansgirl1908 (May 21, 2010)

Natchitoches said:


> Well, I'll say this, authority was given and what is bound on earth is bound in heaven.  So, for us, we follow this sacred tradition because it is divinely given.
> 
> Marriages that are flawed or incomplete are those that are not truly marriages.  All the conditions weren't met in the beginning of the marriage.  Who determines?  We do, based upon what God gives us.  But doesn't faith work the same way?  It's not superimposed on anybody.  We're not robots.  But this is kinda off topic and I do certainly comprehend why you are asking.    I guess it's that there are people who are in your denomination and there are other people in ours and in others.  We will never change to become another.   We just all have to learn to live together with mutual respect realizing that the differences exist.  Shrugs and hugs.



But what is sacred about declaring a marriage as flawed and incomplete because of a lack of sex?  That's the part that I think is more about man than God.  When someone decides that a marriage is flawed and incomplete because of sex, in that instance it appears that there is no focus on the other parts.  Women on here talk about how they want to get married to be a helpmate.  You can be a helpmate even without the sex.  If a spouse is tragically injured which renders that person completely unable to have sex, the marriage can still be strong if they were married for the right reasons.  

I understand that we all have different denominations, but there are some things that are just basic in the kingdom of God.  Is there scripture that states that a marriage and is flawed and incomplete because of a lack of sex?


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## Guitarhero (May 21, 2010)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> But what is sacred about declaring a marriage as flawed and incomplete because of a lack of sex?  That's the part that I think is more about man than God.  When someone decides that a marriage is flawed and incomplete because of sex, in that instance it appears that there is no focus on the other parts.  Women on here talk about how they want to get married to be a helpmate.  You can be a helpmate even without the sex.  If a spouse is tragically injured which renders that person completely unable to have sex, the marriage can still be strong if they were married for the right reasons.
> *
> I understand that we all have different denominations*, but there are some things that are just basic in the kingdom of God.  Is there scripture that states that a marriage and is flawed and incomplete because of a lack of sex?



You're basically coming at it from a different theological stance, one which is based upon scripture only.  That's the reason why I repeat that there are many differences in the body.  About the sex, it's not simple like that.  That's why it has to go through a court process to determine if it can be annulled or not. I'm not saying that people should seek divorce but if, at the beginning of a marriage, he held out information that he was, for example, impotent, she has a right to divorce him.  He came in fully aware he was cheating her.  Of course, this is our side.  I don't expect other's to agree nor even comprehend it.  Nothing is very simple, one has to dig deep into the conditions of the situation in cases like those.  I'm getting an  annulment and when I remarry, I will not in the least bit be worried about committing adultery.  My marriage wasn't at all valid (not for the reasons stated above.  Not throwing that on the ex I'll rise above him!).  But isn't this beside the topic of whether masturbation is sinful or not?


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## CoilyFields (May 21, 2010)

PrissyMiss said:


> So, basically, you guys believe that you shouldn't do any physical thing before marriage. Like Poohbear said, kissing, touching, and other things of that nature does not have to be sexual. In fact, they are great ways of showing emotions.
> 
> 
> So how would masturbation fall into the category of fornication?


 

Others may not but I do completely believe that kissing and touching should not happen before marriage. It may seem extreme but I think that is because we have all grown up in a culture where everything sexual is permissable and we are measuring it by the worlds standards rather than Gods.

If God designed sex for marriage than every act that comes under that umbrella is forbidden.

I guess look at it like this: if you are married, the same things you wouldnt want your husband doing with another woman...are the same things that would constitute sexual impurity before marriage.  Kissing is sexual, touching is sexual...and we all know in what context Im talking about (i.e. not a kiss on the cheek from your grandpa, not a pat on the back from your coworker etc.) 

Disclaimer: Oh my goodness I am so guilty of having not followed this and have repented for my numerous sins in this area.


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## CoilyFields (May 21, 2010)

PrissyMiss said:


> Futhermore, to offer another point of view, I assumed that Sarah found herself masturbating a couple times of day out of sexual frustration. From the conversations that I have had with those who are like Sarah, I can tell *that masturbation is something that they do to replace sex because they don't have anybody to have sex with, not to keep themselves from having sex.* Does that make sense?
> However, I would say that if masturbation curves the thought and the act of sex, than it is working. From my understanding that is what masturbation is for. It's an act used to curve a desire and in order to curve the desire, you have to curve the thought as well.


 
Im a little confused with your explanation. 

Isnt the bolded the same thing? the point of masturbation is to release sexual frustration (meaning you are aroused and whether by choice or circumstance, have no one appropriate to satisfy you-like a husband-so you engage in this act of masturbation to reach satisfaction.

Because masturbation satisfies you temporarily rather than curb the desire...because eventually you do it again? (I would say how often may depend on your own libido)


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## trenise (May 21, 2010)

Oh. I want to make another point on the issue of how can someone masturbate without having lustful thoughts. Many people who have intellectual disabilities masturbate on the regular, even in front of people. Many of them are so mentally incapacitated, I dare say they can't fantasize about someone sexually. Somewhere along they way, they discovered a sensation that was pleasing to them, and for them, that's all it is.


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## CoilyFields (May 21, 2010)

^^^ I was assuming that we were only talking about people who CAN help it. People with disabilities are held to a different standard based on their particular abilities (I strongly believe).

OT: I really do enjoy debating/discussing with you ladies. Of course this is not something that we would present to unbelievers or even babes in Christ because there are so much more important things to learn. Not all issues are heaven or hell issues but as we continue on this Christian walk God expects us to live holy, and to be going from glory to glory. Once we learn better, we do better and I appreciate all the viewpoints that people have to offer! Keep them coming!!! 

It forces me to examine the reasons I hold certain beliefs and if they are based on the word, tradition, or my own interpretation, and whether I should keep or toss them. We should all regularly examine ourselves, as the bible says and I find this forum keeps me on my toes! Thanks!!


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## Guitarhero (May 21, 2010)

trenise said:


> Oh. I want to make another point on the issue of how can someone masturbate without having lustful thoughts. Many people who have intellectual disabilities masturbate on the regular, even in front of people. Many of them are so mentally incapacitated, I dare say they can't fantasize about someone sexually. Somewhere along they way, they discovered a sensation that was pleasing to them, and for them, that's all it is.




That's true.  I had a little girl jump me.  We were at the bus stop and she just sat on my lap and went to town.  The grip of that 12 year old child, like a gorilla.  Her mother was so apologetic. I didn't act afraid because I knew she had developmental problems and didn't want to further embarass her mom.  But that's true, they cannot at all control themselves.  It's purely physical, not emotional.


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## PrissyMiss (May 21, 2010)

CoilyFields said:


> Im a little confused with your explanation.
> 
> Isnt the bolded the same thing? the point of masturbation is to release sexual frustration (meaning you are aroused and whether by choice or circumstance, have no one appropriate to satisfy you-like a husband-so you engage in this act of masturbation to reach satisfaction.
> 
> Because masturbation satisfies you temporarily rather than curb the desire...because eventually you do it again? (I would say how often may depend on your own libido)



No it's not the same thing, which is why you have to read the sentence in its entirety. I was explaining that some people do it because they don't have anyone to have sex with , rather than masturbating to stop having sex period and to curve the thought of sex.

This is why I say definitions are important. That's how you perceive masturbation. Sexual frustration and feeling horny are two different things. Feeling horny is a biological, natural thing. Hence the reason, this thread is still going. The only time I ever feel the need to masturbate is when I am ovulating. Any other time, since I am not sexually frustrated, I'm okay.


 To better help you understand, here is a definition from wikipedia: 
"Sexual frustration describes the condition in which a person is in a state of agitation, stress or anxiety due to prolonged sexual inactivity and/or sexual dissatisfaction that leads them to want more sex or better sex, or a state in which he/she is sexually aroused (accusatory sense), although more often it implies simply an uncomfortably low level of sexual activity.
Lack of sexual activity is not the only cause of sexual frustration; the condition may also be caused by a lack of a desired activity, such as acting out fantasies or trying new positions. In many cases, sexual frustration leads to compulsive masturbation."

How high or low the libido has no correlation with how often one masturbates.
Man, maybe I should become a Sex Therapist or a Sex Educator. :scratchch


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## PrissyMiss (May 21, 2010)

CoilyFields said:


> Others may not but I do completely believe that kissing and touching should not happen before marriage. It may seem extreme but I think that is because we have all grown up in a culture where everything sexual is permissable and we are measuring it by the worlds standards rather than Gods.
> 
> If God designed sex for marriage than every act that comes under that umbrella is forbidden.
> 
> ...



I would disagree. One of the personalities that God injected in every person is the need to be and feel loved. To agree with what you are saying, imho, it goes against biolgoy. It goes against the way he created us. No matter how clingy or independent a person is, they want to feel affection. It's an innate desire. Kissing, touching, and etc. do not necessarily have to be sexual even in a romantic relationship. I guarantee you, any person can tell the difference between an affectionate kiss and a sexual kiss. For instance, if I was a married woman, and I walked in the house and kissed my husband upon seeing him, that kiss would not be a sexual kiss, it would be an affectionate.


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## CoilyFields (May 21, 2010)

^^^But you would not accept that explanation from your husband if he went up and kissed an unrelated woman on the lips...due to the affection he felt toward her. Because there is a certain set of privilages that are reserved for a spouse because of the intimate nature of them. 

I totally agree that God designed us with a desire for affection. He gave us many feelings and desires. My point is that there are appropriate outlets for these desires. They can become sinful if used in counterfeit situations. God created the institution of marriage as an outlet for all of those feelings of affection, desires, sexual longing etc. Just becuase you feel a certain way before you are married does not mean you have a right to act on it...every since the fall of humans we have been out of tune with the perfect order of God and have had to force ourselves into subjection.

Also, feeling horney and feeling sexual frustration, whether you consider them the same or different, lead to the same outcome...masturbation. It seems that youre saying that your intentions are what make it a sin or not. While I am saying that the act is a sin outside of marriage. Dont get me wrong, I do understand where Paul said many things are lawful but not everything is expedient and good for me. I dont consider masturbation one of those lawful things that you choose if its good for you.

Which takes us back to the basic question of the thread lol...Is masturbation a sin. You say depends, I say yes outside of marriage. We can agree to disagree because I now completely understand your stance and I think you understand mine!


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## PrissyMiss (May 21, 2010)

I just want to make one thing clear. My stance on masturbation is: it is not a sin. I view this topic like the topic of anger. Anger does not glorify God, yet the bible clearly states that there is nothing wrong with being angry. It isn't a sin to get angry, but it's what you do during that moment of anger that can result in sin. That's how I view masturbation. From my point of view masturbation itself is not sin, there is still no scripture that says that masturbation is a sin, however, it is the pornography, the lust, the fantasies that can easily turn it into a sin. But we are going to have to agree to disagree. 

I'm won't say that  I am right and you are wrong, but I won't say that you are right and I am wrong either. Like I said before, the Holy Spirit reveals certain things to certain in people in certain seasons. This is just one thing he has revealed to me.


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## nathansgirl1908 (May 21, 2010)

CoilyFields said:


> Because there is a certain set of privilages that are reserved for a spouse because of the intimate nature of them.



There is a certain set of privileges reserved for someone you are with.  Doesn't HAVE to be a spouse.  The same thing could be said for a boyfriend/girlfriend.


Realistically since we are prone to sin, we should be careful not to set unreasonable standards for ourselves.  To date someone without ever holding hands or kissing is such a standard.


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## Guitarhero (May 21, 2010)

For American and western culture in general perhaps because that is not the standard and certain stigma have been removed and taken out of the realm of sin.  In an eastern christian culture, little physical contact is desirable and expected to maintain holiness.  Maybe we need to abide by our own limitations due to our cultures.  But some things are absolutely forbidden.  We're just on the fence about what those are exactly.  And perhaps any kind of physical contact in the past was frowned upon as a fence law, to prevent escalation of passions.  The issue then might become what is considered scandal.  The perceptions will vary by culture and age.  So, what might cause one christian to sin should be avoided.  What might not cause another to sin is allowable.


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## CoilyFields (May 24, 2010)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> There is a certain set of privileges reserved for someone you are with. Doesn't HAVE to be a spouse. The same thing could be said for a boyfriend/girlfriend.
> 
> 
> Realistically since we are prone to sin, we should be careful not to set unreasonable standards for ourselves. To date someone without ever holding hands or kissing is such a standard.


 

The Bible only talks about sexual and intimate privilages as relating to spouses. WE created the in-between statuses of boyfriends and girlfriends and friends with benefits etc. hence the confusion about boundaries and such.

Also, our ability to meet the standard does not mean we should (or even have the authority to) lower the bar. a lot of standards may seem unreasonable simply because they go against what we are used to and desire. 

As Natchitoches mentioned above, other cultures have no problem enforcing and abiding by those standards and they create envirionments that support those morals ( of course we are at a disadvantage because american culture does its best to ensure that you think about sex on a regular basis!). So its not like its impossible...its just become acceptable...which doesnt necessarily make it right.


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