# Soooo I was watching Creflo talk about a recording of hell



## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 7, 2009)

this morning.  I'm not sure what I think about this.  I found a video on line talking about it.  I have never head of this before.  Sorry if this has been posted before.

http://www.tangle.com/view_video.php?viewkey=505c33a5007bc38d456c

At first I laughed then I thought about it and decided to look it up.  Has anyone got more info on this?


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## BeautifulFlower (Apr 7, 2009)

WOW! WOW! WOW! 

"there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth..."

The greatest deception the devil pulled was convincing people he didnt exist. If you dont believe he exist and that hell doesnt exist, you won't be held responsible for your actions. 

Glory to God Jesus came to save us from our sins so that we do not have live eternally without Him.


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 7, 2009)

I had the same reaction.  He was says hell is under us in the center of the Earth.  I always thought of hell as a spiritual place not literally under us.


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## BeautifulFlower (Apr 7, 2009)

Now, there we may not be able to see people in there as there are spirits but I believe spirits can be audible in the physical. 

Thats completely facsinating. In the center of the earth, huh? 

Mark Driscoll talks about hell. He actually had a debate with some men that does not believe hell exist (meaning we do not need Jesus). Thats why its so important to understand spiritual warfare. We are engaged in a war ya'll. The battleground is our minds. Fruits of the spirit and the armor of God is neccessary. Prayer, fasting, and understanding your bible is necessary to win daily.


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 7, 2009)

prettyfaceANB said:


> Now, there we may not be able to see people in there as there are spirits but I believe spirits can be audible in the physical.
> 
> Thats completely facsinating. In the center of the earth, huh? Didnt know that, makes sense and its good to know.
> 
> Mark Driscoll talks about hell. He actually had a debate with some men that does not believe hell exist (meaning we do not need Jesus). Thats why its so important to understand spiritual warfare. *We are engaged in a war ya'll. The battleground is our minds. Fruits of the spirit and the armor of God is neccessary. Prayer, fasting, and understanding your bible is necessary to win daily.*





Preach the truth!  Let me go look up Mark Driscoll


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## BeautifulFlower (Apr 7, 2009)

EbonyHairedPrincess said:


> [/b]
> 
> 
> Preach the truth! Let me go look up Mark Driscoll


 
Here's the series: 
http://www.marshillchurch.org/media/spiritual-warfare/introduction-to-spiritual-warfare


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 7, 2009)

Thank you so much.  You just gave me my lunch time reading.


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 7, 2009)

Okay I asked around and here is a website that was given to me that puts this story back into prospective.

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/d/drilltohellfacts.htm


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 7, 2009)

*Background on the Drilling to Hell story *
By Rich Buhler *[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]
*

I first heard about this story from people who started calling my radio program to ask about it in the early 1990s. There was such a flurry of calls that I finally promised the listeners I'd look into it. Most of the callers said they'd heard the story on Trinity Broadcasting Network, a Christian television network that originates from Southern California. 
I called Trinity Broadcasting headquarters and asked about the story. I was transferred to a woman who said, 'Oh yes, it's true all right. We've got documentation. It's in our latest newsletter.'

I was on the network's mailing list, so I looked through a pile of recent mail and found the article. The newsletter said the details had come from the translation of an article in a Finnish newspaper named 'Ammennusatia'. It claimed:
A geological group who drilled a hole about 14.4 kilometers deep in the crust of the earth are saying that they heard human screams. Screams have been heard from the condemned souls from earth's deepest hole. Terrified scientists are afraid they have let loose the evil powers of hell up to the earth's surface. 'The information we are gathering is so surprising, that we are sincerely afraid of what we might find down there,' stated Dr Azzacov, the manager of the project in remote Siberia. ​According to the story, the geologists were dumbfounded. After they had drilled several kilometers through the earth's crust, the drill bit suddenly began to rotate wildly. 'There is only one explanation,' said Dr Azzacov. 'The deep center of the earth is hollow!' The report continued: The second surprise was the high temperature they discovered in the earth's center. 'The calculations indicate the given temperature was about 1,100 degrees Celsius, or over 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit,' Azzacov pointed out. 'This is far more then we expected. It seems almost like an inferno of fire is brutally going on in the center of the earth.' 

'The last discovery was nevertheless the most shocking to our ears, so much so that the scientists are afraid to continue the project. We tried to listen to the earth's movements at certain intervals with supersensitive microphones, which were let down through the hole. What we heard turned those logically thinking scientists into a trembling ruins. It was a sometimes a weak, but high pitched sound which we thought to be coming from our own equipment,' explained Dr Azzacov. 'But after some adjustments we comprehended that indeed the sound came from the earth's interior. We could hardly believe our own ears. We heard a human voice, screaming in pain. Even though one voice was discernible, we could hear thousands, perhaps millions, in the background, of suffering souls screaming. After this ghastly discovery, about half of the scientists quit because of fear. Hopefully, that which is down there will stay there,' Dr Azzacov added. ​ According to the Trinity Broadcasting Network newsletter, the Finnish article had been given to them by a Texas evangelist, R.W. Schambach, who was a frequent guest on their network. 
We checked with Schambach's office and were assured that the story was 'absolutely true' and had been substantiated. They said they had an article from a 'respected scientific journal' in Finland, as well as a letter from a Norwegian man, Age Rendalen, who had confirmed it. Rendalen had sent his letter directly to Trinity Broadcasting Network and the details he revealed added a new dimension to the story. 
Rendalen told the network that he had visited United States a few weeks earlier and happened upon their telecast about the Drilling to Hell story. He wrote:
I must confess that I laughed when I heard your account... I did not believe one word of it, and commented to my friend that Americans sure were gullible to believe that hell could be physically located to a hole in the ground. I cannot even begin to tell you what a shock it was to me when I returned to Norway and found the newspapers full of reports about this incident. I knew immediately that if there was a hell, I for sure would end up in it. A tremendous fear took hold of me, and for two nights I dreamed about fire and screams until I surrendered to God and committed my life to his hands for safe-keeping.​In the letter, Rendalen went on to encourage the network not to let 'skeptics' interfere with their telling of the story. He included a copy and translation of what he claimed was an article from Norway's largest and most reputable newspaper, with more information about the drilling. Rendalen's translation of the article told of opposition to the drilling by Russian atheists, as well as government intimidation to keep the scientists from telling the rest of the world about their discovery. The account, which drew on the eyewitness testimony of a Mr Nummedal, also added a new detail:
What really unnerved the Soviets, apart from the voice recordings, was the appearance that same night of a fountainhead of luminous gas shooting up from the drill site, and out of the midst of this incandescent cloud pillar a brilliant being with bat wings revealed itself with the words (in Russian): 'I have conquered,' emblazoned against the dark Siberian sky. 'The incident was absolutely unreal; the Soviets cried out in terror,' says Mr Nummedal. Later that night, he saw ambulance crews circulating in the community. A driver he knew told him that they had been told to sedate everybody with a medication known to erase short term memory. The Soviets use this drug in the treatment of shock victims. ​So we now had not only a story about drilling into hell, but an additional version with a bat-like creature making an appearance. [/FONT]


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## blazingthru (Apr 7, 2009)

I don't believe that hell is created or that there is such place in existence today. Hell is another word for the grave. The lake of fire will be created after the 1,000.00 years have passed.  This is just the devil trying to scare people. When this should not be the focused having a relationship with God and obeying his commandment and loving one another should be the focus.  Satan rather have everyone run around in fear and most people will not examine the scriptures to see what is real and what is not.


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 7, 2009)

My staff and I decided to roll up our shirt sleeves and trace the story as far as we could, especially since we had the names of newspapers and at least one individual who might know the facts. 
The Finnish newspaper 'Ammennusastia,' which is quoted in nearly every account of the story, is located in an area called Levasjoki. We had a phone conversation with a staff member who told us the publication is not a 'respected newspaper' or a 'scientific journal', as we had been told, but a monthly publication of a group of Finnish Christians. The Drilling to Hell story, he said, had been based on the word of mouth recollection of another staff member, who had remembered reading it as a 'major article' in a Finnish daily newspaper called 'Etela Soumen'. 
We contacted this newspaper and at first they couldn't recall or find the story. However, we later received a call saying they had discovered that the tale had appeared in their paper. It was not in an article, however, but in a feature section that included letters from readers who could write about almost anything they wished. 
Through the newspaper, we tracked down the person who wrote the letter with the Drilling to Hell story. He was a kind, elderly man who, in spite of being reluctant to talk with us initially, told us through an interpreter that he couldn't vouch for the credibility of the story. He got it, he said, from a Christian newsletter called 'Vaeltajat', which was published by a group of Finnish missionaries. 
We next contacted 'Vaeltajat'. The editor said the story had been printed in their July 1989 issue. Where did he hear about it? He had received it from one of their readers, who claimed it had appeared in a newsletter called 'Jewels of Jericho', published by a group of Jewish Christians in California. And that is where the Finnish trail came to an end. 
One thing was clear at this point: The Drilling to Hell story was looking and smelling like a pretty typical urban legend. It was sensational, impossible to document, and only had life because of all the small publications that were quoting one another's unsubstantiated stories. 
However, there was still the Norwegian man, Age Rendalen, who had told the story of the ominous, bat-like creature emerging from the drill-hole. The article in the Trinity Broadcasting Network newsletter said he lived near Oslo, so we called directory assistance and found him in about 45 seconds. I talked with him on the phone myself:
'Are you the one who sent information to a Christian television network in the United States about scientists drilling into hell?' I asked. 
'Yes,' he said without hesitation. 
'Well,' I continued, 'Do you have any way of knowing whether it is true?' 
'Yes I do,' he replied. 
'Tell me about it,' I asked. 
'None of it is true,' he said. 'I fabricated every word of it!' 
Rendalen went on to explain that he had visited the US a few weeks earlier and had seen the host of a Christian television program enthusiastically relating the Drilling to Hell story. He told me: 'I couldn't believe that the hosts really thought the story was true and that they would broadcast it without apparently having checked it out.'


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 7, 2009)

When he returned to Norway, Rendalen sat down and fabricated the graphic story of the bat-like creature and sent his letter to the television network. His prediction was that they would use the story without investigating it. To make an investigation easy for them, he included his name, address and telephone number on his letter. He also included what he claimed was an article on the story from 'Norway's largest and most reputable newspaper'. In fact, the article, which he falsely translated, was a piece in his local community paper about a building inspector. 
Rendalen also included the name and telephone number of a pastor friend based in Southern California. This pastor knew about the hoax and was prepared to reveal the truth if someone called to research it further with him. 
However, as predicted, Trinity Broadcasting Network ran the story without contacting Renalden or the Californian pastor, and it appeared on television, radio and in a large number of publications. None of those who used the story attempted to research it before going public. 
'2000 PEOPLE HAVE FOUND CHRIST!' 
On 6th February 1990, a listener of mine sent me a letter. She had videotaped and documented all three occasions when this story was discussed on the Christian TV show put out by the network. On 29th January 1990, the show host is documented as saying:
Let me just say, all of you that have written me all those nasty letters about the 'hole in hell', let me tell you I finally got the newspaper article which is from 'The World Weekly'. This is an international newspaper that has been translated into English from Finnish. 'Scientists fear they've opened gates of hell! Geologists drilling nine-mile hole hear human shrieks.' 
I got a letter today from a geologist in Oklahoma and he's really giving me a rough time. He says that there isn't anything that could drill that deep. Folks, I'm just reporting what people have been sending to me and I don't know if this is true or not. I know one thing, if this is a trick of the Devil, he sure has blown it, because I know of about 2,000 people that have found Christ because of it! 
True or false, I'll tell you what I'm doing, though. We're now going to do some investigative reporting of our own and we're going to check with the Finnish government and the Department of the Interior and we're really going to follow this up and see if they really did drill a hole nine miles down there, if they really did have a microphone down there, if they really did hear human shrieks of agony and pain as this newspaper article and as did many letters I have received from over there have indicated to us. If I'm wrong and they're right, I've got nothing to lose. But if I'm right and you're wrong, you've got everything to lose. 
Unfortunately, the investigation by the show took place too late to prevent the damage of a widely spread rumor in the Christian community. 
Rendalen has now issued an official statement about his actions and the whole incident, which says: 'The story is nothing more than a Christian "urban legend" without basis in reality.' 
There are a couple of postscripts to this incident. One is that the respected magazine, 'Biblical Archaeology Review', printed a story about the Drilling to Hell story, thinking it was so outrageous that readers would get a kick out of it. Many of the readers took the article seriously, however, and either started passing it around as substantiation of the story, or wrote to the magazine to complain that it shouldn't have given it respectability. 
Secondly, in August of 1990, I was contacted by the pastor of a small church in Flagstaff, Arizona, who informed me that he had proof that this story was true. Apparently, a man from his church, who was believed to be a PhD in Physics from MIT, came forward in private to claim that he was a scientist who had been on a secret mission in Russia for the past year and had met with Mikhail Gorbachev several times. He verified that the Drilling to Hell story was indeed true. He claimed:
A hole was drilled deep into the crust of the earth in Siberia and a large cavity was found. Unfortunately, news of this was leaked to the press and was distorted. It is true that a recording was made of the sounds from deep in the hole, but the intense heat destroyed the microphone in spite of special cooling material around it, so that only seventeen seconds of sounds could be captured. At the present time, scientists are drilling a second hole to confirm what was found the first time. And a better system is being developed for cooling the microphone. 
The scientist went on to claim that he was helping to design this microphone and was returning to Siberia shortly to further document the phenomenon. He planned to return in about a year with more confirming information on this amazing phenomenon. 
Six months later, I got a letter from another member of the church saying that this man had turned out to be neither a graduate of MIT nor a scientist. In fact, he had skipped town with over $20,000 collected from church members who wanted to help finance his expedition. 
How did this story originate? Again, we will never really know. It is possible that somewhere in the world there has been a spooky experience during deep drilling operations. I don't know. According to an August 1989 article in 'Science' magazine, there is a Russian deep hole drilling project in Kola, near Murmansk, about 150 miles north of the Arctic Circle. Another German deep drilling experiment in north-east Bavaria has discovered warmer temperatures than were expected at certain drilling levels, although nothing even close to 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit. 
Characteristic of many urban legends, this story was alleged to have occurred in an obscure part of the world where it would be virtually impossible to track down the facts. And once the story got started, people began quoting one another's newsletters to validate their own. This is the stuff of which tabloid newspapers are made.


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## blazingthru (Apr 7, 2009)

Drilling to hell is foolishness and there is going to be plenty of it happening in the next up coming months.  More and more stuff to keep the people stumbling instead of just turning to God and repenting.


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 7, 2009)

I agree with drilling to hell being foolish which is why I asked about it.  This isn't something I made up this was something a respected pastor spoke on this morning on television.


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## blazingthru (Apr 7, 2009)

If people continue to do as they please and dont' love God, yes they will burn in the lake of fire that will be created for that purpose according to what each person has done and its not forever its until you die.  Until you turn to dust in this case ash.  So what do you do, you don't trust in your ideals your feelings you trust in the word of God and lean on all of his words. you put your life (and be wiling to give it up for God that reward is greater then anything you can ever imagine) in jesus hands and follow him. until you pass from this life.  don't look back whats back there could never ever had made you happy anyway. 

The Bible says the penalty for sin is “death" (Romans 6:23), and "destruction" (Job 21:30). The wicked "shall perish" (Psalm 37:20), "burn" up (Malachi 4:1), "be destroyed together" (Psalm 37:38), "shall be cut off" (Psalm 37:9), and "shall be slain" (Psalm 62:3). These references and many more make it clear that the wicked die and are destroyed.

The Bible does say that the wicked will receive their just rewards—some greater than others—based on their works (Revelation 22:12; Matthew 16:27; Luke 12:47, 48). But they do not live forever in misery.


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## blazingthru (Apr 7, 2009)

blazingthru said:


> I don't believe that hell is created or that there is such place in existence today. Hell is another word for the grave. The lake of fire will be created after the 1,000.00 years have passed. This is just the devil trying to scare people. When this should not be the focused having a relationship with God and obeying his commandment and loving one another should be the focus. Satan rather have everyone run around in fear and most people will not examine the scriptures to see what is real and what is not.


 

I mean think about it, what is God going to do pull people out of hell and judge them again and say go back.  Its makes no sense none of it.  After the 1,000.00 years everyone that died without repenting will be brought back to life for another battle or what they believed to be a battle only to be judged and then sentence, if they are already in hell what is the point of bringing them back.  The dead know nothing.  NOTHING.  there is no light no angles good or bad coming to get them.  they are dead period.  Their breath of life goes back to god their bodies goes back to dust. they are not in hell perishing they are asleep without dreams.  Saved and unsaved or dead - asleep no dreams no awareness they know nothing at all. NOTHING.


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## BeautifulFlower (Apr 7, 2009)

Though I dont totally agree (I will research), but I do absolutely agree that we should not put too much focus on hell, Satan, or demons. Our relationship with God is about his love for us and our love, obedience and fear (respect and awe of his power) of him not Satan or hell. If you run to Jesus because you dont want to go to hell you miss the point. 

We were all destined to hell. Yet God had mercy and grace toward us because we are just dust and we can not control the fact that we have a sin nature. We rejoice in Jesus because he paid the cost we would have paid in hell. Now we can (if we receive salvation) live forever with him. 



blazingthru said:


> I don't believe that hell is created or that there is such place in existence today. Hell is another word for the grave. The lake of fire will be created after the 1,000.00 years have passed. This is just the devil trying to scare people. When this should not be the focused having a relationship with God and obeying his commandment and loving one another should be the focus. Satan rather have everyone run around in fear and most people will not examine the scriptures to see what is real and what is not.


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 7, 2009)

blazingthru said:


> If people continue to do as they please and dont' love God, yes they will burn in the lake of fire that will be created for that purpose according to what each person has done and its not forever its until you die. Until you turn to dust in this case ash. So what do you do, you don't trust in your ideals your feelings you trust in the word of God and lean on all of his words. you put your life (and be wiling to give it up for God that reward is greater then anything you can ever imagine) in jesus hands and follow him. until you pass from this life. don't look back whats back there could never ever had made you happy anyway.
> 
> The Bible says the penalty for sin is “death" (Romans 6:23), and "destruction" (Job 21:30). The wicked "shall perish" (Psalm 37:20), "burn" up (Malachi 4:1), "be destroyed together" (Psalm 37:38), "shall be cut off" (Psalm 37:9), and "shall be slain" (Psalm 62:3). These references and many more make it clear that the wicked die and are destroyed.
> 
> The Bible does say that the wicked will receive their just rewards—some greater than others—based on their works (Revelation 22:12; Matthew 16:27; Luke 12:47, 48). But they do not live forever in misery.


 

Perhaps I'm not understanding what you are saying, but believing that Christ died and went to hell and emerged victorious over death and hell is foundational to Christianity.

So where are dead sinful people right now?


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## BeautifulFlower (Apr 7, 2009)

The bat creature story didnt sound to right to me. You can not unleash Satan through a hole in the ground and him saying I have conquered. That wouldnt be biblical correct as Jesus has defeated him. This is the first Ive heard of hell being in the center of the earth. I want to research what other theologians think.


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 7, 2009)

This about sums up what I believe to be true:

Most references to Hades do not indicate torment. Jesus was in Hades according to Peter, (Acts 2:31). The only time Jesus mentioned torment in Hades was in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, (Luke 16:19-31). Lazarus was carried by the angels to Abraham's side where he was comforted while the Rich Man was in torment in Hades. However, this is a parable, so we can't build doctrine on the details of the parable, only the main point that believers will be comforted after death while the unrepentant will be punished. 
Hades is only a temporary place for the dead until they are judged in the final judgment, (Revelation 20:11-15). At that time, the sea, death, and Hades will give up the dead for judgment. "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:14). Therefore, when Jesus spoke of Gehenna with its continuous fire in Mark 9, he must have been referring to the lake of fire, not to Hades. 
After the final judgment, there will be "a new heaven and a new earth", (Revelation 21:1). The Apostle John "saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God." (Revelation 21:2). John "heard a loud voice from the throne saying, 'Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.'" (Revelation 21:3). This passage plainly teaches that God's dwelling place will change from heaven to the earth. It is further confirmed by a following passage. "The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it." (Revelation 21:23-26). 
God has prepared this wonderful dwelling place for mankind. God has promised, "He who overcomes8 will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son." (Revelation 21:7) "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city." (Revelation 22:14)

http://www.rodsgarden.50megs.com/wheredie.htm


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## BeautifulFlower (Apr 7, 2009)

Is hell a place of fire or a place of complete darkness? 

I see alot of references in the bible about outer darkness but nothing about fire? I know the God uses fire for a number of events.


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## BeautifulFlower (Apr 7, 2009)

Why would they be surprised that it was that hot in the earth's core when volcanic lava (comes from the earth's core) has been reported to have temperatures hotter than that?


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 7, 2009)

prettyfaceANB said:


> Why would they be surprised that it was that hot in the earth's core when volcanic lava (comes from the earth's core) has been reported to have temperatures hotter than that?


 
The new article says the whole thing was made up.  I don't know if this is true but I believe it probably is.  It appears no one did any fact checking before it was put on television as true.


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## blazingthru (Apr 7, 2009)

EbonyHairedPrincess said:


> Perhaps I'm not understanding what you are saying, but believing that Christ died and went to hell and emerged victorious over death and hell is foundational to Christianity.
> 
> So where are dead sinful people right now?


 
I have to answer you question in two parts as I am at work and extremely busy but I wanted to take a brake.  sinful people are dead. thats all dead no one is in hell.  No one. The devil is not in hell ruling anything he is out making war with the people and encouraging people to be more evil then ever he is also out to get anyone who is even thinking about turning to christ. I have to answer the rest when I get home.


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## momi (Apr 7, 2009)

EbonyHairedPrincess said:


> this morning. I'm not sure what I think about this. I found a video on line talking about it. I have never head of this before. Sorry if this has been posted before.
> 
> http://www.tangle.com/view_video.php?viewkey=505c33a5007bc38d456c
> 
> At first I laughed then I thought about it and decided to look it up. Has anyone got more info on this?


 
Edited-------------------


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 7, 2009)

blazingthru said:


> I have to answer you question in two parts as I am at work and extremely busy but I wanted to take a brake. sinful people are dead. thats all dead no one is in hell. No one. The devil is not in hell ruling anything he is out making war with the people and encouraging people to be more evil then ever he is also out to get anyone who is even thinking about turning to christ. I have to answer the rest when I get home.


 
I agree that sinful people are spiritually dead. (Ephesians 2:1 - 4) And you were dead in the trespasses and sins *2 *in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— *3 *among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 

I also agree that we should:  Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. (1 Peter 5:8)

I don't agree that sinners who died are "sleeping" in their graves awaiting judgement.  Ultimately people are going to perish in the lake of fire because of sin, which we both agree on.


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## BeautifulFlower (Apr 7, 2009)

I am thinking long and hard on this one. But Blazingthru has soon truth in her statement. Read this chapter:

*Revelation 20 (New International Version)

Revelation 20
The Thousand Years* 
 1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time. 
 4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

*Satan's Doom *
 7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

*The Dead Are Judged *
 11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 7, 2009)

Pretty dun went and got the Bible! That's what I'm talking about.  Okay let me read a little.  I might have to answer a little later when I get home.  Where is Shimmie?


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## BeautifulFlower (Apr 7, 2009)

EbonyHairedPrincess said:


> Pretty dun went and got the Bible! That's what I'm talking about. Okay let me read a little. I might have to answer a little later when I get home. *Where is Shimmie*?


 
I know right. And PinkPebbles and pebbles and Nice & Wavy....


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 7, 2009)

prettyfaceANB said:


> I know right. And PinkPebbles and pebbles and Nice & Wavy....


 
For real!  Look all I know it that there is hell or hades and there is a place called gehenna.  Hell/hades is a holding place for the sinner until the judgement comes.  After the judgement if your name is not found in the book of life off to gehenna/lake of fire you go.


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## blazingthru (Apr 7, 2009)

if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment 2 Peter 2:9

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, *in which all that are in the graves *shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28, 29.
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12. Here He reminds us that "every man"-every person-will receive his just reward when Christ returns to this earth. Job declares "that the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction. They shall be brought forth to the day of wrath." Daniel wrote that they which "sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Daniel 12:2. 
Location of Hell 

     The Bible clearly asserts that this fire devours the wicked right here on "the breadth of the earth." Every Bible writer who speaks on the subject of hell adds new insight on this second death of the wicked. Peter states: "But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." 2 Peter 3:7. Then he goes on to describe the day of the Lord which will melt the very elements with fervent heat.
     The language of Peter is very explicit about the place of punishment for the un- godly. He says this earth is reserved for that fire which will bring judgment and perdition to the wicked. Their punishment will be in this earth. Isaiah declared, "For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion. And the streams thereof shall be turned into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch." Isaiah 34:8, 9.
     The prophet portrays the entire planet enveloped in the destroying fire. Even the streams and dust are transformed into an exploding combustion of pitch and brimstone. Isaiah says this is God's vengeance and "recompense" at the end of the controversy.
     David adds to the testimony with these words, "Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire, and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Psalm 11:6. Notice that he uses almost the same words as John and Peter in describing the fate of the wicked. All agree as to the place of the punishment (the earth) and the agent of punishment (fire).
     This brings us to the third great fact about the subject of hell. Hell as a place of punishment will be this earth turned into a lake of fire at the Day of Judgment. But this also raises some other very interesting questions about the fate of the lost. One of the most intriguing and puzzling has to do with the length of punishment. How long will the wicked continue to live and suffer in that fire?
     No one can answer that question precisely because the Bible says they will be punished according to their works. This means there will be degrees of punishment. Some will suffer longer than others. But one thing we can say with certainty-the wicked won't live in that fire throughout eternity.


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## blazingthru (Apr 7, 2009)

EbonyHairedPrincess said:


> Perhaps I'm not understanding what you are saying, but believing that Christ died and went to hell and emerged victorious over death and hell is foundational to Christianity.
> 
> Where in the bible does it say *Christ died and went to hell*.  I read that in the catholic bible but no other and I have many many bibles.


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## blazingthru (Apr 7, 2009)

EbonyHairedPrincess said:


> For real! Look all I know it that there is hell or hades and there is a place called gehenna. Hell/hades is a holding place for the sinner until the judgement comes. After the judgement if your name is not found in the book of life off to gehenna/lake of fire you go.


 

Where does it say this in the bible? this holding place?

Hell will be the earth.  The earth is where satan will be bound for 1,000.00 years alone, the earth will be dark and desolate and empty and there will be no one for the devil to tempt. No human will be alive, all that are saved will be in heaven. Those who died unsaved by choice will still be in the grave awaiting judgement. those who are saved will be in heaven helping decide their fate. yeah can you believe it its all true.  Okay this is not my opinion this is all in the word of God. I was shocked to learn all this myself. In fact I just learned all this stuff within the last few months.


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## divya (Apr 7, 2009)

Good thread.  I agree with BlazingThru on this matter.

Hell here is the grave. It is not a place that is burning now or that burns forever. As Blazing has explained, the lake of fire is not yet in existence. John 5:28, 29/ Daniel 12:2. Further, _forever_ in the Scriptures often has a different meaning than what we understand it to mean today. It often means until the end of an event. For an example, we can look at the story of Jonah. He describes the length of time as _forever_,  but the Scriptures state that he was in the belly of the whale 3 days and 3 nights. Another example is Sodom and Gomorrah, where the Bible states that the cities suffered eternal fire. Jude 1:7.  But we know that the cities are not still burning today. The Bible means that they simply burning until all was consumed. 2 Peter 2:6 confirms this by stating that Sodom and Gomorrah were reduced to ashes. It's the same concept with the lake of fire that will consume the wicked. The lake of fire that is supposed to burn forever, just means burning until everything is gone.

The Hebrew and Greek are really helpful here.


*Rev. 20:14 *_And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death._

The translation for hell here is _the grave_. So when all is said and done death and grave will be eternally destroyed. There will be no more of either. That's why in Rev. 21, the Scriptures go on to say...

*Rev. 21:1-4 *_And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away._


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## divya (Apr 7, 2009)

EbonyHairedPrincess said:


> Perhaps I'm not understanding what you are saying, but believing that Christ died and went to hell and emerged victorious over death and hell is foundational to Christianity.
> 
> So where are dead sinful people right now?



*Acts 2:31 *_He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in *hell*, neither his flesh did see corruption._

The translation for hell here is the "grave/the place (state) of the departed souls." 

For your reference, I am using the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, with Complete and Updated Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries. Christ gained the victory over death and the grave. See below...

*
I Cor 15:55* - _O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? _

In this verse, the term _grave_ is given the same reference as _hell_ in Acts 2. The grave is just as defined - the grave/the place (state) of the departed souls.


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## Shimmie (Apr 7, 2009)

blazingthru said:


> I don't believe that hell is created or that there is such place in existence today. Hell is another word for the grave. The lake of fire will be created after the 1,000.00 years have passed.
> 
> This is just the devil trying to scare people. When this should not be the focused having a relationship with God and obeying his commandment and loving one another should be the focus.
> 
> Satan rather have everyone run around in fear and most people will not examine the scriptures to see what is real and what is not.


 
I agree with you Blazingthru about the Lake of Fire after the 1000 year milenium.   But hell is still current and quite active and full of occupants. 

Actually satan would rather have people NOT fear him and have them running around with the false doctrine that there is no hell in existance. It gives people free licence to sin without fear of consequence.  

Luke 16 is clear about hell being in existance.  The story of the poor beggar named Lazarus (not the same one that Jesus raised from the dead).   There was a rich man who cared not for the poor such as Lazarus, who ate the crumbs which fell from the table.  

Both of these men died.   Lazarus went to what is known as the Bosom of Abraham (Paradise ... ie. Heaven).   The rich man went to hell.  While there, in hell the rich man was in torment.  He looked up and cried unto Abraham,  "Please send Larzarus to but wet my tongue with water from his finger".   Abraham told him it wasn't feasible to do so; for there was a great gulf fixed between the two places; that neither could go to the other.  There was a great divide which kept them separated.  

The rich man cried, "Can you then at least send Lazarus to warn my brothers of this torment."   Again, his request was refused, for they had 'Moses and the Prophets' (the word of God) to warn them of the impending doom of hell for those who missed Heaven.  

Jesus also went to hell for us, when he gave up the ghost on the Cross; as it was part of our redemption.  He went to hell so that we wouldn't have to.   Jesus Paid it All... Hell, Death and the Grave.  

Hell is real and hell is now, very much now.   Folks think they have an escape clause, however if it's not Jesus, they're going to hell for sure.

I will say this, whatever those folks heard, it wasn't hell below.    Hell is not in nor under the ground, below.   The word of God also makes it plain that hell is up in the atmosphere, but at a level below Heaven.  Ephesians 5 - Rulers of darkness, the Prince of the air; God made his enemy his footstool.   

There's more, but this is just a start. 

You have a strong stance in the Lord and I'm very encouraged by you.  So, Ms Lady, keep Blazingthru.  Keep giving the devil a migraine.  Your light is blinding him.


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## Almaz (Apr 7, 2009)

14.4 Kilometers is only 31.68 miles Coal, and gold miners sometimes are that deep or close to it. 

Just saying


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## sunnysmyler (Apr 7, 2009)

I'll just quickly add.....I love the books of Revelation and Daniel. I actually love reading about the angels, the seraphims, the 24 elders and all that!!! I get so excited in reading about the New Jerusalem......and I say this to myself...." It will be worth it all, every heartache, every pain, every purification process The Lord took me through, It will be worth it all"!!!!! HALLEUJAH!!!!!


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## Crown (Apr 7, 2009)

Ecclesiaste 9 : 10Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, *in the grave, *whither thou goest.

Psalms 6 : 5For in death there is no remembrance of thee:* in the grave *who shall give thee thanks?

Psalm 16:  10For thou wilt not leave* my soul in hell; *neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Mat.12: 40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; *so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth*.

    Acts 2 : 20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: 
22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 
  29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch *David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day*. 
   30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 
   31*He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, **that his soul was not left in hell*, neither his flesh did see corruption.


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## Shimmie (Apr 7, 2009)

Almaz said:


> 14.4 Kilometers is only 31.68 miles Coal, and gold miners sometimes are that deep or close to it.
> 
> Just saying


 
Maybe they were hearing 'echos' of previous activity.  It's possible.  The caves do hold sounds....


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## Shimmie (Apr 7, 2009)

Crown said:


> Ecclesiaste 9 : 10Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, *in the grave, *whither thou goest.
> 
> Psalms 6 : 5For in death there is no remembrance of thee:* in the grave *who shall give thee thanks?
> 
> ...


Yes!  

Thank you for posting the scriptures.  

Not that I'm glad about hell...   I didn't have a chance to post them.


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## msa (Apr 7, 2009)

this is very very interesting...

I never thought to search out the Hebrew/Greek for the scriptures about hell, and y'all know how much I love my Hebrew translations.


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## BeautifulFlower (Apr 7, 2009)

blazingthru said:


> Where does it say this in the bible? this holding place?
> 
> Hell will be the earth. *The earth is where satan will be bound for 1,000.00 years alone*, the earth will be dark and desolate and empty and there will be no one for the devil to tempt. *No human will be alive, all that are saved will be in heaven*. Those who died unsaved by choice will still be in the grave awaiting judgement. those who are saved will be in heaven helping decide their fate. yeah can you believe it its all true. Okay this is not my opinion this is all in the word of God. I was shocked to learn all this myself. In fact I just learned all this stuff within the last few months.


 
I am just learning about this so bear with me.... 

My first question is where does it say Satan will be bound on earth? Is earth the Abyss? Second, where does it say no one will be alive on earth because the below scripture says Satan will be bound so that he can not deceive for a thousand years? Who can he deceive if everyone is dead?

Revelation 20 
1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.


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## blazingthru (Apr 8, 2009)

prettyfaceANB said:


> I am just learning about this so bear with me....
> 
> My first question is where does it say Satan will be bound on earth? Is earth the Abyss? Second, where does it say no one will be alive on earth because the below scripture says Satan will be bound so that he can not deceive for a thousand years? Who can he deceive if everyone is dead?
> 
> ...


 I do not wish to be a stumbling block against anyone.  *Hell is the grave*, It is not a place of torment as of this moment.  the entire earth will be a grave.  People that died and come back and tell you stories about Hell, its not true, They didn't die, they were clincially dead but their breath of life did not go to God yet, Trust if it did it would not have come back, unless the good lord decided to make it happen. an any case, they knew nothing because there is no dreaming in death.  Nothing happens when you die.  When Jesus comes again. He will bring all those who love him and has obeyed his commandments and loved one another to him. those that are alive and remain will all die. Right then and there. they will lie on the ground where they are, no one will mourn them no one will bury them. they will lie where they are until they are just scattered bones and satan will be here unable to torment anyone. When the 1,000.00 years are up. the dead will arise and Satan will be released to go and decieved them again for the last and final battle.  Hell is just the grave nothing more then that.  The earth is the Abyss yes it is. which will be the lake of fire,  Satan will be bound here so that he can not go to and forth visiting any where else in the world we have no ideal what God has created above whats in the word of God, our minds are limited we can't even imagine other worlds that might exist. Not talking aliens either that come and visit earth.  But scriptures are important so I will provide scriptures to you later today. I am getting ready to go to work and wanted to have a quite time and decided to come in here before leaving.


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 8, 2009)

Crown said:


> Ecclesiaste 9 : 10Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, *in the grave, *whither thou goest.
> 
> Psalms 6 : 5For in death there is no remembrance of thee:* in the grave *who shall give thee thanks?
> 
> ...




Thank you for posting these.


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 8, 2009)

blazingthru said:


> I do not wish to be a stumbling block against anyone. *Hell is the grave*, It is not a place of torment as of this moment. the entire earth will be a grave. People that died and come back and tell you stories about Hell, its not true, They didn't die, they were clincially dead but their breath of life did not go to God yet, Trust if it did it would not have come back, unless the good lord decided to make it happen. an any case, they knew nothing because there is no dreaming in death. Nothing happens when you die. When Jesus comes again. He will bring all those who love him and has obeyed his commandments and loved one another to him. those that are alive and remain will all die. Right then and there. they will lie on the ground where they are, no one will mourn them no one will bury them. they will lie where they are until they are just scattered bones and satan will be here unable to torment anyone. When the 1,000.00 years are up. the dead will arise and Satan will be released to go and decieved them again for the last and final battle. Hell is just the grave nothing more then that. The earth is the Abyss yes it is. which will be the lake of fire, Satan will be bound here so that he can not go to and forth visiting any where else in the world we have no ideal what God has created above whats in the word of God, our minds are limited we can't even imagine other worlds that might exist. Not talking aliens either that come and visit earth. But scriptures are important so I will provide scriptures to you later today. I am getting ready to go to work and wanted to have a quite time and decided to come in here before leaving.


 

I've seen these beliefs before and it boils down to the translation of the word hell for hebrew and greek and all the other languages the bible has been translated from.  Yes some scripture use the word hell in reference to death but other scriptures use the same word as "hell" holding place for sinners until judgement.


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## blazingthru (Apr 8, 2009)

If we let the Bible mean what it says, there can be no doubt on this point. *The wicked are "reserved" until when? Until the "day of judgment." *To be what? "To be punished"! This means they cannot be punished before that judgment day. Does the Bible tell where they are reserved until then? Christ Himself said, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28, 29.


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## blazingthru (Apr 8, 2009)

How plain! *Jesus said that both good and bad will come forth from their graves *to receive either life or damnation. This proves that from the time of death until they come forth in the resurrection they are not receiving any *recompense or punishment*. It all happens after they come forth. They are reserved until that day just as Peter indicated, but Christ spelled out where they will be reserved-"in the graves." Luke 14:14


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## blazingthru (Apr 8, 2009)

Revelation 20:5. "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." Here, the rest of the dead, or the wicked, are said to remain in their graves till the close of the thousand years. Then they will come forth in the second resurrection.


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## blazingthru (Apr 8, 2009)

Revelation 20:5. But what of the living wicked? They shall be destroyed by the "brightness of His coming." 2 Thessalonians 2:8. They will pray for the rocks and the mountains to fall on them to hide them from the presence of Jesus. Sin cannot exist in His presence, therefore sinners will be struck down when He appears. The prophet Jeremiah says of this time, "*And the slain of the Lord *shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end." Jeremiah 25:33. Then he adds this significant comment, "they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried. . ." Why will they not be lamented or buried? For the simple reason, my friends, that there is no one left upon the face of the whole earth. The righteous are all in heaven with Jesus, the wicked dead remain in their graves, and the wicked who are slain must lie where they fell. The earth has been emptied of all its inhabitants.


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## blazingthru (Apr 8, 2009)

Jeremiah's picture of it. "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void: and the heaven and they had no light. I beheld, the mountains, and lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and lo, *there was no man*, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof *were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by His fierce anger*." Jeremiah 4:23-26. At the coming of Jesus there was a great earthquake which caused cities to crumble. At the "presence of the Lord," man's strongest institutions turn into rubble and ruin.


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 8, 2009)

blazingthru said:


> Jeremiah's picture of it. "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void: and the heaven and they had no light. I beheld, the mountains, and lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and lo, *there was no man*, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof *were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by His fierce anger*." Jeremiah 4:23-26. At the coming of Jesus there was a great earthquake which caused cities to crumble. At the "presence of the Lord," man's strongest institutions turn into rubble and ruin.


 
Blazing I am not going to get any work done reading all these scriptures   .


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## Shimmie (Apr 8, 2009)

EbonyHairedPrincess said:


> Blazing I am not going to get any work done reading all these scriptures  .


 


I guess I won't post mine then.   

Be it Heaven or hell, everyone have a wonderful and blessed Heavenly day.   :blowkiss:


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## MeccaMedinah (Apr 8, 2009)

Almaz said:


> 14.4 Kilometers is only 31.68 miles Coal, and gold miners sometimes are that deep or close to it.
> 
> Just saying


 
This is how I knew it was a complete lie. He said 'some 14 kilometers' knowing most Americans won't bother to convert the measurement. 
*14.4 Kilometers = 8.94774517 Miles*


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## Shimmie (Apr 8, 2009)

blazingthru said:


> I do not wish to be a stumbling block against anyone.


We don't see you as a stumbling block....


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## blazingthru (Apr 8, 2009)

prettyfaceANB said:


> I am just learning about this so bear with me....
> 
> My first question is where does it say Satan will be bound on earth? Is earth the Abyss?
> 
> ...


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## Crown (Apr 8, 2009)

blazingthru said:


> Where does it say this in the bible? this holding place?
> 
> Hell will be the earth.  The earth is where satan will be bound for 1,000.00 years alone, the earth will be dark and desolate and empty and there will be no one for the devil to tempt. *No human will be alive, all that are saved will be in heaven.* Those who died unsaved by choice will still be in the grave awaiting judgement. those who are saved will be in heaven helping decide their fate. yeah can you believe it its all true.  Okay this is not my opinion this is all in the word of God. I was shocked to learn all this myself. In fact I just learned all this stuff within the last few months.



Studying, but not so sure about this!
Jer. 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; *yet will I not make a full end*.
Zec. 12:3 *And in that day* will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, *though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it*.
12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and *he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David*; and the house of David _shall be_ as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. 
12:9 *And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.* 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: *and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced*, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for _his_ only _son,_ and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for _his_ firstborn. 
13:1 *In that day* there shall be *a fountain opened* to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem *for sin and for uncleanness*. 
13:8 And it shall come to pass, _that_ *in all the land*, saith the LORD, *two parts* therein shall be *cut off and die*; *but the third shall be left therein*. 13:9 *And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God. *
 Mat. 5:5 Blessed _are_ the meek: for *they shall inherit the earth*.
 Rev. 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and *we shall reign on the earth.*
Rev. 20:6 Blessed and holy _is_ he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and *shall reign with him a thousand years. *
 Rev. 2:25 But that which ye have _already_ hold fast till I come. 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him *will I give power over the nations*: 2:27 *And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: *even as I received of my Father.
Rev. 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and *my reward is with me*, to give every man according as his work shall be. 
Psalm 2:8
*Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 
2:9Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel. *
Luke 19:12 He said therefore, *A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return*.
19:15 And it came to pass, *that when he was returned, having received the kingdom*, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
19:17 And he said unto him, Well, thou *good servant*: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, *have thou authority over ten cities*. 
19:19 And he said likewise to him, *Be thou also over five cities*.


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## divya (Apr 8, 2009)

Crown said:


> Studying, but not so sure about this!
> Jer. 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; *yet will I not make a full end*.
> Zec. 12:3 *And in that day* will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, *though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it*.
> 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and *he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David*; and the house of David _shall be_ as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
> ...



Good verses. It's all about timing. For example, the meek definitely will inherit the earth. However, that will happen after the 1000 year period and after the wicked are destroyed. Rev 21:1 _And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. _ 

I think these verses may help...



> Revelation 20:4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; _and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years._



So here we realize that all the righteous will be in heaven with Christ for the 1000 years. BUT at the same time...



blazingthru said:


> Revelation 20:5. _"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."_



The dead are not alive during the 1000 years. Not until the 1000 years are over will they be allowed to live again, and ultimately will be destroyed. After their destruction, we move into Rev 21 where the Bible shows us the new heaven and earth...

There's so much more with the verses you've posted. This is a great study! But alas, homework calls. Be back!


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## divya (Apr 8, 2009)

EbonyHairedPrincess said:


> I've seen these beliefs before and it boils down to the translation of the word hell for hebrew and greek and all the other languages the bible has been translated from.  Yes some scripture use the word hell in reference to death but other scriptures use the same word as "hell" holding place for sinners until judgement.



Well, the grave (hell) is in a sense, a holding place until judgment for the wicked or until the second coming for those who die in Christ... Many times in the Scriptures, the Bible refers to death as a _sleep_. One example of this is where Jesus spoke about Lazarus: 

*John 11:11-14* _These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, *Our friend Lazarus sleepeth*; but I go, that I may awake him out of *sleep*. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. *Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.*_

Here Jesus refers to death as a _sleep_. We get a great picture of what happens to us when we die (sleep) in Christ and what will happen when Jesus comes etc. When Jesus returns the dead in Christ will rise first and those who are alive will be "caught up" with them in the air. 

*1 Thess 4:16 -17* _For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: *and the dead in Christ shall rise first:Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:* and so shall we ever be with the Lord._ 

So now we understand, that like Lazarus, those who died in Christ will remain in the grave until Jesus comes. However, those wicked who are living at the time of the Second Coming will die due to the awesomeness of Christ's coming. 

*2 Thess 2:8* _And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:_

So now we see that the grave (hell) will be the holding place for all the wicked until judgment - until the final destruction of the wicked. Those wicked who were already dead before Christ's coming remain in the grave and those who are wicked and living at the time of Christ's coming will die due to His brightness. So all the wicked will die. 

Then the Bible tell us how long they will be dead, and when they will be allowed to live again. 

*Rev 20:5*_But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. _

The Bible makes sure to tell us that after the 1000 years, that is the first time that the wicked are allowed to live again.  They are not resurrected before that. They are not already in any burning place. They are in the grave (hell). 

After they are resurrected, the final destruction will occur. 

*Rev. 20:13-15* _And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire._

Notice the Bible says that "death and hell" delivered up the dead which were in them. It would not make sense if death and "burning fire" delivered up the dead for judgment. When you look at the Greek, it translates to "death and the grave" delivered up the dead for judgment. That makes sense because the wicked were dead and in the grave (hell). So they were resurrected out of the grave for the final judgment. Then death and the grave are cast into the lake of fire. That is the second death. Ultimately, the wicked are destroyed. as are death and the grave (hell). That means that finally God does away with it all. No more dying. No more grave...so more burying our loved ones.  So then we move into Rev. 21...

*Rev. 21:4* _And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away._

Ok now I'm going to do my homework. The Bible is just so much more interesting!


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 8, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> We don't see you as a stumbling block....


 

Exactly!  Iron sharpens iron.  If we don't "challenge" each other in our beliefs we don't grow.


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## BeautifulFlower (Apr 8, 2009)

Would it be completely satanic for me to wonder if God has created another race of people and world and bible at another point before he created Earth for this race of people?

Curious to know your thoughts...

I just wonder about things like that because I am fascinated with life outside of earth and the spirit realm. Its a healthy interest, I dont mess with stuff God speaks against.


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## Shimmie (Apr 8, 2009)

prettyfaceANB said:


> Would it be completely satanic for me to wonder if God has created another race of people and world and bible at another point before he created Earth for this race of people?
> 
> Curious to know your thoughts...
> 
> I just wonder about things like that because I am fascinated with life outside of earth and the spirit realm. Its a healthy interest, I dont mess with stuff God speaks against.


That's an excellent question, because I've wondered that too.  When I was in college and took earth science classes, there were a lot of questions regarding life on other planets, or pre-existing life on earth, long before ours.   

I think your question is quite healthy.   My answer is quite vain though, in respect that God did away with the others just to make me.     

Welllllllllllllllllll, He did.  

And you too,  and Pebbles, and Nice & Wavy, and Foxy Scholar, and msa, and Mselle, and blazingthru, and EbonyhairedPrincess, and Divya, and Crown, and MeccaMedinah, and momi, and Almaz, and sunnysmyler, and me again, and..................... err' body.   

Well He did.   Afterall, we're the only ones, here on earth, that Jesus died for....


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## blazingthru (Apr 8, 2009)

prettyfaceANB said:


> Would it be completely satanic for me to wonder if God has created another race of people and world and bible at another point before he created Earth for this race of people?
> 
> Curious to know your thoughts...
> 
> I just wonder about things like that because I am fascinated with life outside of earth and the spirit realm. Its a healthy interest, I dont mess with stuff God speaks against.


 

 I am going to comment because I am not sure its sinful or even beneficial to think on those things. I don't think on those things. I have this scripture below of things we should be thinking on.  I am not sure being concerned or even curious about other worlds and the spirit realm is helpful to you. I am sure you can ask God whatever questions you could possilble have about this world and any other worlds he might have created when you meet him but  right now We need all our focused to be on our relationship with the Lord and helping those around us as well-- as the time is drawing near and near to God be the glory
*Philippians 4:*


 4 Always be full of joy in the Lord. I say it again—rejoice! 5 Let everyone see that you are considerate in all you do. Remember, the Lord is coming soon. 

 6 Don’t worry about anything; instead, pray about everything. Tell God what you need, and thank him for all he has done. 7 Then you will experience God’s peace, which exceeds anything we can understand. His peace will guard your hearts and minds as you live in Christ Jesus.  8 And now, dear brothers and sisters, one final thing. *Fix your thoughts on what is true,* *and honorable, and right, and pure, and lovely, and admirable. *Think about things that are excellent and worthy of praise. 9 Keep putting into practice all you learned and received from me—everything you heard from me and saw me doing. Then the God of peace will be with you.


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## Nice & Wavy (Apr 8, 2009)

blazingthru said:


> I am going to comment because I am not sure its sinful or even beneficial to think on those things. I don't think on those things. I have this scripture below of things we should be thinking on. I am not sure being concerned or even curious about other worlds and the spirit realm is helpful to you. I am sure you can ask God whatever questions you could possilble have about this world and any other worlds he might have created when you meet him but right now We need all our focused to be on our relationship with the Lord and helping those around us as well-- as the time is drawing near and near to God be the glory
> *Philippians 4:*
> 
> 
> ...


 
Would you be able to share which bible translation you are sharing with your scriptures?

Thanks so much.


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## divya (Apr 8, 2009)

prettyfaceANB said:


> Would it be completely satanic for me to wonder if God has created another race of people and world and bible at another point before he created Earth for this race of people?
> 
> Curious to know your thoughts...
> 
> I just wonder about things like that because I am fascinated with life outside of earth and the spirit realm. Its a healthy interest, I dont mess with stuff God speaks against.



Absolutely not! 

I believe that we just don't have access to other worlds because humanity fell into sin. When we get to heaven, there will be so much more we will experience!

Here are some verses that indicate other life...

*Job 2:1* - _Again there was a day when *the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD*, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD._

*Rev 12:12* - _*Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them.* Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. _


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## Ramya (Apr 8, 2009)

EbonyHairedPrincess said:


> Blazing I am not going to get any work done reading all these scriptures   .



Ok! lol. I'm going to have to print this thread and read it later.


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## BeautifulFlower (Apr 8, 2009)

But arent we supposed to be familiar with the spiritual as to be prepared for spiritual warfare?

I always believed you can fight what you can not see but you can not fight what you do not know...


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## Ramya (Apr 8, 2009)

prettyfaceANB said:


> But arent we supposed to be familiar with the spiritual as to be prepared for spiritual warfare?
> 
> I always believed you can fight what you can not see but you can not fight what you do not know...



Depends on where you are learning about this. There are books... some biblical and some not. I really believe that God gives us revelation concerning the 'unseen' part of spiritual warfare. And some have the gift of sight and can just see. When dealing with things that you are ignorant about it is best to search God's word and hear His voice before seeking outside material. 

We all have the most powerful weapon available to us and that's Jesus. Speak His name and the war is already won.


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## blazingthru (Apr 8, 2009)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Would you be able to share which bible translation you are sharing with your scriptures?
> 
> Thanks so much.


 Oh I go to biblegateway. the new living transalation but that was because that was the one that was up at the time.  but I mostly stay with the NKJV


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## Renewed1 (Apr 8, 2009)

subscribing....Question:  Because of this holding place that everyone is speaking about.....is this where the catholics (no offense to catholics) believe the whole purgatory theory?


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## Hairsofab (Apr 8, 2009)

Sorry to but in this thread. I'm not christian and don't visit this forum usually.  **deleted** Anyway, this "Recording of hell" that Art Bell played on his program has been completely debunked as a hoax a long time ago and I'm surprised the urban legend of it is still going around. In fact, someone found the audio that the person mixed to create the recording. Just an fyi. *Backs out of thread slowly*


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 9, 2009)

Changed said:


> subscribing....Question: Because of this holding place that everyone is speaking about.....is this where the catholics (no offense to catholics) believe the whole purgatory theory?


 
I know this is going to be a little controversial but:

I see so much I need to study on before I can answer, but this one I know the answer to right off because I did the catholic among many others for some time.  Purgatory is a Catholic theory which you know.   This belief says that if you have sinned really bad your spirit can enter into purgatory in order to be sufficently cleansed and then enter into heaven.  Knowing Catholics probably for a fee (just kidding, kinda  ).

The problem with this is all sins can be forgiven except one:

Matthew 12:31-32 
Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. 

Everything else is fair game for redemption so we don't need purgatory? 

1 John 1:9
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".


I have yet to find scriptures supporting a persong getting a second chance *after you die* to get cleaned.  That must be done prior to death.  

Yes some sins have worse consequences than others:

http://kevinmaples.blogspot.com/2007/09/is-all-sin-same-sermon-obadiah-115-18.html


and yes, you will have to pay for *every* sin you commit:

Colossians 3:25
But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.


The opportunity to be restored comes *before* death.

With that being said I need to get to work.  See ya .


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## Shimmie (Apr 9, 2009)

Bosinse said:


> Sorry to but in this thread. I'm not christian and don't visit this forum usually. **deleted** Anyway, this "Recording of hell" that Art Bell played on his program has been completely debunked as a hoax a long time ago and I'm surprised the urban legend of it is still going around. In fact, someone found the audio that the person mixed to create the recording. Just an fyi. *Backs out of thread slowly*


Thanks Bosinse,     and   

Anyone can pretty much see or guess that it's not real.    

As for urban legend, once something hits the Internet, it never dies.


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## Nice & Wavy (Apr 9, 2009)

I know this thread is getting long, but I found something that I'd thought I would share for ALL who are reading this thread:

********************

Life after death--really! 

 Today, as perhaps never before, because of our materialistic society and humanistic philosophies, the concept of a continued existence after death is being doubted.  Even among religious people, this trend is growing.  More than one religious group teaches that, at least under certain circumstances, the grave is the end.  More and more people are coming to consider the belief in an "afterlife" as just so much "pie-in-the-sky" nonsense.

    But what does God say about the matter?  Surely, if the grave is the end of man, God could express that clearly to us in His Word, the Bible.  And just as surely, if there in fact *is* something more after death, that too could be unmistakably taught in the Scriptures.

    The Old Testament character, Job, asked the very question we're considering:  He asked, "If a man die, shall he live again?" (Job 14:14).  That question the Bible answers very confidently indeed!  Jesus said, while on this Earth, "He that believeth on Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live" (John 11:25).  This was spoken at the tomb of His close friend Lazarus, as words of comfort to Lazarus' sister Martha.  Concerning that statement and others like it, the apostle John said, "This is the promise that He hath promised us, even eternal life" (I John 2:25).  And Martha expressed her own confidence in life after death with these words concerning her brother: "I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day" (John 11:24).

    But by far the most graphic picture of existence beyond the grave, for both the good and the bad, is presented in the account of the evil rich man and another Lazarus, a righteous beggar. This account is commonly called a "parable" and dismissed as such, but wrongly so: There is much evidence that this is an account of an actual happening to two very real people that lived and died upon this Earth. Even so, a story in the Scriptures that is very obviously a parable, still doesn’t teach anything untrue. Although only hypothetical situations, each parable depicts an event that could easily have happened and contains only the truth. So the account of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16, be it parable or actual happening, nevertheless must be reckoned with by all honest students of the Bible.

    The account begins in Luke 16:19 and records the condition of these two men in this life: the one evil; the other a good, righteous man. Verses 22-23 then inform us that "the beggar (Lazarus) died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; and in Hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom." Both of these men were obviously very much alive following their physical deaths, and reaping the results of their actions while living on Earth. Meanwhile, life on Earth was continuing on, as shown by the rich man’s request that his five brothers still on Earth be warned in order that they might avoid that place of torment after death (vv. 27-28).

    It is a dangerous thing to miss the truth about life after death–for it takes preparation in this life, to ensure receiving that place of comfort in the next. The unpleasant truth is that lack of preparation here (not living by God’s will) results only in that place of torment there. Satan is thrilled by those insisting that the grave is the end, for he knows that such ones can only help him in his work of deceiving and capturing souls for an eternity of Hell.

    Do you find the idea of an eternal existence after death an unlikely, fantastic thing? Then Jesus speaks to *you* when He says to doubters, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:28-29).

    Think on these things!


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## Nice & Wavy (Apr 9, 2009)

*It could be in Heaven...* 

 The concept of Heaven as a reward for faithful living here on Earth is one of the strongest motivations in the Bible for being a Christian. Perhaps it is no small wonder, then, that the forces of Satan leave no stone unturned in their attempts to deny the very existence of such a place. And so some say, "We just create our own Heaven or Hell in this life"; or, as one religious cult teaches, "Only 144,000 will enter Heaven itself", and that number is all filled up already! Everyone else, they say, will have to be satisfied with a "reconstituted Earth". Many others, while not going to this extreme, make similar efforts to convince some that "This life is all there is--you may as well enjoy it, for it’s all the reward you’ll have."

    But is the Bible really clear on the subject? Does it truly teach the literal existence of a place called Heaven as an eternal home for the faithful? Let’s look into God’s word and see:

    First, the existence of a reward of some kind for God’s faithful after this life is described in the Scriptures too often to deny or ignore: Let’s start with Revelation 14:13 "Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord". Jesus explained *why* that is true when He promised not long before His death on the cross, "In My Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself: that where I am, there ye may be also" (John 14:2-3). He also assured His followers "There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God’s sake, who shall not receive manifold more in the present time, and in the World to come life everlasting" (Luke 18:29-30). "Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life" (Revelation 2:10). Then we see the apostle Paul affirming his confidence in that promise when he said, speaking of his own imminent death, "I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness which the Lord, the righteous Judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love His appearing" (II Timothy 4:6-8).

    But, where are we to live out that reward? The Bible does not give a geographical location–you can’t find it on a map, because Heaven is a spiritual place, not physical. But we know it is not here on Earth, past, present, or future, "reconstituted" or otherwise: Peter said in that last day "The Heavens shall pass a way with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat; the Earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up" (II Peter 3:10).

    We, if we are faithful Christians, will be where *God* is after we die–for in describing that place of reward, the Bible says among other things that we shall "see God’s face" (Revelation 22:4). Read chapters 21 and 22 of the book of Revelation for a complete description of that dwelling-place of God, and the dwelling-place of all faithful followers of His after this life.

    Blessed indeed are all those that "die in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13). These promises are ours, and all the forces of Hell Satan can muster cannot take them away from us. Let the Bible’s promise of Heaven motivate you to live this life in harmony with the will of Christ revealed by the New Testament, so that you can, at *your *death, go home to be with God for an eternity of happiness. You have God’s word on it!


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## Nice & Wavy (Apr 9, 2009)

*...or it could be in Hell: *

    What about that place called "Hell"? Does it really exist, or is it just a story made up by preachers to scare people into church? In this age of "Positive Thinking" and warnings of the consequences of being too negative, the concept of "Hell" is unpopular indeed among virtually everyone.

    Yet our Lord devoted much of His teaching time to discussing just such a place. Heaven and Hell are invariably mentioned together.  The two ideas, that of reward on the one hand and punishment on the other, are so closely linked that they stand or fall together. If you accept the existence of Heaven, you must also accept that there is a Hell–for in the Bible the same expressions are used to describe both .

    Jesus spoke of the last-day general resurrection as a resurrection into life for some, but a resurrection into damnation for others (John 5:28-29). In His picture of the Judgment scene in Matthew 25, He spoke in terms of "the sheep and the goats" (v. 32); those on His right hand and those on His left (v. 33); those who will "inherit the kingdom prepared for them (v. 34) and those who will "depart into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (v. 41). Plain language for what some consider to be an imaginary place! Again, Jesus spoke of the danger of going into a Hell described as "the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:43-48). And in the midst of that beautiful description of Heaven in Revelation 21, the apostle John interrupts himself to remind us that "the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Revelation 21:8).

 *Perhaps most graphic is the remarkable account in Luke 16 of two men, one evil and one righteous, who both died about the same time. The same dualism, or contrast, is seen here: The one went to a place of comfort called "Abraham’s bosom" (Luke 16:22); while the other found himself "in Hell" (v. 23) in a condition which was described as "being in torments". This shows us, among other things, that Hell is not "just the grave" as some try to say, for there is consciousness there: The man himself said "I am in torment in this flame" (v. 24) and begged for relief and mercy–a request that was denied him, showing that Hell is also both permanent and eternal*.

    Why such a horrible description in God’s word? If you said "To scare you into Heaven", you’d not be far wrong! God said to the Israelites of old, long ago, "I have set before you life, and death; blessing, and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live" (Deuteronomy 30:19). God presents a very similar choice to us today: That picture of Hell in the Scriptures is meant as a warning, that we may avoid going there--God "is not willing that any should perish" (II Peter 3:9), but He would "have all men to be saved" (I Timothy 2:4). God never prepared Hell for man; instead, it was prepared "for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41). But God won’t force Himself on anyone! He has given man the power of choice, and if a man chooses to follow Satan to that Hell of torment, God will allow him to do so. And so God has said, in effect, to us today: "I have set before thee Heaven, and Hell: therefore choose Heaven, that ye may live." 

    Don’t let your fear of Hell lead you to deny that it exists; rather, let it–as God intended–motivate you to seek out the road to Heaven. "Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men" (II Corinthians 5:11).

    Think about it!


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 9, 2009)

I don't mind long threads especially when they are juicy.  Hold up.......let me go turn the printer on  .


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## Nice & Wavy (Apr 9, 2009)

EbonyHairedPrincess said:


> I don't mind long threads especially when they are juicy. Hold up.......let me go turn the printer on  .




I absolutely LOVE your siggy!!!


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## divya (Apr 9, 2009)

Nice & Wavy said:


> *...or it could be in Hell: *
> 
> What about that place called "Hell"? Does it really exist, or is it just a story made up by preachers to scare people into church? In this age of "Positive Thinking" and warnings of the consequences of being too negative, the concept of "Hell" is unpopular indeed among virtually everyone.
> 
> ...



Interesting analysis, but this is also parable. Sometimes parables aren't to be taken completely literally. But even so, the problem with the analysis in bold is that the Greek translation for hell in the verse is still the _grave_...

*
Using a Parable to Make a Point*
Ángel Manuel Rodríguez

_Does the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) suggest that we are not totally unconscious when we die?_

Perhaps the basic question is whether this story is a parable or a historical narrative. If it is historical, then Jesus is describing what really happened to the rich man and Lazarus after they died. If it is a parable, we need to look at its purpose.

     1._ A Historical Event? _A reading of the passage indicates that it is not describing a literal event that took place in the afterlife. If it was historical, a literal reading would be required; yet a literal interpretation reveals some serious problems.

     First, there is no explicit reference to the soul or the spirit of Lazarus or the rich man. Those who believe that the story describes conditions during the intermediate state between death and resurrection also teach that the soul or the spirit survives after death, but not the body. But a literal reading of the text clearly indicates that they were in "hell" (Greek, hades) in bodily form. Jesus mentioned the rich man's tongue, Lazarus's finger, and verbal communication. Their eyes enabled them to see each other. That language and imagery indicate that we are not dealing here with disembodied spirits.

     Second, the place of rest for the saved is not God's presence but Abraham's bosom, a place of felicity in Jewish literature; obviously not a literal place. The phrase was used among Jews to refer to the high privilege of sitting at the right hand of Abraham.

     Third, the parable suggests that the righteous and the wicked coexist close to each other. If the righteous were able to see the pain and suffering of the wicked, that would not lend itself to a universal state of peace and rest.

     Fourth, the term hades (hell) is not used anywhere else in the New Testament as a place of eternal torment, but simply as the tomb or realm of the dead. Therefore a literal interpretation of the story would contradict what the Bible teaches elsewhere on that topic.

     Fifth, a literal interpretation also contradicts the biblical teaching that rewards are given after the second coming of Christ, and not immediately after a person dies (Matt. 25:31, 32; Rev.22:12).

     2. _A Parable? _It is likely that Jesus was not discussing the condition of the dead during the intermediate state, but simply telling a parable. This parable, like all parables, has one of several purposes. The text itself reveals two main purposes. The first one provides comfort to the oppressed followers of Christ: The time is coming when their fortune will be reversed; the wicked will be humiliated and the righteous will be exalted by God.

     The second, and possibly the most important element in the parable, teaches that our decisions in this life become irrevocable after we die. There is no such thing as, a purgatory. We must listen to "Moses and the Prophets" while we are alive. Scripture is enough to enlighten us concerning God's eternal purpose for us.

     3. _Why Did Jesus Choose This Parable?_ Jesus told this story as a vehicle to teach His hearers animportant lesson; it is merely an illustration.

     But why would He use a story with such bad theology? In a sense, what He did here was similar to what He did with the parable of the unrighteous servant (Luke 16:1-10). There Jesus was not teaching that the dishonest administration of money is right; He was emphasizing the importance of placing our resources at the service of others and of God.

*In the parable of the rich man, Jesus was retelling a story well known by His audience. The background of this parable was a folk story going back to Egyptian sources. In the Jewish version a contrast was made between the experience of a poor scholar and a rich publican. In a dream a friend of the poor scholar saw him enjoying heavenly bliss in a paradisiacal garden with streams of water, while the rich man was standing by a stream unable to drink from the water.*

     Jesus told this fictional story and dramatized it in order to make His discourse more relevant to His audience. His point: We only have this life to choose our eternal destiny.


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## divya (Apr 9, 2009)

Also, the belief that hell is a place of neverending torment contrasts the Scriptures in many basic ways:

*Rev. 21:4-5 *_And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. _

How can God wipe away all tears etc. if people in heaven can look down upon all the wicked and see their torment? 

_________________________________

*John 3:16*  - _For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that *whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.*_

The Scriptures say that those who believe in Jesus will have everlasting life. If in fact, the wicked suffer in some neverending place called hell, then that means that they have everlasting life too! And that's not what the Bible says! *Only the righteous have everlasting life! *

So just these simple verses show us that we may need to dig a little deeper and look at the translation of hell to make sure that we understand what hell really is. The Greek translation of hell is _the grave_. And the verses support the message in the following verses: 

*John 5:28 - 29.*"Marvel not at this: *for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth;* they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."[/I]

Those of us who die in Christ remain in the grave until Christ comes, and then He will give us our reward - immortality! See these verses...

*1 Thess 4:16 -17* _For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, *and with the trump of God:and the dead in Christ shall rise first:*Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord_

*I Cor 15:52 -54 *_In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, *at the last trump*: *for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.* For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. _

_____________________________________

The wicked will remain in the grave (hell) and receive their judgment after the 1000 years.

*Rev 20:5 *- _But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. _

*Rev. 20:13-15 *_And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire._


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## blazingthru (Apr 9, 2009)

Also scripture backs up scripture over and over again.  In order to just go by this one parable you need many more scriptures. The bible repeats over and over that when you die you know nothing, you feel nothing. Ecclesiates 12:7 Then the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.  James 2:26 The body without the spirit is dead Job 27:3  the spirit of God is in my nostrils( your breath)  John 5:28, 29 All who are in the graves will hear his voice and come forth Acts 2:29, 34  David ........is both dead and buried in his tomb is with us to this day.  For David did not ascend into the heavens.  People do not go either to heaven or to "hell" (which in some words means the grave or a firey pit or judgement, at death. They go to their graves to await the resurrection day. 

How much does one know or comprehend after death? 
Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10
5 For the living know that they will die, 
       but the dead know nothing; 
       they have no further reward, 
       and even the memory of them is forgotten. 

 6 Their love, their hate 
       and their jealousy have long since vanished; 
       never again will they have a part 
       in anything that happens under the sun. 

10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.


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## Crown (Apr 9, 2009)

Don't forget, *GOD is Eternal and HE is living in ETERNITY*.

But for *us* :

Ecclesiaste 9 : 10Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is* no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, **in the grave, whither thou goest.*

Psalms 6 : 5 For *in death *there is *no remembrance *of thee:* in the grave who shall give thee thanks?*

1Thes. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive _and_ remain unto the coming of the Lord *shall not prevent them which are asleep.* 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: *and the dead in Christ shall rise first*:

 *Rev 20:5 *- *But the rest of the dead lived not again* until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 

 *Rev. 20:13-15 *And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; *and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.* And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

*No need of a resurrection if death is not dead.
No need of a judgment if death is already fire.*


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## BeautifulFlower (Apr 9, 2009)

But I thought whatever is spiritual is eternal? Meaning spirit beings live on forever and forever in consciousness?


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## divya (Apr 9, 2009)

prettyfaceANB said:


> But I thought whatever is spiritual is eternal? Meaning spirit beings live on forever and forever in consciousness?



Jesus will reward the righteous eternal life when He comes back for us, at the Second Coming. 

*John 3:16* - _For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that *whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.*_

Here's a good question to ask... If people had inner "spirits" that live on forever and ever, then what would be the need for Jesus' promise of everlasting life to those who believe? The Bible states that the dead know nothing (Eccl 9:5), so there cannot be these spirit beings that last forever in consciousness.  If in fact, the wicked suffer in some neverending place called hell, then they have everlasting life (though not a good one). We know that cannot be true. The Scriptures state that everlasting life is a gift from God, bestowed upon those of us who seek Him when He comes for us. 

*Romans 6:23 *- _ For the wages of sin is *death*, but the *gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord*. _

Note that the Bible does not say that the wages of sin is life in hellfire forever, it says that the wages of sin is death. The result for those who reject God is death eternally. They will perish. Just as important, the verse states that the gift of God is eternal life. That is the reward for the righteous which the Bible states will be given to us when Jesus returns. 

Truthfully, the idea of spirit/soul that live on forever and forever in consciousness has roots in Platonian thought. Plato, Athenagoras, and Tertullian were influential in the rise of the theory. Tertullian largely pushed the theory within Christianity. But even before Greek thought, the ideas can be found such as within Egyptian beliefs, for example.

A little about Tertillian...

http://www.tertullian.org/tertullianistae/de_haeresibus.htm


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 9, 2009)

Crown said:


> Don't forget, GOD is Eternal and HE is living in ETERNITY.
> 
> But for us :
> 
> ...


 
There it is.  I gotta read my Stronges to make sure this is the right one.  Be back later.


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 9, 2009)

prettyfaceANB said:


> But I thought whatever is spiritual is eternal? Meaning spirit beings live on forever and forever in consciousness?


 
Pretty, you are deep today  .  I can't wait to see how someone answers this one.


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## divya (Apr 9, 2009)

EbonyHairedPrincess said:


> Pretty, you are deep today  .  I can't wait to see how someone answers this one.



See post #84.


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 9, 2009)

divya said:


> See post #84.


 
I'm going, I'm going.  You are on it aren't you  .


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## divya (Apr 9, 2009)

EbonyHairedPrincess said:


> I'm going, I'm going.  You are on it aren't you  .



 

Sorry! This is just so much better than homework!


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## Nice & Wavy (Apr 9, 2009)

So, then...according to you, Jesus' words in the bible concerning the rich man and Lazarus should NOT be taken literally because it was a parable?  Now, that's an interesting analysis.

Jesus spoke the truth...he didn't have to make up a story. If He did, then most of everything else He said may have been made up too.  He told us the account for a reason...not for it to be JUST A PARABLE.

I don't know about everyone else, but I believe what the bible says....the whole bible, not just bits and pieces.  It was important for Jesus to tell the story and many others, and so its just as important enough for me to believe it because HE SAID IT!

I don't need to throw a whole bunch of scriptures around to get my point across....but, what I know to be true is this:  Jesus' words are the truth and everything else is a lie!

What is important for ME is to help people come to salvation through Jesus Christ...with His Word being the final authority...and I work very hard to do my part to make that happen...each and everyday.  It's a pleasure and an honor to see people give their lives to Christ by asking Jesus to come into their heart!

A changed life, a life saved from spiritual death....that's what it's all about!

Be blessed, everyone.



divya said:


> Interesting analysis, but this is also parable. Sometimes parables aren't to be taken completely literally. But even so, the problem with the analysis in bold is that the Greek translation for hell in the verse is still the _grave_...
> 
> 
> *Using a Parable to Make a Point*
> ...


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## divya (Apr 9, 2009)

Maybe we should start a thread about the purpose of parables...because there seem to be different ideas.



Nice & Wavy said:


> So, then...according to you, Jesus' words in the bible concerning the rich man and Lazarus should NOT be taken literally because it was a parable?  Now, that's an interesting analysis.
> 
> Jesus spoke the truth...he didn't have to make up a story. If He did, then most of everything else He said may have been made up too.  He told us the account for a reason...not for it to be JUST A PARABLE.
> 
> ...



Regardless, my point is that it is extremely important to understand the background of the parables. It's just like the symbolism in Revelation that means something deeper than the surface read. Take for instance, the parable of the Ten Virgins. There is a deeper meaning to the story. So please do not misconstrue my words or substitute any words because my post did not say that Jesus' words are _just_ anything. No one stated that Jesus made up anything. Symbolism is used a number of times in the Bible.  

I believe in the entire Bible and believe in sola scriptura. What is highly important however is the context and background of the Word. 

Also, this has nothing to do with "throwing around a bunch of Scriptures to get my point across." The Bible says to *search the Scriptures*! We are given the Bible so that we may learn of Jesus and His purpose for us. He reveals so much through the word! 

Bless.


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## BeautifulFlower (Apr 10, 2009)

With everything that has been said I think we will can agree on one thing...

The unrepentent will live apart from God. 

Now however you believe final judgement or life (immediately) after death occurs know this...

Make sure you're not on the losing team!


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## divya (Apr 10, 2009)

prettyfaceANB said:


> With everything that has been said I think we will can agree on one thing...
> 
> The unrepentent will live apart from God.
> 
> ...



And even if you believe that Christ is coming with His reward (Rev. 22:12), when you die then it is over. When you awaken, you will meet your reward - whether live eternally in heaven or the second death in the lake of fire. So believe on the Lord. Love Him and keep His commandments!


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 13, 2009)

divya said:


> Maybe we should start a thread about the purpose of parables...because there seem to be different ideas.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I was going to let this thread go to thread heaven but after thinking about it.  I can't think of a single parable that wasn't a literal example with a purpose filled message.

The pearl, the lamp, the brides are all literal examples and purpose filled messages to believers.


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## BeautifulFlower (Apr 13, 2009)

I looked up the world hell, gehenna, and grave. I would a link between gehenna and hell but not hell and grave or gehenna and grave. 

I also asked my mother who has read the Bible 4 times through and reads the bible on a regular basis. She said hell exist today. I asked to you agree based on what you've read that Earth will become hell. She said no. Hell is everlasting and this earth will pass way so they can not the same thing. 



EbonyHairedPrincess said:


> I was going to let this thread go to thread heaven but after thinking about it. I can't think of a single parable that wasn't a literal example with a purpose filled message.
> 
> The pearl, the lamp, the brides are all literal examples and purpose filled messages to believers.


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 13, 2009)

^^^ This is end time prophecy stuff which I don't know well.  Are you saying the Earth and Heaven will be completely distroyed?  This is what I read: 

2 Peter 10 - 14.


A New Heaven and Earth
*10* But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 
*11* Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
*12* looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 
*13* But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. 

*Isaiah 65:17*


*17* For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. *18* But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.


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## Nice & Wavy (Apr 13, 2009)

divya said:


> Maybe we should start a thread about the purpose of parables...because there seem to be different ideas.There are different ideas because there are different beliefs, apparently.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry that it took me so long to get back to this post...my computer at home is busted, so I had to wait to come to work to answer.

@ the bolded....I did not misconstrue your words...I simply answered your post according to how I read it.

I want you to know that I understand the scriptures and I do study to show myself approved unto God, a workman not ashamed...rightly dividing the word of truth.  As I said before, I don't need to constantly throw scriptures around to get my point across....I say what I need to say and sometimes it doesn't always include scripture.  

I totally understand what parables are as well.  Jesus didn't use the parables to just fill in the blanks...there was a reason for them, and I take it literally...if He spoke to us about hell...he meant it and that means there is a hell.  You may not agree with that, but it doesn't mean that its not true.  I also understand about symbolism in scripture as well.

The whole point here is that your SDA beliefs is fine, but it doesn't mean that those of us who are not SDA are going to agree with it. (I was once SDA, so I know what those beliefs are)

I'm not going to continue on this any longer...there really isn't a need to.  You don't believe in hell and I do...its just as simple as that.

Have a great day, divya.


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 13, 2009)

*Revelation Chapter 20:*​*Satan Bound 1000 Years* 
*Satan Bound; the Thousand-Year Reign; Final Judgment*​*1*Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. *2*He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is _the_ Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; *3*and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.​*The Saints Reign with Christ 1000 Years*​*4*And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then _I saw_ the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received _his_ mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a F116 thousand years. *5*But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This _is_ the first resurrection. *6*Blessed and holy _is_ he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.​*Satanic Rebellion Crushed* 
(_cf. Ezek. 38; 39_)​*7*Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison *8*and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number _is_ as the sand of the sea. *9*They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. *10*The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where F117 the beast and the false prophet _are._ And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.​*The Great White Throne Judgment*​*11*Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. *12*And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, F118 and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is _the Book_ of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. *13*The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hadems delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. *14*Then Death and Hadems were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. F119 *15*And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.​


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 13, 2009)

Here is the Matthew Henry Commentary for this chapter from   www.SearchGodsWord.com .  My bible is a Matthew Henry Commentary Bible and I am familiar with it, this is the only reason I chose this one.


http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/mhc-com/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=20&verse=14#Re20_14


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## BeautifulFlower (Apr 13, 2009)

EbonyHairedPrincess said:


> ^^^ This is end time prophecy stuff which I don't know well. Are you saying the Earth and Heaven will be completely distroyed? This is what I read:
> 
> 2 Peter 10 - 14.
> 
> ...


 
Yes, and to supplement that...

*Revelation 21*

*All Things Made New*

 1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John,[a] saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God _is_ with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them _and be_ their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me,[b] “Write, for these words are true and faithful.” 
6 And He said to me, “It is done![c] I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,[d] and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving,[e] abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” 
*The New Jerusalem*


9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me[f] and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.”[g] 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy[h] Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light _was_ like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are _the names_ of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west. 
14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names[i] of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he who talked with me had a gold reed to measure the city, its gates, and its wall. 16 The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal. 17 Then he measured its wall: one hundred _and_ forty-four cubits, _according_ to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel. 18 The construction of its wall was _of_ jasper; and the city _was_ pure gold, like clear glass. 19 The foundations of the wall of the city _were_ adorned with all kinds of precious stones: the first foundation _was_ jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth sardonyx, the sixth sardius, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. 21 The twelve gates _were_ twelve pearls: each individual gate was of one pearl. And the street of the city _was_ pure gold, like transparent glass. 
*The Glory of the New Jerusalem*


22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it,[j] for the glory[k] of God illuminated it. The Lamb _is_ its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved[l] shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.[m] 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.[n] 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes[o] an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 13, 2009)

I get so excited when I read about things to come.  The book of Revelations puts everything right back into prospective.  It makes me remember the trivial mess I deal with ain't nothing.


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## Nice & Wavy (Apr 13, 2009)

EbonyHairedPrincess said:


> I get so excited when I read about things to come. The book of Revelations puts everything right back into prospective. *It makes me remember the trivial mess I deal with ain't nothing*.


ITA with you!


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## divya (Apr 13, 2009)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Sorry that it took me so long to get back to this post...my computer at home is busted, so I had to wait to come to work to answer.
> 
> @ the bolded....I did not misconstrue your words...I simply answered your post according to how I read it.
> 
> ...



No problem. Hope your computer gets fixed.  

Unfortunately, my words and beliefs are still being misconstrued. If in fact you were once SDA, it is honestly a bit strange that you claim that we don't believe in hell. Let me clarify for all - that claim is false. My statements show that in regards to the state of the dead, I do believe in hell as it is put forth in the Scriptures, particularly from studying the Greek terms and definitions. So in actuality, SDAs do believe in hell. Further, such beliefs also are not limited to SDAs but are shared by other non-mainstream Christians who have studied the state of the dead. 

I absolutely do agree that parables have a purpose. However, just like the state of dead, I do believe often we must look deeper into the verses and search and compare verses to ensure we have the correct meaning and complete view. So yes, the Scriptures are what I will use in order to explain these things. It's fine that we do not agree but great to discuss the varying viewpoints. Hopefully you do understand, because your reaction does seem a bit threatened by other interpretations of the Scriptures. Relying on Scriptures for all understanding is not throwing them around. *It is His Word, given to us to learn all about Him and His loving purpose for us. *

God bless you!


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## Nice & Wavy (Apr 13, 2009)

divya said:


> No problem. Hope your computer gets fixed.
> 
> Unfortunately, my words and beliefs are still being misconstrued. If in fact you were once SDA, it is honestly a bit strange that you claim that we don't believe in hell. Let me clarify for all - that claim is false. My statements show that in regards to the state of the dead, I do believe in hell as it is put forth in the Scriptures, particularly from studying the Greek terms and definitions. So in actuality, SDAs do believe in hell. Further, such beliefs also are not limited to SDAs but are shared by other non-mainstream Christians who have studied the state of the dead.
> 
> ...


I didn't react, I responded. I'm not threatened by scripture at all.

God bless you too!


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## divya (Apr 13, 2009)

Nice & Wavy said:


> I didn't react, I responded. I'm not threatened by scripture at all.
> 
> God bless you too!



Ok, happy to hear!


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## ChasingBliss (Apr 13, 2009)

I definitely should have checked this forum first before posting yesterday's thread


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## blazingthru (Apr 13, 2009)

Why would anyone want to go to heaven if they can see their family members being tormented forever. I could not love a God that torments people forever and ever and ever. Its way to much to bear. I dont believe in my heart and soul or with any fiber in my being that God would do that to any living creature that he has created and loved to torment them forever in hell and we can see this as in the parapable there is a wall and they can see and speak to each other.  Can a drop of water really quench your thirst for real?  Can it? So I can talk to a family member that had died and was not saved, whom I loved, when? while I am in heaven. Just from not reading the bible I can see this makes no sense that there is a deeper meaning then this. what can it mean there has to be more then this since you never go back on your word and you have said that when we die we know nothing or aware of nothing and that eternal life is a gift we recieved only if we loved you and obeyed your commandments. I believed you want me to really examine the scriptures and remember your words.  That at the end of this world every knee shall bow and confess that you are Lord.  That the world with all its sinners will face Judgment and punishment will be given then and no other time. I in my simpleness know that your words are true and I can trust in you. That when judgement has been set and this world has burned up that the new heaven and new earth will be created and god will live among us.


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## divya (Apr 13, 2009)

blazingthru said:


> Why would anyone want to go to heaven if they can see their family members being tormented forever. I could not love a God that torments people forever and ever and ever. Its way to much to bear. I dont believe in my heart and soul or with any fiber in my being that God would do that to any living creature that he has created and loved to torment them forever in hell and we can see this as in the parapable there is a wall and they can see and speak to each other.  Can a drop of water really quench your thirst for real?  Can it? So I can talk to a family member that had died and was not saved, whom I loved, when? while I am in heaven. Just from not reading the bible I can see this makes no sense that there is a deeper meaning then this. what can it mean there has to be more then this since you never go back on your word and you have said that when we die we know nothing or aware of nothing and that eternal life is a gift we recieved only if we loved you and obeyed your commandments. I believed you want me to really examine the scriptures and remember your words.  That at the end of this world every knee shall bow and confess that you are Lord.  That the world with all its sinners will face Judgment and punishment will be given then and no other time. I in my simpleness know that your words are true and I can trust in you. That when judgement has been set and this world has burned up that the new heaven and new earth will be created and god will live among us.



This brought tears to my eyes. I am so grateful for God's love for us!


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 13, 2009)

blazingthru said:


> *Why would anyone want to go to heaven if they can see their family members being tormented forever. I could not love a God that torments people forever and ever and ever. Its way to much to bear.* I dont believe in my heart and soul or with any fiber in my being that God would do that to any living creature that he has created and loved to torment them forever in hell and we can see this as in the parapable there is a wall and they can see and speak to each other. Can a drop of water really quench your thirst for real? Can it? So I can talk to a family member that had died and was not saved, whom I loved, when? while I am in heaven. Just from not reading the bible I can see this makes no sense that there is a deeper meaning then this. what can it mean there has to be more then this since you never go back on your word and you have said that when we die we know nothing or aware of nothing and that eternal life is a gift we recieved only if we loved you and obeyed your commandments. I believed you want me to really examine the scriptures and remember your words. That at the end of this world every knee shall bow and confess that you are Lord. That the world with all its sinners will face Judgment and punishment will be given then and no other time. I in my simpleness know that your words are true and I can trust in you. That when judgement has been set and this world has burned up that the new heaven and new earth will be created and god will live among us.


 
This stops being about what we think, feel and understand and becomes what God wants.  If the bible is telling you he will give you a peace that passes all understanding that is what you will get.  If he tells you he will wipe away every tear from your eye that is what will happen.


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## divya (Apr 13, 2009)

EbonyHairedPrincess said:


> This stops being about what we think, feel and understand and becomes *what God wants.*  If the bible is telling you he will give you a peace that passes all understanding that is what you will get.  *If he tells you he will wipe away every tear from your eye that is what will happen.*



And that's exactly why I'm sure that no one will be burning endlessly...

Rev. 20:4 -_ And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be *no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain*: for the former things are passed away._

I'm so glad that God doesn't want that, not even for the wicked! He is so loving, so good!


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 13, 2009)

divya said:


> And that's exactly why I'm sure that no one will be burning endlessly...
> 
> Rev. 20:4 -_ And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be *no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain*: for the former things are passed away._
> 
> I'm so glad that God doesn't want that, not even for the wicked! He is so loving, so good!


 
I'm not seeing the connection.  Where are the scriptures to support this.  I see where the Word says He will throw death and hell into the lake of fire.  I see where the Word says the unrepentant sinner will also be cast into the lake of fire but where does it say only for a little while?


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## BeautifulFlower (Apr 13, 2009)

I have to disagree completely with you on this one. 

Everyone will have to account for their own individual decisions. It doesnt really matter what we think is right or wrong or how we think God should run the universe. If I was God, I'd accept everything but I am not God and there's a good reason for that. And because I am creation and not Creator, I have no right to question my Creator. 

*Isaiah 55:8-9*
8 “ For My thoughts _are_ not your thoughts, 
      Nor _are_ your ways My ways,” says the LORD. 
       9 “ For _as_ the heavens are higher than the earth, 
      So are My ways higher than your ways, 
      And My thoughts than your thoughts. 

Heaven is for the saints and the repentant (those written in the Lamb's Book of Life). If God decides to give the unrepentant another chance, we do not know that in this lifetime because he doesnt tell us that in the Good Book.  

What you think is important now will no longer be important in heaven. In heaven we will be all one body. There will be no marriages and we will be like the angels (Mark 12:25). 

It may be unfair but it is the God we serve that makes these laws, not us. 







blazingthru said:


> Why would anyone want to go to heaven if they can see their family members being tormented forever. I could not love a God that torments people forever and ever and ever. Its way to much to bear. I dont believe in my heart and soul or with any fiber in my being that God would do that to any living creature that he has created and loved to torment them forever in hell and we can see this as in the parapable there is a wall and they can see and speak to each other. Can a drop of water really quench your thirst for real? Can it? So I can talk to a family member that had died and was not saved, whom I loved, when? while I am in heaven. Just from not reading the bible I can see this makes no sense that there is a deeper meaning then this. what can it mean there has to be more then this since you never go back on your word and you have said that when we die we know nothing or aware of nothing and that eternal life is a gift we recieved only if we loved you and obeyed your commandments. I believed you want me to really examine the scriptures and remember your words. That at the end of this world every knee shall bow and confess that you are Lord. That the world with all its sinners will face Judgment and punishment will be given then and no other time. I in my simpleness know that your words are true and I can trust in you. That when judgement has been set and this world has burned up that the new heaven and new earth will be created and god will live among us.


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## Shimmie (Apr 13, 2009)

blazingthru said:


> *Why would anyone want to go to heaven if they can see their family members being tormented forever. I could not love a God that torments people forever and ever and ever. Its way to much to bear. *
> 
> *I dont believe in my heart and soul or with any fiber in my being that God would do that to any living creature that he has created and loved to torment them forever in hell and we can see this as in the parapable there is a wall and they can see and speak to each other. *
> 
> ...


Oh Dear.... 

This what has Carlton Pearson messed up and now he's teaching the fallacy that hell does not exist.   

I didn't want to 'see' this at first in this thread, but it's here; the denial of hell which truly does exist and truly people do go there and truly the example in Luke 16 is exactly what hell is like.....utter torment. 

Jesus gave us that example for a reason.  An illustration of two men who made two separate choices and the consequences of each.   One of them messed up and it wasn't God.  

People have to realize that there is still a consequence.   There is a place of destruction for satan and all of his cohorts and they will be destroyed along with all of those who have 'chosen' to follow him.

Heaven is and always will be a 'Perfect Place'.   A place of no wars, hatred, killing, sickness, diseases, homosexuality, adultery, fornication, witchcraft, idolatry, theft, lying, wounded souls, and the list goes on and on.   AND we 'choose'.  People choose Heaven or hell by their lifestyles they choose to live. 

There has to be a place where those who have renounced God and his love for them, to go.  They can't float endlessly in the heavens, without a place to land.   That's not the way God intended.   

In order for Heaven to be the Heaven that it is, then there can be no entry for those who will come in and wreck havock.   That wicked spirit of their character cannot enter the Heavenly gates.   Otherwise we may as well stay right here with hell on earth.    What's the point of having a Heaven?  None! 

As for family, friends, loved ones.   The parable in Luke 16 says it all, when the rich man asked Abraham if he could send Lazarus to warn his brothers of the torment *in hell *to follow.    The reply which is the truth.... his brothers, have the same as everyone else, a "Choice".   The word of God is right there with them, and it speaks as plain as day what happens when those chose not to serve God.    They can have Life or death, Blessing or cursing.......God said, "I'll make it easy for you, "Choose Life"!

People send themselves to hell, not God   They have choices.   Like it or not, believe it or not, that's the way it is.  

Don't get mad at God and say, I can't possibly love a God who would send someone to hell and be tormented, torment His creation, etc.    God didn't do it, 'THEY' did it.   He gave each of us the same measure of mercy and truth and 'Fire Insurance'.   While some trust in demons, I trust in God...by choice.

Fire Proof! 

It's sad and it's one of the reasons I feel so sorry for gays.  Here they are fighting for rights of benefits, upon earth, which number one they do not qualify for, and the saddest of all, earthen rights which won't save their souls.  It's terribly sad for they've chosen the wrong battle which is not going to get them into Heaven.  And they're just digging the hole even deeper.     

Hell is real and people who choose it are going to reside in it.  It's just that plain and simple.    Those who deny there's a hell to go to, are simply giving themselves an excuse to continue the life they've chosen to live, without God.    

Choose Life.   

That's all one has to do to avoid hell and torment, wailing and snashing of teeth.     

Choose Life.  

Hell is real, Jesus is Life, Everlasting.  

Praise Him!


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## BeautifulFlower (Apr 13, 2009)

It doesnt. 

The Scriptures are clear...

*Revelation 20*

*Satan Bound 1000 Years*

 1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is _the_ Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for *a little while.*

*And then...*

*10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.*


*And then...*

*14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[d] 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.*




EbonyHairedPrincess said:


> I'm not seeing the connection. Where are the scriptures to support this. I see where the Word says He will throw death and hell into the lake of fire. I see where the Word says the unrepentant sinner will also be cast into the lake of fire but where does it say only for a little while?


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## divya (Apr 13, 2009)

EbonyHairedPrincess said:


> I'm not seeing the connection.  Where are the scriptures to support this.  I see where the Word says He will throw death and hell into the lake of fire.  I see where the Word says the unrepentant sinner will also be cast into the lake of fire but where does it say only for a little while?



In my very first post, I touched on how the words "for ever" are used in the Scriptures. There are some Scriptures mentioned there that are helpful. http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showpost.php?p=7514721&postcount=34

Here's another one...

Malachi 4:1-2 - _For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and *all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.*
But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall._

For much better clarification: 
http://www.thetruthabouthell.net/
http://www.helltruth.com/q-a/forever-and-ever.aspx

A few other verses mention in the explanation:

*Psalm 37:9-11* _*For evildoers shall be cut off*: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.  10For yet a little while, and *the wicked shall not be*: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. _

*Psalm 68:2* -_ As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God._


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## divya (Apr 13, 2009)

*The issue is that the words "for ever" in the Bible are NOT always used the same way we understand it today. Just like the Greek translation for hell is 54 times "grave" in the Bible. *

The Bible says that Sodom and Gomorrah burned _eternally/forever_? But we know that it is not still burning. Jude 1:7/Peter 2:6

The Bible says that Jonah was in the belly of the whale _forever_? But we know that he came out after 3 days and nights because the Bible tells us that.

*The same concept goes for the lake of fire/hellfire because of the verses posted.*

*Malachi 4:1-2* - For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly,* shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.*
But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

*Psalm 37:9-11 *For evildoers shall be *cut off*: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. 10For yet a little while, and *the wicked shall not be*: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

*Psalm 68:2* - As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: *as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.*

*The wicked will be destroyed. They will be no more.*


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## BeautifulFlower (Apr 13, 2009)

How can you assume this means something other than eternity?

*Rev 20:10 "....And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."*

It doesnt say for ever...or just forever...but day and night...forever and ever.


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## divya (Apr 13, 2009)

prettyfaceANB said:


> How can you assume this means something other than eternity?
> 
> *Rev 20:10 "....And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."*
> 
> It doesnt say for ever...or just forever...but day and night...forever and ever.



Again, The Bible said that Jonah was in the belly of the whale for ever *Jonah 2:6*, but then it says that he was in the whale 3 days and 3 days. 

The Bible says that Sodom and Gomorrah suffered *ETERNAL FIRE*. Jude 1:7. Can we see it still burning? 

It's not an assumption at all. It's from reading numerous verses and studying Biblical language.

*
What do you understand eternal and forever to mean in those verses?*


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## BeautifulFlower (Apr 13, 2009)

divya said:


> Again, The Bible said that Jonah was in the belly of the whale for ever *Jonah 2:6*, but then it says that he was in the whale 3 days and 3 days.
> 
> The Bible says that Sodom and Gomorrah suffered *ETERNAL FIRE*. Jude 1:7. Can we see it still burning?
> 
> ...


 
Just because its not physically burning doesnt mean they are spiritually burning. 

Eternal means eternal. My little human mind cannot even grasp the concept but I know its a long time. 

I'd like to see a scripture that says the unrepentent will not stay in the lake of fire forever.

Thing is...I have noticed you say this means this and that means that but when I do the research myself I do not pull up these meanings at all. So I wonder where youre getting these meanings from.


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## divya (Apr 13, 2009)

prettyfaceANB said:


> Just because its not physically burning doesnt mean they are spiritually burning.
> 
> Eternal means eternal. My little human mind cannot even grasp the concept but I know its a long time.
> 
> ...



That's what I'm asking.  What do you understand eternal fire and forever in the below verses to mean?

Where the Bible said that Jonah was in the belly of the whale for ever Jonah 2:6, but then it says that he was in the whale 3 days and 3 days.

Where the Bible says that Sodom and Gomorrah suffered ETERNAL FIRE. Jude 1:7. Can we see it still burning? 

Do you take it to mean your understanding? How do you know it doesn't have the same meaning as the verses above?

If forever means forever as you are arguing, do you then believe that Jonah is still in the belly of the whale?


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 13, 2009)

^^^  I took the time to look up the scripture and I am a little disturbed.  Jonah was in the midst of a prayer (pity party) when her used the term forever.  There is no way you can confuse the definitions.  One term is being used by a man who is lamenting over his self inflicted plight the other was instructed to write down _most_ of the secret thing of the Most Holy that he was shown in a vision by God.  The use of the word in the two different context leave absolutely no room for confusion:  



*1*Then Jonah prayed to the LORD his God from the fish's belly. *2*And he said: 
"I cried out to the LORD because of my affliction, 
And He answered me. 
"Out of the belly of Sheoml I cried, 
_And_ You heard my voice. 
3For You cast me into the deep, 
Into the heart of the seas, 
And the floods surrounded me; 
All Your billows and Your waves passed over me. 
4Then I said, "I have been cast out of Your sight; 
Yet I will look again toward Your holy temple.' 
5The waters surrounded me, _even_ to my soul; 
The deep closed around me; 
Weeds were wrapped around my head. 
*6**I went down to the moorings of the mountains; *
*The earth with its bars closed behind me forever; *
*Yet You have brought up my life from the pit, *
*O LORD, my God. *
7"When my soul fainted within me, 
I remembered the LORD; 
And my prayer went _up_ to You, 
Into Your holy temple. 
8"Those who regard worthless idols 
Forsake their own Mercy. 
9But I will sacrifice to You 
With the voice of thanksgiving; 
I will pay what I have vowed. 
Salvation _is_ of the LORD." 
*10*So the LORD spoke to the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry _land._​


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## divya (Apr 13, 2009)

EbonyHairedPrincess said:


> ^^^  I took the time to look up the scripture and I am a little disturbed.  Jonah was in the midst of a prayer (pity party) when her used the term forever.  There is no way you can confuse the definitions.  One term is being used by a man who is lamenting over his self inflicted plight the other was instructed to write down _most_ of the secret thing of the Most Holy that he was shown in a vision by God.  The use of the word in the two different context leave absolutely no room for confusion:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As the verse indicate, he was in the belly of the whale, crying out to the Lord. Yes, it was because of his self-inflicted plight. He described the period as forever. Was he there forever?

And what about Sodom and Gomorrah? God rained down fire and brimstone from heaven. Are those places still burning?


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## BeautifulFlower (Apr 13, 2009)

Thats exactly what I thought. We on the same page. I was like, "He's praying...if I spent 2 minutes in a whale it would feel like forever to me too."



EbonyHairedPrincess said:


> ^^^ I took the time to look up the scripture and I am a little disturbed. Jonah was in the midst of a prayer (pity party) when her used the term forever. There is no way you can confuse the definitions. One term is being used by a man who is lamenting over his self inflicted plight the other was instructed to write down _most_ of the secret thing of the Most Holy that he was shown in a vision by God. The use of the word in the two different context leave absolutely no room for confusion:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 13, 2009)

Here is the scripture:

*1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (NKJV)*  This scripture is talking about the lake of fire.  We already know everyone perished in that fire now they are going to burn eternally there.   .


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## divya (Apr 13, 2009)

EbonyHairedPrincess said:


> Here is the scripture:
> 
> *1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (NKJV)*  This scripture is talking about the lake of fire  .



Thanks girl. I was coming back to add it. Too slow for you ladies.  

Here the Scripture tells us that the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah are an example of what will happen to the wicked at the end. The verse describes the cities as suffering "eternal" fire. But are they still burning? No, both have burned and went away.  The Bible says that is our example of what will happen with the lake of fire. 

*Malachi 4:1-2* - F_or, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: *and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.* But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall._

That's a main reason why we differ.  The Bible often uses some different language to describe events. Sometimes eternal/forever just mean until the end of an occasion, til everything is complete. So just like Sodom and Gomorrah's fire burn up, so will the lake of fire until nothing is left, as the verses in Malachi state.


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## Crown (Apr 13, 2009)

What I understand :
*Life :*
body + spirit = soul (living soul)
Gen.  2:7 And the LORD God formed man _of_ the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a *living soul*. 
*
Death :*
 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou _art,_ and unto *dust* shalt thou return.
Psalm 44:25For *our soul is bowed down to the dust*: our belly cleaveth unto the earth. 
Eccl.  12:7 *Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Resurrection :
*    Isa. 26:19 *Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise.* Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew _is as_ the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

  Dan. 12:2 And *many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.* 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
  12:12 Blessed _is_ he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end _be:_ *for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.*
  **
*Your body is yours for the time you are living, the spirit is for GOD. Death is not eternal*, the unrighteous will burn until becoming dust. *Only GOD is Eternal*. We can participate in His eternity only through JESUS-CHRIST. Rev. 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, *and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great*; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 13, 2009)

prettyfaceANB said:


> Thats exactly what I thought. We on the same page. I was like, "He's praying...if I spent 2 minutes in a whale it would feel like forever to me too."


 
Look, call me Mrs. Sack Cloth & Ashes.  I would do what-eva I needed to do to get out.


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 13, 2009)

divya said:


> Thanks girl. I was coming back to add it. Too slow for you ladies.
> 
> Here the Scripture tells us that the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah are an example of what will happen to the wicked at the end. The verse describes the cities as suffering "eternal" fire. But are they still burning? No, both have burned and went away. The Bible says that is our example of what will happen with the lake of fire.
> 
> ...


 
But it has nothing to do with the city burning.  The city didn't sin.  The people did and yes they are stilla burnin. In hell for now soon eternally in the lake of fire.


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## BeautifulFlower (Apr 13, 2009)

divya said:


> That's what I'm asking. What do you understand eternal fire and forever in the below verses to mean?
> 
> Where the Bible said that Jonah was in the belly of the whale for ever Jonah 2:6, but then it says that he was in the whale 3 days and 3 days.
> 
> ...


 
I mean just because we can not see it in the physical doesnt mean the process continue. As believers, we are to walk by faith not by sight. I also try to always keep my scriptures within context. 

For example, Jonah was praying when he said forever. I was also very sorrowful and trapped in a whale. A second would feel like forever to me too. I cried and pray and say all kinds of crazy things too. We forget that the individuals of the bible very human and do and feel and think just as we do. Put yourself in his shoes...

Though Sodom and Gommorah does not physically burn, I bet the souls continue to burn and the people (not the place) continue to reap the punishment of God for their lawless ways.


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## divya (Apr 13, 2009)

EbonyHairedPrincess said:


> But it has nothing to do with the city burning.  The city didn't sin.  The people did and yes they are stilla burnin. In hell for now soon eternally in the lake of fire.



Where does it say that in the Scripture?


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## divya (Apr 13, 2009)

prettyfaceANB said:


> I mean just because we can not see it in the physical doesnt mean the process continue. As believers, we are to walk by faith not by sight. I also try to always keep my scriptures within context.
> 
> For example, Jonah was praying when he said forever. I was also very sorrowful and trapped in a whale. A second would feel like forever to me too. I cried and pray and say all kinds of crazy things too. We forget that the individuals of the bible very human and do and feel and think just as we do. Put yourself in his shoes...
> 
> *Though Sodom and Gommorah does not physically burn, I bet the souls continue to burn and the people (not the place) continue to reap the punishment of God for their lawless ways.*



Where does that say that in the Scripture? How do you reconcile that belief with verses such as these?

*Rev 20:5* - _But *the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished*. This is the first resurrection. _

*John 5:28 - 29*. _Marvel not at this:* for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,* and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation._ 

Not jumping on you btw, I just don't understand how people who believe in hell that burns forever and never ends reconcile the example of Sodom and Gomorrah and all the other verses that state that we that die wait in the grave until Jesus returns to give us our reward, whatever it may be?


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 13, 2009)

divya said:


> Where does it say that in the Scripture?


 
Wow really?  You honestly don't realize this is not talking about the actual brick and morter city still burning?  I suppose we must agree to disagree  .


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## divya (Apr 13, 2009)

EbonyHairedPrincess said:


> Wow really?  You honestly don't realize this is not talking about the actual brick and morter city still burning?  I suppose we must agree to disagree  .



Well, I accept what the Scriptures state. There were people within the city. Only Lot and his family escaped. So is the city still burning? The term used was _eternal_, and it does have a different meaning here. 

*Jude 1:7* as *Sodom and Gomorrah*, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, *are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.* (NKJV)

The Bible does clearly state that is an example of the end eternal fire. So if the fire here did burn until everything was gone, so will the lake of fire in the end. We already know the one in the end will have people in it. Even if one wanted to say that the verses were refer to the brick and mortar for the cities, the Bible still says that this is an example of the end. So people will burn until they are gone, just like the cities did. Malachi tells us nothing will be left of them.


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## BeautifulFlower (Apr 13, 2009)

divya said:


> Where does it say that in the Scripture?


 
Unrepent go to hell. Sodom and Gomorrah the city no longer exist. The people however burn with all the other unrepentent. No special scripture or meaning needed. Its a given.


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## divya (Apr 13, 2009)

prettyfaceANB said:


> Unrepent go to hell. Sodom and Gomorrah the city no longer exist. The people however burn with all the other unrepentent. No special scripture or meaning needed. Its a given.



My approach may differ a bit. I personally cannot believe in just givens and need Scriptural bases. The verses tell us they will be an example of the end, of what the Bible calls eternal fire. So as they burned and don't exist, so will the lake of fire in the end.

I cannot just dismiss the verses due to a well accepted belief. I do understand that hell as you and ebony believe, is the "given" in mainstream Christianity. But this is just one of many things that I find in contradiction with the Scriptures. All in all, I just pray we are all in the Kingdom.


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 13, 2009)

divya said:


> Where does that say that in the Scripture? How do you reconcile that belief with verses such as these?
> 
> *Rev 20:5* - _But *the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished*. This is the first resurrection. _
> 
> ...


  The question wasn't really about Sodom or Gomorrah it was about 


This about sums it up:

*Question: "Where did Old Testament believers go when they died?"

Answer: *The Old Testament teaches life after death, and that all people went to a place of conscious existence called Sheol. The wicked were there (Psalm 9:17; 31:17; 49:14; Isaiah 5:14), and so were the righteous (Genesis 37:35; Job 14:13; Psalm 6:5; 16:10; 88:3; Isaiah 38:10).

The New Testament equivalent of Sheol is Hades. Prior to Christ’s resurrection, Luke 16:19-31 shows Hades to be divided into two realms: a place of comfort where Lazarus was and a place of torment where the rich man was. The word hell in verse 23 is not “Gehenna” (place of eternal torment) but “Hades” (place of the dead). Lazarus’s place of comfort is elsewhere called Paradise (Luke 23:43). Between these two districts of Hades is “a great gulf fixed” (Luke 16:26).

Jesus is described as having descended into Hades after His death (Acts 2:27, 31; cf. Ephesians 4:9). At the resurrection of Jesus Christ, it seems that the believers in Hades (i.e., the occupants of Paradise) were moved to another location. Now, Paradise is above rather than below (2 Corinthians 12:2-4).

Today, when a believer dies, he is “present with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:6-9). When an unbeliever dies, he follows the Old Testament unbelievers to Hades. At the final judgment, Hades will be emptied before the Great White Throne, where its occupants will be judged prior to entering the lake of fire (Revelation 20:13-15).


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 13, 2009)

I forgot to give the reference website for the last part  .

http://www.gotquestions.org/Old-Testament-believers.html


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## divya (Apr 13, 2009)

EbonyHairedPrincess said:


> The question wasn't really about Sodom or Gomorrah it was about
> 
> 
> This about sums it up:
> ...



Actually, I have the Hebrew and Greek translations here.

Sheol translates to "the grave" in Hebrew. 
Hades translates to "the grave" in the Greek. 

I just clicked the *Psalms 9:17* link. It reads -  _The wicked return to *the grave*,﻿
all the nations that forget God. _

*Psalm 31:17* _Let me not be put to shame, O Lord, for I have cried out to you; but let the wicked be put to shame and *lie silent in the grave*._

The verses you have posted support _the grave_ translation.

Here are the verses that state that the dead are *not conscious*: 

*Ecclesiates 9:5-10 * - _For the living know that they shall die:* but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.* Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works. Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment. Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, *in the grave, whither thou goest*._


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 13, 2009)

I ain't did nothing but eat and read scriptures all evening.  My husband in hovering so I need to go.  Tuck my daughter in, exercise and shower.  Talk to you ladies tommorrow.


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## divya (Apr 13, 2009)

EbonyHairedPrincess said:


> I ain't did nothing but eat and read scriptures all evening.  *My husband in hovering so I need to go*.  Tuck my daughter in, exercise and shower.  Talk to you ladies tommorrow.



Girl, you better! That poor husband...awwww. My FH called like "what are you doing?" Guess that's what happens when you are studying the Word. Have a good night!


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 13, 2009)

divya said:


> Girl, you better! That poor husband...awwww. My FH called like "what are you doing?" Guess that's what happens when you are studying the Word. Have a good night!


 
Night, Night.


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## blazingthru (Apr 13, 2009)

Not jumping on you btw, I just don't understand how people who believe in hell that burns forever and never ends reconcile the example of Sodom and Gomorrah and all the other verses that state that we that die wait in the grave until Jesus returns to give us our reward, whatever it may be?[/quote]



 This is exactly what I have been saying all along.  I mean are we all just ignoring the scriptures that state exactly whats going on? The same scriptures are repeated over and over throughout this thread. I am just amazed.


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## blazingthru (Apr 13, 2009)

prettyfaceANB said:


> I have to disagree completely with you on this one.
> 
> Everyone will have to account for their own individual decisions. It doesnt really matter what we think is right or wrong or how we think God should run the universe. God truly loves us and it would grieve him to make anyone suffer eternally, He would never have us looking on our love ones watching them suffer forever and ever. If I was God, I'd accept everything but I am not God and there's a good reason for that. And because I am creation and not Creator, I have no right to question my Creator. I wasn't questioning God I was questioning the belief that anyone would think that a parable is the real thing. I am not a bible scholar, but I know that the bible back itsself up and there is no other parable, story or factual scripture that says. We will see hell through the gates of heaven and watch family and or friend out there begging us forever and ever to send them some comfort. I guess to some at some point they can just ignore them and go on. Yeah right.  this is true we will see them, but after a while it will be over and then God will wipe the tear out of our eyes and a new heaven and a new earth will be created.
> 
> ...


 What I was saying- was that God is so loving and so just and that he gives us so much time he is waiting patiently so that no one would be lost, No one.  His laws are perfect.


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## Shimmie (Apr 13, 2009)

EbonyHairedPrincess said:


> ^^^ I took the time to look up the scripture and I am a little disturbed. Jonah was in the midst of a prayer (pity party) when her used the term forever. There is no way you can confuse the definitions. One term is being used by a man who is lamenting over his self inflicted plight the other was instructed to write down _most_ of the secret thing of the Most Holy that he was shown in a vision by God. The use of the word in the two different context leave absolutely no room for confusion:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


prettyfaceANB said:


> Thats exactly what I thought. We on the same page. I was like, "He's praying...if I spent 2 minutes in a whale it would feel like forever to me too."


 
The two of you are correct.   When 'we' as humans are in the midst of something, it feels like 'Forever'.

Here's something we can 'all' identify with.

Growing my hair from neck length to shoulder length......

Took Forever

From Shoulder to APL.......

'Forever'

From APL to Bra Strap........

'Forever'

From Bra Strap to now _almost _Mid-Back

'Forever'

Come on , Mid Back stop taking 'Forever', I've waited long enough.  .
_____________

Jonah was a man in deep terror and distress.  Thrown into a darkness of which he had never known and had no hope of escape or survival.  That whale's belly was 'forever.' 

Jonah's words were also the words of Jesus, a prophetic word from the Lord, speaking the very experience and agony that Jesus would be speaking as He, Himself, descended into hell, paying the price so that we would not have to.   Prophetic words of the 'Cross' are all throughout the Word of God.  

There's no doubt, as Jesus hung upon the cross, endured the pain, the agony, the torment, then released His spirit into the hands of God's plan of our redemption, to complete the entire process of the penalty of our sin,  Jesus, too, felt that it was ........'Forever.'   and 'Forever it was and still is.  For the Price of our sin is paid in full, 'Forever'.


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## divya (Apr 13, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> The two of you are correct.   When 'we' as humans are in the midst of something, it feels like 'Forever'.
> 
> Here's something we can 'all' identify with.
> 
> ...



So then why is the same principle not applied to the lake of fire, particularly when numerous scriptures support the same application?


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## divya (Apr 13, 2009)

blazingthru said:


> What I was saying- was that God is so loving and so just and that he gives us so much time he is waiting patiently so that no one would be lost, No one.  His laws are perfect.



Amen...maybe that's just it. God is loving, we as humans aren't as perfect as he.  Even when it is clear that the Bible uses are different meaning for forever and eternal in so many places, and even when He gave us an example with Sodom and Gomorrah. God will not do that to His creations.

No matter the time, the same old deception prevails. 

*Genesis 3:4* _And the serpent (Satan) said unto the woman, "Ye shall not surely die:_

Today, there is just another twist to the lie. That even the wicked will not die, but will suffer endlessly. It's the same old story...


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## BeautifulFlower (Apr 13, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> The two of you are correct. When 'we' as humans are in the midst of something, it feels like 'Forever'.
> 
> Here's something we can 'all' identify with.
> 
> ...


 
Mid-back is taking forever though.


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## BeautifulFlower (Apr 13, 2009)

Lets let this thread die....forever


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## divya (Apr 13, 2009)

prettyfaceANB said:


> Lets let this thread die....forever



But which forever? Cuz one keeps going and going...the other actually dies and is gone!


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## DarlingNikki (Apr 14, 2009)

delete.........


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## DarlingNikki (Apr 14, 2009)

divya said:


> Absolutely not!
> 
> *I believe that we just don't have access to other worlds because humanity fell into sin*. When we get to heaven, there will be so much more we will experience!
> 
> ...



I'm not sure how to ask this but are you saying that there are other worlds out there that possibly passed the "forbidden fruit" test with flying colors?  Do you think they are living in a state of perfection directly amongst God, like we did in the very beginning?  And do you believe there are other worlds out there that are in the same predicament as us?  Not sure if my questions make sense...if not, I'll try to clarify it better .


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## DarlingNikki (Apr 14, 2009)

divya said:


> Jesus will reward the righteous eternal life when He comes back for us, at the Second Coming.
> 
> *John 3:16* - _For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that *whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.*_
> 
> ...



I am >>>here<<< with you on everything you stated, because that is what I was thinking.  But then I read different verses that make me go back and forth in my train of thought....so please bear with my brainstorming.  Ok.  What if the wicked are doomed to "everlasing _death_"?  Meaning that they die a death of agony over and over and over and over again for all eternity?  That would certainly make a hell equipped with fire and brimstone more feasible of a fate.  And that would certainly mean that they were in fact not rewarded with everlasting _life_....."life" meaning to be in the presence of God....and "death" meaning the absence of God and his mercy.  With my reference of "death", I am talking about the 2nd death.  In the verse you quoted which stated "the dead know nothing", could it possibly have been talking about the 1st death?  Or if in fact it was referring to the 2nd death maybe it meant that "spiritually" they know nothing because of their separation from God?  I'm really not sure, that's why I'm asking .

I'm just trying to grasp a better understanding by looking at all possible angles.

ETA:  I just looked up the rest of the the "dead know nothing" verse.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 (New International Version)

 5 For the living know that they will die,
       but the dead know nothing;
       they have no further reward,
       and even the memory of them is forgotten


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## divya (Apr 14, 2009)

DarlingNikki said:


> I'm not sure how to ask this but are you saying that there are other worlds out there that possibly passed the "forbidden fruit" test with flying colors?  Do you think they are living in a state of perfection directly amongst God, like we did in the very beginning?  And do you believe there are other worlds out there that are in the same predicament as us?  Not sure if my questions make sense...if not, I'll try to clarify it better .



Well yes, probably. If in fact the verses mean what they appear too, the sons of God _presented themselves_ before the Lord. I mean, usually the angels are referred to as such or specifically by name (Gabriel).  So there are likely other creations. In the Scriptures, we are generally only told about our story. If there are others worlds out there, I doubt God would allow us to ever get to them. With the state of our world, what would happen? We'd probably try to exploit them or worse yet, kill them to take whatever they have. 

The second one is a good question. Maybe not because the sin story would probably be broader picture for us. But then again, who knows? Could be one of those questions we'll have to get answered when we see Him.


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## divya (Apr 14, 2009)

DarlingNikki said:


> I am >>>here<<< with you on everything you stated, because that is what I was thinking.  But then I read different verses that make me go back and forth in my train of thought....so please bear with my brainstorming.  Ok.  What if the wicked are doomed to "everlasing _death_"?  Meaning that they die a death of agony over and over and over and over again for all eternity?  That would certainly make a hell equipped with fire and brimstone more feasible of a fate.  And that would certainly mean that they were in fact not rewarded with everlasting _life_....."life" meaning to be in the presence of God....and "death" meaning the absence of God and his mercy.  With my reference of "death", I am talking about the 2nd death.  In the verse you quoted which stated "the dead know nothing", could it possibly have been talking about the 1st death?  Or if in fact it was referring to the 2nd death maybe it meant that "spiritually" they know nothing because of their separation from God?  I'm really not sure, that's why I'm asking .
> 
> I'm just trying to grasp a better understanding by looking at all possible angles.
> 
> ...



Well, in a sense one might say that they are doomed to an everlasting death because the _effects_ of the lake of fire will be permanent. Never again will they have life.  

The concept that you put forward is definitely an interesting one.  Never thought of that. However, the issue there would be that the Scriptures give us the 1st death and then the 2nd death.  Also here…

*Rev. 20:14*_ And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. _

The first part here states that death and hell were cast into the lake. (Note: the Greek translation of hell here is the grave).  So both death and the grave are cast into the lake of fire.

In Malachi, the Scriptures tell us that everything in the lake of fire will be destroyed completely.

*Malachi 4:1-2* -_ For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and *all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.* But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall._

Then, chapter 20 of Revelation talks about there being no more death: 

*Rev. 20:4* - _And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away._

This means that no one can die over and over or be in sorrow or pain. So the lake of fire and death must end. The former things are passed away...

After all this now, we can go back to Romans 6:23 and see that the wages of sin is death. That will be the ultimate fate of those who choose not to accept Christ, and the opposite is true for those of us who love and serve Him.

Please let me know if I'm not being clear in some way. Really sleepy...been working on a paper most of the night.


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## Crown (Apr 14, 2009)

EbonyHairedPrincess said:


> The question wasn't really about Sodom or Gomorrah it was about
> ...
> Jesus is described as having descended into Hades after His death (Acts 2:27, 31; cf. Ephesians 4:9). At the resurrection of Jesus Christ, it seems that the believers in Hades (i.e., the occupants of Paradise) were moved to another location. Now, Paradise is above rather than below (2 Corinthians 12:2-4).
> 
> ...



Sorry, but 2 Cor 12:2-4 has no relation with death : it's a vision.

Matt. 27:52 *And the graves were opened*; and *many bodies of the saints which slept arose*,  27:53 And *came out of the graves* after his resurrection, and *went into the holy city*, and appeared unto many.  27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

2Cor  5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that *every one may receive the things done in his body*, according to that he hath done, *whether it be good or bad*.

John  5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, *in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice*,  5:29 And shall come forth; they that have *done good*, unto the *resurrection of life*; and they that have *done evil*, unto the *resurrection of damnation*.
**
Eternal life /or/ dead (forever) with no possibility of redemption, but dead until the body becoming dust in the lake of fire.


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## Shimmie (Apr 14, 2009)

divya said:


> So then why is the same principle not applied to the lake of fire, particularly when numerous scriptures support the same application?


  Hi Divya....

Based upon my post regarding 'Jonah's 'forever': 

In answer to your question about the principle not applied to the lake of fire: why does it have to?    What I mean by this is that no matter what individual understanding everyone has of what death, hell and the grave is, the term, 'forever' still means what it means when Jonah cried out in prayer.   

Jonah was a man in distress and note that it was Jonah and not God who called it, 'forever.'    And as Jonah was speaking prophetically the torment of Jesus, it was Jesus in the flesh, a human state of mind enduring all of our pain, agony and sins, which indeed felt like forever.

There are wayyyyy, too many theories about this issue regarding hell, who / when/ where, and God forbid, the disbelief of hell and it's inevitable torment, even for loved ones who have made hell their choice.  

This I know, God doesn't lie.  Folks go to hell and are still going everyday.    Jesus made it plain and simple.   He doesn't lie.   The body dies and lies in wait until it's spirit returns to it.    In the meantime,  the soul of man is not floating around in an endless cycle awaiting judgement, neither is it sleeping.    It enters into one or two places, Heaven or hell.   One of paradise and one of torment.    

I respect everyone's perspective and this is how I choose to leave it.  There's only one true way of finding out how this truly works, and that is to die.    And this makes it all the more imperative for everyone to get their  lives in order.   There's a curtain call coming for all.    

Blessings sweet lady.


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## divya (Apr 14, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> Hi Divya....
> 
> Based upon my post regarding 'Jonah's 'forever':
> 
> ...



Well, personally I believe that consistency should be looked for when it comes to language in the Bible, also translations, etc. There are many theories but the Bible is very consistent about tell us exactly what happens when we die. It simply does not say that folks go to a currently burning place everyday. It's a consistent them from the Old Testament to the New Testament that we go to the grave and are unconscious. The Bible states that the dead sleep until Jesus comes with the reward. It is true, God does not lie. Dan. 12:2, Psalm 13:3, 2 Samuel 7:12, Acts 7:59-60, John 11.11-14, Job 7:21, 1 Corinthians 15:18, Ecclesiastes 9:5,10, Psalm 146:4. 

We can agree to disagree though. 

Bless!


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## Aggie (Apr 14, 2009)

Interesting thread, subscribing to read later.


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## Shimmie (Apr 14, 2009)

divya said:


> Well, personally I believe that consistency should be looked for when it comes to language in the Bible, also translations, etc. There are many theories but the Bible is very consistent about tell us exactly what happens when we die. It simply does not say that folks go to a currently burning place everyday. It's a consistent them from the Old Testament to the New Testament that we go to the grave and are unconscious. The Bible states that the dead sleep until Jesus comes with the reward. It is true, God does not lie. Dan. 12:2, Psalm 13:3, 2 Samuel 7:12, Acts 7:59-60, John 11.11-14, Job 7:21, 1 Corinthians 15:18, Ecclesiastes 9:5,10, Psalm 146:4.
> 
> We can agree to disagree though.
> 
> Bless!


I definitely agree with you about consistency and I agree with much of what's been shared in this thread.    But it's too much dialogue and too many opinions which is making this topic more complicated than it needs to be.    Jesus made it simple in Luke 16; He didn't lie nor did He 'create' a theory.    

He nailed it, clear and plain, as sure as He was nailed to the cross.  And we 'all' know that He was nailed to the cross even though none of us were there to literally 'see' it.   

I'm not disagreeing with any one's perception (except that of not wanting to love God because folks suffer in hell).   I just don't feel it's conducive to drive it into an endless hell of further doubt.   

No matter how many scriptures we post, it's still goes back to what Jesus said in Luke 16; it's not going to change.   Only the physical body needs and does sleep.  Our spirit and our souls are always awake.   They are not an earthen vessel subject to the needs of the human body (eating, sleeping, thirst, waste elimination, charmin bathroon tissue).  

All in all, I think this is a good thread and each of you have spoken well to one another in spite of any differences of perspectives (opinions aren't equated to the rich knowledge each has shared here).     What I see in this thread are the minds and hearts of excellent students who have held fast to what they've learned and are well versed in scripture.  

The Lord simply has me 'somewhere else', prepping me for another issue which will soon hit this forum with such magnitude, that we will all be in prayer before we post.  We have a 'defector' in the midst.  And we will each be able to discern and watch and pray.  

So with that.......

:thatsall:  

Love and blessings.   I mean it sincerely.


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## divya (Apr 14, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> I definitely agree with you about consistency and I agree with much of what's been shared in this thread.    But it's too much dialogue and too many opinions which is making this topic more complicated than it needs to be.    Jesus made it simple in Luke 16; He didn't lie nor did He 'create' a theory.
> 
> He nailed it, clear and plain, as sure as He was nailed to the cross.  And we 'all' know that He was nailed to the cross even though none of us were there to literally 'see' it.
> 
> ...



*Jesus made it clear John 11: *

11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, *Our friend Lazarus sleepeth;* but I go, that *I may awake him out of sleep.
*
12Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

*13Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.*

 14*Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. *

Jesus statements here are consistent with the myriad of Scriptures listed in this thread that state that when we die, we sleep until Jesus raises again. Jesus does not contradict the Holy Word. *God is always the same*. Luke 16 is a parable and if taken to advocate endless torment would mean to contradict Jesus statements in John 11 that we sleep when we die and numerous other verses in the Bible that states that we sleep when we die. To me, the more support in the Word, the better. But I do understand that not all will agree.

God Bless!


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## Nice & Wavy (Apr 14, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> I definitely agree with you about consistency and I agree with much of what's been shared in this thread. But it's too much dialogue and too many opinions which is making this topic more complicated than it needs to be. Jesus made it simple in Luke 16; He didn't lie nor did He 'create' a theory.
> 
> He nailed it, clear and plain, as sure as He was nailed to the cross. And we 'all' know that He was nailed to the cross even though none of us were there to literally 'see' it.
> 
> ...


I want you to know that I heard what you said and the impact is powerful.

Love you!


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## Shimmie (Apr 14, 2009)

Nice & Wavy said:


> I want you to know that I heard what you said and the impact is powerful.
> 
> Love you!


Thanks sis.... I mean it.


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## Nice & Wavy (Apr 14, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> Thanks sis.... I mean it.


I know you do....


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## jwhitley6 (Apr 14, 2009)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Sorry that it took me so long to get back to this post...my computer at home is busted, so I had to wait to come to work to answer.
> 
> @ the bolded....I did not misconstrue your words...I simply answered your post according to how I read it.
> 
> ...


 
Hi Nice & Wavy! 

I don't frequently post here, but I've really enjoyed the food for thought on this matter.  I was raised COGIC, mom is a missionary/evangelist.  I've been tought the bible.  However, I'm finding now that as I search the Word for myself I am seeing some things in a different light, while other existing beliefs are enhanced.  I've come to believe that parables are not always literal....but ALWAYS PURPOSEFUL.  I'm constantly searching to understand that purpose.  

If you don't mind, I would appreciate more "throwing around" scriptures.  I have several versions of the Bible I can reference and a commentary that offers some interesting perspectives.  I'd like to be able to read your points of view and see supporting scriptures that lead you to this view.  It helps me to grow. 

Ultimately, it doesn't matter to me if there is or isn't a hell...I'm living for God regardless.


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## Nice & Wavy (Apr 14, 2009)

jwhitley6 said:


> Hi Nice & Wavy!
> 
> I don't frequently post here, but I've really enjoyed the food for thought on this matter. I was raised COGIC, mom is a missionary/evangelist. I've been tought the bible. However, I'm finding now that as I search the Word for myself I am seeing some things in a different light, while other existing beliefs are enhanced. I've come to believe that parables are not always literal....but ALWAYS PURPOSEFUL. I'm constantly searching to understand that purpose.
> 
> ...


Hi sis,

Thanks for posting.  Being a christian for so long, sometimes I forget that not everyone is going to understand where I'm are coming from, especially on a forum...so my apologies if I wasn't clear in my post.

What I said in my post was that *I* take parables literally, because its the Word of God.  Jesus saw the importance of sharing it, therefore I cannot refute the importance of it, just because He decided to share about hell and used a parable. 

Hell is a real place, regardless of who believes it.  If we believe the Word of God, then we must know that what it says is 'literal' in every sense of the word.

In John 6:63 Jesus says _"The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The *word*s I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life."_

and in John 12:48, Jesus says _"There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my *words*; that very *word* which I spoke will condemn him at the last day."
_
From what I gather from the Word here being spoken by Jesus, He takes the words that He says, literally.

I'm not going to go any further, because I'm sure you get what I'm saying.  You can pm me if you like

I do want to respond to your last sentence 





> Ultimately, it doesn't matter to me if there is or isn't a hell...I'm living for God regardless.


by saying....we should all care if there is a hell....even if we are living for God, our hearts should be burning for those that don't know God, who will be seperated from Him for all eternity!  We can't think about ourselves only....we are all ministers of reconcilliation...reconciling the world back to God!

Blessings to you, always.


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## jwhitley6 (Apr 14, 2009)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Hi sis,
> 
> Thanks for posting. Being a christian for so long, sometimes I forget that not everyone is going to understand where I'm are coming from, especially on a forum...so my apologies if I wasn't clear in my post.
> 
> ...


 
I'm not saying I don't care about others...just that our motivation for serving God should not be due to fear of hell.  I hope to inspire others to serve God because He is Holy, Righteous and life just works better when we put him first.  I really don't think about hell much, because when I'm separated from God I feel it right here and now....and I don't like it!  I hear you, though.

Blessings to you too!


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## Shimmie (Apr 14, 2009)

jwhitley6 said:


> I'm not saying I don't care about others...just that our motivation for serving God should not be due to fear of hell. I hope to inspire others to serve God because He is Holy, Righteous and life just works better when we put him first. I really don't think about hell much, because when I'm separated from God I feel it right here and now....and I don't like it! I hear you, though.
> 
> Blessings to you too!


:Rose: It's obvious you care about others especially from your approach with Nice and Wavy;,  in the same manner just as I know that hell is far from the heart and motivation for serving God regarding the majority of Christians, namely my sister N&W.    

To be honest, hell is not the focus of anyone, whether they are praising God or sinning.    It's not what folks wish to indulge their thoughts in and 'we' for the most part don't.     

For as long as I've been here, hell is the least of subjects shared in this forum.   Thread after thread,  post after post, you will rarely see hell, or a dedication to it.    This is actually one of the first threads that I can remember that has taken it this far.   And I also know why.   There is a spirit to disfuse it's existance and one's ultimate choice to avoid it. 

Unless they are satanic or satan worshippers, hell is the last thought folks have in mind.   Yet hell is still a real place where folks go.   Like it or not, it's there.   Which is why Jesus,  in Luke 16, made it easier to comprehend for those who didn't and don't believe in it.  It was a loving warning... don't make the trip.  

Blessings...


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## Nice & Wavy (Apr 14, 2009)

jwhitley6 said:


> I'm not saying I don't care about others...just that our motivation for serving God should not be due to fear of hell. I hope to inspire others to serve God because He is Holy, Righteous and life just works better when we put him first. I really don't think about hell much, because when I'm separated from God I feel it right here and now....and I don't like it! I hear you, though.
> 
> Blessings to you too!


I know that's not what you meant, sis.  I believe with my whole heart that you do care about others.  My post wasn't shared because of the 'fear of hell', rather to remind that hell is real!

Thanks for hearing me...it means alot.

Blessings, always.


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## Nice & Wavy (Apr 14, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> :Rose: *It's obvious you care about others especially from your approach with Nice and Wavy;, in the same manner just as I know that hell is far from the heart and motivation for serving God regarding the majority of Christians, namely my sister N&W. *
> 
> To be honest, hell is not the focus of anyone, whether they are praising God or sinning. It's not what folks wish to indulge their thoughts in and 'we' for the most part don't.
> 
> ...


Thank you, sis!


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## Crown (Apr 16, 2009)

WOW!
I copied ALL!
With all those verses, it's a really good study about this subject.
Thank you OP! Thanks to all of you!
GOD bless you!


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## blazingthru (Apr 16, 2009)

EbonyHairedPrincess said:


> Blazing I am not going to get any work done reading all these scriptures  .


 I am just glad your reading them.


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 17, 2009)

blazingthru said:


> I am just glad your reading them.


 
I had to give this thread a rest and give myself time to reflect on what was being said and why.  I never expected this thread to become such an indepth bible study on hell that spans so many branches of Christianity.  I am most pleased that we all debated in love and respect and sometimes humor.  I can't think of anything else to add that will be beneficial but I really had fun.


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## Laela (May 12, 2009)

blazingthru said:


> I don't believe that hell is created or that there is such place in existence today.



Blazin', do you believe in God? or that he exists?


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## blazingthru (May 13, 2009)

Laela said:


> Blazin', do you believe in God? or that he exists?


 I am curious why do you ask?  Is there something in my post that indicates that I don't believe, things like this is important to me because I am always examining myself to see if I am living the life that God calls me to live and so far I have been called many horrible things on the forum that at first really hurt me, but I realize that some people will not agree instead of saying it I have become the enemy. But that is okay, I have learned a lesson from it. You have to be strong and always be willing to give an answer to what you believe.  No matter the cost.

Anyway I had to unlearn to many things and I got all excited and posted on here, I hope it help some. I know it angered others. I love the Lord with all my heart and soul and I cannot wait until Jesus returns I went over my post and I can't find any place that indicates that I dont' believe in God so I am really interested in knowing why do you ask.


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## chicacanella (May 13, 2009)

*I read a Divine Revelation of Hell one time and it sure did get me on the right track or rather God used that book to plant a seed.  It's by Mary K. Baxter. I remembered her name since 9th grade. That was the first time I read her book. Oh yeah, and in the bible it refers to hell as a "her" and talks about it opening up it's mouth wide. I think much prayer, fasting, and studying scriptures is needed to know if it's a spiritual sense. But I think that alot of things in the bible get overlooked because we don't ask God if if it is spiritual or a parabel but most times, it is evident when Jesus Christ was speaking of a parable.
*


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## chicacanella (May 13, 2009)

prettyfaceANB said:


> Is hell a place of fire or a place of complete darkness?
> 
> I see alot of references in the bible about outer darkness but nothing about fire? I know the God uses fire for a number of events.


 

What if the fire that we see on earth has color but perhaps it is possible for God to use fire but not have the color. So then it would be burning but no color to give light. Just thinking but umm, I believe even in hell people are given their just reward for what they've done on earth.


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## Aggie (May 13, 2009)

Originally Posted by *prettyfaceANB* 

 
_Is hell a place of fire or a place of complete darkness? 

I see alot of references in the bible about outer darkness but nothing about fire? I know the God uses fire for a number of events._




chicacanella said:


> What if the fire that we see on earth has color but perhaps it is possible for God to use fire but not have the color. So then it would be burning but no color to give light. Just thinking but umm, I believe even in hell people are given their just reward for what they've done on earth.


 
Read Revelation 20:14 - _And death and hell were cast into the *lake of fire*. This is the second death._

and verse 15 - _And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the *lake of fire*._

Death, hell and all who were not found written in the book of life will all be thrown in the lake of fire.


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## Aggie (May 13, 2009)

chicacanella said:


> *I read a Divine Revelation of Hell one time and it sure did get me on the right track or rather God used that book to plant a seed. It's by Mary K. Baxter. I remembered her name since 9th grade. That was the first time I read her book. Oh yeah, and in the bible it refers to hell as a "her" and talks about it opening up it's mouth wide. I think much prayer, fasting, and studying scriptures is needed to know if it's a spiritual sense. But I think that alot of things in the bible get overlooked because we don't ask God if if it is spiritual or a parabel but most times, it is evident when Jesus Christ was speaking of a parable.*


 
I read this book too and it was sure an eye opener for me to the reality of hell's existence. "He Came To Set The Captives Free" by Dr. rebecca Brown was another eye opener for me. I love those 2 books.


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## Laela (May 14, 2009)

It was a simple question...

I asked because you said you don't believe hell exists. Hell was created by God...In Rev 21, he speaks of this place that he created and who it was created for...Maybe I missed something in reading your posts that could better enlighten me on your position? I'm not in a position to judge, I'm trying to understand.





blazingthru said:


> I am curious why do you ask?  Is there something in my post that indicates that I don't believe, things like this is important to me because I am always examining myself to see if I am living the life that God calls me to live and so far I have been called many horrible things on the forum that at first really hurt me, but I realize that some people will not agree instead of saying it I have become the enemy. But that is okay, I have learned a lesson from it. You have to be strong and always be willing to give an answer to what you believe.  No matter the cost.
> 
> Anyway I had to unlearn to many things and I got all excited and posted on here, I hope it help some. I know it angered others. I love the Lord with all my heart and soul and I cannot wait until Jesus returns I went over my post and I can't find any place that indicates that I dont' believe in God so I am really interested in knowing why do you ask.


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## divya (May 14, 2009)

Laela said:


> It was a simple question...
> 
> I asked because you said you don't believe hell exists. Hell was created by God...In Rev 21, he speaks of this place that he created and who it was created for...Maybe I missed something in reading your posts that could better enlighten me on your position? I'm not in a position to judge, I'm trying to understand.



The question has been answered in the thread. It is extremely long, so you probably haven't had time to get to all of it. There are different beliefs among Christians regarding _hell._ The Greek translation for _hell_ is 54 times the _grave _ in the Bible, so some of us understand many Scriptures differently based on this. Some of us believe that the _lake of fire_ will come at the end.

*John 5:28 - 29*._"Marvel not at this: *for the hour is coming*, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."_

So just to recap, what she was saying is that the particular description of hell which was described in the beginning is not in existence today. Rev. 20 gives more insight into the timing.


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## Laela (May 14, 2009)

So tell me, what happens to the spirit when someone dies? I understand that we lie "silent" in the grave. This is because our spirit has separated from the body.

What happens to the spirit?


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## divya (May 14, 2009)

Laela said:


> So tell me, what happens to the spirit when someone dies? I understand that we lie "silent" in the grave. This is because our spirit has separated from the body.
> 
> What happens to the spirit?



Some of us also do not believe in any inner spirit that is conscious after death. If that was the case then we would be immortal. The Scriptures state that God alone is immortal (1 Timothy 1:17) and only when He comes, will He bestow upon the righteous immortality. (1 Corinthians 15:53).


*Ecclesiates 12:7* - _Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it._The translation of the word _spirit_ in Hebrew is _ruach_. *Ruach simply means breath.* Here is a further explanation: 

*Problem:* This passage is cited as evidence that man's immortal spirit (or soul) leaves the body at death and returns to God.  * Solution:*

1. The passage makes *no* distinction between "good" and "bad" spirits. 
2. If the spirit is to return to God, it must have come from God. But who would suggest one has a conscious existence before the earthly life begins? Therefore, there is no reason to expect a conscious existence when this life ends.
3. The word "spirit" (Hebrew "ruach") is the same as in Ecc. 3:19 (Heb. "ruach", translated "breath"). could any argue that beasts have, or are, immortal "spirits"?
* 4. The writer of Ecclesiastes emphatically teaches the mortality of man. (See Ecc. 9:5,6,10; 3:19,20). * http://www.wrestedscriptures.com/b01immortality/ecclesiastes12v7.html


*Ecclesiastes 9:4-10* states in much detail the condition of the dead. 

*1."the dead know nothing" 
2. "they have no further reward" 
3. "the memory of them is forgotten" [this does not mean OUR memory of them, but THEIR memory] 
4. Their emotions have vanished 
5. "never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun" 
6. "there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom" among the dead.*


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## Laela (May 14, 2009)

divya said:


> Some of us also do not believe in any inner spirit that is conscious after death. If that was the case then we would be immortal. The Scriptures state that God alone is immortal (1 Timothy 1:17) and only when He comes, will He bestow upon the righteous immortality. (1 Corinthians 15:53).



If the spirit doesn't resurrect after death, as you intimate, then why bother get "saved" or live a life of faith? What are we being saved from? You quote some great supporting Scriptures, but when we start to "reason" we can walk that thin line of doubt. I'm not trying to cop out but there are times when reasoning gets the best of us.

The only way for a non-believer to know for sure what happens to them after they die is for them to *just DIE.* I'd rather believe there is an actual hell,  than to die and find out.  
Those who believe God's Word believe we are spirits walking around in temporary bodies.  




> *Ecclesiates 12:7* - _Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it._



That's a good try, but this passage is referring to those who remember their Creator/God. When they return to dust (physical death), their spirit return to God. Ths spirits of who choose not to remember their Creator or live for him will not return to him but instead go to judgment. Actually, hell wasn't even created for us, it was created for Satan and his followers as punishment after they chose to break from God and go to Earth to have sex with humans:

Matthew 25: 41 says _"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire *prepared for the devil and his angels*._.

Hell got enlargen when Jesus died, went to hell to save others and rose again. After that, those who who choose to be followers of Satan will face the same punishment he does because God made room.   Isaiah 5:14 






> *Ecclesiastes 9:4-10* states in much detail the condition of the dead.
> 
> *1."the dead know nothing"
> 2. "they have no further reward"
> ...



This is all true... referring to the dead body. The physical body gets no rewards, has no emtions.... "under the sun" is clear reference to EARTH as we know it.

I read the Scriptures to understand God and what he is saying, not to question or doubt. I think that when we start "reasoning" based on our intellect, we can get caught up in twisting the Scriptures to the point we think God is contradictory or we can quote out of context. There is *no confusion *in the Bible. Many Scriptures can be cross-referenced.

When Jesus spoke in Parables, he was speaking to those who would understand. For not everyone "understands".  In  Matthew 13: 9-11, the disciples ask Jesus why he always speaks in parables. He says "_He who has ears, let him hear... "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them."_

Who is THEM? Those who are NOT open to listen to God.


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## Highly Favored8 (May 14, 2009)

Very good thread ladies I am learning a lot from all of your posts. Very good questions and answers. Very Good.


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## divya (May 14, 2009)

Laela said:


> If the spirit doesn't resurrect after death, as you intimate, then why bother get "saved" or live a life of faith? What are we being saved from? You quote some great supporting Scriptures, but when we start to "reason" we can walk that thin line of doubt. I'm not trying to cop out but there are times when reasoning gets the best of us.
> 
> The only way for a non-believer to know for sure what happens to them after they die is for them to *just DIE.* I'd rather believe there is an actual hell,  than to die and find out.
> Those who believe God's Word believe we are spirits walking around in temporary bodies.



But where are your Scriptures to support this?  Jesus resurrects us. The sound of His voice will bring the righteous up from the grave (hell) at the second coming. 

*
1 Thess 4:16 -17*_ For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:and the dead in Christ shall rise first:Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord_

*I Cor 15:52 -54 *_In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. _

I respect your choice believe what you do, but I will only believe what the Scriptures state.



> *That's a good try, but this passage is referring to those who remember their Creator/God. When they return to dust (physical death), their spirit return to God.* Ths spirits of who choose not to remember their Creator or live for him will not return to him but instead go to judgment. Actually, hell wasn't even created for us, it was created for Satan and his followers as punishment after they chose to break from God and go to Earth to have sex with humans:
> 
> Matthew 25: 41 says _"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire *prepared for the devil and his angels*._.
> 
> ...



Where are the verses that say the bold? Those other verses you give are true, but they don't deal with the issue at hand. For me, I must have multiple verses to support an idea, and I also use the Greek and the Hebrew to make sue that I understand exactly what is being spoken about. 

Hell is used 54 times in the Bible, generally to refer to the grave. So you are right...*there is no confusion. * However, it may require very in depth study.

*ETA:* The whole thread deals with this issue...but just to add..

Sheol translates to "the grave" in Hebrew.
Hades translates to "the grave" in the Greek.


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## divya (May 14, 2009)

This is a good site that was posted earlier. It takes time to read but you can go little by little, verse by verse and use your translations.

http://www.thetruthabouthell.net/

If you don't like reading that much online, it can be print out via pdf.

http://www.thetruthabouthell.net/TheTruthAboutHellFire.pdf


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## topsyturvy86 (May 14, 2009)

Laela said:


> So tell me, what happens to the spirit when someone dies? I understand that we lie "silent" in the grave. This is because our spirit has separated from the body.
> 
> What happens to the spirit?


 
That's a good question. I found something very interesting in the apocrypha which i'll paste below about what happens after death. Its in the book of 2 Esdras : 75 - 115 (Esdras apparently = Ezra)




> _75_ I answered and said, "If I have found favor in your sight, O Lord, show this also to your servant: whether after death, as soon as everyone of us yields up the soul, we shall be kept in rest until those times come when you will renew the creation, or whether we shall be tormented at once?"
> 
> _76_ He answered me and said, "I will show you that also, but do not include yourself with those who have shown scorn, or number yourself among those who are tormented._77_ For you have a treasure of works stored up with the Most High, but it will not be shown to you until the last times._78_ Now concerning death, the teaching is: When the decisive decree has gone out from the Most High that a person shall die, as the spirit leaves the body to return again to him who gave it, first of all it adores the glory of the Most High._79_ If it is one of those who have shown scorn and have not kept the way of the Most High, who have despised his law and hated those who fear God--_80_ such spirits shall not enter into habitations, but shall immediately wander about in torments, always grieving and sad, in seven ways._81_ The first way, because they have scorned the law of the Most High._82_ The second way, because they cannot now make a good repentance so that they may live._83_ The third way, they shall see the reward laid up for those who have trusted the covenants of the Most High._84_ The fourth way, they shall consider the torment laid up for themselves in the last days._85_ The fifth way, they shall see how the habitations of the others are guarded by angels in profound quiet._86_ The sixth way, they shall see how some of them will cross over_s_ into torments._87_ The seventh way, which is worse_t_ than all the ways that have been mentioned, because they shall utterly waste away in confusion and be consumed with shame,_u_ and shall wither with fear at seeing the glory of the Most High in whose presence they sinned while they were alive, and in whose presence they are to be judged in the last times.
> _88_ "Now this is the order of those who have kept the ways of the Most High, when they shall be separated from their mortal body._v__89_ During the time that they lived in it,_w_ they laboriously served the Most High, and withstood danger every hour so that they might keep the law of the Lawgiver perfectly._90_ Therefore this is the teaching concerning them:_91_ First of all, they shall see with great joy the glory of him who receives them, for they shall have rest in seven orders._92_ The first order, because they have striven with great effort to overcome the evil thought that was formed with them, so that it might not lead them astray from life into death._93_ The second order, because they see the perplexity in which the souls of the ungodly wander and the punishment that awaits them._94_ The third order, they see the witness that he who formed them bears concerning them, that throughout their life they kept the law with which they were entrusted._95_ The fourth order, they understand the rest that they now enjoy, being gathered into their chambers and guarded by angels in profound quiet, and the glory waiting for them in the last days._96_ The fifth order, they rejoice that they have now escaped what is corruptible and shall inherit what is to come; and besides they see the straits and toil_x_ from which they have been delivered, and the spacious liberty that they are to receive and enjoy in immortality._97_ The sixth order, when it is shown them how their face is to shine like the sun, and how they are to be made like the light of the stars, being incorruptible from then on._98_ The seventh order, which is greater than all that have been mentioned, because they shall rejoice with boldness, and shall be confident without confusion, and shall be glad without fear, for they press forward to see the face of him whom they served in life and from whom they are to receive their reward when glorified._99_ This is the order of the souls of the righteous, as henceforth is announced;_y_ and the previously mentioned are the ways of torment that those who would not give heed shall suffer hereafter."
> ...


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## divya (May 14, 2009)

topsyturvy86 said:


> That's a good question. I found something very interesting in the apocrypha which i'll paste below about what happens after death. Its in the book of 2 Esdras : 75 - 115 (Esdras apparently = Ezra)



Interesting, it's very different from the KJV of the Bible. 2 Esdras is not part of the Hebrew Old Testament or the Greek New Testament.

Wonder if that that's an unmentioned basis of many mainstream Christian denominations. It was canonized by the Roman Catholic church in 1546 AD, largely supporting it's doctrine. But I'm seeing here that 2 Esdras was rejected by Roman Catholics.

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/apocryph.htm

Here is the KJV of the Scriptures, which is completely different and translated from the Hebrew Old Testament: 

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezra 2;&version=9;


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## topsyturvy86 (May 14, 2009)

divya said:


> Interesting, it's very different from the KJV of the Bible. It isn't part of the Hebrew Old Testament or the Greek New Testament.
> 
> Wonder if that that's an unmentioned basis of many mainstream Christian denominations. It was canonized by the Roman Catholic church in 1546 AD, largely supporting it's doctrine. But I'm seeing here that 2 Esdras was rejected by Roman Catholics but kept by the Greek Orthodox faith.
> 
> ...


 

I don't know the history of the apocrypha and have never cared enough to find out to be honest. I know all of the books were taken out of the bible for reason's such as not being relevant or Holy spirit inspired but I read it anyway because i'm curious. From what ive read so far, it doesn't contradict the bible, just filled with stories. 

I came across that a while ago and thought id share as it's always good to know what's out there.


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## topsyturvy86 (May 14, 2009)

divya said:


> Interesting, it's very different from the KJV of the Bible. 2 Esdras is not part of the Hebrew Old Testament or the Greek New Testament.
> 
> *Wonder if that that's an unmentioned basis of many mainstream Christian denominations*. It was canonized by the Roman Catholic church in 1546 AD, largely supporting it's doctrine. But I'm seeing here that 2 Esdras was rejected by Roman Catholics.
> 
> ...


 

I highly doubt it. They're mainly old testament books and Christianity is based mainly on Christ.


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## divya (May 14, 2009)

topsyturvy86 said:


> I don't know the history of the apocrypha and have never cared enough to find out to be honest. I know all of the books were taken out of the bible for reason's such as not being relevant or Holy spirit inspired but I read it anyway because i'm curious. *From what ive read so far, it doesn't contradict the bible, just filled with stories. *
> 
> I came across that a while ago and thought id share as it's always good to know what's out there.



Cool. My mother grew up Roman Catholic and many of my relatives still profess the faith. So it's something I had a little knowledge about, but this led to more. Honestly, I find that it does contradict with the Scriptures, which is likely why it wasn't included. Things like "alms make atonement for sin" and "Mary being born without sin" are a few. But that's just my belief. Maybe some other Protestant faiths believe that...


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## divya (May 14, 2009)

topsyturvy86 said:


> I highly doubt it.* They're mainly old testament books and Christianity is based mainly on Christ.*



I'm confused. What does that mean? The Old Testament predicts Christ, and so is just as relevant to Christianity.


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## topsyturvy86 (May 14, 2009)

divya said:


> Cool. My mother grew up Roman Catholic and many of my relative still profess the faith. So it's something I had a little knowledge about, but this lead to more. Honestly, I find that it does contradict with the Scriptures, which is likely why it wasn't included. Things like "alms make atonement for sin" and "Mary being born without sin" are a few. But that's just my belief. Maybe some other Protestant faiths believe that...


 

No, u're talking about the Catholic bible, the corrupt one. They shouldn't really have those anymore. The old Catholic bible included the apocrypha books but they're not the same thing. Read the website below, it looks at the history of the bible as we know it today.



> While Noah Webster, just a few years after producing his famous Dictionary of the English Language, would produce his own modern translation of the English Bible in 1833; the public remained too loyal to the King James Version for Webster’s version to have much impact. It was not really until the 1880’s that England’s own planned replacement for their King James Bible, the English Revised Version(E.R.V.) would become the first English language Bible to gain popular acceptance as a post-King James Version modern-English Bible. The widespread popularity of this modern-English translation brought with it another curious characteristic: the absence of the 14 Apocryphal books.
> 
> Up until the 1880’s every Protestant Bible (not just Catholic Bibles) had 80 books, not 66! The inter-testamental books written hundreds of years before Christ called “The Apocrypha” were part of virtually every printing of the Tyndale-Matthews Bible, the Great Bible, the Bishops Bible, the Protestant Geneva Bible, and the King James Bible until their removal in the 1880’s! The original 1611 King James contained the Apocrypha, and King James threatened anyone who dared to print the Bible without the Apocrypha with heavy fines and a year in jail. Only for the last 120 years has the Protestant Church rejected these books, and removed them from their Bibles. This has left most modern-day Christians believing the popular myth that there is something “Roman Catholic” about the Apocrypha. There is, however, no truth in that myth, and no widely-accepted reason for the removal of the Apocrypha in the 1880’s has ever been officially issued by a mainline Protestant denomination.


 
http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/


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## topsyturvy86 (May 14, 2009)

divya said:


> I'm confused. What does that mean? The Old Testament predicts Christ, and so is just as relevant to Christianity.


 
I highly doubt a form of Christianity would be heavily based on old testament books that aren't even a part of the bible anymore. BUT ... u never know ...


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## divya (May 14, 2009)

topsyturvy86 said:


> No, u're talking about the Catholic bible, the corrupt one. They shouldn't really have those anymore. The old Catholic bible included the apocrypha books but they're not the same thing. Read the website below, it looks at the history of the bible as we know it today.
> 
> http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/



Right, I referred to the what Roman Catholics accepted from within the apocrypha. That's where any familiarity I had came, minimal. But the Greek Orthodox church also uses parts. However, the apocrypha is not part of the Hebrew Old Testament or the Greek New Testament. That's likely why most Protestants eventually rejected it.


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## topsyturvy86 (May 14, 2009)

divya said:


> Right, I referred to the what Roman Catholics accepted from within the apocrypha. That' where any familiarity I had came in with it. But the Greek Orthodox church also uses parts. However, the apocrypha is not part of the Hebrew Old Testament or the Greek New Testament. That's likely why most Protestants eventually rejected it.
> 
> Are you making an argument for use of the Apocrypha?


 
Nope. I'm under the impression u're looking to start an arguement with me about it for reason's im really struggling to understand. I read something I found interesting realating to the question and then all this. I probably should have said 'unknown source'.


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## divya (May 14, 2009)

topsyturvy86 said:


> I highly doubt a form of Christianity would be heavily based on old testament books that aren't even a part of the bible anymore. BUT ... u never know ...



A few do use it, but not many... 

Look at this blog...LOL! 
http://christianblogs.christianet.com/1119350300.htm


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## divya (May 14, 2009)

topsyturvy86 said:


> Nope. I'm under the impression u're looking to start an arguement with me about it for reason's im really struggling to understand. I read something I found interesting realating to the question and then all this. I probably should have said 'unknown source'.



No, not at all, which is why I removed that part of my post after reading your other reply. I was simply wondering why you used it, and if maybe you believed it.


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## topsyturvy86 (May 14, 2009)

divya said:


> A few do use it, but not many...
> 
> Look at this blog...LOL!
> http://christianblogs.christianet.com/1119350300.htm


 

I don't see the bl0g, just rand0m pe0ple's c0mments.



divya said:


> No, not at all, which is why I removed that part of my post after reading your other reply. I was simply wondering why you used it, and if maybe you believed it.


 
I might have reservati0ns ab0ut the ap0crypha because it was taken 0ut, but I believe the what happens after death bit (and im *n0t* g0ing t0 defend myself  ) The wh0le chapters bef0re and after are very inline with what revelati0ns says ab0ut the spirit/s0uls (cant remember which 0ne n0w) in waiting and 0ther parts. N0w, i'm n0t saying u have t0 believe it 0r anyb0dy f0r that matter, as I said, I f0und it interesting and th0ught id share as it was relevant t0 the questi0n.


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## divya (May 14, 2009)

topsyturvy86 said:


> I don't see the bl0g, just rand0m pe0ple's c0mments.



Oh, I think that's what they are calling a blog. 



> I might have reservati0ns ab0ut the ap0crypha because it was taken 0ut, but I believe the what happens after death bit (and im *n0t* g0ing t0 defend myself  ) The wh0le chapters bef0re and after are very inline with what revelati0ns says ab0ut the spirit/s0uls (cant remember which 0ne n0w) in waiting and 0ther parts. N0w, i'm n0t saying u have t0 believe it 0r anyb0dy f0r that matter, as I said, I f0und it interesting and th0ught id share as it was relevant t0 the questi0n.



Understand where you are coming from but was just wondering. It's interesting though and now I'd like to research if the immortal soul doctrine finds basis in that, outside of Greek philosophy etc.


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## topsyturvy86 (May 14, 2009)

divya said:


> Oh, I think that's what they are calling a blog.
> 
> 
> 
> Understand where you are coming from but was just wondering. It's interesting though and now I'd like to research if the immortal soul doctrine finds basis in that, outside of Greek philosophy etc.


 
C00l, let me kn0w what u c0me up with after ur research, w0uld be g00d t0 kn0w.


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## Laela (May 14, 2009)

divya said:


> But where are your Scriptures to support this?



To support what? My question..? Or the Jesus in hell part? I'm not clear here...



divya said:


> Jesus resurrects us. The sound of His voice will bring the righteous up from the grave (hell) at the second coming.
> 
> *
> 1 Thess 4:16 -17*_ For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:and the dead in Christ shall rise first:Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord_
> ...



I believe all those Scriptures you just quoted. The second passage is supporting my statement that the human body is gone, when we awaken from death (which really is a deep sleep), we awake with NEW BODIES. Where were our spirits?

Two fine examples in the Bible that references death as "sleep" are when Jesus himself spoke to the disciples about death, and they misunderstood him: *John 11:10-13*, and when Jesus told the crowd a ruler's dead daughter is alseep, but they laughed at him: *Matthew 9:23-25*




divya said:


> Hell is used 54 times in the Bible, generally to refer to the grave. So you are right...*there is no confusion. * However, it may require very in depth study.



Look at the word in almost every reference in the Bible and the majority of them point to an actual place:

Here are some fine examples:
Matthew 5:22 -- _'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell._

Matthew 5:29 - _If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell._ (This is Jesus talking to his disciples here.)

Matthew 10:28 - _Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell._ (Jesus admonishing his disciples)

2 Peter 2:4  -_For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;_




> *ETA:* The whole thread deals with this issue...but just to add..
> 
> Sheol translates to "the grave" in Hebrew.
> Hades translates to "the grave" in the Greek.



Hades is a euphemism for hell..that's where Jesus went to preach to those in the "lower regions" so they can be saved. Some dispute this and say hell and Hades two are different things. 

But the bottom line is when the Trumpet sounds, those who are dead will rise and get their final judgment, whether its heaven or hell:

Rev 20:14 says "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."


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## divya (May 14, 2009)

> I believe all those Scriptures you just quoted. The second passage is supporting my statement that the human body is gone, when we awaken from death (which really is a deep sleep), we awake with NEW BODIES. Where were our spirits?
> 
> Two fine examples in the Bible that references death as "sleep" are when Jesus himself spoke to the disciples about death, and they misunderstood him: John 11:10-13, and when Jesus told the crowd a ruler's dead daughter is alseep, but they laughed at him: Matthew 9:23-25



There are no inner spirits. Again, the translation of the word spirit in Hebrew is ruach. Ruach simply means *breath.* There is not idea of any free roaming spirit that exists as a separate being.  You are right! Death is like sleeping. That's it all.  

That would mean that you are immortal. Do you believe you are immortal right now?


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## divya (May 14, 2009)

Laela said:


> Look at the word in almost every reference in the Bible and the majority of them point to an actual place:
> 
> Here are some fine examples:
> Matthew 5:22 -- _'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell._
> ...



I agree with these verses...

*Matthew 5:22 *- _But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, *Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.*_

Absolutely, and the Bible tells us when the wicked will suffer hellfire. *Revelation 22:12*_And, behold, I come quickly; *and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.*_


*The lake of fire is in the future, not now. *

____________________________________________

“Tartarus” is used once, in *2 Peter 2:4*, and means “a place of darkness or restraint.” “Tartarus” is where Satan and his demons reside now. It isn’t a place of punishment or flames. http://www.thetruthabouthell.net/

________________________________________________


Regarding the soul idea as well...

*Matthew 10:28 *- _"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."_

In this verse we find these instructions: "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28). This verse is not understood by many because the word "soul" has lost its true meaning. Once that is restored, Jesus' statement becomes clear.

The English word "soul" is a translation of the Greek word psuche and from the Hebrew word nephesh. Both words mean "a living, breathing creature," referring to man or animal. "Soul" never means something immortal inside of man or animal. The words "immortal soul" appear nowhere in the Bible. In fact, the Bible shows that a soul can perish. Ezekiel twice writes, "The soul who sins shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4, 20). The word "soul" pertains to the life of any physical being or creature. Soul simply means "life."

The word translated "life" in Leviticus 17:11 comes from the same Hebrew word translated "soul." This verse can just as accurately be rendered, "For the soul of the flesh is in the blood." Jesus gave His "life" (translated from the same Greek word rendered "soul") as a ransom for us (Mark 10:45) by pouring out His soul—His life's blood—in payment for sin (Isaiah 53:12). Again, "soul" refers to the physical life of human beings or animals.

God can destroy the physical body and the soul (life). Matthew 10:28 tells us that no man can do both. Jesus says the same thing at another time: "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell [the Lake of Fire, the second or final death]; yes, I say to you, fear Him!" (Luke 12:4-5). Man can destroy a physical life, but that results only in the first death (Hebrews 9:27).

God, on the other hand, has the power both to impart life and to take it away, either temporarily or forever. He can resurrect those whom men have killed. He can also kill in a way no man can. If God judges a person to be unworthy of His Kingdom, that person will be thrown into the Lake of Fire to be utterly consumed. This is the second death, from which there can be no resurrection (Revelation 20:14-15; Malachi 4:1). The body and life (soul) of the unrepentant will be destroyed forever.

So, then, what Jesus says is that we should not shape our lives by any threat men may pose against us. We should live our lives in total obedience to God and His laws (see Acts 5:29). If men kill us, it will be only temporary. If God kills us, it will be forever. 

http://cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction...Jesus-Refer-an-Immortal-Soul-Matthew-1028.htm


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## divya (May 14, 2009)

Laela said:


> Hades is a euphemism for hell..that's where Jesus went to preach to those in the "lower regions" so they can be saved. Some dispute this and say hell and Hades two are different things.
> 
> But the bottom line is when the Trumpet sounds, those who are dead will rise and get their final judgment, whether its heaven or hell:
> 
> Rev 20:14 says "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."



Have you ever looked up the Greek translation of Hades? The New Testament was predominantly written in Greek. 

*Rev. 20:14 *_And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death._

The translation for hell here is _the grave_. So when all is said and done death and grave will be eternally destroyed. There will be no more of either. That's why in Rev. 21, the Scriptures go on to say...

*Rev. 21:1-4 *_And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away._


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## divya (May 14, 2009)

*The History of the Immortal-Soul Teaching*

Several times we have mentioned the words immortal soul, but *the phrase is found nowhere in the Bible.* Where did the idea of an immortal soul originate?

The concept of the soul’s supposed immortality was first taught in ancient Egypt and Babylon. "The belief that the soul continues in existence after the dissolution of the body is . . . speculation . . . nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture . . . The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended" (Jewish Encyclopedia, Funk and Wagnalls, New York, 1941, Vol. VI, "Immortality of the Soul," pp. 564, 566).

Plato, the Greek philosopher who lived 428-348 B.C., as a student of Socrates taught that the body and an "immortal soul" separate at death. The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia comments on ancient Israel’s view of the soul: ". . . We are influenced always more or less by the Greek, Platonic idea, that the body dies, yet the soul is immortal. Such an idea is utterly contrary to the Israelite consciousness, and it is nowhere found in the [Old Testament]" (Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, 1956, Vol. II, "Death," p. 812).

Early Christianity was influenced by Greek philosophies even as the gospel of Christ was preached to the Greek and Roman world. By A.D. 200 the doctrine of the immortality of the soul became a controversy in the established church.

The Evangelical Dictionary of Theology notes how Origen, an early and influential church theologian, was influenced by Greek thinkers: "Speculation about the soul in the subapostolic church was heavily influenced by Greek philosophy. This is seen in Origen’s acceptance of Plato’s doctrine of the preexistence of the soul as pure mind (nous) originally, which, by reason of its fall from God, cooled down to soul (psyche) when it lost its participation in the divine fire by looking earthward" (Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, 1992, p. 1037, "Soul").

Secular history reveals that the concept of the immortality of the soul is an ancient belief embraced by many pagan religions. But it is not a biblical, Hebrew or apostolic teaching.

http://www.ucg.org/booklets/AD/soulteaching.asp
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d060101.htm


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## Laela (May 14, 2009)

divya said:


> There are no inner spirits. Again, the translation of the word spirit in Hebrew is ruach. Ruach simply means *breath.* There is not idea of any free roaming spirit that exists as a separate being.  You are right! Death is like sleeping. That's it all.
> 
> That would mean that you are immortal. Do you believe you are immortal right now?



I am immortal now, because I am in my physical body. I'd said that earlier.

That breath you're referring to is LIFE.. from God himself.


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## divya (May 14, 2009)

Laela said:


> *I am immortal now*, because I am in my physical body. I'd said that earlier.
> 
> That breath you're referring to is LIFE.. from God himself.



*1 Timothy 6:14 -16 *- _That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our *Lord Jesus Christ*: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, *the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality*, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. _

God bless.


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## Laela (May 14, 2009)

divya said:


> Have you ever looked up the Greek translation of Hades? The New Testament was predominantly written in Greek.
> 
> *Rev. 20:14 *_And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death._
> 
> The translation for hell here is _the grave_. So when all is said and done death and grave will be eternally destroyed. There will be no more of either. That's why in Rev. 21, the Scriptures go on to say...



You'd stated earlier that the Lake of Fire will burn out after it consumes everyone and everything, now here, you agree that it's eternal (which is what the Scripture says). Which do you agree it is? A temporary state or an eternal one?


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## divya (May 14, 2009)

Laela said:


> You'd stated earlier that the Lake of Fire will burn out after it consumes everyone and everything, now here, you agree that it's eternal (which is what the Scripture says). Which do you agree it is? A temporary state or an eternal one?



What exactly are you referring to? Did you read the part of my post that you just quoted which states that hell there translates to the grave?  

Also, the *Scriptures* which I posted stated that the lake of fire will burn out.

I can explain further but I don't see exactly what you are saying...


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## blazingthru (May 20, 2009)

Laela said:


> It was a simple question...
> 
> I asked because you said you don't believe hell exists. Hell was created by God...In Rev 21, he speaks of this place that he created and who it was created for...Maybe I missed something in reading your posts that could better enlighten me on your position? I'm not in a position to judge, I'm trying to understand.


 
Yes you are correct I do not believe the hell you believe in exist. I believe that hell is just another word for the grave.  The lake of fire will be this earth. It is the grave for many.  A very large grave (Hell) because it will be the entire earth after the 1,000.00 years have passed.  To continue to believe that there is a hell in existence and that people are in it is wrong. 
*8*But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their *part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death  (death is the key- you will not burn forever, you will burn until you die, turn to ashe)*

I have learned that when you read the bible you may find a difficult passage, when you do you must begin your research as the bible harmonises, you should be able to find similiar text to explain the meaning. Some things are plain but most things God knows  we will struggle and that was his intent for you to search with your heart, study diligently the scriptures to find the answers. many just read it and go with it not thinking to look any futher so they believe things that make their life easier not thinking of the many examples that God has provided for us.  God did not just give us the bible to read about history no he gave it as our example of what not to do and what lead up to those people in the bibles punishments who did what they wanted to do.  For example. I mention jewerly, The bible doesn't say you can't wear it but you can read about all the things that happen to those who did and not at any time was it a pleasant thing and from those situations you can see that it does not please God. But because some don't see those exact words they feel they can.   This I learned God wink at some of the things humans did, he did not outright punish anyone and just because its in the bible doesnt' mean that God condone it he tells the full truth not just some things but all things. But no more.  We have the word of God there is no excuse for us to continue to live a life that is not pleasing to God when we can find out how to please God by reading and believing and researching and changing.


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## blazingthru (May 20, 2009)

Divya explained it all.


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