# Awww come on lets finish the discussion! It was civil!



## Kirei (Apr 6, 2009)

Style choice or not?


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## audacity. (Apr 6, 2009)

...


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## antisocial (Apr 6, 2009)

Since when does it matter that it was civil


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## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

It was pretty civil. But we can discuss it until the Lord comes back and we still won't have an answer. Relaxed heads will continue to be in denial and natural heads will continue to be self-*right*eous...that's the way of the world.


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## Kirei (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> It was pretty civil. But we can discuss it until the Lord comes back and we still won't have an answer. Relaxed heads will continue to be in denial and natural heads will continue to be self-*right*eous...that's the way of the world.


 
But it was a nice discussion, it wasn't just the usual crap, I was enjoying it.


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## Ramya (Apr 6, 2009)

lol @MSA  

The conversation was going well. Nobody's panties were in a bunch.


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## audacity. (Apr 6, 2009)

i just wanna know why no one quoted the OP...i came in late and don't even know what the discussion was about...i mean i get the jist of it but what did she actually say?

ah, well...until the next "off-limits" discussion...

maybe the OP requested the thread to be closed.


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## CandiceC (Apr 6, 2009)

I missed the other discussion, but relaxing hair is a styling choice. You can just cut the hair off if you don't want it on your head anymore.


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## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

LongHairDon'tCare said:


> i just wanna know why no one quoted the OP...i came in late and don't even know what the discussion was about...i mean i get the jist of it but what did she actually say?
> 
> ah, well...until the next "off-limits" discussion...
> 
> maybe the OP requested the thread to be closed.



OP did request it to be closed.

basically what she said was "people in the thread about the surgery to change eye color said that relaxing was the same as plastic surgery, skin bleaching etc. Do you think relaxing is a drastic alteration or just a style chioce?"


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## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

CandiceC said:


> I missed the other discussion, but relaxing hair is a styling choice. You can just cut the hair off if you don't want it on your head anymore.




What other "hairstyles" require you to cut your hair off in order to change the style?


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## antisocial (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> What other "hairstyles" require you to cut your hair off in order to change the style?


 
dreads


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## *Frisky* (Apr 6, 2009)

Don't fall for the okie doke ladies...people start threads like this knowing the outcome...please check your dates


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## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

anti-babymama said:


> dreads



You can actually comb out locs if you want to, but I see your point. 



marie170 said:


> Don't fall for the okie doke ladies...people start threads like this knowing the outcome...please check your dates



She was just continuing another thread that was started earlier.


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## *Frisky* (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> You can actually comb out locs if you want to.
> 
> 
> 
> *She was just continuing another thread that was started earlier*.


 

ok if you say so


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## heyfranz (Apr 6, 2009)

Style choice. Just like coloring.  I switch back and forth between natural and relaxed.  I just relaxed last April and i will bc again at some point. I've done it twice. It's just my nature.  Right now i've hennaed to cover a few grays and add thickness to my strands. At some point i'm sure i will happily be all gray.  Just depends on how i feel at a particular moment in my life.


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## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

marie170 said:


> ok if you say so




you didn't see the locked thread? (that was started by someone else)...and we really were in the middle of a discussion...I guess I don't see this as trollish behavior.


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## LBoogie (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> It was pretty civil. But we can discuss it until the Lord comes back and we still won't have an answer. Relaxed heads will continue to be in denial and natural heads will continue to be self-*right*eous...that's the way of the world.



Here's a question I didn't ask in the last one....well actually TWO QUESTIONS.

What about transitioners and stretchers?

Do they love or hate themselves?


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## CandiceC (Apr 6, 2009)

anti-babymama said:


> dreads



I agree. 

Also if you want to go from long hair to short, you have to cut your hair.


Does anyone here think a hair cut is a body alteration?


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## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

Lboogie said:


> Here's a question I didn't ask in the last one....well actually TWO QUESTIONS.
> 
> What about transitioners and stretchers?
> 
> Do they love or hate themselves?




What about them? Transitioners are neither exempt from self-hate or self-love, if those are the terms people want to use. There are numerous threads about people transitioning only because their hair or scalp couldn't handle relaxers. And there are people who are transitioning just to be a straight natural. There are transitioners who straighten their new growth every single week, never even giving their natural texture a chance. Then there are transitioners who actually love their natural hair. 

And from what I've seen, people stretch in order to make it easier for them to relax the next time and to give their relaxed hair a break from chemicals. In fact, is the stretchers who seem to make the most disparaging comments about natural hair.


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## antisocial (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> What about them? Transitioners are neither exempt from self-hate or self-love, if those are the terms people want to use. There are numerous threads about people transitioning only because their hair or scalp couldn't handle relaxers. And there are people who are transitioning just to be a straight natural. There are transitioners who straighten their new growth every single week, never even giving their natural texture a chance. Then there are transitioners who actually love their natural hair.
> 
> And from what I've seen, people stretch in order to make it easier for them to relax the next time and to give their relaxed hair a break from chemicals. In fact, is the stretchers who seem to make the most disparaging comments about natural hair.


 

 

Seriously, I really did not know that it was this deep.


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## rabs77 (Apr 6, 2009)

OK I'm confused. Did anyone say that those who relax hate themselves?


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## MizzBrown (Apr 6, 2009)

I never understood straight hair naturals either. I don't get it.


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## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

rabs77 said:


> OK I'm confused. Did anyone say that those who relax hate themselves?




Exactly. I don't get where that keeps coming from. As I said in the other thread people who relax don't automatically hate themselves just like people who are natural don't automatically love themselves.


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## Kirei (Apr 6, 2009)

marie170 said:


> ok if you say so


 
If you dont want to discuss then don't. I liked that particular discussion so I continued it. Period end of story.


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## LBoogie (Apr 6, 2009)

nevermind.


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## Xavier (Apr 6, 2009)

MizzBrown said:


> I never understood straight hair naturals either. I don't get it.


 

That would be a good spinoff topic: Why do naturals straighten?

You'll find that there is no one reason why some choose to straighten.


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## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

Lboogie said:


> deleted...



why you delete that?


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## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

Xavier said:


> That would be a good spinoff topic: Why do naturals straighten?
> 
> You'll find that there is no one reason why some choose to straighten.




It all comes back to the same thing


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## Tyra (Apr 6, 2009)

I have transitioned 3 different times. 
I didn't enjoy the extreme tenderness of my scalp.
I don't know if other women with natural hair have experienced this but I did and it was not fun.
I looooooved my natural hair it was really pretty. But the tenderness and the not being able to take care fo 4 and 5 inches of ng without tangling and damaging my hair was just too much. 
I didn't know about LHCF or any other hair boards when I was doing this. 
Yes now I know and I could probaly go natural again if I wanted to with much more ease but I figure at this stage why rock the boat?
I don't feel like my relaxed hair is any more beautiful than my natural hair. Honestly. But I don't want to go through it again. I couldn't let anyone put a comb to it without wanting to break someone's neck. 
I love me ladies. Really I do.
Like I said in the "other" thread call me lazy or whatever but that's as bad as it gets.
It had nothing to do with self-image.


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## Summer_Rain (Apr 6, 2009)

Considering that I was involuntarily relaxed at 8yrs old before I was old enough to know what self-hate (in whatever form) was - I can only say that I continue to relax out of habit. I could possibly LOVE the hair that grows naturally out of my scalp, but I don't have the patience or the resources to go through the process of finding out. And because finding out isn't that important to me - I just continue to do what has been done to me for the past 23 years....relax my new growth every 8-12 weeks.


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## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Apr 6, 2009)

Like I said in the last thread there will never be a clear defined answer on this regardless of what anyone says or thinks.  Everything is not what it seems.  

I can not judge a relaxed woman and say she clearly hates herself without knowing what her true reasons are for going that route.  Also, just because you are natural doesn't make you any better than that person that chooses to relax.  Naturals can operate in other forms of self hate that just aren't as apparent in an outwardly fashion.

Using myself as an example, i enjoyed my hair while natural but hated that fact that when I wanted to occasionally wear it straightened all of my hard work was for naught (do you remember those birthday pics i posted?  LOL).  Also all the time combing, moisturizing, battling at times with my hair just to make a ponytail was ridiculous at times.  I figured texlaxing was the way to go.  Now, as you can see in my sig i'm considering dropping the chemicals.  I don't know if i will or won't but it's been heavy on my mind.  Does this mean that i hated myself before and now that i'm possibly transitioning i'm starting to love myself again?  I don't think so.


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## *Frisky* (Apr 6, 2009)

Liyah said:


> If you dont want to discuss then don't. I liked that particular discussion so I continued it. Period end of story.


 

You don't have to get attitudinal with me. I made a statement and that was it. You seem to always want things to go in your favor and if they don't, then you have issues...chill and discuss this ignorant topic if you want..makes me none.


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## tocktick (Apr 6, 2009)

As someone said in the last thread, being natural doesn't automatically mean you don't have issue with hair anyway. There have been countless threads here with women wanting to relax again; in most cases, their reasons are either paper thin or they're upfront about going through some kind of crisis where they feel ugly (imo). Thus, my point is that whilst some may think relaxed hair is potentially indicative of being self-hating in some instances, being natural doesn't automatically mean you're not. 

There is no clear cut answer regarding if someone is self-hating or not due to their hair choices. But on a wider level, the assumption that relaxing is wide-spread due to deeper issues (i.e - based on more than style) can be made based on our history, the beauty standard, common views on natural/nappy hair, and the women out in droves relaxing their hair globally. JMHO. This is a complex and multi-layered issue.


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## sunshinelady (Apr 6, 2009)

Here's the difference, a relaxer can hurt you, likely will burn you.  A curly perm does not.


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## *~Mocha~* (Apr 6, 2009)

I dont understand how getting a relaxer equate to self hate. I have read so many articles, boards, youtube videos about black women and self hate because they relax their hair. 

Other races do chemically process their hair but doesnt get looked as self hating. Caucasians get curly perms, as well other types of permanet hair straightening.
If you go to the sephora website more than half of the reviews on phyto is from caucasians and other races not just blacks. But we are looked at as self hating. I love myself, I love being black, I relax my hair as a style choice. Just like how Becky dye her hair or Molly straightened her curly hair or whatever.. Im so tired of black woman self hate topics. I mean seriously if we hated being black straightening our hair will not void the fact we still got black skin.


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## Kirei (Apr 6, 2009)

marie170 said:


> You don't have to get attitudinal with me. I made a statement and that was it. You seem to always want things to go in your favor and if they don't, then you have issues...chill and discuss this ignorant topic if you want..makes me none.


 
perplexed If it makes you none then have a nice day and enjoy another topic.

And I have issues? You can PM me if you want to get something off your chest.


.....now back to reading ignorant topic.....


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## audacity. (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> OP did request it to be closed.
> 
> basically what she said was "people in the thread about the surgery to change eye color said that relaxing was the same as plastic surgery, skin bleaching etc. Do you think relaxing is a drastic alteration or just a style chioce?"


 
thanks, msa!

relaxing your hair IS an altercation but i look at relaxing as more of an "enhancement" like make-up or colored contacts...plastic surgery, skin bleaching, etc is permanent.  so i suppose it's a "style choice"

relaxins is not permanent because you can cut it out.  yes it has permanently altered your hair, but it doesn't have to stay that way like the man who got new eyes or bleaching your skin...

did i make sense?


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## CandiceC (Apr 6, 2009)

SummerRain said:


> Considering that I was involuntarily relaxed at 8yrs old before I was old enough to know what self-hate (in whatever form) was - *I can only say that I continue to relax out of habit. I could possibly LOVE the hair that grows naturally out of my scalp, but I don't have the patience or the resources to go through the process of finding out. *And because finding out isn't that important to me - I just continue to do what has been done to me for the past 23 years....relax my new growth every 8-12 weeks.



This is me all the way. I think about what it would be like to be natural, but I don't have the patience to transition.

I'm not feeling the whole big chop thing cause I don't want my hair short whether it's relaxed or natural.

If I could have the current hair on my head turn natural at the snap of a finger, I'd try it for sure.


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## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

I just want to make myself clear.

IMO, self-hate is a psychological issue that can be manifested in different ways. But, I do not believe that relaxing is indicative of self-hate. "Self-hate" is too serious of an issue to just keep throwing it out there like that.

I do believe that relaxing shows that the person does not love their natural hair, they may like it and they may have though it was fun for a while or that it was a nice style change, but they do not love it. If someone wants to extend that to they don't love themselves, fine, but that's not how I feel.

If you want to stone me for making assumptions about how other people feel about their hair, then fine. This is just my opinion, based on people's actions and the words that accompany those actions.


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## CandiceC (Apr 6, 2009)

marie170 said:


> You don't have to get attitudinal with me. I made a statement and that was it. You seem to always want things to go in your favor and if they don't, then you have issues...chill and discuss this ignorant topic if you want..makes me none.



What do you mean by ignorant topic?


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## Southernbella. (Apr 6, 2009)

Xavier said:


> That would be a good spinoff topic: Why do naturals straighten?
> 
> You'll find that there is no one reason why some choose to straighten.


 
I straighten sometimes because it's one of my options. When I'm over it, I wash it out.


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## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

LongHairDon'tCare said:


> thanks, msa!
> 
> relaxing your hair IS an altercation but i look at *relaxing as more of an "enhancement" like make-up or colored contacts*...plastic surgery, skin bleaching, etc is permanent.  so i suppose it's a "style choice"
> 
> ...




Yup you make complete sense. I don't agree, but I understand.

I have a problem with relaxing being considered an enhancement. It feeds into the idea that relaxed hair makes people more beautiful.


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## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> I just want to make myself clear.
> 
> IMO, self-hate is a psychological issue that can be manifested in different ways. But, I do not believe that relaxing is indicative of self-hate. "Self-hate" is too serious of an issue to just keep throwing it out there like that.
> 
> ...


 
MSA i disagree 1000% on this.  Or at least, not with everybody.


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## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> MSA i disagree 1000% on this.  Or at least, not with everybody.



99% of people disagree with it and believe me, I understand and don't have a problem with it. Everyone has different views.


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## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Apr 6, 2009)

What a boring world this would be if everyone conformed to the standard of how one is "supposed" to look, act, speak, in regards to their ethnic makeup.


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## Carrie A (Apr 6, 2009)

Relaxing is a permanent alteration that straightens hair.  The hair is then styled so the relaxer it's self is not a style but a modification.


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## Qualitee (Apr 6, 2009)

I loved my natural and I love relaxed hair. I relaxed my hair because I want to wear straight styles most of the time.


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## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Apr 6, 2009)

Why can't the sentiment be that some women of color relax because they do not like nappy hair/themselves and others do it for other reasons that don't involve the former?  I just don't get it....


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## audacity. (Apr 6, 2009)

CandiceC said:


> What do you mean by ignorant topic?


 
don't think she'll be back in this thread but the topic is ignorant in the sense that 

what difference does it make?  

for someone to make assumptions about a person based on whether or not she relaxes her hair is ignorant to me.

if a person wears make-up does she hate the way she looks?  if a person always wears heels does she hate her height?  if a person wears a push-up bra does she hate her breast size?  maybe she does, maybe she doesn't but it's ridiculous to draw a conclusion one way or another just simply based on her "style choice"


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## Summer_Rain (Apr 6, 2009)

CandiceC said:


> This is me all the way. I think about what it would be like to be natural, but I don't have the patience to transition.
> 
> I'm not feeling the whole big chop thing cause I don't want my hair short whether it's relaxed or natural.
> 
> *If I could have the current hair on my head turn natural at the snap of a finger, I'd try it for sure.*


 
Same here. If I had came across this forum in college - I'd probably be rocking my natural goodness right now. But a las, I found this place about 10yrs too late. I think that force of habit is probably a more likely culprit than style choices or "hatred" of natural. In truth - I'd likely have tons more options with my natural hair. I could rock an afro, sport a coily-do, get a blow job and be silky straight. As it is now, to do anything with texture I have to use heat and go thru a 2hr beautification process


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## jennboo (Apr 6, 2009)

Lawd...

   I just want to copy and paste my previous responses to these topics AND bump up my "is relaxing tantamount to skin bleaching" thread.


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## Summer_Rain (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> I just want to make myself clear.
> 
> IMO, self-hate is a psychological issue that can be manifested in different ways. But, I do not believe that relaxing is indicative of self-hate. "Self-hate" is too serious of an issue to just keep throwing it out there like that.
> 
> ...


 

How could a person hate something they never knew?


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## *Frisky* (Apr 6, 2009)

CandiceC said:


> What do you mean by ignorant topic?


 
I call it ignorant because topics like these always bring up ill feelings for whatever reason but if it can be discussed without all that then it's cool.


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## audacity. (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> Yup you make complete sense. I don't agree, but I understand.
> 
> I have a problem with relaxing being considered an enhancement. It feeds into the idea that relaxed hair makes people more beautiful.


 
i can see that.  but maybe for some they DO feel more beautiful with relaxed/straight hair.

to each her own.  

i relax because i want to and i like it.  and (not directed toward you but the topic in general) i can care less what people think of me as a result of it.


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## *Frisky* (Apr 6, 2009)

Liyah said:


> perplexed If it makes you none then have a nice day and enjoy another topic.
> 
> And I have issues? You can PM me if you want to get something off your chest.
> 
> ...


 

No need for a pm...enjoy


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## audacity. (Apr 6, 2009)

SummerRain said:


> How could a person hate something they never knew?


 
can i thank you 1,000,000,000 times for this statement?


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## Farida (Apr 6, 2009)

I only once saw a website of Asian folk getting "nappy perms" which is really the best i can describe it as. Basically trying to get hair like black people. That is the only time I have ever seen that.

A lot of people have hair issues...I relaxed my hair at 14, sadly because I was raised with the mistaken notion that I had to keep my hair braided or loose it, and I was tired of getting braided every dang week. I really did. So I relaxed my hair so I could wear it out. But relaxer broke my hair, so I am transitioning.

The reason I know people have issues, is relaxers are not for everyone. I see people who have terrible hair, even after trying all sorts of regimens...not to mention people who can't even afford to maintain relaxed hair...but they'd rather keep jacked up relaxers than God forbid someone sees their natural hair.

I see people wear TERRIBLE weaves, rather than God forbid someone sees your hair...

And as for maintenance...I wash and go with my natural hair, it is a lot easier than relaxed hair.

Basically, IMO, when people say natural hair is too much maintenance = natural hair takes to much effort to make it LOOK like long straight, hair.


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## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

SummerRain said:


> How could a person hate something they never knew?




I never said they hated it, I said they do not love it. There's a difference.

And like I said in the other thread, I recognize there is can be a difference between someone who has been relaxed their whole lives and someone who was relaxed/BC'd/relaxed again.

 But, unless someone relaxes every 4 weeks, they've dealt with a bit of natural hair. I mean how many folks complain on the hairboard every day about their 8 weeks post new growth being so difficult? They've already formed an opinion about their natural hair so they know it a  little bit.


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## BKVincy (Apr 6, 2009)

I think were putting to much blame on ourselves and not enough blame on the society that brainwashes us to think that thats what we are suppose to do.

Throwing the whole "self hate" judgement around is just a put down to others and does not and will not result with a positive comeback


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## CandiceC (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> I just want to make myself clear.
> 
> IMO, self-hate is a psychological issue that can be manifested in different ways. But, I do not believe that relaxing is indicative of self-hate. "Self-hate" is too serious of an issue to just keep throwing it out there like that.
> 
> ...



What if you love certain things about your natural hair and also certain about your hair when its relaxed? Can you love both and merely choose one over the other depending on your mood. Hmm. :scratchch Lol.

Yeah. I think "self-hate" are too strong for a generalization. 


Rambling...
What if you're bald by choice? Does that mean you don't love your natural hair? What if you love being bald more?


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## CandiceC (Apr 6, 2009)

marie170 said:


> I call it ignorant because topics like these always bring up ill feelings for whatever reason but if it can be discussed without all that then it's cool.



Gotcha. Thanks.


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## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Apr 6, 2009)

vivmaiko said:


> I only once saw a website of Asian folk getting "nappy perms" which is really the best i can describe it as. Basically trying to get hair like black people. That is the only time I have ever seen that.
> 
> A lot of people have hair issues...I relaxed my hair at 14, sadly because I was raised with the mistaken notion that I had to keep my hair braided or loose it, and I was tired of getting braided every dang week. I really did. So I relaxed my hair so I could wear it out. But relaxer broke my hair, so I am transitioning.
> 
> ...


 
Let's ask Mwedzi that question or any other natural with the the thickest and kinkiest of hair and see if they are in agreement...


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## Carrie A (Apr 6, 2009)

LongHairDon'tCare said:


> if a person wears make-up does she hate the way she looks? if a person always wears heels does she hate her height? if a person wears a push-up bra does she hate her breast size? maybe she does, maybe she doesn't but it's ridiculous to draw a conclusion one way or another just simply based on her "style choice"


 
Not necessarily but I'm sure she thinks she looks better by making those choices.  There is a desire to project a certain "image" with all beauty choices ie youth. At the end of the day or within minutes all of those choices can be reversed.  I wonder what we are trying to project by wearing straight hair all the time.  It's just something I think about.


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## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

LongHairDon'tCare said:


> i can see that.  but maybe for some they *DO feel more beautiful with relaxed/straight hair.*
> 
> to each her own.
> 
> i relax because i want to and i like it.  and (not directed toward you but the topic in general) i can care less what people think of me as a result of it.



I think that's sad. 



vivmaiko said:


> Basically, IMO, when people say natural hair is too much maintenance = natural hair takes to much effort to make it LOOK like long straight, hair.



Tell the truth!

The only reason people have such a hard time with maintenance is because they're trying to force their hair to do things it doesn't do naturally.


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## audacity. (Apr 6, 2009)

Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> Why can't the sentiment be that some women of color relax because they do not like nappy hair/themselves and others do it for other reasons that don't involve the former? I just don't get it....



i feel you! but we know

up 'round hee-yah there is NEVER any middle ground.

if you relax, it is SOME form of self-hatred period

if you don't you're better than those who do

that's it.  no middle ground


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## hairsothick (Apr 6, 2009)

When I was a teenager, I relaxed because that's all I knew.

Now I relax because I feel like it.  I'm on a 6 month stretch right now and if I do well I may continue on and transition.

I will admit that part of my decision to continue relaxing is because I don't know what my hair would look like as a natural or if I would like how it looked on me, but we will see.

And to be 100 percent honest, if I was a curly head (3a/b) I would have been natural a long time ago.  Heck, my mother probably would have never relaxed my hair in the first place.

Just keeping it real.

First step to fixing a problem is admitting that there is one so...


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## audacity. (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> I think that's sad.


 
it is sad but it's true

like i said

to each her own


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## Southernbella. (Apr 6, 2009)

vivmaiko said:


> I only once saw a website of Asian folk getting "nappy perms" which is really the best i can describe it as. Basically trying to get hair like black people. That is the only time I have ever seen that.
> 
> A lot of people have hair issues...I relaxed my hair at 14, sadly because I was raised with the mistaken notion that I had to keep my hair braided or loose it, and I was tired of getting braided every dang week. I really did. So I relaxed my hair so I could wear it out. But relaxer broke my hair, so I am transitioning.
> 
> ...


 
I think you hit the nail on the head, especially the bolded.

I would also add relaxing children under 12 years old to that list. 

I'm more inclined to think that relaxers are simply a choice for women like those of us here on LHCF, because healthy hair is desireable, regardless of texture. But when women would rather have 2 inches of chewed up hair and no edges than let anyone see their naps, I think it goes beyond style choice.

I also agree that hate is too strong a word for what we're discussing.


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## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Apr 6, 2009)

I wonder to myself how much texture plays into all of these opinions spouted as "truths"....


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## rabs77 (Apr 6, 2009)

Southernbella. said:


> I straighten sometimes because it's one of my options. When I'm over it, I wash it out.



Exactly!
As a natural, I can CHOOSE to wear MY hair naturally curly or straight.


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## Carrie A (Apr 6, 2009)

Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> I wonder to myself how much texture plays into all of these opinions spouted as "truths"....


 
Could you expound on that point please?


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## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Apr 6, 2009)

rabs77 said:


> Exactly!
> As a natural, I can CHOOSE to wear MY hair naturally curly or straight.


 
Just so you know, that means that you hate yourself one day and love yourself the next


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## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

CandiceC said:


> What if you love certain things about your natural hair and also certain about your hair when its relaxed? Can you love both and merely choose one over the other depending on your mood. Hmm. :scratchch Lol.



Having a relaxer doesn't allow you choose one or the other depending on your mood. You can't go from SL relaxed hair to SL natural hair in a day. You can go from SL pressed hair to SL natural hair in a matter of minutes. I don't agree with straightening either, but I recognize there's a difference.

What I was trying to say is that if a person really loves their natural hair, then they wouldn't relax.


----------



## Kirei (Apr 6, 2009)

To me and from experiences, it is not just a style. I am natural now but was relaxed when I was about 4, I have been natural once after that but it was to grow my hair out and I wore braids the whole time.

Now, we have to remember that with all things there are exceptions to the rules. If you are a woman who relaxed after being natural and have no problem with your natural hair, YOU my friend are an exception to the rule.

The rule is, black women would rather be bald with dry, thin, flaky hair then to actually let their hair grow out and be natural. I have seen old ladies with BIG bakd spots in their hair, still going to the beauty salon to get that relaxer, why? They obviously think the HAM they have on their head is better than a nice lush afro, they are too scared to even try.

You have to admit there is a problem when women are walking around with busted weaves (yall know the matted kind), bald spots, thin air, no edges, dandruff flaky scalp but when asked if they have ever thought of going natural, they just about die at the thought! So, you mean your HAM on the top of your head is better than what your hair would look like natural? 

Also in regards to LHCF and black women not having issues, it is like Bint said the *infamous amnesia* people have with all these types of threads.


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## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Apr 6, 2009)

Carrie A said:


> Could you expound on that point please?


 

Well, if you are a 1a - 3c would your opinions (pro or against) be different than someone who is 4z?


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## audacity. (Apr 6, 2009)

Carrie A said:


> Not necessarily but I'm sure she thinks she looks better by making those choices. There is a desire to project a certain "image" with all beauty choices ie youth. At the end of the day or within minutes all of those choices can be reversed. *I wonder what we are trying to project by wearing straight hair all the time.* It's just something I think about.


 
is there something wrong with a woman wanting to look good?

if she feels more beautiful with her relaxed hair, push-up bra, high heels and face full of make up, what's wrong with that?  does that mean she doesn't like herself?  not necessarily (sp).

@ the bolded: does this statement include naturals who only wear their hair straight?


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## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

LongHairDon'tCare said:


> i feel you! but we know
> 
> up 'round hee-yah there is NEVER any middle ground.
> 
> ...




Who is saying this stuff?

Let me make it clear again just in case people are getting the wrong idea.

*I do not think that self-hate applies to this conversation at all. It is too serious an issue for a hair debate.

I do not think those who do not relax are better than those who do.*


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## janiebaby (Apr 6, 2009)

I've transitioned to natural and like someone else said, my scalp is starting to get more and more sensitive. I see it as a good thing. Pain signals that something is wrong and when I do feel pain it's because the dang on shampoo girl is scratching my scalp. 

I love myself but I *wasn't* thinking about self-love when I decided to go natural. I was thinking about how I didn't want to overprocess it anymore, I get my hair colored because I have alot of gray and I also went to Dominicans who use alot of heat and all of this was just too much for my hair. I have thick hair that looked bone straight and lifeless. Plus, after 2 weeks my hair would start looking raggedy again anyway because my hair grows fast and my new growth is some tough stuff. 

I figured if I was having problems both ways I'd might as well take the safer route and avoid overprocessing. And, I know this is long but, I noticed that as you get older your hair tends to thin out (I've noticed my grandmothers don't need relaxers now) and I wanted a thicker start.


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## SvelteVelvet (Apr 6, 2009)

It's quite erroneous to rate the level of love or hate a person has for themselves, based on what you love or hate for yourself. 

Here's my question: Why would the hairstyle choices of another person whose head is attached the THEIR bodies be sooooo revelant to ANYONE else but them?

This discussion reminds me of School Daze..


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## Southernbella. (Apr 6, 2009)

Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> Let's ask Mwedzi that question or any other natural with the the thickest and kinkiest of hair and see if they are in agreement...


 
Extremely thick head here, and yes, my natural hair requires maintenence. But so did my relaxed hair. I couldn't blowdry my relaxed hair because it would cause breakage, so I had to rollerset, and rollersetting was hell on earth. I had to relax in sections because it was too thick to try to do it all in one shot. Relax days were very long and tiring. My texlaxed hair was even worse, because it poofed up when straight and I had to detangle very carefully because it was weaker due to the relaxer.

So for me, my hair requires maintenence no matter what state it's in.


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## jennboo (Apr 6, 2009)

SummerRain said:


> How could a person hate something they never knew?


 
 People KNOW, or are aware of, the stigma's associated with natural hair. One does not need to actually possess a specific trait, characteristic, or quality to know that it is deemed undesirable.


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## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

LongHairDon'tCare said:


> is there something wrong with a woman wanting to look good?
> 
> if she feels more beautiful with her relaxed hair, push-up bra, high heels and face full of make up, what's wrong with that?  does that mean she doesn't like herself?  not necessarily (sp).
> *
> @ the bolded: does this statement include naturals who only wear their hair straight?*



I include naturals who only wear their hair straight, as well as naturals who only wear weaves. But that's just me.


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## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Apr 6, 2009)

When the same woman that is relaxing her hair is also bleaching her skin, getting lipo'd, a nose job and wearing contacts we can then continue the discussion.

Oh wait....there is Lil Kim right?


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## BKVincy (Apr 6, 2009)

I also believe that there is such a thin line between hate well im not using that word anymore dislike and ignorance 

I think many people including myself will dislike or not know how to adjust to something they just dont understand and not only dont they understand it for what ever reason do not or can not or just simply might not have the time to do the research.That doesnt equate to hate... only ignorance (not ignorance in a bad way just honestly not knowing)


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## Kirei (Apr 6, 2009)

I honestly think the real question is:

Why do so many black women walk around with damaged hair and bald spots from relaxers but continue to relax?
I seems like people actually don't remember that they actually have another type of hair that grows out of their head, they have another option to relaxing.


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## Summer_Rain (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> I never said they hated it, I said they do not love it. There's a difference.
> 
> And like I said in the other thread, I recognize there is can be a difference between someone who has been relaxed their whole lives and someone who was relaxed/BC'd/relaxed again.
> 
> But, unless someone relaxes every 4 weeks, they've dealt with a bit of natural hair. I mean how many folks complain on the hairboard every day about their 8 weeks post new growth being so difficult? They've already formed an opinion about their natural hair so they know it a little bit.


 
hate/love, something in the middle - my question still, how can anyone have an appreciation, love, fondness, for something they've never known? Now me personally - I don't count the hair 9 or so weeks out of my scalp as a true representation of what my full, natural & maintained hair would be like.

But if you acknowledge the POV of someone relaxed their entire lives then thats cool. IMHO, I think most black women probably fall into that category.


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## hairsothick (Apr 6, 2009)

Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> Well, if you are a 1a - 3c would your opinions (pro or against) be different than someone who is 4z?



Honestly I don't even consider the opinions of people with a different hair type than mine to be relevant to me as far as this topic is concerned.  Not saying it's right, but hey...


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## Xavier (Apr 6, 2009)

Are naturals who constantly flat iron and press suffering from the same self hate issues?


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## Carrie A (Apr 6, 2009)

LongHairDon'tCare said:


> is there something wrong with a woman wanting to look good?
> 
> if she feels more beautiful with her relaxed hair, push-up bra, high heels and face full of make up, what's wrong with that? does that mean she doesn't like herself? not necessarily (sp).
> 
> @ the bolded: does this statement include naturals who only wear their hair straight?


 
No not at all.  I'm all for make-up, bras that fit with properly placed bra straps, and heels in moderation.  I still feel there is a projection of an idea and I like to think about what that might be.....for myself as well.  

Yes to the bolded.
And I'm not talking about not liking yourself persay.  I'm just questioning what influences our decisions about beauty.

(of course it doesn't help that I have a roller set in my avatar.)


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## audacity. (Apr 6, 2009)

Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> When the same woman that is relaxing her hair is also bleaching her skin, getting lipo'd, a nose job and wearing contacts we can then continue the discussion.
> 
> Oh wait....there is Lil Kim right?


 
and i WOULD say that she doesn't like herself very much...

BUT this conversation has nothing to do with loving or hating oneself 

it about whether or not relaxing is the same as bleaching your skin, plastic surgery, etc...

and NO it isn't.  there are more reasons why it's NOT than why it is...


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## Southernbella. (Apr 6, 2009)

I think we are all saying the same things here:

Some women relax their hair because it's just a style choice.

Some women relax their hair because they don't know anything about natural hair or that they even have that option.

Some women relax their hair because they don't like natural hair and would rather die before they let someone see a single nap spring forth from their scalp.


When we have hese discussions, we are not talking about the women who relax as a style choice. Everyone in these threads has admitted that some women who relax have issues, so why can't we just discuss them and leave all the other stuff out of it?


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## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Apr 6, 2009)

Xavier said:


> Are naturals who constantly flat iron and press suffering from the same self hate issues?


 

Yes, all of you guys are delusional as well


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## Summer_Rain (Apr 6, 2009)

jennboo said:


> People KNOW, or are aware of, the stigma's associated with natural hair. One does not need to actually possess a specific trait, characteristic, or quality to know that it is deemed undesirable.


 
Well not everyone is _driven _by said stigma. That's my point.


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## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Apr 6, 2009)

Southernbella. said:


> I think we are all saying the same things here:
> 
> Some women relax their hair because it's just a style choice.
> 
> ...


 
We can't leave out those women because people here generalize too much.


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## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

SummerRain said:


> hate/love, something in the middle - my question still, *how can anyone have an appreciation, love, fondness, for something they've never known?* Now me personally - I don't count the hair 9 or so weeks out of my scalp as a true representation of what my full, natural & maintained hair would be like.
> 
> But if you acknowledge the POV of someone relaxed their entire lives then thats cool. IMHO, I think most black women probably fall into that category.



As far as the bolded, how can someone have such a dislike for something they've never known? Women on this board denigrate their new growth every single day, but no one bats an eye. If they know it well enough to be negative about it, then surely it's possible for them to form some positive opinions as well. They just choose not to because they've already accepted the idea that natural hair is "bad, hard to work with, nappy, etc" and approach dealing with it with that perspective.



hairsothick said:


> Honestly I don't even consider the opinions of people with a different hair type than mine to be relevant to me as far as this topic is concerned.  Not saying it's right, but hey...



I can understand that. It's kind of like how people discount the opinons of naturals who used to relax.


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## Bosslady1 (Apr 6, 2009)

The other thread about hairstyle options got locked?! How dreadful...


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## audacity. (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> I include naturals who only wear their hair straight, as well as naturals who only wear weaves. But that's just me.


 
so what if, on the other hand, a relaxed head only wore her hair in textured styles?


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## Summer_Rain (Apr 6, 2009)

Southernbella. said:


> When we have hese discussions, we are not talking about the women who relax as a style choice. *Everyone in these threads has admitted that some women who relax have issues, so why can't we just discuss them and leave all the other stuff out of it?*


 
Because then the conversation would be over - it 1(page)and done! 

White is right
Mainstream media
Euro standards of beauty
Hip Hop
blah blah blah

Thread over!


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## basketballbabe03 (Apr 6, 2009)

sunshinelady said:


> Here's the difference, a relaxer can hurt you, likely will burn you.  A curly perm does not.



This is not true.  I curly perm is a chemical process which can also do damage.



msa said:


> I just want to make myself clear.
> 
> IMO, self-hate is a psychological issue that can be manifested in different ways. But, I do not believe that relaxing is indicative of self-hate. "Self-hate" is too serious of an issue to just keep throwing it out there like that.
> 
> ...



I do agree with this somewhat. I'm not saying that everyone who relaxes hates their hair but think about the times you hear someone say: "Girl, I gotta do something about this new growth." or the people that have to have their hair bone straight all the time?   



SummerRain said:


> How could a person hate something they never knew?



Very, very true.



msa said:


> But, unless someone relaxes every 4 weeks, they've dealt with a bit of natural hair.* I mean how many folks complain on the hairboard every day about their 8 weeks post new growth being so difficult? They've already formed an opinion about their natural hair so they know it a  little *bit.



This could be a different issue because of having two completely different textures in your head.  From my experience, it can be difficult to deal with the two textures, so the people that are posting might be talking about the two textures and not the new growth.  For me, when I was in transition, it was much harder for me to deal with then having my hair 100 percent relaxed or 100 percent natural.


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## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

Xavier said:


> Are naturals who constantly flat iron and press suffering from the same self hate issues?




Can people please stop using the term self-hate?

And, yes, naturals who constantly straighten or wear weaves are suffering from the same thing IMO. They do not love their natural hair.


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## LunadeMiel (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> I think that's sad.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 

When I relaxed it was because people made me feel that my natural hair was unacceptable. When I decided to go natural some people still made me feel this way. IMO relaxing is not a style choice. To some it's unthinkable.  

Honestly, when I hear people say that natural hair is hard to take care of I just erplexed and . I mean what's easier than not having to apply a caustic chemical to hair/scalp every few weeks.... Cutting off my relaxed hair was the best thing that I could have done for myself physically and mentally. Yes, it required some reverse engineering but I believe that I'm a better person for it...


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## tocktick (Apr 6, 2009)

SummerRain said:


> How could a person hate something they never knew?




* Parents, friends etc around them telling them natural hair is ugly etc. 
* Bad touch up experiences (I can remember a few - like being told my hair was "tough" because I'd been too lng without a relaxer) 
* Possibly seeing girls with natural hair being treated in a negative way. Where I grew up, many girls with twas were clowned. I'm sure the shortness was an added factor though.

I think a lot of it is more so fear, as opposed to hate. Of course, I do agree that there are women who dont hate their natural hair even if they've never experienced it. It differ from person to person but I don't think you need to have experienced something directly in order to hate, dislike or fear it.


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## MizzBrown (Apr 6, 2009)

Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> Well, if you are a 1a - 3c would your opinions (pro or against) be different than someone who is 4z?


 
Call me judgemental but i give more credit to folks who transition and go natural with Type 4 hair than Type 1-3.

There is a HUGE difference IMO.

I've realized that i can't transition. Its too much for me and i just have to be brave one day and chop it all off and deal with a tiny fro rather than try to do a long term transition and get so frustrated.

I think many women would like to explore their natural hair but are scared of the length as well. 

Remember all those threads of folks BC'ing and then crying bloody mary because they've never seen their hair that short?


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## CandiceC (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> Having a relaxer doesn't allow you choose one or the other depending on your mood. You can't go from SL relaxed hair to SL natural hair in a day. You can go from SL pressed hair to SL natural hair in a matter of minutes. I don't agree with straightening either, but I recognize there's a difference.
> 
> What I was trying to say is that if a person really loves their natural hair, then they wouldn't relax.



I was thinking about a longer mood. Like wearing your hair relaxed for awhile and then switching it up the next year and being natural. And vice versa.


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## hairsothick (Apr 6, 2009)

MizzBrown said:


> Call me judgemental but i give more credit to folks who transition and go natural with Type 4 hair than Type 1-3.
> 
> There is a HUGE difference IMO.



There's a huge difference to me too.


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## Carrie A (Apr 6, 2009)

SummerRain said:


> How could a person hate something they never knew?


 
One of very close girlfriends was relaxed at 3 years old.  She has never seen her natural hair.  After I did my BC she said well more power to you but you will NEVA see me without a perm up in here.  Oh no. That's not the kid.  erplexed


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## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

LongHairDon'tCare said:


> so what if, on the other hand, a relaxed head only wore her hair in textured styles?



She's still relaxed.



basketballbabe03 said:


> This could be a different issue because of having two completely different textures in your head.  From my experience, it can be difficult to deal with the two textures, so the people that are posting might be talking about the two textures and not the new growth.  For me, when I was in transition, it was much harder for me to deal with then having my hair 100 percent relaxed or 100 percent natural.



I agree that sometimes it's about the two textures. But most of the time it's about "nappy newgrowth", "my new growth dreads up...", "who here hates dealing with their new growth", "I can't wait to relax because I can't stand my new growth", "How can I make my new growth straighter", "straightening makes my new growth easier to deal with"...I mean really...it's not just about the two textures, it's about changing what grows out of their scalp...


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## Qualitee (Apr 6, 2009)

Carrie A said:


> One of very close girlfriends was relaxed at 3 years old. She has never seen her natural hair. After I did my BC she said well more power to you but you will NEVA see me without a perm up in here. Oh no. That's not the kid. erplexed


 3! why would someone relax a child's hair at 3!


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## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Apr 6, 2009)

MizzBrown said:


> Call me judgemental but i give more credit to folks who transition and go natural with Type 4 hair than Type 1-3.
> 
> There is a HUGE difference IMO.
> 
> ...


 

According to some of the looser textured women there really is no difference.

I do agree about that length concern as well.  Wooboo, some of us won't look good with nugget heads (me definitely included lol)


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## CandiceC (Apr 6, 2009)

MizzBrown said:


> Call me judgemental but i give more credit to folks who transition and go natural with Type 4 hair than Type 1-3.
> 
> There is a HUGE difference IMO.
> 
> ...



Ding ding ding. I couldn't transition unless I was in braids. There's too much of a difference between my natural and relaxed hair for any style to make any sense after 16 weeks or so. Lol. Maybe I could get by on braid outs. But still 16 weeks isn't going to give me the length I'd want to start off natural if I were to chop.


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## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

MizzBrown said:


> Call me judgemental but i give more credit to folks who transition and go natural with Type 4 hair than Type 1-3.
> 
> There is a HUGE difference IMO.
> 
> ...


'

What about people who have never been relaxed and didn't have to transition or BC? 



CandiceC said:


> I was thinking about a longer mood. Like wearing your hair relaxed for awhile and then switching it up the next year and being natural. And vice versa.



Yeah I could see that but maybe it's the length thing that's influencing me because you'd have to cut your hair each time. In that case, it would make more sense for someone to get a BKT (which I am 2000% against).


----------



## Farida (Apr 6, 2009)

I will be honest and admit I am self-conscious about my natural hair (not because I think it is terrible, but the reactions people give me). When I was growing up in Kenya, it was normal for a lot of women to have natural hair. There are more relaxed heads now, but for the most part, most females, especially young ones, have natural hair. It costs way too much for many people to relax their hair.

Here, the very first day I walked into work with my afro, people made a huge deal about it. And my boss, even my flippin boss was running his fingers through my hair without my permission, because of 'curiosity.' People stared at me (didn't help that I was in South OC where there's barely any black folk to begin with.) Black people asking me when I was going to get a relaxer....I had family members even offer to give me money if I was having cash flow issues and couldn't get a relaxer? Really?

So, I don't like the attention it brings, because I am a quiet, reserved person. I don't like people staring at me and making a fuss. But the sad thing, is a large group of people in this country don't know what a black woman's hair looks/feels like it because they don't see it often. This is not the way it should be. I shouldn't be drawing attention to myself by letting my hair be the way it is meant to be.

But I love my hair. I also loved having a relaxer too, because I liked to wear my hair straight. I liked to be able to do the several straight styles without worrying that my hair would revert/fall.  I can still do that now, maybe not as often. 

Many women don't even put that much thought into a relaxer...so I don't think it is always self hate, not even mostly self hate. Just the norm.


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## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> 3! why would someone relax a child's hair at 3!




What I don't understand is, people are so outraged if someone relaxes a childs hair at ages 3-5 but if they're 6 or above it's somehow ok.


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## Carrie A (Apr 6, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> 3! why would someone relax a child's hair at 3!


 
It was too thick and nappy.erplexed

Although that's crazy to me,  my hair was pressed or blow dried regularly by the time I was 6/7.  This is the first time I'm seeing my natural hair too.  I had no memory of my natural unaltered hair.


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## CandiceC (Apr 6, 2009)

Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> *According to some of the looser textured women there really is no difference.
> *
> I do agree about that length concern as well.  Wooboo, some of us won't look good with nugget heads (me definitely included lol)



They wouldn't know. Unless you've got a good amount of a couple different textures including 4b, you really can't know. I will say from experience that my looser 4a hair in the front on the right is much more manageable during stretches than the other 4a/4b parts.


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## basketballbabe03 (Apr 6, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> 3! why would someone relax a child's hair at 3!



Um, that's child abuse.  I don't care what anyone else says.



Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> *According to some of the looser textured women there really is no difference.*
> 
> I do agree about that length concern as well.  Wooboo, some of us won't look good with nugget heads (me definitely included lol)



That is SO not true.  If that were the case then the same products that works on someone with a looser texture would work on another with 4b hair.  Especially when it comes to shrinkage.  I think not...


----------



## Qualitee (Apr 6, 2009)

Some people say they relax their hair to look more professional at their job. So curly hair= nonprofessional..........I think that is stupid.


----------



## LunadeMiel (Apr 6, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> Some people say they relax their hair to look more professional at their job. So curly hair= nonprofessional..........I think that is stupid.


 
I agree with the statement above... I actually think my natural bun/ponytails look better now that I'm natural. They are more interesting to look at....


----------



## CandiceC (Apr 6, 2009)

Hope I don't get in trouble  , but I have seen some black women who look awkward with straight hair. Can't say for sure if it's relaxed or pressed, but the straight hair just doesn't seem to go with some black women.

Has anyone ever thought that?


----------



## Farida (Apr 6, 2009)

Transitioning sucks.

I have 4a in the front and 4b at the back...so I know hair...I cried many times as a child having combs passed through my dry, tangled hair...now that I know better about my hair I wouldn't dare try and comb it dry!

Transitioning is a nightmare. Especially when you have problems like me, who the relaxer made my hair light and very thin, but my natural roots are very thick, bushy and curly. I looked ridiculous really when I was transitioning.

Then when I went in to do a BC, and the lady showed me a stylist who had just BC'ed I chickened out. Went back home to my nightmare mix of textures...I eventually just grabbed scissors and cut the ends off. 

Made my life X1,0000,0000,0000 simpler.

More than anything, even when I knew the relaxer was bad, I was afraid of short hair. I hadn't had short hair since I was maybe 5.

I feel very weird now with short hair...I just can't wait for it to grow.


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## Qualitee (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> What I don't understand is, people are so outraged if someone relaxes a childs hair at ages 3-5 but if they're 6 or above it's somehow ok.


 I dont believe any child should relax their hair. If a child's hair is relaxed its the mothers choice, not the child.


----------



## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> Some people say they relax their hair to look more professional at their job. So curly hair= nonprofessional..........I think that is stupid.




According to a thread on the hair board the other day you need a relaxer just to get a job in the first place.

You also need one to be beautiful and be able to find a man (especially if you want a black one).


----------



## basketballbabe03 (Apr 6, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> Some people say they relax their hair to look more professional at their job. So curly hair= nonprofessional..........I think that is stupid.



Yeah, I used to hear this from all my older relatives.  My natural hair has never stopped me from getting a job.  As long as it's neat, there shouldn't be a problem.


----------



## Summer_Rain (Apr 6, 2009)

tocktick said:


> * Parents, friends etc around them telling them natural hair is ugly etc.
> * Bad touch up experiences (I can remember a few - like being told my hair was "tough" because I'd been too lng without a relaxer)
> * Possibly seeing girls with natural hair being treated in a negative way. Where I grew up, many girls with twas were clowned. I'm sure the shortness was an added factor though.
> 
> I think a lot of it is more so fear, as opposed to hate. Of course, I do agree that there are women who dont hate their natural hair even if they've never experienced it. It differ from person to person but I don't think you need to have experienced something directly in order to hate, dislike or fear it.


 
I suppose it's the same way I HATE liver though I've never let it touch my lips! I feel sick to my stomach just thinking about it 

I still don't believe the thought process is as deep as it's made out to be for majority of relaxing black women. They/we relax because it's what we've been doing our entire lives. But then again, I may just be internalizing, so I'll say that I relax because it's what I've done my entire life. Hair type or length isn't a stigma I feel plagued by.

Could the quest for long hair be viewed with the same suspicions as relaxing vs natural?


----------



## Poranges (Apr 6, 2009)

Suppose someone looks better with straight hair? It fits my face more that's the only reason I relaxed, I know my natural hair because I was natural until age 16, had a big poofy, pretty afro, just didn't fit me and straightening constantly damaged the hair even more, so I relaxed.


----------



## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

CandiceC said:


> Hope I don't get in trouble  , but I have seen some black women who look awkward with straight hair. Can't say for sure if it's relaxed or pressed, but the straight hair just doesn't seem to go with some black women.
> 
> Has anyone ever thought that?




I was one of those women. The last time I got my hair pressed I took my wrap down when I got home and I was like, you don't even look cute. Washed my hair ten minutes later, even though that was money down the drain.

If I were meant to have straight hair, it would have grown out of my head the way and I'm sure it would have looked good.


----------



## ajoyfuljoy (Apr 6, 2009)

Bosslady1 said:


> The other thread about hairstyle options got locked?! How dreadful...


 

It only got locked b/c the OP requested that it be locked


----------



## basketballbabe03 (Apr 6, 2009)

CandiceC said:


> Hope I don't get in trouble  , but I have seen some black women who look awkward with straight hair. Can't say for sure if it's relaxed or pressed, but the straight hair just doesn't seem to go with some black women.
> 
> Has anyone ever thought that?



Yes!  This thought has passed through my mind.  I have a cousin who has a mix of 3b/3c hair.  She has a pretty curl pattern but she insists on keeping it straight.  IMO she looks better with some texture or a roller set instead of bone straight.


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## Carrie A (Apr 6, 2009)

There is a really good piece by Bell Hooks in Tenderheaded: A Comb Bending Collection of Hair Stories.  Dr. Hooks wears her hair in a natural, but she was writing about the struggle within herself, as a scholar of AA beauty choices and Eurocentric influences, not to press her hair.  She really wanted to have her hair straightened for an event or something.  There was an inner dialogue and a decision was made based on her desire to be authentic.  She wanted her beliefs amd actions to align completely with her words.  

So this hair thing runs deep...even in the minds of our great scholars.


----------



## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

SummerRain said:


> Could the quest for long hair be viewed with the same suspicions as relaxing vs natural?



Yes I think it can when people start doing things like using medication as a growth aid or other substances that can be harmful.


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## Summer_Rain (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> Yes I think it can when people start doing things like using medication as a growth aid or other substances that can be harmful.


 

I see your point MSA. We revere long hair and though terminal growth is shot down around here, there will clearly be a bulk of the women on this board who will never achieve their desired length no matter what they do or what process they go through.


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## basketballbabe03 (Apr 6, 2009)

SummerRain said:


> I suppose it's the same way I HATE liver though I've never let it touch my lips! I feel sick to my stomach just thinking about it
> 
> *I still don't believe the thought process is as deep as it's made out to be for majority of relaxing black women. *They/we relax because it's what we've been doing our entire lives. But then again, I may just be internalizing, so I'll say that I relax because it's what I've done my entire life. Hair type or length isn't a stigma I feel plagued by.
> 
> Could the quest for long hair be viewed with the same suspicions as relaxing vs natural?



I think it can be deep.  I mean, look at some of those Tyra episodes with those people that hate being black.  But then again, they just have issues.


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## BKVincy (Apr 6, 2009)

CandiceC said:


> Hope I don't get in trouble  , but I have seen some black women who look awkward with straight hair. Can't say for sure if it's relaxed or pressed, but the straight hair just doesn't seem to go with some black women.
> 
> Has anyone ever thought that?


 
I think look horrible with my hair straight IMO people like it and give me compliments but I never feel like myself but thats just me I felt like that through the 8 years I had my hair permed as well


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## LunadeMiel (Apr 6, 2009)

SummerRain said:


> I see your point MSA. We revere long hair and though terminal growth is shot down around here, there will clearly be a bulk of the women on this board who will never achieve their desired length no matter what they do or what process they go through.


 
I'm always erplexed when I hear people deny the existence of terminal length. Just like when people say that it isn't genetic...


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## Qualitee (Apr 6, 2009)

LunadeMiel said:


> I'm alway erplexed when I hear people deny the existence of terminal length. Just like when people say that it isn't genetic...


 I dont believe our hair from our scalp has a terminal length. But I do believe other hairy areas on our bodies do.


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## hairsothick (Apr 6, 2009)

LunadeMiel said:


> I'm alway erplexed when I hear people deny the existence of terminal length. Just like when people say that it isn't genetic...



I agree about genetics.  It definitely plays a part, I don't care what anyone says.  I'm not sure about the terminal length thing, but I can see how that would be true too.


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## tocktick (Apr 6, 2009)

CandiceC said:


> Hope I don't get in trouble  , but I have seen some black women who look awkward with straight hair. Can't say for sure if it's relaxed or pressed, but the straight hair just doesn't seem to go with some black women.
> 
> Has anyone ever thought that?



Well, it didn't look good on me at all. For some reason, straight hanging hair doesn't work for me.


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## LunadeMiel (Apr 6, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> I dont believe our hair from our scalp has a terminal length. But I do believe other hairy areas on our bodies do.


 
If that were true then our hair would never shed... Shed hair is hair that is passed its growth cylce....


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## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

SummerRain said:


> I see your point MSA. We revere long hair and though terminal growth is shot down around here, there will clearly be a bulk of the women on this board who will never achieve their desired length no matter what they do or what process they go through.




That terminal length thing is so discouraging, but I know it's true. Growth phases are only so long (avg 2-6 years) and growth rates can only be so high (as determined by genetics and diet/health).

I just hope I'm not one of the people with a growth phase of 2 years and a growth rate of 1/4 of an inch a month. That means my hair would never be longer than it is right now, and that's sad. But I'm sure it's true for some people.


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## CandiceC (Apr 6, 2009)

SummerRain said:


> I see your point MSA. We revere long hair and though terminal growth is shot down around here, there will clearly be a bulk of the women on this board who will never achieve their desired length no matter what they do or what process they go through.



I agree with this.


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## Summer_Rain (Apr 6, 2009)

LunadeMiel said:


> I'm always erplexed when I hear people deny the existence of terminal length. Just like when people say that it isn't genetic...


 


msa said:


> That terminal length thing is so discouraging, but I know it's true. Growth phases are only so long (avg 2-6 years) and growth rates can only be so high (as determined by genetics and diet/health).
> 
> I just hope I'm not one of the people with a growth phase of 2 years and a growth rate of 1/4 of an inch a month. That means my hair would never be longer than it is right now, and that's sad. But I'm sure it's true for some people.


 

I agree. So do we tell ppl who refuse to accept this (disputed)fact that they should just be happy with whatever the heck grows out of their scalp?


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## LisaLisa1908 (Apr 6, 2009)

More power to anybody that does what they want with their hair.  

It is not for me or anybody else to determine their motives for them.


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## Ramya (Apr 6, 2009)

LunadeMiel said:


> If that were true then our hair would never shed... Shed hair is hair that is passed it growth cylce....




really? my hair hasn't shed since my bc but it never shed a lot before. hmmm interesting 

ETA: Transitioning can be hard for people with coily hair. That's one of the major reasons I chose not to transition. I will admit that it is initially shocking to cut all your hair off. I was a few inches below shoulder length, headed toward APL when I bc'd and I was stunned for the first week.  Everybody around me was very supportive though so I think it helps to have people reinforcing the beauty of natural hair and baldness


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## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

SummerRain said:


> I agree. So do we tell ppl who refuse to accept this (disputed)fact that they should just be happy with whatever the heck grows out of their scalp?




Well here's the problem. Haircare/retention is the confounding variable. You can't really prove that someone has reached their terminal length if they have not had the retention regimen (and health) that is need for their hair and have been practicing it consistently for a few years.

So while terminal length is a fact, we can never really be 100% sure someone is that their terminal length because regimen and health play such a big part.

But, I do think people should be happy with what they have.


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## Summer_Rain (Apr 6, 2009)

Ramya said:


> really? my hair hasn't shed since my bc but it never shed a lot before. hmmm interesting


 
How do you know it hasn't shed?


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## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

Ramya said:


> really? my hair hasn't shed since my bc but it never shed a lot before. hmmm interesting




Ok, maybe you didn't notice the shed hairs but it definitely has shed. Every human being sheds hair. It may have been a little bit, but it definitely happened. Also, your shedding phase may be shorter than other people's and that could be another reason you didn't notice it.

It's like, when I was in high school, I'd go home with my white's classmates strands on my clothing. It was gross, but it's not like they did it on purpose. They obviously didn't notice that hair was falling out of their head, and how could they. It's not like it hurts or anything.


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## tocktick (Apr 6, 2009)

SummerRain said:


> I suppose it's the same way I HATE liver though I've never let it touch my lips! I feel sick to my stomach just thinking about it
> 
> I still don't believe the thought process is as deep as it's made out to be for majority of relaxing black women. They/we relax because it's what we've been doing our entire lives. But then again, I may just be internalizing, so I'll say that I relax because it's what I've done my entire life. Hair type or length isn't a stigma I feel plagued by.
> 
> Could the quest for long hair be viewed with the same suspicions as relaxing vs natural?



But then does make one wonder why we've been doing it for "our entire lives"? Is it really just routine or something deeper? I suppose opinion is divided. My personal experiences and just reading about other women has swayed me to believe what keeps such large numbers of women going back to the relaxer is this idea of conformity, routine and an element of ignorance. Then a deep rooted sense of fear that many people don't address is also a factor. Obviously, I'm generalising a lot and I have already noted many women who relax don't do it because they hate natural hair.

As for long vs. short hair: it's quite clear that many do want longer hair because they've been socialised to believe long hair is better if you're a woman. It's undoubtedly tied to femininity in our society and many other societies. I think people question it less because with relax vs natural, people could presume you have something against your race or texture. In terms of hair length, the equivalent of wanting long hair is rejecting short hair. Men mainly have short hair...thus, it appears like a non-issue. Yet, I think when some people cut their hair really low, they suddenly face a crisis like many who first go natural do. I sure as heck went though it. I still don't like short hair on me. I feel like I want to cut my hair now but I can't do it because as much as my hair is frustrating me, I'm not dealing with short hair again unless absolutely necessary or in an unfortunate circumstance. 

In a sense, it does make me feel more feminine. Yet it's also because I have a big ol' head and with my face shape, short hair didn't really work for me. Nor does that in-between thing. As my hair approaches APL, I think I look better.


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## Ramya (Apr 6, 2009)

SummerRain said:


> How do you know it hasn't shed?



When I comb my hair (once a week) nothing is on the floor, sink, denman or my clothes. It doesn't come out when I play in my hair either. It's weird, I was worried at first but I guess it's cool now. erplexed



msa said:


> Ok, maybe you didn't notice the shed hairs but it definitely has shed. Every human being sheds hair. It may have been a little bit, but it definitely happened. Also, your shedding phase may be shorter than other people's and that could be another reason you didn't notice it.
> 
> It's like, when I was in high school, I'd go home with my white's classmates strands on my clothing. It was gross, but it's not like they did it on purpose. They obviously didn't notice that hair was falling out of their head, and how could they. It's not like it hurts or anything.



I think it's my shed cycle is just short because even when my hair was longer it would shed a few strands a day but not a lot. The only time my hair sheds is when I'm sick. I have a white rug on the floor so if it's falling out I'd have to clean the rug by now.


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## Crackers Phinn (Apr 6, 2009)

Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> Let's ask Mwedzi that question or any other natural with the the thickest and kinkiest of hair and see if they are in agreement...



There is a natural fairytale that once you free yourself from the chemicals that your hair will cause you less stress. 



The act of pulling this into a puff took *15-20 minutes. *






Pulling this into a ponytail takes about *15-20 seconds. *




~~~~~~~~~~
I think that the overwhelming majority of black women relax because they have no idea how to maintain natural hair.  And while we are on the subject, most times black women who are natural can't shed much more light on natural hair problems other than 'cut it'. 

I know for myself that the only time I see myself going back to natural is when I'm in a place in my life where I'm content to wear a TWA.  Because knots and knotting hair are not the bisness.


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## LisaLisa1908 (Apr 6, 2009)

Ramya said:


> really? my hair hasn't shed since my bc but it never shed a lot before. hmmm interesting
> 
> ETA: Transitioning can be hard for people with coily hair. That's one of the major reasons I chose not to transition. I will admit that it is initially shocking to cut all your hair off. I was a few inches below shoulder length, headed toward APL when I bc'd and I was stunned for the first week.  Everybody around me was very supportive though so I think it helps to have people reinforcing the beauty of natural hair and baldness



Wow.  You haven't shed in MONTHS?  Amazing.  You're the only person I know in the world that doesn't shed.


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## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Apr 6, 2009)

LisaLisa1908 said:


> Wow. You haven't shed in MONTHS? Amazing. You're the only person I know in the world that doesn't shed.


 
That would have to be some kind of medical condition because all hair sheds a few strands a day at the minimum


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## PinkSkates (Apr 6, 2009)

MizzBrown said:


> I never understood straight hair naturals either. I don't get it.


I'm natural and wear my natural hair straightened about 70% of the time. What don't you get?


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## CandiceC (Apr 6, 2009)

JCoily said:


> There is a natural fairytale that once you free yourself from the chemicals that your hair will cause you less stress.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for your perspective. 
Two natural women I know that come to mind wear their hair in a TWA. 
If I were natural, I'd want my hair big.


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## Ramya (Apr 6, 2009)

Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> That would have to be some kind of medical condition because all hair sheds a few strands a day at the minimum



If it does shed, it is very VERY little. But I don't manipulate my hair daily either. I 'style' my hair once a week and leave it alone.


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## Summer_Rain (Apr 6, 2009)

tocktick said:


> But then does make one wonder why we've been doing it for "our entire lives"? Is it really just routine or something deeper? I suppose opinion is divided. My personal experiences and just reading about other women has swayed me to believe what keeps such large numbers of women going back to the relaxer is this idea of conformity, routine and an element of ignorance. Then a deep rooted sense of fear that many people don't address is also a factor. Obviously, I'm generalising a lot and I have already noted many women who relax don't do it because they hate natural hair.
> 
> As for long vs. short hair: it's quite clear that many do want longer hair because they've been socialised to believe long hair is better if you're a woman. It's undoubtedly tied to femininity in our society and many other societies. I think people question it less because with relax vs natural, people could presume you have something against your race or texture. In terms of hair length, the equivalent of wanting long hair is rejecting short hair. Men mainly have short hair...thus, it appears like a non-issue. Yet, I think when some people cut their hair really low, they suddenly face a crisis like many who first go natural do. I sure as heck went though it. I still don't like short hair on me. I feel like I want to cut my hair now but I can't do it because as much as my hair is frustrating me, I'm not dealing with short hair again unless absolutely necessary or in an unfortunate circumstance.
> 
> In a sense, it does make me feel more feminine. Yet it's also because I have a big ol' head and with my face shape, short hair didn't really work for me. Nor does that in-between thing. As my hair approaches APL, I think I look better.


 

I agree with you. 

I suppose (for me at least) you could possibly accuse my mother, grandmother and aunties of "self hate" - they were the ones who forced me into the chemical process! lol They aren't on the board to defend their motives, but here we are (the processed generation) needing to defend ourselves for things that for the most part, was out of our control. 

I've been on this board long enough to know that the process of transitioning can be long, tiresome and frustrating. If/when I get to the point that my time and money allows me to have someone else care for my tresses while I transition back, it would be something that I would at least want to try. But until then - I'll be Affirmin' it every 8-12 weeks! I'm driven by pure lazy!


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## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

JCoily said:


> There is a natural fairytale that once you free yourself from the chemicals that your hair will cause you less stress.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I seriously wish my hair looked like yours in the first picture. And I think this is an example of people forcing their hair to do things it's not meant to do. People with thick hair usually can't get their hair in a ponytail. So find another style instead of trying to force it. I don't see why that's so difficult. 

I think my opinion is colored by the fact that I've had my natural hair my whole life. So, when it can't do something I want it to do I just find an alternative that makes more sense for my hairs characteristics.



JCoily said:


> I think that the overwhelming majority of black women relax because they have no idea how to maintain natural hair.  *And while we are on the subject, most times black women who are natural can't shed much more light on natural hair problems other than 'cut it'. *
> 
> I know for myself that the only time I see myself going back to natural is when I'm in a place in my life where I'm content to wear a TWA.  Because knots and knotting hair are not the bisness.



I think the bolded is true, but it also depends on who you talk to.


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## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Apr 6, 2009)

Ramya said:


> If it does shed, it is very VERY little. But I don't manipulate my hair daily either. I 'style' my hair once a week and leave it alone.


 
When you comb/style your hair after that week is up do you have hairs in the comb/on the floor/wherever?


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## tocktick (Apr 6, 2009)

JCoily said:


> There is a natural fairytale that once you free yourself from the chemicals that your hair will cause you less stress.



I agree, being natural is not less work or easy for some people. It takes me a long time to do my hair: I avoid braids and twists as styles. I put rough ones in (no comb) when I want a twistout but I hate doing that too. I don't like dealing with knots killing off my progress etc. I'm not doing anything to my hair that it can't do: it's just mad thick and matts incredibly easily. Some people can out their whole hair into 6 parts, I put mine into about 15. Some people can keep twists for 2 weeks, mine look like ish literally the next day.

I can see why some naturals go back to being relaxed purely from a maintenance standpoint. However, presuming relaxed hair actually suited me, I still wouldn't go back to it now. I know although I probably won't face the same issues, there would still be new issues (like exercise/sweat) and I'd still have to do a bunch of stuff to maintain it the way I liked it.


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## shtow (Apr 6, 2009)

well i was addressed in the other thread when I "equated" hair to health because i said relaxing is like deodorant, toothpaste, etc...

No one is going to die from not using deodorant and not brushing ur teeth. Im sure it will take a hot minute to kill you lol I was saying relaxing is a means of self style, preference, and routine (for some people). 

I mean dang, if we wana take it there....natural people deep coniditon, comb, use products, etc. We use products everyday and start long threads every month on the new ones we buy!!! So to me, relaxing is a way for me to make things easier. It fits my preference and my lifestyle. Just like some women DC because it makes it easier for them to style their hair as well. 

I have no problem with natural ladies. Great. But personally, I don't relax cause I want to drastically alter myself and deny my true identity, its because its my hair and if I want to modify it to fit my preference and lifestyle then that's all there is to it.

Happy Hair Growing!


***swangs hair***


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## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> I seriously wish my hair looked like yours in the first picture. And I think this is an example of people forcing their hair to do things it's not meant to do. People with thick hair usually can't get their hair in a ponytail. So find another style instead of trying to force it. I don't see why that's so difficult.
> 
> I think my opinion is colored by the fact that I've had my natural hair my whole life. So, when it can't do something I want it to do I just find an alternative that makes more sense for my hairs characteristics.
> 
> ...


 
Msa, seriously, are you saying that natchal folx can't even wear there hair in ponytails?  Why must those with afro textured hair commit to only wearing 1 style for the rest of their life?


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## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> Msa, seriously, are you saying that natchal folx can't even wear there hair in ponytails?  Why must those with afro textured hair commit to only wearing 1 style for the rest of their life?




Noooooooo.

She just provided an example that fit (kind of), though not a good one.

I'm saying forcing your hair to do something it's just not designed to do is always going to be a battle. So whether that's putting it in a ponytail or straightening, I choose to just skip things that my hair's characteristics make it difficult to do.

I don't think naturals should be forced to wear one style. I just think it makes more sense to wear styles that work with your hair, instead of against it. If you have too much hair for the ponytail holder, get a bigger one or find another way to do it instead of trying to force all your hair to fit.


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## TCatt86 (Apr 6, 2009)

Ramya said:


> If it does shed, it is very VERY little. But I don't manipulate my hair daily either. I 'style' my hair once a week and leave it alone.



Your hair probably isn't breaking but it will shed some, has to make space for the new hair growing in.

I think this debate about why women relax is for naught, because people relax for different reasons, the same way women stop relaxing for different reasons.  I've said it before, not every woman that relaxes hate herself and hair and not every woman that's natural loves their hair the way it is, if they did their wouldn't be a million thread s in the hair forum about achieving the perfect twistout, braid out, coil out, flat iron etc.


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## LunadeMiel (Apr 6, 2009)

Ramya said:


> really? my hair hasn't shed since my bc but it never shed a lot before. hmmm interesting
> 
> ETA: Transitioning can be hard for people with coily hair. That's one of the major reasons I chose not to transition. I will admit that it is initially shocking to cut all your hair off. I was a few inches below shoulder length, headed toward APL when I bc'd and I was stunned for the first week.  Everybody around me was very supportive though so I think it helps to have people reinforcing the beauty of natural hair and baldness


 
I'm 99.9% sure that your hair is shedding. Or it wouldn't be growing... I do envy those women who don't shed a lot though. Since I cowash everyday I get to see it more often...


----------



## tocktick (Apr 6, 2009)

SummerRain said:


> I agree with you.
> 
> I suppose (for me at least) you could possibly accuse my mother, grandmother and aunties of "self hate" - they were the ones who forced me into the chemical process! lol They aren't on the board to defend their motives, but here we are (the processed generation) needing to defend ourselves for things that for the most part, was out of our control.
> 
> I've been on this board long enough to know that the process of transitioning can be long, tiresome and frustrating. If/when I get to the point that my time and money allows me to have someone else care for my tresses while I transition back, it would be something that I would at least want to try. *But until then - I'll be Affirmin' it every 8-12 weeks! I'm driven by pure lazy!*



@ bold - and I can't say I blame you at all. Natural hair is not a "quick fix", imo. I asked my mum why she relaxed my hair at 6 and she didn't really know. I think she got tired of dealing with my natural hair. Yet, one time last year, she said that she "forgot" my hair was so soft. She originally got a relaxer because she said back in the day it meant you were "sophisticated" and above other girls...this was back in like 80s Nigeria, btw. I know she had her doubts over me going natural and still isn't 100% on it. 

I never questioned why I relaxed my hair until I suddenly realised natural hair was actually a real alternative and didn't just think of it as merely "new growth". But that took damn near all of the hair on my head snapping off. Of course, I then had to face my own issues because I found out I'd been buying into the "standard of beauty" hype erplexed. It never occurred to me before.


----------



## LunadeMiel (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> Noooooooo.
> 
> She just provided an example that fit (kind of), though not a good one.
> 
> ...


 
I agree with you MSA. I've learned that no matter how much product I apply to my hair it will always look frizzy... Now I can try and try to make it look others but that would be too much effort. 
As far as ponytails, my hair is very dense so I make sure to do them when my hair is wet. That way I don't have to struggle with it when it's dry....


----------



## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> *Noooooooo*.
> 
> She just provided an example that fit (kind of), though not a good one.
> 
> ...


 

You remember "the bodyguard" movie?  I just read the "noooo" part like the crazy guy that was in love with Whitney 

Ok, sorry for sidetracking - 

I'll come back to this thought in a minute.....


----------



## TCatt86 (Apr 6, 2009)

JCoily said:


> There is a natural fairytale that once you free yourself from the chemicals that your hair will cause you less stress.



I don't know where that fairytale came from because it's a lie!!! I think some folks that go natural have this dream that their hair will look like Tracy Ellis Ross or Rachel True, etc.  They think they will just be able to wake up with beautiful curls and what not, but for most it won't happen.  I will say however that my natural hair isn't anymore difficult than my relaxed hair, it took me hours to style my hair when I was relaxed it still takes me hours now that I'm natural.


----------



## Summer_Rain (Apr 6, 2009)

tocktick said:


> @ bold - and I can't say I blame you at all. Natural hair is not a "quick fix", imo. I asked my mum why she relaxed my hair at 6 and she didn't really know. I think she got tired of dealing with my natural hair. Yet, one time last year, she said that she "forgot" my hair was so soft. She originally got a relaxer because she said back in the day it meant you were "sophisticated" and above other girls...this was back in like 80s Nigeria, btw. I know she had her doubts over me going natural and still isn't 100% on it.
> 
> I never questioned why I relaxed my hair until I suddenly realised natural hair was actually a real alternative and didn't just think of it as merely "new growth". But that took damn near all of the hair on my hair snapping off. Of course, I then had to face my own issues because I found out I'd been buying into the "standard of beauty" hype erplexed. It never occured to me before.


 
I've convinced myself that any hair style I rock would fit me, an Angela Davis fro or Beyonce Hawaiian silky  but I need to stop acting like there isn't an alternate experience had out there. I appreciate you sharing.


----------



## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

TCatt86 said:


> I don't know where that fairytale came from because it's a lie!!! I think some folks that go natural have this dream that their hair will look like Tracy Ellis Ross or Rachel True, etc.  *They think they will just be able to wake up with beautiful curls *and what not, but for most it won't happen.  I will say however that my natural hair isn't anymore difficult than my relaxed hair, it took me hours to style my hair when I was relaxed it still takes me hours now that I'm natural.




I wake up to beautiful coils and kinks every single day.

It all depends on how you define beautiful. Most people think that only natural hair like Tracy's or Rachel's is beautiful. But if you have 4ab hair it's only beautiful if you do a twistout/braidout or some other kind of out first.

It's sad really.


----------



## kandake (Apr 6, 2009)

Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> Msa, seriously, are you saying that natchal folx can't even wear there hair in ponytails?  Why must those with *afro textured hair* commit to only wearing 1 style for the rest of their life?



Ok, so I've been lurking.  But, this phrase is like nails on a chalk board.  I get visions of Shima.  I just can't take it...


----------



## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> Noooooooo.
> 
> She just provided an example that fit (kind of), though not a good one.
> 
> ...


 
I understand your point Msa 

I guess my thing is, why must naturals (especially thick, coarse haired ones) be ostracized for deciding to relax because they want to have flexibility and options pertaining to styles they want to create?


----------



## Poranges (Apr 6, 2009)

All in all...some black women relax because they don't like natural hair, some don't. End of that story...everybody has a different reason..I loved my afro and I might go back to it maaaany years from now, maybe when I'm 60-65..but relaxed hair suits my lifestyle AND my face...can't go wrong with that...not everybody wants to be natural and not everybody wants to be relaxed...yep. I just want healthy puurty hair.


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## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Apr 6, 2009)

**kandi** said:


> Ok, so I've been lurking. But, this phrase is like nails on a chalk board. I get visions of Shima. I just can't take it...


 
My bad


----------



## Crackers Phinn (Apr 6, 2009)

Southernbella. said:


> So for me, my hair requires maintenence no matter what state it's in.


This is true.  But I think that folks tend to exaggerate the ease of natural hair.  Mdwezi's detangling video made me shed tears for her.  I'm glad she stayed natural if that's what she wants to do, but I all kinda understood why she was considering a relaxer. 




MizzBrown said:


> Remember all those threads of folks BC'ing and then crying bloody mary because they've never seen their hair that short?



BC'ing is not for the faint of heart, but when you got folks cheerleading 'Do It. Do It.' and then in the BC thread they can't offer any advice other than put on some make up and earrings.   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






CandiceC said:


> Hope I don't get in trouble  , but I have seen some black women who look awkward with straight hair. Can't say for sure if it's relaxed or pressed, but the straight hair just doesn't seem to go with some black women.
> 
> Has anyone ever thought that?


Since I've been on hair boards, wigs don't look right on folks to me anymore.




msa said:


> I seriously wish my hair looked like yours in the first picture. And I think this is an example of people forcing their hair to do things it's not meant to do. People with thick hair usually can't get their hair in a ponytail. So find another style instead of trying to force it.* I don't see why that's so difficult.*



You don't see why finding an alternative to the most simple hairstyle available is difficult?  erplexed



tocktick said:


> I agree, being natural is not less work or easy for some people.


 




Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> Msa, seriously, are you saying that natchal folx can't even wear there hair in ponytails?  Why must those with afro textured hair commit to only wearing 1 style for the rest of their life?



I can't even wrap my mind around that post.  Not to mention that me wearing my hair loose for more than an hour led to all kind of knotty mayhem.


----------



## nappystorm (Apr 6, 2009)

pinkskates said:


> I'm natural and wear my natural hair straightened about 70% of the time. *What don't you get?*


 
I was wondering this as well...erplexed


----------



## Ramya (Apr 6, 2009)

Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> When you comb/style your hair after that week is up do you have hairs in the comb/on the floor/wherever?



No. I'm thinking maybe it sheds in the shower but I never see any when I clean the tub.


----------



## TCatt86 (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> I wake up to beautiful coils and kinks every single day.
> 
> It all depends on how you define beautiful. Most people think that only natural hair like Tracy's or Rachel's is beautiful. But if you have 4ab hair it's only beautiful if you do a twistout/braidout or some other kind of out first.
> 
> It's sad really.



Yeah well I don't, if I woke up to beautiful hair every morning, I wouldn't have to comb it or do a wash and go or twist it or throw it back in a puff and fluff it out.   When I wake up my hair is a flat, lopsided mess,  I wish I could wake up with beautiful coils and kinks everyday.  Do I hate my hair? No I love it and I feel it's beautiful, but I'm not walking out the door without my hair styled some sort of way, point.blank.period.  To me that's not self hate that's me taking pride in my appearance.


----------



## shtow (Apr 6, 2009)

JCoily said:


> BC'ing is not for the faint of heart, but when you got folks cheerleading 'Do It. Do It.' and then in the BC thread they can't offer any advice other than put on some make up and earrings.


That made me LOL so hard!!!


----------



## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> I understand your point Msa
> 
> I guess my thing is, why must naturals (especially thick, coarse haired ones) be ostracized for deciding to relax because they want to have flexibility and options pertaining to styles they want to create?



I don't think they should be ostracized. I get where you're coming from though. 

I guess I just don't agree with making that type of change to your hair because in my eyes it's not a temporary hair style. It's a permanent modification that can't be reversed. And, it requires really unhealthy chemicals. 

I can do lots of styles with my hair. But any style that requires me to damage my hair (with chemicals or heat) just isn't for me. Good thing I only have to worry about my own head.


----------



## Southernbella. (Apr 6, 2009)

Nevermind...already clarified.


----------



## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

TCatt86 said:


> Yeah well I don't, if I woke up to beautiful hair every morning, I wouldn't have to comb it or do a wash and go or twist it or throw it back in a puff and fluff it out.   When I wake up my hair is a flat, lopsided mess,  I wish I could wake up with beautiful coils and kinks everyday.




When I wake up my hair is flat and lopsided too, but I think it's beautiful.

I guess it's just me then.


----------



## rabs77 (Apr 6, 2009)

Ramya said:


> *If* it does shed, it is very VERY little. But I don't manipulate my hair daily either. I 'style' my hair once a week and leave it alone.



Ramya, take it from me, your hair sheds.


----------



## Southernbella. (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> I wake up to beautiful coils and kinks every single day.
> 
> *It all depends on how you define beautiful*. Most people think that only natural hair like Tracy's or Rachel's is beautiful. But if you have 4ab hair it's only beautiful if you do a twistout/braidout or some other kind of out first.
> 
> It's sad really.


----------



## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

TCatt86 said:


> Yeah well I don't, if I woke up to beautiful hair every morning, I wouldn't have to comb it or do a wash and go or twist it or throw it back in a puff and fluff it out.   When I wake up my hair is a flat, lopsided mess,  I wish I could wake up with beautiful coils and kinks everyday.  Do I hate my hair? No I love it and I feel it's beautiful, but I'm not walking out the door without my hair styled some sort of way, point.blank.period.  To me that's not self hate that's me taking pride in my appearance.




So you've never just worn your hair out, no head band, no products, nothing at all added?


----------



## Ramya (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> I wake up to beautiful coils and kinks every single day.
> 
> It all depends on how you define beautiful. Most people think that only natural hair like Tracy's or Rachel's is beautiful. But if you have 4ab hair it's only beautiful if you do a twistout/braidout or some other kind of out first.
> 
> It's sad really.



Me too. In fact my TWA is at that stage where my curls, coils and frizz stick out in every direction known to man but I still think it's cute. It's all good because I'm finally getting some hangtime but I didn't know it was going to shoot straight out.I let my hair dictate what "style" I'm going to wear. I don't fight against it and it doesn't go crazy on me.


----------



## nappystorm (Apr 6, 2009)

Southernbella. said:


> Nevermind...already clarified.


 Your hair is awesome


----------



## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

Ramya said:


> Me too. In fact my TWA is at that stage where my curls, coils and frizz stick out in every direction known to man but I still think it's cute. It's all good because I'm finally getting some hangtime but I didn't know it was going to shoot straight out.I let my hair dictate what "style" I'm going to wear. I don't fight against it and it doesn't go crazy on me.



I understand that feeling completely. Right now, my regular shrunken fro looks like a weird mullet helmet. But I love it because even though it's lopsided, it's all mine and it's beautiful. It has character.


----------



## likewtr4chklit (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> Exactly. I don't get where that keeps coming from. As I said in the other thread people who relax don't automatically hate themselves just like people who are natural don't automatically love themselves.


 


MizzBrown said:


> I never understood straight hair naturals either. I don't get it.


 


Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> Why can't the sentiment be that some women of color relax because they do not like nappy hair/themselves and others do it for other reasons that don't involve the former? I just don't get it....


 

It all comes down to folks need to worry about what's inside their own heads rather than what is on someone elses . Relaxers didn't bring down the black community and a whole bunch of sistas wearing fro's and wash N' go's wont fix it.


----------



## BKVincy (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> I understand that feeling completely. Right now, my regular shrunken fro looks like a weird mullet helmet. But I love it because even though it's lopsided, it's all mine and it's beautiful. It has character.


 
yes its rainy and moist today and my hair is outso you must know how im looking right now. Im just letting it do what it do


----------



## TCatt86 (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> So you've never just worn your hair out, no head band, no products, nothing at all added?



 I have worn a twistout fro on the fourth day and all I did was add water to fluff it out, I wear twists for days at a time but those are styles to me.  I manipulated in some sort of way, even if it's just spritzing with water to me that's styling, I fluff it to make my fro even, that's styling.  I have never just woken up out of bed and gone without doing something.


----------



## nappystorm (Apr 6, 2009)

likewtr4chklit said:


> *It all comes down to folks need to worry about what's inside their own heads rather than what is on someone elses* . Relaxers didn't bring down the black community and a whole bunch of sistas wearing fro's and wash N' go's wont fix it.


 Amen!! I've always been part of the "who cares" club when it comes to these debates


----------



## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

JCoily said:


> You don't see why finding an alternative to the most simple hairstyle available is difficult?  erplexed
> 
> 
> I can't even wrap my mind around that post.  Not to mention that me wearing my hair loose for more than an hour led to all kind of knotty mayhem.




I guess I don't see why it's difficult. And like I said, I think that's because I've had natural hair my whole life. There are no other alternatives for me. So I find a way to work with my hair, it's just second nature. 

I couldn't get my hair in a comfortable bun until recently, so I just didn't wear one. Now I can, so I do. I used to not be able to wear my hair shrunken without getting knots/tangles, but since I've figured it out I wear it shrunken almost every single day.

I just don't think natural hair is as difficult as people make it out to be, especially if people work with their hair instead of against it. But, I know my experience is not going to be the same as everyone else's, which is fine.


----------



## TCatt86 (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> When I wake up my hair is flat and lopsided too, but I think it's beautiful.
> 
> I guess it's just me then.



Oh it's beautiful to me.   Just as beautiful as me with my bonnet on.  But I'm not walking out the house like that though.  I just can't.


----------



## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

TCatt86 said:


> I have worn a twistout fro on the fourth day and all I did was add water to fluff it out, I wear twists for days at a time but those are styles to me.  I manipulated in some sort of way, even if it's just spritzing with water to me that's styling, I fluff it to make my fro even, that's styling.  I have never just woken up out of bed and gone without doing something.




Hmmmm. I see what you mean. I guess I style almost every day since I rinse my hair in the shower or I fluff it out and skip the rinsing altogether. Then again there are days where I get out of bed and don't even touch my hair.


----------



## TCatt86 (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> Hmmmm. I see what you mean. I guess I style almost every day since I rinse my hair in the shower or I fluff it out and skip the rinsing altogether. *Then again there are days where I get out of bed and don't even touch my hair*.



See I can't do that, just because I can't keep my hands out of my hair, I am a fro fluffer,  I fluff throughout the day.


----------



## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> I guess I don't see why it's difficult. *And like I said, I think that's because I've had natural hair my whole lif*e. There are no other alternatives for me. So I find a way to work with my hair, it's just second nature.
> 
> I couldn't get my hair in a comfortable bun until recently, so I just didn't wear one. Now I can, so I do. I used to not be able to wear my hair shrunken without getting knots/tangles, but since I've figured it out I wear it shrunken almost every single day.
> 
> I just don't think natural hair is as difficult as people make it out to be, especially if people work with their hair instead of against it. But, I know my experience is not going to be the same as everyone else's, which is fine.


 
I think you've hit a big nail on the head MSA


----------



## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

TCatt86 said:


> See I can't do that, just because I can't keep my hands out of my hair, I am a fro fluffer,  I fluff throughout the day.




Fluffing creates knots for me (because if you stretch the coils too quickly they get tied up on themselves) so I try not to do it. It's better for my hair to just rinse it and let it dry and not touch it too much.


----------



## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> I think you've hit a big nail on the head MSA




That's why I always try to mention it in these types of discussions. I know it makes a difference. When you don't have another alternative, you will make a way. I don't consider relaxers/BKT/heat straightening an alternative so I just work it out with my natural hair.


----------



## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> That's why I always try to mention it in these types of discussions. I know it makes a difference. When you don't have another alternative, you will make a way. I don't consider relaxers/BKT/heat straightening an alternative so I just work it out with my natural hair.


 
I admire your attitude msa, i really do.  

Let's go have tacos over at Tito's Taco's in Culver City and discuss this further   Coily you can come too


----------



## Southernbella. (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> That's why I always try to mention it in these types of discussions. I know it makes a difference. When you don't have another alternative, you will make a way. I don't consider relaxers/BKT/heat straightening an alternative so I just work it out with my natural hair.


 
And this is why I had to learn how to braid. Relaxers are not an option for my dd, so I had to learn how to do a bunch of different styles that would hold up at school. At first, I was at a complete loss, but through trial and error, I learned and it's working out.


----------



## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> I admire your attitude msa, i really do.
> 
> Let's go have tacos over at Tito's Taco's in Culver City and discuss this further   Coily you can come too



Thanks! Tito's is so yummy! We do need to have an los angeles meet up (in the valley). 



Southernbella. said:


> And this is why I had to learn how to braid. Relaxers are not an option for my dd, so I had to learn how to do a bunch of different styles that would hold up at school. At first, I was at a complete loss, but through trial and error, I learned and it's working out.



I need to learn how to braid/cornrow/flat twist. I still can't do them right. But yeah, it's a learning process and somehow you just work it out eventually.


----------



## claudia05 (Apr 6, 2009)

Ramya said:


> No. I'm thinking maybe it sheds in the shower but I never see any when I clean the tub.


That's because it goes down the drain...


----------



## Ramya (Apr 6, 2009)

claudia05 said:


> That's because it goes down the drain...



Yes, I realize that. I wish my roommate's hair would.  But anyway I'm going to do an experiment later and stop the tub to see.


----------



## cabellera (Apr 6, 2009)

*LONG POST WARNING!!! *
I think perhaps when people start threads like this, it may not be to start trouble, but to have people stop and ask themselves, why do they habitually straighten on a deeper level. Not just for to quip a "styling choice" answer or to receive a cyber beat down from someone with natural hair. Maybe the better question is to ask, why do you "exclusively" straighten? Who set that texture up and made it reign supreme! LOL! 

The hair of standard for centuries now has been straight. The cosmotology industry is built upon it. The most marketed hair is that of straight, smooth with body, bounce and shine. This texture and type is also defined as healthy. There are many peoples on the planet of varying ethnicities that acheive this with little to no effort because the straight and smooth hair texture comes naturally out of their scalps. This is not true for those with afro-textured hair. 

Our Mothers wait patiently with bated breath to see what texture their daughters will have. What grade will it be? Good, bad or better or any where close to half, part, some of straight. Ask yourself Why? Nothing short of a celebration is in order if all it takes is a little gel and water to have little Shaquita's hair coifed neatly in plates. If you're not considered among the fortunate, those that meet "the standard, well, Momma's got a pressing comb in hand for you. Today We even have straight phony ponies, yarn and hair extensions to offer our daughters and one day a chemical softner or relaxer will be inducted to do the job of straightening her hair. We can not deny that we have culturalized this hair transitioning process. It is the way we do things. It is not a flippant choice that one makes to go natural. You know it isn't. You get over in that camp and go, wait! I was to have curls, not knowing that many of the advertised afro-textured curls belong to biracials and many of us transitioned over only to find that we'd have a time with those knots and snarls. LOL! 

we are told that straight is more manageable. It is a simple styling choice. Simple? Simple doesn't have you running from rain, wind and spazzin when napps peak from the scalp. Now, I will also add that this styling option will not get you any level of hateration, flack for going to school, work, church, play, etc., if you have straighten hair. It is THE NORM for US now. Oh, you thought it was just a choice, nope this is now our culture - transitioning our coils to smooth & straight and it is no longer a choice really. Think about it, when was the last time you got ridiculed about your straight hair, a negative cat call off the street or got anxiety over making such a choice in regards to a mate or getting a job, just because your hair was straighten?  In THIS PRESENT SOCIETY the choice is if you choose to wear your hair natural and out for everyone to see it, no hiding under smooth straight wigs, weaves or extensions either. Now that is a choice. Unfortunately, for some ...nothing to take lightly. We are not mentally conditioned to wear our hair natural. LOL! We never demanded different tools, products formalations to make things easier in managing afro-textured hair. No we di-ent! 

Those with naturally straight hair RULE the cosmotology industry! The rest of us are to mimic and judge ourselves in accordance to the degree of which we can successfuly pull off that straighten look. You should ALL have long hair, if that is your desire. It should NOT be a life long pursuit! Styling choice my A! I would love to read on this board time and time again about the styling choices like "Oh I thought I'd cut my hair to about 3 inches all around..." and then read responses like "Oh, but your 27 inches was soooo lovely, breakage,excessive shedding and brittle free!" Straight or Natural, I don't care!  I will enjoy reading those styling choices fifty-eleven times! Instead, it's "I'm gone put my hair under Quan Lee's Remy straight from June until Christmas!" AAAAAAAAAARGH! Damn it something is wrong! You should all have long damn hair, if you want it! It shouldn't be that hard. Yet it is for some, I'd go as far as state the majority...what's the big mystery..is it heredity, your ethnicity, texture or something in the formulations of the products we use? Hmmmm, any companies out there with MIT DEGREE staff studying afro-textured hair? LOL!  I do hope one day that you ALL can have REAL FREEDOM in those styling choices, I want you to swim and boat and not be left ashore or wear a walmart bag with a baseball cap 'cos you just got your hair done and be the laughing stock of the employee outing. I want you to kiss your lovers in the rain and not worry that your hair will go back. I want you to laugh with the crowd when you fell into the pool along with your friends and not have it take you two hours to get back into form. Those knotty haired naturals and those naturally straight haired ones were ready to go and waiting for you downstairs for two hours. We wait 'cos we love ya!

Oh and i'm a natural and I'm not going to romanticize it at all! I didn't know what the hell I was doing. I hadn't seen natural hair since, I don't know when. All I knew how to do was transition my hair and then pickup the Breck Girl's regimen, just add a little oil. LOL! 


However, something's wrong. If I see yet another eroded hairline, an extension barely hanging on to weaken roots...When I hear one more cry of PARANOIA due to rain, wind or at the peak of coily texture emerging from scalp, I'll ask again...WHY! Why all this drama! Who set up that smooth, straighten hair as THE STANDARD, THE HAIR OF THE GODDESSES DEVINE! Then that still quiet voice of rational will repeat again..."You all did, after all it is a choice." JMO. Peace!


----------



## Evolving78 (Apr 6, 2009)

heyfranz said:


> Style choice. Just like coloring.  I switch back and forth between natural and relaxed.  I just relaxed last April and i will bc again at some point. I've done it twice. It's just my nature.  Right now i've hennaed to cover a few grays and add thickness to my strands. At some point i'm sure i will happily be all gray.  Just depends on how i feel at a particular moment in my life.



i don't think there is anything wrong with relaxing, or anything for that matter.  i got a problem with the self hate.  i loved my hair when it was relaxed.  i just didn't want to deal with the process of it all and i learned that i didn't have to get a relaxer if i didn't want too.    and i love having the ability to change my hair color.  sometimes i just want something different.


----------



## Evolving78 (Apr 6, 2009)

i went bowling this past weekend and i was the only nappy-headed woman in there.  everyone had weave or straight hair.  85% had damaged hair.  now what does something like that tell you?


----------



## Crackers Phinn (Apr 6, 2009)

Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> Let's go have tacos over at Tito's Taco's in Culver City and discuss this further   Coily you can come too



mmmmm....Tito's....

I'm not allowed to eat anything that tastes good for another 2 months so I'll have to take a rain check.


----------



## Tami2shoes (Apr 6, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> 3! why would someone relax a child's hair at 3!



unfortunately i know too many women that were relaxed at that age. its unfortunate. 

i've been natural most of my life and i have 4b hair that never grew very long. my parents discouraged me from relaxing because they told me that my nappy hair is beautiful. i did it anyways because of peer pressure but that didn't last long. of my 31 years i've been natural for 23.

what i wanna know is how a girl who is relaxed at 3 can ever be taught that she is beautiful just as she is? how will this girl ever feel that her hair is beautiful when her own mother disliked it so much she placed caustic chemicals on her infant scalp?! this is why relaxing among black women is so closely tied to self-hatred. although it happens occasionally, white women aren't dyeing their children's hair blonde at 3, asian women aren't giving their children hair weaves at 3... nope, but black women will do all of the above to themselves and their children for all of their lives because they just can't deal with the inconveniences or appearances of nappy hair. 

it ain't all about style. 

that's not to say that it isn't sometimes about style. after all its nearly impossible to style finger waves with a 4b fro. for that you MUST have a perm.


----------



## Carrie A (Apr 6, 2009)

JCoily said:


> mmmmm....Tito's....
> 
> I'm not allowed to eat anything that tastes good for another 2 months so I'll have to take a rain check.


 


Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> Let's go have tacos over at Tito's Taco's in Culver City and discuss this further  Coily you can come too


 


msa said:


> Thanks! Tito's is so yummy! We do need to have an los angeles meet up (in the valley).
> 
> 
> 
> I need to learn how to braid/cornrow/flat twist. I still can't do them right. But yeah, it's a learning process and somehow you just work it out eventually.


 
What do you think of Campos...I really liked their taco's but the place got bashed in reviews.  Dang, I missed out on Tito's.


----------



## Summer_Rain (Apr 6, 2009)

shortdub78 said:


> i went bowling this past weekend and i was the only nappy-headed woman in there.  everyone had weave or straight hair.  85% had damaged hair.  now what does something like that tell you?



That they don't know how to take care of their hair, and that likely wouldnt change if they were natural!!


----------



## seraphinelle (Apr 6, 2009)

LMAO @ the insinuation that naturals love being black more.

Just because it isn't said, doesn't mean it's not implied.

I've been back and forth on the natural and relaxed trains.

I'd be quite interested to know the hair type of the natural militants.

For obvious reasons.


----------



## Evolving78 (Apr 6, 2009)

i think a lot of our mothers relaxed our hair because they didn't know how to handle nappy hair or wanted to be straight all of the time, and not have to worry about pressing it. a lot of our mothers relaxed our hair because they believed nappy hair was ugly and shouldn't be worn out in public.  those beliefs have been ingrained in us and this is why we are having this debate now.  that is just a fact.


----------



## seraphinelle (Apr 6, 2009)

And when you see broken relaxed hair, that same person being natural won't change the health of it.

So stop submitting that theory.


----------



## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Apr 6, 2009)

Carrie A said:


> What do you think of Campos...I really liked their taco's but the place got bashed in reviews. Dang, I missed out on Tito's.


 

Why does Campo's sound so familiar to me???  I don't think i've ever had it though.

I wanted to thank you Missy for the rolls in your siggy.  I had sushi today for lunch because of you


----------



## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Apr 6, 2009)

Dang yall.  Do you realize that for the most part we've been having an actual  "discussion"?  Awesome conversation ladies!


----------



## missann (Apr 6, 2009)

JCoily said:


> mmmmm....Tito's....
> 
> I'm not allowed to eat anything that tastes good for another 2 months so I'll have to take a rain check.



Love the will power -- I need some of that.  

I wanted to ask you about the puff/ponytail when you were natural.  What were you using to secure the puff.  I ask because the puff takes me only 5 seconds, especially when styled wet.  I thought that's why the puff is such a go-to style for many naturals.  I just doubled a large elastic band around my neck and slid it up on my head.

Also, I wanted to ask how you receive all the compliments since relaxing your hair.  I know people fawn over your straight hair, implying it's a vast improvement over a nappy head.  Do you nip it in the bud or discuss the nappy issue?


----------



## Evolving78 (Apr 6, 2009)

SummerRain said:


> That they don't know how to take care of their hair, and that likely wouldnt change if they were natural!!



so that just goes to show you that black women have issues when it comes to hair all the way around.  a lot of them would rather keep getting relaxers and weaves , thinking that will fix their hair problems.  chemicals, straightening, combing is what causes the most damage.  we are in the habit of trying to manipulate our hair into something that it constantly fights against.   when you have relaxed or heat treated hair, you literally have to walk on eggshells to keep it from falling out of your head.


----------



## seraphinelle (Apr 6, 2009)

shortdub78 said:


> so that just goes to show you that black women have issues when it comes to hair all the way around.  a lot of them would rather keep getting relaxers and weaves , thinking that will fix their hair problems.  chemicals, straightening, combing is what causes the most damage.  we are in the habit of trying to manipulate our hair into something that it constantly fights against.   when you have relaxed or heat treated hair, you literally have to walk on eggshells to keep it from falling out of your head.



And some of us had to walk on eggshells to prevent it from tangling up.


----------



## Evolving78 (Apr 6, 2009)

delete.....


----------



## Southernbella. (Apr 6, 2009)

shortdub78 said:


> so that just goes to show you that black women have issues when it comes to hair all the way around. a lot of them would rather keep getting relaxers and weaves , thinking that will fix their hair problems. chemicals, straightening, combing is what causes the most damage. we are in the habit of trying to manipulate our hair into something that it constantly fights against. when you have relaxed or heat treated hair, you literally have to walk on eggshells to keep it from falling out of your head.


 


seraphinelle said:


> And some of us had to walk on eggshells to prevent it from tangling up.


 
And some people don't have any of these issues. It's all relative.


----------



## Evolving78 (Apr 6, 2009)

seraphinelle said:


> And some of us had to walk on eggshells to prevent it from tangling up.



but that is an issue that could be easily fixed.  you know the science of chemically treated hair, there is a lot more care and maintenance that you have to go through.  your hair is more fragile.  it is more prone to breakage and split ends.


----------



## Skiggle (Apr 6, 2009)

cabellera said:


> *LONG POST WARNING!!! *
> I think perhaps when people start threads like this, it may not be to start trouble, but to have people stop and ask themselves, why do they habitually straighten on a deeper level. Not just for to quip a "styling choice" answer or to receive a cyber beat down from someone with natural hair. Maybe the better question is to ask, why do you "exclusively" straighten? Who set that texture up and made it reign supreme! LOL!
> 
> The hair of standard for centuries now has been straight. The cosmotology industry is built upon it. The most marketed hair is that of straight, smooth with body, bounce and shine. This texture and type is also defined as healthy. There are many peoples on the planet of varying ethnicities that acheive this with little to no effort because the straight and smooth hair texture comes naturally out of their scalps. This is not true for those with afro-textured hair.
> ...




The bold had me crack'n up!

Sadly its true though....
Nice post..


----------



## Ramya (Apr 6, 2009)

shortdub78 said:


> but that is an issue that could be easily fixed.  you know the science of chemically treated hair, there is a lot more care and maintenance that you have to go through.  your hair is more fragile.  it is more prone to breakage and split ends.



I've been meaning to ask you about your twists. How long does it take to do them at the length your hair was in the first pic?


----------



## Carrie A (Apr 6, 2009)

seraphinelle said:


> LMAO @ the insinuation that naturals love being black more.
> 
> I'd be quite interested to know the hair type of the natural militants.
> 
> For obvious reasons.


 
Who are the natural militants in this thread? Rollcall please?


----------



## Evolving78 (Apr 6, 2009)

Ramya said:


> I've been meaning to ask you about your twists. How long does it take to do them at the length your hair was in the first pic?



2 to 2 1/2 hours.  i make them really small and just part with my fingers.


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## Essensual (Apr 6, 2009)

CandiceC said:


> I missed the other discussion, but relaxing hair is a styling choice. You can just cut the hair off if you don't want it on your head anymore.


 
I totally agree and I'm a proud napptural. 

To me being napptural is a choice as well. I choose to be napptural because I feel it is healthier for MY hair and lifestyle, and I enjoy the versatility of being able to be curly or straight at my descretion.

...that is all.


----------



## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Apr 6, 2009)

Carrie A said:


> Who are the natural militants in this thread? Rollcall please?


 
I don't believe there are any here at this present time, but they are around


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## Ramya (Apr 6, 2009)

shortdub78 said:


> 2 to 2 1/2 hours.  i make them really small and just part with my fingers.



Dang I guess I need to get the idea of 30 second hair out of my mind. I'm not used to 'doing' my hair anymore so 2.5 hours sounds like torture.


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## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

seraphinelle said:


> And some of us had to walk on eggshells to prevent it from tangling up.




And some of us let it tangle since that's just what it does.


----------



## curlcomplexity (Apr 6, 2009)

I've had both natural and relaxed hair, both healthy.  I enjoy both journeys, but at this time I prefer to be relaxed maybe...maybe that will change later on.  It's a style choice for me, I like the look of thick straight hair, that dosen't mean that I hate myself.


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## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

Essensual said:


> I totally agree an I a proud napptural.
> 
> To me being napptural is a choice as well. I choose to napptural because I feel it is healthier for MY hair and lifestyle, and I enjoy the versatility of being able to be curly or straight at my descretion.
> 
> ...that is all.



what does napptural mean?


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## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

oh I don't know if I'm considered militant, but I am a 4ab natural if that makes  my opinions more valid.


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## v2.0 (Apr 6, 2009)

SummerRain said:


> Same here. If I had came across this forum in college - I'd probably be rocking my natural goodness right now. But a las, I found this place about 10yrs too late. I think that force of habit is probably a more likely culprit than style choices or "hatred" of natural. In truth - I'd likely have tons more options with my natural hair. *I could rock an afro, sport a coily-do, get a blow job and be silky straight.* As it is now, to do anything with texture I have to use heat and go thru a 2hr beautification process


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## Carrie A (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> what does napptural mean?


 
It's a term coined by members of Nappturality for wearing the hair in it's natural state with no altering of texture via heat straightening.


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## Carrie A (Apr 6, 2009)

SummerRain said:


> Same here. If I had came across this forum in college - I'd probably be rocking my natural goodness right now. But a las, I found this place about 10yrs too late. I think that force of habit is probably a more likely culprit than style choices or "hatred" of natural. In truth - I'd likely have tons more options with my natural hair. I could rock an afro, sport a coily-do, *get a blow job* and be silky straight. As it is now, to do anything with texture I have to use heat and go thru a 2hr beautification process


 
OOo girl you better get that!


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## Southernbella. (Apr 6, 2009)

Are there militant relaxed heads as well? Hmmm...



> Dang I guess I need to get the idea of 30 second hair out of my mind. I'm not used to 'doing' my hair anymore so 2.5 hours sounds like torture.



 Man, it was so nice to have a TWA. Then my hair started growing and my 30 second hair days were OVER. The quickest I can do my hair now is 10 minutes for a wash n go (It would be quicker,  but I have to pin up the back so as not to have a mullet).


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## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

Carrie A said:


> It's a term coined by members of Nappturality for wearing the hair in it's natural state with no altering of texture via heat straightening.




Oh ok.

I can't deal with too many new terms. In my world either you're natural or not.


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## Southernbella. (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> oh I don't know if I'm considered militant, but I am a 4ab natural if that makes my opinions more valid.


 
I'm pretty sure I'm one of those nappy nazis who gave up relaxers and all of a sudden became enlightened.


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## seraphinelle (Apr 6, 2009)

Militant relaxed heads?

Surely you jest.

They'd be labelled self-haters even before they got the word 'militant' out of their mouths


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## Carrie A (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> Oh ok.
> 
> I can't deal with too many new terms. In my world either you're natural or not.


There they have napptural...natural 
Here there is relaxed....texlaxed


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## missann (Apr 6, 2009)

Carrie A said:


> It's a term coined by members of Nappturality for wearing the hair in it's natural state with no altering of texture via heat straightening.



Right.  It's also a state of mind which doesn't elevate looser curls and appreciates all kinky hair types.


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## Poranges (Apr 6, 2009)

seraphinelle said:


> Militant relaxed heads?
> 
> Surely you jest.
> 
> They'd be labelled self-haters even before they got the word 'militant' out of their mouths



I still don't see how a preference for straight hair=hate...I'm in agreement with you..not everybody wants to be cool and curly..some people just want to be sleek and straight  Just because I'm black doesn't mean I can't love straight huuuurrrr.


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## Bint Yusef (Apr 6, 2009)

Southernbella. said:


> I'm pretty sure I'm one of those nappy nazis who gave up relaxers and all of a sudden became enlightened.


Nothing wrong with that. I dont know why folks try to make that out to be a bad thing. You came to a realization about socio/historical/political context of your hair choice. What is wrong with that? Plus the hair is gawjus! Am I allowed to compliment you?


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## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Apr 6, 2009)

v2.0 said:


>


 

bwahahahahahahahaahha   I was trying to not say anything about that!!!


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## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

Southernbella. said:


> I'm pretty sure I'm one of those nappy nazis who gave up relaxers and all of a sudden became enlightened.



LOL. I'm glad I got to skip that since I've never had a relaxer. Maybe I became enlightened when I stopped pressing.



Carrie A said:


> There they have napptural...natural
> Here there is relaxed....texlaxed



Hmmm. Well, either your hair is natural, meaning the texture/color are the same as they grew out of your scalp, or you're not.

That's just my opinion.


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## Southernbella. (Apr 6, 2009)

seraphinelle said:


> Militant relaxed heads?
> 
> Surely you jest.
> 
> They'd be labelled self-haters even before they got the word 'militant' out of their mouths


 
What do you consider militant?


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## Southernbella. (Apr 6, 2009)

Bint Yusef said:


> Nothing wrong with that. I dont know why folks try to make that out to be a bad thing. You came to a realization about socio/historical/political context of your hair choice. What is wrong with that? Plus the hair is gawjus! Am I allowed to compliment you?


 
Thank you.

I agree with you. I don't think it's a bad thing either, especially since it often happens in reverse. Naturals relax and have an epiphany about all the wonderful things they can do with their hair and talk about how much happier they are and nobody bats an eye. Why can't it be the same when it's the other way around?


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## Summer_Rain (Apr 6, 2009)

shortdub78 said:


> so that just goes to show you that black women have issues when it comes to hair all the way around.  a lot of them would rather keep getting relaxers and weaves , thinking that will fix their hair problems.  chemicals, straightening, combing is what causes the most damage.  we are in the habit of trying to manipulate our hair into something that it constantly fights against.   when you have relaxed or heat treated hair, you literally have to walk on eggshells to keep it from falling out of your head.



Well I agree that unhealthy hair practices will inevitably lead to damage. But there are plenty of healthy relaxed heads and there are tons of naturals here whos hair has been but two snaps long despite years of being chemical free.

IMHO - going natural isn't the cure-all to damaged hair. If someone doesn't know what to do with their hair in a so called manageable state, they certainly won't know what to do when it's in the opposite.


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## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

Southernbella. said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I agree with you. I don't think it's a bad thing either, especially since it often happens in reverse. Naturals relax and have an epiphany about all the wonderful things they can do with their hair and talk about how much happier they are and nobody bats an eye. Why can't it be the same when it's the other way around?




Because the moment after you cut off your relaxed ends you mount your high horse named Nappy Militant.


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## lynndiallo (Apr 6, 2009)

Natural 4ab here! Hasn't been any problem for me, just a bit of shea butter and I'm good to go.


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## Carrie A (Apr 6, 2009)

seraphinelle said:


> I'd be quite interested to know the hair type of the natural militants.
> 
> For obvious reasons.


 
Thing is that when your're relaxed and if you have been relaxed or straightened for most of your life you don't have much idea what your hair is going to be like..your "type".  The decision to wear the hair naturally is is made when the hair is still relaxed. That decision is based on certain reasons.  The reasons don't really change once the hair is all natural regardless of type.  So I think the questions asked are valid coming from any head of hair.


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## Bint Yusef (Apr 6, 2009)

Southernbella. said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I agree with you. I don't think it's a bad thing either, especially since it often happens in reverse. Naturals relax and have an epiphany about all the wonderful things they can do with their hair and talk about how much happier they are and nobody bats an eye. Why can't it be the same when it's the other way around?


When I cut off all my hair(down to .25 inch)  I was on NC, before NP got started and Deecoily took us all over to NP a few months later after she got fed up with the clear folk. So I came of age when NP was a brand new yahoo group...so that colors my perception. Despite my hairtype(which folks unknowingly reinforce the premium they place on hair types by trying to strong arm folks out of the convo based on their hair type) I am so glad for NP and the time I spent over there. Dont allow anyone to make you feel bad about being able to see thru this hair game. I was going to go back to relaxing last year, but glad I came to my senses.


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## msa (Apr 6, 2009)

J'adoreHair said:


> I still don't see how a preference for straight hair=hate...I'm in agreement with you..not everybody wants to be cool and curly..some people just want to be sleek and straight  Just because I'm black doesn't mean I can't love straight huuuurrrr.




I guess it's about the motives for loving straight hair, and loving it so much that you'd rather wear your hair like that, exclusively, than your natural hair.


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## missann (Apr 6, 2009)

Southernbella. said:


> I agree with you. I don't think it's a bad thing either, especially since it often happens in reverse. Naturals relax and have an epiphany about all the wonderful things they can do with their hair and talk about how much happier they are and nobody bats an eye. *Why can't it be the same when it's the other way around?*



Maybe it hits a nerve.


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## anon123 (Apr 6, 2009)

msa said:


> I just want to make myself clear.
> 
> IMO, self-hate is a psychological issue that can be manifested in different ways. But, I do not believe that relaxing is indicative of self-hate. "Self-hate" is too serious of an issue to just keep throwing it out there like that.
> 
> ...





Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> MSA i disagree 1000% on this.  Or at least, not with everybody.



I'm going to have to disagree at least on my own experience, too.  Natural hair is hard work for me.  It is draining, physically even.  It is time-consuming.  And if I ever relax, which could happen some day, it won't be because I didn't love my natural hair.  In fact, the only thing that keeps me from relaxing is my extreme preference for the look of my natural hair. If it were just a matter of maintenance, I'd relax in a heartbeat. So when people cite maintenance as a reason for relaxing, I don't discount them so easily.


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## missann (Apr 6, 2009)

J'adoreHair said:


> I still don't see how a preference for straight hair=hate...I'm in agreement with you..not everybody wants to be cool and curly..some people just want to be sleek and straight  Just because I'm black doesn't mean I can't love straight huuuurrrr.



The issue is that virtually all black people prefer straight hair.  There's something behind that (besides preference).  And those who don't wear straight hair often must face internal and external struggles around the decision to wear their own hair the way it grows out of their head.


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## Summer_Rain (Apr 6, 2009)

Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> bwahahahahahahahaahha   I was trying to not say anything about that!!!



I peeped it as I re-read thanks to v2.0 - but oh well! blow job blow out, it could all be the same thing depending on where u at in the mind!


----------



## AtlantaJJ (Apr 6, 2009)

Lboogie said:


> Here's a question I didn't ask in the last one....well actually TWO QUESTIONS.
> 
> What about transitioners and stretchers?
> 
> Do they love or hate themselves?


They have a split personality! LOL 






















J/K - couldn't resist...

ETA: Dag this is a serious thread.... Let me tip out...


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## Carrie A (Apr 6, 2009)

missann said:


> The issue is that virtually all black people prefer straight hair. There's something behind that (besides preference). And those who don't wear straight hair often must face internal and external struggles around the decision to wear their own hair the way it grows out of their head.


 
I often wonder why "we" went seemingly overnight from wearing "the natural" to the Jherri curl and the relaxer.  Was the Afro just a style?  Why didn't more people stay natural?  Why did it take another decade for people to question the relaxer application.


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## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Apr 6, 2009)

mwedzi said:


> I'm going to have to disagree at least on my own experience, too. Natural hair is hard work for me. It is draining, physically even. It is time-consuming. And if I ever relax, which could happen some day, it won't be because I didn't love my natural hair. In fact, the only thing that keeps me from relaxing is my extreme preference for the look of my natural hair. If it were just a matter of maintenance, I'd relax in a heartbeat. So when people cite maintenance as a reason for relaxing, I don't discount them so easily.


 

one of my hair idols


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## missann (Apr 6, 2009)

Carrie A said:


> I often wonder why "we" went seemingly overnight from wearing "the natural" to the Jherri curl and the relaxer.  Was the Afro just a style?  Why didn't more people stay natural?  Why did it take another decade for people to question the relaxer application.



In the time period you're referencing: yes, it was just a style - a style associated with a militant stance.  Hence the correlation today.  The "black and proud" movement was a contrast to the "passive resistant" civil rights mechanism used by King (in effect, "good" Negroes).


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## tocktick (Apr 6, 2009)

Carrie A said:


> I often wonder why "we" went seemingly overnight from wearing "the natural" to the Jherri curl and the relaxer.  Was the Afro just a style?  Why didn't more people stay natural?  Why did it take another decade for people to question the relaxer application.



I'm a member of NP. I remember a thread about the afros there and iirc, the gist of it was that a lot of people who did have afros only did it for style, as opposed to a real love of natural hair. Maybe it was just a part of a bigger cause or just fashion. When they moved away from that, they probably switched back to straight hair maybe in order to conform more or because ideals changed yet again. I say "switched back" because people used to do all kinds of kitchen sink lye relaxers and conks (Malcolm X, anyone?). As far as the jherri curl goes...I never will understand that greasy mess lol . But in a lot of ways, a jherri curl is a bad version of a texlax.


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## v2.0 (Apr 6, 2009)

Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> Msa, seriously, are you saying that natchal folx can't even wear there hair in ponytails?  Why must those with afro textured hair commit to only wearing 1 style for the rest of their life?



Why would you want to make yourself look beautiful?  Beauty should not require any action on your part.


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## anon123 (Apr 6, 2009)

Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> one of my hair idols



A hair supporter!  She knows what I'm talking about, we had this convo in person.  Though I admit to being quite fond of your natural hair and was a little sad when you relaxed, but we all do what we think is best for us at a given time in our lives.  Your hair is growing nicely, btw.

I will admit, though, that I think the reasons most black women relax is because they know little about natural hair except that it's hard to comb and ugly. And we all know why they think it's ugly.  Further, it's so much the default that people don't even consider wearing their hair kinky.  Like 'bella said, people know afro and dreads, that's all I knew, too, until someone showed me the puff and twists.


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## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Apr 6, 2009)

mwedzi said:


> A hair supporter! She knows what I'm talking about, we had this convo in person. Though I admit to being quite fond of your natural hair and was a little sad when you relaxed, but we all do what we think is best for us at a given time in our lives. Your hair is growing nicely, btw.
> 
> I will admit, though, that I think the reasons most black women relax is because they know little about natural hair except that it's hard to comb and ugly. And we all know why they think it's ugly. Further, it's so much the default that people don't even consider wearing their hair kinky. Like 'bella said, people know afro and dreads, that's all I knew, too, until someone showed me the puff and twists.


 
I am in "possible" transition mode   I saw the disappointment in your eyes when we had lunch that day and I mentioned that I may end up going the texlax route.  For me it's not about hatred, it's about ease.  When I was able to put my hair in a bun in like 1 minute after having bed head i knew it was the right thing for me at that time.

I'll likely travel the road of relaxing and natural a few more times in life and i'm ok with that.  I love the thickness and nappyness of my hair but i also love the convenience of all the styling options at my fingertips with it texlaxed.  *shrugs*


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## jennboo (Apr 6, 2009)

The word "hatred" is being thrown around very freely.

I have never aligned myself with the notion that relaxed hair equated to self-hate. Hate is a strong word. 

 I think folks refuse to step outside of themselves and actually think about why the straight hair ideal persists and why so many black people view relaxing as the norm...and just "what you do". And I do understand why a topic like this evokes these really visceral reactions from people.

To those of you who believe that relaxers grew _solely_ out of black people's desire for "manageable" hair, take a look at our history. The conk grew out of men's wanting to fit in with the white's "laid to the side, shiny, slicked back" look. I totally don't think, especially in the case of men, it had much to do with the men's need for increased manageability ...it was all about the look.

 People are so knee-jerked to this whole discussion that they automatically arrive with defense, and pack on the heavy artillery...i personally think it has a lot to do with the fact that many blacks _aren't _so naive to the way eurocentric ideals have permeated our psyche...many do not want to have to come to terms or deal with the fact that they *might* be perpetuating this negative way of thinking about their OWN people and internalizing what has been spoon-fed to us for hundreds of years. 

I think i stated this in a previous post of mine, but these excuses as to why people prefer relaxing "it's just a preference/style choice/manageablity" rhetoric is annoying, kind of like when white folks refuse to acknowledge privilege.


----------



## Crackers Phinn (Apr 6, 2009)

missann said:


> Love the will power -- I need some of that.
> 
> I wanted to ask you about the puff/ponytail when you were natural.  What were you using to secure the puff.  I ask because the puff takes me only 5 seconds, especially when styled wet.  I thought that's why the puff is such a go-to style for many naturals.  I just doubled a large elastic band around my neck and slid it up on my head.
> 
> Also, I wanted to ask how you receive all the compliments since relaxing your hair.  I know people fawn over your straight hair, implying it's a vast improvement over a nappy head.  Do you nip it in the bud or discuss the nappy issue?



I only ever dealt with my natural hair wet, and even then preferably after it had just been washed. To pull my hair in a puff I had to apply the fantasia IC gel in sections almost relaxer like pattern so that when I tied it down for the night it would stay in place. I could wear it in a puff for 3 days before the ends started to knot.  If I tried to do a puff without gel, my hair would knot/loc at the roots.  

Honestly, I got a ton of compliments when I first relaxed but after the newness died down I get about the same number as when natural.  I also think that my fotki traffic went down when I relaxed. 



Southernbella. said:


> And some people don't have any of these issues. It's all relative.



My issue is that the folks who don't have problems seem to be the least compassionate towards those who do. 

Shame on me for putting my hair in a puff?  Really?


----------



## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Apr 6, 2009)

JCoily said:


> I only ever dealt with my natural hair wet, and even then preferably after it had just been washed. To pull my hair in a puff I had to apply the fantasia IC gel in sections almost relaxer like pattern so that when I tied it down for the night it would stay in place. I could wear it in a puff for 3 days before the ends started to knot. If I tried to do a puff without gel, my hair would knot/loc at the roots.
> 
> Honestly, I got a ton of compliments when I first relaxed but after the newness died down I get about the same number as when natural. I also think that my fotki traffic went down when I relaxed.
> 
> ...


 
This sums it up very well for me.


----------



## Crackers Phinn (Apr 6, 2009)

Southernbella. said:


> I agree with you. I don't think it's a bad thing either, especially since it often happens in reverse. Naturals relax and have an epiphany about all the wonderful things they can do with their hair and talk about how much happier they are and nobody bats an eye. Why can't it be the same when it's the other way around?



The difference is that the person who returns to relaxing with an epiphany probably learned a whole lot of something from being natural.

All the person who BC'd has learned is how to use a pair of scissors.
This is the point for them where the questions start, not end.


----------



## likewtr4chklit (Apr 6, 2009)

JCoily said:


> BC'ing is not for the faint of heart, but when you got folks cheerleading 'Do It. Do It.' and then in the BC thread they can't offer any advice other than *put on some make up and earrings.*




 That is exactly what I was thinking about when I took my BC pics.


----------



## Southernbella. (Apr 6, 2009)

JCoily said:


> The difference is that the person who returns to relaxing with an epiphany probably learned a whole lot of something from being natural.
> 
> All the person who BC'd has learned is how to use a pair of scissors.
> This is the point for them where the questions start, not end.


 
I wasn't necessarily talking about just hair styling.


----------



## AnnDriena_ (Apr 7, 2009)

msa said:


> Exactly. I don't get where that keeps coming from. As I said in the other thread people who relax don't automatically hate themselves just like people who are natural don't automatically love themselves.


 
I think some of the posters on here are getting a certain idea about your views from the way you state them. Like relaxed people being in "denial". I don't deny anything. I like my straight hair better.



vivmaiko said:


> I only once saw a website of Asian folk getting "nappy perms" which is really the best i can describe it as. Basically trying to get hair like black people. That is the only time I have ever seen that.
> 
> A lot of people have hair issues...I relaxed my hair at 14, sadly because I was raised with the mistaken notion that I had to keep my hair braided or loose it, and I was tired of getting braided every dang week. I really did. So I relaxed my hair so I could wear it out. But relaxer broke my hair, so I am transitioning.
> 
> ...


----------



## AnnDriena_ (Apr 7, 2009)

jennboo said:


> The word "hatred" is being thrown around very freely.
> 
> I have never aligned myself with the notion that relaxed hair equated to self-hate. Hate is a strong word.
> 
> ...


 
*We don't need an excuse as to why we relax our hair. Because we don't need to answer to anyone.  I'm not asking you for an "excuse" as to why you don't straighten yours.*


----------



## Raspberry (Apr 7, 2009)

TCatt86 said:


> I don't know where that fairytale came from because it's a lie!!! I think some folks that go natural have this dream that their hair will look like Tracy Ellis Ross or Rachel True, etc.  They think they will just be able to wake up with beautiful curls and what not, but for most it won't happen.  I will say however that my natural hair isn't anymore difficult than my relaxed hair, it took me hours to style my hair when I was relaxed it still takes me hours now that I'm natural.



Yep.. and even Tracey Ellis Ross has said that her hair gave her much grief over the years and that she texturizes to get the look so many envy.


----------



## Essensual (Apr 7, 2009)

msa said:


> what does napptural mean?


 
It's just another way to say "natural". It's a carry over from my days on Nappturality.com. I'm happy with my 4b coils. But I also like that I can switch it up whenever I want to.


----------



## Essensual (Apr 7, 2009)

msa said:


> Hmmm. Well, either your hair is natural, meaning the texture/color are the same as they grew out of your scalp, or you're not.
> 
> That's just my opinion.


 
Well...based on the above definition, I guess I'm not natural.


----------



## SelahOco (Apr 7, 2009)

The same women who relax their hair wear corn rows, (usta wear) finger waves, quick weaves, micro braids, dookie braids, twists, etc.  In all the diversity of styles that people wear and choose today, I can count only a few that could "pass" for white.  I understand that there is a historical context and history to our hair choices, but isn't it possible that a sister who wore dookie braids in the 90's and wears a silky rollerset in 2009 just likes her hair a certain way?  Does it have to be some latent brand of self hate?  

If I don't choose to wear it like it grows out of my head, does that mean that I'm rejecting myself?  IMO it's no different than choosing to shave my pits/legs, wearing read lipstick (rather than leaving them brown like God made them), or aching away my unibrow.  I hardly see any woman here trying to emulate a white woman with her hair choices.  I think Sourthern Bella's hair is amazing.  I love Mwedzi's hair.  But there are some naturals that rock their hair in the way that they choose, and I think it's wack.  Not that my opinion matters (cause it doesn't) but my point is I love certain people's hair, styles, the way it looks with their facial structure, etc.

I guess for me I think sometimes it's self hate....and sometimes its just a hairstyle.


----------



## Southernbella. (Apr 7, 2009)

JCoily said:


> I only ever dealt with my natural hair wet, and even then preferably after it had just been washed. To pull my hair in a puff I had to apply the fantasia IC gel in sections almost relaxer like pattern so that when I tied it down for the night it would stay in place. I could wear it in a puff for 3 days before the ends started to knot. If I tried to do a puff without gel, my hair would knot/loc at the roots.
> 
> 
> My issue is that the folks who don't have problems seem to be the least compassionate towards those who do.
> ...


 
I had to laugh at this because it's exactly how I do my ponytails, which is why I don't do them often. @ Applying Fantasia like a relaxer. For ponytails, I have to do this, then hold the hair with one hand and Denman the rest in a backward motion, making sure every single section gets brushed or else there will be a hump somewhere. After all that, I have to put on a scarf to "set" it.


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## Southernbella. (Apr 7, 2009)

Raspberry said:


> Yep.. and even Tracey Ellis Ross has said that her hair gave her much grief over the years and that she texturizes to get the look so many envy.


 
I didn't know she texturized. I wonder what her real texture is.


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## Crackers Phinn (Apr 7, 2009)

Southernbella. said:


> I wasn't necessarily talking about just hair styling.



Me neither.  We've both been on hairboards for some years now.  Now think back to the number of "OMG, WTF did I do?" BC threads.  The pro-negro agenda does not set in on day one for the masses.


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## msa (Apr 7, 2009)

AnnDriena_ said:


> I think some of the posters on here are getting a certain idea about your views from the way you state them. Like relaxed people being in "denial". I don't deny anything. I like my straight hair better.



I was being facetious/sarcastic when I said that. Next time I'll be sure to use a  smiley so that it will be more obvious.

And like I said before, I think self-hatred is too serious of an issue to be thrown around in a hair debate and I have not, and will not, equate relaxing to self-hate.

I hope that one day you do like your own hair. 



Essensual said:


> Well...based on the above definition, I guess I'm not natural.



Hey, it's only my definition. Please don't feel like you have to go by it at all. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In regards to natural hair being too difficult or unmanageable or whatever. I don't fight my hair. If it can't go in a ponytail, I find something different to do with it and move on. My hair just can't do certain things and I'm not going to force it to (like straightening, or ponytails, or anything that requires sleekness/no fuzz). If all it can do is make a shrunken fro then I will do what it wants and I will LOVE it...even if I can only do one style or I have to wear styles I'm not used to or haven't grown to like. I'll learn to like it just like I learned to like my skin color or the size of my eyes.

Everyone should do whatever it is they deem necessary to enjoy their own hair. Me, I don't have to do anything but look at it to enjoy it. If you have to relax to enjoy yours, that's great! Do you.


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## Southernbella. (Apr 7, 2009)

JCoily said:


> Me neither. We've both been on hairboards for some years now. Now think back to the number of "OMG, WTF did I do?" BC threads. The pro-negro agenda does not set in on day one for the masses.


 
You're right, but I think it depends on the person. I was very militantly relaxed back in the day. Whenever these discussions came up, I was always in the threads. Then I started gradually changing my mindset. On my black families board, most of the women were natural, and I remember having discussions about natural/relaxed there, but I did more reading than posting. A lot of what they were saying penetrated and got me to thinking. It was a combination of things that led me to transition, and by the time I BCd, my mind had fully changed.

It really is a mental thing for some people. I could also see it with some former naturals. I can remember a few of them being really into the natural thing way back when I was still relaxed. There was a gradual shift in their thinking (which was reflected in their posts), and by the time they relaxed, their mindset had completely changed. Now, we are on opposite sides of the debate.It's really funny in a way, but I can respect it because I think that's just what happens when you embrace a new ideology over an old one.


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## spelmanlocks (Apr 7, 2009)

likewtr4chklit said:


> It all comes down to folks need to worry about what's inside their own heads rather than what is on someone elses . Relaxers didn't bring down the black community and a whole bunch of sistas wearing fro's and wash N' go's wont fix it.



Great post!


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## LadieCrn (Apr 7, 2009)

Natural hair can be beautiful, Relaxed hair can be beautiful. It all depends on how you like it and most importantly how do you take care of it. My hair is natural, matter fact I have dreads, something I was afraid to mention here because I felt I would immediately be dismissed whenever I make a hair comment.  My sisters have relaxed hair, that I think is absolutely beautiful, long, and healthy. Women come all different kinds of ways, I haven't the time to focus on anyone else's hair choice. Self righteous naturals piss me off, self righteous relaxers piss me off, anything in either extreme needs to be ignored.


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## cupcakes (Apr 7, 2009)

Well personally i love natural hair. I absolutely adore it. I wish i was a natural. Unfortunately i hate short hair so i refuse to do the BC. And i have attempted to transition before but i don't have the patience to wait 2 years for my hair to grow back to its current length. i want waist length now dammit lol. And i have attempted to transition before but i experienced extreme shedding. So Now i texlax and i get the best of both worlds. Relaxing does not equal self hate. I absolutely love the way i look. Im beauriful and my natural texture is too, as well as my relaxed texture.


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## Farida (Apr 7, 2009)

AnnDriena_ said:


> I think some of the posters on here are getting a certain idea about your views from the way you state them. Like relaxed people being in "denial". I don't deny anything. I like my straight hair better.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Farida (Apr 7, 2009)

*No I didn't try to make my natural hair look like straight hair. I have natural small waves brownish red hair. I didn't like it. Like a white women with brown hair wants to be a red head. They like red better. I like my straight shiny black hair.

It doesn't make my skin any lighter and it doesn't put me in denial. I don't like my hair and there are plenty of white people who don't like theirs but they get to have an opinion without it being overanalyzed and putting them in a box.

I don't know of any relaxed women who put down naturals but I see too many militant self righteous naturals who seem to feel the need to CONSTANTLY take relaxed women to task. They use every chance they can to point out all the positives of their natural hair over the negatives of our relaxed hair. 

So what if I don't like my natural texture. SO WHAT if it's natural. I have naturally hairy legs but I shave those too? Do I hate my legs because I don't leave them in the state God gave them to me?*[/quote]

Oh...and you really going to compare natural hair to hairy legs?


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## gabulldawg (Apr 7, 2009)

It all comes down to experiences. It's like my mother, who has short, super soft/fine, 3c-4a hair encouraging me, the _same _daughter who she took to the beauty shop every week to get my 4j super thick APL hair pressed and curled because SHE couldn't even handle it, to go natural!  Just because it works for YOU, doesn't mean it will work for ME! What's so hard to understand about that?? 

Some people are really playing themselves and think they are playing others.  You have "rainbows" growing out of your head and I have "weeds" growing out of mine, and I'm supposed to sit here and look foolish just so I can embrace my heritage.  I've gone the natural route, and after trial and error, came to the conclusion that it's not for me. I have a right to make that choice. I don't like puffs. I don't like twists. I don't like braids. I don't like frizz. I like wearing my hair straight, and I can do something about it. Everyone has different experiences, just like we all have different preferences. Why do we all have to be the same?


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## blasianbeauty (Apr 7, 2009)

I know I'm late but relaxing is a style choice for me.


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## sharentu (Apr 7, 2009)

i think it is a choice.  as a person who had her hair permed from the age of 11, i have attempted to go natural only once before now.  now that i am almost fully natural i will not knock someone for the choice they made.  for me i wanted my hair permed when i was little because my mother was a horrible braider (her being a natural until i was in my mid teens, she rocked an afro, loved my mom's hair ).  she finally said you do your hair, which i did and proceeded to make it break off badly.  i got the perm for manageability period.  

all thru my hairstory i have tried to treat my hair right, to the best of my knowledge.  now my transition was about giving my hair a break and to truly learn about my hair.  i am happy that i did this for me.  but if i change my mind tomorrow, i would get me a perm quick, because i now know how to care for my hair, so that it remains healthy.


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## Poranges (Apr 7, 2009)

cupcakes said:


> Well personally i love natural hair. I absolutely adore it. I wish i was a natural. Unfortunately i hate short hair so i refuse to do the BC. And i have attempted to transition before but i don't have the patience to wait 2 years for my hair to grow back to its current length. i want waist length now dammit lol. And i have attempted to transition before but i experienced extreme shedding. So Now i texlax and i get the best of both worlds. Relaxing does not equal self hate. I absolutely love the way i look. Im beauriful and my natural texture is too, as well as my relaxed texture.



So true! I was natural through out my childhood and half of my teenage years, loved my natural hair but I just didn't look good!!! I will go natural again someday but I want long hair now! My fro was huge and long and I rocked a short cut for a while but now, I just want long hair...and transitioning will be a set back...I love my texture and everything but I have an edgy look with my hair bone straight, which I love. So for me its not about loving anything or embracing anything, its about how I personally want to look and a look I like to have...I'll do the same with my daughters, natural for a looong time and they'll have the choice whether they would like to relax or not at 16-17, like I did....curly hair just DON'T look fly on me, so I gotta do what I gotta do, what others do with their hair is their business but I know whats best for me.


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## Poranges (Apr 7, 2009)

gabulldawg said:


> It all comes down to experiences. It's like my mother, who has short, super soft/fine, 3c-4a hair encouraging me, the _same _daughter who she took to the beauty shop every week to get my 4j super thick APL hair pressed and curled because SHE couldn't even handle it, to go natural!  Just because it works for YOU, doesn't mean it will work for ME! What's so hard to understand about that??
> 
> Some people are really playing themselves and think they are playing others.  You have "rainbows" growing out of your head and I have "weeds" growing out of mine, and I'm supposed to sit here and look foolish just so I can embrace my heritage.  I've gone the natural route, and after trial and error, came to the conclusion that it's not for me. I have a right to make that choice. I don't like puffs. I don't like twists. I don't like braids. I don't like frizz. I like wearing my hair straight, and I can do something about it. Everyone has different experiences, just like we all have different preferences. Why do we all have to be the same?



In total agreement .

I don't want to make a statement, I know my heritage, I don't care about embracing anything or seeing any light, I just want good looking hair, point blank, its not even deep for me. I remember when I got my first press at 13, I liked it so much that I asked for a pressing comb for Christmas, I kept on burning my hair trying to keep it straight 24/7 so relaxing was just a more convenient alternative to get the look I want. Natural hair is beautiful, just not on me.


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## Nice & Wavy (Apr 7, 2009)

I love my natural texture but it's not the bestest of the best either.  I've been both relaxed and natural and I think that if I chose to become relaxed again, this time...I would know what to do to it to make it work.

I've been struggling lately to texlax it....and I have the feeling I won't, but...you never know. 

I love Supergirl's hair as a relaxed head....absolutely beautiful and longggggggggggggg!  I love Cichelle's hair as a natural head.....absolutely beautiful and longggggggggggggggg!  I love PatTodd's hair as a texlaxed head...beautiful and getting longer and longer as time goes by.  

IT'S ALL GOOD!!!

If I choose too...then, it would be my choice. 

All the best to everyone who leaves it natural or wear it texlaxed or relaxed...it's all good!


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## anon123 (Apr 7, 2009)

Southernbella. said:


> I had to laugh at this because it's exactly how I do my ponytails, which is why I don't do them often. @ Applying Fantasia like a relaxer. For ponytails, I have to do this, then hold the hair with one hand and Denman the rest in a backward motion, making sure every single section gets brushed or else there will be a hump somewhere. After all that, I have to put on a scarf to "set" it.




That's how y'all do ponytails?  No wonder mine look so different . . .


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## that_1_grrrl (Apr 7, 2009)

I completely agree with MSA. I do not think people even realize their attitudes about natural hair. But it's obvious when reading posts there's a jab here about natural hair and a jab there about natural hair.

It's the same to me when there are discussions about light skin v. dark skin and people refuse to believe they're love for light skin is indicative of something larger. Or the 1,000,001 posts about "This is what's wrong with Black women/men/the whole race as a whole. Or when people find the need to differentiate themselves from "those Negroes" over there because they're ghetto/loud/etc. 

Let's not pretend that we do not have self-hate issues.


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## gabulldawg (Apr 7, 2009)

Rosie8604 said:


> I completely agree with MSA. I do not think people even realize their attitudes about natural hair. But it's obvious when reading posts there's a jab here about natural hair and a jab there about natural hair.
> 
> It's the same to me when there are discussions about light skin v. dark skin and people refuse to believe they're love for light skin is indicative of something larger. Or the 1,000,001 posts about "This is what's wrong with Black women/men/the whole race as a whole. Or when people find the need to differentiate themselves from "those Negroes" over there because they're ghetto/loud/etc.
> 
> *Let's not pretend that we do not have self-hate issues*.


 
But on the flip side, let's not try to make yourself (not just directed at you, rosie) feel better by lumping those that relax into the "self-hate" category, and trying to place yourself on some kind of pedestal as if you are above it all.  Natural hair doesn't exclude you from self-hate. It's what's in your brain that's more important than what's on your head. 

People have many different reasons for their preferences. You can't tell someone their own reasoning behind their choice.


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## babs19 (Apr 7, 2009)

*~Mocha~* said:


> I dont understand how getting a relaxer equate to self hate. I have read so many articles, boards, youtube videos about black women and self hate because they relax their hair.
> 
> Other races do chemically process their hair but doesnt get looked as self hating. Caucasians get curly perms, as well other types of permanet hair straightening.
> If you go to the sephora website more than half of the reviews on phyto is from caucasians and other races not just blacks. But we are looked at as self hating. I love myself, I love being black, I relax my hair as a style choice. Just like how Becky dye her hair or Molly straightened her curly hair or whatever.. Im so tired of black woman self hate topics. I mean seriously if we hated being black straightening our hair will not void the fact we still got black skin.



When it comes down to it its not really about the hair its about black people in general. Fro some reason we seem to be the only race who has to fine faults with our own people. majority of the other races who get these services done have no problems because no one cares. when i black person does the same another black woman automatically feels that the world must back her opinion. IMO people need to be more concerned about there own lives because we are all individuals with free will.

Do people feel that being natural makes you 'more black  and in touch with there heritage' then those who are relaxed. hair is hair.


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## taz007 (Apr 7, 2009)

msa said:


> What other "hairstyles" require you to cut your hair off in order to change the style?



I was natural for 7 years and I HAD to cut my hair off to change the style.  My hair was tore up!


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## Nice & Wavy (Apr 7, 2009)

Rosie8604 said:


> I completely agree with MSA. I do not think people even realize their attitudes about natural hair. But it's obvious when reading posts there's a jab here about natural hair and a jab there about natural hair.
> 
> It's the same to me when there are discussions about light skin v. dark skin and people refuse to believe they're love for light skin is indicative of something larger. Or the 1,000,001 posts about "This is what's wrong with Black women/men/the whole race as a whole. Or when people find the need to differentiate themselves from "those Negroes" over there because they're ghetto/loud/etc.
> 
> *Let's not pretend that we do not have self-hate issues*.


 
Really?  I don't hate myself at all...I love myself whether I'm relaxed or natural.

I think its gonna be good to come out of this thread now.

Have a good day ladies.


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## that_1_grrrl (Apr 7, 2009)

gabulldawg said:


> But on the flip side, let's not try to make yourself (not just directed at you, rosie) feel better by lumping those that relax into the "self-hate" category, and trying to place yourself on some kind of pedestal as if you are above it all.  Natural hair doesn't exclude you from self-hate. It's what's in your brain that's more important than what's on your head.
> 
> People have many different reasons for their preferences. You can't tell someone their own reasoning behind their choice.



Didn't say that. That's why I said "we". We all have self-hate issues, and I wish people would stop denying it. It's ridiculous. We can not get rid of these issues if we keep pretending it is not there. It isn't our fault. White society has fed this to us for centuries. But for the future generations, can we please start admitting that these feelings are wrong, so they can grow up with some of these issues?

I am tired of just la-la-la-ing over everything. I don't want my children growing up in a world where they think there is something wrong with their natural hair, their dark skin, or truly believe that Black women are mean and nasty by nature.

We can not get to that point if we keep denying it's there. That is all I am saying.


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## gabulldawg (Apr 7, 2009)

Rosie8604 said:


> Didn't say that. That's why I said "we". We all have self-hate issues, and I wish people would stop denying it. It's ridiculous. We can not get rid of these issues if we keep pretending it is not there. It isn't our fault. White society has fed this to us for centuries. But for the future generations, can we please start admitting that these feelings are wrong, so they can grow up with some of these issues?
> 
> I am tired of just la-la-la-ing over everything. I don't want my children growing up in a world where they think there is something wrong with their natural hair, their dark skin, or truly believe that Black women are mean and nasty by nature.
> 
> We can not get to that point if we keep denying it's there. That is all I am saying.


 
IMO, people need to speak for themselves! I wasn't raised to hate myself. I was raised to love myself and my culture. I wasn't raised thinking that any color was "better" than another. I wasn't raised thinking natural hair was ugly. I didn't have a relaxer slapped on my head as a toddler. I was raised to make my own choices, without caring about what others think. Just because YOU (not just you, rosie) have issues with your race doesn't mean that EVERYONE does. And just because someone chemicall straightens their hair doesn't mean they have self-hate issues!

Some people REALLY don't have self-hate issues! Why is it hard to believe? Of course, that doesn't mean that people don't have issues, but it's not anyone's place to speak for everyone.  Having a relaxer doesn't automatically mean you have some underlying issues that need to be addressed.


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## that_1_grrrl (Apr 7, 2009)

And other non-White races have self-hate problems too. It's not just Black folks. That's the "joy" of being colonized. But I am nothing but Black, so I can not speak for them. I am not saying anyone has to stop relaxing or that relaxing = self-hate, but I think the negative attitudes that certain people keep spouting about natural hair is a problem. I am tired of hearing us put ourselves down is all. I do it too, but I am not denying it, and I am working hard to weed that out because it's wrong to me.

And, I know there are relaxed heads that do have a positive outlook on natural hair. 

That is all.


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## taz007 (Apr 7, 2009)

Rosie8604 said:


> Didn't say that. That's why I said "we". We all have self-hate issues, and I wish people would stop denying it. It's ridiculous. We can not get rid of these issues if we keep pretending it is not there. It isn't our fault. White society has fed this to us for centuries. But for the future generations, can we please start admitting that these feelings are wrong, so they can grow up with some of these issues?
> 
> I am tired of just la-la-la-ing over everything. *I don't want my children growing up in a world where they think there is something wrong with their natural hair, their dark skin, or truly believe that Black women are mean and nasty by nature.*
> 
> We can not get to that point if we keep denying it's there. That is all I am saying.



IMHO, this is something that is learned in the home.  We have a rainbow of colors in my immediate family.  My DARK chocolate sister is the most beautiful and articulate of us all.  Trust that she does NOT have self hate issues as it was not an ISSUE in our home.

I think that I will bow out of this as well...


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## that_1_grrrl (Apr 7, 2009)

gabulldawg said:


> IMO, people need to speak for themselves! I wasn't raised to hate myself. I was raised to love myself and my culture. I wasn't raised thinking that any color was "better" than another. I wasn't raised thinking natural hair was ugly. I didn't have a relaxer slapped on my head as a toddler. I was raised to make my own choices, without caring about what others think. Just because YOU (not just you, rosie) have issues with your race doesn't mean that EVERYONE does. And just because someone chemicall straightens their hair doesn't mean they have self-hate issues!
> 
> Some people REALLY don't have self-hate issues! Why is it hard to believe? Of course, that doesn't mean that people don't have issues, but it's not anyone's place to speak for everyone.  Having a relaxer doesn't automatically mean you have some underlying issues that need to be addressed.



Well, if you don't, good for you.


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## that_1_grrrl (Apr 7, 2009)

taz007 said:


> IMHO, this is something that is learned in the home.  We have a rainbow of colors in my immediate family.  My DARK chocolate sister is the most beautiful and articulate of us all.  Trust that she does NOT have self hate issues as it was not an ISSUE in our home.
> 
> I think that I will bow out of this as well...



I agree it's learned at home, but there is still a world of people who stir children wrong. I will teach my children to love themselves, but I can not be their teachers, their friends, and the random person down the street too.


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## gabulldawg (Apr 7, 2009)

Rosie8604 said:


> I agree it's learned at home, but there is still a world of people who stir children wrong. I will teach my children to love themselves, but I can not be their teachers, their friends, and the random person down the street too.


 
But you can teach them not to value the opinions of the "others." Of course the majority of blacks experience a time in their lives where they do question their heritage and their wealth and their beauty, etc., and may experience a degree of self-hate, but that's a part of life as a minority. Ultimately, if they are raised "correctly," a black person CAN grow to love themself and their culture! It's not impossible.


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## that_1_grrrl (Apr 7, 2009)

gabulldawg said:


> But you can teach them not to value the opinions of the "others." Of course the majority of blacks experience a time in their lives where they do question their heritage and their wealth and their beauty, etc., and may experience a degree of self-hate, but that's a part of life as a minority. Ultimately, if they are raised "correctly," a black person CAN grow to love themself and their culture! It's not impossible.



I agree. I just don't believe they will be 100% free of the problem, you know? It will manifest itself somewhere. I am just so tired of hearing us put ourselves down. I hear it everyday, everywhere I go.

But I guess I can thank God it wasn't as bad as it used to be (ugh, listening to my grandmother drives me bonkers), and we are slowly but surely getting there. One day...


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## Kurlee (Apr 7, 2009)

taz007 said:


> IMHO, this is something that is learned in the home.  We have a rainbow of colors in my immediate family.  My DARK chocolate sister is the most beautiful and articulate of us all.  Trust that she does NOT have self hate issues as it was not an ISSUE in our home.
> 
> I think that I will bow out of this as well...


I agree and disagree.  People are socialized by society, so yes while family and upbringing does play a role, when that child goes to school, watches movies, reads magazines, sees movies, watches videos, starts dating, etc, these experiences help to shape their identity. So as much as your family may be on point with raising your sister, there are are external factors that they simply have no control over.


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## Evolving78 (Apr 7, 2009)

gabulldawg said:


> But you can teach them not to value the opinions of the "others." Of course the majority of blacks experience a time in their lives where they do question their heritage and their wealth and their beauty, etc., and may experience a degree of self-hate, but that's a part of life as a minority. Ultimately, if they are raised "correctly," a black person CAN grow to love themself and their culture! It's not impossible.



it is hard though, when you have your own race of people telling you something God-given is ugly, or bad and that you need a perm to make it better.  that is something that a lot of natural heads have to go through.  not saying that it will make them give in and relax, but it makes the journey harder.  it is really hard when you are a little girl and you have folks telling you those negative things left and right.  your parents can only do so much.


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## that_1_grrrl (Apr 7, 2009)

Okay these ladies articulated it better than I could.

I am coming from a place where I dealt with these issues in the worst way. When I was in high school, I hated everything about being Black because all around me, that is what I was being told to feel. I have been working so hard to overcome that, and it gets so discouraging when I have to hear others say such negative things about being Black. It's enough to make me cry. It is really painful. 

And what's worse is some people have the attitude (not talking about anyone in here) that there is absolutely nothing wrong with thinking dark skin or nappy hair is ugly, unmanageable, etc. It's just . That's how that thinking got into my head in the first place. When people think it is okay to make fun of someone for being dark or for needing a perm, what do people expect? Or when you grow up and everyone tells you your hair is so unmanageable. I just wish I could at least come to a site about Black hair without hearing people talking negatively about natural hair.



Kurlee said:


> I agree and disagree.  People are socialized by society, so yes while family and upbringing does play a role, when that child goes to school, watches movies, reads magazines, sees movies, watches videos, starts dating, etc, these experiences help to shape their identity. So as much as your family may be on point with raising your sister, there are are external factors that they simply have no control over.





shortdub78 said:


> it is hard though, when you have your own race of people telling you something God-given is ugly, or bad and that you need a perm to make it better.  that is something that a lot of natural heads have to go through.  not saying that it will make them give in and relax, but it makes the journey harder.  it is really hard when you are a little girl and you have folks telling you those negative things left and right.  your parents can only do so much.


----------



## Kurlee (Apr 7, 2009)

Rosie8604 said:


> *And other non-White races have self-hate problems too. It's not just Black folks. *That's the "joy" of being colonized. But I am nothing but Black, so I can not speak for them. I am not saying anyone has to stop relaxing or that relaxing = self-hate, but I think the negative attitudes that certain people keep spouting about natural hair is a problem. I am tired of hearing us put ourselves down is all. I do it too, but I am not denying it, and I am working hard to weed that out because it's wrong to me.
> 
> And, I know there are relaxed heads that do have a positive outlook on natural hair.
> 
> That is all.



In every thread someone says this, but it's really irrelevant.  If you have a problem with yourself, pointing out who else has the problem too does not help you in any way.  Also, black folk, I think are ousted as "most" different" from white folk because of our hair texture and facial features....... With that said, the fact that the majority of black women DRASTICALLY alter their hair texture on a regular basis seems like a deeper issue.  If it was say half of black women or less, I could see it as a style choice, but for most to feel that they HAVE to relax, most don't know what their real texture is like, most think it's too hard to deal with their real hair is a problem with the person and their identity, not simply a style choice.  

I have natural 4a hair and I have to be honest. It took time for me to understand my hair and learn how to treat it.  I'm still learning.  Some days, I want to relax it or at least texlax it because the work it takes sometimes is overwhelming. I understand why some relax. It's easier (in the sense that it is faster), plain and simple.  Whenever I get the urge to relax, I get my hair flat ironed (twice a year).  After a few days of that, I am more than happy to wash my hair and go back to what it was.  

The point I am trying to make is, in a society where our hair is not the norm, products are not made to cater to us in the mainstream (thank god for online shopping) and anything longer than neck length is considered a weave, it is hard to love and accept your hair in it's natural state.  It's so much easier to gloss over the BS and just relax.  I do however think that it is important for everyone at some point in their lives to really know what their real hair is like. I think that is important.  I think it easier for blacks to assimilate with relaxed hair and I think on some subconscious level, many black people feel that they have no choice.


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## that_1_grrrl (Apr 7, 2009)

I know it's irrelevant. That was the point I was trying to make about people constantly saying, "Other races don't blah blah blah." I am tired of the constant comparisons to people of other races, especially considering they are usually wrong.

And I agree 100% with what you're saying.



Kurlee said:


> In every thread someone says this, but it's really irrelevant.  If you have a problem with yourself, pointing out who else has the problem too does not help you in any way.  Also, black folk, I think are ousted as "most" different" from white folk because of our hair texture and facial features....... With that said, the fact that the majority of black women DRASTICALLY alter their hair texture on a regular basis seems like a deeper issue.  If it was say half of black women or less, I could see it as a style choice, but for most to feel that they HAVE to relax, most don't know what their real texture is like, most think it's too hard to deal with their real hair is a problem with the person and their identity, not simply a style choice.
> 
> I have natural 4a hair and I have to be honest. It took time for me to understand my hair and learn how to treat it.  I'm still learning.  Some days, I want to relax it or at least texlax it because the work it takes sometimes is overwhelming. I understand why some relax. It's easier (in the sense that it is faster), plain and simple.  Whenever I get the urge to relax, I get my hair flat ironed (twice a year).  After a few days of that, I am more than happy to wash my hair and go back to what it was.
> 
> The point I am trying to make is, in a society where our hair is not the norm, products are not made to cater to us in the mainstream (thank god for online shopping) and anything longer than neck length is considered a weave, it is hard to love and accept your hair in it's natural state.  It's so much easier to gloss over the BS and just relax.  I do however think that it is important for everyone at some point in their lives to really know what their real hair is like. I think that is important.  I think it easier for blacks to assimilate with relaxed hair and I think on some subconscious level, many black people feel that they have no choice.


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## lonelysky (Apr 7, 2009)

basketballbabe03 said:


> This could be a different issue because of having two completely different textures in your head. From my experience, it can be difficult to deal with the two textures, so the people that are posting might be talking about the two textures and not the new growth. For me, when I was in transition, it was much harder for me to deal with then having my hair 100 percent relaxed or 100 percent natural.


 
I was going to try to read the whole thread before I commented, but this post summs up my sentiment about my natural hair. 

I love my natural hair. I'm not texlaxed, but I like it when new growth comes in, and my beutician doesn't get my hair bone straight anyway. I think that relaxed black hair is prettier than most stright white hair (there are some white girls out their with coarser types that is as pretty as ours straight). 

For me the problem with my natural hair, and really the relaxed part of my hair for that matter, is that the two textures at the same time is difficult to manage. I would be happy to be 'nappy' lol. 

The thing that is stopping me from going completely natural right now is that I want to have lenght first. I like to have long hair, and I do not want to do a BC until I get my hair to the length that I desire. I don't want to transition because working with four different textures of hair is extremely difficult for me. 

When I get to my desired lenght relaxed, then I might considering the process of transitioning. 

But I like my relaxed hair. I relax as a style choice. I definitely believe that there is a european standard of beauty in our society. However, I don't think that relaxing necessarily correlates to conforming to that style of beauty. 

I don't know if anyone has noticed, but relaxed black hair is quite different than most white hair...

ffrant:


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## that_1_grrrl (Apr 7, 2009)

I couldn't agree more. I love that it has some weight to it. I am not really into the flat, limp look that a lot of White girls have. 



jcsavestheday said:


> I was going to try to read the whole thread before I commented, but this post summs up my sentiment about my natural hair.
> 
> I love my natural hair. I'm not texlaxed, but I like it when new growth comes in, and my beutician doesn't get my hair bone straight anyway. *I think that relaxed black hair is prettier than most stright white hair (there are some white girls out their with coarser types that is as pretty as ours straight). *
> 
> ...


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## luckiestdestiny (Apr 7, 2009)

anti-babymama said:


> dreads


 
OOOOOOOOOOOH!

(I'm instigating and I'm natural )


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## luckiestdestiny (Apr 7, 2009)

CandiceC said:


> I agree.
> 
> Also if you want to go from long hair to short, you have to cut your hair.
> 
> ...


 
Not really. Hair is dead. The body isn't. You don't cut off your arm and it grows back but hair does. If you get a face lift, you're changing the underlying muscle and everything and it doesn't go back to normal.  Hair always does because no matter what it grows and grows.  So hair alterations are more temporary in my opinion.  I'm prob one of the only naturals who don't think that relaxing is self loathing (all the time). I think it's a choice and WHATEVER. Let everyone do what they want and live their life.


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## tmrskltn (Apr 7, 2009)

Ok so i been reading through this HILARIOUS (4 lack of a better word) thread, Iam all natural, i read some peoples comments and i believes that 1 most of us are just ignorant and don't know anything but realxed hair. iam mixed and my hair was natural but i remember my mom pressing it by the stove, and the smell of the grease/hair burning....she would not relax me though. i had not a clue how to do my hair so i relaxed and that was it never even thought about it. But as i got older i noticed that my hair was not as thick as it was when i was younger and i also hated getting perms( the burning and sores) 2 much so i started thinking hmmmm i wonder how it would be to have natural hair? So i did it transitioned and then chopped had about 4 in of new growth. It was the best/n most informed decision i have made for my hair. Iam enjoying my journey and reading of the other ladies on this journey also. 

This is for all 4/A/B people i look through some of ur fotki's and i think WOW it is a shame that the world(ourselves included) have told you that your hair is nappy, ugly.......I personally think it is some of those most beautiful hair i have ever seen ....the texture and thickness, I think that we have the most different hair than any other ethnicity. Let's start enbracing that difference and understand that "It's a BEAUTIFUL THING.


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## luckiestdestiny (Apr 7, 2009)

msa said:


> What about them? Transitioners are neither exempt from self-hate or self-love, if those are the terms people want to use. There are numerous threads about people transitioning only because their hair or scalp couldn't handle relaxers. And there are people who are transitioning just to be a straight natural. There are transitioners who straighten their new growth every single week, never even giving their natural texture a chance. Then there are transitioners who actually love their natural hair.
> 
> And from what I've seen, people stretch in order to make it easier for them to relax the next time and to give their relaxed hair a break from chemicals. In fact, is the stretchers who seem to make the most disparaging comments about natural hair.


 
Interesting. I'm sure there are also transitioners who stretch so that there's not a line of tension from straight to curly...not just because they don't want to see their natural texture.

As for giving natural texture a chance I'm sure there are naturals who straighten to reduce knots...I'm one of them. I am either flat ironed straight or in braids (cornrows w/ only my hair) like now so as to reduce knotting so that I can retain length better cause I know how my hair works.  

So there are also these assumptions that self love=natural hair. You could hate your hair but be naturally kinky all you want and you could straighten and love yourself. I don't think it can just be defined by one thing such as how kinky or straight the hair is. There are reasons that people do this, and I think that is more important, and you can't get inside someone's head to determine their reasons.  I think it can't be assumed either.


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## AtlantaJJ (Apr 7, 2009)

gabulldawg said:


> It all comes down to experiences. It's like my mother, who has short, super soft/fine, 3c-4a hair encouraging me, the _same _daughter who she took to the beauty shop every week to get my 4j super thick APL hair pressed and curled because SHE couldn't even handle it, to go natural!  Just because it works for YOU, doesn't mean it will work for ME! What's so hard to understand about that??
> 
> Some people are really playing themselves and think they are playing others.  You have "rainbows" growing out of your head and I have "weeds" growing out of mine, and I'm supposed to sit here and look foolish just so I can embrace my heritage.  I've gone the natural route, and after trial and error, came to the conclusion that it's not for me. I have a right to make that choice. I don't like puffs. I don't like twists. I don't like braids. I don't like frizz. I like wearing my hair straight, and I can do something about it. Everyone has different experiences, just like we all have different preferences. *Why do we all have to be the same?*



I totally agree with this point of view. What is wrong with doing you boo?

My hair is not a political statement. It's been said before I am not my hair!  The way style and wear my hair is based on my CURRENT personal aesthetics only (subject to change without notice).

I do not project my preference on to others head's nor do I make judgments about others based on the way they style their hair. Life is too short and I just don't see the point of expending that kind of energy over things beyond my control anyway. GABD is right, we don't have to be the same! 

Do you boo!


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## luckiestdestiny (Apr 7, 2009)

Southernbella. said:


> I think we are all saying the same things here:
> 
> Some women relax their hair because it's just a style choice.
> 
> ...


 

I totally agree. 

 Just like 

some people are natural because they have problems with chemicals but would be relaxed in 2 seconds if they could.

Some people are natural because they originally had problems with chemicals but now love their natural hair so they stayed that way.  Maybe because it's something they did since they were younger, who knows, but now are committed to natural hair.

Some people are natural because they want to be and it's a personal decision and they feel empowered.

Some people are natural because they want to be and feel like it makes them superior.  It can make them feel that they can tell others what to do w/ their lives in addition to feeling empowered..


Heck I'm a natural and I know that because I've felt it from other naturals.
I think everyone should not assume anyone's motives and just live their lives happily.  I love that this forum is one where everyone can come together and share knowledge and love hair care in general.  No worries no judgements.


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## luckiestdestiny (Apr 7, 2009)

CandiceC said:


> Hope I don't get in trouble  , but I have seen some black women who look awkward with straight hair. Can't say for sure if it's relaxed or pressed, but the straight hair just doesn't seem to go with some black women.
> 
> Has anyone ever thought that?


 

Totally agree. Some women look great curly or kinky and some look great w/ straight hair.


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## luckiestdestiny (Apr 7, 2009)

LisaLisa1908 said:


> More power to anybody that does what they want with their hair.
> 
> It is not for me or anybody else to determine their motives for them.


 

PREACH.  Wish I would've said this instead of my million posts.  This is exactly what i was getting at.


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## cutiebe2 (Apr 7, 2009)

luckiestdestiny said:


> Totally agree. Some women look great curly or kinky and some look great w/ straight hair.


This is me. I think I would look best with a braid out that fell around APL. I have a chubby face naturally so I need big hair to balance..


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## yuriko (Apr 7, 2009)

Its funny how the natural versus relaxer thing polarizes people, I must have been 17 when I transferred to college in the USA from Nigeria. And you know how much I avoided the afro-centric cult in my college. By their standards, you had to be natural with a puff or have locs, had to dress and behave a certain way to prove that you love yourself. I think that people who truly love their hair so much would not care so much to point out that the relaxed chics have issues. It is the natural that has something to say about the relaxed woman that has issues and vice versa. If you are busy talking about other people's hair, then something is wrong with you

Most of my close friends are Vietnamese, and they all hate their hair because its too straight, too limp, will not hold a curl, has no volume etc. I don't understand why I have to love my hair just because I am black. I like my hair but would like it better if it didn't tangle so much, and its my hair I have a right to complain about it. Oh I and also don't like my feet, they are really slender and I have problem finding shoes that fit me, so I guess that is just a lot of self hate.

It is normal to want to improve your appearance, You could ask the most beautiful woman what she does not like about herself and she would point out 5 body parts in a split second.


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## mahogany_horizons (Apr 7, 2009)

Liyah said:


> The rule is, black women would rather be bald with dry, thin, flaky hair then to actually let their hair grow out and be natural. I have seen old ladies with BIG bakd spots in their hair, still going to the beauty salon to get that relaxer, why? They obviously think the HAM they have on their head is better than a nice lush afro, they are too scared to even try.
> 
> You have to admit there is a problem when women are walking around with busted weaves (yall know the matted kind), bald spots, thin air, no edges, dandruff flaky scalp but when asked if they have ever thought of going natural, they just about die at the thought! So, you mean your HAM on the top of your head is better than what your hair would look like natural?


 
I'VE BEEN RELAXED SINCE I was six but   that mess is funny right there!!  AND I AGREE WITH YOU.  I never had the issues as mentioned above, but I see chicks like this all the time.  They'd rather have thin, scraggly looking ratty hair with big patches of dandruff and bald spots relaxed, than to be natural!!

I have even started watching the old black ladies I know, and lots of them have bald spots in the middle of their heads  that range from the size of a quarter to the size of my palm.  And for what?  So they can keep their hair straight!  

If I had such issues, I would go natural tomorrow!

But we must admit this problem is huge.

I had a great family outing last weekend.  A woman with natural hair rode by on the opposite escalator, and I heard my father whisper to my husband

"Good lord, I know her hair is giving her a headache," 

My husband chuckled but then he looked at me, b/c we are always having those conversations about black women putting hair health before lenght.  He looks for women with unhealthy relaxed hair now too.

But it's attitudes like my father, and others like him that make it hard for people to embrace their natural hair.

And some people just like relaxed hair.  I know when I am 12 weeks post, it gets difficult to comb through my hair if it's not in sections...I don't have issues with breakage....the hair underneath is curly.  I think I'm 3c....some parts like the nape might even be 3b...my hairline might be 4aish......I'm not sure....I'm very suprized that my natural hair has such soft curls..

But without the proper knowledge, it is hard to care for, for me!

bUT i DON'T feel ashamed, even at 12 weeks post....I think natural hair is cool...I just think some of us don't know, dont' care to learn how to work with it, I'm a little of both....and then the second, some don't want their fathers, husbands/friends, etc, acting side eyed about natural hair.


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## MA2010 (Apr 7, 2009)

yuriko said:


> Its funny how the natural versus relaxer thing polarizes people, I must have been 17 when I transferred to college in the USA from Nigeria. And you know how much I avoided the afro-centric cult in my college. By their standards, you had to be natural with a puff or have locs, had to dress and behave a certain way to prove that you love yourself. *I think that people who truly love their hair so much would not care so much to point out that the relaxed chics have issues. It is the natural that has something to say about the relaxed woman that has issues and vice versa. If you are busy talking about other people's hair, then something is wrong with you*
> 
> Most of my close friends are Vietnamese, and they all hate their hair because its too straight, too limp, will not hold a curl, has no volume etc. I don't understand why I have to love my hair just because I am black. I like my hair but would like it better if it didn't tangle so much, and its my hair I have a right to complain about it. Oh I and also don't like my feet, they are really slender and I have problem finding shoes that fit me, so I guess that is just a lot of self hate.
> 
> It is normal to want to improve your appearance, You could ask the most beautiful woman what she does not like about herself and she would point out 5 body parts in a split second.



Great point!


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## Kurlee (Apr 7, 2009)

yuriko said:


> Its funny how the natural versus relaxer thing polarizes people, I must have been 17 when I transferred to college in the USA from Nigeria. And you know how much I avoided the afro-centric cult in my college. By their standards, you had to be natural with a puff or have locs, had to dress and behave a certain way to prove that you love yourself. I* think that people who truly love their hair so much would not care so much to point out that the relaxed chics have issues. It is the natural that has something to say about the relaxed woman that has issues and vice versa. If you are busy talking about other people's hair, then something is wrong with you*
> 
> Most of my close friends are Vietnamese, and they all hate their hair because its too straight, too limp, will not hold a curl, has no volume etc. I don't understand why I have to love my hair just because I am black. I like my hair but would like it better if it didn't tangle so much, and its my hair I have a right to complain about it. Oh I and also don't like my feet, they are really slender and I have problem finding shoes that fit me, so I guess that is just a lot of self hate.
> 
> It is normal to want to improve your appearance, You could ask the most beautiful woman what she does not like about herself and she would point out 5 body parts in a split second.



I'm going to have to disagree with the bolded.  Many people who are natural WERE relaxed, so maybe they speak from experience and being on both sides of the fence?  For most of us on this board to still not know what our hair looks like without chemicals seems weird to me.  Whenever I read the threads in the hair board about people transitioning the first question is almost always "what is my hair type?" or what is it going to look like?  To me, for a grown person to not know what their real hair looks like is sooooooooooooo weird. Your hair, skin, facial features and perception of yourself are a part of your identity and to only figure it out past your twenties is ODD.  Now with that said, I don't think people with relaxed hair are bad or "unenlightened", so to speak, but I do feel that collectively as "black people", there are things we do not know and understand about ourselves that many other non-black groups know and learn naturally.  This MUST have an effect on our self-esteem and self-perception to some degree. I think it is a problem that we need to confront because there is a reason why these "identity issues" are so widespread among black people. I don't think it is a coincidence.


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## PrissyMiss (Apr 7, 2009)

In the words of Flava Flav.... wowwwwwwwwwwww. Man, are we still on this topic. This is like asking whether Jesus is black or white. Lol. Who cares? Hey, if you think being natural means that you have truly accepted your heritage vs. those who are relaxed, then okay. That is your opinion. 

Just to be clear, African- Americans have more important issues that should be discussed, and believe it or not, it does not involve hair. Yes some are hating themselves, but there is also an equal amount that are not. Some posters in this thread need to accept the fact that relaxing does not necessarily equal self-hate. Furthermore, I think most in this thread have strayed away from the op's original question,unless she had other intentions.

eta: Yes I have been both and enjoyed both journies.


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## Br*nzeb*mbsh~ll (Apr 7, 2009)

*um, locks....*


msa said:


> What other "hairstyles" require you to cut your hair off in order to change the style?


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## manter26 (Apr 7, 2009)

i haven't read all 33 pages of posts, but just to comment on the original topic. I don't think white women (or any straight haired ladies) who curly perm their hair get into this discussion with those with straight hair. 

Curly perm is also a *style*. And yes, u can probably put a relaxer over it to reverse it, but i'm sure all ur hair would fall out. So really it is another style option that requires growing out and cutting off.


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## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Apr 7, 2009)

qt_pie said:


> In the words of Flava Flav.... wowwwwwwwwwwww. Man, are we still on this topic. *This is like asking whether Jesus is black or white.* Lol. Who cares? Hey, if you think being natural means that you have truly accepted your heritage vs. those who are relaxed, then okay. That is your opinion.
> 
> Just to be clear, African- Americans have more important issues that should be discussed, and believe it or not, it does not involve hair. Yes some are hating themselves, but there is also an equal amount that are not. Some posters in this thread need to accept the fact that relaxing does not necessarily equal self-hate. Furthermore, I think most in this thread have strayed away from the op's original question,unless she had other intentions.
> 
> eta: Yes I have been both and enjoyed both journies.


 

And on that note I am to done


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## Evolving78 (Apr 7, 2009)

everyone is going to say they do it for the style.  nobody is going to really be honest.  i remember a thread about what do you think is way over-hyped, or a random thoughts thread where quite a few women stated that if they didn't have naturally curly hair, they wouldn't dare go natural.  but just like some women like to relax for ease, i went natural for ease.  relaxed hair seems like more work to me.  i am happier with my hair than i have ever been.  i feel free and i can dance, play in the rain, and not have to worry about a thing.  the reason why we get into debates about this is because African-Americans have been stripped of so much of their culture.  we have tons of issues, but you got to understand that blacks care a lot about their appearance more than any race.  we will spend our rent money on our hair and clothes.  blacks have been told everything about them is bad, from the hair to their feet.


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## Evolving78 (Apr 7, 2009)

this is an article i read on another hair board about Dominican women and hair.
http://www.miamiherald.com/multimedia/news/afrolatin/part2/index.html


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## manter26 (Apr 7, 2009)

shortdub78 said:


> *everyone is going to say they do it for the style.  nobody is going to really be honest.*  i remember a thread about what do you think is way over-hyped, or a random thoughts thread where quite a few women stated that if they didn't have naturally curly hair, they wouldn't dare go natural.  but just like some women like to relax for ease, i went natural for ease.  relaxed hair seems like more work to me.  i am happier with my hair than i have ever been.  i feel free and i can dance, play in the rain, and not have to worry about a thing.  the reason why we get into debates about this is because African-Americans have been stripped of so much of their culture.  we have tons of issues, but you got to understand that blacks care a lot about their appearance more than any race.  we will spend our rent money on our hair and clothes.  blacks have been told everything about them is bad, from the hair to their feet.




You are insinuating that if you relax your hair because you like that style, you are just lying to yourself??... Being totally, 100% honest with myself, relaxing hair is a style, I look better with bone straight hair. I've worn my hair curly, wavy, straight, etc and i look better and like straight styles more than curly ones. I'm not thinking about all black ppl in the world when i style my hair. I like it a certain way and that's how i wear it.

Yes, I was relaxed for many, many years and now i've chosen to transition. The only reason for this is I recently had my wild, 3" of new growth blown out and i really couldn't tell the difference between my blow out roots and my relaxed hair, so why not just used blowouts to get it straight.

I'm not african-american, so i don't know all the in's and out's of the culture. I'm jamaican by way of UK and our heritage is so mixed you really can say it's one thing or the other. I just think sometimes judgements are made when they really aren't called for. 

and relaxed or natural, u still won't catch me running around in the rain.


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## yuriko (Apr 7, 2009)

Kurlee said:


> I'm going to have to disagree with the bolded.  Many people who are natural WERE relaxed, so maybe they speak from experience and being on both sides of the fence?  For most of us on this board to still not know what our hair looks like without chemicals seems weird to me.  Whenever I read the threads in the hair board about people transitioning the first question is almost always "what is my hair type?" or what is it going to look like?  To me, for a grown person to not know what their real hair looks like is sooooooooooooo weird. Your hair, skin, facial features and perception of yourself are a part of your identity and to only figure it out past your twenties is ODD.  Now with that said, I don't think people with relaxed hair are bad or "unenlightened", so to speak, but I do feel that collectively as "black people", there are things we do not know and understand about ourselves that many other non-black groups know and learn naturally.  This MUST have an effect on our self-esteem and self-perception to some degree. I think it is a problem that we need to confront because there is a reason why these "identity issues" are so widespread among black people. I don't think it is a coincidence.



I still don't see how this is relevant to what I was saying. But I must ask why you care so much about other people's hair. Some people don't care to know their hair type or care to try being natural, why does it bother you? Its just hair, its not a big part of everyone's identity. I am sure that they get new growth like anyone else and have a fair idea about the difference between the new growth and the old relaxed hair.

So it seems to me that hair is an important part of your identity, but it is not so for everyone. You are merely projecting your own feelings onto other people. What may seem weird to you is clearly normal to others.


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## BostonMaria (Apr 7, 2009)

Interesting thread...


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## Evolving78 (Apr 7, 2009)

manter26 said:


> You are insinuating that if you relax your hair because you like that style, you are just lying to yourself??... Being totally, 100% honest with myself, relaxing hair is a style, I look better with bone straight hair. I've worn my hair curly, wavy, straight, etc and i look better and like straight styles more than curly ones. I'm not thinking about all black ppl in the world when i style my hair. I like it a certain way and that's how i wear it.
> 
> Yes, I was relaxed for many, many years and now i've chosen to transition. The only reason for this is I recently had my wild, 3" of new growth blown out and i really couldn't tell the difference between my blow out roots and my relaxed hair, so why not just used blowouts to get it straight.
> 
> ...



no, i am not saying that all people are being dishonest about the reason behind why they relax.  what i am saying is that for those that do it because they feel their hair is bad, nappy, and ugly, are not going to admit the truth behind the lye.  and as far as the rain, my hair can get wet and it will still keep its style.  it make shrink bit, but i won't come from outside looking like a wet cat.


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## PrissyMiss (Apr 7, 2009)

shortdub78 said:


> we will spend our rent money on our hair and clothes.




No disrespect shortdub, I understand everything you are  saying but this above statement, imo, is more important than the current discussion. 

Like I stated before there are some who do do it for the reasons you guys are implying, but there is an even greater number who don't. The point is, to generalize a group of people is ignorant. There were relaxed heads who stated that they do not hate themselves, myself being included, and yet in still there were so many who tried to convince us that we do.This topic has been debated over and over and over again. Don't you think it's a little overdone?

ETA: It's just hair. Everyone is not their hair.


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## mahogany_horizons (Apr 7, 2009)

Actually, even though I relax, as long as I'm not going for the super straight look I rock after a fresh perm, I'm quite happy going out in the rain, etc, and letting my hair get drenched LOL!  I normally air dry, put back in a bun/pony, etc, and my hair is quite curly everywhere.

I only run for cover ever 3 to 4 months when my hair is straightened if it gets wet....other than that I am good.

I don't relax because I don't love the texture of my hair.  The longer I stretch, the more I see that I'd have naturally curly hair too, except my dang hairline...I mean, seriously beautiful curls, no product applied.

Only problem, I don't know how to style/care for it, and I'd be really scared of breakage.  Because I only know how to care for my hair as a relaxed head, etc, then I don't really know much about what I would do for grooming, styling, etc, and how I would be successful as a natrual.

I might texlax in the future..........not for texture but for beakage sake....my problem is with tangles, curly tangles, and shed hair that tangles in my glorious curls...and keep in mind that there are some people, and I may make a case for this myself, who are more than ready to embrace what their natural hair has the potential to be, but those same people may be also locked into the relaxer mindset by the people around them who have igornant views regarding natural hair....even 3b/3c/4a hair that has volume....which is the kind of hair that I would have......think of the huge beuatiful curly fro I could rock!

I don't think any natural texture is ugly.  I think it's cool.  I would go with mine, if I knew more about it, cared more to learn about it, and wasn't concerned for the side eye.


----------



## Poranges (Apr 7, 2009)

Since there's nappuarality lets start a relaxality! Ha Ha....lol who cares that much to put another person's hair state down? Enjoy your natural/relaxed hair, mind ya biznez and KIM..at the end of the day what we gonna say "God, I should enter heaven because I embraced my natural texture" or "God, I relaxed so let me go in"...nope, just hair that we're all trying to grow.


----------



## mahogany_horizons (Apr 7, 2009)

J'adoreHair said:


> Since there's nappuarality lets start a relaxality! Ha Ha....lol who cares that much to put another person's hair state down? Enjoy your natural/relaxed hair, mind ya biznez and KIM..at the end of the day what we gonna say "God, I should enter heaven because I embraced my natural texture" or "God, I relaxed so let me go in"...nope, just hair that we're all trying to grow.


 

AMEN ON THAT ONE SIS!!


----------



## missann (Apr 7, 2009)

shortdub78 said:


> this is an article i read on another hair board about Dominican women and hair.
> http://www.miamiherald.com/multimedia/news/afrolatin/part2/index.html




Thanks for the link.  I appreciate the honesty in this excerpt:

_"If you're working in a bank, you don't    want some barrio-looking hair. Straight hair    looks elegant," the bank teller said. "It's not    that as a person of color I want to look white.    I want to look pretty."_

Very telling.


----------



## that_1_grrrl (Apr 7, 2009)

shortdub78 said:


> this is an article i read on another hair board about Dominican women and hair.
> http://www.miamiherald.com/multimedia/news/afrolatin/part2/index.html



I remember reading that article. That's why I am scared about visiting my family in Cuba. They call natural hair "pasas" (raisins) down there. But, I think it may be better than DR because I see lots of natural heads in Cuba (and rollersets, lol). I hope so, cuz if any of my family there tells me I need a relaxer, I will have to peace out on them.


----------



## msa (Apr 7, 2009)

qt_pie said:


> No disrespect shortdub, I understand everything you are saying but this above statement, imo, is more important than the current discussion.
> 
> Like I stated before there are some who do do it for the reasons you guys are implying, but there is an even greater number who don't. The point is, to generalize a group of people is ignorant. *There were relaxed heads who stated that they do not hate themselves, myself being included, and yet in still there were so many who tried to convince us that we do.*This topic has been debated over and over and over again. Don't you think it's a little overdone?
> 
> ETA: It's just hair. Everyone is not their hair.


 

I just wanted to reiterate for the umpteenth time...

*relaxing does not equal self hate...staying natural does not equal self love...*

carry on.


----------



## Evolving78 (Apr 7, 2009)

qt_pie said:


> No disrespect shortdub, I understand everything you are  saying but this above statement, imo, is more important than the current discussion.
> 
> Like I stated before there are some who do do it for the reasons you guys are implying, but there is an even greater number who don't. The point is, to generalize a group of people is ignorant. There were relaxed heads who stated that they do not hate themselves, myself being included, and yet in still there were so many who tried to convince us that we do.This topic has been debated over and over and over again. Don't you think it's a little overdone?
> 
> ETA: It's just hair. Everyone is not their hair.



ita that at the end of the day, it is just hair. and i never stated that if someone relaxes, then they most hate themselves.  like i stated before, i was relaxed because i thought that was the thing to do.  i was never given a choice.  i know i can go from one extreme to another with my hair.  i will dye, grow it long, cut it bald, wear crazy hairstyles, and not let a soul dictate what i do with it.  i was relaxed when i came to this board.  this board is a safe place for me as a natural to come to, but in the real world it is different.  i don't get a lot of positive reaction or influence from the real world.  the real world has a major issue with the way i wear my hair.  people all around can't seem to understand why i made the choice to go the natural route.  i told someone last week about my hair length goal, and the first thing that came out of her mouth was, "is that when i was going to relax it"?  it will never be over done until as a black people stop hating on each for something that is natural.  i think once we can have some unity in that, then all of the debates will cease.


----------



## sylver2 (Apr 7, 2009)

shortdub78 said:


> no, i am not saying that all people are being dishonest about the reason behind why they relax.  what i am saying is that for those that do it because they feel their hair is bad, nappy, and ugly, are not going to admit the truth behind the lye.  and as far as the rain, my hair can get wet and it will still keep its style.*  it make shrink bit, but i won't come from outside looking like a wet cat*.



yeh okay...keep the low blows coming


----------



## Poranges (Apr 7, 2009)

sylver2 said:


> yeh okay...keep the low blows coming



And since we wanna go there, I look like a sexy wet cat, sexy AND sleek! Nuh Anh Was you saying something? Uh unh, you can't tell me NOTHING! Aight!...


----------



## Evolving78 (Apr 7, 2009)

sylver2 said:


> yeh okay...keep the low blows coming



that wasn't a personal attack on anyone.  that is just what goes on in my world when i wore my hair straight and would get caught in the rain.  if i came off that way, i do apologize.  that is not my personality to just attack people.


----------



## Poranges (Apr 7, 2009)

shortdub78 said:


> that wasn't a personal attack on anyone.  that is just what goes on in my world when i wore my hair straight and would get caught in the rain.  if i came off that way, i do apologize.  that is not my personality to just attack people.



Nah its cool gurl, we all have diff experiences


----------



## msa (Apr 7, 2009)

shortdub78 said:


> this board is a safe place for me as a natural to come to, but in the real world it is different. i don't get a lot of positive reaction or influence from the real world. the real world has a major issue with the way i wear my hair. people all around can't seem to understand why i made the choice to go the natural route. i told someone last week about my hair length goal, and the first thing that came out of her mouth was, "is that when i was going to relax it"? it will never be over done until as a black people stop hating on each for something that is natural. i think once we can have some unity in that, then all of the debates will cease.


 

I agree with you. Even though people do talk negatively about natural hair here a lot as well. And then there's the whole glorification of straight hair...people on this board seriously have a hard time understanding that your hair does not have to be straight to enjoy it.

Anyway, the real world is so much worse. As a natural I have NEVER gone up to a relaxed head to tell her something negative about her hair. I have NEVER made mean comments about someone's hairstyle just because they were relaxed and made sure the person heard me. But I can't tell you how many times I've been called a "nappy such and such" or heard "dang she needs to comb her hair look at all them napps" or whatever else.

People forget that LHCF is a bubble where people are generally more accepting of natural hair than the real world is. Relaxed heads need to understand that hair can be really deep for naturals because of what we go through. It wouldn't be that deep for me if people would just stop insulting me out on the street or in conversation.


----------



## Evolving78 (Apr 7, 2009)

delete......


----------



## sharentu (Apr 7, 2009)

i dont think you can say what is in the mind of everyone.  i remember sometimes when my mother would try to tell me what i was thinking, and she was so off from the truth.  the truth is some people may have self hate issues and some may not. make sure that those who do have a problem get some knowledge on why they should love themselves regardless of their hairstyle preference.  dont lump everyone into a category or generalization, we definitely have too many of those already.


----------



## PrissyMiss (Apr 7, 2009)

Shortdub, ita with you, however, I still say that this conversation is like talking to a bunch of brick walls. At the end of the day don't worry about what other people say. You do happen to be on one of the few hair boards that embraces nappturality or relaxality( ya'll made that up).

You could become president and preach your idea to the world, and people would still have negative ideas about natural hair. I don't address ignorancy and you shouldn't either. So, next time someone asks you a question like that, ask them a question about their hair.  I'm sure it would shut them up.


----------



## mscocoface (Apr 7, 2009)

shortdub78 said:


> this is an article i read on another hair board about Dominican women and hair.
> http://www.miamiherald.com/multimedia/news/afrolatin/part2/index.html


 

I saw this same article and I am still shaking my head.  I believe you go that far in either direction natural or relaxed there is a problem.

I am sure there is a happy medium and case for being natural or relaxed but with everything else there is the fringe or the extreme for both.

Having said that, I know of some women who can't or are told they better not go natural because of whom they are with or around.  Their loved ones or spouses have threaten them about going natural.

Even today with this wonderful dialogue and all of us having a choice here on this site, there are still some serious underlying issues going on that are truly sad and scary when it comes to natural vs. relaxed for women of color.

I wish and hope for a day when this will be a non issue, you can go natural or relaxed and the choice is yours because you want to not because you have to due to family or society or self image.  It would be wonderful just to do whatever you wanted to do with your hair and you wouldn't have to worry about negative backlash being natural or relaxed.

That may be naive but it would be nice.


----------



## that_1_grrrl (Apr 7, 2009)

It is not naive. We all wish for that to happen one day.



mscocoface said:


> I saw this same article and I am still shaking my head.  I believe you go that far in either direction natural or relaxed there is a problem.
> 
> I am sure there is a happy medium and case for being natural or relaxed but with everything else there is the fringe or the extreme.
> 
> ...


----------



## Poranges (Apr 7, 2009)

msa said:


> I agree with you. Even though people do talk negatively about natural hair here a lot as well. And then there's the whole glorification of straight hair...people on this board seriously have a hard time understanding that your hair does not have to be straight to enjoy it.
> 
> Anyway, the real world is so much worse. As a natural I have NEVER gone up to a relaxed head to tell her something negative about her hair. I have NEVER made mean comments about someone's hairstyle just because they were relaxed and made sure the person heard me. But I can't tell you how many times I've been called a "nappy such and such" or heard "dang she needs to comb her hair look at all them napps" or whatever else.
> 
> People forget that LHCF is a bubble where people are generally more accepting of natural hair than the real world is. Relaxed heads need to understand that hair can be really deep for naturals because of what we go through. It wouldn't be that deep for me if people would just stop insulting me out on the street or in conversation.



ITA, however...I wouldn't care...and I wouldn't try to make people who relax should not be talking because of this, and of that and all of that...just because a natural goes through struggles doesn't mean everybody has to go natural to make what statement? Naturals go thru struggles but it has nothing to do with my creamy crack!


----------



## AtlantaJJ (Apr 7, 2009)

msa said:


> I just wanted to reiterate for the umpteenth time...
> 
> *relaxing does not equal self hate...staying natural does not equal self love...*
> 
> carry on.




Where on EARTH did this one get started?  

I was natural from the time I grew up in Los Angeles until the time I moved to Atlanta in the early 90's.  I started wearing my hair relaxed because the humidity was 1000000% in the summer  and that seemed like an easy choice at the time. 

There was not one thought of self love / hate or politics in that decision. It was just a need to manage my hair better in the new climate that caused a decision. After I got bored with that, I wore braids for the longest time because it was more convienant for my active lifestyle. 

I just want to know when it got all serious like this, relaxed vs natural. I totally missed that memo! 

For me it is just a styling choice.


----------



## Carrie A (Apr 7, 2009)

Br*nzeb*mbsh~ll said:


> *um, locks....*


 
Amazingly, those can be taken down.....even after years of wear.  Techniques for taking then down are posted in cyberspace.


----------



## Shandell (Apr 7, 2009)

We live in a world where if you are not a type 2 or 3 with defined curls you are not worthy of embracing you true hair texture, farbeit from a 4b to actually think their hair is beautiful...that is unheard of. A 4b *needs a relaxer *in the eyes of society. But, let me be the first to say I am no longer under the bondage that society/blacks/African Americans like to imprision those who don't conform to their standard of beauty.
OT: And what is this natural hair is unmanageable garbage...we are not animals that need taming...please.


Can't we all just get along...*for real*!


----------



## Lexib (Apr 7, 2009)

rabs77 said:


> Exactly!
> As a natural, I can CHOOSE to wear MY hair naturally curly or straight.


 
Well you know likewise, I (speaking for relaxed heads) can choose to wear my hair straight OR wear a really tight braid out to mimick my natural texture...then wash it out and go back to being straight again. 


Just a style choice.


----------



## gabulldawg (Apr 7, 2009)

Lexib said:


> Well you know likewise, I (speaking for relaxed heads) can choose to wear my hair straight OR wear a really tight braid out to mimick my natural texture...then wash it out and go back to being straight again.
> 
> 
> *Just a style choice*.


 
People don't want to understand/embrace that idea.  I've had naturals ask me if I was natural when I wore braidouts/twistouts...


----------



## Mortons (Apr 7, 2009)

I've always been under the impression that a hair style is temporary and can change day to day. Relaxed hair is relaxed for good once the chemical has been applied to it. I don't know if I would call that a style.


----------



## gabulldawg (Apr 7, 2009)

Mortons said:


> I've always been under the impression that a hair style is temporary and can change day to day. Relaxed hair is relaxed for good once the chemical has been applied to it. I don't know if I would call that a style.


 
Until relaxed hair grows out of my scalp, I would consider it a style.  Applying a relaxer on your hair doesn't cause your hair to grow in relaxed...


----------



## Prose Princess (Apr 7, 2009)

So if the important thing to remember from this discussion is that relaxing doesn't always mean self hate and being natural doesn't always mean self love, does that mean the whole point of this conversation is to hate on people who already hate themselves?  Now THAT'S a low blow.


----------



## Amerie123 (Apr 7, 2009)

Lexib said:


> Well you know likewise, I (speaking for relaxed heads) can choose to wear my hair straight OR wear a really tight braid out to mimick my natural texture...then wash it out and go back to being straight again.
> 
> 
> Just a style choice.


 
I agree. I've been saying this for the longest.


----------



## Mortons (Apr 7, 2009)

gabulldawg said:


> Until relaxed hair grows out of my scalp, I would consider it a style.  Applying a relaxer on your hair doesn't cause your hair to grow in relaxed...



No it does not. My point was it is a permanent change to your hair. And most women here are not relaxing it just to cut it off, we intend to keep out hair (i.e. our length goals). So a permanent change is not a style, its, well, permanent.


----------



## missann (Apr 7, 2009)

Can this thread go back to the Off-Topic forum?


----------



## sheba1 (Apr 7, 2009)

I've been natural for 14 years and I was really shocked to find that there was this natural or relaxed war raging online.  I think beautiful hair is beautiful hair.  It's just a choice.  Some naturals like straight hair but choose to straighten with means other than a relaxer.  Some naturals are against straightening, at all.  Either way, it's just what you like.  Not what's right on some global scale.  Just what's right for that person. Like the difference between liking heels or flats.  Or wearing dresses or dress slacks.  *shrug*  Not really that big a deal.

I love my fro and I love when my hair is straight.  It's just a matter of deciding what makes the most sense for me in terms of how often I want to wear my hair straight.  Right now, I'm on the grow and rocking protective styles constantly.  It matters not what my hair looks like straight nor do I wear it this way.  So I'm natural, for now, as I have been for many years; until further notice.


----------



## msa (Apr 7, 2009)

J'adoreHair said:


> ITA, however...I wouldn't care...and I wouldn't try to make people who relax should not be talking because of this, and of that and all of that...just because a natural goes through struggles doesn't mean everybody has to go natural to make what statement? Naturals go thru struggles but it has nothing to do with my creamy crack!



You wouldn't care about people insulting you to your face? From the time you were a child? Apparently, you're a much better woman than I am.

And, I didn't say that just because a natural goes through struggles that everyone else should be natural. I can't control and don't desire to control what other people do to their hair. In fact, everyone being natural wouldn't change a thing because the people who relax would just burn their hair straight, or BKT it, or weave it up to get the look they desire and they would still belittle those who choose to rock their natural coils, kinks, and curls.

My point is that it would be nice if people were not so rude and nasty about natural hair. And if you are going to be rude and nasty, keep it to yourself because I don't want to hear it.


----------



## Crackers Phinn (Apr 7, 2009)

gabulldawg said:


> Some people are really playing themselves and think they are playing others.  You have "rainbows" growing out of your head and I have "weeds" growing out of mine, and I'm supposed to sit here and look foolish just so I can embrace my heritage.


I screamed laughin at this. 

Foolish I say! 

BTW - I meant to tell ya I dig the hair cut. 



gabulldawg said:


> I've gone the natural route, and after trial and error, came to the conclusion that it's not for me.



What I think is different about this thread is that there are quite a few people posting who were natural - went through the stages of being natural that other people did,  but our natural experience doesn't seem to count because we ended it.


----------



## Poranges (Apr 7, 2009)

msa said:


> You wouldn't care about people insulting you to your face? From the time you were a child? Apparently, you're a much better woman than I am.
> 
> And, I didn't say that just because a natural goes through struggles that everyone else should be natural. I can't control and don't desire to control what other people do to their hair. In fact, everyone being natural wouldn't change a thing because the people who relax would just burn their hair straight, or BKT it, or weave it up to get the look they desire and they would still belittle those who choose to rock their natural coils, kinks, and curls.
> 
> My point is that it would be nice if people were not so rude and nasty about natural hair. And if you are going to be rude and nasty, keep it to yourself because I don't want to hear it.



Oh, I didn't know this was about rude and nastiness, I thought it was about overly curious people, in that case you have all the right.


----------



## msa (Apr 7, 2009)

J'adoreHair said:


> Oh, I didn't know this was about rude and nastiness, I thought it was about overly curious people, in that case you have all the right.




Girl no, I LOVE curious people. When people ask me questions I get to spread all my natural love.

I don't like questions like: "When are you going to comb your hair?"..."why did you walk out of the house looking like that?"..."you know you don't have the kind of hair that you can just wash and go right?"...and anything else of that nature said with a stank face and a flip of their dirty brown, funky, flaky, crispy relaxed hair.


----------



## LuyshuZ (Apr 7, 2009)

already spoken about


----------



## BostonMaria (Apr 7, 2009)

OK so who won?
Naturals or Relaxers?

LOL


----------



## that_1_grrrl (Apr 7, 2009)

LOL, neither. The conversation just keeps going around in circles. I think right now the relaxed heads are talking to themselves. Soon, the naturals will come in and start talking to themselves. Yadda yadda yadda.



BostonMaria said:


> OK so who won?
> Naturals or Relaxers?
> 
> LOL


----------



## Lexib (Apr 7, 2009)

BostonMaria said:


> OK so who won?
> Naturals or Relaxers?
> 
> LOL


 

what was the question again?


----------



## Amerie123 (Apr 7, 2009)

delete.....


----------



## Denise11 (Apr 7, 2009)

This discussion is so silly, especially in this day and age, when we , as black people are going through so much in society. But we are not satisfied. We need to fight amongst ourselves about relaxed or natural hair. Neither one is better. Being relaxed is a choice and it doesn't mean we hate ourselves. And being natural is a choice and naturals are no better than relaxed haired people. We need to start respecting each other, and each other's choices.


This Reminds me of the jiggaboos and the wannabes, from Spike Lee's old movie School Daze.


----------



## kandake (Apr 7, 2009)

So last night I relaxed my hair.  I've been texlaxing every three months.  I was thinking of transitioning to natural since my texlaxed hair looked like my natural hair.  For months I've been going back and forth with my decision between relaxed or natural

Oddly enough, because of this discussion I decided to go ahead and relax.   Weird huh.


----------



## Amerie123 (Apr 7, 2009)

^^^great!! do what you gotta do! at the end of the day, you are happy! So, now for the ladies on this thread, what exactly caused you to make this choice? Well see how one of many really feels when they make that decision to relax (and yes I know we all have different reasons). Just curious.


----------



## AtlantaJJ (Apr 7, 2009)

**kandi** said:


> So last night I relaxed my hair.  I've been texlaxing every three months.  I was thinking of transitioning to natural since my texlaxed hair look like my natural hair.  For months I've been going back and forth with my decision between relaxed or natural
> 
> Oddly enough, because of this discussion I decided to go ahead and relax.   Weird huh.


Okay for those keeping score..

1
For the relaxers


----------



## msa (Apr 7, 2009)

Denise11 said:


> This discussion is so silly, especially in this day and age, when we , as black people are going through so much in society. But we are not satisfied. We need to fight amongst ourselves about relaxed or natural hair. Neither one is better. Being relaxed is a choice and it doesn't mean we hate ourselves. And being natural is a choice and naturals are no better than relaxed haired people. We need to start respecting each other, and each other's choices.
> 
> 
> *This Reminds me of the jiggaboos and the wannabes, from Spike Lee's old movie School Daze.*




People keep bringing up that movie. Why do you think it was included in the movie? Because these are issues that have been around for decades. And they'll still be here 100 years from now.

And yes, there are other important things going on in the world. But this discussion is not silly *for me* because as a black person with natural hair in this society I go through a lot. Of course you wouldn't understand that because your "hairstyle" is accepted and considered better than mine.


----------



## kandake (Apr 7, 2009)

AtlantaJJ said:


> Okay for those keeping score..
> 
> 1
> For the relaxers


...


----------



## msa (Apr 7, 2009)

AtlantaJJ said:


> Okay for those keeping score..
> 
> 1
> For the relaxers




As a natural, I know that the relaxers *always* win.


ETA: Joking people. Not being serious.


----------



## that_1_grrrl (Apr 7, 2009)

So this is a competition now? Lol, o... k.


----------



## BrooklynSouth (Apr 7, 2009)

*Relaxed hair can be beautiful, natural hair can be beautiful...WE OF ALL PEOPLE DO UNDERSTAND THAT.... I hate family fights!!!!*


----------



## msa (Apr 7, 2009)

Rosie8604 said:


> So this is a competition now? Lol, o... k.




It's always been a competition...no matter what state your hair is in it don't mean a thang if you ain't got that swang.

ETA: Joking. Not being serious.


----------



## sylver2 (Apr 7, 2009)

u need therapy.......for no one in particular. if u think its for u then....


----------



## Amerie123 (Apr 7, 2009)




----------



## Denise11 (Apr 7, 2009)

msa said:


> People keep bringing up that movie. Why do you think it was included in the movie? Because these are issues that have been around for decades. And they'll still be here 100 years from now.
> 
> And yes, there are other important things going on in the world. But this discussion is not silly *for me* because as a black person with natural hair in this society I go through a lot. Of course you wouldn't understand that because your "hairstyle" is accepted and considered better than mine.



It wouldn't have to go on forever if people would just stop acting petty. And just because you go through a lot because of your hair, doesn't mean that you have the right to try to torture others because of how you feel.

Some of you naturals act like bullies that try to put other people (relaxed haired people) down, so that you'll feel better about yourselves.


----------



## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Apr 7, 2009)

JCoily said:


> I screamed laughin at this.
> 
> Foolish I say!
> 
> ...


 
Damn!  Say it again


----------



## gabulldawg (Apr 7, 2009)

msa said:


> It's always been a competition...no matter what state your hair is in it don't mean a thang if you ain't got that swang.


 
But WHO'S making it a competition??  Speaking for the relaxed heads, I don't recall us bashing naturals. If it's not for us, it just isn't. Doesn't mean it can't work for someone else. Naturals always seem to be the ones that want to pull the "self-hate" card, and throw low blows about relaxed hair, and how we must be trying to be "white" because we want straight hair ...


----------



## gabulldawg (Apr 7, 2009)

Denise11 said:


> It wouldn't have to go on forever if people would just stop acting petty. And just because you go through a lot because of your hair, doesn't mean that you have the right to try to torture others because of how you feel.
> 
> *Some of you naturals act like bullies that try to put other people (relaxed haired people) down, so that you'll feel better about yourselves*.


 
Which, IMO, is *SO* ironic, since relaxed hair is frequently equated with self-hatred...


----------



## msa (Apr 7, 2009)

Denise11 said:


> It wouldn't have to go on forever if people would just stop acting petty. And just because you go through a lot because of your hair, doesn't mean that you have the right to try to torture others because of how you feel.
> 
> Some of you naturals act like bullies that try to put other people (relaxed haired people) down, so that you'll feel better about yourselves.



I personally haven't tortured anyone. I gave my opinion on a discussion question. How am I a bully? I haven't put anyone down, at least I haven't tried to. If I have then it's been unintentional. And why would I need to put someone down to feel good about myself? Just like you like your hair, I like mine and I won't apologize for that.



gabulldawg said:


> But WHO'S making it a competition??  Speaking for the relaxed heads, I don't recall us bashing naturals. If it's not for us, it just isn't. Doesn't mean it can't work for someone else. Naturals always seem to be the ones that want to pull the "self-hate" card, and throw low blows about relaxed hair, and how we must be trying to be "white" because we want straight hair ...



I was really joking. Next time I will add the appropriate smiley.

I have NEVER said that relaxing means that someone suffers from self-hate. In fact, I've posted numerous times that relaxing does not equal self-hate. *I've said it over and over again.* I have not made any blows, low or otherwise, about relaxed hair. And I definitely haven't said anything about someone trying to be white because they want straight hair. Those were not things that I added to this conversation at all.

I don't see why it's so hard to understand that just because I have an opinion that celebrates natural hair that I'm not being negative towards or putting down relaxed hair at the same time. I make a conscious effort not to say anything negative about relaxed hair on this board or anywhere else for that matter. 

Let me make it clear again:

1. *I do not think relaxing equals self-hate or that staying natural equals self-love. I don't think those labels are appropriate in this type of debate.*

2. I do not think relaxed hair is ugly (well, unless it actually is) or that natural hair is somehow inherently better just because it's natural.

3. I do not think that people who stay natural are better than people who relax. Individuals make different choices. That's all there is to it. I may have a specific opinion about those choices, but I don't either makes someone better than the next person.


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## LivingDol1 (Apr 7, 2009)

hmm.. i missed this one. darn.

who cares about having relaxed hair or being natural anyway? it's a style choice or some find one way easier for them than the other way. it's just a choice. 

and why is it such a big deal in the black community? we aren't the only ones who relax our hair you know. i don't hear curly haired jewish people whining about who relaxes and who doesn't. who's keeping it real and who's trying to be something they aren't... sheesh.

hug it out!

that's my 2 cents. exiting thread.


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## that_1_grrrl (Apr 7, 2009)

Lol, I noticed you mentioned it over and over. 

This debate is pointless because people are going to continue misinterpret what is being said here. That's why I said earlier that the relaxed head are talking to themselves and the natural heads are talking to themselves.

It's gotten to the point of ridiculous. Some of the posts don't even make sense (logical or grammatical), so it's just getting hilarious now. Let's just drop it. This is obviously not the place to be having serious discussions about societal issues.



msa said:


> I personally haven't tortured anyone. I gave my opinion on a discussion question. How am I a bully? I haven't put anyone down, at least I haven't tried to. If I have then it's been unintentional. And why would I need to put someone down to feel good about myself? Just like you like your hair, I like mine and I won't apologize for that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## gabulldawg (Apr 7, 2009)

msa said:


> I personally haven't tortured anyone. I gave my opinion on a discussion question. How am I a bully? I haven't put anyone down, at least I haven't tried to. If I have then it's been unintentional. And why would I need to put someone down to feel good about myself? Just like you like your hair, I like mine and I won't apologize for that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
YOU may not have said it or insinuated it, but there are those that have.  It's all good, though. If I was unsure or unhappy with my choice I guess it would bother me, but I will stick by my choice to relax probably until the day I die.  Relaxed hair works for me and my lifestyle.


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## msa (Apr 7, 2009)

Rosie8604 said:


> Lol, I noticed you mentioned it over and over.
> 
> This debate is pointless because people are going to continue misinterpret what is being said here. That's why I said earlier that the relaxed head are talking to themselves and the natural heads are talking to themselves.
> 
> It's gotten to the point of ridiculous. Some of the posts don't even make sense (logical or grammatical), so it's just getting hilarious now. Let's just drop it. This is obviously not the place to be having serious discussions about societal issues.



It's gotten far past ridiculous at this point.


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## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Apr 7, 2009)

msa, i have a new found respect for you   You're a scrappy one aren't you?


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## msa (Apr 7, 2009)

Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> msa, i have a new found respect for you  * You're a scrappy one aren't you?*




Always have been and always will be. I'm like a pit bull, once my jaws lock shut, I ain't lettin' go.


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## Mortons (Apr 7, 2009)

gabulldawg said:


> YOU may not have said it or insinuated it, but *there are those that have. * It's all good, though. If I was unsure or unhappy with my choice I guess it would bother me, but I will stick by my choice to relax probably until the day I die.  Relaxed hair works for me and my lifestyle.



Can you or someone quote those people? I missed it.


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## BostonMaria (Apr 7, 2009)

Lexib said:


> what was the question again?



I didn't see the first thread so I have absolutely no idea


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## gabulldawg (Apr 7, 2009)

Mortons said:


> Can you or someone quote those people? I missed it.


 
Do you really expect me to go back through this long arse thread to find some quotes?


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## Junebug D (Apr 7, 2009)

Most pointless discussion ever.    No one on a hair board who hopefully is fully aware of what they are doing to their hair for whatever reasons, (_who cares about Hairgal215695221457822 who's been on LHCF, NP, and everywhere else and should know better; it's the ones who don't know any better that need the discussion)_ is going to change their minds on this subject. No one.  Or at least they won't state it publicly in a thread like this.

Circular firing squad much?  Really?

(Haha, how timely.  they're doing a segment on Black women's hair on my local news right now.  Apparently 30% of black women said they do not exercise because of "hair management"-- i.e. fearful that it will revert.)


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## msa (Apr 7, 2009)

Mortons said:


> Can you or someone quote those people? I missed it.



I've gone back through and I haven't found a natural that said relaxing=self-hate. But I could have missed something.



BostonMaria said:


> I didn't see the first thread so I have absolutely no idea



I recapped on the first page.


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## LaidBak (Apr 7, 2009)

msa said:


> It's always been a competition...no matter what state your hair is in it don't mean a thang if you ain't got that swang.



Wow, sweatheart....really?   I am relaxed and the thought of a competition made me laugh out loud, until I realized how sad it sounded.  

So you think there is a competition, and you think naturals always lose.   So what if I throw in the bit about how 3C/3B *naturals* always win over relaxed heads?  Cause where I grew up (Cali)  "mixed hair" was always better.    

Tosses grenade and walks away....


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## Denise11 (Apr 7, 2009)

msa said:


> Always have been and always will be. I'm like a pit bull, once my jaws lock shut, I ain't lettin' go.



You're not a pit bull, you only think you are. You didn't say anything that was so tough.


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## Mortons (Apr 7, 2009)

gabulldawg said:


> Do you really expect me to go back through this long arse thread to find some quotes?



If they exist and are truly the source of outrage, yes.


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## that_1_grrrl (Apr 7, 2009)

LaidBak said:


> Wow, sweatheart....really?   I am relaxed and the thought of a competition made me laugh out loud, until I realized how sad it sounded.
> 
> So you think there is a competition, and you think naturals always lose.   So what if I throw in the bit about how 3C/3B *naturals* always win over relaxed heads?  Cause where I grew up (Cali)  "mixed hair" was always better.
> 
> Tosses grenade and walks away....



You missed the part where she said she was joking about that.


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## Mortons (Apr 7, 2009)

msa said:


> *I've gone back through and I haven't found a natural that said relaxing=self-hate. But I could have missed something.
> *
> 
> 
> I recapped on the first page.



I'm on page 11 and so far nothing.


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## msa (Apr 7, 2009)

LaidBak said:


> Wow, sweatheart....really?   I am relaxed and the thought of a competition made me laugh out loud, until I realized how sad it sounded.
> 
> So you think there is a competition, and you think naturals always lose.   So what if I throw in the bit about how 3C/3B *naturals* always win over relaxed heads?  Cause where I grew up (Cali)  "mixed hair" was always better.
> 
> Tosses grenade and walks away....



I was actually really joking. Let me go back and edit my post. I don't use smilies enough so no one knows when I'm joking and when I'm being serious.

And everyone knows 3b/3c naturals win over everyone...see joking!



Denise11 said:


> You're not a pit bull, you only think you are. You didn't say anything that was so tough.



I don't actually think I'm a pit bull, nor was I trying to be "tough". I was just using that image as a comparison for what I was doing which was holding on to one idea and not letting it go no matter what. Just  like how pit bulls will bite something and you can't pry their teeth apart no matter what you do.


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## Poranges (Apr 7, 2009)

LET LIVE YA'LL, THERE IS BETTER THINGS WE COULD BE DOING, PROMOTING A CAUSE FOR BREAST CANCER AND/OR AIDS...SIGNING A WORTHWHILE PETITION...HELPING ORPHANS!!!

I DON'T CAAAARE WHAT ANYONE THINKS OF ME AND MY HAIR...YOU SHOULDN'T TOO!!! DIE THREAD! PLEASE DIE! :gotroasted:


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## LaidBak (Apr 7, 2009)

Rosie8604 said:


> You missed the part where she said she was joking about that.



I didn't miss it.  It was edited in as I was writing my reply.


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## msa (Apr 7, 2009)

LaidBak said:


> I didn't miss it.  It was edited in as I was writing my reply.




Yup my bad.

I realize because of this thread I need to make it clear when I'm joking. Sometimes I say things just to be ridiculous. I need to think *before* I type.


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## BotanyGrl (Apr 8, 2009)

Denise11 said:


> You're not a pit bull, you only think you are. You didn't say anything that was so tough.



The above comment is just plain rude. 

Now back on topic... 

First, I don't care what others do with their hair. As long as you're happy... Do You! 

Personally, I had one of those revelation moments similar to Lauren (Southernbella) and decided to transition. Continuing to relax my hair just isn't for me. Before I made the decision to transition, I thought relaxing was a style choice as well... But the women on LHCF are not the norm and I honestly believe that majority of *Black women in the real world* don't relax their hair because it's a "style choice". The women I know in real life (and this crosses socio-economic levels) relax because they don't believe their natural hair is beautiful. 

This hair thing is that deep. *It may not be for majority of the relaxed women on LHCF* who know how to care for their hair, but for Black women outside of this board it is. We can't compare ourselves to white women who color or throw a curly perm in their hair. It's not the same. No matter how many times someone brings it up, it just can't compare. 

Shaving our heads when we stepped foot (before getting on too) off those boats automatically stripped us of our identities. Yes, hair was that serious even 300-400 years ago... I digress. It's too damn late


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## LisaLisa1908 (Apr 8, 2009)

msa, it's difficult to think you're "joking" about some of your commentary when you have what you have in your siggy.

Just a thought.


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## Denise11 (Apr 8, 2009)

So.....?

There's a lot of things said in this thread that's rude. Did you really think that this thread was nice?



BotanyGrl said:


> The above comment is just plain rude.
> 
> Now back on topic...
> 
> ...


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## PinkSkates (Apr 8, 2009)

msa said:


> I personally haven't tortured anyone. I gave my opinion on a discussion question. How am I a bully? I haven't put anyone down, at least I haven't tried to. If I have then it's been unintentional. And why would I need to put someone down to feel good about myself? Just like you like your hair, I like mine and I won't apologize for that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


> Originally posted by *msa*
> I love the way you put that. I can say that the bolded is true for myself, even though I've never had a relaxer. All I knew was pressing/wraps and braids, no one ever taught me anything else about my *hair* so it took until the middle of college before it dawned on me that there were other things I could do with it.
> 
> But, I think there are a number of women who dislike their *natural* *hair* and relax to get rid of it. Considering some of the things *relaxed* heads on this board say, I don't know how it can be denied that for some people relaxing is indicative of *self-dislike.*


Hey ladies, I think the above statement that msa made in the original thread, the one that Jadore(sp?) started yesterday, is what started the 'self-hatred' argument. msa used the term *"self-dislike'*.


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## Kurlee (Apr 8, 2009)

BotanyGrl said:


> The above comment is just plain rude.
> 
> Now back on topic...
> 
> ...


I read a book a few years ago that discusses the whole hair issue, going back to pre-slavery. It has pictures and sketches and it seems our hair has always been _that deep_. Back in Africa, different tribes used to distinguish themselves by their hairstyles. People of different "ranks" and statuses like royalty vs regular folk, married vs. unmarried, etc.  The book was pretty cool and  the hairstyles were kinda cool.  Lots of canerows and twists and all kinds of cool shapes and the hair was pretty long too.  It showed me that our affection for our hair goes waaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy back.


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## msa (Apr 8, 2009)

LisaLisa1908 said:


> msa, it's difficult to think you're "joking" about some of your commentary when you have what you have in your siggy.
> 
> Just a thought.



Well the question in my siggy is just something I'm contemplating right now. But, I will be making it clear when I'm joking from now on so that there's no confusion.



Denise11 said:


> So.....?
> 
> There's a lot of things said in this thread that's rude. Did you really think that this thread was nice?



Denise, I just went back through this thread and I couldn't find anywhere that I was being rude. But I understand that everyone perceives things differently and that tone does not translate well into type, so I apologize if anything I said to you was rude or mean. It was definitely not intentional.



PinkSkates said:


> Hey ladies, I think the above statement that msa made in the original thread, the one that Jadore(sp?) started yesterday, is what started the 'self-hatred' argument. msa used the term *"self-dislike'*.



Yes, I did use the term "self-dislike", but I never used the term "self-hatred". As I keep saying, it's inappropriate for this debate. Also, as it shows in that quote I said that *some* people who relax probably had an issue with self-dislike, *not all*.

And, the "self-hatred" argument definitely predates me.


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## msa (Apr 8, 2009)

You know what...I just went back to the original thread...and I never brought up self-hatred. In fact, someone else brought it up in like the 3rd post (though she was being sarcastic), and then other people ran with it. Pinkskates (and everyone else), I am definitely not the reason the self-hatred argument started, the term was used 3 or 4 times before I even posted in the thread. 

http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=354353

I made it clear in that thread as well that IMO relaxing does not equal self-hatred.


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## curlcomplexity (Apr 8, 2009)

Oh goodness....please don't let this thread get locked!

It's just HAIR ladies!!!  Dead cells people....DEAD CELLS!  Wear it how you want to wear it, as long as YOU love it that's all that should really matter, no?   Natural or relaxed...it's ALL beautiful (when it's healthy...sorry I had to put that in there lol)!  No need for e-drama.  Kumbaya...geez!


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## Prose Princess (Apr 8, 2009)

msa said:


> You know what...I just went back to the original thread...and I never brought up self-hatred. In fact, someone else brought it up in like the 3rd post (though she was being sarcastic), and then other people ran with it. Pinkskates (and everyone else), I am definitely not the reason the self-hatred argument started, the term was used 3 or 4 times before I even posted in the thread.
> 
> http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=354353
> 
> I made it clear in that thread as well that IMO relaxing does not equal self-hatred.



I'm really not trying to be rude, but I just don't see how you can be surprised that people are taking offense when you say things like:



msa said:


> But, I think there are a number of women who dislike their natural hair and relax to get rid of it. Considering some of the things relaxed heads on this board say, I don't know how it can be denied that for some people relaxing is indicative of self-dislike.



And then in addition to that have the quote: "Is there anyone left who actually loves their natural texture? Or am I the only one? " in your signature.  

These two quotes together have the implication that you feel that you, as a natural putting down relaxed heads, are better and more confident in yourself than relaxed heads who put down naturals.  Why can't it be that the two are equally as self confident and happy with their choices and just don't like each other?  Like blondes and brunettes?

I don't know if my post makes much sense, but surely you can understand where I'm coming from.  Just like you as a natural know when relaxed women, white people, or anybody is exhibiting a condescending attitude towards you and your hair styling choice, relaxed heads can pick up on that animosity from naturals as well, whether you realize you're projecting it or not.  Again, I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just trying to help you understand why some of these rebuttals are being directed at you.


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## msa (Apr 8, 2009)

Prose Princess said:


> I'm really not trying to be rude, but I just don't see how you can be surprised that people are taking offense when you say things like:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You make sense and I understand where you're coming from. Like I said earlier, I make a point to try not be rude because I don't want people to be offended. But, I can't help it if people are offended by my opinions. I'm not surprised that people disagree with me. I am surprised that grown women who are twice my age would be outright rude to me over my personal opinion.

I will say this, you quoted me and it's not like what I said is a lie. Even relaxed heads admit that there are some women who relax because they dislike their hair and/or themselves. I don't see what's wrong with saying that. And, I didn't think how I said it was rude or anything like that.

About the question in my siggy, since it keeps coming up. It is something that I have been contemplating, which is why it's been in there for a while (before this thread). It actually doesn't refer to relaxed people, though everyone else keeps projecting that onto it. And I was not trying to imply that I'm better or more confident than someone else because of my choices. But, I see where you're coming from and how it could imply something different from what I intended. 

Rebuttals are always going to come my way because my opinion is unpopular, even with most naturals. But that's not going to change how I feel. I'm ok with people not agreeing with me, since 99% of people don't. As always, I will continue to work on my delivery so that I don't come across as rude or condescending. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.


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## HoneyA (Apr 8, 2009)

Wow! I missed the last discussion and am very late entering this one. I've had processed hair and natural hair. I was complimented on both. Both types offered different style options and I played around a lot with them. I didn't think it was that deep to tell the truth and just switched between them because I had a choice and got tired of one look. Depends on what I want to do with my hair at a given point in my life. I could care less what people do with their hair, whether they chop it all off, wear it natural, straight, relaxed, permed, in locs or paint it blue or red. I may comment on it just for the sake of it but in the grand scheme of things, it really doesn't matter to me. I am sure there are people who would try to analyse why I have permed hair now...knock yourselves out but at the end of the day, it's my hair and I do what I want with it.


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## fairyhairy (Apr 8, 2009)

lol, too deep, just hair peeps more important things to worry me thinks.....


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## MummysGirl (Apr 8, 2009)

43 pages already? There are some threads which need more attention than this that have not gotten half as many responses as they deserve. 

It's obvious people have different opinions and this thread is never coming to a conclusion where everyone agrees with each other so I wonder what the real purpose of this and the original were apart from the current results.


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## pebbles (Apr 8, 2009)

J'adoreHair said:


> LET LIVE YA'LL, THERE IS BETTER THINGS WE COULD BE DOING, PROMOTING A CAUSE FOR BREAST CANCER AND/OR AIDS...SIGNING A WORTHWHILE PETITION...HELPING ORPHANS!!!
> 
> I DON'T CAAAARE WHAT ANYONE THINKS OF ME AND MY HAIR...YOU SHOULDN'T TOO!!! DIE THREAD! PLEASE DIE! :gotroasted:




Your wish will come true soon enough. Notice the tone of some of the responses in this thread. Complaints are starting to come in already, and folks wonder why some threads can't stay open? Count down to shut down begins...


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## antisocial (Apr 8, 2009)

msa said:


> You know what...I just went back to the original thread...and I never brought up self-hatred. *In fact, someone else brought it up in like the 3rd post (though she was being sarcastic), and then other people ran with it.* Pinkskates (and everyone else), I am definitely not the reason the self-hatred argument started, the term was used 3 or 4 times before I even posted in the thread.
> 
> http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=354353
> 
> I made it clear in that thread as well that IMO relaxing does not equal self-hatred.


 

Yeah, actually my comment was the first to mention "self-hatred" and as I stated in the thread, that comment really was sarcasm (hence all the 's) and yes, others ran with it which is when the generalizations started. 

What confuses me is why people are acting like that's the first time it ever came up. The "self hate" issue predates either of these two threads.


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