# Is type 4b hair uncommon?



## jupitermoon (Sep 26, 2009)

Most people on the hair boards that I frequent including this board appear to be a 4a or 3c/4a mix.  There are many type 3s and some 4a/b mixes.  I've even read a few posts stating that type 4b hair is rare.

This post is a spinoff of the "Her 4b is not my 4b" thread.  I'm pretty new to hair typing myself--just wondering...


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## CurlyMoo (Sep 26, 2009)

I thinks it's hard to get an acurrate poll because everyone won't vote. I personally am only guessing at what a 4b is. I need to see some pictures to confirm it. I think a friend of mine is 4b. It's very dense, thick with micro waves. I was cornrowing her hair and loved it. Can't wait to get back in it.


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## virtuenow (Sep 26, 2009)

CelinaStarr said:


> Most people on the hair boards that I frequent including this board appear to be a 4a or 3c/4a mix. There are many type 3s and some 4a/b mixes. I've even read a few posts stating that type 4b hair is rare.
> 
> This post is a spinoff of the "Her 4b is not my 4b" thread. I'm pretty new to hair typing myself--just wondering...


 
What is your hair type?  I originally said I was 4a/b until I looked at all of the people claiming 4a & b.  Alot of people who say they are 4b have a pretty loose, hanging curl too, so I have attempted to upgrade myself to 4c or z.  That statment is true, her 4b is definitely not my 4b!


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## hair_rehab (Sep 26, 2009)

When I first BCed, I thought that I was a 4b. But 7 months later I'm sure that it's 4 a/b. The curls in the front and at the nape are looser and they become tighter and tangle a little more in the crown and on the sides.


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## Leeda.the.Paladin (Sep 26, 2009)

Well, I think it could possibly be a combination of a lot of things. Most people have never seen their natural texture without some relaxed ends, or they have seen combed out baby pictures where their hair type is hard to determine. So people kind of guess what their hair type is.

If it is rare, I would think we could not apply that to the entire population since the hairboards constitute a small percentage.


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## trenise (Sep 26, 2009)

I don't know if it is uncommon, but I consider myself 4b and I remember the comments my mother used to make about how "nappy" my hair was and it definitely was not like my cousins' hair.


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## anon123 (Sep 26, 2009)

Celina, most people on this board self-identify as 4a/b.  There's a poll somewhere around here for "what is your hair type?"  You can also see how many people are 4b.  If I can find it, I'll bump it.

I don't think it's uncommon, but it does seem a lot less common than I thought.  Especially on hair boards.  I have some theories about that, but they're unpopular.  I think the rate would be higher in the general AA population, not sure about other countries, though my own travels say it would at least be higher in black southern Africa, too.


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## msa (Sep 26, 2009)

I don't think they're uncommon, just not common on hairboards. Why? 
-4b's are most likely to be relaxed so you don't necessarily see them
-in the real world their hair is considered the worst so I think if they are brainwashed by the community then they believe the bad stuff about their hair and aren't likely to be looking for haircare tips in the first place and are more worried about straightening it, styling it, or keeping it hidden.
-hairboards like lhcf are the least supportive of that hair type (despite the lipservice to the contrary) so they are more likely to be on np or just lurk instead of participating.

Just my opinion. I think they are quite common, just marginalized.


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## Kurlee (Sep 26, 2009)

i think that people misunderstand the 4b hair type.  As soon as they see really small curls, they say 4b.  It's pretty simple 4a = smallest range of curls whether fine, medium or coarse and 4b= zigzag, no curl "cnapp" type hair. To be very honest, I rarely see people with this hair type.  Almost everyone I see who claims 4b, is usually a much looser hair type and people kinda assume that coarse = 4b.


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## Kurlee (Sep 26, 2009)

msa said:


> I don't think they're uncommon, just not common on hairboards. Why?
> *-4b's are most likely to be relaxed* so you don't necessarily see them
> -in the real world their hair is considered the worst so I think if they are brainwashed by the community then they believe the bad stuff about their hair and aren't likely to be looking for haircare tips in the first place and *are more worried about straightening it, styling it, or keeping it hidden.*
> -hairboards like lhcf are the least supportive of that hair type (despite the lipservice to the contrary) so they are more likely to be on np or just lurk instead of participating.
> ...


I agree with the bolded


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## Desarae (Sep 26, 2009)

I think 4b is more common. 75% of my friends, family, and black co-workers are 4b.


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## Junebug D (Sep 26, 2009)

I don't know, to be honest.  I think they are just more low-key on hair boards. And in the "real world", they are more likely to be relaxed or with locs. And the men tend to shave their heads.


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## trenise (Sep 26, 2009)

I agree with MSA and Kurlee that 4b hair is misunderstood and usually seen as the "bad" hair IRL. That's one reason I used to over process my hair. I was not ashamed of it, but I thought it meant my hair was "undone" if the natural texture started to show through. As a 4b, I did not think I had nice hair and was not likely to go to a hairboard where I assumed 3's with silky, curly, long swinging hair would be congregating. It's other hair issues that brought me to a hair board (ratty looking breakage). I did not think I could have long healthy hair...but now I do.


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## knt1229 (Sep 26, 2009)

The reason some folk think 4b is rare is the abundance of relaxed and weaved heads. 

To my understanding, 4b hair is the most common hair texture amongst African Americans. However, you can't tell it when visiting hair boards. Most hairboard participants are 3c or 3c/4a. The hair boards do not represent what I see on a daily basis IRL. 

4b hair is *assumed* to be the worst kind of kinky but what many folk don't realize is that a healthy head of 4b hair is just as fly and beautiful as any type 3. 4b can also be soft and manageable mine is. 4b is not necessarily coarse and unmanageable. So most folk assume it's rare because they don't see this mass of unruly, untameable cotton they have been misinformed about.


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## BlackMasterPiece (Sep 26, 2009)

msa said:


> I don't think they're uncommon, just not common on hairboards. Why?
> -*4b's are most likely to be relaxed so you don't necessarily see them
> -in the real world their hair is considered the worst so I think if they are brainwashed by the community then they believe the bad stuff about their hair and aren't likely to be looking for haircare tips in the first place and are more worried about straightening it, styling it, or keeping it hidden.*
> -hairboards like lhcf are the least supportive of that hair type (despite the lipservice to the contrary) so they are more likely to be on np or just lurk instead of participating.
> ...


Couldn't agree with you more.



Kurlee said:


> *i think that people misunderstand the 4b hair type.  As soon as they see really small curls, they say 4b.*  It's pretty simple 4a = smallest range of curls whether fine, medium or coarse and *4b= zigzag, no curl "cnapp" type hair. *To be very honest, I rarely see people with this hair type.  Almost everyone I see who claims 4b, is usually a much looser hair type and people kinda assume that coarse = 4b.


 YES hair typing is pretty straightforward if you ask me, obviously there are some with combo's but overall 4a is the smallest curl diameter that can more accurately be described as coils and 4b's have no definite curl pattern and form a z shape.....I'm sorry but it REALLY irks me when I see people claim 4a/b and they have curls visible from a foot away or further.......some genuine 4b newbie is gonna look to you and theink they can just lay their hair down with some gel and have waves and its just not going down like that. Please claim your actual type! 



mwedzi said:


> Celina, most people on this board self-identify as 4a/b.  There's a poll somewhere around here for "what is your hair type?"  You can also see how many people are 4b.  If I can find it, I'll bump it.
> 
> *I don't think it's uncommon, but it does seem a lot less common than I thought.  Especially on hair boards.  I have some theories about that, but they're unpopular. *I think the rate would be higher in the general AA population, not sure about other countries, though my own travels say it would at least be higher in black southern Africa, too.


 I wanna hear the theories!! I wanna hear it! It's probably the same thing I feel about it.


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## shunemite (Sep 26, 2009)

When I grew up in Africa, 4b hair was sooooo common. And we all hated it. And those who didn't have 4b had "good hair" and I was told over and over that I had "bad hair". We had at least 3 different kinds of 4b hair though. We had one kind we called "regular" that was like mine, which is kinky very fine strands, a kind called "super-coil" that could shrink hair as long as 12 inches down to half an inch when wet, and a kind we called "steel wool" that was real coarse. 

It wasn't until I read the infamous book by Oprah's hair stylist, "Andre talks hair" that I ever heard my hair be called "kinky" and "fine" instead of nappy and bad. I am a true 4b or 4z. 4b is one of those hair types like a dark skin tone that people grow up being told is "bad" until you finally learn to love yourself and your hair.


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## yardgirl (Sep 26, 2009)

I'm a 4B, I know for a fact that I'm a 4B. Let's put it this way, many of the people I see claiming 4B are not really 4B.


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## ThickHair (Sep 26, 2009)

4b is common but a lot of folks don't like to admit that they have 4b.  So they will search every inch of there head until they find a strand that isn't 4b, so they can claim that type.

I love my nappy hair but some just are not in love with theirs.

Also take into consideration texturizers and other things that can temporarily change a hair type.  So there are more, but some chose to hide and claim other things.

All of this is MHO


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## jupitermoon (Sep 26, 2009)

Thanks for the responses everyone.  I was just curious.  It seems to me that just about everyone that posts on the hair boards are either a 4a/3c mix or type 3.  I agree with what some of you said about 4bs being relaxed, etc.



virtuenow said:


> What is your hair type? I originally said I was 4a/b until I looked at all of the people claiming 4a & b. Alot of people who say they are 4b have a pretty loose, hanging curl too, so I have attempted to upgrade myself to 4c or z. That statment is true, her 4b is definitely not my 4b!


 
According to posters from naturallycurly.com and this hair board I am a 3c/b mix with some 3a.  My hair is loose on top but underneath I have smaller tighter curls.  My hair is medium to coarse in texture.


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## Skiggle (Sep 26, 2009)

I'm 4b!
I have plenty of friends that
are 4b..but they CLAIM something else..
like 4a or 3c.... one even said 3A., REALLY?? 

And most 4b  usually have a perm...
from my observation....

IMO, I think most people
feel that 4b and lower isn't an attractive hair type to
claim...Most people would prefer coils/curls any day...
over no coils, coarse hair...
But I love my hair type..extra thick, coarse, cottony..
I just have to find a way to battle the dryness..


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## Skiggle (Sep 26, 2009)

LOL!!

I AGREE with everybody.
*Notice*, people with coils/looser kinks
get rave reviews...
Keep your eye out!!!


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## Desarae (Sep 26, 2009)

BlackMasterPiece said:


> Couldn't agree with you more.
> 
> YES hair typing is pretty straightforward if you ask me, obviously there are some with combo's but overall 4a is the smallest curl diameter that can more accurately be described as coils and *4b's have no definite curl pattern and form a z shape.....*I'm sorry but it REALLY irks me when I see people claim 4a/b and they have curls visible from a foot away or further.......some *genuine 4b newbie is gonna look to you and theink they can just lay their hair down with some gel and have waves and its just not going down like that*. Please claim your actual type!
> 
> I wanna hear the theories!! I wanna hear it! It's probably the same thing I feel about it.


 

I disagree with these statements.

I claim 4b. My strands are not zig zag. They have a really tight curl. I was under the impression the difference between 4a and 4b is whether the curls clump together or not. Mine do not. I am relaxed now but was natural long enough to get to know my texture.

I also could lay my hair down in the front with gel and a scarf and get waves, little waves, but waves none the less.

So am I 4b or am I not claiming my actual type because i'm mistaken?

My shrunken hair: There are curls there, not zig zags.







Twistout puff with laid down waves:


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## yardgirl (Sep 26, 2009)

DesiRae said:


> I disagree with these statements.
> 
> I claim 4b. My strands are not zig zag. They have a really tight curl. I was under the impression the difference between 4a and 4b is whether the curls clump together or not. Mine do not. I am relaxed now but was natural long enough to get to know my texture.
> 
> ...





You don't look like a 4B to me at all


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## Desarae (Sep 26, 2009)

shunemite said:


> When I grew up in Africa, 4b hair was sooooo common. And we all hated it. And those who didn't have 4b had "good hair" and I was told over and over that I had "bad hair". We had at least 3 different kinds of 4b hair though. We had one kind we called "regular" that was like mine, which is kinky very fine strands, a kind called "super-coil" that could shrink hair as long as 12 inches down to half an inch when wet, and a kind we called "steel wool" that was real coarse.
> 
> It wasn't until I read the infamous book by Oprah's hair stylist, "Andre talks hair" that I ever heard my hair be called "kinky" and "fine" instead of nappy and bad. I am a true 4b or 4z. 4b is one of those hair types like a dark skin tone that people grow up being told is "bad" until you finally learn to love yourself and your hair.


 

Thank you! There is more than one strand type that fall under the 4b umbrella. I guess I have "regular" 4b hair. As most do. Still curls, but small fine and no clumps.


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## Kurlee (Sep 26, 2009)

BlackMasterPiece said:


> Couldn't agree with you more.
> 
> *YES hair typing is pretty straightforward if you ask me,* obviously there are some with combo's but overall 4a is the smallest curl diameter that can more accurately be described as coils and 4b's have no definite curl pattern and form a z shape....*.I'm sorry but it REALLY irks me when I see people claim 4a/b and they have curls visible from a foot away or further*.......some genuine 4b newbie is gonna look to you and *theink they can just lay their hair down with some gel and have waves and its just not going down like that. Please claim your actual type! *
> 
> I* wanna hear the theories!! I wanna hear it! It's probably the same thing I feel about it*.


I wanne hear theories too!

But umm yea, I don't see what is so hard to understand about it.  If you have curls smaller than 3c scary spice, then you are 4a, regardless of how coarse, dry, shrinkish and small curled your hair is.  If your hair doesn't curl, then ur 4b.  I get so annoyed when I go in a thread, hearing about a product review and I see someone with extremely loose big curls talking about 4a or b.  Or I see someone with tight curls, but curls nonetheless, talking about 4b.  I just think to myself, if your 4b, then what the hell is everyone else with tighter hair than you?  I just try to go by pics now when reading reviews on products and if their hair is similar to mine, then I know what they are doing/trying will work. I really don't understand the "over" and "under" typing


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## Desarae (Sep 26, 2009)

yardgirl said:


> You don't look like a 4B to me at all


 
So this my natural hair, looks like 4a hair to you?
I'm just not seeing it.
If I would have came in here with this pic claiming 4a, I would get stoned.
I'm too through!


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## Kurlee (Sep 26, 2009)

DesiRae said:


> I disagree with these statements.
> 
> I claim 4b. My strands are not zig zag. They have a really tight curl. I was under the impression the difference between 4a and 4b is whether the curls clump together or not. Mine do not. I am relaxed now but was natural long enough to get to know my texture.
> 
> ...


U are definitely NOT 4b.  Definitely 4a, but could be looser as it gets longer, but definitely NOT 4b!


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## Kurlee (Sep 26, 2009)

DesiRae said:


> So this my natural hair, looks like 4a hair to you?
> I'm just not seeing it.
> If I would have came in here with this pic claiming 4a, I would get stoned.
> I'm too through!


regardless of it in it's naked state, you have defined curls that are small, therefore 4a.  
I think i'm starting to "get" why there is a misconception.


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## tatiana (Sep 26, 2009)

4b is extremely common.
It is popular now where I live among the young black males to grow their hair out into fros and then into 2 strand twists and then locs.
Vast majority of these young males have beautiful thick 4b hair.
It does not make any kind of sense for most of our men folk to be 4b but we women folk be something different.


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## Kurlee (Sep 26, 2009)

shan_2001 said:


> I don't know, to be honest.  I think they are just more low-key on hair boards. And in the "real world", they are more likely to be relaxed or with locs. *And the men tend to shave their heads*.


Don't get me started on the OBSESSION with BM shaving their heads almost bald


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## Desarae (Sep 26, 2009)

Kurlee said:


> regardless of it in it's naked state, you have defined curls that are small, therefore 4a.
> I think i'm starting to "get" why there is a misconception.


 
I'm officially done with har typing.


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## Kurlee (Sep 26, 2009)

I just look at pics now


DesiRae said:


> I'm officially done with har typing.


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## beana (Sep 26, 2009)

I dont think it is at all, most of the black women i know/see IRL have 4a/b type or 4b type hair. I do think that 4b's tend to believe they are limited in how long their hair can grow IRL and that prevents many people from seeking out the resources to learn to grow long, healthy hair.


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## FAMUDva (Sep 26, 2009)

mwedzi said:


> Celina, most people on this board self-identify as 4a/b.  There's a poll somewhere around here for "what is your hair type?"  You can also see how many people are 4b.  If I can find it, I'll bump it.
> 
> I don't think it's uncommon, but it does seem a lot less common than I thought.  Especially on hair boards.  *I have some theories about that, but they're unpopular. *I think the rate would be higher in the general AA population, not sure about other countries, though my own travels say it would at least be higher in black southern Africa, too.



I wanna hear them too!    I'm sure it's the same theory I have....



BlackMasterPiece said:


> Couldn't agree with you more.
> 
> YES hair typing is pretty straightforward if you ask me, obviously there are some with combo's but overall 4a is the smallest curl diameter that can more accurately be described as coils and 4b's have no definite curl pattern and form a z shape.....I'm sorry but it REALLY irks me when I see people claim 4a/b and they have curls visible from a foot away or further.......some genuine 4b newbie is gonna look to you and theink they can just lay their hair down with some gel and have waves and its just not going down like that.* Please claim your actual type! *
> 
> I wanna hear the theories!! I wanna hear it! It's probably the same thing I feel about it.



That's what I'm always thinking, but never say "out loud" hear to remain PC.


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## Desarae (Sep 26, 2009)

So I guess AuNappturale is 4a to huh? Because she is sure claiming CNapp.

http://public.fotki.com/AuNappturale/hair_diary/2008/november/freshlywashed.html


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## Bulletproof (Sep 26, 2009)

It is because of threads like these I am so frightened to attempt to hair type myself. I just think there is so much diversity within our hair that the systems that are used now could not possibly run the gamut like we would need them to.
Just using myself as an example, and I know my hair isn't anything special or out of the ordinary, I read often that 4b hair is z patterned. I have that in the front half of my head but it is also the loosest hair on my head. That hair never had much shrinkage with or without product, maintains it's crinkly z pattern wet or dry, product or no product. It hangs down naturally as opposed to growing out first and is nowhere near cottony textured nor could it ever form an afro. It also becomes oily easily whereas my coils can absorb moisture. I don't think it could be typed as 4b but even here on this board I always read z pattern or cnapp = 4b.


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## shunemite (Sep 26, 2009)

DesiRae said:


> I disagree with these statements.
> 
> I claim 4b. My strands are not zig zag. They have a really tight curl. I was under the impression the difference between 4a and 4b is whether the curls clump together or not. Mine do not. I am relaxed now but was natural long enough to get to know my texture.
> 
> ...



I personally wouldn't call it 4a, but really _really_, who cares......... your hair is beautiful and healthy. I think the "4" category would need to be broader, but now I feel like the way we sometimes do with skin tones "you're not light, you're brown skinned", "you're not hispanic, your grandma's black" etc. It's a catch-22 coz if you said 3c other 3c's would chime in and say "I'm a 3c my hair doesn't look like that, you're a 4a".

I needed to "type" my 4b hair because I grew up thinking I had "bad" hair that would never grow. So if I saw someone mixed with long hair I thought "of-course, why not?" but nooooowwww that I see type 4's with long hair I say, "okay I can do it too".


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## knt1229 (Sep 26, 2009)

Kurlee said:


> regardless of it in it's naked state, you have defined curls that are small, therefore 4a.
> I think i'm starting to "get" why there is a misconception.


 
But aren't you supposed to type your hair in it's "naked state" and if that is Desirae's hair dry with no product then she is definitely a 4b to me. 

In order see her curls it looks like you would have to get right up on her. Even in the first pic of her hair the camera is very close to her head and the shot of her puff she looked 4b. 

I am definitely 4b and I can get waves if I wet my hair and put a scarf on it and let it dry. The waves disappear once I comb my hair though. But, the fact that she can get waves doesn't disqualify her from being a 4b hair type.


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## LaToya28 (Sep 26, 2009)

As if we need another one, Mizani has just released their new curl typing system. It's kinda hard to see, but you can check it out on facebook:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3093098&id=24196562610

MIZANI, the professional authority in multi-textured hair revolutionizes the hair care industry revealing a textured hair classification system for stylists.  The NATURAL CURL KEY describes eight distinct curl types / patterns ranging every where from Type I -Straight/Minimal Wave to Type VIII - Zig Zag Coiled and  every hair type and texture in between.

The key was developed with the support of world-renowned scientists in the U.S. and France.   This innovative guide to global hair types is based on specific shape criteria and utilizes a scientific approach to measuring features of hair strands.  This includes the curve diameter, curl index, number of twists and number of waves.  MIZANI’s Marketing & Educational Team consulted with Author & Celebrity Stylist, Diane Da Costa to provide professional stylists with a reference guide that allows them the ability to identify hair types and textures for all clients.  The guide allows stylist to determine each clients key characteristics of their hair and special needs whether it’s to moisturize, strengthen, smooth, texturize or relax and then recommend any customized regimens for treatment and haircare.

“Mizani’s approach to education is unsurpassed in the multi-ethnic category by constantly offering advancements like this diagnostic tool to equip the professional with excellence,” says Maria Cerminara, Vice President of Marketing, Mizani USA.  “The Mizani Natural Curl Key will enable our stylists to not only properly evaluate and classify their clients hair but also make informed recommendations on the best products and treatments for different hair types.”  

The NATURAL CURL KEY is available exclusively to MIZANI Stylists this September 2009.  Stylists are now able to offer in-depth consultations to their clients with a reference guide specifically designed for the multi-textured market utilizing MIZANI’s extensive line of relaxing, styling & finishing products for more options and versatility.


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## ThickHair (Sep 26, 2009)

Oh and let us not forget the folks who still claim natural after they have let a relaxer sit on their hair for a "couple of minutes".  It's like they are natural.   I have read thinnly veiled posts on this board about that.

In addition to trying to type hair while relaxed ends are still attached.  It all makes a big difference.

So the 4a\b spectrum is sloped.


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## ceebee3 (Sep 26, 2009)

I see more 4b's in real life than any other type. It is very, very common.


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## redecouvert (Sep 26, 2009)

I wasn't going to chime in but decided to..lol
It is only 2 years ago that I learned about the hair typing..and like many said it needs to be broaden and what matters is having healthy hair. Whether it is relaxed, natural, texturized, what matter is healthy hair.
I never knew what my hair type is. All I know is that I don't have any curl patterns, sometimes, i see a coily and say hello to it , my hair shrinks up to 90%, it is very wiry, very dry, very thick and I was always told that I have bad hair...
growing up, most women have relaxers, weaves, wigs..shoot i've never seen my mom with her natural hair..so until now, I still get negative comments about how bad my hair is..it doesn't matter..I love it 
here are a few pictures:
http://public.fotki.com/redecouvert...oose-hair/going-on-my-third-year/1001455.html

http://public.fotki.com/redecouverte/year-1-3/year-3/locking/month-4/1004007.html

http://public.fotki.com/redecouverte/year-1-3/year-3/locking/month-4/1004072.html


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## natalie20121 (Sep 26, 2009)

Very interesting thread. I personally was confused about hair types... Just ran to look it up and from what I read it fairly simple. No curls...4b. Curls...4a or below. I originally typed my hair as 4b but I definitely have curls they are just tight. But I guess that why i don't really like the hair typing thing because it seems like a classification system which can make some women feel insecure. 

Who cares what hair type is what. As long as our hair is healthy then we have reached the goal we strived for in the first place. We come to these boards for long healthy hair not to find out what hair type we have. I see many women with beautiful 4b hair all the time. I just don't think they are on these boards. Hell... I never knew these boards existed until a few weeks ago. I was relying on beauticians to give me healthy hair tips.


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## tocktick (Sep 26, 2009)

msa said:


> I don't think they're uncommon, just not common on hairboards. Why?
> -4b's are most likely to be relaxed so you don't necessarily see them
> -in the real world their hair is considered the worst so I think if they are brainwashed by the community then they believe the bad stuff about their hair and aren't likely to be looking for haircare tips in the first place and are more worried about straightening it, styling it, or keeping it hidden.
> -hairboards like lhcf are the least supportive of that hair type (despite the lipservice to the contrary) so they are more likely to be on np or just lurk instead of participating.
> ...



I agree. Imo, even on this board where we are "accepting" of hair types and claim to see the beauty in all, there are a ton of people with 4b hair not going natural. Not because of their "lifestyle", the maintenance, preferring the straight look, DH preference  but simply because they don't think it is acceptable to be seen in it's natural state. Period. I'm not even ragging on them but it is what it is.


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## India*32 (Sep 26, 2009)

hair_rehab said:


> When I first BCed, I thought that I was a 4b. But 7 months later I'm sure that it's 4 a/b. The curls in the front and at the nape are looser and they become tighter and tangle a little more in the crown and on the sides.



Girl,

You've just described my hair.  I know we have the same exact hair type.  Some women complain about their edges are thin.  Mines can't help but congregate.  They stick together like glue.  Now, that I'm natural my nape is really sweet.  They get tangled, but are so nice when wet.  When I was relaxed, they stayed so nappy and then started getting really thin and almost bald, probably from many years of relaxing and some stylist not washing out the relaxer.  I'm glad those days are gone.  Tell me your regimine.

India


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## jennboo (Sep 26, 2009)

DesiRae said:


> So this my natural hair, looks like 4a hair to you?
> I'm just not seeing it.
> If I would have came in here with this pic claiming 4a, I would get stoned.
> I'm too through!


 
  Your hair looks 4b to me.


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## BlackMasterPiece (Sep 26, 2009)

DesiRae said:


> I disagree with these statements.
> 
> *I claim 4b. My strands are not zig zag. *


 The very definition of a 4b hair texture is the lack of a discernible curl pattern. If you have coils or curls then you are not a 4b. 4b hair texture forms a z shaped pattern or a non-uniform shape that doesn't spiral or curl.



> They have a really tight curl.


 Tight curls like yours are 4a



> *I was under the impression the difference between 4a and 4b is whether the curls clump together or not. Mine do not. *I am relaxed now but was natural long enough to get to know my texture.


 The distinction between a 4a and 4b is that a 4a is essentially the smallest diameter of a curl that exists and 4b hair types have a non- uniform texture that doesnt have any curl to it and makes either a zig zag shape or an inconsistent pattern. Thats the difference.



> I also could lay my hair down in the front with gel and a scarf and get waves, little waves, but waves none the less.


 You have a hair type that's known as 4a silky meaning that you have very tight curls that have the ability to slick down with product and a brush.



> So am I 4b or am I not claiming my actual type because i'm mistaken?
> 
> My shrunken hair: There are curls there, not zig zags.


 _You are textbook 4a silky my love, and you had a lovely head of coils here_






Twistout puff with laid down waves:






Hope that helped hun


----------



## loulou82 (Sep 26, 2009)

I thought 4B hair was fairly common among AA and that the hair boards were not indicative of this.

Now every "Hair Type" thread I enter makes me more confused. BMP could you show us picture of what you consider classic 4B? 

I thought I was a 4A/B mix but have been told I'm 4A although many pictures of 4As and combos I've seen only faintly resemble my hair (Cheleigh and SouthernBella come to mind). Now I think Desi's hair share's similar characteristics to my own.

#1: BC
#2: Puff a day after BC
#3: Conditioner
#4: Dry
#5: Puff


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## chrisanddonniesmommy (Sep 26, 2009)

I'm a 3c/4a mix, with more of 3c. But, I do agree with the marginalized feel that some 4b women may feel.


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## Desarae (Sep 26, 2009)

Not sure where you get your "definition" but, from my experience on NP and Cnappymenow I am 4b and I'm sticking to it. Here's my view:

4b hair is hair that doesn't have a *naturally clumping *pattern.

NATURALLY, MEANING DRY HAIR WITHOUT MANIPULATION.

Some have coils some don't. We all share a lack of visible curl *definition*

I have some coils/curls but they don't clump TOGETHER.
I don't have zigzag-shaped hair strands, but the overall appearance of my hair looks like 4b...not 4A.




If i'm not 4b, than neither is Mwedzi:
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v...2/?action=view&current=worldstiniestcurls.flv


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## India*32 (Sep 26, 2009)

natalie20121 said:


> Very interesting thread. I personally was confused about hair types... Just ran to look it up and from what I read it fairly simple. No curls...4b. Curls...4a or below. I originally typed my hair as 4b but I definitely have curls they are just tight. But I guess that why i don't really like the hair typing thing because it seems like a classification system which can make some women feel insecure.
> 
> Who cares what hair type is what. As long as our hair is healthy then we have reached the goal we strived for in the first place. We come to these boards for long healthy hair not to find out what hair type we have. I see many women with beautiful 4b hair all the time. I just don't think they are on these boards. Hell... I never knew these boards existed until a few weeks ago. I was relying on beauticians to give me healthy hair tips.



Nice hair

India


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## LoveisYou (Sep 26, 2009)

See it's hard to define for me, I claimed 4B, but a lot of ppl. said I was 4a....I'm not even sure I know the difference b/n the two.


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## jennboo (Sep 26, 2009)

I don't think 4b hair is uncommon, not at all. 

Like others have stated, we may not see very many 4b heads walking around because folks with that texture are probably more likely to perm it/hide it.


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## BlackMasterPiece (Sep 26, 2009)

DesiRae said:


> Not sure where you get your "definition" but, from my experience on NP and Cnappymenow I am 4b and I'm sticking to it. Here's my view:
> 
> 4b hair is hair that doesn't have a *naturally clumping *pattern.
> 
> ...


 lol okaaayyyy.....not sure why you asked me in the first place then but okay lol

I think naturallycurly's hair type definitions are pretty straightforward and easy to understand.

I you're determined to call yourself a 4b then hey, *shrugs* I don't understand why people get so defensive about a hair identification system but hey it is what it islol


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## loulou82 (Sep 26, 2009)

Maybe it's hard to properly classify 4B because there seems to be two definitions of 4B floating around. 

One side takes Andre's word verbatim (that 4B has no curl pattern/ has a zig-zag pattern thus a person with smallest coils would get grouped with 4A). The other sides asserts that that definition is too limited and 4B does in fact have coils when you zoom in but from afar is not detectable.


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## Desarae (Sep 26, 2009)

Not defensive, just confused.

Well if you're going by NC's 4b hair type definition then yes, 4b hair is uncommon. Not too many out here with zig zag strands and no curl whatsoever.


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## msa (Sep 26, 2009)

Everyone needs to recognize the 4b is a widely ranging category. I personally believe that 4b can have a coil, it's just super small (in diameter) and you can't make out it's definition unless you're up super close (like in Nonie's pics). Basically, if I can look at a fro and see coils (because they're clearly big enough for me to see without the zoom/macro function on the camera) then you're 4a (like my hair). If I can look at it and can't tell one coil from another, then you're 4b (like Nonie or Desi or Mwedzi). 

My sister is a 4b whose hair is literally a cottony mass. No coils, no zig zags, but somehow it's just fluff. I don't even know how to describe it. My ex-so is 4b but his hair literally grows out of his head straight, no zig zags, no coils, just straight. It looks like kinky straight weave hair. Then there's people like Nonie and Desi who when you look up close they have coils, but if you were standing right next to them you wouldn't be able to see any definition of those coils if their hair dried unmanipulated with no product.

Clearly, there is a lot of variation, opinions, and misinformation. I think that's because people want to cling to the idea that 4b is this very specific thing (and is connected to a very specific hair struggle) when it really isn't.


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## imaccami (Sep 26, 2009)

Ok, so now I'm understanding that I'm 4b. Not 4a/b like I thought. I have zigzags and no curls at all. I think that this is the most common hairtype among AAs. **Off to change my siggy.**


----------



## msa (Sep 26, 2009)

Oh, I also wanted to point out that some of the 4b's people see in real life are just dry, unconditioned, badly taken care of 4a's.

Before I knew about keeping my hair conditioned and moisturized (and staying away from dry combing), I thought my hair was a 4b. It wasn't until after several months of being on lhcf and taking care of my hair that my coils actually appeared.

So, don't always judge a book by its cover.


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## mzsophisticated26 (Sep 26, 2009)

I thought I knew my hair type but I keep coming across different definitions so I have no clue. I have seen pics on growafrohairlong.com and thought I was fine 4b then I saw definition on hairlista.com and thought 4a because I have fine strands. Now with most of these definitions I think I am 4b because my new growth has no curl pattern but my hair is extremely thin.. wheww hair typing is so confusing..lol


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## silvergirl (Sep 26, 2009)

i dont think 4b is uncommon at all. i agree thst most people with 4b tend to relax more or do other styles so its not noticed. but in real life, i see more 4b's than anything else on black natural hair.


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## sylver2 (Sep 26, 2009)

Kurlee said:


> U are definitely NOT 4b.  Definitely 4a, but could be looser as it gets longer, but definitely NOT 4b!



she most certainly is 4B.!!


----------



## Bulletproof (Sep 26, 2009)

Ok question: what does naturally clumping hair look like? And is zig-zag pattern a definite characteristic of 4b hair without regard to texture of zig-zag? I am still confused because I have not had a perm that long so I remember my natural hair pretty distinctly and that zig-zag stuff in the front of my head is very loose, does not tangle and relatively easy to comb. The coils in the back which  consider must be somewhere in 4b,c,z lands are not like that at all. I guess I am trying to figure out if zig-zag can be 4a or is it only 4b?


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## msa (Sep 26, 2009)

kayex said:


> Ok question: what does naturally clumping hair look like? And is zig-zag pattern a definite characteristic of 4b hair without regard to texture of zig-zag? I am still confused because I have not had a perm that long so I remember my natural hair pretty distinctly and that zig-zag stuff in the front of my head is very loose, does not tangle and relatively easy to comb. The coils in the back which  consider must be somewhere in 4b,c,z lands are not like that at all. I guess I am trying to figure out if zig-zag can be 4a or is it only 4b?




Frankly, I don't even understand what this zig zag texture is. The way I picture it, it's like kinky straight weave hair. So it's straight but not straight like 1a hair. It sounds like that's what you have in the front of your head, and I'd consider that 4b (unless it's that way because of manipulation from pulling it back or wearing headbands a lot, especially on wet hair). 

And the back, it depends on the size of the coils. Are they large enough that other folks see you in real life and could see them? Or are they small and form a kind of "mass" of hair and not defined individual coils or clumps? If they do the kind of mass, undefined thing then I'd say that's 4b as well.

4b applies to a lot of different types of hair. Just like any of the other categories.


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## BlackMasterPiece (Sep 26, 2009)

kayex said:


> Ok question: what does naturally clumping hair look like?


Clumping has nothing to do with hair typing imo



> And is zig-zag pattern a definite characteristic of 4b hair without regard to texture of zig-zag?


 Yes hair typing is about the curl pattern or lack thereof. Fine vs. thick/coarse is a seperate sub-category



> I am still confused because I have not had a perm that long so I remember my natural hair pretty distinctly and that zig-zag stuff in the front of my head is very loose, does not tangle and relatively easy to comb. The coils in the back which  consider must be somewhere in 4b,c,z lands are not like that at all. I guess I am trying to figure out if zig-zag can be 4a or is it only 4b?


 From the way you're describing it you sound like a 4a/b


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## msa (Sep 26, 2009)

BlackMasterPiece said:


> Clumping has nothing to do with hair typing imo
> 
> *Yes hair typing is about the curl pattern or lack thereof. *Fine vs. thick/coarse is a seperate sub-category
> 
> From the way you're describing it you sound like a 4a/b




Now I see where the disagreement is coming from. I don't agree with the bold.

They are lots of people who are clearly 4b but their hair has coils. Examples: Nonie, Mscocoface, Mwedzi.


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## beans (Sep 26, 2009)

Wow. This both enlightened and confused me. My hair looks exactly like DesiRae's and I always thought I was 4a/4b. But I guess I am simply 4a. Doesn't really matter to me either way, but it's nice to finally get what the difference is.


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## msa (Sep 26, 2009)

beans said:


> Wow. This both enlightened and confused me. My hair looks exactly like DesiRae's and I always thought I was 4a/4b. But I guess I am simply 4a. Doesn't really matter to me either way, but it's nice to finally get what the difference is.




DesiRae's hair is 4b. At least, that's how a number of us feel.


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## Tene (Sep 26, 2009)

msa said:


> Everyone needs to recognize the 4b is a widely ranging category. I personally believe that 4b can have a coil, it's just super small (in diameter) and you can't make out it's definition unless you're up super close (like in Nonie's pics). Basically, if I can look at a fro and see coils (because they're clearly big enough for me to see without the zoom/macro function on the camera) then you're 4a (like my hair). If I can look at it and can't tell one coil from another, then you're 4b (like Nonie or Desi or Mwedzi).
> 
> My sister is a 4b whose hair is literally a cottony mass. No coils, no zig zags, but somehow it's just fluff. I don't even know how to describe it. My ex-so is 4b but his hair literally grows out of his head straight, no zig zags, no coils, just straight. It looks like kinky straight weave hair. Then there's people like Nonie and Desi who when you look up close they have coils, but if you were standing right next to them you wouldn't be able to see any definition of those coils if their hair dried unmanipulated with no product.
> 
> Clearly, there is a lot of variation, opinions, and misinformation. I think that's because people want to cling to the idea that 4b is this very specific thing (and is connected to a very specific hair struggle) when it really isn't.




I agree with this, there are different types of 4b as well as 4a or any other hair type.  You can't make generalizations and put everybody into one box and say this is what 4b hair is supposed to look like on every single head of hair.  You have different textures and everything else.  I'm 4a but my hair doesn't look the same as the next person with 4a hair or any of those pics in andre's hair typing system.  I think desirae's hair is 4b also and I see why people say you have to look at a person's hair without product and manipulaion.  I thought she was 4a at first until she showed her naked hair.  I also believe 4b is very common and see many black folks everyday with 4b hair.  But most do relax or cover it up with weaves or wigs.


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## beans (Sep 26, 2009)

msa said:


> DesiRae's hair is 4b. At least, that's how a number of us feel.



haha! Well, I guess I am still not getting it. Carry on, ladies. . .


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## Rocky91 (Sep 26, 2009)

at the confusion in this thread.
i vote we all just leave the hair typing systems alone for a little while, have some LHCF hair scientists convene in Stockholm for an official conference, consult with Andre and Ursula and Lorraine Massey and Tyra's stylist and the rest of them and come up with a new, tried-and-true system that makes sense.


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## Kurlee (Sep 26, 2009)

DesiRae said:


> So I guess AuNappturale is 4a to huh? Because she is sure claiming CNapp.
> 
> http://public.fotki.com/AuNappturale/hair_diary/2008/november/freshlywashed.html


i would consider her 4a.


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## ceebee3 (Sep 26, 2009)

beans said:


> haha! Well, I guess I am still not getting it. Carry on, ladies. . .


 

Me either, I thought I was there!


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## Kurlee (Sep 26, 2009)

knt1229 said:


> But aren't you supposed to type your hair in it's "naked state" and if that is Desirae's hair dry with no product then she is definitely a 4b to me.
> 
> In order see her curls it looks like you would have to get right up on her. Even in the first pic of her hair the camera is very close to her head and the shot of her puff she looked 4b.
> 
> I am definitely 4b and I can get waves if I wet my hair and put a scarf on it and let it dry. The waves disappear once I comb my hair though. But, the fact that she can get waves doesn't disqualify her from being a 4b hair type.


i have seen many a type 3 with unwet, naked hair and it does not remotely resemble a curl, so except for really loose curls, i think the best judge is wet hair .  Curly hair is curly regardless of it some types take more to enhance them than others.


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## Kurlee (Sep 26, 2009)

knt1229 said:


> But aren't you supposed to type your hair in it's "naked state" and if that is Desirae's hair dry with no product then she is definitely a 4b to me.
> 
> In order see her curls it looks like you would have to get right up on her. Even in the first pic of her hair the camera is very close to her head and the shot of her puff she looked 4b.
> 
> *I am definitely 4b and I can get waves if I wet my hair and put a scarf on it and let it dry.* The waves disappear once I comb my hair though. But, the fact that she can get waves doesn't disqualify her from being a 4b hair type.


if u comb through 3b/c hair it will puff out and lose definition, too. (puffy straight)


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## leleepop (Sep 26, 2009)

I always said Im 4a, I dont have to guts to post a pic and ask the forum though. lol


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## Kurlee (Sep 26, 2009)

tocktick said:


> I agree. Imo, even on this board where we are "accepting" of hair types and claim to see the beauty in all, there are a ton of people with 4b hair not going natural. Not because of their "lifestyle", the maintenance, preferring the straight look, *DH preference * but simply because they don't think it is acceptable to be seen in it's natural state. Period. I'm not even ragging on them but it is what it is.


******* is right*


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## knt1229 (Sep 26, 2009)

Kurlee said:


> i have seen many a type 3 with unwet, naked hair and it does not remotely resemble a curl, so except for really loose curls, i think the best judge is wet hair . Curly hair is curly regardless of it some types take more to enhance them than others.


 
For hair typing I have always read the hair should be clean, dry, and unmanipulated/no product. People whose hair clumps into curls will have those curls and clumping whether wet or dry. Unless, as stated by one poster, the hair is severly under conditioned. Even with frizz the curls and springs should be evident for the hair type to be a type 3. Doesn't make sense to claim type 3 if you have no curl pattern whatsoever.


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## knt1229 (Sep 26, 2009)

Kurlee said:


> if u comb through 3b/c hair it will puff out and lose definition, too. (puffy straight)


 
The point I was making is that waves DO NOT mean Desi doesn't have 4b hair. She can be 4b and still get a wave. I am definitely not a 3b/c nowhere even close. So my point still stands being able to get waves is not an indication of hair type.


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## Nonie (Sep 26, 2009)

IMO 4B hair is pretty common, but I don't know the proportion of mixed folks in the US so I cannot say how common it is here. But in Kenya where I come from, it is the most common hair and was the most normal hair to me when I was growing up. That 4B is considered ugly was something I found out coming to the US. Even in the UK, and I was there for 6 years, I do not recall my hair texture coming up in any discussion. Still I don't get the unease with 4B hair (although the movie _400 years w/o a comb _sort of shed some light) because I ABSOLUTELY love my hair and would dare say no other type can do as many things as 4B can.

Now, I disagree 100% with the theory that 4B hair has not got a pattern or is made of zigzags. I have 4B hair. Not 4A/B or 4A, but 4B hair. My whole family has 4B hair. I also disagree with the theory that 4A hair has the smallest coil, coz my coils are as tiny as they come and I am not 4A coz those curls are bigger. My hair cannot do things 4A hair can like WNG. 

In appearance, my hair looks like cotton, a cloud, and like wool. Sometimes it looks rough, like steel wool and could even feel scratchy. And then there are times it will form into lovely tiny coils that you can only see when you're close up. Sometimes it will clump into spirals that look like type 3 hair, but that is when I finger comb from shampooing to conditioning to rinsing, but you can only see them when I hold out a few strands because they don't hang or stand out (could be something to do with length). I get clumping spirals when I don't rake a comb through it or finger comb to separate the strands. I wouldn't dare to do that to my whole head because unlike type 3 hair, my 4B hair shrinks and doesn't hang. It curls back on itself and would form a mass that would be hard to comb.

I find it laughable that people insist that there is a hair that grows in zigzags with no pattern. Like the DNA that spells out hair characteristics somehow is smoking crack and sending out all sorts of confused info into the making of hair. Funny that this type of hair with no definition/pattern is only found in people with more than a centimeter of hair who comb it or brush it or keep it braided or stretched with products that sorta lock it in form from day to day. Funny that when it comes out of the head (look at guys who shave) it comes out with a cute curly pattern and then it suddenly realizes "Oh shoot! I'm supposed to be 4B and then starts a zigzag dance."  Whatev' Andre!

OK, so someone will tell me that the fact that no manipulation is the only way to see a pattern means it has no pattern.  If a type 1 person did not manipulate her hair, it'd fall into the state that is most normal to it and be that: straight. If a person with wavy type 2 also didn't mess with her hair, it'd fall into cascading waves. If a person with type 3 hair didn't mess with her hair, it'd fall into lovely curls. And then come the type 4's. 4A hair unmanipulated would form curls that are obvious and if product is added would stretch and dangle kinda like 3's and even clump so the curls are obvious. While 4B hair unmanipulated would form the tiniest curls ever and shrink up on itself into a compact mass that looks like a mat. If you added product, it would still shrink up, maybe even more....unless you shingle with heat to set the stretched strands and then you might see it take the form of 4A.

4B hair is often referred to as CNapp hair when it is in its manipulated form. And why is 4B hair hardly seen in its natural curly state? For the simple fact that it shrinks up and curls back on itself forming a compact mass that would be impossible to deal with if it were left like that. 4B hair locs the easiest because that's just how it is; and by the same token, not combing 4B hair is an automatic loc-ing prelude. The tiny curls would tangle badly and it'd just be easier to cut it. So anyone with 4B hair HAS TO manipulate it to keep that from happening. We rake combs or brushes through it to keep it in check. And 4B hair holds its shape (another unique characteristic of this hair) so that if you brush it, it doesn't spring back into curls like 3's but will stay like that. So do that often enough...braid it often enough...stretch it often enough...and while doing that use products that aren't "wet" and set the do and you just may never remember that your hair truly has tiny curls. 4B hair is curly.  Hence the descriptions "nappy hair" and "kinky hair" = hair with tiny/tight curls/coils.

ETA: I was thinking of Neith's point that 4B hair doesn't clump and I showed her that it can clump by doing an experiment on my hair and taking close-ups, but I would like to add that 4B hair doesn't clump as easily as 4A hair because of the size of the coils. 4A hair has big curls that cup adjacent ones easily so that several can clump to for a clear spiral. 4B hair on the other hand has such small coils that indeed clumping isn't as easy because the coils have to be lined up just so in order for the tiny coils to cup each other and any hairs that clump are so few that it's not conspicuous. So Neith, you are sorta right. 4A hair is hair that visibly/conspicuously clumps. 4B hair, not so much.


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## msa (Sep 26, 2009)

Bout time you got here Nonie. Thank you!


----------



## anon123 (Sep 26, 2009)

loulou82 said:


> Maybe it's hard to properly classify 4B because there seems to be two definitions of 4B floating around.
> 
> One side takes Andre's word verbatim (that 4B has no curl pattern/ has a zig-zag pattern thus a person with smallest coils would get grouped with 4A). The other sides asserts that that definition is too limited and 4B does in fact have coils when you zoom in but from afar is not detectable.



That is exactly what it is.  There's the Andre definition, but his doesn't make any sense.  His talks about zig zag strands.  People who say they really have zig zags generally have little shrinkage in that area.  Which goes against the super shrinkage people associate with 4b.

Then there is the "no clumping" definition, which has grown up in the internet and is not really part of the original Andre definition.

If Nonie were here, she'd say that the only difference between 4a and 4b is the coil diameter size.  I don't know if that's the only difference, but after thinking about it, I think she's got to be at least part right.  It is just impossible for a strand to grow out with a random design; our follicles don't keep changing back and forth. Even the 'z' would be the result of manipulation.  Because sure enough when I comb and my hair breaks off (as just happened  ) I see a bunch of little 'o's.  I just think the smaller the coil gets, the naturally less likely it is to clump into "curls".  

If you have beedeebees, you have coils.


----------



## keepithealthy (Sep 26, 2009)

> If you have beedeebees, you have coils.


your silly lol


----------



## BlackMasterPiece (Sep 26, 2009)

I'm so mad you said that last line *mwedzi*!!! You wrong 4 that!


----------



## Oasis (Sep 26, 2009)

I don't think as many folks that claim 4b hair actually have 4b hair. Even when people are relaxed/weaved and I see new growth I'm not seeing 4b hair.  I think 4a is more common than 4b, at least in America.

Type 3 is a lot more common among "regular black folks" than I thought, and not just on hair boards.


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## Nonie (Sep 26, 2009)

mwedzi said:


> That is exactly what it is.  There's the Andre definition, but his doesn't make any sense.  His talks about zig zag strands.  People who say they really have zig zags generally have little shrinkage in that area.  Which goes against the super shrinkage people associate with 4b.
> 
> Then there is the "no clumping" definition, which has grown up in the internet and is not really part of the original Andre definition.
> 
> ...



Great minds think alike.  I think we were posting at the same time. My post is just before yours saying the same things.  

Andre needs to come hang out with me.


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## leleepop (Sep 26, 2009)

Thanks Nonie and thanks again for the documentary of 400 years w/out a comb. These things about hair typing just does not gel with me. 

 I love love my hair and I am newly natural. I also get ALOT of compliments on my hair, in its natural state, and when I braid it out. BUT there is always someone, who takes it upon themselves, to try and tell me I shouldnt like my hair, and I would be lying if I said it doesnt bother me SOMETIMES. These ppl are in my immediate family so I have to hear it. I live in the deep south of the U.S. so thats probably y. I just try to keep myself uplifted, but I dont like the negativity of the hair typing. I truly believe that all curly hair can be cared for, the same actually, you just have to treat ALL hair like silk. I think all hair types, natural and other wise, are beautiful in its healthy state.jmho


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## Nonie (Sep 26, 2009)

Oasis said:


> I don't think as many folks that claim 4b hair actually have 4b hair. *Even when people are relaxed/weaved and I see new growth I'm not seeing 4b hair*.  I think 4a is more common than 4b, at least in America.
> 
> Type 3 is a lot more common among "regular black folks" than I thought, and not just on hair boards.



You can't really tell from growth. People will tell you they cut their hair expecting it to be one way and are shocked to see its true texture is different from what they thought. 

It's funny you see more 4A coz my friend who is relaxed used to admire my 4A puff (not my hair) and say "You can stay natural coz you have that good hurr! Feel my roots; rough as a brush. I have that nappy hair." Of course I told her that's not my hair and undid a twist to show her my hair. 

And indeed her hair felt rough. Rough as my own growth used to feel when I was relaxed. To be honest, it wasn't until 2004 when I saw my curls and when I discovered that I really had soft hair. Shea butter and other products would dry to such rough dry hair. It was funny that when mom came to visit her hair was so rough and dry to touch, just like mine used to be. Not anymore.


----------



## jupitermoon (Sep 26, 2009)

Oasis said:


> I don't think as many folks that claim 4b hair actually have 4b hair. Even when people are relaxed/weaved and I see new growth I'm not seeing 4b hair.* I think 4a is more common than 4b, at least in America.*
> 
> *Type 3 is a lot more common among "regular black folks" than I thought, and not just on hair boards*.


 
This is what I originally thought.  I don't know about blacks in other places, but I thought most African Americans have 4a, 3c/4a, or 4a/b hair and that type 3 isn't uncommon either.  By obeserving my family and friends this is mostly what I see.  Then I come to the hair boards and read posts such as "Most people do not have 4b hair like mine".  That's why I came to the conclusion that 4b hair is uncommon.  I thought 4b hair was hair with no coils/curls whatsoever, but now by reading this thread, I see I was wrong.  Hair typing is very confusing.


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## leleepop (Sep 26, 2009)

CelinaStarr said:


> This is what I originally thought.  I don't know about blacks in other places, but I thought most African Americans have 4a, 3c/4a, or 4a/b hair and that type 3 isn't uncommon either.  By obeserving my family and friends this is mostly what I see.  Then I come to the hair boards and read posts such as "Most people do not have 4b hair like mine".  That's why I came to the conclusion that 4b hair is uncommon.  I thought 4b hair was hair with no coils/curls whatsoever, but now by reading this thread, I see I was wrong.  Hair typing is very confusing.


I used to be a cosmetologist for over ten years and I never seen a '4b'.lol


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## Oasis (Sep 26, 2009)

Nonie said:


> *You can't really tell from growth.* People will tell you they cut their hair expecting it to be one way and are shocked to see its true texture is different from what they thought.
> 
> *It's funny you see more 4A coz my friend* who is relaxed used to admire my 4A puff (not my hair) and say "You can stay natural coz you have that good hurr! Feel my roots; rough as a brush. I have that nappy hair." Of course I told her that's not my hair and undid a twist to show her my hair.



Yeah,* I* can. I'm still not seeing an abundance of 4b hair. IRL I only know 2-3 people max, relaxed or natural, with solid 4b hair. Everyone is 4a or a mix of the two.

What's funny about it? Are you saying most folks I see with 4a hair are probably wearing fake hair?


----------



## ceebee3 (Sep 26, 2009)

Most of the black people I know and see everyday have hair like the people here who say they are 4b.  

I see some 3's, but mainly 4s.  I thought that was common throughout the states (I have family all over the U.S.).


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## locabouthair (Sep 26, 2009)

I think "my type" of 4b hair is uncommon.

I do notice more 3c/4a mixes on the board too.


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## jcdlox (Sep 26, 2009)

I'm totally confused now because until I read some of this thread I thought I was 4b.  I thought that included the tightest of coils OR z's with the tightness being the key.  So my natural hair is small tight coils, like the coils in a ballpoint pen, that small.  What is that 4a or b? Please enlighten erplexed


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## ceebee3 (Sep 26, 2009)

jcdlox said:


> I'm totally confused now because until I read some of this thread I thought I was 4b. I thought that included the tightest of coils OR z's with the tightness being the key. So my natural hair is small tight coils, like the coils in a ballpoint pen, that small. What is that 4a or b? Please enlighten erplexed


 
Wish I could help you.  All I know is that I'm a 4 something.  I definetly don't match the description of a 1, 2, or 3 anything.


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## Junebug D (Sep 26, 2009)

I get more confused by the day. According to Nonie and Mwedzi, I am 4b, according to everyone else I am 4a with 4b in the front & sides.  And according to that definition the "4b" hair that's incredibly easy to comb through in the front with no discernible "coil" or "curl" shape whatsoever; some people say that is just something that happens because the hair is "trained" due to manipulation & being pulled back (like into a puff or whatever).  

I've read it ALL here, but for all the years I was on NP, no one ever gave me the side eye for saying 4b. 4a/4b was not something that was claimed much at all back when I was active over there. But I guess it doesn't matter anymore to me, to be honest.


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## msa (Sep 26, 2009)

shan_2001 said:


> I get more confused by the day. According to Nonie and Mwedzi, I am 4b, according to everyone else I am 4a with 4b in the front & sides.  And according to that definition the "4b" hair that's incredibly easy to comb through in the front with no discernible "coil" or "curl" shape whatsoever; *some people say that is just something that happens because the hair is "trained" due to manipulation & being pulled back (like into a puff or whatever).*
> 
> I've read it ALL here, but for all the years I was on NP, no one ever gave me the side eye for saying 4b. 4a/4b was not something that was claimed much at all back when I was active over there. But I guess it doesn't matter anymore to me, to be honest.




I don't know how anyone could say that you aren't a 4b.

As far as the bold, I say that a lot. But it refers to all types of hair. I've noticed on the board that people say their front is this loose straightish texture that doesn't coil up at all. I just don't believe that it grew out of their heads that way. 

That top front portion of the hair gets manipulated far far more than the rest of the hair. Smoothing it back, tying the front down (when wet especially), wearing headbands, pulling it into a bun or ponytail, etc etc contributes to that area getting stretched out. 

Anyway, it's just something I noticed...and its not really a hair type...just a result of manipulation. Though some 4b's clearly have as their hair type kinky straight hair that is easily straightened.


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## Kurlee (Sep 26, 2009)

ur siggy is 


kayex said:


> Ok question: what does naturally clumping hair look like? And is zig-zag pattern a definite characteristic of 4b hair without regard to texture of zig-zag? I am still confused because I have not had a perm that long so I remember my natural hair pretty distinctly and that zig-zag stuff in the front of my head is very loose, does not tangle and relatively easy to comb. The coils in the back which  consider must be somewhere in 4b,c,z lands are not like that at all. I guess I am trying to figure out if zig-zag can be 4a or is it only 4b?


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## anon123 (Sep 26, 2009)

jcdlox said:


> I'm totally confused now because until I read some of this thread I thought I was 4b.  I thought that included the tightest of coils OR z's with the tightness being the key.  So my natural hair is small tight coils, like the coils in a ballpoint pen, that small.  What is that 4a or b? Please enlighten erplexed



I don't know.  I'm inclined to think pen spring sized coils are 4a.  Pencil to pen spring size.  Is that right, y'all?  My coils are smaller.  The picture below has coils from two parts of my head.  The one on the left is from the back which has a bigger curl, though my biggest ones are solidly the size of a pen spring, maybe a bit bigger in the very nape.  The strands themselves are also thicker.  The one on the right is from the center of my head.  The strand is a finer strand and is smaller, though not the smallest I've found on my head.  I now think the biggest curls in my nape could be called "4a" while everything else is 4b.

Left - bigger coil; Right - smaller coil







My smallest:






My biggest:






Look at these closeups!  I pulled a Nonie!


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## jennboo (Sep 26, 2009)

knt1229 said:


> *The point I was making is that waves DO NOT mean Desi doesn't have 4b hair. She can be 4b and still get a wave.* I am definitely not a 3b/c nowhere even close. So my point still stands being able to get waves is not an indication of hair type.


 
This.

I have a 4b hair type. People on this forum have said otherwise, presumably bc the hair in my siggy pic may apppear to have a slightly wavy appearance. If i did not comb my hair into those puffs, and just had a big afro, there would be not a wave, curl, or coil in sight.

MSA in another post described my hair texture to a T. It grows out of my head kinky but "straight", especially on top. Its just a head full of crinkly-straightness that appear as a cottony mass. I have no curl/coil pattern. My hair does not look like Mwedzi's and other 4b naturals who may describe their hair as "extremely tightly coiled" bc my hair has NO coil.


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## Neith (Sep 26, 2009)

I think I'm 100% 4a.  All my coils look JUST like Mwezdi's nape coil  

I have no idea how to seperate all my coils and have that much definition in all of them though.  It's very kinky, coarse and the coils have to be coaxed into playing nicely with eachother. 

Interesting because from my perspective, I'd think 4a with no mix is more rare .  

Interesting that's how the poll came out too.


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## Nonie (Sep 26, 2009)

jennboo said:


> This.
> 
> I have a 4b hair type. People on this forum have said otherwise, presumably bc the hair in my siggy pic may apppear to have a slightly wavy appearance. *If i did not comb my hair into those puffs, and just had a big afro, there would be not a wave, curl, or coil in sight*.
> 
> MSA in another post described my hair texture to a T. It grows out of my head kinky but "straight", especially on top. Its just a head full of crinkly-straightness that appear as a cottony mass. I have no curl/coil pattern. My hair does not look like Mwedzi's and other 4b naturals who may describe their hair as "extremely tightly coiled" bc my hair has NO coil.



May I ask how you generally style your hair and what products you use?  Coz your hair looks like mine in your pics. Maybe that's wishful thinking in my part coz I want my hair to look that cute  but I can bet my bottom dollar that you do have curls. (Yeah, I've been told to stop telling folks about their own hair but I don't listen.)

ETA: Your statement in bold is typically how 4B hair is. If you did not comb it, it'd shrink back into a mass and look like a brillo pad. I'm not saying it'd be hard or rough like one, but it's look like just a dark mass. It's not because it has no pattern or no definition. It's because of the compactness and tiny size of the coils. Those waves you see when you comb or brush are precisely the give-away that your hair formed coils. The waves are stretched out coils as seen here:





To the left of that pic, you cannot see any definition and it's not coz it's not there.


----------



## knt1229 (Sep 26, 2009)

jennboo said:


> This.
> 
> I have a 4b hair type. People on this forum have said otherwise, presumably bc the hair in my siggy pic may apppear to have a slightly wavy appearance. If i did not comb my hair into those puffs, and just had a big afro, there would be not a wave, curl, or coil in sight.
> 
> MSA in another post described my hair texture to a T. It grows out of my head kinky but "straight", especially on top. Its just a head full of crinkly-straightness that appear as a cottony mass. I have no curl/coil pattern. My hair does not look like Mwedzi's and other 4b naturals who may describe their hair as "extremely tightly coiled" bc my hair has NO coil.


 
I'm a 4b too. My natural hair texture is krinkly, kinky-straight, then frizzy on the ends. There are some waves and coils but once I brush or comb it they disappear. My hair straightens and lays flat easily. It's soft and manageable too as long as it's moisturized. 4b hair is so misunderstood. I think most people attribute all the negative things to it like coarseness, unmanageable, hard to deal with, etc. And noone ever really talks about all the positive attributes it has. That's why when folk see a curl, coil, wave, or soft looking hair they suddenly start saying you can't be a 4b.

P.S. I like ur puffs.


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## Kurlee (Sep 26, 2009)

Nonie said:


> May I ask how you generally style your hair and what products you use?  Coz your hair looks like mine in your pics. Maybe that's wishful thinking in my part coz I want my hair to look that cute  but I can bet my bottom dollar that you do have curls. (Yeah, I've been told to stop telling folks about their own hair but I don't listen.)
> 
> ETA: Your statement in bold is typically how 4B hair is. If you did not comb it, it'd shrink back into a mass and look like a brillo pad. I'm not saying it'd be hard or rough like one, but it's look like just a dark mass. It's not because it has no pattern or no definition. It's because of the compactness and tiny size of the coils. Those waves you see when you comb or brush are precisely the give-away that your hair formed coils. The waves are stretched out coils as seen here:
> 
> ...


 your texture is sessy


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## Kurlee (Sep 26, 2009)

jennboo said:


> This.
> 
> I have a 4b hair type. People on this forum have said otherwise, presumably bc the hair in my siggy pic may apppear to have a slightly wavy appearance. If i did not comb my hair into those puffs, and just had a big afro, there would be not a wave, curl, or coil in sight.
> 
> MSA in another post described my hair texture to a T. It grows out of my head kinky but "straight", especially on top. Its just a head full of crinkly-straightness that appear as a cottony mass. I have no curl/coil pattern. My hair does not look like Mwedzi's and other 4b naturals who may describe their hair as "extremely tightly coiled" bc my hair has NO coil.


After seeing your hair, it is DEFINITELY nothing like 4b and very curly and a pretty big size and easy to see. After reading this thread, I realize that perception is everything and everyone simply does not see the same things.  I will just stick to pictures to judge how similar to mine someones hair is, when it comes to trying products, regimens, etc.  My description will just be big curls, small curls, etc.  The typing is simply something that most will not be able to agree on.


----------



## Junebug D (Sep 26, 2009)

Nonie said:


> May I ask how you generally style your hair and what products you use?  Coz your hair looks like mine in your pics. Maybe that's wishful thinking in my part coz I want my hair to look that cute  but I can bet my bottom dollar that you do have curls. (Yeah, I've been told to stop telling folks about their own hair but I don't listen.)
> 
> ETA: Your statement in bold is typically how 4B hair is. If you did not comb it, it'd shrink back into a mass and look like a brillo pad. I'm not saying it'd be hard or rough like one, but it's look like just a dark mass. It's not because it has no pattern or no definition. It's because of the compactness and tiny size of the coils. Those waves you see when you comb or brush are precisely the give-away that your hair formed coils. The waves are stretched out coils as seen here:
> 
> ...



Mine looked exactly like this in its final days.


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## msa (Sep 26, 2009)

Neith said:


> I think I'm 100% 4a.  All my coils look JUST like Mwezdi's nape coil
> 
> I have no idea how to seperate all my coils and have that much definition in all of them though.  It's very kinky, coarse and the coils have to be coaxed into playing nicely with eachother.
> 
> ...



I think we have similar hair...not that our coils look the same...but that we have 4a hair with 4b behavior. That's why I say I'm 4a/b because though I clearly have coils, the way they act with each other is just like how people with 4b hairs interact. If that makes sense.

I think a 100% 4a is very rare. I know there's one on this site but I can't remember her name. But she literally has all 4a coils and they are all separate and distinct.


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## NerdSauce (Sep 26, 2009)

I replied that I am type 4a/b. Mostly because of what I've seen here on this forum.

After reading this though, I don't think I am. While i think some people conflate the level of coarseness with curl diameter (what measure are we using for typing anyways) I don't think any of my hair fits in measures of 4b.

-I have a definable curl pattern.
-I have never spied a single zigzag strand anywhere on my head, ever. I'm still searching.

The reasons why its confusing:
- I have a lot of frizz. Like lots.
-Unlike a lot of people, my hair MOSTLY doesn't make coils that easily when I shingle it, it makes S waves (albeit small ones.) Quite a lot of my hair that does coil has those weird little irregularities, like where the coil seems to suddenly change directions. Individual strands will sort of coil, like my shed hair will often make spirals before eventually collapsing into O's (sometimes.)
-As you can probably gather, my hair has little to no consistency (I even have random strands that look straight! no head damage, just randomly placed all over my head, and I've always had them... they look straight because their curl/wave diameter is a loooot wider than the rest of my hair.)--and it's not even really long enough to completely hang yet, so I'm not really sure what's going on. 
--If pressed I would honestly define Nonie's hair as 4a. It kind of reminds me of my sisters. Her curl diameter is tinnnny (probably smaller than Nonies in a lot of places) but it needs just about ZERO coaxing to see some sort of coil definition. She's mentioned finding zig zag strands.

I think hair like *Jennboo* and *Mooks* is really interesting and looks really cool... it seems lighter and fluffier but as they say, no curl pattern.

But yeah, where are the small S-wave/somewhat coily/doesn't seem to coil as easily as others 4a's with NO zigzags and like, 80-90% possible clumpage? What type does that make me


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## NerdSauce (Sep 26, 2009)

Oh. MSA might be on to something.. 4a hair with 4b behavior? I'll have to find some pics or take some pics and see how they stack up.


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## jetbeauty09 (Sep 26, 2009)

jennboo said:


> This.
> 
> I have a 4b hair type. People on this forum have said otherwise, presumably bc the hair in my siggy pic may apppear to have a slightly wavy appearance. If i did not comb my hair into those puffs, and just had a big afro, there would be not a wave, curl, or coil in sight.
> 
> MSA in another post described my hair texture to a T. It grows out of my head kinky but "straight", especially on top. Its just a head full of crinkly-straightness that appear as a cottony mass. I have no curl/coil pattern. My hair does not look like Mwedzi's and other 4b naturals who may describe their hair as "extremely tightly coiled" bc my hair has NO coil.


 
Umm, nope. Your 4b looks nothing like my 4b. I don't have 4b all over my hair, especially in the back. But where it _is _located, its true 4b. 4b hair is not waves or curls. Point blank period. If you see that, you don't have it. There is no if I ______, then waves appear. Thats not 4b hair. I don't understand the big deal though. Just move to the next hair type or just avoid typing your hair.


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## afiya27 (Sep 26, 2009)

shunemite said:


> *When I grew up in Africa*, 4b hair was sooooo common. And we all hated it. And those who didn't have 4b had "good hair" and I was told over and over that I had "bad hair". We had at least 3 different kinds of 4b hair though. We had one kind we called "regular" that was like mine, which is kinky very fine strands, a kind called "super-coil" that could shrink hair as long as 12 inches down to half an inch when wet, and a kind we called "steel wool" that was real coarse.
> 
> It wasn't until I read the infamous book by Oprah's hair stylist, "Andre talks hair" that I ever heard my hair be called "kinky" and "fine" instead of nappy and bad. I am a true 4b or 4z. 4b is one of those hair types like a dark skin tone that people grow up being told is "bad" until you finally learn to love yourself and your hair.



The bolded part of the above statement brought me close to tears!  The rest of it, especially if written by descendants of slaves (i.e. folks from the U.S., Caribbean, and/or South America) is pretty typical ... But it's SOOO disturbing to me that this SAME discourse is going on in AFRICA where dark skin and nappy hair is INDIGENOUS/ORIGINATES!  If there were any other place on EARTH that black folk should be able to "let their hair down" and/or accept their natural selves, it SHOULD be there!  A SAD testimony IMHO...What are we gonna do yall?  erplexed


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## msa (Sep 26, 2009)

jetbeauty09 said:


> Umm, nope. Your 4b looks nothing like my 4b. I don't have 4b all over my hair, especially in the back. But where it _is _located, its true 4b. 4b hair is not waves or curls. Point blank period. If you see that, you don't have it. There is no if I ______, then waves appear. Thats not 4b hair. I don't understand the big deal though. Just move to the next hair type or just avoid typing your hair.




See this is the confusion right here.

Clearly some people believe 4b has no waves, curls, or coils.* If it lacks waves/curls/coils then it must be straight. *In which case, it may as well be type 1 hair, but just type 1b (ie kinky straight).

But this isn't the case. 4b hair forms a fro because it isn't straight. It has some type of "texture" to it. *The thing is, no matter what, everyone's 4b is not going to look the same or have the same exact characteristics*.

I truly believe that 4b hair can have:
-waves (or zig zags or kinks as some call it) ie kinky straight
-coils, but very very small and not separate/defined like those who have 4a hair
-a mixture of both

What defines 4b is not the "lack" of something...it's the size of it. 4b's are characterized by tiny crinkly waves or tiny coils. If you think about it the hair typing chart goes from straight...to loose waves...to tighter waves...to loose curls...to tighter curls...to coils...to tiny little coils/waves/crinkles/kinks.


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## Junebug D (Sep 26, 2009)

> If pressed I would honestly define Nonie's hair as 4a. It kind of reminds me of my sisters. Her curl diameter is tinnnny (probably smaller than Nonies in a lot of places) but it needs just about ZERO coaxing to see some sort of coil definition. She's mentioned finding zig zag strands.


See, my hair looked like Nonie's after *only* after it was being DC'd on a regular basis, and it was months afterwards too. I've been weekly DC'ing since November of last year, and my hair only started to do what Nonie's does in the last 2 months.

And the thing is... it ONLY does that when it's wet and post DC. And I don't think wet hair pics are the best representative of hair texture you claim anyway. It's clean, DRY hair where I would feel comfortable determining type. As soon as it is dry, even left totally unmanipulated, those coils disappear entirely. And I know because that's all I did for the last 3 weeks.  

As an aside, my hair could never look like Jennboo's, or Mook's, for that matter.  I do believe our hair is much more complicated and varied than Andre or anyone's system has devised thus far.

And it also even may be just the various things we use on our hair.  Do 2 different conditioners provide the same results?  Everyone's hair is kinda in a different state at a different time, if you think about it. That may be so-and-so's wet 4b hair, but so-and-so's wet 4b hair looks different because maybe her hair is a little less healthy or has some microscopic damage from the sun or something?   Like I used the Joico K-pak Reconstructor a couple weeks ago, and it "healed" a heat-stretched section of my hair that I'd had since June.    So maybe even just the things that you condition with affect the shape of your strands.


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## Desarae (Sep 26, 2009)

Kurlee said:


> After seeing your hair, it is DEFINITELY nothing like 4b and very curly and a pretty big size and easy to see. After reading this thread, I realize that perception is everything and everyone simply does not see the same things. I will just stick to pictures to judge how similar to mine someones hair is, when it comes to trying products, regimens, etc. My description will just be big curls, small curls, etc. The typing is simply something that most will not be able to agree on.


 

Is there anyone who has 4b hair according to your perception? 

And for the people who claim to have no curl pattern/wave/kink/coil do you have pics/closeups i'm curious to see what 4b is from anyone who says i'm not.


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## Neith (Sep 26, 2009)

msa said:


> I think we have similar hair...not that our coils look the same...but that we have 4a hair with 4b behavior. That's why I say I'm 4a/b because though I clearly have coils, the way they act with each other is just like how people with 4b hairs interact. If that makes sense.
> 
> I think a 100% 4a is very rare. I know there's one on this site but I can't remember her name. But she literally has all 4a coils and they are all separate and distinct.




While I'm detangling and while my hair is wet, I clearly see my coils and they do clump together like type 3 hair.  If I really went through and reinforced every little coil, I could coax my hair into little tiny spirals.  

I tried it on a section of my hair, but it's SO time intensive, it's really not worth it for me  

Wash day is soon, maybe I'll do a section up and take pics.


If I leave my hair to do it's own thing, it basically comes out like this:







You can see coils, but they are definitely not playing nice 

If I dry combed this out, or didn't wet it daily, it'd look nearly identical to 4b hair.

That's another thing I tried out, but my hair is so uneven it looks too weird to take pics.  Don't want to show my lopsided afro. lol

So yeah, 4a can be a little funny.  *There is a lot of variety in 4a and 4b hair *

I consider myself 4a.  Who knows, maybe there is some 4b in there along for the ride.  

I think being "pure" anything is a little bit more rare than having a mix too.


----------



## Nonie (Sep 26, 2009)

afiya27 said:


> The bolded part of the above statement brought me close to tears!  The rest of it, especially if written by descendants of slaves (i.e. folks from the U.S., Caribbean, and/or South America) is pretty typical ... But it's SOOO disturbing to me that this SAME discourse is going on in AFRICA where dark skin and nappy hair is INDIGENOUS/ORIGINATES!  If there were any other place on EARTH that black folk should be able to "let their hair down" and/or accept their natural selves, it SHOULD be there!  A SAD testimony IMHO...What are we gonna do yall?  erplexed



I grew up in Africa. Left there when I was 18 and I swear to you I never heard negativity toward 4B hair living there. We all had it; most of us anyway and it was all we knew. We have Arab people living in Kenya. We have mixed people living in Kenya. So you could sorta say we have quite a spectrum of types there. But never in all my life, had I come across our hair being bad. I'm not saying that just to appear special or like I'm above negativity. Maybe if I had grown around the same negativity as some, I'd feel like a lot of people do. But I never did. I went to a boarding school where black people wore from straight perms to curly perms aka jheri curl to bald to natural TWAs to long "stretch-to-BSL" natural hair, you name it! The only thing I remember admiring and wishing I had was long hair. Not even long flowing hair or bouncy hair. I wanted a big puff like Sonce can make. I had a friend who could make a puff like MizzBrit and I envied her so coz I couldn't. Unless this is a new African trend of hating 4B, or unless it was common elsewhere, I never came across it. And I grew up in the city, and went to a national school where people from all over the country would go, so it's not like I lived in seclusion in a bush where we knew nothing else but our own. 

BTW, my mom came to visit me last year and she was tickled pink that type 3 hair is such a hit here (Of course she found me talking hair more than she remembers  ). Her comment (no offense 3's) was "Really? And how much we hate that slimy hair back home." I'm not sure who "we" was (maybe her generation, maybe the community I grew in), but definitely not me. I never cared one way or another about anyone's texture. Maybe I'm so self-absorbed and content that I really didn't wonder about stuff that wasn't about me. I did one time feel sorry for my mixed friend with long type 3 hair that wouldn't cooperate when I tried to style it like mine (I thought it'd behave like Barbie's (Cindy was what our Barbie was called) but it just flopped all over the place and didn't curl from brushing or hold a braid  ). Otherwise I swear hair was such non-issue in our minds that when Mwedzi talks about how she never even realized her hair was any different or whatever it is she once wrote, I wondered for a minute if she might've grown up in Africa. Coz that's just how it was. 

BTW, please don't think I look down on people who are uncomfortable with 4B hair. I can't imagine what it's like growing in an environment where that's looked down on and where your hair becomes such an issue. 400 Hundred Years Without a Comb really helps put things into perspective.


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## *Happily Me* (Sep 26, 2009)

interesting thread 

I didn't know 4b hair had coils.


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## Nonie (Sep 26, 2009)

shan_2001 said:


> *See, my hair looked like Nonie's after *only* after it was being DC'd on a regular basis, and it was months afterwards too. I've been weekly DC'ing since November of last year, and my hair only started to do what Nonie's does in the last 2 months.*
> 
> And the thing is... *it ONLY does that when it's wet and post DC. And I don't think wet hair pics are the best representative of hair texture you claim anyway. It's clean, DRY hair where I would feel comfortable determining type. As soon as it is dry, even left totally unmanipulated, those coils disappear entirely. And I know because that's all I did for the last 3 weeks. *
> 
> ...



*You mention that your hair did that when it was DC'd. I am yet to see hair that wasn't in better condition after DCing which means that your hair behaves as itself best when it's been given all the nourishment it needs. If you were not eating right, I guarantee you your hair would behave differently and appear different.*

*If your hair looked curly wet, I bet my bottom dollar that if you leave it alone, it will dry curly. It may shrink up but the curls are there. Problem is I know you didn't leave it alone untouched and unmanipulated. You combed it or brushed it or braided it. 4B hair cannot be left alone for 3 weeks without turning into locs or one big matted carpet. So I'm sure you didnt see your coils because you did something to your hair. 4B hair doesn't lose its curl when it dries. It loses its curl when you do something to it. *

*You may be right about the spectrum being wider than Andre thought. *

I don't think products like different conditioners would change texture. In the pics I've shown curls I've used different conditioners and still same coils. But I do think that some leave-in products can make your hair feel different. Shea butter if applied to my hair and then combed then braided would give the CNapp/no pattern look to my hair with little shrinkage and my hair would feel hard/rough. S Curl on the other hand when applied to my hair and combed then braided would give the look of circles all crammed together and shrink and be soft to touch. I also agree damage be it physical, thermal or chemical can make hair behave differently. I can tell when my ends are in bad condition--the plight of ends anyway--because the ends do not curl like the rest of the hair. If I don't snip them off, in a few weeks the hair thins badly on a larger portion of that end as if it's extending further down the strand. It's as if when the hair tears open, it loses it's ability to shrink and just hangs.


----------



## Skiggle (Sep 26, 2009)

Nonie said:


> *BTW, please don't think I look down on people who are uncomfortable with 4B hair.* I can't imagine what it's like growing in an environment where that's looked down on and where your hair becomes such an issue. 400 Hundred Years Without a Comb really helps put things into perspective.




I agree with your posts. I have know problem
with being uncomfortable with your hair
type, it just frustrates me when
I see someone in denial about  their hair type
.  I see people
trying to define all their CURLS
with all the gel/mousse in the world..
when this task fail and there is know definition they
blame the products.. I've been in too
many arguments/confrontations about this hair type thing
...the females at my university all claim 3c or higher...erplexed..
All I can do is smh.. this make me the *only* type 4 in my group..
Literally this action makes me sick...
They way I see it around here * my area*  if you
wanna be popular claim something higher..*so called good
hair category*
no one wants to be in the reject category *4b*..


----------



## almond eyes (Sep 26, 2009)

Give me a break, I have seen many 4B hair that is gorgeous twa and long. That hair is very easy to straighten and looks straight when air-dried. The thing is that most women with that hair texture think it cannot grow so they constantly cut it or don't use the right products to make it more moisturised. I am always jealous of my friend who only has to braid her hair into several plaits and she has hair that looks like it was blown out. 

Best,
Almond Eyes


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## Nonie (Sep 26, 2009)

RedPanda said:


> I replied that I am type 4a/b. Mostly because of what I've seen here on this forum.
> 
> After reading this though, I don't think I am. While i think some people conflate the level of coarseness with curl diameter (what measure are we using for typing anyways) I don't think any of my hair fits in measures of 4b.
> 
> ...



I believe if I shingled my hair, I'd get waves. Shingling involves applying something that weighs on the hair and stretches it and brushing to encourage the stretching and then going under a dryer with the strands stretched so they'd dry like that then finger combing. That's because with the size of the coil, the coils need to be open to clump in a way that's visible for a style to be visible but not so straight that they look like blow-dried hair. 

When people with 4B hair go to Miss Jessie's to get that shingled look, if they don't want a silkener, they get it set in some coiling way to form the illusion of 4A or 3 hair like the lady who's third on this page: http://www.missjessies.com/beforeafter3.html 

The fact that you have curls with large hair diameter could mean you have two types of hair. All my coils look the same all over my head. 

My hair can never be 4A.  When you say that my hair just falls into coils with minimal coaxing, you forget that you can only see that on a small section. On the whole you wouldn't see anything. It would look like this:





4A hair can behave like 4B hair in that it can be combed into an afro and can hold a style too. It can also appear to bend every which way especially when out of braids. I believe the curl size is what makes it behave differently so that it clumps more easily and shows the coils more easily.

BTW, the irregularities of hair bending this way and that way is a character of all curly hair. Even phone coils will bend awkwardly in a spot for no apparent reason. The narrower the diameter of the "string" in question, the more this awkward bending occurs. I tried to show this on Nadia's 4A hair:




Interestingly that's happening on clumps but still the diameter of the clump is small enough for it to do that.

You can see those irregular bends in other naturally curly hair:


----------



## NerdSauce (Sep 26, 2009)

Nonie said:


> My hair can never be 4A.  When you say that my hair just falls into coils with minimal coaxing, you forget that you can only see that on a small section.



Thanks for your reply. Actually I think my hair sometimes looks a lot like Nadia's hair, with a few slight differences. I need to get around to just posting a picture. 

And when I was talking about hair falling into coils with minimal coaxing, I was referring mainly to my sisters coils. I know that you said your hair had to be smoothed into those boingy springs (which I am mad jealous of. If I have a completely regular boingy curl anywhere on my head, I haven't quite seen it yet.)


----------



## Kurlee (Sep 26, 2009)

DesiRae said:


> Is there anyone who has 4b hair according to your perception?
> 
> And for the people who claim to have no curl pattern/wave/kink/coil do you have pics/closeups i'm curious to see what 4b is from anyone who says i'm not.


yes.  I have seen people with that crinkly z pattern hair, but it is rare.  The hair isn't super sharp z like many are describing, but the pattern is sharp angles instead of rounded, if that makes sense and it has that puffy straight look. I rarely see it though. 

To be honest, I think this hair typing thing is really separating people into good hair/bad hair categories indirectly. I really feel like despite learning new hair practices, many still truly believe that 3's have good hair, and 4b is the "bad" hair. The reason why people voluntarily jump into the 4b category when their hair is clearly curly,  I don't understand that. I don't really see many saying they are a 3 hair type when they are not, so the reverse, I find interesting.  I think people truly believe in their gut that certain hair types only are on "certain people" and that's why we have these long threads breaking down hair types to a science when in reality the categories don't mean much. This thread and a few others show how misinformed we still are about our hair and how much emotional weight our hair carries.


----------



## msa (Sep 26, 2009)

Kurlee said:


> I really feel like despite learning new hair practices, many still truly believe that 3's have good hair, and 4b is the "bad" hair. *The reason why people voluntarily jump into the 4b category when their hair is clearly curly,  I don't understand that.* I don't really see many saying they are a 3 hair type when they are not, so the reverse, I find interesting.



Regarding the bold, because then when they post a thread about their "4b" hair it makes them feel good when everyone runs in, oohs and aaahs over their obvious curls, and tells them they're actually a type 3 and have good hair.


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## Rocky91 (Sep 26, 2009)

msa said:


> Regarding the bold, because then when they post a thread about their "4b" hair it makes them feel good when everyone runs in, oohs and aaahs over their obvious curls, and tells them they're actually a type 3 and have good hair.


you're gonna hurt somebody's feelings with this.
but i'll admit i kind of agree.


----------



## SND411 (Sep 26, 2009)

msa said:


> Regarding the bold, because then when they post a thread about their "4b" hair it makes them feel good when everyone runs in, oohs and aaahs over their obvious curls, and tells them they're actually a type 3 and have good hair.



So true, MSA. Like fishing for compliments.


----------



## SND411 (Sep 26, 2009)

Why do we have to be so complicated? If you know how to take care of your hair after 2 years, why are you still hung up on hair type?


----------



## Kurlee (Sep 26, 2009)

Rocky91 said:


> you're gonna hurt somebody's feelings with this.
> but i'll admit i kind of agree.


Man msa doesn't mince words. I agree though, but I think there's more to it.


----------



## Kurlee (Sep 26, 2009)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> Why do we have to be so complicated? If you know how to take care of your hair after 2 years, why are you still hung up on hair type?


compulsion to categorize and explain why your hair looks, behaves the way it does. In reality though, it really isn't that serious


----------



## SND411 (Sep 26, 2009)

Kurlee said:


> compulsion to categorize and explain why your hair looks, behaves the way it does. In reality though, it really isn't that serious



It seems like everything with black people ALWAYS has to be complicated. I mean, look at skin color for instance. In Brazil and other countries with a large black population, it is said there is like over 200 different words black people describe themselves, and BLACK not even being on of them!!!! 

I thought hair typing was to get the best products for your hair. 

You know what I'll never understand? When people say. I am 4a/b with 3c STRANDS. I mean, WHAT IS THE POINT OF THAT!


----------



## Nonie (Sep 26, 2009)

^^ True. When I first heard of typing, I thought it was useful because it helped you decide on products to use. But it doesn't. My hair hates all things people like regardless of type except S Curl. Creams/cremes suck. Butters suck. Gels suck. Maybe I just have mutant hair. 

But you're all right, unless you are trying to find out whose regimen to follow what does it matter???


----------



## SND411 (Sep 26, 2009)

Nonie said:


> ^^ True. When I first heard of typing, I thought it was useful because it helped you decide on products to use. But it doesn't. My hair hates all things people like regardless of type except S Curl. Creams/cremes suck. Butters suck. Gels suck. Maybe I just have mutant hair.
> 
> But you're all right, unless you are trying to find out whose regimen to follow what does it matter???



Growing up in a Nigerian household, I was NEVER told I had bad hair. In fact, people always drooled over my hair saying how thick it was. So with me, it's not even about texture. I like THICK hair.


----------



## Rocky91 (Sep 26, 2009)

Nonie said:


> ^^ *True. When I first heard of typing, I thought it was useful because it helped you decide on products to use. But it doesn't*. My hair hates all things people like regardless of type except S Curl. Creams/cremes suck. Butters suck. Gels suck. Maybe I just have mutant hair.
> *
> But you're all right, unless you are trying to find out whose regimen to follow what does it matter???*


and there we have it-the bottom line, folks. as a (dare I say it?) 4a/b natural, I've gotten the BEST product/regimen recommendations from Traycee on KISS, who's relaxed. which might not be the greatest example to prove my point, since we're still in the same type family (although she's relaxed), but you get my point. for me, personally, i don't find this hair-typing stuff incredibly useful.
a picture is worth a thousand words.


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## Nonie (Sep 26, 2009)

msa said:


> Regarding the bold, because then when they post a thread about their "4b" hair it makes them feel good when everyone runs in, oohs and aaahs over their obvious curls, and tells them they're actually a type 3 and have good hair.



 But 4B hair also can look like the green part of a sponge that provides the scrubbing function too, so what's all the excitement with having curls. Methinks they just know 4B rocks and 4B can do a lot of things other hair can't do and so they wanna be with the cool hair. 

To be honest, I haven't seen anyone claim 4B that I didn't agree with. And many who thought were 4B later realize they aren't and they don't fight to be what they aren't ie 4B. I just think people are shocked that 4B hair is finally being accepted as OK hair and hence the assumption that it's good hurr pulling us all into this bunch.

I mean 4B hair has kinks (tight coils) but it doesn't look anything like 3 so I dunno. Maybe I can't see the "ooh I wanna be 4B coz it has cute curls" being a reason to claim it when you can claim 4A which IMO behaves more like 3. 

Anyway I can't talk for people. Just like I don't understand the aversion to hair I love so, I can't understand the assumption that people would claim coz of curls that never even show up.

If curls are what draws majority to 4B and not the fact that a huge chunk of the African race has 4B, then will knowing that it is also the same hair that looks CNapp drive them away?


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## Desarae (Sep 26, 2009)

Well i'm now claiming 1a hair because i'm relaxed and my hair dries straight. Thank you all!


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## keepithealthy (Sep 26, 2009)

I seem to have quite a few textures on my head. It's really loose in the back and up around the crown of my head is 3b but not like some 3b's I've seen. (My hair seems to have a lot of texture just very loosely curled...dunno if that makes since). Then the inner circle is 4a  visibly small spiral curls with a small inner patch being very very very drrrry I thought it was 4b but after a couple of good dc's and keeping it moisturized realized it was 4a too. It is still drier than the rest of my head and I usually have to moisturize that part more. What's weird is scattered through out my head especially in the front are pieces of 3a hair. I mean these pieces are literally silky smooth lol It's actually kinda of annoying because they visibly look different than the rest of my head and people have commented on it lol so I use gel and make those pieces just as curly as the rest of my head. It's weird because in the morning when I look in the mirror my head looks dry except for those pieces. There they are looking shiny and silky and hanging scattered throughout. lol You can feel the different kinds of textures when you run your hands through my head. 

Also if I comb my hair out it will look 4bish and my niece and nephew love when I do it they say "Rock the fro aunty" lol But when I wet it the hair curls up and if I don't brush or comb it. It stays curly. 

Maybe some 4a's are combing there curls out and it looks 4bish to them but if they leave it alone it would prob look more 4a 

I dunno I just keep trying products till I find something that works then I stick with it.
This was an interesting thread though......


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## ceecy29 (Sep 26, 2009)

afiya27 said:


> The bolded part of the above statement brought me close to tears!  The rest of it, especially if written by descendants of slaves (i.e. folks from the U.S., Caribbean, and/or South America) is pretty typical ... But it's SOOO disturbing to me that this SAME discourse is going on in AFRICA where dark skin and nappy hair is INDIGENOUS/ORIGINATES! If there were any other place on EARTH that black folk should be able to "let their hair down" and/or accept their natural selves, it SHOULD be there! A SAD testimony IMHO...What are we gonna do yall? erplexed


 
Please believe it happens. Worse than you can imagine. I don't know, I think East/South Africans are much more accepting of natural hair (then again, I have a Kenyan friend who says natural hair was never an option). But down in the West (ok maybe I should speak for Nigeria where I'm from) you hear all sorts of ridiculous comments being made. From "oh! You're not going to find a husband to marry you" to "you better put that weave back in" LOL!!! And I guess that's why it seems uncommon, people are busy trying to do stuff to hide that oh-so-bad 4b hair. I don't know what we'll have to do about it. But hopefully with loads of ladies going natural and accepting their hair, the mindset should change. It's going to take a while though.

Anyhoo...I just wanted to say I think DesiRae is a 4b. And the only reason some people don't agree is because there are so many subcategories within the 4b category and 4b haor can act different depending on what you give it e.g moisture. Sometimes my hair shocks me.

Here are some pics of my 4b hair:

1st one: Freshly washed airdried in twists to stretch.
2nd one: Just done wash and deep conditioning. No products
3rd one: Yep! That's gel on the edge. Twist out from really tiny twists put in a puff.


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## Crackers Phinn (Sep 27, 2009)

A hun'ned plus entries and some naturals are even leaving the thread more confused than when they came in.  

If even the most basic questions about natural hair (before you actually even get into caring for it) are so hard to asnwer, how then do folks expect people to leave a comfort zone (relaxing) and jump head first (pun intended) into all this confusion?

Just an observation.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I always claimed 4a/b because my hair without product looked 4b to me with a couple of 4a coils randomly distributed through my head.






However once some product hit my head, it waved up and made other folks confused.  Even with waves, there's no pattern because the 4b is in there making this face


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## Essensual (Sep 27, 2009)

hair_rehab said:


> When I first BCed, I thought that I was a 4b. But 7 months later I'm sure that it's 4 a/b. The curls in the front and at the nape are looser and they become tighter and tangle a little more in the crown and on the sides.


 
Ditto


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## princessnad (Sep 27, 2009)

BlackMasterPiece said:


> lol okaaayyyy.....not sure why you asked me in the first place then but okay lol
> 
> I think naturallycurly's hair type definitions are pretty straightforward and easy to understand.
> 
> I you're determined to call yourself a 4b then hey, *shrugs* I don't understand why people get so defensive about a hair identification system but hey it is what it islol


But even on that website, the pic they have as an example of 4b has coils in it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 sooo... not that simple.


To the question about why people claim 4b when they are not.  I honestly think that people are trying to avoid people giving them the side eye and calling them "uppity" for claiming "better" hair than they have.  So when in doubt, claim the higher number.  Sad but I think it's true.


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## Rain20 (Sep 27, 2009)

Unhealthy hair of any type is unattractive. Now that there is so much info available about hair care for any hair type and tutorials for styling, maybe some these typing issues will become a thing of the past. 

But the knife cuts both ways. I've seen some 4bs post with some venom against type 3s. 

Subconsciously on hairboards, I think hair typing is turning into more than a tool to help decide what products might be best for your hair. Before I joined, I never really thought about hair types.


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## virtuenow (Sep 27, 2009)

Well, I dare someone to post a close up picture of this so called "zig-zag" sharp angle hair.  I question whether this texture actually exists.  I have never seen anyone post an example of this type- and I don't believe hair grows out of the head at sharp angles.  

Andre needs to reexamine this 4b category and throw the very tightly coiled people in there where they belong.  From my researched of the whole issue-  hair gets its shape from the hair follicle.  Under a scientific view, I cannot locate anywhere a report of a follicle that produces hair that throws out "z's".  

**Someone please post a close up picture of their "z" shaped hair (like Mwedzi's siggy picture; or Nonies closeups).  Then we can settle this for once and for all.


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## anon123 (Sep 27, 2009)

virtuenow said:


> Well, I dare someone to post a close up picture of this so called "zig-zag" sharp angle hair.  I question whether this texture actually exists.  I have never seen anyone post an example of this type- and I don't believe hair grows out of the head at sharp angles.
> 
> Andre needs to reexamine this 4b category and throw the very tightly coiled people in there where they belong.  From my researched of the whole issue-  hair gets its shape from the hair follicle.  Under a scientific view, I cannot locate anywhere a report of a follicle that produces hair that throws out "z's".
> 
> **Someone please post a close up picture of their "z" shaped hair (like Mwedzi's siggy picture; or Nonies closeups).  Then we can settle this for once and for all.



It may not grow out as a 'z', but through manipulation may end up like that.  This is a closeup of my hair after conditioning and rinsing a couple of times, gently finger detangling, and then allowing to shrink up:






The thing I marked 'z' may not be a perfect 'z', but it definitely looks like more of a 'z' than an 's' or an 'o', at least at that angle. 

As for curls, even though I think my hair clumps into curls, for the average day to day life of a 4b, that's just not what you see.  As Nonie said, we have to keep manipulating our hair to separate the strands or they will lock.  If they lock and tangle, they don't look like curls then either.  So the only time you really see them is if somebody does some mild shingling under just the right conditions and does an extreme closeup of the hair.  In everyday life, 4b hair looks like cotton.


----------



## Priss Pot (Sep 27, 2009)

OT: Mwedzi, your hair in your avi is so pretty.

ETA:  I don't think that 4b hair is uncommon.  Black women have a variety of textures, so neither of the 4b, 4a, 3c+ are uncommon, IMO.


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## that_1_grrrl (Sep 27, 2009)

See, that is where the confusion comes in for me. I used to think I was 4a because a have an "s" curl pattern. Then, I saw other people claiming "s" had a larger curl than I did. So, I started claiming 4b, but others kept saying their 4b hair never has a curl pattern.

So, I usually claim 4a/b because I really have no idea.



Kurlee said:


> i think that people misunderstand the 4b hair type.  As soon as they see really small curls, they say 4b.  It's pretty simple 4a = smallest range of curls whether fine, medium or coarse and 4b= zigzag, no curl "cnapp" type hair. To be very honest, I rarely see people with this hair type.  Almost everyone I see who claims 4b, is usually a much looser hair type and people kinda assume that coarse = 4b.


----------



## Nonie (Sep 27, 2009)

Mwedzi, that's the Z that people talk about?  Y'all are too much. One funnily bent curl that forms a sharp bent is what determines a hair type? So does this kid also have a Z on that little lock that hangs over her face? It looks pretty sharp to me:




And I'm pretty sure there are such Z's in this lady's hair too:




I bet you somewhere on this earth there is a phone coil with a sharp bent in it. 

If we will be such nitpickers and determine the texture of hair from one awkward bend on a few strands when the majority have curls , then we might as well admit that JustKiya is Type 1. I saw straight sections in her hair in a pic she posted recently, so there!

ETA: As Mwedzi said, the Z's come from manipulation, just like CNapp look comes from manipulation. Does manipulation determine the true nature of a texture? No. Straight hair can get wavy from manipulation but we won't start calling it Type 2 wavy coz missy wore a braid on wet hair and is now sporting waves. Her true texture is straight. She has waves from manipulation.


----------



## laurend (Sep 27, 2009)

msa said:


> Regarding the bold, because then when they post a thread about their "4b" hair it makes them feel good when everyone runs in, oohs and aaahs over their obvious curls, and tells them they're actually a type 3 and have good hair.


 

I don't totally agree with that statement.  I think a few might do this on purpose but there are a lot who really think that their hair is kinky coily.  I have been natural for a long time and I'm a lot older than most of the people on this board.  I've met a lot of AA women in my profession and  have been able to speak to them one on one about their hair over the years.  I've had AA women ask me about my hair and they state they need a relaxer because their hair is kinky coily but upon close up examination, is see their hair is in the 3 range.  We have been conditioned in this country to think that kinky coily is bad and to slap a relaxer on it even 3 ranged hair.  I have a client right now who says I need a relaxer but OMG her hair is probably 3a if that.  I told her "grow out your relaxer because your thyroid diease if thinning your hair" and her response " I can't my hair is too nappy for that".  Now, I'm trying to get her to stretch out her relaxers to doing it twice a year and really that's all she needs.


----------



## anon123 (Sep 27, 2009)

Nonie said:


> Mwedzi, that's the Z that people talk about?  Y'all are too much. One funnily bent curl that forms a sharp bent is what determines a hair type?
> I bet you somewhere on this earth there is a phone coil with a sharp bent in it.
> 
> ETA: As Mwedzi said, the Z's come from manipulation, just like CNapp look comes from manipulation. Does manipulation determine the true nature of a texture? No. Straight hair can get wavy from manipulation but we won't start calling it Type 2 wavy coz missy wore a braid on wet hair and is now sporting waves. Her true texture is straight. She has waves from manipulation.



I didn't say in that post that my hair type was 'z'.  I was just showing a 'z'.  And to be fair, there are probably as many z's in there as o's.    There are more 5's there than anything else.

The thing is, I will not see perfect coils without manipulation, either.  I need manipulation to get those, too.  If I don't manipulate, it will just tangle in a jumble and lock and mat up.  I have to do a version of shingling to get anything resembling a perfect coil.  So how do we decide that one form of manipulation is your true hair, but another form isn't?  My hair growing in perfect coils is more theoretical than real life.


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## Nonie (Sep 27, 2009)

princessnad said:


> *But even on that website, the pic they have as an example of 4b has coils in it *
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not just *that*, the definitions they give are my definition of 4B as I explained in this post. 

Who's claiming 4B that isn't? I am sorry I didn't read the whole thread so might've missed it but so far the only person I found who may not be 4B wasn't insisting she was 4B. It seemed she just didn't know and immediately accepted she might be a 3. So I dunno where these people y'all seeing who are insisting they are 4B when they aren't are.  I think it's that definition of "no definition" that throws people off. Or the assumption that 4B hair is frizzy so the minute a 3C/4A person has dry frizzy hair she assumes she's 4B. IMO 4A/B and 4B are so similar that it can be easy to mistake them. Likewise 4A and 4A/B are so similar that again the confusion can be there. So if a 4A/B person chooses to call herself 4A or 4B, I don't think it's that big of a deal. *shrug* 

As for claiming a lower spot so you can be lifted higher, interesting point. So if it is, then oh well. Humility is a noble thing. But isn't it ironic how not too long I understand "everyone" wanted to be type 3 and claimed it coz it was cool and now it seems "everyone" wants to be 4B? I don't know why there seems to be a wonder for the explosion of 4B's. It seems so obvious to me that if the majority of my little country had hair like me and the majority of natural Africans and blacks I met in the UK had hair like mine, that most likely the majority of us have 4B hair. I suppose it might be different in this mixing bowl but it's so not odd to me to see many of us.  Methinks people are just now being honest. Before they didn't want to be called nappy. Now on learning that being nappy doesn't mean having unkempt hair and seeing that nappy hair does grow long, they are happy to stand up and be counted.


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## loved (Sep 27, 2009)

No. There are plenty of folks with the Evans' family (James, Florida, Michael, JJ) hair type. I am one of them.


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## anon123 (Sep 27, 2009)

Nonie said:


> Who's claiming 4B that isn't? I am sorry I didn't read the whole thread so might've missed it but so far the only person I found who may not be 4B wasn't insisting she was 4B. It seemed she just didn't know and immediately accepted she might be a 3. So I dunno where these people y'all seeing who are insisting they are 4B when they aren't are.  I think it's that definition of "no definition" that throws people off. Or the assumption that 4B hair is frizzy so the minute a 3C/4A person has dry frizzy hair she assumes she's 4B. IMO 4A/B and 4B are so similar that it can be easy to mistake them. Likewise 4A and 4A/B are so similar that again the confusion can be there. So if a 4A/B person chooses to call herself 4A or 4B, I don't think it's that big of a deal. *shrug*



I see very few people claiming something that is so far and away from what their type is/might be.  I don't see these people, either?  Typing is hard!  Mostly because the definitions out there don't make any sense.  Look at this thread!  Yeah, I've seen it, but very very rarely.


----------



## Nonie (Sep 27, 2009)

mwedzi said:


> I didn't say in that post that my hair type was 'z'.  I was just showing a 'z'.  And to be fair, there are probably as many z's in there as o's.    There are more 5's there than anything else.
> 
> The thing is, I will not see perfect coils without manipulation, either.  I need manipulation to get those, too.  If I don't manipulate, it will just tangle in a jumble and lock and mat up.  I have to do a version of shingling to get anything resembling a perfect coil.  So how do we decide that one form of manipulation is your true hair, but another form isn't?  My hair growing in perfect coils is more theoretical than real life.



The thing people don't seem to get it is tangling/locking/matting happens because coils exist. And the diameter of the strands and the size of the coils make it behave that way. If our hairs grew in rows like corn, you would be able to see the coils naturally. The reason you have to do a version of shingling to see the coils isn't because your hair wouldn't automatically go to that but because your manipulate your hair so much styling it that it takes a while for it to spring back to that. You use brushes, you use combs. I don't. I haven't used a comb since April when I pressed my hair and don't plan on doing it till next year when I undo my braids. So that's why when I wet my hair it turns into circles. I washed my braids the day before yesterday and while I normally wait for it to dry before redoing some braids, my HIH kicked in and I undid one that was still damp, the hair coiled into cute circles. Remember my hair is bare so that's as natural as it can get since I won't use milk and berries. 

Trust me, you do not need to do a version of shingling to get that look. You just need to condition your hair, comb it even with conditioner in it but only this time, then rinse so water runs through it and use fingers to keep strands separated and from fold down on themselves. So you may need to tilt your head or use your fingers to hold the hair in a way that it won't curl back down till it dries. Then leave your hair alone (*Of course do this on a small section* coz it'd be quite a feat to do the experiment on a whole head). Do that another day on the same section that you left well alone and again fingers only separate strands and let it dry. You may say using fingers is manipulating but the alternative is to let it just fold back on itself in the coils that form naturally and then cut off the lump and let's examine it. I bet my bottom dollar your hair will come to rest in its most natural form. I dare say that the people who have never seen coils in their hair are people who brush or comb their hair a lot and always have it in some do that keeps the hair stretched.


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## knt1229 (Sep 27, 2009)

I went over to naturally curly http://www.naturallycurly.com/hair-types and read the definition of 4b hair. Here are some direct quotes from the addendum located at the bottom of the page:

_*4b hair has a tighter wave pattern and kinks of various size.*_ *This texture does not exhibit the shine or silkiness of looser type curls, but instead has sheen, and a soft, almost cotton-like feel*

And this quote pulled from the primary description:

*Type 4 hair appears to be coarse, but it is actually quite fine, with lots and lots of this strands densely packed together. Healthy Type 4 hair won't shine, but it will have sheen. It will be soft to the touch *

_*Type 4B, which has a "Z" pattern, less of a defined curl pattern (instead of curling or coiling, the hair bends in sharp angles like the letter "Z").*_

Everyone is hungup on the "Z" pattern part of the description when the most important part of the definition is the less defined curl pattern part which means there is definition but it is not as prominent as the other hair types. 4b hair doesn't form a full "S" but instead flattens and looks more like a "Z" or a number 5 and shows up in the hair as waves. _The "Z" pattern looks like the pattern of a braid out only not as defined. It's the krinkly roots that 4b's have. _

For the most part the 4b definiton resembles what many of the 4b ladies, myself included, have said about our hair. The definition even addresses the small coils that many of the 4b ladies have in their photos.

It is not rare hair or uncommon. But if you take the description literally and expect to see the letter "Z" hanging from someone's head then you would think it's uncommon.


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## AfroKink (Sep 27, 2009)

I have a slightly different take on the OP's question than what was presented here. I've been known to say that type 4b is the rarest hair type around. I think type 4a/b is the most common hair type among people of African descent. "Pure" 4a and 4b are probably equally prevelant. But when I think about hair types I think outside of the African population. I am yet to see a non-afroid person with 4b hair. Of those presented to me, they closest non-afriod people get is 4a. What I'm saying is that type 4a and the lower numbers are more common world wide when you add in other races or ethnicities. 

Worldwide, I beleive 4b is the rarest and somewhere in the 2b-3a family is probably most common.


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## Neith (Sep 27, 2009)

MissAlyssa said:


> I have a slightly different take on the OP's question than what was presented here. I've been known to say that type 4b is the rarest hair type around. I think type 4a/b is the most common hair type among people of African descent. "Pure" 4a and 4b are probably equally prevelant. But when I think about hair types I think outside of the African population. I am yet to see a non-afroid person with 4b hair. Of those presented to me, they closest non-afriod people get is 4a. What I'm saying is that type 4a and the lower numbers are more common world wide when you add in other races or ethnicities.
> 
> Worldwide, I beleive 4b is the rarest and somewhere in the 2b-3a family is probably most common.



That's an interesting conclusion.  Do you have any sources, or is this your educated guess?


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## AfroKink (Sep 27, 2009)

Neith said:


> That's an interesting conclusion. Do you have any sources, or is this your educated guess?


 
It's a very NONeducated guess


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## laurend (Sep 27, 2009)

MissAlyssa said:


> I have a slightly different take on the OP's question than what was presented here. I've been known to say that type 4b is the rarest hair type around. I think type 4a/b is the most common hair type among people of African descent. "Pure" 4a and 4b are probably equally prevelant. But when I think about hair types I think outside of the African population. I am yet to see a non-afroid person with 4b hair. Of those presented to me, they closest non-afriod people get is 4a. What I'm saying is that type 4a and the lower numbers are more common world wide when you add in other races or ethnicities.
> 
> Worldwide, I beleive 4b is the rarest and somewhere in the 2b-3a family is probably most common.


 

You are right, you probably find the most(4b) in South Africa and the most(2b) populous people are from China and India.


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## anon123 (Sep 27, 2009)

Nonie said:


> *The thing people don't seem to get it is tangling/locking/matting happens because coils exist.
> *
> Trust me, you do not need to do a version of shingling to get that look. You just need to condition your hair, comb it even with conditioner in it but only this time, then rinse so water runs through it and use fingers to keep strands separated and from fold down on themselves. So you may need to tilt your head or use your fingers to hold the hair in a way that it won't curl back down till it dries. Then leave your hair alone (*Of course do this on a small section* coz it'd be quite a feat to do the experiment on a whole head). Do that another day on the same section that you left well alone and again fingers only separate strands and let it dry. You may say using fingers is manipulating but the alternative is to let it just fold back on itself in the coils that form naturally and then cut off the lump and let's examine it. I bet my bottom dollar your hair will come to rest in its most natural form. I dare say that the people who have never seen coils in their hair are people who brush or comb their hair a lot and always have it in some do that keeps the hair stretched.



As to the first bolded, it is very possible for strands to be kinky-coily and tangle up but for the strands to not clump into bigger coils/curls.  I see it all the time. 

The experiment you suggest is exactly what I did on my bangs for nearly a week.  If I don't use fingers, the clumping is considerably less.  The strands themselves are still coily and curled and bent, but they get together with each other less if I just let them do what they want to do.  So my hair does come to rest in its most natural state.  But my hair's most natural state is not for all the strands to clump with each other.  There is some clumping, but there's also lots of strands that don't get with the program.  This is true for most curly hair, which is why people shingle as opposed to just rinsing and letting it curl up as it will.

Think about it.  Strands don't grow out of follicles in unison.  So imagine one follicle that put out a strand on one day and one right next to it that put out one a month later.  What is the likelihood that the follicle is situated in just the right way and it put it out at exactly the right time that the bends of the coils line up perfectly to clump?  It happens, but no guarantee that it will.  These coils will not naturally clump together.  Add to that coils can vary in size by a millimeter and those won't naturally clump together either because they aren't the same size.  When you shingle or pull on the strands, you stretch some out so that they can better fit with one next to them.

I think it's also true that because the coil diameter is so small, only a few hairs can get into it anyway,  if 2 or 3 don't match the ones next to it, that will mess up the clumping of that whole particular curl.  For a bigger diameter of clumped curl, 2 or 3 slightly different strands won't matter much.


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## carib_n_curly (Sep 27, 2009)

*i see 4a/b every day and some 4b. i'd say it's pretty common i usually see 4a/b though.
most people have a mix of textures*


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## Nonie (Sep 27, 2009)

mwedzi said:


> As to the first bolded, it is very possible for strands to be kinky-coily and tangle up but for the strands to not clump into bigger coils/curls.  I see it all the time.



Precisely what I'm saying! It's because 4B is kinky hair (= tightly coiled/curled hair) that it tangles up and knots ups. 4B hair isn't known for clumping the way 4A does as Neith highlighted many moons ago coz the coils are too small to cup each other easily, but it tangles and locks up easily. It's because it has kinks also known as tight coils also known as tight curls that this happens.

ETA: This hair isn't clumping but because of the tiny curls/kinks/naps it can lock and tangle very easily if one isn't careful: 






Because it isn't clumping doesn't negate the fact that it is a bunch of coils/curls. Clumping happens more easily the bigger the coil, hence the reason 3's hair clumps more easily than 4A and 4A more easily than 4B.


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## shamarie (Sep 27, 2009)

Does anybody here have a "Z" pattern that I can see. I always heard of it but I never seen it. Does that mean you have a wave pattern vs the curl pattern. TIA


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## AfroKink (Sep 27, 2009)

I offer my head up for public scrutinization. I consider my hair to be type 4b. My strands are definitely coiled. On rare occasions a bunch of strands clump together to form a defined coil. My hair actually loves to clump together, but not in a uniform way. No product or technique I've used in my 6 years of naturalness has ever made defined curls/coils on more than 0.25% of my head. If you hair can acheive coil/curl definition through product usage... you might not be a 4b.

This is a wash-n-fro from a while back. I think it was day 2 or 3 of my wash-n-fro. Note the clumps. Please do not confuse them with curls or coils. Curls/coils begin right from the root and are composed of the hair strands closest to each other. This clumps on my head are the last 1-2 inchs of hair at the ends of the strands and are composed of hair form any part of my head that can reach the clump. You'd actually find that the hairs from two adjacent clump families actually cross closer to the root and you can't actualy seperate out a clump from root to tip.







My hair forms ripples, not waves. I don't have 'deep waves' that people oooh and ahhh over. My ripples are just the stretched out coil. The word "slick" is not in my hair vocabulary. If you have waves that reflect light and blind people in the eye... you might not be a 4b

I don't have many puff pictures because I dont really do puffs. Here are some cornorow shots. If you squint your eyes and tilt your head slightly to the left you can see micro ripples. 





This is a shot of my damp hair right after henna. After henna most women talk about how defined their coils/curls have become. so fresh henna + damp hair (should)= poping coils! ... but not for me. 






Now I'm of the school of that that says 4a 4a/b and 4b are separated by coil size. 4b is smaller than a pen spring. If a single strand alone forms a curl that is larger than a pen spring... you may not be a 4b

I JUST took this pic for you guys because I was detangling my hair as reading this thread. It's the best I can do without borrowing Nonie's camera lol. The average size of my coils are the one closest to the pen spring. But as you can see I do have even smaller coils. 






I hope this helps somebody.
Lys


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## Nonie (Sep 27, 2009)

:notworthy Miss Alyssa, thank you! Your hair is the epitome of 4B. (I think I claimed you as a twin in a thread where folks were posting their hair and I'ma claim you again.) 

Thanks so much for posting and especially for your pics.


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## Nonie (Sep 27, 2009)

mwedzi said:


> As to the first bolded, it is very possible for strands to be kinky-coily and tangle up but for the strands to not clump into bigger coils/curls.  I see it all the time.
> 
> *The experiment you suggest is exactly what I did on my bangs for nearly a week.  If I don't use fingers, the clumping is considerably less.  The strands themselves are still coily and curled and bent, but they get together with each other less if I just let them do what they want to do.  So my hair does come to rest in its most natural state.  But my hair's most natural state is not for all the strands to clump with each other.  There is some clumping, but there's also lots of strands that don't get with the program.  This is true for most curly hair, which is why people shingle as opposed to just rinsing and letting it curl up as it will.*
> 
> ...



OK, now I see where we were losing each other. You were not saying that your hair doesn't form coils naturally but that it doesn't clump naturally. I agree with that. And yes, to form clumping on many 4B strands you would have to stretch the hair to open up the coil when the hairs are close together and then let them go _ping_ so they cup each other as they contract back to rest. And sometimes that will happen on its own as MissAlyssa attests, and I can believe her observation because she's been brave enough to do a WNG on all her hair and just let it do its thang. :notworthy

And again it is the size of the coil that makes this difficult. All other hair types have hair at different stages of growth but they still clump. Coil size makes it easy. It's not even that the coils are not the same size. My hair appears to have the same size coils all through. It's size. 

To test this theory take pen springs and put them beside each other and then press them into each other. It'll take some effort to get them to blend. Take a coil the size of a slinky that isn't closed as a slinky but is shaped like a spring and put then next to each other or even drop one on the other. Chances are it won't bounce off as many times as pen springs would. It will fall into the other to form a united coil.


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## anon123 (Sep 27, 2009)

MissAlyssa said:


> Now I'm of the school of that that says 4a 4a/b and 4b are separated by coil size. 4b is smaller than a pen spring.* If a single strand alone forms a curl that is larger than a pen spring... you may not be a 4b*
> 
> I JUST took this pic for you guys because I was detangling my hair as reading this thread. It's the best I can do without borrowing Nonie's camera lol. The average size of my coils are the one closest to the pen spring. But as you can see I do have even smaller coils.
> 
> ...



I think I agree with that.  Pen spring to pencil = 4a.  Smaller than pen spring = 4b.  Since 4b is the end of the Andre scale, I guess your curl can get smaller into infinity and still be 4b. 

Your coils are so tiny.  They are about the tiniest I've seen.  Tinier than mine or Nonie's, generally.  Coils this size or a definite minority on my head, but you seem to have a lot of them.  I think this what makes your hair so fragile.  You can't not manipulate it because otherwise it will lock up.  But when you manipulate it, it breaks.  Your little broken hairs remind me of my detangling session yesterday. 

Nonie, I've done wash and gos over my whole head, too.  Haven't you seen? http://public.fotki.com/mwedzi/texture/ 
http://public.fotki.com/mwedzi/2009-january-june/may09washandgo.html
I don't know if Alyssa will agree, but it's not a good move for me.  My hair gets so tangled.


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## tkj25 (Sep 27, 2009)

virtuenow said:


> Well, I dare someone to post a close up picture of this so called "zig-zag" sharp angle hair. * I question whether this texture actually exists.  I have never seen anyone post an example of this type- and I don't believe hair grows out of the head at sharp angles.*
> 
> *Andre needs to reexamine this 4b category and throw the very tightly coiled people in there where they belong.  From my researched of the whole issue-  hair gets its shape from the hair follicle.  Under a scientific view, I cannot locate anywhere a report of a follicle that produces hair that throws out "z's".  *
> 
> ***Someone please post a close up picture of their "z" shaped hair (like Mwedzi's siggy picture; or Nonies closeups).  Then we can settle this for once and for all.*



*Andre:* "There are two subtypes of Type 4 hair: Type 4A, tightly coiled hair that, when stretched, has an "S" pattern, much like curly hair; and *Type 4B, which has a "Z" pattern, less of a defined curl pattern (instead of curling or coiling, the hair bends in sharp angles like the letter "Z"*)."

lol, i can't take the madness anymore  *i don't think 4b hair exists. *(for me 4 a & b are the same. what _a lot_ are calling 4a, is really 3-type hair ... but i digress) i've given it a chance after all these years, lol, to see someone with this z-shaped pattern ... and after over 10 years of looking, i've yet to see it. *all 4-type hair has some type of coil. **therefore if 4b hair = z-shaped, sharp-angled hair, & no one has z-shaped, sharp-angled hair, then by definition 4b hair dne (does not exist)* .... with that said, to me the "z-shape" is just describing a _small coil_ from its side view -- stretched-out & tiny. all curly hair -- when stretched or elongated -- forms s's, z's, 5's, o's and the like -- it's the nature of curly hair. but the diameter of the curl determines whether you see these shapes easliy "type 3", or not "type 4". if you look at an individual strand of "4b" hair it is still usually a tiny coil, or shrinks up into an "o".

i bought andre's book when it came out. read it, & from his descriptions determined that i had type 4a hair. because even though my hair is nappy, undefined, afro-texture, i could see it was composed of a bunch of tiny curls/coils. [for clarity's sake, i gradually switched to 4 a/b because -- especially on hairboards -- i saw more & more people with my hair type describing it as 4b.]

i took andre's word -- & accepted that because he was a hair professional -- that he'd had contact with this so called "4b" hair -- i've yet to see it. 

every c-napp, 4b picture someone's posted, i see a density of curls: small, tiny, frizzy, nappy, condensed, _usually dry_, shrunken curls -- but curls none the less.  

just because your hair doesn't form loopy ringlets, doesn't mean you don't have a curl pattern.  an afro is made up of tiny, separated curls. you have to get up close to see the curls, but they are still there all packed together. the reason shingling or other defining types of manipulation work is because nappy hair has coils. that is the nature of our hair -- you can't bring out what ain't there ... and your hair may not form perfect, coily, loopy ringlets but the curl pattern that is there will be more pronounced -- still a little frizzy & nappy, but still more defined.

i think we're also experiencing a paradigm shift -- because long, loose, afro-textured hair isn't the norm ... it's usually relaxed. so there's all this confusion with what our texture is and looks like longer, and in it's natural state. before, the _main_ examples of *long*, nappy, tightly-afro textured hair were locs. now, there are more & more examples of longer, loose nappy, natural hair -- and it is new, and exciting.

what i'm discovering as my hair grows longer is that with maintaining increased strand moisture levels & retaining length -- my afro hair will flop & fall like other curly heads of hair. that doesn't mean the texture or nature of my hair has changed -- it's still nappy -- but its looks/characteristics will change as it gets longer, heavier, & is kept more hydrated -- as my afro hair has grown longer, and as i've kept the strands more hydrated, the coil/curl pattern has elongated.

i'm almost through with andre's whole system  i see it's general form -- types 1-4 (even if somewhat hierarchical) -- being useful with products, but beyond that .. trying to break it down more than that is too much. (4a-z)  i think we can agree that within each type (especially 3-4) there's a spectrum.

regardless, you can learn & find products that will work for your hair from any hair type, if you're open to it. i know i have ... water, henna & olive oil come to mind ... still no matter where you get it from, you still have to try it on your hair to see if it works.


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## music-bnatural-smile (Sep 27, 2009)

I'm something who knows what... sometimes my edges are very 4b
sometimes my back is very 3c... 
who really knows


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## Nonie (Sep 27, 2009)

mwedzi said:


> Nonie, I've done wash and gos over my whole head, too.  Haven't you seen? http://public.fotki.com/mwedzi/texture/
> http://public.fotki.com/mwedzi/2009-january-june/may09washandgo.html
> I don't know if Alyssa will agree, but it's not a good move for me.  My hair gets so tangled.



My bad. I have so many images of your pretty dos in my head and because length is my all-time dream they are at the forefront so I completely forgot you had done a WNG on your whole head, you brave soul. I don't doubt your hair gets tangled; that's why I won't do it.  I think you're the best guinea pig in the world and I adore you for it. Is there anything you haven't done? And yet your hair is so long and strong and healthy with all the "experiments" you do while here I am baby my hair and....  I better stop that line of thought coz I'm starting to hate you. 

Tkj25, thank you for breaking it down. Now I finally get what Neith meant when she said 4B doesn't exist. She meant hair that grows in Z's.


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## Nonie (Sep 27, 2009)

laurend said:


> You are right, you probably find the most(4b) in South Africa and the most(2b) populous people are from China and India.



I thought most Asians had straight type 1 hair, no? 

Anyway here's a breakdown of last year's world population distribution. Don't know if it really tells us anything though coz it's not like there was roll call and everyone went back to where they hail from to be counted. 

There are about 6.7 billion people in the world (numbers below in millions):

AFRICA (967)
- Northern Africa (197)
- Western Africa (291)
- Easten Africa (301)
- Central Africa (122)
- Southern Africa (55)

USA and CANADA (577)

MEXICO and CENTRAL AMERICA (150)

CARIBBEAN (41)

SOUTH AMERICA (387)

ASIA (4,052)

EUROPE (736)

OCEANIA (35)


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## AfroKink (Sep 27, 2009)

Nonie said:


> OK, now I see where we were losing each other. You were not saying that your hair doesn't form coils naturally but that it doesn't clump naturally. I agree with that. And yes, to form clumping on many 4B strands you would have to stretch the hair to open up the coil when the hairs are close together and then let them go _ping_ so they cup each other as they contract back to rest. And sometimes that will happen on its own as MissAlyssa attests, and I can believe her observation because she's been brave enough to do a WNG on all her hair and just let it do its thang. :notworthy


That was my last wash-n-go. I wouldnt dare do that now. lol. 



mwedzi said:


> I think I agree with that. Pen spring to pencil = 4a. Smaller than pen spring = 4b. Since 4b is the end of the Andre scale, I guess your curl can get smaller into infinity and still be 4b.
> 
> Your coils are so tiny. They are about the tiniest I've seen. Tinier than mine or Nonie's, generally. Coils this size or a definite minority on my head, but you seem to have a lot of them. I think this what makes your hair so fragile. You can't not manipulate it because otherwise it will lock up. But when you manipulate it, it breaks. Your little broken hairs remind me of my detangling session yesterday.
> 
> ...


 
Yah. I'm still tyring to learn my hair. Yesterday I co-washed my twists and just let them air dry. I didn't touch them again until today. I had a tough detangle today. Normally I bantu my wet twists and that keeps my hair from tangling up too much. I need to go back to doing that. But my hair normally breaks off when I try to detangle it. It breaks even when I finger detangle. All I can do it try to minimize the amount of breakage.


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## almond eyes (Sep 27, 2009)

This is why the whole hair typing debate is vexing. I have 4b for my edges and some parts of my front hair, that part does not curl up or wave except in two side pieces in my front section which do have those loose curls next to these dime size coils. Now the majority of my hair is 4a which has larger pin sized coils. And the back of my hair has a loose curl which is 3c and I have pieces of the 3c within my 4a hair pattern which I can tell is different because those curls are bigger and looser and respond immediately to my gel while the front section of my hair that is 4b just stays like someone said "cotton candy or a springy sponge". 

Best,
Almond Eyes


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## laurend (Sep 27, 2009)

Nonie said:


> I thought most Asians had straight type 1 hair, no?
> 
> Anyway here's a breakdown of last year's world population distribution. Don't know if it really tells us anything though coz it's not like there was roll call and everyone went back to where they hail from to be counted.
> 
> ...


 
Wait a minute, I thought China and India have a least 1 billion people each in their countries.  The Chinese have the most people on earth and India is a close 2nd.

You are right a 1b hair with Asian people, I really don't know or care about hair typing, I just know they have straight hair.


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## laurend (Sep 27, 2009)

See now, I guess Asia 4,052 means 4 billion.


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## andromeda (Sep 27, 2009)

I don't think 4b hair is uncommon.  I define 4b hair as Nonie, Mwedzi and MSA have articulated it, not strictly according Andre's description.  In a similar thread that was active within the last 2 weeks or so, Xerxes (I think) had a very insightful post on why its perceived that 4bs are so uncommon.  

Anyways,  I say my hair is "4b/z?" bc


I don't recollect ever having coils/curls of any kind when I was younger, hence the "z"
thusfar, the coils growing out of my head are probably smaller then pen springs and very tightly coiled, hence "b"
I'm transitioning, so I'm hesitant to definitely type my hair since I have this bonelaxed 1a hair hanging on for dear life to my coils, hence "?"
My "educated guess" is based on the practical use of the term 4b that I've seen across the internet.  I would hope that no one is giving me the side eye, thinking that my "4b/z?" guess is a way of "fishing for compliments" or seeking validation to "move on up the hair ladder and finally get my piece of the pie".  Actually, "hope" would be a waste of energy.  I mean, really?  Then again, I haven't been on hair boards long enough to know if such an odd rationale is commonplace (I'm sure it happens, but I don't think it's the defacto explanation for questionable 4b typing).


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## Bulletproof (Sep 27, 2009)

Photo won't upload, no point in post without photo


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## Daughter (Sep 27, 2009)

I've got a bit confused reading this thread, but now realise there's more variation in the type 4 family than I thought. I think I'm 4a/b?


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## Hairsofab (Sep 27, 2009)

I haven't read this whole thread but I do see a lot of people claim 4b on here who are  not 4b by any stretch. To me if you can put on some gel and pull your hair back and see waves, you are not 4b in my 4bz/C-napp world. lol.


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## laurend (Sep 27, 2009)

I'm confused also. I think what I got from this thread, is that there are variations of 4b from kinky to super kinky.


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## Hairsofab (Sep 27, 2009)

MissAlyssa said:


> I offer my head up for public scrutinization. I consider my hair to be type 4b. My strands are definitely coiled. On rare occasions a bunch of strands clump together to form a defined coil. My hair actually loves to clump together, but not in a uniform way. No product or technique I've used in my 6 years of naturalness has ever made defined curls/coils on more than 0.25% of my head. If you hair can acheive coil/curl definition through product usage... you might not be a 4b.
> 
> This is a wash-n-fro from a while back. I think it was day 2 or 3 of my wash-n-fro. Note the clumps. Please do not confuse them with curls or coils. Curls/coils begin right from the root and are composed of the hair strands closest to each other. This clumps on my head are the last 1-2 inchs of hair at the ends of the strands and are composed of hair form any part of my head that can reach the clump. You'd actually find that the hairs from two adjacent clump families actually cross closer to the root and you can't actualy seperate out a clump from root to tip.
> 
> ...


 

This is definitely the texture of my hair. If I think about it I will post some pictures in this thread when I get home.


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## Celestial (Sep 27, 2009)

msa said:


> Everyone needs to recognize the 4b is a widely ranging category. I personally believe that 4b can have a coil, it's just super small (in diameter) and you can't make out it's definition unless you're up super close (like in Nonie's pics). Basically, if I can look at a fro and see coils (because they're clearly big enough for me to see without the zoom/macro function on the camera) then you're 4a (like my hair). If I can look at it and can't tell one coil from another, then you're 4b (like Nonie or Desi or Mwedzi).
> 
> My sister is a 4b whose hair is literally a cottony mass. No coils, no zig zags, but somehow it's just fluff. I don't even know how to describe it. *My ex-so is 4b but his hair literally grows out of his head straight, no zig zags, no coils, just straight. It looks like kinky straight weave hair. *Then there's people like Nonie and Desi who when you look up close they have coils, but if you were standing right next to them you wouldn't be able to see any definition of those coils if their hair dried unmanipulated with no product.
> 
> Clearly, there is a lot of variation, opinions, and misinformation. I think that's because people want to cling to the idea that 4b is this very specific thing (and is connected to a very specific hair struggle) when it really isn't.


 
I read some of these posts, and I believe the above in bold. My hair is something of that sort. I don't have a curl pattern and my hair shrinks greatly when washed but easily straighten out when combed. For an afro, it would be better for me to first curl it with rod/rollers because trying to pick a natural afro just give me a straight-kinky look. My hair is nappy when wet or washed but all I have to do is comb it out and twist it and people wouldn't define it as nappy . If 4b is no curl pattern then my hair is 4b.


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## Nonie (Sep 27, 2009)

Bosinse said:


> I haven't read this whole thread but I do see a lot of people claim 4b on here who are  not 4b by any stretch. To me* if you can put on some gel and pull your hair back and see waves, you are not 4b in my 4bz/C-napp world*. lol.



I think more the more accurate statement would be "if you can see the waves from afar then you aren't...". As MissAlyssa said, if you got really close you could see micro waves aka ripples when hair is stretched. Which makes sense coz a stretched out coil makes a wave, and this would be more evident if you don't use a brush to fully flatten the strand. But from afar, the micro ripples are "invisible" and the hair just looks straight. 

To borrow MissAlyssa's line if you squint your eyes and tilt your head slightly to the left you can see micro ripples


----------



## jupitermoon (Sep 27, 2009)

*Nonie*, I like that puff.  I think it's neat how your hair appears like textured staightened hair when pulled back.  That must be another property of 4b hair.


----------



## Celestial (Sep 27, 2009)

What if your hair has great shrinkage when wet and it knots and coiled but once comb and twisted it loosens and there's no coils. That's exactly how my hair is. I don't have curls. I only have curls if I wet and wash my hair and if I don't comb it or brush the ends before twisting the ends then the ends would coil or nap. Does other 4b hair do that?


----------



## Nonie (Sep 27, 2009)

Celestial said:


> I read some of these posts, and I believe the above in bold. My hair is something of that sort. I don't have a curl pattern and my hair shrinks greatly when washed but easily straighten out when combed. For an afro, it would be better for me to first curl it with rod/rollers because trying to pick a natural afro just give me a straight-kinky look. My hair is nappy when wet or washed but all I have to do is comb it out and twist it and people wouldn't define it as nappy . If 4b is no curl pattern then my hair is 4b.



Do you have photos of your hair? Coz what you describe is how 4B hair behaves You say it shrinks when you wash it and when you comb it it sticks out straight. Are you combing it dry or wet. I ask this because 4B hair is famous for maintaining styles. If I comb my 4B hair, it will also get that straight-kinky look if I'm not wearing a wet product like my beloved S Curl. This puff doesn't appear to be made of circles like the one I posted before:





Here's another pic of my hair before I knew my hair had curls and all I knew was straight-kinky no pattern hair (excuse the bald spot):





As my hair practices have improved and I've learned more to improve its health (DCing, ACV, low mani) and gotten more familiar with it, my hair has come into its own and I have witnessed its many characteristics.


----------



## Nonie (Sep 27, 2009)

Celestial said:


> What if your hair has great shrinkage when wet and it knots and coiled but once comb and twisted it loosens and there's no coils. That's exactly how my hair is. I don't have curls. I only have curls if I wet and wash my hair and if I don't comb it or brush the ends before twisting the ends then the ends would coil or nap. Does other 4b hair do that?



A pic of what you're talking about would be helpful. Most people use twists to get a twist-out which looks like waves rather than curls. 4B hair has tiny curls and shrinks a lot and when you manipulate it, it takes a different shape depending on what manipulation you apply. This would be even more so if you manipulate it when wet and keep it in that new state till it dries. It'd not look the way it did when you washed it. 

I've got twists in my hair right now. I'll be back with pics of what it looks like out of a twist.


----------



## Celestial (Sep 27, 2009)

Nonie said:


> Do you have photos of your hair? Coz what you describe is how 4B hair behaves You say it shrinks when you wash it and when you comb it it sticks out straight. Are you combing it dry or wet. I ask this because 4B hair is famous for maintaining styles. If I comb my 4B hair, it will also get that straight-kinky look if I'm not wearing a wet product like my beloved S Curl. This puff doesn't appear to be made of circles like the one I posted before:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I don't have any photos but I'm thinking about snapping some and posting it. My hair look similar to yours in the first pic. Yours just look thicker and a have a tad bit more curl pattern than mines. My hair is a little looser than yours but it is very similar.


----------



## Nonie (Sep 27, 2009)

CelinaStarr said:


> *Nonie*, I like that puff.  I think it's neat how your hair appears like textured staightened hair when pulled back.  *That must be another property of 4b hair*.



It is. MizzBrit (I think it was she) started a thread wondering about that feature in her hair. This is why I couldn't get with my neighbor's hair when I was a kid coz her hair didn't do what mind did. It'd spring back into curls when I wanted it to lie flat like mine.  This is why threading as we did back home (wrapping the hair with thread so it stays stretched for days) gave hair that looked pressed. 4B hair is pretty obedient once you get to know it and stop trying to make it look like what it isn't and do stuff that isn't for it.


----------



## Celestial (Sep 27, 2009)

Nonie said:


> A pic of what you're talking about would be helpful. Most people use twists to get a twist-out which looks like waves rather than curls. 4B hair has tiny curls and shrinks a lot and when you manipulate it, it takes a different shape depending on what manipulation you apply. This would be even more so if you manipulate it when wet and keep it in that new state till it dries. It'd not look the way it did when you washed it.
> 
> I've got twists in my hair right now. I'll be back with pics of what it looks like out of a twist.


 
I comb my hair out when wet and twist when wet. That alone straightens the hair out. I'm going to snap some photos and take several pictures and post them (not now). What you describe about 4b hair taken on many shapes is true with mines. When I had a TWA (before 1"), I put gel on my hair and it did actually curled and people use to ask me what I put in my hair. However, when it grew out it stopped curling. My hair wouldn't curl if I put gel in it now at this length; it would just straighten.


----------



## Nonie (Sep 27, 2009)

Nonie said:


> A pic of what you're talking about would be helpful. Most people use twists to get a twist-out which looks like waves rather than curls. 4B hair has tiny curls and shrinks a lot and when you manipulate it, it takes a different shape depending on what manipulation you apply. This would be even more so if you manipulate it when wet and keep it in that new state till it dries. It'd not look the way it did when you washed it.
> 
> I've got twists in my hair right now. I'll be back with pics of what it looks like out of a twist.



As promised here are pics I just took with my phone. Sorry they aren't that clear but hope you can see the difference in texture (ETA I have no product in my hair in any of the pics. I think if I twisted with product--especially one that isn't wet or one that dries up--my hair would be straighter. Also it'd not curl back as fast without a shampoo to remove the coating so water can get to it. One more thing, I just finger combed. I'm sure if I ran a comb through it, it'd not spring back into coils. When I get my cam back, I'll take clearer pics of this experiment if anyone's interested):


----------



## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Sep 27, 2009)

This thread has me confused LOL.  Nonie, what is my hair type???

wash n go wet (texlaxed):





wash n go dry (texlaxed)





Wash n go natural:





wash n go natural:





Twistout:





Nonie, what say you???

The reason i ask is because a lot of the characteristics described here seem to describe my hair....sigh.....


----------



## Nonie (Sep 27, 2009)

Celestial said:


> I comb my hair out when wet and twist when wet. That alone straightens the hair out. I'm going to snap some photos and take several pictures and post them (not now). What you describe about 4b hair taken on many shapes is true with mines. When I had a TWA (before 1"), I put gel on my hair and it did actually curled and people use to ask me what I put in my hair. However, when it grew out it stopped curling. My hair wouldn't curl if I put gel in it now at this length; it would just straighten.



I think also the size of the twists makes a difference. If you do big twists, you open up the 4B coils more because they have a longer stretch/distance before the bend. That stretches the coil and if you have many strands in a twists, no part of your hair is allowed to coil in it's normal pattern so it gets pulled straight. If you remind me on Friday when I have nowhere to go and hopefully a new SD card for my camera, I will demonstrate this difference in how your hair behaves depending on size of twist.


----------



## Nonie (Sep 27, 2009)

Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> This thread has me confused LOL.  Nonie, what is my hair type???
> 
> wash n go wet (texlaxed):
> 
> ...



I know nothing about texlaxed hair but your natural pic could be 4a/b. The roots look 4B-ish but you have clumping that look like 4A but then what looks like waves (from gel maybe or smoothing your hair?) looks bigger than 4B so maybe you're 4a/b. 

But honestly it's really hard to say from just those few pics. As you can see, when people see the coils in my profile they cannot imagine my hair is this non-shiny rough-looking hair. They imagine glossy type 3 coils which it isn't. It takes seeing many pics of my hair in different states to get a full picture of what it's really like. 

JNSQ, I say it's not that serious. Just pick someone whose hair you think behaves like yours the most and let that be your type; or do like a lot of people and just state you have textured hair *shrug*. As Tkj25 said, you can get product recs from any hair type even relaxed heads and find it works for your natural hair no matter the type so really getting your head in a jam over typing is really unnecessary.


----------



## anon123 (Sep 27, 2009)

Bre, I say you are 4a.  Nonie, I have had the pleasure of seeing JNSQ's hair in person. She has lovely coils that get very defined and visible from a distance, about pen spring size.  Of course she was covering her roots a bit, but that's my guess from seeing the hair poking out in her wash and go puff.


----------



## Celestial (Sep 27, 2009)

Nonie said:


> *I think also the size of the twists makes a difference.* *If you do big twists*, you open up the 4B coils more because they have a longer stretch/distance before the bend. That stretches the coil and if you have many strands in a twists, no part of your hair is allowed to coil in it's normal pattern so it gets pulled straight. If you remind me on Friday when I have nowhere to go and hopefully a new SD card for my camera, I will demonstrate this difference in how your hair behaves depending on size of twist.


 
You know what you are talking about because I put big plait twist in my hair. It usual depends on how I feel and I have to wash my hair twice a week to keep it moisturize. I'm going to snap some photos of my hair this week just for demonstration and for you to see how my hair looks. I'll do my best to take photos of my hair and not my fingers or bathroom walls .


----------



## MizzBrit (Sep 27, 2009)

interesting thread
so glad i joined LHCF..im learning so much about 4b hair
if this isnt 4b hair.please correct me
i read thru the thread where someone said if you get waves with product you are not 4berplexed(see pic 3)


1st pic-just took out my extension braids
2nd pic-puff
3rd-puff with eco gel
4th-back of puff without product
5th-freshly washed damp hair taken out of plaits


----------



## CherieMarie (Sep 27, 2009)

Im definately a 4b with coarse strands....and wouldn't have it any other way


----------



## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Sep 27, 2009)

mwedzi said:


> Bre, I say you are 4a. Nonie, I have had the pleasure of seeing JNSQ's hair in person. She has lovely coils that get very defined and visible from a distance, about pen spring size. Of course she was covering her roots a bit, but that's my guess from seeing the hair poking out in her wash and go puff.


 
Thanks mwedzi.  I think I need to just go with 4a and stick with that.  It's just that the descriptions explained in this thread lead me somewhat to think other wise.


----------



## yardgirl (Sep 27, 2009)

In Jamaica if you have 3c/4a or any type 3 hair, you supposedly have "pretty" hair. 4B is "kaya"


----------



## Nonie (Sep 27, 2009)

MizzBrit said:


> interesting thread
> so glad i joined LHCF..im learning so much about 4b hair
> if this isnt 4b hair.please correct me
> i read thru the thread where someone said if you get waves with product you are not 4berplexed(see pic 3)
> ...



I think you're 4B. If someone were to say your ripples look bigger than 4B then I'd say 4A/B but I've seen more of your pics and your hair looks very much like 4B. 

As Tkj25 said, the reason any hair can be shingled it's because of the coils/curls. Stretching them opens them, and if you can have clumping from several strands bending at the exact spots along their length, then I believe you can have visible waves too, coz what happens when those clumping strands open up together? What's more, as Mwedzi mentioned, she achieves more clumping when she does a version of shingling and applying a gel and smoothing the hair back to me could also be a way of shingling so you line up strands just so to create the effect the same effect that leads to clumping only coz the hair is stretched it forms waves.

With type 4A hair, the waves would be wide and would be forming long hills and valleys due to more clumping and more synchrony in the bends, I think. I wish you had a WNG pic. It takes so many different styles to show what your hair really looks like. *sigh*

I haven't ever gelled down my hair to see what happens. I imagine it'd be the same thing as would happen if I shingled ie an appearance of waves but my effort to get my hair shingled earned me a 5+ inch BC  so I am yet to toy with shingling.

ETA: I just realized that your hair looks a lot like JC's (Cracker's Phinn)...so claim whatever she is.


----------



## yardgirl (Sep 27, 2009)

MizzBrit said:


> interesting thread
> so glad i joined LHCF..im learning so much about 4b hair
> if this isnt 4b hair.please correct me
> i read thru the thread where someone said if you get waves with product you are not 4berplexed(see pic 3)
> ...




Hey little lady  You look like a 4a to me. You always did


----------



## locabouthair (Sep 27, 2009)

yardgirl said:


> Hey little lady  You look like a 4a to me. You always did



I thought she was 4a also.


----------



## Nonie (Sep 27, 2009)

yardgirl said:


> Hey little lady  You look like a 4a to me. You always did





locabouthair said:


> I thought she was 4a also.



You guys might be right, but I was looking at her album and I don't see the clumping I associate with 4A or the big coils I expect to see in combed out 4A puff. Maybe it's because she braids it before combing it out into a puff? Her siggy does look like a 4A puff, plus the pic she provided of wet hair that was braided so maybe that's why the clumping doesn't show...*shrug* Of maybe it's the pic quality? 

I think a WNG will make it all clear. That clumping is the biggest giveaway of 4A. Her hair looks like the example Cracker's Phinn posted. 4A hair does behave like 4B when it's manipulated. Better yet, MizzB, show up at a meet-up so someone can tell us the real life appearance like Mwedzi did of JNSQ. 

ETA: If you look at her puff in her Sew In/Take down album (esp the third photo), it reminds me a lot of my puff in this pic.


----------



## SND411 (Sep 27, 2009)

Why is the 4 category so meticulous?


----------



## glamazon386 (Sep 27, 2009)

4B hair is common IMO. But I think ladies with that hair type are more likely to be relaxed.


----------



## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Sep 27, 2009)

I think i've narrowed it down to 3c/nape, 4a/sides & crown, 4b/front/edges/kitchen.

I.hate.hair.right.now.


----------



## Neith (Sep 28, 2009)

Y'all are trying to confuse me   I decided to take a pic of my hair with no products.  Right after my DC.

Since we're on the subject...

Most of my coils are smaller than a penspring.  My hair is very coarse, very wiry - does not feel soft.  It waves and coils when wet.  It clumps, but not into smooth ringlets... it's more like velcro.   At the nape, the hair is less coarse, but has the same curl pattern.

My hair can be coaxed into smoother coils, or I can dry comb my hair out into a fluffy fro.  but as soon as water hits it, it shrivels up.

Hair with no products, damp.






​

What is it?  4a, 4a/4b or 4b?  I really think it behaves like both textures a bit.  but it's also uniform - I don't see any sections that don't look like the next section  Whatcha think guys?  I'm curious to what you would say Nonie.


----------



## Nonie (Sep 28, 2009)

Neith, I'd say you're hands down 4A. 

ETA Besides the obvious clumping throughout your head, if you look at your tenth photo in the natural hair album, your hair forms the uniform waves I was talking about that form long hills and valleys...ie a continuous waves created by adjacent strands that bend in very visibly evenly matched points.

I would love to see your hair combed out into an afro. (I have a friend who hates that look that she'd not do it even if I paid her ) coz methinks your hair would look like my phony afro puff:


----------



## Southernbella. (Sep 28, 2009)

Bosinse said:


> I haven't read this whole thread but I do see a lot of people claim 4b on here who are  not 4b by any stretch. To me if you can put on some gel and pull your hair back and see waves, you are not 4b in my 4bz/C-napp world. lol.



I'm mostly 4A (I think), but I can't see waves when I pull my hair back.


----------



## Neith (Sep 28, 2009)

Nonie said:


> Neith, I'd say you're hands down 4A.



Ok 

See... now that makes me think that the difference between 4a and 4b isn't based on coil diameter.  :scratchch 

What is it?  lol


----------



## MizzBrit (Sep 28, 2009)

me? a 4a? hmm who would of thought
i will take a pic of a WNG to help furthur determine..
you mean to tell me i keep my hair stretched so much im loosing all my lil curlies..sigh.


----------



## msa (Sep 28, 2009)

I can't take it anymore.

Henceforward, I'm not saying anyone is a 4a or 4b. I'm just going to say type 4 and leave it at that.


----------



## Nonie (Sep 28, 2009)

Neith said:


> Ok
> 
> See... now that makes me think that the difference between 4a and 4b isn't based on coil diameter.  :scratchch
> 
> What is it?  lol



I'm afraid I insist it is. Look at these puffs:


----------



## Nonie (Sep 28, 2009)

Here's another comparison that shows you why I was saying MizzBrit was 4B (from her album pics) or at least 4A/B coz this is what I think 4A afros look like:


----------



## Nonie (Sep 28, 2009)

msa said:


> I can't take it anymore.
> 
> Henceforward, *I'm not saying anyone is a 4a or 4b. I'm just going to say type 4 and leave it at that*.



I think that's a good idea.


----------



## Nonie (Sep 28, 2009)

One last comparison and then I shall shut up, using real life examples and not a phony puff this time.


----------



## Neith (Sep 28, 2009)

Nonie said:


> One last comparison and then I shall shut up, using real life examples and not a phony puff this time.



but see... this is what I'm talking about.

From the same two heads of hair...











The one on the left is MissAlyssa's.  

The one on the right is mine (they stick to my blanket  The two clumps on the left I tried to stretch out a little bit to make a coil, but they frizzed and exploded).  

Both are coils smaller than a penspring.  

They are definitely around the same diameter.

Why is one 4b and one 4a?

Not saying that there is no difference.  but why?


----------



## Daughter (Sep 28, 2009)

MizzBrit said:


> interesting thread
> so glad i joined LHCF..im learning so much about 4b hair
> if this isnt 4b hair.please correct me
> i read thru the thread where someone said if you get waves with product you are not 4berplexed(see pic 3)
> ...



I might just have found my hair twin!!!


----------



## Anew (Sep 28, 2009)

This hair typing is worse than calculus, yikes..


----------



## tkj25 (Sep 28, 2009)

msa said:


> I can't take it anymore.
> 
> Henceforward, I'm not saying anyone is a 4a or 4b. I'm just going to say type 4 and leave it at that.





Nonie said:


> I think that's a good idea.



i couldn't agree more



Neith said:


> but see... this is what I'm talking about.
> 
> From the same two heads of hair...
> 
> ...



that's it!  i'm done. 4a & 4b are the same. we are describing characteristics of the same hair type/coil pattern. 

curl hydration, curl diameter, curl style are some of the things that i think are making people think these are 2 separate textures ... among others ... can't we just agree to a type 4 and move on.


----------



## AfroKink (Sep 28, 2009)

Nonie said:


> One last comparison and then I shall shut up, using real life examples and not a phony puff this time.


I would add that on the right the coils/clumps/tubes appear to go deeper, like they start close to the root and extend through the ends. On the left the coils/clumps/tubes begin closer to the ends of the hair. 




Neith said:


> but see... this is what I'm talking about.
> 
> From the same two heads of hair...
> 
> ...


 It looks like the hair to the left is the same size as the penspring, if not a little bigger. But if you say your strands are smaller then the penspring I'll believe you because you've actually seen it in person. 

Maybe the differences have to do with the number of hairs on our heads that are the different sizes? Maybe more of mine are the tiny coils that are on too the far right in my picture, and more of your coils are the larger ones to the left on your picture?

And then I know you said your hair is coarse. Mine is fine. I wonder if that effects it too. 

Looking at your hair I would have said 4a/b. I don't think 4a/b has really been defined in this thread. I know it was said that 4b is small than a penspring and 4a is penspring to pencil size. But where is 4a/b?


----------



## Desarae (Sep 28, 2009)




----------



## sylver2 (Sep 28, 2009)

msa said:


> I can't take it anymore.
> 
> Henceforward, I'm not saying anyone is a 4a or 4b. I'm just going to say type 4 and leave it at that.



exactly..that's why a lot of threads i made looking for info requested type 4 with no 3's anywhere.
thats why i just always say im type 4a/b.


----------



## Nonie (Sep 28, 2009)

tkj25 said:


> that's it!  i'm done. 4a & 4b are the same. we are describing characteristics of the same hair type/coil pattern.
> 
> curl hydration, curl diameter, curl style are some of the things that i think are making people think these are 2 separate textures ... among others ... *can't we just agree to a type 4 and move on*.





sylver2 said:


> exactly..that's why a lot of threads i made looking for info requested type 4 with no 3's anywhere.
> thats why i just always say im type 4a/b.



I'm with you guys.  Besides, before coming to hair forums, all hair that could make an afro was the same to me. I had never heard of WNGs or clumping. All hair like that where I come from was combed out into a Bernic Mac afro or pulled back into a puff pony that was also combed out. I didn't know it was called type 4, but it encompassed all hair from type 4A-4Z


----------



## mscocoface (Sep 28, 2009)

*So the new type is 4 PERIOD.  If someone wants to get techical 4 EVERYTHING PERIOD.

Works for me.*   I am a 4 EVERYTHING.


----------



## Daughter (Sep 28, 2009)

Nonie said:


> I'm with you guys.  Besides, before coming to hair forums, all hair that could make an afro was the same to me. I had never heard of WNGs or clumping. All hair like that where I come from was combed out into a Bernic Mac afro or pulled back into a puff pony that was also combed out. I didn't know it was called type 4, but it encompassed all hair from type 4A-4Z



Psst - what's a WNG?!

Yeah I'm with you. I'm down for just calling all the kinky stuff type 4, forget a/b/c!


----------



## anon123 (Sep 28, 2009)

Neith said:


> but see... this is what I'm talking about.
> 
> From the same two heads of hair...
> 
> ...



I just realized that we are even more screwed than we thought when I opened up two pens and found that . . . the pen springs were different sizes!   I quit!  In an alternate universe, the pen springs themselves are trying to classify each other into size categories.


----------



## Neith (Sep 28, 2009)

MissAlyssa said:


> I would add that on the right the coils/clumps/tubes appear to go deeper, like they start close to the root and extend through the ends. On the left the coils/clumps/tubes begin closer to the ends of the hair.
> 
> It looks like the hair to the left is the same size as the penspring, if not a little bigger. But if you say your strands are smaller then the penspring I'll believe you because you've actually seen it in person.
> 
> ...



The coils on the left I tried to pull apart to make a coil so that you could compare it to the spring that way, but when I tried to pull it, it turned into a frizzy mass.  The coils on the right are undisturbed.  All my coils are roughly the same size.

Yeah, my hair is really coarse.  I'm sure that does make a difference too.

I dunno.  I still don't think that there is a big difference curl diameter wise in our hair.  Gut feeling.  
 


mwedzi said:


> I just realized that we are even more screwed than we thought when I opened up two pens and found that . . . the pen springs were different sizes!   I quit!  In an alternate universe, the pen springs themselves are trying to classify each other into size categories.



Oh, no... I didn't even think of that! 

Man!

I'll take pics with the hair next to a ruler then 

I'm really curious about it now.  Is the difference between 4a and 4b really curl diameter.  If it's not that, then what? 

Do we just all clump differently, but have similar size coils?

hmmm...


----------



## ceecy29 (Sep 28, 2009)

Yeah 4 something sounds about right.


----------



## Nonie (Sep 28, 2009)

mwedzi said:


> I just realized that we are even more screwed than we thought when *I opened up two pens and found that . . . the pen springs were different sizes! *  I quit!  In an alternate universe, the pen springs themselves are trying to classify each other into size categories.



No you di'in't.  

Daughter WNG = wash n go (random vid showing an example)


----------



## DarkVictory (Sep 28, 2009)

msa said:


> Regarding the bold, because then when they post a thread about their "4b" hair it makes them feel good when everyone runs in, oohs and aaahs over their obvious curls, and tells them they're actually a type 3 and have good hair.





Skiggle said:


> IMO, I think most people
> feel that 4b and lower isn't an attractive hair type to
> claim...Most people would prefer coils/curls any day...
> over no coils, coarse hair...





Crackers Phinn said:


> A hun'ned plus entries and some naturals are even leaving the thread more confused than when they came in.



Okay, I've got it now: some disown coils/curls they do have fishing for compliments, some claim coils/curls they don't have hoping for a more desirable texture, and some of us can't make sense of it all but lurk on hair type threads hoping to get a clue. All clear!

Seriously, thanks to all for posting pictures and explanations. Very informative thread!


----------



## Priss Pot (Sep 28, 2009)

Anew said:


> This hair typing is worse than calculus, yikes..



It really shouldn't even be that hard, if you ask me.  If your hair has type 1,2,3,4 characteristics, then you will just be that type.  My hair has kinky coily curly characteristics, so I am a type 4.  Pow!!!  And there ya have it.  Simple and straight to the point.


----------



## cocoaluv (Sep 28, 2009)

MizzBrit said:


> me? a 4a? hmm who would of thought
> i will take a pic of a WNG to help furthur determine..
> you mean to tell me i keep my hair stretched so much im loosing all my lil curlies..sigh.


 

Your hair looks like how I remember mine to be when I was natural as a child and I always thought I was a 4A with some 4B thrown in but when I read that you said you were a 4B I got confused as heck.



msa said:


> I can't take it anymore.
> 
> Henceforward, I'm not saying anyone is a 4a or 4b. I'm just going to say type 4 and leave it at that.


 
Exactly. I know I'm a mix but the 4B pics and descriptions I am seeing here doesnt describe me at all so I'm going to stick with saying I have type 4 hair.


----------



## Neith (Sep 28, 2009)

Right now we're saying "It's all type 4 hair"

but I know like HECK...

*In a few days/weeks/months or whatever, there is going to be another thread like this. * 

I don't think it's wrong to just want to know.  People like to understand the things that they have an interest in.  We are going to be asking questions about it until it's actually explained.

Two categories for type 4 just isn't enough, now everyone is fine with just having one category?



It's funny how this type of "debate" ebbs and flows like the tides.


----------



## Priss Pot (Sep 28, 2009)

Neith said:


> Right now we're saying "It's all type 4 hair"
> 
> but I know like HECK...
> 
> ...



Because after so much debate, it's like fug it.  Just call it all type 4 cause people will never agree.  Hair typing does not deserve a dissertation.  People will have various opinions on it, so why not agree on the most common part.  That it IS type 4 hair.

I can understand the need for hair typing (in relation to what works for what type of hair), but other than that it's like race...a social construct developed by man.

Don't let it divide you.


----------



## Neith (Sep 28, 2009)

Priss Pot said:


> Because after so much debate, it's like fug it.  Just call it all type 4 cause people will never agree.  Hair typing does not deserve a dissertation.  People will have various opinions on it, so why not agree on the most common part.  That it IS type 4 hair.
> 
> I can understand the need for hair typing (in relation to what works for what type of hair), but other than that it's like race...a social construct developed by man.
> 
> Don't let it divide you.



I'm not letting it divide me.

If anything, people have been quick to tell me that my hair isn't 4b or quite like theirs.

I'm just saying.  I would like to understand it.

I understand the differences between 1a, 1b, 1c.  2a, 2b, 2c.  And 3a, 3b, 3c.  I understand why they are different on a physical level.

I don't think that sweeping it under the rug and acting like there are no differences is the answer.  Like I said before... undoubtedly, this issue will arise again. 

Lord knows I can also see WHY one would be tempted to do such a thing.  It's frustrating and we go all around in cirlcles. 
*
I think it's SAD that some people let hair typing come between them.
*
I don't look at it as some sort of hierarchy.  I don't have those types of issues.*

All I want to do is to be able to understand kinky hair types the way that I understand ALL the others.  ESPECIALLY since I have kinky hair myself.
*


----------



## Anew (Sep 28, 2009)

Priss Pot said:


> It really shouldn't even be that hard, if you ask me. If your hair has type 1,2,3,4 characteristics, then you will just be that type. My hair has kinky coily curly characteristics, *so I am a type 4. Pow!*!! And there ya have it. Simple and straight to the point.


 lol, pretty much


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## bablou00 (Sep 28, 2009)

This hair typing is so exhausting. I find it even more exhausting when people who clearly have type 3 hair or maybe 4a is trying to tell someone who clearly has 4b that they dont. If you say your 4b your 4b. Why does it matter if someone you dont even know tells you what you are. I will forever think my hair is 4b. It laughs at me when I try to use gel and water to lay it down. WnG's are more of a style not just something I can do with my hair. My hair looks nor feels anything like my sisters who is what people classify as 4a. My hair doesnt feel like hers or lays down like hers so therefore Im in another category. Thats my 2cents and Im sticking to it...lol!!!


----------



## peachfuzzz (Sep 28, 2009)

BlackMasterPiece said:


> *I think **naturallycurly's hair type definitions** are pretty straightforward and easy to understand.*
> 
> I you're determined to call yourself a 4b then hey, *shrugs* I don't understand why people get so defensive about a hair identification system but hey it is what it islol


 
This is what I used to type my hair too.  It was very straightforward. Texture and porosity are where I'm stumped now!


----------



## AfroKink (Sep 28, 2009)

mwedzi said:


> I just realized that we are even more screwed than we thought when I opened up two pens and found that . . . the pen springs were different sizes!  I quit! In an alternate universe, the pen springs themselves are trying to classify each other into size categories.


 
Oh dang! I'll have you measure the diameter of my penspring for you all!



Priss Pot said:


> It really shouldn't even be that hard, if you ask me. If your hair has type 1,2,3,4 characteristics, then you will just be that type. My hair has kinky coily curly characteristics, so I am a type 4. Pow!!! And there ya have it. Simple and straight to the point.


 
But the thing is... someone like the OP has kinky coily curly characteristics too and she considers herself a type 3! Her hair looks kinky than yours and yours looks silkier than hers. Hair types are interesting




______________________________________________

Hair typing is important to me because things that people 4a and below do to their hair leads to disasterous consequences for my 4b hair. I read the advice, look at the persons hair and then decide if it is applicable to me or not.


----------



## msa (Sep 28, 2009)

Neith said:


> I don't think that sweeping it under the rug and acting like there are no differences is the answer.  Like I said before... undoubtedly, this issue will arise again.
> 
> Lord knows I can also see WHY one would be tempted to do such a thing.  It's frustrating and we go all around in cirlcles.




It's not "the" answer, but it is "an" answer. 

We can't agree, we're never going to agree, and just like the thousand million threads on "excessive" shedding, we will have countless more threads on hair type. Such is life.

It's just too much for me now so I'm sticking with type 4.


----------



## Neith (Sep 28, 2009)

msa said:


> It's not "the" answer, but it is "an" answer.
> 
> We can't agree, we're never going to agree, and just like the thousand million threads on "excessive" shedding, we will have countless more threads on hair type. Such is life.
> 
> It's just too much for me now so I'm sticking with type 4.



but why with only type 4 hair?


----------



## Priss Pot (Sep 28, 2009)

MissAlyssa said:


> Oh dang! I'll have you measure the diameter of my penspring for you all!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Her curl pattern is much much much much looser than mine, so that is why she is a type 3.  Regardless of how thick or kinky her strands are, she has a loose curl pattern which puts her in 3 category.

I have fine strands, but my hair curls tighter than hers, so that puts me at a type 4.



Neith said:


> but why with only type 4 hair?



Seriously, straight up, would folks REALLY be arguing about type 3?  

I'm not sayin; I'm just sayin.....


----------



## msa (Sep 28, 2009)

Neith said:


> but why with only type 4 hair?




I don't know.

I can't tell the difference between the subtypes in 1, 2, or 3 either. In my mind hair is straight (1), wavy (2), curly(3), or coily(4). All the a's, b's, and c's don't make a difference to me.


----------



## jupitermoon (Sep 28, 2009)

MissAlyssa said:


> Oh dang! I'll have you measure the diameter of my penspring for you all!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I didn't type myself, but asked for posters on the hair boards to type my hair and type 3 was the response I got from the majority. I'm still a newbie myself.

I agree that Priss Pot's hair appears much finer and silker than mine. I have coarse strands. If you were to touch my hair it would feel smooth but coarse to touch.

My hair pretty much straightens when wet, dries curly, and gets bigger with time. My wet hair with conditioner is heavy and slippery/"slimmy" feeling. Are these also properties of type 4 hair? I find this thread interesting and am learning a lot about the variations in hair.

Here is my second day hair:





Here's my second day hair with gel:





The pic in my siggie is 5th day hair.



Priss Pot said:


> *Her curl pattern is much much much much looser than mine, so that is why she is a type 3.* Regardless of how thick or kinky her strands are, she has a loose curl pattern which puts her in 3 category.
> 
> I have fine strands, but my hair curls tighter than hers, so that puts me at a type 4.
> 
> ...


 
I do not have coils but "wavy curls", and underneath my hair I have my smaller curls. It looks like this:






*Priss Pot*, your hair is very fine and silky looking versus my thicker coarse looking hair. Your hair is pretty and I like the color. 

All of you that posted in this thread have beautiful hair. 

ETA:  I guess I have type 3 sized curls with a type 4b texture?  Or I'm a type 4 with bigger curls instead of coils?


----------



## Neith (Sep 28, 2009)

msa said:


> I don't know.
> 
> I can't tell the difference between the subtypes in 1, 2, or 3 either. In my mind hair is straight (1), wavy (2), curly(3), or coily(4). All the a's, b's, and c's don't make a difference to me.



I can definitely tell the difference in the subtypes especially of types 1,2 and 3.  1a doesn't look like 1c and 3a doesn't look like 3c for example.  Very DISTINCT differences there.  

Sometimes there is overlap and confusion in those types, but it is nothing like the topic of type 4 hair.

What I think is that maybe type 4a, b and whatever else is out there looks very similar.  The difference in coil diameter between them would be really tiny.  

Unlike the big loose 3a curls compared to tight 3c curls.  That's a big difference.  It's not like you can't tell a tight curl from a loose curl or a tight wave from a loose wave.


I don't know.  I don't understand the difference between 4a and 4b hair  (again! after thinking I had it figured out ).  Coil size seems to be the same, maybe it's all the same stuff with different clumping based on texture.

However, it's also very strange to me that type 4 hair would be the only hair type without any discernable subtypes.  Is there really basically less variety in type 4 hair than other types?

I dunno.  I'm looking at this from all sides.  Blame Andre for making it up


----------



## knt1229 (Sep 28, 2009)

I always thought the biggest difference between 4a and 4b is that 4a can look like 3c hair if the right products are applied. But 4b is never going to look like anything other than 4b. 

Also, I thought that 4a curls can be seen at a distance. Whereas any definition a 4b may have can only be seen if you get right up on the person and get very close to the hair.


----------



## msa (Sep 28, 2009)

Neith said:


> However, it's also very strange to me that type 4 hair would be the only hair type without any discernable subtypes.  Is there really basically less variety in type 4 hair than other types?



The thing is, it's not that I think there is less variety in type 4. I think it has the *most* variety. The problem with the amount of variety is it makes it more difficult to categorize subtypes.

I really think type 4 on a basic level is coily (ranging from larger to tiny) and it's "kinky" (though I don't like that term..."nappy" is more what I mean).  Outside of that, there's too much on even one person's head for me to care about categorizing it. Especially since you basically have to treat a "4a" and a "4b" the same way in order for them to thrive.


----------



## Foxglove (Sep 28, 2009)

lol so now I don't know if I'm 4a or 4b
Ah well I'll refer to myself as type 4 from now


----------



## locabouthair (Sep 28, 2009)

I know for a fact I'm a 4b. If there was such a thing as 5a or 5b that would be me.


----------



## PPGbubbles (Sep 28, 2009)

I initially voted 4b but after reading through this thread I dont know anymore!!!!  Yikes this is confusing :/


----------



## princessnad (Sep 28, 2009)

I didn't know the "silkiness" of the hair had anything to do with hair typing.


----------



## Nonie (Sep 28, 2009)

Can I tell you all something? Knowing your type is really neither here nor there. It really isn't. When I joined the forum, I had no question whatsoever what my hair looked like. I have had natural hair for 3/4 of my life and lived around people with hair like mine for more than half my life. So I knew what my hair looked like. What I didn't know was how to make it grow long. 

However, a couple of years before finding LHCF, I discovered www.blackwomenrejoice.com and got my first lesson on good hair care. Hair type was not brought up; just info that we now take for granted coz we've been on hairboards long enough to know the basics. What's more, my teacher was relaxed and I was planning to transition but she armed me well for the task at hand.  

After joining LHCF, types were introduced to me. Out of curiosity, I wondered if adopting "type-specific regimens" would be the magic formula that I was yet to discover. In no time I had spotted who had my hair and was busy adopting regimens and buying products. It wasn't long before I realized I hated how my hair felt with the changes I was making.  

Since simple good haircare had worked for me well before I got busy with types (Those two years before LHCF I saw my hair grow to 11 inches from one inch, and that with trimming--a feat I'd never known possible) , I decided to return to focusing on general good haircare regardless of type. 

For instance, I learned not to comb my hair dry. I learned about CWs. But I didn't just buy everything I read. For instance, I heard shampoo was bad for you, but I hadn't had any problems with it and like how it made me feel so I ignored that and moved on to the next tidbit on good haircare. The more I applied the general haircare tips to my hair and focused on my hair instead of wondering who had my type what they do, the better I became acquainted with my own hair seeing things I never noticed before. Before long, it was as if I had freed my hair to show me what it was all about. And for the first time in my life I discovered I had soft hair that was a joy to work with. 

When you join any group in life, it's easy to be brainwashed and so immersed in the beliefs of the group that you feel there's nothing outside of it that is real. It's like being in a cult where you start to believe that what the preacher says is gospel and so you just go with the current and never seek out the truth for yourself. I think that's what typing does. No wonder so many of us get frustrated with our hair; because we listen to the next person in the group instead of exploring our own hair and listening to what it tells us. 

Seriously, when this hair growing journey starts to consume us and drain us and make us unhappy or stressed, then that's a sign that we're trying too hard. It's time to go back to basics and remind ourselves what it is that makes hair healthy. And as we focus on that applying general good haircare habits, and using TLC when handling our hair, the journey becomes an adventure of self-discovery and we come to realize that we really do have the best hair in the world. Ask me, I know I do.


----------



## nymane (Sep 28, 2009)

knt1229 said:


> I always thought the biggest difference between 4a and 4b is that 4a can look like 3c hair if the right products are applied. But 4b is never going to look like anything other than 4b.
> 
> Also, I thought that 4a curls can be seen at a distance. Whereas any definition a 4b may have can only be seen if you get right up on the person and get very close to the hair.



This is exactly what I thought. I classify myself as 4b mainly because I can't do wash n go hair styles; no amount of water or product transforms my tresses into curls or waves. However, I can't deny that my new growth clearly has a wavy/curly (lol I don't know how to describe it) texture, but it's not super defined. Any who...nice thread, carry on


----------



## msa (Sep 28, 2009)

nymane said:


> This is exactly what I thought. I classify myself as 4b mainly because* I can't do wash n go hair styles*; no amount of water or product transforms my tresses into curls or waves. However, I can't deny that my new growth clearly has a wavy/curly (lol I don't know how to describe it) texture, but it's not super defined. Any who...nice thread, carry on




Ummm you can still do wash n go's. Just because yours doesn't look the next person's doesn't mean you can't do it. I don't have curls or waves when I wash and go, so what? I rock my fro anyway.


----------



## Dacia38 (Sep 28, 2009)

I'm a 4b and I love my relaxed hair.  I never heard of hair typing until I joined this board.  I can say that I have the "type" of hair that I can pretty much do anything or nothing to and it still manages to stay fairly healthy.  I'm not bragging about that, but it is just a fact.  In fact, I didn't know how deprived my hair was until I lucked up across this board a few weeks ago.  My daughter has 4b hair also....but her hair breaks easily (which is why I searched out the boards).  Frankly it doesn't matter to me what type of hair we have.  However, I can honestly say that within the 4 weeks of reading these boards and learning how valuable deep conditioning is, me and my daughters hair is noticeable stronger.  

I realize I am way off topic, but I would like to thank everyone for their comments and for being such a supportive "family" regardless of what hair type.

...ramble over..now to our regularly schedule program...

~Dee


----------



## nymane (Sep 28, 2009)

msa said:


> Ummm you can still do wash n go's. Just because yours doesn't look the next person's doesn't mean you can't do it. I don't have curls or waves when I wash and go, so what? I rock my fro anyway.



Yes, if I were natural I'd rock a fro, but I'm relaxed and when I tried, it was HAM...


----------



## Priss Pot (Sep 28, 2009)

princessnad said:


> I didn't know the "silkiness" of the hair had anything to do with hair typing.



I don't think it does.  I thought it only had to do with curl size.  The thickness/coarseness of the strand is just a trait and not a determining factor of the 1,2,3,4 types, IMO.


----------



## virtuenow (Sep 28, 2009)

Let me throw in 2 more cents before the forum closes:

After reading the whole forum and the "Her 4b is not my 4b" forum, this is how we need to break down the type 4 category:

*Characteristics to look for and distinguish*

- coarse (like thread) v. fine (like silk)
- coarse (as in thick single strands) v. fine (as in small thin strands of hair)
- hard v. soft
- silky/moist/shiny v. dry/rough/wiry
- clumping v. matting 

*It seems we need to break the 4 hair type into at least four categories:*
(here is why: dry/thick/coarse/matting v. silky/moist/clumpers----> this is the common denominator that always gets in the way. 

*4a1 Category 1:*

size curl: small to tiny (pencil to average pen spring diameter) 
shape/definition: coils/waves/ziggy 5's /"S's/O's
texture: SILKY, MOIST, *kicker--> may be fine or coarse
properties: CLUMP and wave
natural style ability (water to dry): wash and go with clumps of curls/coils/waves; may lay hair down flat- with visible waves and shine

*4a2 Category 2:*

size curl: tiny to micro (diameter of he average pen spring or smaller)
shape: coils/waves/ziggy 5's /"S's/O's
texture: moist/shiny/silky 
properties: clumping or waving 
natural style ability (water to dry): wash and go with clumps of curls/coils/waves; may lay hair down flat- with visible waves and shine

*4b1 Category 3:*

size curl: small to tiny (pencil to average pen spring diameter) 
shape/definition: coils/waves/ziggy 5's/"S's/O's
texture: fine or coarse/hard, wiry + *dry*
properties: matting + tangling + extreme shrinkage
natural style ability (water to dry): hmmm, let me know; wash n no 

*4b2 Category 4:*

size curl: tiny to micro (average pen spring diameter or smaller) 
shape/definition: coils/waves/ziggy 5's/"S's/O's
texture: fine or coarse/hard, wiry + *dry*
properties: matting + tangling + extreme shrinkage
natural style ability (water to dry): wash n no


*Root of Confusion:*

*It looks like the tightly coiled dry/matting hair vs. silky/moist/clump hair  is the biggest factor that is confusing us at this point.*  I beleive we need sub categories in the 4hair type for several reasons.  For one, my dry/thick/coarse 4B hair could never do what the SILKY/MOIST 4a, b, ab hair types do.  No matter how tightly coiled a person is, if they have that moist/shiny hair that lays down in waves or clumps in coils, then I cannot fully relate to them or their product use (i.e. water, grease and gel, ha!).  Resolution I!

** please note:*

I have found multiple definitions for many of these terms; and they seem to be used interchangably.  For coarse,  some people use it to describe the "feel" of hair; some use it 
to describe the thickness; and some even use it to describe the dryness factor of hair.

I believe we have all agreed that hair has to have some form of texture (from straight to looping) but it will not come in the form of a uniform "z" or hard angles growing out of the scalp


----------



## chicacanella (Sep 28, 2009)

*I'm 3c/d/4a.*


----------



## LaidBak (Sep 28, 2009)

CurlyMoo said:


> I thinks it's hard to get an acurrate poll because everyone won't vote. I personally am only guessing at what a 4b is. I need to see some pictures to confirm it. I think a friend of mine is 4b. *It's very dense, thick with micro waves*. I was cornrowing her hair and loved it. Can't wait to get back in it.



If that's the definition of 4b then I think that's what I am.


----------



## BotanyGrl (Sep 28, 2009)

Nonie said:


> Can I tell you all something? Knowing your type is really neither here nor there. It really isn't. When I joined the forum, I had no question whatsoever what my hair looked like. I have had natural hair for 3/4 of my life and lived around people with hair like mine for more than half my life. So I knew what my hair looked like. What I didn't know was how to make it grow long...



Nonie, your whole post was on point. At this point in my journey I feel that hair typing is irrelevant. After transitioning for a year, I'm pretty sure that my hair is in the "Type 4" spectrum but knowing that has not helped me take care of my hair in any way. Outside of hair boards nobody even knows what the hair typing crap means.

What does it mean outside of finding a hair twin or thinking someone's regimen may work for you? I've seen a ton of 4Bs on this board stating that what another 4B did to their hair does not work for her... And the same for 4As. If you want healthy hair, don't complicate it with hair typing... worry about if you have fine, normal, or coarse strands, hair porosity, protein/moisture imbalances... stuff that actually matters.


----------



## wavezncurlz (Sep 28, 2009)

I have read all these pages and I'm STILL not sure what 4b hair is. Hell, I don't know what 3c and 4a is. I'm confused.


----------



## Nonie (Sep 28, 2009)

chicacanella said:


> *I'm 3c/d/4a.*



I know Chicacanella didn't just insert a D. 

We need T-shirts that say Team 4-Something, those of us who've reached a conclusion.

ETA: The rest of you still trying to figure this out...



*MAY THE FORCE BE WITH YOU.*


----------



## sylver2 (Sep 28, 2009)

Priss Pot said:


> Her curl pattern is much much much much looser than mine, so that is why she is a type 3.  Regardless of how thick or kinky her strands are, she has a loose curl pattern which puts her in 3 category.
> 
> *I have fine strands, but my hair curls tighter than hers, so that puts me at a type 4.*
> 
> ...



imo you are not type 4 at all!! i see no 4. Your hair is gorgeous though!!


----------



## Daughter (Sep 29, 2009)

For me this is a moot point though, cos even two heads of type 4 hair that look similar may react very differently to products and other stuff. My cousin had (she's relaxed her hair now) lovely long natural type 4 hair that was at least BSL. Swimming and so on had no effect on her hair, it was resilient. Mine, on the other hand broke off easily and needs much more TLC. If you looked at our hair you'd think we were hair twins but what works for her didn't for me and vice versa.

Hair typing is useful, but only to an extent.


----------



## luckiestdestiny (Sep 29, 2009)

The original question to where are the four b's seems to have shown up in the poll. There are more 2x as many 4bs then 4as and more 4bs the all the 3 groups. The only group that overshadows the 4bs seems to be the combination 4a/4b group. So from this poll so far, 4b's are not hiding out somewhere. They are darn near the majority if you count the combo group of 4a/4b as well. If not, they are the second majority so far in this time, in the poll.


----------



## bravenewgirl87 (Sep 29, 2009)

*Thank you Nonie and Neith for all your help.
Typing 4b hair is not nearly as complicated as members are making it out to be. People simply don't want to accept the truth.

To be honest, the only time your hair texture serves some importance is if you are natural and want to figure out how to achieve certain styles that require curls. If you are relaxed, it is kind of not important to know your texture. Your hair will let you know what products it likes from what it does not like. 
The reason I say this is because completely natural hair behaves significantly different from relaxed hair. Once you have your relaxed ends completely off, you're in a whole new ballgame. The conditioners you used previously to promote healthy beautiful hair might not (more than likely) won't work on your natural hair.  Crazy as it sounds, those little ends can make a world of difference.*


----------



## Kurlee (Sep 29, 2009)

Priss Pot said:


> Her curl pattern is much much much much looser than mine, so that is why she is a type 3.  Regardless of how thick or kinky her strands are, she has a loose curl pattern which puts her in 3 category.
> 
> I have fine strands, but my hair curls tighter than hers, so that puts me at a type 4.
> 
> ...


 stop skewing the categories, if you're 4a then you push the rest of us into 5. Love the hair and colour though


----------



## Kurlee (Sep 29, 2009)

princessnad said:


> I didn't know the "silkiness" of the hair had anything to do with hair typing.


it doesn't but silkiness in many's minds ups your hair "quality", therefore, higher category, regardless of curl size


----------



## bravenewgirl87 (Sep 29, 2009)

Kurlee said:


> it doesn't but silkiness in many's minds ups your hair "quality", therefore, higher category, regardless of curl size



*It does determine the texture of hair. silkiness=moisture retention=clumping of curls. They are all pretty related.

Take for example: Type 3s are more glossy, well defined curls. While there are different variations amongst those type 3s (3A-3B-3C) and each of those require a certain amount of care to achieve a curly look, it's very obvious that there's a difference in the way type-3 feels and reacts to products compared to type-4. Type 4 can have mild shine--with care-- but it is not naturally shiny.*


----------



## anon123 (Sep 29, 2009)

virtuenow said:


> *4a Category 1:*
> 
> size curl: small to tiny (pencil to average pen spring diameter)
> shape/definition: coils/waves/ziggy 5's /"S's/O's
> ...



No matter the typing system, I always end up at the end of the spectrum! 



luckiestdestiny said:


> The original question to where are the four b's seems to have shown up in the poll. There are more 2x as many 4bs then 4as and more 4bs the all the 3 groups. The only group that overshadows the 4bs seems to be the combination 4a/4b group. So from this poll so far, 4b's are not hiding out somewhere. They are darn near the majority if you count the combo group of 4a/4b as well. If not, they are the second majority so far in this time, in the poll.



We definitely are not hiding, but I think this poll is not representative of the board.  Because the title itself is calling out to 4bs, they come in this thread, so they vote more.  The board poll "what is your hair type" that is floating around here is a bit more representative:
http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=66804&highlight=what+hair+type

The biggest group is 4a/b and the second is 3c/4a.  I think a lot of people chose the mixed categories precisely because it's hard to fit squarely in these typing boxes!  Well, not hard for me, no one's ever said I was anything other than 4b.


----------



## msa (Sep 29, 2009)

mwedzi said:


> The biggest group is 4a/b and the second is 3c/4a.  I think a lot of people chose the mixed categories precisely because it's hard to fit squarely in these typing boxes!  Well, not hard for me, no one's ever said I was anything other than 4b.




Well according to some of the logic in this thread, you're a 4a because you have little tiny coils.


----------



## bravenewgirl87 (Sep 29, 2009)

*I'll answer the OP:

Majority of black people (by nature) are type-4. Hence, why you had so many members who grew up in Africa or around Africans say that 4b is very distinct and does exist.
Many people who claim to have 4b hair on boards and in videos do not. But, you will find many of them on the streets.
I believe that certain people have H.D.D. (Hair Dysmorphia Disorder) which causes them to believe they are a certain texture that they clearly are not. 
Many of it stems from the fact that the standards for black hair care are now higher. Especially since this outburst in the education of black hair care. 

I have noticed that Black people categorize hair texture according to what the textures are in their family. If you have a relative with type-2 hair, obviously that will shape your perception of hair textures. Anything that requires more effort than type-2 would be considered "bad."  With that in mind, you have a lot of type-3s who categorize their hair as type-4a/b because of a mild bought with frizz or because a few curls here and there that are not perfect ringlets.

It is the same with skin tone. You have several different undertones amongst all skin shades which can affect how skin color is viewed in other people's mind. Some people tan easily, while some rarely get darker than an 1/4 of a shade. Both can still be light-skin or dark-skin. You can be light with red undertones, orange, blue, yellow, bronze, or brown. The same for dark-skin. Same with whites. But, perception is dependent on how the individual was raised to see skin shades; if you were taught that anything darker than Alicia Keys is "dark," obviously Halle Berry's complexion would be confusing for you.

You also have flip side of this theory. 

 You have many type 4As that have relatively small curls with the potential to be defined but lack the sheen of type-3 hair, YET insist on being referred to as 3b-3c. There is not a huge difference between type 3C and type 4A, especially once styled. However, there is a difference on the two textures behavior and feel. One of more cottony and spongy. The other (when healthy) is more springy and glossy.

The system is very easy but people don't want to accept their natural textures. That is why I'm apprehensive of all this "love your natural" texture hoopla. There is not enough accuracy or honesty out there and it is deluding others expectations of their hair. You have a lot of 4Bs doing wash-n-gos and wondering why they are having breakage issues or when their "scab hair" will end so they can have hair like Cree Summer.

 Not going to happen, captain. You is nappy and you need to accept it... or relax.
*


----------



## Kurlee (Sep 29, 2009)

bravenewgirl87 said:


> *It does determine the texture of hair. silkiness=moisture retention=clumping of curls. They are all pretty related.
> 
> Take for example: Type 3s are more glossy, well defined curls. While there are different variations amongst those type 3s (3A-3B-3C) and each of those require a certain amount of care to achieve a curly look, it's very obvious that there's a difference in the way type-3 feels and reacts to products compared to type-4. Type 4 can have mild shine--with care-- but it is not naturally shiny.*


you've never seen silky 4a's and dull 3c's? This hair typing thing is getting outlandish. Black people seriously have issues with their hair, man. GEEZ!


----------



## loulou82 (Sep 29, 2009)

sylver2 said:


> imo you are not type 4 at all!! i see no 4. Your hair is gorgeous though!!



Some hair type systems describe 4A type as ranging from pencil size to coffee- stirrer size curls/coils. If that is an accurate description then she could be a 4A. Her hair may be styled in her siggy so her natural un-manipulated curl pattern isn't shown.


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## Kurlee (Sep 29, 2009)

loulou82 said:


> Some hair type systems describe 4A type as ranging from pencil size to coffee- stirrer size curls/coils. If that is an accurate description then she could be a 4A. Her hair may be styled in her siggy so her natural un-manipulated curl pattern isn't shown.


it's funny how type 4 hair has to be totally unmanipulated and dry like a bone to determine texture, but no other hair type requires that to decide what the texture is?  It's like when type 4 hair looks a certain way, it's like, an explanation needs to follow or it needs to be seen 'naked'.   When other hair types are styled and show their texture, whatever that is, it just is? Why is that?


----------



## bravenewgirl87 (Sep 29, 2009)

Kurlee said:


> you've never seen silky 4a's and dull 3c's? This hair typing thing is getting outlandish. Black people seriously have issues with their hair, man. GEEZ!


*
Well, no Sh*t, Sherlock.

I'm not going to have this discussion with you if you're going to continue to throw out accusations. Your personal offenses to everything said about hair does not reflect my personal attitude on the issue. Just because someone says that their hair does not shine, does not mean that they hate their hair.
You are being the epitome of dramatic.

 Please keep in mind that I am speaking on healthy hair for both textures. I'm a definitely 4B (C-napp) all around. When people look at my hair with no product, they might make the assumption that it is "dry"  or "rough" to the touch because it does not have the "glossy" look to it as some curlies. My hair is perfectly healthy, but once out of the shower it does not shine. It's just a cottony mass. *


----------



## ceecy29 (Sep 29, 2009)

For real, just because I wish my hair had a little shine doesn't mean I hate my hair or have issues with it or think the next 3xyz is more superior. So now cos my Asian roomie wishes she could do a fro with her hair and she vocalizes this, means she has issues with her hair?


----------



## loulou82 (Sep 29, 2009)

Kurlee said:


> it's funny how type 4 hair has to be totally unmanipulated and dry like a bone to determine texture, but no other hair type requires that to decide what the texture is?  It's like when type 4 hair looks a certain way, it's like, an explanation needs to follow or it needs to be seen 'naked'.   When other hair types are styled and show their texture, whatever that is, it just is? Why is that?



I  don't apply a different analysis when looking at a 4 vs. 3, 2, or 1. Most hair type categories have flaws and some request un manipulated hair.

I personally don't believe hair has to be "naked" (no products at all- meaning no conditioner or moisturizers) but I don't think it should be manipulated in a style (twist out, braid out, bantu knot out) either.

My main point was that Miss Priss Pot could be a 4A based only on her curl pattern (since shine, sheen, porosity, density, and strand diameter are not taken into account by most systems). She hair looked as though it could be in a stretched style.


----------



## Kurlee (Sep 29, 2009)

bravenewgirl87 said:


> *
> Well, no Sh*t, Sherlock.
> 
> I'm not going to have this discussion with you if you're going to continue to throw out accusations. Your personal offenses to everything said about hair does not reflect my personal attitude on the issue. Just because someone says that their hair does not shine, does not mean that they hate their hair.
> ...


 k first of all, I didn't make the accusations towards you, if I was I would say YOU! I was talking about the thread in general. Secondly,  maybe I hit a nerve or something because I have never implied the underlined red at all. You're calling me dramatic, when you are the one cussing and being sarcastic over hair typing? Errrrmmmm ok?   Third, calm down!

It's cool to have differing viewpoints, because it is an opportunity to learn. Plain and simple.  I think what annoys me about this thread is not individuals like you, because I respect everyone's opinion, it's the fact that many are missing that this whole hair typing thing and the way we frame it, the rules we apply to it are good hair/bad hair all over again.  That's all. 

I could care less who thinks 4b shines and 2a waves. At the end of the day, something like hair or skin, will never neatly fit into a box. It just can't. Genetics are too complex for that. I consider myself 4a because according to how I understand it, that's where my hair would *best* fit. Does that mean I could have some 4b tendencies? Sure! 3C tendencies? Sure! All it helps me do, is sift through the many members and get to see who has hair similar to mine and what they are trying with their hair. I check out hair advice from anyone 3b-4b and even some relaxed ladies, because guess what? It's all hair, it's all curly and it's all dry to an extent, therefore, we will generally need to do the same things, give or take. Geesh!


----------



## Kurlee (Sep 29, 2009)

ceecy29 said:


> For real, just because I wish my hair had a little shine doesn't mean I hate my hair or have issues with it or think the next 3xyz is more superior. So now cos my Asian roomie wishes she could do a fro with her hair and she vocalizes this, means she has issues with her hair?


If this was directed at me, I think many are MISUNDERSTANDING my post. I simply meant that to apply stringent rules on hair types is EXTRA. Some hair shines and some hair doesn't. I have seen on this board, shiny and glossy 4's and dull looking 3's.  The overall point is that hair is very diverse and to have a 20435493854320 page thread trying to say who has gloss and who doesn't? I mean really?erplexed When I said black folks have issues with their hair? Am I lying? If we can sit here and try soooooo hard to 'make up' rules as to whose hair is supposed to do what and look like what, that doesn't strike me as something is a non-issue.


----------



## Desarae (Sep 29, 2009)

I've never been told I was 4a until this thread either...


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## anon123 (Sep 29, 2009)

msa said:


> Well according to some of the logic in this thread, you're a 4a because you have little tiny coils.



That does not count!  It doesn't count if you're only saying it to prove a point!    My hair is thought of as so typically 4b that you can actually make arguments using it as evidence.  If someone says "4b hair does x", you can actually enter my hair as an exhibit and be like "mwedzi's hair doesn't" and it will stand in court!


----------



## jupitermoon (Sep 29, 2009)

I've enjoyed reading everyone's views on this.  Thanks.

*Bravenewgirl87*, you bring up interesting points.  

As for shiny 4's and dull 3's perhaps it's not the silkiness of the hair that determines curl clumping but the smoothness?  Like cottony/spongy hair may not clump as much and is light and tends to grow up instead of down?  Hair that is smooth may not necessarily be fine and silky?


----------



## loulou82 (Sep 29, 2009)

Is there a  4B/4A category? I think I may have to switch my vote.


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## msa (Sep 29, 2009)

mwedzi said:


> That does not count!  It doesn't count if you're only saying it to prove a point!    My hair is thought of as so typically 4b that you can actually make arguments using it as evidence.  If someone says "4b hair does x", you can actually enter my hair as an exhibit and be like "mwedzi's hair doesn't" and it will stand in court!




 Exactly. You are def "4b". But folks are talking about "4b" doesn't have any coils...it has no pattern whatsoever. And in that case nobody is 4b except for the 1a's. 

Like I said, I'm sticking with type 4...matter of fact I might just go back to calling it nappy. Forget all this extra stuff.


----------



## bravenewgirl87 (Sep 29, 2009)

Kurlee said:


> k first of all, I didn't make the accusations towards you, if I was I would say YOU! I was talking about the thread in general. Secondly,  maybe I hit a nerve or something because I have never implied the underlined red at all. You're calling me dramatic, when you are the one cussing and being sarcastic over hair typing? Errrrmmmm ok?   Third, calm down!
> 
> It's cool to have differing viewpoints, because it is an opportunity to learn. Plain and simple.  I think what annoys me about this thread is not individuals like you, because I respect everyone's opinion, it's the fact that many are missing that this whole hair typing thing and the way we frame it, the rules we apply to it are good hair/bad hair all over again.  That's all.
> 
> I could care less who thinks 4b shines and 2a waves. At the end of the day, something like hair or skin, will never neatly fit into a box. It just can't. Genetics are too complex for that. I consider myself 4a because according to how I understand it, that's where my hair would *best* fit. Does that mean I could have some 4b tendencies? Sure! 3C tendencies? Sure! All it helps me do, is sift through the many members and get to see who has hair similar to mine and what they are trying with their hair. I check out hair advice from anyone 3b-4b and even some relaxed ladies, because guess what? It's all hair, it's all curly and it's all dry to an extent, therefore, we will generally need to do the same things, give or take. Geesh!


*
ohwell: ... alright with the okie-doke, Kurlee. And, we'll continue to play this same tired game ....*


----------



## Kurlee (Sep 29, 2009)

bravenewgirl87 said:


> *
> ohwell: ... alright with the okie-doke, Kurlee. And, we'll continue to play this same tired game ....*


okay, i dunno what your problem is, because you are looking for something that isn't there. Looking for drama, where there isn;t any, as usual.


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## bravenewgirl87 (Sep 29, 2009)

CelinaStarr said:


> I've enjoyed reading everyone's views on this.  Thanks.
> 
> *Bravenewgirl87*, you bring up interesting points.
> 
> As for shiny 4's and dull 3's perhaps it's not the silkiness of the hair that determines curl clumping but the smoothness?  Like cottony/spongy hair may not clump as much and is light and tends to grow up instead of down?  Hair that is smooth may not necessarily be fine and silky?



*They way you put it would probably be best. Some people attribute "glossy, silky, or sheen" to 1a hair, or white people. That is there hangup, not mine. But, you can have curly textured hair that has sheen and shine (provided it is healthy). Type-3s tend to have more shine with or without products. 
Part of what makes type 4 hair look dull is the frizz factor and thickness. It might take more effort to clump the hair as opposed to a type 3 (provided it clumps at all). Once it dries, it become more of a cottony, frizzy mass than with type 3. But, it is not to say that it cannot mimic 3c hair.  you can see individual curls in the 4A hair when wet.

*


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## bravenewgirl87 (Sep 29, 2009)

Kurlee said:


> okay, i dunno what your problem is, because you are looking for something that isn't there. Looking for drama, where there isn;t any, as usual.


*
You are the epitome of drama! The littlest things turn into a "this-is-what-is-wrong-with-the-black-community" discussion with you. Why can it n ever be, "this-is-what-is-wrong-with-Kurlee"? That is my problem with you. You jump down people's throat, put words in their mouth and then assume your problems with a particular issue is every black person's problem. THEN, you deny it when  the person didn't just call you out.  Girl.... STOP! Kurlee, who cares if someone says 4A hair does not shine as easily as 3C hair?

WHHOOOO FRICKIN' CARES? *


----------



## msa (Sep 29, 2009)

Kurlee said:


> okay, i dunno what your problem is, because you *are looking for something that isn't there*. Looking for drama, where there isn;t any, as usual.



I just went back and reread...and it ain't there. 

I was going to say it's "just" hair typing, but clearly it's more than that.


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## glamazon386 (Sep 29, 2009)

virtuenow said:


> *4b Category 2:*
> 
> size curl: tiny to micro (diameter of he average pen spring or smaller)
> shape: coils/waves/ziggy 5's /"S's/O's
> ...



This is a great breakdown but I've never seen a 4b that looked shiny or silky. 4b hair may feel soft to the touch but it usually doesn't look it - even when moisturized to the max. I'm just saying...  IME, most 4a's aren't even shiny. I understand the silky texture for 4a though. And some 3's are dull and not shiny. There's so many exceptions.


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## Kurlee (Sep 29, 2009)

bravenewgirl87 said:


> *
> You are the epitome of drama! The littlest things turn into a "this-is-what-is-wrong-with-the-black-community" discussion with you. Why can it n ever be, "this-is-what-is-wrong-with-Kurlee"? That is my problem with you. You jump down people's throat, put words in their mouth and then assume your problems with a particular issue is every black person's problem. THEN, you deny it when  the person didn't just call you out.  Girl.... STOP! Kurlee, who cares if someone says 4A hair does not shine as easily as 3C hair?
> 
> WHHOOOO FRICKIN' CARES? *


Okay, clearly reading comprehension is something you need to work on, so I will not bother to even properly respond to you. Calling me out about hair typing? Really?! If you haven't noticed, I am more than willing to engage anyone who disagrees with me, because I stand by what I say and welcome opportunities to see things in ways I may not have considered before. If you misunderstood and when I explain, still insist on telling me what I meant, then who is shoving what down whose throat?  

Clearly you have totally misinterpreted everything I have said in this thread and are super projecting because anything I have stated is based on personal experience and I truly believe that it is detrimental to anyone, black or otherwise, to try to put people in neat boxes, because people just don't and never will fit into the categories people are so obsessed with putting them in. If you have a problem, thinking in abstract ways, that is not my problem.  So as I put you on ignore, I would like to politely ask you to no longer read my posts, if you cannot properly: a) understand them and b) intelligently and articulately, disagree without being combative, disrespectful, aggressive and rude.  I respect your opinion, but clearly you can't respect mine without being rude, therefore, we no longer should engage each other.


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## andromeda (Sep 29, 2009)

This thread has me buggin' out.


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## jupitermoon (Sep 29, 2009)

rosa praeclara said:


> This thread has me buggin' out.


 
OMG!  Eww!  What is that?! lol


----------



## msa (Sep 29, 2009)

Rosa that picture is gross.


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## Neith (Sep 29, 2009)

rosa praeclara said:


> This thread has me buggin' out.



He looks like a 1b to me, what do y'all think?

Yessir, he is an ugly thing.  What movie is this from? lol


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## bravenewgirl87 (Sep 29, 2009)

*Anyhoo, OP... carry on.

Besides one hiccup, I understood the purpose of your thread. As hair afficianados, there should be diversity amongst textures but, most 4bs need not apply. 
 Like others have said before, descriptions of hair types can overlap sometimes but, that is very rare. A 4A will react different when it comes to styling than a 3c or 3b.
Most of the times, it is people's own personal attitudes towards their hair texture that makes them see a type of curl that is not theirs (HDD, as I call it). Like, people with 2A hair referring to it as "kinky". Nope... it is just damaged.
Sometimes it is their fault, sometimes you have to chalk it up to misinformation. You have a lot of Youtubers, Bloggers, etc. who purposefully post pics of their hair in twist-outs, braid-outs, etc. just to deceive others (although, really themselves). You never see their hair wet or unpolished so you have no real clue what their hair looks like.*


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## andromeda (Sep 29, 2009)

msa said:


> Rosa that picture is gross.


It is, isn't it?



Neith said:


> He looks like a 1b to me, what do y'all think?
> 
> Yessir, he is an ugly thing.  What movie is this from? lol


  Yeah, probably a 1b but with awfully thin hair.  I think with some castor oil and protective styling he could be full ear length by 2010.

I have no idea where it's from.  Just a pic I came across a while back and saved bc I figured it would have some use in the future.  Well, the confusion (hair type and non-hair type related) in this thread had me buggin, hence the pic...

Sorry if it gave anyone a serious case of the heebie-jeebies.  Carry on!


----------



## melodies815 (Sep 29, 2009)

mwedzi said:


> That does not count!  It doesn't count if you're only saying it to prove a point!    My hair is thought of as so typically 4b that you can actually make arguments using it as evidence.  If someone says "4b hair does x", you can actually enter my hair as an exhibit and be like "mwedzi's hair doesn't" and it will stand in court!



You're funny.  I love how you love your hair. 

cj


----------



## chiprecious (Sep 29, 2009)

To answer the initial question, yes, I do think 4b hair is not quite as common as the other types.  But you won't be an actual percentage because a lot of people are confused about their type.  

Well I'm a happy nappy super duper 4.  Is that a category??!!  erplexed

But it's simply ridiculous and sad how we as a people are still soooooo obsesses with hair texture AND skin color.  This board (hair section) is about women of color achieving healthy hair.  But all of these texture threads always seem to go back to self hatred based on slavery days.  Is it really so serious to have THIS MANY PAGES debating coils, curls, and naps??  :realitycheck:

If something doesn't work on your texture, make a note and move on!  I'm 9 months into my transition and I already know that when I post BC pics, I won't get as many "Oh your hair is so purty" posts.  Hate me for saying this, but I'm light enough but my hair is too nappy.  I get it and accept it.  I also know to not expect to be able to use coconut oil and water to slick my edges.  GET OVER IT AND DO YOU!!!!!!  ffrant:


----------



## Nonie (Sep 29, 2009)

msa said:


> Well according to some of the logic in this thread, you're a 4a because you have little tiny coils.





mwedzi said:


> That does not count!  It doesn't count if you're only saying it to prove a point!    My hair is thought of as so typically 4b that you can actually make arguments using it as evidence.  If someone says "4b hair does x", you can actually enter my hair as an exhibit and be like "mwedzi's hair doesn't" and it will stand in court!





msa said:


> Exactly. You are def "4b". But folks are talking about "4b" doesn't have any coils...it has no pattern whatsoever. And in that case nobody is 4b except for the 1a's.
> 
> Like I said, I'm sticking with type 4...matter of fact I might just go back to calling it nappy. Forget all this extra stuff.



OK, Msa, you had me clutching my pearls going "Say WHAAAT???" when you wrote Mwedzi was 4A. I need to stay tuned in coz I missed your sarcasm and thought I had lost  you.   

Hail Team 4-Something! 



CelinaStarr said:


> *Bravenewgirl87*, you bring up interesting points.
> 
> As for shiny 4's and dull 3's perhaps it's not the silkiness of the hair that determines curl clumping but the smoothness?  Like cottony/spongy hair may not clump as much and is light and tends to grow up instead of down?  Hair that is smooth may not necessarily be fine and silky?





Incidentally, I would like to chime in on the suggestion that a long discussion about type such as this shows we have _issues _about our hair. I personally do not and I know there are many in this discussion who do not. 

The reason I have been so active in this thread is because I truly get pleasure from sharing any knowledge I have. For me, my hair journey has been pure joy. Yes there are days I'm at a loss on what to do with my hair--like when my twists were at some weird length and just didn't seem to hang right. But you won't find me getting all frustrated with it. I love head wraps. I love baggying...and so I might go with that for a day or two, but within a few days, my hair and I make up and we're off on yet another honeymoon. Do I care about shine? No. Do I care about clumping? No. Does it bother me that it looks CNappy at times? No. I love my hair and all it's quirks and to be honest I sometimes have to remind myself to be humble and replace pride with gratitude because I had nothing to do with this crowning glory and it takes just one misfortune to lose it all.

So I guess there may be people in this thread with issues about hair. Nay, I_ know_ there are people with issues about hair here, but there are also people who really just want to learn. People who have been told one thing all their lives and now suddenly are being told "Pluto isn't a planet" so are going, "Huh? Hold on one friggin' minute...."

Hence the questions abound and the discussion continues as those of us who feel certain that we _*get*_ it--personal convictions BTW, not necessarily the gospel--share as much as we can in the hope that those who weren't sure too can get to a place where their questions are somewhat answered. 

Oh and just because some of us "informers" now say we will henceforth be of type 4-something doesn't mean we are no longer convinced about, say, my type or Mwedzi's or Priss Pot's or Neith's....to name a few; but rather we're realizing that some are finding this more complicated than it needs to be. Therefore, why not settle for the one title we all can agree on: Type 4. After all, not knowing your type will not stop you from growing a good head of hair. In fact, I think focusing on type can be more of a distraction from actually absorbing the necessary information needed to grow and retain what we all want: a healthy head of hair. 

All hair regardless of type needs the same basic building blocks and nourishment. The difference in proportions needed are unique to each particular head, not a particular type--which is why your hair might like Shea butter and mine might not. Or yours might like a lot of protein and mine might not. Yours may get mushy with too much moisture while mine may thirst for moisture all the time. I might be anemic and need extra iron while you might not. All these differences occur in varying degrees *within* all types. So everyone needs to get familiar with his or her own hair and learn how to discern its needs so that s/he can adjust  his/her *own* regimen as necessary. The last thing you need is to wake up one day with a sorry head of hair that has been neglected for years because you were so busy chasing, say, Mwedzi's hair and her regimen, you forgot to come home to your own hair and spend quality time with it and can make that "marriage" work.


----------



## Kurlee (Sep 29, 2009)

chiprecious said:


> To answer the initial question, yes, I do think 4b hair is not quite as common as the other types.  But you won't be an actual percentage because a lot of people are confused about their type.
> 
> Well I'm a happy nappy super duper 4.  Is that a category??!!  erplexed
> 
> ...


----------



## Kurlee (Sep 29, 2009)

Nonie said:


> OK, Msa, you had me clutching my pearls going "Say WHAAAT???" when you wrote Mwedzi was 4A. I need to stay tuned in coz I missed your sarcasm and thought I had lost  you.
> 
> Hail Team 4-Something!
> 
> ...


----------



## bravenewgirl87 (Sep 29, 2009)

Nonie said:


> OK, Msa, you had me clutching my pearls going "Say WHAAAT???" when you wrote Mwedzi was 4A. I need to stay tuned in coz I missed your sarcasm and thought I had lost  you.
> 
> Hail Team 4-Something!
> 
> ...



*This has been my sentiments all along. I don't even think it matters what texture you UNLESS you're trying to make it do something it CANNOT inherently do. It just... won't do it. 
You can learn to work with your texture. Each varying texture has its own set of unique  problems, as with each head of hair.

ETA: Majority of the severe problems that people assume other blacks might have with their texture really only exist on hair message boards, IMO. Some people think their hair is too nappy to wear out, they slap on a relaxer or a weave and go along their merry way. All this getting up-in-arms because someone even remotely implied (in the individual's mind) that a person's hair might be nappy is obsolete to me, IRL. 

A lot of the descriptive words about certain hair textures are misleading, but image is everything to some women. The fact that type-4 hair is not "dry" in texture but can look "dry" really bothers some women. There's just something about that potential "undone" look doesn't sit right with them.*


----------



## Priss Pot (Sep 29, 2009)

loulou82 said:


> My main point was that Miss Priss Pot could be a 4A based only on her curl pattern (since shine, sheen, porosity, density, and strand diameter are not taken into account by most systems). She hair looked as though it could be in a stretched style.



The style in my siggy is my natural texture.  My hairline is 4a, and I have a patch (about the size of my palm) in my crown area that has 4a properties and is also the driest.  The rest of my hair has a looser pattern. I don't really claim 3c like that, even though that's what a lot of my hair is.  I claim the highest numbered texture that is in my hair (4a) because when buying products, I want to be sure to get stuff that will work on my highest texture instead of getting stuff that just works on type 3 hair, and have my type 4 looking busted using the wrong products.

I hope that made sense.  But that's how I type *my* hair.


----------



## Nonie (Sep 29, 2009)

Neith said:


> He looks like a 1b to me, what do y'all think?
> 
> Yessir, he is an ugly thing.  What movie is this from? lol



Neith, I'm gonna need you to sit on the naughty stool for a bit. I'm mad you checked out his hair texture.


----------



## loulou82 (Sep 29, 2009)

Priss Pot said:


> The style in my siggy is my natural texture.  My hairline is 4a, and I have a patch (about the size of my palm) in my crown area that has 4a properties and is also the driest.  The rest of my hair has a looser pattern. I don't really claim 3c like that, even though that's what a lot of my hair is.  I claim the highest numbered texture that is in my hair (4a) because when buying products, I want to be sure to get stuff that will work on my highest texture instead of getting stuff that just works on type 3 hair, and have my type 4 looking busted using the wrong products.
> 
> I hope that made sense.  But that's how I type *my* hair.



 Cool. Welcome to the 4 Type/ Something/ Whatever Family .


----------



## glamazon386 (Sep 29, 2009)

Priss Pot said:


> The style in my siggy is my natural texture.  My hairline is 4a, and I have a patch (about the size of my palm) in my crown area that has 4a properties and is also the driest.  The rest of my hair has a looser pattern. I don't really claim 3c like that, even though that's what a lot of my hair is.  I claim the highest numbered texture that is in my hair (4a) because when buying products, I want to be sure to get stuff that will work on my highest texture instead of getting stuff that just works on type 3 hair, and have my type 4 looking busted using the wrong products.
> 
> I hope that made sense.  But that's how I type *my* hair.



ITA with this whole post... Our hair is similar.


----------



## Neith (Sep 29, 2009)

Nonie said:


> Neith, I'm gonna need you to sit on the naughty stool for a bit. I'm mad you checked out his hair texture.



We were already on the subject though


----------



## DarkVictory (Sep 29, 2009)

Neith said:


> He looks like a 1b to me, what do y'all think?



Looks like a scab hair situation to me.


----------



## glamazon386 (Sep 29, 2009)

DarkVictory said:


> Looks like a scab hair situation to me.



 Y'all ain't right!


----------



## Stiletto_Diva (Sep 29, 2009)

I think to see NATURAL 4b hair IRL is uncommon. Before I came to the boards I thought all black people had 4b hair and maybe a few had 4a. 

When I first joined I was obsessed with finding my hair twin and my hair type. Before long I just gave up with the hair typing because my hair falls in between 4a and 4b. Most of the curls dont clump together, but they do have a curl pattern. You also can't see the curl pattern from a distance. It's all so very confusing.


----------



## prettyw/pink (Sep 29, 2009)

I am new to the board.  So I have know idea .  I am relaxed, so I don't know what I should consider myself.


----------



## Desarae (Sep 29, 2009)

prettyw/pink said:


> I am new to the board. So I have know idea . I am relaxed, so I don't know what I should consider myself.


 

You're relaxed, so you're 1a like me.


----------



## wild curls raquelle (Sep 29, 2009)

I think there are probably more 4a/b's than we realize. It all comes down to what the person sees or think they see. Also I think for some people saying they have 4b may put them in a category of "bad hair" and less defined. Obviously this doesn't apply to everyone but natural or not, to some degree everyone is concerned about society's standards. I do believe and have seen some people who are 4b/z's that simple will not admit they have 4b hair and will say they are 3c. On another note though, I understand the purpose of hair typing but people need to get over it. The big problem with hair typing is not the size of the curl, but rather the texture. People often think if your hair is this size curl it should be this texture which is definitely not the case. We as women, particularly women of color need to embrace all the variety we have been blessed with from our hair to our skin. It's just hair and it does not define you. When realize that we can get beyond the good hair/ bad hair.

As for myself I refuse to formally commit to a hair type. I know that for logistical reasons I'm between a 3c and 4a. But I prefer to call them wild curls. Simple because they do what they want and mother calls me wild child when the curls are out. I'm so over the hair typing because to some degree I do believe it covertly brings about the self-hatred amongst women of color. Some people say oh girl you got naps, you should comb your hair I could care less. Stop focusing on what your hair looks like and focus on the health of your hair. I rather have (I hate using this word) nappy hair that's healthy instead of damaged.


----------



## virtuenow (Sep 29, 2009)

glamazon386 said:


> This is a great breakdown but I've never seen a 4b that looked shiny or silky. 4b hair may feel soft to the touch but it usually doesn't look it - even when moisturized to the max. I'm just saying...  IME, most 4a's aren't even shiny. I understand the silky texture for 4a though. And some 3's are dull and not shiny. There's so many exceptions.


 
Okay,  I intended to be innovative and change the meanings of 4a & 4b as we see it.  But now I'm going back to my post to edit the categories to fit our standards so as to clear any confusion.  *Please see page 26 of this post!  *

*I separate the silky clumper/waving 4's from the dry matting 4's completey* (stay in your lane!)

It will be: 4a(1), 4a(2); 4b(1), 4b(2).  That way we can continue to use the same uniform system without adding a 4c and 4d.  we can pretty much keep the same meanings of 4a & 4b - but just add more definitions or characteristics to each category.


----------



## MamiWata (Sep 29, 2009)

I've always assumed most (as in 99.99%) black people have hair just like mine, 4B.  There are exceptions in my own family, but by far, most that I know or see are 4B.  

Anyways, I don't think I have any hair issues, just an obsession.  I am a 4B, with no ifs, ands, or buts about it, and I'm loving it.

Since deciding to go natural, I've honestly only really cared about other 4Bs.  I focus on them so I can know whose hair to idealize/envy.  There are definitely still other lovely heads I've noticed, but I want to see what I should expect throughout my hair journey and learn how to properly care for my hair from veterans with hair similar to my own.  

I don't see this obsession passing anytime soon.  At least, not until I fully surpass armpit length.  By then, I'll be done learned my own hair and love it best of all.  But for now, I really enjoy browsing galleries, videos, blogs, and forums for information and inspiration.


----------



## PerplexingComplex (Sep 29, 2009)

I chose 4a/b because I really don't know which one.  Doesn't really matter.

I think 4b hair is common among black people.


----------



## my-my (Sep 29, 2009)

I'm a proud member of the type 4 something club and I have been for a long time.
I have a routine that is working for me and my hair is thriving. Whether I'm actually a 4a, 4a/b, or a 4b isn't going to change how I treat my hair.


----------



## jupitermoon (Sep 29, 2009)

Good.  I've learned that type 4 is very diverse and that not only curl size is a factor in determining hair type but texture also.  Since my hair is more coarse, I am a type 4 despite curl size. So I am a part of the type 4 something club.  

Hair typing is confusing but interesting.


----------



## Nonie (Sep 29, 2009)

I guess then all we did was confuse matters coz you're no type 4 anything to me. You are clearly a 3 to me. But that's OK, it doesn't matter what I think.  You be whatever you want to be. 

Oh wait, were you cracking a joke?  I can be slow sometimes.


----------



## jupitermoon (Sep 29, 2009)

Nonie said:


> I guess then all we did was confuse matters coz you're no type 4 anything to me. You are clearly a 3 to me. But that's OK, it doesn't matter what I think. You be whatever you want to be.
> 
> Oh wait, were you cracking a joke?  I can be slow sometimes.


 

I'll be the first to admit that I'm kind of clueless, lol.

Hair typing is kind of subjective.

I guess we can all agree that type 1 hair is straight.


----------



## jennboo (Sep 29, 2009)

CelinaStarr said:


> Good. I've learned that type 4 is very diverse and that not only curl size is a factor in determining hair type but texture also. Since my hair is more coarse, I am a type 4 despite curl size. So I am a part of the type 4 something club.
> 
> Hair typing is confusing but interesting.


 
 Unless thats a braid-out you have going on there, if you are a type 4 then i'm a type 1, lol.


----------



## jupitermoon (Sep 29, 2009)

No, it's not a braid out.  *Jennboo*, my hair is coarse not silky.  I've noticed that many factor in hair texture along with curl size when determining hair type.  My coarse texture makes my hair more type 4.


----------



## claudia05 (Sep 29, 2009)

It's impossible to categorize every single unique hair type. There's a continuum and a lot be people fall in-between... 









CNapp-------4b-------4a/b---------4a----------4a/3c


----------



## skegeesmb (Sep 29, 2009)

4b's I find tend to be more common IRL than what I see on this hair board.  Now more pro natural boards will have more 4b's.  NP has a lot of great examples of woman that are 4b's.  I know my friend is a 4b.  Her hair doesn't have a lot of shine, and looks cottony, but it is very soft.  My other friend (my celestial twin) has 4b hair that is cottony but very coarse.  It is not soft like my other friend.

My hair is a 3-4 combination.  It's 4 on the top half, and 3 in the back.  It's very strange.


----------



## sylver2 (Sep 29, 2009)

CelinaStarr said:


> No, it's not a braid out.  *Jennboo*, my hair is coarse not silky.  I've noticed that many factor in hair texture along with curl size when determining hair type.  My coarse texture makes my hair more type 4.



omg!! so you are serious..lol
no you aren't a type 4...at all.
this thread is


----------



## claudia05 (Sep 29, 2009)

CelinaStarr said:


> No, it's not a braid out.  *Jennboo*, my hair is coarse not silky.  I've noticed that many factor in hair texture along with curl size when determining hair type.  My coarse texture makes my hair more type 4.


Coarseness has nothing to do with hair type. There are coarse 1's,2's, and 3's just as there are silky 4's. You look to be 3a/b...


----------



## Nonie (Sep 29, 2009)

Would suggesting that 4's are more like a compact/compressed spring unless stretched  out with some product and tend to grow out rather than down and shrink in a way that can create an afro that's round like a microphone:










...as seen above, while while 3's resemble a stretched-out spring in addition to having bigger coils and usually would form a floppy afro as seen below make matters worse?


----------



## ceebee3 (Sep 29, 2009)

I'm not even going to pretend I understand anymore.


----------



## Junebug D (Sep 29, 2009)

Coarseness has nothing to do with type. East Asians tend to have very coarse hair, yet they're pretty reliably type 1.


----------



## jupitermoon (Sep 29, 2009)

sylver2 said:


> *omg!! so you are serious..lol*
> no you aren't a type 4...at all.
> this thread is


 


:gotroasted:

lol, Well, I thought finally I had it.



claudia05 said:


> *Coarseness has nothing to do with hair type. There are coarse 1's,2's, and 3's just as there are silky 4's. *You look to be 3a/b...


 
Got it. 



ceebee3 said:


> I'm not even going to pretend I understand anymore.


 
I thought I had it, but just embarrassed myself.  Now, I think I've got now. 


Thanks for the pictures *Nonie*. I keep hearing type 3 hair being described as silky and that was throwing me off. My hair is definitely afro textured and coarse. It feels smooth but not silky. I guess I'm an afro textured type 3 and not a silky one.

The texture (not the curl size but the texture) of my hair is somewhere between both of these:













Not cottony or sillky. 

I guess, I'll go hide now, lol...


----------



## Nonie (Sep 29, 2009)

Yes coarseness is the thickness of the strand. I think OP got confused coz she was told her hair was kinkier that Priss Pot's (I think) and so if PP is 4A then she assumed she was too. It isn't. "Kinky" means tightly curled and OP's curls are not tight (like a compressed spring) but are rather loose. 

I am not sure but I also think type 3 hair tends to stretch when wet with water and shrink up as it dries. (OK so does 4). But lets assume both types had pressed hair void of product. If you wet them, 4 will shrink big time stick up in a puff that looks like an afro maybe clumping (A) or not (B). 

3 on the other hand will get wavy and of course so be shorter than when it was straight due to the waves but it will be stretched out by the water and hanging probably flat instead of being poofy and then puff up as it dries.


----------



## jupitermoon (Sep 29, 2009)

Nonie said:


> Yes coarseness is the thickness of the strand.* I* *think OP got confused coz she was told her hair was kinkier that Priss Pot's (I think) and so if PP is 4A then she assumed she was too.* It isn't. "Kinky" means tightly curled and OP's curls are not tight (like a compressed spring) but are rather loose.
> 
> *I am not sure but I also think type 3 hair tends to stretch when wet with water and shrink up as it dries.* (OK so does 4). But lets assume both types had pressed hair void of product. If you wet them, 4 will shrink big time stick up in a puff that looks like an afro maybe clumping (A) or not (B).
> 
> 3 on the other hand will get wavy and of course so be shorter than when it was straight due to the waves but it will be stretched out by the water and hanging probably flat instead of being poofy and then puff up as it dries.


 


Also people keep referring as type 3 hair as silky and shiny and my hair isn't silky and shiny.  I thought if *Priss Pot* is a type 4 I must definitely be a type 4 due to my coarser less shiny texture.  I got kinky mixed up with coarse, too. My hair is best referred to Afro textured coarse type 3.

My hair when wet straightens out and lies flat, but it gets bigger as it dries.

There's so much variation in human hair.  I see why it's so hard to type.


----------



## Skiggle (Sep 29, 2009)

Can I ask someone explain to me 4c
hair please..
TIA


----------



## sylver2 (Sep 29, 2009)

CelinaStarr said:


> Also people keep referring as type 3 hair as silky and shiny and my hair isn't silky and shiny. * I thought if Priss Pot is a type 4 I must definitely be a type 4 due to my coarser less shiny texture. * I got kinky mixed up with coarse, too. My hair is best referred to Afro textured coarse type 3.
> 
> My hair when wet straightens out and lies flat, but it gets bigger as it dries.
> 
> There's so much variation in human hair.  I see why it's so hard to type.



imho.. Priss pot is not really a type 4 either ..but thats my own opinion.


----------



## leleepop (Sep 29, 2009)

Skiggle said:


> Can I ask someone explain to me 4c
> hair please..
> TIA


Its not really a system for that yet.lol


----------



## Crackers Phinn (Sep 29, 2009)

Skiggle said:


> Can I ask someone explain to me 4c
> hair please..
> TIA



Good luck with that. Folks can barely explain 4a and 4b.


----------



## Crackers Phinn (Sep 29, 2009)

claudia05 said:


> It's impossible to categorize every single unique hair type. There's a continuum and a lot be people fall in-between...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Four years ago when I hit the hair boards, that CNapp caption used to represent the 4b category, but I see it's been jacked.


----------



## Nonie (Sep 29, 2009)

Crackers Phinn said:


> Four years ago when I hit the hair boards, that CNapp caption used to represent the 4b category, but I see it's been jacked.



 I'm still of that line of thought. That CNapp rep is just 4B with lots of hair all shrunken and compacted like my puff here:


----------



## DivaD04 (Sep 29, 2009)

OP, i honestly think it depends on the neighborhood(s). my enviroment, so and so forth. ALOT of girls are wearing relaxers so the likelihood of me to come across a natural are slim to none unless you're of mixed race, who more than likely will wear their natural 4a, 3a/b/c hair. and i think no matter where i go 1a-c dominates the hair typing charts. 
but as for me, i'm 4b. but i look 4c(very frizzy all over especially when dr) but if one was to losely, when wet, they'd find 4a (actual curls but small ones for the 4b tribe) and alot of 4ab when my hair dries. but my hair is so frizzy one would automatically assume i'm just another 4bc or 4c head of hair.


----------



## skegeesmb (Sep 29, 2009)

Nonie said:


> I'm still of that line of thought. That CNapp rep is just 4B with lots of hair all shrunken and compacted like my puff here:



This is what I thought type 4-b hair was.  My friends both have it, one has a satiny soft texture while the other friend is more coarse.


----------



## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Sep 30, 2009)

Yall still talking about this?  Yall ever sleep around these parts?    I have come to the decision that my hair type is "universoul"   I am no longer claiming ANY number.


----------



## Nonie (Sep 30, 2009)

sylver2 said:


> imho.. Priss pot is not really a type 4 either ..but thats my own opinion.



You know what, you guys are right. I thought the pic in the thread (her siggy I think) was shingled hair but I was looking at her album in her profile and I think her hair looks a lot like Yvette Nicole Brown's hair. 








So I'd say she was 3C or at least 3C/4A.

Sorry Priss Pot when Team 4-Something breaks into this song when you're at one of their meetings, you'll know why. 

_One of these heads is not like the others
One of these heads just doesn't belong
Can you tell which head is not like the others
By the time we finish our song?_


----------



## msa (Sep 30, 2009)

Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> Yall still talking about this?  Yall ever sleep around these parts?    I have come to the decision that my hair type is "universoul"   I am no longer claiming ANY number.




You didn't say it right. It's universouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuullllllllll.


----------



## claudia05 (Sep 30, 2009)

Crackers Phinn said:


> Four years ago when I hit the hair boards, that CNapp caption used to represent the 4b category, but I see it's been jacked.


It was . But I thought it best represented that cottony undefined mass people described CNapp hair as being...


----------



## Priss Pot (Sep 30, 2009)

Nonie, this is totally OT, but I remember that siggy you had some time ago.  With the little afro cartoon picture's growth progress.  Actually, I dunno if it was in your siggy or if it was an actual post you made.  But it was so cute and funny.


----------



## Anew (Sep 30, 2009)

claudia05 said:


> It's impossible to categorize every single unique hair type. There's a continuum and a lot be people fall in-between...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My hair looks exactly like the 4a/b pic...

I guess that's me, lol..


----------



## Anew (Sep 30, 2009)

Crackers Phinn said:


> Four years ago when I hit the hair boards, that CNapp caption used to represent the 4b category, but I see it's been jacked.


 And that is what I initially thought 4b was too...


----------



## Nonie (Sep 30, 2009)

Priss Pot said:


> Nonie, this is totally OT, but I remember that siggy you had some time ago.  With the little afro cartoon picture's growth progress.  Actually, I dunno if it was in your siggy or if it was an actual post you made.  But it was so cute and funny.



Oh that was before I got my BC; I think I had a lot of splits ends too making my hair look frizzy so it's just as well that I went back to the old me:

Before









After 



​ 
Now I'm back to the original length and health.


----------



## AfroKink (Sep 30, 2009)

Sorry to have lead to your confusion OP. These comments were made way back on page 26...



Priss Pot said:


> It really shouldn't even be that hard, if you ask me. If your hair has type 1,2,3,4 characteristics, then you will just be that type. *My hair has kinky coily curly characteristics, so I am a type 4.* Pow!!! And there ya have it. Simple and straight to the point.







MissAlyssa said:


> But the thing is... *someone like the OP has kinky coily curly characteristics too and she considers herself a type 3! Her hair looks kinky than yours and yours looks silkier than hers.* Hair types are interesting


Then people started commented about how 'silkiness' have nothing to do with hair typing etc. But by the time I got back to the thread it was already page 30 something so I just left alone. Come to find out I've lead some people to be really confused. 

I was merely trying to point our the error in Priss Pot's thinking. She basically said that  since her hair had kinky, coily, curly characteristics, she is a type 4. But that isn't so, because the OP had kinky, coily, curly characteristics and she is a type 3 PLUS her hair appears even more kinky and afro textured!



sylver2 said:


> imho.. Priss pot is not really a type 4 either ..but thats my own opinion.



Thats what I was trying to say without saying it. Both type 3 and type 4 can have kinky, coily, curly characteristics so that cannot be the basis for differentiation. 

Sorry about that peoples


----------



## Anew (Sep 30, 2009)

Question and I hope I don't annoy anyone, lol..

But does all Type 4 hair have coils? Whether they're tiny or large or barely noticeable?


----------



## Nonie (Sep 30, 2009)

Anew said:


> Question and I hope I don't annoy anyone, lol..
> 
> *But does all Type 4 hair have coils*? Whether they're tiny or large or barely noticeable?



My stand is yes, it does. Manipulation, heat damage, type of products, unmoisturized hair (and I don't mean hair without products. I mean hair that is unhealthily dry internally so it gets hard), etc can make the hair look different but in its most natural, healthy and normal state it is has a curls/coils.


----------



## skegeesmb (Sep 30, 2009)

Anew said:


> Question and I hope I don't annoy anyone, lol..
> 
> But does all Type 4 hair have coils? Whether they're tiny or large or barely noticeable?




I think all type 4 hair has some kind of coils.  I think in 4a you can see them a bit more, and it is more more noticeable if they use product.  In 4b's you have to be really up close to see the curl/coil.  I would post my friends, but they would kill me.


----------



## sowhut (Oct 1, 2009)

msa said:


> Exactly. You are def "4b". But folks are talking about "4b" doesn't have any coils...it has no pattern whatsoever*. And in that case nobody is 4b except for the 1a's. *
> 
> Like I said, I'm sticking with type 4...matter of fact I might just go back to calling it nappy. Forget all this extra stuff.


 

 The bolded literally had me lol-ing


----------



## whitedaisez (Oct 1, 2009)

DesiRae said:


> I disagree with these statements.
> 
> I claim 4b. My strands are not zig zag. They have a really tight curl. I was under the impression the difference between 4a and 4b is whether the curls clump together or not. Mine do not. I am relaxed now but was natural long enough to get to know my texture.
> 
> ...



If you have a curl pattern, u are NOT 4B. The tightest curl ever is a 4a. A 4b has NO curl pattern, only zig zag. I see ur hair has a curl pattern, an almost loose one too. You are far from 4b. You are barely a 4a. 
Sera's hair is a classic example of a REAL 4B hair.

http://public.fotki.com/Sera252/all...natu/5-years--beyond/startingonanotherse.html

Look closely at her hair strands on her shoulders, dey are NOT curls or coils, jes little zig zag patterns. This type of hair is very rare. It is the ONLY REAL 4B type. Anything else is a mixture or combination of 4a.


----------



## Neith (Oct 1, 2009)

whitedaisez said:


> If you have a curl pattern, u are NOT 4B. The tightest curl ever is a 4a. A 4b has NO curl pattern, only zig zag. I see ur hair has a curl pattern, an almost loose one too. You are far from 4b. You are barely a 4a.
> Sera's hair is a classic example of a REAL 4B hair.
> 
> http://public.fotki.com/Sera252/all...natu/5-years--beyond/startingonanotherse.html
> ...



4b hair has to be coily.  Hair comes in straight, wavy, curly, and kinky/nappy...  all type 4 hair is kinky/nappy/coily.  Type _*4*_b

That doesn't mean that it has a defined curl pattern, but what makes it kinky/nappy is the coils/kinks in the texture.  

Hair devoid of any curl/coil/wave/kink is straight.

There is plenty of texture in her hair.

Now... I'm off to stalk her fotki.


----------



## Nonie (Oct 1, 2009)

whitedaisez said:


> If you have a curl pattern, u are NOT 4B. The tightest curl ever is a 4a. *A 4b has NO curl pattern, only zig zag.* *I see ur hair has a curl pattern, an almost loose one too. You are far from 4b. You are barely a 4a. *
> Sera's hair is a classic example of a REAL 4B hair.
> 
> http://public.fotki.com/Sera252/all...natu/5-years--beyond/startingonanotherse.html
> ...



You obviously have not been in my class.  

Sera's hair has no curls because it's manipulated. It looks like my hair when it's manipulated. DesiRae is definitely in Team 4-something in my book.  (OT, I love love love the natural sheen in her hair and how dark it is. Desi, can you please BC your hair back to that, pretty please? And then don't grow it any longer than that. Then call me coz I think I just fell in love.   BTW, OP, you can see how much DesiRae's hair reflects light compared to mine yet she's still 4-Something. Showing that shiny/silky and dull/rough looking could all be within the same group.)


----------



## Kurlee (Oct 1, 2009)

whitedaisez said:


> If you have a curl pattern, u are NOT 4B. The tightest curl ever is a 4a. A 4b has NO curl pattern, only zig zag. I see ur hair has a curl pattern, an almost loose one too. You are far from 4b. You are barely a 4a.
> Sera's hair is a classic example of a REAL 4B hair.
> 
> http://public.fotki.com/Sera252/all...natu/5-years--beyond/startingonanotherse.html
> ...


totally agree with everything you said.This girls hair is exactly the 4b I was describing and it's a hair type that is very uncommon. I have seen hair like this IRL maybe once or twice. Even in the pictures of her hair wet and _unmanipulated_ there is no curl pattern or coils. Just kinks.  I think it would just be easiest to stick with 4a being the smallest curls and coils regardless of silkiness,shine or thickeness and the end of curls, while 4b moves into 'kinks' like the lady above.  All the other stuff is just overcomplicating something that wasn't even complicated. Her hair is so thick and healthy .


----------



## Nonie (Oct 1, 2009)

Kurlee, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think the reason I'm so adamant about what type 4b hair looks like is because I have that hair. My hair can look like Sera's if I follow the exact regimen she does. My hair looked like that until 2004 and while it wasn't long coz I didn't know how to handle it with care, it had "no pattern" which is why I knew w/o question that I was 4b when I saw the description. If you search the forum 2003, you will not see a post of me asking what my type was, coz that "no pattern" description was so clear to me the first time I came across types. I know it coz I've been natural 3/4 of my life. 

When I joined the forum, my natural idols were people with hair like that. Mufasa, Daughter...were among my first idols coz they were two of the small handful of natural ladies here that had long hair of my texture (yes back then it was a case of spot the natural on LHCF; relaxed ladies were like 90-sth% of the members here. Or maybe the percentage was more, but to me hair like that I grew around (type 4-something hair) was natural hair and there was not a lot of it around LHCF that was not relaxed in 2003.)

Now I will tell you this, when my hair gets to Sera's length, you may never ever see it coily and it's not because it doesn't have coils. It's because I'd be darn out of my mind to risk letting that awesome mane tangle and therefore risk damaging it by allowing it to shrink. Heck I have only a short shrub of hair but do you see me doing WNGs? It's not just coz they won't show; heck I could do a chunky fro just for the heck of it because it's not like I need anyone to see my coils, but then who has to deal with it later?  Nah suh! I love to comb my hair out not just coz I think afros are flyyy, but also because keeping my strands separated makes my hair easy to deal with. It's also why I keep my hair braided or twisted, not coz I couldn't show off some bomb loose hairdos, but I'm trying to keep my sanity and hair, thank you very much. If you watched my YT undoing twists, you get an idea of how I deal with my hair. I make every effort to separate strands. My hair is still short so while my friend seems to think that takes forever, it doesn't coz my hair is not long. And also it's not overwhelming coz I work on one skinny section at a time. If I had my hair out, all of it out, that'd not be going on here. I'd be wearing it stretched all the time. There'd be no hint of a coil in it. 

Another thing, my hair seems to shrink more now than when it was shorter so again, I'd be crazy to keep allowing shrinkage when it gets to Sera's length. Mwedzi's hair is almost as long as Sera's and she's the only daredevil I know who's willing to do my crazy experiments of not manipulating her hair except to keep strands separated with fingers when CWing and while it's drying so that it returns to its resting phase ie coil phase. 

(Oh before I forget: about shrinkage without a coil in sight, been there.  This was 2003. My hair was about 9-11 inches or maybe shorter coz I'd done a big trim due to thin ends the same month and I'm not sure which came first. But my hair was definitely not shorter than 6 inches. These pics taken around that time show you what my hair was like stretched before and after the trim. I was in braids and redoing them by undoing a braid and trimming the hair. The pics of my shrunken hair were taken when I was getting ready to put braids back in after having been in braids for over a year. That's why I don't know the chronological order coz I live in braids. The trim pics may have been during the first set of braids before the shrunken pic or during the second set after the shrunken pic.)

Anyway, I'ma give my fingers a rest and your eyes a break. Just wanted to throw in my two cents (OK maybe it was more like a Benjamin). Don't know why coz we all decided our hair is 4-something anyway.


----------



## Neith (Oct 1, 2009)

Just to complicate things further... lol

Manipulation can totally change the appearance your texture 

Especially with kinky/nappy hair.  I'm so happy to have it (no offense to anyone).  They don't say that it's the most versatile hair type for nothing.  I find that my hair is mallable... I can go kinky, kinky-straight, coily, wavy, and curly.  All with some lustrasilk and coconut oil and absolutely no heat.  

Here is my hair today (dry combed out in small sections, added coconut oil):


----------



## Daughter (Oct 1, 2009)

Nonie said:


> Would suggesting that 4's are more like a compact/compressed spring unless stretched  out with some product and tend to grow out rather than down and shrink in a way that can create an afro that's round like a microphone:
> 
> ...as seen above, while while 3's resemble a stretched-out spring in addition to having bigger coils and usually would form a floppy afro as seen below make matters worse?



Even then there are exceptions to that rule. I cannot get a round proper from for love nor money, yet my cousins who have distinctly type 3 hair managed to get Angela Davis lookin' fros back in the 70s. Our hair is so diverse!


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## Nonie (Oct 1, 2009)

Daughter said:


> Even then there are exceptions to that rule. I cannot get a round proper from for love nor money, yet my cousins who have distinctly type 3 hair managed to get Angela Davis lookin' fros back in the 70s. Our hair is so diverse!



So how hair behaves I guess cannot be used to describe what type it is. 

Maybe hair is like a light spectrum: Hard to tell where one type ends and another begins, since they seem to blend into each other going from one extreme to the other. 




.


----------



## whitedaisez (Oct 1, 2009)

Neith said:


> 4b hair has to be coily.  Hair comes in straight, wavy, curly, and kinky/nappy...  all type 4 hair is kinky/nappy/coily.  Type _*4*_b


Kinky/nappy is not even a hair shape, so has little to do with hair typing.



> That doesn't mean that it has a defined curl pattern, but what makes it kinky/nappy is the coils/kinks in the texture.


Please RE-read my comment again. I said, Sera has "NO curl pattern". To have a curl _pattern_, your hair must first have curls, then they must be DEFINED, hence the pattern. 4Bs like Sera have neither curls nor pattern, therefore like I said earlier, they have NO CURL PATTERN.


> Hair devoid of any curl/coil/wave/kink is straight.


You are correct BUT, 4Bs have zig-zag hair that is not defined. Therefore their hair is NOT straight.


> There is plenty of texture in her hair.[/COLOR]


I never said she doesn't have texture. I said, like a classic 4b, she has "NO curl pattern" (NO CURL, NO PATTERN)


----------



## whitedaisez (Oct 1, 2009)

Nonie said:


> You obviously have not been in my class.
> 
> Sera's hair has no curls because it's manipulated. It looks like my hair when it's manipulated. DesiRae is definitely in Team 4-something in my book.  (OT, I love love love the natural sheen in her hair and how dark it is. Desi, can you please BC your hair back to that, pretty please? And then don't grow it any longer than that. Then call me coz I think I just fell in love.   BTW, OP, you can see how much DesiRae's hair reflects light compared to mine yet she's still 4-Something. Showing that shiny/silky and dull/rough looking could all be within the same group.)



Am sorry, I didn't plan on attending any "classes" when I came to this thread. Sera's hair was barely manipulated on that page, she was getting ready to put her hair in twists. Look at all her other pics, she has no curls anywhere. When her hair is manipulated, it looks almost straight but stringly.


----------



## Neith (Oct 1, 2009)

whitedaisez said:


> Kinky/nappy is not even a hair shape, so has little to do with hair typing.
> 
> 
> Please RE-read my comment again. I said, Sera has "NO curl pattern". To have a curl _pattern_, your hair must first have curls, then they must be DEFINED, hence the pattern. 4Bs like Sera have neither curls nor pattern, therefore like I said earlier, they have NO CURL PATTERN.
> ...



Kinky - tightly coiled: full of tight coils

Right in the dictionary.  http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/kinky.html

Nappy is more of a slang word that is VERY widely used.  I know you've seen it  used around here especially.  



If type 4a has coils, and 4b doesn't... why are they in the same category?  They ARE related, of course.  Type 4 hair = coils  Defined or not.


If you don't have coils or kinks, you don't have type 4 hair.  The presence of coils/kinks is what MAKES your hair type 4.  I think Sera has very kinky hair.

"Curl pattern" doesn't always mean ringlets.  

The "pattern" may be irregular, but it's what makes the texture.  The fact is, the hair IS twisting and turning somewhere... even if it doesn't make a perfect coil.     

Wavy hair doesn't make a perfect curl either, but *don't we call type 2 a curl pattern*?  It may not be technically right, but I usually take it as a given that people use the terms differently depending on what you're talking about.

4b usually is tiny, kinky coils.  Just because people can't define them doesn't mean they aren't there.  Some people have highly kinky hair that doesn't readily form a coil.  Some type 4 hair isn't very kinky.  There is a lot of variety, but it's all under TYPE 4 for a reason.  Imo.

This thread explains kinky coils vs smooth coils:

http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=387886


ETA:

Just because I disagree with you or quote you doesn't mean I have a problem with you on a personal level.  Just in case. lol


----------



## Kurlee (Oct 2, 2009)

Neith said:


> Kinky - tightly coiled: full of tight coils
> 
> Right in the dictionary.  http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/kinky.html
> 
> ...


so if this line of reasoning is true, what type of hair does Sera have?


----------



## Neith (Oct 2, 2009)

Kurlee said:


> so if this line of reasoning is true, what type of hair does Sera have?



Type 4.  4b probably.

Here is a pic of her hair wet:

http://public.fotki.com/Sera252/all_about_hair/months_14-24/14th_month/picture_10.html

Funny... I think see some coils there on the ends. (Don't shoot me, y'all)


----------



## Nonie (Oct 2, 2009)

Sera has the type of hair that I have. 4B. It does have definition. If Sera were to take a section of her hair (and treat it like I treat mine): shampoo or clarify, then apply conditioner and comb it right through. Then DC (no combs allowed from this point on) with heat (I'd even suggest using Roux Porosity Control). Then rinse again only fingers allowed to separate strands--involves stretching them to separate. Then ACV rinse using a very dilute solution of ACV. And made this her regimen, I dare say she'd see curls. No product as a leave-in necessary.

Because she's manipulated her hair a lot to get where it is (and manipulation means keeping it stretched in braids or banding, rarely letting it shrink to its maximum shrinkage), she may have to do this again. I can bet my bottom dollar that her hair will coil up. Some may call it random coiling but it will coil up. No one's hair grows out of her head in zigzags.  NOBODY. 

To show you just what a difference manipulation can make especially if done for so long, look at her earlier photos and tell me if her puff in these photos doesn't look coily:

http://public.fotki.com/Sera252/all_about_hair/months_14-24/14th_month/picture_039_jpg2.html

http://public.fotki.com/Sera252/all_about_hair/months_14-24/14th_month/picture_044.html

In the photo below, look at the center of her puff, not the part that is obviously wavy from whatever style she wore before (I've got a pic with those waves too but I mean the part with no waves). You're telling me you don't see coils?
http://public.fotki.com/Sera252/all_about_hair/months_14-24/15th_month/month15cont_009.html

The ends of her twist form the coils/clumps that anyone with coily hair knows only too well. Hard to see it on the twists to our right but there's no mistaking them on the twists to our left:
http://public.fotki.com/Sera252/all_about_hair/months_14-24/15th_month/month15cont_081.html

As I said, it is usually only only when you allow your hair to shrink, that you will see the coils:
http://public.fotki.com/Sera252/all_about_hair/months_14-24/16th_month/end_of_month_16_070.html

If you still don't see coils in this puff, then I guess circular shapes are all in the eye of the beholder:
http://public.fotki.com/Sera252/all_about_hair/months_14-24/19th_month/19th_monthcontd5_022b.html
The little circular shapes 

Whitedaisez, I beg your pardon but I wasn't saying about "missing my class" to be rude. I guess I just have a weird sense of humor or you're rather touchy.  

BTW, Sera's coils are way larger than mine. If you look at that last pic whose link I gave (this one) and compare it with the one below (same size pic), you can clearly see that while her coils are visible, mine look just like a gray mist. No texture coily/curly texture visible. Her hair reminds me of my 4A phony puff in that pic. Maybe she's 4 a/b. She has larger coils than my teeny ones but is still 4-sth: 





BTW, I am not talking about stuff I do not know. My mom's hair appeared to have no pattern when she came to see me:





But after I'd tossed out her regimen and given her mine, her hair formed cute little circles that would make this perfect microphone shape:





Oh, and I found another photo of my hair after being manipulated in braids showing what appears to be "no pattern" (see attachment).


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## Rocky91 (Oct 2, 2009)

whoa-ladies up in this piece going hard. all we need is a compilation-and we'll have ourselves a doctoral thesis.
don't mind me-i'm just acting a fool at two in the morning when i should be sleeping. 
and don't misinterpret my clowning-it's definitely an interesting subject, this hair typing thing...


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## jupitermoon (Oct 2, 2009)

Rocky91 said:


> whoa-ladies up in this piece going hard. *all we need is a compilation-and we'll have ourselves a doctoral thesis.*
> don't mind me-i'm just acting a fool at two in the morning when i should be sleeping.
> and don't misinterpret my clowning-it's definitely an interesting subject, this hair typing thing...


 

Yes.  The ladies are breaking the hair typing thing down in this thread.    I am just sitting back reading  all of these posts.  They are all interesting and I've learned a lot about the variations in human hair from this thread.   I thank everyone for their contributions to this thread.


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## MizzBrit (Oct 2, 2009)

interesting!


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## whitedaisez (Oct 2, 2009)

Nonie said:


> Whitedaisez, I beg your pardon but I wasn't saying about "missing my class" to be rude. I guess I just have a weird sense of humor or you're rather touchy.



Well am sorry but ur "weird" sense of humor came off arrogant to me. PLEASE use them around those you actually know.

You're making this harder than it needs to be. Maybe your eyes are just different (maybe too meticulous) but from what "I" see, Sera has NO curls/coils in any of her pictures posted. I dunno how de heck a smooth curl vs kinky curl applies to this but ACCORDING to ANDRE, 4B strands are "Z-like" (not smoooth or rough or kinky CURLS/COILS).

Sera's Z-like shaped strands become more visible when her hair is drenched but not when it is dry. Nonetheless, no curls/coils appear.
In fact, none of the pics you posted manipulated or not, have any curls or patterns.
As far as am concerned this model is not very insightful so i wont enter into an argumentative brawl with you over who has clear vision or who is hallucinating. Maybe you can take it up with the person who established the model and interrogate them on kinky vs smooth; curl vs coil; wet vs dry; etc etc etc....
Toodles.


----------



## Nonie (Oct 2, 2009)

whitedaisez said:


> Well am sorry but ur "weird" sense of humor came off arrogant to me. PLEASE use them around those you actually know.
> 
> You're making this harder than it needs to be. Maybe your eyes are just different (maybe too meticulous) but from what "I" see, Sera has NO curls/coils in any of her pictures posted. I dunno how de heck a smooth curl vs kinky curl applies to this but ACCORDING to ANDRE, 4B strands are "Z-like" (not smoooth or rough or kinky CURLS/COILS).
> 
> ...



OK, so none of the pics I posted have curls? Do you mean even in my very own puff? Or were you just referring to Sera's? And if you do not see curls in Sera's puff, did you see them in the phony puff I claimed was 4A or in the pic I posted beside it earlier in this thread?


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## Daughter (Oct 2, 2009)

whitedaisez said:


> Kinky/nappy is not even a hair shape, so has little to do with hair typing.
> 
> 
> Please RE-read my comment again. I said, Sera has "NO curl pattern". To have a curl _pattern_, your hair must first have curls, then they must be DEFINED, hence the pattern. 4Bs like Sera have neither curls nor pattern, therefore like I said earlier, they have NO CURL PATTERN.
> ...



Are curl pattern and curl definition the same things? I think that's where we're all getting our wires crossed. My 4b hair most definitely has curls, tiny, random shaped (as opposed to uniform) curls and coils...


----------



## Sammie7 (Oct 2, 2009)

Ok, I can't hold my tongue anymore. LOL I think Sera is my hair twin or at least cousin, because it acts just like my hair. Have you all forgotten that Sera is on Youtube now? Here is a video that shows her coils, very clearly. Mind, that her hair is wet, BUT the curl pattern is definitely there.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwlWALUgQLI They are kind of fuzzy, just like mine, but they are there.  HTH


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## loulou82 (Oct 2, 2009)

Sammie7 said:


> Ok, I can't hold my tongue anymore. LOL I think Sera is my hair twin or at least cousin, because it acts just like my hair. Have you all forgotten that Sera is on Youtube now? Here is a video that shows her coils, very clearly. Mind, that her hair is wet, BUT the curl pattern is definitely there.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwlWALUgQLI They are kind of fuzzy, just like mine, but they are there.  HTH



Thanks for posting! Her hair is lovely and I see the coil pattern.  Particularly at the 4:50 minute mark to the end of the video.


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## Neith (Oct 2, 2009)

whitedaisez said:


> Well am sorry but ur "weird" sense of humor came off arrogant to me. PLEASE use them around those you actually know.
> 
> You're making this harder than it needs to be. Maybe your eyes are just different (maybe too meticulous) but from what "I" see, Sera has NO curls/coils in any of her pictures posted. I dunno how de heck a smooth curl vs kinky curl applies to this but *ACCORDING to ANDRE, 4B strands are "Z-like" (not smoooth or rough or kinky CURLS/COILS)*.
> 
> ...



Then why would Andre put it into TYPE 4?  If it doesn't have the same rough shape as 4a?    

I dunno what else to tell you.  *Other people see the coils in Sera's hair.  *I'm not blind.

Everyone else is wrong, right?   Everyone else is hallucinating?  

Maybe YOU like to participate in argumentative brawls, but I don't.   No one here DID anything to you.  Lawd have mercy   SO hostile. 

Why can't we just be ADULTS and have a CIVIL discussion? 

Anyways, I forigive you.  Should have read your siggy first.


----------



## Nonie (Oct 2, 2009)

Daughter said:


> Are curl pattern and curl definition the same things? I think that's where we're all getting our wires crossed. My 4b hair most definitely has curls, tiny, random shaped (as opposed to uniform) curls and coils...



To me they are the same thing, but what I found out is that to a lot of people "definition" means "clumping". I didn't know this for a long time so when people would ask "What do you use to get coil definition?" I'd be there saying "S Curl" thinking they are using the word define as in "to make clear" which to me meant change the hair from looking shapeless to being coily. And then I'd post pics of a combed-out afro  probably making those who understood it differently go  coz they were looking for something like KCCC and Knot Today that actually causes clumping and gives a shingled look.


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## anon123 (Oct 2, 2009)

Neith said:


> Then why would Andre put it into TYPE 4?  If it doesn't have the same rough shape as 4a?



Do you think there is a definite hard line between type 3 and 4?

I was detangling my hair today and noting the difference between my nape and the rest of my hair.  I can't believe that tiny bit of texture difference makes such a noticeable difference in my hair.  The nape has ever so slightly bigger curls.  The knots are bigger in my nape, meaning they include more hairs, but they came apart more easily.  It's like the strands themselves are silkier. It just made we realize that it's hard for us to tell about someone's hair from just looking at pics, because I doubt anyone looking at my hair would be able to discern that difference just from looking at pictures of my hair.


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## andromeda (Oct 2, 2009)

I'm amazed by her hair...


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## Neith (Oct 2, 2009)

mwedzi said:


> Do you think there is a definite hard line between type 3 and 4?
> 
> I was detangling my hair today and noting the difference between my nape and the rest of my hair.  I can't believe that tiny bit of texture difference makes such a noticeable difference in my hair.  The nape has ever so slightly bigger curls.  The knots are bigger in my nape, meaning they include more hairs, but they came apart more easily.  It's like the strands themselves are silkier. It just made we realize that it's hard for us to tell about someone's hair from just looking at pics, because I doubt anyone looking at my hair would be able to discern that difference just from looking at pictures of my hair.



It meshes at some point.  

Before I BC'd I thought my nape might be 3C.  Then after I BC'd I figured that it was just my fine-normal section, not a different hairtype.  I dunno.    

I took a bunch of pics of my hair yesterday and got to the spots back there that I normally can't see (conditioner on dry hair pic).  So yeah, there is overlap and people in between. 

It's true... slight differences make a whole new head of hair.   and one picture doesn't always tell the whole story.


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## Neith (Oct 2, 2009)

rosa praeclara said:


> View attachment 43660
> I'm amazed by her hair...




Soooooo pretty!  My gosh!


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## Kurlee (Oct 2, 2009)

Neith said:


> Then why would Andre put it into TYPE 4?  If it doesn't have the same rough shape as 4a?
> 
> I dunno what else to tell you.  *Other people see the coils in Sera's hair.  *I'm not blind.
> 
> ...


I don't think there will ever be a general consensus because perception is everything and everyone is seeing different things and defining them differently.  Everyone is going to a have a hair texture/pattern, but just because it's not straight, doesn't mean it's automatically curly. Someone spoke about wavy hair. Yes the pattern may be irregular but none the less it is AN S pattern that you see.  3's make a tighter S and then 4a makes the tightest S and lastly 4b with the Z.  

In the video and in the pics just posted, I see the Z shaped pattern that Andre described. Coils are like o's stack on top of each other like a pen spring. She doesn't have that. She has a zig zag but no hair actually curling like a telephone cord. Even with products her hair would never make S shapes. That is the distinction, IMO, between 4a and 4b. 4a is the teeny tiny coils and curls like glamazon (though i see a little 3c in her hair too) but the have a rounded S shape to them.  The zig zags like sera are 4b. Shine, sheen, silk, etc are not the determining factors.  Smallest group of curls = 4a and then 4b = zig zaggish, cotton candyish hair, no curls, or o's just zig zag.

But judging by this thread, it will be impossible for there to be a general consensus across the board. Maybe to make it simpler and just say type 4. No one can argue that really?


----------



## NerdSauce (Oct 2, 2009)

I find it really annoying when people say things like 4b doesn't exist or zig zags can't exist (so.. they're not in your head. mmks. who knows beyond that?) but at the end of the day I DON'T have 4b hair and I'm taking Nonie's and Mwedzi's and all those other people's word for it.

Also, 4-something ftw. I settled on that like, 25 pages ago. :]


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## Nonie (Oct 2, 2009)

Kurlee, what does a coil look like side view when stretched? Zigzag. Sera's hair is stretched with product. If she had a product that wasn't as heavy as that (say water) and she let her hair dry undisturbed, I can bet my bottom dollar it'd contract to form a coily shape. It's no different from this coil/spring below






I have 4B hair and while it normally doesn't appear to have a uniform pattern due to manipulation, when I let it "rest" and take up its undisturbed state, it forms coils. When you pull on those coils, they look zigzag as seen on the strands at the top of the pic below but when  you release them they contract back to a spring at rest shape as seen in the strands toward the bottom of the pic:


----------



## Neith (Oct 2, 2009)

Kurlee said:


> I don't think there will ever be a general consensus because perception is everything and everyone is seeing different things and defining them differently.*  Everyone is going to a have a hair texture/pattern, but just because it's not straight, doesn't mean it's automatically curly. Someone spoke about wavy hair. Yes the pattern may be irregular but none the less it is AN S pattern that you see.  *3's make a tighter S and then 4a makes the tightest S and lastly 4b with the Z.
> 
> In the video and in the pics just posted, I see the Z shaped pattern that Andre described. Coils are like o's stack on top of each other like a pen spring. She doesn't have that. She has a zig zag but no hair actually curling like a telephone cord. Even with products her hair would never make S shapes. That is the distinction, IMO, between 4a and 4b. 4a is the teeny tiny coils and curls like glamazon (though i see a little 3c in her hair too) but the have a rounded S shape to them.  The zig zags like sera are 4b. Shine, sheen, silk, etc are not the determining factors.  Smallest group of curls = 4a and then 4b = zig zaggish, cotton candyish hair, no curls, or o's just zig zag.
> 
> But judging by this thread, it will be impossible for there to be a general consensus across the board. Maybe to make it simpler and just say type 4. No one can argue that really?



To the bolded - I said all of that and brought up wavy hair in this thread 

I think that 4b hair can be coils, but it can also have irregular kinks throughout the coils... which prevent the coil from fully forming.  It's an irregular "curl pattern"

but then I looked at more of Sera's pics and started seeing a pattern in there.  Like I said, I think she has very kinky coils.

You see zigzags, I see stretched out/manipulated coils in that video.  My hair looks similar with henna put on it.  You can sorta see it with just conditioner too.






See that "z" pattern?  Stretched out coils.







Not saying that we have the same type of hair, but there are similarities.  Her hair also looks to be a regular "curl pattern" in the way that it forms clumps.

Even though some hair has too many "kinks" to form perfect coils on its own, the "base shape" of type 4 hair is coily.   
*
Hair only comes in varying degrees of waves, curls and coils or straight. *

There is no other shape that I'm aware of.  It either makes rounded waves and loops or it's straight.  A wave is a stretched out curl.  "z" pattern is a stretched out coil imo.

Sorry for posting pictures left and right, but visual aides help.  lol

Now... I'm officially tired of hairtypes.    I'm nearing the point where I say  to hell with it all.  but I know one day it will hook me in again.  Vicious cycle.


----------



## Nonie (Oct 2, 2009)

Neith said:


> *Sorry for posting pictures left and right, but visual aides help.  lol*



Don't be sorry. A picture speaks a thousand words and I personally love visuals, so thank you.


----------



## winnettag (Oct 2, 2009)

I have a headache.


----------



## anon123 (Oct 2, 2009)

Neith said:


> *
> Hair only comes in varying degrees of waves, curls and coils or straight. *



Do you think it might be the case that these aren't even separate categories but blend into each other?  I mean, what is the real difference between and curl and coil?  Maybe a curl and a wave I can see.  Do waves make a 360?  Maybe not, but both curls and coils do, right?  I mean, if the difference between curl and coil is something other than size, meaning it varies on some other parameter, might we also expect to find big coils and tiny curls?  But when people contrast "curl" and "coil", they generally think of tiny coils and bigger curls.


----------



## Neith (Oct 2, 2009)

mwedzi said:


> Do you think it might be the case that these aren't even separate categories but blend into each other?  I mean, what is the real difference between and curl and coil?  Maybe a curl and a wave I can see.  Do waves make a 360?  Maybe not, but both curls and coils do, right?  I mean, if the difference between curl and coil is something other than size, meaning it varies on some other parameter, might we also expect to find big coils and tiny curls?  But when people contrast "curl" and "coil", they generally think of tiny coils and bigger curls.



This is how I look at it:

Curl - O shaped, from pencil size to sidewalk chalk sized (or however big 3a curls are)
Wave - S shaped, elongated curl.  Basically a very loose curl.
Coil - Small to tiny curl.
Kink - A spot in the hair where it sharply turns a random, new direction.  Kinks can disrupt the ability of hair to form a perfect curl or coil on it's own. 

Coils have way more kinks than curls and waves.

My point is that hair follows rounded, curvy shapes if it's not straight.  No zigzags in the traditional sense of the word.  

Type 4 to me means coils (very small curls), with varying degrees of "kinkiness". 

ETA:  It's interesting that waves and curls are called "s" shaped and type 4 hair is called "z" shaped when it is stretched out.


----------



## Nonie (Oct 2, 2009)

mwedzi said:


> Do you think it might be the case that these aren't even separate categories but blend into each other?  I mean, what is the real difference between and curl and coil?  Maybe a curl and a wave I can see.  Do waves make a 360?  Maybe not, but both curls and coils do, right?  I mean, if the difference between curl and coil is something other than size, meaning it varies on some other parameter, might we also expect to find big coils and tiny curls?  But when people contrast "curl" and "coil", they generally think of tiny coils and bigger curls.



My understanding is that *curls = coils*, but on hair forums because tight curls don't show up unless one is very close, calling such hair "curly" seems odd hence the term "coily".

So when someone says his or her hair is coily on the forum, I never think large curls like 3's coz I've caught on, even though that hair does form a coil shape. But if they ended up showing me big curls, I'd stand corrected in my thinking and not think they were lying coz after all doesn't a coil look like a spiral which looks like curly hair?







However, if someone says his or her hair is curly, I honestly think of *all* curls, including the really tiny ones as seen in my hair, until I see the pic and then I get an idea of the size. It's not a matter of trying to be cute calling my hair "curly". It's what it is. When I magnified my _coils_, folks were telling me they liked the curls. And when I wear my hair out in a puff, non-hair forum members (usually non-black folks) always say they love the cute teeny curls in my hair when they get up close to see my "new" do--coz I'm usually in braids/twist otherwise. So a curl is anything that forms a shape like a coil or spring.

Another misunderstanding I have noticed is in the meaning of the word _kink_. *Kink* can mean an unwanted bend in something *that is usually straight* or a tight curl .



> Quick definitions (*kink*)
> *▸ noun:*  a sharp bend in a line produced when a line having a loop is pulled tight
> *▸ verb:*  form a curl, curve, or kink
> *▸ verb:*  curl tightly


​I think where the word loses people is that the idea of frizzy comes to mind when they hear the word kinky. (BTW, as much as people hate the word _nappy_, it means the very same thing as kinky and is a description of tight curls, not a word that means frizzy or unkempt. But I respect the pain it may carry for some and I don't expect everyone to be OK with it.)


----------



## AvaSpeaks (Oct 2, 2009)

msa said:


> I don't think they're uncommon, just not common on hairboards. Why?
> -4b's are most likely to be relaxed so you don't necessarily see them
> -in the real world their hair is considered the worst so I think if they are brainwashed by the community then they believe the bad stuff about their hair and aren't likely to be looking for haircare tips in the first place and are more worried about straightening it, styling it, or keeping it hidden.
> -hairboards like lhcf are the least supportive of that hair type (despite the lipservice to the contrary) so they are more likely to be on np or just lurk instead of participating.
> ...


 

Exactly! That's one of the reasons why I don't type my hair anymore. I don't think the typing system fits. I know it doesn't fit mine. 

The truth is, most AA women have the type of hair that back in the day people called "nappy". Period. If we didn't then relaxers wouldn't be the number hair care product for AA in this country and parts of Europe.

Regardless of what we are saying here on LHCF, Nap, and any other major board, the majority of sisters DO NOT have the looser curl-haired that people are saying is 3c or 4a. 

I mean if I was to type my hair, I would say it's 1a/2a/3c/4a. Now really, now what sense does that make


----------



## Kurlee (Oct 2, 2009)

Neith said:


>


 See the first pic to me is definitely curly and S shaped to me (4a). The second, not so much. I see no similarities in the nature of these heads except for the brown skin on the people it's growing from. With that said. Lawd...... I have a hair typing headache. Everyone is gonna see it, how they see it. I understand what you guys are getting at, but I just never thought the hair typing thing was ever complicated or hard to figure out. It's far from perfect and needs improvements, but I have yet to see a head that I couldn't judge what the hair type was, upon a first glance. With that said, I am waving the white flag!!!!!


----------



## Kurlee (Oct 2, 2009)

Nonie said:


>


Just wanted to say you have nice nails!


----------



## wavezncurlz (Oct 2, 2009)

@hair typing headache. Exactly!


----------



## BrownSkinQT (Oct 3, 2009)

ThickHair said:


> 4b is common but a lot of folks don't like to admit that they have 4b. So *they will search every inch of there head until they find a strand that isn't 4b, so they can claim that type.*
> 
> I love my nappy hair but some just are not in love with theirs.
> 
> ...


 

How fruggin funny!


----------



## that_1_grrrl (Oct 3, 2009)

Okay, out of everything in this thread, this makes the most sense to me. In fact, when I think of my own hair, it behaves in a wide range of ways depending on length, product, manipulation, and its mood that day.

Even looking at the pictures in this thread, I saw 4a hair that looked like mine. I saw 4a hair that looked nothing like mine. I saw 4b hair that looked like mine. I saw 4b hair that looked nothing like mine. It didn't even matter what the state of the hair was. I saw wet 4a hair that looked like my hair dry. 

So, in the end, I am going to stick with type 4 hair. It's somewhere in there. Maybe, my hair is just a chameleon.



msa said:


> The thing is, it's not that I think there is less variety in type 4. I think it has the *most* variety. The problem with the amount of variety is it makes it more difficult to categorize subtypes.
> 
> I really think type 4 on a basic level is coily (ranging from larger to tiny) and it's "kinky" (though I don't like that term..."nappy" is more what I mean).  Outside of that, there's too much on even one person's head for me to care about categorizing it. Especially since you basically have to treat a "4a" and a "4b" the same way in order for them to thrive.


----------



## GodivaChocolate (Oct 3, 2009)

Kurlee said:


> See the first pic to me is definitely curly and S shaped to me (4a). The second, not so much. I see no similarities in the nature of these heads except for the brown skin on the people it's growing from. With that said. Lawd...... I have a hair typing headache. Everyone is gonna see it, how they see it. I understand what you guys are getting at, but I just never thought the hair typing thing was ever complicated or hard to figure out. It's far from perfect and needs improvements, but I have yet to see a head that I couldn't judge what the hair type was, upon a fifile:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/MONICA%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-8.pngrst glance. With that said, I am waving the white flag!!!!!



I've been trying to figure out my hair type and the 1st pic is eactly how my natural hair looks, except the back is even looser.....thxs


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## Celestial (Oct 3, 2009)

Nonie said:


> Yes coarseness is the thickness of the strand. I think OP got confused coz she was told her hair was kinkier that Priss Pot's (I think) and so if PP is 4A then she assumed she was too. It isn't. "Kinky" means tightly curled and OP's curls are not tight (like a compressed spring) but are rather loose.
> 
> I am not sure but I also think type 3 hair tends to stretch when wet with water and shrink up as it dries. (OK so does 4). But lets assume both types had pressed hair void of product. If you wet them, 4 will shrink big time stick up in a puff that looks like an afro maybe clumping (A) or not (B).
> 
> 3 on the other hand will get wavy and of course so be shorter than when it was straight due to the waves but it will be stretched out by the water and hanging probably flat instead of being poofy and then puff up as it dries.


 
I'm trying to post the pics but I'm not sure if I'm doing it right.


----------



## andromeda (Oct 3, 2009)

Celestial said:


> I'm trying to post the pics but I'm not sure if I'm doing it right.


The pics are upside down (and the middle is sort of blurry) but your hair looks very healthy!


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## Celestial (Oct 3, 2009)

rosa praeclara said:


> The pics are upside down (and the middle is sort of blurry) but your hair looks very healthy!


 
That was my very first time snapping pictures of my hair and posting it. The next time I'll make sure I have someone else take the photos for me. I wanted to post how my hair looks after I wash it because I have lots of shrinkage.


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## vainღ♥♡jane (Oct 4, 2009)

in its natural state, yes it is. a lot of 4b'ers have probably been relaxed since they popped out of the womb. i've only seen them on the hair boards.​


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## scotchbonnet (Oct 7, 2009)

4b hair - VERY COMMON.


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## lisabrown070109 (Oct 23, 2009)

Well, im a 4b and right now its in the in between stages and Im feeling rather furstrated. my hair is just not right. Maybe its because its in between growth. I was using Kccc and for some reason, i get better results with ecostyler gel. I co wash daily. I still use the kinky curly knot today which works great for my hair. I think im probably upset at the fact that i really can't do anything with it except wear it in a twa until further notice (lol)


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## Shay72 (Oct 23, 2009)

I'm only on page 1 and I am really confused...okay let me get back to reading.


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## CenteredGirl (Oct 23, 2009)

I don't buy into hair type anymore.  I buy in to finding products/regimen that make my hair easier to manage.  My hair has changed 180 degrees because of what I've learned from my sisters.  I considered my hair to be a tight coily impossible to handle when I first started on my journey.  Now that pattern is somewhat there, but I think it has improved so that it's not breaking off like it did before. 

I dunno.  It's a mystery.


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## Shay72 (Oct 24, 2009)

After reading I think about  80-85% of this thread I am still really confused .  It really doesn't matter because I love what is growing out of my head and I will love it even more when I cut off these relaxed ends.


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## MyAngelEyez~C~U (Oct 24, 2009)

I consider myself 4b. or at minimum 4a/b mixed. I was natural until I was 18, so unlike a lot of folks, I remember my natural texture. The thing is, my mother always kept my hair straightened. She'd wash my hair, then press it straight with Utrasheen cream press or crisco. The only time I saw my hair natural/"nappy" was on wash day. My hair texture is pretty close to my mom's.


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## ChristmasCarol (Oct 24, 2009)

OMG! Angeleyes, you were SOOO cute!!!

Are we related? You look like half the women in my family. You know, my grandaddy was a "rolling stone" 

Has your hair darkened as you've aged? My hair used to be a little darker than what is shown in your pics - but very sandy. Now, it's just medium brown with red undertones. I HATED my haircolor growing up, but I noticed alot of women purposely bleach their hair to get this color now.

I'm bout' to go to my mother's house and when I get there I'm gonna look at some of my 1970's school pictures. Thanks for bringing back the memories!


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## Imani (Oct 24, 2009)

I think its very common in real life. i'm pretty sure my hair is 4b. very tight, no defined coils. mostly random bends with some teeny tiny coils here and there (and then those coils bend and shrink up on each other in a random pattern if that makes sense. meaning u wouldn't know the coils was there unless u stretched it out. And as soon as u comb it, it kinda goes away. someone mentioned upthread that 4bers may THINK they have no coils at all bc most never let their hair dry without combing/manipulating it). 

However, since I've been on this board it seems like I don't see that many 4b heads similar to mine.


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## MyAngelEyez~C~U (Oct 24, 2009)

sipp100 said:


> OMG! Angeleyes, you were SOOO cute!!!
> 
> Are we related? You look like half the women in my family. You know, my grandaddy was a "rolling stone"
> 
> ...



Thank you! Um yeah, my hair darkened to ash blonde. I dye it red now.  We could be related, my grand daddy is still making babies, . Is your family from Louisiana/Texas?


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## angelbaby (Oct 24, 2009)

Nonie said:


> Now, I disagree 100% with the theory that 4B hair has not got a pattern or is made of zigzags. I have 4B hair. Not 4A/B or 4A, but 4B hair. My whole family has 4B hair. I also disagree with the theory that 4A hair has the smallest coil, coz my coils are as tiny as they come and I am not 4A coz those curls are bigger. My hair cannot do things 4A hair can like WNG. :



You can disagree, but you are absolutely WRONG!!!!!  My hair grows out like this.  If my hair is not manipulated it grows out like this.  There is no curl pattern to my hair which I can see in my edges and I could tell when I was younger.  My hair has always been this sort of odd poofy, kind of straight, coarse hair.  It doesn't coil PERIOD!  It has no definable wave pattern.  It kinks where it wants to and it's straight, then it kinks some more.  

When I saw Andre's curl pattern definition I was thrilled to find out that this was not some oddity and that other people had hair like this too.


----------



## ChristmasCarol (Oct 24, 2009)

MyAngelEyez~C~U said:


> Thank you! Um yeah, my hair darkened to ash blonde. I dye it red now.  We could be related, my grand daddy is still making babies, . Is your family from Louisiana/Texas?


 
Naw, nobody from LA or TX. My mother's family moved to Ohio about 100 years ago from Pike Road (Montgomery County) Alabama and my father's family is Ethiopian by way of Jamaica about 120 years ago. But you know some people think we're ALL related to each other. I have a VERY common last name, and I get certain people asking me if I'm related this person and that person (all African-American, of course) from here and there just cuz of the last name. I'd like to say something smart to them, but usually I'll just make up a name using their last name and ask if they're related to such and such from Kansas. They always look at me like I'm crazy.


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## Celestial (Oct 25, 2009)

lisabrown070109 said:


> Well, im a 4b and right now its in the in between stages and Im feeling rather furstrated. my hair is just not right. Maybe its because its in between growth. I was using Kccc and for some reason, i get better results with ecostyler gel. I co wash daily. I still use the kinky curly knot today which works great for my hair. I think im probably upset at the fact that i really can't do anything with it except wear it in a twa until further notice (lol)


 
Don't get frustrated and don't worry about texture. Find a product(s) and a regimen that works for you and stick to it. It is not easy for a lot of us and some of us didn't find what work until 3 years after our initial BC. If your hair is in a TWA you can go to the salon and have it comb-twisted. That is what I did when I had a twa and when it loosen after a week and a half, I would pick the twist out with the tip of the rat tail comb. It look so good and I got lots of compliments. I got compliments when it was comb-twisted and when the comb twists were picked.


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## Nonie (Oct 25, 2009)

angelbaby said:


> You can disagree, but you are absolutely WRONG!!!!!  My hair grows out like this.  If my hair is not manipulated it grows out like this.  There is no curl pattern to my hair which I can see in my edges and I could tell when I was younger.  My hair has always been this sort of odd poofy, kind of straight, coarse hair.  It doesn't coil PERIOD!  It has no definable wave pattern.  It kinks where it wants to and it's straight, then it kinks some more.
> 
> When I saw Andre's curl pattern definition I was thrilled to find out that this was not some oddity and that other people had hair like this too.



You're entitled to your opinion.


----------



## Qualitee (Oct 25, 2009)




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## Swanky (Oct 25, 2009)

Don't know for sure.


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## Jhuidah (Oct 25, 2009)

Could it be that people's definitions of 4b are different? I know I used to define myself as 4a (with a sprinkling of 3c throughout), but then again my hair looks a lot like some folks who define themselves as 4b (hi Nonie!).

So...I don't know. The whole hair type thing is so divisive sometimes.


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## poookie (Oct 25, 2009)

so after reading 6 pages of this thread...  on 40 posts per page view...  i think it's pretty safe to say that hair typing sucks.

my new growth comes in as reallly teeny tiny pen spring sized coils that clump together.  so i'd call myself *4a*.  but some of y'all would call it *4b*.  my new growth coils look *exactly* like mwedzi & nonie's coils when they're left unmanipulated, & not blown out like they usually are.  and that now makes me confused.  i'm just gonna type myself as *beauti4l*  & call it a day!


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## EbonyHairedPrincess (Apr 27, 2010)

Subscribing


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## Foxglove (Apr 27, 2010)

poookie said:


> so after reading 6 pages of this thread...  on 40 posts per page view...  i think it's pretty safe to say that hair typing sucks.
> 
> *my new growth comes in as reallly teeny tiny pen spring sized coils that clump together.  so i'd call myself 4a.  but some of y'all would call it 4b.  my new growth coils look exactly like mwedzi & nonie's coils when they're left unmanipulated,* & not blown out like they usually are.  and that now makes me confused.  i'm just gonna type myself as *beauti4l*  & call it a day!



My hair does this too. The closeups look like mwedzi's and nonie's teeny coils 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





and my hair behaves more like the 4b hair that I've seen but I thought the definition of 4a was coils. Still confused lol


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## Nonie (Apr 27, 2010)

Foxglove said:


> My hair does this too. The closeups look like mwedzi's and nonie's teeny coils
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It is. 4A just has coils are bigger than 4B. Bigger coils that clump easily because they are wider so cup each other with ease and hence WNGs show up as defined coils because the clumping creates THICKER coils that are distinguishable from each other. 

4B coils are that small, as you show, and so the coils are too "closed up" to clump easily. They behave kinda like pen springs would behave if you tried to press them together: instead of combining to form a corkscrew, they would just other bounce off each other or just lock up. 

I think you've figured your hair out. Andre's definition "of no pattern" is probably what has you all confused. Bottom line is, at least you know how your hair behaves. What it's called isn't that important.


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## FlowerHair (Apr 27, 2010)

Foxglove said:


> My hair does this too. The closeups look like mwedzi's and nonie's teeny coils
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Those little coils make me miss my dad. 
So cute.


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## Foxglove (Apr 27, 2010)

FlowerHair said:


> Those little coils make me miss my dad.
> So cute.



aww


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## Janet' (Dec 11, 2010)

Good thread...Interesting comments.


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## miss stress (Dec 12, 2010)

i think my daughter is 4b and Ive never seen hair like heres b4 so I think it may just b rare


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## Nonie (Dec 12, 2010)

miss stress said:


> i think my daughter is 4b and Ive never seen hair like heres b4 so I think it may just b rare



Do you have photos?


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## jamaica68 (Dec 12, 2010)

Jhuidah said:


> *Could it be that people's definitions of 4b are different?* I know I used to define myself as 4a (with a sprinkling of 3c throughout), but then again my hair looks a lot like some folks who define themselves as 4b (hi Nonie!).
> 
> So...I don't know. *The whole hair type thing is so divisive sometimes*.


 
I think you're on to something about everyone's definitions and by looking at the old poll, 4b isn't uncommon at all.


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## miss stress (Dec 12, 2010)

I think her hair is 4b cause there is no curl or wave pattern whatsoever,and its drier than any hair I've ever touched I would call it cnapp actually, but I have heard people say that type doesnt exist so till I figure something out I guess I'll just call it 4b Those r the best texture shots I can find so I hope u can tell wht I mean


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## Imani (Dec 12, 2010)

Everyone in my family is 4b. And I think Im 4b or mostly 4b. Some of my hair in the back has semi-visible coils when wet, but they pretty much disappear once my hair dries so I generally say I'm 4b. 

I thought 4b was very common until I came to the boards and saw that didn't seem to be the case amongst the regular posters on here. Then I began to wonder if 4b was as common as I thought it was.


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## RUBY (Dec 12, 2010)

Foxglove said:


> My hair does this too. The closeups look like mwedzi's and nonie's teeny coils
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
This is the first time on this board where I've seen an example of how my own hair actually behaves. My hair curls the exact same way into a tiny circle but uncurled that piece of hair could be several inches long.


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## Tiye (Dec 12, 2010)

miss stress said:


> I think her hair is 4b cause there is no curl or wave pattern whatsoever,and its drier than any hair I've ever touched I would call it cnapp actually, but I have heard people say that type doesnt exist so till I figure something out I guess I'll just call it 4b Those r the best texture shots I can find so I hope u can tell wht I mean



^^ She's beautiful.  I didn't quote the pics in case you decide to remove them. That's a lot like my hair.  It doesn't have to be dry, you just have to find the right products for it. You need a low product regimen - that type of hair doesn't get anything out of being drowned in goop or grease. Use mild shampoo. Follow Nonie's advice. She has her hair under control and has her methods well documented here on lhcf.

I don't necessarily identify with the cnapp'ers but otoh I don't appreciate people saying I don't exist either.


----------



## Tiye (Dec 12, 2010)

Imani said:


> Everyone in my family is 4b. And I think Im 4b or mostly 4b. Some of my hair in the back has semi-visible coils when wet, but they pretty much disappear once my hair dries so I generally say I'm 4b.
> 
> I thought 4b was very common until I came to the boards and saw that didn't seem to be the case amongst the regular posters on here. Then I began to wonder if 4b was as common as I thought it was.



It's common. Maybe it should be said that 4bs are the least likely to show a lot of pics on hair boards. Maybe that's because we already know what type of hair we have so we don't have as many questions. I think the biggest degree of confusion was with people in the 3-4a range (as demonstrated by early gen hair boards like naturallycurly.com).

And there's the wow factor issue. Reality is that 4b hair - especially if it's not super long doesn't get as much notice. People tend not to post pics if they already have the idea that people aren't going to be interested. This doesn't mean that 4bs aren't posting pics - but they might be posting on low traffic blogs or little visited fotki albums, etc, - so they sort to the bottom of the pile and people don't know about them.


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## Bun Mistress (Dec 12, 2010)

I'm 4B, I have pics posted in the 4b thread.  Supper shrinkage and for the most part, no curl pattern to speak of, some z if you try to let the hair clump, but if it clumps, it just tangles.  I did the BKT because I got tried of the detangling sessions and braiding.


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## lushcoils (Dec 12, 2010)

Tiye said:


> It's common. Maybe it should be said that 4bs are the least likely to show a lot of pics on hair boards. Maybe that's because we already know what type of hair we have so we don't have as many questions. I think the biggest degree of confusion was with people in the 3-4a range (as demonstrated by early gen hair boards like naturallycurly.com).
> 
> And there's the wow factor issue. Reality is that 4b hair - especially if it's not super long doesn't get as much notice. People tend not to post pics if they already have the idea that people aren't going to be interested. This doesn't mean that 4bs aren't posting pics - but they might be posting on low traffic blogs or little visited fotki albums, etc, - so they sort to the bottom of the pile and people don't know about them.



Exactly. I was about to post this. 4B hair textures typically don't get oohed, ahhed, and complimented like the curlies unless it's like APL length or HUGE or looks curly some way from a twist out/braid out etc. So we don't post as much. Plus, I think 4Bers either 1). tend to have locs since it's easier for us to retain hair that way, 2). relax our hair since many 4bers believer their hair is too nappy to go natural, or 3). don't believe it's possible for them to grow long hair anyway (from the lack of real life role models) so they don't bother to search for hair tips or boards like these.


----------



## nzeee (Dec 12, 2010)

wow... i normally read an entire thread before posting but this one is 22pages. i got to page 6 and then read from the top of this one... but i'm compelled to post, pls don't stone me if i mention something already noted upthread.
------------------------------------
i don't know that we'll ever crack the 4b code since hair typing is not a science and not carried out by scientists (so the fact that many people self-type as 4b in this poll means nothing really).

i do disagree tho with many who have said hair doesn't grow in a zig-zag or none curl pattern tho. i wouldn't say that 4b is necessarily rare, but i don't see many people w/ my variation of 4b hair or my mum's hair which takes that non-curl thing to the extreme. 

most of my hair is not curly or coilly. much of it is just like my mum's, meaning it grows in crinkly, definitely not curly/coilly and w/ no discernable curl pattern. my mum's now... i have yet to see her hair on anyone else. maybe i need to look more closely or just know more people, but her hair looks lightly relaxed when it's not. i don't have a pic of her hair but when i can snag one w/out her freaking out i will.

i wish i could see more variation of 4b hair frankly. i'm desperate for a hair twin. i'd like to see another person who is told to cut her relaxed ends (i have none, just lots of random hair that grows in straight-ish throughout my head) and others who couldn't fake an afro if they tried due to once again, the random straighter bits that just do not mix well.

witness all those who doubt the existence of the non-curl pattern (doesn't apply to my whole head, just about 50-60% of it. sides are what most associate w/ 4b hair, super tight curls. but you can see the texture difference between front and sides in this pic):
<img pulled for google reasons>

and then of course i have 4a at nape and crown:
<img pulled for google reasons>

my pubes don't even grown in curly never mind!


----------



## cornaline (Dec 13, 2010)

Hi all,
 I havn't read the whole thread either and I am kind of new to my HJ so sorry if my question seems out of place:  although new, I have been a lurker on this site for a few months now, I think that I read somewhere about a 4C type.  So my question is is there such hair type ?  
My hair type is much coarsier and dry than the tightest curls on Nzee's photo.  I feel that this is rahter this extreme, dry tight coils kin of hair type that is marginalized on the board.  Please excuse my english if there are mistakes, I am francophone.


----------



## Nonie (Dec 13, 2010)

cornaline said:


> Hi all,
> I havn't read the whole thread either and I am kind of new to my HJ so sorry if my question seems out of place:  although new, I have been a lurker on this site for a few months now, I think that I read somewhere about a 4C type.  So my question is is there such hair type ?
> My hair type is much coarsier and dry than the tightest curls on Nzee's photo.  I feel that this is rahter this extreme, dry tight coils kin of hair type that is marginalized on the board.  Please excuse my english if there are mistakes, I am francophone.



There's no 4C. 4B can be fine or coarse and the dryer it is and the more manipulated it is, the more "shapeless" it becomes. I will continue to insist that no hair grows out of anyone's head in a zigzag or formless pattern. It's either straight, wavy or curly. The end.

If you cut your hair really short and watch it grow out of your scalp unmanipulated, you will see it grow in a curvy way. It's manipulating that takes away that shape. 

This is an example of coarse (ie thick strands), dry 4B hair that has not been manipulated:





As you can see, the hair curls back into circular shapes that follow the pattern of the hair. In the areas where it is thicker, it's not clumping because the coils are so small so that they cannot cup each other in distinct tubes the way 4A might.

These kids below have fine 4B hair, of course the girl with cornrows has manipulated her hair but look at the  hairline, the hair doesn't stick out in zigzags but coils.





As I've said before, if you stretch out a coil, depending on what angle you're looking at it from, it looks wavy or zigzag. 





...and if you braid a spring, it will become warped and look shapeless. Same thing when it comes to 4B hair.


----------



## Nonie (Dec 13, 2010)

nzeee said:


> witness all those who doubt the existence of the non-curl pattern (doesn't apply to my whole head, just about 50-60% of it. sides are what most associate w/ 4b hair, super tight curls. but you can see the texture difference between front and sides in this pic):
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your photo is too blurry in the area you say has no pattern for me to see for sure this "no pattern claim". Can you take it with that area being the area of focus? Also, you should not manipulate it. No brushing.

Another thing to consider is when hair is seen en masse, it's pattern is hard to see, especially if there's no clumping to emphasize the shape of the strands. That area you highlight reminded me of these photos of my hair:





...if I'm guessing right that the blur is hiding this. The hair looks formless, but if you look at the strands that stand alone, you can see the pattern.


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## Nonie (Dec 13, 2010)

miss stress said:


> I think her hair is 4b cause there is no curl or wave pattern whatsoever,and its drier than any hair I've ever touched I would call it cnapp actually, but I have heard people say that type doesnt exist so till I figure something out I guess I'll just call it 4b Those r the best texture shots I can find so I hope u can tell wht I mean



Your daughter is darling, and yes she does have 4B hair.  It looks like the hair that runs in my family. Here are some samples:


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## PrincesscurlyQ<3 (Dec 13, 2010)

I consider myself 4b. My curls are looser in the front and get tighter towards the back. I have thick strands on top of that. I've been natural for 7 months,  relaxer free for 14 months,  & my locs aren't hanging yet. I think its easier to tell the way hair behaves once its longer and with more weight.


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## Janet' (Dec 13, 2010)

I'm sad that 4b'ers don't post because they don't feel that they will get the positive reinforcement...I love looking at every type of hair, but it makes me especially proud to see 4b hair thriving (and it doesn't have to be super long, just super healthy)...


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## Nonie (Dec 13, 2010)

Janet' said:


> I'm sad that 4b'ers don't post because they don't feel that they will get the positive reinforcement...I love looking at every type of hair, but it makes me especially proud to see 4b hair thriving (and it doesn't have to be super long, just super healthy)...



Aww...that's sweet Janet. There were a lot of pics and reinforcement in this thread: http://www.longhaircareforum.com/ha...sert”-4b-pics-here-↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓.html#post11241450


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## NYDee (Dec 13, 2010)

Why are people talking about marginalization based on hair type on this board? Are we on the same board? I have seen all types of hair getting good comments and people drooling so long as it’s healthy and long. If you post a thread and you don't get much reply its either people don't know the answer or it's not interesting. Sometimes I think people just like to feel like victims and I think this stems more out of their own insecurities than anything else. And yes my hair type is a type 4 too.


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## jupitermoon (Dec 13, 2010)

This thread has been an interesting read.  Over a year ago when I first created this thread I had no idea it would turn out this way.  Hair typing is a heated topic for many and understandably so.  During the time I created this thread I hadn't even considered this.  I definitely didn't intend on creating divisions or upsetting anyone.

Now I avoid the topic of hair typing all together.  It really isn't important.  Everyone's hair is unique and there are so many variations that it can't fit these narrow definitions.


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## Janet' (Dec 13, 2010)

^^^I think that it definitely has created some interesting conversation...and that's all good, Celina!


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## iri9109 (Dec 13, 2010)

NYDee said:


> Why are people talking about marginalization based on hair type on this board? Are we on the same board?* I have seen all types of hair getting good comments and **people drooling so long as it’s healthy and long. *If you post a thread and you don't get much reply its either people don't know the answer or it's not interesting. Sometimes I think people just like to feel like victims and I think this stems more out of their own insecurities than anything else. And yes my hair type is a type 4 too.



i think thats the point. 4b hair doesnt get alot of love from most ppl unless its really long...4b TWAs or shoulder length and shorter hair (& im not even taking shrinkage into consideration) dont get as much attention/appreciation as they should...and its rare for 4b hair to get much longer than that off the boards because alot of ppl either dont know how to take care of it or just slap relaxers on it b/c they've been brainwashed to think that its "bad" and that it cant grow long.


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## aleemah (Dec 13, 2010)

iri9109 said:


> i think thats the point. 4b hair doesnt get alot of love from most ppl unless its really long...4b TWAs or shoulder length and shorter hair (& im not even taking shrinkage into consideration) dont get as much attention/appreciation as they should...and its rare for 4b hair to get much longer than that off the boards because alot of ppl either dont know how to take care of it or just slap relaxers on it b/c they've been brainwashed to think that its "bad" and that it cant grow long.



Bulls-eye! You are so right about this.  I have a TWA(4b) and I have asked questions on other boards and didn't get many replies but when I browse I see other naturals(4b's) with long locks and they get all the attention. Either way, I love my 4zzzzz afro and I'm loving it more and more with each passing day. I was a lurker for a few months and was kinda scared to BC because of the negative feedback on 4b hair. Its odd because when i was bald I didnt get such a negative reaction from ppl. Now that they see what 4b hair actually look like up close I get this reaction  but thats ok cause they ain't stopping my flow. I can't wait till the summer time cause Im going hard in the paint with it


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## Tiye (Dec 13, 2010)

iri9109 said:


> i think thats the point. 4b hair doesnt get alot of love from most ppl unless its really long...4b TWAs or shoulder length and shorter hair (& im not even taking shrinkage into consideration) dont get as much attention/appreciation as they should...and its rare for 4b hair to get much longer than that off the boards because alot of ppl either dont know how to take care of it or just slap relaxers on it b/c they've been brainwashed to think that its "bad" and that it cant grow long.



Long hair didn't begin with chat boards and not everyone in the world is on a hair growth journey. This is a special interest board focused on long hair so that's the majority here. IRL many people like short hair and aren't looking to grow it out. This isn't because they're poor unfortunates who don't know about internet hair boards, or because they think their hair is bad, it's simply the look they like.

No one is/or should be complaining about chat board marginalization. The whole point in coming here or any discussion board is to get or share information and tips. A chat board can't make you a victim. Anyone feeling marginalized should just log off and not come back.


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## aleemah (Dec 13, 2010)

Tiye said:


> Long hair didn't begin with chat boards and not everyone in the world is on a hair growth journey. This is a special interest board focused on long hair so that's the majority here. IRL many people like short hair and aren't looking to grow it out. This isn't because they're poor unfortunates who don't know about internet hair boards, or because they think their hair is bad, it's simply the look they like.
> 
> No one is/or should be complaining about chat board marginalization. The whole point in coming here or any discussion board is to get or share information and tips. A chat board can't make you a victim. Anyone feeling marginalized should just log off and not come back.




I think most of what you say is true, but what about when you have newbies with 4b hair who come to these boards to gather information or tips to grow longer hair and they see that their hair type is either being rejected or not talked about as much as other hair types. I think this "hair typing" thing is becoming a problem(or has been a problem). I have been to many natural hair boards and this question is one of the most common questions. What I have a problem with is how ppl try to sweep it under the rug like its a non-issue. There are way more 4b hair types on these boards but they would rather hide or claim they are 4a because they have a small patch of hair that is 4a or they manipulate their hair with styling gels.butters etc. I see them all the time on youtube but then I ask myself well why do they do that and I think we all know the answer to that. If 4b hair was being glorified, you would see them coming out the woodwork. Its the same way rather virtual or in reality and thats just my opinion.


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## Nonie (Dec 13, 2010)

aleemah said:


> I think most of what you say is true, but what about when you have newbies with 4b hair who come to these boards to gather information or tips to grow longer hair and they see that their hair type is either being rejected or not talked about as much as other hair types. I think this "hair typing" thing is becoming a problem(or has been a problem). I have been to many natural hair boards and this question is one of the most common questions. What I have a problem with is how ppl try to sweep it under the rug like its a non-issue. There are way more 4b hair types on these boards but they would rather hide or claim they are 4a because they have a small patch of hair that is 4a or they manipulate their hair with styling gels.butters etc. I see them all the time on youtube but then I ask myself well why do they do that and I think we all know the answer to that. If 4b hair was being glorified, you would see them coming out the woodwork. Its the same way rather virtual or in reality and thats just my opinion.



With all due respect, I've been on the forum for a little over 7 years and initially, that might've been the case where everyone wanted to claim type 3 hair, but I have seen a major change in that, and now people are proud to be who they are. You might have the odd one who keeps asking "Are you sure that's my type?" when told they are 4B but it's the exception than the rule. I haven't seen any 4B's, on this forum, not get love. I personally love to share as much as I can and will actually seek out threads talking about 4B hair whenever I log on. I don't read every thread in the hair forum. In fact, I usually scan through looking for threads I might've missed that discuss my type of hair. This has been my MO from when I joined the forum, when I actually searched for posts by people with hair like mine (Mufasa, Daughter, Den1, JCoily...to name a few) because their information was more useful to me than that of relaxed or other type haired members. And even back then, when natural type 4 hair wasn't that common on the forum (coz majority of folks were relaxed), I never felt this animosity toward my type of hair that so many of you seem to feel there is. 

That said, long hair gets a lot of attention, whether it's relaxed or natural. That's nothing new. But that has never stopped me from sharing about my hair and I'd ask questions too if I had any, even though I've got nothing to show for all the years I've been here. Coz I've never felt as if it's only long-haired folks who get attention.

If anyone feels like their thread is being ignored, you can bump it up or PM someone whom you think might be able to help. There are so many forums and so many discussions going on that folks might not be looking when you post. And then coz your thread gets buried, you sulk and decide it's coz of your hair texture. C'mon nah! If ever there was a time when 4B hair would've been shunned on this forum, it was in 2003 when I joined the forum and 90% of the members were relaxed and everyone who was natural was "type 3". But even back then, I never ever felt like I was ignored or like my hair wasn't worthy of being posted or discussed. That there are people who feel that way today makes me wonder how you'd have survived back when we were so few on the forum who claimed type 4B.


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## EllePixie (Dec 14, 2010)

I don't think people getting ignored has anything to do with having 4b hair...short hair for sure, 4b, nah. But I mean...we ARE on LONG Hair Care Forum so...no surprise there, right? I've seen people say things along the line of..."I don't really listen to women who don't have long hair, because really, what do they know?" I mean...if that's how you feel, that's fine, but I'm sure there are many women on this site who do a ton of research and are making awesome progress in their hair journeys, even if their hair isn't BSL+ (yet). Either way, as a "short" haired woman, that doesn't hurt my feelings...I'll just let my hair thrive.


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## Amerie2304 (Dec 14, 2010)

Quick question here: Which hair type is "o" strands on Andre's chart? I'm pretty sure it's Type 4 but would it be 4a or 4b? I've always been curious about this.


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## Nonie (Dec 14, 2010)

Amerie2304 said:


> Quick question here: Which hair type is "o" strands on Andre's chart? I'm pretty sure it's Type 4 but would it be 4a or 4b? I've always been curious about this.



Not sure what "O' strands are but the cross-section of a coil is an O and all curly hair (both 3 and 4 are coils...just of varying sizes) so all type 3 and all type 4 would form O's if were talking about the circular shape created when coils contract. If you snip a small section of any of these hairs and place it on a table, you will see O's, with 3's being bigger than 4's, and 4B the smallest. 

If you stretch curly hair, it becomes wavy and S like. So again, both 3 and 4 types can look S like although 3's do this with most easy and 4B with most difficulty. I think shingling with some holding foam or texlaxing might be the only way to see 4B appear wavy, short of stretching it with your fingers.


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## nzeee (Dec 14, 2010)

Nonie said:


> Your photo is too blurry in the area you say has no pattern for me to see for sure this "no pattern claim". Can you take it with that area being the area of focus? Also, you should not manipulate it. No brushing.
> 
> Another thing to consider is when hair is seen en masse, it's pattern is hard to see, especially if there's no clumping to emphasize the shape of the strands. That area you highlight reminded me of these photos of my hair:
> 
> ...



hey noni,

thanks for responding, i was hoping you would. 

here's my thing tho: i'm not doubting that particular part of my hair has curls, they're tiny but i know they are there even without the separation you have illustrated in your own pics. the curls at both sides of my head (in the front only) are what i would typically associate with 4b hair. but the majority of my hair doesn't look like that. the majority of it grows in a loose... i don't even know what to call it because it's not a curl. even w/ the blurry photo, i think you can tell that between the top and the side that is visible, there is a distinct texture difference (** btw: my hair is fairly unmanipulated in the pic. there is no product. my hair wasn't just combed or brushed right before the pic but likely had been at some point that day). 

so seeing as much of my hair is of the hardly-any-curl-at-all variety, perhaps this is one type of 4b that andre's system is referring to... seriously, i had a stylist offer to cut my relaxed ends. but my ends aren't relaxed, there's just hairs that grow w/out any curl pattern... 

i'll take more pics this wknd if i can manage it on the last shopping wknd before christmas. i'm seriously fascinated (of course, right?) and would like to know if there is anyone else.


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## Nonie (Dec 14, 2010)

nzeee said:


> so seeing as much of my hair is of the hardly-any-curl-at-all variety, perhaps this is one type of 4b that andre's system is referring to... seriously, i had a stylist offer to cut my relaxed ends. but my ends aren't relaxed, there's just hairs that grow w/out any curl pattern...
> 
> i'll take more pics this wknd if i can manage it on the last shopping wknd before christmas. i'm seriously fascinated (of course, right?) and would like to know if there is anyone else.



Before my mom started the S Curl regimen I put her on, her hair looked kinda like that:





My manipulated hair has that appearance too:





You can see it at the end of my braids in the pic below:


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## nzeee (Dec 19, 2010)

^^YES!! that's what i meant )

particularly in the pics of your mum. that's why i've never been a fan of the afro on me but never broke down the reason why, just that it didn't 'look good', just kind of unkept. but now i know the reason is because i can't get a nice round 'fro w/ all the straight bits sticking out. sometimes i'd even tuck different sections in so it could look more uniform. and... well, i always felt like my hair was even more awful because of that. here i am, dark skinned, kinky hair, and my afro looked whack. it was all kinds of fail in my eyes. sorry to get all OT, just really glad to see someone else w/ my kind of 4b 

curious tho: what happened to your mum's hair once you got her going w/ the s'curl? how did her hair change?

and now for my pics. i think these do a good job of illustrating the mostly straight no pattern thing but it's seriously hard taking a close-up hair pic (for me) so they're not the best but should get my point across.

*note, my hair is freshly washed and lightly conditioned. air dried about 15-20m, no product. it's entirely and completely unmanipulated.


(Edited because the 2nd pic is upside down... but don't know how to fix so upside down it remains


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## nzeee (Dec 19, 2010)

nzeee said:


> witness all those who doubt the existence of the non-curl pattern (doesn't apply to my whole head, just about 50-60% of it. sides are what most associate w/ 4b hair, super tight curls. but you can see the texture difference between front and sides in this pic):
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Nonie said:


> Your photo is too blurry in the area you say has no pattern for me to see for sure this "no pattern claim". Can you take it with that area being the area of focus? Also, you should not manipulate it. No brushing.
> 
> Another thing to consider is when hair is seen en masse, it's pattern is hard to see, especially if there's no clumping to emphasize the shape of the strands. That area you highlight reminded me of these photos of my hair:
> 
> ...





Nonie said:


> Your photo is too blurry in the area you say has no pattern for me to see for sure this "no pattern claim". Can you take it with that area being the area of focus? Also, you should not manipulate it. No brushing.



oh, i should also say that the tiny area at the side is highlighted to show contrast between it and the bulk of the non-curl part that exists at the front, then randomly throughout. this is what causes the 'relaxed ends' look like your mum has in that pic. 

it's because both my sides are what most would associate as typical 4b since they're super tiny curlies and my nape and crown is larger, clumping curls that i wanted to point this other part of my hair. this other part that does not curl at all like the rest. i think it's this large area in the front that may illustrate what others may be referring to when they say 4a hair has no curl pattern. that section is def not curly nor is it manipulated to look like that. and i think it's atypical is what i'm getting at. not that 4b hair is rare, it's really not, but could there be sub-sub-types of 4b; those w/ teeny tiny coils, those w/ kinks and those w/out much curl at all...

hope that makes sense now.


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## Nonie (Dec 19, 2010)

@Nzeee (sorry I had missed one e  ), I think when 4B hair is well moisturized internally, and not manipulated, it just takes up its natural pattern: coily. My mom's hair was very dry because her only moisturizer was not water-based. She also had never DC'd her hair until I introduced her to it. That's the only change we made in her case. 

I also discovered my hair was coily when I discovered DCing. Prior to that, I'd never seen my hair look any other way than the way my mom's looked. 

As far as afros are concerned, I've always just patted my afro into place. But since introducing S Curl into my life (and my mom's) the moisture in the product causes the hair to curl back into itself so that the afro just forms w/o much effort. I think another mistake people make when trying to create an afro is use a comb with short teeth. You need a pick to create a good afro because the teeth allow you to reach all the way from the perimeter of your hair to the center so that if you can go around your head, lift hair to the afro size you want, and not mess that up while combing other sections. Then you can just pat it into shape, but S Curl just seems to make the hair coil back. 

You can see from the close-up of my afro, that the hair ends are just curling back to form a round shape:





BTW, combing your hair is manipulating, which might explain why your 4A section isn't clumping. If you comb your hair when it is semi-dry or just damp, and especially if you comb it w/o some moisturizing or sticky-ish product, then your hair won't really clump. I bet if you were to shampoo your hair or clarify, then DC with heat using a product like Aveda Damage Repair or Emergencee or AO GPB and then you followed that with a moisturizing regular condition, only combing your hair when slathered with those products and then rinsing, you'd see your hair clump more in the areas with bigger coils. 

I don't do WNGs so I'm not the best person to give tips on definition but I'm guessing if you DC and then condition with some uber moisturizing conditioner (Aussie Deeee...p?), that you'll see hints of coils even at your ends.

I don't know how often you dust your ends (I apologize if you already shared this but I'm too lazy to go back and read), but that does make a difference too. You don't need to cut off too much. I just put my hair in tiny twists all over and snip off this much__ from each one, and that keeps my ends behaving nicely.


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## jcdlox (Dec 19, 2010)

pretty afro hair Nonie!  




Nonie said:


> @Nzeee (sorry I had missed one e  ), I think when 4B hair is well moisturized internally, and not manipulated, it just takes up its natural pattern: coily. My mom's hair was very dry because her only moisturizer was not water-based. She also had never DC'd her hair until I introduced her to it. That's the only change we made in her case.
> 
> I also discovered my hair was coily when I discovered DCing. Prior to that, I'd never seen my hair look any other way than the way my mom's looked.
> 
> ...


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## nzeee (Dec 19, 2010)

Nonie said:


> @Nzeee (sorry I had missed one e  ), I think when 4B hair is well moisturized internally, and not manipulated, it just takes up its natural pattern: coily. My mom's hair was very dry because her only moisturizer was not water-based. She also had never DC'd her hair until I introduced her to it. That's the only change we made in her case.
> 
> I also discovered my hair was coily when I discovered DCing. Prior to that, I'd never seen my hair look any other way than the way my mom's looked.
> 
> ...



werd! thanks for the advices nonie. well, i think i will leave it at that for now. don't want to turn this into the nz thread


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## OsnapCnapp! (Dec 19, 2010)

Ok so was I wrong in giving myself the nickname I use here?


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## NinasLongAmbition (Dec 20, 2010)

I am 100% 4B and proud!!


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## Janet' (Dec 23, 2010)

^^^Love that fro!


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## Embyra (Mar 21, 2011)

mwedzi said:


> I don't know.  I'm inclined to think pen spring sized coils are 4a.  Pencil to pen spring size.  Is that right, y'all?  My coils are smaller.  The picture below has coils from two parts of my head.  The one on the left is from the back which has a bigger curl, though my biggest ones are solidly the size of a pen spring, maybe a bit bigger in the very nape.  The strands themselves are also thicker.  The one on the right is from the center of my head.  The strand is a finer strand and is smaller, though not the smallest I've found on my head.  I now think the biggest curls in my nape could be called "4a" while everything else is 4b.
> 
> Left - bigger coil; Right - smaller coil
> 
> ...



_oh wow your coils are tiny thats a great visual though rather than people going off what they THINK your coil size is_



Kurlee said:


> it's funny how type 4 hair has to be totally unmanipulated and dry like a bone to determine texture, but no other hair type requires that to decide what the texture is?  It's like when type 4 hair looks a certain way, it's like, an explanation needs to follow or it needs to be seen 'naked'.   When other hair types are styled and show their texture, whatever that is, it just is? Why is that?



 



Nonie said:


> Would suggesting that 4's are more like a compact/compressed spring unless stretched  out with some product and tend to *grow out rather than down and shrink in a way that can create an afro that's round like a microphone*:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




even as a kid i knew my hair was not capable of forming a microphone afro my hair hangs to the side 
ps..Noniewhat camera are you using to take these clear zoomed in shots??


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## Nonie (Mar 21, 2011)

coconut I have a Canon PowerShot SD850 IS. LOVE IT!!!


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## Embyra (Mar 21, 2011)

Nonie said:


> @coconut I have a Canon PowerShot SD850 IS. LOVE IT!!!




thanks i knew it wasnt a camera phone......off to look


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## theLovelyStyle (Mar 21, 2011)

Ive seen a lot of type 4b's but they usually claim 4a or 3c/4a.


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## Embyra (Mar 21, 2011)

theLovelyStyle said:


> Ive seen a lot of type 4b's but they usually claim 4a or 3c/4a.



IRL? or on forums?


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## theLovelyStyle (Mar 21, 2011)

coconut said:


> IRL? or on forums?



On forums. I dont know anyone personally who types their hair with numbers and letters.


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## Embyra (Mar 22, 2011)

theLovelyStyle said:


> On forums. I dont know anyone personally who types their hair with numbers and letters.



yeah thats what i was wondering thanks


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## tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT (Mar 22, 2011)

theLovelyStyle said:


> Ive seen a lot of type 4b's but they usually claim 4a or 3c/4a.



OH MY GOD YES!!!! when i say the thread title ...exactly what popped into my head


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## SND411 (Mar 22, 2011)

theLovelyStyle said:


> Ive seen a lot of type 4b's but they usually claim 4a or 3c/4a.



And often due to a _few strands_ exhibiting a spring-like structure


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## theLovelyStyle (Mar 22, 2011)

SND411 said:


> And often due to a _few strands_ exhibiting a spring-like structure



Or even when hair has already been manipulated to a achieve a certain curl pattern.


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## tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT (Mar 22, 2011)

theLovelyStyle said:


> Or even when hair has already been manipulated to a achieve a certain curl pattern.



dang I thought it was just me.... you are perceptive as heyelllll little little
will be adding you to my list of people I annoy.... i mean friends


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## theLovelyStyle (Mar 22, 2011)

tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT said:


> dang I thought it was just me.... you are perceptive as heyelllll little little
> will be adding you to my list of people I annoy.... i mean friends



 I personally don't know my hair type because I have been relaxed since I was 12, and before relaxing I always wore box braids with extensions. 

But with all this hair typing going on I find it hilarious when folks try to coax a certain hair type when asking others of their hair type.  Oh well, long live hair typing!


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