# Spinoff: Trinity...is or isn't?



## DelightfulFlame (Mar 23, 2005)

I've got to go do some work (go figure), but I'll be back.

Give us your take...is there a Trinity or not?


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## stcsweet (Mar 23, 2005)

*Yes.

I believe that there is only one God; but He consists of three distinct persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Of course, the word "trinity" is not found in Scripture. It's used by Christians to express the doctrine of the unity of God as consisting of three distinct Persons.  *


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## Poohbear (Mar 23, 2005)

yes there is!


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## Honeyhips (Mar 23, 2005)

I was going to do this!  I'll be back too I found some interesting links.


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## JuJuBoo (Mar 24, 2005)

Yes there's a Trinity. Here's some scriptural reference.

Colossians 1:15-23
The Supremacy of Christ
***15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.



The Trinity can be hard to comprehend and hard to explain...How can someone be three in one? I try and use analogies. For example, H2O- there are three forms of water-solid (ice), liquid, and gas (vapor). They are three different forms, but it's still all water. Our own bodies are 3 part beings:Mind, body, and spirit, but it's still all me.

There are things about the Trinity that I STILL can't completely grasp and I've been a Christian for a long time. I just think it's one of those things that's hard for our little minds to wrap around. It makes COMPLETE sense to my spirit-man, but at times my mind is like "say wha?"


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## pebbles (Mar 24, 2005)

I'm really proud of you ladies!  These conversations are going so well! I'm so busy at work because of the Easter holiday I haven't had much time to participate on the forum, but you ladies are all really such a blessing! Stay blessed, sisters!!


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 24, 2005)

I'm coming back to this topic, I promise I am! We have been busy, and I can't think and research on the level that I need to right now. But I shall return! 

Be blessed!


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## PittiPat (Mar 24, 2005)

JuJuBoo said:
			
		

> Colossians 1:15-23
> The Supremacy of Christ
> ***15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.


 
I still don't get it. I need a Trinity 101 class. :crazy:


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## stcsweet (Mar 24, 2005)

PittiPat said:
			
		

> I still don't get it. I need a Trinity 101 class. :crazy:



It's not easy for us to comprehend. Here's a repost (I yanked this from the other thread...) of some info.



> God exists as a unity of three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each of the persons is distinct from the other, yet related in essence.
> 
> Each is divine in nature, but each is not the totality of the Godhead. Each has a will, loves, and says "I", and "You" when speaking.
> 
> ...


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## Honi (Mar 25, 2005)

That was good.  Before you posted this I was going to ask the question…..but God said that HE was the ONLY one and there is no other.  I struggled with this trinity concept but I think I got it now.

Thanks so much for clearing that up.


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 25, 2005)

Here's my dilemma...if they are all the same, then how can they be so different?

And if there are levels of subordination, then how are they all the same?

Jesus DIED. He was DEAD for 3 days.

Jesus went to the Father. 

The Holy Spirit wasn't sent until after Jesus was crucified. 

Yet they are all God?


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 25, 2005)

From what I read, they all have the same Spirit. But I don't relate how having the same Spirit makes Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit the same.  

I have the Spirit of God too. Does that make me part of the trinity? Or part of a quartet?  LOL...just kidding!


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## Poohbear (Mar 25, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> Here's my dilemma...if they are all the same, then how can they be so different?
> 
> And if there are levels of subordination, then how are they all the same?
> 
> ...


*When Jesus died, it was God in a human form. See, Jesus was HUMAN and DIVINE when he was on this earth. That's how Jesus died as a human and is alive today in saved Christian souls....*

*To explain trinity again...take a certain product like Noxzema Cleansing Cream for example. I see it as a product that's 3-in-1. I use it as a cleanser, moisturizer, and for oil control. Three different purposes all in one product.*

*Now let's take trinity for example as a 3-in-1 product: God is our heavenly Father, Jesus is our Savior of the punishment for our sins, the Holy Spirit is our Comforter and has many other purposes in guiding us in our Christian walk.*

*And it's not that the Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit have the same spirit... they are just three-in-God.  We are not apart of the trinity because we are not divine.*


*Does that help?*


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## CharUK (Mar 25, 2005)

At this point, I have no clue.  But i'm trying to find out.

x


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## onepraying (Mar 25, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> I've got to go do some work (go figure), but I'll be back.
> 
> Give us your take...is there a Trinity or not?



No.  God is one God; Jesus Christ is God Almighty.. He's God in work clothes.  God in the flesh.

There are different roles of God that He "plays"  There is ONE that sits on the throne.  You will not see 3 different persons:


Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, *The mighty God*, *The everlasting Father*, The Prince of Peace

John 1:1  In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word *was God*.
**************************************
1 Tim. 3:16; And without controversy, great is the mystery of godliness: GOD was mainfest(shown, made known) in the FLESH(Son in the greek meant flesh), justified in the Spirit, see of angels, PREACHED unto the Gentiles(who preached to the Gentiles? Jesus) believed on in the world, RECEIVED up into glory(who ascended? Jesus!)
**************************************
Acts 20:27-28  For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.......Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost(Spirit of God) hath made you overseer, to feed the *church of God, which HE hath purchased with HIS OWN BLOOD.*

_Who shed His blood?  JESUS! _ 
**************************************
John 4:24   God is a SPIRIT: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.
**************************************
John 14:7-9  If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have *seen* him. 

Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 

Jesus saith unto him, *Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?* he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
**************************************
Roman 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.  Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.  (Hmmm...:scratchch:  sounds like one in the same to me!   )

_How about this:_ Matt. 1:18.....Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the HOLY GHOST.....vs.20.....Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the HOLY GHOST.....

_So why isn't Jesus called the Son of the Holy Ghost? Hmm..:scratchch:_**************************************
Matt. 28:18, Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the _name_(SINGULAR) of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
**************************************

_If they are three 'persons' why doesn't the scripture say names?  There is one name, you know.  Let's go to the book of Acts:  _ 

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and *be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ* for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

_This was a command, not a bapitismal service._
**************************************

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to *be baptized in the name of the Lord*. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
**************************************
Acts 19:5  When they heard this, they were *baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus*.

**************************************
_The thing to remember is the Jesus was all of God and all of man.  He prayed and cried and laughed as a man.  He healed, calmed the storm and raised the dead as God._

Col. 2:9 For in him dwelleth *all* the fulness of the Godhead bodily...

_The trinity was created by Constantine.  Do a study and find the origin of  the concept of the TRINITY.  _


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 25, 2005)

Thanks for the scriptures onepraying. I'm going to check those out. 

So are you saying that there is not a Trinity?


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## stcsweet (Mar 25, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> Here's my dilemma...if they are all the same, then how can they be so different?



*Much the same as why water, ice, and steam are the same and also are different.
Each serves a particular purpose - just like the Father, the Son, and the Holy
Spirit each serves particular purpose. 

Check out one example of this in 2 Cor. 13:14*
_*The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, 
and the love of God, and the fellowship of the 
Holy Spirit, be with you all.*_



			
				DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> And if there are levels of subordination, then how are they all the same?
> 
> Jesus DIED. He was DEAD for 3 days.
> 
> ...



*This doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit did not exist before Jesus was crucified. Genesis 1:26 states that God the Father/Creator used the words 'us' and 'our'. *  

_*Genesis 1:26
Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, 
according to Our likeness; and let them rule over 
the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and 
over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every 
creeping thing that creeps on the earth."*_


*We know that we were not created in the image of angels, so this had to be the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in existence from the beginning. * 




			
				DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> Yet they are all God?



*Jesus, Himself equated himself with God, the Father in  John 8:58*
_*Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, 
before Abraham was born, I am."*_

*This is the same thing that God said to Moses in Exodus 3:14*
_*God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and 
He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 
'I AM has sent me to you.'*_

*Also, read Acts 5:3-4*
_*But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your 
heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back 
some of the price of the land? 
"While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? 
And after it was sold, was it not under your control? 
Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? 
You have not lied to men but to God."*_

*Who did Ananias lie to? Peter says the Holy Spirit; God.*


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## onepraying (Mar 25, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> Thanks for the scriptures onepraying. I'm going to check those out.
> 
> So are you saying that there is not a Trinity?



No problem....  Yes ma'am, that's exactly what I am saying.  

Do a study on the origin.  It was made up to bring in the pagans, because _They_ worshipped 3 gods.  The Pharisees wanted to stone Jesus for  making himself God  (John 10:30-36)


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## stcsweet (Mar 25, 2005)

onepraying said:
			
		

> No problem....  Yes ma'am, that's exactly what I am saying.
> 
> Do a study on the origin.  It was made up to bring in the pagans, because _They_ worshipped 3 gods.  The Pharisees wanted to stone Jesus for  making himself God  (John 10:30-36)



*Obviously, term 'trinity' is not in the bible. However, the is the best term that Christians have found to describe the nature of our single God in three distinct persons (not 3 gods).

Are you proposing a different way to describe God in three distinct persons? 

Are we debating the term instead of the doctrine?*


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 25, 2005)

@stcsweet...I think so. 

The term Trinity, as I was always taught, meant that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit were all the same.

Though they come from the same SPIRIT (God), they do not appear to be the same to me all of the time, but sometimes they do. I still have A LOT of studying to do. 

From reading, it looks like people all have different meanings for the Trinity. Sometimes it's 3 in 1...sometimes it's 1 in 3.


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## stcsweet (Mar 25, 2005)

It sounds like your questions are pushing us all to study. This is definitely a good thing. I've actually learned quite a bit over the past week!

Thanks for asking and keep the questions coming.


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## BlkHoneyLuv2U (Mar 25, 2005)

onepraying said:
			
		

> No.  God is one God; Jesus Christ is God Almighty.. He's God in work clothes. God in the flesh.
> 
> There are different roles of God that He "plays" There is ONE that sits on the throne. You will not see 3 different persons:
> 
> ...


 
I am in total agreement with you and would like to add this scripture from
 1st Timothy 3:16 _"and without controversey great is the mystery of godliness: *God was manifest in the flesh,* justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."_
_Also look at John 1:1-14  
Joh 1:1 *In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God*. 

Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. 

Joh 1:3 *All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.* 

Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 

Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 

Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Joh 1:10 *He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.* 

Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 

Joh 1:14 *And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.*

_


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## Poohbear (Mar 25, 2005)

onepraying said:
			
		

> No problem.... Yes ma'am, that's exactly what I am saying.
> 
> Do a study on the origin. It was made up to bring in the pagans, because _They_ worshipped 3 gods. The Pharisees wanted to stone Jesus for making himself God (John 10:30-36)


*But trinity doesn't mean 3 separate Gods!!!!  Yes God is the one Almighty God meaning there are no other gods like Buddha and other gods people worship today.  Trinity simply means three-in-one...God as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.... not three separate Gods!!!  *


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## Poohbear (Mar 25, 2005)

*Thanks for posting this scripture!  This shows that there is such thing as trinity! *


			
				ladydee36330 said:
			
		

> I am in total agreement with you and would like to add this scripture from
> 1st Timothy 3:16 _"and without controversey great is the mystery of godliness: *God was manifest in the flesh,* justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."_
> _Also look at John 1:1-14 _
> _Joh 1:1 *In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God*.
> ...


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## Poohbear (Mar 25, 2005)

stcsweet said:
			
		

> *Obviously, term 'trinity' is not in the bible. However, the is the best term that Christians have found to describe the nature of our single God in three distinct persons (not 3 gods).*
> 
> *Are you proposing a different way to describe God in three distinct persons? *
> 
> *Are we debating the term instead of the doctrine?*


*I agree! I would like to know as well.*


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## BlkHoneyLuv2U (Mar 25, 2005)

No trinity is not in the Bible but then again, neither is the word Rapture. I guess I say again *I guess* these are man made terms to explain something our limited human mind cannot explain. Poobear, how does the scriptures I posted confirm a trinity? I ask because I never saw it this way. Do tell.


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 25, 2005)

So Jesus prayed to Himself?

Background info on why I got interested in this. Every since I was a little girl, I was confused about who I was praying to. Was I supposed to pray to God, and end the prayer in Jesus name so it would reach God? Was I praying to Jesus who was also God? Did it matter? 

I'm glad to know I'm not the only one confused. Looks like the Trinity is another one of those "Hell" and "Free Will" topics that takes on lots of different interpretations.


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## Poohbear (Mar 25, 2005)

ladydee36330 said:
			
		

> Poobear, how does the scriptures I posted confirm a trinity? I ask because I never saw it this way. Do tell.


Timothy: God was manifest in the flesh *(God as Jesus in human form)*, justified in the Spirit *(the Holy Spirit), *seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

Also look at John 1:1-14 
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. *The Word is Jesus, Jesus was with God when He created the world!!!*

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. *The Word (Jesus) was made flesh (human), to live among us!!!*


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## BlkHoneyLuv2U (Mar 25, 2005)

Delightfulflam, if you are confused, ask God for guidance and clarification on the matter. Let Him give you the understanding your soul craves. These man made terms, I myself put no store in them whatso ever. Ask God to reveal His truth to you and believe me when He does this for you, nobody and I mean nobody will be able to sway you from that truth. Be blessed sister and keep praying, lookin up and believing.


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## stcsweet (Mar 25, 2005)

ladydee36330 said:
			
		

> No trinity is not in the Bible but then again, neither is the word Rapture. I guess I say again *I guess* these are man made terms to explain something our limited human mind cannot explain.



 *ITA.

Furthermore, the word 'bible' is not even in the bible. So, we could go round-and-round on that point. 

What's important is that God is a single God with 3 distinct persons. Each person of our single God relates to us differently. *


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## BlkHoneyLuv2U (Mar 25, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> Timothy: God was manifest in the flesh *(God as Jesus in human form)*, justified in the Spirit *(the Holy Spirit), *seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
> 
> Also look at John 1:1-14
> John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. *The Word is Jesus, Jesus was with God when He created the world!!!*
> ...


Okay, I see we are on the same track just different denominations. Its just that you apply the term Trinity and I believe in the Oneness of God. I believe in Jesus as fully human yet fully God.


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## stcsweet (Mar 25, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> So Jesus prayed to Himself?



*As one like us, while on the earth, Jesus learned how to pray to the Father. So, God (the Father) had God the Son (Jesus) praying to Him. Once again, this is a single God with distinct persons.*



			
				DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> Background info on why I got interested in this. Every since I was a little girl, I was confused about who I was praying to. Was I supposed to pray to God, and end the prayer in Jesus name so it would reach God? Was I praying to Jesus who was also God? Did it matter?



*I have also questioned this in the past. Pray about any uneasiness you may feel around this, then do what the Spirit leads you to do.  Ephesians 5:20 says*
_*...always giving thanks for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father;*_



			
				DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> I'm glad to know I'm not the only one confused. Looks like the Trinity is another one of those "Hell" and "Free Will" topics that takes on lots of different interpretations.



 *You are right on point.*


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 25, 2005)

What about these?

John 14
 28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Plus, if God is Spirit, then how could Jesus be God? (flesh)

John 4
24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
-----------------------------------------------------

Just adding this from the other thread b/c it is worth further study to me...

1 John 5 (NIV)
7For there are three that testify: 8the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

[a]Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century) 
--------------------------------------------------

Jesus did say that He and God are one. But He didn't say what that one was. 

John 10
   30I and my Father are one.

----------------------------------------------------

Interesting scripture...makes God and Lord two different things. I always thought they were the same, but apparently not. I guess now I need to find out what the difference is b/c they look similar in that all things are in them, but yet they are made different in that they are mentioned separately.

1 Corinthians 8
   5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 
   6But to us there is but *one God, the Father, *of whom are all things, and we in him; and *one Lord Jesus Christ*, by whom are all things, and we by him. 

----------------------------------------

According to this, Jesus came from the Father. So it becomes a question of who came first, the chicken or the egg?  The Son or the Father?

John 16
27For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. 
28I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. 
----------------------------------------------------------

In this scripture, it appears that Christ was created from God and everything else was created in Christ. 

Colossians
13For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14in whom we have redemption,[e] the forgiveness of sins. 

The Supremacy of Christ 
   15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. 

----------------------------------------------------
See this is where I get tripped up. Notice it calls Jesus "man".

1 Timothy 2
   5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


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## stcsweet (Mar 25, 2005)

ladydee36330 said:
			
		

> I believe in Jesus as fully human yet fully God.



*I believe the same. Again, it sounds like the terms are the only thing that's different...not the doctrine.*


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## Poohbear (Mar 25, 2005)

ladydee36330 said:
			
		

> Okay, I see we are on the same track just different denominations. Its just that you apply the term Trinity and I believe in the Oneness of God. I believe in Jesus as fully human yet fully God.


*I believe in the oneness of God (no other gods like Budha, Hindu gods, etc.) and I believe Jesus was fully human and fully divine too!   So that's why I don't see why you don't believe in trinity.  Your beliefs explain trinity.  *

*Yes, the word "trinity" isn't in the Bible.  It's just a concept used to explain something in the Bible. There's other concepts that are man-made terms that are used to explain things in the Bible such as Messianic Secret and the Golden Rule and Transfiguration... I can't think of any others.*

*Btw, I grew up in a Baptist denomination.   What is your denomination???*


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## Poohbear (Mar 25, 2005)

*Definition of Trinity from NIV Bible: the Christian doctrine of God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, three-in-one.
*simple as that... nothing more, nothing less! 

Other verses referencing to Trinity as defined...

In the name of Trinity: Matthew 28:16-20
Blessing of Trinity: 2 Corinthians 13:14
Trinity in salvation: Titus 3:3-8 and Jude 20-21*


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 25, 2005)

More scriptures that further confuse things. 

John 14
24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. 

28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. 

-------------------------------------------------
So if Christ is God, then He is the head of Himself? 

1 Corinthians 11
   3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 
-------------------------------------------------------

If they are the same, then why are they separated. Here again, there is God and Jesus is Lord. I've got to look into this Lord title, because it appears to be different, but similar to God. 

Ephesians 1
17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 

--------------------------------------------

Ephesians 1
  3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 25, 2005)

Matthew 28
   18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 
   19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 


If Jesus is God, then why did He have to be given power?


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## BlkHoneyLuv2U (Mar 25, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> *I believe in the oneness of God (no other gods like Budha, Hindu gods, etc.) and I believe Jesus was fully human and fully divine too!  So that's why I don't see why you don't believe in trinity. Your beliefs explain trinity. *
> 
> *Yes, the word "trinity" isn't in the Bible. It's just a concept used to explain something in the Bible. There's other concepts that are man-made terms that are used to explain things in the Bible such as Messianic Secret and the Golden Rule and Transfiguration... I can't think of any others.*
> 
> *Btw, I grew up in a Baptist denomination.  What is your denomination???*


 
I am oneness apostolic/pentecostal. I believe in, preach(should say witness) and teach on what the apostles believed, preached and taught. I grew up in an AME church and thought I really believed in God but found out that I did not really believetill many years later when I had a Damascus Road encounter with Him. Since that meeting, I havent been back to a trinity believing church. My mother is Baptist and if her soul is being fed there then I say good for her and go with it. But its just not for me.


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 25, 2005)

Woa...thoroughly confused now. Will be praying and meditating on these.  My head hurts right now.

Jesus prayed to the father...the father is going to send the spirit...Jesus is coming to us (spirit). Goodness!

John 14
 16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 
   17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 
   18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


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## Poohbear (Mar 25, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> What about these?
> 
> John 14
> 28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------


*When Jesus said "I will come to you" he meant it. Although Jesus ascended to heaven, he sent the Holy Spirit to live in believers, and to have the Holy Spirit is to have Jesus himself.*



> Plus, if God is Spirit, then how could Jesus be God? (flesh)
> 
> John 4
> 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
> -----------------------------------------------------


*"God is a Spirit" means he is not a physical being (human) limited to one space.  He is present everywhere and he can be worshipped anywhere, anytime. Do you remember when I said this in another thread?  *



> Just adding this from the other thread b/c it is worth further study to me...
> 
> 1 John 5 (NIV)
> 7For there are three that testify: 8the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
> ...


 *Jesus Christ came by water and blood may refer to Jesus' baptism and his crucifixion. At this time, there was a false teaching in circulation that said Jesus was God only between his baptism and his death--that is, he was born merely human until he was baptiszed, at which time "the Christ" then descended upon him, but then later left him before his death on the cross.  But if Jesus died only as a man, he could not have taken upon himself the sins of the world, and Christianity would be an empty religion. Only an act of God could take away the punishment we deserve for our sin.  *Read that VERY carefully*  *



> Jesus did say that He and God are one. But He didn't say what that one was.
> 
> John 10
> 30I and my Father are one.
> ...


*This is the clearest statement of Jesus' divinity he ever made. Jesus and his Father are not the same person, but they are one in essence and nature.  Thus Jesus is not merely a good teacher--he is God. His claim to be God was unmistakable. The religious leaders wanted to kill him for it, b/c their laws said that anyone claiming to be God should die. Nothing could  persuade them that Jesus' claim was true.*

*I'll get back wit u on the rest of the scriptures u mentioned. Hope that helps!!! *


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## Poohbear (Mar 25, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> Interesting scripture...makes God and Lord two different things. I always thought they were the same, but apparently not. I guess now I need to find out what the difference is b/c they look similar in that all things are in them, but yet they are made different in that they are mentioned separately.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 8
> 5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
> ...


*Paul addressed these words in verses 4 thru 9 to believers who weren't bothered by eating meat that had been sacrificed to idols. Although idols were not real, and the pagan ritual of sacrificing them was meaningless, eating such meat offended Christians with more sensitive consciences. Paul said, therefore, the weaker or less mature believers misunderstood their actions, they should, out of consideration, avoid eating meat offered by idols.*



> According to this, Jesus came from the Father. So it becomes a question of who came first, the chicken or the egg? The Son or the Father?
> 
> John 16
> 27For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
> ...


*In the passage John 16:17-33, Jesus is teaching about using his name in prayer. In the verse you mentioned here, Jesus is talking about a new relationship between the believer and God.  Previously, people approached God through priests. After Jesus' resurrection, any believer could approach God directly (through prayer).  A new day has dawned and now al believers are priests (meaning all believers can approach God like priests did), talking with God pesonally and directly (see Hebrews 10:19-23). We approach God, not because of our own merit, but because Jesus, our great High Priest, has made us acceptable to God.*



> In this scripture, it appears that Christ was created from God and everything else was created in Christ.
> 
> Colossians
> 13For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14in whom we have redemption,[e] the forgiveness of sins.


*The Colossians feared the unseen forces of darkness, Paul says that true believers have been transferred from darkness to light, from slavery to freedom, from guilt to forgiveness, and from the power of Satan to the power of God. We have been resuced from a rebel kingdom to serve the rightful King. Our conduct should reflect our new allegiance (our alliance with Jesus).*



> See this is where I get tripped up. Notice it calls Jesus "man".
> 
> 1 Timothy 2
> 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


*We human beings are separated from God by sin, and only one person in the universe is our mediator and can stand between us and bring us together again--that person being JESUS...who is both God and man. Jesus' sacrifice (giving up his life for us on the cross) brought new life to all mankind.  *

*I'll get back with you on the Colossians verse I took out.  I gotta do some more studying and research. It's gonna be a long post.  *


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## Poohbear (Mar 25, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> More scriptures that further confuse things.
> 
> John 14
> 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
> ...


*As God the Son, Jesus willingly submits to God the Father. On earth, Jesus also submitted to many of the physical limitations of being human. See, God is not limited to physical space.*



> So if Christ is God, then He is the head of Himself?
> 
> 1 Corinthians 11
> 3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
> -------------------------------------------------------


*In the phrase "the head of the woman is a man" head is not used to indicate control or supremacy, rather, "the source of". Because man was created first, the woman derives her existence from man, as man does from Christ, and Christ from God. Paul was evidently correcting some excesses in worship that the emancipated Corinthian woman had engaged in.*



> Ephesians 1
> 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:


*Heaven is where God is, right? "All spiritual blessings in heavenly places" means all the good things God gives us--salvation, the gifts of the Spirit, power to do God's will, the hope of living forever with Christ. Because we have an intimate relationship with Christ, we can enjoy these blessings now. Christ has a victorious, exalted role as ruler of all.*


> If they are the same, then why are they separated. Here again, there is God and Jesus is Lord. I've got to look into this Lord title, because it appears to be different, but similar to God.
> 
> Ephesians 1
> 17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
> ...


*Paul prayed that the Ephesians might really understand who Christ is.  I'm sure it's hard for us today to understand who Christ is as well. Christ is our model, and the more we know him, the more we will be like him.  Study Jesus' life in the Bible to see what was like on earth about 2000 years ago and get to know him in prayer.  Personal knowledge of Jesus is life changing!*

*Hope that helps!!!  *


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## Poohbear (Mar 25, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> Matthew 28
> 18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
> 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
> 
> ...


*God gave Jesus authority over heaven and earth. On the basis of that authority, Jesus told his disciples to make more disciples as they preached, baptized, and taught. With this same authority, Jesus still commands us to tell others the Gospel and make them disciples for the Kingdom.*
*When someone is dying or leaving us, his/her last words are usually very important. Jesus left the disciples with these last words of instruction: they were under his authority; they were to make more disciples; they were to baptize and teach them to obey him; he would be with them always. Whereas in previous missions Jesus had sent his disciples only to the Jews, their mission from now on would be worldwide. Jesus is Lord on earth, and he died for the sins of people from ALL nations.*
*We are to go as well and make disciples...whether it's next door or to another country.  It is not an option, but a command to all who call Jesus "Lord". We are not all evangelists, but we have all received gifts that we can use in helping to fulfill the Great Commission. As we obey we have comfort in the knowledge that Jesus is always with us.*


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## Poohbear (Mar 25, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> Woa...thoroughly confused now. Will be praying and meditating on these. My head hurts right now.
> 
> Jesus prayed to the father...the father is going to send the spirit...Jesus is coming to us (spirit). Goodness!
> 
> ...


*Jesus says these verses when he promises the Holy Spirit. Jesus was soon going to leave the disciples when he said these verses, but he remain with them, how? The Comforter--the Spirit of God himself (the Holy Spirit)--would come after Jesus was gone to care for and guide the disciples. This happened to the disciples just before his ascension (going up into heaven) and to all the believers at Pentecost, shortly after Jesus ascended to heaven. The Holy Spirit is the very presence of God within us and all believers, helping us live as God wants and building Christ's church on earth. By faith we can appropriate his power each day.  *
*The word translated Comforter combines the ideas of comfort and counsel. The Holy Spirit is a powerful person (not physical) on our side, working for and with us.*

*Here are some truths about the Holy Spirit:*
*he will never leave us*
*the world at large cannot recognize him*
*he lives with us and in us*
*he teaches us*
*he reminds us of Jesus' words*
*he reproves us of sin, shows us God's righteousness, and announces God's judgement of evil*
*he guides into trith and gives sight into future events*
*he glorifies Christ*
*he has been active among people fron the beginning of time, but after Pentecost, he came to live in all believers*

*Many people are unaware of the Holy Spirit's activities, but to those who receive Christ's word and understand the Spirit's power, he gives a whole new way to look at life.*

*I hope that helps you understand the Holy Spirit.  Does that give you a better idea??? Wheww!!! *


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## Poohbear (Mar 25, 2005)

ladydee36330 said:
			
		

> I am oneness apostolic/pentecostal. I believe in, preach(should say witness) and teach on what the apostles believed, preached and taught. I grew up in an AME church and thought I really believed in God but found out that I did not really believetill many years later when I had a Damascus Road encounter with Him. Since that meeting, I havent been back to a trinity believing church. My mother is Baptist and if her soul is being fed there then I say good for her and go with it. But its just not for me.


*Oh okay. So it's the denominational beliefs that play a role in interpretation of the Bible.  *


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## BlkHoneyLuv2U (Mar 25, 2005)

No my beliefs are not based on denomiation but on the Word of God.


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## GoingBack (Mar 25, 2005)

Thank you for that explanation. I have always wondered about the Trinity, but thought that I would sound stupid if I asked. 





			
				JuJuBoo said:
			
		

> Yes there's a Trinity. Here's some scriptural reference.
> 
> Colossians 1:15-23
> The Supremacy of Christ
> ...


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## Poohbear (Mar 25, 2005)

ladydee36330 said:
			
		

> No my beliefs are not based on denomiation but on the Word of God.


*My beliefs are based on the Word of God as well.   The Holy Bible reveals God as the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.  How do you see it???*


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## Leslie_C (Mar 25, 2005)

I too am confused about the trinity. How can God also be his own son? It just doesnt make sense.  We worship our Father who is God. Jesus is his son, we dont worship Jesus, we worship God. And if they are one in the same then why are they addressed differently by name?  and isnt Gods name Jehovah? If this is his name, then how can he be called Jesus?

Now I am not one who really knows the bible because I wasnt brought up in Church but we studied the bible at home and that was always one of the most controversal issues among the family bc my grandfather on my dads side was a pentecostal (sp) preacher, and strongly believed in the trinity. My parents are both religous, but dont really believe in going to church because most churches where we lived were more politics than religion.  My mom always says that the bible says "were two or more people gather in my name" is considered church.

But back to my point, I can in no way imagine how God, Jesus, and the Holy spirit can all be the same person. I know that I do need to start learning my bible though, I just dont know where to begin, its so overwhelming.


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## stcsweet (Mar 25, 2005)

There is a great hymn, "Holy, Holy, Holy" that includes the phrase, 'God in 3 persons. Blessed Trinity.' 

This song has been going through my mind and touches my heart many times.

The concept of God being the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (described as the 'trinity' by Christians) is something that I'm not sure anyone really truly understands - in their mind. Our minds are very intricate and logical (most of the time). It's natural for humans to want to understand everything with our minds. 

It's natural to hear, "I don't get it", "How can that be?", "I just don't understand", "I'm confused". This is normal! (believe it or not).

I've prayed about this very topic before. As I've studied before and study now, I feel warmth in my heart around the topic. I feel a comfort in my spirit about this topic. I can't explain this very well, but that's how I feel. I'm very sure that this is God (the Holy Spirit person) that is relating this comfort to me around the topic.

Lean on prayer with this. Keep asking questions. One day, you too will feel that comfort around the topic. It may not be this week, this month, or even this year...but, one day it will happen.

May God continue to help your spirit understand the things your mind currently can't.


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## JuJuBoo (Mar 26, 2005)

stcsweet said:
			
		

> There is a great hymn, "Holy, Holy, Holy" that includes the phrase, 'God in 3 persons. Blessed Trinity.'
> 
> This song has been going through my mind and touches my heart many times.
> 
> ...



Amen sister! 

I think God in 3 persons is something that we can't FULLY understand. It's like the question that kids ask "If God created everything, where did God come from." And grownups answer "He's God, so He's always been there. He's just God." Knowing fully well, in OUR minds we're like "Dang, what was God doing before he created everything? Just chillin?"   There are several things about God that we'll NEVER FULLY understand or grasp. The bible says "God's ways our not our ways, and His thoughts are not our thoughts." The concept of the Trinity is just another one of those questions I'll be asking Him when I get to Heaven, next to "Why is my hair different?" heheheh  For now, I have complete PEACE knowing God's word is true, and what he say's is true.


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## Poohbear (Mar 26, 2005)

Very well said stcsweet!


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 26, 2005)

So here's what I got from the scriptures and the postings and some other sites. This is my interpretation. I'm going to try to keep it simple b/c it can get so confusing. I do not believe that scripture supports a Trinity. 

*God is the Father. He is the SOURCE. He is THE God. He doesn't have a God besides Himself. (1 Cor 8:6, 1 Tim. 2:5, Isaiah 44:8)

*Jesus, the Son, is the PATH or the WAY to God.  All things were made THROUGH Jesus.  (Colossians 14-17, 1 Cor 8:6)

It's kindof like me being human. We wouldn't expect my mom, being human, to have a cat for a daughter. So why would we expect God, being God, not to have a God for a son? So Jesus is man and God.

*Is Jesus God?  Yes. (Phil. 2:6, Heb 1:8)

*Is Jesus the Father? No. Jesus, unlike God, has a God- the Father. Jesus called the Father the one true, good God. (John 17:3, Mark 10:18, 1 Cor 15:21-28)

*So then we tackle the scripture, John 1:1. The word was with God and the word was God. Yes. But it was not the Father. Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God, but Jesus is not/was not the Father. 

*Jesus does the Father's will. I haven't read of the Father doing Jesus's will. 

*From what I can tell, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of Jesus and the Father. (John 14:23) It is not a 3rd, separate person. It is the Spirit of Truth, and Jesus said the He was the way, the truth, and the life. (John 14:6, John 16:13-15; John 14:18, John 14:20, John 14:26-27, John 16:7) 

*Do we worship Jesus? He was worshipped in the bible. (Matthew 8:2, Matthew 9:18, Matthew 15:25)


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## Poohbear (Mar 26, 2005)

*Well DelightfulFlame...if you don't believe in God as the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit...then let it be your belief. I tried to breakdown those verses for you. Are you just posting scriptures to try to show how confusing the Bible is or are you trying to understand them? The Bible mentions God as the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit several times. That is all that is meant by the term trinity. *


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## stcsweet (Mar 26, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> So here's what I got from the scriptures and the postings and some other sites. This is my interpretation. I'm going to try to keep it simple b/c it can get so confusing. I do not believe that scripture supports a Trinity.
> 
> *God is the Father. He is the SOURCE. He is THE God. He doesn't have a God besides Himself. (1 Cor 8:6, 1 Tim. 2:5, Isaiah 44:8)



*This actually supports the Trinity. There is a single God - that was never the issue. *



			
				DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> *Jesus, the Son, is the PATH or the WAY to God.  All things were made THROUGH Jesus.  (Colossians 14-17, 1 Cor 8:6)



*The complete text of 1Cor 8:6 states:*
_*yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. * _ 

*Scripture uses the terms God and Lord interchangeably. The Father is called both 'God' and 'Lord', and the Son is referred to by both terms. Therefore, this verse described two of the persons of our single God.*



			
				DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> *So Jesus is man and God.
> 
> *Is Jesus God?  Yes. (Phil. 2:6, Heb 1:8)



*Correct. This supports the Trinity, as well. God is one and has 3 distinct persons, Father, Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit.*



			
				DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> **Is Jesus the Father? No. Jesus, unlike God, has a God- the Father. Jesus called the Father the one true, good God. (John 17:3, Mark 10:18, 1 Cor 15:21-28)



*The complete text of John 17:3 states:*
_*This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.*_

*If Jesus' reference to the Father as "the only true God" were meant to exclude the Son from deity, then the same principle of interpretation would have to apply to Jude 4*
_*For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.*_

*where Jesus Christ is called "our only Master and Lord". This would have to exclude the Father from Lordship and Mastership. Also, the Holy Spirit is called "Lord" at 2 Corinthians 3:17*
_*Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.*_

*Therefore, in these 3 examples, the world "only" does not rule out any of the 3 persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) of our single God.*




			
				DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> *So then we tackle the scripture, John 1:1. The word was with God and the word was God. Yes. But it was not the Father. Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God, but Jesus is not/was not the Father.



*Correct. This supports the Trinity, as well. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Father, and neither of them is the Holy Spirit. The Father is God, the Son (Jesus) is God, and the Holy Spirit is God...a single God, with 3 distinct persons.  * 



			
				DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> *Jesus does the Father's will. I haven't read of the Father doing Jesus's will.



*Me, either.*  



			
				DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> *From what I can tell, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of Jesus and the Father. (John 14:23) It is not a 3rd, separate person. It is the Spirit of Truth, and Jesus said the He was the way, the truth, and the life. (John 14:6, John 16:13-15; John 14:18, John 14:20, John 14:26-27, John 16:7)



*I don't see proof in those scriptures that the Holy Spirit is not a person of God. Again, read Acts 5:3-4*
_*But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your 
heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back 
some of the price of the land? 
"While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? 
And after it was sold, was it not under your control? 
Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? 
You have not lied to men but to God."*_

*Who did Ananias lie to? Peter says the Holy Spirit; God.
You can't lie to a force, but you can lie to a person - a person of our single God*



			
				DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> *Do we worship Jesus? He was worshipped in the bible. (Matthew 8:2, Matthew 9:18, Matthew 15:25)



 * Please clarify the relevance of this comment to whether or not a trinity exists.*


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 26, 2005)

stcsweet said:
			
		

> *This actually supports the Trinity. There is a single God - that was never the issue. *
> 
> But I don't see a single God. I see God, the Father. And I see Jesus, also God, the Son. I don't see them as the same God. They are separate.
> 
> ...



The comment about worship was in reference to my earlier post when I didn't know who to pray to, and what the significance was of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. How do we relate to them, etc.


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 26, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> *Well DelightfulFlame...if you don't believe in God as the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit...then let it be your belief. I tried to breakdown those verses for you. Are you just posting scriptures to try to show how confusing the Bible is or are you trying to understand them? The Bible mentions God as the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit several times. That is all that is meant by the term trinity. *



Thanks Poohbear for posting your breakdowns. I just don't see what you see in some of them. I never post scripture just for the sake of posting. Yes, I try to understand them. I guess we get different things out of them. Thanks again.


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## stcsweet (Mar 26, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> But I don't see a single God. I see God, the Father. And I see Jesus, also God, the Son. I don't see them as the same God. They are separate.




Just confirming, do you see 2 gods, instead of a single God?


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 26, 2005)

stcsweet said:
			
		

> Just confirming, do you see 2 gods, instead of a single God?



Yep. I think I do. They have the same goals. But one is the source (Father) and the other is the way (Son).


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## JenJen2721 (Mar 28, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> Yep. I think I do. They have the same goals. But one is the source (Father) and the other is the way (Son).



Hi Delightful Flame, 

Please share your thoughts on the following scriptures.  To me, they prove that there is only ONE God. Let me know what you think.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5For even if there are socalled gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. 

Isaiah 43:10 10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: *before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.*

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 
John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

(These two scriptures prove that Jesus and God are the same.)


Here Paul speaks about God, not "Gods":
Galatians 4:8-9
8Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9But now that you know God–or rather are known by God–how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?


I'll try to find more...


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 28, 2005)

Hey Jen!



> 1 Corinthians 8:5-6
> 5For even if there are socalled gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6yet for us there is *but one God, the Father,* from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.



This isn't saying that there aren't many gods. It is saying that only ONE is the Father...the source.  Obviously there are many Gods because even we are gods according to scripture (sons/daughters of God)...
*
Psalm 82
6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. *


*John 10
33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 
34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 
35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 
36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 
37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.*

Notice that Jesus never claimed to be the Father. 

*Isaiah 43
10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 
11I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. *

God, the Father, is the source. There is no other source. I agree. However, Jesus is savior...THROUGH the Father. The Father is the source. Whatever power, strength, etc. I have comes FROM the Father THROUGH Jesus. There is no other God of my life, other than the same God that was the God of Jesus, the FATHER. 

This passage also reads (to me) that outside of God, there are no other Gods formed. None before Him or after Him...outside of Him. Jesus and God's other children are formed by Him. 



> John 1:1
> In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
> John 1:14
> And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.



These scriptures and others do show that Jesus is God. But they do NOT show that Jesus is the Father. Jesus had a God, the Father. Whatever Jesus got and was, He obtained it from the Father. However, the Father does not have a God. He is it. 



> Galatians 4:8-9
> 8Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9But now that you know God–or rather are known by God–how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?



Most scripture does speak about God...the Father/Source. Even Jesus did. I don't see the relevance of this one.


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## JenJen2721 (Mar 28, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> Hey Jen!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The bible makes a distinction between a god and God.  Why do you think the bible capitalizes God sometimes and not others?  I believe it's making a distinction.  Like a word that is spelled the same, but means different things.  (I think that's a synonym...I forgot most of my grammar stuff.)

  When the bible states that there are gods (with a little g), it speaks of either things people worship (idols) or in the instance that we are gods, it means that we have the power to do God's work in us, but that we are not God, himself. 

I don't think the bible ever calls Jesus a god.  It says that Jesus was God...and that there is only ONE God. 

Does that make sense?


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## JenJen2721 (Mar 28, 2005)

> Quote:
> John 1:1
> In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
> John 1:14
> ...



You confuse me here.  You say that Jesus _had_ a God, but the scripture in John 1 says that Jesus WAS God.  It doesn't say that Jesus _had_ a God.


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 28, 2005)

Jesus had a God...in other scriptures posted earlier, Jesus said that the Father was His God. I'll find them in a minute. 

Yes, it does say that Jesus was God. But it never said that Jesus was the Father. Jesus said He was equal to God, but was clear that everything He had, including all of His power, was given to Him by God, the Father.


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 28, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> So here's what I got from the scriptures and the postings and some other sites. This is my interpretation. I'm going to try to keep it simple b/c it can get so confusing. I do not believe that scripture supports a Trinity.
> 
> *God is the Father. He is the SOURCE. He is THE God. He doesn't have a God besides Himself. (1 Cor 8:6, 1 Tim. 2:5, Isaiah 44:8)
> 
> ...



Here are the scriptures again.


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## JenJen2721 (Mar 28, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> Jesus had a God...in other scriptures posted earlier, Jesus said that the Father was His God. I'll find them in a minute.
> 
> Yes, it does say that Jesus was God. But it never said that Jesus was the Father. Jesus said He was equal to God, but was clear that everything He had, including all of His power, was given to Him by God, the Father.



So you think that there was a God, the Father and a God the Son, but that they're not the same? Although the bible states that there is only one God...with a capital G.  Are there any scriptures that states that there is more than one God? not god.  Do you see the distinction?  Otherwise the bible contradicts itself, right?


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 28, 2005)

girl, I dunno. I'm still trying to put it together myself. Which is why I said I think. 

If there is one God, then who woke Jesus up when He was DEAD for 3 days?


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## JenJen2721 (Mar 28, 2005)

This is one of the main scriptures I've been searching for:

John 10:29-30
29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[a]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one.” 

Jesus clearly states in this scripture that he and the Father are one.


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## JenJen2721 (Mar 28, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> girl, I dunno. I'm still trying to put it together myself. Which is why I said I think.
> 
> If there is one God, then who woke Jesus up when He was DEAD for 3 days?



This is how I explain it...Jesus was both man and God, so therefore he had to have all the attributes that we have...so God the Father woke up Jesus the man.

Let me know what you think.
--J


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 28, 2005)

Nope. I don't get that. You have ONE God...who dies. 

1) How does God die? If Jesus=God=Holy Spirit = ONE GOD, then when one dies they all die...because they are one. 

2) How does the dead God wake Himself up?


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## stcsweet (Mar 28, 2005)

This is why there is are 3 distinct persons of our single God.

God is, was, and always will be. God doesn't die. *One* of the persons of God was a physical human being (Jesus) who died and was raised from the dead. Things of the earth die, God doesn't. 

Hope that helps...


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 28, 2005)

Thanks hon. But that still makes no sense to me. God, the Father, died? Well if the Son is the Father, then that's what would have happened. The Trinity-- water, air, ice..."sounds" nice, but it makes no sense to me.


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## JenJen2721 (Mar 28, 2005)

stcsweet said:
			
		

> This is why there is are 3 distinct persons of our single God.
> 
> God is, was, and always will be. God doesn't die. *One* of the persons of God was a physical human being (Jesus) who died and was raised from the dead. Things of the earth die, God doesn't.
> 
> Hope that helps...



Right...the human part of God died.


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 28, 2005)

The human part of God? So God is not a man that He should lie (Numbers 23:19), but He is a man that He should die?


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## pebbles (Mar 28, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> The human part of God? So God is not a man that He should lie (Numbers 23:19), but He is a man that He should die?



Remember that Jesus is the word if God made flesh (a man) John 1:14. Since God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are the same, the word made flesh (Jesus) died on the cross, (and rose again! Something only God can do), but God the Father did not die. 

Christianity is the belief of God in three persons, not that He is three seperate Gods, but that He is one God in 3 forms. Yes, it's confusing to some and a difficult concept to grasp, but finite man will never fully understand an infinite God.  This, (the belief of one God in three distinct persons), is one of the greatest mysteries of our Christian faith, and where our personal faith in Christ comes to play. Has any of us ever seen Jesus, or the Holy Spirit? No. So how do most of us know that Jesus is God, or that He lived and died for our sins, and that the Holy Spirit is in fact the Spirit of God? The word of God says it, the Holy Spirit reveals it to us, and we believe by faith. 

It's important to understand that there will be questions to which you won't receive an answer that makes sense to you, but trust and believe, if you are of a heart to. In Luke 18: 15-17, Jesus tells us: "Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein." In other words, just as children are trusting and believe what is said to them, that is what God wants of us. Unconditional trust and belief in Him and His word.

This is what our Christian faith is built on: faith in what we haven't seen, but we know in our hearts that these are truths about God. How? Again, The Holy Spirit reveals it to us in the word and through prayer, and we believe.


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## mkstar826 (Mar 28, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> *I believe in the oneness of God (no other gods like Budha, Hindu gods, etc.) *


*

off topic slightly: Buddha wasn't and didn't claim to be a god. He was a teacher. There is no God in Buddhism.

back on topic: 

I read this whole topic and all I can say to the OP is pray about it and ask for clarity and understanding. There is a lot of human error when it comes to explaining the trinity and if it is or isn't valid. Since the term is not mentioned in the Bible, all one can do is study the origins of it and how it came to be such a prominent belief in Christianity. If you study that then it's clear that the validity of the trinity (or the 3 in 1 notion) is questionable. But that's hard for some to accept because that's all they know and have been taught. Bottom line is, humans twist and turn the Word to make it mean what THEY want it to mean. That's how two people can read the same scripture and see two totally different meanings. Interpretation is an extremely relative thing. As enlightening as this topic may be, relying on each other to explain this thing is only going to lead to more confusion because everyone has a different agenda.*


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## Poohbear (Mar 28, 2005)

mkstar826 said:
			
		

> off topic slightly: Buddha wasn't and didn't claim to be a god. He was a teacher. There is no God in Buddhism.


I was just making the point that God is the only God...no other gods. I know Buddhism doesn't have an actual God, but Buddha is their god (something they worshipped).



> I read this whole topic and all I can say to the OP is pray about it and ask for clarity and understanding. There is a lot of human error when it comes to explaining the trinity and if it is or isn't valid. *Since the term is not mentioned in the Bible, all one can do is study the origins of it and how it came to be such a prominent belief in Christianity. If you study that then it's clear that the validity of the trinity (or the 3 in 1 notion) is questionable. But that's hard for some to accept because that's all they know and have been taught. Bottom line is, humans twist and turn the Word to make it mean what THEY want it to mean. *That's how two people can read the same scripture and see two totally different meanings. Interpretation is an extremely relative thing. As enlightening as this topic may be, relying on each other to explain this thing is only going to lead to more confusion because everyone has a different agenda.


I agree (to what I put in bold)!


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## mkstar826 (Mar 28, 2005)

I understood your point but from what you said earlier and just now, I see that you are misunderstanding Buddhism because they don't worship Buddha...they don't pray to Buddha. He was/is not their God or god. So it really shouldn't be used in your argument.


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## Poohbear (Mar 28, 2005)

mkstar826 said:
			
		

> I understood your point but from what you said earlier and just now, I see that you are misunderstanding Buddhism because they don't worship Buddha...they don't pray to Buddha. He was/is not their God or god. So it really shouldn't be used in your argument.


*Oh okay.   Yeah, I don't know much about Buddha, so sorry for using Buddha in my argument. *


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## Poohbear (Mar 28, 2005)

*For those that don't believe in trinity...

What do you think about when you come across the phrase "God as the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit" in the Bible??? *


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## pebbles (Mar 29, 2005)

mkstar826 said:
			
		

> off topic slightly: Buddha wasn't and didn't claim to be a god. He was a teacher. There is no God in Buddhism.
> 
> back on topic:
> 
> I read this whole topic and all I can say to the OP is pray about it and ask for clarity and understanding. There is a lot of human error when it comes to explaining the trinity and if it is or isn't valid. Since the term is not mentioned in the Bible, all one can do is study the origins of it and how it came to be such a prominent belief in Christianity. If you study that then it's clear that the validity of the trinity (or the 3 in 1 notion) is questionable. But that's hard for some to accept because that's all they know and have been taught. Bottom line is, humans twist and turn the Word to make it mean what THEY want it to mean. That's how two people can read the same scripture and see two totally different meanings. Interpretation is an extremely relative thing. *As enlightening as this topic may be, relying on each other to explain this thing is only going to lead to more confusion because everyone has a different agenda.*



What "agenda" do we have here other than to fellowship together amongst other Christians and to discuss that Jesus Christ IS Lord? I'm not understanding that last phrase. Most of us here know and understand that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are one and the same. 
We don't really know how that is and cannot explain it enough for DF to understand it, and maybe she doesn't want to understand it, in which case there isn't anything anyone can say that she will believe or accept, but I'm glad that there are people willing to try. 

Ultimately, sisters, we can't talk such knowledge into anyone. Many great posts have been made trying to explain this phenomenon, but people need to be of a heart to receive what is being said, and if it appears that no matter what you say nothing is getting through, then the Holy Spirit has not yet revealed this to them, and it is through the power of the Holy Spirit alone that a person will come to accept that there are 3 persons in one God. I do agree that there is too much potential for confussion in some of these topics and that's not what we want, so if it looks like you aren't getting anywhere, make your statement and move on. Just pray that God will touch hearts and bring clarity where it is needed.


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## Poohbear (Mar 29, 2005)

pebbles said:
			
		

> What "agenda" do we have here other than to fellowship together amongst other Christians and to discuss that Jesus Christ IS Lord? I'm not understanding that last phrase. Most of us here know and understand that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are one and the same.
> We don't really know how that is and cannot explain it enough for DF to understand it, and maybe she doesn't want to understand it, in which case there isn't anything anyone can say that she will believe or accept, but I'm glad that there are people willing to try.
> 
> Ultimately, sisters, we can't talk such knowledge into anyone. Many great posts have been made trying to explain this phenomenon, but people need to be of a heart to receive what is being said, and if it appears that no matter what you say nothing is getting through, then the Holy Spirit has not yet revealed this to them, and it is through the power of the Holy Spirit alone that a person will come to accept that there are 3 persons in one God. I do agree that there is too much potential for confussion in some of these topics and that's not what we want, so if it looks like you aren't getting anywhere, make your statement and move on. Just pray that God will touch hearts and bring clarity where it is needed.


*I totally agree! *


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 29, 2005)

ETA: @Poohbear

1 John 5 (NIV)
7For there are three that testify: 8the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

[a]Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century) 
-------------------------------------------------

I post because I have questions, which I of course pray about, but I believe that God often times reveals things through people. So when I post, I'm looking for various points of views other than my own. It doesn't mean that I have to agree, because if my Spirit doesn't bear witness than it is discarded. And if I need clarification, then I ask for it. 

The fact that there is confusion regarding these topics is the exact reason why they need to be addressed. I agree that there is much mystery, and I'm not going to know everything in my time on earth. But that doesn't stop me from trying. In fact it is my duty to seek. The bible says to prove all things, study to show thyself approved, seek and you shall find, etc. So that's what I'm going to do until the day I die.

Thanks to all posters for your input. I realize that we all have different experiences (which is what I think mkstar meant by agendas), and we all may not agree. It does not, however, make your posts any less meaningful. And there may be even someone else out there that God is speaking to through your posts. 

I'm the type of person that enjoys the journey just as much or more than the destination, so again...while we may not always agree, it doesn't mean that the topic wasn't worth thinking about or that your posts weren't meaningful.


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## pebbles (Mar 29, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> ETA: @Poohbear
> 
> 1 John 5 (NIV)
> 7For there are three that testify: 8the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
> ...



How can your "spirit" bear witness to something it doesn't know or understand? It's only the Spirit if the Lord that can convict and change hearts. Our spirits can do nothing without divine guidance. And I'm of the personal opinion that we don't possess enough knowledge of the things of the Father to disagree with the things that He says. We can only take Him at His word through our faith, but again, that's my own personal view. And I sincerely do not see the connection between people's experiences and an agenda. 

Anyway, please continue to ask your questions. My point was that if in explaining something people become redundent, then they've done all they can to explain, and the rest in the hand of Holy Spirit. Peace. :Rose:


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## Enchantmt (Mar 29, 2005)

There is a chuch in Tx that offers free bible study tapes. They never ask for money, dont send you mail  or call you or anything, although you can support them if you like. Here is the website. http://www.rbthieme.org/

Call and order their basics or let them know its your first order and they will send you the lessons they recommend for beginners. You can get them on cassette, like 20 tapes or so, or on an mp3 disc with 28-30 lessons. Pastor Thieme goes into a pretty good explanation of the Trinity and attributes. This may help those having problems with this concept. These are teachings their church recorded in the 60's. Very good information, basic bible principles, how we got the bible, the language the bible was written in, why its accurate, and why there is only one interpretation. 

(713) 621-3740 

Operations Hours: Monday–Friday, 9:00 am–4:00 pm (Central) 

Phone Hours: Monday–Friday, 8:00 am–3:00 pm (Central)


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 29, 2005)

pebbles said:
			
		

> How can your "spirit" bear witness to something it doesn't know or understand? It's only the Spirit if the Lord that can convict and change hearts. Our spirits can do nothing without divine guidance. And I'm of the personal opinion that we don't possess enough knowledge of the things of the Father to disagree with the things that He says. We can only take Him at His word through our faith, but again, that's my own personal view. And I sincerely do not see the connection between people's experiences and an agenda.



The Spirit of the Lord is the Spirit within me. True, I will never know all things about the Father. I have said that several times. However, there are things that just don't line up with my Spirit. They don't feel right or make sense. 

As for what the Father says...who is disagreeing?  I disagree with much of what you all have said, but you all are NOT the Father. I'm sure that when the Father reveals the answers to me in His time, there will be no disagreement.  Yes, I have faith. But it is not blind faith b/c I'm too lazy, scared, or whatever excuse there is... to seek.


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## pebbles (Mar 29, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> As for what the Father says...who is disagreeing? * I disagree with much of what you all have said, but you all are NOT the Father.* I'm sure that when the Father reveals the answers to me in His time, there will be no disagreement.  Yes, I have faith. But it is not blind faith b/c I'm too lazy, scared, or whatever excuse there is... to seek.



Delightful, at no time has ANYONE here claimed to be the Father. I certainly haven't. I don't see why you would even say that. And since you say yourself that you disagree with much of what has been said, that further proves my point that when you've said all you can and someone still doesn't see or agree with what you've been trying to tell them, then we should *let it go.* I wasn't talking to you on that point. I'm talking to the other ladies in this thread. Since the Father is not the author of confussion, if He resides in you as you say, then open up your heart and receive what is being said, because when God reveals these truths to one, He reveals it to all. He won't hold it back from you and He won't tell the rest of us one thing and you something else. And yes, I have a lot of faith, to the point where you might think it's "blind faith." But I can assure you, I am not lazy, scared or whatever else you might think. I am big on studying the word! I just choose to believe what God says and accept that I don't and won't know it all. I see nothing wrong with that.


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## Poohbear (Mar 29, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> The Spirit of the Lord is the Spirit within me. True, I will never know all things about the Father. I have said that several times. However, *there are things that just don't line up with my Spirit. They don't feel right or make sense. *
> 
> As for what the Father says...who is disagreeing? *I disagree with much of what you all have said*, but you all are NOT the Father. I'm sure that when the Father reveals the answers to me in His time, there will be no disagreement. Yes, I have faith. But it is not blind faith b/c I'm too lazy, scared, or whatever excuse there is... to seek.


*What doesn't feel right or make sense about God as the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit???  No one has asked or told you to agree, but what you're looking for is RIGHT THERE in the Bible...His Holy Word!  *
*And what specifically do you disagree with???  I don't get your thinking...  *


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## pookeylou (Mar 29, 2005)

My two pennies:

Trinity...no.  Three seperate individual/forces...yes.

God: the creator of all things.  No beginning, has no end, cannot die.  Jesus died and was resurrected.  God cannot die.  When Jesus died...it was his Father who resurrected him.  Acts 2:32.

Jesus:  God's Son.  The only begotton (only one directly created by God).  Jesus himself said: "The Father is greater than I am."- John 14:28  Jesus also said, "I am God's Son." when the religious leaders accused him of blasphemy because he claimed to be the son of God. - John 10:36  Therefore God and God's son Jesus are not the same person.  They are not equal.  1 Corintians 11:3 says, "the head of Christ...is God."  Jesus at no time claimed to be equal to God or to be God.

Holy Spirit:  God's powerful force.  Used to create, anoint, (When Jesus was baptized, holy spirit rested upon him in the shape of a dove. Matthew 3:11) It is a force...not a person.

I think the example of Jesus baptizm is proof for me that the Trinity is a man-made doctrine.

Jesus was baptized
Holy spirit rested upon him
God spoke from Heaven, "This is my son...the beloved...whom I have approved."

Matthew 3:13-17

Those three factors are not one...but three seperate factors.

Those points and others are why I chose not to believe in the Trinity, but believe in God, his son Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy spirit are seperate...not equal.


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## pebbles (Mar 29, 2005)

So, just to be clear, you do not believe that Jesus Christ is Lord? You believe in 3 separate, unequal gods, am I correct?


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## pookeylou (Mar 29, 2005)

pebbles said:
			
		

> So, just to be clear, you do not believe that Jesus Christ is Lord? You believe in 3 separate, unequal gods, am I correct?



I think this question is for me:

I believe Jesus Christ *is* Lord.
I believe what Jesus said, "The father is greater than I am" John 14:28
I believe that God is the Almighty.  
I believe Jesus is the *Son* of God.
I believe you can only approach God in prayer *through *Jesus Christ.
I believe that God allowed His beloved son to come to earth and die for all mankind to redeem us from sin and death.  
I believe that Holy spirit is not a god but God's active force and power.  

According to the scriptures I have read...they are seperate.  

Jesus at no time claimed to be equal to God.  I cannot find that anywhere in the scriptures.  He always claimed to be Gods Son.


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 29, 2005)

pebbles said:
			
		

> Delightful, at no time has ANYONE here claimed to be the Father. I certainly haven't. I don't see why you would even say that. And since you say yourself that you disagree with much of what has been said, that further proves my point that when you've said all you can and someone still doesn't see or agree with what you've been trying to tell them, then we should *let it go.* I wasn't talking to you on that point. I'm talking to the other ladies in this thread. Since the Father is not the author of confussion, if He resides in you as you say, then open up your heart and receive what is being said, because when God reveals these truths to one, He reveals it to all. He won't hold it back from you and He won't tell the rest of us one thing and you something else. And yes, I have a lot of faith, to the point where you might think it's "blind faith." But I can assure you, I am not lazy, scared or whatever else you might think. I am big on studying the word! I just choose to believe what God says and accept that I don't and won't know it all. I see nothing wrong with that.



You are asking me to do something that you don't seem to be doing. Open up your heart and receive what is being said. Why? Because it doesn't line up with your Spirit. Even though the TRUTH is the same b/c God does not change, He has chosen to reveal different things to us at different times. 

If it is so clear cut and revealed the same to everyone, then why are there so many different interpretations and questions in this thread alone?  What is the need to discuss anything? We would all think and see the same things, correct? But since we don't...

...and I am not the only one who doesn't get the Trinity concept. 

So since I don't get it, everyone is supposed to stop discussing it with me?


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## Poohbear (Mar 29, 2005)

*@pookeylou...

Trinity does not mean they are the same... it simply means "3-in-1"...they are one in esssence and nature...that does not mean they are the same.  
And if they are 3 separate supernatural beings...where did Jesus and the Holy Spirit come from if they are not a part of God??? And how can you believe Jesus is the Son of God if you do not believe that Jesus was God and that they are one in essence and nature? *


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 29, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> *@pookeylou...
> 
> Trinity does not mean they are the same... it simply means "3-in-1"...they are one in esssence and nature...that does not mean they are the same.
> And if they are 3 separate supernatural beings...where did Jesus and the Holy Spirit come from if they are not a part of God??? And how can you believe Jesus is the Son of God if you do not believe that Jesus was God and that they are one in essence and nature? *



Where did we come from? God made us. Are we the same as the Father?

What does believing that Jesus is the Son of God have to do with believing that He is the Father? Jesus was also the son of Mary, but I don't believe that she is the Father.


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## Poohbear (Mar 29, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> You are asking me to do something that you don't seem to be doing. Open up your heart and receive what is being said. Why? Because it doesn't line up with your Spirit. Even though the TRUTH is the same b/c God does not change, He has chosen to reveal different things to us at different times.
> 
> If it is so clear cut and revealed the same to everyone, then why are there so many different interpretations and questions in this thread alone? What is the need to discuss anything? We would all think and see the same things, correct? But since we don't...
> 
> ...


*You just said you disagree with much of what has been said... what is there to discuss?  What do you want?  What do you believe? Many ladies here have tried to tell you what trinity acutally is.  Of course it's a term that man made to describe this concept of the Bible. I think the reason there are so many different interpretations and questions is because many people have different definitions of trinity set in their mind. And also the fact that no one completely gets it.  But it's in His word that God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. So what is there to question?  I admit that I don't get how God can be 3-in-1...it's because of our human nature and the capacity of our human minds. Believing in God as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is a part of the Christian faith.*


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 29, 2005)

> But it's in His word that God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. So what is there to question? I admit that I don't get how God can be 3-in-1...it's because of our human nature and the capacity of our human minds. Believing in God as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is a part of the Christian faith.



The question is whether or not that is actually in His word. Just because the Christian faith says so doesn't make it right. The Christian faith also said it was okay to steal land and enslave people, so I really don't take what they say as gospel.  

Because I don't understand it, and it doesn't make sense. I'm just supposed to accept it?  Sorry, I did that for 26 years. It doesn't work for me any longer.


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## Poohbear (Mar 29, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> Where did we come from? God made us. Are we the same as the Father?


 Good question!  Here's my best stab at it... God created us in His image... God sent Jesus (which was a part of Him) to save the world.  We (human beings) do not have divine power and do not have the power to take the punishment for the sin of this whole world.  That's how you know Jesus was God because of His POWER!!! Yes Jesus prayed to God (the Father), but it was as a HUMAN when he was dying on the cross. Do you not believe that Jesus was both divine and human at the same time???   


> What does believing that Jesus is the Son of God have to do with believing that He is the Father? Jesus was also the son of Mary, but I don't believe that she is the Father.


Jesus is the Son of God...God is the Father.  When Jesus was on earth, he was God in HUMAN FORM.   Mary was not sent from God and does not have divine power.


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 29, 2005)

Yes, Jesus was God and Human. He was born of God and Human. I wouldn't expect him to be a dog and human. 

How does that make Him the Father?


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## Poohbear (Mar 29, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> The question is whether or not that is actually in His word. Just because the Christian faith says so doesn't make it right. The Christian faith also said it was okay to steal land and enslave people, so I really don't take what they say as gospel.
> 
> Because I don't understand it, and it doesn't make sense. I'm just supposed to accept it? Sorry, I did that for 26 years. It doesn't work for me any longer.


*No honey!!! The Bible says it!!! Not just the Christian faith!!! Do you not see the Bible as your Christian authority??? *


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 29, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> *No honey!!! The Bible says it!!! Not just the Christian faith!!! Do you not see the Bible as your Christian authority???  *



Yes, I have been consulting the bible. I haven't been quoting the Koran in the last 10 or 11 pages. The bible does not say Trinity to me.


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## Poohbear (Mar 29, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> Yes, I have been consulting the bible. I haven't been quoting the Koran in the last 10 or 11 pages. The bible does not say Trinity to me.


*The Bible doesn't say Trinity to me either!  It's just a term used to describe the concept.  You must have the wrong definition of trinity in your mind.  It does not mean they are all the same...it just means God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one in ESSENCE and NATURE. *
*If you are a Christian with faith, you will accept His Word no matter how much you think it seems unclear, nonsense, or confusing. Yes, I can admit it's hard to accept His Word... even the thought of God being the Alpha and Omega...being here before the world was even created! Even the fact that Jesus died for our sins and is living in Christian hearts today! Whether there is a heaven or hell! But it's ALL ABOUT HAVING FAITH! Keep praying and especially ask for an increase in faith.  *


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## JenJen2721 (Mar 29, 2005)

pookeylou said:
			
		

> Jesus:  God's Son.  The only begotton (only one directly created by God).  Jesus himself said: "The Father is greater than I am."- John 14:28  Jesus also said, "I am God's Son." when the religious leaders accused him of blasphemy because he claimed to be the son of God. - John 10:36  Therefore God and God's son Jesus are not the same person.



The bible says different:

John 10:29-30
29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[a]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30*I and the Father are one.” *


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 29, 2005)

One what?

First it talks about how the Father is greater than all. Even Jesus said the Father was greater than Him.  

My problem with this scripture is that I don't know the language of the time. I can't just assume that it is saying that Jesus is the Father when there are many more scriptures that don't say that. 

I and my boss are one.

I and my husband are one. 

I and my daughter are one. 

All of those are true. See what I mean?


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 29, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> *The Bible doesn't say Trinity to me either!  It's just a term used to describe the concept.  You must have the wrong definition of trinity in your mind.  It does not mean they are all the same...it just means God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one in ESSENCE and NATURE. *
> *If you are a Christian with faith, you will accept His Word no matter how much you think it seems unclear, nonsense, or confusing. Yes, I can admit it's hard to accept His Word... even the thought of God being the Alpha and Omega...being here before the world was even created! Even the fact that Jesus died for our sins and is living in Christian hearts today! Whether there is a heaven or hell! But it's ALL ABOUT HAVING FAITH! Keep praying and especially ask for an increase in faith.  *



I do have faith. I do accept the Word, but not blindly. In the Word it says to prove all things, seek and find, etc. I do pray, and I have faith that God will reveal to me what He wants me to know. I do not have faith in everything that man has said about God.  And I don't care what he claims to be...Christian or otherwise. I have to know for myself.


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## Poohbear (Mar 29, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> One what?
> 
> First it talks about how the Father is greater than all. Even Jesus said the Father was greater than Him.
> 
> ...


*Yes that is true that the FATHER is GREATER THAN ALL...EVEN Jesus!!!*
*God and Jesus are DIVINE BEINGS!!!! God just happen to be human (as Jesus) at one point of this lifetime!*

*You, your boss, husband, and daughter are human beings. It's okay to see yourself as one with family members since you're all related to each other. Plus a husband and wife are ONE because of marriage. I don't know about your boss...if you wanna be one with him, that's all on you!   Do you see these people as greater than you or something???   What point are you trying to making with saying your are one with all those people??? That's totally different with God and Jesus being one. Didn't you see the scripture that JenJen just posted where Jesus said he was one with the Father??? *


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## JenJen2721 (Mar 29, 2005)

pookeylou said:
			
		

> God: the creator of all things.  No beginning, has no end, cannot die.  Jesus died and was resurrected.  God cannot die.  When Jesus died...it was his Father who resurrected him.  Acts 2:32.



John 1:3 Says the Word was the creator of all things: 

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 
*3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. *

ALSO 

Colossians 1:15-17 Describes Jesus as the creator:

The Supremacy of Christ 
   15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16*For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible,* whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. 

---------

These scriptures are saying that Jesus was the Creator.

Job 33:4 Describes the Holy Spirit as being the Creator:

4 The Spirit of God has made me; 
    the breath of the Almighty gives me life. 

According to these scriptures and others posted confirming the Father is the creator...if they are not all the same then there must be three Gods, working together....but that can't be true because they each created *everything*, which means they are one in the same.  For instance, I can create an apple pie...my sister then can't go and make the same exact apple pie I created.

Make sense?


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 29, 2005)

First you say that the Father is greater, then you say that they are the same. 

How can = be the same as > ?

And how does the Father who is not man (Numbers 23:19), just happen to be human?


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## Poohbear (Mar 29, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> I do have faith. I do accept the Word, but not blindly. In the Word it says to prove all things, seek and find, etc. I do pray, and I have faith that God will reveal to me what He wants me to know. I do not have faith in everything that man has said about God. And I don't care what he claims to be...Christian or otherwise. I have to know for myself.


So are you saying many Christians here are accepting the word blindly??? Yes we are to seek to find and ask to receive but faith is all about believing in the UNSEEN. Plus, Jesus wasn't just a man that CLAIMED to be certain things... HE WAS (my belief)!
For example, how would one know that heaven really exist? If God really exist? You can do all the seeking you want, but there is NO WAY you will find out for yourself until you die.  You have to have FAITH that there is a heaven and that there is a God.  God has revealed everything he wants us to know for right now IN THE BIBLE...HIS HOLY WORD!!!


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## Poohbear (Mar 29, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> First you say that the Father is greater, then you say that they are the same.
> 
> How can = be the same as > ?
> 
> And how does the Father who is not man (Numbers 23:19), just happen to be human?


*I did not say they are the same! They are one!  "One" doesn't necessarily mean "same".   *

*How God happen to be man?  JESUS!!!*


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## pebbles (Mar 29, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> You are asking me to do something that you don't seem to be doing. Open up your heart and receive what is being said. Why? Because it doesn't line up with your Spirit. Even though the TRUTH is the same b/c God does not change, He has chosen to reveal different things to us at different times.
> 
> If it is so clear cut and revealed the same to everyone, then why are there so many different interpretations and questions in this thread alone?  What is the need to discuss anything? We would all think and see the same things, correct? But since we don't...
> 
> ...



Is it fair to say that the majority on this thread are in agreement? I think it is. I'm not telling anyone to stop discussing it with you. If they want to continue, that's fine. There won't be any closed or locked threads in the Christianity forum. What I am saying is that if you have a clearly set view, and I think you do, and someone else has another view, and the two cannot or will not meet, I do not see the point in continuing with explanations that will lead to more confussion. Do you see at all what I'm saying? I do not believe that brings honor and glory to God. I think it's best to agree to disagree. I said already, this is my personal view. Keep asking your questions, if you want. I'm not stopping you from doing so. I'm only asking others to recognize when a discussion has run it's course.


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## JenJen2721 (Mar 29, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> One what?
> 
> First it talks about how the Father is greater than all. Even Jesus said the Father was greater than Him.
> 
> ...



One God.

The example of you and your husband being ONE is a perfect example.  You both are ONE in marriage.  The bible supports this...even though there are two persons in a marriage, there's still only ONE marriage.  Just as there is only ONE God.


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## pebbles (Mar 29, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> * Many ladies here have tried to tell you what trinity acutally is.  Of course it's a term that man made to describe this concept of the Bible. I think the reason there are so many different interpretations and questions is because many people have different definitions of trinity set in their mind. And also the fact that no one completely gets it.  But it's in His word that God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. So what is there to question?  I admit that I don't get how God can be 3-in-1...it's because of our human nature and the capacity of our human minds. Believing in God as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is a part of the Christian faith.*



Bingo! You hit it dead on.


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 29, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> So are you saying many Christians here are accepting the word blindly??? Yes we are to seek to find and ask to receive but faith is all about believing in the UNSEEN. Plus, Jesus wasn't just a man that CLAIMED to be certain things... HE WAS (my belief)!
> For example, how would one know that heaven really exist? If God really exist? You can do all the seeking you want, but there is NO WAY you will find out for yourself until you die.  You have to have FAITH that there is a heaven and that there is a God.  God has revealed everything he wants us to know for right now IN THE BIBLE...HIS HOLY WORD!!!



No...I didn't say anything about all Christians here. I said what I (ME) cannot do. Yes, I do know that there are things that are unseen, but what I can see...the Word...I must seek to find meaning for. 

I haven't seen heaven yet. Maybe I will, but just haven't yet (John did while he was still alive). I don't put limitations on God. That doesn't mean that I should just sit back and be satisfied with not knowing. How will I ever know anything if I don't try to find out? (remember the story of the talents, and the servant hid his in the ground instead of investing it?)


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 29, 2005)

JenJen2721 said:
			
		

> One God.
> 
> The example of you and your husband being ONE is a perfect example.  You both are ONE in marriage.  The bible supports this...even though there are two persons in a marriage, there's still only ONE marriage.  Just as there is only ONE God.



I agree, there is one source, the Father. Everything and everyone else comes from him (including Jesus and the Holy Spirit).


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## pebbles (Mar 29, 2005)

pookeylou said:
			
		

> I think this question is for me:



Yes, I was asking you. Since you said that the three were separate and unequal, I wanted to know what it is you meant by unequal.


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 29, 2005)

pebbles said:
			
		

> Is it fair to say that the majority on this thread are in agreement? I think it is. I'm not telling anyone to stop discussing it with you. If they want to continue, that's fine. There won't be any closed or locked threads in the Christianity forum. What I am saying is that if you have a clearly set view, and I think you do, and someone else has another view, and the two cannot or will not meet, I do not see the point in continuing with explanations that will lead to more confussion. Do you see at all what I'm saying? I do not believe that brings honor and glory to God. I think it's best to agree to disagree. I said already, this is my personal view. Keep asking your questions, if you want. I'm not stopping you from doing so. I'm only asking others to recognize when a discussion has run it's course.



what does agreement mean? Not a lot of people agreed with Jesus...in fact I'm sure He was in the minority when He lived. 

How does studying the Word bring dishonor to God?

And if people are still discussing, then how does that show that a discussion has run it's course?


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## Poohbear (Mar 29, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> No...I didn't say anything about all Christians here. I said what I (ME) cannot do. Yes, I do know that there are things that are unseen, but what I can see...the Word...I must seek to find meaning for.
> 
> I haven't seen heaven yet. Maybe I will, but just haven't yet (John did while he was still alive). I don't put limitations on God. That doesn't mean that I should just sit back and be satisfied with not knowing. How will I ever know anything if I don't try to find out? (remember the story of the talents, and the servant hid his in the ground instead of investing it?)


*No one is saying you need to just sit back and be satisfied with not knowing.  I just said that it's true that we are to seek in order to find out. Hopefully you will be blessed from HIS WORD and NOTHING ELSE!!! No, the ladies here are NOT God or anything like that.  But we are all trying to help you understand what God's word is saying...not based on what WE THINK but what GOD THINKS!!!  *


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## pebbles (Mar 29, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> what does agreement mean? Not a lot of people agreed with Jesus...in fact I'm sure He was in the minority when He lived.
> 
> How does studying the Word bring dishonor to God?
> 
> And if people are still discussing, then how does that show that a discussion has run it's course?



Please highlight where I said that studying the Word of God brings dishonor to the Father. Agreement means that most people have the same understanding. Whether people agreed with Jesus or not isn't being argued. He is Lord, He knew what He was talking about. The Word says to believe in Him, not agree with Him. Whether it made sense or not, we are to believe.  

A discussion has run it's course when the two opposing views are not bending or yielding or coming to an understanding. But I've told you already, if you want to continue, please do so.


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## Poohbear (Mar 29, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> what does agreement mean? Not a lot of people agreed with Jesus...in fact I'm sure He was in the minority when He lived.
> 
> How does studying the Word bring dishonor to God?
> 
> And if people are still discussing, then how does that show that a discussion has run it's course?


*Those people that did not agree with Jesus DID NOT BELIEVE in Jesus...most Christians I know AGREE with Jesus since they have accepted him as Lord and Savior...*

*She's not saying studying the Word brings dishonor to God... in this thread, you have not been trying to study the Word...you are questioning God and causing confusion with his word and not tried to understand anything anyone has said. You have just posted several scriptures back to back to show how confusing and how they dont feel right with YOUR spirit and how they don't make sense. THAT does not honor God!*

*The ladies here are still discussing because they probably have hope that they can help you understand....it's up to you whether you choose to agree with the Bible and what God says in his holy Word! *


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## JenJen2721 (Mar 29, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> I agree, there is one source, the Father. Everything and everyone else comes from him (including Jesus and the Holy Spirit).



What about the scriptures I posted a fews posts back that stated that Jesus was the creator of everything?  and that the Spirit was the creator?  Are you using the terms 'source' and 'creator' interchangeably?  I just want to clarify.


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## pookeylou (Mar 29, 2005)

So it sounds like different views of what the Trinity is.

Poohbear is saying (correct me if I am wrong) that the Father, Jesus the son and the holy spirit are one...in that they agree with each other.  Have the same purpose, have the same thought.

I can agree with this.  Jesus himself said, "If you have seen me you have seen the Father.." not meaning you are actually looking at God himself, but that Jesus did the will of his father.  He and his Father were so close that Jesus imitated his father in his decisions, choices and acts.  God told Moses, "No man can see God and live."  However we can see God (understand Him) by looking at the life of Christ.  They are still two different people...with the same purpose.

Jesus was the "firstborn" of all creation according to scripture.  All other things came through him.  He and his father worked closely to create.  But again...they were two seperate people working together.

The Trinity sounds very confusing to me.  I think it is because many Trinitarians have differing views on what the trinity is.  Some say that all 3 are not seperate but one person in 3 different forms.  Some say that they are seperate but in agreement with each other.  

I cannot debate *which *Trinity teaching is true or not.  Only Trinitarians can.  I think once that is confirmed...people can go from there.

I think the original question was do you believe Jesus is part of a trinity or not. My study of the bible says no.   

Jesus is the Son of God.  That is an essential part of my belief.  You cannot get life without it.  

Since it is truth...I wont get into a debate.  That is not Christ-like in my mind.  

@ DL ...continue to search, question, research, pray.  It is vital that you do.


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## Sweet C (Mar 29, 2005)

I think this discussion is quite interesting to say the least.  The best way I can think of to really describe the concept of the trinity is using someone as an example.  For example, I will use JenJen2721.  She is a wife, daughter, and mother.  She is not 3 different people, but she is one person functioning in three different ways. How she interacts as a wife is very different than how she interacts as a mother or daughter, but they are all related, b/c they are all apart of who she is.  The same thing with God.  He operates as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but he is one and the same.


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## Poohbear (Mar 29, 2005)

pookeylou said:
			
		

> So it sounds like different views of what the Trinity is.
> 
> Poohbear is saying (correct me if I am wrong) that the Father, Jesus the son and the holy spirit are one...in that they agree with each other. Have the same purpose, have the same thought.
> 
> ...


Yes, I agree with what you have said, but I believe Jesus is a part of trinity (from my definition...one in essence and nature with God and the Holy Spirit). Many of us have different meanings of the actual definition of trinity is.  That's why there are disagreements and agreements about who God really is and what the Bible says.


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## Enchantmt (Mar 29, 2005)

I've been trying to come up with an example that would make this clear but I think you may be just over thinking it.  I will use for an example blood. Blood is made up of white blood cells, red blood cells, platelets, plasma. Each component interacts with each other, each has its own purpose.  Red blood cells are not white blood cells, they cant do each others function, but you dont seperate them because its not blood with out all the components.  White blood cells are not lesser than red blood cells because they don't perform their function. And you look at them as one substance. 

  Like wise the Trinity is made up of the Father, the Son and they Holy Spirit. They interact with each other, they have their own independent purposes. They have set their own individual functions. God the Father planned our redemption, Jesus executed the plan, the Holy Spirit remains as a guide and comforter. Three parts of a whole. Individuals with different personalites, different functions,  but one Godhead. 

I have to get back to work. Good luck.


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## Poohbear (Mar 29, 2005)

Sweet C said:
			
		

> I think this discussion is quite interesting to say the least. The best way I can think of to really describe the concept of the trinity is using someone as an example. For example, I will use JenJen2721. She is a wife, daughter, and mother. She is not 3 different people, but she is one person functioning in three different ways. How she interacts as a wife is very different than how she interacts as a mother or daughter, but they are all related, b/c they are all apart of who she is. The same thing with God. He operates as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but he is one and the same.


*GREAT EXAMPLE! Good way to put it!!!  Check that example out DLF! *


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## JenJen2721 (Mar 29, 2005)

pookeylou said:
			
		

> So it sounds like different views of what the Trinity is.
> 
> Poohbear is saying (correct me if I am wrong) that the Father, Jesus the son and the holy spirit are one...in that they agree with each other.  Have the same purpose, have the same thought.
> 
> ...



I can respect that you don't want to debate this subject, but I just want to clear up that we don't even need the word, 'trinity'.  It's just that we know that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all one God and a simple way of describing that is Trinity.  That's something most Christians are on one accord about.  So it's not about what Trinitarians say, it's about what the Bible says.  If the bible states that Jesus created everything, and that the Father created everything and ALSO says the Holy Spirit is the creator, how can one dispute the bible?  It's impossible for three different people to create the same EXACT thing?  I guess unless God the Father made my head, then Jesus made my arms and legs, and then the Holy Spirit created my torso then they all got together and assembled me somehow.  They are one in the same.  They are all the same CREATOR, they are all the same God.


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## pebbles (Mar 29, 2005)

Enchantmt said:
			
		

> I've been trying to come up with an example that would make this clear but I think you may be just over thinking it.  I will use for an example blood. Blood is made up of white blood cells, red blood cells, platelets, plasma. Each component interacts with each other, each has its own purpose.  Red blood cells are not white blood cells, they cant do each others function, but you dont seperate them because its not blood with out all the components.  White blood cells are not lesser than red blood cells because they don't perform their function. And you look at them as one substance.
> 
> Like wise the Trinity is made up of the Father, the Son and they Holy Spirit. They interact with each other, they have their own independent purposes. They have set their own individual functions. God the Father planned our redemption, Jesus executed the plan, the Holy Spirit remains as a guide and comforter. Three parts of a whole. Individuals with different personalites, different functions,  but one Godhead.
> 
> I have to get back to work. Good luck.



Another great example!


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## JenJen2721 (Mar 29, 2005)

Sweet C said:
			
		

> I think this discussion is quite interesting to say the least.  The best way I can think of to really describe the concept of the trinity is using someone as an example.  For example, I will use JenJen2721.  She is a wife, daughter, and mother.  She is not 3 different people, but she is one person functioning in three different ways. How she interacts as a wife is very different than how she interacts as a mother or daughter, but they are all related, b/c they are all apart of who she is.  The same thing with God.  He operates as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but he is one and the same.



A wonderful example if I do say so myself! Just kidding!  But it's a good example.  

Another analogy is, time.  Time consists of past, present and future...they alll are different, but just ONE time.  You can't separate them from being time.


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## pebbles (Mar 29, 2005)

Sweet C said:
			
		

> I think this discussion is quite interesting to say the least.  The best way I can think of to really describe the concept of the trinity is using someone as an example.  For example, I will use JenJen2721.  She is a wife, daughter, and mother.  She is not 3 different people, but she is one person functioning in three different ways. How she interacts as a wife is very different than how she interacts as a mother or daughter, but they are all related, b/c they are all apart of who she is.  The same thing with God.  He operates as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but he is one and the same.



Yet another good one.


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## Poohbear (Mar 29, 2005)

JenJen2721 said:
			
		

> I can respect that you don't want to debate this subject, *but I just want to clear up that we don't even need the word, 'trinity'.* It's just that we know that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all one God and a simple way of describing that is Trinity. That's something most Christians are on one accord about. So it's not about what Trinitarians say, it's about what the Bible says. If the bible states that Jesus created everything, and that the Father created everything and ALSO says the Holy Spirit is the creator, how can one dispute the bible? It's impossible for three different people to create the same EXACT thing? I guess unless God the Father made my head, then Jesus made my arms and legs, and then the Holy Spirit created my torso then they all got together and assembled me somehow. They are one in the same. They are all the same CREATOR, they are all the same God.


*I totally agree along with everything else you said. *


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## Honeyhips (Mar 29, 2005)

Enchantmt said:
			
		

> I've been trying to come up with an example that would make this clear but I think you may be just over thinking it. I will use for an example blood. Blood is made up of white blood cells, red blood cells, platelets, plasma. Each component interacts with each other, each has its own purpose. Red blood cells are not white blood cells, they cant do each others function, but you dont seperate them because its not blood with out all the components. White blood cells are not lesser than red blood cells because they don't perform their function. And you look at them as one substance.
> 
> Like wise the Trinity is made up of the Father, the Son and they Holy Spirit. They interact with each other, they have their own independent purposes. They have set their own individual functions. God the Father planned our redemption, Jesus executed the plan, the Holy Spirit remains as a guide and comforter. Three parts of a whole. Individuals with different personalites, different functions, but one Godhead.
> 
> I have to get back to work. Good luck.


 That was a very good example. Thank you.


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 29, 2005)

Sweet C said:
			
		

> I think this discussion is quite interesting to say the least.  The best way I can think of to really describe the concept of the trinity is using someone as an example.  For example, I will use JenJen2721.  She is a wife, daughter, and mother.  She is not 3 different people, but she is one person functioning in three different ways. How she interacts as a wife is very different than how she interacts as a mother or daughter, but they are all related, b/c they are all apart of who she is.  The same thing with God.  He operates as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but he is one and the same.



The only problem I have with this example is that JenJen is still JenJen. 

JenJen the daughter doesn't pray to JenJen the mother...I would assume. And JenJen the wife didn't create JenJen the mother. Does JenJen the daughter refer to JenJen the mother as FATHER?


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 29, 2005)

JenJen2721 said:
			
		

> What about the scriptures I posted a fews posts back that stated that Jesus was the creator of everything?  and that the Spirit was the creator?  Are you using the terms 'source' and 'creator' interchangeably?  I just want to clarify.



I believe those scriptures were discussed earlier in the post. From what I have read, the source is the FATHER. All of the power that Jesus was given to create was obtained from the FATHER. Yet the FATHER never says He obtained anything from anywhere except Himself.


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## Poohbear (Mar 29, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> The only problem I have with this example is that JenJen is still JenJen.
> 
> JenJen the daughter doesn't pray to JenJen the mother...I would assume. And JenJen the wife didn't create JenJen the mother. Does JenJen the daughter refer to JenJen the mother as FATHER?


She was just giving an example of how God is 3-in-1.  Of course no human can have the divine powers like God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit has.


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## Poohbear (Mar 29, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> I believe those scriptures were discussed earlier in the post. From what I have read, the source is the FATHER. *All of the power that Jesus was given* to create *was obtained from the FATHER. Yet the FATHER never says He obtained anything from anywhere except Himself*.


*TRUE!!!! *


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## Poohbear (Mar 29, 2005)

Enchantmt said:
			
		

> I've been trying to come up with an example that would make this clear but I think you may be just over thinking it. I will use for an example blood. Blood is made up of white blood cells, red blood cells, platelets, plasma. Each component interacts with each other, each has its own purpose. Red blood cells are not white blood cells, they cant do each others function, but you dont seperate them because its not blood with out all the components. White blood cells are not lesser than red blood cells because they don't perform their function. And you look at them as one substance.
> 
> Like wise the Trinity is made up of the Father, the Son and they Holy Spirit. They interact with each other, they have their own independent purposes. They have set their own individual functions. God the Father planned our redemption, Jesus executed the plan, the Holy Spirit remains as a guide and comforter. Three parts of a whole. Individuals with different personalites, different functions, but one Godhead.
> 
> I have to get back to work. Good luck.


*ANOTHER GREAT EXAMPLE!!!  Right on!*


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## pookeylou (Mar 29, 2005)

JenJen2721 said:
			
		

> I can respect that you don't want to debate this subject, but I just want to clear up that we don't even need the word, 'trinity'.  It's just that we know that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all one God and a simple way of describing that is Trinity.  That's something most Christians are on one accord about.  So it's not about what Trinitarians say, it's about what the Bible says.  If the bible states that Jesus created everything, and that the Father created everything and ALSO says the Holy Spirit is the creator, how can one dispute the bible?  It's impossible for three different people to create the same EXACT thing?  I guess unless God the Father made my head, then Jesus made my arms and legs, and then the Holy Spirit created my torso then they all got together and assembled me somehow.  They are one in the same.  They are all the same CREATOR, they are all the same God.




My final two pennies   :

I believe that Jesus and God are one in that they agree with each other and have the same purpose.  The scriptures support that.

I believe that Jesus and his Father helped create all that we see.  That does not mean they are the same person.  If you and I create a mosaic table top we worked together in unison...that does not make us the same person, same body.  There are two creators on the table...not one.  Even though we worked together in unison.  It still does not equal...one.

I believe what the scriptures say...what Jesus himself says on subject:

The Jewish leaders wanted to kill Jesus because "in addition to disobeying their Sabbath Laws, he had spoken of God a*s his father*, thereby making himself equal to God."  (The Living Bible) The Jewish leaders said Jesus made that claim...Jesus never said that.  He said he was God's Son.  Jesus said the "Father is *greater *than I am."  *Greater *does not mean *equal to*.

Can you be *a son* and *a father* at the same time?  Sure.  My dad is a son and he is my father.  But is my dad HIS own father...of course not.

1+1+1=3...not 1.

Are they seperate (I notice that many of you refer to the Holy spirit as "person" in the third part of this trinity/arrangement) yes.  Are they in agreement...yes.

I and my husband are one in agreement...we are not the same person.

These discussions prove more and more why it is important to research and study God's word for ourselves.  As long as we continue to do that...God will show the honest hearted ones who want to know what is right...the right way.  God is a God of order...not of disunity.  So logic (and scripture) tells us that there cannot be 10 different versions of the truth.

Either God is Jesus...or God is the Father and Jesus is the Son of the Father.

When you feel truly at peace about your belief...then you know God has given you the answer.  I feel truly at peace knowing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and only through him can anyone get peace and life and have hope.


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 29, 2005)

Enchantmt said:
			
		

> I've been trying to come up with an example that would make this clear but I think you may be just over thinking it.  I will use for an example blood. Blood is made up of white blood cells, red blood cells, platelets, plasma. Each component interacts with each other, each has its own purpose.  Red blood cells are not white blood cells, they cant do each others function, but you dont seperate them because its not blood with out all the components.  White blood cells are not lesser than red blood cells because they don't perform their function. And you look at them as one substance.
> 
> Like wise the Trinity is made up of the Father, the Son and they Holy Spirit. They interact with each other, they have their own independent purposes. They have set their own individual functions. God the Father planned our redemption, Jesus executed the plan, the Holy Spirit remains as a guide and comforter. Three parts of a whole. Individuals with different personalites, different functions,  but one Godhead.
> 
> I have to get back to work. Good luck.



In this example, I see what you are saying. But I still don't see a Trinity. The reason is because Jesus exists from within the Father (source). Yet the Father existed before everything. But I do agree that they all work together, and do different things. I just don't see them as being all one God. They all seem to stem from the same source though.


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## pebbles (Mar 29, 2005)

pookeylou said:
			
		

> 1+1+1=3...not 1.



Mathimatically, this is correct, but spiritually speaking, I do not hold this equation accurate when speaking of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. If Jesus says that " I and the Father are one," to me, 1+1 is not 2 but 1. That's my take on it, but I respect your views.


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## DelightfulFlame (Mar 29, 2005)

pookeylou said:
			
		

> My final two pennies   :
> 
> I believe that Jesus and God are one in that they agree with each other and have the same purpose.  The scriptures support that.
> 
> ...



ITA! well said. After this long discussion, I have found peace on this subject too. Thanks ladies!


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## JenJen2721 (Mar 29, 2005)

pookeylou said:
			
		

> These discussions prove more and more why it is important to research and study God's word for ourselves.  As long as we continue to do that...God will show the honest hearted ones who want to know what is right...the right way.



I'll agree with that and leave it there.


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## mkstar826 (Mar 29, 2005)

pebbles said:
			
		

> What "agenda" do we have here other than to fellowship together amongst other Christians and to discuss that Jesus Christ IS Lord? I'm not understanding that last phrase. Most of us here know and understand that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are one and the same.
> We don't really know how that is and cannot explain it enough for DF to understand it, and maybe she doesn't want to understand it, in which case there isn't anything anyone can say that she will believe or accept, but I'm glad that there are people willing to try.
> 
> Ultimately, sisters, we can't talk such knowledge into anyone. Many great posts have been made trying to explain this phenomenon, but people need to be of a heart to receive what is being said, and if it appears that no matter what you say nothing is getting through, then the Holy Spirit has not yet revealed this to them, and it is through the power of the Holy Spirit alone that a person will come to accept that there are 3 persons in one God. I do agree that there is too much potential for confussion in some of these topics and that's not what we want, so if it looks like you aren't getting anywhere, make your statement and move on. Just pray that God will touch hearts and bring clarity where it is needed.




The agenda, from what I'm seeing, is to convince someone that the trinity exists as YOU (in general, not you specifically) believe it to exist. Nowhere in the bible does it say the word trinity or speak of it like many people believe it to be...It's a MAN MADE concept...so the topic IS up for debate and is subject to different interpretations, right? Just because you believe and interpret the scriptures in a certain way does NOT make it true or even accurate. Just because your pastor or whoever told you that the notion of 3 in 1 as one being is true does not make it true. This is why I said she should pray to God and study on her own rather than talk about it amongst people who aren't really open to seeing it from another angle...or atleast talk about it amongst a wide variety of people who are willing to be open. Talking about it amongst people who only see it one way only leads to confusion and debate over something that is subjective.


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## mkstar826 (Mar 29, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> *You are asking me to do something that you don't seem to be doing. Open up your heart and receive what is being said. Why? Because it doesn't line up with your Spirit.* Even though the TRUTH is the same b/c God does not change, He has chosen to reveal different things to us at different times.
> 
> *If it is so clear cut and revealed the same to everyone, then why are there so many different interpretations and questions in this thread alone? *What is the need to discuss anything? We would all think and see the same things, correct? But since we don't...
> 
> ...


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## Poohbear (Mar 29, 2005)

mkstar826 said:
			
		

> The agenda, from what I'm seeing, is to convince someone that the trinity exists as YOU (in general, not you specifically) believe it to exist. Nowhere in the bible does it say the word trinity or speak of it like many people believe it to be...It's a MAN MADE concept...so the topic IS up for debate and is subject to different interpretations, right? Just because you believe and interpret the scriptures in a certain way does NOT make it true or even accurate. Just because your pastor or whoever told you that the notion of 3 in 1 as one being is true does not make it true. This is why I said she should pray to God and study on her own rather than talk about it amongst people who aren't really open to seeing it from another angle...or atleast talk about it amongst a wide variety of people who are willing to be open. Talking about it amongst people who only see it one way only leads to confusion and debate over something that is subjective.


*No one is trying to convince anyone that trinity exist in the way they believe it to exist.  We are simply trying to explain the scriptures and the concepts behind God's word in order for someone to understand.  I think the ladies here who believe in God as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not explaining things based on their OWN opinion...most of what has been posted from "trinity believers" is based on the word of God.*


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## mkstar826 (Mar 29, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> *No one is trying to convince anyone that trinity exist in the way they believe it to exist.  We are simply trying to explain the scriptures and the concepts behind God's word in order for someone to understand.  I think the ladies here who believe in God as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not explaining things based on their OWN opinion...most of what has been posted from "trinity believers" is based on the word of God.*



IMO, people are trying to convince those who don't believe it to be so of that. (My opinion can't be debated.)

Also, how can you base it on the word of God when the concept of the trinity is man made? You said that yourself. This is why I feel it should be discussed from a broader angle with a different group. Not discrediting anyone's opinion here, but by now it's clear that this is kind of a one-sided debate so what's the point? Sure we can all take scriptures and bend them to fit what you've been told as proof that it does or doesn't exist...but that doesn't make it true or accurate. God is the only one who determines that and contrary to what you said no one else can tell you what God thinks as it pertains to your individual life. That's all I'm saying.


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## Poohbear (Mar 29, 2005)

mkstar826 said:
			
		

> IMO, people are trying to convince her of that. My opinion can't be debated.
> 
> Also, how can you base it on the word of God when the concept of the trinity is man made? You said that yourself. This is why I feel it should be discussed from a broader angle with a different group. Not discrediting anyone's opinion here, but by now it's clear that this is kind of a one-sided debate so what's the point? Sure we can all take scriptures and bend them to fit what you've been told as proof that it does or doesn't exist...but that doesn't make it true or accurate. God is the only one who determines that and contrary to what you said no one else can tell you what God thinks as it pertains to your individual life. That's all I'm saying.


*I also agreed to the fact that you don't even have to use the word "trinity" to explain this concept. It's just simply God as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Trinity is just a word. Just like the word "Bible"...God didn't give his holy word this name...man did! That's why we have dictionaries to give definitions to things, concepts, principles, etc...all words are man-made!!!  *


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## mkstar826 (Mar 29, 2005)

what does that have to do with what i said?

if it's a man made concept then how can one be sure that this was the way God intended it to be? especially when there are scriptures that 'prove' both sides of the argument? this whole issue has basically been an argument of semantics and interpretation...

my point is no human can explain it to you or make you aware of it so to sit here and try to convince someone that what you believe, exactly how you believe it is ummm...interesting...for lack of a better word. not saying anything is wrong with discusion but ultimately, go to God.

anywho, i'm done replying because i know where i stand on it and don't want to add to anymore confusion.

great topic DF! i'd love to discuss it on NP too.


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## JenJen2721 (Mar 29, 2005)

mkstar826 said:
			
		

> The agenda, from what I'm seeing, is to convince someone that the trinity exists as YOU (in general, not you specifically) believe it to exist. Nowhere in the bible does it say the word trinity or speak of it like many people believe it to be...It's a MAN MADE concept...so the topic IS up for debate and is subject to different interpretations, right? Just because you believe and interpret the scriptures in a certain way does NOT make it true or even accurate. Just because your pastor or whoever told you that the notion of 3 in 1 as one being is true does not make it true. This is why I said she should pray to God and study on her own rather than talk about it amongst people who aren't really open to seeing it from another angle...or atleast talk about it amongst a wide variety of people who are willing to be open. Talking about it amongst people who only see it one way only leads to confusion and debate over something that is subjective.



For me this discussion, after I posted the scriptures that to me proved that there is only one God consisting of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, (I don't care whether one uses the term Trinity) to me trying to understand how one could ascertain (from scripture) that there is more than one God?    So I was trying to understand, at least where the other pov was coming from.

I would like to see the scripture that supports that theory, but I suppose that's another thread.


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## Poohbear (Mar 29, 2005)

JenJen2721 said:
			
		

> For me this discussion, after I posted the scriptures that to me proved that *there is only one God consisting of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit*, (I don't care whether one uses the term Trinity) to me *trying to understand how one could ascertain (from scripture) that there is more than one God?*  So I was trying to understand, at least where the other pov was coming from.
> 
> I would like to see the scripture that supports that theory, but I suppose that's another thread.


I agree. I also wonder how one can ascertain that there's more than one God.


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## BlkHoneyLuv2U (Mar 29, 2005)

Alright now ladies, this going back and forth is going nowhere. After all is said and done, I feel its best to just believe that HE IS!! Lets not debate anymore over something that none of us fully understand. Personally I feel that the way we believe depends entirely on where we were when God revealed Himself to us individually. Its a personal thang. Lets move on cause I know what I know as do each of us who has that personal relationship. Love to all but lets not get a lock down over here.


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## pebbles (Mar 29, 2005)

mkstar826 said:
			
		

> The agenda, from what I'm seeing, is to convince someone that the trinity exists as YOU (in general, not you specifically) believe it to exist. Nowhere in the bible does it say the word trinity or speak of it like many people believe it to be...It's a MAN MADE concept...so the topic IS up for debate and is subject to different interpretations, right? Just because you believe and interpret the scriptures in a certain way does NOT make it true or even accurate. Just because your pastor or whoever told you that the notion of 3 in 1 as one being is true does not make it true. This is why I said she should pray to God and study on her own rather than talk about it amongst people who aren't really open to seeing it from another angle...or atleast talk about it amongst a wide variety of people who are willing to be open. Talking about it amongst people who only see it one way only leads to confusion and debate over something that is subjective.



Sorry, but that is not an "agenda." We didn't create this forum with an agenda to turn people to our way of thinking. This forum is for Christian fellowship. The word trinity is not in the bible, we all agree on that. Too many people seem to be hung up on that word. Perhaps if we said tri-unity that would be better. Since the belief of God in three person's is the corner stone of the Christian faith, we are trying to explain it as best we can. Clearly, as has been pointed out already, the concept is difficult to grasp and difficult to explain. 

1.  The Bible teaches that there is only one God. (Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 44:6-8, Isaiah 45:22) 

2.  The Bibles teaches that there is one who is called the Father and is identified as being God. (1 Peter 1:2) 

3.  The Bible teaches that there is one who is called Jesus and is identified as being God. (John 1:1-3&14-18, John 20:28-29, 1 John 1:1-4&5:20, Philippians 2:5-8, Revelation 1:17-18, Revelation 22:12-20) 

4.  The Bible teaches that there is one who is called the Holy Spirit and is identified as being God. (John 14:16-17, John 15:26, John 16:7-15, Acts 5:3-4, Acts 13:2, 1 Corinthians 12:4-18, Hebrews 9:14, Hebrews 10:15-18) 

Now while you or others may not agree, that's on you, but I have no "agenda." If I explain it and you get it, fine. If you don't get it, fine. I say let the power of the Holy Ghost do the rest.


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## pebbles (Mar 29, 2005)

mkstar826 said:
			
		

> IMO, people are trying to convince those who don't believe it to be so of that. (My opinion can't be debated.)



Wrong. No one is saying their opinion can't be debated. I said that if the two sides cannot agree, the discussion is fruitless.


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## pebbles (Mar 29, 2005)

JenJen2721 said:
			
		

> For me this discussion, after I posted the scriptures that to me proved that there is only one God consisting of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, (I don't care whether one uses the term Trinity) to me trying to understand how one could ascertain (from scripture) that there is more than one God?    So I was trying to understand, at least where the other pov was coming from.
> 
> I would like to see the scripture that supports that theory, but I suppose that's another thread.


I agree. I don't know how one comes away with the notion that there is more than one God, but. . .


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## Poohbear (Mar 29, 2005)

pebbles said:
			
		

> Sorry, but that is not an "agenda." We didn't create this forum with an agenda to turn people to our way of thinking. This forum is for Christian fellowship. The word trinity is not in the bible, we all agree on that. Too many people seem to be hung up on that word. Perhaps if we said tri-unity that would be better. Since the belief of God in three person's is the corner stone of the Christian faith, we are trying to explain it as best we can. Clearly, as has been pointed out already, the concept is difficult to grasp and difficult to explain.
> 
> 1. The Bible teaches that there is only one God. (Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 44:6-8, Isaiah 45:22)
> 
> ...


*AMEN!!! *


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## TJD3 (Mar 30, 2005)

A pizza is made of crust, sauce, cheese and meat.  Seperate things, working to gether.  However, it is still one pizza  .


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## JuJuBoo (Mar 30, 2005)

DelightfulFlame said:
			
		

> The only problem I have with this example is that JenJen is still JenJen.
> 
> JenJen the daughter doesn't pray to JenJen the mother...I would assume. And JenJen the wife didn't create JenJen the mother. Does JenJen the daughter refer to JenJen the mother as FATHER?



THAT is why we will never COMPLETELY understand the Trinity...Because you're right, to OUR minds it doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense at ALL. Yet, it's scripturally correct. Again, my mind doesn't understand it, but my spirit has peace and knows it's the truth. I'd just pray about it girlfriend.


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## JuJuBoo (Mar 30, 2005)

TJD3 said:
			
		

> A pizza is made of crust, sauce, cheese and meat.  Seperate things, working to gether.  However, it is still one pizza  .



*HAAAAAAAA!!*  you will not use *pizza* as an analogy!!  too funny! 


I must say, even though everyone has their own viewpoints, this was still a really good conversation. I think we can all come to agreement that *JESUS is LORD* correct? So hallelujah, let's end it.


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