# Wait on the Lord and Baptism of the Holy Spirit



## chicacanella (Dec 15, 2008)

Hi everyone.

I have been praying for the baptism of the holy spirit for some time now and I believe that God will give it to me.

I have read some testimonies online where people have received it quite quickly after praying for it. I was beginning to think, "Am I doing something wrong; why am I not receiving it as evidence by speaking in tongues?"

So, I have been reassured by two other Christian women not to worry or think anything is wrong with me. And I have just decided to not be anxious for anything as stated in Philipians. I am now just going to continue to pray and ask God for it and let him give me the baptism when he is ready. I always had complete faith but I guess I was thinking it would happen immediately. 

Of course I don't know why it hasn't happened yet but I know that when God is ready, I will receive it.

"Trust in the LORD and do good; dwell in the land and enjoy safe pasture. *Delight yourself in the LORD and he will give you the desires of your heart.* Commit your way to the LORD; trust in him and he will do this: He will make your righteousness shine like the dawn, the justice of your cause like the noonday sun. Be still before the LORD and *wait patiently for him*…" (Psalm 37:5-7a, NIV).


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## PaperClip (Dec 15, 2008)

(((HUGS!)))

I got baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ July 16, 1989. It was a most beautiful and cleansing experience. I did not speak in tongues that day. I was very disappointed. I prayed and prayed and wished and prayed. It was a month later and I was in the car with my friends and we were coming back from an afternoon church servce and we were sitting in the parking lot of our church waiting for evening service to start and we/they started worshipping in the car and they started speaking in tongues and I just kept singing and praying and before I could realize it, I was speaking in tongues and I seem to recall that I didn't stop and that they had to help me into the church and I gave some kind of testimony and I remember zipping and shouting in between the pews!

I share that to encourage you that the Holy Spirit is right there at your lips. Just relax in Him in faith as you are doing and worship, worship, worship, worship, worship the Lord. Bask in His goodness and holiness. Singa and hum and make melodies... and when you are so caught up in the anointing of the Lord in worship, your tongues will come forth, in Jesus' Name! 

I paused this post to pray for you that the Holy Spirit would hover all around you and you will begin to relax and rest in His warm embrace and that such peace will be with you and not many days hence, you will report back with a praise report that you received your heavenly language and you are speaking in other tongues as the Holy Spirit gives utterance! Hallelujah!


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## Ms.Honey (Dec 16, 2008)

Are you nervous about receiving it or do you think you're doing something that is hindering you from receiving it? I was a smoker when I received the baptism of the Holy Ghost. I told the Lord that I was surprised that He would allow me to speak in tongues when I while I was still a smoker. He told me He could do whatever He wanted, when He wanted 

So just relax and have your own personal praise and worship service as often as necessary til you see the evidence (tongues). If you feel too distracted you can always have a minister lay hands on you and pray with you until you speak in tongues. I can also recommend a cd called "Baptism with the Holy Spirit, What hindereth thou?" or something like that  Just let me know if you're interested and I'll find the exact title for you.


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## firecracker (Dec 16, 2008)

Wow I didnt know folks prayed to speak in tongues or get the holy ghost.  I'm running if your sitting next to me when you do!  Thanks to my Grandmother scaring the sweet baby jesus out of me and slapping me when she did when I was a kid.  Thanks but no thanks.  LOL


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## plainj (Dec 16, 2008)

chicacanella said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> I have been praying for the baptism of the holy spirit for some time now and I believe that God will give it to me.
> 
> ...


Chicanella, this is my EXACT story too. Like ms. honey said, I'm nervous about it, anxious, don't know if I truly believe (working on it), confused. But I want it. I know why I want it but still dealing with the above issues. I need to take the advice here and just relax and let God do what He's going to do when He's going to do it. It also doesn't help that everywhere I turn someone is asking me "Have you been baptized in the Holy Spirit yet?". When I say no, they want to give me *all* kinds of techniques on how to get there which adds to my confusion.erplexed Chicanella, be encouraged. It's coming. Just be still and know He is God. He knows all things.

BTW firecracker, same thing happened to my dh. He got hit upside the head by his grandma and he feels the same way you do.


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## Ms.Honey (Dec 16, 2008)

firecracker said:


> Wow I didnt know folks prayed to speak in tongues or get the holy ghost. I'm running if your sitting next to me when you do! Thanks to my Grandmother scaring the sweet baby jesus out of me and slapping me when she did when I was a kid. Thanks but no thanks. LOL


 
That was what initially stopped me from wanting to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost I didn't want to be flailing all over the place screaming, foaming at the mouth with my eyes rolling to the back of my head (y'all know like Martin's momma when Gina killed her bird Ruby). I didn't want to be running up and down the aisles of the church or spontaneously screaming and breaking out in the "dance"erplexed I got hit in the head by someone "catching the Holy Ghost" too but I was grown and a brand new Christian. I was like, "Naw, that's ok."

All that stuff is NOT the baptism of the Holy Ghost y'all That's just folks getting emotional and letting go and sometimes, most times, it's just showing their behinds. There is NOTHING in the bible that suggests that anyone who received the baptism did all that mess. I received the baptism 10 years ago and have NEVER done any of the above. 

Please don't let that hinder you all from receiving the gift and power that Jesus Himself has promised you from His own mouth. It's important to receive it. It's our help and strength in the Lord to help us to Him and stay in line with His Word and His will.


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## chicacanella (Dec 17, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> Are you nervous about receiving it or do you think you're doing something that is hindering you from receiving it? I was a smoker when I received the baptism of the Holy Ghost. I told the Lord that I was surprised that He would allow me to speak in tongues when I while I was still a smoker. He told me He could do whatever He wanted, when He wanted
> 
> So just relax and have your own personal praise and worship service as often as necessary til you see the evidence (tongues). If you feel too distracted you can always have a minister lay hands on you and pray with you until you speak in tongues. I can also recommend a cd called "Baptism with the Holy Spirit, What hindereth thou?" or something like that  Just let me know if you're interested and I'll find the exact title for you.


 
Well, as I was worshiping and praying the morning before this post, the holy spirit impressed upon me that I needed to send one of my cousins that I had a falling out with a card and call my dad.  I had already said I forgave them but I guess this act was important for me to do, or show as a sign of forgiveness.

Then out of the blue, this guy I used to deal with calls me at 1:30 a.m. As soon as I get up, the holy spirit impresses upon me that the call is "unholy" a distraction from the enemy. All of this is like, "Whooaaa, okay.  Someone obviously wants me to stop pressing into God and praying for the baptism of the holy spirit.

This whole thing is making me desire it even more cause' the enemy is trying to hinder me and that ain't gonna happen.



FoxyScholar said:


> (((HUGS!)))
> 
> I got baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ July 16, 1989. It was a most beautiful and cleansing experience. I did not speak in tongues that day. I was very disappointed. I prayed and prayed and wished and prayed. It was a month later and I was in the car with my friends and we were coming back from an afternoon church servce and we were sitting in the parking lot of our church waiting for evening service to start and we/they started worshipping in the car and they started speaking in tongues and I just kept singing and praying and before I could realize it, I was speaking in tongues and I seem to recall that I didn't stop and that they had to help me into the church and I gave some kind of testimony and I remember zipping and shouting in between the pews!
> 
> ...


 
I remember your testimony before. I believe that as I continue to ask God, he will give it to me in his timing.



plainj said:


> Chicanella, this is my EXACT story too. Like ms. honey said, I'm nervous about it, anxious, don't know if I truly believe (working on it), confused. But I want it. I know why I want it but still dealing with the above issues. I need to take the advice here and just relax and let God do what He's going to do when He's going to do it. It also doesn't help that everywhere I turn someone is asking me "Have you been baptized in the Holy Spirit yet?". When I say no, they want to give me *all* kinds of techniques on how to get there which adds to my confusion.erplexed Chicanella, be encouraged. It's coming. Just be still and know He is God. He knows all things.
> 
> BTW firecracker, same thing happened to my dh. He got hit upside the head by his grandma and he feels the same way you do.


 
This one woman was telling me just open my mouth and start babling like a baby. Saying, "Daddaa Bllahhbbaa." And the words would come. I don't think one should have to do that. The disciples didn't do that.


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## plainj (Dec 17, 2008)

chicacanella said:


> This one woman was telling me just open my mouth and start babling like a baby. Saying, "Daddaa Bllahhbbaa." And the words would come. I don't think one should have to do that. The disciples didn't do that.


I totally agree. One woman told me to just say lalalalalalalal until I start speaking in tongues. 
A pastorerplexed (not mine) told me to say one syllable; now say two syllables; now say three syllables, etc., without thinking about what I'm going to say and then I will start speaking in tongues. erplexed Huh?! These just didn't sit right with my spirit. I said the same thing to myself: The disciples didn't do that. So now I will just keep my mouth shut when folks ask me about it and *wait *for God to do His thing in me in His time.


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## chicacanella (Dec 17, 2008)

plainj said:


> I totally agree. One woman told me to just say lalalalalalalal until I start speaking in tongues.
> A pastorerplexed (not mine) told me to say one syllable; now say two syllables; now say three syllables, etc., without thinking about what I'm going to say and then I will start speaking in tongues. erplexed Huh?! These just didn't sit right with my spirit. I said the same thing to myself: The disciples didn't do that. So now I will just keep my mouth shut when folks ask me about it and *wait *for God to do His thing in me in His time.


 
Yeah, I feel the same way. I mean, I don't believe one should have to do this. I will also patiently wait on the lord. Since we are both seeking baptism of the holy spirit, I will pray for you and you pray for me.


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## firecracker (Dec 17, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> That was what initially stopped me from wanting to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost I didn't want to be flailing all over the place screaming, foaming at the mouth with my eyes rolling to the back of my head (y'all know like Martin's momma when Gina killed her bird Ruby). I didn't want to be running up and down the aisles of the church or spontaneously screaming and breaking out in the "dance"erplexed I got hit in the head by someone "catching the Holy Ghost" too but I was grown and a brand new Christian. I was like, "Naw, that's ok."
> 
> All that stuff is NOT the baptism of the Holy Ghost y'all That's just folks getting emotional and letting go and sometimes, most times, it's just showing their behinds. There is NOTHING in the bible that suggests that anyone who received the baptism did all that mess. I received the baptism 10 years ago and have NEVER done any of the above.
> 
> Please don't let that hinder you all from receiving the gift and power that Jesus Himself has promised you from His own mouth. It's important to receive it. It's our help and strength in the Lord to help us to Him and stay in line with His Word and His will.


My Grandmother wasn't putting on a show.  I have seen some folks put on a show.  I have gifts and that isn't power.  Your entitled to your opinion though.


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## PaperClip (Dec 17, 2008)

plainj said:


> I totally agree. One woman told me to just say lalalalalalalal until I start speaking in tongues.
> A pastorerplexed (not mine) told me to say one syllable; now say two syllables; now say three syllables, etc., without thinking about what I'm going to say and then I will start speaking in tongues. erplexed Huh?! These just didn't sit right with my spirit. I said the same thing to myself: The disciples didn't do that. So now I will just keep my mouth shut when folks ask me about it and *wait *for God to do His thing in me in His time.


 
At my church, we usually minister to those tarrying for the Holy Spirit to just say "Hallelujah" in their own way and encourage them to reflect on who the Lord is and who He is to them and kind of distract them from focusing on their mouths/tongues and allow the Holy Spirit to take over their tongue, if you will.


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## Ms.Honey (Dec 18, 2008)

firecracker said:


> My Grandmother wasn't putting on a show. I have seen some folks put on a show.  I have gifts and that isn't power. Your entitled to your opinion though.


 
That's why I said some folks getting emotional and letting go also. Some folks get caught up being in His presence and will breakdown crying, fall to their knees etc. but some of it is just folks acting the fool  BUT it is controllable. The Holy Spirit isn't making folks run laps around the sanctuary


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## plainj (Dec 18, 2008)

FoxyScholar said:


> At my church, we usually minister to those tarrying for the Holy Spirit to just say "Hallelujah" in their own way and encourage them to reflect on who the Lord is and who He is to them and kind of distract them from focusing on their mouths/tongues and allow the Holy Spirit to take over their tongue, if you will.


Thank you foxyscholar. You've given me a brand new perspective on it. Most tell me to do this or do that without adding the idea to *focus* on Him and the goodness of Him.If one is so focused on the "method", "trick", or "secret" instead of focusing   on God then of course nothing will come of it.


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## chicacanella (Dec 21, 2008)

*Hey everyone. I have an update.*

*As I was in prayer in worship, I was praying to receive the baptism of the holy spirit. So, as I just became still and quiet these words came to me by the holy spirit.*

*"Tarry for it."  Tarry for the baptism of the holy spirit.  And then, "you reap what you sow."*

*I didn't know what it meant so I looked it up and found an article. *

*http://www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/holy-days/should-we-tarry-for-pentecost.html*




*Could They Wait Fifty Days?*​When the two disciples who saw the Messiah on the way to Emmaus rushed back and told the eleven what had happened, Y'shua Himself stood in the midst of them. They were terrified, supposing they had seen a ghost, *Luke 24:33-37*. Then He calmed them down, and patiently let them touch Him, to see that it was really Him. Now it was time for the evidence to be revealed, *verses 38-40*. 
It was also time for their understanding to be opened, just as the tomb had been opened the day before. Even the wavesheaf day, when Peter and John saw the empty tomb, they did not understand the scripture, that He must rise from the dead, *John 20:9*. Now He opened their minds, *Luke 24:44-48*. It was almost time now that repentance and remission of sins be preached in His name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem, *verse 47*. 
First, they had to wait: "And behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power [Holy Spirit] from on high," *Luke 24:49*. They failed to tarry with Him at Gethsemane. Would they now be able to tarry 50 days for the Spirit of power? What does it mean to "tarry"? 
*What "Tarry" Means*​Some have the mistaken notion that "tarry" in *Luke 24:49* means merely "wait." It is much more than that. The Greek word is _kathizo_, and everywhere else is translated "sit" or "sit down." 
An example is *Matthew 5:1*, where the Savior was set on the mount when He gave His famous sermon to the disciples; In *Luke 5:3* He sat down, and taught the people out of the ship. In *John 8:2* He sat down in the temple and taught all the people that came to Him, and *Acts 8:31 *shows the Ethiopian eunuch who desired Philip to *sit* with him in his chariot and teach him. 
Another aspect of this word for "tarry" is that of sitting in judgment: *Matthew 19:28*, where the Savior said He shall sit in the throne of His glory, the disciples shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. *Revelation 3:21*, "To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcome, and am set down with my Father in His throne." *Revelation 20:4*, "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them and judgment was given unto them . . . and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." 
Besides sitting in judgment, the above verses also show that "sit down," or "tarry" means to have an intimate, close relationship with others, especially the Father. It is often expressed of the Son that He is set down on the right hand of the Father, *Hebrews 1:3, 10:12, 12:2, Ephesians 1:20*. Very often, _kathizo_, "sat down" is associated with a throne, as in *Acts 2:30*. Further, *Luke 14:28, 31*, where we are admonished to sit down and count the cost. *Acts 13:14* shows that Paul sat down in the synagogue on the Sabbath and worshipped. The Savior told the disciples to sit--_kathizo_--while He went a short distance to pray, *Matthew 26:36, Mark 14:32*. Again, in *Luke 24:49*they were told to tarry (sit) in Jerusalem until the Holy Spirit would be given.
What does it mean "to tarry"? As we have seen from the above passages, it means:

To sit down and be taught, and teach
To sit in judgment
To have an intimate relationship with the Father
To sit on a throne
To sit down and count the cost
To sit down and worship
To sit down and pray with others
This is what the disciples were to be doing until it was time to receive the Spirit. 
This time, unlike Gethsemane, they were patient. They did not go to sleep. The Messiah was seen by hundreds of disciples, *I Corinthians 15:1-9*. There were many infallible proofs during the forty days of the resurrected Savior's teaching, *Acts 1:1-3*. During a meal, after they had been with him for 40 days, He commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, *Acts 1:4-5*. This power would enable them to be witnesses of the Messiah in all the world, *verses 6-8*. The promise had actually been made the night of the Passover, before they left to go to Gethsemane, *John 14:16-17, 16:7-16*. 
*Ten More Days to Wait!*​After forty days, the Savior was not to be seen again by them. He was taken up to Heaven into a cloud and out of their sight. He gave them a blessing, and departed from them, and was carried up into heaven, *Luke 24:51*. Two angels announced that He would return on this very spot, the Mount of Olives, *Acts 1:9-12, Zechariah 14:4-9*. 
Ten more days to tarry! What an eternity it must have been! So they returned, gathered together, continuing with one accord in prayer and supplication, *Acts 1:12-14*. They were joyful, worshipping Him, and were continually in the temple praising and blessing the Almighty, *Luke 24:50-53*. The eleven had to sit in judgment, because a replacement for Judas had to be found. So, the lot of judgment fell upon Matthias, who was now to be numbered with the others who would sit upon the twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel, *Acts 1:15-26*. 
They had to sit down, count the cost, sit down and pray, worship, have an intimate relationship with the Father and with one another in prayer, teaching and supplication. They were not yet ready to go out and be witnesses of Him to all the world, with great power and miracles. 
It was time to sit down. It was time to tarry--_kathizo_.


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## chicacanella (Dec 21, 2008)

Scripture on reaping and sowing.

*Galatians 6:7-9 (King James Version)*



 7Be not deceived; God is not mocked: *for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. *
 8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; *but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. * *9And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.*


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## MonaRae (Dec 22, 2008)

chicacanella said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> I have been praying for the baptism of the holy spirit for some time now and I believe that God will give it to me.
> 
> ...


 
Question:  Did you read in the Bible that speaking in tongue is the evidence of the Holy Ghost?  I really want to know where this comes from.

Paul said in I Corthians 13:1 "_Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal._"

Now Charity is Love and as stated in I John 4:16 "_And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him._"

God some times works in that still small voice and there are also time when He causes us to shout to the Heaven while dwelling in His presence.  To base your salvation on speaking in tongue is not enough, for you must have the Giver of the Gifts. "When the true Holy Spirit comes in it’s the Life of Christ living in a human being!"

Its not at all mention in the Bible that Jesus spoke with tongues nor of John the Baptist who while still in his mother’s womb received the Holy Ghost.  Elisabeth (John the Baptist mother) was filled with the Holy Ghost and prophesied.  His ways are past finding out.

Remember Romans 11:29 saids “_For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance._”   Again, His ways are past finding out.  I leave you with Psalms 27:14 “_Wait on the LORD: be of good courage, and he shall strengthen thine heart: wait, I say, on the LORD._”


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## PaperClip (Dec 22, 2008)

MonaRae said:


> Question: Did you read in the Bible that speaking in tongue is the evidence of the Holy Ghost? I really want to know where this comes from.
> 
> Paul said in I Corthians 13:1 "_Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal._"
> 
> ...


 
Acts 2: 1-4
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 

Acts 2:38-39
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.


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## MonaRae (Dec 22, 2008)

Thanks FoxyScholar but there are 9 gifts of the Holy Ghost why only use 1?


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## PaperClip (Dec 22, 2008)

MonaRae said:


> Thanks FoxyScholar but there are 9 gifts of the Holy Ghost why only use 1?


 
Acts 2:39 states that the gift or infilling of the Holy Spirit is AVAILABLE TO ALL, by the words "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call."

The "gifts" or MANIFESTATIONS of the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12 is exactly that: A MANIFESTATION that occurs at the time, place, and person in which the Holy Spirit wants to use/display at that particular time/place/space/person.

I think the word "gift" in the KJV translation has confused a lot of things/people.

Yes, it is a gift because the LORD JESUS CHRIST gave the Holy Spirit (has made the Holy Spirit available/accessible) to everyone and anyone who wants to receive the gift, freely, without us doing anything to earn it.


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## klb120475 (Dec 22, 2008)

FoxyScholar said:


> Acts 2:39 states that the gift or infilling of the Holy Spirit is AVAILABLE TO ALL, by the words "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call."
> 
> The "gifts" or MANIFESTATIONS of the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12 is exactly that: A MANIFESTATION that occurs at the time, place, and person in which the Holy Spirit wants to use/display at that particular time/place/space/person.
> 
> ...


 
You on point!!!!!!!!!


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## MonaRae (Dec 22, 2008)

FoxyScholar said:


> Acts 2:39 states that the gift or infilling of the Holy Spirit is AVAILABLE TO ALL, by the words "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call."
> 
> The "gifts" or MANIFESTATIONS of the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12 is exactly that: A MANIFESTATION that occurs at the time, place, and person in which the Holy Spirit wants to use/display at that particular time/place/space/person.
> 
> ...


 
No doubt that Acts 2:38 -9 is for all that will accept it.  Did you mean 1 Corinthians 7?  That chapter deals with Husbands and Wives.

Thanks for your time.  I really did wonder where that came from.


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## PaperClip (Dec 22, 2008)

MonaRae said:


> No doubt that Acts 2:38 -9 is for all that will accept it. Did you mean 1 Corinthians 7? That chapter deals with Husbands and Wives.
> 
> Thanks for your time. I really did wonder where that came from.


 
Availability comes before acceptance. In other words, the Holy Spirit is available to all and the Lord has given everyone free will to accept or reject when their call comes.

Here's the link to 1 Corinthians 12
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians 12;&version=9;

Here's verse 7 of that chapter: "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal." (KJV)

But to each one is given the manifestation of the [Holy] Spirit [the evidence, the spiritual illumination of the Spirit] for good and profit. (Amplified)


I like the way The Message says verse 11: "All these gifts have a common origin, but are handed out one by one by the one Spirit of God.* He decides who gets what, and when."*


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## MonaRae (Dec 22, 2008)

FoxyScholar said:


> Availability comes before acceptance. In other words, the Holy Spirit is available to all and the Lord has given everyone free will to accept or reject when their call comes.
> 
> Here's the link to 1 Corinthians 12
> http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians 12;&version=9;
> ...


 
Amen!  Enjoyed the chat!


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 23, 2008)

chicacanella said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> Hi, can I ask you why you want it?  To speak in other tongues?  I hope my questions don't trouble anyone (winkin' atcha  FoxxyScholar).  I'd be interested in anyone's response.  IMHO, if you have become christian and baptised in the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, you have already been baptised through the Holy Spirit.  This article might explain somewhat, "The Purpose of Pentecost":
> [...
> ...


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## chicacanella (Dec 23, 2008)

The reason why I want the baptism of the holy spirit is so that I can proclaim the Word of God with boldness, to be able to have hear him distinctly without wondering. If he tells me to, "go left," I want to go left. 

I know that I definitely have the infilling of the holy spirit as people who are saved by the blood of Jesus should. But I believe that the baptism in the holy spirit is just another level. For instance, we as humans drink water which goes in our body. But humans also have the ability to be immersed in water and when they are totally immersed, wherever they go there is water. I liken this to the holy spirit. 

Those who are saved have the holy spirit in them and when they need guidance, the holy spirit guides them. But when you are immersed in the holy spirit, their is not only power in you but also on the outside. And with you being immersed in the holy spirit, people around you will be able to feel the power too. With someone that isn't baptised, I believe people may sense a difference in you but they may not totally feel the power of God simply from being in your prescence.

I may be wrong but that is how I see it. Anyhow, my ultimate reason is because I want to do God's will.


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## MonaRae (Dec 23, 2008)

You're not wrong at all chicacanella.  When we are baptised according to Acts 2:38 we shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost!  But to be Baptised of the Holy Spirit (ahh) this is the Giver of the Gift dwelling within you!  Also known as the Adoption 

Romans 8:15
"_For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father."_

John 3:17 
"_And a voice from heaven saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."_

It is custom with the Jew to adoption their very own.  This adoption tell the world that my son is learned in the family business and if he should write a check its the same as if I (the Father) wrote it.

chicacanella you are thristing for the right thing!  I will keep you in my prayers for the Lord has placed you in my heart.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 23, 2008)

MonaRae said:


> You're not wrong at all chicacanella. When we are baptised according to Acts 2:38 we shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost! But to be Baptised of the Holy Spirit (ahh) this is the Giver of the Gift dwelling within you! Also known as the Adoption
> 
> Romans 8:15
> "_For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father."_
> ...


 
Many of the things written here I've never heard of before.  I'm wondering if "adoption" might mean the ingrafting whereby gentiles can now call G-d "Abba."  They are now under the new Covenant whereas before, they were under no covenant???  BTW, I'm in the process of learning.

GUess I better edit right here too:

Question for Chicanella.  So, the baptism of the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with baptism itself?


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## PaperClip (Dec 23, 2008)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> chicacanella;6474817[/quote said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Ms.Honey (Dec 23, 2008)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Many of the things written here I've never heard of before. I'm wondering if "adoption" might mean the ingrafting whereby gentiles can now call G-d "Abba." They are now under the new Covenant whereas before, they were under no covenant??? BTW, I'm in the process of learning.
> 
> GUess I better edit right here too:
> 
> Question for Chicanella. So, the baptism of the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with baptism itself?


 
Yep, the bible teaches that we former gentiles (not part of the promise) are adopted, engrafted etc. into the family through Jesus' bloodline. The Lord has not rejected the Jews (read Hebrews). After the rapture it will be the Jews who will bring people into the Body at a greater rate than they do now. This is the time of the gentiles to evangelize the world, soon it will be the time of the Jews to do it.

Water baptism and the Baptism of the Holy Ghost are different events (read Acts).


----------



## chicacanella (Dec 23, 2008)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Many of the things written here I've never heard of before. I'm wondering if "adoption" might mean the ingrafting whereby gentiles can now call G-d "Abba." They are now under the new Covenant whereas before, they were under no covenant??? BTW, I'm in the process of learning.
> 
> GUess I better edit right here too:
> 
> Question for Chicanella. So, the baptism of the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with baptism itself?


 

I believe you are talkin about water baptism. With water baptism, I believe this is just like a declaration or affirmation before God, heaven and any witnesses that you have given your life to him. I believe that when someoen is saved the holy spirit immediately comes into their body and life. The water in the baptism is symbolic to me as if the person is dying to their old nature and self and now becoming a new creature. This doesn't mean you received the baptism of the holy spirit but is an outward act that you are a child of God.

The baptism by water is something physical though there are probably spiritual things that occur which we can't see.  But the baptism of the holy spirit is spiritual in which he comes upon you and then later on the physical manifestations such as his gifts, tongues will be present.


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## PaperClip (Dec 23, 2008)

chicacanella said:


> I believe you are talkin about water baptism. With water baptism, I believe this is just like a declaration or affirmation before God, heaven and any witnesses that you have given your life to him. *I believe that when someoen is saved the holy spirit immediately comes into their body and life.* The water in the baptism is symbolic to me as if the person is dying to their old nature and self and now becoming a new creature. This doesn't mean you received the baptism of the holy spirit but is an outward act that you are a child of God.
> 
> The baptism by water is something physical though there are probably spiritual things that occur which we can't see. But the baptism of the holy spirit is spiritual in which he comes upon you and then later on the physical manifestations such as his gifts, tongues will be present.


 
Per the bolded: any bible scripture to substantiate this?


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## chicacanella (Dec 23, 2008)

FoxyScholar said:


> Per the bolded: any bible scripture to substantiate this?


 
*Ephesians 1:13-14 (New International Version)*

13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.


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## PaperClip (Dec 23, 2008)

chicacanella said:


> *Ephesians 1:13-14 (New International Version)*
> 
> 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.


 
Good start.... in part... but how is this seal evidenced? How will/does the Lord know who we are? Yes, I know the Lord is sovereign and omnicient.... And yet it is His pattern to have a SIGN... what is the sign of that seal?

***I'm asking these probing questions in a non-confrontational tone to provoke thought***


----------



## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 23, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> Yep, the bible teaches that we former gentiles (not part of the promise) are adopted, engrafted etc. into the family through Jesus' bloodline. The Lord has not rejected the Jews (read Hebrews). After the rapture it will be the Jews who will bring people into the Body at a greater rate than they do now. This is the time of the gentiles to evangelize the world, soon it will be the time of the Jews to do it.
> 
> Water baptism and the Baptism of the Holy Ghost are different events (read Acts).


 
But in light of baptism that requires the Holy Spirit?  Pentecost in Acts refers to the birth of the Church.  As far as those past Pentecost speaing tongues, I'm wondering that if the Catholic Church/Orthodox Church (east and west) call it something else?  If they, at all, distinguish it in the individual's life and not just refer to it as that one-time event in man's history?  I don't truy "buy" the rapture and have been taught that the bible is literal and allegorical.   

I had to chuckle.  You reminded me of something my kids said once.  Jesus wasn't a christian lol.  No, course not, regarding rejection.  G-d has made His Covenant with Jews for all eternity.  In fact, He commanded that the "Law"  be followed always.  Deut. 11:1


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 23, 2008)

chicacanella said:


> I believe you are talkin about water baptism. With water baptism, I believe this is just like a declaration or affirmation before God, heaven and any witnesses that you have given your life to him. I believe that when someoen is saved the holy spirit immediately comes into their body and life. The water in the baptism is symbolic to me as if the person is dying to their old nature and self and now becoming a new creature. This doesn't mean you received the baptism of the holy spirit but is an outward act that you are a child of God.
> 
> The baptism by water is something physical though there are probably spiritual things that occur which we can't see. But the baptism of the holy spirit is spiritual in which he comes upon you and then later on the physical manifestations such as his gifts, tongues will be present.


 

You know, if you don't ask, you'll never know how anyone else views things.  Thank you.  I'm going to be asking some folks about this over in the catholic realm.  I'll be printing them out (without names, of course) so I can get them as you all have explained them.  Thanks.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 23, 2008)

FoxyScholar said:


> Good start.... in part... but how is this seal evidenced? How will/does the Lord know who we are? Yes, I know the Lord is sovereign and omnicient.... And yet it is His pattern to have a SIGN... what is the sign of that seal?
> 
> ***I'm asking these probing questions in a non-confrontational tone to provoke thought***


 

So, are you saying that sign if speaking in tongues?  Would He not know His own through their works???  Don't laught...perhaps the sign of the cross on the forehead???  I'm laughing at my own self right now.

REMIX:  Baptism itself as the new sign?  

BTW, the real intelligent discussions seem to be over here!!!  Substantiated discussions.


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## chicacanella (Dec 23, 2008)

FoxyScholar said:


> Good start.... in part... but how is this seal evidenced? How will/does the Lord know who we are? Yes, I know the Lord is sovereign and omnicient.... And yet it is His pattern to have a SIGN... what is the sign of that seal?
> 
> ***I'm asking these probing questions in a non-confrontational tone to provoke thought***


 
I believe the fruit of the holy spirit is a sign BUT I do believe in many Christians, the holy spirit can be stiffled. 

Galatians 5:6-18, 22-25 (Fruit of the holy spirit)


 14For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 
 15But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 
 16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 
 17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.  18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


We are to be led by the holy spirit and if we are, his fruits should show in us. Jesus said, "You will know them by their fruits." That is one of the things I believes God looks at to see if we have truly served him or not. I believe that some Christians can be covered by the blood but in the department of fruit, they may be lacking.


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## PaperClip (Dec 23, 2008)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> So, are you saying that sign if speaking in tongues? Would He not know His own through their works??? Don't laught...perhaps the sign of the cross on the forehead??? I'm laughing at my own self right now.
> 
> REMIX: Baptism itself as the new sign?
> 
> BTW, the real intelligent discussions seem to be over here!!! Substantiated discussions.


 
Definitely not our works... for who can know if one's works are out of faith or out of some secular humanism or universalism or anything other than the Lord Jesus Christ?

2 Timothy 1:9: (Amplified)
[For it is He] Who delivered and saved us and called us with a calling in itself holy and leading to holiness [to a life of consecration, a vocation of holiness]; [He did it] not because of anything of merit that we have done, but because of and to further His own purpose and grace (unmerited favor) which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began [eternal ages ago].

Titus 3:4-6 (Amplified)

But when the goodness and loving-kindness of God our Savior to man [as man] appeared, He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but because of His own pity and mercy, by [the] cleansing [bath] of the new birth (regeneration) and renewing of the Holy Spirit, Which He poured out [so] richly upon us through Jesus Christ our Savior.


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## PaperClip (Dec 23, 2008)

chicacanella said:


> I believe the fruit of the holy spirit is a sign BUT I do believe in many Christians, the holy spirit can be stiffled.
> 
> Galatians 5:6-18, 22-25 (Fruit of the holy spirit)
> 
> ...


 
The fruit of the spirit is a sign of exactly what? That the Holy Spirit is exists? Or is the fruit of the spirit a MANIFESTATION? Hmm... maybe that's the better question:

How does the Holy Spirit manifest Himself in the believer? What specific instances? How does the Holy Spirit reside within the believer on a continual basis?

Bottom line: we can't do ANY of the things that the Bible compels us to do WITHOUT the Holy Spirit. Yes, the fruit of the Spirit, so on and so forth. These are codes of conduct for the believer.

But what is the specific evidence of the Holy Spirit's indwelling, manifestation?


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## MonaRae (Dec 23, 2008)

FoxyScholar said:


> The fruit of the spirit is a sign of exactly what? That the Holy Spirit is exists? Or is the fruit of the spirit a MANIFESTATION? Hmm... maybe that's the better question:
> 
> How does the Holy Spirit manifest Himself in the believer? What specific instances? How does the Holy Spirit reside within the believer on a continual basis?
> 
> ...


 
Agape Love; for God is Love!


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## Ms.Honey (Dec 23, 2008)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> But in light of baptism that requires the Holy Spirit? Pentecost in Acts refers to the birth of the Church. As far as those past Pentecost speaing tongues, I'm wondering that if the Catholic Church/Orthodox Church (east and west) call it something else? If they, at all, distinguish it in the individual's life and not just refer to it as that one-time event in man's history? I don't truy "buy" the rapture and have been taught that the bible is literal and allegorical.
> 
> I had to chuckle. You reminded me of something my kids said once. Jesus wasn't a christian lol. No, course not, regarding rejection. G-d has made His Covenant with Jews for all eternity. In fact, He commanded that the "Law" be followed always. Deut. 11:1


 
Water baptism is an outward sign of an inner grace. It's a sign to the world that you've made your allegiance with Christ. The Baptism of the Holy Ghost is an empowerment promised by Jesus to all generations, not ending with the early church. The book of Acts speaks of people receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit past Pentacost, you have to read the WHOLE book of Acts.

All Israel is not of the promise. He speaks of who specifically is Israel. He said all in Israel is not of Israel (Rom. 9:6) and Abraham had many sons not just Ishmael and Issac, but not all will be blessed in the same way. He speaks of who is Israel," Your mother is a Hittite(black woman) and your father is an Amorite (Eze. 16)


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## PaperClip (Dec 23, 2008)

MonaRae said:


> Agape Love; for God is Love!


 
Yes, this is true. This is how THE WORLD will know us: by our love. ETA: I suppose not only the world, but everyone in the world, fellow believers and everybody else).
"By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another" (St. John 13:35, KJV).

 34-35"Let me give you a new command: Love one another. In the same way I loved you, you love one another. This is how everyone will recognize that you are my disciples—when they see the love you have for each other." (The Message)

We demonstrate agape love by our conduct (not (necessarily) by our works) but in how we behave and treat others. 

And yet the Holy Spirit has a specific purpose and function for each and every believer. What is that sign, that evidence that is accessible to EVERY BELIEVER? (Acts 2:38-29).


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## Ms.Honey (Dec 23, 2008)

I have not physically sinned since day I received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost on Pentacost Sunday 1997. The Baptism enabled me to keep His commandments.

Eze.36:27
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].



Isa 28:9 
Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? [them that are] weaned from the milk, [and] drawn from the breasts. 

 Isa 28:10 
For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little: 

 Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 

Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This [is] the rest [wherewith] ye may cause the weary to rest; and this [is] the refreshing: yet they would not hear. 


 Isa 28:13 
But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. 



Jer 31:31
 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 


 Jer 31:32 
not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 


 Jer 31:33 
"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 


 Jer 31:34
 "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." 


 Jer 31:35 
Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name: 


 Jer 31:36
 "If this fixed order departs From before Me," declares the LORD, "Then the offspring of Israel also will cease From being a nation before Me forever." 


 Jer 31:37 
Thus says the LORD, "If the heavens above can be measured And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done," declares the LORD. 


 Jer 31:38
 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when the city will be rebuilt for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 


 Jer 31:39
 "The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah. 


 Jer 31:40
 "And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD; it will not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever."


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## Ms.Honey (Dec 23, 2008)

FoxyScholar said:


> Yes, this is true. This is how THE WORLD will know us: by our love. ETA: I suppose not only the world, but everyone in the world, fellow believers and everybody else).
> "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another" (St. John 13:35, KJV).
> 
> 34-35"Let me give you a new command: Love one another. In the same way I loved you, you love one another. This is how everyone will recognize that you are my disciples—when they see the love you have for each other." (The Message)
> ...


 
Speaking in Tongues is that sign.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 24, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> Water baptism is an outward sign of an inner grace. It's a sign to the world that you've made your allegiance with Christ. The Baptism of the Holy Ghost is an empowerment promised by Jesus to all generations, not ending with the early church. The book of Acts speaks of people receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit past Pentacost, you have to read the WHOLE book of Acts.
> 
> All Israel is not of the promise. He speaks of who specifically is Israel. He said all in Israel is not of Israel (Rom. 9:6) and Abraham had many sons not just Ishmael and Issac, but not all will be blessed in the same way. He speaks of who is Israel," Your mother is a Hittite(black woman) and your father is an Amorite (Eze. 16)


 

I was talking about physical Israel and Jews (not gentiles grafted in) and the Covenant which is still into play.  According to older christian tradition, there is no salvation without baptism.  Either way, I don't see where there is a difference...you get baptised and are born into the family of G-d as a christian...and the HOly Spirit now lives within you.  The Divine Presence.  Whether or not one speaks in tongues...the Holy Spirit is still living within the person.  You don't get a smidgeon of G-d, you get the whole shebang.  I mean to say that speaking in tongues doesn't make one more christian or serious about one's christian walk with Christ.

When you say that speaking in tongues is that sign...do you mean salvation???


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## Ms.Honey (Dec 24, 2008)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> I was talking about physical Israel and Jews (not gentiles grafted in) and the Covenant which is still into play. According to older christian tradition, there is no salvation without baptism. Either way, I don't see where there is a difference...you get baptised and are born into the family of G-d as a christian...and the HOly Spirit now lives within you. The Divine Presence. Whether or not one speaks in tongues...the Holy Spirit is still living within the person. You don't get a smidgeon of G-d, you get the whole shebang. *I mean to say that speaking in tongues doesn't make one more christian or serious about one's christian walk with Christ.*
> 
> When you say that speaking in tongues is that sign...do you mean salvation???


 
Did someone actually say that in this thread? I don't recall that. Tongues is a sign that you have received the Baptism.

Some folks tradition may say that but the bible does not say that you need to be baptized with water or receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to go to heaven or to receive salvation. What it does say is the Baptism stregthens us to keep His commandments among other things.


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## chicacanella (Dec 24, 2008)

FoxyScholar said:


> The fruit of the spirit is a sign of exactly what? That the Holy Spirit is exists? Or is the fruit of the spirit a MANIFESTATION? Hmm... maybe that's the better question:
> 
> How does the Holy Spirit manifest Himself in the believer? What specific instances? How does the Holy Spirit reside within the believer on a continual basis?
> 
> ...


 

Hmmm, for me it would have been yesterday. When I prayed and the atmosphere became thick with the prescence of God so much that me and the yound man I witnessed to were weak. He felt it, I felt it...it was no halluciantion but the real thing. The power of God.  

BUT just because the holy spirit flows through me like this doesn't mean that when every Christian prays, the same thing will happen.  This is the first time it happened to me and I have been saved for some time now but the power was stiffled because of the life I lived. This is why I don't want to say there is any "specific" evidence because one could be a Christian and have it yet, not get the same results I do. It doesn't mean that the holy spirit is not indwelling in them though. 

But as I read your second to last comment, I think you answered the question yourself.

"Bottom line: we can't do ANY of the things that the Bible compels us to do WITHOUT the Holy Spirit. Yes, the fruit of the Spirit, so on and so forth. These are codes of conduct for the believer."

So, to the last question: But what is the specific evidence of the Holy Spirit's indwelling, manifestation?

I believe the your quote is indeed is one of the ways the holy spirit manifests itself in a believer.  

Catch you later.


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## chicacanella (Dec 24, 2008)

goign to bed.


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## firecracker (Dec 24, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> Did someone actually say that in this thread? I don't recall that. Tongues is a sign that you have received the Baptism.
> 
> Some folks tradition may say that but the bible does not say that you need to be baptized with water or receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to go to heaven or to receive salvation. What it does say is the Baptism stregthens us to keep His commandments among other things.


 When did tongues start being a sign of recieving Baptism?  The last paragrah is true.  Gossiping and wishing bad on others that we don't agree with is a sin also.


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## firecracker (Dec 24, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> That's why I said some folks getting emotional and letting go also. Some folks get caught up being in His presence and will breakdown crying, fall to their knees etc. but some of it is just folks acting the fool  BUT it is controllable. The Holy Spirit isn't making folks run laps around the sanctuary


 I question folks that can leap into the speaking of tongues in 2n2 (Ms Covan comes to mind) and someone that says while in worship when they sing ole skool hymns things like they don't have enough room for me in this space.   Those two folks like to show out and fake the funk.


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## PaperClip (Dec 24, 2008)

chicacanella said:


> Hmmm, for me it would have been yesterday. When I prayed and the atmosphere became thick with the prescence of God so much that me and the yound man I witnessed to were weak. He felt it, I felt it...it was no halluciantion but the real thing. The power of God.
> 
> BUT just because the holy spirit flows through me like this doesn't mean that when every Christian prays, the same thing will happen. This is the first time it happened to me and I have been saved for some time now but the power was stiffled because of the life I lived. This is why I don't want to say there is any "specific" evidence because one could be a Christian and have it yet, not get the same results I do. It doesn't mean that the holy spirit is not indwelling in them though.
> 
> ...


 
What you've shared about being divinely led by the Holy Spirit to minister to others and personal devotional time are absolutely included in the ways and means by which we interact and have such awesome encounters with and through the Holy Spirit. Wonderful! But those instances are just that: encounters. I call for and challenge us go beyond encounters to seek and have RELATIONSHIP with the LORD JESUS CHRIST through the Holy Spirit, starting with that speaking that heavenly language unto the Lord.

I believe that the fundamental, basic, core purpose and function of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer is to, as Ms. Honey said, to empower the Christian to do and have those things that you mentioned.

St. John 14:26: But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

St. John 15:26: But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 

I STRONGLY ADVOCATE for speaking in tongues because of what the scriptures say (cited upthread) and because of WHO and what the Holy Spirit means to me. I don't think we should "cop out" the Holy Spirit by simplifying such encounters to a "it doesn't happen the same for everybody" and to use that to justify that every believer should not DESIRE, EXPECT and RECEIVE this PROMISE from the LORD JESUS CHRIST.



firecracker said:


> I question folks that can leap into the speaking of tongues in 2n2 (Ms Covan comes to mind) and someone that says while in worship when they sing ole skool hymns things like they don't have enough room for me in this space.  Those two folks like to show out and fake the funk.


 
What's 2n2?

I can speak in tongues at will. But do I do it if I'm standing in line at the MAC counter?  For several reasons, amongst them listed in scriptures cited upthread, e.g., because people don't understand your heavenly language and therefore isn't as edifying. But have there been times when I have been very TICKED OFF and I need to calm down, I will speak in my heavenly language under my breath to maintain my composure/to hold myself together.

I don't play with the Holy Spirit. I do my best to respect the sacred and holy presence of the Holy Spirit and the things of the Holy Spirit.


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## plainj (Dec 24, 2008)

chicacanella said:


> The reason why I want the baptism of the holy spirit is so that I can proclaim the Word of God with boldness, to be able to have hear him distinctly without wondering. If he tells me to, "go left," I want to go left.
> 
> I know that I definitely have the infilling of the holy spirit as people who are saved by the blood of Jesus should. But I believe that the baptism in the holy spirit is just another level. For instance, we as humans drink water which goes in our body. But humans also have the ability to be immersed in water and when they are totally immersed, wherever they go there is water. I liken this to the holy spirit.
> 
> ...


Very well stated. I really could not have said it better. My pastor truly has this anointing. I want this too. I want God's power to touch people, to move people. I went into a local restaurant and the owner said that my pastor had been in there a few days earlier. He was delighted by my pastor (pastor is very charismatic). The owner said that when the pastor left the store, business had picked up like it never had before. He associated that with my pastor. He gets this reaction wherever he goes. 
@chicanella: I was reading your thread where you brought someone to Jesus. I want to be able to do that too. Whenever I have the opportunity, the words fail me. I suppose I'm just not ready yet. In the meantime I'll do it through my example.


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## Ms.Honey (Dec 24, 2008)

firecracker said:


> When did tongues start being a sign of recieving Baptism? The last paragrah is true.Gossiping and wishing bad on others that we don't agree with is a sin also.


 
Tongues is a sign that you have received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost not water baptism. They are two totally different things.



firecracker said:


> I question folks that can leap into the speaking of tongues in 2n2 (Ms Covan comes to mind) and someone that says while in worship when they sing ole skool hymns things like they don't have enough room for me in this space.  Those two folks like to show out and fake the funk.


 
Christians who speak in tongues can speak in tongues whenever they choose. It is a gift of God to be used to speak privately with Him. I have know idea of what you're talking about with the rest of your statement.


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## chicacanella (Dec 24, 2008)

What you've shared about being divinely led by the Holy Spirit to minister to others and personal devotional time are absolutely included in the ways and means by which we interact and have such awesome encounters with and through the Holy Spirit. Wonderful! But those instances are just that: encounters. I call for and challenge us go beyond encounters to seek and have RELATIONSHIP with the LORD JESUS CHRIST through the Holy Spirit, starting with that speaking that heavenly language unto the Lord.

Humbly, I say that because I have been seeking God I believe that he is going to baptize me in his holy spirit but I 
can’t speak in tongues until God decides that He will baptize me in his holy spirit. The only thing I can do is continue to do what I am doing and lean not to my own understanding but know that God works in His own time and when he is ready, it will happen.

I do as he tells me to do and have been growing and continuing to tarry for baptism of the holy spirit and I truly with all my heart believe that this encounter would not have happened if I hadn’t been worshipping, praying, reading my bible, etc. I didn't seek the encounter, the holy spirit led me to witness. When I saw the young man, I said, "It's no coincidence that we met today," but I didn't think that God was going to use me to bring him into his kingdom that very day. I had no idea...I wasn't going around thinking, "Hmmmm, let me see how I am going to have an encounter with the holy spirit." It happened because through faith, I listened, believed and was led to show him love first and foremost. Then as I did, this the holy spirit used me to speak in other ways, speaking God's Word many times without the young man even knowing it.

I believe that the fundamental, basic, core purpose and function of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer is to, as Ms. Honey said, to empower the Christian to do and have those things that you mentioned.

*I am glad you are asking these questions and I am searching, praying to God for discernment to any answers I find. Even though every believer has the holy spirit, it doesn’t mean that they will follow his guidance as they should. Many times, continuous sin in a person’s life stifles the holy spirit. Ephesians 4:30 This is one of the reasons all Christians do not demonstrate the power/gifts that he wishes them to have and a reason I do not advocate any type of sin because I know that it not only hurts the person, but the body of Christ, the world, and most importantly isn’t pleasing to God, His son and holy spirit.*

This quote perfectly describes what I have been thinking:

*Purpose of the Baptism in the Spirit*
The purpose of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is manifold. He is poured out so that all the 13 works and purposes of the Holy Spirit mentioned above might be. *The Holy Spirit of course will be wanting to do these things in every believer,* not just those actually *baptised* in the Spirit. But these things are much more *easily and naturally realised* in those who have been baptised in the Spirit and speak in tongues. To achieve His purposes in the believer's life, the Holy Spirit usually requires the voluntary submission of the believer. We must trust God's Spirit to lead us in our battle with the world, the flesh and the devil. 

In short, the purpose of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is that men and women will become not only children of God, but children of God like Jesus the Son of God in nature, holiness and power. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit gives us the same possibilities of relationship to the Father and power ministry as Jesus had in His earthly ministry. God wants us to move into these possibilities. The Scriptures make this intention of God clear to us in Scriptures such as John 14:12 and John 17:22. God does not expect us to do the works of Jesus and to be holy as He is holy without having available to us the same measure of the Holy Spirit as Jesus had. But like Jesus, we need to be completely dependent as submissive to the Holy Spirit if we want His purposes in and through us to be fully accomplished. For the baptism in the Spirit is no substitute for the day-by-day choices the believer must make to keep submitting to the revealed will of God. 
The main purpose of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit in this life then is to give us more power to demonstrate Christ and win people to Him, so that they can be saved. (Acts 1:8). All other things being equal, the believer baptised in the Spirit will have more success in preaching the gospel, because the Holy Spirit is freer to work through him. The Holy Spirit has many ways to convince people. The Holy Spirit gives us power to heal the sick and cast out demons (Mark 16:17,18) so that people can see and know that Jesus is alive and that his salvation is real and makes a difference. It is much easier to lead people to Christ after they have been healed through Christ's power by the laying on of hands of the Spirit-filled believer, for example. With the Holy Spirit working through many believers, there are actually greater possibilities for the effective proclamation of the gospel of the Kingdom that there were in the days of Jesus' earthly ministry. The Baptism in the Spirit therefore is an essential ingredient in the plan of God to multiply Jesus' earthly ministry of preaching, healing and casting out demons so that He can touch the whole world with its billions of people. 

http://www.christian-faith.com/forjesus/baptism-in-the-Holy-Spirit

I STRONGLY ADVOCATE for speaking in tongues because of what the scriptures say (cited upthread) and because of WHO and what the Holy Spirit means to me. I don't think we should "cop out" the Holy Spirit by simplifying such encounters to a "it doesn't happen the same for everybody" and to use that to justify that every believer should not DESIRE, EXPECT and RECEIVE this PROMISE from the LORD JESUS CHRIST.

*When I say that some Christians don't have these encounters, I'm not trying to use this as a cop out. I am saying that just because they may not have had the power of the holy spirit flowing though them as I did the other day, does not mean that they don't have the seal of the holy spirit nor did I want anyone reading to be led to think that. I believe that by seeking God, obeyin his Word will strengthen them and pray that all of us in the body of Christ do this. *

*In the bible, it talks about how God will reward each according to what he has done. When we refer this scripture to Christians, I believe that not everyone will receive the same things from God even though they are saved by the blood and have the indwelling of the holy spirit. In no way am I saying they shouldn't have it, because I believe it is crucial to completely walking in His will which also includes His work that he has assigened to each of us. *

Your comments in black, mine in purple and third-party commentary in blue.


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## chicacanella (Dec 24, 2008)

*Only when I began to seek God, began to pray and ask him for the baptism of the holy spirit have I ever witnessed and experienced such glorious power that didn't come from another Christian praying for me, but instead this time it was flowing through me. This is how I feel that even though some Christians are covered by the blood and have the holy spirit, some of their works built on Christ who is the foundation are faulty and will be tested by fire. This doesn't mean that because they don't perform the works that I do that they do not have the holy spirit but we each will be rewarded according to what we have done. And personally, I don't want to scare anyone but when I read this verse I pray that many in the body of Christ stops abusing the grace of God because I do believe that those who continue in this behavior risk losing their salvation. I know many say this isn’t possible but I believe it is. I believe if someone begins to serve God in the beginning and are a true Christian but then turn back to their old ways that start not only living in the world, but becoming of the world that their salvation can be at risk. This is why I do not want to play around or abuse God’s grace cause as His Word says, he will not be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. I believe it is up to each of us to sincerely do our best, be led by the holy spirit and not habitually sin just because we know that we are forgiven by God and saved by his grace and having faith enough to believe. http://www.bible-knowledge.com/Lose-Your-Salvation.html*

*1 Corinthians 3:10-16 (Contemporary English Version)*

*Only One Foundation*

10God was kind and let me become an expert builder. I laid a foundation on which others have built. But we must each be careful how we build, 11because Christ is the only foundation. 12-13Whatever we build on that foundation will be tested by fire on the day of judgment. Then everyone will find out if we have used gold, silver, and precious stones, or wood, hay, and straw. 14We will be rewarded if our building is left standing. 15But if it is destroyed by the fire, we will lose everything. Yet we ourselves will be saved, like someone escaping from flames. 
16All of you surely know that you are God's temple and that his Spirit lives in you. 

*I would pray and hope that everyone seeks God first and through this seeking receives the baptism of the holy spirit upon asking so that through the gathering of souls brought into the His kingdom, he would be glorified. Yet, I know this is not true. Again, that was what I was trying to explain why everyone who is a Christian and has the holy spirit may not experience what I did and didn't want to believe that they didn't have him. I encourage everyone to seek God and the gifts and power he has for them. This is why I made the thread encouraging my fellow Christians sisters who haven't worshipped God in their own home, by themselves to start.  I believe that we can live a righteous life before God, so that he will accept our worship. Some may believe that he accepts all worship yet God said that obedience is better than sacraficing.  Obedience is a form of worship, yet also singing, praising and lifting our hands is also a form of worshipping God. And for me, I learned this act really brings me closer to him.*


What's 2n2?

I can speak in tongues at will. But do I do it if I'm standing in line at the MAC counter? For several reasons, amongst them listed in scriptures cited upthread, e.g., because people don't understand your heavenly language and therefore isn't as edifying. But have there been times when I have been very TICKED OFF and I need to calm down, I will speak in my heavenly language under my breath to maintain my composure/to hold myself together.

I don't play with the Holy Spirit. I do my best to respect the sacred and holy presence of the Holy Spirit and the things of the Holy Spirit.


*Thank you all for fellowshipping with me as this thread has truly been a blessing. You guys are helping to strengthen me and I believe this information will be of good use one day when explaining to someone. Let's keep the dialogue rolling! *


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## firecracker (Dec 24, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> Tongues is a sign that you have received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost not water baptism. They are two totally different things.
> 
> 
> 
> Christians who speak in tongues can speak in tongues whenever they choose. It is a gift of God to be used to speak privately with Him. I have know idea of what you're talking about with the rest of your statement.


 I could careless about phonies that think is a special gift to use whenever, whereever yada yada yada.  Everyone praises God differently.  No one has a blue print on the holy ghost.  My last statement isn't hard to understand but it maybe hard to remember.  Sin is sin.


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## Ms.Honey (Dec 24, 2008)

firecracker said:


> I could careless about phonies that think is a special gift to use whenever, whereever yada yada yada. Everyone praises God differently. No one has a blue print on the holy ghost. My last statement isn't hard to understand but it maybe hard to remember. Sin is sin.


 
What I don't understand is why you are making a big deal out of folks receiving the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. If you don't want to receive it then don't ask for it, simple. Folks posted that they do want to receive it so they asked for it and about it.

And yes a sin is a sin, no one denies that but it's also true that when you go to set a snare for someone you fall into your own trap. You may want to think about who's really being a phony and also a hypocrite as a Christian before you post. You had to be sinning to be malicious and petty to try to catch me in a lie in the first place (which you and your friend have not)  Focus on your own sins. Is it really that serious?

 I never said that I NEVER sin. Read exactly what I said. What I said was that I have not PHYSICALLY sinned since I received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. I made sure that I said *physically* and not that I *never* sin at all because that's humanly impossible for anyone other than Jesus.  I have sinned since being baptized with the Holy Spirit not PHYSICALLY but in word and thought *AND have repented*, another gift from God, the gift of forgiveness. Didn't know I was expected or needed to go back to tell that to folks I *no longer deal with or speak to* that I had to repent to God for something I said MONTHS ago (don't remember that scripture) but hey I don't USUALLY do disclaimers so enjoy this one. You need to build better traps chica.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 25, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> Did someone actually say that in this thread? I don't recall that. Tongues is a sign that you have received the Baptism.


 
When you replied to FoxxyScholar:

Quote:
Originally Posted by *FoxyScholar* 

 
_Yes, this is true. This is how THE WORLD will know us: by our love. ETA: I suppose not only the world, but everyone in the world, fellow believers and everybody else).
"By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another" (St. John 13:35, KJV).

34-35"Let me give you a new command: Love one another. In the same way I loved you, you love one another. This is how everyone will recognize that you are my disciples—when they see the love you have for each other." (The Message)

We demonstrate agape love by our conduct (not (necessarily) by our works) but in how we behave and treat others. 

And yet the Holy Spirit has a specific purpose and function for each and every believer. What is that sign, that evidence that is accessible to EVERY BELIEVER? (Acts 2:38-29)._


This is what I thought you meant when you replied:

[/quote]Speaking in Tongues is that sign. [/quote]



[/quote]Some folks tradition may say that but the bible does not say that you need to be baptized with water or receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to go to heaven or to receive salvation. What it does say is the Baptism stregthens us to keep His commandments among other things.[/quote]

???In John 3, He declares: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he can not enter into the kingdom of God." (online source)

I believe that christians take this from the Jewish example (as christians were Jews ..then influx of gentiles) as the mikveh or water pool with a natural source in which one is submerged totally to transform body and soul to a higher religious state and in the case of converts, to a new existence.  It was precisely prescribed by Jewish law and one is purified through submersion.  I see a Jewish precedent to baptism.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 25, 2008)

FoxyScholar said:


> I call for and challenge us go beyond encounters to seek and have RELATIONSHIP with the LORD JESUS CHRIST through the Holy Spirit, starting with that speaking that heavenly language unto the Lord.
> 
> I believe that the fundamental, basic, core purpose and function of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer is to, as Ms. Honey said, to empower the Christian to do and have those things that you mentioned.
> 
> .


 
Forgive me...you know I love you...but are you saying that one can't really have a close and personal relationship with Jesus unless they speak heavenly language?  Doesn't Jesus speak English etc.?


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## PaperClip (Dec 25, 2008)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Forgive me...you know I love you...but are you saying that one can't really have a close and personal relationship with Jesus unless they speak heavenly language? Doesn't Jesus speak English etc.?


 
What I'm saying is through the heavenly language, there's ACCESS to an EVEN CLOSER, DEEPER relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.

I feel like I should say for caution (through the guidance of the Holy Spirit) and in response to your post here is to forgive me for overemphasizing(?) speaking in tongues above other workings of the Holy Spirit. I believe I'm in the Word of God when I emphasize and advocate speaking in tongues. I do not mean to say that if one does not speak in tongues that they are not saved, or that they are going to hell and all that. I do believe what the Bible says about speaking in tongues is that outright, tangible, visible EVIDENCE of the infilling of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4)

What I am saying is that speaking in tongues opens ACCESS to an EVEN CLOSER, DEEPER relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ...higher heights and deeper depths in the Lord...in worship...in relationship...in service...in ministry....


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## Ms.Honey (Dec 25, 2008)

firecracker said:


> When did tongues start being a sign of recieving Baptism? The last paragrah is true. Gossiping and wishing bad on others that we don't agree with is a sin also.


 


GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> When you replied to FoxxyScholar:
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *FoxyScholar*
> ...


Speaking in Tongues is that sign. [/quote]



[/quote]Some folks tradition may say that but the bible does not say that you need to be baptized with water or receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to go to heaven or to receive salvation. What it does say is the Baptism stregthens us to keep His commandments among other things.[/quote]

???In John 3, He declares: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he can not enter into the kingdom of God." (online source)

I believe that christians take this from the Jewish example (as christians were Jews ..then influx of gentiles) as the mikveh or water pool with a natural source in which one is submerged totally to transform body and soul to a higher religious state and in the case of converts, to a new existence. It was precisely prescribed by Jewish law and one is purified through submersion. I see a Jewish precedent to baptism.[/quote]

*I promise that I'll answer this sometime today or tonight if I have the chance or at least within the next few days.
*

*MERRY CHRISTMAS LADIES!!!!!!!!!!!! JESUS IS LORD AND GOD!!!!!!!!!! GOD BLESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 25, 2008)

FoxyScholar said:


> What I'm saying is through the heavenly language, there's ACCESS to an EVEN CLOSER, DEEPER relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.
> 
> I feel like I should say for caution (through the guidance of the Holy Spirit) and in response to your post here is to forgive me for overemphasizing(?) speaking in tongues above other workings of the Holy Spirit. I believe I'm in the Word of God when I emphasize and advocate speaking in tongues. I do not mean to say that if one does not speak in tongues that they are not saved, or that they are going to hell and all that. I do believe what the Bible says about speaking in tongues is that outright, tangible, visible EVIDENCE of the infilling of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4)
> 
> What I am saying is that speaking in tongues opens ACCESS to an EVEN CLOSER, DEEPER relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ...higher heights and deeper depths in the Lord...in worship...in relationship...in service...in ministry....


 

You know I try and sneak in a joke at every junction...it's my nature lol.  That's why I apologized ahead of time.  

But, according to the ancient and first church, the closest one can get is to receive Christ in the transubstantiated body and blood through holy communion.  That's direct closeness...His flesh and blood inside of a person.

I've learned so much in these threads over here...about the differences and it's highly important that people know.  I'm glad you all are engaging me in this discussion.  I think the most tragic thing is not "knowing" you neighbor - not judging, but actually knowing them and I have many neighbors of many different religions, cultures and belief systems.  Merry Christmas to you all.


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## chicacanella (Dec 25, 2008)

Great comparison for those who need more understandin of the holy spirit received at the time of salvation and the baptism of the holy spirit.

"The difference between receiving the Holy Spirit at salvation and being baptized in the Holy Spirit can be explained like this: You can be led to a pool of water and drink from it (receive the Holy Spirit at salvation), or you can jump fully into the water (be baptized with the Holy Spirit). It’s the same water (Holy Spirit), but you have a completely different experience."


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## PaperClip (Dec 25, 2008)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> You know I try and sneak in a joke at every junction...it's my nature lol. That's why I apologized ahead of time.
> 
> But, according to the ancient and first church, the closest one can get is to receive Christ in the transubstantiated body and blood through holy communion. That's direct closeness...His flesh and blood inside of a person.
> 
> I've learned so much in these threads over here...about the differences and it's highly important that people know. I'm glad you all are engaging me in this discussion. I think the most tragic thing is not "knowing" you neighbor - not judging, but actually knowing them and I have many neighbors of many different religions, cultures and belief systems. Merry Christmas to you all.


 
It's all good....

I don't dispute your point about the significance of holy communion. I LOVE the sacrament of holy communion. And it is what it is....

This does not take away from the significance of speaking in tongues, which can be done anytime, anyplace, anywhere.... holy communion doesn't work like that, per se.


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## firecracker (Dec 25, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> What I don't understand is why you are making a big deal out of folks receiving the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. If you don't want to receive it then don't ask for it, simple. Folks posted that they do want to receive it so they asked for it and about it.
> 
> And yes a sin is a sin, no one denies that but it's also true that when you go to set a snare for someone you fall into your own trap. You may want to think about who's really being a phony and also a hypocrite as a Christian before you post. You had to be sinning to be malicious and petty to try to catch me in a lie in the first place (which you and your friend have not) Focus on your own sins. Is it really that serious?
> 
> I never said that I NEVER sin. Read exactly what I said. What I said was that I have not PHYSICALLY sinned since I received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. I made sure that I said *physically* and not that I *never* sin at all because that's humanly impossible for anyone other than Jesus. I have sinned since being baptized with the Holy Spirit not PHYSICALLY but in word and thought *AND have repented*, another gift from God, the gift of forgiveness. Didn't know I was expected or needed to go back to tell that to folks I *no longer deal with or speak to* that I had to repent to God for something I said MONTHS ago (don't remember that scripture) but hey I don't USUALLY do disclaimers so enjoy this one. You need to build better traps chica.


 Who was making a big deal about this issue? Your unhappy and angry because I don't give a diddly about your ideology or interpretation of folks getting the holy ghost and sins.  You got issues with yourself.  Why would I be setting a trap for you?  Your paranoid sweetie.  I guess your guilty of something from your response.     I ain't neva been sitting next to you in church or otherwise for you to flip into the tongues.  Your name isn't Ms Covan or Keisha is it?  Your always up in some thread going on a tangent when you think someone ain't agreeing with you.    Get a grip and stop starting unnessary madness   You can't beat me upside the head with a bible but you can find a live audience to do that too hopefully.   Paranoia at its best!  Your important to somebody but it defininitely ain't me.  So entertain that trap bs elsewhere and with someone else.  Hippogrit and phony must hit a nerve witcha.


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## firecracker (Dec 25, 2008)

harbouring resentments :


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 25, 2008)

FoxyScholar said:


> It's all good....
> 
> I don't dispute your point about the significance of holy communion. I LOVE the sacrament of holy communion. And it is what it is....
> 
> This does not take away from the significance of speaking in tongues, which can be done anytime, anyplace, anywhere.... holy communion doesn't work like that, per se.


 
You receive and maintain the graces in a state outside of  mortal sin.  One is restored in  reconciliation.  Every reception of communion washes venial sins.  I'm not saying one shouldn't speak holy tongues nor seek it and there are catholics who do under the charismatics.  Every moment, every day is an opportunity to get closer to G-d.  I just fail to see the same level of significance in relation to the holiest of sacraments, communion, where one actually eats the living flesh and blood of Christ.  It becomes his actual flesh and blood when consummed.  Holy language, IMHO, cannot usurp that in the least.  It's life to the believer.  You know, according to the RCC and Easterns.  

I'm trying to figure out when the breakaway sects determined that the reception of the H-ly Spirit is different in baptism (of the soul, conversion to  Christ) and that there is a "baptism" of the H-ly Spirit beyond that received in conversion.  That's probably the point where I need documents!!!

How many times I need to edit this?  Keep forgetting....


I was going to say that the sacrifice in the Temple is the precedent and continuation of it in h-ly communion.


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## PaperClip (Dec 25, 2008)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> You receive and maintain the graces in a state outside of mortal sin. One is restored in reconciliation. Every reception of communion washes venial sins. I'm not saying one shouldn't speak holy tongues nor seek it and there are catholics who do under the charismatics. Every moment, every day is an opportunity to get closer to G-d. I just fail to see the same level of significance in relation to the holiest of sacraments, communion, where one actually eats the living flesh and blood of Christ. It becomes his actual flesh and blood when consummed. Holy language, IMHO, cannot usurp that in the least. It's life to the believer. You know, according to the RCC and Easterns.
> 
> I'm trying to figure out when the breakaway sects determined that the reception of the H-ly Spirit is different in baptism (of the soul, conversion to Christ) and that there is a "baptism" of the H-ly Spirit beyond that received in conversion. That's probably the point where I need documents!!!
> 
> ...


 
I respect your perspective, although I'm not sure of the origins and I don't understand the references re. RCC and Easterns and washing of venial sins. 

And I believe the heavenly language is up there with holy communion with regard to significance. Out of the mouths of two or more witnesses so let the word be established. More than one book in the bible talks about speaking in tongues (Acts and Romans) whereas the sacrament of holy communion is mentioned specifically in 1 Corinthians (only one book).


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 26, 2008)

FoxyScholar said:


> I respect your perspective, although I'm not sure of the origins and I don't understand the references re. RCC and Easterns and washing of venial sins.
> 
> And I believe the heavenly language is up there with holy communion with regard to significance. Out of the mouths of two or more witnesses so let the word be established. More than one book in the bible talks about speaking in tongues (Acts and Romans) whereas the sacrament of holy communion is mentioned specifically in 1 Corinthians (only one book).


 
It's not my perspective, it's the East/Western Church's perspective. Sins carry diff. weights.  Some break your relationship off with G-d whereas other do not.  Depends upon the severity along with complete knowledge and will in committance and seriousness of the offense.

I think that it would then have become a sacrament of the Church.  Do you have any references on books, articles written on it?  I'd like to do some reading up on it.  I did find this tho... haven't read yet but will soon:
http://www.ccr.org.uk/archive/gn0711/g09.htm

Communion is the basis of the mass...cannot have a mass without communion so it is the absolute focus of it, the purpose of it.  It's precedent was the sacrifice in the Temple where sins were remitted.  And I believe that Acts is speaking about that one-time birth of the Church whereby the promised descent of the H-ly Spirit came to pass.  

Where are the protestant documents?  Books?  Articles lending light on the issue?  I wouldn't know where to start...it's hard enough finding the catholic ones.  I just don't want to get something written by a "nutcase"  but a respected theologian lolol!


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## Ms.Honey (Dec 26, 2008)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> When you replied to FoxxyScholar:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 Hi. In that post Foxy is talking to the other poster about love towards the saints one towards the other being a sign to the world that we know God. Then she goes on to say that apart from that the Holy Ghost has a specific function and purpose for the believer and asked,"What is that sign, that evidence that is accessible to EVERY BELIEVER?" and I said Speaking in tongues is that sign. Love towards other Christians is a sign/evidence of being born again and speaking in tongues is a sign/evidence that you have received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. They're not the only signs/evidences but they are the main ones. Another one for the baptism is boldness to preach the gospel without fear of what others may say or do.

No one said that those who choose to receive it are better than those who choose not to. It is not required to receive salvation and to enter into heaven but gives you access to God through your heavenly language that no one, including the devil, can interpret but God and your spirit. It is a gift from God that is offered to every Christian to speak to God in private whenever we choose and to empower and embolden us to be witness unto Him. There is another tongues spoken of that we can not use whenever we choose that can be interpreted by others in their own languages.

I'm not sure whether or not the Duoay-Rheims translation of the bible is a word for word translation or a thought for thought translation. The KJV which is a word for word translation of the original texts says,

 Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 
 Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 
 Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 
 Jhn 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 
Jhn 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things? 

In verse 5 Jesus is saying that you must experience natural birth by a woman her water breaks and the child comes forth (born of water) and spiritual birth born of the HolyGhost (born again). He reiterates that in the next verse, verse 6, that which is born of flesh is flesh (natural birth, amnioitic fluid, born of water by the mom) and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (spiritual birth, water of life, born of the Holy Ghost). He's explaining to him that we need to be born of the Holy Spirit (born again) to go to heaven. He's not speaking of water baptism or the baptism of the Holy Ghost in those verses.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 26, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> Speaking in Tongues is that sign.


 






[/quote]Some folks tradition may say that but the bible does not say that you need to be baptized with water or receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to go to heaven or to receive salvation. What it does say is the Baptism stregthens us to keep His commandments among other things



???In John 3, He declares: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he can not enter into the kingdom of God." (online source)



I believe that christians take this from the Jewish example (as christians were Jews ..then influx of gentiles) as the mikveh or water pool with a natural source in which one is submerged totally to transform body and soul to a higher religious state and in the case of converts, to a new existence. It was precisely prescribed by Jewish law and one is purified through submersion. I see a Jewish precedent to baptism

Hi. In that post Foxy is talking to the other poster about love towards the saints one towards the other being a sign to the world that we know God. Then she goes on to say that apart from that the Holy Ghost has a specific function and purpose for the believer and asked,"What is that sign, that evidence that is accessible to EVERY BELIEVER?" and I said Speaking in tongues is that sign. Love towards other Christians is a sign/evidence of being born again and speaking in tongues is a sign/evidence that you have received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. They're not the only signs/evidences but they are the main ones. Another one for the baptism is boldness to preach the gospel without fear of what others may say or do.

No one said that those who choose to receive it are better than those who choose not to. It is not required to receive salvation and to enter into heaven but gives you access to God through your heavenly language that no one, including the devil, can interpret but God and your spirit. It is a gift from God that is offered to every Christian to speak to God in private whenever we choose and to empower and embolden us to be witness unto Him. There is another tongues spoken of that we can not use whenever we choose that can be interpreted by others in their own languages.

I'm not sure whether or not the Duoay-Rheims translation of the bible is a word for word translation or a thought for thought translation. The KJV which is a word for word translation of the original texts says,

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 
Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 
Jhn 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 
Jhn 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things? 

In verse 5 Jesus is saying that you must experience natural birth by a woman her water breaks and the child comes forth (born of water) and spiritual birth born of the HolyGhost (born again). He reiterates that in the next verse, verse 6, that which is born of flesh is flesh (natural birth, amnioitic fluid, born of water by the mom) and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (spiritual birth, water of life, born of the Holy Ghost). He's explaining to him that we need to be born of the Holy Spirit (born again) to go to heaven. He's not speaking of water baptism or the baptism of the Holy Ghost in those verses.[/quote]

Then why did He say you must be born both of water and of Spirit?  In other words, is this the new circumcision? sorry, I tried getting the previous posting in blue to keep quotes together...not working.


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## Ms.Honey (Dec 26, 2008)

> Some folks tradition may say that but the bible does not say that you need to be baptized with water or receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to go to heaven or to receive salvation. What it does say is the Baptism stregthens us to keep His commandments among other things
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
No, Jesus said that a man must be born again(reborn) Nicodemis asked Him how can a man be born again. He was telling Jesus that that was impossible because a man can not reenter into his mothers womb. Jesus was saying that a man has two have two births. Born once of his mother(born of water, amniotic fluid) and born again a second time of the Holy Spirit( born of the spirit, reborn, born again). That's we Christians are called born again believers. We've experienced the second birth necessary to restore us to God and to enter into heaven after we die among other things. Our natural bodies can not enter into heaven in an unrepentant non born again state because of sin. We have to be born again in order to receive our new bodies to experience the rapture. Our new bodies can enter in but our old bodies can not.


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## PaperClip (Dec 26, 2008)

Hi. In that post Foxy is talking to the other poster about love towards the saints one towards the other being a sign to the world that we know God. Then she goes on to say that apart from that the Holy Ghost has a specific function and purpose for the believer and asked,"What is that sign, that evidence that is accessible to EVERY BELIEVER?" and I said Speaking in tongues is that sign. *Love towards other Christians is a sign/evidence of being born again* and speaking in tongues is a sign/evidence that you have received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. They're not the only signs/evidences but they are the main ones. Another one for the baptism is boldness to preach the gospel without fear of what others may say or do.

No one said that those who choose to receive it are better than those who choose not to. *It is not required* to receive salvation and to enter into heaven but gives you access to God through your heavenly language that no one, including the devil, can interpret but God and your spirit. It is a gift from God that is *offered* to every Christian to speak to God *in private* whenever we choose and to empower and embolden us to be witness unto Him. There is another tongues spoken of that we can not use whenever we choose that can be interpreted by others in their own languages.[/quote]

For clarity, addressing the points in bold.

Ultimately, it appears to me that this line of points seek to DIMINISH the existence, availability, and accessibility and yes, I'll even say a NECESSITY of the speaking in tongues as the Holy Spirit gives utterance and I say sincerely and transparently that it is beginning to be a MAJOR CONCERN TO ME as this possible diminishment may mislead others from seeking their heavenly language. 
The Bible commands believers to love one another. Amen. No doubt about that. Is this a sign of a born-again believer? Not as the Bible says in COMPARISON to resident manifestation of the Holy Spirit as EVIDENCED BY SPEAKING IN OTHER TONGUES.

While you say speaking in tongues is not required to get into heaven, meaning that speaking in tongues may not be a club stamp to get in the park, I EMPHATICALLY SAY speaking in tongues is a NECESSARY ASPECT of this salvation walk here on Planet Earth for several reasons outlined in scripture, e.g., edify the believer, pray so that the devil is unable to understand your prayers, and to pray the divine will of God into existence. I say the Holy Spirit is more than just OFFERED to the born-again believer. It is NECESSARY, or else why would the Lord Jesus Christ direct the 120 to WAIT FOR/EXPECT the HOLY SPIRIT TO COME (Acts 2)? Why? Because the Lord divinely designed the Holy Spirit with specific purposes, including the heavenly language.

Finally, the Holy Spirit and the heavenly language should not only be done in private as to SURPRESS the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues is not some parlor trick to entertain folk. The heavenly language has a specific purpose at a specific time that NO ONE SHOULD BE ASHAMED ABOUT.


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## Ms.Honey (Dec 26, 2008)

FoxyScholar said:


> Hi. In that post Foxy is talking to the other poster about love towards the saints one towards the other being a sign to the world that we know God. Then she goes on to say that apart from that the Holy Ghost has a specific function and purpose for the believer and asked,"What is that sign, that evidence that is accessible to EVERY BELIEVER?" and I said Speaking in tongues is that sign. *Love towards other Christians is a sign/evidence of being born again* and speaking in tongues is a sign/evidence that you have received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. They're not the only signs/evidences but they are the main ones. Another one for the baptism is boldness to preach the gospel without fear of what others may say or do.
> 
> No one said that those who choose to receive it are better than those who choose not to. *It is not required* to receive salvation and to enter into heaven but gives you access to God through your heavenly language that no one, including the devil, can interpret but God and your spirit. It is a gift from God that is *offered* to every Christian to speak to God *in private* whenever we choose and to empower and embolden us to be witness unto Him. There is another tongues spoken of that we can not use whenever we choose that can be interpreted by others in their own languages.
> 
> ...


 
I agree but the point I was trying to make was that it is not a requirement to receive salvation and was different than water baptism. I believe it is necessary even crucial to receive it.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 26, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> No, Jesus said that a man must be born again(reborn) Nicodemis asked Him how can a man be born again. He was telling Jesus that that was impossible because a man can not reenter into his mothers womb. Jesus was saying that a man has two have two births. Born once of his mother(born of water, amniotic fluid) and born again a second time of the Holy Spirit( born of the spirit, reborn, born again). That's we Christians are called born again believers. We've experienced the second birth necessary to restore us to God and to enter into heaven after we die among other things. Our natural bodies can not enter into heaven in an unrepentant non born again state because of sin. We have to be born again in order to receive our new bodies to experience the rapture. Our new bodies can enter in but our old bodies can not.


 
No, I don't think so otherwise, why would he have said "Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. ""  In every baptism, water is used.  Why would he stress this?  I don't think that's not answering my question somehow (I'm not trying to force it, though).  Of  course, he's using "birth" metaphorically.  Conversion though??   Of course that man was born through his mother.  It wouldn't apply to a non-entity or a person non-born.  He's standing there talking to the guy.  However, metaphorically, rebirth ...I don't see it relating literally to amnionic fluid other than the comparison to something human's are aware of.  He's got to be pointing to something else.   Water symbolism is important to Judaism, mayyim hayyim or "living waters."  ?????  We already discussed the mikveh.  Humanly speaking, yes, we are nurtured in that water bath gestationally. 

Basically, I think this is one of those beliefs in catholicism that differs from the protestant belief regarding conversion  and communion, that it's not taken literally among protestants.  Thanks for your explanation.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 26, 2008)

FoxyScholar said:


> Hi. In that post Foxy is talking to the other poster about love towards the saints one towards the other being a sign to the world that we know God. Then she goes on to say that apart from that the Holy Ghost has a specific function and purpose for the believer and asked,"What is that sign, that evidence that is accessible to EVERY BELIEVER?" and I said Speaking in tongues is that sign. *Love towards other Christians is a sign/evidence of being born again* and speaking in tongues is a sign/evidence that you have received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. They're not the only signs/evidences but they are the main ones. Another one for the baptism is boldness to preach the gospel without fear of what others may say or do.
> 
> No one said that those who choose to receive it are better than those who choose not to. *It is not required* to receive salvation and to enter into heaven but gives you access to God through your heavenly language that no one, including the devil, can interpret but God and your spirit. It is a gift from God that is *offered* to every Christian to speak to God *in private* whenever we choose and to empower and embolden us to be witness unto Him. There is another tongues spoken of that we can not use whenever we choose that can be interpreted by others in their own languages.


 
For clarity, addressing the points in bold.

Ultimately, it appears to me that this line of points seek to DIMINISH the existence, availability, and accessibility and yes, I'll even say a NECESSITY of the speaking in tongues as the Holy Spirit gives utterance and I say sincerely and transparently that it is beginning to be a MAJOR CONCERN TO ME as this possible diminishment may mislead others from seeking their heavenly language. 
The Bible commands believers to love one another. Amen. No doubt about that. Is this a sign of a born-again believer? Not as the Bible says in COMPARISON to resident manifestation of the Holy Spirit as EVIDENCED BY SPEAKING IN OTHER TONGUES.

While you say speaking in tongues is not required to get into heaven, meaning that speaking in tongues may not be a club stamp to get in the park, I EMPHATICALLY SAY speaking in tongues is a NECESSARY ASPECT of this salvation walk here on Planet Earth for several reasons outlined in scripture, e.g., edify the believer, pray so that the devil is unable to understand your prayers, and to pray the divine will of God into existence. I say the Holy Spirit is more than just OFFERED to the born-again believer. It is NECESSARY, or else why would the Lord Jesus Christ direct the 120 to WAIT FOR/EXPECT the HOLY SPIRIT TO COME (Acts 2)? Why? Because the Lord divinely designed the Holy Spirit with specific purposes, including the heavenly language.

Finally, the Holy Spirit and the heavenly language should not only be done in private as to SURPRESS the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues is not some parlor trick to entertain folk. The heavenly language has a specific purpose at a specific time that NO ONE SHOULD BE ASHAMED ABOUT.[/quote]

Can I ask you which sect you belong to?  So, according to yours, you *have * to speak in tongues to "prove" you're a christian?  Wasn't their waiting for the H-ly Spirit to come for the BIRTH of the Church and the manifestation was the tongues and flames?  I don't believe Paul advocated it for privacy.  How could Jesus design the H-ly spirit?  He created Him or co-exists with Him?

How can a man pray the divine will of G-d into existence?  G-d spoke and the world was created...not man.  It would have to be His act, not man's.  And why is there so much emphasis on the devil and trying to "confound" him in personal prayers?  That would suggest to me that this is a theology that doesn't believe in the omnipotence and omniscience of G-d.  But I'm not trying to say that actually...asking. Can you understand my point of view?  

This is getting deep...I might be drowning soon  lol.  So many asides to h-ly tongues coming up.


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## Ms.Honey (Dec 26, 2008)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> No, I don't think so otherwise, why would he have said "Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. "" In every baptism, water is used. Why would he stress this? I don't think that's not answering my question somehow (I'm not trying to force it, though). Of course, he's using "birth" metaphorically. Conversion though?? Of course that man was born through his mother. It wouldn't apply to a non-entity or a person non-born. He's standing there talking to the guy. However, metaphorically, rebirth ...I don't see it relating literally to amnionic fluid other than the comparison to something human's are aware of. He's got to be pointing to something else. Water symbolism is important to Judaism, mayyim hayyim or "living waters." ????? We already discussed the mikveh. Humanly speaking, yes, we are nurtured in that water bath gestationally.
> 
> Basically, I think this is one of those beliefs in catholicism that differs from the protestant belief regarding conversion and communion, that it's not taken literally among protestants. Thanks for your explanation.


 
Nicodemus thought Jesus was saying that a man had to be literally born again through childbirth. Jesus was expalining that that was a natural occurence that everyone has to go through to be born but that birth that He was talking about was a spiritual rebirth not a natural birth. 

He was not talking about water baptism. You may want to read the whole conversation they had. Water baptism is not considered of the fleshy earthy things but a holy rite, of God (spiritual) but childbirth is of this world and not spiritual but of the flesh. That's why He said that which comes from the flesh is flesh and that which comes from the Holy Spirit is spirit.


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## PaperClip (Dec 26, 2008)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> For clarity, addressing the points in bold.
> 
> Ultimately, it appears to me that this line of points seek to DIMINISH the existence, availability, and accessibility and yes, I'll even say a NECESSITY of the speaking in tongues as the Holy Spirit gives utterance and I say sincerely and transparently that it is beginning to be a MAJOR CONCERN TO ME as this possible diminishment may mislead others from seeking their heavenly language.
> The Bible commands believers to love one another. Amen. No doubt about that. Is this a sign of a born-again believer? Not as the Bible says in COMPARISON to resident manifestation of the Holy Spirit as EVIDENCED BY SPEAKING IN OTHER TONGUES.
> ...


 
Can I ask you which sect you belong to? So, according to yours, you *have * to speak in tongues to "prove" you're a christian? Wasn't their waiting for the H-ly Spirit to come for the BIRTH of the Church and the manifestation was the tongues and flames? I don't believe Paul advocated it for privacy. How could Jesus design the H-ly spirit? He created Him or co-exists with Him?

I'm not familiar with the term "sect" to describe my relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. But in the restrictive confinement of such banal earthly 
categories, I grew up in the Church of God in Christ denomination.

I never used the term "prove" with regard to speaking in tongues as a sign of CHRISTIANITY, but clearly, as the Bible says in Acts 1-2: speaking in tongues is EVIDENCE of the INFILLING/BAPTISM of the HOLY SPIRIT within the believer.

I used the word "design" in reference to the plan of the Lord God Almighty (wrapped up in flesh as the Lord Jesus Christ) that the Holy Spirit would be the presence of the Lord (without flesh) once the Lord Jesus Christ ascended into heaven. 


How can a man pray the divine will of G-d into existence? G-d spoke and the world was created...not man. It would have to be His act, not man's. Through the Holy Spirit. We (humans) each have a divine will of God for our lives. And we have free will to yield to that divine will or not.  And why is there so much emphasis on the devil and trying to "confound" him in personal prayers? So much emphasis is subjective. Let's not diminish the existence of the enemy and his greatest skill of DECEPTION. I mean, the devil even tempted the Lord Jesus Christ so is that more or less emphasis? The devil tempted the Lord Jesus Christ so that means the devil is no respecter of persons, if you will, in tempting man. So yes, it matters to be well aware of the enemy's devices (2 Corinthians 2:11):

"Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices." (KJV)

That would suggest to me that this is a theology that doesn't believe in the omnipotence and omniscience of G-d. But I'm not trying to say that actually...asking. Can you understand my point of view? 

This is getting deep...I might be drowning soon lol. So many asides to h-ly tongues coming up.[/quote]

What sect informs your faith/spirituality/religion?


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 26, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> Nicodemus thought Jesus was saying that a man had to be literally born again through childbirth. Jesus was expalining that that was a natural occurence that everyone has to go through to be born but that birth that He was talking about was a spiritual rebirth not a natural birth.
> 
> He was not talking about water baptism. You may want to read the whole conversation they had. Water baptism is not considered of the fleshy earthy things but a holy rite, of God (spiritual) but childbirth is of this world and not spiritual but of the flesh. That's why He said that which comes from the flesh is flesh and that which comes from the Holy Spirit is spirit.


 

Exactly.  He wouldn't have said you MUST be born of water AND spirit if one facet of that was natural birth.  He might have said you must be born of the spirit or renewed of spirit.  It's obvious the man was born.  What happens to babies that are conceived but never born?  Do they enter heaven?  This is why I think it refers to circumcision which has now been transformed through water baptism as the conversion.  For anyone who made it through birth, whether stillborn or alive, being born *OF* water _*AND*_ spirit is something different that he's obviously indicating.  That's why I say the precedent was circumcision, mikveh, temple sacrifices.  Jesus was Jewish and He didn't change anything in the law given at Sinai, nothing.  He was a Jew who obeyed everything that He was supposed to.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 26, 2008)

FoxyScholar said:


> Can I ask you which sect you belong to? So, according to yours, you *have * to speak in tongues to "prove" you're a christian? Wasn't their waiting for the H-ly Spirit to come for the BIRTH of the Church and the manifestation was the tongues and flames? I don't believe Paul advocated it for privacy. How could Jesus design the H-ly spirit? He created Him or co-exists with Him?
> 
> I'm not familiar with the term "sect" to describe my relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. But in the restrictive confinement of such banal earthly
> categories, I grew up in the Church of God in Christ denomination.
> ...


 
What sect informs your faith/spirituality/religion?[/quote]

I'm so sorry....I was meaning that for Ms. Honey about the purpose of tongues and salvation.  I believe she said that it's necessary.  My basis is the Torah.  I attend both synagogue and mass.  Hideous to some...I don't care.  It's what we do lol.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 26, 2008)

Wait a minute, Ms. Honey said this, right?  
[/quote]
While you say speaking in tongues is not required to get into heaven, meaning that speaking in tongues may not be a club stamp to get in the park, I EMPHATICALLY SAY speaking in tongues is a NECESSARY ASPECT of this salvation walk here on Planet Earth for several reasons outlined in scripture, e.g., edify the believer, pray so that the devil is unable to understand your prayers, and to pray the divine will of God into existence. I say the Holy Spirit is more than just OFFERED to the born-again believer. It is NECESSARY, or else why would the Lord Jesus Christ direct the 120 to WAIT FOR/EXPECT the HOLY SPIRIT TO COME (Acts 2)? Why? Because the Lord divinely designed the Holy Spirit with specific purposes, including the heavenly language[/quote]


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## PaperClip (Dec 26, 2008)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Wait a minute, Ms. Honey said this, right?


While you say speaking in tongues is not required to get into heaven, meaning that speaking in tongues may not be a club stamp to get in the park, I EMPHATICALLY SAY speaking in tongues is a NECESSARY ASPECT of this salvation walk here on Planet Earth for several reasons outlined in scripture, e.g., edify the believer, pray so that the devil is unable to understand your prayers, and to pray the divine will of God into existence. I say the Holy Spirit is more than just OFFERED to the born-again believer. It is NECESSARY, or else why would the Lord Jesus Christ direct the 120 to WAIT FOR/EXPECT the HOLY SPIRIT TO COME (Acts 2)? Why? Because the Lord divinely designed the Holy Spirit with specific purposes, including the heavenly language[/quote][/quote]

I said this.


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## Ms.Honey (Dec 26, 2008)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Exactly. He wouldn't have said you MUST be born of water AND spirit if one facet of that was natural birth. He might have said you must be born of the spirit or renewed of spirit. It's obvious the man was born. What happens to babies that are conceived but never born? Do they enter heaven? This is why I think it refers to circumcision which has now been transformed through water baptism as the conversion. For anyone who made it through birth, whether stillborn or alive, being born *OF* water _*AND*_ spirit is something different that he's obviously indicating. That's why I say the precedent was circumcision, mikveh, temple sacrifices. Jesus was Jewish and He didn't change anything in the law given at Sinai, nothing. He was a Jew who obeyed everything that He was supposed to.


 
Did you read their whole conversation? They are talking about childbirth and spiritual rebirth. Do you have a Strong's Concordance? It'll give you the words in the original greek and the translation into English and their definitions. You also have to read all of the other scriptures about the differences between childbirth, water baptism and the baptism of the Holy Ghost.


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## Ms.Honey (Dec 26, 2008)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> What sect informs your faith/spirituality/religion?
> 
> I'm so sorry....I was meaning that for Ms. Honey about the purpose of tongues and salvation. I believe she said that it's necessary. My basis is the Torah. I attend both synagogue and mass. Hideous to some...I don't care. It's what we do lol.


 
I'm a Protestant Christian. 

Why do you attend both if both believe the other is in disobedience to the Word. They are in direct conflict with one another. That's confusion. 

I'm not really sure of what you want. Do you want us to explain the baptism of the Holy Ghost or do you want to give us the Catholic interpretation of John 3 and water baptism unto salvation?


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 26, 2008)

FoxyScholar said:


> While you say speaking in tongues is not required to get into heaven, meaning that speaking in tongues may not be a club stamp to get in the park, I EMPHATICALLY SAY speaking in tongues is a NECESSARY ASPECT of this salvation walk here on Planet Earth for several reasons outlined in scripture, e.g., edify the believer, pray so that the devil is unable to understand your prayers, and to pray the divine will of God into existence. I say the Holy Spirit is more than just OFFERED to the born-again believer. It is NECESSARY, or else why would the Lord Jesus Christ direct the 120 to WAIT FOR/EXPECT the HOLY SPIRIT TO COME (Acts 2)? Why? Because the Lord divinely designed the Holy Spirit with specific purposes, including the heavenly language


[/quote]

I said this.[/quote]
 At some point, these quotes are getting jumbled about.  So, she included your post in her quote.  Okay, I thought you didn't feel this way in response to one of my questions.  You say now that it _*is*_ a necessary aspect of salvation but not an entry requirement (lol sounds like we're talking about Cedar Point Amus. Park!)?  So, how is it necessary?  To the salvation itself as in it is a gift included within the gift of salvation?  Or that it is a necessary requirement of the believer?  Why should I care that the devil can hear my prayers?  I heard a priest once say that the time of greatest demonic activity is during mass because the aim is to distract people from worshipping etc.  But G-d is present and  is greater than evil, hands down.   

So, it's necessarily included in the gift or it's necessary for the believer to demonstrate and tap into somehow for his salvation?  I'm still not getting it.  How is it necessary if not required?


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## ladyofvirtue (Dec 26, 2008)

^^^Who is the man pictured above?  What is the name of that building?  Are you Jewish?

Thanks for answering my questions.


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## PaperClip (Dec 26, 2008)

I said this.[/quote]
At some point, these quotes are getting jumbled about. So, she included your post in her quote. Okay, I thought you didn't feel this way in response to one of my questions. You say now that it _*is*_ a necessary aspect of salvation but not an entry requirement (lol sounds like we're talking about Cedar Point Amus. Park!)? So, how is it necessary? To the salvation itself as in it is a gift included within the gift of salvation? Or that it is a necessary requirement of the believer? Why should I care that the devil can hear my prayers? I heard a priest once say that the time of greatest demonic activity is during mass because the aim is to distract people from worshipping etc. But G-d is present and is greater than evil, hands down. 

So, it's necessarily included in the gift or it's necessary for the believer to demonstrate and tap into somehow for his salvation? I'm still not getting it. How is it necessary if not required?[/quote]

*FOXYSCHOLAR'S RESPONSE BEGINS HERE IN RED*

*I sort of feel like I'm repeating myself.

As has been cited through SEVERAL NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES, the Holy Spirit has a specific role, function, and purpose for the believer. Among these specifics are:

--to edify the believer

--pray so that the devil is unable to understand your prayers

--and to pray the divine will of God into existence

I assert that without the Holy Spirit in general and speaking in tongues in particular, the believer is functioning in a weaker state and has fewer resources by which to overcome the wiles of the devil. I repeat, why would the Lord Jesus Christ call for the 120 to wait in the upper room (Acts 2) for the Holy Spirit to come? Because the Holy Spirit is the presence of the Lord (outside of the flesh) and that the Holy Spirit has specific functions to support the believer in navigating this world. And further in Acts 2, it is mentioned that the evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues as the Holy Spirit gives utterance.**

Why should you care that the devil hears your prayers? I'm not saying you should care about that more than one's personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. But a couple of things to note: believers in the Lord Jesus Christ are in this world, not of this world. We are in a war so why allow the opposition to hear your war strategies? 2 Corinthians 10:4: "For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;"

The Lord Jesus Christ has done all that He's going to do on the CROSS. We as believers have to do our part. The Lord Jesus Christ is onmipresent and has all power in His hand and yet if we refuse to utilize the equipment He's made accessible to us, then He's not going to force us*.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 26, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> I'm a Protestant Christian.
> 
> Why do you attend both if both believe the other is in disobedience to the Word. They are in direct conflict with one another. That's confusion.
> 
> I'm not really sure of what you want. Do you want us to explain the baptism of the Holy Ghost or do you want to give us the Catholic interpretation of John 3 and water baptism unto salvation?


 



Ms.Honey said:


> I'm a Protestant Christian.
> 
> Why do you attend both if both believe the other is in disobedience to the Word. They are in direct conflict with one another. That's confusion.
> 
> I'm not really sure of what you want. Do you want us to explain the baptism of the Holy Ghost or do you want to give us the Catholic interpretation of John 3 and water baptism unto salvation?


 
We're a mixed family.  And to tell the truth, catholics do not teach that Jews are in disobedience.  Some Jews think christians are pagans with 3 G-ds.  Secular Jews don't care.  We here all know that's not true about christians being pagan.  No.  Even Shmuley Boteach, leading rabbi, has agreed that christians are monotheists.  

Catholics don't teach that non-catholics are going to hell in the way many protestants do.  The covenant still remains with the Jews and has not been usurped by christian gentiles.  Israel is still Israel.  Jews haven't been thrown out and replaced.  Gentiles, according to catholicism, have been grated onto the vine.  That vine is Jewish, it came first. 

 I do realize there are varying opinions about the Messiah.  Messianic Judaism attempts to address this issue.  There are also associations of Jews who have become catholic and  address these issues.   Not confusion...but through study, through seeking, one arrives at truths.  
 In other words, I don't think G-d expects anyone to throw out their brains to be religious.  Question, argue, question, argue, and on and on...I mean with G-d.  This is the Jew's existence, believe me.  

I've been asking you to explain the baptism of the H-ly Ghost according to your traditions.   So, I guess, in light of the catholic interpretation, how exactly the protestant sect differs according to exegesis.  Just quoting scripture doesn't seem enough because both are quoting scripture.  It's in the widely held, studied and agreed upon interpretation as one body or through a magisterium that I'm seeking to witness.  I dunno, was it Calvinism?  Luther?  What?  

You and FoxxyScholar are seeing these from diff. points of view yet you both are protestant but she's Church of G-d.  Is yours non-denominational?  I don't mean to intrude too much but that's why I asked which sect of protestantism.  Even in 2 Thessalonians 2:15, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us."  In coming from Jewish tradition (origin of the Church) where there was not only scripture, there was the oral law handed down from G-d to Moses and from Moses to Aaron and all in the priesthood on down up until even these generations, this has been that tradition spoken of.  

So, I'm trying to figure out *how* tongues are necessary for salvation.  It seems to be open up to diff. interpretations in a variety of protestant sects as the wind blows.  That's not an insult, that's just an observation.  Maybe I'm approaching this incorrectly?  

Which aspect of salvation is it necessary?  And I'm not even sure I comprehend salvation from your standpoint either.  When people say "saved," what do they mean?  From shame, sin, suffering and death?  IMHO, that will be the final after one is in heaven.  I'm not saved living on this earth.  Conversion is one thing, perseverance until the end is another.

So, see, it's like this.  2000 years of Church history and tradition and tenets set ages ago and still followed to this very day as opposed to changing interpretations of tenets of the faith...preceded by 3 thousand years of Jewish tradition which catholics still draw from, in tact...I'm more inclined to look there for answers to questions.  Not everyone is the same.  Some will say there is confusion or that you're trying to sit on two chairs with one butt.  But if you want to know, you go about seeking it.  I don't stay cloistered at all and I refuse friends and family who try to tell me otherwise.  I'm obviously not made of the same mold hehehe.  

If this is disjointed...please excuse...I've got a kid in my ear trying to boost me from the computer and digging my ear with annoyances...oh boy!


----------



## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 26, 2008)

FoxyScholar said:


> *FOXYSCHOLAR'S RESPONSE BEGINS HERE IN RED*
> 
> *I sort of feel like I'm repeating myself.*
> 
> ...


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## Ms.Honey (Dec 26, 2008)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> We're a mixed family. And to tell the truth, catholics do not teach that Jews are in disobedience. Some Jews think christians are pagans with 3 G-ds. Secular Jews don't care. We here all know that's not true about christians being pagan. No. Even Shmuley Boteach, leading rabbi, has agreed that christians are monotheists.
> 
> Catholics don't teach that non-catholics are going to hell in the way many protestants do. The covenant still remains with the Jews and has not been usurped by christian gentiles. Israel is still Israel. Jews haven't been thrown out and replaced. Gentiles, according to catholicism, have been grated onto the vine. That vine is Jewish, it came first.
> 
> ...


 
I'm not part of a sect other than Christianity being an extension of Judaism. I'm non denominational. 

I don't think Foxy is saying you have to speak in tongues to go to heaven but that it's important to our Christian walk. No one is saying speaking in tongues is necessary to receive salvation. I don't know why you keep saying that. As far as I can see we are saying the same thing(Foxy and I).

Catholics believe that Jesus is the Messiah and God but the Jews (non Messianic) do not believe that He is either. You are practicing both. That is what is confusion.

Are you trying to teach us what Jews and Catholics believe about stuff or do you want to know why it's important to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost? Just pray to God for understanding or disagree with what we believe. I don't think we can explain it any other way than we have been.


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## Ms.Honey (Dec 26, 2008)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> FoxyScholar said:
> 
> 
> > *FOXYSCHOLAR'S RESPONSE BEGINS HERE IN RED*
> ...


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## PaperClip (Dec 26, 2008)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> You and FoxxyScholar are seeing these from diff. points of view yet you both are protestant but she's Church of G-d. Is yours non-denominational? I don't mean to intrude too much but that's why I asked which sect of protestantism. Even in 2 Thessalonians 2:15, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us." In coming from Jewish tradition (origin of the Church) where there was not only scripture, there was the oral law handed down from G-d to Moses and from Moses to Aaron and all in the priesthood on down up until even these generations, this has been that tradition spoken of.
> 
> So, I'm trying to figure out *how* tongues are necessary for salvation. It seems to be open up to diff. interpretations in a variety of protestant sects as the wind blows. That's not an insult, that's just an observation. Maybe I'm approaching this incorrectly?
> 
> ...


 


Ms.Honey said:


> I'm not part of a sect other than Christianity being an extension of Judaism. I'm non denominational.
> 
> I don't think Foxy is saying you have to speak in tongues to go to heaven but that it's important to our Christian walk. No one is saying speaking in tongues is necessary to receive salvation. I don't know why you keep saying that. As far as I can see we are saying the same thing(Foxy and I).
> 
> ...


 
Ms. Honey is saying things more succintly than I am...and yes, Ms. Honey and I are on the same wavelength. Speaking in tongues is importanty, yes, even CRUCIAL to this earthly Christian walk.

I said I grew up in a denomination (Church of God in Christ, which is different from the Church of God). I presently attend a non-denominational church as well.

I wanted to sidestep this but WOW on attending all those different kinds of services. That has to be confusing/complex/contradictory.


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## PaperClip (Dec 26, 2008)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> FoxyScholar said:
> 
> 
> > *FOXYSCHOLAR'S RESPONSE BEGINS HERE IN RED*
> ...


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## chicacanella (Dec 26, 2008)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> We're a mixed family. And to tell the truth, catholics do not teach that Jews are in disobedience. Some Jews think christians are pagans with 3 G-ds. Secular Jews don't care. We here all know that's not true about christians being pagan. No. Even Shmuley Boteach, leading rabbi, has agreed that christians are monotheists.
> 
> Catholics don't teach that non-catholics are going to hell in the way many protestants do. The covenant still remains with the Jews and has not been usurped by christian gentiles. Israel is still Israel. Jews haven't been thrown out and replaced. Gentiles, according to catholicism, have been grated onto the vine. That vine is Jewish, it came first.
> 
> ...


 

I've been in this whole thread and I have not observed Foxy nor Ms. Honey say that tongues are necessary for salvation.  Where are you getting this from?  And to quote, all you need to do is click on the quote button. For multiquoting, click on the plus sign button and after you have chosen everyone's post you want to respond to, then click post reply.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 27, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> I'm non denominational....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Non-denominational, that would be your "sect."  It was stated various times that speaking in tongues is necessary.  That would imply that it's necessary to salvation.  I've asked various times for that to be explained.  Now you are saying it is not necessary...check the posts...was stated various times that it is necessary.  

Am I trying to teach you Judaism and catholicism?  G-d forbid.  Emphatic NO.  I am trying to figure out what YOU believe in relation to what others believe but I guess the problem is that you provide no documentation.  I guess I'm used to another tradition.  Without sources, interpretation is subjective and becomes yours and mine.  I wished to know WHY you believe what you believe based upon the largely held sets of beliefs or tenets to the faith.  You can'[t even agree with FoxxyScholar on this issue and I'm just trying to get to the "bottom" of it and why there are differences in the importance of it.  This is one reason I asked which denomination you are.

Am I confused?  No, not at all.  I was there at Sinai.  I wouldn't try and tell someone they were confused unless you can see who and what they are, in their soul.  With all due respect, you're neither a Jew nor a Catholic and I don't think you should actually go there to try and tell me "something" about myself based upon your lack of knowledge about it.  There are many multi-faith/multi-cultural families.  You probably didn't mean it that way.  Our stance is non-judgemental by default.

Like mentioned before, I was asking a general question based upon the largest "sect" of christianity, that being the orthodox and catholic or east and western universal churches about what YOU all mean by the baptism of the H-ly Spirit.  I asked for documents.  If you come across some, ex., if your pastor can recommend some readings, please pass them along to me.  I'd be happy to read them.  

I don't judge folks...at least, I don't try to judge them and if and when I find myself doing it, I repent lol.  No, I'm not trying to proselytize anybody.  In fact, I hate proselytization, in either direction it flies after me...and it has.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 27, 2008)

chicacanella said:


> I've been in this whole thread and I have not observed Foxy nor Ms. Honey say that tongues are necessary for salvation. Where are you getting this from? And to quote, all you need to do is click on the quote button. For multiquoting, click on the plus sign button and after you have chosen everyone's post you want to respond to, then click post reply.


 

What's happening is that posts are not being quoted correctly nor attributed to the OP of it.  They are getting mixed up without proper labeling.  But this is from post number #74 and my question was always HOW it is necessary to salvation.  In other words, is it one of the goodies in the whole gift of salvation or is it necessary to have the salvation in the first place.  I'm not getting answered for that when the following is stated.....Post num. #74  Content is in paragraph 4 in mauve:


Quote:
Originally Posted by *FoxyScholar* 

 
_Hi. In that post Foxy is talking to the other poster about love towards the saints one towards the other being a sign to the world that we know God. Then she goes on to say that apart from that the Holy Ghost has a specific function and purpose for the believer and asked,"What is that sign, that evidence that is accessible to EVERY BELIEVER?" and I said Speaking in tongues is that sign. *Love towards other Christians is a sign/evidence of being born again* and speaking in tongues is a sign/evidence that you have received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. They're not the only signs/evidences but they are the main ones. Another one for the baptism is boldness to preach the gospel without fear of what others may say or do.

No one said that those who choose to receive it are better than those who choose not to. *It is not required* to receive salvation and to enter into heaven but gives you access to God through your heavenly language that no one, including the devil, can interpret but God and your spirit. It is a gift from God that is *offered* to every Christian to speak to God *in private* whenever we choose and to empower and embolden us to be witness unto Him. There is another tongues spoken of that we can not use whenever we choose that can be interpreted by others in their own languages.

For clarity, addressing the points in bold.

Ultimately, it appears to me that this line of points seek to DIMINISH the existence, availability, and accessibility and yes, I'll even say a NECESSITY of the speaking in tongues as the Holy Spirit gives utterance and I say sincerely and transparently that it is beginning to be a MAJOR CONCERN TO ME as this possible diminishment may mislead others from seeking their heavenly language. 
The Bible commands believers to love one another. Amen. No doubt about that. Is this a sign of a born-again believer? Not as the Bible says in COMPARISON to resident manifestation of the Holy Spirit as EVIDENCED BY SPEAKING IN OTHER TONGUES.

While you say speaking in tongues is not required to get into heaven, meaning that speaking in tongues may not be a club stamp to get in the park, I EMPHATICALLY SAY speaking in tongues is a NECESSARY ASPECT of this salvation walk here on Planet Earth for several reasons outlined in scripture, e.g., edify the believer, pray so that the devil is unable to understand your prayers, and to pray the divine will of God into existence. I say the Holy Spirit is more than just OFFERED to the born-again believer. It is NECESSARY, or else why would the Lord Jesus Christ direct the 120 to WAIT FOR/EXPECT the HOLY SPIRIT TO COME (Acts 2)? Why? Because the Lord divinely designed the Holy Spirit with specific purposes, including the heavenly language.

Finally, the Holy Spirit and the heavenly language should not only be done in private as to SURPRESS the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues is not some parlor trick to entertain folk. The heavenly language has a specific purpose at a specific time that NO ONE SHOULD BE ASHAMED ABOUT._

I agree but the point I was trying to make was that it is not a requirement to receive salvation and was different than water baptism. I believe it is necessary even crucial to receive it. 
__________________
*Hey God, if you exist, prove it to ME. Hey God, there are so many different religions, which way do You want ME to worship You? Hey God, is your name Jesus? I don't believe that. If it is, then Jesus you need to prove it to ME.So simple.**Covers just about everything including our tails if He is really real, right? If He's real as some claim, dare Him to step up. CONVERTED ATHEISTS MAKE THE BEST CHRISTIANS!*


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 27, 2008)

So, regarding post #96 and I believe it was MsHoney who said that "_*I agree but the point I was trying to make was that it is not a requirement to receive salvation and was different than water baptism. I believe it is necessary even crucial to receive it. "*_   ...

I ask how is it crucial?  If someone - one of my friends - asked me about the RCC/Orthodox or protestant churches and their belief on salvation, what is it, how to get it, why is it important...which has happened, what am I supposed to tell them?  I'm hearing conflicting information from diff. groups that claim christianity on what salvation is.  If somebody tells me that it's crucial to speak tongues, that it is a necessary component of salvation and they don't explain exactly how but that it's not a requirement for heaven but it's crucial, necessary...conflict!  You guys are looking at me...and I'm looking at y'all!!!!1  So, which is it?

And what I suspect is that it's based upon either personal or congregational interpretation and not according to the large singular (well, we realize there are sects of it) group of people who call themselves *christians*.  It seem to be open up to individual interpretation.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 27, 2008)

FoxyScholar said:


> GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:
> 
> 
> > Your quoting is getting kind of confusing.
> ...


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## Ms.Honey (Dec 27, 2008)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Non-denominational, that would be your "sect." It was stated various times that speaking in tongues is necessary. *That would imply that it's necessary to salvation.* I've asked various times for that to be explained. Now you are saying it is not necessary...check the posts...was stated various times that it is necessary.
> 
> Am I trying to teach you Judaism and catholicism? G-d forbid. Emphatic NO. I am trying to figure out what YOU believe in relation to what others believe.
> 
> ...


 
What do you mean by, "I was there at Sinai?" 
 I wasn't saying you were a confused person I said it's confusion to practice two different religions. I remember you posted a thread about how to know which God wanted you to practice or something like that. Have you decided to practice both? Are you saying you and DH are of these differing religions and that's why you attend both?

It has nothing to do with judgment from me or either of those religions. It is confusion to have two religions who are in conflict regarding their teachings.  Are you Catholic or Jewish or neither and just attend both services? Wait a minute, are you saying that you attend both services at one place? Your place of worship mixes Judaism and Catholicism in one service? I'm confused.

No one said it was necessary for salvation neither did we imply it but we said it is necessary for your walk in Christ to keep you from falling because it strengthens us. It is important, it helps tremendously but you can still go to heaven without receiving it. We keep saying that but you keep saying we are saying you need it for salvation. Unless you mean salvation as in "work out your own salvation"(Christian walk)? We quoted those scriptures already. 

I think you should start a different thread if you want to discuss the difference between what the Protestants, Jews and Catholics believe about receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost and water baptism. We are kinda all over the place with multiple topics. As far as I know, Catholics believe in receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues but they don't believe it's necessary to receive everlasting life either. Maybe one of the Catholic sisters will chime in on your thread.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 27, 2008)

FoxyScholar said:


> Ms. Honey is saying things more succintly than I am...and yes, Ms. Honey and I are on the same wavelength. Speaking in tongues is importanty, yes, even CRUCIAL to this earthly Christian walk.


 
Crucial, there's that word again...deciding factor, necessary.  So, unless you speak tongues, you're not really walking as a christian?  I'm not trying to confound but am trying to get you two to say how it's crucial...important?  Perhaps...but crucial???






FoxyScholar said:


> I wanted to sidestep this but WOW on attending all those different kinds of services. That has to be confusing/complex/contradictory.


 
No, not at all.  Both use a liturgy, there is substantial "old testament" in the RCC in the liturgy. Elements carried directly through.  Like I said, there are quite a few folks I know who do what we do.  What I would say is difficult is the union of a pentecostal and an orthodox christian.  That is a riot because they judge each other to death...we've got a few of those in the family.  The problem is in judging and condeming folks.  I don't teach this to my kids.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 27, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> What do you mean by, "I was there at Sinai?"
> I wasn't saying you were a confused person I said it's confusion to practice two different religions. I remember you posted a thread about how to know which God wanted you to practice or something like that. Have you decided to practice both? Are you saying you and DH are of these differing religions and that's why you attend both?
> 
> It has nothing to do with judgment from me or either of those religions. It is confusion to have two religions who are in conflict regarding their teachings. Are you Catholic or Jewish or neither and just attend both services? Wait a minute, are you saying that you attend both services at one place? Your place of worship mixes Judaism and Catholicism in one service? I'm confused.
> ...


 
I think I explained my reasoning earlier and I'm a bright one.  Yes, you implied confused person.  Confusion, confused person...same thing.  But that's okay, my feelings aren't hurt.    I wanted to know *why* YOU believe that there is a baptism of the H-ly Spirit separate from that received in baptism.  

Then the issue of its cruciality was brought up at some point.  Someone can't answer the question.  The reason I was comparing the information with catholicism is that YOUR christianity came from the universal church and after the reformation, down through the line, another "sect"  was formed and is all based upon interpretation of the original...you explained non-denominational....I get it.  Going to the source and trying to figure out how you arrived at that conclusion???  Someone can't answer the question, though, why they chose to say it was necessary.  But I disagree that it wasn't said ...it's right there in English, post #74 and the quotes were incorrectly merged so it's hard to tell who said it.  I know I didn't.  It's there.  I asked why it was said "necessary."  It's really simple.  Don't use the word if that's not what was meant.  I'll leave it alone.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 27, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:
> 
> 
> > Let me ask you this since you attend both Jewish synagogue and the Catholic church and don't see the conflict.
> ...


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## Ms.Honey (Dec 27, 2008)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> So, regarding post #96 and I believe it was MsHoney who said that "_*I agree but the point I was trying to make was that it is not a requirement to receive salvation and was different than water baptism. I believe it is necessary even crucial to receive it. "*_ ...
> 
> I ask how is it crucial? If someone - one of my friends - asked me about the RCC/Orthodox or protestant churches and their belief on salvation, what is it, how to get it, why is it important...which has happened, what am I supposed to tell them? I'm hearing conflicting information from diff. groups that claim christianity on what salvation is. If somebody tells me that it's crucial to speak tongues, that it is a necessary component of salvation and they don't explain exactly how but that it's not a requirement for heaven but it's crucial, necessary...conflict! You guys are looking at me...and I'm looking at y'all!!!!1 So, which is it?
> 
> And what I suspect is that it's based upon either personal or congregational interpretation and not according to the large singular (well, we realize there are sects of it) group of people who call themselves *christians*. It seem to be open up to individual interpretation.


 
Ok, I think I see where you're getting confused.

When you ask Jesus to come into your heart and save you aand repent of your sins, you receive the promise of salvation, you become born again (saved). When you want to *publicly* align yourself with Jesus you ask to receive a water baptism AFTER you ask Jesus to save you. You HAVE to be already saved to receive water baptism. When you want to receive the power to become a witness Jesus said He would give us you ask to receive the baptism of the HolyGhost. It is important and necessary crucial to receive the both baptisms to live to our full potential as Christians *BUT* neither baptism is a requirement to receive salvation because you *MUST* receive salvation first. You can go to heaven without receiving either baptism and you can also be a great Christian without receiving either it is just going to be *harder to fight temptation among other things that it provides for us* without that power if you don't.


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## Ms.Honey (Dec 27, 2008)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Ms.Honey said:
> 
> 
> > I wouldn't give anyone the satisfaction of trying to condemn me to hell.
> ...


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## firecracker (Dec 27, 2008)

Speaking in tongues is important to some folks.  No matter how much ya'll scream about how important it is in your world.  Folks ain't gonna agree with everything you say or your truth.  Whatever ya'll do just don't slap the heck outta me when you bust into the holy ghost or pig latin.  LOL


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Dec 27, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:
> 
> 
> > I just asked what you believed, who do YOU say Jesus is, like you have been asking us what we believe. Now I'm trying to condemn you to hell? Were you trying to condemn us to hell by asking those simple questions? I didn't think so but whatever.
> ...


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## Ms.Honey (Dec 27, 2008)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> It's cool. I already told you what I believe. Who me? Never. But you know my questions were for you to show how you arrived at that conclusion ..throu widely-held interpretation? And you and I know that your last question wasn't a theological question. The issue was how important is speaking in tongues and whether (as it was stated previously) it is necessary for salvation and how one arrived at that conclusion.


 
OT: Your name, what is it? What does it mean?

I still don't know who you think Jesus is because you haven't answered that. I remember you started a thread asking us to pray for you because you were unsure what to do. 
http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=311491



GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> None of my J- friends/family have the right answer for me because of my obvious affiliation with the C. None of the C- members (and I've consulted 2 priests but didn't get the answer) comprehend my dilemma in the way that I presented it. I don't desire to be a part of this one separate org. that blends the two because I do not trust their theology. If I wish to be J, then I know to go the orthodox route. If I choose to be C, then I prefer the oldest form of it. I've been a part previously and it proved to be frustrating. Perhaps G-d will reveal something at a specific time and we'll all open our eyes. Until then, I feel incomplete.
> 
> What I'm trying to say without spilling it all out in all the details is what do you do when you have supernatural events in your life that lend credibility to what others would consider two separate faiths? I'm seeing something that my family is not and it's troubling me because the soul of them are so attached to me. Either choice, I am very much alone in this.
> 
> I truly pain to write this but I guess that I should just ask for you all to pray for me. Pray that I find why these events seek me out. Before someone get alarmed I'm hallucinating or witnessing something diabolical, it's not. Not at all. It's just that there are some of us in between (judaism and christianity) and (Jews for Jesus is not an option for a variety of reasons) I guess, not all is revealed. I know, it's rather cryptic...but just please pray that G-d answers my question.


 
*Mat 6:24*No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
*Luk 16:13*No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.


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## HeChangedMyName (Dec 27, 2008)

For the record, I tried to stay out of this thread, but speaking in tongues isn't necessary for salvation, however it is to serve several reasons.  Foxy stated some of them earlier it is also to serve as evidence of the Holy Spirit.  However, if you have ever read the parable of the servants and and there talents and gifts.. . .you'll know that the last thing that God wants you to do is to hide what he gave you and return it to him without any growth.  With that being said, MY OPINION and BELIEF is that you must be saved to be water baptized and then you must ask and be willing and ready to receive the batizm of the Holy Spirit, once you have that then you can communicate with God in a way that the devil can't hear or know about, and on top of that, lives are changed for hearing people speak in tongues in some cases. . .like when a sinner understands the tongues and comes to Jesus because that message you just babbled was for them on a spiritual level.  The devil will have Christians confused about speaking in tongues(of course because he wants to lessen the importance of it so that he can keep his ear out on what we are saying to God in the natural and keep us living naturally rather than spiritually, but that's an entirely different thread) til the end of time, so the best place to seek the truth is with God himself.


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## Ms.Honey (Dec 27, 2008)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> It's cool. I already told you what I believe. Who me? Never. But you know my questions were for you to show how you arrived at that conclusion ..throu widely-held interpretation? And you and I know that your last question wasn't a theological question. *The issue was how important is speaking in tongues and whether (as it was stated previously) it is necessary for salvation and how one arrived at that conclusion*.


 


Ms.Honey said:


> Ok, I think I see where you're getting confused.
> 
> When you ask Jesus to come into your heart and save you aand repent of your sins, you receive the promise of salvation, you become born again (saved). When you want to *publicly* align yourself with Jesus you ask to receive a water baptism AFTER you ask Jesus to save you. You HAVE to be already saved to receive water baptism. When you want to receive the power to become a witness Jesus said He would give us you ask to receive the baptism of the HolyGhost. It is important and necessary crucial to receive the both baptisms to live to our full potential as Christians *BUT* neither baptism is a requirement to receive salvation because you *MUST* receive salvation first. You can go to heaven without receiving either baptism and you can also be a great Christian without receiving either it is just going to be *harder to fight temptation among other things that it provides for us* without that power if you don't.


 
We gave you scriptures but I think you want us to give you some religious writings apart from them. We don't use any. We just go by what the scripture says. We use the holy bible only.


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## NGraceO (Dec 28, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> *Water baptism is an outward sign of an inner grace.* It's a sign to the world that you've made your allegiance with Christ. The Baptism of the Holy Ghost is an empowerment promised by Jesus to all generations, not ending with the early church. The book of Acts speaks of people receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit past Pentacost, you have to read the WHOLE book of Acts.
> 
> All Israel is not of the promise. He speaks of who specifically is Israel. He said all in Israel is not of Israel (Rom. 9:6) and Abraham had many sons not just Ishmael and Issac, but not all will be blessed in the same way. He speaks of who is Israel," Your mother is a Hittite(black woman) and your father is an Amorite (Eze. 16)


 
Do you have a scripture reference for this claim?? I believe that bolded phrase is incorrect. In Romans 6:3-5 it clearly states that baptism is one participating in the death, burial, and resurrection of christ....nothing stated of "symbolism." Also, in Acts 2:38, it states that your must repent then be baptized for the forgivness of sins. Therefore I take from that baptism leads to forgiveness of sins, period. Acts al;so makes it clear that you must first believe (or accept the message of christ), repent, then be baptized. Those three canNot be separted.



Ms.Honey said:


> Did someone actually say that in this thread? I don't recall that. Tongues is a sign that you have received the Baptism.
> 
> Some folks tradition may say that but *the bible does not say that you need to be baptized with water or receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to go to heaven or to receive salvation.* What it does say is the Baptism stregthens us to keep His commandments among other things.


 
Yes it does. John 3:5. water & the spirit= baptism. (water = baptism, spirit=the gift you recieve when you are baptized. acts 2:38) Also 1 peter 3:20  states that baptism SAVES us. 

All scriptures referred to:

*Romans 6:3-5 (New International Version)*


3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.  5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.

*Acts 2:38 (New International Version)*


 38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

*John 3:5 (New International Version)*


 5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.




* 1 Peter 3:20-22 (New International Version)*
20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[a] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.


HTH LADIES!!!! MUAH!!

ETA:
I posted this after reading only a coupla pages of this post. I posted to correct some conceptions which had no bibical foundation. after reading a coupla more pages, I see this thread has turned into something it shouldn't have. I believe the Word of God speaks for itself, therefore we shouldn't argue about it. Bickering isn't of God (2 timothy2:23-24). I won't be back btw. 
(hehe) God bless all!
1 Timothy 6:3-5 (New International Version)

This seemed like a great scripture to accompany my exit:
" 3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain."
-2timothy 6:3-5


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## Ms.Honey (Dec 28, 2008)

Nnelove said:


> Do you have a scripture reference for this claim?? I believe that bolded phrase is incorrect. In Romans 6:3-5 it clearly states that baptism is one participating in the death, burial, and resurrection of christ....nothing stated of "symbolism." Also, in Acts 2:38, it states that your must repent then be baptized for the forgivness of sins. Therefore I take from that baptism leads to forgiveness of sins, period. Acts al;so makes it clear that you must first believe (or accept the message of christ), repent, then be baptized. Those three canNot be separted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Ummm, you need to use a concordance or bible dictionary or something. We are saved by grace which is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. If water baptism saved us then Jesus would not have had to die on the cross He would have just told us to be baptized with water. 

HIS RESURRECTION IS *THE* BAPTISM. 
He went into the ground in His mortal body(submersion symbolizes this) and He arose from the dead in His new immortal body (raising from the submersion of water symbolizes this) that is what water baptism symbolizes. Every other baptism SYMBOLIZES the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus from the OT to the NT ex. God causing the waters to recede and dividing them above and below the firmament in the beginning, Noah's flood, Moses *SPRINKLING NOT SUBMERGING* Israel with hyssop, John the Baptists baptisms, Jesus' first baptism, Lazarus' resurrection, the Ethiopians' in the *DESERT,* the Apostles and ours. 

Water doesn't save us, can not cleanse us or make us whole. The blood of Jesus washing over us (baptism) is the only thing that can and does through repentance of our sins and asking Him to save us at the time of salvation. We are also washed with the water of the Word another form of baptism(cleansing). We get baptized with water out of obedience to God not unto salvation.


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## firecracker (Dec 31, 2008)

SuperNova said:


> For the record, I tried to stay out of this thread, but speaking in tongues isn't necessary for salvation, however it is to serve several reasons. Foxy stated some of them earlier it is also to serve as evidence of the Holy Spirit. However, if you have ever read the parable of the servants and and there talents and gifts.. . .you'll know that the last thing that God wants you to do is to hide what he gave you and return it to him without any growth. With that being said, MY OPINION and BELIEF is that you must be saved to be water baptized and then you must ask and be willing and ready to receive the batizm of the Holy Spirit, once you have that then you can communicate with God in a way that the devil can't hear or know about, and on top of that, lives are changed for hearing people speak in tongues in some cases. . .like when a sinner understands the tongues and comes to Jesus because that message you just babbled was for them on a spiritual level. The devil will have Christians confused about speaking in tongues(of course because he wants to lessen the importance of it so that he can keep his ear out on what we are saying to God in the natural and keep us living naturally rather than spiritually, but that's an entirely different thread) til the end of time, so the best place to seek the truth is with God himself.


 Its a gift but bible beating isn't thats for sure.  Jesus didn't beat folks into thinking like he thought.  He performed miracles and acts.  The Devil can't beat God no matter how or what style you praise him.


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