# Ethiopian Women!



## Shine-On (Jun 13, 2006)

Have beautiful hair! 

I was standing behind a lady yesterday at lunch and I can't stop thinking about how healthy her hair was. It was simply styled (braid-out). Another walked in shortly after her and wore her hair blowdried and pinned up in the back. Both were at brastrap length. Their hair texture is kinky but so thick and healthy. For the most part, the most I see them doing to their strands are color applications. I am wondering about their diet. Does anyone know anything about of their hair practices?


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## Denim And Leather (Jun 13, 2006)

Shine-On said:
			
		

> Have beautiful hair!
> 
> I was standing behind a lady yesterday at lunch and I can't stop thinking about how healthy her hair was. It was simply styled (braid-out). Another walked in shortly after her and wore her hair blowdried and pinned up in the back. Both were at brastrap length. Their hair texture is kinky but so thick and healthy. For the most part, the most I see them doing to their strands are color applications. I am wondering about their diet. Does anyone know anything about of their hair practices?


 
I have seen some Ethiopian women with nice looking hair.  Now I'm curious as to what their hair practices are, too.

BTW, Shine-On, your hair looks very pretty in those pics!


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## Queenie (Jun 13, 2006)

There was a thread on this a while back with a lot of responses. Try doing a search.

One thing I started doing as a result of it was rubbing some ghee into my hair a night & sleeping w/a shower cap and washing it out in the AM. Of course I will only do it if I am doing a wash n go. It's very moisturizing.


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## Isis (Jun 13, 2006)

I've met a few Ethiopian women with long, thidk, beautiful hair.  I didn't take the opportunity to ask them anything though, I just compliemented them.
One wore her hair a lot in two, waist-length box braids or one braid down her back, wearing it in a loose braidout on occasion.


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## chocolatesis (Jun 13, 2006)

They do have beautiful hair.  I'm not sure what their hair practices might be, but IMO it's probably mostly genetics.  In my experience, most Ethiopians and Somalians tend to have hair that is more on the curly side.  I used to date a guy from Somalia and he had hair that was kinky/curly, but his brother (different mother) had hair that was straight.


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## foxybrownsugar (Jun 13, 2006)

I wish I could answer your question. I have only known two eithiopian americans in undergrad & they both used creme of nature red back then. I wish now that I had asked about their routines too. OT, I think dominicans and women from africa esp. this region in africa (sudan, somalia, south eygpt/nubia, eithopia) are so beautiful.


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## Poohbear (Jun 13, 2006)

What does Ethiopian hair look like? Any pics?


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## foxybrownsugar (Jun 13, 2006)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> What does Ethiopian hair look like? Any pics?


Generally speaking, they tend to have thick/coarse strands. Sorry, I donot have any pics but if your ever in the DC/MD area you may meet some. They have quite a population there but they tend to stay among themselves. I'm not in DC anymore.


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## foxybrownsugar (Jun 13, 2006)

I think there is a eithipian supermodel if I'm not mistaken? I will try to get her name. I know she was on oprah last yr, i think (not talkin about alek)?


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## JLove74 (Jun 13, 2006)

foxybrownsugar said:
			
		

> I think there is a eithipian supermodel if I'm not mistaken? I will try to get her name. I know she was on oprah last yr, i think (not talkin about alek)?


 
Talkin' about Liya Kebede, she is beautiful....


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## Blaque*Angel (Jun 13, 2006)

*Liya* *Kebede
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


*


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## Blaque*Angel (Jun 13, 2006)




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## foxybrownsugar (Jun 13, 2006)

JLove74 said:
			
		

> Talkin' about Liya Kebede, she is beautiful....


Yes that's her! thanx girl! ok, PB, I'm internet savvy so you can go to oprah.com. I type in ethiopian supermodel in the search box. Then click on the episode INSIDE THE FISTULA HOSPITAL. And there is a big pic of her. Her hair is not as long as the eithiopians I met though but they have simialr facial features etc. hth Thanx  for the pics wantlonghealthyhair.


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## Poohbear (Jun 13, 2006)

wantlonghealthyhair said:
			
		

> *Liya* *Kebede
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She's pretty!  So her hair is naturally straight?


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## foxybrownsugar (Jun 13, 2006)

OT: I have a innocent crush on the ethiopian excutive chef, Marcus ? (I'm bad w/names)the one who works in Ny with the swedish adoptive mom and is on the cooking channels. I really think I'm going to marry a non-american one day. I have a preoccupation with ppl from foreign lands. Ok time for me to go. I have been here all day which is unusal for me.


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## caligirl (Jun 13, 2006)

Yes, they do have beautiful hair!   There are a lot of Ethiopian women here in D.C.  I notice for the most part they wear their hair natural: cornrows, box braids, wash and go, etc.  The ones I have seen have had thick, shiny, silky 3cish hair.  I figure their hair is so long because they mostly leave it natural.


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## dannie (Jun 13, 2006)

My manager is Ethiopian and she has shoulder length, highlighted hair...very thick. I'd say she is a 3b. Sometimes she wears her hair natural and curly, but often she blow dries it straight. One week she must have got it flat ironed because it was so silky and shiny looking. 

I haven't asked her any hair care advice though.  I can if ya'll want me to, she's just in the other room.


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## Belladonna (Jun 13, 2006)

My best friend is Ethiopian. One thing is for sure is that she uses relaxers sparingingly. She really used it for combatting the humidity. She also rarely used heat. Mostly wash and go. 
She and her sisters used roller sets if straighter styles are desired. I will have to ask her about the ghee,though.


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## glamazon386 (Jun 13, 2006)

I have a friend that is Ethiopian from school. He has gorgeous hair. I also have a friend who is half black and somalian who has gorgeous hair as well. I've seen a few other Ethiopians around and they have type 3 hair. They have gorgeous shiny small curls.  Here's his hair. I hope he doesn't mind me stealing this picture out of his gallery on facebook lol


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## hopeful (Jun 13, 2006)

dannie_19 said:
			
		

> My manager is Ethiopian and she has shoulder length, highlighted hair...very thick. I'd say she is a 3b. Sometimes she wears her hair natural and curly, but often she blow dries it straight. One week she must have got it flat ironed because it was so silky and shiny looking.
> 
> I haven't asked her any hair care advice though.* I can if ya'll want me to, she's just in the other room.*


 
LOL, yes girl, get the scoop.


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## Isis (Jun 13, 2006)

dannie_19 said:
			
		

> My manager is Ethiopian and she has shoulder length, highlighted hair...very thick. I'd say she is a 3b. Sometimes she wears her hair natural and curly, but often she blow dries it straight. One week she must have got it flat ironed because it was so silky and shiny looking.
> 
> I haven't asked her any hair care advice though. I can if ya'll want me to, she's just in the other room.


Yes! Please ask her what her regimen and products are for us. Thank you!


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## dannie (Jun 13, 2006)

hopeful said:
			
		

> LOL, yes girl, get the scoop.


 
She'd probably be like "*****, why you in here asking me about my hair when your a$$ should be working"


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## Lusa (Jun 13, 2006)

I have always attributed a lot of North and East African's features such as their hair to their mixed lineage (Arab & African). So, I don't think there's a whole lot they have to do to maintain what they have since most of their hair is very manageable and tends to grow longer than your average African.  However, this is not to say they do not take care of their hair, they do.


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## MeechUK (Jun 13, 2006)

Shine-On said:
			
		

> Have beautiful hair!
> 
> I was standing behind a lady yesterday at lunch and I can't stop thinking about how healthy her hair was. It was simply styled (braid-out). Another walked in shortly after her and wore her hair blowdried and pinned up in the back. Both were at brastrap length. Their hair texture is kinky but so thick and healthy. For the most part, the most I see them doing to their strands are color applications. I am wondering about their diet. Does anyone know anything about of their hair practices?



Hi Shine-On,
I am a food fanatic and I love cooking!  I realised that although I have a lot of African/Morrocan Cookbooks, I had never considered Ethiopia. I found these recipes and bit about Ehtiopian food on the internet. 

http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Cookbook/Ethiopia.html#IAB

HTH,
MeechUK


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## hopeful (Jun 13, 2006)

dannie_19 said:
			
		

> She'd probably be like *"*****, why you in here asking me about my hair when your a$$ should be working"*


 
Ooooh I hope not.  LOL that could be embarrassing...


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## KiniKakes (Jun 13, 2006)

Lusa said:
			
		

> I have always attributed a lot of North and East African's features such as their hair to their mixed lineage (Arab & African). So, I don't think there's a whole lot they have to do to maintain what they have since most of their hair is very manageable and tends to grow longer than your average African. However, this is not to say they do not take care of their hair, they do.


 
I agree with this.

I have a lot of Ethiopian friends/acquaintances as well, and they all have 3b textured hair.  Sure, its nice..... but in the same way that anyone on this board has "nice" hair.  I've never seen anything especially unique about their hair or the way they take care of it, collectively as a culture, that stands out other than the fact that they have the silky, curly/cork-screw, 3-type hair.

Its no more beautiful (to me), than any 3 or 4-textured hair on a person of African descent.  I hope no one thinks Im being "difficult" or anything..... but when I think of Ethiopian hair I just think of the regular, 3-type bi-racial looking hair..... and so to me this is like starting a thread that reads "Bi-racial Women" and talking about how "gorgeous" their 3b hair is.  You know what I mean?

I mean no harm by this comment..... so I hope no one interprets it this way.   I guess my point is that, yes, Ethiopian hair is lovely..... I by no means want to take that away from them.... but it is no lovelier than other African hair textures. And Ive never bought into the whole idea of saluting and/or envying other hair-types.  Perhaps this wasnt the point of the thread.... and perhaps it wasnt necessarily addressing a particular hair type (since the author described the Ethiopian woman's hair as "kinky and thick," which is not what I would describe it as). So i could be far off with this comment.... if so, i apologize.


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## jasmine26 (Jun 13, 2006)

my dad is ethiopian/yemenese. He goes to ethiopia every year. I always send him on missions to get jewelry but i will send him to retrieve info on what the women put in their hair. He's currently overseas so i can't call him to pick his brains But i'm planning on going to nyc this weekend and i always eat at Awash. i know the lady owner and i will inquire about what they put in their hair!


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## Aubergold (Jun 13, 2006)

my best friend is ethiopian, she beautiful.  She has 3b/c hair that is past brastrap when straighthen and she doesn't do anything, not a damn thing.  She doesnt have a relaxer. She does wash and goes when she feels like it, goes for a blow out when she feels like it and shampoos and conditions once a week in the shower.  No regimen or anything and it just does it's thing.


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## jwhitley6 (Jun 13, 2006)

KiniKakes said:
			
		

> I agree with this.
> 
> I have a lot of Ethiopian friends/acquaintances as well, and they all have 3b textured hair. Sure, its nice..... but in the same way that anyone on this board has "nice" hair. I've never seen anything especially unique about their hair or the way they take care of it, collectively as a culture, that stands out other than the fact that they have the silky, curly/cork-screw, 3-type hair.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks Kini.  ITA...I was starting to get a little disturbed by the thread, too.  I agree that they have pretty hair, but there are no Ethiopian foods or hair techniques that will make my 4a/b hair look like their 3b-ish....they could never be "hair idols" for me, but I can appreciate the beauty of all hair types.


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## Isis (Jun 13, 2006)

jwhitley6 said:
			
		

> Thanks Kini. ITA...I was starting to get a little disturbed by the thread, too. I agree that they have pretty hair, but there are no Ethiopian foods or hair techniques that will make my 4a/b hair look like their 3b-ish....they could never be "hair idols" for me, but I can appreciate the beauty of all hair types.


I understand where you are coming from Jwhitley and KiniKakes.  For me though, I can see how their Ethiopian foods or hair techniques can assist in making my 4b hair look like healthier, prettier 4b hair.

For example, this is part of why I enjoy eating lots of sea vegetables.  Besides being more of an Asian food staple (which I find delicious ), it also bring more beauty to hair, mainly from the iodine and other naturally occurring minerals and vitamins.  And Asian hair for the most part is greatly admired and beautiful enough to be made into weaves for Americans.  I enjoy my sea veggies knowing I won't have type 1 or 2b Asian hair, but I'll sure have healthier 4b hair. 


.


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## Lusa (Jun 13, 2006)

jwhitley6 said:
			
		

> ...I was starting to get a little disturbed by the thread, too. I agree that they have pretty hair, but there are no Ethiopian foods or hair techniques that will make my 4a/b hair look like their 3b-ish....they could never be "hair idols" for me, but I can appreciate the beauty of all hair types.


 
Ditto, those are my exact sentiments!


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## beyondcute (Jun 13, 2006)

Oh dear.... I thought this thread was to find info about how they kept thier hair healthy not to admire and oogle over thier bi-racial-liek hair.... Either way I an see what you ladies mean... Sometimes these threads tend to take a turn for the worse...


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## Shimmerwink (Jun 13, 2006)

Lusa said:
			
		

> I have always attributed a lot of North and East African's features such as their hair to their mixed lineage (Arab & African). So, I don't think there's a whole lot they have to do to maintain what they have since most of their hair is very manageable and tends to grow longer than your average African. However, this is not to say they do not take care of their hair, they do.


 

You are right.  It's in the genes...... I have Ethiopian friends and they don't do anything special it just grows......  Somalis have similar type hair too........


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## KiniKakes (Jun 13, 2006)

jwhitley6 said:
			
		

> Thanks Kini. ITA...I was starting to get a little disturbed by the thread, too. *I agree that they have pretty hair, but there are no Ethiopian foods or hair techniques that will make my 4a/b hair look like their 3b-ish....*they could never be "hair idols" for me, but I can appreciate the beauty of all hair types.


 
RIGHT.  And glad to see that i'm not alone in those sentiments..... I had to step away from the computer to run an errand, and I have to admit i was kinda nervous to check this thread again. I didnt know if i would be coming back to read an onslaught of attacks against me, lol. _*wipes forehead in relief*_


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## KiniKakes (Jun 13, 2006)

Isis said:
			
		

> I understand where you are coming from Jwhitley and KiniKakes. For me though, I can see how their Ethiopian foods or hair techniques can assist in making my 4b hair look like healthier, prettier 4b hair.
> 
> For example, this is part of why I enjoy eating lots of sea vegetables. *Besides being more of an Asian food staple (which I find delicious ), it also bring more beauty to hair, mainly from the iodine and other naturally occurring minerals and vitamins.* And Asian hair for the most part is greatly admired and beautiful enough to be made into weaves for Americans. *I enjoy my sea veggies knowing I won't have type 1 or 2b Asian hair, but I'll sure have healthier 4b hair. *
> 
> ...


 
That I can definitely agree with and respect.


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## foxybrownsugar (Jun 13, 2006)

oh dear, I hope a fire doesnt start. I can see the beauty in all hair types/textures and I hope that you all can too.


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## Cinnabuns (Jun 13, 2006)

bmoreflyygirl said:
			
		

> I have a friend that is Ethiopian from school. He has gorgeous hair. I also have a friend who is half black and somalian who has gorgeous hair as well. I've seen a few other Ethiopians around and they have type 3 hair. They have gorgeous shiny small curls.  Here's his hair. I hope he doesn't mind me stealing this picture out of his gallery on facebook lol



Wow...I have the exact hair texture.


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## ximenia (Jun 13, 2006)

> Originally Posted by Lusa
> I have always attributed a lot of North and East African's features such as their hair to their mixed lineage (Arab & African). So, I don't think there's a whole lot they have to do to maintain what they have since most of their hair is very manageable and tends to grow longer than your average African. However, this is not to say they do not take care of their hair, they do.



ethiopians are not mixed. some marry arabs but they had that hair texture before they started mixing with arabs. i have a side interest in genetics and based on the gene studies ive read, its the arabs who are descended from the ethiopians, not the other way around. arabs are basically lighter skinned ethiopians. they have ethiopian features too. a person can be 100% pure east african and have 3c/b/a hair and a straight nose. those features are pure african and you'll see them throughout africa. when we think africa we have a tendency to believe that all africans look alike (flat nose, big lips, 4b hair) and if they dont it must mean theyre mixed. not so. african people are more genetically diverse than other group.


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## hopeful (Jun 13, 2006)

KiniKakes said:
			
		

> RIGHT. And glad to see that i'm not alone in those sentiments..... I had to step away from the computer to run an errand, and I have to admit i was kinda nervous to check this thread again. *I didnt know if i would be coming back to read an onslaught of attacks against me, lol. *wipes forehead in relief**


 
Girl, can't nobody get mad at you.  You just said how you felt, and quite politely and respectfully I might add.

Carry on ladies, this is an interesting thread.


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## bajanplums1 (Jun 13, 2006)

All the Ethiopians I have known told me that there are East Indian roots in the country.  Perhaps that affects the hair's texture.


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## Shine-On (Jun 13, 2006)

Oh wow!  I haven't checked this thread since I posted it earlier. Please excuse my ignorance, I had no idea what hair type Ethiopian women had. If someone asked me I would have answered that their hair type was 4a/b. I didn't think too hard about classifying them as that wasn't the focus of my post. erplexed 

When I saw the two women on my lunch break, one wore a braid-out and with the exception of the hair color, her hair that looked very similar to Isis' in her avatar. The other had her hair blowdried and it appeared thick, kinky and healthy (not bone straight at all). I view Ethopian woman as women of color, like myself and am simply interested in what they do for their hair.

If I, like a few other women on this board, had type 3ish hair, then would it have been okay for me to compliment the Ethopian women I saw? 

Maybe I'm just an eager newcommer (I know I am ) but I would like to know what the women do to maintain the condition of their hair. I don't see my post being any different than posts inquiring about Dominican salon styling practices or Dominican product reviews. Now their hair (Dominicans) is TOTALLY different than mine in texture but I sure don't mind copying their blowout technique to stretch my relaxer. I also like some of their conditioners. 3ish, 4ish, 5ish hair? As long as it's beautiful, I wanna know the 411. 

Bless


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## KiniKakes (Jun 13, 2006)

ximenia said:
			
		

> *ethiopians are not mixed.* *some marry arabs but they had that hair texture before they started mixing with arabs.* i have a side interest in genetics and based on the gene studies ive read, its the arabs who are descended from the ethiopians, not the other way around. arabs are basically lighter skinned ethiopians. they have ethiopian features too. a person can be 100% pure east african and have 3c/b/a hair and a straight nose. those features are pure african and you'll see them throughout africa. *when we think africa we have a tendency to believe that all africans look alike (flat nose, big lips, 4b hair) and if they dont it must mean theyre mixed. not so. african people are more genetically diverse than other group.*


 
The "mixing" of ancestry took place centuries ago.  In many instances, African descended persons were the product of the continuous contact taking place across the Indian Ocean from as early as 2000 B.C.E. which continued right up through the period of European expansion. The Cholas of southern India for example were traders who traded with and often took wives from the African populations in the Indian Ocean and mainland Africa. There was thus a constant mixing of populations from surrounding areas (through trading and/or colonization), many of whom took up residence in Ethiopia.  So yes, when you break it down like that, Ethiopians (and other Africans in Africa) are of "mixed ancestry."  So I agree with you that "not all Africans look alike", but those who do not have the "wider nose, full lips, and 4b hair" that you described are often a product of mixed ancestry (ie, Somalians w/East Indian, Egyptians w/Portugese, etc.).


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## brownbarbie (Jun 13, 2006)

Girl, I thought I was the only one!


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## glamazon386 (Jun 13, 2006)

ximenia said:
			
		

> ethiopians are not mixed. some marry arabs but they had that hair texture before they started mixing with arabs. i have a side interest in genetics and based on the gene studies ive read, its the arabs who are descended from the ethiopians, not the other way around. arabs are basically lighter skinned ethiopians. they have ethiopian features too. a person can be 100% pure east african and have 3c/b/a hair and a straight nose. those features are pure african and you'll see them throughout africa. when we think africa we have a tendency to believe that all africans look alike (flat nose, big lips, 4b hair) and if they dont it must mean theyre mixed. not so. african people are more genetically diverse than other group.



You're right. All civilization started in Ethiopia.


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## KiniKakes (Jun 13, 2006)

Shine-On said:
			
		

> Oh wow!  I haven't checked this thread since I posted it earlier. *Please excuse my ignorance, I had no idea what hair type Ethiopian women had.* If someone asked me I would have answered that their hair type was 4a/b. I didn't think too hard about classifying them as that wasn't the focus of my post. erplexed


 
No need to excuse yourself, sis. I think this post sparked an interesting discussion that has been enlightening for many of us. I am enjoying hearing the varying viewpoints and so forth.


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## brownbarbie (Jun 13, 2006)

OT: I have a innocent crush on the ethiopian excutive chef, Marcus ? (I'm bad w/names)the one who works in Ny with the swedish adoptive mom and is on the cooking channels. I really think I'm going to marry a non-american one day. I have a preoccupation with ppl from foreign lands. Ok time for me to go. I have been here all day which is unusal for me. 

----OK. Let me try this again...----

Girl, I thought I was the only one! 

On another note, I don't think they view other black women in a very positive light, so that's one reason that they are hush-hush on the beauty routines. They are a very beautiful people, though!


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## chocolatesis (Jun 13, 2006)

ximenia said:
			
		

> ethiopians are not mixed. some marry arabs but they had that hair texture before they started mixing with arabs. i have a side interest in genetics and based on the gene studies ive read, its the arabs who are descended from the ethiopians, not the other way around. arabs are basically lighter skinned ethiopians. they have ethiopian features too. a person can be 100% pure east african and have 3c/b/a hair and a straight nose. those features are pure african and you'll see them throughout africa. when we think africa we have a tendency to believe that all africans look alike (flat nose, big lips, 4b hair) and if they dont it must mean theyre mixed. not so. african people are more genetically diverse than other group.


 
Thank you *Ximenia*, I was about to say the same thing. Arabs are the ones who are mixed. I guess many people find it hard to believe that dark skinned people can have those types of features without being mixed.


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## nijilah (Jun 13, 2006)

I had a housemate from there when I lived in the DC area.  Using the ghee butter on your hair and scalp every night and then washing it out in the morning works wonders!  I tried it and it works but it takes time to do it.  My housemate did it all the time because her hair started to break when she came to the US.  The ghee butter at night brung hair hair back to life!


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## MizaniMami (Jun 13, 2006)

nijilah said:
			
		

> I had a housemate from there when I lived in the DC area. Using the ghee butter on your hair and scalp every night and then washing it out in the morning works wonders! I tried it and it works but it takes time to do it. My housemate did it all the time because her hair started to break when she came to the US. The ghee butter at night brung hair hair back to life!


 
What is ghee butter?


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## punchinella (Jun 13, 2006)

There are some Etheopian sisiters who own a store in my area. The first time I walked into their store they thought I was from Etheopia.They both have differnt hair textures (one is 3ish the other 4ish). They both have relaxers but their hair looks very full and healthy. I asked the one with the 4ish hair what she does and she said she greases her hair. She said "not that fake grease they have at Sally's, go to the black store and get some real grease".


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## foxybrownsugar (Jun 13, 2006)

bmoreflyygirl said:
			
		

> You're right. All civilization started in Ethiopia.


You and Ximenia are right. The Eithopia & South Eygpt or nubia/kush/nile area was long ago known as the cradle of civilization or biblically speaking part of the garden of eden all the way up to the tigris-euphrates rivers. One other river was mentioned but they are not sure about the last of the four rivers of Eden. I saw this on the history channel a few days ago. And we all know I hope that life began with a black woman (Eve). Edit:tigris, euphrates, nile, & the 4th is unknown


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## Country gal (Jun 13, 2006)

Very interesting. Thanks for the history lessons. I am learning some new stuff.


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## nurseN98 (Jun 13, 2006)

ximenia said:
			
		

> ethiopians are not mixed. some marry arabs but they had that hair texture before they started mixing with arabs. i have a side interest in genetics and based on the gene studies ive read, its the arabs who are descended from the ethiopians, not the other way around. arabs are basically lighter skinned ethiopians. they have ethiopian features too. a person can be 100% pure east african and have 3c/b/a hair and a straight nose. those features are pure african and you'll see them throughout africa. when we think africa we have a tendency to believe that all africans look alike (flat nose, big lips, 4b hair) and if they dont it must mean theyre mixed. not so. african people are more genetically diverse than other group.


Wow, very interesting post!


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## Angelicus (Jun 14, 2006)

Some people say ghee is the secret but it's not. It's the fact that they moisturize and the following: Genes, diet, and consistency.


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## MissJ (Jun 14, 2006)

I think Ethiopians have other nationalities (I think Arab) in the bloodlines than just African.  The Ethiopians I know all have 3-something hair.  It's kind of like when black people say they've got Indian in their family as to why they nice hair.


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## Mestiza (Jun 14, 2006)

Shine-On said:
			
		

> Oh wow!  I haven't checked this thread since I posted it earlier. Please excuse my ignorance, I had no idea what hair type Ethiopian women had. If someone asked me I would have answered that their hair type was 4a/b. I didn't think too hard about classifying them as that wasn't the focus of my post. erplexed
> 
> When I saw the two women on my lunch break, one wore a braid-out and with the exception of the hair color, her hair that looked very similar to Isis' in her avatar. The other had her hair blowdried and it appeared thick, kinky and healthy (not bone straight at all). I view Ethopian woman as women of color, like myself and am simply interested in what they do for their hair.
> 
> ...



You have done nothing wrong!  I'm glad that you started this thread b/c I appreciate ALL hair types (1 - 4) and can learn from ANYone who has beautiful and healthy hair (including, Ethiopians).   Hair type, texture, race, ethnic background, etc... doesn't matter one bit to me.


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## Mestiza (Jun 14, 2006)

foxybrownsugar said:
			
		

> oh dear, I hope a fire doesnt start. I can see the beauty in all hair types/textures and I hope that you all can too.



I can, too!


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## sweetascocoa (Jun 14, 2006)

my grandma is Nigerian. she is not mixed and she has 3C hair. we dont have any arabs, indians or ethiopians in our family. my dad and one of his sisters have the same hair but i have 4Z hair  LOL

someone doesnt have to be mixed to have hair that is not type 4

ETA: my greatgrandma (grandma's mum) also has the same hair type.


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## sassyhair (Jun 14, 2006)

My mother has very long black thick hair and similar facial features of ethiopians, she has always been asked it she was Ethiopian, she never knew how to take it, even when she was younger. 

I would like to know about thier pratices as well.


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## caligirl (Jun 14, 2006)

Can we stop walking on egg shells here?  I guess its not PC to say that someone with "mixed" hair has pretty hair.


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## PinkPeony (Jun 14, 2006)

KiniKakes said:
			
		

> RIGHT.  And glad to see that i'm not alone in those sentiments..... I had to step away from the computer to run an errand, and I have to admit i was kinda nervous to check this thread again. I didnt know if i would be coming back to read an onslaught of attacks against me, lol. _*wipes forehead in relief*_


ITA.I lived together with several ethopiaen/eritrean girls and the ones that lived all of their life in africa had beautiful healthy hair,the ones that grew up in germany not so much.Also one friend traveled almost every year to ethopia and was amazed by the natural waist- or even buttlength hair the woman over there had.I have to dissapoint you all,there is no secret to their regimen,just common sense.If they want straight hair they rollerset,they wash and moisturize their hair often and pretty much leave it alone.My friend that had beautiful 3c/4a hair started using relaxers after her other ethopian friends made fun about her *kinks*,her beautiful midback length hair went to fried brastraphair.Eventually me and a friend could talk sense into her and she got back to her old routine.Btw- I loved to eat ethopian food,we girls always cooked for each other and their food usually was very spicy but yummy.I did not ask them what they used for cooking tough,as long as it tastes good I`am fine.


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## Zakina (Jun 14, 2006)

I've read only some of the posts on this thread but all I can say is that Somalians(I am a Somali) are originally abyssinians mixed with arabs....so we have arab ancestry.


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## FlowerHair (Jun 14, 2006)

I have a friend who is adopted from Ethiopia, she went there to visit her birth-mother and was also astonished when she saw all the beautiful heads of hair. She was brave enough to ask one lady for advice on the way home, on the plane. The lady said they relax very seldom, if they relax, around 4 times a year not more. Most women are completely natural and wear braids most of the time (no extra hair). Like someone said, their regimen is very simple and mostly when they move to Europe or USA they change their regimens and start losing hair. 

Anyone can do what they do, by relaxing less or just staying natural and don't worry so much about fuzz or frizz, just let your hair do it's thing 

And about them being mixed with arabs etc, yes it's true, but have you thought about it the other way around? If they weren't mixed with Black African would their hair be so curly and coily and beautiful? As much as I appreciate Arab hair, it's nothing compared to African hair...  (I know many Arabs are also Africans, but you know what I mean)


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## YellowButterfly (Jun 14, 2006)

I have to admit Shine -On I wanted to know too.     
When I first met my friend Zin  who is from Ethiopia,  I asked her what did she do to her hair because it was pretty and I thought it was a relaxer and I wanted to know who did her hair and what type of relaxer she used. As it turned out her hair was natural and all she did was wash it and braid it for an awesome braid-out or wear it straight (I think blow dryed it). Her hair is 3 something.  Similar to what some of my South African friends do. Zin stated she had a relaxer just one time and let it grow out because she hated it. She kept finding hair all over the bathroom and her hairdresser told her she would get use to it. She told her she did not want to get use to it and let it grow out. I just think it is wonderful in this day and age that we can appreciate the beauty of  people of  African Descent whether African American or from the Motherland . I have to admit I learned some good information from the Brazilian hair secret thread a while back.


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## mslondon (Jun 14, 2006)

I asked my ethiopian friend if she used ghee or unsalted butter in her hair but she said she had never heard of ghee. She told me she & her friends use a honey & sunflower mix for their hair and nothing more apart from washing and conditioning like the rest mankind. Their hair is purely down to genetics and it will break and shed like anyother hair texture if not cared for.


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## Country gal (Jun 14, 2006)

caligirl said:
			
		

> Can we stop walking on egg shells here?  I guess its not PC to say that someone with "mixed" hair has pretty hair.




I don't get that impression from the posts. If someone is mixed with pretty hair, it doesn't stop me from complimenting them.


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## shelli4018 (Jun 14, 2006)

Well, there are probably very few women on this board who DON'T have mixed ancestry. Many African Americans have white and Native American ancestors. So Ethiopian hair practices may be useful after all.


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## divya (Jun 14, 2006)

Good thread. The Ethiopian women here in the DC area generally have beautiful hair. Whatever hair tips they can offer may be very beneficial. One thing that I have noticed is that many of them are natural or wear low maintenance styles. "Simple looks" are among them are most common and they look lovely.


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## Blaque*Angel (Jun 14, 2006)

_Why did this thread have to do a "U TURN" ?_


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## glamazon386 (Jun 14, 2006)

foxybrownsugar said:
			
		

> You and Ximenia are right. The Eithopia & South Eygpt or nubia/kush/nile area was long ago known as the cradle of civilization or biblically speaking part of the garden of eden all the way up to the tigris-euphrates rivers. One other river was mentioned but they are not sure about the last of the four rivers of Eden. I saw this on the history channel a few days ago. And we all know I hope that life began with a black woman (Eve). Edit:tigris, euphrates, nile, & the 4th is unknown



Yeah, I just took a class on African Civilization this past semester to finish up my African American studies minor. That was where he started. With the woman Eve's remains. I learned quite a bit. I really enjoyed the class. Sorry to hijack the thread guys! lol


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## Queenie (Jun 14, 2006)

I just remembered something a lady I knew who was half Ethopian told me. She mentioned hot oil treatments with oils from that area of the world worked much better on her hair than other hot oil treatments. One of the oils was myrrh and can't remember the other.


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## Zakina (Jun 14, 2006)

Honestly, I don't think that they are doing something special to their hair. It's just genetics.

I'm somali and I know alot of somali women with beautiful 1, 2 and 3 hair.... ...but sorry to say there is nothing special they do to their hair....it's pure and simple genetics.


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## Crissi (Jun 14, 2006)

.....................


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## Teacake (Jun 14, 2006)

```````````````````````````````


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## BrownSkin2 (Jun 14, 2006)

I also lived in the DC for a few years and the apartment I lived in, there were alot of Ethiopians living there.  I believe it is pure genetics and diet.  Also most of the Ethiopians women I've seen are slender females, and most of them are natural.  I see alot of rollersets and braid outs.

Yup, they do cook alot of spicy, curry dishes with rice and peas...


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## Tru_Mind (Jun 14, 2006)

Many of us here including me have tried Indian hair care products (Alma) and regimens. I don't have that type of hair, but my hair still benefited. I know that hair comes in different textures, types, so on and so on, but hair is still made up of the same things...right?  

Why do we still think that if we don't have the same type of hair the same products and regime won't work? We know that's not true...right?

-tru


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## jwhitley6 (Jun 14, 2006)

tru_mind said:
			
		

> Many of us here including me have tried Indian hair care products (Alma) and regimens. I don't have that type of hair, but my hair still benefited. I know that hair comes in different textures, types, so on and so on, but hair is still made up of the same things...right?
> 
> Why do we still think that if we don't have the same type of hair the same products and regime won't work? We know that's not true...right?
> 
> -tru


 
Of course hair can benefit from various products used by the different cultures.  I think the issue causing some of the dissent is that most likely, Ethiopian hair is just naturally that way (without much help from products).  If that's the case, then why ooh and awe over it, since all hair types are beautiful when properly cared for.


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## ximenia (Jun 14, 2006)

KiniKakes said:
			
		

> The "mixing" of ancestry took place centuries ago.  In many instances, African descended persons were the product of the continuous contact taking place across the Indian Ocean from as early as 2000 B.C.E. which continued right up through the period of European expansion. The Cholas of southern India for example were traders who traded with and often took wives from the African populations in the Indian Ocean and mainland Africa. There was thus a constant mixing of populations from surrounding areas (through trading and/or colonization), many of whom took up residence in Ethiopia.  So yes, when you break it down like that, Ethiopians (and other Africans in Africa) are of "mixed ancestry."  So I agree with you that "not all Africans look alike", but those who do not have the "wider nose, full lips, and 4b hair" that you described are often a product of mixed ancestry (ie, Somalians w/East Indian, Egyptians w/Portugese, etc.).



the features we ascribe to africans (big nose/lips) are common among west africans. east and south africans have different features and those features were not acquired through 'mixing' they are present and original to the african genotype. 



> Not all people of African descent have wooly hair, however. Many of the populations of North East Africa have looser hair that is not as tightly coiled as that of most other Africans. Some of these groups (the Amhara, Tigray/Tigre, Harari ) have Semetic (Sabaen) ancestry; *others have virtually no Middle Eastern admixture or significant Middle Eastern ancestry ie. the Somali, Oromo, Afar, some Nubians and so on ). Although Horn Africans are the only Africans who may have non-wooly hair without Arab or Berber admixture, Black Africans naturally differ in complexion and facial features as well without admixture with non-Blacks.*



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black/African_Hair_Texture

we don't need to be mixed to have straight or curly hair. we really need to get rid of that misconception.


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## ximenia (Jun 14, 2006)

Safina87 said:
			
		

> I've read only some of the posts on this thread but all I can say is that Somalians(I am a Somali) are originally abyssinians mixed with arabs....so we have arab ancestry.


 
abyssinia is just an old name for ethiopia. i'm sure there was geographical exchanges but somalian type 3 hair and features weren't  'given' to them by the arabs.


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## KiniKakes (Jun 14, 2006)

ximenia said:
			
		

> abyssinia is just an old name for ethiopia. i'm sure there was geographical exchanges but somalian type 3 hair and features weren't 'given' to them by the arabs.


 
With all due respect, Ximenia, how are you going to tell this girl about her _own_ ancestry?  

I do agree w/much of what you are saying... and it's obvious that you have done your research about African history, which I can definitely appreciate and respect.  But I disagree w/you on this one. *shrug* Perhaps the key word in question is "given."  Regardless of "who gave what to whom," Somalian people are made up of Arabic and African ancestry. I have a few Somalian coworkers who have stated this as well. So essentially, yes, this would make them genetically "mixed".... even if the mixing of ancestry occured centuries back.


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## KiniKakes (Jun 14, 2006)

Safina87 said:
			
		

> lol...I deleted the messege that you replied to Kinikakes...I wanted to write something much more explanatory. Anywhoo I'll be back and give you the full scoop on what Somali's are made up out of and what makes us look as we do.
> 
> EDIT: lol why did you delete your message Kinikakes?


 
Oh I was just editing it, lol.

BTW, I apologize to the originator of this thread..... because it has gotten so faaaar off topic. But I am enjoying this discussion, so I hope the moderators dont mind.


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## jasmine26 (Jun 14, 2006)

..interesting thread, it's funny how this has become a history discussion, lol!
here's my 2cents..

Ethiopians, somalians, kenyan all east african countries are mixed with arabs.
The orginial peoples of east africa had the distinct african features. There are many ethiopians who have the typical dark skinned, 4b hair and other prominent features. Southern Arabs did settle into these east african countries. Intermarrying did happen. Alot of east african vocabulary originated from arabs. the word swahili, from the swahili language is arabic for coast. The abyssinia name, which is the ancient name for ethiopia is arabic. Hence, my father is a product of this mixing. His maternal ancestry is ethiopian. His father is from Yemen, which is a southern arabic country. One of his ethiopian friends has the typical african features. My father was raised in Yemen. Vice versa, you will also find a lot of Arabs who are dark skinned and has african features because of the ancestral mixing. So while there are many fair skinned/curly 3b/c ethiopians/somalians it is a product of arab mixing that happened eons ago.

jasmine


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## Blaque*Angel (Jun 14, 2006)

tru_mind said:
			
		

> Many of us here including me have tried Indian hair care products (Alma) and regimens. I don't have that type of hair, but my hair still benefited. I know that hair comes in different textures, types, so on and so on, but hair is still made up of the same things...right?
> 
> Why do we still think that if we don't have the same type of hair the same products and regime won't work? We know that's not true...right?
> 
> -tru


 
I agree with you


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## KiniKakes (Jun 14, 2006)

jasmine26 said:
			
		

> ..interesting thread, it's funny how this has become a history discussion, lol!
> here's my 2cents..
> 
> Ethiopians, somalians, kenyan all east african countries are mixed with arabs.
> ...


 
Great breakdown. Thanks for that.


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## KiniKakes (Jun 14, 2006)

ximenia said:
			
		

> we don't need to be mixed to have straight or curly hair. we really need to get rid of that misconception.


 
Btw, I just wanted to say that i DO agree with you on this statement.  I am _very _aware that, as black ppl, it is possible to have hair other than 4b without being directly "mixed" (i say "directly" because we all have a lil' bit of Massa's gene's up in us somewhere, from when he came creeping into the slave quarters).  But anyway, please dont misunderstand my overall point.  In this thread we are talking specifically about Ethiopian/Somalian ppl, who DO happen to have a genetic mix that occurred some centuries ago. But yeah, as far as blacks not needing to be "mixed" to have type 3 hair texture, I am not disagreeing with you on that.


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## MissMarie (Jun 14, 2006)

jasmine26 said:
			
		

> Ethiopians, somalians, kenyan all east african countries are mixed with arabs.
> The orginial peoples of east africa had the distinct african features. There are many ethiopians who have the typical dark skinned, 4b hair and other prominent features. Southern Arabs did settle into these east african countries. Intermarrying did happen.
> 
> Vice versa, you will also find a lot of Arabs who are dark skinned and has african features because of the ancestral mixing. So while there are many fair skinned/curly 3b/c ethiopians/somalians it is a product of arab mixing that happened eons ago.



Actually, scientists are debating now that orginal man _did not_ have the features usually stereotyped as West African. Many believe that the first people were brown rather than dark, with tight curls but not naps/kinks, and medium features rather than broad/ full. Dark skin, broad/ full features and tight kinks were later adaptations (along with a host of variant features indigenous to Africa) to environment, plus these features were likely also sexually selected to an extent (like the articles that came out this past spring about blonde hair).

Its kind of pointless to argue the 'mixedness' of such ancient groups of people as are present in the Horn. Rarely have groups of people been fully cut off from other groups, and in this case the mixing between groups in the Nile region, Arabia, and East Africa would have been pretty much constant over the millenia. _So its difficult to determine who gave whom what_ since they've all been intermarrying forever (and geneticists haven't isolated yet where certain physical traits arose), and groups of people who went to North Africa, Arabia, south into the continent, or west in Central/ Western Africa never completely lost contact with where orginal man came from.

So its easier just to say that many Somali and Ethiopians have type 1-3 hair because that trait is very common amongst their people, and then just focus on their healthy hair habits. Though I've seen a number with type 4 hair.


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## ximenia (Jun 14, 2006)

i think some of us are mixing apples and oranges.

im referring to the misconception that east african features are derived from arabs. the belief that 3 hair and aquiline features arent original to the african genotype but are inhereted from middle easterners is a fallacy. the genetic studies do not point to a non-black origin for those features among east africans. the genes, however, have shown an african origin for middle easterners. in other words, arabs are descended from east africans. east africans are not descended from arabs. as the article that i posted above pointed out, *curly 3 hair is present in blacks where there is no genetic evidence of mixture with non-blacks. *that phenotype exists in pure africans. 



> On scrutinizing the region of mitochondrial sequence in Africans and Indians, Santachiara-Benerecetti and coworkers ruled out the possibility that the M haplogroups in eastern-African and Asian populations arose independently -- rather, *they have a common African origin. *These findings, together with the observation that the M haplogroup is virtually absent in Middle-Eastern populations, support the idea that there was a second route of migration out of Africa, approximately 60,000 years ago, exiting from eastern Africa along the coast towards Southeast Asia, Australia and the Pacific Islands.



http://www.nature.com/ng/press_release/ng1299.html

both middle easterners and indians are descended from east africans.

people keep mentioning who they are mixed with as a counter argument. no where have i stated that ethiopians/east africans in general did not intermarry with middle easterners. they are geographically close so its only plausable that relationships formed.

my challenge was to the assumption that those intermarriages resulted in the 3 hair that some east africans have. that phenotype is african, it is not the result of genetic admixture. 

genes tell the truth and what they reveal is often different from what oral tradition holds.


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## ximenia (Jun 14, 2006)

MissMarie said:
			
		

> So its easier just to say that many Somali and Ethiopians have type 1-3 hair because that trait is very common amongst their people, and then just focus on their healthy hair habits. Though I've seen a number with type 4 hair.


 
agreed....


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## Mestiza (Jun 14, 2006)

I found a thread, "Ethiopian Ladies" that does have a *few* hair care tips in it. I'll bump it!


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## foxybrownsugar (Jun 14, 2006)

bmoreflyygirl said:
			
		

> Yeah, I just took a class on African Civilization this past semester to finish up my African American studies minor. That was where he started. With the woman Eve's remains. I learned quite a bit. I really enjoyed the class. Sorry to hijack the thread guys! lol


You did learn alot, I wish I had taken a course like that in undergrad. All I have learned about African has been on my own via history channel, discovery channel, pbs, and the library.


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## foxybrownsugar (Jun 14, 2006)

Mestiza said:
			
		

> I found a thread, "Ethiopian Ladies" that does have a *few* hair care tips in it. I'll bump it!


thanx, this thread has been a very good read and I hope that there are no hard feelings. BTW, My mom said today, when she was a girl growing up down south they use to rub butter on there legs (she didn't mention hair). They were too poor to afford lotion and such, so, maybe eithopian women use ghee for the same reasons.


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## MissMarie (Jun 14, 2006)

ximenia said:
			
		

> people keep mentioning who they are mixed with as a counter argument. no where have i stated that ethiopians/east africans in general did not intermarry with middle easterners. they are geographically close so its only plausable that relationships formed.
> 
> my challenge was to the assumption that those intermarriages resulted in the 3 hair that some east africans have. that phenotype is african, it is not the result of genetic admixture.
> 
> genes tell the truth and what they reveal is often different from what oral tradition holds.



ITA, since East Africans were the first people it'd make more sense to talk about  how some Arabs are brown in complexion because of E African ancestry, but in reality trying to pin certain features as belonging to one group or another when they have intermingled so frequently for so long is impossible.

Most people know that the African American population contains some admixture. And we know that generally mixing with Euro-descended people results in a lighter range of complexions. Yet, that doesn't mean that any African American's complexion which isn't deep mahogany to blue black is because of their non-African ancestry, because if one looks at different West African populations there are medium complexions that are present there without European admixture (just as their are many with very high, defined cheekbones that many AA assume are an indigenous American trait only). So a person's medium complexion can be an inheritance from their African ancestors, as an East African's hair type can as likely be from their African as their Arab ancestors.


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## Shine-On (Jun 14, 2006)

I ooh and ahh over hair that is beautiful because I admire the effort (or lack thereof) it takes to keep it that way. You are absolutely right, I don't know any hair type that isn't beautiful or capable of being healthy when properly cared for. At the same time I acknowledge the extra care it takes to grow and maintain curlier textured hair and when I see a healthy head (whatever the race or nationality) I take notice. 

I think testimonies have proven that even with genes on our side, we still have to put forth an effort to reach our hair goals or maintain our hair's health. Whether that effort is protective styles, low maintenance, altering our diets/water intake/exercise routines or more frequent washing, it is always interesting and most times beneficial to share regimens and advice. Maybe I should have writted: I saw two women today. They had beautiful hair and they happened to be Ethiopian. 

When I returned home that day, I brainstormed a bit and questioned the hair practices of these women. Did their hair (some curly, some kinky) become dry at the ends due to their curl pattern? If so, did they oil them? Baggy them? What were they using for moisturizers and how often? Did they wash frequently or infrequently? What about tangles and deep conditioners? Did they have a line that was popular amongst them? Our discussions have included India, Haiti, DR, Jamaica, etc. Why not explore Ethiopia?

Jwhitley6, I think your hair is pretty (very). My next question is, what's your regimen? Same thing here . Cruzians (St. Croix) have lovely heads of locks and I admired them when I visited last year. I didn't hesitate to ask how they maintained them and took notice of the different eating habits during my stay (plus I was always hungry  ). It's all in the name of growth.


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## Shine-On (Jun 14, 2006)

foxybrownsugar said:
			
		

> thanx, this thread has been a very good read and I hope that there are no hard feelings. BTW, My mom said today, when she was a girl growing up down south they use to rub butter on there legs (she didn't mention hair). They were too poor to afford lotion and such, so, maybe eithopian women use ghee for the same reasons.


 
Thank you! I thank all others for the history lesson. I really enjoyed this post!


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## Mestiza (Jun 14, 2006)

foxybrownsugar said:
			
		

> thanx, this thread has been a very good read and I hope that there are no hard feelings. BTW, My mom said today, when she was a girl growing up down south they use to rub butter on there legs (she didn't mention hair). They were too poor to afford lotion and such, so, maybe eithopian women use ghee for the same reasons.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



YW! :wink2: ITA! This thread is very good and interesting! 

I had my hands on some ghee last week and put it back.  I mentioned it in general conversation to my mom (not African, though) and she said that my grandma has used it on her hair when she was younger.


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## diamoness (Jun 14, 2006)

um......4b's and c's have pretty hair too.  We just never get any credit.


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## DahomeyAhosi (Jun 14, 2006)

Wow I'm glad I'm not the only one who picked up on this.  It's amazing when people try to impose their generic book learning to people's very real experiences.



			
				KiniKakes said:
			
		

> With all due respect, Ximenia, how are you going to tell this girl about her _own_ ancestry?
> 
> I do agree w/much of what you are saying... and it's obvious that you have done your research about African history, which I can definitely appreciate and respect.  But I disagree w/you on this one. *shrug* Perhaps the key word in question is "given."  Regardless of "who gave what to whom," Somalian people are made up of Arabic and African ancestry. I have a few Somalian coworkers who have stated this as well. So essentially, yes, this would make them genetically "mixed".... even if the mixing of ancestry occured centuries back.


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## ximenia (Jun 14, 2006)

DahomeyAhosi said:
			
		

> Wow I'm glad I'm not the only one who picked up on this.  It's amazing when people try to impose their generic book learning to people's very real experiences.



wow, "generic book learning." is that a line from the beverly hillbillies? 

i wasnt expecting the conversation to deteriorate to that level. 

most of the interesting facts we've contributed to this thread, including kinikakes,  are the result of exposure and education or "generic book learning" as you call it. ive personally enjoyed this discussion as have others. there are quite a few knowledgeable sistas on this site and i hope they dont feel like they have to dumb it down (or keep their "book learnin" to themselves) in the future. sorry you felt the need to insult it. i personally think that conversations like this and knowing about our past is a good thing. i also see it as sharing rather than imposing.


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## punchinella (Jun 14, 2006)

I hope that I am not getting off the point by getting back to the original point.erplexed Shine On was admiring some beautiful hair and wanted to find out some of their practices. Not all Ethiopian women have beautiful long hair, no matter what your genetics, if you do not take care of your hair you will lose it. As one of the other posters said we are willing to take hair tips from East Indian women (like amla etc) and their hair is not even on the chart So why can't we do the same for our Ethiopian sisters whether their hair is naturally that way or not


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## MissMarie (Jun 14, 2006)

ximenia said:
			
		

> ive personally enjoyed this discussion as have others.
> 
> i personally think that conversations like this and knowing about our past is a good thing. i also see it as sharing rather than imposing.



I think that this was a nice conversation, and I did enjoy your posts Ximenia. We should be able to disagree here without stooping to insulting each other.

When you break it down all human groups are mixed, no one lives in complete isolation from others that can be labelled as different (ethnicity, race, culture). Quantifying degrees of mixedness barely makes any kind of sense in places like the US where you have people from completely different continents that came together at one point in time. So it makes even less sense in areas where groups have intermingled for over thousands of years, its hard to even strongly delineate which features belong to whom when the two separate groups of people actually _share many features_ (and genetics).

It's not trying to tell someone they're not mixed, its recognizing that its kind of pointless to argue which of two _very intermingled_ groups are responsible for type 2 and 3 hair in a certain population. Probably to some extent both are depending on the specific circumstances of specific groups of people and specific individuals like those posters have mentioned here. 

People in the Horn have hair from type 1 to type 4, some of that comes from their indigenous ancestors, some of it came from the those who left for SW Asia developed new traits and returned and intermingled, some of it comes from those who went further south and west into the continent developing new populations and new traits and returning to the Horn and intermingling with the regional populations there.

Until geneticists, bio anthropologists, archaelogists and such are able to isolate the genes responsible for certain outward physical traits and then map them we won't know for sure. 
And in a discussion about hair care tips it shouldn't really matter.


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## amara11 (Jun 14, 2006)

chocolatesis said:
			
		

> They do have beautiful hair. I'm not sure what their hair practices might be, but IMO it's probably mostly genetics. In my experience, most Ethiopians and Somalians tend to have hair that is more on the curly side. I used to date a guy from Somalia and he had hair that was kinky/curly, but his brother (different mother) had hair that was straight.


 
Exactly- from a Biological standpoint (the one im always takin cuz thats my major!) Its a lot about genetics. Im sure there are some with highly efficient regimes, but that's not an overall majority. We hate to hear this response sometimes but- sigh...... they're born with it!erplexed


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## Cheleigh (Jun 14, 2006)

punchinella said:
			
		

> I hope that I am not getting off the point by getting back to the original point.erplexed Shine On was admiring some beautiful hair and wanted to find out some of their practices. Not all Ethiopian women have beautiful long hair, no matter what your genetics, if you do not take care of your hair you will lose it. As one of the other posters said we are willing to take hair tips from East Indian women (like amla etc) and their hair is not even on the chart So why can't we do the same for our Ethiopian sisters whether their hair is naturally that way or not



I don't think you're off point. I think the challenge is that it seems that (from previous discussions on this topic) many Ethiopian women don't do much of anything at all to get beautiful long hair--I mean not outside of what many LHCF members already know to do:
-Keep hair natural
-If relaxed, do it infrequently
-Keep hair moisturized and/or strengthened
-Wear protective styles
-Ensure proper diet and nutrition

To me the bigger challenge seems to be that the "worse" our hair type, the more we try to do to it. Maybe that's the inherent problem--maybe it's not so much that type 1, 2, 3s are so much more genetically gifted than type 4s, but that type 4s try to push and prod our hair into some idealized look or behavior more than most other hair types--and as such, we suffer the consequences.

Oh, maybe that's the subject for another thread.


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## amara11 (Jun 14, 2006)

DahomeyAhosi said:
			
		

> Wow I'm glad I'm not the only one who picked up on this. It's amazing when people try to impose their generic book learning to people's very real experiences.


 
That's a really good way to describe what ppl do sometimes. It's like when some people (me being Nigerian/African) come to me and tell me about practices in Nigeria- based on what they read/saw heard. I appreciate that you took the time, but why not ask someone who's experienced it? IMO they're wayyyy better sources anyway. Good point!


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## amara11 (Jun 14, 2006)

Cheleigh said:
			
		

> I don't think you're off point. I think the challenge is that it seems that (from previous discussions on this topic) many Ethiopian women don't do much of anything at all to get beautiful long hair--I mean not outside of what many LHCF members already know to do:
> -Keep hair natural
> -If relaxed, do it infrequently
> -Keep hair moisturized and/or strengthened
> ...


 
I agree 200%. A LOT of the people that I know that have long hair- and have had it for a minute- happen to have very low maintenance routines... Keep in mind that by "low maintenance" i do not mean low care. It just means that the manipulation of the hair is lower. Ever wonder why guy's hair grows so fast when they keep it in cornrows? Its like weeds! They dont mess in their hair the way we do sometimes. Our bodies were blessed with the natural ability to function at optimum levels without the need for our own 2 cents (providing that we give them proper nourishment). Sometimes by trying to speed this up we interfere with this.


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## africa (Jun 14, 2006)

Cheleigh said:
			
		

> I don't think you're off point. I think the challenge is that it seems that (from previous discussions on this topic) many Ethiopian women don't do much of anything at all to get beautiful long hair--I mean not outside of what many LHCF members already know to do:
> -Keep hair natural
> -If relaxed, do it infrequently
> -Keep hair moisturized and/or strengthened
> ...



Good point.  I couldn't have phrased it better.


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## punchinella (Jun 15, 2006)

amara11 said:
			
		

> I agree 200%. A LOT of the people that I know that have long hair- and have had it for a minute- happen to have very low maintenance routines... Keep in mind that by "low maintenance" i do not mean low care. It just means that the manipulation of the hair is lower. Ever wonder why guy's hair grows so fast when they keep it in cornrows? Its like weeds! They dont mess in their hair the way we do sometimes. Our bodies were blessed with the natural ability to function at optimum levels without the need for our own 2 cents (providing that we give them proper nourishment). Sometimes by trying to speed this up we interfere with this.





ITA with both of you


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## amara11 (Jun 15, 2006)

ximenia said:
			
		

> wow, "generic book learning." is that a line from the beverly hillbillies?
> 
> i wasnt expecting the conversation to deteriorate to that level.
> 
> most of the interesting facts we've contributed to this thread, including kinikakes, are the result of exposure and education or "generic book learning" as you call it. ive personally enjoyed this discussion as have others. there are quite a few knowledgeable sistas on this site and i hope they dont feel like they have to dumb it down (or keep their "book learnin" to themselves) in the future. sorry you felt the need to insult it. i personally think that conversations like this and knowing about our past is a good thing. i also see it as sharing rather than imposing.


 
I dont believe she meant that those sistahs have to dumb it down (nor do I think she was being insulting). SHe's referring to the fact that a lot of times, "book knowledge"- i.e knowledge acquired from reading/researching NOT from any source of actual experience, is not as valuable as that which we can get from the ppl that the "book" is referring to. I gave an example in an earlier post but here's another. If you had a book about Mexico (more than likely written by a NONmexican), and you knew 5 mexican ppl from various parts of their country- wouldnt you trust their particular remarks about Mexico over the "book"? think about what some books say about black ppl- I'd rather have a white person come and ask me about my ppl,  than gathering their info from their own reading, research alone etc. 
thats my interpretation of what she was saying. Then again.... i could be wrong!


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## ximenia (Jun 15, 2006)

amara11 said:
			
		

> That's a really good way to describe what ppl do sometimes. It's like when some people (me being Nigerian/African) come to me and tell me about practices in Nigeria- based on what they read/saw heard. I appreciate that you took the time, but why not ask someone who's experienced it? IMO they're wayyyy better sources anyway. Good point!



i completely agree and i would never tell anyone from another culture that i know more about their cultural practices than they do based upon what was read in a book. no ones cultural practices were being challenged in this thread. on the contrary, people were seeking information about the hair care practices of ethiopians. the conversation veered into a discussion of the genetic origins of peoples which often tells a different story than what oral traditions relate. my statements centered on genetics, i made no comments about anyones cultural practices.


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## amara11 (Jun 15, 2006)

FlowerHair said:
			
		

> And about them being mixed with arabs etc, yes it's true, but have you thought about it the other way around? If they weren't mixed with Black African would their hair be so curly and coily and beautiful? As much as I appreciate Arab hair, *it's nothing compared to African hair*...  (I know many Arabs are also Africans, but you know what I mean)


 
I dont think it's necessary to put down their hair to build up our own (even tho u stated you "appreciate" it)- both types are beautiful in their own right. As far as whether their hair would be curly w/o Black African genetic influence- we can't make the assumption to either extreme of the possibilities- African hair is not the only inherently curly hair....


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## amara11 (Jun 15, 2006)

ximenia said:
			
		

> i completely agree and i would never tell anyone from another culture that i know more about their cultural practices than they do based upon what was read in a book. no ones cultural practices were being challenged in this thread. on the contrary, people were seeking information about the hair care practices of ethiopians. the conversation veered into a discussion of the genetic origins of peoples which often tells a different story than what oral traditions relate. my statements centered on genetics, i made no comments about anyones cultural practices.


 
And if you ask any sophisticated geneticist- even they do not have an answer as to how and where the genetic origins/ genotypes and phenotypes arose. Some have stong hypotheses (i.e Dr. Spencer Wells of the National GENOgraphic Project- the one attempting to tell interested individuals where their ancestry lies) however this is still hypothesis/theory. We often depreciate word of mouth and opt to place trust and value in science and what science says. But any scientist will tell you that the vast majority of the body of knowledge that we have gained with respect to science is _theory,_ i.e not fact, i.e yet to be _proven._  Therefore we would be remiss to uphold that which is claimed to be "genetic origin" as a higher value of reference than oral tradition- being that such genetic origins have yet to be scientifically proven. This coming from someone was _has_ done research in Genetic labs and worked with Geneticists- much of what we think we know, as of yet it is still theory.


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## amara11 (Jun 15, 2006)

ximenia said:
			
		

> the features we ascribe to africans (big nose/lips) are common among west africans. east and south africans have different features and those features were not acquired through 'mixing' they are present and original to the african genotype.
> 
> As someone of direct African descent, and as a scientist in the making (Cellular and molecular biology major) I have a few problems with this statement. Again, we do not know what *features* are the "original" african *genotype*. And the correct term for physically observable characteristics is "phenotype" not genotype. Genotype refers to genes- that which is inherited-not observed. Phenotype refers to the observable characteristics that the expression of the genotype yields.
> As an African. Africa is a continent-made up of countries. It is complex and no singular set of adjectives can be used to describe it. We dont mesh Canada and mexico into generalizations when we discuss America. We can't do that with Africa either. Not saying this is what you are doing, but to ascribe the features of the east and south africans and deem them as the african genotype- when there is presently no scientific basis for such an argument is improper. The African genotype (much less the varied phenotype) is too diverse to be classified using a singular term. So even if those phenotypes you were referring to are representative of East/ South Africa, or can be traced back _scientifically_ a few 1000 yrs ago (East Africa in and of itself being made of many countries) Their indigenous phenotypes can not be ascribed as the "African" phenotype (present or original). Does that make any sense. My point is that being that we dont have scientific proof of the origin, we cant make any assumptions as to what is was. That being the case, we cant ascribe the features of any particular region to be the (present or original) representations of the entire continent.


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## ximenia (Jun 15, 2006)

amara11 said:
			
		

> I dont believe she meant that those sistahs have to dumb it down (nor do I think she was being insulting). SHe's referring to the fact that a lot of times, "book knowledge"- i.e knowledge acquired from reading/researching NOT from any source of actual experience, is not as valuable as that which we can get from the ppl that the "book" is referring to. I gave an example in an earlier post but here's another. If you had a book about Mexico (more than likely written by a NONmexican), and you knew 5 mexican ppl from various parts of their country- wouldnt you trust their particular remarks about Mexico over the "book"? think about what some books say about black ppl- I'd rather have a white person come and ask me about my ppl,  than gathering their info from their own reading, research alone etc.
> thats my interpretation of what she was saying. Then again.... i could be wrong!



i agree. i have always put more merit in what a native historian has to say about their culture than what an outsider has to say.  i also look to black historians to give me an accurant portrayal of black history. 

as i noted above, my comments centered on genetics, i havent challenged anyones *cultural practices* in any way in this thread.


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## ximenia (Jun 15, 2006)

amara11 said:
			
		

> ximenia said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Isis (Jun 15, 2006)

Mestiza said:
			
		

> I found a thread, "Ethiopian Ladies" that does have a *few* hair care tips in it. I'll bump it!


Thank you Mestiza for bumping the thread.  I enjoyed reading what the LHCF Ethiopian ladies and LHCF members from other African countries had to say.


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## amara11 (Jun 15, 2006)

ximenia said:
			
		

> amara11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Tru_Mind (Jun 15, 2006)

jwhitley6 said:
			
		

> Of course hair can benefit from various products used by the different cultures.  I think the issue causing some of the dissent is that most likely, Ethiopian hair is just naturally that way (without much help from products). * If that's the case, then why ooh and awe over it, since all hair types are beautiful when properly cared for.*





I agree with you. 

When I read this thread...well some of it, because I was saying "OMG here we go again." Yep, I knew what was causing this thread to turn, but I just didn't want to go into it...not anymore. 

My point was why should these things matter? I don't understand what's wrong with saying that Ethiopians have gorgeous hair. You know? It's nothing like saying look at these bi-racial people with gorgeous hair. It's just not the same. 

Anyway, if a group of people are mixed or not...it does not matter to me. So what...its hair. 

A couple of years ago I watched The Real Eve Video and before that I read about the topic, and from my understanding their hair and features are naturally theirs. It has to do with migration, climate change and adaptations to different climates. I know that itâ€™s hard to believe that Africans can have curly hair â€¦or even straight hair. It has to do with where Ethiopia, Egypt, Somalia, Eritrea, Morocco, etc is located. I canâ€™t remember how long it takes for the changes to occur, but it takes thousands of years. It's too much for me to explain. I see some have attempted to explain on this thread. I've tried and others have tried to explain this once before on this board...it's just too much to explain.

I know someone that didnâ€™t know that Morocco was in Africa. I donâ€™t know where they thought it was. They said Moroccans donâ€™t look African.

My answer is yes Ethiopians mix...just like most races do. Mixing is not what makes their hair look the way that it does. According to the research their hair and features are naturally theirs...PERIOD. I know that you're wondering if they mix than how is it that their hair and features are naturally theirs. 



			
				amara11 said:
			
		

> "Certain features are recognized as belonging to certain groups."


They are many books on this topic that explains so much more. I agree with you too amara. 

I just don't get it. I know that if you ask some Ethiopians what they are mixed with they will say "nothing." Why Africans have to be mixed to have curly hair? 

On the old thread India was brought up. Indians come in really dark to light shades. To me they *can* look like Africans with straight black hair. Why Ethiopians can not naturally look the way that they do if Indians can. So...I guess the dark Indians are mixed with Africans...right? Nope.




-tru


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## FlowerHair (Jun 15, 2006)

If you go back far enough EVERYONE is African. 

Ethiopians may be mixed a thousand years ago, but what group of people isn't? Only those who lived on an island with no means of leaving and no one to visit them. We have dark people here in Sweden that are mixed with Belgian immigrants that came here in the 16:th century. They are no less Swedish just because they don't have the typical Blond hair and blue eyes.

Mixed Africans live in *every *African country. They can be mixed recently or in ancient history. If you go back 100-1000 years, people along the coasts on both sides of Africa are mixed with Arab, Portuguese, British, German, you name it. People who live on the border to Arab countries are mixed. 

I know a woman from Kenya who has type 1 hair because her family has been mixed in the past with Arab. So what? She is 100% African anyway, the same way that many of you on this web site are 100% American. If you have lived in a place for 400+ years where else can you belong other than the place you were born? My colleague is from Africa, says she is of Portuguese heritage but looks completely East Indian. She's probably a little bit of each. 
Africans are not only blacks south of Sahara, Africans are everyone that lives in Africa, including white people


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## foxybrownsugar (Jun 15, 2006)

I have a degree in biology also. And scientists do have different theories but the evidence found so far all points to the origins of life beginning around the nile-tigris-euprhates rivers. "certain features are recognized as belonging to certain groups" cannot be proven because we all know that genes can be carried but not expressed (phenotype). Scientists have always argued over origins i.e "creation vs. evolution" there has always been two schools of thought. The debate is neverending...

I just wanted to add that scientists are using mitochondrial DNA to help trace ppl ancestors too.


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## Mahalialee4 (Jun 15, 2006)

Perhaps we could post this on an "anthropology thread", lol. I just want to hear some more about hair care. Can we just agree that we all love long healthy beautiful hair as women of color regardless from what part of the earth those colors come from and the bottom line is "what can we learn from their hair care, regimes, practices that we can apply to our own hair and scalp to maximize the natural beauty of our own hair...after all, isn't that really what these ladies, Ethiopians, Indians etc. do? Maximize the beauty, strength and health of their hair and scalps?   peace. bonjour


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## sassyhair (Jun 15, 2006)

Mahalialee4 said:
			
		

> Perhaps we could post this on an "anthropology thread", lol. I just want to hear some more about hair care. Can we just agree that we all love long healthy beautiful hair as women of color regardless from what part of the earth those colors come from and the bottom line is "what can we learn from their hair care, regimes, practices that we can apply to our own hair and scalp to maximize the natural beauty of our own hair...after all, isn't that really what these ladies, Ethiopians, Indians etc. do? Maximize the beauty, strength and health of their hair and scalps?   peace. bonjour



Amen....when reading this post I felt like I was part of a congregation hearing a sunday sermon. Back to the regularly scheduled posting...please!


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## DragonPearl (Jun 15, 2006)

Mahalialee4 said:
			
		

> *Perhaps we could post this on an "anthropology thread", lol. I just want to hear some more about hair care. *Can we just agree that we all love long healthy beautiful hair as women of color regardless from what part of the earth those colors come from and the bottom line is "what can we learn from their hair care, regimes, practices that we can apply to our own hair and scalp to maximize the natural beauty of our own hair...after all, isn't that really what these ladies, Ethiopians, Indians etc. do? Maximize the beauty, strength and health of their hair and scalps? peace. bonjour



Me too!!!   

Shoot, next time I see an Ethiopian woman with hair I admire, I'll ask her about her hair regimen.  Who knows, I might learn something...


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## BrownSkin2 (Jun 15, 2006)

Tru_Mind, I saw that video too.  I remember the narrator saying that it takes 20,000 years for the features and hair to change.  The farther natives moved away from the equator, the more their features changed.


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## Lusa (Jun 15, 2006)

tru_mind said:
			
		

> When I read this thread...well some of it, because I was saying "OMG here we go again." Yep, I knew what was causing this thread to turn, but I just didn't want to go into it...not anymore.
> 
> My point was why should these things matter? I don't understand what's wrong with saying that Ethiopians have gorgeous hair. You know? It's nothing like saying look at these bi-racial people with gorgeous hair. It's just not the same.
> 
> ...


 
I see where you're coming from and I agree. The reason that I was first leery about this topic is how it seemed to headed in the "jump on the band wagon" route with respects to Ethiopian women's hair. And I think it has been helpful for us to have this discussion educating each other that some hair really doesn't need a lot of manipulation and "regimens" to look like it does. It would be sad to see some members start applying cow dung or coochie cream to their hair based on what they may have heard is traditionally practiced by Ethiopians. (that is just an extreme example just to illustrate my point and not a commentary on anyone in particular)

It is good to get ideas as to what different people and cultures do with hair to maintain it's health but at that time each person should be aware that his/her hair will not necessarily look like another's because of our different genetic make up. One just has to look at how different we all are even as black people. 


I am outtie...


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## amara11 (Jun 15, 2006)

tru_mind said:
			
		

> I agree with you.
> 
> When I read this thread...well some of it, because I was saying "OMG here we go again." Yep, I knew what was causing this thread to turn, but I just didn't want to go into it...not anymore.
> 
> ...


 
In regards to my quote- the one about certain features- that's what is done with regards to "race" by ppl in non-science related fields/ the general human population. That is not my own opinion about how race is determined.  And about dark indians being mixed with Africans- who knows what everyone is mixed we- some may be some may not be. Were u saying that my point of view reflects that ethiopians can't look that way naturally? Im not sure if the last portion of your post was a question for me....... If so, i didnt really understand your argument b/c im not disagreeing with that. All of my arguments are surrounded by the scientific means by which we uses DNA, genes, etc to determine phenotypes attributed to individuals.

And to Foxy:
mitochondrial DNA (since that's what can be traced to the mother) is indeed used to find ancestors/origins. I dont get your argument either. you have a degree in biology so Im sure you understand the nessecity to distinguish between scientific fact/ theory/ and hypothesis. And im also sure that you understand that evidence- does not always equate fact. What some scientist deem as proof for one phenomena may be indeed proof of something else that they have yet to discover. It happens everyday w/ science and the things we know today to be "fact" can easily be proven wrong in the future. My argument is for the need to keep theories and facts separate and for the need to understand the sensitive differences b/t the two. About us starting in Africa- this is more than likely true- im not negating that, and my argument has nothing to with creationism vs. evolution either. But the scientists themselves who created these theories will not tell you that this phenomena is fact yet- even with their "evidence" they cannot come to such a conclusion. Again- look up Dr. Spencer Wells as an example ( the guy with the theory of one ancestor, working on the Human Genographic project) He has a lot a theories that sound pretty solid- but even he will be quick to tell u that they are indeed theories.


----------



## amara11 (Jun 15, 2006)

foxybrownsugar said:
			
		

> I have a degree in biology also. And scientists do have different theories but the evidence found so far all points to the origins of life beginning around the nile-tigris-euprhates rivers. "*certain features are recognized as belonging to certain groups"* cannot be proven because we all know that genes can be carried but not expressed (phenotype). Scientists have always argued over origins i.e "creation vs. evolution" there has always been two schools of thought. The debate is neverending...
> 
> I just wanted to add that scientists are using mitochondrial DNA to help trace ppl ancestors too.


 
Again, please read my entire post b/fore you quote that statment. If you do, you will see that that is NOT MY OPINION!!!!! This is the way that nonscientists refer to race. This is not what I believe race to be- i was trying to give a comparison b/t the scientific basis for race- and what the general population believes race to be and how they go about defining it.


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## foxybrownsugar (Jun 15, 2006)

amara11 said:
			
		

> In regards to my quote- the one about certain features- that's what is done with regards to "race" by ppl in non-science related fields/ the general human population. That is not my own opinion about how race is determined.  And about dark indians being mixed with Africans- who knows what everyone is mixed we- some may be some may not be. Were u saying that my point of view reflects that ethiopians can't look that way naturally? Im not sure if the last portion of your post was a question for me....... If so, i didnt really understand your argument b/c im not disagreeing with that. All of my arguments are surrounded by the scientific means by which we uses DNA, genes, etc to determine phenotypes attributed to individuals.
> 
> And to Foxy:
> mitochondrial DNA (since that's what can be traced to the mother) is indeed used to find ancestors/origins. I dont get your argument either. you have a degree in biology so Im sure you understand the nessecity to distinguish between scientific fact/ theory/ and hypothesis. And im also sure that you understand that evidence- does not always equate fact. What some scientist deem as proof for one phenomena may be indeed proof of something else that they have yet to discover. *It happens everyday w/ science and the things we know today to be "fact" can easily be proven wrong in the future.* My argument is for the need to keep theories and facts separate and for the need to understand the sensitive differences b/t the two. About us starting in Africa- this is more than likely true- im not negating that, and my argument has nothing to with creationism vs. evolution either. But the scientists themselves who created these theories will not tell you that this phenomena is fact yet- even with their "evidence" they cannot come to such a conclusion. Again- look up Dr. Spencer Wells as an example ( the guy with the theory of one ancestor, working on the Human Genographic project) He has a lot a theories that sound pretty solid- *but even he will be quick to tell u that they are indeed theories.*



This is so true and vice versus things that weren't believed are proven true all the time. And I wasn't arguing about mitochondrial DNA, I was just showing techniques scientist are using to prove theories.


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## foxybrownsugar (Jun 15, 2006)

amara11 said:
			
		

> Again, please read my entire post b/fore you quote that statment. If you do, you will see that that is NOT MY OPINION!!!!! This is the way that nonscientists refer to race. This is not what I believe race to be- i was trying to give a comparison b/t the scientific basis for race- and what the general population believes race to be and how they go about defining it.


Ok now I now where you are coming from. Your post was a bit lengthy and a little hard to understand. Or maybe it was the screen being so wide that confused me?  but like I said in science debates are never ending...


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## Tru_Mind (Jun 15, 2006)

amara11 said:
			
		

> In regards to my quote- the one about certain features- that's what is done with regards to "race" by ppl in non-science related fields/ the general human population. That is not my own opinion about how race is determined.  And about dark indians being mixed with Africans- who knows what everyone is mixed we- some may be some may not be. Were u saying that my point of view reflects that ethiopians can't look that way naturally? Im not sure if the last portion of your post was a question for me....... If so, i didnt really understand your argument b/c im not disagreeing with that. All of my arguments are surrounded by the scientific means by which we uses DNA, genes, etc to determine phenotypes attributed to individuals.



I thought that I deleted your qoute...but now I see that I didn't. I see why is looks as if I was questioning you. No, I was not questioning you...I originally used your quote to explain...I just failed to delete it. Sorry!



			
				amara11 said:
			
		

> "Certain features are recognized as belonging to certain groups."


I agree with your quote. I am arleady familiar with everything that you are staying...I agree. My point was according to research Ethiopians naturally look that way.

Sorry I need fix my post... your quote does not make since being there. I was not questioning you at all. I totally agree with you.

About the dark Indians I meant that they don't have to be mixed with Africans to be dark. It's just something that happened naturally. I do understand that people mix now and have mixed years ago. I believe that those who don't understand should read the reseach, because explaining bits at a time can be confusing...because there is always another question.
You see we are are the same page here.
-tru


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## Tru_Mind (Jun 15, 2006)

FlowerHair said:
			
		

> If you go back far enough EVERYONE is African.
> 
> Ethiopians may be mixed a thousand years ago, but what group of people isn't? Only those who lived on an island with no means of leaving and no one to visit them. We have dark people here in Sweden that are mixed with Belgian immigrants that came here in the 16:th century. They are no less Swedish just because they don't have the typical Blond hair and blue eyes.
> 
> ...


I agree, and I say this every time on this thread..."so what" when it comes to this mixed/not mixed type of topic. This is like someone telling me that I'm not a Black/African American, because my family mixed 100 years ago. Believe me I have been told this before. 

It's like going to Ethiopia and seeing their curly hair and features and then saying, "Ok...now where are the real Ethiopians." They are the real Ethiopians too. 

The White Africans are going to look totally different thousands of years from now. Naturally, they are going to adapt to the climate.

Ethiopiansâ€™ hair and features are genetically inherited features. Their hair and features *naturally * became theirs no matter how it was naturally done. 

It is possible that Ethiopians could have migrated back to Africa from another part of the world and....well you know the rest. They could have come from Arab countriesâ€¦or maybe they were Caucasian once before. Just me thinking out loud.

We need to stop separating groups of people the way that we do.

-tru


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## foxybrownsugar (Jun 15, 2006)

I wish I could get one of my friends to join (she is AA). She just graduated with a P.H.D in genetics but all her interests are academic and rarely watches television and never chats on message boards.


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## amara11 (Jun 15, 2006)

I hear you Tru_mind and Foxybrownsugar - I have trouble abbreviating my posts sometimes, so I think in trying to explain in detail- i ending losing ppl. I enjoyed the discussion though!


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## DahomeyAhosi (Jun 15, 2006)

Actually it was not at all an insult.  Generic just means generalized.  And you've mentioned several times over that your information comes from written sources.  Hence generic book learning.  The East African ladies who've come into this thread have confirmed that they have significant Arab admixture.  Most Africans find it reasonable that most of their physical features come from this  admixture.  What caused my response is the fact that you were saying basic things about East Africans to an East African.  In general Africans know more about Africans than any others and it was not at all clear why your were doing this. I'm not sure what a Beverly hillbillies is but I am African. Africans generally don't need to know what you've learned out of a book about us. However I'm here to learn hair tips so this will be my last post to you on this topic.



			
				ximenia said:
			
		

> wow, "generic book learning." is that a line from the beverly hillbillies?
> 
> i wasnt expecting the conversation to deteriorate to that level.
> 
> most of the interesting facts we've contributed to this thread, including kinikakes,  are the result of exposure and education or "generic book learning" as you call it. ive personally enjoyed this discussion as have others. there are quite a few knowledgeable sistas on this site and i hope they dont feel like they have to dumb it down (or keep their "book learnin" to themselves) in the future. sorry you felt the need to insult it. i personally think that conversations like this and knowing about our past is a good thing. i also see it as sharing rather than imposing.


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## DahomeyAhosi (Jun 15, 2006)

Exactly. I'm from Benin and can fully relate.  



			
				amara11 said:
			
		

> That's a really good way to describe what ppl do sometimes. It's like when some people (me being Nigerian/African) come to me and tell me about practices in Nigeria- based on what they read/saw heard. I appreciate that you took the time, but why not ask someone who's experienced it? IMO they're wayyyy better sources anyway. Good point!


----------



## punchinella (Jun 15, 2006)

Mahalialee4 said:
			
		

> Perhaps we could post this on an "anthropology thread", lol. I just want to hear some more about hair care. Can we just agree that we all love long healthy beautiful hair as women of color regardless from what part of the earth those colors come from and the bottom line is "what can we learn from their hair care, regimes, practices that we can apply to our own hair and scalp to maximize the natural beauty of our own hair...after all, isn't that really what these ladies, Ethiopians, Indians etc. do? Maximize the beauty, strength and health of their hair and scalps?   peace. bonjour





Thank you Mahalialee4. Very well said


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## MissMarie (Jun 16, 2006)

DahomeyAhosi said:
			
		

> Actually it was not at all an insult.  Generic just means generalized.  And you've mentioned several times over that your information comes from written sources.  Hence generic book learning.  The East African ladies who've come into this thread have confirmed that they have significant Arab admixture.  Most Africans find it reasonable that most of their physical features come from this  admixture.  What caused my response is the fact that you were saying basic things about East Africans to an East African.  In general Africans know more about Africans than any others and it was not at all clear why your were doing this.
> 
> Africans generally don't need to know what you've learned out of a book about us.



No offense, but your post did come across as kind of insulting especially since posters were debating over issues of *biology, bio anthropology and genetics*, areas where book-learning forms the base of one's knowledge.

I can see how someone could get insulted in this convo, but we're *not arguing cultural practices or ethnic history*, the debate is over which physical characteristics are typical of _entire_ groups of people and how those groups acquired them. Personal stories are helpful and provide clues but that deals with the micro rather than the macro view.

Most AA think no one knows us better than we know ourselves, and this is true in terms of culture and history but doesn't always pan out when it comes to biological issues like health and medicine, and genetics. Many AA believe they are mixed with indigenous Americans, they attribute their complexion, cheekbones and hair types to this admixture, but studies using genetics have shown that the amount of indigenous ancestry in the general AA population is barely significant (though there are groups and regions with significant admixture). One also can't be certain which features on any given AA _individual_ are a result of the mixed ancestry (Euro) in the general population, or whether the feature arises solely from that person's African ancestry (given that West and Central Africa are so very diverse).

 So if people can be wrong with assumptions about _where_ and _from whom_ certain characteristics made it into an ethnic group that is only a few centuries old, it is massively more difficult to assign physical characteristics among groups of people that are millenia old and have been _consistently intermingling_ the entire time.



			
				amara11 said:
			
		

> Again, we do not know what *features* are the "original" african *genotype*. And the correct term for physically observable characteristics is "phenotype" not genotype. Genotype refers to genes- that which is inherited-not observed. Phenotype refers to the observable characteristics that the expression of the genotype yields.



so if we don't know the exact genotype of the original people, how can we separate out who gave which group what physical characteristics?
the trait could be indigenous to the original people there, it could have arisen within the group later as an adaptation, or it could have been introduced into the group from populations which originally left the continent.
we just don't know when it comes to *group traits*.

and it really shouldn't matter since the moral of the haircare story is that to have healthy hair one should keep one's hair *clean and well moisturized*, and to *minimize heat, chemicals and manipulation*.




edited for clarity, hopefully


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## amara11 (Jun 16, 2006)

MissMarie said:
			
		

> No offense, but your post did come across as kind of insulting especially since posters were debating over issues of *biology, bio anthropology and genetics*, areas where book-learning forms the base of one's knowledge.
> 
> I can see how someone could get insulted in this convo, but we're *not arguing cultural practices or ethnic history*, the debate is over which physical characteristics are typical of _entire_ groups of people and how those groups acquired them. Personal stories are helpful and provide clues but that deals with the micro rather than the macro view.
> 
> ...


 
I was one of the main ppl discussing the biological/genetic standpoint and I wasnt offended. There's a difference between scientific book knowledge being used to creat hypotheses and theories that may be proven one day and using the research you gained about some country to tell someone *from* that country about what *they* already know from *experience.* I believe Dahomey was referring to that- i dont think she was disregarding all book knowledge. I believe ppl are getting confused when we use that term-- though I dont know a better term for it. The two of us (as Africans, as ppl, as what have you) are saying that experience and living something is different from reading about it, or learning about it from some source that is NOT based on actual experience. This description we are using cannot be applied to science or medicine- --------We were referring to individuals (non- East African) telling native East Africans about their own ancestry, practices, mixing. We were not referring to anything else.

 When you say *we just dont know when it comes to group traits*--- (after posting my quote) that was my argument, so  I do not understand what your question is asking, (or whether you were even asking me or simply re-iterating).............


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## sweetascocoa (Jun 16, 2006)

please not everyone is mixed. i know im not 

Dahomey, ITA with your posts above


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## MissMarie (Jun 16, 2006)

amara11 said:
			
		

> I was one of the main ppl discussing the biological/genetic standpoint and I wasnt offended. There's a difference between scientific book knowledge being used to creat hypotheses and theories that may be proven one day and using the research you gained about some country to tell someone *from* that country about what *they* already know from *experience.* I believe Dahomey was referring to that- i dont think she was disregarding all book knowledge. I believe ppl are getting confused when we use that term-- though I dont know a better term for it. The two of us (as Africans, as ppl, as what have you) are saying that experience and living something is different from reading about it, or learning about it from some source that is NOT based on actual experience. This description we are using cannot be applied to science or medicine- --------We were referring to individuals (non- East African) telling native East Africans about their own ancestry, practices, mixing. We were not referring to anything else.
> 
> When you say *we just dont know when it comes to group traits*--- (after posting my quote) that was my argument, so  I do not understand what your question is asking, (or whether you were even asking me or simply re-iterating).............




I was simply reiterating your argument and using it to back up the point I believe Ximenia was trying to make. You and some other ladies here are arguing personal ancestries, I am arguing ethnic origins. There's a big difference. One relies on the highly useful genealogies of individual families, the other eventually must make *use of biology which is scientific book-learning*. Yes an individual knows best where the family is from and what their family is made up of. But that still doesn't solve the debate of whether non-type 4 hair appearing among East Africans as a group is solely a result of intermixing with Arabs or whether the presence of this trait is because its indigenous to East African populations and Arab intermixing simply further reinforced the trait in that population. 

To find out whether certain traits are indigenous to a certain millenia old population or brought in from another group one must use science, and no offense, but personal ancestries aren't enough to tell us that 3,000 years ago (or however long) EAs had type 4b hair until semetic Arab traders, businessmen and such mixed with them to create type 2 and 3 hair.

We're not really in disagreement here. I agree that we can't determine how certain group traits came to be in a population, I agree that outsiders can't dictate to people their culture and family history, and I agree that as the cradle of humanity Africa is incredibly diverse and to limit its people to just a few stereotyped traits is asinine. I was simply supporting what another poster  was explaining: that just because individuals have a certain trait because they are mixed do not mean that the *presence of that trait in the greater population* is solely because group A mixed with group B, human social history and genetics are much more complicated than that.

(some AA have high cheekbones because of their indigenous American ancestry but that doesn't mean all AAs with that trait have it because of their mixed ancestry, for most they likely get that trait from their African ancestry. Stating that fact isn't negating that for certain individuals the features come specifically from being 'mixed')


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## amara11 (Jun 16, 2006)

MissMarie said:
			
		

> I was simply reiterating your argument and using it to back up the point I believe Ximenia was trying to make. *You and some other ladies here are arguing personal ancestries, I am arguing ethnic origins.* There's a big difference. One relies on the highly useful genealogies of individual families, the other eventually must make *use of biology which is scientific book-learning*. Yes an individual knows best where the family is from and what their family is made up of. But that still doesn't solve the debate of whether non-type 4 hair appearing among East Africans as a group is solely a result of intermixing with Arabs or whether the presence of this trait is because its indigenous to East African populations and Arab intermixing simply further reinforced the trait in that population.
> 
> To find out whether certain traits are indigenous to a certain millenia old population or brought in from another group one must use science, and no offense, but *personal ancestries aren't enough to tell us that 3,000 years ago (or however long) EAs had type 4b hair until semetic Arab traders, businessmen and such mixed with them to create type 2 and 3 hair*.
> 
> We're not really in disagreement here. I agree that we can't determine how certain group traits came to be in a population, I agree that outsiders can't dictate to people their culture and family history, and I agree that as the cradle of humanity Africa is incredibly diverse and to limit its people to just a few stereotyped traits is asinine. I was simply supporting what another poster was explaining: that just because individuals have a certain trait because they are mixed do not mean that the *presence of that trait in the greater population* is solely because group A mixed with group B, human social history and genetics are much more complicated than that.


 
Ok, we're clearly not on the same page. I am _not _arguing personal ancestries alone. My argument was in reference to genetic inheritance on the basis of divergence and the evolution of man. Personal ancestries- is lineage- and I may have referred to it in one of my posts *(to prove my greater point)* but that was not the essence of my entire argument. If you read all of my posts, in their entirety, from the beginning you will see this. They are long, and therefore many ppl are reading the lines that they want to and taking them out of context- which is why i keep having to go back and reiterating, and why ppl then come back after reading again- stating they see what Im saying. You dont have to agree with me, b/c I am not arguing my own personal opinion- I was providing the difference between how SCIENTISTS operate, and how ppl formulate their own believe systems, culturally accepted norms, and dogmas in regards to race and ethnicity- terms that ppl throw around often- without paying attention to their actual definitions. For example we use 'race' everyday, but few realize that biologically- there has yet to be a distinct methodology for the characterization of races.

And "*personal ancestries aren't enough to tell us that 3,000 years ago (or however long) EAs had type 4b hair until semetic Arab traders, businessmen and such mixed with them to create type 2 and 3 hair*." Who said that it was? Again, this was not my argument- so I cant even address this.

 And then you stated "*You and some other ladies here are arguing personal ancestries, I am arguing ethnic origins.* There's a big difference. One relies on the highly useful genealogies of individual families, the other eventually must make *use of biology which is scientific book-learning*."

Wow, even if personal ancestries *was* actually my argument- again- ppl too often confuse the terms race, ethnicity, heritage, blah blah blah. 
Genealogies- i.e (compiled by creatiing phylogenetic trees, involve genes and are based on scientific experimentation and deduction. Ethnicity is ethnic character, background, or affiliation.!!! 

And I can't believe I am explaining what we meant about book-learning *again!*
We were referring to *experience being the best teacher*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  That is IT. Please look back at ALL of the quotes in reference to this- you are taking it out of context in comparison to the entire comment. We were replying to someones statement made even before I got into the argument about science, genetics, and cellular and molecular biology. I made more than one statement with various examples BEFORE MY ARGUMENT ABOUT GENETICS TOOK PLACE.

I have no issues with book learning in its literal sense- Im almost in medical school- if I did, I wouldnt be where I am!

So the "scientific book learning" that you quoted- does not even pertain to my or Dahomey's argument b/c neither of us was referring to that, so it's unfair to tack your own word in front of the NON-LITERAL symbol that we used. "book-learning" was representative of when ppl do their own research about something- (i.e african food) and then proceed to tell the african about their own native food- when the african is the one who knows it from experience. It was not fair for you to make your statement about "scientific book learning" because we never even mentioned "scientific" and the term book-learning (as we have now tried to explain at least a dozen times) was NOT LITERAL! 

If you have any further questions, please feel free to pm, b/c as more and more ppl come in after the original points of the *different* arguments, they are getting lost and confused and taking things ENTIRELY out of context and many ppl are having to explain themselves over and over again- making this entire thread pretty redundant. SO I do apologize to all the ppl who have heard my arguments TOO MANY TIMES TO COUNT!!!

I took the time to read all 11 pages before making my comment- I wanted to know what the different arguments were referring to b4 I starting making my own points.


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## amara11 (Jun 16, 2006)

And to bring it back to hair- I just saw your album and your hair is inCREDible....


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## MissMarie (Jun 17, 2006)

amara11 said:
			
		

> I was providing the difference between how SCIENTISTS operate, and how ppl formulate their own believe systems, culturally accepted norms, and dogmas in regards to race and ethnicity- terms that ppl throw around often- without paying attention to their actual definitions.



I agree, this is basically what was brought up before you entered the thread. Since I'm not in biology I couldn't go into detailed, informed explanations.



			
				amara11 said:
			
		

> And personal ancestries aren't enough to tell us that 3,000 years ago (or however long) EAs had type 4b hair until semetic Arab traders, businessmen and such mixed with them to create type 2 and 3 hair." Who said that it was? Again, this was not my argument- so I cant even address this.


 you didn't argue this, this is what other posters originally debated this response was not aimed at you in any way, just general info for debate



			
				amara11 said:
			
		

> Genealogies- i.e (compiled by creatiing phylogenetic trees, involve genes and are based on scientific experimentation and deduction.


 I don't have a bio background (i'm cultural anthro, so i know what ethnicity is), so I was actually referring to this more mundane definition: A record or table of the descent of a person, family, or group from an ancestor or ancestors; a family tree. The study or investigation of ancestry and family histories. Which clearly is more limited in time-scale and can involve little to no scientifc knowledge (natural sciences). *running off to look up _phylogeny_*



			
				amara11 said:
			
		

> I took the time to read all 11 pages before making my comment- I wanted to know what the different arguments were referring to b4 I starting making my own points.



I also read this entire thread. This is why i said we aren't in disagreement here. I was simply defending a poster who words I believed were being misconstrued.


> i'm sure there was geographical exchanges but somalian type 3 hair and features weren't  'given' to them by the arabs.


Two posters responded to this statement saying that this poster was out of line, that she was basically telling the woman that she was wrong about her own personal ancestry when _to me_ the poster was clearly referring to population traits which aren't proven or disproven simply by individual circumstances. Then people responded with comments about cultural practices. To me the comment had _nothing to do with culture/ethnicity_, it was instead focusing on tracing physical features and assigning their origin to different groups, something that we all only heard about through books as opposed to cultural practices which are learned about through observation, interviewing and such.
I agree with the basic statement that poster was making, that looser hair types aren't a 'mixed' or Arab trait (referring to entire populations _not individuals_), regardless of whether it came from intermingling populations or was indigenous to those populations after having certain features within the population all this time we can just say its one of many Ethiopian outward physical traits.

The only difference of opinion seems to be in how we interpreted one posters words.


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## MissMarie (Jun 17, 2006)

amara11 said:
			
		

> And to bring it back to hair- I just saw your album and your hair is inCREDible....



Thanks. 
Are you transitioning? If so welcome to the club, you've got a good start with all that healthy hair.

(i'm oughtie, now that i've assisted in killing this thread with my long @$$ posts)


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## amara11 (Jun 17, 2006)

MissMarie said:
			
		

> Thanks.
> Are you transitioning? If so welcome to the club, you've got a good start with all that healthy hair.
> 
> (i'm oughtie, now that i've assisted in killing this thread with my long @$$ posts)


 
Me too.
 And yes Im transitioning! (ten months @ the end of June).....


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## CurleeDST (Sep 10, 2006)

OT what is considered sea vegetables?



			
				Isis said:
			
		

> I understand where you are coming from Jwhitley and KiniKakes.  For me though, I can see how their Ethiopian foods or hair techniques can assist in making my 4b hair look like healthier, prettier 4b hair.
> 
> For example, this is part of why I enjoy eating lots of sea vegetables.  Besides being more of an Asian food staple (which I find delicious ), it also bring more beauty to hair, mainly from the iodine and other naturally occurring minerals and vitamins.  And Asian hair for the most part is greatly admired and beautiful enough to be made into weaves for Americans.  I enjoy my sea veggies knowing I won't have type 1 or 2b Asian hair, but I'll sure have healthier 4b hair.
> 
> ...


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## poetist (Sep 10, 2006)

CurleeDST said:
			
		

> OT what is considered sea vegetables?


 
Various types of seaweed: kelp, sea palm, nori, hijiki, arame, wakame, kombu, etc


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## Mahalialee4 (Sep 11, 2006)

I notice that they tend to stick to their own culture and language, customs etc. they do not from my personal observation, socially intermingle like the Nigerians, Ghanians etc. who will marry outside their cultures. But that is just my opinion. However, I believe that this is the reason they are able to maintain that certain hair look, texture etc. If they were to start intermarrying with the African Americans, the texture of their offspring would gradually change, and if they intermarried with whites or Asians, or East Indians their hair texture would change. Bonjour


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## CurleeDST (Jan 18, 2007)

I know they have gorgeous hair.  Thi swoman looks ethiopian to me:









			
				Shine-On said:
			
		

> Have beautiful hair!
> 
> I was standing behind a lady yesterday at lunch and I can't stop thinking about how healthy her hair was. It was simply styled (braid-out). Another walked in shortly after her and wore her hair blowdried and pinned up in the back. Both were at brastrap length. Their hair texture is kinky but so thick and healthy. For the most part, the most I see them doing to their strands are color applications. I am wondering about their diet. Does anyone know anything about of their hair practices?


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## czyfaith77 (Jan 20, 2007)

Here is another Ethiopian.  Those of you who watched General Hospital in the late nintiesmay remeber her as Keesha Ward.  Her name is Senait Ashenafi. (I will try to find a better picture of her.) She is from Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.

http://aolsearcht3.search.aol.com/aolcom/redir?src=image&clickedItemURN=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geocities.com%2FTelevisionCity%2FSatellite%2F5989%2Fashenafisenait.JPG&moduleId=image_details.jsp.M&clickedItemDescription=Image Details


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## Miss*Tress (Jan 21, 2007)

Sorry to continue the off-topic discussion, but I came across a blog by a woman from Somalia. In her post, "Where do Somalis originate from?" she insists that Somalis are 100% African, unmixed with Arabs or anyone else, and that studies show they share their DNA and Y chromosomes with the Mandinka peoples.

She also makes the claim that European and N. American whites invented the myth that it was contact with Arabs and Asians that led to the development of civilisation in Egypt, Nubia, and the Horn of Africa. (She must have read Cheikh Anta Diop.)

Other than her actually being from the region and "generic book learning", I don't know what qualifies her to make those statements, however, they do ring true to me. 

Follow the link to her blog if you understand French (using SMS spelling) for details.

Peace out and happy hair growing!


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## bajanplums1 (Jan 21, 2007)

Lusa said:
			
		

> I have always attributed a lot of North and East African's features such as their hair to their mixed lineage (Arab & African). So, I don't think there's a whole lot they have to do to maintain what they have since most of their hair is very manageable and tends to grow longer than your average African.  However, this is not to say they do not take care of their hair, they do.


I agree with this.  There are Ethiopians in this part of Brooklyn.  Their hair is beautiful, but their natural non-relaxed texture is so different from mine, I figure that we have different needs.


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## betty-boo (Jan 21, 2007)

I think that it is a good thing, as Isis says to learn from each other. Because really, we are not so different as we make out.

I would also like to draw your attention to the fact that there is a lot of variation amongst 'white peoples'. They have a range of different colour hair, textures, thickness, yet they are all considered as normal for 'white' hair. The colour of their skintones also range from Norwegians to more mediterranean tones.

Most importantly, Nigerians like my father, have wide noses etc. But even this isn't true for all Nigerians. They also have ranges of hair colour from light brown to very black and the same with their skin.

Kenyans do not have large noses etc. usually but have very fine chiseled features and are usually very dark. In Tanzania, if you consider the Masai tribe, who have not intermarried, they have features exactly like ethiopians but usually have '4b' hair.
The same can be said for Zambia.

I have an Indian friend here in London, who grudgingly admitted to me that one thing that Indians find extremely admirable and attractive amongst africans are their chiseled features. Hence the intermarrying. 
The features of ethiopians as a previous poster suggests are very african. Just not considered to be traditionally, West African.

There is a wide range of characteristics amongst ourselves as there are with any other race.


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## Belle Du Jour (Jan 21, 2007)

czyfaith77 said:
			
		

> Here is another Ethiopian.  Those of you who watched General Hospital in the late nintiesmay remeber her as Keesha Ward.  Her name is Senait Ashenafi. (I will try to find a better picture of her.) She is from Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.
> 
> http://aolsearcht3.search.aol.com/aolcom/redir?src=image&clickedItemURN=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geocities.com%2FTelevisionCity%2FSatellite%2F5989%2Fashenafisenait.JPG&moduleId=image_details.jsp.M&clickedItemDescription=Image Details



I LOVED Keesha and Jason!  That brings back memories.


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## Barbara (Aug 21, 2007)

I agree with the following quotes taken from this thread: “There is no secret to their regimen, just common sense . . . hair was natural and all she did was wash it and braid it, wear low maintenance styles.  Simple looks are among them are most common, and they look lovely. Her hair is 3 something. lighter skinned, coily hair, fair skinned/curly 3b/c ethiopians/somalians, by low maintenance.  I do not mean low care. It just means that the manipulation of the hair is lower.  Their hair is beautiful . . .”  All these comments describe the Ethiopian women who lived in my apartment complex and the few that go to my salon.  They have the longest, thickest and most beautiful hair I have ever seen!  When I first saw my stylist work on their hair, I was literally taken aback, in shock even!


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## Almaz (Mar 1, 2009)

Umm Hello I AM Ethiopian and there are many different ethnic groups with many different types of hair. Not All East Africans are mixed with Arabs.


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## Almaz (Mar 4, 2009)

[Not all Ethiopians are the same there are some tribes in the south that never saw an Arab. Which Ethic groups in that country you are talking about?


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Apr 19, 2009)

This reminds me of Youtube vids of folks with gorgeous locs sharing their info.  With all the positive posts and compliments, someone gets off track with an argument about who's bi-racial or not and if non-biracial folks can grow hair and why or why not.  Sigh...


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