# Things NOT in the Bible



## varaneka (Nov 1, 2009)

When praises go up, blessings come down

God helps those who help themselves


The Bible does not say that money is the root of all evil.  It says the love of money is a root of all types of evil.

Cleanliness is Next to Godliness

** Although a lot of sayings have concepts that are present in the Bible, many of them are not quotes from Scripture **


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## Laela (Nov 1, 2009)

This is true.... esp the root of all evil one. 
_
"For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many "sorrows."_

We can't argue with the Word of God. But I agree there are times we -- including me -- can  mis-quote. God help us with this.

Good post!


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## Ms_Twana (Nov 1, 2009)

And the famous God will never give us more than we can bare.


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## MizzBrown (Nov 1, 2009)

Keep posting, cause you could write a book on what folks say that is NOT in the bible...

Its to the point where I ask "chapter and verse please" to verify.


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## momi (Nov 2, 2009)

MizzBrown said:


> Keep posting, cause you could write a book on what folks say that is NOT in the bible...
> 
> Its to the point where I ask "chapter and verse please" to verify.


 
Me too?  I just lean my head to the side and say :Oh really - where exactly is that located?:


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## Kurlee (Nov 2, 2009)

Ms_Twana said:


> And the famous God will never give us more than we can bare.


where did this come from?


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## Ms_Twana (Nov 2, 2009)

Kurlee said:


> where did this come from?


 
Ummm....I'm confused.


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## Kurlee (Nov 2, 2009)

I meant where do you think people got the saying from that they confuse it with scripture





Ms_Twana said:


> Ummm....I'm confused.


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## Still Sexy Stewardess (Nov 2, 2009)

Kurlee said:


> where did this come from?


 
I think the quote is based on this scripture.

I Corinthians 10:13
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

******************


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## CandiceC (Nov 2, 2009)

Kurlee said:


> I meant where do you think people got the saying from that they confuse it with scripture



I've been wondering about that too. Where did that saying originate.


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## Still Sexy Stewardess (Nov 2, 2009)

Also, I'm no Bible scholar by any means, but I think a lot of sayings that sound Biblical are at least paraphrased scripture or scripture that has been reworded into a catchy phrase.

Honestly, I have to wonder if this is really a road that most Christians want to go down with any seriousness.  There are a lot of concepts that are generally accepted by most Christians that are not scriptural, like Easter and Christmas, like "forgive and forget" (which is not word-for-word in the Bible).  Should those concepts be abandoned because they're not spelled out?  Certainly not, IMO.  Also, should you _rule out _sayings or concepts that are grounded in wisdom (e.g. "look both ways before crossing the street" and "just say 'no'") just because they're not in the Bible?  No way. 

It is entertaining, though, to see what "in there" and what's not. (I think that's what OP is doing).  Good for a head-scratching moment or two.


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## Ms_Twana (Nov 2, 2009)

Kurlee said:


> I meant where do you think people got the saying from that they confuse it with scripture


 
Ooohhh......

What she said below!!!  Which basically means He will not put us in a situation of tempt, and not offer us a way out as well. 



Still Sexy Stewardess said:


> I think the quote is based on this scripture.
> 
> I Corinthians 10:13
> There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
> ...


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## Laela (Nov 22, 2010)

Good article to ponder....


*God Helps Those Who Help Themselves*
Monday, November 22nd, 2010
As written and presented by Mary Whelchel

'God helps those who help themselves.' Do you know where that's found in the Bible? Let me stop you before you head for your concordance, because it's not in the Bible. It's just one of those things we've heard all our lives and it sounds good, so we tend to accept it for the truth.

Well, there is some truth in it. God has given us opportunities, skills, gifts, and abilities, and he expects us to be good stewards of our resources. The parable of the talents teaches us that doctrine very strongly. The servant who didn't do a thing with his one talent was strongly reprimanded by the master, and his one talent was taken away from him. And for those two servants who were good stewards and worked hard, they received commendation and rewards, and their gifts were increased.

So, we know that God does not honor us when we sit around on our hands and wait for good things to happen to us. In that sense, he helps those who help themselves.

However, we need to be very careful that we don't take this too far, because we cannot do anything to earn our rights with God, to put him in obligation to us, or to force him to help us. We have to constantly recognize our total dependence on him for anything we attempt.

David, the shepherd boy, is a good example. When he faced Goliath, he was willing to step out in faith and do something. But listen to what he said as he faced Goliath: 'You come against me with sword and spear and javelin, but I come against you in the name of the Lord Almighty, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied. This day the Lord will hand you over to me... for the battle is the Lord's and he will give all of you into our hands' (I Samuel 17:45 - 47).

David didn't sit down and say, 'Lord, zap Goliath.' He used his talents and gifts as a marksman, but he went in the name of the Lord Almighty, recognizing that it was God's battle, not his. God helped David, not because David helped himself, but because David depended totally on God, and was willing to act in faith.

You see, when we start to believe that God helps those who help themselves, then we can easily start to take credit for our accomplishments. 'Well,' David might have said, 'because of my great abilities with a slingshot, I was able to kill that giant.' Instead he gave all the glory to God, because he knew that it was God's battle and God had won it.

So, when you hear someone say 'God helps those who help themselves,' remind yourself that you should work as though it depends on you and pray as though it depends on God.
_______________________________________________​_________________________________________________
For a simple reminder to "Overflow with Thankfulness today" click here or contact us at 1-800-292-1218 for a hard copy of the reminder.


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## makeupgirl (Nov 23, 2010)

What about when people say "God told me to tell you....". I don't know why but it irks me when I hear someone say that, because it feels like the telephone game and I don't know if that person is for real or not. Especially, when usually what that person has said that God has told them to say, is not in alignment with the word of God.

Oh and my fav "God don't like ugly"  I want to scream each time I here this and ask, where in the bible do you see this?


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## Poohbear (Nov 24, 2010)

*Things not in the Bible...*

Goodness does not get you into the kingdom of Heaven

You don't have to be good to get to Heaven

We sin daily therefore we must ask for forgiveness and repent daily

You must tithe 10% of your gross income to a church that you are a member of

You will be blessed because you tithe

You must be a church member 

You need your "church"

Going to church will keep you close to God

Christians are just sinners saved by grace

We should work for God

Salvation is you giving your life to Jesus Christ

God needs you

God wants you to be happy

Your greatest responsibility is to serve God and the "church"


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## fifi134 (Nov 27, 2010)

*Goodness does not get you into the kingdom of Heaven*

*We sin daily* therefore we must ask for forgiveness and repent daily

*You must tithe 10% of your gross income* to a church that you are a member of

*You must be a church member *

*Christians are just sinners saved by grace*

*We should work for God*

*Salvation is you giving your life to Jesus Christ*

*Your greatest responsibility is to serve God and the "church"*

Those may not be explicitly stated in the Bible, but they are true, Pooh...


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## Nonie (Nov 27, 2010)

Ms_Twana said:


> And the famous God will never give us more than we can bare.



This is in the Bible:



> No temptation  has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. *And  God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted  beyond what you can  bear.* But when you are tempted,  he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.


 2 Corinthians 10:13


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## Nonie (Nov 27, 2010)

creolesugarface said:


> Cleanliness is Next to Godliness



 Maybe this came from this passage where people are given advice on cleanliness because their camp must be holy: 



> 12 Designate a place outside the camp where you can go to relieve yourself. 13 As part of your equipment have something to dig with, and when you relieve yourself, dig a hole and cover up your excrement. 14  For the LORD your God moves about in your camp to protect you and to  deliver your enemies to you. *Your camp must be holy*, so that he will not  see among you anything indecent and turn away from you.


 Deuteronomy 23:12-14
*
*


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## Poohbear (Nov 29, 2010)

sopo144 said:


> *Goodness does not get you into the kingdom of Heaven*
> 
> *We sin daily* therefore we must ask for forgiveness and repent daily
> 
> ...


I disagree. No, they are not true... 

*Goodness does not get you into the kingdom of Heaven*
People use this statement before saying "it's salvation in Jesus that gets you into the kingdom of Heaven." The latter part is true, but people use this statement to do all kinds of hell and sin and then claim that they are a child of God. 

*We sin daily*
This is not true either. I know I do not sin daily, and I'm sure you haven't either. If we sin daily, then what is the point of trying to live right? Is everyone going to heaven? Is what Jesus did on the cross just pointless?

*You must tithe 10% of your gross income*
No where in the bible does it say this. This is simply NOT true. This is a crutch used for churches to get money out of people. Point blank. The bible simply says to be a cheerful giver and give as you are able to give and to give without force nor grundgingly.

*You must be a church member *
The Bible speaks of being part of the Church of God or Body of Christ... not a member of a local church building that's run as a business.

*Christians are just sinners saved by grace*
A true Christian is not a sinner in the sense of continual on-going sin. People also use this statement to support their sins.

*We should work for God*
This simply isn't true. We cannot work our way to salvation or to gain favor with God.

*Salvation is you giving your life to Jesus Christ*
Salvation is Jesus giving HIS life to US. Not the other way around.

*Your greatest responsibility is to serve God and the "church"*
No it's not. It's to glorify God, to live a holy life, and to love everyone.


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## Laela (Nov 29, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> I disagree. No, they are not true...
> *Goodness does not get you into the kingdom of Heaven*
> People use this statement before saying "it's salvation in Jesus that gets you into the kingdom of Heaven." The latter part is true, but people use this statement to do all kinds of hell and sin and then claim that they are a child of God.


 
The bottom line is this: Doing “good” is not enough. A person can do good things  and be considered "good and decent" all their life, and die and go to hell if they never made Jesus Lord of their life.  
In *John 14:6*, Jesus said, *I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.*

For one who has accepted Jesus, it’s not of their own fleshly doing that they are good,  but through Grace. With the help of the Holy Spirit, they make Godly choices/decisions and actions. God is as committed to the person who is committed to Him.
 


Poohbear said:


> *We sin daily*
> This is not true either. I know I do not sin daily, and I'm sure you haven't either. If we sin daily, then what is the point of trying to live right? Is everyone going to heaven? Is what Jesus did on the cross just pointless?



This is good to know you don’t sin, Pooh.

*1 Peter 1:13-16* Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed.  As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance.  But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;  for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy." *[NIV]*

  I agree. A righteous person won’t be subjected to sin or choose to sin:*
Romans 6: 12-15
* Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.  Neither  yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but  yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and  your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 
 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 
 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 

*1 John 3:7-10*[FONT=&quot] 
[/FONT]Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 

  Also remember* 1 John 1:8 * 
_If we say we have no sin [refusing to admit that we are sinners], we delude and lead ourselves astray, and the Truth [which the Gospel presents] is not in us [does not dwell in our hearts]._* [Amplified]* 

This is something between you and God.. no one else.   
 


Poohbear said:


> *You must tithe 10% of your gross income*
> No where in the bible does it say this. This is simply NOT true. This is a crutch used for churches to get money out of people. Point blank. The bible simply says to be a cheerful giver and give as you are able to give and to give without force nor grundgingly.



That’s it right there; a person who has God’s character won’t need to be coerced or persuaded to give. Godly people are already givers and they give for His sake, not for anyone else’s.
In *Malachi 3:8 *God answers this question:
_"__Will a man rob God _? Yet you have robbed Me! But you say, `In what way have we robbed You?' In tithes and offerings."

The definition of the word “tithe” derives from the Hebrew word, _asair _, which means to give the tenth part of.  [_Strong's Exhaustive Concordance]_ The law of _tithing _has to do with honor. God has divine ownership of everything,   we are merely stewards of all His possessions and what He blesses us with.
_*PSALMS 24:1 *_ _The earth is the Lord's, and all its fullness, The world and those who dwell therein_ 

Covenant people honor their Covenant with God.

If a minister gets in the way of someone's covenant with God, through coercion, or whatever, they have to answer to God for that.  




Poohbear said:


> *You must be a church member *
> The Bible speaks of being part of the Church of God or Body of Christ... not a member of a local church building that's run as a business.
> The Bible speaks of being part of the Church of God or Body of Christ... not a member of a local church building that's run as a business.


 
God’s Word doesn’t explicitly say one must “be a member of an organization”  but it does say  to not forsake the assembly. The PEOPLE comprise "the church", not the building. So if that assembly is gathered at a specific building, so be it.

*Hebrews 10: 24-25  *
_And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works,  not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching._

If a person doesn’t want to go to a “church” building and choose to assemble with other believers, they are still obeying God. To choose not to assemble at all with other believers and worship all by mySELF, is living in disobedience to God.  Love God, love people. Those are the two greatest commandments... there's no way around this.




Poohbear said:


> *Christians are just sinners saved by grace*
> A true Christian is not a sinner in the sense of continual on-going sin. People also use this statement to support their sins.


 
A saved person won’t continue in to live in sin, I agree this is a misused statement.



Poohbear said:


> *We should work for God*
> This simply isn't true. We cannot work our way to salvation or to gain favor with God.


 
 I believe this to be true: Being Righteous and being a Child of God involves servitude and has everything to do with being humble:

_*Colossians 3:23*_
_“Work willingly at whatever you do, as though you were working for the Lord rather than for people. Remember that the Lord will give you an inheritance as your reward, and that the Master you are serving is Christ. [*NIV*]_

_And whatever you do, do it heartily, as to the Lord and not to men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance; for[a] you serve the Lord Christ. [*NKJ*}_




Poohbear said:


> *Salvation is you giving your life to Jesus Christ*
> Salvation is Jesus giving HIS life to US. Not the other way around.


 
This is two-fold. Salvation (the saving of mankind through Jesus’ death) is free and available to all, but God cannot save anyone who doesn’t willingly give their life to Him, through Jesus.  Disbelief is the antithesis to Faith... it takes Faith to believe.
*1 Corinthians 15:1-4* 
   Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;  By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 

 


Poohbear said:


> *Your greatest responsibility is to serve God and the "church"*
> No it's not. It's to glorify God, to live a holy life, and to love everyone.




This is TRUE. God help us that the “church”  isn’t included in _everyone.  _

In *Luke 10:27*, Jesus told us what the Two Greatest Commandments are: 

“...*Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with thy entire mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.” *


That “neighbor” is people, including Brothers and Sisters in Christ. Do this, Jesus said, and we shall live.


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## Poohbear (Nov 29, 2010)

Laela, 

You're not getting what I am saying...



Laela said:


> The bottom line is this: Doing “good” is not enough. A person can do good things  and be considered "good and decent" all their life, and die and go to hell if they never made Jesus Lord of their life.
> In *John 14:6*, Jesus said, *I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.*
> 
> For one who has accepted Jesus, it’s not of their own fleshly doing that they are good,  but through Grace. With the help of the Holy Spirit, they make Godly choices/decisions and actions. God is as committed to the person who is committed to Him.



I did NOT say NOR imply that doing "good" is enough.  Yes, Jesus IS the way, the truth, and the life, but people do not act like it. Some think they can be "bad" or live a sinful lifestyle and still get into the kingdom of Heaven.   



Laela said:


> This is good to know you don’t sin, Pooh.
> 
> *1 Peter 1:13-16* Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed.  As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance.  But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;  for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy." *[NIV]*
> 
> ...


I did NOT say "I do not sin". I said "I do not sin DAILY!" There is a difference in those two statements...

However, I DO believe once I become a TRUE Christian, I can overcome all sin and unrighteousness through the power of Jesus Christ as the Bible teaches.

When 1 John 1:8 says "If we say we have no sin" it is not talking about refusing to admit we are sinners, it is talking about a Christian refusing to admit that he/she once was a sinner. Sin is referring to our inherited sin nature from Adam... not the action of committing sins. This verse is NOT an excuse for Christians to sin all day every day or whenever they want to yield to temptations of the flesh. People commonly use this verse to support the sins that they love to commit.



Laela said:


> That’s it right there; a person who has God’s character won’t need to be coerced or persuaded to give. Godly people are already givers and they give for His sake, not for anyone else’s.
> In *Malachi 3:8 *God answers this question:
> _"__Will a man rob God _? Yet you have robbed Me! But you say, `In what way have we robbed You?' In tithes and offerings."
> 
> ...


Malachi is commonly used to coerce people to give 10% of their gross income. That verse does NOT say "You are robbing God if you do not give 10% of your gross income." Man made up the 10% of your gross income. Not God.  



Laela said:


> God’s Word doesn’t explicitly say one must “be a member of an organization”  but it does say  to not forsake the assembly. The PEOPLE comprise "the church", not the building. So if that assembly is gathered at a specific building, so be it.
> 
> *Hebrews 10: 24-25  *
> _And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works,  not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching._
> ...


I agree. I did NOT say we should not assemble with any believers AT ALL.


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## Laela (Nov 29, 2010)

I Am.





Poohbear said:


> Laela,
> 
> You're not getting what I am saying...


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## Shimmie (Nov 29, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Malachi is commonly used to coerce people to give 10% of their gross income. That verse does NOT say "You are robbing God if you do not give 10% of your gross income." Man made up the 10% of your gross income. Not God.



:Rose:  I know it's difficult to grasp, even to accept much less understand about the measure of tithing [gross vs net], however, God speaks plainly about the Gross of our increase when it comes to tithing; it's indeed the gross not the net 

*Leviticus 27:30, 32*

30 And all the TITHE of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD. 

32 And concerning the TITHE of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.

*Numbers 18:26*

Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the TITHE.

*Deutoronomy 12:17*

Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the TITHE of thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil, or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest, nor thy freewill offerings, or heave offering of thine hand: 

*Deuteronomy 14:22,23,28 *

Thou shalt truly TITHE *all the increase of thy seed,* that the field bringeth forth year by year.

23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the TITHE of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always. 

28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth *all the TITHE of thine increase *the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: 

*2 Chronicles 31:5 *

And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance *the firstfruits *of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; *and the TITHE of all things *brought they in abundantly.

6 And concerning the children of Israel and Judah, that dwelt in the cities of Judah, they also brought in the TITHE of oxen and sheep, and the TITHE of holy things which were consecrated unto the LORD their God, and laid them by heaps. 

*NEHEMIAH 10:38 *

And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites take tithes: and the Levites shall bring up the TITHE of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house. 

*Nehemiah 13:12 *

Then brought all Judah the TITHE of the corn and the new wine and the oil unto the treasuries. 

--------

God makes it plain that it is the firstfruits of our increase that He is expecting from us.  The firstfruits comes from the top [the gross], not the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th layer...it's from the top. 

Then the remaining 90%, we pay our bills, deductions, taxes, living expenses, hair products for PJ's... etc. 

God blesses that 90%.  He gives us wisdom for witty inventions, further increases from other sources, favor in the market place, promotions on our jobs, and the flow of His wisdom on how to maintain and continue to gain rather than lose. 

In turn, God has promised us in Ecclesiastes, that we will enjoy the fruit of our labour for it is the gift of God.   So the tithe has nothing to do with man, it's about God yielding His faithful increase to us as we faithfully yield our increase -- the First Fruits to Him... HIS Gross, NOT man's.

*Exodus 23:19*

The *first of the FIRSTFRUITS of thy land *thou shalt bring into the house of the LORD thy God. 

*Deuteronomy 26:10* 

And now, behold, I have brought the *FIRSTFRUITS* of the land, which thou, O LORD, hast given me. And thou shalt set it before the LORD thy God, and worship before the LORD thy God: 

As for preachers who take advantage of God's tithe for their own personal misuse... folks have to select the ground into which they plant their seed into. Move onto another who is truly doing the work of God.  

Heart Blessngs... :Rose:


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## Poohbear (Nov 29, 2010)

*@Shimmie,*

The phrases that you bolded "all the increase of thy seed" and "all the TITHE of thine increase" and "the TITHE of all things" and "the firstfruits" and "the first of the firstfruits" do NOT mean GROSS INCOME!!! Sorry but it doesn't.  We are no longer required to do burnt offerings, meal offerings, drink offerings, or any Old Testament offerings. The firstfruits offering found its fulfillment in Jesus! "Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep" (1 Corinth 15:20).   The Christian is under no further obligation than to give cheerfully and liberally (2 Corinthians 9:6-7).


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## Shimmie (Nov 29, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> *@Shimmie,*
> 
> The phrases that you bolded "all the increase of thy seed" and "all the TITHE of thine increase" and "the TITHE of all things" and "the firstfruits" and "the first of the firstfruits" do NOT mean GROSS INCOME!!! Sorry but it doesn't.  We are no longer required to do burnt offerings, meal offerings, drink offerings, or any Old Testament offerings. The firstfruits offering found its fulfillment in Jesus! "Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep" (1 Corinth 15:20).   The Christian is under no further obligation than to give cheerfully and liberally (2 Corinthians 9:6-7).


  Pooh... our money [paychecks...Commissions, SSI.. etc.} is the same as the seed.  It's an increase for our livlihood.  Their seed, cattle,  was their paycheck, their increase.  

If this is old testament as you say, then why give anything to God as a tithe at all?  Why not just keep it?  What sense does it make to give what is no longer required?   Therefore if one is going to tithe, it has to be as God's Word instructs us to.   

I realize folks have a hard time tithing their net, let alone the gross.  However, it is what it is.  God is not changing His terminology of what is 'Gross' and 'Increase' to appease those who oppose.  He is just not going to do so.  For when God maintains His Word, we know that we can trust Him to fulfill each of His promises that He has given us when we obey Him.  God is not a pancake who bubbles and flips His mind.  God is sovereign; He is fixed; He changes not. 

And this has nothing to do with man theory nor those who have Churches which take advantage of this; it has to do with trusting God and allowing Him to bless us as we obey and bless Him as He says.  

Therefore the firstfruits of our increase is whatever our paycheck says *before* the deductions. My money becomes my seed, my grain, my tithe.  God always yields His increase.  Always.    :Rose:


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## Guitarhero (Nov 29, 2010)

I usually think of the tithe through pragmatic means.  How else will the building have heat and air conditioning -  a multiplying miracle in the collection plate like fishes and bread?  Nope.  I figure that if you go more than once and breathe the air, sit your tuchis on the padded seat and take any amount of wisdom with you on your way home, you kinda need to help pay the bill.


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## Laela (Nov 29, 2010)

And, so, how is this Law appropriated today, Pooh?

True, we don't have to sacrifice cows, bullocks, etc., but seriously... What do YOU believe: that Jesus' death  _did away_ with God's Law or fulfilled it?  



Poohbear said:


> *@Shimmie,*
> 
> The phrases that you bolded "all the increase of thy seed" and "all the TITHE of thine increase" and "the TITHE of all things" and "the firstfruits" and "the first of the firstfruits" do NOT mean GROSS INCOME!!! Sorry but it doesn't.  We are no longer required to do burnt offerings, meal offerings, drink offerings, or any Old Testament offerings. *The firstfruits offering found its fulfillment in Jesus! *"Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep" (1 Corinth 15:20).   The Christian is under no further obligation than to give cheerfully and liberally (2 Corinthians 9:6-7).


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## Shimmie (Nov 29, 2010)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> I usually think of the tithe through pragmatic means.  How else will the building have heat and air conditioning -  a multiplying miracle in the collection plate like fishes and bread?  Nope.  I figure that if you go more than once and breathe the air, sit your tuchis on the padded seat and take any amount of wisdom with you on your way home, you kinda need to help pay the bill.



  @ 'tuchis'  

It's definitely to preserve the House of Worship and it's caregivers and the Sheppard.  But also to help those in need.  Feeding the poor, the hungry, the naked, those without homes... We give so that others may have as well.  :Rose:


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## Poohbear (Nov 29, 2010)

Shimmie and Laela,

Why not give ALL THAT WE HAVE like the widow woman in Mark 12!!!!!



Shimmie said:


> Pooh... our money [paychecks...Commissions, SSI.. etc.} is the same as the seed.  It's an increase for our livlihood.  Their seed, cattle,  was their paycheck, their increase.
> 
> If this is old testament as you say, then why give anything to God as a tithe at all?  Why not just keep it?  What sense does it make to give what is no longer required?   Therefore if one is going to tithe, it has to be as God's Word instructs us to.
> 
> ...






Laela said:


> And, so, how is this Law appropriated today, Pooh?
> 
> True, we don't have to sacrifice cows, bullocks, etc., but seriously... What do YOU believe: that Jesus' death  _did away_ with God's Law or fulfilled it?


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## Shimmie (Nov 29, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Shimmie and Laela,
> 
> Why not give ALL THAT WE HAVE like the widow woman in Mark 12!!!!!



Oooooo, I have a testimony to that.  When I first started tithing, I had nothing and I mean nothing, I was exactly as the widow with her 2 mites.  

My children were so young, and I would go to Church each Sunday, literally giving all that we had.   Somehow, I 'Believed' that God was going to fulfill His promises that He has given to me.  

All I remember is that we always had a ride to and from Church; my children always had lunch for school and my refrigerator and cupboards were never empty.  The rent got paid; I remember opening my Bible one evening and finding two 5 dollar bills inside and I was not the one who placed them there.  

Pooh and Laela, it was like gliding through faith, I mean literally gliding through faith.  God was literally carrying me and my babies through a time when we have 'nothing'.   All I knew is that I believed God.   My Pastor's wife came to me one day and said that I reminded her of the 'Widow' with two mites, who gave all that she had.   

One blessing came flowing after another.  I ended up working as a teacher in our Church and the blessings that flowed and the annointing that came with it while teaching those babies in my Pre-K and Kindergarten classes were beyond words.  

God flowed through our lives so fully and all I can remember is that I believed Him and took Him at His word.   Now God never asked me to give Him, more than 10% of what we had, however, the 10% that I had seemed so little and unworthy in comparison to what He was doing for me and my children.   

Lemme tell you, God is not kidding when He says, "Prove Me".   I wasn't even trying to prove God, I just wanted to give Him more than what I had, so I gave it all.   

Anyway in answer to your question, why not give it all?  Well, God is not asking for it all, only the 10% of our Gross increase.   That's all.


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## Poohbear (Nov 30, 2010)

Shimmie said:


> Anyway in answer to your question, why not give it all?  Well, God is not asking for it all, only the 10% of our Gross increase.   That's all.



God is not asking us for any of our money. God is a spirit. He cannot receive our physical money. The church does. It goes straight to their bank account, and the church leaders decide what to use the funds for. Not God.

You can say all that extra stuff about "Oh, church leaders are led by God" or "Oh, we are to trust God that the church leaders will do what's best with our money"... NO! Excuses to feed into man's religion.

The Bible teaches us to give cheerfully and freely... not some standard amount. It can be 1%, 5%, 10%, 50%, 75%, or more! It's giving according to what you are able to give....not grudgingly and without force.


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## Nonie (Nov 30, 2010)

I am with Pooh on tithing: you are to give generously according to what you're able.

I think sometimes common sense is expected from us, which is why we got a reasoning brain. Remember when onlookers were shocked to see Jesus and his disciples "working" on the Sabbath when "it is written" that we must rest? Jesus posed a question to them to show how sometimes you really need to be rational. He asked, "If one of you has a son or an ox that falls into a well on the Sabbath day, will you not immediately pull him out?" Luke 14:5

I decided to look up the words "Firstfruits" and the definition I found was ""Firstfruits refers to the first portion of the harvest that is given to God." So let's think about that. You plant 100 seeds. Out of those 100 seeds only 80 produce fruit; the others rot/wither or are half eaten by birds. So your harvest is short of what you were supposed to get. Methinks that would be more like your net harvest. Gross would be you collecting all the fruits, including the rotten ones and then taking ten percent of that entire collection in order to make 1/10 of "gross". But who harvests bad fruit? Instead, you harvest the good (net) and from that you give your gifts. 

Also, here's an interesting passage (bold is mine):



> And now, brothers, we want you to know about the grace that God has given the Macedonian churches. Out of the most severe trial, their overflowing joy and their extreme poverty welled up in rich generosity. For I testify that they gave as much as they were able, and even beyond their ability. Entirely on their own, they urgently pleaded with us for the privilege of sharing in this service to the saints. And they did not do as we expected, but they gave themselves first to the Lord and then to us in keeping with God’s will. So we urged Titus, since he had earlier made a beginning, to bring also to completion this act of grace on your part. But just as you excel in everything—in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in complete earnestness and in your love for us—see that you also excel in this grace of giving.
> 
> I am not commanding you, but I want to test the sincerity of your love by comparing it with the earnestness of others. For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.
> 
> ...


2 Corinthians 8:1-15

There's also another thing I would like to mention. Everyone thinks of tithing as putting a percentage (mostly 10%) of their money in the plate that goes around during church service. Methinks "giving to God" is more than that. 



> “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
> 
> “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
> 
> ...


 Matthew 25:31-46

So when you are taking that 10% or 1% or 90% and considering it your tithing, do not forget to split it between that plate and those in need (eg charities), because you do not want to leave "the King hungry, naked, sick, in prison, out in the cold" while helping that Pastor get his luxury car and mansions. 

I am not saying not to give to the church, but that it is not the only way to give to God and unless you're in denial, I'm sure you know there are some preachers living it up while their congregation is suffering in debt and never do they give back to those who gave them as described in 2 Corinthians 8:13-14:   



> Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality. At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. Then there will be equality[...]


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## Laela (Nov 30, 2010)

How is God's Law appropriated today, Pooh?




Poohbear said:


> Shimmie and Laela,
> 
> Why not give ALL THAT WE HAVE like the widow woman in Mark 12!!!!!


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## Shimmie (Nov 30, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> God is not asking us for any of our money. God is a spirit. He cannot receive our physical money. The church does. It goes straight to their bank account, and the church leaders decide what to use the funds for. Not God.
> 
> You can say all that extra stuff about "Oh, church leaders are led by God" or "Oh, we are to trust God that the church leaders will do what's best with our money"... NO! Excuses to feed into man's religion.
> 
> The Bible teaches us to give cheerfully and freely... not some standard amount. It can be 1%, 5%, 10%, 50%, 75%, or more! It's giving according to what you are able to give....not grudgingly and without force.



You totally disregarded my testimony.   

Anyway.... 

Jesus collected money.   Ummmm Yeah... He did.  

The 'Church' speaks of collecting money; read the book of Acts. 

There is no way around this.   We are not farmers, so our seed is our 'green' dollars.

NOW if one does not wish to tithe 10% they don't have to.  But don't try to err with scripture to clause oneself out of it.   Just don't give and speak the truth that it's YOUR decision, not God's but yours.  It's just that simple.   Really.  

 And I pray that folks don't use the _cheerful giver_ as their exemption.  

Blessings and I mean this sincerely.


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## Shimmie (Nov 30, 2010)

Nonie said:


> I am with Pooh on tithing: you are to give generously according to what you're able.
> 
> I think sometimes common sense is expected from us, which is why we got a reasoning brain. Remember when onlookers were shocked to see Jesus and his disciples "working" on the Sabbath when "it is written" that we must rest? Jesus posed a question to them to show how sometimes you really need to be rational. He asked, "If one of you has a son or an ox that falls into a well on the Sabbath day, will you not immediately pull him out?" Luke 14:5
> 
> ...



This does not apply to 'ALL' nor the majority of preachers.      This is your view, but it's out of proportion to the Truth.   There are far too many Churches and Ministries who do not mis-appropriate the money given to them to support God's work.   

As for firstfruits, if you were receiving grain as your paycheck then of course this applies, however, you receive money as your increase which takes the place of grain, and 10% off of the top of that belongs to God.  

There's no way around this.  Increase is payment for our labour; none of us here are farmers ...   Actually, farmers DO receive money for their grain and in turn those who tithe, tithe the money to God's work.   Grain won't pay the light bill or the mortgage, not in this day and time. 

Love and Blessings  :Rose:


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## Laela (Nov 30, 2010)

Nonie,

Here's the thing with tithes that I'm afraid is being missed  here.

Covenant is serious business with God. 
*
Ecclesiastes 5:4 s*ays:
_When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for [he hath] no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed._

He is also a God of His Word.
When Peter answered the tax collectors, saying that they (the disciples) pay tribute (taxes), Jesus wasn't pleased. Nonetheless, Jesus went ahead and paid the taxes, not because they were owed, but because Peter's answer put them in obligation to. God takes obligations/commitments seriously, which is why I believe He honors those who honor Him. Tithing is a form of commitment. If a person chooses not to tithe, that's between them and God. Some see tithing as archaic because it's in the Old Testament (Old Covenant). God's Commandments are also in the Old Testament [apply reasoning here] We are living under the New Covenant, through Jesus, the bridge that binds.

Of course God doesn't _*need *_my money, but the physical churches do, so they can function as His Body on Earth to meet the needs of others. Isn't' that what it's all about?  





Nonie said:


> I am with Pooh on tithing: you are to give generously according to what you're able.
> 
> I think sometimes common sense is expected from us, which is why we got a reasoning brain. Remember when onlookers were shocked to see Jesus and his disciples "working" on the Sabbath when "it is written" that we must rest? Jesus posed a question to them to show how sometimes you really need to be rational. He asked, "If one of you has a son or an ox that falls into a well on the Sabbath day, will you not immediately pull him out?" Luke 14:5
> 
> ...


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## Shimmie (Nov 30, 2010)

Laela said:


> Nonie,
> 
> Here's the thing with tithes that I'm afraid is being missed  here.
> 
> ...



You shared this lovingly.


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## Poohbear (Nov 30, 2010)

Laela said:


> How is God's Law appropriated today, Pooh?



What you just asked above is my point exactly with the statement I made about the widow woman giving all that she had. Why don't we do that now? (that's a rhetorical question, not asking for an answer). Give ALL that we have like the widow woman... Forget 10%... Give 100% and more! Why is this principle ignored for today's time? Are we picking and choosing what to follow out of the Bible? I think so!

Today, man has twisted God's Law to fit their agenda.


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## Poohbear (Dec 1, 2010)

Shimmie said:


> You totally disregarded my testimony.
> 
> Anyway....
> 
> ...



No, I didn't ignore your testimony... I just could not relate to it. Giving to one local church does not directly or indirectly bless you. Those blessings you receive was not because of you tithing/giving... you were just blessed accordingly to God's sovereign will.

Plus, as Nonie has pointed out, a local church isn't the only organization you have to give to. You can give directly from yourself to charities, people, strangers, your family, other families, friends, etc., and God will be pleased and/or glorified by this...whether you are blessed financially, materialistically, spiritually, or not.

I have read the book of Acts thank you very much... why don't you read the books of 1 & 2 Corinthians...

Yes, the bible does speak of the church taking up a COLLECTION (1 Corinthians 16:1-2)... not TITHING 10% of GROSS INCOME! 

And guess what? Even in these verses, it doesn't say the collection was monetary...
_
"Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also. On the first day of every week let each one of you put aside and save, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come." (1 Corinth. 16:1-2)_

And I am not using the "cheerful giver" clause as an exemption from anything. God does say that he loves a cheerful giver (2 Corinthians 9:7). Jesus came to fulfill the law. We do not have to prove our love for God with physical money. Jesus stands as our standard for living right.


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## Laela (Dec 1, 2010)

@ the bolded: What do you think should/can be done about this?

That widow in Mark 12 gave all she had because it was on her heart to give it -- unlike the surplus offerings of the Scribes and Pharisees who gave because it was no sacrifice to them.  Her action also was about sacrifice and faith, because she was really in need when she gave. Are believers who tithe today giving sacrifice or surplus? How do you determine that?





Poohbear said:


> What you just asked above is my point exactly with the statement I made about the widow woman giving all that she had. Why don't we do that now? (that's a rhetorical question, not asking for an answer). Give ALL that we have like the widow woman... Forget 10%... Give 100% and more! Why is this principle ignored for today's time? Are we picking and choosing what to follow out of the Bible? I think so!
> 
> *Today, man has twisted God's Law to fit their agenda*.


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## Poohbear (Dec 1, 2010)

Laela said:


> @ the bolded: What do you think should/can be done about this?
> 
> That widow in Mark 12 gave all she had because it was on her heart to give it -- unlike the surplus offerings of the Scribes and Pharisees who gave because it was no sacrifice to them.  Her action also was about sacrifice and faith, because she was really in need when she gave. Are believers who tithe today giving sacrifice or surplus? How do you determine that?


I'm not sure what can be done about it... I would say more people need to start reading the bible more for themselves.

I agree with you about the widow woman giving all she had because that was on her heart... that's how I feel it should be today... we shouldn't be limited nor held up to a standard percentage based on man's interpretation of what a tithe is and should be for today's time.

As far as the believers that tithe today, I believe they are giving sacrificially, but not in the sense of the widow woman who gave from her heart if you know what I mean. I feel like tithers are giving out of either fear, force, or what they have been taught over the years. When I first began tithing 10% of my gross income around the age of 15 or 16 after getting my first job, I was tithing because of what I was taught from the church, not because of what I read in the Bible. After researching and studying the scriptures for myself about tithing and giving, I saw differently than what I had been taught since a child. So I stopped tithing 10% of my gross income, and began giving from my heart according to what I can give. Plus, as Nonie has said, God blessed us with a brain. As we get older, that's when the reality of things in this life really starts to hit us. Yes, faith is in the unseen, but God doesn't want us to be fools walking around with blinders on.

I would say only Jesus can determine who gives from the heart and who gives for other reasons, just like he noticed with the Scribes and Pharisees versus the widow woman. Only he knows our heart. The only way we could possibly know the reason behind people's giving is if they vocalize or express how they feel after giving.


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## Nonie (Dec 1, 2010)

Shimmie said:


> This does not apply to 'ALL' nor the majority of preachers.      This is your view, but it's out of proportion to the Truth.   There are far too many Churches and Ministries who do not mis-appropriate the money given to them to support God's work.



True. And that is why I didn't say DO NOT GIVE A DIME to the church. 



Shimmie said:


> As for firstfruits, if you were receiving grain as your paycheck then of course this applies, however, you receive money as your increase which takes the place of grain, and 10% off of the top of that belongs to God.



OK, paycheck is NET not GROSS. So that squashes the argument you have all been putting forth, and supports the point I was making that harvest is NET pay not GROSS, which seems to be the lie a lot of you have bought into.



Shimmie said:


> There's no way around this.  Increase is payment for our labour; none of us here are farmers ...   Actually, farmers DO receive money for their grain and in turn those who tithe, tithe the money to God's work.   Grain won't pay the light bill or the mortgage, not in this day and time.



Since you all want to insist that the idea of tithing is all about giving money to the church and giving 10%, let us examine scripture.



> 22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23  Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and olive oil, and the firstborn  of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the  place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn  to revere the LORD your God always. 24  But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD  your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD  will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose. 26  Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other  fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall  eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice. 27 And do not neglect the Levites living in your towns, for they have no allotment or inheritance of their own.  28 At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year’s produce and store it in your towns, 29  so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own)  and the foreigners, the fatherless and the widows who live in your  towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD your God  may bless you in all the work of your hands.


Deuteronomy 14:22-29

And again:



> *Firstfruits and Tithes*
> 
> 1  When you have entered the land the LORD your God is giving you as an  inheritance and have taken possession of it and settled in it, 2  take some of the firstfruits of all that you produce from the soil of  the land the LORD your God is giving you and put them in a basket. Then  go to the place the LORD your God will choose as a dwelling for his Name  3 and say to the priest in  office at the time, “I declare today to the LORD your God that I have  come to the land the LORD swore to our ancestors to give us.” 4 The priest shall take the basket from your hands and set it down in front of the altar of the LORD your God. 5  Then you shall declare before the LORD your God: “My father was a  wandering Aramean, and he went down into Egypt with a few people and  lived there and became a great nation, powerful and numerous. 6 But the Egyptians mistreated us and made us suffer, subjecting us to harsh labor. 7 Then we cried out to the LORD, the God of our ancestors, and the LORD heard our voice and saw our misery, toil and oppression. 8 So the LORD brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, with great terror and with signs and wonders. 9 He brought us to this place and gave us this land, a land flowing with milk and honey; 10  and now I bring the firstfruits of the soil that you, LORD, have given  me.” Place the basket before the LORD your God and bow down before him. 11  Then you and the Levites and the foreigners residing among you shall  rejoice in all the good things the LORD your God has given to you and  your household.  12 When  you have finished setting aside a tenth of all your produce in the  third year, the year of the tithe, you shall give it to the Levite, the  foreigner, the fatherless and the widow, so that they may eat in your  towns and be satisfied. 13  Then say to the LORD your God: “I have removed from my house the sacred  portion and have given it to the Levite, the foreigner, the fatherless  and the widow, according to all you commanded. I have not turned aside  from your commands nor have I forgotten any of them. 14  I have not eaten any of the sacred portion while I was in mourning, nor  have I removed any of it while I was unclean, nor have I offered any of  it to the dead. I have obeyed the LORD my God; I have done everything  you commanded me. 15 Look  down from heaven, your holy dwelling place, and bless your people Israel  and the land you have given us as you promised on oath to our  ancestors, a land flowing with milk and honey.”


Deuteronomy 26:1-15

What I read there is that tithing involved bringing the firstfruits to the presence of God and after giving thanks and worshiping Him, sharing it with those without, which sorta kinda definitely seems to be in line with Jesus teaching about giving to the hungry, the thirsty, the naked, the sick, the imprisoned. I do not see where it says, give it to the priest and leave it there, like modern doctrines will try to tell you. Instead, you are to partake of it as a kind of communion and a way to rejoice before the Lord. 

The other thing to note is there was money back then. If the place of God's dwelling was far, they were to sell their firstfruits and carry the money to the place of God's presence then buy whatever they liked there and that is what they were to share amongst themselves and with the Levites living in their town who had no allotment or inheritance. 

So the argument that tithing is about money THESE days seems to me to be something man invented. Not a single place in the whole Bible is money used in tithing. And the only place money is mentioned w/r/t tithing is in the part about selling your produce to save you having to lug a load but you do not tithe that money. Instead you buy more produce for tithing. And again, the tithing of which we reading is different from the tithing people speak of today. So what if we aren't farmers? Why can't we buy the produce and have a meal together with those without during our assemblies?


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## Nonie (Dec 1, 2010)

So how did this whole tithing story come about when it meant a totally different thing in the Old Testament? 

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia:



> In the Christian Church, as those who serve the altar should live by the altar, provision of some kind had necessarily to be made for the sacred ministers. In the beginning this was supplied by the spontaneous offerings of the faithful. *In the course of time, however, as the Church expanded and various institutions arose, it became necessary to make laws which would insure the proper and permanent support of the clergy*. The payment of tithes was adopted from the Old Law, and early writers speak of it as a divine ordinance and an obligation of conscience. The earliest positive legislation on the subject seems to be contained in the letter of the bishops assembled at Tours in 567 and the canons of the Council of Maçon in 585. In course of time, we find the payment of tithes made obligatory by ecclesiastical enactments in all the countries of christendom. The Church looked on this payment as "of divine law, since tithes were instituted not by man but by the Lord Himself" (C. 14, X de decim. III, 30). As regards the civil power, the Christian Roman emperors granted the right to churches of retaining a portion of the produce of certain lands, but the earliest instance of the enforcement of the payment of ecclesiastical tithes by civil law is to be found in the capitularies of Charlemagne, at the end of the eighth century. English law very early recognized the tithe, as in the reigns of Athelstan, Edgar, and Canute before the Norman Conquest. In English statute law proper, however, the first mention of tithes is to be found in the Statute of Westminister of 1285. Tithes are of three kinds: predial, or that derived from the annual crops; mixed, or what arises from things nourished by the land, as cattle, milk, cheese, wool; and personal or the result of industry or occupation. Predial tithes were generally called great tithes, and mixed and personal tithes, small tithes. Natural substances having no annual increase are not tithable, nor are wild animals. When property is inherited or donated, it is not subject to the law of tithes, but its natural increase is. There are many exempted from the paying of tithes: spiritual corporations, the owners of uncultivated lands, those who have acquired lawful prescription, or have obtained a legal renunciation, or received a privilege from the pope.
> 
> At first, the tithe was payable to the bishop, but later the right passed by common law to parish priests. Abuses soon crept in. The right to receive tithes was granted to princes and nobles, even hereditarily, by ecclesiastics in return for protection or eminent services, and this species of impropriation became so intolerable that the Third Council of Lateran (1179) decreed that no alienation of tithes to laymen was permissible without the consent of the pope. In the time of Gregory VIII, a so-called Saladin tithe was instituted, which was payable by all who did not take part personally in the crusade to recover the Holy Land. At the present time, in most countries where some species of tithes still exist, as in England (for the Established Church), in Austria, and Germany, the payment has been changed into a rent-charge. In English-speaking countries generally, as far as Catholics are concerned, the clergy receive no tithes. As a consequence, other means have had to be adopted to support the clergy and maintain the ecclesiastical institutions (see CHURCH MAINTENANCE), and to substitute other equivalent payments in lieu of tithes. Soglia (Institut, Canon, II, 12) says "The law of tithes can never be abrogated by prescription or custom, if the ministers of the Church have no suitable and sufficient provision from other sources; because then the natural and divine law, which can neither be abrogated not antiquate, commands that the tithe be paid." In some parts of Canada, the tithe is still recognized by civil law, and the Fourth Council of Quebec (1868) declared that its payment is binding in conscience of the faithful.


 (Source)

To me that sounds like all the other rules that "institutions" make and pass off as God's word. 

BTW, there was a mention in the bible of tithing w/r/t possessions (not money), and this was in Joshua's conditional promise to God:



> 10 Jacob left Beersheba and set out for Harran. 11 When he reached a certain place, he stopped for the night because the sun had set. Taking one of the stones there, he put it under his head and lay down to sleep. 12 He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. 13 There above it[c] stood the LORD, and he said: “I am the LORD, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying. 14 Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring.[d] 15 I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go, and I will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you.” 16 When Jacob awoke from his sleep, he thought, “Surely the LORD is in this place, and I was not aware of it.” 17 He was afraid and said, “How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God; this is the gate of heaven.”
> 18 Early the next morning Jacob took the stone he had placed under his head and set it up as a pillar and poured oil on top of it. 19 He called that place Bethel,[e] though the city used to be called Luz.
> 20 *Then Jacob made a vow, saying, “If God will be with me and will watch over me on this journey I am taking and will give me food to eat and clothes to wear 21 so that I return safely to my father’s household, then the LORD[f] will be my God 22[g] this stone that I have set up as a pillar will be God’s house, and of all that you give me I will give you a tenth.”*


Genesis 28:10-22

So he told God that he would give God IF God met his needs. Bold huh?

You know what strikes me as really odd? There are so many other practices in the Old Testament that somehow it seems somebody decided didn't need updating as much as this tithing one. And as much as tithing is clearly defined as sharing what you have with others, it seems someone carefully made sure the majority believe it's giving a tenth to the church...which I'm sure Jesus would have really hammered on had that been true, but instead He seemed to echo sharing with others instead, over and over again...adding that if you did that, you would have shared it with Him.


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## Nonie (Dec 1, 2010)

God doesn't want a 10th of our gross income. The Bible asks us to offer our bodies as holy sacrifice to God (Romans 12:1). When a rich man asked Jesus what he ought to do to inherit eternal life, he was told to obey the commandments. He said he'd done that and asked what else he needed to do. He was told to sell all his possession and give to the poor and he'll have treasures in heaven. And then follow Jesus. (Matthew 19) Again, I see giving to those without (not to the church). 

The Law of Moses had commandments like "Thou shalt not covet your neighbor's wife", but under the Spirit's guidance, that law becomes redundant because those led by the Spirit seek the things of God (Romans 8). Do you remember the woman found committing adultery? According to the Law of Moses she was supposed to be stoned. Jesus didn't allow it (John 8:1-11).  Jesus quoted the Law of Moses a few times in the New Testament (eg an eye for an eye)  starting with “It is said” but then shortly after he’d add “but now I tell you” and gave new orders (Matthew 5:17-48). 

Hebrews 8 says:


> 1 Now the main point of  what we are saying is this: We do have  such a high priest, who sat down  at the right hand of the throne of the  Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true  tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being.  3  Every high  priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and  so it was  necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on  earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer  the gifts prescribed by the law. 5  They serve at a sanctuary that is a  copy and shadow of what is in  heaven. *This is why Moses was warned  when he was about to build the  tabernacle: “See to it that you make  everything according to the pattern  shown you on the mountain.”**[a*] 6 *  But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as   the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since   the new covenant is established on better promises.*
> 7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no  place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the  people and said[b]:
> “The days are coming, declares the Lord,
> when I will make a new covenant
> ...


When people preach that you are to give 10% OR ELSE—which seems to be  the message of tithing that a lot of people buy into—they totally ignore  everything else written in the New Testament about giving. Nowhere is a  QUOTA given. In fact, here’s the verse “God loves a cheerful giver” in  its context:


> 6 Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap  sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7*Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion *[as in IT MUST BE 10% OR ELSE!]*, for God loves a cheerful giver.*  8 And God is able to bless you abundantly, so that in all things at all  times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. 9  As it is written:*“They have freely scattered their gifts to the poor; *
> *    their righteousness endures forever.” *​[The fact that ^^ is quoted here in this context again proves that it’s all about giving those without!]
> 10 Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also  supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of  your righteousness. 11 You will be enriched in every way so that you can  be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will  result in thanksgiving to God.
> 12 This service that you perform is not only supplying the needs of the  Lord’s people but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanks to  God. 13 Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves,  others will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your  confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing  with them and with everyone else. 14 And in their prayers for you their  hearts will go out to you, because of the surpassing grace God has given  you. 15 Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift!


2 Corinthians 9:6-15

The more I read that^^, the more I see it as advice to let our actions  testify to the love of God and thus bring glory to His name. Thus we are  to give to those to whom we confess the gospel so that our actions may  match the words of the gospel we are preaching…and bring them into a  place of giving praise to God. Hmm :scratchch  …doesn’t sound to me like we are being told to extend this generosity  to church leaders. Sounds more like it is to those who would otherwise  not know of God’s big heart but will come to know of it through us, that  we should be showing generosity to.


In case you’re wondering how it is the early preachers like Paul financed their ministry since tithing was not mentioned as a requirement in all their preaching, Paul tells us in 2 Thessalonians 3:6-10


> 6 In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers and sisters, to keep away from every believer who is idle and disruptive and does not live according to the teaching you received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, 8 nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. 9 *We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you to imitate*. 10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.”


…and  1 Thessalonians 2:9:


> 9 Surely you remember, brothers and sisters, our toil and hardship; we worked night and day in order not to be a burden to anyone while we preached the gospel of God to you.


So am I saying do not give to the church? No. I’m saying give as your spirit is willing not because someone tells you THE LAW SAYS you must give 10% of your income. God loves giving that comes from the heart. Heed the bible’s message:


> Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father. Treat younger men as brothers, 2 older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity.
> 3 Give proper recognition to those widows who are really in need. 4 But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God. 5 The widow who is really in need and left all alone puts her hope in God and continues night and day to pray and to ask God for help. 6 But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives. 7 Give the people these instructions, so that no one may be open to blame. 8 *Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever*.


Because of this LAW that seems to pressure people to give to the church, I know of people whose families were going w/o because they felt obligated to do their bidding for the church lest they be cursed.   So just because a large number of folks think that’s how it is supposed to be, doesn’t mean it’s the truth. But if those of us who feel this way are wrong, I am sure the Spirit who guides will lead us to all truth.


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## nappystorm (Dec 1, 2010)

^^^Thanks for that post. The Bible is sooo confusing to me. You really broke it down, answered some questions I had, and taught me something new.


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## Nonie (Dec 1, 2010)

Laela said:


> Nonie,
> 
> Here's the thing with tithes that I'm afraid is being missed  here.
> 
> ...



Here's that verse you quote in context:


> 1 [a]Guard  your steps when you go to the house of God. Go near to listen rather  than to offer the sacrifice of fools, who do not know that they do  wrong.  2 Do not be quick with your mouth,
> do not be hasty in your heart
> to utter anything before God.
> God is in heaven
> ...


Ecclesiastes 5:1-7

And that's just the thing: I did not make any vow to God to tithe 10% of my gross income, or even to give it to the church. I did not make any vow at all w/r/t. Usually when I give, I give without having mouthed anything to anyone--not even to God. I just give as my heart moves me and give thanks that I am able to. I do not play with God so perish the thought that I would make a covenant and not keep it. So I'm not sure I get your point.


You mention the passage of the tax men coming to Peter and Jesus having Peter pay taxes for him and Peter.  Here's the actual passage:




> 24When they came to Capernaum, those who collected (V)the [b]two-drachma tax came to Peter and said, "Does your teacher not pay (W)the two-drachma tax?"
> 25He  said, "Yes." And when he came into the house, Jesus spoke to him first,  saying, "What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth  collect (X)customs or (Y)poll-tax, from their sons or from strangers?"
> 26When Peter said, "From strangers," Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are exempt.
> 27"However, so that we do not (Z)offend  them, go to the sea and throw in a hook, and take the first fish that  comes up; and when you open its mouth, you will find [c]a shekel. Take that and give it to them for you and Me."


Matthew 17:24-27

I find verses  26 and 27 very interesting. "*...Then the sons are exempt. However, so that we do not offend them*...Take and give it to them for you and me".... 

He didn't say, "Oh in that case then...Take and give it to them for you and me" which would have clearly implied that Peter's response was proof that He was supposed to pay up, He the First born of God. But rather his next words tell me that Peter's answer confirmed that "He was exempt" and the only reason Jesus went ahead and paid was so as not to offend them. It was not because He believed he's supposed to pay. 

(continued in next post)


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## Nonie (Dec 1, 2010)

Here is King James version of the same passage with a commentary so we understand the passage:




> *24And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money *[the  double drachma; a sum equal to two Attic drachmas, and corresponding to  the Jewish "half-shekel," payable, towards the maintenance of the temple  and its services, by every male Jew of twenty years old and upward. For  the origin of this annual tax, see Ex 30:13, 14; 2Ch 24:6, 9. Thus, it will be observed, it was not a civil, but an ecclesiastical tax. The tax mentioned in Mt 17:25 was a civil one. The whole teaching of this very remarkable scene depends upon this distinction.]
> 
> *came to Peter, *[at whose house Jesus probably resided while at Capernaum. This explains several things in the narrative]
> 
> ...


Purple entries are from the Jamison Bible Commentary


Paul says in Romans that we are children of God/co-heirs with Christ:



> 14 *For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.* 15  The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in  fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption  to sonship.[f] And by him we cry, _“Abba,_[g] Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17  *Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs  with Christ,* if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may  also share in his glory.


Romans 8:14-17

So had that scene with Peter played out today, we'd be in the same boat as Christ whereby we too would be exempt.


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## Shimmie (Dec 1, 2010)

Nonie said:


> True. And that is why I didn't say DO NOT GIVE A DIME to the church.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nonie, whatever our 'increase' is, God expects us to give 10% of it.   There's no way around this; even with all of the scriptures and notations you've shared.   Whatever we receive in this life as payment, we are to give of it to the work of God 10% off of the top, not the net.  In this day, money is our increase, not grain.     

Dear one, the gross salary IS our paycheck.  I'm sorry, but it is.  The deductions taken are to our benefit [our use], even the taxes [which pay for public uses -- schools, libraries, roads, etc.].   People [most] are not going to give up taxes voluntarily, so the government takes it before we have a chance to spend it.    The insurance deductions, retirement, credit union, etc., are our personal benefits, therefore the gross is our paycheck with it's deductions; the net is simply the balance afterwards. 

I hope my posts do not come across as an argument, it's not.   I'm not being contentious nor disrespectful to you or anyone ... 

Blessings to you loved one.


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## Laela (Dec 1, 2010)

My point is, everyone's relationship with God is personal, as led by the Holy Spirit.  

I really don't know how we got stuck on tithing, but I agree that we also give _back _to God -- our time, talents, gifts, etc, to serve Him. The earth is Lord's and the fullness thereof, so all of His isn't even ours to keep..we just have dominion.  The people I know who _tithe _monetarily, do much more than give money, because they know giving is not about just money. They give of their time, gifts, talents, etc.  For them, the commitment to God to tithe is just one aspect of giving.

Not arguing with you about this at all.   

Hebrews 13:5-6 says:
_"Let your character be free from the love of                         money, being content with what you have; for He Himself                         has said, 'I will never desert you, nor will I ever forsake                         you,' so that we confidently say, “The Lord is                         my helper, I will not be afraid_"  

People who love money tend to want to horde it or keep it. They don't want to spend it. They believe everyone is out to get their money. They'll kill for it. They'll beat someone down for it..they'll bus' a cap.... Well, you get my drift...  That's not a Godly character at all. So I find it ironic that Christians who give are called lovers of money.

Scripturally, this is what God has to say about 'giving':

*Matthew 25:*
31. When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
 32. And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
 33. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
 34. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
 35. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
 36. Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
 37. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
 38. When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
 39. Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
 40. And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
 41. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
 42. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
 43. I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
 44. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
 45. Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
 46. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Giving as one purposes in the heart brings us right right back to the Two Greatest Commandments.   Love God, Love People. 
I understand that to not keep these two commandments causes us to disobey all the others and makes tithing, giving, healing, delivering, teaching, preaching, etc., null and void on Judgment Day. 

The Jesus and Peter tax story is an example of how at times, we need to deny ourselves in terms of worldly interests, rather than give offense. So yes, there was obligation for them to pay the tax, so as not to offend. Jesus was teaching Peter a lesson.




Nonie said:


> Here's that verse you quote in context:
> Ecclesiastes 5:1-7
> 
> And that's just the thing: I did not make any vow to God to tithe 10% of my gross income, or even to give it to the church. I did not make any vow at all w/r/t. Usually when I give, I give without having mouthed anything to anyone--not even to God. I just give as my heart moves me and give thanks that I am able to. I do not play with God so perish the thought that I would make a covenant and not keep it. So I'm not sure I get your point.
> ...


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## Laela (Dec 1, 2010)

I agree, we are co-heirs with Christ...it's funny how people have a problem when preachers say that 

We also are the new Levites, with Jesus being our High Priest, thus improving the Old Covenant, not doing away with it. Jesus fulfilled The Law. 

*1 Peter 2:*
5. Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
 6. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
 7. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
 8. And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
 9. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;






Nonie said:


> Here is King James version of the same passage with a commentary so we understand the passage:
> 
> 
> Purple entries are from the Jamison Bible Commentary
> ...


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## Laela (Dec 1, 2010)

@bolded, I agree.




Poohbear said:


> I'm not sure what can be done about it... *I would say more people need to start reading the bible more for themselves.*




@ bolded: That statement negates itself. 

@underlined: How are you to know people who tithe  aren't giving from their heart..like this widow? This really is a  personal issue between them and God.  Tithing is a principle, like any other principle in the Bible, so I agree we can gauge what really was on their heart when they speak after giving. Good point. However, not everyone speaks.




Poohbear said:


> I agree with you about the widow woman giving all she had because that was on her heart... that's how I feel it should be today... we shouldn't be limited nor held up to a standard percentage based on man's interpretation of what a tithe is and should be for today's time.
> 
> *As far as the believers that tithe today, I believe they are giving sacrificially, but not in the sense of the widow woman who gave from her heart if you know what I mean.* I feel like tithers are giving out of either fear, force, or what they have been taught over the years. When I first began tithing 10% of my gross income around the age of 15 or 16 after getting my first job, I was tithing because of what I was taught from the church, not because of what I read in the Bible. After researching and studying the scriptures for myself about tithing and giving, I saw differently than what I had been taught since a child. So I stopped tithing 10% of my gross income, and began giving from my heart according to what I can give. Plus, as Nonie has said, God blessed us with a brain. As we get older, that's when the reality of things in this life really starts to hit us. Yes, faith is in the unseen, but God doesn't want us to be fools walking around with blinders on.
> 
> I would say only Jesus can determine who gives from the heart and who gives for other reasons, just like he noticed with the Scribes and Pharisees versus the widow woman. Only he knows our heart. The only way we could possibly know the reason behind people's giving is if they vocalize or express how they feel after giving.


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## Laela (Dec 1, 2010)

*Wanted to share this breakdown of the Old Covenant vs the New Covenant, for anyone interested in doing their own study (the numbers of both sections correspond with one another):


OLD COVENANT*

*1- A physical covenant based on physical promises.* 
*
2- Physical circumcision* 
*
3- People did not have God's Holy Spirit and were to obey in the letter of the law. * *

4- If obeyed in letter of the law, person could live in community, worship at the earthly tabernacle. * 
*
5- Had works of law, offerings, animal sacrifices, vows, washings, etc. * *

6- If law transgressed, physical atonement for certain sins, death penalty for others. * *

7- Had physical ordinances of divine service and earthly sanctuary.
* *
8- At institution of Old Covenant and earthly tabernacle, blood of animals used for consecration * 

*9- Sons of Aaron were high priest of earthly tabernacle.* 
*
10- Priest offered animal sacrifices for justification to earthly tabernacle, high priest went into Holy of Holies only once a year * 

*11-* *NO direct access to God the Father

**12- Could not make a person perfect as pertaining to conscience. * 
*
13- Sacrifices ceased to be effective at the time the new spiritual order was established by Jesus. * 
*
14- Old Covenant ceased to be effective after the death of Jesus. * 


*________________________________________________________________________________________________**
NEW COVENANT*

*1- A spiritual covenant based on spiritual promises and eternal life.* 
Exodus 19:5-6; 
Deuteronomy 28; Leviticus 26
 John 3:16;  Hebrews 8:6, 9:15;
 Romans 8;  Luke 18:29-30 

*2- Repentance and circumcision of the heart through baptism.* 
 Genesis 17:9;
 Exodus 12:48;  John 7:22 
 Acts 2:38, 3:19;  Romans 2:25-29;
 Philippians 3:3;  Jeremiah 4:4;
 Colossians 2:11-13

*3-* *Converted believers have the gift of God's Spirit and are to obey in the spirit of the law. * 
 Romans 7:6;
 Hebrews 8:7-9;  Matthew 5:21-45 
 Matthew 5:21-48, 6:1-34; Acts 2:38;
 Romans 7:6, 8:9-10; Galatians 2:20;
 Hebrews 8:10-12, 10:16

*4- Believe in Christ and obey in the spirit, have direct access to worship God in heaven through Jesus.* 
 Hebrews 9:13;  Galatians 3:12;
 Leviticus 18:5;  2 Corinthians 3:16
 John 4:23-24, 16:23-27;
 Hebrews 6:20, 10:23;  Romans 8:9-39;
 Ephesians 2:18-22;  2 Corinthians 3:6 

*5-* *Have Jesus' sacrifice, fruits of the Holy Spirit, prayer and good works. * 
 Leviticus 1-7 
 Hebrews 9:10, 10:12, 13:15;
 Galatians 5:22-24;  Ephesians 2:10;
 Romans 12:1-2;  Revelation 8:3-5;
 Matthew 19:17;  Mark 15:15-18 
*
6- **If law transgressed, forgiveness upon repentance, second death for unpardonable sin. * 
 Hebrews 9:7-10;  2 Corinthians 3 
 Hebrews 8:5, 9:1-28, 10:16-31;
 Revelation 20:14-15, 21:8;
 2 Corinthians 3

*7- Has actual divine service and a heavenly sanctuary. * 
 Hebrews 9:1-5 
 Hebrews 8:5; 9:1-5, 24-28; 10:16-31;
 Revelation 8:3-4

*8- At institution of New Covenant and heavenly tabernacle,  blood of Jesus used for consecration* 
 Hebrews 9:18-23;
 Exodus 24:3-8, 40:1-38 
 Luke 22:19-22;
 1 Corinthians 11:23-32;
 Hebrews 9:14-28, 10:5-14

*9-* *Christ is High Priest of heavenly tabernacle forever.* 
 Hebrews 8:3-5;  Exodus 28:1
 Hebrews 4:14-16, 5:1-9, 7:17;
 Hebrews 8:1-2, 9:11

*10- Christ offered Himself once as sacrifice for world's sins, all who repent and are baptized are made right with God in heavenly tabernacle  
*Hebrews 5:1-3, 9:1-13 
 Hebrews 7:25-27, 9:23-28
 Acts 11:18;  Galatians 2:20; Romans 3:24-25

*11- **Direct access to the Father through Jesus * 
 Hebrews 9:6-8; 10:19 
 Matthew 27:51;  Hebrews 4:14-16;
 Ephesians 7:25-27;  John 16; Galatians 4:6-7;
  Romans 8:15; Ephesians 2:18 

*12- Forgives sin spiritually and purges the conscience through the work of the Holy Spirit unto perfection * 
 Hebrews 9:9; 10:4, 11 
 Hebrews 10:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:9;
 Colossians 1:27;  Matthew 5:48;
 Philippians 2:5, 3:9-17;  Ephesians 4
*
13- **Christ's one supreme sacrifice applies to EVERY human who accepts it.* 
 Hebrews 9:9-10;  Daniel 9:27 
 Hebrews 10:10-14

*14-* *New Covenant established after Christ's resurrection and ascension to God.* 
Hebrews 8:13; 10:9;  Matthew 27:51
 Hebrews 8:13;  Matthew 27:51

*Source:* _BibleStudy.org_


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## Nonie (Dec 1, 2010)

Shimmie said:


> Nonie, whatever our 'increase' is, God expects  us to give 10% of it.   There's no way around this; even with all of the  scriptures and notations you've shared.   Whatever we receive in this  life as payment, we are to give of it to the work of God 10% off of the  top, not the net.  In this day, money is our increase, not grain.
> 
> Dear one, the gross salary IS our paycheck.  I'm sorry, but it is.  The  deductions taken are to our benefit [our use], even the taxes [which pay  for public uses -- schools, libraries, roads, etc.].   People [most]  are not going to give up taxes voluntarily, so the government takes it  before we have a chance to spend it.    The insurance deductions,  retirement, credit union, etc., are our personal benefits, therefore the  gross is our paycheck with it's deductions; the net is simply the  balance afterwards.
> 
> ...


So  Shimmie since I MUST obey the LAW then if I gave more I'd be breaking  the law, right? Coz that's NOT what I was told to give. I've been told  10% so I'd be breaking the LAW by giving a different percentage from  what is asked. And if my household is hungry because of the economy and  I'm behind in bills so that I cannot afford to pay them, feed my kids  and give ten percent, then I should just leave my household without so I  can meet this demand, right? After all there's no way around this as  you say. 

The way you all are so RIGID with this ten percent when  I never heard Jesus or the apostles command it makes me wonder if you  think God sets parameters. This is probably why some people become  ministers because after all, they don't have to work (like Paul did or  serve like Jesus did. Never mind the fact that both Paul and Jesus were  setting examples for them to follow). All they have to do is wait for  Sunday since they will get 10% from everyone. And what more does this  message say, God only wants 10% so the other 90% is all yours to do with  it as you please. They don't have to give anymore because "God only  wants 10%". Do you see how crazy that sounds? 

In Jesus' sermons,  He made it clear that He didn't want a fraction from us. He wanted all.  From telling people to sell all and follow him to telling them that anyone who doesn't  denounce all he has cannot be his disciples. To drive that point home,  He even said that "if you don't hate your own  father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters, yes, and his own life  also, you can't be his disciple". For One who commanded we must love to  challenge us to hate in order to drive home the point that the people who matter  most to us must fade in comparison to Him, and that the devotion/love (dare I say percentage?) we ought to give  to Him should be so great that it's at the far opposite end of the spectrum of what we give our loved ones shows what sort of sacrifice He expects from us. 

But is  He saying to give this to the church or the Pastor? No, he repeatedly  talks of giving to those without in more places than one. Does he talk  about firstfruits? Or a percentage thereof? No. He talks of giving what  you have. He mentions food, clothes, shelter....

You know, if we  are to understand the Bible, we cannot just take a tiny part of it  (Malachi) and blow it up to make it the be-all-and-end-all of God's  direction for our lives. We have to read it all to get its full context.  We aren't stoning adulterers or sacrificing animals, so can't you all  see how sly it is that tithing has been turned around to be "salary for  the church" when it was never that? Let's look at that scripture you  quoted before you said (again) "there's no way around it":22*Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year*.  23  [can't argue with that] *Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and olive oil, and the  firstborn  of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God  at the  place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name*, [not put in a plate that goes back to the Pastor to maintain that church but WE are to eat this tithe in God's presence] *so that you  may learn  to revere the LORD your God always*. [So we may learn to honor and worship the Lord our God always] 24  *But if that place is  too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD  your God and cannot  carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD  will choose to put  his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver*, [Now  if the place of God's dwelling is far away, we may sell the firstfruits  but again we don't put that money in a plate going around church but we  are told instead] *and  take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will  choose.* 26  *Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine  or other  fermented drink, or anything you wish.* [We are to use that money to buy whatever our hearts desire] *Then you and your  household shall  eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and  rejoice.* [Then WE and OUR HOUSEHOLD shall feast in the presence of the Lord (makes me think of how we just celebrated Thanksgiving!)] 27 *And do not neglect the Levites living in your towns, for  they have no allotment or inheritance of their own.* [We are told not to forget those who have no land or inheritance of their own] 28 *At the end of  every three years, bring all the tithes of that year’s produce and store  it in your towns*, *29  so that the Levites (who have no allotment or  inheritance of their own)  and the foreigners, the fatherless and the  widows who live in your  towns may come and eat and be satisfied,* [Every  three years we are to bring 10% x 3 and store it in town so that the  poor,  those not from around here, the fatherless and those who lost  their hubbies but live in our town may come and eat and be satisfied] *and so  that the LORD your God  may bless you in all the work of your hands.  *[So that the Lord our God may bless the work of our hands]​I  have a friend who was telling me about her Pastor. He has a job besides  the service he does for God in the church. The church's finances come  not just from the people's heartfelt donations but also from his own  contribution. The main thing that the congregation does is feed people  during service. So rather than just bring money, the bulk of their  support for that ministry is food--the sort of tithing of old according  to what we read in the bible. So the pastor doesn't have to worry about  what he will eat, and the church's maintenance is a task that all who  worship, including the Pastor, take to heart. 

If preachers were not demanding 10% claiming it's for God 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  but were instead serving and following Paul's example, I bet my bottom  dollar, they would never be without and buildings would not be falling  apart as we are led to believe. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  People would give cheerfully and freely according to what they could  afford or wanted, and no one would be without, not the giver or the  receiver. But this crazy rule has churches living it up--and you all  know MAJORITY of them are so let's not act brand new--while the  congregation is living way below the level of the Pastor. Show me a  Pastor with only one pair of shoes, and I will show you 10+ in his  congregation without any shoes at all. 

So there is a way around  it for me, Shimmie, even if you have decided that there isn't one for you. I will  obey God. I will give to the poor, and the hungry, the naked and so on.  I will let His Spirit direct me in my giving and in how I use my  income. But I will not listen to one more person tell me that I am to  give a specific quota of my money to God and then expect me to give it to the  Pastor, whom when I last checked wasn't God. Jesus who said He and God  are one always referred to the lowly as representing Him, never the  church leaders or the guy in the pulpit. While holding a child in His  arms He said, "*Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name  welcomes me;  and whoever welcomes me does not welcome me but the one who sent me*." (Mark 9:36-37). He said that when the Son of Man comes the King will  say, "I* tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of  these brothers of mine, you did for me*" referring to the sick, the  hungry, the thirsty, the naked, the stranger... (Matthew 25:31-46). And I  will not limit my God to just 10%. I will give Him whatever I can  because it is from Him that I get all things.


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## Shimmie (Dec 1, 2010)

Nonie said:


> So  Shimmie since I MUST obey the LAW then if I gave more I'd be breaking  the law, right? Coz that's NOT what I was told to give. I've been told  10% so I'd be breaking the LAW by giving a different percentage from  what is asked. And if my household is hungry because of the economy and  I'm behind in bills so that I cannot afford to pay them, feed my kids  and give ten percent, then I should just leave my household without so I  can meet this demand, right? After all there's no way around this as  you say.
> 
> The way you all are so RIGID with this ten percent when  I never heard Jesus or the apostles command it makes me wonder if you  think God sets parameters. This is probably why some people become  ministers because after all, they don't have to work (like Paul did or  serve like Jesus did. Never mind the fact that both Paul and Jesus were  setting examples for them to follow). All they have to do is wait for  Sunday since they will get 10% from everyone. And what more does this  message say, God only wants 10% so the other 90% is all yours to do with  it as you please. They don't have to give anymore because "God only  wants 10%". Do you see how crazy that sounds?
> 
> ...



I've never tithed nor given out of the 'law'.  I've done so because _I believe God._  He has never failed to take care of me and my family.  Even when I had nothing and yet still gave, God has always proven Himself faithful and sustained me and my family.  

Nonie... it goes beyond the 'law', way beyond.   I have lived the days of having limited to no funds to pay my bills and I just trusted God giving to Him anyway.    

I looked at the widow in I Kings when Elijah told her to make him a cake first... this was all the woman had left to feed both her and her son.  Yet, she fed him and she and her son ate... even during a famine in the land...the recession. 

When God says to prove Him, to trust Him, He never fails us.  I don't have to go out my way to disprove Him, neither do I have to suffer to prove Him, I simply believe Him and He shows up each and every time. 

I can understand the 'fear' of those who are in dire straits...   I've been there and I mean I've been there.   One day, I had to look at God and just believe Him... NOT man, but Him and His Word which made a promise to me and I have never looked back.   God is faithful and He honors those who believe Him.   It's not about the 'law', it's faith that pleases God and nothing less.  :Rose:  :Rose:


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## Shimmie (Dec 1, 2010)

Nonie said:


> [/INDENT]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## topsyturvy86 (Dec 1, 2010)

This conversation has gone in different directions and I don't know where to start but i'll try from this post.



Nonie said:


> So  Shimmie since I MUST obey the LAW then if I gave more I'd be breaking  the law, right? Coz that's NOT what I was told to give. I've been told  10% so I'd be breaking the LAW by giving a different percentage from  what is asked. And if my household is hungry because of the economy and  I'm behind in bills so that I cannot afford to pay them, feed my kids  and give ten percent, then I should just leave my household without so I  can meet this demand, right? After all there's no way around this as  you say.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's not about it being the law... It's not a do/die affair. It's a choice. Tithing is an act of worship and of faith. It's about putting God above your bills and your circumstances, trusting Him to mind your business as you put His business first. Holding back your tithe because of a bad economy and this and that = fear. Fear of running out, fear of not having enough an dnot being able to meet your bills, fear of this, fear of that. God has not given us a spirit of fear. Paying your tithe in the midst of uncertainty like the widow did = Trust in God. It says, God I trust you and put you first, I trust you to take better care of me than my money can. It also puts you in check in that the money doesn't own you and you don't become a slave to it. 2 months ago, I had a lot of financial needs to satisfy before my next payday. I still tithed and I didn't lack that month at all. God took care of me I believe.

The principle of first fruits run throughout the bible. From Cain and Abel, through to the end. God deserves the best and only the best, not the left overs. Giving a tenth is also scriptural but besides that, how do you personally give to those without ... those without food/shelter ... those emotionally damaged and lost, the prostitute that has never known love in her life, and I could go on. We give to the church to advance the kingdom of Heaven by projects within the church such as spiritual growth, counselling, and everything the church does and also projects outside the regular church, such as feeding the needy and providing assistance to struggling families or communities within and outside the church. The church like any 'institution' for lack of a better word needs money to do things. Who best to provide the money than the members?


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## topsyturvy86 (Dec 1, 2010)

Shimmie said:


> I've never tithed nor given out of the 'law'.  I've done so because _I believe God._  He has never failed to take care of me and my family.  Even when I had nothing and yet still gave, God has always proven Himself faithful and sustained me and my family.
> 
> Nonie... it goes beyond the 'law', way beyond.   I have lived the days of having limited to no funds to pay my bills and I just trusted God giving to Him anyway.
> 
> ...



This is beautiful Shimmie! Exactly what I was trying to articulate a few moments ago but wasn't quite hitting it. Thanks for being here and sharing your views


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## Laela (Dec 1, 2010)

What about God's Divine Law? This is the only 'law' I'm referring to.

Today, is it not internalized on the hearts of men through the Holy Spirit?


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## mz tracy 25 (Dec 1, 2010)

Sometimes we need to humble ourselves, swallow our pride and admit it when we are wrong, or do not understand something. But, sometimes we rather try to prove our point, although we realize that we may in fact be wrong.

Nonie great job explaining tithing. You've opened my eyes a little more, and I'm going to do more research about this subject  Thanx!


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## Nonie (Dec 1, 2010)

Shimmie said:


> I've never tithed nor given out of the 'law'.  I've done so because _I believe God._   He has never failed to take care of me and my family.  Even when I had  nothing and yet still gave, God has always proven Himself faithful and  sustained me and my family.
> 
> Nonie... it goes beyond the 'law', way beyond.   I have lived the days  of having limited to no funds to pay my bills and I just trusted God  giving to Him anyway.
> 
> ...



I  think we're on different wavelengths Shimmie. I have not once said that  I will not give because I am worried about the survival of my home. You  might have gathered that I felt that way from when I said that there  are people who rob Peter to pay Pastor Paul so to speak. And that  IS a fact, as I have seen it in people I know who will not put one foot  out of line with what their Pastor says, never questioning it lest they  be cursed. And the reason these people overstretch themselves at the  expense of their own households (an act that is considered immoral in  the Bible) is because they have been told they must give 1/10 or else.  THAT is what I refuse to accept.

What I have been saying is I  will not put a number on what I give to God. And I will not join with  all who think that giving to God means putting a 1/10 of my income  (gross income???? Again I'm sorry but I know paycheck = net income;  wages/salary = gross income. So it might just be semantics here) in the  plate that goes around in church. I will give to God by giving to those  in need; those whom Jesus encouraged me to give to. And it's not just  about possession, it's about my time too. But try telling that to those  who've been benefiting. 

Do you know that Abraham whom God loved and made father of all nations never tithed on his possessions? 


> 1 At the time when Amraphel was king of Shinar,[a]  Arioch king of Ellasar, Kedorlaomer king of Elam and Tidal king of  Goyim, 2  these kings went to war against Bera king of Sodom, Birsha  king of  Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, Shemeber king of Zeboyim, and  the king  of Bela (that is, Zoar). 3 All these latter kings joined  forces in the Valley of Siddim (that is, the Dead Sea Valley). 4 For  twelve years they had been subject to Kedorlaomer, but in the thirteenth  year they rebelled.  5  In the fourteenth year, Kedorlaomer and the  kings allied with him went  out and defeated the Rephaites in Ashteroth  Karnaim, the Zuzites in Ham,  the Emites in Shaveh Kiriathaim 6 and the  Horites in the hill country of Seir, as far as El Paran near the desert.  7  Then they turned back and went to En Mishpat (that is, Kadesh), and   they conquered the whole territory of the Amalekites, as well as the   Amorites who were living in Hazezon Tamar.
> 8  Then the king of Sodom, the king of Gomorrah, the king of Admah, the   king of Zeboyim and the king of Bela (that is, Zoar) marched out and   drew up their battle lines in the Valley of Siddim 9  against  Kedorlaomer king of Elam, Tidal king of Goyim, Amraphel king of  Shinar  and Arioch king of Ellasar—four kings against five. 10  Now the Valley  of Siddim was full of tar pits, and when the kings of  Sodom and  Gomorrah fled, some of the men fell into them and the rest  fled to the  hills. 11 The four kings seized all the goods of Sodom and Gomorrah and  all their food; then they went away. 12 They also carried off Abram’s  nephew Lot and his possessions, since he was living in Sodom.
> 13  A man who had escaped came and reported this to Abram the Hebrew.  Now  Abram was living near the great trees of Mamre the Amorite, a  brother[b]  of Eshkol and Aner, all of whom were allied with Abram. 14  When Abram  heard that his relative had been taken captive, he called  out the 318  trained men born in his household and went in pursuit as far  as Dan. 15  *During the night Abram divided his men to attack them and he routed  them, pursuing them as far as Hobah, north of Damascus. 16  He recovered  all the goods and brought back his relative Lot and his  possessions,  together with the women and the other people. *
> 17  After Abram returned from defeating Kedorlaomer and the kings  allied  with him, the king of Sodom came out to meet him in the Valley  of Shaveh  (that is, the King’s Valley).
> ...


Genesis 14

Abraham tithed  not his increase but stuff that he captured from the  enemy. Surely if  God required it of him, then wouldn't the God who  punished sin have  dealt with him or at least brought it up? But somehow that seemed OK with God too. Just as it was OK for Joshua to go throughout his life not tithing...it seems.

(continued next post)


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## Nonie (Dec 1, 2010)

You know another place where you see an example  of the sort of "giving" that many translate tithing to be (ie giving to  the church), it's in Numbers. But again, I don't see it being the  people's increase or it being firstfruits that are given to the priests.  Instead, it's spoils of war. Tithing isn't mentioned here which is very  glaring if you ask me if it was really something required of the people  of God:



> 1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people.”  3  So Moses said to the people, “Arm some of your men to go to war against  the Midianites so that they may carry out the LORD’s vengeance on them.  4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel.” 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6  Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with  Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the  sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.
> 7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8  Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings  of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12  and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the  priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab,  by the Jordan across from Jericho.
> 13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14  Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of  thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.
> 15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16  “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the  Israelites to be unfaithful to the LORD in the Peor incident, so that a  plague struck the LORD’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
> ...


Numbers 31

If  tithing was an essential part of living for God as modern doctrines  would have you believe, with all the decrees God gave the Israelites,  why is it that there is no mention of it throughout Exodus, say. When  the people of Israel were in the wilderness and got the increase of  manna, why weren't they asked to tithe that? As important as "tithing"  seems to be "according to modern preachers", it's oddly missing in a lot  of the directives God gave his people on how to live in a way that  pleases Him. 

Bottom line, I do live as Matthew 6:25-33 advises,  so I am not worried about going w/o because I gave God. I refuse to do  is following a man-made rule made in the guise of being God command when  His Only Begotten Son not once made it clear to me that I am to do as  modern doctrines demand: give 10% of my gross income to the church. 

But I don't think we will ever agree on this, so while you continue to abide by that doctrine, I will abide by these words:



> 6 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, 7 rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.  8  See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive  philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual  forces[a] of this world rather than on Christ.
> 9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority. 11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh[b] was put off when you were circumcised by[c] Christ, 12  having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised  with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from  the dead.
> 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you[d] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14  having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood  against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the  cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[e]


 Colossians 2:6-15


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## Shimmie (Dec 1, 2010)

Nonie said:


> You know another place where you see an example  of the sort of "giving" that many translate tithing to be (ie giving to  the church), it's in Numbers. But again, I don't see it being the  people's increase or it being firstfruits that are given to the priests.  Instead, it's spoils of war. Tithing isn't mentioned here which is very  glaring if you ask me if it was really something required of the people  of God:
> 
> Numbers 31
> 
> ...



Nonie, something is very sad here and is amiss with all that you've shared in both scripture and with your personal views; for they only add up to what you choose to believe.

The sadness is that to further your belief, you continue to condemn every Pastor of being unworthy.   You've presented them as 'takers' only [provided that they receive 'food' as their pay and not money].    With all of the scripture you've shared, you've come forth with the _appearance _of condemnation for 'all' Pastors who receive the tithes of money to their Churches.   

I realize there are bad apples out there, but not all, neither the majority.   No one is held captive in anything unless they choose to be.   There is no captivity in tithing, only by love and faith.    Just as there is no captivity in worshiping God and praising Him, it is done by love and faith and in gratitude.

If you or other folks choose not to tithe, that's fine.  But this bashing of Pastors and Ministers and the Church has got to stop.  It's unmerited and it's not Jesus nor any scripture in God's word.  When God is sharing the Truth, He speaks the Truth without misrepresentation or bearing a false witness to get His point across.   

If your concept of a Pastor is to walk around with holes in his clothes, eating only what someone gives him at their discretion, having only one pair of shoes and yet work his life to the bone while others live in luxury ....

Hey.... it's like that.  There are Pastors who have literally nothing and yet everything is expected of them from selfish, uncaring congregants and those who look from the 'outside', passing undue judgments upon them...unjustly.  

Something is amiss.  And it's not tithing, it's a heart of bitterness which needs to see these men and women of God justly.    

In love...  :Rose:


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## Nonie (Dec 1, 2010)

^^Shimmie, my only emphasis on Pastors' corruption is only because the idea of giving to them 10% of gross income as a REQUIREMENT is a lie. And that Pastors continue to preach it makes me find them inappropriate and reeking of having personal agendas.

I do not truly believe all Pastors are thieves, or I wouldn't listen to any of them. I keep throwing that in there because this LIE reeks of greed and as long as people continue to propagate it in the name of God, then they are not speaking in Truth. If they will call it tithing then let them treat tithes as the Old Testament did where the total amount of the tithe was used to commune with all in their fellowship and with those who had nothing. From that offering soup kitchens should be born. 

I mentioned in one of my posts that if all Pastors would instead free people to give as they are able...so that there was no pressure and if they WORKED instead of just waiting for handouts (Yes, I said it, because there are many who do and who truly follow in Paul's example), and if their ministry was truly in the practice of giving back, I bet my bottom dollar that not only would the ministry prosper, but they too would never be lacking in anything and no one in their congregation would be lacking either. And the giving would abound in ways that glorify God. Because God's word would be in that place.

I also stated in a lot of my posts that I am not saying not to give to the church but I am saying DO NOT GIVE your entire contribution to the church when there are so many in need. Jesus already named a few, and Paul also encouraged it as it will bring glory to God. And I know some may argue that the church takes it and gives it to the poor and the widowed, etc... What about you? Will you be the one who left the King without? I don't think "indirect" service is the message Jesus was trying to send. We are to give to those without DIRECTLY from what we have...and not from a small fraction of it. 

The total disregard of all that is taught about giving in favor of putting 10% of gross income in the offering plate is wherein my grievances lie. I don't agree with it, and if any Pastor finds it OK, then s/he isn't one from whom I wish to get my nourishment. 

That's all. 

So in case you still don't get it, I'm not so naive as to think all Pastors are conmen. There are many who do not make such crazy demands as those who use Malachi as their excuse to compel the masses to bring them 10% of their income. There are many who share God's truth and live by example. And I give thanks for those and those who actually read the entire Bible and share its truth selflessly and who allow people to give freely whatever their heart leads them to give.

And yes, I do get angry about people who propagate lies in the name of Truth and mislead. Jesus gave a stern warning about leading His children astray and if people feared God, they'd be careful what it is they tell His children.


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## Shimmie (Dec 2, 2010)

Nonie said:


> ^^Shimmie, my only emphasis on Pastors' corruption is only because the idea of giving to them 10% of gross income as a REQUIREMENT is a lie. And that Pastors continue to preach it makes me find them inappropriate and reeking of having personal agendas.
> 
> I do not truly believe all Pastors are thieves, or I wouldn't listen to any of them. I keep throwing that in there because this LIE reeks of greed and as long as people continue to propagate it in the name of God, then they are not speaking in Truth. If they will call it tithing then let them treat tithes as the Old Testament did where the total amount of the tithe was used to commune with all in their fellowship and with those who had nothing. From that offering soup kitchens should be born.
> 
> ...



 Nonie, your theory is not coming from God's Word as you wish it to be.   It's simply not.   Again, I am not contending with you.  However, there is no way that you can validate your personal theory; there is much amiss in what you  have shared as God's word, it's not validated.

You have a strong will about what you choose to do with your money when you wish to do so, and it is not based upon faith or the word of God.  It's based upon what you've made up your mind to follow which is your own free will and your own right.       You are entitled to your free will. 

However, in your posts you are still disparaging the integrity of Pastors who do not deserve it.   You're taking a few Pastors who have [sinned] and classified all as such.  

You are saying that all Pastor's are propagating lies if they receive tithes.   Nonie, this is not coming from the heart of God.      Instead it's what you have chosen to believe.  

Your choice and interpretation of scripture is your choice; but to accuse Pastors such as you have, is to propagate distrust in the Body of Christ where it doesn't belong.  

Money is a very sensitive issue and I am so glad that it doesn't push me to this limit of disparaging a true man or woman of God who is truly doing God's work whether I give to them or not.  

You take care... nothing more.  :Rose:


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## Nonie (Dec 2, 2010)

OK, Shimmie. I can't share anymore than I have. And I can't get you to see my point so I will just rest my case on this topic after this post. 

My point has been that preaching that we must give 10% of our gross income is not in the Bible. It's not the tithing talked off in the bible, and it is this LIE I am against. Why you keep saying that I am blaming all Pastors is beyond me. What I am saying is Pastors who tell people this are not speaking God's truth, because God does not say that. 

Twisting God's words is wrong. Putting numbers in God's message to us to give too is wrong. I did not say do not give to Pastors. I said Pastors should not be the only recipients. I do not understand how I can repeat this one message over and over and over again, and all I keep hearing from you is "not all Pastors are crooked". I agree. I then tell you which ones are. The ones who sorta kinda change the message and leave out the important bits that would be to tell their congregation, "Take 10% or whatever your are able to give and not just bring it to church, but give some of it to the poor, the widowed...as Jesus willed that we do". That message is hardly preached as much as that of tithing. And if you ask 90% of people what tithing is, they will tell you it is giving 10% of their income to the church period. They will not tell you it is taking 10% of their increase and splitting it between the church, a few charities, some goodies to take to a nursing home, and a food drive for the soup kitchen or food assistance society. Tithing to many doesn't even bring to mind the idea of partaking in the feast with others especially the needy and giving thanks and praise to God. A very important part of the tithing message that is lost in the loud shouting of the message to give it all to the church. 

I am not lying. I am not accusing all preachers. I am not making up anything. Rather, I am taking the words you and others are posting and holding them up against the light of Scripture and showing where they stray from the truth. The words "God wants 10% of our gross income" have been echoed over and over, but I am yet to see this pointed out in Scripture. 

Question: Are you a Pastor/preacher? I ask because you have held onto that "accusation" with such passion even after I have pointed out that not all are guilty as if I stepped on your toes. I never said those who take money are doing wrong (Didn't I say a few times "I'm not saying don't give to the church? Which goes to show I have no problem with it otherwise why would I even suggest it?). If you are truly reading my posts and not just glossing over them to find out what it is I am saying that you don't agree with, you will see that I gave an example of my friend's pastor who lives in the way you described of true servants of God: Those who do work and give back and feed/clothe/care for those Jesus would have us give to. I mentioned him getting donations out of the free will of his congregation. In case I wasn't clear, I was applauding this man's integrity. 

I also have been saying that instead of just about suffocating folks with "you must give 10% of your gross income" if Pastors simply said "Give what the Spirit leads you to give, and do not forget to hold onto some so that you may give to the poor"...then that would be more in accordance to the Bible's directive on how to tithe. 

Shimmie, please read my posts. Stop focusing on what I said about Pastors who seem to fit the description "Satan masquerading as an angel of light". And yes, they do exist! I do not view Pastors as gods beyond rebuke or fault so when I see wrongdoing, I will call it out. I never said ALL Pastors are liars, but I did say that any that tells me something but cannot back it up with Scripture or explain the reason for the deviation from what it is that is written gets the side-eye from me and I will not partake of what they are serving.

The last two or so posts you have written have dismissed what I've said to caution me about putting all Pastors in a dark pit, when I have done no such thing. And I do not take back anything I have said. I even talked to God about it because I feel at peace for sharing His truth.

Like I said, if you read my posts, you would see I have only challenged the doctrine that leads people to think they must give 10% of their gross income to the church. Yes, I went hard, because the more I heard it, the more I felt a need to expose the folly of such teaching. But I do think there's something very wrong if churches feel it is OK to guilt people into giving 10% to the church. YOU may not feel pressured by that doctrine but it is a wrong doctrine and many who are still young in their walk have not got to the place where you are, so it would be nice if they learned the truth. Let the Spirit lead them to give to those God wills that they give to, not be bullied into doing it by some made up rule demanding they give 10% of their bring-home pay and a bit more to the church.

I apologize if you were offended by anything I wrote and pray that we may all be vigilant and always armed with the Sword of the Spirit (ie the Word of God) so that we may be ready to confront untruths even when they come to us undercover.  

Goodnight all and God bless.


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## Nonie (Dec 2, 2010)

topsyturvy86 said:


> This conversation has gone in different directions and I don't know where to start but i'll try from this post.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I just want to answer you Topsy coz I hadn't seen your post. I have never been afraid that if I tithe I won't have. And I do tithe. Only I don't define tithing as giving 10% of my gross income to the church. I do give w/o knowing where tomorrow's bounty will come from, because as I've shared before, I live by Matthew 6:25-33. 

I mentioned leaving your home destitute to give to the church simply because the message "God expects 10% of your gross income" doesn't sound like it gives one a choice. It sounds more like it's something you have to do or you let God down. And so IF one isn't able to give 10%, then what? Just disobey this week? Or borrow so you can meet your quota. You say it's not a do or die thing, but if I had the energy to go back to the times when the definition of tithing I don't agree with has been mentioned, it was always in contrasts to Poohbear's message that it is not what God says. Pooh's message was "give what you are able" and I support that. But as Shimmie said, there was no way around it--which in to me sounds  like saying you have no choice. 

You ask how do you give to those without shelter? Food drive, volunteering to help out in a soup kitchen, going shopping on a whim and picking up a few cans of food for lady at the grocery store whom you saw having to put them out of her basket because the change she had fell short. Taking that coat and those gloves you no longer wear and giving to the poor homeless man who was shivering in the cold. Trust me, if you ask God to show you how you can give to those Jesus told us were most deserving, He will show you. 

I have not once said members should not give to the church. I will reiterate what I've been saying all along...*giving it all (that 10% or whatever!) to the church is not what we've been commanded to do*. If we do that, we disobey the word of God which seems to encourage a ministry of giving to the poor. If you read all my posts you would have seen I said that if preachers stopped putting numbers on what people should give but let them give as they are able/willing, and encouraged that they also remember the poor in their giving--making it clear that they didn't expect 10%--then methinks that institution would never lack money to do the things you speak of. It's the greed/selfishness that seems to forget the poor or to nominate oneself as the divider to the poor when Jesus would have us do our part in giving to the poor (not indirectly but directly) that makes me kinda twitch. Again the made-up doctrine is what I'm against, not giving to the church.


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## topsyturvy86 (Dec 2, 2010)

Nonie said:


> I just want to answer you Topsy coz I hadn't seen your post. I have never been afraid that if I tithe I won't have. And I do tithe. Only I don't define tithing as giving 10% of my gross income to the church. I do give w/o knowing where tomorrow's bounty will come from, because as I've shared before, I live by Matthew 6:25-33.
> 
> I mentioned leaving your home destitute to give to the church simply because the message "God expects 10% of your gross income" doesn't sound like it gives one a choice. It sounds more like it's something you have to do or you let God down. And so IF one isn't able to give 10%, then what? Just disobey this week? Or borrow so you can meet your quota. You say it's not a do or die thing, but if I had the energy to go back to the times when the definition of tithing I don't agree with has been mentioned, it was always in contrasts to Poohbear's message that it is not what God says. Pooh's message was "give what you are able" and I support that. But as Shimmie said, there was no way around it--which in to me sounds like saying you have no choice.
> 
> ...


 
I tithe my net and not my gross; meaning I tithe after tax because that is my disposable income. However, I do not disagree with those that tithe out of their gross. It is as the spirit leads (ETA on this, the author of the purpose driven life, Rick Warren tithed 90% of his proceeds from the book to charity. He apparently usually tithes 90% of his income to his Church). If you have nothing, you have nothing, you can't give a percentage of what you don't have so you don't have to borrow to pay your tithe. As I said, it's not a do or die thing, it's a choice. You can choose to or not to pay your tithe without breaking any law. You seem to be fighting against a 'rigidity' of Christianity that isn't even there!

We are commissioned to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey the everything God commanded (Matthew 28:16 - 20). How do you personally do this? We have been commanded to love our neighbour as ourselves, feed the poor, and so on. How far can you reach going it alone? I care about children poor and destitute in areas in the world that you can't even imagine the living conditions. I'm not able to go physically to those Countries to do anything about it as it isn't my calling right now. To help, through my Church I am able to sponsor a child in Uganda by giving a certain about of money every month which allows someone on the ground provide his needs; helping him get a good education, buying what he needs, ensuring he has a good childhood and things like that. My church has helped in alleviating a whole village in Uganda from poverty, feeding street Children in India and giving them the childhood they deserve, rescuing those that are sex trafficced and helping them get their dignity and lives back on track, helping the elderly in the community, gives Christmas hampers and love to the prostitutes, and a few more. They are allowing themselves to be God's hand and feet spreading the love of Christ around the world. My previous church used to plant churches in difficult places like Turkey and to win souls for Christ. If everyone stopped tithing to the church, they would only be able to do half of what they can do. A lot of the things we're called to do are near impossible to do on our own and that is why we are a body. I do not in a million years see how giving to the church is disobeying the word of God. The church is Jesus's bride of whom He is very passionate. How can giving to enrich the bride of Christ be against the word of God?


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## Crown (Dec 2, 2010)

Tithing/giving : Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

 With all the verses presented here to explain it, don’t forget :

 Mat. 15: 3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ 5 *But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God*,’ 6 *they are not to* ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. *Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition*.

1Tim. 5 : 4 But if a widow has children or grandchildren, *these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family* and so repaying their parents and grandparents, *for this is pleasing to God*.

[FONT=&quot]8[FONT=&quot] Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, *and especially for their own household*, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.[/FONT][/FONT]


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## Nonie (Dec 2, 2010)

topsyturvy86 said:


> *I tithe my net and not my gross; meaning  I tithe after tax because that is my disposable income. However, I do  not disagree with those that tithe out of their gross. It is as the  spirit leads (ETA on this, the author of the purpose driven life, Rick  Warren tithed 90% of his proceeds from the book to charity. He  apparently usually tithes 90% of his income to his Church*). *If  you have nothing, you have nothing, you can't give a percentage of what  you don't have so you don't have to borrow to pay your tithe. As I said,  it's not a do or die thing, it's a choice. You can choose to or not to  pay your tithe without breaking any law. You seem to be fighting against a 'rigidity' of Christianity that isn't even there!*
> 
> We are commissioned to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing  them in the name of the Father, Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching  them to obey the everything God commanded (Matthew 28:16 - 20). How do  you personally do this? We have been commanded to love our neighbour as  ourselves, feed the poor, and so on. How far can you reach going it  alone? I care about children poor and destitute in areas in the world  that you can't even imagine the living conditions. I'm not able to go  physically to those Countries to do anything about it as it isn't my  calling right now. To help, through my Church I am able to sponsor a  child in Uganda by giving a certain about of money every month which  allows someone on the ground provide his needs; helping him get a good  education, buying what he needs, ensuring he has a good childhood and  things like that. My church has helped in alleviating a whole village in  Uganda from poverty, feeding street Children in India and giving them  the childhood they deserve, rescuing those that are sex trafficced and  helping them get their dignity and lives back on track, helping the  elderly in the community, gives Christmas hampers and love to the  prostitutes, and a few more. They are allowing themselves to be God's  hand and feet spreading the love of Christ around the world. My previous  church used to plant churches in difficult places like Turkey and to  win souls for Christ. If everyone stopped tithing to the church, they  would only be able to do half of what they can do. A lot of the things  we're called to do are near impossible to do on our own and that is why  we are a body. I do not in a million years see how giving to the church  is disobeying the word of God. The church is Jesus's bride of whom He is  very passionate. How can giving to enrich the bride of Christ be  against the word of God?



(I will get to the first paragraph in a bit so below is w/r/t the second paragraph.)

WHEN DID I SAY 'DO NOT GIVE TO THE BRIDE OF GOD'? 

OK let me ask you a question, what is wrong with giving to charities who  do good causes as well as the Bride of God? What is wrong with taking  time out of your life to also play a part in giving as well as giving to  the Bride of God? What is wrong with stepping in to help someone in  need YOURSELF when you see them in need, instead of just folding your  hands because you did your part by giving it all to the church?? Why do  people assume that we are simply supposed to pass the buck to the church  and do nothing? Where do you get this directive from that it should all  fall on the church to take care of the needful? And why the assumption  that as far as tithing is concerned giving to the church is ALL God  wants you to do? In other words, why are you all so obsessed with giving  to the church ALONE? Why is my stating GIVE TO THE CHURCH AS  WELL AS TO THE NEEDY considered going against God's will, or translated  to be "Nonie said the church should get nothing!"????

It is scary how obsessed with giving to the church people are.  I  mean to such a degree that my whole entire point that we must not forget  the needy (something God's Word emphasizes w/o question) gets  interpreted as me suggesting we give nothing to the church.Is it really  "all to the church or might as well not give at all" for some?  Has the  church turned into some idol of sorts so that all sacrifice should be  unto it and it alone, never mind who else outside of the church  could be blessed?

Also you asked "How far can you reach going it alone?" To borrow a line  from the Bible: Oh you of little faith! A child of God never goes it  alone. I am never alone. I told you in my last post to you, that if you  ask God to show you how, He will. When Schindler took it upon himself to  help the Jews escape certain death, he did indeed have to get others to  play along, even though they may not have known the master plan. And by  himself, and I'm sure God's protection, he came up with a plan that  saved the lives of many. He had the wisdom and the will and I believe it  was by God's help that he was able to bring his plan to fruition. "How  far can you reach going it alone?" Do forget the Omnipotence,  Omniscience, Omnipresence of our Father and how He is able to use one to  do great things in His name? Please read Hebrews 11 prayerfully and  know that if you allow God to show you how you can reach far, He will.  Because_If God says pull, He will give you a rope;
If He says ride, He will furnish a horse.
Where God guides, He provides.
_​So again, at the risk of sounding like a broken record , I will repeat:

*MY POINT HASN'T BEEN "DO NOT GIVE TO THE CHURCH A CENT OF YOUR MONEY"  (That is NOT what I've been saying so please people stop putting words  into my mouth!)

MY POINT HAS BEEN DO NOT GIVE TO THE CHURCH AT THE EXPENSE OF/NEGLECTING/FO**RGETTING**/IGNORING THE POOR, THE SICK, THE DESTITUTE...ETC.

And I say this unashamedly or unafraid, because that is the Word of God and not that of man. 

*If you want to just pass the buck to the church and let them handle  it for you, and that's what feels right to you, then by all means do it.  After all, what good would it be to do what bothers your spirit? But at  least you won't be able to tell God when we meet Him that no one ever  pointed this directive out to you. I have planted the seed in someone  I'm sure, maybe someone else will water it...and in time it will bear  fruit. Or maybe it'll wither... But I feel at peace for not having sat  back and not said a thing, when half-truths were being shared as God's  Word. Please do not ask me what half-truths because if you haven't  figured out from what I have written, then I doubt there's any way I can  paint a clearer picture that you can understand. Perhaps it is because  there's no need to understand that because it doesn't really edify.

I do want to thank you Topsy your first paragraph (in bold). First I  want to assure you I DO KNOW there's no rigidity in Christianity, which  is precisely why this whole "God expects 10% of your gross income"  business has my panties in a bunch because that's adding a rigidity to  Christianity I know doesn't belong. THAT "extra topping" is what I am  fighting, not Christianity or God's Word. 

Second, I appreciate the "give freely what you are able" message therein  (which is what Poohbear brought to this discussion and what I have been  in support of all along). 

Lastly, mentioning Rick Warren was a perfect example of someone who not  only follows the example of Paul, but who also lives in the way I wish  all preachers would; not so much give 90% of their income but actually  play a part in giving to the church from their increase too (eg other  jobs) instead of just expecting their salary and the maintenance of the  church to come from just members' contribution."Due to the success of his book sales, in 2005 Warren returned his 25  years of salary to the church and discontinued taking a salary. He says  he and his wife became "reverse tithers", giving away 90% of their income and living off 10%" 
(Nussbaum, Paul (January 26, 2006). "New purpose drives evangelical Warren". Knight Ridder News Service. New purpose drives evangelical Warren | The San Diego Union-Tribune.)​And may God continue to bless Rick and to guide him to bring even more glory to His Name!


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## Nonie (Dec 2, 2010)

Crown said:


> Tithing/giving : Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
> 
> With all the verses presented here to explain it, don’t forget :
> 
> ...



Amen.


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## Laela (Dec 2, 2010)

A 'reverse tither' is giving 90% of their income and keeping 10%; so, a tither is giving 10% and living off 90%. Where did Warren get this from?  I assume the Warrens are doing this consistently (faithfully), if they are living off 10% of their _income_ ?  I don't know where their 90% is going, but  even it's going outside of the church, he and his wife are  faithful tithers of their MONEY.  Tradition or faith?

Just what's so wrong with folks CHOOSING to put THEIR money into efforts by the church? It doesn't make them 'lazy' Christians, just as it doesn't make you cursed if you choose not to tithe 10% of your income.  I believe that's what Topsy is saying. 

Actually, I like what Rick Warren is doing but he's not the only preacher doing this; Fredrick K Price does something similar and lives off less than half of his income. I agree, if more preachers set the example, like Paul, it'll be good. But folks shouldn't have to wait for leaders to show them how to live on God's principles if they have guidance from the Holy Spirit by reading the Bible for themselves.

What do you think about this part of the article, where Warren explains how he increased his tithing, to 'stretch' his faith? 

_"Kay and I became reverse tithers. When we got married 30 years ago, we  began tithing 10%. *Each year we would raise our tithe 1% to stretch our faith*:  11% the first year, 12% the second year, 13% the third year. *Every time  I give, it breaks the grip of materialism in my life. *Every time I  give, it makes me more like Jesus. Every time I give, my heart grows  bigger. And so now, we give away 90% and we live on 10%. That was  actually the easy part, what to do with the money--just give it away,  because I'm storing up treasures in heaven. _*"

SOURCE: http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/2005/10/Rick-Warrens-Second-Reformation.aspx?p=1

*



Nonie said:


> Lastly, mentioning Rick Warren was a perfect example of someone who not  only follows the example of Paul, but who also lives in the way I wish  all preachers would; not so much give 90% of their income but actually  play a part in giving to the church from their increase too (eg other  jobs) instead of just expecting their salary and the maintenance of the  church to come from just members' contribution."Due to the success of his book sales, in 2005 Warren returned his 25  years of salary to the church and discontinued taking a salary. He says  he and his wife became "*reverse tithers*", giving away 90% of their income and living off 10%"
> (Nussbaum, Paul (January 26, 2006). "New purpose drives evangelical Warren". Knight Ridder News Service. New purpose drives evangelical Warren | The San Diego Union-Tribune.)​And may God continue to bless Rick and to guide him to bring even more glory to His Name!


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## topsyturvy86 (Dec 2, 2010)

Nonie said:


> (I will get to the first paragraph in a bit so below is w/r/t the second paragraph.)
> 
> WHEN DID I SAY 'DO NOT GIVE TO THE BRIDE OF GOD'?
> 
> ...



For the first part, you did say/imply that and I quote you "giving it all (that 10% or whatever!) to the church is not what we've been commanded to do. If we do that, we disobey the word of God which seems to encourage a ministry of giving to the poor".

To answer your questions individually, 

* OK let me ask you a question, what is wrong with giving to charities who  do good causes as well as the Bride of God? 

Nothing. and I don't think anyone has said there is anything wrong with this and you will find that a lot of people actually do this. 


*What is wrong with taking  time out of your life to also play a part in giving as well as giving to  the Bride of God?

Again, nothing. I don't think anyone thinks or implied anything like this. I personally believe in tithing other things as well such as your time. 

* What is wrong with stepping in to help someone in  need YOURSELF when you see them in need, instead of just folding your  hands because you did your part by giving it all to the church??

Nonie, nothing. and I can recall anyone saying tithing is about folding your hands having given to the church.

* Why do  people assume that we are simply supposed to pass the buck to the church  and do nothing? Where do you get this directive from that it should all  fall on the church to take care of the needful? And why the assumption  that as far as tithing is concerned giving to the church is ALL God  wants you to do?

Where did you get this idea from??

* In other words, why are you all so obsessed with giving  to the church ALONE? Why is my stating GIVE TO THE CHURCH AS  WELL AS TO THE NEEDY considered going against God's will, or translated  to be "Nonie said the church should get nothing!"????

No one is saying give to the church *alone*

* Has the  church turned into some idol of sorts so that all sacrifice should be  unto it and it alone, never mind who else outside of the church  could be blessed?

Charity starts at home. A good church however touches lives outside of the church as well. 

* ask God to show you how, He will.

I have and He has and still is  He is teaching me to pay my tithe and put my faith and trust in Him. It is on my heart to tithe my time as well.

Noni, you are mixing truth with your prejudice against the church and I hope people reading this will pray and ask God directly for clarification. I rest my case and will not be responding anymore. I pray that each and every person reading this thread seeks clarification from God Himself who promised that if we seek, we will find. I pray that He helps us in our own way worship Him in a way that is pleasing and acceptable to Him. 

Amen . God bless :Rose:


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## Nonie (Dec 2, 2010)

@Laela... For crying out LOUD.    Since you quoted me, I suppose the questions are directed to me. My answers in BLUE. 



Laela said:


> A 'reverse tither' is giving 90% of their income and keeping 10%; so, a tither is giving 10% and living off 90%. Where did Warren get this from?  I assume the Warrens are doing this consistently (faithfully), if they are living off 10% of their _income_ ?  I don't know where their 90% is going, but  even it's going outside of the church, he and his wife are  faithful tithers of their MONEY.  Tradition or faith?




I'm sorry Laela but you and I seem to be on different wavelengths.  In case you haven't been following, NO ONE QUESTIONS THE DEFINITION OF TITHING. Tithing is giving 1/10 = 10% = 0.01 = "a tenth". My post #42 in this thread quotes Deuteronomy and the first line of my first quote is "22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year." So if you're wondering where Rick Warren got that from, er...same place I got my definition from, perhaps? Or maybe a dictionary. Or maybe someone told him. I haven't got the foggiest idea. 

No one questions whether _INCOME_ falls under the umbrella of INCREASE and hence the portion from which our tithe should come. At least I haven't seen it in this thread and I have no argument with that. 

Tithing (that word) implies 1/10 whether those who use it realize this or not. And a tithe in the Old Testament was 0.1 of the increase in produce reaped from the farming (animals, crops). In modern day, tithing is applied to money (mostly) but does not have to be exclusively only about money; it could involve the gifts of old. 

Are  you with me?

Whether the Warrens' practice is tradition or faith, you'd have to ask them. Someone could kneel down by their bed to say a bedtime prayer every single night without fail out of tradition or they could do it out of faith. Only they and God know why they do it, so I cannot answer for the Warrens. *shrug*.




Laela said:


> Just what's so wrong with folks CHOOSING to put THEIR money into efforts by the church? It doesn't make them 'lazy' Christians, just as it doesn't make you cursed if you choose not to tithe 10% of your income.  I believe that's what Topsy is saying.




Oh there's absolutely nothing wrong with people CHOOSING (important word here!) to put THEIR money (another important adjective! Thanks for the emphasis) into the effort of the church. It doesn't make them 'lazy' Christians (Did someone say it did?) just as it doesn't make you cursed if you choose not to tithe 10% of your income.  

I thank you for confirming what I've been saying. People should give what they are able and willing. Or to your words, people should CHOOSE to put THEIR own money into the effort of the church. NO ONE should tell people that God expects them to put 10% of their gross income into the effort of the church. But if each person is free to give as led by the Spirit to give what they are able/willing, then they would be following the directive of the Word of God. 

Let me repeat what I've been saying using your words: PASTORS HAVE NO RIGHT TO CHOOSE FOR PEOPLE THE PERCENTAGE OF THEIR GROSS INCOME THEY OUGHT TO GIVE TO THE CHURCH. If people wish to give the entire tithe to the church, it is their wish and no one should get in the way of what they are willing to do with that tithe. If they want to give part of the tithe to the church and part to charities or other needy causes, again they ought to do what their heart leads them to do. If people decide not to tithe but to just give what they are able and willing to give (remember tithing implies 1/10, so 1/5 or 1/20 or anything other than 10% isn't really a tithe if we're to use the word correctly), again they do this freely and so it is good. 

Perhaps if I quote something that was said in post #30 and #48 you will see the difference of what Topsy or you just wrote and what it is I'm disagreeing with.




> Shimmie said:
> 
> 
> > Anyway in answer to your question, why not give  it all?  Well, God is not asking for it all, only the 10% of our Gross  increase.   That's all.





Shimmie said:


> Nonie, whatever our 'increase' is, God expects  us to give 10% of it.   There's no way around this; even with all of the  scriptures and notations you've shared.



I disagree. Both statements to someone who doesn't know better would put pressure on that child of God. "If God expects and I don't deliver, or I'm not able, to then I disappoint God." It also ignores the fact that when tithing was talked about in the Old Testament, when the tithe was brought to God's dwelling place, the one who brought it was to eat it in God's presence along with his household and to invite the homeless and the poor to partake in the feast. Tithing meant I who brought 1/10 ate what I brought along with others giving praise and worship to God. (Refer to post #42 in this thread for the Bible reference). That is the Bible's definition of tithing. Also I would like you all to think about something: back in those days, farmers were not the only laborers. There were builders, carpenters, etc. Nowhere do we see them being asked to bring 1/10 of their creations. :scratchch It does make you wonder if perhaps tithing mightn't have been something that applied to just land while everyone else simply brought *offerings*. 

As I shared in post #61:




> 1 The LORD said to Moses, 2  “*Tell the Israelites to bring me an offering. You are to receive the  offering for me from everyone whose heart prompts them to give.* 3 These are the offerings you are to receive from them: gold, silver and bronze; 4 blue, purple and scarlet yarn and fine linen; goat hair; 5 ram skins dyed red and another type of durable leather[a]; acacia wood; 6 olive oil for the light; spices for the anointing oil and for the fragrant incense; 7 and onyx stones and other gems to be mounted on the ephod and breastpiece.


 Exodus 25: 1-7

Notice, this isn't about produce or cattle or their firstfruits nor is it about a tenth thereof. So this isn't about tithing. This is about bringing all sorts of offerings to God's dwelling place, the Tabernacle. I think offering comes closer to defining the giving we do in church, because the tithing of the Bible is more like a Thanksgiving/Worship event/meal from produce. And notice God Himself says Moses is to receive from anyone "whose heart prompts them to give". Nothing in that piece of scripture says God expects His people to give, let alone give a fixed amount of their increase. 





Laela said:


> Actually, I like what Rick Warren is doing but he's not the only preacher doing this; Fredrick K Price does something similar and lives off less than half of his income. I agree, if more preachers set the example, like Paul, it'll be good. But folks shouldn't have to wait for leaders to show them how to live on God's principles if they have guidance from the Holy Spirit by reading the Bible for themselves.




Your first line echoes what I and others have said. Not sure what your last line is about. I am not sure whether your last line is just a BTW or directed at me which would be redundant because I personally don't wait for leaders to show me how to live which is why I never bought into this lie that "God expects 10% of your gross income" because I get my truth from God's Word. But you have to remember that there are new Christians every day and those in places of leadership need to be held accountable to preach the truth and to follow in the example of Christ lest they mislead those who haven't yet moved to solid food. 





Laela said:


> What do you think about this part of the article, where Warren explains how he increased his tithing, to 'stretch' his faith?
> 
> _"Kay and I became reverse tithers. When we got married 30 years ago, we  began tithing 10%. *Each year we would raise our tithe 1% to stretch our faith*:  11% the first year, 12% the second year, 13% the third year. *Every time  I give, it breaks the grip of materialism in my life. *Every time I  give, it makes me more like Jesus. Every time I give, my heart grows  bigger. And so now, we give away 90% and we live on 10%. That was  actually the easy part, what to do with the money--just give it away,  because I'm storing up treasures in heaven. _*"
> 
> ...



I think that is a very noble and praiseworthy thing they did.


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## makeupgirl (Dec 2, 2010)

OK so in reading the recent post about tithing, here is something that I found from gotquestions.com.  It provides scripture and insight of what tithing is.  If we don't get anything from this, then lets remember the verse 2 Cor 9:7 “Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver” 

What does the Bible say about Christian tithing?

*Question: "What does the Bible say about Christian tithing?"

Answer: *Many Christians struggle with the issue of tithing. In some churches tithing is over-emphasized. At the same time, many Christians refuse to submit to the biblical exhortations about making offerings to the Lord. Tithing/giving is intended to be a joy and a blessing. Sadly, that is sometimes not the case in the church today.

Tithing is an Old Testament concept. The tithe was a requirement of the law in which all Israelites were to give 10 percent of everything they earned and grew to the Tabernacle/Temple (Leviticus 27:30; Numbers 18:26; Deuteronomy 14:24; 2 Chronicles 31:5). In fact, the Old Testament Law required multiple tithes which would have pushed the total to around 23.3 percent, not the 10 percent which is generally considered the tithe amount today. Some understand the Old Testament tithe as a method of taxation to provide for the needs of the priests and Levites in the sacrificial system. The New Testament nowhere commands, or even recommends, that Christians submit to a legalistic tithe system. Paul states that believers should set aside a portion of their income in order to support the church (1 Corinthians 16:1-2).

The New Testament nowhere designates a percentage of income a person should set aside, but only says it is to be “in keeping with income” (1 Corinthians 16:2). Some in the Christian church have taken the 10 percent figure from the Old Testament tithe and applied it as a “recommended minimum” for Christians in their giving. The New Testament talks about the importance and benefits of giving. We are to give as we are able. Sometimes that means giving more than 10 percent; sometimes that may mean giving less. It all depends on the ability of the Christian and the needs of the church. Every Christian should diligently pray and seek God’s wisdom in the matter of participating in tithing and/or how much to give (James 1:5). Above all, all tithes and offerings should be given with pure motives and an attitude of worship to God and service to the body of Christ. “Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver” (2 Corinthians 9:7).


my words:

Tithing is a form of worship and I will admit that some Sundays I don't tithe (usually because I'm not physically at church) but I've learned over the years and from studying the bible that God wants us to give from our hearts, not just tithing but in everything that we give.  Give from your heart.  If we let our head lead in this, Satan starts to interfere and direct us in the wrong path.  tithing is still something I struggle with a lot, because sometimes it's selfish on my part and sometimes it's fear.  However, even if you're unable to give anything at all, God knows our hearts.  

My advice is to talk to the Lord about this.  It's about him at the end of the day.  So. let him lead and guide your path and your wallet.  What we have, it's from him anyway, so he knows how we should proceed in this very touchy subject.


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## makeupgirl (Dec 2, 2010)

Laela said:


> *Wanted to share this breakdown of the Old Covenant vs the New Covenant, for anyone interested in doing their own study (the numbers of both sections correspond with one another):*
> 
> 
> *OLD COVENANT*
> ...


 
Thanks for posting this.  This I did not know.  Or I was taught but didn't obtain it.


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## Nonie (Dec 2, 2010)

topsyturvy86 said:


> For the first part, you did say/imply that and I quote you "giving it all (that 10% or whatever!) to the church is not what we've been commanded to do. If we do that, we disobey the word of God which seems to encourage a ministry of giving to the poor".
> 
> To answer your questions individually,
> 
> ...



I do not take back what I said. I will in fact repeat it: Nowhere in the Bible are we told to take 10% and give to the church and the reason I kept harping on the fact that we are not to give to the church _alone_ is because several times when I suggested that we shouldn't forget the needy too the responses to my statements seemed to not want to accept that the church can get less than 10% and we'd still be in good standing if we gave some of that 10% to the needy. The only directive w/r/t 10% aka tithing  of our land's increase is: to  put it aside for God and partake of that very same 10% with those in our  household and with thee needy in God's presence and to worship Him as  we do this. 

So yes, I stand by my words that you quoted and by the words in the post you were responding to which I will reiterate here:*MY POINT HASN'T BEEN "DO NOT GIVE TO THE CHURCH A CENT OF YOUR MONEY"   (That is NOT  what I've been saying so please people stop putting words   into my mouth!)*

* MY POINT HAS BEEN DO NOT GIVE TO THE CHURCH AT THE EXPENSE OF/NEGLECTING/FO**RGETTING**/IGNORING THE POOR, THE SICK, THE DESTITUTE...ETC.*

* And I say this unashamedly or unafraid, because that is the Word of God and not that of man. *​As far as taking things to church (God's house), Exodus 25 probably is the closest I can come to that is parallel to "giving to the church" and what the Bible says is the giving should be from everyone whose heart prompts him to give. KJV reads:



> Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of  every man that giveth it willingly with his heart ye shall take my  offering.


 vs 2

Yes, I do have a prejudice but not against the church so again please ask instead of putting words into my mouth. I have a prejudice against Satan's cohorts masquerading as angels of light. I have a prejudice against inaccuracies served in the guise of God's truth. I do test the spirits to see if they are of God and I have a prejudice against any that fail the test. 

If my message were that you are to give nothing to the church because the church is evil, then you could make that conclusion about me having a prejudice against the church. But not once have I said that. What I have said is God does not expect you to give 10% of your gross income to the church and that preachers who preach this way are not preaching from God's Word and that I will not feed off their teachings.

So again, do not accuse me falsely. My prejudice has not been against the churches such as the ones you talked about and that you have been a part of. From what I read, they were abiding by God's Word and I pray blessings continue to abound in that place. In my last post to you, I said that as long as people are not being coerced then they are abiding by the Word and I do praise God for their generous hearts. It's the coercion with a man-made rule that I've been against from the time I started posting this and against all preachers who continue to bully people with. 

I AM NOT PREJUDICED AGAINST THE CHURCH. And yes, like you, I pray that those who read this thread ask for the Spirit's clarification because obviously there's communication breakdown somewhere or I'd not be sounding like a broken record having to echo myself over and over again.

ETA: For those who are getting the wrong end of the stick from my second sentence in bold, this one:
*MY POINT HAS BEEN DO NOT GIVE TO THE CHURCH AT THE EXPENSE OF/NEGLECTING/FO**RGETTING**/IGNORING THE POOR, THE SICK, THE DESTITUTE...ETC.
*​If you had two kids and you gave one at the expense of the other or gave one and neglected the other or gave one and forgot the other or gave one and ignored the other, you'd be basically leaving the second child with nothing...and that's what I was saying is not the message of scripture w/r/t tithing or giving.


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## Poohbear (Dec 2, 2010)

Laela said:


> Scripturally, this is what God has to say about 'giving':
> 
> Matthew 25:
> 31. When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
> ...


No one here is against giving. Tithing and giving are two different things. This Scripture supports giving, however, it does NOT support tithing in the way today's society sees it (10% of gross income). 



Laela said:


> We also are the new Levites, with Jesus being our High Priest, thus improving the Old Covenant, not doing away with it. Jesus fulfilled The Law.


Yes, we are the new Levites in a sense... yes, Jesus is our High Priest, and yes, Jesus came to fulfill the Law... however, there are things that are done away with... for instance, how come we are not required to do animal sacrifices anymore for our wrongdoings? Because JESUS CAME TO FULFILL THAT LAW! We no longer have to do that because Jesus sacrificed His life as the precious Lamb of God.  All these things of the Old Covenant were done to prove their love for God until the Messiah or Savior came.  



Laela said:


> Just what's so wrong with folks CHOOSING to put THEIR money into efforts by the church? It doesn't make them 'lazy' Christians, just as it doesn't make you cursed if you choose not to tithe 10% of your income.  I believe that's what Topsy is saying.
> 
> Actually, I like what Rick Warren is doing but he's not the only preacher doing this; Fredrick K Price does something similar and lives off less than half of his income. I agree, if more preachers set the example, like Paul, it'll be good. But folks shouldn't have to wait for leaders to show them how to live on God's principles if they have guidance from the Holy Spirit by reading the Bible for themselves.
> 
> ...


Rick Warren is not God nor our standard for how we should give. That's good that he decided to give 1% more each year. That doesn't mean everyone can do that, and it doesn't mean God requires us to give more and more and more! That is what God put on Rick Warren's heart to give. Good for him. God just requires us to give PERIOD. No set standards, restrictions, no limitations, no quotas, nothing! We have freedom in Jesus to give as we are able, not grudgingly and not with force (2 Corinth. 9:7). 

And nothing is wrong with folks choosing to put their money into the efforts by the church. Just don't make it like 10% of gross income is God's standard requirement of giving when it's not, and then make it like you're robbing God and will be cursed with a curse for not doing so. We can give more or less.


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## Poohbear (Dec 2, 2010)

Shimmie said:


> Nonie, your theory is not coming from God's Word as you wish it to be.   It's simply not.   Again, I am not contending with you.  However, there is no way that you can validate your personal theory; there is much amiss in what you  have shared as God's word, it's not validated.
> 
> You have a strong will about what you choose to do with your money when you wish to do so, and it is not based upon faith or the word of God.  It's based upon what you've made up your mind to follow which is your own free will and your own right.       You are entitled to your free will.
> 
> ...


Your theory is not coming from God's Word. You are bashing Nonie for things she did not say nor imply with her posts. You keep telling her it's her choice what she does and that what she does is not of faith nor of God... how is that? I see that what Nonie does IS according the God's word. How come her choice isn't aligned with God's will according to you? You are not God.




Nonie said:


> So  Shimmie since I MUST obey the LAW then if I gave more I'd be breaking  the law, right? Coz that's NOT what I was told to give. I've been told  10% so I'd be breaking the LAW by giving a different percentage from  what is asked. And if my household is hungry because of the economy and  I'm behind in bills so that I cannot afford to pay them, feed my kids  and give ten percent, then I should just leave my household without so I  can meet this demand, right? After all there's no way around this as  you say.
> 
> The way you all are so RIGID with this ten percent when  I never heard Jesus or the apostles command it makes me wonder if you  think God sets parameters. This is probably why some people become  ministers because after all, they don't have to work (like Paul did or  serve like Jesus did. Never mind the fact that both Paul and Jesus were  setting examples for them to follow). All they have to do is wait for  Sunday since they will get 10% from everyone. And what more does this  message say, God only wants 10% so the other 90% is all yours to do with  it as you please. They don't have to give anymore because "God only  wants 10%". Do you see how crazy that sounds?
> 
> ...



Nonie, BEAUTIFULLY SAID!!!


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## miss cosmic (Dec 3, 2010)

i havent read all the posts yet (on the 3rd page) but i just wanted to share what i believe.

1.if you believe that a pastor is teaching you godly truth and you willingly sit under his teaching and anointing, then you need to give to that church first, and then to whatever charities and families you feel led to give. if you sit under a pastors anointing and yet refuse to trust him with your money then why are you sitting under his anointing in the first place? move churches and find a church where you can be 100% committed to the work that is being done. dont give because the pastor told you to, give because of the kingdom work that is being done that you want to see growing.

2. when you choose a church, choose one that is transparent in its handling of money (after determining that is a bible-believing church of course). God does not call us to be stupid, so if your pastor tells you that how the church spends the money is not your concern, you need to be worried and seek God and his will regarding you serving and being taught by that pastor. the church that i go to shares the church's financials with the church at large every quarter, so that there is transparency.


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## maxineshaw (Dec 8, 2010)

I was drawn to this thread for the sake of it's original topic, so forgive me for breaking the flow of the current conversation.  Having added that disclaimer,  I came across this website called "Blue Letter Bible" and it contains a list of things not found in the bible.  It's very interesting.  

You can find the original link here.  However, I have taken the liberty of posting the list provided by the website. Each item on the list has another link that offers an explanation of the given phrase.  


*Sayings*
 Moderation in all things.
 Once saved, always saved.
 Better to cast your seed....
 Spare the rod, spoil the child.
 To thine ownself be true.
 Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
 God helps those who help themselves.
 Money is the root of all evil.
 Cleanliness is next to godliness.
 This too shall pass.
 God works in mysterious ways.
 The eye is the window to the soul.
 The lion shall lay down with the lamb.
 Pride comes before the fall.
*Miscellaneous*
 The Three Wisemen
 The Sinner's Prayer
 Wedding Vows
 The Seven Deadly Sins

To view the explanations, you can click on the given link above.  

Now, I haven't read all of this thread.  It's 2:30 in the morning, and I can't take too many words.  From what I've skimmed, I do have a few things to add....



Shimmie said:


> :Rose:  I know it's difficult to grasp, even to accept much less understand about the measure of tithing [gross vs net], however, God speaks plainly about the Gross of our increase when it comes to tithing; it's indeed the gross not the net
> 
> 
> God makes it plain that it is the firstfruits of our increase that He is expecting from us.  The firstfruits comes from the top [the gross], not the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th layer...it's from the top.
> ...



First of all, I know I'm way past a day late and a dollar short, but WELCOME BACK *SHIMMIE*!!!! I took a four month or so hiatus from LHCF, and I think you got back on here like the day after I stopped logging in.  I so enjoy reading your posts.  

But here is my commentary on this post:

I feel as if the portion of your posts which I've taken the liberty of bolding and putting in red absolutely deserved repeating.  I am one of those people who has problems with certain churches.  I do recognize that not everyone is corrupt, and there are people who are performing the work of God in earnest and truth.  

However, when it concerns my money I have a huge issue with where it is going and how it is being spent.  I think someone commented earlier in thread about having to give money to the church you go to as something that is not found in the bible.  I can wholeheartedly testify to the truth of their statement.  

I do not belong to a church...a physical one anyhow.  A truer church is not the building, but the people.  We (usually) just so happen to gather together in the physical house.  Since I do not belong to a physical church and have not for many years, I used to struggle with what to do with my tithes.

I asked God if it was okay for me to send my tithes to the Gideon's.  I explained that I felt uncomfortable sending my tithes to any church that I wasn't a member of, and I loved that I actually could see the work that the Gideon's performed.  He let me know that it was perfectly fine for me to do as I desired (through the presence of His Holy Spirit, fyi  ).  So, since then I have sent my tithes to the Gideon's.  The Gideon's were my "selected ground who truly do the work of God", and I am extremely happy about my decision as well as God's answer.


As to the nature of gross vs. net.  Well....I *used*to look at it as the first thing that I touch.  I wrote "used to" because I was actually in the middle of typing something out and I started to question the logic of my statement.  This was what I was originally going to post:



> "Firstfruit" is the first thing that I touch.  The first thing that I touch is net.  When I get a paycheck, the first fruit of my labor is...



I actually stopped before the ellipsis because that's when something so obvious dawned on me.  The first fruit is the gross.  _Caesar _has simply already taken what is his and left us with what I think you (Shimmie) refered to as the 2nd layer (I can't remember what it was...I edited it out for the sake of space).  For those of us who don't work under the table it's simply an automatic deduction.  That doesn't lessen what we are commanded to give the Lord.  

I realized that when I am given a gift...let's say $200 cash...I have always given God the full 10%.  What makes the gross of my paycheck any different?  

Although I may seem like I am fully convinced, I am not.  I asked the Lord for clarity, but I am not fully up to whatever understanding that He wants me to have.  I will pray more, (actually read this thread), and do some biblical research before I fully reassess my position.  





nappystorm said:


> ^^^Thanks for that post. The Bible is sooo confusing to me. You really broke it down, answered some questions I had, and taught me something new.



If you are ever confused about the nature of the bible, I highly recommend asking God (or even the Holy Spirit directly as I do sometimes) for clarity.  

I am *absolutely by no means* disregarding whatever revelation that you got from the person's post, but I am simply offering my experience.  When I first starting reading the bible, the King James version specifically, I just could not understand it AT. ALL.  However, I asked the Lord for discernment, and it was given to me.  I don't even view it as me reading the KJV, but the Lord is reading it for me.  I'm hooked on phonics, fo realz when it comes to the KJV


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## maxineshaw (Dec 8, 2010)

Question: "What does the Bible say about Christian tithing?"

Answer: Many Christians struggle with the issue of tithing. In some churches tithing is over-emphasized. At the same time, many Christians refuse to submit to the biblical exhortations about making offerings to the Lord. Tithing/giving is intended to be a joy and a blessing. Sadly, that is sometimes not the case in the church today.

Tithing is an Old Testament concept. The tithe was a requirement of the law in which all Israelites were to give 10 percent of everything they earned and grew to the Tabernacle/Temple (Leviticus 27:30; Numbers 18:26; Deuteronomy 14:24; 2 Chronicles 31:5). In fact, the Old Testament Law required multiple tithes which would have pushed the total to around 23.3 percent, not the 10 percent which is generally considered the tithe amount today. Some understand the Old Testament tithe as a method of taxation to provide for the needs of the priests and Levites in the sacrificial system. The New Testament nowhere commands, or even recommends, that Christians submit to a legalistic tithe system. Paul states that believers should set aside a portion of their income in order to support the church (1 Corinthians 16:1-2).

The New Testament nowhere designates a percentage of income a person should set aside, but only says it is to be “in keeping with income” (1 Corinthians 16:2). Some in the Christian church have taken the 10 percent figure from the Old Testament tithe and applied it as a “recommended minimum” for Christians in their giving. The New Testament talks about the importance and benefits of giving. We are to give as we are able. Sometimes that means giving more than 10 percent; sometimes that may mean giving less. It all depends on the ability of the Christian and the needs of the church. Every Christian should diligently pray and seek God’s wisdom in the matter of participating in tithing and/or how much to give (James 1:5). Above all, all tithes and offerings should be given with pure motives and an attitude of worship to God and service to the body of Christ. “Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver” (2 Corinthians 9:7).

Source: What does the Bible say about Christian tithing?


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## maxineshaw (Dec 8, 2010)

Nonie said:


> *Not a single place in the whole Bible is money used in tithing.* And the only place money is mentioned w/r/t tithing is in the part about selling your produce to save you having to lug a load but you do not tithe that money. Instead you buy more produce for tithing. And again, the tithing of which we reading is different from the tithing people speak of today. So what if we aren't farmers? Why can't we buy the produce and have a meal together with those without during our assemblies?




To quote the scripture:

Mark 12:41-44

41 Now Jesus sat opposite the treasury and saw how the people put money into the treasury. And many who were rich put in much. 42 Then one poor widow came and threw in two mites,[j] which make a quadrans. 43 So He called His disciples to Himself and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury; 44 for they all put in out of their abundanc


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## Ivonnovi (Dec 8, 2010)

Noah took 2 of each animal onto the Ark.
He in fact took 2 of each unclean animal and 10* of each clean animal.  (*or 7, at this hour, I don't feel like looking the exact number up)


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## Dellas (Dec 8, 2010)

Forgive and forget


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## Guitarhero (Dec 8, 2010)

That Abraham was a pagan.  In light of recent threads on the holidays and problem arising, I so wished to make a thread discussing this issue about christianity having so-called elements of paganism but I am going to wait.  Gosh, if we don't know our faith now, what will happen if someone takes our scriptures and we can no further read and learn of those and the traditions handed down except for rote and set memory?  At least the essence and tenets of the faith?  We'll be in trouble.

Just Genesis: Was Abraham a Pagan?

Monday, December 21, 2009
Was Abraham a Pagan?
First, it is incorrect to apply the term “pagan” to Abraham since the term comes from ancient Rome. (I've written about the contribution of Biblical Anthropology in the determination of anachronisms here.)

Second,  the Online Etymological Dictionary explains that "pagan," from classical Latin means "villager, rustic, civilian," from pagus "rural district," originally "district limited by markers," related to pangere "to fix, fasten."   Pagan, like villain, boor, rustic, expresses a class hierarchy from a time when common country folk were regarded by the urban elite as being of low birth, having rude manners, and lacking urbanity and sophistication. This doesn't apply to Abraham who was of the ruling class, maintained his own army, and two households and probably his own priest.

What is meant by calling Abraham a pagan?  In the religious sense the term referred to adherence to the old gods after the Christianization of Roman towns.  So what is meant is this: Abraham was an idol worshiper. This is what Fr. Hart believes on the basis of little biblical and historical support. He writes: “Abram was a pagan, a worshiper of idols, until God revealed Himself to him, and revealed His purpose through him. The text is clear that he had, until then, worshiped his father's gods.”

The verse to which the Fr. Hart is referring is Joshua 24:2: “In olden times, your forefathers – Terah, father of Abraham and father of Nahor – lived beyond the Euphrates and worshiped other gods.”

Nothing is said here of Abraham worshiping other gods. Further the implication is that Terah, whose ancestors came from Africa and Canaan, fell into worshiping contrary to his fathers’ tradition while living “beyond the Euphrates.”  This is historically accurate since Abraham's Horite ancestors never worshiped the moon god, Sin, as was done in Ur and Haran.

Further, the Joshua passage must be understood in the context of the Deuteronomistic History, which begins in Deuteronomy and ends in II Kings. These books share a common concern with idolatry and place the covenant at Shechem at precisely the location where God appeared to Abraham in 3 Persons (Gen. 18).
Posted by Alice C. Linsley at 2:44 AM
Labels: Abraham


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## Crown (Dec 8, 2010)

> Originally Posted by *Nonie*
> 
> 
> _*Not a single place in the whole Bible is money used in tithing.*  And the only place money is mentioned w/r/t tithing is in the part  about selling your produce to save you having to lug a load but you do  not tithe that money. Instead you buy more produce for tithing. And  again, the tithing of which we reading is different from the tithing  people speak of today. So what if we aren't farmers? Why can't we buy  the produce and have a meal together with those without during our  assemblies?_





MaxJones said:


> To quote the scripture:
> 
> Mark 12:41-44
> 
> 41 Now Jesus sat opposite the treasury and saw how the people *put money into the treasury*. And many who were rich put in much. 42 Then one poor widow came and threw in two mites,[j] which make a quadrans. 43 So He called His disciples to Himself and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have *given *to the treasury; 44 for they all put in out of their abundanc



Quoting the scripture :
Mark 12.44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; *but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living*.  

It was giving (she gave all), not tithing (10%).


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## Guitarhero (Dec 8, 2010)

Shimmie said:


> You've presented them as 'takers' only [provided that they receive 'food' as their pay and not money].    With all of the scripture you've shared, you've come forth with the _appearance _of condemnation for 'all' Pastors who receive the tithes of money to their Churches.



I truly agree with this and remember some pastors who held full-time jobs outside their pastorship.  They looked so tired because these people are on-call all day, all night...right after work, sometimes breaking into their workday, morning, noon, and all weekend long for 365 days of the year.  One of them from undergrad wasn't even married and I often wondered if it were due to all of his responsibilities.    Hopefully, they've been growing in congregation to provide for him because he's an awesome person and fully dedicated.  Most do not get rich off a minister's salary and barely break even, especially when they have a wife and kids.


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## maxineshaw (Dec 8, 2010)

Crown said:


> Quoting the scripture :
> Mark 12.44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; *but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living*.
> 
> It was giving (she gave all), not tithing (10%).



Which she did with money.

I think you aren't using the word "given" in the literal sense that it means.  When I pay my tithes, I am *giving *a tenth of my income to the Gideons.  To give is to cause to have.  

The bible does not distinguish her reasoning, and I don't feel it would matter anyway.  If she gave all she had, wouldn't that cover the specific 10% as well?


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## Crown (Dec 8, 2010)

MaxJones said:


> Which she did with money.
> 
> I think you aren't using the word "given" in the literal sense that it means.  When I pay my tithes, I am *giving *a tenth of my income to the Gideons.  To give is to cause to have.
> 
> *The bible does not distinguish her reasoning, and I don't feel it would matter anyway.  If she gave all she had, wouldn't that cover the specific 10% as well?*



No! I don’t think so.

It’s not about her reasoning, it’s about what she did : she gave.

You can choose to interchange the 2 words if you want (I did it), but it’s not the same thing.

If she gave all, she was not tithing, she was giving.

Tithing is a specific term, meaning a tenth (10%), and it’s not really about money (Nonie explained it very well in this thread).

Giving is more general, and it’s about money, goods, time, talent…

I am not arguing with you, but you put Mark 12:44 as example to prove Nonie was wrong. This quote is about giving not tithing.

[FONT=&quot]Blessings![/FONT]


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## maxineshaw (Dec 8, 2010)

Crown said:


> No! I don’t think so.
> 
> It’s not about her reasoning, it’s about what she did : she gave.
> 
> ...





She made an _emphatic statement_ about something in God's *holy *word (paying tithes with money)  that I don't believe is true.  That is why I singled out that one line.  Either it's in the bible, or it isn't.  I am talking about the fact that money existed and was used as a means to pay tithes.  BTW, when I use the word reasoning, I *am *referring to the "give vs. tithe".  If she is commanded to tithe and chooses to _give_ all she has, she is in effect paying her tithes as well and with money.  "Giving" all that she has does not absolve her of God's commandment.  How can she still tithe if she doesn't have anything to do it with?  She's already paid it.  And with cash.  Which was my only point on the matter.  

But yeah, agree to disagree.

Abased minds continue.


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## maxineshaw (Dec 8, 2010)

Crown said:


> Quoting the scripture :
> Mark 12.44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; *but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living*.
> 
> It was giving (she gave all), not tithing (10%).



By the way, thank you for including the remainder of the scripture.  I have no idea how it got cut off.


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## Poohbear (Dec 9, 2010)

I agree with Crown... the widow woman was giving from the heart, not tithing.



MaxJones said:


> She made an _emphatic statement_ about something in God's *holy *word (paying tithes with money)  that I don't believe is true.  That is why I singled out that one line.  Either it's in the bible, or it isn't.  I am talking about the fact that money existed and was used as a means to pay tithes.  BTW, when I use the word reasoning, I *am *referring to the "give vs. tithe".  If she is commanded to tithe and chooses to _give_ all she has, she is in effect paying her tithes as well and with money.  "Giving" all that she has does not absolve her of God's commandment.  How can she still tithe if she doesn't have anything to do it with?  She's already paid it.  And with cash.  Which was my only point on the matter.
> 
> But yeah, agree to disagree.
> 
> Abased minds continue.


Now I see you are using PAYING a tithe instead of GIVING a tithe.  I believe that's the difference right there.  Tithing is PAYING money to the church, not GIVING money to the church. Jesus has PAID it all! We owe God nothing monetarily. It's all about spiritual matters now. GIVE money, goods, and services from the heart, not under compulsion.


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## Ivonnovi (Apr 5, 2011)

Bump     

 (Naw, really I just thought to revisit this thread, and decided to revive it)


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## ebaby (Apr 9, 2011)

Will a man rob God???  From many of these posts I say yes he/she will, and then will find a way to make it right in their own minds.  We are surely living in the last days!!!


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