# I don't understand why believers refer to themselves as sinners



## alexstin (Apr 26, 2009)

In the scriptures there is a clear distinction between sinners and the children of God.  I hear a lot from believers that "we are all sinners".  In my eyes, a sinner is someone who has no relationship with the Father and willfully "practices" sin which is completely different from the believer who may sin but ask for forgiveness or acknowledge the conviction of Holy Spirit and keep moving forward. Referring to myself as a sinner would be just as detrimental _to me_ as referring to myself as stupid, hopeless, or unworthy of love.

 So for those who see themselves as sinners even though they are a part of the Body of Christ could you tell me where this mindset stems from? I've just always wondered, that's all.


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## mellowmel (Apr 26, 2009)

When I read this I thought about the Donnie McClurkin song "We Fall Down". "For a saint is just a sinner who fell down, but he didn't stay there, and got up."  As a Christian I believe at times I sin or we all do at times. But we must get up and know we can't stay there and be content with being there. We must get up and get back on track to abiding by God's word. Some Christians may say well I don't sin. But, I don't think there is anything that we all do right. A little eye roll, mumbling at work, mad someone is driving too slow or cut you off, etc. Would Jesus do that? As a Christian we can discern when we have fallen short and know that we have to do better. So in short, yes, I'm a sinner but everyday I'm becoming more Christ-like. We will always only be Christ-like and never Christ. But I'm not continuing to live in my sin that I know is wrong, I'm changing more and more everyday.


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## divya (Apr 26, 2009)

Here is the reason why...

*Romans 3:23* - _For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. _
*1 John 1:8 *- _If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
_
Christ died for all of us, even though we are sinners. We have never lived a perfect life as He did. It is only because of the grace of God - for the sacrifice of Jesus Christ - that we are saved.


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## kayte (Apr 26, 2009)

> But I'm not continuing to live in my sin that I know is wrong, I'm changing more and more everyday.



and that is admirable and of God ..

but I dare say in spite of my own best efforts to do the same I am not sinless...
everyday there is some sin I've committed... 
& I,Kayte need to repent and ask forgiveness on a daily basis
or I would not need Christ
The Lord 's mercies are fresh every morning!

Peter was believer..yet...still a sinner...he denied Christ!
Paul acknowledged a thorn in the side ....{temptation }
to keep reliant upon God
Abraham lied about his wife Sarah
The bible is filled with believers who were sinners 

David {a man after God's own heart} is a classic example of a believer ...devoted to God and yet..SINNER
he lusted after another mans wife, got her pregnant and had her husband killed
yet God still loved him  

because 
remember we do not fight ourserlves but there is an enemy
"the adversary the devil stalks like a roaring lion


the only human who was without sin
was/is Christ


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## alexstin (Apr 26, 2009)

divya said:


> I suppose you may have an issue with my statement in another thread. So here is the reason why...
> 
> *Romans 3:23* - _For *all have sinned*, and come short of the glory of God. _
> 
> Christ died for all of us, even though we are sinners. We have never lived a perfect life as He did. It is only because of the grace of God - for the sacrifice of Jesus Christ - that we are saved.




Your statement brought it back to the forefront of my thoughts but I've wanted to ask before. I take no issue with it. I know many believe this way and am just curious as to why. I acknowledged in my first post that we all have sinned since giving our hearts to God so that's not in question what I question is the scriptural basis for declaring that the redeemed  still carry the title sinner.

A few verses up in the same chapter of Romans Paul says: *But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner?*(rom 3:7)

 How do you differentiate between those that the Father calls sinners in the scriptures and those He calls righteous?


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## kayte (Apr 26, 2009)

> But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner?(rom 3:7)



This is actually a rhetorical/ therotical question..it's not being asked literally
it's for sake of arguement or Paul is playing devil's advocate

Paul is saying a {new} believer might ask the same question, you OP are asking and so he goes on...to explain how some Christians might try to reason erroneously 
they should not be called sinners under God's law

but Paul answers that is not realistic becasue according to God
As it is written, "Not even one person is righteous.
Romans 3:10

 that is the context of that question in Romans
He is asking this hypothetically it to make a strong point...
to illustrate basically anyone who asks that question is misniformed
because he answers it with....Romans 3:7 with Romans 3:10   

He goes on to say............

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held _accountable to God_. *20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.*

hth


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## alexstin (Apr 26, 2009)

kayte said:


> As it is written, "Not even one person is righteous.
> Romans 3:10




So as a believer you don't consider you are righteous in Christ?


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## divya (Apr 26, 2009)

alexstin said:


> Your statement brought it back to the forefront of my thoughts but I've wanted to ask before. I take no issue with it. I know many believe this way and am just curious as to why. I acknowledged in my first post that we all have sinned since giving our hearts to God so that's not in question what I question is the scriptural basis for declaring that the redeemed  still carry the title sinner.
> 
> A few verses up in the same chapter of Romans Paul says: *But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner?*(rom 3:7)
> 
> How do you differentiate between those that the Father calls sinners in the scriptures and those He calls righteous?



Well, I think it is important to realize our condition as sinners and thus our need for the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 3 actually goes on to talk about it...


7Someone might argue,* "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?"* 

8Why not say—as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say—"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.

 9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better*? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin

10As it is written:"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 
12All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."...

19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 
22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 
24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 
26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.*


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## alexstin (Apr 26, 2009)

kayte said:


> This is rhetorical/ therotical question..it's not being asked literally
> it's for sake of arguement or Paul is playing devil's advocate
> 
> *Paul is saying a human might ask the same question, you OP are asking and so he goes on
> ...



There is no one righteous without God since our righteousness in and of itself would be like filthy rags.  We can't be righteous through the law I think we agree on that.


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## kayte (Apr 26, 2009)

> So as a believer you don't consider you are righteous in Christ?


rather ...Christ is righteous in me,a sinner...


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## divya (Apr 26, 2009)

Sorry to double post what kayte already did...but I do understand the question alexstin. It's a really good one. I believe that when people make that statement, it is only a recognition of our state in and of ourselves. As you point out alex, any righteousness in us is through God...


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## alexstin (Apr 26, 2009)

divya said:


> Well, I think it is important to realize our condition as sinners and thus our need for the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 3 actually goes on to talk about it...
> 
> 
> 7Someone might argue,* "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?"*
> ...


*

Verses 21 and 22 are what I'm referring to. 
So in scriptures such as these do you believe God is talking to you as the righteous?:

Prov 11:31If the righteous will be rewarded in the earth, How much more the wicked and the sinner!

Prov 13:22 A good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children, And the wealth of the sinner is stored up for the righteous.*


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## divya (Apr 26, 2009)

alexstin said:


> Verses 21 and 22 are what I'm referring to.
> So in scriptures such as these do you believe God is talking to you as the righteous?:
> 
> *Prov 11:31If the righteous will be rewarded in the earth, How much more the wicked and the sinner!
> ...



Of course! In these verses, I understand the sinner to be the one who does not accept Christ. The righteous refers to those sinners saved by grace.


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## kayte (Apr 26, 2009)

> There is no one righteous without God since our righteousness in and of itself would be like filthy rags.


I'm confused...
with God in our lives and hearts..

Christians STILL have a hard time holding rightousness together
and so  if your question is can we define ourselves as righteous and no longer define ourselves as sinners......

lol... I'd like to meet that righteous person...I don't believe such a person exists
except for the one who died for us

ETa
I just read read you other post
yes I agree with below



> Of course! In these verses, I understand the sinner to be the one who does not accept Christ. The righteous refers to those sinners saved by grace



_Semantics_

the differentiation is _believer _and _non-believer_
as to the righteous and non-righteous
but the rightoeus are still acknloweldged by our God as sinners even though we have been saved through Christ from the wages of sin


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## alexstin (Apr 26, 2009)

divya said:


> Sorry to double post what kayte already did...*but I do understand the question alexstin.* It's a really good one. I believe that when people make that statement, it is only a recognition of our state in and of ourselves. As you point out alex, any righteousness in us is through God...




Okay, I was like....are y'all understanding me or what?


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## kayte (Apr 26, 2009)

> Okay, I was like....are y'all understanding me or what


I got it! 

_finally _


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## divya (Apr 26, 2009)

alexstin said:


> Okay, I was like....are y'all understanding me or what?



 Yes and I think it's really good to clarify these issues. It made me go back and really think about what Christ in me really means.   We who are called righteous in the Word are those sinners who are no longer a slave to sin, to the flesh. For me, at least, when I say we are all sinners, I mean that we all have that struggle against the flesh. But through Christ we are not bound to sin or its wages, we can live righteousness through Him and His gift to us is eternal life. 

*Romans 6:16-23*
16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

 17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

 18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

 19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

 20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

 21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

 22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

_ 23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord._


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## alexstin (Apr 26, 2009)

kayte said:


> I'm confused...
> with God in our lives and hearts..
> 
> Christians STILL have a hard time holding rightousness together
> ...



Yes, we, as believers do struggle but I just don't see that struggle as equal to the unredeemed man, the "sinner" and I don't see them as equal because God went out of His way to make a distinction between those who are "of Him" and those who are "of the wrold".

_For me_, if He took the time to make a distinction between the "sinner" and the "righteous" then I want to make sure that what comes out of my mouth aligns with that for He alone has "wrapped me with a robe of righteousness".


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## alexstin (Apr 26, 2009)

divya said:


> Yes and I think it's really good to clarify these issues. It made me go back and really think about what Christ in me really means.   We who are called righteous in the Word are those sinners who are no longer a slave to sin, to the flesh. *For me, at least, when I say we are all sinners, I mean that we all have that struggle against the flesh*. But through Christ we are not bound to sin or its wages, we can live righteousness through Him and His gift to us is eternal life.
> 
> *Romans 6:16-23*
> 16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
> ...



You know, I figured it might be a matter of semantics because we all do really believe that God has done something special in us that we couldn't do on our own.  Thanks for helping me to see "why". As I said, I've been wondering about that for a long time. I'm still not going to call myself a sinner though.


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## Ramya (Apr 26, 2009)

alexstin said:


> You know, I figured it might be a matter of semantics because we all do really believe that God has done something special in us that we couldn't do on our own.  Thanks for helping me to see "why". As I said, I've been wondering about that for a long time. I'm still not going to call myself a sinner though.



I agree. I'm not with that "I'm a sinner" stuff simply because I believe that I can speak that into existence. I'm good on that


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## delitefulmane (Apr 26, 2009)

My pastor back at home poses this question in church! He asks all the sinners to stand/raise their hands. Then, he asks all the sinners saved by grace to stand. He goes on to explain that Jesus Christ died for ours sins. So we are still sinners but we are now SAVED BY GRACE!!


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## alexstin (Apr 26, 2009)

Ramya said:


> I agree. I'm not with that "I'm a sinner" stuff simply because *I believe that I can speak that into existence. *I'm good on that



Exactly! Anything spoken over yourself is a declaration which shapes your future actions and thoughts.


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## divya (Apr 26, 2009)

alexstin said:


> You know, I figured it might be a *matter of semantics* because we all do really believe that God has done something special in us that we couldn't do on our own.  Thanks for helping me to see "why". As I said, I've been wondering about that for a long time. I'm still not going to call myself a sinner though.



It is, but you've made a point here... 

Maybe we should say "sinner saved by grace" instead! That way we leave no room for confusion!


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## mellowmel (Apr 26, 2009)

divya said:


> It is, but you've made a point here...
> 
> Maybe we should say "sinner saved by grace" instead! That way we leave no room for confusion!


 
I agree. I like the "sinner saved by grace" thing. Because I am no longer a sinner in terms of a non-believer not even attempting to change. But I am a sinner, now a believer, saved by the grace of God and learning new things to become more Christ-like daily.


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## BeautifulFlower (Apr 26, 2009)

Didnt read through the thread but...

We are all sinners and will remain that way until the day we die. 

However what makes us different is we are repentant. In God's eyes, there are two people, repentant and unrepentant....believers and unbelievers. But we are all sinners and though we may be repentant, believers, we are still sinners.


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## mymane (Apr 29, 2009)

I don't believe we,Christians, (*those who make a habit of becoming more Christ-like etc.*) are sinners because we don't purpose in our hearts to continually sin. We WERE sinners who have been saved by grace. Yes, we may have areas where we struggle and fall into temptation and commit a sin. However, we are able to confess, repent, and be forgiven.  I don't think God is in Heaven calling us His "sinners saved by grace." Another way I look at it is from the perspective of a parent. We teach our kids to discern right from wrong so they won't grow to be bad children, teens etc. But even the most well-mannered child, armed with that knowledge, will do something bad from time to time, yet their parent won't say "hey i have a bad kid because they did xyz." Ultimately they're good because they strived to do so, but they slipped up. They learn from their mistakes (hopefully) so they won't slip up again, and keep it moving. It's the same with us Christians. God takes into account our flesh and knows that we will slip up from time to time (not purposely). That will not make us sinners BECAUSE we have been saved and BECAUSE we make a practice of being Christ-like, not a practice of sinning. I believe that if you make a HABIT of sinning with no kind of remorse then yes you are a sinner. That's just pure disrespect. And if you became a christian yet your lifestyle has never been any different compared to when you weren't saved, then I think that's more fitting of a "christian" being a sinner.  

Sorry this post is so long. I wanted to say something the other day but couldn't put it clearly. But tonight I was reading 1 John 3:1-10(Life Application Bible), and it made everything perfectly clear for me. I think like someone else said that when most christians call themselves a sinner, it's semantics. Therefore, I hope these verses clears that up. Someone else please chime in. I hope I conveyed my take on it. Thanks for reading. (As you can see I don't post much, lol)


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## alexstin (Apr 29, 2009)

mymane said:


> *I don't believe we,Christians, (those who make a habit of becoming more Christ-like etc.) are sinners because we don't purpose in our hearts to continually sin. We WERE sinners who have been saved by grace. Yes, we may have areas where we struggle and fall into temptation and commit a sin. However, we are able to confess, repent, and be forgiven.  I don't think God is in Heaven calling us His "sinners saved by grace." *Another way I look at it is from the perspective of a parent. We teach our kids to discern right from wrong so they won't grow to be bad children, teens etc. But even the most well-mannered child, armed with that knowledge, will do something bad from time to time, yet their parent won't say "hey i have a bad kid because they did xyz." Ultimately they're good because they strived to do so, but they slipped up. They learn from their mistakes (hopefully) so they won't slip up again, and keep it moving. It's the same with us Christians. God takes into account our flesh and knows that we will slip up from time to time (not purposely). That will not make us sinners BECAUSE we have been saved and BECAUSE we make a practice of being Christ-like, not a practice of sinning. I believe that if you make a HABIT of sinning with no kind of remorse then yes you are a sinner. That's just pure disrespect. And if you became a christian yet your lifestyle has never been any different compared to when you weren't saved, then I think that's more fitting of a "christian" being a sinner.
> 
> Sorry this post is so long. I wanted to say something the other day but couldn't put it clearly. But tonight I was reading 1 John 3:1-10(Life Application Bible), and it made everything perfectly clear for me. I think like someone else said that when most christians call themselves a sinner, it's semantics. Therefore, I hope these verses clears that up. Someone else please chime in. I hope I conveyed my take on it. Thanks for reading. (As you can see I don't post much, lol)



To the bolded, exactly...there's a distinct difference that God has made and so I line my words up with His.   There is no scriptural basis for referring to the redeemed man as a "sinner". Have we all sinned, yes.


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## divya (Apr 29, 2009)

alexstin said:


> To the bolded, exactly...there's a distinct difference that God has made and so I line my words up with His.   There is no scriptural basis for referring to the redeemed man as a "sinner". Have we all sinned, yes.



Actually, even Paul referred to himself as a sinner. In fact, the *chief* of sinners. 

*1 Timothy 1:15*  - _This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save *sinners; of whom I am chief.*_

The key is understanding that we are sinners saved by grace.


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## alexstin (Apr 29, 2009)

divya said:


> Actually, even Paul referred to himself as a sinner. In fact, the *chief* of sinners.
> 
> *1 Timothy 1:15*  - _This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save *sinners; of whom I am chief.*_
> 
> The key is understanding that we are sinners saved by grace.




Paul also said it's better to remain as he is, single, even though God ordained and blessed marriage as something good.  God made a distinct difference between the righteous and the sinner. Scripture supports scripture and you will not find a biblical basis for calling redeemed man a sinner.  I just keep it simple and declare over myself what God has already said.

As I said, I was just curious. We can agree to disagree.


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## ChelzBoo (Apr 29, 2009)

we sin everyday.
thats why we must ask for forgiveness daily.
we usually categorize sins.
but eventhough we are all gods children... non the less we are still sinners.
praise the lord for loving us anyways.


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## divya (Apr 29, 2009)

alexstin said:


> Paul also said it's better to remain as he is, single, even though God ordained and blessed marriage as something good.  God made a distinct difference between the righteous and the sinner. Scripture supports scripture and you will not find a biblical basis for calling redeemed man a sinner.  I just keep it simple and declare over myself what God has already said.
> 
> As I said, I was just curious. We can agree to disagree.



Yes, we can disagree because for me, the situations are simply not comparable. In 1 Cor 7, Paul spoke about himself and those like him, who have the gift of remaining single. In 1 Timothy 1, however, he recognized his condition as a sinner.  This applies to all of us as human beings. Scripture does support scripture.  Therefore one cannot ignore that Paul referred to himself as a sinner, and that the Scriptures state that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. (1 Timothy 1:15/Romans 3:23)   We were born into sin and shapen in iniquity. 2 Thessalonians 2:7.  The only human who ever walked this earth without sin is Jesus Christ. And because of the fact that we are sinners, there is never a day when we as Christians stop needing the saving grace of Jesus Christ.


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## MrsQueeny (Apr 30, 2009)

I understand what everyone was saying. When I talk to people who are confused about Christ, I let them know that I too am a sinner but I am redeemed by the Love of Christ.  That doesn't mean I am perfect. It means I am constantly seeking Him to be more like Him.  But I refer to myself in many ways like, Child of the Most High, Victorious, Overcomer, and Redeemed.  Let the redeemed of the Lord say SO!!! Amen Great discussion ladies.  Q


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## alexstin (Apr 30, 2009)

divya said:


> Yes, we can disagree because for me, the situations are simply not comparable. In 1 Cor 7, Paul spoke about himself and those like him, who have the gift of remaining single. In 1 Timothy 1, however, he recognized his condition as a sinner.  This applies to all of us as human beings. Scripture does support scripture. * Therefore one cannot ignore that Paul referred to himself as a sinner, and that the Scriptures state that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. (1 Timothy 1:15/Romans 3:23)   We were born into sin and shapen in iniquity. 2 Thessalonians 2:7.  T*he only human who ever walked this earth without sin is Jesus Christ. And because of the fact that we are sinners, there is never a day when we as Christians stop needing the saving grace of Jesus Christ.




It is comparable, imo, as Paul said I wish all would remain as I do but each one has his gift. He's speaking of all believers but recognizes that the grace may not be there for everyone. He's not speaking only to those who are graced in that area or he never would have made mention of  this "gift"  of grace nor would he have followed by mentioning the unmarried and the widows and wishing they remain as he is.


I hope it is clear that I, in know way, ignore the scriptures and I have agreed and agree with the premise that we are all born into sin and have sinned. Where we differ is what we declare over ourselves. If I understand, correctly, you believe because you sin you are a sinner (albeit saved by grace) and I don't see any scriptural reference for God_ declaring_ you as such.


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## Ladybelle (Apr 30, 2009)

Lovely discussion. I must say that I agree with OP. We are either sinners or saints, we cannot be both at the same time. Although I once loved the song by Donnie McClurkin, it's tenants are not based on scriptural evidence. A saint is not a sinner who fell down. 

There is a key & distinct difference between the righteous saint and a sinner. 

*sinner:* a breaker of God's law that's headed for death and destruction who has not been saved & who's eternal destination is hell. 

*saint:*  continously tries to fulfill the requirements of Christ's teachings and now stands set aside for His holy prupose with his eternal salvation secured.one who has been saved (confessed Jesus as Lord,etc).

Saul who later became Paul is talking about him having to be blinded (acts 9:4-18) to see his sins for his conversion to become a saint and other men who professed to be of God & thought they could see but still had sin. (John 9:39-41)

Someone said earlier - we were all once sinners saved by grace.  The key word is here is "were" or "once".   The use of that word does have relevance. One cannot be saved and be a sinner at the same time, you are either one or the other. Once you become saved you escape the pitfalls of being a sinner.  If there were not a key distinction between a sinner and someone who is saved, there would have been no need for Jesus to die. His purpose in death were to *save sinners* from eternal damnation. "save sinners"   Hence the reason why there cannot be saved sinners- this would be a complete contradiction of the death of Jesus Christ for the very sake of sinners. 

I am saved therefore I am not a sinner.God saved me from that and I'm so glad he did!   I could list tons of scriptures to prove my belief but the word tells us all to search the scriptures for ourselves to find out what is true. I would suggest all to do that and find the truth and let every word be established by two or three witnesses.  

Thanks OP!!


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## BeautifulFlower (Apr 30, 2009)

After thinking and reading, I think I will have to change my mind on this one. We do still sin but, you're right, it would be incorrect to *classify *ourselves as sinners. We should believe in our righteous in Jesus Christ rather than our sin. This will give many the impression that our sin is acceptable to Christ when His will for our lives is to live holy and sanctified. I believe that will put many Christians in an improper frame of mind. We are born-again, sancitified, justified by God. I guess my thinking is...if I was a stripper once upon a time and now I am no longer a stripper but working a respectable job, I would tell people I used to be a stripper but it would be senseless to say I am a stripper. My occupation has changed. 

*1 Corinthians 6 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.*




alexstin said:


> It is comparable, imo, as Paul said I wish all would remain as I do but each one has his gift. He's speaking of all believers but recognizes that the grace may not be there for everyone. He's not speaking only to those who are graced in that area or he never would have made mention of this "gift" of grace nor would he have followed by mentioning the unmarried and the widows and wishing they remain as he is.
> 
> 
> I hope it is clear that I, in know way, ignore the scriptures and I have agreed and agree with the premise that we are all born into sin and have sinned. Where we differ is what we declare over ourselves. If I understand, correctly, you believe because you sin you are a sinner (albeit saved by grace) and I don't see any scriptural reference for God_ declaring_ the redeemed man sinner.


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## alexstin (Apr 30, 2009)

prettyfaceANB said:


> After thinking and reading, I think I will have to change my mind on this one. We do still sin but, you're right, it would be incorrect to *classify *ourselves as sinners. *We should believe in our righteous in Jesus Christ rather than our sin. This will give many the impression that our sin is acceptable to Christ when His will for our lives is to live holy and sanctified.* I believe that will put many Christians in an improper frame of mind. We are born-again, sancitified, justified by God. I guess my thinking is...if I was a stripper once upon a time and now I am no longer a stripper but working a respectable job, I would tell people I used to be a stripper but it would be senseless to say I am a stripper. My occupation has changed.



Very good point! Many saints are crippled because they are too "sin conscious" instead of focusing on their righteousness.

 Pertaining to your stripper example, I always cringe when ppl say they are recovering alcoholics. They may not have had a drink in 10 years but  they speak death over themselves by declaring they're alcoholics(though they've recovered). Should we be surprised when they succumb to what they've been speaking all this time and take another drink?


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## Crown (Apr 30, 2009)

Sinner and sin is like :
alcoholic and drink.
Someone can drink, but he is not an alcoholic.
I *was* a sinner.
With Jesus-Christ, I am no more a sinner.
A righteous is not a sinner, but can sin.

Very interesting, thank you OP!


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## divya (Apr 30, 2009)

alexstin said:


> It is comparable, imo, as Paul said I wish all would remain as I do but each one has his gift. He's speaking of all believers but recognizes that the grace may not be there for everyone. He's not speaking only to those who are graced in that area or he never would have made mention of  this "gift"  of grace nor would he have followed by mentioning the unmarried and the widows and wishing they remain as he is.
> 
> 
> I hope it is clear that I, in know way, ignore the scriptures and I have agreed and agree with the premise that we are all born into sin and have sinned. Where we differ is what we declare over ourselves. If I understand, correctly, you believe because you sin you are a sinner (albeit saved by grace) and I don't see any scriptural reference for God_ declaring_ you as such.



Hmmm..still not understanding what you are stating at all in the first paragraph. My statement regarding _one_ ignoring that Paul referred to himself as a sinner wasn't directed at you in particular. Yes, I do believe, like Paul, that I am a sinner. However, the Scriptures point out that we are saved by grace. Guess to me, just because the Scriptures describe believers as righteous does not change that we are sinners who need the Lord. We sin daily and thus daily need the saving grace, rather than once saved always saved approach. Maybe that's where the discussion is going.

Prettyface...you make a good point. Maybe this is partly semantics as well. It's one things to recognize one's condition as a sinner due to being human and another to classify yourself a sinner alone. If one cannot recognize themselves as a sinner, how then can one truly understand that they are constantly in need of Jesus Christ?


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Apr 30, 2009)

alexstin said:


> In the scriptures there is a clear distinction between sinners and the children of God.  I hear a lot from believers that "we are all sinners".  In my eyes, a sinner is someone who has no relationship with the Father and willfully "practices" sin which is completely different from the believer who may sin but ask for forgiveness or acknowledge the conviction of Holy Spirit and keep moving forward. Referring to myself as a sinner would be just as detrimental _to me_ as referring to myself as stupid, hopeless, or unworthy of love.
> 
> So for those who see themselves as sinners even though they are a part of the Body of Christ could you tell me where this mindset stems from? I've just always wondered, that's all.




The Middle East.  It's a way to remain humble and be ever mindful of the frailties of man.  We all sin and must repent, daily.  If I only look upon the good of myself, then I become arrogant and will soon see no wrong in myself and will have redeemed myself.  The bible is not going to give simplistic answers.  A sinner is can refer to those who have turned around, back to G-d.  The distinction is between those who have not returned.  Career-sinner or occasional repentent sinner?  LOL.

I believe this mindsest emanates from the early Church origins and asceticism and monasticism developed in N. Africa...and far back into Judaism.  We're told to persevere until the very end.  Only then will one see if they go up or down.  Mark 13:13, Hebrews 12:14, Galatian 6:8, II Thessalonians 2:13

For another topic, tho...someone mentioned the "law."  There's a distinction in that as well.  But keep in mind, the Law is the Decalogue...the Ten Commandments.  Can't be a righteous person without obeying this 'law.'  Jesus never changed the law.  Christianity is built upon the 10 Commandments. The first is to remind us to worhip the only One True G-d.  Since we have a propensity or nature towards sin, we are reminded of what to avoid.  It's a guide for those who sin.


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## Crown (Apr 30, 2009)

Prov. 23:17 Let not thine heart envy *sinners*: but be thou in the fear of the LORD all the day long.
  Psalm 104:35 Let the *sinners* be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.
  Rom. 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while *we were yet sinners*, *Christ died for us*. 5:9 Much more then, *being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.*

  James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. *Cleanse your hands, ye your hearts, ye double minded sinners; and purify* .
  Lev. 20:26 And ye *shall be holy* unto me: for I the LORD am holy, *and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.*
  1Pet. 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 1:16 Because it is written, *Be ye holy; for I am holy*.

  1Cor. 1:2 Unto *the church of God* which is at Corinth, to them *that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints*, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
  Phi. 4:21 Salute every *saint* in Christ Jesus. The *brethren* which are with me greet you. 
  1Cor 10:14 Wherefore, *my dearly beloved*, flee from idolatry.
  1John 4:11 *Beloved*, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
  1Pet. 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are over *the righteous*, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
1Thes.  1:7 So that ye were en samples to *all that believe* in Macedonia and Achaia.


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## alexstin (Apr 30, 2009)

divya said:


> Hmmm..still not understanding what you are stating at all in the first paragraph. My statement regarding _one_ ignoring that Paul referred to himself as a sinner wasn't directed at you in particular.
> Oh, okay. I misunderstood
> 
> Yes, I do believe, like Paul, that I am a sinner. However, the Scriptures point out that we are saved by grace. Guess to me, just because the Scriptures describe believers as righteous does not change that we are sinners who need the Lord. *We sin daily and thus daily need the saving grace, rather than once saved always saved approach. Maybe that's where the discussion is going*.
> ...




................


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## Irresistible (Apr 30, 2009)

all I KNOW

Is his MERCIES are NEW EVERY morning!


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## mymane (May 1, 2009)

This is a very good discussion ladies. Like I said in my previous post, what do you think God is calling us? Sinners? Even after He sacrificed His Son for us? If you had to witness to someone, wouldn't it be confusing to say i.e. You're a sinner, confess your sins, repent etc. etc. so you can become a Christian, yet you'll still be a sinner cause you will sin again etc. etc. It just doesn't seem right to keep referring to one's self as a sinner when one has been SAVED. Why get saved?  Yes, Christians commit sins, we will never be perfect on this earth. But we don't make a HABIT out of doing so, not being remorseful for those sins, justifying them etc. That's part of being a sinner. If I do sin, I humble myself to God, confess.......But do I start calling myself a sinner? No. *If I take a drink from time to time, am I an alcoholic? No, because that's not the definition of being an alcoholic. They make a HABIT out of drinking, are addicted, make excuses to justify their excessive drinking etc. So....just some food for thought.
I do know, despite all the differing opinions, God is the head of our lives and we're in the best hands even when we do sin.


*someone pointed this out earlier. Good example.
Thanks for reading.


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## divya (May 1, 2009)

Crown said:


> Prov. 23:17 Let not thine heart envy *sinners*: but be thou in the fear of the LORD all the day long.
> Psalm 104:35 Let the *sinners* be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.
> Rom. 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while *we were yet sinners*, *Christ died for us*. 5:9 Much more then, *being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.*
> 
> ...




Thanks for pointing...so in some verses, we are referred to as sinners and others we are referred to as saints. All about context.


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## kayte (May 1, 2009)

Semantics

the differentiation is believer and non-believer
as to the righteous and non-righteous
but the rightoeus are still acknloweldged by our God as sinners even though we have *been saved through Christ *from the wages of sin 



> Yes, we, as believers do struggle but I just don't see that struggle as equal to the unredeemed man, the "sinner" and I don't see them as equal because God went out of His way to make a distinction between those who are "of Him" and those who are "of the wrold".
> 
> For me, if He took the time to make a distinction between the "sinner" and the "righteous" then I want to make sure that what comes out of my mouth aligns with that for He alone has "wrapped me with a robe of righteousness".



yes but if you read my post again ..I'm agreeing!

there IS a distinction between believer and unbeleived...but BOTH are sinners and as in my post the difference is we as believers/sinners  have the blood of Christ sacrificed for our sin..thus  we are saved from death and gifted with eternal life and best of all live in the house of the Lord forever..GOD HIMSELF will live among us and wipe every tear...and there will be joy and 
the enemy will be destryoed

do you follow?
It's not merely ..well as a Christian.... I can now claim to be among those released from
sin and are now no longer sinners...
no that's NOT IT

because....      
does this mean we are no longer sinners...no!

ALL have sinned and come short..of the glory of God

did you sin yesterday? probably 
did you ask forgivness yesterday?probably

I know I did 

and daily 
_hourly _even need to repent ..
from *SIN*

What it DOES mean is that we have a peace! We have the promises of God and His blessings that surpasses all human understanding because of relationship with God and the gift of Christ and we have a home with Him
We have a place to go to when we are hurt or in trouble or to ask for wisdom
or to crow with joy and praise 

we know we cannot rely on human power because we rely on GOD'S supernatural power.
and we can because CHRIST DIED FOR US...and made us CHILDREN OF GOD

THIS is the difference between 
bel- & non-bel...

We are HIS precious children...the apple of HIS eye
The Lord joys over us with singing 

and the non believer struggles perhaps because as in Ecc...
having had everything except God.... does not offer true  joy and peace and love 

only God can give this

{and God cares for them! for God so loved the world He gave His only Son
{Christ said I came not to for those who do not need me but for those who are lost
it is their/our/ free will and choice}

I humbly offer ..that this might well be the focus rather than the labels?

_rather rejoice..for your names are written in heaven _


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## Crown (May 1, 2009)

Crown said:


> Prov. 23:17 Let not thine heart envy *sinners*: but be thou in the fear of the LORD all the day long.
> Psalm 104:35 Let the *sinners* be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.
> Rom. 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while *we were yet sinners*, *Christ died for us*. 5:9 Much more then, *being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.*
> 
> ...





divya said:


> Thanks for pointing...so in some verses, we are referred to as sinners and others we are referred to as saints. All about context.



Let me clarify :
The first part is before : we all was and was called sinners.
The second part is : coming to Jesus-Christ (cleanse by the blood).
The third part is what we are called after : saints, righteous...
Semantic or not, I am not calling myself a sinner, even if I sin.


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## divya (May 1, 2009)

Crown said:


> Let me clarify :
> The first part is before : we all was and was called sinners.
> The second part is : coming to Jesus-Christ (cleanse by the blood).
> The third part is what we are called after : saints, righteous...
> Semantic or not, I am not calling myself a sinner, even if I sin.



We can agree to disagree. I understand James 4:8 as tell us as sinners to repent from our sins. Since we still to sin, I consider it to apply, as only Jesus walked this earth without sinning.


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## Laela (May 5, 2009)

There is a BIG difference between a Sinner and a Believer: *JESUS*


These are my beliefs:

I AM the righteousness of God. 

I'm NOT a Sinner. 

I have accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior. Righteous people can/do sin but that doesn't make them SINNERS. They quickly repent, changing SIN to SINNED. A sinner is one who has NOT accepted Jesus and continously sins. A righteous man recognizes his shortcoming and acts on it. A sinner cannot because the Holy Ghost isn't in them to convict or make them conscious of their sins.

I DO NOT believe I'm perfect because I believe that I am the righteousness of God. But I am perfect in the eyes of God because of his righteousness. That's where many people go wrong assuming Christians think they're perfect. *We have the blood-bought right to boldly say we are RIGHTEOUS.*

Someone had quoted Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. - THE KEY WORD IS "HAVE"  Children of God quickly repents of their sins and keep it moving....that is why there is room for continual renewing of our hearts, spirit and mind. We don't wallow in sin, like a Sinner does, because we know better.
That's not to differentiate myself or think I  am better than a sinner, either. We should have compassion for them and pray for them that they too will come to get this understanding.


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## empressaja (May 11, 2009)

A sinner to me is someone who sin has dominion over. I am the righteousness  of God in Christ. If my old nature was sin and in Christ I am a new creation then it would be contradictory to identify myself as a sinner. I am a joint heir with Christ.


For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. Roman 5:17

We were sinners because of Adam, we are now righteous because of Jesus's finished work in the cross


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## inthepink (May 11, 2009)

This was a great discussion. I learned a lot in reading this and I'd have to agree that I won't go around calling myself a sinner anymore (nor anyone else).


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## divya (May 11, 2009)

*Are Saints Sinners?*

The Bible itself does say that those who are saved are sinners in that we still sin. Gal. 2:16-17: _“knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners.”_ Here Paul makes the case that there is only one way to be justified, by faith in Christ. Yet we are still sinners though we have right standing with God. The Bible makes this clear. Sin is still present with the believer, we are in transition to eliminate it once and for all.

Speaking to the church James calls believers sinners (4:8) _“Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.”_ James makes this clear as he addresses the church, that if someone no longer tries to walk in holiness or turns from the teachings of Christ he is a sinner. James 5:19-20 _“Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, (he is addressing brethren) and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.”_

For Paul says _“Some men's sins are clearly evident, preceding them to judgment, but those of some men follow later. Likewise, the good works of some are clearly evident, and those that are otherwise cannot be hidden.”_ (1 Tim 5:24-25) Obviously Paul is making a dichotomy of the believers works (both good and bad) cannot be determined until later. Then we will know those done by the spirit and they will be eternal and those done in sin that will be burned up (according to 1 Cor. 3:13-15)

In Rom. 7:15 Paul describes his and our condition.  _“For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.” Here Paul explains his own struggle with sin that is indicative of us all. He does what he does not want to do-sin. And what he wants to do he fails in. He goes on Rom. 7:17 “it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me” V.18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwells no good thing. Notice what Paul says next-V.20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me. V. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.”_ Paul says it is _“ sin that dwells in me “_ twice in this area of Scripture. He then brings it to a conclusion _“O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God-- through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.”_ The body of death is another way of explaining where sin resides

_“Being then made free from sin, ye became servants of righteousness”_ In other words we are no longer under sits dominion, for it to be master over us. It does not mean we are relieved of all sin. As someone once said: “those who claim to be sinless, go ask their wives they’ll tell you the truth.”

Rom. 8:21-25 _“because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.”_ It is our hope but not a reality now, so we wait for the body of sin is delivered by the resurrection.

2 Cor. 5:2 _“For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven”_

Only those who have the new nature know the harm from the old. We groan as we are on earth about our deliverance from the body of death, that brings sin.

1 Cor. 15:54-57:_ “So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” “O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?” The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.”_

Do we still die? Yes, of course, so this means sin is still present with us. The believer’s sin stops at death when the believer is then released from the body of sin.

http://www.letusreason.org/doct49.htm (not advocating this site in general but do agree on this point)


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## Laela (May 12, 2009)

Thanks for posting some good scriptures.. they help underline the difference between being SINLESS and being a SINNER. Saints can/do sin, but that doesn't make them SINNERS. No one is SINLESS but Jesus, but Saints strive to be like him. Prov 4:7 calls for us to get understanding while we strive to get everything else, and I strive to understand God's word. 

The word SINNER itself means one who practices sin... a Saint can't "practice" sin (constantly sin without repenting.) That means this person is no longer a Saint...they have fallen to reprobate mind (backslider) and has moved out of God's grace and have gone back to being a SINNER.


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## divya (May 13, 2009)

Laela said:


> Thanks for posting some good scriptures.. they help underline the difference between being SINLESS and being a SINNER. Saints can/do sin, but that doesn't make them SINNERS. No one is SINLESS but Jesus, but Saints strive to be like him. Prov 4:7 calls for us to get understanding while we strive to get everything else, and I strive to understand God's word.
> 
> The word SINNER itself means one who practices sin... a Saint can't "practice" sin (constantly sin without repenting.) That means this person is no longer a Saint...they have fallen to reprobate mind (backslider) and has moved out of God's grace and have gone back to being a SINNER.



I definitely agree that saints strive to be like Him.   But I do agree with the statement in Galatians which does call us sinners as well.  Not in the sense that we are practicing sin, but only in the sense that we are not sinless and do sin.


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## Blessed2bless (May 13, 2009)

I believe they are referring to our sin nature....


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## JinaRicci (May 16, 2009)

I agree- because we have accepted Christ- we should strive to be like him.  But being humans, we can't escape our sinful nature, if we could then we wouldn't need Christ and wouldn't require grace.  Even on our very best days-we still sin so we're sinners.  

I think also whether or not someone has accepted Christ, they still benefit from his grace.  It's what keeps all of us from being consumed.  But when we accept Him, we're saved from a life of sin with no way out-we accept the gift of salvation.  

There is a difference b/w ppl who choose a life of sin and those who choose to follow God.  The Bible says "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God."  The difference is b/c we have God, we have hope.

ETA:  I think of church like an AA for sinners.  Even though we're believers, we're recovering sinners.


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## Laela (May 21, 2009)

divya said:


> I definitely agree that saints strive to be like Him.   But I do agree with the statement in Galatians which does call us sinners as well.  Not in the sense that we are practicing sin, but only in the sense that we are not sinless and do sin.



I agree with that...and that's what I've said earlier.. We're saying the same thing.

God Bless you.


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## Poohbear (Jan 13, 2010)

Laela said:


> Thanks for posting some good scriptures.. they help underline the difference between being SINLESS and being a SINNER. Saints can/do sin, but that doesn't make them SINNERS. No one is SINLESS but Jesus, but Saints strive to be like him. Prov 4:7 calls for us to get understanding while we strive to get everything else, and I strive to understand God's word.
> 
> The word SINNER itself means one who practices sin... *a Saint can't "practice" sin (constantly sin without repenting.)* That means this person is no longer a Saint...they have fallen to reprobate mind (backslider) and has moved out of God's grace and have gone back to being a SINNER.


Let's say someone tells a lie. They feel really bad about it. They confess to God, ask for forgiveness, and "repent". Next week, they tell another lie. Have they truly repented? Isn't repentance turning away from sin COMPLETELY?  God didn't give any standards on frequencies of how often we do a certain sin (whether it's everyday, weekly, monthly, yearly, etc). He just says "Go, and sin NO MORE" (*John 8:11*). As you said earlier, those who are righteous are those who HAVE sinned, not continue to sin, correct? Does this mean we really are not saved because we continue to sin claiming that we are believers of Jesus Christ? (I'm talking about myself too, not pinpointing you. just something to think about).

Some scriptures to reflect on:

*Luke 13:3*
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

*Acts 2:38-40*
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.  40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

***Romans 6:1-6***
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

*Titus 2:11-14*
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;  14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. 

*Hebews 3:12-13*
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called to day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 

*Hebrews 10:26-31*
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 

 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 
 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 
 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 
 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.  31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

*James 4:17*
17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

*James 5:19-20*
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

*1 John 2:1*
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 

***1 John 3:8-9***
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


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## makeupgirl (Jan 14, 2010)

alexstin said:


> In the scriptures there is a clear distinction between sinners and the children of God. I hear a lot from believers that "we are all sinners". In my eyes, a sinner is someone who has no relationship with the Father and willfully "practices" sin which is completely different from the believer who may sin but ask for forgiveness or acknowledge the conviction of Holy Spirit and keep moving forward. Referring to myself as a sinner would be just as detrimental _to me_ as referring to myself as stupid, hopeless, or unworthy of love.
> 
> So for those who see themselves as sinners even though they are a part of the Body of Christ could you tell me where this mindset stems from? I've just always wondered, that's all.


 

I get what you're saying.  We are saved by the blood of Christ no longer dead in sin.  So were are no longer sinners in God's eyes because we are apart of his family as his children.  What still makes us sinners is we still have the sinful nature that we was born with still residing in us.  Until we receive the glorified body, we're stuck with this corruptable body and there will always be a battle within us (Gal 5:17).  So yes, in a way we are still sinners, even though we have accepted Christ.  

I hope this makes sense.  I go to a bible teaching church and this is how I was taught it.


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## makeupgirl (Jan 14, 2010)

We all still have to be judged at the Judgement seat of Christ to give an account of what we've done good or bad. I have to remember that a lot that there is stuff that I've done that I have to actually stand before him and give an account about.  

There is also the White throne Judgement which is unfornately (sp?) for the unbelievers and they are judged according to their works  (Rev 20:11-13).


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## Renovating (Jan 17, 2010)

makeupgirl said:


> We all still have to be judged at the Judgement seat of Christ to give an account of what we've done good or bad. I have to remember that a lot that there is stuff that I've done that I have to actually stand before him and give an account about.
> 
> There is also the White throne Judgement which is unfornately (sp?) for the unbelievers and they are judged according to their works (Rev 20:11-13).


 
*Revelation 20:11-13 (New International Version)*


*The Dead Are Judged *

*11*Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. *12*And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. *13*The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.




Does this mean we will still have to give an accout for actions we've repented for? erplexed


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## makeupgirl (Jan 18, 2010)

authenticitymanifesting said:


> *Revelation 20:11-13 (New International Version)*
> 
> 
> *The Dead Are Judged *
> ...


 

I'm honestly not sure.  I was wondering the same thing.  I'm going to be out of whack this week but Lord Willing I see next week, I'll ask my Pastor this question.  Very interesting question indeed.


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## Mamita (Jan 22, 2010)

I think it's only a matter of humility and not putting ourselves as high as THEE most high who is righteous holy and perfect. Like some already said we ARE born in sin, what we can control is whether we die in it or not

proverbs 27:2  Let another man praise thee, and not thine own mouth; a stranger, and not thine own lips. 

luke 17:10  So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. 

1st corinthians 10:12  Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 

better be humble till the end

Also in Holiness we make the difference between a "stone cold sinner" and the person seeking the Lord changing their conversation and sinning along the way working on it.


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