# Praying to God for hair vanity?



## softblackcotton (Feb 28, 2011)

Hi Ladies, 

I've prayed earnestly about my hair a few times because my hair is in a dire state no matter what I do. It's breaking and it hasn't grow more than 1/2 inch since last summer. At first i didn't want to pray to God abt my hair because it seems so vain and selfish to pray abt my hair when there are other more significant people and things to pray for in the world. however,  It's been distressing me so much, I decided that I should officially pray abt it. I often find myself coveting the beautiful hair of others which is why I try to stay out of threads that pertain to hair pictures, progress, fotkis, etc. I try to not pray abt my hair  too much because I feel so selfish, vain, and self-conscious doing so.
 Everyone knows that beautiful  hair is not a necessity to life especially to spiritual life; Hair's merely an accessory, yet I still yearn for beautiful long, full hair that seems to forever elude me. I want to feel more confident and attractive. 

I want to know: Are there any other ladies on this forum who pray to God abt hair? How do you feel about praying for "vain" reasons such as hair? Is yearning endlessly for beautiful long healthy hair similar to idolizing hair? Do you think God answers such prayers? 

Sent from my T-Mobile myTouch 3G using Long Hair Care Forum App


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## blazingthru (Feb 28, 2011)

I personally do not think its wrong to pray about having healthy hair as well as a healthy body, we all should strive for those things. As our bodies is the temple and we want to look presentable at all times. However, I think its when it becomes an obsession that it becomes a problem.  I use to pray for my hair (its a longing of mine to have long beautiful hair) but since I  cannot define if its for vanity or just for my own personal pleasure. I chose to focus on other things.  I no longer have my hair on my prayer list. God knows our hearts and will give us the desire of our hearts if its according to his will and purpose in our life, for all we know long hair might be a danger for us. It might be the snare that binds us. Who knows I don't, I just let it be. God knows what is best for me and so I just do my very best to keep my hair healthy have a healthier diet, drink plenty of water, when I pray I pray I am in-tune to the will of God and let it go. One day.  One day I will wake up and find my hair has taken on a new life. Its been six years and I have not made full armpit yet so I know the struggle and right now its no longer a priority to me.  Its a desire that I have in my heart that I just have to wait and see.


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## BeautifulFlower (Feb 28, 2011)

Scripture says in 1 Corinthians 11:13-15
 13 Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering.

This says it all to me. 

And consider this 

Philippians 4:6-7

6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.


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## Guitarhero (Feb 28, 2011)

softblackcotton said:


> *I want to know: Are there any other ladies on this forum who pray to God abt hair? How do you feel about praying for "vain" reasons such as hair? Is yearning endlessly for beautiful long healthy hair similar to idolizing hair? Do you think God answers such prayers? *
> 
> Sent from my T-Mobile myTouch 3G using Long Hair Care Forum App




If you developed a fungus on your toentails (G-d forbid), would you feel vain in asking G-d to heal that?  It's not vain, it's part of your human makeup.  You have hair and it's breaking and is not as comely as you would like.  He cares about the littlest splinter we've gotten and everything more minor than that.


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## Prudent1 (Feb 28, 2011)

softblackcotton said:


> Hi Ladies,
> 
> I've prayed earnestly about my hair a few times because my hair is in a dire state no matter what I do. It's breaking and it hasn't grow more than 1/2 inch since last summer. At first i didn't want to pray to God abt my hair because it seems so vain and selfish to pray abt my hair when there are other more significant people and things to pray for in the world. however, It's been distressing me so much, I decided that I should officially pray abt it. I often find myself coveting the beautiful hair of others which is why I try to stay out of threads that pertain to hair pictures, progress, fotkis, etc. I try to not pray abt my hair too much because I feel so selfish, vain, and self-conscious doing so.
> Everyone knows that beautiful hair is not a necessity to life especially to spiritual life; Hair's merely an accessory, yet I still yearn for beautiful long, full hair that seems to forever elude me. I want to feel more confident and attractive.
> ...


**Raises hand** - ME.
*Are there any other ladies on this forum who pray to God* *abt hair?*
I do but, I pray about pretty much everything- really. I prayed asking God to help me with my hair. That's actually how I found this forum. I'd never heard of it prior to a few years ago. Those scriptures about God caring for the things that matter to me, boldy asking for things, praying all of the times, etc. I take them literally. Over time I have learned that nothing is too insignificant for God even though he is God. A_ personal_ relationship w/ God, the core of real Christianity. We mean just that much to him.
*How do you feel about praying for "vain" reasons such as* *hair?*
I feel like praying for hair could be vain for some ppl like anything else. God the judge, looks at our hearts. If my reason for growing my hair long is to cause others to look at me and pay me compliments(when my 'who' should come from God), to make someone feel less than me and my gorgeous mane (while I make fun or giggle inside about them and their chewed up do), or some other thought such as that, then I have crossed over to vanity/ idolotry. Like Blazinthru said I don't worship my hair. I like sharing and helping others look their best. Life should not be a vicious competition between AA females.
*Is yearning endlessly for beautiful long healthy hair similar to* *idolizing hair?*
Once again it can be depending on the person. If you are neglecting prayer time to DC and conduct S&Ds- you might want to check that. Staying at home and not observing the sabbath to rollerset- check that. If you can't color/spend time with your husband b/c of this forum and the BOGO at ULTA- you might want to check that. If your kids can't remember the last time they ate a nutritious meal prepared by you but your toddler can pronounce Skala and Giovonni- you might need to check that.
*Do you think God answers such prayers? *I know he does. My hair has gone from ear length and crunchy to passing APL and balanced b/c of my heart felt prayers to him. I have even asked him to allow my hair journey to somehow glorify him. 

Listen, the word says in Gen 1:27- 
*27* So God created mankind in his own image, 
in the image of God he created them; 
*male* and *female* he created them. 

He could have very well made 2 men or 2 women but he didn't. He made us equal in worth to men but with very different, distinct roles to fulfill. He made us like all of the girly things we like on purpose. There are variances from female to female but we all have something that we like that makes us feel very attractive and feminine. For a lot of us here that is our crown and glory. Imma keep swanging mine in the the chuurch! Not in a vain look at me way but in a gentle worshipful one.


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## softblackcotton (Feb 28, 2011)

These are some great responses ladies. Thanks!


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## Prudent1 (Feb 28, 2011)

softblackcotton,
BTW, what's ur reggie?

Sent from my SPH-M910 using Long Hair Care Forum App


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## Ladybelle (Feb 28, 2011)

The bible says take ALL things to him in prayer, so if hair is a concern for you or anyone else - I don't find anything wrong with it. I know I've prayed for growth, length & retention- so far, he's answering my prayers. God is good.


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## aribell (Feb 28, 2011)

I don't think it's at all vain, at least not necessarily.  I found LHCF through prayer.  I had reached the end of my rope with my hair and honestly wanted to shave it all off!  I was just like, "Lord, Your word says that a woman's hair is her glory.  I know that you did not create black women to have jacked up hair.  You have not neglected us.  I know that the state of my hair is not your will.  I want hair that I Corinthians 10:15 talks about."  Very soon after I found a book online about proper haircare which led me to LHCF.  Things are coming along quite nicely now.  

The prayer would only be vain if you're praying for longer hair in order to exalt yourself or in a self-centered way.  But Scripture already says that the Lord values hair on a woman, so pray away.


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## Guitarhero (Mar 1, 2011)

^^^^"I know that you did not create black women to have jacked up hair. You have not neglected us. I know that the state of my hair is not your will. I want hair that I Corinthians 10:15 talks about." Very soon after I found a book online about proper haircare which led me to LHCF. Things are coming along quite nicely now. "



I know you said that in earnest but ...  Praise G-d that is very true!


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## aribell (Mar 1, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> I know you said that in earnest but ... Praise G-d that is very true!


 
 It was _that_ serious!  I've gotten the best answers from God when my prayers were simple, straightforward, and maybe even naive...but earnest.


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## SND411 (Mar 1, 2011)

I never understood why in one verse the Bible claims a woman's hair is her glory but in another verse claims that the inner heart is what God judges. I thought that it is what is unseen (internal), not what is seen (external), is important. 

It is very dangerous to tie a woman's physical hair to her spiritual worth. It's honestly ridiculous in my opinion and I never understood why the Bible implies this. We already have the world judge us by our physical looks, now we have God doing it? Makes no sense especially when it states that God sees the heart, not the outward person. I'm starting to think most people are interpreting that verse horribly wrong. 


But I also don't think it's vain to pray about your hair. I don't think there are limits to what you can pray about.


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## Guitarhero (Mar 1, 2011)

Those are some of the "contradictions" in scripture and point to the various levels of meaning contained within.  Much of the bible is not literal in that sense.  It's not cut and dry.  It's a buffer to maintain spirituality but that, as part of creation, this is how we are wondrously made.  Balance.


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## BeautifulFlower (Mar 1, 2011)

I am not sure the bible is implying that we should be judged by our physical appearance (i.e. hair). The bible is very clear on gender difference. Traditionally, women have longer hair than men and a women's hair CAN enhance her physical appearance. Glory does not imply spiritual worth for a women. Glory can mean a distinguished quality. If long hair is rare (especially in the black community), it would be a source of interest and praise for the women. Its just like any other quality that some have and others dont, but you shouldnt preceive yourself as lesser than because you dont have it (i.e full lips, shapely butt, big chest, etc...). Everyone has there selling points. 

Thats not taking proper prespective of the Word of God. 

The bible makes clear that a women should present herself to her best but outward beauty is fleeting, beauty and charm can be deceitful, and to worry more about the inward man then the outward man. 

So outward is important but inside is more important. 


SND411 said:


> I never understood why in one verse the Bible claims a woman's hair is her glory but in another verse claims that the inner heart is what God judges. I thought that it is what is unseen (internal), not what is seen (external), is important.
> 
> It is very dangerous to tie a woman's physical hair to her spiritual worth. It's honestly ridiculous in my opinion and I never understood why the Bible implies this. We already have the world judge us by our physical looks, now we have God doing it? Makes no sense especially when it states that God sees the heart, not the outward person. I'm starting to think most people are interpreting that verse horribly wrong.
> 
> ...


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## SND411 (Mar 1, 2011)

So all traditions  had women always sporting longer hair than men? Even in Ancient Israel, there were practices where men grew out their hair (could not cut it for many years). Many members of the Masai ethnic group have women cut their hair nearly bald while the men grow their hair to great lengths. Some societies are like this; human groups are diverse. Not all societies valued long hair on women, and it's inaccurate to assume just because YOUR society does, EVERY society has. 

It's interesting how we impute our cultural practices into the Bible. Our cultural practices and biases came from ourselves, not a divine being.

And the fact that there are people out there who honestly believe black women are not fulfiling their glory just because some have messed up hair is hilarious.


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## Ladybelle (Mar 1, 2011)

^^ Do those cultures you speak of believe in God? If they don't then that would explain it. Indian women who cut their hair off as seen in good hair are not worshipping The God mentioned in the bible.  

So, biblically speaking-hair was an important thing for women to have in the old testament, to my understanding those laws changed in the New Testament though. Which is a moot point, the main point is if you want to pray to God for long hair, you can. And,if you don't believe in God then do whatever suits you.


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## aribell (Mar 1, 2011)

SND411 said:


> I never understood why in one verse the Bible claims a woman's hair is her glory but in another verse claims that the inner heart is what God judges. I thought that it is what is unseen (internal), not what is seen (external), is important.
> 
> It is very dangerous to tie a woman's physical hair to her spiritual worth. It's honestly ridiculous in my opinion and I never understood why the Bible implies this. We already have the world judge us by our physical looks, now we have God doing it? Makes no sense especially when it states that God sees the heart, not the outward person. I'm starting to think most people are interpreting that verse horribly wrong.
> 
> ...


 
The "glory" of a woman's hair in that bible passage isn't about physical attractiveness, it's about having a covering. Paul was speaking about women having covered heads as a symbol of being under authority. 



			
				I Corinthians 11:7-15 said:
			
		

> *7* A man ought not to cover his head,[b] since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. *8* For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; *9* neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. *10* *It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own[c] head, because of the angels.* *11* Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. *12* For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.
> *13* Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? *14* Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, *15* but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? *For long hair is given to her as a covering*.


 
The fact that the woman's long hair "is her glory" is not about the fact that it makes her prettier, but rather that it shows her to be a woman in submission. It is a reflection of spiritual beauty. Paul points to our commonplace preference for women to have long hair to show that women ought to have a covering.

There are, of course, cultures in which women *traditionally* wear short hair--namely sub-saharan african cultures, but nowhere else in the world is that the case. And as we know, it's _not_ the case that women of African descent could not grow their hair out if they so chose, so I don't see a conflict between what Paul is saying and the fact that some cultures have done differently.


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## Laela (Mar 1, 2011)

My DH and I had a discussion about that Corinthians Scripture before and this is what I believe as well -- that a woman's long hair is a substitute for authority. When she marries, she becomes 'covered' by the authority of her husband. She nourishes her hair/body, as she would her spiritual life.




nicola.kirwan said:


> The "glory" of a woman's hair in that bible passage isn't about physical attractiveness, it's about having a covering. Paul was speaking about women having covered heads as a symbol of being under authority.
> 
> 
> 
> The fact that the woman's long hair "is her glory" is not about the fact that it makes her prettier, but rather that it shows her to be a woman in submission. It is a reflection of spiritual beauty. Paul points to our commonplace preference for women to have long hair to show that women ought to have a covering.


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## SND411 (Mar 1, 2011)

nicola.kirwan said:


> The "glory" of a woman's hair in that bible passage isn't about physical attractiveness, it's about having a covering. Paul was speaking about women having covered heads as a symbol of being under authority.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What has being under the authority of men done for us women but cause us pain and a loss of our humanity? Every society where men have been placed over women (including so-called Godly societies ie Ancient Israel) women have suffered in extraordinary ways. 

Do we really want our hair to remind us of this?


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## SND411 (Mar 1, 2011)

Ladybelle said:


> ^^ Do those cultures you speak of believe in God? If they don't then that would explain it. Indian women who cut their hair off as seen in good hair are not worshipping The God mentioned in the bible.
> 
> So, biblically speaking-hair was an important thing for women to have in the old testament, to my understanding those laws changed in the New Testament though. Which is a moot point, the main point is if you want to pray to God for long hair, you can. And,if you don't believe in God then do whatever suits you.



Yes, many of the Masai have converted to Christianity (not all, but many).


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## SND411 (Mar 1, 2011)

Also, just to remind everyone, I am a believe in Christ.


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## Shimmie (Mar 1, 2011)

No, I don't think or even 'believe' that it's vain.  Otherwise, I'd be here out of sheer rebellion, let alone disobedience.  

God says to include Him into our lives totally ... in All things, to pray about All things.  

I have straight up, admitted to God that my hair is about my vanity and that it is a 'gift' from Him alone that He allows me to have my crowning glory.   And I am not about to give anyone the credit BUT God for this head full of hair that He has blessed with me.   

God is awesome and full of favour and delight.   He delights is blessing His children.   He always has and always will.  

One of my prayers is that "Lord, may I walk in Beauty, each day."   The Beauty is His Light glowing from within as well as my physical appearance and this all without make-up.  

As long as I have myself in the correct perspective, it's not vain, it is simply my desire to look as well as feel my very best, which includes my hair.  :Rose:

I'll tell you what... I'm not asking the devil for it; so what not ask God.  Hair is His creation in the first place, so why not ask Him for what comes from Him.  He knows the number to place upon our heads.   Thank you Lord Jesus for my crown. :Rose:


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## aribell (Mar 1, 2011)

SND411 said:


> What has being under the authority of men done for us women but cause us pain and a loss of our humanity? Every society where men have been placed over women (including so-called Godly societies ie Ancient Israel) women have suffered in extraordinary ways.
> 
> Do we really want our hair to remind us of this?


 
Outside of Christ, the genuine presence of Christ, all relationships will be warped in one degree or another.  Men who have not been changed into the image of Jesus will lord their authority over women in ungodly ways. The fact that there is sin and abuse of authority does not negate the fact thereof, nor the good it brings when those exercising it are godly.


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## SND411 (Mar 1, 2011)

nicola.kirwan said:


> Outside of Christ, the genuine presence of Christ, all relationships will be warped in one degree or another.  Men who have not been changed into the image of Jesus will lord their authority over women in ungodly ways. The fact that there is sin and abuse of authority does not negate the fact thereof, nor the good it brings when those exercising it are godly.



But no one finds it curious that societies built on the subjugation of women incidentally believe that males authority over women is divinely ordained? What is it about men that give them the right to rule over women? Because they were made first? Didn't Jesus say the first shall be last. And why has this caused men to be given much more participation in religion (Old Testament) than women?

Also, I'm confused how in one verse it tells us that in Christ, there is no woman and man, but in other verses imply that our gender identities are of supreme importance.


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## Guitarhero (Mar 1, 2011)

SND411 said:


> *So all traditions  had women always sporting longer hair than men? Even in Ancient Israel, there were practices where men grew out their hair (could not cut it for many years).* Many members of the Masai ethnic group have women cut their hair nearly bald while the men grow their hair to great lengths. Some societies are like this; human groups are diverse. Not all societies valued long hair on women, and it's inaccurate to assume just because YOUR society does, EVERY society has.
> 
> It's interesting how we impute our cultural practices into the Bible. Our cultural practices and biases came from ourselves, not a divine being.




Where's the high-five emoticon cuz I'm going through that right now while refraining from cutting my son's hair.  On his Ethiopian side, folks are looking at me like  cuz they view it as un-christian/ung-dly whatever.  But he wanted to grow his ponytail  out and I kept cutting.  Now he's growing it out and I hope it reaches the floor.  Yes, ma'am, Netzrim...they didn't cut and it was a sign of dedication to the L-rd.  They say that this is where the RasTafarim get their practices from.


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## Guitarhero (Mar 1, 2011)

SND411 said:


> But no one finds it curious that societies built on the subjugation of women incidentally believe that males authority over women is divinely ordained? What is it about men that give them the right to rule over women? Because they were made first? Didn't Jesus say the first shall be last. And why has this caused men to be given much more participation in religion (Old Testament) than women?
> 
> Also, I'm confused how in one verse it tells us that in Christ, there is no woman and man, but in other verses imply that our gender identities are of supreme importance.



Gosh, and I thought we were so different .  I submitted to a state of coma for myself and then I snapped out of it.  Submission is relative to the man's relationship to G-d and it must be biblical cuz I ain't submitting to no fool EVER again.  ...that's a believer or a non-believer.  Never.  Sorry y'all.  But most people haven't a clue about what submission truly is.  They bring culture into it when it goes higher.  If a man cannot share in a life with a woman, asking her advice through equality, then he's a man that one should not submit to.  There's got to be some kind of vice in a guy who cannot share and only wants to direct another.  Not biblical submission and why?  He's supposed to submit to Christ as Christ loves the Church.  He bled.  Most men want YOU to bleed.  Not biblical.


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## SND411 (Mar 1, 2011)

And why are men the glory of God while women are only the glory of men? No wonder so many men have huge egos.


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## aribell (Mar 1, 2011)

SND411 said:


> And why are men the glory of God while women are only the glory of men? No wonder so many men have huge egos.



Are you asking why the Lord created it to be such or challenging that that is not, in fact, the case or ought not be the case?


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## SND411 (Mar 1, 2011)

nicola.kirwan said:


> Are you asking why the Lord created it to be such or challenging that that is not, in fact, the case or ought not be the case?



Both......

Do you honestly believe this teaching is healthy for society, especially the way it is today?


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## aribell (Mar 1, 2011)

SND411 said:


> Both......
> 
> Do you honestly believe this teaching is healthy for society, especially the way it is today?



I believe that society's problem is sin and sinful self-centeredness.  People are constantly doing what hurts others.  Genuine love of neighbor and love of God as the Bible commands would alleviate any problems associated with patriarchy.

I definitely do not believe that matriarchy or feminism will or have led us down a healthier path.  So long as people indulge self-centeredness society will suffer.  OOW births, STD rates, abortions and the like show that trading one ideology for another isn't the answer.


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## softblackcotton (Mar 2, 2011)

Prudent1 said:


> @softblackcotton,
> BTW, what's ur reggie?
> 
> Sent from my SPH-M910 using Long Hair Care Forum App


 
I don't really have a dead set reggie yet since my current is not working I am in experimental mode again:

Put hair in 6-8 large plaits. 

Wash (clarifying AO green tea shampoo), deep condition, de-tangle in shower with shower comb and conditioner on wet-damp hair every 1-2 weeks.

After wash, Put Leave-In, set wash and go curly fro. I can't do any other style since my hair lengths are so uneven. Set curls with gel, I have 4 a/b mostly 4b hair. 

Moisturize with S-Curl No drip Spray once or twice a day depending on how dry my hair is. 

Aphogee two step every month. 

That's about it. My hair was doing ok in the summer, just ok, and now it's not.


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## aribell (Mar 2, 2011)

softblackcotton said:


> I don't really have a dead set reggie yet since my current is not working I am in experimental mode again:
> 
> Put hair in 6-8 large plaits.
> 
> ...



Have you gotten reggie feedback on the hair forum?  At first glance I know that with my 4b hair, I cannot use shampoo unless it is absolutely sulfate free.  It utterly dries out my strands such that the hair mats and it takes weeks for the natural oils to build up again.  Also, Aphogee treatments tended to be good when I was relaxed, but too much when natural.  Protein overdose can make the hair brittle.  And lastly, I've found that conditioner washing a couple of times a week has been really good for growth and staying moisturized, even if I'm already using moisturizing spray.


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## SND411 (Mar 2, 2011)

nicola.kirwan said:


> I believe that society's problem is sin and sinful self-centeredness.  People are constantly doing what hurts others.  Genuine love of neighbor and love of God as the Bible commands would alleviate any problems associated with patriarchy.
> 
> I definitely do not believe that matriarchy or feminism will or have led us down a healthier path.  So long as people indulge self-centeredness society will suffer.  OOW births, STD rates, abortions and the like show that trading one ideology for another isn't the answer.



But most of the Bible is centered on men and the male experience. Most, if not all the writers of the Bible were men therefore, the Bible centers more on the male voice. Most people that were even able to read the Bible back in the day were men. How is that not self-centered around men? Societies that believe in ultimate male authority will naturally become self-centered to men's interest. Just like we believe that under God's authority, His interest and will would take precedence. Why do you think most of the Biblical laws were written with men in mind. Why were men more involved in Biblical holidays and temple?

No offense, but anyone who believes a certain gender is closer to God/godliness than the other will NEVER see the two genders as "equal neighbors." This is nearly impossible no matter how much you love others. 

Most men in "male authoritative" societies would never want to be treated like women, so the whole "treat your neighbor as you yourself" would apply within a gender and not across it. 

And who spoke about matriarchy?


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## SND411 (Mar 2, 2011)

Looks like I completely derailed the thread.....oops


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## softblackcotton (Mar 2, 2011)

H





nicola.kirwan said:


> Have you gotten reggie feedback on the hair forum?  At first glance I know that with my 4b hair, I cannot use shampoo unless it is absolutely sulfate free.  It utterly dries out my strands such that the hair mats and it takes weeks for the natural oils to build up again.  Also, Aphogee treatments tended to be good when I was relaxed, but too much when natural.  Protein overdose can make the hair brittle.  And lastly, I've found that conditioner washing a couple of times a week has been really good for growth and staying moisturized, even if I'm already using moisturizing spray.



Great idea I do need get some Reggie feedback I feel it's so hard for me to find one that works for me. My hair is full of mid strand spilts and is constantly breaking off into little o's

Sent from my T-Mobile myTouch 3G using Long Hair Care Forum App


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## softblackcotton (Mar 2, 2011)

SND411 said:


> Looks like I completely derailed the thread.....oops


 
Oh did you?  interesting spinoff thread idea though 


Sent from my T-Mobile myTouch 3G using Long Hair Care Forum App


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## aribell (Mar 2, 2011)

SND411 said:


> But most of the Bible is centered on men and the male experience. Most, if not all the writers of the Bible were men therefore, the Bible centers more on the male voice. Most people that were even able to read the Bible back in the day were men. How is that not self-centered around men? Societies that believe in ultimate male authority will naturally become self-centered to men's interest. Just like we believe that under God's authority, His interest and will would take precedence. Why do you think most of the Biblical laws were written with men in mind. Why were men more involved in Biblical holidays and temple?
> 
> No offense, but anyone who believes a certain gender is closer to God/godliness than the other will NEVER see the two genders as "equal neighbors." This is nearly impossible no matter how much you love others.
> 
> ...



Something I find interesting in conversations such as these is that scriptural truths are held under a harsher light than other accepted societal norms.  For instance, there are numerous problems with the education system and yet we don't suggest that the education system itself is invalid.  Police officers abuse their authority all the time, but we accept their validity nonetheless.  The criminal justice system has unjustly ruined the lives of many--especially black men--but it's understood that that means there's a glitch in the system, not that people should no longer be sent to prison for their crimes.

The world is fallen.  There is no answer to the ills of patriarchy other than obedience to Christ.  There's no other way of doing things that is going to lead to a better result other than becoming Christ-like people.

But in general, there's nothing in the Bible that says that men are holier than women or that the Lord favors men over women.   God is not a respecter of persons and the verse in Galatians saying that there is neither male nor female in Christ shows that God's grace is given freely to all without respect to gender.  

But the provision of the Lord's grace for salvation and knowledge of Him is quite different than how He has chosen to institute order in this world.  As Watchman Nee said, "don't confuse God's grace with His government."  I don't consider President Obama to be a more worthwhile person than anyone else, nor more deserving, but that's something entirely different than his position of authority as a leader.

I'm not sure I see in what way Scripture favors men in God's provision of blessings or His commands.  I've also never read the Bible and felt that I couldn't relate to what was being said because the Holy Spirit spoke through a man.  The interests of men and women are only separate if they are competing against one another to have their own way at the expense of the other.  Scripture doesn't pit men's interests against women's--we do that.


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## SND411 (Mar 2, 2011)

nicola.kirwan said:


> Something I find interesting in conversations such as these is that scriptural truths are held under a harsher light than other accepted societal norms.  For instance, there are numerous problems with the education system and yet we don't suggest that the education system itself is invalid.  Police officers abuse their authority all the time, but we accept their validity nonetheless.  The criminal justice system has unjustly ruined the lives of many--especially black men--but it's understood that that means there's a glitch in the system, not that people should no longer be sent to prison for their crimes.
> 
> The world is fallen.  There is no answer to the ills of patriarchy other than obedience to Christ.  There's no other way of doing things that is going to lead to a better result other than becoming Christ-like people.
> 
> ...



Of course scriptural truths are held under a harsher light/stronger magnifying glass than societal norms. Why SHOULDN'T they be? The Bible makes it loud and clear that it's own norms are divinely inspired, absolute, and not of human origin. That is a powerful claim and therefore, we must treat what the Bibles says about Scriptural truths more seriously. 

Interestingly, Genesis implies that "male authority" is the direct result of sin; "the fall." God only ordained male headship AFTER they disobeyed. So personally I believe male authority over women IS a reason why the world is still fallen. 

But great response on your part.  I guess we will agree to disagree.


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## Prudent1 (Mar 2, 2011)

SND411 said:


> What has being under the authority of men done for us women but cause us pain and a loss of our humanity? Every society where men have been placed over women (including so-called Godly societies ie Ancient Israel) women have suffered in extraordinary ways.
> 
> Do we really want our hair to remind us of this?


There should be a noted distinction between a society that had those inposession of male attributes in charge and those who had real god fearing men in charge. Being under the authority of the first group of imposters brings nothing but pain and misery. Being under the God ordained authority of the latter group brings a woman love, security, protection, full provision (spiritually, financially, physically, mentally), and brings the most important thing of all, a spiritual covering that comes from a godly man who is hearing from and obedient to the God that knows what that woman needs and chooses to use men to fulfill her needs. There are real godly societies and their are so called godly societies but they are not the same thing. God does not support abuse of women. Yes, I think I do want my hair as a reminder of what God intends and wants for me. It would _not_ remind me of something negative b/c there is a marked difference between those claiming Him and those doing the do. JMHO


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## Shimmie (Mar 2, 2011)

nicola.kirwan said:


> Something I find interesting in conversations such as these is that scriptural truths are held under a harsher light than other accepted societal norms.  For instance, there are numerous problems with the education system and yet we don't suggest that the education system itself is invalid.  Police officers abuse their authority all the time, but we accept their validity nonetheless.  The criminal justice system has unjustly ruined the lives of many--especially black men--but it's understood that that means there's a glitch in the system, not that people should no longer be sent to prison for their crimes.
> 
> The world is fallen.  There is no answer to the ills of patriarchy other than obedience to Christ.  There's no other way of doing things that is going to lead to a better result other than becoming Christ-like people.
> 
> ...





Prudent1 said:


> There should be a noted distinction between a society that had those inposession of male attributes in charge and those who had real god fearing men in charge. Being under the authority of the first group of imposters brings nothing but pain and misery. Being under the God ordained authority of the latter group brings a woman love, security, protection, full provision (spiritually, financially, physically, mentally), and brings the most important thing of all, a spiritual covering that comes from a godly man who is hearing from and obedient to the God that knows what that woman needs and chooses to use men to fulfill her needs. There are real godly societies and their are so called godly societies but they are not the same thing. God does not support abuse of women. Yes, I think I do want my hair as a reminder of what God intends and wants for me. It would _not_ remind me of something negative b/c there is a marked difference between those claiming Him and those doing the do. JMHO



Nicola and Prudent1, I love your responses. Straight up 'Word' from God.  

I'll be honest, haven't folks heard the 'Word', that 'Black Women' don't take anything off of any man... period!     

Sorry... I just _had_ to go 'there'.


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## Guitarhero (Mar 2, 2011)

nicola.kirwan said:


> I believe that society's problem is sin and sinful self-centeredness.  People are constantly doing what hurts others.  Genuine love of neighbor and love of God as the Bible commands would alleviate any problems associated with patriarchy.
> 
> I definitely do not believe that matriarchy or *feminism* will or have led us down a healthier path.  So long as people indulge self-centeredness society will suffer.*  OOW births, STD rates, abortions and the like *show that trading one ideology for another isn't the answer.




But we all realize that that is not a symptom of feminism, right?


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## Guitarhero (Mar 2, 2011)

nicola.kirwan said:


> Are you asking why the Lord created it to be such or challenging that that is not, in fact, the case or ought not be the case?



To you and SND111
It could be that woman completes the man and takes away his loneliness or something to that effect (partner in advice, in life etc.).  I don't think we have the entire meaning of it yet and we certainly are selfish beings, causing lots of harm to others.  

Back to hair:

For me, it's a personal tribute and I do pray about it that I'll not cut and grow it the longest it can be and for health.  I don't feel for one minute that my dedication to it is bad vanity, which, btw, does not equate with being vain.  That's a whole other issue.  As humans, we naturally crave some sort of vanity and this is how G-d made us.


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## Guitarhero (Mar 2, 2011)

SND411 said:


> But most of the Bible is centered on men and the male experience. Most, if not all the writers of the Bible were men therefore, the Bible centers more on the male voice. Most people that were even able to read the Bible back in the day were men. How is that not self-centered around men? Societies that believe in ultimate male authority will naturally become self-centered to men's interest. Just like we believe that under God's authority, His interest and will would take precedence. Why do you think most of the Biblical laws were written with men in mind. Why were men more involved in Biblical holidays and temple?
> 
> No offense, but anyone who believes a certain gender is closer to God/godliness than the other will NEVER see the two genders as "equal neighbors." This is nearly impossible no matter how much you love others.
> 
> ...




Because Hebrews are a paternalistic society and that's the one G-d chose through whom to reveal Himself at Sinai.  I know people suck and I don't typically have a traditional christian culture mindset like a lot of women do...but if it's any consolation, Jesus crowned His mother Mary as Queen of Heaven.  No other human, apostle, prophet, higher than her.  He lurve His momma.


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## Uber (Mar 2, 2011)

It's been ages since I been around here but I like this thread esp what Prudent said. I have never ever thought of it as vain because of what the WORD says about women and their hair. I agree with Prudent. It depends on the person. I never had concerns about my hair and I stumbled on the site by accident. I immediately thought that God drove me here and that he wants to use me to be a blessing to others about hair growth. I have prayed about my hair once or twice. It has definitely grown- the longest length is APL. I am not full APL YET. It's all down to Him. He wants me to have beautiful hair.


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## Shimmie (Mar 2, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> To you and SND111*It could be that woman completes the man and takes away his loneliness or something to that effect (partner in advice, in life etc.). *
> 
> I don't think we have the entire meaning of it yet and we certainly are selfish beings, causing lots of harm to others.
> 
> ...



At the bolded, this is so true and it's in scripture.   When Sarah (Issac's mother) died, the Word of God says that he was lonely and that's when his Abraham (his father) sent his servant out to obtain a wife Issac, his son.  

A woman does indeed complete and does bring comfort to a man.  A 'comfort' that no man can bring, otherwise his father would have fulfllled the void in his heart.  

God indicated this from the very beginning with Adam.  Instead of a man, God created a woman to complete him; to replace the lonliness of his existance upon this earth.   Men cannot live without the love of a woman.  Not even men who say they are gay, for they still seek and gravitate towards the love of woman in their lives.  

Men, no matter what, have an unending need / desire for women to complete them.  

"Selah" ...


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## SND411 (Mar 2, 2011)

Shimmie said:


> At the bolded, this is so true and it's in scripture.   When Sarah (Issac's mother) died, the Word of God says that he was lonely and that's when his Abraham (his father) sent his servant out to obtain a wife Issac, his son.
> 
> A woman does indeed complete and does bring comfort to a man.  A 'comfort' that no man can bring, otherwise his father would have fulfllled the void in his heart.
> 
> ...



I notice how it says it is good for a MAN to find a wife. Not the other way around.


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