# Why is birth control/contraception wrong?



## LoveisYou (Feb 16, 2012)

can someone please enlighten me?


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## loolalooh (Feb 16, 2012)

This is a good question.  I would like to hear what others say as well.

I, personally, view birth control/contraception as wrong in _most_ cases.  (There may be medical exceptions, but I don't have any in mind right now.)  This belief is due to the conviction that it is a selfish act.  In general, one who uses birth control/contraception wants to engage in the pleasure of sex while blocking one of God's purposes for sex - procreation.  I've heard some married/unmarried women say "Well, I'm not ready for children."  To the unmarried women, my response would be "Save sex until marriage." To the married women, my response would be "God will determine whether/when you are ready.  That is not for you to prevent on your own."  

God doesn't make mistakes.  If He doesn't want a child to be conceived, He will block it.  Not every act of sex results in conception.  That is God's doing.  I feel like we take God's role out of the equation when we introduce birth control/contraception.

*Psalms 127*:

_3 Children are a heritage from the LORD, 
   offspring a reward from him. 
4 Like arrows in the hands of a warrior 
   are children born in one’s youth. 
5 Blessed is the man 
   whose quiver is full of them. 
They will not be put to shame 
   when they contend with their opponents in court._

*Again, there may be instances (particularly medical) of birth control/contraception that do not fall under this.*


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## LoveisYou (Feb 16, 2012)

Thanks loolalooh.

See I don't understand why it's wrong for married couples at all, they are not engaging in fornication so.......I do understand your argument about selfishness, but isn't wisdom also necessary in planning a family?

Would love some more insight


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## Rainbow Dash (Feb 16, 2012)

When my husband and I got married we decided to wait 5 years before children but God had a different plan. I got pregnant on the pill twice. I don't know if it is wrong to use birth control. In some cases it seems wise to stop, especially if you are having kids you can't take care of. After my third child, my doctor recommended that I not have any more kids. Having more kids would put my life and the child's life in danger. So we got fixed.


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## loolalooh (Feb 16, 2012)

Health&hair28 said:


> *When my husband and I got married we decided to wait 5 years before children but God had a different plan. I got pregnant on the pill twice. *I don't know if it is wrong to use birth control. In some cases it seems wise to stop, especially if you are having kids you can't take care of. After my third child, my doctor recommended that I not have any more kids. Having more kids would put my life and the child's life in danger. So we got fixed.



The same thing happened with my mother.  She got pregnant with me while on the pill.

My sister had a similar situation - i.e., God having a different plan.  She was on the pill for a couple years which eventually caused her to develop a cyst on her ovary.  The doctor told her to get off the pill.  Her and her husband wanted to wait before having children (hence why she was on the pill).  After being _forced_ off the pill, they conceived immediately.  They switched their plan to God's plan.


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## loolalooh (Feb 16, 2012)

Bumping for more responses, especially when it comes to getting fixed after having multiple children ...


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## Guitarhero (Feb 16, 2012)

For catholics, it means preventing the natural progression of marital sex which is to fully allow new life to come.  We were commanded to be fruitful and multiply and in marriage, the partners must be open to children.


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## LadyChe (Feb 16, 2012)

Interesting topic. How do anti bc believers feel about contraceptives for people with fibroids, heavy periods, endo or other uterine issues? Extremely mentally disabled people? Are there considerations in which a married couple can decide not to have more children for any reason?

I really am curious.


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## Bb92 (Feb 16, 2012)

So for the married couple who aren't ready to have childen, would they have to wait to have sex until they are ready to have kids? I mean more likely than not a woman is going to get pregnant when she has sex...So basically my question is for the people who don't want a huge family (10+ kids) what do they do? I know children are a blessing, but I am not trying to raise a school of kids!


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## aribell (Feb 17, 2012)

Natural family planning works.  People don't have to have as many children as nature allows.  God does give us some measure of choice in the matter.

Hormonal birth control is believed to essentially cause abortions in some instances, which is why many non-Catholic Christians are against it.


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## LucieLoo12 (Feb 17, 2012)

Well 


When I first gave my life to Christ I use to think that birth control was wrong thats because I had no understanding of it. People always say the bible says "Be fruitful and multiply" but it only says that like 2-3 times in the bible and that was when the earth was first being inhabitated. So now the earth is FULLY populated, overly really, so its not a commandment to have a whole lot of children.Now they are cases where a woman was on some type of birth control and she still got pregnant. Well if thats happens, well hey Glory to God. But it is nothing wrong with a woman taking precautions. If you have a husband and a wife that only makes $32,000/year and can't afford children, I would rather them take the steps to prevent pregnancy until they are financially stable verses them bringing kids into this world they cant afford to take care of. But sometimes people have a whole lot of kids and say this will was the of God, and for some it may be. But if you have unprotected sex pregnancy will be the outcome. You should just use wisdom. Like this women on TV with these 20 kids. She almost died her last two pregnancy and just had a miscarriage. Now by no means am I trying to talk down about this woman. But her health and life is in jeproady.The bible says God maketh rich and added no sorrow to it.

So if people dont want to use birth control with their spouse, thats fine. And for the ones who do, thats fine too... no one is wrong...


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## Prudent1 (Feb 17, 2012)

marking my spot... **in my best Arnold Schwarzenegger imitation**_ "I'll be back."_
Ok, another awesome topic. Here is what I believe God to have shared with me over the years. My understanding is not a one size fits all. It is a different POV. I *KNOW* we should _all_ seek God 1st period. That includes asking him about bc and matters of fertility even though that is very unpopular and goes against everything society teaches us as girls. Bottom line our bodies are not our own. They were bought with a price. We are supposed to offer our bodies as living sacrifices. Sorry gals, that includes our wombs. If you are serving God and you and the Hubs don't want kids or only want a certain amount after you've made your requests know to God do I think he'll ignore you? No but how many ever bother to seek him in this very sensitive area? What if he said something we didn't want to hear? We Christian women are good at not hearing what we don't like I'll attempt to explain more with my comments below.




LadyChe said:


> Interesting topic. How do anti bc believers feel about contraceptives for people with fibroids, heavy periods, endo or other uterine issues? Extremely mentally disabled people? Are there considerations in which a married couple can decide not to have more children for any reason?





LadyChe said:


> I really am curious.


All excellent and very valid points. If you have medical conditions as such, 1st pray for your healing. While you are standing in faith and waiting on it to manifest, by all means take advantage of the medical expertise available to you. Just remember all drugs, any drugs have potential side effects. Just b/c they don't show up immediately doesn't mean they aren't there. Remember you have a _duty_ to take care of your temple as best you can. Sometimes believers have a horrible diet, don't exercise, don't see a doc regularly, don't get enough sleep, etc but want to take a pill+pray to fix things w/o putting forth much effort on their own. God has a part and we have a part. We should be working together. Don't you hate it when someone at work or your kids don't do their part but come to you with hands wide open anyway?
Extremely mentally disabled ppl? Who determines what constitutes the title? Are these disabled ppl out just gettin it all willy nilly? Who is sexin the extremely disabled? I think that's a slippery slope- extremely disabled label. The definition can change too easily IMO. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but if someone violates an extremely disabled person and they conceive or fertilize someone, then God still decides when to create a living soul. We still can _only_ speculate as to the worthiness of that human life. That is not something we need to do. BTW, someone who took advantage of the disabled needs to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law no different than a rapist.
Yes, a married couple can decide to not have any more children. They should pray _1st_ and seek God though. Just as ppl pray asking God for children I see nothing wrong with praying asking God for no more children, no children, or a certain amount of children. The point is to pray to God though- not just decide y'all don't want any of the above situations. That's what I don't see a lot of couples doing praying, fasting, seeking 1st. We are to pray at all times about all things. That includes fertility.




Brooke said:


> So for the married couple who aren't ready to have childen, would they have to wait to have sex until they are ready to have kids? I mean more likely than not a woman is going to get pregnant when she has sex...So basically my question is for the people who don't want a huge family (10+ kids) what do they do? I know children are a blessing, but I am not trying to raise a school of kids!


LOL- Yeah, I wouldn't want a school of kids either. Nor would I only have sex when I was ready to procreate. That is a recipe for divorce since God desires true intimacy between spouses and one of the ways he accomplishes that is through sex. Nicola answered that though *NFP does work* w/o all of the drug side effects. 
Ok, I'll continue in another post. The computer tells me I'm over my word limit


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## LucieLoo12 (Feb 17, 2012)

Now the whole tubes getting tied I am against this.  You are altering you bodies natural form. Now if this is needed for health reason, then ok. But just be tying and cuting tubes because the persons just wants to, I dont agree.



loolalooh said:


> Bumping for more responses, especially when it comes to getting fixed after having multiple children ...


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## LucieLoo12 (Feb 17, 2012)

Me personally, if I get married I will be on some type of BC because 1). I want atleast 3-4 years alone with my husband knowing him and becoming one with him. 2). Want to make sure Im stable spiritually and financially enough to have a child 3). Its still some things I would like to before children.


But if I take the precautions and still get preggie, GLORY!


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Feb 17, 2012)

How effective is the rythm method aren't married Chrisitians practising that, it's natural and healthy and just calls for a little self control ..


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## Rainbow Dash (Feb 17, 2012)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> How effective is the rythm method aren't married Chrisitians practising that, it's natural and healthy and just calls for a little self control ..


 

This may work for some. There are some women who have irregular cycles and who are not so careful often end up becoming pregnant. So, if a couple wanted to go this route it may be effective for those with a normal cycle. The percent for a normal cycle is about 75% to 87%. Irregular cycles percentage may be lower.


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## aribell (Feb 17, 2012)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:
			
		

> How effective is the rythm method aren't married Chrisitians practising that, it's natural and healthy and just calls for a little self control ..



There are tons of very credible natural family planning sites and info out there.  It's not technically the rhythm method, as NFP is not just about dates but also about body temperature, mucus, etc.  When all are taken together the effective rate is supposed to be just as good as conventional methods.


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## LucieLoo12 (Feb 17, 2012)

What is the rythm method? Iwanthealthyhair67




Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> How effective is the rythm method aren't married Chrisitians practising that, it's natural and healthy and just calls for a little self control ..


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## Dellas (Feb 17, 2012)

I have no problem with any medical science. I think this is a tool. I have know people who died in Faith because they did not see the doctor. Joyce Meyer has has plastic surgery. At the end of the day your personal walk with Christ is your personal walk.


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## sidney (Feb 17, 2012)

Just wanted to say the morning after pill or plan B? is designed to expulse an already formed embryo.   It works just like an abortion so read about how this stuff works.  Remember god says before I formed you in the womb i knew you. Jer 1:5 i


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## Rainbow Dash (Feb 17, 2012)

I believe in using natural methods but I also believe that God has blessed us with doctors and medicine. I don't agree with all forms of medicine or treatments, especially the embryo stem cell and morning after pill. 

In my case, if I did not use a doctor to give birth to my children I would not be alive today. I almost died with my first child and the child as well, so we cannot totally dismiss doctors, science, and medicine. They are useful. 

Be careful not to go to far to the left when it comes to this type of stuff.


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## BostonMaria (Feb 17, 2012)

I think that the issue with birth control is that it gives a woman a false sense of protection and control over her future.  I know women that have used BC for years and its made them gain weight, develop acne all over their face, have blood clots (for those that I know who smoked while on BC), get yeast infections, made them sick, etc.  Some people think that just because they're on BC it gives them the "right" to be promiscuous, which of course can lead to STD's. BC doesn't protect against diseases.

Before I became a Christian I took BC for years and after a while I started to feel nauseous and sick after I took the pill.  Then I switched to other types of BC's. Its been 7 years trying to have a child and I can't seem to get pregnant. I don't know if it was the BC or something else. It bothers me and is always in the back of my mind. 

These pharmaceutical companies don't care if they make us sick or infertile. At the end of the day they just want to make money off of us.  If you are married, have regular periods, and can do the natural planning method I highly recommend it. You can download an app on your phone and check the days you are the most fertile.


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## CoilyFields (Feb 17, 2012)

I do not believe that there is anything wrong with birth control (not to be lumped with morning after pill). I believe that God has allowed science to benefit us in many ways. I wouldnt dismiss those medicines etc. that improve my quaity of life. And frankly, If I dont wanna have kids I dont think that its something that God would frown on. Didnt Paul desire to be single...thereby eliminating the possibility of having kids? So he wasn't "fruitful" inthat way...

I also believe that if God wants a child to be born he can overcome bc. I was on the pill when I got pregnant with my daughter.


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## ItsMeFre (Feb 17, 2012)

Health&hair28 said:


> This may work for some. There are some women who have irregular cycles and who are not so careful often end up becoming pregnant. So, if a couple wanted to go this route it may be effective for those with a normal cycle. The percent for a normal cycle is about 75% to 87%. Irregular cycles percentage may be lower.


 
This is how I got pregnant with my 3rd child. I had a baby in 2010 (planned) and in 2011 (unplanned) because my cycle was irregular and we thought we were being careful. My cylcle hadn't regulated itself out after the 2010 baby so I ended up getting pregnant again.


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## ItsMeFre (Feb 17, 2012)

CoilyFields said:


> I do not believe that there is anything wrong with birth control (not to be lumped with morning after pill). I believe that God has allowed science to benefit us in many ways. I wouldnt dismiss those medicines etc. that improve my quaity of life. And frankly, If I dont wanna have kids I dont think that its something that God would frown on. Didnt Paul desire to be single...thereby eliminating the possibility of having kids? So he wasn't "fruitful" inthat way...
> 
> I also believe that if God wants a child to be born he can overcome bc. I was on the pill when I got pregnant with my daughter.


 
I agree with this 100%.


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## loolalooh (Feb 17, 2012)

Alicialynn86 said:


> Well
> 
> 
> When I first gave my life to Christ I use to think that birth control was wrong thats because I had no understanding of it. People always say the bible says "Be fruitful and multiply" but it only says that like 2-3 times in the bible and that was when the earth was first being inhabitated. So now the earth is FULLY populated, overly really, so its not a commandment to have a whole lot of children.Now they are cases where a woman was on some type of birth control and she still got pregnant. Well if thats happens, well hey Glory to God. But it is nothing wrong with a woman taking precautions. If you have a husband and a wife that only makes $32,000/year and can't afford children, I would rather them take the steps to prevent pregnancy until they are financially stable verses them bringing kids into this world they cant afford to take care of. But sometimes people have a whole lot of kids and say this will was the of God, and for some it may be. But if you have unprotected sex pregnancy will be the outcome. *You should just use wisdom. Like this women on TV with these 20 kids. She almost died her last two pregnancy and just had a miscarriage. *Now by no means am I trying to talk down about this woman. But her health and life is in jeproady.The bible says God maketh rich and added no sorrow to it.
> ...



The Duggar family, right?  Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't they "purposefully" trying to have as many kids as possible?  Her pregnancies have been planned, right?  I feel some kind of way about their situation, but let me not pass judgment.


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## aribell (Feb 17, 2012)

The Pill (hormonal bc) will also prevent a fertilized egg from implanting in a woman's uterus, like one of the morning after pills does.  Some people argue that it's not a "life" until the fertilized egg implants, others say it is a "life" as soon as the egg and sperm meet.  Christians usually take the stance that a life has been created as soon as the egg and sperm meet, making the Pill a no-go, since the pill doesn't prevent conception, but only implantation.  For a woman on the Pill who has conceived, the embryo would simply continue to pass through her system.

I can't speak to Yaz and other forms of BC, but I also believe that there have to be more serious health side-effects than they let on.  Think about the sheer number of women who purchase birth control for years.  There is waaay too much money at stake for the pharma companies to allow any negative studies to come out.


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## ItsMeFre (Feb 17, 2012)

loolalooh said:


> The Duggar family, right? Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't they "purposefully" trying to have as many kids as possible? Her pregnancies have been planned, right? I feel some kind of way about their situation, but let me not pass judgment.


 
From my understanding, their logic is that God decides when they are finished having kids. They are not purposely having children, they just don't believe in birth control. They believe that they will stop having children when God decides to stop giving them children.


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## loolalooh (Feb 17, 2012)

ItsMeFre said:


> From my understanding, their logic is that God decides when they are finished having kids. They are not purposely having children, they just don't believe in birth control. They believe that they will stop having children when God decides to stop giving them children.



I was wondering if publicity had anything to do with it.  Thanks for clarifying.


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## Sharpened (Feb 17, 2012)

I guess I am the only one who was terrified to use the Pill to alter my body's chemistry. Reading the insert was all I needed...LOL!

I had my tubes tied after my last c-sec; another pregnancy would have killed me. When our younger one was three, DH told me he had a visitation (and years later, a dream reminding him of the visitation) that he would lose one child (my miscarriage) but have two more afterwards. They are upstairs, playing on the computer.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Feb 17, 2012)

*What Is the Rhythm Method?*

A woman practices the rhythm method of birth control, or natural family planning, by learning to recognize the days she is fertile, and not having sex before and during those days. The rhythm method does not work for all couples. Women who have regular menstrual cycles and who are very careful about when they have sex usually find it to be effective. Women who have irregular cycles and who are not so careful often end up becoming pregnant.

here's the wiki link and according to the chart you can only have sex 8 days a month lol ...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calendar-based_methods





Alicialynn86 said:


> What is the rythm method? @Iwanthealthyhair67


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## Rainbow Dash (Feb 17, 2012)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> *What Is the Rhythm Method?*
> 
> A woman practices the rhythm method of birth control, or natural family planning, by learning to recognize the days she is fertile, and not having sex before and during those days. The rhythm method does not work for all couples. Women who have regular menstrual cycles and who are very careful about when they have sex usually find it to be effective. Women who have irregular cycles and who are not so careful often end up becoming pregnant.
> 
> ...


 
Many couples, especially husbands would not like this method...8 days a month. Maybe a different method. Are there any other methods? Maybe I need to research.


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## loolalooh (Feb 17, 2012)

Not that I advocate this, but there is *"breastfeeding contraception".*

"Women who have just given birth may use continuous breastfeeding as a method of birth control."  This tends to prevent the release of hormones which cause ovulation.  It can last up to 6 months.

For more: http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/birth-control/breastfeeding-4219.htm


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Feb 17, 2012)

yes, I see how this can be problem and this is 8 consecutive days so what about spontanaeity , I checked the calendar and aint nothing spontaenous about it  I see lots of sad husband AND wives 





Health&hair28 said:


> Many couples, especially husbands would not like this method...8 days a month. Maybe a different method. Are there any other methods? Maybe I need to research.


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## makeupgirl (Feb 17, 2012)

Alicialynn86 said:


> Now the whole tubes getting tied I am against this.  You are altering you bodies natural form. Now if this is needed for health reason, then ok. But just be tying and cuting tubes because the persons just wants to, I dont agree.


 
LOL...I'm sorry to laugh. I was just thinking about my aunt.  When I was 10, my mom told me that my aunt went to her doctor to get her tubes tied because she didn't want any kids.  The doctor refused at first because she was 25 then.  So my aunt started crying in the office and the doctor agreed to do the procedure.  But she not to long ago had a partial hysterectomy because of endometriosis but I think she has some regrets.  I say that because she got a puppy (of all things a rockweller) and she' very nuturing towards it, as well as my other aunt's dog.  My other aunt said that she thinks my aunt has some regrets about not having children.


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## makeupgirl (Feb 17, 2012)

nicola.kirwan said:


> The Pill (hormonal bc) will also prevent a fertilized egg from implanting in a woman's uterus, like one of the morning after pills does. Some people argue that it's not a "life" until the fertilized egg implants, others say it is a "life" as soon as the egg and sperm meet. Christians usually take the stance that a life has been created as soon as the egg and sperm meet, making the Pill a no-go, since the pill doesn't prevent conception, but only implantation. For a woman on the Pill who has conceived, the embryo would simply continue to pass through her system.
> 
> I can't speak to Yaz and other forms of BC, but I also believe that there have to be more serious health side-effects than they let on. Think about the sheer number of women who purchase birth control for years. There is waaay too much money at stake for the pharma companies to allow any negative studies to come out.


 

So I was like whenever the Lord's will for me to be married.  Hubby and I are going to really have to talk.  I'm scared to death of BC of all kinds because I've had too many health problems from them. However, I've also had too many close calls where I should have been pregnant but I wasn't because I wasn't ovulating so I that was a calm relief for someone that wasn't ready to be a mother.  Not so calm relief to find out I have endometroisis and PCOS that will make it tough for conception when the time comes.  What gives me a peace of mind towards future pregnancies is knowing that whenever season God has allowed me to conceive, I believe it will happen.


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## BostonMaria (Feb 17, 2012)

makeupgirl said:


> LOL...I'm sorry to laugh. I was just thinking about my aunt.  When I was 10, my mom told me that my aunt went to her doctor to get her tubes tied because she didn't want any kids.  The doctor refused at first because she was 25 then.  So my aunt started crying in the office and the doctor agreed to do the procedure.  But she not to long ago had a partial hysterectomy because of endometriosis but I think she has some regrets.  I say that because she got a puppy (of all things a rockweller) and she' very nuturing towards it, as well as my other aunt's dog.  My other aunt said that she thinks my aunt has some regrets about not having children.



I'm surprised the doctor went ahead and did the procedure.  When I had my son my mom tried to force the doctor to get my tubes tied LOL I was only 21 but was married and here's my mom bossing me around. The doctor said no and refused to do it. I think he saw how my mom was trying to force it ahaha Then I tried again when I was 27 and had my DD. Again the doctor said no because I was too young.


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## sidney (Feb 18, 2012)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> *What Is the Rhythm Method?*
> 
> A woman practices the rhythm method of birth control, or natural family planning, by learning to recognize the days she is fertile, and not having sex before and during those days. The rhythm method does not work for all couples. Women who have regular menstrual cycles and who are very careful about when they have sex usually find it to be effective. Women who have irregular cycles and who are not so careful often end up becoming pregnant.
> 
> ...



Omg at the bolded! I think it's actually the oppositie.    I believe it's more like 4-5days before ovulation and 4-5 days after it, so you abstain 8-10 days out of 30 or something like that.


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## sidney (Feb 18, 2012)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> yes, I see how this can be problem and this is 8 consecutive days so what about spontanaeity , I checked the calendar and aint nothing spontaenous about it  *I see lots of sad husband AND wives *



Omg!Too funny!


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## aribell (Feb 18, 2012)

All those years of human sexuality classes are coming back.  I have to say that the rhythm method and natural family planning need to be distinguished from one another.  Natural Family Planning _does_ work with irregular cycles.  I personally know two women with irregular cycles who have embraced NFP.  Also, with NFP, the only days a couple wouldn't have sex would be when the woman is fertile and prob'ly not when she is on her period--which is an individual thing.  But the "available" days would certainly be more than 8.


http://familydoctor.org/familydocto...ol/birth-control/natural-family-planning.html


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## taz007 (Feb 18, 2012)

loolalooh said:


> This belief is due to the conviction that it is a selfish act. In general, one who uses birth control/contraception wants to engage in the pleasure of sex while blocking one of God's purposes for sex - procreation*.*


 
Correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't NFP in order to prevent pregnancy be a selfish act as well?

BC is not 100% and one could get pregnant, the same could be said for NFP.  

Say, perhaps, that the birth control of choice is spermacide, Sponge, etc.  Are these prohibited?

Is there a difference between the various types of birth control (NFP, pill, spermacide, ect)?


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## aribell (Feb 18, 2012)

^^^NFP is simply not having sex when you are fertile.  

By contrast, birth control and spermicide are chemicals which prevent pregnancy by changing your body's natural processes/killing sperm.  Likewise condoms and diaphragms block sperm.


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## taz007 (Feb 18, 2012)

^ ^ Ah, I understand now (I think). Thanks!


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## loolalooh (Feb 18, 2012)

taz007 said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't NFP in order to prevent pregnancy be a selfish act as well?
> 
> BC is not 100% and one could get pregnant, the same could be said for NFP.
> 
> ...



I am personally convicted against NFP (except in instances where it may done for medical reasons).  The day that I get married is the same day that I become available to have children, so I personally won't practice NFP.  To me, there is no difference between the various types of birth control.

I do believe in using wisdom when it comes to bringing a child into this world, but that wisdom comes in the form of: "Should I wait until marriage?", "Should I marry this man?", "Should I take this career path?", etc.  It doesn't come in the form of "Should I use birth control?".  I believe that if we follow God's instructions in all those areas, He will set up our path such that the child shall lack of nothing.

This is just my personal belief.

*Matthew 6*
_30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well._


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## MonPetite (Feb 19, 2012)

.....................


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## aribell (Feb 19, 2012)

Choosing to have children only when you are ready to do so is not something that I would generally term "selfish".  The introduction of family planning methods in developing countries is literally saving lives.  Things may not be that extreme here, but a couple could end up impoverished if they had a baby as often as the woman is able.  Women have been charting fertility for centuries--just not as accurately as women do today.

Creating a baby is spiritual, in that God gives life, but it's also natural.  It's kind of like, if I choose not to eat, and my fat cells shrink, that's a result of natural processes that I chose to engage in.  If a couple chooses to create a baby, that is a choice that they made.  The baby didn't just appear from God--the couple chose to engage in an activity that would create a baby.  If they choose not to engage in an activity that would create a baby, then they may have every good reason for that.

A couple who uses NFP is engaging in sexual activity 100% accepting of everything that sex entails.  They are not divorcing the reproductive aspect of sex from the act by altering the process itself.  Again, choosing to abstain so as to not do something that you are not prepared for seems more prudent than selfish.


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## loolalooh (Feb 19, 2012)

^^^ But the solution in developing countries isn't to "control" the population.  The solution is to feed/help those countries.  Rather than teaching these people how to implement certain strategies to "prevent" births, why don't we tackle the real issue at hand.

Don't get me wrong.  I do see your point that NFP has saved lives in those countries.  However, it is unfortunate that is being done in this manner.  If only people were more willing to give in this world and help the impoverished through direct means (i.e., food, clothing, etc.).  Our Jesus helped the impoverished directly.  Rather than telling the poor to practice NFP, He fed the poor.


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## aribell (Feb 19, 2012)

Loolalooh, if what you are saying is true, then every woman who is physically able should be like the Duggars.  They aren't doing anything more than getting pregnant every time it's possible.


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## loolalooh (Feb 19, 2012)

nicola.kirwan said:


> Loolalooh, if what you are saying is true, then every woman who is physically able should be like the Duggars.  They aren't doing anything more than getting pregnant every time it's possible.



Here is what I'm saying: I feel that every woman who the Lord calls into marriage should not block the blessing of a child.  To me, marriage and opening oneself up to having children, go hand in hand.  Does that mean every woman who enters a marriage will have 19+ children without NFP?  No.  

The only time I see fit that one should consider NFP or another birth control method is when certain medical issues come into play.  

To me, it is sad that NFP is being viewed as a "solution" in developing countries.  We should tackle the real issue at hand in those countries.


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## aribell (Feb 20, 2012)

^^^Serious financial issues might also have to be considered, but you may well be right.  Being open to however many children the couple can have would require that we women in particular release the control over our lives and how they play out.  

I was just noting the use of the word "control" by abortion-rights advocates.  Women are said to want control over their bodies.  What would happen if we traded our control for God's sovereignty? Hmm...


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## JayAnn0513 (Feb 20, 2012)

loolalooh said:
			
		

> Not that I advocate this, but there is "breastfeeding contraception".
> 
> "Women who have just given birth may use continuous breastfeeding as a method of birth control."  This tends to prevent the release of hormones which cause ovulation.  It can last up to 6 months.
> 
> For more: http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/birth-control/breastfeeding-4219.htm



Yeah...that totally does not work.

Sent from my iPhone using LHCF


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## loolalooh (Feb 20, 2012)

nicola.kirwan said:


> ^^^Serious financial issues might also have to be considered, but you may well be right.  Being open to however many children the couple can have would require that we women in particular release the control over our lives and how they play out.
> 
> I was just noting the use of the word "control" by abortion-rights advocates.  Women are said to want control over their bodies.  What would happen if we traded our control for God's sovereignty? Hmm...



I wonder what would happen as well. 

Meanwhile, I read that men have become significantly less fertile over the last 50 years.  Some people are pointing to obesity, but it would be interesting if our Lord has a hand in it.


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## Prudent1 (Feb 22, 2012)

Please do not misunderstand my opinions- If you totally disagree with everything I am about to say please take away this one point. *God should be the final authority for everything in our lives including contraception.*


Alicialynn86 said:


> Well





Alicialynn86 said:


> When I first gave my life to Christ I use to think that birth control was wrong thats because I had no understanding of it. People always say the bible says "Be fruitful and multiply" but it only says that like 2-3 times in the bible and that was when the earth was first being inhabited. So now the earth is FULLY populated, overly really, so its not a commandment to have a whole lot of children. Now they are cases where a woman was on some type of birth control and she still got pregnant. Well if thats happens, well hey Glory to God. But it is nothing wrong with a woman taking precautions. If you have a husband and a wife that only makes $32,000/year and can't afford children, I would rather them take the steps to prevent pregnancy until they are financially stable verses them bringing kids into this world they cant afford to take care of. But sometimes people have a whole lot of kids and say this will was the of God, and for some it may be. But if you have unprotected sex pregnancy will be the outcome. You should just use wisdom. Like this women on TV with these 20 kids. She almost died her last two pregnancy and just had a miscarriage. Now by no means am I trying to talk down about this woman. But her health and life is in jeproady.The bible says God maketh rich and added no sorrow to it.
> So if people dont want to use birth control with their spouse, thats fine. And for the ones who do, thats fine too... no one is wrong...





Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> How effective is the rythm method aren't married Chrisitians practising that, it's natural and healthy and just calls for a little self control ..


This is NOT an attack on you or anyone but some of your statements have made me sad . Why? I'll tell you. Your train of thought appears to line up with some of the erroneous info I hear non-believers citing. I've highlighted a few things and would like to present you with a different POV. May I?
*So now the earth is FULLY populated, overly really, so its not a commandment to have a whole lot of children.*
So, The God who said be fruitfull and mulitply, who also said I am God and I change not, and also said his word is eternal is now wrong and out of control of the human population in 2012. What He didn't know 2012 was coming? He needs our help b/c our biggest and brightest humans have a certain number and certain races in mind as acceptable. We believe them even though we know they cannot be wiser than God who has not changed. Mkay
Is the earth _really_ overpopulated or do we have a problem with selfishness that shows up in a lot of forms? Case in point a few years ago in Myanmar when the tsunami hit as usual the crazy bible thumpin' Christians and mean ole Westerners donated money immediately to the cause. Within a very short amount of time boats and planes loaded with supplies desperately needed arrived on the shores of Myanmar. Most of them sat there and rotted/ were never used b/c the local government would not accept them. The same thing happens in countries all over the world especially on the continent of Africa. Supplies arrive>crooked or ignorant gov officials do not allow said supplies to be distributed> crooked officials only allow certain ppl access to supplies> majority of ppl die. Or you have phony charities that rob from collected donations and pocket the majority leaving little for those in need. That's a problem with morals/ integrity. Many stories of dwindling food supply sound credible on the surface until you dig deeper. When you learn of all of the red tape and interesting practices of farmers being told what to grow, how much, of food being destroyed for no reason, food being patented etc. If God is God and has somehow been managing to keep the human population in control for the past several thousand years, why does he need our help now? Wars, disease, other natural disasters, plus plain ole human stupidity will keep all of that in check. Plus, let's say all the intelligent and all the believers follow the standard boy for me, girl for you, praise the Lord now we're through rule in the interest of keeping population to a certain level, will the ignorant do the same? So, we already live in a world where the non-believers have more live births that believers. In the next generation, who is going to represent Christ? Have you seen the end results of population control? Check out what is happening in China (kidnappings, rape, etc) and Japan. It's not good. It sounded good back in the 80's when it was being implemented though. We cannot play God. His thoughts are so far above ours. We have and waste so much food here. If the food got to where it needed to go w/o all the hinderances everyone could eat and then some. Have you ever worked in a restaurant? I have. The amount of food thrown away is staggering! Plus, the very concept of restaurants is a luxury. 
*If you have a husband and a wife that only makes $32,000/year and can't afford children, I would rather them take the steps to prevent pregnancy until they are financially stable verses them bringing kids into this world they cant afford to take care of.*
Interesting, how do you arrive at the number of financial stability? BTW, what it truly takes to meet human necessity versus what we have redefined our expectations of living to be are two entirely different things. I do not think couples should procreate like bunnies but I do know that a lot of what we want to have is all _extra_. As a result, while I would not want to live on less than a certain dollar amount a year, I could. I would have to change my thinking and be twice as smart with my money. I would have to learn not to compare my existence with that of others and the like. Others can do the same but they don't want to (selfish maybe?). I would rather a loving couple to raise kids on a less than lavish lifestyle than a couple loaded financially to have kids but be too busy to be bothered with parenting (which is often what happens). So, the kids get material goods but no substance.
*Like this women on TV with these 20 kids. She almost died her last two pregnancy and just had a miscarriage. Now by no means am I trying to talk down about this woman. But her health and life is in jeproady.*I'll admit, I'm not a member of the quiver full movement but I respect the Duggar's right to choose (interestingly enough it seems they meet your criteria for a family but you disapprove of the number of kids they have knowing that 1- the kids will be well taken care of in the event of either parent’s demise and 2- the kids are being taught fiscal skills that will enable them to survive w/o dependence on anyone else ). Did you know they were financially independent well before a TV camera ever started rolling? They seem to love each other. The kids seem to be well adjusted children. They appear to seek God first. _I_ would not want 20 kids. _I_ wouldn't want 1/2 that number but, they are not public assistance recipients. Their offspring will likely not inherit the lifestyle those a part of the poverty cycle will. I have not seen anything to say her life is in jeopardy either. If it is, I respect her right to choose just like someone can refuse cancer treatment or something. I will say I would much rather married, in love, Mrs. Duggar to have kids than long term public assistance (like for the past several generations w/ no end of dependency in sight) BM/ BF (yeah men too) to be out there procreating like there’s no tomorrow.


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## Prudent1 (Feb 22, 2012)

loolalooh said:


> ^^^ But the solution in developing countries isn't to "control" the population. *The solution is to feed/help those countries.* Rather than teaching these people how to implement certain strategies to "prevent" births, why don't we tackle *the real issue at hand*.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I do see your point that NFP has saved lives in those countries. However, it is unfortunate that is being done in this manner. If only people were more willing to give in this world and help the impoverished through direct means (i.e., food, clothing, etc.). Our Jesus helped the impoverished directly. Rather than telling the poor to practice NFP, He fed the poor.


IKR, I read an article about cloned goats who can produce milk that prevents diarrhea in 3rd world countries. Sounds good on the surface huh? Then as usual, I thought a little more. The problem is tainted water. The solution that has worked in similar places is digging wells and better irrigation. But cloned goats are cooler I guess... Meanwhile ppl are dying.


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## felic1 (Feb 22, 2012)

There was a statement about being so heavenly minded that you were no earthly good.
I am not trying to be judgmental here. Children are expensive and a family is expensive.Many lovely women have found themselves widowed, with a disabled husband and some way, these ladies became the sole support of the family. Yes we are bought with a price. We are still the weaker vessel. I do not believe that a woman should have more children than she can take care of. Knowledge on the earth shall increase. I believe that contraceptives are safe. Condoms are safe. umm...Ok a husband feels that he should not have to wear one. Intrauterine devices are safe. There are a lot of options. I think that some of the apprehension regarding contraceptives is related to fear. How can you have a stable life if you have more children than you can provide for?
How is that wisdom and prudent? Thanks everyone. I have one child.


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## SoSwanky (Feb 23, 2012)

felic1 said:


> *There was a statement about being so heavenly minded that you were no earthly good.*
> I am not trying to be judgmental here. Children are expensive and a family is expensive.Many lovely women have found themselves widowed, with a disabled husband and some way, these ladies became the sole support of the family. Yes we are bought with a price. We are still the weaker vessel. I do not believe that a woman should have more children than she can take care of. Knowledge on the earth shall increase. I believe that contraceptives are safe. Condoms are safe. umm...Ok a husband feels that he should not have to wear one. Intrauterine devices are safe. There are a lot of options. I think that some of the apprehension regarding contraceptives is related to fear. How can you have a stable life if you have more children than you can provide for?
> How is that wisdom and prudent? Thanks everyone. I have one child.


 

At the bolded- i can dig it- i say that all. the. time. and some folk still don't get it.


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## loolalooh (Feb 23, 2012)

felic1 said:


> *There was a statement about being so heavenly minded that you were no earthly good.*
> I am not trying to be judgmental here. Children are expensive and a family is expensive.Many lovely women have found themselves widowed, with a disabled husband and some way, these ladies became the sole support of the family. Yes we are bought with a price. We are still the weaker vessel. I do not believe that a woman should have more children than she can take care of. Knowledge on the earth shall increase. I believe that contraceptives are safe. Condoms are safe. umm...Ok a husband feels that he should not have to wear one. Intrauterine devices are safe. There are a lot of options. I think that some of the apprehension regarding contraceptives is related to fear. How can you have a stable life if you have more children than you can provide for?
> How is that wisdom and prudent? Thanks everyone. I have one child.



The bolded is not biblical statement.  Source: http://bible.org/seriespage/heavenly-minded-and-earthly-good-1-corinthians-318-45

It also goes against this Scripture:

_*Colossians 3:2
2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.*_

Additionally, no one is/was more heavenly minded than Jesus, yet he was of good to the earth.  Anyone who can get even close to being as heavenly minded as Jesus is on the right path.


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## cutiebe2 (Feb 23, 2012)

ItsMeFre said:


> From my understanding, their logic is that God decides when they are finished having kids. They are not purposely having children, they just don't believe in birth control. They believe that they will stop having children when God decides to stop giving them children.


 I heard the Duggars are using Clomid and all of that. Either them or their other Quivver friends the Bates. So thats why its silly. Just as you should prevent God from bringing children into your life, you shouldn't force children into your live either through IVF. I think Michelle is 45 now..she should really stop.


What I don't understand is why Christians (who believe this way) don't have more kids. If you are married and having regular sex as God comands, you should have between 4-6 children at least. If not then you are in some way preventing more children. The average children a woman births has shrunk across the board. I think many are using some type of birth control even if they don't admit it.

I terms of me personally. I never want to use hormonal birth control because of the health risks that others alluded to.


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## Prudent1 (Feb 23, 2012)

felic1 said:


> There was a statement about being so heavenly minded that you were no earthly good.
> I am not trying to be judgmental here. Children are expensive and a family is expensive.Many lovely women have found themselves widowed (term life insurance for both b/c death will happen eventually), with a disabled husband and some way (all couples/ working ppl who have dependents should have long term disability insurance), these ladies became the sole support of the family (these types of insurance are a part of a spouse's responsibilty to each other and any offspring, are relatively inexpensive, and should be non-negotiable). Yes we are bought with a price. We are still the weaker vessel. I do not believe that a woman should have more children than she can take care of (I agree. I just think that ppl do not pray to God asking him for his input. I think they decide.). Knowledge on the earth shall increase. I believe that contraceptives are safe. Condoms are safe. umm...Ok a husband feels that he should not have to wear one. Intrauterine devices are safe. There are a lot of options. I think that some of the apprehension regarding contraceptives is related to fear. How can you have a stable life if you have more children than you can provide for?(I don't think for one second that a couple who has prayerfully sought God and made their requests known to him, will be ignored by God. His desire is that children be a blessing. My point is I think it honors God when we seek him/ include him in this area too. That's all. But I know many will think it _too_ much to include him in this way.)
> How is that wisdom and prudent? Thanks everyone. I have one child.


Hi @felic1,
I'm kinda over simplifying my responses but I think you'll get the point. There is nothing wrong with you and DH having 1 child. We may disagree (not you and I per se but all who have contributed to this thread) about specifics concerning BC but all I am saying is I think it honors God when we seek him in all areas of our lives including our fertility. That does not mean if you desire no children, 2, or 15 that any one person is right and all others wrong. It just means before _we_ decide what _we_ want to do, _we_ should include God. I see a lot of _*I*_ statements in these posts. I have yet to see one post where someone said _"Me and DH prayed and this is what God said..."_

*Is there anyone out there who together prayed with a DH and sought God's opinion concerning kids (not due to infertility) maybe at the beggining of the marriage or something? Is there anyone who prayed concerning bc?*


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## aribell (Feb 23, 2012)

cutiebe2 said:


> What I don't understand is why Christians (who believe this way) don't have more kids. If you are married and having regular sex as God comands, you should have between 4-6 children at least. If not then you are in some way preventing more children. The average children a woman births has shrunk across the board. I think many are using some type of birth control even if they don't admit it.
> 
> I terms of me personally. I never want to use hormonal birth control because of the health risks that others alluded to.



See, this is kinda what I was trying to say before.  My great grandmother had 17 children.  They lived on a farm.  My grandmother (her daughter) had 8, one every year.  Then my grandfather passed away in an untimely manner.  My other grandmother also had 8--not exactly every year, but there isn't a big spread in age between them, and she and my grandfather separated.  If my grandfathers were around longer, I can only think more kids would have kept coming.

The women in the next generation were the generation of The Pill.  A few kids at most.  So, my only real exposure to women not on BC is that if they are at the right age and everything is OK physically, children will just keep coming.  I understand that a lot of times, physical factors make conception difficult or ovulation irregular; however, it just seems like in most instances, without any intervention--hormonal or otherwise--the default is going to be a large family.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Feb 24, 2012)

I'm just not just how what I said got tagged the rhythm method does not waste, block or kill the seed ...



Prudent1 said:


> Please do not misunderstand my opinions- If you totally disagree with everything I am about to say please take away this one point. *God should be the final authority for everything in our lives including contraception.*
> 
> 
> This is NOT an attack on you or anyone but some of your statements have made me sad . Why? I'll tell you. Your train of thought appears to line up with some of the erroneous info I hear non-believers citing. I've highlighted a few things and would like to present you with a different POV. May I?
> ...


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## LucieLoo12 (Feb 24, 2012)

So I guess husbands and wife just go at it like bunny rabbits and have 12 kids they cant afford .

No one has yet to provide biblical scripture on why birth control is right or wrong. Which goes back to my ORIGINAL point. If someone does decide to do it or not, no one is wrong. It doesn't matter if we write essay size responses to the question, it all comes down to PERSONAL PREFERENCE. We have gotten HEALTH reasons on why BC may not be ok, and thats fine. When I was making my comment, I was giving situations on why a couple may want to use it. I am not going to condemn anyone on wanting to take precautions for themselves.


And I realize that God is the same and dont change. But if you look in the bible one of the commandments in the old testament was, we shouldnt wear any type of material that is mixed. I know 99% of us is wearing a shirt mixed with cotton or polyester today. We have to seek out and see why God said certain things at certain times. Yes he said be fruitful and multiply, but why? Because the Earth was not inhabitated. Back then men had more than one wives. Why? To help with reproduction. Now it's a sin to commit adultery. You must have ONE wife. Certains things was done for certain times. We just have to research things and not come to conclusion without studying it. 


So I am done with the issue. I've stated my point of view and I'm not going to keep proving it. If some dont agree....well. We may agree to disagree.


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## CoilyFields (Feb 24, 2012)

^^^I agree that I have yet to see the Biblical support of contraception being a sin. 

Question: For those who believe birth control is a sin, do you also believe that inducing pregnancy (IVF) a sin as well? Becuase you are interferring in God's process?

And I am also curious as to why some people consider NFP ok but not medical contraception? I know there was an attempt to explain it above but I still dont understand the difference. In both instances you are taking steps (natural or artificial) to prevent pregnancy. Im confused...

I do understand the objections due to medicines having side effects (which doesnt make it wrong just not preferable for some)


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## cutiebe2 (Feb 24, 2012)

CoilyFields said:


> ^^^I agree that I have yet to see the Biblical support of contraception being a sin.
> 
> Question: For those who believe birth control is a sin, do you also believe that inducing pregnancy (IVF) a sin as well? Becuase you are interferring in God's process?
> 
> ...



I think it was explained that the was hormonal BC works, it prevents a fertilized egg from attaching to the Uterus, so it is "killing" a life (if life starts at conception). NFP just tries to make sure life isn't created in the first place. 
at least that is what I gathered


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## aribell (Feb 24, 2012)

The only thing I can think of with respect to the biblical perspective on children is that I cannot recall any instance in Scripture where another child was not considered a blessing.  Even David, in the midst of being judged for adultery and murder, deeply wanted that child to live, and the fact that the baby died was a part of his punishment.  Now, I know that a child passing away is different than one not being conceived at all, but I just always thought it was striking _how much_, even in that circumstance, David wanted that child.


NFP advocates will begin with the principle that sex is unitive and procreative.  It is wrong to attempt to separate the procreative part of sex from the unitive part of sex.  It is like taking something that God created and only taking the part that you want and leaving the other out (blocking sperm, stopping implantation, etc).  NFP advocates would also say that a couple who chooses not to have sex when the woman is fertile is not separating out the unitive and procreative elements of sex.  Everything is still present, and if she gets pregnant, OK.  But they are still engaging in the act itself holistically.

So I think there are really two issues at play.  One is whether attempting to control the number of kids you have is OK, and under what circumstances.  And the other is whether it is OK to change the biological component of sex such that conception/implantation is rendered impossible.


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## LucieLoo12 (Feb 24, 2012)

Agreed.

We all know that when it comes to any type of BC, that none is 100 %. For ME it would to control when and how many. I dont want to be preggie 6 weeks after I get married and I dont want to be preggie every year either. But if I do get preggie while I am on BC, Glory TO GOD!



nicola.kirwan said:


> So I think there are really two issues at play. One is whether attempting to control the number of kids you have is OK, and under what circumstances. And the other is whether it is OK to change the biological component of sex such that conception/implantation is rendered impossible.


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## loolalooh (Feb 24, 2012)

Ladies, can we just agree to disagree and end this discussion?

We each have shared our own personal beliefs and are just beating a dead horse at this point.  Just because I am against BC and NFP, doesn't mean I'm going to produce 12+ kids or 19+ kids.  I'll produce however many children the Lord wants me to produce.  (For example, my maternal grandmother never used BC/NFP and only had one - yes, one - child.  My paternal grandmother didn't use BC/NFP and only had three children, I believe.)

I have Scripture to support my personal belief, and no, it doesn't come in the form of "Let us be fruitful".  I've already quoted Scripture in the previous pages.

So, let us just agree to disagree.  I may think one is blocking God's blessing by using BC/NFP, but don't think that I am foolish for giving God control of my womb.




CoilyFields said:


> ^^^I agree that I have yet to see the Biblical support of contraception being a sin.
> 
> Question: *For those who believe birth control is a sin, do you also believe that inducing pregnancy (IVF) a sin as well? Becuase you are interferring in God's process?*



For me, the answer is yes.


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## sidney (Feb 24, 2012)

This thread makes my head hurt [but in a good way I think].  I like that Prudent suggested prayer, which I had never really considered asking the Lord how many children I to have...which is great!  But, the steward in me is saying a baby every year is just not practical.  If God has called me to be X,Y,Z...it's not practical to do the things he has called me do with serial pregnancies. The important thing has been already suggested, ask the Lord.  Hagar and Abraham had a baby that was not in God's plan...at a time when it was acceptable for men to have multiple children by multiple concubines...yet it was not the Lords plan for him.  We are still dealing with the results of that decision today.  We can't swing the pendulum all the way on the other side. Let's be good stewards but most importantly stay prayerful!


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## CoilyFields (Feb 24, 2012)

cutiebe2 said:


> I think it was explained that the was hormonal BC works, it prevents a fertilized egg from attaching to the Uterus, so it is "killing" a life (if life starts at conception). NFP just tries to make sure life isn't created in the first place.
> at least that is what I gathered


 
Gotcha! Ok. I see what you mean now. I know that some hormonal birth control methods do this but others work before fertilization by preventing the release of mature eggs. So I guess it depends on what kind of hormonal methods you use. And so in this case things like condoms, spermicide etc are ok contraceptives as well?


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## cutiebe2 (Feb 24, 2012)

loolalooh said:


> Ladies, can we just agree to disagree and end this discussion?
> 
> We each have shared our own personal beliefs and are just beating a dead horse at this point.  Just because I am against BC and NFP, doesn't mean I'm going to produce 12+ kids or 19+ kids.  I'll produce however many children the Lord wants me to produce.  (For example, my maternal grandmother never used BC/NFP and only had one - yes, one - child.  My paternal grandmother didn't use BC/NFP and only had three children, I believe.)
> 
> ...



I think this was actually I healthy debate. Maybe there was some shade that I just didn't read.

I think its important to learn of both views the right way and be able to question them as to why. I never knew that there was different types of hormonal BC in terms of blocking the fertilized egg. I learned something in here

Republicans are out debating birth control on our behalf. Women on both side should be heard, even if its in the confines of LHCF


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## sidney (Feb 24, 2012)

cutiebe2 said:


> I think this was actually I healthy debate. Many there was some shade that I just didn't read.
> 
> I think its important to learn of both views the right way and be able to question them as to why. I never knew that there was different types of hormonal BC in terms of blocking the fertilized egg. I learned something in here
> 
> Republicans are out debating birth control on our behalf. Women on both side should be heard, even if its in the confines of LHCF



I think it is too...Loolalooh, if you feel that some of us are missing the boat here, please keep explaining.  I'm open to your opinions about it.


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## loolalooh (Feb 24, 2012)

cutiebe2 said:


> I think this was actually I healthy debate. Maybe there was some shade that I just didn't read.
> 
> I think its important to learn of both views the right way and be able to question them as to why. I never knew that there was different types of hormonal BC in terms of blocking the fertilized egg. I learned something in here
> 
> Republicans are out debating birth control on our behalf. Women on both side should be heard, even if its in the confines of LHCF



I thought it was a healthy debate as well, but now it's getting unhealthy. This is almost feeling like a thread from the Off Topic forum.  Christians will have varying degrees of opinions based on how God convicts them.  I agree, women on both sides should be heard.  It is not expected that we will all have the same viewpoint.  However, what separates us from the world is that we back our beliefs by Scripture ... not by how we "feel" or what we "want".  The latter is derived from the flesh.



sidney said:


> I think it is too...Loolalooh, if you feel that some of us are missing the boat here, please keep explaining.  I'm open to your opinions about it.



If everyone is on the boat of relying on Scripture (or even on what the Lord personally told them), I'm on that boat.  We can debate on the interpretation of the Scripture, what this Scripture says versus what that one says, etc.  Once, we start getting away from that and talking about "well, I only want" ... then I'm off that boat.


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## LucieLoo12 (Feb 24, 2012)

I think it was going fine. I just dont like anyone to point out some one's opinion in particular and call it wrong with out backing it up facts. 

I keep stating over and over, no one is wrong in this......


cutiebe2 said:


> I think this was actually I healthy debate. Maybe there was some shade that I just didn't read.
> 
> I think its important to learn of both views the right way and be able to question them as to why. I never knew that there was different types of hormonal BC in terms of blocking the fertilized egg. I learned something in here
> 
> Republicans are out debating birth control on our behalf. Women on both side should be heard, even if its in the confines of LHCF


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## LucieLoo12 (Feb 24, 2012)

As far as scripture goes on THIS topic, I believe the only time someone can call someone's statement WRONG is if they have a scripture supporting. Other than its personal preferences...

Lets be careful we are not reading comments in the wrong way as well.. (not to you, just speaking generally)




loolalooh said:


> I thought it was a healthy debate as well, but now it's getting unhealthy. This is almost feeling like a thread from the Off Topic forum. Christians will have varying degrees of opinions based on how God convicts them. I agree, women on both sides should be heard. It is not expected that we will all have the same viewpoint. However, what separates us from the world is that we back our beliefs by Scripture ... not by how we "feel" or what we "want". The latter is derived from the flesh.
> 
> 
> 
> If everyone is on the boat of relying on Scripture, I'm on that boat. We can debate on the interpretation of the Scripture, what this Scripture says versus what that one says, etc. Once, we start getting away from that and talking about "well, I only want" ... then I'm off that boat.


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## loolalooh (Feb 24, 2012)

Alicialynn86 said:


> As far as scripture goes on THIS topic, I believe the only time someone can call someone's statement WRONG is if they have a scripture supporting. Other than its personal preferences...
> 
> Lets be careful we are not reading comments in the wrong way as well.. (not to you, just speaking generally)



People had Scripture that they believed supported it.  We can debate upon whether that person's interpretation of the Scripture was correct.  We can bring in Scripture to justify the other side of the argument.  That's all fine.

I don't like pointing out people, but I guess I have to get specific.  One poster based her argument on "Don't be so heavenly minded that you are no earthly good".  That is not a biblical statement.  As a matter of fact, that is a defense mechanism the world uses against a believer.  I wouldn't expect to hear such a comment in a Christian thread ... an Off Topic thread, yes, but a Christian thread?


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## sidney (Feb 24, 2012)

Alicialynn86 said:


> I think it was going fine. I just dont like anyone to point out some one's opinion in particular and call it wrong with out backing it up facts.
> 
> I keep stating over and over, *no one is wrong in this.*.....



This is true.  On the topic of how many children one should have, it will vary from person to person.  God will have different plans for each person so therefore there can be no consensus on that.  Each person will have to pray and find out.  No more or no less will be born than what God wills anyway.


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## LucieLoo12 (Feb 24, 2012)

loolalooh

We have to know that when we do a thread we can't control on what type of responses we get. Some will be good, and some will be bad. But dont let a couple of comments make you feel as though the thread was ruined. I believe alot of women got some very good information in here. 




loolalooh said:


> People had Scripture that they believed supported it. We can debate upon whether that person's interpretation of the Scripture was correct. We can bring in Scripture to justify the other side of the argument. That's all fine.
> 
> I don't like pointing out people, but I guess I have to get specific. One poster based her argument on "Don't be so heavenly minded that you are no earthly good". That is not a biblical statement. As a matter of fact, that is a defense mechanism the world uses against a believer. I wouldn't expect to hear such a comment in a Christian thread ... an Off Topic thread, yes, but a Christian thread?


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## loolalooh (Feb 24, 2012)

Alicialynn86 said:


> loolalooh
> 
> We have to know that when we do a thread we can't control on what type of responses we get. *Some will be good, and some will be bad.* But dont let a couple of comments make you feel as though the thread was ruined. I believe alot of women got some very good information in here.



You've got a point.


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## sidney (Feb 24, 2012)

Alicialynn86 said:


> @loolalooh
> 
> We have to know that when we do a thread we can't control on what type of responses we get. Some will be good, and some will be bad. But dont let a couple of comments make you feel as though the thread was ruined. I believe alot of women got some very good information in here.



I agree.  I feel more open minded about how many children I can have one day from this thread...wouldn't have considered it  before.  So, the opinions here have not been made in vain.  We all just have to be open to God's will and his plan for our lives. I must admit, I am partial to NFP but with no basis [not from scripture/prayer].  What do y'all think about Onan wasting his seed?  Do you think God was angry because this was natural "birth control" or because he defrauded his brother's wife?


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Feb 24, 2012)

Acutally, I want to be so heavenly minded that I am no earthly good... 





loolalooh said:


> People had Scripture that they believed supported it. We can debate upon whether that person's interpretation of the Scripture was correct. We can bring in Scripture to justify the other side of the argument. That's all fine.
> 
> I don't like pointing out people, but I guess I have to get specific. One poster based her argument on *"Don't be so heavenly minded that you are no earthly good". That is not a biblical statement.* As a matter of fact, that is a defense mechanism the world uses against a believer. I wouldn't expect to hear such a comment in a Christian thread ... an Off Topic thread, yes, but a Christian thread?


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## aribell (Feb 24, 2012)

loolalooh said:
			
		

> Ladies, can we just agree to disagree and end this discussion?
> 
> We each have shared our own personal beliefs and are just beating a dead horse at this point.  Just because I am against BC and NFP, doesn't mean I'm going to produce 12+ kids or 19+ kids.  I'll produce however many children the Lord wants me to produce.  (For example, my maternal grandmother never used BC/NFP and only had one - yes, one - child.  My paternal grandmother didn't use BC/NFP and only had three children, I believe.)
> 
> ...



I don't think the discussion is directed at you; it's just that whatever the church teaches in general will have particular implications for every woman.  Not all women will end up with big families, but many would; so I don't think it's a judgment on you or big families in general.  It's that women like myself with our particular family history want to know what the implications of certain practices will be.

If that's what the Lord wants, it's fine, but it does change things.


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## Rainbow Dash (Feb 24, 2012)

I think that this thread has some great information. Great points especially on praying to God and asking His will in family planning. I did not ask God, I just got pregnant while on the pill. I wanted to wait 5 years, God gave us 3. With my second child, in my heart I wanted another child, so my husband and I decided to get pregnant and we did. 

So, asking God is wise. People can choose how they want to plan. If a family feels they can't have or should not have more kids, I think that God will honor that too. It is really up to the family and God. Each situation is different, there is no scripture against birth control as long as we are not aborting babies. 

If someone chooses NFP that is okay, if some chooses modern medicine that is okay with the understanding that there are risks. Me personally, I could not risk getting pregnant again so we had to take serious precautions and I do not feel that God is upset with us.

We have to remember that we live in a fallen world and the consequences of sin in the garden are still affecting Christians, if not, Christians would never get sick, die, or need any surgeries.


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## sidney (Feb 24, 2012)

I actually have a real headache now...I will have to lay on my face about this.  It does seem  like in every other aspect of our faith, we are "open" to what God has for us.  But it's almost like birth control/NFP "intercepts" God's natural plan.  In his word, God says...before you were in your mother's wound...I knew you....he knows the time, place, and date for each of us.  So...if I was not meant to conceive on X date, God will not allow it to happen...because according to his plan, baby X was not supposed to be born at that time.  Seems like intercepting it is like limiting God's control.  However...this all goes against reasoning to just go for it and literally multiply.  But that is what the word says...I will pray about it.


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## sidney (Feb 24, 2012)

Also, I would like it if some pro-NFP'ers comment on my question about Onan wasting his seed...


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## Rainbow Dash (Feb 24, 2012)

sidney said:


> I actually have a real headache now...I will have to lay on my face about this. It does seem like in every other aspect of our faith, we are "open" to what God has for us. But it's almost like birth control/NFP "intercepts" God's natural plan. In his word, God says...before you were in your mother's wound...I knew you....he knows the time, place, and date for each of us. So...if I was not meant to conceive on X date, God will not allow it to happen...because according to his plan, baby X was not supposed to be born at that time. Seems like intercepting it is like limiting God's control. However...this all goes against reasoning to just go for it and literally multiply. But that is what the word says...I will pray about it.


 

I get what you are saying. In a perfect world this would be wonderful. Christians still have to use wisdom. There are Christian women that still have pregnancy complications, miscarriages, and still births just like anyone else. My point is that if I did not stop, I was putting my life at risk and I do not think that God is upset about it. It is like using common sense but I know many Christians do not feel that we should use common sense but only ask God. If that were the case, our brains should be taken away once we accept Christ. There is no need to really think.

Just like a story a read years ago about a Christian woman who was fasting a lot and it was affecting her health. She ended up dying because she would not listen to those who told her that she needed to use some wisdom and stop but she felt because she was doing it for God that it was okay. That woman is dead, she went on to be with the Lord. Her health was too far gone. If maybe she had listened to wisdom she would be alive today.


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## sidney (Feb 24, 2012)

^^I think that for health reasons it's understandable, if the husband and wife presented this to God and God was in agreement.  And if they couldn't perceive an answer, yes, wisdom is the principal thing! I agree!  However, for women who do not have health issues...I was thinking about the two ladies who said they got pregnant while on birth control...it made me feel like God was "overriding" something that was blocked.  And it made me think of Fred Hammond's testimony.  His mother had an abortion, twice to removed the conceptus, but both attempts failed.  God had a plan for Fred Hammond but he had to "override" what was done.  And the fact, the he overrode made me feel like this action was "against" his will or at least not permitting him to control the process of creation.  We could argue that, If God wanted individuals to still have children while on NFP/birth control...he can make it happen.  Which is true.  But with obviously God's does not always block the free will of individuals who decide to have an abortion. Its possible that "missed" pregnancies are taking place by abstaining.  There's the scripture that says that husband and wife should only refuse to come together for the purpose of fasting/prayer or something like that.  Not to prevent pregnancy.  And of course, the scripture about Onan spilling the seed...which is like birth control.

Someone mentioned Paul being single, and therefore avoiding the conception process.  But Paul was submitted to God's will.  Likewise, married people should submit to God's will. I think in the end it's all about God having control.  And of course, it does not necessarily mean that everyone will have 10 kids.  Maybe you would only have 3 or 4 as the Lord permits.  The sperm and ovum can't come together and form a child unless God allows it to do so...so if he permitted it...he permitted it....he says he forms us in our mother's womb. It's not a spontaneous process that we have to block.  Just some thoughts.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Feb 24, 2012)

sidney said:


> But it's almost like birth control/NFP "intercepts" God's natural plan. In his word, God says...before you were in your mother's wound...I knew you....he knows the time, place, and date for each of us. So...if I was not meant to conceive on X date, God will not allow it to happen...because according to his plan, baby X was not supposed to be born at that time. Seems like intercepting it is like limiting God's control.QUOTE]





sidney said:


> sidney;15349459[COLOR=darkgreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## LucieLoo12 (Feb 24, 2012)

Well if HE allows me to have the kids, He will provide. But you can't make someone feel wrong because they would like to plan and take precautions.


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## loolalooh (Feb 24, 2012)

sidney said:


> ^^I think that for health reasons it's understandable, if the husband and wife presented this to God and God was in agreement.  And if they couldn't perceive an answer, yes, wisdom is the principal thing! I agree!  However, for women who do not have health issues...I was thinking about the two ladies who said they got pregnant while on birth control...it made me feel like God was "overriding" something that was blocked.  And it made me think of Fred Hammond's testimony.  His mother had an abortion, twice to removed the conceptus, but both attempts failed.  God had a plan for Fred Hammond but he had to "override" what was done.  And the fact, the he overrode made me feel like this action was "against" his will or at least not permitting him to control the process of creation.  We could argue that, If God wanted individuals to still have children while on NFP/birth control...he can make it happen.  Which is true.  But with obviously God's does not always block the free will of individuals who decide to have an abortion. Its possible that "missed" pregnancies are taking place by abstaining.  *There's the scripture that says that husband and wife should only refuse to come together for the purpose of fasting/prayer or something like that.*  Not to prevent pregnancy.  And of course, the scripture about Onan spilling the seed...which is like birth control.



*1 Corinthians 7*
_5 Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; _



sidney said:


> Someone mentioned Paul being single, and therefore avoiding the conception process.  But Paul was submitted to God's will.  Likewise, married people should submit to God's will. *I think in the end it's all about God having control.*  And of course, it does not necessarily mean that everyone will have 10 kids.  Maybe you would only have 3 or 4 as the Lord permits.  The sperm and ovum can't come together and form a child unless God allows it to do so...so if he permitted it...he permitted it....he says he forms us in our mother's womb. It's not a spontaneous process that we have to block.  Just some thoughts.



*Proverbs 3:5-6*
_5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct[a] your paths._



Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> All day I have been hesitating to post my thoughts, this thread really got me thinking too...Looking back I'd say my remark was careless about the rhythm method, even though it's a healthy form of birth control it is still 'birth control' because even in that my husband I (if I had one) would still be in 'control' .
> 
> Yes, by all means pray consult God first when making any decision, but let’s say he wants to give you 5 and you only wanted 3 cause thats all your $32,000 can afford...*shouldn't we trust that he can provide for us and the 5 that he blessed us with*...I think it's a matter of trust, yes trust, trusting God with the little seemingly insignificant things like birth control.
> 
> I see the concern on both sides, so my question is; are we really trusting God in this matter when we limit him in our finance and so called logical thinking, or are we limiting him working in our lives…​




*Matthew 6*
_30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?

31 “Therefore do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’_​


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## loolalooh (Feb 24, 2012)

Onan is an interesting story.  But I'm not sure that those who are against BC/NFP have a valid basis with this story.  I need to go and re-read it, but I think Onan's sin was something else ... Be right back.


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## Rainbow Dash (Feb 24, 2012)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> sidney said:
> 
> 
> > But it's almost like birth control/NFP "intercepts" God's natural plan. In his word, God says...before you were in your mother's wound...I knew you....he knows the time, place, and date for each of us. So...if I was not meant to conceive on X date, God will not allow it to happen...because according to his plan, baby X was not supposed to be born at that time. Seems like intercepting it is like limiting God's control.QUOTE]
> ...


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Feb 24, 2012)

@Alicialynn86 that was not my intention at all...I'm not against planning, but we must be so open to God that he can interrupt our plans also so trusting in him that he will provide for us with 2 or 7 ...


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Feb 24, 2012)

I completely understand what you are saying...but I can't speak to whether she and her husband consulted God on how much children they would like or how much he would allow them to have ...sometimes even though we are Christians we choose which matters we want God's assistance in and the others we choose to handle them ourselves...




sidney said:


> ^^I think that for health reasons it's understandable, if the husband and wife presented this to God and God was in agreement. And if they couldn't perceive an answer, yes, wisdom is the principal thing! I agree! However, for women who do not have health issues...I was thinking about the two ladies who said they got pregnant while on birth control...it made me feel like God was "overriding" something that was blocked. And it made me think of Fred Hammond's testimony. His mother had an abortion, twice to removed the conceptus, but both attempts failed. God had a plan for Fred Hammond but he had to "override" what was done. And the fact, the he overrode made me feel like this action was "against" his will or at least not permitting him to control the process of creation. We could argue that, If God wanted individuals to still have children while on NFP/birth control...he can make it happen. Which is true. But with obviously God's does not always block the free will of individuals who decide to have an abortion. Its possible that "missed" pregnancies are taking place by abstaining. There's the scripture that says that husband and wife should only refuse to come together for the purpose of fasting/prayer or something like that. Not to prevent pregnancy. And of course, the scripture about Onan spilling the seed...which is like birth control.
> 
> Someone mentioned Paul being single, and therefore avoiding the conception process. But Paul was submitted to God's will. Likewise, married people should submit to God's will. I think in the end it's all about God having control. And of course, it does not necessarily mean that everyone will have 10 kids. Maybe you would only have 3 or 4 as the Lord permits. The sperm and ovum can't come together and form a child unless God allows it to do so...so if he permitted it...he permitted it....he says he forms us in our mother's womb. It's not a spontaneous process that we have to block. Just some thoughts.


 



Health&hair28 said:


> Iwanthealthyhair67 said:
> 
> 
> > sidney said:
> ...


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## loolalooh (Feb 24, 2012)

Onan displeased the Lord by refusing an heir to his brother who the Lord killed.  I can see how we can take Onan's story as a reason not to use BC/NFP.  However, one could argue that Onan's sin wasn't that he "spilled his seed" ... his sin was that he refused to fulfill the Lord's plan.  Thus, we displease the Lord when we refuse to partake in His plan.  His plan could be for us to conceive .... or it could be for us to stop conceiving ... or it could be for us to conceive at a particular time (e.g. Abram and Sarah).

I don't know.  What are your thoughts on Onan's story?

*Genesis 38*
_8 And Judah said to Onan, “Go in to your brother’s wife and marry her, and raise up an heir to your brother.” 9 *But Onan knew that the heir would not be his;* and it came to pass, when he went in to his brother’s wife, that he emitted on the ground, lest he should give an heir to his brother. 10 And the thing which he did displeased the Lord; therefore He killed him also.
_


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Feb 24, 2012)

I wanted to discuss Onan a few weeks back in the oral sex thread ...

Onan's sin was in preventing his brother from having a heir because he purposely allowing his seed to fall to the ground, God killed Onan for it...




loolalooh said:


> Onan is an interesting story. But I'm not sure that those who are against BC/NFP have a valid basis with this story. I need to go and re-read it, but I think Onan's sin was something else ... Be right back.


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## Rainbow Dash (Feb 24, 2012)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> I completely understand what you are saying...but I can't speak to whether she and her husband consulted God on how much children they would like or how much he would allow them to have ...sometimes even though we are Christians we choose which matters we want God's assistance in and the others we choose to handle them ourselves...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Feb 24, 2012)

loolaloohoops so we typed that at the same time, I time we need to study the importance of the 'seed' to God so we can get a better idea of why Onan was killed, actually this story which I read a few times before changed my views on oral sex ...


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## sidney (Feb 24, 2012)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> I wanted to discuss Onan a few weeks back in the oral sex thread ...
> 
> Onan's sin was in preventing his brother from having a heir because he purposely allowing his seed to fall to the ground, God killed Onan for it...



It seems like NFP to me, witholding to prevent pregnancy...but it's unclear if he was punished for disobedience in general.


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## Rainbow Dash (Feb 24, 2012)

loolalooh said:


> Onan displeased the Lord by refusing an heir to his brother who the Lord killed. I can see how we can take Onan's story as a reason not to use BC/NFP. However, one could argue that Onan's sin wasn't that he "spilled his seed" ... his sin was that he refused to fulfill the Lord's plan. Thus, we displease the Lord when we refuse to partake in His plan. His plan could be for us to conceive .... or it could be for us to stop conceiving ... or it could be for us to conceive at a particular time (e.g. Abram and Sarah).
> 
> I don't know. What are your thoughts on Onan's story?
> 
> ...


 

This is interesting. This is the only recorded story of a situation like this in scripture. I'm inclined to believe that there is more to this. Maybe Onan received such swift destruction because the Lord sent the Word to him and he decided to disobey God, *as though God could not see what He was doing.*

*Did he think that he thought he was fooling God and that God could not see him spill the seed*?  

Reminds me of Ananias and Sapphira when they lied to the Holy Spirit.


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## sidney (Feb 24, 2012)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> @Alicialynn86 that was not my intention at all...I'm not against planning, but we must be so open to God that he can interrupt our plans also so trusting in him that he will provide for us with 2 or *7 *...



Good Lord...I'm struggling....pray for me.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Feb 24, 2012)

Health&hair28 I don't think he thought he would be killed over it ...but you know the custom in that day if your brother died before he had an heir then you would sleep with your brothers wife so that your brothers line would go on ...

I guess Uzzah fel the same way when he reach out to prevent the ark from falling ...two different stories two different reasonings


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Feb 24, 2012)

just a number I threw out there don't be like NK's granparents who had more than 10 children Lord have mercy...




sidney said:


> Good Lord...I'm struggling....pray for me.


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## Rainbow Dash (Feb 24, 2012)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> @Health&hair28 I don't think he thought he would be killed over it ...but you know the custom in that day if your brother died before he had an heir then you would sleep with your brothers wife so that your brothers line would go on ...
> 
> I guess Uzzah fel the same way when he reach out to prevent the ark from falling ...two different stories two different reasonings


 

Yep, I thought about Uzzah's story too. Makes you wonder.  But think about, *they were both killed because they ultimately disobeyed the commands for the customs that God appointed for them.* In the Old Testament, grace was not like it is today. If many of us lived in the olden days, I believe we would have been killed or stoned.

Lord, thank you for your grace.


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## sidney (Feb 24, 2012)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> *just a number I threw out there* don't be like NK's granparents who had more than 10 children Lord have mercy...



I remember doing times tables...I know what "multiply"means...I'm struggling right now


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## Rainbow Dash (Feb 24, 2012)

sidney said:


> I remember doing times tables...I know what "multiply"means...I'm struggling right now


 I know some you ladies do not have kids but they are fun, sometimes. They add to your life and they also make sure you bear fruit. They will let you know if you are really saved  and husbands too. You can be in worship one minute and be right back in your flesh, having to repent. But they are truly blessings.


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## sidney (Feb 24, 2012)

Health&hair28 said:


> I know some you ladies do not have kids but they are fun,_ sometimes_. They add to your life and they also make sure you bear fruit. They will let you know if you are really saved  and husbands too. You can be in worship one minute and be right back in your flesh, having to repent. But they are truly blessings.


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## loolalooh (Feb 24, 2012)

Health&hair28 said:


> I know some you ladies do not have kids but they are fun, sometimes. They add to your life and they also make sure you bear fruit. They will let you know if you are really saved  and husbands too. You can be in worship one minute and be right back in your flesh, having to repent. But they are truly blessings.



If I think about the many times I sent my parents back in their flesh ...


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Feb 24, 2012)

girl and don't forget the priests who had to go in on the peoples behalf with bells on thier clothing and a robe around their ankles if any sin was found in him he was killed, when the bells stop ringing it meant that the priest was dead and so they would pull him out by the rope..

I concur, thank you for grace father!!!!




Health&hair28 said:


> Yep, I thought about Uzzah's story too. Makes you wonder. But think about, *they were both killed because they ultimately disobeyed the commands for the customs that God appointed for them.* In the Old Testament, grace was not like it is today. If many of us lived in the olden days, I believe we would have been killed or stoned.
> 
> Lord, thank you for your grace.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Feb 24, 2012)

Sidney your quiver is full to capacity..lol




sidney said:


>


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## sidney (Feb 24, 2012)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> Sidney your quiver is full to capacity..lol



Girl!!!  Lol!  Seriously though, I'm going to pray about this tonight.  I will post if I get anything.  He gives wisdom to those that ask for it.


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## sidney (Feb 24, 2012)

^^^Clearly, I'm fighting it lol!  Pray for me lol.  But I will pray about it tonight...


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## sidney (Feb 24, 2012)

Psalm 127:3-5.
Behold, children are a gift of the Lord; The fruit of the womb is a reward. L*ike arrows in the hand of a warrior, so are the children of one's youth. How blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them*; They shall not be ashamed, When they speak with their enemies in the gate.

Yeah I saw that scripture Iwanthealthyhair67


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## Rainbow Dash (Feb 24, 2012)

sidney said:


> Psalm 127:3-5.
> Behold, children are a gift of the Lord; The fruit of the womb is a reward. L*ike arrows in the hand of a warrior, so are the children of one's youth. How blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them*; They shall not be ashamed, When they speak with their enemies in the gate.
> 
> Yeah I saw that scripture @Iwanthealthyhair67


 

Good scripture. I remember people used to pick on me at church. They would say, "you just keep having babies."  I had them kind of close together. I had an infant, a one year old, and a 4 year old. And yes they are all really a blessing.


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## sidney (Feb 25, 2012)

Hey ladies i did pray about it and god spoke to me in a dream about this thread.  He was speaking but i saw the words typed out as if i was posting it here.  He said, "many will say, I will not!  Only to look back and see eight children, and realize they are blessed."  Then I saw John 10:10.  

Now when God does speak to me in dreams they are themes...not necessarily absolutes.  It doesn't necessarily mean one will have eight children but rather confirms what was shared here.  If anyone else hears anthing post it.  Also I had to look to see what johns 10:10 was.  I dont have it comitted to memory.


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## Rainbow Dash (Feb 25, 2012)

sidney said:


> Hey ladies i did pray about it and god spoke to me in a dream about this thread. He was speaking but i saw the words typed out as if i was posting it here. He said, "many will say, I will not! Only to look back and see eight children, and realize they are blessed." Then I saw John 10:10.
> 
> Now when God does speak to me in dreams they are themes...not necessarily absolutes. It doesn't necessarily mean one will have eight children but rather confirms what was shared here. If anyone else hears anthing post it. Also I had to look to see what johns 10:10 was. I dont have it comitted to memory.


 

Wow. I am sitting here listening to Priscilla Shirer preach and she just hit on John 10:10. Praise God.


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## loolalooh (Feb 25, 2012)

I stumbled upon John 10:10 the other day in one of the other threads.  Interesting ...


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## aribell (Feb 26, 2012)

Something I heard yesterday seemed relevant to the discussion here.  It was the exchange between the Lord and Abraham, which Sarah overheard, when she laughed at hearing that she would bear a child in her old age.  The Lord asked her why she laughed and she tried to deny it.  God had a plan for her that seemed unrealistic and likely ridiculous to her, so she scoffed at the idea.  Gen. 18:9-15

I felt myself continually being "checked" in my spirit with my responses here because it was too easy to laugh away the thought of genuinely being open to having _however_ many children as the Lord may deem good, without adding on my own thoughts about what is reasonable to it.

Mary, in a much stranger position than Sarah, did not scoff, but said "Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be done unto me according to your word."  Luke 1:38

eta: This post was purely a reflection on my own attitide and not at all that of any other woman here.


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## sidney (Feb 27, 2012)

nicola.kirwan said:


> Something I heard yesterday seemed relevant to the discussion here.  It was the exchange between the Lord and Abraham, which Sarah overheard, when she laughed at hearing that she would bear a child in her old age.  The Lord asked her why she laughed and she tried to deny it.  God had a plan for her that seemed unrealistic and likely ridiculous to her, so she scoffed at the idea.  Gen. 18:9-15
> 
> I felt myself continually being "checked" in my spirit with my responses here because it was too easy to laugh away the thought of genuinely being open to having _however_ many children as the Lord may deem good, without adding on my own thoughts about what is reasonable to it.
> 
> ...



Wow, GREAT post! I didn't even intend to post in this thread at first because my mind was already made up.  And unlike yourself, I did actually "laugh" at the though of potentially having serial pregnancies.  But, I am humbled by this thread and I thank the ladies who did not compromise the truth of Gods word.  Thank you, I found another area in which I can submit to God.


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## Galadriel (Mar 1, 2012)

sidney said:


> It seems like NFP to me, witholding to prevent pregnancy...but it's unclear if he was punished for disobedience in general.



With NFP you abstain from intercourse during your window of fertility. What Onan did was engage in intercourse and then withdrew so that the "full marital act" was not completed.


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## Galadriel (Mar 1, 2012)

loolalooh said:


> I am personally convicted against NFP (except in instances where it may done for medical reasons).  The day that I get married is the same day that I become available to have children, so I personally won't practice NFP.  To me, there is no difference between the various types of birth control.
> 
> I do believe in using wisdom when it comes to bringing a child into this world, but that wisdom comes in the form of: "Should I wait until marriage?", "Should I marry this man?", "Should I take this career path?", etc.  It doesn't come in the form of "Should I use birth control?".  I believe that if we follow God's instructions in all those areas, He will set up our path such that the child shall lack of nothing.
> 
> ...



loolalooh I respect your view on this, though I'd disagree (I'm a married NFP user). Your argument rests on the premise that there never any justified reasons for a married couple to 1) periodically abstain or 2) space the births of their children. 

I would argue that both #1 and #2 are morally legitimate, and NFP works in harmony with both of these without violating the completion of the full marital act and without the use of abortifacients.

_The reason is that the fundamental nature of the marriage act, while uniting husband and wife in the closest intimacy, also renders them capable of generating new life—and this as a result of laws written into the actual nature of man and of woman. And if each of these essential qualities, the unitive and the procreative, is preserved, the use of marriage fully retains its sense of true mutual love and its ordination to the supreme responsibility of parenthood to which man is called. We believe that our contemporaries are particularly capable of seeing that this teaching is in harmony with human reason. _(Humanae Vitae)

The purpose of marriage is two-fold--unity and creation. Sexual love between husband and wife binds them in intimacy and joy while at the same time giving them the potential to generate new life. Artificial birth control or contraception negates or violates God's design for man and woman in marriage because it rejects the creative side of sex. 

How? Well, by _directly preventing procreation_. 

We also have very serious and negative consequences in our society because of contraceptive use (the below is also from Humanae Vitae, bolded is my emphasis):

 *Consequences of Artificial Methods*​ *17.* Responsible men can become more deeply convinced of the truth of the doctrine laid down by the Church on this issue if they reflect on the consequences of methods and plans for artificial birth control. Let them first consider how easily this course of action could open wide the way for marital infidelity and *a general lowering of moral standards*. Not much experience is needed to be fully aware of human weakness and to understand that human beings—and especially the young, who are so exposed to temptation—need incentives to keep the moral law, and it is an evil thing to make it easy for them to break that law. 



Another effect that gives cause for alarm is that *a man who grows accustomed to the use of contraceptive methods may forget the reverence due to a woman, and, disregarding her physical and emotional equilibrium, reduce her to being a mere instrument for the satisfaction of his own desires, no longer considering her as his partner whom he should surround with care and affection. 
*

 Finally, careful consideration should be given to *the danger of this power passing into the hands of those public authorities who care little for the precepts of the moral law.* Who will blame a government which in its attempt to resolve the problems affecting an entire country resorts to the same measures as are regarded as lawful by married people in the solution of a particular family difficulty? Who will prevent public authorities from favoring those contraceptive methods which they consider more effective? Should they regard this as necessary, they may even impose their use on everyone. It could well happen, therefore, that when people, either individually or in family or social life, experience the inherent difficulties of the divine law and are determined to avoid them, they may give into the hands of public authorities the power to intervene in the most personal and intimate responsibility of husband and wife.


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## vtoodler (Mar 12, 2012)

..................................................


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## kinkycurlygurl (Mar 12, 2012)

nicola.kirwan said:


> Natural family planning works.  People don't have to have as many children as nature allows.  God does give us some measure of choice in the matter.
> 
> Hormonal birth control is believed to essentially cause abortions in some instances, which is why many non-Catholic Christians are against it.



That belief is an error. Hormonal birth control prevents inhibits ovulation. No egg in the uterus=sperm with nothing to do.

That's not an abortion.


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## kinkycurlygurl (Mar 12, 2012)

Alicialynn86 said:


> Well
> 
> 
> When I first gave my life to Christ I use to think that birth control was wrong thats because I had no understanding of it. People always say the bible says "Be fruitful and multiply" but it only says that like 2-3 times in the bible and that was when the earth was first being inhabitated. So now the earth is FULLY populated, overly really, so its not a commandment to have a whole lot of children.Now they are cases where a woman was on some type of birth control and she still got pregnant. Well if thats happens, well hey Glory to God. But it is nothing wrong with a woman taking precautions. If you have a husband and a wife that only makes $32,000/year and can't afford children, I would rather them take the steps to prevent pregnancy until they are financially stable verses them bringing kids into this world they cant afford to take care of. But sometimes people have a whole lot of kids and say this will was the of God, and for some it may be. But if you have unprotected sex pregnancy will be the outcome. You should just use wisdom. *Like this women on TV with these 20 kids. She almost died her last two pregnancy and just had a miscarriage. Now by no means am I trying to talk down about this woman. But her health and life is in jeproady.*The bible says God maketh rich and added no sorrow to it.
> ...



Death in childbirth or as a result of many pregnancies used to be fairly common before reliable birth control. Personally, I think that Duggar woman is selfish because she continues to have children when the latest ones are coming out sick and she puts herself and the newest baby at risk of death. I think a woman who already has 19 kids can't afford risks like that. She could leave the 19 kids she already has motherless. I guess a harsh person could say that the older ones can take care of the younger ones, but all of them want and need their mother alive.


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## kinkycurlygurl (Mar 12, 2012)

loolalooh said:


> The bolded is not biblical statement.  Source: http://bible.org/seriespage/heavenly-minded-and-earthly-good-1-corinthians-318-45
> 
> It also goes against this Scripture:
> 
> ...



Jesus didn't have any children.


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## kinkycurlygurl (Mar 12, 2012)

I think it's fine for every woman to choose for herself when and if she wants to use birth control. However, I believe that birth control methods should be available to everyone who chooses to use them. I don't think any group should force their beliefs about birth control on others. 

For me, that means there should be education about contraceptive options, and women and men should be able to purchase the contraception method of their choice without stigma or shame if they choose to use it. I would never want to roll the laws back to a time when contraception was illegal. 

At the same time, people who choose not to use contraception should be left in peace with that decision too.


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## Galadriel (Mar 12, 2012)

kinkycurlygurl said:


> That belief is an error. Hormonal birth control prevents inhibits ovulation. No egg in the uterus=sperm with nothing to do.
> 
> That's not an abortion.




Ovulation is not always suppressed by oral contraceptives (especially with the "morning after" pill or the "week after" pill (ELLA)). 



In these cases,  the egg is fertilized, conception takes place, and a new human being begins to  develop. These contraceptives interfere with the pregnancy by changing the  lining of the uterus so that a newly conceived child cannot implant in the womb.  This hostile environment causes the fertilized egg to die.


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## Galadriel (Mar 12, 2012)

kinkycurlygurl said:


> Death in childbirth or as a result of many pregnancies used to be fairly common before reliable birth control.



Stats please?


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## kinkycurlygurl (Mar 13, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> Ovulation is not always suppressed by oral contraceptives (especially with the "morning after" pill or the "week after" pill (ELLA)).
> 
> 
> 
> In these cases,  the egg is fertilized, conception takes place, and a new human being begins to  develop. These contraceptives interfere with the pregnancy by changing the  lining of the uterus so that a newly conceived child cannot implant in the womb.  This hostile environment causes the fertilized egg to die.



Right, but I was referring to normal hormonal contraceptives that one would take on a daily basis. The morning after pill is an emergency measure to prevent the implantation of an egg or end a very new pregnancy. I think the morning after pill should be available to those who want it.


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## kinkycurlygurl (Mar 13, 2012)

No. 1420. Live Births, Deaths, Infant Deaths, and Maternal Deaths: 
1900 to 1997 
[Prior to 1960, excludes Alaska and Hawaii. Beginning 1970, excludes births to, and deaths of nonresidents of the United States. 
See Appendix III. 1900-1930, deaths for death registration states only] 
Year 
Number (1,000) Rate per 1,000 population Death rates per 100,000 population 
Births 
Deaths 
Births 
Deaths 
Tuber- 
culosis, 
all 
forms 
Malig- 
nant 
neo- 
plasms 3 
Major 
cardio- 
vascu- 
lar/ 
renal 
dis- 
eases 
Influ- 
enza 
and 
pneu- 
monia 4 
Motor 
vehicle 
acci- 
dents 5 
Total Infant 1 Total Infant 1 Mater- 
nal 2 
1900 . . . . (NA) (NA) (NA) (NA) 17.2 (NA) (NA) 194.4 64.0 345.2 202.2 (NA) 
1905 . . . . (NA) (NA) (NA) (NA) 15.9 (NA) (NA) 179.9 73.4 384.0 169.3 (NA) 
1910 . . . . 2,777 697 (NA) 30.1 14.7 (NA) (NA) 153.8 76.2 371.9 155.9 1.8 
1915 . . . . 2,965 816 78 29.5 13.2 99.9 60.8 140.1 80.7 383.5 145.9 5.8 
1920 . . . . 2,950 1,118 130 27.7 13.0 85.8 79.9 113.1 83.4 364.9 207.3 10.3 
1925 . . . . 2,909 1,192 135 25.1 11.7 71.7 64.7 84.8 92.0 391.5 121.7 16.8 
1930 . . . . 2,618 1,327 142 21.3 11.3 64.6 67.3 71.1 97.4 414.4 102.5 26.7 
1935 . . . . 2,377 1,393 120 18.7 10.9 55.7 58.2 55.1 108.2 431.2 104.2 28.6 
1940 . . . . 2,559 1,417 111 19.4 10.8 47.0 37.6 45.9 120.3 485.7 70.3 26.2 
1945 . . . . 2,858 1,402 105 20.4 10.6 38.3 20.7 39.9 134.0 508.2 51.6 21.2 
1950 . . . . 3,632 1,452 104 24.1 9.6 29.2 8.3 22.5 139.8 510.8 31.3 23.1 
1955 . . . . 4,104 1,529 107 25.0 9.3 26.4 4.7 9.1 146.5 506.0 27.1 23.4 
1957 . . . . 4,308 1,633 112 25.3 9.6 26.3 4.1 7.8 148.6 523.4 35.8 22.7 
1960 . . . . 4,258 1,712 111 23.7 9.5 26.0 3.7 6.1 149.2 521.8 37.3 21.3 
1965 . . . . 3,760 1,828 93 19.4 9.4 24.7 3.2 4.1 153.5 516.4 31.9 25.4 
1970 . . . . 3,731 1,921 75 18.4 9.5 20.0 2.2 2.6 162.8 496.0 30.9 26.9 
1975 . . . . 3,144 1,893 51 14.6 9.1 16.1 1.5 1.6 171.7 455.8 26.1 21.5 
1980 . . . . 3,612 1,990 46 15.9 8.5 12.6 1.0 0.9 183.9 436.4 24.1 23.5 
1985 . . . . 3,761 2,086 40 15.8 8.6 10.6 0.8 0.7 194.0 411.0 28.4 19.3 
1990 . . . . 4,158 2,148 38 16.7 8.6 9.2 0.8 0.7 203.2 368.3 32.0 18.8 
1995 . . . . 3,900 2,312 30 14.8 8.8 7.6 0.8 0.5 204.9 362.1 31.6 16.5 
1997 . . . . 3,895 2,315 28 14.6 8.6 7.1 0.8 0.4 200.8 352.2 33.0 15.8 
NA Not available. 1 Infants under 1 year, excluding fetal deaths; rates per 1,000 registered live births. 2 Per 10,000 live 
births from deliveries and complications of pregnancy, childbirth, and the puerperium. Beginning 1979, deaths are classified 
according to the ninth revision of the International Classification of Diseases; earlier years classified according to the revision in 
use at the time; see text, Section 2, Vital Statistics. 3 Includes neoplasms of lymphatic and hematopoietic tissues. 4 All years, 
excludes pneumonia of newborn; 1900-1920, excludes capillary bronchitis. 5 1910-1925, excludes automobile collisions with 
trains and streetcars and motorcycle accidents. 
Source: 1900-1970, U.S. Public Health Service, Vital Statistics of the United States, annual, Vol. I and Vol. II; 1971-1997, U.S. 
National Center for Health Statistics, Vital Statistics of the United States, annual; National Vital Statistics Report (NVSR) (formerly 
Monthly Vital Statistics Report); and unpublished data. 
You can download the pdf from the US Census Bureau here: www.census.gov/prod/99pubs/99statab/sec31.pdf

Sorry it didn't paste in well


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## aribell (Mar 13, 2012)

kinkycurlygurl said:


> Right, but I was referring to normal hormonal contraceptives that one would take on a daily basis. The morning after pill is an emergency measure to prevent the implantation of an egg or end a very new pregnancy. I think the morning after pill should be available to those who want it.



The pill works to stop ovulation, but is not always successful.  The pill also prevents the lining from forming in a woman's uterus so that a fertilized egg will not attach and will simply be passed out of the woman's system.  There are many who consider this happening even once to be abortifacient and therefore unacceptable.


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## aribell (Mar 13, 2012)

kinkycurlygurl said:


> Death in childbirth *or as a result of many pregnancies* used to be fairly common before reliable birth control.



The chart presented shows the number of deaths from 1900 till 1997.  It makes no connection between the death rate and the number of pregnancies the woman had, nor how many other children she had borne.  Death in childbirth and death as a result of multiple pregnancies are very different.  

Declines in the rate of deaths in childbirth and infant mortality are largely attributed to  improvements the medical field, the introduction of antibiotics, controlling infectious disease, improving prenatal care, and so on.  Women  being pregnant less often because of birth control wouldn't improve the _rate_ of deaths occurring.


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## divya (Mar 13, 2012)

Never really gave this much thought. God requires His people to be responsible and I've always perceived BC/contraception as being responsible within the context of marriage (though it's important to be careful with the medicines we put into our system). To me, each couple should move according to conviction. Interesting discussion though...


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## Galadriel (Mar 13, 2012)

kinkycurlygurl said:


> Right, but I was referring to normal hormonal contraceptives that one would take on a daily basis. The morning after pill is an emergency measure to prevent the implantation of an egg or end a very new pregnancy. I think the morning after pill should be available to those who want it.



The pill, IUD, etc. can fall under this.


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## Galadriel (Mar 13, 2012)

nicola.kirwan said:


> The chart presented shows the number of deaths from 1900 till 1997.  It makes no connection between the death rate and the number of pregnancies the woman had, nor how many other children she had borne.  Death in childbirth and death as a result of multiple pregnancies are very different.
> 
> Declines in the rate of deaths in childbirth and infant mortality are largely attributed to  improvements the medical field, the introduction of antibiotics, controlling infectious disease, improving prenatal care, and so on.  Women  being pregnant less often because of birth control wouldn't improve the _rate_ of deaths occurring.



Also, the stats will also count a pregnant woman dying in a car accident as "maternal death" simply b/c she died as a pregnant woman. So one would have to really look at the direct causes of death.


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## dicapr (Mar 13, 2012)

Contraception is a personal decision between God and the married couple. No matter what the "choice" God is still in control.  There are couples who do nothing to prevent pregnancy and do not have any children and others who have undergone sterilization procedures who have surprise pregnancies.  God is in control.  To me, using or not using birth control is merely an expression of desire.  God still decides and controls the outcome.


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