# Lord Help us All



## LucieLoo12 (Jul 29, 2013)

*I took this from out the ET thread because I did not want to deal with that over there, but would like to discuss it here*


*Pope: 'Who am I to judge' gay people?








*
*By Anne Thompson and Henry Austin, NBC News*


Pope Francis on Monday said “who am I to judge?” gay people as he discussed one of the most divisive issues affecting the Catholic Church. 

“I have yet to find anyone who has a business card that says he is gay,” the pontiff said at a press conference in which he addressed the reports of a "gay lobby" within the Vatican.

“They say they exist. If someone is gay, who searches for the Lord and has goodwill, who am I to judge?” he added. "The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains this very well. It says they should not be marginalized because of this (orientation) but that they must be integrated into society."

"The problem is not having this orientation. We must be brothers. The problem is lobbying by this orientation, or lobbies of greedy people, political lobbies, Masonic lobbies, so many lobbies. This is the worse problem," he said. 

The press conference, which lasted for an hour and 20 minutes, was held during the flight back from his week-long trip to Brazil. 

Father Thomas J. Reece, a senior analyst at the National Catholic Reporter, said he thought Francis meant that "if a person is a homosexual and that person is trying to live a good life, it’s not our place to judge them."

"This is very significant I think,” he said. “I think that recently under Pope Benedict there was a move to say that homosexuals could not be priests, that if they were seminarians they should be thrown out," he said.

“I think that Pope Francis is saying something quite different here. 

Whether you’re a homosexual or a heterosexual the question is whether they can live a celibate life. Other things coming out of Rome were quite different, just a few years ago," he added.


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## sweetvi (Jul 29, 2013)

Yeah.... I saw that and ......


erplexed


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## LucieLoo12 (Jul 29, 2013)

Here is my 2 cents 


I am really tired of people using this "dont judge me" stuff. And I really disgusted at this comment by the Pope. Who are you to judge? The question he should have asked is "Who am I to inform the people about the laws and standard of God? Um, isn't that your job? 



I will be back to post more


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## sweetvi (Jul 29, 2013)

The thing that gets me is how people pick and choose what they think makes them feel comfortable from the bible, but fails to finish reading the entire scripture and/or book.

There are several scriptures that indicates judge righteously, to test the spirits, to use discernment, and to not be led astray! However, IMO, I am always labeled judgmental and right winged?!  I usually answer with take it up to GOD when you die why homosexuality is a sin and they will not enter heaven if they haven't repented. I did not write the bible....


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## Galadriel (Jul 29, 2013)

Be careful ladies, the MSM has run away with Pope Francis's statement and distorted its true context.

The Catechism teaches that you haven't sinned by having a homosexual orientation, but you DO sin when you act on it (gay sex). This is what Pope Francis was referring to when he spoke of them being integrated into society and being welcomed in the Church. We all have sins and weaknesses we are dealing with, yet we are all called to overcome sin through Christ.



> “They say they exist. If someone is gay, who searches for the Lord and has goodwill, who am I to judge?”



There are many Catholics struggling w/ homosexuality who strive to follow Church teaching and *do not engage in homosexual sex*, do not advocate it, and regularly go to Church and confession. THESE are the ones Francis is referring to--because they are clearly seeking God and striving to do His will. In fact, a Catholic ministry called "Courage" has recently held an event where they helped ministered to Catholics struggling with homosexuality and encourage them to live by Church teaching and remain chaste.

I would have liked to see where CNN was when Pope Francis said about gay marriage:

"At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother and children. At stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance, and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. At stake is the total rejection of God’s law engraved in our hearts. Let us not be naive: This is not simply a political struggle, but it is an attempt to destroy God’s plan. It [pro-gay marriage bill] is not just a bill (a mere instrument) but a ‘move’ of the father of lies who seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.”

Sounds like he has some judgment going on there.

Whenever MSM says "Pope Francis Said X" I always go and research first to read his actual words and not just what CNN or the New York Times said he did. It's the same thing with the "Pope Francis Says Everyone Is Saved"--he didn't say that, yet once again, they distorted his words to fit their own agenda.


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## MrsHaseeb (Jul 29, 2013)

Ill go read before I comment...


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## LucieLoo12 (Jul 29, 2013)

http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/wo.../2013/07/29/ns-pope-gay-not-a-crime-women.cnn


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## Galadriel (Jul 29, 2013)

LucieLoo12 said:


> http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/wo.../2013/07/29/ns-pope-gay-not-a-crime-women.cnn



And the problem with that was...?

Being gay (i.e., having same sex attraction) isn't committing a sin. And if a gay person is striving to live a Christian life and not engage in gay sex, then that's a good thing, right? 

Same sex attraction (or homosexual orientation) is a disordered desire, but is not a sin. Engaging in homosexual sex is a sin.

Being tempted to drink alcohol when one knows he has a weakness for alcohol abuse isn't a sin, but engaging in alcohol abuse is sinful.


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## JudithO (Jul 29, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> Be careful ladies, the MSM has run away with Pope Francis's statement and distorted its true context.
> 
> The Catechism teaches that you haven't sinned by having a homosexual orientation, but you DO sin when you act on it (gay sex). This is what Pope Francis was referring to when he spoke of them being integrated into society and being welcomed in the Church. We all have sins and weaknesses we are dealing with, yet we are all called to overcome sin through Christ.
> 
> ...



THIS!!!! 

I agree with the Pope completely.... Christ engaged with prostitutes and never judged them, doesn't mean he condones prostitution. As Christians we can condemn the act of engaging in homosexual sex, like we condemn all other sins.... But we MUST be careful to not judge those who are attracted to people of the same sex... That goes against what Christ teaches us to do.


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## aribell (Jul 29, 2013)

JudithO said:


> THIS!!!!
> 
> I agree with the Pope completely.... Christ engaged with prostitutes and never judged them, doesn't mean he condones prostitution. As Christians we can condemn the act of engaging in homosexual sex, like we condemn all other sins.... *But we MUST be careful to not judge those who are attracted to people of the same sex.*.. That goes against what Christ teaches us to do.



I don't think that all Christians have embraced this, which is where much of the rub is.  There is the idea that anyone who truly repents and seeks help will be healed of those disordered desires.  While there is healing available, like with anything else, how and when it will come (and whether it will be in this life or the next) depends on what the Lord does in that individual's heart.  

I think that the world may have been receiving the wrong message from a lot of believers--that simply having those attractions means you're bad, damned, etc...well, no more so than anyone else, or rather, just like everyone else born after the Fall.  The question is whether we will commit ourselves to righteousness by God's grace.


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## MrsHaseeb (Jul 29, 2013)

I read it... I'm sorry, but what he said is still wrong. This might sound ugly but its in love because I can't agree with what he said and we have to speak the truth in love. This is not an attack on anyone who is Catholic, although I know how it will be received. Now... We can sit here and say all the cute things we want about how the sexual sin is in the homosexual act itself. The Bible disagrees with such a theory. Romans 1 refers to homosexual orientation as a vile affection. Jesus also says in Matthew that lust in the heart means you pretty much have committed the act. That's something people need to be delivered from, and sitting them in a church doing religious stuff will not cleanse their heart of the vile desire for the same sex! That has to be a real cause of suffering for homosexuals to be forced to deal with that type of torment. 

There were former homosexuals amongst the first believers and Paul says they were washed, cleansed, sanctified, justified by the blood of Jesus. That's why Jesus died, to completely purge a person of inordinate and vile affections, not for them to stay in it and have a "homosexual orientation" while staying away from the act. That's not deliverance, it's bondage. Why amongst the early believers was there Holy Ghost power for people to be delivered but in this dried up junk called church people are forced to be bound to backwards desires and told to do religious stuff and that will cleanse them? Thats foolishness. But accommodation has to be made because of the fact that so much sodomy is going on, not just in the Catholic church but others as well. You can't be in covenant with sin and get people delivered. You can't be in covenant with sin and take a real stand against it. Homosexuality is demonic and Satan can't cast out Satan. If the so called church world was purged of homosexuals most of them would cease to function. This is why people in "church" are disempowered to stand up and come against this in the power and authority if the Holy Spirit. There was no need to twist his words... What he said was still wrong. I really feel for homosexuals... It breaks my heart for them to be told they have to be bound to a the desires for the same sex and not act on them. Some of these people want real deliverance and they will never find it in most churches.  I don't care how much emphasis is put on so called chastity and holiness, if these people aren't delivered from the demonic stronghold you will have a church fool of ravening homosexuals and all kinds of sexual sin and filth and this is exactly what we're seeing.


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## aribell (Jul 29, 2013)

Regarding vile affections, let's say there is a man, a straight man, who is often tempted to lust after women.  Even if he sins and repents, or just continues to have the temptation, no one will say that he is damned because of it.  Scripture does say that we are tempted because of what is in our heart, and yet temptation is not sin.  

Someone who is gay has a temptation they have to deal with--a form of lust, whether it be in the heart or the act.  A lustful heart is wrong regardless of one's gender or the gender of the person toward whom its directed.  If one does not give into the temptation to lust or to fornicate, there is no sin.


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## LucieLoo12 (Jul 29, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> And the problem with that was...?
> 
> Being gay (i.e., having same sex attraction) isn't committing a sin. And if a gay person is striving to live a Christian life and not engage in gay sex, then that's a good thing, right?
> 
> ...


 
If you are homosexual and you are striving to live for Christ, He will purify your heart to where you no longer desire it. I'm not saying homosexual can't come to God, but when they come , God is going to change them. Do you think Christ would leave something in your heart that can eventually lead you to sin? He came to not just cleanse us from the act of sin, but the desire from it as well


I just don't know where these statements originate from because they are not biblical..,


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## LucieLoo12 (Jul 29, 2013)

nicola.kirwan said:


> Regarding vile affections, let's say there is a man, a straight man, who is often tempted to lust after women. Even if he sins and repents, or just continues to have the temptation, no one will say that he is damned because of it. Scripture does say that we are tempted because of what is in our heart, and yet temptation is not sin.
> 
> Someone who is gay has a temptation they have to deal with--a form of lust, whether it be in the heart or the act. A lustful heart is wrong regardless of one's gender or the gender of the person toward whom its directed. If one does not give into the temptation to lust or to fornicate, there is no sin.


 
This is the scripture you are referring to, but you must expound on the WHOLE scripture.

James 1:14-15

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 *Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin:* *and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.*

*If there is a lust there it will be fulfilled. People think they have control over their urges and desires, but they dont. You have to have the power of the holy ghost to control that inner man. And the Holy Ghost will purge things out of your heart, not leave them there. The holy ghost reproves sin and leads you into TRUTH. *


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## MrsHaseeb (Jul 29, 2013)

nicola.kirwan said:


> I don't think that all Christians have embraced this, which is where much of the rub is.  There is the idea that anyone who truly repents and seeks help will be healed of those disordered desires.  While there is healing available, like with anything else, how and when it will come (and whether it will be in this life or the next) depends on what the Lord does in that individual's heart.
> 
> I think that the world may have been receiving the wrong message from a lot of believers--that simply having those attractions means you're bad, damned, etc...well, no more so than anyone else, or rather, just like everyone else born after the Fall.  The question is whether we will commit ourselves to righteousness by God's grace.



Hi NK. I do think there has to balance but there also has to be truth. It seems that most people don't really believer in the power of God to deliver people. I do... Because I have been delivered from a lot. There is the Fred Phelps extreme which says homosexuals are damned because they are reprobates and can't be saved, which is wicked. Then there is the extreme which leaves people bound and gives them a false deliverance by telling them to stop the act and do religious stuff which is also wicked... The truth is that we have to be born again and Jesus then has to take a person through a process of reformatting their mind, sanctifying them from the old life. Saying that there are Christians with homosexual orientation means only one thing, that person is not born again. I have a *very* close family member who is a lesbian. And I love her. But I don't cut corners with her. I tell her the truth. And while she hasn't repented, she loves and respects me. There is a way to deal with such people in love and let them know they don't have to be bound.

I must be the odd man out because I believe in the power of God to deliver from us from sin. That's why Jesus came. Homosexuals are not harder to be delivered than those living in other sexual sin. All sexual sin (and sin period) is hard to be free from but the anointing of the Holy Ghost will loose the bands of wickedness for a person who wants to be free. Seems like people don't have faith in Christ for real deliverance. That's where my issue comes in with most professing Christians and the excuse being made for why there are so many homosexual is churches.


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## LucieLoo12 (Jul 29, 2013)

JudithO said:


> THIS!!!!
> 
> I agree with the Pope completely.... Christ engaged with prostitutes and never judged them, doesn't mean he condones prostitution. As Christians we can condemn the act of engaging in homosexual sex, like we condemn all other sins.... But we MUST be careful to not judge those who are attracted to people of the same sex... That goes against what Christ teaches us to do.


 

I dont judge them at all nor do I look down on them. I may have never been gay, but I have been very low before and entangled in all types of sin. But I don't  make them feel they have to be stuck in that condition and I make them aware that Christ does not approve it. I have never approached a homosexual and said " You going to burn in hell you wicked evil person" NOR is that my mind towards them. But I come to them in the spirit of love, letting them know they can be set free. That God can give them power over that.


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## aribell (Jul 29, 2013)

Yes, there is definitely a process of sanctification.  Are we prepared to tell someone how long it will take?  Will we tell them it will be instantaneous?  Will it take 3 months?  A year?  5 years before they are completely purified?

What is their "status" in the time between when they seek the Lord and receive their complete purification and healing?

The fact that we cannot answer that question is, I think, a large part of the underlying reasoning for the statements that were made.  *If the person is seeking God*, he said, then they are in His hands and, of course, He is working things out in them.  Now, who will determine the timeline and exactly when it will happen?  I think the Lord alone has that answer, as it is His Spirit that is working in that person.  



LucieLoo12 said:


> This is the scripture you are referring to, but you must expound on the WHOLE scripture.
> 
> James 1:14-15
> 
> ...



Right.  I said that all lust is wrong.  To have a temptation is not to have lust.  As you highlighted, when lust--not temptation--has conceived, it brings forth sin.  It seems that you are equating temptation with lust and they are not the same.


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## MrsHaseeb (Jul 29, 2013)

nicola.kirwan said:


> Regarding vile affections, let's say there is a man, a straight man, who is often tempted to lust after women.  Even if he sins and repents, or just continues to have the temptation, no one will say that he is damned because of it.  Scripture does say that we are tempted because of what is in our heart, and yet temptation is not sin.
> 
> Someone who is gay has a temptation they have to deal with--a form of lust, whether it be in the heart or the act.  A lustful heart is wrong regardless of one's gender or the gender of the person toward whom its directed.  If one does not give into the temptation to lust or to fornicate, there is no sin.



I absolutely agree. The enemy is going to tempt people with what he knows is their weakness. However, its normal for a man to like, or have a natural attraction to a woman and vice versa. But an attraction to the same sex is a vile attraction, demonic at the root and must be dealt with as such. All lust is sin. Natural, God-given attraction is not. I think those are 2 totally different things. Meditating on illicit sex is wrong no matter who does it. The devil may tempt a person with something if they resist him while being fully submitted to God he will flee. When the devil is not fleeing and a person is struggling and being tempted for years with the same thing, somewhere they are not resisting. They are giving in. That's why I don't believe a person truly born again will have to continue to operate with a "homosexual orientation".


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## Galadriel (Jul 29, 2013)

MrsHaseeb

We neither teach nor believe that a homosexual orientation is innocuous. We categorize it as a *disordered desire*. It's a disordered desire because it deviates from the proper order God has mandated for sex and its place and purpose (marriage & procreation between a man and woman).

Homosexual attraction isn't the only disordered desire among human beings. We have all kinds of disordered desires and predispositions.

Homosexual attraction is disordered, but homosexual sex (or engaging in lustful thoughts) is sinful.

A sin is a thought, behavior, or action that violates God's moral law. An orientation is not a thought or behavior or action. While the feeling or desire itself is disordered, it is not a sin. However, if a homosexual were to engage in lustful thoughts or sexual behavior, it would be a sin.

I'm a heterosexual woman, so I guess my orientation would be heterosexual, but that doesn't automatically make me virtuous. While my heterosexual orientation makes my attraction to men "properly ordered,"  if I lust after a man other than my husband (thoughts) or engage in adultery (behavior/action), then I am sinning.

I am not making these arguments just to poke a stick in your eye, but I just want to clearly explain my beliefs as well as show concern for Catholics and Christians who struggle with same sex attraction who agree with what the Bible teaches and reject engaging in homosexual sex, and who are fighting to live a Christian life.

Do some people with same sex attraction go through counseling or ministry and move on to get married to someone of the opposite sex? Yes. And bless them for it.

Not all go on to get married, and if they don't marry, then at least let them live chastely. And by living a chaste life, it involves more than simply abstaining from sex, it integrates the full person, and in giving themselves to Christ fully in chastity, there they will find their freedom and deliverance.




MrsHaseeb said:


> I read it... I'm sorry, but what he said is still wrong. This might sound ugly but its in love because I can't agree with what he said and we have to speak the truth in love. This is not an attack on anyone who is Catholic, although I know how it will be received. Now... We can sit here and say all the cute things we want about how the sexual sin is in the homosexual act itself. The Bible disagrees with such a theory. Romans 1 refers to homosexual orientation as a vile affection. Jesus also says in Matthew that lust in the heart means you pretty much have committed the act. That's something people need to be delivered from, and sitting them in a church doing religious stuff will not cleanse their heart of the vile desire for the same sex! That has to be a real cause of suffering for homosexuals to be forced to deal with that type of torment.
> 
> There were former homosexuals amongst the first believers and Paul says they were washed, cleansed, sanctified, justified by the blood of Jesus. That's why Jesus died, to completely purge a person of inordinate and vile affections, not for them to stay in it and have a "homosexual orientation" while staying away from the act. That's not deliverance, it's bondage. Why amongst the early believers was there Holy Ghost power for people to be delivered but in this dried up junk called church people are forced to be bound to backwards desires and told to do religious stuff and that will cleanse them? Thats foolishness. But accommodation has to be made because of the fact that so much sodomy is going on, not just in the Catholic church but others as well. You can't be in covenant with sin and get people delivered. You can't be in covenant with sin and take a real stand against it. Homosexuality is demonic and Satan can't cast out Satan. If the so called church world was purged of homosexuals most of them would cease to function. This is why people in "church" are disempowered to stand up and come against this in the power and authority if the Holy Spirit. There was no need to twist his words... What he said was still wrong. I really feel for homosexuals... It breaks my heart for them to be told they have to be bound to a the desires for the same sex and not act on them. Some of these people want real deliverance and they will never find it in most churches.  I don't care how much emphasis is put on so called chastity and holiness, if these people aren't delivered from the demonic stronghold you will have a church fool of ravening homosexuals and all kinds of sexual sin and filth and this is exactly what we're seeing.


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## MrsHaseeb (Jul 29, 2013)

nicola.kirwan said:


> Yes, there is definitely a process of sanctification.  Are we prepared to tell someone how long it will take?  Will we tell them it will be instantaneous?  Will it take 3 months?  A year?  5 years before they are completely purified?
> 
> What is their "status" in the time between when they seek the Lord and receive their complete purification and healing?
> 
> ...



Modern Christianity has become hopeless when we feel we have to leave people bound to these types of things. Does nobody have the power to pray for deliverance for these people and have real faith that it will happen?! Even the so called successor of Peter who was so anointed his shadow healed and cast out demons? The same Peter who raised a dead woman? The God who parted the red sea, raised people from the dead, healed the lame and maimed, opened blind eyes and cleansed lepers has to leave a homosexual bound to inordinate desires? What god is this?? It cant be the one i serve. This breaks my heart. Homosexuality is no different from heterosexual fornication. Its just as hard to stop heterosexual fornication, porn addiction, or masturbation. Are we really saying a homosexual can't have a truly born again experience where they can be instantly free? Most professing Christians have bought into the lie of the gay agenda... That's homosexuality is so hard to be delivered from that it may never happen...No wonder the world doesn't take God seriously. Professing Christians don't even take the power of God seriously.


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## MrsHaseeb (Jul 29, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> MrsHaseeb
> 
> We neither teach nor believe that a homosexual orientation is innocuous. We categorize it as a disordered desire. It's a disordered desire because it deviates from the proper order God has mandated for sex and its place and purpose (marriage & procreation between a man and woman).
> 
> ...



I understand everything you said. But this is not the old covenant. We are under the new covenant where the.power of the Holy Spirit is available to all who repents. There is no excuse for this. Homosexual desire is demonic. The reason that person has disordered desires is not due to some mental disorder, it's due to a demon. I know this is going to cause some offense and thats unfortunate but it needs to be said. The reason the Catholic church, along with many protestant churches say being a homosexual isn't a sin and only the act is is because of the huge amount of homosexuals operating within their churches, many times as leaders. That's just not Biblical. Doesn't matter what someones church doctrine says. Christ didnt die for people to be living as homosexuals for years and years. This is why there is so much sin in churches, everybody is making excuses for it and trying to change people outwardly and not dealing with the desires. This is why we have priests sodomizing children and people like Eddie Long and other protestants doing the same thing right in what professes to be a church. I'm done... This is so disheartening. I must work out my own salvation. Ill leave all the people who want to remain deceived by false doctrine to themselves.


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## Galadriel (Jul 29, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> Homosexuality is no different from heterosexual fornication.



But look at what you just did--you just equated the orientation with the *act* of fornication. An orientation isn't an action.




MrsHaseeb said:


> Its just as hard to stop heterosexual fornication, porn addiction, or masturbation.



Fornication is engaging in sex outside of marriage between two unmarried persons.

Pornography is engaging in lustful thoughts as well as participating in the exploitation of people and stripping them of their dignity.

Masturbation is the physical stimulation of one's self for sexual pleasure.

All of these are actions or behaviors which are sinful. If one were to have gay sex, it would also be sinful.



MrsHaseeb said:


> Are we really saying a homosexual can't have a truly born again experience where they can be instantly free?



I believe a person can be freed, yes. They can find that freedom through the transforming grace of Jesus Christ. For some, it's instant, for others it's a fight they must fight for a while. If they find a spouse, then good. If they remain chaste, then good.



MrsHaseeb said:


> Most professing Christians have bought into the lie of the gay agenda...



Hey, you're talking to the lady who got jumped on a couple of weeks ago in OT for saying homosexual sex was a perversion of what sex should be .



MrsHaseeb said:


> That's homosexuality is so hard to be delivered from that it may never happen...



I don't think anyone has said or advocated that. At least I haven't.


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## BEAUTYU2U (Jul 29, 2013)

LucieLoo12 said:


> Here is my 2 cents
> 
> I am really tired of people using this "dont judge me" stuff. And I really disgusted at this comment by the Pope. Who are you to judge? The question he should have asked is "Who am I to inform the people about the laws and standard of God? Um, isn't that your job?
> 
> I will be back to post more



I think those are two separate issues. Informing, yes. Judging, no.


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## felic1 (Jul 29, 2013)

LucieLoo12... uh yes the truth of the word of God is the responsibility of any able minister of the new testament. Can he not tell people the truth in love? God hates sin. Not people.


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## JaneBond007 (Jul 29, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> There are many Catholics struggling w/ homosexuality who strive to follow Church teaching and *do not engage in homosexual sex*, do not advocate it, and regularly go to Church and confession. .



I agree...and further....



I should have placed my first response here, just now saw it.  Well, that's not totally true either.  Yes, they do engage in homosexual sex...just that they repent of it and try, try again to remain chaste.  This is something so many christians do not want to believe.  But they (heterosexuals) are not weighing their own sins on the same scales.  Homosexuals in Christ are no more called into chastity than liars are called to truth-telling and thieves to retribution and charity.  Somehow, this is the disgust, fear and veiled hatred I sense against the gay community...or community of gay people, if you can truly call it that.  There are support groups for gays in the church (as there are for divorcees, single parents, singles wishing to marry etc.) and I'm not pointing to those who promote the lifestyle of acts.  But there is a very palpable hatred and disgust for gay people.  I am proud that Pope Francis is our Vicar.  We need to stop judging people for their sexual orientations as we do not know why they have them.  We don't likewise know why some people have the orientation towards adultery, abuse, criminality etc. either.

As for instant delivery, well, that can have very different outcomes.  The most common is a lifetime of mortifications of the flesh, failing and repenting.  It is most likely (for the catholic) a life of sadness, longing, desiring of a relationship.  If those people should marry heterosexually, I wouldn't advise it at all.  Do I believe there are some people who have been instantly delivered?  Sure, but I also believe those are few and far between.  They are absolute miracles - not the norm of those who answer the call to Jesus.  Their cross is going to be intensely difficult for a lifetime.  In other words, if Jesus is not healing all the people asking for an instant miracle to walk, to be free of cancer, to regrow lost limbs and have sight restored, then gays are probably joining in the line of those whose cross is extremely painful.  Maybe _that_ is the *WAY*.


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## Galadriel (Jul 29, 2013)

JaneBond007 said:


> Their cross is going to be intensely difficult for a lifetime.



JaneBond007 and we all have our crosses to bear (which comes in many forms, depending on our weaknesses)--to which Jesus says to take up our cross and follow Him .


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## JaneBond007 (Jul 29, 2013)

Before charging the RCC with false doctrine, it should behoove one to factually know what it teaches.  Here is a concise summary on the matter in the form of a blog entry.  Thus, it cannot be said that the RCC promotes "demonic" homosexuality:

http://lasalettejourney.blogspot.com/2005/02/homosexuality-and-catholic-doctrine.html


Homosexuality and Catholic doctrine
While it is certainly true that homosexual persons "must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity" and that "every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided" (CCC, 2358), still, the premise that homosexuality is a God-given orientation which must be accepted and affirmed by society is erroneous.

Dr. Richard Fitzgibbons, a Philadelphia area psychiatrist whose specialty is reparative therapy for those who suffer from same-sex attractions, has said that "..homosexuality is an attraction and not an orientation. In some ways homosexuality represents a false identity - a failure to develop that proper masculinity or femininity which God desires. Homosexuality is therefore considered to be an objective disorder."

And this is precisely the teaching of the Catholic Church: "The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial." (CCC, 2358).

Homosexuality and lesbianism are both on the increase. This fact is highly significant. Dr. Abram Kardiner, distinguished physician, psychoanalyst and anthropologist, states that homosexuality reaches pestilential and plague proportions in morally rotting societies during the final stages of total collapse.

According to Catholic doctrine, any disorderly tendency, above all to a vice contrary to nature, cannot have a right to citizenship in a person's thoughts. If someone in his mind makes a concession to this tendency, he sins. This is why in the Confiteor one asks forgiveness for thoughts, words and deeds.

As for the act of sodomy, it constitutes a sin that cries out to Heaven and clamors to God for vengeance (See Gn 18:20; Gn 19:12-13; Lv 18:22; Lv 18"24-28; Lv 20:13; 1 Cor 6: 9-10; Rm 1: 24-27; 2 Pt 2:4-9; Jd 7:8).

It is an ominous fact that the "gay" movement is having its way of life (more accurately its way of death) redefined as a simple variant of normal sexuality and woven into the fabric of society. The movement to legitimize homosexuality runs contrary to the constant teaching of the Church. In fact, Saint Thomas Aquinas, writing about sins against nature, explains: "..they are called passions of ignominy because they are not worthy of being named, according to that passage in Ephesians (5:12): 'For the things that are done by them in secret, it is a shame even to speak of.' For if the sins of the flesh are commonly censurable because they lead man to that which is bestial in him, much more so is the sin against nature, by which man debases himself lower than even his animal nature." (St. Thomas Aquinas, Super Epistulas Sancti Pauli Ad Romanum, I, 26, pp. 27f).

Saint Catherine of Sienna, a religious mystic of the 14th century, relays words of Our Lord Jesus Christ about the vice against nature, which contaminated part of the clergy in her time. Referring to sacre ministers, He says: "They not only fail from resisting this frailty (of fallen human nature)...but do even worse as they commit the cursed sin against nature. Like the blind and stupid, having dimmed the light of their understanding, they do not recognize the disease and misery in which they find themselves. For this not only causes Me nausea, but displeases even the demons themselves, whom these miserable creatures have chosen as their lords. For Me, this sin against nature is so abominable that, for it alone, five cities were submersed, by virtue of the judgment of My divine justice, which could no longer bear them...It is disagreeable to the demons, not because evil displeases them and they find pleasure in good, but because their nature is angelic and thus is repulsed upon seeing such an enormous sin being committed. It is true that it is the demon who hits the sinner with the poisoned arrow of lust, but when a man carries out such a sinful act, the demon leaves." (St. Catherine of Sienna, El dialogo, in Obras de Santa Catarina de Siena, Madrid: BAC, 1991, p. 292).

Tertullian, the great apologist of the Church in the second century, writes: 'We condemn all those who give themselves over to the excesses of luxury contrary to natural law...and expel them from the bosom of the Church, for such acts are greater monstrosities than sins." (Tertullian, De pudicitia, IV, in J. McNeill, La Iglesia ante la homosexualidad, p. 134).

Saint Augustine is just as frank in his condemnation of sodomy and similar vices: "Sins against nature, therefore, like the sin of Sodom, are abominable and deserve punishment whenever and wherever they are committed...for our Maker did not prescribe that we should use each other in this way. In fact, the relationship that we ought to have with God is itself violated when our nature, of which He is Author, is desecrated by perverted lust." (St. Augustine, Confessions, New York: Penguin, 1967; Book III. Chap 8, p.65).

If the events of September 11th are a warning, and I believe that they are, then the clergy sex scandal is a judgment. For years, members of the Church's hierarchy have been ignoring the warnings of Our Lady that toleration (and even promotion of) false teaching would lead to a time of crisis.

Many so-called "scripture scholars" and "moral theologians" have destroyed the faith and morality of millions. Many priests and religious "educators" in turn, influenced by these "scholars" and "theologians" have sown doubt about the scriptures and morality, thereby destroying the faith and morality of countless lay persons.

Their Destroyer is awake and waiting for them.


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## MrsHaseeb (Jul 30, 2013)

Removed


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## Galadriel (Jul 31, 2013)

Don't know if this has been posted, but I hope this makes things a little clearer. This is the Q&A that occurred with Pope Francis when he answered the question. First, he was specifically talking about a particular cleric who had been under investigation, and was speaking of clergy members who had homosexual tendencies, not gays in general. The "I do not judge gays" is the title that the media gave the story, though that specific statement doesn't appear in the actual interview (taken from WDTPRS Blog):

*QUESTION:* I would like to ask permission to pose a rather delicate question.  Another image that went around the world is that of Monsignor Ricca and the news about his personal life.  I would like to know, your Holiness, what will be done about this question.  How should one deal with this question and how does your Holiness wish to deal with the whole question of the gay lobby?

*FRANCIS: *Regarding the matter of Monsignor Ricca, I did what Canon Law required and did the required investigation.  And from the investigation, we did not find anything corresponding to the accusations against him.  We found none of that.  That is the answer.  But I would like to add one more thing to this: I see that so many times in the Church, apart from this case and also in this case, one  looks for the “sins of youth,” for example, is it not thus?, And then these things are published.  These things are not crimes.  The crimes are something else: child abuse is a crime. 

But sins, if a person, or secular priest or a nun, has committed a sin and then that person experienced conversion, the Lord forgives and when the Lord forgives, the Lord forgets and this is very important for our lives.  When we go to confession and we truly say “I have sinned in this matter,” the Lord forgets and we do not have the right to not forget because we run the risk that the Lord will not forget our sins, eh?  This is a danger.  This is what is important: a theology of sin.  So many times I think of St. Peter: he committed one of the worst sins denying Christ.  And with this sin they made him Pope.  We must think about fact often.

But returning to your question more concretely: in this case [Ricca] I did the required investigation and we found nothing.  That is the first question.  Then you spoke of the gay lobby.  Agh… so much is written about the gay lobby.  I have yet to find on a Vatican identity card the word gay.  They say there are some gay people here.  I think that when we encounter a gay person, we must make the distinction between the fact of a person being gay and the fact of a lobby, because lobbies are not good.  They are bad.  If a person is gay and seeks the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge that person?  The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains this point beautifully but says, wait a moment, how does it say, it says, these persons must never be marginalized and “they must be integrated into society.”

The problem is not that one has this tendency; no, we must be brothers, this is the first matter.  There is another problem, another one: the problem is to form a lobby of those who have this tendency, a lobby of the greedy people, a lobby of politicians, a lobby of Masons, so many lobbies.  This is the most serious problem for me. And thank you so much for doing this question. Thank you very much!


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## CoilyFields (Jul 31, 2013)

I think part of the problem is that homosexuality is one of the few sins where we don't seperate the person from the sin. For most people, we do not consider the sins that we commit to be intrinsic to our being. It is something we did...engaged in...and then put back down, not a part of our make up. Even heterosexual fornicators are considered to be engaging in a sin rather than "being" that sin.

So for many, when they see a homosexual they see someone who has "absorbed" a sin...it's them and they're it...no seperating the two. The only other things that I can think of to compare this to is pedophilia or beastiatlity.  

I understand the Catholic doctrine concerning this. A disorder. But when that "disorder" can ONLY lead to sin...? I'm thinking as I type so it might be hard to follow. I have definately spoken to folks and acknowledged that God heals/delivers us as he sees fit. Meaning, I do think there are some sins that we will no longer struggle with and others we will have to battle all of our lives. I believe Paul was talking about this when he described the thorn in his flesh that he asked God to remove but God DID NOT, but instead said, My Grace is sufficient.  Basically, Ima let you struggle with this so that you will rely more on my grace than your own efforts...this will keep you close to me as I perform in your life.

So that leads me to believe that a person who has same-sex attraction can be completely delivered with no more desire, AND that there can be a person who will have to be vigilant in casting down those desires. 

I cannot agree that the desire/attraction is not a sin, simply a disorder (and by disorder I have assumed that you meant not a sin). The same way I would say the desire to have sex with children or animals is a sin. The fact that it is a disorder (and I think of this as some characteristic that a person has through no design of their own) doesn't make it less of a sin. But this doesn't mean that a person cannot be saved. Im not sure if I was clear or not lol but I'm trying to wade through some thoughts.

Overall I really dislike that what the Pope said will be used by pro-gay folks to encourage gay lifestyles.


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## Galadriel (Jul 31, 2013)

CoilyFields said:


> I think part of the problem is that homosexuality is one of the few sins where we don't seperate the person from the sin. For most people, we do not consider the sins that we commit to be intrinsic to our being. It is something we did...engaged in...and then put back down, not a part of our make up. Even heterosexual fornicators are considered to be engaging in a sin rather than "being" that sin.
> 
> So for many, when they see a homosexual they see someone who has "absorbed" a sin...it's them and they're it...no seperating the two. The only other things that I can think of to compare this to is pedophilia or beastiatlity.
> 
> ...



CoilyFields, I think you stated your point well and brought up some interesting insights.

A heterosexual's opposite sex attraction inclines her to be attracted to men. And this is rightly ordered. Now, keep in mind that an inclination is not the same thing as lust or lustful thoughts. While her inclination is rightly ordered, if she were to fornicate, lust after someone, commit adultery, etc. she would sin. A homosexual's SSA is not rightly ordered, but it is the person's choice whether to engage in lust, sexual acts, or a "gay lifestyle," which would be sin. I think that's the distinction I'm trying to make.

I think it was interesting that you brought up how homosexuals as persons and homosexual attraction have been intertwined and not separated, do you think it's because many who advocate homosexual lifestyles have made it this way? They have created their sexual preference/attraction as a complete identity (even to the point of getting it recognized as equivalent to race or gender).

But for those who experience SSA and do not advocate homosexual lifestyles and actually agree with Biblical morality, while they suffer an internal distortion of true and proper sexuality, I agree with you that through Christ's grace they can overcome it and be saved.


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## MrsHaseeb (Jul 31, 2013)

CoilyFields you brought out some great points. I believe the desire/attraction for the same sex is sin and it needs to be dealt with in a real way; prayer, deliverance, determination to stay away from those things. See, church is a dangerous place for homosexuals who want to be free many times. Why? Because homosexuals are everywhere in churches hiding behind religion and never coming out of the sin. Its spiritual and unless they cut covenant with it altogether and get away from that spirit they will remain bound to same sex desires. I really believe this is why there isn't real deliverance in churches. A "Christian" with "homosexual orientation" is an oxymoron. Everything about homosexuality is against the nature of Jesus Christ. You're either a saint or a sinner, there is no in between. If you're born again, its impossible to be a homosexual. Yes the enemy is going to tempt them and they will have to fight like a mad dog for their salvation but there should be a change in desire that took place when they got born again. No saint loves sin and desires it. Heterosexual sex is natural, its a sin when done outside of the parameters set by God. Homosexuality/pedophilia/beastiality are warped and perverted in nature no matter what and I believe that's one reason its not separated from the person. Marriage will not make homosexual sex OK with God. I've read this before, people into Satanism and witchcraft use anal sex to infest a person with demons. There is actually research out there stating this. All sexual sin is sinning against your own body but anal sex is especially dangerous. Homosexuals (men especially) can't afford to be falling back into that because they are bound by homosexual desires. They need deliverance. Falling into sexual sin is dangerous because you join your soul to that person and what's in them is transferred to you. That's a huge deal. That's why Paul constantly reminded the saints to stay away from fornication.


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## sweetvi (Jul 31, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> @CoilyFields, I think you stated your point well and brought up some interesting insights.
> 
> A heterosexual's opposite sex attraction inclines her to be attracted to men. And this is rightly ordered. Now, keep in mind that an inclination is not the same thing as lust or lustful thoughts. While her inclination is rightly ordered, if she were to fornicate, lust after someone, commit adultery, etc. she would sin. A homosexual's SSA is not rightly ordered, but it is the person's choice whether to engage in lust, sexual acts, or a "gay lifestyle," which would be sin. I think that's the distinction I'm trying to make.
> 
> ...


 

^^^^^^THIS


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## JaneBond007 (Jul 31, 2013)

CoilyFields said:


> ...homosexuality is one of the few sins where we don't separate the person from the sin. For most people, we do not consider the sins that we commit to be intrinsic to our being. It is something we did...engaged in...and then put back down, not a part of our make up. ...
> *[AGREED!!]*
> 
> ...*
> ...




Let's say that Paul was homosexual and that the thorn in his side was not miraculously removed...???  The desires are there. Paul's not saved cuz the desires aren't miraculously removed?    But the doctrine actually is that it is an intrinsically disordered condition and something they either do not choose or have no ability to change/help.  The difference is that sin requires action.  There could be the sin of the mind as well, lusting.  But unless one pulls out the gun at the bank, it's not a robbery yet and it could be a passing thought.  The orientation doesn't mean it will lead to sin, it's likely that, according to human nature,  the person will sin and consummate his desires.  And as far as desires, according to Paul, they aren't cast down but still there because it's intrinsically ingrained...birth & genetics (brain and psychology) or tragic circumstances like abuse or whichever was the switch and in any combination.  

Our position is not to cast the finger and call the person who is gay a sinner.  And isn't all sin intrinsic, though?  All people born of man are sinners.   Pope Francis is reminding us that we must not harm anyone and marginalize them, loving them and accepting them as they are.  Don't people say that you don't have to "clean up" first to find Jesus?  I think so.  Falling into the acts of sin (consummation) have a remedy and that is repentance and reconciliation and one can return to the sacraments as they are under sanctifying grace. 

It's like this...you have this orientation and you see someone of the same sex who attracts you...the tinge has been felt already.  That's not the sin.  If you lust after that person and at some point, take that person to bed, that's the sin.  That's all we are saying because human dignity is so very important to Christ and He mandates that we likewise respect it.  It's not always been this way in the church but at least, through the H-ly Spirit, we continually come into more of His truth.  

Lastly, and this is my opinion, I believe that beastiality, masturbation and  homosexual or heterosexual sodomy fall under grave sins because they don't follow the natural order created to bring in new life - not because they are "nasty."  Obviously, when people rape or leave a girl pregnant and unmarried without care, it's an assault on their human dignity.  Perhaps the intrinsic disorder is intrinsically disordered because it will never bring in new life naturally?


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## MrsHaseeb (Jul 31, 2013)

JaneBond007 said:


> Lastly, and this is my opinion, I believe that beastiality, masturbation and  homosexual or heterosexual sodomy fall under grave sins because they don't follow the natural order created to bring in new life - not because they are "nasty."  Obviously, when people rape or leave a girl pregnant and unmarried without care, it's an assault on their human dignity.  Perhaps the intrinsic disorder is intrinsically disordered because it will never bring in new life naturally?



Huh??? So having unnatural sex with body parts that excrete wastes are only nasty because they don't bring life? Are you kidding? Some man being bent over and sodomized like a dog in a place that excretes fecal matter isn't nasty?! Its only wrong because it doesn't bring new life? That's insane. Do you know the anus has no filter like the vagina so whatever enters that hole goes directly to your blood stream? Semen getting into a mans blood stream makes their immune system out of wack. Romans 1 says they receive in their body the penalty for their error which was meet. That's God's sovereign judgement for the error of unnatural sex. There are also studies that tell us that most homosexual men usually only live out half their life. I have my.own person beliefs as to why the penalty is so much more sever for men, but that's neither here nor there. How warped have we become when something God calls detestable isn't detestable to professing Christians. I really apologize for being graphic but the truth is the truth.


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## MrsHaseeb (Jul 31, 2013)

JaneBond007 said:


> Let's say that Paul was homosexual and that the thorn in his side was not miraculously removed...???  The desires are there. Paul's not saved cuz the desires aren't miraculously removed?    But the doctrine actually is that it is an intrinsically disordered condition and something they either do not choose or have no ability to change/help.  The difference is that sin requires action.  There could be the sin of the mind as well, lusting.  But unless one pulls out the gun at the bank, it's not a robbery yet and it could be a passing thought.  The orientation doesn't mean it will lead to sin, it's likely that, according to human nature,  the person will sin and consummate his desires.  And as far as desires, according to Paul, they aren't cast down but still there because it's intrinsically ingrained...birth & genetics (brain and psychology) or tragic circumstances like abuse or whichever was the switch and in any combination.
> 
> Our position is not to cast the finger and call the person who is gay a sinner.  And isn't all sin intrinsic, though?  All people born of man are sinners.   Pope Francis is reminding us that we must not harm anyone and marginalize them, loving them and accepting them as they are.  Don't people say that you don't have to "clean up" first to find Jesus?  I think so.  Falling into the acts of sin (consummation) have a remedy and that is repentance and reconciliation and one can return to the sacraments as they are under sanctifying grace.
> 
> ...



Paul's thorn in the side was persecution, a messenger of Satan to buffet him to keep him humble. How dare anybody even imply something like that! The world has been trying to make Paul a sodomite for years now the "Christians" come up with this stuff too. I've heard it all... I'm not accepting a homosexual as they are and neither is God. Sacraments don't sanctify anybody! Somebody who wants sanctification better separate themselves from sin and get to Jesus Christ through prayer, fasting, reading/listening to/mediation in the word and being around like minded people. This is why churches are still full of homosexuals. They are getting a false Gospel fed to them and they never change. The result? They learn to be hypocrites and act like Christian but never become one. They end up coming out years later never delivered and we end up hearing about all kinds of sexual filth they've done and people they've sodomized. Lord help the homosexuals. Both the world and the so called church is working against their salvation.


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## JaneBond007 (Jul 31, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> Huh??? So having unnatural sex with body parts that excrete wastes are only nasty because they don't bring life? Are you kidding? Some man being bent over and sodomized like a dog in a place that excretes fecal matter isn't nasty?! Its only wrong because it doesn't bring new life? That's insane. Do you know the anus has no filter like the vagina so whatever enters that hole goes directly to your blood stream? Semen getting into a mans blood stream makes their immune system out of wack. Romans 1 says they receive in their body the penalty for their error which was meet. That's God's sovereign judgement for the error of unnatural sex. There are also studies that tell us that most homosexual men usually only live out half their life. I have my.own person beliefs as to why the penalty is so much more sever for men, but that's neither here nor there. How warped have we become when something God calls detestable isn't detestable to professing Christians. I really apologize for being graphic but the truth is the truth.



And unchaste women get HPV, heterosexual couples get throat cancer for fellatio...and the list goes on and on. Shrugs.  There's something for everybody.  

What I'm getting at is that sex is sex...but that there's an ordained way that is holy.  G-d may not see "nasty" as we do.  He may not go "ewww" either.  To cross the line towards sin might be a billionth of a hair's width.  And the level of destestableness (is that a word?? lol) might not be contained in those graphics...but in the very simple fact that new life was not promoted in the act.  Afterall, G-d gave a command to the world to  "be fertile and increase" Gen. 1:28  and to go against His will for the earth carries grave consequences.  Why does G-d want a world filled with people?  To give Him company?  He doesn't need us...but we need Him and perhaps He wants to show us His unending mercy?  I dunno  cuz He's complex beyond any of our understanding.  

Maybe we are too involved in the "ewww" factor and looking at the wrong direction for why G-d calls it detestable?  Of course, I'm partly focusing on the level of disgust that people have towards gays.  It's truly no different from racists looking down at minorities in church.  Yet, because of the nature of the sin, the plank despises the splinter.


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## JaneBond007 (Jul 31, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> Paul's thorn in the side was persecution, a messenger of Satan to buffet him to keep him humble. How dare anybody even imply something like that! .




It was used exemplify the point and none of us know what it was, at all.  What if her were?  Why dare?  If Jesus ate with prostitutes, I'm sure there were also some gays in the bunch.  Afterall, look at the Roman culture of that time.  But that is the "ewww" factor right there.  I guess I dared.


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## Galadriel (Aug 1, 2013)

JaneBond007 said:


> Afterall, look at the Roman culture of that time.  But that is the "ewww" factor right there.  I guess I dared.



PLEASE don't get us started on the Romans . They had some horrible, crazy stuff going on.


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## MrsHaseeb (Aug 1, 2013)

JaneBond007 said:


> It was used exemplify the point and none of us know what it was, at all.  What if her were?  Why dare?  If Jesus ate with prostitutes, I'm sure there were also some gays in the bunch.  Afterall, look at the Roman culture of that time.  But that is the "ewww" factor right there.  I guess I dared.



2 Corinthians 12:7-9 KJV
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. [8] For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. [9] And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.


The Word of God states very plainly what the thorn was. Only a warped and perverted mind would try to make Paul into a homosexual. Seriously... Yes, Jesus ate with prostitutes. One things certain, if they really wanted to remain in fellowship with Jesus they certainly didn't stay that way. I'm beginning to see a pattern.. most people who call themselves Christians are not Christians at all. They've gone to a church and learned a bunch of filthy religion and never been regenerated on the inside. So what happens? They are the same person inside while wrapped in a bunch of religious jargon and false spirituality on the outside. "Christianity" has been overtaken by another jesus and another gospel. This false Christianity is exactly why the world blasphemes Christ. Christianity has become a bunch of unregenerate sinners play acting like Christians, lowering the standard of Jesus Christ to accommodate their own ungodliness. Apostasy at its best... You have a great night.


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## LucieLoo12 (Aug 1, 2013)

There reason why there is alot of confusion and disagreement concerning this topic is because people go off of philosophy and man's wisdom to understand or justify it. We have to let the word be the word.


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## CoilyFields (Aug 1, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> @CoilyFields, I think you stated your point well and brought up some interesting insights.
> 
> A heterosexual's opposite sex attraction inclines her to be attracted to men. And this is rightly ordered. Now, keep in mind that *an inclination is not the same thing as lust or lustful thoughts*. While her inclination is rightly ordered, if she were to fornicate, lust after someone, commit adultery, etc. she would sin. A homosexual's SSA is not rightly ordered, but it is the person's choice whether to engage in lust, sexual acts, or a "gay lifestyle," which would be sin. I think that's the distinction I'm trying to make.
> 
> ...


 
Galadriel

To the first bolded: That is where the hair is split. You have noted three things, inclination, lust, and action. The inclination is disordered but not a sin in and of itself? I'm going to be honest and say Im not sure if I can agree with that categorization (though Im trying to sort it out Biblically rather than the knee-jerk reaction of how "the world" could take that and run with it). So if a homosexual man enters into an emotional love affair with another man...isn't that sin? or just disordered? Or would you say that as long as he doesnt lust or fornicate (and lets pretend that could happen) then its ok? Im more leaning towards the entire inclination being a sin...the same way I would think a pathological liars inclination to lie is wrong.  I guess I consider any "natural" inclination that goes against God's perfect law and order to be sin. Hmmm...I'm liking this discussion because it is challenging me to really dissect this topic.

Second bolded: Yes, I do. I think they borrowed from civil rights movement the idea of "acceptance based on an unchangeable attribute" and to do so had to decided and emphasize the idea that homosexuality was not a choice, they were created that way. So they absorbed it as their identity. And I also believe that we tend to have a hierarchy of sins and the ones that threaten our security/status quo or we find to be far from our own sinful inclinations...we ostracize and marginalize. I have seen at churches where people will have no problem interacting with the couple that lives together but is not married, but the guy that is homosexual, "flaming" or not, has a reserved place in hell. Part of this I think is also a result of the sin being intertwined with the identity and church folks not knowing how to handle that.


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## CoilyFields (Aug 1, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> CoilyFields you brought out some great points. I believe the desire/attraction for the same sex is sin and it needs to be dealt with in a real way; prayer, deliverance, determination to stay away from those things. See, church is a dangerous place for homosexuals who want to be free many times. Why? Because homosexuals are everywhere in churches hiding behind religion and never coming out of the sin. Its spiritual and unless they cut covenant with it altogether and get away from that spirit they will remain bound to same sex desires. I really believe this is why there isn't real deliverance in churches. A "Christian" with "homosexual orientation" is an oxymoron. Everything about homosexuality is against the nature of Jesus Christ. You're either a saint or a sinner, there is no in between. If you're born again, its impossible to be a homosexual. Yes the enemy is going to tempt them and they will have to fight like a mad dog for their salvation but *there should be a change in desire that took place when they got born again.* No saint loves sin and desires it. Heterosexual sex is natural, its a sin when done outside of the parameters set by God. Homosexuality/pedophilia/beastiality are warped and perverted in nature no matter what and I believe that's one reason its not separated from the person. Marriage will not make homosexual sex OK with God. I've read this before, people into Satanism and witchcraft use anal sex to infest a person with demons. There is actually research out there stating this. All sexual sin is sinning against your own body but anal sex is especially dangerous. Homosexuals (men especially) can't afford to be falling back into that because they are bound by homosexual desires. They need deliverance. Falling into sexual sin is dangerous because you join your soul to that person and what's in them is transferred to you. That's a huge deal. That's why Paul constantly reminded the saints to stay away from fornication.


 
MrsHaseeb,
Thanks. The bolded made me think of the scripture about old things passing away and all things becoming new. And just for clarification, in the bolded do you mean that the change in desire is that they will no longer have the physical desire for the same sex or that they will no longer desire to have that desire?


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## CoilyFields (Aug 1, 2013)

JaneBond007 said:


> Let's say that Paul was homosexual and that the thorn in his side was not miraculously removed...??? The desires are there. *Paul's not saved cuz the desires aren't miraculously removed?* But the doctrine actually is that it is an *intrinsically disordered condition and something they either do not choose or have no ability to change/help.* The difference is that sin requires action. There could be the sin of the mind as well, lusting. But unless one pulls out the gun at the bank, it's not a robbery yet and it could be a passing thought. The orientation doesn't mean it will lead to sin, it's likely that, according to human nature, the person will sin and consummate his desires. And as far as desires, according to Paul, they aren't cast down but still there because it's intrinsically ingrained...birth & genetics (brain and psychology) or tragic circumstances like abuse or whichever was the switch and in any combination.
> 
> Our position is not to cast the finger and call the person who is gay a sinner. And isn't all sin intrinsic, though? All people born of man are sinners. Pope Francis is reminding us that *we must not harm anyone and marginalize them, loving them and accepting them as they are. Don't people say that you don't have to "clean up" first to find Jesus?* I think so. Falling into the acts of sin (consummation) have a remedy and that is repentance and reconciliation and one can return to the sacraments as they are under sanctifying grace.
> 
> ...


 
JaneBond007

First Bolded: I don't believe that a true believer can lose their salvation. I believe that the only requirement for salvation is confession and belief. Sanctification come afterwards through our surrender and the work of the Holy Spirit. So no, even if a person remains homosexual for the rest of their lives that does not negate their salvation. (I know this is a hot topic in CF so I wont derail the thread with any more explanation).

Second Bolded: See this is where we differ. I believe that all sin is intrinsic. Even the DESIRE to sin is sin...this is why good works won't get us into heaven. No matter how "perfect" of a life we live...never doing the "actions" of sin...the very fact that our flesh desires to do wrong seperates us from God. Because he is perfect in every way...no wrong desires...so anything less than that is caused by our sinful nature...the desire to sin. Hence the reason we needed a perfect sacrifice who never sinned in mind or body...thats why Jesus could not have been born of a man...he would have inherited a sinful nature...the desire to sin. So a homosexual possibly being born that way in no way negates the fact that it is a sinful desire because all of us are born with a sinful nature...which include particular things that we are inclined to do.

Third bolded: I totally agree. I believe that we should love and accept people in the body of Christ with open arms and no one should be treated unfairly based on their sins. Many of us fall short in this area. But I also must say that most folks want CHristians to say that homosexuality is ok and believe that when you say its wrong that you are rejecting the whole person rather than the sin.


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## CoilyFields (Aug 1, 2013)

LucieLoo12 said:


> There reason why there is alot of confusion and disagreement concerning this topic is because people go off of philosophy and man's wisdom to understand or justify it. We have to let the word be the word.


 
And unfortunately this is a topic that is rarely expounded on in churches. People aren't taught what the word says...and what it doesn't say. And unfortunately many don't look for themselves either. 

Iron sharpens iron and I would hope that everyone reading this would be strengthened in their Christian walk, weather its forcing you to rethink some things or enforcing what you already believe.


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## Galadriel (Aug 1, 2013)

CoilyFields said:


> @Galadriel
> To the first bolded: That is where the hair is split. You have noted three things, inclination, lust, and action. The inclination is disordered but not a sin in and of itself?



Yes, because an inclination would be a predisposition or proclivity. 

*A sin is a thought, (spoken) word, or behavior/action that violates God's moral law.*
An inclination is not a behavior or action, an inclination is not a spoken word, and an inclination is not a thought.

That's why I noted the difference between inclination and lust because lust would be *immoral sexual thoughts* that a person indulges in.

Because we live in a broken or fallen world, we have inclinations or proclivities which can be disordered. *I believe any disordered inclinations can be conquered through grace, through the process of sanctification* . When I talk about Christians with SSA who submit themselves to Christ and live chaste lives, I think some people have misinterpreted this as me saying, "Oh, they just have to live with their problem and that's it." I am not advocating that--I am advocating that they can be made free in Christ and live a grace-filled life.

Human sexuality involves our minds, bodies, and spirits. So I think when a Christian wants to address SSA, he's not only looking at physical attraction issues, but there are some emotional and psychological components that need to be addressed. Up until the 1970s, the American Psychological Association used to list homosexuality as a form of deviancy or sexual abnormality. I think it was a mistake to take it off the books and start telling homosexuals that their inclinations were normal or good. IMHO they should receive both spiritual and psychological help. I think we've discussed before how some w/ SSA were victims of abuse, or had certain abandonment or bonding issues with a parent, etc. So simply saying, "You've got a demon in you and you need deliverance," is not going to cut it.

I remember at my conservative Evangelical Christian college, how students who suffered from depression or even mental illness were treated. "What? You can't be depressed--that means you don't have faith. Just pray."

I believe in faith, in prayer, in the healing work of God and in miracles, but I have seen some depressed Christians crash and burn because instead of receiving dual spiritual and psychological help--they were just told they were bad Christians and didn't have enough faith. Or think about those people whose children died because they refused to take the kids to a doctor or hospital and did the prayer healing--did God fail them? Ignore them? God is very willing to aid us and touch us with His healing hand, whether it be spiritual or otherwise, but we can't lay around and do nothing on our part.

I hope I'm getting my point across without sounding confusing or crazy (please let me know).

 I guess what I'm trying to say, is that *we must cooperate with the grace God is freely offering us*.



CoilyFields said:


> I'm going to be honest and say Im not sure if I can agree with that categorization (though Im trying to sort it out Biblically rather than the knee-jerk reaction of how "the world" could take that and run with it). So if a homosexual man enters into an emotional love affair with another man...isn't that sin? or just disordered? Or would you say that as long as he doesnt lust or fornicate (and lets pretend that could happen) then its ok?



I'm not sure what constitutes an "emotional love affair," but if it includes sexual thoughts or overtures, then that would be sinful.



CoilyFields said:


> Hmmm...I'm liking this discussion because it is challenging me to really dissect this topic.



Good! Join the club 



CoilyFields said:


> And I also believe that we tend to have a hierarchy of sins and the ones that threaten our security/status quo or we find to be far from our own sinful inclinations...we ostracize and marginalize. I have seen at churches where people will have no problem interacting with the couple that lives together but is not married, but the guy that is homosexual, "flaming" or not, has a reserved place in hell. Part of this I think is also a result of the sin being intertwined with the identity and church folks not knowing how to handle that.



Agreed.


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## Galadriel (Aug 1, 2013)

CoilyFields said:


> @JaneBond007
> See this is where we differ. I believe that all sin is intrinsic. Even the DESIRE to sin is sin...



Are you Calvinist?


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## LucieLoo12 (Aug 1, 2013)

CoilyFields said:


> @MrsHaseeb,
> Thanks. The bolded made me think of the scripture about old things passing away and all things becoming new. And just for clarification, in the bolded do you mean that the change in desire is that they will no longer have the physical desire for the same sex or that they will no longer desire to have that desire?


 
*I know this isn't directed towards me, but I believe it will be both. The bible says that we are transformed by the renewing of our mind. For any change to began in our life our mind must be changed first.In the bible mind and heart means the same alot of times. Your body/feelings only respond to what is in your heart. if you dont like apples, it dont matter how apples are presented to you or dressed up, you wont eat it because it's nothing you like. When I was in the world, I was a heavy drinker, would crave alcohol. But since Ive been born again, not only do I hate it, but my body no longer craves it either. Anything you don't feed will die out. If you dont feed your dog, it will eventually die. It's the same way with desires or lusts, if you dont feed it, it will die. But as we are letting it die out, we are replacing with the word of God, so that new seed can begin to grow. This is what pushes out sin. The bible says the cares of the world and sin chokes out the word of God. Well i believe it works both ways. The word of God chokes out sin. But not just reading the word, but applying to out lives. The doers of the word are justified, not just the hearers. People sometimes think that the word "doesnt work" but thats because they are just hearing it but not doing it. Jesus said His word is spirit and life. When we grab ahold of the word, we will receive life*


*CoilyFields*


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## LucieLoo12 (Aug 1, 2013)

CoilyFields said:


> Second Bolded: See this is where we differ. I believe that all sin is intrinsic. Even the DESIRE to sin is sin....


 

*Girl you are preaching right here* . Like we say when someone preaching "girl you gone make me slap you" 

This This This.

Jesus told his disciples "If you even look upon a woman to sin, you have already commited adultery in your heart." Even though the he didnt even touch the woman, he would be judged for it. It's all about the heart and that's what people are missing. He also said if you hate your brother, you are a murder. That's why God told us he would give us a new heart.The new convenant said he will write his laws on our HEARTS. God wants our hearts pure.


matthew 15:19

*For out of the heart proceed* evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:


what is in your heart will come out


CoilyFields


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## Galadriel (Aug 1, 2013)

LucieLoo12 said:


> *Girl you are preaching right here* . Like we say when someone preaching "girl you gone make me slap you"
> 
> This This This.
> 
> ...



But what you just described was lustful thoughts. To "look upon someone with lust" is to indulge in sexually immoral thoughts regarding that other person (or projecting such thoughts upon that person).

No one here is arguing that sexual immorality has nothing to do with our minds or internal thoughts (heart). In fact, I've been arguing this whole time that Christians (both with SSA and heterosexual) should be submitting to Christ and live in chastity according to their station in life.

As a married woman, I am to be chaste according to my married vocation.

A single woman should be chaste according to hers.

Same goes for the guys too.

Everyone should be chaste and pure .


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## LucieLoo12 (Aug 1, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> But what you just described was lustful thoughts. To "look upon someone with lust" is to indulge in sexually immoral thoughts regarding that other person (or projecting such thoughts upon that person).
> 
> No one here is arguing that sexual immorality has nothing to do with our minds or internal thoughts (heart). In fact, I've been arguing this whole time that Christians (both with SSA and heterosexual) should be submitting to Christ and live in chastity according to their station in life.
> 
> ...


 


The word lust is not just meaning something sexual. It can be a passion or strong desire for anything.

I gave the example of what Jesus said to show that God does look at what's in our heart, even if the act hasnt been committed yet. That we shouldnt be content with not doing the act, but making sure the act is not even in our heart.


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## Galadriel (Aug 1, 2013)

LucieLoo12 said:


> The word lust is not just meaning something sexual. It can be a passion or strong desire for anything.



But the quote you were referring to was speaking of sexual lust (which was why Christ said a man looking upon a woman with lust has committed adultery. Adultery is a sexual sin.)



LucieLoo12 said:


> I gave the example of what Jesus said to show that God does look at what's in our heart, even if the act hasnt been committed yet. That we shouldnt be content with not doing the act, but making sure the act is not even in our heart.



I agree we should have pure thoughts and pure minds, which is why I would also categorize things like pornography as immoral and sinful. We need to have custody of the eyes, as well as custody of the heart.


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## JaneBond007 (Aug 1, 2013)

Well, one thing is certain, the Pope surely is catholic and he was speaking to the millions of catholics out there.  As for others that disagree with catholic doctrine and his statements, that's all good and fine.  It just seems pointless for one to offer non-catholic explanation of what the Vicar of Christ in the body of the RCC is saying to...those in the body of the RCC and that is what some of the media has tried to do.  The catholic stance and teachings via the Magisterium, in the long tradition from Judaism, is always going to be.  Through careful study and council, you arrive at the decision or truth with the guidance of the H-ly Spirit.


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## LucieLoo12 (Aug 1, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> But the quote you were referring to was speaking of sexual lust (which was why Christ said a man looking upon a woman with lust has committed adultery. Adultery is a sexual sin.)
> 
> 
> I agree we should have pure thoughts and pure minds, which is why I would also categorize things like pornography as immoral and sinful. We need to have custody of the eyes, as well as custody of the heart.


 

*Ok your missing my point . All I am saying is God looks at the heart. Sin is sin to God. Whether its adultery, lying, lust, stealing. No difference to Him*




*Very true. David said he set no evil thing before his eyes *


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## Galadriel (Aug 1, 2013)

LucieLoo12 said:


> *Ok your missing my point . All I am saying is God looks at the heart. Sin is sin to God. Whether its adultery, lying, lust, stealing. No difference to Him*


 
 I think we might be working with slight different definitions or certain understandings of things, but I do agree that a person's immoral actions originate in his heart, and that internally we need to submit to Christ and be cleansed (sanctification).


*


LucieLoo12 said:



			Very true. David said he set no evil thing before his eyes 

Click to expand...

*
Indeed, and how hard is it to do that in our culture today? So many people will engage in this stuff as easy as drinking a glass of water. Too many are desensitized to impurity and scoff at any attempt to guard one's eyes and heart.


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## LucieLoo12 (Aug 1, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> *
> 
> Indeed, and how hard is it to do that in our culture today? So many people will engage in this stuff as easy as drinking a glass of water. Too many are desensitized to impurity and scoff at any attempt to guard one's eyes and heart.*


*


Yep this is very true. But thats because people are not taught santification.*


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## CoilyFields (Aug 1, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> Are you Calvinist?


 
Nope. I'm a Christian. 
Thats what I usually tell people who ask about my denomination etc. Don't mind me...I'm being Facetious.

Though I do agree with some Calvinist ideas I prefer not to operate under the heading of a particular school of thought. I'd have to make up a new one and I think we have enough denominations lol.


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## CoilyFields (Aug 1, 2013)

I am in full agreement with you ladies about guarding your heart/mind, eyes, and ears! Its hard out here for a saint!

I think the biggest difference between what Galadriel & JaneBond007 and I am saying is that in Catholicism, the predisposition/inclination toward a specific activity that is wrong is only wrong if one engages in the actual activity/sin. (Are their any other things categorized as disorders besides sexual sins in Catholicism?).

My belief is that the predisposition to do any sin is a sign of our fallen and sinful nature...hence the desire in itself is a sin as well as carrying it out.


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## MrsHaseeb (Aug 1, 2013)

CoilyFields said:


> MrsHaseeb,
> Thanks. The bolded made me think of the scripture about old things passing away and all things becoming new. And just for clarification, in the bolded do you mean that the change in desire is that they will no longer have the physical desire for the same sex or that they will no longer desire to have that desire?



Hi Coily. I meant that while the enemy may tempt them with that sin, their desire will begin to transform and they will hate what God hates. They will desire to do that which pleases Jesus Christ. They will not desire to participate in what God has delivered them from though the enemy will present them with temptation to. For example, I heard about a man who had been delivered from homosexuality and he didn't desire to participate in homosexual activity. So he had to separate himself from friends, TV, almost everything in the world that he could to guard himself from the temptation. He wanted to obey God. I do believe God transforms the desire if they get really born again. They must then choose to resist the temptation of the enemy. Hope that made it clear.


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## Galadriel (Aug 1, 2013)

CoilyFields said:


> Nope. I'm a Christian.
> Thats what I usually tell people who ask about my denomination etc. Don't mind me...I'm being Facetious.
> 
> Though I do agree with some Calvinist ideas I prefer not to operate under the heading of a particular school of thought. I'd have to make up a new one and I think we have enough denominations lol.



My two best friends in college were non-denominational, and we're still friends today. I used to joke with them all the time about non-denominational being a denomination.


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## Galadriel (Aug 1, 2013)

CoilyFields said:


> I am in full agreement with you ladies about guarding your heart/mind, eyes, and ears! Its hard out here for a saint!
> 
> I think the biggest difference between what @Galadriel & @JaneBond007 and I am saying is that in Catholicism, the predisposition/inclination toward a specific activity that is wrong is only wrong if one engages in the actual activity/sin. (Are their any other things categorized as disorders besides sexual sins in Catholicism?).



Found a great post entry by a person who suffers bipolar disorder who touches upon how suffering from a psychological disorder has parallel struggles to suffering from the disorder of SSA:

------

Bipolar Disorder is, obviously to most people, a disorder. Same-sex  attraction is, according to the Church, “objectively disordered.” The  Courage apostolate has a *good explanation* of what objective disorder is and why people should not identify as “gay” or “lesbian.”_*The term “objective disorder” is a  philosophical term. It is used to describe homosexual attractions  because such attractions can never lead to a morally good sexual act. It  is objected that if a man lusts for a woman or vice versa, this too is  an objective disorder. This latter example is not an objective disorder,  because, if the man or woman learns to control their heterosexual  attraction, and wills to express it in the natural state of marriage, it  is a good thing.* _​In a nutshell, attraction to someone of the opposite sex is a natural  thing that God puts into people for obvious reasons. Because of the  Fall, people aren’t always born perfectly healthy. Anything about you  (anything) can be “broken.” A baby born with a cleft palate is not less a  person than any other baby. Thankfully, God has given the vast majority  of us a natural desire to see such a child’s mouth repaired. Someone  who has a desire to leave such a child in a mutilated condition, or to  have their child’s mouth mutilated through surgery, has a desire that is  “objectively disordered.” It is “objectively disordered” because it is  neither natural to have such a desire, nor is it in keeping with God’s  will for us. 

So it is with same-sex attraction and also with suicidal  ideation that people with Bipolar Disorder experience. Unfortunately,  also because of human nature, if it became more popular for children to  have a mutilated mouth, more and more people would begin to agree that  it is bad to treat a child with cleft palate. They might even say it is  “hateful” to say cleft palate is a “disorder” that should be treated.  Thankfully, we are not in such a world with cleft palate, but we are in  such a world with same-sex attraction, where it is considered “hateful”  to say that same-sex attraction is objectively disordered. “I was born  this way” is supposed to be enough to advance that argument, but  children with cleft palate were also “born that way.”

 Like people with same-sex attraction, people with Bipolar Disorder  frequently deal with a disordered desire — suicidal ideation. 

It is not  natural, nor is it in keeping with God’s will, for someone to want to  end his own life. The desire to end one’s own life is objectively  disordered. It is also not natural, nor is it in keeping with God’s  will, for someone to want to have sexual relations with someone of the  same gender. Suicidal ideation and same-sex attraction are both  objectively disordered.

 I promise you, when I write about same-sex attraction, I am thinking  of myself because I have Bipolar Disorder and suicidal ideation, so  there is no “bigotry” involved in my discussion of this issue. The  reason that I think it is important that I speak on this issue is  because I have real-life experience with avoiding disorder and seeking  God’s will instead of what my brain is telling me to do.

 Desires that are disordered will lead us away from God. If I, as  someone with Bipolar Disorder, want to kill myself, I am not thinking in  accordance with God’s will for me. I cannot really help having suicidal  ideation. It comes as the result of a physical condition that science  still, thankfully, classifies as a “disorder.” People with Bipolar  Disorder are at *high risk for suicide*. *One in five people*  with Bipolar Disorder commit suicide. I would guess that close to 100%  experience suicidal ideation (which is the equivalent of “same-sex  attraction” philosophically speaking.) 

Unfortunately, scientists no  longer classify same-sex attraction as “disorder.” God still does,  though, and He allows it to occur in people the same as He allows other  disorders to occur in people, like cleft palate, so that His glory might  be manifest in the world as people minister to them in their struggles,  helping them to be the saint God made them to be, and as they carry  their Cross in the world….just like people with Bipolar Disorder need  people to minister to them and help them to be the people God made them  to be...


http://www.catholicbandita.com/objective-disorder-and-the-cross/


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## CoilyFields (Aug 1, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> Found a great post entry by a person who suffers bipolar disorder who touches upon how suffering from a psychological disorder has parallel struggles to suffering from the disorder of SSA:
> 
> ------
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for the example!!!


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## CoilyFields (Aug 1, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> My two best friends in college were non-denominational, and we're still friends today. I used to joke with them all the time about non-denominational being a denomination.


 
You'll notice I didn't say non-denomination  because you're right, it is becoming its own denomination.


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## MrsHaseeb (Aug 1, 2013)

JaneBond007 said:


> And unchaste women get HPV, heterosexual couples get throat cancer for fellatio...and the list goes on and on. Shrugs.  There's something for everybody.
> 
> What I'm getting at is that sex is sex...but that there's an ordained way that is holy.  G-d may not see "nasty" as we do.  He may not go "ewww" either.  To cross the line towards sin might be a billionth of a hair's width.  And the level of destestableness (is that a word?? lol) might not be contained in those graphics...but in the very simple fact that new life was not promoted in the act.  Afterall, G-d gave a command to the world to  "be fertile and increase" Gen. 1:28  and to go against His will for the earth carries grave consequences.  Why does G-d want a world filled with people?  To give Him company?  He doesn't need us...but we need Him and perhaps He wants to show us His unending mercy?  I dunno  cuz He's complex beyond any of our understanding.
> 
> Maybe we are too involved in the "ewww" factor and looking at the wrong direction for why G-d calls it detestable?  Of course, I'm partly focusing on the level of disgust that people have towards gays.  It's truly no different from racists looking down at minorities in church.  Yet, because of the nature of the sin, the plank despises the splinter.



Hi, I just want to say this... Heterosexual sex within God's parameters will never produce sexually transmitted diseases and such like. All sexual sin has consequences. Homosexual sex will always have negative repurcussions no matter what whether itsvthe same sex or whether is opposite sex doing homosexual acts (I.e. anal and oral sex). OK, done


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## MSee (Aug 1, 2013)

It's sad when people use church doctrine, peoples stories, intelligent  sounding arguments and reasoning, etc. to refute or tear down scriptural  truth. Jesus had the same issue with religious leaders back in the day

Mark 7
6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
“‘These people honor me with their lips,
    but their hearts are far from me.
7 They worship me in vain;
*their teachings are merely human rules.’*

*8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”*
 9 And he continued,* “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!*


I  do not comprehend why anyone should be impressed by a doctrine or  teaching that cannot even be upheld by those who should be teaching it.  Did those priests who raped, sodomized and ripped the innocence from  children and young people, not know that they were to keep their  "disorder" to themselves and under control? Didn't they too give council to those with homosexual tendencies? Don't they know that they as  teachers will be judged more strictly?

James 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that* we who teach will be judged more strictly.*
Then  again the scripture does allude to the fact that following man made  rules and solutions doesn't restrain sensual indulgence. Deliverance  from anything contrary to the true order of God, comes not through man's  wisdom and teachings and intelligent sounding theories, it comes only  through the power of Jesus Christ. 

Colossians 2:23 *Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom*, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, *but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.*

Christ  alone went to the cross to be the savior and deliverer of those who  will receive Him in truth and on God's terms. God will not alter His  truth for any religious institution, no matter how appealing their  doctrine sounds. Anything that goes against God's order is sin, no  matter what else we try to call it and if we truly love others as God  instruct us to do we will point them to Christ for the deliverance from  sin or disorder or whatever other term we may want to use, whether it be  homosexuality or any other.

Sin begins in the mind. Jesus  pointed that out in the verses that others used in this thread and  Roman's 1 takes it even further by pointing out that when God's truth is  ignored, homosexual desires and tendencies tend to creep right in among  the people who should know God. Sadly, this is the fate of many  religious institutions today and instead of seeing it for what it is and  repenting and turning their followers back to God and His truth...we  have speeches like that of the Pope's.

Romans 1
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19*since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.* 20 For  since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal  power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from  what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For  although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave  thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts  were darkened. 22 *Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools** 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.*
*24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.*
26*Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.** 27 In  the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and  were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts  with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their  error.*
 28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

As I read this thread few other scriptures came to mind, and frankly they speak loud and clear and demands no explanation.

2 Timothy 4:1 I  charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall  judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3 *For  the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after  their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching  ears;*
*4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.*


1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and *follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.** 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.*



Thanks  MrsHaseeb and others for standing up for truth. These types of threads  have been coming up for years and it never ceases to amaze me how some  prefer to ignore or even try to refute scripture and seduce others to believe man made  doctrines and reasoning. But it happens and will till Jesus returns. May God help us all.


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## JaneBond007 (Aug 2, 2013)

The Pope said it, media and non-catholics misinterpreted it, catholics defend it, non-catholics don't like it....it was to the catholic church.  You don't have to like it.  Just be fair.  Disagreements are one thing, but to charge fellow believers with heresy is serious.  We don't see eye-to-eye on _HOW_ to perceive gay people and to love them as Christ commands.  That is absolutely no reason to say that catholics don't follow scriptural truth.  The bad side of some of the Pharisees?  Good L-rd.  Tis why I'll reiterate...it's pointless to try and correct catholic interpretation via protestant interpretation when one can just agree to disagree.  But mind you, if someone doesn't comprehend and asks for the explanation, please know, it's always going to be a catholic one when dealing with the Pope and the RCC. That is NOT seduction.  You don't like it, fine, just don't make a mistake and call it deceptive heresy.  SMH.


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## MrsHaseeb (Aug 2, 2013)

MSee said:


> It's sad when people use church doctrine, peoples stories, intelligent  sounding arguments and reasoning, etc. to refute or tear down scriptural  truth. Jesus had the same issue with religious leaders back in the day
> 
> Mark 7
> 6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
> ...



Sis....TELL.THE.TRUTH. You made it plain.


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## MSee (Aug 2, 2013)

JaneBond007 said:


> The Pope said it, media and non-catholics misinterpreted it, catholics defend it, non-catholics don't like it....it was to the catholic church.  You don't have to like it.  Just be fair.  Disagreements are one thing, but to charge fellow believers with heresy is serious.  We don't see eye-to-eye on _HOW_ to perceive gay people and to love them as Christ commands.  That is absolutely no reason to say that catholics don't follow scriptural truth.  The bad side of some of the Pharisees?  Good L-rd.  Tis why I'll reiterate...it's pointless to try and correct catholic interpretation via protestant interpretation when one can just agree to disagree.  But mind you, if someone doesn't comprehend and asks for the explanation, please know, it's always going to be a catholic one when dealing with the Pope and the RCC. That is NOT seduction.  You don't like it, fine, just don't make a mistake and call it deceptive heresy.  SMH.



Had to reread my post to see if I was the one you referred to, but since I charged no one with heresy I'll just keep moving. You were free to give your point of view based on what you believe, I assumed I had that freedom too. May God bless you.


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## menina (Aug 2, 2013)

While you didn't out right charge heresy, you definitely made some jabs...
I'm just sick of the 'i'm the real christian' delivery some have been posting in lately.
Where's the unity in Christ? :\


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## JaneBond007 (Aug 2, 2013)

> It's sad when people use church doctrine, peoples stories, intelligent sounding arguments and reasoning, etc. to refute or tear down scriptural truth. Jesus had the same issue with religious leaders back in the day
> 
> Thanks  @MrsHaseeb  and others for standing up for truth. These types of threads  have been  coming up for years and it never ceases to amaze me how some  prefer to  ignore or even try to refute scripture and seduce others to believe man  made  doctrines and reasoning. But it happens and will till Jesus  returns. May God help us all.



Heresy

 a : adherence to a religious opinion contrary to church dogma
b : denial of a revealed truth by a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church
c : an opinion or doctrine contrary to church dogma
2
a : dissent or deviation from a dominant theory, opinion, or practice
b : an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs or standards 

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Although, I do admire the semi-direct approach of insult...  It shows you have chutzpah albeit misdirected chutzpah.  People either don't get or are being obtuse because the point is this:  if you don't agree, then "well, I don't agree because doesn't the bible say XYZ?"  But what you said was below the belt.  And it's unnecessary because...IT WAS ABOUT THE POPE SPEAKING TO CATHOLICS ABOUT AN ISSUE CONCERNING OUR CATECHISM WHICH IS BASED UPON SCRIPTURE AND CHURCH COUNCIL and a "catholic" response was given because it was ASKED.    So is your bible...based upon church council.    There was a split, and voila', differences in interpretation.  We don't agree but you won't find me going around saying that, basically, people are being seductive and unscriptural if I ask protestants about a protestant issue, directed towards protestants and I receive a protestant response...nor offering disingenuous blessings.


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## CoilyFields (Aug 2, 2013)

menina said:


> While you didn't out right charge heresy, you definitely made some jabs...
> I'm just sick of the 'i'm the real christian' delivery some have been posting in lately.
> *Where's the unity in Christ?* :\


 
menina

One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism!

Let us never be accused as using the Bible as a battle axe...especially against others in the household of faith!


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## Galadriel (Aug 2, 2013)

menina said:


> While you didn't out right charge heresy, you definitely made some jabs...
> I'm just sick of the 'i'm the real christian' delivery some have been posting in lately.
> Where's the unity in Christ? :\



Agreed. Never thought I'd see the day that I'd be accused of being too soft or "tearing down Scriptural truth."


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## Galadriel (Aug 2, 2013)

I don't think you understood what I've been saying. It's fine to disagree or present arguments/counterpoints as I think @CoilyFields has done, but accusing another Christian of "tearing down Scriptural truth" is not only uncharitable, but is also bearing false witness.





MSee said:


> It's sad when people use church doctrine, peoples stories, intelligent  sounding arguments and reasoning, etc. to refute or tear down scriptural  truth. Jesus had the same issue with religious leaders back in the day
> 
> Mark 7
> 6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
> ...


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