# "i've Picked My Job Over My Kids"



## aribell

Op-Ed at the NY Times by a woman talking about her choice to prioritize her career over her children:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/29/opinion/sunday/ive-picked-my-job-over-my-kids.html



> *I’ve Picked My Job Over My Kids*
> I love them beyond all reason. But sometimes my clients need me more.
> 
> By Lara Bazelon
> 
> Ms. Bazelon is a law professor.
> 
> 
> June 29, 2019
> Image Credit: Golden Cosmos
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am a lawyer, a law professor and a writer. I am also a divorced mother of two young children. I’m often asked some version of: “How do you excel at work and be the best mother you can be?”
> 
> Every working mother gets this question, which presupposes that a “work-life balance” is achievable. It’s not. The term traps women in an endless cycle of shame and self-recrimination.
> 
> Like many women, I often prioritize my job. I do this because, as the head of a single-parent household, I’m the sole breadwinner. My ex-husband, who has joint custody, is an amazing father and my life would be impossible without him. Neither of us pays the other support.
> 
> My choice is more than a financial imperative. I prioritize my work because I’m ambitious and because I believe it’s important. If I didn’t write and teach and litigate, a part of me would feel empty.
> 
> At the time, my son was 4 and my daughter was 2. One month before the retrial started, I moved from San Francisco to a tiny apartment close to the courthouse in Los Angeles. I went long stretches without seeing my children. They were lovingly cared for by their father, their grandmother, my son’s preschool teacher and my daughter’s babysitter. When I would fly home, I was often not fully present. My client needed me more than my children did. So he got more of me. A lot more.
> 
> During these months, my son had a lot of questions. “Why are you gone so much?” “Why are you always on the phone talking about that guy with the funny name?” I explained what was at stake. The good guys are fighting the bad guys. If we lose, it means racism won and a man’s life was destroyed.
> 
> “Are you going to win?” he wanted to know.
> 
> “That’s my job,” I said.
> 
> I have missed meetings to take my kids to the park or a museum, and picked them up early to go to karate class. Recently, I turned down an offer to teach an extra class for a significant amount of money because I didn’t want to lose that time with them.
> 
> But there is always another client to defend, story to write or struggling student who just can’t wait. Here are things I have missed: my daughter’s seventh birthday, my son’s 10th birthday party, two family vacations, three Halloweens, every school camping trip. I have never chaperoned, coached or organized a school event.
> 
> Sometimes my choices make me sad. My daughter’s seventh birthday was the worst. She cried, and I did everything I could not to. I felt sick to my stomach. But I had a trial starting the next day, six hours away.
> 
> I had picked the date, not the judge, because I knew that the other side wasn’t ready. Delaying even a few days would have meant losing a crucial advantage. I wasn’t going to risk it knowing what was on the line for my client.
> 
> Of course, I sometimes feel doubt, shame and fear. I know I’m not a “normal” mom, because my kids tell me so. I remind myself that this does not make me a “bad mom.” I also remind myself that if I were a dad, I would be getting accolades for all the times I scheduled a doctor’s appointment or arranged a play date.
> 
> I am proud of what I have accomplished. I am prouder that I can support myself and my children. But sometimes I wonder if my choices will damage them.
> 
> In 2017, my son’s third-grade class had a midday Thanksgiving potluck. Driving back from court, I dashed into the Whole Foods, bought the first thing I saw — a loaf of lemon poppy seed poundcake — and rushed over to school. The room was full of mothers with a smattering of dads. I was the only person in a suit. I put the lemon poppy seed loaf on a table, next to another mother’s homemade stew. My son looked over at me and winced.
> 
> After the meal, it was time for presentations. Each child had been given a piece of orange paper shaped like a leaf with prompts to answer: “I appreciate my parents because” and “this helps me to.”
> 
> One by one, the children stood up and read what they had written. Many of them talked about how much they loved their moms, because they made them delicious food or gave them a safe place to live.
> 
> I grew uncomfortable as I listened, my smile frozen on my face. What on earth was my son going to say when it was his turn? That he lived in two different houses and routinely ate boiled hot dogs and chicken fingers while his mother told true crime stories? That he had once told me, politely, as we sat down to dinner, “Mom, I think you forgot the vegetable”?
> 
> My son was one of the last children to speak. He stood up and, in a clear voice, said: “I appreciate my parents for being lawyers because they get people out of jail. This really helps me reflect, do the right thing and have positive role models.”
> 
> He looked over at me, the barest hint of a smile on his face. I wanted to leap out of my pint-size chair, raise my fists in the air and yell, “That’s my boy.” I have his orange leaf on the wall in my office. Sometimes I look over at it when I’m working late at night.
> 
> I hope my kids get it. I think they do. I love them beyond all reason, and their existence gives my life profound meaning. And I have the same feelings about my job.
> 
> @larabazelon), a professor at the University of San Francisco School of Law, is the author of, most recently, “Rectify: The Power of Restorative Justice After Wrongful Conviction.”
> 
> _The Times is committed to publishing __a diversity of letters__ to the editor. We’d like to hear what you think about this or any of our articles. Here are some __tips__. And here’s our email: __[email protected]__._
> 
> _Follow The New York Times Opinion section on __Facebook__, __Twitter (@NYTopinion)__ and __Instagram__._


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## Crackers Phinn

It's good that there are stories like this.


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## futureapl

I don't know what to say.


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## LeftRightRepeat

Provocative title.....clickbaitey even


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## intellectualuva

Wowzers.


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## awhyley

Crackers Phinn said:


> It's good that there are stories like this.



It may be true, but dagnabit.   This is the story of alot of ambitious women who just happen to have kids.  Honesty sometimes isn't the best policy for things like this.


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## LeftRightRepeat

awhyley said:


> It may be true, but dagnabit.   This is the story of alot of ambitious women who just happen to have kids.  Honesty sometimes isn't the best policy for things like this.


I like her honesty. If you read the article then you’ll see that the title is just to grab atrention


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## JFemme

My daughter and I were discussing this Op-Ed the other day....


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## awhyley

LeftRightRepeat said:


> I like her honesty. If you read the article then you’ll see that the title is just to grab atrention



Oh I read the article, and her struggle to keep it all in balance.  Knowing that she had to make strategic work decisions, which negatively impact her kids, (and that if she were a man, people wouldn't bat an eye at her missing the birthday parties and camping trips), is a tough pill to swallow.


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## Lylddlebit

Crackers Phinn said:


> It's good that there are stories like this.


I agree.


A lot of women place jobs, men, themselves over their kids.
A lot of women have children they regret.
A lot of women abort children then consider themselves excellent mothers based on the kids they keep or consider themselves childfree based the absence of children they never had.
I am not saying this as an attack. I am saying this to encourage you all to consider the full picture.

When I look at the larger picture,  the issue isn't that she is admitting this.  The truth remains the truth even when we don't like it or talk about it.   I wish there could be more transparent discussions on why people get pregnant in the first place, not just magnify outrage to the natural consequences of decisions made that often accompanies these discussions. This woman prioritized her career long before she got married or had kids.  A change would have been the  surprise. Her continuing things as they had always been isn't surprising  at all.    There is a difference between wanting children and acquiescing to having them. There is a difference between planning pregnancy  and making the best out of pregnancy.   There is a difference between wanting to be mom and parenthood being in the best interest of your child, yourself and your man.    There is a difference prioritizing your family and being capable of creating one.  We have to stop believing that parenthood modifies people's priorities people because that scenario is the exception not the rule.

For the record I would quit my job today if I believed it would negatively impact my personal life. It's just a job to me no matter how good I am at it.  I work only so I can enjoy the things I enjoy when I am not working and that is the only reason why I work. I want to be my daughter's  mother and my husband's wife for the rest of my life but that is based on how I have invested in and built my home life. If I hit the lottery tomorrow or got a good settlement I would stop working and monetize a hobby.   It's a good idea for people to be honest with themselves for how they invest in and build up their own personal lives. Not for judgment, moreso, that others don't feel negatively impacted by you just being yourself.

I know parents can be  villainized when they prioritize other things over their kids.  However, what I really  hope is that we can consider the truth of why people have kids in the first place because is not typically because they want to sacrifice all they are for their kids. This is a good topic. I hope we can discuss the complexities of this topic in this thread.


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## LeftRightRepeat

awhyley said:


> Oh I read the article, and her struggle to keep it all in balance.  Knowing that she had to make strategic work decisions, which negatively impact her kids, (and that if she were a man, people wouldn't bat an eye at her missing the birthday parties and camping trips), is a tough pill to swallow.


Then I def think honesty is the best policy.  There are other women struggling with the same issues and  it’s great when at least some women are willing to talk about it, and admit that they don’t always feel the guilt that society thinks they should.


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## Alta Angel

Succeed at home first.  No job, title, promotion, or accolade is worth my personal family relationships because I can be replaced without hesitation.  There are times when my daughters see me study, grade papers, and work at, in between, and on the way to their games.  But they are my focus at home and during their activities.  DH and I work as a team to make sure we are there during our kids special moments.  They are only young for a second...


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## Theresamonet

I’ve been binge watching Intervention and there are a lot of crack/heroin/opioid/meth addicts with these types of parents. She said she has to teach, write, and litigate or she’ll feel empty, but I’m sure her kids feel empty without their mother. The message she is sending them is that they aren’t important. But I guess all that matters is that their existence gives her life some meaning. She’s one selfish lady.


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## FoxxyLocs

I try not to judge her too harshly. Her job is important and she enjoys it. I don't think both parents have to be present at every single function and they have their father and other family members involved. 

I personally wouldn't want to be away so much, but people do it all the time. Her children aren't being neglected. I would feel differently of she didn't have a good support system and was just leaving the kids with a babysitter.


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## dicapr

FoxxyLocs said:


> I try not to judge her too harshly. Her job is important and she enjoys it. I don't think both parents have to be present at every single function and they have their father and other family members involved.
> 
> I personally wouldn't want to be away so much, but people do it all the time. Her children aren't being neglected. I would feel differently of she didn't have a good support system and was just leaving the kids with a babysitter.




I wonder if the reason her justification is acceptable is because her job is important. What if she was a manager at grocery store?  Would her justifications still work?

To me the real issue is that to get ahead at work you have to basically give up your life outside of work. She really shouldn’t have to choose between being present in her life and advancement in her career. As for the choices she made if she is at peace there is nothing more to say.


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## Zuleika

There is an unspoken agreement among many parts of society that motherhood is the ultimate goal for a woman, something that can and will fulfil every woman. A natural extension of this is the belief that simply getting pregnant (or in some extreme thought groups, being able to get pregnant) is an imperative that cannot be argued, ergo abortion is an act that goes against motherhood and therefore the purpose and existence of womenkind. I love that this article shows the other side.

It is a simple argument to put that women are born mothers and that this should be the pinnacle of their life, with all other facets of their existence (excepting for many caring for a man)falling to obscurity behind. I use simple with it’s dual meaning - it is an easily made argument, but it is also facile and lacks depth. To claim that a woman is simply an incubator and child rearer is to overstate the bestial nature of humanity. A cow is an incubator and child rearer, because she is incapable of anything else. She is a beast and knows only to breed and to nourish (herself and her calf). *The argument for motherhood above all *reduces a woman to her biological function and robs her of her humanity; a hard won humanity.

I object to insinuations that aborting a child that is unwanted, or unaffordable, makes one a bad mother, or a bad person. I would argue quite the opposite, utilitarianism would very much agree that the cost of a non-life (by many if not most belief systems) is beneficial when weighed against the potential (and statistically predictable) societal outcomes of an underfunded and/or underloved child: delinquency, underachievement, violence. A child born into lack (financial and emotional) has a greater chance of causing damage to society; there will be counter arguments putting forth that certain individuals belie this, Beethoven is always touted, but these are exceptions not rules. They shine bright but only because we do not look at the sheer volume of their failed contemporaries.  

To have a child should be a choice made by an informed individual who has the resources to provide care and support. The author of the article clearly believes that she is providing both of those things. She’s doing it in a way that absolutely challenges the assumption that women must be chained to the sink; she uses her husband to provide emotional care (revolutionary in some designated survivor backwards communities), she works a high powered and societally important job , and she chooses these two things over being the “traditional” mother. Her choice can be easily panned by those who are tied to the belief that a woman should be nothing more than a breeding machine, but it cannot be accurately derided. She has chosen well for herself and her children.


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## dicapr

Zuleika said:


> There is an unspoken agreement among many parts of society that motherhood is the ultimate goal for a woman, something that can and will fulfil every woman. A natural extension of this is the belief that simply getting pregnant (or in some extreme thought groups, being able to get pregnant) is an imperative that cannot be argued, ergo abortion is an act that goes against motherhood and therefore the purpose and existence of womenkind. I love that this article shows the other side.
> 
> It is a simple argument to put that women are born mothers and that this should be the pinnacle of their life, with all other facets of their existence (excepting for many caring for a man)falling to obscurity behind. I use simple with it’s dual meaning - it is an easily made argument, but it is also facile and lacks depth. To claim that a woman is simply an incubator and child rearer is to overstate the bestial nature of humanity. A cow is an incubator and child rearer, because she is incapable of anything else. She is a beast and knows only to breed and to nourish (herself and her calf). *The argument for motherhood above all *reduces a woman to her biological function and robs her of her humanity; a hard won humanity.
> 
> I object to insinuations that aborting a child that is unwanted, or unaffordable, makes one a bad mother, or a bad person. I would argue quite the opposite, utilitarianism would very much agree that the cost of a non-life (by many if not most belief systems) is beneficial when weighed against the potential (and statistically predictable) societal outcomes of an underfunded and/or underloved child: delinquency, underachievement, violence. A child born into lack (financial and emotional) has a greater chance of causing damage to society; there will be counter arguments putting forth that certain individuals belie this, Beethoven is always touted, but these are exceptions not rules. They shine bright but only because we do not look at the sheer volume of their failed contemporaries.
> 
> To have a child should be a choice made by an informed individual who has the resources to provide care and support. The author of the article clearly believes that she is providing both of those things. She’s doing it in a way that absolutely challenges the assumption that women must be chained to the sink; she uses her husband to provide emotional care (revolutionary in some designated survivor backwards communities), she works a high powered and societally important job , and she chooses these two things over being the “traditional” mother. Her choice can be easily panned by those who are tied to the belief that a woman should be nothing more than a breeding machine, but it cannot be accurately derided. She has chosen well for herself and her children.



I don’t think that is what is making people uncomfortable. She chose to have kids but she also chose to put her own desire for success in her career above her children by her own admission.  That’s what gives me pause. Not saying she is wrong for what she does but I don’t understand her choice. One reason it has taken me so long to pursue motherhood is because I was not able/didn’t want to make the sacrifice that come along with it.

I don’t believe motherhood is the end all be all for women. I think that the choice to have children is just as valid as the choice not to have children. But I do scratch my head at the idea of having not one but two children and deciding that they come second to your wants and needs.

If someone adopted a dog and explained that they just didn’t not have the time to adequately take care of it would give most people pause.  We definitely would question their decision to get a second pet if their job/social life was not conducive to caring for the pet or that for long chunks of time the dog was boarded and cared for by someone else.


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## Evolving78

People need to get a clue about why they want to have children in the first place, and stop treating that as something go check off on the “life to do list”.  Family comes first once you created it. Men and women included. Kids don’t care about your accolades at work, neither does your spouse. They are happy for you, but it doesn’t replace what they want and need from you.


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## dicapr

Evolving78 said:


> People need to get a clue about why they want to have children in the first place, and stop treating that as something go check off on the “life to do list”.  Family comes first once you created it. Men and women included. Kids don’t care about your accolades at work, neither does your spouse. They are happy for you, but it doesn’t replace what they want and need from you.




Exactly. I feel the same way about men. Don’t take on the responsibility of being a parent if you don’t want to make the sacrifices it takes to be a parent. I am a big proponent of not having kids just because society says you are supposed to. It’s not for everyone and I applaud anyone who has the courage to be honest with themselves enough to say that isn’t something I want for my life.

This is one reason I’m glad I’m fostering first. If I decide parenthood isn’t for me I can decide not to adopt.


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## LeftRightRepeat

Her children are not being neglected.  She has an equal co-parent in their father. 

Believe it or not, even the manager of the local grocery store has to prioritize her job over her children sometimes, if she wants to keep her job e.g. she has to work Saturdays and their dad or grandmother has to take them to soccer or birthday parties . 

I don't see the issue.  She's not saying that she doesn't want to be a mother or hates her children.


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## Lylddlebit

dicapr said:


> I wonder if the reason her justification is acceptable is because her job is important. What if she was a manager at grocery store?  Would her justifications still work?
> 
> To me the real issue is that to get ahead at work you have to basically give up your life outside of work. She really shouldn’t have to choose between being present in her life and advancement in her career. As for the choices she made if she is at peace there is nothing more to say.




Okay I like this one because that is what I am talking about. To me the prestige of her job *doesn't* make a difference to me. If being a doctor, lawyer, or engineer, causes you to need to work hours equivalent to  a single mom with multiple jobs or your a single mom so you are working full time and going to school full time what all of these scenarios have in common is that your time is limited in a way that *can *negatively impacts your family. So no matter if people view what you are doing to take care of business as noble or selfish is the lesser concern to counting the cost.  Do you have to capacity to be the type of mother your children deserve?  Do you have the capacity to be competitive in your field? Which one is more important to you? Is the hierarchy of importance based on need, relationship, morals, money, prestige,  time(and time can be it running out, the time required for a thing, or the time you felt you have already invested into it.  No one is entitled to have it all.  Pulling off having it all takes extraordinary talent, support, and circumstances.  There is sacrifice somewhere but who is paying the cost for your (your used generally of course) decisions.


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## dicapr

LeftRightRepeat said:


> Her children are not being neglected.  She has an equal co-parent in their father.
> 
> Believe it or not, even the manager of the local grocery store has to prioritize their job over their children sometimes, if she wants to keep her job e.g. she has to work Saturdays and their dad or grandmother has to take them to soccer or birthday parties .
> 
> I don't see the issue.  She's not saying that she doesn't want to be a mother or hates her children.



Of course sometimes children are not the priority.

 But she seems to have a pattern of putting her children second-that is an issue for me. She states her ex-husband is a good parent. Why not give him primary custody to give the children more stability?  She can still be a great mom, involved in their lives, ect. That way she can  have a better work/life balance?


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## Bette Davis Eyes

Biggest regret I have is leaving the military early. My oldest son didnt know who I was.

I felt I owed it to him to be present more.  

If I had a  chance to do it over, I would have tried to make it work.  I loved my career but I loved my son more.

I understand it though.  We all have to make our decisions based on whats best for you.


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## Evolving78

dicapr said:


> Exactly. I feel the same way about men. Don’t take on the responsibility of being a parent if you don’t want to make the sacrifices it takes to be a parent. I am a big proponent of not having kids just because society says you are supposed to. It’s not for everyone and I applaud anyone who has the courage to be honest with themselves enough to say that isn’t something I want for my life.
> 
> This is one reason I’m glad I’m fostering first. If I decide parenthood isn’t for me I can decide not to adopt.


Oh wow! God bless you on your foster parenting journey! That just made me smile!


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## Leeda.the.Paladin

That’s a very interesting 3rd grade boy to ask for vegetables and to side eye his mom for what she brings to the potluck. My boys could care less 

It doesn’t seem like the kids are neglected. I do think that she may want to wait to breathe a sigh of relief because you never know what kids internalize. Even parents who are home all the time can have a ticking time bomb.

Children should never think that they are the center of our being. I say this as a parent who homeschools and has mostly been at home. I also say this a mom whose had to miss Christmas Day, Thanksgiving, etc because when I do work, it’s very wonky hours. I tell my kids that I have patients that need someone to look after them even on holidays and that happens to be my job.

Parents also need to stop comparing themselves to other parents so much. I’ve had a few working moms over the years come to me and tell me how bad I make them feel for being at home most of the time. And that they don’t want to homeschool. You’ll kill your kid if you homeschool them? Then by all means, please send them to school  You wish you wanted to spend more time with your kid? Well you don’t. And that’s ok. Just be honest and do the best you can.

There’s no one way to parent. And none of us is perfect, least of all me. I think the mom in the OP is putting forth a lot of effort for her kids,however polarizing the title is trying to be,


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## LeftRightRepeat

dicapr said:


> Of course sometimes children are not the priority.
> 
> But she seems to have a pattern of putting her children second-that is an issue for me. She states her ex-husband is a good parent. Why not give him primary custody to give the children more stability?  She can still be a great mom, involved in their lives, ect. That way she can  have a better work/life balance?



He  is also a lawyer and probably also works a lot of hours and possibly travels.  The  difference is nobody would be shocked by the possibility of him not being there for every parent/teacher conference or birthday party,  so there is no article from him detailing these occurrences ( because nobody would read it).


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## Lylddlebit

dicapr said:


> I don’t think that is what is making people uncomfortable. She chose to have kids but she also chose to put her own desire for success in her career above her children by her own admission.  That’s what gives me pause. Not saying she is wrong for what she does but I don’t understand her choice. One reason it has taken me so long to pursue motherhood is because I was not able/didn’t want to make the sacrifice that come along with it.
> 
> I don’t believe motherhood is the end all be all for women. I think that the choice to have children is just as valid as the choice not to have children. But I do scratch my head at the idea of having not one but two children and deciding that they come second to your wants and needs.
> 
> If someone adopted a dog and explained that they just didn’t not have the time to adequately take care of it would give most people pause.  We definitely would question their decision to get a second pet if their job/social life was not conducive to caring for the pet or that for long chunks of time the dog was boarded and cared for by someone else.




I am so glad you said this.  You articulated this point much better than could have and that is pretty much my story.  A  guy propositioning unprotected sex  without insurance and assurance that proves the act is a combination of  responsible, enjoyable and timed correctly  is





 shocking, insulting and I am sorry that  I or society have given you(meaning the dude) reasons to believe that is an option but the answer to that is "no Sir, and I understand if this causes you to peruse other options(women because it won't be me)."  He and I aren't making it to the 'what do I do with this pregnancy?' phase.  It's a rigid "no" to unprotected sex without the necessary prerequisites because of what pregnancy would cost me in a circumstance that my prerequisites were not met.  @Zuleika it really wasn't a "motherhood for all" deal in my case but you bring up a good point society's view.  People have to  live with what their life becomes whether they get the cosign or condemnation for it that's a harder pill to swallow than public opinion.  I fully enjoyed being single and pretty much decided if I couldn't find the type of dude that poured value into my life  then I just wasn't going to be married ...if I didn't have my affairs  in order and be at a place where the things I wanted to do as a single ran it's course then I was okay with not conceiving children.   There is value in  enjoying the advantages of each season while you are actually in that season so that once that season runs it's course you don't necessarily need to miss it once it's gone and you also  didn't miss out on it while it was in full effect. There is so much value in being able to enjoy being single during the time you are young and single...being able to enjoy  your career popping when you can focus on it without distractions and limitations from men or kids  and being a mom when you have the capacity to focus on that but sometimes we cheat ourselves out of those advantages by looking to enjoy those things  during times where our other priorities outshine them.

Thanks @dicapr for bringing up your perspective of why you have waited to pursue motherhood.   It is often overlooked why people who would make good mothers don't conceive children or why a couple who seems great doesn't have children as if it's a negative.  I would imagine that the decision to never conceive children would be one of the hardest decisions a woman could make as a good woman, as a good wife or as a good mother when the justification to why some women who would have made excellent mothers never have kids is she wants to give her child(ren) more than just her awesomeness. A lot of people who don't fit the status quo don't fit it based on a cost benefit analysis.


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## HappilyLiberal

Zuleika said:


> There is an unspoken agreement among many parts of society that motherhood is the ultimate goal for a woman, something that can and will fulfil every woman. A natural extension of this is the belief that simply getting pregnant (or in some extreme thought groups, being able to get pregnant) is an imperative that cannot be argued, ergo abortion is an act that goes against motherhood and therefore the purpose and existence of womenkind. I love that this article shows the other side.
> 
> It is a simple argument to put that women are born mothers and that this should be the pinnacle of their life, with all other facets of their existence (excepting for many caring for a man)falling to obscurity behind. I use simple with it’s dual meaning - it is an easily made argument, but it is also facile and lacks depth. To claim that a woman is simply an incubator and child rearer is to overstate the bestial nature of humanity. A cow is an incubator and child rearer, because she is incapable of anything else. She is a beast and knows only to breed and to nourish (herself and her calf). *The argument for motherhood above all *reduces a woman to her biological function and robs her of her humanity; a hard won humanity.
> 
> I object to insinuations that aborting a child that is unwanted, or unaffordable, makes one a bad mother, or a bad person. I would argue quite the opposite, utilitarianism would very much agree that the cost of a non-life (by many if not most belief systems) is beneficial when weighed against the potential (and statistically predictable) societal outcomes of an underfunded and/or underloved child: delinquency, underachievement, violence. A child born into lack (financial and emotional) has a greater chance of causing damage to society; there will be counter arguments putting forth that certain individuals belie this, Beethoven is always touted, but these are exceptions not rules. They shine bright but only because we do not look at the sheer volume of their failed contemporaries.
> 
> To have a child should be a choice made by an informed individual who has the resources to provide care and support. The author of the article clearly believes that she is providing both of those things. She’s doing it in a way that absolutely challenges the assumption that women must be chained to the sink; she uses her husband to provide emotional care (revolutionary in some designated survivor backwards communities), she works a high powered and societally important job , and she chooses these two things over being the “traditional” mother. Her choice can be easily panned by those who are tied to the belief that a woman should be nothing more than a breeding machine, but it cannot be accurately derided. She has chosen well for herself and her children.


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## Covagirlm

Good for her!


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## awhyley

To the persons who say that she has a good support system, I'm not really sure whether this is the case, as I feel that it's something people say when they want to make themselves feel better about the decisions that they're making.  Her husband is a lawyer as well, so whose to say that he picks up the slack?   The fact that her daughter took it so hard when she missed that birthday party spoke volumes, (esp. since she only booked the date to gain a competitive advantage for her case).   Also, when her son had to resort to saying that he was proud that she was a lawyer, I felt bad for her as the other children could definitatively point out instances where they saw their mother/parent doing for them, while he could not.  Having a 'support system' isn't the same as having your mother there when she's needed/wanted.



Alta Angel said:


> Succeed at home first.  No job, title, promotion, or accolade is worth my personal family relationships because I can be replaced without hesitation.



#BIGFACTS



dicapr said:


> If someone adopted a dog and explained that they just didn’t not have the time to adequately take care of it would give most people pause.



Sadly, an incident for a neglected animal would be addressed and handled more swiftly than one for a neglected child, (esp. one from 'successful' parents).


----------



## lesedi

Let me just leave.


----------



## LeftRightRepeat

awhyley said:


> To the persons who say that she has a good support system, I'm not really sure whether this is the case, as I feel that it's something people say when they want to make themselves feel better about the decisions that they're making.  Her husband is a lawyer as well, so whose to say that he picks up the slack?   The fact that her daughter took it so hard when she missed that birthday party spoke volumes, (esp. since she only booked the date to gain a competitive advantage for her case).   Also, when her son had to resort to saying that he was proud that she was a lawyer, I felt bad for her as the other children could definitely point out instances where they saw their mother/parent doing for them, while he could not.  Having a 'support system' isn't the same as having your mother there when she's needed/wanted.
> 
> 
> 
> #BIGFACTS



Who is to say that she doesn’t? I feel that is something people say to judge mothers who don’t parent the way they think they should. 

If a child crying means that she’s not doing it right then I’m also guilty, and   If missing a birthday party here or there is one of the worst offenses then I think the kids will be ok.


----------



## dicapr

bad post


----------



## dicapr

LeftRightRepeat said:


> Who is to say that she doesn’t? I feel that is something people say to judge mothers who don’t parent the way they think they should.
> 
> If a child crying means that she’s not doing it right then I’m also guilty, and   If missing a birthday party here or there is one of the worst offenses then I think the kids will be ok.



The children will be ok, however they will be affected. Like the article states you can’t have everything.  You can’t make choices that are best for you and expect because it to automatically be the right choice for your child and vice versa.  The right choice for your child isn’t always the best choice for you. 

She made some choices even she didn’t feel great about. It doesn’t mean that she is a bad mom or her kids feel unloved. It does mean that in order to achieve in her career she made the hard choice to put her needs ahead of her home life. 

Everyone does it (children or no children) and it is always a questionable decision.  Only the person making the decision can decide if it was worth it in the end.


----------



## Brownie

Evolving78 said:


> People need to get a clue about why they want to have children in the first place, and stop treating that as something go check off on the “life to do list”.  Family comes first once you created it. Men and women included. Kids don’t care about your accolades at work, neither does your spouse. They are happy for you, but it doesn’t replace what they want and need from you.





Saw this quote/saying that if you died today, your employer would probably have your position filled before your obituary is printed.


----------



## ScorpioBeauty09

dicapr said:


> To me the real issue is that to get ahead at work you have to basically give up your life outside of work. She really shouldn’t have to choose between being present in her life and advancement in her career. As for the choices she made if she is at peace there is nothing more to say.


My mom told me this as a child all the time. She said what it takes to succeed in the workplace is the opposite of what is required to build relationships. I didn't realize it then but she was talking about my dad.  And I had to watch the consequences of this play out in my parent's marriage. My mom was a stay at home mom, but she went back to school twice and obtained a professional license while raising multiple children, and now she's back at work while my dad's retired. Any project, paper or anything school related I needed help with, she was there. At the same time, I was usually one of the last kids picked up, even if I needed to come home because I was sick.  My dad was a successful surgeon for many years, provided his family a wonderful life but my relationship with him is not as strong as it could be. There was a time he came in the house when I was 4 and I didn't know who he was. 

I'm thinking about this topic as I get closer to getting engaged to SO and we plan our life together, since we do want children.



dicapr said:


> I don’t think that is what is making people uncomfortable. *She chose to have kids but she also chose to put her own desire for success in her career above her children by her own admission.  That’s what gives me pause. Not saying she is wrong for what she does but I don’t understand her choice.* One reason it has taken me so long to pursue motherhood is because I was not able/didn’t want to make the sacrifice that come along with it.
> 
> I don’t believe motherhood is the end all be all for women. I think that the choice to have children is just as valid as the choice not to have children. But I do scratch my head at the idea of having not one but two children and deciding that they come second to your wants and needs.
> 
> If someone adopted a dog and explained that they just didn’t not have the time to adequately take care of it would give most people pause.  We definitely would question their decision to get a second pet if their job/social life was not conducive to caring for the pet or that for long chunks of time the dog was boarded and cared for by someone else.


All this. Motherhood and career is a tricky one for women and we're already scrutinized so much I don't want to add to it. BUT, I am curious about the bolded, because as you said, I don't understand.  It reminds me of this post from Humans of NY:


The comments were crazy. I'm a big believer in to each her own. My only question was her motivation to have children in the first place. But people saw red just for asking that.


----------



## Everything Zen

I’m sorry but whose kids really needed deep emotional therapy bc their parents missed a few birthdays? 

I didn’t see my dad a whole lot growing up bc he worked the night shift until I was a teenager and I used to be afraid of him bc he was very serious and had a bit of a temper until he aged out but as we got older our relationships are great. I spent a lot of time with my grandma and aunt in my younger years after school until I could stay for after school activities and started gymnastics. My parents even tried to get me into chess then didn’t play with me and I had to basically learn and play by myself.  I know that’s my own personal anecdote but I guess only children are used to figuring things out on their own and being by themselves a lot.


----------



## Everything Zen

Evolving78 said:


> People need to get a clue about why they want to have children in the first place, and stop treating that as something go check off on the “life to do list”.  Family comes first once you created it. Men and women included. Kids don’t care about your accolades at work, neither does your spouse. They are happy for you, but it doesn’t replace what they want and need from you.



 

The other thing is kids didn’t ask/sign up to be here. Also men tend to push far more parental responsibilities off onto their partners which causes resentment IMO.


----------



## Evolving78

ScorpioBeauty09 said:


> My mom told me this as a child all the time. She said what it takes to succeed in the workplace is the opposite of what is required to build relationships. I didn't realize it then but she was talking about my dad.  And I had to watch the consequences of this play out in my parent's marriage. My mom was a stay at home mom, but she went back to school twice and obtained a professional license while raising multiple children, and now she's back at work while my dad's retired. Any project, paper or anything school related I needed help with, she was there. At the same time, I was usually one of the last kids picked up, even if I needed to come home because I was sick.  My dad was a successful surgeon for many years, provided his family a wonderful life but my relationship with him is not as strong as it could be. There was a time he came in the house when I was 4 and I didn't know who he was.
> 
> I'm thinking about this topic as I get closer to getting engaged to SO and we plan our life together, since we do want children.
> 
> 
> All this. Motherhood and career is a tricky one for women and we're already scrutinized so much I don't want to add to it. BUT, I am curious about the bolded, because as you said, I don't understand.  It reminds me of this post from Humans of NY:
> 
> 
> The comments were crazy. I'm a big believer in to each her own. My only question was her motivation to have children in the first place. But people saw red just for asking that.


I know of senior manager’s wife whom left him as soon as the last child was out of the house. He was a workaholic.


----------



## chocolat79

Brownie said:


> Saw this quote/saying that if you died today, your employer would probably have your position filled before your obituary is printed.


I live by this in my career.


----------



## dancinstallion

ScorpioBeauty09 said:


> My mom told me this as a child all the time. She said what it takes to succeed in the workplace is the opposite of what is required to build relationships. I didn't realize it then but she was talking about my dad.  And I had to watch the consequences of this play out in my parent's marriage. My mom was a stay at home mom, but she went back to school twice and obtained a professional license while raising multiple children, and now she's back at work while my dad's retired. Any project, paper or anything school related I needed help with, she was there. At the same time, I was usually one of the last kids picked up, even if I needed to come home because I was sick.  My dad was a successful surgeon for many years, provided his family a wonderful life but my relationship with him is not as strong as it could be. There was a time he came in the house when I was 4 and I didn't know who he was.
> 
> I'm thinking about this topic as I get closer to getting engaged to SO and we plan our life together, since we do want children.
> 
> 
> All this. Motherhood and career is a tricky one for women and we're already scrutinized so much I don't want to add to it. BUT, I am curious about the bolded, because as you said, I don't understand.  It reminds me of this post from Humans of NY:
> 
> 
> The comments were crazy. I'm a big believer in to each her own. My only question was her motivation to have children in the first place. But people saw red just for asking that.



I agree with her.  I had good life or I was starting a better life before kids. I was talented, won competitions and major championships, I went on tour, bought my house, and travelled all before age 22.
So I can't relate to the parents that say their kids are the best thing that happened to them. 

Having kids is One of the most important jobs to raise them right, but a MD, lawyer etc are important jobs too. And I can see how kids don't bring that same fulfillment as saving someone's life daily or weekly.


----------



## dancinstallion

I remember a few pro football players saying how they had to go to therapy after retiring because nothing in life brought them that same joy and pleasure as playing in front of a crowd. Having kids and a wife didn't replace that feeling. It just wasn't enough.  Same situation as the OP putting career before their kids.


----------



## Everything Zen

My dad says kids bring perspective to your life bc the focus is no longer just about you. 

I’m like well thanks for dragging me into this hellhole to straighten out your existence.


----------



## dancinstallion

ScorpioBeauty09 said:


> The comments were crazy. I'm a big believer in to each her own. My only question was her motivation to have children in the first place. But people saw red just for asking that.



It is possible that her motivation to have children was the same as others. She wanted children. She was obviously older, educated, married and financially stable. Which is the perfect time and condition to bring children into the world.

It could be that it wasn't until after having a kid that she felt like this isn't what she expected. Her kid isn't bringing her joy as she thought and was told having a child would, and this isn't how family, friends, and society make people believe it is the best thing in life and the mother is going to feel so much love and happiness. Well what now when that doesn't happen??


----------



## LeftRightRepeat

[QUOTE“He’s starting to be less dependent, but so far it’s been pretty relentless and repetitive. A lot of changing diapers and feeding. The same mundane task over and over again. It can be exhausting and depersonalizing. ][/QUOTE]

a lot of people feel this way but are afraid to say it out loud because of  the judgement.  Baby stage not fun for me at all, so i get what she's saying - and it's not that she regrets having children. I've said it on here a bunch of times that my favourite stage was 5 years old and up.

Anyway with regard to her plan to go back to work ,  it could be that she earns more than her husband and the plan was always for him to stay home.


----------



## dancinstallion

I think more mothers need to speak up and be honest with childless women. Give all sides to the story. Talk about the trials and tribulations, the highs and the lows of parenthood.

Let them know a child may bring them joy, happiness and fulfillment or it may not. Let them know that many mothers resent their children or resent themselves for having children. Postpartum depression and psychosis is real.

Ask them if they are willing to sacrifice their wants, needs, freedom and possibly their career for children.
Ask them are they willing to put in the work, time, dedication and resources that it takes to build strong children into successful adults or to take care of a special needs child. 

Ask them if they have a good support system. Tell them how hard it is to raise a child without one.


----------



## Alta Angel

LOL!!!  I have come to believe that the purpose of children is to hold a mirror up to you daily.  You see reflected in them all of your hopes and dreams, fears and insecurities, love and honesty.  My children have taught me more about myself than any self-help book.  That being said, don't have them if you are unwilling to put in the work.



Everything Zen said:


> My dad says kids bring perspective to your life bc the focus is no longer just about you.
> 
> I’m like well thanks for dragging me into this hellhole to straighten out your existence.


----------



## beingofserenity

I feel like she's still a good mom and it seems her kids (at least her son) know that she loves them.


----------



## ScorpioBeauty09

dancinstallion said:


> It is possible that her motivation to have children was the same as others. She wanted children. She was obviously older, educated, married and financially stable. Which is the perfect time and condition to bring children into the world.
> 
> It could be that it wasn't until after having a kid that she felt like this isn't what she expected. Her kid isn't bringing her joy as she thought and was told having a child would, and this isn't how family, friends, and society make people believe it is the best thing in life and the mother is going to feel so much love and happiness. Well what now when that doesn't happen??


We had different upbringings then because my mom was always crystal clear that raising children is one of the hardest things in the world. Maybe people around me talked about motherhood with rose colored glasses and it went in one ear and out the other but motherhood was never idealized by anyone I paid attention to. 

So we’re looking at things from different wavelengths.


----------



## dicapr

Everything Zen said:


> I’m sorry but whose kids really needed deep emotional therapy bc their parents missed a few birthdays?
> 
> I didn’t see my dad a whole lot growing up bc he worked the night shift until I was a teenager and I used to be afraid of him bc he was very serious and had a bit of a temper until he aged out but as we got older our relationships are great. I spent a lot of time with my grandma and aunt in my younger years after school until I could stay for after school activities and started gymnastics. My parents even tried to get me into chess then didn’t play with me and I had to basically learn and play by myself.  I know that’s my own personal anecdote but I guess only children are used to figuring things out on their own and being by themselves a lot.



People tend to think of the kids are well adjusted and don’t need therapy they are “all right”. The parenting classes I had to take really shed light on how issues adults have in relationships when they grow up can be affected by their relationships as kids.

Children with damaged attachments to the adults in their lives have issues with their partners and friends when they get older. They tend to be overly independent or overly needy. Just because a child understands why mommy and daddy are not present doesn’t mean they have the emotional maturity to handle the disappointment without learning unhealthy coping skills.

It doesn’t mean your child can never be disappointed or you have to be at their beck and call. It just means that as a parent you need to look at your child’s emotional maturity in these situations.


----------



## Kanky

dicapr said:


> People tend to think of the kids are well adjusted and don’t need therapy they are “all right”. The parenting classes I had to take really shed light on how issues adults have in relationships when they grow up can be affected by their relationships as kids.
> 
> Children with damaged attachments to the adults in their lives have issues with their partners and friends when they get older. They tend to be overly independent or overly needy. Just because a child understands why mommy and daddy are not present doesn’t mean they have the emotional maturity to handle the disappointment without learning unhealthy coping skills.
> 
> It doesn’t mean your child can never be disappointed or you have to be at their beck and call. It just means that as a parent you need to look at your child’s emotional maturity in these situations.


 There a lot of adults who have trouble forming healthy relationships because of the way that they were raised. 

People seem to think that child abuse/neglect is a black and white issue. Either you were abused or you were not. But it is more of spectrum. The woman in the OP is not a good parent and is damaging her children.


----------



## GreenEyedJen

I'm coming at this article and discussion from the perspective of a child raised by two Black attorneys that met while attending one of the ten top ranked law schools in the country, and who had children in their thirties and forties (and, with my little brother, approaching fifty).

No one knows what the effects of their parenting will be, until they have children. Now that I'm a year away from the age my mother was when she had me, I understand that more than ever.

Neither my brother nor I resented our parents for working. In fact, we still talk about, to this day, how proud we'd be when we'd see our parents dressed for a fancy outing, or Dad coming home with one of his many awards, or Mom being promoted, again. I actually _just _sent Mom a text this morning, telling her she's literally the most amazing woman I know; reminding myself that I'm half "her" keeps me going when I get discouraged with my station in life. Not to mention the fact that we were able to grow up in an area ranked by Forbes as the 4th best place in the country to live, and could keep up with our private school friends mentally and monetarily. Yes, it mattered and it felt good. 

Both my brother and I take work, status, prestige, and respect seriously. Having parents that beat the odds (Mom was dirt, I mean _dirt, _poor; Dad, while from a prestigious family, was a Vietnam Vet that served as a medic) is a huge part of what makes us feel so good about ourselves. We both think our parents are amazing. We'd never want for anyone else. 

When we were growing up, our Dad would always tell us his goal as a father was to make sure we could make it when he wasn't here anymore. It used to upset me, but when we lost him unexpectedly when we were both still in our twenties, it gave both of us  strength we didn't know we had. I made it through the other side because of him. And Mom. And Brother. Period. They were the reason I didn't lose everything--because through my life, they showed me that I could take care of myself, I make good decisions, and I'm okay. What I want for _me _is okay. Again, that's in no small part due to the work they put in crafting amazing careers and giving us something to look up to. And that included business trips, missing crying phone calls, me being a latch-key kid, and more. 

However. They got lucky with two children that wound up caring about having a good career, doing well, and looking good as much as they did. It could have been just as possible that they had two children that could care less about education, travel, money, and resented them for being successful. That's not something you know until the children are here. 

I don't want children. I don't want children because I can't be the parents mine were. I want the career _and _I want my kids to feel the way I did about mine. I'm nowhere near that place in my life. I'm not interested in any time taken from my career at the moment, and I doubt I ever will. And guess what? My parents let me know that was okay. Seeing them let me realize my life can be whatever I want it to be. 

No one knows what the effects of their parenting will be until they have children.


----------



## momi

...


----------



## Maracujá

Covagirlm said:


> Good for her!



I remember visiting one of my besties at the hospital, after she gave birth to her second. I asked her if she was going to breastfeed him as well, seeing as she had had two children back to back. She confirmed she would, because it would be best for her. Everyone else is free to do what they like. 

It reminds me of the simple reply you just typed out, can't wait to reach this level of maturity to just do me and let everyone else do them.


----------



## Ms. Tarabotti

I'm just wondering why children become messed up if the mother isn't 'there' but no one says boo if the father isn't around because he is 'working'. Is it because it fits into the mother as nurturer, father as provider roles?  Why is okay for the father to miss the school plays and the birthday parties but the mom is treated like dirt when she does?

Today's parents want to give their children the best of everything and that costs money. If you have a high paying job, chances are you'll be working long hours and times when you would rather be doing something else ( because of the poor work- life balance in this country). There are going to be times when you have to miss the school play or the occasional birthday party. There are times that the father of the child can and should be there for the child.

Each family has to figure out this balancing act of work and family for themselves- what works for my family might not work for yours. I'm not going to declare the women in the article a bad mother because she made different choices than I might have. There are enough people pointing at mothers and saying that 'you aren't doing it right' and I won't add extra guilt on a mother..

Do what you think is best for you and yours.


----------



## Cheleigh

Title was click-bait-y, but I do understand her position. My hubby and I tag-team our kid. My career can been cyclically demanding, and hubby's business hours span all seven days in random timeframes. I am the mom who does like to attend the school events, all the doctor's appointments, etc. but my hubby takes some of the slack on those things, and for that I'm grateful, even if  (very small) part of me would like to be that mom from Leave it to Beaver.  I try to make the sacrifices necessary to be there for those important "unimportant" activities like being on the PTA, helping out at the school BBQ. My mom was a fantastic mom, but as a working single parent, she was rarely there at those mid-morning school assemblies or hauling me to piano rehearsal (thankful that my Granny and Granddad always stood in the gap) and I want to ensure that my kid can expect that one or both  of us will be there for that level of support. I believe the upside for OUR family is that my kid's expectation is not just that "mommy" can fix it, but can rely on DADDY or MOMMY for day-to-day needs and support.


----------



## KimPossibli

yes.



Ms. Tarabotti said:


> I'm just wondering why children become messed up if the mother isn't 'there' but no one says boo if the father isn't around because he is 'working'. Is it because it fits into the mother as nurturer, father as provider roles?  Why is okay for the father to miss the school plays and the birthday parties but the mom is treated like dirt when she does?
> 
> Today's parents want to give their children the best of everything and that costs money. If you have a high paying job, chances are you'll be working long hours and times when you would rather be doing something else ( because of the poor work- life balance in this country). There are going to be times when you have to miss the school play or the occasional birthday party. There are times that the father of the child can and should be there for the child.
> 
> Each family has to figure out this balancing act of work and family for themselves- what works for my family might not work for yours. I'm not going to declare the women in the article a bad mother because she made different choices than I might have. There are enough people pointing at mothers and saying that 'you aren't doing it right' and I won't add extra guilt on a mother..
> 
> Do what you think is best for you and yours.


----------



## Kanky

Ms. Tarabotti said:


> I'm just wondering why children become messed up if the mother isn't 'there' but no one says boo if the father isn't around because he is 'working'.


People absolutely criticize workaholic fathers as well. The workaholic father/neglected kid who is desperate for his father’s attention is a pretty common trope in movies and books as well.


----------



## kikigirl

Kanky said:


> There a lot of adults who have trouble forming healthy relationships because of the way that they were raised.
> 
> People seem to think that child abuse/neglect is a black and white issue. Either you were abused or you were not. But it is more of spectrum. The woman in the OP is not a good parent and is damaging her children.



Re-quoting for emphasis. 

This is the kind of uncomfortable truth that one tries to suppress when one’s the mom with a pile of law school or med school loans, or the single mom who has to make ends meet. Younger generations of professional men are starting to feel it too.

Hopefully our society will tip over to the point where we make work-life balance a parenting problem rather than a women’s problem. 

Not holding my breath though, especially in the legal field.

So yeah, to each family its own, but IMO that’s a cop-out from addressing the insurmountable elephant in the room.


----------



## Kanky

kikigirl said:


> Re-quoting for emphasis.
> 
> This is the kind of uncomfortable truth that one tries to suppress when one’s the mom with a pile of law school or med school loans, or the single mom who has to make ends meet. Younger generations of professional men are starting to feel it too.
> 
> Hopefully our society will tip over to the point where we make work-life balance a parenting problem rather than a women’s problem.
> 
> Not holding my breath though, especially in the legal field.
> 
> So yeah, to each family its own, but IMO that’s a cop-out from addressing the insurmountable elephant in the room.



Yes, people would rather discuss how we shouldn’t make these kinds of parents feel guilty. If we won’t even acknowledge that it is bad parenting then we can’t come up with any solutions. We are one of the only countries in the world without paid maternity leave, but people are too busy trying not to feel guilty about dropping a newborn off at daycare to insist that it is needed. 


 A lot of the kids raised by mothers like the ones in the OP are insisting on the exact opposite for their own children. The millennials raised by Gen X and Boomer parents are more likely to want to have a parent in the home and flexible work schedules. They are also more likely to insist on very involved fathers that share the parenting load. I think that we will get to that work life balance in the near future.


----------



## kikigirl

Kanky said:


> Yes, people would rather discuss how we shouldn’t make these kinds of parents feel guilty. If we won’t even acknowledge that it is bad parenting then we can’t come up with any solutions. *We are one of the only countries in the world without paid maternity leave, but people are too busy trying not to feel guilty about dropping a newborn off at daycare to insist that it is needed. *
> 
> 
> A lot of the kids raised by mothers like the ones in the OP are insisting on the exact opposite for their own children. The millennials raised by Gen X and Boomer parents are more likely to want to have a parent in the home and flexible work schedules. They are also more likely to insist on very involved fathers that share the parenting load. I think that we will get to that work life balance in the near future.



Yes to all of this!!!! Especially the bolded.

At my workplace paternity leave just jumped from 6 weeks to 5 months!!!! I have at least 3 male colleagues who are taking it now (and imagine the relief it’ll provide to their families). These are attorneys who are as busy as the OP.

We have to acknowledge the problems and collectively (men and women) find solutions that foster healthy families rather than find out more original ways to farm out all childcare/rearing to others.

I’ve stopped taking our mothers’ lunches seriously because it’s just a lot of “You go girl! Your kid will be fine!” vs. constructive solutions.


----------



## Kanky

kikigirl said:


> Yes to all of this!!!! Especially the bolded.
> 
> At my workplace paternity leave just jumped from 6 weeks to 5 months!!!! I have at least 3 male colleagues who are taking it now (and imagine the relief it’ll provide to their families). These are attorneys who are as busy as the OP.
> 
> We have to acknowledge the problems and collectively (men and women) find solutions that foster healthy families rather than find out more original ways to farm out all childcare/rearing to others.
> 
> I’ve stopped taking our mothers’ lunches seriously because it’s just a lot of “You go girl! Your kid will be fine!” vs. constructive solutions.


Parents use the supposed resilience of children as an excuse to continue with bad parenting and as a way to deal with their guilt. The worst of the damage doesn’t show up until years later when the kid can’t manage a healthy marriage and children of his or her own, but parents can pretend that it is “fine” in the moment.  The children of drug addicts will also claim to be fine, and some of them grow up to be functioning members of society. But why is the bar so low?

The focus should be on giving kids a childhood that they don’t have to recover from.


----------



## KimPossibli

We don't live in a society that values parenting though... not in a tangible way 

if we did there would be more social nets to catch struggling parents... 

mothers and fathers should get parental leave, and I'm not even talking just post partum 

those are things that lead to the needs that children have being met... and those are the things that allow parents to attend to their children rather than being scared to lose their place in the rat race.. or worse yet... having to earn the money that puts food in the smae childrens bodys...


----------



## kimpaur

The son at the very least seems to be very well adjusted ,based on his "leaf"

 If you called to report this woman for her supposed neglect they would laugh you off the phone 

I don't have children but I find this article courageous and bold and I respect it


----------



## Kanky

kimpaur said:


> The son at the very least seems to be very well adjusted ,based on his "leaf"
> 
> If you called to report this woman for her supposed neglect they would laugh you off the phone
> 
> I don't have children but I find this article courageous and bold and I respect it


Parenting is not so black and white where you are either an awesome parent or CPS should remove your kid. Thinking of it this way makes the standards for caring for children very low. CPS sometimes allows opioid addicts to keep their children and teaches the kids to use narcan. We need higher standards.


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## dicapr

Ms. Tarabotti said:


> I'm just wondering why children become messed up if the mother isn't 'there' but no one says boo if the father isn't around because he is 'working'. Is it because it fits into the mother as nurturer, father as provider roles?  Why is okay for the father to miss the school plays and the birthday parties but the mom is treated like dirt when she does?
> 
> Today's parents want to give their children the best of everything and that costs money. If you have a high paying job, chances are you'll be working long hours and times when you would rather be doing something else ( because of the poor work- life balance in this country). There are going to be times when you have to miss the school play or the occasional birthday party. There are times that the father of the child can and should be there for the child.
> 
> Each family has to figure out this balancing act of work and family for themselves- what works for my family might not work for yours. I'm not going to declare the women in the article a bad mother because she made different choices than I might have. There are enough people pointing at mothers and saying that 'you aren't doing it right' and I won't add extra guilt on a mother..
> 
> Do what you think is best for you and yours.



I get what you are saying but that is not what the author of the article was talking about. She admitted that their are times she misses events in her children’s lives not because she has to for job security but because she loves what she does, is highly competitive, and wanted to win. Not the same scenario you are talking about.  Not saying she is right or wrong. Just saying she isn’t talking about making choices based on finances.

For example my dad was in the military. He often had to work long hours, be gone for months even up to a year. It  came along with putting food on the table. However, when he was offered an opportunity to become an officer he turned it down. He felt he was already away from his wife and family too much. On one hand he did what he had to do to put food on the table. But then again he also acknowledged that he was not willing to trade what family time he had for career advancement. Men do make the decision to put career on hold every day for family.


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## Everything Zen

^^^ Women will still always pay a higher price career wise when they do that. Men are praised for being family oriented and the “solutions” that some of these companies are coming up with are just ridiculous. 

https://www.girlboss.com/work/2018-3-21-workplace-programs-egg-freezing


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## LeftRightRepeat

I think that anybody who takes a step back because of their family will be penalized.

 The woman in  the OP is divorced and has to work.  Some seem to be taking issue with the fact that her husband has  to step up and also parent. The irony is that the dad would probably do less parenting if they were still married.

It  also doesn't seem right  that she is a mother who likes her job and is ambitious; despite the fact that she mentions that there are times when she prioritizes her children over her job and also that her husband and mother are there to take care of the kids, and they are not being neglected.

As someone who spent 3 months out of the year with my grandparents, I think  all this talk of neglect is a bit dramatic.

eta:  my niece also grew up spending every summer with her grandparents.  She is a teenager now and she and her mom are very close  (i.e. attached)


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## ThirdEyeBeauty

Theresamonet said:


> I’ve been binge watching Intervention and there are a lot of crack/heroin/opioid/meth addicts with these types of parents. She said she has to teach, write, and litigate or she’ll feel empty, but I’m sure her kids feel empty without their mother. The message she is sending them is that they aren’t important. But I guess all that matters is that their existence gives her life some meaning. She’s one selfish lady.


Just to play devil's advocate, there are many parents who are around their children constantly who most likely don't do half for their children as this woman.


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## ThirdEyeBeauty

dicapr said:


> I wonder if the reason her justification is acceptable is because her job is important. What if she was a manager at grocery store?  Would her justifications still work?
> 
> To me the real issue is that to get ahead at work you have to basically give up your life outside of work. She really shouldn’t have to choose between being present in her life and advancement in her career. As for the choices she made if she is at peace there is nothing more to say.


But there are store managers doing far less for their children than the woman in the OP.  It depends on how you define the job of a parent.  If it means to be an active presence  in their life majority of their time and to make every event of the child then she may not be doing so well.  However is the stay-at-home mother doing well if she is present at every event of the child but the child's life does not contain a rich assortment of events as the mother in the OP? Personally, I would have to observe the child's behavior and feelings to determine how things really  are in either case.  I know too many fathers who are doing way more work, travel, and less involvement with the children but I know fatherhood is seen completely different and sometimes that type of behavior is expected of them.  

I see parents wanting children to excel and be the best they can with busy careers but the parent does not what the same for themselves.  I don't  know what they hope for the child as an adult.  The point is just to procreate and stop living a life you found fulfilling.


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## ThirdEyeBeauty

dicapr said:


> If someone adopted a dog and explained that they just didn’t not have the time to adequately take care of it would give most people pause. We definitely would question their decision to get a second pet if their job/social life was not conducive to caring for the pet or that for long chunks of time the dog was boarded and cared for by someone else.


But you assume the dog would not be taken care of and boarded up. Yes the dog may be with someone else often but the dog may be living in such a rich assortment of fun and training than the dog whose owner is on the couch while it is in a crate.


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## dicapr

ThirdEyeBeauty said:


> But you assume the dog would not be taken care of and boarded up. Yes the dog may be with someone else often but the dog may be living in such a rich assortment of fun and training than the dog whose owner is on the couch while it is in a crate.




The point isn’t whether or not they are being taken care of. The question is why you would go through the motions of getting something that needs your care if you know you are not capable of giving it the care it needs. Contrary to popular belief providing material things and experiences isn’t the same as providing care.


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## Theresamonet

ThirdEyeBeauty said:


> Just to play devil's advocate, there are many parents who are around their children constantly who most likely don't do half for their children as this woman.



What does that matter to the kids? They don’t get to live two different experiences to compare. My father wasn’t around for me when I was a kid. But he paid a sizable amount of child support and other expenses. The fact that a lot of men don’t pay a dime for their kids or, that some girls are even beaten and molested by their fathers, doesn’t absolve mine of the wrong he did by not giving me and my siblings what we needed, as opposed to just what he was obligated to provide. I understand as an adult that there is always someone worse off than you are. But that’s not often insight that children have, and even if they did, simply knowing things could be worse isn’t always as soothing as one would imagine.


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## ThirdEyeBeauty

dicapr said:


> The point isn’t whether or not they are being taken care of. The question is why you would go through the motions of getting something that needs your care if you know you are not capable of giving it the care it needs. Contrary to popular belief providing material things and experiences isn’t the same as providing care.


Define what is a reasonable time for you.


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## ThirdEyeBeauty

Theresamonet said:


> What does that matter to the kids? They don’t get to live two different experiences to compare. My father wasn’t around for me when I was a kid. But he paid a sizable amount of child support and other expenses. The fact that a lot of men don’t pay a dime for their kids or, that some girls are even beaten and molested by their fathers, doesn’t absolve mine of the wrong he did by not giving me and my siblings what we needed, as opposed to just what he was obligated to provide. I understand as an adult that there is always someone worse off than you are. But that’s not often insight that children have, and even if they did, simply knowing things could be worse isn’t always as soothing as one would imagine.


Define what is good enough for you.


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## Theresamonet

ThirdEyeBeauty said:


> Define what is good enough for you.



No.


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## ThirdEyeBeauty

Theresamonet said:


> No.


Are you ok?

Not sure if you read the article because I am going by some assumptions in that post. Not the scenario you presented.  

No worries we don't  have to go any further.  I love talking about different scenarios but I  never want anyone to feel personally upset.


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## JudithO

LeftRightRepeat said:


> Her children are not being neglected.  She has an equal co-parent in their father.
> 
> Believe it or not, even the manager of the local grocery store has to prioritize her job over her children sometimes, if she wants to keep her job e.g. she has to work Saturdays and their dad or grandmother has to take them to soccer or birthday parties .
> 
> I don't see the issue.  She's not saying that she doesn't want to be a mother or hates her children.



Yep... will she have the closest relationship with her kids as adults, maybe not but there are many ‘present’ parents who cause much more harm. I have a pretty crazy work life but choose to prioritize my family because I simply enjoy them more than my work... if the reverse was true, I’d work more and my kid would survive.


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## BonBon

Not all children are the same in personality. I especially feel in my background (Caribbean) being an introverted/sensitive type as a child is frowned upon. You're not allowed to be affected by anything. Naturally when these conversations come up only the people who coped amazingly and adapted easily as a child will shout about it and try to shame anyone who felt different. Plenty of people I meet were mildly to majorly affected by the choices their parents made when they were a child and thats OK. Plenty of parents feel like they made the best decision given the circumstances and thats OK too.

We can't say the children will be fine. Sometimes they will be and sometimes they wont be. It really depeneds.


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## awhyley

BonBon said:


> Not all children are the same in personality. I especially feel in my background (Caribbean) being an introverted/sensitive type as a child is frowned upon. You're not allowed to be affected by anything. *Naturally when these conversations come up only the people who coped amazingly and adapted easily as a child will shout about it and try to shame anyone who felt different. *Plenty of people I meet were mildly to majorly affected by the choices their parents made when they were a child and thats OK. Plenty of parents feel like they made the best decision given the circumstances and thats OK too.
> 
> We can't say the children will be fine. Sometimes they will be and sometimes they wont be. It really depeneds.



As an introverted Caribbean child, I can definitely concur.  If I tell you how many times I've heard, "I went through such and such as a child or this thing happened to me when I was little, _but I didn't die_" and I'm like, wtf?, what is that supposed to mean?  Because you didn't die, you're ok then?  There are so many train wrecks walking around here because they refuse to accept that they were hurt/affected in childhood and in need of healing.


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## LeftRightRepeat

I was an introverted Caribbean child too but nvm to the rest of what i was going to say  << delete personal business>>>


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## ThirdEyeBeauty

BonBon said:


> Not all children are the same in personality. I especially feel in my background (Caribbean) being an introverted/sensitive type as a child is frowned upon. You're not allowed to be affected by anything. Naturally when these conversations come up only the people who coped amazingly and adapted easily as a child will shout about it and try to shame anyone who felt different. Plenty of people I meet were mildly to majorly affected by the choices their parents made when they were a child and thats OK. Plenty of parents feel like they made the best decision given the circumstances and thats OK too.
> 
> We can't say the children will be fine. Sometimes they will be and sometimes they wont be. It really depeneds.





awhyley said:


> As an introverted Caribbean child, I can definitely concur.  If I tell you how many times I've heard, "I went through such and such as a child or this thing happened to me when I was little, _but I didn't die_" and I'm like, wtf?, what is that supposed to mean?  Because you didn't die, you're ok then?  There are so many train wrecks walking around here because they refuse to accept that they were hurt/affected in childhood and in need of healing.


We would have to ask the children how they felt about their parents and life growing up. My point is that it all depends and just because the parent is present all the time and possibly home schooling the child does not mean the children would agree they felt well rounded.  It all depends both ways.  The feedback is important.


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## Maracujá

Lylddlebit said:


> *For the record I would quit my job today if I believed it would negatively impact my personal life. It's just a job to me no matter how good I am at it.  I work only so I can enjoy the things I enjoy when I am not working and that is the only reason why I work. I want to be my daughter's  mother and my husband's wife for the rest of my life but that is based on how I have invested in and built my home life. If I hit the lottery tomorrow or got a good settlement I would stop working and monetize a hobby.   It's a good idea for people to be honest with themselves for how they invest in and build up their own personal lives. Not for judgment, moreso, that others don't feel negatively impacted by you just being yourself. *



You and I are >< here! I've learned to keep this thought to myself though, I had no idea so many people enjoyed working so much . To each their own .


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## ThirdEyeBeauty

Maracujá said:


> You and I are >< here! I've learned to keep this thought to myself though, I had no idea so many people enjoyed working so much . To each their own .


Why do you feel you would have to keep your own beliefs on how you want to live your life to yourself?  Do you feel people will come to you with little support just like the woman in the OP had she been a member of this forum?


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## Maracujá

ThirdEyeBeauty said:


> Why do you feel you would have to keep your own beliefs on how you want to live your life to yourself?  Do you feel people will come to you with little support just like the woman in the OP had she been a member of this forum?



Pretty much yes. I have outlandish beliefs half of the time, often times, when I present them here, I can always find some people that are on board with it. But IRL? Not so much really. 

My same friend, who has decided to breastfeed her second, lives in a huge mansion. She had the opportunity to start a small beauty salon, using natural products in her home. This would have provided her with more independence, in terms of scheduling her daily routines and in turn would've given her more time with her babies. 

When she presented the idea to me, I encouraged her to go through with it. Truthfully speaking, had she been an American woman, she would've gone through with it. But it's just not ingrained here in Europe to manage your own time. So she has now chosen to work for an employer that gives her great hours, but is still pretty far away from home. 

Having lived in Angola and interacted with you ladies on this board, I feel like the wealth of time is placed high up on our list. But not so much here in Belgium, you'll be quick to be labeled as 'lazy' or some other derogative term for not choosing to work full time *shrug*.


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## ThirdEyeBeauty

^^^wow I appreciate the perspective. Europe makes it seems that work environment is great there compared to the USA and that may be true in some places.  It sounds like they give good benefits and more time off but expect you to work away from home.  People with ideas to work from home would be seen as lazy in some cases.


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## Maracujá

ThirdEyeBeauty said:


> ^^^wow I appreciate the perspective. Europe makes it seems that work environment is great there compared to the USA and that may be true in some places.  It sounds like they give good benefits and more time off but expect you to work away from home.  People with ideas to work from home would be seen as lazy in some cases.



Pretty much. So yes, a full time job here is an average of 36h or 38h per week, as oppose to 40h or more. However, wages are lower than in the US. So most people get a side hustle. This side hustle is not always passive: a guy I worked with at Ikea, worked 36h/week at Ikea, he had a pretty good position. But also worked for 12 years at a restaurant, during the weekends. I was flabbergasted when I found out. 

They do all this to secure their retirement, but at what cost? Most people end up with a bunch of ailments in their latter days, because they overworked themselves to begin with. I am speaking out of experience by the way, thankfully, God woke me up with the quickness.


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## NijaG

KimPossibli said:


> *We don't live in a society that values parenting though... not in a tangible way
> 
> if we did there would be more social nets to catch struggling parents... *
> 
> mothers and fathers should get parental leave, and I'm not even talking just post partum
> 
> those are things that lead to the needs that children have being met... and those are the things that allow parents to attend to their children rather than being scared to lose their place in the rat race.. or worse yet... having to earn the money that puts food in the smae childrens bodys...



I think this is one of the major contributing factors, especially in the States and some other places. No social safety nets to truly accommodate the changes for the various modern family/community structures.

Majority of physically capable men and women have always worked throughout history. However, multigenerational and small community living enabled parents to work outside and inside the home without always having to always worry about where to keep and place their children.

Also..... raising children today is vastly different than a few decades ago. The requirements to get children to be fully functional independent adults in today’s society is more costly and burdensome, especially in a society that is determined to recreate historical rigid class system of have and have not’s. 

Women with children (especially young kids) (married/unmarried) in this modern society/family structure have it the worse.

 At the end of the day, I believe a good portion of parents are doing the best they can do. Life is not a bed of roses. Children become adults and will have to figure out what works best for them.


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## Maracujá

NijaG said:


> I think this is one of the major contributing factors, especially in the States and some other places. No social safety nets to truly accommodate the changes for the various modern family/community structures.
> 
> Majority of physically capable men and women have always worked throughout history. However, multigenerational and small community living enabled parents to work outside and inside the home without always having to always worry about where to keep and place their children.
> 
> *Also..... raising children today is vastly different than a few decades ago. The requirements to get children to be fully functional independent adults in today’s society is more costly and burdensome, especially in a society that is determined to recreate historical rigid class system of have and have not’s. *
> 
> Women with children (especially young kids) (married/unmarried) in this modern society/family structure have it the worse.
> 
> At the end of the day, I believe a good portion of parents are doing the best they can do. Life is not a bed of roses. Children become adults and will have to figure out what works best for them.



Your post is on point. So glad you brought up the bolded, because it's what I'm witnessing in my close circle. At first I didn't understand why Oprah and Tyler Perry wanted to make a show called 'The have and the have nots'. As time progresses, I understand why. 

Would you care to elaborate on how the problem might be resolved or how you've dealt with it, if you do have children? TIA for your answer.


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## NijaG

Maracujá said:


> Your post is on point. So glad you brought up the bolded, because it's what I'm witnessing in my close circle. At first I didn't understand why Oprah and Tyler Perry wanted to make a show called 'The have and the have nots'. As time progresses, I understand why.
> 
> Would you care to elaborate on how the problem might be resolved or how you've dealt with it, if you do have children? TIA for your answer.



Some of the macro solutions have been discussed/suggested in various thread. 


In the US (macro level)..... longer parental leave. I mean 12 weeks is nothing. Minimum of 9-12 months for moms and 6months for dad’s. I think there are groups advocating for this already in some form.

This one is harder..... but there has to be some sort of revolution to stop this widening economical gap. It is ridiculous.

On the individual level..... it depends on a person situation, culture, and other factors.  

I’m Nigerian..... so before my mom has her health crisis, she stayed with me and DH for about 6months with my 1st and we stayed with my MIL for about 6mnths also.

I took a lower paying job to have flexible time and also I knew I was going to have my second child wanted the a very flexible schedule without too much worry about taking time off.

I hired a nanny for the 4-5 months after my second baby. I have a cleaner come once a month. My 2nd is almost 2yrs and I just started a new job with standard 8-5pm hrs. I hired a part time nanny to come in the weekday evenings 6-9pm. She helps with the kids, so this enables me to go do my errands, exercise or just relax if needed.

More deliberate thought and preparation before kids. My first I wasn't as prepared but I had my and DH family and extended support to get me through.


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## Maracujá

NijaG said:


> Some of the macro solutions have been discussed/suggested in various thread.
> 
> 
> In the US (macro level)..... longer parental leave. I mean 12 weeks is nothing. Minimum of 9-12 months for moms and 6months for dad’s. I think there are groups advocating for this already in some form.
> 
> This one is harder..... but there has to be some sort of revolution to stop this widening economical gap. It is ridiculous.
> 
> On the individual level..... it depends on a person situation, culture, and other factors.
> 
> I’m Nigerian..... so before my mom has her health crisis, she stayed with me and DH for about 6months with my 1st and we stayed with my MIL for about 6mnths also.
> 
> I took a lower paying job to have flexible time and also I knew I was going to have my second child wanted the a very flexible schedule without too much worry about taking time off.
> 
> I hired a nanny for the 4-5 months after my second baby. I have a cleaner come once a month. My 2nd is almost 2yrs and I just started a new job with standard 8-5pm hrs. I hired a part time nanny to come in the weekday evenings 6-9pm. She helps with the kids, so this enables me to go do my errands, exercise or just relax if needed.
> 
> *More deliberate thought and preparation before kids.* My first I wasn't as prepared but I had my and DH family and extended support to get me through.



You played it smart, then again you are Naija for a reason . I believe the bolded is key at this point, since there's no telling when there will be change at the macro level. Thank you for your answer.


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## greight

I guess I come from a different school of thought. My mom worked 2 to 3 jobs, but I was proud that she worked. I learned how to entertain and motivate myself without her, and performed well in school because I knew the sacrifices she was making.

I don't flinch at all when it comes to the idea of being a working mom. I know I will need help and I'm thinking through how this will work. I do know that my future kids will be fine.


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## NijaG

greight said:


> I guess I come from a different school of thought. My mom worked 2 to 3 jobs, but I was proud that she worked. I learned how to entertain and motivate myself without her, and performed well in school because I knew the sacrifices she was making.
> 
> I don't flinch at all when it comes to the idea of being a working mom. I know I will need help and I'm thinking through how this will work. I do know that my future kids will be fine.



Yeah..,.. I really don’t think being a working mom is the main issue. The issue imo is this expectation that modern parents (especially mom’s) are suppose to be the be all and end all for their children without help. Main source for the foundation of life experiences and values... sure. However, parents are human beings growing and learning and responding to life around them. They are not perfect and are going to mess up.


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## Lady S

I was raised by a single mom.  Thankfully, we had a great support system and daycare that she could afford.  I can say with great confidence, any mental health issues I have are not because of my mom working long hours.  I had a friend whose mom was stay-at-home and my God, that relationship was and still is dysfunctional as hell.  It's not about quantity, it's about quality.  The time I spent with my mom as a kid, were filled with love and emotional support.  But she was also fully present when she was there (or was at least pretty good at faking it, because in retrospect I'm pretty sure as a kid, my thoughts on She-Ra, Princess of Power weren't as interesting as I thought they were )

I don't think the woman who wrote the article is a bad person or deserves to be thrown in Mom-Jail.  She's found a career that is not only well-paying, but also something she enjoys.  It's also a career where it makes total sense why it would be hard to shift gears into mom mode.  They always tell you to not bring work home with you, but that's just not realistic for some jobs.  It's not even about prestige or titles, sometimes it's just the nature of the gig.  Add actually enjoying your job on top of the equation?  It's hard.  

I think it's important for parents too have interests and things that are fulfilling that aren't their kids, because those parents that put their whole entire ego and self-worth on their kids end up doing damage as well.  There's a balance and the challenge is find that balance, being able to prioritize and being able to make that quality time with kids.  I have no clue what the solution is, frankly just thinking about it makes me exhausted and pretty happy with my current designation as The Childless Aunt.


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## Lady S

dancinstallion said:


> I remember a few pro football players saying how they had to go to therapy after retiring because nothing in life brought them that same joy and pleasure as playing in front of a crowd. Having kids and a wife didn't replace that feeling. It just wasn't enough.  Same situation as the OP putting career before their kids.


I think this is a really good comparison.  The author is in a field where in order to be successful, they have to be competitive, they have to be focuses and the stakes are major.  I would like my lawyer to be more concerned about my freedom than their 3rd grader's school play.  And I'm going to bet arguing a case during a trial is probably a little more adrenaline and dopamine producing than arguing with your child about bed time.


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## ThirdEyeBeauty

Lady S said:


> I think this is a really good comparison.  The author is in a field where in order to be successful, they have to be competitive, they have to be focuses and the stakes are major.  I would like my lawyer to be more concerned about my freedom than their 3rd grader's school play.  And I'm going to bet arguing a case during a trial is probably a little more adrenaline and dopamine producing than arguing with your child about bed time.


That's how it is in that field and some are just like the example in the OP.


----------

