# Michael Jackson...and Heaven



## Laela (Jun 30, 2009)

There are reports MJ accepted Jesus just before he died, when Andre Crouch ministered to him.... we will never know until we *know for ourselves*, but I'm hoping for the best..that the king did indeed go to see The King! 

http://www.paulanealmooney.com/mich...esus-and-prayer-3-weeks-before-his-death/838/


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## Nonie (Jun 30, 2009)

That is the media adding salt to the truth again. This is the latest entry on Andre Crouch's Facebook page:



> Andrae' Crouch  FROM SANDRA'S FB PAGE: "It has been brought to my attention that several media outlets have been erroneously reporting that my brother, Andrae Crouch and me met our dear friend Michael Jackson several weeks prior to his death so he could accept Christ. This is incorrect and absolutely not true. We loved and respected Michael enormously and we've been friends with him for many, many years, and are deeply saddened"


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## Nonie (Jun 30, 2009)

But I would not be surprised if Michael is in heaven. As I shared on the ET forum, Michael was very loving, very giving, very humble...reaching out to the poor, and the sick, etc. And if we look to the Word, this is what Jesus said:



> 31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
> 
> 34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
> 
> ...


Matthew 25:31-46

Jesus also said:


> 1Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2and he began to teach them saying:
> 3"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
> for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
> 4Blessed are those who mourn,
> ...


Matthew 5:1-12

May he find the peace, trust, safety, love, comfort, rest...etc that proved so elusive to him while he was living.


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## saved06 (Jun 30, 2009)

I'm applaud at some of the statements I've read on other "Christian" boards saying they were glad Michael is burning in hell and that he deserved this? I went off on everyone on that board.... Isn't is our job as followers of Christ to intercede and reach out in LOVE, it doesn't matter if you are famous or not. Let's not forget the thief on the cross. Michael could be chilling in heaven now we do not know. It just rubbed me the wrong way how so called "Christians" were praising his death. Every since then I no longer call myself a "Christian" because that word is now synomous(sp?) with hypocrites. I like to call myself someone who follows what Christ taught and how he lived.


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## Laela (Jun 30, 2009)

Thanks for posting the FB link... it's still all a bit confusing: Here's the latest from the Dave guy who posts for Andrae's fan page:

_*Andrae' Crouch Sorry for the confusing previous THREE POSTS from Sandra's FB page... I will try again to put her comments in ONE POST for clarity. It should be noted that their stories do not contradict each other, in my opinion. Andrae' simply gives alot MORE DETAIL of what happened. than Sandra'. (Dave)*_

*At issue is WHY they went to see Michael, not that they didn't go see him*. From reading the Crouches' posts, it was a visit to create music together. Still, they ministered to him while they were there..praying and singing and talking about the annointing of the Holy Spirit. They insist that there was no "sinners prayer" per se, which then make reports that they went to see him to get him saved erroneous.

*Nonetheless, I do sincerely hope he is in Heaven, which is why I posted this.* 




Nonie said:


> That is the media adding salt to the truth again. This is the latest entry on Andre Crouch's Facebook page:


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## Laela (Jun 30, 2009)

If we could go to heaven simply for "doing good" we'd all make it to heaven. 


Jesus is the only way to heaven....  one becomes righteous by accepting Jesus. To do good but not believe in Jesus or God is in vain. This Scripture is referrencing where God separates the sheep from the goat. The righteous  are at his right hand. This is also proof that not everyone who says Lord Lord will make it to Heaven, for they will cast out demons, pray to heal others, etc, but have no Love in their hearts, i.e., not caring for the poor or doing good IN ADDITION to being righteous.

Reading in context is vital to the quest in understanding God's Word.
Sometimes I read out of context, asw well... 

God Bless you.



Nonie said:


> But I would not be surprised if Michael is in heaven. As I shared on the ET forum, Michael was very loving, very giving, very humble...reaching out to the poor, and the sick, etc. And if we look to the Word, this is what Jesus said:
> 
> Matthew 25:31-46
> 
> ...


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## Laela (Jun 30, 2009)

I'm truly sad to hear you feel that way... CHRIST is the first part of Christian; I won't let anyone's actions/inactions determine how I feel about who I am and whose I am.

God Bless you.




saved06 said:


> I'm applaud at some of the statements I've read on other "Christian" boards saying they were glad Michael is burning in hell and that he deserved this? I went off on everyone on that board.... Isn't is our job as followers of Christ to intercede and reach out in LOVE, it doesn't matter if you are famous or not. Let's not forget the thief on the cross. Michael could be chilling in heaven now we do not know. It just rubbed me the wrong way how so called "Christians" were praising his death. Every since then I no longer call myself a "Christian" because that word is now synomous(sp?) with hypocrites. I like to call myself someone who follows what Christ taught and how he lived.


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## saved06 (Jun 30, 2009)

Laela said:


> I'm truly sad to hear you feel that way... CHRIST is the first part of Christian; I won't let anyone's actions/inactions determine how I feel about who I am and whose I am.
> 
> God Bless you.


 
No, I love Christ. When I minister to people I want them to know there is a difference between labeling yourself as something versus living it.


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## **Tasha*Love** (Jun 30, 2009)

I understand what you are saying Laela but I don't think Saved is denying her saviour by dropping the word Christian.  I have spoken to so many people that don't want anything to do with the church or Christianity because of some of the holier-than-thou Christians that they have encountered.  As she stated the word Christian has become synonymous with hypocrite and its really sad.  Nothing in her post leads me to believe that she is denying Christ at all.  



Laela said:


> I'm truly sad to hear you feel that way... CHRIST is the first part of Christian; I won't let anyone's actions/inactions determine how I feel about who I am and whose I am.
> 
> God Bless you.


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## Laela (Jun 30, 2009)

Saved, my response was from a personal perspective. I'm familiar with your posts and I dare not say you are not saved.. LOL.. Misunderstanding. I'm just defending my right to call myself a CHRISTian, despite the labelling or negative connotations attached. We all have to stand accounted one day, no matter what we call ourselves... that's is all I am saying.

Stay Blessed! 



saved06 said:


> No, I love Christ. When I minister to people I want them to know there is a difference between labeling yourself as something versus living it.


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## saved06 (Jun 30, 2009)

Laela said:


> Saved, my response was from a personal perspective. I'm familiar with your posts and I dare not say you are not saved.. LOL.. Misunderstanding. I'm just defending my right to call myself a CHRISTian, despite the labelling or negative connotations attached. We all have to stand accounted one day, no matter what we call ourselves... that's is all I am saying.
> 
> Stay Blessed!


 Thanks I see what you are saying. Matthew Chapter 7


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## Nonie (Jul 1, 2009)

Laela said:


> If we could go to heaven simply for "doing good" we'd all make it to heaven.
> 
> 
> Jesus is the only way to heaven....  one becomes righteous by accepting Jesus. To do good but not believe in Jesus or God is in vain. This Scripture is referrencing where God separates the sheep from the goat. The righteous  are at his right hand. This is also proof that not everyone who says Lord Lord will make it to Heaven, for they will cast out demons, pray to heal others, etc, but have no Love in their hearts, i.e., not caring for the poor or doing good IN ADDITION to being righteous.
> ...



I actually read it in context, which is why I very rarely just quote a verse, but rather quote as much of the chapter as will reveal the context in which the message was used. The point Jesus was making was his sheep, those that will not be cast in hell, will be those who echoed his life on earth. He was as clear as can be, and I don't think there's any way to misunderstand what he meant. He was saying one way he will purge his church of the hypocrites will be by looking at the fruits of those who claim to belong and only those who followed in His footsteps will make it to heaven.

Our definition of "accepting Jesus" may not be God's definition. I am sure there are people that died during Jesus time here on earth, who learned from Him what they needed to go to Heaven. They "sold all they had and followed him" and never got to hear the message about being saved that was written about later on in Romans (“If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved” Romans 10:9), nor would it make sense to them if they'd heard it because Jesus hadn't died at the time they were living and hearing him. Also, it seems like the modern church has come up with this "model prayer" that one must say to be "saved", when all it takes is to confess with the mouth the Lord Jesus and believe that God raised Him from the dead. And what does it mean to confess?  One definition of "confess" is "to declare faith in or adherence to". And you are to do this with your mouth. Does there have to be an audience? I don't know. I don't see where it says that. 

I have seen "saved" people break the law of God and continue do so. I have seen people who don't mention being saved but they appear to bear fruit that makes one give glory to God just because. Jesus warned us:
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.  21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
(Matthew 7:15-23)​So while I understand the New Testament's post-Jesus teachings about not setting foot in heaven unless one is saved, I think we cannot ignore Jesus' teachings on the matter. A bad tree cannot bear good fruit and a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, "thus by their fruit you will recognize them," Jesus said.


I find it interesting how many times Jesus touched on entering his kingdom:


13People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." 16And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them. (Mark 10:13-16)
​And how would little children receive the kingdom of God? How do children receive anything new you give them. With awe, and wonder, and humility, and excitement, and hunger, and innocence, without suspicion, but rather with faith and trust....

I guess we'll never know whether Michael got saved. But if we are to pay attention to anything Jesus taught, it was that by their fruits we will know those that belong to His flock. That's different from doing good deeds to get a reward or doing good deeds to earn a license to heaven. It is doing good deeds because you cannot help yourself. It just is what comes naturally to you, coz you're that good tree that bears nothing else but good fruit. When people say, "If I could go to heaven by doing good" w/r/t that verse, they totally miss the point Jesus was trying to make. Using cause and effect: The cause in Jesus example is not a desire to go to heaven so you do good (the effect)--which is what that remark is saying. The cause in Jesus example is our good hearts that cannot help but bear good fruit (effect).

So *shrug* while I may never know what Michael confessed with his mouth or whether he believed God raised Jesus from the dead, I saw him bear a lot of good fruit.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Jul 1, 2009)

saved06 said:


> I'm applaud at some of the statements I've read on other "Christian" boards saying they were glad Michael is burning in hell and that he deserved this? I went off on everyone on that board.... Isn't is our job as followers of Christ to intercede and reach out in LOVE, it doesn't matter if you are famous or not. Let's not forget the thief on the cross. Michael could be chilling in heaven now we do not know. It just rubbed me the wrong way how so called "Christians" were praising his death. Every since then I no longer call myself a "Christian" because that word is now synomous(sp?) with hypocrites. I like to call myself someone who follows what Christ taught and how he lived.



According to some reports, they don't truly know if he did those appauling things or not.  Who are they to judge anyway?  Thanks for your posts, you and Nonie!!!  G-d is the ultimate Judge and who knows if He presents Himself personally to each and every person?  We don't know.  What I do know?  People who aren't christian do go to heaven.  It's how you live.  Let Jesus work out the final details...,let's us live righteously without judgments.


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## moonglowdiva (Jul 1, 2009)

*IDK but when I initially heard the reports that MJ had crossed over I wondered and hope that he had gotten himself right with his Savior. They say that in his youth he was raise JW. I hope that he at some point accepted Jesus in his heart and Lord and Savior of his life.*


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## moonglowdiva (Jul 1, 2009)

*Let us not pass judgement on the dearly departed it is not our place. Pray for his family. That is the right thing to do.*


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## divya (Jul 1, 2009)

Only God knows the heart. My hope is that He was right with the Lord. Honestly, something about him and his story really was heartbreaking to me. But thankfully, God is just. Whatever his fate, it will be fair.


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## Laela (Jul 1, 2009)

Nonie said:


> Our definition of "accepting Jesus" may not be God's definition.



Well, let me quote Jesus on this one:

*John 14:16*
_Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me._

It doesn't matter how "good" a person is, if Jesus isn't Lord of their life, they CAN'T go to Heaven to meet his Father. I didn't say Michael Jackson. You quoted a Scripture and I expounded on it.




Nonie said:


> I have seen "saved" people break the law of God and continue do so. I have seen people who don't mention being saved but they appear to bear fruit that makes one give glory to God just because. Jesus warned us:
> 15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
> (Matthew 7:15-23)



I knew that was coming..  but guess what? Saved people CAN make mistakes and CAN sin but what separates them from sinners is they know to quickly repent because they have a personal relationship with God and will be admonished by the Spirit. A sinner wouldn't repent but keep sinning. He who is without sin has already given his life for us, so we don't HAVE to sin; but we still are flesh. It's a lifetime commitment to live for God.

A saved person who prays and ask the Holy Spirit for guidance, or listens to God, _will develop a discerning spirit._





Nonie said:


> So *shrug* while I may never know what Michael confessed with his mouth or whether he believed God raised Jesus from the dead...



That's what I intimated in my initial post... this is why I was careful to say we'll never know except for ourselves.. i.e., in the afterlife. 

How this is passing judgment is beyond me, becuase you are now saying the same thing.   I don't know if Michael is saved or not, either. 

You posted Scripture and I expounded on it.


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## Laela (Jul 1, 2009)

Yes, let's do that.. ITA 





GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> let's us live righteously without judgments.


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## NinasLongAmbition (Jul 2, 2009)

I pray he did but didnt he convert to Islam??


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## Laela (Jul 2, 2009)

Michael Jackson aside: There are times where Believers must stand for Truth (the Word), which may offend others.  God is Black and White, no gray. He despises friends of the World, for they are hostile toward him. We are either for him or for Satan. It's that simple.

I will continue to stand for the truth, for Jesus..and I know he will see it.  

*James 4:4*
_You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God._

*Matthew  13:57 *
_And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown and in his own house is a prophet without honor."_

*Revelation 3:16*
_So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. _


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## divya (Jul 2, 2009)

Laela and Nonie - good discussion. 

I agree with so much of what both of you have written. Suppose one day we will find whether or not MJ was saved. It's true that Jesus is the only way.  But I do believe that the exposure that people have differs and because God is just, He will take our whole lives into account. We have to live up to the Light that we have. If the exposure to the Light (Jesus) we have is a little, then we will be required to have accepted that. If that Light is plenty, then plenty will be required of us. 

Romans seems to touch on this issue...
______________________

*Romans 2:11-15* - _For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;_ 
_______________________________________

So from these verses, it does appear that even some who may not have the same exposure to gospel truth will make it to heaven because they live up to the little Light they have. Their actions show that God's Word is in their hearts as God speaks to us through our conscience. Their willingness to heed Him will be accepted. 

Where does Michael fall? Only the Lord Himself knows. I hope that did live up to whatever Light he had.


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## Laela (Jul 2, 2009)

Good points... 

Everything we do in our lives, we will have to answer to God, not man: 
*2 Corinth 5:10*
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things *done in the body*, according to what He has done, whether good or bad.


and everyone will be rewarded for their works on Earth,
*1 Corinth 3:8-9*
The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.

and receive their crowns and rewards. 


I'm trying my best to live so I don't have to tell God... "_See, what had happened was_... " lol





divya said:


> I agree with so much of what both of you have written. Suppose one day we will find whether or not MJ was saved. It's true that Jesus is the only way.  But I do believe that the exposure that people have differs and because God is just, *He will take our whole lives into account.* We have to live up to the Light that we have. If the exposure to the Light (Jesus) we have is a little, then we will be required to have accepted that. If that Light is plenty, then plenty will be required of us.
> 
> Romans seems to touch on this issue...
> ______________________
> ...


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## chicacanella (Jul 2, 2009)

saved06 said:


> I'm applaud at some of the statements I've read on other "Christian" boards saying they were glad Michael is burning in hell and that he deserved this? I went off on everyone on that board.... Isn't is our job as followers of Christ to intercede and reach out in LOVE, it doesn't matter if you are famous or not. Let's not forget the thief on the cross. Michael could be chilling in heaven now we do not know. It just rubbed me the wrong way how so called "Christians" were praising his death. Every since then I no longer call myself a "Christian" because that word is now synomous(sp?) with hypocrites. I like to call myself someone who follows what Christ taught and how he lived.


 
*What! Are you serious? Please tell me this isn't true. How disheartening to want to see another human being, a soul in hell being toutured for all eternity. I wouldn't wish it on my worst human enemy. *

*I actually found myself pleading with God for mercy in the name of Jesus Christ on Michael's behalf. *

*God actually led me to pray for Farrah Fawcet two days before she died. He's actually been telling me to pray for months now but I don't think I did what I could have. I mean real, long travailing pulling at the heart of God prayer.  I keep forgetting that God has given me the gift of prophecy and when he tells me to pray for someone, I better do it because it might just be that one prayer that turns things around.*

*God gave me a dream about my God brother and it happend about a month later and I did not pray. I should've but I didn't cause I didn't know but I will try to do better.*


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## NinasLongAmbition (Jul 2, 2009)

chicacanella said:


> *What! Are you serious? Please tell me this isn't true. How disheartening to want to see another human being, a soul in hell being toutured for all eternity. I wouldn't wish it on my worst human enemy. *
> 
> *I actually found myself pleading with God for mercy in the name of Jesus Christ on Michael's behalf. *
> 
> ...


 So is Michael in heaven?


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## Crown (Jul 2, 2009)

> So is Michael in heaven?


Believe it or not, but :

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Michael Jackson is dead. Not in heaven, not in fire, just dead!

In the second coming of the Lord Jesus-Christ, we will know.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Jul 2, 2009)

Is Michael in heaven?  Ask G-d and I bet I'll know what the answer will be...


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## NinasLongAmbition (Jul 2, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Is Michael in heaven? Ask G-d and I bet I'll know what the answer will be...


 I'm asking HIM no answers yet, what do you think it'll be?


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## Misshairdiva (Jul 2, 2009)

*Crown*

I do not believe that Michael Jackson is just in the ground. No heaven or hell, now that is not even scriptural! He is not in some kind of pergatory, he is either with The King or with The Deciever.


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## Misshairdiva (Jul 2, 2009)

I would not wanted to have been one of the riches men in the world and one of the most famous. To have to stand before God and answer when he asks what have you done for me in your life? 
His fame and fortune means nothing to God. He will not be the most famous man in heaven. 
We are put here on earth for a very short amount of time. What we do on earth will dictate how you spend the rest of your eternity. Alot of people forget WHY we are here. To do the will of God. To win souls to the Lord, and everything else is secondary.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Jul 3, 2009)

NinasLongAmbition said:


> I'm asking HIM no answers yet, what do you think it'll be?




"Get your own life in order and stop worrying about MY business with My son, MIchael."  Sorry to be so harsh...but I fail to see the obsession in some christian circles with speculation on who's done gone to heaven and who ain't.  I mean, if one were worried about someone, shouldn't they have prayed for that person in private, just them and G-d, about that person during his/her lifetime?  What can be done about it now?  After the fact just seems so judgmental and disingenuous (not you per se, but in general with the whole christian community who's bothered by this).  I'm just saying...

Pray for the living and pray for the souls in purgatory (cleansing from unconfessed venial sins that do not separate man from G-d eternally) that their time is short there so they can be fully united.  G-d knows, we'll all face the Judgment one day.  Maybe closer to that time, we won't be so uppity about who we think is "saved" and who is not because we'll be more concerned about what we do and what we do not do. (again not you...but in general with this discussion happening all over the world).  This particular thing is one reason I don't want anything to do with certain sects.  They fail to see that bible-beating and misinterpreting scripture isn't helping anybody, esp. them.


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## divya (Jul 3, 2009)

Crown said:


> Believe it or not, but :
> 
> John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
> 
> ...



Exactly.



Misshairdiva said:


> *Crown*
> 
> I do not believe that Michael Jackson is just in the ground. No heaven or hell, now that is not even scriptural! He is not in some kind of pergatory, he is either with The King or with The Deciever.



Crown did not state that there was no heaven or hell. She stated that he is just dead and at the second coming, we will know. There is a huge difference. Look up the Greek translation of _hell/hades_ in the New Testament (or _sheol_ in the Old Testament and in the majority of instances, it translates to "the grave."


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## Crown (Jul 3, 2009)

divya said:


> Exactly.
> 
> 
> 
> Crown did not state that there was no heaven or hell. She stated that he is just dead and at the second coming, we will know. There is a huge difference. Look up the Greek translation of _hell/hades_ in the New Testament (or _sheol_ in the Old Testament and in the majority of instances, it translates to "the grave."



Thanks Divya!
And I don't know why people have to worry about people after death.
Before death : pray for us, be a model of Christ, help if you can.
After death is the business of GOD, only HIM.


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## Nonie (Jul 3, 2009)

Laela said:


> *How this is passing judgment is beyond me, becuase you are now saying the same thing.*   I don't know if Michael is saved or not, either.



Did I accuse you of passing judgment? I beg your pardon if I did. I only meant to share what I believed and you shared what you believed.  You dismissed good works as being necessary to enter heaven and I just pointed out that Jesus didn't think so lightly of them and in fact talked of them as much as he talked of going to the Father through Him. 

And just to clarify what I meant by "accepting Jesus" in God's definition being different from ours is that I can't count the number of people I hear inviting people to get saved and giving them this model prayer to say.  Or they make them raise hands in church and come forward for that prayer to be said for them. It just seems that unless it's that particular way or showy for some, then it isn't really being saved. My point was that how one accepts Jesus is not something that should concern us or that cut and dry. Of course the way to the Father is through Jesus otherwise what exactly would "accepting Jesus" mean if not pledging allegiance to Him? 

Incidentally, Crown, thanks for reminding us that it is at the resurrection of the dead that anyone shall go to heaven:



> 1"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God[a]; trust also in me. 2In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going."


 (John 14:1-4)



> 13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.


 (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)



> 11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


 (Revelation 20:11-15)


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Jul 3, 2009)

Quote:
 	 	 		 11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.  	 	 

 (Revelation 20:11-15)[/quote]


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## **Tasha*Love** (Jul 3, 2009)

Crown I had to give you an extra "THANK YOU"!!!! I love your last sentence - *After death is the business of GOD, only HIM.* [/





Crown said:


> Thanks Divya!
> And I don't know why people have to worry about people after death.
> Before death : pray for us, be a model of Christ, help if you can.
> After death is the business of GOD, only HIM.


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## Laela (Jul 3, 2009)

And what's so wrong with discussing death and the afterlife? That's part of the Word, just like any other subject in the Bible, in our quest to understand. We all know that God will be the one to judge...  


But I do agree with you that our concern is our lives while we're living.... prayer is needed for us all indeed.



Crown said:


> Thanks Divya!
> And I don't know why people have to worry about people after death.
> Before death : pray for us, be a model of Christ, help if you can.
> After death is the business of GOD, only HIM.


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## Laela (Jul 3, 2009)

Nonie, naww..forgive me for that. I just read other posts about passing judgment, etc and addressed it in my post to you.

This thread is evoking the perception of passing judgment and I don't agree.

I don't agree with you, Crown and divya about what happens to the spirit after death. I've had the discussion before, and I won't go into it again. But I do believe that a person who is absent in this world (DEAD) is present with the Lord (the spirit will be with God, and when God resurrects the dead is when the righteous will get their NEW, Incorruptible bodies).

This where we will disagree and I'm leaving it there. We all are trying to understand God in our own way. 

As for accepting Jesus.. I agree on your points. I don't see where in my posts that HOW it is done is important..??? It doesn't have to be "showy" but can be simple, with no one around. So long as a person believes in their heart AND SAY with their mouths that they accept Jesus, they are saved. Period.





Nonie said:


> Did I accuse you of passing judgment? I beg your pardon if I did. I only meant to share what I believed and you shared what you believed.  You dismissed good works as being necessary to enter heaven and I just pointed out that Jesus didn't think so lightly of them and in fact talked of them as much as he talked of going to the Father through Him.
> 
> And just to clarify what I meant by "accepting Jesus" in God's definition being different from ours is that I can't count the number of people I hear inviting people to get saved and giving them this model prayer to say.  Or they make them raise hands in church and come forward for that prayer to be said for them. It just seems that unless it's that particular way or showy for some, then it isn't really being saved. My point was that how one accepts Jesus is not something that should concern us or that cut and dry. Of course the way to the Father is through Jesus otherwise what exactly would "accepting Jesus" mean if not pledging allegiance to Him?
> 
> ...


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## Nonie (Jul 3, 2009)

Laela said:


> Nonie, naww..forgive me for that. I just read other posts about passing judgment, etc and addressed it in my post to you.
> 
> This thread is evoking the perception of passing judgment and I don't agree.
> 
> ...



I don't know what happens to the spirit at death and didn't talk about that. I have heard people say "the spirit is present with the Lord at death" (even the sinful spirit?) but I'm not sure where that comes from but I will admit that even I have thought it to be so. Crown's post did get me wondering though where that thought came from? I know before Jesus died on the cross he told one of the robbers that he would be with Him in paradise that day. Is that where it came from?  What I do know is what the Bible says that our bodies will be changed to spirit when Jesus returns. 



> 35But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.  42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
> If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: *"The first man Adam became a living being"[e]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.* 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we[f] bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
> 50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: *We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. *53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."[g]
> 55"Where, O death, is your victory?
> ...


(1 Corinthians 15:35-58)


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## Crown (Jul 3, 2009)

Laela said:


> *And what's so wrong with discussing death and the afterlife?* That's part of the Word, just like any other subject in the Bible, in our quest to understand. We all know that God will be the one to judge...
> 
> 
> But I do agree with you that our concern is our lives while we're living.... prayer is needed for us all indeed.



Nothing!
But, who will be in heaven (or in hell)? I don't think so. 

Let's focus on this :
Tim 4 : 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

Maybe, you are right : it's a personal choice to discuss on this or not. Sorry!


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## angelstrawberry (Jul 7, 2009)

Michael is dead awaiting to be judged if he is worthy of a resurrection to paradise on earth


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## music-bnatural-smile (Jul 7, 2009)

how could we ever know...
but we do know that all of his good works were from THE ONE...


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