# Question / Discussion on the Book of Ester



## PinkPebbles (Feb 12, 2010)

In the book of Ester some passages in chapter One stood out to me which caused my eyebrow to raise and would like to have a discussion.

The King, Nobles, and Eunuchs felt as though Queen Vashti behaved disrespectfully towards her husband who was the King and their guests when she refused the King's command.

*10* On the seventh day, when King Xerxes was in high spirits from wine, he commanded the seven eunuchs who served him—Mehuman, Biztha, Harbona, Bigtha, Abagtha, Zethar and Carcas- *11* to bring before him Queen Vashti, wearing her royal crown, in order to display her beauty to the people and nobles, for she was lovely to look at. *12* But when the attendants delivered the king's command, Queen Vashti refused to come. Then the king became furious and burned with anger.

As a result, Queen Vashti was made an example to other women. The King divorced her.

*15* "According to law, what must be done to Queen Vashti?" he asked. "She has not obeyed the command of King Xerxes that the eunuchs have taken to her." 


*16* Then Memucan replied in the presence of the king and the nobles, "Queen Vashti has done wrong, not only against the king but also against all the nobles and the peoples of all the provinces of King Xerxes. *17* For the queen's conduct will become known to all the women, and so they will despise their husbands and say, 'King Xerxes commanded Queen Vashti to be brought before him, but she would not come.' *18* This very day the Persian and Median women of the nobility who have heard about the queen's conduct will respond to all the king's nobles in the same way. There will be no end of disrespect and discord. 

My question - Do you think Queen Vashti was disrespectful to her husband, the King by refusing his request?

In what ways are women and married women disrespectful to their husband or any man without realizing it?

Do you think many of this is learned behavior?

One thing comes to mind. In Corporate America I'm assertive, aggressive, and takes the initiative on projects. My conduct is rewarded and praised. However, I do not want to behave in this manner in my future marriage.

In some church ministries I have to catch myself and take the passenger seat and allow the men of God to drive, especially if they are eager too.

So what are your thoughts about Queen Vashti's conduct and married women?

I hope that the married women on this forum would chime in as well !

TIA!


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## Reminiscing (Feb 12, 2010)

Good question!

Have you read the "Ideal Wife" by Jacquelin Thomas?  It's a christian fiction novel, that tells the story of a woman's refusal to submit to her husband.  In the story, Jacquelin references Queen Vashti's story several times and the question of whether or not she was disrespectful to her husband was brought up.  

Jacquelin uses Ephesians 5:22 to give her answer.  In the KJV it reads, "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord."    The part she emphasizes is "as unto the Lord."  Most people quote the scripture and stop at "unto your husbands" but the key to this verse is that women must submit to their husbands but only as it is pleasing to our Lord.

So to answer your question, I think we need to understand first what the King was really asking his wife to do.  When I read the scripture it seems like he just wanted to present her before his people to show off her beauty while wearing her crown.  In this case I can see how it could be annoying to her but it's not really a sin for a husband to show off his wife so there's no real ground for her to disobey.  HOWEVER, I've read other views on this chapter where it's believed that the King was asking her to appear naked before his people ONLY wearing her crown.  Now in that case, then she had every right to disobey because appearing naked before the people would not be pleasing unto God.

So what are you thoughts on that?  What do you ladies think the king was really asking his wife to do?  I feel it's important that when we're making a decision on whether or not to obey, we first must understand what is being asked of us.

This "submissive" thing is becoming a huge issue within our community.  I don't really want to get into the topic of interracial dating and why black men are turning away from black women but without discussing it we all know the word submissive has something to do with it.  This very word could be a tool that the devil is using to prevent us from having healthy christian marriages.  I thinks it's important that us wives-to-be (whether we've met our husbands or not) understand our role as submissive wives.  If we educate ourselves now then the devil can't use it to attack us.

I have more to say on this topic because like you PinkPebbles, I have to be aggressive and firm on my job but thankfully I also know how to leave that at the office.  I'm not married yet but I do want to submit to my future husband *as unto the Lord*.  But I've said a bunch in this post so I'm going to give others a chance to respond before I continue.

Thanks for starting this discussion PinkPebbles!  I hope some wives will chime in soon!


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## PinkPebbles (Feb 12, 2010)

Reminiscing said:


> Good question!
> 
> *Have you read the "Ideal Wife" by Jacquelin Thomas?* It's a christian fiction novel, that tells the story of a woman's refusal to submit to her husband. In the story, Jacquelin references Queen Vashti's story several times and the question of whether or not she was disrespectful to her husband was brought up.
> 
> ...


 
Reminiscing - you have raised some excellent points ! 

I will check out the book 'Ideal Wife' by Jacquelin Thomas!

I've never heard or read the interpretation that the King wanted to present his wife naked before everyone. Thanks for sharing. However, it is hard to believe that the King would request this of his wife . If that is indeed the case then I agree that she had every right to refuse his request.

I also agree that this 'submissive' thing is huge in our community . I believe it extends across the board, not just in relationships, but on our job, in various organizations, etc. 

Slightly off topic: Sadly, blacks would bend over backwards to take orders from a non-black manager; but let it be a black manager that tells them to do something and they would get the side eye.

Again, thanks for sharing. Please feel free to share more!


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## kbragg (Feb 12, 2010)

I don't think it's relevant to us as Christians as these were not a Godly people. They did not follow God's law, they had their own (Which Haman pointed out to the King later in the book when he sought to have all the jews killed because of his hatred of Mordecai). Women of the ancient world were seen as slaves, property, practically cattle which Christ and later Paul set out to set right. Unfortunately there are some who'd seek to bring women back down to this level again but that's a whole other topic.


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## dicapr (Feb 12, 2010)

I heard a pastor preach on this once.  His conclusion was that the King was actually making an unreasonable request of his wife.  He wanted to flaunt her beauty in front of a bunch of drunk men and be objectified.  This kinds of jives with the fact that after he sobered up he regretted his behavior.  He said that often women were called to those types of parties wearing no clothes.  She basically told him that she would not be disrespected.  It was only because of his pride and drunk state that he was decided that she was being unreasonable.


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## PinkPebbles (Feb 12, 2010)

kbragg said:


> I don't think it's relevant to us as Christians as these were not a Godly people. *They did not follow God's law, they had their own* (Which Haman pointed out to the King later in the book when he sought to have all the jews killed because of his hatred of Mordecai). *Women of the ancient world were seen as slaves, property*, practically cattle which Christ and later Paul set out to set right. Unfortunately there are some who'd seek to bring women back down to this level again but that's a whole other topic.


 
Thanks for sharing. That explains why some interpreted why the King did not have a problem presenting Queen Vashti naked before his guest.

Why did Mordecia wanted Ester to marry this King, a non-Jew? A king that humiliated his ex-wife. 

What was Mordecai's position; was he in the military, an official? Haman conspired to kill the Jews only after Mordecai refused to bow down to him.


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## momi (Feb 13, 2010)

This is a great discussion... I have always been told that the king requested Vashti to appear naked and this is why she disobeyed.  It this was the case then she was correct not to come as it is better to obey God than man, however if it is not and she was just "full of herself" then she was wrong.

Mordecai was Esthers cousin and her guardian since her parents were gone.  To be honest, I'd always thought he held some type of position in the kings party but apparently not.  Apparently he just hung out at the king's gate because his charge "Esther" was inside... he probably rose to some type of position in the kings court when she was crowned queen though.

A contrast to this example would be Sara and Abraham... she obeyed him even when he was wrong.  Remember when she agreed to let King Abimilech (sp) think she was Abraham's sister?  Even though she did this,  Peter uses her as an example because of her obedience... hmmmm

I tell you one thing - who we choose to marry matters.


Good discussion.


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## PinkPebbles (Feb 13, 2010)

momi said:


> This is a great discussion... I have always been told that the king requested Vashti to appear naked and this is why she disobeyed. It this was the case then she was correct not to come as it is better to obey God than man, however if it is not and she was just "full of herself" then she was wrong.
> 
> Mordecai was Esthers cousin and her guardian since her parents were gone. To be honest, I'd always thought he held some type of position in the kings party but apparently not. *Apparently he just hung out at the king's gate because his charge "Esther" was inside...* he probably rose to some type of position in the kings court when she was crowned queen though.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for sharing! I totally agree on who we choose to marry matters..

This makes me wonder why Mordecai wanted Ester to marry this King, a non-Jew.

It leads me to question whether or not Mordecai had an agenda way before Esther. When the king was looking for a queen it was a perfect opportunity for Mordecai to use Esther with his alleged agenda.:scratchch.

I wonder if Mordecai sought the Lord about his plan; or did the Lord place this idea in his heart!?!

Esther did exactly what Mordecai told her to do. She was truly submissive to Mordecai. Ironically, Esther received favor with the King, and everyone who she came into contact with at the palace before she was decreed Queen.


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## phynestone (Feb 13, 2010)

This is a story in the Bible that always left a bad taste in my mouth. I did not think Vashti disrespected her husband b/c I thought he and his company were under the influence of alcohol. Who knows what could have happened to her, queen or not? I agree with the poster who stated she didn't want to be objectified. The king was probably upset and his ego a little bruised, so he dismissed her to save face, as some men do even today. They don't look into what they did wrong. 

Esther learned from Vashti's mistakes and catered to Ahasureus. She and Mordecai were just strategic about everything they did. I don't think she would have been chosen if she didn't observe and listen...


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## Nice & Wavy (Feb 13, 2010)

I take it that Queen Vashti did not want to do what her husband requested of her because it wasn't befitting for a Queen.  As a Queen, she wasn't like the common women in those days, therefore she didn't feel as though this type of thing 'applied' to her.   It must have been demeaning/degrading whatever it was that her husband wanted her to do.

I don't believe that the King ever did this type of thing to her before, so she was taken aback and was very startled that he would treat her in such a way.  Her very first response was to say 'no'.  

It wasn't that she didn't respect her husband, but that she saw herself in a role of respect as the Queen, so she chose NOT to do it, therefore, saying no to her demise.  She understood the ramifications of what would take place and she refused anyway.

I also believe that God allowed this to take place, for the sake of saving Esther and her people.  If Queen Vashti would have given in to her husband's request, what would have happened to Esther and her people at that time?  

I have said no to my husband on numerous occasions, with explanation as to why.  He may not have liked it at the time, but later on realized that I was walking in wisdom and it helped him later on.  Saying no doesn't mean 'disrespect'.  

This is my opinion.

Have a blessed weekend!


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## PinkPebbles (Feb 15, 2010)

I'm enjoying this discussion!

As I continue to study the Book of Ester and read everyone's response I realize there is something to be learned from Queen Vashti and Queen Ester.

As many have stated and interpreted, Queen Vashti perhaps refused the king's request with valid reasons. I agree with saying 'No' doesn't mean disrespect.

The bible tells us to exercise and use discernment, discretion, and godly wisdom when making decisions. 

I was placed in situations on my job where I had to respectfully say no to those who were in charge over project tasks that were in error or unreasonable.

I have also witnessed in various organizations and relationships where people abused their authority.

As Queen Vashti demonstrated, if she was in fact asked to do something shameful and humiliating; we have to stand up for what is right, or we would fall for anything.

On the other hand, Queen Ester demonstrated how to submit to authority when it is done in decency and in order; where it pleases the Lord and blessings can stem from it.

I agree with the poster that said Ester and Mordecai were strategic; they listened and observed.

I believe Ester was strategic because she was humbled, yet strong. Her humbleness is what allowed her to submit to authority. And her strength in the Lord is what kept her.

In her submission she had safety and protection.

Ester placed herself under Mordecai's authority as the man who raised her. Ester listened to Mordecai when he instructed her not to reveal her religion, people, or her family.

Ester also placed herself under Hegai's authority as the man who could help her in practical matters to win the king's favor. Hegai taught Ester exactly what the king would like and she only did what he advised. As a result, Ester knew how to please the king and was chosen to be the queen.

I read in a book, s_ubmission is not a bad thing if you are under the authority of a person who loves you as Christ loves the church!_

Mordecai loved Ester as if she was his own daughter. However, I'm still puzzled at the fact that he encouraged Ester to marry a non-Jew; a king that didn't particularly care for her people. 

Maybe Mordecai was able to foresee some events. He said this to Ester when the Jews needed help: 

"Do not think that because you are in the king's house you alone of all the Jews will escape. *14* For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance for the Jews will arise from another place, but you and your father's family will perish. *And who knows but that you have come to royal position for such a time as this?" *


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## Laela (Feb 15, 2010)

Hi, Pebbles,

The story of Esther is a fascinating one and I see you've asked the same question at least twice, so I'll try to answer it (from my understanding of this book). 

Why did Mordecai want Ester to marry a non-Jew?

She was chosen. Not by Mordecai but by God. God also chose Mordecai, because a wicked man was being used by the devil to kill God's people. That wasn't going to happen but God needed to use earthly vessels to protect his people. Mordecai was a God-fearing man, which is why he refused to bow to Haman. 

Throughout the Bible you'll see God uses the most unlikely people, who do the most unseemly things. But God knows and sometimes we just can't comprehend but we just trust Him. This story is a good example.

As for Vashti, whether her reason for refusing the King was warranted (it's not clear what her frame of mind was, whether she was belligerent or just simply tired and didn't feel well) --the bottom line is she refused the king's command, an offense to not only him but the entire kingdom. So it would be good to say, she 'broke' their law, because the king's commandments were the law. We have to remember those were Babylonians, ungodly people. In those ancient days, women were owned - even queens.  Even Ester, when she became queen, risked 'breaking the law' so she could do what she had to do. The only difference between the two women is God was with Ester.

Her being chosen by the king came with much strategy, because it was part of God's plan to save His people from being destroyed.

Another thing I don't see mentioned is that Ester and her people also prayed and fasted and I believe God guided them -- Mordecai -- at those critical times on what to do next, esp. when Ester asked them to fast/pray before she went to see the King. They turned to God and relied on Him for guidance. *That's a very critical and important lesson in the story of Ester.*





PinkPebbles said:


> I'm enjoying this discussion!
> 
> As I continue to study the Book of Ester and read everyone's response I realize there is something to be learned from Queen Vashti and Queen Ester.
> 
> ...


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## PinkPebbles (Feb 15, 2010)

Laela said:


> Hi, Pebbles,
> 
> The story of Esther is a fascinating one and I see you've asked the same question at least twice, so I'll try to answer it (from my understanding of this book).
> 
> ...


 
Thank you Laela...very well said! I believe God used and guided Ester and Mordecai as well . 

My confusion comes into play in knowing whether or not Haman and the Babylonians planned to kill the Jews before Mordecai refused to bow down to Haman or long before this incident?

If the question is yes, then I really believe Mordecai had an agenda and Ester was perfect for it, the king's search for a queen came in perfect timing!

And Laela you better stop calling me Pebbles before the real Pebbles come and get you!!!..... I'm PinkPebbles...LOL!!!!


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## Laela (Feb 15, 2010)

I believe that Haman's plot was well underway long before Mordecai 'overheard' those two soldiers by the gate talking about it and before Esther was offered up to the king. Haman was known to be an astrologer. Mordecai was a man of God..that's key 

He _had _to have heard from God on what to do and how to deal with Ester. Look at his response to the Queen in Chapter 4:  


12And they told Mordecai what Esther said.
     13Then Mordecai told them to return this answer to Esther, Do not flatter yourself that you shall escape in the king's palace any more than all the other Jews.
     14For if you keep silent at this time, relief and deliverance shall arise for the Jews from elsewhere, but you and your father's house will perish. And who knows but that you have come to the kingdom for such a time as this and for this very occasion?





PinkPebbles said:


> Thank you Laela...very well said! I believe God used and guided Ester and Mordecai as well .
> 
> *My confusion comes into play in knowing whether or not Haman and the Babylonians planned to kill the Jews before Mordecai refused to bow down to Haman or long before this incident?*
> 
> If the question is yes, then I really believe Mordecai had an agenda and Ester was perfect for it, the king's search for a queen came in perfect timing!


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## Laela (Feb 15, 2010)

Let me add... even with the various accounts on Vashti's refusal --that she was asked to appear naked or that it was punishment for how she treated the Jewish girls who were forced to appear naked in her presence -- it was known that she was no more modest than the king himself....  Ungodly people.


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## PinkPebbles (Feb 15, 2010)

Laela said:


> I believe that Haman's plot was well underway long before Mordecai 'overheard' those two soldiers by the gate talking about it and before Esther was offered up to the king. Haman was known to be an astrologer. Mordecai was a man of God..that's key
> 
> He _had _to have heard from God on what to do and how to deal with Ester. Look at his response to the Queen in Chapter 4:
> 
> ...


 
I definitely agree that Mordecai was a man of God! 

When Mordecai heard the two soldiers plotting to kill the King - he (the King) was not Jewish. From my understanding, it did not have anything to do with Ester. 

Haman plotted and wanted to kill the Jews after Mordecai refused to bow down to him.

Overall, I understand where you are coming from.. Mordecai was indeed led by God, I'm quite sure it wasn't an accident or coincidence that he heard the two soldiers.

Sometimes we don't know that we are being used by God until after the fact. That's why I questioned whether or not Mordecai had an agenda before Ester came along. Agenda meaning - to save his people, the Jews from the Babylonians.

Thanks for your input!!!!


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## Laela (Feb 15, 2010)

Well, let me ask you this... do you think Haman liked the Jews before the incident with Mordecai? Why do you think he wanted to kill the king?

No the king wasn't Jewish...but Ester was queen at that time and Mordecai was keeping his eyes on her. 



PinkPebbles said:


> I definitely agree that Mordecai was a man of God!
> 
> When Mordecai heard the two soldiers plotting to kill the King - he (the King) was not Jewish. From my understanding, it did not have anything to do with Ester.
> 
> ...


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## PinkPebbles (Feb 15, 2010)

Laela said:


> Well, let me ask you this... *do you think Haman liked the Jews before the incident with Mordecai? *Why do you think he wanted to kill the king?
> 
> No the king wasn't Jewish...*but Ester was queen at that time and Mordecai was keeping his eyes on her*.


 
Good question!

Ok. From my understanding Haman did not know that Ester or Mordecai were Jewish until it was investigated on the reason why Mordecai would not bow down to him.

Also, I thought that when Mordecai overheard the two soldiers, Ester was not decreed queen. It took 12 months of preparation for Ester and the other Virgins to see who would become queen. 

It's not a surprise that Haman did not like the Jews, especially if he is Babylonian. It could be a lot of reasons why Haman wanted to kill the King (power, greed, jealousy, etc)

( I will have to re-read the order of sequence once I get home). 


1 After these events, King Xerxes honored Haman son of Hammedatha, the Agagite, elevating him and giving him a seat of honor higher than that of all the other nobles. 2 All the royal officials at the king's gate knelt down and paid honor to Haman, for the king had commanded this concerning him. But Mordecai would not kneel down or pay him honor. 



3 Then the royal officials at the king's gate asked Mordecai, "Why do you disobey the king's command?" 4 Day after day they spoke to him but he refused to comply. Therefore they told Haman about it to see whether Mordecai's behavior would be tolerated, for he had told them he was a Jew. 


5 When Haman saw that Mordecai would not kneel down or pay him honor, he was enraged. 6 Yet having learned who Mordecai's people were, he scorned the idea of killing only Mordecai. Instead Haman looked for a way to destroy all Mordecai's people, the Jews, throughout the whole kingdom of Xerxes. 


7 In the twelfth year of King Xerxes, in the first month, the month of Nisan, they cast the pur (that is, the lot) in the presence of Haman to select a day and month. And the lot fell on [a] the twelfth month, the month of Adar. 


8 Then Haman said to King Xerxes, "There is a certain people dispersed and scattered among the peoples in all the provinces of your kingdom whose customs are different from those of all other people and who do not obey the king's laws; it is not in the king's best interest to tolerate them. 9 If it pleases the king, let a decree be issued to destroy them, and I will put ten thousand talents [b] of silver into the royal treasury for the men who carry out this business."  

10 So the king took his signet ring from his finger and gave it to Haman son of Hammedatha, the Agagite, the enemy of the Jews. 11 "Keep the money," the king said to Haman, "and do with the people as you please."


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## Laela (Feb 15, 2010)

Haman knew who Mordecai was... he's a descendant of the Amalekites (Arabs), those who chased the Children of Israel out of Egypt. So there's a long enmity between the peoples of both men... The Amalekites came from Esau. The Israelites came from Jacob.
I may be wrong that Haman knew of the plot to kill the king, but he had a lot of jealousy towards the king as well, and acted as if he were king himself, to the point he quickly rose to power. I believe this was his plan all along, to attack the Jews.... long before Ester was to appear before the king to be selected.


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## momi (Feb 15, 2010)

How did I miss so much of this thread??? I have to go and see what I missed... good to see the discussion continuing!


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## Reminiscing (Feb 15, 2010)

momi said:


> How did I miss so much of this thread??? I have to go and see what I missed... good to see the discussion continuing!



Momi, you took the words right out of my mouth.  I came in hear ready to post, but now I realize I have to go study some more before I can jump in on this convo.  

Great work ladies!  This is very enlightening!


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## JinaRicci (Feb 17, 2010)

This is a nice discussion. 



Laela said:


> Haman knew who Mordecai was... he's a descendant of the Amalekites (Arabs), those who chased the Children of Israel out of Egypt. So there's a long enmity between the peoples of both men... The Amalekites came from Esau. The Israelites came from Jacob.
> I may be wrong that Haman knew of the plot to kill the king, but he had a lot of jealousy towards the king as well, and acted as if he were king himself, to the point he quickly rose to power. I believe this was his plan all along, to attack the Jews.... long before Ester was to appear before the king to be selected.


 
I agree. If we go back to 1 Samuel 15, Saul was supposed to kill all the Amalekites and not even spare the animals but he kept Agag the king and the best of the animals supposedly for sacrifices. 

*1 Sam 15: 9*
*But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every thing that was vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly.* 

Samuel had to end up killing Agag himself but the disobedience to God still cost Saul the crown (vs 26) and his life in the war with the Philistines (ch 28-31). 

Haman was an Amalekite and specifically an Agagite (Esther 3:1) suggesting that someone from Agag's line still survived. 

Do you all remember in the beginning of One Night with the King (love that movie) that they showed Saul keeping Agag's queen who escaped and gave birth to Haman's ancestor? That's not in the Bible but the fact that the term Agagite is only used in Esther to describe Haman and his father suggests that someone else from Agag's household that wasn't mentioned could have been kept alive. It really could have been a woman who was already pregnant or even a child. 

So... Haman would have had some serious issues with the Jews for killing off his people that went way back.


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## PinkPebbles (Feb 17, 2010)

JinaRicci said:


> This is a nice discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Thank you! 

I remember the story about Saul's disobedience for not killing all the Amalekites....the scriptures you referenced in the book of Samuel brings things into perspective!


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## Laela (Feb 17, 2010)

All those 'ites'  .. it all started with that wild man, Edom.  

Thanks for the Scriptures... this chapter is where we get the "it's better to obey than sacrifice"  reference from. That doing what God says trumps doing what we _think _is right or what religious actions call for. I had a few hard lessons on this...

To tie this in with the book of Esther, marrying a non-Jew wasn't the right thing to do.



JinaRicci said:


> This is a nice discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Laela (Feb 17, 2010)

_PinkPebbles_ always strike up the tough discussions... [yep, I remember..PinkPebbles.. lol ] God's Word is unfathomable and some historical parts send me right back to the Bible, too... including this one.   That's indeed a good thing....

I look forward to reading your insight.... 



Reminiscing said:


> Momi, you took the words right out of my mouth.  I came in hear ready to post, but now I realize I have to go study some more before I can jump in on this convo.
> 
> Great work ladies!  This is very enlightening!


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## JinaRicci (Feb 17, 2010)

PinkPebbles- to answer your question on why Mordecai wanted Esther to be queen:  I agree with all who said that it was God leading.  God always has back-up plans.  

I think also from a practical standpoint, the alternative wasn't better.  She was already rounded up for the selection process.  So it seems that the best option would be to become queen.  

When the virgins were getting ready they were in the custody of Hegai (Ch 2: 3; 8).  But after their night with the king, they went into the custody of Shaashgaz, keeper of the *concubines* (vs 14). 

*In the evening she went, and on the morrow she returned into the second house of the women, to the custody of Shaashgaz, the king's chamberlain, which kept the concubines: she came in unto the king no more, except the king delighted in her, and that she were called by name.* 

From the sounds of that, I'd rather be queen too.  I don't know for sure what the night with the king entailed. What do you all really think happened during their one night?


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## PinkPebbles (Feb 17, 2010)

JinaRicci said:


> PinkPebbles- to answer your question on why Mordecai wanted Esther to be queen: I agree with all who said that it was God leading. God always has back-up plans.
> 
> I think also from a practical standpoint, the alternative wasn't better. She was already rounded up for the selection process. So it seems that the best option would be to become queen.
> 
> ...


 
JinaRicci - Now that is an interesting / good question! 

I'd like to know too...

Maybe Ester *only *did what Hegai advised her to do; Since Hegai knew what would please the king....


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## OhmyKimB (Feb 18, 2010)

Reminiscing said:


> Good question!
> 
> Have you read the "Ideal Wife" by Jacquelin Thomas? It's a christian fiction novel, that tells the story of a woman's refusal to submit to her husband. In the story, Jacquelin references Queen Vashti's story several times and the question of whether or not she was disrespectful to her husband was brought up.
> 
> ...


 
I remember reading somewhere that Vashanti was pregnant, and that because of the difference in culture it was basically rude as all heck for her to present herself like that.


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## Reminiscing (Feb 18, 2010)

Kimbb said:


> I remember reading somewhere that Vashanti was pregnant, and that because of the difference in culture it was basically rude as all heck for her to present herself like that.



The theory of her being pregnant is mentioned in the footnotes of the NLT version but unfortunately it's doesn't say if there is any truth to it or not.  It just says that some believed she was pregnant.  It's pretty vague as to what her condition was at the time be it, pregnant, naked, clothed, etc.  I wish there were a more concrete answer.


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## Reminiscing (Feb 18, 2010)

Laela said:


> All those 'ites'  .. it all started with that wild man, Edom.
> 
> Thanks for the Scriptures... this chapter is where we get the "it's better to obey than sacrifice"  reference from. *That doing what God says trumps doing what we think is right or what religious actions call for.* I had a few hard lessons on this...
> 
> To tie this in with the book of Esther, marrying a non-Jew wasn't the right thing to do.



Laela- I like what you wrote here.  I had the same thoughts when I was reading about Mordecai refusing to bow down to Haman.  What you wrote is very powerful.  "What God says trumps what religious action calls for."  I know that Mordecai's situation was on the large side of the sprectrum, meaning him against the law of the land.  His actions put an entire group of religious believers in danger, but this scripture made me think of how this applies to us on a smaller scale.

At times, we get so caught up in what our church tells us we should and shouldn't do that we forget we have a personal relationship with God.  Our churches are there for guidance but God is our ultimate leader.  His orders come first and foremost which is why it's important that we stay tuned in to his still small voice.  We shouldn't be more dedicated to our church than we are to God.  God gave us commandments and rules to live by in the Bible which can be considered the large side of the spectrum as with Mordecai and the laws of the King.  We have to obey these well-known commandments, but God speaks to us everyday also on a smaller scale.   He tells us bit by bit what his plan is for us.  He gives us our own personal laws and commandments on how to accomplish his plan for us.  How many of us are doing exactly what he tells us to do?  Is someone pushing you to join one committee in your church but you know in your heart that God is telling you he needs you on a different committee?  In this case "it is better to obey than to sacrifice" applies as well.  In order to obtain your full blessing from God, you have to do what he asks of you.

I'm not saying that our churches are giving us bad guidance or anything like that.  I just want to point out that God is the only one who knows the plan he has for us.  It's great to receive advice or to hear someone else's vision for you but we need to always cross-reference it with what God speaks to our hearts.  Our connection with our churches or any other organization should not trump our personal relationship with God.  Obey the laws of the land yes, but be in tuned with God also so that first and foremost you're always obeying him.

Every time I'm going through something God gives me a scripture that confirms what he's saying to me.  And this one was right on time.  I was being led the wrong way on a church committee but God reminded me of his true purpose and plan for me.


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## Laela (Feb 19, 2010)

ITA... esp at the bolded. Well said indeed!! 

There are times I don't agree with some things my pastor says or even how he says it. Like with anything, I listen... chew the meat and spit out the bones. This is critical, I believe, to church going. Be led by God first, then man (spiritual leaders). 



Reminiscing said:


> Laela- I like what you wrote here.  I had the same thoughts when I was reading about Mordecai refusing to bow down to Haman.  What you wrote is very powerful.  "What God says trumps what religious action calls for."  I know that Mordecai's situation was on the large side of the sprectrum, meaning him against the law of the land.  His actions put an entire group of religious believers in danger, but this scripture made me think of how this applies to us on a smaller scale.
> 
> *At times, we get so caught up in what our church tells us we should and shouldn't do that we forget we have a personal relationship with God.* * Our churches are there for guidance but God is our ultimate leader.  *His orders come first and foremost which is why it's important that we stay tuned in to his still small voice.  We shouldn't be more dedicated to our church than we are to God.  God gave us commandments and rules to live by in the Bible which can be considered the large side of the spectrum as with Mordecai and the laws of the King.  We have to obey these well-known commandments, but God speaks to us everyday also on a smaller scale.   He tells us bit by bit what his plan is for us.  He gives us our own personal laws and commandments on how to accomplish his plan for us.  How many of us are doing exactly what he tells us to do?  Is someone pushing you to join one committee in your church but you know in your heart that God is telling you he needs you on a different committee?  In this case "it is better to obey than to sacrifice" applies as well.  In order to obtain your full blessing from God, you have to do what he asks of you.
> 
> ...


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## PinkPebbles (Feb 19, 2010)

Reminiscing said:


> At times, we get so caught up in what our church tells us we should and shouldn't do that we forget we have a personal relationship with God.
> 
> Our connection with our churches or any other organization should not trump our personal relationship with God. Obey the laws of the land yes, but be in tuned with God also so that first and foremost you're always obeying him.
> 
> .


 
This really stood out to me...and I had to say AMEN!!!!! 

As someone previously stated Mordecai was indeed in tuned with God, he took a risk not to bow down to man (Haman), or compromise his beliefs. As a result, the Lord worked on his behalf - saving his people. 

This brings us back to Laela's statement about the critical lesson learned in the the book of Ester! Seeking the Lord, and allowing God to lead and guide us....


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## loolalooh (Feb 19, 2010)

Can't wait to get to the Book of Ester.  Subscribing to this thread.


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## HeChangedMyName (Feb 21, 2010)

dicapr said:


> I heard a pastor preach on this once.  His conclusion was that the King was actually making an unreasonable request of his wife.  He wanted to flaunt her beauty in front of a bunch of drunk men and be objectified.  This kinds of jives with the fact that after he sobered up he regretted his behavior.  He said that often women were called to those types of parties wearing no clothes.  She basically told him that she would not be disrespected.  It was only because of his pride and drunk state that he was decided that she was being unreasonable.



oK, you must have been at my church huh.  I was just about to come in and mention this exact idea that was preached to us one Sunday.

If you read early on, the king and the queen both had been partying for days on end and it was said that the king had this brilliant idea of summoning his wife while he was "high in spirits from wine".  This makes total sense to me.

If i can recall, the title of the sermon was something like "You can't treat me like that"  or something to that nature.


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## Reminiscing (Feb 24, 2010)

Hi Ladies,

I've been reading more of Esther and I just wanted to share with you what the footnotes of my bible say regarding how Esther responded to Mordecai asking her for help to save the Jews.  This is from the "Life Application Study Bible: New Living Translation."

Esther 4:11-5:2  FOOTNOTE
Esther risked her life by coming before the king.  Her courageous act gives us a model to follow in approaching a difficult or dangerous task.  Like Eshter, we can: (1) _Calculate the cost._  Esther realized her life was at stake.  (2) _Set priorities._ She believed that the safety of the Jewish race was more important than her life.  (3) _Prepare._  She gathered support and fasted.  (4) _Determine a course of action and move ahead boldly._  She didn't think too long about it, allowing the interlude to lessen her commitment to what she had to do.

Do you have to face a hostile audience, confront a friend on a delicate subject, or talk to your family about changes to be made?  Rather than dreading difficult situations or putting them off, take action with confidence by following Esther's inspiring example.

I had to ponder this footnote for a little bit because I wasn't sure how I felt about it.  We hear so much "wait on the Lord, wait on the Lord" but in this footnote it's actually promoting the fact that Esther didn't really wait.  She weighed the prose and cons, fasted and prayed, then moved right into action.  I understand why Esther had to act quickly but in my life I'm leery of making hasty decisions.  I like to be rational and make sure that I'm not acting out of emotion.  

But, then this started making sense to me.  There are times when I know what needs to be done but I drag my feet with it.  I say "I'm still waiting on God" but really deep down I know that God has already spoken to me. I'm just dragging my feet because I may not be too happy with His direction or possibly scared to act on it.  This footnote is encouraging us to be bold in our obedience to God.  Esther acted quickly because she knew without a doubt what had to be done.  Even though it put her life at risk, she knew she had to go before the king to plead for the safety of the Jews and she was obedient to this.

So to sum this all us... Yes, we must wait on the Lord but make sure you're really waiting.  Be real with yourself.  If you know he's already spoken to you, don't let your own personal hesitations turn into disobedience to God.  We must act quickly on his directions before the enemy can intervene and throw us onto the wrong path.  The enemy will seize every opportunity he can get and hesitation is certainly an open door for him.

It was on my heart to share this with you but please let me know your thoughts on this.  I had to ponder this for a while so I hope I got the right message.


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## JinaRicci (Feb 25, 2010)

^^ I think that's an awesome word from God!


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## PinkPebbles (Feb 25, 2010)

Reminiscing said:


> Hi Ladies,
> 
> I've been reading more of Esther and I just wanted to share with you what the footnotes of my bible say regarding how Esther responded to Mordecai asking her for help to save the Jews. This is from the "Life Application Study Bible: New Living Translation."
> 
> ...


 
 Right on time!

You have raised some excellent points. Knowing when and how to take action definitely requires a sincere relationship with God, and being in tuned with the Holy Spirit. For one it's going to require trust, faith, and obedience.

Your post is indeed right on time. 

A day or two ago the Lord placed on my heart to contact someone from my church to see if they would be interested in serving in a particular ministry.

Last night the person responded back to my email enthusiastic about the idea. Firstly, she let me know that this ministry aligns with her spiritual gift. Secondly, she gave me an update on how she was doing. Surprisingly, she was affected by a natural disaster that took place several months ago. I had no idea.

Not only did I want to pray for her restoration, but I received a vision to help bless this woman financially. I have already contacted someone to help put this plan into action.

The moral of the story is that this woman kept her faith. When I asked her about serving in this ministry she was not bitter, and did not allow her circumstances to dictate the opportunity to use her spiritual gift to bless others. She knows that serving in this particular ministry focus a lot on others, and you have to put your needs aside. I applaud this lady for her strength and trust in the Lord.

She does not know the plan that God has given me to help bless her. It just goes to show when you're operating inside of God's will, His purpose and plan for your life will prevail. We will know when to take action to manifest His promises. 

And we are blessed to be a blessing.

Thank you for posting. I agree that you shared an awesome word!


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## Reminiscing (Feb 25, 2010)

PinkPebbles said:


> Right on time!
> 
> You have raised some excellent points. Knowing when and how to take action definitely requires a sincere relationship with God, and being in tuned with the Holy Spirit. For one it's going to require trust, faith, and obedience.
> 
> ...



PinkPebbles,

Your story also reminds me of when the King read the history books and discovered that Mordecai had saved a previous kings life from men who were plotting to kill him.  At the time of reading, the King had no idea that Haman was going to ask him the next day to kill Mordecai.  But by the grace of God, the next day the king was so impressed with Mordecai's heroic orders that instead of issue orders for his murder, he issued orders of celebration and Haman (who plotted against Mordecai) was ordered to lead this celebration.  God's work comes full circle.  Nothing can interrupt his plan.  At the time that Mordecai was protecting the previous king, he had no idea that his actions then were going to save him from being killed by Haman in the future.  

The sister you contacted had no idea that her faithfulness to God at the time of her loss and then her obedience to God when she accepted the offer to work on your ministry team were going to give her a financial blessing in the very near future.  And in turn, you had no idea that when she first came to your mind for your ministry that it would lead to organizing financial relief for her. 

God is so awesome!  His plan is far more detailed than any of us can imagine.  We are so intertwined with each others lives.  Our actions affect someone else.  God designed us so that we have to rely on our brothers and sisters.  We truly are our brother's keeper.  It's all a part of God's wonderful plan!

Beautiful story PinkPebbles!


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## PinkPebbles (Feb 25, 2010)

Reminiscing said:


> PinkPebbles,
> 
> *Your story also reminds me of when the King read the history books and discovered that Mordecai had saved a previous kings life from men who were plotting to kill him.* *At the time of reading, the King had no idea that Haman was going to ask him the next day to kill Mordecai.* But by the grace of God, the next day the king was so impressed with Mordecai's heroic orders that instead of issue orders for his murder, he issued orders of celebration and Haman (who plotted against Mordecai) was ordered to lead this celebration. *God's work comes full circle. Nothing can interrupt his plan.* *At the time that Mordecai was protecting the previous king, he had no idea that his actions then were going to save him from being killed by Haman in the future. *
> 
> ...


 
Thank you Reminiscing! 

The Lord is truly using you in this thread. Your words of wisdom, knowledge, and understanding are blessing all of us. You are putting things into perspective.

I'm glad that you pointed out the following:

- *Mordecai had saved a previous kings life from men who were plotting to kill him.* 

*-At the time of reading, the King had no idea that Haman was going to ask him the next day to kill Mordecai.*

_*-At the time that Mordecai was protecting the previous king, he had no idea that his actions then were going to save him from being killed by Haman in the future. *_

_*-God's work comes full circle. *_

_*-His plan is far more detailed than any of us can imagine. *_

The above are definitely critical key points. 

And it makes me think of the scripture in *1 Corinthians 2:9* No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. 

We all are here on a divine assignment with a purpose. And I believe it's imperative to have a relationship with the Lord.  I agree that we are our brothers (sisters) keeper...well said!


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## Reminiscing (Feb 25, 2010)

PinkPebbles said:


> The Lord is truly using you in this thread. Your words of wisdom, knowledge, and understanding are blessing all of us. You are putting things into perspective.
> 
> And it makes me think of the scripture in *1 Corinthians 2:9* No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.



Thanks PinkPebbles!  The Lord is truly using you as well.  First with Proverbs and now with Esther.  The Lord lets _you_ know what books we need to read and _I_ follow obediently.  There goes that intertwining again!  Thanks for guiding me through the bible sis!

And, I love that scripture!  I'm about to add it to my list of favorites.  Thanks for sharing!


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