# SPIN-OFF: Black people with Type 1 Hair



## Poohbear (May 12, 2005)

Does anyone know any black people with Type 1 hair??? 

Relaxed hair would be considered type 1 hair, but do you know any blacks who's hair is type 1 withOUT a relaxer???


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## CatSuga (May 12, 2005)

I have some cousins type 1 hair. 
But of coursed they are mixed. (Is saying mixed PC? how about tri-racial).
Some Ethiopians have type 1 hair.

Ethiopians





Well the little girl has type 2/3 hair.


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## caligirl (May 12, 2005)

I know a girl who is mixed with Chinese and black.  She ended up with completely Chinese hair, I'm talking bone straight.  I thought she was lying when she said she didn't flat iron it.


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## CatSuga (May 12, 2005)

More African children.


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## Poohbear (May 12, 2005)

Interesting! Those pics are neat, CatSuga! Thanks for sharing!


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## Mestiza (May 13, 2005)

CatSuga, those children are just adorable!


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## Poohbear (May 13, 2005)

I also wish ALL black people in this world could see those pics too!


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## Mestiza (May 13, 2005)

I have relatives w/ Type 1a - c hair. Andre and Fia's Hairtyping systems are kinda tricky to me. I'm not totally certain about my own hair type.


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## scorpiogirl112184 (May 13, 2005)

a girl i went to high school with she was mixed japanese, black and white. her  so flat and lifeless she hated!!!!


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## katie (May 13, 2005)

All these "black" people named are multi racial though. Including the Ethiopians. It's well known they have Arab heritage.Are there any black people with 2 black parents with type 1 hair? I've never seen that before.


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## NYKittin (May 13, 2005)

never seen that one either, and the ethiopians and somalians I've met usually have type 2 or 3 hair.


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## lovelymissyoli (May 13, 2005)

I thought type 1 was completely straight meaning no texture whatsoever (i.e. no wave or curl pattern)....am I wrong??  As beautiful as those Ethiopian children are, 2 of them still look as though they have type 2 or 3 hair. Now Caligirl's friend's hair sounds like type 1 but these pictures seem misleading.

As for the offspring from two black parents, I have yet to meet any that have type 1 hair...I've seen type 3 (maybe even 2) and their parents were black, however, one of their grandparents happened to be mixed race. So it seems as though if there is mixed blood somewhere in your family's ancestry/pedigree then you have the chance of having a type of hair other than 4, however, most of the A.A.'s I know have either type 3 or 4! Even in cases of bi-racial children, I have yet to meet someone with natural type 1 hair...not flat-ironed hair!!


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## Poohbear (May 13, 2005)

See, this all boils down to everyone have mixed blood...

Why is it that a black person with straighter/less curlier hair is mixed? 

How come a black person with type 4 hair is seen as a black person and never seen as mixed??? 

So how come a black person with type 1 or 2 hair can't be considered black like a black person with type 3 or 4 hair???


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## CatSuga (May 13, 2005)

Poohbear you are causing confusion. 
It is just genitics. 
Now if we are talking about blacks (Africa Americans) they come in all colors and hair types. The reason being is because they are African *American*. That *American* peice is what put that type 3 curl into their hair. Be it White, Indian, Arab, or Spainsh, SOMTHING was mixed in that produced this effect.

The truth being I have never seen a full blooded person of the Negroid human race straight out of African (with an ancestory line of full blooded Negroids) with type 1 hair because they are not genitically arranged for straight type 1 hair.


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## emo (May 13, 2005)

I know two (black) people with Type 1 hair. And although both of their parents are somewhat "mixed", neither of them (the parents) have Type 1 hair.


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## Poohbear (May 13, 2005)

CatSuga said:
			
		

> Poohbear you are causing confusion.
> It is just genitics.
> Now if we are talking about blacks (Africa Americans) they come in all colors and hair types. The reason being is because they are African *American*. That *American* peice is what put that type 3 curl into their hair. Be it White, Indian, Arab, or Spainsh, SOMTHING was mixed in that produced this effect.
> 
> The truth being I have never seen a full blooded person of the Negroid human race straight out of African (with an ancestory line of full blooded Negroids) with type 1 hair because they are not genitically arranged for straight type 1 hair.


I know I know.   I agree that is all just genetics.  I just don't like it when someone says "If a black person has straight/wavy hair, they must be mixed".   How come it can't just be in that black person's genes that they have straight or wavy hair?


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## EbonyF (May 13, 2005)

Not type 1 but by my 1st cousin on my mother side has type 2 hair. She is dark-skinned (mocha baby!) and her hair is like Ananda Lewis'. While her sister is light/brown-skinned and has type 4 hair (Go figure!, and they have the same father).

And they are not mixed. They use to get a lot of questions while growing up since it seems to disturb some Black people when they see a dark skin person with straightish wavy hair.

eta: Someone mentioned above, but I don't believe that you have to have some "other influences" in your lineage in order to have 3-type hair.


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## CatSuga (May 13, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> How come it can't just be in that black person's genes that they have straight or wavy hair?



Because pure blacks don't have straight, curl, wavy hair genes. Somebody, mama grandma, great grandma, great great great grandma, great great great great great grandma was mixed with something. 
Our ancestors did not come over on the boat with type 1 hair. When blacks came to the new world their gene pool became mixed with everything else.

Just look at a globe.
Put the bottom of your thumb on west Africa and spread your hand.
The places where your palm touch are type 4
The places where your fingers point spread out types 1 2 3.


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## Nyambura (May 13, 2005)

katie said:
			
		

> All these "black" people named are multi racial though. Including the Ethiopians. It's well known they have Arab heritage.Are there any black people with 2 black parents with type 1 hair? I've never seen that before.


 
Actually, that's a fallacy. All Ethiopians do NOT have Arab heritage. It's funny how many people assume that when Africans don't fit the stereotype it must be that they're mixed rather than the reality that Africans are far more genetically diverse than the stereotype. Also, those pix of Ethiopian children, although adorable, do *not* show Type 1 or even Type 2 hair. I've seen a lot of Ethiopians and Somalis with Type 3 hair, though.

To answer your question, Pooh, yes, I have seen Black people with Type 1 hair. Some have been North African, most have been AA or Caribbean Blacks. Sallie Richardson, the actress, comes to mind, as does Rachel (can't remember her last name) who used to be a host on BET and is from the Caribbean. I've also seen non-celebs with Type 1 hair who have two "Black" (as America defines "Black") parents.


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## Nyambura (May 13, 2005)

EbonyF said:
			
		

> They use to get a lot of questions while growing up since *it seems to disturb some Black people when they see a dark skin person with straightish wavy hair.*
> 
> eta: Someone mentioned above, but *I don't believe that you have to have some "other influences" in your lineage in order to have 3-type hair*.


 
Yep.


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## Nyambura (May 13, 2005)

lovelymissyoli said:
			
		

> *I thought type 1 was completely straight meaning no texture whatsoever (i.e. no wave or curl pattern)....*am I wrong??  As beautiful as those Ethiopian children are, 2 of them still look as though they have type 2 or 3 hair. Now Caligirl's friend's hair sounds like type 1 but these pictures seem misleading.


 
I have the same definition too.


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## qtgirl (May 13, 2005)

Sallie Richardson is half native american and she is not a type 1; Rachel isn't a type 1 either.  Type 1 is completely straight hair like typically Asian hair.  Most of the world white and black, do not have type 1 hair, it is the rarest type.  

*My question is who cares if there are black ppl. with type 1 hair; what does that "prove". * 



			
				Nyambura said:
			
		

> To answer your question, Pooh, yes, I have seen Black people with Type 1 hair. Some have been North African, most have been AA or Caribbean Blacks. Sallie Richardson, the actress, comes to mind, as does Rachel (can't remember her last name) who used to be a host on BET and is from the Caribbean. I've also seen non-celebs with Type 1 hair who have two "Black" (as America defines "Black") parents.


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## baglady215 (May 13, 2005)

CatSuga said:
			
		

> The truth being I have never seen a full blooded person of the Negroid human race straight out of African (with an ancestory line of full blooded Negroids) with type 1 hair because they are not genitically arranged for straight type 1 hair.


 
Exactly. Black people with Type 1 (or even Type 2 or 3) hair are mixed with something somewhere down the line. That's not an insult. We're all mixed. Who is 100% of something? Yeah, my mom is black and my dad is black. All of my grandparents are black. My grandfather's grandmother was Native American. Other than that, I really don't know. You're lucky if you can trace back 3 or 4 or more generations, but before that, do you REALLY know what was going on? Slavery and colonialism say no.


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## Tru_Mind (May 13, 2005)

CatSuga said:
			
		

> More African children.



Beautiful children, and very pretty hair indeed, but I don't think that it's type 1. I believe that it's type 2 (2a/b)...but it's too hard to tell.

The reason I say this is, because my mama hair looked exactly like the girl on the right's hair in her childhood pics(with braids)...and my mama has some wave to her hair and she's a thin 2a. Type 2 hair frizz...not sure about type 1.


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## Nyambura (May 13, 2005)

qtgirl said:
			
		

> Sallie Richardson is half native american and she is not a type 1; Rachel isn't a type 1 either. Type 1 is completely straight hair like typically Asian hair. Most of the world white and black, do not have type 1 hair, it is the rarest type.
> 
> *My question is who cares if there are black ppl. with type 1 hair; what does that "prove". *


 
Their hair looks completely straight to me. I guess only their hairstylists know for sure. The Types to which I was referring are the ones originated by Andre Walker, Oprah's hairstylist, based on his book. If you refer to his book, you will see that Type 1 is not the rarest hair Type and that Asians are not the only ones (btw, there is no "typical" Asian hair - that too is a stereotype; it's the largest continent in the world, with the genetic diversity to match). I think the major reason that people get confused about hair Types is not b/c of Walker's book but b/c of the misinformation that gets spread on hair boards.

As for who cares if there are black people with Type 1 hair, that's the subject of Pooh's post. If you don't care about it, then don't bother to post in the thread. Speaking for myself, it doesn't "prove" anything that there are Black people with naturally straight hair. I don't think it's that deep.


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## FashionistaNY (May 13, 2005)

My great aunt, she has type 1.  However, her father (my great-grandfather was white).  But if you ask my aunt she's a southern black woman.


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## MeccaMedinah (May 13, 2005)

Nyambura said:
			
		

> Their hair looks completely straight to me. I guess only their hairstylists know for sure. The Types to which I was referring are the ones originated by Andre Walker, Oprah's hairstylist, based on his book. If you refer to his book, you will see that Type 1 is not the rarest hair Type and that Asians are not the only ones (btw, there is no "typical" Asian hair - that too is a stereotype; it's the largest continent in the world, with the genetic diversity to match). I think the major reason that people get confused about hair Types is not b/c of Walker's book but b/c of the misinformation that gets spread on hair boards.
> 
> As for who cares if there are black people with Type 1 hair, that's the subject of Pooh's post. If you don't care about it, then don't bother to post in the thread. Speaking for myself, it doesn't "prove" anything that there are Black people with naturally straight hair. I don't think it's that deep.



 Exactly!! I agree with this whole post.


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## Tru_Mind (May 13, 2005)

qtgirl said:
			
		

> Sallie Richardson is half native american and she is not a type 1; Rachel isn't a type 1 either.  Type 1 is completely straight hair like typically Asian hair.  Most of the world white and black, do not have type 1 hair, it is the rarest type.
> 
> *My question is who cares if there are black ppl. with type 1 hair; what does that "prove". *



It may look like type 1, but I agree, Sallie and Rachel are both type 2's. I have never seen a black person with type 1 hair. Although it's possible the same way that it's possible for a "white" person to have type 4 hair...which I have seen.

To answer your question I don't think no one here truly cares...it's just a thought.


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## Dolapo (May 13, 2005)

Im african and i have type 3 natural hair with some 4 at the back. There is no one from my heritage who is mixed and im pretty sure of that. I know I got my hair from my dad who got his from his mother. I should take a picture of their natural hair but they dont live here....So one doesnt have to be mixed to have a type of hair that is different from type four. I dont know where the type 3 hair came from.....In the northern part of Nigeria, the hausas and fulanis have type 2 and 3 hair and im very sure they're not mixed. Arabs never came to my country only white people and they didnt stay in the North. i think its people in the northern part of Africa that mostly have different hair types. i met a woman from tanzania who has type 2 hair but im not sure if she's mixed or not. Im thinking it depends on the weather or climate. Because its really dry and dusty in the North, nature may have let their hair be a little curly so it doesnt hold sand and dirt and so it doesnt dry out. who knows......


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## FashionistaNY (May 13, 2005)

tru_mind said:
			
		

> It may look like type 1, but I agree, Sallie and Rachel are both type 2's. I have never seen a black person with type 1 hair. Although it's possible the same way that it's possible for a "white" person to have type 4 hair...which I have seen.
> 
> To answer your question I don't think no one here truly cares...it's just a thought.



It is very possible for a black person to have type 1 hair.  My aunt, even though she is mulatto has type 1 hair.  She has no type of curl pattern to her hair whatsoever.  Her hair has the tendency to lay limp and look greasy if she doesn't wash it every day.  Not only, if she attempts to curl her hair, almost immediately without holding sprays/gels the curls fall out and she's back to her bone straight texture.

Most of my grandfather's brothers and sisters have textures between 1 and 2.  I have type 4a hair, so whose to say, possibly down the line I could have offspring who has 1 or 2 hair because it is in my genetic make-up. 

Hair texture like eye color can skip generations, so I wouldn't be shocked to run across AA's with type 1 hair.


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## katie (May 13, 2005)

qtgirl said:
			
		

> *My question is who cares if there are black ppl. with type 1 hair; what does that "prove". *


 Same thing I was wondering..


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## Tru_Mind (May 13, 2005)

Too bad my mama won't let me take a picture of her...believe me I've tried. You guys will say that she is a type 1 whether her hair is wet or dry...but she is not.

My mom's stylists jokes with her and tells her that she has "white people hair" and she could get hair lice easily.  My mom does not like to hear that at all. It's a good thing the she and her stylist are long time friends...or else...


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## qtgirl (May 13, 2005)

I agree a lot of erroneous info. on hairtypes is perpetuated by ppl. on hairboards.  Though there is no universal Asian hairtype, most Asians have straight hair w/o any curl or wave, research it.  Asian hair is usually straight, dark and of a coarse texture.   

Source: P&G Hair Care Research Center

The range of different types of hair is enormous, ranging from tight wiry curls to ruler-straight. The color and shape of hair vary too. What accounts for these differences?
    The type of hair you have is inherited from your parents. We may look back further, and say that it is determined by the part of the world in which your ancestors originated. It all depends on the race, or mixture of races, from which they came. In the very earliest days of human evolution, three basic racial groups of people seem to have existed on this planet. These spread out across the world and became mixed together. They are especially well mixed in countries where there has been massive immigration, such as the U.S.A. over the last few hundred years.
     Scientists have identified three basic types of hair in today's human population, and have related them to these three early races:
Asian, Caucasoid and African.
    The three types of hair not only look quite different, but the differences in their responses to physical and chemical damage can be remarkable.
   Asian
These are people from the Orient, for example from China and Japan. Their hair is very straight, and always black in color.

Caucasoid
The Caucasoid group is the most 'varied' of the three racial groups. Modern Caucasoids are very varied, even though they are descended from the same group of ancestors. They range from the fair-skinned people of north-west Europe to the widely varying peoples of the Indian subcontinent. Their hair may be either wavy or straight, and the diameter varies widely too. The color ranges from black to a pale blond that is almost white, including just about every possible shade in between.

African
African people originated in Africa. Their hair is black and tightly curled. It tends to be woolly and dry, and is extremely easily damaged by heat or chemicals.  



			
				Nyambura said:
			
		

> Their hair looks completely straight to me. I guess only their hairstylists know for sure. The Types to which I was referring are the ones originated by Andre Walker, Oprah's hairstylist, based on his book. If you refer to his book, you will see that Type 1 is not the rarest hair Type and that Asians are not the only ones (btw, there is no "typical" Asian hair - that too is a stereotype; it's the largest continent in the world, with the genetic diversity to match). I think the major reason that people get confused about hair Types is not b/c of Walker's book but b/c of the misinformation that gets spread on hair boards.



I care about why ppl. care therefore I can post.  Also, it seems as if a lot of ppl. have something riding on whether or not black ppl. can have type 1 hair; like they're trying to prove something to someone.  I'm glad it's not that "deep" to you.


> As for who cares if there are black people with Type 1 hair, that's the subject of Pooh's post. If you don't care about it, then don't bother to post in the thread. Speaking for myself, it doesn't "prove" anything that there are Black people with naturally straight hair. I don't think it's that deep.


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## Tru_Mind (May 13, 2005)

FashionistaNY said:
			
		

> It is very possible for a black person to have type 1 hair.  My aunt, even though she is mulatto has type 1 hair.  *She has no type of curl pattern to her hair whatsoever.  Her hair has the tendency to lay limp and look greasy if she doesn't wash it every day.  Not only, if she attempts to curl her hair, almost immediately without holding sprays/gels the curls fall out and she's back to her bone straight texture.*
> 
> Most of my grandfather's brothers and sisters have textures between 1 and 2.  I have type 4a hair, so whose to say, possibly down the line I could have offspring who has 1 or 2 hair because it is in my genetic make-up.
> 
> Hair texture like eye color can skip generations, so I wouldn't be shocked to run across AA's with type 1 hair.



Fashionista you *almost* described my mom's hair...she has those same problems...but she has a wave pattern. Because her hair is very thin it's not a definite wave pattern any product(gel, mousse), or little heat can make it go away.


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## LadyChe (May 13, 2005)

I'm sure that their origins will be argued...

But. Aborigines - can be found with type 1 hair, even blond, with extremely dark skin and very little mixing of past heritage. 

Genetic expression indicates that, while unlikely in a large number of cases, there are people of dark skin tone with straight hair, just like there are pale people with curly/kinky hair. Of course, straight type 1 hair is a very recessive trait, just like violet eyes. 

I don't want to be another voice of derision, but I want to say sincerely - all we are is an amagamation of genes expressed to different extents. Some genes are more easily expressed, but think of it this way - If any particular "race" of people were the only ones left on the planet, given the proper amount of time and the same planetary conditions, all "races" would eventually exist (perhaps in different numerical proportions).


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## qtgirl (May 13, 2005)

Great post.  I agree. 



			
				LadyChe said:
			
		

> I'm sure that their origins will be argued...
> 
> But. Aborigines - can be found with type 1 hair, even blond, with extremely dark skin and very little mixing of past heritage.
> 
> ...


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## katie (May 13, 2005)

Nyambura said:
			
		

> To answer your question, Pooh, yes, I have seen Black people with Type 1 hair. Some have been North African, most have been AA or Caribbean Blacks. Sallie Richardson, the actress, comes to mind, as does Rachel (can't remember her last name) who used to be a host on BET and is from the Caribbean. I've also seen non-celebs with Type 1 hair who have two "Black" (as America defines "Black") parents.



I'm from the Caribbean and have never seen one black person with type 1 hair. It all depends on how you define black though. It is all so subjective.


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## model_chick717 (May 13, 2005)

*Just from reading all the posts--do we not see a "common" thing....most, if not all, who posted knowing someone who is "black" with type 1 hair or close to it--all have some kind of mixed heritage.  Obviously type 1 hair is not a trait in black/negroid people....different races have different traits, just like Asians have a certain features i.e. eyes, etc..... There's nothing wrong with that....it's just reality.*


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## c_octavia (May 13, 2005)

I doubt any one can look at their family/bloodline and not have any one from a different race. So I doubt you can fine some one with type 1 hair that is just african, unless you only trace their "roots" back a few generations.


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## TJD3 (May 13, 2005)

My neighbors daughter has type 1 hair, and her parents are both black.. They are light skinned, but black.  Mom has a relaxer, dad has type 4 hair, and Brie has type one.


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## Tru_Mind (May 13, 2005)

Dolapo said:
			
		

> Im african and i have type 3 natural hair with some 4 at the back. There is no one from my heritage who is mixed and im pretty sure of that. I know I got my hair from my dad who got his from his mother. I should take a picture of their natural hair but they dont live here....So one doesnt have to be mixed to have a type of hair that is different from type four. I dont know where the type 3 hair came from.....In the northern part of Nigeria, the hausas and fulanis have type 2 and 3 hair and im very sure they're not mixed. Arabs never came to my country only white people and they didnt stay in the North. i think its people in the northern part of Africa that mostly have different hair types. i met a woman from tanzania who has type 2 hair but im not sure if she's mixed or not. Im thinking it depends on the weather or climate. Because its really dry and dusty in the North, nature may have let their hair be a little curly so it doesnt hold sand and dirt and so it doesnt dry out. who knows......



Good point about the climates Dolapo! I believe that to be true.

Have you ladies ever seen "The Real Eve" on Discovery Channel. It's very interesting and real. It is believed that our genes can be traced back to a single African women. Also, the climates changes facial features, hair, etc. This change takes...I believe that they said 25,000 years(not sure).

THE REAL EVE


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## Tiffany (May 13, 2005)

model_chick717 said:
			
		

> *Just from reading all the posts--do we not see a "common" thing....most, if not all, who posted knowing someone who is "black" with type 1 hair or close to it--all have some kind of mixed heritage.  Obviously type 1 hair is not a trait in black/negroid people....different races have different traits, just like Asians have a certain features i.e. eyes, etc..... There's nothing wrong with that....it's just reality.*



EXACTLY!!!!!


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## qtgirl (May 13, 2005)

AMEN!

Straight hair, curly hair, slanted eyes, dark skin, light skin, blue eyes, green eyes, brown eyes...  "Nothing is good or bad but thinking makes it so." -William Shakespeare.





			
				model_chick717 said:
			
		

> *Just from reading all the posts--do we not see a "common" thing....most, if not all, who posted knowing someone who is "black" with type 1 hair or close to it--all have some kind of mixed heritage.  Obviously type 1 hair is not a trait in black/negroid people....different races have different traits, just like Asians have a certain features i.e. eyes, etc..... There's nothing wrong with that....it's just reality.
> *


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## katie (May 13, 2005)

model_chick717 said:
			
		

> *Just from reading all the posts--do we not see a "common" thing....most, if not all, who posted knowing someone who is "black" with type 1 hair or close to it--all have some kind of mixed heritage.  Obviously type 1 hair is not a trait in black/negroid people....different races have different traits, just like Asians have a certain features i.e. eyes, etc..... There's nothing wrong with that....it's just reality.*



Yup. Well said.


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## FlowerHair (May 13, 2005)

LadyChe said:
			
		

> I'm sure that their origins will be argued...
> 
> But. Aborigines - can be found with type 1 hair, even blond, with extremely dark skin and very little mixing of past heritage.
> 
> ...


 
Exactly, we all have those traits within us but it might not show on the outside before we breed with someone. Don't forget that the original Africans carry the traits of every race.


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## Nyambura (May 13, 2005)

qtgirl said:
			
		

> I agree a lot of erroneous info. on hairtypes is perpetuated by ppl. on hairboards. Though there is no universal Asian hairtype, most Asians have straight hair w/o any curl or wave, research it. Asian hair is usually straight, dark and of a coarse texture.
> 
> Source: P&G Hair Care Research Center
> 
> ...


 
Is your idea of research a pamphlet from Proctor & Gamble? Perhaps you should broaden your research resources. If you were to read articles published by well-respected scientific journals, for example, you would learn that geneticists have rejected "race" as a scientifically-supportable, or even definable, concept. It's been that way for a while. Race is a social construct. There are many, many threads containing disagreements about who is Black, whether a certain celebrity looks Black (or Black enough), which illustrates how fluid a definition it is. Your characterization of African people is also incorrect and stereotypical. You can consult CatSuga's posts containing photographs of Ethiopian children, or you can read Dolapo's post to see that. As an African myself, I can tell you that my hair doesn't fit your stereotype, either. But why let facts get in the way of a good story? lol.

I think your last paragraph, with respect to the participants in this particular thread, is pure projection. Again, there is no legitimate evidence to support your assertion.


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## Nyambura (May 13, 2005)

katie said:
			
		

> I'm from the Caribbean and have never seen one black person with type 1 hair. *It all depends on how you define black though. It is all so subjective*.


 
ITA.


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## Nyambura (May 13, 2005)

LadyChe said:
			
		

> I'm sure that their origins will be argued...
> 
> But. Aborigines - can be found with type 1 hair, even blond, with extremely dark skin and very little mixing of past heritage.
> 
> ...





			
				FlowerHair said:
			
		

> Exactly, we all have those traits within us but it might not show on the outside before we breed with someone. Don't forget that the original Africans carry the traits of every race.


 
Good points.


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## Tru_Mind (May 13, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> See, this all boils down to everyone have mixed blood...
> 
> Why is it that a black person with straighter/less curlier hair is mixed?
> 
> ...



Good point PB...but it's all about genetics. We can't control our genes. If not all most black/AA are mixed and again we can't control our genes.

I know a black/AA girl from high school who has dark blue eyes. Neither of her parents have blue eyes. She is the only one in her family with blue eyes. Obviously a least one of her ancestors had blue eyes. The girl is brown skin, black/AA features, with type 4 hair and dark blue eyes. I know what scientist say about blue eyes, so this is a very rare incident. It's all about genetics.


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## qtgirl (May 13, 2005)

*Slow down.*

I know all about race as a social construct, but you cannot deny the varying phenotypes* of diff. "races" of humans.  Although there are variations in each "racial" phenotype there are overwhelming similarities within the types.  Which is why when someone's physical characteristics are out of their "racial" phenotype it is seen as a rarity or oddity, hence even the question of whether or not there are black ppl. with type 1 hair.  You're not going to argue phenotypes are you?  Also race is more or less just archetypes of the dominant features in a particular phenotype.

Since you seem to be in possession of more scientific journals on hair and hairtype maybe you could copy and paste what they say about hair and race.  

Also, I am well aware that P&G's research is limited in respect to African characteristics I have known Africans with type 2-4 hair.  So, you must have misunderstood my post in that respect.

As Modelchick previously said, there are some traits that are just synonymous with different "races" and there is nothing wrong with that.


_*phenotype: the visible properties of an organism that are produced by the interaction of the genotype and the environment_

As for me "projecting" anything, I'm just calling a spade a spade.  When ppl. are overly concerned with a particular subject and are darn near pathological on it as well, it would seem that said person has some personal stake in the outcome.






			
				Nyambura said:
			
		

> Is your idea of research a pamphlet from Protctor & Gamble? Perhaps you should broaden your research resources. If you were to read articles published by well-respected scientific journals, for example, you would learn that geneticists have rejected "race" as a scientifically-supportable, or even definable, concept. It's been that way for a while. Race is a social construct. There are many, many threads containing disagreements about who is Black, whether a certain celebrity looks Black (or Black enough), which illustrates how fluid a definition it is. Your characterization of African people is also incorrect and stereotypical. You can consult CatSuga's posts containing photographs of Ethiopian children, or you can read Dolapo's post to see that. As an African myself, I can tell you that my hair doesn't fit your stereotype, either. But why let facts get in the way of a good story? lol.
> 
> I think your last paragraph, with respect to the participants in this particular thread, is pure projection. Again, there is no legitimate evidence to support your assertion.


----------



## model_chick717 (May 13, 2005)

*PREACH! haha, I'm STILL wondering why the discussion is getting so "heated".....*:scratchch 


			
				qtgirl said:
			
		

> *Slow down.*
> 
> I know all about race as a social construct, but you cannot deny the varying phenotypes* of diff. "races" of humans. *Although there are variations in each "racial" phenotype there are overwhelming similarities within the types. Which is why when someone's physical characteristics are out of their "racial" phenotype it is seen as a rarity or oddity, hence even the question of whether or not there are black ppl. with type 1 hair.* You're not going to argue phenotypes are you? Also race is more or less just archetypes of the dominant features in a particular phenotype.
> 
> ...


----------



## Crysdon (May 13, 2005)

lovelymissyoli said:
			
		

> *I thought type 1 was completely straight meaning no texture whatsoever (i.e. no wave or curl pattern)....am I wrong??*  As beautiful as those Ethiopian children are, 2 of them still look as though they have type 2 or 3 hair. Now Caligirl's friend's hair sounds like type 1 but these pictures seem misleading.
> 
> As for the offspring from two black parents, I have yet to meet any that have type 1 hair...I've seen type 3 (maybe even 2) and their parents were black, however, one of their grandparents happened to be mixed race. So it seems as though if there is mixed blood somewhere in your family's ancestry/pedigree then you have the chance of having a type of hair other than 4, however, most of the A.A.'s I know have either type 3 or 4! *Even in cases of bi-racial children, I have yet to meet someone with natural type 1 hair...not flat-ironed hair!!*



You are not wrong missyoli.  I have yet to see/meet a non-mixed race Black person with type 1 hair.  I believe people who say they have don't really know Andre's hair typing system.  BTW - I don't know where, but I believe I saw someone on here post that they or their mother has type 1b.  What is one 1b???   Type 1 hair is straight, period.

*Type 1 
Is straight hair, which has doesn’t have any type of wave of curl pattern*

1.  Straight hair

2.  Wavy hair
     A - Fine & Thin
     B - Medium
     C - Thick & Coarse

3.  Curly hair
     A - Loose loopy curls
     B - More defined curls to very well defined curls (ringlets)  
     C - Tight coils with frizz

4.  Kinky hair (Oprah's hair)
     A - Tightly curly - S shape like Type 3
     B - Wiry - Z pattern


----------



## Nyambura (May 13, 2005)

qtgirl said:
			
		

> *Slow down.*
> 
> I know all about race as a social construct, but you cannot deny the varying phenotypes* of diff. "races" of humans. Although there are variations in each "racial" phenotype there are overwhelming similarities within the types. Which is why when someone's physical characteristics are out of their "racial" phenotype it is seen as a rarity or oddity, hence even the question of whether or not there are black ppl. with type 1 hair. You're not going to argue phenotypes are you? Also race is more or less just archetypes of the dominant features in a particular phenotype.
> 
> ...


 
If you re-read your own post, your invitation for me to conduct research came right after your discussion of Asian hair. I'm not going to cut and paste articles from journals that are not online but you are welcome to make the effort yourself to go to a bricks-and-mortar library and look up the journals yourself. "Phenotypes" schmenotypes It's impossible to limit Africans to one phenotype just as it's impossible with Asians. Some of us have slim "pointy" noses, others wide and flat (that's on both continents). Just as "race" is not a scientifically-valid entity, and has been rejected for some time as such, so is the idea that the genetic similarities among "races" (for example, "Blacks") is greater than the genetic similarities between "races" (for example, between "Blacks" and "Whites.") But we're getting waaaay off topic here.

As for being pathological or overly concerned, again, there is no evidence in this thread to support your conjecture. Honestly, I don't think that PoohBear is pathological, or necessarily overly concerned, about Type 1 hair to post about it, lol. It's a hair care forum. What better place to discuss hair?  Of all types?  And if discussing it makes us pathological or overly concerned, what does that say about you for being a participant?  

I'm going to go out on a limb and say nobody in this thread, including you, is pathological or overly concerned about Type 1 hair. 

Good luck to you, qtgirl.


----------



## Nyambura (May 13, 2005)

model_chick717 said:
			
		

> *PREACH! haha, I'm STILL wondering why the discussion is getting so "heated".....*:scratchch


 
Model_chick, if you're referring to me, I'm not getting heated. This is actually amusing. But think what you will....


----------



## qtgirl (May 13, 2005)

I agree a lot of ppl. do not know Andre's scale and make up their own, whether out of not knowing or to try and fit their hairtype into another box.

*Andre's Hair Type Scale:*

*Type 1: Straight hair*
Not much more to say.

*Type 2: Wavy hair*
Type 2 hair falls into the great divide between Type 1, straight hair, and Type 3, curly hair. A relatively unusual type, wavy hair tends to be coarse, with a definite "S" pattern to it. By that I mean the wave forms throughout the hair in the shape of the letter "S". Your hair is wavy, or Type 2, if it curves in the "S" shape while laying flat against the scalp, instead of standing away from the head the way curly hair does. Supermodel Yasmeen Ghauri, actress/model Isabella Rosellini and actress Jennifer Aniston of Friends (the one who sparked a craze for the ubiquitous "Friends haircut" of the mid-1990s) are all Type 2s. Type 2s are often confused with Type 3s because it is easy to get curly hair to lay flat and look wavy. But don't be fooled: you can't get Type 2 hair to look like Type 3 without a lot of work. Why? The hallmark of wavy hair is that it sticks close to the head: even if you cut it in layers, it won't bounce up. There are three Type 2 subtypes: A, fine and thin; B, medium-textured; and C, thick and coarse. Type 2A is very easy to handle, pliantly blowing out into a straighter style or taking on curlier looks with relative ease. Types 2B and 2C are a little more resistant to styling and have a tendency to frizz

*Type 3: Curly hair*
With curly hair, there is a definite loopy "S" pattern. Pluck out a hair, stretch it out. Notice the curvy lines. Looks like s stretched-out Slinky, doesn't it? Most people think curly hair is coarse, but actually it is usually baby soft and very fine in texture – there's just a lot of it. Because the cuticle layers don't like as flat, curly hair isn't as shiny as straight or wavy hair. The hair doesn't have a very smooth surface, so light doesn't reflect off of it as much. When curly hair is wet, is usually straightens out. As it dries, it absorbs the water and contracts to its curliest state. Those of you with Type 3 hair know all too well that humidity makes curly hair even curlier, or even frizzier.

If you're a Type 3, your hair has a lot of body and is easily styled in its natural state, or it can be easily straightened with a blow-dryer into a smoother style. Healthy Type 3 hair is shiny, with soft, smooth curls and strong elasticity. The curls are well-defined and springy: pull out a strand of hair and stretch it; it won't snap in two. Damaged Type 3 hair is usually frizzy, dull, hard and dry to the touch, with fuzzy, ill-defined curls.

There are two subtypes of curly hair. Type 3A, hair that is very loosely curled like Julia Robert's or Susan Sarandon's is usually very shiny with big curls. The shorter the hair, the straighter it gets. The longer the hair the more defined the curl. Type 3B, on the other hand, is hair with a medium amount of curl, ranging from bouncy ringlets – think of Shirley Temple and Nicole Kidman – to tight corkscrews – think of actress Cree Summer of television's Sweet Justice of jazz singer Cleo Laine. It's not unusual to find both subtypes coexisting on the same head. In fact, curly hair usually consists of a combination of textures, with the crown being the curliest part.

*Even Type 3C is an invention from another hairboard (naturallycurly.com)*Naturallycurly.com readers have suggested a third Type 3 subtype: 3c.
Type 3C, is hair with tight curls in corkscrews. The curls can be either kinky, or very tightly curled, with lots and lots of strands densely packed together. Some people refer to this as "big hair." Getting this type of hair to blowdry straight is more challenging than for 3A or 3B, but it usually can be done. This includes those with very tight curls but finer hair, as well as coarser hair. 3C has really really tight curls, like pencil or straw circumference. 3B is like sidewalk chalk or salt shaker circumference, and 4A is like coffee stirrer circumference.
*
Type 4: Kinky hair*
If your hair falls into the Type 4 category, then it is kinky, or very tightly curled. Generally, Type 4 hair is very wiry, very tightly coiled and very, very fragile. Like Type 3 hair, Type 4 hair appears to be coarse, but it is actually quite fine, with lots and lots of this strands densely packed together. Healthy Type 4 hair won't shine, but it will have sheen. It will be soft to the touch and will pass the strand test with ease. It will feel more silky than it will look shiny. Oprah, Whoopi Goldberg and the actress Angela Bassett are all Type 4s.

Type 4 hairs looks tough and durable, but looks can be deceiving. If you have Type 4 hair, you already know that it is the most fragile hair around. Why? Type 4 hair has fewer cuticle layers than any other hair type, which means that it has less natural protection from the damage you inflict by combing, brushing, curling, blow-drying and straightening it. The more cuticle layers in a single strand of hair, the more protection it has from damage. Each time you damage your hair – fire up the curling iron, fry it with chemicals – you break down a cuticle layer, robbing your hair of much-needed moisture. I cannot emphasize this enough. It's like taking a wire and bending it again and again. Eventually, it's going to snap and break.

Many women with Type 4 hair rely on chemical relaxers to make hair easier to control. In its natural states, sometimes Type 4 hair doesn't grow very long because every time you comb it, it breaks. (Of course, if you have dreadlocks and never comb them or keep them braided, your hair can and does grow quite long.)

There are two subtypes of Type 4 hair: Type 4A, tightly coiled hair that, when stretched, has an "S" pattern, much like curly hair; and Type 4B, which has a "Z" pattern, less of a defined curl pattern (instead of curling or coiling, the hair bends in sharp angles like the letter "Z"). Type 4A tends to have more moisture than Type 4B, which will have a wiry texture. But what if your hair has been chemically straightened? How can you tell which subtype you belong to if your hair is relaxed? You'll need at least one inch of new growth to tell. Pull at the roots. If you can see a definite curl pattern, then it's an A, if not, then it's a B.


			
				Crysdon said:
			
		

> You are not wrong missyoli.  I have yet to see/meet a non-mixed race Black person with type 1 hair.  I believe people who say they have don't really know Andre's hair typing system.  BTW - I don't know where, but I believe I saw someone on here post that they or their mother has type 1b.  What is one 1b???   Type 1 hair is straight, period.
> 
> *Type 1
> Is straight hair, which has doesn’t have any type of wave of curl pattern*
> ...


----------



## mscounselor (May 13, 2005)

This discussion caught my eye as I was about to wash out my evoo. The original question was does anyone know of a Black person with type 1 hair. From there we went all over the world. (love the little National Geographic type discussion  ). I am from the Jamaica, my parents are mixed, and I have 4a hair. I wouldn't touch the islands, because we trace our heritage to so many places there's not enough time to explain.   
So I am just going to answer the question. NO. My family only has 2,3, and 4. Even my maternal grandmother who is from Scotland had type 2 hair. If it exists, cool. I'm not surprised considering the world we live in.


----------



## baglady215 (May 13, 2005)

Dolapo said:
			
		

> Im african and i have type 3 natural hair with some 4 at the back. There is no one from my heritage who is mixed and im pretty sure of that.


 
Just curious, but how can you be so sure?


----------



## qtgirl (May 13, 2005)

Just because as I said before there are variations in one phenotype doesn't mean that a phenotype doesn't exist.  Yes, there are blacks with wide noses and slim noses, but most have brown skin, no? Yes, there are East Asians with straight hair and non-straight hair, but most have a certain eye shape no?

Thanks for the invitation to go to the library; I may just do that and if I have any free time scan some articles to foster my points.

Unfortunately, you are correct in one aspect.  I am overly concerned when ppl. of color are overly concerned about things *I* consider pathological, i.e. the "Bluest Eye" syndrome.  But that is my own cross to bear.  I'm just happy to inject some thought provoking discussion.

*ETA: It's nice debating with you.*




			
				Nyambura said:
			
		

> If you re-read your own post, your invitation for me to conduct research came right after your discussion of Asian hair. I'm not going to cut and paste articles from journals that are not online but you are welcome to make the effort yourself to go to a bricks-and-mortar library and look up the journals yourself. "Phenotypes" schmenotypes It's impossible to limit Africans to one phenotype just as it's impossible with Asians. Some of us have slim "pointy" noses, others wide and flat (that's on both continents). Just as "race" is not a scientifically-valid entity, and has been rejected for some time as such, so is the idea that the genetic similarities among "races" (for example, "Blacks") is greater than the genetic similarities between "races" (for example, between "Blacks" and "Whites.") But we're getting waaaay off topic here.
> 
> As for being pathological or overly concerned, again, there is no evidence in this thread to support your conjecture. Honestly, I don't think that PoohBear is pathological, or necessarily overly concerned, about Type 1 hair to post about it, lol. It's a hair care forum. What better place to discuss hair?  Of all types?  And if discussing it makes us pathological or overly concerned, what does that say about you for being a participant?
> 
> ...


----------



## Dolapo (May 13, 2005)

baglady215 said:
			
		

> Just curious, but how can you be so sure?


 
because if we had anyone from any other race in my family, i would know...and i asked my grandma and she said no that thats just the way our hair is. My roots are deeply embedded in my hometown so there's no doubt about that


----------



## Nyambura (May 13, 2005)

qtgirl said:
			
		

> *ETA: It's nice debating with you.*


 
You too, qtgirl.


----------



## LookieLoo (May 13, 2005)

I have never seen a person of full African descent with Type-1 hair. The closest I've come is a cousin of mine who is mixed-race (half- Chinese, half- Black-American) ... and even she'd be classified as Type-2.

I know many Aborigines have bone-straight hair (they are "black" but absolutely not of African descent) and dark-skinned Indians, of course. But Type-1 hair just isn't a black-African trait.


----------



## Strive4longhair (May 13, 2005)

EbonyF said:
			
		

> Not type 1 but by my 1st cousin on my mother side has type 2 hair. She is dark-skinned (mocha baby!) and her hair is like Ananda Lewis'. While her sister is light/brown-skinned and has type 4 hair (Go figure!, and they have the same father).
> 
> And they are not mixed. They use to get a lot of questions while growing up since it seems to disturb some Black people when they see a dark skin person with straightish wavy hair.
> 
> eta: Someone mentioned above, but I don't believe that you have to have some "other influences" in your lineage in order to have 3-type hair.




You just described my two children.  My oldest daughter is light skin (practically pale) and has type 4 hair that I have problems with growing and my youngest is dark-skinned (mocha) with long type 2 hair and has no problem with growth. They both have the same father but on both sides of our family our great-grandmothers are indian.  So in a way I think "other influences" do somewhat factor in.  Just my opinion.


----------



## Nyambura (May 13, 2005)

Crysdon said:
			
		

> ...I believe I saw someone on here post that they or their mother has type 1b. What is one 1b???


 
According to Walker's book, there are three subtypes of Type 1 hair (a - c), even though it's all supposed to have absolutely no curl and no wave. According to him, Type 1b is medium-textured with a lot of body. ::shrug::


----------



## alibi (May 13, 2005)

My aunt has type 1 hair, and my mom's is type 2. I have pics of my mom's hair in my album, but I'll have to try to dig up a pic of my aunt's hair. :scratchch

ETA: I added a pic of my auntie's hair in my album under "mommy's hair" Sorry, it's not the best pic.


----------



## divine (May 13, 2005)

Both my grandma on my dads side, and my great-grandma on my moms side have type 1 hair. OF they are mixed, but so..........


----------



## Crysdon (May 13, 2005)

ayanapooh said:
			
		

> My aunt has type 1 hair, and my mom's is type 2. I have pics of my mom's hair in my album, but I'll have to try to dig up a pic of my aunt's hair. :scratchch
> 
> ETA: I added a pic of my auntie's hair in my album under "mommy's hair" Sorry, it's not the best pic.



I just saw the picture.  Your auntie's hair is a type 2, not 1.  Beautiful hair (both mother and aunt).


----------



## Poohbear (May 13, 2005)

model_chick717 said:
			
		

> *PREACH! haha, I'm STILL wondering why the discussion is getting so "heated".....*:scratchch


ME TOO!  

What happen while I was gone for a couple of hours? Geez! I come back and have a bad rating on this thread I started.  

It's okay ladies.  Let's just say anyone can have any type of hair texture and move on!


----------



## Tru_Mind (May 13, 2005)

qtgirl said:
			
		

> I agree a lot of ppl. do not know Andre's scale and make up their own, whether out of not knowing or to try and fit their hairtype into another box.


I agree, so many people here still don't understand...or whatever, because Andre's scale is really not that complicated.

I believe that Andre tried his best not to relate hair types to race, because most people are mixed anyway...if you what to call it "mixed", because all races originate from Africa...and like Flowerhair said, "Africans carry the traits of every race."

Andre even said that this was one reason why he came up with the hair typing scale to stop people from relating hair to race, because all caucasians don't have the same hair, all blacks don't either, etc. 

We already related hair types to race waaay before Andre's scale...and we continue to do so. I believe that he should have shown pics of different races in each section in order to further prove his point to some of us.

Many people are mixed many times over. I know a family who where orignally classified as black, then mixed with white and Native American and became classified as white, and then mixed with black and now they're classified as black again.


----------



## alibi (May 13, 2005)

Crysdon said:
			
		

> I just saw the picture. Your auntie's hair is a type 2, not 1. Beautiful hair (both mother and aunt).


 
Thanks, I love both of their hair!  But when my auntie's hair is soaking wet like my mom's, it's stick straigh without any curls.  She can only get it to curl with hot rollers.  I guess it all depends on one's definition.

BTW, I hadn't read the whole thread when I posted before, but I have now.  I don't know why this type of discussion always gets to some ppl, cuz I don't think it's that deep.  Most African's don't have straight hair b/c their heads would burn up in the hot sun, period! I don't think God was making an aesthetic choice when he created people.  But it is possible for black people to have type 1 hair.  Not common, but it does happen.


----------



## Poohbear (May 13, 2005)

*I wonder why the "White People with Type 4 Hair" thread didn't get heated like this one... *


----------



## honeisos (May 13, 2005)

Leave it to Pooh to start the drama!!!

Luv ya Pooh ... you really know how to give the board FIRE!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## KAddy (May 13, 2005)

Crysdon said:
			
		

> I just saw the picture.  Your auntie's hair is a type 2, not 1.  Beautiful hair (both mother and aunt).


I beg to differ. Her hair looks straight to me no curl. She stated that her aunt curls it to put the bend in it.


----------



## MonaLisa (May 13, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> *I wonder why the "White People with Type 4 Hair" thread didn't get heated like this one... *


 
*Question....is that where you got the idea for this thread?*

*Also, scientific fact...where there's fire...comes heat. *


----------



## Nyambura (May 13, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> *I wonder why the "White People with Type 4 Hair" thread didn't get heated like this one... *


 
I was wondering the same thing myself...but let me not go further, since apparently insisting that texture discussions such as these don't = pathology makes my statements "heated," lol.  Although my post in the thread quoted above didn't seem to generate such a reaction.


----------



## EbonyF (May 13, 2005)

Some food for thought but...

Why is that a Black person with straightish hair HAS to have some non-white ancestry?

Why isn't this question for White folks with Curly hair? Did they get their Curls from a Black/African ancestor and the "naps" got looser over time, hence them having curly hair?

HMMM.


----------



## Tiffany (May 13, 2005)

Straight hair is not a black/negroid characteristic.


----------



## myco (May 13, 2005)

ayanapooh said:
			
		

> Thanks, I love both of their hair!  But when my auntie's hair is soaking wet like my mom's, it's stick straigh without any curls.  She can only get it to curl with hot rollers.  I guess it all depends on one's definition.
> 
> BTW, I hadn't read the whole thread when I posted before, but I have now.  I don't know why this type of discussion always gets to some ppl, cuz I don't think it's that deep.  Most African's don't have straight hair b/c their heads would burn up in the hot sun, period! I don't think God was making an aesthetic choice when he created people.  But it is possible for black people to have type 1 hair.  Not common, but it does happen.



I was watching a program on TLC (it might have been _The Real Eve_) and the researchers were discussing the environmental uses for the differences in hair and skin color.  In hot, tropical climates like most of Africa, kinky,curly hair is advantageous because it allows for heat to be dispersed from the scalp. The strands of hair grow away from the head allowing the heat to escape.  Straighter hair on the other hand, lays next to the scalp trapping the heat next to the body.

The stereotypical caucasian nose is advantageous in colder climates because the high, thin nasal passage warms incoming air.  Broader, flatter noses help to cool the incoming air. 

Melanin or the lack thereof is related to our ability to absorb Vitamin D from the sun.  Melanin inhibits Vitamin D absorption from the sun. So if you live in a northern climate that gets relatively less sun for large parts of the year, fairer skin allows you to maximize your Vitamin D absorption when it's available.  On the flipside, the ability to produce melanin offers more UV protection in climates that get a lot of sun year-round.  I know that was OT, but I just find stuff like that amazing.  There is a method to the madness. 

I was going to answer Poohbear's original question, but I don't know any unmixed black people with Type 1 or Type 2 hair.  It might not have been in the last couple of generations, but great-grandmother/father and beyond it's there.


----------



## FlowerHair (May 13, 2005)

ayanapooh said:
			
		

> My aunt has type 1 hair, and my mom's is type 2. I have pics of my mom's hair in my album, but I'll have to try to dig up a pic of my aunt's hair. :scratchch
> 
> ETA: I added a pic of my auntie's hair in my album under "mommy's hair" Sorry, it's not the best pic.


 
Your mother looks like a 3b/c to me, because my hair looks even straighter than that when wet and I'm nowhere near a 2... Just my opinion. Your mother's hair is very beautiful!


----------



## Poohbear (May 13, 2005)

MonaLisa said:
			
		

> *Question....is that where you got the idea for this thread?*
> 
> *Also, scientific fact...where there's fire...comes heat. *


yeah, see where it say's "SPIN-OFF" in front of the title of this thread?


----------



## LookieLoo (May 13, 2005)

EbonyF said:
			
		

> Some food for thought but...
> 
> Why is that a Black person with straightish hair HAS to have some non-white ancestry?


 
Because straight hair is not a black/negroid/sub-saharan-African trait. If I saw a Korean man, for instance, who naturally had type-3C/4A hair, it would not be outlandish for me to assume that he is not 100% Korean.



			
				EbonyF said:
			
		

> Why isn't this question for White folks with Curly hair? Did they get their Curls from a Black/African ancestor and the "naps" got looser over time, hence them having curly hair?
> 
> HMMM.


 
But it is... Unless I'm mistaken, Jewish people with kinky/curly hair have some Arab/northern-African ancestry. Italians with curly/kinky hair also tend to have some African ancestry. Look far enough into their lineage and you'll find it. And, of course, there's the issue that *everyone* on the planet used to be African.


----------



## MonaLisa (May 13, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> yeah, see where it say's "SPIN-OFF" in front of the title of this thread?


 
*Actually, you know, I didn't even notice it.  I forgot that you like to generate threads based on someone elses quite often.  I should've realized that immediately.*

*my bad. *


----------



## Poohbear (May 13, 2005)

MonaLisa said:
			
		

> *Actually, you know, I didn't even notice it. I forgot that you like to generate threads based on someone elses quite often. I should've realized that immediately.*
> 
> *my bad. *


HEE-HEE!   I really don't do spin-off's quite often though. I just thought this would be an interesting one to do from that white 4a thread. Oh well.


----------



## Poohbear (May 13, 2005)

Nyambura said:
			
		

> I was wondering the same thing myself...but let me not go further, since apparently insisting that texture discussions such as these don't = pathology makes my statements "heated," lol.  Although my post in the thread quoted above didn't seem to generate such a reaction.


I hadn't read the whole thread yet before posting that.  I just saw a bad rating, several pages long, and that one post by model_chick about it being heated after coming back about 2 hrs after posting this thread.  It's okay girl.  After reading through your posts finally, I don't see you as being angry at anyone at all; you're just sharing your knowledge and views.


----------



## baglady215 (May 13, 2005)

myco said:
			
		

> I was watching a program on TLC (it might have been _The Real Eve_) and the researchers were discussing the environmental uses for the differences in hair and skin color. In hot, tropical climates like most of Africa, kinky,curly hair is advantageous because it allows for heat to be dispersed from the scalp. The strands of hair grow away from the head allowing the heat to escape. Straighter hair on the other hand, lays next to the scalp trapping the heat next to the body.
> 
> The stereotypical caucasian nose is advantageous in colder climates because the high, thin nasal passage warms incoming air. Broader, flatter noses help to cool the incoming air.
> 
> Melanin or the lack thereof is related to our ability to absorb Vitamin D from the sun. Melanin inhibits Vitamin D absorption from the sun. So if you live in a northern climate that gets relatively less sun for large parts of the year, fairer skin allows you to maximize your Vitamin D absorption when it's available. On the flipside, the ability to produce melanin offers more UV protection in climates that get a lot of sun year-round. I know that was OT, but I just find stuff like that amazing. There is a method to the madness.


 
Yes, I learned this in HS.  Over time, people have adapted to their environment.


----------



## EbonyF (May 13, 2005)

LookieLoo said:
			
		

> Because straight hair is not a black/negroid/sub-saharan-African trait. If I saw a Korean man, for instance, who naturally had type-3C/4A hair, it would not be outlandish for me to assume that he is not 100% Korean.
> 
> But it is... Unless I'm mistaken, Jewish people with kinky/curly hair have some Arab/northern-African ancestry. Italians with curly/kinky hair also tend to have some African ancestry. Look far enough into their lineage and you'll find it. And, of course, there's the issue that *everyone* on the planet used to be African.



And there's no issue of everyone being of African Descent. This is a fact. Hence we all carry the DNA strands of *ALL* types hair types.  It has nothing to do with having a non-black ancestor in order to see that straight hair.

Basically in a nutshell, what throws people off is RACE. I mean, no one every ponders about a White person's straight hair. Why isn't that they have straight hair BECAUSE of their African ancestor? or why can't a Black person have straight hair because of their African descent? The color of ones skin has no determination of straightness or nappiness.

sidenote:
_
(My thoughts are more scientifically grounded (ie: migration from Africa, pangea etc.)_


----------



## Nyambura (May 13, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> I hadn't read the whole thread yet before posting that. I just saw a bad rating, several pages long, and that one post by model_chick about it being heated after coming back about 2 hrs after posting this thread. It's okay girl. After reading through your posts finally, I don't see you as being angry at anyone at all; you're just sharing your knowledge and views.


 
Thanks, Pooh. How this topic became an issue of self-hatred, along the strains of Toni Morrison's "Bluest Eye," is beyond me. At least you took the time to actually read my posts instead of going off half-cocked, so I thank you. I also realize you can only present facts as they exist; what others do with them is up to them. People can deny all they want that Black people with Type 1 hair exist (no one's saying they're common) or that the human population is genetically diverse (or even the peoples/climates of Africa). It doesn't change the fact of any of these realities. At some point it has become an exchange of diminishing returns so I will gracefully bow out. Thanks for starting the thread, Pooh. Peace.


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## CarLiTa (May 13, 2005)

i just don't care enough about this topic. whether my belief (that 100% blacks do not have type 1 hair unless there's a nutritional deficiency) is wrong, doesn't change a thing. Black people having wooly hair from the beginning of time does not make us inferior.


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## vaqtea (May 13, 2005)

I'm anemic and I havent noticed that my hair has changed or  anything   What exactly happened to your hair?
I need to be on the look out


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## lsubabiedee (May 13, 2005)

i've seen some black girls down here with straight hair that they dont thermally nor chemically straighten...these are girls with 2 black parents...but umm...since this is creole land, anything is possible


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## CarLiTa (May 13, 2005)

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


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## Spidergul (May 13, 2005)

Mestiza said:
			
		

> I have relatives w/ Type 1a - c hair. Andre and Fia's Hairtyping systems are kinda tricky to me. I'm not totally certain about my own hair type.


I dated a guy who has type 1 hair-he was straight up black not mixed.  His hair is very fine, curly and jet back like people from India.  He is very dark skinned-I like my men that way-Black no cream-thank you very much.


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## CandiceC (May 13, 2005)

Wow. This thread has a lot of views.


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## cocopuff (May 13, 2005)

My boyfriend is Haitian and has Type 1 hair; absolutely no curl definition. He tried to grow an afro, but it wouldn't sit up, it just flip-flopped all over the place.


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## senimoni (May 13, 2005)

Spidergul said:
			
		

> I dated a guy who has type 1 hair-he was straight up black not mixed.  His hair is very fine, curly and jet back like people from India.  He is very dark skinned-I like my men that way-Black no cream-thank you very much.



Curly is not type 1.


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## Ayeshia (May 13, 2005)

LookieLoo said:
			
		

> Because straight hair is not a black/negroid/sub-saharan-African trait. If I saw a Korean man, for instance, who naturally had type-3C/4A hair, it would not be outlandish for me to assume that he is not 100% Korean.
> 
> 
> 
> But it is... Unless I'm mistaken, Jewish people with kinky/curly hair have some Arab/northern-African ancestry. Italians with curly/kinky hair also tend to have some African ancestry. Look far enough into their lineage and you'll find it. And, of course, there's the issue that *everyone* on the planet used to be African.


True that I mean shoot Italy isnt THAT FAR from Africa if you think about it so why not?


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## caligirl (May 13, 2005)

Could it be that some of us envy black women with naturally straight hair?

Ok, ducking and running out of this thread.


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## katie (May 13, 2005)

Lol! I've never met a black woman with type 1 hair so I can't envy someone I've never met.


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## mahoganee (May 13, 2005)

My ex-boyfriend has type 1 hair. Both of his parents are black but I think there was some mixing somewhere down the line seeing that from a distance he could pass for white. He hated that he could never wear an afro back in the day.


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## Tiffany (May 13, 2005)

caligirl said:
			
		

> Could it be that some of us envy black women with naturally straight hair?
> 
> Ok, ducking and running out of this thread.



 There is no such thing.


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## hotshot (May 14, 2005)

i dated a bajan guy with straight hair.  they made the sorriest cornrows i did ever see!


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## toinette (May 14, 2005)

model_chick717 said:
			
		

> *Just from reading all the posts--do we not see a "common" thing....most, if not all, who posted knowing someone who is "black" with type 1 hair or close to it--all have some kind of mixed heritage.  Obviously type 1 hair is not a trait in black/negroid people....different races have different traits, just like Asians have a certain features i.e. eyes, etc..... There's nothing wrong with that....it's just reality.*



exactly. i personally dont think there are black people with type 1 hair. thats my opinion and i am sticking to it. do we see africans (i.e. subsaharan africans) who i am thinking (maybe erroneously) may be the least mixed group of black people with type 1 hair? show me one and then i'll believe that it is possible for type 1 hair to grow out of a negroid scalp.


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## MissMarie (May 14, 2005)

This thread definitely has some interesting and diverse views.

Since the OP simply asked about Black people with type 1 hair I assumed she referred to all Black people. Not just Blacks with completely unmixed parentage or ancestry, Blacks from only certain regions of Africa, or Blacks that had specific "Negroid" features. 

If we include the many limitations expressed in this thread on what a "real" Black person is how many women posting on this board are "for-real Black people"? I know no one in my family can make an indisputable claim to a completely "Negroid" African ancestry, but yet we are all black from the fairest to the darkest.

IMHO, a creole of color, a person of mixed parentage/ancestry, and a Latina of African descent (if these individuals choose to acknowledge and identify with their African/Black heritage) are all Black people. And its really weird to me for Blacks in the diaspora to judge the "Blackness" of native Africans. 

And actually, since the original question didn't define what was meant by "Black", Australian Aborigines and South Asians do kinda apply since communities in both areas identify themselves as Black (which is not to say that they consider themselves part of the African Disapora).

It is interesting to me that in the thread about Whites with type 4 hair there wasn't this debate about who qualified as a bonified white person. Historically  Italians, the Irish and Jews were not perceived to be true Whites. So I guess they aren't good examples of Whites with 4a hair, cuz they're only kinda white, huh?


To answer the original question my great-grandmother's sister had type 1 hair. I think my ggrandmother may have been kinda close, high 2 maybe? She's the fourth pic in my album, not sure if she had curled the ends.


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## Poohbear (May 14, 2005)

Why is it hard to believe there's blacks with type 1 or 2 hair (their whole head doesn't have to be totally all type 1 or 2), but you can believe there's whites with type 3 or 4 hair in their head???

*just a question to throw out there in this debate*


----------



## InsertCleverNameHere (May 14, 2005)

I don't think its common for a person without a direct mixture to have type 1 hair but i wouldnt say its impossible. I personally have never met a non- directly mixed  person with type 1 hair.

My grandmother who passed away over a decade ago had type 1 hair and considered herself to be a black woman. Yes she was mixed, she was 1/4 black and my great- grandmother did as well but she was half black (at least I think it was type 1, I should ask my mother...I'm going by photos). However, even then, my grandmothers hair was not like a white persons or asian persons despite it being straight. She used to describe her hair as like "wire brush" meaning it was thick and coarse like wire. She was not at all happy with her hairtype, lol.  I also want to add that she was born with softer wavier hair in relation to the person that said sickness can change hair type. She had smallpox as a child and her hair came out and she almost died. It grew back a different texture.

But better believe that the rest of us who have more African blood in us in my family do not have type 1 hair or even close to it. In fact only one has type 2 hair and even that is debateable, lol! So I don't understand the confusion, the more black you have, the more likely you have type 3 and 4 hair. It's not impossible to have other types, just more common.


----------



## baglady215 (May 14, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> Why is it hard to believe there's blacks with type 1 or 2 hair (their whole head doesn't have to be totally all type 1 or 2), but you can believe there's whites with type 3 or 4 hair in their head???
> 
> *just a question to throw out there in this debate*


 
Beacause I've SEEN white people with type 3 and 4 hair.  I've never SEEN a black person with type 1 or 2 hair.


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## Poohbear (May 14, 2005)

baglady215 said:
			
		

> Beacause I've SEEN white people with type 3 and 4 hair. I've never SEEN a black person with type 1 or 2 hair.


same here with me but im not doubting that there are blacks with type 1 or 2... especially after ladies here have said they seen blacks with this hair type.


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## Poohbear (May 14, 2005)

MissMarie said:
			
		

> If we include the many limitations expressed in this thread on what a "real" Black person is how many women posting on this board are "for-real Black people"? I know no one in my family can make an indisputable claim to a completely "Negroid" African ancestry, but yet we are all black from the fairest to the darkest.


 Bravo! Bravo! :notworthy Thanks for your input!


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## Dolapo (May 14, 2005)

toinette said:
			
		

> exactly. i personally dont think there are black people with type 1 hair. thats my opinion and i am sticking to it. do we see africans (i.e. subsaharan africans) who i am thinking (maybe erroneously) may be the least mixed group of black people with type 1 hair? show me one and then i'll believe that it is possible for type 1 hair to grow out of a negroid scalp.


 
i totally agree! the africans with diffrent hair types dont even have type one hair. there's always some type of curl in it


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## ccd (May 14, 2005)

MissMarie said:
			
		

> This thread definitely has some interesting and diverse views.
> 
> Since the OP simply asked about Black people with type 1 hair I assumed she referred to all Black people. Not just Blacks with completely unmixed parentage or ancestry, Blacks from only certain regions of Africa, or Blacks that had specific "Negroid" features.
> 
> ...




EXCELLANT! Post....... I completely agree that being black should not be limited to only people in Africa....that is not really fair or accurate.  In any case I have seen a black women with type 1...she is a cousin who lives in Haiti....she is  a dark skinned lady with straight hair.....and yes, you can debate her heritage but I dont see the point.

Also, my grandmother*s sister and their mother had straight hair (as for my greatgrand mother, Im never met her but in pictures you can see her hair texture is straight and could be wavy so who knows


I know that in society, you can be the lightest black person in the room, lighter than a white person and you are still considered black by some, not black enough by others

so are these questions really fair, considering the history of the world? people migrate, intermix and *new* types of folks are created so whos definition is right.


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## katie (May 14, 2005)

MissMarie said:
			
		

> And actually, since the original question didn't define what was meant by "Black", Australian Aborigines and South Asians do kinda apply since communities in both areas identify themselves as Black (which is not to say that they consider themselves part of the African Disapora).
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> You've actually heard a South Asian call themself black? They always refer to themselves as browns in my experience. Maybe it's just a Canadian thing.


----------



## Vintagecoilylocks (May 14, 2005)

Well I would like to ask all the poeple who say it is not 100% Black to have straight hair this.  At what point did the black and kink develope its characteristics you claim are exclusive.  I believe we are from one female and male from the african continent.  I am traditional bible version but irrigardless many believe the differances evolved due to environment.  So question which came first the kink/black  or the straight./white?  How do you know "100%Blacks"  did not originally have straight hair and light skin and it evolved due to environment to kink/black.  Then whites just kept the original?  this could account for Aborigines STILL having straight hair while only their skin adjusted to environment. Also the claims from Africans of no known mixture yet many being lighter with straight to straight hair.  It is well known that the Moors occupied(yes occupied) deep into the european continent for hundreds of years.  So maybe whites with kink just got a new dose of the newer type hair.    

         This is fun isn't it.


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## toinette (May 14, 2005)

katie said:
			
		

> MissMarie said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## toinette (May 14, 2005)

MissMarie said:
			
		

> This thread definitely has some interesting and diverse views.
> 
> Since the OP simply asked about Black people with type 1 hair I assumed she referred to all Black people. Not just Blacks with completely unmixed parentage or ancestry, Blacks from only certain regions of Africa, or Blacks that had specific "Negroid" features.
> 
> ...



think of this from a scienctific point of view. for research purposes, if you were trying to figure out if it was possible for black poeople to grow type 1 hair, would u include creoles in your sample??? no, because they have mixed ancestry. would you include a black latina??? maybe not because they are of mixed ancestry. african-americans and caribs??? we know the sotory on that one. nobody is sayign they arent black, but for the purposes of answerign your question you are gonna want a sample that is most representative of your target population, and those people just dont cut it. of the peope who do, subsaharan africans, i have never seen any with type 1 hair. maybe there are, show me a pic and i'll believe it.


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## toinette (May 14, 2005)

baglady215 said:
			
		

> Beacause I've SEEN white people with type 3 and 4 hair.  I've never SEEN a black person with type 1 or 2 hair.



i agree (well i've seen blacks with type 2 hair). i've seen a white person withtype 3 or 4 hair.


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## Vintagecoilylocks (May 14, 2005)

I am just trying to say that it is not a given that the original man was dark with kinky hair.  So for those who do believe in the single line of genes it could be that the original was fair with straighter hair.  Looking at the peoples of the area like the so called origins of man or the Garden af Eden if you will they are light skinned with straighter and dark hair.  The extemes such as very dark and kink to very pale or colorless and white straight straight hair are further from those areas. And are the extreme north and south.  Thus the need to evolve in further different directions for environment.  Then as food and wars the continuing to reintroduce the newer developements back into the original.  One could not say that Arabs have straight hair because of being mixed with white.


----------



## Tiffany (May 14, 2005)

Vintagecoilylocks said:
			
		

> Well I would like to ask all the poeple who say it is not 100% Black to have straight hair this.  At what point did the black and kink develope its characteristics you claim are exclusive.  I believe we are from one female and male from the african continent.  I am traditional bible version but irrigardless many believe the differances evolved due to environment.  So question which came first the kink/black  or the straight./white?  How do you know "100%Blacks"  did not originally have straight hair and light skin and it evolved due to environment to kink/black.  Then whites just kept the original?  this could account for Aborigines STILL having straight hair while only their skin adjusted to environment. Also the claims from Africans of no known mixture yet many being lighter with straight to straight hair.  It is well known that the Moors occupied(yes occupied) deep into the european continent for hundreds of years.  So maybe whites with kink just got a new dose of the newer type hair.
> 
> This is fun isn't it.




I do not believe a Black person can have straight hair without a chemical.  My belief will NOT change. IF a "Black" person has naturally straight hair, they are not all Black. They got the hair texture from White, Indian, etc. blood. The "One Drop Rule" does not work for me. A person that is 1/4 Black is not a Black person. I do not remember seeing any slaves with bone straight hair. This issue is quite hilarious.


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## MissMarie (May 14, 2005)

Yes I know of South Asians that refer to themselves as Black. (My dad's cousin married one, she considers her race to be Black and her ethnicity to be Indian) There are communities in the south of India where the people identify as Black, some are of distant African ancestry, others not. Likely the majority of Indians would not refer to themselves as Black, but that is a large and diverse nation and there are many communities that exist over there that are not represented in the immigrant communities in the west.


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## ccd (May 14, 2005)

What I find most  interesting in this thread is to see how unaware we are of the diapora and of ourselves as black women, people, whatever....no wonder we can be fooled into believing whatever the dominant culture wants, history can be rewritten because we buy anything 

and what it means to be black......and also our willingness to dismiss certain people as not THAT black, or not as black based on features, texture hair ect....

There seems to be a general consensus that black comes in One Size and One
Image......Eyptians are black arent they? and I dont believe they All Look one particular way.....Aborigianal people ....arent they black?  Anyone see a person from Madagascar (which is located in Southern Africa, near Mozambique....and yes, they were a french colony at one point so I guess they arent really Black either)


Also, the original thread didnt get so much attention perhaps because white culture is define and accepted, no one argues with what is considered white.....no onem questioned whether the Jews with kinky hair are part black ( Aka....semites/semi)

It seems that everything in between Black and White is an other


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## MissMarie (May 14, 2005)

toinette said:
			
		

> think of this from a scienctific point of view. for research purposes, if you were trying to figure out if it was possible for black poeople to grow type 1 hair, would u include creoles in your sample??? no, because they have mixed ancestry. would you include a black latina??? maybe not because they are of mixed ancestry. african-americans and caribs??? we know the sotory on that one. nobody is sayign they arent black, but for the purposes of answerign your question you are gonna want a sample that is most representative of your target population, and those people just dont cut it. of the peope who do, subsaharan africans, i have never seen any with type 1 hair. maybe there are, show me a pic and i'll believe it.



If you think about the issue from a scientific basis you'll completely undermine what you are trying to research. There is no scientific basis for this concept of "for-real Blacks", or "Negroid Africans". The phenotypic diversity that people fixate on is simply a result of humans adapting to different environments. Actual genetic diversity is greatest within Africa, within the very regions that we're trying to stereotype as having the only "real" Black people. These people have adapted, changed, migrated and intermarried as have most communities of humans, such as the other African groups that are being deemed here as not Black enough. There are no, and have never been strict boundaries between populations, so there is nothing to guarantee that all sub-Saharan groups are only descended from ancestors that looked exactly as they look now.
If people from Somalia and Ethopia are not really Black because there has been some intermixture over the millenia with Arab groups, then Italians, Jews and Gypsies are not really White and should not have been included in the other discussion.

There is no biological/scientific basis for race at all. Race is a social construct. So to answer your question, yes I would consider African-Americans, Creoles, Afro-Latinas, etc to be Black because socially there are Black. The OP didn't ask if people knew of unmixed, Black, sub-Saharan Africans with type 1 hair, she just asked about Blacks period. So if individuals in these groups have the ability to grow type 1 hair, then I would say, yes there are Black people that have that type of hair. I don't believe in this idea of quintessential Blacks, to me I'm just as Black as an individual from the Congo. They obviously have greater African ancestry then I (;-)) but IMO "Blackness" is not dependent on blood quantification, its useless (to me) to go digging through someone's family tree to try and gauge how Black they are. Someone can't be more Black than someone else, Black is Black.

Also, for those against the idea of Black being inclusive (one-drop rule), what would happen to the Black community if all those who weren't considered Black enough were told they couldn't be Black anymore? In the Western Hemisphere there basically wouldn't be a Black community anymore. I think its a slap in the face to those who came before us to create these restrictions on who is or isn't a real Black person given that they struggled to make things better for all people of African descent. In the US at least, many of our greatest leaders were individuals who could not boast of a completely unmixed African ancestry. IMHO Black is Black whether its blue or brown eyes, straight, curly or kinky hair, thin or full features.

(sorry this is so long)


----------



## Poohbear (May 14, 2005)

ccd said:
			
		

> What I find most interesting in this thread is to see how unaware we are of the diapora and of ourselves as black women, people, whatever....no wonder we can be fooled into believing whatever the dominant culture wants, history can be rewritten because we buy anything
> 
> and what it means to be black......and also our willingness to dismiss certain people as not THAT black, or not as black based on features, texture hair ect....
> 
> ...


Great great post!   You've hit many points that I wanted to make!


----------



## toinette (May 14, 2005)

MissMarie said:
			
		

> If you think about the issue from a scientific basis you'll completely undermine what you are trying to research. There is no scientific basis for this concept of "for-real Blacks", or "Negroid Africans". The phenotypic diversity that people fixate on is simply a result of humans adapting to different environments. Actual genetic diversity is greatest within Africa, within the very regions that we're trying to stereotype as having the only "real" Black people. These people have adapted, changed, migrated and intermarried as have most communities of humans, such as the other African groups that are being deemed here as not Black enough. There are no, and have never been strict boundaries between populations, so there is nothing to guarantee that all sub-Saharan groups are only descended from ancestors that looked exactly as they look now.
> If people from Somalia and Ethopia are not really Black because there has been some intermixture over the millenia with Arab groups, then Italians, Jews and Gypsies are not really White and should not have been included in the other discussion.
> 
> There is no biological/scientific basis for race at all. Race is a social construct. So to answer your question, yes I would consider African-Americans, Creoles, Afro-Latinas, etc to be Black because socially there are Black. The OP didn't ask if people knew of unmixed, Black, sub-Saharan Africans with type 1 hair, she just asked about Blacks period. So if individuals in these groups have the ability to grow type 1 hair, then I would say, yes there are Black people that have that type of hair. I don't believe in this idea of quintessential Blacks, to me I'm just as Black as an individual from the Congo. They obviously have greater African ancestry then I (;-)) but IMO "Blackness" is not dependent on blood quantification, its useless (to me) to go digging through someone's family tree to try and gauge how Black they are. Someone can't be more Black than someone else, Black is Black.
> ...



i agree with what you are saying. when i said "scientific" i meant lookign at it from the scientific methodology of conducting research and creole people and black latinas would not be the most representative sample frame. its like if you were researchign if it was possibel for asians to have non-slanted eyes, you would not included people who are of mixed heritage, even if it was 5 or 6 generations back because that would not be a represenative sample. i hope i'm making sense.


----------



## Poohbear (May 14, 2005)

MissMarie said:
			
		

> If you think about the issue from a scientific basis you'll completely undermine what you are trying to research. There is no scientific basis for this concept of "for-real Blacks", or "Negroid Africans". The phenotypic diversity that people fixate on is simply a result of humans adapting to different environments. Actual genetic diversity is greatest within Africa, within the very regions that we're trying to stereotype as having the only "real" Black people. These people have adapted, changed, migrated and intermarried as have most communities of humans, such as the other African groups that are being deemed here as not Black enough. There are no, and have never been strict boundaries between populations, so there is nothing to guarantee that all sub-Saharan groups are only descended from ancestors that looked exactly as they look now.
> If people from Somalia and Ethopia are not really Black because there has been some intermixture over the millenia with Arab groups, then Italians, Jews and Gypsies are not really White and should not have been included in the other discussion.
> 
> There is no biological/scientific basis for race at all. Race is a social construct. So to answer your question, yes I would consider African-Americans, Creoles, Afro-Latinas, etc to be Black because socially there are Black. The OP didn't ask if people knew of unmixed, Black, sub-Saharan Africans with type 1 hair, she just asked about Blacks period. So if individuals in these groups have the ability to grow type 1 hair, then I would say, yes there are Black people that have that type of hair. I don't believe in this idea of quintessential Blacks, to me I'm just as Black as an individual from the Congo. They obviously have greater African ancestry then I (;-)) but IMO "Blackness" is not dependent on blood quantification, its useless (to me) to go digging through someone's family tree to try and gauge how Black they are. Someone can't be more Black than someone else, Black is Black.
> ...


Preach it girl! Another very good post!!!!


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## Porsche19 (May 14, 2005)

Black people are muti-racial.  All of the examples I read on the first page kinda point out the fact that the black people are muti-racial.... well who the hell isn't?  No matter where you go the majority of black people are mixed with SOMETHING.  So saying they have straight hair because they are mixed is a little dumb to me.  A good of those people aren't mixed anymore than the average person is.

I know 1 black man and 1 black woman with straight hair.  Another woman has slightly wavy hair... like type 1b or c if that hairtype exists.  The funny thing is all of the bi-racial people that I know have curly hair.


----------



## kristina (May 14, 2005)

Okay I debated on whether to post since this thread is a bit salty- but I couldn't resist
Just wanted to say that I have seen a quite few blacks (well persons with some obvious african ancestry) in both the Domincan Republic and Brazil with type 1 hair. I'm pretty darn sure the girls in Brazil were type 1 because their hair was wet on the beach and as it dried it stayed bone straight. And these girls were definately black- as dark or slightly lighter than me with other typically black features. For some reason, my personal observance is that straight/ wavy hair tends to appear more in blacks mixed with portugese and spanish blood. This only reconfirms that blacks with straight hair tend to be mixed as straight hair not a typically african characteristic. Who would have thought that to be such a controversial assertion???


----------



## toinette (May 14, 2005)

kristina said:
			
		

> This only reconfirms that blacks with straight hair tend to be mixed as straight hair not a typically african characteristic. Who would have thought that to be such a controversial assertion???



exactly. i dont see why people cant see that either.


----------



## Poohbear (May 14, 2005)

Porsche19 said:
			
		

> Black people are muti-racial. All of the examples I read on the first page kinda point out the fact that the black people are muti-racial.... well who the hell isn't? No matter where you go the majority of black people are mixed with SOMETHING. So saying they have straight hair because they are mixed is a little dumb to me. A good of those people aren't mixed anymore than the average person is.


great post! 

guess what ladies? i have some type 2 in my head. and im black.


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## Tiffany (May 14, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> great post!
> 
> guess what ladies? i have some type 2 in my head. and im black.


----------



## Poohbear (May 14, 2005)

Tiffany said:
			
		

>


----------



## Tiffany (May 14, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

>



Whatever gets you through the day!


----------



## Poohbear (May 14, 2005)

Tiffany said:
			
		

> Whatever gets you through the day!


Heehee!


----------



## kristina (May 14, 2005)

Porsche19 said:
			
		

> Black people are muti-racial.  All of the examples I read on the first page kinda point out the fact that the black people are muti-racial.... well who the hell isn't?  No matter where you go the majority of black people are mixed with SOMETHING.  So saying they have straight hair because they are mixed is a little dumb to me.  A good of those people aren't mixed anymore than the average person is.
> 
> I know 1 black man and 1 black woman with straight hair.  Another woman has slightly wavy hair... like type 1b or c if that hairtype exists.  The funny thing is all of the bi-racial people that I know have curly hair.



The point to be made from the statement 'black people with straight hair are mixed'  does not also imply that blacks without straight hair are not mixed. Yes, I know that many blacks are mixed with other stuff but I also know that many blacks in America, mixed or not, do not have straight hair. And why are we so keen to point out the fact that we are mixed? Do we get some sort of award for our non typically black traits or mixed ancestry?
It's threads like these that make me wonder how many of us (black folks) still cling to the notion that African features are not attractive. 
And no, the last comments are not directed at you personally Porsche.


----------



## Tiffany (May 14, 2005)

kristina said:
			
		

> It's threads like these that make me wonder how many of us (black folks) still cling to the notion that African features are not attractive.




You can say that again! There are many who feel this way. erplexed


----------



## Poohbear (May 14, 2005)

Tiffany said:
			
		

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *kristina*
> _It's threads like these that make me wonder how many of us (black folks) still cling to the notion that African features are not attractive. _
> 
> ...


Who said anything about African features being unattractive? Did I miss something in this thread?  The purpose of this thread certainly wasn't to put down African features. That surely is ridiculous for someone to associate African features with unattractiveness.


----------



## Porsche19 (May 14, 2005)

Just stating that the majority of black people are mixed with something besides negroid genes and pointing out that we have many different features because of it is not saying that negroid features are unnatractive.

We need to realize that yes, many people feel badly about black features... but not all of us do.  It is possible for black people to acknowlegde the fact that black people are a very diverse group not because "white is right" but because it's a FACT.


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## qtgirl (May 14, 2005)

Thank You!  For pointing out the obvious that so many ppl. seem to have missed.   



			
				kristina said:
			
		

> The point to be made from the statement 'black people with straight hair are mixed'  does not also imply that blacks without straight hair are not mixed. *Yes, I know that many blacks are mixed with other stuff but I also know that many blacks in America, mixed or not, do not have straight hair. And why are we so keen to point out the fact that we are mixed? Do we get some sort of award for our non typically black traits or mixed ancestry?*
> It's threads like these that make me wonder how many of us (black folks) still cling to the notion that African features are not attractive.
> And no, the last comments are not directed at you personally Porsche.


----------



## Mestiza (May 15, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> Does anyone know *any black people with Type 1 hair*???
> 
> 
> 
> ...



After reading through this thread, I had to go back b/c I thought that I had incorrectly replied to the question / topic, but, can see that I had not. LOL!


----------



## FlowerHair (May 15, 2005)

Tiffany said:
			
		

> I do not believe a Black person can have straight hair without a chemical.  My belief will NOT change. IF a "Black" person has naturally straight hair, they are not all Black. They got the hair texture from White, Indian, etc. blood. The "One Drop Rule" does not work for me. A person that is 1/4 Black is not a Black person. I do not remember seeing any slaves with bone straight hair. This issue is quite hilarious.



Oh but there were so called "white slaves" who were actually mixed enough to look white. Surely you have heard about them? 
The famous Sally Hemingson was described as "mighty white with straight long black hair". Even if they were mostly white by heritage they were still slaves.


----------



## Tiffany (May 15, 2005)

FlowerHair said:
			
		

> Oh but there were so called "white slaves" who were actually mixed enough to look white. Surely you have heard about them?
> The famous Sally Hemingson was described as "mighty white with straight long black hair". Even if they were mostly white by heritage they were still slaves.



Girl, whatever! They are half Black! So many of you have issues.


----------



## FlowerHair (May 15, 2005)

And why do people here insist on calling Ethiopians, Somalians and Eritreans non-black or mixed? That's very interesting to me. Is it because they don't look like West Africans or Central Africans? 
Guess what - West Africans don't really look like Central Africans either. It's natural because Africa is the world's second largest continent. 

Ethiopians do not look *AT ALL * Arabic IMO. Arabs are larger in their build/taller and heavier, have large noses and are very hairy. Most black Africans are not very hairy at all, and as far as I know Ethiopians have small noses that do not resemble Arab noses in the least. I really don't see the resemblance. Ethiopians have small triangular faces with pointy chins, high cheekbones and wide foreheads, Arabs have a totally different shape. Arabs are Muslim, Ethiopians are Christian. Where are the similarities?


----------



## FlowerHair (May 15, 2005)

Tiffany said:
			
		

> Girl, whatever! They are half Black! So many of you have issues.



I know that they were half Black and even less, but they were still slaves. That was all I wanted to say, since you said there were no slaves with straight hair. Please don't get mad


----------



## qtgirl (May 15, 2005)

I don't understand that either.  I think it's because most black Americans experience with Africans are limited.  And because that's what they've been told.  I agree that East Africans and Arabs look very different from one another.

I will say that the East Africans that I have seen they had curly hair, but not straight.



			
				FlowerHair said:
			
		

> And why do people here insist on calling Ethiopians, Somalians and Eritreans non-black or mixed? That's very interesting to me. Is it because they don't look like West Africans or Central Africans?
> Guess what - West Africans don't really look like Central Africans either. It's natural because Africa is the world's second largest continent.
> 
> Ethiopians do not look *AT ALL * Arabic IMO. Arabs are larger in their build/taller and heavier, have large noses and are very hairy. Most black Africans are not very hairy at all, and as far as I know Ethiopians have small noses that do not resemble Arab noses in the least. I really don't see the resemblance. Ethiopians have small triangular faces with pointy chins, high cheekbones and wide foreheads, Arabs have a totally different shape. Arabs are Muslim, Ethiopians are Christian. Where are the similarities?


----------



## Tru_Mind (May 15, 2005)

I guess you first have to realize what the meaning of "Black/ Black American" is. IMO Black people are a mixture of one or more than one race with African being the dominate race in some cases. 

Some people think that my mom is Mexican/Spanish (we think that it's out of pure ignorance)...and both of her parents are black and her grandparents are black. Yeah, her great grandparents are mixed on both sides...but so what...they called themselves Black...THEREFORE THEY ARE BLACK...MIXED OR NOT. Most, if not all, people that consider themselves to be Black Americans are all mixed at some point. Who are we to say that they are not Black because of their hair or skin color when we are mixed ourselves...and at what point do we decide whether they are Black or not. Black Americans come in all colors, and have all hair textures. IMO, if that person say that they are Black...they are black...mixed or not...*PERIOD*.

PB, is asking if we know or have seen people that "say" that they are black...THEREFORE THEY ARE BLACK whether their mixed or not (because we all are mixed) that have type 1 hair.

*THERE IS NOOO SUCH THING AS 100%, 98% OR WHATEVER % BLACK!! WE AS BLACK AMERICANS ARE ALL MIXED AT SOME POINT.*

IMO Black is more of a culture than a race because of the mixtures...and since we all don't have the same mixtures IMO Black is not and never will be a definite race...therefore theirs no such thing as 100% Black.

The Black American race is a mixture. Africa is another story. Those beautiful people, their hair textures, and features originate from Africa. I have learned that climate and whatever else determines our features and hair texture...etc. Yes, I'm sure that eventually some Africans from whatever part of Africa have mixed with other races...but again because climate is the cause of change in all races those Africans with the straighter or curly hair do originate from their particular area. Being in that particular climate for thousands of years has changed their features and hair...therefore they along with their changed features orignate from that area/that climate.*ALL NATURAL CHANGE*

Personally, I have not seen or know a Black American with type 1...but I don't know for sure, because who doesn't straighten their hair? Some people that we think are type 2 may be type 1. Only they and their stylists know for sure.

I don't understand how some can think that is impossible for a Black American to have type 1 hair. Ladies it’s not impossible. I'm sure that they are many...we just can't tell. 

Also, as I've said in an earlier post a Black girl from my high school was the only one in her family with blue eyes. She's has known black features and type 4 hair. Why is it impossible for a Black person to inherit type 1 hair wheter they have been mixed or not. Yeah it's rare...but it's possible.


----------



## A_Christian (May 15, 2005)

I only know of one person of possible African descent with type one hair. She is from Jordan and I'm almost positive I remember her saying that she considers herself to be black even though she's not African American. (I say possible African descent because I have no idea if she has African lineage or if many people from Jordan have African, Arab, or Indian ancestors) but I'm assuming that since I'm pretty sure she identifies with being black and that she's dark that there's a good chance there's some African blood in there somewhere.

I have not yet seen a black American with type 1 hair but I'm sure that there could be some out there I just haven't seen them yet, Lol. 

I am still confused about whether Aborigine people consider themselves to be black or not but I have seen pictures of some of them with possibly type 1 hair, many more looked like type 2's (slightly wavy). 


This whole discussion is interesting but puts me on guard about talking about this type of stuff in real life. What I mean is that as with the case of the girl I knew from high school, some people of color from other countries consider themselves to be black and some don't no matter how dark they are and I can't keep up with which ones do and which don't. There's not a thing wrong with being black but do most darker skinned people from places such as the middle east consider themselves to be black or not? 

I know that race is a social construct but I'm getting so confused about the definition of terms like black and white. Is the modern day definition of being black or white etc... more about color than culture or vice versa? I shoulda paid more attention during those darn anthropology classes, Lol .


----------



## PretteePlease (May 15, 2005)

my friends niece has type 1/2  hair her brother is black not mixed with type 3 hair her mother is black not mixed with type 4 hair. 

her hair is type 1 all around the edges of her head and type 2 in the middle only


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## ellennicole (May 16, 2005)

This may be off subject..   but, when I was in college, alot of my African friends were fascinated by African American hair.   Seriously. I thought it was the weirdest thing.  They  had so many questions about the "texture" of our hair, and what we did with it.


----------



## caress (May 16, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> I also wish ALL black people in this world could see those pics too!



I wish all black people could learn to accept and even appreciate type 4 hair.

ETA: But that's not what this thread is about.  Sorry,


----------



## Poohbear (May 16, 2005)

caress said:
			
		

> I wish all black people could learn to accept and even appreciate type 4 hair.


Me too. When I said "I wish all blacks could see those pics" that was because I would like others to see that not all blacks have type 4 hair. This thread was not about not appreciating type 4 hair though. It was simply about whether you've seen a black person with type 1 hair. Nothing more. Me personally, I admire and appreciate all hair types that black people represent.


----------



## caress (May 16, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> Me too. When I said "I wish all blacks could see those pics" that was because I would like others to see that not all blacks have type 4 hair. This thread was not about not appreciating type 4 hair though. It was simply about whether you've seen a black person with type 1 hair. Nothing more. Me personally, I admire and appreciate all hair types that black people represent.



I edited that post reading your response.


----------



## Poohbear (May 16, 2005)

caress said:
			
		

> I edited that post reading your response.


It's okay honey.  As you and I have noticed, threads can go off subject all the time.


----------



## WaterMoccasin (May 16, 2005)

I almost didn't reply since the responses are so numerous and points have been made that I would have made.
However, I just wanted to say that I too, personally have seen Type 1 hair black people- 2 types: 1. the bi-racial types (for example, a Chinese/black friend of mine from Trinidad and other 'mixed' 'blacks') 2. and from the motherland types-  honestly don't know if they are mixed or not from way back when or which African country they were from (but most of the Africans in the state were from Somalia and Ethiopia. Some from New Guinea), but  looking at them face-on, there is no indication of any 'other'- they looked about as 'negroid' as you can get. But when I caught a glimpse of the hair underneath the headcloth, I was like  . Ok, in all honesty, it could've been type 2a since I didn't see the whole thing out and down. But from what I saw, the hair they had is what you'd see on a lot of East Indians- thick, jet-black, silky hair. It looked like 1b (which is straight but like, coarse right- thick, dense). Hair like the darker ones here (especially the one with the red dot), whatever type you call it:





(These are Indian children by the way)


It's simply not impossible for a 'black' person to have natural type 1  hair, as it's not impossible for a 'white' person to have natural type 4. Not common, but certainly not impossible!


----------



## monister (May 16, 2005)

Dolapo said:
			
		

> Im african and i have type 3 natural hair with some 4 at the back. There is no one from my heritage who is mixed and im pretty sure of that. I know I got my hair from my dad who got his from his mother. I should take a picture of their natural hair but they dont live here....So one doesnt have to be mixed to have a type of hair that is different from type four. I dont know where the type 3 hair came from.....In the northern part of Nigeria, the hausas and fulanis have type 2 and 3 hair and im very sure they're not mixed. Arabs never came to my country only white people and they didnt stay in the North. i think its people in the northern part of Africa that mostly have different hair types. i met a woman from tanzania who has type 2 hair but im not sure if she's mixed or not. Im thinking it depends on the weather or climate. Because its really dry and dusty in the North, nature may have let their hair be a little curly so it doesnt hold sand and dirt and so it doesnt dry out. who knows......


 arabs did come to parts of northern nigeria... 

monister


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## monister (May 16, 2005)

Tiffany said:
			
		

> I do not believe a Black person can have straight hair without a chemical.  My belief will NOT change. IF a "Black" person has naturally straight hair, they are not all Black. They got the hair texture from White, Indian, etc. blood. The "One Drop Rule" does not work for me. A person that is 1/4 Black is not a Black person. I do not remember seeing any slaves with bone straight hair. This issue is quite hilarious.


 you were alive during the period of time the first slave came to the US? 

monister


----------



## Poohbear (May 16, 2005)

Tiffany said:
			
		

> I do not believe a Black person can have straight hair without a chemical. My belief will NOT change. *IF a "Black" person has naturally straight hair, they are not all Black.* They got the hair texture from White, Indian, etc. blood. The "One Drop Rule" does not work for me. A person that is 1/4 Black is not a Black person. I do not remember seeing any slaves with bone straight hair. This issue is quite hilarious.


 What do u consider "all Black"?  How can a Black person be all black or 100% black??? How come someone that is mixed with something else cannot be considered black? Black is just a category people are placed in because of COMMON traits.  That doesn't mean every black person should possess these traits. That's impossible.  

For example, a common black feature is big lips.  I don't have big lips, does that make me "not-all-the-way Black"? Certainly not!


----------



## kristina (May 16, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> Me too. When I said "I wish all blacks could see those pics" that was because I would like others to see that not all blacks have type 4 hair. This thread was not about not appreciating type 4 hair though. It was simply about whether you've seen a black person with type 1 hair. Nothing more. Me personally, I admire and appreciate all hair types that black people represent.



This was in part the reason I asked what's the prize for having Type 1 hair. I agree with qt that it did sound like people were trying to prove something and it does to me express some internal issues considering the context- people started posting pictures of children with straightish hair, it's immediately followed by posts of admiration and then you expressed that you wished everyone could see their hair. It definately seemed that you felt that there was something particular to be gained/benefited from all black people seeing blacks with type 1 hair. My instant reaction was why? Is this somehow affirming in some way? It's like when black people start bragging about their or their families non-african traits- yeah maybe it's a statement of fact but it's still culturally loaded. Of course, you could have meant that it would have been interesting for blacks to see (the way it's interesting to see a person with violet eyes). But why all blacks? But considering the context, I think it was reasonable to conclude that statement to at least on some level exuded some unnecessary deferrence to type 1/ type 2 hair (and that's my diplomatic why of putting it).
And with respect to people noting that people with type 1 hair are mixed, I think this statement is responsive to the posts made that race is a purely a social construct and therefore associating any traits with races is bogus (that's how I understood the statement especially when someone posted that it's a stereotype to associate straight hair with Asians). Basically, what the comments express to me is that one doesn't need to understand phenotypes to notice a correlation between straight hair blacks and non-african ancestry. Not saying it's impossible because I don't know that, but my own eyes and experience indicate that 'pure' Africans don't have straight hair.


----------



## Poohbear (May 16, 2005)

kristina said:
			
		

> This was in part the reason I asked what's the prize for having Type 1 hair. I agree with qt that it did sound like people were trying to prove something and it does to me express some internal issues considering the context- people started posting pictures of children with straightish hair, it's immediately followed by posts of admiration and then you expressed that you wished everyone could see their hair. It definately seemed that you felt that there was something particular to be gained/benefited from all black people seeing blacks with type 1 hair. My instant reaction was why? Is this somehow affirming in some way? It's like when black people start bragging about their or their families non-african traits- yeah maybe it's a statement of fact but it's still culturally loaded. Of course, you could have meant that it would have been interesting for blacks to see (the way it's interesting to see a person with violet eyes). But why all blacks? But considering the context, I think it was reasonable to conclude that statement to at least on some level exuded some unnecessary deferrence to type 1/ type 2 hair (and that's my diplomatic why of putting it).
> And with respect to people noting that people with type 1 hair are mixed, I think this statement is responsive to the posts made that race is a purely a social construct and therefore associating any traits with races is bogus (that's how I understood the statement especially when someone posted that it's a stereotype to associate straight hair with Asians). Basically, what the comments express to me is that one doesn't need to understand phenotypes to notice a correlation between straight hair blacks and non-african ancestry. Not saying it's impossible because I don't know that, but my own eyes and experience indicate that 'pure' Africans don't have straight hair.


Oh okay. Well when I said that little sentence, I was not implying that type 1 was any better than any other hair type.  I wished all blacks could see the pics to show that black people can have different hair textures besides 3 or 4. And also the fact that those pics of those little kids were cute.  I can only speak for myself. I don't know about anyone elses' responses you have seen that relate to what you are saying.

btw, what is a pure African?  I just asked if anyone has seen any BLACKS with straight hair.  That could be a black person in any population group in this world.


----------



## Tiffany (May 16, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> What do u consider "all Black"?  How can a Black person be all black or 100% black??? How come someone that is mixed with something else cannot be considered black? Black is just a category people are placed in because of COMMON traits.  That doesn't mean every black person should possess these traits. That's impossible.
> 
> For example, a common black feature is big lips.  I don't have big lips, does that make me "not-all-the-way Black"? Certainly not!




Girl let it go! Straight hair is NOT a Black trait. I believe what I want & you believe what you want! Use some of your energy to start another one of your "spin off" threads. lol


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## Tiffany (May 16, 2005)

monister said:
			
		

> you were alive during the period of time the first slave came to the US?
> 
> monister




Whatever! They ALL had nappy hair.


----------



## baglady215 (May 16, 2005)

Maybe someone should define "black" and then pose the question...  The same word can have different meanings to different peole...


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## Poohbear (May 16, 2005)

Tiffany said:
			
		

> Girl let it go! Straight hair is NOT a Black trait. I believe what I want & you believe what you want! Use some of your energy to start another one of your "spin off" threads. lol


I did not say straight hair was a black trait. It's actually a Caucasiod trait. I'm just saying a black person can have a Non-Negroid (non-Black) trait. Do you get what I'm saying? Not trying to argue with you at all.  Another example that's a little off topic here... 

Dark skin is a Black trait. 
Light skin is not a Black trait. 
Look at all the light skinned people who consider themselves Black. A light skinned person can be Black even though they do not have dark skin. Does that help you understand what I'm trying to say?


----------



## MissMarie (May 16, 2005)

Okay, I'm glad to see that I interpreted the original question correctly. One would assume that if you were referring to a narrow definition of black that you'd specify what you meant and to which population you were referring.



			
				Poohbear said:
			
		

> btw, what is a pure African?  I just asked if anyone has seen any BLACKS with straight hair.  That could be a black person in any population group in this world.



I'd like an answer to that too, what makes someone completely African or all black?


----------



## Poohbear (May 16, 2005)

MissMarie said:
			
		

> Okay, I'm glad to see that I interpreted the original question correctly. One would assume that if you were referring to a narrow definition of black that you'd specify what you meant and to which population you were referring.


Thank you!  I was just referring to Blacks in general. It could be any type, sub-type, micro-type, mixed, or what have you.


----------



## kristina (May 16, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> Oh okay. Well when I said that little sentence, I was not implying that type 1 was any better than any other hair type.  I wished all blacks could see the pics to show that black people can have different hair textures besides 3 or 4. And also the fact that those pics of those little kids were cute.  I can only speak for myself. I don't know about anyone elses' responses you have seen that relate to what you are saying.
> 
> btw, what is a pure African?  I just asked if anyone has seen any BLACKS with straight hair.  That could be a black person in any population group in this world.



The second paragraph was responding to Porsche who said that it was silly for others to mention that the blacks they've seen with straight hair have non-African ancestry because we're all mixed. There was a subdiscussion of race where some posters (I forgot the name) rejected the statement that straight hair is not a negroid feature. Actually the point Porsche was making doesn't conflict with the statement that straight hair isn't a negroid trait- if we're mixed, then the fact someone black has straight hair or blue eyes doesn't mean that straight hair or blue eyes are negroid traits, it means it's a recessive gene trait that many of us being mixed have but is rarely seen because it's recessive. I don't have any scientific research but at minimum a pure African (if there's such a thing) is someone who can trace their blood line and would not see causacian and mongoloid blood, someone I'd posit is extremely unlikely to have type 1 hair.
To the question you asked I answered that question yes, I have seen Brazilian and Dominican blacks with straight hair (now that I think of it a girl in my class is from Barbodos and her hair appears type 1 as well).   So to beat a dead horse, blacks can have type 1 hair but it's not an African trait.


----------



## MissMarie (May 16, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> I did not say straight hair was a black trait. It's actually a Caucasiod trait. I'm just saying a black person can have a Non-Negroid (non-Black) trait. Do you get what I'm saying? Not trying to argue with you at all.  Another example that's a little off topic here...
> 
> Dark skin is a Black trait.
> Light skin is not a Black trait.
> Look at all the light skinned people who consider themselves Black. A light skinned person can be Black even though they do not have dark skin. Does that help you understand what I'm trying to say?



At some point don't these traits become black traits because populations black people have them?  

If you don't have full lips, but yet you're black do you have "white" lips or are you a black person that simply has a different feature than some other black people?

Blacks are diverse. There are some features that are more common among Africans and the diaspora, and things that are generalizable, such as darker skin tones, but there does not exist some checklist where a person must have a, b, and c to be black (or a true African) and if one is missing they aren't on the list. I don't get the limitations people put on what is black, saying that some people are more black than others. Its akin to saying, on a socioeconomic level, that because a disproportionate number of blacks in American cities are working and lower class that therefore that is a defining social characteristic of blackness, and that anyone who is outside of that isn't as black as others regardless of how they identify and how they are viewed in the broader society.


----------



## LookieLoo (May 17, 2005)

kristina said:
			
		

> The second paragraph was responding to Porsche who said that it was silly for others to mention that the blacks they've seen with straight hair have non-African ancestry because we're all mixed. There was a subdiscussion of race where some posters (I forgot the name) rejected the statement that straight hair is not a negroid feature. Actually the point Porsche was making doesn't conflict with the statement that straight hair isn't a negroid trait- if we're mixed, then the fact someone black has straight hair or blue eyes doesn't mean that straight hair or blue eyes are negroid traits, it means it's a recessive gene trait that many of us being mixed have but is rarely seen because it's recessive. I don't have any scientific research but at minimum a pure African (if there's such a thing) is someone who can trace their blood line and would not see causacian and mongoloid blood, someone I'd posit is extremely unlikely to have type 1 hair.
> To the question you asked I answered that question yes, I have seen Brazilian and Dominican blacks with straight hair (now that I think of it a girl in my class is from Barbodos and her hair appears type 1 as well). So to beat a dead horse, blacks can have type 1 hair but it's not an African trait.


 
^--- In total agreement with the above.


----------



## Tru_Mind (May 17, 2005)

Porsche19 said:
			
		

> Black people are muti-racial.  All of the examples I read on the first page kinda point out the fact that the black people are muti-racial.... well who the hell isn't?  No matter where you go the majority of black people are mixed with SOMETHING.  So saying they have straight hair because they are mixed is a little dumb to me.  A good of those people aren't mixed anymore than the average person is.
> 
> I know 1 black man and 1 black woman with straight hair.  Another woman has slightly wavy hair... like type 1b or c if that hairtype exists.  The funny thing is all of the bi-racial people that I know have curly hair.



Thanks Porshe! We're seeing things the same way.

-tru


----------



## qtgirl (May 17, 2005)

Thank you for so eloquently stating what I was saying earlier.     



			
				kristina said:
			
		

> *This was in part the reason I asked what's the prize for having Type 1 hair. I agree with qt that it did sound like people were trying to prove something and it does to me express some internal issues considering the context- people started posting pictures of children with straightish hair, it's immediately followed by posts of admiration and then you expressed that you wished everyone could see their hair. It definately seemed that you felt that there was something particular to be gained/benefited from all black people seeing blacks with type 1 hair. My instant reaction was why? Is this somehow affirming in some way? It's like when black people start bragging about their or their families non-african traits- yeah maybe it's a statement of fact but it's still culturally loaded. Of course, you could have meant that it would have been interesting for blacks to see (the way it's interesting to see a person with violet eyes). But why all blacks? But considering the context, I think it was reasonable to conclude that statement to at least on some level exuded some unnecessary deferrence to type 1/ type 2 hair (and that's my diplomatic why of putting it).*
> And with respect to people noting that people with type 1 hair are mixed, I think this statement is responsive to the posts made that race is a purely a social construct and therefore associating any traits with races is bogus (that's how I understood the statement especially when someone posted that it's a stereotype to associate straight hair with Asians). Basically, what the comments express to me is that one doesn't need to understand phenotypes to notice a correlation between straight hair blacks and non-african ancestry. Not saying it's impossible because I don't know that, but my own eyes and experience indicate that 'pure' Africans don't have straight hair.


----------



## Poohbear (May 17, 2005)

kristina said:
			
		

> The second paragraph was responding to Porsche who said that it was silly for others to mention that the blacks they've seen with straight hair have non-African ancestry because we're all mixed. There was a subdiscussion of race where some posters (I forgot the name) rejected the statement that straight hair is not a negroid feature. Actually the point Porsche was making doesn't conflict with the statement that straight hair isn't a negroid trait- if we're mixed, then the fact someone black has straight hair or blue eyes doesn't mean that straight hair or blue eyes are negroid traits, it means it's a recessive gene trait that many of us being mixed have but is rarely seen because it's recessive. I don't have any scientific research but at minimum a pure African (if there's such a thing) is someone who can trace their blood line and would not see causacian and mongoloid blood, someone I'd posit is extremely unlikely to have type 1 hair.
> To the question you asked I answered that question yes, I have seen Brazilian and Dominican blacks with straight hair (now that I think of it a girl in my class is from Barbodos and her hair appears type 1 as well). So to beat a dead horse, blacks can have type 1 hair but it's not an African trait.


thanks for explaining.


----------



## Pretty Star (Dec 6, 2009)

------------------------------------


----------



## Pretty Star (Dec 6, 2009)

myco said:


> I was watching a program on TLC (it might have been _The Real Eve_) and the researchers were discussing the environmental uses for the differences in hair and skin color. In hot, tropical climates like most of Africa, kinky,curly hair is advantageous because it allows for heat to be dispersed from the scalp. The strands of hair grow away from the head allowing the heat to escape. Straighter hair on the other hand, lays next to the scalp trapping the heat next to the body.
> 
> The stereotypical caucasian nose is advantageous in colder climates because the high, thin nasal passage warms incoming air. Broader, flatter noses help to cool the incoming air.
> 
> Melanin or the lack thereof is related to our ability to absorb Vitamin D from the sun. Melanin inhibits Vitamin D absorption from the sun. So if you live in a northern climate that gets relatively less sun for large parts of the year, fairer skin allows you to maximize your Vitamin D absorption when it's available. On the flipside, the ability to produce melanin offers more UV protection in climates that get a lot of sun year-round. I know that was OT, but I just find stuff like that amazing. There is a method to the madness.


 

I read this as well. There are biological/environmental reasons why people of different races look different. Thanks for sharing. So interesting.

And to answer the question I don't know anyone with 2 black parents who has type 1 hair.


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## Taina (Dec 6, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> Does anyone know any black people with Type 1 hair???
> 
> Relaxed hair would be considered type 1 hair, but do you know any blacks who's hair is type 1 withOUT a relaxer???



Well i know dominicans black ppl with type 1. we call them "culisos" or "culisas" if they are men or women, is how we name this type of ppl in DR


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## *Muffin* (Dec 6, 2009)

EbonyF said:


> Not type 1 but by my 1st cousin on my mother side has type 2 hair. *She is dark-skinned (mocha baby!) and her hair is like Ananda Lewis'. While her sister is light/brown-skinned and has type 4 hair (Go figure!, and they have the same father).*
> 
> And they are not mixed. They use to get a lot of questions while growing up since it seems to disturb some Black people when they see a dark skin person with straightish wavy hair.
> 
> eta: Someone mentioned above, but I don't believe that you have to have some "other influences" in your lineage in order to have 3-type hair.


 
This describes my family on my father's side very well. I kid you not, the people with darker skin on my dad's side have a very loose hair texture, while the lighter skinned ones have a tighter hair texture.


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## Almaz (Dec 6, 2009)

NOT all Ethiopian have Arab heritage. Neither do Somailis. Some but not all depending on the region. There are some Kenyans and Rwandans with type one hair too and they surely not an Arab in the bunch. These areas are made up of many different ethnic groups only a few are mixed with "Arabs". This is a myth. Tell that to an Amhara they would cut you down.


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## GodivaChocolate (Dec 6, 2009)

my nephew has type 1 hair but.......I was thinking about it..what difference does it make...what people have and don't have????? Just maybe we spend to much time concentrating on issues that aren't pertinent to us personally(?) JMO


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## DeenIsFirst (Dec 6, 2009)

My grandmother has type 1 hair (meaning when it was long, there was no wave pattern. Now that it's shorter, it flips up at the ends). Growing up, her hair was at least waist-length. She is dark skinned and she says people used to make fun of her for having straight hair. They would also speculate about what her roots are. But just by looking at her, she does not look "mixed" at all. In fact I look a lot like her, except I'm a 4b


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## Eritreladiee (Dec 6, 2009)

It happens. My grams hair is pretty much straight hair, with a bit of a wave.


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## song_of_serenity (Dec 6, 2009)

Eritreladiee said:


> It happens. My grams hair is pretty much straight hair, with a bit of a wave.


She looks a bit East Indian...?


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## Eritreladiee (Dec 7, 2009)

song_of_serenity said:


> She looks a bit East Indian...?


 
She does, but she's African, 100% Eritrean


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## Kurlee (Dec 7, 2009)

Eritreladiee said:


> She does, but she's African, 100% Eritrean



even though i don't think so, many people will assume that eritreans are "mixed" to explain their features and hair


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## Almaz (Dec 7, 2009)

And there inlies the problem people Assume what they dont' know. I know some Staight up outta Lagos Nigerians with this hair and the so called Typical West African features. 





Kurlee said:


> even though i don't think so, many people will assume that eritreans are "mixed" to explain their features and hair


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## jamaraa (Dec 7, 2009)

Well people need to keep up w/ modern anthropological studies before they speak on the matter. East Africa well, the original man and all that...however when it comes to their looks and all, evidence pointed to them having the original traits and passing them on. *IOW, the East Africans aren't mixed, the other folks are!*


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## Eritreladiee (Dec 7, 2009)

Kurlee said:


> even though i don't think so, many people will assume that eritreans are "mixed" to explain their features and hair



Yeah, basically if you don't have kinkiest hair, the widest of noses, the biggest of lips, the blue-blackest of skin- u not a real African

(titkalamee 3arabi?)


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## Almaz (Dec 7, 2009)

Yeah and that really gets on my nerves because Africa is so vast. Three times bigger than the United states but after all this time and all this information out there.

People still to this day and time still put Africans in ONE myopic box and if they cannot reason why an African looks a certain way that HAVVVEEE to mix with something. Well didn't the first man come out of Africa?  







Eritreladiee said:


> Yeah, basically if you don't have kinkiest hair, the widest of noses, the biggest of lips, the blue-blackest of skin- u not a real African
> 
> (titkalamee 3arabi?)


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## Almaz (Dec 7, 2009)

Thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you 






jamaraa said:


> Well people need to keep up w/ modern anthropological studies before they speak on the matter. East Africa well, the original man and all that...however when it comes to their looks and all, evidence pointed to them having the original traits and passing them on. *IOW, the East Africans aren't mixed, the other folks are!*


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## Kurlee (Dec 7, 2009)

Eritreladiee said:


> Yeah, basically if you don't have kinkiest hair, the widest of noses, the biggest of lips, the blue-blackest of skin- u not a real African
> 
> (titkalamee 3arabi?)



yes! I hate this mindset. I made friends with some East african girls in schools and after a while they told me how annoyed they get when people (blacks) tell them they are not real black or african because of their hair, complexions, features. That would annoy the hell out of me.


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## YankeeCandle (Dec 7, 2009)

People advance theories based on what they personally have seen and experienced. Since we all have limited experience, the result is usually a "theory" that is limited and flawed, as well.

IMO the U.S. concept of "blackness" (which I as a person of non-Western background did not grow up in) is an ethnocentric one, revolving entirely around a specific subset of African peoplle: the collection of equatorial West and Central ethnic groups in which the Andre-4 type hair was the average. 

The African component of the "African Diaspora" draws mostly from those specific lineages,  and it makes sense that Diasporics (along with the non-African people they share the Americas with) would construct "Blackness" based on that prototype.

But schools need to do a better job of pointing out the flaws of that ethnocentric definition--and of broad "racial" constructions in the first place. Diasporic children, whether Jamaican, Black American, or Brazilian, should learn that Africa is no different than Europe or Asia in its diversity. 

Africa, too, has indigenous groups that live within a few hundred miles of each other and that look so different to one another that in the U.S. they would be called "different races." 

Africa, too, has indigenous fine and wavy hair; straight hair; and tightly coiled hair.

Africa, too, has indigenous extremely short ethnic groups and extremely tall ones.

Africa, too, has indigenous ethnic groups with soft rounded facial features and others with beaky, sharp ones. 

Africa, too, has indigenous people ranging from the pale creamy inside of an almond to the toasted brown outside of an almond to the rich purple-black of an eggplant.

Africa has indigenous people with heavily lidded eyes and others with epicanthic folds (i.e. eyes most Westerners associate with East Asians).

It has all of these things indigenous to its shores because Africa contains the spectrum of every climate and geographic environment (except tundra) in the world. As such, it has indigenous people whose bodies, faces, and hair reflect that diversity.

Children should also be taught the very great lengths to which European and European-American scholars have historically gone to try to rationalize away the indigenous Africans who do not fit the narrow Diasporic-West/Central African prototype. All manner of madness has been advanced to explain away Africans who are lighter than that prototype, or whose agricultural and subsistence methods were too close for comfort to the ones Europeans prided themselves on. 

Let's do our part and stop the madness. 

If you, personally, have not experienced indigenous African people with straight or wavy hair (or for that matter, Asian or European people with kinky hair), then please do not spin theories out of your limited experience.

It makes a poorer world for us all.


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## Kurlee (Dec 7, 2009)

YankeeCandle said:


> People advance theories based on what they personally have seen and experienced. Since we all have limited experience, the result is usually a "theory" that is limited and flawed, as well.
> 
> IMO the U.S. concept of "blackness" (which I as a person of non-Western background did not grow up in) is an ethnocentric one, revolving entirely around a specific subset of African peoplle: the collection of equatorial West and Central ethnic groups in which the Andre-4 type hair was the average.
> 
> ...


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## SND411 (Dec 7, 2009)

What I dont understand is how the definition of "white" is so extensive: 
-red, brown, blonde hair
-different noses
-different complexions (from your Swedish to Sicilian)
- different eye colors etc...

But Africa, with the MOST genetic diversity, has to only be one specific way?


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## YankeeCandle (Dec 7, 2009)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> What I dont understand is how the definition of "white" is so extensive:
> -red, brown, blonde hair
> -different noses
> -different complexions (from your Swedish to Sicilian)
> ...


 
This is due, again, to ethnocentrism, only this time from the European end of it. 

When you are the one doing the defining and looking out at 'the world' as though it is a unique oyster for you to categorize and explore, you can and do make up definitions that fit your own worldview and experience of the world. 

Europeans rightly saw themselves as diverse--linguistically, ethnically. culturally, etc. And so, much has been made in Europe over indigenous Euro ethnic diversity, to the point that wars have been fought within Europe because of it. 

Although ancient Europeans (Greeks and Romans) recognized the diversity of Africa, Asia, and Europe and commented according to ethnicity (not our modern construction of "race"), that changed with the so-called Ages of Discovery and Enlightment. (16th century onward).

When time came to devise justifications for the slave trade, colonialism, and other European-dominated enterprises, race as we know it came into being. That is when it became financially and socially expedient to lump together disparate groups of people on the basis of arbitrarily-chosen criteria. 

To give you an example of how Europeans have defined the world according to European standards, consider the fact that geologists do not recognize Europe as a continent at all. IN fact, Europe is geographically a SUB-continent (of Asia), along the lines of the Indian subcontinent protruding from Asia. Yet, when classifying the world around them, European explorers and scientists saw Europe as its own continent, and named it so. 

Those who have the power to classify have much power indeed.


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## Theresamonet (Dec 7, 2009)

I wish we didn't use the term "negroid" around here. I hate the "oids" (negr*oid*, mongoli*oid*, etc.)...Oh well...I'm kinda hoping this thread gets locked...I'm starting to feel a certain way about it.


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## sharifeh (Dec 7, 2009)

Taina said:


> Well i know dominicans black ppl with type 1. we call them "culisos" or "culisas" if they are men or women, is how we name this type of ppl in DR


cool fact!!



Almaz said:


> NOT all Ethiopian have Arab heritage. Neither do Somailis. Some but not all depending on the region. There are some Kenyans and Rwandans with type one hair too and they surely not an Arab in the bunch. These areas are made up of many different ethnic groups only a few are mixed with "Arabs". This is a myth. Tell that to an Amhara they would cut you down.



Thank you!!


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## Lucia (Dec 7, 2009)

I've seen people from Madagascar, SE, NE, NW Africa with naturally straight coarse stereo-typical "Asian" hair and they don't claim to be Indian or mixed they're all African.


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## luckiestdestiny (Dec 7, 2009)

My great aunt is type one. Yes my family is a mixture but claim black because most (exceptions I'm sure) who came over in slavery in this country are MIXED. No one likes that word with us but it's true.  We are not pure breeds anymore. But we in my family claim black because when we think of black we think of mixtures that have African Heritage as one of them.


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## ebonylocs (Dec 7, 2009)

MeccaMedinah said:


> I am from the Jamaica, my parents are mixed, and I have 4a hair. I wouldn't touch the islands, because we trace our heritage to so many places there's not enough time to explain.


As someone from the "islands" I would say that people from here are *no* more likely to be more mixed/ more diverse than AAs, especially given that we tend to be a majority African-derived population living with *minority* other (white / Asian) population; as opposed to AAs, who are a minority living among a majority white population plus large immigrant communities from all over the world. (However, of course, this depends on the islands. What I just said is truer re Jamaica, Haiti, Barbados, St. Lucia) and less applicable to Trinidad, Dom Rep., Puerto Rico.



MissMarie said:


> Since the OP simply asked about Black people with type 1 hair I assumed she referred to all Black people. Not just Blacks with completely unmixed parentage or ancestry, Blacks from only certain regions of Africa, or Blacks that had specific "Negroid" features.


But then, that kind of voids the question, no? If anyone with any amount of African ancestry, however minute, can be considered, then of course they can have any type of features. Any eye colour, hair texture, skin colour. What's the point of even asking?



ccd said:


> Anyone see a person from Madagascar (which is located in Southern Africa, near Mozambique....and yes, they were a french colony at one point so I guess they arent really Black either)


Umm, it is well known fact that Madagascans are a mix of Africans, Indians, and Arabs. This evolved when Indians & Arabs began trading via the Indian Ocean with the south east of Africa.



MissMarie said:


> I don't get the limitations people put on what is black, saying that some people are more black than others. Its akin to saying, on a socioeconomic level, that because a disproportionate number of blacks in American cities are working and lower class that therefore that is a defining social characteristic of blackness, and that anyone who is outside of that isn't as black as others regardless of how they identify and how they are viewed in the broader society.


There is no way you can equate unchangeable and heritable traits like physical features to something as potentially transient and circumstantial as socioeconomic status.


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## Honey Bee (Dec 7, 2009)

Almaz said:


> People still to this day and time still put Africans in ONE myopic box and if they cannot reason why an African looks a certain way that HAVVVEEE to mix with something. Well didn't the first man come out of Africa?


Almaz, I've been wanting to ask you to please post some informational links in your siggy...about history, about phenotype, about African Jewry (all I know is 'Operation Moses', and some speculation about the Queen of Sheba ), whatever.  I would appreciate a few links, just to help me weed out some of the unreliable stuff.  I honestly don't know where to start (and I was actually a history major), and it would be helpful to have the viewpoint of a first-hand witness, so to speak. Thank you.  

To the original question, I have 2 first cousins with allegedly type 1 hair.  I can't say, because I met them when I was little and don't remember, but my mom describes them as having "Indian hair", lol.  She is familiar with Andre's sytem, so I'm taking her word.  As "corroborating evidence", lol (smh @ the lengths we go to), I have many, many 1st cousins who are 2's and 3's.  In fact, as a child, I felt a little out of place, like, dag, who are all these spanish girls? (I grew up in Spanish Harlem, so anybody who wasn't white and wasn't black, was "Spanish".) My mom explained the anomaly to my satisfaction.


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## vainღ♥♡jane (Dec 7, 2009)

i only know one girl even close to type 1. she has type 2a hair and it has always been about hip length since she was a child. ♥


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## LadyRaider (Dec 7, 2009)

My mom and her brothers and sisters have indian hair. One of my cousins has it as well. I think it's 2 hair. Indian hair is wavy, (I think.) I don't know why I say that since on tv, it's always straight. I think it is easily brushed straight though.            

I would imagine there are blacks from south america and australia might have straight hair. I think straight hair is fairly rare. Most hair seems to have some wave.


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## Ithacagurl (Dec 7, 2009)

This is my friend from Haiti not mixed. I am not sure the type hair also have cousins with this type from jamaica.


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## meecee (Dec 7, 2009)

This little girl in my old apt. complex had type 1 hair. Both of her parents are Black (dad creole). She had very thin, fine, wispy straight hair. It was light brown too. It was so thin and straight that her mom really couldn't style it. Her hair was just like an average white toddler's.


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## almond eyes (Dec 7, 2009)

Having lived and visited many parts of Africa, I have never seen any black Africans with stick straight hair. When I have seen black Africans with this straight and light coloured hair it is caused by malnutrition; in many parts of Africa people are living below the misery index. This straight/fine/light coloured hair tends to look like straw and very unhealthy. My cousin who has now straight hair because of lupus. I think the concept of stick straight hair on black Africans is very odd. 

Best,
Almond Eyes


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## princessnad (Dec 7, 2009)

^^ I was going to mention that many of the Africans, Aboriginies or people from Papau New Guinea with blond hair are nutrient deficient and it manifests in their hair.


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## Almaz (Dec 7, 2009)

PM me as to which one you want to start with first






Honey Bee said:


> Almaz, I've been wanting to ask you to please post some informational links in your siggy...about history, about phenotype, about African Jewry (all I know is 'Operation Moses', and some speculation about the Queen of Sheba ), whatever. I would appreciate a few links, just to help me weed out some of the unreliable stuff. I honestly don't know where to start (and I was actually a history major), and it would be helpful to have the viewpoint of a first-hand witness, so to speak. Thank you.
> 
> To the original question, I have 2 first cousins with allegedly type 1 hair. I can't say, because I met them when I was little and don't remember, but my mom describes them as having "Indian hair", lol. She is familiar with Andre's sytem, so I'm taking her word. As "corroborating evidence", lol (smh @ the lengths we go to), I have many, many 1st cousins who are 2's and 3's. In fact, as a child, I felt a little out of place, like, dag, who are all these spanish girls? (I grew up in Spanish Harlem, so anybody who wasn't white and wasn't black, was "Spanish".) My mom explained the anomaly to my satisfaction.


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## Almaz (Dec 7, 2009)

There is a lot of Malay/Arab/Comaro infusions on the Island but they dont' care they just call themselves Malagasy. 





Lucia said:


> I've seen people from Madagascar, SE, NE, NW Africa with naturally straight coarse stereo-typical "Asian" hair and they don't claim to be Indian or mixed they're all African.


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## almond eyes (Dec 7, 2009)

I met a Malay woman who has Asian phenotype with the bone straight hair but they may be Africans but not black Africans who are of negroid blood.

And yes, not all the Africans who came to the US though slavery were pureblooded. There was a lot of racial mixing that happened in West Africa before and during the slave trade. 

Best,
Almond Eyes


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## LunadeMiel (Dec 7, 2009)

YankeeCandle said:


> People advance theories based on what they personally have seen and experienced. Since we all have limited experience, the result is usually a "theory" that is limited and flawed, as well.
> 
> IMO the U.S. concept of "blackness" (which I as a person of non-Western background did not grow up in) is an ethnocentric one, revolving entirely around a specific subset of African peoplle: the collection of equatorial West and Central ethnic groups in which the Andre-4 type hair was the average.
> 
> ...


 
I too believed that most Africans "looked" a certain . That is until I started dating my SO. He is an "orginal" (as he likes to call himself) from South African.  He is yellow skinned and looks chinese when he smiles (his eyes completely dissapear) Oh and his father's eyes are gray and his late maternal grandmother is the yellowest woman I've ever seen . I was like damn, way to educate my butt


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## Kurlee (Dec 7, 2009)

Ithacagurl said:


> This is my friend from Haiti not mixed. I am not sure the type hair also have cousins with this type from jamaica.



Your cousin is very pretty and I have seen many west indians who resemble her and have her hair type. i guess it's more about what you are exposed to that shapes how you "judge" how people look.


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## almond eyes (Dec 7, 2009)

Some Black South Africans have mixed with the Dutch/Malay/Asian/Arab populations.

I will stand by my assertion that Black negroid Africans do not have stick straight hair. 

Best,
Almond Eyes


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## makeupgirl (Dec 7, 2009)

Actually no I haven't.  Everyone I knew said that their hair was either too curly or kinky so their mothers put a perm in to control it.  I've never seen a black person with type 1 hair as a natural.  Maybe type 2 but not type 1.

Then again I take that back.  My mother told me my great-grandmother or aunt I can't remember had bone straight hair.  She was full-blood indian.


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## LunadeMiel (Dec 7, 2009)

almond eyes said:


> Some Black South Africans have mixed with the Dutch/Malay/Asian/Arab populations.
> 
> I will stand by my assertion that Black negroid Africans do not have stick straight hair.
> 
> ...


 

That I know. But he's people just left the bush . They weren't mixing with anybody .


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## testimony777 (Dec 7, 2009)

My godmother has type 1 hair. My paternal great grand mother did as well. My maternal grandmother and my paternal grandfather both had a mix of 1 and 2a type hair, both had a very slight wave to their hair.


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## Newlife2011 (Dec 7, 2009)

is this worth the read?


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## almond eyes (Dec 7, 2009)

LunadeMiel, you have me cracking up. 

Best,
Almond Eyes


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## YankeeCandle (Dec 7, 2009)

LunadeMiel said:


> That I know. But he's people just left the bush . They weren't mixing with anybody .


 
Yup, southern Africa is one of the notable places in which some indigenous peoples have light yellow skin and epicanthic folds. Their physical features are also described in their oral histories going back hundreds (potentially thousands) of years before non-Africans came to that part of Africa.

People who begin talking about "the ethnic mixture of South Africans" clearly are not familiar with the several indigenous "straight outta the bush" (their term, not mine!) tribes that have such features. It is a common mistake if a person is thinking only of the modern state of South Africa (and thus an understandable mistake).

Again, folks, the relatively small subset of Africans who went to the Americas is not representative of all indigenous Africans.

Please note also that the Western anthropological establishment (as represented by the AAA) officially retracted their use of the terms "negroid, caucasoid," etc (and the very idea of large racial categories) several decades ago. Laypeople continue to use the terms and concepts of "race" because we have been socialized to do so and because the goverment and media reinforces these ideas over and over.

There is really no NON-ARBITRARY biological, physical, or even phenotypic reason why a Khoisian from southern Africa, a Yoruba from Nigeria, and an Amhara from the Horn should all be considered part of the same alleged "race." There are many social reasons--some rather unsavory-- why they are lumped together in some societies, but from a public health/medical standpoint, each population has different needs based on the different climates and subsistence methods that contributed to their distinctive physical makeup. 

It is not taking away from African solidarity to give due deference to the many differences among us. I think it actually highlights African unity: although we are strikingly different in phenotype, language, culture, and so forth, we all want a healthier, more peaceful, more politically stable, more financially independent and industrious continent, from Cairo to Capetown, Accra to Addis. 

***Sorry to veer off-topic from the OP; will bow out now! ***


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## testimony777 (Dec 7, 2009)

YankeeCandle said:


> Please note also that the Western anthropological establishment (as represented by the AAA) *officially retracted their use of the terms "negroid, caucasoid," etc (and the very idea of large racial categories) several decades ago*. Laypeople continue to use the terms and concepts of "race" because we have been socialized to do so and because the government and media reinforces these ideas over and over.
> 
> *There is really no NON-ARBITRARY biological, physical, or even phenotypic reason why a Khoisian from southern Africa, a Yoruba from Nigeria, and an Amhara from the Horn should all be considered part of the same alleged "race." *There are many social reasons--some rather unsavory-- why they are lumped together in some societies, but from a public health/medical standpoint, each population has different needs based on the different climates and subsistence methods that contributed to their distinctive physical makeup.



Thank you!!!!!


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## BlackGeisha (Dec 7, 2009)

*There's this african american girl on YT, now she's not totally type 1 she has a slight wave to her hair, but says it came out that way no chemicals, no nothing, she claims she's natural.*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcEglgQC_78&feature=related


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## Bene (Dec 7, 2009)

BlackGeisha said:


> *There's this african american girl on YT, now she's not totally type 1 she has a slight wave to her hair, but says it came out that way no chemicals, no nothing, she claims she's natural.*
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcEglgQC_78&feature=related



I've seen her. She's natural (no chemicals) but, she blow dries her hair to make it straight.


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## BlackGeisha (Dec 7, 2009)

Bene said:


> I've seen her. She's natural (no chemicals) but, she blow dries her hair to make it straight.


 
oh ok, thanks! it did look a bit poofy in one of her other vids. But it's still really beautiful.


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## Bene (Dec 7, 2009)

BlackGeisha said:


> oh ok, thanks! it did look a bit poofy in one of her other vids. But it's still really beautiful.




She is. And she's a smart kid too


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## Maracujá (Dec 7, 2009)

BlackGeisha said:


> *There's this african american girl on YT, now she's not totally type 1 she has a slight wave to her hair, but says it came out that way no chemicals, no nothing, she claims she's natural.*
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcEglgQC_78&feature=related



Her hair is beautiful.


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## almond eyes (Dec 7, 2009)

Yankee Candle, interesting observation on your part. I am not so sure how I feel about the races within the race concept.  The continent is trying to promote Pan-Africanism which is a hard struggle and mainly because of economic/political rather than social/cultural reasons. 

In the DRC, the older generation Congolese and Hutu Rwandans were taught through colonialism about different races within the African continent and this thought became extremely dangerous as they started to see themselves as Bantu African and Tutsi Congolese/Rwandans as foreigners Nilotic/Ethiopian/Egyptian and thus this intermingled with many econonmic/political reasons which was manipulated by power players caused the genocide in Rwanda and Eastern DRC.


In West Africa for example, I know many West Africans reject the above-mentionned concept. It gets to be very dangerous and dicey to say that Ethiopians are of a different race than Senegalese for example.

Yes, people do have different features, hair texture and skin colour but that's just because of different climates, diets, etc. over time. 

In West Africa, there were and are many Africans who came from other parts of the continent and these groups mixed together as well as the slave trade and business bringing in non-African men who married and had children with indigenous African women. My family for example is West African and people tend to get very upset when I state that because they say, well West Africa is comprised of many countries, you can't state that you claim the whole thing and therefore lump the whole place together. Well I can say that many West Africans will tell you that they have a very diverse background just as the African-Americans. My maternal side is from Sudan and migrated into West Africa with a mixture of my relatives settling in parts of Liberia and Sierra Leone and some of the family line according to my great-aunt also disbanded into Egypt. My paternal line is from Nigeria Yoruba but my dad's mother was a high-yellow woman from Benin (PortoNovo) whose people were slated for the slave trade to America from Abiokuta. Since my grandfather was so dark for a Yoruba there is talk that his family might not even be orginally from Nigeria. You know that Africans are nomadic and many travelled and settled all over Africa and many of the men were polygamous and had children all over the place. Many Africans went to school in the States and Europe and had children with the white women and left them behind. I even have Senegalese relatives and I mean first cousin stuff. And during the civil war in the States there were Africans who went to school and returned back to Africa and I am sure they left behind children. 

Now, pray tell me what race am I supposed to be? The bottom line is that I don't agree with the concept. I am African straight up. And while there are anomolies in my family (mother has dark brown eyes with a blue rim etc) and even that I have as a typical West African woman don't necessarily fit the stereotype it doesn't change the concept that I am still a black African. And I don't think anything is wrong with being a negroid African, my hair type identifies me as such. But yes, my example proves that race is not a narrow concept. I agree let's celebrate the diversions but let's not forget the whole. 



Best,
Almond Eyes


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## otegwu (Dec 7, 2009)

To really sum this up this all boils down to Genetics and DNA. 

African Americans, and those from the other Islands, may often appear very dark with really kinki hair, or very light with straight hair, or what ever they look like, many are likely to have up to and even above 20% European/Asian genes, I advise many to go at get a genetics test done,you would be extremely surprised! 

You can call your self fully black if you want to and feel that way, the genetic makeup but of an individual counts for a lot.
So for the Diaspora people your likely to be 'mixed' (at least genetically) whether its visible or not. Its likely in this group that you could find type 1's, as it definitely could be in the genetic make up even if its recessive.

Africa, well its very diverse, and is more a case of migration and geographical access. 

To the north of Africa you can obviously see its closer to the middle east and europe its likely that trade was much easier due to its proximity, and the movement of different peoples and tribes would have been easy and probable. (Including Arabs), therefore you would get a higher % of genetic mixing. maybe this is why often, most north African often have looser textured hair, they are still as black as any other African but with a different genetic make up. (like brothers and sisters!) Type 1 is a possibility in this case

Central Africa.... dense forests, hard access, deserts, probably harder to get to as further away from the coast and water, for boats access,(in the past), so less genetic mixing. I can definitely say that central to mid south Africans have hair in the 4 regions ( also the environment has a big part to play...i can discuss later). they are still black, with a different genetic makeup. but I highly doubt you will find some one from central Africa with type 1 hair. LMAO the thought of it! although in the future and all this traveling and IR love, this could definitely happen...im all for it!

The variety you will find in hair textures will be derived from the variety of the genetic make up of an individual, having a more heterozygous array of genes will probably mean that there could be a great possibility of 'black'(mixed genes) people having type 1 hair, 
But that would be very unlikely for some one who was pure African or at least had a larger homogeneous genetic profile.


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## Kurlee (Dec 7, 2009)

YankeeCandle said:


> Yup, southern Africa is one of the notable places in which some indigenous peoples have light yellow skin and epicanthic folds. Their physical features are also described in their oral histories going back hundreds (potentially thousands) of years before non-Africans came to that part of Africa.
> 
> People who begin talking about "the ethnic mixture of South Africans" clearly are not familiar with the several indigenous "straight outta the bush" (their term, not mine!) tribes that have such features. It is a common mistake if a person is thinking only of the modern state of South Africa (and thus an understandable mistake).
> 
> ...


I am loving the bolded. Girl, you are on point.  I wish more people understood that.


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## Mz.MoMo5235 (Dec 7, 2009)

between yankeecandle and otegwu...  this thread got way too smart for me.  i'm gonna go read a book so i can catch up! lol


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## LadyRaider (Dec 7, 2009)

Like I said, there's no such thing as race.

http://www.pbs.org/race/001_WhatIsRace/001_00-home.htm


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## Kurlee (Dec 7, 2009)

The two ideas that I think are the most important from that link are:





and


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## jamaraa (Dec 8, 2009)

otegwu said:


> To really sum this up this all boils down to Genetics and DNA.
> 
> *You can call your self fully black if you want to and feel that way, the genetic makeup but of an individual counts for a lot.
> So for the Diaspora people your likely to be 'mixed' (at least genetically) whether its visible or not. Its likely in this group that you could find type 1's, as it definitely could be in the genetic make up even if its recessive.*


 
Very little of what we're talking about has to do w/ genetics, per se, but social contructs which assign certain traits (phenotypes) to certain groups based on "the eyeball test". Nothing is really more inaccurate than this in terms of science, but here we're talking social mores.  IOW, someone who has "Andre type 1 hair" can't be Black because society says they MUST BE mixed. Frankly that's illogical given the genetic diversity of humans, but people ain't logical!  Much of this is tied up in the venal "one drop rule" which seeks a simple answer to a complex question.

At the end of the day, we simply don't know what soemone's racial make up is by looking at external traits. This is why if someone says they're "Black" I accept it (same for other categories) because these things are more about culture, experiences, and ethnicity than genetic make up.

*I just find it funny that some folks say "I'm mixed" and people get mad and say "You're Black and you just don't wanna be" then other people will say "I'm NOT mixed...I'm Black" and they get argued down citing "atypical" phentotypical traits (see Type 1-2 hair). Based on what...where's the dispute?  People can't win for losing sometimes and it's sad.*


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## maghreblover (Dec 8, 2009)

I've resorted to the belief that colour and hair types/ other features aren't always related. I come from a fully Nigerian family, and even within my family there's so much diversity. Some of us kids (we're eleven) are fair in complexion, some dark, some tall, some short, some with type 4 hair and some with type 3....the heck, my seven year old sister's got type 2-3 hair and blue eyes! and no, my mummy didn't cheat on nobody.


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## luckiestdestiny (Dec 8, 2009)

jamaraa said:


> Very little of what we're talking about has to do w/ genetics, per se, but social contructs which assign certain traits (phenotypes) to certain groups based on "the eyeball test". Nothing is really more inaccurate than this in terms of science, but here we're talking social mores.  IOW, someone who has "Andre type 1 hair" can't be Black because society says they MUST BE mixed. Frankly that's illogical given the genetic diversity of humans, but people ain't logical!  Much of this is tied up in the venal "one drop rule" which seeks a simple answer to a complex question.
> 
> At the end of the day, we simply don't know what soemone's racial make up is by looking at external traits. This is why if someone says they're "Black" I accept it (same for other categories) because these things are more about culture, experiences, and ethnicity than genetic make up.
> 
> *I just find it funny that some folks say "I'm mixed" and people get mad and say "You're Black and you just don't wanna be" then other people will say "I'm NOT mixed...I'm Black" and they get argued down citing "atypical" phentotypical traits (see Type 1-2 hair). Based on what...where's the dispute? People can't win for losing sometimes and it's sad.*


 
THANK YOU!  It's the reason that some people have said my brother is mixed and I am black: he hazel eyes, light skin; me brown skin, dark eyes..

HELLO! We have the same mom and dad!

Even then, people catch themselves saying this. Like my SIL: she'll say the kids are mixed because she and my brother are mixed, but if she talks about me she'll say I'm black.

So this whole thing is really about "visual" or "atypical phentotypical traists as you say above.


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## Rocky91 (Dec 8, 2009)

Newlife2011 said:


> is this worth the read?



nope.


just kidding-i have no idea, actually. i just thought that the way you asked was really cute.


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## tada1 (Dec 8, 2009)

Dolapo said:


> Im african and i have type 3 natural hair with some 4 at the back. There is no one from my heritage who is mixed and im pretty sure of that. I know I got my hair from my dad who got his from his mother. I should take a picture of their natural hair but they dont live here....So one doesnt have to be mixed to have a type of hair that is different from type four. I dont know where the type 3 hair came from.....*In the northern part of Nigeria, the hausas and fulanis have type 2 and 3 hair and im very sure they're not mixed. Arabs never came to my country only white people and they didnt stay in the North.* i think its people in the northern part of Africa that mostly have different hair types. i met a woman from tanzania who has type 2 hair but im not sure if she's mixed or not. Im thinking it depends on the weather or climate. Because its really dry and dusty in the North, nature may have let their hair be a little curly so it doesnt hold sand and dirt and so it doesnt dry out. who knows......



Dolapo, 

I just want to inform you that you most likely have Hausa/Fulani genes somewhere in your family tree. Go and ask somebody. If so, then you are m*xed (seeing as that's a curse word around here these days)...LOL

Also, do some google searching, you'll see that Fulanis and Hausas have Arab blood in them. Besides people in northern Nigeria are traditionally Nomads--by definition, they just dont sit still. how do you know they didnt come south to get with the white folk? huh?


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## tada1 (Dec 8, 2009)

Vintagecoilylocks said:


> Well I would like to ask all the poeple who say it is not 100% Black to have straight hair this. At what point did the black and kink develope its characteristics you claim are exclusive. I believe we are from one female and male from the african continent. I am traditional bible version but irrigardless many believe the differances evolved due to environment. So question which came first the kink/black or the straight./white? How do you know "100%Blacks" did not originally have straight hair and light skin and it evolved due to environment to kink/black. Then whites just kept the original? this could account for Aborigines STILL having straight hair while only their skin adjusted to environment. Also the claims from Africans of no known mixture yet many being lighter with straight to straight hair. It is well known that the Moors occupied(yes occupied) deep into the european continent for hundreds of years. So maybe whites with kink just got a new dose of the newer type hair.
> 
> This is fun isn't it.




I think this is a fantastic point of view. Ive never really thought of it this way before. It's hard to prove, but certainly interesting to think about  it kinda sounds somewhat like an evolution theory

ETA: im sitting at the airport right now and i can't help starring at all the different types of people walking past. curly heads, wavy heads, straight heads, broad noses, pointy noses etc. im sitting here tryna picture thse folk morphing back into black versions of themselves..lol



Poohbear said:


> *I wonder why the "White People with Type 4 Hair" thread didn't get heated like this one... *



chile you KNOW every black girl wants naturally swanging hair. why u gona go and set us up like this?







J/K <---sneaks out of thread.


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## tada1 (Dec 8, 2009)

myco said:


> I was watching a program on TLC (it might have been _The Real Eve_) and the researchers were discussing the environmental uses for the differences in hair and skin color.  In hot, tropical climates like most of Africa, kinky,curly hair is advantageous because it allows for heat to be dispersed from the scalp. The strands of hair grow away from the head allowing the heat to escape.  Straighter hair on the other hand, lays next to the scalp trapping the heat next to the body.
> 
> The stereotypical caucasian nose is advantageous in colder climates because the high, thin nasal passage warms incoming air.  Broader, flatter noses help to cool the incoming air.
> 
> ...



i LOVE this. i just KNEW there was a reason that my hair is so thick and muscular 



EbonyF said:


> Basically in a nutshell, what throws people off is RACE. I mean, no one every ponders about a White person's straight hair. Why isn't that they have straight hair BECAUSE of their African ancestor? or why can't a Black person have straight hair because of their African descent? The color of ones skin has no determination of straightness or nappiness.



how come the blacks that are undisputably of African descent (ie people in rural West Africa) all seem to have dense thick type 4 hair? i dont get it
North, East, and south Africans dont count because they usually have other "races" / "countries" of whatever mixed in.


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## jamaraa (Dec 8, 2009)

*tada* umm...ok people in certain parts of Africa have the "typical" hair texture because it's a dominant trait in their genetic makeup and those of the regional population. It's just like why there are many redheads in Scotland/Ireland. In that region those traits are dominant for evolutionary reasons. *HOWEVER that fact doesn't mean they are NOT mixed, only that some genes are more dominant than others.* 

I don't know how you can assume that West Africans are somehow more isolated than all other Africans on the rest of the continent therefore are unmixed based on their hair texture?! The texture you speak of is the predominant one ALL OVER Africa, including North Africa and East Africa. The texture you're referring to is no stranger anywhere on the continent.  No matter how mixed the people are supposed to be.

*Being mixed is not a bad thing at all. People do not choose their genetic makeup.* It's the issue of others trying to tell someone they are because of a phenotypical trait that seems unexplained otherwise. *When it comes to Africans, unlike most diasporic Blacks, many of them know their ancestry back 10 gens or more.* To insist that they don't comes off weirdly and rather imperalist, IMHO.

BTW, joking or not, there are plenty of BW who DO NOT WANT to trade their hair for "swang". Sorry.


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## jamaraa (Dec 8, 2009)

This stuff is a very American (meaning USA) obsession. Most of the world ain't checkin' it like this. In many other societies there are *at least * 3 races...Black, White, Coloured quite unlike here in the States. I would say in many parts of Africa a mixed race person wouldn't be considered Black by anyone, but Coloured. This is certainly true for much of Central and South America, but the US seems to be the one place where people are still   about who's Black or mixed race.


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## tada1 (Dec 8, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> What do u consider "all Black"?  How can a Black person be all black or 100% black??? How come someone that is mixed with something else cannot be considered black? Black is just a category people are placed in because of COMMON traits.  That doesn't mean every black person should possess these traits. That's impossible.
> 
> For example, a common black feature is big lips.  I don't have big lips, does that make me "not-all-the-way Black"? Certainly not!



the idea is something like this: if you mix a tub  of PURE (100% salt) with a teaspoon of sand, even though there is obviously more salt than there is sand, the resultant mixture is clearly no longer 100% salt. the features of the salt, the sand, or the resultant mixture don't really matter. the point is, someone muddied up the salt. If you compare your original pure salt with the new mixed salt, i think its fair to say that one is 100% and the other isn't.  (and i say this with utmost respect for all mixed people)


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## jamaraa (Dec 8, 2009)

tada1 said:


> the idea is something like this: if you mix a tub of PURE (100% salt) with a teaspoon of sand, even though there is obviously more salt than there is sand, the resultant mixture is clearly no longer 100% salt. the features of the salt, the sand, or the resultant mixture don't really matter. the point is, someone muddied up the salt. If you compare your original pure salt with the new mixed salt, i think its fair to say that one is 100% and the other isn't. (and i say this with utmost respect for all mixed people)


 
Genetics is nowhere near this straight forward.


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## tada1 (Dec 8, 2009)

jamaraa said:


> *tada* umm...ok people in certain parts of Africa have the "typical" hair texture because it's a dominant trait in their genetic makeup and those of the regional population. It's just like why there are many redheads in Scotland/Ireland. In that region those traits are dominant for evolutionary reasons. *HOWEVER that fact doesn't mean they are NOT mixed, only that some genes are more dominant than others.*
> 
> I don't know how you can assume that West Africans are somehow more isolated than all other Africans on the rest of the continent therefore are unmixed based on their hair texture?!



I didn't mean to imply that West-Africans are not mixed* because* they seem to have mostly type four hair. IMHO it is a generally understood fact that *rural West-Africans* avoid inter-racial marriage for cultural reasons. In fact, in many West-African villages, people don't marry outside their own tribes. My point was, _*rural west Africans* are *generally*_ unlikely to be mixed and they seem to have thick type four hair. 

My question to the poster then was, if this is the case how can one ask white folk to look to Africans for an explanation for their straight hair when the group of Africans that are best known for being as pure bred African as possible DO NOT have straight hair?

_this is the post i was replying to:
Why isn't that they have straight hair BECAUSE of their African ancestor? or why can't a Black person have straight hair because of their African descent? The color of ones skin has no determination of straightness or nappiness.

_btw, the thick type 4 hair that im referring to when i discuss rural west-africans is not common in the areas you mentioned. Northern and Eastern Africans have mostly type 3 hair or very loose type 4a.


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## Irresistible (Dec 8, 2009)

jamaraa said:


> Genetics is nowhere near this straight forward.


That's what I was thinking......I was like .....HUH?

Simplifying something so complex is ......I dunno......pointless?


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## SerenavanderWoodsen (Dec 8, 2009)

I havent gone through the entire thread but Im going to say NO.I also do not think there are any Caucasians or Mongoloids with type 4b hair...


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## tada1 (Dec 8, 2009)

jamaraa said:


> Genetics is nowhere near this straight forward.



heyyyy!!!! gotta gimme some credit for trying


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## tada1 (Dec 8, 2009)

exit. stage left


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## Eritreladiee (Dec 8, 2009)

jamaraa said:


> Very little of what we're talking about has to do w/ genetics, per se, but social contructs which assign certain traits (phenotypes) to certain groups based on "the eyeball test". Nothing is really more inaccurate than this in terms of science, but here we're talking social mores.  IOW, someone who has "Andre type 1 hair" can't be Black because society says they MUST BE mixed. Frankly that's illogical given the genetic diversity of humans, but people ain't logical!  Much of this is tied up in the venal "one drop rule" which seeks a simple answer to a complex question.
> 
> At the end of the day, we simply don't know what soemone's racial make up is by looking at external traits. This is why if someone says they're "Black" I accept it (same for other categories) because these things are more about culture, experiences, and ethnicity than genetic make up.
> 
> *I just find it funny that some folks say "I'm mixed" and people get mad and say "You're Black and you just don't wanna be" then other people will say "I'm NOT mixed...I'm Black" and they get argued down citing "atypical" phentotypical traits (see Type 1-2 hair). Based on what...where's the dispute?  People can't win for losing sometimes and it's sad.*



This is an awesome post! Race as a social construct, which doesn't rely on genetics, but visual markers as being the primary tool of classification (phenotype vs. genotype)

Your post just reminded me of how many blacks (black because of the one-drop rule, but looked white) back in the day would live their lives "passing" as white because it was much easier to navigate through society that way. And hell, it worked for some people, even though their brother or sister would have to live "black", because of how they looked.

Race is such a crazy concept.


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## Maracujá (Dec 8, 2009)

Shahla said:


> I havent gone through the entire thread but Im going to say NO.I also do not think there are any Caucasians or Mongoloids with type 4b hair...



Liya Kebede and Zoe Saldana are examples of black people with type 1 hair and I've seen Caucasians with type 4 hair.


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## jamaraa (Dec 8, 2009)

Shahla said:


> I havent gone through the entire thread but Im going to say NO.I also do not think there are any Caucasians or Mongoloids with type 4b hair...


 
If I were you, I'da read thru the thread.  Fact is, you're wrong. It's rare, true enough, but it exists. Of course at one time, most people thought the world was flat and a few people still do.


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## NikStarrr (Dec 8, 2009)

Maracujá said:


> Liya Kebede and Zoe Saldana are examples of black people with type 1 hair and I've seen Caucasians with type 4 hair.



Liya's hair is actually curly.  She's like a 3b-ish (like a lot of Ethiopians.  I didn't say ALL but "a lot". haha).  Here's a quick pic I could dig up.  But I've seen others...


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## Maracujá (Dec 8, 2009)

NikStar said:


> Liya's hair is actually curly.  She's like a 3b-ish (like a lot of Ethiopians.  I didn't say ALL but "a lot". haha).  Here's a quick pic I could dig up.  But I've seen others...



I always thought she had type 1 hair, thanks.


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## almond eyes (Dec 8, 2009)

Liya does not have type one hair. I have followed her for a long time when she competed in Face of Africa. Liya's natural hair texture is curly.

And Many Ethiopians do not have 3b/3c hair; that is a stereotype. We only notice the ones who have that type of hair when Ethiopia is comprised of many tribes and the hair literally runs from curly, coily, spongey, cottony and c-napps.

Best,
Almond Eyes


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## almond eyes (Dec 8, 2009)

I don't agree that every black woman wants swanging hair that's very American thinking. In America, its a big deal to be racially mixed while in Africa it just is; your a person and you are identified with your ethnic group or paternal or maternal line rather than race.

And I will reiterate my point again and again. Subsaharan Africans may vary in skin colour, features and body type but you will never find one with stick straight hair unless they are sick. 

Best,
Almond Eyes


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## LadyRaider (Dec 8, 2009)

Some Indians (as from India) are black and they have straight hair.

I'm not following what is meant by "black" in this thread. 

We have established that race is social, not genetic. There is no package of traits that go in a set in accordance to skin color. 

Black people do have straight hair. Black Indians (India) for one group. 

Let me see if I can find that map of skin color in the world. Here it is. So many black people have straight hair... those from India for example.


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## Helpmeblongagain (Dec 8, 2009)

I have never seen a black person with type 1 hair. Ever. Type 2, yes.

ETA: not saying it doesn't exist...I just haven't witnessed it.


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## LadyRaider (Dec 8, 2009)

Hair looks a little wavy though.






aborigines


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## Helpmeblongagain (Dec 8, 2009)

^^ as previously mentioned...the issue may be that the definition of black is subjective..because I definitely would not consider the woman in the above pic black.


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## LadyRaider (Dec 8, 2009)

That's fine. There's no definition in the textbooks of what "race" is. A huge part of what makes you black is your self-identification. 

I know a girl in my class who is from Guyana whose ancestors are from India who if I put my arm next to hers, her skin is darker than mine. 

I know that the principal at my old school was Latino but also darker than me. 

I guess what I am saying that dark skin color doesn't come with a package of a certain type hair.  If "black" means something different than dark skin... then, I guess that's why they call race a "social construct" and not genetic.


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## LadyRaider (Dec 8, 2009)




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## almond eyes (Dec 8, 2009)

Black skin colour is different than being a Black African.

Best,
Almond Eyes


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## LadyRaider (Dec 8, 2009)




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## LadyRaider (Dec 8, 2009)

almond eyes said:


> Black skin colour is different than being a Black African.
> 
> Best,
> Almond Eyes



Ah! So the thread is about AFRICANS (black) with straight hair.
Got it. I'll stop posting pics of Australians/New Zealanders.


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## LiberianGirl (Dec 8, 2009)

tada1 said:


> I didn't mean to imply that West-Africans are not mixed* because* they seem to have mostly type four hair.* IMHO it is a generally understood fact that rural West-Africans avoid inter-racial marriage for cultural reasons. In fact, in many West-African villages, people don't marry outside their own tribes. My point was, rural west Africans are generally unlikely to be mixed and they seem to have thick type four hair. *
> 
> My question to the poster then was, if this is the case how can one ask white folk to look to Africans for an explanation for their straight hair when the group of Africans that are best known for being as pure bred African as possible DO NOT have straight hair?
> 
> ...


 
What countries are you referring to in West Africa?


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## NikStarrr (Dec 8, 2009)

almond eyes said:


> Liya does not have type one hair. I have followed her for a long time when she competed in Face of Africa. Liya's natural hair texture is curly.
> 
> And Many Ethiopians do not have 3b/3c hair; that is a stereotype. We only notice the ones who have that type of hair when Ethiopia is comprised of many tribes and the hair literally runs from curly, coily, spongey, cottony and c-napps.
> 
> ...



I didn't say ALL ethopians have 3b/3c--but I would say MANY.  I have quite a few Ethio/Eri friends (there is a big population of them here in ATL) and all of them are 3b/3c.  The majority of them that I've encountered period (not just here in ATL) do.  I have met others who don't.  But from my personal experience, I would still say "many".


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## Maracujá (Dec 8, 2009)

LadyRaider said:


> Ah! So the thread is about AFRICANS (black) with straight hair.
> Got it. I'll stop posting pics of Australians/New Zealanders.



I haven't read the entire thread so someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was about black people as in descendants of the continent of Africa, not just Africans in particular.


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## Eisani (Dec 8, 2009)




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## almond eyes (Dec 8, 2009)

Hello NikStar, first there is a reason why it might appear that all the Ethiopians you encounter have 3 range hair: 1) There are others who don't have the typical Habesha look so they might be regarded as Rwandan, Somalian, or even Sudanese 2) In Ethiopia, there are so many tribes and not everyone has that typical 3 range hair and 3) Ethiopia like many African countries is very poor and those who come from the more rural areas who are not from the same tribes as those in the capital cities do have the opportunities to come to the States and Europe.

Many of my Ethiopians friends do not have 3 range hair; they have type four hair. And two of them had very damaged relaxed hair unlike the stereotype that they all have long luxurious hair. 

Best,
Almond Eyes


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## almond eyes (Dec 8, 2009)

The argument began to split off because some African-American and Caribbean-American women pointed out that because of racial mixing in the States and the Caribbean that some of their relatives or friends had this type one hair; thus making it possible for a black person to have straight hair. 

Then, it was pointed out that on the continent of Africa even with racial and multi-ethnic mixing that it was extremely rare and non-existent to find a black African with stick straight hair. And people are determined to prove that it can't be true that somehow there must be some black Africans with stick straight hair so now some are posting pictures of black people (Sri-Lankan, South East Asians, Aborigines) with straight hair that are not Africans to prove a point. However, these black people do not have the same DNA composition as black Africans.

So I guess the bottom line is that those black people in America and Caribbean see themselves as having the same genetic composition as Indians, Sri-Lankans, Guyanese, etc because afterall race is fluid and while Black Africans just didn't get the memo that our genes retained the afro-hair. 


Best,
Almond Eyes


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## Maracujá (Dec 8, 2009)

almond eyes said:


> So I guess the bottom line is that those black people in America and Caribbean see themselves as having the same genetic composition as Indians, Sri-Lankans, Guyanese, etc because afterall race is fluid and while Black Africans just didn't get the memo that our genes retained the afro-hair.



Interesting.


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## Kurlee (Dec 8, 2009)

why are "black" people soo insistent in internalizing a concept that DOES NOT serve any purpose except to marginalize them? The concept of race is NOT real. The mongoloid, negroid stuff is not accurate. Genetics does not work that way. The 1/2 this and 1/4 that is not at all accurate. Why do we insist on holding on to these notions, when they have NO basis in fact and are actually oppressive? I don't get it.


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## Kurlee (Dec 8, 2009)

jamaraa said:


> Genetics is nowhere near this straight forward.


EXACTLY!!! and the genes that 'decide' skin colour are in no way related to 'hair type' soooooooooooo..........


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## almond eyes (Dec 8, 2009)

Then my next question is why are we as black women on this site? If black women have the same hair issues as White or Indian women then why then not join those sites. Obviously, we have different hair care needs and I could less about black women with naturally stick straight hair because I know its not the norm. It only becomes relevant if that women/man has a relaxer which again is chemically altered hair and requires special care. Many of us are on here I suspect because black hair whether it is natural or relaxed is different from the other races because it is naturally drier and curlier/coily and therefore requires different care than our other counterparts and we want to support in each other in that endeavour. Where is the forum for black women with naturally stick straight hair? 

Best,
Almond Eyes


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## ccd (Dec 8, 2009)

Eisani said:


>


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## Almaz (Dec 8, 2009)

They don't need one 





almond eyes said:


> Then my next question is why are we as black women on this site? If black women have the same hair issues as White or Indian women then why then not join those sites. Obviously, we have different hair care needs and I could less about black women with naturally stick straight hair because I know its not the norm. It only becomes relevant if that women/man has a relaxer which again is chemically altered hair and requires special care. Many of us are on here I suspect because black hair whether it is natural or relaxed is different from the other races because it is naturally drier and curlier/coily and therefore requires different care than our other counterparts and we want to support in each other in that endeavour. Where is the forum for black women with naturally stick straight hair?
> 
> Best,
> Almond Eyes


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## ccd (Dec 8, 2009)

NikStar said:


> Liya's hair is actually curly.  She's like a 3b-ish (like a lot of Ethiopians.  I didn't say ALL but "a lot". haha).  Here's a quick pic I could dig up.  But I've seen others...



I don't know what type she is but she's in my siggy  Beautiful whatever type....very versatile!


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## almond eyes (Dec 8, 2009)

I say let's not leave any black woman out let's create a forum for the black women with naturally stick straight hair. Join the movement!!!!!!!!!!

Best,
Almond Eyes


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## Mz.MoMo5235 (Dec 8, 2009)

what i dont get is (and forgive me if it was already mentioned, but this is a long arse thread yall) why do mixed people with type 1 hair dont count when there are tones of mixed people with type 4 hair?  for example, in the caribbeans or south america? there's a varying degree of mixtures (some appear to have no african blood, others appear to be full black, and the rest are as mixed up as they come).  you can see a very fair skinned latina with light eyes, european features and type 4 kink, and have a very dark skinned latina with very "black" features, and be a type 1 or 2????

i'm confused and my brain is hurting


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## otegwu (Dec 8, 2009)

ok, It seem that this thread agrees that yes there are 'black people' with type 1 hair, but now the definition of 'black' is more complicated then once considered. having dark brown skin, or even not,....is now assumed to mean 'black', so thats why images of  Indians, Sri-lankan's and Aborigines are being posted, so yes if thats the case then I repeat 'black people' can have type 1 hair. 


If I assume the term 'black people' meaning Africans or individuals of African decent (1-10 generations), then I doubt the chance of having type 1 hair is possible without genetic mixing with those of a genetic disposition of type 1 hair.


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## almond eyes (Dec 8, 2009)

Please show me a picture of a dark black latina woman with stick straight hair (not blown out or relaxed) and my next question is that while we may claim them to be black many who we are categorising as black Latinas/nos do not consider themselves as such in many of these South American countries they have their own categorisations based on their racial compositions.

Best,
Almond Eyes


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## Kurlee (Dec 8, 2009)

Mz.MoMo5235 said:


> what i dont get is (and forgive me if it was already mentioned, but this is a long arse thread yall) why do mixed people with type 1 hair dont count when there are tones of mixed people with type 4 hair?  for example, in the caribbeans or south america? there's a varying degree of mixtures (some appear to have no african blood, others appear to be full black, and the rest are as mixed up as they come).  you can see a very fair skinned latina with light eyes, european features and type 4 kink, and have a very dark skinned latina with very "black" features, and be a type 1 or 2????
> 
> i'm confused and my brain is hurting


People have it stuck in their brains that darker people inherently are "more black" than those who are lighter, which implies that darker = kinky and lighter = looser hair.  No matter how wrong it is or how biologically unsound it is, they hold on to it. It is not accurate or true, but I digress.


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## Mz.MoMo5235 (Dec 8, 2009)

almond eyes said:


> Please show me a picture of a dark black latina woman with stick straight hair (not blown out or relaxed) and my next question is that while we may claim them to be black many who we are categorising as black Latinas/nos do not consider themselves as such in many of these South American countries they have their own categorisations based on their racial compositions.
> 
> Best,
> Almond Eyes



i dont have any pix (plus who's the say the pix i could post arent blow outs) but i know 1st hand its possible as i've seen them, just walk the streets of low east manhattan and you'll catch a few.  go to the islands and you'll see a few more.  i'm not saying its the norm or anything, but it is possible.  hell i had type 1 hair until i was about 5, then it changed. but some keep it...


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## Mz.MoMo5235 (Dec 8, 2009)

oh yeah! also about the "they dont think they're black" thing.

that is true, several of them do feel that way (half of my dads side of the fam are perfect examples of that).  but them denying that they're black doesnt change fact.  i full puerto rican but i also not only admit but embrace everything black about me.  i've never considered it to be 2 separate things. saying "i'm black" flows of my tongue as easily as "i'm puerto rican"...  its the same.  the only difference from the black people here vs the black people off the islands is our ancestors were forced to speak a different language than english.  they were still ripped from their home, still raped and beaten, still forced to conform to anothers social acceptance...  instead of working the cotton fields we were working the sugar cane plantations.

black is black really...  a dog can say its a cat all they want, but they're no less of a dog

and i know the above has little to nothing to do with the op...  i just had to comment on the comment is all

and if any one is interested, i would say to check out this youtuber http://www.youtube.com/user/LaMorenaReina69

and this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb-qcOqNInQ

all the vids are great and show that we dont all deny that we are black...


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## Almaz (Dec 8, 2009)

I love her tubes came across her a week ago

I have seen some very Black Sudanese from the south with Jet black faces and straight hair and they are not arab because the arabs are killing them like roaches. There are somali Bantus like that too and somalis don't mix with them because they are BANTUS  




Mz.MoMo5235 said:


> oh yeah! also about the "they dont think they're black" thing.
> 
> that is true, several of them do feel that way (half of my dads side of the fam are perfect examples of that). but them denying that they're black doesnt change fact. i full puerto rican but i also not only admit but embrace everything black about me. i've never considered it to be 2 separate things. saying "i'm black" flows of my tongue as easily as "i'm puerto rican"... its the same. the only difference from the black people here vs the black people off the islands is our ancestors were forced to speak a different language than english. they were still ripped from their home, still raped and beaten, still forced to conform to anothers social acceptance... instead of working the cotton fields we were working the sugar cane plantations.
> 
> ...


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## LadyRaider (Dec 8, 2009)

I am positive that black Latinos consider themselves black. Many of them are part of the African diaspora just like us... particularly in South America. They have a lot of the same problems. (Someone mentioned a fan test in Puerto Rico in another thread.)

I'm positive that black Indians (from India) consider themselves black. There's an ugly caste system at play in many countries and black is definitely something that is noted.

I did hear that in Cuba the black Cubans are more favored? Not sure if that's right though. 

It's funny because on my sports board, a wide receiver named Alex Torres was called "white." And then a bunch of people said, he's not white, he's hispanic. We were having a similar argument. Here Latinos can't be black. There, Latinos can't be white. 

But haven't you ever heard on the category, "white, non-hispanic" on forms?

You better believe there are white and black Latinos.


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## Mz.MoMo5235 (Dec 8, 2009)

i favor black cubans...  they're hot  oh yeah!!!


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## Pretty Star (Dec 8, 2009)

This is an old thred so I doubt the OP will come back to clarify, but when she said "black" people with type 1 hair, I thought she was referring to black americans with 2 black parents. If that is the case, then my answer still stands that I have never seeen a black person with type 1 hair. I'm not saying they don't exist but I've just never personally seen it. If by "black", she meant Indians, Brazilians, Latinos, Sri Lankans etc, then yes I can think of some people in those catagories with type 1 hair. 

I also see that some people have created a new definition of mixed.Where I come from, mixed means biracial as in you have parents who are of differing races. I acknowledge the fact that many black Americans have some white or American Indian ancestry but to me, the time frame (i.e a hundred years back in the blood line), distance of the relative,lack of abilty to trace (i.e lack of relatives from other races that you know personally and can identify by name) etc does not lend itself to considering them biracial.  If your mom is black and your dad is white (or whatever combination) you're biracial. If your great-great-great grand daddy was white, well  that is not the same thing.   Apparently, to some people it is.

I also noticed, that to some posters there is no such thing as race. I'm not going to get into genetics but I can tell you that the concept of race absolutely exists in society. There are instances in which you will be treated differently as a brown person and there are issues in society that people of color must be aware of (discrimination,racism etc) Not identifying with a race is not going to change the fact that as a person with brown skin in a society that is dominated by people with white skin, it may be harder for you to get a job, or a loan, or a cab , or you may be subjected to cruelty because of your skin color.  You will not become immune to these problems because you chose not to identify a race. These problems will exist regardless of how you choose to identify yourself.


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## Mz.MoMo5235 (Dec 9, 2009)

Pretty Star said:


> This is an old thred so I doubt the OP will come back to clarify, but when she said "black" people with type 1 hair, I thought she was referring to black americans with 2 black parents. If that is the case, then my answer still stands that I have never seeen a black person with type 1 hair. I'm not saying they don't exist but I've just never personally seen it. If by "black", she meant Indians, Brazilians, Latinos, Sri Lankans etc, then yes I can think of some people in those catagories with type 1 hair.
> 
> I also see that some people have created a new definition of mixed.Where I come from, mixed means biracial as in you have parents who are of differing races. I acknowledge the fact that many black Americans have some white or American Indian ancestry but to me, the time frame (i.e a hundred years back in the blood line), distance of the relative,lack of abilty to trace (i.e lack of relatives from other races that you know personally and can identify by name) etc does not lend itself to considering them biracial.  If your mom is black and your dad is white (or whatever combination) you're biracial. If your great-great-great grand daddy was white, well  that is not the same thing.   Apparently, to some people it is.
> 
> I also noticed, that to some posters there is no such thing as race. I'm not going to get into genetics but I can tell you that the concept of race absolutely exists in society. There are instances in which you will be treated differently as a brown person and there are issues in society that people of color must be aware of (discrimination,racism etc) Not identifying with a race is not going to change the fact that as a person with brown skin in a society that is dominated by people with white skin, it may be harder for you to get a job, or a loan, or a cab , or you may be subjected to cruelty because of your skin color.  You will not become immune to these problems because you chose not to identify a race. These problems will exist regardless of how you choose to identify yourself.



then by you definition of what's mixed and whats not...  latinos would still be black and not mixed. my dad is a black latino, his dad and his mother are black latinos, and from pix, their parents were black latinos...  yet there is still a large variation of hair types and eye color...  so if you can find a black latino with type 1 hair who's parents and grandparents are black latino... then there are black people with type one hair. 

now by no means am i trying to be a smart a$$...  but this is the exact point i was trying to make...  

its like if you have someone who's black/white, and they marry someone who is black/white.  they then have a kid, that kid marries a kid who's also the same mix (both parents) and they have a kid... and so on and so on... now lets do this like 5x... if that kid comes out, lets say, light skinned lets say my complexion) with 3c/4a mix hair, we wouldnt hesitate to call them black.  but if the kid came out lets say light skinned (again my complexion) with 1b/2a mixed hair, then they dont count cause they're mixed.  i dont like that... we need to claim all of us, we cant pick and choose.

now the indians and the new zealand kids, i can get the point of not being od african blood line (i dont know how true or not true that is).  but when we talk about african americans, south americans, and the caribbeans,  we're the same people yall, just a different up bringing and a slightly different mix (same africans, different europeans SOMETIMES). 

AND I THINK WE ARE OFFICIALLY OFF TOPIC lmao


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## Pretty Star (Dec 9, 2009)

Mz.MoMo5235 said:


> then by you definition of what's mixed and whats not... latinos would still be black and not mixed. my dad is a black latino, his dad and his mother are black latinos, and from pix, their parents were black latinos... yet there is still a large variation of hair types and eye color... so if you can find a black latino with type 1 hair who's parents and grandparents are black latino... then there are black people with type one hair.
> 
> now by no means am i trying to be a smart a$$... but this is the exact point i was trying to make...
> 
> ...


 

Actually I personally don't consider Latino's to be black. I consider a Latino to be a person of Hispanic descent. Being of Hispanic descent and being of black American descent are 2 different things to me. Sammy Sosa is a black Latino which is different than Michael Jordan who is a black American. To me.  I'm just sharing my opinions based on my personal experiences,culture etc. It's my opinion. I could clarify/expound but then I'd have to go into my own racial background and I don't feel like  having that discussion on here.

We are very off topic. I never expected the thred to take this twist. I wish I wouldn't have bumped it.


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## metro_qt (Jan 23, 2010)

almond eyes said:


> \
> *So I guess the bottom line is that those black people in America and Caribbean see themselves as having the same genetic composition as Indians, Sri-Lankans, Guyanese*, etc because afterall race is fluid and while Black Africans just didn't get the memo that our genes retained the afro-hair.
> 
> 
> ...



Waiiiiit a second.
*I* am guyanese, and i have the same genetic composition as a *guyanese* because ... that is where i am from!

The indian population you may be referring to came over to south america just as the africans did, so... we, all being born there or descendents of those born there are *all* guyanese.... sooo.... whatever 'genetic makeup' is that of a guyanese is what us black people have too...


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## workingonme (Jan 24, 2010)

I'm sooo not jumping into the defining "Black" or what's possible debates. I will say that one of my brothers is type 1, and my gd and a cousin are type 2. They are not mixed. My brother has always been embarrassed by his straight hair, so he keeps a very low fade.


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## curlicarib (Jan 24, 2010)

Wow! This tread has definitely made for interesting reading! 

In answer to the OP's original question - yes. Several of my family members have type 1ish hair. And I say "ish" because it may not be completely "stick" straght, but not enough waves to matter.  Now, this raises the question as to whether or they would be considered black for the purposes of answering the question.  My family, like many of the ladies here, are of afro, latin, indus, asian, euro descent (typical caribbean). Many of these traits are evident in all of us, be it skin, hair or eye color, hair texture or facial features. The only is constant is that we all consider ourselves black - both culturally and racially. Although, it seems, not by the standards of some here - but I dear someone to tell me I ain't black enough! lol


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## Oasis (Jan 24, 2010)

I've never seen a black person with type 1 hair. My grandma's hair has pretty much gotten straight _with age_ but it still has a wave to it and I wouldn't consider it type 1. I'd like to see an unmixed black person with type 1 hair since it's apparently pretty common. *I hate disclaimers but I know how folks are. Unmixed meaning parents or grandparents not of a different race.*


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## soon2bsl (Jul 8, 2010)

Bumping this thread! My great-great aunt is black and has type 1 hair. She's never had a relaxer and she said her hair has always been straight. She would put rollers in it to have curl when she was younger. She keeps it chin length now.


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## tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT (Jul 8, 2010)

CatSuga said:


> Poohbear you are causing confusion.
> It is just genitics.
> Now if we are talking about blacks (Africa Americans) they come in all colors and hair types. The reason being is because they are African *American*. That *American* peice is what put that type 3 curl into their hair. Be it White, Indian, Arab, or Spainsh, SOMTHING was mixed in that produced this effect.
> 
> The truth being I have never seen a full blooded person of the Negroid human race straight out of African (with an ancestory line of full blooded Negroids) with type 1 hair because they are not genitically arranged for straight type 1 hair.


???????????


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## Mz.MoMo5235 (Jul 8, 2010)

curlicarib said:


> - but I dear someone to tell me I ain't black enough! lol



thank you and thank you again


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## Mz.MoMo5235 (Jul 8, 2010)

on a side note.  i cringe every time this thread is bumped yet i always walk right on in lmao


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## equestrian (Jul 8, 2010)

Sounds unlikely. I'd think they'd be at least 3a. Maybe 2c...


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## naturalgyrl5199 (Sep 1, 2010)

Yes...My coworker......She is from Trinidad, and is of Indian (not Native American) but the Country India...descent...But not directly (immediate family)....Her whole family is from the Caribbean, she has a Caribbean Accent, but she explained her ethniciy...She identifies herself as black...eats caribbean and &quot;indian&quot; food a lot....hates American food, though she's been here 20 years....LOL

Both her parents are black, but of Indian Descent  also...When you see her it looks like any African American sistah with a relaxer, but she's never had one in her life....She just roller-sets all the time...She cut her hair 2 months ago to SL, but now its already APL...


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## naturalgyrl5199 (Sep 1, 2010)

^^^^^Ummm....I guess she would be mixed (but she's darker than me!)...though she terribly doesn't look like it...Plus none of her more direct descendants are 100% (East) Indian....For me...she is black....There are lots of black people who don't require a perm to have type 1 hair....even type 2 is a rarity IMO.....Whats the big deal? Either you know someone with perm straight hair or you don't.....(shrug)


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## kmn1980 (Sep 1, 2010)

I read somewhere last year that Africans genes have the greatest genetic diversity. That said, I don't think we can say that the reason a Black person has type 1,2,3 hair is because of having a mixed lineage because based on the report, type 1,2, and 3 hair is also an African trait.


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