# Historical Proof for Sabbath Day Change



## discobiscuits (Sep 18, 2009)

This is a YT video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH8520YG-gI

It lays out the historical proof that the Sabbath was changed by man from Saturday to Sunday. 

We already have threads that show by scripture the Sabbath.

What say you?


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## Prudent1 (Sep 19, 2009)

I think there is a lot of evidence to support this. I don't think it will make me change the day that I observe the Sabbath on.:scratchch IMHO I think there are so many other things that are of importance to the heart of God like how we treat other ppl and what we do on a daily basis in our homes and at work. Don't misunderstand me the sabbath is holy just like the tithe. I try to observe the sabbath as holy. If my pastor announced God instructed him to observe the sabbath on another day and I prayed and got confirmation then I would change immediately! I just don't know if we, the body of Christ, will ever be able to come to consensus on this issue.  I know that God absolutely knows our hearts.  For the record, I think you are correct on your findings though.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 19, 2009)

http://www.catholic.com/library/Sabbath_or_Sunday.asp

The first creation, rest on the Sabbath, the second, the Resurrection on Sunday.  It was practiced in the very earliest "church," long before Constantine decreed it into law in 321 AD.

Athanasius


"The Sabbath was the end of the first creation, the Lord’s day was the beginning of the second, in which he renewed and restored the old in the same way as he prescribed that they should formerly observe the Sabbath as a memorial of the end of the first things, so we honor the Lord’s day as being the memorial of the new creation" (On Sabbath and Circumcision 3 [A.D. 345]).

The Letter of Barnabas


"We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead" (Letter of Barnabas 15:6–8 [A.D. 74]).



Ignatius of Antioch


"[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death" (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).


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## Sharpened (Sep 19, 2009)

Jesus kept the Sabbath when he waited to rise on Sunday. That is all the confirmation I needed to keep the Fourth Commandment. I only regret not knowing sooner.


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## momi (Sep 19, 2009)

Both of the arguments for Saturday and Sunday are pretty compelling.

I think I need to fast and pray about this.  This guy has some really interesting videos.


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## divya (Sep 19, 2009)

The Scriptures tell us the seventh day is the Sabbath and that we ought to keep it holy. As the man stated, Sunday worship is not biblical. It is man-made tradition.


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## divya (Sep 19, 2009)

Catholic clergy have long affirmed that Catholicism is responsible for Sunday-worship and that it is not biblical:


*1. *  “For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. *Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the [Roman Catholic] church outside the Bible.”* Catholic Virginian, October 3, 1947, p. 9, article “To Tell You the Truth.”


*2.* “Question: How prove you that the church had power to command feasts and holydays?
“Answer: *By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of and therefore they fondly contradict themselves by keeping Sunday strictly*, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same church.

“Question: Have you any other way of proving that the church has power to institute festivals of precept?
*“Answer: Had she not such power, she could not a done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; -she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day of the week, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.*” Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism On the Obedience Due to the Church, 3rd edition, Chapter 2, p. 174 (Imprimatur, John Cardinal McCloskey, Archbishop of New York)


*3*. “Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. *‘The day of the Lord’ was chosen, not from any direction noted in the Scriptures, but from the (Catholic) Church’s sense of its own power...*People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.” St. Catherine Church Sentinel, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995.


*4. **“Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday...Now the Church...instituted*, by God’s authority, Sunday as the day of worship. This same Church, by the same divine authority, taught the doctrine of Purgatory long before the Bible was made. *We have, therefore, the same authority for Purgatory as we have for Sunday.”* Martin J. Scott, Things Catholics Are Asked About, 1927 edition, p. 136.


*5.* “Question - Which is the Sabbath day?
“Answer - Saturday is the Sabbath day.
“Question - Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
“Answer - *We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.”* Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50, 3rd edition, 1957


*6.* “Some theologians have held that God likewise directly determined the Sunday as the day of worship in the New Law, that He Himself has explicitly substituted the Sunday for the Sabbath. But this theory is now entirely abandoned. *It is now commonly held that God simply gave His Church the power to set aside whatever day or days she would deem suitable as Holy Days. The (Roman Catholic) Church chose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in the course of time added other days as holy days.”* John Laux, A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies, 1936 edition, vol. 1, p. 51.


*7.* “St John speaks of the Lord’s day (Rev 1:10) but he does not tell us what day of the week that was, much less does he tell us what day was to take the place of the Sabbath ordained in the commandments. St.Luke speaks of the disciples meeting together to break bread on the first day of the week. Acts 20:7. And St. Paul (1 Cor.16:2) orders that on the first day of the week the Corinthians should lay in store what they designated to bestow in charity on the faithful in Judea: but neither the one or the other tells us that this first day of the week was to be henceforth a day of worship, and the Christian Sabbath; so that truly the best authority we have for this ancient custom is the testimony of the church. *And therefore those who pretend to be such religious observers of Sunday, whilst they take no notice of other festivals ordained by the same church authority, show that they act more by humor, than by religion; since Sundays and holidays all stand upon the same foundation, namely the ordinance of the (Roman Catholic) church.” *Catholic Christian Instructed, 17th edition, p. 272-273.


*8.* “*Protestantism, in discarding the authority of the (Roman Catholic) Church, has no good reasons for its Sunday theory, and ought logically to keep Saturday as the Sabbath*.” John Gilmary Shea, American Catholic Quarterly Review, January 1883.


* 9.* *“The Catholic church for over one thousand years before the existence of a Protestant, by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday*...The Protestant World at its birth found the Christian Sabbath too strongly entrenched to run counter to its existence; it was therefore placed under the necessity of acquiescing in the arrangement, thus implying the (Catholic) Church’s right to change the day, for over three hundred years. *The Christian Sabbath is therefore to this day, the acknowledged offspring of the Catholic Church as spouse of the Holy Ghost, without a word of remonstrance from the Protestant World.” *James Cardinal Gibbons in the Catholic Mirror, September 23, 1983.

http://www.godssabbathtruth.com/catholicchurchchangedsabbathsunday.html


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## blazingthru (Sep 19, 2009)

Nymphe said:


> Jesus kept the Sabbath when he waited to rise on Sunday. That is all the confirmation I needed to keep the Fourth Commandment. I only regret not knowing sooner.


 
I felt the same thing but now is our time.  Right now is the perfect time for us and I have accepted that.  I am moving things around in my church because I want to love all people and I don't know if this would have been me a year ago. You know. Gods time is the perfect time.  He found me at the right time in my life.  hallueiah, Thank you Jesus.


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## momi (Sep 19, 2009)

divya said:


> The Scriptures tell us the seventh day is the Sabbath and that we ought to keep it holy. As the man stated, Sunday worship is not biblical. It is man-made tradition.


 
Im confused. erplexed

I thought Sunday worship began because Jesus rose on Sunday and the New Testament church gathered together on this day to honor this. 

Acts 20:7 (King James Version)

 7And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Romans 14:5 

5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 

 6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.


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## JinaRicci (Sep 19, 2009)

Thank you for posting this 1star.  It's very important for us to see the historical evidence for the change which is consistent with what scripture tells us about the Sabbath day.  

I can understand how hard it would be for someone who has worshipped on Sunday all their life to accept this especially since this is what most of the world does.  It might sound crazy and look crazy to keep the seventh day when there are so many reasons that are put forth for Sunday worship.  Still, no matter the reason- Christ rising on Sunday, the laws being abolished, the history record stands as evidence of what really happened.  

*When all is said and done, the question is how important is this to God?  *

The only way to truly answer this question is to pray, ask God & search the scriptures.  Remember that God doesn't want to keep us from anything good.  He will reveal- we need to be willing to hear His voice.  I know some are struggling with this- it's a tough one & I pray that God will continue to guide you.


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## rafikichick92 (Sep 20, 2009)

JinaRicci said:


> Thank you for posting this 1star. It's very important for us to see the historical evidence for the change which is consistent with what scripture tells us about the Sabbath day.
> 
> I can understand how hard it would be for someone who has worshipped on Sunday all their life to accept this especially since this is what most of the world does. It might sound crazy and look crazy to keep the seventh day when there are so many reasons that are put forth for Sunday worship. Still, no matter the reason- Christ rising on Sunday, the laws being abolished, the history record stands as evidence of what really happened.
> 
> ...


 
This is what I always ask myself when it comes to issues like this--is it important to God that we get it 100% right. I think the answer is yes and no. Obviously, God wants us to know the truth and to act on it, and I think He will guide us in the discovery of this truth if we ask/trust Him and generally behave like wise, sensible people. I don't think, however, that if we're not exactly sure about what is true or if we're genuinely misinformed that He is going to be angry with us. 

What I always wonder is how does this apply to the parts of the world (like South America) where Monday is considered the first day of the week and Sunday is considered the last? Would Saturday still be considered the Sabbath there?


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## JinaRicci (Sep 20, 2009)

momi said:


> Im confused. erplexed
> 
> I thought Sunday worship began because Jesus rose on Sunday and the New Testament church gathered together on this day to honor this.
> 
> ...


 
Remember how specific God was about the Sabbath- what day it is, how to worship, what to do/what not to do? (Exodus 20:8) If He had changed the Sabbath, wouldn't He have been just as specific? 

For me using these texts to justify the change to Sunday is confusing because throughout the Bible the importance of the seventh day Sabbath is noted. Notice in Acts they are talking about gathering on the 1st day but it doesn't indicate that it is the Sabbath. 

Then the question is why would God change the Sabbath to Sunday in honor of Christ's resurrection? When would have that first happened? Jesus stayed in the tomb to keep the Sabbath and rose on Sunday. Was that Sunday also kept as the Sabbath? 

We also need to look at the significance of the Sabbath. It is a sign, a remembrance of creation week. Because He rested on the seventh day after 6 days of creating the earth, and sanctified it, we rest too as a sign that we recognize Him as our creator (Genesis 2: 1-3). 

God is still our creator- that hasn't changed. Why would the sign- the Sabbath change?


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## JinaRicci (Sep 20, 2009)

rafikichick92 said:


> This is what I always ask myself when it comes to issues like this--is it important to God that we get it 100% right. I think the answer is yes and no. Obviously, God wants us to know the truth and to act on it, and I think He will guide us in the discovery of this truth if we ask/trust Him and generally behave like wise, sensible people. I don't think, however, that if we're not exactly sure about what is true or if we're genuinely misinformed that He is going to be angry with us.
> 
> What I always wonder is how does this apply to the parts of the world (like South America) where Monday is considered the first day of the week and Sunday is considered the last? Would Saturday still be considered the Sabbath there?


 
Yes- The Sabbath is observed on Saturday around the world. The biblical week predates any man-made calendar and calendar change. In South America the word Saturday is 'Sabado' in both Spanish and Portuguese. Even the language is consistent with the biblical week...

No- God is not going to be angry with us for being misinformed. He holds us accountable for what we know. You're right- the Holy Spirit has to be the One leading us into all truth. At the same time, we can't decide that we won't be informed and cut off the Holy Spirit from revealing truth to us. 

Is it important to God that we get it 100% right? 

Well, first off we can't speak for God. When we think about everything else- not lying, stealing, coveting, killing- is it important to God that we get it 100% right? What does He say about the Sabbath?


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## blazingthru (Sep 20, 2009)

*



I thought Sunday worship began because Jesus rose on Sunday and the New Testament church gathered together on this day to honor this. 

Acts 20:7 (King James Version)

7And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight

Click to expand...

* 
This is a interesting passage,  Why was this included?  Paul was leaving that day so he spoke all night. but the point of the story is no one wanted to leave. they stayed all night to hear him, who knows if they would ever see him again.  it got so late that one person fell out the window it wasn't the day that was important. it was the desire to hear the message all day and all night if possible.  As Christians they met everyday. They worshipped everyday. we can worship everyday but the Sabbath is a holy day. We obey Gods commandments.  

Acts 20:7
As Paul spoke on and on, a young man named Eutychus, sitting on the windowsill, became very drowsy. Finally, he fell sound asleep and dropped three stories to his death below. *10* Paul went down, bent over him, and took him into his arms. “Don’t worry,” he said, “he’s alive!” *11* Then they all went back upstairs, shared in the Lord’s Supper,[d] and ate together. Paul continued talking to them until dawn, and then he left. *12* Meanwhile, the young man was taken home unhurt, and everyone was greatly relieved.


*44* And all the believers met together in one place and shared everything they had. *45* They sold their property and possessions and shared the money with those in need. *46* They worshiped together at the Temple each day, met in homes for the Lord’s Supper, and shared their meals with great joy and generosity[j]—*47* all the while praising God and enjoying the goodwill of all the people. And each day the Lord added to their fellowship those who were being saved.


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## Sharpened (Sep 20, 2009)

momi said:


> Acts 20:7 (King James Version)
> 
> 7And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
> 
> ...



When I read those, it tells me that we can break bread and commune on any day, not about the Sabbath. Paul and the other apostles were on the go, so they had to do that. The Sabbath is merely the day of rest.


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## blazingthru (Sep 20, 2009)

For me the Sabbath is not just a day of rest.  The Sabbath is a holy Day. We spend out time with the Lord.  We think on wonderful things that God has provided for us.  For me. Its a day that I dont' think of nothing else but what God has done for me and what he is doing for me and what he going to do for me and others.  I spend time in prayer in fellowshipping and learning. I visit those who cannot make it out, I pray with them. I sing with them and read scripture.  I have a meal with others. I don't cook, I don't buy anything.  I don't sell anything and I don't work for myself, I work for others. I serve others and it gives me great pleasure.  I get so excited about the Sabbath. I love service, I am so excited when the message is starting because I know its going to blow me away.  I get so excited about eating because I have the opportunity to serve someone and get to know someone and share how I got there and I get to hear how they got there and its so wonderful.  Its been an extra blessing that so far everyone loves my cooking.  thats is truly a blessing.  I never cook and now I cook every friday for Sabbath and I got the elders looking forward to it and you know thats good. I make enough to feed thirty people and that is encouraging others to do the same. I would like more people to stay and attend Bible Study and share their lives. I think that brings healing to some and that open up door for others and now our bible Study had grown.  So now I see why its important to honor the sabbath, you can touch so many lives, especially since you put your life on the back burner.  Old days I go to  service and go right to the market and go home and cook and my mind never got a rest from the stress I went through all week. Even if I didn't go to the market I still went home and made Sunday dinner and I was tired and then I made dessert and right after Dinner I would clean up and mop the floor and so forth and then serve the desert and then clean up and watch the Sunday night movies or whatever and go to bed before I got a chance to clear my  mind I am at work.  Not anymore, thats over


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## rafikichick92 (Sep 20, 2009)

JinaRicci said:


> Yes- The Sabbath is observed on Saturday around the world. The biblical week predates any man-made calendar and calendar change. In South America the word Saturday is 'Sabado' in both Spanish and Portuguese. Even the language is consistent with the biblical week...
> 
> No- God is not going to be angry with us for being misinformed. He holds us accountable for what we know. You're right- the Holy Spirit has to be the One leading us into all truth. At the same time, we can't decide that we won't be informed and cut off the Holy Spirit from revealing truth to us.
> 
> ...


 
@ the first part -- thanks. That's what I'm thinking that it has to do with man-made calendar changes, but my larger point is, can we trace back and see these calendar changes and match the current day name to the ancient day one, or should it even matter? You brought up a good example of this--the Spanish/Portuguese name for Saturday, Sabado, which means Sabbath (according to my Spanish language Bible). Does anyone know of any others?

2nd paragraph -- Thanks wasn't enough--my point exactly.

3rd paragraph -- What I'm saying is that God wants us to try to get everything He says to do 100% right. And obviously He tells us to keep the Sabbath and expects us to do that 100% as He says to.

What I was trying to get at was that to me (again, to me) it's not in God's character (what I know of it from reading the Bible) to condemn us if we did not know that the Sabbath was actually on Saturday and we did keep it, only we did it on Sunday because we didn't know any better, as many people do not. Technically in this situation (which is a plausible one, I think), a person is not obeying God 100% correctly, but they genuinely don't know this. I don't think a loving, merciful God would be angry at a person for that.

Again, as a firm believer in Proverbs 30:5-6, I'm not trying to speak for God at all. Just stating things as I understand them at this point.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 20, 2009)

.............never mind...it's obvious, really.

No, on second thought...

The authority rests with the Church, not singularly with the Catholic Virginian nor any other individual member or clergy.  There is a hierarchy and a Magisterium of teaching.  Take in mind the "judaizers" in the days of the New Church.  They were teaching that gentiles had to convert fully to Judaism first to become christians. 

Catholic means "universal"  and all churches hail from the church..."universal" that Christ founded.  They are not pulling the New Sabbath out of a hat.  It's documented in the New Testament.

Disclaimer:  Any points I send in reflect the church I belong to, just as any other member in this CF.  There is no attempt to proselytize nor to accuse other denominations of "not having the truth."  If there is something in an argument I wish to inject, I'll do it to present that particular variable.  We can certainly discuss and present info and sides without attempting to discredit other faiths.


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## rafikichick92 (Sep 20, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> .............never mind...it's obvious, really.
> 
> No, on second thought...
> 
> ...


 
Do you mind my asking for specific verses?


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## Pooks (Sep 21, 2009)

When doing your best to observe the other 9 commandments, I don't understand why some reject the commandment of keeping the Sabbath which God specifically said to Remember

*Exodus 20:8-11:*

_Remember_ the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 

Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 

But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 21, 2009)

rafikichick92 said:


> Do you mind my asking for specific verses?




_Acts 20:7 "And upon the first  day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached  unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until  midnight."_

That refers to the Eucharist.  The first day of the week is Sunday, even in Judaism.  As it was explained to me,  it's important to remember that the Sabbath commandment contains 2 elements, primary and secondary, where the first concerns Jew and gentile setting up a time to worship G-d and the second concerning the ceremonial aspects which were abolished by Christ's death.  He's the L-rd of the Sabbath as the Messiah, no?  (Mk 2:28).This is why the early Church transferred it to Sunday, to reflect the L-rd's Resurrection.

*Colossians 2: 2-17
*

12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. 
 13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,[a] God made you[b] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[c] 
 16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

When Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for going above the spirit of the Sabbath (essentially, setting aside that day and communing spiritually with G-d), He was showing them that the Sabbath meets the need of man.  

*Lord of the Sabbath *

 23One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24The Pharisees said to him, "Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?"  25He answered, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions." 
 27Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

This from a forum citing scriptures on the authority of the Church as given by Christ:

_(Mt 16:18–19, 18:17–18, Lk 10:16) and of God’s guarantee that this teaching would never fall into error (Mt 28:19–20, Lk 22:32, Jn 16:13), there is an impressive amount of evidence from Scripture that Christ and the apostles changed their day of corporate worship from Saturday to Sunday._

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/?qid=1244


For the general discussion and not aimed at you Rafikichick,...


So, when I give an answer, I am only representing that which was taught to me on how, why and with what authority is it true.  I will reiterate that that's what I think we all should do - identify where we get our teachings and it'll lend to more respect between us all.  It will also help us to identify which sects believe xyz and which do not.  Learning about each other shows our mutual respect.  I cannot give a protestant answer as I am not qualified and will stick to my current traditions or my past ones in which I was involved as respectful.

In other words, I'm not saying Protestants are wrong for worshipping on Saturday.  But I do know why Sunday became that day of rest and worship and it was the first century Church which recognized it and practiced it according to scripture.  I also know that the Sabbath is for Jews.  Protestant christians and Catholics, Orthodox...are not Jews.  The Sabbath is still in effect for Jews.  In Exodus, it's speaking to Jews.  And according to what I was also taught in my Judaism days, the Sabbath must not be practiced by gentiles in the Jewish opinion...the Jewish Sabbath on Saturday.  Of course,  it's more involved than just worshipping on Saturday...it involves the bruchot or blessings and prayers, candle lighting etc.  

Disclaimer:  Again, this is what I was taught.  I am not directing ANYONE on what to do, neither am I attempting to slyly discredit anyone's faith on here.  People will continue to follow their own traditions.  When we ask a question, *we give the answers according to our traditions. * I do not proselytize and I do not accept that anyone would attempt to proselytize me...either publicly in this forum or privately in a PM.  I do not accept.  

(Not in any way directed at RafikiChick who asked  respectfully.)


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## blazingthru (Sep 21, 2009)

rafikichick92 said:


> @
> What I was trying to get at was that to me (again, to me) *it's not in God's character (what I know of it from reading the Bible) to condemn us if we did not know that the Sabbath was actually on Saturday and we did keep it, only we did it on Sunday because we didn't know any better,* as many people do not. Technically in this situation (which is a plausible one, I think), a person is not obeying God 100% correctly, but they genuinely don't know this. I don't think a loving, merciful God would be angry at a person for that.
> 
> Again, as a firm believer in Proverbs 30:5-6, I'm not trying to speak for God at all. Just stating things as I understand them at this point.


 
you are correct, God is not going to condemn those who did not know any better, But those who know but refuse to accept yes.  Those who hear but refuse to research yes, Those who make fun of it and dismiss it out of hand yes. Yes, I always get in trouble here. So please forgive me if this post gets locked. I am not trying to do that.  I believe that is why God says when you seek him with your full heart you will find him.  God knows our hearts and how we think and why we make the decisions we do.  When I heard about the sabbath in 2004, I could not accept it.  It was to hard and I didn't know where to turn to find the answers. I went to the pastors - several and they gave me scriptures but I knew in my heart that something wasn't right, but I didn't want to changed my life around so I believed them and walked away from the sabbath when I heard it again five years later, I had to sit down and research it out completely and I did and when I finished it was settled in my spirit that we are to honor the sabbath and when I did my entire life changed.


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## blazingthru (Sep 21, 2009)

Not Under the Law? 
Often we hear this argument in an effort to belittle the law of God: "Well, since we are not under the law but under grace, we do not need to keep the Ten Commandments any longer." Is this a valid point? The Bible certainly does say that we are not under the law, but does that imply that we are free from the obligation to obey it? The text is found in Romans 6:14, 15. "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid." 

How easily we could prevent confusion if we accepted exactly what the Bible says. Paul gives his own explanation of his statement. After stating that we are not under the law but under grace, he asks, "What then?" This simply means, "How are we to understand this?" Then notice his answer. In anticipation that some will construe his words to mean that you can break the law because you are under grace, he says, "Shall we sin (break the law) because we are not under the law but under grace? God forbid." In the strongest possible language Paul states that being under grace does not give a license to break the law. Yet this is exactly what millions believe today, and they totally ignore Paul's specific warning. 

If being under grace does not exempt us from keeping the law, then what does Paul mean by saying that Christians are not under the law? He gives that answer in Romans 3:19. "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." Here Paul equates being under the law with "being guilty before God." In other words, those who are under the law are guilty of breaking it and are under the condemnation of it. This is why Christians are not under it. They are not breaking it - not guilty and condemned by it. Therefore, they are not under it, but are under the power of grace instead. Later in his argument, Paul points out that the power of grace is greater than the power of sin. This is why he states so emphatically, "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." Grace overrules the authority of sin, giving power to obey God's law. This is the effective reason that we are not under the law's guilt and condemnation and also why Paul states that we will not continue to sin. 

Suppose a murderer has been sentenced to death in the electric chair. Waiting for the execution the man would truly be under the law in every sense of the word - under the guilt, under the condemnation, under the sentence of death, etc. Just before the execution date the governor reviews the condemned man's case and decides to pardon him. In the light of extenuating circumstances the governor exercises his prerogative and sends a full pardon to the prisoner. Now he is no longer under the law but under grace. The law no longer condemns him. He is considered totally justified as far as the charges of the law are concerned. He is free to walk out of the prison and not a policeman can lay hands upon him. But now that he is under grace and no longer under the law, can we say that he is free to break the law? Indeed not! In fact, that pardoned man will be doubly obligated to obey the law because he has found grace from the governor. In gratitude and love he will be very careful to honor the law of that state which granted him grace. Is that what the Bible says about pardoned sinners? "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Romans 3:31. Here is the most explicit answer to the entire problem. Paul asks if the law is nullified for us just because we have had faith in Christ's saving grace. His answer is that the law is established and reenforced in the life of a grace-saved Christian. 

The truth of this is so simple and obvious that it should require no repetition, but the devious reasoning of those who try to avoid obedience makes it necessary to press this point a bit further. Have you ever been stopped by a policeman for exceeding the speed limit? It is an embarrassing experience, especially if you know you are guilty. But suppose you really were hurrying to meet a valid emergency, and you pour out your convincing explanation to the policeman as he writes your ticket. Slowly he folds the ticket and tears it up. Then he says, "All right, I'm going to pardon you this time, but ..." Now what do you think he means by that word "but"? Surely he means, "but I don't want to ever catch you speeding again." Does this pardon (grace) open the way for you to disobey the law? On the contrary, it adds compelling urgency to your decision not to disobey the law again. Why, then, should any true Christian try to rationalize his way out of obeying the law of God? "If ye love me," Jesus said, "keep my commandments." John 14:15.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 21, 2009)

blazingthru said:


> The truth of this is so simple and obvious that it should require no repetition, but the* devious reasoning of those who try to avoid obedience* makes it necessary to press this point a bit further.,,,  "If ye love me," Jesus said, "keep my commandments." John 14:15.



You're not Jewish, right?.  Correct me if I'm wrong.    I believe that command precisely to the Jews:

Just _for the sake of the discussio_n since the Sabbath laws were cited, I thought this would be appropriate.  If you're going to have Judaism, have all of it. This is from that point of view:


The Sabbath Observing Gentile: Halakhic, Hashkafic and Liturgical Perspectives  	 	 Elchanan Adler

While the notion of commemorating the divine rest associatedwith primordial creation would seem to bear universalimport, it is surely no coincidence that the mitspa of Shabbat was assigned solely to Am Yisrael and not to Benei Noah.' Moreover, not only is a gentile absolved of the obligation to observe Shabbat, he is actually enjoined from doing so. Hence, the talmudic dictum: "Goy she-shavat hayav mita"—"a gentile who rests [on the Sabbath] incurs the death penalty" (Sanhedrin 58b). That the mitsva of Shabbat, in particular, should be perceived in uniquely Jewish terms is evident from its designation as an ot—a sign—between HaKadosh Barukh Hu and Benei Yisrael, as highlighted in Parashat Ki Tisa: "Ki ot hi beni u-venekhem ledoro-tekhem. . . . Beni u-ven Benei Yisrael ot hi le-olam" (Exodus 31:13, 17). 


Yet another disclaimer:  This is solely for the sake of discussion. I'm not going to pretend to have authority myself.  These are points I have questions about so, until all those points are explained and exhausted, I'll still have counterpoints in search of the answer.


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## divya (Sep 21, 2009)

*Reasons Why The Sabbath Was Not Just For the Jews*


1) *Adam and Eve were not Jewish. *"God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it" (Genesis 2:3) before sin entered. "Sanctified" means "to be set apart for holy use." T*he only ones in the Garden of Eden for whom the Sabbath was “set apart” were Adam and Eve, who weren’t Jewish.*

2) *"The Sabbath was made for man."* Mark 2:27. Jesus said this. It was "made" in the Garden of Eden before it was "written" down on Mount Sinai. The Sabbath was "made" for "man," not just Jews.

3) *The other nine commandments are not "just for Jews."* God wrote "Ten Commandments" on stone, not just nine (See Deut. 4:12, 13; Ex. 20). Does “Do not commit adultery,”“Do not murder,”“Do not steal,” and “Do not bear false witness” apply "only to Jews"?

4) *"The seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God."* Exodus 20:10. God calls the Sabbath, "my holy day." Isaiah 58:13. The Bible *never* calls it "the Sabbath of the Jews." It isn’t their Sabbath, but God's.

5) *The Sabbath commandment is for the "stranger" too. *The fourth commandment itself says the "stranger" is to rest on the Sabbath. Exodus 20:10.“Strangers” are non-Jews, or Gentiles. Thus the Sabbath applies to them too. Read also Isaiah 56:6.

6) *Isaiah said Gentiles should keep the Sabbath.* "Also the sons of the stranger ... every one that keeps the Sabbath ... for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people." Isaiah 56:6, 7. Thus the Sabbath is for Gentiles and “all people,” not just for Jews.

7) *"All" mankind will keep the Sabbath in the New Earth.* In "the new earth ... from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, says the Lord." Isaiah 66:22, 23. Here God says that “all flesh” will be keeping the Sabbath in “the new earth.” If this is the case – and it is – shouldn’t we start now?

8) *Gentiles kept the Sabbath in the Book of Acts. *"The Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath ... Paul and Barnabas ... persuaded them to continue in the grace of God."' Acts 13:42, 43. Here saved-by-grace Gentiles kept the Sabbath (see also verse 44).

9) *"The law" [of Ten Commandments] is for "all the world," not just for Jews.* Paul wrote these words. Read Romans 2:17-23; 3:19, 23.

10) *Luke was a Gentile who kept the Sabbath.* Luke was the only Gentile who wrote any New Testament books (he wrote The Gospel According to St. Luke and The Acts of the Apostles). Luke traveled with Paul and wrote, "On the Sabbath we went out of the city by a river side." Acts 16:13. It was the seventh-day Sabbath, the memorial of the creation (see Ex. 20:11). Both Luke and Paul knew it....


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## divya (Sep 21, 2009)

*Why we should observe the Seventh-Day Sabbath (Saturday)*

God rested on the seventh day after He created the earth. Genesis 2:1-3

God commanded with His own voice that the Sabbath be kept. Deuteronomy 4:12,13

God set aside the Sabbath and demanded that it be kept holy unto Him. Exodus 20:11

God blessed the Sabbath. Genesis 2:3

*God established the Sabbath day in the Garden of Eden. Genesis 2:1-3

God designated the Sabbath before the fall of man and it was observed after the fall of man.

The Sabbath was given to Adam, the head of the human race. Mark 2:27, Genesis 2:1-3*

Cain and Abel brought an offering to Jehovah on the Sabbath. Genesis 4:3
*
The Sabbath was a part of God’s law before Sinai. Exodus 16:4,23-29*
*
The Sabbath is not a Jewish institution; it was made 2,300 years before the tribe of Judah existed.*

*God placed the Sabbath in the heart of His moral law. Exodus 20:1-17 Why would He place it there if it was not like the other nine precepts, which all admit to be absolute? Who are we to ignore it?*

God forbade work upon the Sabbath, even in the most hurrying times. Exodus 34:21

God destroyed the Israelites in the wilderness because they profaned the Sabbath. Ezekiel 20:12,13

God wrote the commandment with His own finger. Exodus 31:18

God engraved it in the enduring stone, indicating its imperishable nature. Deuteronomy 5:22

The Sabbath was sacredly preserved in the ark in the holy of holies. Deuteronomy 10:1-5

The Sabbath is the sign of the true God, by which we are to know Him from false gods. Ezekiel 20:20

Strangers and foreigners together with the Jews observed the Sabbath. Exodus 20:10

*The Bible never calls it the Jewish Sabbath, but always “the Sabbath of the Lord thy God.”*

Reference is made to the Sabbath through out the patriarchal age. Genesis 2:1-3; 8:10,12; 29:27,28

God promised that Jerusalem should stand forever if the Jews kept the Sabbath. Jeremiah 17:24, 25

God sent the Israelites into Babylonian captivity for breaking the Sabbath. Nehemiah 13:18

God destroyed Jerusalem for its Sabbath violation. Jeremiah 17:27

God promises to bless all who keep the Sabbath. Isaiah 56:2

God says that those who observe the Sabbath are pleasing to Him. Isaiah 56:5

God promises that who ever keeps the Sabbath will eat with the heritage of Jacob. Isaiah 56:6

*God pronounced a special blessing on all Gentiles who keep the Sabbath. Isaiah 56:6,7*

*Isaiah prophesied that Gentiles would join themselves to the Sabbath. Isaiah 56:6*

*God promises to make Gentiles who observe the Sabbath, joyful in His house of prayer. Isaiah 56:7

God promises that he will gather Gentiles who observe the Sabbath, to His holy mountain in Israel. Isaiah 56:7*

God requires us to call the Sabbath “honorable.” Isaiah 58:13 Beware, you who take delight in calling it “a yoke of bondage.”

God has never given any man permission to work upon the Sabbath.

God has ever removed His blessing or sanctification from the Sabbath?

All the holy prophets kept the Sabbath.
*
Jesus says the Sabbath was made for man; jew and GENTILE. Mark 2:27*

Jesus said that He was Lord of the Sabbath. Mark 2:28

Jesus indicated that the Sabbath will be observed by believers during the end times. Matthew 24:20

Jesus kept the Sabbath His entire life. Luke 4:16; John 15:10 Will we not be safe in following the Father and the Son?

Jesus severely condemned the Pharisees as hypocrites for pretending to love God, while at the same time they made void the commandments of God by their traditions.

Jesus is the husband of the Sabbath Mark 2:28 that is, to love and protect it, as the husband is the lord of the wife, to love and cherish her. 1 Peter 3:6

Jesus vindicated the Sabbath as a merciful institution designed for man’s good. Mark 2:23-28

Jesus carefully taught how the Sabbath should be observed. Matthew 12:1-13

Jesus taught His disciples that they should do nothing upon the Sabbath day but what was “lawful.” Matthew 12:12

*Jesus expressly declared that He had not come to destroy the law, including the Sabbath. Matthew 5:17*

Jesus taught on the Sabbath. Mark 1:21

Jesus said whosoever breaks the commandment of the Sabbath, and teaches others to do the same would be called “least” in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall observe it and teach others to do the same, shall be called “great” in the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5:19

Jesus rested in the grave on the Sabbath. John 20:1

The pious women who followed Jesus carefully kept the Sabbath after His death indicating that he had not instructed them to the contrary. Luke 23:5

Thirty years after Christ's resurrection, the Holy Spirit expressly calls it “the Sabbath day.” Acts 13:14

Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, called it the “Sabbath day” in A.D. 45. Acts 13:27

Luke, the inspired Christian historian, writing as late as A.D. 62, calls it the “Sabbath day.” Acts 13:44

The Gentile converts called it “the Sabbath.” Acts 13:42

In the great Christian council, A.D. 49, in the presence of the apostles and thousands of disciples, James calls it the “Sabbath day.” Acts 15:21

Prayer meetings were held on the Sabbath. Acts 16:13

People worshipped on the Sabbath. Psalm 92:1

Paul read the Scriptures in public meetings on the Sabbath. Acts 17:2, 3

Paul preached on the Sabbath. Acts 17:2, 3

There was never any dispute between the Christians and the Jews about the Sabbath day. This is proof that Christians observed the same Sabbath day that the Jews did.

In all of their accusations against Paul, they never charged him with violating the Sabbath.

Paul himself expressly declared that he had kept the law. Acts 25:8 How could this be true if he had not kept the Sabbath?

The seventh-day Sabbath is mentioned in the Scriptures 126 times in the Old Testament, and 62 times in the New Testament.

Not a word is said anywhere in the New Testament that the Sabbath’s would be abolished, done away with or changed.

No Christian of the New Testament, either before or after the resurrection, ever did ordinary work upon the seventh day.

After the holy Sabbath has been trodden down “many generations,” it is to be restored in the last days: Isaiah 58:12-13

The Sabbath is observed eternally in the New Earth. For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. Isaiah 66:22-23


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 21, 2009)

divya said:


> 5) *The Sabbath commandment is for the "stranger" too. *The fourth commandment itself says the "stranger" is to rest on the Sabbath. Exodus 20:10.“Strangers” are non-Jews, or Gentiles. Thus the Sabbath applies to them too. Read also Isaiah 56:6.
> 
> 6) *Isaiah said Gentiles should keep the Sabbath.* "Also the sons of the stranger ... every one that keeps the Sabbath ... for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people." Isaiah 56:6, 7. Thus the Sabbath is for Gentiles and “all people,” not just for Jews.



Was this meant for those gentiles living amongst Jews?  So that all will come under the G-d of Israel and His decrees in the land of Israel?  The whole house?  Does this apply to people who are not Jewish today when the scriptures were written to and about the Jews?  Gentiles were grafted into the vine with Christ.  My question is this, isn't that judaizing?  Also, do 7th Day Adventists circumcize? Is it a form of Messianic "Judaism"?  My father is one but he wishes to convert fully to orthodox Judaism.



divya said:


> God promised that Jerusalem should stand forever if the Jews kept the Sabbath. Jeremiah 17:24, 25



If the Jews kept the Sabbath...which they are doing as commanded.  I'm only asking.  Divya, is this according to 7th Day Adventist?


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## Sharpened (Sep 21, 2009)

When did Jesus break bread with His Disciples? On Wednesday evening (which would actually be Thursday) for Passover. This is the reasoning for Wednesday services. Let's not confuse the breaking of the bread with the Sabbath. You can break bread any day of the week.

This is a quote from the link:


> Put this question to your Seventh-Day Adventist friends: Jesus, being God, knew whether or not his Church would apostatize by changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. If Adventists are correct that Christians are still obliged to keep Saturday as their day of corporate worship, isn’t it strange that Jesus underscored exactly the opposite by appearing to his disciples after his Resurrection nearly exclusively on _Sunday?_


I don't belong to any religion, but I had answered this: Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, still kept the Sabbath; He couldn't rise on Saturday. Also, Jesus' anger at the Pharisees dealt with all of the extra, man-made requirements that distracted the Hebrews from growing closer to His Father and their hypocrisy towards their own doctrine.

I read Colossians 2. Paul was correcting the trouble a group who were mixing Hebrew and Gentile (secular) beliefs together had caused. Maybe the question we should ask is if the Ten Commandments still hold true.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 21, 2009)

Nymphe said:


> When did Jesus break bread with His Disciples? On Wednesday evening (which would actually be Thursday) for Passover. This is the reasoning for Wednesday services. Let's not confuse the breaking of the bread with the Sabbath. You can break bread any day of the week.
> 
> This is a quote from the link:
> 
> ...



You should put the source of the quote as being of the Catholic Forum.  It was an answer given to someone being asked by a 7th Day Adventist.  The Shabbat as maintained by the Jews is distinct.  The Decalogue was given to Moses for the Hebrews and all the gentiles who left with them and would live under them.  As G-d's purpose and intent was to bring salvation to all mankind through the Messiah, all should definitely follow the 10 Commandments.  Good and bad are written on all of men's hearts.  However, that Shabbat is distinct.  I don' t think it is specifically for gentiles at all.  I've already cited scriptures and my reasons for believing so.  There is the Sabbath...but for Jews...it's quite distinct as there are certain ritual that must be performed.  Is that what christians are doing?  BTW, not all churches have Wednesday services.


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## Sharpened (Sep 21, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> You should put the source of the quote as being of the Catholic Forum.  It was an answer given to someone being asked by a 7th Day Adventist.  The Shabbat as maintained by the Jews is distinct.  The Decalogue was given to Moses for the Hebrews and all the gentiles who left with them and would live under them.  As G-d's purpose and intent was to bring salvation to all mankind through the Messiah, all should definitely follow the 10 Commandments.  Good and bad are written on all of men's hearts.  However, that Shabbat is distinct.  I don' t think it is specifically for gentiles at all.  I've already cited scriptures and my reasons for believing so.  There is the Sabbath...but for Jews...it's quite distinct as there are certain ritual that must be performed.  Is that what christians are doing?  BTW, not all churches have Wednesday services.



Either the Fourth Commandment applies, or none of it does.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 21, 2009)

Nymphe said:


> Either the Fourth Commandment applies, or none of it does.




I don't think you're getting it.  If you don't utter the prayers and welcome in the Sabbath with candle lighting, you're not keeping "that" Shabbat at all.  It's a distinct ceremony.  So, how did gentiles keep the sabbath in times before the revelation to Moses?


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## divya (Sep 21, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Was this meant for those gentiles living amongst Jews?  So that all will come under the G-d of Israel and His decrees in the land of Israel?  The whole house? * Does this apply to people who are not Jewish today when the scriptures were written to and about the Jews?*  Gentiles were grafted into the vine with Christ.  My question is this, isn't that judaizing?  Also, do 7th Day Adventists circumcize? Is it a form of Messianic "Judaism"?  My father is one but he wishes to convert fully to orthodox Judaism.
> 
> If the Jews kept the Sabbath...which they are doing as commanded.  I'm only asking.  Divya, is this according to 7th Day Adventist?



This is according to the Scriptures, which is why all references are provided. The Scriptures are not only to the Jews but to all mankind. So it applies not only to those Gentiles living amongst the Jews in the past, but to all as the total message of the Scriptures reveal. 

Also, Seventh-Day Adventist are one of hundreds of Sabbath-keeping Christians today. This understanding is shared by numerous groups.


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## Sharpened (Sep 21, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> I don't think you're getting it.  If you don't utter the prayers and welcome in the Sabbath with candle lighting, you're not keeping "that" Shabbat at all.  It's a distinct ceremony.  So, how did gentiles keep the sabbath in times before the revelation to Moses?


What does the OT say about how to keep the Sabbath?


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 21, 2009)

divya said:


> This is according to the Scriptures, which is why all references are provided. The Scriptures are not only to the Jews but to all mankind. So it applies not only to those Gentiles living amongst the Jews in the past, but to all as the total message of the Scriptures reveal.
> 
> Also, Seventh-Day Adventist are one of hundreds of Sabbath-keeping Christians today. This understanding is shared by numerous groups.



I'm not being understood.  My family kept Shabbat...but the Jewish shabbat.  This is what I'm asking about.  Are you saying rest and worhip on Saturday or Sunday (at least one day a week, but most specifically on Saturday since this was the precedent) or the specific worship that is mandated for Jews on Saturday?  It's more than "going to church."  It is incredibly specific.  

Do 7th Day Adventists do the candle lighting by the woman/girls, kiddush, netilat yadaim (washing hands), ha motzi , give tzedakah or alms before Shabbat starts...and at services do they pray the 3 prayers shacharit, mincha, ma'ariv and Musaf...amidah?  That's what I'm saying.  Do you rip toilet paper and break the Sabbath?  Do you cook on the Sabbath, smoke?  Any strike of fire, turning on a lightbulb?  Do you carry money on the Sabbath?  Do you have an eruv constructed in your neighbor giving a dispensation to carry certain items on the Sabbath without transgressing within that distance of the synagogue?  Do you drive on the sabbath?  Ignition= fire.  Do you have sex on the sabbath as a way of bringing blessing? 

I remember someone saying that sex was off-limits before church.  Is the gentile Sabbath specifically these steps mentioned above and more or is it taking time to worship G-d in the gentile way on Saturday that should be maintained? I never thougyht of it this way....what is this Sabbath????


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## divya (Sep 21, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> I'm not being understood.  My family kept Shabbat...but the Jewish shabbat.  This is what I'm asking about.  Are you saying rest and worhip on Saturday or Sunday (at least one day a week, but most specifically on Saturday since this was the precedent) or the specific worship that is mandated for Jews on Saturday?  It's more than "going to church."  It is incredibly specific.
> 
> Do 7th Day Adventists do the candle lighting by the woman/girls, kiddush, netilat yadaim (washing hands), ha motzi , give tzedakah or alms before Shabbat starts...and at services do they pray the 3 prayers shacharit, mincha, ma'ariv and Musaf...amidah?  That's what I'm saying.  Is the Sabbath specifically these or is it taking time to worship G-d in the gentile way on Saturday that should be maintained?



We - SDAs and numerous Sabbath-keeping faiths within Christianity - observe the Sabbath _according to the direction given in the Scriptures_. Of course, there is likely to be some variation, but there are great similarities when it comes to weekly Sabbath-keeping among us. The Sabbath is to be *kept holy*. Therefore, those of us who keep that Sabbath believe that it is not just about going to church, and it is not simply about worship.

Here is nice synopsis given online which which numerous Sabbath keeping Christians would largely agree/glean principles from, with the Scriptural basis...



> (1) The Sabbath is a day to cease our creating, working with the creation, and appreciate what God has done in the world and is doing in us, Genesis 2.
> 
> (2) The Sabbath is a day to realize that man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.
> 
> ...



http://www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/holy-days/how-to-keep-the-sabbath-holy.html


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## divya (Sep 21, 2009)

The same article gives some nice guidelines for those striving to keep the Sabbath holy...

*
Three Important Facets of Sabbath-Keeping*

How can we apply the principles of the Sabbath? God gave the Sabbath to man as a day of rest and recuperation from a vigorous, work-filled week. We need to take advantage of the liberty of the Sabbath. Enjoy it. Rest up and "recharge your batteries"! Plan to sleep in a little and not feel guilty about it. Don't be a sluggard, but get a little extra special rest. This will relieve you of the stress of daily life.

*Isaiah 58:13-14* gives three important parts to keeping the Sabbath holy as you should. Let's look at these three facets.

*(1)* Don't do your own ways. This means your employment, enterprises, finances, the serious business of making a livelihood and caring for your physical responsibilities. Devote the Sabbath to God's business.

*(2)* Don't find your own pleasure. As Bill McDowell wrote, this means "Your desire, delight, that which you take extra pleasure in doing -- hunting, fishing, golfing, swimming, cards, movies, boating -- those things which take up the majority of your 'leisure' time. This would also include the many time-consuming hobbies such as the 'ham' radio operator, woodworking, shop, stamp collecting, etc . . . . Whatever your pleasure, or leisure-time activity is, you should not engage in it on the Sabbath" ( The Good News, March 1968, article "Keep God's Sabbath Holy" p. 17). Instead, engage in God's pleasure on the Sabbath, His creation (Revelation 4:11).

*(3)* Don't speak your own words. Talk about God's way of life and His wonderful creation. Serve God with your mind. "Those who can't or don't control their minds call the Sabbath bondage, because they can't wait until sunset to be about their ways and pleasures which they have been thinking about all day anyway!" ( Ibid.). Once you get your mind and thoughts on God's ways on the Sabbath, you will find out what a real delight and joy the Sabbath really is! "Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD," Isaiah 58:14. You do this by extra Bible study, prayer and meditation. The Sabbath is the one time of the week that nothing should hinder you from becoming completely absorbed in God and His word, the Bible.

*Preparation For the Sabbath*

The sixth day of the week, which we call Friday, is the preparation for the Sabbath, Exodus 16:23. It is the time to get everything ready for the Sabbath so you won't even be tempted to do it on the Sabbath.

As the saying goes, "the only man who ever had all his work done by Friday was Robinson Crusoe." In this rush, rush world you have to address priorities. There will be things undone. Part of keeping the Sabbath is to get the major things done before the Sabbath, and on the Sabbath to forget about the minor things. Everything which can be done before the Sabbath should be done, such as cooking a roast, baking a cake or pie, cleaning house, getting chores done, etc. Food which will keep ahead of time should be prepared on Friday.

A good idea for Sabbath-keepers is to keep a checklist, so you won't forget something major that has to be done. The sixth day of the week is not the only day to prepare for the Sabbath. It is not a day to catch up on what you should have been doing all week. Get the essentials done so that you can greet the Sabbath with delight, and completely put chores and work behind you. 

*Sabbath Legalism?*

People naturally have many questions about Sabbath-keeping. Bill McDowell wrote, "The main reason God has never 'listed' in the Bible any 'do's and don'ts' for the Sabbath is that He wants us, as individuals, to learn to think, be personally responsible and use the PRINCIPLES He has given us. It is too easy to lose sight of the goal when you have a myriad of legalistic lines drawn up for you. But once you know and can apply the principles, you will be able to almost automatically answer your own questions." ( Ibid., p. 18).

This article may expose us to charges of "legalism." We are not attempting to be modern Pharisees, spelling out detailed laws and ignoring the big spiritual principles. In Webster's Unabridged Dictionary, "legalism" is defined as: "strict conformity to a code of deeds and observances as a means of justification...an adherence to the letter as distinguished from the spirit of the law, an emphasis on the importance of formulated rules (as for governing conduct)."

*Let us make it plain that law keeping, even Sabbath-keeping, does not "justify" you, or make your past evil actions right with the Almighty. We are freely justified by grace, unmerited pardon, for our past sins. Being justified, we are commanded by the Eternal to obey Him in Spirit and in Truth. You cannot "keep" the Sabbath spiritually without also keeping it physically. To fail to answer specific questions about the Sabbath places us on the other side, the liberal side which tells the lie that all you have to do is keep the Sabbath in a right attitude and forget about the details. Let us be balanced.*


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 21, 2009)

[/quote] A GENTILE explanation for me won't suffice.   [/quote]


LOLOL!  I have to laugh about my error.  I initially wrote "gentle."  OKay, here's the short story...I was in the pharmacy trying to explain about a laxative..."gentle something laxative" which was the generic of Dulcolax.  I needed to find the name to fill an RX...and I kept typing in "gentile."  I thinking in French, "gentile" or "doux" which isn't gentile at all, but soft.  Sigh....so I did it again....gentle substituted for "gentile."  Except, those in the pharmacy thought I was being racist lolol!  sigh


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## JinaRicci (Sep 21, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> I'm not being understood. My family kept Shabbat...but the Jewish shabbat. This is what I'm asking about. Are you saying rest and worhip on Saturday or Sunday (at least one day a week, but most specifically on Saturday since this was the precedent) or the specific worship that is mandated for Jews on Saturday? It's more than "going to church." It is incredibly specific.
> 
> Do 7th Day Adventists do the candle lighting by the woman/girls, kiddush, netilat yadaim (washing hands), ha motzi , give tzedakah or alms before Shabbat starts...and at services do they pray the 3 prayers shacharit, mincha, ma'ariv and Musaf...amidah? That's what I'm saying. Do you rip toilet paper and break the Sabbath? Do you cook on the Sabbath, smoke? Any strike of fire, turning on a lightbulb? Do you carry money on the Sabbath? Do you have an eruv constructed in your neighbor giving a dispensation to carry certain items on the Sabbath without transgressing within that distance of the synagogue? Do you drive on the sabbath? Ignition= fire. Do you have sex on the sabbath as a way of bringing blessing?
> 
> I remember someone saying that sex was off-limits before church. Is the gentile Sabbath specifically these steps mentioned above and more or is it taking time to worship G-d in the gentile way on Saturday that should be maintained? I never thougyht of it this way....what is this Sabbath????


 
I think I understand what you're saying. 

There were a lot of rules- as far back as Jesus' time that were man-made traditions as to how the Sabbath should be kept. Some of the Priests & Pharisees had turned the Sabbath into a burden of "don'ts" when it should be a delight. 

That's why Jesus seemed like a heretic to them... who was he to heal the sick on the Sabbath?! 
(Matthew 12: 1-14) 

And his response to them was: 

*Matt 12: 10-12*

*Then He said to them, “What man is there among you who has one sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not lay hold of it and lift it out? Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”* 

Those traditions you mentioned that are maintained by the Jews are understandably important to them as a people but not for keeping the Sabbath as God describes in the Bible. While Jews may maintain the Sabbath in some of their unique ways, it is not for them only- it is for all of us.

When Jesus referenced the sheep falling into the pit, he was appealing to their common sense as well- no one would leave their sheep stranded even on the Sabbath. In the same way, there are some things that may not be expressly stated in the Bible- like "is it right to drive?" but common sense tells us that is necessary. At the same time, we can prepare our cars ahead of time- getting fuel and any servicing needed before the Sabbath. 

Divya posted lots of good info on what to do on the Sabbath based on the Word. I like to focus on the "dos" because I like not having the "don'ts" (working, studying...) to worry about for those 24hrs. 

I hope that helps to explain a bit more and hope I haven't offended you or your faith (or anyone else) in any of my posts.


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## divya (Sep 21, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Thanks Divya.  I hope people don't take it too personally, my matter-of-fact, in-your-faceness because this is exactly how I approached catholicism...and judaism.  If it cannot be proven according to scriptures and tradition, I won't get anything out of it.  I'll pick at a subject for personal reasons until I feel comfortable with it for my own needs.  That's not to say I'm converting out or anything, but I do have my own questions about the Jewish commandments or mitzvot to keep that particular Shabbat for familial reasons.



No problem, GV. I hope that my answers were completely enough for you b/c at first, I don't think I completely understood. Feel free to ask other questions.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 21, 2009)

JinaRicci said:


> I think I understand what you're saying.
> 
> There were a lot of rules- as far back as Jesus' time that were man-made traditions as to how the Sabbath should be kept. Some of the Priests & Pharisees had turned the Sabbath into a burden of "don'ts" when it should be a delight.
> 
> ...




Oh noooo, yes it is...it's the very life and soul of judaism today!  Jews go by tradition...(not all just written, but both oral and writ handed down throughout the ages)...that's why I often link the catholic traditions as unbroken.  Did you see my mention of tearing toilet paper???  The more ultra-orthodox you become, the more you'll see all the fence laws erected to keep one from getting too close to transgressing the actual law itself.  This is where we can become so very legalistic, we lose sight of the spirit of Shabbat if we're not careful.  Y'all see where I'm coming from now?  I myself am a descent of Jews.  He said it was forever....but I'm not talking about any gentile observation of it...strictly Jewish because of the rituals.  SDA are the closest.


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## aribell (Sep 21, 2009)

momi said:


> Romans 14:5
> 
> *5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.*
> 
> 6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.


 


Nymphe said:


> *Either the Fourth Commandment applies, or none of it does*.


 
Jesus _is _our Sabbath day rest.  To "observe" the Sabbath is to enter into His rest, to enter into life and fellowship with Him, which is why, I believe, Paul said what he did about one man esteeming one day above the rest and another esteeming every day alike.

I don't pretend that everyone will agree with that, but I have to disagree with the idea that the argument has to be about whether you follow the 4th Commandment or don't follow the 4th Commandment.  I, along with many other believers in the Chrisitan tradition, believe that Christ's life, death, and resurrection changed what it means to observe the Sabbath.

But this is true without dispute: the Sabbath was never truly about working or not working, how many miles you walked or didn't walk, cooking beforehand or not.  It was always meant to be a reflection of rest in Christ from the strivings of this world.  The religious leaders of his time didn't think Jesus was keeping the Sabbath, and yet He was Lord of it, embodied it all the same, _lived_ it thoroughly.  

While we can say that Jesus was only showing the Pharisees that they had taken things to the extreme and were being only legalistic, Jesus did some quite unnecessary things on the Sabbath, besides addressing the most pressing need of the moment.  He and his disciples were rebuked for picking grapes on the Sabbath, meaning that they had not prepared meals beforehand, were not resting from work.  No indication was given that it was an emergency or a special situation of some kind.  They knew what it meant to observe the Sabbath and did not act in accordance with that.  

I believe that Jesus was attempting to continuously point people away from the idea that keeping the Sabbath is something that you do with your outward actions rather than being something you do in heart, mind, and spirit.  You can have both, but I don't think Jesus was particularly concerned about the former.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 21, 2009)

Nymphe said:


> What does the OT say about how to keep the Sabbath?




That's another thing.  There are the scriptures....that are supported by tradition.  Jews are not "sola scriptura."  There's the Talmud...halacha on determining how to celebrate.  It's not 1,2,3 and that's that.  It's actually quite involved....which is why I was asking how did gentiles observe before the law was given to Moses?


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## blazingthru (Sep 22, 2009)

blazingthru said:


> Also as you read in deeper, you will discover that this was actually saturday night. Paul was reading into the late hour Saturday night!. God set the time.  the time is from sun set  to sunset. So for us Sabbath believer and some Jews still.  The day ends at sun down. When the sunsets the new day begins. So right now sun sets around 7 at 7:01 the new day has begun.
> *7And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. *
> * 8And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together*
> 
> ...


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## yahswill76 (Sep 22, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> You're not Jewish, right?. Correct me if I'm wrong.  I believe that command precisely to the Jews:
> 
> Just _for the sake of the discussio_n since the Sabbath laws were cited, I thought this would be appropriate. If you're going to have Judaism, have all of it. This is from that point of view:
> 
> ...


 
Is this from Strong's or another source.  I'm interested, please.


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## yahswill76 (Sep 22, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> Jesus _is _our Sabbath day rest. To "observe" the Sabbath is to enter into His rest, to enter into life and fellowship with Him, which is why, I believe, Paul said what he did about one man esteeming one day above the rest and another esteeming every day alike.
> 
> I don't pretend that everyone will agree with that, but I have to disagree with the idea that the argument has to be about whether you follow the 4th Commandment or don't follow the 4th Commandment. I, along with many other believers in the Chrisitan tradition, believe that Christ's life, death, and resurrection changed what it means to observe the Sabbath.
> 
> ...


 
Yashua (Jesus's real name b/c the letter J was not even in existence at he time) was not the change of YAH's laws.  YAWEH (GOD'S true name) wrote a law (commandment) and as we know a law never changes unless another law is written to over ride the previous law.  YAH is never changing.  He is same today, tomorrow, and forever.  His law never changed it, man did.  People don't be naive to believe the teachings of this modern day type of church in existence.  Today's church is not teaching about the truth.  The Sabbath day is the same as it was written and never changed.  Why is it that is the ONLY commandment people will argue and it is the ONLY commandment that starts with REMEMBER> Apparently YAH knew that we would be lost and gave us some guidelines to live by along the Yashua's example and we can follow all but 1. Why don't you ask yourself how is Satan supposed to deceive the whole world. Well, which is it?  Is the name changes of savior and master?  Is it the day we should observe that we were told to remember? There are so many things that we were made to believe that are not so.  That is why the bible is our bread and the food we should live by.  If you read it you can not be mislead.  That is why we were warned about false prophets (most pastors, preachers, etc...who are teaching in today's churches)  We should inform ourselves by reading the WORD.  Challenge yourself.  Check up on it.


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## aribell (Sep 22, 2009)

kismet76 said:


> Yashua (Jesus's real name b/c the letter J was not even in existence at he time) was not the change of YAH's laws. YAWEH (GOD'S true name) wrote a law (commandment) and as we know a law never changes unless another law is written to over ride the previous law. YAH is never changing. He is same today, tomorrow, and forever. His law never changed it, man did. People don't be naive to believe the teachings of this modern day type of church in existence. Today's church is not teaching about the truth. The Sabbath day is the same as it was written and never changed. Why is it that is the ONLY commandment people will argue and it is the ONLY commandment that starts with REMEMBER> Apparently YAH knew that we would be lost and gave us some guidelines to live by along the Yashua's example and we can follow all but 1. Why don't you ask yourself how is Satan supposed to deceive the whole world. Well, which is it? Is the name changes of savior and master? Is it the day we should observe that we were told to remember? There are so many things that we were made to believe that are not so. That is why the bible is our bread and the food we should live by. If you read it you can not be mislead. That is why we were warned about false prophets (most pastors, preachers, etc...who are teaching in today's churches) We should inform ourselves by reading the WORD. Challenge yourself. Check up on it.


 
Hi.  The strong commitment to God's word is appreciated, but I think there are some questionable ideas in your post.  The first is that anyone who disagrees with a certain interpretation (or your interpretation) must not be really reading their Bible and taking it seriously.  This lacks humility in that we have to all recognize that not one of us has a corner on biblical interpretation.  As the verse goes, let _God_ be true and every man a liar.  Indeed, God's word says what it says and nothing else, but that doesn't equate to my interpretation (or my church's interpretation) being automatically correct.  We're all reading the Bible here, all taking it seriously.

Secondly, "Jesus" is a transliteration of His name in another language.  It's not a name change.

And regarding the Sabbath, it is very much true that the way God's people were called to live out the laws transformed in certain aspects.  For instance, the Jewish Christians no longer perform atoning sacrifices.  There are no longer days of purity.  Why?  Because Jesus fulfilled all of these things.  Those particular practices were a shadow of Christ, and once Christ came, we were given the fulfillment of them rather than the shadow of them.  This is straight out of the book of Hebrews.  It is not correct to speak of the "modern church" being the one to erroneously teach that traditional Sabbath day observance is no longer in effect, given that the Christian church has taught and observed the Sabbath differently for centuries now.  

And besides, this is exactly the type of thing that Paul told the church not to get into disputes over.  We are told how to have eternal life, by having faith in Christ.  Satan's deception in the world has little to do with whether we call Christ Jesus or Yeshua, whether we worship on Saturday or Sunday (in a _man-made calendar_ no less) and everything to do with keeping individuals wrapped up in rebellion and the lusts of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life.  Let's not get distracted.


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## msa (Sep 22, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> And besides, this is exactly the type of thing that Paul told the church not to get into disputes over.  We are told how to have eternal life, by having faith in Christ.  Satan's deception in the world has little to do with whether we call Christ Jesus or Yeshua, whether we worship on Saturday or Sunday (in a _man-made calendar_ no less) and everything to do with keeping individuals wrapped up in rebellion and the lusts of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life.  Let's not get distracted.




I was trying to think of a way to put into words how I feel, but you did it for me.

No matter what the situation, we can all read the same bible and come up with varying interpretations about different points of doctrine.


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## blazingthru (Sep 22, 2009)

What I have discovered is no matter how many scriptures are put out on here and no matter what proof is shown. There are those who will not bend, will not sit down and discover the truth for themselves, its not my truth or my views. its fact. The sabbath (saturday the seventh day) is the true day that we are to keep holy. it identifies our God. we obey it because we prove that he is the one true God our creator and in him we place our lives and our trust.  I am so curious as to why its so hard for many to obey it. What is it about it. It certainly is not a burden.  But Satan desires us to worship him and he changed the day he enforces the day and will make it the Law. Very soon and when that day comes it will be terrible on this earth and we know that day is coming because God warned us of it.  People are funny - you know that.  They hear of terror coming but they don't believe until its on them and its to late for them.  No one wants to listen and the terror will come just as the bible says it will and many will be lost because they refuse to believe or even study out for themselves the real truth.  What truth they have will be gone.  God will remove it.  All of it.  Those who refuse to believe, will be decieved by Satan.  this bothered me and so I was determine to take what I heard and search the scriptures and see does it align with other passages and I wont' say I am good at doing all that but we have the internet and we have other people online who have done it who can provide the answers with Scriptures that harmonizes.  I also pray about it and keep searching for the truth not for what I believe is the truth but what is the actual truth and accept it. 

 8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 *but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God*. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 *For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them*, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore *the LORD blessed the Sabbath day **and made it holy. *


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## Crown (Sep 22, 2009)

> How incredible the bible is sometimes you have to read and read and reread the same passage to get the true meaning.


So true and for *all* of us!


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 22, 2009)

blazingthru said:


> blazingthru said:
> 
> 
> > Also as you read in deeper, you will discover that this was actually saturday night. Paul was reading into the late hour Saturday night!. God set the time.  the time is from sun set  to sunset. So for us Sabbath believer and some Jews still.  The day ends at sun down. When the sunsets the new day begins. So right now sun sets around 7 at 7:01 the new day has begun.
> ...


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## msa (Sep 22, 2009)

blazingthru said:


> What I have discovered is no matter how many scriptures are put out on here and no matter what proof is shown. *There are those who will not bend, will not sit down and discover the truth for themselves, *its not my truth or my views. *its fact.*




There are many people, including myself, who have studied this over and over again and still come to a different conclusion (based on the scriptures and the "proof") than you have.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 22, 2009)

kismet76 said:


> Is this from Strong's or another source.  I'm interested, please.




It's not christian affiliated at all.  You'd have to pay for the full article so probably research other talmudic sources you can find online....but....studying Talmud requires a learned rabbi.  You'd probably be best to ask your local Chabad on where to find answers:

http://www.traditiononline.org/news/article.cfm?id=104943

http://halakhah.com/ (but you have to know what and where to search)
http://www.beverlyhillschabad.com/gemara.htm


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## Ije4eva (Sep 22, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> Jesus _is _our Sabbath day rest. To "observe" the Sabbath is to enter into His rest, to enter into life and fellowship with Him, which is why, I believe, Paul said what he did about one man esteeming one day above the rest and another esteeming every day alike.
> 
> I don't pretend that everyone will agree with that, but I have to disagree with the idea that the argument has to be about whether you follow the 4th Commandment or don't follow the 4th Commandment. I, along with many other believers in the Chrisitan tradition, believe that Christ's life, death, and resurrection changed what it means to observe the Sabbath.
> 
> ...


 

I wish I could thank you 5 million times for this response!!!! You put it much better than I could have, but this is exactly what was on my heart when reading this thread. Like you said, many will not agree, but all the same thanks for this! I am a firm believer that when you put your faith in Christ, the ENTIRE law is written in your heart and as a new creature you start to live it out.  God continues to show me what that means for me in my daily life, but I include this 4th commandment in there are well. 

Passage Hebrews 4:3-12:

   3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 

   4For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 

   5And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 

   6Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 

   7Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 

   8For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 

   9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 

   10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 

   11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 22, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> And regarding the Sabbath, it is very much true that the way God's people were called to live out the laws transformed in certain aspects.  For instance, the Jewish Christians no longer perform atoning sacrifices.  There are no longer days of purity.  Why?  Because Jesus fulfilled all of these things.  Those particular practices were a shadow of Christ, and once Christ came, we were given the fulfillment of them rather than the shadow of them.  This is straight out of the book of Hebrews.  It is not correct to speak of the "modern church" being the one to erroneously teach that traditional Sabbath day observance is no longer in effect, given that the Christian church has taught and observed the Sabbath differently for centuries now.



I so agree with you.  It's amazing to me how one does not see the Messiah of Israel in these passages in scripture concerning the law...and what He said about making the Sabbath for man and not the man for Sabbath.  He is the L-rd...the Creator.  He's the designer, right?  What about Jesus' rebuke?

Then there is this disconnect that people are thinking they have superceded the Jews...they have not.  Christians are not Jews.  They are not obligated to honor that particular Shabbat.  What they are obligated to do is come together in eucharistic adoration (thanksgiving) for the risen Christ.  Christ is the fulfillment for Pete's sake.  All was leading up to Him.  We are losing the spirit of the law for the law, fence laws, and legalism themselves.  The heart???  Worshipping in truth and spirit...which is what christians do, either on Saturday or Sunday.  And for Jews, it's the physical observation as well as the spiritual meanings...but within that First Covenant that has not been abrogated for them.  

If you are not a Jew (and a christian is not a spiritual Jew in replacement theology, kicking them out...that is antisemitic), you are not obligated to observe the Jewish Sabbath.  Of course, you are spiritually grafted onto the vine of salvation.  But you are NOT physical Israel.  If you do observe Shabbat, kewl, that's up to you.  But to tell other christians who are in the New Covenant that they must observe the Jewish sabbath is nothing more than judaizing...and it was seriously dealt with in the NT.  Do what you wish...but even try and suggest that other christians who do not observe are against G-d's word, please....  Opinions are one thing...but heresies are another.  Now I know why Shimmie sometimes gets so bent out of shape in defending the faith from error.


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## Crown (Sep 22, 2009)

Ije4eva said:


> I wish I could thank you 5 million times for this response!!!! You put it much better than I could have, but this is exactly what was on my heart when reading this thread. Like you said, many will not agree, but all the same thanks for this! I am a firm believer that when you put your faith in Christ, the ENTIRE law is written in your heart and as a new creature you start to live it out.  God continues to show me what that means for me in my daily life, but I include this 4th commandment in there are well.
> 
> Passage Hebrews 4:3-12:
> 
> ...



Amen!
No shadow!
Christian : Jesus-Christ is My rest.
I thank You, Lord!


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## yahswill76 (Sep 22, 2009)

blazingthru said:


> What I have discovered is no matter how many scriptures are put out on here and no matter what proof is shown. There are those who will not bend, will not sit down and discover the truth for themselves, its not my truth or my views. its fact. The sabbath (saturday the seventh day) is the true day that we are to keep holy. it identifies our God. we obey it because we prove that he is the one true God our creator and in him we place our lives and our trust. I am so curious as to why its so hard for many to obey it. What is it about it. It certainly is not a burden. But Satan desires us to worship him and he changed the day he enforces the day and will make it the Law. Very soon and when that day comes it will be terrible on this earth and we know that day is coming because God warned us of it. People are funny - you know that. They hear of terror coming but they don't believe until its on them and its to late for them. No one wants to listen and the terror will come just as the bible says it will and many will be lost because they refuse to believe or even study out for themselves the real truth. What truth they have will be gone. God will remove it. All of it. Those who refuse to believe, will be decieved by Satan. this bothered me and so I was determine to take what I heard and search the scriptures and see does it align with other passages and I wont' say I am good at doing all that but we have the internet and we have other people online who have done it who can provide the answers with Scriptures that harmonizes. I also pray about it and keep searching for the truth not for what I believe is the truth but what is the actual truth and accept it.
> 
> 8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 *but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God*. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 *For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them*, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore *the LORD blessed the Sabbath day **and made it holy. *


 
Thank you.  That is exactly what I was trying to say.  I just can't force someone to open their eyes.  They have to ask God to reveal the truth to them.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 22, 2009)

I'll give yet another example... where other christians are not obligated in the way that catholics/orthodox people are, yet they are christians but not in the Church as first instituted by Christ. That has to do with the eucharist and it becoming the actual body and blood...physical...of Christ upon consumption.  Christians who are not in these first churches are not obligated to 

1)attend full mass or liturgical mass where the eucharist is served as we are because if we fail willingly, it is a mortal sin...cutting us off from the grace of G-d.  
2)They are not obligated to abstain from sex before church as was definitely taught in the past...and still today for some...they are not.  
3)women are not allowed in some orthodox circles to receive eucharist, entering the holy of holies...yet other christian sects will allow women to receive communion
4)confession or reconciliation in the "temple" to a priest...at least once a year and each time you've committed a mortal sin
5)teaching the catechism to the children...this includes the decrees of the Church,according to  the Magisterium of teaching authority of the Church, including scriptural...much akin to Talmud...which explains the who's, what's, when's and why's of scripture and oral tradition
6)having a sacramental marriage within the church with the eucharist...and otherwise, you ain't married (no civil is valid)
7)obligated to allow for natural birth...natural family planning...meaning that birth control use is a mortal sin
8)attending the High Holy days or holy days of obligation...a must or one has committed a mortal sin...and there are many throughout the year
9)for orthodox and some eastern catholics, fasting during certain times of the year...including absolute meat fast, absolute dairy fast (vegan food only) and this can be up to 200+ days a year.
10-1,000,000 )because the list goes on and on and I still don't know them all....except for first communion and confirmation etc.


This is what most call legalism...yet here it is, judaism transformed through the Messiah, and we still have much of the same from judaism to our brand of christianity.  Now, who in his right mind would say to a protestant, "_you are not really following G-d is you don't do these_?"  No one should.  Well, I'll tell you why.  Because they aren't catholic/orthodox and they couldn't validly practice them anyway.  They'd have to convert and then they'd be bound, participating fully.  Same with judaism.  You aren't bound to that which you are not a part of.  You can't live out that sacramental life without coming under a covenant as such. 

As christians with none of these legal traditions, what are they bound to?  Submission to Christ and following Him according to the NT as it's presented to them.  There have even been priest who have said that they should not be obligated to worship on Sunday which is "catholic/orthodox" only because this was instituted by Jesus in the Church He built with Peter as the head.  No pope changed anything...this was the direct command and example by Christ in His church.  So, it might be valid for them on Saturday because they are not IN that very church.  

But to suggest that protestants don't know Jesus...absolute hogwash!  Because they are not bound to these laws?  Emphatically *NO*....  Jesus opened his hands wide for the whole of the world...as wide as the cross...and he gathered all...even if we don't yet have 1 way of worshipping Him.  In the messianic age, it will come to pass.  How and when?  Only He knows.  

I had hoped this to be an open discussion.  Rather, it has became an indictment against  g-d-fearing people and that makes my blood boil...not because I'm one of those g-d-fearing people...I'm talking about the rest of you.  Of course, we need to pick apart the variables and I welcome them for discussion. But you worship Christ according to the understanding YOU have been given.  Don't be *guilted* into a supposed state of sin due to someone else's interpretation. Jesus comes to you individually but that doesn't mean we are to thump each other over the heads.  Hopefully, my post will be understood and not misconstrued in any way.


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## blazingthru (Sep 22, 2009)

msa said:


> There are many people, including myself, who have studied this over and over again and still come to a different conclusion (based on the scriptures and the "proof") than you have.


 
So you are saying that you found the proof in the scriptures that Sunday is the true day that God wants you to keep holy.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 22, 2009)

It was given posts ago...evidence that they worshipped on Sunday...might wanna research a bit.  But hey, you do that which edifies YOU.  Don't cater your life to what other's want for you spiritually...I thought that was the point of this thread.


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## Shimmie (Sep 22, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> It was given posts ago...evidence that they worshipped on Sunday...might wanna research a bit. But hey, you do that which edifies YOU.
> 
> *Don't cater your life to what other's want for you spiritually...I thought that was the point of this thread*.


Amen.   

_"This is the day that the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it."_

Honor the Sabbath day and keep it Holy.   Jesus is the 'True' Sabbath, the honor is unto Him, not a day.   It's not the day which santifies the person, it's the Blood of Jesus and unto Him, we give full honor  throughout Eternity. 

Personally, everyday should be a 'Sabbath' within our hearts.  Just everyday, to give Him praise and glory.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 22, 2009)

Ha!!  Something opened through my eyes like scales falling off...literally...He is the Sabbath...we rest in Him.  I never ever saw it this way before.


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## dicapr (Sep 22, 2009)

Jesus kept the Sabbath.  He worshipped on Sabbath.  I am a follower of Christ, so that is what I am convicted to do.  Can we worship and be blessed on Sunday? Of course.  Can we keep the Sabbath on any other day except Saturday-NO!  Sabbath keeping will not save you, but it is a blessing that I feel too many Christians are missing out on.

Historically, the early Chrisitans worshiped on Saturday not Sunday.  Sunday worship was first embraced as a way for Gentile christians to distance themselves from the Jews.  Gentiles used to worship the Sun God and it was cultural for them to worship on Sunday.  When they converted, they continued to have there big service on Sunday.  The early church split over this issue and Sunday became the day of worship for Christianity.

It is still engrained in our culture and regarded by most of Chrisitianity as a day of rest.  However, it is difficult for me to hold on to the 10 commandments-all of which are repeated in the New Testement- and pretend that Jesus only nailed one to the cross.  And the one that he nailed to the cross is recorded that he kept.  And why would he nail the commandment that acknowledges him as creator and gives us a day of rest to the cross?


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## aribell (Sep 22, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Ha!! Something opened through my eyes like scales falling off...*literally*...*He is the Sabbath*...*we rest in Him*. I never ever saw it this way before.


 


Hebrews 3-4


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 22, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> Hebrews 3-4



And to the "HEBREWS"  ahahaha.  I must say, this has been one of the most interesting discussions we've had!


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## Shimmie (Sep 22, 2009)

God is awesome and He leaves no Stone unturned.   He has us as "all' as Christians , covering the entire week's end and the week's beginning.  

It' is an overflow of worship, which He brings it to a close with those who worship on Saturday, and brings it into a new beginning with those who worship on Sunday.   Everything in between, is surrounded by those of us who stand on the 'wall' and maintain the standard of worship, on both Saturday and Sunday.   

God said that He searched and could find no one who would stand on the wall and we who gather, answered His call.  The high praises of Saturday overflow into Sunday and carry us into mid-week with Bible Study.   The seal cannot be broken.   We each are giving honor to the Lord of Lords, and the King of Kings, each in a way which God honors and He always will. 

He's not mad, neither is he absent.  He's honored and shows up to be worshiped when unto Him, His children call, no matter the day or the hour.  For it's the heart that He's attuned to; the heart which honors Him,  Not the day, but the heart and in such worship, He is well pleased.  

Sunday through Saturday, the days are His and in each moment, He is indeed present in each Sabbath for us all.   For there is only 'one' Sabbath, and the Sabbath is Jesus Christ.  

He is the* Son* we worship who created the sun which we worship not.

Yes...   He is.  :Rose:

So like Jesus, both Saturday and Sunday, the 'Alpha and the Omega', the beginning and the end, we each have it covered, giving honor to Him, our Lord, Our Father, Our God.  :Rose:


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## divya (Sep 23, 2009)

It is very interesting that Hebrews 4 can be purported to mean that rest is in Jesus, so that Sabbath-keeping may be abandoned. Those verses confirm the necessity to keep the Sabbath. 

Especially verses 8-10:

_8For *if* Jesus had given them rest, then would he *not* afterward have spoken of another day.

9There *remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God*.

10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath *ceased from his own works, as God did from his*_. 


It couldn't be more clear and straightforward. It clearly states that Jesus did not give rest, and that there remains a rest for God's people. Those of us who enter that rest stop our own work, just like God did. 

What did God do? He worked 6 days and rested on the 7th day. Verse 11 then states: 


_*Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.*_


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## divya (Sep 23, 2009)

Interesting discussion thus far. I believe that there are different types of laws in the Scriptures, and that the verses that deal with _esteeming days, meats_ etc. deal with the ceremonial law. It is a recurring theme in numerous New Testament books and tend to be spoken of together. The 7th day Sabbath is part of the Ten Commandments, not the ceremonial law. 

Now dealing with what Sabbath keeping is really all about...

The Scriptures give guidelines to help us keep the Sabbath holy. In order to fully experience the Sabbath and dedicate the time to honor our Creator, we are instructed to *put away our worldly cares*. Therefore, in that way, that generally does involve not cooking beforehand and not working etc. That is why the Ten Commandments specifically instructs us not to work. If you are consumed with worldly cares, your mind cannot truly be on the Creator. God gives us 6 days to do everything else we need to do. How much is it to ask of us to dedicate the 7th day to Him alone? He is our Maker, our Provider and King.

Jesus taught us that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath, and that legalism is unnecessary. So if you pick grapes for a starving person lying in the streets, that's in accordance with the Sabbath. That is different from just being too lazy to prepare a meal for yourself and family in preparation for the Sabbath.  One is not legalistic by simply keeping the law, because we are suppose to keep the law out of our love of God.

*John 14:15* - _If ye love me, keep my commandments._

Legalism largely deals with the idea that keeping the law is what constitutes salvation. The Jews became so obsessed with the law, thinking that with all the rules - many of which are not Scriptural - would earn them the salvation. 

Also, if Jesus was not concerned with both inward understanding of the Sabbath and outward expression of the inner condition, then why did Jesus always keep the Sabbath?  He showed us how to keep the Sabbath both inwardly and outwardly. Why is it acceptable to throw away part of His example as unnecessary for us today? 

This quote at the end of the earlier article sums it up very nicely: 

_Let us make it plain that law keeping, even Sabbath-keeping, does not "justify" you, or make your past evil actions right with the Almighty. We are freely justified by grace, unmerited pardon, for our past sins. Being justified, we are commanded by the Eternal to obey Him in Spirit and in Truth. You cannot "keep" the Sabbath spiritually without also keeping it physically. To fail to answer specific questions about the Sabbath places us on the other side, the liberal side which tells the lie that all you have to do is keep the Sabbath in a right attitude and forget about the details. Let us be balanced._


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## divya (Sep 23, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> It was given posts ago...evidence that they worshipped on Sunday...might wanna research a bit.  But hey, you do that which edifies YOU.  Don't cater your life to what other's want for you spiritually...I thought that was the point of this thread.



I believe that we all agree that early Christians worshiped on Sunday.  They also worshiped during the week. People are definitely free to worship God any day - and should worship every day. 

The Sabbath, however, is _not_ only about worship.  The Scriptures states that you can only the 7th day is to be kept holy.

There is a difference between _keeping a day holy_ and simply _worshiping_.


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## JinaRicci (Sep 23, 2009)

I think when we have these discussions, some people feel that their worship on Sunday is being disregarded or considered less than worthy.  Those who worship on Sabbath may feel discounted when there is talk of any day being the same.  

These feelings get us hurt and defensive but we need to try and understand each other and come from a place of respect and humility.  I need to work on this and I am sorry for causing any hurt.  

I think all of us on this forum are living with the purpose of serving God and getting closer to Him.  The fellowship here helps me to do that just like fellowshipping with my church family.  Thank you so much for that.  

We won't always agree because we have different beliefs.  Let's still try to make an effort to not argue the Word.  None of us can convict each other of anything anyway- we're not the Holy Spirit.

In this thread, a bit of historical info was presented for those who never heard.  It seems that maybe everyone here already knew this... In any event, it is an interesting account.

Is it worth looking into?  That's something only you can decide.  Of course, those of us who keep the Sabbath will hope you do.   

My prayer this morning is that we will just let the Holy Spirit continue to guide us as we serve Him.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 23, 2009)

divya said:


> It is very interesting that Hebrews 4 can be purported to mean that rest is in Jesus, *so that Sabbath-keeping may be abandoned.* Those verses confirm the necessity to keep the Sabbath.
> _*.*_



That's not what I am saying.  I'm studying into it right now with someone who can give me an hebraic understanding of that passage.  Of course, that's part of it...but there's more to it.  I'm more interested in the spirit of the Sabbath, not in the actual day of it.  Like I mentioned before, non-Jews are not held to observe Saturday observance.  That is for Jews.  But man is called to honor Sabbath rest in G-d period....we're all clamoring to ascertain which day lol.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 23, 2009)

divya said:


> I believe that we all agree *that early Christians worshiped on Sunday. * They also worshiped during the week. People are definitely free to worship God any day - and should worship every day.
> 
> The Sabbath, however, is _not_ only about worship.  The Scriptures states that you can only the 7th day is to be kept holy.
> 
> There is a difference between _keeping a day holy_ and simply _worshiping_.




Evidently, some of us here have not gotten the memo.  I still encourage us to read all the scriptures that have been sent in by several posts.  BTW, worship of G-d also means sitting down and doing nothing...it's the intent.  I'm remembering my Shabbat-keeping days.


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## divya (Sep 23, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> That's not what I am saying.  I'm studying into it right now with someone who can give me an hebraic understanding of that passage.  Of course, that's part of it...but there's more to it.  I'm more interested in the spirit of the Sabbath, not in the actual day of it.  Like I mentioned before, non-Jews are not held to observe Saturday observance.  That is for Jews.  But man is called to honor Sabbath rest in G-d period....we're all clamoring to ascertain which day lol.



Oh no, I didn't mean you, but it's a general teaching among many clergy as is that idea that the Sabbath is for the Jews. We can agree to disagree on that one.


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## divya (Sep 23, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> *Evidently, some of us here have not gotten the memo.*  I still encourage us to read all the scriptures that have been sent in by several posts.  BTW, worship of G-d also means sitting down and doing nothing...it's the intent.  I'm remembering my Shabbat-keeping days.



Maybe not. It can be easy to believe that it is an issue of worship  - even T.D. Jakes had that one confused. Sure that's part of it, but definitely not all. Keeping Sabbath holy is something that is completely "set apart" from anything else, which I know you have experienced...


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 23, 2009)

divya said:


> The 7th day Sabbath is part of the Ten Commandments, not the ceremonial law.
> 
> Now dealing with what Sabbath keeping is really all about...
> 
> ...



But that's just it...Jesus is L-rd of the Sabbath. He made it for man, not man for the Sabbath.  The decalogue is G-d's revelation to man through the Hebrews....directly talking to THEM and all generations of THEM throughout the ages.  Christians have been grafted into the vine...the curtain in the Temple torn...no longer separation.  That doesn't mean Jews are invalid and that christians have to uphold Jewish law.  Salvation is offered to all.  Jesus provided the example.  If we can argue that that revelation and prescribed mitzvot were all leading up to the Messiah and the spiritual meaning, the crux, the jist being returning to G-d in one's heart...how can we not see the spirit of the Sabbath spiritually?  It's as though we want to subjugate Christ, the Redeemer of the world, under Saturday worship.  

I don't have a problem with Shabbat for a variety of reasons.  I kept it Jewishly.  But I do have a problem when scripture is manipulated to say that those who do not worship on Saturday are somehow transgressing G-d.  Jesus tells you you are not.  

Interesting note:  Sunday Sabbath in the RCC was absolutely mandated.  People have grown away from the practice...but you weren't supposed to actually work on Sunday to be in good standing (not sure if considered a mortal sin or not) with church teaching.  No one's saying that we shouldn't devote a day...but Christ is the head.  Some prefer Saturday, some prefer the L-rd's Day.  

Jews don't go by "scripture" concerning mitzvot and ritual laws...that's a protestant invention....  Oral law, tradition, scripture....can't divide it.


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## Sharpened (Sep 23, 2009)

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Being deceived as a believer is a terrifying prospect; that they were not good enough to be a part of the "elect." I come before you as someone who has been deceived many times. Does that mean I am unworthy? No, it means that I refuse to remain in the deception God has revealed to me. As long as we are in this yucky flesh, we are subject to being tricked at all times. Dealing with deception is only a part of the "pruning" we receive to grow in the manner he wants us to.

He made a commandment to set aside a certain day to be still and pull away from the world. The Apostles obeyed it. Why shouldn't we?


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## Crown (Sep 23, 2009)

Nymphe said:


> He made a commandment to *set aside a certain day* to be still and pull away from the world. *The Apostles obeyed it*. Why shouldn't we?



And it's today, dear Nymphe. Chapters 3 and 4 of Hebrews are great to study. Not one or two isolated verses, but the whole chapters with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Heb. 4.7 Again, *he limiteth a certain day*, saying in David, *To day*, after so long a time; as it is said, *To day* if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

With Jesus-Christ, a day has nothing in common with the priesthood.

 1Cor. 3.16 Know ye not that ye are *the temple of God*, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 3.17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for *the temple of God is holy*, which temple ye are.

1Cor. 6.17 6.17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 6.19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 6.20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore *glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's*.

1Pet. 2.5 *Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.*
2.9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an *holy nation*, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Heb. 13.15 By him therefore let us offer *the sacrifice of praise to God continually*, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

Eph. 2.21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an *holy temple* in the Lord: 2.22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


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## divya (Sep 23, 2009)

Nymphe said:


> Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
> 
> Being deceived as a believer is a terrifying prospect; that they were not good enough to be a part of the "elect." I come before you as someone who has been deceived many times. Does that mean I am unworthy? No, it means that I refuse to remain in the deception God has revealed to me. As long as we are in this yucky flesh, we are subject to being tricked at all times. Dealing with deception is only a part of the "pruning" we receive to grow in the manner he wants us to.
> 
> He made a commandment to set aside a certain day to be still and pull away from the world. The Apostles obeyed it. Why shouldn't we?



This is so true. For every commandment or principle that God has given to us, Satan has created counterfeits or forms of deception. 

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 
_The devil has created false gods, not just religions but things in our lives that can consume us to the point that they become gods._

2.  Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
_Graven images abound in many religions, even in certain branches of Christianity._

3. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
_The devil has created havoc here, as God's name is taken in vain, and there are even terms stem from taking God's name in vain that are made to seem not as bad. Deception. _

4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:
_The devil has created a counterfeit day -the first day - that God did not set apart by resting, blessing and hallowing it._

5.Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. 
_The devil has consistently attacked the family structure, turning children against parents and vice versa._

6. Thou shalt not kill. 
_ Murder is everywhere. People even make heroes out of warmongers because the devil has made murder look acceptable._

7.Thou shalt not commit adultery. 
_ Satan has destroyed so many marriages, making some feel adultery is justified in certain cases. Some even believe that humans are not made to be monogamous._

8.Thou shalt not steal. 
_Stealing is everywhere. Some feel is it justified to steal from the poor...or the rich. Deception._

9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
_Lying is rampant. The Devil has created the idea of the "little white lie." Many believe that some lies are permissible._ 

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
_Many cultures promote coveting what others have. Many people are always attempting to "Keep up with the Joneses."_

It is all part of a great deception. We have to be careful and keep our eyes on the Lord and His principles.


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## Crown (Sep 23, 2009)

> It is very interesting that Hebrews 4 can be purported to mean that rest is in Jesus, so that Sabbath-keeping may be abandoned. Those verses confirm the necessity to keep the Sabbath.
> 
> Especially verses 8-10:
> 
> ...


Let's be vigilant and not say something just to justify our doctrine. King James translated it _Jesus_, but it's clear that it is not about Jesus : Jesus-Christ, but Jesus : Joshua who entered in the land of Canaan.

Heb.  3.15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.    3.16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.    3.17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?    3.18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?    3.19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.  
 

 New KJV version :
8 For if *Joshua *had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God _did_ from His.


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## divya (Sep 23, 2009)

Crown said:


> *Let's be vigilant and not say something just to justify our doctrine.* King James translated it _Jesus_, but it's clear that it is not about Jesus : Jesus-Christ, but Jesus : Joshua who entered in the land of Canaan.
> 
> Heb.  3.15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.    3.16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.    3.17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?    3.18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?    3.19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
> 
> ...



*I agree. The seventh day Sabbath is consistent with the entire Scriptures. Hebrews 4 is consistent with every other Scripture concerning the Sabbath. Amazing that the New King James Version changed verse 8 from Jesus to Joshua! Wow!*

*Hebrews 4*- *KJV*

_ 1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

 2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

 3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

* 4For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
*

 5And in this place again, *If they shall enter into my rest.*

 6Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

 7Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, *To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.*

*8For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

 9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

 10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.*

 11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief._


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## Crown (Sep 23, 2009)

My last :
   Heb. 7.12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

  9.11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
  9.15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 9.16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 9.17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
  10.14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 10.15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 10.16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

  Heb. 10.19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 10.20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 10.21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 10.22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

  Heb. 3.6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Blessing to all!


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## Sharpened (Sep 23, 2009)

Crown said:


> And it's today, dear Nymphe. Chapters 3 and 4 of Hebrews are great to study. Not one or two isolated verses, but the whole chapters with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
> 
> Heb. 4.7 Again, *he limiteth a certain day*, saying in David, *To day*, after so long a time; as it is said, *To day* if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
> 
> ...



When do we do our work, then?

Yes, worship is an ongoing thing; that is not being debated. A part of worship is obedience, is it not? Are we to change the day He made Holy, to free ourselves from fleshly distractions?


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 23, 2009)

divya said:


> *I agree. The seventh day Sabbath is consistent with the entire Scriptures. Hebrews 4 is consistent with every other Scripture concerning the Sabbath. Amazing that the New King James Version changed verse 8 from Jesus to Joshua! Wow!*
> 
> *Hebrews 4*- *KJV*
> 
> ...




I'm not understanding about verse 8.  Joshua means "G-d will save" whereas Yeshua means "G-d is salvation."  They are two different names and meanings.


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## divya (Sep 23, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> I'm not understanding about verse 8.  Joshua means "G-d will save" whereas Yeshua means "G-d is salvation."  They are two different names and meanings.



The KJV says Jesus and the NKJV says Joshua. Why did the NKJV feel the need to change it I wonder? Hmmmmm....


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## Shimmie (Sep 23, 2009)

divya said:


> The KJV says Jesus and the NKJV says Joshua. Why did the NKJV feel the need to change it I wonder? Hmmmmm....


They both have the same meaning, Sweetie.  Those two sames are one in the same.      :Rose:


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 23, 2009)

divya said:


> The KJV says Jesus and the NKJV says Joshua. Why did the NKJV feel the need to change it I wonder? Hmmmmm....



I checked another version and it's Joshua.  Would make sense...they weren't talking about Jesus.  What is it in the Greek or Aramaic?  Anybody know?  But those two names have different meanings.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 23, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> They both have the same meaning, Sweetie.  Those two sames are one in the same.      :Rose:




Well, in Hebrew...Joshua (Yehoshua) means "G-d will save" and "Yeshua" means "G-d IS salvation."  Those are different names and meanings.  I'm thinking of the prophecies that His name will mean salvation.  But Yehoshua definitely points to Yeshua.  Jesus wouldn't be "G-d will save" because He had come so He would be "Salvation."  I'm just thinking out loud......


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## Poohbear (Sep 23, 2009)

We should worship and praise God everyday!!! Anytime! Anywhere!  It shouldn't be limited to just one day a week.


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## aribell (Sep 23, 2009)

divya said:


> It is very interesting that Hebrews 4 can be purported to mean that rest is in Jesus, so that Sabbath-keeping may be abandoned. Those verses confirm the necessity to keep the Sabbath.
> 
> 
> Especially verses 8-10:
> ...






In order for that interpretation to be correct,  that entire passage would need to be about keeping the Sabbath in traditional Jewish ways.  But that goes against what the broader context of the book is saying, particularly given that Paul then goes on to speak of Jesus being the fulfillment of other Jewish laws, meaning that those laws no longer need to be carried out in the same manner as before.  The letter to the Hebrews on the whole is about Jesus as the fulfillment of the old testament laws.  It is written to Hebrews to help them understand why they no longer need the temple, the sacrifices, the holy days of obligation because Christ has fulfilled all—not done away with it all, but fulfilled it all.

I think that more of it needs to be unpacked.  

“And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?  So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.” (Heb. 3:18-19)  

The disobedience of which the author speaks is specifically related to not having faith in the Gospel, not Sabbath-day observance:  "Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.  For indeed_ the gospel_ was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.  For we who have believed do enter that rest."  (4:1-3)  Here, he links entering into God’s rest to embracing the Gospel.  Further, he says that
For if _Joshua_ had given them rest.  Sometimes translated as “Jesus” but better and more accurate translations translate it as Joshua, which actually is less confusing, as the author of Hebrews is not talking about Jesus here, but rather Joshua of the Old Testament.  And as it has been mentioned, the names are connected.  Joshua is a pre-figure of Christ, as one who was leading God's people into the promised land.  (_Moreover, it it’s not just one errant interpretation (NKJV) that “changed” it from Jesus to Joshua.  It’s the King James that was not correct, which is a point that is fairly well established in biblical scholarship.  We need to be careful of creating doctrines around one particular interpretation of Scripture.)_

Why would the author of Hebrews mention Joshua giving them rest, saying that Joshua had not actually given them rest?  Because Joshua was the leader who led God’s people into the Promised Land.  For the Hebrews, Canaan would have been their rest and blessing. The disobedient Israelites who died in the wilderness failed to enter into the Promised Land.  But even more than that, those who did enter it still did not receive God’s ultimate rest.  By quoting the passage saying that there is yet another day and another rest, the Hebrews author is saying that even after God’s people entered the promised land, they still did not have rest, which led David to write in the Psalms: “If today you hear His voice, harden not your hearts.”  

In David’s time, the people of God had already gotten to the Promised Land, and yet they had not truly entered into God’s rest because they were still disobedient.  Thus, the author says, “There remains a rest for the people of God.”  When he says that God designates “a _certain _day,” he does not say that that day is a particular day of the week, but rather that that “certain” day is “_Today._”  He is speaking not about calendar observances, but about coming to belief in the gospel _today_.  _Today_, be obedient to Christ.  _Today_ enter into God’s rest.  

Some have not entered into the rest because they have not embraced the gospel in faith.  Again, the author said “for we who have believed do enter that rest.” We enter that rest when we believe.  When the author says, “For there remains a rest for the people of God,” he is reiterating the point that the covenant of old did not ultimately bring rest to the people of God.  But that rest is available now, and some have experienced it already, as he says:“For he who _has entered_ His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God _did_ from His.”

Now, in all the NT, is the act of “ceasing from works” ever tied to physical labor, jobs, cooking, etc?  Not at all.  Wherever “works” are mentioned, they refer to the actions associated with the Jewish tradition to obtain righteousness before God.  We are to cease striving for acceptance before God through our own efforts; i.e, we are to come to faith in Christ through the preaching of the Gospel.  

Rest is not something we do, but something that God gives us, allows us to enter into through faith in Christ.  _If Jesus did not bring us rest, then there’s no rest to be had at all!_



God’s mysteries are wonderful.


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## aribell (Sep 23, 2009)

To be honest, I find the implication that non-Saturday observers have some kind of agenda to get rid of the Sabbath to be rather odd.  Biblical translators are not sitting around trying to figure out ways of eliminating the Sabbath from the Bible.  In the grand scheme of the Christian life, resting on Saturday would hardly be the challenging part.  

I think a lot of people (including the devil!) would sooner change the Bible's meaning to allow for fornication, adultery, and homosexuality before changing it to mean that we don't have to rest on Saturday.  Again, we're all seeking to be obedient to God here.

Also, from today's viewpoint, keeping Sabbath on Saturday (or keeping it in traditonal ways at all) looks like a desire to be more faithful to the radical call of the law.  But when the Hebrews heard these messages, the idea of traditional observance no longer being in effect _was _radical to them.  The idea that so much of how they observed the law and related themselves to God was radically changed by Jesus Christ was a stumbling block for some.  They had difficulty accepting Christ as the fulfillment of the law.  So we shouldn't feel a need to bring back Sabbath/Saturday observance as a way of being faithful to the law.  If we get stuck on that point, we're doing the same thing that that Hebrews did when the Gospel was first preached to them.


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## JinaRicci (Sep 23, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> To be honest, I find the implication that non-Saturday observers have some kind of agenda to get rid of the Sabbath to be rather odd. Biblical translators are not sitting around trying to figure out ways of eliminating the Sabbath from the Bible. In the grand scheme of the Christian life, resting on Saturday would hardly be the challenging part.
> 
> I think a lot of people (including the devil!) would sooner change the Bible's meaning to allow for fornication, adultery, and homosexuality before changing it to mean that we don't have to rest on Saturday. Again, we're all seeking to be obedient to God here.
> 
> Also, from today's viewpoint, keeping Sabbath on Saturday (or keeping it in traditonal ways at all) looks like a desire to be more faithful to the radical call of the law. But when the Hebrews heard these messages, the idea of traditional observance no longer being in effect _was _radical to them. The idea that so much of how they observed the law and related themselves to God was radically changed by Jesus Christ was a stumbling block for some. They had difficulty accepting Christ as the fulfillment of the law. So we shouldn't feel a need to bring back Sabbath/Saturday observance as a way of being faithful to the law. If we get stuck on that point, we're doing the same thing that that Hebrews did when the Gospel was first preached to them.


 
Hey Nicola, that's an interesting viewpoint. To me it's not Christians who are worshipping on Sunday who have this agenda. No... Your desire is to serve God. 

This thing was put into place a long time ago. Let's face it- a deception is easier accepted when it's not so obvious and over time it becomes even easier. Adultery etc. those things are moral issues as well that are not acceptable to some people who aren't even Christians. Also- Christian or not, we're trying to keep the law radically as law-abiding citizens (well for the most part  ). We don't want to kill, lie or commit adultery...

On keeping the Sabbath- it can be challenging and many people use this very reason to avoid even trying to keep it. There are things that you do have to sacrifice. People run into problems with jobs that require them to work on the Sabbath. There are many things that take place on Saturday and you quickly realize just how many things once you start. As a student, you wouldn't study either-even for that exam you know you're not ready for!! But I can tell you stories of things that I have gone through- "sacrifices" that I made- even as a student- and God blessed me in the end. With Him all things truly are possible.

The question is why did they change the day? What's the significance of this move? And did God warns us that this would happen?


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## divya (Sep 23, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> They both have the same meaning, Sweetie.  Those two sames are one in the same.      :Rose:



Jesus and Joshua are not the same, in my belief...



GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> I checked another version and it's Joshua.  Would make sense...they weren't talking about Jesus.  What is it in the Greek or Aramaic?  Anybody know?  But those two names have different meanings.



I did some reading on the versions. Many of them branched from the New King James. My Greek has Jesus... This is quite strange.

Here's a site I found on changes made in the NKJV and follow by other versions. Scroll down for the comparisons. http://www.av1611.org/nkjv.html

Here's what they had to say at the end: 



> The NKJV removes the word "Lord" 66 times!
> 
> The NKJV removes the word God 51 times!
> 
> ...



I don't use the other versions but I'm certainly curious about this now...


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## divya (Sep 23, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> In order for that interpretation to be correct,  that entire passage would need to be about keeping the Sabbath in traditional Jewish ways.  But that goes against what the broader context of the book is saying, particularly given that Paul then goes on to speak of Jesus being the fulfillment of other Jewish laws, meaning that those laws no longer need to be carried out in the same manner as before.  The letter to the Hebrews on the whole is about Jesus as the fulfillment of the old testament laws.  It is written to Hebrews to help them understand why they no longer need the temple, the sacrifices, the holy days of obligation because Christ has fulfilled all—not done away with it all, but fulfilled it all.
> 
> I think that more of it needs to be unpacked.
> 
> ...




Here you share the interpretations held by first-day worshipers. However, where you believe that Jesus did away with all Old Testament law, many Sabbath-keepers believe that He fulfilled the ceremonial/sacrificial law. All of the 10 commandments are mentioned in the New Testament, extending their validity. On these issues, the two groups will always diverge doctrinally.


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## divya (Sep 23, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> To be honest, I find the implication that non-Saturday observers have some kind of agenda to get rid of the Sabbath to be rather odd.  Biblical translators are not sitting around trying to figure out ways of eliminating the Sabbath from the Bible.  In the grand scheme of the Christian life, resting on Saturday would hardly be the challenging part.
> 
> I think a lot of people (including the devil!) would sooner change the Bible's meaning to allow for fornication, adultery, and homosexuality before changing it to mean that we don't have to rest on Saturday.  Again, we're all seeking to be obedient to God here.
> 
> Also, from today's viewpoint, keeping Sabbath on Saturday (or keeping it in traditonal ways at all) looks like a desire to be more faithful to the radical call of the law.  But when the Hebrews heard these messages, the idea of traditional observance no longer being in effect _was _radical to them.  The idea that so much of how they observed the law and related themselves to God was radically changed by Jesus Christ was a stumbling block for some.  They had difficulty accepting Christ as the fulfillment of the law.  So we shouldn't feel a need to bring back Sabbath/Saturday observance as a way of being faithful to the law.  If we get stuck on that point, we're doing the same thing that that Hebrews did when the Gospel was first preached to them.



I believe it is the _agenda_ of true Christians - whether Sunday-worshiping or Sabbath-observing - to please God. As Nymphe pointed out, the grand deception begin long ago by Satan, who is seeking whom he can devour. And as you point out, it isn't limited to this one issue at all. There are so many way that the devil can deceive us. 

Keeping the Sabbath appears not to be a challenge to many people. However, as Jina has pointed out, people lose their jobs daily because they choose to keep Sabbath holy. Past statistics reveal that two to three people lose their jobs daily in the U.S. because they refuse to work on Sabbath. As a student, I have had to make arrangements for required training done over the weekend. It required me going into the Dean with the head of the Jewish Law Students Association. So much is scheduled on the Sabbath. For example, just to be able to exercise the option to take the LSAT on Sunday, you have to send proof that you are a member of a Sabbath-keeping faith. Then until you live close, you have to travel to a place where they will administer the test on Sunday. Let's not even talk about bar classes. But it's worth it to please God! 

From today's viewpoint as a Sabbath-keeper, keeping the law of God is out of *love* for God. The issue in Hebrews in my belief deals with the setting aside of the priestly laws (sacrificial/ceremonial laws), while the Ten Commandments are written in our hearts - to become a part of who we are and how we live. The priestly laws (sacrificial/ceremonial) are set aside because of Jesus' sacrifice. I love the imagery of Jesus as our High Priest!


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## divya (Sep 23, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> But that's just it...Jesus is L-rd of the Sabbath. He made it for man, not man for the Sabbath.  The decalogue is G-d's revelation to man through the Hebrews....directly talking to THEM and all generations of THEM throughout the ages.  Christians have been grafted into the vine...the curtain in the Temple torn...no longer separation.  That doesn't mean Jews are invalid and that christians have to uphold Jewish law.  Salvation is offered to all.  Jesus provided the example.  If we can argue that that revelation and prescribed mitzvot were all leading up to the Messiah and the spiritual meaning, the crux, the jist being returning to G-d in one's heart...how can we not see the spirit of the Sabbath spiritually?  It's as though we want to subjugate Christ, the Redeemer of the world, under Saturday worship.
> 
> I don't have a problem with Shabbat for a variety of reasons.  I kept it Jewishly.  But I do have a problem when scripture is manipulated to say that those who do not worship on Saturday are somehow transgressing G-d.  Jesus tells you you are not.
> 
> ...



Yes, Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. The Scriptures state that the “Sabbath was made for man.”  It does not say that the Sabbath was made for the Jews.  Buried somewhere in this discussion are differences on the role of the Jews, and here we will differ...

Israel was chosen by the God to be an example to other nations so that by them others would come to a knowledge of the one true God and His principles. God revealed the Decalogue to Israel to further that purpose and to share the truth through their example. It was not written solely for them in any way - Israel was only part of the grand plan of God. 

I understand the curtain (veil) in the Temple torn from top to bottom signifying that the entire ceremonial system was no longer necessary because Christ made atonement of our sins.  Ceremonial/sacrificial law was temporary. It was a shadow of things to come, full of types – all of which pointed to the ultimate sacrifice by Jesus. When Jesus died, no longer was it necessary to sacrifice the lamb/goat. Those sacrifices were shadows, looking towards Christ’s redemptive work.

When the curtain tore, it revealed the the Holiest of Holies. That curtain separated a sinful people from a Holy God. That is why only the high priest could enter in on the Day of Atonement. When Christ died, the curtain tore – revealing the Holiest of Holies because now God is accessible to all of us. Praise His name!  No longer did the chosen high priest need to pass through the veil with blood (Hebrews 9:7) but Jesus made the our Holy God accessible to every person. 

*Hebrews 10:19-22*
_19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,   20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;   21And having an high priest over the house of God;  22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water._

Christ’s death did away with the sacrificial/ceremonial system and Hebrews expounds on this. At the same time, Christ affirmed the Ten Commandments through His walk and writing the law in our hearts, that we may live in out in our lives. The sacrificial/ceremonial law is not the same as the Ten Commandments. Only the former was nailed to the cross. What is true, however, is that the Ten Commandments do not save us - we keep them because we love Jesus who gave His life for us, giving us access to God and the Kingdom of Heaven.


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## Child0fGod (Sep 23, 2009)

1star said:


> This is a YT video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH8520YG-gI
> 
> It lays out the historical proof that the Sabbath was changed by man from Saturday to Sunday.
> 
> ...



ohhhh it's theforerunner777!! lol, this dude is the best. God keep him. i saw this video on his channel and intend to watch it... watched the entire 11-part "Jay-Z Deception" video. i'll probably come back and post my thoughts then  thank you for sharing with us!


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 23, 2009)

divya said:


> *I believe it is the agenda of true Christians - whether Sunday-worshiping or Sabbath-observing - to please God.* As Nymphe pointed out, the grand deception begin long ago by Satan, who is seeking whom he can devour. And as you point out, it isn't limited to this one issue at all. *There are so many way that the devil can deceive us. *
> 
> 
> _From today's viewpoint as a Sabbath-keeper, keeping the law of God is out of *love* for God._ The issue in Hebrews in my belief deals with the setting aside of the priestly laws (sacrificial/ceremonial laws), while the Ten Commandments are written in our hearts - to become a part of who we are and how we live. The priestly laws (sacrificial/ceremonial) are set aside because of Jesus' sacrifice. I love the imagery of Jesus as our High Priest!


 

I think we all find that perfectly acceptable, just as long as we all realize that one's love of G-d and demonstration of it does not point to the lack of discernment, love and seeking of G-d when practices and interpretations differ for another.


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## divya (Sep 23, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> I think we all find that perfectly acceptable, just as long as we all realize that one's love of G-d and demonstration of it does not point to the lack of discernment, love and seeking of G-d when practices and interpretations differ for another.



 Only the Lord determines whether we are living up to the light that we have been given. I believe that there will be people of all faiths standing on the sea of glass, even including individuals that may not have professed Christianity here on earth. That last statement is a whole separate issue though...


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## JinaRicci (Sep 23, 2009)

^^ OT: Roti!! girl- what are u trying to do to me? LOL my favorite dish...


Yep- only God can judge.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 23, 2009)

divya said:


> Yes, Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. The Scriptures state that the “Sabbath was made for man.” *It does not say that the Sabbath was made for the Jews.* Buried somewhere in this discussion are differences on the role of the Jews, and here we will differ...
> 
> Israel was chosen by the God to be an example to other nations so that by them others would come to a knowledge of the one true God and His principles. God revealed the Decalogue to Israel to further that purpose and to share the truth through their example. It was not written solely for them in any way - Israel was only part of the grand plan of God.
> 
> ...


 

To the bolded, I know but that's not what I am saying.  What I see is a disconnect here about Israel's continuous role in the scheme of things.  The First Covenant is still in effect and is "their" salvation.  Many, if not most, christians disagree with this and believe themselves to have taken over the physical and spiritual place of Israel.  This is what I am speaking about.  Shabbat, for the Jew, is actually mandatory...even though there are many secular people who never step foot into a synagogue, let alone interrupt their weekend lives to welcome in the sabbath. In that sense, christians cannot keep shabbat.  They are not Jews.  This is the disconnect.  When a christian keeps sabbath, it is according to their specific role.  They keep the gentile sabbath, worship of g-d, rest in Him etc.  Their role and purpose is distinct from that of the Jew.  In the cosmos, who knows how much is held together because some Jewish family is faithfully honoring and welcoming in Shabbas?  Roles...they are distinct.  

When a Jew keeps sabbath, it is for another distinct purpose to fulfill that special role in the world that G-d appointed.  It cannot be changed.  It has not been abolished.  So, the roles people have, Jewish and gentile, differ.  Rest is in G-d, period.  But how we do it and by what authority, what purpose, etc...depends upon the role each of us place in the universe.  

As far as the Decalogue, to me, it is salvation.  I cannot be in full grace if I do not examine my conscience against it.  I cannot participate fully in the sacraments if I am not in good standing.  For us, it is still the law to live by.  "If you love me, you will obey my commandments..."  That might be or might not be limited to the Decalogue...but to other mitzvot.  That's for study.  But I cannot transgress them without putting myself in mortal danger and it includes the Sabbath worship...according to the first day of the week that Jesus broke bread with the apostles.


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## divya (Sep 23, 2009)

JinaRicci said:


> ^^ OT: Roti!! girl- what are u trying to do to me? LOL my favorite dish...
> 
> 
> Yep- only God can judge.




My favorite too! Been dreaming of one this week. I'm going to have some this weekend when I head back home!


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## divya (Sep 23, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> To the bolded, I know but that's not what I am saying.  *What I see is a disconnect here about Israel's continuous role in the scheme of things. The First Covenant is still in effect and is "their" salvation.  Many, if not most, christians disagree with this and believe themselves to have taken over the physical and spiritual place of Israel.  This is what I am speaking about. *  Shabbat, for the Jew, is actually mandatory...even though there are many secular people who never step foot into a synagogue, let alone interrupt their weekend lives to welcome in the sabbath. In that sense, christians cannot keep shabbat.  They are not Jews.  This is the disconnect.  When a christian keeps sabbath, it is according to their specific role.  They keep the gentile sabbath, worship of g-d, rest in Him etc.  Their role and purpose is distinct from that of the Jew.  In the cosmos, who knows how much is held together because some Jewish family is faithfully honoring and welcoming in Shabbas?  Roles...they are distinct.
> 
> When a Jew keeps sabbath, it is for another distinct purpose to fulfill that special role in the world that G-d appointed.  It cannot be changed.  It has not been abolished.  So, the roles people have, Jewish and gentile, differ.  Rest is in G-d, period.  But how we do it and by what authority, what purpose, etc...depends upon the role each of us place in the universe.
> 
> As far as the Decalogue, to me, it is salvation.  I cannot be in full grace if I do not examine my conscience against it.  I cannot participate fully in the sacraments if I am not in good standing.  For us, it is still the law to live by.  "If you love me, you will obey my commandments..."  That might be or might not be limited to the Decalogue...but to other mitzvot.  That's for study.  But I cannot transgress them without putting myself in mortal danger and it includes the Sabbath worship...according to the first day of the week that Jesus broke bread with the apostles.



Yes, that's a main area where we differ. I don't believe in that continuous role of Israel. And as stated previously, since the Scriptures established the Sabbath before Israel, it isn't confined to them. I believe the the Scriptures are for all and salvation through believing on Jesus Christ is for all.

Galatians 3:26-28 - _For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise._

The verses above reflect my belief, but I understand where you stand in yours.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 23, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> It is written to Hebrews to help them understand *why they no longer need the temple, the sacrifices, the holy days of obligation because Christ has fulfilled all*—not done away with it all, but fulfilled it all.
> .


 
Except that they still sacrificed in the Temple.  70 ad was when it was destroyed.  When the ark is located, the Temple will be rebuilt for the sacrifice...the red heiffer.  The Divine Presence is amongst us now in the eucharist, which is the continuation of the sacrifice as it happens daily somewhere in the world.  It was transformed.   Holy Days of Obligation...also existing...but transformed.  This should be another discussion, actually...what was transformed and how.  I'd like to expand upon it and see what you all think about it, learning new things myself.


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## aribell (Sep 23, 2009)

divya said:


> Here you share the interpretations held by first-day worshipers. However, _*where you believe that Jesus did away with all Old Testament law, many Sabbath-keepers believe that He fulfilled the ceremonial/sacrificial law*_. All of the 10 commandments are mentioned in the New Testament, extending their validity. On these issues, the two groups will always diverge doctrinally.


 
Actually, I specifically said that Jesus didn't do away with the law, but rather fulfilled it.  Also, the conversation wasn't about whether to obey the 4th commandment, but rather what that obedience entailed.  So, I don't see how that actually addresses the issues brought up in my post.  But at this point, I think all sides have been represented.  I think the more important point here is that we are actually thinking well about the Scriptures and relying on sound doctrine and interpretation to come to our conclusions.


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## aribell (Sep 23, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Except that they still sacrificed in the Temple. 70 ad was when it was destroyed. When the ark is located, the Temple will be rebuilt for the sacrifice...the red heiffer. The Divine Presence is amongst us now in the eucharist, which is the continuation of the sacrifice as it happens daily somewhere in the world. It was transformed. Holy Days of Obligation...also existing...but transformed. This should be another discussion, actually...what was transformed and how. I'd like to expand upon it and see what you all think about it, learning new things myself.


 
It seems that those days, sacrifices, etc. were optional for the Jewish Christians, like they are optional for Messianic Jews today.  The physical temple or ceremonial sacrifices weren't necessary to their life in Christ.


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## Shimmie (Sep 23, 2009)

divya said:


> Jesus and Joshua are not the same, in my belief...


 
  I understand, for this is your perception and how you were taught; and I respect your understanding and your feelings about this even more.  There's nothing in my heart that wants to challenge your faith and your devotion to it.  :Rose:

I will share what I've been taught, but still in respect, the utmost of you.  

In Bible college, we were taught the meanings of the names of Jesus and it was years of Greek, Hebrew, Latin (in minor studies), as well as Arabic.  We focused more on the Hebrew and Greek.    What I respected about our Pastor, is that he allowed teachers of various faiths to come to our Church and minister to us with 'their' knowlege; it's what they knew because they live it, it's their culture.   

This is only an example of how we were taught.  And I share this only to be a blessing, and not as a challenge or to try to 'change' what anyone believes.  

http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Joshua.html

*Meaning, origin and etymology of the name Joshua*

Joshua






The name Joshua occurs four times in the Bible. Most famous is the judge Joshua the* Ephraimite*, the successor of* Moses* and the one who leads* Israel* into the Promised Land. The original name of this Joshua is* Hosea* (
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




; Num 13:16) but Moses names him Joshua.

Other Joshuas are: the owner of a field in Beth-shemite where the Ark returns to Israel (1 Sam 6:14); A governor of* Jerusalem* (2 Kings 23:8); A high priest (Hag 1:1).

Joshua is also the original Hebrew form of the Greek name* Jesus*. A shortened form of Joshua (although not clear in English) is the name* Jeshua* (
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).

The name Joshua is a compilation of two elements. The first element is 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, which is the commonly accepted abbreviated form of 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, which is* YHWH*, the Name of the Lord.

The second part of the name comes from the verb 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (_yasha_ 929), be saved, delivered. Derivations 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (_yesha_ 929a) and 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (_yeshua_ 929b) both mean salvation. Derivation 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (_shoa_ 929c) indicates a 'free man,' meaning an independent person.

*BDB* lists 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 under 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and reads Yah Is Salvation. *NOBSE* reads Yahweh Is Salvation.

The name Joshua is the Hebrew form of the Greek name Jesus, and most probably the name by which Jesus was known by His contemporaries. 

Jesus was fascinated by the Book of* Isaiah*, probably mostly because this Book appears to be entirely about Him, but perhaps also because the name Isaiah (
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) is almost identical to the name Joshua with the two segments reversed.

Other names that are formed from the word 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 are *Elisha* and *Ishi*,

=================

Again, I'm just sharing what I've learned as a Bible and history student and as a Christian with the express desire to learn of God.  

Each of us have such a 'wealth' of knowledge of our faith.  I respect it all.  I just want to make this clear.  I truly respect each of you, no matter how/what we believe.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 23, 2009)

divya said:


> *I don't believe in that continuous role of Israel. *And as stated previously, since the Scriptures established the Sabbath before Israel, it isn't confined to them. I believe the the Scriptures are for all and salvation through believing on Jesus Christ is for all.



As a separate and distinct role according to G-d's plan...and this is where I input the "old" Testament...the Torah...and can I ask why out of curiosity?  Does the SDA (or any other church, for that matter) see itself as Israel?

Shemot/Exodus 31:

13 -'Speak thou also unto the *children of Israel,* saying: Verily ye shall keep My sabbaths, for i*t is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations,* that ye may know that I am HaShem who sanctify you.  14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore, for it is holy unto you; every one that profaneth it shall surely be put to death; for *whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. * 15 Six days shall work be done; but on the seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to HaShem; whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.  16 Wherefore* the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. * 17 It is a sign between Me and the* children of Israel for ever;* for in six days HaShem made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day He ceased from work and rested.' 


Even though salvation has been offered to all, christians are not the children of Israel.


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## blazingthru (Sep 24, 2009)

*Why doesn’t the NT explicitly teach the seventh-day Sabbath?
It does, actually, in Hebrews 4. There we find the seventh day specified in connection with Gospel rest.*

To see the context, go back a few verses to chapter 3, which recounts the fatal unbelief of those who failed to enter Canaan. Then comes a warning for Jewish Christians to avoid likewise falling short of gospel rest.  In this context of resting in God's salvation, the seventh day Sabbath is introduced: God's "works were finished from the foundation of the world" and He "rested on the seventh day from all His works" (4:3,4).  Then comes the sad history of Jewish failure to enter this Sabbath rest, which God had earned for them.  Even after Joshua finally led them into Canaan they were not yet into Sabbath rest.  Being external sabbatarians, the Jews did avoid business on the holy day.  But they were not true Sabbath keepers  they never entered the spirit of Sabbath rest. 

This passage, read carefully, clearly carries the seventh-day Sabbath into the Christian church.  Verse 8 mentions "another day" David introduced.  Another day besides what?  The Sabbath, of course; the passage is still discussing the seventh day rest.  Did David's day replace the Sabbath day?  On the contrary.  He made true Sabbath keeping possible by calling a time apart to repent and believe in God's salvation.  Did the Jews ever become true Sabbath keepers?  Unfortunately not:  "There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" (4:9).  And what Sabbath rest is this that remains for New Testament Christians?  "For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His" (4:10).  When did God rest from His works?  Verse 4 says: “God did rest the seventh day from all His works.”  

So there we have it. This seventh-day Sabbath, says the apostle, remains for us so we can celebrate gospel rest.

Keep in mind that Hebrews 4 has no hint that God would abolish His sacred day of rest.  The opposite is stated.  So why do even Adventists themselves often ignore this powerful New Testament proof of the Sabbath?  Because some of us doubt that the seventh day Sabbath is under discussion throughout the passage.  After all, how could the apostle be telling Heb¬rews that their nation never kept the Sabbath?  But this is exactly his point  the Jews, who strictly observed the day, ignored its meaning.  The apostle proves their need to begin true Sabbath keeping by reminding them of Canaan.  In David's day, three centuries after Joshua brought them in, they still had not entered the rest it represented.  Therefore they were mere sabbatarians, not Sabbath keepers. The call for spiritual rest on Sabbath, just like God Himself did rest—on the seventh day! This is the rest that remains for us.


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## blazingthru (Sep 24, 2009)

JinaRicci said:


> ^^ OT: Roti!! girl- what are u trying to do to me? LOL my favorite dish...
> 
> 
> Yep- only God can judge.


 
This is what I was thinking.  Roti!!


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## divya (Sep 24, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> Actually, I specifically said that Jesus didn't do away with the law, but rather fulfilled it.  Also, the conversation wasn't about whether to obey the 4th commandment, but rather what that obedience entailed.  So, I don't see how that actually addresses the issues brought up in my post.  But at this point, I think all sides have been represented.  I think the more important point here is that we are actually thinking well about the Scriptures and relying on sound doctrine and interpretation to come to our conclusions.



Thanks for clarifying your statement.   I completely agree, Jesus did state that He came to fulfill the law. The very next verse tells us when _all_ is fulfilled.

_"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."_ (Matthew 5:17-18)

Therefore, the law does not change until heaven and earth pass. This has not yet occurred, so based on that, my belief that we are to keep every jot/tittle of the law until then.

I can understand your perspective of the conversation. From a different perspective, the 4th commandment and the Scriptures give guidelines as to obedience. So in essence, the discussion is about whether to obey the 4th commandment and guidelines as provided or not, making it an issue of obedience.

Agree, it is wonderful to see us coming together to understand the Scriptures.


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## divya (Sep 24, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> I understand, for this is your perception and how you were taught; and I respect your understanding and your feelings about this even more.  There's nothing in my heart that wants to challenge your faith and your devotion to it.  :Rose:
> 
> I will share what I've been taught, but still in respect, the utmost of you.
> 
> ...



Thank you so much! This is interesting!  So in fact, the reference is still to Jesus! 

Maybe you missed the previous posts, but the explanation given by another post was that it was not a reference to Jesus at all, but to Joshua in the Land of Canaan. So it made no sense to me, that the KJV would use _Jesus_ and the NKJV would make reference to _Joshua, the successor of Moses_. 

Really appreciate you sharing!


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## divya (Sep 24, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> As a separate and distinct role according to G-d's plan...and this is where I input the "old" Testament...the Torah...and can I ask why out of curiosity?  Does the SDA (or any other church, for that matter) see itself as Israel?
> 
> Shemot/Exodus 31:
> 
> ...




My statement regarding the continuous role of Israel means that I do not believe in the role that is others often understand Israel as occupying today. 

I definitely do not dispute this Scripture, but nowhere does it confine the Sabbath to Israel alone. It does, however, implore them to keep the Sabbath - which it should. Just like Hebrews implores us all to keep the Sabbath.


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## divya (Sep 24, 2009)

blazingthru said:


> *Why doesn’t the NT explicitly teach the seventh-day Sabbath?
> It does, actually, in Hebrews 4. There we find the seventh day specified in connection with Gospel rest.*
> 
> To see the context, go back a few verses to chapter 3, which recounts the fatal unbelief of those who failed to enter Canaan. Then comes a warning for Jewish Christians to avoid likewise falling short of gospel rest.  In this context of resting in God's salvation, the seventh day Sabbath is introduced: God's "works were finished from the foundation of the world" and He "rested on the seventh day from all His works" (4:3,4).  Then comes the sad history of Jewish failure to enter this Sabbath rest, which God had earned for them.  Even after Joshua finally led them into Canaan they were not yet into Sabbath rest.  Being external sabbatarians, the Jews did avoid business on the holy day.  But they were not true Sabbath keepers  they never entered the spirit of Sabbath rest.
> ...



Wow! This is something else! 

Honestly, I don't know what to make of the change in language between the versions but this is a great explanation...


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 24, 2009)

divya said:


> My statement regarding the continuous role of Israel means that I do not believe in the role that is others often understand Israel as occupying today.
> 
> I definitely do not dispute this Scripture, but nowhere does it confine the Sabbath to Israel alone. It does, however, implore them to keep the Sabbath - which it should. Just like Hebrews implores us all to keep the Sabbath.




You mean the Saturday Sabbath, not the christian one...which might occur on Saturday or Sunday, right? I just cannot think of Shabbat as christian.  There is Sabbath rest...but Israel was definitely called to honor the Sabbath in a certain way that is not required of others.   I'm trying to comprehend why SDA apparently thinks it is Israel...for lack of a better way of asking.  Can you give me an url so I can read up on the philosophy of your church from the source...I don't like 2-3rd handed sources.  I'd rather respect and learn as it is being taught from that particular organization.  

So, do you mean that Israel misunderstands it's role?  I do believe all are called to a Sabbath.  I'm just disagreeing that christians have to honor it as the Jews because of their respective roles.  Does SDA believe in Replacement Theology?

For me, I think the difficulty is in attempting to understand just how non-Jews think they are Jewish christians, per se.  Hebrews was addressed to Jews.  Of course, gentiles entered into the faith and the issues surrounding their faith was taken up in the NT.  They were not required to convert to the Mosaic Covenant in order to be christians.  

We keep putting this term out there..."Jewish christians" but they were still Jews.  At some point, they were kicked out of the synagogues, making their new identity and becoming "christian" and no longer Jewish.  Unless someone gentile converted under the Mosaic Law back then and subsequently came to faith in Jesus, they were certainly still gentiles...not Jews.  One cannot become a Jew simply by honoring Shabbat.   So, I see these scriptures addressed  to Jews...not gentiles.  And this is the reason I'm asking if SDA believes in Replacement Theology...or anyone else's church, for that matter.

I keep editing as thought come...

But you make mention that the scriptures implore all to keep the Sabbath.  Noachides keep the Sabbath, but they are not Jews.  Maybe this will help you comprehend where I'm coming from.  Now, I realize it's going to contradict somewhat the christian observance of a day of rest...or even support it as part of the Abrahamic convenant now that the Messiah has come...and christians being grafted in are also called to teach others about the One True G-d.  I'm sorry this is so long...I'll try next time to cut these in half and separate the questions.

http://www.mesora.org/noachide-shabbos.html

On page 58b in Sanhedrin, the Talmud states, "A non Jew who rests on the Sabbath is punished with death, as it states (when Noach left the ark and sacrificed animals to God as thanks for his rescue, Gen. 8:21-22):

"And God smelled the pleasant scent, and God said in His heart, 'I will never again curse the earth for man's sake, for man's inclination is evil from youth, and I will never again smite all life as I have done. Furthermore, all the days of earth, planting and reaping, cold and hot, summer and winter, day and night shall not cease."

Rashi learns from this verse that God was not simply describing future solar and meteorological phenomena, but He was also commanding Noach and all mankind never to cease from planting and harvesting - not even for one day. Rashi states further that this prohibition regarding Noachides is not limited to the Jewish Sabbath, but also applies to a Jewish holiday which may fall out on a Sunday and even applies to a Noachide's proclaiming his day of rest - whether it is a Jewish day of rest or not. In short, any institutionalized day of rest is prohibited to a Noachide by this verse.

Cessation from such labor is a denial of God's mercy. Such heresy and denial is punishable with death. Noachides observing the Sabbath obscure the lesson that Torah stems from monotheists, i.e., those descendants of Abraham. While it is true that many gentiles may be monotheists, it is not true that all are. What is an absolute truth is the fact that ALL of Abraham's children partake of his monotheistic heritage. The role of "mankind's teachers" can only be filled by those with the divine directive inherited from the founder, and commanded by God at Sinai. This reputation must not be diluted by others filling such a role. It would obscure God's plan that descendants of a monotheist - Abraham - teach monotheism. As time progressed, and mankind regressed into paganism, God gave a select group of people the Torah. These were the descendants of a man who extricated himself from idolatry. With no teacher other than the world alone, he discovered monotheism. This is God's plan for man, that he relate to God. If one such as Abraham was able to do so, even being raised in an idolatrous culture, then God desired that Abraham be the one personality demonstrating the correct life for mankind. There could be no one better than Abraham to exemplify God's desired lifestyle. For this reason, God chose Abraham's adherents as the guardians of his philosophy. But guarding such an outlook, and Abraham's acts of reaching out to others - is not achieved without hours of pondering the universe. Such pondering requires time, and therefore Abraham's children are afforded this time in the form of the Sabbath. It is not favoritism towards the Jew that he rests on the Sabbath. Rather, it is God's separate consideration that the Jew be commanded in teaching the rest of the world which corrupted itself with pagan beliefs. In order to teach others, the Jew must have the knowledge. Thus, he is commanded that one day each week, his preoccupation with toiling for earthly sustenance must be interrupted.


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## divya (Sep 24, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> You mean the Saturday Sabbath, not the christian one...which might occur on Saturday or Sunday, right? I just cannot think of Shabbat as christian.  There is Sabbath rest...but Israel was definitely called to honor the Sabbath in a certain way that is not required of others.   I'm trying to comprehend why SDA apparently thinks it is Israel...for lack of a better way of asking.  Can you give me an url so I can read up on the philosophy of your church from the source...I don't like 2-3rd handed sources.  I'd rather respect and learn as it is being taught from that particular organization.
> 
> So, do you mean that Israel misunderstands it's role?  I do believe all are called to a Sabbath.  I'm just disagreeing that christians have to honor it as the Jews because of their respective roles.  Does SDA believe in Replacement Theology?
> 
> For me, I think the difficulty is in attempting to understand just how non-Jews think they are Jewish christians, per se.  Hebrews was addressed to Jews.  Of course, gentiles entered into the faith and the issues surrounding their faith was taken up in the NT.  They were not required to convert to the Mosaic Covenant in order to be christians.  We keep putting this term out there..."Jewish christians" but they were still Jews.  At some point, they were kicked out of the synagogues, making their new identity and becoming "christian" and no longer Jewish.  Unless someone gentile converted under the Mosaic Law back then and subsequently came to faith in Jesus, they were certainly still gentiles...not Jews.  One cannot become a Jew simply by honoring Shabbat.   So, I see these scriptures addressed  to Jews...not gentiles.  And this is the reason I'm asking if SDA believes in Replacement Theology...or anyone else's church, for that matter.



I respect your views, but there is only one Sabbath in the Scriptures. My faith holds to the verses below: 

Galatians 3:26-28 - _For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise_.

Matthew 5:17 -18 _"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."_ (Matthew 5:17-18)

Here are SDA sites that example the movements' beliefs:  http://www.adventist.org/


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 24, 2009)

Divya, the post was so long, I had to keep editing it...can you go back now and see where my questions are...esp. addressing the article from Mesora.org?  And thank you for the link.


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## divya (Sep 24, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> I keep editing as thought come...
> 
> But you make mention that the scriptures implore all to keep the Sabbath.  Noachides keep the Sabbath, but they are not Jews.  Maybe this will help you comprehend where I'm coming from.  Now, I realize it's going to contradict the christian observance of a day of rest...
> 
> ...



Respectfully... 

I comprehend your position. However, as a Christian, I  believe in the Scriptures, and if other writings do not coincide with the Scriptures, then they have no authoritative value on such matters.


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## aribell (Sep 24, 2009)

divya said:


> Thank you so much! This is interesting! So in fact, the reference is still to Jesus!
> 
> Maybe you missed the previous posts, but the explanation given by another post was that it was not a reference to Jesus at all, but to Joshua in the Land of Canaan. So it made no sense to me, that the KJV would use _Jesus_ and the NKJV would make reference to _Joshua, the successor of Moses_.
> 
> Really appreciate you sharing!


Hmmm...I don't think that is what that passage that Shimmie shared actually says.  It said that Jesus is the Greek form of the Hebrew name Joshua, and is also the name by which Jesus was likely called by his Hebrew contemporaries.  

That isn't to say that any passage speaking of Joshua of the OT is in reality a reference to Jesus.

Again, it's okay to disagree, but how we reason to reach our conclusions is nearly as important as the conclusions themselves.


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## divya (Sep 24, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> Hmmm...I don't think that is what that passage that Shimmie shared actually says.  It said that Jesus is the Greek form of the Hebrew name Joshua, and is also the name by which Jesus was likely called by his Hebrew contemporaries.
> 
> That isn't to say that any passage speaking of Joshua of the OT is in reality a reference to Jesus.
> 
> Again, it's okay to disagree, but how we reason to reach our conclusions is nearly as important as the conclusions themselves.



It seems like the only sensible explanation as to how how Jesus in the KJV was then translated to Joshua in the same passage. I welcome any other ideas though...


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 24, 2009)

divya said:


> Respectfully...
> 
> I comprehend your position. However, as a Christian, I  believe in the Scriptures, and if other writings do not coincide with the Scriptures, then they have no authoritative value on such matters.




It's Jewish...which I thought that the SDA read from...they take into consideration the Mosaic Laws.  This is their position on non-Jews under Noachide Law and I included it to further comprehend the SDA position of the Sabbath.  Is it because it's Talmud?  Okay, I respect that...hadn't expected that reaction...but I respect.  Well, that cuts the questioning right in half...I won't get an answer then concerning the specific issues.  I want to stress it was for discussion and comprehension of the SDA position.  As I said before, I oathe people's attempt to coerce and proselytize...which is something I just will not do.  So I hope you understand why I am questioning...to comprehend but I can only do that by bringing up certain issues I've wanted to know about.  I previously had no clue as to what SDA's beliefs were.  It's interesting, nonetheless.  But we can leave it at that.  G-d forbid you think I'm trying to suade you to one side...G-d forbid.


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## divya (Sep 24, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> It's Jewish...which I thought that the SDA read from...they take into consideration the Mosaic Laws.  This is their position on non-Jews under Noachide Law and I included it to further comprehend the SDA position of the Sabbath.  Is it because it's Talmud?  Okay, I respect that...hadn't expected that reaction...but I respect.  Well, that cuts the questioning right in half...I won't get an answer then concerning the specific issues.  I want to stress it was for discussion and comprehension of the SDA position.  As I said before, I oathe people's attempt to coerce and proselytize...which is something I just will not do.  So I hope you understand why I am questioning...to comprehend.  I previously had no clue as to what SDA's beliefs were.  It's interesting, nonetheless.  But we can leave it at that.  G-d forbid you think I'm trying to suade you to one side...G-d forbid.



Oh ok, I see. We don't uphold such laws, but rather only what comes from the Scriptures. That is not to say that one cannot read those passages at all or for any reason. I'm sure there are those who have studied them. However, as far as direction for living, the Holy Scriptures are the authority. It is interesting though...


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 24, 2009)

divya said:


> Oh ok, I see. We don't uphold such laws, but rather only what comes from the Scriptures. That is not to say that one cannot read those passages at all or for any reason. I'm sure there are those who have studied them. However, as far as direction for living, the Holy Scriptures are the authority. It is interesting though...




Sigh....we came so close for me to know exactly how the SDA philosophy came about.  Maybe it's on the website...I'll look through it.  But those are the questions I had...not to determine who had the authority...just to know how they came about.  I'm sorry, but an answer as "it's not in scripture, it's not authoritative" won't cut it for me.  Jesus studied under Rabbi Hillel...and you know He then studied Talmudic law or the oral tradition.  I'm disappointed really...  So all that Mosaic Law but no oral tradition?  I hope you understand because we are all at this point between Judaism and "christianity" with many variances.  I've got an idea ...but I'll have to go searching now through the Syrian church to provide the answer, I guess.  They are very Hebraic in tradition.


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## aribell (Sep 24, 2009)

divya said:


> It seems like the only sensible explanation as to how how Jesus in the KJV was then translated to Joshua in the same passage. I welcome any other ideas though...


 
Biblical translators often have to interpret things like that.  Not every word, phrase, sentence is clear cut in its meaning and there _are _mistakes in biblical translations.  It's not as if translating the Bible is a clear-cut A to B process.  Many wish that that were the case and rely on particular translations as if that were the case, but that is not so, which is why _every _translation out there goes through continuous revisions to come to a more accurate meaning of the text.  If they were already 100% accurate, they would never be revised.

If one name could be referring to two different people, more work has to be done to figure out which one the author is talking about.  So, why would the revisers of the KJV change it from "Jesus" to "Joshua"?  Because they realized that "Jesus" was an erroneous, or rather confusing, interpretation of that name and that the author was refering to Joshua of the OT and not Jesus of Nazareth.  

This isn't just reflected in one translation, but in many others as well as errors in the KJV have become more apparent.  This is also why the KJV is not used by biblical scholars, because subsequent manuscripts, study, etc. have shown it to not be the most accurate text to work from.


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## divya (Sep 24, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Sigh....we came so close for me to know exactly how the SDA philosophy came about.  Maybe it's on the website...I'll look through it.  But those are the questions I had...not to determine who had the authority...just to know how they came about.  I'm sorry, but an answer as "it's not in scripture, it's not authoritative" won't cut it for me.  Jesus studied under Rabbi Hillel...and you know He then studied Talmudic law or the oral tradition.  I'm disappointed really...  So all that Mosaic Law but no oral tradition?  I hope you understand.



It is sola scriptura on our end. Tradition is not regarded on the same level as the Scripture. For example, that's why the first day (sunday) is not regarded as a  "Christian Sabbath,"  only the seventh day.


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## divya (Sep 24, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> Biblical translators often have to interpret things like that.  Not every word, phrase, sentence is clear cut in its meaning and there _are _mistakes in biblical translations.  It's not as if translating the Bible is a clear-cut A to B process.  Many wish that that were the case and rely on particular translations as if that were the case, but that is not so, which is why _every _translation out there goes through continuous revisions to come to a more accurate meaning of the text.  If they were already 100% accurate, they would never be revised.
> 
> Why would the revisers of the KJV change it from "Jesus" to "Joshua"?  Because they realized that "Jesus" was an erroneous, or rather confusing, interpretation of that name and that the author was refering to Joshua of the OT.
> ut the
> This isn't just reflected in one translation, but in many others as well as errors in the KJV have become more apparent.  This is also why the KJV is not used by biblical scholars, because subsequent manuscripts, study, etc. have shown it to not be the most accurate text to work from.



Yes, I am aware of the job that translators have to do.  Human language is limited. However, which versions are used by Biblical scholar does depend on the particular scholar. Not sure that the Jesus/Joshua issue is as you claim though, because there are all kinds of conflicting views on that topic. Either way, it doesn't hamper the message of Hebrews 4 though. So it's fine...


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## Shimmie (Sep 24, 2009)

divya said:


> Thank you so much! This is interesting! So in fact, the reference is still to Jesus!
> 
> Maybe you missed the previous posts, but the explanation given by another post was that it was not a reference to Jesus at all, but to Joshua in the Land of Canaan. So it made no sense to me, that the KJV would use _Jesus_ and the NKJV would make reference to _Joshua, the successor of Moses_.
> 
> Really appreciate you sharing!


I appreciate you too.    Very much, indeed.

BTW:  My aunt (who tried to take me from my mom when I was a baby   - that's how cute I was )  --  Anyhoo,       My precious Auntie was Seventh Day Aventist and it's one of the reasons I learned so much about Jesus.   

As a child I actually followed two Sabbaths.   With our neighbor, we'd have Devotions every Friday at Sundown, go to Worship on Saturday (at _Berea Temple_ , in Maryland) and at Sundown on Saturday we'd have more Devotions.    On Sunday with my mother and grandmother, we'd have our Sunday worship in Church.    

When I had sleepovers at my best friend's for the weekend, we'd go to St. Mary's, because her family was Catholic and so was my Dad.   My Mom and Dad had a Catholic wedding ceremony.  

Precious people like you and my Aunt were given to me as a 'Gift' of Life to cherish forever.   God knew the path and journey of worship that I would be on.   Yet, He made sure that my most impressionable years of life, were spent learning about Him, came from hearts like you, my Auntie, and the people I will always treasure as Seventh Day Adventists.   My cousin, (my Auntie's daughter) bears the 'Mantle' of her Mom; she too is Seventh Day.      

No matter what day, we all love each other and we all love Jesus.   I 'understand' your Devotion to the Sabbath.   And I cherish it, because it's still a part of my life which I will always cherish.  

No matter what I may have said or have not said (this forum gets me in trouble at times), I honor your Faith for it is from God and your beautiful heart to please Him.     

Blessings :Rose:


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## divya (Sep 24, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> I appreciate you too.    Very much, indeed.
> 
> BTW:  My aunt (who tried to take me from my mom when I was a baby   - that's how cute I was )  --  Anyhoo,       My precious Auntie was Seventh Day Aventist and it's one of the reasons I learned so much about Jesus.
> 
> ...



Thank you Shimmie! I appreciate your sweet spirit and am glad you enjoyed your experience with the SDA faith. No matter where we may disagree, it is a blessing to have you and the ladies here as sisters in Christ. God bless you too. :Rose:

P.S. I have yet to make it to Berea but have heard good things!


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## aribell (Sep 24, 2009)

divya said:


> Yes, I am aware of the job that translators have to do. Human language is limited. However, which versions are used by Biblical scholar does depend on the particular scholar. Not sure that the Jesus/Joshua issue is as you claim though, because there are all kinds of conflicting views on that topic. Either way, it doesn't hamper the message of Hebrews 4 though. So it's fine...


 
Well, not exactly.  But I think the conversation could go on and on.  Underlying it is probably a difference in how to approach Scripture and the Christian tradition in general, which is a whole other thread.


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## Shimmie (Sep 24, 2009)

divya said:


> Thank you Shimmie! I appreciate your sweet spirit and am glad you enjoyed your experience with the SDA faith. No matter where we may disagree, it is a blessing to have you and the ladies here as sisters in Christ. God bless you too. :Rose:
> 
> P.S. I have yet to make it to Berea but have heard good things!


  I love you too, divya.    Berea is so warm and loving.    The messages are never conflicted between there and in my Church.  God has always confirmed His word in my heart with both Places of Worship.   I feel at 'Home' in both places.   

Divya, know this that God sees in you.   "You're Faithful."    Barring any and all opposition, 'You are Faithful'.    God rejoices in you.  You are Faithful.   :Rose:  

God wanted you to know this, because outside this thread, you may encounter some oppostion to what you hold dear in your Faith and God says, standfast, for you  are 'Faithful' and that's all He's expecting from you and nothing else.    

Here in this forum, we all love you, so what we say,  doesn't matter, because we're just sharing our hearts.   But there is someone else on the _outside_ who may challenge you with this.    And God says, He's well pleased with you.   You are Faithful.  :Rose:


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 24, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> Well, not exactly.  But I think the conversation could go on and on.  Underlying it is probably a difference in how to approach Scripture and the Christian tradition in general, which is a whole other thread.




I wish it had opened up more because everyone could have taken an 'aha' moment, realizing that exact point where we all go out separate ways.  It's not always so cut and dry.  I think discussion is good..for the soul and edifying because it sticks your own beliefs stronger to you. It's not that we look down upon one another...it's the beauty of knowing and respecting how we are all different and why.


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