# Women Pastors...



## dreamgurl (Apr 18, 2005)

There is and has been much debate about this particular subject matter but I would like to know from a woman's perspective what position you stand on this... 

Do you feel as though women should not preach or be a pastor of a Church? If so, might I ask where you may be pulling your reference from? TIA


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## Supergirl (Apr 18, 2005)

I think it's perfectly honorable for women to preach and to pastor.  Women were the very first evangelists in the Bible.  (those who went out proclaiming the Good News of Jesus' resurrection)


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## Poohbear (Apr 19, 2005)

I have leaned towards women shouldn't be allowed to preach if you take the Bible literally but *I'm really undecided because the Bible never flat out says "Women should not be allowed to preach period".*

Here is a scripture that _supposedly_ supports the "Women Should NOT be allowed to preach/pastor over a church or teach over a man."

Should Women be allowed to teach/preach in the church?
_1 Timothy 2:9-15_

_9Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, _
_10but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. _
_11A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. _
_12But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. _
_13For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. _
_14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. _
_15But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint. _

Commentary:

To understand these verses, we must understand the situation in which Paul and Timothy worked. In first-century Jewish culture, women were not allowed to study. When Paul said women should learn quietly and humbly, he was offering them an amazing opportunity. Paul did not want the Ephesian women to teach because they didn't yet have enough knowledge or experience. The Ephesian church had a particular problem with false teachers. *Evidently, the women were especially susceptible to their teaching because they did not yet have enough biblical knowledge to see through the false claims. In addition, some of the women were apparently flaunting their new-found Christian freedom by wearing inappropriate clothing. Paul was telling Timothy not to put anyone (in this case, women) into positions of leadership who were not yet mature in the faith. The same principles apples to churches today.*

*Some interpret this passage to mean that women should never teach in the assembled church.* However, other commentators say that Paul's words "I suffer not"(I never let) can be more literally translated "I am not allowing." *Paul did not forbid women from ever teaching men.* Paul's commended co-worker Priscilla taught Apollos, the great preacher. In addition, Paul frequently mentioned other women who held positions of responsibility in the church. Phebe worked in the church. Mary, Tryphena, and Tryphosa were the Lord's workers, as were Eudias and Synthche. *Paul was here prohibiting Ephesian women, but not all women, from teaching.*
As to women being silent in church meetings, the word _silence_ here is often translated "be in quietness", expressing an attitude of composure. In addition, Paul himself acknowledges that women publicly prayed and prophesied. Apparently, however, *the women in the Ephesian church were abusing their newly acquired Christian freedom. Because these women were new converts and uneducated, they did not yet have the necessary experience, knowledge, or maturity to teach those who already had extensive biblical education.*

From the passage and commentary, it seems like Paul was talking about uneducated, new-found Christian women were not allowed to teach, I think this could go for men as well in today's society.

Another verse...
Worship in an orderly way
1 Corinthians 14:26-40

Verses 34-35- _34The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. _

Commentary:
Does this mean that women should not speak in church services today? It is clear from 11:5 that women prayed and prophesied in public worship. It is also clear in chapters 12-14 that women have spiritual gifts, and they are encouraged to exercise them in the body of Christ. Women have much to contribute and can participate in worship services.
In the Corinth culture, women were not allowed to confront men in public. Apparently some of the women who had become Christians thought their Christian freedom gave them the right to question the men in public worship. This was cauing division in the church. In addition, women of that day did not receive formal religious education as did the men. Women may have been raising questions in the worship service which could have been answered at home without disputing the church service. Paul was asking the women not to flaunt their Christian freedom during the worship service. The purpose of Paul's words was to promote unity, not to teach about women's role in the church.

Another verse...
Standards for church leaders

1 Timothy 3:2 - _2An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, _

Most ministers against women preaching will use this verse to say *"How can a women be the husband of one wife?"*

So I'm undecided on this issue even though my denomination (Baptist/Southern Baptist) strongly oppose women preachers/pastors.

What are you ladies' thoughts on these passages and commentaries???


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## dreamgurl (Apr 19, 2005)

Supergirl said:
			
		

> I think it's perfectly honorable for women to preach and to pastor. *Women were the very first evangelists in the Bible*. (those who went out proclaiming the Good News of Jesus' resurrection)


 

Supergirl, 

That is a very interesting observation indeed and a good one as well. I've noticed when some people don't want to recognize female pastors or preachers. They refer to them as "evangelists" to replace calling the woman "pastor" or "teacher" to replace the word "preacher." 

Has anyone else noticed this as well?


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## melodee (Apr 19, 2005)

Yes, Joyce Meyer is often called (or calls herself sometimes) a teacher, but she does preach.


I, too, am undecided.  My family and church is dead set against it.  They feel that the bible instructs women not to serve as leader over man as it disrupts God's natural order.  There are no lady preachers or SS teachers in classes where men are enrolled.

But my problem is there are some women serving as leaders in my denomination, but they are called something other than preacher.  Like worship leader ( note still called leader).  But they are doing the same thing the male minister does.  So to me there is hypocrisy of sorts.


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## melodee (Apr 19, 2005)

Very good info/commentary Pooh!  I am going to take the time to study these verses.


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## Vintagecoilylocks (Apr 19, 2005)

I understand those scriptures to separate the teaching that is mentioned to and a authoritative position of teaching and being in charge.  My church has female sunday school teachers.  Readers  during service and lead the different prayers.  They lead the services of the hours and all woman can volunteer to do the closing prayers.  We can organize evanglism information and spread the word as anyone.  There are positions of authority that woman do not fill such as deacons, pastors, bishop etc.  These positions have the authority over people reference their life in the church.  The pastor has authority over whether someone can or cannot take communion for example, the bishop can deny a marriage or entry into the church, the pastor determines and instructs a new convert for entry into the church and decides when they are ready etc.  It does seem in the scriptures that it is the deciding factor as to whether there is a position of authority attached to the teaching or preaching.  
   Also since the church is mimicked after marriage and the man is deemed head of a woman and his household at home so the correlation in church remains in Christianity.  The verses that specifically discribe the qualifications of a pastor or bishop is unmistakenly speaking of the authority positions in the church and describing the biblical characteristics of a man and his role and responsibilities.  I believe that woman are vital to the church and have duties and responsibilities as woman that do not need to be deemed as not as important as the mens positions and roles.  We have our unique God given characteristics.   Who else but woman will fill these roles?  Let men do what they are to do.
   I understand that many people of today do not run their households quite on the biblical scale and view the bibles  teachings as demeaning to woman.  I do not believe they are, and the church should not succumb to secular views or allow its errosion into the running of a church.


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## sugaplum (Apr 19, 2005)

Poohbear
 
What are you ladies' thoughts on these passages and commentaries???[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> Thanks for posting the Bible scriptures Poohbear.
> 
> I never thought about this as an issue before untill now.  I've always noticed (from the churches I've been to and my home church) that the Pastor's have always been men.  IMO, based on what I just read, only men should be Pastor's.


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## blessedangil03 (Apr 19, 2005)

Personally, I do support women preachers but if a women is pastoring a church I believe that her husband should be in the ministry with her also. Kind of like he's the sr. pastor and she would be the co pastor.


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## JenJen2721 (Apr 19, 2005)

There are two pastors of my church...husband and wife.  However, my woman pastor does the majority of the sermons...I think because the majority of our congregation are women and also, I think she puts her sermons together and make them more engaging than her husband.  Her husband admits that she seems to be a better communicator than he is, so they have an understanding.  I just know for me, when I first stepped foot in my current church (as a visitor) and started listening to her, I was like "Wow!!!", I had never heard anyone present the word and have it make sense to me as much as it did when I heard her.  I had been visiting several churches trying to find the right one and she is the main reason I joined.  She was definitely doing God's work...no disputing that.


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## Poohbear (Apr 19, 2005)

Vintagecoilylocks said:
			
		

> I understand those scriptures to separate the teaching that is mentioned to and a authoritative position of teaching and being in charge. My church has female sunday school teachers. Readers during service and lead the different prayers. They lead the services of the hours and all woman can volunteer to do the closing prayers. We can organize evanglism information and spread the word as anyone. There are positions of authority that woman do not fill such as deacons, pastors, bishop etc. These positions have the authority over people reference their life in the church. The pastor has authority over whether someone can or cannot take communion for example, the bishop can deny a marriage or entry into the church, the pastor determines and instructs a new convert for entry into the church and decides when they are ready etc. It does seem in the scriptures that it is the deciding factor as to whether there is a position of authority attached to the teaching or preaching.
> Also since the church is mimicked after marriage and the man is deemed head of a woman and his household at home so the correlation in church remains in Christianity. The verses that specifically discribe the qualifications of a pastor or bishop is unmistakenly speaking of the authority positions in the church and describing the biblical characteristics of a man and his role and responsibilities. I believe that woman are vital to the church and have duties and responsibilities as woman that do not need to be deemed as not as important as the mens positions and roles. We have our unique God given characteristics. Who else but woman will fill these roles? Let men do what they are to do.
> I understand that many people of today do not run their households quite on the biblical scale and view the bibles teachings as demeaning to woman. I do not believe they are, and the church should not succumb to secular views or allow its errosion into the running of a church.


Good post! Thanks for sharing!!!

I'm a Sunday School teacher as well over 5-8 year old children. When I was discussing the issue of women preaching and teaching to my dad (who is a pastor), he said that I'm really not a teacher.  I was startled by that. Then he said that I'm really not a teacher because I'm not teaching over men. He's saying that only men can be real teachers and teach over men and women.

I've also heard of the correlation between the church and the marriage of a man and woman. Just like a man is over his wife, a man should be over the church since the church is the bride of Christ.


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## sithembile (Apr 19, 2005)

I agree with Vintage's view. At my church we only have male pastors, but we have women who teach sunday school, lead worship and hold other positions, but they don't have "authority" over men.


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## Honeyhips (Apr 19, 2005)

I thank God for the church I go to and the wisdom that is there. We have both male and female Pastors and Deacons.


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## ChosenbyGod (Apr 19, 2005)

I thank God for the church that I go to and the Holy Ghost power that is there; my Pastor is a male and *he* is the only pastor of our church. I thank God my Man of God does not put up "women pastors" in the pulpit. 

1 Timothy 2:12,14
But *I suffer not a woman to teach nor to usurp authority over the man*, but to be in silence.
And Adam was not deceived, but *the woman being deceived was in the transgression.*

btw, the pulpit is a place of authority.


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## Blossssom (Apr 19, 2005)

Uh oh...


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## Blossssom (Apr 19, 2005)

Supergirl said:
			
		

> I think it's perfectly honorable for women to preach and to pastor.  Women were the very first evangelists in the Bible.  (those who went out proclaiming the Good News of Jesus' resurrection)



I didn't realize pastors and evangelists were synonymous... *look*


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## Blossssom (Apr 19, 2005)

JenJen2721 said:
			
		

> There are two pastors of my church...husband and wife.  However, my woman pastor does the majority of the sermons...I think because the majority of our congregation are women and also, I think she puts her sermons together and make them more engaging than her husband.  Her husband admits that she seems to be a better communicator than he is, so they have an understanding.  I just know for me, when I first stepped foot in my current church (as a visitor) and started listening to her, I was like "Wow!!!", I had never heard anyone present the word and have it make sense to me as much as it did when I heard her.  I had been visiting several churches trying to find the right one and she is the main reason I joined.  She was definitely doing God's work...no disputing that.



I've never heard a woman preach before.  What's it like?

My dad is dead set against it too...


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## Blossssom (Apr 19, 2005)

sithembile said:
			
		

> I agree with Vintage's view. At my church we only have male pastors, but we have women who teach sunday school, lead worship and hold other positions, but they don't have "authority" over men.



That's what my radio minister teaches, too.  When men are present, women are to remain silent (this is Biblical), but they can teach a Sunday School class, granted no men are present, or teach other women and children, of course.


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## Blossssom (Apr 19, 2005)

ChosenbyGod said:
			
		

> I thank God for the church that I go to and the Holy Ghost power that is there; my Pastor is a male and *he* is the only pastor of our church. I thank God my Man of God does not put up "women pastors" in the pulpit.
> 
> 1 Timothy 2:12,14
> But *I suffer not a woman to teach nor to usurp authority over the man*, but to be in silence.
> ...



Has anyone besides me noticed that since women have usurped the "authority" of men, that society is in total CHAOS!?

In the game of Chess, each piece has its place.  Women have forgotten theirs.


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## ChosenbyGod (Apr 19, 2005)

Blossssom said:
			
		

> Has anyone besides me noticed that since women have usurped the "authority" of men, that society is in total CHAOS!?
> 
> In the game of Chess, each piece has its place.  Women have forgotten theirs.



*
You hit the nail on the head Blossssom, dead on the head.
CHAOS and CONFUSION and God is not the author of confusion.
*


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## ChosenbyGod (Apr 19, 2005)

Blossssom said:
			
		

> I didn't realize pastors and evangelists were synonymous... *look*





Evangelist:
This title is applied to Philip (Acts 21:8), who appears to have gone from city
to city preaching the word (8:4, 40). Judging from the case of Philip,
evangelists had neither the authority of an apostle, nor *the responsibility of pastoral supervision over a portion of the flock.*

Pastor:
This title applies to one who has *spiritual charge* over a person or group. 
Hebrews 13:17 - Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.   

A pastor and an evangelist are 2 different positions. They are not synonymous. A pastor can be an evangelist and vice versa but they are not the same.


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## Blossssom (Apr 19, 2005)

ChosenbyGod said:
			
		

> *
> You hit the nail on the head Blossssom, dead on the head.
> CHAOS and CONFUSION and God is not the author of confusion.
> *



Women cutting all their hair off and carrying on.  This world is in turmoil!


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## Honeyhips (Apr 19, 2005)

Is this directed towards me? 





			
				ChosenbyGod said:
			
		

> I thank God for the church that I go to and the Holy Ghost power that is there; my Pastor is a male and *he* is the only pastor of our church. I thank God my Man of God does not put up "women pastors" in the pulpit.
> 
> 1 Timothy 2:12,14
> But *I suffer not a woman to teach nor to usurp authority over the man*, but to be in silence.
> ...


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## Poohbear (Apr 19, 2005)

Blossssom said:
			
		

> I didn't realize pastors and evangelists were synonymous... *look*


I was thinking the same thing... pastors and evangelist are quite different... anyone can be evangelists...

I think I have made a decision on this issue... I'm going to stick with men can only be pastors and preachers.


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## Honeyhips (Apr 19, 2005)

The world is in Chaos b/c of sin. 



			
				Blossssom said:
			
		

> Has anyone besides me noticed that since women have usurped the "authority" of men, that society is in total CHAOS!?
> 
> In the game of Chess, each piece has its place. Women have forgotten theirs.


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## Poohbear (Apr 19, 2005)

Honeyhips said:
			
		

> The world is in Chaos b/c of sin.


...which in turn brought on the uprise of women preaching...


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## Blossssom (Apr 19, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> ...which in turn brought on the uprise of women preaching...



Thank you.

Thread closed.


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## Honeyhips (Apr 19, 2005)

Like you have that authority.   I think women taking power from men has caused a problem, but I don't think preaching in the pulpit is the same. 



			
				Blossssom said:
			
		

> Thank you.
> 
> Thread closed.


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## Honeyhips (Apr 19, 2005)

I totally disagree. 





			
				Poohbear said:
			
		

> ...which in turn brought on the uprise of women preaching...


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## Blossssom (Apr 19, 2005)

Honeyhips said:
			
		

> Like you have that authority.   I think women taking power from men has caused a problem, but I don't think preaching in the pulpit is the same.



Heehee!


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## Blossssom (Apr 19, 2005)

Honeyhips said:
			
		

> I totally disagree.



Now, I don't want people who have been getting along famously to start falling out over this.

We are all entitled to our opinions and if you can't agree, at least agree to disagree.

No fighting


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## Shayla (Apr 19, 2005)

my aunt founded her church...she is the pastor...the church has really grown and is now one of the biggest churches in the city...

everyone has their own beliefs, but i don't see anything wrong with women being a pastor, evangelist, etc as long as they're preaching the right things...

there are plenty of men that are church leaders that are fornicating, messing w/ kids, stealing money, and everything else...so just because the pastor is a man doesn't mean that he's one of "the chosen ones"...just something to think about.



also a question...those of you that are not in favor of women pastors, deacons, etc...do you prefer not to listen to juanita bynum, paula white, joyce meyer, etc?


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## Shayla (Apr 19, 2005)

Blossssom said:
			
		

> Women cutting all their hair off and carrying on.  This world is in turmoil!




 girl you're a trip...lol


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## dreamgurl (Apr 19, 2005)

Blossssom said:
			
		

> Uh oh...


 

I know why you said that   sshhh!


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## Blossssom (Apr 19, 2005)

dreamgurl said:
			
		

> I know why you said that   sshhh!



Heehee!

I do agree with part of what Shayla said, though, and I've even said as much to my parents.

With all the "hypocrisy" spewing from the pulpit nowadays with our male pastors (coffer raiding/womanizing), who's to say that God isn't calling women to take over?

I try to stick with "The Book", though


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## JenJen2721 (Apr 19, 2005)

Blossssom said:
			
		

> I've never heard a woman preach before.  What's it like?
> 
> My dad is dead set against it too...



It's like being in a classroom with a really good teacher. We always take notes and everything.


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## Honeyhips (Apr 19, 2005)

Blossom give it a rest. Where was I fighting. I could have easily pulled out scripture upon scripture that showed wehre women were pastors and taught in the church, right in the bible. I could have pulled up plenty of articles agreeing with me. I did no such thing, I did not argue, I was not being catty. Which is more than what I can say for your post.  This one and the "uh oh" are two that I could consider YOU trying to stir the pot, and cause drama. So don't get on your high horse NOW.  The ladies have been arguing in here since day one, there have been plenty of threads started with hidden agendas. So lets not act like people haven't argued before. 





			
				Blossssom said:
			
		

> Now, I don't want people who have been getting along famously to start falling out over this.
> 
> We are all entitled to our opinions and if you can't agree, at least agree to disagree.
> 
> No fighting


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## miracle (Apr 19, 2005)

Shayla said:
			
		

> my aunt founded her church...she is the pastor...the church has really grown and is now one of the biggest churches in the city...
> 
> *everyone has their own beliefs, but i don't see anything wrong with women being a pastor, evangelist, etc as long as they're preaching the right things...*
> 
> ...



_*ITA!!!!!!!*_


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## JenJen2721 (Apr 19, 2005)

Shayla said:
			
		

> also a question...those of you that are not in favor of women pastors, deacons, etc...do you prefer not to listen to juanita bynum, paula white, joyce meyer, etc?



I'm in favor of women pastors, but I just wanted to comment that although I'm not a huge fan of Juanita Bynum, her "No More Sheets" sermon touched women in a way that a man would not have been able to do.  Also, Joyce Meyer has a way of "teaching" that speaks to women like no man can also, and she acknowledges that it's her husband that's in charge and gives her his blessing to teach as she does.


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## miracle (Apr 19, 2005)

JenJen2721 said:
			
		

> I'm in favor of women pastors, but I just wanted to comment that although I'm not a huge fan of Juanita Bynum, her *"No More Sheets" sermon touched women in a way that a man would not have been able to do. * Also, Joyce Meyer has a way of "teaching" that speaks to women like no man can also, and she acknowledges that it's her husband that's in charge and gives her his blessing to teach as she does.



*ITA with this, too!!!!  "No More Sheets" is awesome!!!  *


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## Blossssom (Apr 19, 2005)

JenJen2721 said:
			
		

> It's like being in a classroom with a really good teacher. We always take notes and everything.



So it's like a lecture then?  That's what I thought.  

I've always noticed that the "preaching" of a white minister and that of a black minister are like night and day.

I imagined a woman's preaching would be more like a white man's 

Real somber... compared to black ministers!  LOL!


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## Blossssom (Apr 19, 2005)

Honeyhips said:
			
		

> Blossom give it a rest. Where was I fighting. I could have easily pulled out scripture upon scripture that showed wehre women were pastors and taught in the church, right in the bible. I could have pulled up plenty of articles agreeing with me. I did no such thing, I did not argue, I was not being catty. Which is more than what I can say for your post.  This one and the "uh oh" are two that I could consider YOU trying to stir the pot, and cause drama. So don't get on your high horse NOW.  The ladies have been arguing in here since day one, there have been plenty of threads started with hidden agendas. So lets not act like people haven't argued before.



I posted that in general because on other threads, people who were the best of posters turned on each other when they didn't agree.

Your post just happened to be the last post that I read, and I posted the "disclaimer" there.

It wasn't for you personally...


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## Honeyhips (Apr 19, 2005)

I missunderstood. Sorry Blossom!


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## miracle (Apr 19, 2005)

Blossssom said:
			
		

> Has anyone besides me noticed that since women have usurped the "authority" of men, that society is in total CHAOS!?
> 
> In the game of Chess, each piece has its place.  Women have forgotten theirs.



*Wow.  Just.....wow.  *


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## Poohbear (Apr 20, 2005)

Honeyhips said:
			
		

> I totally disagree.


Like ChosenbyGod said... God is not the author of confusion. Women preaching is causing confusion in churches today. Why do you think it's such a big problem??? Please don't tell me how men aren't stepping up to the plate these days, I've heard it all.


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## Poohbear (Apr 20, 2005)

Shayla said:
			
		

> there are plenty of men that are church leaders that are fornicating, messing w/ kids, stealing money, and everything else...so just because the pastor is a man doesn't mean that he's one of "the chosen ones"...just something to think about.


This is true too.  But the ladies in favor of only men preaching aren't saying every man can preach.  Not all men aren't meant to be pastors/preachers. The man must be called by God... not preach because he wants to or for other motives.


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## Honeyhips (Apr 20, 2005)

Don't put words in my mouth Pooh. How is having a women preaching in church causing confusion? I just disagree w/ how people are interpeting the verses in Timothy. I don't think God intended for those verses to shut women down in the Church.  





			
				Poohbear said:
			
		

> Like ChosenbyGod said... God is not the author of confusion. Women preaching is causing confusion in churches today. Why do you think it's such a big problem??? *Please don't tell me how men aren't stepping up to the plate these days, I've heard it all*.


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## Blossssom (Apr 20, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> Like ChosenbyGod said... God is not the author of confusion. Women preaching is causing confusion in churches today. Why do you think it's such a big problem??? Please don't tell me how men aren't stepping up to the plate these days, I've heard it all.



Humpf!  

I agree!


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## Poohbear (Apr 20, 2005)

Honeyhips said:
			
		

> Don't put words in my mouth Pooh. How is having a women preaching in church causing confusion? I just disagree w/ how people are interpeting the verses in Timothy. I don't think God intended for those verses to shut women down in the Church.


Oh okay... but wasn't putting words in your mouth.  That was just in case someone else wanted to reply to what I said.


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## Blossssom (Apr 20, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> This is true too.  But the ladies in favor of only men preaching aren't saying every man can preach.  Not all men aren't meant to be pastors/preachers. The man must be called by God... not preach because he wants to or for other motives.



This is MORE than true!

God, I love you!  LOL!  

There are a lot of "self-called" ministers out there (ching, ching, ching is usually the #1 motivator).  And even if a minister is called by God, that doesn't mean he is Pastor material.


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## Blossssom (Apr 20, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> Oh okay... but wasn't putting words in your mouth.  That was just in case someone else wanted to reply to what I said.



What's always weird to me is how people try and TSIWT the Bible.  No, the Bible isn't 100% clear, but the scriptures in Timothy are QUITE clear to me.

Women just want the upperhand on men nowadays, and they have lived to regret it.  Inside and outside of the church *sniff*

I guess that is why we have so many different denominations.  People and their "interpretations".  So be it.

I'm waiting for the day when Christians come up with Orthodox and un-Orthodox, like the Jews have.

You'll really be able to distinguish the true Christians from the false then!


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## Honeyhips (Apr 20, 2005)

A woman preaching is NOT the same as having authority over men. It does not mean she has a desire to have the upperhand. The two don't always go together, just like it doesn't make sense that the reason why you need a female preacher is because the men are not doing their jobs. 

I'm not interpreting the Timothy and Corinthians scriptures wrong when I say that I don't think they are meant to shut down EVERY woman in the church. Just the ones that had no reverance for God or the church and felt they could dress and act anyway they wanted. He is not addressing the women in ministry who are serving God.


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## JenJen2721 (Apr 20, 2005)

Blossssom said:
			
		

> So it's like a lecture then?  That's what I thought.
> 
> I've always noticed that the "preaching" of a white minister and that of a black minister are like night and day.
> 
> ...



You're funny, Blossom!!! If you ever come to St. Louis, you'll have to stop by...so you can be like, "Wow"!!!  That girl is good!!! That's what it's like after listening to my pastor...   She doesn't jump up and down and holler and sweat, but she is far from somber.


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## Blossssom (Apr 20, 2005)

JenJen2721 said:
			
		

> You're funny, Blossom!!! If you ever come to St. Louis, you'll have to stop by...so you can be like, "Wow"!!!  That girl is good!!! That's what it's like after listening to my pastor...   She doesn't jump up and down and holler and sweat, but she is far from somber.



Yea... 

Funny because one time my dad had a white minister "preach" at our church, and I couldn't believe the difference.

The white minister just stood there and talked normally.  Between me and you (don't tell dad), though, I got more out of his sermon because I wasn't distracted by the "jumping up and down, hollering and sweating"


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## onepraying (Apr 20, 2005)

Blossssom said:
			
		

> So it's like a lecture then?  That's what I thought.
> 
> *I've always noticed that the "preaching" of a white minister and that of a black minister are like night and day.*
> 
> ...



Not in the Apostolic church!...


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## onepraying (Apr 20, 2005)

Honeyhips said:
			
		

> A woman preaching is NOT the same as having authority over men. It does not mean she has a desire to have the upperhand. The two don't always go together, just like it doesn't make sense that the reason why you need a female preacher is because the men are not doing their jobs.
> 
> I'm not interpreting the Timothy and Corinthians scriptures wrong when I say that I don't think they are meant to shut down EVERY woman in the church. Just the ones that had no reverance for God or the church and felt they could dress and act anyway they wanted. He is not addressing the women in ministry who are serving God.




Well, let's see....

The man of God is our sheperd; our guide.  He is the very mouthpiece of God...agree?

He gets up, declares..."thus saith the Lord"  Sets order, rebukes, corrects, reproves....agree?...  

This is considered authority......what the Bible clearly says a woman must not do.  She can't stand behind the sacred desk and declare these things..it is out of order.  

In our local assembly, the ladies teach children's Sunday School, we also teach Bible Studies(sometimes to men) but never behind the sacred desk.  

You mentioned in an earlier post that you could pull scripture after scripture of women Pastors and ministers, etc..  Can you take a minute to do that for me?  

I have been wanting to study this for a very long time and you ladies have provided me with a slew of info.  Thank you soo much  

I really like this board!!

Keep posting!


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## Blossssom (Apr 20, 2005)

OnePraying:  BEAUTIFUL!


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## Bublnbrnsuga (Apr 20, 2005)

I really think we need to look at what was going on at the time when Paul advised women not to say anything in the church. At THAT time, the women were being disruptive, etc, so it was advised for them to keep their comments/questions to themselves, then ask their husbands questions. God did not forbid a woman to minister. I can't believe that women actually agree with that archaeic teaching.

What's next? You gonna tell me that women should not wear anything that pertains to a man, ie pants? Well, if so, take off your PANTIES, because they are shorter versions of pants,lol. We really need to STUDY the Word,by asking what,why,when, who and how.

Peace!


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## miracle (Apr 20, 2005)

Bublnbrnsuga said:
			
		

> I really think we need to look at what was going on at the time when Paul advised women not to say anything in the church. At THAT time, the women were being disruptive, etc, so it was advised for them to keep their comments/questions to themselves, then ask their husbands questions. God did not forbid a woman to minister. I can't believe that women actually agree with that archaeic teaching.
> 
> What's next? You gonna tell me that women should not wear anything that pertains to a man, ie pants? Well, if so, take off your PANTIES, because they are shorter versions of pants,lol. *We really need to STUDY the Word,by asking what,why,when, who and how.*
> 
> Peace!


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## Honeyhips (Apr 20, 2005)

Thank you... That's what I was trying to say. 





			
				Bublnbrnsuga said:
			
		

> *I really think we need to look at what was going on at the time when Paul advised women not to say anything in the church*. At THAT time, the women were being disruptive, etc, so it was advised for them to keep their comments/questions to themselves, then ask their husbands questions. God did not forbid a woman to minister. I can't believe that women actually agree with that archaeic teaching.
> 
> What's next? You gonna tell me that women should not wear anything that pertains to a man, ie pants? Well, if so, take off your PANTIES, because they are shorter versions of pants,lol. We really need to STUDY the Word,by asking what,why,when, who and how.
> 
> Peace!


----------



## Honeyhips (Apr 20, 2005)

onepraying said:
			
		

> Well, let's see....
> 
> The man of God is our sheperd; our guide. He is the very mouthpiece of God...agree?
> 
> ...


At this point no. Ask God to show you. I don't think it will add anything b/c people are already dead set in their own frame of mind and I don't want to get into I'm right your wrong debate which is why what I've said so far has been limited. It won't be a healthy discussion. When I get back I will pm you some women to study.


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## sithembile (Apr 20, 2005)

Onepraying, I like your interpretation!

In controversial matters in the Bible such as this one, I sometimes choose to take the more conservative view, because its better to be safe than sorry when it comes to following the word of God, imho.


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## Poohbear (Apr 20, 2005)

sithembile said:
			
		

> Onepraying, I like your interpretation!
> 
> In controversial matters in the Bible such as this one, I sometimes choose to take the more conservative view, because its better to be safe than sorry when it comes to following the word of God, imho.


I'm pretty conservative myself.  When you get too liberal, it opens doors to beliefs against the word of God.


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## Honeyhips (Apr 20, 2005)

Being too conservative also opens up the door for legalism and that will stifle the move of God.


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## Poohbear (Apr 20, 2005)

onepraying said:
			
		

> You mentioned in an earlier post that you could pull scripture after scripture of women Pastors and ministers, etc..* Can you take a minute to do that for me?*





			
				Honeyhips said:
			
		

> At this point no. Ask God to show you. I don't think it will add anything b/c people are already dead set in their own frame of mind and I don't want to get into I'm right your wrong debate which is why what I've said so far has been limited. It won't be a healthy discussion. When I get back I will pm you some women to study.


You know why you can not list any women pastors/preachers in the Bible? Because there were no women pastors/preachers!!!

I listed a few women who either taught and evangelized, or served in leadership positions in the church in a previous post: "Paul's commended co-worker Priscilla taught Apollos, the great preacher. In addition, Paul frequently mentioned other women who held positions of responsibility in the church. Phebe worked in the church. Mary, Tryphena, and Tryphosa were the Lord's workers, as were Eudias and Synthche." Priscilla, Mary, Tryphena, Typhosa, Eudias, and Synthche were NOT women preachers.

There was even women disciples (defined as a follower of Jesus) mentioned in the book of Luke 8:1-3 but they were not preachers nor pastors. They just proclaimed and brought the good news of the kingdom of God with the 12 disciples: Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Susanna, and many others.


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## Poohbear (Apr 20, 2005)

Honeyhips said:
			
		

> Being too conservative also opens up the door for legalism and that will stifle the move of God.


*Legalism restricts free choice/will... it will not stifle the move of God because God is OMNIPOTENT.  I don't believe in free will... only God's will.  Yes! we make our own decisions/choices in life, but we can do NOTHING without God for God is the one who is in total control. I also believe in the COMPLETE sovereignty of God.*


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## sithembile (Apr 20, 2005)

Honeyhips said:
			
		

> Being too conservative also opens up the door for legalism and that will stifle the move of God.



This is true, but I'm not trying to impose my interpretation on others, the Spirit is just leading me to take a conservative view on this topic. To be honest, I'm not sure which is  God's view here, so I'm just saying for me, when in doubt, leave it out.


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## Honeyhips (Apr 20, 2005)

and where did I say that I did not believe in the svereignty of God. It doesn't matter if you believe in free will or not. GOD gives it to us. Legalism does not stifle free will, it CAN and most likely DOES stifle the holy spirit. If people are not open to receive him. But I'm seriously down with this b/c now I'm justifying myself and God is just, he will do it. I don't have to prove anything. 

But PM if you want a good scripture on legalism and how they were trying to stifle Jesus. 





			
				Poohbear said:
			
		

> *Legalism restricts free choice/will... it will not stifle the move of God because God is OMNIPOTENT. I don't believe in free will... only God's will. Yes! we make our own decisions/choices in life, but we can do NOTHING without God for God is the one who is in total control. I also believe in the COMPLETE sovereignty of God.*


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## Poohbear (Apr 20, 2005)

Honeyhips said:
			
		

> and where did I say that I did not believe in the svereignty of God. It doesn't matter if you believe in free will or not. GOD gives it to us. Legalism does not stifle free will, it CAN and most likely DOES stifle the holy spirit. If people are not open to receive him. But I'm seriously down with this b/c now I'm justifying myself and God is just, he will do it. I don't have to prove anything.
> 
> But PM if you want a good scripture on legalism and how they were trying to stifle Jesus.


I didn't say you didnt believe in the sovereignty of God. I'm just saying for myself that I believe in the complete sovereignty of God that he is in total control and that there is only one will which is God's will.


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## InsertCleverNameHere (Apr 21, 2005)

Shayla said:
			
		

> my aunt founded her church...she is the pastor...the church has really grown and is now one of the biggest churches in the city...
> 
> everyone has their own beliefs, but i don't see anything wrong with women being a pastor, evangelist, etc as long as they're preaching the right things...
> 
> ...


 
Ditto!

I have grown up around women pastor's and preachers my whole life. My ma is an ordained minister and has preached and teached many times in the pulpit. Not only that but the church where she started preaching had a woman pastor. My SO's granny is the pastor of his/their church and the church he goes to in TN is also led by a woman. I am super familiar with women preachers and pastors. I never thought it was even anything that was debated except for in a couple of denominations.

So what do you all think of the women pastor's themselves? All the women preachers I know of speak of being "called" to the ministry. Are you all saying they are not hearing from God? Are their prayers about going in the ministry supposedly being answered by Satan or something? Do you all believe they are committing a sin?

I also agree that people should look at the context.


----------



## onepraying (Apr 21, 2005)

Bublnbrnsuga said:
			
		

> I really think we need to look at what was going on at the time when Paul advised women not to say anything in the church. At THAT time, the women were being disruptive, etc, so it was advised for them to keep their comments/questions to themselves, then ask their husbands questions. God did not forbid a woman to minister. I can't believe that women actually agree with that archaeic teaching.
> 
> What's next? You gonna tell me that women should not wear anything that pertains to a man, ie pants? *Well, if so, take off your PANTIES, because they are shorter versions of pants,lol.* We really need to STUDY the Word,by asking what,why,when, who and how.
> 
> Peace!



Great debate!  

You are funny...   ...those are _under_clothing.  They are different though, aren't they.  If a man put on women's panties then he's weird, right?   Men and women were always different.  God made us that way.  If there were not words and just pictures on a bathroom door, how would you tell which is the men's which is the women's?  What would you see?

I posted this before, the Bible is our guide not a story book.  If the women were getting out of hand/place then what do you think would happen today?  Human nature hasn't changed.  We can't say, "That's for them."  It isn't right.  Those things are written for our sakes....there is nothing new under the sun.

The Bible is clear about usurping authority.  It just is....there is no getting around it....


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## dreamgurl (Apr 21, 2005)

ReaLuvsAOxymoron said:
			
		

> So what do you all think of the women pastor's themselves? All the women preachers I know of speak of being "called" to the ministry. Are you all saying they are not hearing from God? Are their prayers about going in the ministry supposedly being answered by Satan or something? Do you all believe they are committing a sin?


 

Great questions. RLAO


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## JenJen2721 (Apr 21, 2005)

onepraying said:
			
		

> The Bible is clear about usurping authority.  It just is....there is no getting around it....



Are women pastors usurping authority if their husbands have given them the go ahead to teach in church?  Isn't that the wife submitting to her husband as the bible has instructed her to do?


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## Vintagecoilylocks (Apr 21, 2005)

A few ladies mentioned how they have woman pastors or know some.  This how ever is not the standard to follow.  Many things go on in our world that is not aligned with scripture.  No matter how great  we think something is or how well it works we are not the creator to even have a clue as to what is truelly right except but what he says.  We were given the word.  According to 1 Timothy I do not see how any one can say this is confusing.  The language is clear and concise.  It has nothing to do with some particular group of woman at a particular church being disruptive.  How ever if woman were demanding things out side of the teachings no matter how right they may felt them to be this would also be disrupting.  Even today.

   Many people say they were called by God.  Or they prayed and God said to do something.  If the result is one that is against his original teachings then it could never be from him.  And maybe its not from satan either.  Its simply from our own selves.    

   I have to ask why some woman feel they are being "shut out"  just because a certain teachings dirct others or men to a particular position?  Have they done all they can in the positions God did give them?  Also why the need to start all these "new churches"?    It's rebellion and a refusal to submit.  NOt my will but thine will be done.

    Remember Christ said "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in Heaven.  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful things? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you;depart from me, ye that work iniquity.  Mathew 7:21-23.  A few verses later it says that the people were astonished by his doctrine.  "For he taught as one having authority, and not as the scribes."  Mt 7:29.  This even shows there is a difference in preaching and teaching and then having authority to command and lead.  

   It also shows that many will be out there saying they are doing as the Lord told them but it will not be so.  We can not act opposing to his teachings then say he told us to do something.  We are only listening to our selves.  

   Woman are far from shut out.  If they only few men's positions as worthy they will create what ever justification to seek those things.  And this idea of asking for a sign.  The teachings are there.  we must accept them.  He already gave us all the signs and wonders we need.  There is a passage about people who will still be seeking after signs and wonders and new teachings.  They are lost. " A wicked and adulterous generations seekth after a sign."  He would tell them then they would say" give us a sign"  

    Jesus has spoke and appointed his apostles.  They have taught as he instructed and acted.  How can so much be unclear?  To many want the scriptures to fit them rather then conforming to fit the scriptures.  They learn from the world then want the teachings of Christ to change to meet that standard.  It won't change and will never work for you if you try to manipulate it to fit the worlds and your own feelings and understanding.  I hear people always saying they are shopping around for a church.  Is there so much difference in the teachings?  And why are they different?  They have their feelings about this and that then say the scriptures are unclear.  

     As stated before God is not a God of confusion.  In the bible we see people who would not accept the Lord's teachings and went their own way. There were those who rejected the apostles teaching and started their own form of following Christ.  

    "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away they ears from the truth, and shall be turned into fables."  11Tim 3:4.


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## Vintagecoilylocks (Apr 21, 2005)

JenJen2721,

   I do not believe getting permission from someone in error is gives you leway to commit the wrong.  
    We are to submit our selves one to another.  Husbands should not be giving permission in something contrary to biblical teachings.  If he is submitted unto Christ he will direct his household in the teachings of Christ not his own.


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## Poohbear (Apr 21, 2005)

JenJen2721 said:
			
		

> Are women pastors usurping authority if their husbands have given them the go ahead to teach in church? Isn't that the wife submitting to her husband as the bible has instructed her to do?


Not everything your husband tells you to do isn't always right.  But when the Bible talks about submission, it's actually talking about submitting to decisions made and acknowledging that the husband is the head of household. God also gives wisdom to wives as far as knowing right from wrong in a decision.  For example (off topic): God says obey your parents.  What if your dad told you to go steal some food for the family.  Is the child suppose to do it? No.  I know that is a totally different subject but I'm trying to make a point that not everything your husband allows you to do is right.


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## onepraying (Apr 21, 2005)

Vintagecoilylocks said:
			
		

> A few ladies mentioned how they have woman pastors or know some.  This how ever is not the standard to follow.  Many things go on in our world that is not aligned with scripture.  No matter how great  we think something is or how well it works we are not the creator to even have a clue as to what is truelly right except but what he says.  We were given the word.  According to 1 Timothy I do not see how any one can say this is confusing.  The language is clear and concise.  It has nothing to do with some particular group of woman at a particular church being disruptive.  How ever if woman were demanding things out side of the teachings no matter how right they may felt them to be this would also be disrupting.  Even today.
> 
> Many people say they were called by God.  Or they prayed and God said to do something.  If the result is one that is against his original teachings then it could never be from him.  And maybe its not from satan either.  Its simply from our own selves.
> 
> ...




Well said....


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## InsertCleverNameHere (Apr 21, 2005)

Well I do feel shut out. I feel more and more alienated by the church everyday. I have to just start accepting that my interpretations are different. People pick and choose what they feel is important to follow in the Bible. Just like going to church on a Sunday. The Sabbath isn't Sunday, right? People in general only accept literal biblical meanings when they want to. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!


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## MomofThreeBoys (Apr 21, 2005)

Hi Reluvs!  Don't feel shut out sister girll!!! 

Even the disciples argued and had differences. The key is to be surrendered and to pray for discernment.  

I don't believe in multiple truths. Jesus is the same yesterday today and tomorrow and so is His Word.

God has a standard BUT Light is not given to us all once.  It is progressive. This is what Jesus did with his disciples.  As he felt they were ready, He revealed more and more to them.  So just b/c you are convicted, that doesn't mean God has revealed that light to someone else.  

The Holy Spirit may be working on us in one area while we are still in the dark about another area.

That is why its so important that we live according to God's will.  By your attitude, demeanor, and life, God could be trying to use YOU to reveal new light to someone else.

I pray all of us here who are passionate about our positions do so not because of what we have been told by a pastor or by relatives or anyone else. Or b/c it would be painful to admit our position is in error.  But I hope are passion is b/c we have thoroughly studied the scriptures for ourselves.  We must test everything we do and believe against God's Word. 

The importance of daily worship and communion with God has never been greater. We must ALWAYS be studying God's word and be open receiving new light from the Holy Spirit. 

Be blessed!
*2 Timothy 3:15-17 (New International Version)*

15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is Godbreathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness
 



			
				ReaLuvsAOxymoron said:
			
		

> Well I do feel shut out. I feel more and more alienated by the church everyday. I have to just start accepting that my interpretations are different. People pick and choose what they feel is important to follow in the Bible. Just like going to church on a Sunday. The Sabbath isn't Sunday, right? People in general only accept literal biblical meanings when they want to. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!


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## Honeyhips (Apr 21, 2005)

I'm going to send you a pm of why and how people are interpreting this women shouldn't be Pastors wrong and examples of women who were in the ministry. DOn't feel shut out, just ask God to give you wisdom. That is what I had to do, when I first read these verses I was ticked offf.   





			
				ReaLuvsAOxymoron said:
			
		

> Well I do feel shut out. I feel more and more alienated by the church everyday. I have to just start accepting that my interpretations are different. People pick and choose what they feel is important to follow in the Bible. Just like going to church on a Sunday. The Sabbath isn't Sunday, right? People in general only accept literal biblical meanings when they want to. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!


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## Honeyhips (Apr 21, 2005)

onepraying said:
			
		

> Great debate!
> 
> You are funny...   ...those are _under_clothing. They are different though, aren't they. If a man put on women's panties then he's weird, right? Men and women were always different. God made us that way. If there were not words and just pictures on a bathroom door, how would you tell which is the men's which is the women's? What would you see?
> 
> ...


of course it does, and those women need to be silent. not those women who are being obedient to God.


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## Honeyhips (Apr 21, 2005)

It is clear and concise and it is about a certain group of women. 

The same can be said about countless men who have had a church for 30 years and the same ten members. It isn't just about women starting their own churches but about women who have been called to be Pastors and Deacons with in a church. 

Of course not everyone is called to Preach or Teach. That wasn't the issue. That is just common sense. 

I could easily say that you are just as deceived as you are painting those who disagree with you. 
Yes it does make sense that people shop around for a church. Some maybe doing b/c they want to do something that God hasn't called them to do and they are going to go from church to church until someone lets them. Some, like my friend, could have left one church for another b/c they were strong in an area that they want to grow in, like deliverance, prophesy, and praying in tongues. So yes it is possible to "shop" around for a church, until you are led by the holy spirit to be planted in one. It is about going to where God wants your annointing to be used. 

Again, we are not going after our own lust, just b/c we disagree with you. 



			
				Vintagecoilylocks said:
			
		

> . *The language is clear and concise. It has nothing to do with some particular group of woman at a particular church being disruptive.* How ever if woman were demanding things out side of the teachings no matter how right they may felt them to be this would also be disrupting. Even today.
> 
> Many people say they were called by God. Or they prayed and God said to do something. If the result is one that is against his original teachings then it could never be from him. And maybe its not from satan either. Its simply from our own selves.
> 
> ...


I guess it depends on how you define Pastor, b/c although I have one head Pastor in my church who is the head, there are others under him. As well as Deacons and Elders.  They are part of the leadership team as a whole.  THey do have authority over the rest of the congregation.


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## InsertCleverNameHere (Apr 21, 2005)

Oh yeah and when I say I feel shut out its not just this. I believe and see that there are 2 very convincing arguments and I chose the interpretation I feel is correct. I just think people pick and choose like the sabbath thing. Such a turn off. I'm trying though!


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## MomofThreeBoys (Apr 21, 2005)

I feel you on the Sabbath issue....



			
				ReaLuvsAOxymoron said:
			
		

> Oh yeah and when I say I feel shut out its not just this. I believe and see that there are 2 very convincing arguments and I chose the interpretation I feel is correct. I just think people pick and choose like the sabbath thing. Such a turn off. I'm trying though!


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## Poohbear (Apr 21, 2005)

Honeyhips said:
			
		

> I'm going to send you a pm of why and how people are interpreting this women shouldn't be Pastors wrong and examples of women who were in the ministry. DOn't feel shut out, just ask God to give you wisdom. That is what I had to do, when I first read these verses I was ticked offf.


*why do u keep wanting to PM people? why don't u share your knowledge here so we'll now what you're talking about and where you're coming from? There were women in the ministry: Priscilla, Mary, Tryphena, Typhosa, Eudias, and Synthche, Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Susanna, and many others. They just weren't preachers nor pastors. *


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## MomofThreeBoys (Apr 21, 2005)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> *why do u keep wanting to PM people? why don't u share your knowledge here so we'll now what you're talking about and where you're coming from? There were women in the ministry: Priscilla, Mary, Tryphena, Typhosa, Eudias, and Synthche, Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Susanna, and many others. They just weren't preachers nor pastors. *



For the purpose of this thread does Preacher = Pastor?  i.e. leader of a church. B/C I consider myself a preacher but NOT a pastor. I have assisted in bible studies and preached the Word to fellow believers


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## InsertCleverNameHere (Apr 21, 2005)

Whats in the name (preachers, pastors, etc) isn't it the actions that define?


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## JenJen2721 (Apr 21, 2005)

1 Timothy 2:9-15

9Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, 
10but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. 
11A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 
12But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 
13For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 
14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 
15But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint. 


_________________________________________________________

*So do you guys also follow verse 9 that says no braids, gold, pearls or expensive clothing???*


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## MomofThreeBoys (Apr 21, 2005)

I guess everyone has there own definition.



			
				ReaLuvsAOxymoron said:
			
		

> Whats in the name (preachers, pastors, etc) isn't it the actions that define?


----------



## JenJen2721 (Apr 21, 2005)

natalied said:
			
		

> I guess everyone has there own definition.



What's the difference in your opnion Natalie?


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## InsertCleverNameHere (Apr 21, 2005)

JenJen2721 said:
			
		

> 1 Timothy 2:9-15
> 
> 9Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments,
> 
> ...


 
Everybody throw out your designer bags, get off the braid challenge and stop wearing those dangly earrings!  

As I said, people choose. I think that for one, you have to understand context before you can get the full meaning of ANY text. 

Furthermore, the Bible wasn't written in English, just translated...You would have to learn the original language to get full meaning. 

This is why it can be difficult to always assert literal face value meaning. There is so much more involved.


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## Poohbear (Apr 21, 2005)

natalied said:
			
		

> For the purpose of this thread does Preacher = Pastor? i.e. leader of a church. B/C I consider myself a preacher but NOT a pastor. I have assisted in bible studies and preached the Word to fellow believers


 
To me, they are not the same...

A pastor is a spiritual overseer of the church.

A preacher is someone who delievers a sermon/message from God.

An evangelist proclaims the gospel/good news of Jesus and the kingdom of God

A teacher is some who provides instruction by experience or something we need to know such as knowing how to do a certain action or the right attitude to have


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## MomofThreeBoys (Apr 21, 2005)

Based on your definitions poohbear, I believe I am a preacher (I've led out in Prayer meeting and delivered the message), an evangelist (I've shared the gospel with non-believers), and a teacher (I teach the youngins' Sabbath School class)

I am not convicted on the idea of women being pastors.  We do not ordain women as pastors. I have a friend who just got her masters in theology and boy is she hot on the subject!  



			
				Poohbear said:
			
		

> To me, they are not the same...
> 
> A pastor is a spiritual overseer of the church.
> 
> ...


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## MomofThreeBoys (Apr 21, 2005)

Pastor - leader of a church
Preacher - someone we proclaims a message from God to others



			
				JenJen2721 said:
			
		

> What's the difference in your opnion Natalie?


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## Poohbear (Apr 21, 2005)

Thanks for sharing nataliead! 

I just believe woman can be teachers over other women and children, and I believe anyone can be an evangelist to anyone. That's it.


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## MomofThreeBoys (Apr 21, 2005)

my husband was not a believer, I brought him the message

. If you share the message of Jesus Christ to a male non believer and you teach him how to be a Christian aren't you a teacher too Poohbear?



			
				Poohbear said:
			
		

> Thanks for sharing nataliead!
> 
> I just believe woman can be teachers over other women and children, and I believe anyone can be an evangelist to anyone. That's it.


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## Poohbear (Apr 21, 2005)

natalied said:
			
		

> my husband was not a believer, I brought him the message
> 
> . If you share the message of Jesus Christ to a male believer and you teach him how to be a Christian aren't you a teacher too Poohbear?


I've never taught a man before.  I've only given children sermons on youth Sunday and I teach Sunday School to 5-8 year old children.  In your case of your husband who was not a believer at first, you evangelized to him.  Evangelizing also involves converting others to Christianity.


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## Vintagecoilylocks (Apr 21, 2005)

To Realluvs,  

    Sorry to hear you feel shut out but you are not.  Just being part of worship makes you an important part.  The Sabbath, was on the seventh day of the week.  It is still the seventh day of the week.  That has not changed.  But Christ taught us that he is our Sabbath now.  In the scriptures it teaches that Christians came together on the first day of the week to worship, give praise and break the bread of Christ because it was the day he rose and then celabrated his rising with them.  It became the custom of the christians to meet on that day.  They had started to come together daily but if you recall they were not an excepted group and was limited to one day due to their obligations to the Roman authority.  So Sunday remained the day for Christians.  It was merely a custom started by the first Christians and should not be a source of tension.  Many of the ones of Jewish background still celebrated the Sabbath as Christ did.


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## InsertCleverNameHere (Apr 21, 2005)

Thats my point, just because it is tradition, does that make it biblically correct? But either way, somehow I don't think this will matter in the end. As in women preachers, what day you worship on, whether you wear braids or not. But IMO it is a reality that people only take literal the scriptures they want to. We make up holidays, we do this, we do that. I just don't know. Don't know at all.


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## Vintagecoilylocks (Apr 21, 2005)

Yes I have done away with the designer bags and the designer hair.  Never did the costly clothes.  We made our own but I ensured they were pleasing to God and not dictated by the lastest fashion.  Many do the same.  Why, because it is how the scriptures have spoke to us through the Holy Spirit.  Thousand of woman through out history of the faith have been full enriched servants of God as he has commanded.  If your church shuts you out then it is in error.

     It is not that you disagree with me, you seem to disagree with scripture.  1Tim chapter 3 is clearly speaking of men and not a role for woman.  

    The scriptures of old and new spoke of people who preached and spread the word.  That is for all to do.  However the seven chosen to assist the aposltes were men.  And the scriptures only speak of men who were ordained or giving the sacraments.   Only men in those positions.  Not my feelings on the subject but the scriptures teachings.  If we refuse the teachings then we are chasing after our own lusts and seeking false teachers to suit our likes.


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## InsertCleverNameHere (Apr 21, 2005)

I don't disagree with you or the scripture, I just have a different interpretation. I do not think they are false teachers. I am not going to even say anymore, me and others have stated that interpretation. 

It is not God's church that has shut me out. Oh no I will never be shut from that. It is more the people not a particular church. 

I don't think I can respond anymore...people pick and choose and that is just how it is.


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## Vintagecoilylocks (Apr 21, 2005)

RealLuvs,

  Some things in the bible are just as you say, showing what was the custom started or the reaction to an event. For example, we know that some of the first churches were in private homes.  They had been put our of the temple forbidden to celabrate the Lords supper there.  When Christians were persecuted they went underground and held services in the catacombs and stables and in secret.  Later they were allowed to construct there own places of worship.  This is history and customs developing.  However some are direct teachings.  Christ taught the apostles and commanded that they do as he did.  He showed us certain behavior and told us to follow him.  These things should not be unclear in your mind.  He also chose the apostles.  He commanded them to establish his church on earth.  If they state how something was to be done or understood then it is as if Christ was saying it.  We are being commanded to live a certain way.  The level and environment in which you are convicted to follow is individual.  But it does not mean its optional once you are convicted of a teaching.  When they established the functioning of the church it was not optional to carry it through.  That is why there was guide lines on who and how the basic structure f the churhc of Christ would be.  There is basic guidelines on how one dresses and behaves.  Simply because everyone doesn't doe not change the fact that the teachings are there.  There are direct teachings on how a husband is to treate his wife and a wife her husband.  We cannot ignor or rationalize those things.  When you read your bible discern that which is a command and that which is other wise.  You need to know.   They are clearer than you say.  I see no grey area's in the scriptures nor does my church teach as if there are.


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## InsertCleverNameHere (Apr 21, 2005)

I do not feel convicted on your interpretation. Nothing more. for me to say...


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## Poohbear (Apr 21, 2005)

Vintagecoilylocks said:
			
		

> RealLuvs,
> 
> Some things in the bible are just as you say, showing what was the custom started or the reaction to an event. For example, we know that some of the first churches were in private homes. They had been put our of the temple forbidden to celabrate the Lords supper there. When Christians were persecuted they went underground and held services in the catacombs and stables and in secret. Later they were allowed to construct there own places of worship. This is history and customs developing. However some are direct teachings. Christ taught the apostles and commanded that they do as he did. He showed us certain behavior and told us to follow him. These things should not be unclear in your mind. He also chose the apostles. He commanded them to establish his church on earth. If they state how something was to be done or understood then it is as if Christ was saying it. *We are being commanded to live a certain way. The level and environment in which you are convicted to follow is individual. But it does not mean its optional once you are convicted of a teaching. When they established the functioning of the church it was not optional to carry it through. That is why there was guide lines on who and how the basic structure f the churhc of Christ would be. There is basic guidelines on how one dresses and behaves. Simply because everyone doesn't doe not change the fact that the teachings are there. There are direct teachings on how a husband is to treate his wife and a wife her husband. We cannot ignor or rationalize those things. When you read your bible discern that which is a command and that which is other wise. You need to know. They are clearer than you say. I see no grey area's in the scriptures nor does my church teach as if there are*.


Great post! I agree!


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## blessedangil03 (Apr 21, 2005)

I've been watching this debate go on and on and on. This is exactly why there are so many denominations today. Everyone interprets scripture their own way and stick to it. They claim that it is the only way and anyone else that goes against it, goes against the word. I've been in the church all of my life, and till this day I don't know what side I stand on concerning women pastors or women in leadership. I've read the two sides and they are both strong and on point. My thing is this, we serve one God and we we read the bible. People believe what they have been taught in the church, they believe in what they see in the Word (literally) and there others that go into deeper study of the time of the events and meaning of the words that were translated. Right now, I am not for or against. I believe that there are lost people out there that need to be saved and whoever can deliver the message let it be done, whether man or woman. It is about the kingdom ladies. It is about the lost sheep whose souls are being condemned if we don't do nothing about it. Jesus commanded us to go out and preach the good news. This is not an option but an obligation. It is obvious that we all have our different beliefs and interpretations. Also, let us have an open mind and allow God to use whatever vessel is available. I hope this all makes sense. Be blessed.


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## Poohbear (Apr 21, 2005)

blessedangil03 said:
			
		

> I've been watching this debate go on and on and on. This is exactly why there are so many denominations today. Everyone interprets scripture their own way and stick to it. They claim that it is the only way and anyone else that goes against it, goes against the word. I've been in the church all of my life, and till this day I don't know what side I stand on concerning women pastors or women in leadership. I've read the two sides and they are both strong and on point. My thing is this, we serve one God and we we read the bible. People believe what they have been taught in the church, they believe in what they see in the Word (literally) and there others that go into deeper study of the time of the events and meaning of the words that were translated. Right now, I am not for or against. I believe that there are lost people out there that need to be saved and whoever can deliver the message let it be done, whether man or woman. It is about the kingdom ladies. It is about the lost sheep whose souls are being condemned if we don't do nothing about it. Jesus commanded us to go out and preach the good news. This is not an option but an obligation. It is obvious that we all have our different beliefs and interpretations. Also, let us have an open mind and allow God to use whatever vessel is available. I hope this all makes sense. Be blessed.


Great post! Very well said!  I agree that this is why we have denominations among Christianity as well!


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## miracle (Apr 21, 2005)

blessedangil03 said:
			
		

> I've been watching this debate go on and on and on. This is exactly why there are so many denominations today. Everyone interprets scripture their own way and stick to it. They claim that it is the only way and anyone else that goes against it, goes against the word. I've been in the church all of my life, and till this day I don't know what side I stand on concerning women pastors or women in leadership. I've read the two sides and they are both strong and on point. My thing is this, we serve one God and we we read the bible. People believe what they have been taught in the church, they believe in what they see in the Word (literally) and there others that go into deeper study of the time of the events and meaning of the words that were translated. Right now, I am not for or against. I believe that there are lost people out there that need to be saved and whoever can deliver the message let it be done, whether man or woman. It is about the kingdom ladies. It is about the lost sheep whose souls are being condemned if we don't do nothing about it. Jesus commanded us to go out and preach the good news. This is not an option but an obligation. It is obvious that we all have our different beliefs and interpretations. Also, let us have an open mind and allow God to use whatever vessel is available. I hope this all makes sense. Be blessed.



*I love this post!!!!!!  Thank you for this, blessedangil03!!!*


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## InsertCleverNameHere (Apr 21, 2005)

miracle said:
			
		

> *I love this post!!!!!! Thank you for this, blessedangil03!!!*


 
Love the post too!


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## JenJen2721 (Apr 21, 2005)

Freedom From Human Regulations Through Life With Christ 
   6So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, 7rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness. 
   8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. 

   9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,[a] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. 

   13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,* God made you[c] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[d] 

 16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. *


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## JenJen2721 (Apr 21, 2005)

blessedangil03 said:
			
		

> I believe that there are lost people out there that need to be saved and whoever can deliver the message let it be done, whether man or woman. It is about the kingdom ladies. It is about the lost sheep whose souls are being condemned if we don't do nothing about it. *Jesus commanded us to go out and preach the good news. *This is not an option but an obligation. It is obvious that we all have our different beliefs and interpretations. *Also, let us have an open mind and allow God to use whatever vessel is available.* I hope this all makes sense. Be blessed.



You make a lot of sense.


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## Honeyhips (Apr 22, 2005)

Because that is my right and my choice. I don't have to defend myself. I don't feel like this is a discussion but a battle to prove who is right and who is wrong. Especially after it was implied that certain ones who disagree might be deceived and on their way to hell.  Like any of us know who that is. 





			
				Poohbear said:
			
		

> *why do u keep wanting to PM people? why don't u share your knowledge here so we'll now what you're talking about and where you're coming from? There were women in the ministry: Priscilla, Mary, Tryphena, Typhosa, Eudias, and Synthche, Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Susanna, and many others. They just weren't preachers nor pastors. *


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## Honeyhips (Apr 22, 2005)

very well said. 





			
				blessedangil03 said:
			
		

> I've been watching this debate go on and on and on. This is exactly why there are so many denominations today. Everyone interprets scripture their own way and stick to it. They claim that it is the only way and anyone else that goes against it, goes against the word. I've been in the church all of my life, and till this day I don't know what side I stand on concerning women pastors or women in leadership. I've read the two sides and they are both strong and on point. My thing is this, we serve one God and we we read the bible. People believe what they have been taught in the church, they believe in what they see in the Word (literally) and there others that go into deeper study of the time of the events and meaning of the words that were translated. Right now, I am not for or against. I believe that there are lost people out there that need to be saved and whoever can deliver the message let it be done, whether man or woman. It is about the kingdom ladies. It is about the lost sheep whose souls are being condemned if we don't do nothing about it. Jesus commanded us to go out and preach the good news. This is not an option but an obligation. It is obvious that we all have our different beliefs and interpretations. Also, let us have an open mind and allow God to use whatever vessel is available. I hope this all makes sense. Be blessed.


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## Honeyhips (Apr 22, 2005)

Wow... this is good. I'm going to have to remember this. 





			
				ReaLuvsAOxymoron said:
			
		

> I do not feel convicted on your interpretation. Nothing more. for me to say...


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## Poohbear (Apr 22, 2005)

Honeyhips said:
			
		

> Because that is my right and my choice. I don't have to defend myself. I don't feel like this is a discussion but a battle to prove who is right and who is wrong. Especially after it was implied that certain ones who disagree might be deceived and on their way to hell.  Like any of us know who that is.


*I'm sorry you feel this way.  I certainly don't feel like this is a battle to prove who's right or wrong.  I think you are taking some responses the wrong way.  There's no need to defend yourself about anything the Bible says.  The Bible says what it says... no one can change that.  And no you're not going to hell just because you disagree with what others say.  I mean can't you see that there's pretty much an equal amount of ladies here that disagree with women pastors and agree with women pastors?  As blessedangil03 said, that's why we have all these denominations in Christianity because of the different interpretations.  So stand up for what you believe if you think what you believe is right!  *


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## Vintagecoilylocks (Apr 22, 2005)

To Honeyhips,

    You should defend yourself.  Christ did, the apostles did.  How else could they show the truth.  What will you do when you are approached by someone with questions on being Christian.  How will you witness when they question or try to dispute what you say?  What evidence and teachings will you produce for them.  We cannot just walk away upset or shutdown because you have been challenged  in your beliefs.

    The statements were made that it was unclear in the bible about woman Pastors.  When several ladies gave the scriptures some responses were Well I don't agree with no explanation based on scripture as to why.  What explanation will you give a seeker.  

    If you get offended when you are challenged yet give no scripture or teaching to bear witness to your beliefs how can you witness in truth for Christ.  If they ask where can they read that will you not produce the word for them.  We must produce the evidence that has been given to us so that others can know it is true and not just our own interpretation or opinion.

   And there are many false teachers and practices in the world today.  I am not so proud to claim that I have never been falsley led by different teachings through the years.  With the protestants having so many denominations I would think you would know the need to be prudent in what is out there.  On this site we have heard of many saying they have heard some strange and conflicitng teachngs being put out by supposed teachers in some churches.  Also the advice has been given to seek out churches that teach only the word.  So obviuosly there are teachings going on that are or not biblically supported. 

    There was know one saying we are not all to bring the gospel to all we interact with.  We have all been commanded to do so.  

   Study to show thy self approved.  Be ready to give account of what you believe, why you believe it.


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## JenJen2721 (Apr 22, 2005)

When it comes down to it, salvation does not rest upon whether one has a female pastor or not.


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## Poohbear (Apr 22, 2005)

JenJen2721 said:
			
		

> When it comes down to it, salvation does not rest upon whether one has a female pastor or not.


THANK YOU!!!


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## InsertCleverNameHere (Apr 22, 2005)

JenJen2721 said:
			
		

> When it comes down to it, salvation does not rest upon whether one has a female pastor or not.


 
Yup! Between my SO thinking I'm horrible for going to church on Sunday and not saying yahweh and people on here thinking I'm horrible for listening to females preachers and pastors and my ma thinking I'm horrible for my belief on creationism, I REALLY needed to hear that, lol!


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## Nice (Apr 23, 2005)

Bublnbrnsuga said:
			
		

> I really think we need to look at what was going on at the time when Paul advised women not to say anything in the church. At THAT time, the women were being disruptive, etc, so it was advised for them to keep their comments/questions to themselves, then ask their husbands questions. God did not forbid a woman to minister. I can't believe that women actually agree with that archaeic teaching.
> 
> What's next? You gonna tell me that women should not wear anything that pertains to a man, ie pants? Well, if so, take off your PANTIES, because they are shorter versions of pants,lol. We really need to STUDY the Word,by asking what,why,when, who and how.
> 
> Peace!


 
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## DragonPearl (Apr 23, 2005)

There is definitely a mysogynistic bias in the interpretations of the bible. Religious *(mostly male*) leaders have conveniently found all kinds of rethoric to explain away the need to follow certain bible injunctions regarding dress code, hairstyle, diet and food, etc, and the list is long. But they have not explained away the injunction to keep women silent and under the thumb of men in the church. 

If in the church, women should NOT to have positions of authority, why stop there? Since most Christians do *not* like the separation of Church and state, I am wondering if the ladies subscribing to these ideas are also against women having positions of authority in politics and business. Should all the women bosses who have men working under them resign and let men have the positions of authority? I suppose Condi Rice should be a good Christian woman and give up her position of authority?


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## Honeyhips (Apr 24, 2005)

Vintagecoilylocks said:
			
		

> To Honeyhips,
> 
> You should defend yourself. Christ did, the apostles did. How else could they show the truth. What will you do when you are approached by someone with questions on being Christian. How will you witness when they question or try to dispute what you say? What evidence and teachings will you produce for them. We cannot just walk away upset or shutdown because you have been challenged in your beliefs.
> 
> ...


  There is a reason why I'm walking away, offense isn't one of them. As a person you learn what battles are worth fighting and which ones are not.  This just isn't worth it to me. 


 You have sent me to hell, deceived and now you are calling me a false prohpet.  

 Pooh you may not have meant anything by YOUR post. but you can't speak for everyone.


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## CatSuga (Apr 24, 2005)

I'll try to keep my comment short and simple.

In black America, there is a lack of male leadership.
Black men are not the leaders of the majority of our communities.
Black men are not the head of the majority of our homes.
Black men are not superiors at the majority of our jobs.

Everything about the black home and the black church is being dominated by black women. These churches that permit women to become pastors are just allowing the norm outside of the church to dictate the norm inside of the church.  
In my personal opinion, this just shows the downward spiral of the black community. The status of black men have been broken to an all time low: men no longer provide for their women, men no longer raise their children, and now men can no longer be the spirtural leaders of their community.

(seriouly, i dont' know where this comment came from, i've been up for over 24hrs.)


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## DragonPearl (Apr 24, 2005)

CatSuga said:
			
		

> I'll try to keep my comment short and simple.
> 
> In black America, there is a lack of male leadership.
> Black men are not the leaders of the majority of our communities.
> ...


So the answer is for black women to be silent, to step back, turn down positions and jobs of authority and to wait for the black men to step up to the plate? 

And is the black church really dominated by black women? From what I see, while the majority of the flock is made up of black women, the ones at the helm are still overwhelmingly black men. 

This call for male leadership is a slippery slope. What are women really supposed to do? When we go for job interviews, should we turn down jobs that might have us supervising black men? Should we refuse to work for women bosses and demand that our boss be males? Should we not vote for women officials on the basis of gender? 

I am truly curious to know you are concretely applying this philosophy in your business, professional (if you have a career) and personal life. I mean, do you actually walk the walk?


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## NewlyNature12 (Apr 24, 2005)

Jessy55 said:
			
		

> So the answer is for black women to be silent, to step back, turn down positions and jobs of authority and to wait for the black men to step up to the plate?
> 
> And is the black church really dominated by black women? From what I see, while the majority of the flock is made up of black women, the ones at the helm are still overwhelmingly black men.
> 
> ...



Thank you for this post. 

I feel that women have stepped up where men have fallen. I grew up in a church where women preached, and I've been to a church where a woman was pastor.  She has led that church for many years and has saved a multitude of people.  

I've noticed that some of you are so judgemental, maybe unintentionally. Let's not forget that we all have fallen short.


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