# Single Christian women are you looking only for black men?



## tmichelle (Mar 19, 2007)

Perhaps because I always thought I would be single, or perhaps because my sister is single and writes for Christian Single magazine I have always cared about the singles in the church.  While the Lord has blessed me with a loving Christian husband who is a dream come true, I know the heart ache that comes with living without a relationship you always wanted because I feel that there are MANY similarities between singlenss and infertility (which I've been going through).

Anyway, not to post just another IR thread   After viewing the preview on the dvd concerning single black women and the church and hearing, once again, how slim the pickings are for black men, I was wondering how many black Christian women are willing to open their hearts to a non-black man.

I truly won't be offended by however you vote but I would like to encourage all the single women to be observant of who God may intend for you to have.  It may not be what you always envisioned having, a black man.  I would just hate for all these women to go through life wanting to have a godly husband just to find out that they overlooked the one God had choosen because they didn't realize that they were to marry a non-black.  

Anyway, I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on this matter.


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## upandcoming (Mar 19, 2007)

tmichelle said:
			
		

> Perhaps because I always thought I would be single, or perhaps because my sister is single and writes for Christian Single magazine I have always cared about the singles in the church. While the Lord has blessed me with a loving Christian husband who is a dream come true, I know the heart ache that comes with living without a relationship you always wanted because I feel that there are MANY similarities between singlenss and infertility (which I've been going through).
> 
> Anyway, not to post just another IR thread  After viewing the preview on the dvd concerning single black women and the church and hearing, once again, how slim the pickings are for black men, I was wondering how many black Christian women are willing to open their hearts to a non-black man.
> 
> ...


 
I'm open to dating outside of my race, but it's not so much the race that matters...it's the lifestyle/perspective. When I close my eyes and think of a man, he's black but that's by default. I'd date outside. =)


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## PaperClip (Mar 19, 2007)

togethernessinchrist said:
			
		

> I'm open to dating outside of my race, but it's not so much the race that matters...it's the lifestyle/perspective. When I close my eyes and think of a man, he's black but that's by default. I'd date outside. =)


 
Basically the same response from me.


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## bludacious (Mar 19, 2007)

You know I use to think that I would only date black men.  The closer I got to God, I realized that I should wait on God!  I am not looking.  I am waiting on God.  God's children comes in different race's.  So, when God sends my mate, He may be a short white man something totally different than what I use to invision.


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## tmichelle (Mar 19, 2007)

togethernessinchrist said:
			
		

> I'm open to dating outside of my race, but it's not so much the race that matters...it's the lifestyle/perspective. When I close my eyes and think of a man, he's black but that's by default. I'd date outside. =)


 
I'm intrigued by the words lifestyle/perspective.  Would you elaborate?


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## tmichelle (Mar 19, 2007)

bludacious said:
			
		

> You know I use to think that I would only date black men. The closer I got to God, I realized that I should wait on God! I am not looking. I am waiting on God. God's children comes in different race's. So, when God sends my mate, He may be a short white man something totally different than what I use to invision.


 
Do you think you will be at peace with someone "other" than you envisioned or do you think you will have to say, "well okay Lord, since you insist."


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## upandcoming (Mar 19, 2007)

tmichelle said:
			
		

> I'm intrigued by the words lifestyle/perspective. Would you elaborate?


 
This may sound bad but I'd really like someone who is ambitious - in whatever field he's in. I'd also prefer someone who has passion - in something OUTSIDE of work; languages, the arts, sports w/e. 

What I mean is, I am becoming an attorney. I work hard and I've worked hard for a long time because I feel that much is required to whom much is given, so I'd like someone who has worked hard as well - in whatever field. I am really serious about using my career to help others, specifically youth and minority/immigrant women. So I want my man to work hard to - in whatever field - music, nursing, investment banking, medicine, law, public health, performing, accounting, whatever. He doesn't have to be rich, nor does he have to be brilliant. Just hard working and ambitious, eager to support his family and help his community. 

But I also want someone who likes to have a good time. I want somoene who I can go see a play or travel with, or go salsa dancing with or just watch a movie and be silly and throw popcorn at one another...I think its important to balance work and social life. 

Often times I find people in either extremes. Of course I also want a strong Christian who will challenge me and vice versa.


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## bludacious (Mar 19, 2007)

tmichelle said:
			
		

> Do you think you will be at peace with someone "other" than you envisioned or do you think you will have to say, "well okay Lord, since you insist."


 
Yes, I will because I feel as if God is preparing me for when I do meet my soulmate.  I pray that God will make it plain for me to recognize.


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## Glib Gurl (Mar 19, 2007)

togethernessinchrist said:
			
		

> This may sound bad but I'd really like someone who is ambitious - in whatever field he's in. I'd also prefer someone who has passion - in something OUTSIDE of work; languages, the arts, sports w/e.
> 
> What I mean is, I am becoming an attorney. I work hard and I've worked hard for a long time because I feel that much is required to whom much is given, so I'd like someone who has worked hard as well - in whatever field. I am really serious about using my career to help others, specifically youth and minority/immigrant women. So I want my man to work hard to - in whatever field - music, nursing, investment banking, medicine, law, public health, performing, accounting, whatever. He doesn't have to be rich, nor does he have to be brilliant. Just hard working and ambitious, eager to support his family and help his community.
> 
> ...


 
I agree with all of the above.  To me, faith matters more than race.  So, if I had to chose between a white Christian man and a black non-Christian, all other things being equal, I'd go with the white man.  I've fought too hard to come to this place in my faith walk to not have someone by my side who will pray with me, encourage me, etc., etc.  

Of course, my first preference is a black Christian man . . . but God is control, so we shall see . . . . 

BTW, the SoulMate video features a black woman who ended up marrying a man for Europe . . . and she says she never thought she would, but when they met they had so much in common . . . so you never know . . .


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## tmichelle (Mar 19, 2007)

togethernessinchrist said:
			
		

> This may sound bad but I'd really like someone who is ambitious - in whatever field he's in. I'd also prefer someone who has passion - in something OUTSIDE of work; languages, the arts, sports w/e.
> 
> What I mean is, I am becoming an attorney. I work hard and I've worked hard for a long time because I feel that much is required to whom much is given, so I'd like someone who has worked hard as well - in whatever field. I am really serious about using my career to help others, specifically youth and minority/immigrant women. So I want my man to work hard to - in whatever field - music, nursing, investment banking, medicine, law, public health, performing, accounting, whatever. He doesn't have to be rich, nor does he have to be brilliant. Just hard working and ambitious, eager to support his family and help his community.
> 
> ...


 
That doesn't sound bad to me at all.  It sounds godly.  As one who has often struggled with laziness and low ambition, I know the repurcussions of not doing one's best at whatever the Lord has given you to do.  The struggle to work hard is not easy and I can totally understand (and heartily agree) why you would want to avoid that flaw in a spouse.

In my view, what you are asking about is a man who takes the Lord seriously in EVERYTHING he does.  I think that is admirable.  I am praying for you that the Lord will give you the man that help you to know and love the Lord even more.


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## tmichelle (Mar 19, 2007)

bludacious said:
			
		

> Yes, I will because I feel as if God is preparing me for when I do meet my soulmate. I pray that God will make it plain for me to recognize.


 
I am praying the same for you and that he will draw you into a deeper love and understanding of the Lord.


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## tmichelle (Mar 19, 2007)

Glib Gurl said:
			
		

> I agree with all of the above. To me, faith matters more than race. So, if I had to chose between a white Christian man and a black non-Christian, all other things being equal, I'd go with the white man. I've fought too hard to come to this place in my faith walk to not have someone by my side who will pray with me, encourage me, etc., etc.
> 
> Of course, my first preference is a black Christian man . . . but God is control, so we shall see . . . .
> 
> BTW, the SoulMate video features a black woman who ended up marrying a man for Europe . . . and she says she never thought she would, but when they met they had so much in common . . . so you never know . . .


 
I am very much intrigued by the SoulMate video.  I would love to see it but my marital status as well as my obsession with buying dvd's will probably make my husband put his foot down.  But perhaps I can find it on netflix as we received a free 3 month subscription for x-mas.  I'm glad you have found such a great perspective watching this dvd.  I'm praying that the Lord will bring into your life a godly husband, one that is after His own heart.


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## cocoberry10 (Mar 19, 2007)

I can't speak for all Black women, but I don't think most Black women are only looking for a Black man.

I have several non-Black friends who date interracially without reservation.  It does seem that Black women are more hesitant, but I also think our race has more hang-ups about race than other races.  I suppose this is a byproduct of the 400 years of slavery/colonialism that we've been exposed to.

What I admit haunts me a little bit, is that there has become this "lack" of Black male role models, both in the church and in the world.  I feel like a lot of times, the major white ministers we know of and see are white men.  Yes, you have the Creflo Dollars, the Frederick Price's, the Eddie Longs.  I suppose Minister Louis Farrakhan (Muslim) and Jessie Jackson have to fall into this category  !  

But overall, I'm starting to become concerned with the image that Black men have, both in the world and in the church.

Of course, God doesn't care what color the person you marry is.  As the bible says, God isn't a respecter of persons, so I know this doesn't matter anyway.

But I would like to see more strong, positive images of Black families (Christian Black families), whether the man I end up with is Black or not!


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## tmichelle (Mar 20, 2007)

cocoberry10 said:
			
		

> I can't speak for all Black women, but I don't think most Black women are only looking for a Black man.
> 
> I have several non-Black friends who date interracially without reservation. It does seem that Black women are more hesitant, but I also think our race has more hang-ups about race than other races. I suppose this is a byproduct of the 400 years of slavery/colonialism that we've been exposed to.
> 
> ...


 
I too am concerned with the part bolded in black.  I'll take it a step further and say that I am concerned with not only the image but also the reality behind the image.  I've heard many theories of why many black men cannot succeed in the world as well as theories on why the interest in the Lord ends when Sunday services ends.  

As to the lack of real spiritual transformation, several theories have been put forward.  One is that black women have spoiled their sons to the point that they think the world revolves around them.  Another is that the black woman has become so strong and no longer needs/wants men to be spiritual leaders so displaces them as the spiritual heads both in services as well as in homes. (One might argue that the leadership of the women is more of a result than a cause).  Their are others as well.  Do you have any thoughts/theories on why there seems to be a dispproportionately amount of black spiritual women than men?


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## cocoberry10 (Mar 20, 2007)

tmichelle said:
			
		

> I too am concerned with the part bolded in black.  I'll take it a step further and say that I am concerned with not only the image but also the reality behind the image.  I've heard many theories of why many black men cannot succeed in the world as well as theories on why the interest in the Lord ends when Sunday services ends.
> 
> As to the lack of real spiritual transformation, several theories have been put forward.  One is that black women have spoiled their sons to the point that they think the world revolves around them.  Another is that the black woman has become so strong and no longer needs/wants men to be spiritual leaders so displaces them as the spiritual heads both in services as well as in homes. (One might argue that the leadership of the women is more of a result than a cause).  Their are others as well.  Do you have any thoughts/theories on why there seems to be a dispproportionately amount of black spiritual women than men?



I will try to guess.  I grew up in a house with a mother, father and 3 daughters, so I didn't see a "son" grow up in my house.

Some of my Black male friends say they don't really relate to church and say that a lot of ministers are feminine or cater to the female parishoners.  Since they've made this point, I've made it a point to "notice" these things more.  And I have to say, that in some churches, this is true.

Often the pastor (whether male or female) will say things like "girl (guuuuuuuurl)" or "uh-uh" or shake their hips in an effeminate manner.  This doesn't necessarily mean they are gay, but heterosexual men are often uncomfortable with this.

Also, it's like common knowledge that most music ministers are GAY.  It's become a joke almost.  I rented a Christian film, made by a Christian company once and the music minister's character in the movie was FLAMING.  I was shocked, b/c I didn't expect that from a Christian movie (and this has nothing to do with my personal view on homosexuality).  But the movie company was a known Christian/conservative one.  My sis said that when she went to Kenya, even there the music ministers were gay.

So, for a heterosexual Black man, going to church may be uncomfortable.  And for a homosexual Black man, going to church is probably very uncomfortable, b/c the Black church doesn't want to acknowledge homosexuality, and most churches make gay parishoners unwelcome.

If I think of any other theories, I'll add them later.


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## bludacious (Mar 20, 2007)

tmichelle said:
			
		

> I am praying the same for you and that he will draw you into a deeper love and understanding of the Lord.


 
Thank you!


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## tmichelle (Mar 21, 2007)

cocoberry10 said:
			
		

> I will try to guess. I grew up in a house with a mother, father and 3 daughters, so I didn't see a "son" grow up in my house.
> 
> Some of my Black male friends say they don't really relate to church and say that a lot of ministers are feminine or cater to the female parishoners. Since they've made this point, I've made it a point to "notice" these things more. And I have to say, that in some churches, this is true.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks, what interesting thoughts!  I definitely want to hear more if you come up with them.  It is hard to assess the situation from my perspective because the church I've always been a member of is so different that I didn't know those things but that makes sense to me.  Our church is very patriarchal and almost all of them are acapella so there are only song leaders and rarely music ministers, (which does have its drawbacks when the songleader can't read music  ...or sing).  

So yes please do let me know if you think of or hear more theories!


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## BlkManWithSomeSense (Mar 21, 2007)

Interesting post. Great responses.


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## tmichelle (Mar 21, 2007)

bludacious said:
			
		

> Thank you!


 
My pleasure and your welcome!


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## tmichelle (Mar 21, 2007)

BlkManWithSomeSense said:
			
		

> Interesting post. Great responses.


 
Any thoughts?


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## BlkManWithSomeSense (Mar 21, 2007)

I only date black women. I don't believe it has anything to do with any by product of slavery. All the women in my life that ever meant anything to me and helped build me to the man I am were black women, so my element of comfort is with a black woman. I have yet to find someone of another race who understands my hardships and triumphs as well as she does. You need only look to radios, movies and cultural history to see our unique and considerable contributions to society. And yet, now, when brought up in discussion of value and worth, we are reduced to being just a people who share a darker pigmentation than others and thats it? I find the value of an African American woman to be invaluable and unique and black men should be recognized as the same. (even as many BM continue to struggle in establishing an identity in today's world). I'm not saying any accusations like that were made but I wanted to get that out of my system. 

Quite honestly, I think many black men have become very disenfranchised with the images and behaviors exhibited from the church. We have always viewed pastors / ministers as dedicated men of great conviction, worthy of deep respect and admiration because of their willingness to make great sacrifices for something they deeply believe in. Men associate with those traits because thats how it is to be a black man and when we fall short, we have someone to look up to. Our leaders in the church are truly seen as the ultimate father figures .

However, lately, million dollar parishes, pastors dressed in $1800 custom suits and driving $80,000 vehicles and giving more sermons about how to manage money, spend money and use money as a way to give blessings is leaving a bad taste in many mouths. There is no self sacrifice for faith. There is little modesty. They do not take a definitive stand on core beliefs. I understand that all ministers do not follow this protocol but they are still disturbing images nonetheless that affect the whole. The church has always been viewed as the rock in the community but when the rock seems corrupted then there is a ripple effect. A Black man's attendance in church are one of those effects. Granted this is not the same for all black men but it is a significant reason for many. 

The sad thing is that black men need the church now more than ever. A Christian only hurts himself when he believes he can stay close to the word of God through self teachings. Believe it or not, black men do have a strong belief in God but they lack cultivation therefore they lack growth and discipline so he will continue to be unbalanced.


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## tmichelle (Mar 21, 2007)

BlkManWithSomeSense said:
			
		

> I only date black women. I don't believe it has anything to do with any by product of slavery. All the women in my life that ever meant anything to me and helped build me to the man I am were black women, so my element of comfort is with a black woman. I have yet to find someone of another race who understands my hardships and triumphs as well as she does. You need only look to your radios, movies and cultural history to see our uniqueness and considerable contributions to society. And yet, now, when brought up in discussion of value and worth, we are reduced to being just a people who share a darker pigmentation than others and thats it? I find the value of an African American woman to be invaluable and unique and black men should be recognized as the same. (even as many BM continue to struggle in establishing an identity in today's world). I'm not saying any accusations like that were made but I wanted to get that out of my system.
> 
> Quite honestly, I think many black men have become very disenfranchised with the images and behaviors exhibited from the church. We have always viewed pastors / ministers as dedicated men of great conviction, worthy of deep respect and admiration because of their willingness to make great sacrifices for something they deeply believe in. Men associate with those traits because thats how it is to be a black man and when we fall short, we have someone to look up to. Our leaders in the church are truly seen as the ultimate father figures .
> 
> ...


 
I hear what you are saying, and quite honestly I hadn't thought about that as being one of the reasons black men have become less spiritual, but it makes sense.  Why do you think these mega rich pastors etc. have had MORE of a negative influence on the black male than female?


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## BlkManWithSomeSense (Mar 21, 2007)

tmichelle said:
			
		

> I hear what you are saying, and quite honestly I hadn't thought about that as being one of the reasons black men have become less spiritual, but it makes sense. Why do you think these mega rich pastors etc. have had MORE of a negative influence on the black male than female?


 
Good Question. Many blk men see these types of pastors as 'shams', classifying them as black versions of Jim Baker and Jimmy Swaggart, good speakers who were well versed on the bible, which made them all the more dangerous and unworthy of respect. Their flashiness betrays their sincerity. Our faith teaches us to be humble, strong and dedicated servants of God but they show images of materialism,vanity and greed. How strange it would seem to say to a child "_ Don't you want to be as rich and successful as Pastor James when you grow up?" _In essence,we think 'game recognizes game'. They have, in effect, brought the 'hustle' ( making a way in life any way you can with little scruples) inside the church. It would seem a contradiction to ask a BM to abandon his 'hustle' to enter theirs. 

As far as why this affects more men than women, I'm going to go out on a limb and say this.  I personally feel there is no one more loyal to their cause than a woman. When she puts her heart and soul into something, it's deeply personal and she is deeply committed. It would take a lot for her to question the direction of a church or the actions of a pastor. He would have to do something very obvious and overt for her to outright question his motives because it would be very hard to believe someone so well spoken and charismatic could be so corrupt. I think it's because men are naturally detached (to a degree) that we 'see' this more quickly. However, usually when we say something about it, we're discounted as being too cynical and feel we're just using it as an excuse to not go to church.

Men still have it their mind that a pastor is a humble servant of God. An embodiment of humility and compassion, forsaking all wordly loves for his love in the Lord. He doesn't just teach on Sunday. He forges and steers a community 7 days a week. The bigger megachurches grow, the less black men are likely to join.


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## Shimmie (Mar 21, 2007)

There was a time when you couldn't pay me to consider a Black man; they were the ones who hurt me and left me not understanding 'why.' The hurtful things they did, 'walled up' my spirit.  My heart was on lock down.   After a failed marriage, and an ex bf... there was nothing left for me to *trust* in.   

But  I've learned a beautiful lesson:  Deep in my heart, my choice was always within my race, but just not with the fool examples that gave me such a hard lesson.  I 'allowed' the attentions and affections of another culture to give the false impression that Black wasn't me.  But I was wrong....for no matter how kind, I could never give up enough of myself to love a white man. 

I've learned that I* can* respect and love a Black man, freely...AND without cost; without resistance; without doubt at all.   

We can't go by 'color' anymore... to the extent where we exclude the color of who we are; we just can't.  I want 'Black' first, and first again, and even again...Black first.   For while I was being pursued by White men, my heart couldn't yield.  No matter how flattering, I just couldn't yield.   For my heart was crying for him with skin Black like mine. 

(Selah)


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## Browndilocks (Mar 21, 2007)

Faith is definitely more important than race. Yet while I'm not out out there looking for anyone, I really don't think I'm open to dating outside of my race.  There would definitely have to be some sort of divine attraction there because white boys just don't do it for me.  Simple as that.


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## cocoberry10 (Mar 21, 2007)

BlkManWithSomeSense said:
			
		

> I only date black women. I don't believe it has anything to do with any by product of slavery. All the women in my life that ever meant anything to me and helped build me to the man I am were black women, so my element of comfort is with a black woman. I have yet to find someone of another race who understands my hardships and triumphs as well as she does. You need only look to radios, movies and cultural history to see our unique and considerable contributions to society. And yet, now, when brought up in discussion of value and worth, we are reduced to being just a people who share a darker pigmentation than others and thats it? I find the value of an African American woman to be invaluable and unique and black men should be recognized as the same. (even as many BM continue to struggle in establishing an identity in today's world). I'm not saying any accusations like that were made but I wanted to get that out of my system.
> 
> Quite honestly, I think many black men have become very disenfranchised with the images and behaviors exhibited from the church. We have always viewed pastors / ministers as dedicated men of great conviction, worthy of deep respect and admiration because of their willingness to make great sacrifices for something they deeply believe in. Men associate with those traits because thats how it is to be a black man and when we fall short, we have someone to look up to. Our leaders in the church are truly seen as the ultimate father figures .
> 
> ...





			
				BlkManWithSomeSense said:
			
		

> Good Question. Many blk men see these types of pastors as 'shams', classifying them as black versions of Jim Baker and Jimmy Swaggart, good speakers who were well versed on the bible, which made them all the more dangerous and unworthy of respect. Their flashiness betrays their sincerity. Our faith teaches us to be humble, strong and dedicated servants of God but they show images of materialism,vanity and greed. How strange it would seem to say to a child "_ Don't you want to be as rich and successful as Pastor James when you grow up?" _In essence,we think 'game recognizes game'. They have, in effect, brought the 'hustle' ( making a way in life any way you can with little scruples) inside the church. It would seem a contradiction to ask a BM to abandon his 'hustle' to enter theirs.
> 
> As far as why this affects more men than women, I'm going to go out on a limb and say this.  I personally feel there is no one more loyal to their cause than a woman. When she puts her heart and soul into something, it's deeply personal and she is deeply committed. It would take a lot for her to question the direction of a church or the actions of a pastor. He would have to do something very obvious and overt for her to outright question his motives because it would be very hard to believe someone so well spoken and charismatic could be so corrupt. I think it's because men are naturally detached (to a degree) that we 'see' this more quickly. However, usually when we say something about it, we're discounted as being too cynical and feel we're just using it as an excuse to not go to church.
> 
> Men still have it their mind that a pastor is a humble servant of God. An embodiment of humility and compassion, forsaking all wordly loves for his love in the Lord. He doesn't just teach on Sunday. He forges and steers a community 7 days a week. The bigger megachurches grow, the less black men are likely to join.



This is very well said, and I totally agree.  I have had some of my Black male friends say these things to me also, and I admit, I probably didn't realize how much of an effect the above had on them until you just said it.

I've also had a few mention that they feel the older Black men leave them behind.  As you mentioned about these "mega-pastors," some of my guy friends have said that they feel the hypocrisy.  We are a part of the "hip hop" generation (if you are under 40 I suppose).  And hip hop glorifies bling-bling unashamedly.

The church criticizes hip hop and "bling-bling," but many of these mega-pastors (and even pastors of non "mega" churches) enjoy the same bling bling lifestyle that these rappers/entertainers enjoy.

AND, many of these mega churches are in the poorest communities in town.  How many little boys aren't being saved by the church, but instead are ending up in gangs, dead, in prison, on drugs.  Oh, don't even get me started.  When I watched "The Wire," it haunted me so much to see how these young kids are getting into that lifestyle.  Where's the church?

I admit that I grew up in an upper middle class background, so I wasn't exposed to inner city life.  But when I got to college and met some of my Black male friends who were the first to go to college, they showed me how hard it had been.  I wonder, where was the church?  I have co-worker (older) who grew up with Snoop Dogg (and Cameron Diaz) and told me Snoop had been homeless.  I don't like the image he portrays, but where was the church for Snoop Dogg?

And as bad as I think hip hop portrays Blacks, I can admit that when these artists "make it," they use their money for good.  They go back to the communities and help those behind them.  The same can't be said for all churches.  It's sad, but true!  And we are the body of Christ.  I wonder what God looks down and says???


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## tmichelle (Mar 22, 2007)

BlkManWithSomeSense said:
			
		

> Good Question. Many blk men see these types of pastors as 'shams', classifying them as black versions of Jim Baker and Jimmy Swaggart, good speakers who were well versed on the bible, which made them all the more dangerous and unworthy of respect. Their flashiness betrays their sincerity. Our faith teaches us to be humble, strong and dedicated servants of God but they show images of materialism,vanity and greed. How strange it would seem to say to a child "_ Don't you want to be as rich and successful as Pastor James when you grow up?" _In essence,we think 'game recognizes game'. They have, in effect, brought the 'hustle' ( making a way in life any way you can with little scruples) inside the church. It would seem a contradiction to ask a BM to abandon his 'hustle' to enter theirs.
> 
> As far as why this affects more men than women, I'm going to go out on a limb and say this. I personally feel there is no one more loyal to their cause than a woman. When she puts her heart and soul into something, it's deeply personal and she is deeply committed. It would take a lot for her to question the direction of a church or the actions of a pastor. He would have to do something very obvious and overt for her to outright question his motives because it would be very hard to believe someone so well spoken and charismatic could be so corrupt. I think it's because men are naturally detached (to a degree) that we 'see' this more quickly. However, usually when we say something about it, we're discounted as being too cynical and feel we're just using it as an excuse to not go to church.
> 
> Men still have it their mind that a pastor is a humble servant of God. An embodiment of humility and compassion, forsaking all wordly loves for his love in the Lord. He doesn't just teach on Sunday. He forges and steers a community 7 days a week. The bigger megachurches grow, the less black men are likely to join.


 
I didn't think so many others saw what I saw in the "mega" era.  The church was so different for me growing up and still even now that the mega and hustle of these "men of the cloth" stands out to me, but I truly thought the everyone else bought into it.  When I have visited other churches such as the denomination my grandmother belonged to and watch these services on t.v. it seems everyone is so excited about something.  And it sure isn't the teaching because at many of the churches, the preacher has one passage of scripture and one point to make (which may or may not be accurate with scripture) which he then draws out for an hour with repetition and "wells".  I truly thought people loved this.  Wow, I'm a bit shocked to hear that it has had the negative impact that it has, but I suppose I shouldn't be at all surprised.  

What should we do?  All I can think of is we (as in you, me and anyone else reading this) need to be in serious prayer and perhaps fasting.  What do you think needs to be done?

On another note (and I mention this because I would be interested in hearing your thoughts or other's thoughts on this), I was observing that in my experience, blacks seem to acknowledge that their is a God, that He is divine more than any other race, but we also seem to have the most issues, ie. young mothers with several children from different men, drug addicitions, AIDS, prison, etc.  How can this be?  Many in these other races don't even believe there is a God so why are they doing so much better than we are (and I'm talking about choices we make not things that our out of our hands like the way others treat us).


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## tmichelle (Mar 22, 2007)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> There was a time when you couldn't pay me to consider a Black man; they were the ones who hurt me and left me not understanding 'why.' The hurtful things they did, 'walled up' my spirit. My heart was on lock down. After a failed marriage, and an ex bf... there was nothing left for me to *trust* in.
> 
> But I've learned a beautiful lesson: Deep in my heart, my choice was always within my race, but just not with the fool examples that gave me such a hard lesson. I 'allowed' the attentions and affections of another culture to give the false impression that Black wasn't me. But I was wrong....for no matter how kind, I could never give up enough of myself to love a white man.
> 
> ...


 
Well, reading this, I have to say I am so sorry for all the hurt you have been through!  I know you are probably over it by now, but just reading through your post makes it come to life for me.  Thanks for sharing your struggles and your ultimate conviction.  I am praying for the Lord to bring you a man that will love Him and bring you both closer to Him.  

But I'll have to smile if he brings you a non-black man  .  Which reminds me, there have been several occasions which have convinced me that God does indeed have a sense of humor.  You'll just have to promise that when you remarry you'll divulge the wedding pictures.


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## tmichelle (Mar 22, 2007)

cocoberry10 said:
			
		

> This is very well said, and I totally agree. I have had some of my Black male friends say these things to me also, and I admit, I probably didn't realize how much of an effect the above had on them until you just said it.
> 
> I've also had a few mention that they feel the older Black men leave them behind. As you mentioned about these "mega-pastors," some of my guy friends have said that they feel the hypocrisy. We are a part of the "hip hop" generation (if you are under 40 I suppose). And hip hop glorifies bling-bling unashamedly.
> 
> ...


 
What you've written is very convicting.  Many on my mother's side of the family are in a denomination where the congregations they attend have done and asked for things I'd never heard of such as extra collections for the pastor. Your offering goes into a little envelope and on the outside you can check different catagories that say such things like (and this isn't a quote because I can't remember exactly); happy pastor offering (which is a tip), special gift for the pastor, pastor's special fund, etc.  During service one pastor had the nerve to get up and let everyone know it was his wife's birthday and then passed the collection baskets around so people could give her money, and they did!  These congregations of which I write were housed in large oppulent buildings and although these were the poor areas of town, the pastors drove expensive cars.  

I'm sure these churches have special youth activities/programs, but what if these churches or I should say ALL churches resembled the church that Christ died for, what kind of an impact would that have?


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## cocoberry10 (Mar 22, 2007)

tmichelle said:
			
		

> What you've written is very convicting.  Many on my mother's side of the family are in a denomination where the congregations they attend have done and asked for things I'd never heard of such as extra collections for the pastor. Your offering goes into a little envelope and on the outside you can check different catagories that say such things like (and this isn't a quote because I can't remember exactly); happy pastor offering (which is a tip), special gift for the pastor, pastor's special fund, etc.  During service one pastor had the nerve to get up and let everyone know it was his wife's birthday and then passed the collection baskets around so people could give her money, and they did!  These congregations of which I write were housed in large oppulent buildings and although these were the poor areas of town, the pastors drove expensive cars.
> 
> I'm sure these churches have special youth activities/programs, but what if these churches or I should say ALL churches resembled the church that Christ died for, what kind of an impact would that have?



The church I'm currently attending will do this too (asking for an offering for the pastor).  Now, on special occasions (i.e. pastor's anniversary, etc.), I'm not against this.  Also, if there's a visiting pastor, I'm not against it.

However, the above examples you gave concern me. I know that not all pastors are "mega rich," but I just wonder...What is God thinking about this???


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## tmichelle (Mar 22, 2007)

Browndilocks said:
			
		

> Faith is definitely more important than race. Yet while I'm not out out there looking for anyone, I really don't think I'm open to dating outside of my race. There would definitely have to be some sort of *divine* *attraction* there because white boys just don't do it for me. Simple as that.


 
 Laughing at the phrase "divine attraction"


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## tmichelle (Mar 22, 2007)

cocoberry10 said:
			
		

> The church I'm currently attending will do this too (asking for an offering for the pastor). Now, on special occasions (i.e. pastor's anniversary, etc.), I'm not against this. Also, if there's a visiting pastor, I'm not against it.
> 
> However, the above examples you gave concern me. I know that not all pastors are "mega rich," but I just wonder...*What is God thinking about this*???


 
I'm wondering too.


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## BlkManWithSomeSense (Mar 22, 2007)

tmichelle said:
			
		

> I didn't think so many others saw what I saw in the "mega" era. The church was so different for me growing up and still even now that the mega and hustle of these "men of the cloth" stands out to me, but I truly thought the everyone else bought into it. When I have visited other churches such as the denomination my grandmother belonged to and watch these services on t.v. it seems everyone is so excited about something. And it sure isn't the teaching because at many of the churches, the preacher has one passage of scripture and one point to make (which may or may not be accurate with scripture) which he then draws out for an hour with repetition and "wells". I truly thought people loved this. Wow, I'm a bit shocked to hear that it has had the negative impact that it has, but I suppose I shouldn't be at all surprised.
> 
> What should we do? All I can think of is we (as in you, me and anyone else reading this) need to be in serious prayer and perhaps fasting. What do you think needs to be done?
> 
> On another note (and I mention this because I would be interested in hearing your thoughts or other's thoughts on this), I was observing that in my experience, blacks seem to acknowledge that their is a God, that He is divine more than any other race, but we also seem to have the most issues, ie. young mothers with several children from different men, drug addicitions, AIDS, prison, etc. How can this be? Many in these other races don't even believe there is a God so why are they doing so much better than we are (and I'm talking about choices we make not things that our out of our hands like the way others treat us).


 
I personally believe, as many have obtained higher social statuses and enjoyed greater financial prosperity, their priorities have unwittingly changed. Self empowerment has grown to such a level that it has brought upon an arrogant and stubborn streak that deeply taints our ministry and the people. No longer does our teachings and faith remain a clear and vibrant voice of consciousness. Instead, it is has now become a faint whisper, only to be heard in the dark during periods of great loss, crisis and trepidation. This reduction of consciousness has created compromises that has left ourselves open to conflicts of interest between our religious beliefs and our personal relationships. 

Many of the 'sheep's in wolf clothing' pastors have created 'safe' ministries. Sermons that do not rock the boat, threaten or offend. They have mellowed the impact of consequences and encourage less judgmental behavior, stressing the intention of the heart than the action of the person (with an underlying emphasis on finance). This will allow people to enjoy their conflicting lives, continue to be Christians,and enjoy effective 'leadership'. I personally think these types of pastors have deeply fractured the black community against the 'old school' beliefs of accountability and the 'new school' beliefs of compromise. 

I don't know if it will be possible for our community to get back on track. The bedrock of our community is the church and thats as fragmented as it's people. Many know that the core beliefs of the church would never agree nor compromise with some of the choices and actions made by some. So rather than abandon and reevaluate priorities, some people would rather leave well enough alone, ultimately feeling that as bad as things are, it would be worse to lose personal indulgances they currently enjoy, which is why others that do not believe in God seem to be doing better in the social issues you mentioned. 

I beleve we are affected the most by this inner turmoil because african americans have always maintained an intimate connection to the church.


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## BlkManWithSomeSense (Mar 22, 2007)

tmichelle said:
			
		

> I'm wondering too.


 
I've also wondered but I sure hope he has a good sense of humor.


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## cocoberry10 (Mar 22, 2007)

BlkManWithSomeSense said:
			
		

> I personally believe, as many have obtained higher social statuses and enjoyed greater financial prosperity, their priorities have unwittingly changed. Self empowerment has grown to such a level that it has brought upon an arrogant and stubborn streak that deeply taints our ministry and the people. No longer does our teachings and faith remain a clear and vibrant voice of consciousness. Instead, it is has now become a faint whisper, only to be heard in the dark during periods of great loss, crisis and trepidation. This reduction of consciousness has created compromises that has left ourselves open to conflicts of interest between our religious beliefs and our personal relationships.
> 
> *Many of the 'sheep's in wolf clothing' pastors have created 'safe' ministries. Sermons that do not rock the boat, threaten or offend. They have mellowed the impact of consequences and encourage less judgmental behavior, stressing the intention of the heart than the action of the person (with an underlying emphasis on finance). *This will allow people to enjoy their conflicting lives, continue to be Christians,and enjoy effective 'leadership'. I personally think these types of pastors have deeply fractured the black community against the 'old school' beliefs of accountability and the 'new school' beliefs of compromise.
> 
> ...



Very well said.  I think it's impossible for men to respect the leaders of the church when they are living very similarly to those that they "criticize," and this extends outside of the Black community (think Ted Haggard).  When Jesse Jackson's infidelity was discovered, it was almost like, "who cares," was the response of the Black community.

AND, he had the nerve to say "well I was separated from my wife."  Negro, you are a minister!  Separation does not equal divorce.  Don't even make excuses, just APOLOGIZE!  I admit, I'm not, nor have I ever been a fan of Jesse Jackson, so it's tough to justify his crap!

I say this, b/c I know A LOT of good black men.  I too struggle at times through some of my experiences with Black men, thinking "are they getting worse, etc.?"  But then the Holy Spirit will whisper the name of a good black man.  Yes, my father is a good black man and so are many of his friends, but they are older.  I'm only in my 20's.  So when I start thinking these young men are (whatever I think), the Holy Spirit will whisper the name of someone who is good and remind me not to always look at someone's actions, b/c there may be things I can't see that explain why someone acts the way they do.


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## Shimmie (Mar 22, 2007)

tmichelle said:
			
		

> Well, reading this, I have to say I am so sorry for all the hurt you have been through! I know you are probably over it by now, but just reading through your post makes it come to life for me. Thanks for sharing your struggles and your ultimate conviction. I am praying for the Lord to bring you a man that will love Him and bring you both closer to Him.
> 
> But I'll have to smile if he brings you a non-black man  . Which reminds me, there have been several occasions which have convinced me that God does indeed have a sense of humor. *You'll just have to promise that when you remarry you'll divulge the wedding pictures*.


 
Me? Wedding Pictures?  I'd love to 'see' them myself...  

(other text deleted by Shimmie)....


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## cocoberry10 (Mar 22, 2007)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> Me? Wedding Pictures?  I'd love to 'see' them myself...
> 
> I Need everyone's Perspective,* especially 'you' BMWSS -* your insight will help tremendously with this.  Here goes....
> 
> ...



I'm definitely not BMWSS  , so I won't even try to answer as well as I know he will, but here's my take on it.

I had some of the same struggles as you.  I've never been married and haven't been in an "abusive" relationship, but I had excellent examples of Black men.  My dad is a great black man, and I have some great uncles and play uncles and cousins, etc.  I did also have some negative examples within my family, but I overlooked them b/c I didn't think they were the "norm."  Furthermore, I believe in turning negatives into positives, so I learned "from them," (i.e. I won't marry a man who is unfaithful to his wife, or who mistreats her, etc.--get my drift? )

Well, as I became old enough to date, I started seeing Black men who degraded Black women.  Insulting them.  Calling them unattractive, fat, attitudinal. Men who made excuses for why they didn't like or date Black women.  Black men who insulted Black women saying they were "too black" or "too light."  This really hurt me.  In my household, Black was Black.  And Black was beautiful.  It caused me to start doubting myself.  And it made me become more cynical and negative towards Black men.  I started focusing on those that were negative.  Mind you, 100 Black men could call me beautiful, or compliment me, but I was going to focus on the one that insulted us.  And I have to take responsibility for that.  Start forcing yourself to notice the men that aren't that way (outside your family, b/c they are there).  The Black man who holds the door open for you--he doesn't have to--he probably doesn't even know you.  The one that tells you, you are pretty.  The one that smiles at you.  Stop noticing the ones that are not worthy.  Because in every race there are good and bad.  Unfortunately, because the media loves to exploit our race, many of our "examples," of Black men represent the bad, not the good.  Kanye's mutt comments (I won't even go there).  The rap lyrics calling women *****es and hoes.  The movies that depict us negatively.  The Black men who publicly denigrate their race by saying that Black women are __________ (fill in the blank).  All men DON'T THINK LIKE THIS!  

And it's funny, b/c with all our self-hatred issues (see off-topic posts), and our horrid history in this country...I still see us trying soooooooooo desperately to love one another.  Whenever I go somewhere that my people are, I see us trying to fellowship with one another.  Trying to "hold on" to traditions, and maintain that brotherhood/sisterhood.

I'm in a sorority, as are many of my non-Black friends.  And let me tell you something.  It's not the same.  Black frats and sororities are connected in a brotherly/sisterly way that you don't see with white ones.  They don't stay connected after college.  We do.  We stay connected.  In the Black church, we have picnics, and family reunions, b/c we want that bond.

Even a lot of Black men who do date outside the race, often end up marrying a black woman.  And many that don't say they secretly wish they could marry a black woman.  Because there's nothing like being Black.

And everyone but us knows this.  That's why they steal our style, our culture.  When I was in Japan, you should have seen these kids trying to be "us" with their hair and dress.  They love our music, our style.  Of all the genre's of music that are popular worldwide, hip hop is the most popular.  Oh, if we could only love ourselves as much as others love us.  We would blow this world to bits!


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## PaperClip (Mar 22, 2007)

tmichelle said:
			
		

> What you've written is very convicting. Many on my mother's side of the family are in a denomination where the congregations they attend have done and asked for things I'd never heard of such as extra collections for the pastor. Your offering goes into a little envelope and on the outside you can check different catagories that say such things like (and this isn't a quote because I can't remember exactly); happy pastor offering (which is a tip), special gift for the pastor, pastor's special fund, etc. During service one pastor had the nerve to get up and let everyone know it was his wife's birthday and then passed the collection baskets around so people could give her money, and they did! These congregations of which I write were housed in large oppulent buildings and although these were the poor areas of town, the pastors drove expensive cars.
> 
> I'm sure these churches have special youth activities/programs, but what if these churches or I should say ALL churches resembled the church that Christ died for, what kind of an impact would that have?


 
Hmmm.... Maybe because I have been taught differently, I have to temper my knee-jerk reaction when I hear or read about the topic of "extra collections" for the pastor, if you will.

*1 Timothy 5:17*
Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of *double* *honour*, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. (KJV)

Elders who do their work well should be respected and paid well,[a] especially those who work hard at both preaching and teaching. (NLV)

The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.

This is my go-to scripture to respond to this line of subject matter. I know that I can say that my pastor is worthy to be counted of double honor and he does WORK HARD at both preaching and teaching and directing the affairs of the church. Notice that it DOES NOT say "GOOD" or "BEST", or even "PERFECT". It says work hard, doing one's best and operating in integrity. I have been with my church for close to 20 years. I have served as the secretary of my pastor's wife for a long time. I also worked in church ministry full time at one point in my life. I have traveled with my pastor and family (they took me on my first plane ride AND my first cruise). I have seen my pastor build HIS OWN business/entrepreneurial activities along with serving FULL-TIME as church pastor. Why? Because he has an interest in business and because he knows and recognizes that a REAL pastor does not go into church ministry to MAKE MONEY (there's scripture for this). I KNOW it is a full-time gig because when I have travelled with them and the pastor's cell phone RANG OFF THE HOOK... why? Because God's man don't get time off!

Unlike these corporate jobs or even basic service jobs where the EARTHLY market sets the compensation rates, the salary rates for a pastor cannot be set by earthly means. At my church, we give (or I should say we have the OPPORTUNITY to give for pastor's anniversary, pastor's and the pastor's wife's birthday, Mother's Day, Father's Day, and Christmas). Like I said, I don't have a problem giving for ANY of these because I love my spiritual parents dearly and they have been there for me countless ways and times. I can't pay them for how they have blessed my life and helped me get to know the Lord better so I can have MY OWN relationship with the Lord. 

And when people bring in the rich pastor, poor congregation point in, again, put it in the proper context. Some people think giving to the church is a gamble (like the casino), like a membership (to a club). The church is NOT a bank, a mortgage company, a utility payment loan center. It is the house of God. It is there to HELP people who are truly in need, not those who made poor choices or tried to skip over biblical principles of FAITH and OBEDIENCE. 

Let me be clear, I know that there are some pastors who do rape the flock, so to speak. They're going to have to answer to God for that, just like we all have to stand before our Lord Jesus Christ and answer for what we did and did not do. So if a pastor decides to up and steal the tithes and/or the offerings or decides to burn them in the church's chicken BBQ pit, I can still stand before my God and say I did what I was supposed to do.

I think calling the "happy pastor offering" a tip is YOUR own interpretation and I will also say that it is uninformed to an extent. There are PLENTY of examples in the Bible when a person encountered a (true) prophet/man of God and was CHALLENGED to act on faith by giving (I'm thinking of the woman who built a room for the prophet and the lady who was going to make the last of food for she and her son to die). In both of those stories, these women acted on FAITH (nobody put a proverbial gun to their heads) and the Lord responded to their faith and blessed them as never before.

Finally, I would encourage ANYONE who has doubts or concerns about a pastor and the issues with money is to talk to that pastor's boss. His name is JESUS CHRIST and trust, the Lord will first of all, love and comfort you about your concerns and then tell you in His sweet, gentle way to let Him handle His own "employees".

God bless.


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## tmichelle (Mar 22, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> Hmmm.... Maybe because I have been taught differently, I have to temper my knee-jerk reaction when I hear or read about the topic of "extra collections" for the pastor, if you will.
> 
> *1 Timothy 5:17*
> Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of *double* *honour*, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. (KJV)
> ...


 
Ouch!  Looks like I have offended.

NASB
17(AF)The elders who (AG)rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who (AH)work hard at preaching and teaching. 
 18For the Scripture says, "(AI)YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING," and "(AJ)The laborer is worthy of his wages." 

I have NO problem and greatly believe in paying the elders, but I don't think this verse means that they should be taking up collections for themselves at every chance they get and asking for special ones just because it's their wife's birthday.  And I know for a fact that some of the people giving money (my family) were a lot less well off than the pastor.  Double honor *DOES NOT* mean rolling in it and asking for more when the flock is struggling.  (Nor does it mean having your own parking space in the front of the building where everyone else has to look at your late model jaguar and the truly elderly can't even easily access the building because the car is in the way. Which is another thing I've seen).  Also the rich pastor/poor church is not always because these people made bad choices.  Yes many of them did, but not all.  In fact, where does God promise us that our monetary blessings will be linked to our spirituality?  Some people are poor despite making good choices.  Sometimes, God allows people to represent Him in this world who aren't rich.

(Also, the Happy Pastor Offering meaning a tip, was NOT my interpretation as you have stated, I actually asked my Aunt who told me). 

So if you want to give money for your pastor (and his wife) for every occasion, fine by me, but it is TACKY at best and GREEDY at worst to ask for more $$$ from the flock (to buy your luxury car with), double honors notwithstanding.  BTW, in the examples you gave:

1.the Widow of Zaraphath and Elijah, he did not ask for food so that he could stock up his pantry (as are many of the pastors with their excessive collections).  

2. Elisha and the Shunamite woman (the one who built a room for him) if your remember, Elisha did not ASK for it as are so many of these pastors


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## Shimmie (Mar 22, 2007)

togethernessinchrist said:
			
		

> I'm open to dating outside of my race, but it's not so much the race that matters...it's the lifestyle/perspective. When I close my eyes and think of a man, he's *black *but that's *by default*. I'd date outside. =)


 
"Black by Default"... 

When I read this, it ministered to me.  It's 'beyond' natural for me to be attracted to a Black Man.  By default, by set design, I yield to Black.

I'm not saying that God isn't blending and mending the races.  I *'know'* that He is.  I have too many family and friends who are in IR relationships and they are very happy.  I think it's beautiful.  These marriages were also a result of prayer...'marriage prayers' that God allowed me to be a part of. AND it blows me away to see the 'fruit' of these prayers that God allowed to flow through me.   Praise Him! 

But when *"I" *tried to go 'White', it never felt right.  I thought it was and for a long time, it looked as if I was going to be among my IR friends.  But the tables changed...for me in my perspective.  My heart was not complete.  There was something not quite right in me.   

Now I know why.... My heart is yielded "Black by Default."   

TogethernessinChrist..."Thank You"....   ((( Hugs )))


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## Shimmie (Mar 22, 2007)

tmichelle said:
			
		

> Ouch! Looks like I have offended.
> 
> NASB
> 17(AF)The elders who (AG)rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who (AH)work hard at preaching and teaching.
> ...


 
BMWSS Nailed IT !!!!  And then you gave it the extra whack!  

The Pastors I have now, I love and would give them whatever I have.  They are just that important to me in my life.  They mentor me, and have taken me into their hearts and lives as one of their own...family wise.   We love each other without reserve.  They encourage my ministry.  

The thing is, they are extremely humble.  They don't demand or manipulate scripture to get people to give more money.   It's in this respect, that I sincerely do understand Relaxer Rehab.  

*On the other hand* I was under a ministry that* DID* milk the offerings and people were in dire straits if they didn't 'give'.   

When God gives us substance, we have 'seed for sowing and bread for eating'.  There is a certain amount that we are to give and I don't have a problem with that.   But I DO have a problem when one is made to feel pressured into giving away their 'bread money'.

A gift should always be by choice...not asked for or forced.   It makes me wonder why I have to ask for a gift when it's my birthday.   People who love you, just automatically 'give' without having to be asked.  I mean, hello???  

Be a man or a wife of the Church.  Present your husband or wife with a beautiful arrangement of roses and have the congregation sing Happy Birthday or Happy Anniverisary or whatever.   NOW, afterwards, anyone, without being asked is welcome to extend the gift, if they so choose.  

Too many ministries have far too much financially and materially and they really have no business asking for more.  

There has to be a line drawn...
However, *the lines have been 'BLURRED'*  by selfishness to have more, more, more.  

II Thessolonians 3:  

7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; 

8 Neither did we eat any man's *BREAD* for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you: 


````````````
Hey ... BTW:  My birthday is one month from today, Saturday, April 21.  Ummmm, let's see,


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## PaperClip (Mar 22, 2007)

tmichelle said:
			
		

> Ouch! Looks like I have offended.
> 
> NASB
> 17(AF)The elders who (AG)rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who (AH)work hard at preaching and teaching.
> ...


 
Here's the thing: we all have free will. We all have the opportunity to take part or not in giving an OFFERING versus a COLLECTION, which sounds like the people are being usurped out of their meek and lowly coins. Offering is "active", a collection is "passive". The Bible says to give WILLINGLY, CHEERFULLY, WITHOUT FORCE. So why participate in a COLLECTION with a jacked-up attitude? Who is one trying to impress with participating in all those collections? That sounds like a PERSONAL SITUATION and projecting the frustration on the pastor's car or house is a deep misdirection of anger if one's financial situation is suffering. All that debt and trouble didn't happen overnight. Again, this goes back to the individual relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord will lead and guide concerning giving OFFERINGS IF YOU ASK HIM.

Now, with regard to the rich pastor, poor congregation: everybody in the congregation ain't poor. Don't be fooled by that one. Being in church my WHOLE life, I've seen this over and over: SOME people DO WHAT THEY WANT TO DO WITH THEIR MONEY. They BUY what the WANT and BEG for what they NEED.

I'm not giving my tithes and offerings to the pastor. I BRING them to the Lord through my local assembly (church). I am grateful that I do not have to be concerned that my pastor is taking the tithes and doing wrong with them. But I'll say this once again: if (God forbid) he got led astray, I can still stand before the Lord with my head held high because I did what I was supposed to do. With regard to participating in the so-called "extra" offerings? Again, it's easy to give to a person who has been such a blessing to my life. I mean DIRECT impact. And you know what else? My personal testimony is that when I practice Luke 6:38: *"Give, and it will be given to you. You will have more than enough. It can be pushed down and shaken together and it will still run over as it is given to you. The way you give to others is the way you will receive in return" *let me tell you, I have EVERYTHING I need and want. I have not gone without, and that's with being laid off since 2003. Right now I'm a full-time graduate student working on my doctorate in education...on FULL SCHOLARSHIP! FULL SCHOLARSHIP! I drove a FORD ESCORT for almost 10 years with some of the original parts. When I finally had to let it go and I didn't know what I was going to do to get back and forth to school, know that within a couple of hours, I was driving a new-to-me car off the lot with NO CAR NOTE. 

1.the Widow of Zaraphath and Elijah, he did not ask for food so that he could stock up his pantry (as are many of the pastors with their excessive collections). BUT HE DID ASK THE WIDOW FOR SOMETHING. SHE HAD FREE WILL. SHE COULD HAVE SAID NO. AND SHE COULD HAVE DIED AND WE WOULD NOT BE TALKING ABOUT HER TODAY. BUT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HER BECAUSE SHE G-A-V-E TO THE MAN OF GOD. SHE GAVE OUT OF FAITH AND OBEDIENCE.

2. Elisha and the Shunamite woman (the one who built a room for him) if your remember, Elisha did not ASK for it as are so many of these pastors
SEE ANSWER TO NO. 1. AND THIS ALSO BRINGS IN THIS SCRIPTURE: 
"A man's *gift* maketh *room* for him, and bringeth him before great men." (*Proverbs 18:16*) 
"A gift opens the way for the giver and ushers him into the presence of the great."

LET'S READ A BIT MORE ABOUT THIS SHUNAMITE WOMAN: THE PROPHET ELISHA ASKED HER WHAT SHE WANTED (BECAUSE SHE HAD GIVEN TO HIM OUT OF FAITH AND OBEDIENCE). SHE SAID SHE WANTED A CHILD. SHE HAD A CHILD A YEAR LATER, RIGHT? THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT MONEY COULD NOT BUY. AND THEN WHEN THAT SAME CHILD WAS THOUGHT TO BE DEAD. SHE CALLED ON THE PROPHET OF GOD AND HE CAME AND HE PRAYED AND HER BABY CAME BACK TO LIFE. THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT THE MONEY SHE HAD COULD NOT BUY.

(did the ALL CAPS above only to distinguish my answer from your remarks in the above section).


So you know it's really not about the money. It's about the FAITH and OBEDIENCE of the gift giver. 

(Mark 12:41-43 and Luke 21:1-4)

And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much. 
And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing. 
And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

Big differences between ASKING, OPENING THE OPPORTUNITY, SEDUCING, and FORCING a person to do something. And again, some pastors may do this and they will have to answer to God for what they do. And at the same time, a person even TRYING to have a relationship with the Lord will go to the LORD and ask Him for direction about remaining at that church. 

And to Dear Shimmie: I'm glad to read that you understand where I'm coming from. You're like a cyber big sister to me... always looking out for me.... ((((HUGS))))


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## upandcoming (Mar 22, 2007)

Hey ladies,
I'm glad to see this thread is still popping. You know, lately I've been having thoughts about having a child - not anytime soon of course - but just...I would like a husband and I would like to have a child as well. I'm praying that God will put me in a position where I can be with someone who HE wants me to be with because...when it comes down to it, households are the foundation of society. 

Now, not every household will look the same - some will be single women, others will be divorcees or windows whatever...but the point isthese households are the foundation of society. We can have all of the volunteer organizations and self help organizations we want, but if we can't get our households straight, little will change.

Why am I saying this? I think it's SO important to be with someone who is trying to live for God and willing to put the time and energy into being  a parent. Also someone who loves you and wants to make you relationship a beautiful ministry. I don't feel a calling to 'ordained' ministry but I definitely know I have a calling for certain types of work and I want to work on it. I pray that the man I will be with has a similar mindset and will challenge me, teach me, be a man...=)

And I pray that I can support him 100%.I want us to be lifelong friends. 

I think God's telling me that not now, but iwthin a year or so, Ill be ready to start a relationship...there are just a few things I know I need to do, and there are some things God wants me to do...

I really love this thread. =) 

BTW Mrs. Shimmie, don't thank me! =P 

Take care you guys, sorry for the long rant...


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## upandcoming (Mar 22, 2007)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> "Black by Default"...
> 
> When I read this, it ministered to me. It's 'beyond' natural for me to be attracted to a Black Man. By default, by set design, I yield to Black.
> 
> ...


 
(((Hugs))) I don't really know WHY I feel that way, maybe its because I have black skin and my family is black so whenever I think of my family, it's black. There's NOTHING wrong with interracial dating and I've been interested in a man or two outside of my race but...it's just a fact that I imagine black. =)


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## tmichelle (Mar 22, 2007)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> BMWSS Nailed IT !!!! And then you gave it the extra whack!
> 
> The Pastors I have now, I love and would give them whatever I have. They are just that important to me in my life. They mentor me, and have taken me into their hearts and lives as one of their own...family wise. We love each other without reserve. They encourage my ministry.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks, this about summed up my thoughts on the question.


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## tmichelle (Mar 22, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> Here's the thing: we all have free will. We all have the opportunity to take part or not in giving an OFFERING versus a COLLECTION, which sounds like the people are being usurped out of their meek and lowly coins. Offering is "active", a collection is "passive". The Bible says to give WILLINGLY, CHEERFULLY, WITHOUT FORCE. So why participate in a COLLECTION with a jacked-up attitude? Who is one trying to impress with participating in all those collections? That sounds like a PERSONAL SITUATION and projecting the frustration on the pastor's car or house is a deep misdirection of anger if one's financial situation is suffering. All that debt and trouble didn't happen overnight. Again, this goes back to the individual relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord will lead and guide concerning giving OFFERINGS IF YOU ASK HIM.
> 
> Now, with regard to the rich pastor, poor congregation: everybody in the congregation ain't poor. Don't be fooled by that one. Being in church my WHOLE life, I've seen this over and over: SOME people DO WHAT THEY WANT TO DO WITH THEIR MONEY. They BUY what the WANT and BEG for what they NEED.
> 
> ...


 
I don't want to be misunderstood, I'm with you when it comes to giving.  I'm all for it!  It's the other side, the asking for more from the flock when you already have an excessive amount that I have a problem with.


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## Shimmie (Mar 22, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> Here's the thing: we all have free will. We all have the opportunity to take part or not in giving an OFFERING versus a COLLECTION, which sounds like the people are being usurped out of their meek and lowly coins. Offering is "active", a collection is "passive". The Bible says to give WILLINGLY, CHEERFULLY, WITHOUT FORCE. So why participate in a COLLECTION with a jacked-up attitude? Who is one trying to impress with participating in all those collections? That sounds like a PERSONAL SITUATION and projecting the frustration on the pastor's car or house is a deep misdirection of anger if one's financial situation is suffering. All that debt and trouble didn't happen overnight. Again, this goes back to the individual relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord will lead and guide concerning giving OFFERINGS IF YOU ASK HIM.
> 
> Now, with regard to the rich pastor, poor congregation: everybody in the congregation ain't poor. Don't be fooled by that one. Being in church my WHOLE life, I've seen this over and over: SOME people DO WHAT THEY WANT TO DO WITH THEIR MONEY. They BUY what the WANT and BEG for what they NEED.
> 
> ...


 
Bigger hugs to you too, angel.    I'm in love with my Pastors, and just like you, giving to them is as easy as breathing.  I also can attest to the 'blessings' of being a tither and a giver...to the Right ground.  You and I have been blessed with good ground to plant our seed into... indeed. 

I also believe tmichelle feels the same.  And the same with BMWSS.  It's just that our 'faith' has been taken to the limits and beyond with all of the flash and commercialism.    

Sadly, I've lived in both realms of the ministry.   The Humble and the 'Takers'.  And it's running over the edge.  It's spreading like a mudslide which is worse than a water flood.   For mud sucks one under and suffocates them.   You can't float in mud.  In water, you still have a chance to float and be seen for rescue.  

There's something in the Church which is just so wrong.   How many houses does one really need?   How many cars?   The boundary lines are being blurred and in many cases erased.   And we can't ignore it any more.

BMWSS spoke of the humble.  The moderate.   The true ministers of God.  Where are they?   Those we have are now outnumbered by the ones who have only the glitst and glamour....    Does it take all of that to do what God called us to do?   Preach the Gospel to all the nations.   

I mean really.  Isn't that money that can be better used to help others who don't come close to having a decent home; a decent meal; a decent winter coat.  I wonder...how much more house is needed?   When more needs to be done in the Kingdom?  

Rehab you and I have a gift that is so rare...a humble man and woman of God...we have our very own Elijah's and Elisha's.    

You're my precious little sister for always...    I hear you and I hear the others too.   Guess what?   So do you.   (((( hugs ))))


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## Shimmie (Mar 22, 2007)

togethernessinchrist said:
			
		

> Hey ladies,
> I'm glad to see this thread is still popping. You know, lately I've been having thoughts about having a child - not anytime soon of course - but just...I would like a husband and I would like to have a child as well. I'm praying that God will put me in a position where I can be with someone who HE wants me to be with because...when it comes down to it, households are the foundation of society.
> 
> Now, not every household will look the same - some will be single women, others will be divorcees or windows whatever...but the point isthese households are the foundation of society. We can have all of the volunteer organizations and self help organizations we want, but if we can't get our households straight, little will change.
> ...


 
  You called me '*Mrs*. Shimmie'      Oh this is too funny.   

I'm gonna 'run' with it and make the field goal.    
I just have to be 'found' by *Mr. Shimmie*...  This is too funny.

Your really do have it 'togetherinChrist'.    First, I'm 'Black by Default'   and now 'Mrs. Shimmie"....

Girl, you really made my day... ((( hugs ))))


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## PaperClip (Mar 22, 2007)

tmichelle said:
			
		

> I don't want to be misunderstood, I'm with you when it comes to giving. I'm all for it! It's the other side, the asking for more from the flock when you already have an excessive amount that I have a problem with.


 
Ok... I want to be understood as well so allow me to be very clear about a couple of things. I don't see anything wrong with asking because every organized entity on the planet (including religion) ask members of its society for things to survive (whatever those things may be, but usually the one thing that any organized/civilized society asks for is money).

People do what they want to do. They BUY what they WANT and BEG for what they NEED. The simple thing for all of us to do is to SEEK THE LORD about giving in the offering. And why stay at a church where that continues to happen and it doesn't sit right with one's spirit? 

It has yet to be (scientifically) demonstrated to me how the "wealth" of the pastor automatically equates to the "poverty" of the people? One person's excessive might be another person's poverty. Who makes one person's estimation of excessive-ness (is that a word?) more credible than the other? I am not advocating for the pastor to fleece the flock. I am not saying that at all. And sooner or later the people will "speak with their feet" and leave that church.


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## tmichelle (Mar 22, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> Ok... I want to be understood as well so allow me to be very clear about a couple of things. I don't see anything wrong with asking because every organized entity on the planet (including religion) ask members of its society for things to survive (whatever those things may be, but usually the one thing that any organized/civilized society asks for is money).
> 
> People do what they want to do. They BUY what they WANT and BEG for what they NEED. The simple thing for all of us to do is to SEEK THE LORD about giving in the offering. And why stay at a church where that continues to happen and it doesn't sit right with one's spirit?
> 
> It has yet to be (scientifically) demonstrated to me how the "wealth" of the pastor automatically equates to the "poverty" of the people? One person's excessive might be another person's poverty. Who makes one person's estimation of excessive-ness (is that a word?) more credible than the other? I am not advocating for the pastor to fleece the flock. I am not saying that at all.* And sooner or later the people will "speak with their feet" and leave that church.*




The bolded portion is what brings us full circle. BMWSS was stating just that.  He theorized this is exactly why men are leaving the church which brought this whole line of discourse up.


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## BlkManWithSomeSense (Mar 23, 2007)

We all know that there is considerable ambiguity in the word. Thats a good thing because such open interpretation of it's principals create the flexibility to "update" yet maintain our beliefs as times change and we continue to evolve. However, in the wrong hands, such ambiguities would be a playground for a devils' advocate. It is important that we not only protect our existence and effectiveness as Christians but also against those who would pervert or manipulate the spiritual intent of our ministry.

Relaxer, you asked "who" makes the determination of what is just and what is not pertaining to the estimation of excess. As you know, there is no one human authority. I personally feel we ALL share the authority to make such a determination. Anyone who claims Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior is immediately enabled with the right to question the direction of our leadership to insure we are staying the course. We are a body of people who are governed and led by the holy spirit and every day we walk in faith and not by sight. Our spirit leads us in all decisions and interpretations and so we must act accordingly when faced with moments where we see no obvious wrong but our spirit is nonetheless uneased. 

I am personally unaccustomed to pastors who are also businessmen. I have seen businessmen become deacons and other officers of the church but usually the pastor's position is full time and he dedicates himself fully to the betterment of his congregation. (I know there are some pastors who own business but thats usually because he leads a very small congregation that cannot afford to sustain him financially but once the numbers reach a level, at some point he commits full time.) 

If the pastor runs a business while he is in term, is that not a possible conflict? Even if thats not deemed a conflict, what image is it sending? Images are important in the ministry. The image of a virtuous woman. The image of a being saved. The image of unification. We Christians, of all people, know the importance of projecting a proper image but I fear many are straying away from spiritual intuition and relying on obvious errors in judgment. How likely is that to happen? I feel it does send a mixed message when the pastor is 'flaunting his wealth', preaching humility but throwing guilt trips on church members for not giving more.

I remember asking the kids who did they consider great men in the ministry. My son said " TD Jakes is a great man (pause)and his Black Expedition with the tint windows is the Bomb! When you gonna get a suit like his?" My daughter said " I like the black muscle man who talks (Eddie Long) because he's a good speaker." Granted their ages are just 13 and 11 but there is no better truth than through the eyes of babes.


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## cocoberry10 (Mar 23, 2007)

BlkManWithSomeSense said:
			
		

> I am personally unaccustomed to pastors who are also businessmen.
> 
> If the pastor runs a business while he is in term, is that not a possible conflict? Even if thats not deemed a conflict, what image is it sending? Images are important in the ministry. The image of a virtuous woman. The image of a being saved. The image of unification. We Christians, of all people, know the importance of projecting a proper image but I fear many are straying away from spiritual intuition and relying on obvious errors in judgment. How likely is that to happen? I feel it does send a mixed message when the pastor is 'flaunting his wealth', preaching humility but throwing guilt trips on church members for not giving more.
> 
> I remember asking the kids who did they consider great men in the ministry. My son said " TD Jakes is a great man (pause)and his Black Expedition with the tint windows is the Bomb! When you gonna get a suit like his?" My daughter said " I like the black muscle man who talks (Eddie Long) because he's a good speaker." Granted their ages are just 13 and 11 but there is no better truth than through the eyes of babes.



Very well said.  I guess I don't have a problem with a pastor having his own business outside the church.  However, many of these pastors are running "businesses" within the church. Like it's Jesus, Inc.

Now, don't get me wrong.  I understand that there is a business side to church, and without organization, a church can't be run efficiently.  But it seems like everything these days is for sale, or comes with a price.  There are churches that won't marry you or bury you, if you don't tithe in their church.  I would like to know the biblical reference that makes this okay, b/c I scratch my head at the thought.  I could even see if they charged a fee for use of their building (I mean you are using heat, lights, energy, etc.).  But refusing to marry or bury you b/c you don't tithe!?  What would Jesus say?  What would Jesus do?

I admit that even I've found myself feeling "guilty," like I'm not giving enough financially in my church, even when I am tithing.

But tying this back into the topic (about Black women only looking for Black men), I have another theory on how the church may be "pushing" Black men away.  It's only one reason.

After speaking with some more people, it seems some Black men see these pastors as modern day "pimps," especially Eddie Long with his "muscle shirts." 

Also, these pastors get up and preach, knowing they have all kinds of dirt in their pasts (and some in their present lives  ). Many of these pastors have divorced, have fathered children out of wedlock (even after becoming pastors), are closeted homosexuals, and do all other kinds of things.  I'm not preaching against any of the above, but if you were a Black man who didn't grow up with an example of a man, and you go to church looking for a Godly man in your pastor, and you find the same "filth" you find in the streets, wouldn't you not want to stay?  Just food for thought (sorry for the run-on sentences, but luckily this isn't English class!)


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## BlkManWithSomeSense (Mar 23, 2007)

cocoberry10 said:
			
		

> Very well said. I guess I don't have a problem with a pastor having his own business outside the church. However, many of these pastors are running "businesses" within the church. Like it's Jesus, Inc.
> 
> Now, don't get me wrong. I understand that there is a business side to church, and without organization, a church can't be run efficiently. But it seems like everything these days is for sale, or comes with a price. There are churches that won't marry you or bury you, if you don't tithe in their church. I would like to know the biblical reference that makes this okay, b/c I scratch my head at the thought. I could even see if they charged a fee for use of their building (I mean you are using heat, lights, energy, etc.). But refusing to marry or bury you b/c you don't tithe!? What would Jesus say? What would Jesus do?
> 
> ...


 
I dont feel guilty about what I give to the church because I give what I can. Like someone once told me, " If I gave the church my light bill money, would they send a few members over to my house with some candles and sing Koombaya with me?"..LOL

Jesus Inc.... I'm going to remember that..LOL. But theres much truth in what you said. Commercialism has really invaded churches and as soon as someone says something about it, the response is " show me where it says in the bible that the church cant have a full restaurant, coffee shop, bakery, bookstore on it's property". It is quite a battle. 

Many of the black men I know who do not attend church refer to the images projected. It's too conflicting. One of my friends said, " How is the church gonna help me with my identity if it doesnt know it's own?". I had no response. 

Lastly, as for the pastors who have "dirt" going on in their lives. I have a problem with that as well. It wouldnt be so bad if they repented their past and found redemption through their close relationship with the gospel. Instead, they continue on until a scandal breaks out and they are exposed and then here comes the press conferences with sad faces, pouting lips and a display of humility not shown since they were 15 years and received the keys to their first car.

_Rev. Rufus Daliyuh: " Lawd forgive me.. I was in a dark place. I had tunnel vision and when I reached out.. there was nothing there but legs- uh I mean salvation_"

.. uh huh...  .

I just dont think we can be passive anymore about such things. They count on us to be docile and instantly forgiving. Our passiveness has already lost us so much ground on important moral issues that it will take YEARS to get back where we were. It's a different world and you cant just see blasphamy and grab the holy book and just pray silently " da blood.. da blood.....". We have to challenge our leaders and say " To lead .. you MUST take your position seriously or we will hold you accountable. The images you project to your flock must be as clear, consistant and just." I can never tell whether Eddie Long is going to preach the Gospel or lead the congregation in a session of 'Holy Tae Bo... the anointed remix '

*sigh*.. sorry..LOL.. Must be Friday.


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## Shimmie (Mar 23, 2007)

BlkManWithSomeSense said:
			
		

> *I remember asking the kids who did they consider great men in the ministry.*
> 
> My son said " TD Jakes is a great man (pause)and his Black Expedition with the tint windows is the Bomb! When you gonna get a suit like his?" My daughter said " I like the black muscle man who talks (Eddie Long) because he's a good speaker." Granted their ages are just 13 and 11 but there is no better truth than through the eyes of babes.


 
"Who do 'men' say that I am?.............."    

It shouldn't be the above.   

Excellent message, BMWSS.  

'Man of God', You truly brought this message 'home' with the children.  Because if this is what they 'see', we're in trouble...'The Church is in serious trouble; for our children are being mislead by the wrong vessels.  

It's one thing for the world (the devil) to mislead them.  Afterall, it's expected and we can surely admonish our 'babies' against the ways of the world and satan's devices.  

But how do we 'protect' our children from the 'good guys' (our spiritual leaders in the forefront) who are doing not so good?  We teach them to honor our Pastors and men/women who minister the word of God.  But how do we interject the 'no-no's' and still keep the line of respect in its perspective?   

What a confusing message to our budding seedlings and branches (our babies) to reject the world, yet respect the minister who supports the world.    

We as parents have a big job on our hands....Big job.   The wrong waters are seeping under the bridge and circling around the feet and ankles of our children.   And who has never known a child who didn't like to play in a puddle of water?  I'm one of them.... 

BMWSS, thank you for opening our eyes.


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## Shimmie (Mar 23, 2007)

> BlkManWithSomeSense said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## PaperClip (Mar 23, 2007)

BlkManWithSomeSense said:
			
		

> We all know that there is considerable ambiguity in the word. Thats a good thing because such open interpretation of it's principals create the flexibility to "update" yet maintain our beliefs as times change and we continue to evolve. However, in the wrong hands, such ambiguities would be a playground for a devils' advocate. It is important that we not only protect our existence and effectiveness as Christians but also against those who would pervert or manipulate the spiritual intent of our ministry.
> 
> Relaxer, you asked "who" makes the determination of what is just and what is not pertaining to the estimation of excess. As you know, there is no one human authority. *I personally feel we ALL share the authority to make such a determination. Anyone who claims Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior is immediately enabled with the right to question the direction of our leadership to insure we are staying the course.* We are a body of people who are governed and led by the holy spirit and every day we walk in faith and not by sight. Our spirit leads us in all decisions and interpretations and so we must act accordingly when faced with moments where we see no obvious wrong but our spirit is nonetheless uneased.
> 
> ...


 
Addressing the points in bold....

As human beings sharing the planet, those of the dominant culture (be it dominant by race, religion, sexuality, education level, and so on) are usually the ones who determine what is acceptable...NORMAL, shall we say? So does this play out in the same form and fashion with regard to the church? Actually, it has...to a great DETRIMENTand DISSERVICE to the institutional/organized church and, more importantly, to the (spiritual) body of Christ.

What scripture would you use to support this point: "...enabled with the right to question the direction of our leadership to insure we are staying the course."? 

The Bible admonishes believers to OBEY them that have rule over you. *Hebrews 13:17 (KJV)*: Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you. (NIV)

Is it BLIND rule? Of course not. The Bible also says to KNOW them that labor among you. 1 Thessalonians 5:11:13: Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.


Now we ask you, brothers, to respect those who work hard among you, who are over you in the Lord and who admonish you. 13Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other. (NIV). 

So if one has questions about the leader and the way the leader is doing things, I think it's ok to have questions. But you don't necessarily tell them WHAT TO DO AND HOW TO DO IT. My pastor says the church that the Lord put him in charge of isn't a democracy. We don't get a "vote". It is what it is. People have a choice to vote with their feet. And that's all good. But why isn't there a vote, because HE (my pastor, just like EVERY pastor) has to GIVE AN ACCOUNT TO GOD for how they led the flock. 

*Second point about the pastors with businesses: *Let me be clear. My pastor is in full-time ministry. He doesn't WORK ANOTHER JOB. He's not punching a clock at Ford Motor Company. He does have entrepreneurial interests. He is a business OWNER with employees. God's work comes FIRST and FOREMOST. And think about it this way: at our church we are taught about GENERATING MULTIPLE STREAMS OF INCOME to not only live well, but also to be a blessing to the Kingdom of God. Salvation is free, but it takes money to spread the gospel across this GLOBE. And more real saved folk need more money to give toward spreading the gospel. And this can be done in many ways.... 

Third point about pastors and terms: well, I've only been at two churches my whole life and in both of those situations, the pastors are in their positions until they decide not to be there or until the Lord raptures us. It's not a conflict for me unless they allow the business to take them away from the Lord's work (just as with ANY OF US). And as far as how many houses the pastor should have or how many cars. Again, speaking about my own pastor: he can drive a PLATINUM PHANTOM and have 10 homes and a jet and an island off of Hawaii and I would not have one problem with it. Why? Because he's a man of integrity. I don't worship my pastor or anything like that. I've explained how I feel about my spiritual parents. I would know that the Lord blessed my pastor with the means (legally, not through stealing or "misdirecting" the tithes and offerings) to get that car. I mean when you think about it, it's kind of oxymoronic: first it's said that the pastor is stealing the tithes and offerings, but then it's said that the congregation is poor...so how could the pastor get all this stuff from the "poor" church folk if they ain't giving 'cause they ain't got no money (goodness, I done switched to ebonics mode!). 

Bottom line: the Bible says that the poor will always be with us. *Matthew 26:11*; *Mark 14:7*; *John 12:8*. The Bible also says that when you give unto the poor, you lend unto the Lord (*Proverbs 19:17*): Here's the actual scripture: 17He that hath pity upon the poor lendeth unto the LORD; and that which he hath given will he pay him again (KJV). Another translation: He who is kind to the poor lends to the LORD, and he will reward him for what he has done.

So maybe some of these people who have some stuff have been LENDING to the LORD by GIVING UNTO THE POOR. Maybe some of these pastors have been doing right by God's people and the Lord is blessing them.

As far as image and the children are concerned, the first place to look to are the PARENTS and what values they are exposing and rehearsing to them about what's most important.

I'm convinced that when I am faithful and obedient and flow in my God-given purpose, TRUST: I believe that the Lord will be just fine with me living, eating, driving, flying, birthing, smelling, and tasting REAL, REAL, REAL GOOD!


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## PaperClip (Mar 23, 2007)

To follow up on the point about "great men in ministry". What is meant by great? Big? Noticeable? Popular?

I will say (admit) this though: some years back (before I knew who Bishop Long was), I went with my mom to hear him at a church he was visiting. So we go and the service starts and he's preaching and he takes off his suit jacket and I cannot lie: I just stopped listening to what he was saying. I think I was shocked on a number of levels: 1) that he took is jacket off and his arms weren't covered and 2) he had those big muscles. I just didn't know how to manage all that in my head. And I wasn't lusting after him or anything like that, I was just like um...... I just had not encounted the situation like that before.


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## Shimmie (Mar 23, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> To follow up on the point about "great men in ministry". What is meant by great? Big? Noticeable? Popular?
> 
> I will say (admit) this though: some years back (before I knew who Bishop Long was), I went with my mom to hear him at a church he was visiting. So we go and the service starts and he's preaching and he takes off his suit jacket and I cannot lie: I just stopped listening to what he was saying. I think I was shocked on a number of levels: 1) that he took is jacket off and his arms weren't covered and 2) he had those big muscles. I just didn't know how to manage all that in my head. And I wasn't lusting after him or anything like that, I was just like um...... I just had not encounted the situation like that before.


 
   Oh Jesus!

Something must me wrong with me.  Because I never really noticed Bishop Long's muscles until it was posted a little while back in one of our threads by a precious member who said he was making tnings harder for her.   

Now I understand why he always says,  "Now....'watch this' , watch this" 

*sigh* shaking my head and laughing like crazy over here.   

How did I miss this man's muscles.... HOW ?   

  After all this time and I've been missing out.


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## cocoberry10 (Mar 23, 2007)

Shimmie

Now I understand why he always says said:
			
		

> 'watch this' , watch this" [/B]
> *sigh* shaking my head and laughing like crazy over here.



When I just read the bolded part, I had this haunting vision of him (I've only seen him on tv) saying "watch this, watch this," while his pec muscles fluttered.  You know how men in muscle shirts flex their pec muscles.  God forgive me.  I'm not attracted to this man or anything like that, but it is very distracting.  I know it shouldn't be, but sometimes when I see him on tv it does seem like he tries to "move his muscles."

I don't care so much about that, b/c usually his messages are good, so I'm not too distracted. I just hope he's not one of those we hear about in the news that had an affair with one of his female parishoners, b/c she couldn't focus on the sermon and instead was "overtaken" by his muscles.

But the above is a good example of how both men and women should be aware of their "attire" in church.  It's nice to know that it's not just women's "dress" that can be distracting in church.  In fact, I guess any of these pastors who come to church with bling bling jewelry and furs could be distracting.  What's next, crunked out grills with the ministers names written in platinum and diamonds (i.e. gold teeth)!


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## Shimmie (Mar 23, 2007)

cocoberry10 said:
			
		

> When I just read the bolded part, I had this haunting vision of him (I've only seen him on tv) saying "watch this, watch this," while his pec muscles fluttered. You know how men in muscle shirts flex their pec muscles. God forgive me. I'm not attracted to this man or anything like that, but it is very distracting. I know it shouldn't be, but sometimes when I see him on tv it does seem like he tries to "move his muscles."
> 
> I don't care so much about that, b/c usually his messages are good, so I'm not too distracted. I just hope he's not one of those we hear about in the news that had an affair with one of his female parishoners, b/c she couldn't focus on the sermon and instead was "overtaken" by his muscles.
> 
> But the above is a good example of how both men and women should be aware of their "attire" in church. It's nice to know that it's not just women's "dress" that can be distracting in church. In fact, I guess any of these pastors who come to church with bling bling jewelry and furs could be distracting. What's next, crunked out grills with the ministers names written in platinum and diamonds (i.e. gold teeth)!


 
Oh Lord!     I can't stop laughing about this.   BMWSS started it...    He's still sitting in the car in 'time-out'.   

You know, I really don't think Bishop Eddie is aware.  He's just 'flaunting'.  Muscles have never impressed me for some reason.  I don't know. (shugs)

But you are so right about our dressing in the Church.  Do you know that I will not even 'dance' in church.   I'm very reserved and stuck up.  Prim and proper ... (yeah... right ).   But you get my drift.  I'm just careful.  

We love Bishop Eddie though.  I really do love his messages.  And I thank God that both he and his brother were totally healed from prostate cancer (it's been 2 years almost).  Praise God whose still God even when we don't behave ourselves... Praise Him.


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## tmichelle (Mar 23, 2007)

cocoberry10 said:
			
		

> Very well said. I guess I don't have a problem with a pastor having his own business outside the church. However, many of these pastors are running "businesses" within the church. Like it's *Jesus, Inc.*
> 
> Now, don't get me wrong. I understand that there is a business side to church, and without organization, a church can't be run efficiently. But it seems like everything these days is for sale, or comes with a price. There are churches that won't marry you or bury you, if you don't tithe in their church. I would like to know the biblical reference that makes this okay, b/c I scratch my head at the thought. I could even see if they charged a fee for use of their building (I mean you are using heat, lights, energy, etc.). But refusing to marry or bury you b/c you don't tithe!? What would Jesus say? What would Jesus do?
> 
> ...


 
 Still chucklinga about the bolded part.

Seriously though, I too have a problem with this "business" mentality in churches.  I see scriptural references to the church as a banquet, family, bride, body etc. but never a business.  In fact starting a business and accumulating wealth didn't seem to be a priority of Jesus.


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## PaperClip (Mar 23, 2007)

tmichelle said:
			
		

> Still chucklinga about the bolded part.
> 
> Seriously though, I too have a problem with this "business" mentality in churches. I see scriptural references to the church as a banquet, family, bride, body etc. but never a business. In fact starting a business and accumulating wealth didn't seem to be a priority of Jesus.


 
Deuteronomy 8:18
But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.

But remember the LORD your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your forefathers, as it is today (NIV)

*Ruth 2:1*
And Naomi had a kinsman of her husband's, a mighty man of *wealth*, of the family of Elimelech; and his name was Boaz.

*2 Chronicles 1:11*
10Give me now wisdom and knowledge, that I may go out and come in before this people: for who can judge this thy people, that is so great? 

11And God said to Solomon, Because this was in thine heart, and thou hast not asked riches, wealth, or honour, nor the life of thine enemies, neither yet hast asked long life; but hast asked wisdom and knowledge for thyself, that thou mayest judge my people, over whom I have made thee king: 12Wisdom and knowledge is granted unto thee; and I will give thee riches, and wealth, and honour, such as none of the kings have had that have been before thee, neither shall there any after thee have the like.

*Psalm 112:3*
*Wealth* and riches shall be in his house: and his righteousness endureth for ever.

*Proverbs 13:11*
*Wealth* gotten by vanity shall be diminished: but he that gathereth by labour shall increase.

*Proverbs 13:22*
A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children: and the *wealth* of the sinner is laid up for the just


Distinctions of a Christian Entrepreneur

http://ezinearticles.com/?Distinctions-of-a-Christian-Entrepreneur&id=424623

What are the distinctions of a Christian business man or woman? Are they internal or external, or both? What does the Bible have to say about the gifts that are part of being an entrepreneur?

Building a business, whether large or small, puts the believer in the position of making a difference for their family as well as many others. Itâ€™s in essence a creative act, reflecting our Creator God, of making something from nothing.

Of course, we donâ€™t really start from nothing. We start with spiritual gifts, aptitudes, preparation, and vision. What is it that God is positioning you to build for His glory? Whatâ€™s the vision? Any business takes long-term planning and commitment, and the flexibility to take bold calculated risks after counting the cost.

The goal of a Christian entrepreneur is not material gain for the sake of self-indulgent living, or it shouldnâ€™t be. With the spiritual understanding that the Lord could return at any time, our wealth is to be directed for His Kingdom work. Consider how little money it costs to provide a Bible for a believer in persecuted lands, or to provide training for a national pastor or missionary, or even travel costs for a missionary to attend a conference, come home for a much-needed furlough, or get medical attention.

As business owners, we need a heart of service, both to the Lord and to others. Amidst the busy days and years of building your company, look up and look around. Who could use a word of encouragement? Who could use some information that youâ€™ve learned along the way? There is nothing we have that we have not been given. Donâ€™t become myopic in your inward-focus, but rather look to serve and bless others, whether financially, professionally, or by spiritual encouragement.

Christian entrepreneurs are given stewardship of ideas, resources, relationships, and decisions. Each opportunity builds on that which preceded it, each person you meet can be a connection to the next expert you need to learn from, each step leads to a clarified or enlarged vision. Were you thinking too small? Itâ€™s a common malady when we rely on our own strength and understanding. Remember Who you serve and seek Him daily for your marching orders!

You too can serve the Lord through the gift of being an entrepreneur. Godâ€™s Kingdom work requires dedicated visionaries and financial backing, and all studies show that the highest net worth individuals are those who have built their own business. Commit your work to the Lord, and He will direct your path.

(c) 2007 Becki Maxson
ABOUT THE AUTHOR:
Becki Maxson is the founder of KingdomWork.com, a free resource for Christian home based business owners, and is a Marketing Mentor for Advantage Conferences. a Christ-centered business mentoring and training company.
Subscribe to the KingdomWork E-News today and receive your free $29.95 ebook, Slay Your Giant, the ebook by Tim Darnell that's transforming lives around the world!
This article can be reprinted freely online, as long as the entire article and this resource box are included.
Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/?expert=Becki_Maxson


----------



## Shimmie (Mar 23, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> Deuteronomy 8:18
> But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.
> 
> But remember the LORD your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your forefathers, as it is today (NIV)
> ...


 
You know what the saddest words are from Christians when another Christian or family member has a 'need.'

"Wish I had it..."    

As Christians we DO need to hold our own.  The same we need as a Black race.  We (as Blacks) DO need to be able to hold our own to enable us to take care of ourselves, and to be a blessing to those in need.  

And this I know we all agree on.   

Instead of '...wish I had it", we can say instead..."Here and don't worry about paying it back."  

The bolded reminded me of something.  'We' are all that we have to take care of each other.  The world won't do it unless there are strings attached; we are restricted to compromise our values.  

When we give to each other, we do so without strings.  For it is our heart within any gift expecting only to lift the other up.   

We do need 'richness' in the Church; we need it in the Black race; we need it to empower us cause 'broke' only makes us a servant to the lender.  We need it to teach others how to use it for the right reasons...not hord it up with more than we really need.   

Good Post Rehab....  

Everyone here has made this a beautiful thread.  Especially beautiful is having a man here (BMWSS) who opened our eyes to vital issues with men that we as women could have never realized ourselves.  

It all ties in for those Christian woman who desire only Black men. But what good is it to have a Black man if we don't know how to understand him? 

We needed to know why our men won't go to church; otherwise how do we win that battle without casualities (the loss of a wonderful marriage).  We learned the root of this battle against our men. 

BMWSS for this cause, you are allowed to come out of 'time-out'.  We now understand about Bishop Eddie's Tai Bo muscles.   

Thank you Man of God...


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## tmichelle (Mar 24, 2007)

Okay, are you just ticked with me or something?  I never said wealth was bad, I just said Christ didn't make it a priority to gain it.  And despite all your scripture references, I still think it should not be a priority of Christians because Christ said:

19Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: 

 20But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:  21For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. 

Also:
33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. 

And don't forget the rich young ruler:

21Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and (U)sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have (V)treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." 
 22But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property. 



			
				RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> Deuteronomy 8:18
> But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.
> 
> But remember the LORD your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your forefathers, as it is today (NIV)
> ...


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## PaperClip (Mar 24, 2007)

tmichelle said:
			
		

> Okay, are you just ticked with me or something? I never said wealth was bad, I just said Christ didn't make it a priority to gain it. And despite all your scripture references, I still think it should not be a priority of Christians because Christ said:
> 
> 19Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
> 
> ...


 
No. I am not ticked at you at all. It matters to me that there is a comprehensive perspective presented. A comprehensive perspective is something we ALL can contribute to.... And I'm raising questions to provoke thought and to help remove the stigma that church folk have to take a vow of poverty to be considered holy.

How does one actually measure or discern the level of priority that one gives to the pursuit of wealth? Again, what is excessive to one might be considered poverty to another. Who gets to decide what's enough? Who gets to decide what's enough for you? Who gets to decide what's enough for me? This is what it sounds like when people say that the pastor has "too much". Too much according to whose standards?

I wholeheartedly concur with the scriptures that you stated concerning earthly treasures. Let's revisit the story of rich young ruler: the lesson in that wasn't that he had to take a vow of poverty to follow Christ. The lesson was that he had to LOVE CHRIST more than he loved his money and that rich ruler made the unfortunate choice to put his faith in his money instead of Christ. There are people who have read about this rich young ruler and said "I am not going to put ANYTHING (including money, marriage, children, etc.) over Christ." And through their faith and obedience, they were/are fulfilled...and part of that fulfillment was/is that they got some money...however much (or little) they want. 

But let's consider this: Jesus wasn't poor by any means. He wasn't struggling on an earthly realm. He ALWAYS had provision. He didn't have to make a priority to gain wealth because HE ALREADY HAD IT! And I'm talking on the natural/earthly realm. He always had food, clothing, shelter, reliable transportation. He even had a grave because to lay down in for a couple of days.


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## BlkManWithSomeSense (Mar 24, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> No. I am not ticked at you at all. It matters to me that there is a comprehensive perspective presented. A comprehensive perspective is something we ALL can contribute to.... And I'm raising questions to provoke thought and to help remove the stigma that church folk have to take a vow of poverty to be considered holy.
> 
> How does one actually measure or discern the level of priority that one gives to the pursuit of wealth? Again, what is excessive to one might be considered poverty to another. Who gets to decide what's enough? Who gets to decide what's enough for you? Who gets to decide what's enough for me? This is what it sounds like when people say that the pastor has "too much". Too much according to whose standards?
> 
> ...


 
I dont feel leadership needs to take a vow of poverty to be considered holy... but how about maintaining the tradition of modesty. How do we turn our back on a legacy of teachings about images and humility? Let's use the greatest example left for us. *Jesus never lived above the means of his disciples* and today's ministers should not live so lavishly above the congregation they lead.  Sometimes the lifestyle which claim God has blessed them with is in reality a by product of what happens when all of the money stays at the top and the wealth that God blesses the church with is not properly distributed.

This issue isnt about scripture as it is more about examples followed and intents understood. We look to our pastors to set the standard and example and if they are pushing a gospel of prosperity and financial gain then what do you think it's people will do? The impact when leadership  changes it's course of teaching creates a ripple effect. A pastor is the LAST person one would expect to embrace such a wordly doctrine. Perhaps that is why so many of us are silent on this issue because of the disbelief that a Man of God would truly intoxicate himself with this stance. 

I dont think all pastors of mega churchs are corrupt. I just think mega churches as an idea is a bad one that leaves a worst effect on the congregation. It unduly creates a detachment that is not recognized for many years later. Yes people are receiving great teachings and annointed blessings but the bond of commuinity takes a HUGE hit. 25,000+ members are not a closely knit group. I wasnt going to quote scripture but I changed my mind at the last minute.

_"No-one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and mammon . The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. He said to them, 'You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight"_
_Luke 16:13-15_

Our CHILDREN are watching how we handle this. WE are setting the example for them. If we take a passive attitude towards this, what message will they be left with?  The Word of God must be clear and without conflict. The message and how it's carried out

Oh by the way , did I mention how much I appreciate all the responses on this thread? 68 responses and over a 1,000 'hits' says that this must be something people are at least thinking about. Kudos to everyone.


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## PaperClip (Mar 24, 2007)

BlkManWithSomeSense said:
			
		

> I dont feel leadership needs to take a vow of poverty to be considered holy... but how about maintaining the tradition of modesty. How do we turn our back on a legacy of teachings about images and humility? Let's use the greatest example left for us. *Jesus never lived above the means of his disciples* and today's ministers should not live so lavishly above the congregation they lead. Sometimes the lifestyle which claim God has blessed them with is in reality a by product of what happens when all of the money stays at the top and the wealth that God blesses the church with is not properly distributed.
> 
> This issue isnt about scripture as it is more about examples followed and intents understood. We look to our pastors to set the standard and example and if they are pushing a gospel of prosperity and financial gain then what do you think it's people will do? The impact when leadership changes it's course of teaching creates a ripple effect. A pastor is the LAST person one would expect to embrace such a wordly doctrine. Perhaps that is why so many of us are silent on this issue because of the disbelief that a Man of God would truly intoxicate himself with this stance.
> 
> ...


 
I concur with the thought-provoking conversation. 

Tradition of modesty: again, how is this modesty determined? What's the criteria? What's the barometer?

How can we determine how Jesus lived in comparison to his disciples without knowing how the disciples lived, before AND after they decided to follow Jesus? Matthew was a tax collector, yes? He wasn't poor before he met Jesus and which would give weight to the notion that he wasn't poor AFTER he became a disciple of Jesus. Peter was a fisherman, yes? He wasn't poor before he met Jesus and again, he couldn't have been (that) poor after he met Jesus, either. Just like Jesus, the disciples has everything they needed to do what they needed to do. 

Where's the personal accountability in all of this that it's the pastor's fault OR credit for the congregation's poverty or wealth (outside of the spiritual components)? The pastor can do his job: teach the word, live the life, be an example of being a good steward, even live "modestly", but the people still don't change. Again, I ask: when is enough enough?

You mentioned about all the money "staying at the top", as if the church is a corporation with dividends and profit-sharing. It's the PEOPLE who collectively come with their varying means to give. This may mean that everybody isn't giving the same amount, but they are giving what they can according to what they have. I submit to you that everyone isn't doing their EQUITABLE (not equal) share. For example, the tithe is 10 PERCENT, not everybody giving $10. Because $10 to one person is a drop in the bucket; $10 to another person could be the difference between life or death, if you will. 

What's interesting is that today's megachurch could be considered the  Jewish equivalent of the synagogue (both biblical and today). I mean, didn't Solomon lay out a synagogue? Even when they were building the temple, the PEOPLE brought the materials to take care of the house of God and the leader of that house.

I concur that clearly, some of this has been taken to the extreme. Yes, our children are watching and they are also watching rappers get all the bling bling for a job that doesn't mean much in comparison to the pastors and ministers who are operating in integrity and winning souls for the Lord and there's not some material as well as spiritual rewards for that? I think not. The example for our children should be that life in Christ has both spiritual AND natural rewards and that we don't have to wait to get to heaven to walk on streets of gold. I mean, if we're putting our "dirty" glorified feet on a substance that's of so much value on planet Earth, come on now, ain't nothing wrong with having some of it, especially when we put Him first!


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## tmichelle (Mar 24, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> No. I am not ticked at you at all. It matters to me that there is a comprehensive perspective presented. A comprehensive perspective is something we ALL can contribute to.... And I'm raising questions to provoke thought and to help remove the stigma that church folk have to take a vow of poverty to be considered holy.
> 
> *How does one actually measure or discern the level of priority that one gives to the pursuit of wealth? Again, what is excessive to one might be considered poverty to another. Who gets to decide what's enough? Who gets to decide what's enough for you? Who gets to decide what's enough for me? This is what it sounds like when people say that the pastor has "too much".* *Too much according to whose standards?*
> 
> ...


 
I don't think it matters at all about one's wealth, it is the desire to gain it (at the cost of others whether you consider yourself a pastor or not) that becomes the problem.  Here is how one determines who has too much in answer to your question I bolded.  God is, check out this text at the end of Heb. 11, the chapter on faith.  People seem to overlook this quite frequently.  After the writer discusses the wonderful things people saw and enjoyed because of their faith, he also wrote this:


 31By faith (BN)Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace. 
 32And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of (BO)Gideon, (BP)Barak, (BQ)Samson, (BR)Jephthah, of (BS)David and (BT)Samuel and the prophets, 
 33who by faith (BU)conquered kingdoms, (BV)performed acts of righteousness, (BW)obtained promises, (BX)shut the mouths of lions, 
 34(BY)quenched the power of fire, (BZ)escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, (CA)became mighty in war, (CB)put foreign armies to flight. 
 35(CC)Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection; 
 36*and others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also (CD)chains and imprisonment. *
* 37They were (CE)stoned, they were (CF)sawn in two, [a]they were tempted, they were (CG)put to death with the sword; they went about (CH)in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, (CI)ill-treated *
* 38(men of whom the world was not worthy), (CJ)wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground. *
* 39And all these, having (CK)gained approval through their faith, (CL)did not receive what was promised, ** 40because God had provided (CM)something better for us, so that (CN)apart from us they would not be made perfect. *

So it is not okay to gain $$$ if God has chosen you to represent him in one of these ways.  If all the pastors like to do is show the example of how you need to give him money, and get some for yourself, people will miss that they are to put God first and that God may not intend them to have money here on this earth.


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## tmichelle (Mar 24, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> I concur with the thought-provoking conversation.
> 
> Tradition of modesty: again, how is this modesty determined? What's the criteria? What's the barometer?
> 
> ...


 
The highlighted portion is not accurate.  Today's mega church should not be considered the equivalent of Solomon's temple (Solomon built a temple, the synagogues came later most likely during the ~400 years between the Old Testment and New).  Both the tabernacle and the temple that Solomon built were a dwelling place of God.  Today, the buildings are not holy at all, it is our hearts.  God dwells within us through his Holy Spirit.  The early church met in public places, peoples homes, at the beach, etc. where we meet is not of consequence.  Giving to God to have crystal chandeliers in the building is not the same as having a pure and undivided heart.  That is the pearl of great worth.


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## PaperClip (Mar 24, 2007)

tmichelle said:
			
		

> I don't think it matters at all about one's wealth, it is the desire to gain it (at the cost of others whether you consider yourself a pastor or not) that becomes the problem. Here is how one determines who has too much in answer to your question I bolded. God is, check out this text at the end of Heb. 11, the chapter on faith. People seem to overlook this quite frequently. After the writer discusses the wonderful things people saw and enjoyed because of their faith, he also wrote this:
> 
> 
> 31By faith (BN)Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace.
> ...


 
Please forgive me because it is not clear to me how you are connecting such sufferings to poverty or little money. I certainly would not look at these situations as a way that the Lord wanted to represent Him. The aforementioned were situations in these folks' lives, where they had a choice to have faith and obey. Blips, if you will, as PART of their journey, but not the entire journey.

It is not clear as to how this addresses their financial situation. But think about it: Rahab had to have had some money in order to have accommodations big enough and guarded enough to hide the spies.  She couldn't have hid the spies in a tent.

And with regard to the comparison of megachurches and synagogues: if you consider it in either way: spiritually or naturally, the underlying point is that ALL the people share in the collective responsibility of tending to the house of the Lord. That's why it matters who a person submits to with regard to church membership. If there are no lights, heat, gas, pews for the church, then it's probably not wise for the pastor to direct the funds to buy a crystal chandelier. And if one is sitting in a church where that is going on (and the person DOESN'T like that), then they should seek the Lord about going to another church. But how about this: the Lord may tell that person to STAY and PRAY for that pastor. Now that takes faith.


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## tmichelle (Mar 24, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> Please forgive me because it is not clear to me how you are connecting such sufferings to poverty or little money. I certainly would not look at these situations as a way that the Lord wanted to represent Him. The aforementioned were situations in these folks' lives, where they had a choice to have faith and obey. Blips, if you will, as PART of their journey, but not the entire journey.
> 
> It is not clear as to how this addresses their financial situation. But think about it: Rahab had to have had some money in order to have accommodations big enough and guarded enough to hide the spies. She couldn't have hid the spies in a tent.
> 
> And with regard to the comparison of megachurches and synagogues: if you consider it in either way: spiritually or naturally, the underlying point is that ALL the people share in the collective responsibility of tending to the house of the Lord. That's why it matters who a person submits to with regard to church membership. If there are no lights, heat, gas, pews for the church, then it's probably not wise for the pastor to direct the funds to buy a crystal chandelier. And if one is sitting in a church where that is going on (and the person DOESN'T like that), then they should seek the Lord about going to another church. But how about this: the Lord may tell that person to STAY and PRAY for that pastor. Now that takes faith.


 
37They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins,* being destitute,* afflicted, ill-treated 

Destitute means poor.  

The Bible doesn't disclose Rahab's financial state, in fact that is not the point of her story, if it were then God would have told us.  No need to try and turn Rahab into a rich woman to make a point because there are MANY other people of God who were rich, take King Solomon.  My point has been all along that being rich, well-off, well to do or anything shouldn't be your *priority*, goal, aim or anything.  If it is God's desire for you to be so then that is fine, but our desire should be only what God's will is for us.

Take King Solomon's story II Chron. 1:
8Solomon said to God, "You have dealt with my father David with great lovingkindness, and have made me king in his place. 

 9"Now, O LORD God, Your promise to my father David is fulfilled, for You have made me king over a people as numerous as the dust of the earth. 
 10"Give me now wisdom and knowledge, that I may go out and come in before this people, for who can rule this great people of Yours?" 
 11God said to Solomon, "Because you had this in mind, and did not ask for riches, wealth or honor, or the life of those who hate you, nor have you even asked for long life, but you have asked for yourself wisdom and knowledge that you may rule My people over whom I have made you king,  12wisdom and knowledge have been granted to you. And I will give you riches and wealth and honor, such as none of the kings who were before you has possessed nor those who will come after you." 

When pastors and leaders ASK for more money than they need from the flock as opposed to asking only for wisdom and knowledge to lead "this great people of yours", they are not pleasing to the Lord.

Also, the building a church meets in is not a "house of the Lord", our hearts are.  Remeber Ephesians 3:17 says, "That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love".  Many get this confused all the time and put the emphasis on things, (ie, keeping a nice facility) and not on keeping themselves pure and uncorrupted by the world. 

You wrote, "*I certainly would not look at these situations as a way that the Lord wanted to represent Him.* The aforementioned were situations in these folks' lives, where they had a choice to have faith and obey. Blips, if you will, as PART of their journey, but not the entire journey."

I found the bolded part interesting but I'd like to mention the unbolded part of this statement first.  

38(men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground. 
39And all these, having gained approval through their faith, *did not receive what was promised,* 40because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.  

You are absolutely correct in a counter intuitive way.  These people of faith did not receive what was promised (all the good things God promised).  But God did not lie, their journey was not over, it continued on through death into life with Him.  THAT is His promise, not earthly riches etc., but the promised land in heaven which Christ is preparing for those who love him.  So yes, you could say that it was a "blip" in or "part" of their journey but not their entire journey.  Many people preach otherwise these days, they preach that we can enjoy the promised land here on earth.  That is NOT Biblical.

Now to the first part of your statement, you wrote, "*I certainly would not look at these situations as a way that the Lord wanted to represent Him".  *I found that very interesting.  If these people were of faith (giving their lives to God to the extent that He wrote about them in His book), then how are they not representing God? God who must allow all things to happen for them to happen, (ex. Satan tempting Job) allowed these people to go through the horrible situations they went through.  They in turn gave their lives to God out of faith (much like Christ gave his life to God for the sake of our lives).  By their faith they represented who God is to the world, despite the fact that the world wasn't worthy of them.  They did what God intended them to do in the situations God allowed them to be in, therefore they represented God to the world.


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## PaperClip (Mar 24, 2007)

tmichelle said:
			
		

> 37They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins,* being destitute,* afflicted, ill-treated
> 
> Destitute means poor.
> 
> ...


 
So that we're on the same page, I thought that it would be helpful to be clear about the definition of "poor": lacking material possessions *b* *:* of, relating to, or characterized by poverty; *2 a* *:* less than adequate *: [SIZE=-1]MEAGER[/SIZE]* *b* *:* small in worth (Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary).

Ok... destitute was one form of persecution, but everyone didn't suffer that way. And if such destitution might have been one way that the Lord assigned to someone as a way to "represent" him, then who are we to try to "correct" it? Who are we to try to override the Lord's assignment by "giving" to those folk with that assignment, as you say? Wow... that sounds a lot like Job's family and friends who came and tried to convince him to curse God and die as a means to escape that "assignment". 

I did not say Rahab was rich, but clearly she was not one of the destitute ones. I mean, in her job as a harlot, she made some money. It is what it is, yes? And now that I continue to think about that story, again, Rahab was living her life, not necessarily thinking about the Lord until this opportunity to act on faith and obey came upon her. She put her faith in the Lord, risked her life for it, and we're talking about her today. 

Riches might not be promised (still looking up scriptures on this) but one thing that is consistent in the Word of God is that when a person obeys and submits to the Lord, wealth, favor, blessing comes with that. 

Psalm 112: 1-3

Praise ye the LORD. Blessed is the man that feareth the LORD, that delighteth greatly in his commandments. His seed shall be mighty upon earth: the generation of the upright shall be blessed. Wealth and riches shall be in his house: and his righteousness endureth for ever. 
You said: When pastors and leaders ASK for more money than they need from the flock as opposed to asking only for wisdom and knowledge to lead "this great people of yours", they are not pleasing to the Lord.

The pastor should be asking the Lord for wisdom for him (or her)self to do the job meaning that request is between the Lord and that pastor. Of course the pastor needs that wisdom to do the job. More importantly, that pastor needs integrity. When you say the pastors and leaders are asking for more money than they need, how do you know how much money is needed to run the ministry? Do you have access to the church's financial books? Any church worth its salt has regular business meetings or some other mechanism where this information is made available. Two things I will say to this: 1) when I give, I give unto the Lord in faith. So wherever the church does with the money is, how can I say, I have to release and trust that the funds are being handled with integrity and then I still can take any of those concerns I might have to the Lord; and 2) whenever my flesh wants to question the church's finances, all I have to do is look around my church (w/a HUGE chandelier in the vestibule), heat, water, clean carpets, outreach programs, a school, churches opening in other cities and countries, broadcasting ministry, etc., then my questions are answered.

I see your recurring theme about the church being in our hearts. Yes, this is true. And the Bible also admonishes believers to "not forsake the assembling of yourselves together". While some folk will say that such assembly can happen anywhere, in our 21st century society, many of us assemble at our local assembly. So yes, the building has significance. Pretty much all the organized religions have sacred buildings: church, synagogue, mosque, temple, etc. And the very stability of these physical edifaces play a major role in the assembly of believers and the equipping of believers to go out and evangelize the world.


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## tmichelle (Mar 24, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> So that we're on the same page, I thought that it would be helpful to be clear about the definition of "poor": lacking material possessions *b* *:* of, relating to, or characterized by poverty; *2 a* *:* less than adequate *: [SIZE=-1]MEAGER[/SIZE]* *b* *:* small in worth (Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary).
> 
> Ok... destitute was one form of persecution, but everyone didn't suffer that way. And if such destitution might have been one way that the Lord assigned to someone as a way to "represent" him, then who are we to try to "correct" it? Who are we to try to override the Lord's assignment by "giving" to those folk with that assignment, as you say? Wow... that sounds a lot like Job's family and friends who came and tried to convince him to curse God and die as a means to escape that "assignment".
> 
> ...


 


Ok... *destitute was one form of persecution, but everyone didn't suffer that way*. Very true 
And if such destitution might have been one way that the Lord assigned to someone as a way to "represent" him, then who are we to try to "correct" it? Who are we to try to override the Lord's assignment by "giving" to those folk with that assignment, *as you say*? I didn't say that. Wow... that sounds a lot like Job's family and friends who came and tried to convince him to curse God and die as a means to escape that "assignment". Job's wife told him to curse God and die, his friends continued to accuse him of wrong doing. They were the ones who argued that God "rewards" the righteous and since he was suffering, he obviously did something wrong. As I've been writing all along, this was not the case nor is it now. Riches don't mean that you have favor with the Lord, (nor does it mean you displease the Lord).

I did not say Rahab was rich, but clearly she was not one of the destitute ones. I mean, in her job as a harlot, she made some money. It is what it is, yes? And now that I continue to think about that story, again, Rahab was living her life, not necessarily thinking about the Lord until this opportunity to act on faith and obey came upon her. She put her faith in the Lord, risked her life for it, and we're talking about her today. Yes Rahab was a woman of faith, that is what the Hebrew writer, that I quoted was saying. So why does it matter if she was rich or not? What is your point?

Riches might not be promised (still looking up scriptures on this) but one thing that is consistent in the Word of God is that when a person obeys and submits to the Lord, wealth, favor, blessing comes with that. Blessings and favor, but not *necessarily* wealth. I already showed you scripture where people of faith died destitute. 

Psalm 112: 1-3

Praise ye the LORD. Blessed is the man that feareth the LORD, that delighteth greatly in his commandments. His seed shall be mighty upon earth: the generation of the upright shall be blessed. Wealth and riches shall be in his house: and his righteousness endureth for ever. Great verse, but this is not a promise to Christians, remeber Christ said, "

11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: *for great is your reward in heaven*: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you." Not for great is your reward on earth. The Jews were living in their promised land. In fact God promised if they would obey Him, they would have many rewards including, peace, wealth, no miscarring when they entered the promised land. The promises for Christians are when we enter our promised land as well, but ours is only a heavenly kingdom, that's why Christ says not to store up treasures for ourselves here where rust and moth destroy but to store up treasures in heaven as well as the other versus I previously quoted you.

You said: When pastors and leaders ASK for more money than they need from the flock as opposed to asking only for wisdom and knowledge to lead "this great people of yours", they are not pleasing to the Lord.

The pastor should be asking the Lord for wisdom for him (or her)self to do the job meaning that request is between the Lord and that pastor. Of course the pastor needs that wisdom to do the job. More importantly, that pastor needs integrity. When you say the pastors and leaders are asking for more money than they need, how do you know how much money is needed to run the ministry? (Christ didn't need a late model Jaguar to spread the gospel, while his flock took the bus in fact he humbled himself to death on the cross). Do you have access to the church's financial books? Any church worth its salt has regular business meetings or some other mechanism where this information is made available. Two things I will say to this: 1) when I give, I give unto the Lord in faith. Good So wherever the church does with the money is, how can I say, I have to release and trust that the funds are being handled with integrity and then I still can take any of those concerns I might have to the Lord; that's fine, I'm not calling you to account but the pastors who mishandle the Lord's people. and 2) whenever my flesh wants to question the church's finances, all I have to do is look around my church (w/a HUGE chandelier in the vestibule), heat, water, clean carpets, outreach programs, a school, churches opening in other cities and countries, broadcasting ministry, etc., then my questions are answered.

I see your recurring theme about the church being in our hearts. Yes, this is true. And the Bible also admonishes believers to "not forsake the assembling of yourselves together". While some folk will say that such assembly can happen anywhere, in our 21st century society, many of us assemble at our local assembly. So yes, the building has significance. This is not a biblical conclusion. The only things that have significance are what God says are significant, not 21 century American culture. Pretty much all the organized religions have sacred buildings (again, these buildings aren't scared, the people are): church, synagogue, mosque, temple, etc. And the very stability of these physical edifaces play a major role in the assembly of believers and the equipping of believers to go out and evangelize the world. I have no problem with buildings, but they cannot become more than what God says they are or else they become an idol. God came down and dwelt in the tabernacle and then the temple, now he dwells in our hearts.


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## PaperClip (Mar 24, 2007)

tmichelle said:
			
		

> Ok... *destitute was one form of persecution, but everyone didn't suffer that way*. Very true
> 
> 
> And if such destitution might have been one way that the Lord assigned to someone as a way to "represent" him, then who are we to try to "correct" it? Who are we to try to override the Lord's assignment by "giving" to those folk with that assignment, *as you say*? I didn't say that.
> ...


 
Answers noted above in BLUE.


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## tmichelle (Mar 24, 2007)

And if such destitution might have been one way that the Lord assigned to someone as a way to "represent" him, then who are we to try to "correct" it? Who are we to try to override the Lord's assignment by "giving" to those folk with that assignment, *as you say*? I didn't say that. 

I got this implication from this line "if God has chosen you to represent him in one of these ways" as you said in Post #70.  Yes, God does choose His repsentations (even though we try to usurp him).  God is clear on giving to the poor.  Because God allows you to be poor and still be his representative, doesn't mean that others no longer have an obligation to help the poor.  In fact often times this will be a test to others to see if they are willing to give (after all some have entertained angels without knowing it).

Wow... that sounds a lot like Job's family and friends who came and tried to convince him to curse God and die as a means to escape that "assignment". Job's wife told him to curse God and die, his friends continued to accuse him of wrong doing. They were the ones who argued that God "rewards" the righteous and since he was suffering, he obviously did something wrong. As I've been writing all along, this was not the case nor is it now. Riches don't mean that you have favor with the Lord, (nor does it mean you displease the Lord).
Riches can come with the favor of the Lord, if the person chooses to accept them as part of the reward for the Lord's favor and blessing. Yes, riches can come, but as I've stated before Christ makes it clear that it SHOULD NOT be out priority.  Seeking God and His kingdom should be our priority.

I did not say Rahab was rich, but clearly she was not one of the destitute ones. I mean, in her job as a harlot, she made some money. It is what it is, yes? And now that I continue to think about that story, again, Rahab was living her life, not necessarily thinking about the Lord until this opportunity to act on faith and obey came upon her. She put her faith in the Lord, risked her life for it, and we're talking about her today. Yes Rahab was a woman of faith, that is what the Hebrew writer, that I quoted was saying. So why does it matter if she was rich or not? What is your point?
My point with regard to mentioning Rahab was in response to your point about Rahab being chosen to represent God through persecution (which I noted wasn't clear to me and how that connected with finances) That makes sense.  I was trying to put the people who were suffering in the correct context by quoting what the passage was about.  The bolded portion of the scripture in Hebrews 11 starts the discourse on the persecuted people of faith. but to just point out that she had to have some means...to counteract the idea the believers have to be represented as financially destitute in order to be effective in their God-given purpose. Rahab is one of several example of the opposite of this.

Riches might not be promised (still looking up scriptures on this) but one thing that is consistent in the Word of God is that when a person obeys and submits to the Lord, wealth, favor, blessing comes with that. Blessings and favor, but not *necessarily* wealth. I already showed you scripture where people of faith died destitute. (Please refer to Psalm 112)Psalms 112 does not negate the people of faith and prophets who died in proverty or hid in caves, etc.  Psalms 112 does not say that they weren't people of faith.

Psalm 112: 1-3

Praise ye the LORD. Blessed is the man that feareth the LORD, that delighteth greatly in his commandments. His seed shall be mighty upon earth: the generation of the upright shall be blessed. Wealth and riches shall be in his house: and his righteousness endureth for ever. Great verse, but this is not a promise to Christians, remeber Christ said, "

11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: *for great is your reward in heaven*: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you." Not for great is your reward on earth. The Jews were living in their promised land. In fact God promised if they would obey Him, they would have many rewards including, peace, wealth, no miscarring when they entered the promised land. The promises for Christians are when we enter our promised land as well, but ours is only a heavenly kingdom, that's why Christ says not to store up treasures for ourselves here where rust and moth destroy but to store up treasures in heaven as well as the other versus I previously quoted you.

Let me be clear on this point: I believe that we can have a hundred fold now as well as a hundred fold later (in heaven). I can serve the Lord real good driving my Ford Focus right now and I can serve the Lord real good driving a late model Jaguar (or my my choice of a 2007 Lexus 350). The Lord really doesn't care what I drive, but if what I drive (or eat, or where I live) gets in the way of my ministry, then that's a big problem. You CAN have money now and riches in heaven, but it is not a promise of God, nor should it be a priority of ours.  Our only priority should be to love the Lord with all our hearts, soul, mind and strength.COLOR]



Do you have access to the church's financial books? Any church worth its salt has regular business meetings or some other mechanism where this information is made available. Two things I will say to this: 1) when I give, I give unto the Lord in faith. Good So wherever the church does with the money is, how can I say, I have to release and trust that the funds are being handled with integrity and then I still can take any of those concerns I might have to the Lord; that's fine, I'm not calling you to account but the pastors who mishandle the Lord's people. and 2) whenever my flesh wants to question the church's finances, all I have to do is look around my church (w/a HUGE chandelier in the vestibule), heat, water, clean carpets, outreach programs, a school, churches opening in other cities and countries, broadcasting ministry, etc., then my questions are answered.

I see your recurring theme about the church being in our hearts. Yes, this is true. And the Bible also admonishes believers to "not forsake the assembling of yourselves together". While some folk will say that such assembly can happen anywhere, in our 21st century society, many of us assemble at our local assembly. So yes, the building has significance. This is not a biblical conclusion. The only things that have significance are what God says are significant, not 21 century American culture. Pretty much all the organized religions have sacred buildings (again, these buildings aren't scared, the people are): church, synagogue, mosque, temple, etc. And the very stability of these physical edifaces play a major role in the assembly of believers and the equipping of believers to go out and evangelize the world. I have no problem with buildings, but they cannot become more than what God says they are or else they become an idol. God came down and dwelt in the tabernacle and then the temple, now he dwells in our hearts. I think my response to this is already noted in BLACK this multi-colored paragraph. Yes, it is becoming a rainbow of colors, but your response is not clear to me.


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## PaperClip (Mar 24, 2007)

tmichelle said:
			
		

> And if such destitution might have been one way that the Lord assigned to someone as a way to "represent" him, then who are we to try to "correct" it? Who are we to try to override the Lord's assignment by "giving" to those folk with that assignment, *as you say*? I didn't say that.
> 
> I got this implication from this line "if God has chosen you to represent him in one of these ways" as you said in Post #70. Yes, God does choose His repsentations (even though we try to usurp him). God is clear on giving to the poor. Because God allows you to be poor and still be his representative, doesn't mean that others no longer have an obligation to help the poor. In fact often times this will be a test to others to see if they are willing to give (after all some have entertained angels without knowing it).
> 
> ...


 
Responses in blue.


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## tmichelle (Mar 25, 2007)

_Wow... that sounds a lot like Job's family and friends who came and tried to convince him to curse God and die as a means to escape that "assignment". Job's wife told him to curse God and die, his friends continued to accuse him of wrong doing. They were the ones who argued that God "rewards" the righteous and since he was suffering, he obviously did something wrong. As I've been writing all along, this was not the case nor is it now. Riches don't mean that you have favor with the Lord, (nor does it mean you displease the Lord)._
_Riches can come with the favor of the Lord, if the person chooses to accept them as part of the reward for the Lord's favor and blessing. Yes, riches can come, but as I've stated before Christ makes it clear that it SHOULD NOT be out priority. Seeking God and His kingdom should be our priority._
_I have not said that pursuing riches should be priority. What I did inquire about is WHO DECIDES WHAT'S TOO MUCH for someone else? My pursuit of ANYTHING will not look like your pursuit and no one really has the place outside of the Lord to tell another person that the intensity of their pursuit is too strong or too weak. Notice I said the INTENSITY of the pursuit, not the CONTENT of that pursuit._

_This whole conversation started because the of the response to the question of why black men are leaving the church. We are not to even have the *appearance* of evil. These pastors are appearing evil through their desire to gain money. Asking for more from the flock than is needed is definitely an *appearance *of evil, if not to you than at least to the black men who are leaving (not to mention many others including myself). And yes, it is our place as the church to correct each other. We are told very strongly we are not to tolerate bad behavior. _


_Praise ye the LORD. Blessed is the man that feareth the LORD, that delighteth greatly in his commandments. His seed shall be mighty upon earth: the generation of the upright shall be blessed. Wealth and riches shall be in his house: and his righteousness endureth for ever. Great verse, but this is not a promise to Christians, remeber Christ said, "_

_11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: *for great is your reward in heaven*: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you." Not for great is your reward on earth. The Jews were living in their promised land. In fact God promised if they would obey Him, they would have many rewards including, peace, wealth, no miscarring when they entered the promised land. The promises for Christians are when we enter our promised land as well, but ours is only a heavenly kingdom, that's why Christ says not to store up treasures for ourselves here where rust and moth destroy but to store up treasures in heaven as well as the other versus I previously quoted you._

_Let me be clear on this point: I believe that we can have a hundred fold now as well as a hundred fold later (in heaven). I can serve the Lord real good driving my Ford Focus right now and I can serve the Lord real good driving a late model Jaguar (or my my choice of a 2007 Lexus 350). The Lord really doesn't care what I drive, but if what I drive (or eat, or where I live) gets in the way of my ministry, then that's a big problem. This is an interesting belief, but you have not tied any scripture to it. I suggest that if you persist in believing things not in scripture that you pray on it.  Well, let's not be too quick to say that this belief isn't scriptural._

_Exodus 20:3: Thou shalt have no other gods before me._
_Proverbs 10:22: The blessing of the LORD, it maketh rich, and he addeth no sorrow with it._
_Mark 10:30: But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. (KJV)_

_Mark 10:29-31 (NIV) "I tell you the truth," Jesus replied, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30will fail to *receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fieldsâ€”and with them, persecutions)* and in the age to come, eternal life. 31But many who are first will be last, and the last first."_

_I will take the verse in Mark since the others are again, not a promise to us but to those who had their promised land here on earth. So to Mark 10:20-30... How many people do you know with 100 physical mothers, or 100 physical brothers, or 100 physcial children. These are gifts given to us by the blood of Christ. The hundred mothers, brothers and children are all through our relationship with Christ. The Christians I worship with are my mothers, brothers, sisters and children. Likewise, their homes are my homes, their fields are my fields. Case in point. We have a sister living in our home right now. The world would call her poor, destitute and homeless, but she has a hundred homes because wherever she goes through the blood of Christ she has a home. (Also noteworthy, Christ says we'll have persecutions.)_

_Check out what the Christians did in Acts:_
_32And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them. _
_33And with great power the apostles were giving testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all. _
_34For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales 35and lay them at the apostles' feet, and they would be distributed to each as any had need. _


_Do you have access to the church's financial books? Any church worth its salt has regular business meetings or some other mechanism where this information is made available. Two things I will say to this: 1) when I give, I give unto the Lord in faith. Good So wherever the church does with the money is, how can I say, I have to release and trust that the funds are being handled with integrity and then I still can take any of those concerns I might have to the Lord; that's fine, I'm not calling you to account but the pastors who mishandle the Lord's people. and 2) whenever my flesh wants to question the church's finances, all I have to do is look around my church (w/a HUGE chandelier in the vestibule), heat, water, clean carpets, outreach programs, a school, churches opening in other cities and countries, broadcasting ministry, etc., then my questions are answered._

_I see your recurring theme about the church being in our hearts. Yes, this is true. And the Bible also admonishes believers to "not forsake the assembling of yourselves together". While some folk will say that such assembly can happen anywhere, in our 21st century society, many of us assemble at our local assembly. So yes, the building has significance. This is not a biblical conclusion. The only things that have significance are what God says are significant, not 21 century American culture. Do you agree? Pretty much all the organized religions have sacred buildings (again, these buildings aren't scared, the people are) Do you agree?: church, synagogue, mosque, temple, etc. And the very stability of these physical edifaces play a major role in the assembly of believers and the equipping of believers to go out and evangelize the world. I have no problem with buildings, but they cannot become more than what God says they are or else they become an idol. God came down and dwelt in the tabernacle and then the temple, now he dwells in our hearts. Do you agree? I think my response to this is already noted in BLACK this multi-colored paragraph. Yes, it is becoming a rainbow of colors, but your response is not clear to me. Please advise what is not clear and I will do my best to bring forth clarity._


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## PaperClip (Mar 25, 2007)

tmichelle said:
			
		

> _This whole conversation started because the of the response to the question of why black men are leaving the church. We are not to even have the *appearance* of evil. These pastors are appearing evil through their desire to gain money. Asking for more from the flock than is needed is definitely an *appearance *of evil, if not to you than at least to the black men who are leaving (not to mention many others including myself). And yes, it is our place as the church to correct each other. We are told very strongly we are not to tolerate bad behavior. _
> 
> *Of course I submit to the Word of God that we are not to have the appearance of evil. The issue is that the church has taken this to such an extreme of APPEARING to be so heavenly bound that the church has become of no earthly good...of none effect. Of course we are to be intolerant of sin and we are to deal with and restore accordingly. In fact, Galatians 6:1 says this: "Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted." Notice that it says "ye which are spiritual" meaning those who are controlled by the spirit, should restore the fellow believer. While we are all believers, it matters who does the correcting in the case of a pastor. The sheep don't correct the shepherd. One in PROPER AUTHORITY is to do that. The sheep are to PRAY for their pastor that he is not overtaken in a fault, but if that fault should occur, then that one who COVERS that pastor is to correct.*
> 
> ...


 
Answers in *BLUE. *Edited to meet word count guidelines.


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## cocoberry10 (Mar 25, 2007)

RelaxerRehab and Tmichelle:

This website may help you all get answers.  Hope it helps! 

http://www.christianbibleinfo.com/BibleAndChurches.html

Is your Church doing things that are not found,
 or are forbidden, in the Bible?

Do not be troubled or dismayed; this is that which God has planned and foretold. When you see these things happen, it is time to leave and NOT seek another, "better Church".  If possible, find some believers and fellowship with them, and focus on the task that was originally given to the Churches: declaring the Gospel.


In the Bible, God tells us that there will come a time when the authorities in the churches will no longer look to His rule. This is the time when God allows Satan to sit in the place of rulership and rule, as if he were God:



2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 

The believers, those that God has saved, are forced out of the Churches by this change of rulership. What are we to do? We are to continue declaring the Gospel of Jesus Christ outside the Churches (see verse 13 below):


Luke 21:5 Â¶ And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my nameâ€™s sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my nameâ€™s sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
20 Â¶ And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Menâ€™s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


For more information concerning the Bible and the Churches, 
the following items may be useful:


Some common questions that you may have: End of the Church Age, 4 Questions , Bible Internet Radio, w/ Live Q&A , Has God Saved You? 

People to call, that are not part of a physical Church, and want to help others
find Christian fellowship: FellowServant List


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## BlkManWithSomeSense (Mar 25, 2007)

I am immensely humbled by the wealth of knowledge here. Blessings to Everyone... 

I'm working on my reply ..


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## Shimmie (Mar 26, 2007)

tmichelle and Rehab...

The two of you have acutally been on the same page with this topic from the very beginning.   

How can I say this?  Easy....very easy.   I've lived both.

Relaxer, you and I bloomed in the Word of Faith/Prosperity era.  We learned the principles of God's word and how to work it (or better yet) allowed it to flow in our lives.  We know by living example the priniples of 'seed time' and harvest.    Like you, I know what it is to 'give' and see it mulitiplied back to me.   

My two children are a walking, living breathing example of this life.  My faiith was all I had to give them and speaking God's word over them night and day...day and night.  I planted my 'seed' for them with every tithe and offering and trust me...the key words I prayed over my babies, each night while they were sleeping... 

"Lord, my children are blessed with your Divine wisdom.   Blessings and Mercies shall follow them all the days of their lives.   They will not be poor and impoverished.  You are blessing their hearts and minds with the mind of you.  I thank you for giving them wisdom for witty inventions, and that you will bless the work of their hands, that they will work earnestly and give you glory and you will bless them and every good thing that their hands shall touch shall prosper..." 

Testimony:   At age 16 my son, pleaded with me to release him from going to school.  He cried, and that he just could not handle the school system.    I protested until the Lord spoke to me and said, "Let him go."   My son chose to attend a trade school for carpentry.   Everything he touched, God blessed.  My son not only is a licensed contractor, but he is also an honest one.   He works hard, but what God did was He gave my son a passion for re-building homes.  

My daughter ...she too did not finish school until later.  She married very young had children, but God gave her a gift and a talent and she has prospered tremendously as a SAHM.   She has 'favor in the Market Place... again the word of God in full operation in her life.  

The result of 'seed time and harverst.'    Relaxer... 'I KNOW'...Yes, I know   I live by these principles every single day.

timichelle;  I also understand what you are saying and I agree with you as well as I do with Relaxer.   For there has got to be a standard and a humble mindset among us as Christians when it comes to finances.  

With what I shared above, the 'prosperity message' wth all of it's truth and blessings which I still live this very day...yet it has been taken out of proportion and it has gone out of control, but too, too, many leaders in the Church.  And it's wrong.   It's just plain wrong.   

You see, every thing that God gives us is a gift, but satan will always come and pervert the gift...anything to make what God intends for good into something negative.

Greed is in the Body of Christ and it's in too many leaders.   But not all.  It's those 'few' that have taken full advantage of God's gift of blessings and have steam rolled down the aisles for collection after collection and it is just not right.  

There is a right and a wrong way to do things.  Or better, God's way or satan's way.   

God has prospered my children because of an established Covenent that He made with me.  That if I obeyed Him, he would bless the work of my hands and that He will bless my seed...my children.   "Blessed is the fruit of my body" is what I confessed by faith, day in and day out.   "My seed, my babies are blessed.  They are blessed coming in and blessed going out. their footsteps are ordered of the Lord and with each step they are blessed with the blessings of obedience."

My children will tell you, they work hard for what they have.  God has prospered them with cars, as homeowners, and as business owners.  When my daughther's washer broke; she and her husband went out the same day and had a new one.   Didn't have to 'wait' for a pay check to come in first.   But it was faith which allowed them to prosper to that degree.   They purchased their new home by faith; first Blacks in the neighborhood; furniture and appliances paid for in cash.   But it was faith that allowed to work for years and save enough money to enable them to do so. 

As Christians we are not supposed to be 'strapped' and broke down.  It's crazy.   God says that we would LEND and not borrow.   I love it!  For when a person is under a cloud of debt, and other money distresses, it's not God!   It's not.     But it is God to have these needs met as they arise.     

It's just that the 'greed' of men who have misused God's principles for prosperity has made the "Prosperity' message a villian when it's not Prosperity, *but the people who abuse it are the true villians.*

*Our men and women in leadship are not helping when they flaunt their 'blessings' and proclaim, 'we' can have the same if we continue to give.  Most of the time, they are covering their butts for messing up the Church budget.    Just say, the Church is short of money and ask for help from those who are able.   Or better yet, use the faith that you are preaching to congregation.  Prove what they are saying for 'us' to do by doing it themselves.   (Hebrews 11)*

God does want us, His children to prosper...His way.   I'm not King Saul.  I'm not going to disregard God's principles and look to other sources outside of God to be blessed or to have my needs met.  NO!  I'm going staight to the Word of God, and follow the guidelines and principles which He has set in order for me to follow.   I don't need to 'Manifest' something that God has already 'manifested' for me in His word.  I just go to Him directly and He has never, never, ever said no.  

tmichelle and Relaxer, the two of you are sweethearts.    I hear you both.   And in truth you truly are *BOTH* correct.   

This is just a complicated subject, that's all.


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## PaperClip (Mar 26, 2007)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> tmichelle and Rehab...
> 
> The two of you have acutally been on the same page with this topic from the very beginning.
> 
> ...


 
((((HUGS ALL AROUND))))

Thank you for reminding us (me at least) of the big picture. It's been a pleasure to be a part of this lively conversation because we all allowed each other to express and flow without personal attack. I am grateful for this....


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## Shimmie (Mar 26, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> ((((HUGS ALL AROUND))))
> 
> Thank you for reminding us (me at least) of the big picture. It's been a pleasure to be a part of this lively conversation because we all allowed each other to express and flow without personal attack. I am grateful for this....


 
Amen, Angel.   satan will not get any glory out of this.  Never!  

(Shimmie turns on her heel and stomps the devil in his head-double time).  For satan is under our feet.  And there isn't a thing that he can do about it.  Not Ever!!! 

((((( All around love and hugs to everyone from me too))))  .


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## Nuelle (Mar 31, 2007)

tmichelle said:
			
		

> Perhaps because I always thought I would be single, or perhaps because my sister is single and writes for Christian Single magazine I have always cared about the singles in the church.  While the Lord has blessed me with a loving Christian husband who is a dream come true, I know the heart ache that comes with living without a relationship you always wanted because I feel that there are MANY similarities between singlenss and infertility (which I've been going through).
> 
> Anyway, not to post just another IR thread   After viewing the preview on the dvd concerning single black women and the church and hearing, once again, how slim the pickings are for black men, I was wondering how many black Christian women are willing to open their hearts to a non-black man.
> 
> ...



I haven't read through this whole thread, but I thank you for reminding us what is truly at stake. A few nights ago, after reading your post, I decided to ask my mother what her opinion was, and she said that she hopes that my sister and I will marry Christian men. Well, I tried to get her to be more specific, as in does he need to be of a certain nationality..etc, but she said that "if he is a true Christian, everything else will fall in its right place." I really liked what she had to say and it reminds me of what my pastor said once, which is that we should "stop limiting God's grace." I've read some of the IR threads and it seems that we limit our own happiness by worrying too much about what society will think of us, when we should worry about what God thinks of us.

Togetherness made a great point. When I think about whom God will put in my life, I think of a black man by default, but I try to remember that God knows best. We just have to be open-minded enough so when God speaks into our lives, we can recognize His voice and have the courage to act according to His will. Stay blessed!!!


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## cocoberry10 (Mar 31, 2007)

Nuelle said:
			
		

> I haven't read through this whole thread, but I thank you for reminding us what is truly at stake. A few nights ago, after reading your post, I decided to ask my mother what her opinion was, and she said that she hopes that my sister and I will marry Christian men. Well, I tried to get her to be more specific, as in does he need to be of a certain nationality..etc, but she said that "if he is a true Christian, everything else will fall in its right place." I really liked what she had to say and it reminds me of what my pastor said once, which is that we should "stop limiting God's grace." I've read some of the IR threads and it seems that we limit our own happiness by worrying too much about what society will think of us, *when we should worry about what God thinks of us*.
> 
> Togetherness made a great point. When I think about whom God will put in my life, I think of a black man by default, but I try to remember that God knows best. We just have to be open-minded enough so when God speaks into our lives, we can recognize His voice and have the courage to act according to His will. Stay blessed!!!



This is beautifully written!


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## Maa Maa omo mti (Apr 1, 2007)

I've always told myself I'm open to others but in actuality I can't really see myself with anyone but a black guy.  Being that I'm african I don't buy into the whole there aren't enough black men mentality.  All my african and west indian friends are married to black guys who are doing well in life.  I feel like why shouldn't I too find someone.  I've tried to close my eyes and be open to others but for some reason I just couldn't go any further.  I put too much expectations on another race to be with me.  Like the other race will have to seriously chase me and make me realize he is for me.  Don't get me wrong I don't just let any black guy into my life they too have to come correct but I honestly put another race on another platform in which they have to come extra correct and work extra heard to make me realize he is for me.

I know this is defeating the purpose but I just can't help it.


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## golden bronze (Apr 4, 2007)

I prefer Black men, but I have dated others. If a man is who God chooses for you, who are you to argue that he isn't the color and package you wanted?

I like Black men because of the common bond, the need not to explain, our history, and their looks. I am not looking for a non-black man but if he came I would accept him as the one God sent.


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## Zeal (Apr 10, 2007)

togethernessinchrist said:
			
		

> This may sound bad but I'd really like someone who is ambitious - in whatever field he's in. I'd also prefer someone who has passion - in something OUTSIDE of work; languages, the arts, sports w/e.
> 
> What I mean is, I am becoming an attorney. I work hard and I've worked hard for a long time because I feel that much is required to whom much is given, so I'd like someone who has worked hard as well - in whatever field. I am really serious about using my career to help others, specifically youth and minority/immigrant women. So I want my man to work hard to - in whatever field - music, nursing, investment banking, medicine, law, public health, performing, accounting, whatever. He doesn't have to be rich, nor does he have to be brilliant. Just hard working and ambitious, eager to support his family and help his community.
> 
> ...


 
Agree..... and congrats on your weight loss.


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## delp (Apr 13, 2007)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> tmichelle and Rehab...
> 
> The two of you have acutally been on the same page with this topic from the very beginning.
> 
> ...





Sooo True... I definately agree with the red portion. You have a wonderful testimony.


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## Hidden_Angel (Apr 30, 2007)

I didn't even know i had voted..

Honesty.. whatever God gives me but I know i want me a stong black man..


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## trinigul (Apr 30, 2007)

Hidden_Angel said:
			
		

> Honesty.. whatever God gives me but I know i want me a stong black man..


 

Ditto!!!!!!!!


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## moonglowdiva (Mar 24, 2009)

*I'm open minded when it come to men. I will never say what I won't do.*


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## Bunny77 (Mar 24, 2009)

Not in the least. Never did.


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## BeautifulFlower (Mar 24, 2009)

I would marry a white man in a heart beat.


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## inthepink (Mar 25, 2009)

prettyfaceANB said:


> I would marry a white man in a heart beat.



Ditto......


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## msa (Mar 29, 2009)

prettyfaceANB said:


> I would marry a white man in a heart beat.




Not I.

Lord please let him be black


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## kayte (Sep 23, 2009)

> how slim the pickings are for black men


I dont  know why I feel that is only propaganda..or perception 
to edge sentiment towards the upsell of the white man

I get impatient 

if you're attracted to white men..and your ultimate gosl in marriage
is to marry one ...if that's the premise ...I say go for it
there is some thing beautiful to me about differing heritages 
coming together 

and many black women are adamant publicly or privately 
a white is the ONLY real option..and that is the right of each woman 
to each her own! and power to her...

do you _really_ need an excuse to validate that? 
and why must there be an ammunition of rationale about black guys 
being less spiritual..lees  available ..their image is messed up
.blah blah..it's biased 
it' a prejudice to justify selecting white men
imho

because there is no such thing as white is better*..it's not *
it's only different ..to an extent... because..men across the board are 
brothers and EQUALLY capable of vice as much 
as share Christian values victory and hope  

love is love
at the end of the day..as long as the beloved loves the Lord
and treats his woman as the Shulamite 
color is meaningless


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 23, 2009)

Culturally speaking, if one comes my way, whether from Siberia to Antarctica...I'm running the other way.  I cannot handle it...not again.  My issue is cultural concerning mindsets...generalizing, because I know people are individuals.  But there are far too many with the "come here woman" attitude than not.  I can imagine coupling that mentality with christianity and attempting to reinforce it, justifying it scripturally., basically grasping at straws.

The strong, in-control, Black male christian...quaint...like machismo...but not for me.


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## Prudent1 (Sep 23, 2009)

kayte said:


> *I dont know why I feel that is only propaganda..or perception *
> to edge sentiment towards the upsell of the white man
> 
> I get impatient
> ...



ITA especially with the bolded. I def love the physical attributes of black men but, I know God knows me and him better than we know ourselves. So, if DH turns out to me Puerto Rican or Japanese, etc that is alright with me  cuz I have learned to trust God above all. I do believe we need to be careful who we listen to. We must think about what we think about. In other words there are no man shortages in God's kingdom just as there is no recession in God's kingdom. I stay informed as I can about things that are going on in this world but I do not have to accept the same fate of the masses b/c I am not of this world just as Christ was not of this world. I wouldn't date an unbeliever anyway regardless to statistical figures. I don't want anyone but the one God has for me.


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## Highly Favored8 (Sep 23, 2009)

msa said:


> Not I.
> 
> Lord please let him be black


 

ITA.... I want a black man as well.


I would not marry a white man. Not ever. They are not my taste. IMHO


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## Shimmie (Sep 23, 2009)

Prudent1 said:


> [/B]
> ITA especially with the bolded.
> 
> *I def love the physical attributes of black men ... *
> ...


 
White men have 'attributes' too.     

And you are completely right... there are NO shortages of men in all of God's creation nor His Kingdom.     God betrothes His daughters and betrothed His daughters, they shall be.

No matter what color, all men are beautiful and most are well 'attributed'... 

I love being a 'girl'     I am a beautiful compliment to God's gift of my Mr. 'Him'.  

The only way to enjoy a man is to be a 'Godly' woman; and vice versa.  The only way to enjoy a woman is to be a 'Godly' man; whom God hath joined together and whom no one can separate.


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## inthepink (Sep 23, 2009)

I love this thread.  Some things I deal with in my life - dating, right now (as it has been for a while) so this is right on time...(again).  Funny how encouragement just sneaks up on you.


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## kayte (Sep 24, 2009)

> if you're attracted to white men..and your ultimate gosl in marriage
> is to marry one ...if that's the premise ...I say go for it





> ITA.... I want a black man as well





> Lord please let him be black



*the same applies *..if your preference is a black man..go for it  
there is some thing very beautiful about the same heritages coming together 
I said the same thing about an IR because neither is better 
it is only based the preference of the woman 
but to make it about one race of man being the better pick of man 
does not feel within the realm of God's love.... but merely political
and some tones of racism..imho



> Culturally speaking, if one comes my way, whether from Siberia to Antarctica...I'm running the other way. I cannot handle it...not again. My issue is cultural concerning mindsets...generalizing, because I know people are individuals. But there are far too many with the "come here woman" attitude than not. I can imagine coupling that mentality with christianity and attempting to reinforce it, justifying it scripturally., basically grasping at straws.
> 
> The strong, in-control, Black male christian...quaint...like machismo...but not for me.


no offense _but THANK GOD _I do not subscribe to this belief ^ 

though I have experinced such attitudes..years of interacting of romantic liasions ..lol
and speaking from an anthropoligical viewpoint ..and copious research
lolololol 
have led Dr Kayte to conclude without doubt and from her personal data bank
that men 

have stank attitudes in ALL colors....ALL COLORS ALL HERTIAGES..
and ALL are in need of God's hand
and let the people say amen...

all joking aside
it is a sad and grievous thing to pinpoint such a profile and say this reps the black male
NOT TRUE


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## divya (Sep 24, 2009)

No! Let the Lord choose him!


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 24, 2009)

Nope, vanilla and chocolate love are still up there ahahahaha.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 24, 2009)

kayte said:


> Dr Kayte to conclude without doubt and from her personal data bank
> t*hat men
> 
> have stank attitudes in ALL colors....ALL COLORS ALL HERTIAGES..*
> ...



I didn't necessarily say it repped the Black male...I said that I don't prefer Black men (African Americans nor Africans) simply for this 'come-here' machismo.    But looking again, there's not a day that goes by that Black women don't complain about the Black male.  I'm just being honest.  There's this cultural element to it that rubs me wrong!!!  wrong!!!!  

It's not to say that there are no Black men worthy out there...there are (taken!).  I just don't prefer to find out yet another one has that funky attitude that wreaks of old world nonsense.  And I am aware of the plethora of stank out there across the colors of man .  I just seriously can't stand it as I mentioned.  Why?  It's like the difference between chicken stock and glace'...it's just intense.  I've seen a lot of womanizing and belittling and it rubs me wrong.  I'm used to being free and important.  I'm talking the Black men in my family.  

So when somebody says "strong Black male to me," I get ansy and think of all the guys I know who have that kind of attitude...blech!  I'm being honest and this coming from post-doc Gv-Na-Gi-Tlv-Ge-i lol. I'm picky...don't want a white nerdy needy guy either.  I don't want machismo nor iron fisted men.   I want G-d to design him but I'm afraid that "him" might not have been made yet.   KNowing my luck, Mr. Right might look like this


 in any color of the rainbow.  I might have to wear a blindfold.  Don't take offense.  I just see a lot of hurt Black women out there..hurt by Black men.  Maybe the community should really open up this discussion in church...and get to the bottom of it.  Some of it is cultural expectation.  Some of it is just pure nonsense and sin.


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## Rapunzel* (Sep 24, 2009)

Im open to marry any christian man. In the end its God's will, not mines.


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## chicacanella (Sep 25, 2009)

*Well, I have to admit something. I'm not married at this time but I do know who my future husband is going to be. But at one time, I was thinking that the "pickings" of African-American men were so slim that I would probably end up marrying a Nigerian man or a white man.*

*I was even thinking about where I could move, looking for places where there were eligible Nigerian bachelors. Just alot of stuff trying to situate myself in surroundings of good Black or white men, wasn't really thinking African-American.*

*I'm just waiting on God to bring this man, my future husband to the forefront and he does consider himself African-American but he is kind of like Heinz 57.*


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## JollyGal (Sep 26, 2009)

I am more than willing to open my heart to a non-black Christian man.

His faith is VERY important so is his lifestyle


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## Duchesse (Sep 27, 2009)

If I had it my way, my future husband would look like Ray Lewis, and be African American, and raised from a similar background as myself (and be Christian of course). But I'm not _only _looking for (....truthfully I'm not actively looking at all) for an AA man, but I would be super duper happy if he was. Physically, I'm attracted to black men,..esp. those who look like linebackers , and culturally would love it if my man shared what makes me unique in how I was raised and what I am familiar with.

But I would not turn away from a slightly lithe white or Asian man, _if _we gelled on the many other important areas that I'm looking for in a husband.

..........but I really do pray he has nice even brown skin, and is over 6 feet and 220lbs!


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## Prudent1 (Sep 28, 2009)

*White men have 'attributes' too.  *

Yes, they do   I just like what I see when I look at fuller lips, athletic build, brown skin, broad noses, etc. :wink2:


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## Shimmie (Sep 28, 2009)

Prudent1 said:


> *White men have 'attributes' too. *
> 
> Yes, they do   I just like what I see when I look at fuller lips, athletic build, brown skin, broad noses, etc. :wink2:


  Chocolate is so fattening and delicious.


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## Laela (Sep 29, 2009)

LOL @ Kayte, GV and Prudent.. ya'll cracking me up. 

Be careful what you pray for, you just might get it


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 30, 2009)

Laela said:


> LOL @ Kayte, GV and Prudent.. ya'll cracking me up.
> 
> Be careful what you pray for, you just might get it



Dear G-d, not the nerd in glasses...I'm praying AGAINST that one  

Come heee'unh woe-mun!  I'd have to bust a cap...


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## luckiestdestiny (Sep 30, 2009)

I want a guy with a good heart. so far that seems to be my SO who is black.  He is the cute nerd with glasses who is about to become a doctor within a year when he graduates Medical School.  You don't want the nerd, I'll take them any day!  He's hysterically funny, kind, very cute, and also strong. He will stand up for me, and he won't take ish but he does it in a calm "Barack Obama" kind of way. Would I date outside my race? Yes!  My parents used to joke that I was the United Nations. Though abstinent (I have to say that up front as I wasn't bed hopping only dating), I'd date and have boyfriends of all races. I'm equal opportunity. One day my dad had the nerve to tell this guy we didn't order Chinese, and he was my date lol!   My dad used to say he never knew who'd be there when he opened the door.  It was like a game show: Black? Spanish? White? Asian?  I do not discriminate. I only wait on God to show me the right person. Oh and someone joked about "nerds", I'm attracted to intelligent, strong, funny men, so as long as they don't act awkward let me at em!  I'll take an intelligent guy any day. It shows independence and strength to stray from the norms of being "cool" and crack open and book and study so that you can secure a wonderful future for yourself and your family.  I'm definitely doing the same myself. Nerds rock!


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 30, 2009)

luckiestdestiny said:


> I want a guy with a good heart. so far that seems to be my SO who is black.  He is the cute nerd with glasses who is about to become a doctor within a year when he graduates Medical School.  *You don't want the nerd, I'll take them any day!*  He's hysterically funny, kind, very cute, and also strong. He will stand up for me, and he won't take ish but he does it in a calm "Barack Obama" kind of way.



Well, that's wonderful...but I don't think you saw my first post...it was a specific inept nerd more along the retarded side lol.  I provided a pic.  I think we all want guys with good hearts but also a savoir faire.  BTW, I was also a nerd growing up and I also wore glasses.   And I'm educated...go figure. It's all in jest.


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## inthepink (Sep 30, 2009)

I really like cute nerds!!!  But they can't be meek!


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## luckiestdestiny (Sep 30, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Well, that's wonderful...but I don't think you saw my first post...it was a specific inept nerd more along the retarded side lol.*Okie dokie! I don't think I saw it lol!* I provided a pic. I think we all want guys with good hearts but also a savoir faire. BTW, I was also a nerd growing up and I also wore glasses. *Nerds rock.* And I'm educated...go figure. *Exactly.  I just thought it was a stab at the good guys but in jest and I just wanted to point out that the good guys rock. But I see that I misinterpreted it!*It's all in jest


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## luckiestdestiny (Sep 30, 2009)

hairlove said:


> I really like cute nerds!!! But they can't be meek!


 No! I agree. I like guys who are outgoing.


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## justicefighter1913 (Sep 30, 2009)

luckiestdestiny said:


> I want a guy with a good heart. so far that seems to be my SO who is black. He is the cute nerd with glasses who is about to become a doctor within a year when he graduates Medical School. You don't want the nerd, I'll take them any day! He's hysterically funny, kind, very cute, and also strong. He will stand up for me, and he won't take ish but he does it in a calm "Barack Obama" kind of way. Would I date outside my race? Yes! My parents used to joke that I was the United Nations. Though abstinent (I have to say that up front as I wasn't bed hopping only dating), I'd date and have boyfriends of all races. I'm equal opportunity. One day my dad had the nerve to tell this guy we didn't order Chinese, and he was my date lol! My dad used to say he never knew who'd be there when he opened the door. It was like a game show: Black? Spanish? White? Asian? I do not discriminate. I only wait on God to show me the right person. Oh and someone joked about "nerds", I'm attracted to intelligent, strong, funny men, so as long as they don't act awkward let me at em! I'll take an intelligent guy any day. It shows independence and strength to stray from the norms of being "cool" and crack open and book and study so that you can secure a wonderful future for yourself and your family. I'm definitely doing the same myself. Nerds rock!


 
SAME HERE! My family has no idea who I'll show up with next. My dad told me that my I'm no longer a "Robinson," my last name is "Rodriquez" or "Hernandez."  Whatevez! My family is just happy as long as he's a good guy and he's a Christian.


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## Angelicus (Jan 5, 2010)

I would like to have a good, Christian male!

*Vanilla Bean, I hope you're listening*


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## pink219 (Mar 2, 2010)

Shimmie said:


> I want 'Black' first, and first again, and even again...Black first.   For while I was being pursued by White men, my heart couldn't yield.  No matter how flattering, I just couldn't yield.   For my heart was crying for him with skin Black like mine.
> 
> (Selah)




Ooh girl...that sounds like poetry!!!

That's DEEP and poetically honest.


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