# Christian prospective on stem cell research



## Renewed1 (Mar 9, 2009)

*Obama to reverse limits on stem cell work

*http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090307/...ama_stem_cells

This conversation is going on in the political thread and I was just curious about the Christian perspective on the matter.

I'm personally against embryoic stem cell research, simply because I feel that we are disposing of life.  People get into technicalities of when life begins when the simple fact is that we all started off as that little dot in our mother's womb. 

I guess my republican Christian friend was right.  She said that Obama administration will not reflect positively for the Christian community (beliefs).  When she spoke those words I felt to a small degree that she was right.  

I don't know, but I felt a sadness when he approved this bill.


Please keep it respectful.


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## Nefertiti0906 (Mar 9, 2009)

My post is not welcomed here


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## PaperClip (Mar 9, 2009)

I am one who DID seek in-depth information on stem cell research and I STILL came down on the side to vote against it.

This issue was on the state of Michigan's November 2008 ballot. The measure asked voters to approve stem cell research under certain conditions, INCLUDING EMBRYONIC stem cells. The selling point from the side advocating the measure strategically avoided the EMBRYONIC aspect and instead focused on income-generating opportunities that this kind of research would bring to this state with the most depressed economy in the union. Go figure.

I believe that life begins at CONCEPTION, which means that an embryo is a LIFE. One argument I was told (from one of my Christian friends who is a medical doctor) about the Christian vote for embryonic stem cell research is that at least some use would come out of the embryos by giving them to science versus them being discarded altogether. I understand that argument. And yet I still struggle with the point of the embryos even being created at all if their fate is to be eventually discarded.


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## Nefertiti0906 (Mar 9, 2009)

My post is not welcomed here


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## divya (Mar 9, 2009)

I have not developed a stance on this issue but what Nef and Foxy have said makes sense to me. But beyond that...

Do any of the administrations reflect positively for the Christian community in every way? Too many Republicans are one-sided. Do they really think that true Christianity was reflected when Republicans (save 1) were all for the war? *smh*


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## PaperClip (Mar 9, 2009)

Nefertiti0906 said:


> That is my position as well. They are being discarded so why not use it for medical research?
> 
> I understand that you feel that life begins at conception but with the case of these embryos' they are just embryos' with no future, no potential for growth. They are frozen at a point in time and will not grow to become mature human beings.


 
Then I kindly advise you to take the advice you noted in your post about those who would condemn those opposing opinions as if such opinions are formed out of the side of their face. It's condescending.

Another aspect of this is the lack of control or oversight about when/how embryos are made. Who determines how much, how many, from whom? The Michigan legislation noted that eggs to make the embryos would come from women who WILLINGLY DONATED their eggs; they could not SELL their eggs. Again, Michigan is the most economically depressed state in the union right now. Give this woman the right dollar amount, could she sell her eggs like people donate blood and get paid for it? Sure, the eggs are hers to do whatever she wants to do with them. The overarching point is the lack of control/oversight as to how these embryos are created.


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## Nefertiti0906 (Mar 9, 2009)

FoxyScholar said:


> *Then I kindly advise you to take the advice you noted in your post about those who would condemn those opposing opinions as if such opinions are formed out of the side of their face. It's condescending.*


 
Come again? 

I don't see anything wrong with your position at all and I understand where you're coming from. 

I had the impression that we were just debating the issue that's why I offered a counter argument.  If you took my post to be condescending I apologize because that was not my intent at all


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 9, 2009)

Nefertiti0906 said:


> I think stem cell research is a great idea. People have the misconception that stem cells are derived only from embryo's.
> 
> 
> Here is some information from the Mayo clinic Website:
> ...




 I was just thinking about this!!!  Didn't they find a source in teeth recently?  It was something like that.  As far as embryos, I don't know if the soul is present or not.  There is an ancient tradition in judaism of the body present without soul yet.  I'm not sure iwhen it is embodied...at birth, along which stage of development??  I still don't like that they make them and keep them in petrie dishes, tho.  Whatever, it's still a human being.  It's not ever going to be a lion or something lol.


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## Renewed1 (Mar 9, 2009)

Sorry I just woke up, so I apologize in advance if this doesn't make sense.

If I remember correctly at one point of time, scientists were looking to take cells from various parts of the body ie bones, blood, etc. and I guess clone or find a way to use those cells.  I was fine with that, because no one was dying to retrieve those cells.

With this bill, they are taking parts from embryos, which I believe is a individual person.  Yes, I understand the argument that these embryos was going to be discarded.  But if the scientists were going to use embryonic cells that were going to be disposed of; what will the scientists use once those embryonic cells are gone?


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## PaperClip (Mar 9, 2009)

Here's an article from today's Detroit Free Press on this subject from a Michigan perspective:

http://www.freep.com/article/200903...director++Stem+cell+funds+will+stimulate+jobs
U-M director: Stem cell funds will stimulate jobs

This morning at the University of Michigan, the single room, with the single employee that is legally allowed to study embryonic stem cells, will no longer be so singular.

With the passage of Proposal 2 in November, which loosens state laws on embryonic stem cell research, and the lifting of the Bush-era ban on funding by President Obama this morning, Michigan scientists can now apply for federal dollars to create and study the type of stem cell that can become almost any cell in the human body, and could cure many diseases.

And, says Eva Feldman, director of the A. Alfred Taubman Research Institute at U-M, there will be jobs.

“This is one of the many programs to stimulate science as part of stimulating the economy,” she said. 

The stem cells will come from embryos created during in vitro fertilization and not used to create a pregnancy. Researchers nationwide have said such embryos are destined for trash cans, so why not be able to coax them into nerve cells, blood cells and other cells to potential treat disease, test drugs and better understand reproduction.


In 2001, former President Bush stopped the National Institutes of Health from funding embryonic stem cell research on all but a handful of cells that had already been created. He said the destruction of embryos needed to produce the cells was immoral. Both John McCain and Obama campaigned on reforming that order.

In 2008, after multiple attempts to change state law through the Legislature, concerned citizens in Michigan formed a ballot committee which put Proposal 2 on the November ballot. At the time, it was illegal to destroy an embryo in the state and illegal to donate unused embryos for research. They spent millions to eke out a 52% win. 


“Fortunately, we were able to convince the citizens of Michigan to vote for Proposal 2. I’m proud of our state for taking away this archaic law,” said Alfred Taubman, the Michigan businessman who has given millions to U-M for biomedical research, including stem cell research.


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## Shimmie (Mar 9, 2009)

Nefertiti0906 said:


> I think stem cell research is a great idea. People have the misconception that stem cells are derived only from embryo's.
> 
> 
> Here is some information from the Mayo clinic Website:
> ...


Nooooooooo, this isn't the case for the majority of Christians.  

We are indeed educated which is why we cannot without a conscience condone embryos being used as unwilling sacrifices for experimentation.

Scientists have indeed used embryos, hence they would not have their reasons to press on with the use of them.

Granted there are definitely other methods for obtaining stem cells, which should be the only method that one who identifies themselves as a Christian should support.     

Folks can decide and feel as they wish on this issue, but they cannot put a cover over the truth of it just to ease their conscience or justify the means of it.  

I say this respectfully and in peace.


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## Shimmie (Mar 9, 2009)

I've pulled one of my posts from the thread in the Political forum:
___________

"They" are definitely pushing 'hyperbole' with this issue. They are playing on people's vunerabiities and desperations. 

I have to be 'gentle' with this and with my responses, because there is an overwhelming sense of fear and pain in so many lives due to sickness and diseases.   I've lived it, so I can understand the feelings of those who support it.    It's heart wrenching to see someone you love or an innocent child suffer and die. 

But I can see this thing going way off into darkness.  And it won't be as much about healing as it will be about espionage. Something's not quite right here.  The more I read, the more I'm becoming aware of it. 

What I'm about to say is not about anyone personally.  I'm just thinking in terms of the entire spectrum of this issue. 

Thoughts....

*What scares me is the distachment from the humanity of these embryos, such as.   "They're going to be killed anyway...." . 

There is something so eery with this comment there.    It's like telling a hundred year old senior, 'you're going to die anyway, let me rip your heart out and use it to transplant it into someone else. " I dunno....  Where is the respect for life, all around*. 

To me, (_and it's just me thinking here_). To me, it's seems as if humans are so fearful that it has forced them into a corner to take whatever deems right, or what's handed to them; and this fear has forced them into thinking of themselves and no one else. In case they or a loved one gets sick, this is what they will have at whatever cost of life it took to utilize it. 

No one wants to die; I understand that. No one wants to see a loved one die. I FULLY understand that. The same applies to an innocent baby, a precious living, full of life, embryo who did not ask to be created, who has harmed no one, let alone does not deserve to die either for whatever reason. We all started out as an embryo....

There are indeed alternatives. 

I'm praying for a peaceable outcome that will benefit life to life; not from death. 
__________________


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## TrustMeLove (Mar 9, 2009)

Like I said in the PT forum.

This is liken to an organ transplant to me personally.

 If you don't think in-vitro fertilization is right than I can see why one can't be for  stem cell research using left over fertilized cells from in-vitro fertilization.

These eggs will be discarded/killed/destroyed. Their parents have said they want their babies/the eggs/their cells to do some good for man kind so they have given them to research to one day better the human race.

Same as with an organ transplant. Someone is about to die. They or their loved ones (I think this is possible) have decided to give their organs to someone to save/better their life.  Same thing in my mind.

But, for those who believe invitro fertilization is wrong..the idea of folks taking out multiple eggs and combing them together on a petri dish with seminal fluid to create fertilized eggs so that a couple might have a chance at having a baby..than it is very clear why this whole stem cell reserach from fertilized eggs is something that you can't be for.


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## Shimmie (Mar 9, 2009)

I just wish folks would call it what it is.   An embryo is a baby.  As Christians we know this.  God says it as clear as day in His word:

"Before the foundations of the earth, I knew your name..."  

Quite plainly, He knew us BEFORE we were formed in the womb.   

Just because an embryo is formed in a dish, as opposed to a uterus, doesn't stop it from being an embryo, a human life.   If this were not so, then it's foolish for one to expect it to be implanted into a woman to carry to term.  

This is not something to be played with; neither by Christians or non Christians.   This is still playing with someone's human life and it's wrong.   It's crytic and it goulish.    In embryotic form, if God thought of us as only a mass, or a mass of cells, then none of us would be here today.  None of us.   

Life is life, no matter what size a human form comes in, it's still life which God has designed to live. 

God has already given us His directive for healing and He does it well.  Eat right, live right, come to Him in prayer, and we shall be healed.   It's an open invitaiton for those who will receive it.   

There's so much to say on this subject for those who call themselves followers of Jesus Christ.   

God never gave us permission to create a life only to kill it.   And to yield to the world's mindset, that "they only going to be killed anyway', makes one an accomplish to massive destruction of innocent lives who did not ask to be created only to be killed.  

Something is not right about this... it's just not right.   I don't wish to start a ruckus or any upheavels about it.   But my spirit says, it's just not right.  

As Christians, we All know better and we all know right from wrong.  There is no middle ground; no fence to straddle.    Before jumping on the world's band wagon, I'd ask God first, what does He say about this?   As Christians, we are His sheep and His sheep know His voice and therefore, we will have His answer, which is "Thou Shalt Not Kill." 

No excuses, no covers for this one.      We know better.

Blessings to you precious ones....


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## PaperClip (Mar 9, 2009)

TrustMeLove said:


> Like I said in the PT forum.
> 
> This is liken to an organ transplant to me personally.
> 
> ...


 
Well, not exactly. I am for RESPONSIBLE MEDICINE with regard to invitro fertilization. Octomom is a living witness about responsibility, inside and outside the womb. As I asked upthread: who decides when, how, where, and from whom? Where's the cap? Where are the controls? 

This latest legislation re. embryonic stem cell research can result in some very unintended harmful, ethical, moral, and physical consequences.


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## TrustMeLove (Mar 9, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> I just wish folks would call it what it is.   An embryo is a baby.  As Christians we know this.  God says it as clear as day in His word:
> 
> "Before the foundations of the earth, I knew your name..."
> 
> ...



I appreciate your responses Shimmie, but not all Christians see it the way you see it. And we have the Holy Spirit inside of us and are not convicted. No we aren't jumping on anyones bandwagon this is what we believe as Christians. 

I plainly spoke of the people who gave of their egg and sperm as the parents. That they have made a choice to donate their baby to something greater than a fiery furnance.  However, if you believe folks are playing God by taking steps outside of a man and a woman physically coming together to create a baby than I COMPLETELY understand your position..I just don't agree.



However, I do believe that they could be more..what's the word..umm I can't think of it, but they shouldn't try to fertilize sooo many eggs at one time. Especially, when they aren't going to implant them all. They need to take extreme care and caution when doing these procedures. Why fertilize 15-20 eggs when you are only going to use 1-3? More regulation.

Help me better understand your position. Do you think invitro is wrong? Do you think organ transplants or blood infusions are wrong?


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## TrustMeLove (Mar 9, 2009)

Also, 

I have just a different feeling towards it all. I see these cells becoming intertwined into someone elses body. That they go one to live semi developed in someone elses body. 

I can also see what some are saying by seeing this thing developing into folks putting sperm and eggs together just to get the cells. So no intentions of having a baby, but only intentions of using the cells to heal or cure diseases. Now if you believe that when the cells in the egg and the cells in the sperm come together and a fertilized egg is formed that at that point you have a baby...than I can see why you can not support stem cell research.  Because after the research is over than it will just be a season of harvesting if they can't duplicate the results in lab using other means besides rejected fertilized eggs.

It can be complicated for some...when you look towards the future of If's and If nots.


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## Shimmie (Mar 9, 2009)

TrustMeLove said:


> I appreciate your responses Shimmie, but not all Christians see it the way you see it. And we have the Holy Spirit inside of us and are not convicted. No we aren't jumping on anyones bandwagon this is what we believe as Christians.
> 
> I plainly spoke of the people who gave of their egg and sperm as the parents. That they have made a choice to donate their baby to something greater than a fiery furnance. However, if you believe folks are playing God by taking steps outside of a man and a woman physically coming together to create a baby than I COMPLETELY understand your position..I just don't agree.
> 
> ...


As Christians, let's put aside what 'we' think or say.  What does God have to say about it?   Would He agree with this measure?   Would He grieve over it, as He has with so many of our compromises to life?

What would God say, if you were to sit before Him and truly ask Him if this were right or wrong?

We can't presume, that because we all have the 'same' spirit with this.   For we do not agree with the issues.   God is not the author of confusion.  

We have to go before God and ask Him, what spirit is behind my views on this.   We all know that satan is a mighty deceiver and he seeks after the very elect of God.  

I've noticed many who 'say' they are followers of Christ, yet the path is no where near Him.   

This issue is very clear, cut and dry with our Lord above.  Would He condone this?   Would He, truly condone this?   We can't say, I think He would, nor can we say, "God understands" neither can we put a blinder over this and say, "God doesn't want others to suffer".     

The answer is God is straight forward when it comes to life and death.   Life or Death, Blessing or Cursing,  He says to choose life.

There are no other factors to consider, 'choose life.'   

There ARE other options. Other alternatives, yet science has opted not to pursue them or place them as priority.   It's easier to sin than it is to forego it.   We do not have to compromise and allow satan to use us against one another as accomplices who aid and abeit what God does not condone.   

These embryos are still human life.  Not even the parents have the right to decide their fate.   Children are a gift from God, an inheritance.   It would be more proper to honor them as humans, which these embryos are and to give them a respectful burial. 

As Christians, we have to bold enough to stand upon what God says is right, for there are many ways that seem right to man, but the end thereof is destruction.   The 'end' has been proven for these babies (embryos), which is total and utter destructio.   They are not the same as organ donations, to say so, is only an attempt to white wash the truth.   The truth being, that human lives are being degraded and destroyed for the sole purpose of the sin of man.  

Deep within my heart, I know that something is terribly, terribly wrong about this.  It's wrong.  And it doesn't have to occur. You see, there's more profit for someone to gain by using human embryos, and more benefit to it's backers, than it is for those human beings that will be experimented upon.   I know that something is very wrong. 

I'm going to ask the Holy Spirit to take over and allow us to hear and follow what He says.   

"Father God, what are you speaking to those who know you, about this issue?   I am listening with all of my heart.  In Jesus's name, Amen.  

Peace and blessings to you.... TML


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## TrustMeLove (Mar 9, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> As Christians, let's put aside what 'we' think or say.  What does God have to say about it?   Would He agree with this measure?   Would He grieve over it, as He has with so many of our compromises to life?
> 
> What would God say, if you were to sit before Him and truly ask Him if this were right or wrong?
> 
> ...



Thank you for this response. I will continue to support what has been placed in me to support and pray that you continue to do the same.

It all works out for the good. I see it everyday.


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## Shimmie (Mar 9, 2009)

FoxyScholar said:


> Here's an article from today's Detroit Free Press on this subject from a Michigan perspective:
> 
> http://www.freep.com/article/200903...director++Stem+cell+funds+will+stimulate+jobs
> U-M director: Stem cell funds will stimulate jobs
> ...


You know what Foxy.... regarding the bolded says volumes.........


But not in a positive sense.  In itsself, that comment alone is truly archaic.   

I dunno , but it just won't leave my spirit.  satan truly knows how to deceive society into agreeing with him.   

There are some things which should never be touched.   

Not that elephants have anything to do with this, but even they have sacred burial grounds.  

There are so many other paths to healing....this is not one that God condones.


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## Shimmie (Mar 9, 2009)

TrustMeLove said:


> Thank you for this response. I will continue to support what has been placed in me to support and pray that you continue to do the same.
> 
> It all works out for the good. I see it everyday.


You're most welcome, TML, 

Seek God's heart on this and hear Him on what you say is placed in you.  Otherwise you may not 'hear' Him when you need Him most.


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## PaperClip (Mar 9, 2009)

Nefertiti0906 said:


> I feel that a lot of Christians are not truly educated some issues and rather then researching it, they pull the "Chrisitian Card" and condemn the issue and those who support it.


 


Nefertiti0906 said:


> Come again?
> 
> I don't see anything wrong with your position at all and I understand where you're coming from.
> 
> I had the impression that we were just debating the issue that's why I offered a counter argument. If you took my post to be condescending I apologize because that was not my intent at all


 
The disclaimer is acknowledged. The first quote is what raised an eyebrow and prompted my initial response to you. It would have been more comfortable to dialogue (not debate) about the issue without the presumption of others not being informed on the subject matter at hand.


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## Shimmie (Mar 9, 2009)

divya said:


> I have not developed a stance on this issue but what Nef and Foxy have said makes sense to me. But beyond that...
> 
> Do any of the administrations reflect positively for the Christian community in every way? Too many Republicans are one-sided. Do they really think that true Christianity was reflected when Republicans (save 1) were all for the war? *smh*


Not 'all' Republicans were for the war.  As there were and are still many, many Democrats who agreed with the war's purpose.   It's not that one-sided on either side of the parties.  I know many Democrats whom I disagreed with, who felt and still feel the war in Irag was necessary.  

It's not clear cut to imply that all Republicans or all Demorcrats agree or condone certain issues.  

Not all Blacks love fried chicken and watermelon...  

Blessings divya.


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## Shimmie (Mar 9, 2009)

Just thinking....

*In what form, measure of humanity was Jesus first placed upon the earth?*

An embryo, placed inside of Mary, who was highly favored among all women.

*What was it about Mary, that allowed God to favor her above all other women?* 

He needed a womb He could trust to carry the life He placed within her.

*Why didn't God just place Jesus here as an adult human being; after all, God is God and can do anything He wants to do?*

To completely take on the human form of man, life is a process and different stages of growth and development.  God is the God of Completion; the Alpha and the Omega; the Beginning and the End.

*What are the components of an embryo?  Is it complete?*

Everything that pertains to human life and development. An embryo is most definitely human in completion for it's life to grow.

*So, does God love human embryos?  Are they important to Him?*

Indeed, God does love human embryos; He knew and witnessed each embryo when they were formed in the womb (and those outside, thereof);  He knew each name before the foundations of the earth.  And for the love of each, He sent His only begotten Son in the form of one.  Human embryos are very important to God, very important indeed.  

For when Jesus was hanging upon the cross, He would not come down until 'it' was finished.   'It' -- being the completion of redemption for all future human embryos, to follow His Death, Burial and Resurrection. 

*Why?*

They were all going to die anyway....why not?

To God be the Glory....


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## TrustMeLove (Mar 9, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> You're most welcome, TML,
> 
> Seek God's heart on this and hear Him on what you say is placed in you.  Otherwise you may not 'hear' Him when you need Him most.



I have  conferred with my God regarding my position on the issue. Ive actually been dealing with it since highschool coming from a science highg school and than getting a degree in Biochemistry. This is a highly discussed topic. I havent spoken about it in regards to political agenda.

And yes thisis placed in me to support. .I'm on the path that is set out for me...TRUST. And no need for the fear tactic. God has been speaking to me in mighty ways especially during this lent season...something powerful is definitely happening.  And yes I have the H.S. and yes my light is shinning. 
Something that those who oppose stem cell research are just going to have to accept.

Just like I accepted real born again believers voting for Bush twice. You might not get it...but its real. Please excuse the mistakes I'm writing on my phone. Sadly at choir rehearsal...its starting.


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## Shimmie (Mar 10, 2009)

Keenas said:


> Sorry I just woke up, so I apologize in advance if this doesn't make sense.
> 
> If I remember correctly at one point of time, scientists were looking to take cells from various parts of the body ie bones, blood, etc. and I guess clone or find a way to use those cells. I was fine with that, because no one was dying to retrieve those cells.
> 
> *With this bill, they are taking parts from embryos, which I believe is a individual person. Yes, I understand the argument that these embryos was going to be discarded. But if the scientists were going to use embryonic cells that were going to be disposed of; what will the scientists use once those embryonic cells are gone?*


 
Exactly!  What happens when they run out of human embryos?  In a heartbeat, they will create more, kill more human life. And this is so cryptic.  So hypocritical to create a human life than kill it, guised in the efforts to save other lives.   

That's why they call it science; it means without conscience.


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## Shimmie (Mar 10, 2009)

TrustMeLove said:


> I have conferred with my God regarding my position on the issue. Ive actually been dealing with it since highschool coming from a science highg school and than getting a degree in Biochemistry. This is a highly discussed topic. I havent spoken about it in regards to political agenda.
> 
> And yes thisis placed in me to support. .I'm on the path that is set out for me...TRUST. And no need for the fear tactic. God has been speaking to me in mighty ways especially during this lent season...something powerful is definitely happening. And yes I have the H.S. and yes my light is shinning.
> Something that those who oppose stem cell research are just going to have to accept.
> ...


 
No fear tactics were intended.  I apologize for offending you.  

I understand where you are coming from which is your science background, which preceeds what God's word tells us.  And I'm speaking of science which does such, not you personally.  

The Holy Spirit isn't in the abuse of human embryos.  God doesn't create life for the purpose of destroying it; not that of a baby.  For the same reason, God isn't for 'freedom' of abortion to whosoever will, at will, because it's a woman's choice at any given time, He's not in this.  Whatever a woman chooses / decides to do with her own body, is indeed her choice, but she cannot pull God into it.  He's not there.    The same is with the treatment of human embryos, created for death, God is not in it.    He's simply not.  

I wlll say this in love to anyone, Christian.  If this is your choice so be it, but don't say it's God's will.  It's in your spirit only because God has allowed you to have free will to choose it as such.   Not because He agrees with  it or placed it there.

It's time for all of us who call ourselves Christians, most definitely including me, among all, to stop lying on God, when we make controversal decisions.  We are all prone to self motivation, and will excuse the hell of what we want to do and then cover it up with lie that God put it there, when we know full well that He's no where in it.  No where.  

There is absolutely no support for this issue in God's word and neither by the presence of the Holy Spirit.   God does not confuse His order of life and it's process and purpose.   A human embryo was created and designed by God to grow within the mother's womb.  Not exploited as a non-entity, non human without life nor value.   

It's something totally different when a human embryo dies of natural causes; a miscarriage as such.   But there is absolutely nothing natural about the purpose/intent of what's being done to human embryos under the guise of medical research.   To create them and kill them, billions upon billions without end.   

And each is attached with a soul, for God says plainly, He knew them, before they and the entire earth were formed. 

I truly say this in love and not in disrespect of your free will.  Be blessed, TML.  I mean this with all of my heart.


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## momi (Mar 10, 2009)

This should not come as a surprise - the intent was made known during the election.

If embryonic stem cell research offers so much hope - let a public company invest the money.


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## divya (Mar 10, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> Not 'all' Republicans were for the war.  As there were and are still many, many Democrats who agreed with the war's purpose.   It's not that one-sided on either side of the parties.  I know many Democrats whom I disagreed with, who felt and still feel the war in Irag was necessary.
> 
> It's not clear cut to imply that all Republicans or all Demorcrats agree or condone certain issues.
> 
> ...



I'm speaking specifically about the Republicans who voted in Congress, thus the (save one) in parenthesis. Her friend was speaking about those *enacting policy in government, not everyday people.*  I should specify - in the Senate, only one Republican voted against the war and in the House only 6. So frankly, if her friend wants to speak about bills that do not reflect Christian principles, then that person needs to look again at Republicans. Neither party accomplishes that.


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## Nefertiti0906 (Mar 10, 2009)

My post is not welcomed here


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## divya (Mar 10, 2009)

I'm researching, but leaning on the side of supporting the research. My question is, aren't these embryos going to be destroyed? Not sure that I see the sense in simply destroying them when they could be used to understand certain diseases. I'll keep reading...


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## PaperClip (Mar 10, 2009)

Nefertiti0906 said:


> erplexed
> 
> My post was more of an apology and clarification to you, not a disclaimer.
> 
> ...


 
Separate from the core of the thread topic on stem cell research, I'm not disagreeing with you. I neither used nor implied the word "arrogant" is not in any post pertaining to you. I now acknowledge your apology and apologize for calling it a disclaimer. I do not apologize for pointing out the condescension in the statement that a lot of Christians don't research topics in forming opinions. How can a genuine dialogue take place if that assumption is in the atmosphere....

I am willing to move forward now that full disclosure has occured here.


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## Shimmie (Mar 10, 2009)

divya said:


> *I'm speaking specifically about the Republicans who voted in Congress, *
> 
> thus the (save one) in parenthesis. Her friend was speaking about those *enacting policy in government, not everyday people.* I should specify - in the Senate, only one Republican voted against the war and in the House only 6. So frankly, if her friend wants to speak about bills that do not reflect Christian principles, then that person needs to look again at Republicans. Neither party accomplishes that.


Thanks Divya.   I'm sorry that I misunderstood.   

And you are absolutely right about neither party reflecting Christian principles.    Hence God's admonishment to us, "Follow God, not man."


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## divya (Mar 10, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> Thanks Divya.   I'm sorry that I misunderstood.
> 
> And you are absolutely right about neither party reflecting Christian principles.    Hence God's admonishment to us, "Follow God, not man."



No problem.  I should have been more specific in my post too, so my apologies.

And I agree...we must follow God on these issues.  We cannot put faith in man.


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## Shimmie (Mar 10, 2009)

FoxyScholar said:


> Separate from the core of the thread topic on stem cell research, I'm not disagreeing with you. I neither used nor implied the word "arrogant" is not in any post pertaining to you. I now acknowledge your apology and apologize for calling it a disclaimer.
> 
> *I do not apologize for pointing out the condescension in the statement that a lot of Christians don't research topics in forming opinions. How can a genuine dialogue take place if that assumption is in the atmosphere....*
> 
> I am willing to move forward now that full disclosure has occured here.


 
@ the bolded.... 

I don't think Nefertitti meant any deliberate harm by the "Christian Ignorance Statement", but it is something that should not be taken lightly when applied; especially if one is a Christian applying it.    Christians are far more informed and educated than the devil can handle.   

That statement is used way too often and it's losing it's power.    

Christians are well aware of what's going on, the world just doesn't want us to take a stand against what affects us.    It doesn't take rocket science to know what God deems right and wrong.   As Christians we are to follow Him,  not the world's methods which always lead to death.


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## Nefertiti0906 (Mar 10, 2009)

FoxyScholar said:


> Separate from the core of the thread topic on stem cell research, I'm not disagreeing with you. I neither used nor implied the word "arrogant" is not in any post pertaining to you. I now acknowledge your apology and apologize for calling it a disclaimer. I do not apologize for pointing out the condescension in the statement that a lot of Christians don't research topics in forming opinions. How can a genuine dialogue take place if that assumption is in the atmosphere....
> 
> I am willing to move forward now that full disclosure has occured here.


 


Shimmie said:


> @ the bolded....
> 
> I don't think Nefertitti meant any deliberate harm by the "Christian Ignorance Statement", but it is something that should not be taken lightly when applied; especially if one is a Christian applying it. Christians are far more informed and educated than the devil can handle.
> 
> ...


 

erplexed


.


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## Renewed1 (Mar 10, 2009)

^^^Well said Shimmie.  

But the topic was the *CHRISTIAN *perspective on the matter.  What does the *BIBLE *say about this?  

Does this bill goes against God's principle about preserving life?

God created the female egg and the male sperm, to create HIS people.  Does this research destroy what God has intended to use to procreate the earth?

Is this another form of murder, just legalized?


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## Nefertiti0906 (Mar 10, 2009)

Keenas said:


> ^^^Well said Shimmie.
> 
> But the topic was the *CHRISTIAN *perspective on the matter. What does the *BIBLE *say about this?
> 
> ...


 
I consider myself Christian and that is a perspective that some Christians have.  

Where in the bible is it stated explicitly that God has a principle about preserving life? If so, why were some battles and deaths justified by God?

I believe the issue of life and death is more complicated than it is.  God is a complex being and with our human minds we are limited in understanding the ways and the intent of God.


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## divya (Mar 10, 2009)

Keenas said:


> ^^^Well said Shimmie.
> 
> But the topic was the *CHRISTIAN *perspective on the matter.  What does the *BIBLE *say about this?
> 
> ...



This is why I am leaning towards supporting this. If in fact, we are discussing the preservation of life then the issue should be with the In Vitro fertilization process. My understanding is that the embryos are coming from the extra embryos, rather than being created. So those extra embryos would are ultimately going to be destroyed anyway. Why not use them for research purposes?


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## divya (Mar 10, 2009)

Nefertiti0906 said:


> My post is not welcomed here



Please continue to post. I understand your point and agree. _Some_ of us as Christians are quick to dismiss something without really researching it and then looking to the Bible and asking the Holy Spirit for guidance. It's not just on this matter but on others too. We are certainly not infallible and really must call on God for direction in everything.


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## divya (Mar 10, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> I've pulled one of my posts from the thread in the Political forum:
> ___________
> 
> "They" are definitely pushing 'hyperbole' with this issue. They are playing on people's vunerabiities and desperations.
> ...



Honestly, I don't see it as a detachment, but rather, a reality.  That is what occurs with these embryos. So if the issue is with innocent babies being created, then people need to fight against In Vitro Fertilization or at least the current process. The concern seems misdirected, imo.  Honestly, I believe that it is the choice of the two individuals to use this method of pregnancy, although I may not agree with the process. However, if the embryos will be destroyed,  it does not seem any more problematic for them to be studied for purposes of preserving life in another manner.


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## Shimmie (Mar 10, 2009)

Keenas said:


> ^^^Well said Shimmie.
> 
> But the topic was the *CHRISTIAN *perspective on the matter. What does the *BIBLE *say about this?
> 
> ...


 
After reading this thread last night, I started to post a 'spin-off' entitled:

What is God's (the Biblical) Perspective on Human Embryo Stem Cell Research?

Many of the replies from Christians, go against God's will for this.  There's too much compromise which falls in line with the world's perspective, rather than God's.  

As a Christian, I personally know full well that God has a better way.   Stem cell research with human embryos, is not the end all for curing diseanses.    

As a Christian, My Personal  action would be instead, "Father, show me the better way; show me 'YOUR' way, not man's, but your way. '   As Daniel refused to eat of the King's dainties and sweet breads, I as a Christian choose not to take part in what gives man glory as opposed to giving glory unto God .

Human embryos were created by God for one purpose which is to live and grow inside of the mother's body.   God did not create them to be killed, however it is obvious that man has and has no conscience about it.    

For one to say, "they're going to die anyway", does not justify taking part in it.   It sounds like vulchers after the kill.  

As a Christian, why take part in something that we know is wrong; something God Himself would not do, nor order us to do.   What happens to our testimony?    Have Christians lost faith in God to the level of killing innocent souls?   And an embryo does have a soul, for God says He knew all of us by name before we were formed and before the earth was created.

Have Christians amputated their arms of faith which once stretched out to honor and worship Him for all that He is and all that He has faithfully promised?    Have they amputated their legs which once took pride to walk in His way and in His will?  

There is ...................... no failure in God.   As Christians, we always have Him to turn to for the right path to walk within.   With this topic, God has a better way and not the evil way of man.  

I say this in love for everyone.  I truly do.  

:thatsall:


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## Shimmie (Mar 10, 2009)

divya said:


> Honestly, I don't see it as a detachment, but rather, a reality. That is what occurs with these embryos. So if the issue is with innocent babies being created, then people need to fight against In Vitro Fertilization or at least the current process. The concern seems misdirected, imo. Honestly, I believe that it is the choice of the two individuals to use this method of pregnancy, although I may not agree with the process.
> 
> *However, if the embryos will be destroyed, it does not seem any more problematic for them to be studied for purposes of preserving life in another manner*.


   I'm making sure you know that I'm not sitting in judgment of anyone here.   I'm judging the issues and commenting on the mindset.

*Regarding the bolded:*   That places one in 'agreement' with the process.   And it also expands the continuation of it.   

As Christians, we have to be careful with what and whom we agree with.  Basically, God is the only one that we are supposed to be in agreement with ..................... Period.    

As a Christian we KNOW the God has a better plan.  Better options.   When God tells us to have nothing to do with the 'ways' of those who do not follow Him, He means it.     

It's not like we HAVE to take part in what the world chooses to handle things.   Who says the stem cell research is the end all cure?   I'd rather take my chances abstaining from being any part of this killing process and allow God to lead me in the paths of Righteousness for His namesake.   

As a Chrisitian, are we really that afraid to trust God to heal us beyond what any man can do?   Are we really that more confident in placing our lives in the hands of man, as opposed to God's hands, which have never failed us.    

If these scientists were seeking God for the answers, they would not be creating embryos just to kill them.    We all know that the Human Embryo Research is not going to stop with the Embryos created for Invitro purposes.   We know that!   It's going to be a mass market for eggs and sperm and then a massacre of death among them.


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## PaperClip (Mar 10, 2009)

Nefertiti0906 said:


> My post is not welcomed here


 
Nefertiti0906:

Your posts are welcome. You are welcome. You are accepted here. You belong here as a faithful member of the Body of our Lord Jesus Christ (and LHCF!) 

I refuse to allow the enemy any space to spin this out of control. He's a liar and there is NO TRUTH in him. NONE. Whatever the devil says, believe the POLAR OPPOSITE.

So I like a rigorous conversation on a variety of topics and we have had some rigorous conversations here in the Christian Forum. And the only way that true and sincere and open dialogue can continue here is if we remain honest with one another. I was honest about my discomfort about the one statement in your post. I spoke up about it and then I went on with my opinion about the subject matter. You apologized and I should have received it in the sincerity it was given but I WAS WRONG about that. Please forgive me. I repent before the Lord and the forum for my nasty act of pride and lack of mercy and grace.

This is a very informative thread about stem cell research from a Christian perspective. This gives us much to think about.


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## divya (Mar 10, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> I'm making sure you know that I'm not sitting in judgment of anyone here.   I'm judging the issues and commenting on the mindset.
> 
> *Regarding the bolded:*   That places one in 'agreement' with the process.   And it also expands the continuation of it.
> 
> ...



 Same here.

I agree with the bolded. However, we also must make sure that we are focusing on the proper issue. In your last paragraph, you stated that "If these scientists were seeking God for the answers, they would not be creating embryos just to kill them." Is this the case here? In my understanding, the current issue involves only using those embryos that will be destroyed regardless, in order to further research regarding diseases or more. 

If one would like to abstain from "any part of the killing process," *is one willing to actually tackle the sources of the embryos? The sources are not the scientists but men and women who would like to conceive.* The issue is very complicated. Imo, if one would like for the "killing process" to end, then it will actually entail an attempt to either change the In Vitro Fertilization process or even to abridge the rights of individuals from using their own eggs and sperm to have a child.  Doing the latter would then be going against God's grant of freedom of choice. 

Yes, the question is trusting God's healing hand. As a Christian, I personally trust Him. However, the additional question *is also whether or not one can accept that one simply cannot have a child and should thus adopt or do without children. Are people willing to give that message to others and force them to accept? * Because that's exactly where this leads.

However, your concern is certainly shared regarding how far this will go on the other end - creating embryos for the purpose of destruction. When that time comes, I am willing to stand against it. But I simply cannot argue to abridge the choices of simply due to my religious beliefs. God does not permit such actions.

ETA: This world is just so backwards. It's a shame that we even have to deal with issues such as this at all. I pray the day hastens when all of this madness will be over.


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## Shimmie (Mar 10, 2009)

Nefertiti0906 said:


> My post is not welcomed here


 I just saw this.  

  Stay.   I'm sorry if I have hurt you or anyone else here.  I truly mean this.   

So stay.


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## Shimmie (Mar 10, 2009)

divya said:


> I agree with the bolded. However, we also must make sure that we are focusing on the proper issue. In your last paragraph, you stated that "If these scientists were seeking God for the answers, they would not be creating embryos just to kill them." Is this the case here? In my understanding, the current issue involves only using those embryos that will be destroyed regardless, in order to further research regarding diseases or more.
> 
> If one would like to abstain from "any part of the killing process," *is one willing to actually tackle the sources of the embryos? The sources are not the scientists but men and women who would like to conceive.* The issue is very complicated. Imo, if one would like for the "killing process" to end, then it will actually entail an attempt to either change the In Vitro Fertilization process or even to abridge the rights of individuals from using their own eggs and sperm to have a child. Doing the latter would then be going against God's grant of freedom of choice.
> 
> ...


I respect your feelings... 

You're right about getting to the source of where the babies have been initiated, InVitro.     I don't have a right to tell a husband and wife that they cannot do this.   

But Divya, there has to be restraints and limits on how many embryos are created with the sole premise that innocent lives are being destroyed.   If it's more costly, than let that be the price to save an innocent life. 

It's a mess, but we don't have to add to it.   Do we really think that the research will stop there with the overflow of InVitro Embryos.  

This is so sad... so, so sad.   Especially to say, 'they're going to die anyway.'   Where's the heart?   

You know what?  There has always been a 'flying rumor' (per say), that there has always been a cure for cancer and other diseases, but the government has been holding out on it.  I never wanted to believe this, but sometimes I wonder.   

Again, I respect your feelings.      My strong feelings about this, are not about you.


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## Shimmie (Mar 10, 2009)

Nefertiti0906 said:


> I consider myself Christian and that is a perspective that some Christians have.
> 
> *Where in the bible is it stated explicitly that God has a principle about preserving life? If so, why were some battles and deaths justified by God?*
> 
> I believe the issue of life and death is more complicated than it is. God is a complex being and with our human minds we are limited in understanding the ways and the intent of God.


 
First of all this.....      I'm not attacking you with anything I share.  

Here's my perspective:

No one can ever understand the complexities of God......... and yet we do have an understanding of what's right and what's wrong.   

Neffertiti,  have you ever noticed how so many excuses have arised/arose/arizen lol  for things that are known to be wrong, yet so many excuses are made for them.   So much wrong is now being justified.    Sadly by many who proclaim themselves 'Christians.  

One of the main reasons, so much is messed up in this world is because 'we' in humanity become lax in our postitions; we actually fall asleep on the job (and the Bible speaks of this).   

Deep in your heart, God's answer is there.  _"Thou Shallt Not Kill",_   Neither are we to be a party to it; nor to an innocent life's destruction.  

I know the words are out there, screaming and arguing, what about those who are sick who will benefit from this?    Of course, but God always had a better way and still does.    Man just decided to do it their way instead.  

 Blessings.....


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## Theo (Mar 10, 2009)

Did any of you hear about the advances made a couple of years ago regarding stem cell research? 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090205133744.htm 

Scientists are now able to convert adult stem cells into embryonic-like stem cells, so it side steps the ethical issues regarding the debate. Seems like a wonderful advance as well as cheaper and more convenient for everyone involved.


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## Shimmie (Mar 10, 2009)

freelove said:


> Did any of you hear about the advances made a couple of years ago regarding stem cell research?
> 
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090205133744.htm
> 
> Scientists are now able to convert adult stem cells into embryonic-like stem cells, so it side steps the ethical issues regarding the debate. Seems like a wonderful advance as well as cheaper and more convenient for everyone involved.


  Thank you Freelove.  

My daughter and I have been sharing this information for a while.  Your article adds to it.   

Now may I have your permission to have a 'Shimmie' moment?

Here goes:

_"They coulda' done this in the first place...."_ 

Okay, vent is over....  

Thanks again.   God bless you.


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## Renewed1 (Mar 11, 2009)

^^^I second that!!!


Ladies, thank you for keeping this respectful.


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## divya (Mar 12, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> I respect your feelings...
> 
> You're right about getting to the source of where the babies have been initiated, InVitro.     I don't have a right to tell a husband and wife that they cannot do this.
> 
> ...



I respect your feelings as well. It is a difficult topic. I agree with you that there should be limits. It's just that the limits will have to be for the hopeful parents, in order to stop the _killing_ process. However, we cannot abridge their rights. So where does that leave us?  Currently, the choice is between letting the unused embryos be destroyed/rot to death _or_ to allow scientists to study them (which ends their life).  

My heart is certainly here but I must be realistic. I just cannot see the sense in arguing to let the embryos rot to death as medical/hazardous waste, as opposed to allowing them to be studied in order to preserve lives in another manner.

It's tough. No, I don't believe that scientists will want to stop there when the embryos are gone. That battle we have to be fought. And yes, there are cures to a number of diseases. Much of the reason why many of us are sick is due to our eating habits and stress levels. The poison that is put in our system daily through many approved medicines or even foods in the supermarket do us more harm than good. But that's another story...


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## Shimmie (Mar 12, 2009)

divya said:


> I respect your feelings as well. It is a difficult topic. I agree with you that there should be limits. It's just that the limits will have to be for the hopeful parents, in order to stop the _killing_ process. However, we cannot abridge their rights. So where does that leave us? Currently, the choice is between letting the unused embryos be destroyed/rot to death _or_ to allow scientists to study them (which ends their life).
> 
> My heart is certainly here but I must be realistic. I just cannot see the sense in arguing to let the embryos rot to death as medical/hazardous waste, as opposed to allowing them to be studied in order to preserve lives in another manner.
> 
> It's tough. No, I don't believe that scientists will want to stop there when the embryos are gone. That battle we have to be fought. And yes, there are cures to a number of diseases. Much of the reason why many of us are sick is due to our eating habits and stress levels. The poison that is put in our system daily through many approved medicines or even foods in the supermarket do us more harm than good. But that's another story...


   Amen to your entire post Divya.   Whether I agree or disagree with the method, it doesn't blind me to what you are sharing from your heart.    

I know this may 'seem' like a contradiction, but I understand where your heart is.    It's the topic and the method where I take issue with.   

Hope that makes sense.   

Chile don't get me started on the supermarkets....  

This is why I eat 'Green' (fruits/veggies) as much as I can.   Processed foods I eat as little as possible.   

I find it so 'crazy' that it's cheaper and more convenient to eat unhealthy foods, then it is to eat healthy natural wholesome foods.   Go figure 

Blessings.... Also I want to thank you and the rest of the ladies for helping me stay aware of everyone's feelings.    Whether I agree with a topic or not, I don't want my passion for or against it to be hurtful to others when I 'venting' about it.   

 I am truly sorry to everyone that I have hurt and/or offended.    I'm learning.   Each of you are worth it.


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## divya (Mar 12, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> Amen to your entire post Divya.   Whether I agree or disagree with the method, it doesn't blind me to what you are sharing from your heart.
> 
> I know this may 'seem' like a contradiction, but I understand where your heart is.    It's the topic and the method where I take issue with.
> 
> ...



Completely understand. Our world is just such in a terrible state.  The types of things we face are really horrible and saddening. All we can do is do our very best.  Let's just pray for Christ's soon coming, so that we don't have to deal with this stuff anymore.  What a day that will be! 

BTW: Shimmie, you are such a sweetheart girl!  I truly appreciate your humble spirit on this board.


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## Browndilocks (Mar 12, 2009)

Sigh.  I'm feel like I'm going to die (but that's another story). 


Regarding the issue on stem cells, I'm a little torn myself. I work at a place that currently uses stem cell research for some of its findings and I've actually seen some of the benefits of the research.  Not to get too far into it; but I work in hearing research.  Scientists here develop cochlear implants for those who have lost their hearing.  The way a person hears is through the transmission of vibrations on hair cells that are in our inner ear. When those hair cells are damaged or destroyed, hearing loss occurs.  Among other things, they use stem cell research to find a way to develop new hair growth cells within in the cochlea so that a person's hearing can be restored.  When I see little kids coming in here to get cochlear implant surgery and knowing what that horrid process entails, I do wish that the stem cell developments hurry along.   

Yet I am fully aware of the contradictions surrounding God's word.  My grandmother is totally against it and I wont argue with her. There are so many ways to get stem cells other than coming from embryos though.  Regardless of how I personally feel about abortion, I think its here to stay.  So now what? Do we continue to protest or do we accept what is out there and make the best of the situation?  I really dont know.


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## Shimmie (Mar 12, 2009)

divya said:


> Completely understand. Our world is just such in a terrible state. The types of things we face are really horrible and saddening. All we can do is do our very best. Let's just pray for Christ's soon coming, so that we don't have to deal with this stuff anymore. What a day that will be!
> 
> BTW: Shimmie, you are such a sweetheart girl!  I truly appreciate your humble spirit on this board.


  You too Precious Lady.    

Thanks for putting up with me.  I'm still learning.


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## Shimmie (Mar 12, 2009)

Browndilocks said:


> Sigh. I'm feel like I'm going to die (but that's another story).
> 
> 
> Regarding the issue on stem cells, I'm a little torn myself. I work at a place that currently uses stem cell research for some of its findings and I've actually seen some of the benefits of the research. Not to get too far into it; but I work in hearing research. Scientists here develop cochlear implants for those who have lost their hearing. The way a person hears is through the transmission of vibrations on hair cells that are in our inner ear. When those hair cells are damaged or destroyed, hearing loss occurs. Among other things, they use stem cell research to find a way to develop new hair growth cells within in the cochlea so that a person's hearing can be restored. When I see little kids coming in here to get cochlear implant surgery and knowing what that horrid process entails, I do wish that the stem cell developments hurry along.
> ...


First of all......... We're not going to let you die... 

As for what we do?    This is why God admonished us, "Do Not Conform to this World."    God knows the heart of men and how there is no restraint to what men will to for whatever reasons.   There are so many paths that look right to men which seem justified and/or logical.   But God still says, do not conform.    

Thank God for His word and for the Holy Spirit to strengthen us when we are weak or our compassion blinds us from the will of God.   We're human, and we susceptable.   However, there's still God's way to handle things and this is why He says to seek Him, not man.    And He never fails us.  

If these scientists had sought the Lord, they would have not had such controvesy in the first place.   It's just that simple.  

Love to you and again.... we're not going to let you die.   You are a diamond among us and we need your brilliance to lead the way.  

ETA:   See, I almost Jumped for that new Hair Follicle method.


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