# Non-Mainstream Christianity



## divya (Nov 10, 2009)

This is an informational thread for those who may like to voice their beliefs and views, which are not typical of the mainstream. Here are a few and feel free to add more:

*1.* Salvation is a gift, than can be accepted or rejected at any point in life. Therefore, one is not _once saved always saved._ John 3:16.

*2.* _Hell _translates to _the grave_ in most cases in the Hebrew and Greek. It is not a place that exists in the present, nor where people burn endlessly. The lake of fire will be created in the end and will burn out leaving nothing. Ecclesiastes 9; Revelation 20; Malachi 4:1.

*3.* The Ten Commandments are for us to follow today - all of them _as stated_ in Exodus. Matthew 5:17-18

*4.* The Biblical health laws are relevant for us to day and not nailed to the cross as the ordinances (sacrificial and ceremonial law). Leviticus 11; Deuteronomy 14; Colossians 2;

*5.* Not only those who profess Christianity will be in heaven. Romans 2

I hope this is helpful so that people can gain more exposure to the differing views within Christianity, if necessary, and so that people may ask rather than assume what others believe. Additionally, may all of us be encouraged to keep the faith!


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## divya (Nov 11, 2009)

*6.* Christmas and Easter are not Christian holidays, at least in origin. 

*7.* When you die, you don't go straight to heaven.  Righteous dead wait until the Second Coming of Christ, and the wicked until after the 1000 years. 1 Thess 4:16-17; Rev. 20.


*ETA:* Initially, this list was going to include everything added in the thread. However, seem like we are sharing our convictions. So I'll do a few alterations of this and let this reflect a few of mine.


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## blazingthru (Nov 12, 2009)

Revelation 12:17 (New American Standard Bible)

 17So the dragon was *enraged* with the woman, and went off to (A)make war with the rest of her (B)children, who (C)keep the commandments of God and (D)hold to the testimony of Jesus. 

Where does it say only 9 commandments?
Devil is coming after those who keep the commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.


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## azuquita_morena (Nov 12, 2009)

I'm very glad you posted this! I grew up in a household where our beliefs where the ones you listed. It was (and still is) rough, because I never attended an actual church, but rather did bible study at home (taught by my mom). Since childhood, I always felt I had to explain myself when it came to these issues (such as not celebrating Christmas/Easter, my beliefs about heaven/hell, dietary laws, and etc.), because people want to take away "Christian card" so to speak. 





divya said:


> This is an informational thread for those who may like to voice their beliefs and views, which are not typical of the mainstream. Here are a few and feel free to add more:
> 
> *1.* Salvation is a gift, than can be accepted or rejected at any point in life. Therefore, one is not _once saved always saved._ John 3:16.
> 
> ...





divya said:


> *6.* Christmas and Easter are not Christian holidays, at least in origin.
> 
> *7.* When you die, you don't go straight to heaven.  Righteous dead wait until the Second Coming of Christ, and the wicked until after the 1000 years. 1 Thess 4:16-17; Rev. 20.
> 
> *8.* The feast days should be kept.


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## rafikichick92 (Nov 12, 2009)

Here's another: Christians in the end times will not avoid the tribulation via the rapture, but will be raptired at the end of the 7 years.


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## Mamita (Nov 12, 2009)

thank you

In Holiness also its pretty tough to communicate with other christians about certain things

one exemple salvation, by just saying with your mouth that JC is your savior was intended for jews that had a zeal for God not gentiles who didnt even know the one true God, same thing today, we're Gentiles, so it takes much more

other exemples including but not limited to (lol) skirts for women, long hair for women, no make up, no divorce, no abortion, natural medication, tongue speaking for the Holy Ghost, if tongue speaking but lifestyle is not holy after some time then it can be a bad spirit, no smoking , no drinking, no secular music, no club, no bar, no evolution, no pseudo christian holidays, not everything good that happens to you is from God, mercy is not blessings, not everybody that profess christianity are/will be saved (1st John 2:4-6, Luke 6:46, Matthew 7:21-23)

anyway thank you for that


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## Sharpened (Nov 12, 2009)

And yet another: The title_ reverend_ is not found in the bible and the word is only found once in the KJV (Psalm 111:9).

I am a person who is obsessed with finding the truth because, ultimately, I am responsible for my relationship with Our Father. If that means going against what everyone else is doing, then so be it.


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## divya (Nov 12, 2009)

puro_tumbao said:


> I'm very glad you posted this! I grew up in a household where our beliefs where the ones you listed. It was (and still is) rough, because I never attended an actual church, but rather did bible study at home (taught by my mom). Since childhood, I always felt I had to explain myself when it came to these issues (such as not celebrating Christmas/Easter, my beliefs about heaven/hell, dietary laws, and etc.), because people want to take away "Christian card" so to speak.



So true. It really can be difficult. What is perceived to be Christian often centers around certain beliefs held by the majority, so when you don't hold them many people inquire _how_ you can be a Christian?  Then at times the _cult_ accusations get thrown around. Still it is our responsibility to be loving in our responses. It presents often presents an opportunity to share our beliefs with those around us. So may we be encouraged to keep the faith! 

We may not agree on everything, but that we strive to live by the light that God gives us is what is required!


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## divya (Nov 12, 2009)

Nymphe said:


> And yet another: The title_ reverend_ is not found in the bible and the word is only found once in the KJV (Psalm 111:9).
> 
> *I am a person who is obsessed with finding the truth because, ultimately, I am responsible for my relationship with Our Father. If that means going against what everyone else is doing, then so be it.*



Interesting point. Wonder how that came into usage in some branches of Christianity and why?

@ the bold. That's the way it should be.


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## Crown (Nov 12, 2009)

Nymphe said:


> *I am a person who is obsessed with finding the truth because, ultimately, I am responsible for my relationship with Our Father. If that means going against what everyone else is doing, then so be it.*



I can identify myself to this. Maybe not obsessed, but diligent.


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## Laela (Nov 12, 2009)

Diligent...persistent.... ITA!




Crown said:


> I can identify myself to this. Maybe not obsessed, but diligent.


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## Sharpened (Nov 12, 2009)

divya said:


> Interesting point. Wonder how that came into usage in some branches of Christianity and why?


Surprisingly, Wikipedia gives a great definition.


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## Mamita (Nov 12, 2009)

i was told in another thread about the fact that i dont wear makeup is like i get so CAUGHT UP in LOOKING LIKE a chrisitan, BEING a christian is lost (pretty offensive)

its so odd to me because come on, its not a new concept, everyone has heard at least OF it, it was the norm a couple of generations back, you can say its old school even. 

I mean makeup used to be only for streetwalkers and entertainers a few decades ago

but a lot of what was the norm before is negative to the mainstream christian today, so much has been popularized

and i know im not alone, and i read some posts by 16 17 year olds thinking the same things about certain topics considred old school on other sites

its so weird to me

i wish i was born decades earlier lol


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## divya (Nov 12, 2009)

Mamita said:


> *i was told in another thread about the fact that i dont wear makeup is like i get so CAUGHT UP in LOOKING LIKE a chrisitan, BEING a christian is lost (pretty offensive)
> *
> its so odd to me because come on, its not a new concept, everyone has heard at least OF it, it was the norm a couple of generations back, you can say its old school even.
> 
> ...




[email protected] the bold. The counsel to be modest and simple is right there in the Scriptures. If you are convicted not to wear makeup, that's a good thing, imo. I also agree with you about what has become popularized in Christianity.


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## Laela (Nov 12, 2009)

You know, we had an interesting thread on Halloween... I was thinking about posting something on Christmas earlier and I think I'll post it here instead, if you don't mind. I'll look for it later and post it.... 

oh, and here's an interesting link.  {I'll be a "heathen, confused or double-minded" for posting this, but who cares?    God is good...

http://www.therefinersfire.org/challenging_christianity.htm

Thank you for the thread...I love a good challenge.


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## divya (Nov 12, 2009)

Laela said:


> You know, we had an interesting thread on Halloween... I was thinking about posting something on Christmas earlier and I think I'll post it here instead, if you don't mind. I'll look for it later and post it....



Please do. It's important that we are aware of the origins of these holidays, so that we can make informed decisions about how to approach them.


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## Mamita (Nov 12, 2009)

divya said:


> Please do. It's important that we are aware of the *origins *of these holidays, so that we can make informed decisions about how to approach them.



O-RI-GINS exactly !

thats what we should be always looking at, the devil is such a liar, evolving with our time is not what its about

specially if the Word is sealed in Heaven, it aint evolving lol people are the only ones evolving towards something worse than it used to be lol


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## dicapr (Nov 12, 2009)

I believe that we are all going to be surprised by just how many things we got wrong when we get to heaven.  I don't believe that anyone denomination has the "truth"-I believe we are all wrong on something.


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## Laela (Nov 12, 2009)

Here's the link:

http://www.blowthetrumpet.org/TheGreatDeceptionVideo.htm

I saw this vid at my sister-in-law's church when we visited her church one Christmas.


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## MissMeWithThatIsh (Nov 12, 2009)

Divya, 

I appreciate this thread. Tis all


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## divya (Nov 12, 2009)

Laela said:


> Here's the link:
> 
> http://www.blowthetrumpet.org/TheGreatDeceptionVideo.htm
> 
> I saw this vid at my sister-in-law's church when we visited her church one Christmas.



Tell the truth! Taking the minds and hearts of the young (and old) away from Jesus Christ!  

Thank you for sharing! This is should have its own thread, the closer we get to Christmas day!


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## Mamita (Nov 13, 2009)

omg i had chills the whole time during this vid !!!


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## Pooks (Nov 13, 2009)

Great thread OP  I agree with much that has been posted.


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## Crown (Nov 13, 2009)

Laela said:


> Diligent...persistent.... ITA!



Persistent has a light negative connotation in French.
Let’s say diligent and persevering.

  And I love this verse :
  Act. 17.11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

  I don’t want fables or human doctrines established in x years and based on a partial view of the Bible.

  With the Holy Spirit of God and the actual technology (internet and biblical search engine), our generation has no excuse.
  Dan. 12.9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.


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## Mamita (Nov 13, 2009)

Crown said:


> Persistent has a light negative connotation in *French*.
> Let’s say diligent and persevering.



In French? who's french? you're French? waaa trop fort salut !!! 

ha *feels less lonely suddenly*


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## Crown (Nov 13, 2009)

> O-RI-GINS exactly !
> 
> thats what we should be always looking at, the devil is such a liar, evolving with our time is not what its about
> 
> specially if the Word is sealed in Heaven, it aint evolving lol people are the only ones evolving towards something worse than it used to be lol


 I don't consider myself as modern, I am a new creature with the old and real christian values.
It's time to make an evaluation and come back to the origins, the Bible, the teaching of Paul : the outside reflects the inside. But, I am not for the legalism : the outside with an empty inside.
 
I don’t have worldly holidays. My holidays are each day with Jesus-Christ and I gather one or more days a week with other believers (assembly).

 If I understand, only one feast will remain :
 Zac. 14.16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep *the feast of tabernacles*.


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## Crown (Nov 13, 2009)

Mamita said:


> In French? who's french? you're French? waaa trop fort salut !!!
> 
> ha *feels less lonely suddenly*



Bonjour Mamita!
Not from France. French speaker.
Que Dieu te bénisse, gardons la foi et persévérons !


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## Crown (Nov 13, 2009)

divya said:


> Tell the truth! Taking the minds and hearts of the young (and old) away from Jesus Christ!
> 
> Thank you for sharing! This is should have its own thread, the closer we get to Christmas day!



I agree !
This should have its own thread, Laela. Christmas day is coming.


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## dicapr (Nov 13, 2009)

Crown said:


> I don't consider myself as modern, I am a new creature with the old and real christian values.
> It's time to make an evaluation and come back to the origins, the Bible, *the teaching of Paul : the outside reflects the inside.* But, I am not for the legalism : the outside with an empty inside.
> 
> I don’t have worldly holidays. My holidays are each day with Jesus-Christ and I gather one or more days a week with other believers (assembly).
> ...


 
AT the bolded part, I struggle with that so much.  I grew up SDA and still am SDA.  Some of those who hurt me the most in my life had the right outside but nothing on the inside.  By right outside SDA believe that christians are best represented with no adornemnt and simplicity in dress-no makeup, jewelry, no flashy fashions, ect. (Some even think flashy hair adorments is a no no.) Those who inspired me the most had the "wrong" outside but the spirit of God was so bright in their actions and life that their outside didn't matter because all you saw once you met them was God.  I truly believe that a right inside will outshine anything on the outside, contrary to what alot of Christians believe.  I believe that God's love changes us from the inside out, but there is no one "look" that defines what a christian should look like.


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## Mamita (Nov 13, 2009)

Crown said:


> I don't consider myself as modern, I am a new creature with the old and real christian values.
> It's time to make an evaluation and come back to the origins, the Bible, the teaching of Paul : the outside reflects the inside. But, I am not for the legalism : the outside with an empty inside.
> 
> I don’t have worldly holidays. My holidays are each day with Jesus-Christ and I gather one or more days a week with other believers (assembly).
> ...




about holidays yeah i agree, how we see it is that, Jesus Christ said "and do this in rememberance of me" only ONCE, and he was talking about communion. not easter, not xmas, not nothing
people love putting Jesus everywhere and see nothing wrong with putting 2 opposited together

@ Dicapr i'll have to disagree, you're talking about "outshining" but God's power IS strong enough to CHANGE the outside, our whole CONVERSATION (lifestyle) changes to be like Christ's. Christ came as an exemple to follow among other things, and he was the humblest, and said for us to be separate from the world

take 2 women, one of them christian, but both of them wear makeup jewelry, tight pants, flashy hairdos, flashy fashion... how you gonna tell the christian from the other on sight? you're supposed to be able to do that... on sight, so that someone that wants to follow Christ can recognize you right away and ask you questions.
You wont spark any interest in the Lord if you look like any ole unsaved person out there. 
see what i did there? spark... light... no? lol be a light in the world? lol 
ok ok lame lol


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## dicapr (Nov 13, 2009)

Mamita, I agree that God is able to change the outside.  However, the outside doesn't always reflect the inside.  Think of Samuel when God sent him to annoint David.  Samuel was guilty of judging who would be the next king based solely on the appearence of Jessie's sons.  David did not look like king material, but he had a heart for the Lord.  Look at Rahab the harlot.  You can best believe that she was dressed according to her profession.  However, she knew that Isreal was God's chosen people and had the heart to help.  The bible is full of examples of those who were rightous even though the did not fit the current definition of what a rightous person should look like.  The inside matters more than the outside ever will.  The Pharasees (sp?) looked rightous in every way but their heart was far from the Lord.  We do not always know where someone used to be, we cannot always judge if there has been a change or an improvement.  It's kind of like someone being 100 lbs over weight.  You may think that individual needs someone to talk to them about health living and exercise.  What you may not know it that they just lost 50 lbs.  That is why we need to ask the Lord to help us see the inner person while he is changing the outside.

I am actually a very modest individual by nature.  I have always been that way. I believe that God wants us to be modest according to the standards of the day we live in.  People make snap judgements about who someone is depending on their appearance.  However there are many who use the outside to promote false advertising.


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## Mamita (Nov 13, 2009)

oh i agree, i always give time for change to appear before thinking anything, I was like that myself not too long ago.

i was talking about the ones professing being already there


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## divya (Nov 13, 2009)

Crown said:


> I don't consider myself as modern,* I am a new creature with the old and real christian values.*
> It's time to make an evaluation and come back to the origins, the Bible, the teaching of Paul : the outside reflects the inside. But, I am not for the legalism : the outside with an empty inside.
> 
> I don’t have worldly holidays. My holidays are each day with Jesus-Christ and I gather one or more days a week with other believers (assembly).
> ...



I love that...and everything else you have said.  

The feasts are something that I would like to study more deeply. I have heard that the feast of the tabernacles remains, but I've always thought that to have heavenly significance - when we get there.  Open to any light you can shed on the issue...


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## Laela (Nov 13, 2009)

Yeah..I'd thought of doing that, too..but your thread came up and it was timely.

It's all about knowledge... educating ourselves as Christians on _why _we do what we do... not condemnation. Some people get that  




divya said:


> Tell the truth! Taking the minds and hearts of the young (and old) away from Jesus Christ!
> 
> Thank you for sharing! This is should have its own thread, the closer we get to Christmas day!


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## Laela (Nov 13, 2009)

Oh, I didn't know that. Funny, I understand French patois, but it may not have that connotation in our "version" 

So thanks for the clarification on that... 


Crown said:


> *Persistent has a light negative connotation in French.
> Let’s say diligent and persevering.*
> 
> And I love this verse :
> ...


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## Poohbear (Nov 13, 2009)

Mamita said:


> not everybody that profess christianity are/will be saved (1st John 2:4-6, Luke 6:46, Matthew 7:21-23)


These are some powerful scriptures.

I just wonder how forgiveness of sins/wrongdoings can be aligned with these scriptures as well as God's judgement of our hearts, sincerity, and remorse. What I mean by that is this... all Christians sin and fall short of God's glory. All Christians don't do every single thing God commands us to do. So does that mean we aren't really Christians and we are deemed as evildoers?  Or are these scriptures above talking about those people who claim to be Christians but have evil hearts and don't have any remorse or feel sorry for their sins?


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## divya (Nov 13, 2009)

dicapr said:


> AT the bolded part, I struggle with that so much.  I grew up SDA and still am SDA.  Some of those who hurt me the most in my life had the right outside but nothing on the inside.  By right outside SDA believe that christians are best represented with no adornemnt and simplicity in dress-no makeup, jewelry, no flashy fashions, ect. (Some even think flashy hair adorments is a no no.) Those who inspired me the most had the "wrong" outside but the spirit of God was so bright in their actions and life that their outside didn't matter because all you saw once you met them was God.  I truly believe that a right inside will outshine anything on the outside, contrary to what alot of Christians believe.  I believe that *God's love changes us from the inside out*, but there is no one "look" that defines what a christian should look like.



Yes!  I'm all for the simplicity, but it is meaningless when we don't know how to treat other people. You hit the nail on the head with the bold - God's love changes us from the inside out. As an SDA, sometimes I feel some of the older/more traditional people can be harsh about appearances, especially adornment. But I do wonder if they understand the bold? While I definitely understand the importance of simplicity and modesty etc., it often best to pray for individuals and *be an example. *

It's funny. At one point, I had started to wear earrings. I'm a girly girl, so I just love those kinds of things. The vast majority of people didn't even say anything about it. My church isn't like that. But you know when I stopped? I went to the DMV to do something with my car, and I saw a family. Simple, beautiful people. No makeup, no jewelry, nothing flashy. They way they talked to their children was exemplary. So I felt compelled to ask? Are you Christians? Are you SDAs? Yes to both. Right then - it all made sense to me. And that was enough for me to leave it all alone. As Christians, some of us forget how far our examples can go. No need to be rude or mean about things...just live it.


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## Mamita (Nov 13, 2009)

oh yeah can someone talk more about that feast of tabernacles? 

summarily, if anyone minds.?


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## Mamita (Nov 13, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> These are some powerful scriptures.
> 
> I just wonder how forgiveness of sins/wrongdoings can be aligned with these scriptures as well as God's judgement of our hearts, sincerity, and remorse. What I mean by that is this... all Christians sin and fall short of God's glory. All Christians don't do every single thing God commands us to do. So does that mean we aren't really Christians and we are deemed as evildoers?  Or are these scriptures above talking about those people who claim to be Christians but have evil hearts and don't have any remorse or feel sorry for their sins?



no i think these verses talk more about self righteous people, see something written, will twist it in front of your eyes, and say that's what I'm doing, instead of doing what's written, cause it just bothers them to do it all

also we do believe that when you have the Holy Ghost indwelling, its a weapon against sin, so sin is reduced to near 0 compared to before. God doesnt dwell in a dirty temple, we practically wont sin, it IS possible
We dont believe in we'll always sin anyway and will never be perfect cause that's not promoting change. yes we'll never be perfect, but with God inside we'll be as good as, in HIS eyes, near perfect, living HOLY


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## dicapr (Nov 13, 2009)

divya said:


> Yes!  I'm all for the simplicity, but it is meaningless when we don't know how to treat other people. You hit the nail on the head with the bold - God's love changes us from the inside out. As an SDA, sometimes I feel some of the older/more traditional people can be harsh about appearances, especially adornment. But I do wonder if they understand the bold? While I definitely understand the importance of simplicity and modesty etc., it often best to pray for individuals and *be an example. *
> 
> It's funny. At one point, I had started to wear earrings. I'm a girly girl, so I just love those kinds of things. The vast majority of people didn't even say anything about it. My church isn't like that. But you know when I stopped? I went to the DMV to do something with my car, and I saw a family. Simple, beautiful people. No makeup, no jewelry, nothing flashy. They way they talked to their children was exemplary. So I felt compelled to ask? Are you Christians? Are you SDAs? Yes to both. Right then - it all made sense to me. And that was enough for me to leave it all alone. As Christians, some of us forget how far our examples can go. No need to be rude or mean about things...just live it.


 

What a beautiful story.  I first took out my earrings when I held my niece.  My thought was that that precious child would never reach for me and I would move away because I was afraid that she would tear the earrings out of my ears.  Something as simple as that.  However, the earrings are back-I hate the way my holes are closing and leaving a black mark on my ears.  I scrubbed my ears thinking I had some type of fungus only to realize that I had the type of skin when the holes closed it leaves them severly discolored.  Now I wear small simple studs. I want to continue to make sure that my appearance is modest.


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## Poohbear (Nov 13, 2009)

Mamita said:


> no i think these verses talk more about self righteous people, see something written, will twist it in front of your eyes, and say that's what I'm doing, instead of doing what's written, cause it just bothers them to do it all
> 
> also we do believe that when you have the Holy Ghost indwelling, its a weapon against sin, so sin is reduced to near 0 compared to before. God doesnt dwell in a dirty temple, we practically wont sin, it IS possible
> We dont believe in we'll always sin anyway and will never be perfect cause that's not promoting change. yes we'll never be perfect, but with God inside we'll be as good as, in HIS eyes, near perfect, living HOLY


 Thanks for your response! Makes perfect sense.

And it's sad that there are a lot of self-proclaiming Christians who have that attitude of "We'll always sin anyway and will never be perfect", but the Bible even speaks against that type of thinking in Romans 6.


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## dicapr (Nov 13, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> These are some powerful scriptures.
> 
> I just wonder how forgiveness of sins/wrongdoings can be aligned with these scriptures as well as God's judgement of our hearts, sincerity, and remorse. What I mean by that is this... all Christians sin and fall short of God's glory. All Christians don't do every single thing God commands us to do. So does that mean we aren't really Christians and we are deemed as evildoers? Or are these scriptures above talking about those people who claim to be Christians but have evil hearts and don't have any remorse or feel sorry for their sins?


 

We had a great bible story on this.  We learned that as Christians we are not to willfully commit sin. However, there are times we commit sin in ignorance.  God does not attribute those sins to us.  However, when they are revealed to us we are to repent.  The book of Leviticus outlines that God places sin in 2 categories.  There are the sins that we commit with full knowledge that we are transgressing the will of God.  Those are the dangerous sins that will cost us our salvation.  There are the sins we commit through ignorance.  God understands and takes our ignorance into account.  However when we are made aware of our sins we must repent and we are then held accountable for commiting those sins.


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## Mamita (Nov 13, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> Thanks for your response! Makes perfect sense.
> 
> And it's sad that there are a lot of self-proclaiming Christians who have that attitude of "We'll always sin anyway and will never be perfect", but the Bible even speaks against that type of thinking in Romans 6.



and that's what i was looking for romans 6 thank you lool

very nice chapter, makes so much sense with baptism 

aaah thank you Lord for your plan  of Salvation even if we dont deserve it


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## Poohbear (Nov 13, 2009)

dicapr said:


> We had a great bible story on this. We learned that as Christians we are not to willfully commit sin. However, there are times we commit sin in ignorance. God does not attribute those sins to us. However, when they are revealed to us we are to repent. The book of Leviticus outlines that God places sin in 2 categories. There are the sins that we commit with full knowledge that we are transgressing the will of God. Those are the dangerous sins that will cost us our salvation. There are the sins we commit through ignorance. God understands and takes our ignorance into account. *However when we are made aware of our sins we must repent and we are then held accountable for commiting those sins.*


 
Thank you for your response. Here's another question that arised from the bolded statement above. I have heard this "being held accountable for sins" several times. I just wonder will we still be held accountable for sins that are forgiven by God? If so, then is God's forgiveness really true for those who really have a remorseful heart for their sins (even if those sins are committed with full knowledge that they are wrong)? _Hope that makes sense. _


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## Laela (Nov 13, 2009)

You now, my sis-in-law is SDA... I'm non-denominational but my pastor holds services on Saturday and Sunday. We all have our beliefs and personal convictions, yet we all serve the same God. How 'bout that? lol

But I agree with these sentiments.

Trying to control other people, what they say, how they say it, isn't something God would approve of in the behavior of his Children.  The power of persuasion of his Word will come from Him, not Us. Otherwise, where is our Faith/confidence in his Word?

Still we are commanded to Love one another. To not do so is also disobedience...





divya said:


> Yes!  I'm all for the simplicity, but it is meaningless when we don't know how to treat other people. You hit the nail on the head with the bold - God's love changes us from the inside out. As an SDA, sometimes *I feel some of the older/more traditional people can be harsh about appearances*, especially adornment. But I do wonder if they understand the bold? While I definitely understand the importance of simplicity and modesty etc., it often best to pray for individuals and *be an example. *
> 
> It's funny. At one point, I had started to wear earrings. I'm a girly girl, so I just love those kinds of things. The vast majority of people didn't even say anything about it. My church isn't like that. But you know when I stopped? I went to the DMV to do something with my car, and I saw a family. Simple, beautiful people. No makeup, no jewelry, nothing flashy. They way they talked to their children was exemplary. So I felt compelled to ask? Are you Christians? Are you SDAs? Yes to both. Right then - it all made sense to me. And that was enough for me to leave it all alone. As Christians, some of us forget how far our examples can go. No need to be rude or mean about things...just live it.


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## Mamita (Nov 13, 2009)

dicapr i was just gonna add that, in case it happens we repent 

simple


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## dicapr (Nov 13, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> Thank you for your response. Here's another question that arised from the bolded statement above. I have heard this "being held accountable for sins" several times. I just wonder will we still be held accountable for sins that are forgiven by God? If so, then is God's forgiveness really true for those who really have a remorseful heart for their sins (even if those sins are committed with full knowledge that they are wrong)? _Hope that makes sense. _


 

Held accountable means that we need to ask for forgiveness of God to have the sin removed from us.  When we don't know about a sin, God overlooks it and does not attribute it to us.


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## Poohbear (Nov 13, 2009)

dicapr said:


> Held accountable means that we need to ask for forgiveness of God to have the sin removed from us. When we don't know about a sin, God overlooks it and does not attribute it to us.


 OHHH okay! Every time I heard "held accountable for sins", I always thought it meant we will be judged for our sins in front of God before entering Heaven. Thank you! Now I feel relieved and have more clarity.


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## Mamita (Nov 13, 2009)

discard you said it

I'll just add though that usually we regularly ask God to let us know if we have sinned unwillingly

like that song "search me Lord"

so normally eventually you will know what u've done, so that you can repent and not do it again


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## Laela (Nov 13, 2009)

Hmm... that's merit in this. What's inside will eventually work it's way out, that's how I understand God's Holy Spirit to operate when changing a person. Everyone's progress is different, though. So, what may be a personal conviction for one person, may not be for another.

God works on people individually, not collectively. I've found myself at fault thinking along those lines as well. 




Mamita said:


> a
> 
> @ Dicapr i'll have to disagree, you're talking about "outshining" but God's power IS strong enough to CHANGE the outside, our whole CONVERSATION (lifestyle) changes to be like Christ's. Christ came as an exemple to follow among other things, and he was the humblest, and said for us to be separate from the worldl


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## Mamita (Nov 13, 2009)

Laela said:


> Hmm... that's merit in this. What's inside will eventually work it's way out, that's how I understand God's Holy Spirit to operate when changing a person. Everyone's progress is different, though. So, what may be a personal conviction for one person, may not be for another.
> 
> God works on people individually, not collectively. I've found myself at fault thinking along those lines as well.



totally, exemple, my fiance and I, both seeking, both being cleaned up, but he has HIS issues, HIS hinderances, and i have mine

i had less problems with flesh than him, and he had less problems with music than me

i always give time to see change

i know my mind was working a lot, being convisted takes time, then it shined through and took over


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## divya (Nov 13, 2009)

dicapr said:


> What a beautiful story.  I first took out my earrings when I held my niece.  My thought was that that precious child would never reach for me and I would move away because I was afraid that she would tear the earrings out of my ears.  Something as simple as that.  However, the earrings are back-I hate the way my holes are closing and leaving a black mark on my ears.  I scrubbed my ears thinking I had some type of fungus only to realize that I had the type of skin when the holes closed it leaves them severly discolored.  Now I wear small simple studs. I want to continue to make sure that my appearance is modest.



 Babies _will_ grab anything! Thank God there was no fungus. Sensitive skin can be something else though - wow. I find studs quite simple/modest as well. It's the principle behind these matters that are most important to grasp.


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## Mamita (Nov 13, 2009)

Search me Lord

Chorus
Search me Lord
Search me Lord
Turn the light from heaven
On my soul
If you find anything 
That shouldn't be
Take it out and straighten me
I want to be right
I want to be saved
I want to be whole
(repeat)

You know when I'm right
You know when I'm wrong
You know where I go
You know where I belong
You know what I do
You know my little secrets too
Search me, touch me, cleanse me
Through and through

Well you know all my faults
My every word and deed
You know what I want Lord
And you know just what I need
If there's something there
That I'm not aware
Well take it, move it,
Keep me in your care

Chorus


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## divya (Nov 13, 2009)

Laela said:


> Hmm... that's merit in this. What's inside will eventually work it's way out, that's how I understand God's Holy Spirit to operate when changing a person. Everyone's progress is different, though. So, what may be a personal conviction for one person, may not be for another.
> 
> God works on people individually, not collectively. I've found myself at fault thinking along those lines as well.



Well said. It's something we all have to remember. I definitely have fallen short here too. Even when some people do or say things that are hurtful, and we wonder how and why. God just might not be working on those aspects yet. And Lord knows there are issues that He is working with me on...

Thank God for His patience and longsuffering.


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## divya (Nov 13, 2009)

rafikichick92 said:


> Here's another: Christians in the end times will not avoid the tribulation via the rapture, but will be raptired at the end of the 7 years.



Meant to respond to this. Interesting. I also agree that Christians we be here during the tribulation.  However, I've never heard of a rapture after 7 years. What do you believe happens after that?


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## blazingthru (Nov 13, 2009)

divya said:


> I love that...and everything else you have said.
> 
> The feasts are something that I would like to study more deeply. I have heard that the feast of the tabernacles remains, but I've always thought that to have heavenly significance - when we get there. Open to any light you can shed on the issue...


 

yes I am very interested to. In fact I haven't really heard anything about the feast I would like to study that one out.  Thanks interesting.


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## Mamita (Nov 13, 2009)

i was thinking about self righteous on my way home

does anyone remember that video that razb from b2k did while this whole him and chris stokes thing came out?

he did a video ill always remember cause that's when i realised some of the mess the world is into

he was saying (add *S, F, D words* all over) something like yeah i forgive him, or i wont get mad cause im saved man you know im saved, i been speaking in tongues since i was 4 man etc...

i was like, say what? come again? HUH? what the heck? 

i wanna meet the people, pastors, parents that's been telling him that and are probably very proud to say stuff like that, 

THAT WASNT TONGUES THAT WAS GAS YOU DIMWIT !!

self righteous are the hardest to come to Christ cause they think they're already going to heaven and dont need anything else

i was looking so stupid looking at my screen with my mouth open lol


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## JinaRicci (Nov 13, 2009)

^^ The same is true for fanatics.  There's a danger b/c the focus is on the person's "righteousness" instead of on salvation through Christ Jesus.  I think we should never get to the point where we're so comfortable in our walk that we think we've made it.  We've got to keep growing spiritually & be open to God's refinement of our characters.


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## Crown (Nov 14, 2009)

Laela said:


> Yeah..I'd thought of doing that, too..but your thread came up and it was timely.
> 
> It's all about knowledge... educating ourselves as Christians on _why _we do what we do... not condemnation. Some people get that



In our walk, we have to remember 3 important points :
*The characteristics of the seven churches are also actual and prevailed. (Rev. 2 & 3)
*The parable of the ten virgins is for our times. All are virgins (Christians). All have a lamp (active). But only 5 are wise and have oil (Holy Spirit) with their lamps and are ready. (Matt. 25 : 1-13)
*We don’t have the same amount of talents : _unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability_. We have to work with our own talent and produce individual fruits. (Mat. 25 : 14-30)

The Christian journey is a course. In a course, some participate just to be in; some want to be on the podium and some dream for the gold.
Col. 2.18 *Let no man beguile you of your reward* in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

2Tim. 4.7 *I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith*: 4.8 Henceforth there is laid up *for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and* *not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.*


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## Crown (Nov 14, 2009)

divya said:


> I love that...and everything else you have said.
> 
> The feasts are something that I would like to study more deeply. I have heard that *the feast of the tabernacles* remains, but I've always thought that to have heavenly significance - when we get there.  Open to any light you can shed on the issue...



Are you interested by the *why* or the *how* ?
God willing, I will come back during the week.
God bless your week-end, ladies !


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## divya (Nov 14, 2009)

Crown said:


> Are you interested by the *why* or the *how* ?
> God willing, I will come back during the week.
> God bless your week-end, ladies !



Interested in both!


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## divya (Nov 14, 2009)

Crown said:


> In our walk, we have to remember 3 important points :
> *The characteristics of the seven churches are also actual and prevailed. (Rev. 2 & 3)
> *The parable of the ten virgins is for our times. All are virgins (Christians). All have a lamp (active). But only 5 are wise and have oil (Holy Spirit) with their lamps and are ready. (Matt. 25 : 1-13)
> *We don’t have the same amount of talents : _unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability_. We have to work with our own talent and produce individual fruits. (Mat. 25 : 14-30)
> ...



So very true. I love the way in which you have state this. Thank you!


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## Laela (Nov 15, 2009)

Yes...I'm in agreement.. that was so well said. 




divya said:


> So very true. I love the way in which you have state this. Thank you!


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## Mamita (Nov 17, 2009)

just wanted to say...

I feel good here (in this thread)

it reminded me that unfortunately there seems to be a conservative vs liberal thing going on

and im happy with my dinosaur beliefs, if i could go back to the first church days i would, anyday

that reminds me has anyone got a good book about how it was back then?
it can be historical, economical, not fiction, or if you know some "religious" oriented books about how things went, comparing jews worships and the first church, with the apostles, you know, i love details and trivia lol

im very careful with what i read, so i'd rather go on word to mouth

thank you ladies


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## Laela (Nov 17, 2009)

Mamita... I recalled reading a great post by Nicola on the bolded... 




Mamita said:


> just wanted to say...
> 
> I feel good here (in this thread)
> 
> ...


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## Mamita (Nov 17, 2009)

Laela said:


> Mamita... I recalled reading a great post by Nicola on the bolded...



Yeah i was actually talking about that thread, and it popped in my inbox cause i had asked for notification

i was amazed by her post

really good read

and i agree with her, but i'm "team conservative"  lol and dont mind the label lol


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## Crown (Nov 19, 2009)

divya said:


> Interested in both!



 God's Master Plan : The Holy Days –
 Old Testament meaning and* New Testament meaning*
 *Passover :*
 A lamb was sacrificed and its blood placed around the doors of Israelite houses in Egypt, which God "passed over" when slaying the Egyptian firstborn.
 (Leviticus 23:5)
 *Pictures Jesus Christ's shedding His blood for the sins of mankind.*

 *Feast of Unleavened Bread :*
 A seven-day festival during which leavening (such as yeast, which causes bread to rise when baking) is put out of dwellings and is not eaten.
(Leviticus 23:6-14)
 *Pictures the Christian's duty to "put out sin" from a life yielded to Jesus Christ.*

*Day of Pentecost :*
 A day celebrating the gathering in of the first and smaller of the two annual harvests; observed 50 days from a fixed point in the previous Feast.
(Leviticus 23:15-22)
*Pictures the Christian's receiving God's Holy Spirit.*

*Feast of Trumpets :*
 Called _Rosh Hashana_ by the Jews; a day of rejoicing marked by the blowing of trumpets. (Leviticus 23:23-25)
*Pictures a time of war and plagues, concluding with Jesus Christ's Second Coming.
*
*Day of Atonement :*
 A day of fasting and repentance, known to the Jews as _Yom Kippur_
(Leviticus 23:26-32)
*Pictures the binding of Satan at the beginning of the Millennium and the world becoming at one with God.*

*Feast of Tabernacles :*
 A seven-day celebration of the great fall harvest, observed by living in temporary dwellings for the duration of the Feast.   (Leviticus 23:33-43)
*Pictures the Millennium, when the earth will be ruled by Jesus Christ and His saints.*

*Last Great Day :*
 Adjacent to the Feast of Tabernacles, this eighth day is considered a separate Feast. (Leviticus 23:36, 39)
*Pictures the coming "Great White Throne Judgment" at which all of humanity not previously called will have the chance to hear the True Gospel and accept salvation.*

 [FONT=&quot]http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/cgi-bin/tw/booklets/tw-bk.cgi?category=Booklets1&item=1104358140[/FONT]


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## Crown (Nov 19, 2009)

The other feasts will be fulfilled in the kingdom of God ((Lu. 22:16). The feast of tabernacles/ingathering is a celebration of the great harvest, in other words a celebration of God’s sovereignty. It is an accomplishment of Mathew 6.10 *Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven*. As God’s reign will remain, the feast of tabernacles will remain in the kingdom of God.

For the how :
Lev 23 : 34-42; Deut. 16 : 13-15; Deut 31 : 9-13; Es. 3 : 4; Ne. 8 : 13-18.

The meaning of this feast
Jn. 7.2 Now *the Jew's feast of tabernacles* was at hand… 7.14 Now *about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught*… 7.16 Jesus answered them, and said, *My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.*
7.37 *In the last day, that great day of the feast*, Jesus stood and cried, saying, *If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.* 7.38 *He that believeth on me*, as the scripture hath said, *out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water*. 7.39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for *the Holy Ghost* was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

1- God’s choice
(Lev. 23.43 That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when_ I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God._)

1Pet. 2.9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath* called you out of darkness into his marvellous light*; 2.10 Which in time past were not a people, but are* now the people of God*: which had not obtained mercy, but* now have obtained mercy.*

2- God’s glory
(Ex.34.30 And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw _Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; _and they were afraid to come nigh him._ 34.35 _And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and_ Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him_.)

Mat. 16.27 For *the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father* *with his angels*; and then *he shall reward every man according to his works*. 16.28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see *the Son of man coming in his kingdom.*
Mat. 17.1 And after six days *Jesus* taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 17.2 And *was transfigured* before them: and *his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.*17.3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 17.4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, *let us make here three tabernacles*; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 17.5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, *This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.*
2Cor. 3 : 7-11; Mat. 24 : 30-31; Dan 12 : 2-3; Ph. 3 : 20-21; Is. 40 : 5

3- God’s reign
(Ex.34.29 And it came to pass, when _Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand_, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.)

Zac. 14.9 And *the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day* shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Is. 2.2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that *the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it*. 2.3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for *out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.*
Is. 32.1 Behold, *a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment*.
Is. 11 : 1-9; Jer. 31 : 34;  Is. 40 : 9-11

4- God’s presence
(Ex. 25.8 And _let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them._
25.9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.

Zac.8.2 *Thus saith the LORD of hosts*; I was jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I was jealous for her with great fury. 8.3 Thus saith the LORD; *I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.*
Is. 33.20 Look upon *Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down*; *not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken.* 33.21 But there the glorious LORD will be unto us a place of broad rivers and streams; wherein shall go no galley with oars, neither shall gallant ship pass thereby. 33.22 *For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us.*
Rev. 21.3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, *Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.* 21.4 And *God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.*


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## Crown (Nov 19, 2009)

The feast of tabernacles in the kingdom of God :
 Punishment
Zac. 14.17 And it shall be, that *whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King*, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be *no rain*. 14.18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; *there shall be the plague*, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 14.19 *This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.*

Rejoicing
(Deut. 16.14 And _thou shalt *rejoice* in thy feast_…)
Zac. 14.16 And it shall come to pass, that *every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles*.
Is. 25.6 And *in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.* 25.7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. 25.8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it. 
25.9 And it shall be said *in that day*, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, *we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.*

Is. 35.2 It shall blossom abundantly, and *rejoice even with joy and singing*: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, *they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.*
35.10 And *the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness*, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

In bottom, two detailed studies on the feast of tabernacles (one in text and one in subjects). I don’t agree with the part that Christians do keep the Jewish holy days (as I don’t follow the worldly or pagan holy days, Jesus-Christ is my Holy*), but it is very interesting.
http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fus...bernacles-When-Whole-World-Will-Be-Called.htm

http://sabbath.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/BS/k/493/subj/dub/Holy-Days-Gods-Plan.htm


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## Laela (Nov 19, 2009)

Thanks for the posts, Crown.


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## Crown (Nov 20, 2009)

:Rose:


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## MA2010 (Nov 22, 2009)

This thread has me whipping out my Bible!!!!

Thanks ladies.


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## MA2010 (Nov 22, 2009)

divya said:


> *2.* _Hell _translates to _the grave_ in most cases in the Hebrew and Greek. It is not a place that exists in the present, nor where people burn endlessly. The lake of fire will be created in the end and will burn out leaving nothing. Ecclesiastes 2; Revelation 20.


 
Divya, and other ladies, please help me with this belief.

I read both Ecclesiastes 2 and Revelation 20. I'm not understanding how the lake of fire will be burned out.

Revelation 20:10 
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. *They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.*

Does this only pertain to the devil, beast and false prophet?

Ecclesiastes 2 spoke of meaningless pleasures, folly, toil, and wisdom. I am confused with this also.

Help please............


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## divya (Nov 22, 2009)

Manushka said:


> Divya, and other ladies, please help me with this belief.
> 
> I read both Ecclesiastes 2 and Revelation 20. I'm not understanding how the lake of fire will be burned out.
> 
> ...



Of course Manushka! Please bear with me. This is very long, but I believe this is probably the best way to explain this issue.

The belief is based on the meaning of the term "forever and ever" in the Scriptures. But first, let's look at the lake of fire in general. It is not a place that is burning now.

*Matthew 5:28-29* - _ Marvel not at this: *for the hour is coming*, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. _

*Daniel 12:2* -  _And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth *shall awake*, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt._

*Revelation 22:12* _And, behold, I come quickly; *and my reward is with me*, to give every man according as his work shall be._

The Scriptures tell us that the hour is coming when we will receive our heavenly reward or the lake of fire. The lake of fire is not yet in existence. All people are sleeping in the grave awaiting for the Lord resurrect them at either the resurrection of life (Second Coming taking the righteous to heaven) or the next resurrection (ultimately resulting in the second death). The next post will explain this in a bit more detail.

___________________________________________


Ok, now to the the term for ever and ever/everlasting in terms of the lake of fire. 

As mentioned earlier, for ever in the Scriptures often has a different meaning than what we understand it to mean today. It often means until the end of an event. For an example, we can look at the story of Jonah. Jonah describes the length of time as forever.


*Jonah 5:6* - _The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head. I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me *for ever*: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God._

However, the Scriptures previously state that Jonah was in the belly of the whale 3 days and 3 nights.

*Jonah 1:17* - _Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights_.

Another example is Sodom and Gomorrah, where the Bible states that the cities suffered eternal fire. 

*Jude 1:7* - _Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, *suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.*_


But we know that the cities are not still burning today. The Bible means that they simply burning until all was consumed. 2 Peter 2:6 confirms this by stating that Sodom and Gomorrah were reduced to ashes. 

*2 Peter 2:6* - _*And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes* condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;_

__________________________________________


So it leaves you asking yourself, if Sodom and Gomorrha suffered _eternal_ fire, then why does 2 Peter say that they cities were reduced to ashes? It's because Holy Scriptures in many cases uses terms like forever/eternal etc. to mean _until the end of a particular event._ So the same concept with the lake of fire that will consume the wicked. Like Sodom and Gomorrah, the lake of fire that is supposed to burn _forever_, just means burning until everything is gone. See the following verses.

*Malachi 4:1* -  _For, behold, the day cometh, *that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble*: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, *that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.*_

*Psalm 37:38* -  _But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off._

*Job 21:30 * - _That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath._….

(continued in the next post)


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## divya (Nov 22, 2009)

...continuing....

It is important to note that the Bible tell us about death in general,how long the wicked will be dead, when they will be allowed to live again, and about their destruction. *My sincere apologies regarding Ecclesiastes 2, because it should be Ecclesiastes 9! *

*Ecclesiastes 9:5*_For the living know that they shall die: but *the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward*; for the memory of them is forgotten._

*Ecclesiastes 9:10* - _Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, i*n the grave, whither thou goest.*_

*Rev 20:5*_But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. _

The Bible makes sure to tell us that after the 1000 years where the righteous are with God, then that is the first time that the wicked are allowed to live again.  They are not resurrected before that. They are not already in any burning place. They are in the grave (hell).  After they are resurrected, the final destruction will occur. 

*Rev. 20:13-15* _And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire._

Notice the Bible says that "death and hell" delivered up the dead which were in them. It would not make sense if death and "burning fire" delivered up the dead for judgment. When you look at the Greek, it translates to "death and the grave" delivered up the dead for judgment. That makes sense because the wicked were dead and in the grave (hell). So they were resurrected out of the grave for the final judgment. Then death and the grave are cast into the lake of fire. That is the second death. Ultimately, the wicked are destroyed in the lake of fire, as are death and the grave (hell). That means that finally God does away with it all. No more dying. No more grave...so more burying our loved ones. (1 Cor. 15:55).  That's why in Rev. 21, the Scriptures go on to say...

*Rev. 21:1-4 *_And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes;* and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away*_

The wicked won't be burning endlessly because the Scriptures state that there will be no more sorrow, crying or pain. We also know for sure that the wicked will not burn endlessly because that would give them _eternal life_ (regardless of whether it would be miserable or not). The Scriptures tell us the reward of the wicked is death (not endless burning in the lake of fire but ultimate death), and that only the righteous will receive eternal life.

*Romans 6:23* - _For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord._


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## MA2010 (Nov 22, 2009)

Thank you so much for taking time explaining that. I really appreciate it!!! 

This is very eye opening for me. I had never thought of hell as not being a burning lake of fire forever. 

Ecclesiastes 9 makes a lot more sense......lol. Blessings girl!!! 

I'm learning from this here thread!!!


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## blazingthru (Nov 23, 2009)

I asked a question at  service, not the actual service but we had game night, and we were all sitting around waiting to set up the games and so forth, so I asked the question.   No one could answer its a silly question yet its still on my mind.  During the Flood where was Satan and his demons?  My daughter said they were on the boat but my heart tells me they were forbidden to rest on that boat. but do Angels need to rest?  I know its weird - I am guessing they were swimming in the ocean with the sea creatures someone said they were floating above the earth---- for over a year?  I do not know why I need to know the answer I just do. Especially since God put the earth, not the shape, back to the beginning. surrounded by water.  Which is the reason scientist can never tell the age the dirt and so forth has always been. It just has always been. but we know God put all of it together 6,000.00 years ago.  It just kind of stuck with me.


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## Laela (Nov 23, 2009)

That is such a good thing.... 
(the CF has that effect)



Manushka said:


> This thread has me whipping out my Bible!!!!
> 
> Thanks ladies.


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## SND411 (Nov 23, 2009)

blazingthru said:


> I asked a question at  service, not the actual service but we had game night, and we were all sitting around waiting to set up the games and so forth, so I asked the question.   No one could answer its a silly question yet its still on my mind.  During the Flood where was Satan and his demons?  My daughter said they were on the boat but my heart tells me they were forbidden to rest on that boat. but do Angels need to rest?  I know its weird - I am guessing they were swimming in the ocean with the sea creatures someone said they were floating above the earth---- for over a year?  I do not know why I need to know the answer I just do. Especially since God put the earth, not the shape, back to the beginning. surrounded by water.  Which is the reason scientist can never tell the age the dirt and so forth has always been. It just has always been. but we know God put all of it together 6,000.00 years ago.  It just kind of stuck with me.



Aren't the devil/demons spirits? Why would they need to get on a boat?


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## Crown (Nov 23, 2009)

> This thread has me whipping out my Bible!!!!
> 
> Thanks ladies.





> This is very eye opening for me. I had never thought of hell as not being a burning lake of fire forever.



We have to be careful and closed to the Bible : there are some pagan beliefs in _modern _Christianity. Wake up, people of God !

God is Life.
Man is dust.
Man (from the dust) + life (from God) = living soul.
Man is a living soul or he is dead.
At death, the life returns to God and the body returns to the earth and becomes dust.
A body can not burn eternally, it burns until dust. The dust is just dust.

 Gen. 2.7 And the LORD *God formed man of the dust of the ground*, and *breathed into his nostrils the breath of life*; and *man became a living soul.*

Gen. 3.19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, *till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.*

Ecc. 12.7 Then shall *the dust return to the earth as it was*: and *the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.  *


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## Crown (Nov 23, 2009)

Take the time to read this, please : Ezechiel and the valley of bones.

 Ez. 37.1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the *valley which was full of bones*, 37.2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were *very many* in the open valley; and, lo, they were *very dry*. 37.3 And he said unto me, Son of man, *can these bones live*? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest. 37.4 Again he said unto me, *Prophesy upon these bones*, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 37.5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; *Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: *37.6 *And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. *

37.7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and *as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.* 37.8 And when I beheld, lo, *the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them*. 37.9 Then said he unto me, *Prophesy unto the wind*, prophesy, son of man, *and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.* 37.10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, *and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.* 

37.11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, *these bones are the whole house of Israel*: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. 37.12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, *Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.* 37.13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 37.14 *And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live*, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.


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## blazingthru (Nov 23, 2009)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> Aren't the devil/demons spirits? Why would they need to get on a boat?


 THey are angelic beings. They feel and live. We just can't see them. Because of our sin. But they still have wants and desires maybe not like ours but we know that they do, because of their fear of Jesus. Its interesting. I know its a silly question but I am curious.


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## blazingthru (Nov 23, 2009)

I have another question which I am going to study out.  At service in many churches, they ask you to come up to the altar for special annointing or I don't know I usually tune it out and I see people get up but I do not. I do not because I never got it, but a friend of mines was saying that there is no need for it and really the chruch should stop doing it. I didn't feel that strongly about it until we were reading matthew 6 Giving to the Poor and Prayer
 1"Beware of practicing your righteousness before men (A)to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven. 
 2"So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they (B)may be honored by men (C)Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 

 3"But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 

 4so that your giving will be in secret; and (D)your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you. 

 5"When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to (E)stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners (F)so that they may be seen by men (G)Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 

 6"But you, when you pray, (H)go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and (I)your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you. 

 7"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their (J)many words. 

 8"So do not be like them; for (K)your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. 

So although I have not studied this out completely I think if people want to come thats up to them, I do not think  the church should call or invite anyone. Because it is not a special place of prayer anywhere is a special place and its not like if you go up there God hears you better, He already knows what we need.  So is it because of the sacrifice on the altar and then the prayer that people still go to the altar and pray and we do not have an altar, they just come to the front and pray.  the entire church bows down.


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## discobiscuits (Nov 24, 2009)

human sin has nothing to do with seeing spirits, angels or demons. angelic beings and spirits are on a different plane than corporal human beings but they can be seen by humans.
2Ki 6:17

spirits/demons/angles do not possess certain human attributes and do not swim, eat, drink, die (like humans), sleep, breathe air, or require boats to travel. the devil is an angelic being and angelic beings are different than spirits/demons which need a "house" aka body. 
Mat 8:31, Mar 5:12, Luke 8:33, Mat 8:28, Mar 7:26

angels also appear in various forms (human &  non-human) and in dreams.
Exd 3:2, Mat 1:20

not all angels are of the Lord 
Jhn 5:4




blazingthru said:


> THey are angelic beings. They feel and live. We just can't see them. Because of our sin. But they still have wants and desires maybe not like ours but we know that they do, because of their fear of Jesus. Its interesting. I know its a silly question but I am curious.





AfriPrincess411 said:


> Aren't the devil/demons spirits? Why would they need to get on a boat?





blazingthru said:


> I asked a question at  service, not the actual service but we had game night, and we were all sitting around waiting to set up the games and so forth, so I asked the question.   No one could answer its a silly question yet its still on my mind.  During the Flood where was Satan and his demons?  My daughter said they were on the boat but my heart tells me they were forbidden to rest on that boat. but do Angels need to rest?  I know its weird - I am guessing they were swimming in the ocean with the sea creatures someone said they were floating above the earth---- for over a year?  I do not know why I need to know the answer I just do. Especially since God put the earth, not the shape, back to the beginning. surrounded by water.  Which is the reason scientist can never tell the age the dirt and so forth has always been. It just has always been. but we know God put all of it together 6,000.00 years ago.  It just kind of stuck with me.


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## MA2010 (Nov 27, 2009)

divya said:


> *7.* When you die, you don't go straight to heaven. Righteous dead wait until the Second Coming of Christ, and the wicked until after the 1000 years. 1 Thess 4:16-17; Rev. 20.


 
Hey ladies, I have another question.

In Luke 16 scriptures state that Lazarus the begger was carried by angels to Abraham's side: 22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side.

In the same chapter the rich man was in agony requesting a taste of water: 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.

So these two have gone staright to heaven and hell but we will not? I have more questions on this but am currently drawing a blank.....lol.

Thanks for any help with this........


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## Crown (Nov 27, 2009)

Manushka said:


> Hey ladies, I have another question.
> 
> In Luke 16 scriptures state that Lazarus the begger was carried by angels to Abraham's side: 22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side.
> 
> ...



I think this thread can help you understand, especially the second and third post.
http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=403784


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## MA2010 (Nov 27, 2009)

Crown said:


> I think this thread can help you understand, especially the second and third post.
> http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=403784


 

So, we are not judged after death until the second coming of Christ. Ok got it. 

Thanks!


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## divya (Nov 27, 2009)

Good question Manushka and my apologies for being so late. The thread that Crown posted covers the parable of Lazarus (thanks Crown!).  But if you have any other questions about it, let's discuss...


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## MA2010 (Dec 2, 2009)

Ok ladies. I pray the Lord is keeping you and yours surrounded with love and faith. I really do appreciate the growth and knowledge I have gained from studying the word of God. 

I would like to revisit not going straight to heaven when we die again. 

On the cross during His crucifixion Jesus tells the criminal that TODAY he would be with him in paradise. 

 Luke 43: Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

This scripture, to me, is proving that there is no wait. 

Paul also says "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." (2Corinthians 5:8, KJV). 

So if I am absent in my body (died) then am I not with the Lord?


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## Mamita (Dec 2, 2009)

hey i'm glad u're finding answers here


Manushka said:


> On the cross during His crucifixion Jesus tells the criminal that TODAY he would be with him in paradise.
> 
> Luke 43: Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
> 
> This scripture, to me, is proving that there is no wait.



U have to realise we are talking about God himself in the flesh talking here, the whole time He was dwelling on earth is not the same as now. Even if He could do miracles and give a man his sight back on the spot for exemple, someone saved today with the gift of healing hands, it will take a lil more time. that is only proof that Jesus Christ God in the flesh was all powerful, not that we go after He's gone directly to heaven. 

Ladies if you can be clearer than me please go ahead lool



> Paul also says "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." (2Corinthians 5:8, KJV).
> 
> So if I am absent in my body (died) then am I not with the Lord?



in this case absent in the body does not mean dead, absent of the body means not minding fleshly things, but being spiritually oriented. We crucify flesh down here while we're alive to be more spiritually powerful and present with God. that does not mean dead. We're also present with God when He is present IN us, dwelling inside, the Holy Ghost, and the only way is to leave flesh behind. 

I hope it helps


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## momi (Dec 2, 2009)

MA2010 said:


> Ok ladies. I pray the Lord is keeping you and yours surrounded with love and faith. I really do appreciate the growth and knowledge I have gained from studying the word of God.
> 
> I would like to revisit not going straight to heaven when we die again.
> 
> ...


 
Exactly - once we leave this earth through death we as believers will immediately be present with The Lord.

Stephen the first Christian martyr opened his eyes as he was dying - heaven opened, and he saw The Lord.  

The thief on the cross was promised that he would be with The Lord "this day"... 

Phil 1:23 -   I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 

Our spirits immediately go to be with The Lord - then at the resurrection of believers our physical bodies are reiunted with our souls...


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## dicapr (Dec 2, 2009)

MA2010 said:


> Ok ladies. I pray the Lord is keeping you and yours surrounded with love and faith. I really do appreciate the growth and knowledge I have gained from studying the word of God.
> 
> I would like to revisit not going straight to heaven when we die again.
> 
> ...


 


Luke 43 does state that the theif would be with Jesus in paradise.  However, Jesus is not raised until Sunday and states that he had not yet seen his Father.  If he went to heaven after his death he would have already seen the Father. My understanding is that in Luke 43 Jesus was letting the theif know that he had Salvation that day and he had a place in heaven that day.  I don't think that verse is a case for going to heaven after death just because it doesn't mesh with Reserrection Sunday.


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## MrJohnsonsRib (Dec 2, 2009)

dicapr said:


> Mamita, I agree that God is able to change the outside. However, the outside doesn't always reflect the inside. Think of Samuel when God sent him to annoint David. Samuel was guilty of judging who would be the next king based solely on the appearence of Jessie's sons. David did not look like king material, but he had a heart for the Lord. Look at Rahab the harlot. You can best believe that she was dressed according to her profession. However, she knew that Isreal was God's chosen people and had the heart to help. The bible is full of examples of those who were rightous even though the did not fit the current definition of what a rightous person should look like. The inside matters more than the outside ever will. The Pharasees (sp?) looked rightous in every way but their heart was far from the Lord. We do not always know where someone used to be, we cannot always judge if there has been a change or an improvement. It's kind of like someone being 100 lbs over weight. You may think that individual needs someone to talk to them about health living and exercise. What you may not know it that they just lost 50 lbs. That is why we need to ask the Lord to help us see the inner person while he is changing the outside.
> 
> I am actually a very modest individual by nature. I have always been that way. I believe that God wants us to be modest according to the standards of the day we live in. People make snap judgements about who someone is depending on their appearance. However there are many who use the outside to promote false advertising.


 
I'm careful about saying that I 100% agree with someone but I'm gonna put my "Amen stamp" on there with what you said. I feel the same way about the whole Christian "APPEARANCE", the work of the Lord is never gonna go void whether we think we foolin folks by playin or if we are still growing up in Christ with some hangups. The Lord still loves a backslider anyway so nobody can boast themselves up above anybody, including in their appearance. I am just so glad that even though we have so many different Christian views that the Lord sees our heart and our true desire to serve Him at our best because of His grace and mercy. Talk about unconditional love...so glad I get to be his bride when he comes back.:reddancer:


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## mz tracy 25 (Dec 2, 2009)

In regards to that, my father always taught (he's a scholar, and a minister), that the comma was placed in the wrong place during translation and it was supposed to say, " I tell you the truth today, you shall be with me in paradise." And if that's the truth, it makes sense. If not, it seems like the bible is contradicting itself. Man makes errors, and sometimes this causes people to say the bible is erroneous, but this is not so. Whenever in doubt look up the original Hebrew meaning of words, like the word fornication doesn't mean having sex and not being married. Married persons can commit fornication as well, and single persons who have sex aren't necessarily committing fornication. Do your research. Here's a starting point:http://jesus-messiah.com/html/fornication.html

And here's a few other things I believe:

1. The Sabbath is Saturday, not Sunday
2. Christmas and Easter are totally pagan holidays and celebrating them is actually worshipping God in vain.  You can't put Christ back in something he was never in. Farrakhan isn't even a Christian and he knows. Wake up people! lol. Here's some vids on the subject: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQwSBWN8K40&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qnOLzxVyC0


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## aribell (Dec 2, 2009)

mz tracy 25 said:


> In regards to that, my father always taught (he's a scholar, and a minister), that the comma was placed in the wrong place during translation and it was supposed to say, " I tell you the truth today, you shall be with me in paradise." And if that's the truth, it makes sense. If not, it seems like the bible is contradicting itself. Man makes errors, and sometimes this causes people to say the bible is erroneous, but this is not so. Whenever in doubt look up the original Hebrew meaning of words, like the word fornication doesn't mean having sex and not being married. Married persons can commit fornication as well, and single persons who have sex aren't necessarily committing fornication. Do your research. Here's a starting point:http://jesus-messiah.com/html/fornication.html


 
That is a very interesting point abou the comma.  That makes so much more sense.  Sometimes I think we want the the Bible to be pure, unadulterated truth.  And God's word is definitely true without error, but our task is to continually translate and interpret it correctly, which is a continual process.


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## aribell (Dec 2, 2009)

I'm late, but I don't believe in the penal substitutionary theory of the atonement.  The Cross is definitey necessary, central, and the means by which we are saved.  But still, I don't think that the purpose of Jesus dying on the Cross was so that God could pour out His wrath on Him instead of us.

I don't believe that the Protestant Reformation was a good thing.

I also don't believe that "sola Scriptura" as generally applied is a biblical principle.

And this may or may not be non-mainstream depending on where you are, but I don't believe that the charismatic gifts ceased with the NT church.  The fact that we don't experience them more fully and more often in this country is reflective of a lagging spiritual state.


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## blazingthru (Dec 2, 2009)

MA2010 said:


> Ok ladies. I pray the Lord is keeping you and yours surrounded with love and faith. I really do appreciate the growth and knowledge I have gained from studying the word of God.
> 
> I would like to revisit not going straight to heaven when we die again.
> 
> ...


 
I rather be with God then here on this earth in this body with its many afflictions. Is What Paul was saying, he was saying if he wasn’t here he rather be with the Lord.  If he had died upon his first awaken he would be with the lord. As we all who died in Christ,  We know that he isn’t saying when you die you go to be with the Lord because in 1 Thess 4:16 – 17 Jesus is coming to get those who love him and have obeyed his commandments. He is coming to bring up those from the grave.  He is coming with a lot of noise.  When you die, you sleep in your grave. Your breath of life returns to God, its just air nothing more than that. Just air. Your spirit/body remains asleep.  The passage above is a clerical error it is missing a comma or rather the comma is in the wrong place as Dicapr has stated.  
*Those Who Died in Christ*
 *13*But (AD)we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who (AE)are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do (AF)the rest who have (AG)no hope. 
 *14*For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, (AH)even so God will bring with Him (AI)those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 
 *15*For this we say to you (AJ)by the word of the Lord, that (AK)we who are alive and remain until (AL)the coming of the Lord, will not precede (AM)those who have fallen asleep. 
 *16*For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of (AQ)the archangel and with the (AR)trumpet of God, and (AS)the dead in Christ will rise first. 
 *17*Then (AT)we who are alive and remain will be (AU)caught up together with them (AV)in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always (AW)be with the Lord. 
 *18*Therefore comfort one another with these words. 
So if I am absent in my body (died) then am I not with the Lord?  what makes you you will be with the body until the return of Jesus and then your breath will return to you body and you will recieved a new body and go with Jesus to heaven.


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## Crown (Dec 2, 2009)

mz tracy 25 said:


> Married persons can commit fornication as well, and *single persons who have sex aren't necessarily committing fornication*. Do your research. Here's a starting point:http://jesus-messiah.com/html/fornication.html



I don't agree with the bold and I don't think I saw this in the article. But, I want to thank you for this link.
It's a very interesting article about fornication :
*Does the word fornication mean sexual relations   only between single persons?  No!  *
*Fornication can also be between unmarried persons.    It does not take a rocket scientist to see that if two people are single   and not married to each other they can commit fornication...
**Does the Greek allow for fornication to be sex only   by single persons? NO! *
*Here are the persons who can commit fornication:   **Those who commit   adultery*, *Those who commit incest, **Idolatry is   fornication, **Unlawful   lust*, *A harlot   or a whore*, *A male   prostitute, **A female   prostitute, **Whoremongers.

*And, there are more articles here :
http://jesus-messiah.com/studies.html


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## aribell (Dec 2, 2009)

mz tracy 25 said:


> Married persons can commit fornication as well, and *single persons who have sex aren't necessarily committing fornication.* Do your research. Here's a starting point:http://jesus-messiah.com/html/fornication.html


 
While the definition of fornication may be broader than acts between single persons, it is definitely all inclusive of sexual acts between unmarried persons.  The article cited puts it this way:  "*Fornication is all sexual conduct except that between a man and wife.  If a married person has relations with anyone to whom they are not married this is fornication."*

So, single persons who have sex would definitely be committing fornication, as the only legitimate context in which one can have sex is marriage (with one's own spouse).  I just don't want people to take the black bolded and run away with it.


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## Crown (Dec 2, 2009)

MA2010 said:


> Ok ladies. I pray the Lord is keeping you and yours surrounded with love and faith. I really do appreciate the growth and knowledge I have gained from studying the word of God.
> 
> I would like to revisit not going straight to heaven when we die again.
> 
> ...



There is no wait only through Christ, not the little you(general), but by adoption. When the breath of life returns to God, if you have received the salvation, it is sealed with the Holy Spirit of God. It's not you because you are dust and hoping for the redemption of your body and the eternal life of God in this new body. It is the identification of the Holy Spirit of God. If you(general) are not saved, there is no identification.

Mat. 7.21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 7.22 *Many will say to me in that day*, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 7.23 *And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity*. 
  
 Rom. 8.10 And if Christ be in you, *the body is dead* because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 8.11 *But if the Spirit of him *that raised up Jesus from the dead *dwell in you, he *that raised up Christ from the dead *shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit *that dwelleth in you.
 [FONT=&quot]8.14[FONT=&quot] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 8.15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but *ye have received the Spirit of adoption*, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 8.16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: [/FONT]
[/FONT]    8.23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, *waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body*. 8.24 For *we are saved by hope*: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 8.25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
 8.35 *Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?* shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
 8.37 *Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.* 8.38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 8.39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, *which is in Christ Jesus our Lord*.
 
 [FONT=&quot]1Cor. [/FONT]15.20 But now is *Christ* risen from the dead, and become *the firstfruits of them that slept*. 15.21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 15.22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 15.23 But *every man in his own order*: *Christ the firstfruits*; *afterward they that are Christ's at his coming*. 15.24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 15.25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 15.26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 
 1Thes. 4.13 *But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.* 4.14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, *even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.* 4.15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that *we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep*. 4.16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and *the dead in Christ shall rise first*: 4.17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 4.18 *Wherefore comfort one another with these words.*
 
 Dan. 12.2 And *many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake*, *some to everlasting life*, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 12.3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
 12.13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for *thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days*.
 
 2Cor. 5.10 For *we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body*, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
 
Dead or living, believers are living through Jesus-Christ. One does not receive immortality before the others. It will be at the second coming of Jesus-Christ.


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## mz tracy 25 (Dec 2, 2009)

mz tracy 25 said:


> Married persons can commit fornication as well, and *single persons who have sex aren't necessarily committing fornication.* Do your research. Here's a starting point:http://jesus-messiah.com/html/fornication.html


 

I meant to say "single persons who have sex aren't necessarily *the only ones* committing fornication.


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## Sharpened (Dec 5, 2009)

I do not give to organizations who are strict adherents to 501-c3 tax code. I give to give, never for tax deductions. Why?

*Matthew 6:3-4* But when you do alms, let not your left hand know what your right hand does. That your alms may be in secret and your Father which sees in secret himself shall reward you openly.

I made the mistake of bragging about the fact that the organization I gave to was not under the government's influence through that tax code. Three days later, I got their envelope in the mail and learned they relented to file under non-profit status, hoping to keep their doors open. Sad as I was, I repented and He provided two different places not under 501-c3 I could help. 

I now this does not make sense to most, but I am encouraged by those who  lean on Him regardless of whatever happens.


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## Poohbear (Aug 16, 2010)

How do you non-mainstream Christians feel about "church" membership and attendance?

I know the Bible says, "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together..." in Hebrews 10:25, but to me, that does NOT mean going to a church building once a week with church members. I feel like this assembling can take place anywhere at anytime.

I also agree with this paragraph below taken from this site http://www.godfire.net/Assembly.html :

_Nevertheless, if we used Hebrews 10:25 as a foundation for this study, it would not remain stable. Due of its popularity in the church, and people’s constant misuse of it, is what caused me to cite it in this publication. It is the most often used and abused verse when provoking people to go to ‘church’. It is also used to condemn them for not going. The horrible mind-set for so many is that if a person is a Christian they must attend a ‘church’ of some kind or another. Any ‘church’ will do as long as it carries corporate papers, is sanctioned by mainstream religion, or it is at least a place where people gather on a weekly basis to listen to one person tell his or her view of the Bible. It is in their misguided thinking that everyone has to have a ‘church’ to ‘cover’ them. 

Those who do not attend such organized gatherings are suspect in whether they are really Christians or not. They ask, "How could anyone who claims to be a Christian not go to church?" The fact is, they have somewhat of a legitimate question, especially when we consider their perspective. Of course, there is no place in scripture that says the only way a person can be a Christian is to belong to or go to a certain church. Such thoughts are manmade. _


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## Guitarhero (Aug 16, 2010)

divya said:


> This is an informational thread for those who may like to voice their beliefs and views, which are not typical of the mainstream. Here are a few and feel free to add more:
> 
> *1.* Salvation is a gift, than can be accepted or rejected at any point in life. Therefore, one is not _once saved always saved._ John 3:16.
> 
> ...



Since this was bumped....some of these opinions are definitely mainstream christianity.


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## Poohbear (Aug 16, 2010)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> Since this was bumped....some of these opinions are definitely mainstream christianity.


 Really? I was under the impression that #3 would be the only one that divya posted as mainstream. But...

#1 is not mainstream because most Christians believe in the "once saved always saved" doctrine

#2 is not mainstream because most Christians believe Hell is a burning firery place, not a grave

#4 is not mainstream because most Christians eat meat that was considered unclean back in the Old Testament

#5 is not mainstream because alot of Christians believe you do not have to be "necessarily good" to get into Heaven.


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## Sharpened (Aug 16, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> How do you non-mainstream Christians feel about "church" membership and attendance?
> 
> I know the Bible says, "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together..." in Hebrews 10:25, but to me, that does NOT mean going to a church building once a week with church members. I feel like this assembling can take place anywhere at anytime.
> 
> ...


Here is a different way to look at it: what does the underground church in countries not friendly to this walk do to grow? Answer: they spread themselves out. Once an assembly grows too large, they split up but still fellowship with the old group whenever they get the chance. Isn't that how the early church operated? Shouldn't we do this also? Instead, people in the West have locked themselves into these corporate entities and have become lukewarm by stagnation. Another factor to consider: the larger the institution, the more corrupt it becomes. Corruption and deception has no power until people accept it. The Wall Street Journal posted an article about seeker-friendly churches faltering by their focus on the youth rather than the Body.

There is coming a day when Our Father is going to shake people out of these places so the Gospel can be properly told; that is happening as we speak. I will not apologize for giving encouragement and searching for truth with family, friends, or perfect strangers who crave to talk about Him without any pretext. I have learned more than I have corrected, even from a very wise seven-year-old.

If the Body is forced underground one day, I will be ready for it. Other are not being prepared for this possibility and will fall away as Jesus stated in Matthew 24.


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## OhmyKimB (Aug 16, 2010)

Hmmm...I only eat whatever (and that's not much since I'm more the a little bit picky) is because of Romans 14

Maybe it's the same thing...yo no se.


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## luthiengirlie (Aug 16, 2010)

Wonder

If this is. Like Torah/Messianic vs. Non-Torah Observant. I'm not including Talmud at all. I'm still very much a beginnner in being Torah observant Christian.  Observing Shabbat,Dietary Laws and all. But these are inital musings of mine.


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## Guitarhero (Aug 16, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Really? I was under the impression that #3 would be the only one that divya posted as mainstream. But...
> 
> #1 is not mainstream because most Christians believe in the "once saved always saved" doctrine
> 
> ...




My church is mainstream...but then again...it's, well, you know...from which you all derive.  But #1...persevere until the end...reason there is confession, #2 (Jewish tradition...there are more than just one meaning/sides to it, many levels of meaning), #4 ...many orthodox/catholic do not eat pork around the world and we don't believe the 10 Commandments are obsolete...linking to confession, #5...definitely mainstream because you can't get to heaven solely by believing you must be good...you actually have to follow the path.  That's why we have confession.  And of course, nobody says, "are you saved?"  Shrugs.

So, it depends upon whom you ask.  Most people don't think of catholicism and orthodoxy to be mainstream when they are they largest and original church (yes, I know the first century church...referring to the eucharist and it's true meaning which is what Christ Himself instituted and it's been unchanged eversince).


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## SND411 (Aug 16, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> How do you non-mainstream Christians feel about "church" membership and attendance?
> 
> I know the Bible says, "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together..." in Hebrews 10:25, but to me, that does NOT mean going to a church building once a week with church members. I feel like this assembling can take place anywhere at anytime.
> 
> ...



I agree with this post. As long as you gather in some fashion with fellow believers while doing the work God has sent you out to do, I don't see the problem.


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## SND411 (Aug 16, 2010)

I'm not sure I believe in the Trinity as held by the mainstream.


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## Poohbear (Aug 17, 2010)

SND411 said:


> I'm not sure I believe in the Trinity as held by the mainstream.


I try to see the Trinity like this symbol below (one in essence, not the same). How do you feel about it???


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## SND411 (Aug 17, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> I try to see the Trinity like this symbol below (one in essence, not the same). How do you feel about it???



It doesn't make sense to me because Jesus Himself never referred to God in this way. He simply said "God IS Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and Truth." He also said a Spirit does not have flesh and bones. Jesus had flesh and bones, but describe His body as The Temple; a structure that houses the Spirit of God. So what exactly is God the Father if He isn't a Spirit?

I also feel many people view God the Father as strict/meaner, while Jesus as soft and compassionate. How does that not create a polytheistic mindset?


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## Guitarhero (Aug 17, 2010)

SND411 said:


> I'm not sure I believe in the Trinity as held by the mainstream.




That's interesting.  Which aspect of the Trinity?  Holy Spirit, Father or Jesus?  You don't find them Divine?

Oh, now reading your last post ( I came in prematurely), I see some of what you're saying.  But Jesus also referred to His Father and also that He'd send the Ruakh haKodesh...Holy Spirit to the believers on Pentecost (what became that day known now as Pentecost).  Remember the one who asked who would be at God's side in Heaven and Jesus told them they didn't know what they were asking about.  I think it's because they didn't understand the 3 persons of the Trinity.  

In addition, I believe that it's 3 distinct persons (Elohim) but also denotes a relationship between them.  So, do you think Jesus was Divine?  I'll be back later to read the responses...


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## Guitarhero (Aug 17, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> I try to see the Trinity like this symbol below (one in essence, not the same). How do you feel about it???



That's what I believe and that's a nice diagram.  In the Creed, it's:
_________________________________________________________________
*We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is seen and unseen.*

 We believe in *one Lord, Jesus Christ*,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, *one in Being with the Father.*
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
*he came down from heaven*:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary, *and became man*.........

We believe in the *Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.*
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
....................
______________________________________________
  Boy are these questions good for people to look at what they were taught and what they believe.  Sometimes, you just take it for granted that everybody believes the same and is taught the same, but it's not true.  What better way than to gather up what you believe and examine everything.  But anyhoo, the council of Nicea put into stone this belief as universal for the church in 325...but the beliefs are ancient.  It was unified on that day.  Interesting.


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## SND411 (Aug 17, 2010)

I believe Jesus is God. But like He said, "destroy this Temple and in Three Days I will Raise it up," He was talking about His body. What was the purpose of the Temple? The ultimate indwelling of God. His body housed the Holy Spirit of God, so that His actions, words, power, and personality was/is God, just clothed in human flesh. Because remember, no one can truly see God and live.

Jesus did promise the Holy Spirit to His disciples, but remember He also said in John 14:18
I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
Jesus practically tells them that He, Himself, will come again. 

When Jesus told them to pray in the Name (singular) of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in Acts, the Apostles prayed and performed miracles in Jesus' own name. 

Plus did not Jesus say to the Samaritan woman, in John 4:22;
You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.

As much as I can recollect, I never knew that the Jews of His day or any other time ever conceived of God as a Trinity.


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## Poohbear (Aug 17, 2010)

SND411 said:


> It doesn't make sense to me because Jesus Himself never referred to God in this way. He simply said "God IS Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and Truth." He also said a Spirit does not have flesh and bones. Jesus had flesh and bones, but describe His body as The Temple; a structure that houses the Spirit of God. So what exactly is God the Father if He isn't a Spirit?
> 
> I also feel many people view God the Father as strict/meaner, while Jesus as soft and compassionate. How does that not create a polytheistic mindset?


You're right about Jesus referring to God as a Spirit. This means that He is not a physical being (human) limited to one space. He is present everywhere and He can be worshipped anywhere, anytime. 

I would say that "God the Father" is a spirit... according the the symbol, "God the Father" is not the "Holy Spirit" when it comes to function.  God the Father's function is being our heavenly father and Creator and giving us His Son Jesus Christ. God the Holy Spirit's function is being our Comforter and guiding us in our Christian walk.

So yeah, the symbol does seem to be a bit faulty.

I guess the trinity can be seen like this analogy by Sweet C from years ago:

Originally Posted by *Sweet C* 
_I think this discussion is quite interesting to say the least. The best way I can think of to really describe the concept of the trinity is using someone as an example. For example, I will use JenJen2721. She is a wife, daughter, and mother. She is not 3 different people, but she is one person functioning in three different ways. How she interacts as a wife is very different than how she interacts as a mother or daughter, but they are all related, b/c they are all apart of who she is. The same thing with God. He operates as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but he is one and the same._


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## Guitarhero (Aug 17, 2010)

SND411 said:


> As much as I can recollect, I never knew that the Jews of His day or any other time ever conceived of God as a Trinity.




They didn't and it was developed amongst the early believers as they continued to come into the truth.  Jesus was the one who introduced to the world the reality of the third person (distinct) of the Trinity.  If the HOly Spirit is God, if the Father is God and if Jesus is also God, I humbly ask, what's the problem with the doctrine of the Tri-Une God?  Can you further explain???  Incidentally, the nature of Christ was argued over and over again and finally led to heresies.  Eutyches was one...not believing that the nature of Jesus was totally Divine but that his human side was dissolved into the Divine, giving Him one nature, in essence, which is not true.  His nature remain distinct and separate.  But anyhoo....He is a mystery and one which our brains and spirits cannot fully discern.  Can anybody truly comprehend all the nature of God?  No.  And we realize this.

Very interesting discussion!!!


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## SND411 (Aug 17, 2010)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> But anyhoo....He is a mystery and one which our brains and spirits cannot fully discern.  Can anybody truly comprehend all the nature of God?  No.  And we realize this.



I always get this response from people when I discuss the Trinity. The thing is, I want to know WHO I am worshiping and praying to. Some people tell me not to pray to Jesus but to God the Father. If they are both God, what difference does it make. Even Stephen prayed to Jesus. I do not want to view God as a being with a split personality. I understand that we are human beings with finite minds that cannot possibly comprehend all there is to know about God, but I feel like knowing whether God is triune or singular is pretty important and something we must understand. I mean, even the Bible stated Jesus came so that we can know God. We are the Bride of Christ after all, and who else knows a husband better than his own wife?


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## SND411 (Aug 17, 2010)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> They didn't and it was developed amongst the early believers as they continued to come into the truth.  Jesus was the one who introduced to the world the reality of the third person (distinct) of the Trinity.  If the HOly Spirit is God, if the Father is God and if Jesus is also God, I humbly ask, what's the problem with the doctrine of the Tri-Une God?  Can you further explain???  Incidentally, the nature of Christ was argued over and over again and finally led to heresies.  Eutyches was one...not believing that the nature of Jesus was totally Divine but that his human side was dissolved into the Divine, giving Him one nature, in essence, which is not true.  His nature remain distinct and separate.  But anyhoo....He is a mystery and one which our brains and spirits cannot fully discern.  Can anybody truly comprehend all the nature of God?  No.  And we realize this.
> 
> Very interesting discussion!!!



It is said they didn't know about the Trinity, but it was Jesus Himself who claimed that the Jews of His day knew who they worshiped. How can they not know something so integral? Who other people knew God more than the ones God chose to reveal Himself to?

I believe in Phillipians 2:6. I think that because Jesus came down to Earth as a human being and left His glory, becoming a servant, He purposely addressed God frequently as a seperate entity. Calling Him "My/your Father"" when in reality the whole time He was speaking about Himself. Why do you think He kept on asking His disciples "who did people say He was?" 

Jesus said He would not leave us fatherless because He will come to us. Jesus said He personally would raise His Temple, and yet another verse has Jesus indicating that the Father would raise His Temple.


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## Guitarhero (Aug 17, 2010)

SND411 said:


> It is said they didn't know about the Trinity, but it was Jesus Himself who claimed that the Jews of His day knew who they worshiped. How can they not know something so integral? Who other people knew God more than the ones God chose to reveal Himself to?
> 
> I believe in Phillipians 2:6. I think that because Jesus came down to Earth as a human being and left His glory, becoming a servant, He purposely addressed God frequently as a seperate entity. Calling Him "My/your Father"" when in reality the whole time He was speaking about Himself. Why do you think He kept on asking His disciples "who did people say He was?"
> 
> Jesus said He would not leave us fatherless because He will come to us. Jesus said He personally would raise His Temple, and yet another verse has Jesus indicating that the Father would raise His Temple.



Well, people who are raised around christians, maybe raised from christians and don't know that Jesus is God???  Same thing.  We only need put ourselves into that situation and time-span.  God has no physical body...and for many people, this was the issue.  Some of the learned leaders in the law and Torah knew He was Messiah.  

I don't believe He's addressing Himself when He says, "The Father."  He said He wasn't greater than the Father.  But one reason for all the miracles and fulfillment of the prophecies (and some believe they haven't all been fulfilled) was to demonstrate His Divinity.  But it still leads me to ask you what about the Trinity doctrine you believe to be false?  Do you believe there is the Son, Father, Holy Spirit?


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## Guitarhero (Aug 17, 2010)

SND411 said:


> I always get this response from people when I discuss the Trinity. The thing is, I want to know WHO I am worshiping and praying to. Some people tell me not to pray to Jesus but to God the Father. If they are both God, what difference does it make. Even Stephen prayed to Jesus. I do not want to view God as a being with a split personality. *I understand that we are human beings with finite minds that cannot possibly comprehend all there is to know about God, but I feel like knowing whether God is triune or singular is pretty important and something we must understand.* I mean, even the Bible stated Jesus came so that we can know God. We are the Bride of Christ after all, and who else knows a husband better than his own wife?




Hence, the reason He is a mystery.  We will never know it all...only God.  Well, I know Him to be.  How?  I just do.  I accept it.  And since He is infinitely mysterious and above my created humanity, I accept I'll never know it all about Him.  I dunno...that's how it is for me.  

In the past, He is "I am."  That's where "HaShem" or "The Name" comes from.  Did they know all about Him?  Absolutely not.  Yet, they honored Him.  I guess that the way it is.  Shrugs.  I mean, for that matter, how can you even prove God exists at all...or any of us?


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## SND411 (Aug 17, 2010)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> Well, people who are raised around christians, maybe raised from christians and don't know that Jesus is God???  Same thing.  We only need put ourselves into that situation and time-span.  God has no physical body...and for many people, this was the issue.  Some of the learned leaders in the law and Torah knew He was Messiah.
> 
> I don't believe He's addressing Himself when He says, "The Father."  He said He wasn't greater than the Father.  But one reason for all the miracles and fulfillment of the prophecies (and some believe they haven't all been fulfilled) was to demonstrate His Divinity.  But it still leads me to ask you what about the Trinity doctrine you believe to be false?  Do you believe there is the Son, Father, Holy Spirit?



I believe He stated the Father is greater than Him because He humbled Himself when He took on the likeness of humanity; as the Bible states He "emptied Himself."

I believe there is the Son, The Father, and the Holy Spirit are all Jesus. 
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a Child is born,    
      Unto us a Son is given;  
      And the government will be upon His shoulder.  
      And His name will be called  
      Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,  
      Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.  

Jesus is called the Prince of Peace. 
The Holy Spirit is called the Counselor
The Father is called Everlasting. 

Yet this verse describes a being called all these things, in the singular.


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## Guitarhero (Aug 17, 2010)

What denomination is that???  Interested in knowing.


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## SND411 (Aug 17, 2010)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> What denomination is that???  Interested in knowing.



You mean my beliefs? Oh, it's no denomination. LOL! It is just what I have personally sort of gathered from reading the Bible. Yet at the same time, I can see how the Trinity fits in with the Bible/biblical verses. Sometimes I believe in the Trinity. 

At least the most important thing is to practice what Christ taught and have faith in the end.


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## Guitarhero (Aug 17, 2010)

SND411 said:


> You mean my beliefs? Oh, it's no denomination. LOL! It is just what I have personally sort of gathered from reading the Bible. Yet at the same time, I can see how the Trinity fits in with the Bible/biblical verses. Sometimes I believe in the Trinity.
> 
> At least the most important thing is to practice what Christ taught and have faith in the end.




LOL.  I was ready to say, "xyz denomination believes xyz" and know that I heard it from the original source .  Hey, I'd rather hear things that way than hearsay theology lol then I'd be able to know what I was talking about.


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## Poohbear (Aug 18, 2010)

SND411 said:


> I always get this response from people when I discuss the Trinity. *The thing is, I want to know WHO I am worshiping and praying to. Some people tell me not to pray to Jesus but to God the Father. If they are both God, what difference does it make.* Even Stephen prayed to Jesus. I do not want to view God as a being with a split personality. I understand that we are human beings with finite minds that cannot possibly comprehend all there is to know about God, but I feel like knowing whether God is triune or singular is pretty important and something we must understand. I mean, even the Bible stated Jesus came so that we can know God. We are the Bride of Christ after all, and who else knows a husband better than his own wife?


 Wow! I've wondered this exact same thing!!! Why can't it just be that I'm praying to God alone?

People will say pray in the name of Jesus, and he'll take your concerns to God. Some people will say that Jesus is the way/connection between us and God. But there's also people that say that the Holy Spirit will act as an intercessor for you when praying to God....And people will say many more different variations of these statements.


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## Crown (Aug 18, 2010)

My beliefs are slightly different.
I don’t believe in a trinity. 
I don’t believe in : the Son only.

Allow me to illustrate what I am saying with the verse 28 of Acts 17 :
Act. 17 28 for in Him we *live* and *move* and have our *being*, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.

It is just an illustration :
Live                                                     + move                         = being
Life (breath of life from the Father)       + movement (a body)    = living soul
Am I three or just one? I think I am one person.

But the Life is greater than the body or the Word (my word comes from me and represents me, reveals me, but I am greater than my word) :

Prov. 30 3 I neither learned wisdom Nor have knowledge of the Holy One. 4 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? *What is His name, and what is His Son’s name*, If you know?

1Cor. 15 23 … Christ the firstfruits, afterward those _who are_ Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then _comes_ the end, *when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father*, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy _that_ will be destroyed _is_ death. 27 For _“He has put all things under His feet.”_ But when He says “all things are put under _Him,_” *it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted*. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, *then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all*.

Rev. 1 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, *which God gave Him*…


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## Crown (Aug 18, 2010)

For me, He is not one God with 3 heads or 3 persons.
  He is the same One and Eternal : YHUH (YHWH)
  He is Spirit, the Father.
  The Holy Spirit is not a person : He is the Spirit of God in action.
  The Father is not a person, He is Spirit, eternal, immortal and invisible.
  1Tim. 1 17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, *invisible*, to God who alone is wise, _be_ honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

  The Father(The invisible Spirit) made a flesh (human body), dwells in it to save us : the Son who reveals the Father. 
  The Father is greater because the Son is the Spirit of the Father in a human body.
  The Son is the only person who reveals the Father because His Spirit dwells fully in Him.
  Col. 1 15 *He is the image of the invisible God*, the firstborn over all creation.
  1Tim.2 5 For _there is_ *one God and one Mediator between God and men*, _the_ Man Christ Jesus

  The set apart Spirit (Holy Spirit or Ruach HaKodesh) is the Spirit of the Father in the Son, and He knows our human weakness. 
  Jn. 14 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

  Rom. 8 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but  *the Spirit Himself makes intercession* for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.


  *If the Father is a person and the Holy Spirit is another person, the Son has 2 personal fathers!!! 
  Lu. 35 And the angel answered and said to her, “*The Holy Spirit will come upon you*, and *the power of the Highest will overshadow you*; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born *will be called the Son of God*.

  *The Son is a person. If the Holy Spirit is another person, those who believe in the Son have 2 persons in them!!! 
  Jn. 14 20 At that day you will know that I _am_ in My Father, and you in Me, *and I in you*.

 Jn. 20 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on _them,_ and said to them, “*Receive the Holy Spirit*.


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## Guitarhero (Aug 18, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Wow! I've wondered this exact same thing!!! Why can't it just be that I'm praying to God alone?
> 
> People will say pray in the name of Jesus, and he'll take your concerns to God. S*ome people will say that Jesus is the way/connection between us and God.* But there's also people that say that the Holy Spirit will act as an intercessor for you when praying to God....And people will say many more different variations of these statements.



He Himself told us that.  Shrugs. ???  Because Elohim works in union with Himself and all His Persons?  Shrugs?  

In general:


Person:  individual and distinct?  If not, why not?  Is God a mystery and easily understood by man?  If we knew the mind and all mysteries of God, wouldn't that make us Him?  Don't laugh, I'm serious.  


Also, can people please state their denominations or lack thereof?  Are these doctrines you have been taught according to your church or is this your own interpretation based upon your individual understanding?  It would help to explain a bit.


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## SND411 (Aug 18, 2010)

Crown said:


> The Father(The invisible Spirit) made a flesh (human body), dwells in it to save us : the Son who reveals the Father.
> The Father is greater because the Son is the Spirit of the Father in a human body.
> The Son is the only person who reveals the Father because His Spirit dwells fully in Him.



This sums up what I believe. 

And I also do not believe in denominations.


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## Sharpened (Aug 18, 2010)

SND411 said:


> And I also do not believe in denominations.


A lot of problems would be solved if we ask Our Father directly and sincerely and wait (plus _accept_) the answer. God only has two categories of people: His children and the ones who are not.


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## Guitarhero (Aug 18, 2010)

Nymphe said:


> A lot of problems would be solved if we ask Our Father directly and sincerely and wait (plus _accept_) the answer. God only has two categories of people: His children and the ones who are not.



Nymphe,

If one does that, how will one know that God is actually responding?  How will you truly know it?


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## SND411 (Aug 18, 2010)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> Nymphe,
> 
> If one does that, how will one know that God is actually responding?  How will you truly know it?



This is true. I mean, most people who start yet another denomination claim it was God Himself who told them to. And although we hate to admit it, many times people will claim that "God told me the answer" when it was what they already had in mind.


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## Guitarhero (Aug 18, 2010)

Even in my own faith/religion, it's by consensus but that's a long, looooong process.  But ultimately, you have to come to the individual conclusion that what you're taught is true and that you not only believe, but are bound by it.  And you go to the same book for the answer and it's based upon those councils who base the councils on the scripture, coming to a uniformity.  Anywhere I go in the world (of course, individual ppl can say whatever), it's the same service with the basic same elements of the faith that are unchanging, no matter the culture but I go to a book that governs the Church per se ...explaining the meaning...much like the Mishnah/Gemara of the Talmud for Judaism.  I'm just trying to explain how my view differs and why sometimes I don't comprehend.  It's my search and desire to understand how others come to their truth.   I guess it's the same thing because you sometimes wonder if you do have the best, most complete answer, esp. when there is a shift lol.  I eveb wonder just how much we'll know in heaven.


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## Sharpened (Aug 18, 2010)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> Nymphe,
> 
> If one does that, how will one know that God is actually responding?  How will you truly know it?


1) The Holy Spirit, 2) the Bible, and 3) faith (trust in His will). As to what form it comes in, that is His choice. You can always ask for multiple confirmations afterward, but without those three things, you get 3900 _leavenings_ we see today (Matthew 16:6, Matthew 16:12, Mark 8:15, 1 Corinthians 5:6, Galatians 5:9).


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## Sharpened (Aug 18, 2010)

SND411 said:


> This is true. I mean, most people who start yet another denomination claim it was God Himself who told them to. And although we hate to admit it, many times people will claim that "God told me the answer" when it was what they already had in mind.


No matter how spiritually mature we get, we should still go to Him as a child seeking knowledge and approval. We in the flesh tend to get distracted by our position and/or knowledge over others. Jesus warned us about that (Matthew 11:11, Matthew 20:25-27, Mark 10:42-44, Luke 7:28).


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## Guitarhero (Aug 18, 2010)

Nymphe said:


> 1) The Holy Spirit, 2) the Bible, and 3) faith (trust in His will). As to what form it comes in, that is His choice. *You can always ask for multiple confirmations afterward, but without those three things, you get 3900 leavenings we see today* (Matthew 16:6, Matthew 16:12, Mark 8:15, 1 Corinthians 5:6, Galatians 5:9).



I listed the scriptures you provided below.  Please know that my questions are sincere.  But how they illustrate the question, not clear.  So, to the question again and I'll rephrase it, if I read something in scripture but do not know what it's talking about or if I look at a situation and wonder what the right thing is to do or believe is and I rely upon faith that 1)He'll tell me and 2) the Holy Spirit will inspire me to truth personally and individually (and I know that scripture can directly confirm many things..say, crime), how will I know that I have  received that confirmation according to how you know (or anyone else for that matter) you have received a truthful unerring confirmation?  You obviously don't rely upon a denomination to set it in stone for you but worship in small groups (well, either you or another...maybe I'm confusing you two).  So, ....what....how...???

Do you ask for some specific one or is it a feeling etc. that you sense?  Series of events?  Some who claim to have the Holy Spirit confirm for them have been proven later on to have been deceived.   There are many t.v. evangelists that can be named but I won't.  That's my question.  

Leavenings?  Hopefully, that's not some slightly veiled accusation..never my intent to draw one.  As I said, I'm sincere in my questioning and my purpose is comprehension of others, not to convert out from my faith nor to draw others to mine.  I want to know that other viewpoint and to know that I learned it because I heard it from the source.  I hate third-party theology.  Incidentally, in past, I thought I had come to know many truths but only to find later that they were not - not whole truths.  So, was God in that or was He not?   It was refined and led to another path.  I could have sworn that God told me directly in my feeling, inside...but only to find that, later, it was not the full truth or not the truth at all.  See what I mean?  I know we all have to come to a faith or conclusion that it is true about God but the process is my concern.


Sigh, and the more I edit to make this very "succinct" (yeah, right lol), it's growing bigger.  Sorry about that...but this very issue is stated on this list often and no one has truly explained just how it works for them.


*Luke 6:12-16*

Listen to this passage
View commentary related to this passage

*The Twelve Apostles *

 12One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God. 13When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: 14Simon (whom he named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, 15Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, 16Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

*Mark 8:15 (New International Version)*

   15"Be careful," Jesus warned them. "Watch out for the yeast of the Pharisees and that of Herod."

*1 Corinthians 5:6 (New International Version)*


 6Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough?



*Galatians 5:9 (New International Version)*

   9"A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough."


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## Guitarhero (Aug 18, 2010)

Second part (sorry lol)

And so, with SND, Poohbear's and Crown's unbelief in the Trinity concept and my belief in it since it was what was presented to me as the truth, we come to our own conclusions...even with me though I just agreed.  At some point, I have to feel somehow inwardly that it is truth.  But how would one know absolutely that it's the Holy Spirit? And it's all like a gamble until the end that we believed and lived it to be true, that we were on the right path all along, even though each of our paths are different.


Some will say, "scripture."  But if the scripture is interpreted differently...???  What is there are many levels of meanings?  Do not murder, yet a mother needs an abortion to preserve her life?  Remember the discussion about scripture calling us to meet as a community in worship?  Some said that's not a physical church building, some say it's not necessarily a spiritual little group because some believe they don't have to at all, just go it alone by themselves.  Do their lives change for the better as fruit and evidence?  If yes, then like that.


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## Poohbear (Aug 19, 2010)

@ Crown...  interesting yet confusing post at the same time. 




Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> He Himself told us that. Shrugs. ??? Because Elohim works in union with Himself and all His Persons? Shrugs?
> 
> In general:
> 
> ...


 
You're right. Jesus does say, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: NO MAN cometh unto the Father BUT BY ME." in John 14:6...

Good question. After reflecting on this concept of trinity, it almost has me thinking we all make up God if Christ and the Holy Spirit dwells in us and the Father breathed life into us...

I grew up in the Baptist denomination of "church", but I no longer associate myself with denominations.


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## SND411 (Aug 19, 2010)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> Second part (sorry lol)
> 
> And so, with SND, Poohbear's and Crown's unbelief in the Trinity concept and my belief in it since it was what was presented to me as the truth, we come to our own conclusions...even with me though I just agreed.  At some point, I have to feel somehow inwardly that it is truth.  But how would one know absolutely that it's the Holy Spirit? And it's all like a gamble until the end that we believed and lived it to be true, that we were on the right path all along, even though each of our paths are different.
> 
> ...



What about comparing Scripture with Scripture. Many truths come out of the Bible by comparing one truth in light of the entire WORD.


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## Poohbear (Aug 19, 2010)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> Second part (sorry lol)
> 
> And so, with SND, *Poohbear's* and Crown's *unbelief* in the Trinity concept and my belief in it since it was what was presented to me as the truth, we come to our own conclusions...even with me though I just agreed. At some point, I have to feel somehow inwardly that it is truth. But how would one know absolutely that it's the Holy Spirit? And it's all like a gamble until the end that we believed and lived it to be true, that we were on the right path all along, even though each of our paths are different.
> 
> ...


I didn't say I didn't believe in trinity. I actually have been taught to believe in it and was trying to explain how it was taught to me. 

I remember a few years ago posting John 1:1-14 as a scripture to support trinity, however, another poster said she saw this same scripture as not supporting the trinity concept.  She didn't believe Jesus was God. She was of the Oneness Pentacostal denomination.


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## Guitarhero (Aug 19, 2010)

SND411 said:


> What about comparing Scripture with Scripture. Many truths come out of the Bible by comparing one truth in light of the entire WORD.




Surely, but ultimately, it's the individual's interpretation, no?


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## Galadriel (Aug 19, 2010)

Just wanted to pop in and say hello! Some of you I haven't seen posting in a while. Have a great day!


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## Sharpened (Aug 29, 2010)

*Why Can't We?

*There is one question I am asked most often, one question that tops the  list each and every time, and that question is, ‘what has the Lord been  showing you lately?’ In recent years, I have made it a habit, to answer  this question with the same exact question, and the response I get  varies from a shrug of the shoulders, to a rolling of the eyes, to a  look of indignation and the ever present, ‘what do you mean? You’re the  one that the Lord shows things to.’ 

I believe one of the greatest setbacks in today’s Christian thinking, is  that God speaks only to a select few, or works only through a select  few. God speaks to all of us, in greater or lesser measure, and He works  through all whose vessels are clean, and who are willing to submit  themselves to His authority. We have been living in the land of  spiritual surrogacy for so long, that we’ve assigned others to look  after all of our spiritual needs. If we need prayer, we have prayer  warriors we can go to and ask to pray for us. If we desire understanding  of a certain Biblical passage, we have theologians who are eager to  offer their interpretation. If we desire a word from the Lord, there’s  someone for that too, and all it takes is a phone call or a short drive  to see what the Lord is saying. When we practice spiritual surrogacy,  when we outsource our spiritual needs to others, it cuts down on the  need for an intimate and personal relationship, it cuts down on the  hours we ought to have spent on our knees, in prayer, and in reading the  Word, but even though it saves time, it is by no means beneficial for  our spiritual man.

We read the Word of God, we read of the miracles, we read of the power,  we read of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, then by simply juxtaposing the  early church to today’s modern church, one question inevitably leaps  out: ‘Why aren’t we seeing these things today? Why can’t we do what they  did?’ 

Most believers choose to gloss over this all important question, because  it takes a humble heart and a painful honesty to acknowledge that men  and women two thousand years ago were closer to God, saw more of the  power of God, and experienced more of the presence of God than we are in  our modern age. The ‘can do’ attitude has ensconced itself upon the  throne of many believers’ hearts, and if they can’t do something, well  it’s because it can’t be done. 

‘Nope, God doesn’t do that anymore. Because He’s not doing it through  me, because I am not seeing miracles, because I do not know the power of  the Holy Spirit, the logical conclusion is that they no longer exist.  Surely if they existed, I would be the first in line, asking for a  double portion. It can’t be me, it couldn’t be me. My self esteem is tip  top, and my positive attitude has never been more positive. Ergo, scrap  the book of Acts, blot out all the passages referring to healings,  miracles, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and the repeated assertion by  none other than Christ Jesus that the Comforter would be with us until  the end of time, because if I’m not experiencing it, than no one on the  face of the earth is.’ 

It takes a certain kind of narcissistic pride, and a helping of  shameless arrogance to conclude that if I am not experiencing something,  than it is impossible for anyone else to. 

‘We’re the American church dear sir! We are the fountainhead of  newfangled doctrine, progressive theology, humanistic dogma, surely if  anyone in the world were to know the fullness of the power of God, it  would be us. Why would God choose some poverty stricken third world  folks, who aren’t even allowed to practice their faith in their country,  who are beaten and tortured, persecuted and despised? They don’t have  the resources to get the message out; they don’t have the know-how to run  a successful publicity campaign, and don’t even get me started on  interfaith relations and tolerance toward opposing views. We are the  logical choice to experience the fullness of God’s power, to use it,  abuse it, monetize it and profit from it, and since we are not, well  then it just doesn’t exist anymore. That stuff about God choosing the  foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and the weak  things of the world to put to shame the mighty, well that’s just  hyperbole.’ 

The lack of power in the house of God is obvious to one and all, as is  the lack of character in the lives of some who call themselves children  of God. These two things are interconnected, and one of the reasons we  are not seeing the power of God, is because we are lacking the requisite  purity, the requisite righteousness that is demanded of those who would  be used of Him. 

Another reason the power of God is absent from many of today’s churches,  another reason why we can’t do what the primary church did is because  we are lacking that true, living and abiding faith that God requires of  us. Living faith is not about what I can do, but about what He can do.  Once we’ve bought into the notion that we can do it, we can manufacture  it, and we can make it happen, we’ve already lost out on any chance of  seeing the true power of God. 

If all things are possible to those who believe, then the painful truth  is that we are not seeing the power of God manifest in our churches  because we do not believe. Saving faith brings salvation by way of the  cross, but living by faith and in faith brings the power of God by way  of the Holy Spirit. 

As we go down the list of the reasons we are not seeing the power of God  in today’s churches, I would be remiss if I did not include the lack of  a prayer life. From individuals, to families to entire congregations we  have tried to replace prayer with other activities, be they spiritual  or otherwise, ignoring the fact that there can be no replacing prayer in  the life of a believer. If Jesus couldn’t find something to replace  prayer with, if the Son of God would go off on His own and pray for  hours on end, what pray tell makes us more special, more spiritual, and  more knowledgeable that we can so flippantly dismiss prayer as nothing  more than a waste of time?

Jesus didn’t teach His disciples homiletics, He did not teach His  disciples hermeneutics, He did not teach His disciples apologetics,  inflection, cadence, or speech delivery. Jesus taught His disciples how  to pray!

We do not see the power of God in the churches today, because the  churches have actively and successfully abolished and done away with  prayer. Add to the absence of prayer the absence of fasting as well, and  the reasons we are not seeing the power of God manifesting itself in  the churches are evident to all. 

There are certain practices in our Christian walk that are  indispensable. Having a prayer life and fasting are two of those  indispensable things. When Jesus preached His sermon on the mount, He  did not begin it by saying, ‘if you pray, or if you fast’ but rather,  ‘when you pray, go into your room and when you have shut the door pray  to your Father who is in the secret place, and when you fast do not be  like the hypocrites, with a sad countenance.’ 

It was not ‘if’ it was ‘when’! 

The reason we are not seeing the power of God as the primary church did  is not because it is no longer available to us, but rather because we  are not doing what is required of us in order to experience it. The  primary church was formed in an atmosphere of prayer and fasting, in an  atmosphere of dependency upon God and righteousness. It was then than  the fullness of the power of the Holy Spirit came upon them, it was then  that they went everywhere preaching the Word and performing miracles. 

Throughout the Word, whether it be individuals or churches, from the  church of Antioch, to Paul, to Jesus Himself, we see the running themes  of prayer, fasting, purity of heart and dependency upon God. We cannot  hope to experience the power of God today, unless we return to the  selfsame practices, the selfsame goal, and the selfsame hunger for God  as the primary church. 

God is not to blame for the impotence that is running rampant in today’s  churches. God is not to blame for the powerlessness that is evident in  today’s congregations. God is the same, yesterday, today and forevermore  and if we must place blame on someone, if we must lay the burden of our  impotence and powerlessness at someone’s feet, than we need look no  further than the nearest mirror. 

With love in Christ, 
Michael Boldea Jr.


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## LatterGlory (Aug 30, 2010)

Deu 6:4
(4)  Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Joh 10:30
(30)  I and my Father are one.

1Jn 5:7
(7)  For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Joh 1:1&14
(1)  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(14)  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Joh 14:9
(9)  Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? *he that hath seen me hath seen the Father*; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

1Ti 3:16
(16)  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


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## blazingthru (Aug 31, 2010)

My two cents,  I believe what the bible says. The father, son and holy spirit or one. but have different parts. jesus is God in the flesh.  God is a spirit as is the holy spirit but each play a important role. I pray to the father in Jesus name acknowledging that without jesus there is no hope. Jesus is my access to the thrown. Amen... As for scriptures. The bible is designed for research. Each week I take notes and go home and study them I love, love, love my church and my pastor because I get tons of scriptures to explain a thing. Some things are exact that what it says and some things you must do research to find the meaning.  Like Jacob. why did God Change his name.  Why does God say he will give all of us that are saved and called to his purpose a new name.  Well lets see what is the character of Jacob, then look at his mother and her family line. the Issiac and his.  Liars.. Oh yeah, conniving. Swindler. But God change his name because he was not those things anymore.  However if you continue to read in the bible when Jacob became a dead man, because he never could get over the "death" of Joseph. How is name was Jacob.  Not Isreal. it was Jacob.  When he learned that his son was alive, He came alive again.  He understood all that God was doing and his name became Isreal. right now I am saying praises to God.  Because we dont always understand what God is doing in our life and it doesn't always make sense but if we keep on the path that he has set before us we will finally get to see what it was all worth.  THats the fun part. sitting down and going over the scriptures, underlining a passage that gives you some difficulty.  Praying first. Then getting your research on.  You will find that God is so awesome and so marvelous and his plan is the only plan. Well I can go on and on. but I loved the story of Jacob. Why didn't God tell Jacob, Joseph was alive?  I could shout on this part alone.


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## Crown (Sep 1, 2010)

blazingthru said:


> My two cents,  I believe what the bible says. The father, son and holy spirit or one. but have different parts. jesus is God in the flesh.  God is a spirit as is the holy spirit but each play a important role. I pray to the father in Jesus name acknowledging that without jesus there is no hope. Jesus is my access to the thrown. Amen... As for scriptures. *The bible is designed for research.* Each week I take notes and go home and study them I love, love, love my church and my pastor because I get tons of scriptures to explain a thing. Some things are exact that what it says and some things you must do research to find the meaning. * Like Jacob. why did God Change his name.*  Why does God say he will give all of us that are saved and called to his purpose a new name.  Well lets see what is the character of Jacob, then look at his mother and her family line. the Issiac and his.  Liars.. Oh yeah, conniving. Swindler. But God change his name because he was not those things anymore.  *However if you continue to read in the bible when Jacob became a dead man, because he never could get over the "death" of Joseph. How is name was Jacob.  Not Isreal. it was Jacob.  When he learned that his son was alive, He came alive again.  He understood all that God was doing and his name became Isreal.* right now I am saying praises to God.  Because we dont always understand what God is doing in our life and it doesn't always make sense but if we keep on the path that he has set before us we will finally get to see what it was all worth.  THats the fun part. sitting down and going over the scriptures, underlining a passage that gives you some difficulty.  Praying first. Then getting your research on.  You will find that God is so awesome and so marvelous and his plan is the only plan. Well I can go on and on. but I loved the story of Jacob. Why didn't God tell Jacob, Joseph was alive?  I could shout on this part alone.


 
Blazingthru, are you saying the Father has changed the name Jacob for Israel after Jacob knew his son Joseph was alive? Is it in another book?
When reading the Scriptures, the name has been changed many years before the episode of Joseph in Egypt.

 Gen. 32.24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 32.25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 32.26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 32.27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 32.28 *And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel*: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
 
I read Israel means :
"God wrestler", "He has striven with God (El)" or "He has been saved by God"... or what is written in Gen. 32:28


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## Crown (Sep 1, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> @ Crown...  interesting yet *confusing post* at the same time.
> ...



Please, help me understand why and which one is confusing.
For me the doctrine _trinity_ (by the way, First Concil of Nicaea, more than 300 years after the Messiah) is confusing.


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## Poohbear (Oct 14, 2010)

Crown said:


> Please, help me understand why and which one is confusing.
> For me the doctrine _trinity_ (by the way, First Concil of Nicaea, more than 300 years after the Messiah) is confusing.


 
These two statements of yours made me confused:



			
				Crown said:
			
		

> *If the Father is a person and the Holy Spirit is another person, the Son has 2 personal fathers!!!
> 
> *The Son is a person. If the Holy Spirit is another person, those who believe in the Son have 2 persons in them!!!



Can you explain what you mean by those statements? I've never seen the Holy Spirit referred to as the father of the Son. I've only seen The Father as the father of the Son... 

And I also wonder if The Son and The Holy Spirit dwells in believers, what about The Father? Does The Father dwell in believers as well?

And what is the difference between The Council of Nicea's doctrine of Trinity and the Bible's concept of Trinity? Wouldn't they be the same since the Council of Nicea are the ones who canonized the Bible anyway?


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## Crown (Oct 14, 2010)

Mat. 1.20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that *which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost*.
 Lu. 1.34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 1.35 And the angel answered and said unto her, *The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee*: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.



Poohbear said:


> These two statements of yours made me confused:
> Can you explain what you mean by those statements? I've never seen the Holy Spirit referred to as the father of the Son. I've only seen The Father as the father of the Son...






Poohbear said:


> And I also wonder if The Son and The Holy Spirit dwells in believers, what about The Father? Does The Father dwell in believers as well?
> 
> And what is the difference between The Council of Nicea's doctrine of Trinity and the Bible's concept of Trinity? Wouldn't they be the same since the Council of Nicea are the ones who canonized the Bible anyway?


The Trinity is a manmade concept.
 There is NO Bible’s concept of Trinity!!!

 The Father is SPIRIT and ONE.
 The Holy Spirit is the expressed (manifested) Spirit of the Father.
 The Son is the expressed (manifested) Image (in a body) of the Father.

 Yes, the Father is greater than His expression/manifestation (not 1 god with 3 heads!!!).

 Is. 9.6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 The apostles understood very well the commandment in Mat. 28 :
 Mat. 28.18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 28.19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, *baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost*…

 And, filled with the Holy Spirit, they executed it :
 Act. 2.37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 2.38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and *be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ* for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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## Poohbear (Oct 14, 2010)

Crown said:


> Mat. 1.20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that *which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost*.
> Lu. 1.34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 1.35 And the angel answered and said unto her, *The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee*: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
> 
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for your explanation, Crown. 

I know Trinity is a man-made concept/doctrine and I know God is just ONE God, not 3 god heads.

So are you saying that The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost are all 3 expressions/manifestations of God? Not 3 different gods, correct? If so, then we are on the same page and this is is how I view God.

And a question about baptizing in the name of _____

There are Christians hung up over this issue as well. Some say to baptize in the name of Jesus Christ. Some say to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Which one? The Bible states both. Or is Jesus Christ considered "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost"?


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## makeupgirl (Oct 14, 2010)

The trinity does in fact exist among the Godhead and the mark of the trinity is all over the bible.  God in 3 persons, blessed trinity.  3 in 1.  3 different ministries, same God.   God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.  

God the Father's ministry was in the OT.  Jesus' ministry is in the gospels of Matt, Luke, Mark, and John.  In fact, John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word (God the Father), and the Word was with God (God the Holy Spirit), and the Word was God (God the Son).  In fact, John's gospel is letting us know that Jesus is God, in the flesh.  In John, Jesus also explained that he is going to prepare a place for us and will come back to receive us unto himself (John 14:2-3).  In this same chapter, Jesus advise the disciples that he is sending the Comforter.  

After Jesus ascended to Heaven to be at the right hand of the Father, 10 days later the Holy Spirit came and his ministry is still ongoing.  

Also, the hand of the trinity is in the very beginning, Gen 1-3 In the beginning, God (God the Father) created the heavens and the earths.  And the earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep and the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) moved upon the face of the waters.  And God said (Jesus aka God the Son, the Word) , let there be light and there was light.   

Another part, Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image.  (noticed words us, our, which of course would mean, more than one is working here)  This is not the first time or the last time either.

The tower of babel  - Gen 11:7

Jesus Baptism - Matt 3:16-17

Another point - 1 John 5: 6-9   vs. 7 especially " For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.  ***If this verse doesn't confirmed that the trinity is indeed not man made, I don't know what else to point out.  

There are other verses too.  But the point is, even though the word trinity is in the bible, the mark of the trinity is all over.  If you don't believe it, just ask the Holy Spirit for confirmation and for understanding to lead you to his truth.  

I think that topics like the trinity, the rapture (pre vs mid or post rapture), etc are always going to topics that will be debated until God calls his children home, then will be able to ask for real.  But until then, as for me, I believe in the trinity of God and I believe that we are pre-tribulation rapture.  OK back to work.


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## Crown (Oct 14, 2010)

There is a subtle difference : I don’t believe in what is called _Jesus only_.
 The Father is revealed in Jesus. In other words, Jesus is the revelation of the Father. But the Father is not a revelation of Jesus.
 The Father is not an expression/manifestation : HE IS GOD. He reveals Himself to _deal_ with mankind as Creator/Savior/Redeemer/Comforter.....



Poohbear said:


> Thanks for your explanation, Crown.
> 
> I know Trinity is a man-made concept/doctrine and I know God is just ONE God, not 3 god heads.
> 
> So are you saying that *The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost are all 3 expressions/manifestations of God*?





Poohbear said:


> Not 3 different gods, correct? Correct! If so, then we are on the same page and this is is how I view God.





Poohbear said:


> And a question about baptizing in the name of _____
> 
> There are Christians hung up over this issue as well. Some say to baptize in the name of Jesus Christ. Some say to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Which one? The Bible states both. Or is Jesus Christ considered "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost"?


The apostles did exactly what was ordered in Mat. 28:19.
 It is not an option : they baptize in the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit – Father, Son, Holy Spirit are not names - this is ONE Name (not 3) for the Father/Son/Holy Spirit : they understood what was the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit : This Name given for salvation.
 Do a search with baptize and you’ll see all were made in the name of Jesus Christ, the Lord Jesus, the Lord, Christ (Messiah).


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## Poohbear (Oct 14, 2010)

Thanks Crown for breaking it all down. Makes more sense!


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## divya (Oct 14, 2010)

> Since this was bumped....some of these opinions are definitely mainstream christianity.





Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> My church is mainstream...but then again...it's, well, you know...from which you all derive.  But #1...persevere until the end...reason there is confession, #2 (Jewish tradition...there are more than just one meaning/sides to it, many levels of meaning), #4 ...many orthodox/catholic do not eat pork around the world and we don't believe the 10 Commandments are obsolete...linking to confession, #5...definitely mainstream because you can't get to heaven solely by believing you must be good...you actually have to follow the path.  That's why we have confession.  And of course, nobody says, "are you saved?"  Shrugs.
> 
> So, it depends upon whom you ask.  Most people don't think of catholicism and orthodoxy to be mainstream when they are they largest and original church (yes, I know the first century church...referring to the eucharist and it's true meaning which is what Christ Himself instituted and it's been unchanged eversince).


 
Maybe my post should be clarified further. Catholicism and orthodoxy are definitely mainstream in my belief, as it is the largest. Ok here goes...

#1 The one saved always saved pervades much of Christianity, making it a mainstream belief. 
#2 _As stated_, is not held by Catholicism nor most of Christianity, making it non-mainstream. 
#3 The vast majority of Christianity recognizes 9, not 10 Commandments in practice.  They do not keep the seventh-day Sabbath.  
#4 Most of Christianity believes Old Testament laws are generally not applicable. The health laws do not encompass only pork. It reaches beyond that. 
#5 Most Christian branches do not teaches that Muslims, Hindus and others can be saved. It is non-mainstream to believe otherwise.

Hopefully that makes the post a little clearer now.


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## Poohbear (Oct 15, 2010)

Over the past few months, I feel like God is revealing to me something different than what mainstream Christianity teaches and believes.  When I read the Bible, I am finding that holiness is something that so many "Christians" are putting at the bottom of their priorities for Christian living.  So many Christians think as long as you believe in Jesus, you are saved no matter what you do. I just can't see that. I feel like believing requires action, not just empty words.  If you truly believe Jesus died on the cross for your sins, you would not yield to sin any longer. So many Christians say "once saved, always saved" and God forgives us over and over and over for sin. Really? It doesn't make sense when God speaks strongly against sin in the Bible. Then people want to make excuses for their sin by saying "Christians don't continue to sin" or "Christians sin less than before" or "Christians feel remorse for their sins" or "Christians don't willfully sin"... well how can you NOT willfully sin when you have a clear full knowledge of what you're doing is wrong?  Willfull sin is when you KNOW it's wrong and do it anyway. It would be different if you did not know it was wrong, but once it's revealed to you as being wrong, you should stop if you truly believe in Jesus.  I know what I'm saying is not mainstream, and it's something I've mentioned before in the Christian forum so many times. It's just been bothering me. Otherwise, if living righteous and holy isn't important for being saved, then I guess we all going to Heaven to live with God, believer or not, sinner or not.


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## Laela (Oct 20, 2010)

Pooh, this is a timely Word. It is possible to live a life free of sin, the only way being to always be in God's Presence (Psalms 91:1)   This puts us in a position to always be able to 'resist temptation' because we are in tuned with the Holy Spirit. If we don't resist, we CHOOSE to sin and disobey the Holy Spirit...you're right.  I've learned the worse deception is self-deception, so it's possible sinners are more honest than Believers in this capacity. [ I minister to myself here   ]

Let me also repeat this: The Blood of Jesus is not for us to use as an excuse to *cover up* sin but rather the place we can exist, to live a sin-free life. ... that's the Secret Place of the Most High, where sin _cannot _exist! IOW, the Blood of Jesus had paved the way for holiness. I see that you miss this when I stated it the first time, but that's OK.   

Here's a great article that I find to be nothing but Truth!  

A Call to Holiness







Poohbear said:


> Over the past few months, I feel like God is revealing to me something different than what mainstream Christianity teaches and believes.  When I read the Bible, I am finding that holiness is something that so many "Christians" are putting at the bottom of their priorities for Christian living.  So many Christians think as long as you believe in Jesus, you are saved no matter what you do. I just can't see that. I feel like believing requires action, not just empty words.  If you truly believe Jesus died on the cross for your sins, you would not yield to sin any longer. So many Christians say "once saved, always saved" and God forgives us over and over and over for sin. Really? It doesn't make sense when God speaks strongly against sin in the Bible. Then people want to make excuses for their sin by saying "Christians don't continue to sin" or "Christians sin less than before" or "Christians feel remorse for their sins" or "Christians don't willfully sin"... well how can you NOT willfully sin when you have a clear full knowledge of what you're doing is wrong?  Willfull sin is when you KNOW it's wrong and do it anyway. It would be different if you did not know it was wrong, but once it's revealed to you as being wrong, you should stop if you truly believe in Jesus.  I know what I'm saying is not mainstream, and it's something I've mentioned before in the Christian forum so many times. It's just been bothering me. Otherwise, if living righteous and holy isn't important for being saved, then I guess we all going to Heaven to live with God, believer or not, sinner or not.


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## Poohbear (Oct 20, 2010)

Laela said:


> Pooh, this is a timely Word. It is possible to live a life free of sin, the only way being to always be in God's Presence (Psalms 91:1)   This puts us in a position to always be able to 'resist temptation' because we are in tuned with the Holy Spirit. If we don't resist, we CHOOSE to sin and disobey the Holy Spirit...you're right.  I've learned the worse deception is self-deception, so it's possible sinners are more honest than Believers in this capacity. [ I minister to myself here   ]
> 
> Let me also repeat this: The Blood of Jesus is not for us to use as an excuse to *cover up* sin but rather the place we can exist, to live a sin-free life. ... that's the Secret Place of the Most High, where sin _cannot _exist! IOW, the Blood of Jesus had paved the way for holiness. I see that you miss this when I stated it the first time, but that's OK.
> 
> ...


Thanks for understanding.

The only thing I am worried about is that I still commit sin.  I worry about my salvation, and I wonder if I truly believe in Jesus for taking away my sins. From reading my Bible, it appears that I don't and that I may have had a false conversion. I think a lot of this has to do with what I have been taught over the years in the Baptist church. I may be seen as a relatively good person to the people in this world, but that's not good enough in God's sight. With saying this, I can see myself living without committing sin in the near future. I just need to keep diving into his Word and rightly divide what's right and what's wrong.

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Luke 1:37
For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Luke 18:27
And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1 Corinthians 3:19
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.


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## blazingthru (Oct 26, 2010)

Crown said:


> Blazingthru, are you saying the Father has changed the name Jacob for Israel after Jacob knew his son Joseph was alive? Is it in another book?
> When reading the Scriptures, the name has been changed many years before the episode of Joseph in Egypt.
> 
> Gen. 32.24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 32.25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 32.26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 32.27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 32.28 *And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel*: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
> ...


 No I am not saying that. He was given his name when he wrestle with the Angel yes, but he didn't accept the name in his heart, he was like a dead man inside his heart, he never got over the lost of Joseph. He wasn't living up to the name that the Lord had given him.


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## Crown (Oct 28, 2010)

blazingthru said:


> No I am not saying that. He was given his name when he wrestle with the Angel yes, but he didn't accept the name in his heart, he was like a dead man inside his heart, he never got over the lost of Joseph. He wasn't living up to the name that the Lord had given him.


 
Thanks Blazingthru to letting me know this interpretation! It's new for me.
I understand that Jacob was affected by the lost of Joseph.
What precisely makes you think that he did not accept the name Israel in is heart (quotes in the Bible please, I like to study)?


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## HomesteaderDreams (May 4, 2014)

Crown said:


> For me, He is not one God with 3 heads or 3 persons.
> He is the same One and Eternal : YHUH (YHWH)
> He is Spirit, the Father.
> The Holy Spirit is not a person : He is the Spirit of God in action.
> ...



 Shalum Acuthy. Finally, someone on LHCF who uses YHUH's name. Tudah for this truth.


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## disgtgyal (May 4, 2014)

Subbing, interesting read...


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## Shimmie (May 4, 2014)

hisboo911 said:


> Shalum Acuthy.
> 
> *Finally, someone on LHCF who uses YHUH's name*. Tudah for this truth.



hisboo911...  

 

Can you share what you mean by the comment bolded above?   Thanks in advance.


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## JaneBond007 (May 10, 2014)

^^^Messianic evangelical christianity...

YHWH  the tetragrammation of His Name that is not to be pronounced "yod, hey, vav, hey."  "tudah for this truth" meaning, "todah" or "thank you."

On an interesting note, some of out tribes call Him "Ye-ho-wah."  That's pretty interesting and it's ancient.


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