# Jouelzy - So Over the Natural Hair Community & Texture Discrimination 4c



## naturalmanenyc (May 4, 2014)

So Over the Natural Hair Community & Texture Discrimination

http://youtu.be/fggV0oVNhm8

*We Aren't All Curly, Girl
IS THE NATURAL HAIR MOVEMENT DISMISSING KINKS IN FAVOR OF CURLS?*

Walk down the aisles of any beauty supply store, scroll through the Twitter and Instagram feed, the Facebook pages and blogs dedicated to natural hair and it won’t take long to notice a particular schism among this "community" that claims to celebrate Black hair. It seems that a certain natural texture gets a lot more love than others.

In the 1970’s, the Afro reigned supreme. You could see ads, TV shows and movies showcasing the lustrous kink of highly textured hair. Somewhere in the late ‘80s, naturals became taboo, giving way to relaxers and drippy texturizers. Alas, the new millennium brought back our passion for natural hair with a roar---and a lot more curl.So, what happened to all that kink?

This current advent of Black women embracing their natural hair----and companies quick to pounce on the marketing value of this trend----has been accompanied by messaging that suggests that healthy natural hair equates to thick, shiny curls. Many women are empowered to go natural seeing the myriad of products that promise the perfectly defined twist out; the leave-in that gives your hair so much shine it has it’s own aura; and that through the powers of olive, coconut and grapeseed oil, their curls will be whipping in the wind with the perfect bounce. It’s a false reality that leads many into quick frustrations wondering why their hair won’t curl like all those girls on Instagram. 

The notion of “all curl everything” is so widely propagated throughout this natural hair movement---often leaves out our kinkier, and dare-I-say more common hair textures.

There’s a meme floating around that perfectly illustrates this phenomenon: “Tell people hair is natural still gets asked...but how do you make it curly?” How many natural sisters are attempting to get a look that is as foreign to their scalp as bone straight hair? And what does our fixation with curls say about us as a people?

When I was a sophomore in college, I went through some of this myself.  I had shaved my head (for the second time) because my golden blonde highlights had ripped my hair of any texture. And for all my time spent on the natural hair forums of the early 2000s, I couldn’t seem to get my edges to slick back, my ‘baby hair’ to slick down or my hair to naturally form into curls after co-washing. So I went up to my classmate Abby, who always had the perfect crop of small curls, her puff glided into slight waves when she gelled it up- and asked her “How do you get your hair to curl like that?” My exact words. She laughed, as did the other girls who were standing around, and dismissed me with a quick, “It’s my hair, from my scalp.” She wasn’t being mean and though I felt a bit stupid for being so clueless, I didn’t take offense, but I did go get a weave to forget about the frustrations I was experiencing because I really thought that healthy hair equaled curly hair. I know my experience is not uncommon. Many of us simply lack of awareness in the diversity of natural hair textures.

Some years later, I went on to start a YouTube channel to review weave in hopes of getting free hair. The free hair didn’t come fast enough and financial constraints forced me to deal with my real hair. By this time, it was 2009 and there was a lot more educational info about natural hair on the internet to help me through my journey. However, curly hair was still being pushed as the model of healthy natural hair, to the point of some natural hair product lines offering chemical treatments to loosen your curl pattern into a "wash & go" texture. My landlord saw my real hair and immediately urged me to look into one of these treatments, because that’s what she had been doing for the past two years and she felt it was the only way for her to maintain her natural hair. Something about putting a chemical in my hair to loosen the curl just sounded too much like a texturizer, and I had already had a very bad experience with that.

It was at this time that "hair typing" became a buzzing topic and when KimmayTube did a video breaking down the hair typing system, I had a major "Ah ha" moment.  No one had ever said to me that it was okay for my hair to be seen tightly coiled without a curl in sight. Every time I sat down in a salon chair, there were countless remarks about how nappy and coarse my hair was and about how much work it was going to take to make it look presentable. But here was this hair typing system that said my hair was right around the 4B/4C area and that I needed to be using the proper styling tools and products to keep my beautiful, Black, natural hair looking good. I could achieve curled styles, but not curly hair...and that's fine.

When I eventually doing YouTube tutorials on 4C natural hair, I didn’t feel like part of the natural hair community because I rarely saw anything close to representation of my hair texture. Tides have definitely turned as my audience has grown, and others have cultivated loyal followings by celebrating kinkier hair textures. But even as the blogs push out more content that celebrates coils and kinks,  you can still scroll go on Instagram and see curly hair largely being represented as the cremé de la cremé of the natural hair movement. My puff without the baby hairs or a French braid sans silky texture doesn't garner the same excitement as many of those images of bouncing curls that are touted as natural hair inspiration. There’s a host of women with textures similar to mine that opt to be ‘natural under their weave’ because mainstream aesthetics still don't include us. Women are still walking the beauty aisles of their local drug stores and picking up the newest gel or curling custard, hoping for the perfect spiral to bounce from their scalp, and still asking others "How did you get your hair to curl like that," without knowing that it isn't something they can or should aspire to achieve. 

As natural becomes the norm, let us celebrate the kinks and the curls alike as beautiful and kill this unhealthy hair hierarchy.

Jouelzy is a Black Hair Care vlogger who covers (4C) natural hair, wigs and weaves through her detailed YouTube videos.


Read more at EBONY http://www.ebony.com/style/natural-hair-now-we-arent-all-curly-girl-405#ixzz30l4IUfT7


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## MizzBFly (May 4, 2014)

With her article on the topic I bet more naturals that share the same texture will feel more celebrated. She's putting the word out, through her thoughts on paper she brings awareness which is what she hoping for baby steps....I'm not into the social media "look at me" phenom to notice one trend over the other but even still, I would still do me proudly which I know she does so let's K.I.M  (smiles)


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## Pompous Blue (May 4, 2014)

Very good article and very good YT videol. I agree with her. 

The discrimination even exists on this board. 

I'm a natural 4C and found it hard to get recommendations for products that will work on my hair and styling options. Found plenty of recommendations for DH's hair; he's Type 3.

I was like her; confused about the talk of curly-haired girls....laying down edges, wash 'n gos....what is that?

But I found my way and didn't let the promotion of Type 3 hair as the ideal hair deter me from achieving my goal of going natural and staying that way.

I'm looking forward to her video on all of the new vitamins that have come out and being promoted to AA women.

I hope the conversation continues......


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## overtherainbow (May 4, 2014)

Wow, this article is way better than her accompanying video.  In the video, she sounded bitter and I didn't like the way she called out MiniMarley for getting more views than her. IMO there was a better way to lay down her argument instead of saying point blank people don't watch my videos because my hair is kinky.   Tell that to CharyJay and Naptural.
However her article speaks the truth about texture discrimination and how the kinkier, Z-shaped 4's are not well represented on a commercial level.  And when a product is marketed towards these hair types, it is for "curl elongation" and "anti shrinkage" purposes.  I love that she is bringing more attention to this growing problem.


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## 1BalancedBeauty (May 4, 2014)

Great article.


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## DarkJoy (May 4, 2014)

Yes, I like gritty and to the point but her video was... Off putting.

She is right tho. 2 years ago I couldn't find truly nappy vloggers. All the touted gurus were type 3s. It's gotten much better this last 12 months and I am mighty grateful


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## naturalmanenyc (May 4, 2014)

I completely agree with her that Type 4 hair videos don't get as much love as videos with looser textures.  

My Wash & Go video views as compared to my straightening videos is drastic. 2,000 - 3,000 views versus Keratin straightening at over 100,000 and 330,000 views. 

My Wash & Go videos on type 4 hair 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMWwuqs4xm0 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1U0Ijh_Iamc 

versus my Keratin Straightening videos 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZorInGU3qE  and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpO-vWt3a0k

I don't blame the companies.  They put out products that they believe people want to buy based on market research.  The problem is the consumer.  The "good hair" versus "bad hair" belief system is alive and well even in the natural hair community.  I think that a lot of naturals are unfortunately chasing a type 3 curly hair ideal.


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## prettybyrd (May 4, 2014)

My BFF and I went natural at 20.  We're now 36.  When we went natural the "movement" of black women wearing natural hair was gaining more and more steam.  I remember going to an open forum back then where women were talking about how curly hair was being preferred over kinky hair in the "natural hair movement".  I am so sad that this debate is still happening 16 years later.  

Unfortunately, hair type, just like skin color, are issues that plague black people.  The only solution (I can think of) is to be the representation that you seek.  That's hard, and a bit soul crushing, as I can see from what this woman explains, but if she is really making herself a member of the NHC because she wants to be a beacon for 4C girls, quitting is the worse thing that she can do.  

Thriving, healthy communities are not monolithic.  When people refer to the "natural hair community", they make an assumption that everyone in that community will be alike.  If there is going to be a NHC, that community needs to be accepting and respectful of all of its members.  Additionally, all of the members need to recognize the role they play in shaping that community.  In this case, this woman seems finished with the NHC when what she should do, if she really cares, is to continue to be the face and voice for what she considers a group that is under represented.


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## curlycrocheter (May 4, 2014)

I don't know if my opinion matters on this subject  but I agree with her.

I have long felt like the phrase "good hair" has been sugarcoated...I mean replaced by "hair type".


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## ManeStreet (May 4, 2014)

I'm not going to speak on her opinion but it teens of numbers more black women are 3c, 4a or 4b than 4c. 4c isn't as common of a hair texture IMO. But I could be wrong.


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## CaraWalker (May 4, 2014)

prettybyrd said:


> My BFF and I went natural at 20.  We're now 36.  When we went natural the "movement" of black women wearing natural hair was gaining more and more steam.  I remember going to an open forum back then where women were talking about how curly hair was being preferred over kinky hair in the "natural hair movement". * I am so sad that this debate is still happening 16 years later.
> 
> Unfortunately, hair type, just like skin color, are issues that plague black people.*  The only solution (I can think of) is to be the representation that you seek.  That's hard, and a bit soul crushing, as I can see from what this woman explains, but if she is really making herself a member of the NHC because she wants to be a beacon for 4C girls, quitting is the worse thing that she can do.
> 
> Thriving, healthy communities are not monolithic.  When people refer to the "natural hair community", they make an assumption that everyone in that community will be alike.  If there is going to be a NHC, that community needs to be accepting and respectful of all of its members.  Additionally, all of the members need to recognize the role they play in shaping that community.  In this case, this woman seems finished with the NHC when what she should do, if she really cares, is to continue to be the face and voice for what she considers a group that is under represented.



 im flat out not going to participate in these kinds of "debates" anymore. theyre ridiculous and as a whole we need to STOP.


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## NaturallyATLPCH (May 4, 2014)

I think the hair typing thing is a fail altogether.


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## EnExitStageLeft (May 4, 2014)

While I'm sure she has a valid reasoning behind her vid/article.......I just don't feel the same way. Then again I have a bit of a obsession with type 4b/c hair, so my opinion may be a bit skewed.  

The bulk of who I follow/hair stalk is 4b/4c

AfricanExport
KikiCoulture
FusionofCultures
mstanish1
tiajonay 
Froreal3
virtuenow
DoDo
jewel
....And the list goes on. 

I LOVE me a kinky texture because as ManeStreet mentioned....it isn't common. 

Long hair in general is BEAUTIFUL..do not get me wrong. But its just something about long kinky hair that makes me hairgasm instantly. 

I can't explain it. I just love me a "Kink".


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## cutiebe2 (May 4, 2014)

I am listening to her video now. I will push back on her and say that I equally feel I don't fit in because my hair is not super kinky and thick. I will agree with her that you shouldn't oogly a woman like Taren if you don't have her texture. At the same time Nap85 is popular and I will never have her hair either! She must have 3x the amount of hair I have and her hair is coarser than mine.

I agree with her that the media hypes a certain type of curly hair. In fact a lot of what she is saying is true, most of the stuff being pushed in for products and swindlers abound. At the same time, it doesn't mean that her type of hair (4c) is what everyone has. I haven't watched her video but she may not be representative of my hair either.


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## BlaqKitty (May 4, 2014)

I think she's bitter because she feels like she deserves more views on youtube, when really that isn't the case. I just don't think it has anything to do with hair, but the fact that she isn't very likable in MY opinion.

Nikkimae for example, she has kinky hair, I would call it 4b/4c. She has a lot of subscribers and over all is just way more likable.


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## HoneyBadger (May 4, 2014)

curlycrocheter said:


> I don't know if my opinion matters on this subject  but I agree with her.
> 
> I have long felt like the phrase "good hair" has been sugarcoated...I mean replaced by "hair type".



Yep. The term 4z has replaced nappy but the underlying sentiment is the same 

She's right and I hope her article gets a lot publicity.


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## DigitalRain (May 4, 2014)

I follow CurlyNikki on FB and have not seen 4b/c pic featured in her posts on my feed. Don't know if I was absent the day she posted a b/c hair type, but I've been waiting for a while and have yet to see one.


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## Embyra (May 4, 2014)

DigitalRain said:


> I follow CurlyNikki on FB and have not seen 4b/c pic featured in her posts on my feed. Don't know if I was absent the day she posted a b/c hair type, but I've been waiting for a while and have yet to see one.




Curly Nikki has been called out many times for not featuring enough 4c types on her blog I even saw where she talked about it in the comments section years ago

Sent from my iPad using LHCF


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## DigitalRain (May 4, 2014)

Embyra said:


> Curly Nikki has been called out many times for not featuring enough 4c types on her blog I even saw where she talked about it in the comments section years ago
> 
> Sent from my iPad using LHCF



Didn't know that, wow. I've come close to unfollowing her.


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## Saludable84 (May 4, 2014)

NaturallyATLPCH said:


> I think the hair typing thing is a fail altogether.



I just shouted thank. See, this is why I like you. I tell people all the time I don't believe in hair typing and people act like its a crime. I've said it once and I'll say it again: it's just another form of segregation. So sad that black women have accepted it.


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## Dilettante (May 4, 2014)

I agree with just about everything she said in the article.  On the internet you mostly see natural hair in the 3ish range, but in real life I see way more type 4s.  The representation just isn't there online.  I don't think hairtyping is inherently evil (because you need a language to talk about your experiences in), but I do think some people use it as a more exact way to create a divide between hair they think is good or bad.

That video though.... It makes a lot of good points too, but I paused at the stuff about the low views and companies not working with her.  I've watched some of Jouelzy's other videos, and honestly if I had a natural product company I doubt I'd want her as a spokeswoman.  She's beautiful, but her videos sometimes aren't 'family friendly' and her product reviews can be vague.  A company wants someone who will really describe the product well without going above PG language.


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## sharifeh (May 4, 2014)

ManeStreet said:


> I'm not going to speak on her opinion but it teens of numbers more black women are 3c, 4a or 4b than 4c. 4c isn't as common of a hair texture IMO. But I could be wrong.



i have no idea, but maybe its possible that this hair type is just as common as the others but people aren't as likely to go natural with this hair type or it doesn't get as much publicity in blogs etc...


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## Froreal3 (May 4, 2014)

She's right. Her video delivery was pretty poor, but her message is true.


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## ckisland (May 4, 2014)

The hierarchy is definitely real in the hair community, but like other posters have mentioned, I don't think 4c hair is actually that common. From what I've seen on various hair forums and in real life, there are far more 3c, 3c/4a and 4a/4b type ladies than 3a/3b or 4c. I'm type 4, but I don't really watch type 4b or 4c youtubers because their methods or hairstyles don't work for my hair. My hair flourishes from wash n'gos, and most type 4s don't wear wash n'gos regularly, so I end up following ladies who are 3cs because their techniques work for my hair. 

Another thing that I don't think people think about is that many of these type 3s don't just have black viewers. Their curl type is relevant to mixed, Latina, and ethnic white ladies, while a type 4b/c channel will only be relevant to a portion of the black natural community. It's the same with beauty gurus. Most of the top ones have a lighter complexion that correlates with a much larger and more diverse world audience. So even if you took colorism out of the equation, a lady with an olive complexion should have a much larger viewing audience than a lady with dark chocolate skin. 

An issue that goes along with this is the explosion of natural weaves. A lot of those curls on tumblr and instagram aren't real to begin with, which is giving a false impression of what natural hair really looks like, even when it's type 3. And in real life, I now see a lot of curly heads but 95% of them are fake erplexed. I think that is causing a new level of insecurity and disappointment than any actual type 3 youtuber, because the average natural can't compete with the thickness, perfect curl definition, and lack of shrinkage that a weave or wig can give.


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## HoneyBadger (May 4, 2014)

DigitalRain said:


> Didn't know that, wow. I've come close to unfollowing her.




There's a reason she's popular and she knows her bread and butter is other heads that look like hers. That's also the reason I'm not on her site. 

Also, as someone mentioned, "type 4s" may go natural, fall for the "all you need is co-wash to get your WnG looking right" mantra, get disillusioned and then return to perms. Jouelzy almost did and so did I.


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## prettybyrd (May 4, 2014)

Saludable84 said:


> I just shouted thank. See, this is why I like you. I tell people all the time I don't believe in hair typing and people act like its a crime. I've said it once and I'll say it again: it's just another form of segregation. So sad that black women have accepted it.



See, I was done with this until I read your post.  

IIRC, the original hair typing system did not leave much room for black women at all.  Anyone else remember that?  It was like: 1, 2, 3a, 3b, and 4.  I think that's right.  (I think it came out in like 1997 or so.)And the 4 looked like Rachel True - not a hair type many people at the time associated with black women.  All of the models that were used for type 4 were curly haired bi/multi racial women.  

Andre only changed his system as more black women went natural, and because *black women* created the 4a, b, and c categories.  He didn't do that!  There was no way I was going to embrace that system.  It was a set up from the start.  

This whole system has become a device used to divide black women.  Something that was so awesome - black women embracing and loving their natural selves - is becoming something ugly.

ETA:  I think that the 3c category was added to the system, not an original part of this system.


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## uofmpanther (May 4, 2014)

EnExitStageLeft

I think I get what she is saying, though she could have said it a little better.  Her issue, in the video, is that she has big numbers in youtube viewers and subscribers, but she is not getting the same love from hair care companies and hair shows that other vloggers with less viewers are getting.  I tend to agree with her.  I could be wrong but, aside from CharyJay, I think the only vlogger with kinkier hair that I really see out there doing promotional appearances is Jenell from Kinky Curly Coily Me, and I feel my own kind of way about her product reviews.  Even with CharyJay, I may only know who she is because she is from my city.

I have some coils (3c/4a) and some kinks (4b/c) and, when I started my natural hair journey, I was so confused about why my hair didn't behave like the people with all curly or coily hair, who were publicized as being "hair gurus".  I was aware of the hair typing system, but it didn't really click.  After watching Jouelzy, Naptural85 and CharyJay, I finally started to get it.

As an aside, you just gave me two new youtube people to look up...lol


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## meecee (May 4, 2014)

I've been a member of natural hair boards since 1999 long before curlyhair.com began fully accepting type 4 haired ladies, and  witnessed the creation of napturality by DeeCoily in response to the need for a hair forum that was more inclusive of kinkier hair types. I can honestly say this conversation will never ever go away. As long as we have new sistas learning to embrace their natural hair, there will always be a rather public process of women  learning to accept their natural hair. This is difficult as it will take many many years of reconditioning your mind.  I went through the same process when I first went natural, I wanted curl definition that simply could not be created on my head. 

I agree with the underlying message of this article, the most popular youtubers and bloggers do have looser hair textures. AS a 4a/4b I simply keep it moving. I don't watch or subscribe to those channels because my hair is not the same. I am okay with that. I am so grateful for the type 4 ladies that chose to promote styles that do not focus on wash and go's. I have learned to do so much more with my hair besides twists.  

Some of my favorite type 4 youtubers: Iknowlee, Blakisbeautyful, Kyss My Hair, mrskw7, Dawnyele, Mynaturalsistas, and CharyJay. Please check these ladies out if your looking for styles besides wash n go's.


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## MileHighDiva (May 4, 2014)

This reminds me of that video that LHDC-TV posted a couple of months ago, where she's frustrated that her views and subbies are not at the same level as other YT'ers.  Of course, she blames it all on doing business with black owned business' (BOBs).  I quickly, unsubscribed from her channel.

This is my first time watching a Jouezly video, so I can't speak about her previous content.  However, both she and LHDC-TV need to realize that just because you launch a YT channel (business) doesn't mean that manna is going to fall from the sky.  YT success is not an entitlement.  Some will be uber successful and some will not. 

I'm not touching the hair typing stuff  The slave masters did a really good job of teaching Black people to be divisive.   Did it occur to her that using fowl language or inferring it, may turn off potential financially lucrative partnerships?


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## CocoGlow (May 4, 2014)

This is a sensitive topic for me so please excuse the long-winded-ness lol 

This has been going on since ... forever!  

Growing up, girls with silkier, shiner, curlier, wavier, longer hair would get all the attention from boys & girls as being "exotic" and would brag that they had "Indian" in their family ... while girls with kinkier, nappier, tighter coils with less sheen & more shrinkage  would be viewed as "regular" 

Before YouTube, the Natural Hair "celebrities" were on Fotki and Blogs & Forums like this. The girls with the looser textures got most of the attention & adoration. 

The only girls with Nappy hair like mine that got a lot of attention & adoration were those with LONG Nappy hair. If those 4B/4C kinks stretched down their back, even to their waist OMG! They were unicorns because most of us had never seen THIS texture reach those lengths (aside from locs). So here the focus was on *"Girl how did you get all that regular Nappy hair to grow that long?"* - not *"Girl your hair is soooooo beautiful (regardless of length), I'm drooling"* like it was with the looser textures. 

Longer hair was revered more than shorter for ALL hair types, of course, but a girl with shorter 3B/C ... even 4A hair with coils poppin' would get waaaay more attention than girls with 4B/C hair of the same length

Just the way it is... and has been .... nothin' new here. 

She mentioned that years ago she asked a girl with looser hair how she got her slick shiny waves & curls poppin' -- it never occurred to me to ask a girl with shiny waves & curls poppin' how they got their hair like that. I instinctively knew that it had more to do with their texture than technique, and while I saw the beauty in those curls and all that shine, I never tried to make my hair do that because I knew that my texture & density would not slick to my head that way or shine that way - and so what?!! 

When my hair was longer I loved to put my hair into buns  - I would smooth it with a scarf for a few minutes but that was as slick as it would get (and this "slickness" was very temporary by the way )and I was fine with that. I loved my cotton and was not trying to get it to look like what it's not: 



 

 



So with the plethora of curly hair love going around and pics of sleek shiny buns all over the place, what helped me accept and love my kinks for what it can do in a bun? My own experiments and seeing pics of girls with *my* texture on Fotki, etc wearing buns -- not focusing on the best holding gels and shine - embracing the pouf factor. I had to see what was possible with *my *hair. So now whenever I see a cute style regardless of the texture I try to translate that into what it will look like on *my *head with *my *texture. 

My poofy cotton texture with it's own low sheen in a bun does not need to be super slick against my head with waves and shine to be beautiful or professional. I don't need silky defined coils/curls either. If I really want my hair to be slick to my head for a particular style, I will just cornrow or flat twist my hair - this gives me a similar look without trying to force my hair to lay down with some miracle gel and then getting mad that it doesn't work! There ain't enough gel & scarf tying in the world to get slick shiny waves for me and guess what? I Don't Care! LOL  I'm not looking to a wash n Go to get curls ... If I want "curls" I'll do a Bantu knot-out or twist-out .... If I want waves, I'll do a braid-out 

Hopefully with more representation from 4B/C girls embracing their texture on YouTube, the more girls with hair like mine who are new to being natural or new to loving their own texture will be inspired. Mainstream society and popular brands may never embrace my texture as being just as beautiful as looser textures (I really don't expect them to) but what really matters is that *I *do and others with my texture do the same.  

Jouelzy and others with our texture may not ever get as many views/subscribers as those with looser textures but so what?!!! As long as these vloggers/bloggers keep up the good work, those of us with this texture will seek them out and appreciate what they do. 

By the way, when the natural hair movement started a few years ago, all I would see were the silky curly haired models on TV and ads but now I'm seeing more variety and kinkier haired models are being used as well so it's getting better, but again, I don't expect it. I used to whine about it and get frustrated but now I accept it for what it is and try to seek out my own inspiration and do my job on a local personal level to inspire others 

ETA: I read the article - did not look at the video ... I could care less about her or anyone else getting or not getting product endorsement deals, etc - that's not my concern. I watch & follow those who are creative with their styles and/or have great techniques & regimens ...


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## koolkittychick (May 4, 2014)

I think she is right on point with what she is saying. I think hair typing is the new code language for asking, "Do you have good hair?" I think the hair industry capitalizes on this deeply ingrained insecurity we Black women have as a whole about this. And we as Black women unfortunately perpetually feed this machine. 

That is why we are perpetually chasing the perfect technique for a "wash 'n' go," which is really code for "doing what it takes to make it look like I have biracial hair," because for most of us, a literal "wash 'n' go" results in a dull, shrunken Afro. That's why we buy stuff that looks to me like clear shoe polish to rub onto our scalps and call it "edge control." That's why I had to be reminded the hard way a few weeks ago that the stuff I use to make my hair appear straight is the same stuff that they sell as "Nair" and "Drano" for purposes that have *nothing* to do with healthy hair. And that's why I can walk out the door and encounter roughly 3/4 of the Black women I see wearing stuff on their heads that I or most other people would not deem acceptable for a Halloween costume or a cosplay convention and think they look cute, or at least better than how they would look with their own hair. 

If we are still in a place where Traycee from KISS77 is on the verge of tears because she has decided to go natural because she doesn't want to deal with her 4c hair, than we still have a very long way to go in terms of love, self acceptance, and learning to truly appreciate *all* the diversity we encompass in the Diaspora.


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## MileHighDiva (May 4, 2014)

NappyRina said:


> Mainstream society and popular brands may never embrace my texture as being just as beautiful as looser textures (I really don't expect them to) but what really matters is that *I *do and others with my texture do the same.
> 
> do my job on a local personal level to inspire others



Thanks was not enough!


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## NaturallyATLPCH (May 4, 2014)

I just watched the video. I don't think it's too bad. I was actually laughing. 

But to the poster that made the comments about Curly Nikki featuring people in her blog with looser curl patterns, I see what you are saying.

I even looked through some of her Show and Tell Fierce Friday curlies and noticed they all had similar looser curl types. Hmmmmm...

Oh, and NappyRina, hey hair twin!  Gorgeous tresses!


----------



## Foxglove (May 4, 2014)

DigitalRain said:


> I follow CurlyNikki on FB and have not seen 4b/c pic featured in her posts on my feed. Don't know if I was absent the day she posted a b/c hair type, but I've been waiting for a while and have yet to see one.



Black Girl with Long Hair is more inclusive of more textures and actually I would say features more type 4s than type 3's. She also features a good number of 4b's and 4c's, more than anybody else I've seen in major blog land


----------



## NaturallyATLPCH (May 4, 2014)

Foxglove said:


> Black Girl with Long Hair is more inclusive of more textures and actually I would say features more type 4s than type 3's. She also features a good number of 4b's and 4c's, more than anybody else I've seen in major blog land



I was going to mention this Foxglove.


----------



## lamaria211 (May 4, 2014)

Excellent!!


----------



## Joigirl (May 4, 2014)

There has always been divisiveness in our community relating to hair and skin tone. I think it is good that we can have a conversation on this topic and remind people that we don't have to play into the stereotypes. I still hear the "good hair" comment all the time between naturals and relaxed AAs alike.

When I first started watching YouTube videos, I wanted to find someone with hair just like mine. I'm still searching... I started expanding to those with tighter and looser textures that taught me something new. I think that is true for most NHC viewers.

I've seen a few of her videos in the past and her attitude turned me off.  She is not as successful because she is not that fun and entertaining to watch. I toyed around with the idea of doing YouTube videos but decided against it because, I can't style worth crap and nobody wants to watch me do the same style over and over again. You have to be charismatic to draw people in. Its probably not her hair that is the issue. 

There is just as much unconscious discrimination to naturals that are 40 and older. I only see young and beautiful naturals getting the accolades, but this is true in society as a whole.


----------



## PJaye (May 4, 2014)

I'm not a YT or blog person, but when I research product/tool reviews, the feedback I receive is overwhelmingly from so-called type 4 haired individuals.  It has never occurred to me to minimize or discount their experiences and conclusions because their hair wasn't like mine.

Off Topic:  She's giving me Keke Wyatt vibes (e.g., sarcastic, expletive-laden fast talk with constant eye rolling and stank face); I had to suppress the urge to punch her in her face.


----------



## *Frisky* (May 4, 2014)

BlaqKitty said:


> I think she's bitter because she feels like she deserves more views on youtube, when really that isn't the case. *I just don't think it has anything to do with hair, but the fact that she isn't very likable in MY opinion.*
> 
> Nikkimae for example, she has kinky hair, I would call it 4b/4c. She has a lot of subscribers and over all is just way more likable.



This and she is like this in person. How are you trying to be a popular vlogger but give stank attitude when people want to take pics with you. It goes with the territory. I don't like how she sounds like she is entitled to all this notoriety because of how many subscribers she has yada yada yada. Alot of people don't want to have to deal with that and is probably the main reason she doesn't get all these invites she thinks she deserves to get for events.


----------



## krissyhair (May 4, 2014)

Her article was very well written and she made some good points. If we all realize that women with different kinky and curly hair textures have good advice to offer everyone, regardless of hair type, then we may get over this hump. I have very curly hair but I enjoy watching kinky textured hair videos.

One thing I do notice is that friends and family don't take my hair advice seriously because I have a more baby-fine texture. That could be some cause of the problem too.

Did she say in her video that she didn't get as much love and attention as other natural hair bloggers? Because this girl is featured all over the dang place. She was the main attraction at a very large natural hair event in D.C. last summer.


----------



## Mahogony7 (May 4, 2014)

This whole debate is one of the reasons why I don't like or follow the hair typing system. I think YOU should try what YOU want to. Yes, reviews are wonderful and help you from making mistakes, but there are times when you just have to take the plunge and risk.

I can't identify with where she is coming from because I very rarely buy any of the natural hair care products talked about on this forum. I live in Japan and mainly use Japanese products and my hair is thriving, thriving! I think we sometimes put limitations on what to use and what not to use in our mind. 

At one point in time I like Jouelzy's vids, but then, she just started to seem a bit brass. Making videos about how she doesn't understand how some YT folks have so many followers when their vids suck. Then there was that vid she did with a glass of wine talking about how things or people piss her off. Sometimes she goes a bit too far. I honestly think that she is pissed about her lack of subscribers.

If she come onto YT with the intent of making money, she should have done more research. YT is in many ways based on the superficial and not always on content. You also have to be personable and not stank, which jouelzy can be at times.

I think that her regimen just never really worked for her hair. When I watched some of her vids I always thought her hair looked so dry. And I think it came down to the products and her techniques. I just wanted her to come to the forum and look at some DC threads and pick up a few bottles of Aubrey because that stuff is the truth and isn't directly marketed at one hair type. Well there are some who think its only for white folks.

I see Youtubers with hair similar to Jouelzy's and it's cute and moisturized and they seem to be having a good time. My hair is somewhat similar to Joueslys and I have bounce and shine. I guess Im just not knee deep into the whole natural hair community, so maybe that's why it doesn't upset me so much.


----------



## BlaqKitty (May 4, 2014)

Mahogony7 said:


> This whole debate is one of the reasons why I don't like or follow the hair typing system. I think YOU should try what YOU want to. Yes, reviews are wonderful and help you from making mistakes, but there are times when you just have to take the plunge and risk.
> 
> I can't identify with where she is coming from because I very rarely buy any of the natural hair care products talked about on this forum. I live in Japan and mainly use Japanese products and my hair is thriving, thriving! I think we sometimes put limitations on what to use and what not to use in our mind.
> 
> ...



I'm envious because you live in Japan.


----------



## Mahogony7 (May 4, 2014)

prettybyrd said:


> See, I was done with this until I read your post.
> 
> IIRC, the original hair typing system did not leave much room for black women at all.  Anyone else remember that?  It was like: 1, 2, 3a, 3b, and 4.  I think that's right.  (I think it came out in like 1997 or so.)And the 4 looked like Rachel True - not a hair type many people at the time associated with black women.  All of the models that were used for type 4 were curly haired bi/multi racial women.
> 
> ...



Mmm Hmmm. And how many more petty things do we need to divide us amongst ourselves?! Hell next it will probably be eyebrows or some other nonsense.


----------



## ckisland (May 4, 2014)

*Frisky* said:


> This and she is like this in person. How are you trying to be a popular vlogger but give stank attitude when people want to take pics with you. It goes with the territory. I don't like how she sounds like she is entitled to all this notoriety because of how many subscribers she has yada yada yada. Alot of people don't want to have to deal with that and is probably the main reason she doesn't get all these invites she thinks she deserves to get for events.



I've tried watching her before, and I just can't. For me, her hair texture isn't the problem at all . But how in the world does she think that she deserves to be sent products?! She couldn't afford to buy products, so a company better send her some . I can't believe she actually let that come out of her mouth. Most of the youtubers I've watched were purchasing their own products, and doing reviews long before anyone was sponsoring them. She apparently hasn't noticed that there are *a lot* of naturals on Youtube. And the vast majority of them aren't sponsored. If I was company only handing free products to a couple of vloggers, she wouldn't make it on my top 15 for a list of reasons. 

I think it's interesting that ladies are feeling that there aren't enough youtubers who do styles besides wash n'gos. Most naturals on youtube do twistout, twists, updo, braidout, not wash n'go style videos . They may also do a wash n'go video here and there, but the majority are other styles. I remember the same sentiment on the other site, but it was to the point that wanting to wear a wash n'go was villainized erplexed. Y'all must not know how hard it is to find someone who's not a 3a/3b, or doing twistouts while calling it a wash n'go , doing wash n'gos regularly . If you don't want to do a wash n'go, you're not out of luck. Just click on any of the 50-11 videos that aren't


----------



## EssenceOfBeauty (May 4, 2014)

Foxglove said:


> Black Girl with Long Hair is more inclusive of more textures and actually I would say features more type 4s than type 3's. She also features a good number of 4b's and 4c's, more than anybody else I've seen in major blog land



Leila is pretty awesome and was nice enough to feature me, and I have hair on the kinkier end of the spectrum.


As for Jouelzy...I get where she is coming from. There is a hierarchy in the natural hair community...the kinkier the hair, the lower the rung or so it seems.

I made the decision to love what I have and work it...regardless what anyone else thinks. *Kanye shrug*


----------



## uofmpanther (May 4, 2014)

Foxglove said:


> Black Girl with Long Hair is more inclusive of more textures and actually I would say features more type 4s than type 3's. She also features a good number of 4b's and 4c's, more than anybody else I've seen in major blog land



ITA!  I drool over a lot of the 4 heads featured on BGLH.


----------



## kandake (May 4, 2014)

I think her real issue is that she's still not comfortable with her hair.  And she seems really bitter about it.

My hair is 4b.  When wet, 90% of it is just a mass of hair with no curl in sight.  I realized that very early on and started doing things that worked for my texture.  I followed people with my hair type, and there are quite a few out there.  Now, I do watch ladies with varying textures cause I just like hair in general.  But common sense tells me that I'm not going to get 3c curls with some kinky curly.  And that's ok.  I don't concern myself with curling products.  They aren't meant for me.  And there's an equal amount of moisturizers and twisting butters for kinky hair types.  So I don't really know about the comment about the market focusing more on curly hair and curling products.

I do believe there's a hierarchy.  It didn't just go away cause people went natural.  People still believe in "good hair" no matter how much we try to banish that phrase.

Re:  her issue with followers.  I have seen a few of her videos and I never felt compelled to subscribe because she doesn't seem all that likeable.


----------



## silverbuttons (May 4, 2014)

I think we can all nitpick about things we don't like about her, but overall there is a bigger issue at play. Going natural doesn't erase the bias to looser curls and lighter skin.


----------



## Marand13 (May 5, 2014)

I kind of agree with her to a certain extent but at the same time why do we make race and hair texture such an issue. I mean when I am watching someone on youtube I am not watching because they are similar to me, I watch because I like the content that they put out!

I actually just found her page the other day and have been watching some of her videos and I do like that she is very opinionated but that could be off putting to many people.

Me personally, I post videos not for views but because I want to. I like putting stuff up on youtube and if someone doesn't like watching because of my hair texture or skin color or whatever, then oh well!! Watch someone else! There are plenty of people out there!

Companies hire models with hair that is pleasing to the eye to most people. Many people see those photos of the girls with the 3 type hair and think that if they buy said product their hair will look like that. That is called advertising....

Anyway, all that to basically say I really don't think its that serious. People are shallow and thats never going to change. We are becoming more open minded as a whole but there is always going to be some type of discrimination. Its just human nature.


----------



## BlaqKitty (May 5, 2014)

I do agree that the natural community has a hierarchy... You know what's at the top of it? No hair type, just long hair. Nobody cares if your hair is 4c when it's BSL+. Literally no one.


----------



## Amarilles (May 5, 2014)

Jouelzy herself explains that her personality isn't for everyone and that her writing is much more accessible, as are her tutorial videos because her personality takes a backseat. It's not about her not fully accepting her texture, in my opinion is all the contrary and she wants to open up eyes as to what *is* her texture versus what it's not. As per her videos, she's been there done that with trying to make her hair do what it naturally doesn't.

I personally understand where she's coming from. She's saying that it takes work to put out quality videos (as far as lighting, camera, technique, etc), it takes work and dedication to acquire a large amount of subscribers and views, yet she isn't compensated in the same way some people with a lesser quality and less subscribers/views might. She blames this on a texture preference. She isn't talking about no love period for type 4 YouTubers IMO, she's saying that quality + numbers should be yielding something greater. It should be math, it shouldn't be a texture preference.

But then again, I adore me some Jouelzy and I follow her very regularly. I get her.


----------



## Keen (May 5, 2014)

I get the same sentiment from some posters in here as I get from some Caucasians who think racism is all in black people head. Sometimes you have to experience certain things or feelings to really understand.  As a 4C I can totally relate.


----------



## BostonMaria (May 5, 2014)

Keen said:


> I get the same sentiment from some posters in here as I get from some Caucasians who think racism is all in black people head. Sometimes you have to experience certain things or feelings to really understand.  As a 4C I can totally relate.



I'm 3C and feel frustrated with my hair and feel like all these products are for 4A hair.... but I'm probably seeing things from my perspective only so I do believe the article.   

Don't know who this lady is but giving up isn't the solution.


----------



## Embyra (May 5, 2014)

BostonMaria said:


> I'm 3C and feel frustrated with my hair and feel like all these products are for 4A hair....



Interesting what do you think is missing for your hair type that type 4s are getting ?


----------



## CodeRed (May 5, 2014)

Marand13 said:


> Anyway, all that to basically say I really don't think its that serious. People are shallow and thats never going to change. We are becoming more open minded as a whole but there is always going to be some type of discrimination. Its just human nature.


 

Yep. That's the crux of the human condition and why most debates (or all) on any kind of entertainment/beauty/media board happen.


----------



## BostonMaria (May 5, 2014)

Embyra said:


> Interesting what do you think is missing for your hair type that type 4s are getting ?



I go on YouTube and I feel like all the videos are catered to 4a hair. I try products and I've yet to find a holy grail so I'm assuming it's not for my hair type., maybe it's for 4a hair. This is just from my perspective. I'm not saying that the article is wrong. Just saying that from my end I don't think I have it that good.


----------



## CaraWalker (May 5, 2014)

my hair is 3c/4aish and almost none of the youtube videos i come across have hair that looks like mine... but why ima cry about it? idgi


----------



## oneastrocurlie (May 5, 2014)

BlaqKitty said:


> I do agree that the natural community has a hierarchy... You know what's at the top of it? No hair type, just long hair. Nobody cares if your hair is 4c when it's BSL+. Literally no one.



Ain't that the truth.


----------



## BostonMaria (May 5, 2014)

Hold up...
She has 80K subscribers!!! Why is she complaining that nobody watches her channel?

I personally won't subscribe to her channel, but not because of her hair type (actually her hair is very pretty) just don't like the way she talks. I like my vloggers to be warm and fuzzy LOL she seems a little crass.  Whatever she's doing its working because its getting attention.



BlaqKitty said:


> I do agree that the natural community has a hierarchy... You know what's at the top of it? No hair type, just long hair. Nobody cares if your hair is 4c when it's BSL+. Literally no one.



I will admit that if the vlogger has had short hair for 3 years and doesn't seem to grow.. I don't care if she's a 3C (Taren) I will unsubscribe and not pay any mind to her.


----------



## tinkat (May 5, 2014)

She is not complaining about the subscribers, it's more so the double standard in the natural hair community and how woman of kinkier textures are not being represented enough particularly in the media.

Wait, be positive, keep believing, and all will surely be yours. Sent from my iPhone using LHCF


----------



## BostonMaria (May 5, 2014)

tinkat said:


> She is not complaining about the subscribers, it's more so the double standard in the natural hair community and how woman of kinkier textures are not being represented enough particularly in the media.
> 
> Wait, be positive, keep believing, and all will surely be yours. Sent from my iPhone using LHCF



OK gotcha  sorry I guess I shouldn't read so fast. I do believe there is a fascination with curls.  I guess my "fascination" is just long hair.

By the way, your signature always throws me off. I always think you're telling me to chill (be positive) Ahaha


----------



## Britt (May 5, 2014)

koolkittychick said:


> If we are still in a place where Traycee from KISS77 is on the verge of tears because she has decided to go natural because she doesn't want to deal with her 4c hair, than we still have a very long way to go in terms of love, self acceptance, and learning to truly appreciate *all* the diversity we encompass in the Diaspora.


I noticed this too in her video. She looked like she thought longgg and hard and is not really excited about her new journey. She really looked like she was trying to keep it together. The video had a bit of a somber feel for her. 



Joigirl said:


> There is just as much unconscious discrimination to naturals that are 40 and older. I only see young and beautiful naturals getting the accolades, but this is true in society as a whole.


 
YEPPPPP! I'm 32 and I feel this way lol. A woman on curly nikki is over 40 was talking about this. She pretty much said the natural community caters to the youth and no one really gives attention to the older naturals.


----------



## Ogoma (May 5, 2014)

IMO the natural hair community is primarily made up of women with type 4 hair so who are we scolding? Ourselves? If there is a hierarchy, it is one reinforced by the very women that are claiming to be at the bottom. BGLH did an article a while ago about something similar to this. She was advised to put women with curlier hair on her website to attract black women with kinky hair. 

Now to Joulezy's point: I get why she is upset. This preference for less kinky hair impacts her money. I would be pissed if I were her. I am not sure what the solution is because she cannot force people to like or cater to her hair type. Videos like this might get those companies to examine themselves or guilt people into hiring her. I kind of like her snarky self. 

I like Curl Junkie, but it seems pretty clear to me this company is not catering to kinkier hair types. She has a ton of products that work for a lot of hair types/patterns, but don't expect to see kinkier hair types or black women in ads for her company or the front page of her website. That is not the core consumer she is chasing. A business gets to set who her core customers are, what products she is creating, and how she is marketing it. What would be the point of getting pissed at Curl Junkie for not featuring kinkier hairstyles when it is not her targeted audience?


----------



## *Frisky* (May 5, 2014)

koolkittychick said:


> If we are still in a place where Traycee from KISS77 is on the verge of tears because she has decided to go natural because she doesn't want to deal with her 4c hair, than we still have a very long way to go in terms of love, self acceptance, and learning to truly appreciate *all* the diversity we encompass in the Diaspora.



Dam I didn't watch all the video so I had to go back and yes, she definitely has issues with her natural hair. She is just going to turn into a wig wearer like she is doing now anyway. I won't be surprised it she loses some subscribers. If her channel has been about her long hair, some people aren't going to be here for her doing a total switch up. Hopefully she will come to terms with her hair one day.


----------



## Wildchild453 (May 5, 2014)

Amarilles said:


> I personally understand where she's coming from. She's saying that it takes work to put out quality videos (as far as lighting, camera, technique, etc), it takes work and dedication to acquire a large amount of subscribers and views, yet she isn't compensated in the same way some people with a lesser quality and less subscribers/views might.



Why should she be compensated? These companies aren't obligated to work with her. She went into YT on an assumption that that would be the outcome and it didn't work out. Oh well.

If anything I see, companies flock to the 4a more than anyone else.


----------



## Mahogony7 (May 5, 2014)

Wait, people are the verge of tears over something they have control oferplexed?! If you feel that strongly why even do it? It's not like someone is forcing her hand. If she enjoys her relaxed hair then she should stay relaxed.


----------



## Dreamn (May 5, 2014)

Mahogony7 said:


> Wait, people are the verge of tears over something they have control oferplexed?! If you feel that strongly why even do it? It's not like someone is forcing her hand. If she enjoys her relaxed hair then she should stay relaxed.




Yes, can someone answer why she's going natural?


----------



## faithVA (May 5, 2014)

I have sooo much to say but I'm going to need another cup of coffee. I didn't watch the video but I live a lot of Jouelzy's pain so not going to bother right now. 

My hair type is Jouelzy. Whatever she is, that is what I am. She is the first person I ever saw on yt whose hair looked like mine. And it is rare that I see people on yt or on the net with hair like mine. 

I have been watching Jouelzy for a while and she was cool when she first started out. The Jouelzy I think we are seeing now is the real Jouelzy. She has dropped the politically correct version and she has just let loose. Unfortunately, I think she lost people with the loud, angry sounding, trash talking thing. It may be ok with one video but I don't want to see that week to week. She forgot her audience is broad and got to comfortable.

As far as hair typing separating us, No. When I was 8 years old before there was such a thing as hair typing, I could clearly look around and see that the girl next door, and the girls across the street had hair that wasn't anything near like mine. My hair wasn't ever going to do that and wasn't ever going to be like that. Whether we put a label on our hair or not, we know early on our hair is different. I don't feel differently about my hair because it is now labeled 4 something. I knew it was 4 something all along. It didn't change anything. It did allow me to at least try to find some people who could probably help me. 

I don't think hair like Jouelzy's and mine are as common as some other hair at least not by what I see. I do think that people with hair similar to mine if they do go natural tend to hide it or keep it tucked away. I think we have a lot of challenges with our hair and many of them are dismissed. We are told, oh just go do 1, 2 and 3 and you will be OK. So few of us have really figured out how to manage our own hair and so there are very few of us to support others like us in our own natural journey.

I have more to say but Woosah.  I'm going to let it go.

Im sure I agree with what most of the posters in this thread with hair similar to mine have already said.

Jouelzy has to work out her issues. Maybe this will help her do so.


----------



## kandake (May 5, 2014)

Mahogony7 said:


> Wait, people are the verge of tears over something they have control oferplexed?! If you feel that strongly why even do it? It's not like someone is forcing her hand. If she enjoys her relaxed hair then she should stay relaxed.



I agree.  I don't see the point, unless she has some sort of condition that prohibits her from continuing with relaxers.  If it causes you that much anxiety that you're in tears(or near tears) just keep the doggone relaxer.  

People act so strange about this natural vs. relaxed thing.


----------



## blackeyes31626 (May 5, 2014)

I agree with everything she said. Another girl on yt(kinksgalore(sp?)) made a video about this too...I agree w/ her too.


----------



## kandake (May 5, 2014)

Marand13 said:


> I kind of agree with her to a certain extent but at the same time why do we make race and hair texture such an issue. I mean when I am watching someone on youtube I am not watching because they are similar to me, I watch because I like the content that they put out!
> 
> I actually just found her page the other day and have been watching some of her videos and I do like that she is very opinionated but that could be off putting to many people.
> 
> ...



What's your channel?


----------



## naturalmanenyc (May 5, 2014)

koolkittychick

I haven't followed Traycee in a few years since I decided to go natural in 2008.  I had no idea she was in tears over the decision to go natural.  It's sort of odd when being natural isn't a requirement.erplexed



koolkittychick said:


> If we are still in a place where Traycee from KISS77 is on the verge of tears because she has decided to go natural because she doesn't want to deal with her 4c hair, than we still have a very long way to go in terms of love, self acceptance, and learning to truly appreciate *all* the diversity we encompass in the Diaspora.


----------



## Cherokee-n-Black (May 5, 2014)

BostonMaria said:


> I'm 3C and feel frustrated with my hair and feel like all these products are for 4A hair.... but I'm probably seeing things from my perspective only so I do believe the article.
> 
> Don't know who this lady is but giving up isn't the solution.


 
I agree that the grass is always greener, somehow.  It's interesting that we start to devolve into this divisiveness no matter what the perspective (I think I'm 3c but I've never really figured it out. My hair is not curly, its crinkly).  One of the major shifts with the curly girl/natural movement is that all these women who have what is now somehow seen as the "preferred" hair type were relaxing their hair because someone previously told them that their hair wasn't "good enough."  I know I definitely got told that growing up.  All of this has its origins in the attack on black hair texture from slavery on up to present day, but even curly 3c's and 4a's showing their natural texture is progress.  Those types were NOT considered to be "good hair."  We may not be there yet in terms of universally embracing the hair in the 4c range, but I actually believe we will get there.  I also think the science and technology has not yet caught up.  There are some types that seem to have more of an issue with moisture retention. I think once that secret is unlocked, you will see a lot more of those textures represented. As for hair typing, it was hierchial fromm the start.  Doesn't it seem a bit like "ranking" instead of "typing."  And #1 is bone straight?  Wish it have never been invented. SMH...


----------



## koolkittychick (May 5, 2014)

Mahogony7 said:


> Wait, people are the verge of tears over something they have control oferplexed?! If you feel that strongly why even do it? It's not like someone is forcing her hand. If she enjoys her relaxed hair then she should stay relaxed.



According to the video, she has decided to go natural for a couple of reasons. One, she could not get consistent results with textlaxing, and that was causing problems. Second, her last relaxer experience was not good (she didn't elaborating on the reasons why), and so she wanted to take a break from it. While they were valid reasons, it really did seem like she was veeery emotional (and not in a good way) about having to come to the decision to go natural. Hopefully she will get the support she seems to need from the bloggers who are transitioning with her (who seem to have a much better attitude towards transitioning) and she seriously makes use of all the resources out there so that she does not spend the whole time under wigs and weaves.


----------



## Amarilles (May 5, 2014)

Wildchild453 said:


> Why should she be compensated? These companies aren't obligated to work with her. She went into YT on an assumption that that would be the outcome and it didn't work out. Oh well.
> 
> If anything I see, companies flock to the 4a more than anyone else.


Well, no one has to be I guess. But I think we all would feel some kind of way if we are successful in our careers but someone in your domain who is notably less successful is getting more rewards/better pay/more attention. 

It's a matter of sense of achievement. She feels that her 80k subscribers, her video content and quality, runs a hair column, her putting on a successful hair expo, etc, speaks for itself and blames her texture on the lack attention/opportunities from companies. 

This particular video stems from her not being asked to be part hair events, the World National Hair Show in particular methinks, and not being given opportunities that less successful YouTubers are getting.


----------



## Bette Davis Eyes (May 5, 2014)

LOL

First shes talking REALLY Fast. Second... Nappturality loves them some  "4Cs" over there and always has. 

Whether or not you agree with what Nappturality stands for, Dee eked out a home for those who do not feel as if the "natural hair community" is for them..

I started out in 2006 over there and never got into the whole "curl pop" thing. If you go by hair typing  I am a 4a with 4b above the ears but can easily brush my hair out and look 4b.


As a product junkie and lazy blogger.  I buy what I want and review what I want.  I do not go to companies asking them to provide me hair products.

Under PPJ companies did send us products to review but 9 times out of 10 we already had bought said items.  

If thats why you started your vlogging(to get hair products sent for free), then you set yourself back from the get go.

 You get what you want out of this journey.  Its easy to follow  YT folks with hair types not like yours and yes they get more views than said others but its up to you to decide who to follow.

I'm rarely on YT and I look to not a one to inspire me.  I've found more inspiration on the hair forums than anywhere else.


----------



## Mahogony7 (May 5, 2014)

^^Now I understand where she is coming from, but her delivery is piss poor. She needs to take it down a notch.


----------



## Mahogony7 (May 5, 2014)

koolkittychick said:


> According to the video, she has decided to go natural for a couple of reasons. One, she could not get consistent results with textlaxing, and that was causing problems. Second, her last relaxer experience was not good (she didn't elaborating on the reasons why), and so she wanted to take a break from it. While they were valid reasons, it really did seem like she was veeery emotional (and not in a good way) about having to come to the decision to go natural. Hopefully she will get the support she seems to need from the bloggers who are transitioning with her (who seem to have a much better attitude towards transitioning) and she seriously makes use of all the resources out there so that she does not spend the whole time under wigs and weaves.



Then why not explore other options in the relaxed area. Maybe try a new relaxer or get it done by a professional. She will be tears if she is attempting to transition with all that length. Wait until its time for her to detangle.


----------



## nubiennze (May 5, 2014)

Just watched Traycee's video, and to me she seemed more emotional about having cut so much of her hair than anything. She faltered right when she mentioned her hair being the shortest it's ever been since she started her hair journey, and she was adamant about not big chopping/never wanting short hair.

I found her issues with relaxing relatively straightforward: she was experiencing too much burning and didn't want to have to do it anymore. She said she's been natural as an adult and knows what to expect, but initially relaxed to combat shrinkage (again, presumably to show length).

I think she's primarily experiencing length apprehension, but if she did it once, she can do it again. I'm sure she'll be just fine.


----------



## Ogoma (May 5, 2014)

I am not sure I agree one person crying over going natural (when she has the option not to) is an indictment on all of us and how we feel about our hair. Extrapolating from her strange actions to all black women seems a stretch at best.


----------



## *Frisky* (May 5, 2014)

Amarilles said:


> Well, no one has to be I guess. But I think we all would feel some kind of way if we are successful in our careers but someone in your domain who is notably less successful is getting more rewards/better pay/more attention.
> 
> It's a matter of sense of achievement. She feels that her 80k subscribers, her video content and quality, runs a hair column, her putting on a successful hair expo, etc, speaks for itself and blames her texture on the lack attention/opportunities from companies.
> 
> *This particular video stems from her not being asked to be part hair events, the World National Hair Show in particular methinks, and not being given opportunities that less successful YouTubers are getting.*



I am trying to figure out what Youtube vloggers were invited to the hair show that might of sparked this. I saw some Youtube people there but they were just walking around like everybody else. I didn't see them speak, give a seminars etc unless I missed it. The only one I saw doing this was Jenelle and she works with Shea Moisture.


----------



## DigitalRain (May 5, 2014)

Kind of off topic but how do some of yall sit and watch these people talk about their hair for so long?  

Traycee's video is 10 minutes of non stop talking. I couldn't do it.


----------



## 1QTPie (May 5, 2014)

I only read the first page, so forgive me.


#1, she talks too fast, and she doesn't enunciate.  
#2, she cannot depend upon other people to make her feel pretty or included.

There is an entire forum dedicated to _napptural_ hair.   She should check it out, it's been around for almost 20 years!  

With that said, there will always be preferences and biases in the hair community.  She doesn't even seem to really like her hair. It's strange.   


You all say that she's pretty popular though so I'm not understanding the complaint. There are a couple of pretty big YouTubers (NikkiMae is one) that have similar hair to hers, post less and are doing really well in the view department and sponsorships.  YouTube success is not overnight for everyone. I can only think of maybe two hair-oriented YTers that have had overnight success (ItsmyRayeRaye is one.)  These people grind. And some of them are on their second or third channel and blog because they had to rethink and revamp their image.  It takes work, networking, yes-work and sometimes butt-kissing.  It's about who you know, and a great personality.


Also, IMO, length is what moves people to click more than texture.  Curly hair is everywhere. People seem to be more fascinated by long hair no matter the texture.


----------



## oneastrocurlie (May 5, 2014)

DigitalRain said:


> Kind of off topic but how do some of yall sit and watch these people talk about their hair for so long?
> 
> Traycee's video is 10 minutes of non stop talking. I couldn't do it.



Lol. I have a 1 min attention span with YouTube videos in general. I look for the shortest video I can find. And I'm visual so I often put them on mute. I'm a weirdo.


----------



## MileHighDiva (May 5, 2014)

Mahogony7 said:


> Wait, people are the verge of tears over something they have control oferplexed?! If you feel that strongly why even do it? It's not like someone is forcing her hand. If she enjoys her relaxed hair then she should stay relaxed.





Dreamn said:


> Yes, can someone answer why she's going natural?





kandake said:


> I agree.  I don't see the point, unless she has some sort of condition that prohibits her from continuing with relaxers.  If it causes you that much anxiety that you're in tears(or near tears) just keep the doggone relaxer.
> 
> People act so strange about this natural vs. relaxed thing.



I was wondering about that too, so I looked at her last two relaxer update videos and she has been getting scalp burns and scabs.


----------



## BostonMaria (May 5, 2014)

nubiennze said:


> Just watched Traycee's video, and to me she seemed more emotional about having cut so much of her hair than anything. She faltered right when she mentioned her hair being the shortest it's ever been since she started her hair journey, and she was adamant about not big chopping/never wanting short hair.
> 
> I found her issues with relaxing relatively straightforward: she was experiencing too much burning and didn't want to have to do it anymore. She said she's been natural as an adult and knows what to expect, but initially relaxed to combat shrinkage (again, presumably to show length).
> 
> I think she's primarily experiencing length apprehension, but if she did it once, she can do it again. I'm sure she'll be just fine.



Tracee SNEEZES and her hair grows 3 inches LOL  I hope she's reading this! 
She used to be a member here.  I'm used to having long hair now. If I cut it back to BSL you better believe I'll be upset and will cry my butt off.  

I can understand being scared of losing subscribers because the relaxed hair ladies might stop visiting her channel.  On the other hand, she will probably gain a bunch of subscribers that have type 4 hair.  I subscribe to people that are interesting. Heck I used to subscribe to her and my hair is not texlaxed LOL  I just like hair.


----------



## 1QTPie (May 5, 2014)

DigitalRain said:


> Kind of off topic but how do some of yall sit and watch these people talk about their hair for so long?
> 
> Traycee's video is 10 minutes of non stop talking. I couldn't do it.



 This is how I do internet all day long.  

I press play, let it load.  Watch about 30 seconds, then I go do some work and let it play in the background. I can take in most of what someone is saying without giving it my full attention.  IF, they say a ton of things that interest me, I will pause it and some times put it in watch later.  It can take me a full hour to watch one 10 minute video.   I also have like 50 tabs open, so I can revisit a video several times during the week that I started and never finished. (I don't advise this, as it eats up your RAM.)   

But letting it play in the background is the only way I can watch any of the youtube families or vloggers who are long winded.  If it's something that I have to watch, like a makeup tutorial or hair tutorial, i just fast forward to the parts I want to see since it gives a little highlight when you hover over the video play bar.


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## Bette Davis Eyes (May 5, 2014)

Ogoma said:


> IMO the natural hair community is primarily made up of women with type 4 hair so who are we scolding? Ourselves? If there is a hierarchy, it is one reinforced by the very women that are claiming to be at the bottom. BGLH did an article a while ago about something similar to this. She was advised to put women with curlier hair on her website to attract black women with kinky hair.
> 
> Now to Joulezy's point: I get why she is upset. This preference for less kinky hair impacts her money. I would be pissed if I were her. I am not sure what the solution is because she cannot force people to like or cater to her hair type. Videos like this might get those companies to examine themselves or guilt people into hiring her. I kind of like her snarky self.
> 
> I like Curl Junkie, but it seems pretty clear to me this company is not catering to kinkier hair types. She has a ton of products that work for a lot of hair types/patterns, but don't expect to see kinkier hair types or black women in ads for her company or the front page of her website. That is not the core consumer she is chasing. A business gets to set who her core customers are, what products she is creating, and how she is marketing it. What would be the point of getting pissed at Curl Junkie for not featuring kinkier hairstyles when it is not her targeted audience?



 And I find that weird that a lot of folks think curl junkie isnt for them because they dont see kinky models on the website.  Actually I find it weird when any website is like that.   Marsha has a mixture of 4a/3c hair(owner).  I'm a tightly kinky 4a  and I stan for curl Junkie.  I put her up on a combo of her products that works for my hair and her own hair loved it as well.

 I also like Ouidad and products that type 3s tend to love.


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## kandake (May 5, 2014)

DigitalRain said:


> Kind of off topic but how do some of yall sit and watch these people talk about their hair for so long?
> 
> Traycee's video is 10 minutes of non stop talking. I couldn't do it.



If you're likeable, funny and I've followed your hair journey, I'll sit and listen to you talk.


----------



## Ogoma (May 5, 2014)

shawnyblazes said:


> And I find that weird that a lot of folks think curl junkie isnt for them because they dont see kinky models on the website.  Actually I find it weird when any website is like that.   Marsha has a mixture of 4a/3c hair(owner).  I'm a tightly kinky 4a  and I stan for curl Junkie.  I put her up on a combo of her products that works for my hair and her own hair loved it as well.
> 
> I also like Ouidad and products that type 3s tend to love.



What hair type the owner does or does not have is not really the point. As I mentioned in my comments, her hair products work for many hair types (and not just those she features). 

But there is no two ways about it, a company advertises to their target audience. How does it make sense to want to target kinky haired women, but never advertise to them. How do you plan to reach them? She has no problem advertising to other women so no other explanation makes sense to me. As I noted, it is her company and she gets to make those choices.

I like some Ouidad products and she directs marketing at kinky haired women much more than Curl Junkie does so not sure how you are connecting the two with my comment. My comment had nothing to do with what type 3s like.


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## Misseyl (May 5, 2014)

I just recently chopped off my relaxed ends so that I can grow healthy natural hair and I'll be darn if I am gonna worry about what other people are thinking, especially about which type of curly I'm supposed to be in love with.  Isn’t that the same thing we were doing when we relaxed our hair - how straight it was supposed to be.  Natural, means exactly that, natural, no chemicals.  So if you decide to go natural, appreciate what you have and keep it moving because I've just got into this natural hair thing and I'll be darn if I'm gonna let anyone rain on my parade.  Imagine, living all your life not knowing what your hair actually looks like.  I’ve seen so many full bodied, coiled and textured natural hair online that I’m wondering what took me so long to come on board.  Our ancestors tied and fried their hair to oblivion and now we were doing the same thing until something called the internet came along and people started sharing ideas about the science of hair, hair products and techniques.  Now that this generation is more enlightened, we need to do what black people do which is to know ourselves and learn about our hair. I feel so liberated right now because I'm leaving relaxers alone and I’m beginning to form a more personal relationship with this thing I call my hair.


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## Bette Davis Eyes (May 5, 2014)

Ogoma said:


> What hair type the owner does or does not have is not really the point. As I mentioned in my comments, her hair products work for many hair types (and not just those she features).
> 
> But there is no two ways about it, a company advertises to their target audience. How does it make sense to want to target kinky haired women, but never advertise to them. How do you plan to reach them? She has no problem advertising to other women so no other explanation makes sense to me. As I noted, it is her company and she gets to make those choices.
> 
> I like some Ouidad products and she directs marketing at kinky haired women much more than Curl Junkie does so not sure how you are connecting the two with my comment. My comment had nothing to do with what type 3s like.



My comment wasnt directed at you to correct you or your response.  It was just thoughts that were typed after I read what you typed.


----------



## PJaye (May 5, 2014)

DigitalRain said:


> Kind of off topic but how do some of yall sit and watch these people talk about their hair for so long?
> 
> Traycee's video is 10 minutes of non stop talking. I couldn't do it.




This is why I cannot get into the YT thing.  I find it ultra annoying to have someone talking at me through a camera for 20 minutes.


----------



## xxinsanexxchels (May 5, 2014)

BostonMaria said:


> I'm 3C and feel frustrated with my hair and feel like all these products are for 4A hair.... but I'm probably seeing things from my perspective only so I do believe the article.
> 
> Don't know who this lady is but giving up isn't the solution.


I'm 3C with some 4A kitchen and I feel the same. left out a lot as a natural esp products I am a pj because I HAVE to try the products because type 4 products don't work for my hair. Too greasy make my hair too stringy or heavy. I've felt underrepresented in the natural hair community but a "perfect 4A twist out can easily looks like a 3C wng" 3s don't get all the love either.


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## BlaqKitty (May 5, 2014)

I didn't realize people picked products based on their curl pattern, honestly. :/


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## Amarilles (May 5, 2014)

*Frisky* said:


> I am trying to figure out what Youtube vloggers were invited to the hair show that might of sparked this. I saw some Youtube people there but they were just walking around like everybody else. I didn't see them speak, give a seminars etc unless I missed it. The only one I saw doing this was Jenelle and she works with Shea Moisture.


Ah good question, I've no idea though. It isn't the first time Jouelzy is vocal about perks that less successful YouTubers are privy to but as far as this particular show, I've no clue who else might've been invited. They don't mention anyone in particular on their website, as far as I can see.


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## nubiennze (May 5, 2014)

BlaqKitty said:


> I didn't realize people picked products based on their curl pattern, honestly. :/



This. I didn't get any real traction with my regimen until I factored in porosity. To this day I have yet to fit my hair into a specific type--not that it's mattered.


----------



## Mahogony7 (May 5, 2014)

BlaqKitty said:


> I didn't realize people picked products based on their curl pattern, honestly. :/



Exactly! And I find this to be ridiculous because hair is all about experimentation and you are limiting yourself. Why put a label on your hair? We have had numerous discussions about buying products that weren't marketed towards our race or the effects of products on our hair and body marketed towards our race.

We basically came to the conclusion that lots of these products worked for us and quite well. Aveda, Kerastase, Wen and many other brands, so why should we limit ourselves with natural brands? I remember watching one of her videos and she was using some Creme that had a type 4 hair label on it. Get out of here with nonsense. Before we had straight, curly or frizzy, now we putting hair types on products? And our people are the ones doing it! I just can not and wil not get behind that foolishness.


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## BlaqKitty (May 5, 2014)

Yep. I look at the ingredients now to know if my hair is gonna like something or if it's gonna work well, and I know my hair likes heavy butters and moisturizers.


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## grownwomanaz (May 5, 2014)

This is disappointing. Some of my favorite naturals are 4a-4c.


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## ezina (May 5, 2014)

This may not be a particularly popular response but I take issue with some comments saying that they feel descriminated against for having looser hair types. I get it; it's one's personal experience and I can't tell someone that their feeling is invalid or whatever. However, in *my opinion*, complaining that you have a looser hairtype is like complaining about having a light complexion or being skinny. Why? Because these characteristics are valued highly in our society. So while the skinny girl may get made fun of and told to "eat a burger" or a light-skinned girl is shunned by a group of darkskinned girls because they assume she's "uppity" or a line of products seems to work only for kinkier textured curls as opposed to looser curls, let's face it; it's not on the same level if the reverse happened (i.e. a fat girl is made fun of for eating a burger; a darkskinned girl is made to feel ignored by light skinned girls because of her skin color; a kinkier textured girl is upset a line of products seems to work more for looser textured).

Context seriously matters. We are bombarded everyday by media and other things telling us a certain standard of beauty is valued, and the closer we are to it, the more we are valued. Sure, everyone gets a wrench thrown at them. That's fine and that's how life works. But when a wrench is thrown at you systemically, that is a much bigger problem (this is why reverse-racism is a fantasy). Suddenly, those little micro-aggressions against you aren't so "micro". For this reason, I get Jouelzy, even though her YouTube delivery may not have been the best.

I hope I make sense. This wasn't meant to offend anyone.


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## ezina (May 5, 2014)

Amarilles said:


> Jouelzy herself explains that her personality isn't for everyone and that her writing is much more accessible, as are her tutorial videos because her personality takes a backseat. It's not about her not fully accepting her texture, in my opinion is all the contrary and she wants to open up eyes as to what *is* her texture versus what it's not. As per her videos, she's been there done that with trying to make her hair do what it naturally doesn't.
> 
> I personally understand where she's coming from. She's saying that it takes work to put out quality videos (as far as lighting, camera, technique, etc), it takes work and dedication to acquire a large amount of subscribers and views, yet she isn't compensated in the same way some people with a lesser quality and less subscribers/views might. She blames this on a texture preference. She isn't talking about no love period for type 4 YouTubers IMO, she's saying that quality + numbers should be yielding something greater. It should be math, it shouldn't be a texture preference.
> 
> But then again, I adore me some Jouelzy and I follow her very regularly. I get her.



I definitely agree. That's what I got from her video and article (the article explains it much better, though).


----------



## Foxglove (May 5, 2014)

BlaqKitty said:


> I didn't realize people picked products based on their curl pattern, honestly. :/



Not so much products, more styling. A 4c braidout won't come out looking like a 4a braidout. Also manipulation is different and you do have to make adjustments when detangling/styling 4a vs 4c. These are facts and not things tightly textured people are making up


----------



## Wildchild453 (May 5, 2014)

I just watched the video and she sounds jealous. Her article expresses her thoughts much better but in the video she seems like she's pissed she has to work hard for things she assumes she's entitled to.


----------



## BlaqKitty (May 6, 2014)

Foxglove said:


> Not so much products, more styling. A 4c braidout won't come out looking like a 4a braidout. Also manipulation is different and you do have to make adjustments when detangling/styling 4a vs 4c. These are facts and not things tightly textured people are making up



But people are mainly discussing products, and I'm a tightly textured natural my hair is 4a with some 3c, but all of my hair acts like type 4. I don't think I implied anyone was making things up. The universal rule for hair is to be gentle regardless of curl pattern.


----------



## kandake (May 6, 2014)

Wildchild453 said:


> I just watched the video and she sounds jealous. Her article expresses her thoughts much better but in the video she seems like she's pissed she has to work hard for things she assumes she's *entitled *to.



That's another main issue.  She thinks she's supposed to get things just because.

I mean she admitted that she started her channel for free hair.  And then got mad when she was getting as much as she thought she should get.   
I swear people are funny.


----------



## cami88 (May 6, 2014)

Her personality is off putting to me.


----------



## SophieDulce (May 6, 2014)

that's what I was about to say, its HER, not her hair.......


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## BlaqKitty (May 6, 2014)

From her video about her, she took it down but she was drinking in the video and I guess drunk. I reckon if I had a company I wouldn't want her representing me either. 

"-She admitted to pissing in the public streets of NYC because the public toilets are gross. 
-She would take a train to Whole Foods and eat the food from the hot bar without paying. She also buy containers of foundation from Sephora, empty them, and return the empty bottle to get her 3 dollars back...
-She will call the customer service centers for companies and keep them on the phone for 1hr + even though she knows they can't do anything for her."


----------



## Keen (May 6, 2014)

BlaqKitty said:


> From her video about her, she took it down but she was drinking in the video and I guess drunk. I reckon if I had a company I wouldn't want her representing me either.
> 
> "-She admitted to pissing in the public streets of NYC because the public toilets are gross.
> -She would take a train to Whole Foods and eat the food from the hot bar without paying. She also buy containers of foundation from Sephora, empty them, and return the empty bottle to get her 3 dollars back...
> -She will call the customer service centers for companies and keep them on the phone for 1hr + even though she knows they can't do anything for her."



Uhmmm... That's just TMI. So telling...


----------



## loved (May 6, 2014)

Haven't watched the video, I cosign everything faithVA had to say, especially this:



> As far as hair typing separating us, No. When I was 8 years old before there was such a thing as hair typing, I could clearly look around and see that the girl next door, and the girls across the street had hair that wasn't anything near like mine. My hair wasn't ever going to do that and wasn't ever going to be like that. Whether we put a label on our hair or not, we know early on our hair is different. I don't feel differently about my hair because it is now labeled 4 something. I knew it was 4 something all along. It didn't change anything. It did allow me to at least try to find some people who could probably help me.


 
With respect to Joulezy, even though we share hair type, I stopped following what she had to say because too much of it had nothing to do with  hair. With respect to YT videos, I rarely (if ever) watch videos that just talk about hair. I do a quick scan to check for pictures/tutorials, or something visual related to hair.


----------



## naturalmanenyc (May 6, 2014)

BlaqKitty

What in the world?  I don't follow her and had no idea.  No wonder she deleted that video.

Sephora doesn't sell $3 foundation.erplexed



BlaqKitty said:


> From her video about her, she took it down but she was drinking in the video and I guess drunk. I reckon if I had a company I wouldn't want her representing me either.
> 
> "-She admitted to pissing in the public streets of NYC because the public toilets are gross.
> -She would take a train to Whole Foods and eat the food from the hot bar without paying. She also buy containers of foundation from Sephora, empty them, and return the empty bottle to get her 3 dollars back...
> -She will call the customer service centers for companies and keep them on the phone for 1hr + even though she knows they can't do anything for her."


----------



## SoSwanky (May 6, 2014)

naturalmanenyc said:


> @BlaqKitty  What in the world? I don't follow her and had no idea. No wonder she deleted that video.  Sephora doesn't sell $3 foundation.erplexed


           Lol...ya'll so funny!  I saw that video and it is called the "Triffling facts". A few of the Youtubers are doing it.     I am a subbie of hers...I get it, but I can see both sides of it. Understanding that her particular hair type is may not be seen as "pretty of covetable" by many in natural hair and that they don't have very much representation. I can also see that she is upset that she has many followers and does videos which are time consuming and not getting the   recognition that she thinks she deserves. I have to say- I think that it is her attitude that is a big part of the problem. I have noticed in a lot of her videos, most recently her live google chat. She is snarky, as she admitted and often talks down to viewers. Sorry, but that is not attractive to most people or companies with events that want you to meet and greet people. She has even said that when people meet her in the street and can't actually remember her name and ask her, she will say that she is someone else. Don't know about you, but most companies that I know about are looking to be associated with  personable people. Being snarky maybe cool for some, but when it comes to mass market appeal, well, yeah...    One could try to tell her about it, but she will just go with "This is who I am, if you don't like me then IDGAF." That doesn't work when working for companies trying to sell products.  Just my 2cents...


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## all_1_length (May 6, 2014)

BlaqKitty said:


> From her video about her, she took it down but she was drinking in the video and I guess drunk. I reckon if I had a company I wouldn't want her representing me either.
> 
> 
> "-She admitted to pissing in the public streets of NYC because the public toilets are gross.
> ...



That was her 10+ Trifling Facts About Me video.


----------



## DoDo (May 6, 2014)

SoSwanky said:


> Lol...ya'll so funny!  I saw that video and it is called the "TMI Tag". A few of the Youtubers are doing it.
> 
> I am a subbie of hers...I get it, but I can see both sides of it. Understanding that her particular hair type is may not be seen as "pretty of covetable" by many in natural hair and that they don't have very much representation. I can also see that she is upset that she has many followers and does videos which are time consuming and not getting the
> recognition that she thinks she deserves. I have to say- I think that it is her attitude that is a big part of the problem. I have noticed in a lot of her videos, most recently her live google chat. She is snarky, as she admitted and often talks down to viewers. Sorry, but that is not attractive to most people or companies with events that want you to meet and greet people. She has even said that when people meet her in the street and can't actually remember her name and ask her, she will say that she is someone else. *Don't know about you, but most companies that I know about are looking to be associated with  personable people.* Being snarky maybe cool for some, but when it comes to mass market appeal, well, yeah...
> ...




^Exactly. It's called advertising and marketing. I don't understand why you would want a position without actually wanting to fulfill the job requirements. It's like applying to be a cashier and when asked if you work with registers and money you respond with "I'm not about that life. You need to get to know _me_ and how *I* do things if you want to work with me."

Um , I really don't think it works that way.


----------



## SunRai Naturals (May 8, 2014)

It's her personality. She is not likable. She talks fast, slurs her words, & she is snarky with no kind of charm or humor to counter it. Crass personalities can be popular but there has to be something about that person that the audience connects to.  Companies notice that. She should put her energy into creating her own opportunities.


----------



## BostonMaria (May 8, 2014)

BlaqKitty said:


> I didn't realize people picked products based on their curl pattern, honestly. :/



In the beginning I used to buy whatever the 3C hair idols were using. Fail!  Then I started buying products that I thought were for 4a hair.  Double fail!

So now I use products based on how moisturizing they are and the ingredients. My hair is happy LOL


----------



## Straighthoodtea (May 8, 2014)

ugh. It's stuff like this that irritates me. I want to time travel to 100 years in the future to see if we've gotten past this BS. On both sides, girls with kinkier hair hating on girls with looser hair and girls with kinkier hair being told through society that who they are and what they're born with isn't good enough. Everyone is DIFFERENT, NOT BETTER. Why cant people just accept that in move on? ugh!!


----------



## Priss Pot (May 9, 2014)

Foxglove said:


> Black Girl with Long Hair is more inclusive of more textures and actually I would say features more type 4s than type 3's. She also features a good number of 4b's and 4c's, more than anybody else I've seen in major blog land



I'm late, but yes, I love that blog!  That's the hair blog I visit most often.


----------



## Adiatasha (May 11, 2014)

I stopped following her because she's into wigs/weaves and her hair has been the same length for a long time and she doesn't address that. Maybe she doesn't want long hair.. But I do, so I follow/subscribe to those who are on THAT journey. 

I liked the information that she provided. It was informative and well thought out.
I guess I'm not on you tube for friends/family I just want information to do better.

As a 4c girl... I get where she's coming from.
But it doesn't bother me that other people covet other hair types.

I'm just glad I got some.


----------



## myronnie (May 12, 2014)

So I finally watched her video... I was ok a minute in, but then she started talking fast and I was immediately put off. She comes off as slightly scorned. I think that she is her worst enemy and her personality has set her back from going as far as she could have been. She talks poo about everything (I watched other vids) for no reason. And she seems insincere (extremely!!). Any videos with her and another vlogger are cringeworthy for me because I can tell by the body language that something is off.


----------



## faithVA (May 12, 2014)

Adiatasha said:


> I stopped following her because she's into wigs/weaves and her hair has been the same length for a long time and she doesn't address that. Maybe she doesn't want long hair.. But I do, so I follow/subscribe to those who are on THAT journey.
> 
> I liked the information that she provided. It was informative and well thought out.
> I guess I'm not on you tube for friends/family I just want information to do better.
> ...



You are right she did switch over to the wigs and weaves. I forgot about that spell. 

She was going along fine and something must have happened because she seemed to switch over all of a sudden. I wasn't really paying attention though. Hopefully she will stop before she ruins her challenge completely and can't get people back.


----------



## BostonMaria (May 12, 2014)

Not sure if she should share so much either
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhEovNVeZMQ

Just said that she got fired from Apple and that she has anxiety (see 3:40)
That's a bit much IMO if she wants to receive products from companies. Maybe have a separate account for just hair.


----------



## Soratachi (May 15, 2014)

A message from our favourite 4c guru 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vTOAuTCxus


----------



## GraceJones (May 15, 2014)

^^^She's talking about ya'll up in that lmao. This woman is off-putting though


----------



## luckiestdestiny (May 15, 2014)

GraceJones said:


> ^^^She's talking about ya'll up in that lmao. This woman is off-putting though



Insecure much? Her post was so unnecessary. Some people will like you some won't. Le shrug. Most of the comments weren't catty at all just opinions (which is what the internet is about).

 I really didn't care about her one way or another but was off put by her new youtube video. It just came off weird. Okay so you're drunk talking your audience. Mmmmkay. I guess.


----------



## mz.rae (May 15, 2014)

Soratachi said:


> A message from our favourite 4c guru
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vTOAuTCxus


I don't get why people are complaining about her personality, what's wrong with it? But then again I like people who have I don't give an F attitudes and are in your face about it. Her vulgarity is tame to me compared to someone like Himay where every other word is the F bomb. As far as the initial video and her blog post, I get what she is saying. I mean I'm still looking for type 4s on YouTube that straighten their hair regularly. All the ones I've found are type 3s which to me isn't the same when it comes to heat.


----------



## overtherainbow (May 15, 2014)

Soratachi said:


> A message from our favourite 4c guru
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vTOAuTCxus



Aww, now I feel bad for her. I couldn't get past the 3 minute mark, but she's clearly drunk (messy wig and everything.)And now I can't help but think if alcohol fueled her texture discrimination video. 
Anyway,  she's the least marketable youtuber I've ever seen.  Why are companies asking for product reviews? They should run!


----------



## BonBon (May 15, 2014)

I don't know of her but she reminds me of Qaadir Howard's personality on that vid.


----------



## CurlsOnFire23 (May 15, 2014)

Her mouth region is so.....eugh...


----------



## luckiestdestiny (May 15, 2014)

mz.rae said:


> I don't get why people are complaining about her personality, what's wrong with it? But then again I like people who have I don't give an F attitudes and are in your face about it. Her vulgarity is tame to me compared to someone like Himay where every other word is the F bomb. As far as the initial video and her blog post, I get what she is saying. I mean I'm still looking for type 4s on YouTube that straighten their hair regularly. All the ones I've found are type 3s which to me isn't the same when it comes to heat.



mz.rae  you need to keep searching. They exist and there are tons of 4s on youtube.

 One of my favorites (rip) is longhairdontcare2011 
 Her flat iron vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXzQ6YuSpK8

 Her journey:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6wFWeUg4r8

 Go search through hers. She passed this year from Lupus but is a wealth of growing out hair using heat for years and years before she experimented this year with no heat. And got it pretty long to boot before changing it up this year.

 This is why I am side eying the youtuber in question as there are many 4's (a, b, c) getting props and support on youtube.


----------



## mz.rae (May 15, 2014)

luckiestdestiny said:


> mz.rae  you need to keep searching. They exist and there are tons of 4s on youtube.
> 
> One of my favorites (rip) is longhairdontcare2011
> Her flat iron vid:
> ...



Thank you! I guess I should have clarified when I mean straighten, I mean straighten bone straight. The 4s that I have seen that use heat seem to only use it to an amount that the hair just looks like it has been blow dried or straightened lightly. I'm more so looking for a type 4s that straighten their hair like sistawithrealhair or the glamtwinz. But I will keep searching.


----------



## Mahogony7 (May 15, 2014)

Ok. I just watched and I have a few things to say.

1. She doesn't seem tipsy in the slightest to me, that's her normal personality. She looked cute in the video too.

2. Why does she assume that the people who find her personality brash are docile, religious and Tyler Perry characters?! Where did that come from? We were mainly saying that her delivery leaves a lot to be desired. Which is why companies are reluctant to do business with her.

3. Why are you not doing reviews? You never which company will be the next big thing and what opportunities will come from it. It just makes no sense at all to do such a thing, then make a video saying that you should be bigger and have more subserplexed 

4. Why are you giving away partially used products or incomplete trial bags? Come now one of the bags was missing the moisturizer. Moisturizer is everything! It comes right after conditioner.

I think she is funny and has a few good vids, but she needs to tone it down or just accept that companies find her to be brash.


----------



## SoSwanky (May 15, 2014)

Mahogony7 said:


> Ok. I just watched and I have a few things to say.
> 
> 1. She doesn't seem tipsy in the slightest to me, that's her normal personality. She looked cute in the video too.
> 
> ...




Yep to the bold. Like I stated before, I am a subbie to her and also to Himay10ence. For me/to me, it is a difference between the two. I know that women are assertive. Some of the more successful ones are assertive, but that assertive side is not for public consumption. That doesn't mean that they always make nice and are docile and such, but they know how and when, ya know? 
Also, why is it that when you are nice and "vanilla" that is not equal to smart (by some folks)? What is that about? Why is smart always liken to brash, talking out the side of the neck types? That is a stereo type that most women are trying to escape, no? Smart, intellectual, culturally aware, and nice are not mutually exclusive terms. We can be smart, aware, and not fit into a certain kind of box for any one kind of person/people. 

I could say a whole lot more, but going off on a tangent this morning....


----------



## NGraceO (May 15, 2014)

I like what she is saying, even on the video. 

I think what she is sharing is just an inconvenient truth shared by someone who is very emotionally tied to the issue.


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## cutiebe2 (May 15, 2014)

ugg. I hate when people get criticism and automatically say they have haters. I think she has a great personality but some people made some good points about her being TMI. You can be different and still get money. There are lots of YTers who have an edge and people love them, but they know to be careful of what they say. Tis all


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## PJaye (May 15, 2014)

Dear Whateveryournameis,

I still stand by my earlier assertions.  In light of your recent video, I strongly urge you to procure both a psychotherapist and a Life Coach in the very near future.

Signed, 

An assertive atheist who can smell the BS from a mile away


----------



## cami88 (May 15, 2014)

Her personality is super over the top and annoying. But she looks a lot better in this video than in the last.

Sent from my galaxy s4 using LHCF


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## rileypak (May 16, 2014)

Ok I don't have anything to add to the texture discrimination topic but I did watch this latest response video that was posted above. 
She is giving away a jar of product that she scooped half out of for herself... erplexed


----------



## uofmpanther (May 16, 2014)

Mahogony7 said:


> Ok. I just watched and I have a few things to say.
> 
> 1. She doesn't seem tipsy in the slightest to me, that's her normal personality. She looked cute in the video too.
> 
> ...



This.  Why does she have it out for Tyler Perry.  I don't like him that much, but you would think he personally wronged her.

Also, her rationale for not doing product reviews confused me.  I guess she'll explain further in the video about it.

I still like her, but her giveaways get the side eye


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## CrissieD (Jun 12, 2014)

mz.rae check out ciarahoneydip. She is type 4 natural and wears her hair super straight. She wears a lot of weaves now but she has some straightening vids on her channel


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## MsSanz92 (Jun 13, 2014)

ezina said:


> This may not be a particularly popular response but I take issue with some comments saying that they feel descriminated against for having looser hair types. I get it; it's one's personal experience and I can't tell someone that their feeling is invalid or whatever. However, in *my opinion*, complaining that you have a looser hairtype is like complaining about having a light complexion or being skinny. Why? Because these characteristics are valued highly in our society. So while the skinny girl may get made fun of and told to "eat a burger" or a light-skinned girl is shunned by a group of darkskinned girls because they assume she's "uppity" or a line of products seems to work only for kinkier textured curls as opposed to looser curls, let's face it; it's not on the same level if the reverse happened (i.e. a fat girl is made fun of for eating a burger; a darkskinned girl is made to feel ignored by light skinned girls because of her skin color; a kinkier textured girl is upset a line of products seems to work more for looser textured).
> 
> Context seriously matters. We are bombarded everyday by media and other things telling us a certain standard of beauty is valued, and the closer we are to it, the more we are valued. Sure, everyone gets a wrench thrown at them. That's fine and that's how life works. But when a wrench is thrown at you systemically, that is a much bigger problem (this is why reverse-racism is a fantasy). Suddenly, those little micro-aggressions against you aren't so "micro". For this reason, I get Jouelzy, even though her YouTube delivery may not have been the best.
> 
> I hope I make sense. This wasn't meant to offend anyone.



Thank you so much for this post!! ITA agree with Jouelzy's video and I like her crass delivery (because I can be the same to prove my point) but I do agree that it's not for everyone. People fail to realize that when you possess attributes that give you a privilege, like lighter skin, wealth, being physically fit, etc. that people who do not have such things might criticize you because they know that it doesn't matter how much they criticize you, you will always be on the winning end. Is it right? Not at all, but just know that the same people who might pick on someone who has looser hair or light skin because as a whole, society as a whole still puts them on a pedestal. While I do think that we as women with kinky/coarse type 4 need to learn what works best for our hair, how is that possible when the so-called "natural hair community" as inclusive as it claims to be still perpetuates the notion that curl definition and elongation is what all natural hair should look like? As someone who has transitioned multiple times, I know exactly the frustrations that Jouelzy talks about as far as marketing of natural hair products, and to be honest, the things that work best for me are not even products designed for or marketed specifically for natural hair. 

I had a similar discussion with my roommate earlier this year about assumptions and perceptions of Black women. My hair is naturally 4a/4b but I wear weaves most of the time, and my roommate's hair is 4a/4b too, but she wears her hair out in natural styles or braids most of the time. I'm dark skinned and she's light skinned with light eyes, however she made the point that men tend to be drawn to women like myself who wear their hair straightened or in long weaves because it's more of a conventional look. To be honest, based on what I've seen when we go out and how men on our campus fawn over her, I disagree with that. I think in general, most people, especially Black men have a preference for lighter skinned/looser haired women, and although she has type 4 hair, I think people are more willing to make a pass for someone like her because she has light skin and light eyes, as opposed to someone like myself who is darker skinned with traditional African features, even when I have a conventional hairstyle such as straightened hair or a weave. While I get her point that we still have eons to go for the general acceptance of natural especially type 4 natural hair on Black women, I think other factors contribute to what passes are given to people based on other aspects.


----------



## curlicarib (Jun 13, 2014)

Interestingly enough, this has not been my experience.  I've been natural my whole life.  When the natural hair movement got rolling, I happily looked through the internet for anything that would help me manage my hair.  Basically the only thing I could find, at the time, for my type 3 hair was Terry LeFlesh (sp?).  Everything else was for the type 4 naturals.  As time has passed, more type 3s have come out to play, but there is still LOTS of resources for the type 4s.


----------



## koolkittychick (Jun 13, 2014)

curlicarib said:


> Interestingly enough, this has not been my experience.  I've been natural my whole life.  When the natural hair movement got rolling, I happily looked through the internet for anything that would help me manage my hair.  Basically the only thing I could find, at the time, for my type 3 hair was Terry LeFlesh (sp?).  Everything else was for the type 4 naturals.  As time has passed, more type 3s have come out to play, but there is still LOTS of resources for the type 4s.


What do you mean by resources for type 4? because most of the resources I see are for ways to make type 4 hair look like type 3 hair, not how to have healthy type 4 hair.


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## curlicarib (Jun 13, 2014)

........................................


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## curlicarib (Jun 13, 2014)

koolkittychick said:


> What do you mean by resources for type 4? because most of the resources I see are for ways to make type 4 hair look like type 3 hair, not how to have healthy type 4 hair.


 

Sorry, I don't get into wether or not people are trying to make their type 4 hair look like another hair type, but if you google &quot;type 4 hair&quot; lots of reaources pop up.  About 232,000,000 results to be exact.


----------



## Jace032000 (Jun 13, 2014)

MsSanz92 said:


> Thank you so much for this post!! ITA agree with Jouelzy's video and I like her crass delivery (because I can be the same to prove my point) but I do agree that it's not for everyone. People fail to realize that when you possess attributes that give you a privilege, like lighter skin, wealth, being physically fit, etc. that people who do not have such things might criticize you because they know that it doesn't matter how much they criticize you, you will always be on the winning end. Is it right? Not at all, but just know that the same people who might pick on someone who has looser hair or light skin because as a whole, society as a whole still puts them on a pedestal. While I do think that we as women with kinky/coarse type 4 need to learn what works best for our hair, how is that possible when the so-called "natural hair community" as inclusive as it claims to be still perpetuates the notion that curl definition and elongation is what all natural hair should look like? As someone who has transitioned multiple times, I know exactly the frustrations that Jouelzy talks about as far as marketing of natural hair products, and to be honest, the things that work best for me are not even products designed for or marketed specifically for natural hair.
> 
> I had a similar discussion with my roommate earlier this year about assumptions and perceptions of Black women. My hair is naturally 4a/4b but I wear weaves most of the time, and my roommate's hair is 4a/4b too, but she wears her hair out in natural styles or braids most of the time. I'm dark skinned and she's light skinned with light eyes, however she made the point that men tend to be drawn to women like myself who wear their hair straightened or in long weaves because it's more of a conventional look. To be honest, based on what I've seen when we go out and how men on our campus fawn over her, I disagree with that. I think in general, most people, especially Black men have a preference for lighter skinned/looser haired women, and although she has type 4 hair, I think people are more willing to make a pass for someone like her because she has light skin and light eyes, as opposed to someone like myself who is darker skinned with traditional African features, even when I have a conventional hairstyle such as straightened hair or a weave. While I get her point that we still have eons to go for the general acceptance of natural especially type 4 natural hair on Black women, I think other factors contribute to what passes are given to people based on other aspects.



Hmmm…very interesting.  I'm dark-skinned (think Gabriel Union's skin tone) and my husband is very bright skinned (he's mixed with quite a few things). He too prefers that I wear my natural hair straight because like you mentioned, it's more conventional. However, he loves African features and loves when I step out in the sun and roast because to him it's very exotic.  Makes no sense right?  Anyhoo, I honestly think all men are different and are not as influenced by media as we think.


----------



## SunRai Naturals (Oct 13, 2014)

I'm not going to start a new thread about it but I recently posted a hair inspiration thread (Jo-Stylin) on Youtube. She is a 4b/4c very very long hair girl. The response was minimal compared to when I posted Teaundra on Youtube (curly to straight) video thread. It was even minimal compared to a recent thread about a 3b/c hair inspiration. That thread got double the responses. In my thread, I posted that Jo Stylin should have more subbies. I didn't say this in the post but I feel that the reason that she doesn't have more subscribers is texture discrimination within our own community. Someone mentioned that she stopped making hair vlogs for awhile and that may be partly why but if she was 3bc people would still be coming in droves.

I can wear my real hair out and people don't have anything positive to say but when I wear a curly wig I get tons of compliments. I think that it sucks and I wish that there was more support for my hair type on this board and IRL. Not that I am looking for affirmation from others because I'm not but sometimes it does feel like we are ignored. So I appreciate this vlog from Jouelzy.

I was on the fence about relaxing (not due to my hair type because I love my hair) but the properties (fine strands, low po, and tangly from root to tip). I've finally made a decision to stay natural because I do want to continue to learn how to care for and rep 4c hair.


----------



## blue_flower (Oct 13, 2014)

I agree with her article. I stopped watching the video after two minutes though. She talks too fast and rolls her eyes up to the ceiling too much.


----------



## DoDo (Oct 13, 2014)

SunRai Naturals said:


> I'm not going to start a new thread about it but I recently posted a hair inspiration thread (Jo-Stylin) on Youtube. She is a 4b/4c very very long hair girl. The response was minimal compared to when I posted Teaundra on Youtube (curly to straight) video thread. It was even minimal compared to a recent thread about a 3b/c hair inspiration. That thread got double the responses. In my thread, I posted that Jo Stylin should have more subbies. I didn't say this in the post but I feel that the reason that she doesn't have more subscribers is texture discrimination within our own community. Someone mentioned that she stopped making hair vlogs for awhile and that may be partly why but if she was 3bc people would still be coming in droves.
> 
> I can wear my real hair out and people don't have anything positive to say but when I wear a curly wig I get tons of compliments. I think that it sucks and I wish that there was more support for my hair type on this board and IRL. Not that I am looking for affirmation from others because I'm not but sometimes it does feel like we are ignored. So I appreciate this vlog from Jouelzy.
> 
> I was on the fence about relaxing (not due to my hair type because I love my hair) but the properties (fine strands, low po, and tangly from root to tip). I've finally made a decision to stay natural because I do want to continue to learn how to care for and rep 4c hair.



SunRai Naturals

I have to say I appreciate this post and that thank you is not enough .


----------



## Babygrowth (Oct 13, 2014)

This sounds just like me. My client (a lovely Caucasian woman) asked me why don't I go natural?  Won't it just curl up? I thought maybe it would lol. So I shaved my hair off when I was pregnant with my son and waited for the big curls to come but they didn't. I couldn't understand why my hair was always dry, why even with prepooing and a bottle of conditioner it was still hard to comb and keep moisture. Since then I have more than grown to love my babykinks but prefer to texturize 1-2x per year.


----------



## ronie (Oct 14, 2014)

SunRai Naturals said:


> I'm not going to start a new thread about it but I recently posted a hair inspiration thread (Jo-Stylin) on Youtube. She is a 4b/4c very very long hair girl. The response was minimal compared to when I posted Teaundra on Youtube (curly to straight) video thread. It was even minimal compared to a recent thread about a 3b/c hair inspiration. That thread got double the responses. In my thread, I posted that Jo Stylin should have more subbies. I didn't say this in the post but I feel that the reason that she doesn't have more subscribers is texture discrimination within our own community. Someone mentioned that she stopped making hair vlogs for awhile and that may be partly why but if she was 3bc people would still be coming in droves.  I can wear my real hair out and people don't have anything positive to say but when I wear a curly wig I get tons of compliments. I think that it sucks and I wish that there was more support for my hair type on this board and IRL. Not that I am looking for affirmation from others because I'm not but sometimes it does feel like we are ignored. So I appreciate this vlog from Jouelzy.  I was on the fence about relaxing (not due to my hair type because I love my hair) but the properties (fine strands, low po, and tangly from root to tip). I've finally made a decision to stay natural because I do want to continue to learn how to care for and rep 4c hair.


I see this a lot in the "post your hair right now" everyday thread. Someone with 3b 3c curls will get a million thanks for a picture of their hair in a wash and go or braids out. Someone with 4b 4 c will get a lousy 10 thanks.


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## CocoGlow (Oct 14, 2014)

I've been in the online natural hair community for almost 10 years and have definitely observed the texture discrimination over the years. 

In order for someone with very tightly coiled (4B/4C) texture to get a lot of attention, likes, followers, subscribers etc their hair has to be exceptionally long and/or dense and/or intricately styled 

Those with looser coils/curls can do the most basic of styles or have the shortest hair and get an overwhelming amount of love  - now of course if someone with this texture happens to do intricate styles or grow longer lengths their popularity will jump leaps and bounds above those with tighter coils possessing the same skills, length, etc. 

Thing is, we can't force people to admit they have this texture discrimination issue, most will get defensive and just call it a preference or say that those of us with tighter coils are just jealous or oversensitive  - we just have to rock our hair with confidence and openly express our love for natural hair of all textures, especially our own. We should respectfully challenge others when they spew ignorant phrases like "good hair" "bad hair" etc but I think that just seeing more and more of our sistas rocking our hair with pride and grace will help others to see/accept the beauty we see.

I don't really think that it's a conscious thing for most people but it is real. I do think that things are getting better and those of us with tighter coils are growing to genuinely love our hair and spread that love to others who share our texture who may/may not already love their hair as well. 

We are also learning to be innovative about how we take care of our hair and are no longer willing to accept the notion that to wear our hair natural means to suffer & struggle through all the while secretly wishing our hair was "more manageable" aka looser. 

We are learning how to think outside of the box to make our hair healthy and manageable without resorting to relaxers, texturizers, a lifetime of weaves and wigs, or certain styles like perpetually short afros or locs (I'm referring to those like me who have resorted to the low afro and locs multiple times in the past out of desperation and frustration - this doesn't apply to those who rock these styles out of choice and rock them beautifully).


----------



## DarkJoy (Oct 14, 2014)

ronie said:


> Someone with 4b 4 c will get a lousy 10 thanks.



If that


----------



## SophieDulce (Oct 14, 2014)

I just wanted to say there are a LOT of black women with 3c and loose 4a hair. Since everyone has been going natural I've noticed that a lot of us have loose curl patterns. I'm starting to think 4b hair isn't as common as a thought


----------



## faithVA (Oct 14, 2014)

SophieDulce said:


> I just wanted to say there are a LOT of black women with 3c and loose 4a hair. Since everyone has been going natural I've noticed that a lot of us have loose curl patterns. I'm starting to think 4b hair isn't as common as a thought



I am 4b and have noticed the same thing. 80% of the women in my personal circle have gone natural in the past 5 years and not a 4b among them.  I was very surprised.


----------



## CocoGlow (Oct 14, 2014)

SophieDulce said:


> I just wanted to say there are a LOT of black women with 3c and loose 4a hair. Since everyone has been going natural I've noticed that a lot of us have loose curl patterns. I'm starting to think 4b hair isn't as common as a thought



I've often wondered if this were true or could it be that the ones with tighter coils are the ones least likely to go natural in the first place? ... I mean when people grow up hearing that they "need" a relaxer" because their hair is too nappy it has a big impact, just like when others hear they have "soft" or "good" hair, they may be more inclined to go natural.

I can't count how many times I've read stories of new naturals rejoicing at the sight/feel of their curly new growth while transitioning and all the "pretty shiny coils" that they never knew they had and how this discovery made them so excited to start their natural journey  

Part of me wonders if these people would have continued with their transition or even decided to go through with the big chop if what they saw/felt were tighter coils that were not shiny or wavy or "soft"? How many women discover that they do not have "good hair" and choose to go back to the chemicals or what about those who know all along they they have tighter coils and therefore automatically dismiss the idea of going natural in the fist place?

*ETA: *Just wanted to add that even though I have been natural for a long time, meeting someone with coils that are as tight/small as mine is more of a rare occurrence than I expected  ... I see a LOT of 4A size coils/curls, some 3C & some 4B - I also see cottony and silky versions of these 3 main ones ... but this could be because 4B/4C is indeed a less common hair type or because those with my hair type are not going/staying natural for various reasons


----------



## SophieDulce (Oct 14, 2014)

CocoGlow said:


> I've often wondered if this were true or could it be that the ones with tighter coils are the ones least likely to go natural in the first place? ... I mean when people grow up hearing that they "need" a relaxer" because their hair is too nappy it has a big impact, just like when others hear they have "soft" or "good" hair, they may be more inclined to go natural.  I can't count how many times I've read stories of new naturals rejoicing at the sight/feel of their curly new growth while transitioning and all the "pretty shiny coils" that they never knew they had and how this discovery made them so excited to start their natural journey   Part of me wonders if these people would have continued with their transition or even decided to go through with the big chop if what they saw/felt were tighter coils that were not shiny or wavy or "soft"? How many women discover that they do not have "good hair" and choose to go back to the chemicals or what about those who know all along they they have tighter coils and therefore automatically dismiss the idea of going natural in the fist place?



I don't know that could be something though. I will say my hair only looks shiny and "soft" with product. So I'm thinking maybe it's been the amount of products catering to our hair ????? Almost all my friends are natural and I think only 2 have true 4b hair  and their hair is the longest.


----------



## greenandchic (Oct 14, 2014)

Over the past few years I've noticed fewer and fewer 4b/c Youtubers in general. The more popular one, KimmayTube received a lot of shade when she was more active. I constantly read, "her hair is too thin", "she's condescending", etc.   I never heard this about thin haired condescending 3c-ers.  I wonder if the general lack of popularity is driving some away from YT.  

In general, I never really see many women with natural 4 type hair.  Growing up if I did, it was usually on an older women with a TWA or someone who is locked.  My mother is 4b and either straightened her hair until she locked it 16 years ago or so.  She keeps it in a bob length because "its too nappy to wear it long".  SophieDulce - my mother is the only women on that side of the family with 4b hair.  Everyone else is 3b - 4a.


----------



## LadyRaider (Oct 14, 2014)

I always thought the hair typing was kind of stupid. Just because you have a certain size curl doesn't mean your hair is going to act the same as someone with the same size curl.


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## koolkittychick (Oct 14, 2014)

SophieDulce said:


> I just wanted to say there are a LOT of black women with 3c and loose 4a hair. Since everyone has been going natural I've noticed that a lot of us have loose curl patterns. I'm starting to think 4b hair isn't as common as a thought


Unfortunately, I would disagree with this, and correct it to say that there are a lot of Black women *who choose to wear their natural hair* with 3c and loose 4a hair. What I have seen is that many women will attempt to go natural, but once they figure out (as that famous meme says) that they don't have Tracy Ellis Ross' hair, or can't make their hair look like that without a lot of effort, they go right back to relaxers and weaves. Outside of this LHCF bubble, the overwhelming majority of Black women still wear relaxers, weaves or wigs, and there is a reason for that. Most women do not want to deal with the work that type 4 hair takes, especially for the (lack of) appreciation others give it over looser textures. Even Jouelzy--the YouTuber at the heart of this thread and creator of that video--has resorted to wearing wigs and weaves the majority of the time instead of growing and wearing her own hair.


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## Bibliophile (Oct 14, 2014)

I've seen that Tracie Ellis Ross meme in action at work.
A relaxed co-worker decided to BC. Two months later she wore wigs exclusively.  She relaxed at month 5. The reasons: Her 4B texture wasn't “nice". It is "hard" & her 12yo son told her he was ashamed of her. smh...my people :'(

Outside of the natural hair Mecca & Medina, (metro NYC & LA) the black people I've seen with 4B wear locs, twist/braid extensions or hair pieces.

Heat-trained naturals are minors & women over 60 in my area.

Sent from my SGH-T599N using LHCF


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## DarkJoy (Oct 15, 2014)

This is all so true.

Lots of 4b+ will weave it up so its a goid bet many of us really are super coiled. Most folk are not lhcf experts and cant tell the diff. The 3c extension texture has gotten so good folks are fooled into thinking its real at times. It happens to me when I decide to wear crochets.  Fools sisters all the time and I get many  compliments on such such "great hair" when in crochet PS mode . Nobody curr when I am contentedly rocking my 4x fro


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## Kaitlynrs91 (Oct 15, 2014)

koolkittychick said:


> . Even Jouelzy--the YouTuber at the heart of this thread and creator of that video--has resorted to wearing wigs and weaves the majority of the time instead of growing and wearing her own hair.





This!!!! I Lowkey things she don't really like her hair.. I mean dang let us know u trying to grow it out using wigs or something.. Honestly she makes me not like her hair


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## Mahogony7 (Oct 15, 2014)

I think Jo-stylin doesn't have many subbies due to her video quality. While I adore her hair I can't look at a poor video and the vids seemed slightly boring as well.


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## Evolving78 (Oct 16, 2014)

DarkJoy said:


> Yes, I like gritty and to the point but her video was... Off putting.  She is right tho. 2 years ago I couldn't find truly nappy vloggers. All the touted gurus were type 3s. It's gotten much better this last 12 months and I am mighty grateful


  I'm relaxed and have a hard time finding 4's stretch or transition! I am 4a.


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## Kurlee (Oct 16, 2014)

what is 4c? Never understood the addition. 4a = tightest curls and 4B = kinky with no curls, so what is 4c for?


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## Pompous Blue (Oct 16, 2014)

Kurlee said:


> what is 4c? Never understood the addition. 4a = tightest curls and 4B = kinky with no curls, so what is 4c for?


 It's not 4A or 4B. If you don't have 4C hair, it's hard for you to understand. I'm 4C.


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## naturalmanenyc (Oct 16, 2014)

Kurlee


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## faithVA (Oct 16, 2014)

Kurlee said:


> what is 4c? Never understood the addition. 4a = tightest curls and 4B = kinky with no curls, so what is 4c for?



4b's can have curls but they are just smaller than 4a curls. 4b curls are more pen spring size. 4a would be a bit larger than that. I am 4b.


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## MissMusic (Oct 16, 2014)

Kurlee said:


> what is 4c? Never understood the addition. 4a = tightest curls and 4B = kinky with no curls, so what is 4c for?


  All type 4's have curls/coils and waves, the 4b's have more frizz surrounding that pattern than 4a, and more frizz on 4c than 4b causing the hair to appear as though there is no pattern when shrunken, combed or brushed.  Sent from my iPad using LHCF


----------



## tinkat (Oct 16, 2014)

Kurlee said:


> what is 4c? Never understood the addition. 4a = tightest curls and 4B = kinky with no curls, so what is 4c for?



Me either. At first I thought people where saying it jokingly but then that term stuck after a while.


----------



## kikisf (Oct 16, 2014)

Some people say 4c is cottony. It has managed to gain currency as a real term. (all the other numbers of hair under Andre Walker system had 3 letters except 4 for some strange reason)  I sometimes use 4d to describe my hair because it dreads so easily. I know that isn't a real term but hopefully I will be able to find some hair-twins by using it.


----------



## Dilettante (Oct 16, 2014)

CocoGlow said:


> Thing is, we can't force people to admit they have this texture discrimination issue, most will get defensive and just call it a preference or say that those of us with tighter coils are just jealous or oversensitive
> 
> *I don't really think that it's a conscious thing for most people but it is real.*



I do think the unconscious aspect of the problem is a key piece here.  I think there are natural women (maybe a lot, maybe not) who are telling the world how much they love all hair textures, but their youtube and instagram follows tell a different story.  It isn't socially acceptable to admit that you prefer/wish you had more caucasian features, but plenty of women still do, even if they'd never ever say it.

There's a girl who says her sunscreen is for her health, but deep down just doesn't want to get darker.  There's a girl who swears her four hour max hydration method is for healthy hair, but really she just wants curls.  Are these people the majority?  Of course not.  Is wearing sunscreen or doing the MHM a bad thing?  Of course not.  But our posts and likes and 'preferences' (both real and defensive) don't exist in a vacuum - they intersect with an ongoing societal discussion about what's acceptable and the message rings loud and clear.

 now don't yell at me


----------



## HairBarbie (Oct 16, 2014)

Kurlee said:


> what is 4c? Never understood the addition. 4a = tightest curls and 4B = kinky with no curls, so what is 4c for?



Basically what used to be 4b is now 4c and what used to be 4a is now 4b.

A few years back 4a was classified differently than what it is now. In my opinion.


----------



## MissMusic (Oct 16, 2014)

HairBarbie, the system is forever changing. Type 4 is simply the kinkier on the spectrum, I think all of the little letters cause an unnecessary divide and stops people from trying techniques that may work for their hair as well as others all because they may not be "4a" or "4b," or "4c."


----------



## CocoGlow (Oct 16, 2014)

Dilettante said:


> I do think the unconscious aspect of the problem is a key piece here.  I think there are natural women (maybe a lot, maybe not) who are telling the world how much they love all hair textures, but their youtube and instagram follows tell a different story.  *It isn't socially acceptable to admit that you prefer/wish you had more caucasian features, but plenty of women still do, even if they'd never ever say it.*
> 
> *There's a girl who says her sunscreen is for her health, but deep down just doesn't want to get darker.  There's a girl who swears her four hour max hydration method is for healthy hair, but really she just wants curls. * Are these people the majority?  Of course not.  Is wearing sunscreen or doing the MHM a bad thing?  Of course not.  But our posts and likes and 'preferences' (both real and defensive) don't exist in a vacuum - they intersect with an ongoing societal discussion about what's acceptable and the message rings loud and clear.
> 
> now don't yell at me



Dilettante

You're right, so many people make excuses for the things they do so that they can benefit from certain side effects under the guise of doing something healthy- like what you mentioned about some people using sunscreen so that they won't get any darker not necessarily for sun protection. 

What is funny about the Max Hydration Method is that it can only bring out the coils or curls that you naturally have (and we *all *have curls/coils or waves unless we have Type 1 hair). So one cannot "get curls" with it if they didn't already have curls to begin with. Defined or clumped coils/curls are a side-effect of the hydration and a great way to gauge your level of hydration (starts at the ends and goes from root to tip once achieved). 

The Afro is simply an undefined mass of those same coils/curls- a lot of us have been taught that the afro is just our natural hair texture when in reality it is what our texture looks like when not properly hydrated. We now know that the afro, like twists or braids is a style choice, not a texture.   We can be just as proud of our natural hair with a piked out & patted down afro, a twist-out/braid-out/bantu knot-out/roller-set (which produces a different curl/wave pattern than our natural pattern), a stretched blow-out look from using african threading or a blow dryer, or a defined wash n go. Neither one is more "natural" than the other or implies more self-love or self-hate.  

Naturalistas have been molding our hair into "curls & waves" for years with twist-outs/braid-outs because they are beautiful styles and because they allow us to stretch our hair - no one ever claimed this was a from of self-hate or a subconscious attempt to make our hair something it is not.  So if someone jumps on the MHM bandwagon with the intentions of bringing out or defining their natural coils/curls as opposed to their undefined (read: tangled) afro, that is not the same as wearing sunscreen so that you won't get darker. It is simply hydrating your hair with one of the side-effects being a healthier way to wear our hair in it's shrunken state without worrying about tangles & single strand knots (the clumped coils/curls no longer interweave & wrap around each other). We are still free to stretch our hair with twists, braids, etc but those styles are now just another styling choice not a mandatory step after washing.

I personally love afros and other natural styles, but if another sistah does the MHM and only chooses to wear her hair in a defined wash n go, now that she can, that does not make her someone who desires more caucasian features. Her teeny tiny 4B or 4C coils will never make her look closer to "white" no matter if they are defined from root to tip. The big round undefined Afro has been associated with "blackness" for so long and as gorgeous and unique as it is - it is no more "black" than a defined wash n go. In fact, the more hydrated her 4B or 4C hair becomes, the more she would actually have to comb or pik those coils out to achieve the undefined Afro cloud - how is that more "natural"? 

I know this is a little (OK a LOT ) off topic & long-winded but I wanted to clear that up because I think a lot of people have misconceptions about the MHM and the intentions of those who do it.


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## Kurlee (Oct 17, 2014)

HairBarbie said:


> Basically what used to be 4b is now 4c and what used to be 4a is now 4b.
> 
> A few years back 4a was classified differently than what it is now. In my opinion.





tinkat said:


> Me either. At first I thought people where saying it jokingly but then that term stuck after a while.



 I just think it's extra. Simplicity is necessary. All the minutia is just exhausting.


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## Ogoma (Oct 17, 2014)

kikisf said:


> Some people say 4c is cottony. It has managed to gain currency as a real term. (all the other numbers of hair under Andre Walker system had 3 letters except 4 for some strange reason)  I sometimes use 4d to describe my hair because it dreads so easily. I know that isn't a real term but hopefully I will be able to find some hair-twins by using it.



There was no 3c either in Andre's original system.


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## CocoGlow (Oct 17, 2014)

Ogoma said:


> There was no 3c either in Andre's original system.



Exactly! Originally the 3C category did not exist and those who felt that their curls were smaller than 3B but larger than 4A felt that they needed to add another category. Some people felt that they were being tedious and that we should leave the system as is, but eventually it was accepted because it makes sense. No one even questions it today and many do not even know that it was not a part of the original system.

What I want to know is: Why is there sooooo much resistance to accepting the 4C category? The backlash seems to be a bit extra in my opinion and it makes me think there is something more to it. 

Also, why should we act like the original hair typing system created by some random old school hairstylist (famous for doing Oprah's hair) is the end all be all authority on hair types and that it should never be questioned or amended? 

Honestly his system only takes into consideration curl/coil size & nothing else - but there are so many other important factors involved with our hair (density, strand thickness, porosity, texture: cottony/silky, etc,etc) - so why are we so quick to hold on to the original system?

Even if you think it's an unnecessary category or not "real", is it hurting anybody?


----------



## tinkat (Oct 17, 2014)

I don't think it's about resisting anything...there's nothing wrong in asking a simple question. This is coming from someone who has kinky hair and I remember the original system but as time has progress I have learned that hair typing is pointless bc my hair is a mixture of the "4 type" which I love. My coils are a variety of kinks and coils and its healthiest state it's tightly coiled.


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## CocoGlow (Oct 17, 2014)

tinkat said:


> *I don't think it's about resisting anything...there's nothing wrong in asking a simple question.* This is coming from someone who has kinky hair and I remember the original system but as time has progress *I have learned that hair typing is pointless bc my hair is a mixture of the "4 type" which I love.* My coils are a variety of kinks and coils and its healthiest state it's tightly coiled.



tinkat

I hope I don't come across too defensive sis, I've been around a long time and notice trends, but I'm sorry if it came across like I was negatively accusing everyone asking questions about the existence of 4C hair. 

 

Fortunately you may not be familiar with the resistance but I remember when the term 4C first came out and people have been sort of rolling their eyes ever since LOL . Some people ask genuine questions and others are very dismissive on forums, blogs and Youtube. People didn't side-eye the "need" for a 3C category nearly as much. 

I think some people have a negative reaction to it because they assume people are trying to "out-napp" others or labeling their hair with a complaining spirit like "Girl I got them 4C-4ZZZZZ napps - the worst of the worst!" Some do feel that way though  but not all - some simply wanted a category that best represented their hair.

True, most of us have a mixture of hair types & textures on our heads with one of them usually being the dominant one but I feel like the hair typing systems are just tools to find others with hair that may look similar to ours and get some style inspiration. So while I don't think it is a pointless system, I don't think it is the biggest factor in natural hair care either - not even close


----------



## mssoconfused (Oct 17, 2014)

A little off topic...I went to a natural hair event last night and there was one lady in the group that was transitioning. She had NO idea how to take care of her hair and was noticing a lot of breakage along her line of demarcation. The curl expert, a hairdresser, speaker suggested she get one of those texture manageability systems for her transition in order to straighten her hair. All I could think was...but...isnt the point....never mind.


----------



## cutiebe2 (Oct 17, 2014)

I remember when 4C or "c-napp" came out, it somehow was made out to be some strange revolutions/extremist type thing. As if some women just went AWOL on what we had established was natural hair textures. That could also just be my interpretation. 

As I read more about 4c, I am confused on what my hair is. My hair has ALWAYS be described as cottony, when I was young hair dressers and everyone said my hair looked like cotton. At the same time it is very soft, thin, and fine so I don't connect to the coarse hair texture that most women have. Either way I don't say I have curly hair, because I have very few curls.


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## niknakmac (Oct 17, 2014)

4c is real. Whether you understand it or not it does exist.  It has zero curl more of a z pattern and does not wash n go no matter how much MHM you try to use b/c there isn't a curl.  DD has apl stretched 4c.  Unstretched it is about ear length.  This category was simply created for those who did not fit into the already existing categories.  I don't see what is so confusing about this.  I see truly 4c hair all over pinterest.


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## ckisland (Oct 17, 2014)

sweetnikki_6 said:


> 4c is real. Whether you understand it or not it does exist.  It has zero curl more of a z pattern and does not wash n go no matter how much MHM you try to use b/c there isn't a curl.  DD has apl stretched 4c.  Unstretched it is about ear length.  This category was simply created for those who did not fit into the already existing category.  I don't see what is so confusing about this.  I see truly 4c hair all over pinterest.



Thank you!!!
4c isn't dry 4b. The assumption that your hair isn't clumping together because your doing something wrong and because it's not moisturized to the max, has caused continue frustration among naturals who's hair won't do that. That's why the new category was created, and that's why ladies went (supposedly) hard for it.

A kink and a curl aren't actually the same thing. One can exist without the other. Most of my hair clumps. The level of clump varies, and much work areas need in order to clump varies, but I have patches that will not clump (without twisting or braiding). It doesn't clump while slathered in condish. It doesn't clump no matter how much gel I put on it. I have 4b sections, and I can get tiny coils there. But these 4c patches aren't dry, they're just pure kink.


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## *Frisky* (Oct 17, 2014)

sweetnikki_6 said:


> 4c is real. Whether you understand it or not it does exist.  It has zero curl more of a z pattern and does not wash n go no matter how much MHM you try to use b/c there isn't a curl.  DD has apl stretched 4c.  Unstretched it is about ear length.  This category was simply created for those who did not fit into the already existing category.  I don't see what is so confusing about this.  I see truly 4c hair all over pinterest.



I think 4c can wash and go with the processes like everybody else it will just look different like you said. More of a z pattern instead of a curl or the curl is so tight you can't really see it. I don't know why people get so butt hurt if someone wants to classify their hair has 4c but I do see people saying their hair is 4c and it's not. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


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## Kaitlynrs91 (Oct 17, 2014)

Y'all make me curious about my own hair.. I did 1 wash n go in my life and I've been natural about 7-8 years.. However I live in perpetual heat damage lol one day I'll see all my hair damage free and then I'll see my hair for what it is. Anyways i also see 4c hair quite a bit actually. But I understand wanting to have all options being available to you when your natural. Otherwise some people will question the purpose of going natural in the first place


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## Crackers Phinn (Oct 17, 2014)

cutiebe2 said:


> I remember when 4C or "c-napp" came out, it somehow was made out to be some strange revolutions/extremist type thing. As if some women just went AWOL on what we had established was natural hair textures. That could also just be my interpretation.



I agree.  From jump 4C was marketed as the 'Keep it real in the struggle' hair.  It's the roughest-toughest, rootinest-tootitinest, most ornery hair in this game son! (said in Dave Chappelle black president voice).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have 4a/b hair that dries out quick and ties itself in multiple knots on a single strand when I wear it loose. Tried wearing it loose on and off for 6 years and ended up having to cut off more length than I should have had to.   So now I flat twist it, spritz it, throw a wig on and call it a day. 

The default thought about naturals wearing wigs is self hate, but it's a lie that natural hair is easy to deal with.     Knots are not natural.  Knots cause tangling and breakage.  Knots do not make the hair stronger.   Telling people to embrace knots is like telling them to embrace jagged fingernails.  But it all gets stirred up in this self hate/wannabe white pot, which is unfair and unhelpful.


----------



## BillsBackerz67 (Oct 18, 2014)

Crackers Phinn said:


> I agree.  From jump 4C was marketed as the 'Keep it real in the struggle' hair.  It's the roughest-toughest, rootinest-tootitinest, most ornery hair in this game son! (said in Dave Chappelle black president voice). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  I have 4a/b hair that dries out quick and ties itself in multiple knots on a single strand when I wear it loose. Tried wearing it loose on and off for 6 years and ended up having to cut off more length than I should have had to.   So now I flat twist it, spritz it, throw a wig on and call it a day.  The default thought about naturals wearing wigs is self hate, but it's a lie that natural hair is easy to deal with.     Knots are not natural.  Knots cause tangling and breakage.  Knots do not make the hair stronger.   Telling people to embrace knots is like telling them to embrace jagged fingernails.  But it all gets stirred up in this self hate/wannabe white pot, which is unfair and unhelpful.



Crackers Phinn same struggle but I'm in the type 3 category. The only thing that solves my dryness, breakage and severe knotting issue is frequently trimming which I refuse to do, relaxing, or staying natural and flat ironing every 2 weeks.


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## FemmeFatale (Oct 18, 2014)

Interesting thread, yes 4C hair is real and exists. I have 4b/c hair and I'm texlaxed because it makes my life much easier. It is super course, dense, and thick with low porosity. Some similar to Rudy Huxtable's hair when she was a kid, maybe a wee less dense. 

Now Is there a huge market out there for pure 4c hair? Barely. Most naturals chase curls. My baby sister has my dads 3C/4A hair and her hair stash knocks me out the water! Lol.


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## tinkat (Oct 18, 2014)

Well based on the descriptions of 4a 4b 4c, I have all three in my hair. One thing I have learned is that you have to really learn what works for you. I also learned that I have to treat certain areas of my hair differently. Thanks to YouTube and websites, i have learned some great tips and do agree that there are not as many 4 type on YouTube, etc.


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## Kurlee (Oct 18, 2014)

sweetnikki_6 said:


> 4c is real. Whether you understand it or not it does exist.  It has zero curl more of a z pattern and does not wash n go no matter how much MHM you try to use b/c there isn't a curl.  DD has apl stretched 4c.  Unstretched it is about ear length.  This category was simply created for those who did not fit into the already existing categories.  I don't see what is so confusing about this.  I see truly 4c hair all over pinterest.



thanks for the explanation.  My confusion is that it sounds like how 4b used to be described, so I'm like


----------



## tinkat (Oct 18, 2014)

Kurlee said:


> thanks for the explanation.  My confusion is that it sounds like how 4b used to be described, so I'm like



I was thinking the same thing.


----------



## almond eyes (Oct 18, 2014)

I really hate hair typing but I can see how it can be helpful to some but not me, my hair is a a true combo of spongey and curly curls. My hair can be a surprise especially depending on what products I put on my hair and if my hair has a good moisture routine going on. And my natural hair when it is short you can't see any curl formation and when it is begins to hang the curl formation is obvious. I am more interested in conquering hair porosity and so far I have begun to understand how to do this. The parts of my hair that are the so called '4c' are in the front edges.

I remember a Kenyan woman calling my hair that strange hair texture that she couldn't stand because she felt that good African hair was tightly coiled with no obvious curl pattern. Mine she was was funny hair. I was like we are always as human beings finding a divide. 

Best,
Almond Eyes


----------



## LadyRaider (Apr 15, 2015)

Dilettante said:


> I do think the unconscious aspect of the problem is a key piece here.  I think there are natural women (maybe a lot, maybe not) who are telling the world how much they love all hair textures, but their youtube and instagram follows tell a different story.  It isn't socially acceptable to admit that you prefer/wish you had more caucasian features, but plenty of women still do, even if they'd never ever say it.
> 
> There's a girl who says her sunscreen is for her health, but deep down just doesn't want to get darker.  There's a girl who swears her four hour max hydration method is for healthy hair, but really she just wants curls.  Are these people the majority?  Of course not.  Is wearing sunscreen or doing the MHM a bad thing?  Of course not.  But our posts and likes and 'preferences' (both real and defensive) don't exist in a vacuum - they intersect with an ongoing societal discussion about what's acceptable and the message rings loud and clear.
> 
> now don't yell at me


This is an old thread, but the new message board  software decided I needed an alert about it, so I thought I'd pass on the good fortune. 

Black people do not wear sunscreen to keep from getting darker. You wear it to keep from getting dark spots!!! Please wear your sunscreen. A little gay man in Sephora told me that, and it changed my life.


----------



## ForestRose (Apr 15, 2015)

Gonna add to this too lol. Always wear sunscreen and don't buy into the myth that black people can't get sun burnt.


----------



## Evolving78 (Apr 15, 2015)

mssoconfused said:


> A little off topic...I went to a natural hair event last night and there was one lady in the group that was transitioning. She had NO idea how to take care of her hair and was noticing a lot of breakage along her line of demarcation. The curl expert, a hairdresser, speaker suggested she get one of those texture manageability systems for her transition in order to straighten her hair. All I could think was...but...isnt the point....never mind.


I like those! They are very helpful with managing the two textures. You aren't confusing that with a texturizer are you?


----------



## BostonMaria (Apr 15, 2015)

mssoconfused said:


> A little off topic...I went to a natural hair event last night and there was one lady in the group that was transitioning. She had NO idea how to take care of her hair and was noticing a lot of breakage along her line of demarcation. The curl expert, a hairdresser, speaker suggested she get one of those texture manageability systems for her transition in order to straighten her hair. All I could think was...but...isnt the point....never mind.



Sorry I'm responding one year later LOL 

This is why I stopped taking advice and instead paid attention to what my hair liked/disliked. How awful of that hairdresser to give her bad advice like that.


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## Evolving78 (Apr 15, 2015)

4c hair once hydrated can handle a lot more than any other texture out there. My dd has 3b/c and I have 4a. Because of the curls and coils, we struggle with tangles, ssks, etc... That whole defining curls thing isn't needed around here. It's more about manageability! 4c hair has the best blow outs, twist outs, Bantu knot out, braids, rope like two strand twists, fros, etc... When they straighten their hair, it looks so thick and healthy, since most have high density. 
New naturals that get in their feels about their new empowerment grate my nerves. Hair is hair. Do what you please with it. I'm all about self love, but keep that other crap to yourself.


----------



## Evolving78 (Apr 15, 2015)

BostonMaria said:


> Sorry I'm responding one year later LOL
> 
> This is why I stopped taking advice and instead paid attention to what my hair liked/disliked. How awful of that hairdresser to give her bad advice like that.


How was that bad advice? It isn't permanent and give the lady and option to help with transitioning? I don't want to come off argumentive, But I wonder why some naturals got a problem with TMS products?


----------



## BostonMaria (Apr 15, 2015)

shortdub78 said:


> How was that bad advice? It isn't permanent and give the lady and option to help with transitioning? I don't want to come off argumentive, But I wonder why some naturals got a problem with TMS products?



Are you a representative? Because you sound mad LOL

Its not bad advice per say, but it is not as helpful because some people have suffered breakage with the TMS products.  I personally would never advise someone that's transitioning to go from one chemical to another.  That's just me.


----------



## Evolving78 (Apr 15, 2015)

BostonMaria said:


> Are you a representative? Because you sound mad LOL
> 
> Its not bad advice per say, but it is not as helpful because some people have suffered breakage with the TMS products.  I personally would never advise someone that's transitioning to go from one chemical to another.  That's just me.


No I'm not mad, and I would love to be a representative!  A lot of people with kinkier textures suffer breakage during transitioning period. Imo it can be very helpful and has helped transitioners. A lot of transitioners have recommended TMS products and their hair has thrived. I think using excessive amounts of heat with these products may be an issue, but folks that don't use them still suffer from heat damage. I just don't see how the stylist offering an option was bad advice. You have natural nazis that that are against anything they feel is against the grain. If you don't  big chop right away and use heat, then you aren't loving yourself and embracing your natural texture.


----------



## nothidden (Apr 15, 2015)

shortdub78 said:


> No I'm not mad, and I would love to be a representative!  A lot of people with kinkier textures suffer breakage during transitioning period. Imo it can be very helpful and has helped transitioners. A lot of transitioners have recommended TMS products and their hair has thrived. I think using excessive amounts of heat with these products may be an issue, but folks that don't use them still suffer from heat damage. I just don't see how the stylist offering an option was bad advice. You have natural nazis that that are against anything they feel is against the grain. If you don't  big chop right away and use heat, then you aren't loving yourself and embracing your natural texture.


Maybe the assumption is that TMS products are chemicals or like texturizers.  I don't know what they are but my first thought was 'texturizer' + transitioning doesn't add up.


----------



## Evolving78 (Apr 15, 2015)

nothidden said:


> Maybe the assumption is that TMS products are chemicals or like texturizers.  I don't know what they are but my first thought was 'texturizer' + transitioning doesn't add up.


It's just a product, similar to a keratin treatment, or is one. I have tried a couple so far, and my texture is still the same after using a sulfate shampoo. Shea moisture has one that I would like to try very soon! It seems to be the new bandwagon with hair companies. Just like argan oil, Shea butter, coconut oil, cleansing creams, etc...


----------



## nothidden (Apr 15, 2015)

shortdub78 said:


> It's just a product, similar to a keratin treatment, or is one. I have tried a couple so far, and my texture is still the same after using a sulfate shampoo. Shea moisture has one that I would like to try very soon! It seems to be the new bandwagon with hair companies. Just like argan oil, Shea butter, coconut oil, cleansing creams, etc...


Oh, get out...like a keratin treatment.  OK. 

Sounded like she needed some kind of protein treatment w/breakage at the demarcation point. 

And I must say this has to be the most interesting thread I've encountered on this forum.  Some of the comments...


----------



## BostonMaria (Apr 15, 2015)

shortdub78 said:


> No I'm not mad, and I would love to be a representative!  A lot of people with kinkier textures suffer breakage during transitioning period. Imo it can be very helpful and has helped transitioners. A lot of transitioners have recommended TMS products and their hair has thrived. I think using excessive amounts of heat with these products may be an issue, but folks that don't use them still suffer from heat damage. I just don't see how the stylist offering an option was bad advice. You have natural nazis that that are against anything they feel is against the grain. If you don't  big chop right away and use heat, then you aren't loving yourself and embracing your natural texture.



If you do a search on this forum and see the horror stories on the TMS products and other similar Brazilian Keratin Treatments you'd see why some of us think this way.  I'm definitely not a natural hair nazi LOL  If you look at my avatar you'd see I straighten with a flatiron with no apologies.  I personally wouldn't tell someone to use TMS products, but people should go ahead and do whatever feels right.


----------



## Evolving78 (Apr 15, 2015)

BostonMaria said:


> If you do a search on this forum and see the horror stories on the TMS products and other similar Brazilian Keratin Treatments you'd see why some of us think this way.  I'm definitely not a natural hair nazi LOL  If you look at my avatar you'd see I straighten with a flatiron with no apologies.  I personally wouldn't tell someone to use TMS products, but people should go ahead and do whatever feels right.


I'm an old head on this site, so I know you aren't that way at all. That comment wasn't directed towards you, or any of the other ladies. Just speaking from a general standpoint.


----------



## Evolving78 (Apr 15, 2015)

nothidden said:


> Oh, get out...like a keratin treatment.  OK.
> 
> Sounded like she needed some kind of protein treatment w/breakage at the demarcation point.
> 
> And I must say this has to be the most interesting thread I've encountered on this forum.  Some of the comments...


I agree. She could have went more into depth and made that a teachable moment.


----------



## BostonMaria (Apr 15, 2015)

shortdub78 said:


> I'm an old head on this site, so I know you aren't that way at all. That comment wasn't directed towards you, or any of the other ladies. Just speaking from a general standpoint.



Its OK I didn't take offense to it


----------



## naheda72 (Apr 16, 2015)

xxlalaxx said:


> Gonna add to this too lol. Always wear sunscreen and don't buy into the myth that black people can't get sun burnt.


Not to get off topic, but I use to say sunglasses were for ugly people. Now I wear sunglasses and sunscreen everyday if possible and I encourage my daughter to as well.  My motto is I have to protect my beauty.  I am dark skin with type 4 hair with a very high self esteem. I am not even concerned about this hair typing, but maybe its because I have been natural so long.


----------



## AmethystLily (Apr 16, 2015)

I've noticed that very kinky hair only gets attention when it's either very long or if very short, defined with lots of product.


----------



## ClassyJSP (Apr 16, 2015)

Tip toeing in the thread.. I never really understood this hair system 4a, 4b, 3c thing.


----------



## LivingInPeace (Apr 17, 2015)

ClassyJSP said:


> Tip toeing in the thread.. I never really understood this hair system 4a, 4b, 3c thing.


What don't you understand? Or do you mean you just don't agree with it?


----------



## AmethystLily (Apr 18, 2015)

LivingInPeace said:


> What don't you understand? Or do you mean you just don't agree with it?


Well, I'm not ClassyJSP, but for me it's both. I understand the basics (it's based on curl size), but there's a lot more that determines how a person's hair will look or act. Andre's system alone isn't very useful to me. As mentioned upthread, strand diameter, density, and porosity all play a role. This is the reason a lot of product or treatment trials end in disaster for many, sometimes even when they use products recommended for or used by people whose hair looks like theirs.
Two people can both be type 4b, but one of them could be high porosity and fine-stranded, and the other low-porosity and coarse-stranded. That will say a lot about which products and techniques to use, and what results will come from the same style.
I know I'm getting way off-topic, but here was my point: I think some people are still too hung up on trying to get their hair to look or act a certain way. That not only can drive a person batty mentally, but it can also keep them from finding a product or technique that works for them.


----------



## LivingInPeace (Apr 18, 2015)

AmethystLily said:


> Well, I'm not ClassyJSP, but for me it's both. I understand the basics (it's based on curl size), but there's a lot more that determines how a person's hair will look or act. Andre's system alone isn't very useful to me. As mentioned upthread, strand diameter, density, and porosity all play a role. This is the reason a lot of product or treatment trials end in disaster for many, sometimes even when they use products recommended for or used by people whose hair looks like theirs.
> Two people can both be type 4b, but one of them could be high porosity and fine-stranded, and the other low-porosity and coarse-stranded. That will say a lot about which products and techniques to use, and what results will come from the same style.
> I know I'm getting way off-topic, but here was my point: I think some people are still too hung up on trying to get their hair to look or act a certain way. That not only can drive a person batty mentally, but it can also keep them from finding a product or technique that works for them.


I agree with your points. For me, the hair typing thing is just a starting point for learning what your hair may like. I haven't mastered the porosity density thing yet. But I know that if I see the results of a product on a 4a chick, I can usually expect something similar for me.


----------



## DarkJoy (Apr 18, 2015)

I agree.  hair typing is just a starting point or like a compass to point you in the general direction. the rest is up to the person to find what  works and what doesnt.


----------



## CodeRed (Apr 18, 2015)

ClassyJSP said:


> Tip toeing in the thread.. I never really understood this hair system 4a, 4b, 3c thing.



I understand what you're saying... I don't understand hair typing either. For me, the most important thing is responding what my hair is doing/how it feels. It worked when I was natural and relaxed. The only thing I kept getting wrong was the technique. I've talked to many people who do their own hair who say the same thing, even on this board: you use products based on what you hair is telling you it needs, not you hair type. If that's the case then none of us would find success in products that are peddled towards naturally straight/slightly wavy hair. For a time I made that same mistake: If it looked like it was for "white people" then I wasn't going to use it. Yeah, well... that didn't last long when my hair fell out. I started trying everything for everybody


----------



## DarkJoy (Apr 18, 2015)

Come to think of it I don't  use typing much for products. However it does more to give a general sense of how to manipulate better. I know I cant rake through my type 4 with a comb like a stick  straight type 1. I also know that type 1s dont have to contend with ssk like I do nor do they require as much protein. but that's kind of it.


----------



## koolkittychick (Apr 18, 2015)

It's interesting to come back to this thread after so much time from the perspective that I now have, having transitioned for 11 months and just recently BC to a TWA after growing my relaxed hair to waist length. When I had all that hair, I got complimented and oohed and aahed from here to infinity, even as my ends were becoming increasingly ragged from the transitioning. When I finally BC'd, I have heard crickets regarding my TWA, but I'm loving it now that I know how to take care of it. Turns out that the hair I thought was 4C is actually 4ab hair that needs a lot of the right kind of moisture, and hates combs and brushes. And no I don't mean all of that MHM crap--I don't have time for that nonsense! I wash and deep condition once a week, co-wash midweek, and moisturize and seal when I wash/co-wash, and my hair is curly, soft and happy. It'll be a while before it grows long enough to where I'm completely happy with it, but we are getting along fine, even if other people don't see it for the beautiful hair it is.


----------



## nathansgirl1908 (Apr 18, 2015)

What's interesting to me is that people are offended by the hair typing, but have no issue with the word "kinky."   I hate that word.


----------



## Guinan (Apr 18, 2015)

koolkittychick said:


> It's interesting to come back to this thread after so much time from the perspective that I now have, having transitioned for 11 months and just recently BC to a TWA after growing my relaxed hair to waist length. When I had all that hair, I got complimented and oohed and aahed from here to infinity, even as my ends were becoming increasingly ragged from the transitioning. When I finally BC'd, I have heard crickets regarding my TWA, but I'm loving it now that I know how to take care of it. Turns out that the hair I thought was 4C is actually 4ab hair that needs a lot of the right kind of moisture, and hates combs and brushes. And no I don't mean all of that MHM crap--I don't have time for that nonsense! I wash and deep condition once a week, co-wash midweek, and moisturize and seal when I wash/co-wash, and my hair is curly, soft and happy. It'll be a while before it grows long enough to where I'm completely happy with it, but we are getting along fine, even if other people don't see it for the beautiful hair it is.


 
Congrats on your BC!

But what exactly are your issues with MHM and the MHM nonsense? I'm just curious b/c if my memory serves me correctly you were pretty vocal about disliking MHM in the initial MHM thread.


----------



## ClassyJSP (Apr 19, 2015)

CodeRed said:


> I understand what you're saying... I don't understand hair typing either. For me, the most important thing is responding what my hair is doing/how it feels. It worked when I was natural and relaxed. The only thing I kept getting wrong was the technique. I've talked to many people who do their own hair who say the same thing, even on this board: you use products based on what you hair is telling you it needs, not you hair type. If that's the case then none of us would find success in products that are peddled towards naturally straight/slightly wavy hair. For a time I made that same mistake:* If it looked like it was for "white people" then I wasn't going to use it*. Yeah, well... that didn't last long when my hair fell out. I started trying everything for everybody



Yes! I would only use doo grow, Dudley, lusters etc because it was for my hair.. now that I understand any kind of product from any kind of line could be best for my hair I don't bother.


----------



## koolkittychick (Apr 19, 2015)

pelohello said:


> Congrats on your BC!
> 
> But what exactly are your issues with MHM and the MHM nonsense? I'm just curious b/c if my memory serves me correctly you were pretty vocal about disliking MHM in the initial MHM thread.



Thanks for the congrats!

It just seems to me that MHM is not a very effective method for the effort it requires. Last I checked, the originator (pinky cube?) doesn't even update her site anymore, and the other girl who promotes it on YouTube (can't remember her name but she has a very distinctive voice), her last video showed almost no progress with her hair after a full year of promoting the method in terms of growth or looking healthy or touchable.  When I check the MHM hangout from time to time, I see that the folks in there are changing their regimen every ten minutes in the quest for the perfectly hydrated curl. Overall, for the amount of time, effort and input that goes into that thread, I see very little tangible results.

I have to wonder what it is MHMers are really after for all the time, effort, money and changes they go through, often to create a look that most people can achieve with 3 products and a twist out.


----------



## Guinan (Apr 19, 2015)

koolkittychick said:


> Thanks for the congrats!
> 
> It just seems to me that MHM is not a very effective method for the effort it requires. Last I checked, the originator (pinky cube?) doesn't even update her site anymore, and the other girl who promotes it on YouTube (can't remember her name but she has a very distinctive voice), her last video showed almost no progress with her hair after a full year of promoting the method in terms of growth or looking healthy or touchable.  When I check the MHM hangout from time to time, I see that the folks in there are changing their regimen every ten minutes in the quest for the perfectly hydrated curl. Overall, for the amount of time, effort and input that goes into that thread, I see very little tangible results.
> 
> I have to wonder what it is MHMers are really after for all the time, effort, money and changes they go through, often to create a look that most people can achieve with 3 products and a twist out.



Your entitled to your opinion so here is mines. If your so against the method why even bother checking pinkcubes site, looking into the MHM threads and consistently bash something that may be working for others. I'm not a stan for the method but I don't understand your implication towards someone that wants to achieve hydrated hair. The method is ever changing because our hair needs are ever changing. And i get the whole "i paid my 6.97 " or whatever the LHCF membership fee is to go into any thread, but it just doesn't make sense (to me anyway) to stay abreast on something that your so against. 

What are YOU after?


----------



## sweetpea7 (Apr 19, 2015)

Before you write it off entirely, I encourage you to check out dubaidee4c blog or youtube channel. She does the regimen once a week on a different head of hair and only uses a very simplified MHM regimen and had great results.


----------



## Honey Bee (Apr 19, 2015)

koolkittychick said:


> Thanks for the congrats!
> 
> It just seems to me that MHM is not a very effective method for the effort it requires. Last I checked, the originator (pinky cube?) doesn't even update her site anymore, and the other girl who promotes it on YouTube (can't remember her name but she has a very distinctive voice), her last video showed almost no progress with her hair after a full year of promoting the method in terms of growth or looking healthy or touchable.  When I check the MHM hangout from time to time, I see that the folks in there are changing their regimen every ten minutes in the quest for the perfectly hydrated curl. Overall, for the amount of time, effort and input that goes into that thread, I see very little tangible results.
> 
> I have to wonder what it is MHMers are really after for all the time, effort, money and changes they go through, often to create a look that most people can achieve with 3 products and a twist out.


Not to pile on, but I'm gonna have to disagree with the entire premise of your post. As a new natural, you're flooded with information. Pre poo with this, co wash with that, moisturize and seal with that . There are endless debates. Don't front, most natural do faaaar more than five steps.  I'm tired of hearing about how long/ tedious the MHM is compared to the 50 million steps your average yt'er has. 

The MHM gave me a nice little template of five simple steps. I've never actually done the five steps with entirely proper, MHM-approved products, yet I'm still seeing results. And by 'results,' I don't mean curl pattern, I'm talking SSK's! That's real ish!


----------



## CodeRed (Apr 19, 2015)

If you have the time, desire, energy and money to do what you want to your hair to get the desired effect then go for it. I see a lot of people on here doing many more steps and taking just as much time as that MHM and while I wouldn't do any of it I'm not going to begrudge them doing it. I spend a total of about a half hour and 2 products actually doing my hair and that's too much time/product for some people but they don't tell me to stop doing what I'm doing and I wouldn't appreciate it too much if they did.


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## nyeredzi (Apr 19, 2015)

Oh, is that what MHM is?  Maybe I should check it out.  All this time I thought this was either that product they sell for horses or yeast infections.   So I never went in.  Sounds like it's time consuming, though.


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## GGsKin (Apr 20, 2015)

I do MHM and I don't consider it time consuming. On wash day, I water rinse, clay rinse, apply oil, gel. With it, I have a regimen that gives me hair that's easy to manage and style how I desire- in its unstretched state, and without heat. And I've been retaining length.

With consistency, my hair is not drying into a tangled shrunken fro that I have to break a sweat, or fling in some braids to tackle. 6 months ago, I found a way to care for my hair, that's suits me.

I don't see why some people seem to have a problem with this particular regimen/method.


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## discodumpling (Apr 20, 2015)

MHM the proof is on my head. No explanation needed. Thats pretty much been my approach throughout my natural journey. Folks can try it or nah...there are a million ways to customize and personalize any regimen. It is essential to listen to your hair. One size rarely fits all.


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## nothidden (Apr 20, 2015)

koolkittychick said:


> Thanks for the congrats!
> 
> It just seems to me that MHM is not a very effective method for the effort it requires. Last I checked, the originator (pinky cube?) doesn't even update her site anymore, and the other girl who promotes it on YouTube (can't remember her name but she has a very distinctive voice), her last video showed almost no progress with her hair after a full year of promoting the method in terms of growth or looking healthy or touchable.  When I check the MHM hangout from time to time, I see that the folks in there are changing their regimen every ten minutes in the quest for the perfectly hydrated curl. Overall, for the amount of time, effort and input that goes into that thread, I see very little tangible results.
> 
> I have to wonder what it is MHMers are really after for all the time, effort, money and changes they go through, often to create a look that most people can achieve with 3 products and a twist out.


My understanding of the goal of MHM was to hydrate your hair to the point where 4c hair is not a completely frizzed out, undefined 'fro (be it curls or waves) WITHOUT product, so your curl/wave pattern is always defined.  My reason for doing MHM was that I always saw my curl pattern via shed hair, and just wanted that pattern to be more prominent.  I knew I needed moisture and thought MHM could help, and it did.  I stopped doing MHM in the fall due to the cold weather, but I do think @koolkittychick has a point.  Although I still follow a few folks I remember from another MHM thread, I don't know any who consistently experience complete curl definition w/o product.  But that doesn't mean it doesn't work. 

A lot of the modifications are routines people not associated w/MHM are already doing.  The latest involving coconut milk and okra gel is something that has been around for years. Google it.


----------



## Honey Bee (Apr 20, 2015)

nothidden said:


> A lot of the modifications are routines people not associated w/MHM are already doing.  *The latest involving coconut milk and okra gel is something that has been around for years.* Google it.


As has everything else in the regimen. Clay is a naturally-occurring substance, people been using it in their hair since the beginning of time. So, clearly, Pinke Cube didn't claim to have invented clay masks or ACV rinses. All she did was study the regimens of successful naturals and realize, "Wow, a lot of these women actually wash/ clarify their hair regularly. Maybe that might work....?'  

What's funny is, if you started a thread saying, 'I'm a natural who cowashes everyday, but my hair never feels moisturized,' the first thing people would tell you to do is clarify. They'd probably recommend a shampoo. Pinke Cube points out a way to safely incorporate natural clarifying methods into daily use and everybody's against it.


----------



## Guinan (Apr 20, 2015)

nothidden said:


> My understanding of the goal of MHM was to hydrate your hair to the point where 4c hair is not a completely frizzed out, undefined 'fro (be it curls or waves) WITHOUT product, so your curl/wave pattern is always defined.  My reason for doing MHM was that I always saw my curl pattern via shed hair, and just wanted that pattern to be more prominent.  I knew I needed moisture and thought MHM could help, and it did.  I stopped doing MHM in the fall due to the cold weather, but I do think @koolkittychick has a point.  Although I still follow a few folks I remember from another MHM thread, I don't know any who consistently experience complete curl definition w/o product.  But that doesn't mean it doesn't work.
> 
> A lot of the modifications are routines people not associated w/MHM are already doing.  The latest involving coconut milk and okra gel is something that has been around for years. Google it.



MHM aside, I don't know anyone either who doesn't use gel for their wngs.
 I dont think that's the purpose of the MHM or the objective ; to wear a wng without gel.

Everyone uses some sort of product to maintain their hair. Straight or curly.


----------



## koolkittychick (Apr 20, 2015)

pelohello said:


> Your entitled to your opinion so here is mines. If your so against the method why even bother checking pinkcubes site, looking into the MHM threads and consistently bash something that may be working for others. I'm not a stan for the method but I don't understand your implication towards someone that wants to achieve hydrated hair. The method is ever changing because our hair needs are ever changing. And i get the whole "i paid my 6.97 " or whatever the LHCF membership fee is to go into any thread, but it just doesn't make sense (to me anyway) to stay abreast on something that your so against.
> 
> What are YOU after?



The same thing everyone else here is after; knowledge on how to best care for my hair. Like most curious minds, I do try to keep abreast of information that could prove useful to me, even if I initially disagree with it. While it's obvious that MHM as laid out by Pinkycube and msdeekay2012 do not work, since almost no one on that thread follows it as prescribed by them anymore, there are enough elements in the regimen that seem to be effective by themselves under different conditions and scenarios, and it's interesting to see how others experiment with those different elements to get the results they are after. Maybe one day someone will come up with a method that does work, producing effective and visible results on a wide range of hair, and is simple enough to be easily followed and even commercialized, as many major companies have done with cowashing and the LOC/LCO methods. Until then, there's no harm in keeping track of the evolution, noting the improvements and/or continued deficiencies along the way. Is there a problem with that?


----------



## nothidden (Apr 20, 2015)

Honey Bee said:


> As has everything else in the regimen. Clay is a naturally-occurring substance, people been using it in their hair since the beginning of time. So, clearly, Pinke Cube didn't claim to have invented clay masks or ACV rinses. All she did was study the regimens of successful naturals and realize, "Wow, a lot of these women actually wash/ clarify their hair regularly. Maybe that might work....?'
> 
> What's funny is, if you started a thread saying, 'I'm a natural who cowashes everyday, but my hair never feels moisturized,' the first thing people would tell you to do is clarify. They'd probably recommend a shampoo. Pinke Cube points out a way to safely incorporate natural clarifying methods into daily use and everybody's against it.


I understand that MHMers can be a bit fanatical, but have you noticed that no one is resentful towards women who feel the curly girl method is ineffective for 4c or low porosity hair?  God bless free speech and to each their own.


----------



## Guinan (Apr 20, 2015)

nothidden said:


> I understand that MHMers can be a bit fanatical, but have you noticed that no one is resentful towards women who feel the curly girl method is ineffective for 4c or low porosity hair?  God bless free speech and to each their own.



Fanatical?  I think not.


----------



## nothidden (Apr 20, 2015)

pelohello said:


> MHM aside, I don't know anyone either who doesn't use gel for their wngs.
> I dont think that's the purpose of the MHM or the objective ; to wear a wng without gel.
> 
> Everyone uses some sort of product to maintain their hair. Straight or curly.


Then you don't understand the point of the method.  It's not just a WnG.  Ask Pinke cube.  The whole point is "max hydration" and you know you've reached it when your hair is defined from root to tip w/o product.  That is the goal.


----------



## koolkittychick (Apr 20, 2015)

pelohello said:


> MHM aside, I don't know anyone either who doesn't use gel for their wngs.
> I dont think that's the purpose of the MHM or the objective ; to wear a wng without gel.
> 
> Everyone uses some sort of product to maintain their hair. Straight or curly.


I do not use gel for my wng; my scalp does not like them. My hair stays soft without it, and I don't care for the sticky or crunchy look and feel of gel.


----------



## Guinan (Apr 20, 2015)

koolkittychick said:


> The same thing everyone else here is after; knowledge on how to best care for my hair. Like most curious minds, I do try to keep abreast of information that could prove useful to me, even if I initially disagree with it. While it's obvious that MHM as laid out by Pinkycube and msdeekay2012 do not work, since almost no one on that thread follows it as prescribed by them anymore, there are enough elements in the regimen that seem to be effective by themselves under different conditions and scenarios, and it's interesting to see how others experiment with those different elements to get the results they are after. Maybe one day someone with come up with a method that does work, producing effective and visible results on a wide range of hair, and is simple enough to be easily followed and even commercialized, as many major companies have done with cowashing and the LOC/LCO methods. Until then, there's no harm in keeping track of the evolution, noting the improvements and/or continued deficiencies along the way. Is there a problem with that?



Nope no problem at all. Continue to do the MHM in private and bash the method in public.


----------



## Guinan (Apr 20, 2015)

nothidden said:


> Then you don't understand the point of the method.  It's not just a WnG.  Ask Pinke cube.  The whole point is "max hydration" and you know you've reached it when your hair is defined from root to tip w/o product.  That is the goal.



Correct, you know that u reached hydration when it is defined root to tip. From your other post, I took it that you shouldn't be using gel. I misunderstood your post not the method.


----------



## Guinan (Apr 20, 2015)

koolkittychick said:


> I do not use gel for my wng; my scalp does not like them. My hair stays soft without it, and I don't care for the sticky or crunchy look and feel of gel.



I don't like crunchy gels either and neither does my hair. That's why I don't use crunchy gels.


----------



## nothidden (Apr 20, 2015)

koolkittychick said:


> I do not use gel for my wng; my scalp does not like them. My hair stays soft without it, and I don't care for the sticky or crunchy look and feel of gel.


An alternative to gel is an oil that will seal the strand.  I didn't like gel until I tried DevaCurl's Light Conditioning Gel.  LOVE it.  Now I use it all the time.


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## koolkittychick (Apr 20, 2015)

nothidden said:


> An alternative to gel is an oil that will seal the strand.  I didn't like gel until I tried DevaCurl's Light Conditioning Gel.  LOVE it.  Now I use it all the time.


That is what I use to seal also. I use an oil by Paul Mitchell and it works very well.


----------



## koolkittychick (Apr 20, 2015)

pelohello said:


> Nope no problem at all. Continue to do the MHM in private and bash the method in public.



That seems like a juvenile response, since I already stated I do not follow any aspect of the MHM; too much time and bad science behind it, and since I am on a septic tank system, I don't think it would be a good idea to pour pounds of clay down my drains when I don't have to for soft, moisturized hair.


----------



## nothidden (Apr 20, 2015)

koolkittychick said:


> That is what I use to seal also. I use an oil by Paul Mitchell and it works very well.


I used to use Argan oil...OMG.  Love that oil.  But I am just so surprised at how well DevaCurl products hydrate that I will be working with them for a while.


----------



## koolkittychick (Apr 20, 2015)

nothidden said:


> I used to use Argan oil...OMG.  Love that oil.  But I am just so surprised at how well DevaCurl products hydrate that I will be working with them for a while.



I'm not surprised. I have heard many good things about DevaCurl, and once my hair grows some more I want to go to their salon in New York and get a proper Deva cut.


----------



## nothidden (Apr 20, 2015)

I'm surprised because when doing MHM, DevaCurl products weren't recommended (not called out just not on the recommended product list) due to certain ingredients.  I actually thought my hair would be harmed.  But someone still following MHM convinced me to try it. 

Too funny...my coworker mentioned on Friday that she wanted to get a Deva cut soon.  She found a stylist in her area.  We are both doing the same as you, waiting for our hair to grow some more.


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## GGsKin (Apr 20, 2015)

nothidden said:


> Then you don't understand the point of the method.  It's not just a WnG.  Ask Pinke cube.  The whole point is "max hydration" and you know you've reached it when your hair is defined from root to tip w/o product.  That is the goal.



This doesn't mean anyone who does MHM intends wear their hair without product. How many of us put nothing on our hair at all? Its a way of monitoring your hair. Root to tip definition without product is just a way of signifying hydrated hair. 

I am enjoying my hair trials. I honestly wouldn't care if my hair never became 'hydrated to the max' if that is even possible (the idea of moisture evaporating comes to mind- hence our continued use of water, regimens or certain products like moisturisers). Maintaining my hair isn't hurting any body so it's all good to me.


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## sweetpea7 (Apr 20, 2015)

Co sign on the no gel wng. I used to love flax seed gel but i hate making it every few days.

Jelly of you ladies getting a deva cut. My broke self can barely afford to get her hair straightened for graduation.


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## nothidden (Apr 20, 2015)

AbsyBlvd said:


> This doesn't mean anyone who does MHM intends wear their hair without product. How many of us put nothing on our hair at all? Its a way of monitoring your hair. Root to tip definition without product is just a way of signifying hydrated hair.
> 
> I am enjoying my hair trials. I honestly wouldn't care if my hair never became 'hydrated to the max' if that is even possible (the idea of moisture evaporating comes to mind- hence our continued use of water, regimens or certain products like moisturisers). Maintaining my hair isn't hurting any body so it's all good to me.


I know that Pinke, Aketafitgirl, and DanaBNatural are all at max hydration and they all still use product.  Definition w/o product is just an indicator.  Aketafitgirl has a video about this.  You're reading into the comment or you just misunderstood it.


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## nothidden (Apr 20, 2015)

sweetpea7 said:


> Co sign on the no gel wng. I used to love flax seed gel but i hate making it every few days.
> 
> Jelly of you ladies getting a deva cut. My broke self can barely afford to get her hair straightened for graduation.


My experience w/flax seed gel was so hit-or-miss that I stopped using it and went back to oils.


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## Guinan (Apr 20, 2015)

nothidden said:


> I know that Pinke, Aketafitgirl, and DanaBNatural are all at max hydration and they all still use product.  Definition w/o product is just an indicator.  Aketafitgirl has a video about this.  You're reading into the comment or you just misunderstood it.



Maybe it was the way it was written


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## sweetpea7 (Apr 20, 2015)

nothidden said:


> My experience w/flax seed gel was so hit-or-miss that I stopped using it and went back to oils.



I know what you mean. If it was too thin or too thick it would define my hair very well. I think i'll try aloe vera gel. have you used it on your wngs?


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## Guinan (Apr 20, 2015)

nothidden said:


> My experience w/flax seed gel was so hit-or-miss that I stopped using it and went back to oils.



Utuber Naptural85 has a good recipe for fsg.


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## nothidden (Apr 20, 2015)

sweetpea7 said:


> I know what you mean. If it was too thin or too thick it would define my hair very well. I think i'll try aloe vera gel. have you used it on your wngs?


You know I have some but I haven't tried it.


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## mssoconfused (Apr 23, 2015)

shortdub78 said:


> I like those! They are very helpful with managing the two textures. You aren't confusing that with a texturizer are you?


Sorry I'm just responding. No, I'm not confusing the two...but they are very similar in chemical makeup. Just like a texturizer is a "watered down" version of a relaxer, this is a "watered down" version of the texturizer. So while they offer some flexibility in going from straight to natural, it is still altering the curl pattern of your hair and continued use can leave long term effects. 

This event was a while ago but what I remember from the discussion wasn't that she was transitioning b/c she wanted to have healthier straight hair, but that she wanted to embrace her curls. This advice seemed counter to her goal. Also, I am not a fan of adding chemicals to your hair that straighten then hair if you're looking to wear curly hair. In my eyes, it defeats the point.


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## Evolving78 (Apr 23, 2015)

mssoconfused said:


> Sorry I'm just responding. No, I'm not confusing the two...but they are very similar in chemical makeup. Just like a texturizer is a "watered down" version of a relaxer, this is a "watered down" version of the texturizer. So while they offer some flexibility in going from straight to natural, it is still altering the curl pattern of your hair and continued use can leave long term effects.
> 
> This event was a while ago but what I remember from the discussion wasn't that she was transitioning b/c she wanted to have healthier straight hair, but that she wanted to embrace her curls. This advice seemed counter to her goal. Also, I am not a fan of adding chemicals to your hair that straighten then hair if you're looking to wear curly hair. In my eyes, it defeats the point.


Yeah you are. It's not the product, it's the heat that is being used. A texturizer is a relaxer, just in mild form and you are not suppose to smooth and leave on for a short period of time. Folks even stopped buying texturizer kits, when they were aware what it was. Now they just add product to a relaxer, or buy the mild formula. It sounds like you may have issues with continued heat use. That is one of the issues with the natural community. Folks go so far as to get technical and become scientists when it comes to breaking down the use of heat. I have used the products several times with no issues with my natural texture. There maybe others who can't tolerate as much heat as I can, so product or no product, heat is the issue here. And even without heat, some of those products will help with loosening the curl temporarily. You are assuming with no factual evidence that with continued use, it will become permanent. And if there is any out there, so what? Folks are gonna snatch the natural badge of honor from people?


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## mssoconfused (Apr 25, 2015)

shortdub78 said:


> Yeah you are. It's not the product, it's the heat that is being used. A texturizer is a relaxer, just in mild form and you are not suppose to smooth and leave on for a short period of time. Folks even stopped buying texturizer kits, when they were aware what it was. Now they just add product to a relaxer, or buy the mild formula. It sounds like you may have issues with continued heat use. That is one of the issues with the natural community. Folks go so far as to get technical and become scientists when it comes to breaking down the use of heat. I have used the products several times with no issues with my natural texture. There maybe others who can't tolerate as much heat as I can, so product or no product, heat is the issue here. And even without heat, some of those products will help with loosening the curl temporarily. You are assuming with no factual evidence that with continued use, it will become permanent. And if there is any out there, so what? Folks are gonna snatch the natural badge of honor from people?



"It sounds like you have issues with continued heat use." That's called projection, lol. No. EYE don't use heat but I am also a lazy natural and live in the world of wash and go. Now that we have gotten that out of the way, we can focus back to the original post which stated that the woman at the seminar seeking help was transitioning from chemically relaxed hair to natural hair b/c she wanted to embrace her curls. Its worth repeating....she wanted to embrace her cruel. The line of demarcation was her primary issue surrounding breakage. It seems pretty simple to me that if someone is transitioning from one chemical because they want straight hair, then the solution is not to recommend another chemical which straightens their hair, albeit a milder straightening process. 

I hope this clears up any confusion on you may have


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## mssoconfused (Apr 25, 2015)

And by the way, its not an assumption that with continued use it will become permanent. Those are facts based on the chemical process and how it interacts with the protein bonds in our hair. Its the same with *any* chemical you apply to your hair.


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