# Can someone who doesn't believe that Jesus is God be a Christian?



## EbonyEyes (Feb 24, 2006)

Okay so let me tell you....

This guy who did the photography at my school's fashion show came to get his check.  And while we were waiting, we got to talking.  And he says he loves reading the bible and holding bible studies.

Say those two things and you got me interested!

So we talked for 2 hours about God and the Bible.  He said a couple of kinda odd things but I didn't think much of it at the time.

Then he asked if we could have a bible study together the following week.  I said "Sure!"

So we're having the Bible study.  I brought my bible (KJV) and he had his.  And we're reading some topics out of a study guide and going through the scriptures.

So I'm flipping through and think to myself "What a nice study guide!  Who published this?"

So I look at the front and it says "Watchtower Bible Tract Society."

My facial expression had to have been picture perfect.  I looked at him and said "This study guide was produced by Jehovah's Witnesses?"  He said "Yes, why?"  I then say "Uhh...Are you a Jehovah's Witness?"  He says "Yes I am."

My mind is going crazy because I can't believe that I'm having bible study with a Jehovah's Witness!  I've heard not-so-great things about that sect.  But I calmed down and decided to ask him questions and consider his answers with an open mind.

I ask him about their belief that Christ did not die on a cross but on a stake.  So he's talking about that.  And then he says that having crosses around your neck and in churches is idol worship!!  I had to let him know that I don't pray to the cross and I wear a cross around my neck to show people that I'm a Christ-loving gal.

Then I ask him to clarify their belief about Jesus.  He says that Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus was a great man, a sinless man.  He was the son of God but he was NOT God!  He then says that the Trinity has no biblical basis and the Holy Spirit is just an active force of Jehovah, not a person.

I'm totally wierded out at this point.  Then he goes on about how the path to righteousness is narrow and few people *find* it.  I believe he was alluding to the fact that Jehovah's Witnesses have the path right and the other Christians have it completely wrong.  He said outright that we should not be worshipping Jesus because he was not God or celebrating Christmas because of its pagan basis.

He used Jesus praying to God and him saying that his father's will be done and him saying there is none good but the father as support for the claim that Jesus was not God.

I pray about this and ask God to show me in the scriptures where it shows that Jesus was God.  I go to John 1 and it describes how the Word was with God and WAS God and the Word was made flesh.  So then I'm thinking "It's right there in the Bible.  Why don't the Witnesses believe that Jesus was God."  I then read the New World Translation Bible (The photographer guy gave me a copy to read) and it reads differently.  It says that the Word was *a* god (yes the word "god" was in lowercase letters).  He claims that the New World Translation Bible came from a direct translation of the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures.  But the book was published by the Watchtower Society.  Very wierd.

Traditional Christianity teaches that Jesus was not only a man but was also God.  So can someone be a Christian if they do not believe that Jesus was God as well?

Another interesting tidbit, the guy I studied with said that Jesus came back invisibly to Earth in 1914 (the year WWI) began and the Devil and his angels were kicked out of heaven that year.

Now last time I checked, Jesus said in Matthew 24 that when he came back, it would be known!  So how could he have come back invisibly?

Ladies, any other scriptures you can find that support Jesus being God would be greatly appreciated!

I don't know what to say to this guy.  I'm supposed to have Bible Study with him again on Monday and I don't wanna!


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## TJD3 (Feb 24, 2006)

I dont think Jesus is God.  I know I am a Christian.  I see that as a technicality anyways.  We are to go through Jesus to get to God, not worship Jesus.  Does that make sense  ?  And no, Im not Jehova Witness.


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## alexstin (Feb 24, 2006)

How can someone believe that Jesus is not God and be a Christian? It's an oxymoron.


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## star (Feb 24, 2006)

*Jesus is God*. GOd multipled himself and put on a robe of flesh to become Jesus thats why he is called the *son of *God. *God the father, God the son(Jesus) and God the holy Ghost. These three are all God in different manifestations. *God wanted others to know that He understood the human part of us so He himself came from heaven to redeem us or to save His people. When He sent for Jesus to come to heaven God let us the Holy Spirit with in us to help us. Jesus sits on right hand side of God interceding for us as we pray. The holy spirit guides us and instructs us. God controls everything and everybody.

You are *NOT* a Christian if you do not believe that Jesus is God in the flesh. The word Christian has "christ" right in it and it basically means to follow Christ and when you follow Christ you are following God. Do research at *www.biblegateway.com *on Jesus the son of God. There are *TONS of scripture *which support this. Muslim, Jews and Jehovah witnesses donot believe Jesus is God but they think he was a angel. Jesus is our intercessor and no body comes to the Father(God) by first believing on Jesus.
Jesus is God in flesh; the holy spirit is God in spirit. God was in heaven and on earth at the same time when Jesus walked the earth. 

God Bless


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## TJD3 (Feb 24, 2006)

I always thought that being a christian meant that you followed Christs teachings?  So that being said, you are a Christian.  I dont follow Muslim teachings, I follow Christs, so Im a christian.  When I say that I do not believe that Jesus is God, Im not sayihng hes an "angel", I jsut dont believe in the trinity.  I think all three are separate and work together.  Seated at the right hand of the Father, and different scriptures settled that for me.  Not to mention in my readings on Jesus I never remember Him saying that to be his follower that you had to believe He was God.  I always remember Him saying that He came here to bring the message for the one who sent Him.  That we can only be with the father, and to worship in spirit and in truth.  I believe thats in John.  Thats it for me!

Show me something I dont know ladies.   What am I missing.


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## Crackers Phinn (Feb 24, 2006)

TJD3 said:
			
		

> I dont think Jesus is God.  I know I am a Christian.  I see that as a technicality anyways.  We are to go through Jesus to get to God, not worship Jesus.  Does that make sense  ?  And no, Im not Jehova Witness.



I actually feel the same way, but I tend to keep it to myself around religious folks.


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## Trini"T" (Feb 24, 2006)

I was a bit confused about this also.  Throughout the bible Jesus calls God His Father.  He never said I AM God.  I never saw "God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy spirit in the bible either.  However, I'm convinced they are operating as one and I also read John 1:1 which reads, "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God" . Later in John 1:14 it states, "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us".  This is obviously speaking about Jesus Christ.  I too had a conversation about this with a Jehova's Witness but I forgot her reply.  Bottomline, she still didn't buy it 

Their "bible" says, "...the Word was *a god*..." I don't get that because if if Jesus is the Word and and he was a god, wouldn't that then mean that God is claiming another god After he already said we are not to have any other gods before Him, why would he present another god, Jesus Christ


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## TJD3 (Feb 24, 2006)

I honestly think its all open to interpretation, but the botton line is that we go through Jesus to get to God.  He was our living sacrifice to make way for us to get back to our father.  A living reminder.  Just as the bronze serpent was lifted to remind the Jews of Gods presence and relationship rebuilt with them, Jesus dying on the cross was our bronze serpent.  John talks about this in his book.

FOr example, when Jesus spoke to the women at the well.  I believe He told her that once the time comes, it would not matter where they worshiped . The bottom line, like I said before, is that they worship in spirit and truth.  Like Paul says in Corinthians when people were getting hung up on the fact that you could not be a part of Gods family if you were uncircumscised.  Paul told them that that is not the point, we are all welcomed in to the family of God if we believe that Jesus came down, walked among us, died, and rose again to fulfill the scripture.  I dont remember anything about anyone saying believe that Jesus is God or your not Christian.  I think as Christians we get hung up on technicalitys more so than the main point.

I love God, and I love His son Jesus Christ for what he chose to do for me and this world.  I do my best to try to be a christian, but thats what Jesus spoke about. Trying Christians are just that, trying.   Its about changing the spirit, the inner self, thus the mind will be transformed.  Its about maintaining relationship with God, not breaking that bond because he is always there.  Jesus allows us to reenter in that relationship with God through his sacrifice.  Thats how I see it.


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## fivefoursweetie (Feb 24, 2006)

This is a very interesting thread.  Good points have been made on both sides.
I grew up believing in the trinity, and about 2 years ago, a student at a divinity school told me that the trinity was a taught doctrine, but was never actually mentioned anywhere in the Bible.  I have done extensive research and I have not found any concrete "evidence" of the trinity.  I do think that a lot of things are up to "interpretation" and sometimes we believe things because that it what we were taught.  I don't really get too hung up on it, cause in the end I believe that Jesus is the son of God and died for my sins and that I worship God and pray In Jesus name, because I go through Jesus to get to God.  I hope if someone can enlighten me on something else they would share because I love to learn.
Great thread!!!


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## melangeK (Feb 25, 2006)

I believe that you can absolutely be a Christian w/o believing in the Trinity.  I've never really understood the Trinity, and have not found anything in the Bible that substansiates it.  Like one previous poster, I think Jesus sits @ the right hand of God; I've never seen the Holy Spirit as God...There is ONE God.  That's how I was taught the Bible growing up, and reading it for myself over the last 15+ years, it continues to hold water.   I think the Trinity is one of the most misunderstood ideas in Christianity, but that's just me. 

 However, at the end of the day, if you believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins, that God raised him from the dead, and you follow Christ Jesus as your Lord and Savior in your life, you are covered and VERY cool with me, regardless of whether you believe in the Trinity.  We're all on the same team! 

BTW, I'm not Jehovah's Witness either, and know very little about it.  Happy Bible studying!


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## Tamsin2005 (Feb 25, 2006)

There are many verses that can be studied to support the concept of the Trinity...One God, three persons.  Here are a smattering that talk about Jesus as God....John 1:1; Acts 20:28; John 20:28; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 1:8, Col 2:9. The Holy Spirit is identified as God in various scriptures too..Acts 5:3-4; 1John 4: 2, 3; Hebrews 10; 15, 16.  Also, the concept of unity is seen within the Trinity in verses like Matthew 28:19  (one "name"). Also Phil 2:5-11 is a good synopsis of Jesus' dual nature as both God and man. You friend will likely try to use many of these scriptures to support his view.

Part of understanding who Jesus is and His work is understanding who God is and how He reveals Himself to us throughout His Word beginning in Genesis.  He is the timeless, onmipotent God, who stepped into time and into flesh to save us from our sin. Jesus is that "last Adam" sent to do what the blood of animals could not; that is wipe our sins away.  We're so used to thinking in Greek mythology terms about "gods" who produced children with humans. These were less than full "gods" but more than human.  That is not the story of Jesus.  God can only be fully God. Human flesh did not diminish Him.

Your friend is not really interested in Bible study. He is there to debate with you and without knowing the language of the Bible and using a translation they created to support a view that is not bibical (they used the KJV for years and because of that scripture in John 1:1, they created a translation that suited their needs.  No other reputable translater translates that verse as "a god".  There are many who don't believe but they don't fake the translation).  It is highly likely that he will bring someone with him to your next study as that is a typical strategy they use. The bottom line is, they are not Christian and mostly are not interested in discussing any other view of the Bible than their own, which neither the language or church history support. I would lovingly but firmly cancel the study. I would continue to sincerely pray for him and others like him who have a genuine desire to know the Lord but have chosen to believe things that the Bible (God's word) does not support. It very much matters who you say Jesus is...


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## mkh_77 (Feb 25, 2006)

star said:
			
		

> You are *NOT* a Christian if you do not believe that Jesus is God in the flesh.





			
				Tamsin2005 said:
			
		

> The bottom line is, they are not Christian . . .



Please refrain from telling people what they are/are not based on your personal beliefs.

Like the other ladies who have posted, I believe that Jesus was the son of God, but not God, and I consider myself a Christian.


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## beyondcute (Feb 25, 2006)

No man can be God. Jesus was a man bt I believe he was hte son of God just as I believe we are all childern of God. I think Jesus was a sprphet sent to teach us the ways of the Father, out father. I am a christian because I try ro follow his teachings. 

Also about the trinity, I researched that after a pastor told me it was a teaching method. One way or the other I believe that Jesus was here and God exists and that Jesus was sent here by him to show us the truth the way and the light. Genetics and all that doesnt matter


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## Zeal (Feb 25, 2006)

alexstin said:
			
		

> How can someone believe that Jesus is not God and be a Christian? *It's an oxymoron*.


 
IMHO

Um why do you _not_ beleve Jesus is God?  

Do you believe the Father is God?  Do you think Jesus was a blasphemer?  Because he said:

 (John 10:29-31)
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 *I and the Father are one*." 

I can't say that I am God or he and I are one but I can say that he is in me.  If I said that he and I were one, that would be blasphemous.




			
				star said:
			
		

> *Jesus is God*. GOd multipled himself and put on a robe of flesh to become Jesus thats why he is called the *son of *God. *God the father, God the son(Jesus) and God the holy Ghost. These three are all God in different manifestations. *God wanted others to know that He understood the human part of us so He himself came from heaven to redeem us or to save His people. When He sent for Jesus to come to heaven God let us the Holy Spirit with in us to help us. Jesus sits on right hand side of God interceding for us as we pray. The holy spirit guides us and instructs us. God controls everything and everybody.
> 
> 
> God Bless


 
Come on up in here!!!! you bettah preach!



			
				JCoily said:
			
		

> I actually feel the same way, but I tend to keep it to myself around religious folks.



Are you "Religious Christian" or a non-religious Christian?

No offense but I am not religious I am saved.  I never understood what people meant or the concept of the term "Born-again Christian"  I used to think it was redundant.  But when you reeeeeally think about it, it makes sense.  I don't say it..... 
 If you say that you are Christian who am I to say that you are not?

What exactly do people mean when they say someoe is religious? I have a *relationship* with God and it is nothing religious about it.


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## mkh_77 (Feb 25, 2006)

Zeal said:
			
		

> (John 10:29-31)
> 30 *I and the Father are one*."



Husbands and wives are to become one when they are married, but they aren't interchangeable.  

In my opinion, Jesus was a manifestation of God, but he was not God, just as children are manifestations of their parents, but they are not interchangeable with their parents.  They (children) are separate entities, just as Jesus was a separate entity from God.

It is ok to not agree fully with everyone.  Each person should have their own opinion.  It is rude, however, to push your beliefs on someone and insist that they are wrong and you are right.  I also think it's rude and non-productive to continually categorize people who post in this forum.  It doesn't matter how a person views themselves, and they shouldn't be made to feel as if they have to explain themselves.  This is a forum to post ideas on Christianity.  Additionally, there are entirely too many subtle put-downs that get typed in this thread and are masked in Christian love.  I wish it would stop so there could be a more open discussion of Christianity.

ETA: According to Merriam Webster, religious means, "1 : relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity <a religious person> <religious attitudes>."


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## Lotus (Feb 25, 2006)

EbonyEyes said:
			
		

> Ladies, any other scriptures you can find that support Jesus being God would be greatly appreciated!
> 
> *I don't know what to say to this guy. I'm supposed to have Bible Study with him again on Monday and I don't wanna!*


 
Not trying to tell you what to do... I know religion is a very sensitive subject and we don't know each other... but- 

If your feeling of not wanting to 'study' with him is not of your flesh but of the Holy Spirit... then don't!  Can you determine, if the feeling flesh or of God?  If you can't then wait, and pray until you can.  I always seem to get in trouble when I ignore the Holy Spirit even when it feels like the nice/right think to do.  Be patient, and wait on your confirmation.  Just tell him you'd like to re-schedule... and you'll get back with him. 

God is not the author of confusion! Are you have "study" in the guise of being preached/ministered to?  It is your salvation, you have your own relationship with God and for that you are accountable. Guard your eyes and ears for they are window to your mind.

Did a quick search on the net... found this site, which seems to answer your question- http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/jesusgd2.htm -  I have not reviewed all the scriptures listed... with my Bible... so I have no 'true' opinion of the content.


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## bellydancer (Feb 25, 2006)

I don't think Jesus is God either. I thought he was God's SON.


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## Crackers Phinn (Feb 25, 2006)

Zeal said:
			
		

> IMHO
> 
> *Are you "Religious Christian" or a non-religious Christian?*
> 
> ...



Zeal, I don't know if you've read any of my other posts, but I have a tendency towards being abrupt, so if what I say sounds harsh, it's just the way I am and in no way directed to you.

I think of myself simply as a Christian. I don't require any additional titles on top of it.  Born Again and Saved are titles that seem just a bit elitist, as though there is a hierarchy in how God views those who love him. 

As for my use of the term 'religous folks', it's what I use to refer to people, who need to exert how much better they know the bible and the Lord than I do. Yay for them!  I don't argue the point with these types, because I wouldn't be presumptuous enough to think I had better insight than the next Christian as to the truest interpretation of the bible.


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## Crackers Phinn (Feb 25, 2006)

EbonyEyes said:
			
		

> I don't know what to say to this guy.  I'm supposed to have Bible Study with him again on Monday and I don't wanna!



I missed this the first time I read the post.

If you don't want to have bible study with him, then don't.


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## mkh_77 (Feb 25, 2006)

I agree with JCoily 100%.


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## alexstin (Feb 25, 2006)

Zeal,

I do believe Jesus is God. I was stating the irony of NOT believing that and saying you're a Christian.  Christianity isn't just about following the teachings of Jesus. If so than it's no different from  religion.

Religion is simply man's attempts to reach God. Not possible!

Jesus sacrificed Himself so that we could again have fellowship with the Father through the Holy Spirit. Jesus said He needed to leave so that the Comforter could come. Why was it so important for Holy Spirit to come? We need His power or otherwise our walk would always be a struggle.  Have you ever noticed how different the Apostles were before Jesus was crucified as opposed to after when He breathed on them and said Receive Holy Spirit? The boldness and power the Apostles had after Jesus ascended was nothing like the men who followed Jesus for 3 years.

When we come to Christ we are sealed with His Spirit but then we can also receive the infilling of His Spirit to give power. Too many Christians relegate Holy Spirit to the back of their lives when He should be at the forefront. Without Holy Spirit everything we do is out of "head" knowledge and nothing more. We'll recite scriptures and do good things but never truly affect the kingdom darkness. 


Think about it. Even the demons believe and tremble. What makes us different?


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## EbonyEyes (Feb 25, 2006)

Thank you ladies for the discussion.  It's really interesting.  And thank you so much Tamsin2005 for all of those verses.  I looked them up and typed some of them here:

I'm using the KJV.

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God."

John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth"

Acts 20:28 "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood"

**The New World Translation (the Bible the Jehovah's Witnesses use) translates the above verse as:  "Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son]."

**that verse reads very differently among the translations**

After Jesus told Thomas to touch his hands and his sides so that he might believe, the following is recorded:  John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God"

**The New World Translation basically says the same thing**

Titus 2:13 "Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ":  The New World Translation translates the above verse as: "While we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus"

Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith 'Thy throne, Oh God, is for ever and ever: A sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom"

**The New World Translation translates the above verse as: "But with reference to the Son:  "God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of righteousness"

Col 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

**The New World Translation translates the above verse as: "Because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily."

Acts 5:3-4 "But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own?  and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power?  why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God."

**The New World Translation reads similarly**


~~~~~~~~~

An interesting verse is 1 John 5:7 which reads (KJV):

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:  and these three are one."

**New World Translation:  "For there are three witness bearers, the spirit, the water, and the blood, and the three are in agreement"

Those read very differently.

1 John 3:16 "Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us"

**New World Translation:  "By this we have come to know love, because that one surrendered his soul for us"

Notice God was taken out in the New World Translation.

Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful Consellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace"

**It pretty much reads the same in the New World Translation


Jesus speaks in Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending...thich is, and which was, and which is to come, the almighty"

**The New World Translation "I am Alpha and the Omega *says Jehovah God* 'the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty'"

Their bible translation replaces Jesus speaking with Jehovah God speaking.

Jesus speaks again in Revelation 1:11 "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last"

**That part does NOT exist in the New World Translation.


~~~~~~~~~

I'm so glad that I'm going through the scriptures.  So I can see for myself who Jesus Christ is!!

But it's very weird though:  There are verses even in the New World Translation that support Jesus being God.


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## Enchantmt (Feb 25, 2006)

alexstin said:
			
		

> Zeal,
> 
> I do believe Jesus is God. I was stating the irony of NOT believing that and saying you're a Christian.  Christianity isn't just about following the teachings of Jesus. If so than it's no different from  religion.
> 
> ...



     Good post. 

______________________________




The thing to remember is that there are doctrines that are not called by name. The Trinity has been given as an example.  Dr Theime teaches different doctrines, such as rebounding also. I also don't believe the term "Christian" is in the bible. That doesnt mean it isnt valid because we have created a term to refer to a particular aspect. These things are clearly described in the bible. 

I'm not really going to get into religion vs religion, other than to say this: The word teaches that anyone who denies that Christ is the Lord and Savior is not true to the faith, they are not saved. Whether they are deceived, ignorant of the facts, or whatever. Anyone can practice the teachings of Christ, anyone can be moral. Biblical prinicples work for whomever chooses to use them. You reap what you sow, etc. However, if Christ is taken out of the equation, Christ, who died and has the power to forgive your sins, then all those principles dont mean squat. Christ enables your salvation, not your own works or any of those prinicples you would follow. You have to be very careful when you are presented with info and take this into account. Deception works best when it has twisted the truth. If it was obvious we wouldnt fall for it. 

I gave an example a long time ago of the course in miracles book. My sister had gotten it and was really excited about it and said she would buy me one if I wanted it. It was really expensive at the time.  I looked though it and all of the info looked good. It had how to relate to people, forgive people and have a good life. She was practicing the principles and getting good results. God is good however and my eyes fell on a passage that basically said Jesus was a concept, not someone who walked the earth and was the Son of God. Satan was a concept, not a REAL enemy that actively seeks my destruction.  Good and evil a concept. The book had everything she needed to have a successfull life on earth, but without Christ, without salvation, it means nothing. Now if I were to tell her or anyone getting good results that it was false, that it was bad, that it twisted doctrine, that it denies Christ, they would think I was crazy. How can it be false if they are getting results and are happier than they have ever been? They have the ingredients for successful living, but they dont have salvation, so it doesnt matter how happy their life is on earth, what goodwill is shown toward fellow man, in the end they would still go to hell. 

I say all this to say, know the word for yourself. Know what the bible says about salvation for yourself. Then when someone approaches you with cleverly worded phrases designed to cause doubt or seperation from God you are armed with what you need to guard your faith. 


Finally, there are different types of translations. Some are literal some arent.  If it is a literal translation is is supposed to be expressed exactly as it was in the original text, where others may paraphrase to make reading easier translate the meaning but its not word for word.  What I would suggest is finding a literal translation and then looking up the scriptures that were different in their bible and your bible and see how they are worded.


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## star (Feb 25, 2006)

Tamsin2005 said:
			
		

> There are many verses that can be studied to support the concept of the Trinity...One God, three persons.  Here are a smattering that talk about Jesus as God....John 1:1; Acts 20:28; John 20:28; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 1:8, Col 2:9. The Holy Spirit is identified as God in various scriptures too..Acts 5:3-4; 1John 4: 2, 3; Hebrews 10; 15, 16.  Also, the concept of unity is seen within the Trinity in verses like Matthew 28:19  (one "name"). Also Phil 2:5-11 is a good synopsis of Jesus' dual nature as both God and man. You friend will likely try to use many of these scriptures to support his view.
> 
> Part of understanding who Jesus is and His work is understanding who God is and how He reveals Himself to us throughout His Word beginning in Genesis.  He is the timeless, onmipotent God, who stepped into time and into flesh to save us from our sin. Jesus is that "last Adam" sent to do what the blood of animals could not; that is wipe our sins away.  We're so used to thinking in Greek mythology terms about "gods" who produced children with humans. These were less than full "gods" but more than human.  That is not the story of Jesus.  God can only be fully God. Human flesh did not diminish Him.
> 
> Your friend is not really interested in Bible study. He is there to debate with you and without knowing the language of the Bible and using a translation they created to support a view that is not bibical (they used the KJV for years and because of that scripture in John 1:1, they created a translation that suited their needs.  No other reputable translater translates that verse as "a god".  There are many who don't believe but they don't fake the translation).  It is highly likely that he will bring someone with him to your next study as that is a typical strategy they use. The bottom line is, they are not Christian and mostly are not interested in discussing any other view of the Bible than their own, which neither the language or church history support. I would lovingly but firmly cancel the study. I would continue to sincerely pray for him and others like him who have a genuine desire to know the Lord but have chosen to believe things that the Bible (God's word) does not support. It very much matters who you say Jesus is...


Thank for doing the research I did not have time to post. And ladies if you are in a Bible teaching Church this information should *be freely talked about*. Make sure you are under *somones teaching *and not teaching yourself *alone. *No matter *what we people interpret *the truth is the truth and nothing changes that. Seek after the truth, search the scriputres, ask question and please in Jesus name make sure you are in a Bible study at your Church.


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## star (Feb 25, 2006)

TJD3 said:
			
		

> I always thought that being a christian meant that you followed Christs teachings?  So that being said, you are a Christian.  I dont follow Muslim teachings, I follow Christs, so Im a christian.  When I say that I do not believe that Jesus is God, Im not sayihng hes an "angel", I jsut dont believe in the trinity.  I think all three are separate and work together.  Seated at the right hand of the Father, and different scriptures settled that for me.  Not to mention in my readings on Jesus I never remember Him saying that to be his follower that you had to believe He was God.  I always remember Him saying that He came here to bring the message for the one who sent Him.  That we can only be with the father, and to worship in spirit and in truth.  I believe thats in John.  Thats it for me!
> 
> Show me something I dont know ladies.   What am I missing.


My comments where not directed to you I was replying to the person with question. Talk to your pastor and others who *KNOW* God's word. Someone with *sound doctrine *not someone who just read the Bible. You must study, pray, fast and all the above with God's word. The whole Bible not just part of it.


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## star (Feb 25, 2006)

mkh_77 said:
			
		

> Please refrain from telling people what they are/are not based on your personal beliefs.
> 
> Like the other ladies who have posted, I believe that Jesus was the son of God, but not God, and I consider myself a Christian.


I am entitled to respond as I see and I was responding to the orignial question from the person who ask the question. She came right out and ask and I answer it just way it is. Not withdrawing anything standing on the principles of God's word. Thank you!!


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## TJD3 (Feb 25, 2006)

star said:
			
		

> My comments where not directed to you I was replying to the person with question. Talk to your pastor and others who *KNOW* God's word. Someone with *sound doctrine *not someone who just read the Bible. You must study, pray, fast and all the above with God's word. The whole Bible not just part of it.


 
I didnt think they were, I was stating my opinion.  Its funny that you say "who knows"  if they were taught to see the things a certain way for years, thats how they will see it. All this colorful language is annoying to me, because I get tired of hearing Bible study words reiterated that someone heard from someone "who knows".   Show me someone who KNOWS  and you'll show me someone that has all the answers.  No one knows anything but the basics, that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus came down, walked among us, died, and rose on the third day we are saved.  Thats the bottom line.  You can stick whatever you want inbetween, they are technicalitys. Jesus himself said those things are unimportant.  Last I checked Jesus never said He was God.  He always spoke of His Father.  Other humans said he were God.  Im going by what my Lord, messiah (anointed one) speaks about.  A change in spirit, letting the worldy flesh die, and be full in spirit.  I want one of you to show me scripture where He says He is God, than I will be sold.  When I read the bible I find a lot of His own followers did not even understand Him completely.  They always seemed to fall short in understanding where He was coming from.  Many mistook Jesus' teachings literally than for the inferences they were.  People that come to mind are Nicodemus, the woman at the well, the apostles, the pharasees.  Im sure it goes on and on.  So please do not tell me to go find someone who knows.  Ask me what I have been doing, and whom Ive spoken too and where I get my ideas from.  If someone really knew all the answers, we would nt have so many different denominations within christianity.  Dont fall short and turn into the olden day Jews excluding folks because they thought they were the "ones".  Also as far as Jesus saying He is the Alph and the Omega, wasnt He there from the beginning?  We all know He will be there till the end as well.  Its all interpretation.


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## fivefoursweetie (Feb 25, 2006)

EbonyEyes said:
			
		

> An interesting verse is 1 John 5:7 which reads (KJV):
> 
> "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:  and these three are one."



Thank you for that verse...that helped a lot for me!!! 

And that was a great post Enchantmt...very encouraging!!! Thanks


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## TrustMeLove (Feb 25, 2006)

Very interesting thread. I am too much of a fighter for and in Jesus, so I won't post on the thread. But, I would just like to say to some of you ladies stay encourage. Continue to pray that the Holy Spirit helps you pick your battles and have the right things to say to spread his message effectively. 

Excellent post by so many alexstin, star, and tamsin just to name a few.

Keep up the good fight.


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## Tamsin2005 (Feb 26, 2006)

EbonyEyes:  There's a website called freeminds.org that has lots of information about witnessing to JW's. Many years ago, I used to subscribe to the newletter Randy Watters started after he left that organization. Your post made me search for him again. Thank you for that!

TJD3: For so many years we as Christians have relied on what "someone else" has told us about Jesus and the Bible and we have not taken the time to do the study ourselves. The Good news is that God gave us His word to "make Him known" to us. So it's purpose is to reveal God to us. The Bible has to be read both for it's spiritual truth, historical accuracy and cultural context. We read our translations as modern day Americans and not as those who lived at that time. Many of the things that seem questionable to us where plain in the context of the time and the culture of that day. So when we come to the Bible we already have some homework to do. Most of us for example aren't raised in Jewish households with Jewish customs so the context of many things He says is lost on us.

You mention that Jesus never says He was God, however it is clear that everyone around Him, especially the Jewish hierarchy at that time understood clearly that He was in fact directly making that claim. The "crime" that got Him crucified was blasphemy-- making Himself equal with God. (John 8:57-59; John10:30-33)  Throughout the NT, Jesus ascribes to Himself all of the qualities of God...He allows others to worship Him  (Mt 28:9 for example, He says that He is our Redeemer (see Ps 130.7,8 and compare Acts 2028; the great "I AM"  (compare Ex 3:14, Deut. 32:39 , Isaiah 43:10 to John 8:24, John 8:28 and John 18:4-6). 

There's more of course but what I've learned throughout my walk with the Lord is the truth of that scripture that says that we will find Him if we seek Him with all of our hearts. Just as we had to study to learn our subjects in school, we have to study God's word.  We need good pastors but we also have a personal responsibility in this. The issue you mention about Jesus as God is the core question in Christianity.  It is one I have struggled some with in the past. I have gone from "blind" faith believer, to somewhat of a doubter, to a strong "open eyed" worshipper because if all His word says about Him is true, I owe Him a great debt. If it's false, then I am still lost and dead in my sins and Jesus was a misguided though very nice man.  So for me it became a "crisis" of faith that has resulted in a greater understanding of the magnitude of His sacrifice for us.


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## BabeinChrist (Feb 26, 2006)

I believe in the Trinity. God the father, God the Son, and God they Holy Spirit.


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## mkh_77 (Feb 26, 2006)

star said:
			
		

> . . . standing on the principles of God's word. Thank you!!



Actually, you are standing on the principles of your personal beliefs and your interpretation of God's word.  Additionally, you are relegating those who don't believe as you do to a non-entity.  I've witnessed you and others do it time and time again in other posts.  So, thank you!

None of us know the exact translation and inspiration of the scriptures because:

1.  Many of the scriptures were inspired writings of men;
2.  Many of the scriptures no longer exist, and
3.  Of the scriptures that do exist, very few people understand the true translation because those scriptures are in a sense, time sensitive.  They were written in a time that is very different from the society we live in.

As a Christian you (generally speaking) should realize that you are in no position to judge others, but it seems as if that teaching is lost in many threads in this particular forum, and it is seeping out to other forums.

There is a very nasty vibe that smacks of elitism in this thread and often times in this forum, and I don't think that it will bring any new people to Christ.  I've stated before that if I weren't firm in my relationship with God, I wouldn't pursue it any further after reading some of the things written in this forum.

So, for all of you "Christians" who continue to separate yourselves from people who aren't good enough for you because they don't believe exactly what you believe or want to take your word as the gospel truth, don't be surprised when people don't come to God on account of your example.

ETA:  Please don't suggest that I go and talk to someone who "knows" the Word and who has "sound doctrine."  I know the Word, and I have sound doctrine as Religion was one of my majors in college.  I made sure I was the first to sign up for the Historical Jesus class taught by the Faculty head who also happened to be an ordained minister.  I also took several Old Testament and New Testament classes as well, not to mention I have always been very active in my church.


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## TJD3 (Feb 26, 2006)

Tamsin2005 said:
			
		

> EbonyEyes: There's a website called freeminds.org that has lots of information about witnessing to JW's. Many years ago, I used to subscribe to the newletter Randy Watters started after he left that organization. Your post made me search for him again. Thank you for that!
> 
> TJD3: For so many years we as Christians have relied on what "someone else" has told us about Jesus and the Bible and we have not taken the time to do the study ourselves. The Good news is that God gave us His word to "make Him known" to us. So it's purpose is to reveal God to us. The Bible has to be read both for it's spiritual truth, historical accuracy and cultural context. We read our translations as modern day Americans and not as those who lived at that time. Many of the things that seem questionable to us where plain in the context of the time and the culture of that day. So when we come to the Bible we already have some homework to do. Most of us for example aren't raised in Jewish households with Jewish customs so the context of many things He says is lost on us.
> 
> ...


 
I truly appreciate your post, the best Ive seen!  I agree withyour method of study, because that is how I try to approach it.  What people of the time thought, and their customs.  What did it for me me was when you said that His crime was what upset the Pharasees and your right, He never denied it!  I like that example because I often find when people would question our Lord on something that was incorrect He did not hesitate to correct them .  Thank you for that bit of info.  Im going to do some study today, and ask God for some direction and spiritual food.  A sister has been starving lately for many different reasons.  I just ask that you all please pray for me.  Believe me when I say, I do love my Jesus, I know He is something more than special.  Thank you.


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## TJD3 (Feb 26, 2006)

mkh_77 said:
			
		

> Actually, you are standing on the principles of your personal beliefs and your interpretation of God's word. Additionally, you are relegating those who don't believe as you do to a non-entity. I've witnessed you and others do it time and time again in other posts. So, thank you!
> 
> None of us know the exact translation and inspiration of the scriptures because:
> 
> ...


 
Yup, yup!  That is why I appreciate Tamsins post, sister gave something small and it opened up some questions for me.  Thats what I look for when being shown new things, minus all the other rhetoric.


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## star (Feb 26, 2006)

mkh_77 said:
			
		

> Actually, you are standing on the principles of your personal beliefs and your interpretation of God's word.  Additionally, you are relegating those who don't believe as you do to a non-entity.  I've witnessed you and others do it time and time again in other posts.  So, thank you!
> 
> None of us know the exact translation and inspiration of the scriptures because:
> 
> ...


_Quote from:mkh_77 "So, for all of you "Christians" who continue to separate yourselves from people who aren't good enough for you because they don't believe exactly what you believe or want to take your word as the gospel truth, don't be surprised when people don't come to God on account of your example."_

Who said this? Please do no bring the wrong spirit in. Nobody was directly anything to you. The question again was for the person who asked it. We here know how to agree to disagree in Love and nobody here has these feeling coming in this discussion.  Some of us have been here for awhile and never seperate ourselves from anyone. Recieve the information in *spirit *in which it is intended. The replies given were for the person who ASKED the question.


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## star (Feb 26, 2006)

TJD3 said:
			
		

> Yup, yup!  That is why I appreciate Tamsins post, sister gave something small and it opened up some questions for me.  Thats what I look for when being shown new things, minus all the other rhetoric.


You have good and humble spirit. Keeping open to God is the key to growth.


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## mkh_77 (Feb 26, 2006)

star said:
			
		

> Who said this? Please do no bring the wrong spirit in. Nobody was directly anything to you. The question again was for the person who asked it. We here know how to agree to disagree in Love and nobody here has these feeling coming in this discussion.  Some of us have been here for awhile and never seperate ourselves from anyone. Recieve the information in *spirit *in which it is intended. The replies given were for the person who ASKED the question.



I never wrote that anyone said anything.  I wrote about the feeling I get from the posts in this forum.  The nasty feelings masked in love.  

I am not bringing in "the wrong spirit."  I am trying to have an educated debate about a tenant of Christianity.  The fact that I believe something different from you, or anyone else is just that, a difference.  Wrong spirit?  I don't think so.  Difference of opinion?  Yes. 

I have been a member on this board for a while, too, and have read several posts about Christians separating themselves from others (reference the equally yoked thread).

If the replies were given for the person who asked the question, why did you quote me?

Don't slap me and tell me you are hugging me.  I know nastiness when I see it, and I see it in this forum a lot.


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## alexstin (Feb 26, 2006)

Tamsin2005 said:
			
		

> TJD3: For so many years we as Christians have relied on what "someone else" has told us about Jesus and the Bible and we have not taken the time to do the study ourselves. The Good news is that God gave us His word to "make Him known" to us. So it's purpose is to reveal God to us. The Bible has to be read both for it's spiritual truth, historical accuracy and cultural context. We read our translations as modern day Americans and not as those who lived at that time. Many of the things that seem questionable to us where plain in the context of the time and the culture of that day. So when we come to the Bible we already have some homework to do. Most of us for example aren't raised in Jewish households with Jewish customs so the context of many things He says is lost on us.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Dogmd (Feb 26, 2006)

A christian believes that Jesus is God.  God is a trinity of three..  God the Father, God the Son (Jesus) and God the Holy spirit.


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## star (Feb 26, 2006)

mkh_77 said:
			
		

> I never wrote that anyone said anything.  I wrote about the feeling I get from the posts in this forum.  The nasty feelings masked in love.
> 
> I am not bringing in "the wrong spirit."  I am trying to have an educated debate about a tenant of Christianity.  The fact that I believe something different from you, or anyone else is just that, a difference.  Wrong spirit?  I don't think so.  Difference of opinion?  Yes.
> 
> ...


Calm down you are over reacting. I sent you a quote because you specifically made a comment about something I said. Go back and read what you said. Start from the beginning.


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## newme2003 (Feb 26, 2006)

Ebonyeyes,

I would suggest that you check out www.carm.org (The Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry) They have a section on JW. 

I am Christian and I know that Jesus, the Holy Spirit and The Father are God and are one.  I happen to work with a JW who I respect very much.  Of course our beliefs are completely different.  I found at the beginning when we started to get close (can't say friendship because they can't be friends with non JWs) a lot of what she said to me seemed like sound doctrine causing me to become doubtful about my own beliefs.  This confusion for me was a blessing from God because it helped me to realize that many of my own beliefs were based on things I had been taught not on what I had studied for myself.  As a result I dug into my own bible and did my own studying.  As a result my initial beliefs about the Trinity were confirmed.  As someone stated before although there is no mention of the word trinity there are many references to the deity of all three (Father, Son and Holy Spirit).  i.e. in the Hebrew manuscripts in Genesis Elohim is used for "God".  This word is plural not singular. "Immanuel"  means God with us - not God's representative with us.

But going back to this man you met... one thing seems suspicious to me.  One thing I remember hearing from my coworker is that men are supposed to "study" with men and "women" with women.  

Anyway, you can try to plant a seed but please know that it would pretty much be futile to try to have a discussion with a JW. It would pretty much be onesided.  They are not really interested in what "wordly" (anyone who is not a JW including christians) have to say and even if they hear you they already have a trained response for what you have to say.  (if she says "a" I  respond with "b"). They go to "studies" at least three times a week. They are taught what to say and what to think without the freedom to question what they are being taught.  They are conditioned to block out anything that goes against what they believe. One more thing.  Everytime they witness to someone or "study" with someone they are building up heavenly points. Yes they actually have to report this stuff to the watchtower/kingdom hall.  Yep, I would take Jesus' yoke over this stuff any day. Don't humor this guy. Again, check out that site and there are so many other sites if you're interested.  Just do some research.


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## star (Feb 26, 2006)

Here is some info I found from Bible school.

http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?p=1316842#post1316842


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## mkh_77 (Feb 26, 2006)

star said:
			
		

> Calm down you are over reacting. I sent you a quote because you specifically made a comment about something I said. Go back and read what you said. Start from the beginning.



I have read your comments and mine, hence my response.  

No one is upset, and I am not overreacting.  I am simply making my point just as you made yours.


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## star (Feb 26, 2006)

mkh_77 said:
			
		

> I have read your comments and mine, hence my response.
> 
> No one is upset, and I am not overreacting.  I am simply making my point just as you made yours.


OK. I want talk to you more about this possibly off line think about it. God bless.


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## mkh_77 (Feb 26, 2006)

star said:
			
		

> OK. I want talk to you more about this possibly off line think about it. God bless.



Sure.  PM me when you get the chance.


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## secretdiamond (Feb 26, 2006)

alexstin said:
			
		

> I agree.* I recently purchased a book about biblical customs. It's amazing how much we can misinterpret if we don't know the historical references. For instance, the scripture about it being easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to go to Heaven. It was years before I found out that the needle wasn't a needle as we think of it today.*
> 
> Also, last year I  purchased a book on the inductive study method of the bible. It didn't take me long to realized how much I had missed by just reading my bible subjectively. Now I know how to really dig into the truths of God's word.
> 
> We have so many resources at our fingertips. Hopefully we're all taking advantage of them because ultimately we the only ones responsible for our spiritual knowledge



Don't wanna hijack the thread, so can you PM me elaborating on this please? This seems very interesting. And what's the name of the book you are speaking of? TIA.


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## Poohbear (Feb 26, 2006)

What Trinity is NOT:
3-in-1 does NOT mean that God (Father), Jesus (Son), & Holy Spirit are the same
They are NOT the same
They are NOT 3 separate gods either

What Trinity IS:
*The unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead according to Christian dogma
*The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit one in essence (in nature)
*Jesus and the Holy Spirit work together in Christians in order for us to have a relationship and constant communication with God

This image may help you out to a great extent:






John 1:1-18 is a great scripture in the Bible to support the concept of Trinity.

Check out this nice website to help you out more about Trinity, especially Part 05: http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/trinity.htm


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## mkh_77 (Feb 26, 2006)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> What Trinity is NOT:
> 3-in-1 does NOT mean that God (Father), Jesus (Son), & Holy Spirit are the same
> They are NOT the same
> They are NOT 3 separate gods either
> ...



I have a question.  So, are you implying (please don't associate anything negative with this word) with this post that Jesus does not equal God?  That Jesus and God are not interchangeable?  That Jesus and God are not the same?

TIA.


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## Poohbear (Feb 26, 2006)

mkh_77 said:
			
		

> I have a question. So, are you implying (please don't associate anything negative with this word) with this post that Jesus does not equal God? That Jesus and God are not interchangeable? That Jesus and God are not the same?
> 
> TIA.


Correct but, I'm not implying anything (I know you weren't being negative or anything  ) ... I'm saying it straight out that the Father, Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit are three persons in one Godhead.  The Father, Jesus and The Holy Spirit are one in essence (in nature)... NOT the same so to speak. That's trinity and that's what I believe in.

It is confusing.  I think that's why we have some people who believe in trinity and those who do not believe in it because we do not completely understand the concept. Many people do not believe in the concept of Trinity because they think it means God, Jesus, & the H.S. are all the same when that is certainly not true.  They may also argue that the word 'trinity' is not in the Bible.  That does not matter... it's the concept behind Trinity.

HTH!


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## mkh_77 (Feb 26, 2006)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> Correct but, I'm not implying anything (I know you weren't being negative or anything  ) ... I'm saying it straight out that the Father, Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit are three persons in one Godhead.  The Father, Jesus and The Holy Spirit are one in essence (in nature)... NOT the same so to speak. That's trinity and that's what I believe in.
> 
> It is confusing.  I think that's why we have some people who believe in trinity and those who do not believe in it because we do not completely understand the concept. Many people do not believe in the concept of Trinity because they think it means God, Jesus, & the H.S. are all the same when that is certainly not true.  They may also argue that the word 'trinity' is not in the Bible.  That does not matter... it's the concept behind Trinity.
> 
> HTH!



Thank you for posting this.  This is what I believe, and I think you put it into words better than I could have.


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## TJD3 (Feb 26, 2006)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> Correct but, I'm not implying anything (I know you weren't being negative or anything  ) ... I'm saying it straight out that the Father, Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit are three persons in one Godhead. The Father, Jesus and The Holy Spirit are one in essence (in nature)... NOT the same so to speak. That's trinity and that's what I believe in.
> 
> It is confusing. I think that's why we have some people who believe in trinity and those who do not believe in it because we do not completely understand the concept. Many people do not believe in the concept of Trinity because they think it means God, Jesus, & the H.S. are all the same when that is certainly not true. They may also argue that the word 'trinity' is not in the Bible. That does not matter... it's the concept behind Trinity.
> 
> ...


 

Hmmm, maybe this is what Im thinking but didn know how to describe.  That they are in unity.... I dont even know how to describe it outside of what you said.  I think of it sometimes like a pizza (immature, I know).  Youve got crust, cheese, and pepporoni.  One pizza, but three seperate entities working together to achieve the same thing.  Does that make sense ?


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## TJD3 (Feb 26, 2006)

mkh_77 said:
			
		

> Thank you for posting this. This is what I believe, and I think you put it into words better than I could have.


 
Right  !!  Go Poohbear ! Little sassy thing . I think in essence we are all saying the same thing, its the wording thats got us confused.


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## Poohbear (Feb 26, 2006)

TJD3 said:
			
		

> Hmmm, maybe this is what Im thinking but didn know how to describe. That they are in unity.... I dont even know how to describe it outside of what you said. I think of it sometimes like a pizza (immature, I know). Youve got crust, cheese, and pepporoni. One pizza, but three seperate entities working together to achieve the same thing. Does that make sense ?


LOL!

Or you can think of it this way...

When a man and a woman get married, they are united with God.  God, the husband, and the wife are three in one.


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## mkh_77 (Feb 26, 2006)

Husbands and wives are to become one when they are married, but they aren't interchangeable.  

In my opinion, Jesus was a manifestation of God, but he was not God, just as children are manifestations of their parents, but they are not interchangeable with their parents.  They (children) are separate entities, just as Jesus was a separate entity from God."


I think I was getting there when I wrote this above, but I like Poohbear's explanation a lot.  Thanks, again.


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## Poohbear (Feb 26, 2006)

I also wanted to explain some phrases used in John Chapter 1...

"the Word" - what does it mean?
John's description shows clearly that he is speaking of Jesus--a human being he knew and loved, but at the same time... the Creator of the universe, the ultimate revelation of God, the *living picture of God's holiness*, the one by whom "all things consist"

"Jesus was God"
When Christ was born, God became a man.  He was not part man and part God; he was completely human and completely divine.  Before Christ came, people could know God partially. After Christ came, people could know God fully because he became visible and tangible in Christ. Christ is the perfect expression of God in human form.  That's all.  *The most common erros that people make about Jesus are to minimize his humanity or to minimize his divinity*.

"And the Word was made flesh" - what does it mean?
This means Jesus becoming human.  Christ became the perfect teacher, the perfect example, and the perfect sacrifice for all of His Elect.


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## Poohbear (Feb 26, 2006)

your welcome mkh_77!


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## cocoberry10 (Feb 26, 2006)

Wow, this is an excellent thread!  You ladies have really got me thinking.  I guess I always saw Jesus as the Son of God.  Yes, we are all sons of God, but he was the greatest Son.  

As odd a comparison as this may seem, I think of him the way Satan used to be in God's eyes before his fall.  Satan was the greatest cherub of all, the highest of high, and then he could no longer take being below God, and wanted to become God.  My pastor did an excellent sermon on this, and said that he believed Satan became jealous of God to the point of trying to become him, b/c Satan was ashamed of how beautiful God really was (even though in the bible, Satan--King of Tyre) was described as incredibly beautiful--more beautiful than anyone else (besides God)).

Although I believe in the trinity, I think it is way overcomplicated by churches and the "religious leaders."  I think of the trinity the way I think of H20 (water).  It has 3 different forms, which make it three different things.  For instance, when H2O is liquid, it's water.  When H2O is solid, it's ice.  When 
H2O boils, it becomes gas and eventually evaporates in the air.  That's exactly how I think of the trinity.  Three different forms, three different beings, with different purposes.  I believe if someone is really unsure, they should ask God, and don't worry about what man tells you.


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## Crackers Phinn (Feb 26, 2006)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> *Correct but, I'm not implying anything (I know you weren't being negative or anything  ) ... I'm saying it straight out that the Father, Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit are three persons in one Godhead.  The Father, Jesus and The Holy Spirit are one in essence (in nature)... NOT the same so to speak. That's trinity and that's what I believe in.
> *



I agree with that Poohbear said. 

I don't understand why this has to be such a divisive belief.


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## Poohbear (Feb 26, 2006)

cocoberry10 said:
			
		

> Wow, this is an excellent thread! You ladies have really got me thinking. I guess I always saw Jesus as the Son of God. Yes, we are all sons of God, but he was the greatest Son.
> 
> As odd a comparison as this may seem, I think of him the way Satan used to be in God's eyes before his fall. Satan was the greatest cherub of all, the highest of high, and then he could no longer take being below God, and wanted to become God. My pastor did an excellent sermon on this, and said that he believed Satan became jealous of God to the point of trying to become him, b/c Satan was ashamed of how beautiful God really was (even though in the bible, Satan--King of Tyre) was described as incredibly beautiful--more beautiful than anyone else (besides God)).
> 
> ...


 
*I LOVE YOUR H2O ANALOGY!!! *


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## Zeal (Feb 26, 2006)

alexstin said:
			
		

> Zeal,
> 
> I do believe Jesus is God. I was stating the irony of NOT believing that and saying you're a Christian. Christianity isn't just about following the teachings of Jesus. If so than it's no different from religion.
> 
> ...


 
I *know* that you believe.  I am on your side.  My comment was not directed to you.  I was agreeing with you.  I just thought it was funny the way that you worded it.


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## EbonyEyes (Feb 26, 2006)

Whew!!!!!!

Okay so I told the guy that we disagreed on something that means so much to me and that's who Jesus Christ is.

He then kept me on the phone for over an hour hurling out scriptures to counter my claims.

Ya'll...he's really good!  He knows those scriptures boy!!!

But I didn't sway.  I had scriptures to support my belief but I knew that it wouldn't sway him either.  I just decided to put it out there.  I told him that we can stay on the phone for 4 hours and we are still not going to agree.

So I told him that I appreciate his invite because it allowed me to discover for myself who Jesus Christ was by asking God and reading the scriptures with God's interpretation and not my own.

I then told him that it wouldn't be right for us to continue having bible study together.

He seemed understanding and said he admired my questioning mind and how I research to discover the truth.  And he hopes that one day I'll discover the truth because we can only worship God in spirit AND in truth...*Uh huh*.

So that's what happened!


----------



## Tamsin2005 (Feb 27, 2006)

Sounds like you did a great job my dear!   And your question challenged many of us to "search the scriptures" about these issues.  Thank you!


----------



## melangeK (Feb 27, 2006)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> What Trinity is NOT:
> 3-in-1 does NOT mean that God (Father), Jesus (Son), & Holy Spirit are the same
> They are NOT the same
> They are NOT 3 separate gods either
> ...


----------



## star (Feb 27, 2006)

Tamsin2005 said:
			
		

> Sounds like you did a great job my dear!   And your question challenged many of us to "search the scriptures" about these issues.  Thank you!


Yes, we are so proud of you. God use you to bring information and revelation to someone. That is what this is all about seeking the scriptures and talking with others. 

My final thoughts:

Sometimes we respond not understanding where people are with *their walk and their talk*. Everyone is at different levels and through faith, love, studying, praying etc. we will all get where we need to be.

Now we know God is over Jesus and Holy Spirit and these all came from God so He is God(Head). Mary became pregnant by the Holy spirit* not a human*. God was in heaven and earth at the same time but in another form(the flesh). God had to put on the robe of flesh and come to earth so He himself could experience what it feels like to be hurt, hungry, betrayed, happy, sad etc. If you study the old testament throughly you will see many complain to their leaders such as Moses that God did not understand what they were going through(I am paraphrasing) thats why in some cases there was alot of mourning and bitterness with God's chosen people. So God in *Isisiah 9:6 proclaimed**the coming of Jesus *and what he would do. Some of reactions from some where taken to the extreme because is what not clear so scriptures to back up any response is the *absolute key*.
All in all it is all good and this teaches us that many us look at things differently but with the proper scriptures, love, fasting/praying, bible study, more bible study, and *most importantly *praying to God for understanding the truth will be revealed. For some scriptures I understood what they meant but it was not until I experience something that it really came alive for me so *life is good teacher *too and when have the scriputes you can apply it to each and everything that happens in your life.

*
   Isaiah 9:6*
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: *and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, *The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


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## Poohbear (Feb 27, 2006)

you're welcome melangeK!!!


----------



## EbonyEyes (Feb 27, 2006)

star said:
			
		

> Yes, we are so proud of you. God use you to bring information and revelation to someone. That is what this is all about seeking the scriptures and talking with others.
> 
> My final thoughts:
> 
> ...




Thank you Star!

I love the above post.  Many times during prayer, I thank God for Jesus, not only because he died for our sins (which is huge in of itself) but because 1) I understand better the nature of God because Jesus was a perfect manifestation of God and 2) Jesus, as a man, experienced what humans experience.  It comforts me that God knows what I'm going through because Jesus went through it -- He ate, he slept, he learned, he prayed, he was tempted, he suffered, and he cried.

When I cry to God about something that's going on in my life, I know He understands because the Son lived a human life as well and knows how difficult it is.

When I'm hurt because someone I called a friend abandons me, I know that He understands because Jesus was betrayed by his friend Judas and denied by his friend Peter.

As I continue to gain wisdom, I remember that Jesus had to learn as well.  He had to study the Torah and pray -- and as he did that, he learned more of what His purpose was.

I am grateful for Jesus and I am grateful that my Heavenly Father saw that we his children needed Jesus to come and show us the way.


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## EbonyEyes (Feb 27, 2006)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> What Trinity is NOT:
> 3-in-1 does NOT mean that God (Father), Jesus (Son), & Holy Spirit are the same
> They are NOT the same
> They are NOT 3 separate gods either
> ...



Wow!  Thanks Poohbear!  And that image was a great help.  I really must be a visual person!


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## EbonyEyes (Feb 27, 2006)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> *I LOVE YOUR H2O ANALOGY!!! *



I agree!  That analogy is awesome.  I'm going to use it!


----------



## EbonyEyes (Feb 27, 2006)

cocoberry10 said:
			
		

> I believe if someone is really unsure, they should ask God, and don't worry about what man tells you.



This is key!

My mom has told me that it is so incredibly important to know the Word for yourself and to ask God for guidance.

So when the JW told me that Jesus wasn't God, I took his comments in for consideration because I realized that _the reason I believed Jesus was God was because I was taught that by **people**_.

So I went into prayer and I paraphrase:  "Father God, people have told me all of my life that Jesus was God.  And then I have a gentleman tell me that Jesus wasn't.  To this point, I've been listening to people.  Can _you_ reveal to me through your voice and your Word who Jesus Christ is?"

And then I sung one of my favorite songs by the Kurt Carr singers:

"Just one word is all we need to destroy captivity and break the chains that are binding.  One Rhema word, designed with your expertise tailor made for me.  Speak Lord, through Your Word, reveal Yourself to me."

Then I began searching the scriptures, asking for God's guidance along the way.

And God revealed the truth to me.

So I learned a very valuable lesson.  It's okay to consult pastors and religious leaders.  But ultimate confirmation should come from God.


----------



## star (Feb 27, 2006)

AMEN!! We need a combination of it all with God being the main source.


			
				EbonyEyes said:
			
		

> This is key!
> 
> My mom has told me that it is so incredibly important to know the Word for yourself and to ask God for guidance.
> 
> ...


----------



## cocoberry10 (Feb 27, 2006)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> *I LOVE YOUR H2O ANALOGY!!! *



Thanks Poohbear!


----------



## JuJuBoo (Feb 28, 2006)

*DANGIT I'm LATE!* 

I was going to add something, but wow, everything was said, and *well* said! (aaand it was much shorter than the previous and imfamous Trinity thread.  ) Kudos to EbonyEyes. Girl, I commend you for breaking out both translations and REALLY seeing where they differ and where the TRUTH is. This was a *GREAT* thread!


----------



## star (Feb 28, 2006)

JuJuBoo said:
			
		

> *DANGIT I'm LATE!*
> 
> I was going to add something, but wow, everything was said, and *well* said! (aaand it was much shorter than the previous and imfamous Trinity thread.  ) Kudos to EbonyEyes. Girl, I commend you for breaking out both translations and REALLY seeing where they differ and where the TRUTH is. This was a *GREAT* thread!


I was looking and waiting for you to add your *anointed* 2 cents which would have been worth 2 million.


----------



## EbonyEyes (Feb 28, 2006)

This guy is persistent!  He just emailed me (he had my email address because I emailed him about having the fashion show pictures ready) and told me on watchtower.org is an article called "Is Jesus Christ God?".  He ends the email with "Keep searching for your answers!!  1 John 4:1"

He won't let this thing go.


----------



## MrsQueeny (Mar 1, 2006)

EbonyEyes said:
			
		

> This guy is persistent!  He just emailed me (he had my email address because I emailed him about having the fashion show pictures ready) and told me on watchtower.org is an article called "Is Jesus Christ God?".  He ends the email with "Keep searching for your answers!!  1 John 4:1"
> 
> He won't let this thing go.


Report him as spam so you won't get anymore emails.  They can be persistent I had a couple that would come over and I had to firmly tell them no.  I told them that we would not convince each other and that I was very happy with my church and that they should try to reach out to those who don't believe in GOD or had a church home. Q


----------



## EbonyEyes (Mar 1, 2006)

JuJuBoo said:
			
		

> *DANGIT I'm LATE!*
> 
> I was going to add something, but wow, everything was said, and *well* said! (aaand it was much shorter than the previous and imfamous Trinity thread.  ) Kudos to EbonyEyes. Girl, I commend you for breaking out both translations and REALLY seeing where they differ and where the TRUTH is. This was a *GREAT* thread!



JuJuBoo!!  How are you sweetie?


----------



## JuJuBoo (Mar 1, 2006)

EbonyEyes said:
			
		

> JuJuBoo!!  How are you sweetie?




Hey! I'm fine! Been mad busy with work that's why I've been MIA.


----------



## Blackbird77 (Mar 2, 2006)

newme2003 said:
			
		

> Ebonyeyes,
> 
> I would suggest that you check out www.carm.org (The Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry) They have a section on JW.
> 
> ...


 
May I ask how do you know this?  Did he tell you that?  Just wondering.


----------



## newme2003 (Mar 2, 2006)

Blackbird77,

I promise that I will respond to this later on tonight. I am at work and do not have the links to the different websites I got this from.


----------



## Sweet C (Mar 2, 2006)

newme2003 said:
			
		

> Anyway, you can try to plant a seed but please know that it would pretty much be futile to try to have a discussion with a JW. It would pretty much be onesided. They are not really interested in what "wordly" (anyone who is not a JW including christians) have to say and even if they hear you they already have a trained response for what you have to say. (if she says "a" I respond with "b"). They go to "studies" at least three times a week. They are taught what to say and what to think without the freedom to question what they are being taught. They are conditioned to block out anything that goes against what they believe. One more thing. *Everytime they witness to someone or "study" with someone they are building up heavenly points. Yes they actually have to report this stuff to the watchtower/kingdom hall. *Yep, I would take Jesus' yoke over this stuff any day. Don't humor this guy. Again, check out that site and there are so many other sites if you're interested. Just do some research.


 
In the words of my man Flame, "Is that in the bible? that in the bible?".  We know that is not in the Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant canons.  So is it even in the JW bible

Jujuboo, girl where have you been?  We have missed you.


----------



## Blackbird77 (Mar 2, 2006)

newme2003 said:
			
		

> Blackbird77,
> 
> I promise that I will respond to this later on tonight. I am at work and do not have the links to the different websites I got this from.


 
You don't have to do that, newme.  I just wanted to know if he said that to you are not.  Thanks for answering my question.


----------



## newme2003 (Mar 2, 2006)

Blackbird77 said:
			
		

> You don't have to do that, newme.  I just wanted to know if he said that to you are not.  Thanks for answering my question.



My coworker is a woman and no she did not tell me this.  I got this information from a couple of apologetics websites and sites dedicated to ex JWs.


----------



## Crystalicequeen123 (Mar 2, 2006)

EbonyEyes said:
			
		

> This guy is persistent!  He just emailed me (he had my email address because I emailed him about having the fashion show pictures ready) and told me on watchtower.org is an article called "Is Jesus Christ God?".  He ends the email with "Keep searching for your answers!!  1 John 4:1"
> 
> *He won't let this thing go.*



Not to ruin your feeling of finally feeling comfortable with how you feel on the Jesus/God issue....
*But*, you prayed for God to help you find the truth right??  Well, suppose this guy's persistence....maybe it could be a *sign* from God??  Instead of quitting your study with that guy and decidning not to talk to him anymore, what if you just listened to what he had to say and continued to read your bible?  Perhaps you need to continue to search?? 

I don't see what it could hurt.  So, you don't agree on everything...that's fine.  But I don't think that listening to opposing viewpoints ever killed anyone.   As long as he was nice and "understanding", then maybe it wouldn't have been a bad thing?  

I'm just saying...this guy seemed nice, and he seemed like he wanted to share with you what he's learning.  And for him to take the time out of _his_ schedule in order to help teach someone else about the bible can be viewed as a commendable thing.   

But otherwise, I say...continue your search! That is very commendable that you are now trying to search out answers from the bible on your own instead of just believing what your pastors, or other people tell you.    I'm a firm believer that the truth will set you free.


----------



## Crystalicequeen123 (Mar 2, 2006)

newme2003 said:
			
		

> My coworker is a woman and no she did not tell me this.  I got this information from a couple of apologetics websites and sites dedicated to ex JWs.



Hmm...that's interesing. I'm actually kind of curious to know what your coworker would say about that information.  I think I would probably believe your coworker than what some website of ex JW's said.  But, haha...that's just me!   

That's almost like asking an ex-husband or an ex-wife about their EX!


----------



## EbonyEyes (Mar 2, 2006)

Crystalicequeen123 said:
			
		

> Not to ruin your feeling of finally feeling comfortable with how you feel on the Jesus/God issue....
> *But*, you prayed for God to help you find the truth right??  Well, suppose this guy's persistence....maybe it could be a *sign* from God??  Instead of quitting your study with that guy and decidning not to talk to him anymore, what if you just listened to what he had to say and continued to read your bible?  Perhaps you need to continue to search??
> 
> I don't see what it could hurt.  So, you don't agree on everything...that's fine.  But I don't think that listening to opposing viewpoints ever killed anyone.   As long as he was nice and "understanding", then maybe it wouldn't have been a bad thing?
> ...



I gave him an hour and a half to listen to his viewpoints and go through the Bible with him as he talked.  I did not interrupt him and really considered what he was saying.  Jesus shook things up with the truth.  Why can't JW shake things up with the truth? Then I went home and prayed about it and asked God to reveal to me through his Word and through his voice what the truth was.  I told God that I love him soooo much and if worshipping Jesus as God is wrong then he needs to let me know TODAY.  Because I want to worship God the way he deserves to be worshipped.  I studied for 3 hours.  I feel that God has already given me my answer.

When I told the JW my feelings, he kept me on the phone for another hour trying to convince me that I was wrong.

I told him that I appreciated him taking time out of his schedule to meet with me.  But it would no longer be appropriate for me to continue Bible study with him.

I feel that once God gives me the answer that I'm searching for, it's done.

I made that mistake of doubting God's voice with the Mormons.  I felt after meeting #2 that things about the Mormon faith were very wrong.  I prayed about it.  But I kept rationalizing that it was my fear of learning something new, even if it was true.  I even read their Book of Mormon.  Then God basically knocked me upside the head with the truth. I was ignoring the taps so He used more drastic measures.

I then told the Mormons that I grately appreciated them coming to meet with me.  They were so nice.  Then I told them that us meeting anymore would be inappropriate.

The problem is this guy is trying to convince me that he is right.  And he's been taught on how to convince me.

I gave him some scriptures and his answers to the questions were really interesting -- it almost sounded like it was what he was taught to say.  I went to this website later that talked about the JW faith and how they will respond to your questions.  I was shocked.  There were two scriptures that I mentioned and the website says "You will most likely get this answer...."  The wording of the answer was on the money!  

What it boils down to is - I'm not going to keep a door open for someone to convince me of something that's not true.


----------



## newme2003 (Mar 2, 2006)

Crystalicequeen123 said:
			
		

> Hmm...that's interesing. I'm actually kind of curious to know what your coworker would say about that information.  I think I would probably believe your coworker than what some website of ex JW's said.  But, haha...that's just me!
> 
> That's almost like asking an ex-husband or an ex-wife about their EX!



Are you a jehovah's witness?


----------



## Enchantmt (Mar 2, 2006)

Sweet C said:
			
		

> In the words of my man Flame, "Is that in the bible? that in the bible?".  We know that is not in the Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant canons.  So is it even in the JW bible
> 
> Jujuboo, girl where have you been?  We have missed you.




Actually the bible speaks of rewards and crowns for works on earth that are given in heaven, but it is not unto salvation.


----------



## Tamsin2005 (Mar 2, 2006)

Someone very dear to me was a JW. And like you, I did read and study their material. But even from what I read from their own literature just didn't make sense and didn't seem...right. I went so far as to attend a few of their meetings. I found Randy Watters ministry out of a broken heart for a man who had zeal and hunger for the Lord but was caught up in a belief system that was more concerned with works than God's grace. My friend was baptized as a JW, married a fellow JW. At the age of 37, this beautiful man died because his religion did not allow blood transfusions. He had sickle cell disease. 

So like many of you, my search for truth was sincere, and I allowed myself to ponder what JW's believe. I read their literature (they are not allowed to read yours, by the way), I attended their services and my conclusion was that I could not find any scriptural or historical support for their beliefs.

Our "job" as Christians is to rightly handle God's word and to know it, not in a combative way necessarily but to give answers for the hope within us. That's what people are looking for...why should I believe in your God.  It's hard not to want to "win" them for Christ.  The truth is unless they open their hearts and do as you've done which is to critically, analytically study God's word, pray and seek God they will not come to know Him.  So our prayers for your JW friend are not prayers made in self righteousness (which I know you're not doing) but for mercy and grace with a big dollop of thanksgiving!


----------



## EbonyEyes (Mar 3, 2006)

Tamsin2005 said:
			
		

> Someone very dear to me was a JW. And like you, I did read and study their material. But even from what I read from their own literature just didn't make sense and didn't seem...right. I went so far as to attend a few of their meetings. I found Randy Watters ministry out of a broken heart for a man who had zeal and hunger for the Lord but was caught up in a belief system that was more concerned with works than God's grace. My friend was baptized as a JW, married a fellow JW. At the age of 37, this beautiful man died because his religion did not allow blood transfusions. He had sickle cell disease.
> 
> So like many of you, my search for truth was sincere, and I allowed myself to ponder what JW's believe. I read their literature (they are not allowed to read yours, by the way), I attended their services and my conclusion was that I could not find any scriptural or historical support for their beliefs.
> 
> Our "job" as Christians is to rightly handle God's word and to know it, not in a combative way necessarily but to give answers for the hope within us. That's what people are looking for...why should I believe in your God.  It's hard not to want to "win" them for Christ.  The truth is unless they open their hearts and do as you've done which is to critically, analytically study God's word, pray and seek God they will not come to know Him.  So our prayers for your JW friend are not prayers made in self righteousness (which I know you're not doing) but for mercy and grace with a big dollop of thanksgiving!



Hi,

I'm really sorry to hear about your friend.  

I found a booklet that the JW guy gave me to read.  There's a page that says what JW believe and the scriptual reason.  Here are some for those who are interested:

-Christ is God's Son and is inferior to Him
-Christ died on a stake, not a cross
-Christ's human life was paid as a ransom for _obedient_ humans
-Christ was raised from the dead as an immortal spirit person
-Earth will never be destroyed or depopulated
-Hell is mankind's common grave (The JW guy said that they don't believe in Hell being a place of fire but the grave where you ceast to exist)
-Only a flock of 144,000 go to heaven and rule with Christ
-The 144,000 are born again as spiritual sons of God
-Prayers are to be directed only to Jehovah through Christ (Translation: No praying to Christ or the Holy Spirit)
-Images should not be used in worship (They don't believe in crosses being in churches during worship)
-A Christian ought to have no part in interfaith movements 
-Taking blood into body through mouth or veins violates God's laws
-Sabbath observance was given only to Israel and ended with Mosaic Law
-A clergy class and special titles are improper


----------



## Crystalicequeen123 (Mar 3, 2006)

newme2003 said:
			
		

> Are you a jehovah's witness?



Yes I am.    Yeah, the reason why I asked if you had personally asked what your *JW coworker* thought about that information was because many times I feel like people misunderstand a lot about our religion, or they go by "hear-say" or what they see/read in the media.  And I know that we (JW's) have not been necessarily portrayed in a "favorable" light in the media or even on the internet.  

There is a plethora of information on the internet, and that's why even when you're doing research papers, the teachers/professors would rather you use a source other than the internet (unless it's from a reputable database of course!).  You sort of see what I'm saying?  Because along with *GOOD* valid information online, there is also false information online (we all know this), and to me (this is just my _personal_ opinion) it would be *better* to go to the "horse's mouth" so-to-speak and look at what the JW official website says about the beliefs of JW's instead of what ex-JW members say.  I'm just saying...  at least if you go to the official website you have the TRUTH about what JW's believe, and not someone's "interpretation" of what JW's believe.    

But also, I just wanted to add too that I think a lot of people may get the wrong idea about us (JW's), and call us "a sect" and stuff that like, but if you  put yourself in our shoes, it can't possibly feel good to know that a lot of people think negative things about your religion.    And why out of a lot of religions out here, the JW religion is looked down upon so much, where as if you're catholic or baptist then that's "okay" I guess.  But oh well...   that's why it's a free country I guess.  You can choose what to believe and what not to believe I suppose.  Even Jesus had people who didn't agree with him, and ended up killing him, so I guess we shouldn't be too surprised.   

PS- *EbonyEyes*: I guess the only thing I can say is continue to have that thirst for bible knowledge.  That's an excellent thing.    Even though we may not agree on the same things at least you seemed to give that fellow JW guy a fair chance.  And if you got a sign from God, then I suppose you have your answer.  Btw, what sign did you get?  Just curious....


----------



## Sweet C (Mar 3, 2006)

Enchantmt said:
			
		

> Actually the bible speaks of rewards and crowns for works on earth that are given in heaven, but it is not unto salvation.


 
Yes, in Revelations, is speaks of the rewards given to the believer like the crowns, etc.  I am asking where in scripture does it say that you receive "heavenly points" that must be reported to your local church?


----------



## EbonyEyes (Mar 3, 2006)

Crystalicequeen123 said:
			
		

> PS- *EbonyEyes*: I guess the only thing I can say is continue to have that thirst for bible knowledge.  That's an excellent thing.    Even though we may not agree on the same things at least you seemed to give that fellow JW guy a fair chance.  And if you got a sign from God, then I suppose you have your answer.  Btw, what sign did you get?  Just curious....



You know...I was actually proud of myself for giving him a fair chance.  I even told him that I've heard such bad things about them but I wanted to hear from him what they believed.   Like I touched on earlier, there were folk that didn't like Jesus because he spoke things, true things, that bothered people and challenged what they thought to be true.

I didn't ask for a sign per se.  I asked God to reveal to me through his voice and his word what the truth was about Jesus Christ and that I wanted to know that night!  I'm sorry but if worshipping Jesus Christ as God is WRONG then I need to know like yesterday because I am not trying to get in trouble with my heavenly Father.  Wrongly worshipping someone other than my Father is a BIG DEAL!  But after reading scriptures in my bible and comparing it and contrasting it with the JW's NWT,  I received my answer.  The answer was as clear as the difference between the moon and the sun.  I made sure that I prayed that he speak to me what the meaning of the scriptures were and that I lean not unto my own understanding.

And reading about some of the beliefs of JWs in their own booklet sealed the deal for me.

We don't just disagree on a couple things, we disagree on a lot of things.  A lot of really important things.


----------



## Blossssom (Mar 4, 2006)

Sweet C said:
			
		

> Yes, in Revelations, is speaks of the rewards given to the believer like the crowns, etc.  I am asking where in scripture does it say that you receive "heavenly points" that must be reported to your local church?



Reported to your local church?  Like taxes or something?  

To answer the question, no, you can't be a Christian if you don't believe Jesus is the son of God.


----------



## zora (Mar 4, 2006)

EbonyEyes said:
			
		

> You know...I was actually proud of myself for giving him a fair chance.  I even told him that I've heard such bad things about them but I wanted to hear from him what they believed.   Like I touched on earlier, there were folk that didn't like Jesus because he spoke things, true things, that bothered people and challenged what they thought to be true.
> 
> I didn't ask for a sign per se.  I asked God to reveal to me through his voice and his word what the truth was about Jesus Christ and that I wanted to know that night!  I'm sorry but if worshipping Jesus Christ as God is WRONG then I need to know like yesterday because I am not trying to get in trouble with my heavenly Father.  Wrongly worshipping someone other than by Father is a BIG DEAL!  But after reading scriptures in my bible and comparing it and contrasting it with the JW's NWT,  I received my answer.  The answer was as clear as the difference between the moon and the sun.  I made sure that I prayed that he speak to me what the meaning of the scriptures were and that I lean not unto my own understanding.
> 
> ...


So what did you come up with?


----------



## Poohbear (Mar 4, 2006)

Crystalicequeen123 said:
			
		

> Not to ruin your feeling of finally feeling comfortable with how you feel on the Jesus/God issue....
> *But*, you prayed for God to help you find the truth right?? Well, suppose this guy's persistence....maybe it could be a *sign* from God?? *Instead of quitting your study with that guy and decidning not to talk to him anymore, what if you just listened to what he had to say and continued to read your bible?* Perhaps you need to continue to search??
> 
> *I don't see what it could hurt. So, you don't agree on everything...that's fine. But I don't think that listening to opposing viewpoints ever killed anyone.*  As long as he was nice and "understanding", then maybe it wouldn't have been a bad thing?
> ...


But the Bible also says this:

2 Timothy 2:14-26
An Unashamed Workman

 14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God *not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers. *

 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

 16 But *avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, *

 17 and *their talk will spread like gangrene*. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 

 18 men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some. 

 19 Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness." 

 20 Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. 

 21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work. 

 22 Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. 

 23 *But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels. *

*24 The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, *

* 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, *

* 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will. *


----------



## newme2003 (Mar 4, 2006)

Crystalice

There would be no point in asking my coworker.  I would not expect to get an accurate response.  There have been times that I have asked her about things relating to her beliefs and she has given me an elusive response.  For instance, there have been many times that she has told me to research the history of many of the Christian denominations. I’ll admit I have not.  It will not be “denominations” or “organizations” that God judges, it will be individuals.  What  I did do was check out the history of the JWs because it just made sense to me that if a person would tell me to check out the history of another religion that theirs would be spotless.  What I found on the contrary was horrendous.  One day when I asked her about the origins of JW she gave me a very weird response that had nothing to do with the question.  I just left it alone.  

Yes I understand that you can get a lot of misinformation/straight out lies on the internet but you can also get true information.  I like doing research and, therefore, have no problem getting my information from many different websites. The things that were not mentioned on other sites, I did not give attention to.  Many things that I have read have been the same.  

As for JWs being portrayed poorly in the media, I can honestly say that the only negative information I have heard about the JWs was on the news where there were some claiming to have been sexually abused as kids (silent lambs) – I am sure you have heard this.  I believe this.  I don’t believe that any religious organization is immune to this.  On the contrary, it is Christians who are mocked, mistreated, made to seem like buffoons in the media.  There are so many sitcoms, comedians, radio talk show hosts and just the average joes and josephines  who constantly portray us in a negative light.  But I won’t debate this issue. God said it would happen so who am I to whine about it. 

As for me going to the official JW site for my info, I don’t see the point.  Does Marilyn Manson think he is a bad guy?  Do Bobby and Whitney think they are drug addicts?  Okay, okay…that wasn’t right but you get my point. But to be fair, and honest, I have read a couple of articles from Awake and the Watchtower when my coworker used to give them to me.  And boy they sounded good and “logical” but I have also read the bible without the assistance of these publications and I know that some things said did not line up with my bible (I am sure they would with the NWT). 

As far as your comment about a lot of people calling you a “sect” – never heard it called sect but I know it is considered a cult because it fits in with the definition as such.  As a Christian myself, and as any other Christian can attest to, negative things are often said about us but we are to respond in love.  Hard but not impossible.  Also, I have interacted with other JWs besides the one I am currently working with and have not known any to be treated differently from other people. I will say that they have been very pleasant and outgoing people and have carried themselves in a way that commanded respect. 

Not that I think you would but….why don’t you read your bible or any other bible without the aide of the watchtower’s publications.  I think you will see things in a different light. 

I don’t know you but I want you to know that I love you.  And I will be praying for you – because my God gives me that freedom. Chances are that I will not be responding to anything else you say because as I stated before it would be futile. You say you are right, I say I am right – what would be the point.  

newme


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## EbonyEyes (Mar 4, 2006)

Blossssom said:
			
		

> Reported to your local church?  Like taxes or something?
> 
> To answer the question, no, you can't be a Christian if you don't believe Jesus is the son of God.



Hey girl, the thing some disagree on is whether Jesus was God himself, not just the Son of God.  The JWs and some on this forum believe that Jesus was the Son of God but NOT God.


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## Crystalicequeen123 (Mar 7, 2006)

newme2003 said:
			
		

> Crystalice
> For instance, there have been many times that she has told me to research the history of many of the Christian denominations. *I*


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## Crystalicequeen123 (Mar 7, 2006)

newme2003 said:
			
		

> Crystalice
> For instance, there have been many times that she has told me to research the history of many of the Christian denominations. *I’ll admit I have not. *  It will not be “denominations” or “organizations” that God judges, it will be individuals.  *What I did do was check out the history of the JWs * because it just made sense to me that if a person would tell me to check out the history of another religion that theirs would be spotless.  What I found on the contrary was horrendous.  One day when I asked her about the origins of JW she gave me a very weird response that had nothing to do with the question.  I just left it alone.



So, you checked out the history of JW's, but didn't check out the history of many other christian denominations?   



> *Yes I understand that you can get a lot of misinformation/straight out lies on the internet but you can also get true information.  *I like doing research and, therefore, have no problem getting my information from many different websites. The things that were not mentioned on other sites, I did not give attention to.  Many things that I have read have been the same.



Well, at least we agree on one thing.    Just be careful about the type of information you get on the internet, because although there is true information online, we all know that time and time again, any Joe-schmoe can make up a website full of garbage information.  Some websites and even programs on the net can also be designed to trick people.  We can see examples of that just by looking at internet scams and the like.  



> *As for me going to the official JW site for my info, I don’t see the point. * Does Marilyn Manson think he is a bad guy?  Do Bobby and Whitney think they are drug addicts?  Okay, okay…that wasn’t right but you get my point.



Hmmm...I think that's interesting that you don't see a point to that, but I can't convince anyone to do something they don't want to do.  I see the point you're trying to make about the celebrities and their websites, but all I was trying to say was that just with celebrity OFFICIAL websites, it would be a wise idea to check out the JW OFFICIAL website also.  Because, although fan sites of celebrities can be somewhat accurate, if you wanted *TRUE *up-to-date information about your favorite celebrity, wouldn't you periodically look at the official website of your favorite singer, artist, actor, actress, etc?   

And I don't really understand your analogy about Marilyn Manson or Bobby and Whitney and their websites, because I could probably say the same thing about websites dedicated to the Baptist, Jewish, Catholic, or Seven-Day Adventist religions.  My goal wasn't to tell you to visit the JW official website so that you could get this rose-colored view about the organization, but just so that 1) you could hear OFFICIALLY what the religion believes (and not just hear-say or interpretation), and 2) so that you could get a balanced view of the organization from the official website, and not just simply unofficial websites.   Again, why guess or go by hear-say, when you can read for it yourself on the official website?  Even if you don't think your co-worker would be able to give you a "valid" answer (which is understandable since there could be a lot of people who are studying or new to the organization), at least you would know that information on the official site would be accurate.  



> But to be fair, and honest, I have read a couple of articles from Awake and the Watchtower when my coworker used to give them to me.  And boy they sounded good and “logical” but I have also read the bible without the assistance of these publications and I know that some things said did not line up with my bible (I am sure they would with the NWT).



Well, the publications/articles are not supposed to take the place of the bible by any means, but are more like bible aids with a variety of topics that are on the minds of many today.  
For example:
-Why do we grow old and die?
-Why is crime so prevalent?
-What is God's purpose for the earth?
-Why does God permit suffering?
-Who is Jesus Christ? (this actually pertains to what this thread is about).

I mean there is a plethora of information in our articles, some not even dealing with serious bible topics.  In fact, in our Awake's and Watchtower's alone there is enough information to provide someone with a college level education.  I'm serious!   

May I also ask what information from the publications didn't line up with your bible?  If you don't want to list all of it on this thread, you can feel free to PM me.   



> As far as your comment about a lot of people calling you a “sect” – *never heard it called sect *...



Take a look at some of the original poster's posts.  I think she mentions something about JW's being a sect.  But this term sect/cult has been used to describe JW's before.   



> ...but I know it is considered a cult because it fits in with the definition as such.



Well, I'm sorry you/other people feel that way.    Again, I can't change someone's opinion about us, but I don't feel that JW's are a cult.  Not in the least!    If I did, or felt in any way that JW's were a cult I would not be a JW.  Plain and simple.  Yet again, you never hear of Baptists being a "cult", or catholics being a "cult", etc....   Why is that?  Ever wondered why?  



> As a Christian myself, and as any other Christian can attest to, negative things are often said about us but we are to respond in love.



Exactly!     That is the correct attitude.  



> Also, I have interacted with other JWs besides the one I am currently working with and have not known any to be treated differently from other people.



Well, maybe you should look up some more history on JW's.   For example, some people are surprised to know that JW's were also thrown into concentration camps along with the Jews during the Nazi regime. 



> I will say that they have been very pleasant and outgoing people and have carried themselves in a way that commanded respect.



That's always great to hear!     



> Not that I think you would but….why don’t you read your bible or any other bible without the aide of the watchtower’s publications.  I think you will see things in a different light.



I do!   In fact we are encouraged to read our bible's every single day.  Like I said before, nothing can take the place of the bible.  The publications are just inspired from the bible.  It doesn't take the place of the bible.  



> I don’t know you but I want you to know that I love you.  And I will be praying for you – because my God gives me that freedom. Chances are that I will not be responding to anything else you say because as I stated before it would be futile. You say you are right, I say I am right – what would be the point.
> 
> newme



Well, thank you for your open ear. You seem like an open-minded person.   I just hope I was able to help clear up some information, since there is a lot of erroneous information out there.


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## Crystalicequeen123 (Mar 7, 2006)

Sweet C said:
			
		

> Yes, in Revelations, is speaks of the rewards given to the believer like the crowns, etc.  I am asking where in scripture does it say that you receive "heavenly points" that must be reported to your local church?



Well, let me just add one last thing.  This business about "heavenly points" is pure rubbish.  I don't even know where someone got this information from!   

As many of you know, JW's go out preaching (like Jesus commanded in the bible), and every month we report our progress to the congregation.  This is SIMPLY for records information, and nothing more!  It let's us know how our work is doing around the world.  It is a source of encouragement to see how our brothers and sisters say in Greece, Cameroon, France, South America are doing and the progress that they are making!  It really is encouraging!   

It has nothing to do with heaven or rights or privleges or your future or whatever that website said.    I'm telling you....just out right LIES on the internet!


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## Sweet C (Mar 7, 2006)

Thanks for that clarification CQ123, cause that was not making any sense to me!


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## EbonyEyes (Mar 10, 2006)

Well ladies,

This guy has not given up as I suspected he wouldn't.  I was warned that some JWs are persistent and don't understand the words "I don't agree with you.  So let's just end this."  I wrote him a week ago that my belief on Jesus has not changed.  It was a quick response.

He writes me back this email today trying to convince me that I'm wrong for worshipping Jesus as God.  He has the NERVE to say that he's not trying to prove me wrong -- the scriptures will do so!!!!  But the funny thing was, the scripture he mentioned proved my point!  It was hilarious. He says that it's good that I continue to search through the scriptures.

I did write him back.  And I said what I had to say.  I used the same scriptures that he was trying to use to disprove my belief to support it.  I told him that it's not only important to search in the scriptures but to also PRAY to God that he helps you understand what you are reading.  I then ended my email by saying that I've been searching the scriptures with an open mind and actually entertained the idea that he just might be right.  However, he's searching the scriptures to try to prove to me that HE is right.  I challenged him to search the scriptures with an open mind like I did for him.

If he writes back with more convincing of why Jesus isn't God...Hmm...Unfortunately, I can't block email with my email account.  I'm going to have to pray on the best way to let this guy know that "Look, We're not going to agree on this so how about we stop going back and forth on this?" without being cruel.

I can say this experience has taught me that you have to stay in the word AND stay in prayer with God!!  Because someone can come up to you using the Word of God to tell you something that is totally untrue.


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 17, 2006)

EbonyEyes said:
			
		

> Well ladies,
> 
> This guy has not given up as I suspected he wouldn't. I was warned that some JWs are persistent and don't understand the words "I don't agree with you. So let's just end this." I wrote him a week ago that my belief on Jesus has not changed. It was a quick response.
> 
> ...


 
I've read everyone's responses and it's quite interesting.  However, I won't expound on any of it because sometimes it can make things worse.  But, my advise to you is "DON'T ANSWER HIS EMAILS" any longer.  Let him write, but don't respond.  It's that simple.  Sometimes as believers, we want so much for people to know the truth and be saved. It's in us...it's who we are.  However, some people won't get it.  I have been talking to people (evangelizing, ministering) for 18 years.  It's so interesting to hear what people believe and how they respond to your questions. And believe me, I've talked to many people who believe in many things.

I find that there are people who will listen, and then there will be people who won't.  That's ok.  They did it when Jesus walked the earth, and they will do it to you and me.  I love what I do and I pray everyday that the people that I come into contact with will give their lives to Jesus Christ.  Sometimes, its rough, but overall, it's a blessing!  Remember this one thing: _We plant, someone else will water, but it is God who gives the increase!_

You are right, stay in prayer with God!  Always know who YOU are in Christ Jesus and remain faithful to Him.  He is always with you, never leaving or forsaking you.  His love for you is all you need to know that He is God!

Praying that you will continue to study to show yourself approved unto God, rightly dividing the Word of Truth!

Blessings to you!


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## mkh_77 (Apr 16, 2006)

EbonyEyes said:
			
		

> . . . Jesus was a great man, a sinless man.  He was the son of God but he was NOT God!
> 
> Traditional Christianity teaches that Jesus was not only a man but was also God.  So can someone be a Christian if they do not believe that Jesus was God as well?
> 
> Ladies, any other scriptures you can find that support Jesus being God would be greatly appreciated!



"Do not cling to me," said Jesus, "for I have not yet ascended to the Father.  But go to my brothers, and tell them that I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."  John 20:17

I still believe that Jesus, in his human form, was a manifestation of God on Earth, but he was not God while he walked the Earth; he was just a man as evidenced by the verse above where he makes a distinction between himself and God.

So, yes, someone who doesn't believe that Jesus was God can be a Christian.


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## michc (Apr 22, 2006)

Interesting responses. As one of the earlier posters said the word Christian has 'Christ' right there in it - so how can you claim to follow Him and not believe what He says (i.e that He is God - "I and the Father  are one" - can't get much clearer than that).

Remember - just because you believe something is right doesn't change the fact that in God's eyes you are wrong.

The long and short of it is no, you CAN NOT be a Christian and believe that Christ is not God.


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## napgurl (Apr 22, 2006)

Trinity God in three different states like water in three different states

water is water but water can be ice and water can be steam.


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