# Keeping the Old Testament laws?



## Amour (Aug 5, 2013)

Anyone keep the Old Testament laws such as refraining from eating ports, shellfish, not working on the sabbath?

Why do you choose or choose not to do so? Is it a cop out to not follow the OT laws?


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## Galadriel (Aug 5, 2013)

Amour said:


> Anyone keep the Old Testament laws such as refraining from eating ports, shellfish, not working on the sabbath?
> 
> Why do you choose or choose not to do so? Is it a cop out to not follow the OT laws?



I don't follow the dietary or ritual laws that have been dispensed with since Christ instituted the New Covenant, however I do follow the eternal moral law God set forth in the Decalogue (Ten Commandments). I refrain from unnecessary work on Sunday (the Lord's Day) and go to Church, and read Scripture and devotional books.


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## MrsHaseeb (Aug 5, 2013)

I have some things to share but I'm on my phone. Ill respond when I get to a computer.


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## CoilyFields (Aug 5, 2013)

Yeah, the ten commandments...not the dietary or ritual laws. Though I think its important to understand if there was a principle behind that law that we should still uphold today in those ritual/dietary laws.

Most of those laws were set up for the preservation of Gods chosen people and to set them apart from the heathen nations around them.


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## Shimmie (Aug 5, 2013)

The Ten Commandments.

The Dietary Laws, we follow for fasting or for doing a cleanse, outside of that , my family and I eat vegetarian because we enjoy fruits and vegetables and the health benefits (not because of OT laws).  Fish and poultry are added at random.


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## blazingthru (Aug 5, 2013)

Yes all of the Laws of the Old Testament that were put inside of the ark, I still follow. 

But I had to seriously sit down and study it, not only did I study it from the bible I studied it on the outside, for instance, I researched what each animal that we are forbidden to eat, eats.  After doing that research it was easy as pie to walk away.  However, I learned about the dietary Laws in 2009.  I had given up Pork and all Seafood 6 years before.  But  I dranked wine and I had coffee and other things that are dangerous to my health. I have walked away from all of it in 2009.

We keep the Sabbath, its not easy keeping the Sabbath around my family but for us we keep it. My family does not. Will not even listen or discuss it.  Most of my friends and other family members will not even consider keeping it.   Well what can they say when God ask. its the fourth commandment it is holy. We can't just make up any day and say its holy.  Because that is the day that God said is holy that is the day that represents him. It is his sign. 

I use to get mad about it but I don't anymore. It was not easy for me to accept at first but I kept searching it out there was a burning in my heart. It kept me searching and searching and asking the hard questions and I received every single answer to every single question ever said about the Sabbath or the fourth commandment.  I accept it, what I get mad about is people not searching it out for themselves, with a sincere heart. 

But the fact of the matter is God commands us to obey him. Making excuses to not obey him well, there is a reward and a punishment.   

The churches are teaching that we are not under the Law but under Grace, which means we are not under an obligation to obey God's Law.  Really?  

Matthew 5:17
Christ Fulfills the Law

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.  (make full)

*Matthew 3:13-17*

John Baptizes Jesus

13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. 14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?”

15 But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him.


17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law* till all is fulfilled*. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 7:21
New King James Version (NKJV)
I Never Knew You

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who* does the will of My Father* in heaven.

Psalm 40:8
New King James Version (NKJV)
8 I delight to do Your will, O my God,
And Your law is within my heart.”

If your not willing to do the will of God, you can't come to the kingdom.  Why? you bring rebellion, and God has said sin will never rise again.


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## Shimmie (Aug 5, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> Yes all of the Laws of the Old Testament that were put inside of the ark, I still follow.
> 
> But I had to seriously sit down and study it, not only did I study it from the bible I studied it on the outside, for instance, I researched what each animal that we are forbidden to eat, eats.  After doing that research it was easy as pie to walk away.  However, I learned about the dietary Laws in 2009.  I had given up Pork and all Seafood 6 years before.  But  I dranked wine and I had coffee and other things that are dangerous to my health. I have walked away from all of it in 2009.
> 
> ...



Love this....


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## Kurlee (Aug 5, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> Yes all of the Laws of the Old Testament that were put inside of the ark, I still follow.
> 
> But I had to seriously sit down and study it, not only did I study it from the bible I studied it on the outside, for instance, I researched what each animal that we are forbidden to eat, eats.  After doing that research it was easy as pie to walk away.  However, I learned about the dietary Laws in 2009.  I had given up Pork and all Seafood 6 years before.  But  I dranked wine and I had coffee and other things that are dangerous to my health. I have walked away from all of it in 2009.
> 
> ...



so when you say Sabbath, is it Saturday or Sunday?


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## Blackpearl1993 (Aug 5, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> Yes all of the Laws of the Old Testament that were put inside of the ark, I still follow.
> 
> But I had to seriously sit down and study it, not only did I study it from the bible I studied it on the outside, for instance, I researched what each animal that we are forbidden to eat, eats.  After doing that research it was easy as pie to walk away.  However, I learned about the dietary Laws in 2009.  I had given up Pork and all Seafood 6 years before.  But  I dranked wine and I had coffee and other things that are dangerous to my health. I have walked away from all of it in 2009.
> 
> ...


 

I must confess that I have to constantly ask God to help me observe the Sabbath. We do attend church as a family, and I try to remember to prepare as much as I can the night before (food, clothes, items for the children/hubby for the following week). Often I feel like I fall short/forget something and then I end up having to do certain things around the house for basic functioning during the day. I am a work in progress! We do choose not to attend other types of events on Sundays that we do not consider to be restful.


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## JaneBond007 (Aug 5, 2013)

I saw something recently from a catholic reverend who had written about the Sunday Sabbath from a few years ago and in it he admonished people who work on Sunday.  What I most remember about the article was that Jesus still wants the Sabbath observed and that it is the catholic's obligation and that to fail to observe it was playing with one's salvation.  Eye-opening...but in another way for me.


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## Shimmie (Aug 5, 2013)

Blackpearl1993 said:


> I must confess that I have to constantly ask God to help me observe the Sabbath. We do attend church as a family, and I try to remember to prepare as much as I can the night before (food, clothes, items for the children/hubby for the following week). Often I feel like I fall short/forget something and then I end up having to do certain things around the house for basic functioning during the day. I am a work in progress! We do choose not to attend other types of events on Sundays that we do not consider to be restful.



I'm 'there' as well.   

One thing is certain, God knows you as a faithful Wife, Mother and His Daughter whose heart is drawn towards Him no matter what.


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## southerncharm (Aug 6, 2013)

Kurlee said:


> so when you say Sabbath, is it Saturday or Sunday?


 
well it's simple, just stand there & really look at your calendar, if you have to just stare at it for a few minutes(lol).

start counting at the first day, that's sunday, okay why do we jump from sunday to Monday as the first day of the week, it's like we skip over sunday & then jump to Monday & start counting, & then jump back to sunday.   


there, you have your answer count straight from sun-sat don't skip over sunday & start at monday, you'll get your Sabbath - on Saturday.


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## Kurlee (Aug 6, 2013)

southerncharm said:


> well it's simple, just stand there & really look at your calendar, if you have to just stare at it for a few minutes(lol).
> 
> start counting at the first day, that's sunday, okay why do we jump from sunday to Monday as the first day of the week, it's like we skip over sunday & then jump to Monday & start counting, & then jump back to sunday.
> 
> ...



I was asking because there seems to be some conflict in Christianity, where some keep Sunday and others keep Saturday.


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## blazingthru (Aug 6, 2013)

Kurlee said:


> so when you say Sabbath, is it Saturday or Sunday?



So, so, so sorry, I should have been very clear.  The Sabbath is Saturday, it can never ever be on Sunday. Because then it would not be God's holy day. 

Sure people get angry and upset about it but Sunday is not a holy day and no matter how much folks want it to be it will never be.  If you study out the Sabbath you will see why its very important that you worship on that day (Saturday) you can worship any day, but the Holy day is Sabbath, actually Friday sunset to Saturday sunset. 

The Sabbath is blessed by God it is his seal.  Period whether folks want to accept it or not. It is his seal. Sunday just won't do. Now my suggestion is those who really believe Sunday is a holy day need to sit and study hard the Sabbath.  God has a blessing for you just from searching out the scriptures which he desires of you. Which is why the bible is not an easy read. its design for research and digging. You want the treasure you have to dig hard for it. 

www.sabbathtruth.com

Yes I am a Seventh Day Adventist, but  I searched the scriptures and I studied this out way before I decided to become an Adventist. That study lead me to them, not the other way around.  What I learned from the SDA was that it enhanced my own studies, I ended up with more questions but each and every single question I had, the bible had an answer for it.  But you know I joined this board in 2005, I did not convert until 2009 


One very important thing. Satan counterfeits everything that God has said which makes sense, he rebelled against God did he not.  Well I know that if I did not want to completely obey my parents I looked for a loophole in what they say. Well Satan changes the Law to make it easier for folks to sin. point blank period. 

In Exodus 20:8  We see that not only did God himself write the Laws, he spoke them.  He blessed the Seventh Day and Hallowed it.  He also said remember because folks forgot. 

*Exodus 20 (New King James Version)*
New King James Version (NKJV)
The Ten Commandments

20 And God spoke all these words, saying:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
8 “*Remember the Sabbath *day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 *For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.*
12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
13 “You shall not murder.
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

18 Now all the people witnessed the thunderings, the lightning flashes, the sound of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood afar off. 19 Then they said to Moses, “You speak with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die.”   

We worship on the Sabbath because it points to the one and true and only God. He says he made heaven and earth, no other God can make claim to it yet we have so many other "Gods" that people worship.  When we worship on the true Sabbath we are saying that we believe that you are the one and true God. So we become eligible to receive the seal of God.


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## MrsHaseeb (Aug 6, 2013)

Somehow I knew this would turn into something about the Sabbath day and when is the correct Sabbath. That's why I refrained from coming back to comment at first... People, Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the law. Get in Christ and be Spirit led. Keeping a Sabbath and 10 commandments will not take you to heaven. You must be born again.  Law keeping doesn't make one born again. Sabbath worship doctrine is something to simply take the focus off Jesus Christ and put it back on law. This is what Paul was fighting against in the entire new testament. What born again believer needs 10 commandments to tell them not to lie, steal, or commit adultery? Not one! Because when you receive the Holy Spirit God's law is in your heart and you will obey him because you're led if his Spirit. God's seal is NOT the Sabbath. God's seal the Holy Spirit, spirit filled believers, living righteous in Christ Jesus. Anyone who desires to keep laws needs one thing... To be born again of the Spirit of God and become the righteousness of God IN Christ Jesus. That will alleviate the need for a law. The law is made for people who are not born again because they don't have the nature of God, not for righteous people.

1 Timothy 1:8-10 KJV
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; [9] Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, [10] For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;


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## Kurlee (Aug 6, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> *Somehow I knew this would turn into something about the Sabbath day and when is the correct Sabbath. That's why I refrained from coming back to comment at first...* People, Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the law. Get in Christ and be Spirit led. Keeping a Sabbath and 10 commandments will not take you to heaven. You must be born again.  Law keeping doesn't make one born again. Sabbath worship doctrine is something to simply take the focus off Jesus Christ and put it back on law. This is what Paul was fighting against in the entire new testament. What born again believer needs 10 commandments to tell them not to lie, steal, or commit adultery? Not one! Because when you receive the Holy Spirit God's law is in your heart and you will obey him because you're led if his Spirit. God's seal is NOT the Sabbath. God's seal the Holy Spirit, spirit filled believers, living righteous in Christ Jesus. Anyone who desires to keep laws needs one thing... To be born again of the Spirit of God and become the righteousness of God IN Christ Jesus. That will alleviate the need for a law. The law is made for people who are not born again because they don't have the nature of God, not for righteous people.
> 
> 1 Timothy 1:8-10 KJV
> But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; [9] Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, [10] For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;



This is a very interesting perspective. You should not be reluctant to discuss this conflict, because it is very real and it may help others (contributors and lurkers). To be honest, all of the other commandments are pretty cut and dry.  That one seems to be a point of contention for people.  So i'm assuming that you do not adhere to old testament laws?


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## MrsHaseeb (Aug 6, 2013)

blazingthru, I’m sorry but your entire post incorrect according to scripture. First off, the true Sabbath absolutely is Saturday, not Sunday. But that’s totally irrelevant. New Testament believers are never commanded to keep a Sabbath though there is absolutely nothing wrong with observing the Sabbath if a person chooses to do so. Christ didn’t even keep the Sabbath correctly according the Pharisees. New Testament believers worship in Spirit and truth. That's why the idea of a holy day for new testament believers makes no sense. The Sabbath is not God’s seal. You can’t find that anywhere in the New Testament at all.

 Colossians 2 16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

 The Sabbath was not even the Old Testament seal, circumcision was.

 Romans 4 9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised. 

According to the above verses, circumcision was the seal of the Old Testament which becomes a circumcision of the heart of the believer in the New Testament and God’s law is written in the heart by the Spirit.

 Romans 2 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God. 

Rejection of a Christian being under law saying they need to keep a Sabbath has nothing to do with rejecting truth because Christ Jesus is truth. Anybody trying to keep the 10 commandments is under a curse because you are trying to keep the law rather than becoming the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus by the Holy Spirit. Galatians outlines this perfectly. Quote all the old testament you want about the Sabbath, Paul makes it plain in Colossians that the Sabbath and the entire law was just a shadow of what was to come, which was Christ. It’s outright denial of Christ to try and go back to keeping 10 commandments rather than abiding by the law of the Spirit which is in the heart of real believers. Thinking that keeping a Sabbath is God’s seal is deception, plain and simple. It’s denial of the Holy Spirit. 

Ephesians 1 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who* is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. 

Sabbath worship does not point to the true and living God, righteousness by the Holy Spirit does. 

2 Timothy 2 19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ[c] depart from iniquity.” 

The Sabbath was made for man, to rest and reflect on God. Rest is now spiritual and in Jesus Christ. Turning Sabbath worship into a denomination (I like to call them” Demon”inations) is heresy. Let’s get a real picture of what should be told to New Testament believers. 

Acts 15 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. [g] If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. 

When the Jews tried to place laws on the Gentile believers this is what they were told by Peter. The main thing that was said here is to stay away from idolatry. It’s amazing how little is said. Peter also says trying to force Gentile believers to keep the law is putting a yoke on them... Law puts you in bondage. If that same situation occurred today, you’d get a myriad of answers that have nothing to do with a person’s salvation such as church sacraments, Sabbaths, church tradition and a bunch of stuff that doesn’t matter. Law takes us away from the simplicity in Christ. Anybody under the law… get to Jesus and be led of the Spirit. 

Galatians 3 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

Galatians 4 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the[d] two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 

Galatians 5 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 

I can assure everyone, when the fiery wrath of God starts falling in this place for all the abominations going on, Christ will not be looking for Sabbath keepers. He will be looking for those sealed with His Spirit.

In conclusion, the old testament law is holy. But it must be understood that being Spirit led, the standards are much higher than the law. This is already long but I may come back and comment.*


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## MrsHaseeb (Aug 6, 2013)

Kurlee said:


> This is a very interesting perspective. You should not be reluctant to discuss this conflict, because it is very real and it may help others (contributors and lurkers). To be honest, all of the other commandments are pretty cut and dry.  That one seems to be a point of contention for people.  So i'm assuming that you do not adhere to old testament laws?



No. I do not follow old testament law. I follow the law if the Spirit. I am born again and I do not need to be told not to lie, steal, bear false witness or worship false gods. The Holy Spirit changes a persons character and nature and when we submit to Him, he transforms us. Keeping the law is for people trying to establish their own righteousness.

Romans 10:1-5 KJV
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. [2] For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. [3] For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. [4] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. [5] For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

I may come back later with more info.


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## Shimmie (Aug 6, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> blazingthru, I’m sorry but your entire post incorrect according to scripture. First off, the true Sabbath absolutely is Saturday, not Sunday. But that’s totally irrelevant. New Testament believers are never commanded to keep a Sabbath though there is absolutely nothing wrong with observing the Sabbath if a person chooses to do so. Christ didn’t even keep the Sabbath correctly according the Pharisees. New Testament believers worship in Spirit and truth. That's why the idea of a holy day for new testament believers makes no sense. The Sabbath is not God’s seal. You can’t find that anywhere in the New Testament at all.
> 
> Colossians 2 16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
> 
> ...


*

MrsHaseeb and blazingthru ...

The two of you give me 'life'.   Here's why.

You do not take God's Grace for granted.   You are both no-nonsense.  You speak your heart and make NO excuses for it.  

As I said above, you give me life.   And I love both of you.   Thank you for just 'standing' for the God we serve.   I am so tired of the compromisers, the middle ground, the 'evolved' or the evolving or as Elijah said, those who 'halt' between two opinions.  

Here' the thing.   You don't play.  Neither of you.  You don't play.  You seriously take God serious and you do not hold back on your faith.  

The two of you have one stand and that's God.  I love it and again, I love both of you.  

Continue with your discussion.  I'm listening and again, I thank you, both. 

Love,

Shimmie *


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## Nice & Wavy (Aug 6, 2013)

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## MrsHaseeb (Aug 6, 2013)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Girl, you are going to be beating a dead horse.
> 
> When people have a train of thinking such as this, its unhealthy to continue on with trying to teach them.  If the Holy Spirit hasn't been able to do it, none of us can.  When people reject the Word of God in its entirety, its like arguing with someone who is in solitary confinement.
> 
> ...



Lol. I agree. I post for the babes in Christ who may be mislead by that stuff. I have presented the truth, that's all I can do.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Aug 6, 2013)

MrsHaseeb I was 'waiting for it' too...I agree with Nice & Wavy.


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## Nice & Wavy (Aug 6, 2013)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> @MrsHaseeb I was 'waiting for it' too...I agree with Nice & Wavy.


Hi sweetie   How are you doing?


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## Nice & Wavy (Aug 6, 2013)

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## Kurlee (Aug 6, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> No. I do not follow old testament law. I follow the law if the Spirit. I am born again and I do not need to be told not to lie, steal, bear false witness or worship false gods. The Holy Spirit changes a persons character and nature and when we submit to Him, he transforms us. Keeping the law is for people trying to establish their own righteousness.
> 
> Romans 10:1-5 KJV
> Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. [2] For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. [3] For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. [4] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. [5] For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
> ...


thanks


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Aug 6, 2013)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Hi sweetie  How are you doing?


 

Hi Dear Sis,

All is well, I pray the same for you and your family...happy that you popped in to say hi, missed you much in these parts.


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## Nice & Wavy (Aug 6, 2013)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> Hi Dear Sis,
> 
> All is well, I pray the same for you and your family...happy that you popped in to say hi, missed you much in these parts.


Wonderful!  I am well...very busy this Summer teaching a wonderful class to some great people!

I missed you too


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## JaneBond007 (Aug 6, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> So, so, so sorry, I should have been very clear.  The Sabbath is Saturday, it can never ever be on Sunday. Because then it would not be God's holy day.
> 
> Sure people get angry and upset about it but Sunday is not a holy day and no matter how much folks want it to be it will never be.  If you study out the Sabbath you will see why its very important that you worship on that day (Saturday) you can worship any day, but the Holy day is Sabbath, actually Friday sunset to Saturday sunset.
> 
> The Sabbath is blessed by God it is his seal.  Period whether folks want to accept it or not. It is his seal. Sunday just won't do. Now my suggestion is those who really believe Sunday is a holy day need to sit and study hard the Sabbath.



I can comprehend you, very much.  To Jews, Saturday is the eternal Sabbath.  However, to reflect the resurrection of Jesus, christians came to the conclusion through earlier church council (and to somewhat alienate themselves from traditional Jews (something I don't quite agree with in its entirety) that it is to be Sunday.  I know why they did it.  The aftermath of that decision has produced some harshness against Jews throughout the centuries, and against christians as well.  But looking at Jesus, the pure decision for it is to honor the day He resurrected.  That, for christians, is the most honorable thing.  SDA follow the Noachide laws to some extent, so I can see how they would only have the Shabbos Saturday.  

I think there needs to be gentleness in looking at this and much understanding for why and how it came about.  If you conclude that Sunday cannot ever be holy, then one would also have to conclude, according to rabbinic Jewish law that Jesus isn't the Messiah and that non-Jews should not observe Shabbos period.  In fairness, that argument could stand.  But being that SDA believe He is the Messiah and share with other believers across all denominations, there should be gentleness and understanding.


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## Galadriel (Aug 7, 2013)

Scriptures such as Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10 indicate that, even during New Testament times, the Sabbath is no longer binding and that Christians are to worship on the Lord’s day, Sunday, instead. 

The early Church Fathers compared the observance of the Sabbath to the observance of the rite of circumcision, and from that they demonstrated that if the apostles abolished circumcision (Gal. 5:1-6), so also the observance of the Sabbath must have been abolished. The following quotations show that the first Christians understood this principle and gathered for worship on Sunday. 


The Didache

"But every Lord’s day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]). 


The Letter of Barnabas

"We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead" (Letter of Barnabas 15:6–8 [A.D. 74]). 


Ignatius of Antioch

"[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death" (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]). 


Justin Martyr

"[W]e too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined [on] you—namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your heart. . . . [H]ow is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us—I speak of fleshly circumcision and Sabbaths and feasts? . . . God enjoined you to keep the Sabbath, and imposed on you other precepts for a sign, as I have already said, on account of your unrighteousness and that of your fathers . . ." (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 18, 21 [A.D. 155]). 

"But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead" (First Apology 67 [A.D. 155]). 


Tertullian

"[L]et him who contends that the Sabbath is still to be observed as a balm of salvation, and circumcision on the eighth day . . . teach us that, for the time past, righteous men kept the Sabbath or practiced circumcision, and were thus rendered ‘friends of God.’ For if circumcision purges a man, since God made Adam uncircumcised, why did he not circumcise him, even after his sinning, if circumcision purges? . . . Therefore, since God originated Adam uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, consequently his offspring also, Abel, offering him sacrifices, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, was by him [God] commended [Gen. 4:1–7, Heb. 11:4]. . . . Noah also, uncircumcised—yes, and unobservant of the Sabbath—God freed from the deluge. For Enoch too, most righteous man, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, he translated from this world, who did not first taste death in order that, being a candidate for eternal life, he might show us that we also may, without the burden of the law of Moses, please God" (An Answer to the Jews 2 [A.D. 203]). 


The Didascalia

"The apostles further appointed: On the first day of the week let there be service, and the reading of the holy scriptures, and the oblation [sacrifice of the Mass], because on the first day of the week [i.e., Sunday] our Lord rose from the place of the dead, and on the first day of the week he arose upon the world, and on the first day of the week he ascended up to heaven, and on the first day of the week he will appear at last with the angels of heaven" (Didascalia 2 [A.D. 225]). 


Origen

"Hence it is not possible that the [day of] rest after the Sabbath should have come into existence from the seventh [day] of our God. On the contrary, it is our Savior who, after the pattern of his own rest, caused us to be made in the likeness of his death, and hence also of his resurrection" (Commentary on John 2:28 [A.D. 229]). 


Victorinus

"The sixth day [Friday] is called parasceve, that is to say, the preparation of the kingdom. . . . On this day also, on account of the passion of the Lord Jesus Christ, we make either a station to God or a fast. On the seventh day he rested from all his works, and blessed it, and sanctified it. On the former day we are accustomed to fast rigorously, that on the Lord’s day we may go forth to our bread with giving of thanks. And let the parasceve become a rigorous fast, lest we should appear to observe any Sabbath with the Jews . . . which Sabbath he [Christ] in his body abolished" (The Creation of the World [A.D. 300]).


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## MrsHaseeb (Aug 7, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> Scriptures such as Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10 indicate that, even during New Testament times, the Sabbath is no longer binding and that Christians are to worship on the Lord’s day, Sunday, instead.
> 
> The early Church Fathers compared the observance of the Sabbath to the observance of the rite of circumcision, and from that they demonstrated that if the apostles abolished circumcision (Gal. 5:1-6), so also the observance of the Sabbath must have been abolished. The following quotations show that the first Christians understood this principle and gathered for worship on Sunday.
> 
> ...



Some of what you posted only applies to Catholics and everyone on here is not Catholic. Please remember that before posting those things. Also, the apostles did not abolish circumcision, Jesus did when he came to fulfil the law. The Old Testament circumcision became a circumcision of the heart which had nothing to do with the apostles and everything to do with Jesus Christ. They simply understood it because they were spiritually minded. The apostles had no authority to change the Sabbath and quite frankly, it was pointless to do so. The early believers met everyday many times and due to persecution and many of them moving frequently I don't believe anybody got together among them and came up with some official worship day. Worship is in Spirit and in truth. These writings came much later and there was already apostasy by that time.


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## blazingthru (Aug 7, 2013)

MrsHaseeb   you posted a lot and it will take me a moment to go through all of it. 
But I want to say this. Yes its true,  I believe strongly in what I posted because I took the time to study it out. What ever someone else post, I consider and go back and look it up to make sure my understanding is correct, I do not dismiss it. I believe as Christians we should always try to build one another up even if we do not agree, Fact is fact that is true but I try not to insult or make fun of anyone, I also would never encourage it.  For us to be Christians and continuously insult one another is so amazing to me, for that was the past life, that was the old unchristian way to do things. I read these post from folks that say I would never go back in the Christian forum, because folks are nasty and how can Christian and nasty go hand and hand. I am not accusing you. I enjoy reading your post very much, I don't agree with everything from a Christian point of view, but I don't see a need to comment on everything either.  Whenever I post its not going to change. I stand by what I am saying however, I do have an open mind. I can't dismiss everyone  I have to make sure of my own understanding. For my salvation and others is on the line so I would never post just to get people to agree with me.  I do not have a heaven or a hell. I would never wilingly want to lead anyone astride. Not ever. But I will respond to your post. because as I stated above. I have only been a real and true Christian for five years. I have already read the stuff you posted those were my very same arguments.  The question is why? what was I fighting?


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## Amour (Aug 7, 2013)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Girl, you are going to be beating a dead horse.
> 
> When people have a train of thinking such as this, its unhealthy to continue on with trying to teach them.  If the Holy Spirit hasn't been able to do it, none of us can.  When people reject the Word of God in its entirety, its like arguing with someone who is in solitary confinement.
> 
> ...



I respectfully disagree, this is invaluable for those in need of fellowship. I know it's not just me that is thanking God for her wisdom shared.


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## Nice & Wavy (Aug 7, 2013)

Amour said:


> I respectfully disagree, this is invaluable for those in need of fellowship. I know it's not just me that is thanking God for her wisdom shared.


That's fine dear.  Have a nice day!


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## Galadriel (Aug 7, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> Some of what you posted only applies to Catholics and everyone on here is not Catholic.



The quotes that I provided showed how the earliest Christians viewed Sabbath and Sunday worship. It's not a Catholic vs. Protestant thing. Everyone here knows I'm Catholic, and not everything I post will be "generic Christian," but will come from my understandings, studies, etc. as a Catholic. People can take what they want from it or agree with whatever aspects they wish to.

Most Protestants do believe in Sunday worship (the Lord's Day) as opposed to keeping a Saturday Sabbath.




MrsHaseeb said:


> Please remember that before posting those things. Also, the apostles did not abolish circumcision, Jesus did when he came to fulfil the law. The Old Testament circumcision became a circumcision of the heart which had nothing to do with the apostles and everything to do with Jesus Christ.



The Apostles carried out Christ's will and His mission. The Apostles also had the authority to guide and teach the Church. In the New Testament, an argument had arisen that Gentile converts should first be circumcised and then be baptized--Paul the Apostle said only baptism is necessary, because they were initiates into the New Covenant, not the Old.



MrsHaseeb said:


> They simply understood it because they were spiritually minded. The apostles had no authority to change the Sabbath and quite frankly, it was pointless to do so.



1) The Apostles no longer required or enforced circumcision 
2) The Apostles worshipped on the Lord's Day because it was the day of Christ's resurrection
3) The Christians who were directly under the Apostles and who knew them personally were witnesses to this and continued Sunday worship--hence the historical quotes I provided as historical evidence testifying to what 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Century Christians were doing.

Early Christian texts like the Didache or letters from Ignatius of Antioch (Ignatius was a disciple of John the Apostle) are very insightful historical texts to show what the early Christians believed and what they were doing. In fact, the Didache (from around the AD 70's) is the earliest written record of the Christian opposition to abortion and infanticide.


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## Galadriel (Aug 7, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> I believe as Christians we should always try to build one another up even if we do not agree, Fact is fact that is true but I try not to insult or make fun of anyone, I also would never encourage it.  For us to be Christians and continuously insult one another is so amazing to me, for that was the past life, that was the old unchristian way to do things. I read these post from folks that say I would never go back in the Christian forum, because folks are nasty and how can Christian and nasty go hand and hand.



Agreed. Although I disagree w/ the SDA view of Sabbath and Sunday worship, I can do so respectfully while laying out my own arguments. Hopefully my post hasn't been seen as trying to tear anyone down, but I wanted to provide insight as to why many Christians hold to worshiping on Sunday and its historical roots.


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## MrsHaseeb (Aug 7, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> The quotes that I provided showed how the earliest Christians viewed Sabbath and Sunday worship. It's not a Catholic vs. Protestant thing. Everyone here knows I'm Catholic, and not everything I post will be "generic Christian," but will come from my understandings, studies, etc. as a Catholic. People can take what they want from it or agree with whatever aspects they wish to.
> 
> Most Protestants do believe in Sunday worship (the Lord's Day) as opposed to keeping a Saturday Sabbath.
> 
> ...



Hi. I was not referring to all of that I was just acknowledging the fact that some of it is Catholic, like the one that refers to the mass. There may be some new comers that do not know you're Catholic and may not know where those writing came from. That's all I meant. I'm fine with what you posted. I have read Didache and Justin Martyr so I'm familiar with those. 

The Bible tells us in many places that the believers met on the Lord's Day, the first day of the week, which we know as Sunday, so I'm not disagreeing with you there. What im saying is, the apostles had no authority to change the Sabbath and there was no reason to. Worship is not about a "Sabbath" at all, be it Saturday or Sunday but about the gathering of believers to worship God together in Spirit and truth. The early believers met when they could because of extreme persecution but Sunday was important but that was when Christ was resurrected.


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## MrsHaseeb (Aug 7, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> MrsHaseeb   you posted a lot and it will take me a moment to go through all of it.
> But I want to say this. Yes its true,  I believe strongly in what I posted because I took the time to study it out. What ever someone else post, I consider and go back and look it up to make sure my understanding is correct, I do not dismiss it. I believe as Christians we should always try to build one another up even if we do not agree, Fact is fact that is true but I try not to insult or make fun of anyone, I also would never encourage it.  For us to be Christians and continuously insult one another is so amazing to me, for that was the past life, that was the old unchristian way to do things. I read these post from folks that say I would never go back in the Christian forum, because folks are nasty and how can Christian and nasty go hand and hand. I am not accusing you. I enjoy reading your post very much, I don't agree with everything from a Christian point of view, but I don't see a need to comment on everything either.  Whenever I post its not going to change. I stand by what I am saying however, I do have an open mind. I can't dismiss everyone  I have to make sure of my own understanding. For my salvation and others is on the line so I would never post just to get people to agree with me.  I do not have a heaven or a hell. I would never wilingly want to lead anyone astride. Not ever. But I will respond to your post. because as I stated above. I have only been a real and true Christian for five years. I have already read the stuff you posted those were my very same arguments.  The question is why? what was I fighting?



Hi blazingthru. Although my posts can seem confrontational I actually separate the person from the post/religion. I can dialogue with a person, but when I see things like this I address it. Its not to attack you personally. My apologies if you took it that way.


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## LucieLoo12 (Aug 7, 2013)

*Disclaimer: I did not read the thread, just the OP.*


Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.  Matthew 5:17


The old testament law should not be discarded. But it shows us the heart and mind of God. He is the same yesturday, today and forevermore. God did not change his mind about what he wanted for His people. But He sent Christ that we would not be saved by just the working of the law, but that our hearts may be purified. He said He would write his heart upon our hearts, not destroy the law.

That's why its so good to study the bible and history because it will give you a better understanding on why God required things at a certain time. Like for example, when it came to the meats and shellfish. Back then there was no refridgeration(sp) or ways to keep things cool. So food was spoil so easily, so God prohibited certain foods because he was keeping His people from sickness and dieases. Not because it was sin to eat those things.

Alot of times people use the "we not under the law" as an excuse to keep sinning. If anything it's more "stricter" (lack of a better word) now under the new testament, than the old testament. Back then you could just sin and do a sin offering. Now God dont even want the sin in your heart.

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. John 1:17. 

Jesus came to show us that the law can be in our hearts and our natures can be changed. No more offering up animals for our sin, but we now offer ourselves up as a living sacrifice. So a sacrifice still has to be offered up just like it was in the old testament.He is still the same


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## Galadriel (Aug 7, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> Hi. I was not referring to all of that I was just acknowledging the fact that some of it is Catholic, like the one that refers to the mass. There may be some new comers that do not know you're Catholic and may not know where those writing came from.



Well, it's kind of obvious the early Christian writings will be Catholic as Protestantism didn't come into existence until the 16th Century. 
It would be more of an issue of someone not knowing basic Christian history rather than me being somehow un-forthcoming that a 70 AD, 100 AD or 300 AD quote is coming from a Catholic Christian theologian or source.


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## MrsHaseeb (Aug 7, 2013)

LucieLoo12 said:


> Disclaimer: I did not read the thread, just the OP.
> 
> Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.  Matthew 5:17
> 
> ...



Amen sis. You share a lot of what I said. The Bible says unless our righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees we will not enter the Kingdom of heaven. The scribes and Pharisees not only kept the law but knew it front to back. What was the issue? They had dirty hearts. The outside looked clean but outside was full if dead men's bones. The new testament writes the law in the heart to regenerate you from the inside out and transform you into a new type of life because you're born of God's Spirit. Trying to keep 10 commandments puts a person in a position no better than the scribes and Pharisees. The bar is raised in the New Testament and far exceeds the expectation of an external law. Keeping the law is really a cop out. Matthew chapter 5 makes it plain. We have the Holy Spirit, the nature of God so obeying the commandments of God is not grievous for a born again person. The law was meant to be a guide and shadow directing you to Jesus Christ, who would come and purify the heart. The law wasn't the issue in the Old Testament, the fact that man in his fallen nature could not obey it was. We need to get in Christ and the Spirit will teach us to walk in the will of God according to his Word.


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## MrsHaseeb (Aug 7, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> Well, it's kind of obvious the early Christian writings will be Catholic as Protestantism didn't come into existence until the 16th Century.
> It would be more of an issue of someone not knowing basic Christian history rather than me being somehow un-forthcoming that a 70 AD, 100 AD or 300 AD quote is coming from a Catholic Christian theologian or source.



I was trying to avoid this conversation ... The early believers were not Catholic (or Protestant for that matter), especially in the sense of what is seen today. Most of what is seen today as the Catholic Church was developed over time just as it was with Protestantism, which are simply little catholics to me. I am NOT a Protestant. Either way, you believe in Catholicism so I'm perfectly fine with that  However, don't give me that "the Catholic Church is the mother Church that Jesus started" line. I'm not interested. We have had that conversation enough. Thanks!


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## Galadriel (Aug 7, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> I was trying to avoid this conversation ... The early believers were not Catholic (or Protestant for that matter), especially in the sense of what is seen today. Most of what is seen today as the Catholic Church was developed over time just as it was with Protestantism, which are simply little catholics to me. I am NOT a Protestant. Either way, you believe in Catholicism so I'm perfectly fine with that  However, don't give me that "the Catholic Church is the mother Church that Jesus started" line. I'm not interested. We have had that conversation enough. Thanks!



Actually, you are wrong. This is why I think it's very important to actually study early Christian history b/c so many people rely on assumptions or parrot things they've heard.


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## MrsHaseeb (Aug 7, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> Actually, you are wrong. This is why I think it's very important to actually study early Christian history b/c so many people rely on assumptions or parrot things they've heard.



Catholicism has been around a long time, I'm not denying that. But the whole system is false. Either way, you believe it and we've discussed it more times than I care to count. You have every right to believe what you want. I'm OK with you and respect you a great deal as a person so this is nothing personal. Jesus said you'd know them by their fruit... The fruit have told me all I need to know.


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## blazingthru (Aug 7, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> blazingthru, I’m sorry but your entire post incorrect according to scripture. First off, the true Sabbath absolutely is Saturday, not Sunday. But that’s totally irrelevant. New Testament believers are never commanded to keep a Sabbath though there is absolutely nothing wrong with observing the Sabbath if a person chooses to do so. *Christ didn’t even keep the Sabbath correctly according the Pharisees.* New Testament believers worship in Spirit and truth. That's why the idea of a holy day for new testament believers makes no sense. The Sabbath is not God’s seal. You can’t find that anywhere in the New Testament at all.



Which was wonderful for us, because the Pharisees added a huge bunch of Laws that were not what God had put in place, His laws were simple, their laws were complicated.  Jesus showed us that it was good to do good on the Sabbath.   He is the creator of the Sabbath, who are the Pharisees to tell God what to do on his day? Please! They were stiff-necked, sanctimonious, hypocritical men

They proudly wore their piety. They were a hyper-conservative element of believers who were zealous about the Scriptures, the law of God, and the purity of the worship of Jehovah. When the Jews were captive in Babylon, the prophets told them they were overcome because of their unfaithfulness to God. In response, the sect of Pharisees formed so that Israel would no longer allow themselves to be influenced by the surrounding pagan nations. Fastidious in the details of their religion, the Pharisees knew that if Israel were to fall into idolatry again, God might forever withdraw His protection. So this was generally a good group of people who were just very zealous in their belief of keeping themselves undefiled by their environment.  Unfortunately, many and perhaps most of the Pharisees let their zealotry for obedience eclipse their love for their fellow man. Jesus called them on the carpet several times for their preoccupation with external religion and rebuked them for their self-righteous wickedness. “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness” (Matthew 23:27).

I have a great deal to post, but  notice you mention the new testament often, or you a 'new testament" christian, you must realize there is no understanding of the bible with just one book, you need both books to understand the bible.


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## JaneBond007 (Aug 7, 2013)

I have been aiming to observe the Sabbath more this year but something always comes up.  The Sabbath is very important, whether Saturday or Sunday, there is something G-d wishes to reveal to us if we listen.


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## blazingthru (Aug 7, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> New Testament believers worship in Spirit and truth. That's why the idea of a holy day for new testament believers makes no sense. *The Sabbath is not God’s seal. You can’t find that anywhere in the New Testament at all.
> 
> Colossians 2 16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.*



These things you mention are not part of the 10 commandments, they are the ceremonial laws. This also does not apply to the unclean and clean meats.  this is not part of the 10 commandments. 

There were yearly sabbaths which had absolutely nothing to do with the Seventh-day Sabbath of the decalogue. And they were definitely a part of the “ordinance” system which ended at the cross. “Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation” (Leviticus 23:24). Again we read, “Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement ... It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest” (Leviticus 27, 32). As you can clearly see, these annual sabbaths fell on a different day of the week every year, and God specifically explained that they were not to be confused with the weekly Sabbath. “These are the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, everything upon his day: BESIDE THE SABBATHS OF THE LORD” (Leviticus 37, 38). 
Now we can understand what Paul was referring to in Colossians when he wrote about meat and drink and sabbath days which are shadows. There were certain prescribed offerings for each of those yearly feast days, and they were shadows pointing to the future sacrifice of Jesus. But the Bible says these were “Beside The Sabbaths Of The Lord,” or the Seventh-day Sabbath.

The weekly Sabbath was instituted by God *before sin* came into the world. There could never be types or shadows before sin existed! All the shadows were introduced because of sin and pointed forward to the deliverance from sin through Christ. For example, all the lambs slain represented Jesus, the true LAMB, who would die for the sins of the world. If sin had not entered the world, there would have been no need of a Saviour, and therefore, no lambs or shadows pointing to a Saviour. Now it is fully established which law was blotted out and nailed to the cross. At the moment of Christ’s death, the veil of the temple was ripped from top to bottom by an unseen hand (Matthew 27:51). The most holy place of the sanctuary was exposed where the sprinkled blood recorded all the sins of the people. But no more blood needed to be sprinkled; no more lambs needed to be slain; the true Lamb had come to which all those sacrifices pointed. From henceforth, it would be a denial of the Saviour to bring animals. It would be denying that He was the fulfillment of all the shadows and types. Therefore, it would be “against us” or “contrary to us” to continue observing that mosaic law.

What are the some of the elements of a seal?

God's seal is found in His law. A seal is what makes a document official, and it normally contains three characteristics: Name, Office, and Territory.
The 4th commandment has all the elements of a seal.  The fourth commandment is the only one that contains all three elements of a seal: 

1) "The Lord"--His name, (2) "made"--His office as Creator, (3) "heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is"--His territory.

 Ezekiel 20:12 

12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them.
Ezekiel 20:20 (KJV 1900)

20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the Lord your God.

If the government summons you to court at a certain time, it expects you to be there—not three days earlier or a day after. If it asks you to testify at a trial, it expects you to answer questions and not read a sports magazine. Neither does it want you to show up late or leave early. It also considers you in contempt of court, a lawbreaker, if you ignore the judge while he or she is trying to speak with you. 

I have no doubt that most sincere Christians citizens would be angered by such disrespect for the institution for justice, yet these same Christians do not respect God’s government regarding time with Him in His chamber. They don’t show up when asked, and if they do, it’s often on another day and they don’t do the things asked of them. 

Many Christians exclude the fourth Commandment from the other nine as a law meant only for the Jews. Others say that it is still a Commandment to obey, but one that Christians should practice on the first day of the week instead of the last day. Others still argue that it doesn’t matter what day, as long as time is given to God. Yet can you ever imagine finding a judge who orders a trial on Wednesday to accept: “I showed up on Thursday! As long as I show up, does it really matter?” Of course, God will accept praise any day and time, and He will bless you for it. But this Commandment asks for your presence at a particular place and time! 

Why is it then that when a judge tells us to show up, we know we are breaking the law when we don’t and will suffer the penalty—but if the Judge of the universe asks us to show on a certain day, it’s really just our call? By ignoring or altering the fourth Commandment, it is no longer a relevant part of the 10 Commandments as written in the Bible—the inspired Word of God. Indeed, if it can change on the whims of a person, why not the others? But Jesus Himself emphatically said this would never be the case. “Think not that I come to destroy the law … but to fulfill” (Matthew 5:17,18). He also said not one part of it would change, not even if the earth and its people passed into history. It’s for all time and for all creation! In addition, He said the wording of the law would never change (Luke 16:17), which is what exactly has to happen if we are to accept that the first day is the Sabbath. Can you imagine changing a court summons date and passing it off as lawful? 

Many are surprised to hear that neither Jesus nor the New Testament writers ever tell Jewish converts to worship on the first day of the week. You might guess that many Jews would be put off by such a statement—after all, the Commandments are an essential part of their lives (their ancestors were stoned for not following it!) and they had heard with their own ears Jesus tell them to keep the Commandments. Public defenders would be outraged if a judge told them one day to be ready for trial on Thursday, then suddenly moved it to Wednesday to appease the prosecutors without telling the defense! Yet we hear about no such controversy regarding the Sabbath in the Bible. 

This becomes even more problematic when Paul puts a stop to the practice of circumcision, replacing the commitment, or altering it, with baptism (Colossians 2:11). His act of transforming the circumcision ceremony created a deep division in the church, yet we are to believe the transformation of the Sabbath did not? Many claim the fact that Jesus doesn’t vocally reinforce the Sabbath in the New Testament proves, from silence, that He must have not considered it important. But since He did observe the Sabbath, and because we see no Jewish outcry, the argument from silence works best the other way around. Indeed, Jesus often mentions a Commandment to add more meaning to it. It isvery possible that the light on the Sabbath in the Bible is sufficient, so He saw no reason to mention it. Of course, Jesus does mention the Sabbath while defending it from legalists (Matthew 12:1–12), and He honored the Sabbath by going to the synagogue, as “was his custom” (Luke 4:16).


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## blazingthru (Aug 7, 2013)

*Thinking that keeping a Sabbath is God’s seal is deception, plain and simple. It’s denial of the Holy Spirit. *

The Sabbath is the seal of God. It does not deny the Holy Spirit at all. These are two very great and different things. The Holy Spirit is our gift to help us understand the word and to guide us and help us. The Sabbath is our date with the Lord. It is our day of rest, which we rest from all that we do and reflect on what God is doing in our lives and to give him praise, But He gave us this Day this is out date set forever, it will never change, but he does say someone would think to change time and laws.  So yes it was changed  in folks mind, but God has said remember it. its not lost. 

Jesus gave the vision of Revelation to the Apostle John on the Sabbath when he was a prisoner on the lonely isle of Patmos. John simply described it as happening "on the Lord's day" (Revelation 1:10). But which day is the Lord's day? In Isaiah 58:13, God refers to the Sabbath as "my holy day." Never, not once in the Bible is the first day called the Lord's day!  This is how many years after the ascension? Quite some time. They continued to observe the Sabbath until 300 years later.  We need both the first and the second testament to understand the bible. What was nailed to the cross was the ceremonial laws the blood covered all of that everything thing else remains. We need the whole book to understand the passages within.  
The Sabbath is the Lords Day and its starts Friday sunset to Saturday sunset. When the sun sets its now a new day. Not when the sun rises. That’s man’s teachings. 
(Matthew 4:4)  But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ John 15:14   Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
1 John 3:4  Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 
Matthew 7:21-23 makes it clear that many who prophesy, cast out devils, and do many wonderful works in Christ's name will be lost but will think they are saved. Christ said they are lost because they did not do "the will of my Father which is in heaven." Mathew 7: 21. Those who refuse to obey God will end up believing a lie (2 Thessalonians 2:11, 12) and thus think they are saved when instead they are lost.

There is much more. I'll be back


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## MrsHaseeb (Aug 7, 2013)

Blazingthru, I plan to read all of that when I get the opportunity. Its been a long day at work so my eyes may be closing before I can read all that tonight.


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## blazingthru (Aug 8, 2013)

*Rejection of a Christian being under law saying they need to keep a Sabbath has nothing to do with rejecting truth because Christ Jesus is truth. Anybody trying to keep the 10 commandments is under a curse because you are trying to keep the law rather than becoming the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus by the Holy Spirit. *

The ceremonial laws were under a curse, not the Ten Commandments which by the way. Most people do not know that some of those things are sin. Whether they accept Jesus or not, learning how to live a life that is pleasing to God, comes from the Word. The Holy Spirit brings your own study back to your memory when needed.  But you actually have to do the work. The ceremonial law was considered to be a law which was “against” them. Even in the New Testament we read the same descriptive language in reference to that law. “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross” (Colossians 2:14)  Jesus shed blood stopped all of those ordinances, the sacrifices etc., the Festival ceremonies and the Sabbaths. (notice it’s not Sabbath but Sabbaths.) The ceremonial laws was not called good and holy Ezekiel 20:24 (KJV 1900)
24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers’ idols. Ezekiel 20:25 (KJV 1900) 25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live; but the Commandments Romans 7:12 (KJV 1900)  12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 
How can you become the righteousness of God if you do not obey him, is not that the main request that he has ask of us.  Obedience!  How can we obey God if we do not know what his requests are? Yes it’s written in our hearts, a sense of right and wrong, but you can ignore it you know. Do you think it’s still speaking to you? You can ignore it and still say you’re a Christian.  Knowing the Law is what changes you being convicted by it changes you. The Holy Spirit guides you. But again you have to do the work. You have to want to have a relationship with God and build on it. It doesn’t just happen it’s a work in progress.  You know most Christian smoke in front of the church it’s totally acceptable; they believe that it’s okay. Many are having sex unmarried, abortion etc., totally acceptable, because they are not under the Law they are under grace and then when judgment comes they find themselves lost. But the Church condones this behavior because they were not under the law, but look where they all ended up. Outside. I love my parents and they have rules.  I obey those rules for two reasons, one I don’t want to be punished and I love them.  The I love them rules comes in where I can break the rule it will not lead to a punishment but it would hurt my parents, so I chose not to break the rule because of my relationship with my parents and my love for them.  We follow the Law because we love the Lord with our whole heart it is not a series of do’s and don’ts its obedience because these things lead to my protection and my salvation and God has created these commandments so that we can spend eternity with him and because we love him we will obey.   
Matthew 5:18 (KJV 1900)
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.  All has not been fulfilled yet. We are still here living under sin. So there is more to come.
Hebrews 4:1-10
4 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them,[a] not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:
“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’”*
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; [c] 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”[d]

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”[e]
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. 
Love is the fulfilling of the law just as Paul repeated it later in Romans 13:10. If one loves Christ supremely with heart, soul, and mind, he will obey the first four commandments that have to do with our duty to God. He will not take God’s name in vain, worship other gods, etc. If one loves his neighbor as himself, he will obey the last six commandments that relate to our duty to our fellow men. He will not be able to steal from his neighbor, lie about him, etc. Love will lead to obeying or fulfilling all the law.*


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## blazingthru (Aug 8, 2013)

*Galatians outlines this perfectly. Quote all the old testament you want about the Sabbath, Paul makes it plain in Colossians that the Sabbath and the entire law was just a shadow of what was to come, which was Christ.*

Ceremonial Laws, is what Paul was talking about. Why do we know that? The blood does not remove the Holy day. Just as your birthday never change neither will Gods day of rest. We still have to be faithful to our husbands. We are still not to have graven idols none of those Laws were part of the ceremonial Laws.


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## blazingthru (Aug 8, 2013)

*Ephesians 1 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. 

The Holy Spirit brings to your memory the things that you have already studied. He doesn't sit down and teach you. The word of God teaches and you pray for the Holy Spirits guidance and you pray that you understand the scriptures. Which the Holy Spirit"the helper" will help you. This does not negate your acceptance and practice of the Sabbath day worship. Or your obedience of the Law. The Holy Spirit warns you of breaking the Laws. Holy Spirit cleanses, purifies, and refreshes our souls. However, when the Holy Spirit is convicting us of something we should do or quit doing, if we refuse to surrender and to accept the purifying work of the Spirit, we can hardly expect to receive another draft of this blessing. It is the Holy Spirit's work to convict us of sin (John 16:8) and to guide us to all truth (John 16:13). Then, as we respond to the leading of God's Holy Spirit in our lives, He becomes our Comforter (John 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7) Also, the holy spirit comes in waves or different portions of our life. When he is most needed.  You have angels watching over you and walking with you the Holy Spirit comes as needed. 

quote from db: the first person that you see being baptized in the Holy Spirit like this is Elisha.

When he was following Elijah, he said when you go up to Heaven, I want a double portion of your Spirit.  And when Elijah went up, the Holy Spirit came in double portion on Elisha.  Well it’s the same thing.  When Jesus ascended, He then sent the Spirit in Pentecostal power to His followers.  But Samson, when the Holy Spirit came on him, it was the Holy Spirit that gave him that supernatural strength.

Holy Spirit came on King Saul and he prophesied.  The Holy Spirit came on David, and he wrote psalms.  So people were baptized in the Holy Spirit in a variety of ways in the Old Testament before we ever see it in the New Testament.*


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## MrsHaseeb (Aug 8, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> Galatians outlines this perfectly. Quote all the old testament you want about the Sabbath, Paul makes it plain in Colossians that the Sabbath and the entire law was just a shadow of what was to come, which was Christ.
> 
> Ceremonial Laws, is what Paul was talking about. Why do we know that? The blood does not remove the Holy day. Just as your birthday never change neither will Gods day of rest. We still have to be faithful to our husbands. We are still not to have graven idols none of those Laws were part of the ceremonial Laws.



Blazingthru.... I have kind of scanned through all of your posts. No, Paul was not talking about ceremonial law. The Lord's day in the New Testament is SUNDAY! The day Jesus was resurrected. When I say new testament I'm not referring to Matthew to Revelation but rather the new covenant believer who has been filled with the Spirit. I'm not a person who thinks the old testament books are invalid. There is wisdom in those books. But its the Holy Spirit that revelates the Word. You going back to keeping a law and a Sabbath is putting you in bondage to law. The new testament NEVER commands anyone to keep a Sabbath. You know why? The Sabbath was a shadow to get to Christ. When you see a shadow on the ground, if you keep following it you'll get to the person who is casting the shadow, that is Jesus. He is the culmination of the law, he makes everyday holy. I say this is love to you but you need the Holy Ghost .... He does not lead people further into deception. He sets people free. You can't find anywhere in the Bible where the Sabbath was said to set people apart. Rather it was circumcision. When David went out to meet Goliath he called him and uncircumcised Philistine, not a non Sabbath keeping Philistine. The standards of a new covenant Holy Spirit filled believer far exceeds that of the 10 commandments. We are children of Promise under Abraham made righteous by faith, not law. Abraham didn't have a law yet was considered righteous and there was no commandment for keeping a Sabbath. The Sabbath came with the law in Exodus, not the promise.

Matthew 5:21-22, 27-30, 33-36, 38-40, 43-47 KJV
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: [22] But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. [27] Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: [28] But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. [29] And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. [30] And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. [33] Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: [34] But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: [35] Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. [36] Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. [38] Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: [39] But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. [40] And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. [43] Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others ? do not even the publicans so?

Look at how Christ addresses the law here! He doesn't even call it the law, lol. He says you've heard it said. Then he tells you what the expectations are now. No saved person needs to be told not to lie if the commandments are in their heart. Going back under law is a twisted understanding of what being a new covenant believer is. Nothing I say is to insult you and its also not to downplay the Sabbath. All of the commandments were for a reason. But the person who decides to go to the law for how to live rather than being Spirit led will be judged by the law. I have outlined it for you. If it seems difficult, you just need to be born again. I don't say that to be mean. I say it because anybody not born again will go to law by nature! Those who need law still have the nature of the world. Galatians is spent the whole time talking about people being put back under the law and its clear that Paul detested it. If that's not plain.... I'm not quite sure what more I can say. You be blessed and I will pray for you.


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## LucieLoo12 (Aug 8, 2013)

The bible never states that the Sabbath was on a Saturday or a Sunday, so where are we getting this from?


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## blazingthru (Aug 8, 2013)

LucieLoo12 said:


> The bible never states that the Sabbath was on a Saturday or a Sunday, so where are we getting this from?



The Sabbath is the 7th day. that is in Genesis

Genesis 2
New King James Version (NKJV)
2 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Our days were 1st Day 2nd Day 3rd Day 4th Day 5th Day 6th is preparation day and the 7th Day was the Sabbath it is a day of Rest.


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## blazingthru (Aug 8, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> Blazingthru.... I have kind of scanned through all of your posts. No, Paul was not talking about ceremonial law. The Lord's day in the New Testament is SUNDAY!




Okay where is this in the text.  I would love to read this.  Because I searched for it. I could not find that God changed the day. 

I can find the warning of the Church who changed the day.  No mention, not one word from God. Who is the creator.

There are two primary laws taught in Scripture: the moral law of the Ten Commandments and the ceremonial law contained in ordinances. One was written by God's finger on stone and the other by the hand of Moses on parchment.

Notice how Deuteronomy 4 distinguishes between the two:

Moral Law: "And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone" (Deuteronomy 4:13).

Ceremonial Law: "And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it" (Deuteronomy 4:14).

Colossians 2:14 tells us that the law that was nailed to the cross was the "handwriting of ordinances," not the finger writing. And which law was that? "They will take heed to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses" (2 Chronicles 33:8, emphasis added). The law nailed to the cross in Colossians 2 was written on paper and "against us." (Plus, it is very difficult to nail stone tablets to anything.)

"Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee" (Deuteronomy 31:26, emphasis added). The Ten Commandment law, written by the finger of God on tablets of stone, was inside the ark; the ceremonial law, written by the hand of Moses, was placed in a pocket on the side of the ark.

So we can see that Colossians 2 is speaking of the ceremonial laws and annual sabbaths (feasts) that were nailed to the cross. That's why when Jesus died, the veil in the temple was torn (Matthew 27:51).

Sadly, most of the Jewish nation was so engrossed in types and shadows that they failed to see the fulfillment of those Messianic symbols in Jesus. Even the Christian church had a hard time separating the shadow and the reality. Some Jewish Christians required all the Gentile converts to observe all the Jewish ceremonies that pointed to the Messiah. Somehow they didn't yet see the big picture-that the coming of the Messiah had done away with the need for those types and shadows. This is why the Apostle Paul exhorts the Colossian Christians to not allow anyone to judge them in respect of the sabbath days, "which are a shadow of things to come" (Colossians 2:17).

God Does Not Change!
But what if we keep the law and just change the Sabbath commandment from seventh-day worship to first-day worship? The first roadblock is that such a change simply isn't biblical. That really makes it impossible for anyone to keep Sunday holy. You see, the commandment doesn't say to make the Sabbath day holy. It says that God made it holy and set it apart for holy use (sanctified it). We can find no place in Scripture where God transferred the sanctity of Sabbath to Sunday. Therefore, there is no way to keep the first day holy since He didn't make it holy in the first place.

Ultimately one needs to ask the hard question. Since Jesus made the Sabbath before the entrance of sin, and that which God blesses is blessed forever(1 Chronicles 17:27), why would He need to change His own eternal law? He declares, "I am the Lord, I change not" (Malachi 3:6)!

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Hebrews 13:8). Why would God write the Sabbath commandment in stone with His own finger, speak it with His own voice, and than change it with out even producing a vague biblical reference?

The bottom line is to determine why God made the Sabbath and what advantage there might possibly be in changing it. For one thing, God wanted man and domestic beasts to enjoy physical rest that day. During the French Revolution, in the backlash against the church abuse, the atheistic leaders called for doing away with anything religious. Included in the religious ban was a change in the weekly cycle. They could find no astronomical reason for the seven-day week, so they concluded that the weekly cycle was intrinsically religious. They replaced it with a ten-day work cycle but soon found that, not only were the people dissatisfied because of physical exhaustion, but also the draft animals were constantly fatigued. It wasn't long before France returned to the seven-day week.

But physical rest was only a minor part of the full blessing God had in mind for mankind. God wants to enjoy spiritual fellowship with His created beings. The Bible gives no indication that there was a week or a Sabbath in heaven before Creation. The Sabbath was made for man, not for angels. However, God enjoys it so much that He intends to keep it with us throughout eternity. Someday He is moving His universal capitol to this earth (Revelation chapter 21), and He invites all the redeemed to meet with Him for Sabbath each week (Isaiah 66:23).

The Sabbath is, among other things, a memorial of God's creative and redemptive power. It is also a sign of His re-creative power in our lives. "Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them" (Ezekiel 20:12).

The weekly Sabbath rest also points to the eternal rest that God is preparing for the redeemed (Hebrews 4:1-11). This rest was typified by entering into the promised land for ancient Israel. Spiritual Israel looks forward to the promise of a new earth "wherein dwelleth righteousness" (2 Peter 3:13).

"Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it" (Hebrews 4:1).

Jesus is inviting you now to experience the spiritual and physical rest of this blessed day in His presence.

"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light" (Matthew 11:28-30).

_____________________


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## blazingthru (Aug 8, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> Blazingthru....  The new testament NEVER commands anyone to keep a Sabbath. You know why? The Sabbath was a shadow to get to Christ. QUOTE]
> 
> Acts 20:7, "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread,"  evidence that the disciples were having a communion service on the first day, thus designating it as the new day of worship. *But the New Testament records that the disciples broke bread from house to house "daily" (Acts 2:46).
> *
> ...


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## blazingthru (Aug 8, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> Blazingthru....  You going back to keeping a law and a Sabbath is putting you in bondage to law.



The first four commandments define our responsibility to our Creator.

The last six are the foundation of all human civil law. If the moral law were rescinded, there would be no safe place on earth for anyone.

They do not point to Christ, These are the commandment laws and they never change as long as we are on this earth. 

We would not survive if it was not for the Law.  I have a question what is so difficult about obeying the Sabbath? 

Oh and MrsHaseeb, I do not agree with anything you have posted. I believe that the scriptures are taken out of concept and have a total misunderstanding of what the Law actually means, however, I will not call into question your faith, your salvation and whether or not you have the Holy Spirit.  You will not agree with me that is your choice as is mine.  I am not trying to force you to agree with me at all.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Aug 8, 2013)

I think that about settles it.


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## blazingthru (Aug 8, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> *Blazingthru....He is the culmination of the law, he makes everyday holy. I say this is love to you but you need the Holy Ghost .... He does not lead people further into deception. He sets people free.
> 
> You can't find anywhere in the Bible where the Sabbath was said to set people apart. *


*


to the New Testament, all the fight was in the old. So you only reference the new testament because you think that the old is irrelevant. They work together.  The Sabbath points to the one and true God, the people who worship on the Sabbath were set apart, they worship and they did not allow anyone to profane that day, the gates were shut. No work was being done, Did not other folks see that.  Today, it is the same, We Sabbath Keepers are at service on the Sabbath, we do not go out to eat, shop or work, nor do we ask anyone to do it for us. 

But lets see what the new testament says about the commandments

First Commandment
Acts 14:11-15 Living and True God
1 Cor 8:4-6 Idol Nothing ----- One God
Second Commandment
1 Cor. 12:2 Gentiles - These Dumb Idols
1 Cor. 10:14 - Flee from Idolatry.
Acts 17:29- Ought not think God likes gold silver, etc.,
1 John 5:21  - keep yourselves from Idols
Third Commandment
James 5:12 Swear not--- Yea by Yea
Fourth Commandment
Heb 4:9 There Remain
Fifth Commandment
Eph. 6:2 Honour thy father and mother
Sixth Commandment
Rome 13:9 Shall not kill
Seventh Commandment
Rome 13:9 Shall not commit adultery
Eight Commandment
Rome 13:9 shall not steal
James 2:11
Ninth Commandment
Rome 13:9 Shalt not bear false witness
Tenth Commandment
Rome 13:9 Shall not covet

Eccl 12:13  Fear God and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Deut. 11:18, 19;3015, 16,
Rom. 2:13, 3:19, 20; James 1;25, Rom 7:7, 1 John 3:4, Rev 22:1 James 2:8-12; Ps 3730m 31

The Law of God can never pass away.
Matt 5:18
Ps 119-114, 152, 160; 1Chron 16:15-17; Ps. 111:7,8.

The Sabbath is a sign forever
Ex 31:16-17

 - if your in Christ you are a new creature and you have been grafted into the tree, you are now a jew.  You are part of the new covenant. which I will speak more in detail about. 

*


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Aug 8, 2013)

It seems that you both are finally in agreement, neither of you believe the other.


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## blazingthru (Aug 8, 2013)

The Ten-Commandment law was not the Old Covenant which was abolished. 

 covenant is an agreement between two parties based upon mutual promises. All through the centuries Godhas dealt with His people on the basis of covenants. He is a reasonable God, and he invites, "Come now, and let us reason together." Isaiah 1:18. 

Sometimes God established pacts with individuals like Moses, Abraham, and David, and sometimes with the nation of Israel. The most important covenant of all was set up long before this world came into existence. It was a covenant between the Father and the Son and had to do with the eventuality of sin. Jesus offered Himself there in the vast eternity of the past as the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Revelation 13:8. He agreed to become the atoning sacrifice to redeem man, should Adam and Eve choose to sin. 

The terms of that eternal covenant have never been changed or superseded. Although many other covenants have been established through the years, the simple provision of salvation through faith has remained in effect through all ages, for all mankind. 

The covenant which has caused the most misunderstanding, though, is designated as "the Old Covenant" by the writer of Hebrews. He also describes the institution of a new covenant which has some very important advantages over the old. Here is how he describes the two: "But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: ... For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Hebrews 8:6-13. 

This description leaves no room for doubt concerning the fate of the Old Covenant. It was set aside in favor of a new one which had better promises. Naturally, we are interested to know all about that new covenant which will place God's law in the heart and mind. But we also need to understand the nature of the covenant which disappeared. Millions have been taught that it was the Ten-Commandment law. They boast of being delivered from the law and claim to walk in a glorious freedom from the Old Testament covenant of works.

The Old Covenant -- Not the Ten Commandments

Is this a biblical position? It is just as important to understand what the Old Covenant was not, as to know what it was. Right now, let us look at three absolute proofs that the covenant which disappeared was not the Ten Commandments. Then we will determine by comparing scripture with scripture just what the Old Covenant was. 

First of all, we notice that the Old Covenant had some poor promises in it. The New Covenant, we are told, "was established upon better promises." Verse 6. Tell me, has anyone ever been able to point out any poor promises in the Ten Commandments? Never. On the contrary, Paul declares that they were very good. "Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise; That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth." Ephesians 6:1-3. 

This declaration alone is sufficient to show that the writer of Hebrews was not charging the moral law with any weak promises. The Old Covenant, whatever else it might be, could never be the Ten Commandments. 

The second thing wrong with the Old Covenant was that it was faulty. The Bible says, "For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second." Hebrews 8:7. Let me ask you a question: Has any man ever been able to find a fault or a flaw in the handwriting of God? The psalmist declared, "The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Psalm 19:7. Paul wrote, "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." Romans 7:12. 

Does that sound like something weak and imperfect? No law could be perfect and faulty at the same time. It becomes more and more apparent that the Old Covenant could not have been the Ten Commandments.


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## blazingthru (Aug 8, 2013)

Finally, though, we read the most dramatic thing about the Old Covenant - it was to be abolished! "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Hebrews 8:13. Now we can ask a serious question that should settle every doubt on this matter. Did the great moral law of Ten Commandments vanish away? Anyone who has read the New Testament must answer, Absolutely not. Paul affirms the exact opposite about the law. He asked, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Romans 3:31. 

Does the Bible contradict itself? Can something vanish away and be established at the same time? Did the same writer say opposite things about the same law? Just to be certain that Paul was not saying that the Old Covenant was the law, let us insert the words "Old Covenant" instead of the word "law" into Romans 3:31. "Do we than make void the Old Covenant through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the Old Covenant." 

That doesn't sound right at all, does it? We know that the Old Covenant had vanished away and could never be spoken of in this way. Very clearly, then, we can see that the covenant which came to an end could not have been the Ten Commandments.

What Was the Old Covenant?

Having found what the Old Covenant was not, we are now ready to identify it specifically from the Word. To do so we must go back in the Bible to the book of Exodus. Many people have failed to see that there was more than one covenant involved at Mt. Sinai. God called Moses up into the mountain before He gave the law and proposed a covenant between Him and His people: "And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; ... if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me ... an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel." Exodus 19:3-6. 

Notice how God asked Moses to present His offer to the people. Here are all the elements of a true covenant. Conditions and promises are laid down for both sides. If the children of Israel accept God's proposal, a covenant will be established. How did they respond to the divine offer? "And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the Lord commanded him. And all the people answered together, and said, All that the Lord hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the Lord." Exodus 19:7, 8. 

Just as soon as that answer went back to God, the basis for the Old Covenant was set up. But before it could go into formal operation there had to be a sealing or ratifying of the pact. This ritualistic service involved the sprinkling of the blood of an ox on the people and is described in Exodus 24:4-8: "And Moses wrote all the words of the Lord, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel. And he sent young men of the children of Israel which ... sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the Lord. And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basins; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words."


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## blazingthru (Aug 8, 2013)

Again we are reminded that this covenant was not the law itself but was made "concerning all these words." The Ten Commandments were the basis for the agreement. The people promised to keep that law, and God promised to bless them in return. The crucial weakness in the whole arrangement revolved around the way Israel promised. There was no suggestion that they could not fully conform to every requirement of God. Neither was there any application for divine assistance. "We can do it," they insisted. Here is a perfect example of leaning on the flesh and trusting human strength. The words are filled with self-confidence. "All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient." 

Were they able to keep that promise? In spite of their repeated assurances, they miserably broke their word before Moses could even get off the mountain with the tables of stone. Do we begin to see where the poor promises lay in the Old Covenant? 

The book of Hebrews begins to unfold. There God is reported as "finding fault with them." Hebrews 8:8. He said, "Because they continued not in my covenant ... I regarded them not." Verse 9. The blame is placed squarely upon the human side of the mutual pact. Thus, we can see exactly why Paul wrote as he did about this Old Covenant in Hebrews 8. It did gender to bondage, it proved faulty, had poor promises, and vanished away - all because the people failed to obey their part of the agreement. Putting all these things together we can see why a new covenant was desperately needed, which would have better promises. 

How were the New Covenant promises better? Because God made them, and they guaranteed successful obedience through His strength alone. "I will put my laws into their mind ... I will be to them a God ... I will be merciful to their unrighteousness and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more." Hebrews 8:10-12. 

How was the New Covenant ratified? In the same manner that the Old was confirmed - by the shedding of blood. But instead of an ox having to shed its blood, the sinless Son of God would provide the blood of sprinkling: "Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well-pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ." Hebrews 13:20, 21. 

What a contrast to the weak promises of the flesh made by Israel at Sinai. Instead of the people's "we will do," God's New Covenant promise is to "make you perfect in every good work ... working in you." It is no longer human effort. It is not so much you working, but Him "working in you." And how is this power made available? "Through the blood of the everlasting covenant." Because of what Jesus did on the cross.


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## blazingthru (Aug 8, 2013)

The New Covenant Based on Conversion

This brings us to the very heart of the New Covenant operation. Obedience is made possible by the writing of God's law on the heart. Through spiritual regeneration the mind and heart are transformed. Christ actually enters into the life of the believer and imparts His own strength for obedience. By partaking of the divine nature, the weakest human being begins to live the very life of Jesus Christ, manifesting His victory, and crucifying the flesh. 

Paul describes that transaction this way: "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:3, 4. 

The word for righteousness is "dikaima," meaning "just requirement" of the law. In other words, because of Jesus' sinless life in the flesh, the requirement of the law can be fulfilled in us. He overcame sin in the same kind of body we have, so that He could impart that victory to us. He will actually live out His own holy life of separation from sin in our earthly bodies if we will permit Him to do so. This is the New Covenant promise for every believing, trusting child of God. And it is absolutely the only way that anyone can meet the requirements of the law: "Christ in you, the hope of glory." Colossians 1:27. "The life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Galatians 2:20. 

It is most important for us to understand that the New Covenant law written on the heart is exactly the same law that was graven on the stone. Those great spiritual principles reflect the very character of God, and form the basis for His government. The difference is not in the law but in the ministration of the law. Written only upon the tables of stone, they can only condemn and minister death, "because the carnal mind ... is not subject to the law of God." Romans 8:7. Received into the heart which has been spiritualized by the converting grace of Christ, the same law becomes a delight. The beloved John declared, "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." 1 John 5:3. Not only is the law not grievous for the Spirit-filled child of God, but obedience becomes a joyful possibility. The psalmist wrote, "I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart." Psalms 40:8. 

No Change in the New Covenant After Calvary

Since the New Covenant was ratified by the blood of Christ, it obviously could not have gone into effect until after Jesus died on the cross. This crucial fact must not be overlooked. Eternal life or death could hinge upon the proper understanding of this key point. Paul wrote, "For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth." Hebrews 9:16, 17. The word "testament" is the same as the word "covenant." Only after a man's last will and testament has been ratified by his death can the provisions be executed. In the same way, Christ's covenant or testament would begin to operate just as soon as He had confirmed the covenant by His death at Calvary. 

Another text leaves no question on this issue: "Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto." Galatians 3:15. Paul is saying here that after a man's death, his will or covenant cannot be changed. Not one new addition can be made after the death of the testator. The covenant stands forever exactly as it stood when the testator died. After the death of Christ, no change whatsoever could be made in His provisions to save mankind. The conditions were all sealed and ratified by the shedding of blood. Every requirement had been laid down clearly by the perfect pattern of His sinless life and provision had been made for the writing of His magnified law, by the Holy Spirit, upon the mind of each believer. 

Under the terms of that New Covenant not one soul would be left to struggle helplessly against the powerful urges of a fallen nature. "Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound." Romans 5:20. Eternal promises rooted in the changeless nature of God would provide power to overcome every inherited and cultivated weakness. No wonder the Bible emphasizes the "better promises" of this glorious new agreement! 

Now it is easy to understand some of the things Jesus did just before He died. For example, why did He institute the Lord's Supper before His body had been broken? On the Thursday night before His agonizing death on Friday, Jesus met with His disciples in that upper room. Holding the cup in His hands, He said, "This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." Matthew 26:28.


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## blazingthru (Aug 8, 2013)

Isn't it curious that Christ would say those words before His blood had been shed? He was commanding a memorial for an event which had not even happened yet! Why? Because it had to be introduced before His death in order to come under the New Covenant. Nothing could be added after His death. 

Now, let me come back to the story I started to tell at the beginning of the book. I had just finished preaching on the subject of the Sabbath in one of my evangelistic crusades. As I stepped off the platform to greet the people as they left, three young men blocked my way in the aisle. One of them addressed me in quite a loud voice - loud enough to cause about fifty people near the front of the auditorium to stop and listen. 

"Brother Joe," he said, "we were disappointed tonight with the way you put us back under th
e Old Covenant. Don't you realize that we are living under the New Covenant now, and should keep Sunday instead of the Sabbath?" 

Although most of the congregation were leaving the building, the group near the front gathered closer to hear all that the young men were saying. It was obvious that I would have to take the time to answer this trio's challenging question. As I suspected they turned out to be young seminarians in training at a local Bible college. Eagerly they held their Bibles in their hands and waited triumphantly for me to answer. 

Usually, I do not like to debate controversial matters in a public forum, for fear of stirring combative natures, but there seemed no way to avoid dealing with these ministerial students. Anyway, they had my path completely blocked, and the circle of listeners looked at me expectantly for some explanation. 

"Well, it seems as though you have studied the subject of the covenants quite deeply," I suggested. 

"Oh, yes," they affirmed, "we know all about the covenants." 

"Good," I replied. "You undoubtedly know when the Old Covenant was instituted." One of them spoke up quickly, "It was started at Mt. Sinai." 

"And how was it ratified?" I asked. Without a moment's hesitation one of them answered, "By the sprinkling of the blood of an ox." 

"Very good," I commented, "and how was the New Covenant ratified?" All three chorused the answer, "By the blood of Jesus on the cross." 

I commended the young men for their knowledge of the Scriptures and asked them to read me two verses out of their own Bibles - Hebrews 9:16, 17 and Galatians 3:15. They responded eagerly to the invitation, and read the verses, commenting on each one after reading. "We agree that the New Covenant did not go into effect until after Christ died, and nothing can be added or taken away after He ratified it on he cross," the spokesman for the group asserted. All three nodded their heads emphatically over this point. 

I said, "Now you must answer two more questions for me. Here's the first one, and you must think carefully to give me the correct answer: When did Sunday-keeping begin?" There was a moment of shocked silence, and then another, and another. The boys looked at each other, and then down at their feet, and then back at me. I gently prodded them for the answer, "Surely you can tell me the answer to this question. You have known all the others, and have answered correctly. When and why do you think people began keeping Sunday?" 

Finally, one of them said, "We keep Sunday in honor of the resurrection of Jesus." I said, "Then I must ask you my last question. How could Sundaykeeping be a part of the New Covenant? You just stated that nothing could be added after the death of Christ. He died on Friday and was resurrected on Sunday. If Sunday was added after Jesus died, it could never be a part of the New Covenant, could it?" 

The three young men shuffled their feet, looked helplessly around, and one of them said, "We'll study into that and talk to you later." Then they fled from that auditorium as fast as they could go. I can assure you, also, that they never returned to talk further about the covenants. 

The fact is that Sundaykeeping, even if it had started on the day of the resurrection, would have been three days too late to get into the New Covenant. Both Bible and history prove that Sunday was never observed by the apostolic church. It was added much, much later as a result of the gradual apostasy which developed in the early centuries of the church and which culminated in the pagan accommodation of Constantine in 330 A.D. 

Millions of modern church members regard Sunday as a sacred day which memorializes the resurrection of Christ. It is certainly true that Christ arose on the first day of the week, but nowhere in the Bible are we commanded to keep that day holy. Events such as the crucifixion and resurrection should mean much to every Christian, but not one intimation is given in the Bible for observing either Friday or Sunday. The only day ever commanded for weekly worship is the seventh day of the week - the same Sabbath Jesus kept during creation week and the one He will keep with His people throughout all eternity. Genesis 2:1-3; Isaiah 66:22, 23. 

The very strongest reason for rejecting Sunday worship is that it was not included in the New Covenant requirements which were ratified by the death of Jesus. If Christ had desired His resurrection to be memori- alized by Sundaykeeping, He could have introduced it on that same Thursday night of the Last Supper. Then it would have become a part of the New Covenant, along with the Communion service and foot-washing. Jesus did not hesitate to command the observance of His death, even though it had not taken place yet. Just as easily He could have commanded the observance of His resurrection, which was still future, in order that it might become a New Covenant requirement. But He did not! And no one else ever did either, until Paul's prophecy began to be fulfilled about an apostasy following his departure. Acts 20:29, 30. He spoke also of a falling away which would lead to the enthronement of Antichrist. 2 Thessalonians 2:3, 4. But true it is that no hint of any change of the law is given in the Scriptures. The unchangeable moral law was preserved in both Old and New Covenants as the perfect revelation of God's will.


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## blazingthru (Aug 8, 2013)

Ishmael and Isaac Represent Two Covenants

With this background, we are now prepared to examine Galatians 4. Many have been confused over the allegory Paul used to illustrate the Old and New Covenants. Here is the way he wrote about it: "For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a free-woman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children." Verses 22-25. 

Paul portrays Isaac and Ishmael, the two sons of Abraham, as representing the Old and New Covenants. He plainly shows that Hagar's son, Ishmael, symbolizes the Old Covenant, and Sarah's son, Isaac, is a type of the New Covenant. "Now we, brethren as Isaac was, are the children of promise. ... So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free." Verses 28-31. 

This is interesting. How do those sons of those two women represent the two covenants? Actually, they are a perfect illustration according to everything we have learned so far. God had promised Abraham a son by his wife Sarah, but because she was almost 90 years old, neither of them believed such a thing could happen. Sarah knew that her womb was dead and that she was long past the age for bearing children. So she suggested that her husband take Hagar, her handmaid, and have a child by her. It seemed the only way to rescue God from an impossible promise. In time, Abraham yielded to the face-saving device and had a child by Hagar. 

Here is an exact illustration of the Old Covenant principle of "we will do." Abraham tried to work it out in the flesh, according to human effort and planning. The old arrangement failed just as surely as the Old Covenant promises failed, because there was no dependence on divine power. God did not ever recognize Ishmael as the promised seed. 

When Isaac was born, it was a miracle. God actually created a new life out of a biologically barren womb. The physical impossibilities yielded to the supernatural, creative power of God. Isaac perfectly represents the principle of the New Covenant relationship based upon regeneration, a new-birth experience, which begets the life of the Son of God in all who believe. The natural, physical womb of Sarah was totally incapable of producing any fruit. In the same way, the natural, carnal body and mind of a sinner cannot bring forth the fruit of obedience. When God used His power to create a new life within Sarah, the impossible happened, and she bore a son. When God uses His power to create new life in the soul, the impossible happens again - a human being becomes spiritual and obedient. 

Isaac was not "born after the flesh," but "after the Spirit." Galatians 4:29. Because man is carnal and "weak in the flesh," he has no power to attain to the righteousness of the law. He, too, must be born after the Spirit. Every attempt to obey on the Old-Covenant basis of human effort will produce only children of bondage. The law must be written into the heart by the Holy Spirit and fulfilled by "Christ in you." 

This allegory of Hagar and Sarah clears up another very important point of truth. Those who are under the Old Covenant are the commandment breakers, and those under the New Covenant are the commandment keepers. It was only when Abraham disobeyed God by taking Hagar that he fulfilled the principle of the Old Covenant. When he trusted God to give him a son through Sarah, he was being obedient to God's will, and properly represents the New-Covenant Christians. Yet how often do modern interpreters get these facts confused! Like the three young preachers, they accuse law-keepers of being under the Old Covenant. The truth is exactly the opposite. The law is not really kept until it is written on the heart of the transformed believer. Then it becomes the mark of identification - the love symbol - for those who are born of the Spirit. Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15. John wrote, "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments." 1 John 5:3.


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## blazingthru (Aug 8, 2013)

True Circumcision is Not Physical

Have you ever wondered why God gave circumcision to Abraham as a sign of the Old Covenant? Doesn't that seem to be a rather crude way to represent such an important agreement? Think about it for a moment and it might begin to make a lot of sense. God gave Abraham the sign of circumcision to remind him of how he failed by trusting the flesh. All through the Scriptures, physical circumcision is related to dependence on the flesh. Paul wrote, "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." Philippians 3:3. 

Paul was comparing true circumcision with "that which is called circumcision." The cutting off of the flesh was not true circumcision at all: "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Romans 2:28, 29. Notice how Paul turns from the flesh to the Spirit. He says real circumcision happens to the heart, and it exalts what God does, and not man. It is the cutting off of the fleshly nature through conversion. The new birth is the true circumcision experience. 

The clearest explanation is found in Paul's epistle to the Colossians: "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ." Colossians 2:11. 

Here the spiritual work of Christ on the heart is called circumcision. It is done without hands, indicating that no human effort could perform this act. It is not cutting off the physical flesh, but cutting off the fleshly nature of sin through the indwelling of Christ. It will be available to all on exactly the same basis: "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:29. All who receive Christ become heirs of all the promises made to Abraham. Those experiencing true heart-circumcision constitute the real Jews. 

No longer can anyone boast of belonging to the right physical family. There is no more Jew or Gentile, male or female. Acceptance is based upon personal faith in Jesus Christ as Saviour. Neither can any man claim special favor for cutting off the physical foreskin of flesh. Those things were done by people who based everything on "we will do." They sought justification and salvation through works of the flesh. God's new plan through Christ is not of works, but of grace through faith. 

Does this mean that works are no longer important? Since the law cannot justify, should it be abolished by the believer? The doctrine of the covenants establishes beyond any doubt that the law is just as important under the New as under the Old. Instead of being graven on stone, it is written in the heart. Instead of being fulfilled by us, it is fulfilled by Jesus in us. Instead of keeping the law in order to be saved, we keep it because we are saved. The same works of obedience are there, but they are there for a different reason and from a different motive. 

Sometimes, without realizing it, we can begin to trust our traditional round of religious exercises far more than we ought. No merit system must clog the free channels of faith, love, and grace. Obedience in its proper position is important and necessary, but it must always be in that position - following grace and accompanied by love. 

In fact, it is possible to put ourselves back under the Old Covenant even today if we begin to trust our works to save us. Just as the saints of old could have received true circumcision by accepting spiritual regeneration, we may fall back under the Old Covenant by trusting the flesh to save us.


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## MrsHaseeb (Aug 8, 2013)

Blazingthru .. I'm not going to lie and tell you I have read everything you posted. Here is the thing, you have every right to disagree with everything I told you. I presented it to you and that's as far as I can go. No hard feelings  Love ya!


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## Laela (Aug 8, 2013)

I won't get into any back and forth on the Sabbath either but I do believe that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath.  

When Paul approached Cephas on the law matter, he had this to say:


> Galations 2:
> 
> 11 When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
> 12 For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.
> ...



There are Old Testament believers and there are New Testament believers, yet, the common denominator is Jesus Christ. He FULFILLED the Law, but He did not ABLOLISH it: 



> Matthew 5:17
> *Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose.*



Just sharing what's on my heart concerning this topic.


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## Nice & Wavy (Aug 8, 2013)

Laela said:


> I won't get into any back and forth on the Sabbath either but I do believe that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath.
> 
> When Paul approached Cephas on the law matter, he had this to say:
> 
> ...


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## blazingthru (Aug 9, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> Agreed. Although I disagree w/ the SDA view of Sabbath and Sunday worship, I can do so respectfully while laying out my own arguments. Hopefully my post hasn't been seen as trying to tear anyone down, but I wanted to provide insight as to why many Christians hold to worshiping on Sunday and its historical roots.



Well to be honest with you. I became a sabbath keeper without the SDA, they are not teaching some new stuff,  Just reading and reading and searching will reveal that the Sabbath was never changed. That people say it changed *with their mouth *but there is no actual text to say God's holy day has been changed. Why would anyone base their salvation on people's words and idea's instead of the actually text. Also we remember the resurrection through baptism.

Sure some text is taking out of context because we can't just read the bible.  We have to search it.  But I am not tying any way to upset or hurt you. But we must tell the truth. 

your Church claims that they changed the Laws and the Time, even boast of this claim Which is spoken about in *Daniel 7:25*.  This change was over a 300 year period. The worst part is people fighting for this day. When its a Day the Catholic Church made holy.  Not God our father, But the Church.

*The Catechism*
Recall the ceremony with which God made known His Law, containing the blessing of the seventh-day Sabbath, by which all humanity is to be judged. Contrast this with the unannounced, unnoticed anticlimax with which the church gradually adopted Sunday at the command of “Christian” emperors and Roman bishops. And these freely admit that they made the change from Sabbath to Sunday. 

*In the Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, we read:*

Q. Which is the Sabbath day?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
A. *We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea, (AD 336) transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday…*. 
Q. Why did the Catholic Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday, because Christ rose from the dead on a Sunday, and the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apostles on a Sunday.
Q. By what authority did the Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. *The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday by the plenitude of that divine power which Jesus Christ bestowed upon her! —Rev. Peter Geiermann, C.SS.R., (1946), p. 50.*

In Catholic Christian Instructed,

Q. Has the [Catholic] church power to make any alterations in the commandments of God?
A. ..*.Instead of the seventh day, and other festivals appointed by the old law, the church has prescribed the Sundays and holy days to be set apart for God’s worship; and these we are now obliged to keep in consequence of God’s commandment, instead of the ancient Sabbath. —Rt. Rev. Dr. Challoner, p. 211.*

In An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine,

Q. How prove you that the church hath power to command feasts and holy days?
A.* By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same church.*
Q. How prove you that?
A. *Because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the church’s power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin; and by not keeping the rest [of the feasts] by her commanded, they again deny, in fact, the same power. –Rev. Henry Tuberville, D.D. (R.C.), (1833), page 58.*

In A Doctrinal Catechism,

Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. *Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her. She could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority. –Rev. Stephen Keenan, (1851), p. 174.*

In the Catechism of the Council of Trent,

*The Church of God has thought it well to transfer the celebration and observance of the Sabbath to Sunday! –p 402, second revised edition (English), 1937.  (First published in 1566)*

In the Augsburg Confession,

*They [the Catholics] allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord’s day, contrary to the decalogue, as it appears; neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, they say, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the ten commandments. —Art. 28.*

God warned that a blasphemous power would “seek to change times and laws,” and the Catholic Church openly admits doing it, even boasts about it. In a sermon at the Council of Trent in 1562, the Archbishop of Reggia, Caspar del Fossa, claimed that the Catholic Church’s whole authority is based upon the fact that they changed the Sabbath to Sunday. Does this not fulfill the prophecies of Daniel and Paul?

For centuries millions of Christians have gathered to worship God on the first day of the week. Graciously He has accepted this worship. He has poured out His blessings upon Christian people as they have sought to serve Him. However, as one searches the Scriptures, he is forced to recognize that Sunday is not a day of God’s appointment… It has no foundation in Scripture, but has arisen entirely as a result of custom,” says Frank H. Yost, Ph.D. in The Early Christian Sabbath.

Let us ask the question again: Was the Sabbath changed from the seventh day of the week to the first? The Bible is clear: “And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy” (Genesis 2:3).  “Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy” (Exodus 20:11). If God intended for another day to become the Sabbath, He must have removed the blessing from the seventh day and placed it on the day which was to replace it. But when God bestows a blessing, it is forever. “…You, O Lord, have blessed it, and it will be blessed forever” (1 Chronicles 17:27). “I have received a command to bless; He has blessed, and I cannot change it” (Numbers 23:20). Your birthday, a memorial of your birth, can’t be changed, though you may celebrate it on a different day. Neither can the Sabbath, a memorial of creation (Exodus 20:11), be changed, though some may celebrate it on a different day.

God instructed Moses to construct the earthly sanctuary, all its furniture, and the ark according to “the pattern” he was shown. (Exodus 25:9, 40) The ark was called the “ark of the covenant” (Numbers 10:33, Deuteronomy 10:8, Hebrews 9:4), and the “ark of the testimony” (Exodus 25:22), because in it Moses placed the tablets of stone on which God wrote His Law. (Exodus 25:16, 31:18) John, in Revelation 11:19, describes the scene before him when “the temple of God was opened in Heaven.” John saw the ark of the covenant in the heavenly sanctuary. David wrote, “Your word, O Lord, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens” (Psalm 119:89). It is safe to assume that* God’s Law remains, contained within the ark of the covenant in the heavenly sanctuary.*

*When God says, “The seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God” (Exodus 20:10), that ends all controversy. We cannot change God’s Word for our own convenience. “But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve” (Joshua 24:15).
*

All of this information is every where, the Church do not hide what they have done, nor have they apologize.  It is up to us to decided what we will follow and believe. For on this we will be judge.  All Christians research what they are taught, or they are suppose to but don't. As long as it doesn't interfere with what they want to do.  How can they survive in heaven, they would hate it because they actually would not be able to follow the Laws it would be to foreign to them and restrictive. The Sabbath teaches us not to put our will first but Gods, its a day we don't think about ourselves, but our relationship with God and our care and concerns for others. it has so many benefits but most importantly it is blessed by God.


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## blazingthru (Aug 12, 2013)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> It seems that you both are finally in agreement, neither of you believe the other.



It was never a question as to whether she believes me or I her. The question is whether we follow the Sabbath or Sunday. Whether the Laws are relevant or not. I do not believe that her point was made. Nor does she believe mine.  I believe I have said it plain as the scriptures has spoken on it.  Anyone can do their own studies and make up their own mind.  But it should not be based on what I said or MrsHaseeb. Because neither one of us have a heaven or hell only God has the final say on what is what.  My opinion means nothing and I hope I have no shared my opinion.

www.afbookstore.com/showitem.aspx?ProductID=AF-RBBBS#tabs-1


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## divya (Sep 5, 2013)

Yes, I believe in keeping the Old Testament laws except for the sacrificial/ceremonial laws (which include festivals, new moons, sabbaths that are not weekly, etc) and the civil laws that applied to Israel at that time. I choose to do so because I believe the Scriptures teach us that God's laws are relevant to our lives today. 



Galadriel said:


> Agreed. Although I disagree w/ the SDA view of Sabbath and Sunday worship, I can do so respectfully while laying out my own arguments. Hopefully my post hasn't been seen as trying to tear anyone down, but I wanted to provide insight as to why many Christians hold to worshiping on Sunday and its historical roots.



The Sabbath is a Sabbatarian Christian view, not simply an SDA view. There are hundreds of Sabbath keeping Christian groups in the world who hold to worshiping on the 7th-day Sabbath and its historical roots as a memorial of creation.


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## SimplyBlessed (Sep 5, 2013)

Amour said:


> Anyone keep the Old Testament laws such as refraining from eating ports, shellfish, not working on the sabbath?
> 
> Why do you choose or choose not to do so? Is it a cop out to not follow the OT laws?




I try to follow the laws statues and commandments laid out in the OT

The bible say Jesus did not come to do away with the law but to fulfill the law therefore the laws are still to be placed

Jesus was an example of how they should have been followed . If Jesus followed them why shouldn't I?


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## blessed7777 (Sep 8, 2013)

What is right is not always popular and what is popular is not always right.”

blazingthru you speak nothing but the truth from the bible.  I follow God's ten commandments as well.. Not nine as most of the Christian population have no problem in doing.  Will following God's 10 assure my entrance into heaven?  Certainly not, but it is my duty to follow God's word to the best of my ability as the word instructs.

 However, I do not judge others on this matter  but I pray that their eyes will be opened to God's word.  I started my post off with that quote, to show that just because a majority believe in their  Sunday worship tradition, does not make it correct.  I was once a Sunday worshipper but the bible had the final say.   

The 7th day ( Saturday)  is the Sabbath.  Search the scriptures my friends... But before that pick up a calendar, as sometimes we forget that Sunday is the 1st day of the week.


God bless


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## Leigh (Sep 8, 2013)

Rom 15:4

For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.


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## Leigh (Sep 8, 2013)

1 Cor 10:11


Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.


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## Leigh (Sep 8, 2013)

Heb 10:4-11


For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
 Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said,
 “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;
 in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.
 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
as it is written of me in the scroll of the book. ’”
 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


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## Leigh (Sep 8, 2013)

Heb 8:7-13


For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.
 For he finds fault with them when he says:
 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,
and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
 and I will remember their sins no more.”
 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete.


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## Leigh (Sep 8, 2013)

Heb 8:13

In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


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## Leigh (Sep 8, 2013)

Heb 8:6

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.


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## Leigh (Sep 8, 2013)

Gal 5:4


You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.


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## Leigh (Sep 8, 2013)

Rom 3:20

For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.


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## Leigh (Sep 8, 2013)

Rom 15:4

For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.


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## Leigh (Sep 8, 2013)

Heb 2:13-15

But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,


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## Leigh (Sep 8, 2013)

Heb 10:9

He does away with the first in order to establish the second.


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## Leigh (Sep 8, 2013)

Rom 7:4

Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.


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## Leigh (Sep 8, 2013)

So basically, the bible itself says the Old Testament is written for our learning but when Grace comes the Law will pass away. When the New Testament comes in effect the Old Testament is null and void. When the new Will is written and goes into effect, the old Will is no longer in effect.

Jesus is the fulfillment of the law, and yes there are parallels between the old and New Testament. But get this, when the new Will or New Testament took effect it included everything from the Old Testament that we are to follow. But follow because of Grace. That's New Testament. We are no longer bound by the law. We are no longer under Old Testament law. We are under Grace.

Galatians 5:3-4
I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

That means, that if you choose to keep part of the law, you must keep the whole thing. And nobody was able to do that. 

This is straight scripture. What we think is of no import because Gods ways are higher than our ways. 

Rom 11:33-36
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
 “For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?”
 “Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?”
 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

But this is supported with Isaiah 55 as well. See the Old Testament was the schoolmaster that helps bring us to Christ.  Now that we are in Christ, we are to follow Christ, not law/circumcision/OT.


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## blazingthru (Sep 8, 2013)

Here is the thing.

Grace has always been here it is not a new thing. Genesis 6:8
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. 

fulfillment does not mean the end of something. Isaiah 42:21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness’ sake; He will magnify the law, and make it honorable. Jesus magnified the Law or expounded upon it. What we do not follow anymore is the ceremonial laws. What most folks do not understand is that God is Law, his kingdom is about Laws and Satan said we don't need them and we should not have to follow Laws, when our very existence relies on the Law. We have laws that govern our country. We follow those Laws are take the consequences. The only Law everyone seems to have  problem is the Sabbath. No other Law is more argue against but the Sabbath. 

He blotted out all of the shadows of things to come. The ordinances that had to do with the blood offerings, the meat and drink offerings, the seven special feast days, the entire old covenant system were all blotted out the moment Jesus died.

 The new covenant is not some new law nor even a change in the law of God, but it is the law of God written in the heart and in the mind.  Christ died to pay the penalty of sin. He lived to provide the power over sin in the life. When we come to Him and accept of His life and death in our behalf, He forgives us our past sins. But He does not stop there. He replaces our old life with His new life. He does not merely take the past and then leave us a spiritual vacuum. In the place of the life of sin, He writes His Laws, His character into our minds and into our hearts. By His law we are directed in our love to our God and to our fellow man. The law of God becomes our standard of living. It is more than creed or form. It is the direction of the life.  

this is Christ's covenant with Christians. It is made only with those whose sins are confessed and thus forgiven. The old life is buried with the Saviour who died and was buried to purchase our redemption. The new life is motivated by His indwelling power, directed by His commandments.

Jesus said, "If ye love Me, keep My commandments." We then keep His commandments not to be saved but as an evidence that all are saved through the blood of Christ and that He has given us a new life and a new heart.

*Psalms 51:10:* "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me." Paul said in 2 Corinthians 5:17, "If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature. 

*Revelation 22:14*
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments,[a] that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.


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## Leigh (Sep 8, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> Here is the thing.
> 
> Grace has always been here it is not a new thing. Genesis 6:8
> But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
> ...



God is Love. 

1 John 4:8
Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

John 1:15
( John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me. ’”) 

John 1:16
For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Thank you for pointing out that Jesus said to keep His commandments. He said that in the New Testament.  He didn't say to keep the law of Moses.  In fact, this is what's said about that:

Rom 7
Or do you not know, brothers —for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.
 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. (ESV)


Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress:but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. (KJV)

Rom 7 explains whether we are to follow the 10 commandments or New Testament. It is very clear. The entire chapter is devoted to this topic. It supports what I've shared.


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## divya (Sep 8, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> Here is the thing.
> 
> Grace has always been here it is not a new thing. Genesis 6:8
> But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
> ...



Amen. God is the same yesterday, today AND forever.


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## Leigh (Sep 8, 2013)

Rom 8:14-15 

For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” (ESV)  

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. (KJV)


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## Leigh (Sep 8, 2013)

Gal 5:1  

For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. (ESV)

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. (KJV)


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## Leigh (Sep 8, 2013)

Gal 5:3  

I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. (ESV)  

For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. (KJV)


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## Leigh (Sep 8, 2013)

Gal 5:4  

You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. (ESV)  

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (KJV)


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## Leigh (Sep 8, 2013)

1 Cor 13:9

For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. (ESV)

But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (KJV)


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## Leigh (Sep 8, 2013)

Heb 10: 8-10


Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.(KJV)

When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.(ESV)


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## Leigh (Sep 8, 2013)

There is a distinction between the law of Moses (10 commandments) and Jesus.

Heb 10:28-29
He that despised Moses 'law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Heb 11:39-40
And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


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## Leigh (Sep 8, 2013)

Heb 8:6-7

But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.


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## Leigh (Sep 8, 2013)

Heb 6:

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers


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## Leigh (Sep 8, 2013)

Heb 8:13

In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


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## Leigh (Sep 8, 2013)

divya said:


> Amen. God is the same yesterday, today AND forever.



According to God it is. He said the first was flawed so he provided a better one. I didn't say it God did.


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## MrsHaseeb (Sep 8, 2013)

Leigh said:


> According to God it is. He said the first was flawed so he provided a better one. I didn't say it God did.



Amen to this Leigh!


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## blazingthru (Sep 8, 2013)

Leigh said:


> Heb 8:13
> 
> In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.



Ceremonial Laws. All that you posted is once again the ceremonial Laws.


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## MrsHaseeb (Sep 8, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> Ceremonial Laws. All that you posted is once again the ceremonial Laws.



Please stop adding things to the Bible that's not there... The Bible does not tell us that only the ceremonial laws passed away. You are adding that so that it fits in line with what you already believe. The entire old covenant has been replaced by the new.


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## blazingthru (Sep 8, 2013)

Leigh said:


> There is a distinction between the law of Moses (10 commandments) and Jesus.
> 
> Heb 10:28-29
> He that despised Moses 'law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
> ...



The Law of Moses, interesting that you said that you know that they are two laws, one that Moses commanded and one God commandment, both from God but yet both different. One would come to an end. The other is for eternity.    What Moses wrote was placed on the outside of the ARK, it is the Ceremonial Laws, or Ordinances, which by the way, we still use from time to time. if you read them you would see that they do have some use, even today.
* Deuteronomy 31:24–26*
24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, 25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, 26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the *side of the ark* of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.  



What God wrote was placed on the inside the ARK,  it is a testimony by which He will judge.* Exodus 25:16 *
16 And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee. 

Because they ... had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers’ idols. Wherefore I gave them also *statutes* that were not good, and *judgments* whereby they should not live” (Ezekiel 20:24, 25). Observe carefully how the prophet identifies the Sabbath law, and then immediately says, “I gave them ALSO statutes that were not good.” Keep in mind that the Ten Commandments were called “holy, and just, and good” (Romans 7:12). Because of its curses and judgments against their continual disobedience, the law of Moses was “against” them and was “not good.

This is not THE SABBATH  command.  

Well I have already posted a reply to all of these statements you have made.  
I went to a funeral today of  a young boy sweet as pie, mischievous but we loved him, it was very heart broken, but he loved the Lord, his favorite commandment was the 5th Commandment. Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, but he looked at it differently. he said we get another life, That was the one thing I took from that. NO need to explain anymore. It was powerful that he said it. he was 11 years old.


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## blazingthru (Sep 8, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> Please stop adding things to the Bible that's not there... The Bible does not tell us that only the ceremonial laws passed away. You are adding that so that it fits in line with what you already believe. The entire old covenant has been replaced by the new.



Really, No that is correct the Ceremonial Laws were nailed to the cross they were against us, Not the commandments and this is my only comment to you, as we have already discussed this and I commented already that your scriptures were taken out of context.  In this we will not agree. Paul clearly says the Law was HOLY, Just and Good. So then that tells us that the Law is perfect, well what Law was not perfect, more study is needed to find the Law that was against us.  So no I did not add and would never try to make something fit what I believe. I would condemn my own-self, but I get what you did not say as well. 

Romans 7:12
New King James Version (NKJV)
12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.


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## Leigh (Sep 8, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> Ceremonial Laws. All that you posted is once again the ceremonial Laws.



????? SMH Not true.

Jeremiah 31:31

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts.



We are cautioned against adding to or taking away from the bible.

Revelations 22:18-19
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Deuteronomy 4:2
You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you.

This command is referenced several times throughout the bible.


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## Shimmie (Sep 8, 2013)

Here's an interesting article.   

*Are Old Testament Laws Still Binding on Christians?*

http://www.gci.org/law/otlaws


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## MrsHaseeb (Sep 8, 2013)

Shimmie said:


> Here's an interesting article.
> 
> Are Old Testament Laws Still Binding on Christians?
> 
> http://www.gci.org/law/otlaws



Thank you for posting Shimmie. A lot of truth in that article


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## MrsHaseeb (Sep 8, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> Really, No that is correct the Ceremonial Laws were nailed to the cross they were against us, Not the commandments and this is my only comment to you, as we have already discussed this and I commented already that your scriptures were taken out of context.  In this we will not agree. Paul clearly says the Law was HOLY, Just and Good. So then that tells us that the Law is perfect, well what Law was not perfect, more study is needed to find the Law that was against us.  So no I did not add and would never try to make something fit what I believe. I would condemn my own-self, but I get what you did not say as well.
> 
> Romans 7:12
> New King James Version (NKJV)
> 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.



Blazingthru I am simply telling you the truth. The reason we don't keep the 'law' in the New Covenant is because the law is written in our hearts. When Christ is in us and living through us we are righteous because of Him and His righteousness establishes the law. The Bible never says the law was the issue so yes it's holy. It was our sinful nature that was the issue. That was not solved by Christ coming to take away the ceremonial laws. It was solved by Christ coming to give us a new nature through His Spirit. No born again believer is disobeying God if they walk in the Spirit. That's what you're missing. As I stated before, you simply need to be born from above and receive Christ's nature in you. You're either under law or under grace. You can't mix the two. And if you're trying to keep the law, you will be judged by the entire law. If you'll be prepared for that judgment, then by all means, continue to keep the law. But don't judge others who choose to live by the Spirit as a new testament believer should.


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## SimplyBlessed (Sep 8, 2013)

I have a ?. In my post I pointed out that Jesus followed the laws statues and commandments laid out in the OT

Why shouldn't we? Wasn't Jesus' life an example of how we should live our lives

Once again like all things in the Bible, if there is doubt why not do it? 

It can't hurt...right? 

But instead it seems the majority never is on the same page and justify the opposite? Not downing anybody but idk....just had to get that off my chest

Hopefully I'm making sense


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## MrsHaseeb (Sep 9, 2013)

SimplyBlessed said:


> I have a ?. In my post I pointed out that Jesus followed the laws statues and commandments laid out in the OT
> 
> Why shouldn't we? Wasn't Jesus' life an example of how we should live our lives
> 
> ...



Hi SimplyBlessed. The reason Jesus followed the old Testament law is because he was born under the law. He was the Christ, the fulfillment of the OT was in Him. The new testament could not come into effect until Jesus Christ died.

Hebrews 9:14-17 KJV
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? [15] And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. [16] For where a testament is , there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. [17] For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Christ had to die before there could be a new covenant. He was the Word made flesh and was sinless so He could keep the law. We cannot. We need a nature change through the Holy Spirit. A believer who has the Holy Spirit does not need OT laws.


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## Nice & Wavy (Sep 9, 2013)

Shimmie said:


> Here's an interesting article.
> 
> *Are Old Testament Laws Still Binding on Christians?*
> 
> http://www.gci.org/law/otlaws


You deserve a big ole !!!!!

This is one of the best letters that I have read regarding this matter...ever.

The way it was explained, helped me to understand something....

Great information!!!

Thank you so much!


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## MrsHaseeb (Sep 9, 2013)

Nice & Wavy said:


> You deserve a big ole !!!!!
> 
> This is one of the best letters that I have read regarding this matter...ever.
> 
> ...



Lol Nice & Wavy. Yes she does!!! I enjoyed reading the website.


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## southerncharm (Sep 9, 2013)

SimplyBlessed said:


> I try to follow the laws statues and commandments laid out in the OT
> 
> The bible say Jesus did not come to do away with the law but to fulfill the law therefore the laws are still to be placed
> 
> Jesus was an example of how they should have been followed . If Jesus followed them why shouldn't I?


 
you are so right, especially when it comes to the feast days:

Passover- Monday march 25, 2013 sundown and ends: Tues, march 26, 2013 sundown

feast of unleavened bread- begins1st night) tues march 26, 2013 @ sundown and ends : wed, march 27,2013 @ sundown

feast of unleavened bread- (7th night) begins : mon, april 1,2013 @ sundown and ends: tues, april 2, 2013 @ sundown

Pentecost- begins: SAT, MAY 18, 2013 @ sundown and ends MAY 19, 
2013 @ sundown

the memorial of the blowing of the trumpets-
begins: thurs, sept 5, 2013 sundown and ends: sun, sept 6 2013, @ sundown

the day of atonement-
begins: sat, sept 14, 2013 @ sundown and ends: sun sept 15, 2013 @ sundown

feast of tabernacles (1st night)-
begins: thur  sept 19, [email protected] sundown and ends: fri, sept 20, 2013 @ sundown

the 8th day, that great day of the feast-
begins: thur, sept 26, 2013 @ sundown and ends: fri, sept 27, 2013 @ sundown


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## CoilyFields (Sep 9, 2013)

Shimmie said:


> Here's an interesting article.
> 
> *Are Old Testament Laws Still Binding on Christians?*
> 
> http://www.gci.org/law/otlaws


 
" Instead, the new has replaced the old (Hebrews 10:9), and we focus on the spirit rather than the letter. Of course, it is true that *in some cases the proper spirit will cause us to keep the letter*, *but in other cases it is not true.*
Consider the spirit of adultery, for example. If we avoid lust, then we will also (without any need for a written law) avoid physical acts of adultery. The letter of this law is still valid. If we do not covet, then we will (without any need for a written law) not steal. This law is also valid in the letter. If we are not angry at our brother, we will (without any need for a written law) not murder. Again, the letter is valid. Keeping the spirit of the law has thwarted these sins at their very source."

The above is a quote from Shimmie 's article. 

The bolded is how I think about the Sabbath. Is the significance in the actual day? Saturday? Or is it in the purpose of a day, to rest? Keeping the Sabbath Holy...is that becuase Saturday in and of itself has value (is holy) or is the command to set apart a day for specific rest and reverance of God? I believe that the intent of the command was for us to purpose in our hearts to cease from working (for our own physical good) and  to use that time to acknowledge God. So weather you do that on Saturday, Sunday, or Tuesday...its not the actual day of the week that matters...its the intent of the heart.


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## Rainbow Dash (Sep 9, 2013)

CoilyFields said:


> " Instead, the new has replaced the old (Hebrews 10:9), and we focus on the spirit rather than the letter. Of course, it is true that in some cases the proper spirit will cause us to keep the letter, but in other cases it is not true.
> Consider the spirit of adultery, for example. If we avoid lust, then we will also (without any need for a written law) avoid physical acts of adultery. The letter of this law is still valid. If we do not covet, then we will (without any need for a written law) not steal. This law is also valid in the letter. If we are not angry at our brother, we will (without any need for a written law) not murder. Again, the letter is valid. Keeping the spirit of the law has thwarted these sins at their very source."
> 
> The above is a quote from @Shimmie 's article.
> ...


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Sep 9, 2013)

Health&hair28, so nice to see you posting.


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## Kurlee (Sep 9, 2013)

I honestly see both sides of the debate. It's Mrs.Haseeb and Shimmie make a very convincing and clear case, but on the other side, if we are to keep old testament laws, why is the Sabbath and meats, the only ones people choose to observe?  What about all the other ones? That's where it gets sticky and folks are butting heads. Either it's changed or it's not and if it is, keep all, not just some.


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## southerncharm (Sep 9, 2013)

southerncharm said:


> you are so right, especially when it comes to the feast days:
> 
> Passover- Monday march 25, 2013 @sundown and ends: Tues, march 26, 2013 @sundown
> 
> ...


 
wow, I wonder how that sad face made it  there , I don't remember putting it there  .


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## Nice & Wavy (Sep 9, 2013)

southerncharm said:


> wow, I wonder how that sad face made it  there , I don't remember putting it there  .


I was reading right after you posted and it was there....


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## Rainbow Dash (Sep 9, 2013)

Kurlee said:


> I honestly see both sides of the debate. It's Mrs.Haseeb and Shimmie make a very convincing and clear case, but on the other side, if we are to keep old testament laws, why is the Sabbath and meats, the only ones people choose to observe? What about all the other ones? That's where it gets sticky and folks are butting heads. Either it's changed or it's not and if it is, keep all, not just some.


 
The law is not changed, but we are to allow it to be written in our hearts, and it will manifest outwardly. How can we say I am keeping the law in my heart but outwardly I'm doing the opposite?

The Commandments are the terms of the marriage covenant between the Father and His people. When they were given it was a marriage. 
The Messiah is the sacrifice therefore, no longer requiring a daily or yearly sacrifice for sin. He took care of the priesthood and the sacrifice. But the Commandments stand forever. Even in the new Jerusalem they will be kept. Jeremiah 31 speaks of His covenant/commandments being written in our hearts but manifested outwardly. If we say the law is done away with, then we have to dismiss murder, homosexuality, adultery, stealing, graven images, etc. Just because the Sabbath does not go along with our tradition, does not mean it is to be dismissed. 

The Commandments were written with the finger of the Father.


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## MrsHaseeb (Sep 9, 2013)

southerncharm said:


> you are so right, especially when it comes to the feast days:
> 
> Passover- Monday march 25, 2013 sundown and ends: Tues, march 26, 2013 sundown
> 
> ...



SimplyBlessed, there is nothing wrong with keeping the feasts. They are good. But they were only the shadow of what was to come, Christ is the substance. Trying to keep OT law is basically worshipping the shadow when we need to be worshipping the person, which is Christ.


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## blazingthru (Sep 9, 2013)

Kurlee said:


> I honestly see both sides of the debate. It's Mrs.Haseeb and Shimmie make a very convincing and clear case, but on the other side, *if we are to keep old testament laws, why is the Sabbath and meats, the only ones people choose to observe?  What about all the other ones? That's where it gets sticky and folks are butting heads. Either it's changed or it's not and if it is, keep all, not just some*.



I agree, though I see the the Sabbath and the meats are thrown out and the other commandments kept.  Not to open the discussion any further, not on my part anyway, if we offend in any area of the Law we have broken them all. You are right in this. 

I don't understand this theory about following the Laws in the spirit.  I think its sinful.  or keeping the Laws spiritual doesn't sound right to me. Sounds like something Satan has once again used to fool the faithful, but, that means I have to review this. Satan counterfeits everything that God sets in place, with the first lie, You shall not die. So now folks think the Sabbath has no value, Yet God spoke the Words, Wrote the Words, called them the Testimony, placed them in the ark and will use the testimony to judge the world so I don't see how its no longer relevant.  But the fact that he will use it to judge the world should have hearts trembling and looking further into this.


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## divya (Sep 9, 2013)

Leigh said:


> According to God it is. He said the first was flawed so he provided a better one. I didn't say it God did.



Yes, God did state that AND the following: 

*Matthew 5:18-19*- _18 For assuredly, I say to you, *till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.*19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven._

Heaven and earth have not passed away, thus the law is still binding.


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## Shimmie (Sep 9, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> I agree, though I see the the Sabbath and the meats are thrown out and the other commandments kept.  Not to open the discussion any further, not on my part anyway, if we offend in any area of the Law we have broken them all. You are right in this.
> 
> *I don't understand this theory about following the Laws in the spirit*.
> 
> I think its sinful.  or keeping the Laws spiritual doesn't sound right to me. Sounds like something Satan has once again used to fool the faithful, but, that means I have to review this. Satan counterfeits everything that God sets in place, with the first lie, You shall not die. So now folks think the Sabbath has no value, Yet God spoke the Words, Wrote the Words, called them the Testimony, placed them in the ark and will use the testimony to judge the world so I don't see how its no longer relevant.  But the fact that he will use it to judge the world should have hearts trembling and looking further into this.



Let's see if I can break this down... 

The 'Spirit' is the heart of man.  God's plan was to have His laws written within our hearts, for it is from our hearts that we 'move' upon.   Jesus is the Law, the Eternal Law which came to redeem us.    

When we accepted Jesus into our hearts, His law became written within.    _It is in Him that we move and live and have our being. _

The former acts of keeping the laws were 'outward' shadows which could not save us eternally.  They were not within our hearts.  Yet now through Jesus, the 'law' lives forever, Spirit, Soul and Body.    

From the abundance of our hearts (the Spirit), the soul (the mind) and the body follows, as the heart follows Jesus....the Eternal Law. 

I hope this is making sense the way that I wrote it.  

As for the Sabbath day...

Something that has always been on my heart is that the Sabbath should be 'everyday.'     Really, it should.    

Too many go to Church on Sunday or Saturday and think that's it... the rest of the week is folly.  Each day should be regarded as a day as unto the Lord.    Take a Sabbath break during each day, that is devoted just to Jesus and no one, nothing else, just God alone.    A time where your heart is devoted truly to Him and no other distractions are allowed to get in.  

It truly does not matter to God one bit which day the Sabbath is celebrated.  God is not ritual, He is not bondage, God is not a jailer.   He indeed deserves a day of Honour and respect where we gather together as the Body to worship as one.   

I would like to think that Both Saturday and Sunday are excellent for 'whosoever will', choose one or the other to worship.   For this shuts down and begins the entire weekend and new week ahead that has been reserved for God alone.     Just think how much we can accomplish in the Body of Christ, by coming together in agreement on this.   

The Saturday worshipers 'cover' the Sunday worshipers and the Sunday worshipers cover the Saturday worshipers.     

And I am sooooooooooo SERIOUS about this.  This of the 'Stone Wall' that we are building to guard and protect each other, rather than waste precious life and time, in disagreement about it.    

Listen the the strength calling out:   

*Saturday Family to the Sunday Family: *_

"I got you... I got your backs'.  Go ahead and be blessed with your services, we have you under cover and nothing will get past us. We got your back. _

*Sunday Family to the Saturday Family:  *

_We got you...ain't no weapon big enough that can prosper against you.   You go ahead and worship, be blessed in your Sabbath.   The enemy has to get past us to get to you and that is not happening."   We have your backs and we love and honour you as  our brothers and sisters.  _

Can anyone see the beauty in this?  It's not about the day, it is about the heart, the true and loving spirit of coming together as one and not allowing satan to have a foothold in our love for another.   

God does not care which day it is.  He truly doesn't.  He cares more about the love we have for each other and somehow, we have to laid it aside about the days which are lost in disagreements, which can never be regained.

I'll be first...cause I am guilty as can be.   I'll be first to say, "I'm laying it aside', disabling my pride.   Sabbath should be 'everyday'.

In Jesus' name, Amen and Amen.


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## divya (Sep 9, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> Please stop adding things to the Bible that's not there... The Bible does not tell us that only the ceremonial laws passed away. You are adding that so that it fits in line with what you already believe. The entire old covenant has been replaced by the new.



That is in no way an addition to the Bible. That Bible states that the sacrificial/ceremonial laws alone (the ordinances written by Moses) were nailed to the cross.



> Colossians 2:14-16 - _14 Blotting out *the handwriting of ordinances* that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
> 
> 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
> 
> 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:_



The Ten Commandments were first written on tablets of stone by the finger of God Himself. (Deuteronomy 5:22)

The handwriting of ordinances - which had specifics regarding meat, drink, holydays, new moons and non-weekly sabbaths (falling on different days, connected with the feasts) - were handwritten by Moses.  Those laws are separate from the Ten Commandments, which are also referred to as the royal law.  



> 2 Chronicles 33:8
> _Neither will I any more remove the foot of Israel from out of the land which I have appointed for your fathers; so that they will take heed to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes *and the ordinances by the hand of Moses.*_
> 
> Ex. 24:4-5 _*And Moses wrote* all the words of the Lord. And he rose early in the morning, and built an altar at the foot of the mountain, and twelve pillars according to the twelve tribes of Israel. 5 Then he sent young men of the children of Israel, who offered *burnt offerings and sacrificed* peace offerings of oxen to the Lord. _
> ...


*

Again, the ordinances were handwritten by Moses alone and separate from the Ten Commandments which were written by the finger of God. The ordinances contain instruction regarding what is spoken of in Colossians 2:14-16, which were stated to be nailed to the cross.

Kurlee - perhaps this post can help with the distinction between laws. The Old Testament has different types of laws within it and with careful reading one can understand what is being referred to later on.*


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## divya (Sep 9, 2013)

Leigh said:


> Gal 5:4
> 
> You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.





Leigh said:


> Rom 3:20
> 
> For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.



The above verses do not do away with the law, but simply state that we are not justified by the law. Christ alone JUSTIFIES. 

That is why Romans makes clear: 



> Romans 3:31 - *Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.*



So as stated above, the law is not void. The verses in Gal and Romans simply clarifies what the law does and does not do versus what Christ does for us. 



> Romans 3:19-20 - Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. *Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.*



The law points out sin, so that we understand just what is sin in the eyes of God (stealing, lying, Sabbath breaking, coveting etc). But we are justified by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.* Eph 2:8-9*





Leigh said:


> Heb 2:13-15
> 
> But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by *abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances,* that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,




The ordinances were written by Moses and contained within the book of Moses. Such laws are separate from the Ten Commandment laws, which were written by the finger of God.


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## Leigh (Sep 9, 2013)

divya said:


> Yes, God did state that AND the following:
> 
> Matthew 5:18-19- 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
> 
> Heaven and earth have not passed away, thus the law is still binding.



Yes, and Jesus fulfilled the law. The New Testament, which is the new Will, went into effect upon his death.  

I've provided scripture after scripture going in the Old Testament when God said He was going to create a new covenant because the one that Moses wrote after coming out of Egypt was flawed.

Rom 7 says the old covenant, the Old Testament, the old will was done away with.  Jesus didn't write a codicil to the OT. No, he created a new one, a new will, and a new way. Like any will, some of what was in the old will was transferred over, however, He added so much more and yes, He changed some directives. 

The law was based on Flesh. It was based on self reliance. Jesus came and said nuh uhn, no man cometh to the Father except by me. He is the propitiation for our sins, and thereby we are saved by grace. We do nothing to obtain righteousness. We are righteous because He is righteous and we are in Him.

Total dependence on God is what's called for.  He loves us so much He gave his Son as a blood offering to once and for all save us.

So yes, the base of the Ten Commandments are in the New Testament. Yes, we follow them, but not because they were in the Old Testament. Absolutely not. We follow them because the new will is in effect and they are in their along with many more. There are no longer Ten Commandments as in the Old Testament. There are many commandments. 

It is so explicit throughout the New Testament that the Old was done away with. No where do I read that only a few rituals were obsolete. I read the entire covenant is obsolete. I read it is for our learning. It provides great examples and encouragement.

There is a difference between looking in the Old Testament to get an idea of how to do a fast and intentionally looking in the Old Testament to follow the 10 commandments.  God says don't do this.  I provided the scripture above.

Jesus said a new commandment I give you.... He also said that you've heard of old do not murder...but He says whoever is angry with his brother is...

Who creates a new will but reads from a portion of the old will? Even when that portion is the same as in the new will, the new will is what's read.  The new will is what's gone by.


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## Leigh (Sep 9, 2013)

divya said:


> That is in no way an addition to the Bible. That Bible states that the sacrificial/ceremonial laws alone (the ordinances written by Moses) were nailed to the cross.
> 
> The Ten Commandments were first written on tablets of stone by the finger of God Himself. (Deuteronomy 5:22)
> 
> ...



Will you please provide the scripture that says the sacrificial laws alone were nailed to the cross? 

I read that the old agreement which encompassed more than just sacrificial/ceremonial laws was done away with and a new agreement is in effect.


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## Leigh (Sep 9, 2013)

2 Cor 3:1-11

Chapter 3
Ministers of the New Covenant
 Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some do, letters of recommendation to you, or from you? You yourselves are our letter of recommendation, written on our hearts, to be known and read by all. And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
 Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses 'face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.


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## Rainbow Dash (Sep 9, 2013)

The Sabbath day commanded by the Father cannot be everyday. He only commanded the 7th day. If we are to keep the Sabbath everyday, no one will be able to work. 

*Exodus 20:8-11
*Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
　
*Matthew 5:17-19 

*Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 *Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.*

*1 John 3:4
*Whosoever committeth *sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.*

_*1 John 5:2-3*
_By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
_ 
*Revelation 22:14 *
_Blessed are they that *do* his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


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## Rainbow Dash (Sep 9, 2013)

*Matthew 7:22-23*
"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23"*And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, You who practice Lawlessness.'*

*Lawlessness is the transgression of the law, violation of the law, having contempt for the law.* 

*1 John 3:4*
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

The Law stands and we are to live by it. The 10 are the snapshot of the the terms of the covenant. Written on our hearts if we allow it, manifested in our lives by our obedience to the Father's Commands. 


*Matthew 15:3* The Messiah questions the Pharisees on keeping the precepts of men over the Commandments of God. 
"But he answered and said unto them,Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?"

*Matthew 15:8-9* "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with _their_ lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 but in vain they do worship me, teaching _for_ doctrines the commandments of men."


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## divya (Sep 9, 2013)

Leigh said:


> Will you please provide the scripture that says the sacrificial laws alone were nailed to the cross?
> 
> I read that the old agreement which encompassed more than just sacrificial/ceremonial laws was done away with and a new agreement is in effect.



The Scriptures are provided. The ordinances ARE simply another term used for the sacrificial/ceremonial laws that were written by the hand of Moses. If you look at the Old testament, what group of ordinances contain directives regarding meat, drink, new moons, sabbaths, and holy days in one? Those ordinances written by Moses.

You cannot find the combination of those in the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments are not the handwritten ordinances.


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## divya (Sep 9, 2013)

Leigh said:


> Yes, and Jesus fulfilled the law. The New Testament, which is the new Will, went into effect upon his death.
> 
> I've provided scripture after scripture going in the Old Testament when God said He was going to create a new covenant because the one that Moses wrote after coming out of Egypt was flawed.
> 
> ...



That is not what the Scriptures state. 

Matthew 5:18-19 states:
*For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.*19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Heaven and earth have not yet passed away, so all is not fulfilled. So as the Scripture states, no part of the law has yet passed away.

No one is stating that we are not saved by grace, we are.


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## Shimmie (Sep 9, 2013)

Health&hair28 said:


> The Sabbath day commanded by the Father cannot be everyday. He only commanded the 7th day. If we are to keep the Sabbath everyday, no one will be able to work.
> 
> 
> *Exodus 20:8-11
> ...



  Hi Health&hair28 ... Welcome back.  

I'm speaking from the matter of the heart, that the Sabbath should be kept each day...in our hearts.   

Indeed physically it cannot be kept due to 'Life's responsibilities'.  However, it can still be kept within our hearts.    

Saturday and Sunday should not matter and God's Word clearly tells us to not waste time disputing over Sabbaths....


*Colossians 2:10-23
King James Version (KJV)*

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

*16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:*

*17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.*

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshiping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

*  20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

21 Touch not; taste not; handle not;

22 Which all are to perish with the using; after the commandments and doctrines of men?

*
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

-------------

When do we stop 'beguiling' one another?   It's only a day / 24 hours and so not worth the dividing of our hearts towards one another.   

It's just a day and because we are now 'One in Jesus' ... it does not matter to God which day one considers as worship. 

For those who worship on Saturday.... Hey... I got you!  I've got your back.  We are still 'One' in Christ Jesus.   You are still my Sisters and Brothers in Christ.  

Those on Sunday.... Monday....Tuesday.......Wednesday...Thursday, Friday...  Hey... I'm here and I've got your back.    We truly cannot afford to miss anyday without it being dedicated unto the Lord.   

Jesus is not Lord to us only one day of the week.   Halleluijah for that!    Glory for His Mercies upon us.     Jesus is Lord Every Single Day of our lives and unto Him is each day given from our hearts to be glorified...

Loving Us Forever ...

In Jesus' Name, Amen.   

"No matter the day... "I Got You".........Covered in Love.  :heart2:


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## Rainbow Dash (Sep 9, 2013)

Hi, Shimmie, I'm not judging, only posting what the Word states. I follow the words of the one who is coming back to save. I believe in accepting the truth even when it comes against traditions. The Sabbath is not authorized by the scriptures to be changed. 

Paul became all things to all man, so people use Paul to disregard the words of the Father and the son. Paul cannot save. 

He even agrees that we must obey, in this instance.

Romans 2:13
"for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified"


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## MrsHaseeb (Sep 9, 2013)

Health&hair28 said:


> Hi, Shimmie, I'm not judging, only posting what the Word states. I follow the words of the one who is coming back to save. I believe in accepting the truth even when it comes against traditions. The Sabbath is not authorized by the scriptures to be changed.
> 
> Paul became all things to all man, so people use Paul to disregard the words of the Father and the son. Paul cannot save.
> 
> ...



There was never a commandment for new testament believers to keep a Sabbath. Show me in the new testament if it is. Read Acts 15 and see what Peter said regarding the Gentile believers. Law puts a yoke on a person and the Holy Ghost never commanded them to keep a Sabbath or eat a certain diet to be saved. The Sabbath, as stated in Colossians was a shadow. of what was to come, which is Christ. Sabbath was not made to be 'worshipped' it was made to provide rest for the people. Now I see people who think 'going to church' on the Sabbath (which is impossible since the church consists of Spirit filled believers and you can't go to something that you are) sets you apart. The Sabbath was about rest for the people of Israel but today our rest in Christ, through the Holy Spirit. The problem I see with law keeping is that people are worshipping the shadow and not the substance, Jesus Christ. It is basically idolatry of the law. Worship is in Spirit and in truth. An atheist can keep laws. Jesus is looking for those who are born again and bear his nature. Only the fleshly nature needs laws to obey the Lord. A person born again and following Jesus will effortlessly keep the law if they walk in the Spirit. All law keeping does us make people have pride in human effort. When salvation is received by grace through faith Christ does a work, changing our nature, so that will walk in the good works prepared for us by nature. This way, no man can boast. This is why 'doing' laws is pointless. We are to be children of Abraham who had righteousness imputed to him by faith. The law was given to conclude all under sin because we cant keep it and so that we would go to Jesus and be saved. The law was never the problem, our nature was. This is why we must be born from above. If you're prepared to be judged by the entire law, then follow it by all means. If you're not, get to Jesus and have a nature change so that his righteousness will establish the law in you.

I have to be honest that I'm disturbed by all the people returning to the bondage of the law.


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## Rainbow Dash (Sep 9, 2013)

First, the law is not bondage.

*Psalms 119:42* "Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your law is truth."

*Psalms 19:7* "The law of the LORD is perfect, refreshing the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple."

As far as *Act 15* the instructions also included....*Acts 15:20* "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

But He makes it clear the Commandments stand and they include the Sabbath (4th Commandment), written by the finger of the Father. 

*Matthew 5:17-19 

*Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 *Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.*


*Revelation 22:14*

"Blessed _are_ they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."


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## MrsHaseeb (Sep 9, 2013)

Health&hair28 said:


> First, the law is not bondage.
> 
> Psalms 119:42 "Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your law is truth."
> 
> ...



I didn't call the law bondage, the Bible does. It's bondage because our nature can't keep it. We need a new nature by being born from above.

Galatians 5:1-9 KJV
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. [2] Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. [3] For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. [4] Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. [5] For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. [6] For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. [7] Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? [8] This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. [9] A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.


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## MrsHaseeb (Sep 9, 2013)

Health&hair28 said:


> First, the law is not bondage.
> 
> Psalms 119:42 "Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your law is truth."
> 
> ...



Keeping law is again called a yoke in the verses below. Look how little Peter actually told the Gentile believers ... Why did he do that? Because they had received the Holy Spirit and walking in the Spirit would rid them of the need for laws.

Acts 15:1-11, 19-21 KJV
And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said , Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. [2] When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. [3] And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. [4] And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. [5] But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. [6] And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. [7] And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. [8] And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; [9] And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. [10] Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? [11] But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. [19] Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: [20] But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. [21] For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.


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## Rainbow Dash (Sep 9, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> Keeping law is again called a yoke in the verses below. Look how little Peter actually told the Gentile believers ... Why dis he do that? Because they had received the Holy Spirit and walking in the Spirit would rid them of the need for laws.
> 
> Acts 15:1-11, 19-21 KJV
> And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said , Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. [2] When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. [3] And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. [4] And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. [5] But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. [6] And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. [7] And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. [8] And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; [9] And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. [10] Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? [11] But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. [19] Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: [20] But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. [21] For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.


 
Notice that Peter states, that the law, books of written by Moses are read every Sabbath.  This scripture does not do away with keeping the Commandments. Paul calls it bondage but David calls it a delight, truth, etc. I follow the one who died and in whom is salvation. His words are clear. 

Psalm 119:

_151 Thou art near, O Yah; and all thy commandments are truth.
_
_171 My lips shall utter praise, when thou hast taught me thy statutes.
_
_172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.
_
_173 Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts._
_
174 I have longed for thy salvation, O YAH; and thy law is my delight._


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## MrsHaseeb (Sep 9, 2013)

Health&hair28 said:


> Notice that Peter states, that the law, books of written by Moses are read every Sabbath.  This scripture does not do away with keeping the Commandments. Paul calls it bondage but David calls it a delight, truth, etc. I follow the one who died and in whom is salvation. His words are clear.
> 
> Psalm 119:
> 
> ...



Health&hair28.... The reason Peter said that is because there were Jews still practicing Judaism. The Christians were being kicked out of the synagogues. It wasn't the Christians going to the Synagogue hearing the law on the Sabbath. They met in homes, sometime daily. I'm to see a trend putting Paul against Jesus among professed Christians. The reason people go to the law is because they have somehow fallen from grace. Jesus Christ brought grace. You have a great day.


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## Rainbow Dash (Sep 9, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> Health&hair28.... The reason Peter said that is because there were Jews still practicing Judaism. The Christians were being kicked out of the synagogues. It wasn't the Christians going to the Synagogue hearing the law on the Sabbath. They met in homes, sometime daily. I'm to see a trend putting Paul against Jesus among professed Christians. The reason people go to the law is because they have somehow fallen from grace. Jesus Christ brought grace. You have a great day.


 

Ma'am how have we fallen from grace by being obedient to the Commandments of God? Did not the Savior speak on teaching others to break the Commandments? Who is saving you? 

*1 John 3:4*
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

There is no need for ill feelings or posting passive aggressive scriptures in RT. These discussions can help us grow and learn His truth.  

You have a good one too.


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## MrsHaseeb (Sep 9, 2013)

Health&hair28 said:


> Ma'am how have we fallen from grace by being obedient to the Commandments of God? Did not the Savior speak on teaching others to break the Commandments? Who is saving you?
> 
> 1 John 3:4
> Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
> ...



I'd never be passive aggressive. I'm pretty open for discussion with anyone. I simply see that something about your beliefs has changed from the old posts I used to read therefore I decided not to comment further. I'd never want you or any other lady here to feel that I have ill feelings at all 

I worship Jesus the Christ, the fulfilling of the law, which was simply a shadow of the person. I have been saved by grace through faith.


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## Leigh (Sep 9, 2013)

divya said:


> The Scriptures are provided. The ordinances ARE simply another term used for the sacrificial/ceremonial laws that were written by the hand of Moses. If you look at the Old testament, what group of ordinances contain directives regarding meat, drink, new moons, sabbaths, and holy days in one? Those ordinances written by Moses.
> 
> You cannot find the combination of those in the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments are not the handwritten ordinances.



--------Where?


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## Shimmie (Sep 9, 2013)

Health&hair28 said:


> Hi, Shimmie, I'm not judging, only posting what the Word states. I follow the words of the one who is coming back to save. I believe in accepting the truth even when it comes against traditions. The Sabbath is not authorized by the scriptures to be changed.
> 
> Paul became all things to all man, so people use Paul to disregard the words of the Father and the son. Paul cannot save.
> 
> ...



Health&hair28...

  I know you're not judging.   We both know of each other a little better and you have one of the most loving and dedicated hearts and I know that God is well pleased when He looks down and smile upon you and.... with great favour.... Great favour.

So I know that you are not judging.  This is your faith and it where you stand.  And know this for sure, whether we are Saturday or Sunday... I've got you....because you are indeed my sister in prayer and in our faith in Jesus.  

Love to Hubby and the children.  Much love.


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## Leigh (Sep 9, 2013)

divya said:


> That is not what the Scriptures state.
> 
> Matthew 5:18-19 states:
> *For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.*19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
> ...



Yes it is.

Rom 7:4-6
Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Rom 8:3

For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


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## Kurlee (Sep 10, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> Health&hair28.... *The reason Peter said that is because there were Jews still practicing Judaism.* The Christians were being kicked out of the synagogues. It wasn't the Christians going to the Synagogue hearing the law on the Sabbath. They met in homes, sometime daily. I'm to see a trend putting Paul against Jesus among professed Christians. The reason people go to the law is because they have somehow fallen from grace. Jesus Christ brought grace. You have a great day.



At bolded !!!!!!!!!


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