# Are We Headed to a Peace Treaty Between Israel and Palestine?



## metamorfhosis (Mar 7, 2009)

The US expressed an "inescapable" movement to a Palestinian state this week. Hillary Clinton claims that there will be a Palestinian state, Jerusalem will be its capital, and there is no time to waste. 

Any thoughts? 

References: 

'Inescapable' movement to Palestinian state

US:Clinton: There will be a Palestinian state, Jerusalem will be its capital '


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 7, 2009)

We may have "quiet" in the middle east but we will never have a true peace there until Jesus comes back.


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## Almaz (Mar 7, 2009)

Well someone who has lived half of their life in Israel it is not so easy as Jesus coming back. Remember there were issues going on there AT the time of Jesus. The political dichotomy has so many layers. The Palestinians have declared Statehood numerous times. There have been rights and wrongs on both sides. But the Arab States use the Palis as a ploy and the Palis in charge use their own people to keep getting sympathy from the World Body ( Which is still very Anti-semetic)

I just wish it would end. I have lost several relatives to this madness and I have seen it up close and personal


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 7, 2009)

double post


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 7, 2009)

Yes, there were "issues" in Israel during Jesus' earthly ministry, before His earthly ministry and still after He has ascended. There will continue to be "issues" until He returns.

Israel is NOT innocent in this thing either. They treat the Palestinians horribly. As long as Israel continues to fight over land that God rent out of Israel's hand because of disobedience thousands of years ago, there will be NO peace in Israel so we pray for quiet.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 7, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Well someone who has lived half of their life in Israel it is not so easy as Jesus coming back. Remember there were issues going on there AT the time of Jesus. The political dichotomy has so many layers. The Palestinians have declared Statehood numerous times. There have been rights and wrongs on both sides. But the Arab States use the Palis as a ploy and the Palis in charge use their own people to keep getting sympathy from the World Body ( Which is still very Anti-semetic)
> 
> I just wish it would end. I have lost several relatives to this madness and I have seen it up close and personal


 

How did I know you'd post up in here?  LOL.  Yes ma'am.  And besides that, the Palestinians have pushed away from each and every peace accord table.  They will not stop at Jerusalem being capitol (G-d forbid).  The Kefiyeh (headdress) of Yasser Arafat was fashioned unusually into the entire state of Israel.  I know you know, mamiye, just for those who do not.  There truly needs to be a Jewish forum so we can discuss these issues from a Jewish point of view.


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## divya (Mar 7, 2009)

I just pray for both populations. No _side_ is completely innocent per se, but innocent people are dying. My heart breaks for them...


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## metamorfhosis (Mar 7, 2009)

Ms.Honey said:


> We may have "quiet" in the middle east but we will never have a true peace there until Jesus comes back.


 
EXACTLY...........

Not setting dates just looking at the signs. 


Reference:

Passage Lookup: Daniel 9:27


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## momi (Mar 7, 2009)

If I have my eschatology correct, the antichrist will usher in 7 years of peace...


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## Almaz (Mar 7, 2009)

As Abba Eban said they Palestinians never miss and opportunity to miss and opportunity.


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## metamorfhosis (Mar 8, 2009)

momi said:


> If I have my eschatology correct, the antichrist will usher in 7 years of peace...


 
Yes

*Daniel 9:27 (New International Version)*

27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' [a] In the middle of the 'seven' [b] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing _of the temple _he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. [c] " [d]


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## metamorfhosis (Mar 8, 2009)

Does anyone know any events that must take place before the Rapture?


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## divya (Mar 8, 2009)

I believe Jesus is coming soon, and that these frequent wars and rumors of wars are evidence. However, I do not believe in a rapture. These verse contain some of these signs and also an explanation of the Second Coming...



*Matt 24:24-31*_ For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before.

Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. *Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:*

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: *and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.* And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
_

*Revelation 1:7 * - *Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him*_, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen._


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## divya (Mar 8, 2009)

More end-time prophecy...

*Mark 13:7-13*_ *For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.* And when ye shall hear of *wars and rumours of wars*, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. *For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.* 

But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues* ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. And the gospel must first be published among all nations.* But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

*Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.* And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. _


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 8, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> How did I know you'd post up in here? LOL. Yes ma'am. And besides that, the Palestinians have pushed away from each and every peace accord table. They will not stop at Jerusalem being capitol (G-d forbid). The Kefiyeh (headdress) of Yasser Arafat was fashioned unusually into the entire state of Israel. I know you know, mamiye, just for those who do not. There truly needs to be a Jewish forum so we can discuss these issues from a Jewish point of view.


 
Bev has made it clear several times in several ways that there will be no forums dedicated to other religions. You can start a a social group for Jews here though. 

What exactly is a Jewish point of view? All Jews do not believe that Palestinians are solely at fault and some believe that Israel is mistreating them.


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## Almaz (Mar 9, 2009)

NO not at all.  Not all Jews hold the same opinion. But again I speak Arabic. Read and Write. In Israel you have Jews from many Arabic speaking countries and Muslim lands. I am not saying Israel is Perfect. But when you look at the Arab Media they do say things that are not true. The PA. Hamas and Fatah for the most part are using their people as pawns. As long as you play the victim the World Body especially the Europeans who are notoriously Anti-Semetic will keep sending them money. How did Arafat become one of the World's Richest men without a real Job. Most of those guys collect a paycheck and they live in Europe, Australia and America. Especially in  Dearborn, Michigan and the Posh South Suburbs of Chicago. They don't live there and they are not really down with their people. Again it is a very complex situation with many factors. 

I just wish peace for everyone no matter who they are


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 9, 2009)

Ms.Honey said:


> Bev has made it clear several times in several ways that there will be no forums dedicated to other religions. You can start a a social group for Jews here though.
> 
> What exactly is a Jewish point of view? All Jews do not believe that Palestinians are solely at fault and some believe that Israel is mistreating them.


 
Thanks but I already know that info, you needn't push the point.  It was a wish, not a request.  I'm trying to be as nice as I can about this both for my cousin and others...but the title of the thread...attracts not only christians.  The thing is, you might see some kind of spiritual side to it according to your faith and interpretation and Jews that live right in that conflict will see the mundane daily and political side of the issue.  Those two don't coincide, actually.  Nobody in Israel is waiting for Jesus to come back.  Israel is a physical reality, flesh and blood.  People often talk about the spiritual side...few know the physical realities.  That's all that means.  I'm trying to ease the discussion so nobody harps on a non-christian point of view....because nobody is ever going to convert my cousin to their point of view.   Lots of non-christian folks look at this forum and from the title, it's like bait because there are people here that have lived in Israel.  I'm not telling what to do, I'm just saying...tho.

I'm sorry, I found your post kinda inflaming...to suggest I'm trying to cause some kind of problem by mentioning what the mods/owner have set up.  You didn't need to do that and nobody's here to attack your beliefs.


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## divya (Mar 9, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Thanks but I already know that info, you needn't push the point.  It was a wish, not a request.  I'm trying to be as nice as I can about this both for my cousin and others...but the title of the thread...attracts not only christians.  The thing is, you might see some kind of spiritual side to it according to your faith and interpretation and Jews that live right in that conflict will see the mundane daily and political side of the issue.  Those two don't coincide, actually.  Nobody in Israel is waiting for Jesus to come back.  Israel is a physical reality, flesh and blood.  People often talk about the spiritual side...few know the physical realities.  That's all that means.  I'm trying to ease the discussion so nobody harps on a non-christian point of view....because nobody is ever going to convert my cousin to their point of view.   Lots of non-christian folks look at this forum and from the title, it's like bait because there are people here that have lived in Israel.  I'm not telling what to do, I'm just saying...tho.



This is true. However, Christian perspectives should be expected in a Christian forum. The particular perspective is given here is not just spiritual but also physical - the two being intertwined. Please understand that the point of this thread was not to convert your cousin but to discuss the issue at hand.  Many non-Christians may look at the title differently, but just as the issue may be discussed within their faith from a particular perspective, the same is occurring here.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 9, 2009)

divya said:


> This is true. However, Christian perspectives should be expected in a Christian forum. The particular perspective is given here is not just spiritual and physical - the two being intertwined. Please understand that the point of this thread was not to convert your cousin but to discuss the issue at hand. Many non-Christians may look at the title differently, but just as the issue may be discussed within their faith from a particular perspective, the same is occurring here.


 

I certainly have no problem with that...I'm just trying to be a hedge so another doesn't attack my COUSIN...again.  I'm not saying it was anybody in specific...but there have been posts mentioning something on here in other threads about the non-christian points of view.  People who aren't christian read these threads and respond...*maybe they don't read purpose of the forum stickies.*..  Know what I mean?  That's all.  I was expecting something more inclusive politically and philosophically by the title of the thread, involving the people's opinions who live there, Jews and Muslims.  And in fact, it's good to know what the christian perspective on this is...albeit, it doesn't appear to be including politics.  I'm not here to cause any problems and I don't appreciate the implication (not by you) that I am.


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## divya (Mar 9, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> I certainly have no problem with that...I'm just trying to be a hedge so another doesn't attack my COUSIN...again.  I'm not saying it was anybody in specific...but there have been posts mentioning something on here in other threads about the non-christian points of view.  People who aren't christian read these threads and respond...*maybe they don't read purpose of the forum stickies.*..  Know what I mean?  That's all.  I was expecting something more inclusive politically and philosophically by the title of the thread, involving the people's opinions who live there, Jews and Muslims.  And in fact, it's good to know what the christian perspective on this is...albeit, it doesn't appear to be including politics.



I would definitely agree with you if this was posted in the Off Topic forum. However, I suspect that since the OP posted here that she desires to know how fellow Christians are perceiving this situation. Not saying that your cousin may not offer her perspective, but just that one should certain expect the Christian viewpoint here. But did someone attack your cousin?

On another note, it is interesting to hear both sides. There was one girl in my Human Rights course in college who broke down in a discussion about this issue. Her family members were in concentration camps in Israel. It's sad what we as people will do to each other. Both sides really are suffering and it's just not right...


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## Almaz (Mar 9, 2009)

No no. No one attacked me Yet but again I think this topic is better in the Off Topic Forum. Or even in the Political Forum. But again If you are talking about Jews and Muslims you should not have it in the Chrisitian forum. When I read the post I thought it was about the Politics of the people of the Region.  When honestly you average Israeli and Palestinian is not waiting for Jesus to come back pure and simple. No offense to anyone but that is the truth.  I never wish to offend anyone. But again the truth is the truth. It is so easy for people that probably ( I would never assume) but probably never been to the region and never lived in the region don't understand the culture and the customs or the dichotomy of the situation sit and be armchair political pundits or to accuse one side and not understanding the other. Some of these issues have been going on way before Jesus.   

Land Grab Please My fathers family has been Israeli for many generations. Even before the Ottoman Empire. And parts of my mothers also. 

Maybe again we should move this to the political forum. I dont' want to offend anyone. I know this is a Christian Forum and I truly don't want to offend or upset.


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## divya (Mar 9, 2009)

Almaz said:


> No no. No one attacked me Yet but again* I think this topic is better in the Off Topic Forum. *Or even in the Political Forum. But again If you are talking about Jews and Muslims you should not have it in the Chrisitian forum. When I read the post I thought it was about the Politics of the people of the Region.  When honestly you average Israeli and Palestinian is not waiting for Jesus to come back pure and simple. No offense to anyone but that is the truth.  I never wish to offend anyone. But again the truth is the truth. It is so easy for people that probably ( I would never assume) but probably never been to the region and never lived in the region don't understand the culture and the customs or the dichotomy of the situation sit and be armchair political pundits or to accuse one side and not understanding the other. Some of these issues have been going on way before Jesus.
> 
> Land Grab Please My fathers family has been Israeli for many generations. Even before the Ottoman Empire. And parts of my mothers also.
> 
> Maybe again we should move this to the political forum. I dont' want to offend anyone. I know this is a Christian Forum and I truly don't want to offend or upset.



Probably not because the OP posted it here instead of posting elsewhere.  It's true that average Israeli and Palestinian is not Christian, but that's really irrelevant if we are discussing the issue from a Christian perspective. If you look at the topics in the Christian forum, many issues are discussed from our perspectives. That's the purpose of this forum. If the OP desires the opinions of people of other faiths, maybe she will also post the issue in other areas. Also remember that "before Jesus" doesn't work here either because so many Christians believe Jesus is part of the Godhead _and_ active in humanity before the First Advent. Don't worry, you are not offending or upsetting me at least. However, hope you understand how religious forums generally work. Most people will discuss all matters from the religious perspective of the faith there.


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 9, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Thanks but I already know that info, you needn't push the point. It was a wish, not a request. I'm trying to be as nice as I can about this both for my cousin and others...but the title of the thread...attracts not only christians. The thing is, you might see some kind of spiritual side to it according to your faith and interpretation and Jews that live right in that conflict will see the mundane daily and political side of the issue. Those two don't coincide, actually. Nobody in Israel is waiting for Jesus to come back. Israel is a physical reality, flesh and blood. People often talk about the spiritual side...few know the physical realities. That's all that means. I'm trying to ease the discussion so nobody harps on a non-christian point of view....because nobody is ever going to convert my cousin to their point of view. Lots of non-christian folks look at this forum and from the title, it's like bait because there are people here that have lived in Israel. I'm not telling what to do, I'm just saying...tho.
> 
> I'm sorry, I found your post kinda inflaming...to suggest I'm trying to cause some kind of problem by mentioning what the mods/owner have set up. You didn't need to do that and nobody's here to attack your beliefs.


 


Almaz said:


> No no. No one attacked me Yet but again I think this topic is better in the Off Topic Forum. Or even in the Political Forum. But again If you are talking about Jews and Muslims you should not have it in the Chrisitian forum. When I read the post I thought it was about the Politics of the people of the Region. When honestly you average Israeli and Palestinian is not waiting for Jesus to come back pure and simple. No offense to anyone but that is the truth. I never wish to offend anyone. But again the truth is the truth. It is so easy for people that probably ( I would never assume) but probably never been to the region and never lived in the region don't understand the culture and the customs or the dichotomy of the situation sit and be armchair political pundits or to accuse one side and not understanding the other. Some of these issues have been going on way before Jesus.
> 
> Land Grab Please My fathers family has been Israeli for many generations. Even before the Ottoman Empire. And parts of my mothers also.
> 
> Maybe again we should move this to the political forum. I dont' want to offend anyone. I know this is a Christian Forum and I truly don't want to offend or upset.


 
Ladies, this is the CHRISTIAN *FELLOWSHIP* FORUM It is a place for *Christians to fellowship and discuss* topics that affect us and our walk NOT to have to defend our faith to non-believers. It's not that we DON'T know why Jesus is the Messiah and not that we CAN'T come back at contrary posts verse for verse as to why He is, it's just that we don't because we don't have to here because this is where we as saints of God can escape all of that nonsense, foolishness and vainbabblings. It happens every few months or so and it passes away. We as Christians don't always agree on how things should be done but we do all agree that Jesus is Lord.

Like it or not Israel DOES have an affect on the lives of Christians. Our roots are there also. Our eyes are upon Israel as well. This thread was appropriately placed by the OP. There are MANY Christians living in Israel so Yes Almaz, somebody in Israel, MANY somebody's in Israel are praying for Jesus to return. Last I heard there were more Palestinian Christians in Israel than Messianic ones which is something my people need to remember before we automatically take sides.

 I have had Jewish (non-Messianic) acquantances living in Israel. Yes, we do know something about the situation and have Jewish loved ones eventhough we're ONLY ignorant and unlearned black women Some were for a Palestinian State and some very against one. What we did agree upon was that as long as that pretty little golden domed building sits in the middle of the Holy place, Jews really need to not try and call out Christians about who we are and what and how we do it as long as they allow it to sit there. No offense just stating a fact.


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## Almaz (Mar 9, 2009)

Yes and most of those Palestians Christians are under the Greek Orthodox Faith, Yes and I know of the Messianics that are there too.  But most of the are kind of a nucance to most people because some of them can be kind of intolerant. I have come across many of them in Israel. That is a fact. I never said anyone was IGNORANT. Again this should have been posted in a Political forum. Israelis have to deal with this Palentians have to deal with this. It is part of our day to day lives.  It was and Is a part of my everyday life for many years. Each person has their own viewpoint. I can only speak from my experiences and the experiences of my family. My family is still there. I know what I had to deal with. I know what many people there on both sides had to deal with. Yes there are many people in Israel praying for the return of Jesus and there are others were it does not matter because that is not a part of their nomencluture.  

Todah Rabah. Shukran. 

Again I pray for peace for everyone.


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## Almaz (Mar 9, 2009)

Can we move this to the political forum?


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## divya (Mar 9, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Can we move this to the political forum?



The OP posted this here likely because she would like a Christian perspective on the issue.  Maybe if she comes back then she will clarify if she would like it to be moved. However, feel free to begin a similar topic in the Political forum. Actually there are a number of threads on the topic in the Political forum if you would like to discuss with people of all faiths. 

Here is one... 

http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=326031&highlight=israel+palestine


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## Almaz (Mar 9, 2009)

Thank you so kindly I do appreciate that


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 9, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Yes and most of those Palestians Christians are under the Greek Orthodox Faith, Yes and I know of the Messianics that are there too. But most of the are kind of a nucance to most people because some of them can be kind of intolerant. I have come across many of them in Israel. That is a fact. I never said anyone was IGNORANT. Again this should have been posted in a Political forum. Israelis have to deal with this Palentians have to deal with this. It is part of our day to day lives. It was and Is a part of my everyday life for many years. Each person has their own viewpoint. I can only speak from my experiences and the experiences of my family. My family is still there. I know what I had to deal with. I know what many people there on both sides had to deal with. Yes there are many people in Israel praying for the return of Jesus and there are others were it does not matter because that is not a part of their nomencluture.
> 
> Todah Rabah. Shukran.
> 
> Again I pray for peace for everyone.


 
And there are many Jews who HARASS other Jews on a daily basis on the streets of Israel because they aren't the "RIGHT kind of Jews" so what? I know people on both sides of the situation who live it in their daily lives too, again so what? 

Your viewpoint is welcomed and appreciated but please don't assume that because we are black Christian women that live mainly in America that we don't know what's going on in Israel. We have loved ones and family living and dying in Israel too. Jewish, Christian and Muslim. We don't have to post our bloodline to show we have a right to have an opinion on Israel. It was properly placed here. You or anyone else are welcome to post a similar thread in OT or the political forum. There is no need for OP's thread to be moved.


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## Almaz (Mar 9, 2009)

I never assumed such. Again there are Christians who tell other Christians that they are not true Christians because they are not following the same path. For every person there is a personal thought. I know people on both sides also. Cool you have family in Israel? Cool where do they live. My house is in Ramat Aviv in North Tel Aviv. I will be there in a few months maybe they can come over for lunch


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## Almaz (Mar 9, 2009)

I am glad you know people too. Have you been to Israel?


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 9, 2009)

Almaz said:


> I am glad you know people too. Have you been to Israel?


 
No, I've never been to Israel, it's too hot I would like to go though but I don't have permission from God to go yet. 

I have had acquantances who lived in Israel. One friend I lost contact with years ago. I met him online while researching some stuff on King David's tomb and stuff. I last heard from him the day before a bombing in Jerusalem. I fear he may be dead.


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 9, 2009)

Almaz said:


> I never assumed such. Again there are Christians who tell other Christians that they are not true Christians because they are not following the same path. For every person there is a personal thought. I know people on both sides also. Cool you have family in Israel? Cool where do they live. My house is in Ramat Aviv in North Tel Aviv. I will be there in a few months maybe they can come over for lunch


 
Yes, that's true. I don't think everyone who says they're Christian are Christian. As someone who was not a true Christian and then converted to Christianity and have friends and family who have the same experience, and because Jesus said, "Everyone who says Lord, Lord shall not enter in Get away from me you worker of iniquity",(paraphrase) I know that just because someone says the know Jesus and have done church/religious things does NOT mean they are Christians. Jesus and the apostles are clear about what makes us Christians and what shows that we aren't or weren't really Christians in the first place.


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## Almaz (Mar 9, 2009)

Oh now it is not always hot there actually it even snow in the winter in Jerusalem. The winters can be bitter and cold. The thing about Israel it is so small and in the winter you can go sking in the north by Mount Carmel and in the same day drive to Eliat in the south and go wind surfing. Let hope he did not get killed if he is it would be have been in the news 




Ms.Honey said:


> No, I've never been to Israel, it's too hot I would like to go though but I don't have permission from God to go yet.
> 
> I have had acquantances who lived in Israel. One friend I lost contact with years ago. I met him online while researching some stuff on King David's tomb and stuff. I last heard from him the day before a bombing in Jerusalem. I fear he may be dead.


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 9, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Oh now it is not always hot there actually it even snow in the winter in Jerusalem. The winters can be bitter and cold. The thing about Israel it is so small and in the winter you can go sking in the north by Mount Carmel and in the same day drive to Eliat in the south and go wind surfing. Let hope he did not get killed if he is it would be have been in the news


 
I just knew him not his family so there was no way for me to find out for sure. 

I believe the Lord will let me go to Israel and Turkey one day.


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## Almaz (Mar 9, 2009)

I was in Turkey a number of Years ago. Its great you will have a lovely time. Do you know his name I could possibly find out for you. You can PM me. I would be happy to find out for you. But Turkey is really a wonderful country and they are very lovely people. Gate one tours is good.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 9, 2009)

Ms.Honey said:


> I have had Jewish (non-Messianic) acquantances living in Israel. Yes, we do know something about the situation and have Jewish loved ones eventhough we're ONLY ignorant and unlearned black women Some were for a Palestinian State and some very against one. What we did agree upon was that as long as that pretty little golden domed building sits in the middle of the Holy place, Jews really need to not try and call out Christians about who we are and what and how we do it as long as they allow it to sit there. No offense just stating a fact.


 

Yes, we have blood family.  Sorry.  If you actually read my posts with any understanding, you will see that I was trying to diffuse a possible situation...as it's come to head.  I just didn't need someone misconstruing my intent and calling for the mods.  That's why I said that the title was very political-sounding and that the responses it would have gotten from the variety of Jews in this whole group might have been tempted to post...and it wouldn't be from a christian perspective.  That's all. 

As far as I'm concerned, I am not calling anybody "unlearned women."  I also am not about 
" that nonsense, foolishness and vainbabblings."  And I am certainly aware that you think I'm 'walking in darkness.'  It's all gud.  Let's not worry about that.


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## Almaz (Mar 9, 2009)

Walking in Darkness what is that mean? I heard someone say that a long time ago about drug users.


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## metamorfhosis (Mar 10, 2009)

divya said:


> The OP posted this here likely because she would like a Christian perspective on the issue. Maybe if she comes back then she will clarify if she would like it to be moved. However, feel free to begin a similar topic in the Political forum. Actually there are a number of threads on the topic in the Political forum if you would like to discuss with people of all faiths.


 
Ladies:

When I start a thread, I usually don't like to get involved and remain neutral. I don't like to influence the tone (views) in a thread. 

I wanted to post this thread RIGHT HERE without all the drama of a "secular" forum. I wanted the perspective of THIS FORUM. After reading the posts, I have learned some things about the region. I think we all would agree that this is a COMPLEX subject. However, I was aiming for something a little more superficial. Governments have tried to establish a peace treaty in this region with no success. 

Actually, I just wanted to discuss the possibility of THE peace treaty being signed and the Anti-Christ coming out of hiding. 

Basically, I just wanted to bring hope to the Body of Christ and discuss if this could be a sign that the Rapture may be near. (Not setting dates--just watching signs)

Carry on.........


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 10, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Yes, we have blood family. Sorry. If you actually read my posts with any understanding, you will see that I was trying to diffuse a possible situation...as it's come to head. I just didn't need someone misconstruing my intent and calling for the mods. That's why I said that the title was very political-sounding and that the responses it would have gotten from the variety of Jews in this whole group might have been tempted to post...and it wouldn't be from a christian perspective. That's all.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned, I am not calling anybody "unlearned women." I also am not about
> " that nonsense, foolishness and vainbabblings." And I am certainly aware that you think I'm 'walking in darkness.' It's all gud. Let's not worry about that.


 
I never said I thought you were walking in darkness what I said that what you do is confusion. Practicing two different opposing religions is confusion but that's your business.

There was nothing that needed diffusing in the first place. If you had any understanding you would know that we often discuss politics in Christian forum. This is not some "extraordinary" thread that needed to be moderated. It's just another day in CF.


----------



## Almaz (Mar 10, 2009)

When you talk about this region it very difficult just to bring up the secular. Because religion plays a big part. Take a trip one day.


----------



## Almaz (Mar 10, 2009)

Yeah like Messianics. They practise two oppsosing faiths. Yep they sure do.


----------



## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 10, 2009)

Ms.Honey said:


> I never said I thought you were walking in darkness what I said that what you do is confusion. *Practicing two different opposing religions is confusion but that's your business.*
> 
> There was nothing that needed diffusing in the first place. If you had any understanding you would know that we often discuss politics in Christian forum. This is not some "extraordinary" thread that needed to be moderated. It's just another day in CF.


 

That's absolutely your right to your opinion, it is not, however, your right to judge that I am confused.  I respect that you wish to offer your christian counsel to me.  But no, confusion is not my business because I am not confused.  It's called raising 1/2 Jewish kids in a very multi-cultural/multi-faith family.  We don't deny any of our parts.  We are open to learn, toward knowledge, to foster intellect and to question the world around us...balance and not religious coercion and guilt.  No two "christian" walks are the same.  Neither are two "Jewish" walks.  And for either religious community, any admonition we encounter from those not in multi-cultural families is taken with a grain of salt, but without hostility. We understand their concerns.

Curiosity doesn't arrest itself at the onset of faith in any particular religion unless one oppresses his own mind.  The difference between _your_ religious experience and _mine_ is that it is _individual_ and it should be respected as such.  People in oury position understand quite well the roots of such a journey and there are support groups and organizations so it is well-documented and supported.  Of course, those are speaking from  non-judgmental personal experiences and not speculation.

I trust that we can agree to differ without judgement against either's beliefs here in this forum, even through the slightly veiled judgements bordering on insult.  But please know that not all interpretations of found truth mirror your own, even within christianity.


----------



## Almaz (Mar 10, 2009)

Yep that is just how it is. Very well said


----------



## divya (Mar 10, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Yeah like Messianics. They practise two oppsosing faiths. Yep they sure do.



Please explain how they are practicing two opposing faiths...


----------



## Crackers Phinn (Mar 10, 2009)

metamorfhosis said:


> Actually, I just wanted to discuss the possibility of THE peace treaty being signed and the Anti-Christ coming out of hiding.
> 
> Basically, I just wanted to bring hope to the Body of Christ and discuss if this could be a sign that the Rapture may be near. (Not setting dates--just watching signs)
> 
> Carry on.........




I gotta ask,  why on earth is living to see the 'fulfillment' of the book of revelations looked on as a good thing? 

Why is everybody in a hurry for 7 seals and 7 plagues and heads getting chopped off, death, desecration, mayhem and all that comes with the horror show that is revelations? 

What is wrong with living your life according to the principals of whatever religion you belong to and then after a LONG life dying and then going to heaven if that's what you believe?

I grew up with plenty of old ladies who are now dead and gone who spent so much time harping on living in the last days that they forgot to friggin enjoy their own last days.


----------



## divya (Mar 10, 2009)

JCoily said:


> I gotta ask,  why on earth is living to see the 'fulfillment' of the book of revelations looked on as a good thing?
> 
> Why is everybody in a hurry for 7 seals and 7 plagues and heads getting chopped off, death, desecration, mayhem and all that comes with the horror show that is revelations?
> 
> ...



The point is to watch and pray as instructed by God. Doing such does not mean that one cannot enjoy life. Further, the fulfillment of the Book of Revelation is a good thing because God prevails. Some people are not worried about the trials to come because our hope is in the Almighty.


----------



## Carolina18 (Mar 10, 2009)

Ms.Honey said:


> Bev has made it clear several times in several ways that there will be no forums dedicated to other religions. You can start a a social group for Jews here though.
> 
> * What exactly is a Jewish point of view?* All Jews do not believe that Palestinians are solely at fault and some believe that Israel is mistreating them.




And certainly in the American media, more focus is given to the 'Jewish' point of view (however defined) than the Palestinian.


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## Cichelle (Mar 10, 2009)

divya said:


> Please explain how they are practicing two opposing faiths...



For one perspective, read the beliefs here and you might understand.


----------



## Crackers Phinn (Mar 10, 2009)

divya said:


> The point is to watch and pray as instructed by God. Doing such does not mean that one cannot enjoy life. Further, *the fulfillment of the Book of Revelation is a good thing because God prevails. *Some people are not worried about the trials to come because our hope is in the Almighty.



G-d prevails every day.


----------



## divya (Mar 10, 2009)

Cichelle said:


> For one perspective, read the beliefs here and you might understand.



Interesting perspective. 

It is even more interesting that Jews who "don't believe in God" are considered Jews, but one who accept Christ or join another faith is considered not a Jew (lineage or rather citizenship/inheritance is considered forfeited).

On the other hand...

http://www.allaboutreligion.org/messianic-judaism-faq.htm


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## Almaz (Mar 10, 2009)

No not really. The American Media is just as baised at time against Israel as much as the European Media.


----------



## divya (Mar 10, 2009)

JCoily said:


> G-d prevails every day.



Yes. However, I believe in a "great controversy" in which God will ultimately prevail.


----------



## divya (Mar 10, 2009)

Carolina18 said:


> And certainly in the American media, more focus is given to the 'Jewish' point of view (however defined) than the Palestinian.





Almaz said:


> No not really. The American Media is just as baised at time against Israel as much as the European Media.



I certainly find the U.S. media more prone to favor Israel. There is a lingering viewpoint among a number of mainstream Christians that they must protect Israel. That has permeated the media overall, though maybe not completely. There is more than one viewpoint behind the "protection" belief. Maybe someone who believes that can expound better than me...


----------



## Almaz (Mar 10, 2009)

No actually they still are considered Jews. Just ones who left the fold. If they want to come back to Judiasm they are most welcomed and it is like we would never say Oh you cannot come to the synagouge ever again. It is disappointing to say the least when someone leaves the faith but we don't consider them NOT Jewish.  I know of one woman who became a J for J. Her family was REALLY extremely upset and disappointed but they just said she is Jewish but she does not practise the faith anymore. It was even more so for her parents because they were Holocaust Suvivours. 

But as far as Wholesale ex-communication from the Jewish people. That is up to families and how they feel about it their loved ones leaving.


----------



## divya (Mar 10, 2009)

Almaz said:


> No actually they still are considered Jews. Just ones who left the fold. If they want to come back to Judiasm they are most welcomed and it is like we would never say Oh you cannot come to the synagouge ever again. It is disappointing to say the least when someone leaves the faith but we don't consider them NOT Jewish.  I know of one woman who became a J for J. Her family was REALLY extremely upset and disappointed but they just said she is Jewish but she does not practise the faith anymore. It was even more so for her parents because they were Holocaust Suvivours.
> 
> But as far as Wholesale ex-communication from the Jewish people. That is up to families and how they feel about it their loved ones leaving.



Guess it's safe to say that beliefs on this matter varies...


----------



## Cichelle (Mar 10, 2009)

divya said:


> Interesting perspective.
> 
> It is even more interesting that Jews who "don't believe in God" are considered Jews, but one who accept Christ or join another faith is considered not a Jew (lineage or rather citizenship/inheritance is considered forfeited).
> 
> ...



No, it's not about whether you are a Jew or not. You can be a Jew who practices another religion. 

If you "accept" (worship, believe in, etc.) the Christian messiah, you are not practicing Judaism. You are practicing some form of Christianity. 

The two cannot be mixed in one religion as they conflict in fundamental ways. That's _my_ say on the subject.


----------



## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 10, 2009)

divya said:


> Interesting perspective.
> 
> It is even more interesting that Jews who "don't believe in God" are considered Jews, but one who accept Christ or join another faith is considered not a Jew (lineage or rather citizenship/inheritance is considered forfeited).
> 
> ...


 
In my humble opinion, the sister and brother faiths turn from each other at the point of WHO the messiah is, not that there will be a messiah.  I don't truly find it oppressing to hear either side.  My point is, there is belief in the resurrection of the dead, which a Jew and a christian both must believe in and there is the belief in a messiah to come and set the world correct, turn every man to worship the one true G-d. 

 Contrary to some beliefs, christians ARE a monotheistic religion.  They hold the G-dhead in mystery (attrributes of G-d) etc. and part of that they accept is the messiahship they have attributed to Jesus.  Jews are looking for the Messiah yet because not all the prophesies have been filled.  Christians are waiting for him to come back because they believe that the nec. prophesies have been fulfilled for his messiahship but because of non-acceptance, He would not institute that change for final peace yet.  

Both faiths are valid in looking for a messiah in that no, the triumphant messiah has not come - look at the state of the world - and no, the second coming according to christian tradition is supposed to herald that triumph and final turnaround towards peace.  Both faiths, IMHO, are right in that they are waiting FOR the messianic prophesies to be fulfilled.  The problem is WHO is he?  

I have respect and honor for both faiths and I don't see either as wrong - from either side.  I likewise do not see the Torah and Tenakh as OLD.  It is everlasting and the commands to honor the mitzvot (the ones we can today) were for all generations of Jews.  I truly don't see how placing the messiahship on Jesus would "take away" Jewishness from a person any more than someone who placed that messiahship on Kochbar, Akiba or Schneersohn.  Of course,  that is MY HUMBLE opinion.  Kumbayah and let's not fight lol.  The world is not healed and it's very evident.  But messianic Judaism in itself as a "religion" is not Judaism.  I won't discuss here why I think so, it might be inflammatory but I feel elements are missing and there's only one place where those elements are present.  But again, MY HUMBLE opinion.  An educated one.  

Thus, many religious traditions *are* waiting for a messiah to come.  There are Indian prophecies from many centuries ago waiting for a man of peace to come to unite the world.  There are elements in some Indian Nations' traditions that are surprisingly Judaic.  I just don't like the fights issued from either side of the fence on how someone is no longer whichever or whatever when truly, G-d is in that person's heart and only He offers heaven to the world.  Ex, if one becomes a Muslim, he's still Jewish because of halacha and belief in One G-d.  If he believes Schneersohn is the messiah, there's ridicule and a theological problem of misplacement....but he's still Jewish.  If he believes that messiahship is with Rabbi Jesus, people wil say he's no longer Jewish, both christians and Jews.  I believe they are wrong - note, IMHO - and I've got my reasoning.  It's not straddeling the fence either.  It's a theological issue.

On the other hand, if a Jew becomes a christian (I'm not talking messianic church), there are some who tell him he's no longer Jewish, from the christian side and that he must let go anything inherently Judaic.  LOL.  Then get rid of belief in a Jewish messiah!!!  They are wrong as well.  He is still Jewish.  Many will consider him an apostate.  I've heard arguments from traditionally judaic sides, christian sides, Jews who have become catholic's side, messianic sides...and I have respect to listen to the points.

How many anusim (forcibly converted Jewish ancestors and descendants from them) exist in this world?   How many whose families were forcibly removed from Judaism are now balei teshuvim...returning to live as Jews?  Judaism has had to somewhat change to reflect the various realities of what it means to be Jews...i.e., Jewish father...Reform considers fully Jewish, returning Jews and not expecting a convert status, but return status.  

Halacha can change to reflect the needs and realities of changing generations.  But the issue will always be WHO is the messiah.  And this is not at all accepted by orthodoxy, the bastions of faith.  Orthodox christianity also guards the faith and determines who is and who is not in communion with them.  There is a theological impasse and it resting  upon interpretation of who that moschiah is.

I don't think this should keep people from dialoguing with each other and finding commonalities.  There can be mutual respect but oftentimes, it is not evident.  Christians have suffered in the past with horrid persecutions and so have Jews, even today.  We must find a place of respect for each other despite our differences because, one day, Messiah will come in Triumph and set this world straight.  Of course, this is just...MY HUMBLE OPINION>  As the Lakota say, "mitakuye oyasin"...."we are all related."


----------



## divya (Mar 10, 2009)

Cichelle said:


> No, it's not about whether you are a Jew or not. You can be a Jew who practices another religion.
> 
> If you "accept" (worship, believe in, etc.) the Christian messiah, you are not *practicing Judaism*. You are practicing some form of Christianity.
> 
> The two cannot be mixed in one religion as they conflict in fundamental ways. That's _my_ say on the subject.



The site that you posted said the following: 

_Jews believe that "Jews for Jesus," "Messianic Jews," and "Hebrew Christians"* are no longer Jews*, even if they were once Jews._

It did not state "practicing Judaism." At the same time, it said that those who said "they do not believe in God" are Jews. That's what I was referring to.


----------



## Cichelle (Mar 10, 2009)

divya said:


> The site that you posted said the following:
> 
> _Jews believe that "Jews for Jesus," "Messianic Jews," and "Hebrew Christians"* are no longer Jews*, even if they were once Jews._
> 
> It did not state "practicing Judaism." At the same time, it said that those who said "they do not believe in God" are Jews. That's what I was referring to.



I gave _my_ say on the matter in my most recent post.

You can be Jewish without practicing Judaism. If your mother is Jewish or you converted to Judaism you are a Jew. You may leave Judaism and start practicing Christianity, but that doesn't change who gave birth to you or the conversion you went through in the past. 

However, if you are Jewish and you are conducting yourself as a Christian and believing things that are contrary to Judaism, it should not be a surprise that someone will think or believe you are not a Jew, whether you technically are or not.


----------



## divya (Mar 10, 2009)

Cichelle said:


> I gave _my_ say on the matter in my most recent post.
> 
> *You can be Jewish without practicing Judaism. If your mother is Jewish or you converted to Judaism you are a Jew. You may leave Judaism and start practicing Christianity, but that doesn't change who gave birth to you or the conversion you went through in the past. *
> 
> However, if you are Jewish and you are conducting yourself as a Christian and believing things that are contrary to Judaism, it should not be a surprise that someone will think or believe you are not a Jew, whether you technically are or not.



Ok, I see.

The bolded is the perspective I am most familiar with. The site you posted seems like a much more strict perspective. Which would you say is more widely held?


----------



## divya (Mar 10, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> In my humble opinion, the sister and brother faiths turn from each other at the point of WHO the messiah is, not that there will be a messiah.  I don't truly find it oppressing to hear either side.  My point is, there is belief in the resurrection of the dead, which a Jew and a christian both must believe in and there is the belief in a messiah to come and set the world correct, turn every man to worship the one true G-d.
> 
> Contrary to some beliefs, christians ARE a monotheistic religion.  They hold the G-dhead in mystery (attrributes of G-d) etc. and part of that they accept is the messiahship they have attributed to Jesus.  Jews are looking for the Messiah yet because not all the prophesies have been filled.  Christians are waiting for him to come back because they believe that the nec. prophesies have been fulfilled for his messiahship but because of non-acceptance, He would not institute that change for final peace yet.



Agreed.  



> Both faiths are valid in looking for a messiah in that no, the triumphant messiah has not come - look at the state of the world - and no, the second coming according to christian tradition is supposed to herald that triumph and final turnaround towards peace.  Both faiths, IMHO, are right in that they are waiting FOR the messianic prophesies to be fulfilled.  The problem is WHO is he?



Of course, the answer to that question will vary based on the faith. 



> I have respect and honor for both faiths and I don't see either as wrong - from either side.  I likewise do not see the Torah and Tenakh as OLD.  It is everlasting and the commands to honor the mitzvot (the ones we can today) were for all generations of Jews.  I truly don't see how placing the messiahship on Jesus would "take away" Jewishness from a person any more than someone who placed that messiahship on Kochbar, Akiba or Schneersohn.  Of course,  that is MY HUMBLE opinion.  Kumbayah and let's not fight lol.  The world is not healed and it's very evident.  But messianic Judaism in itself as a "religion" is not Judaism.  I won't discuss here why I think so, it might be inflammatory but I feel elements are missing and there's only one place where those elements are present.  But again, MY HUMBLE opinion.  An educated one.



I do not see the Torah and Tenakh as “old” in the same sense as mainstream Christianity.  Nor do I believe that it is only relevant for Jews. So guess my beliefs fall somewhere in the middle. Messianic Jews consider themselves to be Christian as well.  They seem to define their faith as “Messianic Judaism” rather than Judaism alone. It’s interesting.  I haven't fully grasped their perspective, although some of their core beliefs are quite similar to mine.

So do you consider yourself a member of both faiths or neither? 



> Thus, many religious traditions *are* waiting for a messiah to come.  There are Indian prophecies from many centuries ago waiting for a man of peace to come to unite the world.  There are elements in some Indian Nations' traditions that are surprisingly Judaic.  I just don't like the fights issued from either side of the fence on how someone is no longer whichever or whatever when truly, G-d is in that person's heart and only He offers heaven to the world.  Ex, if one becomes a Muslim, he's still Jewish because of halacha and belief in One G-d.  If he believes Schneersohn is the messiah, there's ridicule and a theological problem of misplacement....but he's still Jewish.  If he believes that messiahship is with Rabbi Jesus, people wil say he's no longer Jewish, both christians and Jews.  I believe they are wrong - note, IMHO - and I've got my reasoning.  It's not straddeling the fence either.  It's a theological issue.
> 
> On the other hand, if a Jew becomes a christian (I'm not talking messianic church), there are some who tell him he's no longer Jewish, from the christian side and that he must let go anything inherently Judaic.  LOL.  Then get rid of belief in a Jewish messiah!!!  They are wrong as well.  He is still Jewish.  Many will consider him an apostate.  I've heard arguments from traditionally judaic sides, christian sides, Jews who have become catholic's side, messianic sides...and I have respect to listen to the points.
> 
> ...



Very interesting perspective. So what do you believe to be _right_? How do you reconcile both views?


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 10, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> In my humble opinion, the sister and brother faiths turn from each other at the point of WHO the messiah is, not that there will be a messiah. I don't truly find it oppressing to hear either side. My point is, there is belief in the resurrection of the dead, which a Jew and a christian both must believe in and there is the belief in a messiah to come and set the world correct, turn every man to worship the one true G-d.
> 
> Contrary to some beliefs, christians ARE a monotheistic religion. They hold the G-dhead in mystery (attrributes of G-d) etc. and part of that they accept is the messiahship they have attributed to Jesus. Jews are looking for the Messiah yet because not all the prophesies have been filled. Christians are waiting for him to come back because they believe that the nec. prophesies have been fulfilled for his messiahship but because of non-acceptance, He would not institute that change for final peace yet.
> 
> ...


 
It IS confusion. And is this YOUR POV? Show me scripture not googled info please.

All Jews, probably most, do NOT believe in the resurrection of the dead (opposing beliefs). Jews who are not Christians do not believe that Jesus is Lord and Christians do (opposing beliefs). Dietary laws, which many Jews break themselves (opposing beliefs). Are YOU Jewish or are your children Jewish. Your children being Jewish does not make you Jewish. It is confusion. 

God told me to tell you that you claim all of these beliefs and all of these people and that you claim to be all these things except for a single, black mother. You are and you should accept that. He says that you are hiding from Him but He sees you. You're exposed to Him and He sees your nakedness. Nothing is hidden from Him. He will heal you.

If you or the other Jewish women want to know WHY we believe that Jesus is the Messiah/Christ read Acts, Hebrews and Romans. It's too much evidence to explain in a thread.


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## Almaz (Mar 10, 2009)

Do you really know her well enough to say that all she is is a single Black mother? I mean do you know her background. Who her people are. Where they came from. Their ethnic makeup to say such things.  G-d tells you to tell people that is all they are are single black mothers? 

Please clarify. 

Thanks




God told me to tell you that you claim all of these beliefs and all of these people and that you claim to be all these things except for a single, black mother. You are and you should accept that. He says that you are hiding from Him but He sees you. You're exposed to Him and He sees your nakedness. Nothing is hidden from Him. He will heal you.

If you or the other Jewish women want to know WHY we believe that Jesus is the Messiah/Christ read Acts, Hebrews and Romans. It's too much evidence to explain in a thread.


----------



## Cichelle (Mar 10, 2009)

divya said:


> Ok, I see.
> 
> The bolded is the perspective I am most familiar with. The site you posted seems like a much more strict perspective. Which would you say is more widely held?




I think most Jewish people understand the technicalities of the issue. They understand that regardless of whether someone is practicing a different religion, that person is still technically a Jew if they were born to a Jewish mother, for instance. But again, if you are a Jew who acts, thinks, lives, etc like a Christian and seeks to proselytize among the Jewish people, you should not be surprised when someone says you are "not Jewish". What they most likely mean is that you are an apostate. (I personally do not like using that word.)


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## Almaz (Mar 10, 2009)

Are you psychic Honey?


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 10, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Are you psychic Honey?


 
No, she posted that she was in previous threads. I thought you said you've been here a while?


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 10, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Do you really know her well enough to say that all she is is a single Black mother? I mean do you know her background. Who her people are. Where they came from. Their ethnic makeup to say such things. G-d tells you to tell people that is all they are are single black mothers?
> 
> Please clarify.
> 
> ...


 
I did not say that ALL she is is a single black mother. There is no shame in being a single/divorced black mother.


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## Almaz (Mar 10, 2009)

Yeah I have but I never look at those threads I was into Skin care and Career.


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## Almaz (Mar 10, 2009)

But still do you know her entire Background?


----------



## divya (Mar 10, 2009)

Cichelle said:


> I think most Jewish people understand the technicalities of the issue. They understand that regardless of whether someone is practicing a different religion, that person is still technically a Jew if they were born to a Jewish mother, for instance. But again, if you are a Jew who acts, thinks, lives, etc like a Christian and seeks to proselytize among the Jewish people, you should not be surprised when someone says you are "not Jewish". What they most likely mean is that you are an apostate. (I personally do not like using that word.)



Thanks for clarifying.


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 10, 2009)

Almaz said:


> But still do you know her entire Background?


 
Like I said, she's posted it. Several times. In great detail.


----------



## Almaz (Mar 10, 2009)

okay alright. 




Ms.Honey said:


> Like I said, she's posted it. Several times. In great detail.


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 10, 2009)

Cichelle said:


> I think most Jewish people understand the technicalities of the issue. They understand that regardless of whether someone is practicing a different religion, that person is still technically a Jew if they were born to a Jewish mother, for instance. But again, if you are a Jew who acts, thinks, lives, etc like a Christian and seeks to proselytize among the Jewish people, you should not be surprised when someone says you are "not Jewish". What they most likely mean is that you are an apostate. (I personally do not like using that word.)


 
So a person with a Jewish father would not be a Jew? Say for instance, Issac and Ishmael. They were Jewish because Sarah was but not because Abraham who God actually made the promise to was? Or say more recently Lenny Kravitz? If his mom did not convert(not sure whether she did or not), his dad being Jewish would not make him Jewish although he has Jewish blood flowing through his veins? A person with a Jewish dad and a non-Jewish mom wouldn't be a Jew but a person who decides to convert to Judaism is a Jew or would they forever be considered a proselyte Jew? Would a child born to a Jewish dad have to "convert" to Judaism to be considered Jewish and would HE be known as a proselyte too?

Not trying to be sarcastic but trying to understand.


----------



## Almaz (Mar 10, 2009)

It it depends because some streams accepted if the father is Jewish so is the child.  Reform In the Conservative it depends. With the Orthodox no way.


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## Almaz (Mar 10, 2009)

Was you convert. you are Jewish and no one should remind you that you are a convert.


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 10, 2009)

Almaz said:


> It it depends because some streams accepted if the father is Jewish so is the child. Reform In the Conservative it depends. With the Orthodox no way.


 
Thanks Almaz. 

What scriptures do they use for the basis of denial. Those who deny the fathers lineage, would the person have to convert or would he never be accepted as Jewish? And what about non-Jews who convert to Judaism? Are they considered to be equally as Jewish as a Jew born to a Jewish mother or forever a Jewish proselyte?


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 10, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Was you convert. you are Jewish and no one should remind you that you are a convert.


 
I converted to Christianity.


----------



## Almaz (Mar 10, 2009)

What were you Jewish before? [


quote=Ms.Honey;7308699]I converted to Christianity.[/quote]


----------



## Almaz (Mar 10, 2009)

People who convert to Judiasm are full members of the Jewish people.  Both of my parents are Jewish so I never had to deal with that. Thank G-d. I am so happy that way too.  Again people change interpretation to suit their needs Christians Jews and Muslims. 





Ms.Honey said:


> Thanks Almaz.
> 
> What scriptures do they use for the basis of denial. Those who deny the fathers lineage, would the person have to convert or would he never be accepted as Jewish? And what about non-Jews who convert to Judaism? Are they considered to be equally as Jewish as a Jew born to a Jewish mother or forever a Jewish proselyte?


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 10, 2009)

Almaz said:


> What were you Jewish before? [
> 
> 
> quote=Ms.Honey;7308699]I converted to Christianity.


[/quote]

No, I was a nominal Christian (Christian in name only). I have Jewish ancestors but my family is Christian.


----------



## Almaz (Mar 10, 2009)

Jewish Ancestors> Oh I am very interested. Can you tell us a little about it. 

No, I was a nominal Christian (Christian in name only). I have Jewish ancestors but my family is Christian.[/quote]


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## Almaz (Mar 10, 2009)

That is so cool. where were they from?


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 10, 2009)

Almaz said:


> People who convert to Judiasm are full members of the Jewish people. Both of my parents are Jewish so I never had to deal with that. Thank G-d. I am so happy that way too. *Again people change interpretation to suit their needs Christians Jews and Muslims.[/*quote]
> 
> Explain please.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 10, 2009)

Almaz said:


> That is so cool. where were they from?


 
Girl, who knows You just know who you're made of but it doesn't profit you in your daily life. Black, Native American, Scot/Irish etc. I look black so I claim black not Native American or Scot/Irish. I don't deny them but I don't go around saying that I am. I do not deny having Jewish heritage but I don't go around claiming it. I'm Christian because I converted from being a nominal one not Messianic.


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## Almaz (Mar 10, 2009)

People interpret their faiths to suit their needs like the reform accepting Patrilineal Halahchot. and the Mormons FLDS saying that is okay to have children and marry with really young underage girls. Thats all






Ms.Honey said:


> Almaz said:
> 
> 
> > People who convert to Judiasm are full members of the Jewish people. Both of my parents are Jewish so I never had to deal with that. Thank G-d. I am so happy that way too. *Again people change interpretation to suit their needs Christians Jews and Muslims.[/*quote]
> ...


----------



## Almaz (Mar 10, 2009)

Oh I was just curious because I like a lot of other Jews like to play Jewish Geography. So when someone says that they have Jewish ancestors is peeks our interest. 




Ms.Honey said:


> Girl, who knows You just know who you're made of but it doesn't profit you in your daily life. Black, Native American, Scot/Irish etc. I look black so I claim black not Native American or Scot/Irish. I don't deny them but I don't go around saying that I am. I do not deny having Jewish heritage but I don't go around claiming it. I'm Christian because I converted from being a nominal one not Messianic.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 10, 2009)

divya said:


> Very interesting perspective. So what do you believe to be _right_? How do you reconcile both views?


 
That the fact that the world is in a state of chaos is evidence the triumphant has not come.  We are still waiting for the messiah to make it right.  I listen, simply.

When you are in a multi-faith/cultural family, you do not teach that one is right and the other wrong.  You learn to live together in harmony and expose yourself to each.  I guess one thing that is common with my beliefs and family, we do not condemn anybody to hell.  That, I do not believe in.


----------



## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 10, 2009)

Ms.Honey said:


> It IS confusion. And is this YOUR POV? Show me scripture not googled info please.
> 
> All Jews, probably most, do NOT believe in the resurrection of the dead (opposing beliefs). Jews who are not Christians do not believe that Jesus is Lord and Christians do (opposing beliefs). Dietary laws, which many Jews break themselves (opposing beliefs). Are YOU Jewish or are your children Jewish. Your children being Jewish does not make you Jewish. It is confusion.
> 
> ...


 
Perhaps it's confusion for someone who never studied theology and is too judgmental to listen and learn.  I don't have a problem.  Googled?  Sweetheart, I learned these things, didn't google anything I wrote.  Resurrection of the dead is the 13th principle of Jewish faith and essential to the belief of the Jew.  I don't know where you get YOUR learning, but I know this to be fact.  You can, perhaps, google Maimonides 13 Principles.  

What?????  My children's father is an Ethiopian Jew.  I am a Black Muskogee Indian, Native, Indigenous American.  My entire family hails from the Indian Territory as Indians.  My family spoke Creek paternally, Chickasaw, paternally  and Cherokee maternally.  My family hails from Ridge, Indian Territory, in Arkansas Dist., Oklahoma Indian Territory.  I am the second generation born AMERICAN.  Before that, we were Indians according to our Nation.  I am not just Black, I am Indian by blood.  We have our papers...our govt. issued dog holocaust tags.  Do you?  If you don't, I'm not against you.  I am the Indian and I do not apologize for that.  My ex-husband is a JEW, therefore, I said my children are 1/2 Jews.  They are not considered halachically Jewish because of me.   HOwever, in the Reform tradition of Judaism, they ARE Jewish.  I am also descendant of anusi people...Sephardic Jews from my paternal side.  Jews lived in the West from many times before.  There are quite a few Indian Jews.  Maybe you should read a book sometimes.  Please know this fact, most Indians are mixed.  There are few fullbloods...and if you think they look fullblood, it is because you do not know our history nor our peoples.  How dare you!

As I explained to you before, we expose our kids to our heritages.  That also means they attend parochial school.  They also attend Mass.  I go to confession weekly.  How is that hiding from G-d?  If G-d wishes to tell me I'm not an Indian, then He should have told my Indian ancestors that they didn't exist.  You are making up stories.  Yes, I am Black...and Indian...we call it jokingly, Maroon.  Mix Black and Red...what do you get...Maroon.  Don't tell me G-d told you something, a person through a computer...that He didn't tell me Himself.  G-d has always spoken to our people and to me.  


Pah!  I'm hiding?  Of course I'm Red/Black...and an Indian chick.  Single mother?  Yes, a divorcee...my kids are not illegitimate.  My children were raised in a 2-parent married household.  We are now divorced.  How dare you insult me with your pseudo religious buffalo feces.  He see all nakedness, and certainly your vanity and righteous indignatious babble.  You do not know me nor my family to make such bogus claims.  If you never heard of Black Indians, that's your problem.  Except for a "single Black mother."  How christian of you.  No thanks!


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## Irresistible (Mar 10, 2009)

*Gulp*

swallows hard!


----------



## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 10, 2009)

Ms.Honey said:


> No, she posted that she was in previous threads. I thought you said you've been here a while?


 
I was what?  Indian or Jewish?  I'm anusi.  Google that.  As far as conversion is concerned...yes, I'm seriously considering a Jewish conversion.  Does my family attend shul?  Absolutely.  I've already begun the process, years ago.  Is my mindset Jewish?  ABsolutely and getting more Jewish while reading your crap.  There are rabbis who return lost Jews honey.  But I don't expect you to understand that.  It's too complicated and you'll just have to learn about it on your own.  No time to splain!  But nooooo, I can't claim any of my Jewish ancestors who intermarried with Indians and AFricans because I'm a single Black mother.  

 I don't see a problem with learning anything about everything.  Of course, I am my mother and father's daughter...both sets of parents.  More importantly, I come from the G-d who made me the sum of all my ancestral parts.  BTW, my bio father keeps shabbos and my adoptive father of blessed memory attended shul for many years.  The siddurim I have in my house came from him.  Good L-rd.  You bit off too much honey.   I don't have a problem...I don't judge who's going to hell or not.  You seem to be UBER preoccupied with it like G-d's got you on speed dial or something.  You got the Book of Life on your library shelf or something?  I thought G-d made those entries.  

I do not believe for any moment that MY G-d told you anything at all.  You are making this false prophet story up because you cannot fathom my existence.  That's okay honey, I didn't ask for your acceptance...already got it from Creator.  Yes...YES, I certainly do believe all these things.  G-d, Jesus, Wakan Tanka, the L-rd, whoever you wish to call Him...I believe in the Higher One.


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## Irresistible (Mar 10, 2009)

I have to ask

why would God tell anyone they are a black (as if color matters to him) single (like she wouldnt know that already) Mother (as though she thought otherwise)

I have to admit I am a little confused

God does not offend,  there would be no purpose in God saying this to her,  that is  confusion IMO


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 10, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Perhaps it's confusion for someone who never studied theology and is too judgmental to listen and learn. I don't have a problem. Googled? Sweetheart, I learned these things, didn't google anything I wrote. Resurrection of the dead is the 13th principle of Jewish faith and essential to the belief of the Jew. I don't know where you get YOUR learning, but I know this to be fact. You can, perhaps, google Maimonides 13 Principles.
> 
> What????? My children's father is an Ethiopian Jew. I am a Black Muskogee Indian, Native, Indigenous American. My entire family hails from the Indian Territory as Indians. My family spoke Creek paternally, Chickasaw, paternally and Cherokee maternally. My family hails from Ridge, Indian Territory, in Arkansas Dist., Oklahoma Indian Territory. I am the second generation born AMERICAN. Before that, we were Indians according to our Nation. I am not just Black, I am Indian by blood. We have our papers...our govt. issued dog holocaust tags. Do you? If you don't, I'm not against you. I am the Indian and I do not apologize for that. My ex-husband is a JEW, therefore, I said my children are 1/2 Jews. They are not considered halachically Jewish because of me. HOwever, in the Reform tradition of Judaism, they ARE Jewish. I am also descendant of anusi people...Sephardic Jews from my paternal side. Jews lived in the West from many times before. There are quite a few Indian Jews. Maybe you should read a book sometimes. Please know this fact, most Indians are mixed. There are few fullbloods...and if you think they look fullblood, it is because you do not know our history nor our peoples. How dare you!
> 
> ...


 
First of all I'm not reading all of that. Secondly, I do not care nor am I impressed. 

I told you what the Lord told me to tell you. I do not care if you accept or reject it. Neither is it for me to justify what He says or interpret. Again you play the victim the poor woe is me, everybody is after me. Again, I'm not impressed nor do I care. Oh and how Christian are YOU?


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 10, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> I was what? Indian or Jewish? I'm anusi. Google that. As far as conversion is concerned...yes, I'm seriously considering a Jewish conversion. Does my family attend shul? Absolutely. I've already begun the process, years ago. Is my mindset Jewish? ABsolutely and getting more Jewish while reading your crap. There are rabbis who return lost Jews honey. But I don't expect you to understand that. It's too complicated and you'll just have to learn about it on your own. No time to splain! But nooooo, I can't claim any of my Jewish ancestors who intermarried with Indians and AFricans because I'm a single Black mother.
> 
> I don't see a problem with learning anything about everything. Of course, I am my mother and father's daughter...both sets of parents. More importantly, I come from the G-d who made me the sum of all my ancestral parts. BTW, my bio father keeps shabbos and my adoptive father of blessed memory attended shul for many years. The siddurim I have in my house came from him. Good L-rd. You bit off too much honey. I don't have a problem...I don't judge who's going to hell or not. You seem to be UBER preoccupied with it like G-d's got you on speed dial or something. You got the Book of Life on your library shelf or something? I thought G-d made those entries.
> 
> I do not believe for any moment that MY G-d told you anything at all. You are making this false prophet story up because you cannot fathom my existence. That's okay honey, I didn't ask for your acceptance...already got it from Creator. Yes...YES, I certainly do believe all these things. G-d, Jesus, Wakan Tanka, the L-rd, whoever you wish to call Him...I believe in the Higher One.


 
I told you what He said. He told me to tell you not to MAKE you accept or understand it. Of course it's the poor victim GV reading more into the post than what I said. Who said you were going to hell Don't be such a drama queen.


----------



## Almaz (Mar 10, 2009)

I dont' think she is playing the victim here. G-d talks to all of us


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 10, 2009)

Ms.Honey said:


> First of all I'm not reading all of that. Secondly, I do not care nor am I impressed.
> 
> I told you what the Lord told me to tell you. I do not care if you accept or reject it. Neither is it for me to justify what He says or interpret. Again you play the victim the poor woe is me, everybody is after me. Again, I'm not impressed nor do I care. Oh and how Christian are YOU?


 
You know what they did to false prophets, right?  If G-d wishes to tell me some insult, I am right here!!!  Oh wait, I worship the One True G-d.  How christian am I?  If you are the criteria from which I must base my judgement of what a christian is, then I am a damned pagan and I welcome it. 

I am no drama queen.  You are judgmental.  How can G-d MAKE me accept your interpretation of whatever?  All people can speak to G-d.  Maybe you should come with us to Oklahoma this summer and we'll sit by the sacred fires, consume peyote cactus and get closer to the Great Spirit.  Aho sister!


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## Almaz (Mar 10, 2009)

Drama queen. Again how is that drama when someone is stating their experience. I don't see victim here. . IMO.


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 10, 2009)

Irresistible said:


> I have to ask
> 
> why would God tell anyone they are a black (as if color matters to him) single (like she wouldnt know that already) Mother (as though she thought otherwise)
> 
> ...


 
The message wasn't for you or me or anyone but her so we don't have to understand. And since when didn't God offend?


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## Almaz (Mar 10, 2009)

G-d told you to tell her. Sorry that sounds kind of weird to me.


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 10, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> You know what they did to false prophets, right? If G-d wishes to tell me some insult, I am right here!!! Oh wait, I worship the One True G-d. How christian am I? If you are the criteria from which I must base my judgement of what a christian is, then I am a damned pagan and I welcome it.


 
Again, accept or reject, it's up to you. It was not an insult, YOU saw it as such. And AGAIN who said I was the criteria? Drama.


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## Irresistible (Mar 10, 2009)

Ms.Honey said:


> The message wasn't for you or me or anyone but her so we don't have to understand. And since when didn't God offend?



well I just happened to be here and read it

God would not be so offensive as this and petty to bring her into rememberance that she is a black, single, mother

as though he would deny her to know other parts of her heritage and bloodlines, as though her only claiming that , would bring her closer to him-sorry I just dont get that

why would God make such a point? when it seems so pointless


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## Almaz (Mar 10, 2009)

Drama again I don't see the drama. But when people are saying G-d told them this and that and to tell you he said this. That is Dramatic to me. Sorry. Interesting.


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 10, 2009)

Irresistible said:


> well I just happened to be here and read it
> 
> God would not be so offensive as this and petty to bring her into rememberance that she is a black, single, mother
> 
> ...


 
Iris that is NOT what I said. That was not the intent. Again it was NOT for you to understand.


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## Almaz (Mar 10, 2009)

I agree on this



Irresistible said:


> well I just happened to be here and read it
> 
> God would not be so offensive as this and petty to bring her into rememberance that she is a black, single, mother
> 
> ...


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 10, 2009)

Ms.Honey said:


> Again, accept or reject, it's up to you. It was not an insult, YOU saw it as such. And AGAIN who said I was the criteria? Drama.


 

Nope, ma'am.  I outright refuse YOUR insults.  I am who I am.  Black Indian and proud.  You seem not to understand what that means.  My Nations are the first on this land.  We were blessed by the unfortunate mistreatment of the Africans...but they came into being in our bloodline and gave us their strength.  America is not my nation...Muskogee is my Nation.. G-d -ordained.  Are there Africans?  Are they all Angolan or are some of them Nigerian?  Or should they just be Black?  Nationhood....Nationhood...culture...culture.....you simply do not comprehend.  That does not erase me, my family nor my pride in who G-d Himself made me to be.  

What I would like for people to know about us Black Indians.  We come from our Nations, FIRST Nations...The U.S. is a Nazi regime!  It is actively involved in our continued genocide.  THey sought war against us and continue to do so because they cannot live in the truth.  They  have no room to allow a person to be what G-d made him.  They want everything, even your very soul.  This is unacceptable to the Indian.  This is unacceptable to the African.  I am not part Indian...not my leg, my eye, my ear, my butt cheek. * I AM Native American.*  This is my history and heritage and_* this is what a Black Indian with African descent is.*_  My granny lived on the "rez" .  My grandpappy was born in the Nation.  My parents were born in and of the Nations.  If that don't make us Injuns, hell if I don't know what will.  BTW, there are several Black Indians member of LHCF.  Oh, and G-d told me this that I am!!!  Hoka!!!!


Thank you.  I certainly thank you today.  I wear my feathers proud.  Estelusti woman, Warrior Woman that I am.  I have fought a good fight and you are the defeated enemy.  My ancestors are smiling on me tonight and I am one with them.  This is a great day!


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## Irresistible (Mar 10, 2009)

Ms.Honey said:


> Iris that is NOT what I said. That was not the intent. Again it was NOT for you to understand.



okay, your right because right now I just cant

I will just leave it between you God and her

ETA with Respect!


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 10, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Nope, ma'am. I outright refuse YOUR insults. I am who I am. Black Indian and proud. You seem not to understand what that means. My Nations are the first on this land. We were blessed by the unfortunate mistreatment of the Africans...but they came into being in our bloodline. America is not my nation...Muskogee is my Nation.. G-d -ordained. Are there Africans? Are they all Angolan or are some of them Nigerian? Or should they just be Black? Nationhood....Nationhood...culture...culture.....you simply do not comprehend. That does not erase me, my family nor my pride in who G-d Himself made me to be.
> 
> 
> Thank you. I certainly thank you today. I wear my feathers proud. Estelusti woman, Warrior Woman that I am. I have fought a good fight and you are the defeated enemy. My ancestors are smiling on me tonight and I am one with them. This is a great day!


 
You threw a tantrum tonight. I'm not your enemy, only in your head. If you found being a black, single mom insulting then that's you.


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## divya (Mar 10, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> That the fact that the world is in a state of chaos is evidence the triumphant has not come.  We are still waiting for the messiah to make it right.  I listen, simply.
> 
> When you are in a multi-faith/cultural family, you do not teach that one is right and the other wrong.  You learn to live together in harmony and expose yourself to each.  I guess one thing that is common with my beliefs and family, we do not condemn anybody to hell.  That, I do not believe in.



Interesting.  I respect your choice not to choose, regardless of disagreement on the approach. Growing up and in the present, we do condemn anyone to hell either.  That certainly not Christian, and the salvation of another person is only for God to decide.   We were taught right and wrong or rather truth and error though, even though our family is multicultural. I suppose it may be different because my parents profess the same faith, but my grandparents professed Catholicism, Hinduism, Shango, and Atheism. We simply learned that every person is responsible for the light that God reveals to us.  We will all have a decision to make in our lives to accept or reject truth, and my prayer is that we all accept it.


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## Almaz (Mar 10, 2009)

Let it go y'all let it go.  Lets just say there probably won't be real peace in our lifetimes. But I wish peace for everyone


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 10, 2009)

Ms.Honey said:


> You threw a tantrum tonight. I'm not your enemy, only in your head. If you found being a black, single mom insulting then that's you.


 

Ms Honey, are you American?  You're Black right?  Why not go call yourself a pygmy from  Congo...Fulani Nigerian, Bantu from S. Africa, Hottentot?  Everybody knows that Black people cannot be Americans.  Everybody knows that Africans don't really have culture and no nations...they are just Blacks.  No history, no heritage distinct from anything other than Black.  Americans are white people.  I've seen it on a brochure.  Isn't that a load of crock?  Sure you're American.  Africa is full of wonderful nations of peoples...with distinct tribes and peoples in each country.  Nobody can deny that...and nobody should deny another's existence.

You are angry that G-d made me what I am.  If my existence offends you, I am sorry...and I feel sorry for you.  I too know pain, pain of being Indian...from red, white and Black sides of rejection too.  Still, I'm here, I'm right here.  G-d placed me here just like I am.    Please know, your culture and history are wonderful and you should embrace it.  No one should feel inferior to another.  We are all children from one Creator.

No, I do not find Black single mother offensive, only when I'm called one and the person calling me one attempts to say that G-d told her to tell me that when she knows He didn't.  Only when that person attempts to deny the very truth of what I am...a Black Indian woman with 4 lovely 1/2 Jewish Ethio kids who is a divorcee....I am not a single mother in the sense I had children out of wedlock.  The very fact I am divorced is not a stigma either.  There is a reason for that and I am whole from it.  You still do not comprehend.  But I suspect we are getting there.


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 10, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Ms Honey, are you American? You're Black right? Why not go call yourself a pygmy from Congo...Fulani Nigerian, Bantu from S. Africa, Hottentot? Everybody knows that Black people cannot be Americans. Everybody knows that Africans don't really have culture and no nations...they are just Blacks. No history, no heritage distinct from anything other than Black. Americans are white people. I've seen it on a brochure. Isn't that a load of crock? Sure you're American. Africa if full of wonderful nations of peoples...with distinct tribes and peoples in each country. Nobody can deny that...and nobody should deny another's existence.
> 
> You are angry that G-d made me what I am. If my existence offends you, I am sorry...and I feel sorry for you. I too know pain, pain of being Indian...from red, white and Black sides of rejection too. Still, I'm here, I'm right here. G-d placed me here just like I am.  Please know, your culture and history are wonderful and you should embrace it. No one should feel inferior to another. We are all children from one Creator.


 
You are going wayyyyy off center with this GV. If you do not want to accept the word then don't. I do not lie on God, you're not important or unimportant enough for me to anger Him. I do not put words into His mouth or say He said something when He didn't. You have gone off on a tangent instead of reading what I actually said. Accept ALL of you. I do. We all should.

I know my heritage just as much as you do dear. I do believe that it is important for all to know if they can. Yes I am black, yes I am American, yes I have other races in my blood. Yes I am Christian and yes, God said it.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 10, 2009)

Ms.Honey said:


> You are going wayyyyy off center with this GV. If you do not want to accept the word then don't. I do not lie on God, you're not important or unimportant enough for me to anger Him. I do not put words into His mouth or say He said something when He didn't. You have gone off on a tangent instead of reading what I actually said. Accept ALL of you. I do. We all should.
> 
> I know my heritage just as much as you do dear. I do believe that it is important for all to know if they can. Yes I am black, yes I am American, yes I have other races in my blood. Yes I am Christian and yes, God said it.


 

It's not G-d's word, it is a figment of your imagination.  I've not gone off on a tangent, I gone off and proved you wrong.  I read exactly what you said...not what G-d said.  G-d is right here, right beside me.  I am glad you know your heritage.  That does not make your heritage mine, whether you have diff. races or not.  Like I said before, OUR NATIONS were here first.  I am a child of it.  G-d did not tell you to say those things to me.  You told yourself those things.  G-d speaks to me MsHoney.  I am not hiding from Him.  I seek Him daily.  My ancestors speak to me and I commune with them often as well.


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## divya (Mar 10, 2009)

OK ladies, let us just respect each other's identity. God has made us beautiful in all of our diversity. So the Israel and Palestine issue...


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## Almaz (Mar 10, 2009)

Let it go. Let it go. she is what she is and you are what you are. That is great. Again what is going on in the middle east has been going on before the bible and surely I dont' think in my lifetime that there will be peace. It is a lot more to it than Arabs and Jews. Christians are being persecuted in the Middle East Everyday. Chaldeans, Assryrians, they are being kidnapped and killed for ransom in Iraq as we speak. That is wrong. 

Lets just pray for peace.


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 10, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> It's not G-d's word, it is a figment of your imagination. I've not gone off on a tangent, I gone off and proved you wrong. I read exactly what you said...not what G-d said. G-d is right here, right beside me. I am glad you know your heritage. That does not make your heritage mine, whether you have diff. races or not. Like I said before, OUR NATIONS were here first. I am a child of it. G-d did not tell you to say those things to me. You told yourself those things. G-d speaks to me MsHoney. I am not hiding from Him. I seek Him daily. My ancestors speak to me and I commune with them often as well.


 
I said what I said and what He told me to say. I'm not going to argue with you about this or try to prove to ANYONE what the Lord has said but you can continue to do so by yourself. Accept or reject.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 11, 2009)

There are going to be concessions but I don't want to see Jerusalem going to full control by the Palestinians.  Jerusalem must remain Jewish.


-------------------------------
BTW, My G-d told your g-d to shut the hell up!  And you know who you are.


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 11, 2009)

I said what I said and what He told me to say. I'm not going to argue with you about this or try to prove to ANYONE what the Lord has said but you can continue to do so by yourself. Accept or reject.


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## Irresistible (Mar 11, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> There are going to be concessions but I don't want to see Jerusalem going to full control by the Palestinians.  Jerusalem must remain Jewish.
> 
> 
> -------------------------------
> BTW, My G-d told your g-d to shut the hell up!  And you know who you are.



lol girl , the tag!

stop it! 

I know your mad, but stop it ya'll , just stop.  please?


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## Almaz (Mar 11, 2009)

Is anyone aware how the Christian Palestians are being kicked out of Bethlehem. A few years ago when I was in Israel visiting relatives. I have a Pali-Christian Friend who is the Jewelry business like many members of my family. Well when the PLO took over that city they went into the church where Jesus was born defecated and used the bibles as toliet paper. They told my friend he had one day to leave the shop. They are so stupid so we got a truck loaded all the contents into the truck drove to Tel-Aviv. The next day he was on a Plane to my house in Chicago and I was shipping his things to him. Some guy from the PLO called his Pelephone and told asked him WHY did you take everything out of the store. He retorted I thought you said to leave the building you did not say to leave everything. 

You know this man said. Oh you have been listening to those Jews. They are smart people. We are going to kill you. Now he is in Chicago with his business. Glad I could help wrong is wrong. We are still best of friends today. In fact I saw him today his wife had a baby girl and they named her Almaz. I am so happy I am an Auntie


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 11, 2009)

divya said:


> OK ladies, let us just respect each other's identity. God has made us beautiful in all of our diversity. So the Israel and Palestine issue...


 
We will have quiet but no real peace in Israel until Jesus returns. The scriptures make that clear in Revelations.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 11, 2009)

Irresistible said:


> lol girl , the tag!
> 
> stop it!
> 
> I know your mad, but stop it ya'll , just stop. please?


 


Okay.  I'm just saying   heya heya  hey!!!


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 11, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Is anyone aware how the Christian Palestians are being kicked out of Bethlehem. A few years ago when I was in Israel visiting relatives. I have a Pali-Christian Friend who is the Jewelry business like many members of my family. Well when the PLO took over that city they went into the church where Jesus was born defecated and used the bibles as toliet paper. They told my friend he had one day to leave the shop. They are so stupid so we got a truck loaded all the contents into the truck drove to Tel-Aviv. The next day he was on a Plane to my house in Chicago and I was shipping his things to him. Some guy from the PLO called his Pelephone and told asked him WHY did you take everything out of the store. He retorted I thought you said to leave the building you did not say to leave everything.
> 
> You know this man said. Oh you have been listening to those Jews. They are smart people. We are going to kill you. Now he is in Chicago with his business. Glad I could help wrong is wrong. We are still best of friends today. In fact I saw him today his wife had a baby girl and they named her Almaz. I am so happy I am an Auntie


 
I think most people on both sides want a peaceful solution but the extremist on both sides want the destruction of the other. The peaceful folks are caught in the middle and ALL are suffering.


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## divya (Mar 11, 2009)

Ms.Honey said:


> We will have quiet but no real peace in Israel until Jesus returns. The scriptures make that clear in Revelations.



 Yes, I am actually looking for the text. It would be good for us to study the Scriptures for a better understanding of this situation. Maybe the OP will then come back for deeper discussion.


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 11, 2009)

divya said:


> Yes, I am actually looking for the text. It would be good for us to study the Scriptures for a better understanding of this situation. Maybe the OP will then come back for deeper discussion.


 
It's in Daniel too and I want to say Isaiah and Jeremiah. Do you recall the exact scripture in the OT that says Jesus wouldn't be accepted by the Jews until His second coming and He will usher in peace to Israel or Jerusalem? I know Revelation states that the Jews will preach the gospel and get many saved but I can't recall the OT scripture.


----------



## Almaz (Mar 11, 2009)

Again that is your belief and the belief of many others and I respect that. 

Thank you 



Ms.Honey said:


> We will have quiet but no real peace in Israel until Jesus returns. The scriptures make that clear in Revelations.


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 11, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Again that is your belief and the belief of many others and I respect that.
> 
> Thank you


 
This is the Christian forum where Christians express their beliefs without having to justify it.


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## Almaz (Mar 11, 2009)

Now THAT I will totally agree on you with. It is Always the peaceful people that are caught in the middle


quote=Ms.Honey;7311461]I think most people on both sides want a peaceful solution but the extremist on both sides want the destruction of the other. The peaceful folks are caught in the middle and ALL are suffering.[/quote]


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## Almaz (Mar 11, 2009)

Again I respect that too. You don't have to justify anything with me. I respect what you believe even if I don't agree with it. 

Is all I am saying. It is all about respecting the other persons point of view



Ms.Honey said:


> This is the Christian forum where Christians express their beliefs without having to justify it.


----------



## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 11, 2009)

Yes, and I wonder just how many people realize that Palestinians also attempt to destroy ancient Jewish shrines and what not in an attempt to destroy archaeological evidence of a continuous Jewish presence in Israel. And how many people know that Palestinian christians regularly got their homes and businesses bulldozed by the PA just because...esp. when someone supported an Israeli opinion or policy openly.  They just bulldozed it.  Some of these homes have been continually passed down through the family for generations...and somebody bulldozes your abode.  You have no where else to go.  It's a shame.  I just wish people would realize why Israel takes a military stance on this situation...because they are at war with an entity intent upon destroying them right in their own backyard.  Jewish survival worldwide depends upon the existence of the State of Israel.  War is always dirty.  Bashir 's death and the Christian Phalangists who massacred hundreds in Sabra and Shattila?    People don't equally realize that Lebanon is a christian country overrun by Palestinians now.  Christians there are in serious danger and it's their own country, not that of the muslims.  I'm not blaming anybody of islamic faith but far too often, this conflict is the result of religious wars.  They do not want a Jewish presence nor a christian one in the Middle-east.


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 11, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Again I respect that too. You don't have to justify anything with me. I respect what you believe even if I don't agree with it.
> 
> Is all I am saying. It is all about respecting the other persons point of view


 
Very true but what I'm saying is that she wanted a Christian persective and therefore posted it in the Christian forum so in the Christian forum I give a Christian perspective without having to say according to the Christian point of view.


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## Almaz (Mar 11, 2009)

Okay. I must say I have learned a lot. 



Ms.Honey said:


> Very true but what I'm saying is that she wanted a Christian persective and therefore posted it in the Christian forum so in the Christian forum I give a Christian perspective without having to say according to the Christian point of view.


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## Almaz (Mar 11, 2009)

Yes I remembered when they killed Bashir and that is when the fit hit the shan. And all heck broke loose. Exactly 2 weeks later I was in Boot camp in the IDF. Shaved head ready to go. Lost 2 cousins in that war. The Lebanese were so kind to let the Palestians in Lebanon in the first place becuase a lot of those people were kicked out of Jordan when Arafat plotted a failed Coup de Tat in the 70's and killed over 10,000 Palistinans. I remember those days well.  It was a rough time.  

War is hell





GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Yes, and I wonder just how many people realize that Palestinians also attempt to destroy ancient Jewish shrines and what not in an attempt to destroy archaeological evidence of a continuous Jewish presence in Israel. And how many people know that Palestinian christians regularly got their homes and businesses bulldozed by the PA just because...esp. when someone supported an Israeli opinion or policy openly. They just bulldozed it. Some of these homes have been continually passed down through the family for generations...and somebody bulldozes your abode. You have no where else to go. It's a shame. I just wish people would realize why Israel takes a military stance on this situation...because they are at war with an entity intent upon destroying them right in their own backyard. Jewish survival worldwide depends upon the existence of the State of Israel. War is always dirty. Bashir 's death and the Christian Phalangists who massacred hundreds in Sabra and Shattila? People don't equally realize that Lebanon is a christian country overrun by Palestinians now. Christians there are in serious danger and it's their own country, not that of the muslims. I'm not blaming anybody of islamic faith but far too often, this conflict is the result of religious wars. They do not want a Jewish presence nor a christian one in the Middle-east.


----------



## Crackers Phinn (Mar 11, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Okay. I must say I have learned a lot.



I have learned that just when I thought I have heard it all, somebody is going to surprise me.  
~~~~~~~~

A peace treaty isn't worth the paper it's written on.  There is an economic and social interest in keeping the fighting going on in that region so the fighting will continue.  

The okie doke that keeps minorities fighting in this country is part of the problem over there and there are intricacies to the issue that people outside the equation don't and won't understand.  

Bush being an idiot aside, the war in Iraq/Afghanistan is unfightable because the art of war does not apply to this arena.  The outside world has tried to conquer the middle east for 2 millenia unsuccessfully because they can't get a grasp of what's really hood with the situation.  

So it does come down to being a part or having an attachment to that area of the world to understand why the unrest has gone on for so long and will continue to do so.  There are ramifications either way for the entire middle east depending on the end result of the Israel/Palestine conflict. 

...that was a mouth full.....


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## Almaz (Mar 11, 2009)

You are right. They don't and won't understand



JCoily said:


> I have learned that just when I thought I have heard it all, somebody is going to surprise me.
> ~~~~~~~~
> 
> A peace treaty isn't worth the paper it's written on. There is an economic and social interest in keeping the fighting going on in that region so the fighting will continue.
> ...


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## Mortons (Mar 11, 2009)

My my how false prophets and liars abound. No, I don't think that a treaty between Isreal and Palestine will happen. I'm still waiting for someone to explain why NOW at this time is this belief prevalent than any other time?


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 11, 2009)

JCoily said:


> I have learned that just when I thought I have heard it all, somebody is going to surprise me.
> ~~~~~~~~
> 
> A peace treaty isn't worth the paper it's written on. There is an economic and social interest in keeping the fighting going on in that region so the fighting will continue.
> ...


 
So someone who has studied the conflict or someone who has studied foreign policy etc. CAN'T understand what is REALLY going on in Israel and with the conflict because they're not "attached" to Israel? Yeah, that was a mouthful.


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 11, 2009)

HeatSeeker said:


> My my how false prophets and liars abound. No, I don't think that a treaty between Isreal and Palestine will happen. I'm still waiting for someone to explain why NOW at this time is this belief prevalent than any other time?


 
Because we have a black president the world is either gonna change for the better and we're gonna all hold hands and sing while drinking Coca Cola OR because we have a black president he can only be the foretold anti christ cuz ain't no way God would let THAT happen. Must be then end of the world

Every generation believes that in their lifetime peace will be accomplished in the middle east. And the Christians, Jews and Muslims all have their eyes on Israel and are watching that situation closer than all other world conflicts.


----------



## Crackers Phinn (Mar 11, 2009)

Ms.Honey said:


> So someone who has studied the conflict or someone who has studied foreign policy etc. CAN'T understand what is REALLY going on in Israel and with the conflict because they're not "attached" to Israel? Yeah, that was a mouthful.



So you just go completely overlook the whole '2000 years of outsiders misunderstanding the middle east' analogy to ask me that question.

NO. THEY. CAN'T.

Wanna know what the best foreign policy minds in the world say about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?  "It's complicated."  

Hence, the no end of fighting or diplomatic action on the part of Western countries is anywhere in sight.


----------



## divya (Mar 11, 2009)

JCoily said:


> I have learned that just when I thought I have heard it all, somebody is going to surprise me.
> ~~~~~~~~
> 
> *A peace treaty isn't worth the paper it's written on.  There is an economic and social interest in keeping the fighting going on in that region so the fighting will continue.*
> ...



This is clear as day to me, and I certainly don't have an attachment to the area. Some of us have been stating this for a long time, which is why we opposed the war in Iraq.  Also please note though, that Western countries are just that. There are many people from other parts of the world who oppose trying to go into the Middle East for similar reasons that you have noted. So while people may not have a firsthand experience there, certain things are apparent to some. 

As far as Bush and some others are concerned,  they thought that they would be able to go in there and do as often has happened in the past. It's a attitude common to a number of people in the West. Drop a few bombs and get their way. That hasn't happen because as you said, there are other issues at play...


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## divya (Mar 11, 2009)

Ms.Honey said:


> Because we have a black president the world is either gonna change for the better and we're gonna all hold hands and sing while drinking Coca Cola OR because we have a black president he can only be the foretold anti christ cuz ain't no way God would let THAT happen. Must be then end of the world



  



Ms.Honey said:


> Every generation believes that* in their lifetime peace will be accomplished in the middle east*. And the Christians, Jews and Muslims all have their eyes on Israel and are watching that situation closer than all other world conflicts.



Definitely fooling themselves...


----------



## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 11, 2009)

JCoily said:


> I have learned that just when I thought I have heard it all, somebody is going to surprise me.
> ~~~~~~~~
> 
> A peace treaty isn't worth the paper it's written on. *There is an economic and social interest in keeping the fighting going on in that region* so the fighting will continue.
> ...


 

Yes, to the first.  Palestinian people who want peace are sick and tired of all this.  At the end of the day, they want bread and clean water like anybody else.  It's a shame, really.  They have been so mistreated by all their Arab  brethern for millennia.  


Absolutely, to the second.  We here pretend not to comprehend these issues but our govt. absolutely does...energy sources and securing our presence there.  It's all a business deal and they could care less about the historic implications of it all.  And when I look at the state of the world and the growing anti-semitism, even from christian people who previously supported Israel at all costs, I become worried.  Palestinians play the victim and should win an Oscar for it.  There is unrest and unfairness both sides, but folks just don't realize how much they get sympathy for playing that victimization to the tee!  

I'm so glad to be reading a more balanced discussion of the issues.


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 11, 2009)

JCoily said:


> So you just go completely overlook the whole '2000 years of outsiders misunderstanding the middle east' analogy to ask me that question.
> 
> NO. THEY. CAN'T.
> 
> ...


 
What's hard to understand? 
1) It's a HOLY WAR and they hate each other.
2)From the time, no wait, even BEFORE God gave Canaan to the Jews there have been holy wars in the region. Far longer than both Judaism and Christianity.
3)Abraham's sons, Ishmael and Isaac are STILL fighting after thousands of years.
4)Israel is the exact center/middle of the earth and everybody wants it.
5) The three major religions on the earth want control of Israel and are fighting bloody hard to get it.
6)There are extremists on BOTH sides of this unrest among the people and the leaders, some just more subtle in their actions than the other.
7)Both sides feel that they have the legal and holy right to dwell sovereignly over the region.
8) God rent part of Israel, the parts that are being fought over, out of Israel's hand because of the kings disobedience.
9) Except for during King Solomon's reign, there has been fighting and wars in Israel. There has been quiet but no real peace.
10) Israel even had civil wars between the Jews themselves.

Found all of this out before I became a born again believer by watching the news and BBC news and NPR "History's Mysteries", "Unlocking the Bible" or something like that  biblical shows and various PBS, TLC and Discovery channel shows and documentaries.

There are people who make their living studying this conflict who are not "attached" to Israel and they have a pretty good grasp on what's going on. We may feel more emotional than others about the conflict BUT that does not mean others have not been able to accurately assess what is the root cause of what's going on in Israel. The "complicated" part is that no one can figure out why they can't come to a peaceful and reasonable solution that will finally end it. The reason is because there will be wars and rumors of wars.............. 



*UNTIL.JESUS.RETURNS!!!!!!!! Amen and Amen.*


----------



## Crackers Phinn (Mar 11, 2009)

Ms.Honey said:


> What's hard to understand?



I stand corrected.

You got it all figured out.


----------



## Almaz (Mar 11, 2009)

Wow and you found ALLLL this out by watching TV and being born again. HOW interesting. And guess what YOU dont' have the answer either.


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 11, 2009)

JCoily said:


> I stand corrected.
> 
> You got it all figured out.


 Umm, that wasn't a slight towards you but a reference to "'2000 years of outsiders* misunderstanding* the middle east' "

I'm saying what's hard to understand about what's going on?


----------



## Almaz (Mar 11, 2009)

Glad you found this out recently. Good for you. 






Ms.Honey said:


> What's hard to understand?
> 1) It's a HOLY WAR and they hate each other.
> 2)From the time, no wait, even BEFORE God gave Canaan to the Jews there have been holy wars in the region. Far longer than both Judaism and Christianity.
> 3)Abraham's sons, Ishmael and Isaac are STILL fighting after thousands of years.
> ...


----------



## Almaz (Mar 11, 2009)

Yeah OUTSIDERS. People who are NOT attached to the land and have nothing to really offer. But false hopes and lies. 

Yep Outsiders. 





Ms.Honey said:


> Umm, that wasn't a slight towards you but a reference to "'2000 years of outsiders* misunderstanding* the middle east' "
> 
> I'm saying what's hard to understand about what's going on?


----------



## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 11, 2009)

Ms.Honey said:


> What's hard to understand?
> 1) It's a HOLY WAR and they hate each other.
> *.*


 

I'd like to say addressing this situation only that Jews do not hate Palestinians.  There are prejudiced people worldwide who hate their very own.   But a Jew would give a stranded person  a ride 2,000 miles away, cook and feed and clothe you from scratch on a Shabbat.  THey would go that far to sacrifice to preserve human life.  People largely do not comprehend that it's Jews that are hated.


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 11, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Wow and you found ALLLL this out by watching TV and being born again. HOW interesting. And guess what YOU dont' have the answer either.


 
No, if you had read what I said, I said I found out all of that BEFORE I became born again. I do have the answer and have stated it. You just disagree with the answer.


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## Almaz (Mar 11, 2009)

yes I even read Arabic Media when they say oh jews have a love of life and will do anything to preserve it.  This is what I read in Al-Ahram the Egyptian daily


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 11, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> I'd like to say addressing this situation only that Jews do not hate Palestinians. There are prejudiced people worldwide who hate their very own. But a Jew would give a stranded person a ride 2,000 miles away, cook and feed and clothe you from scratch on a Shabbat. THey would go that far to sacrifice to preserve human life. People largely do not comprehend that it's Jews that are hated.


 
Not true. Denying medical help, food and clean water to civilians is NOT a show of sacrifice to preserve human life.

*BOTH* sides are exhibiting hatred towards each other. No one side is completely innocent in this thing. No one side can play the poor innocent victim, not the Palestinians and not the Jews.


----------



## Almaz (Mar 11, 2009)

Yes I CAN read and I do disagree on some points. 





Ms.Honey said:


> No, if you had read what I said, I said I found out all of that BEFORE I became born again. I do have the answer and have stated it. You just disagree with the answer.


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 11, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Yeah OUTSIDERS. People who are NOT attached to the land and have nothing to really offer. But false hopes and lies.
> 
> Yep Outsiders.


 
So should the "OUTSIDERS" stop OFFERING their political and financial support to the "enlightened attached ones"? Yeah, I didn't think so.


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 11, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Yes I CAN read and I do disagree on some points.


 
I didn't say you CAN'T read, I said you HADN'T read. There is a difference.


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## Almaz (Mar 11, 2009)

Denying oh you have reading the biased Media again. 



Ms.Honey said:


> Not true. Denying medical help, food and clean water to civilians is NOT a show of sacrifice to preserve human life.
> 
> *BOTH* sides are exhibiting hatred towards each other. No one side is completely innocent in this thing. No one side can play the poor innocent victim, not the Palestinians and not the Jews.


----------



## Almaz (Mar 11, 2009)

maybe you should move this to a political forum because when you talk of that Region it is Politics and Religion.


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 11, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Denying oh you have reading the biased Media again.


 
All media that doesn't report that Israeli's have rainbows shooting out of their mouths are biased  Oh AND anti-semitic.


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 11, 2009)

Almaz said:


> maybe you should move this to a political forum because when you talk of that Region it is Politics and Religion.


 
You can always start a thread in the Political Forum. Why are you so pressed to have this particular thread moved?


----------



## Almaz (Mar 11, 2009)

Never said that either I just know it is biased. Just like you know you are SAVED





Ms.Honey said:


> All media that doesn't report that Israeli's have rainbows shooting out of their mouths are biased  Oh AND anti-semitic.


----------



## Almaz (Mar 11, 2009)

Because it think it would be better there. Cause now we are talking politics



Ms.Honey said:


> You can always start a thread in the Political Forum. Why are you so pressed to have this particular thread moved?


----------



## Almaz (Mar 11, 2009)

Egypt gets way more support than Israel. And if you did. WE Jews would find a way. Believe me. We have our own technology. And brains. All the good Jewish Lawyers Doctors, Bankers and Business people I am sure we could find a way. And Guess what Israel gives money to support the Palis but you never read that in the media either. 


Ms.Honey said:


> So should the "OUTSIDERS" stop OFFERING their political and financial support to the "enlightened attached ones"? Yeah, I didn't think so.


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 11, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Never said that either I just know it is biased. Just like you know you are SAVED


I'm saved and you are the elite, oops I mean elect of God. Isn't life wonderful?


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## Almaz (Mar 11, 2009)

Elect of G-d no. Elite yeah sure I'll take that LOLOL




Ms.Honey said:


> I'm saved and you are the elite, oops I mean elect of God. Isn't life wonderful?


----------



## Almaz (Mar 11, 2009)

Life is wonderful for me.  I am just here to learn and see other viewpoints. No harm done.


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 11, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Egypt gets way more support than Israel. And if you did. WE Jews would find a way. Believe me. We have our own technology. And brains. All the good Jewish Lawyers Doctors, Bankers and Business people I am sure we could find a way. And Guess what Israel gives money to support the Palis but you never read that in the media either.


 
BUT yet and still you have NOT found a way. 

I've never read it in Israeli online news papers either, hmmmm. Oh do you mean after they've bombed them and fenced them in? Now that I think of it I have read about the great love the Israeli's have for those hateful Palestinians.

BOTH sides are wrong and as long as BOTH sides play the victim BOTH sides will not see a quiet time in Israel. Neither side is willing to see the other sides valid points. Same could be said about this discussion too but I digress.


----------



## Almaz (Mar 11, 2009)

Yeah but the walls between the Egypt and Gaza is much older and much bigger but again no one knew about that until there was a breach and they were running over the Egytian Side.  Oslo. Every time we try to make peace we get bombed because in the PLO consititution their main goal is to drive Israel into the sea. None of the Arab nations come to their aid only to give weapons to kill innocent people. Some of them ARE hateful. Some Jewish people are hateful. And I come across a whole lot of hateful Blacks. People hate all over.






Ms.Honey said:


> BUT yet and still you have NOT found a way.
> 
> I've never read it in Israeli online news papers either, hmmmm. Oh do you mean after they've bombed them and fenced them in? Now that I think of it I have read about the great love the Israeli's have for those hateful Palestinians.
> 
> BOTH sides are wrong and as long as BOTH sides play the victim BOTH sides will not see a quiet time in Israel. Neither side is willing to see the other sides valid points. Same could be said about this discussion too but I digress.


----------



## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 11, 2009)

Ms.Honey said:


> Not true. Denying medical help, food and clean water to civilians is NOT a show of sacrifice to preserve human life.
> 
> *BOTH* sides are exhibiting hatred towards each other. No one side is completely innocent in this thing. No one side can play the poor innocent victim, not the Palestinians and not the Jews.


 

Actually, the Palestinians are playing innocent victims through their leadership and through Arab leaders who utilize them to demonstrate to the world that Jews are the world's enemy.  You cannot tell me that every Jew in Israel and abroad is hating Muslims, it simply is not true.  You are mistaking the errors committed by the military and the govt. (which many Israelis protest against) as the sentiment of Jews.  It is not.  Who sees the large protests headed by....Jews?  

Understanding comes from knowing and you do not have this...yet.  I truly hope you go to Israel and see the hospitals that treat Palestinians, Iraqis, Iranians, Egyptians and people from all over the world.  I hope you see the Jews in a day-to-day existence who are no different from people here.  I truly hope you see the missiles that come down and kill Jewish children, destroy settlements, homes and whole infrastructures.  I hope you see the Druze, the Israeli Arabs (non-Jews), the Israeli christians (Armenians, Greeks, Orthodox)...the very structure of Israeli society.  They are people like everyone else.  

We have our own Palestinian/Israeli conflict here...Mexicans.  Is every American hateful of them?  Absolutely not.  Are there errors committed by both sides to fuel these cartel wars and illegal immigration in which folks are basically slaves to big companies a reflection on the average American?  Does our border control commit genocide?  Um, yes.  It does so in the Caribbean by overturning boatloads of people.  Are average Americans murderors?  Absolutely not.  

People, nations become the face of the conflict between govt.'s.  It's not so simple to say that Jews do not love life nor sacrifice to preserve it.  It's not so simple to say "poor Palestinians" when they have been pawned over and over again to fuel the situation.  It is not so simple.  When the military has to strike Hamas leaders because they have or are planning to bomb and murderer Israelis by the hundreds, Palis put their familiesa nd children in the complexes, just before.  So when they are bombed, everbody in the world condems Israelis.  When Palis strap bombs to their young men and women and tell them they have a ticket to heaven by murdering people, everybody blames Israel because they "drove" them to it.  When Palis teach their toddlers in their version of Sesame Street, showing them with faux-bombs strapped to themselves and singing in unison, "Jews are dogs and pigs," everyone blames Israel.  When are Palis going to step up and say, "enough!"  Because they don't have that power due to their leadership and the outside muslim world.  They are pawns.  

We have a similar situation here in the U.S. and West in general in which muslims are not being heard because they don't speak out against the wrongs committed...suicide bombings, muslim clerics calling for the destruction of Israel and the U.S. and the West, honor killings, beheadings, etc.  There comes a point when a person has to stand rather than crawl.  And Israel has offered a peace plan numerous times...and it's been rejected because the money that fuels this pathetic "poor victim" is more attractive to the leadership.  Even the leadership in the Gaza and West Bank are having trouble doing anything good for it's own people,  Fatah, Hamas...nobody is seeing eye-to-eye and the bad influence is Syria and Iran.


----------



## Almaz (Mar 11, 2009)

Very well said. Exactly.  Today Rabah Geverit


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 11, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Yeah but the walls between the Egypt and Gaza is much older and much bigger but again no one knew about that until there was a breach and they were running over the Egytian Side. Oslo. Every time we try to make peace we get bombed because in the PLO consititution their main goal is to drive Israel into the sea. None of the Arab nations come to their aid only to give weapons to kill innocent people. Some of them ARE hateful. Some Jewish people are hateful. And I come across a whole lot of hateful Blacks. People hate all over.


 
What do hateful blacks have to do with this?

As I said before and will say again BOTH sides are guilty and no one side is without fault in this whole thing.


----------



## Almaz (Mar 11, 2009)

Just saying that are hateful people everywhere. And yes you are right no side is without fault that I will agree.  That is already known. Tell us something WE don't know. 

Thanks  




Ms.Honey said:


> What do hateful blacks have to do with this?
> 
> As I said before and will say again BOTH sides are guilty and no one side is without fault in this whole thing.


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 11, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Just saying that are hateful people everywhere. And yes you are right no side is without fault that I will agree. That is already known. Tell us something WE don't know.
> 
> Thanks


 
You go first.

There are hateful Jews also right?

I really wish we could get the perspective of some of the Muslim sisters on the board but since they're not known to lurk in the Christian forum like others we probably won't

BTW: I do lean more towards Israel's side in this but I'm not gonna sit and pretend that they aren't adding to this mess either. Israel has done some VERY cruddy stuff and have even said themselves that innocent Palestinians are getting hurt by them because of the radicals on the Palestinian side.


----------



## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 11, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Yeah but the walls between the Egypt and Gaza is much older and much bigger but again no one knew about that until there was a breach and they were running over the Egytian Side. Oslo. Every time we try to make peace we get bombed because in the PLO consititution their main goal is to drive Israel into the sea. None of the Arab nations come to their aid only to give weapons to kill innocent people. Some of them ARE hateful. Some Jewish people are hateful. *And I come across a whole lot of hateful Blacks.* People hate all over.


 
Oh my freaking gawd!  Yes, yes, and YES!!!  I never have experienced such hateful folks as in the last 2 years.  I'm in total shock about it...just can't comprehend it.  But onto the subject, people will only see what they want to see...not the realities of daily life in Israel.  They don't see the stress of the children, the poverty of Jewish children, the violence in schools because of a hopelessness being developed...that is actually worldwide but...anyhoo.  I know...Oscar Night Al-Arabiya!


----------



## Almaz (Mar 11, 2009)

Never said that some Jews dont' hate NEVER said that.  Most of the Muslim girls on here are NOT Arab and they have no connection to the region either outside of the relgion.  I would LOVE to get their perspective too one here instead of on PM telling me how obtuese this whole thing is. I am not saying one side is innocent and the other is not. Again that has been establish. 

See you in Israel.







Ms.Honey said:


> You go first.
> 
> There are hateful Jews also right?
> 
> ...


----------



## Almaz (Mar 11, 2009)

Listen JEWS don't even pretend. We critique our goverment and our policies. In Arab countries if you do that you can go to Jail and be killed. That is for SURE.


----------



## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 11, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Listen JEWS don't even pretend. We critique our goverment and our policies. In Arab countries if you do that you can go to Jail and be killed. That is for SURE.


 
Yes, cousin.  And as someone who actually lived in Iran, speaks the language since toddlerhood, lived in Israel, lived in a variety of nations in the Middle-east and in Eritrea/Ethiopia before the split, as well as several European and Western nations...I'd take your valued and educated and experienced opinion.  I know you, mamiye.  Now you see what I was telling you 2 years ago about all this.  Some have told me that this is not the general christian opinion.  And I truly hope not, but honestly, I have encountered so much of this to believe that it's rather true than more falsely a representation.  One thing is clear, few comprehend the realities of Israel.  I wish we had an Israeli Arab who is Muslim on here.


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## Almaz (Mar 11, 2009)

Thank you I appreciate that. 

See you in Israel this year.

Todah Rabah


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 11, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Never said that some Jews dont' hate NEVER said that. Most of the Muslim girls on here are NOT Arab and they have no connection to the region either outside of the relgion. I would LOVE to get their perspective too one here instead of on PM telling me how obtuese this whole thing is. I am not saying one side is innocent and the other is not. Again that has been establish.
> 
> See you in Israel.


 
But it is still their people dying they don't need to have stepped foot over there or have Arab relatives. All Jews aren't Israeli either and have no family either inside or outside of the region so does that mean that they can't understand what's going on? That's nonsense


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## Almaz (Mar 11, 2009)

Most of the Muslim girls that I have talked to on here are either West African Muslim are African American Converts. And most Jews have someone or knows someone there. Never said all Jews were Israeli. But Israel is a connection to most Jews whether they live there are not. If they agree or disagree with the policies. There are people dying her too.  Who said ALL Jews were Israeli. Could be every Jew can get an Israeli Passport. Whether you were born there or not. Under the law of Return. 






Ms.Honey said:


> But it is still their people dying they don't need to have stepped foot over there or have Arab relatives. All Jews aren't Israeli either and have no family either inside or outside of the region so does that mean that they can't understand what's going on? That's nonsense


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## metamorfhosis (Mar 12, 2009)

HeatSeeker said:


> My my how false prophets and liars abound. No, I don't think that a treaty between Isreal and Palestine will happen. I'm still waiting for someone to explain why NOW at this time is this belief prevalent than any other time?


 
 
Heat-

Someone told me to know the Word for myself. I pass that on to you. 

A treaty is supposed to happen with Israel. Back in the 70's everybody was like it's going to happen. But Carter signed a treaty with Egypt and Israel in 1979. President Clinton nearly signed the deal in 2000. More recently, there was some talk that it would happen with the Bush Administration since they were pushing a two state solution as well. There was some thought that Tony Blair who became a special envoy to the Middle East would get the job done. He still could. Now, Hillary is pushing a two state solution. That doesn't mean that the Obama Administration will sign THE treaty.

If a treaty is about to go down just like rumors from the past, then anyone could come out of hiding (since the Anti-Christ is in hiding and hasn't been revealed) to get the deal sealed. 

It's just like people have called everybody and their momma the Anti-Christ. A man like Hitler for example, had the "anti-christ" spirit (he was against Christ) but he wasn't THE Anti-Christ that will come. 

Now, I am going to provide some biblical references. You can of course look for your own. The treaty information is in Daniel 9:27 and  Revelation 13:1-10. You may need to read the entire book of Daniel for understanding. Click here for Daniel

According to eschatology, when the peace treaty is about to be signed, it may trigger the Rapture. I said may because we don't know the time only GOD does. 

 
*References: *

Daniel 9-You may need someone to explain which symbol represents what country

Bible.org: Survey of Bible Doctrine: The Future-Go to IV. The Tribulation Parts A and B


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## Irresistible (Mar 12, 2009)

metamorfhosis said:


> Heat-
> 
> Someone told me to know the Word for myself. I pass that on to you.
> 
> ...



Yeah this is going to very interesting to say the least

When this does happen,  then we really know........scripture is being fulfilled and it shall be fulfilled no matter what


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## divya (Mar 12, 2009)

Interesting. I didn't recognize that a peace treaty between Israel and Palestine is significant for many other Christians. My understanding of end-time prophecy is much different. There will be a "sudden" rather than "secret" second coming. Israel does not represent any significant aspect.

*
I Thess. 4:14 - 18*
_
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words._


These verses are another reason why I don't believe that people who die in Christ go straight to heaven either, but rather they "sleep" (in the grave) until the Second Coming. Then those people rise first and those who are alive join them in air.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 12, 2009)

divya said:


> _17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord._
> 
> _18Wherefore comfort one another with these words._
> 
> ...


 

I'm in territory I don't comprehend right now but I want to ask you what you think about communion of the saints...that the souls are in communication with those on earth.  I'm not talking about divining and dabbling in the occult or anything like that...but that they are here in another realm.  "Sleep" ..or asleep in christ...I wonder what that means.  Maybe there are those here who can explain purgatory and the final judgement?  Does it refer only to the body...but the soul is in heaven?


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## divya (Mar 12, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> I'm in territory I don't comprehend right now but I want to ask you what you think about communion of the saints...that the souls are in communication with those on earth.  I'm not talking about divining and dabbling in the occult or anything like that...but that they are here in another realm.  "Sleep" ..or asleep in christ...I wonder what that means.  Maybe there are those here who can explain purgatory and the final judgement?  Does it refer only to the body...but the soul is in heaven?



My belief is that each living person _is_ a living soul, and once the person dies, one ceases to be a soul. If the person dies in Christ, the person will remain in the ground until the Second Coming. 

*Genesis 2:7* _And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul._

I do not believe in any inner soul existing inside of an individual. You are a soul, and I am a soul. When we die, we return to the dust of the ground ,whether we die in Christ or not. I do not believe that many people are in heaven and communicating with people here.

*Ecclesiastes 9:5 * - _For the living know that they shall die: *but the dead know not any thing*, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten._

So death is an unconscious state, or as the verses in Thessalonians term it, "a sleep" until Christ returns. When Lazarus died, no inner soul went to heaven. The Scriptures state that he remained in the ground until Jesus called him. 

The issue with believing in a soul that goes to heaven or hell and never dies is that then the soul is actually granted immortality. And if the soul goes to heaven, who would Jesus be returning for? If people’s souls are burning in hell endlessly, then they have also been granted immortality or rather eternal life. That cannot be so because the Bible tells us that the gift of God is eternal life. 

*Romans 6:23 * _for the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. _

If we were born with immortal souls then the eternal life that Jesus gives to us would not be necessary.  In order to understand the state of the dead, hell, and the Second Coming, it requires study of the meaning of the different meanings of the word “forever” in Greek along with the verses in the Bible. After that, it is clear that the dead remain in the ground until the Second Coming.  Then a sequence of events take place, and the wicked will burn until completely gone – not endlessly. Those who believe in Christ will receive eternal life. 

*Rev. 22:12 *_And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.”_

This is an entirely different study though but let me know if you would like to know more…


(So I don't believe in purgatory either)


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 12, 2009)

divya said:


> This is an entirely different study though but let me know if you would like to know more…
> 
> 
> (So I don't believe in purgatory either)


 

So you believe that the soul in permanently imbedded within the shell, the body?  It doesn't return to G-d when the shell dies?  I hadn't thought of it that way.  I believe that the life force given from G-d returns once the physical dies.  And I think that the resurrection of the dead will give a new body, bound to that same soul.   Yours is an interesting and diff. perspective.


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## divya (Mar 12, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> So you believe that the soul in permanently imbedded within the shell, the body?  It doesn't return to G-d when the shell dies?  I hadn't thought of it that way.  I believe that the life force given from G-d returns once the physical dies.  And I think that the resurrection of the dead will give a new body, bound to that same soul.   Yours is an interesting and diff. perspective.



Sort of. Let me explain further. I believe that the living body is a soul, in accordance with the verse in Genesis. We are living, breathing beings. When we die, our breath of life certainly does return to God.  In that way, the breath of life can be called the _soul._ However, I do not believe that the soul is an _independent entity_. Meaning that it is not an _independent being_ that looks down on anyone because the Scriptures state that the dead know nothing.  At Jesus' coming, we will once again arise from the dead as living souls because the Life Giver will give the breath of life back to us.

There's a verse in Matthew where the Scriptures state: 

*Matt. 10:28* - _And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell._

The Greek translation for the term _soul_ in this verse is _breath_.

ETA: Here is a site that explains the Biblical meaning of soul, examining the term _soul_  or _nephesh_ in Hebrew and the term _soul_ or _psuchi_ in Greek. This best explains my beliefs on the issue... http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/qod/q40.htm


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## Ms.Honey (Mar 12, 2009)

Divya, scripture says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. The soul/spirit does not only refer to the spirit but also to the mind and body (person) in certain cases in the bible.

Before Jesus died on the cross people did not go straight to heaven but to Hell also known as Paradise(the upper chamber of hell for those in His will), the Lower chambers of hell (Hades, a place of burning for those outside of His will), Abraham's Bossom, Captivity, etc.). He told the thief,"Today, you will be with *Me* in *Paradise*.". 

 Jesus went to Hell and took captivity captive, removing them from hell and taking them to heaven. After that all who died in His will went to heaven.

I'll start a thread so we can stop hijacking this one.


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## divya (Mar 12, 2009)

Ms.Honey said:


> Divya, scripture says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. The soul/spirit does not only refer to the spirit but also to the mind and body (person) in certain cases in the bible.
> 
> Before Jesus died on the cross people did not go straight to heaven but to Hell also known as Paradise(the upper chamber of hell for those in His will), the Lower chambers of hell (Hades, a place of burning for those outside of His will), Abraham's Bossom, Captivity, etc.). He told the thief,"Today, you will be with *Me* in *Paradise*.".
> 
> ...



Yes, we really are hijacking. 

Those verses that you speak of, I understand to mean something entirely different.  

*Discussion continued here:* http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=347261


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## Almaz (Mar 12, 2009)

Thank you very much


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