# What happens during the interval between death and the final judgment?



## natural_one (Mar 5, 2012)

*The "Familiar Spirits" thread got me to researching and I came across this article. Wanting to get some opinions on this..The one thing that is confusing to me if the scripture that says during the rapture the dead in Christ shall rise first. Now is that talking about their spirit or their body? And if it is talking about their spirit where has the spirit been in the meantime. Please read the article and provide some thoughts. Thanks!*


Following death, there is an intermediate state-the time between death and the final judgment. And there is also a final state-the eternal destiny which will last forever. In this study, we want to look at the intermediate state-what happens during the interval between death and the final judgment.

1. THE IMMEDIATE ABODE OF THE UNSAVED DEAD

Jesus told about the self-centered ungodly rich man (in Luke 16). The ungodly man died, “and in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments” (Luke 16:23/KJV). The word translated “hell” is “Hades,” a word which in the New Testament is used to describe the place where the unsaved dead go immediately upon death.

The Greek word for “hell” as a final destiny, is a different word. The word “gehenna” was used to describe the Valley of Hinnom, the garbage dump on the south side of Jerusalem. It was the place where wild dogs gnashed their teeth as they fought over the garbage of the dump. Gehenna is the final place of punishment; Hades is the intermediate place of the dead.

Jesus (in Luke 16) says the souls of the wicked go to “Hades” after death, but in Matthew 10:28 Jesus speaks about hell also. There, He says that both soul and body are cast into “gehenna” after the resurrection and final judgment. In Matthew 10 Jesus is talking about final judgment, but in Luke 16 He is talking about what happens immediately after death.

Hades is like a county jail (a temporary prison), until the sentence is determined. The Lake of Fire (gehenna) is like a state penitentiary, a permanent place of punishment.

While “Hades” is not the final destiny of the wicked, it is a place of conscious suffering and of despair place of torment. The man in Luke 16 wanted someone to dip the tip of his finger in water to cool his tongue (Luke 16:24). At another place, the Bible says that “the Lord knows how to … reserve the unjust under punishment for (until) the day of judgment” (2 Peter 2:9). Hades is a temporary prison where the wicked dead are kept under punishment until the day of judgment and the final sentence is named.

The purpose of the Judgment is not so much to determine who is saved and who is lost. The matter of salvation has been determined by our decision regarding Jesus Christ here in this life. For example, John 6:47 says, “He who believes in me has everlasting life.” The word “believes” is a strong word: It means “to embrace,” and “to cling to;” it includes repentance and obedience. Those who sincerely receive Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord of their lives, are assured of eternal life. By way of contrast, those who do not know God, and who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ “shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord” (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9).

And so the final Judgment is not so much designed to determine who is saved and who is lost, as it is to determine the degree of punishment and the degree of reward. Every human being will some day stand before the judgment bar of God. There will be rewards and there will be appropriate punishment. Exactly when and how God will accomplish all this, is not really important for us to know. But in Revelation 20:1314, the word translated “hell” (KJV) is “Hades.” And so when the text says that “death and Hades” will deliver up the dead who were in them, those in Hades (the temporary prison) will be judged, and then cast into the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire will be the eternal destiny of the unsaved.

2. THE IMMEDIATE ABODE OF THOSE WHO DIE IN CHRIST

The Bible teaches that those who are saved, having embraced the blood of Jesus on the cross (11 Peter 1:18-19), will at death go to be with Christ, in a state of conscious bliss–and are immediately in fellowship with Christ.

The Apostle Paul declared that “to be absent from the body” is to be “present with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:8). And later, he says that to die, is “to depart and be with Christ, which is far better’ (Philippians 1:23).

Jesus speaks of the immediate abode of the saved dead, as “Paradise.” He said to the thief on the cross, “Today you will be with me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43). The righteous dead are in the presence of Christ, in a place called Paradise, awaiting the resurrection of the body the judgment, the final reward-and the future lif6 in Heaven.

It might be helpful to explain that before the death and resurrection of Jesus, “Hades” had two regions, one for the righteous and the other for the unrighteous. Not only were the wicked in Hades, but so were the righteous in Old Testament times. In the account of the rich man and Lazarus (in Luke 16), before the death and resurrection of Jesus, there was a “great gulf” (Luke 16:26) between the two regions. But they were close enough to each other that the self-centered rich man could communicate with the patriarch Abraham.

In the later parts of the New Testament, the abode of the saved is described with the word “paradise.” The Apostle Paul was “caught up into Paradise” (2 Corinthians 12:4). Our Lord Jesus says that those who overcome shall “eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God” (Revelation 2:7).

The Scriptures indicate that Christ descended into Hades before He went back to the Father, at the time of His crucifixion and resurrection and ascension. Acts 2:27 says that His soul was not left in Hades and that His body did not see corruption. Acts 2:32-33 says that Jesus was raised up and exalted at the right hand of the Father. And Ephesians 4:8-10 says that when Christ “ascended on high, He led captivity captive.” It is the belief of many evangelical Bible teachers that it was at this time that those in the righteous portion of Hades were led into the place called Paradise in New Testament times. Jesus descended into Hades, set the Old Testament saints free, and took them to Paradise to be with Him. And now, when saved persons die, “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:8).

If the above Scriptures are properly interpreted, then immediately after death, the saved find themselves in Paradise and the lost find themselves in Hades. Exactly what activities will take place during the time between death and judgment (in these temporary abodes) is not revealed in Scripture. The Bible is restrained in what it says about life immediately following death. There are many questions about life after death that go beyond the limits of our understanding. Now we see through a glass darkly, but a marvelous day is coming when those mysteries will be completely unveiled.

We do know two major facts. Unbelievers will be in a state of anguish and torment (Luke 16:2328; 2 Peter 2:9). The saved will be resting from their labors in joyful satisfaction (Revelation 14:13; Acts 7:59; Philippians 1:23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). The spirits of those who die in their sins will be ushered immediately in Hades, and after the Judgment, both body and soul will be delivered into the Lake of Fire. The spirits of those who die in Christ will be ushered immediately into the

Paradise of God, and upon receiving new bodies, eventually will be transported into the final heavenly home, which Jesus says He is preparing for His people (John 14:1-3).

http://realchristianity.wordpress.com/2008/01/14/what-happens-immediately-after-death/


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## natural_one (Mar 5, 2012)

*Cliffnotes*:  The article states that people that are non believers that once they die their spirit goes to a temporary hell called Hades, while the believers go to a temporary heaven called Paradise.  So my OP was asking if anyone has heard of this before and if this is what happens between death and judgement day.


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## loolalooh (Mar 5, 2012)

natural_one said:


> 85 views and no posts???  Guess no one has an opinion..



I'm reading/pondering on what you posted.  It will take time.


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## sheanu (Mar 5, 2012)

_____________________


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## loolalooh (Mar 5, 2012)

natural_one said:


> *Wanting to get some opinions on this..The one thing that is confusing to me if the scripture that says during the rapture the dead in Christ shall rise first. Now is that talking about their spirit or their body? *



natural_one: My interpretation is that the dead will rise in a "spiritual body".

_*1 Corinthians 15*
35 But someone will ask, (AX)*“How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?”* 36 You foolish person! (AY)What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. 39 For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

42 (AZ)*So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.* 43 It is sown in dishonor; (BA)it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 *It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.*
_


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## loolalooh (Mar 5, 2012)

More on the question of how the dead will rise:

*1 Corinthians 15*
_50 I tell you this, brothers: (BK)flesh and blood (BL)cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. (BM)We shall not all sleep, (BN)but *we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.* *For (BO)the trumpet will sound, and (BP)the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and (BQ)this mortal body must put on immortality.*_


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Mar 5, 2012)

Lack of an immediate response does not mean no one will answer, sometimes someone is waiting to read up on a matter first or simply they are waiting on God or is simply unable to answer, it could be various reasons..

First I think it's important to explain the the body soul and spirit (tripartite man), which can be a bit confusing and this is why I waited, I don't want to confuse anyone.


Upond death Our bodies will return to the earth and decay, the bible says that we will be given new bodies, so no our bodies will not be resurrected... 

Soul and spirit are two different things, see Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing* soul and spirit*...also in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 says, “May your *spirit and soul and body* be preserved complete.” 

Soul refers to consciousness or conscious experience. Soul, Biblically, is the ability to interact with your environment, to feel, etc. – to be conscious. For example, the Bible says that even animals (including fish, whales) have souls. Genesis 1:30, talking about animals says, “every living thing in which is a living soul”. 

Spirit does not refer to consciousness but rather to the “God part” of a person and/or simply the fact that they are breathing and is alive. Ecclesiastes 12:7 tells us that death the breath or spirit returns to God who gave it.

We see in Genesis that Adam only became a living soul after God breathe the breath of life into him.


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## nathansgirl1908 (Mar 5, 2012)

This is a question I've had before...

Thanks for posting.


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## Prudent1 (Mar 5, 2012)

*Lack of an immediate response does not mean no one will answer, sometimes someone is waiting to read up on a matter first or simply they are waiting on God or is simply unable to answer, it could be various reasons..*
^^^Quoted for emphasis again- in love. A lot of us are at work, running businesses, moms, students, etc. When there is a weighty question asked such as this one, I do pray before I answer. Just as I'd pray if we were all discussing these things face to face. Now if days went by w/o a response I could see someone withdrawing their question. Even when we don't see eye to eye in the CF, I don't think anyone is intentionally rude or intentionally ignoring others. If it's not too much to ask, will you consider restating your OP?

ETA- Thanks for reposting. I'm reading it now and will respond later. About to start the commute home now. Ahh, rush hour trafficerplexed my daily chance to develop spiritually...


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## natural_one (Mar 5, 2012)

Thanks to the ladies that responded. I definitely didn't mean to offend with my second post.. 

Back to the subject at hand, loolalooh, your first post really helped me see the missing piece. I didn't think of that fact that the spiritual body would rise not the physical one.


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## blazingthru (Mar 6, 2012)

*The "Familiar Spirits" thread got me to researching and I came across this article. Wanting to get some opinions on this..The one thing that is confusing to me if the scripture that says during the rapture the dead in Christ shall rise first. Now is that talking about their spirit or their body? And if it is talking about their spirit where has the spirit been in the meantime. Please read the article and provide some thoughts. Thanks!*

Great Question.  The spirit and the body or the same, the spirit the body the soul are all the same thing.  Yes those who died in Christ will arise at the coming of Jesus.


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## blazingthru (Mar 6, 2012)

Your body will arise as it is and at the last trump will change to incorruptable.  Which is such a good question. Because many believe your already in heaven and so Jesus is coming back for your body?. it really doesn't make any sense at all. But you will be amazed at the things people actually believe and run with.  When you pass from this life the breath that is in your body returns to God its just air. But you need it in your body to be a person with out it your just a body. its just air. thats all.  But in case you have some doubts I will post my very long information about the Soul, The Breath, The body.


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## blazingthru (Mar 6, 2012)

Job 14:14), "If a man die, shall he live again?"

1 Corinthians 15:16-22 how positive and clear God is when He says that the day will come when the trump of God shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible. "For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that *slept*. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so *in Christ *shall all be made alive." Now it tells us here in essence that Christ was risen from the dead, thus guaranteeing that all *Christians who die could follow Him and be raised also from the dead*. 

Genesis 2:7 God's definition of a soul. "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and *breathed into his nostrils the breath of life*; and man became a living soul." BODY + BREATH = SOUL. A body plus the breath of life and we no longer have a body and a breath but we have a combination known as a "soul." That's the first and general definition in the Bible concerning a soul. We are souls. I'm a soul. You're a soul. A living, walking, talking, living human being is a soul
Now the word "soul" is used to mean two other things also in the Scripture. It's used in some cases to mean life itself. One example of this is Job 12:10. "In whose hand is the soul of every living thing." Well, of course, that's talking about life itself. And then the third definition, is the mind or the intellect. An example of soul being used this way is found in Psalm 139:14, "... and that my soul knoweth right well.". 
It takes a combination of two things to make that soul. It takes a body + breath. You have to have both of them or you will not have a soul regardless of which definition you want to use. It doesn't make any difference about that. If it means life, you must have body + breath. If it means intellect, you must have body + breath or you don't have the soul. The general usage in the Bible is a person, a personal being. 
If a body + the breath makes a living soul, then what happens to that soul if the breath is taken away? Well, it would die, that's exactly right. It's the truth. 
This is the important thing. It's not what man thinks; it's what God says. Listen to this in Ezekiel 18:20. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Die, if the soul was naturally immortal it could never die. But God says Himself, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." So on the authority of God's Word, souls do die after all.

The Spirit that returns to God when a man dies is the breath of life. 
The breath or spirit of every person who dies whether he's evil or good, returns to God, Body + breath = (or makes) a living soul, so we are souls. Souls do die. 

Another example is the case of Jesus on the cross. You remember He said, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit." Luke 23:46. It's the same thing exactly. He knew that the breath returned to God. It would be given back to Him early Sunday morning when He was raised from the tomb. Steven, the first Christian martyr was stoned to death outside the city because he dared uphold the name of Jesus. And as he was dying, he said, "Lord, Jesus, receive my spirit." He understood the Bible doctrine that we are teaching right here because it was a doctrine that was taught from the beginning of creation. The spirit, or the breath, goes back heavenward when a man dies; it returns to God. So this is not a new thing at all. It was taught 3,000 years ago by the great prophet and singer in Israel, David. In Psalm 104:29, "Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Thou sendest forth thy spirit, (or breath) they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth." You see the same thing exactly, friends, and that was preached 3,000 years ago by David.

Now let's review a few facts again about the soul. Point number one. The word "soul" or the word translated "soul" is used 852 times in the Bible. Soul, not spirit, (we've talked about that earlier) that was 948 times, but here the word "soul" 852 times. Point number two. Never in any of these references is it given any existence apart from the body. Point number three. Never in any of those 852 references does it have any life or activity or knowledge or personality separated from the body. Point number four. Always in all of these references is the soul pictured as something that is short-lived, never is it deathless or immortal. The natural undying, immortal soul is absolutely unknown, dear friends, in the Scripture. It just isn't there, and with 852 opportunities all through the Bible, if the great men of God had something to say about an undying immortal soul, it seems strange that no one ever mentioned it. There's a reason, of course. The reason is that the soul is not undying or immortal. 
Never once in all the Word of God is it anywhere stated that the soul goes back to God. Now I've heard that repeated over and over again, maybe you have also, that your soul does return to God, but that's not in the Bible, it just isn't found there at all.
At death the soul ceases to exist.. At death the soul ceases to exist until the combination is made again and the breath of life is put into that body once more in the resurrection. And then the individual will be resurrected and there will be life.. Even the fish of the sea are called souls. The text is Revelation 16:3. You read it and as you read it and study it, you'll be aware of this fact, that anything that has a body + breath is a soul. That applies to animals, fish, birds, anything that has a body and is alive. 
" 1 Timothy 6:13 and 1 Timothy 6:16: "I give thee charge in the sight of God ... Who only hath immortality." Man doesn't have it. God has it by nature. Man is mortal and subject to death. This text specifically says, "God ... only (only) hath immortality." No one else, not even the angels of heaven, "God ... only hath immortality." So once again I say, the immortal soul of man is simply just not in the Bible at all and the Bible teaches the very opposite.


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## blazingthru (Mar 6, 2012)

You know, we ought to thank God right now that Christ's tomb is an empty tomb. Mohammed's tomb is not empty. The grave of Confucius is not an empty grave. Parts of Buddha have been enshrined all over the Orient in various and sundry places, but the tomb of Christ is an empty tomb. And that's what Paul is talking about. Then he added that since Jesus had been raised, Satan's prison house was opened so that all the redeemed who have gone to sleep in Jesus will be raised again. And so the question, "If a man dies, shall he live again," has been forever settled on the authority of the Scripture, and God's plain unqualified answer is "Yes." 



"How did it all come about? What happens to man between the time he dies and the time he's raised from the dead?" Ecclesiastes 12:7. This is a statement made by the wise man, Solomon, the wisest man of the past. He's making a general statement here on death in verse 7. "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." There are two things that this text nails down. Point number one. The body will return to the dust and the dust to the earth. Point number two. The Spirit, whatever that is, will return to God. Now those two things are made clear in this passage of Scripture. Let's go a step further. What is the Spirit, this Spirit that goes back to God when a man dies? What is it? I would like to read a New Testament Scripture now and then an Old Testament Scripture after that. First, James 2:26. "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." 



Now according to this Scripture, the Spirit is the thing that keeps the body alive. In translating the Bible, the translators were not sure just how some of these words should be placed in the Scripture text. There are several meanings of some words and if they're not sure, they put one word in the text and the other word in the margin. Now the word in the margin makes it much clearer to us. It says "or breath." And so according to this text, this spirit that goes back to God is the thing that keeps the person alive and it is called also the breath. Let's see if the Old Testament writers agree with this. We turn to Job 27:3. "All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils." And the margin says here "by the spirit of God," That is, "the breath which God gave him." Now I want you to notice what this text proves. This text proves and shows that this spirit which goes back to God is in man's nostrils and the margin says it's the breath which God gave him. So this spirit which returns to God when man dies is simply the breath of life. 



Now perhaps you'd like to ask, "Are you sure of this? I've never heard that before. Are you positive that the spirit which goes back to God when a man dies is the very breath of life?" Well, let's establish and reestablish, these two facts. We must remember that God in the beginning placed this spirit or breath in man's nostrils. In order to see just what it was that God did place in man's nostrils let's read another text. This time in Genesis 2:7. Remember now, whatever this spirit is, God gave it in the beginning and He put it in man's nostrils and then later it was to return to God after death. "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." You see how clear and plain it is, friends, there's no room for question at all. The Scripture plainly shows that the spirit that returns to God when a man dies is the breath of life which God placed in his nostrils in the beginning when man was created. Now that's exactly what David also taught in the Psalms. Psalm 146:4,speaking of death, "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." You see there's a perfect agreement among the Bible writers. Now before we go further, there are several things we ought to establish in regard to the spirit. Then we'll go on to another topic. 



Point number one. The spirit or the breath of every person that dies, whether that person is good or evil, returns to God. That's found in Ecclesiastes 12:7. A lot of people have taken that scripture and have said, "Now here's proof that something goes off to God from the righteous people when they die." But that isn't what the text says at all. It has to do with all people, not just the righteous people. So this spirit, the breath of life, goes back to God when a person died whether that man is good or evil. 



Point number two. Men have the same spirit or breath as do animals. Now we may not like to think of that and I certainly wouldn't say it if I just made it up, I might not be appreciated, but God said it in Ecclesiastes 3:19, 20. "For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; ... all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again." There it is. God said it. No question about it at all. He has forever settled it. 



Point number three.. This word, translated "spirit," is used 948 times in the Scripture and yet not one time is it ever shown to have life, personality, feeling, wisdom; nor is it ever given any attributes of personality. Now you think of that for a moment. If it's true as people say today that the spirit is something you fear and it goes off and has wisdom, knowledge, etc., why is it that in 948 opportunities the Bible writers never one time spoke of it? There must be a reason, friends. There is a reason. The spirit is simply the breath which God gives to a body, making that body live. No more and no less, that's what the Scriptures teach. It's the power of God, the touch of God's hand, as He put life into that dead body. 



In the beginning, He simply formed that body out of the dust. It was all there but it was not alive. The heart was there, it wasn't beating. The blood was there, it wasn't flowing. The brain was there, it wasn't thinking. And then, the Bible says, that God put His breath into that body. He did not put a soul in. He put in the breath and the text says, "man became a living soul." Now I hope you'll remember this, friends. When death comes, that breath returns to God. We found out that the spirit and the breath are the same thing. Whatever God gave, now it returns, and it's called "breath" in one text and "spirit" in another, but they are one and the same thing! The spirit returns to God and the body returns to the dust as it was, and so the life ends right there. 

We've been studying for several days about the soul of man and what happens at death. Millions of people have wondered about this down through the years. They want to know about their beloved dead. Where do they remain during the time they wait for the great resurrection day? Today we're going to answer this question. We are not immortal. We've found that there is no such thing as a naturally immortal soul. We've found that the body and the very life is made up of a combination of breath plus the body. And when the breath returns to God and leaves the body, there is no longer any conscious existence on the part of the individual. The soul is not in existence as long as the breath is not in the body


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## blazingthru (Mar 6, 2012)

But today we want to know this: If we're not immortal by nature, when will the saints of God possess immortality or immortal souls? Will there be a day when God's redeemed will become immortal? The answer, of course, is a positive "Yes." The Scripture for that is 1 Corinthians 15:51-55. "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." Now you see the Scripture is very pointed and very specific on this. There is no question but that man will receive immortality and it says "at the last trump." That's at the second coming of Jesus. 

No one has natural immortality except God only. That was found in 1 Timothy 6:13, 16. "God ... only hath immortality." Secondly, the righteous will receive it at the second coming of Jesus. Now the question naturally arises, "Where are the bodies of the dead if the soul ceases to exist and the breath goes back to God, where are the bodies?" Let's hear Jesus answer this, friends. He gives a specific answer in John 5:28, 29. He said, "... for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." Now notice what Jesus taught. He taught that those who have died are in their graves, both the good and the evil, and they will hear the voice of God call them forth, the righteous to the resurrection of life and the evil to the resurrection of damnation. Now that's too plain to be misunderstood, friends, because Christ Himself taught it. You can depend on it. He makes no mistakes. 



Now I know how you feel just about this time. If you've never heard this before, you're saying probably, "Well, isn't there some part of man somewhere or somehow that separates from him at death and that goes somewhere and that might even keep knowing and thinking after death?" Yes, I have heard those things, friends, most of my life. I've read about it, too, in books and pamphlets, that some part of man must keep on living even after death. But what about the Scriptures? What do they teach? They say, "No." In Job 14, let's see what he had to say about death and the condition of man in death. Job 14:12 and then verse 21. "So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Here he's speaking of this man who is dead, friends, and who is in his grave in the tomb. And then he goes on with his words, "His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them." Well, you say, that's just the opposite of what I've heard most of my life. 



I say this with kindness and sympathy because this is a very delicate subject. It touches the hearts of individuals because I know many people, most people, have lost loved ones and they're very, very closely tied up emotionally with this topic; and how many times have you heard ministers in public services say, "Your mother is in heaven now. Don't be alarmed. She's looking down right now and knows everything that's taking place here." Well, on the authority of Job 14:21, friends, you can be sure that your loved ones are sleeping the sleep of death in the grave waiting for that glorious day when they will receive immortality at the coming of Christ. Here's another text, Psalm 115:17. "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence." Now that's clear. If one should die, a righteous one, and be ushered into the presence of God, surely they would be praising God. But this text says, "No, they do not; they can not." Now to me this is a wonderfully comforting doctrine. I've often tried to think of what I would say to people if I didn't know and teach this Bible truth. If I had to teach what men usually teach today in regard to this subject of the dead, I don't know what I could say to comfort people when we stand by the open grave. I'm grateful for this wonderful message of comfort. It's comforting to know that our loved ones are sleeping in the tomb, that's what Jesus called it.


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## blazingthru (Mar 6, 2012)

You remember the story in John 11 about the death of Lazarus and how He went quickly to comfort those sisters? The word came to Him from Martha, "Come quickly. Lazarus, your dear friend, is dying." But Christ didn't make it soon enough and they sent the message saying, "He's dead already." Well, He was discussing this with the disciples and He said, "Lazarus is asleep. I'm going to wake him up." The disciples said, "Well, if he's asleep, you'd better just leave him alone; he's better off sleeping." But then the Scriptures say the Lord answered plainly saying, "Lazarus is dead." Over and again the Scripture uses that term "asleep" in reference to death. That's the way the Lord wants us to think of it. Now at your house is there great sadness when somebody rests or sleeps for the night? No, indeed. You go into the other room and there one of the members of the family has gone to bed early and is sleeping. You're not sad, are you? You don't say, "My this is a great tragedy." No. You say, "Well, they're tired and they'll feel better in the morning." And that's what God wants us to think, friends. 



Death is a sound, dreamless sleep and we will awaken in the morning, that is on the glorious resurrection morning. You know how it is when you sleep at night, you're tired, your body is fatigued, you get a good night's sleep and before you realize it, you're not conscious of the passing of time, before you realize it that alarm clock goes off and you cannot believe that the night is over. It doesn't seem possible. And that's the way it will be with those who sleep in death. It will seem but a moment of time. They will not be conscious of any passage of time between that moment of falling to sleep in death and waking on the glorious resurrection morning. Just try to picture this. In their last moments, they're lying in a hospital bed perhaps, with the family gathered around weeping and saying goodbye. Then they close their eyes and go to sleep in death. But it seems to the person who's been in the tomb just a matter of seconds and he wakes up again expecting to be in a hospital room, but no, there's an angel reaching out a hand to help him out of the grave. Is there anything sad about that, friends? No, indeed. It's one of the most comforting teachings in all the Book of God. It's what Christ taught and He knew what would comfort men's hearts. 



On the other hand if the popular idea is taught, I can't see how anyone can be comforted really. I can't see how there's any comfort at all. For example, a man died; if he's righteous, then he goes to heaven. His wife is left behind to struggle along and things don't go too well. She loses her home. She loses the automobile. She becomes ill and finally even loses the children. They're sent off to different places to be kept in different families. Finally the wife, herself, passes away. Now, tell me, would heaven be an enjoyable place for a man under those circumstances? For him to look down and see his family being divided and parcelled out? Oh, no, friends, that would be hell for a man, wouldn't it? Or supposing a mother dies and, according to the popular teaching, goes right into heaven. Behind are left her children in desperate need; no one to care for them; no one to help them. Could that mother enjoy heaven under those circumstances? Why, of course not. She would want to leave heaven and go back down at any cost to help her children. Or supposing a loved one were not saved, that we never like to mention, this we always try to avoid, but the popular teaching is if a loved one is not saved when he closes his eyes in death, he's plunged right straight into hell where he begins to shriek for mercy throughout all eternity. I'm thankful that such a doctrine is not in the Bible and I don't need to teach it. 



A man can be ever so wicked and I can say to his loved ones, he's sleeping peacefully now, and it's true because that's what the Bible says. The wicked are asleep just as the righteous are asleep until the judgment day and then they all come forth to receive their rewards or punishments. Now let me give you the plainest text. In Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10, "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing," isn't that clear? " ... neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in anything that is done under the sun. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." So you see, friends, God doesn't leave us in the dark. There's no question about these things. We could not possibly be confused if we just read the simple statements of the Bible concerning the condition of man after death. 



Acts 2:29, 34, "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. For David is not ascended into the heavens." Now isn't that clear, friends? You say, can we be sure that David will be saved? Is he a saved man? Yes, Hebrews 11:32 puts him on God's honor roll with all the faithful of the ages. David will be saved, but in the days of Stephen and Peter he was in his grave and he had not gone to heaven. Neither have any other righteous people. They're all asleep in the graves waiting for the coming of Jesus. 

The soul does not live on in conscious torment or conscious paradise and glory after death. Those things will come after the judgment. how could there be punishment until after the judgment has taken place? How could a person be rewarded until his life record has been examined and his judgment has taken place? No, God is righteous; God is just; He will give out those things after the resurrection, after the judgment takes place at the end of this world.


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## SummerSolstice (Mar 6, 2012)

I was going to say that punishment prior to judgement day doesn't make sense to me... but I don't understand anything about what happens to you after you die. I just know I'm going to heaven LOL.


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 6, 2012)

There are two things that happen to us:

We either are going to be with God for eternity or we will be separate from Him for eternity.  Period.

There is no need to have flowing words that only speak to the flesh.  The truth is that the Bible is God's Word and His word does not return void, but goes forth and prosper where its been sent.  

If He says it, that settles it for me.


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## natural_one (Mar 6, 2012)

Ok based on your article blazingthru  Our Spirit returns to God, our Soul dies, and our body of course dies and during the rapture our body is resurrected so it can be turned into our spiritual body. Do i have that correct?


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## natural_one (Mar 6, 2012)

Nice & Wavy said:


> There are two things that happen to us:
> 
> We either are going to be with God for eternity or we will be separate from Him for eternity.  Period.
> 
> ...



Nice & Wavy, what do you mean?


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Mar 6, 2012)

I like that....




SummerSolstice said:


> I just know I'm going to heaven LOL.


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## Galadriel (Mar 6, 2012)

Very interesting article, OP.

Although I'm familiar with the Rapture, I come from the theological viewpoint that there isn't a rapture. However, I'd like to take a shot at answering the question.

I think the author of the article errs in that he asserts that there are two waiting places for souls when they die and that heaven and hell will be populated only at the final judgment.

Death, Judgment, Heaven and Hell are often referred to as "The Four Last Things."

When a person dies, his soul is immediately judged by Christ. 
"Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment," (Hebrews 9:27)

If his soul is deprived of God's life-giving, sanctifying grace, then he immediately descends into hell.

If his soul is not deprived of God's grace yet he needs that final finishing-off of his purification/sanctification, then through Christ's blood he is purged and goes to heaven. Some people die having cooperated with God's grace and completed their sanctification process, and immediately go to heaven.

Hell is currently populated. Heaven is currently populated.

When Christ returns to judge the living and the dead, then will be the Final Judgment.


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## natural_one (Mar 6, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> Very interesting article, OP.
> 
> Although I'm familiar with the Rapture, I come from the* theological viewpoint* that there isn't a rapture. However, I'd like to take a shot at answering the question.
> 
> I think the author of the article errs in that he asserts that there are *two waiting places for souls* when they die and that heaven and hell will be populated only at the final judgment.



Galadriel which viewpoint is this?

That was where I was thrown off, because I had never heard of a waiting place in Christianity, only Catholicism's purgatory.


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## Galadriel (Mar 6, 2012)

natural_one said:


> @Galadriel which viewpoint is this?
> 
> That was where I was thrown off, because I had never heard of a waiting place in Christianity, only Catholicism's purgatory.



Purgatory is not a waiting place per se, but rather the completion of our inner "cleaning" or sanctification prior to entering heaven.

The Rapture is an eschatological (eschatology = death, judgment, heaven, hell) belief connected to certain interpretations of the Book of Revelation.

My view (and interpretation) is based in Catholic eschatology:
*
-there will be a falling away from the faith (the Great Apostasy)
-the lawless one, the man of sin will be revealed (Antichrist)*

_II Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of  our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2:2 That  ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by  word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.  2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,  except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed,  the son of perdition; 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all  that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in  the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2:5 Remember ye not,  that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 2:6And now ye  know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 2:7 For the  mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will  let, until he be taken out of the way. 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be  revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and  shall destroy with the brightness of his coming_

*-the Church will endure a very great, very terrible persecution
-Christ will return to judge the living and the dead, and His Kingdom will have no end
*


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## blazingthru (Mar 6, 2012)

natural_one said:


> Ok based on your article @blazingthru Our Spirit returns to God, our Soul dies, and our body of course dies and during the rapture our body is resurrected so it can be turned into our spiritual body. Do i have that correct?


 
Yes, the spirit is the same as the breath it knows nothing, its air. it returns from God whom gave it but not knowing anything because its air, The other things mentioned arenot biblical the bible doesn't speak of a waiting place or that the breath knows anything and is able to view and do whatever here on earth or in heaven.   Death is just like sleep, when we are in a deep sleep we are not aware of anything that goes on especially time.  Thats why we should spend a good deal of time in prayer before we go to sleep for we never know if we will wake the next morning or not.  as for the resurrection. The bible says our corruptable bodies will become incorruptable it doesn't say we will now have a spiritual body. our bodies we have now will change. We will continue to be flesh and bone. 

I'm sending you a pm.


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## Galadriel (Mar 6, 2012)

blazingthru said:


> YThe other things mentioned arenot biblical the bible doesn't speak of a waiting place or that the breath knows anything and is able to view and do whatever here on earth or in heaven.   Death is just like sleep, when we are in a deep sleep we are not aware of anything that goes on especially time.



I know a few people who hold this view. If this is so, then how did Moses and Elijah appear on the mountain with Christ and speak with Him? 

Matthew 17:1-8

*1*After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. *2*There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. *3*Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus. 
*4*Peter  said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will  put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” 
*5*While  he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from  the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well  pleased. Listen to him!” 
*6*When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. *7*But Jesus came and touched them. “Get up,” he said. “Don’t be afraid.” *8*When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus.


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## natural_one (Mar 7, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> I know a few people who hold this view. If this is so, then how did Moses and Elijah appear on the mountain with Christ and speak with Him?



Ok, now that leads me to another question. In the familiar spirits thread they were saying it wasnt possible for the OP's uncle to be speaking to her because people that are dead do not appear or speak..So if Jesus allowed Moses and Elijah appear then why is it not possible that other people that are dead can't appear to the living? That may be another thread but its just another thought I had..


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 7, 2012)

natural_one said:


> Ok, now that leads me to another question. In the familiar spirits thread they were saying it wasnt possible for the OP's uncle to be speaking to her because people that are dead do not appear or speak..So if Jesus allowed Moses and Elijah appear then why is it not possible that other people that are dead can't appear to the living? That may be another thread but its just another thought I had..



Read this:

*"And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light."  *  Matthew 17: 2

Jesus wasn't in the flesh when they came to Him...He was in the spirit along with them.


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 7, 2012)

natural_one said:


> @Nice & Wavy, what do you mean?


I put that out as a general statement because of what I was reading in a few posts in this thread.


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## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

natural_one said:


> Ok, now that leads me to another question. In the familiar spirits thread they were saying it wasnt possible for the OP's uncle to be speaking to her because people that are dead do not appear or speak..So if Jesus allowed Moses and Elijah appear then why is it not possible that other people that are dead can't appear to the living? That may be another thread but its just another thought I had..



Indeed! I'll start another thread so that this one won't go off topic.


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## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Read this:
> 
> *"And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light."  *  Matthew 17: 2
> 
> Jesus wasn't in the flesh when they came to Him...He was in the spirit along with them.



Jesus certainly was in the flesh! Jesus Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary--He is Fully God and Fully Man. Jesus Christ is the God-Man. His Divine Nature is complete. His Human Nature is complete. 

At no time during Christ's life on earth did He become "not human, not man, or not in the flesh." Christ's human and divine natures exist in a hypostatic union within His One Person (Jesus Christ is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity).

When He resurrected, He resurrected with a Glorified Body (like the one we will resurrect with at the Resurrection).


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## natural_one (Mar 7, 2012)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Read this:
> 
> *"And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light."  *  Matthew 17: 2
> 
> Jesus wasn't in the flesh when they came to Him...He was in the spirit along with them.



So when Jesus was transfigured he became Spirit, then returned back to flesh? Say that is true, but what about the disciples? They were flesh and they seen Moses and Elijah, so I am curious what changed to make that not possible now?


Matt 17:1-4

1 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves.
 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.
 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”


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## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

natural_one said:


> So when Jesus was transfigured he became Spirit, then returned back to flesh? Say that is true, but what about the disciples? They were flesh and they seen Moses and Elijah, so I am curious what changed to make that not possible now?
> 
> 
> Matt 17:1-4
> ...



By the way, "transfigured" means dazzling (as in light or being lit up). Christ's face and clothes lit up, revealing His Divine Light. To say Christ was no longer physical or human and then suddenly changed back would be a complete misreading of this Scripture.


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 7, 2012)

When Jesus was transfigured, was he sitting there with the disciples, or did they look up and see him with Elijah and Moses?  If he was with them in the flesh, why would they talk to him above?  Why did they not speak to him where they were?  JESUS IS GOD....HE CAN DO WHAT NO MAN CAN DO...HE IS NOT HELD DOWN TO THIS EARTH AS WE KNOW IT. THIS IS WHY I SAID HE WAS NOT IN THE FLESH BUT IN THE SPIRIT!



natural_one said:


> So when Jesus was transfigured he became Spirit, then returned back to flesh? Say that is true, but what about the disciples? They were flesh and they seen Moses and Elijah, so I am curious what changed to make that not possible now?
> 
> 
> Matt 17:1-4
> ...


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 7, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> By the way, "transfigured" means dazzling (as in light or being lit up). Christ's face and clothes lit up, revealing His Divine Light. To say Christ was no longer physical or human and then suddenly changed back would be a complete misreading of this Scripture.


*The word "transfigure" means to change the appearance or form. It does  not denote the change of the substance of a thing, but simply of its  appearance.*


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## blazingthru (Mar 7, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> I know a few people who hold this view. If this is so, then how did Moses and Elijah appear on the mountain with Christ and speak with Him?
> 
> Matthew 17:1-8
> 
> ...


 

Also Great question: Which gives me great pleasure to answer. God does everything for a particular reason, every single word in the bible has a meaning. Even if the lord is talking about a rock it has more meaning then just a rock. But yes. We only know of two that was taken to heaven without seeing death. Moses saw death. He actually died. He did not go to heaven when he died, he remained here on the earth where God hid his body. There is a story about Jesus coming to get his body and having Satan argue that Moses was guilty of the same sin as he, truthfully, satan wanted to be forgiven, but it was to late for him. But thats another story. 

Moses and Elijah represents the Prophets. they were living symbols of the Word of God.  Moses represents the law, and Elijah represents the prophets.

Matthew 5:17, “Think not that I am come to
destroy the law or the prophets: I am not come
to destroy, but to [fulfill].” Moses is the great
lawgiver, and Elijah is the greatest of the Old​Testament prophets.

The transfiguration is also a direct fulfillment of prophecy. Malachi foretold,
“Remember ye the law of Moses my servant,
which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all
Israel, with the statutes and judgments. Behold,
I will send you Elijah the prophet before the
great and dreadful day of the Lord.” One reason the Word of God is so wonderful is because it is so precise. Both Moses and Elijah did appear
in the New Testament prior to Jesus’ sacrifice to encourage and endorse Him.​Then, as if the endorsement of Moses and Elijah was not enough, a cloud overshadows the mountaintop and the voice of the Almighty is heard saying, “This is My beloved Son, Hear Him.” The Bible says, “*In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established”*
(1 Corinthians 13:1). On the Mount, two humans redeemed by Christ testify He is the Messiah, and of course, the third is the voice of God Himself! And what better confirmation of truth could God have offered—the lawgiver and the greatest prophet and His own audible testimony? In effect Moses says, “This is the One.” Elijah says, “This is the One.” Then God Almighty says, “This is the One.”
There are also three aspects or stages of salvation: justification,
symbolized by Moses; sanctification, the ministry of Elijah; and the God-filled man or glorification represented by Jesus.​There will be two categories of saints when Jesus returns: *the resurrected and the **living*. Moses, who died and was resurrected (Jude 1:9), is a symbol of the large class of people who will awake from their dusty graves when the Lord calls them—“The dead in Christ shall rise.” Elijah represents the other class of people who will be alive when Jesus returns. Like Elijah, who was caught up into heaven by a fiery chariot, and Enoch who walked with God until he walked right into heaven, they will be translated with new, glorious bodies without ever tasting death.  During the transfiguration, Jesus, Moses, and Elijah are wearing white garments, the same kind that the redeemed will wear. Clouds of glory also accompany them; Jesus left in the clouds and said He would come back in the clouds. And even the voice of the Father in heaven was heard on the Glorious Mount, just as it will be when Christ returns on the right hand of the Father (Matthew 26:64).​
​


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## Galadriel (Mar 7, 2012)

Nice & Wavy said:


> When Jesus was transfigured, was he sitting there with the disciples, or did they look up and see him with Elijah and Moses?  If he was with them in the flesh, why would they talk to him above?  Why did they not speak to him where they were?  JESUS IS GOD....HE CAN DO WHAT NO MAN CAN DO...HE IS NOT HELD DOWN TO THIS EARTH AS WE KNOW IT. THIS IS WHY I SAID HE WAS NOT IN THE FLESH BUT IN THE SPIRIT!



I believe Jesus Christ is God. He is also Man. He never lessened, shed away, or absorbed His human nature.


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## CoilyFields (Mar 7, 2012)

I agree with the OP. 

When I began to study death and the afterlife this is what I have come upon and it makes sense.

Sometimes it is easier to understand (see how the scriptures link together) if you already know Jewish History and tradition. Since Jesus was a Jew it makes sense that he adhered to (and by adhering to them he substantiated them) those explanations of the afterlife (especially since he mentioned them).


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## blazingthru (Mar 8, 2012)

*Genesis 2:7 (KJV)*
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
*Ecc 12:7 *  7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
*Psalm 104:29, 30  * 29Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.  
*Psalm 104:30* New Living Translation (NLT)
 30 When you give them your breath,[a] life is created, 
      and you renew the face of the earth.
*James 2:26*   New Living Translation (NLT)
 26 Just as the body is dead without breath, [a] so also faith is dead without good works.
*John 11:11-14* New Living Translation (NLT)
 11 Then he said, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but now I will go and wake him up.” 
 12 The disciples said, “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will soon get better!” 13 They thought Jesus meant Lazarus was simply sleeping, but Jesus meant Lazarus had died.  14 So he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.
*Ecc 9:5,6*
Ecclesiastes 9:5 New Living Translation (NLT)
5 The living at least know they will die, but the dead know nothing. They have no further reward, nor are they remembered. Whatever they did in their lifetime—loving, hating, envying—is all long gone. They no longer play a part in anything here on earth.
Ecclesiastes 9:6  King James Version (KJV)
 6Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
*Psalm 146:4 *King James Version (KJV)
 4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish
*Rev 14:13  * 13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.  This should tell you that your fate is sealed at death. You have already been judged. All that awaits when Jesus comes again for the 3rd time is you facing your fate.
*Ezekiel 18:*4  4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.  Here again. We know that you do not have eternal life if you are a unrepented sinner.  The SOUL can die. 
*1 Timothy 6:15,16*  New King James Version (NKJV)
15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen. God alone is immortal. Not humans it is a gift. Those destine for hell will not receive immortality, and burn forever. 
Where do the dead go when they die?  To their Grave
*Job 21:32* King James Version (KJV)
32Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb
*Acts 2:29, 34* New American Standard Bible (NASB)
29 “[a]Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is *with us to this day. 
34 For it was not David who ascended into [a]heaven, but he himself says: 
   ‘THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, 
“SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
1 Corinthians 15:51-53New American Standard Bible (NASB)
 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised [a]imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on [c]the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. Now remember the word says blessed are those who died in Christ, this is their reward. 
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep [a]in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a [c]shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive [d]and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 
1 John 5:11-13 King James Version (KJV)
 11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 
 12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 
 13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Ok here is the thing all of these scriptures go together, they answer the questions. What happens in death.  You are asleep knowing nothing.  They are asleep. Death is a rest. Those in the grave or waiting for the Return of Jesus, but they are not even aware of anything at all. Everything about the those who have died no longer exist. We cannot speak to them or they to us. Their thoughts and plans cease to exist. 
The spirit and the air or the same thing.  Your very breath is the spirit within you it has life that was given to you from God. When you die the breath returns to God it is nothing without the body. It is not waiting, it is not pleading for anyone it is no more. The Word says it is sleeping, knowing nothing. 
Just because a belief is common doesn’t make it true or correct. It is important to go scripture by scripture, line by line, precept by precept in order to understand the mystery. 
Also Demons or fallen angels can speak and can reveal themselves if they choose too. It’s only to deceive you.*


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## blazingthru (Mar 8, 2012)

Unfortunately, this article is based on a parable and you cannot make a judgement on a parable this parable has nothing to do with heaven or hell.  Most mainline churches base their belief on this parable and others say its in the word of God and God makes no mistakes but the truth of the matter is it has more meaning then what is says as do all parables. This parable is about the Jews, the gentiles and the Pharisees. Let the holy spirit guide us in all truths.


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 8, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> I believe Jesus Christ is God. He is also Man. He never lessened, shed away, or absorbed His human nature.


What does this have to do with what I said?  Please don't try to twist my words around...you are trying to imply that I don't understand who my God is and what took place at that moment.  My God is an awesome God!

I'm done here anyway so carry on.


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## blazingthru (Mar 8, 2012)

Do you believe that all the saved go into Abraham's literal bosom as soon as they die? Now obviously, that is a figurative expression. And it's not unfair for us to ask you whether you take that literal or not. So far we have been attempting to prove that this parable does not mean what it is often contended. It does not teach that the good go to heaven and the bad to torment the next minute after death. It does not teach that there is an immaterial spirit or soul which comes out of the body at death and remains in a conscious state. It does not teach that in the future world the lost and saved are so close to each other that they can see and talk to each other.

Now having found what it does not mean, let's see if we can discover, by comparing spiritual things with spiritual, just what Jesus meant to teach when He gave this story. I believe it can be proved that the rich man represented the proud, self-righteous Jews, and that the poor man represented the despised Gentiles; that Jesus was tactfully warning the Jews that if they continued to reject the Messiah of Moses and the prophets, the time would come when they would die to their national relationship with God as a chosen people, and that the Gentiles whom they despised and ignored would come in to take their place. The fact that he kept praying to father Abraham certainly proves that he was a Jew. None will deny that Abraham was the father of the Jewish nation and that they put a great deal of confidence in being Abraham's seed.

When John was appealing to them to repent, he added this: "And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." Matthew 3:9. On another occasion Jesus said to them, "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." Their answer was, "We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man." John 8:32, 33. It seems that this is quite sufficient to prove that the rich man who prayed to Abraham represented the Jewish nation.

This story says that the rich man fared sumptuously every day. No nation was ever favored with so many blessings as was the Jewish nation. Reminding them of this Moses said in Deuteronomy 4:7, 8, "For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the Lord our God is in all things that we call upon him for? And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?" , this is very, very true. And then notice how he continues. "Did ever people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of fire, as thou hast heard and live, Or hath God assayed to go and take him a nation ... by temptations, by signs, and by wonders, ... and by a mighty hand, and by a stretched out arm, ... Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice." Verses 33-36.

It was a purpose of God that they should share these favors and spiritual blessings with the Gentile people. There are plenty of texts to prove that God wanted the Jews to go out and preach these things to the Samaritans, to the Greeks, to the Romans, and to all the Gentiles. In the parable the rich man, instead of sharing his blessings with the poor man, he ignored him and looked upon him with scorn. This was precisely the attitude of the Jews toward the Gentiles. The Jews associated the Gentiles with the dogs and ignored them completely. We find an illustration of this in Matthew 15:21-28. "Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. And, behold, a woman of Canaan (now this is a Gentile) came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil." Notice next that Jesus assumed toward her the same attitude as did the Jews in order to teach his disciples how wrong it was. "But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me."
Now notice, , how she's acting the part of a beggar. "But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table." Yes, we remember similar language in the parable. She meant that she would be satisfied with just the crumbs of His service. "Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour." Oh, how strikingly this illustrates the story of the rich man and the beggar. It will be remembered that the rich man had no dealings with the poor man, and it's a fact that the Jews had no dealings with the Gentiles. When Jesus spoke kindly to the woman at the well, she was surprised and said, "How is it that thou, being a Jew, asketh drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans." John 4:9. This woman had Gentile blood in her and that's why the Jews had no dealings with her. Even the disciples were infected with this Jewish prejudice against the Gentiles, and they marveled that He talked with the woman.

When Peter was instructed in a vision to visit the Gentile family of Cornelius, when he went into the house, "he said ... Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation." Acts 10:28. So the very feelings of the rich man toward the beggar in the parable was to illustrate the feelings of the Jews toward the Gentiles.
The time came when the rich man died and lifted up his eyes in torment. Now what happened to the Jewish people? We know that the time came when they died to their former relationship to God as a chosen people, and the Gentiles did come in and take their place.  Deuteronomy, chapter 28. God said that these torments would come to them because of the way they dealt with others and the great message of truth that had been delivered to them. They did not share it with others, therefore the Gentiles did come in. They were grafted into the tree and took the place of the Jews as far as the spiritual blessings of God were concerned. Their last warning is in Daniel Chapter 9 they were given 490 years  to change. But they did not. 
Seventy Weeks and the Messiah
 24 “Seventy [t]weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to [v]make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and [w]prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.


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## Laela (Mar 8, 2012)

I believe that Jesus spoke in parables on purpose, for a reason. God has always been a God of Purpose. So the Parables Jesus spoke were living words, from the mouth of God, that served a Purpose. 

It's an injustice to ourselves to focus more on the probability of the reality of the stories, than on the spiritual Truth being conveyed directly to our hearts, from the Heart of God!

Parables either:
*
 "CONCEALED"..*.
      1. Jesus began speaking in parables because of the hardness of 
         many people's hearts - cf. Mt 13:10-17
         a. The disciples' attitude was such that they were blessed to
            learn "the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven" - Mt 13:
            10-12,16-17
         b. But because of the hard hearts of many in the multitude,
            Jesus began speaking to them in parables - Mt 13:13-15; 
            cf. Mk 4:10-12
         c. He would then explain the parables in private to His 
            disciples - Mk 4:33-34
      2. By resorting to parables, Jesus effectively separated the 
         truth-seekers from the curiosity-seekers!
         a. Those seeking the truth would say "Explain to us the 
            parable..." - Mt 13:36
         b. Whereas the simply curious could easily be sent away
      3. Indeed, Jesus used parables to carry out Divine judgement... 
         - cf. Mt 13:12
         a. "For whoever has (a good heart, listening ears), to him 
            more will be given, and he will have abundance (by virtue
            of the parable being explained)"
         b. "But whoever does not have (a good heart, listening ears),
            even what he has will be taken away from him (by virtue of
            being sent away with the multitude)"

OR: 

*"REVEALED"*...
      1. Even though the primary purpose in telling parables was to 
         conceal the "mysteries of the kingdom of heaven" from the 
         multitude!
         a. For once the disciples understood the basic meaning of the
            parables...
         b. ...the comparison of the "known" (earthly) truths with the
            "unknown" (heavenly) truths would shed further light on the
            unknown
      2. Therefore, with the help of the Lord's explanation of His
         parables we can learn more about "the mysteries of the kingdom
         of heaven" - cf. Mt 13:34-35

source: http://executableoutlines.com/


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