# Honest Question: Is Church Really Necessary?



## drmuffin (Aug 24, 2012)

After the debacle that happened at my church Sunday (I posted in OT) I'm really questioning me and church. I just don't want to go anymore.

To be honest, I feel so much better when I'm by myself praying, having a one-on-one conversation with God. I also have many Bible apps that pinpoints verses that deal with whatever I'm going through at the time.

When I was away at college, I tried to go to two different churches, and I never felt comfortable.

I need a major overhaul on my relationship with God, and I'm trying to get right, but I just don't think going to any church is helping.


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## Lilmama1011 (Aug 24, 2012)

I feel that way also but I happen to be more spiritual than religious. You can do the same thing you do at church you can do at home so if you feel you don't want to go, don't! At the end of the day you still receiving the word one way or another


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## Galadriel (Aug 24, 2012)

It can be hard finding the right church community, especially if you've had negative experiences and horrible examples from some.

However Christ established His Church for a reason, and if you're a Christian, it's your duty to not only be a member of the Church mystically, but VISIBLY.

The Church is both a visible and mystical institution, and is made up of the saints in Heaven and on earth.

Jesus says, "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it." (Matthew 16:18)

What is the purpose of the Church which Our Lord founded?

*The Church is God's chosen instrument of salvation on earth*

Through preaching the Gospel and baptizing people into the Church, we fulfill Christ's command: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," (Matthew 28:19)

We faithfully keep, teach, preach, and defend the authentic teachings of Christ and the Apostles, thus correcting the moral and spiritual error of the world. 

“I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6) 

"You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men." (Matthew 5:13) 

"So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter." (2 Thess. 2:15)

*God communicates spiritual graces and strength to us through His Church, especially through the Sacraments
*

And as they were eating, he took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to them, and said, “Take; this is my body.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. And he said to them, “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many. Truly, I say to you, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.” (Mark 14:22-25)

We are to celebrate the Lord's Supper (aka Communion, aka Eucharist) in Church, with fellow believers, according to Christ's command.

"All the believers devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching, and to fellowship, and to sharing in meals (including the Lord's Supper), and to prayer." (Acts 2:42)

"For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. For as in one body we have many members,e and the members do not all have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness." (Romans 12:3-8)


It is good that you do not want to take part in a particular community's immorality, drama, or foolishness. However by swearing off church altogether, you are cutting yourself off from the Body of Christ, closing yourself off from the friendship, grace, consolation, and help that comes with being part of the Church. 

You don't have to duke it out with the Enemy alone. Christ knew what He was doing when He gave us a Church


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## CarefreeinChicago (Aug 24, 2012)

As a child I was seriously mistreated by an ordained mister, so I hated anything associated with the ritual of church and to me at the end of the day they are regular men. I can read the bible myself and try to conduct my self accordingly.


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## Galadriel (Aug 24, 2012)

Lilmama1011 said:


> I feel that way also but I happen to be more spiritual than religious. You can do the same thing you do at church you can do at home so if you feel you don't want to go, don't! At the end of the day you still receiving the word one way or another





kinchen said:


> As a child I was seriously mistreated by an ordained mister, so I hated anything associated with the ritual of church and to me at the end of the day they are regular men. I can read the bible myself and try to conduct my self accordingly.




With all due respect, this is exactly what you don't want to happen. It  goes from "doing my own thing" to "I'm not religious...I'm spiritual" to  possibly falling away from the faith.


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## Lilmama1011 (Aug 24, 2012)

drmuffin said:
			
		

> After the debacle that happened at my church Sunday (I posted in OT) I'm really questioning me and church. I just don't want to go anymore.
> 
> To be honest, I feel so much better when I'm by myself praying, having a one-on-one conversation with God. I also have many Bible apps that pinpoints verses that deal with whatever I'm going through at the time.
> 
> ...



All I can say is do what's right for you and not what everyone says your life should be ran. If your not ready for church, it's going to show in the way you carry yourself. That's like some people who go to church because it's something their families have instilled in them but when they actually step aside from the bandwagon they realize in their hearts and soul that's not what they want to do or not ready to do at that moment. Your not a puppet and shouldn't move when someone else tells you to move, you make your own choices.


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## drmuffin (Aug 24, 2012)

That was very insightful Galadriel, and I totally forgot about Communion. I don't want to shut myself off from that. So how do I go about this? I normally go to church and never really talk to anyone. I sit with my mom, never say a word, and leave in a hurry. But it's hard to ignore certain facts, especially about the "leadership."

I could try going to another church in town, but trust me, they're all the same. Small town. Whatever's going on in mine, it's going on in the others. My goal is definitely not to exclude church, but at this moment I feel stuck.


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## drmuffin (Aug 24, 2012)

Lilmama1011 said:


> All I can say is do what's right for you and not what everyone says your life should be ran. If your not ready for church, it's going to show in the way you carry yourself. That's like some people who go to church because it's something their families have instilled in them but when they actually step aside from the bandwagon they realize in their hearts and soul that's not what they want to do or not ready to do at that moment. Your not a puppet and shouldn't move when someone else tells you to move, you make your own choices.



It's not that I'm not ready for church or religion. I'm trying to be a better Christian. That's the thing I want to improve. It's the actual brick and mortar church and the people in it that I'm having problems with.


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## Galadriel (Aug 24, 2012)

drmuffin said:


> That was very insightful @Galadriel, and I totally forgot about Communion. I don't want to shut myself off from that. So how do I go about this? I normally go to church and never really talk to anyone. I sit with my mom, never say a word, and leave in a hurry. But it's hard to ignore certain facts, especially about the "leadership."
> 
> I could try going to another church in town, but trust me, they're all the same. Small town. Whatever's going on in mine, it's going on in the others. My goal is definitely not to exclude church, but at this moment I feel stuck.



Find a church in your town with steady, godly leadership, and which has sound teaching. If this doesn't exist, find the church that closest resembles this. 

Attend, and if you are able, get involved in Bible study, or one of the ministries. Pray for them, pray with them; set an example for the others, and become holy.


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## Shimmie (Aug 24, 2012)

drmuffin said:


> After the debacle that happened at my church Sunday (I posted in OT) I'm really questioning me and church. I just don't want to go anymore.
> 
> To be honest, I feel so much better when I'm by myself praying, having a one-on-one conversation with God. I also have many Bible apps that pinpoints verses that deal with whatever I'm going through at the time.
> 
> ...



I read your thread in OT and I also responded.  

http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showpost.php?p=16661881&postcount=34

Just because you had a negative experience in one Church (or 2 or even 3), that doesn't mean all nor most Churches are like that.  

I've seen soooooooo many threads like this with this question posed and each time I see the same 'spirit' poised in the center of it... waiting to cast more doubt into the hearts of those who seek the answers of Truth.   

Jesus made it plain, that satan seeks to steal your souls and to sift you as wheat.  he seeks to dismantle your growth and your faith in God by alienating you from learning and growing in God's Word.    

Jesus is your power source and the Church is where Jesus has planted His connection .... you need the protection of a Pastor and brothers and sisters in Christ to uphold you and to protect you from the hits and shots of the enemy.     

Also as Galadriel shared, you need 'communion', please take heed to her words of wisdom and experience.   I truly do not have more to add, except that in your experience at your MOM's Church was simply a warning from God to get out of there and be where He has destined you to be.   

Please don't be robbed of your life with God here on earth.  Ask God to lead you to where He wants you to be and allow Him to lead you there.  Most of all, Trust God, Trust God with all of your heart and soul and your mind.   Don't be robbed of this gift from God.    Church is the one place you don't want to be out of in this day and time of which we live.     

And let me say this.   DO NOT allow yourself to be mislead by those who accept gay marriage (and yet proclaim to be Christians ); as there are many false Churches which have been raised up by satan to mislead and misguide people outside of Scripture.   There's a heavy spirit in these churches which speak of love, yet eliminate repentance of ALL sins.   

Love and peace to you...  :Rose:


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## Shimmie (Aug 25, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> With all due respect, this is exactly what you don't want to happen.
> 
> *It  goes from "doing my own thing" to "I'm not religious...I'm spiritual" to  possibly falling away from the faith*   .



Exactly.... please take heed to what Galadriel is sharing.   

satan knows how to jolt people from attending Church; he knows what offends people, after all, he is the 'master of offence' and deception.   

You need Church for your spiritual survival and your well being.


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## drmuffin (Aug 25, 2012)

Thank you Shimmie. I remember you in the OT thread, I thought about tagging you in this one. You may remember that I said in the OT thread, that I want to wait until I move to find another church. But I know that tomorrow is not promised.

In my heart, I believe that a move is on the very near horizon; as I can't imagine living here much longer. My sanity depends on it. My heart is heavy with a lot of internal an external problems, and every day is getting harder. A lot of it stems from me being here. I definitely feel like Orange TX is not where God wants me to be.


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## drmuffin (Aug 25, 2012)

Shimmie said:


> Exactly.... please take heed to what Galadriel is sharing.
> 
> *satan knows how to jolt people from attending Church*; he knows what offends people, after all, he is the 'master of offence' and deception.
> 
> You need Church for your spiritual survival and your well being.



My mom said the exact same thing every time I discuss it with her. I believe it wholeheartedly.


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## Shimmie (Aug 25, 2012)

drmuffin said:


> Thank you Shimmie. I remember you in the OT thread, I thought about tagging you in this one. You may remember that I said in the OT thread, that I want to wait until I move to find another church. But I know that tomorrow is not promised.
> 
> In my heart, I believe that a move is on the very near horizon; as I can't imagine living here much longer. My sanity depends on it. My heart is heavy with a lot of internal an external problems, and every day is getting harder. A lot of it stems from me being here. I definitely feel like Orange TX is not where God wants me to be.





You're going to be okay...    God never forsakes His loved ones and you are indeed loved of God...deeply.

Your footsteps are 'ordered' of the Lord.   Wherever you are meant to be, you shall be, for God says, 'He leadeth you in the paths of righteousness for His namesake."  (Psalm 23).   

It's good that you asked this question 'out in the open', for now people all over the world will be praying for you and satan is defeated in his attempts to deceive you from God's plan in your life. 

God bless you, 'Sweetheart'.      You're going to be okay and free to follow Jesus.


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## drmuffin (Aug 25, 2012)

You just made me smile the widest smile! God Bless you Shimmie. And God Bless you Galadriel. I'm about to do some deep soul searching and figure out the steps I need to take in order to get right with the Lord.


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## ROZELIDA_80 (Aug 25, 2012)

http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/pos...utm_campaign=Feed:+DGBlog+(Desiring+God+Blog)


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## Shimmie (Aug 25, 2012)

drmuffin said:


> You just made me smile the widest smile! God Bless you Shimmie. And God Bless you Galadriel. I'm about to do some deep soul searching and figure out the steps I need to take in order to get right with the Lord.



Ahhhh, I see   And you have a very pretty smile that God loves.  

Keep smiling.  There's so much more to life than you've had a chance to experience.   The best thing is that you will not be alone.  God is with you each step of the way.    

Receive your gifts and blessings.   You have a Ministry in you which will help others who will have the same questions about Church and God.   God is preparing you to minister to their hearts and lead them closer to Him. 

You are an 'Orchid' in God's garden of love and beauty.   Orchids are special and receive extra care.   

Here's a birthday cake with lavendar orchids (along the top)....  







See,  God has a special arrangement just for you... in His garden.


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## drmuffin (Aug 25, 2012)

Shimmie said:


> Ahhhh, I see   And you have a very pretty smile that God loves.
> 
> Keep smiling.  There's so much more to life than you've had a chance to experience.   The best thing is that you will not be alone.  God is with you each step of the way.
> 
> ...



Well my birthday is in 10 days 

I just included in my prayer for God to place me wherever He wants me to be. I also asked Him to help me be more Christ-like and to be a better person and to do His will. I don't think I'm a bad person, but I don't think I'm being the best person I can be.


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## Shimmie (Aug 25, 2012)

drmuffin said:


> Well my birthday is in 10 days
> 
> I just included in my prayer for God to place me wherever He wants me to be. I also asked Him to help me be more Christ-like and to be a better person and to do His will. I don't think I'm a bad person, but I don't think I'm being the best person I can be.



  Really ?   And I haven't even checked your profile.  The names show up in your profile of those who are checking you out...   

HAPPY BIRTHDAY ... I'll be back in 10 days to make this greeting official. 

Oh, and none of us are at our best... God is STILL working on me Big Time     I am a major piece of work for Him... I thank Him for His mercy each and every day.    I can't live without God's Grace.  

drmuffin, I hope you've been able to have a good experience over here.  Life is always filled with 'stuff' and people with 'stuff' going on.   However, there are so many more happy moments and joys that God has for us all. 

I'll see you on your birthday... September 3rd  or  4th ?    We'll have an online party....


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## drmuffin (Aug 25, 2012)

Yay! It's the 4th. I'll be 25 and very thankful to make it this far! And I really need to hang out with you guys over here!

Oh yeah, there's definitely been some "stuff" going on over here. Joblessness, friendlessness, depression, body image issues. But I have plenty of great things too. I love my family to death, roof over my head, bed to sleep in, food to eat, clothes to wear. I'm just trying to make it over this hump! Count it all joy I guess.


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## loulou7 (Aug 26, 2012)

There’s some brilliant advice in this thread. I just want to add another verse, concerning fellowship.

_Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching._

Hebrews 10:25
New King James Version


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## Poohbear (Aug 27, 2012)

I do not think "church" is necessary for salvation nor spiritual growth. By "church" I mean "going to a building once or twice a week to watch a choir sing, listen to a preacher give a sermon, give money, and sit with and maybe talk with other church goers".  If you want to be entertained or looking for social interaction, then "church" would be for you.

Hebrews 10:25 is often used to put down people who do not go or stopped going to a church building every Sunday. That verse does not even mean that. It's talking about the assembling of ourselves together. That can be anywhere with other believers at any time. And most of these "churches" aren't really assembled. You just sit there, watch the show, pay your dues, and leave. Yeah, you may participate in one of the ministries that they have set up, but is it really making you closer to God or allowing you to gain more favor with God? No. 

In the end, the "church" goers will be trying to persuade Jesus Christ of how they did all these good works in His name, but Jesus will say depart from me you workers of iniquity, I know you not! Jesus is coming back for those without spot nor blemish...


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## Galadriel (Aug 28, 2012)

Poohbear said:


> I do not think "church" is necessary for salvation nor spiritual growth. By "church" I mean "going to a building once or twice a week to watch a choir sing, listen to a preacher give a sermon, give money, and sit with and maybe talk with other church goers".  If you want to be entertained or looking for social interaction, then "church" would be for you.
> 
> Hebrews 10:25 is often used to put down people who do not go or stopped going to a church building every Sunday. That verse does not even mean that. It's talking about the assembling of ourselves together. That can be anywhere with other believers at any time. And most of these "churches" aren't really assembled. You just sit there, watch the show, pay your dues, and leave. Yeah, you may participate in one of the ministries that they have set up, but is it really making you closer to God or allowing you to gain more favor with God? No.
> 
> In the end, the "church" goers will be trying to persuade Jesus Christ of how they did all these good works in His name, but Jesus will say depart from me you workers of iniquity, I know you not! Jesus is coming back for those without spot nor blemish...



I'm sorry that sitting, entertainment and socializing has been your only experience of church. I've visited Protestant churches and have enjoyed them, and saw the love and devotion they had for Our Lord, and the Word of God. 

As a Catholic, the center of our worship is the Sacrifice of the Mass with the priest, and we believe that Christ is truly present in the Eucharist.

As I mentioned earlier, the Church is a visible institution, and corporal worship (i.e., public worship as a group or body of people) was practiced and handed down to us by the Apostles. In fact, they were worshiping in the synagogues until they were finally kicked out by the Pharisees. Once the Roman Empire finally converted to Christianity, we came out of the catacombs and built churches.


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## LucieLoo12 (Aug 28, 2012)

Yes church is necessary and I don't see how any bible believing Christians can say that its not. The majority of the New testament speaks of the church and the establishment of it and how each one has a part in it. Paul wrote all his epistles to CHURCHES. No where in the bible does it never say church is not necessary. I don't believe in all sit at home and be spiritual stuff. You have to be taught the word of God...Jeremiah 23 said how God will give His sheep Pastors after his own heart. We have to stick to the WORD and not go by what our feelings or "common sense" tells us. I understand that ppl get hurt by the church and that really is sad, but don't let that discourage concerning churches. There are REAL churches out there. God will lead you to it, because His word says He will.


Don't let the enemy trick into thinking you don't need the church. You have a part in the body of Christ and God wants to use you in it


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Aug 28, 2012)

drmuffin, I was just counting my fingers we share the same birth date...see you then...




drmuffin said:


> Yay! It's the 4th. I'll be 25 and very thankful to make it this far! And I really need to hang out with you guys over here!
> 
> Oh yeah, there's definitely been some "stuff" going on over here. Joblessness, friendlessness, depression, body image issues. But I have plenty of great things too. I love my family to death, roof over my head, bed to sleep in, food to eat, clothes to wear. I'm just trying to make it over this hump! Count it all joy I guess.


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## ellebelle88 (Aug 28, 2012)

Sorry to derail your thread OP, but I have a question:

I am in graduate school in a new state 14 hours away from home. A year ago, I finally found a church here that I love (choir, pastor, church members, services to the community -- all great)! The only problem is that it's an hour away. I can't afford to go there and back every Sunday so when I found out they offered streaming services online, I have started watching it online from my home. Last Sunday (as always), the message was so good and I found myself crying and praying in my home. What I got out of the experience was the same as being in church.

Is watching church online not enough? Do I need to be in a church every Sunday to receive my blessings? What am I missing by watching it from my home?


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## LucieLoo12 (Aug 28, 2012)

If you have to miss church every now and then because of school/work, or whatever reason thats fine. It just should not be a lifestyle and mindset of not going to church.God will still bless you at home while you are watching the services because of your sincerity. You can't go because you can't afford it, not because you dont want to go.


You should not have the mindset of "I dont need a church"...




ellebelle88 said:


> Sorry to derail your thread OP, but I have a question:
> 
> I am in graduate school in a new state 14 hours away from home. A year ago, I finally found a church here that I love (choir, pastor, church members, services to the community -- all great)! The only problem is that it's an hour away. I can't afford to go there and back every Sunday so when I found out they offered streaming services online, I have started watching it online from my home. Last Sunday (as always), the message was so good and I found myself crying and praying in my home. What I got out of the experience was the same as being in church.
> 
> Is watching church online not enough? Do I need to be in a church every Sunday to receive my blessings? What am I missing by watching it from my home?


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## Poohbear (Aug 28, 2012)

LucieLoo12 - But what if you absolutely positively get nothing at all from going to a church service? I'm serious. Maybe its my personality of being an introvert, but I get nothing out of going to church. I've never been blessed from going to church. Going to church made me feel like it was ok to sin which I did not agree with. They would make it like other things are sins that really weren't sins.

Sent via Android LHCF App


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## LucieLoo12 (Aug 28, 2012)

Then you need to find the right one but don't disregard church all together. 
The bible speaks about Christ being ahead of the church. So if Christ is head of it, it must be very important.

The worst mistake people do is generalize all churches off the few that have visited. I really hate that. That's like if a few black women are loud and trashy and ppl say "See how all black women are". That's not fair .
They are still some churches out there that are real and genuine.





Poohbear said:


> @LucieLoo12 - But what if you absolutely positively get nothing at all from going to a church service? I'm serious. Maybe its my personality of being an introvert, but I get nothing out of going to church. I've never been blessed from going to church. Going to church made me feel like it was ok to sin which I did not agree with. They would make it like other things are sins that really weren't sins.
> 
> Sent via Android LHCF App


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## Poohbear (Aug 28, 2012)

LucieLoo12 said:


> Then you need to find the right one but don't disregard church all together.
> The bible speaks about Christ being ahead of the church. So if Christ is head of it, it must be very important.
> 
> The worst mistake people do is generalize all churches off the few that have visited. I really hate that. That's like if a few black women are loud and trashy and ppl say "See how all black women are". That's not fair .
> They are still some churches out there that are real and genuine.



Christ is the head of the Body of Christ, not of every single man-made church. No where in the bible does it say that "Christ is the head of the church".

I guess it's just my personality then, or something deeper than my personality. I seriously have no feeling or upliftment from going to church. In case you do not know, I used to go to church every single Sunday. I used to teach youth for Sunday school and for Wednesday night bible studies. I didn't feel like I was more saved or more in favor with God from going to church. It was like going to work for a couple hours a week without pay. How come no one gets that? 

I'm really not trying to put down churches or anything but I just wish someone can understand how I feel. Maybe it is because I am not a people person and do not like to talk to people. Maybe it's because I am socially awkward. Even when I was in the church, I did not feel the presence of God nor Jesus. I felt alone like a ghost like I always do until someone wants me to do something. Other than that, no one really cares about me.


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## Galadriel (Aug 28, 2012)

ellebelle88 said:


> Sorry to derail your thread OP, but I have a question:
> 
> I am in graduate school in a new state 14 hours away from home. A year ago, I finally found a church here that I love (choir, pastor, church members, services to the community -- all great)! The only problem is that it's an hour away. I can't afford to go there and back every Sunday so when I found out they offered streaming services online, I have started watching it online from my home. Last Sunday (as always), the message was so good and I found myself crying and praying in my home. What I got out of the experience was the same as being in church.
> 
> Is watching church online not enough? Do I need to be in a church every Sunday to receive my blessings? What am I missing by watching it from my home?



Your church sounds great! Glad you found a good community. 

In answer to your question, I would only watch services streaming if I were bedridden at home. If you are physically able, and you're not detained by an emergency or emergency-related job (police, fire, paramedic, etc.) then offer up the sacrifice of that one hour drive to God and make it to church.


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## Laela (Aug 28, 2012)

> _*Ephesians 5:22-33* {Amplified Bible}
> 
> 22 Wives, be subject (be submissive and adapt yourselves) to your own husbands as [a service] to the Lord.
> 23 *For the husband is head of the wife as Christ is the Head of the church, Himself the Savior of [His] body.*
> ...


----​ 
I agree, "the church" s not the physical buildings.. but collectively the Church is the Body of Christ...  

 The phrase “the Body of Christ” is a common New Testament metaphor for  the Church (all those who are truly saved). The Church is called “one  body in Christ” in Romans 12:5, “one body” in 1 Corinthians 10:17, “the body of Christ” in 1 Corinthians 12:27 and Ephesians 4:12, and “the body” in Hebrews 13:3. The Church is clearly equated with “the body” of Christ in Ephesians 5:23 and Colossians 1:24. [Source: GotQuestions]





Poohbear said:


> Christ is the head of the Body of Christ, not of every single man-made church. No where in the bible does it say that "Christ is the head of the church".


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## Belle Du Jour (Aug 28, 2012)

Poohbear, I grew up going to a Pentecostal church and I have nothing negative to say about that experience.  However, when I went on to college, I stopped going to church.  I also believed that I didn't need church to be saved and that church was just a building and that I could just be spiritual with God at home.  Thankfully the grace of God still kept me covered and I kept my moral standards.  I started feeling something was missing from my life and tried so many denominations.  I remember going to a few mega-churches and the music was pumping, people looked like they just rolled out of the club  and they were having good social time.  I could barely get a hymn or a Bible reading.   The last church I went to was an episcopal church and I liked the style of worship because it was more traditional but I knew I could never join because of their stance on homosexuality.  Finally, I moved and started looking for a church (again!).  I went to Catholic mass one Sunday because I was thinking about converting and I have been going to church every Sunday since!  

Once I understood the purpose of worship (as Galadriel stated) it became irresistible to me: all the "smells and bells" like the incense (representing purification and our prayers rising up to Heaven as it stated in Revelation) and Holy Water (symbolic of our Baptism and cleansing) and the main event--the Eucharist.  We should go to church because Christ tells us plainly that we have to eat this bread and drink this cup or we have no life in us.  He was being serious!  You can't have holy communion at home or through a televangelist.  I know God is truly present at church because when I was going through conversion classes (for about 8 months) I couldn't partake in the Eucharist and it became a yearning in my spirit.  I NEVER experienced that feeling before in my life.  I started looking forward to Church and if there was any reason to go to church?  First Friday adoration?  Recollection?  Young adult meeting?  I took it.  Even this summer, I've had the opportunity to go to daily Mass and I have.  It is truly a blessing to be in the house of the Lord.   In my mind, I have no excuse for not going to church.  I could be traveling or in a foreign country--you will find me in Church trying to follow along in French, Italian, Latin, etc.  My obligation is to God.

So I would say before you write off going to church and worship, consider doing some research on how the apostles worshiped and what is pleasing to God.  Try a catholic church  (you knew I had to throw that in).   Consider reading Scott Hahn's Marriage Supper of the Lamb (which describes how church/mass is eerily similar to the Marriage Feast in Revelations.  Church is heaven on earth!  God bless.


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## Laela (Aug 28, 2012)

Poohbear... God DOES indeed care about you. I care about you.. I hope you don't take my posts to you as picking on you. You know we can go 'round the mulberry bush sometimes..   

It's disheartening to read the bolded and I'm not sure I understand it, but sincerely hope you won't continue to feel that no one cares about you ..that's a lie from the pit of hell that the devil is trying to make you accept. You are loved here... 





Poohbear said:


> I'm really not trying to put down churches or anything but I just wish someone can understand how I feel. Maybe it is because I am not a people person and do not like to talk to people. Maybe it's because I am socially awkward. Even when I was in the church, I did not feel the presence of God nor Jesus. *I felt alone like a ghost like I always do until someone wants me to do something. Other than that*, no one really cares about me.


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## LucieLoo12 (Aug 28, 2012)

Poohbear said:


> Christ is the head of the Body of Christ, not of every single man-made church. No where in the bible does it say that "Christ is the head of the church".


 

Um yes it does 


   Eph 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife, *even as Christ is the head of the church*: and he is the saviour of the body.


@Poohbear


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## victorious (Aug 28, 2012)

Poohbear said:


> Christ is the head of the Body of Christ, not of every single man-made church. No where in the bible does it say that "Christ is the head of the church".
> 
> I guess it's just my personality then, or something deeper than my personality. I seriously have no feeling or upliftment from going to church. In case you do not know, I used to go to church every single Sunday. I used to teach youth for Sunday school and for Wednesday night bible studies. I didn't feel like I was more saved or more in favor with God from going to church.* It was like going to work for a couple hours a week without pay. How come no one gets that? *
> 
> I'm really not trying to put down churches or anything but I just wish someone can understand how I feel. Maybe it is because I am not a people person and do not like to talk to people. Maybe it's because I am socially awkward. Even when I was in the church, I did not feel the presence of God nor Jesus. *I felt alone like a ghost like I always do until someone wants me to do something*. Other than that, no one really cares about me.


 
Pooh, I wasn't going to read this thread. But I'm glad I did. You totallly summed up some feelings I've had for a long while. I may not know all that you're going through, but I *truly* understand those two bolded parts in your post. I've been burned out. 

I couldn't keep up with mid-week activities and rehearsals in addition to office responsibilities. I got there early and left 2 hours after most went home on Sundays. I already had Monday morning blues going to work, and I started feeling the same about Sunday mornings too. I was an empty shell running around doing too much.

After a church split, relocation, and merge, things changed. I couldn't deal with the egos. I had to put my work face on at church to deal with a few people, and that was crazy to me (maybe I was too idealistic). It was too much to handle in addition to family issues.

I want to find somewhere that I can sit down for a bit and blend in the background for a while. Eventually join one ministry and get involved. I never liked being up front and could care less about getting any credit. I'm more of a behind-the-scenes kind of person. Nowhere is perfect, but there's a church home somewhere.


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## LoveisYou (Aug 28, 2012)

Pooh I understand, I've attended cliquish unwelcoming churches, and I know the feeling. We as believers are supposed to operate in love, but sometimes we don't. In fact, I've noticed that a lot of Christians are a respecter of persons often neglecting people outside their circle.

But don't be dismayed....pray.

Ask God to send you to a church where the truth is preached and His love abides. I prayed for a church home and He led me to one.


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## Poohbear (Aug 28, 2012)

LucieLoo12 said:


> Um yes it does
> 
> 
> Eph 5:23
> ...


LucieLoo12

Define "church" though biblically without going to an internet article about it? Will the bible say anything about in order to get to heaven, you must be a member of a church, give your tithes, and attend worship services? You can sin like hell all week but as long as you're in church, you're saved? I don't think so.

It is not saying Christ is the head of the church as in the churches that are set up today where men go to worship each other.

For instance, my father is a pastor of a church, but I do not feel like Christ is the head of the church there. I feel like my father is the head of that church. It's like a dictatorship/cult there.

Church has not helped me get any of the blessings that I have that others may consider blessings. These material things don't last forever. Once I die, I cannot take anything with me. My money, my clothes, my car...all that is staying here on earth. I want to be blessed in a spiritual way. And no church has done that for me ever. So therefore, that's why I say Christ is not the head of the church as in the churches set up today.


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## Poohbear (Aug 28, 2012)

Belle Du Jour

Thanks for your post. I grew up in the Baptist denomination. Maybe that has something to do with it. I find that most of you here that talk good things about church are not Baptist. Y'all are some other denomination...maybe that's why?

In my search for a new church after leaving the church that my father pastored, I did come across a church that I kinda liked. It was a Pentacostal/Seventh Day Adventist church. It was quite different than what I was used to since they had people speaking in tongues, they are prophets, anointing of oil, and prophecy.  The women wore head coverings and long skirts. When I went there, I felt welcomed. After the morning lesson, they had a lunch period which I liked and then went into service which lasted til 7:30pm. This was on a Saturday, not on Sunday. After service, the pastor, his wife, and some of the members took me out to eat. I really liked that. Even though I may not agree or really have a stance on speaking in tongues and prophecy, I really did not mind it at this church. 

I always have this urge to go back but it's over 50 miles away from where I live now. I've visited a few churches in my town and did not like them... one was a big black baptist church, one was a small black pentecostal church, and one was a small white church, I think it was baptist or non-denominational.  

I never been to a Catholic service, however, I have just a slight idea of what it's like. I went to a private Catholic college from 2002-2006 and I attended a Mass once that happened either before convocation or it was on some other random occasion.

So I don't know. Right now, I don't feel like I should just go to a church here in my town just to say "hey, I go to church" and not get anything out of it except sitting there like a bump on a log and no interaction. This usually happens in churches that are clique-like. I've never been successful with cliques or groups of people. I'm more of a one-on-one type of person.




Belle Du Jour said:


> Poohbear, I grew up going to a Pentecostal church and I have nothing negative to say about that experience.  However, when I went on to college, I stopped going to church.  I also believed that I didn't need church to be saved and that church was just a building and that I could just be spiritual with God at home.  Thankfully the grace of God still kept me covered and I kept my moral standards.  I started feeling something was missing from my life and tried so many denominations.  I remember going to a few mega-churches and the music was pumping, people looked like they just rolled out of the club  and they were having good social time.  I could barely get a hymn or a Bible reading.   The last church I went to was an episcopal church and I liked the style of worship because it was more traditional but I knew I could never join because of their stance on homosexuality.  Finally, I moved and started looking for a church (again!).  I went to Catholic mass one Sunday because I was thinking about converting and I have been going to church every Sunday since!
> 
> Once I understood the purpose of worship (as Galadriel stated) it became irresistible to me: all the "smells and bells" like the incense (representing purification and our prayers rising up to Heaven as it stated in Revelation) and Holy Water (symbolic of our Baptism and cleansing) and the main event--the Eucharist.  We should go to church because Christ tells us plainly that we have to eat this bread and drink this cup or we have no life in us.  He was being serious!  You can't have holy communion at home or through a televangelist.  I know God is truly present at church because when I was going through conversion classes (for about 8 months) I couldn't partake in the Eucharist and it became a yearning in my spirit.  I NEVER experienced that feeling before in my life.  I started looking forward to Church and if there was any reason to go to church?  First Friday adoration?  Recollection?  Young adult meeting?  I took it.  Even this summer, I've had the opportunity to go to daily Mass and I have.  It is truly a blessing to be in the house of the Lord.   In my mind, I have no excuse for not going to church.  I could be traveling or in a foreign country--you will find me in Church trying to follow along in French, Italian, Latin, etc.  My obligation is to God.
> 
> So I would say before you write off going to church and worship, consider doing some research on how the apostles worshiped and what is pleasing to God.  Try a catholic church  (you knew I had to throw that in).   Consider reading Scott Hahn's Marriage Supper of the Lamb (which describes how church/mass is eerily similar to the Marriage Feast in Revelations.  Church is heaven on earth!  God bless.


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## Poohbear (Aug 28, 2012)

Laela - I wish I could feel the same way. I will PM you back. 



Laela said:


> Poohbear... *God DOES indeed care about you*. I care about you.. I hope you don't take my posts to you as picking on you. You know we can go 'round the mulberry bush sometimes..
> 
> It's disheartening to read the bolded and I'm not sure I understand it, but sincerely hope you won't continue to feel that no one cares about you ..that's a lie from the pit of hell that the devil is trying to make you accept. You are loved here...


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## FrazzledFraggle (Aug 28, 2012)

I read this article awhile ago that might give you some perspective. I believe this Answer is in response to someone's question in your similar situation:

http://www.gotquestions.org/hurt-by-church.html

Question: "I have been burned and hurt by the church in the past. How can I overcome this and renew a passion for church and a desire to attend church?"

Answer: The pain caused by a church is a “silent killer.” This doesn’t mean that the words and events that “burned” and hurt your heart are not very ugly and public. It is a “silent killer” because of what it does deep in the fabric of the mind, heart, and soul of the wounded. If not dealt with, it will destroy future happiness, joy, and well-being. The collateral damage always negatively affects the ministry and outreach of the church, too, and some churches never recover. Recognize that the behavior which brought such devastation in your heart is not much different than the hurt any of us can encounter in the workplace, marketplace, or home. The difference is we just don’t expect God’s people to behave like those without Christ in their lives. The church is the one place almost everyone agrees should be safe, accepting, forgiving, and free from conflict and pain. Yet, in most churches, at least some elements of strife, conflict, and hatred creep in and shatter that dream.

It happens more in some churches than others. The spiritual health of people in a church and the strength of leadership determine how prevalent and to what extent that divisive behavior can gain control. Out of control, it has the effect of a termite infiltration that slowly and surely decays the foundation of the spiritual life of a congregation.

For you, it is important to turn your focus away from the people involved and the church itself and with laser focus identify the root cause of your pain, turmoil, and disillusionment. Honestly identify what you are feeling. If you are like most, here are some possibilities: anger, sorrow, disappointment, rejection, hurt feelings, jealously, threatened, fear, rebellion, pride, feeling foolish, ashamed, embarrassed, blame, loss… Find out what is at the core of your hurt—not what someone said or did to you, but what is really causing your pain? Then search the Scriptures to discover what God says about what is really hurting you. Take a Bible concordance and look up each word and read, think, pray, and apply the scripture reference. For example, you may think that you are angry when in reality you feel rejected. What does God say about rejection? He says, “Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you” (Hebrews 13:5); “I have loved you with an everlasting love” (Jeremiah 31:3); and, “Surely I am with you always" (Matthew 28:20).

When you truly identify the root of your pain, God has a balm of wisdom, compassion, and love to generously apply to heal to your wound(s). If you call on Him for this, your focus quickly becomes riveted on Him rather than on someone else, or dwelling and rehearsing the event over and over that caused you harm. Admittedly, you truly may be harmed, injured, or offended. You certainly feel it. Those are by-products of deeper, more important realities that have derailed your passion for God, His church, and His purpose for your life. This has soured your taste, and if unattended, it will lead to a root of bitterness that will negatively affect every fiber of your soul and will rob you of any possibility of finding fulfillment in Christ. You do not want this to happen in your life.

How do we keep hurtful experiences from moving their destruction into the fiber of our souls? The book of wisdom from the Bible says we must “guard your heart above all else, for it determines the course of your life” (Proverbs 4:23, NLT). We guard our hearts by choosing the thoughts, feelings, attitudes, and actions we hold. Guard your heart in this situation by refusing to rehearse what happened over and over, dwelling on the people who hurt you, and laboring over the weaknesses of the church. This will take humility. “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble” (James 4:6; Proverbs 3:34). It will take forgiving attitudes and actions (Matthew 18:22; Mark 11:27; Ephesians 4:32; Colossians 3:13) with no hint of vengeance (Romans 12:19). Mostly, it will take the power of the Holy Spirit working in and through you (Ephesians 3:16).

Don’t blame God for how His children behave. Don’t abandon the church, either. There are always many more dedicated, grace-filled, loving, and forgiving people than not in most churches. Seek them out. Spend time with them. If you cannot find them, find another church (it is rare that you cannot find them even in the most difficult church environment). The church is God’s idea, and He protects it faithfully even though He is pained often by its behavior.

There is a strong warning throughout this answer that a wound of this kind, if unattended, will penetrate deep into the soul and destroy any chance of living an abundant life in Christ (John 10:10). You can have hope because you are seeking healing. It is now up to you to do the right thing and turn your focus to the place, no, the Person, who will truly transform your life above and beyond this hurt in the following way:

Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
--Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:28-30


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## Galadriel (Aug 28, 2012)

Poohbear, do you also happen to be an introvert? I'm an introvert and social type / group type situations are so painful. Luckily I'm a "high-functioning" introvert so I can at least deal with other people for a while before withdrawing


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## Poohbear (Aug 28, 2012)

victorious - WOW! You sound like me!!!

I first started off in a baptist church in a different town with my family. This church probably had about 200 members or more but not all of them would attend type deal. There, my father was just a men's bible study teacher and a deacon. I would sing in the choir, usher, and would give children sermons once a month for youth Sunday. We were there from 1990 to 2002. We left because the pastor of that church ordained a woman as a minister to sit up in the pulpit and my dad did not agree with that. He is extremely against women preachers and I don't know why he has such an extreme view about it.

But anyway, we moved to a nondenominational multiracial church that was located in the inner city in late 2002. A minister that left the church we were at planted this new church. At this church, it was mainly a lot of young inner city children that had bad behavior. Hardly any adults. After a few months, I was asked to help teach these kids. So I assisted this white woman in teaching them. I kinda like the church but was still on the fence about it. It didn't quite fit my idea of a church just yet but the pastor there gave pretty good sermons. As time went on, I also started to help with counting the money that was collected on some Sundays.

Then in 2005, things changed. The pastor decided he didn't want to be a pastor anymore. He wanted to be a pharmaceutical sales rep.  I don't think it happened. So he decides to hand over the title to MY FATHER! Big mistake on this minister's part. My father got the big head when this happen to him. And he started being like a dictator. The white woman I was helping left the church and I was now the main teacher of the children there. Instead of some Sundays, I was counting the money every Sunday and even had to deposit the money into the church bank account when the treasurer was out sick (he's an old fat man with a lot of health problems). My dad would make me run the power point slide show, make me do flyers and bulletins, and come up with material for VBS. And he was very unappreciative with the things I did. He would always find something to complain about and then brag about it in front of church folks. His sermons sounded so off based, just full of his opinions about things. I think this other minister that used to be there messed my father up even more. This minister was a 35 year old virgin at the time who was a strict Calvinist who convinced my dad that God doesn't love everyone and that Jesus didn't die for everyone and that only the NASB version of the bible was the best translation. 

Then one day in 2007, after doing all this stuff, teaching the kids every Sunday morning and Wednesday nights, my dad asked me to teach the women's class and I said no, I was already doing enough. And he said I was like Jonah in the whale and didn't love God enough and that I was empty. That day really changed the way I saw everything concerning church. That's when my atheist-like feelings came about and I started researching other Christian beliefs. Then in 2010, I made my depart from his church. Of course he said all types of bad things to me such as I am like a pig waddling in its own pig slop and I'm like the prodigal son and he prays that I can be saved, all because I left HIS church. 

I didn't feel like church saved me or can save me. I felt empty at church like nothing. Just used for my abilities. No one cared for real. I could say much more about my experience there, but that's why I feel the way I do. Even after leaving his church in 2010, I still managed to visit a whole lot of other churches here and there and just still haven't found the one.



victorious said:


> Pooh, I wasn't going to read this thread. But I'm glad I did. You totallly summed up some feelings I've had for a long while. I may not know all that you're going through, but I *truly* understand those two bolded parts in your post. *I've been burned out.*
> 
> I couldn't keep up with mid-week activities and rehearsals in addition to office responsibilities. I got there early and left 2 hours after most went home on Sundays. I already had Monday morning blues going to work, and I started feeling the same about Sunday mornings too.* I was an empty shell running around doing too much.*
> 
> ...


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## FrazzledFraggle (Aug 28, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> Poohbear, do you also happen to be an introvert? I'm an introvert and social type / group type situations are so painful. Luckily I'm a "high-functioning" introvert so I can at least deal with other people for a while before withdrawing



That reminds of me a test I took that said I am also an introvert. I think I'll post a thread about it.


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## Poohbear (Aug 28, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> Poohbear, do you also happen to be an introvert? I'm an introvert and social type / group type situations are so painful. Luckily I'm a "high-functioning" introvert so I can at least deal with other people for a while before withdrawing



Galadriel - Yes, I am an INTJ. I've taken the personality test different times and have ranged from 89%-100% for the introverted portion of the test. Around people, my energy is drained. I withdraw quickly from people. I've tried to hang in there but like you said it can be quite painful.

See, I can share more behind a computer screen because I'm here alone and not around y'all face to face.  If we were having this discussion in real life, I would be sitting back listening and would make short comments. However, this is another thing I have noticed too when being around people, especially extroverts...when I do talk or try to explain something, they don't really care for what I have to say. They're are just ready for me to shut up so they can say their next sentence.  This has happened in all types of settings...in school, in church, on the phone, at work, around family/friends, or in some type of group setting.


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## Poohbear (Aug 28, 2012)

letskeepntouch - I read that gotquestions.org article before...By the way, pretty picture of you in your signature!


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## FrazzledFraggle (Aug 28, 2012)

Poohbear said:


> Galadriel - Yes, I am an INTJ. I've taken the personality test different times and have ranged from 89%-100% for the introverted portion of the test. Around people, my energy is drained. I withdraw quickly from people. I've tried to hang in there but like you said it can be quite painful.
> 
> See, I can share more behind a computer screen because I'm here alone and not around y'all face to face.  If we were having this discussion in real life, I would be sitting back listening and would make short comments. However, this is another thing I have noticed too when being around people, especially extroverts...when I do talk or try to explain something, they don't really care for what I have to say. They're are just ready for me to shut up so they can say their next sentence.  This has happened in all types of settings...in school, in church, on the phone, at work, around family/friends, or in some type of group setting.



That's the exact test I was thinking of. I just posted a thread about it. I'm an INFJ


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## Poohbear (Aug 28, 2012)

letskeepntouch said:


> That's the exact test I was thinking of. I just posted a thread about it. I'm an INFJ


Yep, its the Myers-Briggs test.  

Check out this site which gives names and descriptions to your personality type: http://www.personalitydesk.com/personality-types

You're The Counselor
I'm The Mastermind


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## Belle Du Jour (Aug 28, 2012)

letskeepntouch said:


> That's the exact test I was thinking of. I just posted a thread about it. I'm an INFJ



INFJ checking in too   I need my space


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## FrazzledFraggle (Aug 28, 2012)

http://typelogic.com/infj.html

This is a great site as well!


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## Galadriel (Aug 28, 2012)

Introverts, unite! (temporarily, before withdrawing so we can be by our lonesome)


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## FrazzledFraggle (Aug 28, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> Introverts, unite! (temporarily, before withdrawing so we can be by our lonesome)



You are so right about that. My husband can never understand why I'm exhausted and completely drained after work (in a job where i have meetings and deal with lots of people and their problems all day).


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## Poohbear (Aug 28, 2012)

LucieLoo12 said:


> *If you have to miss church every now and then because of school/work, or whatever reason thats fine.* It just should not be a lifestyle and mindset of not going to church.God will still bless you at home while you are watching the services because of your sincerity. You can't go because you can't afford it, not because you dont want to go.
> 
> 
> You should not have the mindset of "I dont need a church"...



LucieLoo12 - Not attacking you, but how is missing church every now and then "just fine" if you are supporting the notion that Christians need church for salvation and spiritual growth? erplexed Where do you draw the line for what constitutes missing church "every now and then" versus adequate church attendance? Most devoted churchgoers would say that person would need to give up school/work, or whatever reason and "sacrifice for the church" just to be in attendance so the pastor won't talk bad about ya...


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## drmuffin (Aug 28, 2012)

Yay Iwanthealthyhair67 go us! Sept 4 babies! We're awesome! 
Poohbear and Galadriel I'm with ya! Introvert all the way! I'm an INFJ.
And I wanted to give a little update since going to church this past Sunday:

Well my Pastor came back this Sunday and was none too pleased about the goings on since the Sunday before. His sermon, as he called it, was a little preaching and whole lot of teaching.

I tried to keep in mind some of the things that I've read in this thread. I really wasn't expecting a miracle to happen within me about how I feel about going to church, but I tried to keep an open mind. I felt the same, kind of detached, like an observer, the usual. It was an extremely out-of-place Sunday since that meltdown and the accidental murder/suicide of two of our junior deacons. That's a whole nother story. 

But, since the past couple of days, especially since posting this, there has been a surge of, the best way I can describe, a renewal of faith. I got excited and proud to be a Christian. I downloaded an app called Bible Glo (which is awesome, btw) and I started reading verses and felt an amazing sense of understanding. My faith is getting better. I have no idea what happened, but I like it and I want it to get stronger.


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## Galadriel (Aug 29, 2012)

letskeepntouch said:


> You are so right about that. My husband can never understand why I'm exhausted and completely drained after work (in a job where i have meetings and deal with lots of people and their problems all day).



I know, extroverts feed off of being around other people, but introverts get drained. Ironically, my BFF is an extrovert, so she does a whole lot of talking 

letskeepntouch in your siggy you resemble my sister . Very pretty!


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## Galadriel (Aug 29, 2012)

Poohbear said:


> @LucieLoo12 - Not attacking you, but how is missing church every now and then "just fine" if you are supporting the notion that Christians need church for salvation and spiritual growth? erplexed Where do you draw the line for what constitutes missing church "every now and then" versus adequate church attendance? Most devoted churchgoers would say that person would need to give up school/work, or whatever reason and "sacrifice for the church" just to be in attendance so the pastor won't talk bad about ya...



I think depending on the type of work (fire, police, EMT) it's understandable. None of those are my occupation, so there's really no reason for me not to go to church. I've only missed church when I was recovering at the hospital (or at home) due to childbirth. Other than that, I go. Although we have church every day of the week, Sunday is the solemn day of obligation where we are to dedicate the day to worship, prayer, religious reading, meditation, etc.


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## bubbletoes (Aug 29, 2012)

"The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands…" (Acts 17:24).


(DISCLAIMER) I have a biased opinion when it comes to religion in general, but I think if G-d made this world as physically beautiful as it is,and such a god is in everything , but one sits in a building to worship, it defeats the point.


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## Galadriel (Aug 29, 2012)

jawbsweet said:


> "The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands…" (Acts 17:24).
> 
> 
> (DISCLAIMER) I have a biased opinion when it comes to religion in general, but I think if G-d made this world as physically beautiful as it is,and such a god is in everything , but one sits in a building to worship, it defeats the point.



jawbsweet the passage that you're quoting (Acts 17:24) is when Paul was speaking of how the Lord God is not an idol like the pagan gods of the Romans . 

Here's a little more context:

22 Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus   and said: “People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious.   23*For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god.* So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship  —and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.
 24 “The God who made the world and everything in it   is the Lord of heaven and earth   and does not live in temples built by human hands.   25 And  he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he  himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.   26 From  one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole  earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the  boundaries of their lands.   27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.   28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’[b]   As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’[c]
 29 *“Therefore  since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being  is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and  skill.  ** 30 In the past God overlooked   such ignorance,   but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.   31 For he has set a day when he will judge   the world with justice   by the man he has appointed.   He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.” *

Remember, even in the Old Testament, God was worshiped at the Temple (which He Himself instructed the people of Israel to build). Not only was the Temple a place of public worship, but was also where God made His presence known in a most powerful and unique way:



> The Holy of Holies was hidden by a veil, and no one was permitted to enter except the High Priest, and even he could only enter once a year on the Day of Atonement, to offer the blood of sacrifice and incense before the mercy seat. In the wilderness, on the day that the tabernacle  was first raised up, the cloud of the Lord covered the tabernacle.  There are other times that this was recorded, and instructions were  given that the Lord would appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat, and  at that time the priests should not enter into the tabernacle (Leviticus  16:2). According to the Hebrew Bible, the Holy of Holies contained the Ark of the Covenant with representation of Cherubim.  Upon completion of the dedication of the Tabernacle, the Voice of God  spoke to Moses "from between the Cherubim". (Numbers 7:89).


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## Poohbear (Aug 29, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> I think depending on the type of work (fire, police, EMT) it's understandable. None of those are my occupation, so there's really no reason for me not to go to church. I've only missed church when I was recovering at the hospital (or at home) due to childbirth. Other than that, I go. *Although we have church every day of the week*, Sunday is the solemn day of obligation where we are to dedicate the day to worship, prayer, religious reading, meditation, etc.



Galadriel - what is it like to have church every day of the week? what do you and your church do Monday through Saturday? I like the idea of church everyday as opposed to once a week, especially if there's bible study going on rather than just sitting there watching a program. This could be another reason why I feel nothing from church services.


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## Galadriel (Aug 29, 2012)

Poohbear said:


> @Galadriel - what is it like to have church every day of the week? what do you and your church do Monday through Saturday? I like the idea of church everyday as opposed to once a week, especially if there's bible study going on rather than just sitting there watching a program. This could be another reason why I feel nothing from church services.



Our church service (Mass) is usually an hour long. It begins with an entrance procession starting with the altar server who holds up the Crucifix (to remind us of Christ's sacrifice on the Cross as well as to encourage us in carrying our own cross), followed by the lectors (those who will read Bible passages), the priest, those who will help administer Communion, and sometimes a deacon.

The order of service is:



First Reading (Old Testament Passage)
Psalm
Second Reading (New Testament passage)
We stand for the Gospel reading
Priest preaches a homily (sermon)
We recite the Nicene Creed (or Apostle's Creed)
We offer up prayers, put our money into the basket, and appointed ministers bring forth the gifts to the altar.
The priest repeats Christ's words at the Last Supper and consecrates the Communion bread and wine.
We say the Our Father and give each other a sign of peace (hand shake)
Those who are in a state of grace can go up and take Communion.
We have a closing prayer.
This is done every day of the week, though the Monday-Friday Masses are a little shorter than the Saturday/Sunday ones. 



If you go to church every single day and follow the Bible readings, you'll get through the entire Bible in a year. If you go on just Sundays and holy days, you'll get through the entire Bible in 3 yrs.



In addition to this, the Church has different ministries going on throughout the week, such as Bible Study, religious education, charity work, pro-life work, choir practice, etc.


It gets really fun when we enter Advent season and prepare for Christmas. We go all out on decorations, song and candles. However during Lent, we strip down everything to the bare minimum, and cover the icons and statues, and only reveal them on Easter Sunday.


Ok, I think I'm sort of rambling. I hope I answered your question


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## Belle Du Jour (Aug 29, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> It gets really fun when we enter Advent season and prepare for Christmas. We go all out on decorations, song and candles. However during Lent, we strip down everything to the bare minimum, and cover the icons and statues, and only reveal them on Easter Sunday.
> 
> 
> Ok, I think I'm sort of rambling. I hope I answered your question



I think all the Feast days, Holy Days of Obligation, seasons, etc are so cool!  Christmas is more than just 1 day (it's like 12!).  I have special days on my calendar like the feast of the Little Flower and Michaelmas that I plan to celebrate.   I just feel like church and worship are more active parts of my life now.  

Poohbear Going to daily mass is a blessing and as Galadriel said, we get a lot of scripture and you can see the parallel's between the old and new Testaments.  I also believe that going helps to keep me on the straight and narrow path (to avoid sin) because I can't receive communion in a state of mortal sin.


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## LucieLoo12 (Aug 29, 2012)

Poohbear


We may have to miss church for something. If I am throwing up sick and running fever, I am not going to church. If you have to work, are you going to quit you job because you may miss a service? Missing a service every now and then will not take your salvation away. But we are talking about being committed and belonging to a church. Being held accountable by a body of believers. If your mother died on a Sunday, would you say forget the rest of my grieving family Im going to church? Perfect attendance at church does not warrant salvation.


You are talking about not belonging to a church at all. Just being at home and learning about on God on your own. I dont believe in that, but if saint has to be miss church every now and then to go to work or they are sick, I don't believe they will be damned. 




Poohbear said:


> @LucieLoo12 - Not attacking you, but how is missing church every now and then "just fine" if you are supporting the notion that Christians need church for salvation and spiritual growth? erplexed Where do you draw the line for what constitutes missing church "every now and then" versus adequate church attendance? Most devoted churchgoers would say that person would need to give up school/work, or whatever reason and "sacrifice for the church" just to be in attendance so the pastor won't talk bad about ya...


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## LucieLoo12 (Aug 29, 2012)

. You are jumping topics. Are we talking about belonging to a church or the standard of churches today? Who said you can sin all week and be saved? No one even brought that up.


When I say this I am not trying to offend you, but you have alot of hurt built up on the inside of you and you will never be able to see clearly or make clear decisions with that in the inside of you. You have bitterness about your past experiences and you are trying to make everyone feel the same way as you do. Many posters have said that they have found good church homes but yet you want to continue to tear it down. I am sorry that you have been mistreated at the churches you have been to. That has not provided you with a fair experience .  The bible says you will know His disciples by the love they share one to another, and you have not experienced that love. You are def. right every church that is called a church is not the church of Jesus Christ, but dont let that discourage you. They are people living the standard you are looking for. Jesus said if you seek you will find. Please don't be discourage,and miss out on the true church. You remind me of the prophet Elias because he began to be discouraged because he did not see anyone living for the true God. But God told Him:

*Romans 11:4-5 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.*
*5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace*


It is still a people out there who live according to the word of God. But don't give up because then you make God a liar. If he said he as a remnant he has one.  Please be free from the hurt sis, because you deserve a life of peace.


Poohbear said:


> @LucieLoo12
> 
> Define "church" though biblically without going to an internet article about it? Will the bible say anything about in order to get to heaven, you must be a member of a church, give your tithes, and attend worship services? *You can sin like hell all week but as long as you're in church, you're saved? I don't think so.*
> 
> ...


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Aug 29, 2012)

Amen to the bolded, this is why I go to church regularly left to our own devices we have the propensity to fall into sin... 



Belle Du Jour said:


> I think all the Feast days, Holy Days of Obligation, seasons, etc are so cool! Christmas is more than just 1 day (it's like 12!). I have special days on my calendar like the feast of the Little Flower and Michaelmas that I plan to celebrate.  I just feel like church and worship are more active parts of my life now.
> 
> @Poohbear Going to daily mass is a blessing and as @Galadriel said, we get a lot of scripture and you can see the parallel's between the old and new Testaments. *I also believe that going helps to keep me on the straight and narrow path (to avoid sin) because I can't receive communion in a state of mortal sin*.


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## MrsHaseeb (Aug 29, 2012)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:
			
		

> Amen to the bolded, this is why I go to church regularly left to our own devices we have the propensity to fall into sin...



Not only that, Satan knows the bible. There is too much room to be led astray in false doctrine. I have heard some ridiculous things by TV preachers and I have heard some solid things as well. Without allowing God to lead you to a church that is truly His you can be misguided with trying to figure it out on your own simply because God didn't intend for that. I think the scripture was mentioned about God giving us pastors aaccording to His heart to feed us with knowledge and understanding. Yes we seek to know God intimately for ourselves but pastors are suppose to lead the flock and give you the tools and teach the Word correctly.

Sent from my 4G HTC Thunderbolt using LHCF


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Aug 29, 2012)

Agreed, this is why I don't believe that we should withdraw from church totally or forsake assembling with others who are like minded.  

Sheep need a shepherd, for those looking for a church it may take both fasting and prayer to lead you to one that is right for you.





MrsHaseeb said:


> Not only that, Satan knows the bible. There is too much room to be led astray in false doctrine. I have heard some ridiculous things by TV preachers and I have heard some solid things as well. Without allowing God to lead you to a church that is truly His you can be misguided with trying to figure it out on your own simply because God didn't intend for that. I think the scripture was mentioned about God giving us pastors aaccording to His heart to feed us with knowledge and understanding. Yes we seek to know God intimately for ourselves but pastors are suppose to lead the flock and give you the tools and teach the Word correctly.
> 
> Sent from my 4G HTC Thunderbolt using LHCF


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## Galadriel (Aug 29, 2012)

LucieLoo12 said:


> . You are jumping topics. Are we talking about belonging to a church or the standard of churches today? Who said you can sin all week and be saved? No one even brought that up.



I agree LucieLoo12  I think Poohbear has experienced hypocritical people who treated church as nothing more than a social gathering. I can understand why she's wary.

However I do agree that not all churches are like this, and that truly committed Christians strive against sin, not wallow in it.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Aug 29, 2012)

yes, but you shouldn't beat all churches with the same switch, from what I gather Poohbear 's hurt goes deep way back to her father who is a pastor.  It's going to take some forgiveness on her part towards him so that she can find a church for her to be comfortable in.

I pray that she comes to the point, she is missing out on so much and the Lord blesses both corporately as well as individually...




Galadriel said:


> I agree @LucieLoo12  I think @Poohbear has experienced hypocritical people who treated church as nothing more than a social gathering. I can understand why she's wary.
> 
> However I do agree that not all churches are like this, and that truly committed Christians strive against sin, not wallow in it.


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## Poohbear (Aug 29, 2012)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> Agreed, this is why I don't believe that we should withdraw from church totally or forsake assembling with others who are like minded.
> 
> Sheep need a shepherd, for those looking for a church it may take both fasting and prayer to lead you to one that is right for you.


Iwanthealthyhair67 - I seriously believe that God called me out of the church. Not the good churches you speak of, but just whole concept of the harlot church system, churches that have man's agenda and not God's agenda in mind.  The thing with me is that when I withdrew from the church my father pastored at, I started visiting other churches. While they were not like my father's church, my spirit just did not sit right with those churches that I visited. Only 1 church so far I felt okay at but it's over 50 miles away from me. I just haven't found a church yet where I can assemble with others who are like minded. That's the problem.




Galadriel said:


> I agree LucieLoo12  I think Poohbear has experienced hypocritical people who treated church as nothing more than a social gathering. I can understand why she's wary.
> 
> However I do agree that not all churches are like this, and that truly committed Christians strive against sin, not wallow in it.


Right Galadriel, and I'm not a sociable person. People have tried to change my personality all my life and it just doesn't work for me. "You need to be more outgoing" "more talkative" "open up more"... for what!? So I can be stomped on and put down even more? I don't think so.

Like my dad when he gets up to facilitate testimony time... he'll say, "Don't let the devil keep you in your seat." Why even say that? And then after service, he picks at me for not standing up to give testimony knowing my personality. I just don't have any testimony to give. I did that once before back in 2006 and felt like a fool. I gave testimony to how I was thankful for all these job interviews I had coming up with CPA firms. Some of the people in the church said that I would get one of those jobs. It was like 10 interviews. After interviewing with all these firms, I didn't get any job offers from any of them. That's the last testimony I ever gave in church.



Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> yes, but you shouldn't beat all churches with the same switch, from what I gather Poohbear's hurt goes deep way back to her father who is a pastor.  It's going to take some forgiveness on her part towards him so that she can find a church for her to be comfortable in.
> 
> I pray that she comes to the point, she is missing out on so much and the Lord blesses both corporately as well as individually...


You're right that my hurt goes back to mainly my father, however, I'm not beating ALL churches down...I am speaking in general about churches, not each specific one since I haven't been to all the churches in the world. I can't make a judgement on each specific church. I'm just talking about the churches that are apart of the "harlot church system"...the churches that are NOT about God and His true Word. Please don't take me the wrong way when I be saying stuff. I can be misunderstood alot but I'm honesty not putting down ALL churches because I know there has to be some good ones out there. I have forgiven my father, it's just that to this day, he does not realize what he has done or what affect it has had on me.


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## Galadriel (Aug 29, 2012)

Poohbear

I'll definitely be remembering you in my prayers. I hope that you can one day find a church community to call home, that will accept your personality without trying to change it. You're not alone!


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## loulou7 (Aug 29, 2012)

Poohbear, I'll also remember you in my prayers. My sincere hope is that you'll find a church home that will help you to continue to grow spiritually, uplift you, and support you as evil days become more prevalent. I think of the church as a hospital, because we are all sin-sick, and in need of a Savior. Many times you have to look around people and see Jesus, because Satan is always going to have something or someone there to distract, irritate, etc... Ultimately, in the end, it's about your relationship with the Lord.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Aug 29, 2012)

Poohbear Thanks for being candid I understand better now and I definitely know about being misunderstood ....I sincerely pray that you find a church that is bible based where you can grow spiritually and that shows the love of Christ, they are definitely few (remnant) and far between in times like these ...



Poohbear said:


> You're right that my hurt goes back to mainly my father, however, I'm not beating ALL churches down...I am speaking in general about churches, not each specific one since I haven't been to all the churches in the world. I can't make a judgement on each specific church. I'm just talking about the churches that are apart of the "harlot church system"...the churches that are NOT about God and His true Word. Please don't take me the wrong way when I be saying stuff. I can be misunderstood alot but I'm honesty not putting down ALL churches because I know there has to be some good ones out there. I have forgiven my father, it's just that to this day, he does not realize what he has done or what affect it has had on me.


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## Laela (Aug 29, 2012)

wow..that's deep... have you ever thought, that maybe God has been/is calling you to missionary work or even something unconventional? Ever  thought about seeking God's direction in earnest, or consulting with a spiritual leader about exploring those possibilities?





Poohbear said:


> I seriously believe that God called me out of the church. Not the good churches you speak of,* but just whole concept of the harlot church system, churches that have man's agenda and not God's *agenda in mind.  The thing with me is that when I withdrew from the church my father pastored at, I started visiting other churches. While they were not like my father's church, my spirit just did not sit right with those churches that I visited. Only 1 church so far I felt okay at but it's over 50 miles away from me. I just haven't found a church yet where I can assemble with others who are like minded. That's the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> Y


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## Poohbear (Aug 29, 2012)

Laela - I've had this thought twice in my life...once when I was a young girl and once last year...

When I was a young girl, between the age of 9-13, I had this desire to be a missionary person who would travel around the world to share the Bible to other people. I was really into reading the Bible at that time. I also desired to be a writer. I had no thoughts of going to college, getting a job, and making money to pay for stuff. Not even a family in the future was in mind at the time.

Then this thought was lost when I got to high school, started working a job, and when I went to college. The focus turned into making money. I eventually started teaching the youth at my father's church but it wasn't what I had in mind. Plus, it was really hard to teach the type of children I was teaching. These children were inner city kids with behavioral problems and mostly had dysfunctional families. It was good experience I guess.

Then in 2010, I stopped going to my father's church and started visiting other churches. Fast forward to May 2011. One of my best friend's mother is a minister. I was over her house one day and my friend was telling me that her mother does prophesies. I never really had a strong stance on whether I believed in prophesy or not, but I let her do a prophesy for me.  Her mother knew nothing of my situation or anything. She didn't know I had stopped going to church or anything else going on in my life. She told me that in my future I would be someone who would try to draw all men unto God. She said she didn't even see marriage nor a family in my future. I'm 28 years old right now with no children.  She said I would be like a sole vessel for Christ and that God was preparing me right now even though there may be a lot of confusion in my mind. 

So that's what I remembered from what she said...I'm not sure what to think of that...



Laela said:


> wow..that's deep... have you ever thought, that maybe God has been/is calling you to missionary work or even something unconventional? Ever  thought about seeking God's direction in earnest, or consulting with a spiritual leader about exploring those possibilities?


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## MrsHaseeb (Aug 29, 2012)

Poohbear said:
			
		

> Laela - I've had this thought twice in my life...once when I was a young girl and once last year...
> 
> When I was a young girl, between the age of 9-13, I had this desire to be a missionary person who would travel around the world to share the Bible to other people. I was really into reading the Bible at that time. I also desired to be a writer. I had no thoughts of going to college, getting a job, and making money to pay for stuff. Not even a family in the future was in mind at the time.
> 
> ...



Poohbear  You will be just fine. God will heal the hurt you may be feeling from those old experiences.

Sent from my 4G HTC Thunderbolt using LHCF


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Aug 30, 2012)

Poohbear praying for you ...


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