# A "Lesser Existence"



## Aviah (Sep 11, 2009)

Had a conversation with SO yesterday, stating that I wanted to have fun. He asked what I meant, and I told him play dodgeball, football, tag, be goofy (something childish and energetic). He asked me if I meant I wanted to be male. I said something along the lines of is it only men that can play sports or have fun? He left the conversation off there and we didn't speak properly for the rest of the day (we were both at work emailing one another). I was the kind of girl that loved that kind of stuff as a kid, wrestling with boys, racing them (and winning) playing football with them, all of that. It was great fun. Is it that its "manly/boyish" to want to do those things as a 20 year old? I see it as me being playful and energetic.
In any case he said (not in direct reference to me ) that women were trying to be men these days (meaning that women try to do "manly" things, doing extreme sports, being power hungry, competitive etc). So it makes me wonder, where do the lines of reasonable godly feminism lie? Are we just meant to sit in skirts and talk among ourselves, fluffing about makeup, cooking and cleaning (no offense to anyone)? Not aspiring to compete with men in anything (the work force), be submissive, gentle and suscribe to what I call a "lesser existence", because to me , God has made us with differences but beyond marriage and ministry, what is social conditioning, and what is God?


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 11, 2009)

Aviah said:


> In any case he said (not in direct reference to me ) that women were trying to be men these days (meaning that women try to do "manly" things, doing extreme sports, being power hungry, competitive etc). So it makes me wonder, where do the lines of reasonable godly feminism lie?



I'm reminded of Jean d'Arc?  She lead armies!  Deborah the judge?  Wow, just wow.  Now, SO is probably feeling that competition right on his back.  He didn't marry his mother, he married you who likes sports and play.  You both need to talk.  Cooking and cleaning...and when men do it in the professional kitchen, they tell the women they don't have the same talents lol!  Men are buttheads sometimes.  

It's social conditioning.  We're all just a minute out of a veil and chadoor covering up everything.  Well, in my own culture, women were highly respected and chose the leaders and the direction for the tribes.  There was much more equality than European women had.  But largely, American males still have a puritan mindset and that means that women are still  low on the totem pole.  It's social conditioning.  You gotta talk with him about it...not email.  Ask him if he wants an old wrinkled granny for a wife or a vibrant, charming and beautiful, physically fit and challenging partner!!!


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## Aviah (Sep 11, 2009)

Though women did those things, it seems almost universal that women are (at least traditionally) confined to the "gatherer" role. I don't compete with him with anything. I do challenge his ideas though, and he didn't want to finish talking about it because he said I'm always ready to pounce (yeah its true what can I say lol). But we will come back to it, its very important, but he is not the topic I was interested in, because I am not that girly girl- feminine, sure, and I have my girly times but its not a constant thing.
I just wonder why men (even in the bible) have usually have the leader position, and women the co-leader, or sub- position in some way or form, and if we can really change that, or if its "just the way it will always be". I do agree its social conditioning more than God, but it started somewhere...


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## Crown (Sep 11, 2009)

> I just wonder why men (even in the bible) have usually have the leader position, and women the co-leader, or sub- position in some way or form, and if we can really change that, or if its "just the way it will always be". I do agree its social conditioning more than God, but it started somewhere...


 In my understanding, it started in Eden.
First, Eve was created in Adam, not the contrary. Adam was first formed, then Eve.
Second, Eve was deceived by the snake and transgressed.

1Tim. 2.9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 2.10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 2.11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 2.12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 2.13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 2.14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 2.15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

1Cor. 11.3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
11.8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. 11.9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. 

I agree with you, there is a line.
Submissive does not mean ghost. And a woman does not have to submit to every man.
Competition until teenage is refreshing. But a grown woman (Christian) should do what she thinks that she has to do in the work area and/or in the family area and everywhere. No need for competition (unless for a game; game means competition, but not in the same team).

In a team, there is several positions, everybody can not be president or captain. As Paul said, the lesser part of the body is very important, and the body needs this part to do its best.

I consider a normal relation between a man and a woman in the marriage like a oyster and its pearl.
We, women, are the pearls.
Man/Woman should be a win/win situation.
I know I can do all a man does and even better.
But, God gave us a special and precious mission. A better understanding of our mission is fundamental.
[FONT=&quot]That does not mean a lesser existence.[/FONT]


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## momi (Sep 11, 2009)

I agree wholeheartedly with Crowns post.  

Remember we are all Eve's daughters... she was guilty of not being satisfied with what she had, but focusing on the one thing she could not...


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## Sharpened (Sep 11, 2009)

We have been systematically conditioned to believe femininity or simply being female is a position of weakness, that being like men is what we should strive for. As a former tomboy, I rejected that notion; playing football and house on the same day was not unusual for me. At some point, I put playtime aside because that stuff was starting to hurt, LOL.

I still watch a variety of sports and play around with DH on occasion, no competition though. Thankfully, I have another excuse to play...my kids!


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## Shimmie (Sep 11, 2009)

Crown said:


> In my understanding, it started in Eden.
> First, Eve was created in Adam, not the contrary. Adam was first formed, then Eve.
> Second, Eve was deceived by the snake and transgressed.
> 
> ...


 

 You speak a Powerful Message of Truth, well worth the adorn of a 

'Crown'...











_Submissive does not mean ghost.

And a woman does not have to submit to every man.

I consider a normal relation between 
a man and a woman in the marriage 
like a oyster and its pearl.

We, women, are the Pearls.

Man/Woman should be a win/win situation.

God gave us a special and precious mission. . .

That does not mean a lesser existence..._

--------------------------------


Praise God for this powerful word.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 11, 2009)

Traditional roles and psyches, they are both important roles and they complement one another, male to female.  Some are not more important than others.  We might have different roles, where some seem on top and others less important, but we cannot exist well without the support of the other.  We're equal, just different.

Consider the male as the head.  Well, in many cases he is.  But the the woman is the neck and she can turn the head any direction she wishes.


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## momi (Sep 11, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Traditional roles and psyches, they are both important roles and they complement one another, male to female. Some are not more important than others. We might have different roles, where some seem on top and others less important, but we cannot exist well without the support of the other. We're equal, just different.
> 
> _Consider the male as the head. Well, in many cases he is. But the the woman is the neck and she can turn the head any direction she wishes_.


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## mswoman (Sep 11, 2009)

I agree with crown, as a younger wife 23, I had to find out that my husband and I had different perspectives of what women did for fun or leisure. I was a manager at my job and I realized that I couldn't at that way at home and had to regress on may things.

Anyway, what sports do you think ya'll could do together? What types of things did ya'll do in the past that you were able to get your "energy" all out?


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## Shimmie (Sep 12, 2009)

To be honest,* it's the men, *who actually feel *they* are the *'Lesser Existence'*, especially in this time we live in.   

I know........I know, .........as women we've been 'forced' to become strong and independent in many ways, I'm one of them, for sure.   
Yet the truth is that men simply want to feel that 'we' as women need them.  

I don't think that it's the sports so much as it is the more 'aggressive' or 'rough' the sports actiiviity is, it sends a 'signal' to most men, that we competing with their strength and that we have no need for them as men.  

The key word is 'signal'.  And it's a signal that speaks to them, 'Hey Man, your testosterone is watered down ... literally. 

Football, baseball, wrestling, boxing is 'Their' territory.  And it's also activity that men quite agressively compete with other men with; it's about the challenge and with or against a woman, it's not aa fair challenge to them.   Men do not want women as opponents.    And history itsself shows that when men are in 'action', their strength was our attraction to them and they were always the champions of the arena, be it sports, the hunt, or corporate enterprise.  

This may sound contrite, but men still need to feel their are the 'hero' and that we need them and that there's nothing obsolete about them. 

As women, there are a lot of things we do which give men the signal that we do not need them.   In many, many areas of life,  we 'do' tend to take over, even with the 'little things'.   

If he takes too long taking out the trash, 'we' become frustrated and do it ourselves.   

When it comes to paying bills, as women we 'need' security, we know we can't let the lights go out or the rent/mortgage has to be paid on time,  and if we make good money, we'll pay that bill, before he will, especially if we feel he's taking too long to do so.   It may be in an early marriage and his finances have not been built up to have a substantial savings and he's still living check to check.   The wife will tend to pay those bills when due, before he has a chance to.   

In many ways, the wife thinks she's being 'helpful', but the actual message being sent to him is, "he's not needed'.  

Pastor tells us that no matter how good our intentions may be or no matter how hard it may be for 'us' as wives to 'hold' back, that it is better for us to just 'hold out' a little and allow our men to feel like men, which is 'needed' more than 'we' paying the bills to them.   Even in Ministry, we have to allow them as men to feel 'needed'.   

As strong as I've had to become in life (being mother and father and business woman), I think it's wonderful that we still have the 'treasure' of men still among us, that think that even playing ball is too harsh for a woman.   

When I'm traveling, I notice that men immediately reach for my carry on bag and place it into the overhead bins for me and when the planes have landed, they 'remember' to retrieve my bag for me, without me having to ask.   Men hold doors open for me; this morning at work, a gentleman, waited for me to enter the lobby and he held the elevator for me;  

My 'friend' loves that he's much taller than me (I'm 5' 1), and he loves to reach for the 'high' things that I often cannot reach.   For what he's really saying is that, I want to be 'Your Hero'... let me live up to that for you, for to me you are my Queen.   

I have a very active life, Dancing, gym; *weight training*, power walks, and I love it, but I love being a 'girl' and holding back just enough to let him be my 'hero'.  

That's the 'secret', always let him feel he's your hero, and that you need him; that he is your Treasure.   

We love our men.. yes we do.  :reddancer:


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 13, 2009)

momi said:


>




LOL.  I hadn't expected any thanks for that one ahaha.  In my own case, I got  lots of this kind of advice. But I always reasoned that if the head were worthless, what good would a neck be?


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## dicapr (Sep 13, 2009)

Your SO seems to have some other issues going on.  I have been around men and women in relationships all my life who enjoyed healthy competition with each other-basketball, baseball, tennis, bowling ect.  I was listening to a pastor on the radio the other day and he was saying that men do not understand how to have the "protector" role anymore with the lack of fathers in the home.  They rely on sterotypes rather than seeing how they can truly be the protector of their wives or girlfriends.  In his example, men can be intemeidated by a woman making more money than he does.  However, the modern man does not see that he can still take the lead and be the head and protector in that situation.  He said simply taking the irritating phone calls from bill collectors, dealing with problems in charges on the bills, ect can be a way to restore his place as a "man" without the need to restrict the woman to sterotypes or keep her from achieving in order to make himself feel better.

I think his sentements about what you should be as a woman speaks volumes.  You need to think about what he expects your role to be in the relationship. If he has clear ideas of what feminity is and you do not meet them it is something that needs to be discussed.


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## momi (Sep 13, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> To be honest,* it's the men, *who actually feel *they* are the *'Lesser Existence'*, especially in this time we live in.
> 
> I know........I know, .........as women we've been 'forced' to become strong and independent in many ways, I'm one of them, for sure.
> Yet the truth is that men simply want to feel that 'we' as women need them.
> ...


 
Amen Shimmie - I love this post.

There are things I am perfectly capable of doing myself, but I call my husband to "assist" me.  

You are right - a good man LOVES being a hero.  I have so much I could say about this - but Shimmie you have typed a mouthful.


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## SND411 (Sep 13, 2009)

So is everyone saying we have to "fake" being helpless in order to make men feel good? I'm sorry, but I find that kind of strange...


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## SND411 (Sep 13, 2009)

Aviah said:


> Had a conversation with SO yesterday, stating that I wanted to have fun. He asked what I meant, and I told him play dodgeball, football, tag, be goofy (something childish and energetic). He asked me if I meant I wanted to be male. I said something along the lines of is it only men that can play sports or have fun? He left the conversation off there and we didn't speak properly for the rest of the day (we were both at work emailing one another). I was the kind of girl that loved that kind of stuff as a kid, wrestling with boys, racing them (and winning) playing football with them, all of that. It was great fun. Is it that its "manly/boyish" to want to do those things as a 20 year old? I see it as me being playful and energetic.
> In any case he said (not in direct reference to me ) that women were trying to be men these days (meaning that women try to do "manly" things,* doing extreme sports, being power hungry, competitive etc*). So it makes me wonder, where do the lines of reasonable godly feminism lie? Are we just meant to sit in skirts and talk among ourselves, fluffing about makeup, cooking and cleaning (no offense to anyone)? Not aspiring to compete with men in anything (the work force), be submissive, gentle and suscribe to what I call a "lesser existence", because to me , God has made us with differences but beyond marriage and ministry, what is social conditioning, and what is God?



I think this is nonsense. There are many extreme sports ie gymnastics, soccer, etc that women do. And when has being power hungry solely a male trait? It seems more like a HUMAN trait to want power. And being competitive is only for men? That's silly. Women are competitive in a lot of things. We see this all the time.

I'm tired of men who do not have direction (Im not talking about your SO) attempting to tell woman what their WOMANHOOD is suppose to be. If you cannot figure out your "manly" role, why tell a woman her role? It looks like a "log in your own eye" situation.

Also, human beings are very dynamic. It is not possible to put people in boxes (very stict gender roles).


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## Laela (Sep 13, 2009)

Good question!

I think sometimes we women do ourselves an injustice by trying too hard not to "emasculate" a man... whatever that means. 



AfriPrincess411 said:


> So is everyone saying we have to "fake" being helpless in order to make men feel good? I'm sorry, but I find that kind of strange...


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## SND411 (Sep 13, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> To be honest,* it's the men, *who actually feel *they* are the *'Lesser Existence'*, especially in this time we live in.
> 
> I know........I know, .........as women we've been 'forced' to become strong and independent in many ways, I'm one of them, for sure.
> Yet the truth is that men simply want to feel that 'we' as women need them.
> ...



My only Hero is Christ. We should not have to put men on a pedestal to make them feel good. Whatever happened to humility?


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## SND411 (Sep 13, 2009)

Laela said:


> Good question!
> 
> I think sometimes we women do ourselves an injustice by trying too hard not to "emasculate" a man... whatever that means.



A true man of God doesn't need a woman to do anything in order to feel like a "man." A lot of men feel inadequate on their own. They need to take that up with God, not just merely blaming women AGAIN for their problems.


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## Laela (Sep 13, 2009)

Well, AfriPrincess.. we are >>>>>>> here <<<<<<<



When two people marry they are supposed to be two whole individuals becoming one..not two halves becoming a whole. I didn't marry half a man..  So I find it amusing that I'd feel I can't get the car door myself even if he's around. Some of that stems from "gentility" and expectations that society dictates.

I shouldn't have to do anything to make a man who is secure in himself be any more of a man than he already is.


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## momi (Sep 13, 2009)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> So is everyone saying we have to "fake" being helpless in order to make men feel good? I'm sorry, but I find that kind of strange...


 

Im just telling you what works for me and "my man", I dont think this is scriptural... just old fashioned wisdom that has worked for my household. 

When I decided I did not have to prove anything to him he stepped up and became more of the man I needed him to be. When I allowed him to show his strength in small things, it gave him the courage to be strong in areas where I really "needed" him to be.


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## SND411 (Sep 13, 2009)

momi said:


> Im just telling you what works for me and "my man", I dont think this is scriptural... just old fashioned wisdom that has worked for my household.
> 
> *When I decided I did not have to prove anything *to him he stepped up and became more of the man I needed him to be. When I allowed him to show his strength in small things, it gave him the courage to be strong in areas where I really "needed" him to be.



But didn't you have to prove that you weren't _that_ put together and need his manly help?

I guess if it works for you, then that's fine.

But I feel both spouses can be strong and support each other equally.


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## momi (Sep 13, 2009)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> But didn't you have to prove that you weren't _that_ put together and need his manly help?
> 
> I guess if it works for you, then that's fine.
> 
> ...


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## Shimmie (Sep 13, 2009)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> So is everyone saying we have to
> 
> *"fake" being helpless in order to make men feel good?*
> 
> I'm sorry, but I find that kind of strange...


Nooooooooooooo!   

  Never...Never...EVER 'Fake it' with a man on anything.  Never!   Don't fake it with sex, chores, or even being social.  

What we are to do is 'step back' and 'allow' them to 'handle' thngs.  

I know for sure that I cannot reach the top shelves, neither at home or when I'm shopping.   Instead of graping a broom handle or step ladder, ask 'Honey' to reach it instead.   I'm letting him know that I 'do' need him to reach for me _beyond my limitations_.    It's the liittle things, like handing him the jar of pickles and saying, "Honey, can you open this for me, please?" And doing so with a warm smile of appreciation.  

Sure, I can run warm water over the vacum sealed jar, tap the life out of it, or even use one of those jar grippers, but to do so, says clearly to him, " I don't need you...".   Men love to feel needed.  Even if/when they grumble or mumble, they still love to feel needed.


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## Shimmie (Sep 13, 2009)

momi said:


> I am strong - so much so that I have to work very hard at being submissive. I dont consider myself weak - I just call it "strength under control".
> However if I did not prove to him he could be strong in even the smallest endeavours how would he have the confidence to show strength in the areas I believe God has called him to be? I show a different type of strength in the areas that he is weak and he allows me to do that with no problem.



  momi, after 'me' having to be the 'strong one' for so long as a single parent, going to college, working and surviving just to give my children a decent 'life' that they deserved to have,  I lovvvvvvvvvvvvve being 'pampered' for a change.   

I think (key word: 'think') that many men have been ruined by 'we' women who don't place our strengths in perspective.   Let our men be men to us.  Today's woman has made men feel so unneeded that they have placed their chilvary on dusty shelves; they have no one to give their full selves to.  

I will even let him 'cook'...   I don't have a problem letting him lift those _heavy_ skillets for me at all...


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## Shimmie (Sep 13, 2009)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> *But didn't you have to prove that you weren't that put together and need his manly help?*
> 
> I guess if it works for you, then that's fine.
> 
> But I feel both spouses can be strong and support each other equally.


Women who 'allow' their men to lead are indeed the strongest of all women.  

Yes...'we' are.   We're not afraid to 'trust'.   We're not afraid to be who we are as women, whiich *'physically'* we are weaker in comparison to men.  

Why does any woman have to work so hard at proving that she is just as strong as any man and that anything he can do, she can do, not just also, but better.   Hmmmmm, no trust.  

We're stronger when we 'allow' ourselves to trust 'him' to be our 'man' all the way.   If I take out the trash, I'm saying I don't trust him to do it.  If I pay a bill, that he normally pays, I'm saying, I don't trust him to be responsible; ;and that I'm the strong one, not him.


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## Shimmie (Sep 13, 2009)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> *A true man of God doesn't need a woman to do anything in order to feel like a "man."*
> 
> A lot of men feel inadequate on their own. They need to take that up with God, not just merely blaming women AGAIN for their problems.


 
True...  Very true.   However, a True woman of God doesn't have to wear his pants, just to feel she is equal to him or any other man.   Women today are sending signals loud and clear, that men are not 'needed' in their lives.  A man should open the car door, it says, Let me help you; I care, I'm here to protect you, you are a treasure to me.  

Scenerio:   Man and his wife (his 'Lady') are in the car.  He parks, gets out and continues on his own.   On the other side, 'you're' left in the car; attempting to get out on your own, he's already left you sitting there.  

 Not good, not a nice way of showing his wife (his Lady) that she's worth waiting for.  

*Better:*  He gets out of car; walks to my side, opens the door, extends his hand to help me out of the car.  Makes sure I have my handbag; he helps me drape my jacket or Pashima over my shoulders; we walk together into the restuarant or where it is we are visiting.  He cares about keeping me safe.


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## dicapr (Sep 13, 2009)

I think the idea of how women need and want to be cared for has changed. Men are not adapting to modern day needs and are not being taught how they are needed by a modern woman.  We need them to step up emotionally, not physically.  However we are not communicating this. Men get a false sense of accomplishment and women are doing them a disservice by not letting them know how much and how they are needed.  I do need a man to step up, but not to empty the trash or open a jar.  I need someone who is willing to put his emotional needs on hold if necessary to care for mine-just as I would do for him.  I was impressed by a pastor who was doing a seminar on how a man should care for his wife and he understood this.  He encouraged hugs for no reason at all, making sure that house hold headaches such as telemarketers or bill worries were exclusively his domain.  He told them to listen and comfort her when she came home from a hard day of work.  That means so much more and provides for a deeper than keeping up gender roles.


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## Aviah (Sep 13, 2009)

I'll be honest and say again- we didn't finish the conversation, so I don't know in depth what his thoughts on it are. That, in regards to my "spinoff" (this thread) is kind of irrelevant, I said it for background. He has never told me "what my role is" or what to do in any other way, or asked me to "be more feminine". Nor is he the kind of person to put pressure on anyone to do what they do not really want to do, or be what they or not. He cares for me the way I am,and if he had a problem with certain things (in reason) we can work on it. But I will not change my personality on what he feels his feminine. - Just to clear that up.
I do wonder about the line between making a man feel more of a man/ego stroking, and playing down yourself. I think of it as, just the way we as women may like to be told we are beautiful, or have him be sinsitive towards our needs as a woman, it makes us feel more womanly, or cared for (in most cases I hope lol). For men the equivalent would be those little things that boost his mood, his day, or stroke his ego. I love to make him feel good, because it makes me feel good and vice versa, but that doesn't mean that I have to be less. reminds me of the saying " a giant who lowers himself to shake the hand of a dwarf can always stand up again. Meaning (for me at least in this situation) that sure sometimes we can do things ourselves, but if it makes him happy, let him do it- it does not make me any less.
Though I'm finding the balance as one coming from a strong woman- led household of myself and older sister. The independent woman thesis of never needing a man was drilled dep into us and only now am I learning to balance, and understand that yes I am trong yes I can do it all on my own, and yes a man is not NECESSARY in order for me to live, but is a very beautiful addition. So is love


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## Aviah (Sep 13, 2009)

mswoman said:


> I agree with crown, as a younger wife 23, I had to find out that my husband and I had different perspectives of what women did for fun or leisure. I was a manager at my job and I realized that I couldn't at that way at home and had to regress on may things.
> 
> Anyway, what sports do you think ya'll could do together? What types of things did ya'll do in the past that you were able to get your "energy" all out?



I really don't mind, I'll play almost anything... He likes basketball and going to the gym though, both of which I want to try...


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## Laela (Sep 13, 2009)

If I have to "allow" him do anything _for a change_, what's that saying?   
I could be misunderstanding this, but that sounds like a man needs to get _a break _every now then so he can remember/ be reminded he's a man.. correct me if I'm wrong.. 

I see what you're saying there about strenghth in weakness... I agree. But if there's  balance in a marriage, IMHO, there'll be no need for either spouse to have to prove anything. 

There are men who have traditionally "feminine" roles at home, i.e. cooking/cleaning/babysitting and that won't make them any less of a man.

Doing the budget can be handled by the spouse who is better with numbers, and it's not necessarily always the man. It doesn't mean she's doesn't "need" him. Cooking is for whoeverso can, and that's not necessarily the woman. It's even optimal if both cook and share in the household chores.  A man secure in his manhood wouldn't see his contributions to family life as doing the "woman's job" and same for the woman .... that perception means puts either spouse in the position to take action to assuage any feelings of inadequacy.

*We're in this together* shouldn't translate to: _*You Tarzan, Me Jane*_  OR _*I am Woman, I am Invincible, I am Pooped.* _  Both are extreme opposites.




Shimmie said:


> Women who 'allow' their men to lead are indeed the strongest of all women.
> 
> Yes...'we' are.   We're not afraid to 'trust'.   We're not afraid to be who we are as women, whiich *'physically'* we are weaker in comparison to men.
> 
> ...


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## Aviah (Sep 13, 2009)

I agree Laela especially about household duties... Lord knows I cannot be chained to a house, and SO knows that for sure!


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## momi (Sep 13, 2009)

Laela said:


> If I have to "allow" him do anything _for a change_, what's that saying?
> I could be misunderstanding this, but that sounds like a man needs to get _a break _every now then so he can remember/ be reminded he's a man.. correct me if I'm wrong..
> 
> I see what you're saying there about strenghth in weakness... I agree. But if there's balance in a marriage, IMHO, there'll be no need for either spouse to have to prove anything.
> ...


 
I can appreciate your opinion - I just respectfully disagree.

_Titus 2:3-5_
_the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things— *4* that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, *5* to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed_

Why are older women instructed to "teach the younger women how to love their husbands?"  It is because it does not come naturally for us. Sometimes ideals that seem logical to us are just not God's way that is why we have to be "taught" by someone who has been married for more than 5 minutes how to "love a man".  

I am really grateful for this dialogue... maybe it will help someone avoid potential pitfalls early in their marriage.  There were older women that shared advice like this early in my marriage.  I looked at them like they were crazy.  Now I understand exactly what they were talking about.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 13, 2009)

dicapr;8802484a pastor on the radio the other day and he was saying that men do not understand how to have th[B said:
			
		

> e "protector" role [/B]anymore with the lack of fathers in the home.  They rely on sterotypes rather than seeing how they can truly be the protector of their wives or girlfriends.  In his example, men can be intemeidated by a woman making more money than he does.  However, the modern man does not see that he can still take the lead and be the head and protector in that situation. .



I don't know if I agree with this because women have been in the workplace in large numbers since WWII.  Not all men are raised in a fatherless home.  That is very recent compared to past decades leading back to WWII.  As far as the protector role, I think it's that they don't have full control.  That is a big difference than "protecting."  They can no longer control women under the law so now, they have to develop a different type of relationship with them, that of equality.


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## SND411 (Sep 13, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> True...  Very true.   However, a True woman of God doesn't have to wear his pants, just to feel she is equal to him or any other man.   *Women today are sending signals loud and clear, that men are not 'needed' in their lives.*  A man should open the car door, it says, Let me help you; I care, I'm here to protect you, you are a treasure to me.
> 
> Scenerio:   Man and his wife (his 'Lady') are in the car.  He parks, gets out and continues on his own.   On the other side, 'you're' left in the car; attempting to get out on your own, he's already left you sitting there.
> 
> ...



What about unmarried women who feel this way?


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## SND411 (Sep 13, 2009)

I think I understand what Shimmmie and momi are saying now. I guess I was confusing it with "ego-stroking."


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## Shimmie (Sep 13, 2009)

momi said:


> I can appreciate your opinion - I just respectfully disagree.
> 
> _Titus 2:3-5_
> _the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things— *4* that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, *5* to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed_
> ...


 
I'm grateful for this dialogue as well.    

I also thank God for the 'Mothers' of my Church who 'know'.   It may seem little or trite, but when a woman steps in to do something, she's teaching her husband that he doesn't need to do these things.   No matter how big or how small the 'issue' or task may be, it all adds up to what 'message' the woman is sending to the man in her life.  

One thing we have to realize is that a 'woman' is the very first and primary teacher that a man has in his life from birth.   Unless he was raised/reared by men only, a woman is his primary teacher.   Whatever his mother 'allowed' is what she taught him.   If he was allowed to leave his room a mess, and mom always cleaned it, he learned that he really didn't have to clean his room. 

If he was allowed to disrespect his mother or his sisters, and was never corrected, than he was taught to disrespect 'all' women.   And when 'wife' or 'girlfriend' comes along, whatever they allow, they are teaching him how to treat them.


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## Shimmie (Sep 14, 2009)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> What about unmarried women who feel this way?


They'll carry these feelings into their Marriage.   

I'll be honest; at the drop of a hat, I have the power to do most anything that a man can do, from being financially sound; to plumbing, painting, moving furniture, buying a home, and fully taking good care of me and my children.  

I've had to 'strong' all my life.  Even as a pre-teenager taking care of my younger sisters, while my mother (who was divorced) had to work two jobs.   I learned early to do it 'all'.    So... yeah, I'm as strong of a woman as they come.   I won't allow anyone to get over on me, no matter who they are. 

But there's something about being a woman, that allows me to 'chill' out and allow a man to do these hard things and 'enjoy' it.  It's God's gift to have the 'difference' of a real man in my life.   There's nothing like it.   All though I am able, I don't have to do it all.   And it works because 'he' loves being strong in my life.   I love him being strong.  He's a man and there are distinct differences between us that God designed which are beautiful.  

I understand what you are sharing and I agree with you as far as not being 'helpless'; I don't mean for any woman to be nor even 'act' helpless.   But in a relationship we 'yield' from being overly independent of one another.


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## Shimmie (Sep 14, 2009)

Laela said:


> If I have to "allow" him do anything _for a change_, what's that saying?
> I could be misunderstanding this, but that sounds like a man needs to get _a break _every now then so he can remember/ be reminded he's a man.. correct me if I'm wrong..
> 
> I see what you're saying there about strenghth in weakness... I agree. But if there's balance in a marriage, IMHO, there'll be no need for either spouse to have to prove anything.
> ...


Hey Darlin... 

My step-dad (God rest his soul ) always gave my mom his entire pay check...always.    She was 'better' at handling finances, but also because he worked two jobs and he wasn't able to focus on this as easily as she could.   So I understand what you mean by  this.

Perhaps I can help you to understand what I mean in this thread.   There are some women who simply have a 'take over' dispostion.  They have the "don't need a man for nuthin' mentality.  And rather than 'allow' him to treat her as a lady, she instead treats him like a child or not a man at all.  

In today's era, women 'trust' ourselves more than they trust their men...and without giving him a chance to even 'succeed'.  There are women who want to do and own it all; teaching men that they are not 'needed', so why even try to step up and be 'the man.'  

Does that make better sense?    

As for a man cooking for me...?   I have absolutely no problem with that at all.   As a matter of fact most of the men in my family are cooks and we love it.


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## Shimmie (Sep 14, 2009)

dicapr said:


> I think the idea of how women need and want to be cared for has changed. Men are not adapting to modern day needs and are not being taught how they are needed by a modern woman. We need them to step up emotionally, not physically. However we are not communicating this. Men get a false sense of accomplishment and women are doing them a disservice by not letting them know how much and how they are needed.
> 
> I do need a man to step up, but not to empty the trash or open a jar. I need someone who is willing to put his emotional needs on hold if necessary to care for mine-just as I would do for him.
> 
> ...


 
dicapr... 

As an 'unmarried' Christian woman, taking out the trash and opening a jar for me is 'quite' a hug...  

I agree totally and completely with the bolded... and that's exactly what I've been getting to in my posts.   Teaching our men that we 'need' them.  

When a woman comes off as too independent, especially with the 'little things' (jars, trash, etc.) men are being 'pushed away', hence he doesn't 'sense' that he's even needed to express sensitive affections towards her as well.   If she doesn't allow him to hold doors open for her, she's saying, I can take care of myself, even down to protecting the house from all sorts of evils. 

The 'trash and the jars were just tiny examples of big seeds that 'strong women' plant and then complain because a wall of trees have cut them off from the affections which lie in the hearts of their husbands (or sweetheart).

Whatever we ask of our men, waters the seeds for them to give us 'more' of all the love they have to give.   

We're saying, "Honey, I need you.  He says, here I am.  

Is it any different from 'asking' God our Father, even for the 'little things' in life.   We are communicating to God that we 'need' Him in our lives in every aspect of in, no matter how big or how small.    

Although our husbands are not God, they are still God's gift to us and if they do not feel we need them, they'll look for someone else who does.    Even as women, we want to feel needed by the men we love.  It's special and it's how love is intended to be; to love and to need each other.  Not push each other away with our over independence.  :Rose:


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## Shimmie (Sep 14, 2009)

This is a wonderful thread topic and an excellent exchange of communication.   It really is a blessing.    

*Aviah*... special thanks to your 'Sweetheart' and you too.


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## SND411 (Sep 14, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> They'll carry these feelings into their Marriage.
> 
> I'll be honest; at the drop of a hat, I have the power to do most anything that a man can do, from being financially sound; to plumbing, painting, moving furniture, buying a home, and fully taking good care of me and my children.
> 
> ...



I guess I'm biased because I don't want to get married and I always feel I need to be independent.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 14, 2009)

I don't think that women and men should "need" the other in the way that we appear incompetent without the other.  We complete each other spiritually.  That doesn't mean that I need to be coy and apparently "childish" in order to show a man that I need him.  What I need him for is to give love to.  He can't complete me psychologically nor spiritually.  I wish to share love, giving love and that emanates from G-d first.  Holding doors is nice...but listening to me is more valuable.


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## Aviah (Sep 14, 2009)

Thanks to you ladies also, I find this all very interesting myself. ITA that the way each woman wants to be cared for is different, for example, I do not mind getting out of the car alone. But love being pampered in other ways. I too, do not need a man to need me to feel worthy, but like when he asks me to help him with certain things too, so I guess it would mean more to a man to let me do the same.
Keep it coming ladies...
Its helped me see things differently


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## momi (Sep 14, 2009)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> I guess I'm biased because I don't want to get married and I always feel I need to be independent.


 

Hi Afri!  

Do you feel God has set you apart for singleness?

I believe these principles can apply regardless of your marital state.  Unmarried women can

Encourage holy living in the younger women.
Encourage men to pursue and marry because of the way they present themselves.
Embrace the sanctity of marriage by resisting inappropriate behavior from married men.

When I worked outside of the home I had to be very careful around men - because of the way I tend to carry myself men seemed to be drawn to me.  Not in a lustful way, but in a "i wish my wife was more like you" way.  While the comments may seem benign I would put myself in their spouses shoes.  I would not want my husband to make comments like that about some other woman - so I was able to direct their thoughts and attention back to their own homes.  How can you become a better husband/father?  What can you do to encourage this type of behavior in your own household?


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## Shimmie (Sep 14, 2009)

Aviah said:


> Thanks to you ladies also, I find this all very interesting myself.
> 
> *ITA that the way each woman wants to be cared for is different*, for example, I do not mind getting out of the car alone.   *But love being pampered in other ways. *
> 
> ...


 This is a VERY good thread topic Aviah...  

@ the bolded, I agree, each woman is different in her needs and expectations in the relationships she shares.    

I don't think any of us 'need' (neither are we in dire straits), to have a man to make us feel 'worthy', God has already done that for us in such a way that nothing in this life can be compared to it.   He died for us; of God's own choosing, He chose to die for us and that along places our worth far and above any man.   

I love what you shared about being 'pampered'.    That's me all the way.   

And I love when he asks me to do things for him as well.  Thanks for bringing this up.  This is a beautiful point that you've shared that I failed to mention. It works both ways, asking of one another in a relationship.


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## Shimmie (Sep 14, 2009)

momi said:


> Hi Afri!
> 
> Do you feel God has set you apart for singleness?
> 
> ...


 
   They were drawn to your light.  :Rose:  

@ the bolded... Pure Ministry.


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## Shimmie (Sep 14, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> I don't think that women and men should "need" the other in the way that we appear incompetent without the other. We complete each other spiritually.
> 
> That doesn't mean that I need to be coy and apparently "childish" in order to show a man that I need him. What I need him for is to give love to. He can't complete me psychologically nor spiritually. I wish to share love, giving love and that emanates from G-d first. Holding doors is nice...but listening to me is more valuable.


I agree with your entire post; bear in mind, that it's not about opening doors as a 'robot', he does so because he loves her even with the 'little things'.   It may not 'seem' like much, but it _speaks_ _volumes_ about what a man truly feels about the woman in his life.   :Rose:


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## Shimmie (Sep 14, 2009)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> I guess I'm biased because I don't want to get married and I always feel I need to be independent.


Bless your heart ... 

You can still be independent.    Afterall, none of us are helpless.   

Look at it this way.   Its' wonderful not having (key words:  _ not having_) to do it all by yourself.   You're able to 'share' life together completely.  It's not all on you.   I love men who don't use their women as crutches.  Men who step up to what they're supposed to do and not take advantage of the 'strong' in a woman.    We have enough 'dead beats' walking the earth, as it is.  

Plus:

When he 'opens' a jar, it saves your fingernails. 

I respect how you feel.      So don't mind me, I'm just enjoying being a Royal Princess.   God knows, I'm tired of doing err' thang.  I'm just resting and enjoying being _pampered._


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## Laela (Sep 14, 2009)

WHY DID MY POST ANSWERING MOMI GET DELETED?????


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## Laela (Sep 14, 2009)

I'm not sure what you disagree with... but I appreciate your posting the Titus woman, being older and of more understanding teaching the younger ones.

There's also the Proverbs 31 Woman, who is also doing all she can to keep the household going. She's industrious, resourceful, a good neighbor, kind and of good character. This  woman also has understanding... I'm still meditating on her because I believe that she can still exist today. Would the Proverbs 31 woman throw out the trash...? Maybe. ITA that time and experience yields knowledge and understanding, even in marriage. But it has to come from a woman of wisdom...Being married a long time is something I see at face value. Older sometimes is not always wiser.

If I had to get advice from a woman married 50-odd years who held on to her man despite him cheating on her, having out of wedlock children and even suffering some abuse and a woman married 20 years who has been happily married, husband never cheated on her and she's never been abused or treated like a doormat, there's no question whom I'd listen to.

I appreciate the dialogue as well. I'm not saying anyone is wrong or right, just seeing things from a different perspective.


momi said:


> I can appreciate your opinion - I just respectfully disagree.
> 
> _Titus 2:3-5_
> _the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things— *4* that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, *5* to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed_
> ...




I see where you and Momi are coming from: You both come from a perspective of understanding and awareness. But no two marriages are alike because there are individuals from different walks of life, with different life experiences who are developing a union over time that works for both of them. We can use the Bible as a guide, along with sage advice from older women who "know" on how to conduct ourselves as Christian men/women..but in the end I may not always agree that what worked for Mother Lewis will work for me in my marriage. This is why I believe a couple getting into the knowledge of their union should rely on and God and what works for them.

Momi mentioned earlier that she's sharing what works for her and her man...rightfully so. 

I agree... and understand what you're saying little better. I don't think I'm being understood at all.


Shimmie said:


> Hey Darlin...
> 
> My step-dad (God rest his soul ) always gave my mom his entire pay check...always.    She was 'better' at handling finances, but also because he worked two jobs and he wasn't able to focus on this as easily as she could.   So I understand what you mean by  this.
> 
> ...


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## SND411 (Sep 14, 2009)

momi said:


> Hi Afri!
> 
> *Do you feel God has set you apart for singleness?*
> 
> ...



Yeah, I do. But I will never tell my family. 

And your list is exactly what I want to do. I think your advice is very sound and wise.


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## Laela (Sep 14, 2009)

Shim,

I have to respectfully disagree with you on the bolded. .... perhaps I'm not understanding you. Women are nurturers by nature, so I can understand the mother being the primary _teacher _from birth...but where does the father come in in the teaching of the children in a two-parent household? Are you saying raising/teaching the children is soley the mother's responsibility??
How can I as the mother teach my son to be a man? What's the father's role?

What if mom allows the child to leave the room dirty but Dad won't have none of that..? Are you saying a child knows only what his mother teaches? Teaching should be the responsibility of both parents



Shimmie said:


> I'm grateful for this dialogue as well.
> 
> I also thank God for the 'Mothers' of my Church who 'know'.   It may seem little or trite, but when a woman steps in to do something, she's teaching her husband that he doesn't need to do these things.   No matter how big or how small the 'issue' or task may be, it all adds up to what 'message' the woman is sending to the man in her life.
> 
> ...


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## SND411 (Sep 14, 2009)

Laela said:


> Shim,
> 
> I have to respectfully disagree with you on the bolded. .... perhaps I'm not understanding you. Women are nurturers by nature, so I can understand the mother being the primary teacher from birth...but where does the father come in in the teaching of the children in a two-parent household? Are you saying raising/teaching the children is soley the mother's responsibility??
> How can I as the mother teach my son to be a man? What's the father's role?
> ...



I always thought that the same-sex parent was the most influential?


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## Laela (Sep 14, 2009)

Then .... how can the mother have more influence on her son, if there's a father is in the household?




AfriPrincess411 said:


> I always thought that the same-sex parent was the most influential?


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## Shimmie (Sep 14, 2009)

Laela said:


> Shim,
> 
> I have to respectfully disagree with you on the bolded. .... perhaps I'm not understanding you. Women are nurturers by nature, so I can understand the mother being the primary _teacher _from birth...but where does the father come in in the teaching of the children in a two-parent household?
> 
> ...


@ the bolded... Oh no, not at all.  It's definitely the responsibility of both mother and father.   

Yet in life, it's the women that children spend more time with, be it "Mommie", Teacher, Day Care, School, grandmothers; even in Sunday School, the woman is the primary gender that children are with and learn from.     The men are low on the scale in these life postions which affect our children, the women abound in presence.     Daddie goes to work and Mommie stays home to care for the children.    From the 'pottie to the classroom, it's a woman leading and instructing the children.

*BTW:*    You're not mis-understood.  It's just hard to communicate in forum text, that's all.


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## Crown (Sep 14, 2009)

Aviah said:


> Thanks to you ladies also, I find this all very interesting myself. ITA that the way each woman wants to be cared for is different, for example, I do not mind getting out of the car alone. But love being pampered in other ways. I too, do not need a man to need me to feel worthy, but like when *he asks me to help him with certain things too*, so I guess it would mean more to a man to let me do the same.
> Keep it coming ladies...
> Its helped me see things differently



Agree!
Painting in the house is his duty!
But one day, I painted a room because he was too busy and asked to me if I can do it for him. I think that I did it better than him, the meticulous way (I would not say this to him). He greatly appreciate my help. But, it is his duty, not mine.


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## Crown (Sep 14, 2009)

momi said:


> ...
> 
> *Titus 2:3-5
> the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things— 4 that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed
> ...





Shimmie said:


> *Although our husbands are not God, they are still God's gift to us* and if they do not feel we need them, they'll look for someone else who does.    Even as women, we want to feel needed by the men we love.  It's special and it's how love is intended to be; to love and to need each other.  Not push each other away with our over independence.  :Rose:



Yes, we are seeking the truth as Christian women.

1Pet.    3.4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. 3.5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: 3.6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.


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## Laela (Sep 14, 2009)

I understand the bolded, Shimmie, I hear you.. 

however... today we have Mr. Moms. 

But more importantly, when God is the head of a household, I believe it's the primary responsibility of the father to teach the children in the way they should go according to the Word. The mother as help-meet, under the direction of the father. So, I disagree that a father's value in instruction carries little weight. 

*Ephesians 6* instructs Fathers on their role in child-rearing and teaching:
Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord. 

This should go beyond just teaching Scripture...his life is the instruction. He leads/teaches by example. He doesn't have to sit a child down and say OK son..you must do this, do that. How he conducts himself at home, in church, outside the home, are all lessons that have a lot of influence and impact on his children's lives. 

While I do believe the principle that it takes a village, society has strayed so far from what's good and Godly, that parents today have to be vigilant of who is spending time with their children and educate themselves on the daycare and the men and women who will be caring for their children while they are at work. Albeit, there are more women than men in daycares and schools, they are there as well.   


Shimmie said:


> @ the bolded... Oh no, not at all.  It's definitely the responsibility of both mother and father.
> 
> *Yet in life, it's the women that children spend more time with*, be it "Mommie", Teacher, Day Care, School, grandmothers; even in Sunday School, the woman is the primary gender that children are with and learn from.     The men are low on the scale in these life postions which affect our children, the women abound in presence.    Daddie goes to work and Mommie stays home to care for the children.   From the 'pottie to the classroom, it's a woman leading and instructing the children.
> 
> *BTW:*


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## Shimmie (Sep 14, 2009)

Laela said:


> I understand the bolded, Shimmie, I hear you..
> 
> however... today we have Mr. Moms.
> 
> ...


 
Excellent word!   Totally agreed!    

Laela, you are truly ministering here,  ..   We indeed have to have 'rule' over those who teach our children outside of our homes.    We literally 'annoint' our children before going to school and in Day Care because we believe in binding those spirits 'that be', from having negative influences over our children.    

*Spirits compete.*    They compete against each other and most definitely against the Spirit of God.   And you can believe that there are spirits out there trying to subdue what we, at home, are teaching our children in Godliness.     We pray against the spirits of their peers as well, for we have no clue what their friends are coming to school and sharing with them and the undo influence that it has over our children.


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## Shimmie (Sep 14, 2009)

Crown said:


> Yes, we are seeking the truth as Christian women.
> 
> 1Pet. 3.4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. 3.5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: 3.6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord:
> 
> *whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement*.


 
These words hit me like a bolt... 

_"...whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and *are not afraid with any amazement. *"_

This just stands out to me as:  _Don't be 'afraid' to surrender our trust in our men..."      _

God already took care of this for us (as women)  in the verses that follow in I Peter 3 ...

* 7In the same way you married men should live considerately with [your wives], with an [c]intelligent recognition [of the marriage relation], honoring the woman as [physically] the weaker, but [realizing that you] are joint heirs of the grace (God's unmerited favor) of life, in order that your prayers may not be hindered and cut off. [Otherwise you cannot pray effectively.] *


8Finally, all [of you] should be of one and the same mind (united in spirit), sympathizing [with one another], loving [each other] as brethren [of one household], compassionate and courteous (tenderhearted and humble). 

*9*Never return evil for evil or insult for insult (scolding, tongue-lashing, berating), but on the contrary blessing [praying for their welfare, happiness, and protection, and truly pitying and loving them]. For know that to this you have been called, that you may yourselves inherit a blessing [from God--that you may obtain a blessing as heirs, bringing welfare and happiness and protection].    
*10*For let him who wants to enjoy life and see good days [good--whether apparent or not] keep his tongue free from evil and his lips from guile (treachery, deceit).

------------
I'm learning a lot in here today...    It really is a wealth of knowledge being shared here by eveyone.   :Rose:


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## Shimmie (Sep 14, 2009)

Crown said:


> Agree!
> Painting in the house is his duty!
> 
> But one day, I painted a room because he was too busy and asked to me if I can do it for him. I think that I did it better than him, the meticulous way *(I would not say this to him).* He greatly appreciate my help. But, it is his duty, not mine.


 
Excellent example of being 'one'.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 14, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> @ the bolded... Oh no, not at all.  It's definitely the responsibility of both mother and father.
> 
> Yet in life, it's the women that children spend more time with, be it "Mommie", Teacher, Day Care, School, grandmothers; even in Sunday School, the woman is the primary gender that children are with and learn from.     The men are low on the scale in these life postions which affect our children, the women abound in presence.     Daddie goes to work and Mommie stays home to care for the children.    From the 'pottie to the classroom, it's a woman leading and instructing the children.
> 
> *BTW:*    You're not mis-understood.  It's just hard to communicate in forum text, that's all.



I know what you mean.  In many societies, the culture and religion are passed down from the mother.  She's the primary teacher who passes on the nation's culture to the children for all the generations.  Even if there are interfaith marriages, the kids usually follow the faith of the mother.  I get this one lol!


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## Aviah (Sep 15, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> I agree with your entire post; bear in mind, that it's not about opening doors as a 'robot', he does so because he loves her even with the 'little things'. It may not 'seem' like much, but it _speaks_ _volumes_ about what a man truly feels about the woman in his life. :Rose:


 
This is SO true. SO would only need to see me hold my foot (which may hurt from wearing heels) and he would rub it for me. Those little things I love because, though the pain would go away alone if he wasn't there, its a very nice gesture. Not to mention relaxing!


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## Laela (Sep 15, 2009)

I love foot rubs!   esp when we're chilling on the couch, watching a movie...


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## aribell (Sep 15, 2009)

What a nice conversation.



GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> It's social conditioning. *We're all just a minute out of a veil and chadoor covering up everything*.


 
I definitely feel this sometimes.



dicapr said:


> I was listening to a pastor on the radio the other day and he was saying that men do not understand how to have the "protector" role anymore with the lack of fathers in the home. They rely on sterotypes rather than seeing how they can truly be the protector of their wives or girlfriends.


 
Gender roles are tricky things, given that they are Scriptural, societal, and personal, and all those factors come together and it gets difficult to separate it all out, and so we rely on those easily identifiable things, often surface-level, to help us feel that were acting in our roles.  But God's call to men and women goes beyond that.  

I think a huge part of masculinity is being willing to take responsibility for the other person and the relationship as a whole, and for men, being willing to sacrifice himself for the good of his wife (as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her).  And Christ's sacrificial love means a man personally investing in his wife's spiritual growth, encouraging her emotionally, making sure her physical needs are taken care of, etc.  But it takes a _lot _of spiritual and emotional maturity and understanding to be able to do those things, so I think that sometimes we settle for the easier things like who makes dinner, takes out the trash, etc.


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## Aviah (Sep 15, 2009)

^ Ain't it the truth


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## Laela (Sep 16, 2009)

My my my, aint that the truth.. 

Well said...





nicola.kirwan said:


> Gender roles are tricky things, given that they are Scriptural, societal, and personal, and all those factors come together and it gets difficult to separate it all out, and so we rely on those easily identifiable things, often surface-level, to help us feel that were acting in our roles.  *But God's call to men and women goes beyond that. *
> 
> I think a huge part of masculinity is being willing to take responsibility for the other person and the relationship as a whole, and for men, being willing to sacrifice himself for the good of his wife (as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her).  And Christ's sacrificial love means a man personally investing in his wife's spiritual growth, encouraging her emotionally, making sure her physical needs are taken care of, etc.  *But it takes a lot of spiritual and emotional maturity and understanding to be able to do those things, so I think that sometimes we settle for the easier things like who makes dinner, takes out the trash, etc*.


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## Laela (Sep 16, 2009)

WHY DID MY POST ANSWERING MOMI GET DELETED????? I'm the only person censored in this thread. I don't understand that.


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## Laela (Sep 16, 2009)

God bless you wonderful ladies in this _ForHim_...  ...it'll be a while before I post here; I feel the need to pray about this, as it is very unsettling to my spirit. I will always be a salty saint for the Most High God, to please him and him alone. 

Amen and God bless,

*Leviticus 2:13 *
_And every offering of your grain offering you shall season with salt; you shall not allow the salt of the covenant of your God to be lacking from your grain offering. With all your offerings you shall offer salt. _


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## momi (Sep 16, 2009)

Laela said:


> WHY DID MY POST ANSWERING MOMI GET DELETED????? I'm the only person censored in this thread. I don't understand that.


 
Censored?  What in the world?


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## momi (Sep 16, 2009)

Laela said:


> God bless you wonderful ladies in this _ForHim_...  ...it'll be a while before I post here; I feel the need to pray about this, as it is very unsettling to my spirit. I will always be a salty saint for the Most High God, to please him and him alone.
> 
> Amen and God bless,
> 
> ...


 
I respect your decision - but please come back soon.  I have truly benefited from your insight and ability to speak the truth in love.


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## aribell (Sep 17, 2009)

Laela said:


> God bless you wonderful ladies in this _ForHim_...  ...it'll be a while before I post here; I feel the need to pray about this, as it is very unsettling to my spirit. I will always be a salty saint for the Most High God, to please him and him alone.
> 
> Amen and God bless,
> 
> ...


 
Laela, you're very much appreciated here. 

___

Aviah, regarding the op, I was just listening on the radio to a story about women who have gotten into the whole Fantasy Football world, and the reporter (male) highlighted the fact that a lot of husbands whose wives have gotten into it are really proud and brag to their buddies about the fact that their wife is into it too, saying it was "kinda hot."  

My aunt married a former NFL player and much of their bonding happens through their mutual love of sports and exercise, being active, etc.  They have a lovely family and a lovely marriage.

Very good friend of mine recently married her best friend, and so much of their common interests include video games and techno-geek kinda stuff.  They had a beautiful courtship and are pretty happy together.

And I definitely had a male friend of mine talk about how "awesome" it was that I played soccer for 10 years and am hoping to do a triathalon at some point.

All that to say that women do not have to be confined to any particular type of "existence" to be viewed as beautiful, desirable, attractive to men.  It just depends on the particular man.  Lots of men view women who like to play around, do sports, play video games, etc.  They see it as something they can share with her.  Others might not, but it doesn't have much to do with any kind of theological point.  It's personal preference.

And personally, I love my hair and makeup and clothes, but I'd go crazy if I felt I couldn't play sports, do outdoorsy things, ride rollercoasters, shoot pool, etc. all for the sake of being feminine.  It's not about that.  Women should feel free to live and experience life and God's creation and all that just as well as men.


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## SND411 (Sep 17, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> What a nice conversation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The thing is people have always corrupted Scripture to suite meaningless tradition and culture.


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## Aviah (Sep 17, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> Laela, you're very much appreciated here.
> 
> ___
> 
> ...



Agreed. I love heels as much as wrestling. I plan to give up neither


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## mswoman (Sep 17, 2009)

Aviah,
   You'll have to mark this post and check back with us in 5 years to let us know if you still feel the same...


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