# Tithing



## Southernbella. (Mar 29, 2007)

I started a new thread. I know I said I would pm you, N&W, but I'll write it here so others can contribute and correct me if I'm wrong. 

First, I think we have to understand what the tithe actually looked like when practiced under the Law.

There were 4 different tithes. 

1) The first was called the Levitical tithe. This was give to the _servants_ of the Levitical priests to support them. They were called Levites, and the tithe was for the purpose of supporting them, because they had no inheritance like other tribes of the land.

Numb. 18:21-24

21 "I give to the Levites all the tithes in Israel as their inheritance in return for the work they do while serving at the Tent of Meeting. 22 From now on the Israelites must not go near the Tent of Meeting, or they will bear the consequences of their sin and will die. 23 It is the Levites who are to do the work at the Tent of Meeting and bear the responsibility for offenses against it. This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. They will receive no inheritance among the Israelites. 24 Instead, I give to the Levites as their inheritance the tithes that the Israelites present as an offering to the LORD. That is why I said concerning them: 'They will have no inheritance among the Israelites.' "

Neh. 10:37

37 "Moreover, we will bring to the storerooms of the house of our God, to the priests, the first of our ground meal, of our grain offerings, of the fruit of all our trees and of our new wine and oil. And we will bring a tithe of our crops to the Levites, for it is the Levites who collect the tithes in all the towns where we work.

The Levites then gave 1/10 of the tithes to the priests. In today's equivalent, 1% actually went to the storehouse.

Numbers 18:25-28

25 The LORD said to Moses, 26 "Speak to the Levites and say to them: 'When you receive from the Israelites the tithe I give you as your inheritance, you must present a tenth of that tithe as the LORD's offering. 27 Your offering will be reckoned to you as grain from the threshing floor or juice from the winepress. 28 In this way you also will present an offering to the LORD from all the tithes you receive from the Israelites. From these tithes you must give the LORD's portion to Aaron the priest.

2) The second tithe was the feast tithe, which worshippers were to eat during the yearly festivals

Deut. 12:1-19
22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always. 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice.

3) The third was the poor tithe, which was used to feed the poor of Israel (who didn't tithe. Again, only those who owned and harvested land or animals tithed off of the increase God gave them on that land/herds)

*Deuteronomy 14:28-29*
28 At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year's produce and store it in your towns, 29 so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.

4) It appears that the ruler of the land also took a tenth for himself, and this is considered a fourth tithe by some

Samuel 8:11-17

11 He said, "This is what the king who will reign over you will do: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16 Your menservants and maidservants and the best of your cattle and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves.


Again, notice that the tithe was always food/animals. Even though there was a money system, food was the only acceptable tithe.

Also important, the tithe was only off of what God increased. Meaning, what God increased by His hand, not what man could produce.

1 Corinthians 3:7

7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase

Deuteronomy 14:22 

22 â€œYou shall truly tithe all the increase of your grain that the field produces year by year.

I think people get confused about what the "increase" is. Increase is not your living wage.

People often mention Abraham, who voluntarily tithed before Mosaic Law was introduced. He tithed from the spoils of war, which wouldn't have even been an acceptable tithe to God under the law, so this doesn't prove anything one way or the other. Jacob also gave a tenth voluntarily, but as in the case of Abraham, the Bible never mention them tithing beyond those two instances, and it certainly wasn't commanded to them by God.

*Deuteronomy 14:22-23*


Tithes 
22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 
23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always.


*2 Chronicles 31:5-6*


5 As soon as the order went out, the Israelites generously gave the firstfruits of their grain, new wine, oil and honey and all that the fields produced. They brought a great amount, a tithe of everything. 
6 The men of Israel and Judah who lived in the towns of Judah also brought a tithe of their herds and flocks and a tithe of the holy things dedicated to the LORD their God, and they piled them in heaps.

So, if we are under the law of tithing today, why doesn't our tithe look like this? Why does the church only teach one of the four tithes, and incorrectly? If we did practice it biblically, those of us who produce food (farmers and herders) would tithe to the servants of the priests, who would then give 1% to the priests. THe poor and widows would be able to come and partake of these tithes, and the rest of us would enjoy them at festivals. Instead, everyone gives 10% to the church in the form of money.


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## Southernbella. (Mar 29, 2007)

People use Malachi 3:8 to say that we are supposed to tithe, but in context, God was speaking to the priests of Israel because they were using the tithe incorrectly. They were being greedy.

Malachi 3:8-12

8 "Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me. 
"But you ask, 'How do we rob you?' 
"In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curseâ€”the whole nation of youâ€”because you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it. 11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not cast their fruit," says the LORD Almighty. 12 "Then all the nations will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land," says the LORD Almighty. 

This was all part of the Old Covenant God had with the Isrealites. Since there are no more Levitical priests, the tithe cannot legally be collected anymore. Hebrews tells us that the Old Covenant is no longer, because there is a better system in place (the New Covenant).

Hebrews 7:12-19

12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. 13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar. 
14 For _it is_ evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood.[a] 15 And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest 16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life. 17 For He testifies:[b]


_â€œ You_ _are_ _a priest forever_
_According to the order of Melchizedek.â€_[c]


18 _For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand,_ _there is the_bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

Hebrews 8:13

13 _In that He says,_ _â€œA new_ _covenant,_ _â€_ _He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away._

People also quote Jesus when he spoke to the Pharisees about tithe, but it's important to note that the Pharisees were still under the _Old Covenant. _

_Matthew 23:23_

_23 â€œWoe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
_
The New Covenant didn't begin until Jesus died. 

Once the New Covenant went into affect, tithing is not commanded to believers. Believers are to practice free-will giving.

2 Corinthians 9:7

7 _So let_ each one _give_ as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver.


This type of giving is a direct contradiction with tithing, because tithing is commaned (compelled).

All this to say: If you feel in your heart that you should give 10%, then give it and God will be pleased! But you should know the truth, and that is that the tithe as practiced today is taught in error, not legal, and based on tradition. We are no longer under the Old Covenant, because if we were, we'd have to do a whole lot more than tithe! Jesus fulfilled the law, and now we are under a new, and better covenant.

I'll be back with more!


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## Beauty4Ashes (Mar 29, 2007)

Hey Lauren,

At my church people tithe in various forms.  Some people tithe their time, services, or goods.  I think money is emphasized today b/c that is the form of barter.  It's just easier to give money.  I agree with you though; if I were a farmer I would definetly bring the first fruits of my crops.

Just my .02 cents

ETA: I just read your posts in another thread, I do believe that we as Christians should still tithe--Jesus didn't come to change the laws but to fulfill them. -JMHO


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## Southernbella. (Mar 29, 2007)

shaffawn said:
			
		

> Hey Lauren,
> 
> At my church people tithe in various forms. Some people tithe their time, services, or goods. I think money is emphasized today b/c that is the form of barter. It's just easier to give money. I agree with you though; if I were a farmer I would definetly bring the first fruits of my crops.
> 
> ...


'

I respect what you're saying. I think the problem with saying that Christians are under law to tithe is that we are essentially then saying that we're still under the Old Covenant. If that's true, then there are a whole host of other rituals, practices, and laws we should be keeping. Why are we exempt from the other laws?

As for money being emphasized today...I don't know the reason. There are still farmers and herders, and money exists today in the same way it did then. The purpose of the tithe then was to support/feed the Levites, who didn't have their own inheritance. What is the purpose today? There is no temple system, so there aren't any storehouses to bring the tithes to. There are no Levitical priests, so who can legally collect it?


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## CaramelMiSS (Mar 29, 2007)

lauren450 said:
			
		

> '
> 
> I respect what you're saying. I think the problem with saying that Christians are under law to tithe is that we are essentially then saying that we're still under the Old Covenant. If that's true, then there are a whole host of other rituals, practices, and laws we should be keeping. Why are we exempt from the other laws?
> 
> As for money being emphasized today...I don't know the reason. There are still farmers and herders, and money exists today in the same way it did then. The purpose of the tithe then was to support/feed the Levites, who didn't have their own inheritance. What is the purpose today? There is no temple system, so there aren't any storehouses to bring the tithes to. *There are no Levitical priests, so who can legally collect it?*


 
Good question!  I would think the poor, the down-trodded, and the less forunate


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## Beauty4Ashes (Mar 29, 2007)

ok, I just finished reading your entire post, you have given me homework for tonight...Thanks  

Just a thought, if we didn't pay tithes/offerings how would the "physical" church function? (pay light bills, give to poor, etc) I know you don't believe that we "have" to go to church, but for those times that you do, how do you propose the church pay their bills?

I'm not going to try and pretend that I am knowledgable in this subject.  I've never really studied the scriptures for myself on this topic; I'll be back tonight with what I've discovered and even then it'll just be the "milk" of the word.  I would love to hear thoughts on this from other ladies...


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## Southernbella. (Mar 29, 2007)

CaramelMiSS said:
			
		

> Good question! I would think the poor, the down-trodded, and the less forunate


 
That makes sense. But then, they'd probably be taxed on it. 

I found this chart that breaks down scriptures dealing with the Old Covenant vs. The New Covenant.

http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/OldVsNewCovenant.html

I agree fully that Jesus came to fulfill the law, but I think that scripture is open to interpretation. I believe fulfill means complete. It doesn't mean the Old Law never existed, or that it means nothing to us, but it means that Jesus completed them that we aren't bound to them anymore. I guess that is what is meant by the spirit of the law vs. letter of the law. Instead of animal sacrifices, we make ourselves a sacrifice to the Lord. Instead of having to go to the temple to meet God, we ARE the temple and the Holy Spirit dwells in us. It's awesome when you really think about it!

Also, since the tithe was for those who had no inheritance, that rules us out, because all believers have an eternal inheritance!


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## Southernbella. (Mar 29, 2007)

shaffawn said:
			
		

> ok, I just finished reading your entire post, you have given me homework for tonight...Thanks
> 
> Just a thought, if we didn't pay tithes/offerings how would the "physical" church function? (pay light bills, give to poor, etc) I know you don't believe that we "have" to go to church, but for those times that you do, how do you propose the church pay their bills?
> 
> I'm not going to try and pretend that I am knowledgable in this subject. I've never really studied the scriptures for myself on this topic; I'll be back tonight with what I've discovered and even then it'll just be the "milk" of the word. I would love to hear thoughts on this from other ladies...


 
You know, I had never studied it for myself either. I think it's such a longstanding tradition that most people accept it for what it is. I'm not against people tithing if that's what they want to do. I'm against incorrect teaching. When I first started studying it, I rejected pretty much everything. It took a long time for me to even understand what I was reading. I had never heard any of the scriptures about tithing read in church, with the exception of Malachi 3:8. The thing is, our pastors always tell us to study for ourselves, but I still went by what I heard.

As for your question about the church, I don't know. I do think we're supposed to assemble for worship. I just don't know if the church system as we know it is correct. 

I've read a few essays about the function of the modern day church, and some believe that we are to do work (give to the poor, minister, etc) on our own. We're not supposed to wait on the church. If everyone did these things as they are supposed to, then the church wouldn't be burdened, and could instead simply be an assembly for worship and fellowship. I need to study some more on that, but I think it's an interesting view. If that happened, there wouldn't be a need for monetary support. Even when you look the New Testament, Paul would go and speak to whole cities, not several different churches within a city.


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## CaramelMiSS (Mar 29, 2007)

lauren450 said:
			
		

> *That makes sense. But then, they'd probably be taxed on it. *
> 
> I found this chart that breaks down scriptures dealing with the Old Covenant vs. The New Covenant.
> 
> ...


 
I don't think they would tax those that gave, I give to nonprofits all the time and I don't get taxed in fact I only give to the detroit rescue mission and COTS.  I also think when you donate to them you can use it as a tax write off, but i don't believe in doing that because it just defeats the whole purpose of giving.  ANother thing they don't tax churches so why should they tax giving to the poor that is almost like welfare, I think.


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## alexstin (Mar 29, 2007)

I tithe, always have and always will  If we are under "a new and better covenant" then why not seek to give more? Why is it always the reverse?   Thank God we're not under law anymore but you know what? Written law is always superceded by spiritual law. God always intended for us to live by the law in our hearts. Written law only steers us in the right direction.


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## Southernbella. (Mar 29, 2007)

alexstin said:
			
		

> I tithe, always have and always will If we are under "a new and better covenant" then why not seek to give more? Why is it always the reverse? Thank God we're not under law anymore but you know what? Written law is always superceded by spiritual law. God always intended for us to live by the law in our hearts. Written law only steers us in the right direction.


 
Who says givers always give less than 10%?  The law of tithe is what binds you to only 10%. God may lead us to give more or less, but the point is, you are FREE to do so. It's not about giving less, IMO, it's about knowing the truth and operating under God's grace, not man's mandates. I do agree with you about written vs. spirit. And like I said, if you want to give 10%, that's great! But we should all seek the truth.


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## Southernbella. (Mar 29, 2007)

CaramelMiSS said:
			
		

> I don't think they would tax those that gave, I give to nonprofits all the time and I don't get taxed in fact I only give to the detroit rescue mission and COTS. I also think when you donate to them you can use it as a tax write off, but i don't believe in doing that because it just defeats the whole purpose of giving. ANother thing they don't tax churches so why should they tax giving to the poor that is almost like welfare, I think.


 
Oh, I must have misunderstood your post. I was talking about if the poor were able to receive the tithes directly, like in the Bible, our government would probably tax them on it since it's in the form of money now.


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## alexstin (Mar 29, 2007)

lauren450 said:
			
		

> Who says givers always give less than 10%?  The law of tithe is what binds you to only 10%. God may lead us to give more or less, but the point is, you are FREE to do so. It's not about giving less, IMO, it's about knowing the truth and operating under God's grace, not man's mandates. I do agree with you about written vs. spirit. And like I said, if you want to give 10%, that's great! But we should all seek the truth.



Oh I wasn't saying that givers _always _give less. I just know that's the mindset of some.


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## Southernbella. (Mar 30, 2007)

alexstin said:
			
		

> Oh I wasn't saying that givers _always _give less. I just know that's the mindset of some.


 
Ok, gotcha! You're right, I have heard that before.


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## StrawberryQueen (Mar 30, 2007)

Thanks for the Lauren!


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## bgsix (Apr 4, 2007)

Thanks for the breakdown.


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## StrawberryQueen (Apr 16, 2007)

An email I recieved on tithing:


> Give From The Heart
> 
> In the book of Malachi, God called the people back to the law He
> established 800 years earlier with Moses.  God spoke of the necessity
> ...


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## BlkOnyx488 (Apr 16, 2007)

BUMP BUMP
I 



			
				lauren450 said:
			
		

> That makes sense. But then, they'd probably be taxed on it.
> 
> I found this chart that breaks down scriptures dealing with the Old Covenant vs. The New Covenant.
> 
> ...


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## Southernbella. (Jan 26, 2008)

bump!


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## missty1029 (Jan 26, 2008)

Ok so I have some questions.  I just started back into the church and I often stayed awayvbecause of the money issue.

Know what I dont understand about tithing?  If someone does it they have that choice.  But people who dont are cast out and said to be disobedient. Why? The bible and everything in it is interpretation.  No one may want to hear that but unless you were there and can read the original language the bible was written in, its interpretation.  There is nothing wrong with that.  And I am may get blasted for saying this. But when I got to church and my pastor singles out all the people who have the exact amount he asks for or always talks about how you have to catch up and if you dont pay you dont need to be there, then that is messed up.  I know I shoudl have faith in God but when lights get cut off and car being repossessed its hard to see a pastor pulling up in him BMW in his three peice suits of whatever church you may go to.  

From all the differnet quotes I read on tithing it seems to stress the importance of giving a portion of what you have.  But it also seems like that has lost its focus because it must be 10% of your salary.  

There are people of different faith who dont tithe and are  blessed and there are people who tithe and still face hardships.

What happened to just being a good person?  What happened to giving what you can with what you have?  

I know this question of tithing runs a lot of people out of the church and it ruins a lot of peoples faith.  To me thats the really issue and I dont think thats what Gods plan is.  I dont think in any way God has it if you dont give your 10% your not as good as the next.  

But Im just someone who believes God loves me, I was born in his image and he has great things for me.  I will always give back because that is in my heart on being a good person.  But I think its messed up when churches, pastors and whoever else tries to make me feel like a bad person because I dont give what is an interpretation of the bible to be 10% of my salary.


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## Southernbella. (Jan 26, 2008)

missty1029 said:


> Ok so I have some questions. I just started back into the church and I often stayed awayvbecause of the money issue.
> 
> Know what I dont understand about tithing? If someone does it they have that choice. But people who dont are cast out and said to be disobedient. Why? The bible and everything in it is interpretation. No one may want to hear that but unless you were there and can read the original language the bible was written in, its interpretation. There is nothing wrong with that. And I am may get blasted for saying this. But when I got to church and my pastor singles out all the people who have the exact amount he asks for or always talks about how you have to catch up and if you dont pay you dont need to be there, then that is messed up. I know I shoudl have faith in God but when lights get cut off and car being repossessed its hard to see a pastor pulling up in him BMW in his three peice suits of whatever church you may go to.
> 
> ...


 
I agree with the bolded. I can hear your heart on this, and this is why I am so frustrated about the false teaching going forth.

All I can say to you is to listen to what God is telling you about giving...

*2 Corinthians 9:6-15*
* 6Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. 9As it is written: 
   "He has scattered abroad his gifts to the poor; 
      his righteousness endures forever."[a] 10Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness. 11You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God.* 
* 12This service that you perform is not only supplying the needs of God's people but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanks to God. 13Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, men will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else. 14And in their prayers for you their hearts will go out to you, because of the surpassing grace God has given you. 15Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift!*


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## Dove56 (Jan 27, 2008)

Great post! I've done extensive research about tithing and based on scripture there are no biblical mandates to tithe after Jesus death which ushered in the New Covenant.  We are advised to give however. Not tithing does not exempt us from giving. 2 Corinthians 9:

Sowing Generously 
 6Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. 9As it is written: 
   "He has scattered abroad his gifts to the poor; 
      his righteousness endures forever."[a] 10Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness. 11You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God. 

We don't HAVE to give but we SHOULD give.  I'm not sure about anyone else, but God has "blessed" me when I couldn't afford to give $. I think waking up with great health everyday is a blessing, and without it $ just isn't the same.  Why do we as Christians only (general speaking) consider ourselves "blessed" if it's monetary?

Also, I think people think they can "pay God off".  They believe they can live like the devil, in complete disobedience to scripture then "tithe" and everything is okay with God (I've heard people talk like this).  God is more concerned with obdience than sacrifice 1 Samuel 15:22.


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## Mahalialee4 (Jan 27, 2008)

QUOTE=shaffawn;2058034]ok, I just finished reading your entire post, you have given me homework for tonight...Thanks  

Just a thought, if we didn't pay tithes/offerings how would the "physical" church function? (pay light bills, give to poor, etc) I know you don't believe that we "have" to go to church, but for those times that you do, how do you propose the church pay their bills? ANSWER:

 ((((The Scriptures say: "If a man does not want to WORK, neither let him EAT! First, Pastors need to WORK.  Preaching the good news was something to be done by all. The role of the apostles, prophets, evangelists, teachers was for a purpose. As stated in Ephesians: it is clear who is supposed to do the work of the Ministry! The Church has it backwards!!!!Please tell me that since Jesus died and rose that it is reasonable  that the Pastors and teachers have NOT managed to train the church persons to be ministers of the gospel and DESPITE ALL the tithes that have been collected and we operate instead under a feudal,  paternal, godfather, form of godly devotion that is pure tradition  and are not obeying God's command about preaching the gospel?  We shuffle it off on the Pastors and Evangelists "to do the job for us". I believe that is why some pay the tithe without caring that it is unscripturally exacted? To avoid the responsibility that has been laid on usby the head of the Church, Jesus Christ himself! Are we individually going to have to answer to God for being disobedient about preaching the gospel and farming the work out to paid hirelings!..... 
Who pays the bills in the church?...offerings would take care of this and the money that pastors are spending on lavish palaces rivaling competing with the Catholic system, the mansions, expensive autos, jewellry and designer clothing would go along way to paying light bills on "church buildings" for years to come. Instead of being content to shepherd what they can realistically care for, they want to be big name preachers and pastors over churches that hold thousands....not for the glory of God but for their own egos and due to what Matthew stated: When telling the people the truth about the Scribes and Pharisees, Chapter 23: 4-38, Jesus laid it bare and He exposed the root of their traditions
Jesus preached the gospel, travelled etc etc. Matthew 4: 23,24,25 and he did not have to get a tithe! a private jet or an extremely expensive auto and sink the excess in to numerous "businesses" began and financed by money he took from the CHURCH  still begging and trying to justify taking more based on a false prosperity doctrine. Yes. False. Are they greater than Jesus? Read verse 28 and 29!!!)))  According to the Bible: WE ARE THE CHURCH. The CHURCH is not a building!!! The Church is the sanctified body of Christ. Hebrews 12:22-24. The only reason for membership at a building called a "church" is for the Pastor to be able to claim tax exemption with Caesar, to avoid paying Caesar on the money they are taking in from those who attend and give him unaccountable amounts of money. This "membership role" is their pass with the governments of the land. Otherwise, these men would have to pay taxes! They would not be able to have the lavish lifestyles without your cooperation.
We need to know the truth about this. That pastors and the people are both getting something out of this unscriptural arrangement. But is God pleased? And Caesar...He is on to it and Because  these pastors are not paying Caesar's things to Caeser, just taking advantage of a legal loophole! That could change quickly, drastically and painfully, cause it is MAN'S LEGAL LOOPHOLE!)))))end my answer

I'm not going to try and pretend that I am knowledgable in this subject.  I've never really studied the scriptures for myself on this topic; I'll be back tonight with what I've discovered and even then it'll just be the "milk" of the word.  I would love to hear thoughts on this from other ladies...[/QUOTE]


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## TrustMeLove (Jan 27, 2008)

God Is So Good and His Mercy Endureth Forever.


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## Highly Favored8 (Jan 27, 2008)

The is BIBLE means 
B-Basic
I- Instructions
B-Before
L-Leaving 
E-Earth

I feel that tithing is a big part of expanding God's Kingdom! A person must be careful where they tithe they must tithe into good ground. 
I claim Malachi 3:10 every day, and I tell it what has been going on in my life that YES God does not lie and by me tithing and giving to his work and his kingdom, the Lord will continue to Bless me! I love tithing to God's work and being in Convenat Realtionship with God and not only that, the church where I attened when we bring in our first fruits we are sowing into good ground.

Also, not only tithes just does not pay for the bills of the church. In my church it goes into the community to feed the homeless and the needy.
I LOVE the Lord and I will tithe 10% or 15% to advance his kingdom.


last relaxer 12-19-07 Affrim
next relaxer 3-25-08 erplexed
Current APL length
I am Claiming BSL by 12-31-08


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## missty1029 (Jan 27, 2008)

Veejee said:


> Great post! I've done extensive research about tithing and based on scripture there are no biblical mandates to tithe after Jesus death which ushered in the New Covenant. We are advised to give however. Not tithing does not exempt us from giving. 2 Corinthians 9:
> 
> Sowing Generously
> 6Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. 9As it is written:
> ...


 
Thank you!!! I didnt start going to church until the last few years and I was blessed by so many things before stepping in anyones church!!!!! 

And I dont say any of this to dispute tithing. I just dont understand why its 10% of you monetary salary. If someone can explain that I would appreciate the lesson.


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## Highly Favored8 (Jan 27, 2008)

missty1029 said:


> Thank you!!! I didnt start going to church until the last few years and I was blessed by so many things before stepping in anyones church!!!!!
> 
> And I dont say any of this to dispute tithing. I just dont understand why its 10% of you monetary salary. If someone can explain that I would appreciate the lesson.


 
Hi,

At our church we tithe b/c we need to pay to keep the church lights, water, basic neccessites. Also, in my church we have homeless and the poor in our community where we take them in and feed them give them gifts etc...  I give my 10% plus b/c I am in a covenat realtionship with God and I want to advance his Kingdom. I just wish I started tithing sooner!

Last relaxer 12-19-07
Next Relaxer 3-25-08
Current APL 
I am claming BSL 12-31-08


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## Dove56 (Jan 27, 2008)

missty1029 said:


> Thank you!!! I didnt start going to church until the last few years and I was blessed by so many things before stepping in anyones church!!!!!
> 
> And I dont say any of this to dispute tithing. I just dont understand why its 10% of you monetary salary. If someone can explain that I would appreciate the lesson.




It's sad but it $ is the only  thing the pastor can spend.  I really believe if we gave "tithes" in the form of fruits and grains preachers wouldn't stress it so much because you can't buy plain tickets with fruit and grains!

Bill Gates is the richest man in the world and he is not a believer.  There are sooo many wealthy people that don't even know enough about the Lord to acknowledge the fact that their blessings come from Him.

God is not a man, and we can not BUY His favor or His blessings.  He said he rains on the just and the unjust.  We should give to the Lord because we love Him and WE get to partner with Him in order to futher the gospel.  We shouldn't give thinking we are going to get 100 Fold.


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## Southernbella. (Jan 28, 2008)

missty1029 said:


> Thank you!!! I didnt start going to church until the last few years and I was blessed by so many things before stepping in anyones church!!!!!
> 
> And I dont say any of this to dispute tithing. I just dont understand why its 10% of you monetary salary. If someone can explain that I would appreciate the lesson.


 
I don't have an answer to that one. I'm not sure when it changed over from livestock and crops to strictly money, especially since God did not accept a monetary tithe.

I think it's more about tradition than anything. If churches taught freewill giving as instructed in the New Testament...I'm not sure what would happen, but it would probably be harder for them to set a budget and figure out their expenditures. It's probably easier to just stick with 10% of your monetary earnings.


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## SweetlyBlessed (Jan 28, 2008)

Tithing 10% was the amount God commanded his ppl to give to as a sacrifice.  I'll come back with some scriptures in a bit!


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## Southernbella. (Jan 28, 2008)

SweetlyBlessed said:


> Tithing 10% was the amount God commanded his ppl to give to as a sacrifice. I'll come back with some scriptures in a bit!


 
Thanks! God did command this when tithing was a law. Do you believe Christians are under the same law, or do you belive what the New Testament says about freewill giving?


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## SweetlyBlessed (Jan 28, 2008)

Also..."tithe" = tenth.  It helps to have some type of historical correspondence with the scriptures so that you know the meaning of Hebrew words/terms and the context of which these scriptures are written and spoken.

Lev 27:30-32
Deut 12:1-6
Luke 11:42; 18:2

Maybe I'm just gullible, but why when it comes to money, people need to have it broken down and flipped upside down to have an exact interpretation of what to do with it when it comes to giving it up to the church?  So what if you don't know what that pastor or church is doing with it!  You follow God's command(s) and once it's out of your hands, it's not about you anymore; God will deal with it, if it's not used right.  You give a homeless person some money on the street but you don't know if they are going to drink it up or really use it.  You send money to charitable foundations but you don't really know if those children starving over in a 3rd world country actually getting it; you see the same 5 on the commercials for several years.  God said give it...GIVE IT.  I rather give and be obedient with only 10% or more of my income of which God blessed me to get in the first place then to spend it on something I don't need or will waste.


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## SweetlyBlessed (Jan 28, 2008)

lauren450 said:


> Thanks! God did command this when tithing was a law. Do you believe Christians are under the same law, or do you belive what the New Testament says about freewill giving?


 
Hey there lauren450!

That to me applies to giving sparingly and bountifully.  I'd give freely if I was you!   But seriously, some laws God says that they apply to ancestors and their children's children; I'm part of that group.  It really takes the guidance of the Holy Spirit for interpretation.  But honestly, do you think all of God's laws should fall by the way-side just because the books of the bible are separated from Old Testament to New Testament?  Such a confusing thing, I KNOW, but I rather be safe then sorry and following from the old as much as possible!  I'm a cheerful giver.  

The Holy Spirit says, "Have I not promised that greater is the very least in My kingdom than the greatest of all the Old Testament prophets who walked the earth in My time. If those words are true (and they ARE written), then they are for you even in this day."

Everyone wants a blessing but not everyone wants to sacrifice.


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## Southernbella. (Jan 28, 2008)

SweetlyBlessed said:


> Hey there lauren450!
> 
> That to me applies to giving sparingly and bountifully. I'd give freely if I was you!  But seriously, some laws God says that they apply to ancestors and their children's children; I'm part of that group. It really takes the guidance of the Holy Spirit for interpretation. But honestly, do you think all of God's laws should fall by the way-side just because the books of the bible are separated from Old Testament to New Testament? Such a confusing thing, I KNOW, but I rather be safe then sorry and following from the old as much as possible! I'm a cheerful giver.
> 
> ...


 
Hey! No, I don't think all of the laws are obsolete...after all, we still abide by a lot of the moral laws like the Ten Commandments. I think we just have to be careful when dealing with the Old Covenant. God sent His son to die for us, and he fulfilled the law. He did away with the Old Cevenant, and we are now under a New and better one. We have to be careful not to place ourselves under that old law. If we say we still obey the law of the tithe, then don't we have to also obey the laws of animal sacrifice? What we wear? What we eat?

Thing is, the principle of giving is very much alive today! We are instructed to give cheerfully, what God has purposed in our hearts. Whether that's 10%, 20%, or 5%, each person has the freedom, through Christ, to give. We don't want to be legalistic, especially when it comes to the less fortunate, since they received one of the tithes directly when it was law.


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## SweetlyBlessed (Jan 28, 2008)

I wish the poor did recieve what we give. It would make my heart swell and we'd be a real community, helping each other out. 

But previously...no animal sacrifice because that changed when He allowed us to eat clean animals (previously it was stated that we were giving plants and fruits to eat). And not to mention Jesus was the LAST sacrifice. I'm not harping on that example of yours specifically but just for my POV on that because I did a long reference study on it a while back.  The other 3 types of tithes do not apply to us.  Back then everyone had animals, it was their form of living so they gave what they had.  But Jesus was the last sacrifice.  I'd be too squimish to be slicing animals unless it's chicken breast for my salad .   

But I understand what you're saying! That's why we just all need to get in the Word and as for decernment in what we read and pray that we are listening to the spirit and not ourselves and man.

But good thread though! I know many got educated and it provoked them to look deeper into this.

Be Blessed!


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## Southernbella. (Jan 28, 2008)

SweetlyBlessed said:


> I wish the poor did recieve what we give. It would make my heart swell and we'd be a real community, helping each other out.
> 
> But previously...no animal sacrifice because that changed when He allowed us to eat clean animals (previously it was stated that we were giving plants and fruits to eat). And not to mention Jesus was the LAST sacrifice. I'm not harping on that example of yours specifically but just for my POV on that because I did a long reference study on it a while back. The other 3 types of tithes do not apply to us. Back then everyone had animals, it was their form of living so they gave what they had. But Jesus was the last sacrifice. I'd be too squimish to be slicing animals unless it's chicken breast for my salad .
> 
> ...


 
You be blessed as well! I love discussions like these, because I'm always forced to get into my Bible and study even more. I've learned a lot from you ladies!


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## christie_love (Jan 28, 2008)

Hi Ladies, 

I haven't been to LHCF for a while, then I ran upon this thread and I just had to chime in.

I think someone already clarified this, but the word tithe means a "tenth".So, that's where the 10% comes from. All the scriptures used are great for clarifying the old and new testament laws and fullfillments; but there is one that wan't listed that I think is important for proving the case for tithing outside of the Old Testament laws. Matthew 22:15-22

15 Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words. 
16 They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. "Teacher," they said, "we know you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren't swayed by men, because you pay no attention to who they are. 
17 Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?" 
18 But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, "You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? 
19 Show me the coin used for paying the tax." They brought him a denarius, 20 and he asked them, "Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?" 
21 "Caesar's," they replied. Then he said to them, *"Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." *
22 When they heard this, they were amazed. So they left him and went away.

Now a days Uncle Sam (Caesar) takes what's his before we even see it. And if Uncle Sam says we owe more than what he took over the year; we are quick to have it to him by April 15. That's the law, we abide, and don't expect anything in return. But when it comes to giving to God what is His ( and it's all His by the way) we question, and research why, and what is the correct amount.
We should be freewill "cheerful" givers, but if you're not cheerful about it, keep it. God's definetly not begging you for it. I believe in God providing an increase on my giving; but I can't say what the incease will be. I believe my continued existance is a blessing, and everything I have on top of that is a blessing, my job, my health, my family, my belief in knowing Him, and that He will provide. There has been times that I haven't been consistant with my giving, and I felt terrible. It was my beliefs in God's promise that convicted me to feel remorsful. Because I spent my money on "other things" first, there wasn't anything left to tithe. I didn't put God first, but things. 
 Matthew 6:33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

Another thing about giving outside of 10%, whatever you feel is going to be you offering, and that you've promised to God, stick with it. 
In Acts one can find a narrative relating to a man and wife who promised to sell a piece of property and donate it to the Church. Instead they only brought part of the selling price before the Lord and were struck dead for lying to God (Acts 5:4). A clear examples that the first-century Church did not establish nor insist on a 10% (or tithe) rule but instead emphasized freewill giving. 

I hope this discussion blesses someone.


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## PaperClip (Jan 28, 2008)

christie_love said:


> Another thing about giving outside of 10%, whatever you feel is going to be you offering, and that you've promised to God, stick with it.
> In Acts one can find a narrative relating to a man and wife who promised to sell a piece of property and donate it to the Church. Instead they only brought part of the selling price before the Lord and were struck dead for lying to God (Acts 5:4). A clear examples that the first-century Church did not establish nor insist on a 10% (or tithe) rule but instead emphasized freewill giving.
> 
> I hope this discussion blesses someone.


 
Is it possible that the ROOT of the reason that that couple was struck dead was because they LIED/DIDN'T KEEP THEIR VOW (regardless of what the vow/promise was)? The principle of tithing does not apply to this scripture.

Acts 5:3-6 (The Message)
"3-4Peter said, "Ananias, how did Satan get you to lie to the Holy Spirit and secretly keep back part of the price of the field? Before you sold it, it was all yours, and after you sold it, the money was yours to do with as you wished. So what got into you to pull a trick like this? You didn't lie to men but to God." 

5-6Ananias, when he heard those words, fell down dead. That put the fear of God into everyone who heard of it. The younger men went right to work and wrapped him up, then carried him out and buried him. 


 7-8Not more than three hours later, his wife, knowing nothing of what had happened, came in. Peter said, "Tell me, were you given this price for your field?" 

   "Yes," she said, "that price."  
 9-10Peter responded, "What's going on here that you connived to conspire against the Spirit of the Master? The men who buried your husband are at the door, and you're next." No sooner were the words out of his mouth than she also fell down, dead. When the young men returned they found her body. They carried her out and buried her beside her husband.


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## christie_love (Jan 29, 2008)

> Is it possible that the ROOT of the reason that that couple was struck dead was because they LIED/DIDN'T KEEP THEIR VOW (regardless of what the vow/promise was)? The principle of tithing does not apply to this scripture.



This scripture relates to tithing in relation to freewill giving. An earlier post suggested that in the New testaments freewill giving was emphasised more than tithing. For those who are in agreement with freewill giving over a set tithe par se should just be consistent with what they purposed to give. Yes lying was a part of it, but what they lied about was their freewill gift.


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## intellect_sensual (Jan 29, 2008)

Luke 18:9-14

To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about[a] himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' 

 13"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'  14"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."


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## Mahalialee4 (Jan 30, 2008)

QUOTE=missty1029;3628171]Ok so I have some questions.  I just started back into the church and I often stayed awayvbecause of the money issue.

Know what I dont understand about tithing?  If someone does it they have that choice.  But people who dont are cast out and said to be disobedient. Why? The bible and everything in it is interpretation.  No one may want to hear that but unless you were there and can read the original language the bible was written in, its interpretation.  There is nothing wrong with that.  And I am may get blasted for saying this. But when I got to church and my pastor singles out all the people who have the exact amount he asks for or always talks about how you have to catch up and if you dont pay you dont need to be there, then that is messed up.  I know I shoudl have faith in God but when lights get cut off and car being repossessed its hard to see a pastor pulling up in him BMW in his three peice suits of whatever church you may go to.  


From all the differnet quotes I read on tithing it seems to stress the importance of giving a portion of what you have.  But it also seems like that has lost its focus because it must be 10% of your salary.  

There are people of different faith who dont tithe and are  blessed and there are people who tithe and still face hardships.

What happened to just being a good person?  What happened to giving what you can with what you have?  

I know this question of tithing runs a lot of people out of the church and it ruins a lot of peoples faith.  To me thats the really issue and I dont think thats what Gods plan is.  I dont think in any way God has it if you dont give your 10% your not as good as the next.  

But Im just someone who believes God loves me, I was born in his image and he has great things for me.  I will always give back because that is in my heart on being a good person.  But I think its messed up when churches, pastors and whoever else tries to make me feel like a bad person because I dont give what is an interpretation of the bible to be 10% of my salary.[/QUOTE]


Misty, could I just minister to your heart and from a place that I have been
I totally understand where you are coming from: a place of discouragement. When people come to the Lord, broken and in need of restoration, there can be many stumbling blocks placed in your path. Often great discouragement.
Let me share this with you. You may be able to see the humor of some of the situations. When I was searching and wanting God in my life....before I became a Christian, I had people, "well meaning Christians" coming out of the woodwork. I knew nothing about "church", I was raised from a babe to believe that "all Christian Churches were synogues of Satan" so you know I was totally clueless and fearful living in a community full of "gasp!!!"churches.  I had never associated with any Christians. It took so much courage for me to walk inside of a church, knowing that when I did, I would be considered forever dead to my family and friends, forever and shunned privately and publicly by them. I was already being shunned once they found out I was reading the Bible. I was on 9 months bedrest and received only one visitor one time who told me they had been warned to stay away from me. I truly had to forsake family and friends to seek Jesus so I decided to give the "Christians" a chance. All I had was a Bible that I had been reading like it was food, and a heart for God. I was just "one of those little ones that believe." based on what I had read in the Bible by myself.  People who were raised in the church or had "Christian relatives" or friends, take a lot for granted and do not realize that they can be stumbling blocks to one of his little ones, in their eagerness, and bruise the spirit. But Jesus said " a heart broken and contrite He would no means turn away". And Jesus will not turn you away over money.

 People are imperfect, as are Christians and Pastors. I share this with you to encourage you to keep seeking Him and pray that He will give you a pastor after His own heart. When I was going through that, I came across that in His Word, and I held on to it, like a dying woman. Jeremiah 3:15 " And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding" ..I pray that for you. I have since been exposed to many different pastors and some are tried and true and have a heart for God who do feed with knowledge and understanding and even more ...wisdom. To continue what I was sharing: on discovering that "this lost, unsaved person" was up for "grabs," ( I have to look back on some of this with humor!), pastors and all kinds of professing christians were turning up at my doorstep. At work, I would get bombarded and harassed. What they said was dogmatic law and that was that, no questions asked, with not a few "or else you are going to hell!!!!". Their first concern was to inform me even before I attended their services that I needed to  "tithe", or "speak in tongues", or worship on Saturday, or pray to Mary", based on their beliefs..."or else I was going to hell!"   everybody was just so intent on ramming their particular doctrines down my throat, they left nothing to God and the Holy Spirit to draw me and lead me,  beating me with her Bible everyday on hard doctrines I had never heard and shoving "meat" down my throat before I had even tasted the milk!  And they were so sincere!   They stood in the path of eternal life and blocked it, like a toll booth and gatekeepers and guards. I said to one lady at work" I would love to come to Jesus, I just wish you would get out of the way...maybe people like you are the reason people do not want to listen to you Christians." Her unloving attitude, rudeness, arrogance, and self righteousness and threatening fire and brimstone had actually become a part of her character, and I had to work with this woman. ( Girl it was a trip!) In another situation, I was on a lunch break, minding my own business, and a "christian" sat down at my table, and literally harassed me in what she thought was "witnessing" to me the whole time, despite my requesting her to leave my table.  I did not know this lady. This was in a large government cafeteria. She worked in one of the departments.

See, the Bible says "No one comes to the Father unless the Spirit draws them", and they were not using wisdom and it was a turn off and stumbling block and an offense. Had they been led by the Spirit, their methods and approach and spirit would have been different. I pray they have gotten wiser over the years.

"There is a time for every affair under the sun.." I am believing that you feel that it was the wrong time in your life and the wrong place for that to be directed at you by a believer and by a pastor and especially publicly. Now I do not know what is in his heart, but God knows your heart and what you need. Ask Him to lead you to where you should be to receive what you need at the time. He is so faithful I tell you.  And the business about the money will be straightened out too if you trust Him. "Why so downcast, O my soul, put your trust in {GOD!}"
If He could do this for me when I was yet an unbeliever, before I was His child, I know He can do so much for you!!!


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## Puddles (Jan 30, 2008)

lauren450 said:


> I agree with the bolded. I can hear your heart on this, and this is why I am so frustrated about the false teaching going forth.
> 
> [/B]



I have an honest question........
If you believe it's false teaching......does that make what "you" believe correct? 
Everyone has different ways of interpreting the Bible.  
I believe that we're still under the law. And no we're not going to tithe exactly like they did then.....we're in a totally different time and place. We live under the law in this time....not BC. (my opinion)

Do you think it's possible that you're understanding it wrong and the majority is not?

Me? I believe in tithes and offerings.


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## missty1029 (Jan 30, 2008)

Thank you Mahalialee4.
I guess part of my problem is the sacrifice and faith. Because in all honestly if I walk to church and give 10% of what I make then someone is not getting paid.  I have had enough homelessness, repossessions and lawsuits to last me a life time.  I barely pay my bills now.  And I have three jobs well now two. But I guess thats where faith comes in. If I give the 10% it will come back to me some way somehow.  Its kind of hard to see that when financial problems are my downfall right now.  And I also understand the taking the money and spending it else where. Where again I don't do. I cant do.  So my questions come from not wanting to give but when you don't have 10% to give. Ill sacrifice myself but my obligations are to others and how do you tell bill collecters in court thanks but i am blessed.


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## Mahalialee4 (Jan 31, 2008)

Hi Missty: Keep the faith! You may want to consider the following:
When a Christian does not pay their bills, it can cause the "Way" to be spoken of abusively. "We are to pay Caesar's things to Caesar and God's things to God".  When we do not pay our  mortgages...taxes...bills, we can wind up with our homes repossessed and if we steal from man we can end up in prison. God is far more merciful than man. 
First Step:
Do what you can to give "reasonable" service To Him in ways that you can. Present your self to Him to do His will with the sacrifice of the fruit of your lips. In all you do "give thanks" for what He has done for you and what He is going to do for you. Pay your bills. Pay Caesar. God is long suffering and kind. Caesar and the bill collectors are not!  Now "Christian folk" may in spite of your circumstances hold you "hostage" to 10 per cent with no mercy and no justice and no mercy that God can turn your situation around! So they may have to wait.

 However....The main thing to consider....Do you believe God is a loving God and do you trust Him to work through all of this with you and guide you through this valley of need? Personally. I stand by what I said in my previous post. Some things take time to work it out. God is for you, not against you! He did not call us "to get our money!" He did not send His Son to die for us in order to  "get our money!". He wants our hearts. He wants our faith and He wants our trust. When He has your faith and your heart, then He can start to miraculously move the mountains in your life. He can break bondages and help you be an overcomer. He can bless you and when He does, you will want to be a colaborer in His Kingdom interests. God is not a "pay me first" and then I will love you and then ...we will see."  No. First, Jesus died for you. Then, the Father, He has blessed you by sending the Holy Spirit to draw you and teach you. every good thing in your life is from Him. He  has kept you and never left you. He placed you in the Body. See, God does His part first. He already loved you even when you were a sinner.  It is about LOVE. He says that "if you draw close to Him, He will draw close to you. He is talking about an intimate relationship. It is about RELATIONSHIP...NOT MONEY. If it was about money and that is His main concern, He would have called only rich people!  If you have a heart longing to give, with His blessing, You will become blessed to give, not out of compulsion but out of a heart of thanksgiving. If that is the "cry of your heart" then:

"Wait...I say...wait on the Lord....in all your ways take notice of Him, and He will give you the desires of your heart."


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