# Should Women be Pastors?



## metamorfhosis (Apr 15, 2008)

Hello-

I am trying to understand this issue in the church. I attended a church where there was a female pastor but her husband was the Elder. I was a little torn because the Bible says that a woman should be "silent" in the church. 

*1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (New International Version)*

34 women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.


So what do you all think about women being pastors? ​


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## PassionFruit (Apr 15, 2008)

Women should NOT be pastors...   they do NOT belong in the pulpit or as leaders over men in the church
They can evangelize & minister without violating any of that


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## PaperClip (Apr 15, 2008)

I. AM. SUPPOSED. TO. BE. ON. HIATUS!!!!






Women can be pastors.

The Bible does not seem to support women being bishops.

The 1 Corinthians 14 reference has to be considered in CULTURAL context. The women were talking out loud, asking questions, ergo "If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home"....

I'm convinced that if the Lord would choose to use a WILLING woman before He uses a ROCK (Luke 19:40).

I'm convinced that if the Lord chose to use a DONKEY to speak His word, surely He would use a woman. (Numbers 22:21-41)
"28 Then God gave speech to the donkey. She said to Balaam: "What have I ever done to you that you have beat me these three times?"

What? According to this scripture, it was a FEMALE DONKEY!!!! WOW!!!!

I'm convinced that a woman can "carry" and "deliver" the Word of God. Mary did so (St. John 1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS GOD!")

How many women do you know teach Sunday School? How about children's Sunday School? Is every child in the church female? Are there male children in Sunday School? Being taught by FEMALE TEACHERS?

Ironic.
Hypocritical.
Schizophrenic.

Ironic.


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## klb120475 (Apr 15, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> I*. AM. SUPPOSED. TO. BE. ON. HIATUS!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Nice & Wavy (Apr 15, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> I. AM. SUPPOSED. TO. BE. ON. HIATUS!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Thank you sister for answering this for me, a woman PASTOR!!!

luv ya!


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## PaperClip (Apr 15, 2008)

klb120475 said:


>


 
You stop laughing at me, lachen!



Clarification: I WAS NOT calling the OP or her question ironic, hypocritical, or schizophrenic. I was directing that toward the old traditional establishment that continues to MISUSE the word to justify such oppressive mentalities.


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## Opalsunset (Apr 15, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> I. AM. SUPPOSED. TO. BE. ON. HIATUS!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Amen! I agree completely. My grandmother is a Minister. God called her over 50 years ago and she followed his voice.Im glad she and so many other women have in the name of the Lord.


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## Ms.Honey (Apr 15, 2008)

The Lord never put any restrictions on women holding any position in the church neither did the Apostles or the early church. That's mess that crept in later. I think He does have them do it under the authority of their husbands though or another of their male authority. Paul referred to sisters as CO-laborers of the Gospel, equals. And in the O.T. Judges 4:4 the Lord made a woman ruler over Israel. *"And DEBORAH, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, SHE judged Israel at that time."*  So doesn't it make since that if He would have a women be ruler over His people, the apple of His eye, a *whole nation*, that He wouldn't have a problem with one being a Pastor or Bishop or in any leadership position for that matter over a few folks in comparison?
  As far as being silent in the church Paul clearly identifies what he's talking about. Stop talking during the service. If you have a question, if you've missed something that the preacher said don't ask during the message, wait and ask your husband when you get home. I don't know about at y'alls churches but I know at mine and some others I've attended the sisters are always trying to preach the service along with the Pastor and some have NO problem at all hollering from the pew to the pulpit asking the Pastor to repeat himselfI agree with Paul, it IS a shame, a cryin' shame


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## kbragg (Apr 16, 2008)

I'm very angry right now that I made a long reply to this and I timed out!!!

Reader's digest version, I don't know. Although the Corinthian scripture can be argued i.e. cultural context, 1 Timothy 2 is pretty plain. HOWEVER Paul addresses women leaders in the church in Colossians, Philipians, 2 Timothy, and travels with Pricilla & Aquilla (IMO co-pastors, I believe she was more than a preachers wife and perhaps even help a high position than him seeing as her name is always listed before his, but this is not factually provable).

So for now I think that the Bible DOES support women preaching the Word, but running the church i.e. in a Pastoral authoritive position, I dunno


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## PassionFruit (Apr 16, 2008)

kbragg said:


> I'm very angry right now that I made a long reply to this and I timed out!!!
> 
> Reader's digest version, I don't know. Although the Corinthian scripture can be argued i.e. cultural context, 1 Timothy 2 is pretty plain. HOWEVER Paul addresses women leaders in the church in Colossians, Philipians, 2 Timothy, and travels with Pricilla & Aquilla (IMO co-pastors, I believe she was more than a preachers wife and perhaps even help a high position than him seeing as her name is always listed before his, but this is not factually provable).
> 
> So for now I think that the Bible DOES support women preaching the Word, but running the church i.e. in a Pastoral authoritive position, I dunno


 

pretty much sums up my feelings on the issue


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## 2buttonsnow3 (Apr 16, 2008)

kbragg said:


> I'm very angry right now that I made a long reply to this and I timed out!!!
> 
> Reader's digest version, I don't know. Although the Corinthian scripture can be argued i.e. cultural context, 1 Timothy 2 is pretty plain. HOWEVER Paul addresses women leaders in the church in Colossians, Philipians, 2 Timothy, and travels with Pricilla & Aquilla (IMO co-pastors, I believe she was more than a preachers wife and perhaps even help a high position than him seeing as her name is always listed before his, but this is not factually provable).
> 
> *So for now I think that the Bible DOES support women preaching the Word, but running the church i.e. in a Pastoral authoritive position, I dunno*






*I agree completely with the bolded.*


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## Ms.Honey (Apr 16, 2008)

The Greek word for woman in 1Tim 2:11 and 1Cor 14:34-35 is gune which specifically means a *wife*. The scriptures are the same. Paul is saying that a wife should not continuously ask her husband what's going on or try to explain it to him but to be quiet during the service. If she wants to know what she missed let her ask him when they get home. We have to keep the verse in context. He is obviously addressing a situation where a wife is talking to her husband during service and interupting it. He is not giving an example of a wife who is preaching a sermon. He is addressing a wife trying to *LEARN* something *DURING *the service.


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## MrsQueeny (Apr 16, 2008)

Should Women be Pastors? Yes. 

I love all of you. Have a great day!!! Q


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## Ms.Honey (Apr 16, 2008)

Queeny20 said:


> Should Women be Pastors? Yes.
> 
> I love all of you. Have a great day!!! Q


 Girl you are so crazy


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## Nice & Wavy (Apr 16, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> The Greek word for woman in 1Tim 2:11 and 1Cor 14:34-35 is gune which specifically means a *wife*. The scriptures are the same. Paul is saying that a wife should not continuously ask her husband what's going on or try to explain it to him but to be quiet during the service. If she wants to know what she missed let her ask him when they get home. We have to keep the verse in context. He is obviously addressing a situation where a wife is talking to her husband during service and interupting it. He is not giving an example of a wife who is preaching a sermon. He is addressing a wife trying to *LEARN* something *DURING *the service.



Thank you, MsHoney!

Sometimes, I wonder


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## Nice & Wavy (Apr 16, 2008)

Queeny20 said:


> Should Women be Pastors? Yes.
> 
> I love all of you. Have a great day!!! Q



I love you too, Q!


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## klb120475 (Apr 16, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> The Lord never put any restrictions on women holding any position in the church neither did the Apostles or the early church. That's mess that crept in later. I think He does have them do it under the authority of their husbands though or another of their male authority. Paul referred to sisters as CO-laborers of the Gospel, equals. And in the O.T. Judges 4:4 the Lord made a woman ruler over Israel. *"And DEBORAH, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, SHE judged Israel at that time."* So doesn't it make since that if He would have a women be ruler over His people, the apple of His eye, a *whole nation*, that He wouldn't have a problem with one being a Pastor or Bishop or in any leadership position for that matter over a few folks in comparison?
> *As far as being silent in the church Paul clearly identifies what he's talking about. Stop talking during the service. If you have a question, if you've missed something that the preacher said don't ask during the message, wait and ask your husband when you get home. I don't know about at y'alls churches but I know at mine and some others I've attended the sisters are always trying to preach the service along with the Pastor and some have NO problem at all hollering from the pew to the pulpit asking the Pastor to repeat himself*I agree with Paul, it IS a shame, a cryin' shame


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## PassionFruit (Apr 16, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> I don't know about at y'alls churches but I know at mine and some others I've attended the sisters are always trying to preach the service along with the Pastor and some have NO problem at all hollering from the pew to the pulpit asking the Pastor to repeat himselfI agree with Paul, it IS a shame, a cryin' shame



we have a woman who literally repeats every word the pastor says, LOUDLY no matter if he is preaching, teaching or praying

Pastor:  And Paul Said...

Lady: AND PAUL SAID..

Pastor: Let us Bow our heads...

Lady: LET US BOW OUR HEADS...


she isnt slow, senile or anything of the sort...   just LOUD and IMO, disrespectful to the others she is distracting....


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## PaperClip (Apr 16, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> The Greek word for woman in 1Tim 2:11 and 1Cor 14:34-35 is gune which specifically means a *wife*. The scriptures are the same. Paul is saying that a wife should not continuously ask her husband what's going on or try to explain it to him but to be quiet during the service. If she wants to know what she missed let her ask him when they get home. We have to keep the verse in context. He is obviously addressing a situation where a wife is talking to her husband during service and interupting it. He is not giving an example of a wife who is preaching a sermon. He is addressing a wife trying to *LEARN* something *DURING *the service.


 
Yes. I agree and concur with this.... ergo my question:

who am I supposed to ask my questions to at home? As a single woman? I have LOTS and LOTS and LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of questions....

Sigh....

I'm ok....


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## klb120475 (Apr 16, 2008)

PassionFruit said:


> we have a woman who literally repeats every word the pastor says, LOUDLY no matter if he is preaching, teaching or praying
> 
> *Pastor: And Paul Said...*
> 
> ...


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## Caramela (Apr 16, 2008)

1 Tim 2:12-15 
Based on God's word, the answer to the op's question is, no.


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## PaperClip (Apr 16, 2008)

Caramela said:


> 1 Tim 2:12-15
> Based on God's word, the answer to the op's question is, no.


 
RR speaking here: As I believe that the Lord allows women to pastor, I also believe that they are to have a MALE COVERING, be it their husband or spiritual authority that they come under, most likely a bishop.

From browsing this commentary, it appears that such restriction was put on the SOME of the women in this particular church because they were being DISORDERLY. OUT OF ORDER... WRONGFULLY USURPING AUTHORITY. A woman can pastor in PROPER ORDER, as she willfully comes under the authority of her covering, e.g., her husband or other appropriate spiritual authority.

Entire commentary at this link: http://www.biblegateway.com/resourc...etCommentaryText&cid=10&source=1&seq=i.61.2.3


_The woman-man relationship in the worship service (2:11-15)._ Today, among those who take the Bible seriously, two main positions have emerged in the discussion of this passage and its implications. As the following brief outline of each position will show, the passage needs to be considered as a whole, for the instructions of verses 11-12 (and also vv. 9-10) are grounded in some way by verses 13-15. 
 One position (here called position 1) generally maintains that verses 11-12 prohibit women from teaching and holding authority over men. Within the worship setting their appropriate role is that of the learner. *Women will be quiet during the teaching portion of the service--that is, they will not teach or question. And they will be fully submissive to men's authority.* Furthermore, on the basis of the Genesis material in verses 13-14, the arrangement sanctioned by Paul is held to be permanent. Verse 13 grounds the subordinate position of the woman in the order of creation, the man having been created first. The allusion to Eve's deception in verse 14 presents an illustration of the negative consequences that result when the divinely willed structure is disturbed. In one way or another verse 15 then refers positively to the acceptable role of women.

The second position (which I shall call position 2) insists that the passage contains a temporary restraining order issued to curb the activities of a group of women who (most argue) were teaching the heresy in Ephesus. Thus the relegation of women to the role of learners, who must be quiet and submissive to the imposed (male) authority structure, represents *a local rather than a universal rule.* Similarly, the prohibition from teaching in verse 12 was a *stopgap measure,* and the reference to holding authority over a man is better understood as *"wrongfully usurping" his authority.* As far as Paul's use of Genesis goes, verse 14 provides an example or explanation, showing how just as the deception of Eve had drastic results, so also did the deception of some women in Ephesus. Verse 13 is somewhat problematic for this position.



_Teach_ and _have authority over a man_ (v. 12) may be references to separate activities that Paul restricted to men. Or the first term might represent a specific example of activity that falls under the general rule that follows: women's teaching in the public assembly would violate the given authority structure. *In either case, we should notice that Paul did not employ his usual term for "the normal exercise of authority" (exousia). He chose an unusual word (authenteo) that could carry negative connotations such as "to usurp or misappropriate authority" or "to domineer." *The unusual term probably signifies an unusual situation. In the Ephesian context at least, *women had misappropriated authority by taking upon themselves the role of teacher.*
*Thus verses 11-12 aim to restore peace in the worship service by placing certain limits on the role of women.* Probably as a result of the influence of the false teaching, *some* *women had assumed the role of teacher.* This step led Paul to invoke a subordination rule; it seems to have precluded women from teaching men, since to do so constituted _authenteo--that_ is, the wrongful appropriation of authority over men.


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## kbragg (Apr 16, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> RR speaking here: As I believe that the Lord allows women to pastor, I also believe that they are to have a MALE COVERING, be it their husband or spiritual authority that they come under, most likely a bishop.
> 
> From browsing this commentary, it appears that such restriction was put on the SOME of the women in this particular church because they were being DISORDERLY. OUT OF ORDER... WRONGFULLY USURPING AUTHORITY. A woman can pastor in PROPER ORDER, as she willfully comes under the authority of her covering, e.g., her husband or other appropriate spiritual authority.
> 
> ...


 
I'm glad you came out of your hiatus to post this This is a very balanced viewpoint You have one side saying that women can't do anything, and then the other side where domineering women run everything with not a male leader anywhere in sight. It's enough to make you crazy!

I love your balanced viewpoint as this is a sensative topic that we (women) tend to get very emotional about i.e. if anyone were to say anything about a woman not teaching, having ultimate authority etc. the opposite side tends to take it as them saying "a women can't do anything for God because she doesn't have a penis." You have one side that totally ignores and disregards the scriptures that speak against a woman having ultimate authority, and then the other side that blows off all the women mentioned by Paul, John, Luke, & Peter in the Apostolic letters...where's the love people!


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## PaperClip (Apr 16, 2008)

kbragg said:


> I'm glad you came out of your hiatus to post this This is a very balanced viewpoint You have one side saying that women can't do anything, and then the other side where domineering women run everything with not a male leader anywhere in sight. It's enough to make you crazy!
> 
> I love your balanced viewpoint as this is a sensative topic that we (women) tend to get very emotional about i.e. if anyone were to say anything about a woman not teaching, having ultimate authority etc. the opposite side tends to take it as them saying "a women can't do anything for God because she doesn't have a penis." You have one side that totally ignores and disregards the scriptures that speak against a woman having ultimate authority, and then the other side that blows off all the women mentioned by Paul, John, Luke, & Peter in the Apostolic letters...where's the love people!


 
Hey, Kbragg: I think my hiatus is a JOKE!!!!

For me, this issue pretty well settled. I know too much to believe otherwise. I've seen too much to believe otherwise. I know the call and chosen assignment upon MY OWN LIFE that I CANNOT DENY. 

Can't NOBODY tell me that the Lord would choose a ROCK over me as a human being, the creation made in HIS OWN IMAGE! I already got the vocal chords, for example, whereas the rock does not. Sure, the Lord can use ANYTHING, ANYBODY, at ANYTIME to declare His Word. And that ALSO INCLUDES ME in this FEMALE TEMPLE.

It's TOO LATE to convince me otherwise. TOOOOOO LATE!


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## klb120475 (Apr 16, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Hey, Kbragg: I think *my hiatus is a JOKE*!!!!


 
Uh...yeah...pretty much!


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## Ms.Honey (Apr 16, 2008)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Thank you, MsHoney!
> 
> Sometimes, I wonder


 
Me too girl


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## Ms.Honey (Apr 16, 2008)

klb120475 said:


>


 Girl you know it's true


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## Ms.Honey (Apr 16, 2008)

PassionFruit said:


> we have a woman who literally repeats every word the pastor says, LOUDLY no matter if he is preaching, teaching or praying
> 
> Pastor: And Paul Said...
> 
> ...


 And WHY are they always up front. They'd be at the pulpit standing beside him if they couldAnd WHY do they always get to church three hours early and attend both servicesThey're sweethearts though, just a little off


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## Ms.Honey (Apr 16, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Yes. I agree and concur with this.... ergo my question:
> 
> who am I supposed to ask my questions to at home? As a single woman? I have LOTS and LOTS and LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of questions....
> 
> ...


 You can ask whoever God set over you as your authority. It doesn't have to be someone who lives in the same house as you. Don't fret. God would never leave you without help


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## divya (Apr 16, 2008)

This will be an interesting topic.



MSHONEY said:


> The Greek word for woman in 1Tim 2:11 and 1Cor 14:34-35 is gune which specifically means a *wife*. The scriptures are the same. Paul is saying that a wife should not continuously ask her husband what's going on or try to explain it to him but to be quiet during the service. If she wants to know what she missed let her ask him when they get home. We have to keep the verse in context. He is obviously addressing a situation where a wife is talking to her husband during service and interupting it. He is not giving an example of a wife who is preaching a sermon. He is addressing a wife trying to *LEARN* something *DURING *the service.



Very true. From my understanding, in the old days of the church (even now in some cultures), men and women also did not sit together. Imagine how chaotic it might become if you have people carrying on conversation when they have substantial distance from each other. So it was an issue of order during the service.

That being said.  I do not believe women should be pastors. Like our role in the home, we have a specific role in the church.  We are to be active in the ministry - teaching and preaching the gospel.  However, the role of a pastor extends beyond these things, and the Bible seems to lend support to the man alone for this role.


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## Mortons (Apr 16, 2008)

perplexedperplexederplexed


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## pearlygurl (Apr 16, 2008)

divya said:


> That being said.  I do not believe women should be pastors. Like our role in the home, we have a specific role in the church.  We are to be active in the ministry - teaching and preaching the gospel.  However, the role of a pastor extends beyond these things, and the Bible seems to lend support to the man alone for this role.



ITA.....


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## Ms.Honey (Apr 17, 2008)

divya said:


> This will be an interesting topic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Where? There is no scriptural basis denying women a pastoral position. The Lord has had a women rule Israel under the authority of her husband.  Paul said women "co-labored" with him in the gospel not ''supported men" but co-labored *with* them. The first person to preach the Gospel was a woman not a man. The first person to receive instruction from the risen Jesus was a woman not a man. The women BELIEVED the testimony of God and waited for Him on the Third day at his tomb while the men were off fishing. He gave these vitally important assignments to women. In Acts I believe there were sisters who ran churches from there homes, I'll search.
I believe most Protestant denominations and non-denominational churches have women Pastors. Now to me if male Bishops and Pastors believe that women should hold these positions.......


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## Ms.Honey (Apr 17, 2008)

divya said:


> This will be an interesting topic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


pearlygurl said:


> ITA.....


 
Do you ladies belong to denominational or non-denominational churches that have women Pastors? If not, which one?


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## Caramela (Apr 17, 2008)

divya said:


> That being said.  I do not believe women should be pastors. Like our role in the home, we have a specific role in the church.  We are to be active in the ministry - teaching and preaching the gospel.  However, the role of a pastor extends beyond these things, and the Bible seems to lend support to the man alone for this role.



I agree. 
It's fine to _feel_ a certain way about something (those are your personal feelings) but is one's faith based on facts or feelings?


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## divya (Apr 17, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> Where? There is no scriptural basis denying women a pastoral position. The Lord has had a women rule Israel under the authority of her husband.  Paul said women "co-labored" with him in the gospel not ''supported men" but co-labored *with* them. The first person to preach the Gospel was a woman not a man. The first person to receive instruction from the risen Jesus was a woman not a man. The women BELIEVED the testimony of God and waited for Him on the Third day at his tomb while the men were off fishing. He gave these vitally important assignments to women. In Acts I believe there were sisters who ran churches from there homes, I'll search.
> I believe most Protestant denominations and non-denominational churches have women Pastors. Now to me if male Bishops and Pastors believe that women should hold these positions.......



God has a purpose for both men and women, which includes particular roles for each of us. That being said, there is no scriptural basis in support of women in the pastoral position. Co-laboring _with_ does not mean that both were pastors. Look at the fact that no women were apostles, for example. There is a difference between teaching and preaching the Word of God, and running the church. Just because the majority of Protestant denominations maintain a certain practice (and/or most males agree) does not make it in accordance with the Bible, as there are others areas in which we fall short. I rather rely on the Bible on this issue. 

*Here the Bible is actually specific. 1 Timothy 3:1-5 as well as the rest of the chapter.*

This is a true saying, if a *man* desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. *A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, *vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; *(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) *...

Verses 12, 13.*Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife,* ruling their children and their own houses well. For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. 


*Titus 1:5-7*
For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and *ordain elders* in every city, as I had appointed thee: If any be blameless, *the husband of one wife*, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;


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## Ms.Honey (Apr 17, 2008)

divya said:


> God has a purpose of both men and women, which includes particular roles for each of us. That being said, there is no scriptural basis in support of women in the pastoral position. Co-laboring _with_ does not mean that both were pastors. Look at the fact that no women were apostles, for example. There is a difference between teaching and preaching the Word of God, and running the church. Just because the majority of Protestant denominations or males have women maintain a certain practice does not make it in accordance with the Bible, as there are others areas in which we fall short. I rather rely on the Bible on this issue.
> 
> *Here the Bible is actually specific. 1 Timothy 3:1-5 as well as the rest of the chapter.*
> 
> ...


 
*Genesis1;26 "And God said let us make man in our image and in our likeness",* so women aren't made in the image and likeness of God. *1 Tim 2:3-4 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior who will would have all men be saved and come unto the knowledge of truth",* God only wants men to receive salvation and come to the knowledge of truth. I could go on and on.
 You have to keep the scripture in context and not pull out random scriptures to prove your point. You have to remember that Paul was addressing specific questions that Timothy and Titus had  had inquired of him. He also describes a situation were a man is having an affair with his mother in law and Paul says that he must be excommunicated until he repents and when he does forgive him and let him back in. Does that mean that only men can be adulterers,no I don't think so. There are many scriptures directed toward men that don't concern only men.
 No women were Apostles because the Apostles are symbolized as the 12 sons of Jesus as Abraham has 12 sons through his grandson Israel and all that that respresents to Him being the Father of all but that's a whole different topic.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot. In America during slavery, black people weren't consider human so we could not receive salvation That was THEIR way of relying on the bible with no scriptural backing.


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## Nice & Wavy (Apr 17, 2008)

How many of you lead people to salvation?  How many of you pray with people on a regular basis?  How many of you counsel people who are having difficulties in their lives?  How many of you minister to those who have lost a loved one? Are you there with them, helping them through their time of grief, with prayer and supplication?  How many of you minister the Gospel to hundreds or thousands of people?  Do you know how?  If so, how many times have you done this and how many people gave their hearts to Jesus Christ after you share this Gospel?  How many of you get up at 2, 3, 4am to go to someone's home to pray for them because their child just died, or some other type of horrific tragedy, or for a couple who are having abuse issues in the home and need help?  How many of you listen, truly listen to those who are struggling with drugs and alcohol dependency, and then are able to help them along in their struggle?  How many of you counsel the youth in their struggle with sex, pregnancy, diseases, etc.?  How many of you help people with necessities for living: Food, clothing, shelter...on a weekly basis?

I can go on and on but I would really like to know.

Now, I can answer all these questions and say YES, I do these things on a regular.  How can I do these things?  Because I have been called by God to do them...that's why *He* made me a Pastor.

That's all I'm going to say about this in this thread.  Say what you must...but remember this: We will be held accountable for what we say and do in this life.  I know God will say to me in the end..."Well, done thou good and faithful servant...enter into the joy of the Lord!!!


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## Seeking8Rights (Apr 17, 2008)

I think that yes, women are allowed to be pastors, however, there is a place and time to do such.  

Here is why (based upon my understanding): 

When reading and interpreting the verse 1Co. 14:34-35, one needs to take in account the time in which Paul addressed the church of Corinth.  During this time, the church of Corinth was gathering in immorality.  The church as out of order and Paul addressed those areas in order that the church be restored.  There were issues of laziness, false teaching and worship practices (especially with regards to the Lords Supper), there was no unity which created division, and immoralities.                                             

Therefore, Paul’s primary focus was getting Corinth back in order, as we know God operates in order.  

1 Co. 14:34-35 states “women should remain silent in the churches.  They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.  If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.”  (NIV)

There are three words that need to be taken in consideration when interpreting this verse.  Speak; Law; Submission

The verse addresses the position that a woman should take within the church settings.  During that era, their culture did not permit a woman to speak in church, but be in submission as the law says.  The reason we (woman) were not permitted to speak at that time has to deal with the “covering” of the head in relation to being in the presence of the Lord.  As the 1 Co. 11:5 says “And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head.   

What is the significance of the head and a woman’s position in the church?  Well, the significance is that a woman’s hair signifies a glory to a woman and a dishonor to a man.  1 Co. 11:13 -15 says “Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not the very nature of the things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory?  For long hair is given to her as her a covering.   

Furthermore, submission, according to the Bible says that wives submit to their husbands as to the Lord. (Eph. 5:22).  Submission means (Vines) to rather yield ones own right.  **Key phrase: YIELD ONES OWN RIGHT**.  Yield meaning to “give up”.  

Therefore, this means that within the setting of the church, women are to be in submission.  I do not believe it to mean that we are not allowed to be preachers or ministers, but in a church setting, we (woman) should not do such.  Now we know that cultures and social orders change as people do and sometimes God will use whoever is willing, especially if there is a lack of male leaders.  

Another thing we have to consider is that of the Law.  The law in this text refers to the first book of the bible Gen 3:16, where God says to Eve (representing all women) “Your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you.”  Self-explanatory in that if you view the organizational structure between man and woman, men are on top (after God) and women are below.   

Before the fall of man, I believe the organizational structure was horizontal, however, because we (women) shared the responsibility in Adam’s fall, we were removed from such place, and Adam (man) became leader over us.


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## Nice & Wavy (Apr 17, 2008)

Keclee23 said:


> I think that yes, women are allowed to be pastors, however, there is a place and time to do such.
> 
> Here is why (based upon my understanding):
> 
> ...


 
I think that so many of you don't fully know what it means to be a pastor.  

Being a pastor, is being a servant...not lording over anyone.  Why do you all think that that is the definition of being a pastor?  That we as women must be submissive, therefore a woman can't be a pastor because of submission.  Do you all realize that being submissive is for men as well?

I think you all have alot of studying to do and while you are studying...please, ask the Holy Spirit to show you your heart and where you all are suppose be in the body of Christ, so that way you all will be equipped to do the work of the ministry the way God desires for you too.  

The purpose and plan of God is for all men to come to repentance and for no one to perish.  He will use anyone He wants to accomplish this....anyone.  

Have a nice day.


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## Poohbear (Apr 17, 2008)

divya said:


> God has a purpose for both men and women, which includes particular roles for each of us. That being said, there is no scriptural basis in support of women in the pastoral position. Co-laboring _with_ does not mean that both were pastors. *Look at the fact that no women were apostles*, for example. There is a difference between teaching and preaching the Word of God, and running the church. Just because the majority of Protestant denominations maintain a certain practice (and/or most males agree) does not make it in accordance with the Bible, as there are others areas in which we fall short. I rather rely on the Bible on this issue.


The bolded statement is not necessarily true... check out Luke 8:1-3...

Luke 8 - (1) And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him, (2) and *certain women*, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, *Mary* called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils, (3) and *Joanna* the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and *Susanna*, *and many others*, which ministered unto him of their substance. 

Even though the women mentioned in Luke 8:1-3 were not part of the primary 12 disciples, they still went out and proclaimed and brought the good news of God's kingdom just like the 12 disciples.


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## shelly25 (Apr 17, 2008)

metamorfhosis said:


> So what do you all think about women being pastors? ​



I don't see why not...


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## klb120475 (Apr 17, 2008)

Nice & Wavy said:


> I think that so many of you don't fully know what it means to be a pastor.
> 
> *Being a pastor, is being a servant...not lording over anyone*.* Why do you all think that that is the definition of being a pastor? That we as women must be submissive, therefore a woman can't be a pastor because of submission. Do you all realize that being submissive is for men as well?*
> 
> ...


 
I luv you!!! I've been trying to tell folx this for years and of course I get looked at like I'm crazy and they're condemning me to the fiery pits of hell.

When I accepted my calling as a minister....it wasn't about me having "authority" or "power" over someone. 

Ex: Let's say for instance I wasn't currently active in a church in the role or title of "minister". Then someone asks me on the streets if I'm still a minister...my response will be yes because a minister is simply a servant. You don't have to be actively preaching over the pulpit to be a servant. We are all called to servanthood.


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## Bubblingbrownshuga (Apr 17, 2008)

I am so torn on this cause I LUBS me some Joyce Meyers, Marilyn Hickey (and her daughter).


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## Seeking8Rights (Apr 17, 2008)

Nice & Wavy said:


> I think that so many of you don't fully know what it means to be a pastor.
> 
> Being a pastor, is being a servant...not lording over anyone. Why do you all think that that is the definition of being a pastor? That we as women must be submissive, therefore a woman can't be a pastor because of submission. Do you all realize that being submissive is for men as well?
> 
> ...


 
I am fully aware of what a pastor is, as my mother is one.  I don't believe I said that the role of a pastor is to lord over anyone.  

This is a question I have always wondered in which I seeked an answer via the word of God.  Now again, what I said was that I believe we can be used as pastors, however, from my understanding order should be considered.  Yes, I agree God will use anyone and whever he sees fit.  However, we know that he will do such in accordance to his word too.  My reference to submission was pertaining to the topic in question.  If there is something that I missed then as a fellow sister in Christ, point me in the direction of clarification.

Thank you for the encouragement, as God knows my heart is open for further revelation.  I am not one to say that I have all the answers, God knows that too.  We all come from different walks of life with God and we all are not on the same level.  Therefore, many of the questions asked should be approached in a manner to provide edification and understanding to those that lack understanding.  

keclee


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## Seeking8Rights (Apr 17, 2008)

Bubblingbrownshuga said:


> I am so torn on this cause I LUBS me some Joyce Meyers, Marilyn Hickey (and her daughter).


 
I love Joyce Meyers too and have always been a fan.


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## PaperClip (Apr 17, 2008)

Bubblingbrownshuga said:


> I am so torn on this cause I LUBS me some Joyce Meyers, Marilyn Hickey (and her daughter).


 
The women you named are not pastors. They function more in the roles of evangelism and teaching.

Ephesians 4:11: "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;....


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## Seeking8Rights (Apr 17, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> The women you named are not pastors. They function more in the roles of evangelism and teaching.
> 
> Ephesians 4:11: "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;....


 
Right I agree with you RR in that there is a difference, as I have always been taught such.

RR, will you please read through my post to see where I lack understanding?


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## PaperClip (Apr 17, 2008)

Keclee23 said:


> I am fully aware of what a pastor is, as my mother is one. I don't believe I said that the role of a pastor is to lord over anyone.
> 
> This is a question I have always wondered in which I seeked an answer via the word of God. Now again, what I said was that I believe we can be used as pastors, however, from my understanding order should be considered. Yes, I agree God will use anyone and whever he sees fit. However, we know that he will do such in accordance to his word too. My reference to submission was pertaining to the topic in question. If there is something that I missed then as a fellow sister in Christ, point me in the direction of clarification.
> 
> ...


 


Keclee23 said:


> Right I agree with you RR in that there is a difference, as I have always been taught such.
> 
> RR, will you please read through my post to see where I lack understanding?


 
Hello, Keclee:

I see that you mentioned order and submission. I said in an earlier post that as I believe that the Bible allows for a woman to hold and serve in the role, function, and title of pastor, she she needs to have a male COVERING. That covering can be her husband or other appropriate spiritual authority, either a (competent) male pastor or bishop or apostle, etc.

So, as that MALE COVERING ALLOWS that woman to go forth in teaching, preaching, pastorship, etc., neither that man nor that woman is out of order in the Lord because we agree that the Lord has given spiritual authority to the man/male pastor/bishop, etc. and the Lord is not going to override or contradict His biblical instruction.

Let's all be clear about the definition of a pastor: one who covers, guides, leads a religious group of people, e.g., like a shepherd leads a flock of sheep.

The issue with SOME OF the women/wives in 1 Corinthians is that their questioning and domineering attitudes (demonstrated by interrupting the service, probably to the embarrassment of their husbands) caused DISRUPTION in the service. The Apostle Paul spoke and gave instruction on how the situation was to be handled. Tell the women/wives to be quiet and ask their questions to their husbands at home and stop interrupting the service. The Bible says in 1 Corinthians 14:40 to let all things be done decently and in order.

We know some women in our congregations who DISTURB the service for everybody, and it gives a bad name to women who truly have a call upon their lives to go forth and preach/teach/pastor. But as it has been said in this thread, it was a woman who declared the gospel of Jesus Christ upon Jesus' resurrection.

Bottom line: women can pastor. They need a male covering.


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## Nice & Wavy (Apr 17, 2008)

Keclee23 said:


> I am fully aware of what a pastor is, as my mother is one. I don't believe I said that the role of a pastor is to lord over anyone.
> 
> This is a question I have always wondered in which I seeked an answer via the word of God. Now again, what I said was that I believe we can be used as pastors, however, from my understanding order should be considered. Yes, I agree God will use anyone and whever he sees fit. However, we know that he will do such in accordance to his word too. My reference to submission was pertaining to the topic in question. If there is something that I missed then as a fellow sister in Christ, point me in the direction of clarification.
> 
> ...


 
The post that I wrote was a general one...it wasn't directed towards you personally.  I just happened to write it within your post, so my apologies if you thought I directed it towards you.

That is great that your mother is a pastor...but, until you operate under the calling of a pastor, no one can truly understand what it means to be one.

The Word of God doesn't tell us everything...however, that's where the Holy Spirit comes in, because He will teach us everything that we need to know, because He knows the Will of God.

As a pastor, I understand my calling fully, being in the ministry for 21 years.  These types of threads come up and it confuses people, much like the tithing threads...it becomes unfruitful and we should all look to bear "good" fruit at all times.  It also shows those that are not believers, that we can't even agree with some of the most basic topics in Christiandom, so there is no wonder why so many don't want to become a Christian.

I'm done...blessings, always.


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## Nice & Wavy (Apr 17, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Hello, Keclee:
> 
> I see that you mentioned order and submission. I said in an earlier post that as I believe that the Bible allows for a woman to hold and serve in the role, function, and title of pastor, she she needs to have a male COVERING. That covering can be her husband or other appropriate spiritual authority, either a (competent) male pastor or bishop or apostle, etc.
> 
> ...


 
ITA.  My male covering is my husband.


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## Nice & Wavy (Apr 17, 2008)

klb120475 said:


> I luv you!!! I've been trying to tell folx this for years and of course I get looked at like I'm crazy and they're condemning me to the fiery pits of hell.
> 
> When I accepted my calling as a minister....it wasn't about me having "authority" or "power" over someone.
> 
> Ex: Let's say for instance I wasn't currently active in a church in the role or title of "minister". Then someone asks me on the streets if I'm still a minister...my response will be yes because a minister is simply a servant. You don't have to be actively preaching over the pulpit to be a servant. We are all called to servanthood.


 

I luv you too, sis.  It's something that alot of people can't understand.

But, hopefully....we can all agree to disagree and keep it moving

Loving you ALL with the love of the Lord!


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## divya (Apr 17, 2008)

Poohbear said:


> The bolded statement is not necessarily true... check out Luke 8:1-3...
> 
> Luke 8 - (1) And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him, (2) and *certain women*, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, *Mary* called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils, (3) and *Joanna* the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and *Susanna*, *and many others*, which ministered unto him of their substance.
> 
> Even though the women mentioned in Luke 8:1-3 were not part of the primary 12 disciples, they still went out and proclaimed and brought the good news of God's kingdom just like the 12 disciples.




*Nowhere* does that say that these women were apostles...


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## Seeking8Rights (Apr 17, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Hello, Keclee:
> 
> I see that you mentioned order and submission. I said in an earlier post that as I believe that the Bible allows for a woman to hold and serve in the role, function, and title of pastor, she she needs to have a male COVERING. That covering can be her husband or other appropriate spiritual authority, either a (competent) male pastor or bishop or apostle, etc.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you for clarification.  See I knew that women can pastor, however, where I began to ask God to show me is in the area of covering with regards to women who are called to ministry.  I am sitting here burning up my mothers phone line ready to ask her to show me the connection, as I know God called her (therefore, I am obviously missing something).

Again, thank you.


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## Bubblingbrownshuga (Apr 17, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> The women you named are not pastors. They function more in the roles of evangelism and teaching.
> 
> Ephesians 4:11: "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;....


 
They don't go by the titles of pastor, but they are leaders and have their own ministries and without getting caught up in the semantics and such, the point is that they are heads in their ministries and some may believe this is out of order.

I remember Joyce Meyer talking about others trying to push her into having a title and she declined. Maybe the reason why was b/c of the drama it could cause just for claiming that title alone.

What about Bishop Vashti? I can't remember her name but she's a black woman bishop.


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## divya (Apr 17, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> *Genesis1;26 "And God said let us make man in our image and in our likeness",* so women aren't made in the image and likeness of God. *1 Tim 2:3-4 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior who will would have all men be saved and come unto the knowledge of truth",* God only wants men to receive salvation and come to the knowledge of truth. I could go on and on.
> You have to keep the scripture in context and not pull out random scriptures to prove your point. You have to remember that Paul was addressing specific questions that Timothy and Titus had  had inquired of him. He also describes a situation were a man is having an affair with his mother in law and Paul says that he must be excommunicated until he repents and when he does forgive him and let him back in. Does that mean that only men can be adulterers,no I don't think so. There are many scriptures directed toward men that don't concern only men.
> No women were Apostles because the Apostles are symbolized as the 12 sons of Jesus as Abraham has 12 sons through his grandson Israel and all that that respresents to Him being the Father of all but that's a whole different topic.
> Oh yeah, I almost forgot. In America during slavery, black people weren't consider human so we could not receive salvation That was THEIR way of relying on the bible with no scriptural backing.



I certainly am keeping the Scriptures in context, which is exactly why I stated to *read the entire chapter. * The scripture is very clear.  There is nothing random about those verses at all. Further, you have not provided any scriptural response concerning the matter. Please respond with _Thus saith the Lord._


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## pearlygurl (Apr 17, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> Do you ladies belong to denominational or non-denominational churches that have women Pastors? If not, which one?



Non-demoninational...and we have women ministers.


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## PaperClip (Apr 17, 2008)

Keclee23 said:


> Thank you for clarification. See I knew that women can pastor, however, where I began to ask God to show me is in the area of covering with regards to women who are called to ministry. I am sitting here burning up my mothers phone line ready to ask her to show me the connection, as I know God called her (therefore, I am obviously missing something).
> 
> Again, thank you.


 
Amen. And women pastors (well, anybody in ministry) have to be VERY CAREFUL whom they submit to/choose to come under authority.... It's a delicate situation. That male covering serves as that woman pastor's defense, advocate, protector, disciplinarian, spiritual leader/guide, etc. And yet again, the Lord has given us instruction on what to look for in leaders with integrity: like He says about the requirements of a bishop. 

A woman pastor has to be sure that she submits to someone who KNOWS HOW TO LEAD IN INTEGRITY AND COMPETENCE. If she submits under a pastor who is ill-equipped to lead her, then she's going to be angry and oppressed and that male pastor is going to feel threatened and intimidated at that woman pastor's greater anointing.

It's like me trying to get married to a man who cannot "handle" me. I don't mean grabbing on me and all that. What I mean is that the Lord has blessed and anointed me to build this empire (my private joke) and then I'm just going to submit under a man in marriage who I cannot trust, who is incompetent and let the Lord's investment in me be ruined? How about not?

It matters what church you go to. It matters what pastor you submit to. It matters.


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## Nice & Wavy (Apr 17, 2008)

This topic has been here on this forum before.  If you all do a search, you will find out that it was talked about at length.


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## PaperClip (Apr 17, 2008)

Bubblingbrownshuga said:


> They don't go by the titles of pastor, but they are leaders and have their own ministries and without getting caught up in the semantics and such, the point is that they are heads in their ministries and some may believe this is out of order.
> 
> I remember Joyce Meyer talking about others trying to push her into having a title and she declined. Maybe the reason why was b/c of the drama it could cause just for claiming that title alone.
> 
> *What about Bishop Vashti? I can't remember her name but she's a black woman bishop.*


 
I didn't say the Joyce Meyers and others weren't LEADERS, but they do not function in the traditional role of pastors. It's not the point of what title they choose to carry, but their FUNCTIONS in the Body of Christ. They function as evangelists, traveling and preaching the gospel to win souls for Christ. But they do not have a physical place/location that people can go to on a consistent basis for those souls to be fed, nurtured, led, etc. That's what the local churches are for.

And I'm not saying they are out of order, either. Joyce Meyer's husband is pretty visible in the ministry. Marilyn Hickey may also have a male covering that she submits to and that doesn't necessarily have to be all up front, either, but if she is asked who her male covering is, she (Marilyn) should be able to state who that is.

Re. the bolded:Yes, good question. I LOVE Bishop Vashti Murphy MacKenzie. I heard her speak at my school. She's out of the AME (African Methodist Episcopal) Church. The first female bishop. I went back and forth with a couple of my friends trying to justify Bishop Vashti's title but I couldn't. I had to give in because of what the BIBLE says about the office of a bishop (1 Timothy 3):

 1This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 
 2A bishop then must be blameless, *the husband of one wife*, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 
 3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 
 4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 
 5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 
 6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.  7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.​Although Bishop Vashti's example leads me to this question: is the FUNCTION of a bishop WITHOUT the title the same thing? So if Vashti was still doing the things that a bishop does, e.g., overseeing pastors, overseeing churches, etc. (without the title), is she still out of order?

Now that I think about it, I suppose she would be/is....


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## Seeking8Rights (Apr 17, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Amen. And women pastors (well, anybody in ministry) have to be VERY CAREFUL whom they submit to/choose to come under authority.... It's a delicate situation. That male covering serves as that woman pastor's defense, advocate, protector, disciplinarian, spiritual leader/guide, etc. And yet again, the Lord has given us instruction on what to look for in leaders with integrity: like He says about the requirements of a bishop.
> 
> A woman pastor has to be sure that she submits to someone who KNOWS HOW TO LEAD IN INTEGRITY AND COMPETENCE. If she submits under a pastor who is ill-equipped to lead her, then she's going to be angry and oppressed and that male pastor is going to feel threatened and intimidated at that woman pastor's greater anointing.
> 
> ...


 
Ah, I see!  RR, you have truely enlightened me.


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## Ms.Honey (Apr 17, 2008)

divya said:


> I certainly am keeping the Scriptures in context, which is exactly why I stated to *read the entire chapter. *The scripture is very clear. There is nothing random about those verses at all. Further, you have not provided any scriptural response concerning the matter. Please respond with _Thus saith the Lord._


 
Where is your Thus saith the Lord scripture forbidding it? If you choose to stay ignorant then it's not my responsibility to persuade you otherwise. I will not address you further with you foolish arguments.  And you need to read the entire bible to discern the Word not a chapter at least the book in question. At the minimum get some study aids. You have not proven that women are forbidden from being Pastors. When Paul lists the gifts he said and God gave some not and God gave some men. If there was to be a restriction wouldn't it have been there? Don't you think that at least one place in the teachings of Jesus or Apostles it would have been stated? It is not stated directly or even implied. You may want to pray to the Lord instead of assume for the answer then go to you next line of authority and recieve the answer. That is Thus saith the Lord.


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## divya (Apr 17, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> Where is your Thus saith the Lord scripture forbidding it? If you choose to stay ignorant then it's not my responsibility to persuade you otherwise. I will not address you further with you foolish arguments.  And you need to read the entire bible to discern the Word not a chapter at least the book in question. At the minimum get some study aids. You have not proven that women are forbidden from being Pastors. When Paul lists the gifts he said and God gave some not and God gave some men. If there was to be a restriction wouldn't it have been there? Don't you think that at least one place in the teachings of Jesus or Apostles it would have been stated? It is not stated directly or even implied. You may want to pray to the Lord instead of assume for the answer then go to you next line of authority and recieve the answer. That is Thus saith the Lord.



I am asking for Scripture in support of your stance.  This issue is ripe for discussion. Why are you getting nasty? 


Again, these verses deal with church leadership...



> 1 Timothy 3:1-5
> 
> This is a true saying, if a *man* desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. *A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, *vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; *(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) *...
> 
> ...


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## divya (Apr 17, 2008)

Here's a good summary on the issue of women being pastors and our roles in general, with supporting Scripture.

http://www.giveshare.org/BibleStudy/003.women.html


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## Caramela (Apr 17, 2008)

> Again, these verses deal with church leadership...
> 
> 
> Quote:
> ...


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## PaperClip (Apr 17, 2008)

divya said:


> I am asking for Scripture in support of your stance. This issue is ripe for discussion. Why are you getting nasty?
> 
> 
> Again, these verses deal with church leadership...


 
Yes. specific positions are noted: bishop, deacon, and elder. There does not seem to be any disagreement with regard to these three offices. It is NOT specific concerning pastorship.

Ephesians 4:11: "11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

In this capacity, other than apostle, there is no gender directive. It says and he gave "some": both men and women. So just as the Lord was specific with the offices of bishop, deacon, and elder, He would have been specific here in Ephesians 4:11.

Further, it would be interesting to explore the Greek terms for these words to get clarity on the gender distinctions amongst those positions.


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## metamorfhosis (Apr 17, 2008)

I have some thoughts that I would like to share. 

One day an associate of mine called me and said that she had been thinking about me and wanted me to visit her church. So I did. There was a female Pastor and her husband was the Elder. I have never been to a church were I have felt such a strong presence of GOD. At the time of my visit, I was at my lowest point (so far) in life. The pastor opened the floor for prayer and she prayed for me and gave me a hug. You don't know how much that meant to me. So as a result of my experience, I started attending this church regularly. 

I really loved attending the church. Not only did I learn so much about the Word, but I was part of the most beautiful worship experience. People would praise the LORD individually not in unison (copying the way everyone else in the church praised HIM). The worship was so beautiful to me that all I could do (until I got used to it) was cry.  

Long story short---The ministerial staff worked as a unit. When the people came in need of prayer or wanting to get saved, they ALL helped the lost. If they had egos, they set them aside and did GOD's work. They were not trying to be competitive over their positions and place limitations on what they could do for the LORD based on their "position". For example, the Prophetess did not say that she could only give a word from the LORD but rather she didn't let her postion limit her and she helped to pray for the lost. 

I attended this church for 12 years. I moved away from the church area but would drive an hour and a half when I could just to attend the church. 

Now the Pastor I guess (?) was covered by her husband the Elder. He handled offerings/tithes and always gave the final word. 

The church has been closed. They were having financial problems (couldn't hardly pay the mortgage). erplexed

I have heard another pastor say that women have no place in church leadership. He says that a woman should not be in the pulpit at all unless she is singing. And he justifies his beliefs with some scripture.

Within the Body of Christ, I have seen people justify that if it's not in the Bible, it's not a sin. I have also seen bible verses referenced and then people will justify that something is actually contradictory to what the bible says.

I won't go into detail here (I will start a thread) but how can we be one body to be presented to the LORD without spot or blemish if there is so much division. 

It's time to not just talk the talk but to walk the walk. We belong to the Body of Christ. We have different gifts. We should be using our gifts to do the LORD's work and not worry about a title. 

GOD KNOWS our hearts. "Playing church" won't get us into heaven. 

I know that in some churches there has to be eh-order. But people sometimes get caught up in a title. I've seen a church that couldn't do the LORD's work because of competition over titles/positions. 

We should not be trying to please man but rather GOD. And there shouldn't be competition with regards to the LORD's work. There is SO much for all of us to do. And everyone will have their time to let their little light shine.


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## Poohbear (Apr 18, 2008)

divya said:


> *Nowhere* does that say that these women were apostles...


An apostle is just someone that proclaims the good news of Christ.  That's what these women did with the 12 disciples.  We (men and women) as Christians are to be disciples as well.  Yeah you're right in the sense that the Bible doesn't LITERALLY or directly say these women were apostles, but their actions show that they were apostles, disciples, ministers, whatever-you-want-to-call-them.


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## Poohbear (Apr 18, 2008)

metamorfhosis said:


> It's time to not just talk the talk but to walk the walk. We belong to the Body of Christ. We have different gifts. We should be using our gifts to do the LORD's work and not worry about a title.
> 
> GOD KNOWS our hearts. "Playing church" won't get us into heaven.
> 
> ...


EXACTLY! I liked what you have said above!!!


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## divya (Apr 18, 2008)

Poohbear said:


> An apostle is just someone that proclaims the good news of Christ.  That's what these women did with the 12 disciples.  We (men and women) as Christians are to be disciples as well.  Yeah you're right in the sense that the Bible doesn't LITERALLY or directly say these women were apostles, but their actions show that they were apostles, disciples, ministers, whatever-you-want-to-call-them.



Yes, I am aware of the general meaning. However, I am simply speaking to the literal examples written _in_ the Bible. The examples of the early church are still important for us today.  People will disagree as to whether or not some things should be taken as is or not.


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## divya (Apr 18, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Yes. specific positions are noted: bishop, deacon, and elder. There does not seem to be any disagreement with regard to these three offices. It is NOT specific concerning pastorship.
> 
> Ephesians 4:11: "11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
> 
> ...



Yes, the verse seems very general.  However, I have read in commentary, that the Greek form of "pastor" there actually is _male_. Further, later on, specifics are given. Some churches do not have bishops today as leaders, but rather pastors.  As bishops were ordained for their position, so are today's pastors - to oversee the church. It's an equivalent position of leadership, of authority. I trust the Lord made it this way for a reason.


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## PaperClip (Apr 18, 2008)

divya said:


> Yes, the verse seems very general. However, I have read in commentary, that the Greek form of "pastor" there actually is _male_. Further, later on, specifics are given. Some churches do not have bishops today as leaders, but rather pastors. As bishops were ordained for their position, so are today's pastors - to oversee the church. It's an equivalent position of leadership, of authority. I trust the Lord made it this way for a reason.


 
Absolutely.... and based on what you say here, a bishop (male) has the authority to place a woman (just like he would a man) into a position of pastoral leadership. A bishop is operating in proper order if he were to allow and ordain a woman into a pastorship. As the pastor of a church is responsible for leading that congregation, e.g., day-to-day responsibilities of pastoring, the bishop still oversees that pastor and that church.

Clearly, according to the Bible, bishops and pastors are not equivalent positions/roles/titles/functions. 1 Timothy 3 alone demonstrates that as it is a specific outline of the requirements to serve as a bishop. Now some churches may decide to make the two positions equivalent; that's their (misinterpreted?) perrogative.


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## Nice & Wavy (Apr 18, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Absolutely.... and based on what you say here, a bishop (male) has the authority to place a woman (just like he would a man) into a position of pastoral leadership. A bishop is operating in proper order if he were to allow and ordain a woman into a pastorship. As the pastor of a church is responsible for leading that congregation, e.g., day-to-day responsibilities of pastoring, the bishop still oversees that pastor and that church.
> 
> Clearly, according to the Bible, bishops and pastors are not equivalent positions/roles/titles/functions. 1 Timothy 3 alone demonstrates that as it is a specific outline of the requirements to serve as a bishop. Now some churches may decide to make the two positions equivalent; that's there (misinterpreted?) perrogative.



Love you, sis....


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## divya (Apr 18, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Absolutely.... and based on what you say here, a bishop (male) has the authority to place a woman (just like he would a man) into a position of pastoral leadership. A bishop is operating in proper order if he were to allow and ordain a woman into a pastorship. As the pastor of a church is responsible for leading that congregation, e.g., day-to-day responsibilities of pastoring, the bishop still oversees that pastor and that church.
> 
> Clearly, according to the Bible, bishops and pastors are not equivalent positions/roles/titles/functions. 1 Timothy 3 alone demonstrates that as it is a specific outline of the requirements to serve as a bishop. Now some churches may decide to make the two positions equivalent; that's their (misinterpreted?) perrogative.



My post addresses both pastors and bishops. 

Ephesians 4:11: And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

The Greek form of _Pastor _here is said be male.  Clearly in the Bible, bishops, pastors, deacons etc. are all to be male.


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## Farida (Apr 18, 2008)

IMO women should be allowed to be pastors. I find it insulting that the bible forbids it.


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## Farida (Apr 18, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> The Lord never put any restrictions on women holding any position in the church neither did the Apostles or the early church. That's mess that crept in later. I think He does have them do it under the authority of their husbands though or another of their male authority. Paul referred to sisters as CO-laborers of the Gospel, equals. And in the O.T. Judges 4:4 the Lord made a woman ruler over Israel. *"And DEBORAH, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, SHE judged Israel at that time."*  So doesn't it make since that if He would have a women be ruler over His people, the apple of His eye, a *whole nation*, that He wouldn't have a problem with one being a Pastor or Bishop or in any leadership position for that matter over a few folks in comparison?
> As far as being silent in the church Paul clearly identifies what he's talking about. Stop talking during the service. If you have a question, if you've missed something that the preacher said don't ask during the message, wait and ask your husband when you get home. I don't know about at y'alls churches but I know at mine and some others I've attended the sisters are always trying to preach the service along with the Pastor and some have NO problem at all hollering from the pew to the pulpit asking the Pastor to repeat himselfI agree with Paul, it IS a shame, a cryin' shame



All the more reason I feel translations don't accurately convey meaning. I go to school with several seminary students and they study the bible in Greek and Hebrew and I have never heard anyone say this.


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## PaperClip (Apr 18, 2008)

divya said:


> My post addresses both pastors and bishops.
> 
> Ephesians 4:11: And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
> 
> The Greek form of _Pastor _here is said be male. Clearly in the Bible, bishops, pastors, deacons etc. are all to be male.


 


vivmaiko said:


> IMO women should be allowed to be pastors. I find it insulting that the bible forbids it.


 
Divya, I sincerely and graciously request that you "show your work", if you will, by sharing the greek form of pastor as you say it is...to inform our conversation, not to put you on the spot.

Vivmaiko, the Bible does not forbid women serving as pastors. And I amicably advise you to be careful about speaking against the Word of God. Because in a sense, it is speaking against the Holy Spirit, from whom the written/logos Word of God was inspired. We have to be careful that our foolish words don't turn against us. Thank God for a merciful Lord.

That's like me saying that I am insulted that the Bible says I can't have sex outside of marriage. (Example used to lighten the mood).


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## PaperClip (Apr 18, 2008)

Hey, Divya:

I went ahead and looked it up myself....

http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=greeklexicon&isindex=pastor

*Result of search for "pastor":* 

*32.* aggelos _ang'-el-os_ from aggello (probably derived from 71; compare 34) (to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication, a pastor:--angel, messenger. 
*1249.* diakonos _dee-ak'-on-os_ probably from an obsolete diako (to run on errands; compare 1377); an attendant, i.e. (genitive case) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); specially, a Christian teacher and pastor (technically, a deacon or deaconess):--deacon, minister, servant.

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1249&Version=kjv

Lexicon Results for _diakonos_ (Strong's G1249) 
Greek for G1249 
διάκονος Transliteration

diakonos

Pronunciation

dē-ä'-ko-nos (Key)

Part of Speech

masculine/feminine noun


Root Word (Etymology)

probably from an obsolete diako (to run on errands, cf G1377)​TDNT Reference

2:88,152​
Vines

View Entry​


Outline of Biblical Usage 
*1)* one who executes the commands of another, esp. of a master, a servant, attendant, minister
*a)* the servant of a king
*b)* a deacon, one who, by virtue of the office assigned to him by the church, cares for the poor and has charge of and distributes the money collected for their use
*c)* a waiter, one who serves food and drink


*4166.* poimen _poy-mane'_ of uncertain affinity; a shepherd (literally or figuratively):--shepherd, pastor.

Lexicon Results for _poimēn_ (Strong's G4166) 
Greek for G4166 
ποιμήν Transliteration

poimēn

Pronunciation

poi-mā'n (Key)

Part of Speech

masculine noun


Root Word (Etymology)

of uncertain affinity​TDNT Reference

6:485,901​
Vines

View Entry​


Outline of Biblical Usage 
*1)* a herdsman, esp. a shepherd
*a)* in the parable, he to whose care and control others have committed themselves, and whose precepts they follow
*2)* metaph.
*a)* the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church
*1)* of the overseers of the Christian assemblies
*2)* of kings and princes



Responding to what's below in red: Although Phoebe was not a "pastor" in the sense that we know it today, I believe this explanation still does not EXCLUDE women from pastoral leadership, as long as they have a male covering. In this case, the Apostle Paul would have (and did) served as Phoebe's spiritual covering/authority so that she has Paul's permission and support to minister to the church at Cenchrea.

*Women Ministers?*​What about Phoebe? Notice: 
"*I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant* [Greek: _diakonos_] *of the church which is at Cenchrea: That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also*" (Romans 16:1-2, KJV).​*She was a diakonos. Does that mean she held the "office of deaconess"? *
*Make no mistake about it: Phoebe was a diakonos -- a minister!* Notice a few different translations of this verse: 
"*I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church in Cenchrea. I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been a great help to many people, including me*" (verses 1-2, NIV). "*I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church at Cenchreae*" (verse 1, NRSV). "
*And I commend you to Phebe our sister -- being a* *ministrant* *of the assembly that is in Cenchrea*" (_Young's Literal Translation_). ​*Was Phoebe a minister? Oh, absolutely. Paul says so. Was she a church pastor? Probably not. *She was a ministrant or servant, one who was actually *serving* the needs of others. When men take to themselves the title of "minister," only to become the man in charge and boss people around, that man is *not* a minister -- he's the boss man. 

Rest of this at link: http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/are-female-ministers-in-the-bible.html


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## Hair Iam (Apr 18, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> I. AM. SUPPOSED. TO. BE. ON. HIATUS!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Aveena (Apr 18, 2008)

I have serious questions about this as well.. what do you think of 1 timothy 2:11?


11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved[b] through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

This was mentioned RIGHT before 1Tim 3 almost as to put aside and THEN deal with overseers and decons etc....


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## Aveena (Apr 18, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> The Greek word for woman in 1Tim 2:11 and 1Cor 14:34-35 is gune which specifically means a *wife*. The scriptures are the same. Paul is saying that a wife should not continuously ask her husband what's going on or try to explain it to him but to be quiet during the service. If she wants to know what she missed let her ask him when they get home. We have to keep the verse in context. He is obviously addressing a situation where a wife is talking to her husband during service and interupting it. He is not giving an example of a wife who is preaching a sermon. He is addressing a wife trying to *LEARN* something *DURING *the service.


 
ok I'm just seeing this... thx


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## PaperClip (Apr 18, 2008)

Demi_DC said:


> I have serious questions about this as well.. what do you think of 1 timothy 2:11?
> 
> 
> 11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved[b] through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
> ...


 
Your post, along with MsHoney's follow-up, prompted me to think about this: as it applies to a woman in the role of a WIFE, this would apply not only in the church setting but at home, yes? Esp. per the bolded statement?

A wife should not have authority over her husband. A husband should not LET his wife RUN HIM.... Not to say that a woman cannot be of service to her husband through offering her perspective with honor and respect toward her husband, but that she has to approach decently and in order....

...because apparently Eve started a pattern erplexed but through Jesus Christ (women will be saved through childbearing, e.g., Mary (a woman) gave birth to our Lord and SAVIOR Jesus Christ), we are redeemed from that curse of the law. We are redeemed and because the Lord knows the powerful influence of the woman, (maybe) that's why He set the order as He did....

Am I on or off base here?


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## Aveena (Apr 18, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Your post, along with MsHoney's follow-up, prompted me to think about this: as it applies to a woman in the role of a WIFE, this would apply not only in the church setting but at home, yes? Esp. per the bolded statement?
> 
> A wife should not have authority over her husband. A husband should not LET his wife RUN HIM.... Not to say that a woman cannot be of service to her husband through offering her perspective with honor and respect toward her husband, but that she has to approach decently and in order....
> 
> ...


 
This makes sense to me...  thanks


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## PaperClip (Apr 18, 2008)

Demi_DC said:


> This makes sense to me... thanks


 
Amen....

Here's how The Message says it:

1 Timothy 2


8-10Since prayer is at the bottom of all this, what I want mostly is for men to pray—not shaking angry fists at enemies but raising holy hands to God. *And I want women to get in there with the men in humility before God*, not primping before a mirror or chasing the latest fashions but doing something beautiful for God and becoming beautiful doing it.
 11-15*I don't let women take over and tell the men what to do.* They should study to be quiet and obedient along with everyone else. Adam was made first, then Eve; woman was deceived first—our pioneer in sin!—with Adam right on her heels. On the other hand, *her childbearing brought about salvation, reversing Eve.* But this salvation only comes to those who continue in faith, love, and holiness, gathering it all into maturity. You can depend on this.


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## divya (Apr 18, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Divya, I sincerely and graciously request that you "show your work", if you will, by sharing the greek form of pastor as you say it is...to inform our conversation, not to put you on the spot.
> 
> Vivmaiko, the Bible does not forbid women serving as pastors. And I amicably advise you to be careful about speaking against the Word of God. Because in a sense, it is speaking against the Holy Spirit, from whom the written/logos Word of God was inspired. We have to be careful that our foolish words don't turn against us. Thank God for a merciful Lord.
> 
> That's like me saying that I am insulted that the Bible says I can't have sex outside of marriage. (Example used to lighten the mood).



I'll have to bring on the books on this one. I'll be back.  Appreciate you looking it up online, although there are conflicting online sources regarding the definition of "pastor." Just run a general search and the translations and opinions vary...


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## divya (Apr 18, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Hey, Divya:
> 
> I went ahead and looked it up myself....
> 
> ...




RR, did you read the above link that you posted in its entirety? It supports my point that females are not to be pastors! 

Further down in the very same message it states...

_
Does this mean that there are female ministers in the Bible? Yes, it does. *Not pastors, not "local elders,"* not bosses, but true servants of God! Are they only meek and weak servants, destined only to wash dishes and iron suits? _http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/are-female-ministers-in-the-bible.html

The part that you pulled out was just one section of a message that states that women should not be pastors. and the different understandings of _diakonos_ depending on the situation. It clearly states that the general understanding does not include pastorship and local elder positions for women.


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## PaperClip (Apr 18, 2008)

divya said:


> RR, did you read the above link that you posted in its entirety? It supports my point that females are not to be pastors!
> 
> Further down in the very same message it states...
> 
> ...


 
I included the link to the entire article for all to review.

It is not clear to me how the author of the link supports that women cannot be pastors. In the case of Phoebe, she happened to not have the title of pastor but she was doing the role/function of pastoring, or if nothing else, ministering to the church at Cenchrea under the covering of Apostle Paul.

As I stated earlier, it does not appear to be out of order biblically for a male authority, e.g., bishop to ordain and appoint a woman to a pastorship, as he is her overseer as she pastors that church.


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## divya (Apr 19, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> I included the link to the entire article for all to review.
> 
> It is not clear to me how the author of the link supports that women cannot be pastors. In the case of Phoebe, she happened to not have the title of pastor but she was doing the role/function of pastoring, or if nothing else, ministering to the church at Cenchrea under the covering of Apostle Paul.
> 
> As I stated earlier, it does not appear to be out of order biblically for a male authority, e.g., bishop to ordain and appoint a woman to a pastorship, as he is her overseer as she pastors that church.



For me, the author explains it quite well, but we can agree to disagree.  This is an area where many Christians, even with denominations disagree.  As long as we are doing our best, I'm sure the Lord will accept our honest hearts, and whatever we need correction on will come here or in the Kingdom.


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## Caramela (Apr 19, 2008)

divya said:


> For me, the author explains it quite well, but we can agree to disagree.  This is an area where many Christians, even with denominations disagree.  *As long as we are doing our best, I'm sure the Lord will accept our honest hearts*, and whatever we need correction on will come here or in the Kingdom.



I'm not picking on you, Divya but a lot of people say something similar to this. This question isn't directe towards you but  anyone who wants to answer... Wouldn't doing our best mean doing what the scriptures say? And wouldn't having an honest heart mean following what God has commanded? 
I tend to find that many people want to "think" for God and say what he will do all the while blatantly disobeying his word.


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## divya (Apr 19, 2008)

Caramela said:


> I'm not picking on you, Divya but a lot of people say something similar to this. This question isn't directe towards you but  anyone who wants to answer... *Wouldn't doing our best mean doing what the scriptures say?*
> I tend to find that many people want to "think" for God and say what he will do all the while blatantly disobeying his word.



That's exactly what it means. However, it is important to understand that God often reveals the truth to people at different times and in different ways. The man or woman who lives in the middle of nowhere who is illiterate and speaks a language that the vast majority of the world will likely be reached by the Holy Spirit in a different way than you or me. That's why you cannot make the statement alone by itself. Thus my statement in its entirety...

*As long as we are doing our best, I'm sure the Lord will accept our honest hearts, and whatever we need correction on will come here or in the Kingdom.*


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## divya (Apr 19, 2008)

I encourage everyone to read the book *Searching the Scriptures*: Women's Ordination and Call to Biblical Fidelity by Samuel Koranteng-Pipim.  It is very good with Scriptural references all the way through.


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## Ms.Honey (Apr 19, 2008)

And still there are NO scriptures forbidding women from holding the office of Bishop, Deacon or Pastor. When God has forbidden ANYTHING he clearly states that it is forbidden. He does not lean towards, He does not hint nor does He imply. He is consistent, He changes not. 
  Like I said before pray to the Lord before going to your male authority and then ask your male authority what the Lords stance is on women holding these position. The Lord will give you the answer but you have to pray to Him first.  Otherwise you're liable to get that person's personal opinion which is irrelevant and which this thread is full of. If you pray to God first then you are guaranteed the truth, that is His promise to us. Now if one chooses not to do this then they need to consider why.
  It doesn't matter how may commentaries are for or against it. Remember that commentaries differ per religious affiliation or the lack thereof and there is no where in the bible where He says rely on commentaries.  What He does say for us as women is that if we have a question ask our husbands at home? Isn't this the very scripture that the whole discussion stemmed from? And for those of us that are single, doesn't the Lord say for us to go to the male who is our next line of authority? God is not the author of confusion and that is exactly what this and many threads like this are. I suppose that many of us have chosen not to ask that authority or have even rejected what that person has said.


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## divya (Apr 20, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> And still there are NO scriptures forbidding women from holding the office of Bishop, Deacon or Pastor. When God has forbidden ANYTHING he clearly states that it is forbidden. He does not lean towards, He does not hint nor does He imply. He is consistent, He changes not.
> Like I said before pray to the Lord before going to your male authority and then ask your male authority what the Lords stance is on women holding these position. The Lord will give you the answer but you have to pray to Him first.  Otherwise you're liable to get that person's personal opinion which is irrelevant and which this thread is full of. If you pray to God first then you are guaranteed the truth, that is His promise to us. Now if one chooses not to do this then they need to consider why.
> It doesn't matter how may commentaries are for or against it. Remember that commentaries differ per religious affiliation or the lack thereof and there is no where in the bible where He says rely on commentaries.  What He does say for us as women is that if we have a question ask our husbands at home? Isn't this the very scripture that the whole discussion stemmed from? And for those of us that are single, doesn't the Lord say for us to go to the male who is our next line of authority? God is not the author of confusion and that is exactly what this and many threads like this are. I suppose that many of us have chosen not to ask that authority or have even rejected what that person has said.



It's a matter of conviction. Secondly, please do not jump to conclusions. I, for one, can say that I prayed AND asked the male in the next line of authority - my father, who actually happens to an elder.  Thankfully, I am visiting home this weekend and he recommended the commentary that I shared here that rely on the Bible to explain these issues, and well as other books that are in his library. He has over 1,000 religious books and each one of them he has read, the Bible first of course. 

So yes, I can personally say that I have asked the authority and have accepted what he has said. He has given me evidence from the Bible itself. Honestly, I grew up in a home were we studied together as a family and with other Christian families.  There's never a day that I cannot go to my father and ask him about a religious issue.  He always directs me to the verses in the Bible and can over other books to explain as well. 

We ought to be careful not to assume how people's beliefs have come about on the forum.  One's opinion or rather personal beliefs are certainly important.  They are often shaped through reading, study, consulting the line of authority etc. The Bible tells us to study to show ourselves approved unto God.  It's through the careful study personally with the Lord and with others that we develop our beliefs.  The Lord did intend it that way.

Have a great day!


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## Ms.Honey (Apr 20, 2008)

Divya, you can quote me all you like I'm not addressing you any more I told you that. 
   As I said before and will say again pray to God for the answer *FIRST* and *THEN* go to your next male authority. It doesn't matter what the persons opinion is of what God says or how many books and commentaries they've read or written, those can be religiously affiliated opinions or the lack thereof and are totally and completely irrelevant. There are people who have done the same and have come up with a totally different conclusion. So what? I can go to many religious leaders and get differing opinions. Just because some denominations allow or do not allow women to be pastors proves that some have there own interpretation of the Word. The key is to pray to God *first* and *then* ask. *Jesus* is the Way, the Truth, AND the Life *not* your denomination. It is assinine to believe that your church is the only way to God and the truth and all others are wrong.


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## tffy2004 (Apr 20, 2008)

metamorfhosis said:


> Hello-
> 
> I am trying to understand this issue in the church. I attended a church where there was a female pastor but her husband was the Elder. I was a little torn because the Bible says that a woman should be "silent" in the church.
> 
> ...




After you have read all the scriptures that speak on this subject the answer is quite clear, there is no human reasoning needed. The Bible says whether or not women should be pastors.

As for what I _*think*_ about women bing pastors; it's not something I agree with. Just think about it, get out a pen and a piece of paper and write down all the other things that women are responsible for in the home and then try adding the title Pastor to the list under that add all the hard work and dedication that is required to lead as a Pastor.

Just don't make sense for a woman to add that title to her list from a thinking persons point of view and we know what the bible says on it so...........

Soon enough the Messiah will return and teach all the pure unadulterated truth on all matters. In the meantime thanks for the thought provoking thread​


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## divya (Apr 20, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> *Divya, you can quote me all you like I'm not addressing you any more I told you that. *
> As I said before and will say again pray to God for the answer *FIRST* and *THEN* go to your next male authority. It doesn't matter what the persons opinion is of what God says or how many books and commentaries they've read or written, those can be religiously affiliated opinions or the lack thereof and are totally and completely irrelevant. There are people who have done the same and have come up with a totally different conclusion. So what? I can go to many religious leaders and get differing opinions. Just because some denominations allow or do not allow women to be pastors proves that some have there own interpretation of the Word. The key is to pray to God *first* and *then* ask. *Jesus* is the Way, the Truth, AND the Life *not* your denomination. It is assinine to believe that your church is the only way to God and the truth and all others are wrong.



God bless you dear.


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## divya (Apr 20, 2008)

tffy2004 said:


> After you have read all the scriptures that speak on this subject the answer is quite clear, there is no human reasoning needed. *The Bible says whether or not women should be pastors.
> *
> As for what I _*think*_ about women bing pastors; it's not something I agree with. Just think about it, get out a pen and a piece of paper and write down all the other things that women are responsible for in the home and then try adding the title Pastor to the list under that add all the hard work and dedication that is required to lead as a Pastor.
> 
> ...



Amen...so true!


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## Nice & Wavy (Apr 20, 2008)

Some of ya'll are unbelievable...but, I digress

Asking this question again.....



> How many of you lead people to salvation? How many of you pray with people on a regular basis? How many of you counsel people who are having difficulties in their lives? How many of you minister to those who have lost a loved one? Are you there with them, helping them through their time of grief, with prayer and supplication? How many of you minister the Gospel to hundreds or thousands of people? Do you know how? If so, how many times have you done this and how many people gave their hearts to Jesus Christ after you share this Gospel? How many of you get up at 2, 3, 4am to go to someone's home to pray for them because their child just died, or some other type of horrific tragedy, or for a couple who are having abuse issues in the home and need help? How many of you listen, truly listen to those who are struggling with drugs and alcohol dependency, and then are able to help them along in their struggle? How many of you counsel the youth in their struggle with sex, pregnancy, diseases, etc.? How many of you help people with necessities for living: Food, clothing, shelter...on a weekly basis?
> 
> I can go on and on but I would really like to know.
> 
> ...


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## divya (Apr 20, 2008)

pearlygurl said:


> Non-demoninational...and we have women ministers.



Yes, my faith does have women pastors as well.  However, generally people are understanding of the fact that there people hold different views on the issue. The individual churches/divisions decide on whether or not it will be accepted. We are a movement, not denominational or non-denominational.


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## PaperClip (Apr 20, 2008)

tffy2004 said:


> After you have read all the scriptures that speak on this subject the answer is quite clear, there is no human reasoning needed. The Bible says whether or not women should be pastors.
> 
> As for what I _*think*_ about women bing pastors; it's not something I agree with. Just think about it, get out a pen and a piece of paper and *write down all the other things that women are responsible for in the home* and then try adding the title Pastor to the list under that add all the hard work and dedication that is required to lead as a Pastor.
> 
> ...


 
What about those women who may not (presently) have such certain responsibilities in the home (marital elitism in the church is ALIVE and WELL!)

What about women who are FUNCTIONING in the role of pastoring (in proper order and authority) WITHOUT the title?

What about women like Phebe and Priscilla in Romans 16, both operating with male covering (Phebe=Apostle Paul; Priscilla=Aquilla (her husband))?  When Apostle Paul is talking about them in Romans 16, he does not split the couple apart. He talks about them in their functions and roles TOGETHER:


 1I commend unto you *Phebe* our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

 2That *ye receive her in the Lord*, as becometh saints, and that *ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you*: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also. 

3*Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers* in Christ Jesus: 

4*Who have for my life laid down their own necks*: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.  
 5*Likewise greet the church that is in their house.* Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ. ​Look: Apostle Paul lists Priscilla first! That does not seem to be proper cultural order.... maybe it is by calling? 

Paul says that they BOTH laid down THEIR NECKS....So Priscilla is just standing on the sidelines? I think not. 

And look! It says in verse 5 "greet the church that is in THEIR house" (Priscilla and Aquila's house), yes? Aquila wasn't running that church on his own. Priscilla, the good wife and helpmeet she was, was CO-LABORING, or CO-PASTORING alongside her husband. And Paul gave them a shout-out for their laboring....

A woman can be a pastor under proper (male) covering. The Bible does not indicate otherwise. Or the contrary has yet to be presented here. And I'm quoting DIRECTLY from the KING JAMES VERSION!!! grin


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## tffy2004 (Apr 20, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> What about those women who may not (presently) have such certain responsibilities in the home (marital elitism in the church is ALIVE and WELL!)
> 
> What about women who are FUNCTIONING in the role of pastoring (in proper order and authority) WITHOUT the title?
> 
> ...



Ahh Ree Ree you always gettin on me 
Just kidding, I know it's with the utmost respect and love of God!!
Anywho, whether women have the title or not or are married or not the Bible says what it says and ain't no changin that. And I still personally don't think that women should be preachers/pastors. I know the Priscilla story she was helping her husband but if I remember correctly He was doing the teaching and not her. Of course she was laying down her neck by her accompanying her husband to help him out she was obviously showing that she was a believer too.


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## PaperClip (Apr 20, 2008)

tffy2004 said:


> Ahh Ree Ree you always gettin on me
> Just kidding, I know it's with the utmost respect and love of God!!
> Anywho, whether women have the title or not or are married or not the Bible says what it says and ain't no changin that. And I still personally don't think that women should be preachers/pastors. I know the Priscilla story she was helping her husband but if I remember correctly He was doing the teaching and not her. Of course she was laying down her neck by her accompanying her husband to help him out she was obviously showing that she was a believer too.


 
Full love and respect back atcha!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Once again, exactly WHERE does it say that women cannot PASTOR?

Why do we want to discount the service of these women?


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## Nice & Wavy (Apr 21, 2008)

I thought so....


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## tffy2004 (Apr 21, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Full love and respect back atcha!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1 Timothy 2:11-13

When someone says Pastor I picture a person who is over a congregation/church/is a spiritual leader, you know the person in the pulpit giving the sermons every Sunday. In order to be in that position if you are a women that means you are having authority over men right, unless you have a church that is for women only?

Depending on what someone thinks a Pastor or Preacher is then of course their view on this subject will be different.

I'm not discounting the service of the women in the bible, they did wonderful work, but they were not pastors or preachers or spiritual leaders of a church or congregation. My mother in law is a 'pastor' and that was her choice I don't love her any less, she is a grown woman and she makes her own choices. Like I said before when the Messiah returns he will teach us the truth on all matters.

I don't know what else to say


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## saved06 (Apr 21, 2008)

Women can be ministers but not heading a church....read about Miriam (in Exodus) the prophetess and Mary who saw Jesus after resurrection...they had a message but they weren't heading churches.


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## PaperClip (Apr 21, 2008)

tffy2004 said:


> 1 Timothy 2:11-13
> 
> When someone says Pastor I picture a person who is over a congregation/church/is a spiritual leader, you know the person in the pulpit giving the sermons every Sunday. In order to be in that position if you are a women that means you are having authority over men right, unless you have a church that is for women only?
> 
> ...


 
1 Timothy 2:11-13 links to 1 Corinthians 14, which speaks to WIVES DISRUPTING the SERVICE by asking questions to their husbands and DISRUPTING the minister. Again, this scripture does not forbid women to teach or preach IN PROPER ORDER AND AUTHORITY given to her BY HER MALE COVERING, e.g., HER HUSBAND or OTHER APPROPRIATE AUTHORITY (e.g., a bishop).

I'll even go as far as to say this: I REFUSE to believe that the Lord would punish a woman for pastoring and preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ (if that's what the Lord told her to do and she did so within proper authority).


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## Caramela (Apr 22, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> 1 Timothy 2:11-13 links to 1 Corinthians 14, which speaks to WIVES DISRUPTING the SERVICE by asking questions to their husbands and DISRUPTING the minister. Again, this scripture does not forbid women to teach or preach *IN PROPER ORDER AND AUTHORITY given to her BY HER MALE COVERING, e.g., HER HUSBAND or OTHER APPROPRIATE AUTHORITY *(e.g., a bishop).
> 
> .



Can you clarify this? Do you mean to say that only if a woman has a 
"male covering" can she "pastor"? What if a woman was a pastor but her husband was not? Would it be ok for her to pastor? Or if it were a single woman without a husband? Would it be ok for her to pastor?


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## PaperClip (Apr 22, 2008)

Caramela said:


> Can you clarify this? Do you mean to say that only if a woman has a
> "male covering" can she "pastor"? What if a woman was a pastor but her husband was not? Would it be ok for her to pastor? Or if it were a single woman without a husband? Would it be ok for her to pastor?


 
Not to throw off, but my thoughts on the questions you've asked here have been answered upthread....

>>What I mean by male covering is that a woman can be appointed to a pastorship by, for example, a bishop (a male, according to the Word). That pastor (male or female) oversees the day-to-day responsibilities of pastoring while that male covering oversees that pastor (male or female).

>>In the case of a husband and wife co-pastoring, they are both pastoring. The woman is pastoring alongside her husband; the husband is the headship of that pastoring couple, just like the husband is the head of the wife, and Jesus Christ is the head of them both.

>>Or, say the woman is called to pastor but the husband may not be. That woman/wife still has to come under submission of her husband. And so as that husband ALLOWS his wife to flow in her pastoral assignment, that husband is covering his wife.

>>Or, in the case of a single female: this goes back to first/second paragraph where a (single) woman who has been appointed to a pastorship by a bishop or a single woman who believes/knows the Lord has called her to pastor, she would seek out a male authority (e.g., a bishop) who would be willing to cover her pastorship.


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## Caramela (Apr 22, 2008)

I apologize. I must have missed that explanation. Interesting. Thank you.


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## Ms.Honey (Apr 23, 2008)

divya said:


> God bless you dear.


 
He does and always has.


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## Ms.Honey (Apr 23, 2008)

In Judges, Deborah was the *Judge* over Israel, *a position of authority over the men, correct?* The bible also mentions her husband in the same verse. *THAT* is the example of a woman in authority over men under the covering of her husband. 
 An unmarried female pastor would be under the covering of a male who is her next line of authority. When I've heard married women pastors or women who were elders in the church preach they always start by saying that they are preaching the sermon under the covering of their husbands. I have not been to every church so I don't know what all married elders say before preaching but that has always been my experience.


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