# can you or can you not lose your salvation?



## StarScream35 (Mar 8, 2012)

Does anyone know the true answer to this? It's hotly debated but what's the real answer. Anyone else ponders this?


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## LucieLoo12 (Mar 8, 2012)

Yes you can loose it. There is a doctrine "once saved always saved", but its not biblical, here are some scriptures.


*Matthew 24:13*
But he that shall *endure* unto the end, the same shall be saved.


Ezekiel 33:18
*18When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. *

Jude:
5I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, *having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. *



*Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God*




*I Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.* 





*Just a few scriptures*


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## sidney (Mar 8, 2012)

I know this is a "hot" topic but I would just like to say before anyone defaults to sharing what they have been taught, please provide scriptural backing.


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## blazingthru (Mar 8, 2012)

yes there are like so many scriptures that I could not list them all. here are a few. The main topic is IF. God will almost do anything for us IF we follow him. he made many promises but they began with IF. 

No one can take your salavation but you certainly can lose it. So you need to reaffirm you faith in God daily. its a daily thing not a once in a lifetime. 

Ezekiel 33:13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
 13 When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die. 
Revelation 3:5 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
 5 He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. 
1 John 1:7 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 
1 John 2:24 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
 24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 
Hebrews 10:38 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; 
AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM. 
John 15:6 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 
John 8:51 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.” 
Romans 11:22 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 
2 Peter 1:10 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
 10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 
Hebrews 3:14 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end, 
2 Timothy 2:12 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; 
If we [a]deny Him, He also will deny us; 
Hebrews 10:26 New American Standard Bible (NASB)


Christ or Judgment
 26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 
1 John 2:15 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
 Do Not Love the World
 15 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 
John 15:14 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
 14 You are My friends if you do what I command you. 
Romans 8:13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you [a]must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live


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## sidney (Mar 8, 2012)

Brighteyes35 said:


> Does anyone know the true answer to this? It's hotly debated but what's the real answer. Anyone else ponders this?



Great question.  I do not know the answer to this question but I have thought about it a lot and open to what anyone has anything to share.  This is the scripture that I ponder about...being blotted out of the book of life...

*Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot  out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name  before my Father and his angels   *


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## LucieLoo12 (Mar 8, 2012)

But there is a condition, we have to OVERCOME. Overcome what? The world, ourselves, our desires, our flesh....




sidney said:


> Great question. I do not know the answer to
> this question but I have thought about it a lot and open to what anyone has anything to share. This is the scripture that I ponder about...being blotted out of the book of life...
> 
> *Revelation 3:5*
> *He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels *


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## aribell (Mar 8, 2012)

I think the question is whether or not someone will endure through the end.  I can't say, but I can say that God tells us clearly who will not enter into the Kingdom (murderers, adulterers, fornicators, envious, idolatrous, etc. 1 Cor. 6:9)...so even if we believe ourselves to be "saved" it doesn't mean that whatever we do or however we live that we'll get in at the end.


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## LucieLoo12 (Mar 8, 2012)

When I was saying endure, Im not jus talking about someone just living life until they die. Endure means to suffer through, and tolerate. When you are truly serving God you will have to go through many things in this life. Alot of people give up because they can't handle the temptation, trials and tests. The OP asked can we loose our salvation, so she is speaking of someone of who has began the process of santification/salvation. If we endure this process will we make it, because through this process we will be cleansed from those things that are not of God.

*ETA:Ive have met people who have been cleansed from certain things but go snared again. Thats why Paul says be not entangled again in the yoke of bondage. You can become bound again. Thats why we have to stay free and endure this walk*


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## loolalooh (Mar 8, 2012)

This is very controversial topic.  Some people believe that once saved, always saved.  They base it on this Scripture:



> John 3:16 : “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,* that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.*”



Others believe that if the person does not receive eternal life, then the person wasn't really "saved" to begin with.

Which camp am I in?  I agree with the ladies above that one CAN lose one's salvation.  If we look deeper into John 3:16, we see that it says "those who believe" will have eternal life.  One can CHOOSE to believe today, but walk away from it all tomorrow.  One can be saved today, but not be saved tomorrow.  This is further reinforced by the Scripture Alicialynn86 provided: "Those who endure to end will be saved (Matthew 24:13)".  You have to endure to the end.  Additionally, we can look at:



> *Hebrews 6:4-6* It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[a] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.



This Scripture has been interpreted different ways, but I'm inclined to interpret it this way: a person who was once saved and has now fallen away.  Hence, the person lost his/her salvation.


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## CelineB (Mar 8, 2012)

^^^ Hebrews 6:7-8

 " Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned"


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## Poohbear (Mar 8, 2012)

I believe you can lose your salvation if you go back to your old belief of trying to rely on yourself and own good works rather than Christ alone for salvation:

*Hebrews 6*

 1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

 2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

 3And this will we do, if God permit.

 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

 7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

 8But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

 9But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

 10For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

 11And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

 12That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.


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## StarScream35 (Mar 8, 2012)

Interesting answers and I have heard both sides of the aruguments. I'm not sure what to believe. I have read the scriptures and everything is up for interpretation. Sometimes I find myself using the once saved always saved thing as a crutch to commit sin and this is what I want to avoid doing. It's an easy place to get into especially when you feel like you are missing out on things because of being a Christian.


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## Poohbear (Mar 8, 2012)

Brighteyes35 said:


> Interesting answers and I have heard both sides of the aruguments. I'm not sure what to believe. I have read the scriptures and everything is up for interpretation. *Sometimes I find myself using the once saved always saved thing as a crutch to commit sin and this is what I want to avoid doing.* It's an easy place to get into especially when you feel like you are missing out on things because of being a Christian.



Brighteyes35 - The *bolded* was me before the truth was revealed to me. It was miserable to think that I was once saved always saved and that it was "okay" to commit sin. Do not listen to the world or to the false doctrines that people are teaching these days. They want you to feel guilty of sin that Christ took the punishment for on the cross. They want you to rely on the "church" for their self glorification.  You must realize the law of death and how there is no hope in trying to "save" yourself physically by trying to do good works. As long as we live on this earth, we are going to sin. But the catch is that our physical actions have no bearing on our spiritual salvation. Once you see error in your belief, pray that the Holy Spirit reveal to you the truth of his Word.


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## LucieLoo12 (Mar 8, 2012)

@BrightEyes35

 Think of it like this.

Say you had a husband and yall been married for like 10 years. When yall first got married, he was soooo sweet. he cooked for you, complimented you,spent time with you etc. He was the best husband ever! Well down the road, he cheats on you, beats on you, spits on you, throws things at you, curses at you. He keeps doing it over and over and wont stop. You asked him to stop, but he wont.And you say "I want a divorce", He says "Why? Do you remember how I use to treat you, how nice i USE to be to you"...

Now what are you doing to say? I dont care about what you use to be me, look how you are treating me NOW? Look how you are disrespecting me NOW? 


This is how it is with God. It doesnt matter what we use to do, its about what we are doing NOW. When we die and go stand before Him in judgement, God isnt gont to say look at how we started its about how we finish.


Brighteyes35 said:


> Interesting answers and I have heard both sides of the aruguments. I'm not sure what to believe. I have read the scriptures and everything is up for interpretation. Sometimes I find myself using the once saved always saved thing as a crutch to commit sin and this is what I want to avoid doing. It's an easy place to get into especially when you feel like you are missing out on things because of being a Christian.


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## Galadriel (Mar 8, 2012)

Agreed ....




Alicialynn86 said:


> Yes you can loose it. There is a doctrine "once saved always saved", but its not biblical, here are some scriptures.
> 
> 
> *Matthew 24:13*
> ...


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## StarScream35 (Mar 8, 2012)

Alicialynn86 

That was on point! Thanks!

Poohbear

Thanks girlfriend.


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## blazingthru (Mar 8, 2012)

Hebrews 10:26  New American Standard Bible (NASB)


 26 For if we go on *sinning willfully *after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,


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## CoilyFields (Mar 8, 2012)

This is truly a hot topic.  What do I believe?

Once saved always saved. 

Due to the fact that I did not do anything to EARN my salvation (works), then conversely I cannot do anything to UNEARN it (works) *Eph 2:8-9.8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: * *9Not of works, lest any man should boast* 

-Jesus traded his righteousness for my unrighteousness once and for all (for sins past, present, and future) *2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.*

And Just as Jesus did not need to keep dying for our sins (as the priests in the OT had to continually offer sacrifices), we do not have to keep becoming saved all over again. *Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God*

-If we lost our salvation then God would not have made provision for us (believers) for when we do sin. *1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.*

If I can lose my salvation then I live in *fear *that if I sin, I no longer have eternal life. So since most of us sin regularly (in thought and deed) then at any moment we may die and heaven becomes...the luck of the draw? If I fornicated then got hit by a car and died then hell is my home? No! Becuase it is not dependant on my righteous acts. When I accepted Jesus I was adopted into his family forever. *Eph 4:30 **And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, by whom you are sealed unto the day of redemption.*

And we know that when we recieve salvation we also receieve the Holy Ghost. The Bible speaks of our sins grieving the holy spirit so dont think we can just sin willy nilly and get away with it. 

-As far as getting saved and continuing to live in sin...Paul asked the question, do we sin because grace abounds?  *Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?* Meaning should we sin just because we know we are sealed to the day of redemption due to Gods amazing grace? No way! God forbid! Believe me, we will have consequences for the sins we commit...here on earth and in heaven (there are different rewards). And also...being fearful of losing our salvation has not made most of us stop doing the sin...God doesnt tie us to him in fear but draws us in love. He is married to the backslider *Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you (Jer 3:14, KJV)*

-The Word often talks about not inheriting the kingdom due to different sinful acts...

*The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions  and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal 5:19-21) *

This is not referring to heaven or eternal life as the kingdom of God, but to the life we live here on earth. *Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.* 

-Salvation does not equal living right (if that were the case then anyone who lived a "good" life could go to heaven and wouldnt need Jesus). Salvation is being saved from the damnation we are owed due to our sins. Not because we earned it...but simply because God is so gracious that he knew the ONLY way to guarantee our place in heaven was to let us borrow Jesus' righteousness-cause even our rightousness is as filthy rags *Isaiah 64:6 and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags*. Even our sanctification and holiness (trying to live right) is not good enough to secure salvation.

So I do not believe that one who truly believes in Jesus as savior can then lose that salvation. There is a whole heap of things we are not held accountable for once we are saved...THAT is sanctification, sinning less, perfecting our faith. But lack thereof does not mean we are no longer saved. Now I will say this...if a person continues to live a life dedicated to sin after they have confessed Christ then it is possible that they did not TRULY accept him into their hearts (did not recieve salvation in the first place). But this is something that is only known by the person and God. Becuase only He knows the heart for real for real.

I don't expect everyone to agree with that but it is what I understand the Word to say, what we have been taught in my Church, and what I truly believe based on the scriptures.


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## loolalooh (Mar 8, 2012)

These Scriptures are interesting. I guess it really comes down to interpretation. 



CoilyFields said:


> This is truly a hot topic. What do I believe?
> 
> Once saved always saved.
> 
> ...


 
What I get from Eph 2:8-9.8: Salvation is a gift from God.

What I get from 2 Cor 5:21: Jesus took up our sins so that we may be made right with God. Salvation is a gift from God.

I agree: A gift is not earned (by works). Salvation is given to us. 

Here is where I veer off: We have the option (via free will) to reject or return the gift of salvation. A Christian who converts to atheism has "returned" his/her gift of salvation. (Some may argue whether the Christian was really saved to begin with.)

EDITED: Had to meditate on Hebrews 10.


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## sidney (Mar 9, 2012)

I prayed about this thread last night and I believe God shared a word with me in a dream.  I will try to post it later today.


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## Rainbow Dash (Mar 9, 2012)

Yes, you can lose your salvation but* it is your choice to do it*. Sin will separate us from God. If we choose falsehood over truth, then yes. 

In society and *even on this forum*, we have Christians that are soo worried about how they are perceived that they won't stand up and tell people the truth. 

*I believe that doctrines like this are birthed out of compromise. We don't want to offend anyone with the Truth or the whole counsel of God that we come up with this "oh it's okay" doctrine. *

Well I'm sorry I'm not that kind. If I am walking in error, I would want Christians to tell me the truth. If my soul is in danger, then Christians stop being scared to tell folks the truth.

*Jesus told the truth and look at what they did to Him.*

*Paul and the other disciples told the truth and look at what happened to them.*

*When will we stop being so worried about us and worry about the souls of others?*

He that endures to the end will be saved, Paul had to make his flesh a slave so that he would not be disqualified. 

As long as we walk with Christ in accordance to the what is true concerning Him and the Word, then we are saved.

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall *depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils*; 1 Tim 4:1

*Now these people were once apart of the faith, they were once saved had departed and gave into deception. *

*So run from that once saved always saved. We have to continue to examine ourselves, sin is deceitful.*


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## loolalooh (Mar 9, 2012)

This is a continuation of what blazingthru posted. We cannot continue crucifying Christ once we have become saved:

HEBREWS 10
6Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins. 27 There is only the terrible sins. There is only the terrible expectation of God’s judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies. 28 For anyone who refused to enemies For anyone who refused to obey the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 *Just think how or three witnesses. Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us. *


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## Poohbear (Mar 9, 2012)

CoilyFields - The problem with the "once saved, always saved" doctrine is that no one is truly saved _yet_. Check out these verses in the bible:

*Matthew 24:13*
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

*Philippians 2:12-13*
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Obtaining salvation is all about faith. It has nothing to do with works. As long as you do not sin wilfully then you shall be saved in the end. If you do sin wilfully, then you lose your salvation because you are not relying on Christ who died on the cross for the punishment of our sins. We cannot take credit for our salvation. Our righteousness is but filthy rags. 




CoilyFields said:


> This is truly a hot topic.  What do I believe?
> 
> Once saved always saved.
> 
> ...


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## alive (Mar 9, 2012)

great thread, Brighteyes35. I think everyone has made really good points. 

I don't know the answer and honestly, I don't think the answer makes a difference either way. I just want to hold on to my faith, live a life that God can be proud of, and make it to heaven. The answer to this question doesn't change any of that for me.


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## StarScream35 (Mar 9, 2012)

Yall are some strong ladies and you have backed your points up. I guess it boils down to this. Whether of not you can lose your salvation shouldn't matter. What should matter is your love for Christ and the need to wanna please him at all cost and be totally be disgusted by worldly things. You might slip up here and there, but your love for Christ will make you drop to your knees and ask for forgiveness.


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## makeupgirl (Mar 9, 2012)

*Question: "Once saved always saved?"

Answer: *Once a person is saved are they always saved? When people come to know Christ as their Savior, they are brought into a relationship with God that guarantees their salvation as eternally secure. Numerous passages of Scripture declare this fact. (a) Romans 8:30 declares, "And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified." This verse tells us that from the moment God chooses us, it is as if we are glorified in His presence in heaven. There is nothing that can prevent a believer from one day being glorified because God has already purposed it in heaven. Once a person is justified, his salvation is guaranteed - he is as secure as if he is already glorified in heaven.

(b) Paul asks two crucial questions in Romans 8:33-34 "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died more than that, who was raised to life - is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us." Who will bring a charge against God's elect? No one will, because Christ is our advocate. Who will condemn us? No one will, because Christ, the One who died for us, is the one who condemns. We have both the advocate and judge as our Savior.

(c) Believers are born again (regenerated) when they believe (John 3:3; Titus 3:5). For a Christian to lose his salvation, he would have to be un-regenerated. The Bible gives no evidence that the new birth can be taken away. (d) The Holy Spirit indwells all believers (John 14:17; Romans 8:9) and baptizes all believers into the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13). For a believer to become unsaved, he would have to be "un-indwelt" and detached from the Body of Christ.

(e) John 3:15 states that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will "have eternal life." If you believe in Christ today and have eternal life, but lose it tomorrow, then it was never "eternal" at all. Hence if you lose your salvation, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error. (f) For the most conclusive argument, I think Scripture says it best itself, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:38-39). Remember the same God who saved you is the same God who will keep you. Once we are saved we are always saved. Our salvation is most definitely eternally secure!


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## makeupgirl (Mar 9, 2012)

*Question: "Can a Christian lose salvation?"

Answer: *Before this question is answered, the term “Christian” must be defined. A “Christian” is not a person who has said a prayer, or walked down an aisle, or been raised in a Christian family. While each of these things can be a part of the Christian experience, they are not what “makes” a Christian. A Christian is a person who has, by faith, received and fully trusted in Jesus Christ as the only Savior (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9).

So, with this definition in mind, can a Christian lose salvation? Perhaps the best way to answer this crucially important question is to examine what the Bible says occurs at salvation, and to study what losing salvation would therefore entail. Here are a few examples:

A Christian is a new creation. “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” (2 Corinthians 5:17). This verse speaks of a person becoming an entirely new creature as a result of being “in Christ.” For a Christian to lose salvation, the new creation would have to be canceled and reversed.

A Christian is redeemed. “For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect” (1 Peter 1:18-19). The word “redeemed” refers to a purchase being made, a price being paid. For a Christian to lose salvation, God Himself would have to revoke His purchase that He paid for with the precious blood of Christ.

A Christian is justified. “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 5:1). To “justify” means to “declare righteous.” All those who receive Jesus as Savior are “declared righteous” by God. For a Christian to lose salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and “un-declare” what He had previously declared.

A Christian is promised eternal life. “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16). Eternal life is a promise of eternity (forever) in heaven with God. God promises, “Believe and you will have eternal life.” For a Christian to lose salvation, eternal life would have to be taken away. If a Christian is promised to live forever, how then can God break this promise by taking away eternal life?

A Christian is guaranteed glorification. “And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified” (Romans 8:30). As we learned in Romans 5:1, justification is declared at the moment of faith. According to Romans 8:30, glorification is guaranteed for all those whom God justifies. Glorification refers to a Christian receiving a perfect resurrection body in heaven. If a Christian can lose salvation, then Romans 8:30 is in error, because God could not guarantee glorification for all those whom He predestines, calls, and justifies.

Many more illustrations of what occurs at salvation could be shared. Even these few make it abundantly clear that a Christian cannot lose salvation. Most, if not all, of what the Bible says happens to us when we receive Jesus Christ as Savior would be invalidated if salvation could be lost. Salvation cannot be reversed. A Christian cannot be un-newly created. Redemption cannot be undone. Eternal life cannot be lost and still be considered eternal. If a Christian can lose salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and change His mind—two things that Scripture tells us God never does.

The most frequent objections to the belief that a Christian cannot lose salvation are 1) What about those who are Christians and continually live an immoral lifestyle? 2) What about those who are Christians but later reject the faith and deny Christ? The problem with these two objections is the phrase “who are Christians.” The Bible declares that a true Christian will not live a continually immoral lifestyle (1 John 3:6). The Bible declares that anyone who departs the faith is demonstrating that he never truly was a Christian (1 John 2:19). Therefore, neither objection is valid. Christians do not continually live immoral lifestyles, nor do they reject the faith and deny Christ. Such actions are proof that they were never redeemed. 

No, a Christian cannot lose salvation. Nothing can separate a Christian from God’s love (Romans 8:38-39). Nothing can remove a Christian from God’s hand (John 10:28-29). God is both willing and able to guarantee and maintain the salvation He has given us. Jude 24-25, “To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy—to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.”


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## CoilyFields (Mar 9, 2012)

Poohbear said:


> @CoilyFields - The problem with the "once saved, always saved" doctrine is that *no one is truly saved yet*. Check out these verses in the bible:
> 
> *Matthew 24:13*
> But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
> ...


 
Poohbear

This is definately where we differ (the bolded). Salvation is instant...upon belief and confession. And we sin willfully contantly, in thought and deed. That is why we have to rely on Christs' righteousness rather than our own to gurantee our eternal life. 


May I ask? Is your understanding something that is taught at your church? I ask only because this is a subject that we never really discussed at my church growing up and I only learned it when I came to my present church.


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## LucieLoo12 (Mar 9, 2012)

@health&Hair28 this post was edifying 


The devil and his followers was kicked out of heaven for their rebellion and sin, so we believe we can just live any type of way and make it in??


*Peter 4:17-18*

*17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? **18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?*


God isnt just letting any and everybody in, we got to be holy and righteous to make it in




Health&hair28 said:


> Yes, you can lose your salvation but* it is your choice to do it*. Sin will separate us from God. If we choose falsehood over truth, then yes.
> 
> In society and *even on this forum*, we have Christians that are soo worried about how they are perceived that they won't stand up and tell people the truth.
> 
> ...


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## Poohbear (Mar 9, 2012)

CoilyFields

My definition of sinning wilfully is different than yours... will have a response later in regards to this....


By the way, I do not go to "church" and do not feel that you need to go to a "church" in order to be saved or be right with God. I haven't consistently been to a church since July 2010. 

Before I stopped going to "church", I was always taught "once saved, always saved", which I no longer believe in its concepts anymore. I went to a Baptist church.




CoilyFields said:


> Poohbear
> 
> This is definately where we differ (the bolded). Salvation is instant...upon belief and confession. And we sin willfully contantly, in thought and deed. That is why we have to rely on Christs' righteousness rather than our own to gurantee our eternal life.
> 
> ...


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## makeupgirl (Mar 9, 2012)

So now here is my commentary.

No, you cannot lose your salvation.

Why?  Born again believers have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  Why would God indwell his Spirit in us, if he knew we would lose it?

Why did Paul say that "Therefore if any man _be_ in Christ, _he is_ a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)

Ezekiel 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 

Romans 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Romans 8:9-11, 15-17, 28-30

*9*You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. *10*But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. *11*And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 

*15*For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship.g And by him we cry, _“Abba,_h Father.” *16*The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. *17*Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. 

*28*And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,j whok have been called according to his purpose. *29*For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. *30*And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. 

When you have a relationship with Christ, it's forever.  We cannot lose that and if you do lose it, then you never had it to begin with.  We can only examine ourselves when our salvation is being questioned, even that of ourselves.  Ask yourself this, is Satan planted those doubts in you? or are you seriously unsure?  

Then ask youself this, do you believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins, was buried, and rosed again?  Do you believe that Jesus is God?  Do you believe that he became flesh to die for us?  Did you confess that Jesus is Lord, confess that you are a sinner in need of forgiveness?  Did you ask Jesus to be your Lord and Savior?  If the answer is yes, then congrats you are a believer in Christ.  You are apart of the Body/the Bride of Christ.  You cannot lose your salvation, because you have a relationship with Christ.  

We can get out of fellowship but we cannot lose our sonship.  We have 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness"   He knew we was going to still mess up.  Even though we are no longer sinners, we still have that sinful nature in us until either we die or until we're raptured.  We not perfect as humans, we're only perfect in Christ.  There is no such thing as a good person or a righteous person.  Romans 3:23 said for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God and in the same chapter it also says that there is none righteous, no not one.  

So if anyone thinks that we can literally hold on to our salvation by our works?  Then you are falling for one of Satan's tactics.  

Like all doctrines out there, "the once saved, always saved" doctrine has taken one verse and stuff was added so that man took credit for it but say it was in the will of God.  God's word is final.  He said we could never lose our relationship with him.  He spoke the word into existance.  He inspired men (that he has chosen) to write his word.  He is God all by himself, he didn't need man to write a doctrine to confirm what was already written in the infallible word of God.  

Point is, no you cannot lose your salvation once you have accepted Christ into your life as Savior and Lord.  You have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which is permanant, forever, eternal, everlasting, etc.  If you mess up, own it, confess it to God and then move on.  He remembers it no more after confession.  Not to say that we should keep doing what you're doing.  No, you'll grieve the Holy Spirit when you refuse to listen to him.  He leads and guide our footsteps and I'm sure, if you are in Christ, you are feeling a conviction when you have sinned against God.  If you have a problem with a recurring vice such as cussing and no matter how much you confess that you're sorry you keep doing it, then ask him for help.  Tell him that you're struggling and you need help.  Do not think you can live your life in Christ on your own.  

Now, I'm going back to work and drink some more Mtn Dew code red.


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## Rainbow Dash (Mar 9, 2012)

For you ladies that believe in once saved always saved. Please explain what 1 Timothy 4:1 tells you.  If you walk with Christ and live according to His will then yes but what about 1 Timothy 4:1.

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall *depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils*; 1 Tim 4:1

*Now these people were once apart of the faith, they were once saved had departed and gave into deception. *


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## makeupgirl (Mar 9, 2012)

This commentary on 1 Tim 4:1 from this site http://bible.cc/1_timothy/4-1.htm

Now the Spirit - Evidently the Holy Spirit; the Spirit of inspiration. It is not quite certain, from this passage, whether the apostle means to say that this was a revelation "then" made to him, or whether it was a well-understood thing as taught by the Holy Spirit. He himself elsewhere refers to this same prophecy, and John also more than once mentions it; compare 2 Thessalonians 2; 1 John 2:18; Revelation 20:1-15. From 2 Thessalonians 2:5, it would seem that this was a truth which had before been communicated to the apostle Paul, and that he had dwelt on it when he preached the gospel in Thessalonica. There is no improbability, however, in the supposition that so important a subject was communicated directly by the Holy Spirit to others of the apostles. 
Speaketh expressly - In express words, ῥητῶς rētōs. It was not by mere hints, and symbols, and shadowy images of the future; it was in an open and plain manner - in so many words. The object of this statement seems to be to call the attention of Timothy to it in an emphatic manner, and to show the importance of attending to it. 
That in the latter times - Under the last dispensation, during which the affairs of the world would close; see the notes on Hebrews 1:2. It does not mean that this would occur "just before" the end of the world, but that it would take place during "that last dispensation," and that the end of the world would not happen until this should take place; see the notes on 2 Thessalonians 2:3. 
Some shall depart from the faith - The Greek word here - ἀποστήσονται apostēsontai - is that from which we have derived the word "apostatize," and would be properly so rendered here. The meaning is, that they would "apostatize" from the belief of the truths of the gospel. It does not mean that, as individuals, they would have been true Christians; but that there would be a departure from the great doctrines which constitute the Christian faith. The ways in which they would do this are immediately specified, showing what the apostle meant here by departing from the faith. They would give heed to seducing spirits, to the doctrines of devils, etc. The use of the word "some," here τινες tines - does not imply that the number would be small. The meaning is, that "certain persons" would thus depart, or that "there would be" an apostasy of the kind here mentioned, in the last days. From the parallel passage in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, it would seem that this was to be an extensive apostasy. 
Giving heed to seducing spirits - Rather than to the Spirit of God. It would be a part of their system to yield to those spirits that led astray. The spirits here referred to are any that cause to err, and the most obvious and natural construction is to refer it to the agency of fallen spirits. Though it "may" apply to false teachers, yet, if so, it is rather to them as under the influence of evil spirits. This may be applied, so far as the phraseology is concerned, to "any" false teaching; but it is evident that the apostle had a specific apostasy in view - some great "system" that would greatly corrupt the Christian faith; and the words here should be interpreted with reference to that. It is true that people in all ages are prone to give heed to seducing spirits; but the thing referred to here is some grand apostasy, in which the characteristics would be manifested, and the doctrines held, which the apostle proceeds immediately to specify; compare 1 John 4:1.


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## makeupgirl (Mar 9, 2012)

cont'

And doctrines of devils - Greek, "Teachings of demons - διδασκαλίαις δαιμωνίων didaskaliais daimōniōn. This may either mean teachings "respecting" demons, or teachings "by" demons. The particular sense must be determined by the connection. Ambiguity of this kind in the construction of words, where one is in the genitive case, is not uncommon; compare John 15:9-10; John 21:15. Instances of the construction where the genitive denotes the "object," and should be translated "concerning," occur in Matthew 9:25; "The gospel of the kingdom," i. e., concerning the kingdom; Matthew 10:1; "Power of unclean spirits," i. e., over or concerning unclean spirits; so, also, Acts 4:9; Romans 16:15; 2 Corinthians 1:5; Ephesians 3:1; Revelation 2:13. Instances of construction where the genitive denotes the "agent," occur in the following places: Luke 1:69, "A horn of salvation," i. e., a horn which produces or causes salvation; John 6:28; Romans 3:22; 2 Corinthians 4:10; Ephesians 4:18; Colossians 2:11. Whether the phrase here means that, in the apostasy, they would give heed to doctrines "respecting" demons, or to doctrines which demons "taught," cannot, it seems to me, be determined with certainty. If the previous phrase, however, means that they would embrace doctrines taught by evil spirits, it can hardly be supposed that the apostle would immediately repeat the same idea in another form; and then the sense would be, that one characteristic of the time referred to would be the prevalent teaching "respecting" demons. They would "give heed to," or embrace, some special views respecting demons. The word here rendered "devils" is δαιμονία daimonia - "demons." This word, among the Greeks, denoted the following things: 

(1) A god or goddess, spoken of the pagan gods; compare in New Testament, Acts 17:18. 

(2) a divine being, where no particular one was specified, the agent or author of good or evil fortune; of death, fate, etc. In this sense it is often used in Homer. 

(3) the souls of people of the golden age, which dwelt unobserved upon the earth to regard the actions of men, and to defend them - tutelary divinities, or geniuses - like that which Socrates regarded as his constant attendant. Xen. Mem. 4. 8. 1. 5; Apol. Soc. 4. See "Passow." 

(4) to this may be added the common use in the New Testament, where the word denotes a demon in the Jewish sense - a bad spirit, subject to Satan, and under his control; one of the host of fallen angels - commonly, but not very properly rendered "devil" or "devils." These spirits were supposed to wander in desolate places, Matthew 12:43; compare Isaiah 13:21; Isaiah 34:14; or they dwell in the air, Ephesians 2:2. They were regarded as hostile to mankind, John 8:44; as able to utter pagan oracles, Acts 16:17; as lurking in the idols of the pagan, 1 Corinthians 10:20; Revelation 9:20. They are spoken of as the authors of evil, James 2:19; compare Ephesians 6:12, and as having the power of taking "possession" of a person, of producing diseases, or of causing mania, as in the case of the demoniacs, Luke 4:33; Luke 8:27; Matthew 17:18; Mark 7:29-30; and often elsewhere. The doctrine, therefore, which the apostle predicted would prevail, might, "so far as the word used is concerned," be either of the following: 

(1) Accordance with the prevalent notions of the pagan respecting false gods; or a falling into idolatry similar to that taught in the Grecian mythology. It can hardly be supposed, however, that he designed to say that the common notions of the pagan would prevail in the Christian church, or that the worship of the pagan gods "as such" would be set up there. 

(2) an accordance with the Jewish views respecting demoniacal possessions and the power of exorcising them. If this view should extensively prevail in the Christian church, it would be in accordance with the language of the prediction. 

(3) accordance with the prevalent pagan notions respecting the departed spirits of the good and the great, who were exalted to the rank of demi-gods, and who, though invisible, were supposed still to exert an important influence in favor of mankind. To these beings, the pagan rendered extraordinary homage. They regarded them as demi-gods. They supposed that they took a deep interest in human affairs. They invoked their aid. They set apart days in honor of them. They offered sacrifices, and performed rites and ceremonies to propitiate their favor. They were regarded as a sort of mediators or intercessors between man and the superior divinities. If these things are found anywhere in the Christian church, they may be regarded as a fulfillment of this prediction, for they were not of a nature to be foreseen by any human sagacity. Now it so happens, that they are in fact found in the Papal communion, and in a way that corresponds fairly to the meaning of the phrase, as it would have been understood in the time of the apostle. 

There is, "first," the worship of the virgin and of the saints, or the extraordinary honors rendered to them - corresponding almost entirely with the reverence paid by the pagan to the spirits of heroes or to demi-gods. The saints are supposed to have extraordinary power with God, and their aid is implored as intercessors. The virgin Mary is invoked as "the mother of God," and as having power still to command her Son. The Papists do not, indeed, offer the same homage to the saints which they do to God, but they ask their aid; they offer prayer to them. The following extracts from the catechism of Dr. James Butler, approved and recommended by Dr. Kenrick, "Bishop of Philadelphia," expresses the general views of Roman Catholics on this subject. "Question: How do Catholics distinguish between the honor they give to God, and the honor they give to the saints, when they pray to God and the saints?


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## CelineB (Mar 9, 2012)

This is a very heated topic for everyone but the answer belongs to God. Please ask him and he will answer.

This is what He told me:

-Salavation is only at the end not now. What we call " saved" is when God "touched or called " us to know the Truth.  When you respond to this call and what you do with this Thruth will determine if you will be saved or not. 

Christians say they are saved but in thruth they are not. The are choosen, they are called like Jesus called is disciples. But Salvation is at the end. 
There is however a big difference between "called" people and worldly people.
not all called people will make it at the end. 
Only those who overcome and endure and "self die" MIGHT make it.

-Not All christians who confessed the name of Jesus will have eternal life.

-You are not saved if you continue Willfully sinning after receiving the knowledge of Truth 

-Nobody knows if they are saved or not; only He knows.

-We need to endure untill the end to be SAVEd.

-We need to constantly die from flesh untill the end to be saved.

-God knows us through our hearts.

-If  we have a faithful heart in God through Jesus and constantly pursue salvation, God will help us through this process.

ALL THE ABOVES ARE ONLY POSSIBLE THROUGH GRACE GIVEN BY GOD.

Matt 24: 13  " But he that ENDURE unto the end the same shall be saved"
2 Tim 2:12 " If we endure, we will also reign with Him, If we disown him, he will also disown us"

Luke 14:24 The parable of the great Banquet " I tell you, not one of these men who were invited will get a taste of my banquet"


The devil is a LIAR. He is telling christians that all they have to do is confess the name of Jesus and have salvation while they are still following the flesh. 
Jesus brings savaltion but we are still commanded to carry out cross and follow HIM. Following Jesus is not easy but it can be done. It is done through Grace every day of the rest of our lifes. It does not mean we are not sinning but HIS GRACE helps us to overcome sin, sin does not control us anymore, we are in charge through Jesus and the Holy spirit. 

 Please don't ignore all these verses that are posted in this thread. We cannot just ignore that God SAYS Rev3:5 "HE who OVERCOME will be clothed in white garments"

OR

" Sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery...will not inherit the kingdom of God"

Thanks,
C


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## CelineB (Mar 9, 2012)

CoilyFields said:


> This is truly a hot topic. What do I believe?
> 
> Once saved always saved.
> 
> ...


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## loolalooh (Mar 9, 2012)

Choisie said:


> This is a very heated topic for everyone but the answer belongs to God. Please ask him and he will answer.
> 
> This is what He told me:
> 
> ...



I wholeheartedly agree with this post.


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## loolalooh (Mar 9, 2012)

*Matthew 7:21-23
New King James Version (NKJV)
I Never Knew You*



> 21 “*Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven*. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 *And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me*, you who practice lawlessness!’


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## Rainbow Dash (Mar 9, 2012)

^^^This scripture right here shakes me.

These are not the words I want to hear. 

Lord help me stay close to you and stay in your will.


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## loolalooh (Mar 9, 2012)

Health&hair28 said:


> ^^^This scripture right here shakes me.
> 
> These are not the words I want to hear.
> 
> Lord help me stay close to you and stay in your will.



I know right.  It sends shivers down my spine.


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## loolalooh (Mar 9, 2012)

*Luke 9......*



> 23 Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple *must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.* 24 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but *whoever loses their life for me will save it*.


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## makeupgirl (Mar 9, 2012)

Choisie said:


> This is a very heated topic for everyone but the answer belongs to God. Please ask him and he will answer.
> 
> This is what He told me:
> 
> ...


 
So, please show the scriptures that state that Salvation will be at the end.  Because this is what Paul says in 

Romans 10:9-10 
"9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 
 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

John 3:16 
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son; that whosoever believeth in him, shall not perish but have everlasting life"

John 14:6
"I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me."

Today is the day of salvation, now is the acceptable time.  We're in the dispensation of grace as of now.  IF our salvation is at the end, then why does Jesus instructs us to go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit?  If our salvation is at the end, then why did Jesus promised and sent us the comforter (the Holy Spirit) after his accession back to heaven?  If our salvation is at the end, why do those that believe in him now have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?  

Remember, Satan knows his time is almost up and dude wants to send as many people with him to that lake of fire.  He can also disguises himself as the angel of light according to 2 Corinthians 11:14 KJV (And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.)  Dude is a trickster and got some serious issues.  

We're saved by grace.  Salvation is a free gift.  I personally don't know how to work to get saved because Im not a good person.  There is no such thing as a righteous person according to Romans 3:10"there is none righteous, no not one"  Nobody but Jesus is righteous, because he was sinless.  

If anything those who have claim to have done this or that in the name of Jesus but does not have a relationship with him; he will say "depart from me, I never knew you" (man that is going to be a sad day for them)  He said this himself in Matt 7:21-23.   Why he going to turn them away?  because they didn't do what he asked them to do.  Believe in me.  That's all he ask.  He didn't say work this or that.  Give this or that.  Taste this or that.  He said believe.  He that believeth on me.  Keyword is believe.  How does one believe?  It's by faith.  

Ok breaky over...


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## CoilyFields (Mar 9, 2012)

makeupgirl said:


> So, please show the scriptures that state that Salvation will be at the end. Because this is what Paul says in
> 
> Romans 10:9-10
> "9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
> ...


 

^^^This! Salvation is not EARNED by our lack of sin.

We did not aquire it by works so Im at a loss as to why it is believed that we keep it by works? 

In those last days when Jesus says depart from me because he never knew them...thats because they never really believed in their hearts. *MAtthew 15:8 “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;*


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## loolalooh (Mar 9, 2012)

CoilyFields said:


> ^^^This! Salvation is not EARNED by our lack of sin.
> 
> We did not aquire it by works so Im at a loss as to *why it is believed that we keep it by works? *
> 
> In those last days when Jesus says depart from me because he never knew them...thats because they never really believed in their hearts. *MAtthew 15:8 “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;*



It is not about doing works to keep salvation.  I can't speak for others thoughts on this, but I posted earlier that because we have free will, we can *choose to reject or even return* this gift of salvation.  The obvious example is the Christian who turns to atheism.  The more complex example is the Christian who, not believing he/she has been made a new person, returns to sinning all willy nilly.

When I think "works to keep" salvation, I think depending on one's own ability to adhere to law rather than depending on Jesus to keep us from sinning.  

Just because we were given a gift, does not mean we cannot return it.  To accept the gift of salvation is to accept all that comes with it ... including breaking from the power of sin.


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## makeupgirl (Mar 9, 2012)

CoilyFields said:


> ^^^This! Salvation is not EARNED by our lack of sin.
> 
> We did not aquire it by works so Im at a loss as to why it is believed that we keep it by works?
> 
> In those last days when Jesus says depart from me because he never knew them...thats because they never really believed in their hearts. *MAtthew 15:8 “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;*


 
It could be one or 2 things.  Satan has planted that seed of doubt in the person to believe that they must work to get into heaven or the person has read a doctrine that makes sense to them vs. what the bible actually says.  

Satan definitely at work and I pray that we as the body of Christ keep spreading his gospel.


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## loolalooh (Mar 9, 2012)

Ladies, I've got to run.  I'll be back later.  To those who say "once saved, always saved":

The Scripture you have quoted underlines this: "Those who believe (i.e., truly believe), will be saved".

That's it.  *Where in Scripture does it say those who stop believing are still saved?  Some have quoted Scripture suggesting otherwise.*

I'll be back later ...


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## loolalooh (Mar 9, 2012)

Also, Scripture please: *Where does it define that depending on Jesus to keep us from sinning equates to "works"?*


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## CelineB (Mar 9, 2012)

CoilyFields said:


> ^^^This! Salvation is not EARNED by our lack of sin.
> 
> We did not aquire it by works so Im at a loss as to why it is believed that we keep it by works?
> 
> In those last days when Jesus says depart from me because he never knew them...thats because they never really believed in their hearts. *MAtthew 15:8 “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;*


 
Nobody said salvation is by works. Faith without work is dead. We need grace to have salvation. 
Many people say "I am saved" but how do they know that?
Only God knows. the works come by walking with Jesus every day for the rest of our lifes.
How do we even kow we truly have God's grace?
God told Paul that his grace is enough for him but he was still walking with Jesus everyday.

I said salvation is at end because:

-Many poeple who believe that they are saved will not enter the kindom of God.

-Some people who don't even hope will make it.

It is only at the end that we will know not now.

We all hope to make it.

Blessings


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## LucieLoo12 (Mar 9, 2012)

People always misunderstand these scriptures. My answers are in red




makeupgirl said:


> Romans 10:9-10
> "9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
> 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
> 
> ...


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## LucieLoo12 (Mar 9, 2012)

*I keep hearing people say "All you have to do is accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior", that is not biblical. You can not accept God, He has to accept you. *

*Repeatedly in the bible it speaks of us having to be accepted OF HIM..*


*2 Corinthians 5:9*
Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be *accepted* of him.
*Romans 14:18*
For he that in these things serveth Christ is *acceptable* to God, and approved of men.
*1 Peter 2:5*
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, *acceptable* to God by Jesus Christ.
*Romans 12:1*
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, *acceptable* unto God, which is your reasonable service.
*Acts 10:35*
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is *accepted* with him.


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## Poohbear (Mar 9, 2012)

loolalooh said:


> Also, Scripture please: *Where does it define that depending on Jesus to keep us from sinning equates to "works"?*



loolalooh 

I haven't seen a scripture for your question.

However, I believe that we must depend on Jesus to save us from sin rather than depend on ourselves to stop sinning.  Depending on ourselves to stop sinning, to sin less, or to do things to try to please God would be considered "works". Good "works" does not save us nor does it make us any more right with God. We can't earn salvation. Going in front of a church and saying you believe in Jesus now does not save you. Only faith in Jesus Christ can save us.


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## Laela (Mar 9, 2012)

sidney ... I look forward to it.... 





sidney said:


> I prayed about this thread last night and I believe God shared a word with me in a dream.  I will try to post it later today.


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## CelineB (Mar 9, 2012)

Poohbear said:


> @loolalooh
> 
> I haven't seen a scripture for your question.
> 
> However, I believe that we must depend on Jesus to save us from sin rather than depend on ourselves to stop sinning. Depending on ourselves to stop sinning, to sin less, or to do things to try to please God would be considered "works". Good "works" does not save us nor does it make us any more right with God. We can't earn salvation. Going in front of a church and saying you believe in Jesus now does not save you. Only faith in Jesus Christ can save us.


 
Thanks, 

This is what i call "walking with Jesus" 

We can say we believe Him all we want but we need to let him take control of our life.  
By giving Him control, something extraordinary happens:we start walking like him. We get less angry, we sin less, we have peace, we are less anxious, we feel more secured no matter the situation.

Some people will call the "works" I call it "walking with Jesus".

Blessings


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## makeupgirl (Mar 9, 2012)

Jesus already saved us from sin on the cross.  He just ask that people believe that he did.  



It's impossible to just completely stop sinning, I mean, anything can happen within the next second that may cause one to get out of fellowship.  Example: I was driving down the highway after church one day and the car in front of me suddenly slowed down to the point where I almost hit him.  I cussed.  

Did I mean too?  No I didn't.  It was an automatic response via my flesh.  

I just owned it, confess it to the Lord and apologized for it.  I didn't lose my salvation or my relationship/sonship with him.  I was just briefly out of fellowship until I made things right with him.  

I had a hormonalitude this morning and I was irritated at my cubemate, in my mind, I was cussing .  Even though, I didn't verbally cussed, I acknowledged that I still sinned against God and asked forgiveness.  I also prayed for help to yield to the Holy Spirit as he led and guide me because of what was going on with me.  (im better now) but I didnt' lose my relationship with him or my sonship.  I was out of fellowship until I made things right.  

To me, if you're in Christ and you're able to admit your mistakes and rely on the Holy Spirit to get you back on track; that's growth.  We're going to have those moments, where we're going to mess completely up.  I know I mess up everyday.  I still cuss, I still have a temper, I still have feelings that I shouldn't have towards others.  That doesn't mean I'm not a Christian.  I am a new creature in Christ, because I believe in him and according to his word that I am saved by the blood of Christ.  

The thing of it is, I cannot nor do I have power to convince others that you cannot lose your salvation.  None of us can convince one another, we should just continue to pray for one another as we continue to grow spiritually in Christ.


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## loolalooh (Mar 9, 2012)

Poohbear said:


> loolalooh
> 
> I haven't seen a scripture for your question.
> 
> However, I believe that we must depend on Jesus to save us from sin rather than depend on ourselves to stop sinning.  Depending on ourselves to stop sinning, to sin less, or to do things to try to please God would be considered "works". Good "works" does not save us nor does it make us any more right with God. We can't earn salvation. Going in front of a church and saying you believe in Jesus now does not save you. Only faith in Jesus Christ can save us.





Choisie said:


> Thanks,
> 
> This is what i call "walking with Jesus"
> 
> ...



Thanks, ladies. I call it walking with Him too. The "works" I see discussed in Scripture is usually in reference to the Pharisees ... and even the Jews of the OT adhering to law (Galatians 2). Walking with Jesus coincides with being filled of the Holy Spirit. To imply that such a walk is works synonmous to that of the Pharisees/Jews is a dangerous thing...


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## CoilyFields (Mar 9, 2012)

Choisie said:


> CoilyFields said:
> 
> 
> > This is truly a hot topic. What do I believe?
> ...


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## LucieLoo12 (Mar 9, 2012)

CoilyFields said:


> Choisie said:
> 
> 
> > I am starting from the premis:
> ...


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## Poohbear (Mar 9, 2012)

loolalooh said:


> Thanks, ladies. I call it walking with Him too. The "works" I see discussed in Scripture is usually in reference to the Pharisees ... and even the Jews of the OT adhering to law (Galatians 2). Walking with Jesus coincides with being filled of the Holy Spirit. To imply that such a walk is works synonmous to that of the Pharisees/Jews is a dangerous thing...



Your post reminded me of how the Pharisees tried to call out Jesus and the disciples for working on the Sabbath Day in the corn fields. The Pharisees tried to say what they did was not lawful, in other words, they were sinning and going against the commandments of God.

Then Jesus said this powerful statement in *Mark 2:25-28:*

*Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?

How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?

The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.*


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## CoilyFields (Mar 9, 2012)

Alicialynn86 said:


> CoilyFields said:
> 
> 
> > *Thats why we have to be born again...*
> ...


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## Rainbow Dash (Mar 9, 2012)

Well, I must say that this discussion has strenghtened me to continue to walk closely with Christ and pay attention to His Word. Less me and more  Him

Iron really does sharpen iron. I believe that we all have learned more about what it means to walk with Christ and what salvation really entails. 

I am thankful for all my e-sisters. 

This was really like a bible study, just online. 

Have a great weekend!!


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## loolalooh (Mar 9, 2012)

CoilyFields said:


> To answer your question:
> 
> When the Bible speaks about inheriting the kingdom concerning sinners...it is talking about eternal life (because that is all it can refer to concerning them). But when it talks to Christians depending on the context it is speaking about either here on earth or eternal life (as we have benefits of being an heir here on earth as well as in heaven).
> 
> ...




Let's look at the verse in context (i.e., along with verse 22):

*ROMANS 6: 22 But now you are free from the power of sin and have become slaves of God. Now you do those things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.*

We were born into sin.  God has given us a way out that is twofold: 
1) instead of death, we have eternal life
2) instead of remaining slaves to sin, we become slaves of God (i.e., "do those things that lead to holiness")




CoilyFields said:


> 4. But this escape is not automatic to humans. I have to recieve this gift. How do I recieve it?
> *JOhn 3:16 that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
> Acts 16:30-31 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
> 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
> ...



"Believe" is in the present tense.  Those who "believe in Jesus" will be saved.  Christians who fall away from the Lord (i.e., stop believing) should be careful.  Additionally, "believe" is a power-packed word.  Believe encompasses becoming a new person in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) ... a slave to God (Romans 6:22).

*2 CORINTHIANS*
14 Either way, Christ’s love controls us.[c] *Since we believe that Christ died for all, we also believe that we have all died to our old life.[d] 15 He died for everyone so that those who receive his new life will no longer live for themselves. Instead, they will live for Christ,* who died and was raised for them.

I didn't get to the rest of the post, but I agree: "The Bible CANNOT say that we are saved by works AND we are saved by grace only."  *But that grace comes with a change in our lives.*  If we are not accepting that change in our lives then something's not right in the water.  Whether the person was not saved to begin with ... or whether the person lost his/her salvation.  Something's not right in the water ...

This has been a great discussion on both sides.


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## sidney (Mar 9, 2012)

So, I prayed specifically about this thread and I want to share a dream that God showed that I believe contains the answer to this question. My sincere hope is that this may help someone, that is my only aim. So in the dream an electronic bible was open, like on a phone, and I saw the verse 19 bold on the left, and the text scrolled “up” as if someone was reading “down” to the middle verse, and it stopped there. Somehow I knew that the chapter was Luke. So the info I had was Luke 19, middle verses…and that was it! So…I had to ask God for an understanding of the scripture because he said nothing in the dream. By faith, I will attempt to explain to you the meaning of this parable. So, I will start with talking about faith, because outwardly it may seem that Luke 19 has nothing to do with faith and salvation, but it does! In Hebrews 11, there is an entire chapter summarizing *the works* of some of our most famed bible heroes. By faith, Abel brought a better offering than Cain did. By faith, Noah…when warned about things not seen, built an ark to save his family. By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. The chapter goes on and on about the faith of Moses, the faith that caused the walls of Jericho to fall, the faith of Rahab, David, Samuel, and many others. The curious thing is that faith in every believer listed is accompanied by works! It’s BY FAITH, that all of these heroes were able to perform the works*. See, our outward works always reflect what we believe!* (ie. You don’t open a bible to read it unless you think that it will benefit your spiritual life). It is clear that the middle verses of Luke 19[11-27] is about salvation/entering into the kingdom, but with a cursory glands one might think the way to obtain it is all about works. But it’s not. I will post the parable first, attempt to explain it, and then try to answer the question asked in this thread.

*The Parable of the Ten Talents: Luke 19:11-17[**middle verses]*
11 While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and *the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once*. 12 He said: “*A man of noble birth* went to a distant country *to have himself appointed king* and then to return. 13 *So he called ten of his servants* and gave them ten talents. ‘Put this money to work,’ he said, ‘until I come back.’ 14 “*But his subjects hated him* and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We don’t want this man to be our king.’ 15 “*He was made king*, however, *and returned home*. Then *he sent for the servants* to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it. 16 “The first one came and said, ‘Sir, your talent has earned ten more.’ 17 ‘*Well done, my good servant!*’ his master replied. ‘Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.’ 18 “*The second came* and said, ‘Sir, your talent has earned five more.’’ 19 “His master answered, ‘You take charge of five cities.’ 20 “*Then another servant came* and said, ‘Sir, here is your talent; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21 I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.’’ 22 “His master replied, ‘*I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant!* You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? [23 Why then didn’t you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?’ 24 “Then he said to those standing by, ‘Take his talent away from him and give it to the one who has ten talents.’’ 25 “‘Sir,’ they said, ‘he already has ten!’ 26 “He replied, *‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given*, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 *But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’*

So obviously the man of noble birth who appointed himself King is God[Jesus]. He is self-appointed. And he has three servants. Like the believers in Hebrews 11, the faithful servants did good works because they have faith in God that in doing so they would receive the promise. They sowed into God’s kingdom, by faith! By faith, they prepared for his return! Likewise, by faith, we prepare for his return and endure the cost of discipleship! And their good works were accompanied by their faith and evidence of their faith! See, this parable is not about works earning righteousness. But the wicked servant did not sow, but rather accused God! It was because of his unbelief, he was deemed wicked, and the penalty is death. It’s like the flipside of Hebrews 11, because of unbelief, he did nothing. Because of his unbelief, he did not obey God’s commandments to sow into his kingdom because he did not truly fear the King as he claimed. If he did, he would have obeyed. That is why he is deemed wicked, instead of just unfaithful! And because of it, he experienced “weeping and gnashing of teeth” which always refers to hell in the bible. Also notice that the wicked servant,rejected God as his king. God’s word says, why do you call me Lord, Lord, but do not do what I say. Luke 6:26. Not everyone who says, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom. Matthew 7:21. Prophesying in Christ's Name [by the power of Christ] and casting out demons, is done by Christians. Not wordly people. See this, whole parable was well and good with me, until I realized that ALL three servants, are Christians. Yep, even the wicked one. Which, indicated to me that Christians can forfeit their salvation through continual and willful unbelief. [I will try to support this by scripture in the rest of this message]. 

So from the last line, it’s clear the point of this parable is about salvation. But how do I know this parable is about faith, and not works? “For by grace, you have been saved through faith, and this is not your doing, it is a gift from God. Not because of your own works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship. Created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand.” Ephesians 2:8-10

Hebrews 10 is broken up into two parts. The first part talks about the sacrifice of God for our sins. The second half is an admonishment by Paul to persevere in faith. I will summarize the keep points. Paul starts by saying that we have the confidence to enter in by the blood of Jesus Christ, and to hold on unswervingly with the hope we profess, and to encourage eachother. Okay, I can’t summarize it. Verse 26:
26 *If we [*notice he includes himself, he is talking to Christians] *deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment *and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 *How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot*, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “*The Lord will judge his[notice he says HIS] people*.” 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you endured in a great conflict full of suffering. 33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34 You suffered along with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions.[still talking about Christians, who else would be persecuted for Christ’s sake] 

35 *So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.* 36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised[he is talking about salvation]. 37 *For, “In just a little while, he who is coming will come and will not delay*. [again talking about salvation]” 38 And, *“But my righteous one will live by faith. And I take no pleasure in the one who shrinks back*.” [See we must live by faith! Just like in the parable of the talents, because of our faith in him…we will be lead to do good works for the kingdom like the Hebrews 11 christians. Yes you, too! By faith, you have run the race like Paul, to get that crown that will last forever, 1 Corinthians 9:25. And by our faith ALONE will we be justified. The righteous ones will have faith through all the suffering we go through, see verses33-34. He will not walk away and turn to unbelief—and become and accuser of God,like the wicked servant, when things get rough; God takes no pleasure in this kind of person].

. CONTINUE TO NEXT POST


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## sidney (Mar 9, 2012)

Like the good and faithful servants in Luke 19, and the heroes in Hebrews 11, we should have faith that this lifestyle of holiness will win for us an eternal reward. We have to do what God tells us to do, by faith! We have to sow into the kingdom, by faith! As we saw in the Ephesians 2 verse above, we were created for good works! Our works, won’t save us through. Even the Pharisee’s have works but they had no faith in the one who was sent. Don’t just have faith in faith either, have faith IN GOD. 
*He**brews 11:6 “And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that HE EXISTS and that HE REWARDS those who earnestly seek him*. 


One more thing, *there is grace. This is not just about anyone having good works! It’s not! It’s about having a repentant heart! We can’t forget the story of the prodigal son. Repentance is always available. You are not disqualified! It’s not about works, it’s about having the faith to do what is right because he died for us. From that your good works will flow. *But I must warn that to continue to willfully continue in sin earns judgment. When you continue in willful and deliberate sin after hearing God's truth you are functioning in unbelief. BY FAITH, we do our best to live right. As I stated before, when you continue deliberate sin, you are operating in UNBELIEF. Your actions and works testify to the fact that you do not believe that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. Romans 6:23. See, the wicked servants bad actions and words condemned him! 

I also want to post Hebrews 6, I have to put whole verses in because the message gets loss with only posting one part. “Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3And this will we do, if God permit. 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, *and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost [who get’s the holy ghost, talking about christians],* 5*And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance[because they are unrepentant, hardened]; *seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. 9But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. *10For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labor of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints [good works of the faithful servant]*, and do minister. *11And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end*: 12That ye be not slothful [like the wicked servant], but followers of them *who through faith and patience inherit the promises*


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## sidney (Mar 9, 2012)

Poohbear said:


> @CoilyFields - The problem with the "once saved, always saved" doctrine is that no one is truly saved _yet_. Check out these verses in the bible:
> 
> *Matthew 24:13*
> But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
> ...


 
Didn't realize I said most of what you said, Thank you.  I agree with you Poohbear and all the ladies here and the scriptures you posted.


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## sidney (Mar 9, 2012)

Health&hair28 said:


> For you ladies that believe in once saved always saved. Please explain what 1 Timothy 4:1 tells you. If you walk with Christ and live according to His will then yes but what about 1 Timothy 4:1.
> 
> Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall *depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils*; 1 Tim 4:1
> 
> *Now these people were once apart of the faith, they were once saved had departed and gave into deception. *


 
WOW, speechless!  Oh my my my!!


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## makeupgirl (Mar 14, 2012)

Ok so this particular discussion has bothered me greatly throughtout the weekend and even until today and I'll probably always bother me because I just cannot believe that anyone in Christ would believe that they will lose their salvation. That's just mind-blowing to me. 

So I've been researching and today was led to this site (while working..shhhhh) 

It speaks about Eternal Security/God's Assurance. Now, I do believe once saved always saved doc? I surely do because its' in alignment with what Eternal Security is. 

So just read this with an open mind and remember this, if you're in Christ, you are a new creature and you've passed from life to death.

ETERNAL SECURITY*/ GOD'S ASSURANCE*​Jesus states in Jn.10:27-30: “_My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall anyone pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. _
You can break your communion with God but not your spiritual union. If one truly believes and follows, they are part of a living eternal organism called the body of Christ. 
The believer lives under grace. This guarantees God's ability to bring to a conclusion what we cannot. We were not saved by our works, so we don't undo our salvation by works. One cannot keep themselves saved, since we didn’t save ourselves in the first place, we remain saved by grace, by His power. 
Salvation is a gift freely given apart from any human effort. It does not depend on our performance nor on a certain amount of obedience in having it be permanent in our life. If you brought someone to faith in Christ and they asked how long will I be saved for? You say as long as you obey. How long can I obey? who knows. Your eternal security is not associated with your works but to Christ's work 
It is not a reward for good behavior Jn.10:28 “I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.” 
There are approximately 85 passages in the New Testament by both Jesus and Paul which attest to salvation by grace and that eternal life is imparted as a gift to all those who believe in Christ. 

Salvation's checklist​
One of the foremost ways Satan attacks Christians is by condemning them when they sin. He makes them question or doubt their salvation. Without the helmet of salvation on our minds are open to his doubts. We are to know what we believe so we cannot be persuaded into a lie. 
How does one know that they are saved. First is they will become acutely aware of their sin. They will sense a struggle of doing what was once pleasurable and be repelled of it, they will no longer practice sin as a lifestyle. They will have a battle of the indwelling of sin with his new nature, he cries out who will deliver me from this body of death. They will have the power to say no to the sins that so easily trapped him, if he so chooses. They have the witness of the Spirit, the word is now understandable and He bears witness that it is the truth. They have the peace of God where before he was wrestling against him he now enjoys obeying Gods commands where before he detested them. Their attitude toward the world will change his affections will be redirected toward the things of God. They will love Christ and be looking forward to his return having the assurance of being in his kingdom. They will also love the brethren, enjoying fellowship with them. They will provoke others to love and service unto the Lord not things contrary. They have a love for the Word which sets them apart from the world that is contrary to the things of God Jn.17:14-19. They will experience answered prayers for God's will in his life and others Jn.14,15:7. He will have the ability to discern truth from error whereas before he had no guidelines1 Jn.2:27; Heb.5:13-14. They believe in the essential doctrines of the faith and are willing to defend them to some degree when they are challenged. 
If someone leaves the lord and goes back into a lifestyle that is lived by heathens were they saved? The parable of the seed found in Mt.13 shows how it can germinate and lose its vitality being strangled by things in the world. No plant can be firm and produce fruit without a root system that is well grounded. Jesus says He has appointed us to produce fruit in various degrees, we will all produce fruit because we are a tree the Lord planted. Trees need nourishment, they need water (the word). As Jesus said in Jn.15 we must abide in the vine, apart from him we can do nothing. He then goes on to say those who do not abide are cast out into fire. There are a number of ways to look at this; one is that it is hell, another is fiery trial that will purge or chasten the believer back into obedience. Again if we go back and take the context He is speaking about abiding in His Word, which continually cleanses us, proving one is a true disciple. 
​


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## makeupgirl (Mar 14, 2012)

*Its either eternal security or eternal insecurity* ​
Jn.10:28 “I give them eternal life, and _they shall never perish_, no one shall snatch them out of my hand.” 
Rom.6:23 “For the wages of sin is death; _but the gift of God is eternal life_ through Jesus Christ our Lord. 
Jn.3:18 “_He that believeth on him is not condemned_: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 

Jn.5:24 “He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.” One is made spiritually alive by having true living faith. 
The believer _has_ (present tense) eternal life, he does not have judgment of his destiny but his works, as1 Cor. 3:10-15 says all that he has done may be burned but He Himself will receive eternal life. Why? because it is a _free gift_! 
The presence of sin is always with us 1 Jn.1:8 “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. So it is continually there as the old nature. When someone is always walking in the flesh they are condemned because they are not enjoying the benefits of grace. This is why so many start to question their possessing salvation. 1 Jn.2:1 “I write to you that you may not sin and if anyone sins we have an advocate with the father.” We sin when we act upon the nature that is always present. When we give over to its desires it brings forth death Jm.1:14-15. As believers we now have a new nature dwelling inside us next to the old. This death James speaks about is not spiritual death. If that were true every time we sin we need to be reborn. Paul clarifies this by saying in Gal.6:8 “For he who sows to the flesh will of the flesh reap corruption but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap eternal life.” 
Although sin is always with us: We have been saved from the penalty of sin by Christ’s death on the cross. We are presently being saved from the power of sin that tries to dominate us. We are no longer slaves but set free. We will finally be saved from the presence of sin when we are transformed to our eternal incorruptible bodies. 

The meaning of eternal life means a present possession that continues throughout eternity. It is not eternal life for a day, a month, and a year. It means what it says, it is eternal life from God, who is also eternal. If one entertains the idea that eternal life has a limit then God will also cease. Because the same word describes both God's nature and the believers standing in Christ. One cannot undo their spiritual birth anymore than they can reverse their physical birth. (2 Cor.5:17, Gal.6:15, Eph.2:10) 
God is not like men who who give only to take back; Titus 1:2: “In hope of eternal life which God who cannot lie, promised before time began.” Those who believe they can lose their salvation are usually those who felt they did something to gain it, that they have to keep it by their own deeds. To claim you lost your salvation by not doing something often means they received it by doing something. If works are interjected for salvation then there is no eternal security because it is always in the future tense. If salvation is dependent on what we do to keep it, then we have no assurance, because we all fall short in many things. Eternal life is a gift from God by His grace, not a command we keep. 
We should have more confidence and faith than the Old Testament saints (Heb.11) because we have more revelation in the word to be assured of. 
Rom.5:20-21...”But where sin increased grace abounded all the more.” 
There is always more grace than there is sin, no matter what is done God is willing to cover our faults and sins. He doesn’t give up on anyone. 
Rom.4:8 “Blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute sin.” In our forgiven position God does not charge us with what we owe. He does not count our sins against us otherwise no one would be able to stand before him. 
Rom.8:30 tells us that who God justifies he will also glorify. (Rom.5:15-16 tells us justification is the free gift.) This is the future promise that he who began a good work in you will complete it Phil.1:6. In Heb12:2 it States “Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. It's not dependent on us as much as it is on him. We cooperate with the work he is doing in us and through us. 
Rom.8:1-9 this whole chapter is on the believers new relationship in the present and future with God. Vs.1 there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. vs.2-8 we are delivered from the law of sin and death by the death of Jesus fulfilling the spiritual obligation of the law.(Heb.7:18 tells us the Old Testament covenant was annulled 8:13 the 1st covenant he has made obsolete) vs.9-13 we now have the presence of Gods nature dwelling inside us that helps us live the Christian life. vs.14-17 the believer is now an heir of God. vs.28-29 God has a divine purpose for each believer as he conforms each to his son. vs.30-33 he has a united purpose for all and will bring to completion, no exceptions. There is nothing that can separate us from the love of God. 
Eph.1:13 we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (gr. aurobon- means a down payment like an engagement ring) God does not break his promises we are engaged as the bride soon to be married. He has asked for our hand in the marriage. If we accept we are in an unconditional covenant relationship, meaning it is not dependent on us but on him. 
2 Cor.1:22 “Set his seal of ownership on us and _put his spirit_ in our hearts as a deposit guaranteeing what is to come. There are no refunds on his deposit. 
Rom.8:9...If anyone does not have the spirit of Christ he does not belong to him. 
1Cor. 3:16 “do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the _Spirit of God dwells in you.” _The spirit is his assurance to us we are owned by him. 

Assurance scriptures​1 Jn.5:10: _He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself_: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. V.11: And this is the record, that _God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son_. 12: He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13: These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; *that you may know that you have eternal life*, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God.” When we are weak in faith we will struggle with the promises.
Many say I don't feel secure-_but you are_, we can’t go on feelings. I haven't done enough to deserve salvation- _but he’s given it as a free gift_, so you don’t have to do anymore than when you first received him. I don't feel I'm living up to his expectations- _repent and go back to your first love_. Anything we have to say that reflects our falling short, God has a solution for. The root of the problem is that we don't really know our position in Christ and live by our condition.
So assured is our eternal life that it says we are already seated in heavenly places. (positionally)

*1 Pt. 1:3-5 *“_Who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an *inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,* who are *kept by the power of God* through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time_.”
This concept is further expanded by statements of being kept from falling or preserved until the day of Christ.

One cannot undo their spiritual birth anymore than they can undo their physical birth.   Eph.4:30 says we are sealed until the day of redemption. The indwelling ministry of the Spirit is forever our eternal life is dependent upon him. Through the baptizing work of the Holy Spirit we are vitally joined to Christ and become part of his body. We are now citizens of heaven, a pilgrim to this world, a foreign resident just passing through. (Luke 10:20; 2 Cor. 5:20; Eph. 2:19; Phil.3:20; Heb. 12:19-20)


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## makeupgirl (Mar 14, 2012)

_He is the beginner and finisher of our faith_​ 
*Heb.5:9:* “_He is the author of *eternal salvation* to ALL WHO OBEY HIM.”_
The first act of obedience is repentance, going from unbelief to belief, exercising faith in the Gospel. If you repent and believe this puts you in the new covenant, faith is obedience*. *Then one follows turning over their life daily to the Lord. As Paul said he dies daily, picking up the cross of suffering denying self and having Christ live his life through you.
*Col. 1:20-23: *“_And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled  in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight--  if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard_” Faith equals faithfulness, it is persevering. We must hold to the faith not be passive_. _Then he will “ present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight. It is not how you start the race but if you finish it. 
Heb. 3:5-6 :“_And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are i__f we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the en_d.” We show we are Saints by our persevering; faithfulness.
Proverbs says if a righteous man falls 7 times he will get up 7 times. Our part is to continue and God will be there for us, He will not forsake us.
There is always grace to those who are willing. 2 Tim 2:11-13 “_This is a faithful saying: for if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him. If we endure, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, he also will deny us.  If we are faithless, he remains faithful; he cannot deny Himself._”
God will give his Holy Spirit to those who ask, He will always go further with us than we can with Him. Our co-operation is needed to have a victorious life of faith.

*God is faithful to us. * 
*1 Thess. 5:24*:“_He who calls you is faithful who will also do it.”_
*Jude 24* _“Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.”_
_This is why Paul starts off his letters with grace and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus. We depend on him to do the work in us by faith._
*Phil.1:6*_: “Being confident of this very thing, that he who began a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus.” vs.12...“Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for his good pleasure.” Paul tells the church to bring to a completion what they already possess, their salvation, we cooperate for doing Gods will and having him glorified and our maturity._
While we are to continually confess our sins, it is not to obtain or keep salvation but for cleansing. Our fellowship with God and his people can be hindered and severed for a time but our union with Christ can never be taken away.
The same one who saves us is the one who keeps us. If maintaining our faith for salvation were dependent on us alone then none of us could be saved.
I Jn.5:1 gives us the promise “_Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ  is born of God, and everyone who loves him who begot also loves him who is begotten of him_”vs.11 “a_nd this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son._..vs.13 _these things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know you have eternal life, and that you may continue in the name of the Son of God.”_

*The only way one can know this is to*...


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## makeupgirl (Mar 14, 2012)

*CONFUSING **COMMANDS**WITH **SALVATION*​The Bible gives numerous commands- it tells us to pray always_, does this mean if we fail to do this we lose our salvation. _We are told to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, mind, soul and strength, no one is able to do this all the time. Does this mean we lose our salvation? Of course not.
If we look at the examples such as Peter who denied the Lord three times and disobeyed many times afterwards. If salvation depended solely upon his obedience he never would have made it and neither would we. What of Lot? He must have lost his salvation with his compromising and what he did to his daughters. 2 Pt.2:6-9 tells us Lot died a saved man. What about Samson? If anyone should lose their salvation for compromising and sin it would be him. Yet, Heb.11:32 tells us he died a saved man. What of Moses who disobeyed God once and was not allowed into the Promised Land, did he lose his salvation? No, he was physically punished, not spiritually punished. He appears with Elijah on the Mt. of  Transfiguration discussing with Jesus His coming sacrifice, something he would not be able to do if he lost his salvation. So we must not assume that every time someone is judged in the body they are also judged spiritually.
What of David and his sins of adultery and murder? Surely the Bible teaches that no adulterer or murderer will enter the kingdom of heaven, but it is talking about one who continues to practice these things as a lifestyle without repentance. These acts did not lead to a loss of salvation because David repented (Ps.51:8-12) and he was cleared of all his sins. However he did reap problems as the sword never left his household. The book of Hebrews has all these individuals and others mentioned. The Bible never hides the faults nor shines the halos over its people. It tells both sides; the good, and the bad and the ugly. They are included in the Hebrews hall of faith and they received a good testimony inheriting the promise of eternal life with us. When we come to the New Testament. All the warnings are in reference to losing ones physical life and losing our rewards.
We have the example of Annanias and Sapphira. Just as in the Old Testament they were judged in the body losing their physical life. The Bible is silent on whether or not they forfeited their spiritual life.  We assume they were saved being part of the church. Lying to the Holy Spirit should not be confused as with the blasphemy of the Spirit.  
Last example and not the least is Judas Iscariot. It is assumed he was saved because he traveled with the other disciples but we know he was not. Jn.13:16-21 Jesus says he was not clean, in other words he heard the word but really did not believe it or act upon it. He did not have living faith. Jn.17:12 tells us no one will be lost, but the_ son of perdition, _who is Judas.  He fulfilled the position by the purposes of his own heart.  At the last supper we find Judas did not partake of the wine (Christ's blood ) but only the bread (Jesus’ flesh) Jn.13:26-30. Mt.27:3-5. Later we find Judas is for his betrayal but it was not a godly sorrow that would lead to repentance or salvation.  Acts 1:24-25 states that he fell from his potential position of apostleship not from salvation since he never possessed it.  He never followed by his heart but only by the outward looking for a redeemer that would be political and overthrow Rome. He of course was trapped by his own coveting as he longed for money instead of truth.
There are also numerous commands that we are to keep not for salvation but for discipleship. There are also commands that apply to both, in Mk.8:34 Jesus states, _“If any man would come after me, let him deny himself take up his cross and follow me_.” This is a requirement for both salvation and discipleship as Paul admonishes in Rom. 6:1-11 “Reckon yourself dead to sin but alive to God.” Also in Mt.10:32-33 “To confess me before men and I will confess you before my father in heaven.”   Is applied to our lifestyle if we are ashamed of him then he is not really alive working in our lives. This is not to be confused with a salvation confession in Rom.10:8-11.
Sometimes people rely on their feelings. We may feel something at the time of our new birth, we may not. As time goes on many do not feel saved, they have sinned feel ashamed and so they believe they need to ask  Jesus again and again to save them. And they continue to come forward because they believe they have no assurance of salvation. This is because they do not understand what faith is and how it is placed in trusting Christ’s work on the cross. Salvation is by God’s grace in Christ's work and received through faith.
God saves a person based on their faith in response to the gospel message, we are justified by God (Rom. 3:24, 28), we are declared non guilty, clothed in Christ's righteousness and now accepted as His children. We are able to stand without guilt before His law that condemns all. Paul makes it clear that once God justifies the person, he cannot be condemned or lose his salvation (Rom. 8:1, 32, 33). _However _our salvation is not completed until we are glorified in God's presence. And this occurs at the end of the believer's life on earth or by the rapture/resurrection, whichever comes first (1 John 3:2; John 17:24; Rev. 21:3, 4). This is why we are admonished to persevere, there must be faithfulness in our life; which is an outworking of living faith. If someone does not make it to the end in faith were they saved? This why Heb. 4:1-3 says “_Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word, which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: “So I swore in My wrath, they shall not enter My rest,”_ although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
With all the assurance Scripture we do not neglect the part we are to do either. We are admonished to persevere, there must be faithfulness in our life, which is an outworking of living faith. If someone does not make it to the end in faith were they saved? This why Paul compares this life to a race. 1 Cor. 9:24-27: “_Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified_.” We must reach the end still in the faith not dropping out along the way.
Paul twice mentions a warning about running in vain Gal. 2:2: “_And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain_.” Phil. 2:16: “_holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain.”_
2 Tim. 4:6-7: “_For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith._”​
The writers of Hebrews adds Heb. 12:1-2: “_and __let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our_ faith and then explains Jesus fulfilling his mission by going to the cross.
To be in the faith means one will be faithful as the fruit of their trust. When one falls in sin they get right back up ask for cleansing. While we can wrestle over what the demarcation line is for losing salvation, we do know  Scripture makes it clear the only unforgivable sin is the Blasphemy of the Spirit. 2 Pet. 2:20 says, “_For if, after they have escaped the pollution's of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning._” If one is questioning where they stand, they need only to repent and be renewed. 2 Tim. 2:21 “_Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work_.” Then, “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; *that you may know that you have eternal life*,” will be your assurance.



INFO via here


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## Honi (Mar 14, 2012)

makeupgirl. I have to read this when I get back from Taekwando . I can't believe it either because all I can see is Christ and Him laying down his life. That's all I SEE. To believe otherwise is a slap in the face to what HE has done and therefore, has some believers having an under estimation of what HE IS.

Ok I'm rushing. Some of the scriptures in the book of Hebrews is talking to the Jew not the gentile. Not all parts of Scripture pertain to us but in Hebrews 6 and 10 there is reference to those that reject Him after having once known Him. This is the believer no longer believing and rejection salvation. Constant and consistent rejection will cause you to lose it.


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## makeupgirl (Mar 14, 2012)

Honi said:


> @makeupgirl. I have to read this when I get back from Taekwando . I can't believe it either because all I can see is Christ and Him laying down his life. That's all I SEE. To believe otherwise is a slap in the face to what HE has done and therefore, has some believers having an under estimation of what HE IS.
> 
> Ok I'm rushing. Some of the scriptures in the book of Hebrews is talking to the Jew not the gentile. Not all parts of Scripture pertain to us but in Hebrews 6 and 10 there is reference to those that reject Him after having once known Him. This is the believer no longer believing and rejection salvation. Constant and consistent rejection will cause you to lose it.


 
I understand.  Have fun at Taekwando


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Mar 14, 2012)

My thoughts yes, one can loose his salvation, otherwise who are these people who did things in HIS name and will call on the Lord in the last day and HE will firmly declare that he knows them not...

Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound, God forbid...


It's dangerous to think that we can turn back on God and there are no consequences...

Ezekiel 18 (in fact from v.20 on down is very enlightening)
 24 “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die. 

Please don't tell me he was talking to the Israelites and not us, the unchanging God changes his mind for no man, we have inherited both the blessings and cursings only those who *endur**eth* *till the end* will be saved not those who change there minds along the way.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Mar 14, 2012)

Remember this: Satan was saved once too, can I expect to see him receiving a golden crown on judgement day, God forbid.

If that is case then I might as well quit right now and live as my flesh sometimes wants to.

He give's us free will and doesn't force his will on us, he is a gentlemen, only those who are willing and obedient will eat the good fo the land...those who are *faithful unto death* will receive the Crown of Life.


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## makeupgirl (Mar 14, 2012)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> My thoughts yes, one can loose his salvation, *otherwise who are these people who did things in HIS name and will call on the Lord in the last day and HE will firmly declare that he knows them not...*
> 
> Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound, God forbid...
> 
> ...


 
With those he will say "Depart from me, I never knew you" those are the people who have claimed to be Christians but have no relationship with him.  They are the Pharaisses (sp?) if you will.  They are religious folk.  Remember religion is man's attempt to reach God.  So these people are doing everything they can to work to get into heaven, instead of what God tell us to do.  Cain and Abel is a good example like this.  Abel obeyed and offer the sacrifice that God wanted.  Cain tried to offer his own thing, thus disobeying God.  Their example is just one of the many examples leading up to the cross that will show how it's going to be, to show who is the church and who is of the world.   If we could lose our salvation, truly lose it, then the bible would say it without sugarcoating.  Plus, if we could lose our salvation, why would God put his Spirit in those who believe in him?  Plus, Jesus said it is finished when he was on the cross, where he conquered death, hell, and the grave and most of all sin.  He also died for past, present and future sins.  (yep that image of little makeupgirl stealing that cookie from grandma's cookie jar and present time makeupgirl cussing out in her mind that has ticked her off was shown then)  Even though the body of Christ are no longer sinners, we cannot escape sin.  We still have that sinful nature that is always going to restle for control.  This is why we was told to be filled with the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:16-17) Pray without ceasing; and 1 John 1:9.  We can't lose our sonship.  Just like when I make my mom mad, I don't lose my relationship with her; Im just briefly out of fellowship with her until I make things right and this is the same with our relationship with God.


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## Galadriel (Mar 14, 2012)

CoilyFields said:


> This is truly a hot topic.  What do I believe?
> 
> Once saved always saved.



Thanks for sharing! A lot of my college friends also have the same view .




CoilyFields said:


> Due to the fact that I did not do anything to EARN my salvation (works), then conversely I cannot do anything to UNEARN it (works) *Eph 2:8-9.8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: * *9Not of works, lest any man should boast*



I agree that we do not earn salvation. It is a free gift from God. However, we must willfully accept Christ's redemption and have faith in Him. And if we can accept Christ, we can also reject Him.



CoilyFields said:


> -Jesus traded his righteousness for my unrighteousness once and for all (for sins past, present, and future) *2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.*



True, but this does not support (or disprove) once saved always saved--it's just saying that Christ's sacrifice on the Cross is eternal and sufficient to redeem us.




CoilyFields said:


> -If we lost our salvation then God would not have made provision for us (believers) for when we do sin. *1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.*



What if we sin and refuse to confess? What if we sin and don't want to acknowledge it? If a Christian can sin, then he can commit mortal sin. I think the question of whether or not a Christian can lose his salvation hinges on our belief and understanding on (1) what sin is (2) the effect it has on us and (3) Hell



CoilyFields said:


> If I can lose my salvation then I live in *fear *that if I sin, I no longer have eternal life. So since most of us sin regularly (in thought and deed) then at any moment we may die and heaven becomes...the luck of the draw? If I fornicated then got hit by a car and died then hell is my home? No!



From my p.o.v: If a person had repented of it before getting hit by the car, he would finish getting cleansed in purgatory then go to heaven. If he did not repent, yes, he would go to Hell.




CoilyFields said:


> -The Word often talks about not inheriting the kingdom due to different sinful acts...
> 
> *The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions  and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal 5:19-21) *
> 
> This is not referring to heaven or eternal life as the kingdom of God, but to the life we live here on earth. *Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.*



I believe (Gal. 5:19-21) refers to Heaven and Hell. In Revelation, these people are also shut out.



CoilyFields said:


> -Salvation does not equal living right (if that were the case then anyone who lived a "good" life could go to heaven and wouldnt need Jesus). Salvation is being saved from the damnation we are owed due to our sins. Not because we earned it...but simply because God is so gracious that he knew the ONLY way to guarantee our place in heaven was to let us borrow Jesus' righteousness-cause even our rightousness is as filthy rags *Isaiah 64:6 and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags*. Even our sanctification and holiness (trying to live right) is not good enough to secure salvation.
> 
> 
> I don't expect everyone to agree with that but it is what I understand the Word to say, what we have been taught in my Church, and what I truly believe based on the scriptures.



CoilyFields what would you (or your church/theology) define as sin? What is Justification and Sanctification? what is Hell, and who goes there? 

(I ask these b/c I think our Yay or Nay on the question hinges on our underlying views on sin, salvation, and Hell)


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## makeupgirl (Mar 14, 2012)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> *Remember this: Satan was saved once too, can I expect to see him receiving a golden crown on judgement day, God forbid.*
> 
> If that is case then I might as well quit right now and live as my flesh sometimes wants to.
> 
> He give's us free will and doesn't force his will on us, he is a gentlemen, only those who are willing and obedient will eat the good fo the land...those who are *faithful unto death* will receive the Crown of Life.


 
Actually, Satan was never a follower of Christ to begin with.  Satan/Lucifer was created just like Adam, Eve, and all of the angels in heaven but despite the perfect place that he was in, he chose to go rogue and tried to exalt himself higher than his creator and was cast out.  Plus, Satan couldn't have been saved then because there was no need for a savior yet.  We didn't need a Savior until Adam's sin, thus is the reason why Christ died to reverse what happen so we could be reconciled back to God.  

Satan fate was already sealed from the very beginning and is destined for the Lake of Fire.


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## Galadriel (Mar 14, 2012)

makeupgirl said:


> It's impossible to just completely stop sinning,



We're going to have to at some point. Souls in Heaven don't sin at all.


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## makeupgirl (Mar 14, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> We're going to have to at some point. Souls in Heaven don't sin at all.


 
That's why we're getting a new body when we go. (side note**im so looking forward to this.  No more diabetes, periods, PMS, bipolar, acne, etc. lol)

Phil 3:20:"For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:"

Phil 3:21:"Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."

Also 1 Cor 15: 35-49

*A Glorious Body (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+15&version=NKJV)*

35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other _grain._ 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
39 All flesh _is_ not the same flesh, but _there is_ one _kind of_ flesh[c] of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, _and_ another of birds.
40 _There are_ also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial _is_ one, and the _glory_ of the terrestrial _is_ another. 41 _There is_ one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for _one_ star differs from _another_ star in glory.
42 So also _is_ the resurrection of the dead. _The body_ is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.”[d] The last Adam _became_ a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man _was_ of the earth, _made_ of dust; the second Man _is_ the Lord[e] from heaven. 48 As _was_ the _man_ of dust, so also _are_ those _who are made_ of dust; and as _is_ the heavenly _Man,_ so also _are_ those _who are_ heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the _man_ of dust, we shall also bear[f] the image of the heavenly _Man._


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## Galadriel (Mar 14, 2012)

makeupgirl said:


> That's why we're getting a new body when we go. (side note**im so looking forward to this.  No more diabetes, periods, PMS, bipolar, acne, etc. lol)



I am so with you on that. Do you believe we'll have a glorified body when we die and go to heaven? Or at the resurrection?


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 14, 2012)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> R*emember this: Satan was saved once too*, can I expect to see him receiving a golden crown on judgement day, God forbid.
> 
> If that is case then I might as well quit right now and live as my flesh sometimes wants to.
> 
> He give's us free will and doesn't force his will on us, he is a gentlemen, only those who are willing and obedient will eat the good fo the land...those who are *faithful unto death* will receive the Crown of Life.





makeupgirl said:


> Actually, Satan was never a follower of Christ to begin with.  *Satan/Lucifer was created just like Adam, Eve, and all of the angels in heaven* but despite the perfect place that he was in, he chose to go rogue and tried to exalt himself higher than his creator and was cast out.  Plus, Satan couldn't have been saved then because there was no need for a savior yet.  We didn't need a Savior until Adam's sin, thus is the reason why Christ died to reverse what happen so we could be reconciled back to God.
> 
> Satan fate was already sealed from the very beginning and is destined for the Lake of Fire.


Ok...ya'll have got to explain this to me.

*Man* (includes Adam and Eve) *was made in the image and likeness of God*...satan was not.

Satan was an angel (created being) whom got kicked out of heaven. (we know the story...as lightening)

Jesus laid down His life to *save mankind *(remember, He doesn't want any to perish but all to come to repentance.)

So, I ask this:

How was satan saved?  And, when did he become a man?

Thanks in advance!


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Mar 14, 2012)

Nice & Wavy said:
			
		

> Ok...ya'll have got to explain this to me.
> 
> Man (includes Adam and Eve) was made in the image and likeness of God...satan was not.
> 
> ...



Okay I apologize for my over zealousness it brings error and misunderstanding, Satan once served God and that was the point 
point I was trying to make.


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 14, 2012)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> Okay I apologize for my over zealousness it brings error and misunderstanding, Satan once served God and that was the point
> point I was trying to make.


Thanks for answering...I was wondering, but you cleared it up for me 

Btw, never stop being zealous....it becomes you! 

N&W


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Mar 14, 2012)

Love you back more...

Over zealousness and poor choice in wording can lead to harsh rebuke...by the way if I'm in need by all means...


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 14, 2012)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> Love you back more...
> 
> Over zealousness and poor choice in wording can lead to harsh rebuke...by the way if I'm in need by all means...


I didn't mean to give you a harsh rebuke...If I did, I'm sorry :Rose:


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Mar 14, 2012)

Nice & Wavy said:
			
		

> I didn't mean to give you a harsh rebuke...If I did, I'm sorry :Rose:



Now I'm sorry times two, trust that I didn't take it that way at all....just letting u know that I would welcome if it was necessary.


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## Honi (Mar 15, 2012)

makeupgirl that was enlightening. Thank you so much for that.

Hebrews was directed to the Jews that had accepted Christ and was written to encourage them in Christianity. The unsaved Jews who were still wavering on whether to accept Christ or not willing to commit were in danger of abandoning Christ's teachings all together as a faith and slipping back into Judiasm and therefore into judgment.

Chapter 3 reminds the Jews that Christ as the Son of God was above Moses, therefore His Word was final and His sacrifice sufficient. 

Chapter 6 warns against mixing law and grace. Do not taste the work of the Spirit and then go back to ceremonies of the Law. There is no more sacrificing bulls and goats.

6:4 - It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance.

This reference is for the Hebrews that were FULLY enlightened in the prophecies about Christ having seen Him, His signs, miracles and wonders, the works of the Holy Spirit, His resurrection and still reject Him. It is not for the believer because we have received His heavenly gift and not "tasted". Only one comes to mind that rejected Him....Judas.

Now….

Any unsaved Jew that persists in moving away from the truth and light they have already received in Christ Jesus and rejects the Gospel they can expect nothing but judgment from God. 

Hebrews 10:26 - If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?


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## makeupgirl (Mar 15, 2012)

makeupgirl said:


> Actually, Satan was never a follower of Christ to begin with. Satan/Lucifer was created just like Adam, Eve, and all of the angels in heaven but despite the perfect place that he was in, he chose to go rogue and tried to exalt himself higher than his creator and was cast out. Plus, Satan couldn't have been saved then because there was no need for a savior yet. We didn't need a Savior until Adam's sin, thus is the reason why Christ died to reverse what happen so we could be reconciled back to God.
> 
> Satan fate was already sealed from the very beginning and is destined for the Lake of Fire.


 


Nice & Wavy said:


> Ok...ya'll have got to explain this to me.
> 
> *Man* (includes Adam and Eve) *was made in the image and likeness of God*...satan was not.
> 
> ...


 
Good morning 

I was in such a hurry last night trying to finish my work that I probably worded it wrong.  I meant that Satan is a created being, even though he wasn't made in the image of God, he was still a created being like everyone else.  (if I"m wrong, feel free to correct me   )

But no Satan was never saved and never became a man; so there was no need for him to be saved anyway even if possible, because he sealed his own fate upon his rebellion.  (was that a dumb thing for him to do or what?)


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## makeupgirl (Mar 15, 2012)

Honi said:


> @makeupgirl that was enlightening. Thank you so much for that.
> 
> Hebrews was directed to the Jews that had accepted Christ and was written to encourage them in Christianity. The unsaved Jews who were still wavering on whether to accept Christ or not willing to commit were in danger of abandoning Christ's teachings all together as a faith and slipping back into Judiasm and therefore into judgment.
> 
> ...


 
You're welcome and your post was enlightening, as well.  I haven't been able to attend bible study at my church since my schedule at work changed, so I enjoy the discussions with everyone.


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## CoilyFields (Mar 15, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> @CoilyFields what would you (or your church/theology) define as sin? What is Justification and Sanctification? what is Hell, and who goes there?
> 
> (I ask these b/c I think our Yay or Nay on the question hinges on our underlying views on sin, salvation, and Hell)


 
1. Sin is any thought, action, attitude, desire or position that is in disobedience to God and his divine law.

2. Justification is the act of being declared righteous-in right standing with God. 

3. Sanctification is the process by which we become more holy (sin less and do more good).

4. Hell is a place of eternal seperation from God. A place of torment for those who choose not to accept Jesus as their savior. (There are different degrees of torment in hell just as there are different degrees of rewards in heaven)

How do these work together? 

We are housed in bodies of sin (sinful nature) and continuously break Gods laws. 

God declared that the wages of sin is death (eternal seperation from God in hell) so we were all headed straight to hell because of our sinful nature (when we break one law we are gulity of breaking all).

Jesus died on the cross to free us from the ultimate penalty of sin (hell). He did this by trading his righteousness for our unrighteousness, thereby justifying us before God. So for those who believe...when God looks at us, He sees the righteousness of His son and declares us righteous, securing our eternal destination, heaven.

But while here on earth we have a part to play. Sanctification is us, by the power of the Holy ghost, doing our part to become more like God (working out -or choosing to live in the reality of-our soul salvation, enduring until the end etc.). This includes prayer, obedience to His word, studying, repenting for sins, doing good works etc. Though we are no longer slaves to sin...we still sin and will not be completely free from our sinful nature until death. And while we are still here on earth we will reap in this life what we sow...present consequences/rewards and the un/fulfilling of certain promises God gave.

Galadriel , where do you/catholicsm differ on the above doctrines (sin, sanctification, justification, and hell)


It seems as though there are a couple different view points going on concerning losing one's salvation.

1. You can lose it if you believe in Jesus but commit certain sins.

2. You can lose it if you believe in Jesus and commit a sin that you do not repent for before you die.

3. You can believe then choose not to believe and therefore give back your salvation.

I'm not sure if everyone is adhering to all of the above or some.


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 15, 2012)

makeupgirl said:


> Good morning
> 
> I was in such a hurry last night trying to finish my work that I probably worded it wrong.  I meant that Satan is a created being, even though he wasn't made in the image of God, he was still a created being like everyone else.  (if I"m wrong, feel free to correct me   )
> 
> But no Satan was never saved and never became a man; so there was no need for him to be saved anyway even if possible, because he sealed his own fate upon his rebellion.  (was that a dumb thing for him to do or what?)


No problem


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## Galadriel (Mar 15, 2012)

CoilyFields said:


> 1. Sin is any thought, action, attitude, desire or position that is in disobedience to God and his divine law.
> 
> 2. Justification is the act of being declared righteous-in right standing with God.
> 
> ...




CoilyFields Thanks so much for laying it out thoroughly!  I agree with about 98% of what you said. I think there is one major point I'd differ on, and then there are some other detailed nuances that Catholicism adheres to.

While I agree that we still deal with temptations and inclinations to sin (and at times commit sin), I believe that we can stop sinning, but not through our own power or effort, but through Christ's sanctifying grace.

This is the purpose of sanctification. It's a process, and the end (or goal) is that we reach interior holiness.

If for whatever reason we still have flaws or attachments at the time of death, that is what Purgatory is for, to complete the cleansing of our souls so that we may enter Heaven spotless and see God face to face.

I agree that sin is any willful word, thought, or action that violates God's law, and this includes the willful neglect of what is commanded in God's law. 

I'll quote below from the Catholic Catechism (Baltimore Catechism):


*Q. 277. Is original sin the only kind of sin?*
  A. Original sin is not the only kind of sin; there is another kind of sin, which we commit ourselves, called actual sin.


*Q. 278. What is actual sin?*
  A. Actual sin is any willful thought, word, deed, or omission contrary to the law of God.


*Q. 279. How many kinds of actual sin are there?*
  A. There are two kinds of actual sin -- mortal and venial.


*Q. 280. What is mortal sin?*
  A. Mortal sin is a grievous offense against the law of God.


*Q. 281. Why is this sin called mortal?*
  A. This sin is called mortal because it deprives us of spiritual life, which is sanctifying grace, and brings everlasting death and damnation on the soul.


*Q. 282. How many things are necessary to make a sin mortal?*
  A. To make a sin mortal, three things are necessary: 1.a grievous matter, sufficient reflection, and full consent of the will.


*Q. 283. What do we mean by "grievous matter" with regard to sin?*
  A. By "grievous matter" with regard to sin we mean that the thought, word or deed by which mortal sin is committed must be either very bad in itself or severely prohibited, and therefore sufficient to make a mortal sin if we deliberately yield to it.


*Q. 284. What does "sufficient reflection and full consent of the will" mean?*
  A. "Sufficient reflection" means that we must know the thought, word or deed to be sinful at the time we are guilty of it; and "full consent of the will" means that we must fully and willfully yield to it.


*Q. 285. What are sins committed without reflection or consent called?*
  A. Sins committed without reflection or consent are called material sins; that is, they would be formal or real sins if we knew their sinfulness at the time we committed them. Thus to eat flesh meat on a day of abstinence without knowing it to be a day of abstinence or without thinking of the prohibition, would be a material sin.


*Q. 286. Do past material sins become real sins as soon as we discover their sinfulness?*
  A. Past material sins do not become real sins as soon as we discover their sinfulness, unless we again repeat them with full knowledge and consent.


*Q. 287. How can we know what sins are considered mortal?*
  A. We can know what sins are considered mortal from Holy Scripture; from the teaching of the Church, and from the writings of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church.


*Q. 288. Why is it wrong to judge others guilty of sin?*
  A. It is wrong to judge others guilty of sin because we cannot know for certain that their sinful act was committed with sufficient reflection and full consent of the will.


*Q. 289. What sin does he commit who without sufficient reason believes another guilty of sin?*
  A. He who without sufficient reason believes another guilty of sin commits a sin of rash judgment.


*Q. 290. What is venial sin?*
  A. Venial sin is a slight offense against the law of God in matters of less importance, or in matters of great importance it is an offense committed without sufficient reflection or full consent of the will.


*Q. 291. Can we always distinguish venial from mortal sin?*
  A. We cannot always distinguish venial from mortal sin, and in such cases we must leave the decision to our confessor.


*Q. 292. Can slight offenses ever become mortal sins?*
  A. Slight offenses can become mortal sins if we commit them through defiant contempt for God or His law; and also when they are followed by very evil consequences, which we foresee in committing them.


*Q. 293. Which are the effects of venial sin?*
  A. The effects of venial sin are the lessening of the love of God in our heart, the making us less worthy of His help, and the weakening of the power to resist mortal sin.


*Q. 294. How can we know a thought, word or deed to be sinful?*
  A. We can know a thought, word or deed to be sinful if it, or the neglect of it, is forbidden by any law of God or of His Church, or if it is opposed to any supernatural virtue.


*Q. 295. Which are the chief sources of sin?*
  A. The chief sources of sin are seven: 1.Pride, Covetousness, Lust, Anger, Gluttony, Envy, and Sloth, and they are commonly called capital sins.


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## blazingthru (Mar 16, 2012)

*Can you lose the gift of Salvation?* (Once saved always saved) 
A: No, if what you mean by that is lose your salvation like you can lose your shoe. God will never take it from us, but you can give it back. 
I found this is my studies and it made sense to me.


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## sidney (Mar 16, 2012)

makeupgirl said:


> With those he will say "Depart from me, I never knew you" those are the people who have claimed to be Christians but have no relationship with him.  They are the Pharaisses (sp?) if you will.  They are religious folk.  Remember religion is man's attempt to reach God.  So these people are doing everything they can to work to get into heaven, instead of what God tell us to do.  Cain and Abel is a good example like this.  Abel obeyed and offer the sacrifice that God wanted.  Cain tried to offer his own thing, thus disobeying God.  Their example is just one of the many examples leading up to the cross that will show how it's going to be, to show who is the church and who is of the world.   If we could lose our salvation, truly lose it, then the bible would say it without sugarcoating.  Plus, if we could lose our salvation, why would God put his Spirit in those who believe in him?  Plus, Jesus said it is finished when he was on the cross, where he conquered death, hell, and the grave and most of all sin.  He also died for past, present and future sins.  (yep that image of little makeupgirl stealing that cookie from grandma's cookie jar and present time makeupgirl cussing out in her mind that has ticked her off was shown then)  Even though the body of Christ are no longer sinners, we cannot escape sin.  We still have that sinful nature that is always going to restle for control.  This is why we was told to be filled with the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:16-17) Pray without ceasing; and 1 John 1:9.  We can't lose our sonship.  Just like when I make my mom mad, I don't lose my relationship with her; Im just briefly out of fellowship with her until I make things right and this is the same with our relationship with God.



I dont believe these were pharisees.  There is a scripture that says he died for his sheep and another where he told the pharisees they did Not know his voice because they were Not his sheep.


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## CoilyFields (Mar 16, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> @CoilyFields Thanks so much for laying it out thoroughly!  I agree with about 98% of what you said. I think there is one major point I'd differ on, and then there are some other detailed nuances that Catholicism adheres to.
> 
> *While I agree that we still deal with temptations and inclinations to sin (and at times commit sin), I believe that we can stop sinning, but not through our own power or effort, but through Christ's sanctifying grace.*
> 
> ...


 
@ Galadriel , I totally see where we differ in that 2%! lol. 

If one believes that a sinless state (interior holiness) can be achieved here on earth then it would lead to the conclusion that unless one achieves that sinless state (or close enough to it to go to purgatory in Catholicism) then salvation will not be theirs.

And I believe that as long as we are housed in these bodies of flesh we will not be sinless (this includes acts as well as the desire/inclination to break God's law). We are no longer slaves to sin, we are free from the penalty of sin but the war between flesh and spirit will not be concluded until the return of Jesus. This leads to the conclusion that only acceptance of Jesus Christ (who fulfilled the law) will bring salvation since we will never be able to fully keep the law. And since He holds the key to our salvation then it will not change based on our in/actions.

Thanks for outlining the differences between the sins that explain your stance on the topic!


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## loolalooh (Mar 17, 2012)

Whether one can lose his/her salvation may be a debate until the end of time.  One's thing is for certain, though.  *If you are "walking in the Spirit", you are on the right path ...*

Food for thought, ladies.  I came across this today:

*Galatians 5*

_16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 *But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.*

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[c] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[d] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that *those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.*

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And *those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh *with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another._


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## Crown (Mar 17, 2012)

Salvation is a gift.
But Salvation is also Victory (at the end).
And Salvation is an *I* concern (not you or we)

Some verses are not for the bride.

I can not lose my Salvation.

God is sovereign.

Rom. 8 : 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 *For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters*. 30 *And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified*.

Phil. 2 : 12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 *for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose*.


Some seem to be in the body, but they are not of the body, they don't have the right cloth.

Mat. 22 : 14 11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12 He asked, ‘*How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?*’ The man was speechless. 
   13 “Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 
   14 “*For many are invited, but few are chosen*.” 

Rev. 13 : 8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names *have not been written* in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.
Rev. 17 : 8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names *have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world* will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.


The weeds will lose for sure :
Mat. 13 : [FONT=&quot]24[FONT=&quot] Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 *When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared*. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]   27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]   28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]   “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ [/FONT]
  29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 *Let both grow together until the harvest*. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”


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## BostonMaria (Mar 17, 2012)

I'm confused now more than ever LOL


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## sidney (Mar 18, 2012)

BostonMaria said:


> I'm confused now more than ever LOL



BostonMaria.  There are a lot of points on each side.  Here is more to think about.  Romans 11:11-24

*Ingrafted Branches*

 11 Again I ask: *Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!* Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!  13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. 
 17 If* some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. *
 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness.* Otherwise, you also will be cut off.* 23 *And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. *24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! 



I think the key that I mentioned in my posted above, and the other ladies like Loolahlooh, Alicia, And Blazingthru have all mentioned is that we should not persist in unbelief.  God gives us an opportunity to get ourselves together.  If we are continuing in fellowship with him, there is nothing to be threatened about.  No one is losing their salvation because they sin, we all we be sinful.  But we do not persist in sinful life styles, and we do not reject God when situations of life try us, or we will forfeit our salvation.  HTH.

ETA: emphasis


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## SummerSolstice (Mar 18, 2012)

I just wanted to say...
there is a woman who is habitually rude and a gossip and she sits in front of me in the choir.
Is she going to hell for doing those sins repeatedly?
She must be because all sin is equal and if the person who has sex before marriage is going to hell then the rude meanie in the choir has to go.
I dunno though what do you guys think?
I know that I am not Him and I know not His ways... I would never be able to provide an answer aside from the fact that I am holding on to His grace like everyone else.


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## sidney (Mar 18, 2012)

SummerSolstice said:


> I just wanted to say...
> there is a woman who is habitually rude and a gossip and she sits in front of me in the choir.
> Is she going to hell for doing those sins repeatedly?
> She must be because all sin is equal and if the person who has sex before marriage is going to hell then the rude meanie in the choir has to go.
> ...


 
I don't know what he will do in regards to her, but we are all holding on to his grace. God says he came to save the sinners, not the righteous Matthew 9:13. Paul says of all the sinners, he was chief. We have hope, we just have to keep on believing and let our faith in him change our actions.

ETA: That lady sounds a bit too much, it's a sad thing that she's in the choir.  I would think she would have some joy from all the praising.


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## SummerSolstice (Mar 19, 2012)

She is a bit much... 
I won't try to pick and choose who is saved because that is not my job and no man can know regardless of how many bible verses we try to cite. We will never be able to decide for Him.
He views all sins as equal and if we are to pick and choose and try to account for EACH AND EVERY one in order to get to heaven, then how did His death cancel out the whole process in the temple that they had to do


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## Galadriel (Mar 19, 2012)

SummerSolstice said:


> I just wanted to say...
> there is a woman who is habitually rude and a gossip and she sits in front of me in the choir.
> Is she going to hell for doing those sins repeatedly?
> She must be because all sin is equal and if the person who has sex before marriage is going to hell then the rude meanie in the choir has to go.
> ...



I am of the view that not all sins are equal. Some sins are mortal, and some are venial.

1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he  should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does  not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying  that he should pray about that.

Matthew 18:5-9
“And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. But  if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it  would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck  and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
“Woe  to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such  things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! If  your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away.  It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two  hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And  if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is  better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be  thrown into the fire of hell.


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## SummerSolstice (Mar 19, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> *I am of the view that not all sins are equal. Some sins are mortal, and some are venial.
> *
> 1 John 5:16
> If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he  should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does  not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying  that he should pray about that.
> ...




Oh ok. We're definitely different there. I guess we will all have to as Him when we get there.


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