# Who's in Hell?



## Guitarhero (Jul 31, 2011)

I heard a priest today say that G-d is in hell, loving on the sinners.  Doesn't mean they aren't reaping just punishments.  I've heard other accounts of the nature of hell such that it's G-d's love that is the flame.  Basically, I was mistaken to think that G-d removed His presence away from those in hell.  What do you think?

Romans 8:38-39 (KJV)

     For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

     Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Of course, I assumed that this ended when one went to hell.    G-d's love is encompassing...even in hell.


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## moonglowdiva (Aug 1, 2011)

*Who's in hell? That simple. Sinners. What send you to hell? Disobedience to God's Holy Word. There will be two deaths. God is omniscient which means He's everywhere. Once you are in hell you will be there for eternity. There is no getting out.*

*According to Revelations *
*But the fearful, and unbeleiving, and the abominable, and murders, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth wit hfire and brimstone: which is the second death.*
*Revelation 21:8*

*And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.*
*Revelation 20:15*

*This will cause one to go to hell*
*36Master, which is the great commandment in the law? *

*37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. *
*38This is the first and great commandment. *
*39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. **40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.*
*Matthew 22:36-40 *
*That is the 10 commandment summed up. Jesus came to fulfill the Law and nothing has been taken away. It's finished.*

*Getting into heaven is very hard getting into hell is easy*
*Enter ye in at the strait (narrow) gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because stait is the gate, and narrow is the way, that leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Matthew 7:13-14*

*Also*
*Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves*
*Matthew7:15*

*You were right in your assessment just he does remove his presence from those that are in hell and the reprobate mind like Judas Iscariot and Cain. God is omniscient. God knows whats going on in hell.*

*ETA: I forgot to make mention of what Paul was talking about. He was talking about God's love for the believer while being here on this earth (not in hell) and  the struggles that believers will have to face. If God, the uncreated One, is for us, and no created thing can separate us, then as believers our security in Him is absolute. *

*I hope this helped.*


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## Guitarhero (Aug 1, 2011)

moonglowdiva said:


> You were right in your assessment just he does remove his presence from those that are in hell and the reprobate mind like Judas Iscariot and Cain. God is omniscient. God knows whats going on in hell.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/B]



It's not a question asking who goes to hell...it's about whether G-d is there present...of course, He does know what's happening everywhere...but my question/observation based upon what a priest said was that He doesn't remove even His love from hell.  I've heard it explained that it's His love which is the burning fire of hell.  Have you heard that one before?  It makes me wonder. :scratchch   When G-d withdraws His presence from a person...maybe the H-ly Spirit???   Like that.  Of course, He's still around...but maybe His influence is removed?  Dunno.


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## moonglowdiva (Aug 1, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> It's not a question asking who goes to hell...it's about whether G-d is there present...of course, He does know what's happening everywhere...but my question/observation based upon what a priest said was that He doesn't remove even His love from hell. I've heard it explained that it's His love which is the burning fire of hell. Have you heard that one before? It makes me wonder. :scratchch


 
*I had left that part out but I add it. God is a consuming fire. We sinner would burn up in His presence. God never intended for His creation to have to go to hell. It was originally intended for the devil and his cohorts. Back in Geneis between 1:1 and 1:2 something happend. Scripture doesn't tell us but you must use hermanutic(sp) to get the full meaning. But evil was present. That priest is wrong erplexed. Judas Iscariot is proof of that. I do not want you to believe something that is error to the Word. Have you ever read the Pilgram's Progress. It is fiction but taken entirely from scripture. It will put things into perspective because the author John Bunyun use actual character to convey the meaning of scripture. Yes God does take His presence away from the sinner on earth and in hell. Thoroughly search scriptures. But as long as youre on earth the Holy Spirit will convict the believe of sin until godly sorrow and true repentance occur. Once in hell youre in hell.*


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## Keen (Aug 1, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> It's not a question asking who goes to hell...it's about whether G-d is there present...of course, He does know what's happening everywhere...but my question/observation based upon what a priest said was that He doesn't remove even His love from hell.  I've heard it explained that it's His love which is the burning fire of hell.  Have you heard that one before?  It makes me wonder. :scratchch   When G-d withdraws His presence from a person...maybe the H-ly Spirit???   Like that.  Of course, He's still around...but maybe His influence is removed?  Dunno.



Check out the life of Padre Pio. Tried to PM you some specifics but you're not accepting PMs.


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## DaiseeDay (Aug 1, 2011)

I can tell you - no God is not there "loving on" the people there. Maybe it's a nice notion, but it's wrong. Sounds like the guy who tried to erase hell.


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## Rainbow Dash (Aug 1, 2011)

Hell is not a place of peace. It is separation from God and all His benefits.  It is a place of torment where the worm never dies. People in hell are not enjoying it.  Just like the rich man in hell, this describes the conditions. 

The rich man also died, and was buried. And in hell he lifted up his eyes, *being in torments*, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue for *I am tormented in this flame*. But Abraham said, "Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receiveth thy good tidings, and likewise Lazarus evil things: *But now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that they which would pass from hence to you, cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence." Luke 16*


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## ktykaty (Aug 1, 2011)

My answers are in red.



Guitarhero said:


> I heard a priest today say that G-d is in hell, loving on the sinners.  Doesn't mean they aren't reaping just punishments.  Was he talking about hell or about the Gehenna. These are 2 different place. Hell generally means the sojourn of the deads. The Gehenna is the lake of eternal fire where the unrepentant sinners & the devil will end up. The official position of the RCC is that we do not know exactly what happen after death for those who are not in Christ. What this priest shared was probably is personal opinion.
> 
> I've heard other accounts of the nature of hell such that it's G-d's love that is the flame. God's love is a purifying fire. I can see why people would think that it's His love that is the purifying fire of Hell. This is only a guess. We have no certitude about that.
> 
> Basically, I was mistaken to think that G-d removed His presence away from those in hell.  What do you think?



HTH.


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## Guitarhero (Aug 1, 2011)

moonglowdiva said:


> *I had left that part out but I add it. God is a consuming fire. We sinner would burn up in His presence. God never intended for His creation to have to go to hell. It was originally intended for the devil and his cohorts. Back in Geneis between 1:1 and 1:2 something happend. Scripture doesn't tell us but you must use hermanutic(sp) to get the full meaning. But evil was present. That priest is wrong erplexed. Judas Iscariot is proof of that. I do not want you to believe something that is error to the Word. Have you ever read the Pilgram's Progress. It is fiction but taken entirely from scripture. It will put things into perspective because the author John Bunyun use actual character to convey the meaning of scripture. Yes God does take His presence away from the sinner on earth and in hell. Thoroughly search scriptures. But as long as youre on earth the Holy Spirit will convict the believe of sin until godly sorrow and true repentance occur. Once in hell youre in hell.*



I'm not asking who is bound for hell...it's a question on how much G-d interacts with those in hell, basically.  I'm catholic, so no, I'm not familiar with those.  Yes, He is that consuming fire...and I think it's literally his love which is the fire in hell.  We believe in purgatory and that's been described as His purifying fire.  Lends a different perspective.  I should have asked that priest after services but I was in a hurry to get out of there. LOLOL


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## Guitarhero (Aug 1, 2011)

ktykaty said:


> My answers are in red.
> 
> "Gehenna"
> 
> HTH.



Well, he made a passing comment on hell.  His sermon was on finding Christ in every person.  But he made mention of someone who asked if G-d loved those who went to hell...and yes, He does.  He's actively loving those in hell...which makes that scripture give me a different perspective.  I had thought he had removed His presence from them.  It could have been his personal opinion, I dunno.  I'll ask my priest about it.   We don't know exactly, true.  Thanks!!


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## Guitarhero (Aug 1, 2011)

Keen said:


> Check out the life of Padre Pio. Tried to PM you some specifics but you're not accepting PMs.



I've tried but cannot undo that to accept PM's...have tried for a few months...I give up.    Maybe there is something stuck in my cache?  Shrugs.

I'll check into Padre Pio.  Could you copy and paste specifics on here?


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## divya (Aug 1, 2011)

Well, I believe that hell is the grave, based on the majority of translations of hell in the Scriptures. So I believe that all dead people are in hell, meaning the grave (with the exception of the few God raised in the Bible). Here's a good write up on the issues: http://www.smyrna.org/Studies/Death and the Grave.htm

Is anyone in "hellfire?" No. I believe that the "hellfire" that causes the second death described in Revelation will only occur at the very end when God destroys the wicked. That fire will not burn endlessly. The wicked will die a second and eternal death. Rev 21:8


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## Guitarhero (Aug 1, 2011)

divya said:


> Well, I believe that hell is the grave, based on the majority of translations of hell in the Scriptures. So I believe that all dead people are in hell, meaning the grave (with the exception of the few God raised in the Bible). Here's a good write up on the issues: http://www.smyrna.org/Studies/Death and the Grave.htm
> 
> Is anyone in "hellfire?" No. I believe that the "hellfire" that causes the second death described in Revelation will only occur at the very end when God destroys the wicked. That fire will not burn endlessly. The wicked will die a second and eternal death. Rev 21:8



But where is G-d on that side?  Is He there loving those souls, in your opinion?


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## makeupgirl (Aug 2, 2011)

God is definitely not in hell.  He is in his kingdom, the 3rd heaven preparing a place for his kids Aka the body/bride. 

No disrespect to the priest but dude need some serious bible study IMO


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## Guitarhero (Aug 2, 2011)

makeupgirl said:


> God is definitely not in hell.  He is in his kingdom, the 3rd heaven preparing a place for his kids Aka the body/bride.
> 
> No disrespect to the priest but dude need some serious bible study IMO



Priest have doctorates in theology and such...beyond your typical bible study   I think he's saying that His presence is still there.  Do we know definitively?  I don't think we do.  I'm still looking for studies on the issue.  I'm sure our position is probably most aligned with Thomas Aquinas etc.

I have yet to question my own priest about it.  But is it that far-fetched to think that He is not there?  If He's omniscient, then He knows what's going on there...in a sense, that means His mind is there, right?    Maybe saying that "G-d's presence is wherever or withdrawn" is largely figurative because I cannot imagine Him not being everywhere.  It would be beyond a black hole if He were not Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent in some corner of the universe and beyond....:scratchch


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## divya (Aug 4, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> But where is G-d on that side?  Is He there loving those souls, in your opinion?



Yes. God loves people enough not to force them to choose salvation. He allows all of us to choose live eternally with Him or to choose death. So even in the decision of the wicked to reject God's gift of eternal life, God loves them enough to allow to take that road.


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## Guitarhero (Aug 4, 2011)

divya said:


> Yes. God loves people enough not to force them to choose salvation. He allows all of us to choose live eternally with Him or to choose death. So even in the decision of the wicked to reject God's gift of eternal life, God loves them enough to allow to take that road.




After they take that road and all is final....I think we're seeing this from different points of views so that my question is being obscured...is G-d present there in hell with those who are suffering the punishments?  According to scripture, there is nothing that can separate man from His love.  Is He there in hell alongside of them?  He certainly knows what is going on.  But is He there actively loving them or has He turned His back on them?  Incidentally, loving someone does not mean removing punishment from them.  If G-d has literally removed himself from hell, then that's one place that He is not present...absolutely opposite of His nature as omnispresent.    The focus is not so much who will suffer the punishments but, rather, if G-d is there present with them.  Graces removed?  I'd say so...but still present.  Shrugs.  This is a tough theological question I just so happened upon.  I'm not saying anyone has the definitive answer...but if anyone has studied this, I'd like to know the points and where to find them.  Um, I'm not asking for someone to point me to scripture solely...but to a study of that in scripture.


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## divya (Aug 4, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> After they take that road and all is final....I think we're seeing this from different points of views so that my question is being obscured...is G-d present there in hell with those who are suffering the punishments?  According to scripture, there is nothing that can separate man from His love.  Is He there in hell alongside of them?  He certainly knows what is going on.  But is He there actively loving them or has He turned His back on them?  Incidentally, loving someone does not mean removing punishment from them.  If G-d has literally removed himself from hell, then that's one place that He is not present...absolutely opposite of His nature as omnispresent.    The focus is not so much who will suffer the punishments but, rather, if G-d is there present with them.  Graces removed?  I'd say so...but still present.  Shrugs.  This is a tough theological question I just so happened upon.  I'm not saying anyone has the definitive answer...but if anyone has studied this, I'd like to know the points and where to find them.  Um, I'm not asking for someone to point me to scripture solely...but to a study of that in scripture.



If I am understanding correctly, the analysis that you are looking for likely would be based on your beliefs about hell itself. Since I believe the hell is the grave and grave/death will be destroyed along with the wicked in the lake of fire according to the book of Revelation, then none of these questions would be relevant. God would have no need to be present in something that will not exist. Guess that doesn't answer your question in any way, but I do pray you find the answers to your questions.


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## song_of_serenity (Aug 4, 2011)

Some people are always trying to find loopholes out of the word, especially when eternal damnation and judgment are concerned.

How about this? Live right according to His word and you won't even HAVE to worry about this to that extent. Don't allow yourself to lift your eyes up in hell to find out.


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## Guitarhero (Aug 4, 2011)

divya said:


> If I am understanding correctly, the analysis that you are looking for likely would be based on your beliefs about hell itself. Since I believe the hell is the grave and grave/death will be destroyed along with the wicked in the lake of fire according to the book of Revelation, then none of these questions would be relevant. God would have no need to be present in something that will not exist. Guess that doesn't answer your question in any way, but I do pray you find the answers to your questions.



Ahhhhhh,.....I get your point now.  Sorry about that!  Interesting.  Question, where do people go after they die, to heaven?  So, in your faith, if it was "hell-bound," then the soul remained joined to the body in the ground?  Thanks for your prayer.


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## Guitarhero (Aug 4, 2011)

song_of_serenity said:


> Some people are always trying to find loopholes out of the word, especially when eternal damnation and judgment are concerned.
> 
> How about this? Live right according to His word and you won't even HAVE to worry about this to that extent. Don't allow yourself to lift your eyes up in hell to find out.



On second thought...you know, I must have edited 6 times to get my point across without insulting in retaliation and I've now resigned myself to only say that some of us actually enjoy asking the hard questions.  We just do.  Coming to Christ is not meant to be one boring ride.


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## pearlygurl (Aug 4, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> I heard a priest today say that G-d is in hell, loving on the sinners.  Doesn't mean they aren't reaping just punishments.  I've heard other accounts of the nature of hell such that it's G-d's love that is the flame.  Basically, I was mistaken to think that G-d removed His presence away from those in hell.  What do you think?
> 
> Romans 8:38-39 (KJV)
> 
> ...



Hey Guitarhero 

While reading your post Psalm 139 immediately popped into my head.  Here are verses 7-8

*7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
         Or where can I flee from Your presence?
 8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there;
         If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.*

Now I don't believe that God is "loving on" those souls who are in hell as that priest said but I do believe He is there.  I mean if we believe He's omnipresent (present *everywhere* at the same time) then why wouldn't He be there too?


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## Rainbow Dash (Aug 4, 2011)

pearlygurl said:


> Hey Guitarhero
> 
> While reading your post Psalm 139 immediately popped into my head. Here are verses 7-8
> 
> ...


 

This is a good. It simply means that we cannot hide from God's presence. There is simply not a place where we can hide from God. God, through His Spirit is omnipresent.

There is no place to flee from His presence. Yet, He is ruling in glory from His throne in heaven. It is from _there_ that “His eyes behold” the sons of men (Psalm 11:4).

We must also remember that, although God is omnipresent through His Spirit, we can become separated from Him. In fact, *we are warned, “your iniquities have separated you from your God; and your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He will not hear” (Isaiah 59:2). *


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## Guitarhero (Aug 4, 2011)

Health&hair28 said:


> This is a good. It simply means that we cannot hide from God's presence. There is simply not a place where we can hide from God. God, through His Spirit is omnipresent.
> 
> There is no place to flee from His presence. Yet, He is ruling in glory from His throne in heaven. It is from _there_ that “His eyes behold” the sons of men (Psalm 11:4).
> 
> We must also remember that, although God is omnipresent through His Spirit, we can become separated from Him. In fact, *we are warned, “your iniquities have separated you from your God; and your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He will not hear” (Isaiah 59:2). *



Yes, I fully comprehend the last sentence.  I had totally forgotten this scripture.  THANKS!!!!!!  If we only truly understood the depth of His love.  I'm telling you, that was a very profound thing the good priest said in his homily last week.  Thank you so much!


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## divya (Aug 5, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> Ahhhhhh,.....I get your point now.  Sorry about that!  Interesting.  Question, where do people go after they die, to heaven?  So, in your faith, if it was "hell-bound," then the soul remained joined to the body in the ground?  Thanks for your prayer.



In my faith, each living person is a soul, and there is no inner being that goes anywhere when you die. So as long as you have the breath of life in you, you are a soul. When we die, we all go to the grave. We wait in the grave for either the first resurrection (to eternal life) or the second resurrection (to the lake of fire and then eternal death). Thus my answers to your questions, which of course, wouldn't really address your questions in the manner you are seeking.

You're very welcome.


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## mieshashair (Aug 6, 2011)

What would be the purpose of going to hell if Gods love would still be present with us??? If his love would still surround us y waste time sending ppl there y not just go to heaven?

Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ap53TAWp-0&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Sent from my iPhone


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## Guitarhero (Aug 7, 2011)

mieshashair said:


> What would be the purpose of going to hell if Gods love would still be present with us??? If his love would still surround us y waste time sending ppl there y not just go to heaven?
> 
> Check out this video on YouTube:
> 
> ...



That's part of it...because nothing can separate His love from His creation.  I won't watch the video.  But if G-d is conscious of all everywhere, then He must be there as well.  I think we are confusing His love with feeling grace and blessings etc.  Hell is definitely a punishment.  I'm wondering even more if His love isn't that flame and the torments being so great as having rejected it during life.  They are on the other side of that love and it's punishing.  


Hopefully, some more catholics here will chime in because I'd like to explore the side of purgatory for those who are saved in the end but have unresolved sin that has to be removed.  That is also through the fire.  If there are some who are uncomfortable with this topic, I humbly ask you to pass.


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## mieshashair (Aug 7, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> That's part of it...because nothing can separate His love from His creation.  I won't watch the video.  But if G-d is conscious of all everywhere, then He must be there as well.  I think we are confusing His love with feeling grace and blessings etc.  Hell is definitely a punishment.  I'm wondering even more if His love isn't that flame and the torments being so great as having rejected it during life.  They are on the other side of that love and it's punishing.
> 
> 
> Hopefully, some more catholics here will chime in because I'd like to explore the side of purgatory for those who are saved in the end but have unresolved sin that has to be removed.  That is also through the fire.  If there are some who are uncomfortable with this topic, I humbly ask you to pass.



How could love be used as torment? Love and torment don't go together, torment comes from the devil. God does not torment, the flames on he'll are described in the bible as literal fire flames in several scriptures. I'm nit trying to be overbearing but I think that right now you probably feel comfortable not believing this. But even if U were right and the flame was possibly Gods love would you be ok with going to hell? I think watching the video could answer some questions for u.


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## proverbs31woman (Aug 8, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> Romans 8:38-39 (KJV)
> 
> For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
> 
> ...



I wondered about this scripture for a while too until I asked someone wiser than me about it and he said that it is a metaphor.  God isn't literally in Hell loving the souls that are there.  Not all of the Bible is to be taken literally.  For instance, Matthew 5:29 says,  "And if your right eye offend you, pluck it out, and cast it from you: for it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into hell.". Of course, Jesus wasn't telling them to literally pluck out there eye; it was a metaphor.  So, in the scripture you pointed out, God is saying that His live is greater than anything.  That doesn't mean His love is in Hell.  That's a place where souls are totally separated from God.  

If I were you, I would really seek God about it.  He won't lead you astray.  Be blessed! 

Side note question:  why do you put a space in God (i.e., G-d)?  I've never seen that before.  Im not trying to get off track...just curious.


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## proverbs31woman (Aug 8, 2011)

What you are saying is so true, Miesha.  A lot of people want to believe God is there comforting those in Hell, but that's far from the truth.  People need to know that once they make their bed in hell it's for eternity and there will be no more comfort.  The only way out of that is to commit your life to Jesus Christ.   He is the only way...not Buddha, Mary, Allah, etc.


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## Rainbow Dash (Aug 8, 2011)

Guitar, It seems as though you are trying to make hell a good place. If so, you are in deception. The bible describes hell. You will NOT be comforted in hell. It is eternal torment.


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## JinaRicci (Aug 8, 2011)

Good discussion.  Of course nothing escapes God.  God is a Spirit and He will know of their torment.  In Psalms 139:7-8 David isn't saying that if he is in hellfire, God will be there.  He is saying that he couldn't fly to the sky (not Heaven as in Paradise) or dig a hole in the ground below to escape God.  God's spirit is everywhere but his physical presence- no.  

The image that comes to mind when I hear that 'God is in hell, comforting sinners' reminds me of God in the fire with Daniel's 3 friends (Daniel 3).  These men chose not to bow down to other gods and in doing so chose the punishment of death by fire.  Remember the miracle of them not being even touched by the fire and the physical presence of God in the fire with them- visible to everyone.  God was physically there refusing to let those who remained true to Him come to harm. 

In contrast those who have chosen to be against God have also chosen death by fire and eternal separation from God.  In that fire, we know the ones who will physically be there are the devil, and all his workers and followers (Rev 20).   Jesus said in Matt 7:23 concerning the judgment day: "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."  

That indicates separation.  Rev 20:9 says that fire will come down from heaven and devour them.  The danger I see in thinking that God will physically be there in hell providing comfort makes it seem that it won't be so bad.  That much like the 3 Hebrew boys, God will protect.  How could it be bad if God is right there?  This doesn't communicate the urgent necessity of choosing to follow God.

Where will God physically be?  Rev 20:11 says 'On his great white throne' during judgment.  And afterwards, regarding the new heaven and the new earth Rev 21:3: *"And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God." *

Hope that helps the discussion. Happy to chat further.


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## Guitarhero (Aug 8, 2011)

JinaRicci;1397179

The image that comes to mind when I hear that [B said:
			
		

> 'God is in hell, comforting sinners' [/B]reminds me of God in the fire with Daniel's 3 friends (Daniel 3).  These men chose not to bow down to other gods and in doing so chose the punishment of death by fire.  Remember the miracle of them not being even touched by the fire and the physical presence of God in the fire with them- visible to everyone.  God was physically there refusing to let those who remained true to Him come to harm.
> 
> *In contrast those who have chosen to be against God have also chosen death by fire and eternal separation from God.*  In that fire, we know the ones who will physically be there are the devil, and all his workers and followers (Rev 20).   Jesus said in Matt 7:23 concerning the judgment day: "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
> 
> ...



Thanks for the input!!!!  But to the bolded, I never once made that claim.  I never said He would be providing comfort nor lessening their punishments.  I made it very clear that hell is a place for torment.  However, the love of G-d can still be there in those punishments.  I'm attempting to comprehend some of the depth of His love (which we will not, totally ) because even a parent has to deal punishments to his/her child.  They do not escape it but they are still loved.  Can a child go astray?  Oh, yes.  But the parent still loves Hi8s creation.  Now that brings me to a questions that kids often ask...does G-d love the devil.   

But I certainly comprehend the separation from man and G-d.  They do not cross over into heavenly grace.  I'm only explaining this again so people do not erroneously think I ever posed that position of "comforts of the final damned."  I never said it not did I ever imply it.  

One thing about G-d's dwelling place, He still rules the universe and beyond.  But this reminds me of the tabernacle in the desert, the temple in Jerusalem and the tabernacle of our church...the divine presence dwelling amongst us.  Emanuel...  Thanks for that scripture!!!


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## Guitarhero (Aug 8, 2011)

Health&hair28 said:


> Guitar, It seems as though you are trying to make hell a good place. If so, you are in deception. The bible describes hell. You will NOT be comforted in hell. It is eternal torment.



I am very clear in my posts.  Perhaps people are not accustomed to dissecting scripture nor asking hardline questions that might appear to border heresy.  You are horribly misquoting and miscontruing...totally misrepresenting what I said.  You need only to actually READ what I wrote or pass the discussion.  I do not say this in anger, but I am pleading with you to backtrack and read what is documented, please.    You do not at all comprehend this discussion and I'm sorry about that.  But do not attribute to me what was NEVER said because it's unfair.  Love does not mean removal of punishments.  If His love is eternal for each of us, then it is eternal.  Maybe He feels loss with every soul?  I think that love never ends.  But His punishments are clear as day.


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## Guitarhero (Aug 8, 2011)

mieshashair said:


> How could love be used as torment? Love and torment don't go together, torment comes from the devil. God does not torment, the flames on he'll are described in the bible as literal fire flames in several scriptures. I'm nit trying to be overbearing but I think that right now you probably feel comfortable not believing this. But even if U were right and the flame was possibly Gods love would you be ok with going to hell? I think watching the video could answer some questions for u.



  I'm just exploring the case that it might be true.  None of us truly know right now.  I'm rather dismayed at some of the responses but I know that people don't always read the entire thread before commenting.  It's just that some have misquoted me and others are running from that which they THINK I said.  Not at all.  Well, that's what I'm getting to.  His love is a burning fire.  

Hebrews 12:29 for our "God is a consuming fire."  

Gill exploration of the bible

*For our God is a consuming fire*. Either God personally considered, God in the person of Christ; so the Shechinah, with the Jews, is called a consuming fire (n). Christ is truly God, and he is our God and Lord; and though he is full of grace and mercy, yet he will appear in great wrath to his enemies, who will not have him to reign over them: or rather God essentially considered; whose God he is, and in what sense, and how he comes to be so; see Gill on Hebrews 8:10, what is here said of him, that he is a consuming fire, may be understood of his jealousy in matters of worship, Deuteronomy 4:23, and so carries in it a reason why he is to be served acceptably, with reverence and godly fear.

This is one reason I truly wish that more catholics or orthodox would chime in..they usually do over in the OT only  because the punishments that the saved will endure if they die unrepented of any sin (non-grave) are also going to be purified with His fire...and that is explained as G-d's love.  We cannot, even as the saved, appear before Him unless all of that sin is repented of.  It's forgiven, but we have to actively deal with it.  This is the concept of purgatory which protestants do not understand nor believe for the most part.  I can understand that, though.  

So, burning fire...even His wrath is jealous for us to stay on His side of receiving grace...for us to love and accept His love and His way.  He never stops loving the sinners.  But that is the difficult concept in how punishing someone can still be love for the sinner.  The final choice is made so the just punishments.  But I have NEVER said that hell is comforted.


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## JinaRicci (Aug 8, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> Thanks for the input!!!! *But to the bolded, I never once made that claim. I never said He would be providing comfort nor lessening their punishments. I made it very clear that hell is a place for torment. *However, the love of G-d can still be there in those punishments. I'm attempting to comprehend some of the depth of His love (which we will not, totally ) because even a parent has to deal punishments to his/her child. They do not escape it but they are still loved. Can a child go astray? Oh, yes. But the parent still loves Hi8s creation. Now that brings me to a questions that kids often ask...does G-d love the devil.
> 
> But I certainly comprehend the separation from man and G-d. They do not cross over into heavenly grace. I'm only explaining this again so people do not erroneously think I ever posed that position of "comforts of the final damned." I never said it not did I ever imply it.
> 
> One thing about G-d's dwelling place, He still rules the universe and beyond. But this reminds me of the tabernacle in the desert, the temple in Jerusalem and the tabernacle of our church...the divine presence dwelling amongst us. Emanuel... Thanks for that scripture!!!


 
You're right. I should have made that clear. It's only the image that comes to mind for me. It's like I think if He is there then that softens the blow. Kind of like your mom holding you while you get a shot. But I get what you're saying. Happy to help.


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## Rainbow Dash (Aug 8, 2011)

If you want to realize the depth of His love, it is in what He did on the Cross. What Christ did on the cross demonstrates God's love for mankind. If we receive it, we are saved from eternal damnation. That is love. His love never ends and it is not in Hell. His love is not felt in Hell. It is separation from God. Scripture tells us there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Oh and I comprehend the discussion.


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## proverbs31woman (Aug 8, 2011)

Health&hair28 said:


> If you want to realize the depth of His love, it is in what He did on the Cross. What Christ did on the cross demonstrates God's love for mankind. If we receive it, we are saved from eternal damnation. That is love. His love never ends and it is not in Hell. His love is not felt in Hell. It is separation from God. Scripture tells us there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.



I agree with this.  Ther is NO pergutory or any other way to God, but through His son Jesus Christ.  Many people choose to believe that because the thought of Hell is too much to bear.

If you are not comfortable with the answers you are receiving here, then you really need to seek God about it.  he won't lead you astray.  I think it's good that you are inquisitive about this, but it seems like this discussion is not giving you the answers you need, so turn to Him.  Seek him through prayer and His word.


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## proverbs31woman (Aug 8, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> This is one reason I truly wish that more catholics or orthodox would chime in..they usually do over in the OT only  because the punishments that the saved will endure if they die unrepented of any sin (non-grave) are also going to be purified with His fire...and that is explained as G-d's love.  We cannot, even as the saved, appear before Him unless all of that sin is repented of.  It's forgiven, but we have to actively deal with it.  This is the concept of purgatory which protestants do not understand nor believe for the most part.  I can understand that, though.



It seems as if you already have a certain belief that you are holding onto, and you are hoping that someone (i.e., a catholic or orthodox) will back you up.  You really need to take heed to what has been said, and not take it for granted that there is a pergutory.  That's not biblical.  That's something that people have contrued only to make themselves feel content about dying.  The only way to be saved is through Jesus Christ.  I know that saying that may sound offensive, but that is the truth.  You can be free of this if you trully turn to God about this.  I think all of the posts on here are because we sincerelycare about you and wouldn't want you to be deceived.  Only Satan would want someone to believe something that is not in the Bible.  He's the father of all lies.


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## Shimmie (Aug 8, 2011)

proverbs31woman said:


> *It seems as if you already have a certain belief that you are holding onto, and you are hoping that someone (i.e., a catholic or orthodox) will back you up.  You really need to take heed to what has been said, and not take it for granted that there is a pergutory.  That's not biblical.  That's something that people have contrued only to make themselves feel content about dying.  The only way to be saved is through Jesus Christ.  I know that saying that may sound offensive, but that is the truth.  You can be free of this if you trully turn to God about this.  *
> 
> *I think all of the posts on here are because we sincerelycare about you and wouldn't want you to be deceived. * Only Satan would want someone to believe something that is not in the Bible.  He's the father of all lies.



Beautiful words from your heart...


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## Guitarhero (Aug 8, 2011)

Health&hair28 said:


> If you want to realize the depth of His love, it is in what He did on the Cross. What Christ did on the cross demonstrates God's love for mankind. If we receive it, we are saved from eternal damnation. That is love. His love never ends and it is not in Hell. His love is not felt in Hell. It is separation from God. Scripture tells us there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Oh and I comprehend the discussion.



I understand your point of view and am fully aware of the cross.  If you comprehend, then please do not misconstrue my question and meaning as it is unfair.  If you disagree, that's one thing but to turn another's words around and attribute to them something they have not at all said and, on top of that, attempt to "introduce Christ,"  is wrong.  I am only interested in exploring that one concept...only that.   Our disagreement lies around the concept of what His love entails and what that full separation entails...which is why I asked the question. If you think I'm confused about hell, I can assure you, I am not.  Again, I am only exploring the concept based upon the events mentioned in the original post.  I have nothing to do with what others "thought" I was asking.  I was very clear.  Lastly, I am not opposed to people disagreeing - hence, the discussion.  But I will not withstand someone misconstruing my words and attempting to tell me I'm trying to make hell easier.


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## Guitarhero (Aug 8, 2011)

proverbs31woman said:


> It seems as if you already have a certain belief that you are holding onto, and you are hoping that someone (i.e., a catholic or orthodox) will back you up.  You really need to take heed to what has been said, and not take it for granted that there is a pergutory.  That's not biblical.  That's something that people have contrued only to make themselves feel content about dying.  The only way to be saved is through Jesus Christ.  I know that saying that may sound offensive, but that is the truth.  You can be free of this if you trully turn to God about this.  I think all of the posts on here are because we sincerelycare about you and wouldn't want you to be deceived.  Only Satan would want someone to believe something that is not in the Bible.  He's the father of all lies.



.............Believe what you will.  In the end, there is abundant grace and I know which side I'm on.    I wish you well.  You might wish to leave the unfair accusations out and apply true exegesis or apologetics first.  Disagreements don't bother me, it's saying someone is deceived because they look deeply into the various meanings of scripture, something that your church has benefited from, directly via the church councils of the early Church Fathers.  We all derive from that.


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## Rainbow Dash (Aug 8, 2011)

God is not in hell loving on people.
There is no mention of purgatory in scripture.
The bible tells us that hell was for the devil and fallen angels or demons.
Christ came to redeem fallen mankind from the penalty of sin, which is hell and the lake of fire.
Your priest was not teaching based upon God's word.
Hell is Full separation from God. Hell is the worst, most horrible place to be.
God is Not there with people in hell. He is aware that they are there.


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## Guitarhero (Aug 8, 2011)

Thanks Health&Hair28, you can leave it at that.  I appreciate your participation but the focus is not being abtained.  It's distracting to have to continually go over other theological points that might not be familiar to you and others and have the topic derailed over and over again.  I'm not going to post in this thread again but I certainly appreciate you mean well .


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## Galadriel (Aug 8, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> I heard a priest today say that G-d is in hell, loving on the sinners.  Doesn't mean they aren't reaping just punishments.  I've heard other accounts of the nature of hell such that it's G-d's love that is the flame.  Basically, I was mistaken to think that G-d removed His presence away from those in hell.  What do you think?
> 
> Romans 8:38-39 (KJV)
> 
> ...





I can understand the gist of your question in terms of God's omnipresence and omniscience, but I would say that there is no Divine Love felt or perceived by those in hell because (1) the nature of the souls in hell completely lack grace and (2) even if they could feel it, it would be a torture in and of itself to them.

ETA: Guitarhero remember, that hell is also deprivation of the Beatific Vision


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## Guitarhero (Aug 8, 2011)

It's the deprivation of...but what about on G-d's side?  I sure wished I had stuck around to ask this of the good priest.  I wonder what he is taking this from.  What about the source of the fire in hell?  That's initially what I thought he was referring to, initially - that of His enduring love despite their just punishments and torments...that, perhaps, their rejection of him will ultimately meet up with that consuming fire of the love they should have accepted but are eternally in opposition to, thus eternal sufferings?    I'm trying to figure it out from the tidbit he gave.  

For purgatory, we know that it is His love and although they are going through purification, they are not separate from G-d - but it is still unbearable lol.  

Deprivation of the Beatific Vision...going to research from that point.  Thanks, Galadriel.  Which of the early Church Fathers wrote most on hell?


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## proverbs31woman (Aug 8, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> .............Believe what you will.  In the end, there is abundant grace and I know which side I'm on.    I wish you well.  You might wish to leave the unfair accusations out and apply true exegesis or apologetics first.  Disagreements don't bother me, it's saying someone is deceived because they look deeply into the various meanings of scripture, something that your church has benefited from, directly via the church councils of the early Church Fathers.  We all derive from that.



The existence of hell shouldn't lead anyone to believe that God does not have abundant grace.  If someone makes their bed in hell, they have received so many chances to come to Him and have refused to do so for whatever reason.  In spite of that, He is still full of grace and mercy.  You've received plenty of exegesis in this thread, but it seems as if you want believe something other than the truth.  Like most people on here, I don't want you to believe a lie and I would hate for anyone else to see this thread and believe that there is a pergutory that they can look forward to for purification rather than rely on the blood of Christ to purify them before it's too late.

  I'm not sure why you seem reluctant to seek God about this rather than rely on what others (even those on this board) have said.  The little we know (even the little the church fathers knew) cannot compare to God's knowledge.  Seek Him.  There's no power in the church fathers; the only power comes from Jesus Christ.


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## divya (Aug 9, 2011)

Perhaps an separate thread on the different beliefs about hell that exist within Christianity would be helpful, if we don't have one already...


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## Galadriel (Aug 9, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> It's the deprivation of...but what about on G-d's side?  I sure wished I had stuck around to ask this of the good priest.  I wonder what he is taking this from.



Guitarhero I don't have the entire context of the talk/homily but I'm guessing that he perhaps wanted to point out that God is omniscient and omnipresent, and the just punishments in hell are a reflection of His love.

I remember reading Dante's "Inferno" in college and we were questioning why part of the inscription to the Gate of Hell said "Divine Love Wrought Me" --we often tend to separate justice and morality from love, but God does not. Remember the greatest commandments are to love God with your entire mind, strength, and being--and to love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus said if we did this, we'd be following all of the Commandments. 

Often, when we stand up for goodness or justice, how many times are we accused of being "hateful," or "intolerant," etc.? Our morally bankrupt society equates lukewarm moral relativity with love--this is an error. Love and justice, love and morality, love and goodness, go hand-in-hand with one another. Hell isn't the result of being hated by God, but a result of one's utter rejection of Him and the State of Grace.

Perhaps this was where he was coming from? 




Guitarhero said:


> What about the source of the fire in hell?  That's initially what I thought he was referring to, initially - that of His enduring love despite their just punishments and torments...that, perhaps, their rejection of him will ultimately meet up with that consuming fire of the love they should have accepted but are eternally in opposition to, thus eternal sufferings?    I'm trying to figure it out from the tidbit he gave.



Hmm, I definitely don't want to put words into his mouth since I wasn't there, but I do understand that being deprived of God's presence, love, and His very Face are part of the punishment of hell. I also think the KNOWLEDGE that they have chosen to reject God and are now in hell is also part of the punishment.

Hence we pray as taught to us through Our Lady of Fatima, "Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those who are in most need of Your Mercy."




Guitarhero said:


> For purgatory, we know that it is His love and although they are going through purification, they are not separate from G-d - but it is still unbearable lol.



Yes, the purification or purgation endured by the souls in purgatory are different than the pain endured via the fires of hell.



Guitarhero said:


> Deprivation of the Beatific Vision...going to research from that point.  Thanks, Galadriel.  Which of the early Church Fathers wrote most on hell?




Definitely look up St. Augustine of Hippo. 
Also, here are some sites:

http://www.theveritasproject.org/hell---early-church-fathers.html

http://www.catholic.com/library/Hell_There_Is.asp


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## Galadriel (Aug 9, 2011)

proverbs31woman said:


> The existence of hell shouldn't lead anyone to believe that God does not have abundant grace.  If someone makes their bed in hell, they have received so many chances to come to Him and have refused to do so for whatever reason.  In spite of that, He is still full of grace and mercy.  You've received plenty of exegesis in this thread, but it seems as if you want believe something other than the truth.  Like most people on here, I don't want you to believe a lie and I would hate for anyone else to see this thread and believe that there is a pergutory that they can look forward to for purification rather than rely on the blood of Christ to purify them before it's too late.



proverbs31woman, I don't think she believes that one can escape out of hell or be redeemed from hell. She was asking what was the nature of the punishments in hell and whether or not part of it was an aversion to feeling or perceiving God's presence.

Purgatory is simply the final purification of the soul that is ALREADY heaven-bound. Scripture makes it clear that nothing imperfect or flawed enters heaven--thus upon entering heaven we would have been purified. This is made possible *by* Christ and His Sacrifice on the Cross, not in spite of it. Purgatory is not only supported by Scripture, but also early Christians and Church Fathers who were closest to the Apostles.




proverbs31woman said:


> I'm not sure why you seem reluctant to seek God about this rather than rely on what others (even those on this board) have said.  The little we know (even the little the church fathers knew) cannot compare to God's knowledge.  Seek Him.  There's no power in the church fathers; the only power comes from Jesus Christ.



God, and Christ, gave us a Church for a reason. He established a teaching and leading authority within His Church so that the entirety of His Revelation (The Old Testament, New Testament and Apostles' teachings) could be safeguarded, taught, explained, and passed on.

You say "seek God's knowledge alone," but what do you mean by that? John Calvin did that and came up with Calvinism, which teaches that you are either predestined to heaven or hell and you have have no free will or choice. John Wesley (the founder of Methodism) did the same and clashed with Calvin, even to the point of Calvinists and Methodists (hundreds of years ago in Europe) actually fighting against each other. Which one is right? The Calvinist or the Methodist? Who was the Holy Spirit speaking to or guiding?

This is the problem with "Sola Scriptura" and the subjective individual Bible interpretations that come along with it. You get 40,000 different denominations with different interpretations, all claiming that the Holy Spirit taught them and guided them.

On the other hand, you have only ONE, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church--why? Because for the last 2,000 years we have kept, safeguarded, and passed down the Bible and the Apostles' teachings through the Successors of the Apostles (the Bishops).


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## Guitarhero (Aug 9, 2011)

proverbs31woman said:


> *I'm not sure why you seem reluctant to seek God about this rather than rely on what others (even those on this board) have said.  *The little we know (even the little the church fathers knew) cannot compare to God's knowledge.  Seek Him.  There's no power in the church fathers; the only power comes from Jesus Christ.



Because we are a community of believers with the Church as the head and the Magisterium or teaching authority as the guard of our faith.  This is how we attain uniformity in the truth.  We do not operate independently of the community in beliefs and worship and we certainly do not entertain the thought that everyone can interpret for himself the meaning of scripture.  The learning body has always been important and has its precedence in the "Old Testament" faith.  Without the promise of the H-ly Spirit leading the Church, we would be doomed to ignorance.  The early Church Fathers have been the bastion of the faith of which every single christian church has benefited.  You confuse ignorance of that which you do not know to being unsaved and I can comprehend this.   The scriptures have various levels of meaning and on some subjects, it is a bit silent.  Thirst for  study is in my genes and has always been important to me.  It's a principle I choose to live by every single day and  I don't wish it to cease.  

The greatest ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about ~Unknown~

Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn. ~Benjamin Franklin~

Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
~Confucius~

Hosea 4: 6 (KJV) My people perish from a lack of knowledge.  ~HaShem, the Hebrew G-d of the Bible~


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## Guitarhero (Aug 9, 2011)

I wonder sometimes....but I do know that we don't dare attempt to determine what G-d's final plans or judgments are.  There's a lot of humility that can be learned in the entire christian community.  It would seem that a lot of the public shame is part of that lesson.  We should all take heed.


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## proverbs31woman (Aug 9, 2011)

I think your thirst for knowledge is great, but you are looking in the wrong direction. Again, I say seek God. Maybe the catholic church has benefited from the church fathers, but my church and true Christian churches base their faith on belief in Jesus Christ. *I'm not claiming that you are unsaved, and I'm not ignorant about what you are talking about. *I just know that what you are referring to as being a part of a false religion because it's contrary to the word of God. *If your faith is based on the church fathers then you are definitely out of touch with the truth. **

There is NO purgatory.  That is all a part of a false doctrine.  Do not be deceived.  The only way to God is through belief in Jesus Christ, and when you die, you go to Heaven or Hell, nothing in between.


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## divya (Aug 9, 2011)

While I may not be doctrinally in agreement with either of you ladies (Guitarhero & Proverbs31woman) or most in this thread, I just want to say that it is truly something to see how our views of Christianity and specifically Christian history can differ...wow. This thread is something else!


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## Galadriel (Aug 9, 2011)

proverbs31woman said:


> but my church and true Christian churches base their faith on belief in Jesus Christ.



Hmm, even though among these 40,000+ churches they teach conflicting doctrine? Which one of these denominations is right and being led by the Holy Spirit? Lutherans? Methodists? Calvinists? Presbyterians? Anglicans? Baptists? Seventh Day Adventists?




proverbs31woman said:


> There is NO purgatory.  That is all a part of a false doctrine.  Do not be deceived.



It's in Scripture. It's been explained and taught by Bishops who studied under the Apostles themselves and passed down for the past 2,000 years. In fact, the only time anyone taught otherwise was 500 years ago in Europe--the Protestant Reformation.


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## Guitarhero (Aug 9, 2011)

I know that "kaddish" is said for a departed family member for 11 months after the death.  It's explained that the prayers are for the living.  I believe this points to the communion of the saints/souls between this world and the next.  But I believe it is also prayers for the soul such that person will enter the next level to heaven after his purgation.  In mystical judaism, it's called Gehinnon.
I had a lot of problems believing in purgatory until it was properly explained to me.  Over time, I see why it's necessary to the soul.  Of course, I hope those here know that souls can and do go directly to heaven, especially martyrs.


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## Guitarhero (Aug 9, 2011)

divya said:


> While I may not be doctrinally in agreement with either of you ladies (Guitarhero & Proverbs31woman) or most in this thread, I just want to say that it is truly something to see how our views of Christianity and specifically Christian history can differ...wow. This thread is something else!



I agree and this is part of my life's work to bring differing people (by creed, nationality, religion, culture) together to explore each other's viewpoints.  This is essential for mutual respect and hopefully, we all realize that how we view each other will determine ultimately how we treat one another.  It's all about repairing the world.  Of course, we are in Christ and see Him as the way (even we interpret how that ultimately works out differently) but we could certainly come a long way in knowing about each other from the source.  I so love this.


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## ktykaty (Aug 9, 2011)

According to the Catechism, those in hell are separated from God. It's their own sins that separate them from God. I believe that God still loves those who are in hell. He is love, He does not stop loving anyone, no matter what the sins. Our sins can separate us from the grace of God but not from the love of God. For me that's what Paul means in Romans 8. It's in God nature to love.

"1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." *The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God*, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs."

Eternal separation from God as opposed to eternal communion with God.
My Priest suggested that maybe the punishment in hell was to know that because of our choices, we could not spend eternity in the loving presence of God.

Here are 2 links on god unconditional love

http://blog.adw.org/2010/02/is-gods-love-really-unconditional/
http://blog.adw.org/2011/02/does-god-love-the-souls-in-hell-then-why-do-they-suffer/


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## Rainbow Dash (Aug 9, 2011)

There is no mention of purgatory in scripture.

The rich man that died and went to hell in Luke 16, prayed to Father Abraham, but Abraham told him that his fate was sealed. It could not be changed. Luke 16:22-26

_Luke 16:22-26 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell (what happened to purgatory?) he lift up his eyes, *being in torments*, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.... _

Purgatory is the safety net when you die. You don’t go to Hell. You go (to Purgatory) and get things sorted out and finally get to Heaven if you’ve been good. *Simply not in the Word of God.*

“The *blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin*” *and “all unrighteousness”* (1 John 1:7, 9). John did not say “some” sins or “most” sins, but all sins! 

God’s Word also declares, “All things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness” (Hebrews 9:22).

When Jesus “made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high” (Hebrews 1:3). 

Those who desire to have their sins purged need to trust Jesus Christ, not a place. The blood of Christ is the only cleansing agent for sin.

"This good news was affirmed by the Lord Jesus with the promise He gave to the repentant thief at Calvary. He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43). This habitual sinner did not need a fire to purge his sins. 

Purgatory is a travesty on the justice of God and a disgraceful fabrication that robs Christ Jesus of His glory and honor. 

*Christ **alone satisfied divine justice, once and for all, by the perfect and finished sacrifice of Himself."*

*It is Christ alone that will present us “faultless before the presence of his glory” (Jude 24).*


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## ktykaty (Aug 9, 2011)

Health&hair28 said:


> Purgatory is the safety net when you die. You don’t go to Hell. You go (to Purgatory) and get things sorted out and finally get to Heaven if you’ve been good. *Simply not in the Word of God.*



You are objecting to what *You* *believe* the Catholic Church is teaching on purgatory and not on the teaching of our Church. 
The teaching of the Catholic Church on purgatory is pretty clear: "Those who die in God's grace and friendship  imperfectly purified, although they are assured of their eternal  salvation, undergo a purification after death, so as to achieve the  holiness necessary to enter the joy of God." Purgatory is for the saints. It is not a second chance. To enter purgatory you have to already be a saint.





> Those who desire to have their sins purged need to trust Jesus Christ, not a place. The blood of Christ is the only cleansing agent for sin.
> 
> "This good news was affirmed by the Lord Jesus with the promise He gave to the repentant thief at Calvary. He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43). This habitual sinner did not need a fire to purge his sins.


Purgatory is not a place, it's a state. It is Jesus who takes us through purgatory. The cleansing fire of purgatory is the love of God. 

Here are some scriptures talking of purification by fire 
"If the work which any man has built on the foundation [which is       Christ]  survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will       suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire"       (1 Cor 3: 14-15). 

  “I  will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then  suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger  of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the LORD Almighty. 
 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he  appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap. He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the  Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have  men who will bring offerings in righteousness, and the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be acceptable to the LORD, as in days gone by, as in former years.
Malachi 3:1-4


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## Rainbow Dash (Aug 9, 2011)

ktykaty said:


> You are objecting to what *You* *believe* the Catholic Church is teaching on purgatory and not on the teaching of our Church.
> The teaching of the Catholic Church on purgatory is pretty clear: "Those who die in God's grace and friendship imperfectly purified, although they are assured of their eternal salvation, undergo a purification after death, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of God." Purgatory is for the saints. It is not a second chance. To enter purgatory you have to already be a saint.
> 
> Purgatory is not a place, it's a state. It is Jesus who takes us through purgatory. The cleansing fire of purgatory is the love of God.
> ...


 

1 Corinthians 3:15 which says: “If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” *Clearly, the context of this verse is the testing of a man’s works by fire. The works that survive are the ones done for the glory of Christ and are called gold, silver and precious stones* (Ephesians 2:10). All the other superfluous works are burned in fire and are called wood, hay and stubble. *It is not man’s sins that are being purged, it is man’s spurious works that being burned and destroyed.*

*Malachi 3:1-4* is a promise of the coming of the Messiah,Jesus Christ, and of his forerunner John the Baptist. A reproof of the Jews for their corrupting God’s ordinances and sacrilegiously robbing him of his dues, with a charge to them to amend this matter, and a promise that, if they did, God would return in mercy to them He shall be like a refiner’s fire, which separates between the gold and the dross by melting the ore, or like fuller’s soap, which with much rubbing fetches the spots out of the cloth. Christ came to discover men, that the thoughts of many hearts might be revealed, to distinguish men, to separate between the precious and the vile,to send fire on the earth, not peace, but rather division, and that the things which cannot be shaken might remain. See what the effect of the trial will be that shall be made by the gospel. 

He shall sit as a refiner. Christ by his gospel shall purify and reform his church, and by his Spirit working with it shall regenerate and cleanse  it; for to this end he gave himself for the church, that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word. 

*God’s Word leaves absolutely no possibility for sin to be purged away by anything other than the blood of Jesus Christ.*

But the truth was that His death did everything! He paid the price in full. The Bible even says, *"I write these things unto you so that you may know you have eternal life."* (1 John 5:13)

*Jesus said "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."* (John 5:24)


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## Galadriel (Aug 9, 2011)

To piggyback off of ktykaty's earlier post:

"All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven" (CCC 1030). 

What does it mean to "die in God’s grace and friendship"? 

The language of dying in God’s grace is another way of saying that when we die we must have faith in Christ, as Romans 10:9 says. But Paul did not intend his words in this text to be taken as the complete story. We have to interpret one text in the Bible in the light of the whole Bible.

1 Corinthians 3:14–15: "If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." The Latinate word purgatory means a purgation or burning by fire. Paul in these verses refers to a purgation process whereby a man is saved even though his works are burned away. This is precisely what the Catholic Church teaches. A person at death who still has personal faults must go through a period of purgation in order to be made clean, for nothing unclean will enter heaven (cf. Rev. 21:27).

The most obvious Biblical reference to purgatory is 2 Maccabees 12:40–45. When Judas prays and has sacrifices offered for soldiers who died in battle, he is commended for acting "very well and honorably."

The Church doesn’t exclude the possibility that purgatory could be an instantaneous purification, but there are indications in the Bible that souls do exist in some state that is neither heaven nor hell. Look at 1 Peter 3:19–20. These verses show Jesus preaching to "to the spirits in prison." The "prison" cannot be heaven, because the people there do not need to have the Gospel preached to them. It cannot be hell, because the souls in hell cannot repent. It must be something else (purgatory).

The idea of purgatory, when properly understood, is entirely consistent with the love of God. God wants us to be perfect (cf. Matt. 5:48). If we are not perfected by the time we die, we will be perfected in purgatory. He loves us too much to allow us to be less than what he created us to be. Purgatory is not about an angry God inflicting punishment upon his creatures. It is about a loving Father who "disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness" (Heb. 12:10).


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## Galadriel (Aug 9, 2011)

Health&hair28 said:


> *God’s Word leaves absolutely no possibility for sin to be purged away by anything other than the blood of Jesus Christ.*



Erm...who said that it WASN'T the Blood of Christ accomplishing this? 

You know , I always make it a point to actually read/study something before trying to talk about/criticize it--but that's just me.


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## Rainbow Dash (Aug 9, 2011)

Galadriel said:


> Erm...who said that it WASN'T the Blood of Christ accomplishing this?
> 
> You know , I always make it a point to actually read/study something before trying to talk about/criticize it--but that's just me.


 
@Galadriel

I understand what we are discussing. It does not line up with the word of God. Purgatory is not in line with God's word. There is no need for you to try to act like I don't understand. Now lets look below... 

*Jesus said "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."* (John 5:24) 

^^There is no in between in this scripture.

There is no temporary holding or state of mind. Jesus told the thief on the cross that asked Him to save Him, that He would be in Paradise with Him* TODAY*. Not after purgatory.

*1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison. Notice the scripture says He went... not He is still doing this. Read Hebrews 1:3 It says Christ purged our sins and sat down on the right hand of God.*

“Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, *when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.”* Hebrews 1:3 


If humand sufferings were capable of satisfying the Divine Justice, then what was the need for Jesus Christ death on cross? His death, burial, and resurrection took care of that. 

*You can not satisfy Divine Justice through good works or punishments, it is only through the precious Blood of Jesus Christ. *


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## Guitarhero (Aug 9, 2011)

Health&hair28 said:


> Purgatory is the safety net when you die. You don’t go to Hell. You go (to Purgatory) and get things sorted out and finally get to Heaven if you’ve been good. *Simply not in the Word of God.*
> 
> ]



  Nooooo....purgatory is those souls departed with unrepented venial sin...they are in a state of grace or "saved."  But they cannot enter into the presence of G-d without repenting or being purged of the effect and stain of those sins.   They are purified through the blood of Jesus as it has been done..finished.  This is not a new concept and derives from judaism.  Jesus didn't change the law one bit.   It's not sin that forever separates a soul from saving grace or the beatific vision i.e. those in hell's punishments.    Purgatory is definitely not a safety net for the damned.  Venial sin...mortal sin...those are very different and it is the latter that causes a departed soul unrepented to suffer hell.  It is serious sin that was committed with complete knowledge of its dangers.  This is why we go to confession to restore ourselves to a state of grace.  Of course, even if you don't commit a mortal sin, you can still go to confession.  It helps us examine ourselves to the nth degree, much like the concept of kashering or kosher.  You examine all for impurities or blemish.  You make amends and are absolved with a contrite heart.  Incidentally, it's the H-ly Spirit that convicts a person to confess his sins.  So, it's biblical.


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## Guitarhero (Aug 9, 2011)

proverbs31woman said:


> I think your thirst for knowledge is great, but you are looking in the wrong direction. Again, I say seek God. Maybe the catholic church has benefited from the church fathers, but my church and true Christian churches base their faith on belief in Jesus Christ. *I'm not claiming that you are unsaved, and I'm not ignorant about what you are talking about. *I just know that what you are referring to as being a part of a false religion because it's contrary to the word of God. *If your faith is based on the church fathers then you are definitely out of touch with the truth. **
> 
> There is NO purgatory.  That is all a part of a false doctrine.  Do not be deceived.  The only way to God is through belief in Jesus Christ, and when you die, you go to Heaven or Hell, nothing in between.



I'm sorry you feel this way.  It's all good.  We are talking about the unconditional love of G-d and it's my fault not to have introduced it this way.  KtyKty put it directly.




ktykaty said:


> Eternal separation from God as opposed to eternal communion with God.
> My Priest suggested that maybe the punishment in hell was to know that because of our choices, we could not spend eternity in the loving presence of God.



That's funny that this was said twice because I had never considered this.  G-d must have wanted me to think about this cuz it sure stuck out.  One reason coming to mind is that it places us all on level ground  that was always there but that I'm more conscious of.  I think of those who made the final decision to reject G-d's love and they suffer torment from all of it.  That ought to move me to more compassion because He is still there loving those souls as it is unconditional and eternal.   How often we take advantage of that love, taking it as granted!  How His heart must hurt from seeing them suffer the consequences of rejecting that love because His great desire is for us to accept.    For people (like Hitler) that we suspect to have gone to hell for the evil way they lived their lives until the end, it still should move me to compassion and forgiveness of ALL offenses against me.  They don't know what they're doing until it's final.  



Health&hair28 said:


> If humand sufferings were capable of satisfying the Divine Justice, then what was the need for Jesus Christ death on cross? His death, burial, and resurrection took care of that.




Great question and it would seem obvious.  These were some of the questions I've had before I entered the Church in my studies.  But this is simply the way He chooses via His sacrifice.  Shrugs.  

I sure hope that people comprehend that my questions on scriptures or states in life will come via a catholic teaching and this is why all the catholics on here are responding via our Magisterium...catechism and scripture.  G-d gave the authority on earth to the apostles and what they have decided through the leading of the H-ly Spirit is what is passed on in that apostolic tradition or "passing down from the apostles directly."  This is why we verge away at various points.  It's essential to our comprehension and it's seemingly heresy to yours.  I hope you comprehend that it cannot be omitted.  In the end, there's Jesus so we're the same in that sense.  It's an opportunity for me to form questions seeking a catholic-centered response although I am not at all opposed to anyone else posting.  I think divya has a point on providing some of the theological foundations of us all so that, when we pose a question or give an opinion, it's already understood what our position on the peripheral is.  That way, we can focus on the actual question.


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