# ARE CHRISTIANS SUPPOSED TO GO THROUGH THE TRIBULATION?



## taytay86 (May 24, 2010)

Ladies, I am so confusederplexed. 

All my life I've learned that the rapture will come, take all of us away and then the great tribulation will occur. After 7 years, and after the 7 plagues, we will then come back with Jesus for the final battle.

Now I am hearing from certain preachers that the rapture will take place after the tribulation - and anything else is a lie. We as Christians are to go through the "struggle" and come out stronger - right when everyone turns on us, Jesus will appear.

I'm not sure this makes sense

I've read Revelations - and watched topics about Armageddon etc. on the History channel, and I can't see God putting us through THAT (great tribulation). But then I think, during the mass exodus the Egyptians went through similar plagues, but the Israelites were spared. I believe this proved to Pharaoh and the idol worshippers that God is real, and the protector of His people - would He show the world this again by letting us live through the tribulation?

Is there any hope for those Christians who were left behind, to go back with Jesus after the Tribulation?

TIA


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## Mahalialee4 (May 24, 2010)

taytay86 said:


> Ladies, I am so confusederplexed.
> 
> All my life I've learned that the rapture will come, take all of us away and then the great tribulation will occur. After 7 years, and after the 7 plagues, we will then come back with Jesus for the final battle.
> 
> ...





taytay86 said:


> Ladies, I am so confusederplexed.
> 
> All my life I've learned that the rapture will come, take all of us away and then the great tribulation will occur. After 7 years, and after the 7 plagues, we will then come back with Jesus for the final battle.
> 
> ...



I believe what causes the confusion for a lot of people is that many DENOMINATIONAL pastors, and priests, religious leaders of various persuasions, and including those that BREAK AWAY and form their own congregations or churches  are teaching Doctrines THAT 1.  THEY WERE TRAINED IN in seminaries and bible schools AND TAUGHT ACCORDING TO 'DENOMINATIONAL DOCTRINES' WHEN IT COMES TO DOCTRINAL ISSUES. 2.. What they were trained in from 'PASTORS WHO HAD MENTORED THEM IN A PARTICULAR DENOMINATION 3.  What they learned from Books and Philosophy, other men WHO HAD SPECIFIC DOCTRINAL LEANINGS or just chose to believe and teach based on a perceived societal need in their area..COMMUNITY BASED, ....not always solidly based on Scripture. Now I say this based on EXTENSIVE work I did with a Professor who taught Religious History to Priests and Pastors in Canada and The United States. A requirement that I had was to learn the beliefs and doctrines of the major religions, and those viewed as cults and sects, so that whenever I was interacting with someone from any religion, I would know what I was dealing with when it came to their belief systems and strongholds. It was then necessary for me to research whether what they were teaching was 'CHURCH 'TRADITIONAL' BELIEFS' or whether THOSE BELIEFS AND DOCTRINES THAT THEY WERE TEACHING met the criteria of LINE UPON LINE, PRECEPT UPON PRECEPT, which is how the Bible says we are to learn and in fact, was sound gospel, THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST  or LEAVEN MIXED DOCTRINE. I also learned what is actually 'taught as DOCTRINAL 'curriculum' to their leaders'...and why across the board they maintain a SIMILAR OR SPECIFIC throughout the religious community of church leaders on specific subjects or doctrines. This was helpful to me in more ways than I can say. Being aware of this is why I make the Word of God my First and Final authority. Line upon line...precept upon precept AND THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST.

If you wish I can give you the Scriptural references regarding Tribulation and who goes through it. Particulary the BIG ONE! The acid test for any doctrine or practice is: The Word of God.  Does the doctrine line up when you totally square it off with the Scriptures and not just the ' pet'  Scriptures, but do they line up...line upon line, precept upon precept. Many of the Doctrines & 'favorite themes' taught today would not survive that 'acid test'. Many Pastors and Priests are actually aware of this and admit it, when you talk to them away from the masses but choose to go along with 'the general way' of presenting their 'doctrines' for reasons best known to them.  Often churches report to a 'church' over them, that reports to another group over them,  in what is called the 'The Covering' Doctrine and therefore are 'held accountable' someone over them, to make sure that they do not deviate from the 'established TRADITIONAL doctrines'. As a result, not many flucuate due to possible repercussions or just general lack of knowledge.


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## taytay86 (May 24, 2010)

Mahalialee4 said:


> I believe what causes the confusion for a lot of people is that many DENOMINATIONAL pastors and priests, and those that BREAK AWAY and form their own congregations or churches  are teaching Doctrines THAT 1.  THEY WERE TRAINED IN in seminaries and bible schools. 2.. What they were trained in from 'PASTORS WHO HAD MENTORED THEM IN A PARTICULAR DENOMINATION 3.  What they learned from Books and Philosophy, other men or just chose to believe and teach based on a perceived societal need in their area..not always solidly based on Scripture. Now I say this based on EXTENSIVE work I did with a Professor who taught Religious History to Priests and Pastors in Canada and The United States. A requirement that I had was to learn the beliefs and doctrines of the major religions, and those viewd as cults and sects, so that whenever I was interacting with someone from any religion, I would know what I was dealing with when it came to their belief systems and strongholds. It was then necessary for me to research whether what they were teaching was 'CHURCH 'TRADITIONAL' BELIEFS' or whether it met the criteria of *LINE UPON LINE, PRECEPT UPON PRECEPT*, which is how the Bible says We are to learn. I also learned what is actually taught as curriculum to their leaders...and why across the board they maintain a specific thought on specific subjects or doctrines. This was helpful to me in more ways than I can say. This is why I make the Word of God my final authority. Line upon line...precept upon precept.
> 
> *If you wish I can give you the Scriptural references regarding Tribulation and who goes through it. *Particulary the BIG ONE! The acid test for any doctrine or practice is: The Word of God.  Does the doctrine line up when you totally square it off with the Scriptures and not just the ' pet'  Scriptures. Many of the Doctrines & 'favorite themes' taught today would not survive that *acid test.* Many Pastors and Priests are aware of this when you talk to them away from the masses.



Thank you for your reply - with 93 views and no response I was beginning to think no one knew the answer/cared enough to respond. 

First, the line upon line, precept upon precept concept makes sense. But then it becomes an issue when reading certain bibles where scriptures have been changed purposely to deceive others. For example,  the New Int. Version copyright is owned by Rupurt Murdock, a satanist and owner of fox news, and also the copyright holder of the satanic bibel. If I didn't know this, I would continue reading scriptures from this bible, and not receive the entire truth. So my question is, how do I know I am receiving the right information - directly from God, and not changed by man?

Second, yes please share your scriptural references on the tribulation, rapture and the final battle - Ideally, I would love a chronological diagram of some sort which lays everything out correctly from start to finish. 

Lastly, please share what this Acid Test is.

TIA


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## Mahalialee4 (May 25, 2010)

Okay.  In response to which Bible to use.  Personally I use the 1611 King James version. A later edition, and two large lettered ones I study out of. With that said, I appreciate and acknowledge that there have been some changes in the form of 'editing, adding and some of them are very 'subtle,'  but it does not change who God is, or Christ or the Spirit of Truth. In spite of the confusion, we need to be hearing the right teacher. Him. Christ.


Do you think that these Scriptures reflect THE FRUIT or end result of a variety of interpretations and teachings of Bible Scholars and Translators AND TEACHERS ?  When you see THIS fruit….THAT IS A RED FLAG! CONFUSION Brings CONFUSION! Confusion is not a NEW thing! IT IS NOT A GOOD THING!

Acts 19: 32 "Some therefore cried ONE THING, and SOME ANOTHER,: for the assembly was CONFUSED: and the more part KNEW NOT wherefore they were come together."

1 Corinthians 14:33 For GOD IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF CONFUSION, but of PEACE as in all churches of the saints.
James 3:14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so LIE AGAINST THE TRUTH.

James 3:16 For where 'ENVYING'  and 'STRIFE' is, there is CONFUSION and 'EVERY EVIL WORK'.

SOMETIMES NO MATTER HOW CLEARLY THE SCRIPTURES SPEAK, SPOKEN BY EVEN THE MOST ANOINTED SPEAKER AND TEACHER,…..SOME BELIEVE…AND SOME DON’T……..TELLS YOU SOMETHING!

Mark 9:7 Then a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and a voice ... 
... And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out
of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: 'HEAR HIM’... 

In the midst of what everyone is saying: HEAR HIM..and HEAR WHAT THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH IS SAYING, BECAUSE THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH TESTIFIES ABOUT CHRIST.

So I say: HEAR HIM
Christ said : John 5:“39   “SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify OF ME. 40And ye will not come to ME, that ye might have life. 41I receive not honour from men. 42But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. 43 I AM COME IN MY FATHER'S NAME, and YE RECEIVE ME NOT: IF ANOTHER SHALL COME IN HIS OWN NAME, HIM YE WILL RECEIVE44How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 45Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is ONE that accuseth you, even MOSES, in whom ye trust. 46For HAD YE BELIEVED ‘MOSES’, YE WOULD HAVE BELIEVE ME: FOR HE WROTE OF ME. 47But IF YE BELIEVE NOT HIS WRITINGS, HOW SHALL YE BELIEVE MY WORDS? 

Paul, a most skillful TEACHER had this experience AND CONFIRMED WHAT THE HOLY SPIRIT HAD SPOKEN THROUGH ISAIAH: 
Acts 28: 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his LODGING; to whom he EXPOUNDED AND TESTIFIED THE KINGDOM OF GOD, PERSUADING THEM CONCERNING ‘JESUS’, BOTH OUT OF ‘THE LAW’ AND OUT OF ‘THE PROPHETS’, FROM MORNING TILL EVENING. 24And SOME BELIEVED the things which were spoken, and SOME BELIEVED NOT. 25And WHEN THEY AGREED NOT AMONG THEMSELVES, THEY DEPARTED,  AFTER THAT PAUL HAD SPOKEN ONE WORD,  “ Well spake the HOLY GHOST ‘Esaias’ (Isaiah) the prophet unto our fathers 26Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: 27For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be CONVERTED, and I SHOULD HEAL THEM.”

The Bottom Line is  and always will be: Whom Do You Believe? Whose Voice is Speaking to you? Are you hearing HIM?
Revelation 2:7 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
 What I will add to this is  : PRAY and ask the Father to reveal truth to you regarding the Tribulation by the  Spirit of Truth from Scriptures I will send you.  Will post some in my next post.

In the meantime read the Book of Lamentations: and the Book of Hebrews 11:32-40.. THE SAINTS WENT THROUGH SOME SERIOUS TRIBULATION in the past and still do TODAY.  So 'TRIBULATION' is NOT NEW FOR GOD'S PEOPLE. It has been ONGOING since the garden of Eden where the first prophecy was given, I.E. Genesis 3:15...the hatred and war between the WOMAN'S SEED AND SATAN'S SEED...  (remember line upon line, precept upon precept) John 2:22 " So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the SCRIPTURE and THE WORD which JESUS had spoken."
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the FATHER WILL SEND  IN MY NAME, he SHALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, and bring ALL THINGS to YOUR REMEMBRANCE, whatsoever I HAVE SAID unto you
John 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, HE WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL THE TRUTH; for He will NOT speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and HE WILL DISCLOSE TO YOU WHAT IS TO COME.”
John 2:22 So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you

John 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, HE WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL THE TRUTH; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and HE WILL DISCLOSE TO YOU WHAT IS TO COME.”

Isaiah 28: 9 "Whom shall HE TEACH KNOWLEDGE? and WHOM SHALL HE MAKE to understand DOCTRINE? them that are WEANED FROM MILK, and drawn from the breasts. 

10 "For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:"


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## Mahalialee4 (May 25, 2010)

THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH...YOUR TEACHER

I want to lift up the Word of God and Who He says is the MEDIATOR or go between.  Who He says will be your Helper, your Comforter, also called ‘THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH”…that this same one will TESTIFY OF CHRIST….(WHO SAID) ..."will TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, BRING TO REMEMBRANCE ALL THAT I SAID TO YOU…."

 1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God, and ONE MEDIATOR between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;”

CHRIST SAID:
John 14:16 "I will ask the FATHER, and He will GIVE YOU ANOTHER HELPER, that He may be with you FOREVER
John 14:17 that is THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, whom THE WORLD CANNOT RECEIVE, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides WITH YOU and WILL BE IN YOU.
John 15:26But when the Comforter is come, WHOM I WILL SEND UNTO YOU FROM THE FATHER,  even the SPIRIT OF TRUTH, WHICH PROCEEDETH FROM THE FATHER, he SHALL TESTIFY OF ME.”

1I AM THE TRUE VINE, and MY FATHER IS THE HUSBANDMAN. 2EVERY BRANCH IN ME THAT BEARETH NOT FRUIT HE TAKETH AWAY: and EVERY BRANCH THAT BEARETH FRUIT, HE PURGETH IT, that IT MAY BRING FORTH MORE FRUIT. 3Now YE ARE CLEAN THROUGH THE WORD WHICH I HAVE SPOKEN UNTO YOU. 4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for WITHOUT ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING..

1 John 2:26These things have I written unto you CONCERNING THEM THAT SEDUCE YOU. 27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and YE NEED NOT that any man teach you: but as THE SAME ANOINTING TEACHETH YOU ALL THINGS, and IS TRUTH, and IS NO LIE, and EVEN AS IT HATH TAUGHT YOU, ye shall abide in HIM.

John 2:22 So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples REMEMBERED  that HE said this; and they BELIEVED THE SCRIPTURE and THE WORD WHICH JESUS HAD SPOKEN.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, WHOM THE FATHER WILL SEND IN MY NAME, he shall TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, and bring ALL things to your remembrance, WHATSOEVER I HAVE SAID UNTO YOU."

John 16:13 "But when He, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, comes, HE WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL THE TRUTH; for He will NOT SPEAK ON HIS OWN INITIATIVE, but whatever HE HEARS, He will SPEAK; and HE WILL DISCLOSE TO YOU WHAT IS TO COME.”

Whatever comes HERE IS SOME ENCOURAGEMENT FOR YOU THAT HE WILL NOT LEAVE YOU IN CONFUSION OR WITHOUT HIS TAKING CARE OF YOU WHEN YOU PUT YOUR TRUST IN HIM AND HIS WORD AND ARE LED BY THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH.

Isaiah 30: 20And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers: 21And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left
Psalm 25:9 He leads the humble in justice, And He teaches the humble His way.
Proverbs 3:6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight.
Isaiah 42:16 "I will lead the blind by a way they do not know, In paths they do not know I will guide them. I will make darkness into light before them And rugged places into plains. These are the things I will do, And I will not leave them undone."


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## Mahalialee4 (May 25, 2010)

PRECEPTS

Here are some clues:

 Job 33:14 "Indeed God speaks once, Or twice, yet NO ONE NOTICES IT".

The disciples wanted to know what would happen.
Daniel wanted to know what would happen.
Paul used the 'precept' of what happened in the wilderness with our forefathers.
1 Corinthians 10: 1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was CHRIST. 5But with MANY OF THEM God was not well pleased: for they were OVERTHROWN in the wilderness. ..

((Paul stated that THEY WERE OUR EXAMPLES))

"6Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 7Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 8Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. 9Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. 10Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. 11Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, UPON WHOM THE ENDS OF THE WORLD ARE COME. 12Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 13There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. 


Many believers profess that they think the END IS COMING SOON. That CHRIST IS COMING SOON...but do they REALLY believe what was said about what it would be like when that happens? Some say: I can't wait! The Scriptures tell us to 'PRAY THAT WE MAY ESCAPE THE THINGS THAT ARE COMING UPON THE INHABITED EARTH.'

Luke 21::34And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so THAT DAY come upon you unawares. 35For AS A SNARE SHALL IT COME ON ...'ALL THEM'... THAT DWELL ON THE FACE OF THE WHOLE EARTH.  36Watch ye therefore, and PRAY ALWAYS, that YE MAY BE ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS THAT SHALL COME TO PASS, AND TO STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN."

You are asking for a man made chart! a CHART IS A GUIDE...TO GIVE A CLEAR PICTURE.
Is there a better one than the Scriptures, and the Words of Christ and the Spirit of Truth? They are the only guaranteed guide.

Here are some clues:

 Job 33:14 "Indeed God speaks once, Or twice, yet no one notices it.


Jeremiah 30:7 'Alas! for that day is great, THERE IS NONE LIKE IT ; And IT IS THE TIME OF JACOB’S DISTRESS, But he will be saved from it.


DANIEL 12:1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. 4But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to THE TIME OF THE END: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased....9And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till THE TIME OF THE END. 10Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. 

Luke 21: 25And there shall be SIGNS IN THE SUN, AND IN THE MOON, AND IN THE STARS; and UPON THE EARTH DISTRESS OF NATIONS, WITH PERPLEXITY; the sea and the waves roaring; 26MEN'S HEARTS FAILING THEM FOR FEAR, AND FOR LOOKING AFTER THOSE THINGS WHICH ARE COMING ON THE EARTH: for THE POWERS OF THE HEAVENS SHALL BE SHAKEN. 27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

REPEATED FOR EMPHASIS:
Luke 21::34And take heed to YOURSELVES , lest AT ANY TIME YOUR HEARTS BE OVERCHARGED with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and CARES OF THIS LIFE, and so THAT DAY come upon you unawares. 35For as a SNARE  shall it come on ALL THEM THAT DWELL ON THE FACE OF THE WHOLE EARTH. 36WATCH YE THEREFORE , and PRAY ALWAYS,ays, that ye may be accounted WORTHY TO ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS that SHALL COME TO PASS, , and TO STAND before the Son of man.

Matthew 24:21 "For then there will be A GREAT TRIBULATION, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will
Matthew 24: 22  “And except those days should be shortened,... there should no flesh be saved: but ....for the elect's sake those days SHALL BE SHORTENED.


Mark 13:19 "For those days will be A TIME OF TRIBULATION such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
Mark 13:20 : “... And except the Lord had shortened those days, NO FLESH would be saved: but..... for the ELECT’S SAKE,  whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. ...

NOTE  what happens after the Tribulation of those days.....

MATTHEW 24:29 "IMMEDIATELY 'AFTER' THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And HE SHALL SEND HIS ANGELS WITH A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPHET, and .....THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, FROM ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER."

Revelation 7:9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. 

13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? ...    14  I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "THESE ARE THE ONES  WHO COME 'OUT OF' THE GREAT TRIBULATION, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. 


14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "THESE ARE THE ONES  WHO COME 'OUT OF' THE GREAT TRIBULATION, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

precept: Ezekiel 37:27 "{{My dwelling place also will be with THEM; and I will be their God, and they will be MY PEOPLE.}}

REVELATION 3: 12 'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, {{WHICH COMES DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN}} FROM MY GOD, and My new name.'
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REVELATION 21: 1And I saw a NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw THE HOLY CITY, NEW JERUSALEM,{{ COMING DOWN FROM GOD OUT OF HEAVEN,}} prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I HEARD A GREAT VOICE OUT OF HEAVEN SAYING {{Behold, THE TABLERNACLE OF GOD IS WITH MEN, and HE WILL DWELL WITH THEM}}, and they SHALL BE HIS PEOPLE, and GOD HIMSELF SHALL BE WITH THEM, AND BE THERE GOD. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (REMEMBER THE PRECEPT?...the EARTHLY TABERNACLE IN the wilderness?)

Ezekiel 37:27 "My dwelling place also {{WILL BE WITH THEM}}; and I will be their God, and {{THEY WILL BE MY PEOPLE."}}... SOUNDS LIKE A WONDERFUL ENDING
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Hope these scriptures are helpful. I am not interpreting them, but offering them for you to prayerfully consider.

If His chosen ones are GATHERED 'IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION'.....which CHOSEN ones or Elect are LEFT BEHIND? Which SCRIPTURES support the Left Behind Doctrine in the light of what you just read? Is God careless? (smile)
Now where are the Scriptures that support the 'left behind' Doctrine?


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## Poohbear (May 25, 2010)

*Revelation 13*

 1And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea.

*The Beast out of the Sea *

    And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. 2The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. 3One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast. 4Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?" 
 5The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. 6He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. 

 9He who has an ear, let him hear. 
 10If anyone is to go into captivity, 
      into captivity he will go. 
   If anyone is to be killed with the sword, 
      with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.

*The Beast out of the Earth *

 11Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon. 12He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men. 14Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name. 
 18This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.

*Revelation 14
The Lamb and the 144,000 *

 1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

*The Three Angels *

 6Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people. 7He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water." 
 8A second angel followed and said, "Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great, which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries." 

 9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." 12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. 

 13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." 
      "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."

*The Harvest of the Earth *

 14I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one "like a son of man" with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, "Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested. 
 17Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, "Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth's vine, because its grapes are ripe." 19The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath. 20They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses' bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.

*Revelation 15
Seven Angels with Seven Plagues *

 1I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God's wrath is completed. 2And I saw what looked like a sea of glass mixed with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and over the number of his name. They held harps given them by God 3and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb: 
   "Great and marvelous are your deeds, 
      Lord God Almighty. 
   Just and true are your ways, 
      King of the ages. 
 4Who will not fear you, O Lord, 
      and bring glory to your name? 
   For you alone are holy. 
   All nations will come 
      and worship before you, 
   for your righteous acts have been revealed." 
 5After this I looked and in heaven the temple, that is, the tabernacle of the Testimony, was opened. 6Out of the temple came the seven angels with the seven plagues. They were dressed in clean, shining linen and wore golden sashes around their chests. 7Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever. 8And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.


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## Poohbear (May 25, 2010)

*Revelation 16
The Seven Bowls of God's Wrath *

1Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go, pour out the seven bowls of God's wrath on the earth." 2The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly and painful sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. 
 3The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it turned into blood like that of a dead man, and every living thing in the sea died. 

4The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood. 5Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say: 
   "You are just in these judgments, you who are and who were, the Holy One, because you have so judged; 
 6for they have shed the blood of your saints and prophets, and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve." 

 7And I heard the altar respond: 
   "Yes, Lord God Almighty, true and just are your judgments." 

 8The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was given power to scorch people with fire. 9They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him. 

 10The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom was plunged into darkness. Men gnawed their tongues in agony 11and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done. 

 12The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13Then I saw three evil[a] spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty. 

 15"Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed." 

 16Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon. 

 17The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, "It is done!" 18Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since man has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. 19The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath. 20Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. 21From the sky huge hailstones of about a hundred pounds each fell upon men. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.

*Revelation 17
The Woman and the Beast *

 1One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters. 2With her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries." 
 3Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. 5This title was written on her forehead: 
      MYSTERY 
      BABYLON THE GREAT
      THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES
      AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. 

   When I saw her, I was greatly astonished. 7Then the angel said to me: "Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns. 8The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come. 

 9"This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. 11The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction. 

 12"The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. 13They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast. 14They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers." 

 15Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. 16The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled. 18The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth."

*Revelation 18*

 1After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven. He had great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his splendor. 2With a mighty voice he shouted: 
   "Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great! 
      She has become a home for demons 
   and a haunt for every evil* spirit, 
      a haunt for every unclean and detestable bird. 
 3For all the nations have drunk 
      the maddening wine of her adulteries. 
   The kings of the earth committed adultery with her, 
      and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries." 

 4Then I heard another voice from heaven say: 
   "Come out of her, my people, 
      so that you will not share in her sins, 
      so that you will not receive any of her plagues; 
 5for her sins are piled up to heaven, 
      and God has remembered her crimes. 
 6Give back to her as she has given; 
      pay her back double for what she has done. 
      Mix her a double portion from her own cup. 
 7Give her as much torture and grief 
      as the glory and luxury she gave herself. 
   In her heart she boasts, 
      'I sit as queen; I am not a widow, 
      and I will never mourn.' 
 8Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her: 
      death, mourning and famine. 
   She will be consumed by fire, 
      for mighty is the Lord God who judges her. 

 9"When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury see the smoke of her burning, they will weep and mourn over her. 10Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry: 
   " 'Woe! Woe, O great city, 
      O Babylon, city of power! 
   In one hour your doom has come!' 

 11"The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes any more— 12cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble; 13cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; and bodies and souls of men. 

 14"They will say, 'The fruit you longed for is gone from you. All your riches and splendor have vanished, never to be recovered.' 15The merchants who sold these things and gained their wealth from her will stand far off, terrified at her torment. They will weep and mourn 16and cry out: 
   " 'Woe! Woe, O great city, 
      dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet, 
      and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls! 
 17In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!' 

   "Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off. 18When they see the smoke of her burning, they will exclaim, 'Was there ever a city like this great city?' 19They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out: 
   " 'Woe! Woe, O great city, 
      where all who had ships on the sea 
      became rich through her wealth! 
   In one hour she has been brought to ruin! 
 20Rejoice over her, O heaven! 
      Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets! 
   God has judged her for the way she treated you.' " 

 21Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said: 
   "With such violence 
      the great city of Babylon will be thrown down, 
      never to be found again. 
 22The music of harpists and musicians, flute players and trumpeters, 
      will never be heard in you again. 
   No workman of any trade 
      will ever be found in you again. 
   The sound of a millstone 
      will never be heard in you again. 
 23The light of a lamp will never shine in you again. 
   The voice of bridegroom and bride 
      will never be heard in you again. 
   Your merchants were the world's great men. 
      By your magic spell all the nations were led astray. 
 24In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints, 
      and of all who have been killed on the earth."*


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## Poohbear (May 25, 2010)

*Revelation 19*
*Hallelujah! *

 1After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: 
   "Hallelujah! 
   Salvation and glory and power belong to our God, 
    2for true and just are his judgments. 
   He has condemned the great prostitute 
      who corrupted the earth by her adulteries. 
   He has avenged on her the blood of his servants." 3And again they shouted: 
   "Hallelujah! 
   The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever." 
 4The twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God, who was seated on the throne. And they cried: 
   "Amen, Hallelujah!" 

 5Then a voice came from the throne, saying: 
   "Praise our God, 
      all you his servants, 
   you who fear him, 
      both small and great!" 

 6Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: 
   "Hallelujah! 
      For our Lord God Almighty reigns. 
 7Let us rejoice and be glad 
      and give him glory! 
   For the wedding of the Lamb has come, 
      and his bride has made herself ready. 
 8Fine linen, bright and clean, 
      was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.) 

 9Then the angel said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!' " And he added, "These are the true words of God." 

 10At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

*The Rider on the White Horse *

 11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter."[c] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
       KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. 
 17And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great." 

 19Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

*Revelation 20
The Thousand Years *

 1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time. 
 4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

*Satan's Doom *

 7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

*The Dead Are Judged *

 11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


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## Poohbear (May 25, 2010)

*Revelation 21
The New Jerusalem *

 1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." 
 5He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." 

 6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." 

 9One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 

 15The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls. 16The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia[d]in length, and as wide and high as it is long. 17He measured its wall and it was 144 cubits[e] thick,[f] by man's measurement, which the angel was using. 18The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass. 19The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, 20the fifth sardonyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst.[g] 21The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of pure gold, like transparent glass. 

 22I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

*Revelation 22
The River of Life *

 1Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever. 6The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."

*Jesus Is Coming *

 7"Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book." 
 8I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!" 

 10Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near. 11Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy." 

 12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 

 14"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. 

 16"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[h] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star." 

 17The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life. 

 18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. 

 20He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon." 
      Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. 

 21The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.


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## Guitarhero (May 25, 2010)

IMHO, the obvious difficulty in preferring a private revelation of scripture as opposed to your denominational accepted translation is that, rather than having a magisterum of sorts to interpret according to wide acceptance (prayer, study, the Holy Spirit), there is an even greater chance of error in the individual interpretation.  We simply were not meant to walk this road alone.  Does that mean that I can't read the scriptures and understand them?  No, but it does mean that I am meant to comprehend them within a christian community of faith.  The precedent was given before Christ.  He didn't change that, but He fulfilled it. Just my .02


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## taytay86 (May 25, 2010)

Mahalialee4 said:


> *
> If His chosen ones are GATHERED 'IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION'.....which CHOSEN ones or Elect are LEFT BEHIND? Which SCRIPTURES support the Left Behind Doctrine in the light of what you just read? Is God careless? (smile)
> Now where are the Scriptures that support the 'left behind' Doctrine?*



Beautiful Wow AMEN. So my main question is answered. Christians WILL go through the great tribulation - so why are there so many people teaching rapture before the tribulation? Is it so Christians will loose hope? I'm still confused as to *when the rapture will take place*? Are we to be raptured up after the great tribulation, before the fight between Jesus and Satan, where Satan will be bound once and for all? Can you please provide some scriptures on this....or maybe I missed it

The Left Behind Theory (movies etc.) promotes rapture before the tribulation. And also those who go through it will be hell bound. What about this whole *Mark of the Beast*? Will this happen during the tribulation?

There's some pieces missing in my mind - *when will the final judgement take place?* *How long with the tribulation last?* 7 years? 3 years? Jesus will only return once, and that is after the tribulation, as per the scriptures provided.

Also, *what about the scripture that says only a couple thousand will actually go to Heaven *(I believe the number was 144 thousand). Should I be taking this "line for line" as well?

I would love some more scriptures to clarify/answer the multitude of questions I now have, since what I've been taught all along is wrong.

I really appreciate your time and effort in all of this.


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## taytay86 (May 25, 2010)

There's so much to read! PoorBear, I will get to yours  Thank you Thank you


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## Mahalialee4 (May 25, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> *Revelation 13*
> 
> 1And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea.
> 
> ...



Refer your post, this portion: Thank you for posting this.
"9He who has an ear, let him hear. 
 10If anyone is to go INTO CAPTIVITY, 
      into captivity he will go. 
   If anyone is TO BE KILLED WITH THE SWORD, 
      with the sword he will be killed. This calls for PATIENT ENDURANCE ON THE PART OF THE SAINTS."

A PRECEPT:
"He who ENDURES to the END will be SAVED"

NO ONE GETS A FREE PASS! 'ENDURANCE' IS ONE OF THE CRITERIA

Matthew 10:22 "All men will hate you because of me, but he who ... ... And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved. ..." 


Mark 13:13 "All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands ... ... You will be hated by all men for my name's sake, but he whoendures to the end, the same will be saved." ... 



Matthew 24:13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. ... "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. ... But he who endures to the end, the same will be saved.


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## Mahalialee4 (May 25, 2010)

taytay86 said:


> Beautiful Wow AMEN. So my main question is answered. Christians WILL go through the great tribulation - so why are there so many people teaching rapture before the tribulation? Is it so Christians will loose hope? I'm still confused as to *when the rapture will take place*? Are we to be raptured up after the great tribulation, before the fight between Jesus and Satan, where Satan will be bound once and for all? Can you please provide some scriptures on this....or maybe I missed it
> 
> The Left Behind Theory (movies etc.) promotes rapture before the tribulation. And also those who go through it will be hell bound. What about this whole *Mark of the Beast*? Will this happen during the tribulation?
> 
> ...




I will answer your questions in sections: Your Quote: {so why are there so many people teaching rapture before the tribulation? Is it so Christians will loose hope?}

Answer: This would be helpful to you: Try Putting ‘religion’ and What  “They say”  aside for a moment:   and just accepting the Word for what it itself speaks:

The Hope of God’s  PEOPLE:  First:  Regarding those who have died:

# 1.   In Revelation is found the REALIZATION OF THE HOPE OF THE TEN TRIBES; THE HOPE OF ISRAEL
# 2.  There will be two resurrections…A First and A Second  Occurring at different time frames
# 3.   Here is where you either believe the Scripture, Christ or get caught up in the confusion of men WHO CLAIM TO KNOW MORE THAN WHAT JESUS SAID, AND WHAT HIS APOSTLES SAID.

Precepts: Very clear and straightforward: 

JESUS said: John 5: 28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which ‘ALL THAT ARE IN THE GRAVES’ SHALL HEAR HIS VOICE, 29And SHALL COME FORTH; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation….HEAR HIM!
John 5:28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
Martha, the brother of Lazarus believed in the resurrection of the dead: John 11:24 Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again IN THE RESURRECTION ON THE LAST DAY."

PAUL SAID:  Acts 24:15 having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall CERTAINLY BE A RESURRECTION OF ‘BOTH THE RIGHTEOUS….AND THE WICKED.
Philippians 3: 10That I may know HIM, and THE POWER OF HIS RESURRECTION, and THE FELLOWSHIP OF HIS SUFFERINGS,  BEING MADE CONFORMABLE UNTO HIS DEATH; 11If BY ANY MEANS I MIGHT ATTAIN UNTO THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.
Acts 26:7 “UNTO WHICH PROMISE OUR TWELVE TRIBES, INSTANTLY SERVING GOD DAY AND NIGHT, HOPE TO COME.. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews”
Acts 28:20 "For this reason, therefore, I requested to see you and to speak with you, for I am wearing this chain FOR THE SAKE OF THE HOPE OF ISRAEL.
Who was James writing to?
James 1:1 James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,  ‘TO THE TWELVE TRIBES WHO ARE DISPERSED ABROAD’: Greetings


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## Mahalialee4 (May 25, 2010)

I am aware that there is a 'RAPTURE DOCTRINE', and where it originated from. 
What I can refer you to is WHAT CHRIST AND THE APOSTLES TAUGHT: 

A vast numbers of religions and denominations do teach their various theories using the word "rapture' to describe their DOCTRINE:  It is unfortunate that they do not teach the great truths about this.

# 1.  RESURRECTION
What About the Living Saints? Those who May Die before The Coming Of Christ? How are they affected by the Resurrection?
Precepts: 
Hebrews 11:13 ALL THESE DIED IN FAITH,   WITHOUT RECEIVING THE PROMISES, but HAVING SEEN THEM AND HAVING WELCOMED THEM FROM A DISTANCE, and  HAVING CONFESSED THAT THEY WERE STRANGERS AND EXILES ON THE EARTH.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say to BY THE WORD OF THE, that WE WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN UNTIL THE COMING OF THE LORD,   WILL NOT  precede      THOSE WHO HAVE FALLEN ASLEEP.
1 Thessalonians 5:10 “Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him
Romans 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
2 Corinthians 5:6 “Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
Romans 14:9 “For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be LORD BOTH OF DEAD AND OF THE LIVING.”
Luke 20:38 "Now He is not the God of the dead but of the living; for all live to Him."
Revelation 14:13 And I heard A VOICE FROM HEAVEN SAYING, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are THE DEAD WHO DIE IN THE LORD from now on!'" "Yes," SAYS THE SPIRIT, "so that they MAY REST FROM THEIR LABOURS, FOR THEIR DEEDS FOLLOW THEM."
John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 15:50 “Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Corinthians 12Now IF CHRIST BE PREACHED  THAT HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD,  HOW CAN SOME SAY THAT THERE IS NO RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD?
 13But IF THERE IS NO RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD THEN IS CHRIST NOT RISEN: 14And IF CHRIST BE NOT RISEN, THEN OUR PREACHING   VAIN., AND   YOUR FAITH  IS ALSO
. 15Yea, and WE ARE FOUND FALSE WITNESSES OF GOD, BECAUSE WE HAVE TESTIFIED OF GOD THAT HE RAISED UP CHRIST : WHOM HE RAISED NOT UP IF SO BE THAT THE DEAD RISE NOT.
 16  FOR IF THE DEAD RISE NOT, THEN IS NOT CHRIST RAISED.: 17And if Christ be not raised, YOUR FAITH IS VAIN; ye are YET IN YOUR SINS. 18 THEN THEY ALSO WHICH ARE FALLEN ASLEEP IN CHRIST ARE PERISHED. 19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable…


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## Mahalialee4 (May 25, 2010)

What About the Living Saints? Those who May Die before The Coming Of Christ? How are they affected by the Resurrection?
Precepts: 
Hebrews 11:13 ALL THESE DIED IN FAITH,   WITHOUT RECEIVING THE PROMISES, but HAVING SEEN THEM AND HAVING WELCOMED THEM FROM A DISTANCE, and  HAVING CONFESSED THAT THEY WERE STRANGERS AND EXILES ON THE EARTH.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say to BY THE WORD OF THE, that WE WHO ‘ARE ALIVE’ ‘AND REMAIN ‘UNTIL THE COMING OF THE LORD’,   WILL ‘NOT’  precede      THOSE WHO HAVE FALLEN ASLEEP.
“Precede 
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then ‘WE WHO ARE ALIVE’ AND ‘REMAIN’  ‘WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER’ ‘WITH THEM’ IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR, and so we shall always

Noah Webster's New International Dictionary of the English Language 
*Precede: 1. (v. t.) To go before in order of time; to occur first with relation to anything. 
2. (v. t.) To go before in place, rank, or importance. 
3. (v. t.) To cause to be preceded; to preface; to introduce; -- used with by or with before the instrumental object.

So if the Scriptures say that "we who are 'ALIVE'...WILL ((NOT PRECEDE))....OR GO BEFORE THOSE WHO ARE WAITING THE FIRST RESURRECTION....AND THAT WE WILL BE 'CAUGHT UP ((TOGETHER 'WITH THEM'))...AND THAT THIS WILL HAPPEN AT   (((THE LAST TRUMP)))...Has the (((LAST TRUMPET))) BLOWN YET?


Paul said: Romans 7:24 “Wretched man that I am! WHO WILL SET ME FREE FROM THE BODY OF THIS DEATH?”

 Corinthians 15:51Behold, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; WE SHALL NOT ALL SLEEP, BUT WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED, IN A MOMENT, IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE,   (((((AT THE LAST TRUMP))));  (((FOR THE TRUMPHET SHALL SOUND))), and (((THE DEAD SHALL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE))),   AND (((WE   SHALL BE CHANGED))). 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and THIS MORTAL MUST PUT ON IMMORTALITY. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY. 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56  THE STING OF DEATH IS  SIN; and THE STRENGTH OF SIN IS  THE LAW. 57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 
58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that  YOUR LABOUR is not in vain in the Lord.


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## Mahalialee4 (May 26, 2010)

Remember the Precept: “For God is a God of Order”
1 Corinthians 6:14 Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power.
1 Corinthians 15:20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
 Therefore:  The Order of Resurrection:  CHRIST,  THE FIRSTFRUITS
1.1 Corinthians 15:20 “ But now Christ has been raised from the dead, THE FIRSTFRUITS  OF THOSE WHO ARE ASLEEP…. 
Precepts: 
Jeremiah 2:3 ISRAEL was holiness unto the LORD, and THE FIRSTFRUITS of his increase: all that devour him shall offend; evil shall come upon them, saith the LORD.
Revelation 14:4 “These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being THE FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb.”


	1 Corinthians 15:23 “But EVERY MAN IN HIS  ‘OWN ORDER: CHRIST THE FIRSTFRUITS;”…  
	Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, THE FIRSTBORN OF THE DEAD, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—
2.	1 Thessalonians 4:16 “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and THE DEAD IN CHRIST will rise first.
Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb ... 
Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with
him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads ... 

Revelation 7:4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed ... 
Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 FROM ALL THE TRIBES OF ISRAEL. ... I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000
(((6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. )))


So “who is left behind to teach unrepentant Israel when Israel’s number is all sealed and they are standing on Mount Zion with the Lamb of God?”

NEXT: 

	(((((AFTERWARD))),  (((((THEY THAT ARE ‘CHRIST’S’)))  ((( AT HIS COMING”)))…

NEXT: 
3.	THE REST OF THE DEAD
And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. 


When are the REST OF THE DEAD RAISED?  "5But the rest of the dead lived not again UNTIL THE THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED. "

So just sticking to THE WORD ITSELF: Be blessed.


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## Mahalialee4 (May 26, 2010)

As to 'DOCTRINAL DEBATES' and 'theories' and philosphies of men, to suit their particular doctrines I find it beneficial to stay clear, and I take the warning of Christ very SERIOUSLY that HE gives in the Book of Revelation.

If He didn't say it: Then I don't know it.  The precepts in the Word, (what was written before) to gain understanding of what was written later ...line upon line precept upon precept... always happy to share the Word as is, anytime.

Revelation 22:16"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 

17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. 

18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall ADD unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19And if any man shall TAKE AWAY from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 

20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.


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## Mahalialee4 (May 26, 2010)

When there is no specific answer in the Scripture other than what is already written there I recommend Paul's advice. E.G.  Regarding the length of the 'tribulation' there is much wrangling over what is there and some have made WHOLE DOCTRINES OUT OF IT.

1 Timothy 1: 
 1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope; 
2Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord. 
3As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach NO OTHER DOCTRINE, 4Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, WHICH MINISTER QUESTIONS, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. 5Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: 6From which some having SWERVED have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. 
2 Timothy 2:14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.
1 Timothy 6: 3If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; “He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,...

As regards the when of things: Look at the precepts, the prophecies, the context of the prophecy and the time frame of other events...the Scripture is very revealing. One thing you will see is that the references to Mark of the Beast occurs before he is thrown into the Lake of Fire along with the False Prophet; during a time when the Beast is 'making war on the saints.' and during a time of GREAT MASS DECEPTION. Daniel 11 and 12 may help you as well as Revelation 12:17; Revelations Chapter 13 AND CHAPTER  14..IT IS IN THE TIME OF THE END...search the Scriptures.   

You should be 'good to go!'


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## Mahalialee4 (May 26, 2010)

JUDGEMENT 
31WHEN THE SON OF MAN SHALL COME IN HIS GLORY, and ALL THE HOLY ANGELS WITH HIM, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered ALL NATIONS nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, INHERIT THE KINGDOM PREPARED FOR YOU FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD: 35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT: but the RIGHTEOUS INTO LIFE ETERNAL.


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## Mahalialee4 (May 26, 2010)

THE TIME FRAME OF JUDGEMENT
Judgement: Here is where it  ...     STARTS:
1 Peter 4:17 “For the time is come that JUDGEMENT 'MUST BEGIN AT THE HOUSE OF GOD': and if it 'FIRST BEGIN AT US', what shall THE END of them THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF GOD?
1 Peter 2:5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ
Hebrews 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house-- whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
2 Thessalonians 1:8 dealing out RETRIBUTION  who DO NOT KNOW God and   TO THOSE WHO DO NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS.

precept:

Jeremiah 25:29 "For behold, I am beginning to work calamity in this city WHICH IS CALLED BY MY NAME, and shall you be completely free from punishment? You will not be free from punishment; for I am summoning a sword against all the inhabitants of the earth," declares the LORD of hosts.'


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## Mahalialee4 (May 26, 2010)

SINGLED OUT FOR HEAVIER JUDGEMENT BY THE APOSTLE:
1 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be FALSE TEACHERS  among you, who PRIVILIY SHALL BRING IN DAMNABLE HERESIES, even DENYING THE LORD THAT BOUGHT THEM, and BRING UPON THEMSELVES SWIFT DESTRUCTION. 


SINGLED OUT FOR HEAVIER JUDGEMENTS BY CHRIST:
Luke 11:43 "Woe to you Pharisees! For you love the chief seats in the synagogues and the respectful greetings in the market places.
Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8But BE NOT YE CALLED RABBI, one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9And CALL NO MAN YOUR FATHER: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10Neither be ye called MASTERS: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be ABASED; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. 
13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore YE SHALL RECEIVE THE GREATER DAMNATION.. 
15 'WOE unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make ONE PROSELYTE', and WHEN HE IS MADE, YE MAKE HIM TWOFOLD MORE THE CHILD OF HELL THAN YOURSELVES. "
1 Timothy 1:7 wanting to be TEACHERS OF THE LAW,   EVEN THOUGH THEY DO NOT UNDERSTAND EITHER WHAT THEY ARE SAYING   OR  THE MATTERS ABOUT WHICH THEY MAKE CONFIDENT ASSERTIONS."


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## Mahalialee4 (May 26, 2010)

WHY IS KNOWING AND BELIEVING THE WORD SO CRITICAL?  because of MASS DECEPTION

Mark 13:6 “For MANY SHALL COME IN MY NAME saying I am Christ; and shall DECEIVE MANY”
Luke 21:8 And He said, "See to it that you are not misled; for many will come IN MY NAME, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not go after them

PRECEPTS:
Micah 3:11 Her leaders pronounce judgment for a bribe, Her priests instruct for a price And her prophets divine for money. Yet they lean on the LORD saying, "Is not the LORD in our midst? Calamity will not come upon us."
Isaiah 5:13 Therefore My people go into exile for their lack of knowledge; And their honorable men are famished, And their multitude is parched with thirst.
Jeremiah 10:21 For the shepherds have become stupid And have not sought the LORD; Therefore they have not prospered, And all their flock is scattered.
Jeremiah 23:1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD
Jeremiah 50:6 "My people have become lost sheep; Their shepherds have led them astray. They have made them turn aside on the mountains; They have gone along from mountain to hill And have forgotten their resting place.
Isaiah 5:13 Therefore My people go into exile for their lack of knowledge; And their honorable men are famished, And their multitude is parched with thirst.
Zechariah 11:17 "Woe to the worthless shepherd Who leaves the flock! A sword will be on his arm And on his right eye! His arm will be totally withered And his right eye will be blind."
Ezekiel 13:3 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Woe to the foolish prophets who are following their own spirit and have seen nothing.
Ezekiel 34:2 "Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel. Prophesy and say to those shepherds, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Woe, shepherds of Israel who have been feeding themselves! Should not the shepherds feed the flock?
Hosea 8:1 Put the trumpet to your lips! Like an eagle the enemy comes against the house of the LORD, Because they have transgressed My covenant And rebelled against My law.
Hosea 8:12 Though I wrote for him ten thousand precepts of My law, They are regarded as a strange thing.
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hebrews: My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Malachi 2:7 "For the lips of a priest should preserve knowledge, and men should seek INSTRUCTION from his mouth; for he is the MESSENGER of the LORD of hosts.
Malachi 2:8 "But as for you, YOU HAVE TURNED ASIDE FROM   'THE WAY'...you have turned aside from the way; you have caused many TO STUMBLE BY THE INSTRUCTION; you have CORRUPTED the covenant of Levi," says the LORD of hosts.
Matthew 24:23 "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him

Luke 21:8 And He said, "See to it that you are not MISLED; for MANY WILL COME, IN MY NAME, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not go after them.

They will be , TEACHING, PREACHING ...."JESUS" .... "Christ"...coming in HIS NAME! We will not be MISLED if they come in the name of 'Buddah' OR THE NAME OF SOME OTHER GOD!!!


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## Mahalialee4 (May 26, 2010)

Some will choose their 'favorite doctrinal views' over the Word of God and Christ's Doctrine.


JESUS SAID:

Luke 13:24 "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for MANY, I TELL YOU, will SEEK to enter and WILL NOT BE ABLE"


Matthew 7: 13"Enter ye in at THE STRAIT GATE: for wide is the gate, and BROAD IS THE GATE AND WIDE IS THE WAY, that leadeth tTO DESTRUCTION, and MANY there be which go in thereat: 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it. "
15Beware of FALSE PROPHETS, which come to you IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING, but inwardly they are 'ravening wolves.'  (HUNGRY wolves wanting to get fed)  16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 
21Not EVERY ONE that saith unto me, LORD, LORD, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH THE WILL OF MY FATHER which is in heaven. 22MANY will say to me in that day, LORD, LORD, have we not prophesied IN THY NAME? and IN THY NAME have cast out devils? and IN THY NAME done many wonderful works? 

23And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 
24Therefore whosoever HEARETH THESE SAYING OF MINE of mine, and DOETH THEM, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26And every one that HEARETH THESE SAYINGS OF MINE, AND DOTH THEM NOT, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and GREAT WAS THE FALL OF IT...

So there is the choice:  The Doctrine of Christ or the Doctrine of Man. Jesus summed it up.

28 "And it came to pass, when JESUS HAD ENDED THESE SAYINGS,  the people were ASTONISHED AT (((HIS DOCTRINE))) 29For HE TAUGHT THEM AS ONE HAVING AUTHORITY,  and NOT AS THE SCRIBES".


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## taytay86 (May 26, 2010)

Mahalialee4 said:


> What About the Living Saints? Those who May Die before The Coming Of Christ? How are they affected by the Resurrection?
> Precepts:
> Hebrews 11:13 ALL THESE DIED IN FAITH,   WITHOUT RECEIVING THE PROMISES, but HAVING SEEN THEM AND HAVING WELCOMED THEM FROM A DISTANCE, and  HAVING CONFESSED THAT THEY WERE STRANGERS AND EXILES ON THE EARTH.
> 
> ...



My questions are below the bolded in red italics.


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## taytay86 (May 26, 2010)

Mahalialee4 said:


> When there is no specific answer in the Scripture other than what is already written there I recommend Paul's advice. E.G.  Regarding the length of the 'tribulation' there is much wrangling over what is there and some have made WHOLE DOCTRINES OUT OF IT.
> 
> 1 Timothy 1:
> 1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
> ...



_Could it not be argued that this is happening right now? All these signs the Bible tells us to look out for, wars, earthquakes etc. These are all happening now - but I think, we will all be affected by this, no? I've never experienced war, earthquakes etc. here in Canada, but perhaps when we all start to experience this, it will be during the great tribulation. I don't agree that we are in the tribulation period now as some would say, because as I agree what's going on in the world is bad - it hasn't become unimaginable..._


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## taytay86 (May 26, 2010)

Mahalialee4 said:


> Remember the Precept: “For God is a God or Order”
> 1 Corinthians 6:14 Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power.
> 1 Corinthians 15:20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
> Therefore:  The Order of Resurrection:  CHRIST,  THE FIRSTFRUITS
> ...



_This confuses me - the rest of the dead? If this is refering to the dead in Christ, I thought after the tribulation and after the trumpet the dead will rise first, and then the living will be caught up in the clouds....erplexed_

*This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.*

_Why does the second death not have any power? Does the second death refer to the Christians to are alive now, who will die later?_

*7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.*

_The thousand years begins after the tribulation? Is this the same thousand years in which the dead will be raised again?_


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## Sharpened (May 26, 2010)

May Our Father place a blessing upon the reading of His Words. For in truth and love, they are inspired by Him and given. Amen.


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## Mahalialee4 (May 26, 2010)

taytay86 said:


> _This confuses me - the rest of the dead? If this is refering to the dead in Christ, I thought after the tribulation and after the trumpet the dead will rise first, and then the living will be caught up in the clouds....erplexed_



So far you have read about the 'resurrection of the righteous, right?

The 'unrighteous dead' will also be resurrected......shocking to many because some already have people 'in heaven' or 'burning' in hell......MEANING....NO RESURRECTION...NO JUDGEMENT
Again, we have to make a choice on WHO we are going to believe. The Scriptures or man.

Eccl: 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."


Daniel 12:2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
Acts 23:6 But perceiving that one group were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, Paul began crying out in the Council, "Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; I am on trial for the hope and resurrection of the dead!"

Acts 24: 15 “And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the JUST and UNJUST.”

Again: Revelation 7:12
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


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## Mahalialee4 (May 26, 2010)

JESUS TRIED TO SPARE US BEING CONFUSED: 
His warnings: 
Matthew 16:6 And Jesus said to them, "Watch out and beware of THE LEAVEN of the Pharisees and Sadducees."
Matthew 16:12 Then they understood that He did NOT say to beware of the leaven of BREAD, but of THE TEACHING of the  Pharisees and Sadducees.
Galatians 5:9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.

THIS IS WHAT THE SCRIPTURES SAY: DEATH AND RESURRECTION 
Genesis 3:19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the SPIRIT shall return unto God who gave it.
Ecclesiastes 3:20 ALL GO TO THE SAME PLACE..ALL CAME FROM THE DUST.... All came from the dust...AND ALL RETURN TO THE DUST.
Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth?
Psalm 104:29 You hide Your face, they are dismayed; You take away THEIR SPIRIT, they expire And return to their dust.
Acts 2:34 For David is NOT ASCENDED INTO THE HEAVENS, but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Matthew 22:23 On that day some Sadducees (WHO SAY THERE IS NO RESURRECTION) came to Jesus and questioned Him,
Mark 12:18 Then come unto him the SADDUCEESs,   which say   THERE IS NO RESURRECTION; and they asked him, saying…
Luke 12:1 Under these circumstances, after so many thousands of people had gathered together that they were stepping on one another, He began saying TO HIS DISCIPLES FIRST OF ALL ,"Beware of ‘the leaven of the Pharisees’, WHICH IS HYPOCRISY.
Luke 20:27 Now there came to Him some of the Sadducees (who say that there is no resurrection),
Acts 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor an angel, nor a spirit, but the Pharisees ACKNOWLEDGE THEM ALL
Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel. Thus declares the LORD who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and FORMS THE SPIRIT OF MAN WITHIN HIM,
Acts 7:59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, RECEIVE MY SPIRIT"
THIS IS WHAT JESUS SAID:
Luke 23:46 And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT." Having said this, He breathed His last.

Now can you see why JESUS said: DO NOT MARVEL AT THIS?   ...ALL THOSE IN THE MEMORIAL TOMBS WILL HEAR HIS VOICE ...AND COME OUT.......(from whever they are buried?)..that is RESURRECTION....
AND AFTER THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD...WHAT COMES?.......JUDGEMENT!

SO WHO DO WE BELIEVE?  JESUS...or the Sadducees?


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## blazingthru (May 26, 2010)

I found this great article. it really cleared up this question for me when I was searching for answers.
by Doug Batchelor


The Great Basin bristlecone pine can live more than 4,000 years and is believed to be one of the oldest living trees on the planet. Found on lonely mountain tops, some of these ancient evergreens have weathered thousands of years of intense freezing wind, pounding rain, scorching sun, and violent electrical storms. How do they manage to survive such harsh, adverse conditions? They send their roots deep, wrap them tenaciously around a solid rock, and hang on.

God's people will need to practice those same survival skills in the days just ahead. Jesus said that a terrible time of trouble would come upon the world just before His return and that it would be more intense than any other in the history of this world. "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved." Matthew 24:21, 22.

As Jesus spoke these words to His disciples, no doubt He was referring to a similar prophecy made by the prophet Daniel. "At that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." Daniel 12:1.

The good news is that God's children will survive the coming tribulation. Like the bristlecone pine, the saints will have to sink their roots of faith deep into the Word of God and cling tenaciously to the mighty Rock of Ages.

What Is the Tribulation?
As we discuss the great tribulation to take place just before Jesus returns, keep in mind that there have been several other "times of trouble" for God's people in the past.

For example, the children of Israel endured 400 years of tribulation just before the Exodus (Acts 7:6). The early Christians also passed through a time of trouble immediately after the stoning of Stephen (Acts 8:1). From A.D. 303-313, during the era represented by the Smyrna church (Revelation 2:10), God's people suffered a 10-year period of tribulation. But perhaps the most notable time of trouble was the 1,260 years of intense persecution waged against true Christians during the Dark Ages. "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and threescore days." "And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman." Revelation 12:6, 13.

As dark as each of these times were for God's people, none can compare with the final, great tribulation that is yet to take place. The great tribulation corresponds with the time during which the seven last plagues of Revelation chapter 16 will fall. "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God." Revelation 15:1.

God's wrath will be directed against the ones who disobey His law, distort His truth, and oppress His people. "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness." Romans 1:18.

The great tribulation also coincides with the Battle of Armageddon. Both take place immediately before Christ's second coming. "And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done."

It is my belief that the great time of trouble will last only a month or two. Here are a few Scriptures that show it will be a short period of time.

Revelation 18:8 tells us, "Therefore shall her plagues come in one day." A "day" in Bible prophecy represents one literal year (Ezekiel 4:6, Numbers 14:34, Luke 13:32). So when Revelation says that "her plagues come in one day," it means within, or less than, one year's time. The very nature of the seven last plagues-the rivers and seas turning to blood and the planet being scorched with great heat-would render it impossible for the human race to survive more than a month or two. This is why Jesus said, "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened." Matthew 24:22, NKJV.

The Dragon's Fury
The experience of the children of Israel just before the plagues fell on Egypt is a type, or symbol, of what will happen to God's people before the seven last plagues described in Revelation 16.

After 400 years of slavery, the Israelites had become influenced by the religion of Egypt and had lost sight of God's law. So before Moses and Aaron met with the Pharaoh, they first met with the leaders of Israel to encourage a revival of commitment to God's law-including the Sabbath of creation (Exodus 4:29-31). The people responded wholeheartedly, which is why the Pharaoh got angry and said to Moses and Aaron, "You make them rest from their labor!" Exodus 5:5, NKJV. Remember that the children of Israel knew the Sabbath was part of God's law before they ever came to Mount Sinai (Exodus 16:22-28).

Before the onset of the great tribulation, special attention is once again called to the subject of worship and the Sabbath commandment. In Revelation 14:7, an angel calls God's people to "worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." Revelation 14:7. The angel is clearly quoting from the Sabbath commandment, which says, "For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day." Exodus 20:11.

A rediscovery of the law of God, including the Sabbath truth, will be the alarm that wakes the dragon to fury. The devil hates the Sabbath because he knows that all love relationships are built upon time. If he can destroy the day that was set apart for God's people to spend quality time with their Creator, he can destroy the relationship. We see this happen over and over again between husband and wife as well as father and son. If you stop spending quality time together, soon the relationship will fall apart.

When the children of Israel responded to God's call to keep the seventh-day Sabbath holy, the Pharaoh became furious. He knew that as long as the people focused only on work, work, work, they would have no time to think about freedom. The devil is using the very same strategy today. His goal is to keep people so busy with work and so preoccupied with the cares of this life that they have no time to worship their Creator. He knows that if he can cause people to neglect the Sabbath rest, they will never have time to think seriously of salvation.

Looking down through history to the end of time, the Lord knew His faithful people would keep the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. That is why, in connection with the tribulation, Jesus advises His followers to "pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day." Matthew 24:20.

The time of trouble begins with the wrath of the devil against God's obedient children (Revelation 12:17) and ends with the wrath of God against the ones who obey the beast (Revelation 14:9, 10).


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## blazingthru (May 26, 2010)

No Second Chance
Before the great tribulation begins, God's people will experience a small time of trouble. During this time the saints will have to share their faith in the face of stiff social, political, and religious opposition. "And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name." Revelation 13:17.

This small time of trouble will resemble the period of time just before the plagues fell on Egypt. The angry Pharaoh tried to turn the hearts of his Israelite slaves against their God by forcing them to produce the usual quota of bricks without providing the necessary straw. In the same way, before the tribulation the government will use political and economic sanctions to pressure God's end-time people into receiving the mark of the beast. When this fails to deter the people of God from obedience, there will be a final death decree. "And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed." Revelation 13:15. At this time, the great tribulation begins and the seven last plagues start to fall.

The main reason this time will be so intense is because it will come after probation closes for the lost. "At that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." Daniel 12:1. Notice that when the tribulation begins, the cases of all people have been forever decided.

The door of salvation and grace will close for the world-just as the door on the ark closed seven days before the Flood began. At that time Jesus will declare, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give to every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:11, 12.

For the first time in the world's history, God's Spirit will be completely withdrawn from the lost. The unsaved will be given wholly over to demonic control. The saved will be sealed and the lost forever lost. No more changing teams!

God on Trial
If no one is converted by the plagues, then why does the Lord allow it?

For thousands of years God's Spirit has worked in the hearts of men. But He has warned that this would not always be so (Genesis 6:3). Satan must have an opportunity to demonstrate what a world that is completely under his power would be like. And so God will finally allow the winds of strife to blow unhindered-but not before His servants are sealed (Revelation 7:1-3).

The great tribulation will prove to the universe that nothing-not even the worst conditions in the history of the world-would change the characters of those still alive upon the earth. God's people will trust Him no matter what, and His enemies will rebel against Him no matter what.
Sometimes adversity brings a lost soul to repentance, but as the seven last plagues are being poured out, the wicked will reveal that there are no longer any redeemable threads in their fabric.

"The fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues; and they repented not to give him glory." Revelation 16:9.

"They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and did not repent of their deeds." Revelation 16:11, NKJV.

"Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great." Revelation 16:21.

Through the Tribulation With Christ
Many Christians believe that the righteous will all be raptured out of the world just before the time of trouble and that the wicked will be left behind to endure seven years of tribulation. Because it sounds appealing, this doctrine has gained widespread acceptance. But the fact remains that the Bible clearly teaches otherwise.

Here are but a few of the many Scriptures which teach that God's end-time people will go through the tribulation:


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## blazingthru (May 26, 2010)

The Bible describes the 144,000 as "they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." Revelation 7:14.

In His great prophetic discourse on the mount of Olives, Jesus made the following statement immediately after mentioning the tribulation: "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." Matthew 24:22. If the elect were not in the world during the great tribulation, they would not need the days to be shortened!

All throughout Scripture we see examples of the Lord saving His people through tribulation, not from it.

Noah was not saved from the Flood, but through it.

Daniel was not saved from the lions' den, but through it.

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego were not saved from the fiery furnace, but through it. In fact, Jesus went through it with them, and He will go through the great tribulation with us as well!

The children of Israel were not saved from Egypt before the plagues fell, but afterward. God demonstrated His love and power by preserving them in Egypt through the ten plagues. In the same way, the righteous will be in the world when the seven last plagues fall (Revelation 16), but God will preserve them.

God never promises that our lives will always be easy. Christ prayed to His Father for His disciples, "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil [one]." John 17:15. Likewise, in 2 Timothy 3:12 Paul states, "All that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." Paul also told a group of disciples that "We must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God." Acts 14:22.

Although God does not always provide an escape from tribulation, He does promise to give us the power and strength to get through it. "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13.

In His parable of the two home builders, Jesus taught that the storm comes to the wise man who builds on the rock just like surely as it comes to the fool who builds upon the sand (Matthew 7:24-27). The storm will come to all.

No Need to Fear
Picture, if you dare, this terrifying recipe. First, pour the entire contents of Armageddon into a pressure cooker, then slowly mix in the seven last plagues with one full bottle of Jacob's trouble and one whole crushed Babylon. Next, evenly stir in two full boxes of wrath-one from God and one from Satan. Cover securely and cook on high.

Sound appetizing?
We all seem to conjure up these frightening images when we think of the tribulation. Now try this instead. Picture Jesus in a fragile little boat on a dark sea, with the waves mounting and wind roaring. Mark 4:38-40 records the scene. "He was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish? And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm."

Then Christ said to them, "Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?" Jesus rested with the peace of a baby because He lived by faith in His heavenly Father. One message He delivered repeatedly throughout His ministry was "Fear not."

In John 16:33, Jesus said, "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

God does not want us to live by fear, but rather by faith. "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." 1 John 4:18.

During the world's darkest hour and greatest trial, God will supply the greatest peace and faith. We need only to remember that Jesus is in the boat with us. Though the furnace be heated seven times over, we can pass safely through it if Jesus is at our side.

The ninety-first Psalm contains special promises for those living during the last great tribulation. It says, "You shall not be afraid of the terror by night, Nor of the arrow that flies by day, Nor of the pestilence that walks in darkness, Nor of the destruction that lays waste at noonday. A thousand may fall at your side, And ten thousand at your right hand; But it shall not come near you. Only with your eyes shall you look, And see the reward of the wicked." Psalm 91:5-8, NKJV.

The Psalmist makes it clear we will be in the midst of the world during the plagues yet remain untouched if God is our refuge. "No evil shall befall you, Nor shall any plague come near your dwelling." Psalm 91:10, NKJV.

Rescue from the Skies
On Friday June 2, 1995, Captain Scott O'Grady was flying his F-16 over Bosnia when his plane was cut in two by Serbian anti-aircraft fire. He quickly ejected and parachuted to the ground. Suddenly he found himself in a different, hostile world with the entire Serbian army combing every inch of ground in search of him. For six days he prayed, often hiding with his face in the dirt to avoid being seen by enemy soldiers passing within a few feet. For six long days he survived-cold, wet, tired, hungry, eating bugs and drinking dirty water, calling every night on his little radio for help from above, running from enemies, and hiding under bushes. Then came a daring rescue from the skies. Forty airships, hundreds of soldiers, satellites, and the combined technology of all NATO were all engaged to rescue one hunted soldier.

Will God do less for His people?
When Captain Scott O'Grady returned to the United States, he was hailed as a hero. Why? Because he had come out of great tribulation. We too may have to endure a brief time of trouble, but it will fade into insignificance when compared with the glorious moment when Jesus comes crashing through the skies with his angelic armies to rescue His children.

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us." Romans 8:18.


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## Mahalialee4 (May 26, 2010)

Blazingthru, I second that.  Just a little more on the Sabbath.

Man....may have done away with it.....'certain DOCTRINES AND TEACHINGS' may have done away with it...but Moses ("perpuual covenant and forever)...says and Christ says:  THEY DISAGREE with those teachings. I agree with Moses and Christ.

precepts:

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Exodus 31:13 "But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you.
16Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a PERPETUAL COVENANT. 17It is a sign between me and the children of Israel FOR EVER: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed


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## Mahalialee4 (May 26, 2010)

taytay86 said:


> _This confuses me - the rest of the dead? If this is refering to the dead in Christ, I thought after the tribulation and after the trumpet the dead will rise first, and then the living will be caught up in the clouds....erplexed_
> 
> *This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.*
> 
> ...



THE SECOND DEATH
Read the Scriptures in context.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death
Revelation 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Why it has no power over the first fruits?  Because they are clothed with IMMORTALITY. (rememeber what you read?)
As for Christians living now?...does the second death refer to them.?..THE SCRIPTURES SAY: 
Revelation 20:15 And IF ANYONE'S NAME WAS NOT FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


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## Mahalialee4 (May 26, 2010)

YOUR QUESTION :Is this the same thousand years?

Here is the context of the Scriptures:
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and BOUND HIM  THOUSAND YEARS, 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ A THOUSAND YEARS. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again UNTIL THE THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 
7And WHEN THE THOUSAND YEARS ARE EXPIRED, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

If it speaks of Christ's reign of a THOUSAND YEARS...AND THOSE WHO REIGN WITH HIM, at the same time...OVER THE EARTH....AND AT THE END OF THE THOUSAND YEARS THERE IS A RESURRECTON........ is there another OR DIFFERENT thousand years according TO THE SCRIPTURES?


Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
John 17:2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
Daniel 7:14 "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.

Will there be   PEOPLE ON THE EARTH   DURING the thousand years?

Revelation 20: 7And when the THOUSAND YEARS ARE EXPIRED, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out TO DECEIVE THE NATIONS WHICH ARE IN THE FOUR QUARTERS OF THE EARTH,  Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: THE NUMBER OF WHOM IS AS THE SAND OF THE SEA.

Also the great numbers to be resurrected at the end of the thousand years.  (remember the resurrection at the end of the thousand years?

So What Happens At  THE END of EVERYTHING?...REGARDING CHRIST AND THE KINGDOM
1 Corinthians: 24Then cometh THE END, when  HE shall have delivered up THE KINGDOM , TO GOD, EVEN THE FATHER;   when he (Christ) shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he (Christ) must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he (Christ)hath put all things under his feet.    But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him,       then shall the Son also HIMSELF BE SUBJECT TO HIM THAT PUT ALL THINGS UNDER HIM,    that GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.


So does this leave room for another or different THOUSAND YEARS?...CONSIDERING ALL THAT TRANSPIRES IN THE THOUSAND YEARS?...ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES..PRECEPTS AND FULFILMENTS?


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## taytay86 (May 26, 2010)

there is so much to read  - I still haven't finished reading all of page two of your posts Mahalialee4. Please forgive my questions as they will be all over the place. Since I don't want to forget, I try to ask my questions after each post.

I will continue reading....thanks so much


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## Mahalialee4 (May 26, 2010)

taytay86 said:


> there is so much to read  - I still haven't finished reading all of page two of your posts Mahalialee4. Please forgive my questions as they will be all over the place. Since I don't want to forget, I try to ask my questions after each post.
> 
> I will continue reading....thanks so much



kEEP READING. Perhaps you could read all the way through...write down your questions as you go...set them to the side....and after you have finished reading the Scriptures through ....if you have any questions...then post them.  This will avoid a lot of frustration on your part and eliminate confusion in the middle of things, or going off in so many different directions...remember...line upon line...precept upon precept...(smile)

You are very welcome.


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## taytay86 (May 26, 2010)

This is exactly what I will do. It will take me some time, but I'll be back:scratchch: - thank you.


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## metamorfhosis (May 26, 2010)

Hi taytay86-

You have probably been exposed to the bible verses that support the pre-tribulation rapture. The one that seals the deal for me is Revelation 3:10 - Click here 

And the bible verse that tells me that there will be christians who will partake in the tribulation is Revelation 20:4 - Click here


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## blazingthru (May 27, 2010)

Where does it say those that are in hell will be taken out and judged? 

We have to do things in order - You have to remember you can't always read the chapters in groups you have to break them down (sometimes). The bible is design for research and study.  You have to first learn the character of God.. He is a loving God, He is faithful and truth.  This entire thing with Hell is not something he wants to do.  So if your thinking that people are burning in hell now as we speak, what do you think about the Character of God.  We serve a Just God. He would not have someone burning in Hell forever and his forever is not our forever its until the end of a thing.  Sodom and Gomorrah is an example of his forever, it burned until it was ashe.  thats it.  Satan encouraged us to think that those tales are true but they are not true. he is not burning in hell. He is walking around going here and there all over the earth seeing who he can devour( turn his way) that is what he is doing because he has only a little while and then he will come into his power. That is our tribulation getting through it.  But God promises to seal his people. Everything comes down to worship that is truly what this is all about.


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## taytay86 (May 27, 2010)

This is great - ladies, while I'm reading and preparing my questions (I don't want to rush this) what chapters should I read along with Revelations? I know the Bible is not in chronological order, so I want to make sure I am reading all the related chapters in sequence.

From what I see they are: Thess, Daniel, The Gospels, Ezekiel? Anything else?

I have a study Bible from Jimmy Swaggat - is he OK to read? I am now trying to stay away from man's interpretation, and just read the Bible for what it is. BUT I must admit the language is a bit hard to understand at times. But I guess this is where the Spirit of Truth comes in :scratchch:


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## Mahalialee4 (May 28, 2010)

Does he have THE SAYINGS OF JESUS IN IT?.... This site may be very helpful to you.....http://bible.cc/
It has all the parallel versions and so much more...perfect study site. Also if you want to read the King James 1611 Bible, here it is at this site: http://www.servantofjesuschrist.com/kjv1611/index.html

MAY YOU BE BLESSED BY THE WORD OF GOD
THE WORD OF GOD:  Doctrine of Christ versus the Doctrines and Commands of Men
Not knowing the DIFFERENCE CAN DESTROY YOU, even wreck your Faith

Without the Word of God and knowing how to use it….you will be like a soldier without a weapon in the worst battles you will every have to fight. Two Vital Things To Be Able to BE ABLE TO STAND IN THE EVIL DAY.
Ephesians 6: 14  STAND therefore, having your loins girt about with TRUTH,
Ephesians 6:17 :  “And take the helmet of salvation, and THE SWORD OF THE SPIRIT, which is THE WORD OF GOD.

1 Timothy 4: 1Now THE SPIRIT SPEAKETH EXPRESSLY,   THAT IN THE LATTER TIMES   SOME SHALL DEPART FROM THE FAITH,  GIVING HEED TO ‘SEDUCING SPIRITS, and DOCTRINES OF DEVILS 2   SPEAKING LIES IN HYPOCRISY,  HAVING THEIR CONSCIENCE SEARED WITH A HOT IRON...

(E.G.)...  3 FORBIDDING TO MARRY, and COMMANDING TO ABSTAIN FROM MEAT, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them WHICH BELIEVE AND KNOW THE TRUTH. 

1 TIMOTHY 4: 6If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained."

1 Corinthians 2:10 “For to US God  REVEALED THEM THROUGH THE SPIRIT; for THE SPIRIT SEARCHES ALL THINGS, EVEN THE DEPTHS OF GOD.

WE WILL ALL BE TESTED AND FACED….ON WHERE WE STAND ON THE TRUTH….ON THE WORD….

HEAR HIM: CHRIST! …When you make a STAND FOR TRUTH….YOU WILL MAKE ENEMIES….PEOPLE WILL BECOME ANGRY……By that I mean…..When you stand up for the Word, even if it disagrees with everyone around you, and what they believe and have to say…..they will become ‘offended’….because of the Truth….especially if it exposes ‘THE SPIRIT OF ERROR.’

1 John 4:6 “We are of God: he that KNOWETH GOD HEARETH US; he THAT IS NOT OF GOD HEARETH NOT US.  HEREBY KNOW WE THE ‘SPIRIT OF TRUTH’….AND THE ‘SPIRIT OF ERROR.’Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

JjOHN 14: 6 “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me
Luke 12:51 "Do you suppose that I came to grant PEACE? I tell you, NO, but rather DIVISION
JESUS: 32Whosoever therefore SHALL CONFESS ‘ME’ BEFORE MEN, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33But whosoever SHALL DENY ‘ME’ BEFORE MEN , him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. 
34THINK NOT THAT I AM COME TO SEND PEACE ON EARTH: I came NOT TO SEND PEACE, BUT A SWORD 
35For I am come “to set a man at variance against his father” …, and “the daughter against her mother”,    and “the daughter in law against her mother in law.”    36And a man's foes shall be they OF HIS OWN HOUSEHOLD. “
37He that loveth father or mother MORE THAN ME is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. 39He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it
HOW SERIOUS IS OUR GOD? REMEMBER, JUDGEMENT BEGINS AT THE HOUSE OF GOD: PAUL WARNS:5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; BECAUSE THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH,   THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. 11And FOR THIS CAUSE GOD SHALL SEND THEM STRONG DELUSION,   THAT THEY SHOULD BELIEVE A LIE : 12THAT THEY MIGHT ALL BE DAMNED WHO BELIEVED NOT THE TRUTH, BUT HAD PLEASURE IN UNRIGHTEOUS.”
1 Peter 4:17 “For THE TIME IS COME   that JUDGEMENT BEGINS AT THE HOUSE OF GOD: and IF IT FIRST BEGIN AT US, what shall THE END OF THEM   THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF GOD?”


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## Mahalialee4 (May 28, 2010)

Scriptures re: The Word...WHO was in the beginning with God...FOR YOUR REFERENCE:

John 1:14 And THE WORD BECAME FLESH, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
We are not going to be saved or spared because of the COMMANDMENTS AND DOCTRINES OF MEN
WE ARE NOT GOING TO GO THROUGH THE DOOR ANY OTHER WAY. 

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 10:9 "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
Ephesians 2:18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.
1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and HAS GIVEN US UNDERSTANDING SO THAT WE MAY KNOW HIM WHO IS TRUE; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.



PRECEPTS FOR BELIEVERS TO WALK WITH AND KNOW HOW TO USE THE SWORD:

Isaiah 11:4 “But with righteousness He will judge the poor, And decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth; And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked.

Nehemiah 4:17 “Those who were rebuilding the wall and those who carried burdens took their load with one hand doing the work and the other holding A WEAPON.”

Psalm 149:6 “Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a TWO- EDGED SWORD IN THEIR HAND.

Hebrews 4:12 :  “ For THE WORD OF GOD IS LIVING AND ACTIVE AND SHARPER THAN ANY TWO EDGED-SWORD, and PIERCING AS FAR AS THE DIVISION OF SOUL AND SPIRIT, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart  (Soul…your feelings and emotions etc.))…ABLE TO JUDGE THE THOUGHTS….AND INTENTIONS OF THE HEART.  (People reveal where they REALLY STAND….by the way they react to SCRIPTURAL TRUTH….HOW THEY REALLY THINK….AND WHAT THEIR INTENTIONS ARE……


Jude 1:19 These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit.
Hosea 6:5 Therefore I have hewn them in pieces by the prophets; I HAVE SLAIN THEM BY THE WORDS OF MY MOUTH; And the judgments on you are like the light that goes forth.
Isaiah 49:2 HE HAS MADE MY MOUTH LIKE A SHARP SWORD, In the shadow of His hand He has concealed Me; And He has also made Me a select arrow, He has hidden Me in His quiver.

Revelation 19:15 “And out of his mouth goeth A SHARP SWORD, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Revelation 19:21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh. “

James 3: 13Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. 14But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. 15This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. 16For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. 17But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. 18And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.


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## Mahalialee4 (May 28, 2010)

CHRIST IS NOT going to be SWAYED BY OUR EMOTIONS…WHEN IT COMES TO WHETHER WE ARE OBEDIENT TO THE WORD OR NOT…, if we are doing our own will or the will of some other man, ...how are we  going to DEAL WITH THIS…..in that day?
Matthew 7:  21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN. 22   MANY will say to me IN THAT DAY, Lord, Lord, HAVE WE NOT PROPHESIED IN   THY NAME? and  IN THY NAME CAST OUT DEVILS? and IN THY NAME DONE MANY WONDERFUL WORKS? 23AndTHEN WILL I PROFESS TO UNTO THEM,  I NEVER KNEW YOU;   DEPART FROM ME,  YE THAT WORK INIQUITY.
Paul was locked up for speaking the Truth!
How did the ‘religious people’ react to Paul when he dared to SPEAK CONTRARY TO THEIR ‘DOCTRINE’….TO THEIR TEACHINGS? When he put the Word of God above theirs.  He says HE STOOD AMONG THEM AND CRIED OUT….SPEAKING ON THE RESURRECTION….and even Felix, WHO UNDERSTOOD TRUTH…’BECAUSE HE WANTED TO BE POPULAR WITH THE PEOPLE……CAVED IN AND WENT ALONG WITH KEEPING PAUL IN CHAINS.
Acts 24:12And they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither raising up the people, neither in the synagogues, nor in the city: 13Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me. 14But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they THEY CALL HERESY, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing ALL things which ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS: 15And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that THERE SHALL BE A RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, BOTH OF THE JUST AND UNJUST..
Acts 24:15 15And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow,  THAT THERE SHALL BE A RESURRECTION 
OF THE DEAD, BOTH OF THE JUST AND THE UNJUST.
21Except it be FOR THIS ONE VOICE, that I CRIED STANDING AMONG THEM,  TOUCHING THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD I AM CALLED IN QUESTION BY YOU THIS DAY. 
22And when Felix heard these things, having more perfect knowledge of that way, he deferred them, and said, When Lysias the chief captain shall come down, I will know the uttermost of your matter. 23And he commanded a centurion to keep Paul, and to let him have liberty, and that he should forbid none of his acquaintance to minister or come unto him. 
24And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ. 25And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee. 26He hoped also that money should have been given him of Paul, that he might loose him: wherefore he sent for him the oftener, and communed with him. 27But after two years Porcius Festus came into Felix' room: and Felix, willing to shew the Jews a pleasure, left Paul bound


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## Mahalialee4 (May 28, 2010)

THE SWORD OF TRUTH  WILL EXPOSE US ALL:

Mark 7:6 And He said to them, "Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you HYPOCRITES, as it is written: 'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
Mark 7:7 Howbeit IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,   TEACHING FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN.


Scripture line and precept:
Isaiah 29:13Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men

Ezekiel 33:31 "They come to you as people come, and sit before you as My people and hear your words, but they do not do them, for they do the lustful desires expressed by their mouth, and their heart goes after their gain.

Job 34:22 "There is no darkness or deep shadow Where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves.


Mark 7:3 (For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they carefully wash their hands, thus observing the TRADITIONS OF THE ELDERS

Mark 7:5 “Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the TRADITION OF THE ELDERS, but eat bread with unwashen hands?

Mark 7:9 “And he said unto them, Full well ye REJECT THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD, that ye may KEEP YOUR OWN TRADITION
Mark 7:17  “MAKING THE WORD OF GOD OF NONE EFFECT   THROUGH YOUR TRADITION,  WHICH YE HAVE DELIVERED,   MANY SUCH LIKE THINGS DO YE..

Mark 15:9 But IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,   TEACHING FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN.

Galatians 1:14 And ‘PROFITED’  in the Jews' RELIGION above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the TRADITIONS OF MY FATHERS of my fathers

Galatians 2:5 But WE DID NOT YIELD IN SUBJECTION TO THEM FOR EVEN AN HOUR,   SO THAT THE TRUTH OF THE GOSPEL WOULD REMAIN WITH YOU.

Galatians 2:14  “But when I saw that THEY WALKED NOT UPRIGHTLY ACCORDING TO THE TRUTH OF THE GOSPEL, l, I said unto Peter before them all, IF THOU BEING A JEW, LIVEST AFTER THE MANNER OF THE GENTILES, AND NOT AS DO THE JEWS, WHY COMPELLEST THE GENTILES TO LIVE AS DO THE JEWS?


Colossians 1:5 because of the HOPE laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard IN THE TRUTH, THE GOSPEL..”

2 Timothy 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

Colossians 2:22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)-- in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
1 Timothy 1:4 nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith.
________________________________________
Titus: 1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; 3But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; 
4To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. 
5For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: 6If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. 7For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; 8But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; 9Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. 
10For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. 12One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. 13This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. 15Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16They PROFESS that THEY KNOW GOD; but in WORKS     they DENY HIM,     being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate


Colossians 2:8”See to it that NO ONE TAKES YOU CAPTIVE no one takes you captive THROUGH PHILOSOPHY  and EMPTY DECEPTION,   ACCORDING TO THE TRADITION OF MEN,   ACCORDING TO THE ELEMENTARY (Pagan) PRINCIPLES  of OF THE WORLD,   RATHER THAN   ACCORDING TO CHRIST.

Colossians 1:5 because of the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard IN THE WORD OF TRUTH,   the GOSPEL.


Galatians 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
Acts 22:3 "I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, EDUCATED UNDER GAMALIEL,  STRICTLY ACCORDING TO THE LAW OF OUR FATHERS, being ZEALOUS FOR GOD just as you all are today.


Micah 6:16 “For THE STATUTES OF OMRI ARE KEPT, and ALL THE WORKS OF THE HOUSE OF AHAB, and YE WALK IN THEIR COUNSELS; that I should make thee a desolation, and the inhabitants thereof an hissing: therefore ye shall bear the reproach of my people.

Jeremiah 9:14 but have walked AFTER THE STUBBORNESS OF THEIR HEART, and AFTER THE BAALS,   AS THEIR FATHERS TAUGHT THEM,"
Jeremiah 7:24 "Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but WALKED IN THEIR OWN COUNSELS and IN THE STUBBORNESS OF THEIR EVIL HEART,, and WENT BACKWARD AND NOT FORWARD.

Matthew 15:5 "But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God,"
6. And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by YOUR TRADITION.

How often do we CANCEL OUT out the effectiveness of God's Word working in our lives, because OUR TRADITIONS, and the WORDS AND COMMANDS OF MEN...have more value.  WE MAKE HIS WORD 'NUL AND VOID!  We will fight about "our tradition", "what he or she says is how we should do'....BUT HOW MANY OF US WILL STAND UP FOR THE WORD AND NOT BACK DOWN AGAINST A LIE....just to keep the peace.   But, now, We can simply say: I AM STANDING ON THE WORD AND THE PROMISES OF GOD, and STAND ON IT!  period...we do not need to "fight" and "wrangle" and GET PHYSICAL....just STAND!!!!

Ephesians tells us to have on all our armour...pray without ceasing, etc. And after we have done all these things...."STAND!"


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## Mahalialee4 (May 28, 2010)

Finally,  if we ‘believe we are in the last day’  , JUST HOW IMPORTANT IS ‘CHOOSING CHRIST’ AND WHAT HE SAYS?
The things ‘we are doing for the Lord’…..the sacrifices we are making, for the Lord’….all our ‘good intentions’  ‘all of our ‘feelings’  ….OUR ways of WORSHIP…HOW DO THEY MEASURE AGAINST HIS WORD? 

John 12:48 JESUS SAID: HE THAT REJECTETH ME, and    RECEIVETH NOT MY WORDS,     HATH ONE THAT JUDGETH HIM;   THE WORD    THAT I HAVE SPOKEN,   THE SAME    WILL JUDGE HIM IN THE LAST DAY.

PRECEPTS: 
Ecclesiates 5:1 “Keep thy foot WHEN THO GOEST TO THE HOUSE OF GOD, and BE MORE READY TO HEAR,  THAN TO GIVE THE SACRIFICE OF FOOLS;   FOR THEY CONSIDER NOT THAT THEY DO EVIL.”
Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY WHOM YE WILL SERVE,; whether the GODS WHICH YOUR FATHERS SERVED THAT WERE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FLOOD,  OR THE GODS OF THE AMORITES,   IN WHOSE LAND YE DWELL: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.



1 Samuel 15:22 Samuel said, "Has the LORD as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices As in OBEYING THE VOICE OF THE LORD? Behold, TO OBEY IS BETTER THAN SACRIFICE, And to heed than the fat of rams.

Acts 6:7 The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and A GREAT MANY OF THE PRIESTS WERE BECOMING OBEDIENT TO THE FAITH.

Jude 1:17 But you, beloved, ought to REMEMBER THE WORDS THAT WERE SPOKE BEFOREHAND BY THE APOSTLES OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST.


1 Timothy 6:12 Fight THE GOOD FIGHT OF FAITH;   TAKE HOLD OF THE ETERNAL LIFE TO WHICH YOU WERE CALLED, and YOU MADE THE GOOD CONFESSION IN THE PRESENCE OF MANY WITNESSES.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that YE SHOULD EARNESTLY CONTEND FOR THE FAITH WHICH WAS…… ONCE……DELIVERED UNTO THE SAINTS.

Paul wept tears over US…those who have served as overseers, …the flock,  and said to the overseers: 

28Take heed therefore    UNTO YOURSELVES ,     AND TO ALL THE FLOCK, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, TO FEED THE CHURCH OF GOD, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29For I KNOW THIS,  THAT AFTER MY DEPARTING…. SHALL GRIEVOUS WOLVES ENTER IN AMONG YOU,    NOT SPARING THE FLOCK . 30   Also OF YOUR OWN SELVES SHALL MEN ARISE,    SPEAKING PERVERSE THINGS,   TO DRAW AWAY DISCIPLES AFTER THEM.31Therefore WATCH, and REMEMBER, that by the space of three years I CEASED NOT TO WARN  EVERY ONE NIGHT AND DAY WITH TEARS.


MANY ARE CRYING OUT FOR CHRIST TO COME…..
Luke 18:  7And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 8I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless WHEN THE SON OF MAN COMETH, SHALL HE FIND FAITH ON THE EARTH? 
THE BOTTOM LINE IS 'CHOOSING WHOM YOU WILL SERVE'. THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE FOR EVERY ONE...BELIEVER OR UNBELIEVER....WHEN ALL IS SAID AND DONE:

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for ME and MY HOUSE, WE will serve the LORD.

That is all that was laid on my heart to share with you.


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## Mahalialee4 (May 28, 2010)

Additional Scriptures to consider: KEEPING THE FAITH


 1 Tim 1:19Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck

1 Timothy 6:21 which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith. Grace be with you.

2 Timothy 2:18 men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some
Titus 1:11 who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain.
1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
Proverbs 25:14 Like clouds and wind without rain Is a man who boasts of his gifts falsely.

Ephesians 4:14 As a result, WE ARE NO LONGER TO BE CHILDREN,  TOSSED HERE AND THERE BY WAVES AND CARRIED ABOUT BY EVERY WIND OF DOCTRINE, by the TRICKERY OF MEN, by CRAFTINESS, DECEITFUL SCHEMING;

Jude 1:12 "These are SPOTS in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves WITHOUT FEAR: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

WHAT JESUS ENDURED FROM FALSE SHEPHERDS AND PRIESTS WARNINGS TO PRIESTS ,PASTORS, PROPHETS

Luke 22:2 The CHIEF PRIESTS AND THE SCRIBES were seeking how they might put Him to death; for they were afraid of the people.
Mark 14:1 After two days was the feast of the passover, and of unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death
Matthew 27:1 Now when morning came, all the chief priests and the elders of the people conferred together against Jesus to put Him to death

WARNING:
Malachi 2:1 “And now, O YE PRIESTS,, this commandment IS FOR YOU. 2If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart. 3Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it. 4And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts. 5My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name. 6The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity. 7For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts. 8But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts. 9Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.”


PRECEPTS OF WARNING:  AVOID CREATURE WORSHIP...WORSHIPPING MAN
Jeremiah 10:21 For the shepherds have become stupid And have not sought the LORD; Therefore they have not prospered, And all their flock is scattered.
Jeremiah 23:1 “Woe be unto the PASTORS that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD”
Jeremiah 50:6 "My people have become lost sheep; Their shepherds HAVE LED THEM ASTRAY. They have made them turn aside on the mountains; They have gone along from mountain to hill And have forgotten their resting place.
Ezekiel 13:3 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Woe to the FOOLISH PROPHETS  who are following THEIR OWN and have SEEN NOTHING.
Zechariah 11:17 "Woe to the worthless shepherd Who leaves the flock! A sword will be on his arm And on his right eye! His arm will be totally withered And his right eye will be blind."

Ezekiel 34:; Zechariah 10:3; 11:3; 11:5;  Isaiah 56:11; Jeremiah 23: 4:


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## Guitarhero (May 28, 2010)

I believe so.  I first hesitated to participate in this one but it forced me to go back and reread what I was taught.  

Revelations is symbolic and the golden age is not one where there's going to be a total lack of evil, but will co-exist with the good, as in now.  Christ's Church already rules, but from heaven.  There will be a day when the believers are gathered together, rapture, but not until the Second Coming.  There are not three according to what I was taught, based upon scriptures.  And the following do not indicate that Christ was on the earth during this reign.   Rather, it is in heaven.

Revelation 4:1-4

 1After (A)these things I looked, and behold, (B)a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, (C)like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, "(D)Come up here, and I will (E)show you what must take place after these things."

 2Immediately I was [a](F)in the Spirit; and behold, (G)a throne was standing in heaven, and (H)One sitting on the throne.

 3And He who was sitting was like a (I)jasper stone and a (J)sardius in appearance; and there was a (K)rainbow around the throne, like an (L)emerald in appearance.

 4(M)Around the throne were (N)twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw (O)twenty-four elders (P)sitting, clothed in (Q)white garments, and (R)golden crowns on their heads. 

Revelations 11: 15-16

15Then the (AJ)seventh angel sounded; and there were (AK)loud voices in heaven, saying, "(AL)The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of (AM)His [c]Christ; and (AN)He will reign forever and ever."

 16And the twenty-four elders, who (AO)sit on their thrones before God, (AP)fell on their faces and worshiped God, 

Rev. 20:4-6

4Then I saw (H)thrones, and (I)they sat on them, and (J)judgment was given to them And I saw (K)the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their (L)testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not (M)worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the (N)mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they (O)came to life and (P)reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. (Q)This is the first resurrection.

 6(R)Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the (S)second death has no power, but they will be (T)priests of God and of Christ and will (U)reign with Him for a thousand years. 

In the meantime, the recommendation is:

"But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, *that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.* The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. . . . Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire! But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace" (2 Pet. 3:8–14).


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## Mahalialee4 (May 29, 2010)

YOUR quote: Revelations is symbolic and ****the golden age is *****not one where there's going to be a total lack of evil, ******but will co-exist with the good,      ****as in now*****

..........................................

HEAR THE APOSTLES
2 Peter 3:13 “NEVERTHELESS,   WE,    ACCORDING TO HIS PROMISE,   LOOK FOR NEW HEAVENS AND A NEW EARTH, WHEREIN DWELLETH        RIGHTEOUSNESS.”



PRECEPTS:

1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, THAT I WILL RAISE UP THY SEED AFTER THEE,   WHICH SHALL BE OF THY SONS,  AND I WILL ESTABLISH HIS KINGDOM.

Daniel 2:44 And    IN THE DAYS OF THESE KINGS    SHALL THE GOD OF HEAVEN SET UP A KINGDOM,    which shall never be destroyed: and THE KINGDOM shall not be left to other people, but IT SHALL BREAK IN PIECES    AND    CONSUME ALL THESE KINGDOMS, AND IT SHALL STAND FOREVER..

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and “””””THE GOVERNMENT SHALL BE UPON HIS SHOULDER””””: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The PRINCE OF PEACE.

Isaiah 24:1 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.



Revelation 1:  1 THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST, WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM,  to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and KEEP THOSE THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN THEREIN: for the time is at hand.

HEAR HIM:

Revelation 3:21 'He who overcomes, I WILL GRANT TO SIT DOWN WITH ME ON MY THRONE, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
Revelation 5:10  “And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and WE SHALL REIGN ON THE EARTH.”
Revelation 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
Revelation 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, THEIR PART WILL BE in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Revelation 22:15 OUTSIDE are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying
1 Corinthians 6:9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,”
Galatians 5:21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5 For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Romans 8:21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.


HEAR HIM:
Revelation 21:1 "And I saw A NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, NEW JERUSALEM, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and HE WILL DWELL WITH THEM, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 
5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. 
9And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 
10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 

HEAR HIM: 
Luke 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. THY KINGDOM COME.  THY WILL BE DONE,  AS IN HEAVEN,    SO IN EARTH..



Matthew 13:41 “The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and THEY SHALL GATHER OUT OF HIS KINGDOM  ALL THINGS THAT OFFEND,   AND THEM THAT DO INIQUITY;” 
Revelation 3:1 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and  THE NAME OF THE CITY OF MY GOD, WHICH IS   ‘’’’’NEW JERUSALEM’’’’,     “””” WHICH COMETH DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN””””””…….FROM MY GOD”””””: and I will write upon him my new name....


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## Mahalialee4 (May 29, 2010)

HEAR THE PROPHETS: 
PRECEPTS

Isaiah 2:2 Now it will come about that IN THE LAST DAYS,  THE MOUNTAIN OF THE HOUSE OF THE LORD WILL BE ESTABLISHED AS THE CHIEF OF THE MOUNTAINS, And will be raised above the hills; And ALL THE NATIONS WILL STREAM TO IT.
Micah 4:1 And it will come about IN THE LAST DAYS, That THE MOUNTAIN OF THE LORD WILL BE ESTABLISHED AS THE CHIEF OF THE MOUNTAINS. It will be raised above the hills, And THE PEOPLE WILL STREAM TO IT.
Micah 4:2 MANY NATIONS WILL COME AND SAY, "Come and let us go up TO THE MOUNTAIN OF THE LORD AND TO THE HOUSE OF THE GOD OF JACOB, That He may teach us about His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For FROM ZION will go forth THE LAW,  EVEN THE WORD OF THE LORD FROM JERUSALEM.
Micah 4:3  “And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more

Isaiah 2:4 And HE WILL JUDGE BETWEEN THE NATIONS, And WILL RENDER DECISIONS FOR MANY PEOPLES; will render decisions for many peoples; And THEY WILL HAMMER THEIR SWORDS INTO PLOWSHARES AND THEIR SPEARS INTO PRUNING HOOKS.  NATION WILL  NOT   LIFT UP SWORD AGAINST NATION,   AND   NEVER AGAIN WILL THEY LEARN WAR.   
Isaiah 10:12 SO IT  WILL BE     that when the Lord has completed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, He will say, "I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the pomp of his haughtiness."

Isaiah 13:11 THUS I WILL PUNISH THE WORLD FOR ITS EVIL AND THE WICKED FOR THEIR INIQUITY.; I will also PUT AN END TO the arrogance of the proud And abase the haughtiness of the ruthless
.”


Isaiah 60:21 "THEN ALL YOUR PEOPLE WILL BE RIGHTEOUS;  THEY WILL POSSESS THE LAND FOREVER, The branch of My planting, The work of My hands, That I may be glorified.
Isaiah 65:17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And  THE FORMER THINGS WILL NOT BE REMEMBERED OR COME TO MIND.”
Isaiah 65:25 "The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent's food. They will DO NO EVIL OR HARM IN ALL MY HOLY MOUNTAIN," says the LORD.
Isaiah 66:23 "And it shall be from NEW MOON TO NEW MOON And FROM SABBATH TO SABBATH, ALL MANKIND WILL COME TO BOW DOWN BEFORE ME," says the LORD.
Hosea 2:18 "In that day I will also make a covenant for them With the beasts of the field, The birds of the sky And the creeping things of the ground. And I WILL ABOLISH THE BOW, THE SWORD, AND WAR FROM THE LAND, And will make them lie down in safety. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for THE EARTH SHALL BE FULL OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD, AS THE WATERS COVER THE SEA.
Isaiah 66:23 "And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD.
Isaiah 65:25 "The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent's food. They will do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain," says the LORD.
Micah 4:3  “And he shall JUDGE among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.”

Proverbs 28:5 Evil men understand not JUDGEMENT: but they that seek the LORD understand all things

DAVID SAID: Psalm 119:100 I understand more than the aged, Because I have OBSERVED YOUR 'PRECEPTS'.


Isaiah 5: 20Woe unto them that call EVIL GOOD, and GOOD EVIL; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Romans 2:9 “TRIBULATION and anguish, UPON EVERY SOUL OF MAN THAT DOTH EVIL , of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;”
Psalm 9:5 You have rebuked the nations, You have destroyed the wicked; You have blotted out their name forever and ever.
Proverbs 2:21For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it. 22But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it. 
.


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## Mahalialee4 (May 29, 2010)

You ask many questions: 
Have you ever asked yourself these questions?

Corinthians 6:16 Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For WE ARE THE TEMPLE OF THE LIVING GOOD; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

DO YOU THINK THAT GOD WAS JUST MAKING UP STUFF?

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

DID THAT ACTUALLY HAPPEN?   DID JESUS ACTUALLY COME TO THE EARTH?
Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

MORE QUESTIONS:

WHERE WAS  JESUS WHEN THIS VOICE SPOKE FROM HEAVEN?   IN HEAVEN OR ON EARTH?

Luke 9:35 “And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him

IF HE WAS COMING UP OUT OF THE WATER AND JOHN THE BAPTIST WAS THERE, WAS THIS ON EARTH OR WAS IT IN HEAVEN?

2 Peter 1:19 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, WHEN WE WERE WITH HIM (CHRIST) IN THE HOLY MOUNT
WHERE WAS JESUS AND PETER AND THE OTHER APOSTLE THAT HEARD THE VOICE FROM HEAVEN?   IN HEAVEN OR ON EARTH?
.

Revelation 18:4 “ And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”

WHERE ARE HIS PEOPLE AT THE TIME THAT THIS VOICE IS SPEAKING TELLING THEM TO COME OUT OF BABYLON ?  IN HEAVEN OR ON EARTH?

Genesis 21:17  “And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar OUT OF HEAVEN, and SAID UNTO HER,  “What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.”

WHERE WAS HAGAR AND ISHMAEL WHEN THE  VOICE WAS SPEAKING TO HER OUT OF HEAVEN? 

Genesis 21:14And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba. 15And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs. 16And she went, and sat her down over against him a good way off, as it were a bowshot: for she said, Let me not see the death of the child. And she sat over against him, and lift up her voice, and wept. 17And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is. 18Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation. 19And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink. 20And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. 21And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt. 

So because the voice spoke out of heaven…..WAS SHE AND HER SON IN HEAVEN?  Or was she in the wilderness of Beersheba?

JESUS SAID:  John 5:28 “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice AND COME OUT...

ARE THERE GRAVES IN HEAVEN?DO WE BURY THE DEAD IN HEAVEN OR ON EARTH?

Deuteronomy 4:36 “Out of heaven he made you to hear his voice, that he might instruct you: and on earth he showed you his great fire; and you heard his words out of the middle of the fire.”


HAS GOD EVER COME DOWN TO EARTH SINCE THE TIME OF ADAM?


Exodus 19: 9 “And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD
Exodus 19:19 When the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder, Moses spoke and God answered him with thunder.
Exodus 20:18 All the people perceived the thunder and the lightning flashes and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood at a distance.
Exodus 20:22 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'You yourselves have seen that I have spoken to you from heaven.
Exodus 24:15 Then Moses went up to the mountain, and the cloud covered the mountain.
Exodus 24:16 The glory of the LORD rested on Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it for six days; and on the seventh day He called to Moses from the midst of the cloud

Exodus 33:20 But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"
Exodus 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
Deuteronomy 4:12 "Then the LORD spoke to you from the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of words, but you saw no form-- only a voice.
Nehemiah 9:13 "Then YOU CAME DOWN ON MOUNT SINAI, And SPOKE WITH THEM FROM HEAVEN; You gave them just ordinances and true laws, Good statutes and commandments

DID THIS TAKE PLACE IN HEAVEN OR ON EARTH?

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.


DID GOD EVER COME DOWN TO EARTH BEFORE ADAM?

Genesis 2: 7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul

WAS THIS DUST FROM THE GROUND IN HEAVEN?  OR WAS IT ON THE EARTH? IS THERE DUST IN HEAVEN?

8And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
21And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

WAS ADAM AND EVE CREATED IN HEAVEN OR ON THE EARTH?  WHO CREATED THEM?

Genesis 3: 8And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. 9And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 10And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself

Genesis 3:10 He said, "I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself."
Genesis 3:7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings.

So now that they had sinned….DID THIS SIN TAKE PLACE IN HEAVEN?  DID THEY HIDE FROM HIM IN HEAVEN? WAS HIS VOICE IN HEAVEN OR IN THE GARDEN?  WAS THE GARDEN IN HEAVEN OR ON EARTH?

Genesis 3:  21Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God MAKE COATS OF SKIN, AND CLOTHED THEM..."

DID GOD MAKE THESE ‘COATS’ OF SKIN IN HEAVEN? ON ON THE EARTH? BECAUSE IF HE MADE THEM IN HEAVEN, DOES THIS MEAN THAT ADAM AND EVE AND THE ANIMALS WERE IN HEAVEN?



Genesis 4: 9And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? 10And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. 11And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; 12When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. 13And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear. 14Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me. 15And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. 16And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

WAS CAIN IN HEAVEN OR ON EARTH?     CAN GOD’S VOICE BE HEARD IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH? WHERE WAS THE ‘PRESENCE OF THE LORD” WHEN THIS CONVERSATION TOOK PLACE?

DID GOD COME DOWN SINCE THE TIME OF CAIN AND MOSES?

E.G. WHEN PEOPLE WERE BUILDING THE TOWER OF BABEL?
Genesis 11:7 “Go to, LET US GO DOWN,   AND THERE CONFOUND THEIR LANGUAGE, that they may not understand one another's speech.”

DO YOU THINK THAT REALLY HAPPENED? OR DID HE JUST MAKE IT UP?

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE GOD WHO CREATED HEAVEN AND EARTH AND PUT MAN ON IT, IS CAPABLE OF COMING DOWN TO THE EARTH AND RESIDING WITH MEN?

DO YOU THINK THAT ACCORDING TO HIS WORD HE PLANS TO?
OR DO YOU JUST THINK IT IS A FANTASY THAT HE HAS NO INTENTION OR CAPACITY OF FULFILLING?


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## Mahalialee4 (May 29, 2010)

IS GOD ALLOWED TO LEAVE HEAVEN?  CAN THE HEAVENS CONTAIN HIM?

2 Chronicles 6:18 "But will God indeed dwell with mankind on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You; how much less this house which I have built.
1 Kings 8:27 "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You, how much less this house which I have built!
2 Chronicles: 2:6  “But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO BE HAPPENING ON AND IN THE NEW EARTH? 
Psalm 74:17 Thou hast set all the borders of the earth: thou hast made summer and winter.
Genesis 8:22 "While the earth remains, Seedtime and harvest, And cold and heat, And summer and winter, And day and night Shall not cease."
For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain
Psalm 37:11 But the humble will inherit the land And will delight themselves in abundant prosperity
Matthew 5: 5 “Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Psalm 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

WHAT ABOUT THIS MAN MADE TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM?  WHO IS GOING TO BUILD IT? OR IS IT A BUILDING AT ALL?

Micah 1:3 For behold, the LORD IS COMING FORTH FROM HIS PLACE. HE WILL COME DOWN AND TREAD ON THE HIGH PLACES OF THE EARTH
Zechariah 14:4  “And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south..

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
Ezekiel 37:27 "My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people.
Ezekiel 48:35 "The city shall be 18,000 cubits round about; and the name of the city from that day shall be, 'The LORD is there.'"

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

Revelation 21:3 “Behold, THE TABERNACLE OF GOD IS WITH MEN, and HE WILL DWELL WITH THEM,  and they shall be his people, and GOD HIMSELF SHALL BE WITH THEM,  and be their God
Revelation 7:15 "For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.
Revelation 21: 22And I SAW NO TEMPLE therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb ARE THE TEMPLE OF ITare the temple of it. 23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for THE GLORY OF THE LORD DID LIGHT ITt, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and THE KINGS OF THE EARTH do bring their glory and honour into it. 25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. 

NOW IF THE NEW JERUSALEM IS COMING DOWN TO THE EARTH OUT OF HEAVEN FROM GOD....
... IF HIS KINGS AND PRIESTS ARE RULING ON THE EARTH, AND BRINGING THEIR GLORY INTO THE TEMPLE, AND NATIONS ARE WALKING IN ITS LIGHT,   AND THEY ARE KEEPING THE SABBATHS.....AND HIS LAWS ....AND 'GOD HIMSELF' SHALL BE WITH THEM......DWELL WITH THEM....

IS THIS IN HEAVEN OR ON EARTH?


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## Mahalialee4 (May 29, 2010)

SOME INTERPRET THE SCRIPTURES FOR THEMSELVES...SOME ALLOW SOMEONE ELSE TO INTERPRET THEM FOR THEM..........AND SOME JUST BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURES AND ALLOW THE HOLY SPIRIT OF TRUTH TO LEAD THEM INTO ALL TRUTH...SOME JUST QUESTION EVERYTHING... BUT WILL NOT ALLOW HIM TO ANSWER...BY HIS SCRIPTURES OR BY HIS HOLY SPIRIT.  THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL NEVER CONTRADICT THE SCRIPTURES BECAUSE THE WORD IS FULL OF PRECEPTS TO ENABLE US TO COME TO AN ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE..IF WE HAVE A LOVE FOR   TRUTH....WE WILL SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES...AND STRING TOGETHER THE PEARLS OF TRUTH CONTAINED IN THEM AS THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH REVEALS THEM TO YOU.  No man or woman can do that for you. The kindest, most loving thing that they can do is TO REFER YOU BACK TO THE SCRIPTURES AND TO THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, AND TELL YOU TO SEARCH....SEARCH...THE SCRIPTURES.. "Let him that has ears,   HEAR    WHAT THE SPIRIT

 IS SAYING."   

Precepts:

Isaiah 2:3 “And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and LET US GO UP TO THE MOUNTAIN OF THE LORD,  TO THE HOUSE OF THE GOD OF JACOB, and HE WILL TEACH US OF HIS WAYS, AND WE WILL WALK IN HIS PATHS,  FOR OUT OF ZION SHALL GO FORTH THE LAW, AND THE WORD OF THE LORD FROM JERUSALEM.”
Matthew 13:43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN     ‘in the kingdom of their Father’.     He who has ears, let him hear.
Revelation 3:12 'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar IN THE TEMPLE OF MY GOD, and HE WILL NOT GO OUT FROM IT ANYMORE; and I will write on him the name of My God, and THE NAME OF THE CITY OF MY GOD, THE NEW JERUSALEM, which COMES DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN from My God, and My new name.

REMEMBER, REVELATION IS A BOOK OF PROPHECY…
Revelation 22: 16 “I Jesus have sent mine angel TO TESTIFY UNTO YOU THESE THINGS IN THE CHURCHES. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 
17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. 
18For I TESTIFY UNTO EVERY MAN THAT HEARETH THE WORDS OF THE PROPHECY OF THIS BOOK, IF ANY MAN shall ADD unto these things, GOD SHALL ADD UNTO HIM THE PLAGUES THT ARE WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK: 19And IF ANY MAN SHALL TAKE AWAY FROM THE WORDS OF THE BOOK OF THIS PROPHECY, God SHALL TAKE AWAY HIS PART OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE, AND OUT OF THE HOLY CITY, AND FROM THE THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK.
LET CHRIST SPEAK, LET HIM SAY WHO WE SHOULD BE LISTENING TO:
 Revelation 2:7 “He that hath an ear, LET HIM HEAR WHAT THE SPIRIT SAITH unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. 
Now THE SPIRIT IS NOT GOING TO TELL YOU ANYTHING DIFFERENT THAN WHAT CHRIST SAYS!
John 16:13 “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.”
Christ said: Matthew 11:15 "He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
John 4:23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Mark 4:23 "If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear."

NOW WHERE WAS JOHN, WHEN HE SAW THE VISION THAT WAS GIVEN IN SYMBOLS TO HIM?
DID THE THINGS THAT HE SAW OCCUR IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH?
WAS JOHN IN HEAVEN OR ON EARTH WHEN HE HAD THE VISIONS?
ARE THERE PRISONS IN HEAVEN?
WAS HE HAVING VISIONS ABOUT THE PAST OR THE FUTURE?
WHO SHOWED HIM THESE THINGS?
WAS IT INTENDED TO BE A MYSTERY OR A REVELATION...?

The REVELATION of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and SIGNIFIED IT BY HIS ANGEL   UNTO HIS SERVANT JOHN: 2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST, and of all things that he saw

Revelation 1: 9 “I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet


IF IT WAS THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST, SHOULD WE NOT   'HEAR HIM'?  JUST 'BELIEVE HIM'?

Can you imagine if you appeared in court and gave your testimony and then hundreds of people came behind you and interpreted your testimony and replaced it with their testimony and then said "This is what she meant to say!"?...unto YOU could no longer recognize YOUR TESTIMONY?


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## Mahalialee4 (May 29, 2010)

blazingthru said:


> Where does it say those that are in hell will be taken out and judged?
> 
> We have to do things in order - You have to remember you can't always read the chapters in groups you have to break them down (sometimes). The bible is design for research and study.  You have to first learn the character of God.. He is a loving God, He is faithful and truth.  This entire thing with Hell is not something he wants to do.  So if your thinking that people are burning in hell now as we speak, what do you think about the Character of God.  We serve a Just God. He would not have someone burning in Hell forever and his forever is not our forever its until the end of a thing.  Sodom and Gomorrah is an example of his forever, it burned until it was ashe.  thats it.  Satan encouraged us to think that those tales are true but they are not true. he is not burning in hell. He is walking around going here and there all over the earth seeing who he can devour( turn his way) that is what he is doing because he has only a little while and then he will come into his power. That is our tribulation getting through it.  But God promises to seal his people. Everything comes down to worship that is truly what this is all about.



Agreed.
The Bible DOES NOT TEACH that Satan is "in a burning hell" right now.  There is no one in a "burning hell" right now. Otherwise, we are calling the Scriptures a LIE! That is a MAN MADE DOCTRINE.


Yes. He is still walking about the earth seeking whom he can devour and deceive just as he was in the time of Job.


Job 1:6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. 7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? 9Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 10Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. 11But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. 12And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD. 


1 Peter 5:8 Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


Right now, HIS FULL TIME JOB IS DECEIVING MANKIND AND MAKING WAR ON THE SAINTS AND BLASPHEMING THE HEAVENLY FATHER AND CHRIST. He will continue his evil works UNTIL HE IS BOUND
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

When he is let loose at the end of 1000 he will try to start trouble all over again but he does not get very far. THIS IS WHEN HE IS DESTROYED FOREVER! THIS IS WHEN HE IS '''thrown'''' into THE LAKE OF FIRE.

Revelation 20:7 “And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. “

Revelation 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.


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## DDTexlaxed (May 29, 2010)

The Bible simply does not tell us exactly how long the tribulation is, but people will definitely live through it. Jesus tells us in Matthew 24:21,22 that the days will be shortened for the chosen ones for them to be saved alive, thus they live through the tribulation.  The tribulation times are likened to Noah's Day. Noah and his family  and also Lot and his 2 daughters who lived through their times of tribulation.  Matthew 24:37-39  2 Peter 2:5-9.
Revelation 7: 1-17 shows the 144,000 and a great crowd who come out of the tribulation. They live through it to be guided by God and his Lamb.
In Bible times, God has always saved his chosen ones while their enemies were destroyed. The tribulation movies show the righteous fighting against the anti christ and his enemies. God said that his servants will not need to do so. He will make His business to protect His worshipers. Ezekiel 38 & 39, the whole chapters, tells us that God's servants will be attacked and God will destroy all of those enemies.   Revelation 16:14 calls this Armageddon, the climax of the tribulation. The tribulation is something to look forward to because God's will will be done on earth as it is in heaven when the tribulation is finished.


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## Mahalialee4 (May 29, 2010)

Natchitoches said:


> IMHO, the obvious difficulty in preferring a private revelation of scripture as opposed to your denominational accepted translation is that, rather than having a magisterum of sorts to interpret according to wide acceptance (prayer, study, the Holy Spirit), there is an even greater chance of error in the individual interpretation.  We simply were not meant to walk this road alone.  Does that mean that I can't read the scriptures and understand them?  No, but it does mean that I am meant to comprehend them within a christian community of faith.  The precedent was given before Christ.  He didn't change that, but He fulfilled it. Just my .02



Who would 'prefer to be alone'?
If you understood the Word when you went to your meeting...and while you were at your meeting...would you still understand it when you went home? or would you lose your comprehension once you left the meeting?

In other words....Does Christ Change what He is saying from place to place, depending on where you are at the time? Does He say one thing in Church and then change His mind when you are at home?

Does He say that wherever there are 2 or 3 gathered in His Name...that He is in the midst of them?
Now does He leave you when you leave the gathering or is He with you always till the end of the days...like He says in His word?
Are you implying that it is 'wrong or unscriptural ' to pick up your Bible and study it at home....  That you must only do it in a group...? or is all right to do both... Do personal study and also fellowship?   Aren't we supposed to do both? One does not cancel out the other. Have you been taught that you 'cannot read the Bible and study it' or that you need 'supervision' when you open it, because you are incapable of understanding unless you are in a group at the time?  What if you just love the Word of God and love reading it? Do you think that God has a problem with that?  

Do you think that the Holy Spirit will only speak to you or guide you in a group? Do you not know that He desires that we are to be led by the Spirit at all times, if we are sons of God? Regarding the "Denominationally" - Accepted Translation....."...My greater concern is whether God accepts the translation. Denominations are divided on translations as well, so depending on whose translation you use.....or which denomination you belong to, it can get 'complicated'.

Are you assuming that people who open their Bible in private when they are at home, do not fellowship? Actually, His Word and Holy Spirit says the same thing to me, regardless of where I am at and when I am reading the Word. I try my best to follow Christ. Hebrews 13:8  "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."


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## Guitarhero (May 30, 2010)

Mahalialee4 said:


> Who would 'prefer to be alone'?
> If you understood the Word when you went to your meeting...and while you were at your meeting...would you still understand it when you went home? or would you lose your comprehension once you left the meeting?
> 
> In other words....Does Christ Change what He is saying from place to place, depending on where you are at the time? Does He say one thing in Church and then change His mind when you are at home?
> ...



Nope, and I didn't say so either.  My post is easy to understand.  I have no agendas.  Simply put, maybe some people should ask their pastors.


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## Guitarhero (May 30, 2010)

Mahalialee4 said:


> YOUR quote: Revelations is symbolic and ****the golden age is *****not one where there's going to be a total lack of evil, ******but will co-exist with the good,      ****as in now*****
> 
> .



Yeah, I believe I already provided the scriptures.  Christ is reigning right now, from heaven.  This is that time.  There exists evil alongside good and Satan is somewhat chained, thereby not being able to totally deceive mankind.  The ultimate solution to the world's woes will be Jesus' Second Coming.  The bible doesn't indicate a third.


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## Sharpened (May 30, 2010)

Natchitoches said:


> Nope, and I didn't say so either.  My post is easy to understand.  I have no agendas.  Simply put, maybe some people should ask their pastors.





> *Philippians 2:12* Why, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only,  but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear  and trembling.


The Holy Spirit is Our Guide and Comfort; is He not enough? For some, Jesus is their pastor and the example they follow. Is that not good enough? What are those surrounded by apostasy or living in the middle of nowhere supposed to do?


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## Mahalialee4 (May 31, 2010)

Natchitoches said:


> Yeah, I believe I already provided the scriptures.  Christ is reigning right now, from heaven.  This is that time.  There exists evil alongside good and Satan is somewhat chained, thereby not being able to totally deceive mankind.  The ultimate solution to the world's woes will be Jesus' Second Coming.  The bible doesn't indicate a third.



THE SUBJECT IS      'THE KINGDOM'    OF CHRIST!  Do not 'side step the issue' which you are contradicting.

Christ “triumphed and reigned” over Satan in the heavens long ago, when he rose from the grave....that is in the SCRIPTURES. That is without dispute.


 But Satan has been cast down to the earth. He is the “Prince of the power of the air”, According to Scripture. He is waging war on God’s people,..obviously the old heavens and the old earth have not passed away…and the Bible says the worst times in history are still coming…..tribulation and destruction: THAT IS IN THE SCRIPTURES. That is without dispute.

It is written:
2 Peter 3:1This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the HOLY PROPHETS, and of THE COMMANDMENTS OF US THE APOSTLES OF THE LORD AND SAVIOUR: 
3Knowing this first, that there shall come IN THE LAST DAYS SCOFFERS, walking after their own lusts, 4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7But the heavens and the earth, WHICH ARE NOW, by the same word are kept in store, RESERVED UNTO FIRE AGAINST THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT AND PERDITION OF UNGODLY MEN”. 
Your truth:   Nothing will change….“we are now LIVING in the GOLDEN AGE?” side by side with INCREASING evil …and imply ‘THIS TIME FRAME IS THE LONG AWAITED FULFILLMENT OF PROMISE’...THAT YOU CALL THE ‘GOLDEN AGE’…which is implying that YOU DO NOT believe a literal kingdom, a government,  filled with RIGHTEOUSNESS,  is going to occur  or  that there is going to be a new heaven and a new earth and that the ‘144,000’ will reign with him on the earth. Your truth nullifies the fulfillment of the prophecies of the prophets, and Christ himself about His kingdom and government..
Bible Truth: The Scriptures do not talk about ‘any GOLDEN AGE’. It speaks of  a Kingdom, government , a thousand year reign on a new earth filled with RIGHTEOUSNESS, NOT FILLED WITH A MIXTURE OF GOOD AND EVIL, NOT even containing UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. 

God’s reality: There is going to be a LITERAL FULFILLMENT to the PROPHECIES. A RIGHTEOUS GOVERNMENT AND KINGDOM........RULED BY CHRIST....AND THE FULFILLMENT WILL TAKE PLACE ON THE EARTH.....'this is the EVERLASTING GOOD NEWS OF     .....'THE KINGDOM'...THAT GOVERNMENT! prophesied in the Gospel of the CHRIST IN THE SCRIPTURES BY CHRIST, AS THE FULFILLMENT OF WHAT HE CAME TO DO! TO BREAK UP ...DESTROY.....THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL!!!!

1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. FOR THIS PURPOSE THE SON OF GOD WAS MANIFESTED,   THAT HE MIGHT DESTROY THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL."


Paul preached the GOSPEL OF CHRIST.  Now if YOU have a ‘different TRUTH’ a ‘different REALITY’ a  ‘different KINGDOM’, ‘INTERESTINGLY’ called the ‘GOLDEN AGE’…a  ‘different gospel'  than what Paul preached…  A DIFFERENT GOSPEL THAT promotes  HOPE AND BELIEF in A CORRUPT GOVERNMENT AND EARTH FILLED WITH GOOD AND EVIL..,  and claim that this corruption WILL BE HEADED BY CHRIST and say that  this ‘counterfeit golden age’   is the FULFILLMENT…THIS DOES NOT  COME FROM THE WORDS OF THE PROPHETS, APOSTLES AND CHRIST…..

You really need to ask yourself some serious questions: 

‘WHICH CHRIST” are YOU talking about? ‘Which GOSPEL? Which THOUSAND YEARS?  The one taught by MAN THAT CONTRADICTS THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST AND SCOFFS AGAINST HIS PROMISES?    WHO ARE YOU FOLLOWING?

1 Corinthinans: 8: 5 “For though there be that are called gods, whether IN HEAVEN or in EARTH  (as there be GODS MANY, and LORDS MANY)”

Some MAY claim to rule HIGHER than the Father in heaven,  have the power to CHANGE HIS WORD,  CHANGE SCRIPTURE, HAVE AUTHORITY OVER HEAVEN, EARTH AND HELL…..showing the world that they are a “god”, putting their throne above that of the Father…ruling in the place of Christ….REPLACING CHRIST…claiming the full AUTHORITY OF CHRIST…   QUESTION: so if CHRIST is ALIVE…and RULING ….why would any PROFESSED 'CHRISTIAN MAN' NEED TO FILL IN FOR CHRIST, CLAIMING TO BE 'CHRIST ON EARTH' AND PARADING AROUND LIKE GOD?....that is 'anti Christ' meaning in the place of, instead of..... The Scriptures prophesied, JESUS PROPHESIED….’MANY SHALL COME IN MY NAME…SAYING…”I AM THE CHRIST’  AND SHALL DECEIVE MANY…." That Scripture is among the many you may have overlooked.

Paul GAVE SEVERAL DIRE WARNINGS ABOUT REJECTING THE DOCTRINE AND GOSPEL OF CHRIST:

Galatians 1: 6 “I marvel that YE ARE SO SOON REMOVED FROM HIM that called you into THE GRACE OF CHRIST ...unto ANOTHER GOSPEL: 7Which is not another; but there be SOME THAT TROUBLE YOU, and would PERVERT  the GOSPEL OF CHRIST. 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, PREACH ANY OTHER GOSPEL unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9As we said before, so say I now again, If ANY MAN PREACH ANY OTHER GOSPEL UNTO YOU than that ye have received, let him be accursed”

.
THIS Scripture is also being fulfilled!

2 Thessalonians  2:1 1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, AS THAT THE DAY OF THE LORD IS AT HAND. 3  LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU BY ANY MEANS:


FOR THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME,  EXCEPT THERE COME A FALLING AWAY FIRST,   AND THAT MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED,   THE SON OF PERDITION;    4 WHO OPPOSETH, AND EXALTETH HIMSELF  ABOVE ALL THAT IS CALLED GOD, OR THAT IS WORSHIPPED, SO THAT HE AS GOD SITTETH IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD, SHEWING HIMSELF THAT HE IS GOD. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that HE MIGHT BE REVEALED IN HIS TIME. 7For THE MYSTERY OF INIQUITY doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked BE REVEALED, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall DESTROY WITH THE BRIGHTNESS OF HIS COMING: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And WITH ALL DECEIVABLENESS OF UNRIGHTEOUSNESS IN THEM THAT PERISH; because THEY   RECEIVED NOT  THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH,  THAT THEY    MIGHT BE SAVED. 11And FOR THIS CAUSE     GOD SHALL SEND THEM STRONG DELUSION,    THAT THEY SHOULD BELIEVE A LIE: 12That they all might be damned who BELIEVED NOT THE TRUTH, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Your implying that a ‘Third coming’ has been suggested is 'unwarranted.' Now you can slip and slide around all the Scriptures, ignore the precepts and the prophecies and come to your own conclusions…but the Scriptures are clear….ANY ONE WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE    THE TRUTH OF THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST will be turned over to a ‘DELUSION’…AND BELIEVE A LIE.., because There are TWO CHOICES.  The Gospel of Christ…or  ‘another gospel’... WHICH IS NOT A ANOTHER ... BUT  IS A  ‘a PERVERTED GOSPLELl’...that is without dispute.


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## Guitarhero (May 31, 2010)

Mahalialee4 said:


> THE SUBJECT IS      'THE KINGDOM'    OF CHRIST!  Do not 'side step the issue' which you are contradicting.
> 
> .




I don't know about you but I surely know about me.  Nobody in my skin is side-stepping the OP's topic which is, "are christians supposed to go through the tribuation."  Several here believe they will.  I am one of them.  Because YOU do not believe what I wrote - which, by the way, was very respectful of race and creed of anyone on earth - does not give you the right to call anybody deceived.  You simply have a different perspective, which is your God-given right.  I provided scriptures and an interpretation which I believe answered OP's question from this end.  It's still an open question.  Everyone in this thread has done the same as me, giving their opinion based upon what they were taught, backed up by scripture albeit,  minus hits and jabs.


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## Guitarhero (May 31, 2010)

Nymphe said:


> The Holy Spirit is Our Guide and Comfort; is He not enough? For some, Jesus is their pastor and the example they follow. Is that not good enough? What are those surrounded by apostasy or living in the middle of nowhere supposed to do?




I never said that He wasn't.  What I suggested, and maybe my post should be reread within it's proper context, is that individual interpretations have been wrong.  Pastoral interpretations have also been wrong.  Church interpretations have been wrong.  We rely upon the Holy Spirit for guidance but the precedence before Christ and throughout His walk on earth has been through a teaching system within the religious community that is guided as a whole by the Holy Spirit.  That for matters as theologically difficult as Revelations, perhaps people ought ask their leadership they follow for the "proper" interpretation.


And just to add to the clarification of what I mean, take this thread, for example.  A question was posed as to whether we'll go through the tribulation time.  Many opinions of post-millenialism, amillenialism and pre-millenialism have been given.  All have provided scripture for what they believe it to be saying.  Opinions are differing.  That's individual interpretation right here on the site.  But I say, what does your church specifically tell you?  That's group effort to understand and take a stance on the subject.  They've come to terms on what they believe is truth and all under that should abide by it.  If people do not worship in a specific church, then, what does their worship group think and come to consensus about it?   In other words, any opinions can be refuted because it's not the same as, say, the Ten Commandments.  Even we had to come to some kind of consensus about those in the past.


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## Sharpened (May 31, 2010)

Natchitoches said:


> I never said that He wasn't.  What I suggested, and maybe my post should be reread within it's proper context, is that individual interpretations have been wrong.  Pastoral interpretations have also been wrong.  Church interpretations have been wrong.  We rely upon the Holy Spirit for guidance but the precedence before Christ and throughout His walk on earth has been through a teaching system within the religious community that is guided as a whole by the Holy Spirit.  That for matters as theologically difficult as Revelations, perhaps people ought ask their leadership they follow for the "proper" interpretation.
> 
> 
> And just to add to the clarification of what I mean, take this thread, for example.  A question was posed as to whether we'll go through the tribulation time.  Many opinions of post-millenialism, amillenialism and pre-millenialism have been given.  All have provided scripture for what they believe it to be saying.  Opinions are differing.  That's individual interpretation right here on the site.  But I say, what does your church specifically tell you?  That's group effort to understand and take a stance on the subject.  They've come to terms on what they believe is truth and all under that should abide by it.  If people do not worship in a specific church, then, what does their worship group think and come to consensus about it?   In other words, any opinions can be refuted because it's not the same as, say, the Ten Commandments.  Even we had to come to some kind of consensus about those in the past.


    Group think?  I understand perfectly what you are saying, but what can one do when surrounded by errors unseen or ignored by believers at large? Can you understand those who want the Pure Water of His Word and the Unleavened Bread of His Knowledge straight from Him? Why are you having trouble processing this reality? Does it scare you or something?

  As for this topic, the key is the last trump and the seventh trumpet being one in the same. Also, Jesus did warn us that we would be persecuted in His name. See John 15:20, Romans 8:35, 2 Timothy 3:12.

Trust nothing of what any man or group says. Don’t even trust your own mind. Ask the Father always.


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## aribell (May 31, 2010)

If we put ourselves in the shoes of any follower of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, from Noah to John exiled on the Island of Patmos, interpretation of God's revelation was given to specific leaders and learning, hearing, and understanding was a community event.  We have personal bibles today because technology makes such possible.  But the image of a person sticking Scripture in their back pocket and going home to understand "for themselves" what it meant really isn't the biblical picture.  With the exception of the Fathers, Apostles and Prophets, understanding God's revelation has _always_ (Scripturally speaking) been a community affair.

We have gifts in the Body of Christ, which Paul says are given for the growth and edification of the Body, till we come to complete knowledge.  These are apostles, prophets, teachers, etc.  These positions are found and fulfilled in the _community_ of believers.  God didn't promise full knowledge and revelation to any particular Christian--He promised it to the Church.  We as a whole have to come to understand these things together.  When we come together, God's Spirit will work through the gifts and callings of the leaders and ministers of the Church to lead us to all truth.  John does say in 1 John 2 that "you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you...you will abide in him."  So John says that we do have an anointing from the Spirit that enables us to know the truth--but he was not speaking to an individual person, but to a church community, to whom the letter was addressed.

Notice, I have nothing to say about the original topic as my understanding of Scripture is that there is no "left behind" type Rapture.  However, I do not believe these issues are for us to figure out on our own.  As Peter clearly says, "No Scripture is of private interpretation."  There is great benefit to reading the Word regularly on one's own, meditating on it, etc.  However pouring over God's commands, the biblical stories, etc. for encouragement, guidance and instruction in one's Christian walk is different than coming to _doctrinal_ conclusions based upon one's interpretation of Scripture.

Doctrine is for the Body of Christ to sort out in community.  We all have questions and so long as we're reading our Bibles will have many more.  But where the Body has not in unity spoken definitively on a doctrinal question, we cannot announce a definite conclusion on our own.  I know that this grates against our present Christian culture, but my point is only that with such things, we should keep asking the questions, talk about it, and then as was stated above, take it back into our Chrisitian communities.  I personally believe that the "doctrinal confusion" in the church(es) is a consequence of our refusal to have patience with the process of leaning upon one another to gain understanding, and waiting till there is unity.  As soon as one person sees something differently, a finger is pointed at everyone else.  But I digress...That was a tangential post...but it was my only response after reading.


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## Mahalialee4 (May 31, 2010)

Natchitoches said:


> I don't know about you but I surely know about me.  Nobody in my skin is side-stepping the OP's topic which is, "are christians supposed to go through the tribuation."  Several here believe they will.  I am one of them.  Because YOU do not believe what I wrote - which, by the way, was very respectful of race and creed of anyone on earth - does not give you the right to call anybody deceived.  You simply have a different perspective, which is your God-given right.  I provided scriptures and an interpretation which I believe answered OP's question from this end.  It's still an open question.  Everyone in this thread has done the same as me, giving their opinion based upon what they were taught, backed up by scripture albeit,  minus hits and jabs.



I always respond with questions or Scripture on topics: I am not required to believe you on the matter. Nor are you required to believe me.  That is why the Scriptures are posted in response to statements involving Doctrine.

THIS quote of yours(as you already know, is what I am addressing.) This is what you side stepped in your reply.


“REVELATIONS is symbolic and “”””””””THE GOLDEN AGE”””””””   IS NOT ONE WHERE THERE’S GOING TO BE A TOTAL LACK OF EVIL, BUT WILL COEXIST WITH THE GOOD, AS IS NOW. Christ's Church ALREADY RULES, BUT FROM HEAVEN, There will be a day when the believers are gathered together, rapture, but not until the Second Coming. There are not three according to what I was taught, based upon scriptures. And the following DO NOT INDICATE THAT CHRIST WAS ON THE EARTH DURING THIS REIGN. Rather, IT IS IN HEAVEN.”




Your ‘PERSONAL private interpretation’ that there would ‘NOT BE’ A TOTAL LACK OF EVIL in the coming thousand year REIGN OF CHRIST WHEN THE FATHER’S WILL IS DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN….Revelation is symbolic’…EVIL WILL COEXIST with the GOOD, AS IS NOW”  And I say the ‘Scriptures’ do not tell you that…and I took Scriptural issue with what you said.   Neither do they say that there will be a ‘third coming’, so no need to reply to that “implication”.



The crux of the matter is
Will it be A ‘KINGDOM WHERE RIGHTEOUSNESS WILL DWELL, or will it be a MIXTURE OF EVIL AND GOOD…AS IT IS NOW….meaning ‘no change’ or not?
Those are the Scriptures I posted, and let the Scriptures say for themselves.

THAT is what you stepped your foot into…THAT I AM REFERRING TO and now you want to dash back to “Oh I was ONLY speaking re: ‘whether Christians would go through the Great Tribulation…and responding to the OP original post.. What you said about the “golden age”, and “the reign of Christ” and what you said about that “reign” is what I am taking issue with.



The Original Poster’s Quote:  Did not bring up anything to ask or question or suggest the things that you were stating and apparently believe. How does your statement ((((that I am referring to)))…find its root in this original post?

Original Person's Post:  Taken from the Top: 



"Ladies, I am so confused . 

All my life I've learned that the rapture will come, take all of us away and then the GREAT TRIBULATION. After 7 years, and after the 7 plagues, we will then come back with Jesus for the final battle.

Now I am hearing from certain preachers that the rapture will take place after the tribulation - and anything else is a lie. We as Christians are to go through the "struggle" and come out stronger - right when everyone turns on us, Jesus will appear.

I'm not sure this makes sense 

I've read Revelations - and watched topics about Armageddon etc. on the History channel, and I can't see God putting us through THAT (GREAT TRIBULATION) . But then I think, during the mass exodus the Egyptians went through similar plagues, but the Israelites were spared. I believe this proved to Pharaoh and the idol worshippers that God is real, and the protector of His people - would He show the world this again by letting us live through THE TRIBULATION?

Is there any hope for those Christians who were left behind, to go back with Jesus after THE TRIBULATION?"


YES. SHE DEFINITELY POSTED ON THE GREAT TRIBULATION.

In my response to her:
I personally posted Scriptures on the Kingdom and the reign of Christ and the thousand years ALLOWING THE SCRIPTURES TO STATE WHAT IT WOULD BE LIKE DURING THAT TIME.

You interjected  at some point and made a STATEMENT:
““”””””””THE GOLDEN AGE”””””””   IS NOT ONE WHERE THERE’S GOING TO BE A TOTAL LACK OF EVIL, BUT WILL COEXIST WITH THE GOOD, AS IS NOW. Christ's Church ALREADY RULES, BUT FROM HEAVEN….

You also referring to someone else’s post and stated: 
“And the following DO NOT INDICATE “THAT CHRIST WAS ON THE EARTH DURING THIS REIGN. Rather, IT IS IN HEAVEN”

AGAIN YOU WERE ‘PINPOINTING THE REIGN OF CHRIST’…AND QUESTIONING WHERE CHRIST WOULD BE DURING THIS REIGN…STATING ‘WHAT YOU THOUGHT OR DID NOT THINK ABOUT IT.

So yes. You went THERE. Speaking of the ‘reign of Christ and what you THOUGHT ABOUT IT. I believe that Christ can speak for himself so I posted what He and the Word had to say in different Scriptures giving a broad view of Scripture. No one else was giving great emphasis to the Kingdom rule of 1000 years and citing a multitude of Scriptural descriptions, except me.

I did not give my opinion, OR SAY ‘this is what I was taught”, or ‘this is MY INTERPRETATION” … I ask questions and post the Scriptures.  

Whether I agree or disagree, I post the Scriptures. If something is STATED that DISAGREES WITH THE SCRIPTURES, I POST MORE SCRIPTURES. Here is my reason for doing so: When the direct quote from the Word is posted in full view, there in front of those reading it…..the person reading it will either end up  doing their own interpretation of it or just accept it. And if they are offended by the direct quote from the Scripture, their problem is really with the Scriptures. Do not hurry in your spirit to be offended because YOUR statement was challenged by Posted Scriptures. You constantly challenge, often without any Scripture and with JMO's. I am sure you are already aware of that. And I stand on the Word that it warns about being deceived if we do not love Truth?  Why did you apply that Sripture to yourself to become offended by the Scripture?

Isaiah 55: 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11SO SHALL MY WORD BE that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing hereto I sent it. “ 
Hebrews 4:12 “ For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.”

Jeremiah 23: 29  IS NOT MY WORD LIKE A FIRE? saith the LORD; and LIKE A HAMMER that breaketh the rock in pieces? 30

 DOES IT HAVE POWER WHEN SPOKEN?
Jeremiah 5:14 Therefore, thus says the LORD, the God of hosts, "Because you have spoken this word, Behold, I AM MAKING MY WORDS IN YOUR MOUTH FIRE, And this people wood, and it will consume them.
2 Corinthians 10:5 We are DESTROYING SPECULATIONS and EVERY LOFTY THING RAISED UP AGAINST THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD, and WE ARE TAKING EVERY THOUGHT CAPTIVE TO THE OBEDIENCE OF CHRIST.”

This is why, I do not SAY WHAT I THINK THE SCRIPTURE IS SAYING, I just post the Scriptures,   and LET THOSE  WORDS SPEAK AND GO FORTH   AND DO WHAT THE WORD OF GOD SAYS THAT THE WORD WILL DO…..ALL BY ITSELF…..


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## Mahalialee4 (May 31, 2010)

nicola.kirwan said:


> If we put ourselves in the shoes of any follower of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, from Noah to John exiled on the Island of Patmos, interpretation of God's revelation was given to specific leaders and learning, hearing, and understanding was a community event.  We have personal bibles today because technology makes such possible.  But the image of a person sticking Scripture in their back pocket and going home to understand "for themselves" what it meant really isn't the biblical picture.  With the exception of the Fathers, Apostles and Prophets, understanding God's revelation has _always_ (Scripturally speaking) been a community affair.
> 
> We have gifts in the Body of Christ, which Paul says are given for the growth and edification of the Body, till we come to complete knowledge.  These are apostles, prophets, teachers, etc.  These positions are found and fulfilled in the _community_ of believers.  God didn't promise full knowledge and revelation to any particular Christian--He promised it to the Church.  We as a whole have to come to understand these things together.  When we come together, God's Spirit will work through the gifts and callings of the leaders and ministers of the Church to lead us to all truth.  John does say in 1 John 2 that "you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you...you will abide in him."  So John says that we do have an anointing from the Spirit that enables us to know the truth--but he was not speaking to an individual person, but to a church community, to whom the letter was addressed.
> 
> ...



This is my reference:
Here is where I am coming from:

1.	Christ already laid out the Doctrine. So did the Apostles. That is the Foundation of our beliefs. And their Foundation was based on Christ and His Teachings and His Doctrine. 

1 Corinthians 3:11 “For NO MAN CAN LAY A FOUNDATION OTHER THAN THE ONE WHICH IS LAID, WHICH IS JESUS CHRIST.”


Ephesians 3:5 “WHICH IN OTHER GENERATIONS WAS NOT MADE KNOW TO THE SONS OF MEN,   AS IT HAS NOW BEEN REVEALED TO HIS HOLY APOSTLES AND PROPHETS IN THE SPIRIT;”

Ephesians 2: 18” For through HIM we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon THE FOUNDATION OF THE APOSTLES AND PROPHETS,   JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF BEING THE CHIEF CORNER STONE; 21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Meeting in groups is not the problem and THEY are not the undisputed solution, especially if they are walking and believing in error:

My concern is when ‘Man’ and ‘groups’ continue 'to justify coming up with and needing more than this FOUNDATION that was already laid. NEEDING TO GO BEYOND AND AROUND THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST and forming their own consensus IN SPITE OF WHAT THE SCRIPTURES SAY...IS THE PROBLEM. The Solution is ‘sticking to the Doctrine of Christ’.

The Israelites in the wilderness were in a group. The nation of Israel was in a group.
The ‘body of Christ is scattered all over the world, meeting in ‘groups’ and ‘existing divided’ in ‘doctrine’ and ‘teaching’ setting this example for the world, .’ Local churches are divided. People have there own interpretations and cannot agree. Just like this assembly in the book of Acts…

Acts 19:32Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly was confused; and the more part knew not wherefore they were come together’

Can it be possible that when a group gets together and FORMS A GROUP 'INTERPRETATION' OF WHAT HE SAID instead of 'accepting' what is written, or end up trying to make what Christ and the Apostles said "squeeze and fit into their 'particular sway and slant".. and after much ‘struggle’ they MOVE FROM THEIR INTERPRETATION TO FORM A CONSENSUS that they can be DEAD WRONG? ..Judging by the DOCTRINAL CONFLICTS IN WHAT PROFESSES TO BE THE BODY OF CHRIST AND THE CHURCH WHERE WE NOW HAVE A  MULTITUDE OF  'GROUP PRIVATE INTERPRETATIONS', there is a BIG PROBLEM.   The world is laughing at Christians, for this very thing. 
It has been said to me by those 'in the world': "Christians say they are following Christ...and that He is the head, that they are His body....look how many different kinds of heads they have, on that same body, speaking different things out of different mouths.....on the same thing...they are the most 'divided bunch on the face of the earth..."

The Israelites had A GROUP CONSENSUS IN THE WILDERNESS.  They were the “Church in the wilderness”. Remember the repercussions.

Numbers 20:4 “And why have ye brought up the congregation of the LORD into this wilderness, that we and our cattle should die there?
Acts 7: 38  “This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:”
Nehemiah 9: 16But they and our fathers dealt proudly, and hardened their necks, and HEARKENED NOT TO THY COMMANDMENTS, 17And REFUSED TO OBEY, neither were mindful of thy wonders that thou didst among them; but hardened their necks, and IN THEIR REBELLION APPOINTED A CAPTAIN TO RETURN TO THEIR BONDAGE: but thou art a God ready to pardon, gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and forsookest them not. 18Yea, when they had MADE THEM A MOLTEN CALF , and said, THIS IS THY GOD that brought thee up out of Egypt, and had wrought great provocations; 
Exodus 32:1And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, THE PEOPLE GATHERED THEMSELVES TOGETHER UNTO AARON, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; ((((for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we know not what is become of him.))))……Note: the people blamed MOSES for their sin      2And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me. 3And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron. 4And he received them at their hand, and FASHIONED IT WITH A GRAVING TOOL, , AFTER HE HAD MADE IT INTO A MOLTEN CALF: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. 5And WHEN ARON SAW IT, HE BUILT AN ALTAR BEFORE IT; and AARON MADE PROCLAMATION  and said, “TOMORROW IS A FEAST TO THE LORD” 6And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play............2121And Moses said unto Aaron, What did this people unto thee, THAT THOU  HAS BROUGHT SO GREAT A SIN UPON THEM     22And Aaron said, Let not the anger of my lord wax hot: thou knowest the people, that they are set on mischief. 23For they said unto me, Make us gods, which shall go before us: for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we know not what is become of him. 24And I said unto them, Whosoever hath any gold, let them break it off. So they gave it me: then I cast it into the fire, and there came out this calf."


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## Mahalialee4 (May 31, 2010)

Yes. Some would say that 'Aaron passed the buck'. Paraphrase {"Don’t get angry Moses. You know how these people are!  Set on ‘mischief!”…THEY TOLD ME TO DO IT…they gave me the gold…I threw it in the fire…..out came this calf!}...some would say that 'they overran the Priest or Pastor' or that 'he was weak'  IN ANY CASE, THEY WERE NOT FOLLOWING GOD OR MOSES.....so much for THAT GROUP CONSENSUS, and the leadership example...in that situation."  Is it always the case....NO. BUT TOO OFTEN IT IS.

Now today, in any group....who is really leading that particular Church?  Christ, the Clergy or the people? Is it Theocracy? (God rule),    Democracy....people rule...Anarchy....?



The body of Christ is NOT A DEMOCRACY. Giving a person or a group a ‘special’ name or ‘Title’ does not give an ‘authority’ above that of Christ’ nor the ‘consensus’ authority over the Doctrine of Christ.

NOW UNLESS WE READ  AND KNOW and BELIEVE WHAT CHRIST SAID….we can be deceived and led astray. If we do not know what He said, or do not understand what we read, or just adapt a 'group consensus...an "I am not personally responsible" attitude....we are very vulnerable to a multitude of ‘private interpretations’ WHETHER IN PRIVATE OR IN GROUPS. We will not be spared answering to Him just because we are in a group AND THE GROUP ENDS UP GETTING JUDGED. I think of this Scripture:

Revelation 18:4   "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, MY PEOPLE, that ye be not PARTAKERS OF HER SINS, AND THAT YE RECEIVE NOT OF HER PLAGUES. 5For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities"

I find that very SOBERING.



2  John 1: 8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that THE HEAD OF EVERY MAN IS CHRIST; and the head of the woman is the man; and THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD. 

(Pastors Priests and Teachers and Prophets are Not excluded from this) .They are not THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH OR THE BODY ANYWHERE)
Colossians 1:18 “And HE is the head of THE BODY, THE CHURCH: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that IN ALL THINGS HE MIGHT HAVE THE PREEIMINENCE.”

Matthew 23: 8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.



.
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Ephesians 1:22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,


1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time
1 Corinthians 1:10Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that YE ALL SPEAK THE SAME THING, and THAT THERE BE NO DIVISIONS AMONG YOU; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are CONTENTIONS among you. 12Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I AM OF Paul; and I OF Apollos; and I OF Cephas; and I OF Christ. 13  IS CHRIST DIVIDED? ..WAS PAUL CRUCIFIED FOR YOU? …OR WERE YOU BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF PAUL? 14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17 FOR CHRIST SENT ME NOT TO BAPTIZE, BUT TO PREACH THE GOSPEL:  NOT WITH WISDOM OF WORDS, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 
Hebrews 8:11Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an HIGH PRIEST,   WHO IS SET ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE THRONE OF MAJESTY IN THE HEAVENS; 2 A MINISTER OF THE SANCTUARY, AND OF THE TRUE TABERNACLE, WHICH THE LORD PITCHED, AND NOT MAN. 3For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. 4For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: 5Who serve UNTO THE EXAMPLE AND SHADOW OF HEAVENLY THINGS, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. 6But now hath HE HATH OBTAINED A MORE EXCELLENT MINISTRY,  BY HOW MUCH ALSO HE IS THE MEDIATOR OF A BETTER COVENANT, WHICH WAS ESTABLISHED UPON BETTER PROMISES.

Colossians 2:1For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh; 2That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; 3In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. 5For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. 6As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Ephesians 4:15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him WHO IS THE HEAD, EVEN CHRIST..”


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## Mahalialee4 (May 31, 2010)

It doesn't get any better than this Church.



Hebrews 12: 22  "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY AND CHURCH OF THE FIRSTBORN, WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN HEAVEN, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. "


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## Mamita (May 31, 2010)

ok i admit i didn't read everything, but i just had answer to that question i was wondering about myself this morning

here's the link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TX66PmlkYoc

in a nutshell yeah we will go through it


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## Guitarhero (May 31, 2010)

Nymphe said:


> The Holy Spirit is Our Guide and Comfort; is He not enough? For some, Jesus is their pastor and the example they follow. Is that not good enough? What are those surrounded by apostasy or living in the middle of nowhere supposed to do?




I agree about the Holy Spirit, Nymphe.  However, how are any of us exactly sure that we are not being misguided, deceived or emotionally manipulated by our own psyches regarding what is considered truth from the Holy Spirit and that which is not?  Faith is a big part of that, as well as scripture and in our case, divine tradition and the writings under the direction and lead of the Holy Spirit.  Some might say the latter is wrong.  Some might say that it is necessary in order for the former to be known as the true interpretation.  This is what I'm getting at.  And there are people who will look at both means of interpretation and determine it all untrue.  There are those who go by popular opinion of it and others who go by either feeling, total private revelation etc.  But how much of private revelation is subjective?  Unless it's agreed upon by some kind of consensus within the body of Christ, how will I know for sure that this particular interpretation is the truth according to the leading of the Holy Spirit?

So, if something as "scary" as Revelations is so troubling and a person desires to learn of it, my advice was to seek out where one worshipped, either traditonal church or worship group etc.  It can cause great distress to many people and I've witnessed this all throughout the years.  I'm not saying that God cannot impress upon me what is truth.  But I am saying that sometimes what I had considered His impression later turned out not to be.


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## Guitarhero (May 31, 2010)

Nymphe said:


> Group think?  I understand perfectly what you are saying, but what can one do when surrounded by errors unseen or ignored by believers at large? Can you understand those who want the Pure Water of His Word and the Unleavened Bread of His Knowledge straight from Him? Why are you having trouble processing this reality? Does it scare you or something?
> 
> As for this topic, the key is the last trump and the seventh trumpet being one in the same. Also, Jesus did warn us that we would be persecuted in His name. See John 15:20, Romans 8:35, 2 Timothy 3:12.
> 
> Trust nothing of what any man or group says. Don’t even trust your own mind. Ask the Father always.




Apostles = group think.  Guided by the Holy Spirit to even write the scriptures.   They did so prayerfully.   Jesus worshipped alongside others in the synagogue.   This is to say that gathering of the faithful is not wrong.  Ignoring the Divine is wrong and failing to worship Him, yes.  Some choose solitude for that.  If I am one-man strong in a battle though, I am only one-man strong.  I have no strategist other than myself on how to win the battle.  However, if I am surrounded by other believers in a battle, I am more than one-man strong and through one concerted effort, we fight in unison.  I worship in church every weekly mass and holy days of obligation because that is what my church teaches me and if I am to be a part of it, I abide in that.  Others will worship in group homes in their type of congregating.  Still, others go solo.  It's not wrong to worship, pray nor study together.  It's very much encouraged.  Can every person accomplish this?  Absolutely not.  There are some people who are seriously persecuted for their faith and belief and would face death so they do so, just them.   I personally follow what I have been taught for my side.  That's all that's being said.  There's no reading in between the lines, actually.  Most worship in a group and is the norm. However, I'm not claiming superiority.  It's just how I fit best.


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## Guitarhero (May 31, 2010)

Mahalialee4 said:


> I always respond with questions or Scripture on topics: *I am not required to believe you on the matter. Nor are you required to believe me*.  That is why the Scriptures are posted in response to statements involving Doctrine.
> 
> .



This has already been established.  Shrug.  Why it's necessary to reiterate, I don't know.  I don't beat folks on the heads with bibles.  I ran from that group long, long ago because I was receiving the blows.  Believe me, I was not saying you SHOULD believe what I believe.  I simply don't care to proselytize.


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## taytay86 (Sep 6, 2011)

Hi Ladies - I hope that you are all here to answer my question as this was orignally posted over one year ago. Most (including myself) believe the mark of the beast will be the microchip implantation in humans. Now, if the rapture is to happen AFTER the tribulation has already started then what will Christians do? If we are not allowed to buy or sell without the chip, how will we survive? How will our children survive? I watched a lecture where this woman said that even if someone with the chip buys stuff for us without the chip, it will be traced. Meaning then if we are in hiding, they will find us. This is all scary and has me confused. I have this heavy feeling in my heart that the tribulation will be like the Holocaust. If we refuse the chip, we are tortured to death. Why wouldn't God take his humble servants before all of the tribulation?


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Sep 6, 2011)

Amazing Perry Stone of Manna Fest is doing a teaching on this now


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## Sharpened (Sep 7, 2011)

taytay86 said:


> Hi Ladies - I hope that you are all here to answer my question as this was orignally posted over one year ago. Most (including myself) believe the mark of the beast will be the microchip implantation in humans. Now, if the rapture is to happen AFTER the tribulation has already started then what will Christians do? If we are not allowed to buy or sell without the chip, how will we survive? How will our children survive? I watched a lecture where this woman said that even if someone with the chip buys stuff for us without the chip, it will be traced. Meaning then if we are in hiding, they will find us. This is all scary and has me confused. I have this heavy feeling in my heart that the tribulation will be like the Holocaust. If we refuse the chip, we are tortured to death. Why wouldn't God take his humble servants before all of the tribulation?


I am too tired to give a detailed answer right now, but it will be like Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Numbers and Joshua combined with the Book of Acts. 

Joshua and Caleb were righteous and had to suffer along with the rest of Israel. How many of the Apostles were martyred? Why should we be spared when, at this moment, our brothers and sisters in Christ around the world are being tortured and killed for their faith?



> *Matthew 10:39* - He that finds his life shall lose it: and he that loses his life for my sake shall find it.
> 
> *Matthew 16:25* - For whoever will save his life shall lose it: and whoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
> 
> ...


Seven times this phrase is repeated for His New Testament, which means (at least for me) "Pay close attention to this!" Jesus told us not to worry about provisions (Matthew 6:25-34, Luke 12:22-33). It took Him a month or two of beating this fact into my head until I got it. I have stopped worrying about it and watch Him do His thing. All glory to Him, always.


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## blazingthru (Sep 7, 2011)

taytay86 said:


> Hi Ladies - I hope that you are all here to answer my question as this was orignally posted over one year ago. Most (including myself) believe the mark of the beast will be the microchip implantation in humans. Now, if the rapture is to happen AFTER the tribulation has already started then what will Christians do? If we are not allowed to buy or sell without the chip, how will we survive? How will our children survive? I watched a lecture where this woman said that even if someone with the chip buys stuff for us without the chip, it will be traced. Meaning then if we are in hiding, they will find us. This is all scary and has me confused. I have this heavy feeling in my heart that the tribulation will be like the Holocaust. If we refuse the chip, we are tortured to death. Why wouldn't God take his humble servants before all of the tribulation?


 
Taytay86, 
I honestly don't believe that a chip has anything to do with it at all.  This is the thing that many Christians do not get, No one is willing to suffer and die just to do it. But for Christ you must be willing to suffer and Die. Whatever it takes to be obedient. We have so many examples behind us of people that gave up their lives for Christ, no matter what they had to endure including being thrown in the lions den, head cut off, cut up, burned, crucified and so on.  The buying and selling is not going to affect all Christians only true believers. True believers will not do certain things. Not ever to the point of death.

Now take Nebuchadnezzar for example. He had a certain type of music playing and everyone was to bow down to the statue or face death. Well you know hundreds of Israelites bowed down. but the true believers did not and faced death, they knew it was forbidden to bow down to a Idol of any kind. they refused and knew the consequences and was ready and willing to face the consequences. This is the attitude we who are true believers are to have. As for the chip. I very much doubt if that has anything to do with it. but the mark of the beast described in the scriptures is what you believe in your mind and what you do with your hands. If you believe that drinking is good and right this is something you practice and work at.  Same as religion if you believe this false religion and practice it with your hands then you have accepted the mark of the beast, no one can force it on you its something you except.  Same as with the seal of God. You believe and you work within that belief, However, you go above and beyond to make sure your falling after the truth and not falsehood. You walk in the light and you willingly sacrifice whatever the world considers good and wonderful you sit and discover the truth of the matter.  it really is not that hard or difficult to understand, the world makes it seem so but Christ died and rose again to prove that he has power over death so if you should die you will awake again to something so worth dying for. that is what should be in  your heart. that no  matter what it takes, you will lay down your life for Christ only to pick it up again. except perhaps when you do, you  will receive a  crown.  This is why the apostle would sing after a beating, they consider it all joy that they were found worthy to suffer for Christ.


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## InVue (Sep 8, 2011)

*“Now, if the rapture is to happen AFTER the tribulation has already started then what will Christians do?”*

"*Behold, I shew you a mystery*; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: ..." (1 Cor. 15:51-53).

I don’t get caught up in the premillennialist vs. postmillennialism theories.
I believe the return of Christ is as the scripture says *a mystery*. Therefore it is better to be prepared for the “catching away” at *anytime*.  That said I don’t worry about what Christians will do during the tribulation because I believe this is the time to prepare ourselves. Meaning, fasting, praying, and seeking God for strength to withstand whatever befalls; whenever. 

In addition, I can imagine without preparation many professing to know Christ will not be able to stand in such trying times. People can barely lived a successful Christian life now and we are only experiencing an inkling of the depression and discomforts that will occur during tribulation. Imagine what it is going to be like when Satan’s hatred of the saints is unleashed in full force. This world will likely be quite different from the world we are living in today. It will be a world with no conscience.

What are people going to do when their children are crying for food, when their bellies are hungry. What are they going to do when their family and friends turn against them out of fear of retaliation. What are they going to do when they can’t pay their rent or mortgage. What will they do when they’re fired from good paying jobs, their bank account is emptied, and they cannot shop, or access the necessities of life. All this hardship because of their Christian faith. Many undoubtedly, will be easily deceived.   That is why I think this is the time to diligently seek God for the *power* to withstand just in case...  

We lived in a unstable time a time of spiritual preparation. God is sending signs all over the place. This is the time to prepare spiritually not to worry about tomorrow... 

Mat 24:20 “pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:..For then shall be great tribulation...


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## makeupgirl (Sep 8, 2011)

taytay86 said:


> Hi Ladies - I hope that you are all here to answer my question as this was orignally posted over one year ago. Most (including myself) believe the mark of the beast will be the microchip implantation in humans. Now, if the rapture is to happen AFTER the tribulation has already started then what will Christians do? If we are not allowed to buy or sell without the chip, how will we survive? How will our children survive? I watched a lecture where this woman said that even if someone with the chip buys stuff for us without the chip, it will be traced. Meaning then if we are in hiding, they will find us. This is all scary and has me confused. I have this heavy feeling in my heart that the tribulation will be like the Holocaust. If we refuse the chip, we are tortured to death. *Why wouldn't God take his humble servants before all of the tribulation*?


 
He is taking his church/the body of Christ out of the world before the great tribulation.  That's not something that we are suppose to go through.  In 2 Thes 2:6-7 speaks of the restrainer that will be removed, then will Satan be allowed to pretty much wreck havoc on the earth, which is God's appointed time for the Antichrist to be revealed. Everything has an appointed time that is permitted by God. This includes the rapture.  The rapture can happen anytime now.  The 2nd coming of Christ is what takes place after the 7 years of the tribulation is up.  The church is coming back with him to reign with him on earth those 1000 years.  

Now, there are different stages to the 1st resurrection.  "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the 1st resurrection" (rev 20:6)

- (the first fruits) Jesus Christ himself was the first one, that paved the way for the resurrection for those who believe in him
- (harvest) the church age (those who are dead in Christ and is living at the time of the rapture)  (John 14:1-3 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) ... this is before the 7 year tribulation period
- (the gleaning)  resurrection of the OT saints (Dan 12:2) and the tribulation saints (Rev 20:4)..this will be after the 7 year tribulation period

1 Corinthians 15:20-24 (KJV) 



*20*But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 
*21*For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 
*22*For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 
*23*But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.  *24*Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


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## Crown (Sep 9, 2011)

makeupgirl said:


> *He is taking his church/the body of Christ out of the world before the great tribulation*.  That's not something that we are suppose to go through.  In 2 Thes 2:6-7 speaks of the restrainer that will be removed, then will Satan be allowed to pretty much wreck havoc on the earth, which is God's appointed time for the Antichrist to be revealed. Everything has an appointed time that is permitted by God. This includes the rapture.  The rapture can happen anytime now.  The 2nd coming of Christ is what takes place after the 7 years of the tribulation is up.  The church is coming back with him to reign with him on earth those 1000 years.
> 
> Now, there are different stages to the 1st resurrection.  "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the 1st resurrection" (rev 20:6)
> 
> ...


Please don't confound the great tribulation with the righteous wrath of the Almighty One. The elect will not suffer the wrath, but be prepared for the great tribulation.


> Rev. 6.9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 6.10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 6.11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, *until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled*.
> 
> Mat. 24.13 But he that shall *endure unto the end*, the same *shall be saved*.
> 24.21 *For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be*. 24.22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: *but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened*.
> ...


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## makeupgirl (Sep 9, 2011)

Crown said:


> Please don't confound the great tribulation with the righteous wrath of the Almighty One. The elect will not suffer the wrath, but be prepared for the great tribulation.


 
The pre-trib vs. post-trib theory is going to always be debatable (did I even spell that right, lol) but the wrath and the stuff that's going to go down in the great tribulation is not what the church is going to go through because we were not appointed to wrath via 1 Thes 1:10, 1 Thes 5:9. 

There were be folks that are going to be saved during that time, which is why they are called the tribulation saints/martyr. From what I've understood from studying is that some will die for their belief. But the church age will be raptured up to meet Christ in the clouds before this happens. The rapture is an imimenent event, so that can occur at any moment. But the 2nd coming of Christ is after the great trib in which we the body will come back with him at that time to reign with him. 

While everything is going on here on earth, we will be in heaven being judged at the Judgment seat of Christ and parttaking in the Marriage as the bride of Christ. Meanwhile, after the great trib is when the tribulation saints and the OT saints is going to take part in the marriage supper in which they are the invited guest. 

Those left behind during the great tribulation aka Jacob's trouble (not the rock group as I found out, lol) will be those that chosed not to believe in Christ and it's going to be a wrath like no other. What we're going through now here on earth, while we are still here is nothing compare to what is going to go down during that time.

The elect consist of the Israel, church age, the OT saints, and the tribulation saints that will be saved during the great trib.  It could be either Israel or the tribulation saints that is spoken about in Matt 24 meaning of the elect.  Ultimately, we're all going to be with Christ and that's were the goal should be where we keep our eyes upon.


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## Crown (Sep 9, 2011)

makeupgirl said:


> The pre-trib vs. post-trib theory is going to always be debatable (did I even spell that right, lol) but the wrath and the stuff that's going to go down in the great tribulation is not what the church is going to go through because *we were not appointed to wrath* via 1 Thes 1:10, 1 Thes 5:9.
> 
> There were be folks that are going to be saved during that time, which is why they are called the tribulation saints/martyr. From what I've understood from studying is that some will die for their belief. But the church age will be raptured up to meet Christ in the clouds before this happens. The rapture is an imimenent event, so that can occur at any moment. But the 2nd coming of Christ is after the great trib in which we the body will come back with him at that time to reign with him.
> 
> While everything is going on here on earth, we will be in heaven being judged at the Judgment seat of Christ and parttaking in the Marriage as the bride of Christ. Meanwhile, after the great trib is when the tribulation saints and the OT saints is going to take part in the marriage supper in which they are the invited guest.


I agree with you : the children of YHWH are not appointed to His holy wrath, the day of the LORD! But, the great tribulation is for all.




> *Those left behind* during the great tribulation aka Jacob's trouble (not the rock group as I found out, lol) will be those that chosed not to believe in Christ and it's going to be a wrath like no other. What we're going through now here on earth, while we are still here is nothing compare to what is going to go down during that time.


This left behind theory will take many by surprise!




> The elect consist of the Israel, church age, the OT saints, and the tribulation saints that will be saved during the great trib. * It could be* either Israel or the tribulation saints that is spoken about in Matt 24 meaning of the elect.  Ultimately, we're all going to be with Christ and that's were the goal should be where we keep our eyes upon.


Dear, you are interpreting the scriptures!

Mat. 24.29 *Immediately after the tribulation*  of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give  her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the  heavens shall be shaken: 24.30 *And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven*: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, *and they shall see the Son of man coming* in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 24.31 *And he shall send his angels* with a great sound of a trumpet, *and they shall gather together his elect* from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
24.35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.


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## makeupgirl (Sep 9, 2011)

Crown said:


> I agree with you : the children of YHWH are not appointed to His holy wrath, the day of the LORD! But, the great tribulation is for all.
> 
> 
> This left behind theory will take many by surprise!
> ...


 
I'm not interpreting scriptures (I take that verse at the end of revelation about adding and subtracting from scripture very seriously) and no those who have trusted Christ as their Lord and savior will not go through the great tribulation, which is confirmed in 1 Thes 1:10, 1 Thes 5:9 and also Rev 3:10. Why would anyone want to go through it is beyond my understanding and I find myself constantly asking God this very question.

I will always be a pre-trib person and it's been that day upon believing when first studied in bible study 10 years ago. I don't believe that we will go through the great tribulation based on the scriptures provided and one of the most incorrect assumptions about Matt 24 is that we are going through the great tribulation and that's after the church has been raptured up. Once the rapture happens, then the great tribulation will happen because the restrainer has to be removed first, then the Antichrist will be revealed. 

The great tribulation isn't going to be a picnic. We as the body of Christ is going through tribulation and perscuation (sp?), ridicule, etc from the world; which is why Christ said "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." (John 16:33) the tribulation that is called jacobs trouble for the 7 years will be like no other tribulation that has come upon the earth and that is for the those for have rejected Christ time and time again. There will be people that will be saved during this time and it's going to be like a modern day witch trials for them because some will be killed because of their relationship with Christ. 

At any rate, we should look for his coming, his appearing..not the tribulation. Also, that's why we should continue to be about our Father's business and spreading the gospel of Christ so that more people can experience that unspeakable joy that comes from knowing, believing, and trusting Christ. It's the best relationship that anyone is going to have because it's eternal between the person and Jesus Christ.

BTW...I look forward to meeting you ladies in Heaven.  We going to have a ball.    I hope the Lord's coming is soon because I'm tired of sticking myself daily because of these diabetes and the horrible endometrosis pain.


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## Renewed1 (Sep 9, 2011)

Forgive my ignorance....but the answer is NO...right?


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## blazingthru (Sep 9, 2011)

the Answer is Yes, Christian will go through the tribulation. 
*2 Timothy 3:12*

*12Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.*


yes all Christians will go through the tribulation. We must endure to the very end. 
*Matthew 7:24-27*

*24*Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 


*25*And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 
*26*And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: *27*And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.  The storm comes to us all.  


I would like to discuss the 7 year period because no where in scriputure is that found. but I have a ideal where it came from and how it was misinterpreted. 
*Daniel 9:24*

King James Version (KJV)


*24*Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy or 490 years out of the 2,300.00 Seventy weeks were to be "determined upon," or cut off, for the Jews. The seventy prophetic weeks equal 490 literal years (70 x 7 = 490). God's people would soon be returning from captivity in Medo-Persia, and God would cut off 490 years from the 2,300 years and allot them to His chosen people as another opportunity to repent and serve Him.


I will take the rest from a bible study I took this study three years ago and posted this information then. 

Daniel 9:25 when does the starting point begin?
The starting event was a decree from Persian King Artaxerxes authorizing God's people (who were captive in Medo-Persia) to return to Jerusalem and rebuild the city. The decree, found in Ezra chapter 7, was issued in 457 B.C.--the seventh year of the king (verse 7)--and was implemented in the autumn. Artaxerxes began his reign in 464 B.C.

483 full years from the fall of 457 B.C. reaches the fall of A.D. 27. The word "Messiah" means "anointed" (John 1:41). Jesus was anointed with the Holy Ghost (Acts 10:38) at His baptism (Luke 3:21, 22). His anointing took place in the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar (Luke 3:1), which was A.D. 27. _And to think the prediction was made more than 500 years before!_ 

Then Jesus began to preach that "the time is fulfilled" (referring to the 483 years which were to reach to the Messiah). He thus audibly confirmed the prophecy (Mark 1:14, 15; Galatians 4:4). So Jesus actually began His ministry by clearly referring to the 2,300-day prophecy, stressing its importance and accuracy
We have now considered 483 years of the 490-year prophecy. There is one *prophetic week, or seven literal years*, left (Daniel 9:26, 27). What happens next? When does it happen?

*Jesus is "cut off" or crucified "in the midst of the week*," which is *three and one-half years* after His anointing--or the spring of A.D. 31. Please notice how the gospel is revealed in verse 26: "After threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself."

No, praise God, when Jesus was cut off, it was not for Himself. He "who did no sin" (1 Peter 2:22) was crucified for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3; Isaiah 53:5). Jesus' priceless life was lovingly and willingly offered to save us from sin. Hallelujah, what a Saviour! Jesus' atoning sacrifice is the very heart of Daniel chapters 8 and 9.  The covenant is His blessed agreement to save people from their sins (Hebrews 10:16, 17). After His ministry of three and one-half years ended, Jesus confirmed the covenant through His disciples (Hebrews 2:3). He sent them first to the *Jewish nation* (Matthew 10:5, 6), because His chosen people still had three and one-half years remaining of their 490-year opportunity to repent. There are three and a half years remainig. Jesus sent the disicples out to the Jewish nation first, that ended with the stoning of Stephen which was exactly 3.5  years after Christ death. 
That is where the 7 years went, not to the tribulation.  
They began preaching the gospel to other people and nations of the world (Acts 13:46). Stephen, a righteous deacon, was publicly stoned in A.D. 34. From that date onward the Jews, _because they rejected Jesus and God's plan_, were no longer God's chosen people or nation. Instead, God now counts people of all nationalities who accept and serve Him as _spiritual Jews_. They have become His chosen people--"heirs according to the promise." Spiritual Jews do, of course, include Jewish people who individually accept and serve Jesus (Galatians 3:27-29; Romans 2:28, 29).

The stages of resurrection where is that found? there are two resurrections. The first is resurrection to life. The second resurrection is to death. 

to discuss more on the 1,000.00 year period. I think this is also misinterpreted as well. 


The fact that when Jesus parts the clouds thats it. At that point judgement has already been determine actually before tribulation starts it has been determine. No one will be saved during tribulation. 
*Revelation 22:11-12*

King James Version (KJV)



*11*He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. *12*And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. it is already decided before Jesus comes. 

 
No one can be saved without the holy spirit and God has said that the Holy Spirit would not strive long with man. 
so we are getting more rain, more storms, earthquakes warning signs. Turn your life over to Christ while its called today. he has been sending wake up calls everyday now.


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## makeupgirl (Sep 10, 2011)

This is the explanation of the 7 year tribulation time.  aka Jacob's trouble, the great tribulation aka literal hell on earth.

This is from got questions http://www.gotquestions.org/tribulation.html

*Question: "What is the Tribulation? How do we know the Tribulation will last seven years?"

Answer: * The tribulation is a future seven-year period of time when God will  finish His discipline of Israel and finalize His judgment of the  unbelieving world. The church, made up of all who have trusted in the  person and work of the Lord Jesus to save them from being punished for  sin, will not be present during the tribulation. The church will be  removed from the earth in an event known as the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). The church is saved from the wrath to come (1 Thessalonians 5:9). Throughout Scripture, the tribulation is referred to by other names such as the Day of the Lord (Isaiah 2:12; 13:6-9; Joel 1:15; 2:1-31; 3:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:2); trouble or tribulation (Deuteronomy 4:30; Zephaniah 1:1); the great tribulation, which refers to the more intense second half of the seven-year period (Matthew 24:21); time or day of trouble (Daniel 12:1; Zephaniah 1:15); time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7).

An understanding of Daniel 9:24-27  is necessary in order to understand the purpose and time of the  tribulation. This passage speaks of 70 weeks that have been declared  against “your people.” Daniel's people are the Jews, the nation of  Israel, and Daniel 9:24  speaks of a period of time that God has given “to finish transgression,  to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting  righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most  holy.” God declares that “seventy sevens” will fulfill all these things.  This is 70 sevens of years, or 490 years. (Some translations refer to  70 weeks of years.) This is confirmed by another part of this passage in  Daniel. In verses 25 and 26, Daniel is told that the Messiah will be  cut off after “seven sevens and sixty-two sevens” (69 total), beginning  with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. In other words, 69 sevens of years  (483 years) after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, the Messiah will be  cut off. Biblical historians confirm that 483 years passed from the time  of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the time when Jesus was  crucified. Most Christian scholars, regardless of their view of  eschatology (future things/events), have the above understanding of  Daniel's 70 sevens.

With 483 years having passed from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the  cutting off of the Messiah, this leaves one seven-year period to be  fulfilled in terms of Daniel 9:24:  “to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for  wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and  prophecy and to anoint the most holy.” This final seven-year period is  known as the tribulation period—it is a time when God finishes judging  Israel for its sin.

Daniel 9:27  gives a few highlights of the seven-year tribulation period: “He will  confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the  'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of  the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until  the end that is decreed is poured out on him.” The person of whom this  verse speaks is the person Jesus calls the “abomination that causes  desolation” (Matthew 24:15) and is called “the beast” in Revelation 13. Daniel 9:27  says that the beast will make a covenant for seven years, but in the  middle of this week (3 1/2 years into the tribulation), he will break  the covenant, putting a stop to sacrifice. Revelation 13 explains that  the beast will place an image of himself in the temple and require the  world to worship him. Revelation 13:5 says that this will go on for 42 months, which is 3 1/2 years. Since Daniel 9:27 says that this will happen in the middle of the week, and Revelation 13:5  says that the beast will do this for a period of 42 months, it is easy  to see that the total length of time is 84 months or seven years. Also  see Daniel 7:25,  where the “time, times, and half a time” (time=1 year; times=2 years;  half a time=1/2 year; total of 3 1/2 years) also refers to “great  tribulation,” the last half of the seven-year tribulation period when  the beast will be in power.

For further references about the tribulation, see Revelation 11:2-3, which speaks of 1260 days and 42 months, and Daniel 12:11-12,  which speaks of 1290 days and 1335 days. These days have a reference to  the midpoint of the tribulation. The additional days in Daniel 12 may  include the time at the end for the judgment of the nations (Matthew 25:31-46) and time for the setting up of Christ's millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6).

Also rapture ready has some articles regarding the rapture and lots of info that is in alignment with scripture regarding the end times.


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## aribell (Sep 10, 2011)

Sorry, haven't read the thread, but while Christians aren't appointed to God's wrath, Satan himself does and will make war against the saints.  The tribulation of the end times is also about the temporary rise of Satan and his exercise of power.  He will attack the Church and Christians will suffer greatly.  If we refuse to accept that, we won't be prepared to be killed for upholding the name of Jesus and we'll buckle.  

We have to be willing and prepared to suffer.

Sent from my LS670 using LS670


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## makeupgirl (Sep 10, 2011)

There are different series of the 1st resurrection.  

1) Jesus' resurrection (his resurrection is the first fruits for the believers)
2) the church age (the body/bride of Christ)
3) OT saints
4) Tribulation saints (those who are saved during the great tribulation) 

another article with scriptures from got questions 

*Question: "When will the Resurrection take place?"

Answer: * The Bible is clear that resurrection is a reality and this life is not  all that there is. While death is the end of physical life, it is not  the end of human existence. Many erroneously believe that there is one  general resurrection at the end of the age, but the Bible teaches that  there will be not one resurrection, but a series of resurrections, some  to eternal life in heaven and some to eternal damnation (Daniel 12:2; John 5:28-29).

The first great resurrection was the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is  documented in each of the four Gospels (Matthew 28; Mark 16; Luke 24;  John 20), cited several times in Acts (Acts 1:22; 2:31; 4:2, 33; 26:23), and mentioned repeatedly in the letters to the churches (Romans 1:4; Philippians 3:10; 1 Peter 1:3). Much is made of the importance of Christ’s resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:12-34,  which records that over five hundred people saw Him at one of His  post-resurrection appearances. Christ’s resurrection is the “first  fruits” or guarantee to every Christian that he will also be  resurrected. Christ’s resurrection is also the basis of the Christian’s  certainty that all people who have died will one day be raised to face  fair and even-handed judgment by Jesus Christ (Acts 17:30-31). The resurrection to eternal life is described as “the first resurrection” (Revelation 20:5-6); the resurrection to judgment and torment is described as “the second death” (Revelation 20:6, 13-15).

The first great resurrection of the Church will occur at the time of the  rapture. All those who have placed their trust in Jesus Christ during  the Church Age, and have died before Jesus returns, will be resurrected  at the rapture. The Church Age began on the Day of Pentecost and will  end when Christ returns to take believers back to heaven with Him (John 14:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). The Apostle Paul explained that not all Christians will die, but all will be changed, i.e., given resurrection-type bodies (1 Corinthians 15:50-58),  some without having to die! Christians who are alive, and those who  have already died, will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and be  with Him always!

Another great resurrection will occur when Christ returns to earth (His  Second Coming) at the end of the Tribulation period. After the rapture,  the Tribulation is the next event after the Church Age in God’s  chronology. This will be a time of terrible judgment upon the world,  described in great detail in Revelation chapters 6-18. Though all Church  Age believers will be gone, millions of people left behind on earth  will come to their senses during this time and will trust in Jesus as  their Savior. Tragically, most of them will pay for their faith in Jesus  by losing their lives (Revelation 6:9-11; 7:9-17; 13:7, 15-17; 17:6; 19:1-2).  These believers in Jesus who die during the Tribulation will be  resurrected at Christ’s return and will reign with Him for a thousand  years during the Millennium (Revelation 20:4, 6).  Old Testament believers such as Job, Noah, Abraham, David and even John  the Baptist (who was assassinated before the Church began) will be  resurrected at this time also. Several passages in the Old Testament  mention this event (Job 19:25-27; Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:1-2; Hosea 13:14). Ezekiel 37:1-14  describes primarily the regathering of the Nation of Israel using the  symbolism of dead corpses coming back to life. But from the language  used, a physical resurrection of dead Israelis cannot be excluded from  the passage. Again, all believers in God (in the Old Testament era) and  all believers in Jesus (in the New Testament era) participate in the  first resurrection, a resurrection to life (Revelation 20:4, 6).

There may be another resurrection at the end of the Millennium, one  which is implied, but never explicitly stated in Scripture. It is  possible that some believers will die a physical death during the  Millennium. Through the prophet Isaiah, God said, "No longer will there  be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not  live out his days; for the youth will die at the age of one hundred and  the one who does not reach the age of one hundred will be thought  accursed” (Isaiah 65:20).  On the other hand, it is also possible that death in the Millennium  will only come to the disobedient. In either event, some kind of  transformation will be required to fit believers in their natural bodies  in the Millennium for pristine existence throughout eternity. Each  believer will need to have a “resurrected” type of body.

It is clear from Scripture that God will destroy the entire universe, including the earth, with fire (2 Peter 3:7-12).  This will be necessary to purge God’s creation of its endemic evil and  decay brought upon it by man’s sin. In its place God will create a new  heaven and a new earth (2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:1-4).  But what will happen to those believers who survived the Tribulation  and entered the Millennium in their natural bodies? And what will happen  to those who were born during the Millennium, trusted in Jesus, and  continued to live in their natural bodies? Paul has made it clear that  flesh and blood, which is mortal and able to decay, cannot inherit the  kingdom of God. That eternal kingdom is inhabitable only by those with  resurrected, glorified bodies that are no longer mortal and are not able  to decay (1 Corinthians 15:35-49).  Presumably, these believers will be given resurrection bodies without  having to die. Precisely when this happens is not explained, but  theologically, it must happen somewhere in the transition from the old  earth and universe to the new earth and new heaven (2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:1-4).

There is a final resurrection, apparently of all the unbelieving dead of all ages. Jesus Christ will raise them from the dead (John 5:25-29) after the Millennium, the thousand-year reign of Christ (Revelation 20:5), and after the destruction of the present earth and universe (2 Peter 3:7-12; Revelation 20:11).  This is the resurrection described by Daniel as an awakening “from the  dust of the ground ... to disgrace and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2). It is described by Jesus as a “resurrection of judgment” (John 5:28-29).


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## makeupgirl (Sep 10, 2011)

cont'

The Apostle John saw something that would happen in the future. He saw a “great white throne” (Revelation 20:11).   Heaven and earth “fled away” from the One sitting on it. This is   evidently a description of the dissolution by fire of all matter,   including the entire universe and earth itself (2 Peter 3:7-12). All the (godless) dead will stand before the throne. This means they have been resurrected after the thousand years (Revelation 20:5). They will possess bodies that can feel pain but will never cease to exist (Mark 9:43-48).   They will be judged, and their punishment will be commensurate with   their works. But there is another book opened—the Lamb’s book of life (Revelation 21:27). Those whose names are not written in the book of life are cast into the “lake of fire,” which amounts to “the second death” (Revelation 20:11-15).   No indication is given of any who appear at this judgment that their   names are found in the book of life. Rather, those whose names appear in   the book of life were among those who are blessed, for they received   forgiveness and partook of the first resurrection, the resurrection to   life (Revelation 20:6).

http://www.gotquestions.org/when-resurrection.html

*Question: "What is the first resurrection? What is the second resurrection?"

Answer: * Daniel 12:2   summarizes the two very different fates facing mankind: “Many of them   that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting   life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” Everyone will be   raised from the dead, but not everyone will share the same destiny. The   New Testament reveals the further detail of separate resurrections for   the just and the unjust.

Revelation 20:4-6 mentions a “first resurrection” and identifies those involved as “blessed and holy.” The second death (the lake of fire, Revelation 20:14)   has no power over these individuals. The first resurrection, then, is   the raising of all believers. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of  the  “resurrection of the just” (Luke 14:14) and the “resurrection of life” (John 5:29).

 The first resurrection takes place in various stages. Jesus Christ Himself (the “first fruits,” 1 Corinthians 15:20), paved the way for the resurrection of all who believe in Him. There was a resurrection of the Jerusalem saints (Matthew 27:52-53)   which should be included in our consideration of the first   resurrection. Still to come are the resurrection of “the dead in Christ”   at the Lord’s return (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and the resurrection of the martyrs at the end of the Tribulation (Revelation 20:4).

Revelation 20:12-13 identifies those comprising the second resurrection as the wicked judged by God at the great white throne judgment   prior to being cast into the lake of fire. The second resurrection,   then, is the raising of all unbelievers; the second resurrection is   connected to the second death. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of   the “resurrection of damnation” (John 5:29).

 The event which divides the first and second resurrections seems to be   the millennial kingdom. The last of the righteous are raised to reign   “with Christ a thousand years” (Revelation 20:4), but the “rest of the dead [that is, the wicked] lived not again until the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:5).

 What great rejoicing will attend the first resurrection! What great   anguish at the second! What a responsibility we have to share the   Gospel! “And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire” (Jude 23).

http://www.gotquestions.org/resurrection-first-second.html

 Got questions explains it a lot better than I can but I didn't solely go  on gotquestions to get the info but I prayed to the Holy Spirit for the  understanding of the scripture and was led to gotquestions along with  other sites while studying and researching.

 Post trib vs Pre trib are always going to be in disagreement.  I guess  that's just the way it is but I've just learned to agree to disagree and  look towards the goal of knowing that we're all going to meet Jesus  face to face as brothers and sisters in Christ.


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## blazingthru (Sep 10, 2011)

Makeupgirl, I really could not comment without offending you and for that I  apologize. I know you copied it and so it is to the person that wrote this article this post is actually meant for, it is not accurate. It provides false hope and allows people to believe that when Jesus comes they have seven years left to get it right and no where in the word of God does it say that. Those seven years are explained already. This man has it completely wrong.  In any case most of the Prophecy mentioned above, out of order, has already been fulfilled.   I will post later all of the prophecies that have been fulfilled. Because its important to know whats really going on.  The bible says in Luke 21:25-26
Luke 21:25-26

King James Version (KJV)

  25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 

 26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
All this stuff going on people are lost and want to know where to turn. My situation is no better. I am concerned as to how I will handle the difficult times ahead, I have to much on my shoulders, but inside I am excited because I know the Lord is coming soon. I also know we need to be accurate and so I will come back with the fufilled prohecies, I believed I posted this already.


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## Ithacagurl (Sep 11, 2011)

There is no truth more fixed and dependable than God’s faithfulness. His saints, redeemed by the Blood of His Son, Jesus Christ, are His delight. We are not just His servants; we are His friends and the future Bride of his Son. We are plainly instructed by the Apostle Paul that we are joint heirs with Jesus Christ. “For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.” (Romans 8:15-17). “Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom.” (Luke 12:32).

Understanding His faithfulness and knowing that we are “heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ are foundational truths for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. The wrath of God has never been directed against His chosen that find grace in His presence. Not one Scripture in the Word of God places the righteous and the unholy together under a display of the Father’s wrath. From the worship of Cain and Abel in Genesis chapter 4, God always makes a distinction between obedience and disobedience. God accepted Abel’s worship and rejected Cain’s bloodless sacrifice and the manifestation of God’s Spirit in accepting Abel’s worship left no doubt. Holy Justice can never condemn the righteous for the deeds of the wicked. This is a principle that underlies every revelation of the Holy Bible.

The Differences Between Tribulation and Wrath! … In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.” (John 16:33). It is probably unfortunate that we use the same word tribulation for the normal experiences of every Biblical saint with the period the Scripture calls the “Great Tribulation.” There is a total difference between the “much tribulation” that Luke wrote about in Acts and the “Great Tribulation” that Jesus spoke about as recorded in Matthew. Luke stated, “Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.” (Acts 14:22). Matthew recorded Jesus’ words as following, “And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.” (Matthew 24:19-22). The difference is extremely clear.

The word tribulation embodies the idea of pressure and trouble. There are clearly many different levels of this pressure or trouble throughout the Scripture. Jesus Christ experienced incredible pressure and sorrows in His crisis of death. The tribulation of His sorrows in behalf of our redemption is the basis of why He said, … In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome (already defeated those tribulations) the world.” (John 16:33). The tribulation that the Son of God experienced for us, but that we still face by faith in Him is not the wrath of God but the wrath of the world. This pressure that Satan and the world under his control brings to bear has no kinship to the pressure of God’s wrath directed toward the wicked and Satan’s crowd.
When you simply translate the word tribulation by its distinctive meaning of pressure and trouble, it clears up the confusion that many people have assigned to this subject. As Luke wrote in Acts, we enter into the Kingdom of God by much pressure and trouble. The world is not a friend to the saints of God. “We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.” (II Corinthians 4:8-11). These tribulations or pressures that we bear make mature saints out of us as we trust in Him and die to our own selves. The “Great Tribulation” is a distinctive time of pressure and trouble directed towards a population that is infested with sin: that has rejected the revelations of Jesus Christ. It is also planned as tribulation or pressure against the hordes of hell or Satan and his fallen angels. While our tribulation or pressure produces redemption of the saints, this future tribulation or pressure produces the redemption of the earth and God’s cosmos. This makes it clear why the same word is used. In both cases, it is redemption that is produced by the pressure of tribulation.

God Never Inflicts His Wrath on His Saints! It is Biblically unthinkable that our God would ever allow His chosen saints to be left in the middle of His judgment of the wicked. He has never done so, nor will He ever do such an unprincipled thing. It is contrary to His nature and to His faithfulness. To leave the saints of God on this earth, while He poured out His redeeming wrath on the Christ-rejecting crowd would strike at the heart of His holiness. It will not happen because it cannot happen. Anything that is contrary to His nature must never be assigned to His actions.


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## Ithacagurl (Sep 11, 2011)

The Days of Noah! The Book of Genesis is an infallible part of the Holy Bible. Every word of this Book is exact and perfectly true. It was Jesus Christ Himself that compared the days of Noah with the coming of the Son of Man. “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.” (Matthew 24:36-42). Reasonable scholars that do not have strange theology to defend believe that this is the exact language concerning the Rapture before the Tribulation.

The story concerning Noah is breathtaking. The Father was repenting that He had created man. “And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.” (Genesis 6:6). He then determined that He would destroy man and beast from the face of this earth and then He stated again, “… for it repenteth me that I have made them.” (Genesis 6:7). Then our faithful God looked in the direction of a godly man named Noah and stated, “But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.” (Genesis 6:8). What a picture of the nature of God’s holiness. He was ready to destroy His own creation, but then one man was not guilty of the filth of the rest and God devised a plan to save that one man and his family from the planned holocaust. This principle sets the tone for the entire Word of God and God’s acts of judgment. He must judge sin, but He will do it by the principles of His own nature.
Noah had to act in obedience to receive the promise of deliverance from the impending wrath. He was instructed to build an ark to the saving of His household and was given the plans for the same. This is the same principle that has never changed. Our salvation is free, but Jesus made it plain that our deliverance from impending wrath is a matter of our faithfulness. Jesus said, “But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.” (Matthew 24:43-44). He forever makes a difference between the righteous and the unrighteous.


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## Ithacagurl (Sep 11, 2011)

When Noah had finished the ark, God Himself came to see the project. While He was on the inside, He called to Noah, “And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.” (Genesis 7:1). When Noah and his family, plus all the creatures of the earth had finished entering the ark, the Scripture states, “… and the LORD shut him in.” (Genesis 7:16b). It’s beautiful to see the Lord call him from the inside, but shut the door from the outside. God cannot be limited to an ark made by man, but He certainly was responsible for the security of Noah’s family by securing the door Himself. This story is a breathtaking truth. It is a perfect picture of God’s faithfulness in the judgment of the wicked. The protection of the righteous is a personal thing with our Heavenly Father. He did not assign this project to even His most trusted angel.

The Days of Lot! Lot and his removal from Sodom and Gomorrah before its destruction is another prime picture of God’s nature in judgment. He will always and in every case judge sin, but He will never judge the righteous at the same moment or in the same manner. It is impossible for sin to ever go unpunished, but it is just as impossible for sin and righteousness to be treated the same. Sodom and Gomorrah’s population had filled the cup of sin to its max. But, our God determined that He by His nature would do right and the righteous had to be delivered. Listen to the words of Abraham when he was speaking to the Lord, “That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?” (Genesis 18:25).

The Heavenly Father sent His angels right into the throbs of filth to assure the removal of Lot and those in his family that feared God. Our God even said that if He found as few as ten righteous persons in Sodom and Gomorrah, He would not destroy the city. “… And he (God) said, I will not destroy it for ten’s sake.” (Genesis 18:32b). Settle it in your mind that this is God’s nature and not just a story of how He acted in one circumstance. He is the Lord and He doesn’t change. Lot had family that had become compromised by the evil of their surroundings. They had no fear of God and laughed Lot to scorn. “And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.” (Genesis 19:14). We live in a similar generation where the families of many believers are careless and unconcerned. It is evident that Lot had allowed himself to give up the more separated life of a Bedouin for the comforts of Sodom and Gomorrah. The New Testament writer said that Lot’s righteous soul was “vexed by the unlawful deeds” of these sodomites. “And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds” (II Peter 2:6-8).
I believe he lost those family members because he chose worldly comforts over living a separated life with them in a pure environment. How many believers, themselves living holy lives, have taken their families into social settings and compromising churches only to watch their children lose the fear of God. It is sad to consider this Godly man having to leave these cities knowing that part of his family was “left behind.” In fact, Lot was so hesitant to leave that the angels had to remove him. “And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law. And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city. And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.” (Genesis 19:14-16).

The angels had to take Lot and his wife and two of his daughters by the hands and take them out of the city. This generation seems about as reluctant to escape this filthy world as Lot and his family were. Finally, the angel said, “Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do any thing till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.” (Genesis 19:22). Do not forget those words, “…for I cannot do any thing till thou be come thither.” This is the faithfulness of God. They were not saved by their goodness, but by His “grace.” It is easy to understand why Lot’s wife looked back and lost her deliverance. She was leaving daughters, son-in-laws, and probably grandchildren to be consumed in the flames of fire and brimstone. She could not refrain herself from looking back when her own flesh and blood was about to suffer hell on earth. “But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.” (Genesis 19:26). Is it possible that this scenario will be repeated when the Son of Man comes for His saints? Will there be saintly people so besieged with passions for their unsaved loved ones that they miss the Rapture? I would not suggest so, but the thought strikes terror to my heart. Remember the Scripture, “So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.” (Hebrews 9:28). Regardless of what is left behind, His saints must look for Him without hesitation.

He Reserves Wrath For His Enemies! This prophetic truth spoken by a prophet named Nahum is breathtaking, “God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies” (Nahum 1:2). What a statement of absolute perfection concerning the nature of God in His judgments. The wrath of God cannot be mixed but is always divinely discerned in the object of its activities. God is a jealous God. He will not allow sin to go unpunished. Never! But, He reserves His wrath for His enemies. As our Heavenly Father, He will chasten us, lay His rod of correction upon us and deal correctingly, but lovingly with us. He may even direct His righteous anger at us because of disobedience, but His wrath is reserved for the wicked that refuse to obey His will. He created this universe for His glory and honor and He is jealous over it with an unfailing love. It will be subject unto Him shortly and all that opposes Him will be consumed by His wrath.

This principle lives even more beautifully in the New Covenant. Jesus filled His message with the promises that He came not to condemn but to save. Jesus said, “For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.” (John 3:17-21).

His great message of deliverance forever tempers the rigid positions of His commandments. The laws of God bring conviction of sin, but the grace of God cleanses and delivers us from the powers of sin. He is the door by which we escape the coming wrath; therefore, we are no longer under the “fear of judgment.” The coming “seven years of wrath” is not a “New Covenant” message. It is an “Old Covenant” message. Jesus reinterated this fact when He prophesied of its future fulfillment. The wrath of God and the wrath of the Lamb are seen in their coming horror in Revelation chapter six. This earth cannot be a “Garden of Eden” until righteousness is established in judgment. Sin was finished on the cross, but the finality of this finish has to be manifest by an outpouring of wrath on those that refuse the pardon from sin’s prison. Sin is finished in those that are redeemed by His blood, but the enemies of God are yet to be dealt with.

Now, we see why the “wrath of God” must be poured forth, but it is unthinkable and impossible for those redeemed by His blood to be subject to this wrath. He has Himself borne our wrath on His cross at Calvary. If we were subject to that wrath, then Calvary would have been in vain. We must look at this wrath and note those that cry out because of its terror. “And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” (Revelation 6:15-17). The saints are already around the throne as this defining moment begins.


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## Ithacagurl (Sep 11, 2011)

Paul’s epistle confirms this truth, “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.” (II Thessalonians 5:9-11). This Scripture, when viewed in light of the above facts, almost comes off the pages of Holy Writ. The Jewish believers were students of the laws and prophets of God. They trembled under the weight of the coming judgments for sin. Their history is filled with examples of God’s wrath. The story of the Assyrians and Babylonians, who acted as God’s instruments of judgment, were all too familiar. It was “Good News” to hear that Jesus Christ had taken their wrath on the cross and that they no longer had to flee.

As a whole, the Nation of Israel refused this message and rejected the Son of God and they have lived under wrath since that day with more to come. As wounded as my heart feels for the Nation of Israel today, even as I pray for the peace of Jerusalem, that peace cannot be complete until Messiah comes and they are redeemed. We resist the truth of God’s Word when we expect them to have complete peace until they repent for helping crucify the Son of God. Thank God we are at the door of that prophetic moment. Israel, will soon be under the ultimate wrath of the Lamb and will be redeemed when they see Him coming in glory at the conclusion of the Battle of Armageddon Our present joy is to “wait for the Son from Heaven.” The apostles’ messages were constantly filled with this assurance. They knew that God’s wrath was a future fact, but they had no dread. “And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.” (I Thessalonians 1:10).

Apostle Peter spoke with enthusiasm of the same assurance. Look carefully at the hope of His words. “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.” (II Peter 3:10-14).

Conclusion! On and on you can search the pages of the New Covenant to find much assurance that we, as His saints, are not “appointed unto wrath.” We have been delivered from that wrath because he took our wrath for us. “Isaiah the prophet said, “It pleased the Lord to bruise Him” that we might be set free. This does not give us liberty to be lovers of this world and to live carelessly. Rather, it calls us unto holiness and soberness of mind. John the Revelator summed it up to the Church of Philadelphia. He stated by the Holy Ghost as given to Jesus by the Father, “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” (Revelation 3:10). For the saints of God, who are watching the incredible events of prophetic fulfillment, the atmosphere is filled with the Blessed Hope.


“SEVEN YEARS OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION” IS THE TITLE OF “OPEN BIBLE DIALOGUE”that started last SATURDAY. The Lying Prophets hate the END TIMES Prophesy in the Bible. You can identify almost all Doctrinal error by the absence of PRE-TRIBULATION teaching. The Emergent Church hates the GREAT TRIBULATION at the same level as the Devil hates it.

By Joseph Chambers


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## makeupgirl (Sep 12, 2011)

Ithacagurl said:


> Paul’s epistle confirms this truth, “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.” (II Thessalonians 5:9-11). This Scripture, when viewed in light of the above facts, almost comes off the pages of Holy Writ. The Jewish believers were students of the laws and prophets of God. They trembled under the weight of the coming judgments for sin. Their history is filled with examples of God’s wrath. The story of the Assyrians and Babylonians, who acted as God’s instruments of judgment, were all too familiar. It was “Good News” to hear that Jesus Christ had taken their wrath on the cross and that they no longer had to flee.
> 
> As a whole, the Nation of Israel refused this message and rejected the Son of God and they have lived under wrath since that day with more to come. As wounded as my heart feels for the Nation of Israel today, even as I pray for the peace of Jerusalem, that peace cannot be complete until Messiah comes and they are redeemed. We resist the truth of God’s Word when we expect them to have complete peace until they repent for helping crucify the Son of God. Thank God we are at the door of that prophetic moment. Israel, will soon be under the ultimate wrath of the Lamb and will be redeemed when they see Him coming in glory at the conclusion of the Battle of Armageddon Our present joy is to “wait for the Son from Heaven.” The apostles’ messages were constantly filled with this assurance. They knew that God’s wrath was a future fact, but they had no dread. “And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.” (I Thessalonians 1:10).
> 
> ...



Great lesson.


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## Sharpened (Sep 12, 2011)

As I was reading this, a thought popped into my head: those who seek comfort and peace in this world will be disappointed; those who seek Him and His Kingdom will be "healed of the curse (avoid judgment? survive the trials?)."

I am super-busy right now, so the response will trickle out.



> _There is no truth more fixed and dependable than God’s faithfulness. His saints, redeemed by the Blood of His Son, Jesus Christ, are His delight. We are not just His servants; we are His friends and the future Bride of his Son._





> *John 15:14* [Jesus said,] “You are my friends, if you do whatever I command you.”
> 
> *Matthew 12:50* [Jesus said,] “For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.”





> _We are plainly instructed by the Apostle Paul that we are joint heirs with Jesus Christ. “For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.” (Romans 8:15-17). “Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom.” (Luke 12:32)._





> *Mark 10:38* and *Matthew 20:22* But Jesus answered and said, “You know not what you ask. Are you able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?”





> _Understanding His faithfulness and knowing that we are “heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ are foundational truths for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture._


The author’s opinion only.



> _The wrath of God has never been directed against His chosen that find grace in His presence._


No righteous have died during the judgment of a nation?



> _Not one Scripture in the Word of God places the righteous and the unholy together under a display of the Father’s wrath._


Wrong, Noah and his family went through the flood and survive by Noah’s obedience. The Book of Exodus demonstrates His people in the midst of Egypt’s judgment but He guided them through it. This will happen again. There is no biblical precedent for a rapture out of trials and troubles. 



> _From the worship of Cain and Abel in Genesis chapter 4, God always makes a distinction between obedience and disobedience. God accepted Abel’s worship and rejected Cain’s bloodless sacrifice and the manifestation of God’s Spirit in accepting Abel’s worship left no doubt. Holy Justice can never condemn the righteous for the deeds of the wicked. This is a principle that underlies every revelation of the Holy Bible._


But that does not mean the righteous will escape torture and death. This guy sounds like Job's friends.



> _The Differences Between Tribulation and Wrath! … In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.” (John 16:33). It is probably unfortunate that we use the same word tribulation for the normal experiences of every Biblical saint with the period the Scripture calls the “Great Tribulation.” There is a total difference between the “much tribulation” that Luke wrote about in Acts and the “Great Tribulation” that Jesus spoke about as recorded in Matthew. _


The Great Tribulation is NOT the Wrath of the LORD; they are two separate time periods.



> *Matthew 24:29-31* and *Mark 13:24-27* Immediately *after the tribulation* of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: *And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven*: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and *they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.*





> _Luke stated, “Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.” (Acts 14:22). Matthew recorded Jesus’ words as following, “And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.” (Matthew 24:19-22). The difference is extremely clear._


The difference demonstrated here is the trouble and suffering of the true saints right now verses the final trial that is a sign of His coming. See Psalm 91 for another example of what believers will go through.


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## Sharpened (Sep 12, 2011)

> _The word tribulation embodies the idea of pressure and trouble. There are clearly many different levels of this pressure or trouble throughout the Scripture. Jesus Christ experienced incredible pressure and sorrows in His crisis of death. The tribulation of His sorrows in behalf of our redemption is the basis of why He said, … In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome (already defeated those tribulations) the world.” (John 16:33). _


Well, this paragraph just downgraded all of the martyrs of the faith. The Father will reward them, anyway (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 12:11). Also, Jesus overcame sin and death by being our final sacrifice, not tribulation.



> _The tribulation that the Son of God experienced for us, but that we still face by faith in Him is not the wrath of God but the wrath of the world. This pressure that Satan and the world under his control brings to bear has no kinship to the pressure of God’s wrath directed toward the wicked and Satan’s crowd._





> *Matthew 24:9-14* Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and you shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
> And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness to all nations; and then shall the end come.
> 
> *Mark 13:9-13 *But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues you shall be beaten: and you shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
> ...



That means the end of the Great Tribulation is the end of Evangel being preached fully in the world. Nowhere does it say we are removed from persecution and death.



> _When you simply translate the word tribulation by its distinctive meaning of pressure and trouble, it clears up the confusion that many people have assigned to this subject. As Luke wrote in Acts, we enter into the Kingdom of God by much pressure and trouble. The world is not a friend to the saints of God. “We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.” (II Corinthians 4:8-11). These tribulations or pressures that we bear make mature saints out of us as we trust in Him and die to our own selves. _





> *1 Corinthians 1:17-19 *For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
> For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but to us which are saved it is the power of God.
> 
> For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. [Isaiah 29:14]
> ...



He is repeating himself, trying to push the idea that the trials of faith are all we have to worry about. If that were the case, the ecclesia would be operating at full power, instead of being retarded by the “good intentions” of men.



> _The “Great Tribulation” is a distinctive time of pressure and trouble directed towards a population that is infested with sin: that has rejected the revelations of Jesus Christ. It is also planned as tribulation or pressure against the hordes of hell or Satan and his fallen angels. While our tribulation or pressure produces redemption of the saints, this future tribulation or pressure produces the redemption of the earth and God’s cosmos. This makes it clear why the same word is used. In both cases, it is redemption that is produced by the pressure of tribulation._


  The timeline of Jesus’ return was directed towards the saints during the end times, since that is what the disciples asked about.



> _God Never Inflicts His Wrath on His Saints! It is Biblically unthinkable that our God would ever allow His chosen saints to be left in the middle of His judgment of the wicked. He has never done so, nor will He ever do such an unprincipled thing. It is contrary to His nature and to His faithfulness. To leave the saints of God on this earth, while He poured out His redeeming wrath on the Christ-rejecting crowd would strike at the heart of His holiness. It will not happen because it cannot happen. Anything that is contrary to His nature must never be assigned to His actions. _


This guy is repeating himself again! This is an old technique of persuasion: say the same things in different ways. I am done; this screed is not of God, but from a dominionist who believes in using the tools of the world to talk people into the Evangel instead of letting His words and Spirit do their job.

It boils down to this: either you believe what Jesus said in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and about the saints in Revelation, or you do not. Nothing Paul or any one else said means anything without believing what Jesus, the Word of God, said. And no, Matthew 24 and Mark 13 have NOT been fulfilled yet.


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## blazingthru (Sep 13, 2011)

*2 Peter 1:20 *“Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.”
*Isaiah 28:10 *“For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:”
*1 John 2:18-19* “Little children, it is the last time: and as you have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there MANY antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from US, but they were not of US; for if they had been of US, they would no doubt have continued with US: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of US.”
Did you note that John said that antichrist went out from US? Thus John is saying that antichrist was part of their own Church but they went out on their own. He is also saying that antichrist was more than one person and these people went out on their own and formed their own Church. Again, how can this be if antichrist is supposedly only one man?

Are you ready for the real bombshell? The theory of a future one man antichrist was manufactured prophecy from the 15th century and was written by some very evil people. Are you ready for an even bigger bombshell? These Jesuits were commissioned to do this by this very antichrist power itself that John spoke of and was done to divert attention off themselves as being antichrist and to place it on some future fictional one man antichrist.
the beast is here now and has been operating for over a thousand years. Again, this prophecy is not against sincere people who do not fully understand the Bible, but against a system that leads away from direct faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and has introduced many subtle traditions into the Christian Church

This was done when the early Protestants discovered that the real identity of antichrist was actually right under their nose and the word spread quickly. It was discovered that the antichrist was not an individual but an entire antichrist system that denies Jesus came in the flesh and has greatly affected what is important to God such as His sanctuary, His Church and His law
Apocalyptic films like A Thief in the Night, Revelation, Apocalypse, and Left Behind: The Movie, all depict the vanishing of Christians in the Rapture prior to the arrival of the Antichrist. In fact, this concept of Rapture first and Antichrist second has become so popular that many are not even willing to listen to an alternative view. Yet Jesus Christ definitely requires an attitude of openness to His Word from every Christian. Just because a certain doctrine is believed by millions, this does not necessarily mean it is true. Jesus said, “Search the Scriptures” (John 5:39). The noble Bereans “searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether those things were so” (Acts 17:11). We must “test all things,” and “hold fast to that which is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:21).

According to the Bible, which comes first, the Rapture or the arrival of the Antichrist? Amazingly, the Paul gives us a very straight and simple answer in 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 3.

“Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together to Him [here is when the church is gathered] ... Let no man deceive you by any means [this warning is addressed to Christians]. For that day [the day when Jesus comes to gather us] shall not come except there come a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed [Antichrist], the son of perdition.”

Do you see it? Paul wrote about: 1) the coming of Jesus Christ; 2) our gathering to Him; and 3) the arrival of the Man of Sin. When it comes to the order of events, Paul is very definite. He said that before Jesus comes to gather us, the falling away must take place first and the Man of Sin must be revealed. Thus the Man of Sin [also called Antichrist], must come first, before Jesus comes to gather us.

Paul said, “*Let no man deceive you by any means” about this exact truth!*Paul called the Antichrist, “the man of sin ... the son of perdition” (2 Thessalonians 2:3). It is primarily because of this verse that millions have come to believe that there will be only one super sinister Mr. Sin who will rise to power after the Rapture. Is it true? Will there be only one man, the Antichrist? Is this what Paul really meant?

First of all, in the little book of 1 John, the Bible plainly says there are “many antichrists” and John states that antichrist came from US speaking of the Church (1 John 2:18-19), and a “spirit of antichrist” (1 John 4:3). John also wrote that any person who denies the true doctrine of Jesus Christ is “a deceiver and an antichrist” (2 John 7, 9). Thus so far, the idea of there being only “one” antichrist fails the biblical test.

There are other equally inspired statements in the Bible which parallel Paul’s expression, “the man of sin.” Prophecy also refers to this same Antichrist as the “little horn” (Daniel 7:8), the “beast” (Revelation 13:1), “the mystery of iniquity” (2 Thessalonians 2:7), and “that Wicked” (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Do all of these expressions refer to one evil person who will rise to power after the Rapture? You are about to see that they do not.

Most agree that Daniel’s “little horn,” Revelation’s mysterious “beast,” and Paul’s “man of sin,” all refer to the same thing. Daniel 7 describes four beasts: a lion, a bear, a leopard and a dragon like beast with ten horns (Daniel 7:3-7). Then comes the “little horn” out of the head of the fourth beast (Daniel 7:8). This little horn has “eyes like the eyes of a man,” “a mouth speaking great things,” and “makes war on the saints” (Daniel 7:8, 21). This is exactly what “the beast” has and does in Revelation 13:5, 7. Thus the “little horn” is the same as “the beast.” But what many fail to discern is that in Daniel 7, a beast is clearly defined as a kingdom, not a man. The Holy Word says, “...the fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon the earth” (Daniel 7:23).

The Bible doesn’t say the “little horn” is a man, but rather that it would have “eyes like the eyes of a man” (Daniel 7:8). When Paul used the expression, “the man of sin,” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, he was simply referring to the “little horn” with its “eyes like the eyes of a man.” Yet that same horn is called a “beast” in Revelation 13:1, and the Bible clearly tells us that a beast represents a great kingdom (Daniel 7:23).

A careful study of 2 Thessalonians 2 reveals the impossibility of “the man of sin,” also called to “the mystery of iniquity,” and “that Wicked,” as only applying to one man. First, “the mystery of iniquity,” although under restraint, was “already at work” in Paul’s time (verse 7). Second, it would continue all the way until the visible return of Jesus Christ at the end of the world (verse 8). Thus it cannot refer to only one man, for that man would have to be almost 2,000 years old!

Did Paul ever use the expression “the man” in any of his other writings in such a way that it does not refer to only one man? Yes. Paul wrote, “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” 2 Timothy 3:15-16. Here “the man of God” does not refer to only one Holy Man, but rather to a succession of godly men throughout history who follow the Scriptures. Paul also used the phrase, “the minister of God” (Romans 13:4) to refer to all civil officers throughout history who restrain evil. Thus, Paul’s mysterious phrase, “the man of sin,” which is the same as the “little horn,” and the “beast,” may properly refer to an actual “kingdom” with “eyes like the eyes of a man,” that is, to a kingdom cantered in a historical succession of supremely exalted men who, contrary to the Scriptures, are part of “the mystery of iniquity.”


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## blazingthru (Sep 13, 2011)

In Daniel 9:24-27 God gave a prophecy concerning the probation of Israel. Daniel 9:24 reads, “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.”

God was going to allow Daniel’s people seventy weeks to end their rebellion against God and if they failed, Israel would be rejected as a nation. The seventy weeks are prophetic time and each day represents a literal year (Ezekiel 4:6 and Numbers 14:34). So the seventy weeks would actually be a literal 490 years after which the Israelites were no longer God’s people. The seventy prophetic weeks were to begin with the decree to restore and build Jerusalem.

Daniel 9:25 “Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.”

That well known date is 457 B.C., when Artaxerxes sent out the decree. (Ezra 7:13) From that date the Jews would have exactly 490 years to stop their rebellion towards God. The 490 year probation ended in A.D. 34 and the Jews ceased to be God’s chosen people. Daniel 9:25 says that the Messiah would be anointed after the total of sixty nine of those prophetic weeks had passed by. That would be 483 years from the decree date of 457 B.C. It takes no mathematician to figure the end of that prediction. It brings us to the year A.D. 27, the very year that Jesus was baptized by John and the Holy Spirit anointed Him for His ministry. Since “Messiah” means “Anointed One,” this can only be the fulfilment of Daniel’s prophecy that the Messiah would appear in A.D. 27. Seventy weeks were assigned to the Jewish probation but Christ appeared as the Messiah after sixty nine weeks. That leaves the final and seventieth week for Christ to minister before the Jews probation ended. What was to happen in the seventieth week?

Daniel 9:27 tells us, “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.”

The “midst of the week” would be three and a half prophetic days (or 3.5 literal years) from His baptism and according to the Bible, the ministry of Jesus lasted for exactly that, three and a half years. In the spring of A.D. 31 Jesus was crucified and the veil of the temple was rent (Matthew 27:51), signifying the end of sacrifices. By His death He caused the “sacrifice and the oblation to cease.” Another three and a half years would lead up to the end of the seventy weeks and the end of Jewish probation. During that three and a half years the disciples laboured mainly for the Jews but in A.D. 34 the seventy weeks ended; Stephen was stoned after his immense speech before the council in Acts chapter 7 and the gospel began to go to the Gentiles (Acts 8:4). The Jews had rejected the gospel message and were no longer God’s chosen people just as Daniel had predicted. Now they could only be saved as individuals in exactly the same way as the Gentiles.

The seventy weeks or 490 years was the time God gave His chosen nation to end their rebellion where He would then forgive them for their transgressions. Notice how Jesus refers to this prophetic time period here in His conversation with Peter. Seventy times seven is of course 490.

Matthew 18:21 “Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Till seven times? 22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.”

So we find this false rapturist theory gets the seven years tribulation by lifting that seventieth week of Daniel’s prophecy completely out of its context and shoving it far into the future _where it is logically no longer the seventieth week_. They claim it will be fulfilled after Christ comes to snatch away the righteous secretly. They agree that the sixty nine weeks of Daniel 9:25 refer to the period before Christ’s first advent, but then they insert a 2000 year gap before the seventieth week is fulfilled. They allot 69 weeks plus 2,000 years plus one week, or a total of approximately 2,490 years. By this devious manipulation of God’s Word, the rapturist’s believe they have extended the Jewish probation and based upon this, they teach that all the Jews will be saved in a great second chance after the “secret rapture” takes place.
it takes this beautiful messianic prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27, that proves Jesus is the Messiah by predicting His coming, His baptism and crucifixion, and then applying it to the Antichrist. They do this by stating that it is Antichrist that causes the sacrifice and oblation to cease after three and a half years. But Daniel states that it is Jesus who caused the sacrificial system of the Jews to cease when He died on the cross. A misinterpretation that confuses something Christ has done and applies it to the devil instead, is certainly a tragic and blasphemous occurrence. This is however the only way they could arrive at a seven year tribulation period. How very sad.

Aslo the Covenant with the Anti Christ - 
He shall confirm the covenant.” Paul said “the covenant” was “confirmed before by God in Christ” (Galatians 3:17). Jesus Christ came “to _confirm _the promises made to the fathers” (Romans 15:8, emphasis added). In the King James Version, Daniel 9:27 doesn’t say “ _a _covenant” or peace treaty, but “ _the _covenant,” which applies to the New Covenant. Nowhere in the Bible does the antichrist make, confirm, or break a covenant with anyone. The word “covenant” is Messianic, and _always _applies to the Messiah, not the antichrist. 
“He shall confirm the _covenant _with _many. _” Jesus Christ said, “This is My blood of the new _covenant, _which is shed for _many… _” (Matthew 26:28). Behold a perfect fit! Jesus was quoting Daniel 9:27 specifically. 
“In the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.” After exactly three and a half years of holy ministry, Jesus Christ died on the cross, “in the midst of the week [in the middle of the seven years].” At the exact moment of His death, “the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom…” (Matthew 27:51). This act of God signified that all animal sacrifices at that moment *ceased to be of value*. Why? Because the Perfect Sacrifice had been offered

For the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate.” “The abomination of desolation” (see Matthew 24:15) is not a simple subject, yet we know that Jesus clearly applied this event to the time when His followers were to flee from Jerusalem before the destruction of the second temple in A.D. 70. In a parallel text to Matthew 24:15, Jesus told His disciples, “When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies [Roman armies led by Prince Titus], _then know that its desolation is near _” (Luke 21:20, emphasis added). The disciples did “see” those very events. Because of the “abominations” of the Pharisees, Jesus told them, “See! Your house is left to you desolate” (Matthew 23:38). Thus Gabriel’s statement in Daniel 9:27 about Jerusalem becoming “desolate” was perfectly fulfilled in A.D. 70.
Gabriel said that the 70-week prophecy specifically applied to the Jewish people (see Daniel 9:24). During the period of Christ’s public ministry of 3 1 / 2 years, the Master’s focus was largely upon “the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 10:6). After His resurrection and then for another 3 1/2 years, His disciples preached mostly to Jews (see Acts 1-6). After that second 3 1/2 -year period, in 34 A.D., the bold Stephen was stoned by the Jewish Sanhedrin (see Acts 7). This infamous deed marked the then-ruling Jewish leaders’ final, official rejection of the gospel of our Savior. _Then _the gospel went to the Gentiles. In Acts 9, Saul became Paul, the “apostle to the Gentiles” (Romans 11:13). In Acts 10, God gave Peter a vision revealing it was _now time _to preach to the Gentiles (see Acts 10:1-28). Read also Acts 13:46. Thus approximately 3 1/2 years after the crucifixion— and at the end of the 70-week prophecy given f or the Jewish people—the gospel shifted to the Gentiles _exactly as predicted in Bible prophecy. _


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## blazingthru (Sep 13, 2011)

Do we go through the great tribulation?

The Bible says that those who refuse the Mark of the Beast will NOT be affected by the Seven Last Plagues that come over the whole world. (Revelation 16:2) But this does not mean that we will not have to go through the time of trouble, nor that we will not be persecuted.
John 16:33 “These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”

Note again that it is no secret rapture when Jesus comes “as a thief” as the angels have just poured out six plagues on the Earth for those who received the Mark of the beast or worshipped his image. Hence we are definitely here during the tribulation as these plagues are part of God’s judgement which follows. God’s faithful ones are of course protected from these plagues.

Revelation 16:12, 15 “And the sixth angel poured out his vial (sixth plague) upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.”

*And note that the elect described in Matthew 24:22 below are God’s people and there would be no need for God to cut short the great tribulation if His people were already in heaven.*
Matthew 24:21-22 “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the *elect's sake *those days shall be shortened.”

In Daniel 3:16-28 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego were thrown into the fiery furnace but God was with them through the persecution and in this case took them safely through it. They refused to disobey God and kept His Commandments. Note how Revelation 14:12 below also talks of how those who did not get the Mark of the Beast also kept God’s Commandments. There is obviously a strong link there to obedience to God and who we Worship in regards to the Mark.

The Bible often refers to times of patience with times of suffering. Revelation 13:10 speaks of the “patient of the saints” after they endured the 1260 years of persecution from the Roman Church . Over 50 million Christians were tortured and murdered. Revelation 14:12 is the verse following the Mark of the Beast warning, and the “patience of the saints” as those who will endure through that time and still keep God’s Commandments.

Revelation 13:10 “He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.”

Revelation 14:12 “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.”

The teaching of this false, manufactured Secret Rapture and escape from persecution will be a devastating deception for Christians. Persecution and suffering have always been God’s *means of strengthening His people and producing strong character*. Here is God’s purpose in times of tribulation._* It is to build perseverance, character, trust and hope in Him.*_
*Romans 5:3-4* “And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope.”

Satan wants to impede and restrain strength and character building in Christians by getting us focused on escaping trouble and persecution instead of our preparing to go through persecution even to the point of death. Even Jesus “learned obedience by the things which he suffered.” *(Hebrews 5:8)* Jesus guarantees that if we speak His truth boldly, we will suffer persecution.

*John 15:20 *“Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.”

James 5:10 “Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. 11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.”

When these “soft” Christians are confronted with heavy persecution, they will fall like dominoes and Satan will be ecstatic and yet once again Satan’s lies will have been very successful.

*Will there be a Second Chance*?

I would imagine the answer to this question should be fairly obvious by now but let’s look at it anyway. Those who teach the secret rapture claim that during the tribulation those not raptured will be given another chance to be saved. Let it be categorically stated that absolutely nowhere does Scripture speak of any second chance, nor does the Bible anywhere speak of people being saved after Jesus comes. This is just another manmade doctrine that is indeed pleasing to the carnal heart of man and the devils intention to have those who would wait perish with Christ’s coming. The Bible in fact actually teaches the opposite. Notice these clear Scriptures; 

2 Corinthians 6:2 “(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)”

Revelation 22:11-12 “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12 And, behold, *I come quickly; and my reward is with me*, to give every man according as his work shall be.”

When Jesus comes the second time, He carries “in his hand a sharp sickle.” Revelation 14:14. This is the reaping time after sixty centuries of the sowing of the seeds of sin. This is the harvest time, and “the harvest is the end of the world.” *Matthew 13:39*. “And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.” Revelation 14:16.

*Jeremiah 8:20 *truly says, “The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.” There can be no saving after the reaping of earth’s harvest at the coming of Christ. When Jesus and His Holy angels appear, then “before him shall be gathered all nations.” Matthew 25:32. There will only be two classes in that great company. The destiny of each has been set by what he did before the coming of Christ. Let us stand firm on the *Word of God alone and reject these manmade, Satan driven, pleasing ideas that form the bulk of the whole secret rapture theory.*
The attitude of so many Christians seems to be that you should live a Holy life now so you don’t have to go through the Great Tribulation, but even if you don’t you will get another chance after this so-called secret rapture. But as we have seen in scripture and by this manufactured doctrine, when judgment comes there is no second chance. When people die in their sins they are lost forever, there is no second chance. Why should the Second Coming be any different?


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## blazingthru (Sep 13, 2011)

The Antichrist has been active since the days of Jesus Christ and is moving stronger in power again it is a system of belief and the entire world is an awe of it as the scriptures say.  

there is no secret rapture, The saints will go through the tribulation. To believe otherwise is to live a lie,  as in the Days of Noah they were warned of the rain, but since it never rained, they did not believe it and perished. As in Sodom and Gomorrah they had been warned of their in pending destruction but ignored it. During World War II prisoners did escape and tried to warn the Jews but they did not believe it, not all Jews were warned but many knew of the turn of the power and how terrible it was coming yet they remained. Before the destruction of Jerusalem Jesus himself in Matthew 24 warned them to escaped as soon as they saw the chance, and that a chance would be given them, but they did not believe that they would be destroyed and they were warned again and again.  So here we are you can choose to believe whatever you choose to believe but the proof is in the word. The word of God says now is the accepted time.  Now.... 
I decided not to post all of the prophecies that were fulfilled it was an exhausting and lengthy passages, explaining page after page, We all have access to the computer and can do the research. If you truly want to know.  
Don't follow after anyones teachings follow after the word of God. My pastor is incredible but I need to read all that he teaches myself. I have to go get advice from many sources not just one. I take notes in service I write down every scripture and then go online and follow up with even more scriptures to make sure it says what it should say.  To the OP you asked the question a year ago, I hope that are able to review the  information provided and make a good judgment with prayer and study.  when God gives a specific time or specific instructions that is was it means. You cannot take 490 years substract 7 years and put it over 2,000.00 years in the future. If its 490 years that is exactly what it is all together. He also says we  must endure to the end.  Well if he is taking us out of the world beforehand then why even bother. I just have to believe and go on with my life. Really??????  It is with fear and trembling we enter into heaven.


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## blazingthru (Sep 13, 2011)

Nymphe said:


> And no, Matthew 24 and Mark 13 have NOT been fulfilled yet.


 
Matthew 24 is several things at once. Some of the information is for the end and some is warning against the destruction of Jerusalem. The Christan's heeded this warning and fled out of Jerusalem. The Jews did not. 
*Matthew 24:13-30*

King James Version (KJV)

*13*But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (the end times)
*14*And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. ( the end times)
*15*When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand *Destruction of Jerusalem*
*then* let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: *Destruction of Jerusalem*
*17*Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: *Destruction of Jerusalem*
*neither* let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes*Destruction of Jerusalem*. 
*19*And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 
*20*But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: *both end times and destruction of Jerusalem*
*for* then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.*both end times and destruction of Jerusalem* 

*22*And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. ( the end times
*23*Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. ( the end times)
*24*For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. ( the end times)
*25*Behold, I have told you before. 
*26*Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. ( the end times)
*27*For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. ( the end times)
*28*For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. *After Jesus has come for his people this is the dead that remains here on the earth, those that die at his coming.* 
*29*Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: *Many of these things have already happen. This is not the tribulation we are looking to, this is the tribulation of the dark ages. the end of the dark ages.**30*And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Why would the tribes moan. *This is the end of time*

*Luke 21:20-24* “_And when you shall *see Jerusalem compassed with armies*, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled._”

Jesus tells us that to discover the answer to the question what is the abomination of desolation, that we should focus on the book of Daniel (Matthew 24:15). Careful study of this book reveals that the abomination of desolation can be divided into three parts. These parts are: the abomination of desolation in Daniel’s day (involving the first temple); the abomination of desolation in Jesus’ day (involving the second temple); and finally the abomination of desolation in the time of the end (involving the whole Christian Church). The issues that come into play as treated in the book of Daniel remain consistent in each of its three phases. So take careful note that they are therefore types or examples of each other


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## blazingthru (Sep 14, 2011)

If you look up the word "tribulation" in the New Testament, almost every reference applies to what true Christians go through, rather than what they escape from. 

*John 16:33 *- Jesus Christ said to His followers, "In the world YOU shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." 

*Acts 14:22* - Paul told Christians, "WE through much tribulation must enter the kingdom of God."

*Matthew 24:21,22* - Jesus said there would be "great tribulation" which His followers (the "elect") must endure. Yet for "the elects sake, those days shall be shortened." 

*Romans 5:3* - True Christians are to "glory in tribulations" because "tribulation works patience" and develops Christian character. 

*2 Thessalonians 1:4* - Paul wrote of the many "persecutions and tribulations" which "the churches of God" were enduring in the first century (Christians were thrown to the lions in the coliseum, eaten by wild dogs, burned at the stake and lit up as torches in Nero's garden).

*Revelation 1:9* - John was our "companion in tribulation." 

*Revelation 2:9* - To His church, Jesus said, "I
 know your works and tribulation…" 
*Revelation 2:10 *- Again to His church, Jesus said, "YOU
 shall have tribulation…" 
*Revelation 7:14* - God's final people "came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." They did not escape it, but endured through it, being purified.

Thus the clear biblical evidence reveals that Christians have always gone through "tribulation" and will endure tribulations until the end. Yet we need not fear what man, governments, Satan or devils can do. Jesus Christ has promised, "Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the world." Matthew 28:20.


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## makeupgirl (Sep 14, 2011)

Yes Christians will go through a tribulation. Those life challenges that we face everyday is exactly that but that is not the same as what is going to take place during those 7 years when the anti-Christ comes into power and that doesn't happen until we the body is taken out of the way.  

This Is what I feel right now. This is just plain me talking. If the bible says that we're not appointed to wrath, why not accept that?  If some want to go through the great tribulation...fine but that is not going to happen. And what if God is offended because some of his kids want to go through that terrible time? I'm sure that is a slap in the face to him. 

Besides, if someone that thinks they are a Christian is left behind; well it's probably because they truly have never trusted Christ as Lord and Savior and believed that he became flesh to die to pay the ransom for our sins. And didn't believe that he conquered death, hell, and the grave upon his resurrection.   Harsh as that probably seems it's the truth because not everyone that calls themselves Christians have a relationship with Christ.


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## blazingthru (Sep 15, 2011)

2 Peter 1:20 “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.”

Also, the book of Revelation ends with a severe warning telling us not to add or take away from the prophecies written in this book or there are very serious consequences.

Revelation 22:18-19 “For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”

If we adhere to the warning of these two scriptures then we should not go too far wrong. *These verses inform us that everything we need to know about end time events will be stated in the Bible and we will not have to add extra doctrine or our own interpretations or fill in the gaps, for we are told not to add to it.*
I totally get what your saying however, Our salvation is at risk, It is important to not hang your thoughts feelings based on someone else interpretation of the bible.  I would not risk my salvation on someone else theory. Especially since it is not true, the bible *does not indicate *the amount of time tribulation will last, but its believed to last only a few months. Just reading the Plagues and using common sense can say how long a human can last without water not seven years, barely a week. Plus with Hot Searing Scorching Sun, who can endure. the saints will be protected during these times, now imagine those who are not saved and see that the saints are not suffering as they are, do you honestly think they (the saints) would not be murdered right then and there.  The Egyptians saw that they suffered and  that the Hebrews were not affected as they were, why do you think they left with them. In my neighborhood all the lights went out. Except my house, I need electricity without it I could die. I have a medical condition. I wasn't aware of this until my neighbor wanted to know why did I have power and he did not.  This was long before the weather started getting terrible around here. I was stunned and gave God all the praise, I found out later a few houses had power as well but the way he approached me and the fact that he said  it out loud in the streets made me think about the Tribulation and my greatest hope that the lord will hide me in the hills or put me to sleep.  I hope with all my heart that those reading these post will really try hard to seek out the truth in the word of God and not have their own feelings and ideals and traditions.


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## Crown (Sep 15, 2011)

makeupgirl said:


> Yes Christians will go through a tribulation. Those life challenges that we face everyday is exactly that but that is not the same as what is going to take place during those 7 years when the anti-Christ comes into power and that doesn't happen until we the body is taken out of the way.
> 
> This Is what I feel right now. This is just plain me talking. If the bible says that we're not appointed to wrath, why not accept that?  If some want to go through the great tribulation...fine but that is not going to happen. And what if God is offended because some of his kids want to go through that terrible time? I'm sure that is a slap in the face to him.
> 
> Besides, if someone that thinks they are a Christian is left behind; well it's probably because they truly have never trusted Christ as Lord and Savior and believed that he became flesh to die to pay the ransom for our sins. And didn't believe that he conquered death, hell, and the grave upon his resurrection.   Harsh as that probably seems it's the truth because not everyone that calls themselves Christians have a relationship with Christ.


makeupgirl,
What do you think about Inquisition ?
*Do you think the saints who were murdered/killed/burned/beheaded were not Christian ?

*Concerning this topic, do you make a difference between the anger of satan (the great tribulation) and the righteous Day of the Lord, or for you it's the same?


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## makeupgirl (Sep 16, 2011)

I believe in what the bible says point blank. Also when participating in bible study I ask the Holy Spirit for the understanding of his word. Why? Because without the leading of the Holy Spirit I cannot understand the bible. One thing I believe is that we're not appointed to the wrath of God based on his word.  I go to bed at night secure in the knowledge that whether I go to the Lord in death or in the rapture, I'm going home to be with God. Absent from the body, present with the Lord. 

I also seek comfort in knowing that I cannot lose my salvation and my sonship with the Lord.  I'm one of his since the day I believed and accepted Christ in my life.  That is what we as the body should always be secured in without doubts. 

I also believe and will always believe in the pretribulation theory. Why? Because scriptures point to this. I personally don't care what others think or believe because that is between you and God alone.  I only care about the person's salvation. 

Now I'm jet lagged from my trip and just don't have the energy to further argue my point or my belief. This has been surrendered to the Lord and this is where it will stay.  Good luck to      Those that believe that you are going through the great tribulation. I bid you good luck with that. Because you will need it.


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## blazingthru (Sep 16, 2011)

God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. Therefore we will not fear, even though the earth be removed, and though the mountains be *carried into the midst of the sea*; though its* waters roar and be troubled*, though the *mountains shake with its swelling*… *Be still*, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth (Psalm 46:1-3, 10).


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## momi (Feb 24, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> Taytay86,
> I honestly don't believe that a chip has anything to do with it at all.  This is the thing that many Christians do not get, No one is willing to suffer and die just to do it. But for Christ you must be willing to suffer and Die. Whatever it takes to be obedient. We have so many examples behind us of people that gave up their lives for Christ, no matter what they had to endure including being thrown in the lions den, head cut off, cut up, burned, crucified and so on.  The buying and selling is not going to affect all Christians only true believers. True believers will not do certain things. Not ever to the point of death.
> 
> Now take Nebuchadnezzar for example. He had a certain type of music playing and everyone was to bow down to the statue or face death. Well you know hundreds of Israelites bowed down. but the true believers did not and faced death, they knew it was forbidden to bow down to a Idol of any kind. they refused and knew the consequences and was ready and willing to face the consequences. This is the attitude we who are true believers are to have. As for the chip. _*I very much doubt if that has anything to do with it. but the mark of the beast described in the scriptures is what you believe in your mind and what you do with your hands. If you believe that drinking is good and right this is something you practice and work at*_.  Same as religion if you believe this false religion and practice it with your hands then you have accepted the mark of the beast, no one can force it on you its something you except.  Same as with the seal of God. You believe and you work within that belief, However, you go above and beyond to make sure your falling after the truth and not falsehood. You walk in the light and you willingly sacrifice whatever the world considers good and wonderful you sit and discover the truth of the matter.  it really is not that hard or difficult to understand, the world makes it seem so but Christ died and rose again to prove that he has power over death so if you should die you will awake again to something so worth dying for. that is what should be in  your heart. that no  matter what it takes, you will lay down your life for Christ only to pick it up again. except perhaps when you do, you  will receive a  crown.  This is why the apostle would sing after a beating, they consider it all joy that they were found worthy to suffer for Christ.



blazingthru - I've recently heard Hank Hanegraff give this explanation of the mark as well... but I wonder how will this prevent Christians or others who do not take the mark from buying or selling?  Maybe because we would be required to engage in certain activities in order to buy and sell?  I've always interpreted it as a literal mark of some sort...


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## blazingthru (Feb 24, 2013)

momi said:


> blazingthru - I've recently heard Hank Hanegraff give this explanation of the mark as well... but I wonder how will this prevent Christians or others who do not take the mark from buying or selling?  Maybe because we would be required to engage in certain activities in order to buy and sell?  I've always interpreted it as a literal mark of some sort...



The mark itself is what you believe or practice it is not a physical thing that you can see or feel its is something that you believe in and what you practice.  God is very specific of how he wants us to worship, however most of the world follows after tradition and never question what they are doing. While as Christians we are required to do our own research, our own personal study and to compare what is said to us. For instance everything I am saying to you should be compared to the scripture, but not just one but several so that the meaning is clear.


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## Galadriel (Feb 25, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> This entire thing with Hell is not something he wants to do.  So if your thinking that people are burning in hell now as we speak, what do you think about the Character of God.  We serve a Just God. He would not have someone burning in Hell forever and his forever is not our forever its until the end of a thing.



There is a Hell.

There are souls currently in Hell.

If a soul dies in unrepentant mortal sin, it immediately goes to Hell.

One's condition in Hell is eternal and unchangeable.


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## blazingthru (Feb 25, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> There is a Hell.
> 
> There are souls currently in Hell.
> 
> ...



where is this noted in the bible?  Where is the Judgement?  They go without knowing why?  Doesn't the bible say every knee shall bow?  When does it say that? Then too the Saved, God is just and fair, he is going to send my love one to be tormented forever and not tell me why? If a soul goes to "hell" now as you say, that would make them immortal and immortality is only given to those who have believed in him and obeyed him. Only God is immortal, no other created being is immortal.  Those who are lost and those who chooses not to be saved will be punished based on their own sins. So punishing someone forever and ever would not be fair and is not what the bible says. Everlasting Punishment, death is final. Not punishing.  He would not be a fair God. This belief in Hell and burning forever comes from Pagans and many Christians believe it but if you study out the bible you will see that it is not correct at all. 

When you die, you rest in the grave, you do not go to heaven or hell you sleep in the grave.  Some will wake to the first Resurrection and some to the second resurrection. 
It is important to remember the terms you learned as you study the bible they are consistent. the bible is not designed for you to just pick up and read it without praying first and asking the Holy spirit to guide you.  Here is a great website to review and find all the questions you might have about Hell. 

http://www.helltruth.com/


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## Galadriel (Feb 25, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> where is this noted in the bible?  Where is the Judgement?  They go without knowing why?



Death is the separation of the soul and body. Upon death, the soul is immediately judged by Jesus Christ. This is known as the "particular judgment."

Hebrews 9:27 tells us that "It is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment."



blazingthru said:


> Doesn't the bible say every knee shall bow?  When does it say that? Then too the Saved, God is just and fair, he is going to send my love one to be tormented forever and not tell me why?



When Jesus Christ returns for the General Judgment, this is when it will be publicly made clear the states of souls, their glory or shame, and God's wisdom and judgment. Souls that end up in Hell are those who die unrepentant of mortal sin.



blazingthru said:


> If a soul goes to "hell" now as you say, that would make them immortal and immortality is only given to those who have believed in him and obeyed him.



Immortality is an innate quality of the soul--all souls are immortal, both of the saved and of the damned.



blazingthru said:


> Only God is immortal, no other created being is immortal.



God is immortal, yes, but immortality isn't a quality that excludes created beings. For example, God created our souls to be immortal. Another example of created beings being immortal are the angels (both the good angels and the fallen ones).



blazingthru said:


> Those who are lost and those who chooses not to be saved will be punished based on their own sins.



Hell *is* the punishment. Hell is eternal separation from God and from the Beatific Vision of seeing Him face-to-face.



blazingthru said:


> So punishing someone forever and ever would not be fair



All souls are immortal, and if an immortal soul has chosen separation from God, then to get exactly that--separation from God--is justice. Far from "unfair."




blazingthru said:


> and is not what the bible says. Everlasting Punishment, death is final. Not punishing.  He would not be a fair God.



How would it be unfair? That the damned soul is damned, or that the damnation is eternal? The damned cannot repent, just as the demons cannot repent. This is why it is of the utmost importance to preach the Gospel to the world--eternal souls are at stake.



blazingthru said:


> This belief in Hell and burning forever comes from Pagans and many Christians believe it but if you study out the bible you will see that it is not correct at all.



It is not a pagan belief, and the Bible supports it.



blazingthru said:


> When you die, you rest in the grave, you do not go to heaven or hell you sleep in the grave.
> Some will wake to the first Resurrection and some to the second resurrection.
> It is important to remember the terms you learned as you study the bible they are consistent. the bible is not designed for you to just pick up and read it without praying first and asking the Holy spirit to guide you.  Here is a great website to review and find all the questions you might have about Hell.
> 
> http://www.helltruth.com/





 Mark 9:47–48 Jesus tells us, "_t is better for you to  enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown  into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." 



And in Revelation 14:11, we read: "And the smoke of their torment goes  up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these  worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of  its name." 



 Hell is not just a theoretical possibility. Jesus warns us that real  people go there. He says, "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is  wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter  by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads  to life, and those who find it are few" (Matt. 7:13–14). 



 Christ Himself spoke of the reality of Hell more than any other figure in the Bible--a whopping 33 times does He speak on Hell. The early Church held to these teachings of Jesus. Ignatius of Antioch, an Overseer who was a disciple of John the Apostle, says:


*Ignatius of Antioch*

 "Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if  they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much  more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of  which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into  unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]). 

Clement, also a disciple of the Apostles, reiterates:


*Second Clement*

 "If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we  neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal  punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]). 
 "But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied  Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible  torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who  have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give  glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served  God with all his heart!’" (ibid., 17:7)._


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## blazingthru (Feb 25, 2013)

we already had this discussion.

Spin-Off: The Souls of the Dead I don't know how to link this site, its locked of course, I really feel that you are convinced in your own mind of your beliefs that no matter what is presented before you, you will not budge and although you posted scriptures they are not correct in the meaning you think it is, why because the bible harmonize and these scriptures are taken out of context and it will have to be a study to understand everything concerning the topic in question. It would exhaust this thread.  These text do not point to your meaning at all.  But can be misconstrued that is why we have to study the bible, not grab a scripture here or there, it raises confusion.  

First you will need to study the dead, look up all references to the state of the dead, take notes, do the same for all and finally after you have done all those things you will see that it was not as you once thought. But I have posted the truth about Hell  website. and it will answer all the questions that have been presented regarding that subject.  Each site has links to do more study.  

www.thetruthaboutdeath.com


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## Galadriel (Feb 25, 2013)

Actually I have studied. As a matter of fact I have a minor in Biblical Studies--from an Evangelical university of all places.

In any case, if one can't correctly identify what happens to the soul at death, it's going to be tough to correctly understand the other eschatological issues at hand (note: eschatology deals with the "Last Things,"--death, judgment, heaven, hell).




blazingthru said:


> we already had this discussion.
> 
> Spin-Off: The Souls of the Dead I don't know how to link this site, its locked of course, I really feel that you are convinced in your own mind of your beliefs that no matter what is presented before you, you will not budge and although you posted scriptures they are not correct in the meaning you think it is, why because the bible harmonize and these scriptures are taken out of context and it will have to be a study to understand everything concerning the topic in question. It would exhaust this thread.  These text do not point to your meaning at all.  But can be misconstrued that is why we have to study the bible, not grab a scripture here or there, it raises confusion.
> 
> ...


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