# Black women confront Chris Rock on Oprah Today



## laurend (Oct 9, 2009)

So far, a couple of AA confront Chris rock about his movie.  One lady was upset that the movie makes people assume all AA have weaves.  Chris is making good points also, so watch today.


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## mrsjohnson75 (Oct 9, 2009)

Thanks..I'll watch.


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## PeopleTalkDaily (Oct 9, 2009)

I'M GOING TO CHECK IT OUT


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## ~VicTorIAn~ (Oct 9, 2009)

I hope they slam him.


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## AllAboutMoi (Oct 9, 2009)

Oprah made an announcement to white people "Do not go up to black women and ask if they have a weave".


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## Papoose (Oct 9, 2009)

AllAboutMoi said:


> Oprah made an announcement to white people "Do not go up to black women and ask if they have a weave".


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## BostonMaria (Oct 9, 2009)

AllAboutMoi said:


> Oprah made an announcement to white people "Do not go up to black women and ask if they have a weave".



Yeah I've already had to school a few co-workers LOL 

OMG I'm going to be glued to the TV at 4:00 today. Thanks for the heads up!


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## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 9, 2009)

laurend said:


> One lady was upset that the movie makes people assume all AA have weaves.  Chris is making good points also, so watch today.




I consider myself to be a very reason/logic-based person and I, too, was concerned that MANY of his statements implied that most (if not all) African-American women wore weaves.

I'm happy he'll be "confronted" about this, though I don't expect much progress, unfortunately.  I'm not expecting him to apologize for the wrongful implications, nor do I expect him to even admit to them.  

A little OT but I just loved how Oprah took him to task when he went out on stage and immediately "accused" Oprah of not wearing her own hair  (not once, but twice). She put her finger up in the air, and let him know it was all hers.  It annoys me when people immediately assume that our hair must not be real if it looks healthy or if it's long...

But thank you for giving us the head up...


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## Renovating (Oct 9, 2009)

Things must be really different where I live, because just about every AA woman I see DOES have a weave- at work, church, grocery store, etc. It's not offensive to me, since its what I see too.


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## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 9, 2009)

One last thing...I've seen countless online forums in which Caucasian and East Asian girls are discussing weaves and posting pictures of their wigs, pieces, and tracks.  And Cindy Crawford, Claudia Schiffer, and most White celebrities have been wearing false hair for DECADES.  So has the general population.  They just don't come out about it, the way many of us do.  (Kim Zolciak, anyone?...)  And most of us just ASSUME that it must be their hair...

But they speak to White folks about fake hair as if it's some great, unknown mystery to them.  That's one of the things that annoyed me about watching Oprah with Chris Rock...


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## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 9, 2009)

authenticitymanifesting said:


> Things must be really different where I live, because just about every AA woman I see DOES have a weave- at work, church, grocery store, etc. It's not offensive to me, since its what I see too.




I actually wondered about this...if people were actually just speaking about the women where they've lived...  I'm from NY originally and many of the women in NY have considerable hair.  And even the hairstyles/techniques of choice vary according to where the woman is from or her culture.  So these blanket statements that Chris Rock makes about Black women, for me, are offensive...they don't mirror what I've seen living in New York City.  We have hundreds of Dominican salons and they are filled to the brim with sisters with long hair.  

My hair length is unimpressive in NY, but when I went to visit my sister in Texas (San Antonio), everyone assumed my hair was a weave.  (??)  

The women there suffered for lack of quality haircare products and salons, and it showed in their hair.  However, the average NY'r would be less than impressed with the amount of hair I have on my head.  They've seen more...


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## Renovating (Oct 9, 2009)

We don't suffer from a lack of quality products and salons. Some people are just lazy about hair care.


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## Daughter (Oct 9, 2009)

AllAboutMoi said:


> Oprah made an announcement to white people "Do not go up to black women and ask if they have a weave".



LOL! Good!


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## AllAboutMoi (Oct 9, 2009)

VersatileNatural said:


> I hope they slam him.


 
They didn't go hard on him in my opinion.  The ladies were commenting on him giving out our hair secrets rather than him putting the perception out there that every black woman has a weave or relaxer.  (You see a lot of real and natural hair in Chicago)  

He and Oprah both said you have to see the movie because it is not all negative or degrading to black women.


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## ceebee3 (Oct 9, 2009)

AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> I actually wondered about this...if people were actually just speaking about the women where they've lived... I'm from NY originally and many of the women in NY have considerable hair. And even the hairstyles/techniques of choice vary according to where the woman is from or her culture. So these blanket statements that Chris Rock makes about Black women, for me, are offensive...they don't mirror what I've seen living in New York City. We have hundreds of Dominican salons and they are filled to the brim with sisters with long hair.
> 
> My hair length is unimpressive in NY, but when I went to visit my sister in Texas (San Antonio), everyone assumed my hair was a weave. (??)
> 
> The women there suffered for lack of quality haircare products and salons, and it showed in their hair. However, the average NY'r would be less than impressed with the amount of hair I have on my head. They've seen more...


 
So true, I'm from Queens and I see lovely heads of hair everyday.  The only time I can tell a weave is because it obviously looks fake.

I've never worn weave, no one in my family wears weave.  Some of my friends do, but it's not the majority of people I know.


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## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 9, 2009)

authenticitymanifesting said:


> We don't suffer from a lack of quality products and salons. Some people are just lazy about hair care.



San Antonio, TX does not have much in the way of haircare salons for Black women...nor hair products.  However, my only point of comparison is New York City... I assume it's attributed to the Black population in San Antonio being relatively small. (I believe it's only at 6 percent.)


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## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 9, 2009)

AllAboutMoi said:


> The ladies were commenting on him giving out our hair secrets rather than him putting the perception out there that every black woman has a weave or relaxer.




I love how they spin this to make this look like it's "our" issue or "our" secret.  As if no one else in any other population group frequents hair weaves/wigs.  

I find the entire thing strange.  I won't be watching this film, at all.  As soon as he made that idiotic statement (on Oprah) about how Black men don't care about our hair, I immediately realized I need to tune this dude out.  Idiocy.


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## JustKiya (Oct 9, 2009)

I live in Memphis, Tn, full of black people, and around 90% of the healthy, full, below shoulder length hair I see *is* a weave, wig, or lacefront. And usually, not all that good of a weave/wig/lacefront because *I* can tell it's fake - and I'm not a ubertalented weave spotter, either. 

*shrug* NYC/the North is usually ahead of the times, fashion wise though, than the South is - I still see Jherri Curls on the regular, too!!  So, it's no surprise to me, that depending on where you live, the types of hair and styles are different.


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## Blessed2bless (Oct 9, 2009)

I believe his movie is 10 years to late...more and more AA women are wearing their natural/relaxed hair  these days... I from cali...I do not  know anyone who wear weaves (personally)... I did... for a short period when I was training for a marathon...(once)


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## JayAnn0513 (Oct 9, 2009)

AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> San Antonio, TX does not have much in the way of haircare salons for Black women...nor hair products.  However, my only point of comparison is New York City... I assume it's attributed to the Black population in San Antonio being relatively small. (I believe it's only at 6 percent.)




I agree with your original comment. It's not easy to get "quality" hair care where I live. Most of the stylist that are popular are popular because they do good weaves, or they are good that the styles that are popular here ( tacky quick weaves with the tracks showing around the edges come to mind) There are only a handful of women I see with hair that looks so good I would ask them for their stylist info.


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## robot. (Oct 9, 2009)

Dang, man.

What am I gonna eat while I watch this!? I miss everything, but I'm gonna be home today!


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## NappyMD (Oct 9, 2009)

I still think if you grow up in the ghetto, then go into the entertainment industry, the vast majority of black women you'll be exposed to will have weaves   so he might not know any better. I want to see the movie for myself. If we do have any dark secrets, it's not weaves, but how much we go through to conceal our natural texture...


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## niknakmac (Oct 9, 2009)

well i just moved from Detroit and women walking around with out at least one track is not the nor even if they have a super short cut best believe they got at least one track glued up in there.  Moving the Sc i was so impressed with the amount of hair natural and relaxed that is actually full and healthy!


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## SND411 (Oct 9, 2009)

AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> One last thing...I've seen countless online forums in which Caucasian and East Asian girls are discussing weaves and posting pictures of their wigs, pieces, and tracks.  And Cindy Crawford, Claudia Schiffer, and most White celebrities have been wearing false hair for DECADES.  So has the general population.  They just don't come out about it, the way many of us do.  (Kim Zolciak, anyone?...)  And most of us just ASSUME that it must be their hair...
> 
> But they speak to White folks about fake hair as if it's some great, unknown mystery to them.  That's one of the things that annoyed me about watching Oprah with Chris Rock...




I think most assume it's their real hair because it has the same texture as their natural hair. Think about it. Sometimes I see a black woman wear a 3C/4a/4b weave where I assumed was her natural hair. But if a non-black woman did that, people would probably assume it was a wig.


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## MrJohnsonsRib (Oct 9, 2009)

AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> I actually wondered about this...if people were actually just speaking about the women where they've lived... I'm from NY originally and many of the women in NY have considerable hair. And even the hairstyles/techniques of choice vary according to where the woman is from or her culture. So these blanket statements that Chris Rock makes about Black women, for me, are offensive...they don't mirror what I've seen living in New York City. We have hundreds of Dominican salons and they are filled to the brim with sisters with long hair.
> 
> My hair length is unimpressive in NY, but when I went to visit my sister in Texas (San Antonio), everyone assumed my hair was a weave. (??)
> 
> The women there suffered for lack of quality haircare products and salons, and it showed in their hair. However, the average NY'r would be less than impressed with the amount of hair I have on my head. They've seen more...


 

See and that is just why I don't get my panties all tangled up in this real or fake mess. Not every place, person, neighborhood, traditions are the same-Even just amongst blacks. I will definitely wear a weave for protection to my hair but that's because I'm protecting my REAL hair that I love so much...but another girl may get it to "look like somebody". I know it gets annoying ladies but we can barely get the world to agree on healthcare issues, something EVERY human deserves and we expect for folks to get the light bulb on hair politics like that ?? It's a reality that even we who know AA hair grows must face. For as long as generations are born unto ignorant role models of parents we can expect this argument to go on forever. I won't lie sometimes it frustrates me to have to tell a group of people that don't know about AA hair the truth and sometimes I am the first one to introduce myself just to gladly answer any questions...I think his quirky lil movie should shed some light on black women. At least if the movie doesn't answer all thaier questions it can prove great to do what I actually pray it does MOST, make black women (and all other women) everywhere say "Hey! You know what? I never put much thought into having a REAL understanding of my hair. I'm gonna go do that right now!" That is what I hope to hear...because then LHCF will see a flux in interest that we will have to log in constantly to help these sistas out. Now doesn't THAT sound like the kind of change we want? Don't get me wrong there are gonna be trolls but the IGNORE button is just a click away.  I love you ladies. Ya'll are smart and helpful and inspiring and no matter if the Earth floods over we would build an ark *together*--just for our products...


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## Southernbella. (Oct 9, 2009)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> I think most assume it's their real hair because it has the same texture as their natural hair. Think about it. Sometimes I see a black woman wear a 3C/4a/4b weave where I assumed was her natural hair. But if a non-black woman did that, people would probably assume it was a wig.


 
I think this is an excellent point.

If black women were wearing weaves that mimicked their actual texture (and I don't just mean natural. Relaxed black hair still has some texture), I don't think we'd be having the same discussion.

[Big generalization] Most White women wear weaves as an _extension_ of their natural hair. Most Black women wear weaves to cover up and disguise their natural hair. 

Silky straight Yaki doesn't mimic black women's hair. It just doesn't.


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## Almaz (Oct 9, 2009)

I don't know WHY white folks act all brand new when it comes to this they wear weaves exentions and fake hair prolly MORE than Black folks

http://www.ivari.com

And sometimes pay a hell of a lot more than some BW ever will to have long think locks 

Oh please


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## HairBarbie (Oct 9, 2009)

Almaz said:


> I don't know WHY white folks act all brand new when it comes to this they wear weaves exentions and fake hair prolly MORE than Black folks
> 
> http://www.ivari.com
> 
> ...


I know a lot of white women wear weaves, but I highly doubt that they are wearing weaves at an higher rate than black women.


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## Southernbella. (Oct 9, 2009)

HairBarbie said:


> I know a lot of white women wear weaves, but I highly doubt that they are wearing weaves at an higher rate than black women.


 
Right, and they aren't wearing afro textured weaves that make it obvious it's not their hair. If they were, I'd be straight clownin.


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## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 9, 2009)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> I think most assume it's their real hair because it has the same texture as their natural hair. Think about it. Sometimes I see a black woman wear a 3C/4a/4b weave where I assumed was her natural hair. But if a non-black woman did that, people would probably assume it was a wig.



Hey AfriPrincess   You raise an interesting point, but if this is the case, why do they not assume our short or mid-length hair (when permed/straightened, for example) is a weave?  Ultimately, there is an underlying assumption that Black women can't have long hair...

Even on the forums, I've seen many people attribute "long hair" to somehow being "White" (huh?).  However, I'm in Europe and I very rarely ever see women walking around with long tresses.  Even my hair (which I consider to be fairly short for NY standards) is much longer than the women I see out and about or when I'm traveling in Europe.  And in NY, the women that I typically saw with long hair that was their own (that is, those women who weren't AA) were often Mexican or PR.  I'm getting a bit off topic, though... 

Also, so many of us have assumed or claimed that folks like Jill Scott, Badu, or even Lauryn Hill are wearing weaves/wigs (whether or not they actually are and whether or not it was eventually proved or disproved).  

I think that when it comes down to it, the thing that seems to make everyone suspicious is length and thickness, regardless of texture.  

I have a problem with C. Rock clowning Black women based on stereotypes (even if the stereotype holds true for certain regions of the US).  We've got to demand better for ourselves as Black women...


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## hairsothick (Oct 9, 2009)

Southernbella. said:


> I think this is an excellent point.
> 
> If black women were wearing weaves that mimicked their actual texture (and I don't just mean natural. Relaxed black hair still has some texture), I don't think we'd be having the same discussion.
> 
> ...



Exactly.  White people get extensions with white people hair.

Black people get extensions with white ppl hair <---that doesn't work.


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## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 9, 2009)

HairBarbie said:


> I know a lot of white women wear weaves, but I highly doubt that they are wearing weaves at an higher rate than black women.




You can go to any Walgreen's (just about) and find hairpieces, phony ponies, and I've seen plenty of White girls at the BSS (especially) buying hair.  

I think this also has a lot to do with cross-cultural communication, or the lack thereof, as a blogger indicated.  At least in the US, there is very little personal contact with our vanilla counterparts, outside of the superficial.  I do believe that the majority of us simply don't have very significant relationships/dialogues with Whites to even uncover such hair habits.

My girl in Oklahoma wears clip on tracks.  So do her biker girlfriends.  They're White and rocking their tracks.  Do I believe they're a minority?  

Not at all.  

And that's solely based on my personal contact with them in the US and in Europe.  I understand that this can vary according to region (as it apparently does with our hair).


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## whitedaisez (Oct 9, 2009)

Southernbella. said:


> I think this is an excellent point.
> 
> If black women were wearing weaves that mimicked their actual texture (and I don't just mean natural. Relaxed black hair still has some texture), I don't think we'd be having the same discussion.
> 
> ...


 
hahahahahahahaaa dat is SOOO true, yet funny!


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## MissNina (Oct 9, 2009)

I think by rejecting certain stereotypes we are creating our own.

Oprah wears a weave a lot of times. I wear weaves sometimes (BSL). Just because you wear weave doesn't mean you DON'T have long hair. Some of us use it as a protective style. I know this isn't the majority, but there are some of us that do.


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## crazydaze911 (Oct 9, 2009)

I dont get home till 6:30, can someone post a link if you find it on YouTube in the future?  
TIA


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## Mizz Diamonds (Oct 9, 2009)

Southernbella. said:


> I think this is an excellent point.
> 
> If black women were wearing weaves that mimicked their actual texture (and I don't just mean natural. Relaxed black hair still has some texture), I don't think we'd be having the same discussion.
> 
> ...


 
i agree with you on the weave matching the hair texture I have worn weaves and phony pny that matches my texture and that is what I see girls on road wearing to and they even tease the phony ony clip to make it look big and "natural" looking


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## shunemite (Oct 9, 2009)

Almaz said:


> I don't know WHY white folks act all brand new when it comes to this they wear weaves exentions and fake hair prolly MORE than Black folks
> 
> http://www.ivari.com
> 
> ...


You're right. Statistically worldwide, Caucasians support the largest percentage of the world's extension supporting market. WORLDWIDE. Especially in Europe.


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## glamazon386 (Oct 9, 2009)

Okay I understand both sides of the coin so don't stone me for this comment but most of the BW I encounter in on a day to day basis are wearing weave or some type of extension.  And those that aren't either have a short hair cut or some type of short damaged hair. It's rare that I see long, healthy hair that's real. Can we really be upset at somebody presenting the truth? I know being on this board warps people but please believe we are a minority.

Yes other races wear weave and spend more money on theirs (mainly because installs cost more, they have to buy better quality hair because of constant washing, etc.) but I don't think it's as common as it is in the AA community here in the US. Nearly every white girl isn't walking by with extensions in her head. I also think their installs look more realistic and natural. Many of the installs I see on BW head are obvious, poorly done, poorly taken care of, etc. so it's more visible.


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## beans4reezy (Oct 9, 2009)

authenticitymanifesting said:


> Things must be really different where I live, because just about every AA woman I see DOES have a weave- at work, church, grocery store, etc



Just about every?

Must be a regional thing: you will find countless of long, healthy haired, Black women rocking their own hair Brooklyn, NY.

Shout out to my long haired sistahs up in Canarsie!


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## Blessed_Angel (Oct 9, 2009)

laurend said:


> So far, a couple of AA confront Chris rock about his movie. One lady was upset that the movie makes people assume all AA have weaves. Chris is making good points also, so watch today.


 
I understand his assumptions because it's so common and immensely popular. If woman assume it, why can't he? 

Go on the Wendy show with some long hair, and she'll want to feel your scalp for tracks (I've seen her do that a couple of times). She doesn't believe anyone when they say their hair is real....I don't see folks confronting her!! And I don't see her feeling white folks' scalp. 



AllAboutMoi said:


> Oprah made an announcement to white people "Do not go up to black women and ask if they have a weave".


 

And I hope they don't do a scalp test either. 



authenticitymanifesting said:


> Things must be really different where I live, because just about every AA woman I see DOES have a weave- at work, church, grocery store, etc. It's not offensive to me, since its what I see too.


 
Exactly!! I'm not offended either. 



AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> One last thing...I've seen countless online forums in which Caucasian and East Asian girls are discussing weaves and posting pictures of their wigs, pieces, and tracks. And Cindy Crawford, Claudia Schiffer, and most White celebrities have been wearing false hair for DECADES. So has the general population. They just don't come out about it, the way many of us do. (Kim Zolciak, anyone?...) And most of us just ASSUME that it must be their hair...
> 
> But they speak to White folks about fake hair as if it's some great, unknown mystery to them. That's one of the things that annoyed me about watching Oprah with Chris Rock...


 
I understand what you're saying, but I don't know any white woman who wears weaves. Alot of time it's mentioned that celebs wears weaves, but how many white woman that we work or interact with actually have it? People mainly go by what they see on a daily basis. 

Besides, the ones that are "regular" white folk that wears weaves, they less likely to tell *us*; and it's hard to tell if it's matching their hair texture. And many of us don't "look" for it in whites; it would have to be obvious for us to know. 

The difference with blacks, is that you don't have to be a celeb to wear one; many of them are wearing weaves.


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## BroadstreetBully (Oct 9, 2009)

Many black women wear weaves, but to me that doesn't matter. I'm so sick and tired of generalizations about black women making their way to the media. The media is full of generalizations about black women, show me something different for once. It's rare that one of us gets to control what images are presented to the media, at least use the opportunity to present something new and different. At least present all different angles of the issues. I don't care if most black women are rocking straight weaves, ALL aren't so why not drive that point home? All black women aren't desperate to have straight, euro hair, and many black women have their own long hair. If Chris Rock claims he did 'research' for this film, he should have come across SOMETHING about black women with long hair and presented that if he was going to be on almost every major talk show talking about our hair. 

If might be okay for some of you, but not for me. If white people were up on stage spewing out these generalizations left and right, people would have been upset. Chris Rock shouldn't get a pass either.



hairsothick said:


> Exactly.  White people get extensions with white people hair.
> 
> Black people get extensions with white ppl hair <---that doesn't work.



No, both get extensions with ASIAN hair.


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## glamazon386 (Oct 9, 2009)

BroadstreetBully said:


> Many black women wear weaves, but to me that doesn't matter. I'm so sick and tired of generalizations about black women making their way to the media. The media is full of generalizations about black women, show me something different for once. It's rare that one of us gets to control what images are presented to the media, at least use the opportunity to present something new and different. At least present all different angles of the issues. I don't care if most black women are rocking straight weaves, ALL aren't so why not drive that point home? All black women aren't desperate to have straight, euro hair, and many black women have their own long hair. If Chris Rock claims he did 'research' for this film, he should have come across SOMETHING about black women with long hair and presented that if he was going to be on almost every major talk show talking about our hair.
> 
> If might be okay for some of you, but not for me. If white people were up on stage spewing out these generalizations left and right, people would have been upset. Chris Rock shouldn't get a pass either.
> 
> ...



Or European hair... A lot of white people use European hair.


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## ricochet (Oct 9, 2009)

I wish Oprah knew about this board because we are a culture within ourselves here.  We are a culture of healthy hair care and have done the research to prove it.  Each and every one of us that has discovered lhcf.com has made the decision to say "Dang it, I am sick and tired of these bogus products, scissor happy stylists, and being a slave to the Saturday getting your hair done all day because your stylist overbooked" rituals.  We are tired of family members, friends, co-workers, telling us that black hair doesn't grow and if it does, it just means you are mixed or got that "g*** h***".  We are tired of celebrities like Tyra who try to speak "on behalf" of all us telling us WHY we wear weaves, WHY we get relaxers, WHY our hair doesn't "grow"(I hate that, our hair won't retain length people retain length!!!!), WHY black people's hair is most of the time short, etc, etc, etc...I am just tired of it.  If Oprah or Chris Rock knew of LHCF, all of these stereotypes would be put to shame.  It would take a minute, but all of them would have to quickly insert their foots in their mouths.  I have seen the curliest of the curly, coiliest of the coily and kinkiest of the kinky hair grow down backs on this board.  Okay, I gotta stop, I am getting upset.


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## naturalmanenyc (Oct 9, 2009)

When I was wearing weave, I saw more White women than Black women at Adorables in Manhattan picking up their extensions.

Extensions are more popular with White women and always have been from what I've seen. Jessica Simpson even has a line of weave....although it's not called weave but rather "extensions": http://www.hairuwear.com/jessica.aspx?pgID=997

Brittany Spears has extensions all the time, Paris Hilton, Paula Dean (who pulled out her clip in hair on the air) etc. It's not just Black women who wear weave. I heard Mike Vick's fiance on an interview being asked about her weave & she corrected the DJ saying her "extensions" as if extensions & weave are not one in the same.


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## BroadstreetBully (Oct 9, 2009)

glamazon386 said:


> Or European hair... A lot of white people use European hair.



That's a luxury for those who can afford Russian hair, which I actually think is just Indian hair that has been labeled 'Russian'. When I first heard of Indian Temple Hair I heard of it from a white site about hair extensions. 
http://greatlengths.net

If black women had access to hair that was more our texture and was affordable, we'd jump on it. Hence the popularity of Brazilian hair, which like Russian hair is probably just Indian hair labeled as something it's not.


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## naturalmanenyc (Oct 9, 2009)

Exactly!!! I have 2 White coworkers who wear fake hair. One White woman had a blonde phony pony on a few times this year (she does not hide her scrunchie well) and one White male coworker wears a lace front aka toupe every day.



AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> One last thing...I've seen countless online forums in which Caucasian and East Asian girls are discussing weaves and posting pictures of their wigs, pieces, and tracks. And Cindy Crawford, Claudia Schiffer, and most White celebrities have been wearing false hair for DECADES. So has the general population. They just don't come out about it, the way many of us do. (Kim Zolciak, anyone?...) And most of us just ASSUME that it must be their hair...
> 
> But they speak to White folks about fake hair as if it's some great, unknown mystery to them. That's one of the things that annoyed me about watching Oprah with Chris Rock...


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## Twix (Oct 9, 2009)

authenticitymanifesting said:


> Things must be really different where I live, because just about every AA woman I see DOES have a weave- at work, church, grocery store, etc. It's not offensive to me, since its what I see too.



I live in your city. I admit that I've seen a LOT of women wearing weaves since I've moved down here, but I was surprised that so many women had naturally long hair down here, too. I'm from Michigan, and a lot of people from the Detroit area went to my college. Most of them wore weaves.


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## SND411 (Oct 9, 2009)

AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> Hey AfriPrincess   You raise an interesting point, but if this is the case, why do they not assume our short or mid-length hair (when permed/straightened, for example) is a weave?  *Ultimately, there is an underlying assumption that Black women can't have long hair...*
> 
> Even on the forums, I've seen many people attribute "long hair" to somehow being "White" (huh?).  However, I'm in Europe and I very rarely ever see women walking around with long tresses.  Even my hair (which I consider to be fairly short for NY standards) is much longer than the women I see out and about or when I'm traveling in Europe.  And in NY, the women that I typically saw with long hair that was their own (that is, those women who weren't AA) were often Mexican or PR.  I'm getting a bit off topic, though...
> 
> ...



These are two really great points. I think when some people think of long hair, it somehow automatically means straighter textured hair. 

The second point I also agree with. Have you heard of RusticBeauty on youtube? She even said that some girls on the train were talking about how fake her hair was, EVEN when it was just a puff she was wearing. So I think this is also true.


----------



## glamazon386 (Oct 9, 2009)

BroadstreetBully said:


> That's a luxury for those who can afford Russian hair, which I actually think is just Indian hair that has been labeled 'Russian'. When I first heard of Indian Temple Hair I heard of it from a white site about hair extensions.
> http://greatlengths.net
> 
> If black women had access to hair that was more our texture and was affordable, we'd jump on it. Hence the popularity of Brazilian hair, which like Russian hair is probably just Indian hair labeled as something it's not.



Very true.  I can't get with some of the Asian hair on us. It's just too silky or something. There's a girl in my class who has a weave with some and the hair itself is absolutely gorgeous but the texture looks like asian hair so it stands out on a black person. It just doesn't look right. 

And in all honesty with this hair we really have no idea what we're getting. They could tell us anything and just process and put it on a weft and we'd be none the wiser.


----------



## hairsothick (Oct 9, 2009)

BroadstreetBully said:


> No, both get extensions with ASIAN hair.



White people's hair texture is a hell of a lot more similar to Asian people's texture.  So in my eyes, it's still white people hair.

Black people don't have Asian hair either so it still doesn't work.  I don't see your point.


----------



## SweetSpirit86 (Oct 9, 2009)

BroadstreetBully said:


> Many black women wear weaves, but to me that doesn't matter. I'm so sick and tired of generalizations about black women making their way to the media. The media is full of generalizations about black women, show me something different for once. It's rare that one of us gets to control what images are presented to the media, at least use the opportunity to present something new and different. At least present all different angles of the issues. I don't care if most black women are rocking straight weaves, ALL aren't so why not drive that point home? All black women aren't desperate to have straight, euro hair, and many black women have their own long hair. If Chris Rock claims he did 'research' for this film, he should have come across SOMETHING about black women with long hair and presented that if he was going to be on almost every major talk show talking about our hair.
> 
> If might be okay for some of you, but not for me. If white people were up on stage spewing out these generalizations left and right, people would have been upset. Chris Rock shouldn't get a pass either.
> 
> ...



I think you missed the point. Irregardless, it looks like their natural hair. Us? Not so much.


----------



## BroadstreetBully (Oct 9, 2009)

naturaltobe said:


> Exactly!!! I have 2 White coworkers who wear fake hair. One White woman had a blonde phony pony on a few times this year (she does not hide her scrunchie well) and one White male coworker wears a lace front aka toupe every day.



White women 'extensions' are all up and through Sally's and I've seen them in every 'white' BSS I've visited. Your average white woman is more likely to wear clip ins than get them installed because they prefer fusion which is very expensive. When I worked at a boutique, I saw many fusion installations because we were a few stores down from a salon that did them. The young white girls with $$$ were indeed getting them installed like it was nothing.


----------



## Twix (Oct 9, 2009)

sweetnikki_6 said:


> well i just moved from Detroit and women walking around with out at least one track is not the nor even if they have a super short cut best believe they got at least one track glued up in there.  Moving the Sc i was so impressed with the amount of hair natural and relaxed that is actually full and healthy!



I used to wear glue-in tracks a lot... When I moved down here I had to cut that out, though; it is too hot and WAY too humid! (that, and it was horrendous for my hair.)


----------



## jasmin (Oct 9, 2009)

This why right now I have no desire to see this movie.


----------



## almond eyes (Oct 9, 2009)

That hair could be from a corpse!!!!! or from someone's head who has eczema!!!. 

Best,
Almond Eyes


----------



## BroadstreetBully (Oct 9, 2009)

hairsothick said:


> White people's hair texture is a hell of a lot more similar to Asian people's texture.  So in my eyes, it's still white people hair.
> 
> Black people don't have Asian hair either so it still doesn't work.  I don't see your point.





SweetSpirit86 said:


> I think you missed the point. Irregardless, it looks like their natural hair. Us? Not so much.



I made my point clear. Both groups are wearing whatever hair is available to them, which is not WHITE hair. I don't know what type of installs you all are seeing, but a good install on a black woman looks no different from her own relaxed hair. Most quality extension companies offer hair that has been processed to look and feel like relaxed afro textured hair. Black women rocking their own long hair are still accused of wearing weaves. I've been asked if I'm wearing weave and my hair is natural. 

It has to do with length, and not with texture (unless she is wearing cheap, silky weave), when most black women wear their own hair straight and flowing without extensions.


----------



## HairBarbie (Oct 9, 2009)

BroadstreetBully said:


> I made my point clear. Both groups are wearing whatever hair is available to them, which is not WHITE hair. I don't know what type of installs you all are seeing, but a good install on a black woman looks no different from her own relaxed hair. Most quality extension companies offer hair that has been processed to look and feel like relaxed afro textured hair. Black women rocking their own long hair are still accused of wearing weaves. I've been asked if I'm wearing weave and my hair is natural.
> 
> It has to do with length, and not with texture (unless she is wearing cheap, silky weave), when most black women wear their own hair straight and flowing without extensions.


Seriously?

98% of black's women's hair relaxed or not looks nothing like those shinning, extra, extra straight weaves/extensions. As for those top notch, quality extensions how many bw do you think can afford those kinds of weaves/extensions? 

White hair=Blond, Red and light brunette no?


----------



## Crackers Phinn (Oct 9, 2009)

I am absolutely befuddled.

Why is it that when 'we' get the spotlight on 'us' the natural instinct is to fall back to what everybody else is doing?

I can show up in any predominantly black neighborhood in this country and see some form of fake hair.  Period.  And it's not going to be any special 'hide your healthy hair under a weave day' either. 

The reality is that weaves, wigs and relaxer are a part of the majority of AA's lives and I don't care how many waistlength naturals you know personally, the dollars spent by the black community on those products tell a different story.  

If this movie was about white womens hair I wouldn't give a damn.  I went to see it because it was about women like me, who look like me and who have the same cosmetic issues/challenges that I do.  If 'we' are going to be the biggest opponents of movies that are about us and our issues then 'we' also can't complain when nobody makes movies about us and our issues.


----------



## Twix (Oct 9, 2009)

BroadstreetBully said:


> I made my point clear. Both groups are wearing whatever hair is available to them, which is not WHITE hair. I don't know what type of installs you all are seeing, but a good install on a black woman looks no different from her own relaxed hair. Most quality extension companies offer hair that has been processed to look and feel like relaxed afro textured hair. Black women rocking their own long hair are still accused of wearing weaves. I've been asked if I'm wearing weave and my hair is natural.
> 
> It has to do with length, and not with texture (unless she is wearing cheap, silky weave), when most black women wear their own hair straight and flowing without extensions.



I think, though, that the point that people are trying to make is that in a lot of cases, relaxed hair can still tend to look like white hair, i.e., the texture that it is not. Yeah, it's clear to me when I see relaxed hair that it's chemically altered black hair, but it looks a lot more "white" than curly, kinky black hair.

Length is still an issue, yeah, I agree. But I also disgree with last notion: I don't think that most of us have our own straight, FLOWING hair sans extensions. Maybe in the Northeast/New England region it's different, but from what I can tell from the places I've lived, most black women's hair is kept at maybe just above BSL, and very rarely is it flowing, so to speak.


----------



## Renovating (Oct 9, 2009)

Crackers Phinn, I wish I could thank you 10xs for that.  Tell it!


----------



## JayAnn0513 (Oct 9, 2009)

beans4reezy said:


> Just about every?
> 
> Must be a regional thing: you will find countless of long, healthy haired, Black women rocking their own hair Brooklyn, NY.
> 
> Shout out to my long haired sistahs up in Canarsie!



it's regional....

I work in a department with 10 college educated black women. here is the hair break down. 

1. very nice hair - APL, pretty sure she's relaxed, or at least texlaxed. 
2. neck length, pretty relaxed hair. I think she keeps it cut in that style, that or her stylist is trim happy.  I just asked her who her stylist was yesterday. 
3. unhealthy neck length relaxed to death hair, wears phony pony's and bad weaves
4. unhealthy neck length, relaxed.  Thick, but ends chewed to death. 
5. 3c, relaxed, usually roller sets, has color and needs a  3-4 inch trim trim and a DC, her hair could be really really nice though. 
6. *me! *Transitioning always in a  protective style. When I do wear it straight I get asked why I always wear a bun. 
7. bad micros and wigs. i don't think she's relaxed. I've been in this department since May and I've never seen her real hair. 
8.  wigs, no idea whats under there.
9. short cut, usually looks dry and in need of a DC
10. relaxed, highlighted, broken , damaged neck length.

So there u have it. Weaves, wigs, phony pony's, one 2 people whose hair looks healthy.


----------



## Junebug D (Oct 9, 2009)

Crackers Phinn said:


> I am absolutely befuddled.
> 
> Why is it that when 'we' get the spotlight on 'us' the natural instinct is to fall back to what everybody else is doing?
> 
> ...


 
PREACH! Like it's Sunday morning PREACH, lol!


----------



## Twix (Oct 9, 2009)

Agree with the rest of the post, but this:



Crackers Phinn said:


> If this movie was about white womens hair I wouldn't give a damn.  I went to see it because it was about women like me, who look like me and who have the same cosmetic issues/challenges that I do.  If 'we' are going to be the biggest opponents of movies that are about us and our issues then 'we' also can't complain when nobody makes movies about us and our issues.



Preach on, preacher.


----------



## glamazon386 (Oct 9, 2009)

Crackers Phinn said:


> I am absolutely befuddled.
> 
> Why is it that when 'we' get the spotlight on 'us' the natural instinct is to fall back to what everybody else is doing?
> 
> ...



EXACTLY. To the bolded - You'll be damned if you do, and you'll be damned if you don't.


----------



## BroadstreetBully (Oct 9, 2009)

HairBarbie said:


> Seriously?
> 
> 98% of black's women's hair relaxed or not looks nothing like those shinning, extra, extra straight weaves/extensions. As for those top notch, quality extensions how many bw do you think can afford those kinds of weaves/extensions?
> 
> White hair=Blond, Red and light brunette no?



Shinning, extra straight extensions=bad install

That's NOT what I thought we were talking about. A black woman with long hair, be it a good install or her own will be weave checked. A white woman won't. It's not JUST about texture, it's about the assumption that all white women have naturally long hair (it does tend to be longer than ours). 

And once again I'm not sure what installs you all are seeing, but 99% of white female extensions look absolutely FAKE. I can spot them much quicker than a black install of the quality.


----------



## chiprecious (Oct 9, 2009)

Well I personally applaud Chris Rock.  Yes other races have weaves.  However, a black woman's hair rules her life unlike other races.  We wrap our hair up at night, don't let our men touch it, base our sexual positions on our hair style, avoid exercise, avoid swimming, and the list goes on.  No other race also has the majority of their women alter their texture.  
No other race has a great portion of men that think their woman's natural texture is undesirable.
No other race says uses the term GOOD HAIR!
What other race has their daughters believing they are unattractive before they even hit kindergarten because of what god gave them!!!??

We do have issues about hair as a race and he just put some of it out in the open.

GO CHRIS ROCK!


----------



## Giselle685 (Oct 9, 2009)

They only pick on black women witn weaves because they feel like we don't grow our hair and it is our only option for long hair.


----------



## BroadstreetBully (Oct 9, 2009)

Crackers Phinn said:


> I am absolutely befuddled.
> 
> Why is it that when 'we' get the spotlight on 'us' the natural instinct is to fall back to what everybody else is doing?
> 
> ...



I agree with you. I'm glad to see a movie about 'us'. I don't care about what was in the movie. I'm not happy with Chris Rock going on shows with mostly white audiences and keeping with the generalizations about our hair.


----------



## nathansgirl1908 (Oct 9, 2009)

BostonMaria said:


> Yeah I've already had to school a few co-workers LOL


  I'm sure you have.   smh
I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall at that moment.  lol


----------



## glamazon386 (Oct 9, 2009)

BroadstreetBully said:


> Shinning, extra straight extensions=bad install
> 
> That's NOT what I thought we were talking about. A black woman with long hair, be it a good install or her own will be weave checked. A white woman won't. It's not JUST about texture, it's about the assumption that all white women have naturally long hair (it does tend to be longer than ours).
> 
> And once again I'm not sure what installs you all are seeing, but 99% of white female extensions look absolutely FAKE. I can spot them much quicker than a black install of the quality.



You're right. Even when they look obvious people believe or assume it's the white woman's hair. I've seen some bad weaves on white women on tv. Britney Spears weave opening the vmas in 07 was horrible.  But I think a lot of times it's the choice of hair not so much the install. If anybody picks hair that doesn't match their texture it will be obvious and look bad. And blonde always looks 100 times worse than a dark color. I've seen some good ones done on white girls in my stylist's shop though. But he stresses the importance of buying quality hair, maintenance, etc.


----------



## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 9, 2009)

Crackers Phinn said:


> If this movie was about white womens hair I wouldn't give a damn.  I went to see it because it was about women like me, who look like me and who have the same cosmetic issues/challenges that I do.  If 'we' are going to be the biggest opponents of movies that are about us and our issues then 'we' also can't complain when nobody makes movies about us and our issues.




My problem with this movie is the way in which it has been promoted, as well as idiotic/buffoonish statements that he has made during its promotion.  

He said it best himself:  the movie was meant to be a "humorous" lens into Black (women's) hair.  

This was not meant to inspire some sort of serious, insightful dialogue amongst people of African descent.  It was meant to fingerpoint and passively mock Black women for their beauty choices and challenges.  

Personally, the minute this nitwit had the audacity to say on Oprah's show that Black men don't care about our hair (wha??), I knew it was time to ignore him.  We need to demand better for ourselves as Black women and I refuse to accept this movie as a sincere effort to inspire dialogue amongst Black women.  

Just a quote from What About Our Daughters (about a different C.Rock/Black women related topic:  

"Yes yes. It was a joke. When is it ever NOT a joke when it comes to Black women. We’re always good for a laugh and a paycheck."

I refuse to drink his buffoon Kool-Aid. Black people and Black women deserve better...

And as my SO says, this is 'further proof that Black women need to be in control of telling their OWN stories'.

EDIT:  Also, I do have a problem with him incorrectly addressing folks about it as if Black women own some sort of wig monopoly...I also have a problem with him automatically assuming that a Black woman with hair must have a weave (e.g. Oprah; he "accused" her not once, but twice)...and I would appreciate if he _didn_'t make this movie.  Regina Kimbel's treatment of My Nappy Roots would have been just fine for me.  It's too bad that her movie was not promoted heavily...I darn sure would have watched that, instead.  

I prefer to have my story as a woman, told by a woman.  Not by a man who stereotypes and mocks.


----------



## chiprecious (Oct 9, 2009)

AND!!!  I live and work in Chicago, the 3rd largest city in the US.  
I'd say 75% of the black women have weave  
Where I'm from, a large percentage of black women do wear fake hair on a daily basis.  

When I go down south to MS, it seems there is slightly less fake hair but I'd still say the scales are tipped heavily to the weavilicious.


----------



## Renovating (Oct 9, 2009)

AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> My problem with this movie is the way in which it has been promoted, as well as idiotic/buffoonish statements that he has made during its promotion.
> 
> He said it best himself: the movie was meant to be a "humorous" lens into Black (women's) hair.
> 
> ...


 

Why can't comedy inspire dialgoue? It certainly has on this board.  I didn't expect something serious, since he's a comedian.


----------



## AvaSpeaks (Oct 9, 2009)

Blessed2bless said:


> I believe his movie is 10 years to late...more and more AA women are wearing their natural/relaxed hair these days... I from cali...I do not know anyone who wear weaves (personally)... I did... for a short period when I was training for a marathon...(once)


 

Yeah but to be honest, I still see alot of natural haired women with short hair! I mean it's not like it's long, and look shrinkage aside, I'm talking women that if there hair is straighten, it should be at least APL, and I don't see it.


----------



## leleepop (Oct 9, 2009)

DVR ing it now. Thanks


----------



## AvaSpeaks (Oct 9, 2009)

chiprecious said:


> AND!!! I live and work in Chicago, the 3rd largest city in the US.
> I'd say 75% of the black women have weave
> Where I'm from, a large percentage of black women do wear fake hair on a daily basis.
> 
> When I go down south to MS, it seems there is slightly less fake hair but I'd still say the scales are tipped heavily to the weavilicious.


 
Whoa hold up there partner, I live in Chicago too and I wouldn't say the number is that high. 

We got a mixture of everything here, weaves, braids, naturals, relaxed heads, lots of stuff, dreads, whatever. 

I would say here in Chicago, most women are relaxed and the ones that are relaxed have between neck lenght and very thin collarbone lenght. Or maybe SL where it just grazes their shoulders.


----------



## bedazzled (Oct 9, 2009)

Excuse me if I upset anyone but for some reason alot of the times on LHCF I think we ladies be actin 'brand new'. I think that the smarter you get, the more knowledge you have acquired, the wiser you are, the less in touch with the 'real world' you become. Hence why very smart people aren't the biggest social bugs. So I think that a lot of our responses regarding 'why is it automatically assumed that black women are wearing weave?' is due mostly to the fact that we're on LHCF so we all know & have seen the 'real' deal with black hair (it grows, its beautiful & etc..). I don't think this supports the whole 'its regional thing' concept because prior to LHCF I'm sure a good percentage of us assumed that some black hair grew, some black hair didn't based on what we have been told. So regardless if you've seen WL black girls or not, you probably just assumed that God blessed them with a special white girl gene & left you out (atleast thats what I assumed).

I think the assumption comes from the fact that black women in general seem to struggle with getting hair to SL. I don't think it has to do with the weaves at all. I think it has to do with after the weaves are taken out. I mean think about whats 'long hair' in our community vs. 'long hair' in other communities. Most black women drool over SL hair. Sure most people in general across nations don't have WL, but I mean taking it back to the days where I knew nothing about hair care..the deal was white women (& other races) CHOSE the length they wanted, and black women were cursed with the length they had. Isn't that the mindset? White women get to choose if they want to be chewed up EL, NL, SL, MBL, WL & etc.. I mean sure now that I know better I know that black women CHOOSE where they want to be & we're not cursed..& some white women have trouble passing SL but regardless of what I know, the numbers show that there are more black women with chewed up short hair than chewed up long hair or healthy long hair... I mean it just seems to weird to me how people seem so confused on 'where people get this idea that black women always wear weaves'..I don't think its the fact that black women wear weaves but in comparison to other races even without the weave black women seem to be the one on the shorter end. I mean stereotypes don't come from nowhere, they usually come from some minuscule of truth.

#myopinion


----------



## SleekandBouncy (Oct 9, 2009)

Southernbella. said:


> I think this is an excellent point.
> 
> If black women were wearing weaves that mimicked their actual texture (and I don't just mean natural. Relaxed black hair still has some texture), I don't think we'd be having the same discussion.
> 
> ...



I agree. It's not just a situation of folks gluing similar textured hair to their heads and if it were I really don't think a big deal would be made of it.

I'm really looking forward to watching Oprah when I get home. I don't have any opinion on the situation one way or the other because I haven't yet seen the interview or the documentary.


----------



## beans4reezy (Oct 9, 2009)

Crackers Phinn said:


> The reality is that weaves, wigs and relaxer are a part of the majority of AA's lives and I don't care how many waistlength naturals you know personally, the dollars spent by the black community on those products tell a different story.
> 
> If 'we' are going to be the biggest opponents of movies that are about us and our issues then 'we' also can't complain when nobody makes movies about us and our issues.



You make a great point, but why doesn't this movie examine the complete picture? You saw the movie, I didn't...would a person walk away from this documentary with the knowledge that Black women can acheive long, healthy hair? 

Yes, many AA women wear weaves...and? Does Chris Rock think he is revealing some big secret? Why doesn't he go deeper? Why doesn't he present possible solutions or alternatives to our hair care issues?

For every woman in this documentary wearing a weave, I would like to see the other side of the coin: a Sylver2 talking about how with hard work and healthy hair care practices, she was able to acheive WL hair; contrary to popular belief.

At least a person would walk away with a meaningful learning experience. I mean, one other than, most Black women wear weaves.


----------



## Crackers Phinn (Oct 9, 2009)

AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> He said it best himself:  the movie was meant to be a "humorous" lens into Black (women's) hair.



The sheer number of 'serious' debates about hair around here that result in locked threads is enough to tell me that humor is a better approach.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I really do suspect that short of making a movie about the LHCF Feature of The Months as being the norm for black hair care that most people on hair boards wouldn't be satisfied with any movie about black hair care.  The problem is that no matter how hard we wish, that is not reality and the farthest thing from the truth.


----------



## jry2lnghair (Oct 9, 2009)

I don't think it most visible on BW.  I just think they look much closely to BW that have hair longer @ should lenght and beyond.


----------



## chiprecious (Oct 9, 2009)

AvaSpeaks said:


> Whoa hold up there partner, I live in Chicago too and I wouldn't say the number is that high.
> 
> We got a mixture of everything here, weaves, braids, naturals, relaxed heads, lots of stuff, dreads, whatever.
> 
> I would say here in Chicago, most women are relaxed and the ones that are relaxed have between neck lenght and very thin collarbone lenght. Or maybe SL where it just grazes their shoulders.


 
Ok..I'll take it down from 75% to 65%...It's still say more than half.


----------



## CurlyMoo (Oct 9, 2009)

naturaltobe said:


> When I was wearing weave, I saw more White women than Black women at Adorables in Manhattan picking up their extensions.
> 
> Extensions are more popular with White women and always have been from what I've seen. Jessica Simpson even has a line of weave....although it's not called weave but rather "extensions": http://www.hairuwear.com/jessica.aspx?pgID=997
> 
> Brittany Spears has extensions all the time, Paris Hilton, Paula Dean (who pulled out her clip in hair on the air) etc. It's not just Black women who wear weave. I heard Mike Vick's fiance on an interview being asked about her weave & she corrected the DJ saying her "extensions" as if extensions & weave are not one in the same.


 
Extensions is just a more elegant way of saying it.


----------



## JollyGal (Oct 9, 2009)

I wish I could see this.

Please report back with the juicy details.

TIA


----------



## Naturel (Oct 9, 2009)

naturaltobe said:


> When I was wearing weave, I saw more White women than Black women at Adorables in Manhattan picking up their extensions.
> 
> Extensions are more popular with White women and always have been from what I've seen. Jessica Simpson even has a line of weave....although it's not called weave but rather "extensions": http://www.hairuwear.com/jessica.aspx?pgID=997
> 
> Brittany Spears has extensions all the time, Paris Hilton, Paula Dean (who pulled out her clip in hair on the air) etc. It's not just Black women who wear weave. I heard Mike Vick's fiance on an interview being asked about her weave & she corrected the DJ saying her "extensions" as if extensions & weave are not one in the same.


 
This is true.  Many white ladies wear extension and nobody notice   But every black woman with extension is spoted.


----------



## Crackers Phinn (Oct 9, 2009)

beans4reezy said:


> You make a great point, but why doesn't this movie examine the complete picture? You saw the movie, I didn't...*would a person walk away from this documentary with the knowledge that Black women can acheive long, healthy hair?*



No.  But to be fair, outside of hairboards, where is that information readily available?  The average licensed hair stylist would be hard pressed to confirm that black women can achieve long(by hairboard standards), healthy hair . 



beans4reezy said:


> For every woman in this documentary wearing a weave, I would like to see the other side of the coin: a Sylver2 talking about how with hard work and healthy hair care practices, she was able to acheive WL hair.



Here's the problem as I see it.  In any given black neighborhood, you will find 20 weave wearers (maybe more) to every Sylver2 you find so there can't be a balanced reality based conversation.  I wish it were otherwise but it's just not.

If you think about it, if Sylver2 was the norm, weave would not be as big a business as it is.


----------



## Kranbery (Oct 9, 2009)

Uh-oh. This will be good.


----------



## Kurlee (Oct 9, 2009)

one thing i'm not feeling is that NO one is talking about the fact that black women DOOOOO have long hair.


----------



## Junebug D (Oct 9, 2009)

beans4reezy said:


> You make a great point, but why doesn't this movie examine the complete picture? You saw the movie, I didn't...would a person walk away from this documentary with the knowledge that Black women can acheive long, healthy hair?
> 
> Yes, many AA women wear weaves...and? Does Chris Rock think he is revealing some big secret? Why doesn't he go deeper? Why doesn't he present possible solutions or alternatives to our hair care issues?
> 
> ...


 
He filmed what he knows. He picked up his camera, did the work and made the film he wanted to make. I'm not mad at his effort. If you have in mind the film you want to see, it may be time to do the Tyler Perry hustle and go out there and make a better film.  You can't expect him to present a fair (to you) and balanced (to you) 2 hour film that addresses every side of the coin.


And truth be told, Shaquisha in the hood probably still would object to a film with somebody like Sylver2 in it saying that anybody can have hair like that. Because that's not their reality and they will be offended by someone light & long-haired saying they & their family & friends are all simply lazy or not smart enough. They'll be tracing her bloodline back until they find the distant Indian relative to prove their case. And then Tyra will do a show saying how the movie may have presented a false image because this girl has an ancient Indian ancestor, and so forth.  Unfortunate, but likely to be true.


----------



## Harina (Oct 9, 2009)

crazydaze911 said:


> I dont get home till 6:30, can someone post a link if you find it on YouTube in the future?
> TIA



Yes, PLEASE someone post this. I hate having to miss all of these shows.



beans4reezy said:


> Just about every?
> 
> Must be a regional thing: you will find countless of long, healthy haired, Black women rocking their own hair Brooklyn, NY.
> 
> Shout out to my long haired sistahs up in Canarsie!



NY is on another level in the hair game. I saw so many heads of healthy natural hair. I really think in about 10 years this weave/fake hair game will have died out. It really only picked up in the 90s. It's an era just like anything else and I think its predominance will pass. I know it will have for me. Occasionally, I'll put some braids in but not all year long. 



beans4reezy said:


> You make a great point, but why doesn't this movie examine the complete picture? You saw the movie, I didn't...would a person walk away from this documentary with the knowledge that Black women can acheive long, healthy hair?
> 
> Yes, many AA women wear weaves...and? Does Chris Rock think he is revealing some big secret? Why doesn't he go deeper? Why doesn't he present possible solutions or alternatives to our hair care issues?



Ummm, because that wouldn't be as entertaining. He's a comedian. There was an interview of him on youtube, and he kept on making jokes about how  
they should direct the serious stuff to Soledad O'brien. He's a comedian not a scholar of african american hair. 



AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> You can go to any Walgreen's (just about) and find hairpieces, phony ponies, and I've seen plenty of White girls at the BSS (especially) buying hair.
> 
> I think this also has a lot to do with cross-cultural communication, or the lack thereof, as a blogger indicated.  At least in the US, there is very little personal contact with our vanilla counterparts, outside of the superficial.  I do believe that the majority of us simply don't have very significant relationships/dialogues with Whites to even uncover such hair habits.
> 
> ...



When I was in ireland. There was the store called Penny's which is basically a ridiculously cheap department store  that everyone goes to. And downstairs near the purses and the belts was a fake hair section, they had extensions and clip ons and I think there wese some fake ponies. I was like omg.! Then sometimes my roommates who were all Irish would leave their fake hair on the table. GHETTO! I walked in one day and it smelled like hair salon, you know that smell. I had no idea they were into the fake hair game.


----------



## SweetSpirit86 (Oct 9, 2009)

Kurlee said:


> one thing i'm not feeling is that NO one is talking about the fact that black women DOOOOO have long hair.



A large part of me agrees with this. Though I think the reason it's not being brought up is because as a general consensus you don't see it. Or when you do, most assume it's a weave anyways. :/ 

To be completely honest, there are a ton of things we can sit here and nitpick, fuss, and whine about, but in the end I still think the biggest goal was achieved. This movie indeed got us to talk about the issues. Those of us who are on hair boards have more knowledge about this because we have SEEN it. However, how many of the entire population do we represent? I think we'd be lucky to say we represent 2-5%. With that aspect, I think some of us can appreciate what the movie's done.

THIS:


> Ummm, because that wouldn't be as entertaining. He's a comedian. There was an interview of him on youtube, and he kept on making jokes about how
> they should direct the serious stuff to Soledad O'brien. He's a comedian not a scholar of african american hair.


----------



## loved (Oct 9, 2009)

Oh boo hoo. A lot of black women do wear weaves & he is a comedian.


----------



## CurlyMoo (Oct 9, 2009)

Riverrock said:


> Yes, PLEASE someone post this. I hate having to miss all of these shows.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
They were flat ironing that fake hair.


----------



## dyh080 (Oct 9, 2009)

authenticitymanifesting said:


> We don't suffer from a lack of quality products and salons. Some people are just lazy about hair care.


 

I agree ....if the presence or lack of quality products was the issue then all women having access should have nice hair and vice versa.  Besides, everyone has or should have access to internet ordering.


----------



## jamaraa (Oct 9, 2009)

One thing that sticks out here is how segregated so many folks are who don't know either Whites or Asian people on an intimate basis. If you've been in some Asian heads, you'll know that the hair is hardly the same as White hair....it's far coarser, heavier, and thicker and would look strange on their heads untreated. *Those "extensions" WW buy are treated, just like the more natural textured ones marketed to Blacks.*

The main diff between WW w/ weaves and Blacks is they simply spend more money for better hair and a better install. They usually have them maintained better too. Many of them dye the tracks to blend w/ their hair color better. In short, just because you can't tell they are wearing a weave doesn't mean they aren't....they simply get better "extensions" and care for them to the max.


----------



## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 9, 2009)

Crackers Phinn said:


> Here's the problem as I see it.  In any given black neighborhood, you will find 20 weave wearers (maybe more) to every Sylver2 you find so there can't be a balanced reality based conversation.  I wish it were otherwise but it's just not.




I think that the main difficulty here is that all of us are from different regions of the earth and/or the US and what is the "norm" varies according to the city/region (whether or not we're willing to face this).  

What is the norm to someone in one area is not necessarily the norm for another  person living in another area.  However, as does the rest of society, we address our own experiences with sweeping statements and stereotypes (some here have implied that all Black women have kinky hair...I've seen plenty with wavy hair, straight hair, and the like, _as well as_ coily/kinky sisters).  

Where weaves are an overwhelming majority in one area, where I'm from, natural hair is crazy common, as is "real hair" that is straightened...and both of these "groups" often have long hair that dwarfs my own (I can only speak for my area).  

However, I do understand that for many sisters on this board, their experience is quite different.  

Yet again, a one-dimensional, stereotypical view of Black women is being proposed as the "comedic gospel" of the Black experience.


----------



## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 9, 2009)

jamaraa said:


> One thing that sticks out here is how segregated so many folks are who don't know either Whites or Asian people on an intimate basis. If you've been in some Asian heads, you'll know that the hair is hardly the same as White hair....it's far coarser, heavier, and thicker and would look strange on their heads untreated. *Those "extensions" WW buy are treated, just like the more natural textured ones marketed to Blacks.*



YES!!!  I was thinking to myself earlier...I just didn't know how to articulate it.  Thanks for pointing this out.


----------



## anon123 (Oct 9, 2009)

shunemite said:


> You're right. Statistically worldwide, Caucasians support the largest percentage of the world's extension supporting market. WORLDWIDE. Especially in Europe.



Do you have any stats for this?  There is a lot of fake hair all over the continent of Africa.



shan_2001 said:


> He filmed what he knows. He picked up his camera, did the work and made the film he wanted to make. I'm not mad at his effort. If you have in mind the film you want to see, it may be time to do the Tyler Perry hustle and go out there and make a better film.  You can't expect him to present a fair (to you) and balanced (to you) 2 hour film that addresses every side of the coin.



But isn't it his job as someone doing a documentary to present more than what he knew when he first decided to do the project? I wish I would turn in my dissertation with what I knew when I first started and give it to my professors like "well, it's what I know" *kanyeshrug*   But I guess Chris is no serious researcher.  But I worry that people will view this movie as though it is up to real researcher standards.

I, too, would wish that he would explore more than fake hair and relaxed hair.  If 70% of AAs relax their hair, what of the other 30%?  They aren't the majority, but if they are 30% of the group you are studying, couldn't they warrant at least 10% of your documentary time?  Maybe "documentary" is the wrong word for this.  And maybe I'm being unfairly harsh, since other documentaries (Michael Moore's for examples) aren't necessarily balanced.

Anyway, I do plan to see it because I do want to support even his attempt to make a movie about us, though his efforts may not live up to my scientific stadards.   I am concerned that he's using black women as something for other people to laugh at, though.  

btw, I thought there was a difference between extensions and weaves.  As far as I'm concerned, I've never worn a weave in my life.  I've had braided extensions, though.


----------



## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 9, 2009)

beans4reezy said:


> Just about every?
> 
> Must be a regional thing: you will find countless of long, healthy haired, Black women rocking their own hair Brooklyn, NY.
> 
> Shout out to my long haired sistahs up in Canarsie!




YES, girl, I'm from NY (born and raised) and for me, what you mentioned above (long, healthy haired Black women rocking their own hair) is the norm.  

This is further proof that we really have way too many sweeping statements made about us as Black women (sometimes, we even do it to ourselves). 

I used to get my hair done in Canarsie, too, at Lopez Beauty.  10 or 20 dollars for a fly wrap and set...loved it!


----------



## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 9, 2009)

mwedzi said:


> Do you have any stats for this?  There is a lot of fake hair all over the continent of Africa.




I meant to quote the comment about the fake hair in Europe amongst our vanilla counterparts;  I was surprised at how common extensions are here.


----------



## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 9, 2009)

mwedzi said:


> I am concerned that he's using black women as something for other people to laugh at, though.




This is why I won't be in line at all for his mockumentary.


----------



## Junebug D (Oct 9, 2009)

mwedzi said:


> Do you have any stats for this? There is a lot of fake hair all over the continent of Africa.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
The point was that he made the film that he wanted to make. I probably shouldn't have said he filmed what he knew, because he stated that before he started doing his research, he didn't know what was going on in India about the fake hair market, etc. So his film wasn't without research. He picked the aspects that were interesting/funny/worth looking at to him and he made the film he wanted to make.  

Just like if you do a research paper, you pick an aspect of the topic that you wish to go in depth about. You can make a sloppy paper that talks about every aspect of matter, for instance, or you can hone in on a few aspects and make a more concise, coherent paper.  And I believe folks are giving him a good grade on that, at least.


----------



## Harina (Oct 9, 2009)

shan_2001 said:


> The point was that he made the film that he wanted to make. I probably shouldn't have said he filmed what he knew, because he stated that before he started doing his research, he didn't know what was going on in India about the fake hair market, etc. So his film wasn't without research. He picked the aspects that were interesting/funny/worth looking at to him and he made the film he wanted to make.
> 
> Just like if you do a research paper, you pick an aspect of the topic that you wish to go in depth about. You can make a sloppy paper that talks about every aspect of matter, for instance, or you can hone in on a few aspects and make a more concise, coherent paper.  And I believe folks are giving him a good grade on that, at least.



Thank you. Could you imagine if he put every single aspect of Black hair in? It would be a four part miniseries. People would not being watch that.


----------



## laurend (Oct 9, 2009)

I don't know if this is true or not but my girlfriend just told me about what Chris is going to bring up in part 2.  If he does all hell is going to break loose in the LHCF community here.


----------



## Junebug D (Oct 9, 2009)

Riverrock said:


> Thank you. Could you imagine if he put every single aspect of Black hair in? It would be a four part miniseries. People would not being watch that.


 
Exactly. Part 1 would have to go in depth about our ancestors in Africa. Parts 2 & 3 would require an in-depth discussion about slavery and Jim Crow.  (And you know how black folks feel about those "slavery movies" ).  And then you would finally get around to hair texture and relaxers and Sylver2 after half the race is tuned out already.


----------



## Tarae (Oct 9, 2009)

Watching now.
 @ this woman who wrote in that said YT women's hair is basically an advantage and it's why they get our men.

My goodness.  I didn't know it went _there._.


----------



## Duff (Oct 9, 2009)

OH HELL NAW!!!  I cant look at this!!! it's pissing me off.  come on.....


----------



## BlkOnyx488 (Oct 9, 2009)

well I go "Nappy hair" and I go one of the yt women's man LOL
Shirley was serious
I fell out when he said she need a man



Tarae said:


> Watching now.
> @ this woman who wrote in that said YT women's hair is basically an advantage and it's why they get our men.
> 
> My goodness. I didn't know it went _there._.


----------



## anon123 (Oct 9, 2009)

shan_2001 said:


> The point was that he made the film that he wanted to make. I probably shouldn't have said he filmed what he knew, because he stated that before he started doing his research, he didn't know what was going on in India about the fake hair market, etc. So his film wasn't without research. He picked the aspects that were interesting/funny/worth looking at to him and he made the film he wanted to make.
> 
> Just like if you do a research paper, you pick an aspect of the topic that you wish to go in depth about. You can make a sloppy paper that talks about every aspect of matter, for instance, or you can hone in on a few aspects and make a more concise, coherent paper.  And I believe folks are giving him a good grade on that, at least.



That is quite true. If he meant to do a project on weaves and relaxers, he sure did do it! (I assume, haven't seen it yet).  If he meant to do one on "black hair in America", well, I don't know.  I'd have to see it.  Just like if I write my dissertation about double object constructions, even though I focus on benefactive applicatives, it would be remiss of me to not even mention that the language allows causative and locative double object constructions, even though I'm not going to focus on them.   Anyway, I'm open to hearing what he has to say, and I will go see it.


----------



## Harina (Oct 9, 2009)

laurend said:


> I don't know if this is true or not but my girlfriend just told me about what Chris is going to bring up in part 2.  If he does all hell is going to break loose in the LHCF community here.





Tarae said:


> Watching now.
> @ this woman who wrote in that said YT women's hair is basically an advantage and it's why they get our men.
> 
> My goodness.  I didn't know it went _there._.



I'm so mad I'm missing this  For real?  I love how people have attributed hair (usually straight) to being what makes a woman a woman not , oh, say having breasts and the ole baby canal. Unfotunately,though, there might be some truth to that.  Because nothing else could explain some of the handsome black men I've seen with some of the plainest, pilgrimieest looking  faces.


----------



## BostonMaria (Oct 9, 2009)

I am watching it right now


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## BostonMaria (Oct 9, 2009)

I am in love with Oprah's hair


----------



## dontspeakdefeat (Oct 9, 2009)

Good point Chris. He says that we worry too much about what yt people think about us.


----------



## charmtreese (Oct 9, 2009)

^^^^^me too (in loved with Oprah's hair)


----------



## Tarae (Oct 9, 2009)

I really don't get the big deal.  I don't know why these women are mad at Chris for telling our "secret".

I'm with Chris on this one.  Stop caring about what white women think of you.


----------



## Crackers Phinn (Oct 9, 2009)

mwedzi said:


> I, too, would wish that he would explore more than fake hair and relaxed hair.  If 70% of AAs relax their hair, what of the other 30%?  They aren't the majority, but if they are 30% of the group you are studying, couldn't they warrant at least 10% of your documentary time?  Maybe "documentary" is the wrong word for this.



I didn't want to 'give away' parts of the movie before folks got a chance to see it, but there is a short segment where he interviews 4 college students 1 natural 3-relaxed, 2 wearing their own hair only and 2 with weaves. It is a rather blunt no holds barred discussion, but it is also brief.  

I'm not necessarily talking to you M. but this whole discussion reminded me of when the Davinci Code came out and folks refused to see it but still wanted to comment on how horrible it was.


----------



## LisaLisa1908 (Oct 9, 2009)

sweetnikki_6 said:


> well i just moved from Detroit and women walking around with out at least one track is not the nor even if they have a super short cut best believe they got at least one track glued up in there.  Moving the Sc i was so impressed with the amount of hair natural and relaxed that is actually full and healthy!



Interesting.  I've lived in the Detroit area almost my whole life and I see a LOT of long pretty healthy hair that's not weaved, including my own.  But there is a lot of weave in the D.  Guess it's all in where you are.

I'm off Chris Rock and this whole "Good Hair" thing because I can't take him seriously.  I don't care if Oprah is trying to lend his documentary some credibility, he's just not the source I'd use for this issue.  *shrugs*


----------



## andromeda (Oct 9, 2009)

chris rock is being a real bull artist and oprah is going for the okey doke.  i don't like the letter that was chosen and how she chose to read it. i wish they could've gotten a more articulate audience member to speak but I applaud the young lady for her conviction.


----------



## chiprecious (Oct 9, 2009)

Kurlee said:


> one thing i'm not feeling is that NO one is talking about the fact that black women DOOOOO have long hair.


 
ITA!!!!!!  Even with Oprah.  He didn't beleive it was her hair until he did multiple weave checks.  It's almost reinforcing the ignorance.


----------



## YankeeCandle (Oct 9, 2009)

Riverrock said:


> When I was in ireland. There was the store called Penny's which is basically a ridiculously cheap department store that everyone goes to. And downstairs near the purses and the belts was a fake hair section, they had extensions and clip ons and I think there wese some fake ponies. I was like omg.! Then sometimes my roommates who were all Irish would leave their fake hair on the table. GHETTO! I walked in one day and it smelled like hair salon, you know that smell. I had no idea they were into the fake hair game.


 
I love you for posting this! Fascinating and entertaining.  So many times, I find that many of us in the U.S. have such a limited view of the world (due to geographic distance; education system, etc). "White people" here are NOT exactly like European people in other parts of the world. Ditto African-ancestry folks. I was lucky enough to travel and see this stuff for myself because of my family abroad, but it's fun to read about here, too!


----------



## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 9, 2009)

rosa praeclara said:


> chris rock is being a real bull  artist and oprah is going for the okey doke.  i don't like the letter that was chosen and how she chose to read it. i wish they could've gotten a more articulate audience member to speak but I applaud the young lady for her conviction.




Thank you, and THANK YOU.  




chiprecious said:


> ITA!!!!!! Even with Oprah. *He didn't beleive it was her hair until he did multiple weave checks. It's almost reinforcing the ignorance.*



Why more of us are not offended by that *** is beyond me.  I'm praying that one day more sisters will start recognizing this sort of passive deprecation...


----------



## Bint Yusef (Oct 9, 2009)

Ive been reading a lot of commentary on about this doc and I think the patriarchal argument and BM's influence on BW's hair decisions is a much better angle to discuss Rock's credibility in making this film than the "3 of us have long hair and white women wear weave to argument" which is definitely straw man and not based in reality.


----------



## laurend (Oct 9, 2009)

laurend said:


> I don't know if this is true or not but my girlfriend just told me about what Chris is going to bring up in part 2. If he does all hell is going to break loose in the LHCF community here.


 

I don't  know if this is true or not but in part 2, he said he is going to bring up that black women need to get over the long hair thing because it not plausible.  It's genetics so get over it.  I hope this isn't true.


----------



## natalie20121 (Oct 9, 2009)

I don't think this "documentary" was meant to be ground breaking or anything. I think it was meant as a comedy. I don't think his point was to educate america on black women and our hair. He's a comedian. That's what he does. I'm not sure why everyone is taking this so seriously. Everyone has there own opinion and personally I have lived in many states and majority of the time I was one of the few women who didn't wear a weave. Many women do it wether they have hair or not and I don't think anything is wrong with it. We really shouldn't care what white women think. Many white women are wearing weaves today to creat body and length. It's just not that serious. I love Chris Rock


----------



## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 9, 2009)

YankeeCandle said:


> I love you for posting this! Fascinating and entertaining.  So many times, I find that many of us in the U.S. have such a limited view of the world (due to geographic distance; education system, etc). "White people" here are NOT exactly like European people in other parts of the world. Ditto African-ancestry folks.




I nearly leapt out of my chair when I read this.  Thank you for saying this...it's true, we are truly limited by our borders (both domestic and international) and we tend to think what is our own "truth" must also be the case for everyone else. (I think we tend to do this as human beings.)

When I tell people in the US (non-Whites) that our European friends are not like Whites in the US, they seem to have a really difficult time accepting that...it's strange.  However, my European friends are quick to point out that they're not at all the same, lol, and their feathers would be completely ruffled if we tried to group them with our vanilla counterparts in the US.  

It's interesting.


----------



## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 9, 2009)

laurend said:


> I don't  know if this is true or not but in part 2, he said he is going to bring up that black women need to get over the long hair thing because it not plausible.  It's genetics so get over it.  I hope this isn't true.



I almost admire him for his drive...he's certainly willing to tap dance for that money...no words.


----------



## Harina (Oct 9, 2009)

AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> I nearly leapt out of my chair when I read this.  Thank you for saying this...it's true, we are truly limited by our borders (both domestic and international) and we tend to think what is our own "truth" must also be the case for everyone else. (I think we tend to do this as human beings.)
> 
> When I tell people in the US (non-Whites) that our European friends are not like Whites in the US, they seem to have a really difficult time accepting that...it's strange.  However, my European friends are quick to point out that they're not at all the same, lol, and their feathers would be completely ruffled if we tried to group them with our vanilla counterparts in the US.
> 
> It's interesting.



Omg, I found this to be true. Sometimes I was under the impression that they thought that yt americans were a completely different race.


----------



## French Rouge (Oct 9, 2009)

The whole it's a secret sentiment is such BS. The women who couldn't believe that it was Oprah's hair need to step outside of their box. Bottome line is, Chris Rock put relaxers and weaves on blast. My concern centers around the stereotyping that goes on in the movie trailer. I'm not interested in being grouped with folks whose hair concerns have nothing to do with me. Whether Oprah agree's or not their is a whole host of white people who will think that only Oprah can have long hair because of $$. I would have liked Oprah to bring on some blk women with hair below their shoulders, sweeping their brastraps.


----------



## Bachelorette (Oct 9, 2009)

I would assume those doing the protective styling with weaves or wigs challenge must feel like crap upon reading this thread


----------



## anon123 (Oct 9, 2009)

Bint Yusef said:


> Ive been reading a lot of commentary on about this doc and I think the patriarchal argument and *BM's influence on BW's hair decisions *is a much better angle to discuss Rock's credibility in making this film than the "3 of us have long hair and white women wear weave to argument" which is definitely straw man and not based in reality.



That has been brought up in some of the threads, too.  But it's likely that he thinks BM do not have any real influence on BW's hair decisions.  From the interview I saw, he thinks black women don't care much BM think, and also that BM don't care about hair at all.  He said this immediately after damn near having a heart attack and wetting himself over Oprah's hair.


----------



## Mizz Diamonds (Oct 9, 2009)

Tarae said:


> Watching now.
> @ this woman who wrote in that said YT women's hair is basically an advantage and it's why they get our men.
> 
> My goodness. I didn't know it went _there._.


 
OMG Jesus take the wheel (yeah I'm stealing Bossip little cacthphrase)
Someone is deluded


----------



## mnemosyne (Oct 9, 2009)

I don't know why the people from NY are acting like they don't see at least 2-3 weaved heads for every long natural out there. Not to mention the short micro ponies, the phony pony unknowns, the apl but thinned out from brushing against their clothing relaxed heads,   the LF divas, the regular ol wig wearing women, the kool aid red mixed with 1b microbraids and whatnot.

I feel like we're not even on the same subway system if you state otherwise.

Yes, even in NYC. and the weaves here that _are_ on point are very, very good. The rest... *shrug*

I see plenty of huge curly fro'd, bantu knotted out, dreads down to there, simple high ponytail, protective styling, wild and free, bumped and set natural/relaxed heads out there too, don't get me wrong. You'd just have blinders on NOT to notice the other heads out there.


----------



## BlackMasterPiece (Oct 9, 2009)

mwedzi said:


> That has been brought up in some of the threads, too. But it's likely that he thinks BM do not have any real influence on BW's hair decisions. From the interview I saw, he thinks black women don't care much BM think, and also that BM don't care about hair at all. He said this immediately after damn near having a heart attack and wetting himself over Oprah's hair.



He hopped outta his seat and weave checked her three times exclaiming "WOW" "Thats been all you all these years!?!?! That Stedman is a lucky man!!!" but no, BM don't care about us havin long har thats our own....... let's keep it 100% Chris


----------



## Mizz Diamonds (Oct 9, 2009)

laurend said:


> I don't know if this is true or not but in part 2, he said he is going to bring up that black women need to get over the long hair thing because it not plausible. It's genetics so get over it. I hope this isn't true.


 
I hope not or some of Nikos' cousin may need to have a family reunion on either Oprah or Tyra's show but let's just hope it dosen't have to come to that


----------



## almond eyes (Oct 9, 2009)

I was embarassed over the first letter that Oprah read trying to sound more ethnic to get the point across. But what was embarassing was the fact that the writer said that white women had an advantage over black women because of the hair especially with the black men who coveted in her words "silky hair", now for Oprah to even allow herself to read such a letter was really a shock because it gives the impression that all black women feel this way. 

Second that the black women in the audience did not believe it was Oprah's hair and Oprah let them do a weave check during the commercials. Will people now feel it's okay to demand to do weave checks? And shame on the black women, it came off very poorly. 

Chris Rock saying that he has never been a degrader of women. Maybe he has changed but in 1991, that comedy act was mostly about black women (focusing on their weight and hair), so he can try and re-package himself all he wants. I was in the audience and I walked out then and I usually find most things silly and funny. 

When asked by the black women about her hair, Oprah said it was because she has a hairdresser. I mean come-on are black women incapable of growing long hair without a hairdresser? 

Oprah these days is just winging her shows now, not as prepared as she used to be.

Best,
Almond Eyes


----------



## Mizz Diamonds (Oct 9, 2009)

Bachelorette said:


> I would assume those doing the protective styling with weaves or wigs challenge must feel like crap upon reading this thread


 
Off Topic your siggy is so cute and funny


----------



## wild curls raquelle (Oct 9, 2009)

AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> I love how they spin this to make this look like it's "our" issue or "our" secret.  As if no one else in any other population group frequents hair weaves/wigs.
> 
> I find the entire thing strange.  I won't be watching this film, at all.  As soon as he made that idiotic statement (on Oprah) about how Black men don't care about our hair, I immediately realized I need to tune this dude out.  Idiocy.



Irony I saw two WW in the BSS yesterday checking out wigs meanwhile I'm buying supplies for my natural tresses I automatically thought about LHCF. Anyways when I lived in GA I had quite a few white friends buying weave. I've never been in a situation where anybody has really asked me about weave. I honestly feel a bit uncomfortable when people ask me how does their weave look because I don't personally believe in it. (if you wear it that's your business not hating don't care, it's just not meant for me). 



laurend said:


> I don't  know if this is true or not but in part 2, he said he is going to bring up that black women need to get over the long hair thing because it not plausible.  It's genetics so get over it.  I hope this isn't true.



This I am offended by. When I was younger during the era of dookie braids and Poetic Justice people thought my box braids were extensions and they constantly got pulled by boys and girls. I understand what Chris was trying to do but I think he fell short to some degree. There is a ginormous amount of AA women with long healthy scalp grown hair natural and relaxed. I know because I stalk their fotkis. In this case I feel he is perpetuating a stereotype that if you brown your hair is not growing, you lucky if it gets past the shoulders. 

As far as weaves and hair styles I believe for some women a nice style equals healthy hair. As long as your hair looks good you've succeeded. In my experience I have seen both women in the south and the north with real long hair. I do see more weaving outside of NY and that could just be attributed to a regional thing related to style I don't know. But I do see a lot of tracks in heads and on sidewalks. I would however like everybody to have healthy hair weather it's 2inches or 22 inches just be healthy.

I am going to see this movie to see for myself. It's all in the marketing. The messed up parts probably became the commercials while it is a documentary it is being distributed by a major company who wants their money back and are not concerned about the bigger agenda at hand. As I said in a previous thread for many AA it is no laughing matter but I believe he is using comedy as a way to break the ice on something deeper. Regardless of what some people may want to believe hair straightening to some degree has some negative history associated with it dating far back in history. For that reason I don't use the word nappy because if we were really over that we wouldn't be using words like nappy and brillo to describe our hair in a negative connotation. (This obviously isn't everybody).

I unfortunately missed both shows (I still don't know what channel and time Oprah comes on in Philly). But I think it's important to see what C.R. said about me and my counterparts. And after I see it I definitely plan on telling him where he went wrong and what he did right.


----------



## Tarae (Oct 9, 2009)

mnemosyne said:


> I don't know why the people from NY are acting like they don't see at least 2-3 weaved heads for every long natural out there. Not to mention the short micro ponies, the phony pony unknowns, the apl but thinned out from brushing against their clothing relaxed heads,   the LF divas, the regular ol wig wearing women, the kool aid red mixed with 1b microbraids and whatnot.
> 
> I feel like we're not even on the same subway system if you state otherwise.
> 
> ...


Thank you! Between this thread and the other one about men not caring about hair, I was wondering if I was in a totally different Brooklyn than other ladies.  While I see long, healthy hair (both relaxed and natural), I also see the complete opposite.  And I see the opposite more often than anything else.


----------



## almond eyes (Oct 9, 2009)

I don't think C.R. was intending the movie to have received such a serious reaction. And worse, he is not able to have a discourse on the topic of black hair because he isn't able to. All he can do is crack jokes. At least someone to make a balanced remark would be helpful but if even Oprah can't do that except to say, "Now please do not go up to black women and ask them if their hair is a weave?" that's like her show this week on schizophrenia I mean that was disappointing not at all from a medical perspective or trying to educate people just trying to get ratings on the 7 year old girl with the disease.

Best,
Almond Eyes


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## SvelteVelvet (Oct 9, 2009)

So they couldn't leave well enough alone with last weeks show? And did I miss them announcing several more parts on this subject? Because I don't recall.

For every step forward gotta take two back, and what sounds like went on in this show is a prime example. 

This makes me wish Oprah or heck ANYONE on national t.v. would discover and do a feature on LHCF and black women who have grown their real hair long, on their own and without the help of a salon.


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## wild curls raquelle (Oct 9, 2009)

SvelteVelvet said:


> So they couldn't leave well enough alone with last weeks show? And did I miss them announcing several more parts on this subject? Because I don't recall.
> 
> For every step forward gotta take two back, and what sounds like went on in this show is a prime example.
> 
> This makes me wish Oprah or heck ANYONE on national t.v. would discover and do a feature on LHCF and black women who have grown their real hair long, on their own and without the help of a salon.





almond eyes said:


> When asked by the black women about her hair, Oprah said it was because she has a hairdresser. I mean come-on are black women incapable of growing long hair without a hairdresser?



Can we get a letter going and a pile of pictures to send to Oprah. I am so serious I will write the letter myself.


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## JustKiya (Oct 9, 2009)

SvelteVelvet said:


> So they couldn't leave well enough alone with last weeks show? And did I miss them announcing several more parts on this subject? Because I don't recall.
> 
> For every step forward gotta take two back, and what sounds like went on in this show is a prime example.
> 
> *This makes me wish Oprah or heck ANYONE on national t.v. would discover and do a feature on LHCF and black women who have grown their real hair long, on their own and without the help of a salon.*



 It seems like most people on the board would strongly prefer that _*NOT*_ to happen, though. 

It's odd, the dichotomy - one thread complaining about peoples myopic perceptions of black womens hair, and another thread at the *same* time in where people are hoping with all their hope that no-one 'exposes' this board, because then it'll increase the 'supply' of naturally long-haired black women, and thus devalue long hair on black women, as a whole.  

ETA: Interesting. I was going to link to that thread, but it's gone. Damn, I wonder what popped off in there? Umph. 

I think a lot of people are invested - both for their own bragging rights, and in the wider world, in a purely financial sense - in insuring that black women continue to believe and propagate the lies surrounding the potential of our hair. 

We spend a lot of money trying to have long hair. A _*lot. *_No one likes to see their money source dried up, and I can see Dark & Lovely, Pink Oil, and all them others boycotting (or at least yanking ad revenue) from any place that implied they were a contributor to the dreadful overall state of black women's hair. 
And considering how most black media is largely supported by them and their ilk - yeah, we gonna need an indie sista to do _*that *_film.


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## ladylibra (Oct 9, 2009)

JustKiya said:


> It's odd, the dichotomy - one thread complaining about peoples myopic perceptions of black womens hair, and another thread at the *same* time in where people are hoping with all their hope that no-one 'exposes' this board, because then it'll increase the 'supply' of naturally long-haired black women, and thus devalue long hair on black women, as a whole.



Dang, goes to show how ignorant I am... I assumed people didn't want the board "exposed" because they didn't want the site on blast over some of the "weird" growth aid challenges we have here (Monistat, for example).


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## SvelteVelvet (Oct 9, 2009)

wild curls raquelle said:


> Can we get a letter going and a pile of pictures to send to Oprah. I am so serious I will write the letter myself.


 
Yep, that would be great!  Complete with fotki links and mini write-ups on regimens pointing out lengths relaxed and natural achieved outside of the salon. I'm not too fond of Tyra, but we should send it to her AND Wendy. Somehow between the three of them I feel Wendy would be the one to really bite into it.

Something has to be done, after discovering LHCF this mass perpetual miseducation of afro textured hair is especially aggravating.


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## JustKiya (Oct 9, 2009)

ladylibra said:


> Dang, goes to show how ignorant I am... I assumed people didn't want the board "exposed" because they didn't want the site on blast over some of the "weird" growth aid challenges we have here (Monistat, for example).



 Oh, I'm sure that's a reason too - but the one I mentioned was one that really stuck in my mind as an ............ interesting perspective. erplexed A perfect example of battling over resources that are *perceived *to be scant among minorities.


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## mnemosyne (Oct 9, 2009)

I don't think not wanting other women to have long hair is the reason for fearing "exposure."

People, whether they should be or not, are  quite open on a seemingly private forum. Increased traffic = increased exposure = people racing to delete their "secrets."


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## JustKiya (Oct 9, 2009)

mnemosyne said:


> I don't think not wanting other women to have long hair is the reason for fearing "exposure."
> 
> People, whether they should be or not, are  quite open on a seemingly private forum. Increased traffic = increased exposure = people racing to delete their "secrets."



 

I'm not going to comment on the foolishness of believing this place is private.  In my head, that's not even a valid reason, because it's based on a fallacy.  

The fact that grown (or semigrown) women post things on a PAY TO VIEW website and think it's somehow 'sheltered/private/just among friends' utterly and completely blows my mind. Utterly _*and*_ completely. 

People should be deleting their secrets, to be honest, because they ain't secret - and if you are just now realizing you put yourself out there in ways you didn't intend for the entire 6.50 owning world to see - yeah, clearing up your messiness might be wise.


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## naturalmanenyc (Oct 9, 2009)

I guess that for some people who have not seen a Black women with her own, long hair it may be hard to believe that Black women can have long hair without weave?  I don't recall seeing a lot of Black women with long hair on t.v. or movies when I was growing up.  

I may be dating myself but the longest hair that I recall seeing on a Black woman on t.v. that was not weaved in was Lark Voorhies.  

Personally, my BFF since I was 5 years old has always had long hair, BSL usually.  I've seen Black women with long hair all of my life.  My mom & sister both have short, Halle Berry cuts but for the most part my aunts, grandmas & cousins kept their hair at SL - BSL length.  Even DH's sister, famale cousins & aunts keep their hair at APL or longer.


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## SvelteVelvet (Oct 9, 2009)

Thanks for bringing this up, and it's not too odd. I feel it's normal for every black woman who has discovered how to grow her afro textured hair long and wants to shout it to the rooftops there is one who wants to keep it a secret because it makes her feel special amongst women who do not have the information or are too lazy to apply the information to their hair care practices.

This show, as well as Chris _maybe_ making a statement that it's *impossible* for a woman of color to have WSL hair will keep black women who have real long hair IRL getting reactions from men like Chris gave to Oprah, and from women like the ones in the audience who weave checked her.

IRL, I'm considered to have long hair (I have hair anorexia from being on LHCF) and I'll be honest, the attention is nice. I know I put work into getting it this way and it's nice when it's acknowledged. But the aggravation of the mass miseducation is alot stronger than me feeling 'special'. I'd love for us who are in the know to revolutionize the big business that is black women and our hair, and I'd love to see what WE contribute to the weave industry and those specially formulated for women of hair care products that really don't do any good to dwindle, even if it's just a little. To me I'd get more satisfaction out of it than being able to swing my real hair and get 'ooh's & aah's' because I'm black.




JustKiya said:


> It seems like most people on the board would strongly prefer that _*NOT*_ to happen, though.
> 
> It's odd, the dichotomy - one thread complaining about peoples myopic perceptions of black womens hair, and another thread at the *same* time in where people are hoping with all their hope that no-one 'exposes' this board, because then it'll increase the 'supply' of naturally long-haired black women, and thus devalue long hair on black women, as a whole.
> 
> ...


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## LadyPaniolo (Oct 9, 2009)

Oprah has some amazing power and impact in this world. She could have spent literally 15 seconds on this show with a black woman with BSL hair, and that would have opened minds among black women all over the country, if not the world. Just 15 seconds showing a sista's hair, weaveless, and her briefly saying "I wash it twice a week and use a deep conditioner each time. Then I put it on rollers and sit under the dryer, and this is the result." 

That brief little window into healthy hair care could have made thousands of women go on a search for thier own healthy hair journey. It breaks my heart that she didn't take that opportunity. With great power comes great responsibility.


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## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 9, 2009)

mwedzi said:


> That has been brought up in some of the threads, too.  But it's likely that he thinks BM do not have any real influence on BW's hair decisions.  From the interview I saw, he thinks black women don't care much BM think, and also that BM don't care about hair at all.  He said this immediately after damn near having a heart attack and wetting himself over Oprah's hair.




If I remember correctly, he said that Black women "claim" that they're doing it due to Black men (pressure, etc.), but in actuality, in Chrisrockland, Black men don't care what our hair looks like (this according to him).  In Chrisrockland, Black women are simply straightening their hair or wearing added hair "for themselves".  

He's so blind and full of ish it's laughable.  He needs a good three-hour sit-in with bell hooks.


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## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 9, 2009)

SvelteVelvet said:


> I'm not too fond of Tyra, but we should send it to her AND Wendy. Somehow between the three of them I feel Wendy would be the one to really bite into it.




Wendy would totally be the one.  She's scandalous, but I love her and she's always keen for a good story.  

Does anyone remember when she used to do the traffic report for Kiss FM...and then later the "Top 8 at 8"?  I've been loving some tacky Wendy for *that long*.  So mad she's no longer on the radio, though..


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## Mizz Diamonds (Oct 9, 2009)

LadyPaniolo said:


> Oprah has some amazing power and impact in this world. She could have spent literally 15 seconds on this show with a black woman with BSL hair, and that would have opened minds among black women all over the country, if not the world. Just 15 seconds showing a sista's hair, weaveless, and her briefly saying "I wash it twice a week and use a deep conditioner each time. Then I put it on rollers and sit under the dryer, and this is the result."
> 
> That brief little window into healthy hair care could have made thousands of women go on a search for thier own healthy hair journey. It breaks my heart that she didn't take that opportunity. With great power comes great responsibility.


 
That is so true I remeber years ago when she was talking about that whole foot and mouth thing and said she would never eat that type of meat again thensales in that product decreased dramatically


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## aquajoyice (Oct 9, 2009)

He's gonna get it LOL!


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## ImFree27 (Oct 9, 2009)

No one should support his movie and just watch it on bootleg.....


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## blackbarbie986 (Oct 9, 2009)

NappyMD said:


> I still think if you grow up in the ghetto, then go into the entertainment industry, the vast majority of black women you'll be exposed to will have weaves  so he might not know any better. I want to see the movie for myself. *If we do have any dark secrets, it's not weaves, but how much we go through to conceal our natural texture...*


 
so true, so true


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## kinkycotton (Oct 9, 2009)

After reading opinions from different blogs and other hair board I've notice  some naturals dislike the movie because Chris Rock didn't push natural hair as being "good hair"  and then you have women who wear weaves mad *** hell because they take it as he's implying AA women can't have long hair unless it's a weave. 

Let's be real, there's plenty of black women till this day believes if you're black you can not have long hair. Where do you think most little girls, and men get this idea from? These are the same women who NEVER show their own hair because of shame. 

These are the type of women I believe Chris Rock wanted to put in the limelight. Hell, before going natural I used to think the same damn thing until I educated myself on it. I'm sure Chris Rock learned a lot after making his documentary too.   Not to mention it's a billion dollar industry and black women make up how much in America population? If you really think about it's baffling.  I don't expect anything but laughs.


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## aquajoyice (Oct 9, 2009)

Exactly, good point! JLO has a whole room full of wigs, weaves and hair pieces but know one is busting her out about it. I hear she has really thin hair and is always rocking a piece.


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## theAlist (Oct 9, 2009)

AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> If I remember correctly, he said that Black women "claim" that they're doing it due to Black men (pressure, etc.), but in actuality, in Chrisrockland, Black men don't care what our hair looks like (this according to him).  In Chrisrockland, Black women are simply straightening their hair or wearing added hair "for themselves".
> 
> He's so blind and full of ish it's laughable.  *He needs a good three-hour sit-in with bell hooks*.




 omg YES!  bell is my girl though!!!


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## aquajoyice (Oct 9, 2009)

Yeah I can definitely say this true. I work with a couple that wear fusion ext. I'm the only black chick on my floor in the office that has long hair. I just thought it was funny one day my co-worker kept dropping ext hair that would fall from her head and I thought wow i'm in a world where white women have ext and me being the only black woman with long hair. LOL


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## aquajoyice (Oct 9, 2009)

Jermajesty said:


> omg YES!  bell is my girl though!!!


Off the subject I love your siggy!!! It's sooo cute!


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## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 9, 2009)

Tarae said:


> Thank you! Between this thread and the other one about men not caring about hair, I was wondering if I was in a totally different Brooklyn than other ladies.  While I see long, healthy hair (both relaxed and natural), I also see the complete opposite.  And I see the opposite more often than anything else.




I've lived in Brooklyn (Canarsie, Clinton Hill & Brooklyn Heights) and in Harlem...but Manhattan is where I spent the bulk of my days.  While I saw plenty of women with braids (including extensions), for example, an overwhelming number of women were knotty heads or relaxed with their own hair.  Did they make up a majority?  I'd argue yes in recent years.  Circa 15 years ago?  No.  We were often rocking relaxed hair that was our own, or some sort of added hair; but I didn't see many knotty head girls wearing their hair free, for example.

This has been my experience, as well as the experience of several other women on this site.  The idea of Black women rocking nothing but weaves or added hair is very 1993, for me.  (And this does not mean that it's "right" or "wrong"...we all should be afforded the freedom to choose what we want to do with our hair without being judged.)  And to be honest, I was surprised when many of the women here stated that in their cities/regions, most women wear weaves.  More specifically, I'm surprised so many of us have that much money to invest in consistent weaving.  Like, what do the women without that money to spare do?   Does everyone just happen to have that sort of money to invest?  

This is getting a bit off topic of what Chrisrockland says, though, because he's stating that a Black woman with hair = weave.  What we (including the other sister from Canarsie) are stating is that there are plenty of Black sisters in NY with long hair that is their own.  And that's a reality.


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## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 9, 2009)

Jermajesty said:


> omg YES!  bell is my girl though!!!



I love bell hooks and I know that after that a good three hours with her, Chris would stop that tap dancing and jiving he's doing at the expense of his sisters. 

My SO is reading "Ain't I A Woman" right now, and he keeps raving about how eye-opening/brilliant she is.  Jada Pinkett Smith recommended that book a few years ago, and I have to say...it made me more aware and less tolerant of BS.


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## chiprecious (Oct 9, 2009)

laurend said:


> I don't know if this is true or not but in part 2, he said he is going to bring up that black women need to get over the long hair thing because it not plausible. It's genetics so get over it. I hope this isn't true.


 

WHAT??????  YOU LIE!!!!!!!  Or at least I hope....
I thought it was supposed to be a positive movie...for his girls.  I got go and watch my recorded O cause all this sounds like a bunch of horsecrap!!


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## MJ (Oct 9, 2009)

mnemosyne said:


> I don't know why the people from NY are acting like they don't see at least 2-3 weaved heads for every long natural out there. Not to mention the short micro ponies, the phony pony unknowns, the apl but thinned out from brushing against their clothing relaxed heads,   the LF divas, the regular ol wig wearing women, the kool aid red mixed with 1b microbraids and whatnot.
> 
> I feel like we're not even on the same subway system if you state otherwise.
> 
> ...




I was wondering about that too. Today, I distinctly remember seeing four non-dread naturals (two may be texturized) and a few hundred weaves, wigs (including myself), extensions, braid, phony ponies, and relaxed heads. 

I think this Chris' documentary embarasses people.

It puts out, for all the world to see (although they already know it), the fact that black women have deep issues with their natural hair texture. So much so, that the majority of us, which either includes you and/or someone you know, use fake hair and chemicals to "manage" those issues.


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## jamaraa (Oct 9, 2009)

AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> I love bell hooks and I know that after that a good three hours with her, Chris would stop that tap dancing and jiving he's doing at the expense of his sisters.
> 
> My SO is reading "Ain't I A Woman" right now, and he keeps raving about how eye-opening/brilliant she is. Jada Pinkett Smith recommended that book a few years ago, and I have to say...it made me more aware and less tolerant of BS.


 
Yes *bell* really knows how to lay it down. Shame there are too few like her who get a popular audience. I'm glad your SO is reading her and appreciating where she's coming from. *It's time for Black women AND men to RETURN to a more womanist/feminist in their worldview. It's a shame to think that 100 years ago, Black leaders and thinkers...male and female...were far more womanist than almost anything we've seen in our life times.*  Sad, but very true.


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## SND411 (Oct 9, 2009)

jamaraa said:


> Yes *bell* really knows how to lay it down. Shame there are too few like her who get a popular audience. I'm glad your SO is reading her and appreciating where she's coming from. *It's time for Black women AND men to RETURN to a more womanist/feminist in their worldview. It's a shame to think that 100 years ago, Black leaders and thinkers...male and female...were far more womanist than almost anything we've seen in our life times.*  Sad, but very true.



I agree. I think many times black women ignore their gender issues in order to align and fight against racism only


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## BlackHairDiva (Oct 9, 2009)

Ok, I need to speak for those of us who live in a remote area. I was born and raised in a small white town(canada).My family was the only black/ non white family in town. Other than us, the only reference they had about blacks is whatever that is on tv...keep in mind, the 70s and 80s...there wasent much. So when a movie like this comes out...its embaressing. I can tell you that if that came out when I was a kid...I would have mot gone to shcool for at least a week...just to let it die down. I mean being the only one you already get teased for being different...now to add this to the fire. Come on...y'all need to realise some of us live in remote areas and this type of movie does not make things better but worst. Thank goodness I live in a big city cause If I was in my hometown I would die of embaressment. Just the stares...Urrgh nope...couldn't do it. think of that for the little black girls in remote areas.


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## jamaraa (Oct 9, 2009)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> I agree. I think many times black women ignore their gender issues in order to align and fight against racism only


 
I know and it's killing us. Blacks are people, but guess what women are people too.  Maybe more sisters would think more positively about their hair (for our purposes here) if they thought more positively about themselves as women who are also Black. All this drama over Chris Rock, a man not known for his enlightened views about much, send Black women into a tizzy. Almost nobody in all these posts points out that this is not merely a racial issue, but a gender one as well, perhaps more so. Afterall, here this is a man commenting on what he's not personally experienced and doing it from a very conventional PoV. Hia maleness plays NO PART in his take on it.....yeah right!


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## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 9, 2009)

jamaraa said:


> Yes *bell* really knows how to lay it down. Shame there are too few like her who get a popular audience. I'm glad your SO is reading her and appreciating where she's coming from. *It's time for Black women AND men to RETURN to a more womanist/feminist in their worldview. It's a shame to think that 100 years ago, Black leaders and thinkers...male and female...were far more womanist than almost anything we've seen in our life times.*  Sad, but very true.




Funny you should say that; my SO is from Cameroon and I studied history in university, so we often converse about pre-colonial cultures in African.  I didn't realize that the cultures on the continent were overwhelmingly matriarchal.  It makes one realize just how Eurocentric we are in our present-day, patriarchal culture, even as African-Americans (as well as our global sisters)...

Anywho, I wonder if our younger sisters will continue to increase thieir awareness in regard to these issues.  I have to say, I'm skeptical, but seeing young women on the boards who are in fact aware of hooks and the like gives me hope that we're not all drinking the bamboozled-flavored kool-aid.


----------



## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 9, 2009)

jamaraa said:


> I know and it's killing us. Blacks are people, but guess what women are people too.  Maybe more sisters would think more positively about their hair (for our purposes here) if they thought more positively about themselves as women who are also Black. All this drama over Chris Rock, a man not known for his enlightened views about much, send Black women into a tizzy. Almost nobody in all these posts points out that this is not merely a racial issue, but a gender one as well, perhaps more so. Afterall, here this is a man commenting on what he's not personally experienced and doing it from a very conventional PoV. Hia maleness plays NO PART in his take on it.....yeah right!



The problem is that "feminism" is a fairly taboo amongst people of African descent (including in the US, where it is slowly gaining ground - emphasis on "slowly").  I remember that my friends often thought of womanhood as a "White thing".  

We often complain about our stories, as African-Americans, being told by Whites (be it in history books or in television/film).  I'd argue most would agree upon the importance of African-Americans telling their own stories (and John Singleton DOES NOT COUNT...thanks).  However, as (Black) women, we often fail to see the importance of women telling OUR own stories.  It's as if we don't value ourselves enough to believe we deserve better.  

Being a Black woman is equally as important as being a Black human being.


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## robot. (Oct 9, 2009)

Pppft. That thing was lame.

I will never be satisfied about any type of program aimed at discussing black hair unless it's done by us. But then everyone else would just think we were crazy.


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## jamaraa (Oct 9, 2009)

AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> The problem is that "feminism" is a fairly taboo amongst people of African descent (including in the US, where it is slowly gaining ground - emphasis on "slowly"). I remember that my friends often thought of *womanhood as a "White thing"*.
> 
> We often complain about our stories, as African-Americans, being told by Whites (be it in history books or in television/film). I'd argue most would agree upon the importance of African-Americans telling their own stories (and John Singleton DOES NOT COUNT...thanks). However, as (Black) women, we often fail to see the importance of women telling OUR own stories. It's as if we don't value ourselves enough to believe we deserve better.
> 
> Being a Black woman is equally as important as being a Black human being.


 
Feminism wasn't always taboo. Our earliest thinkers fully believed in women's rights along w/ rights for Blacks. I just wonder what happened, why the regression?

On the bolded....wow, just wow. Femininity belongs ONLY to WW?!  So is Black supposed to be masculine by default? How could anyone concede something so important?! I shudder. I don't concede and never will my femininty. It's incredibily precious.

Black women really need to give this some thought...Black men too. These attitudes are holding us back.


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## SND411 (Oct 9, 2009)

To be honest, y'all, I'm always a woman first.


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## SND411 (Oct 9, 2009)

AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> Funny you should say that; my SO is from Cameroon and I studied history in university, so we often converse about pre-colonial cultures in African.  I didn't realize that the cultures on the continent were overwhelmingly matriarchal.  It makes one realize just how Eurocentric we are in our present-day, patriarchal culture, even as African-Americans (as well as our global sisters)...
> 
> Anywho, I wonder if our younger sisters will continue to increase thieir awareness in regard to these issues.  I have to say, I'm skeptical, but seeing young women on the boards who are in fact aware of hooks and the like gives me hope that we're not all drinking the bamboozled-flavored kool-aid.



You should take Anthropology. You will see many native populations from around the world had gender equality...yet people are so quick to call them "primitive"


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## jamaraa (Oct 9, 2009)

AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> Funny you should say that; my SO is from Cameroon and I studied history in university, so we often converse about pre-colonial cultures in African. I didn't realize that the cultures on the continent were overwhelmingly matriarchal. It makes one realize just how Eurocentric we are in our present-day, patriarchal culture, even as African-Americans (as well as our global sisters)...
> 
> Anywho, I wonder if our younger sisters will continue to increase thieir awareness in regard to these issues. I have to say, I'm skeptical, but seeing young women on the boards who are in fact aware of hooks and the like gives me hope that we're not all *drinking the bamboozled-flavored kool-aid.*


 
 That's some sour vile tasting stuff!  I think and hope that women, Black women in particular, start re-considering much of the race over gender thinking and start valuing themselves as FULL human beings. Are Black men asked to concede their maleness cuz maleness only belongs to WM? Nada. I guess we don't just have a "one drop rule", but a "one gender" one too  .

I think it's funny how Rock made this a solely woman's issue. Tho many Black men aren't putting relaxers/weaves on THEIR heads these days (conks and curls  anyone?), how many of them are demanding them of the women in their lives *and paying for them*? They too are "collaborators", but ones who avoid being put on blast. Typical!


----------



## jamaraa (Oct 9, 2009)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> To be honest, y'all, I'm always a woman first.


 
Me too sis, me too.


----------



## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 9, 2009)

jamaraa said:


> Feminism wasn't always taboo. Our earliest thinkers fully believed in women's rights along w/ rights for Blacks. I just wonder what happened, why the regression?
> 
> On the bolded....wow, just wow. Femininity belongs ONLY to WW?!  So is Black supposed to be masculine by default? How could anyone concede something so important?! I shudder. I don't concede and never will my femininty. It's incredibily precious.
> 
> Black women really need to give this some thought...Black men too. These attitudes are holding us back.




Those that believe feminism is a "White thing" know nothing of Sojourner Truth or Angela Davis.  It's sad and unfortunate.


----------



## jamaraa (Oct 9, 2009)

AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> Those that believe feminism is a "White thing" know nothing of Sejourner Truth or Angela Davis. It's sad and unfortunate.


 
OR Frederick Douglass or WEB Du Bois (to be gender balanced).....but yeah, I guess you're right. Ol' Angela is only known for her BAA!


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## SND411 (Oct 9, 2009)

jamaraa said:


> That's some sour vile tasting stuff!  I think and hope that women, Black women in particular, start re-considering much of the race over gender thinking and start valuing themselves as FULL human beings. Are Black men asked to concede their maleness cuz maleness only belongs to WM? Nada. I guess we don't just have a "one drop rule", but a "one gender" one too  .
> 
> I think it's funny how Rock made this a solely woman's issue. *Tho many Black men aren't putting relaxers/weaves on THEIR heads these days* (conks and curls  anyone?), how many of them are demanding them of the women in their lives *and paying for them*? They too are "collaborators", but ones who avoid being put on blast. Typical!



That's because they don't got enough hair to do so. They always cut it super low, put water on it, and brush it 1000 times to get those "waves"


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## jamaraa (Oct 9, 2009)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> That's because they don't got enough hair to do so. They always cut it super low, put water on it, and brush it 1000 times to get those "waves"


 
LOL...yup you got their number. Keeping it "cut low" allows them to hide the texture. Obviously this isn't an option for most women, but they have their dodges too. They just don't get called on it.


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## lynnstar (Oct 9, 2009)

AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> Those that believe feminism is a "White thing" know nothing of Sejourner Truth or Angela Davis. It's sad and unfortunate.


 
I am proud of the strides that have been made by Black women but....

The Feminist Movement is viewed as a White Woman's fight because, in general, Black women have ALWAYS had to head up a household as a single female. Black women have ALWAYS had to have extra money saved in case her man left her. Black women have ALWAYS had to work outside of the home no matter how menial the job, regardless of whether or not she had children to care for. Its the legacy of slavery and beyond. 

Black women, in general, have NEVER had the luxury of having her Black man putting her so high up on a pedestal that he didn't want her to work outside the home. Black women have never had the luxury of truly feeling that she will ALWAYS be fully taken care of financially, that she need never work outside the home. 

But back to the film, what I really hate about how this film is being promoted is the fact that the beauty of Black women are being used as the butt of the joke.


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## sylver2 (Oct 9, 2009)

shan_2001 said:


> He filmed what he knows. He picked up his camera, did the work and made the film he wanted to make. I'm not mad at his effort. If you have in mind the film you want to see, it may be time to do the Tyler Perry hustle and go out there and make a better film.  You can't expect him to present a fair (to you) and balanced (to you) 2 hour film that addresses every side of the coin.
> 
> 
> And truth be told, Shaquisha in the hood probably still would object to a film with somebody like Sylver2 in it saying that anybody can have hair like that. Because that's not their reality and they will be offended by someone light & long-haired saying they & their family & friends are all simply lazy or not smart enough. They'll be tracing her bloodline back until they find the distant Indian relative to prove their case. And then Tyra will do a show saying how the movie may have presented a false image because this girl has an ancient Indian ancestor, and so forth.  Unfortunate, but likely to be true.



dang..all that ..yall done dragged me thru the mud ..i ain't light..im brown
it wouldn't matter about my ancestors..my texture/type speaks for itself.


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## jamaraa (Oct 9, 2009)

lynnstar said:


> I am proud of the strides that have been made by Black women but....
> 
> The Feminist Movement is viewed as a White Woman's fight because, in general, Black women have ALWAYS had to head up a household as a single female. Black women have ALWAYS had to have extra money saved in case her man left her. Black women have ALWAYS had to work outside of the home no matter how menial the job, regardless of whether or not she had children to care for. Its the legacy of slavery and beyond.
> 
> ...


 
The movement/philosophy is far more than about money or men and I think that's what's being missed and the mistake of WW feminists back in the day. Their focus was always far too narrow. The real issue about self-respect/valuing oneself as a woman and a full human being and that isn't something that WW, BW, or women in general are in excess of, IMHO. 

Frankly what you said is the usual answer/excuse given and one that came along during/after the 2nd Civil Rights era. The post slavery-1920 era (the 1st CR movement) had a totally diff take. Conceding feminism/womenism to middle-upper class WW is a huge mistake, IMHO.

Perhaps the beauty of Black woman wouldn't be the butt of jokes if Black women didn't have their femininity stripped from them, even volutanrily by themselves.


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## princessnad (Oct 9, 2009)

My problem with his movie is that it does nothing to further any thoughts on the issue.  Do a lot of black women wear weaves? yes.
Do a lot of black women prefer straight silky hair? yes
Do a lot of black women and men consider kinky hair bad hair? Sure

But why make a movie just to regurgitate that information? What did he do to further this discussion?

Since the movie was supposedly for his daughters, what will they take away from the film?

NOTHING.  All he did was reinforce that mess.  

His actions speak louder than words.  Men don't care about hair he says but he called Oprah a "slave" and "mean" when pictures were shown with her natural hair at different times in her life.  Then he nearly shatted on himself when he got to run his hands through her hair then called it "JLo hair".  

That man disgusts me.

On another tangent, I think a lot of women on this board have a lot invested in being "exceptions" when it comes to black hair... like Oprah.


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## gissellr78 (Oct 10, 2009)

AvaSpeaks said:


> Yeah but to be honest, I still see alot of natural haired women with short hair! I mean it's not like it's long, and look shrinkage aside, I'm talking women that if there hair is straighten, it should be at least APL, and I don't see it.


 

I see a lot of natural heads in NY and they look Awesome! and i drool...Their is also alottttttt of women with relaxed healthy hair and a lot of weaves....NY is very balanced lol in this sense.

will watch the movie sunday.


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## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 10, 2009)

lynnstar said:


> I am proud of the strides that have been made by Black women but....
> 
> The Feminist Movement is viewed as a White Woman's fight because, in general, Black women have ALWAYS had to head up a household as a single female. Black women have ALWAYS had to have extra money saved in case her man left her. Black women have ALWAYS had to work outside of the home no matter how menial the job, regardless of whether or not she had children to care for. Its the legacy of slavery and beyond.
> 
> ...




Hey Lynnstar    I really appreciate hearing your point of view, because it's a relief (for me) to see that we're at least having a discussion about these issues (it's so important to us and our daughters/sons).  I think Jamaraa said a lot of what I wanted to say, but the concept of "feminism" encompasses _so much more_ than issues of financial independence.  Jada Pinkett Smith was kind enough to recommend this book a few years ago in a certain Black magazine, and I'm going to recommend it here - *"Ain't I A Woman" by Bell Hooks* is an excellent start if you're interested and haven't read it already.  

Being a Black woman in the US and the issues thereby associated with it (both racial AND otherwise) are rarely addressed in the Black American community, outside of our financial independence and academic excellence.  

We refer to ourselves  (Black women) as "female" and we're not scientists.  I think we're the only "racial" group to dehumanize women in this way (even Black women in the US often refer to themselves as "females", bypassing the more noble/human "woman".  Sure, many of us don't think about this, but there is a reason, whether or not we want to examine it, as to why we're dehumanizing ourselves and fellow Black women in this way.  A dog can be a "female".  An animal can be "female".  It's the base level of a species (male/female).  But it can never be a "woman".  We utilize terms for ourselves and fellow Black women...terms that are normally reserved for dogs and other animals.  Why is this?  Are we not _women_?  

Frankly, the system has evolved in such a way that we as African-American women have become participants in our own oppression...and we often don't even realize it.  How many of us will pay money to see this movie that _mocks and derides_ Black women for the challenges and stigma they face regarding standards of beauty?  Many of us are actually willing to pay to be openly mocked by a Black man, because we "love him" (huh?) or think he's funny.  Many of us here don't see a problem with our people being openly derided and exploited for a dollar.  

How many of us listen or dance to music that is clearly misogynist in its slant (yet another attempt at openly exploiting Black women for capital gain)?  Don't we deserve better as African-American women??  Don't our children deserve better?   

We can demand different for our daughters.  It's never too late.  

*Ain't I a Woman* is an excellent book.  Hooks is far more well-versed than I am in that regard, and she's an amazing writer.  If you've not yet read it, I highly recommend it!


----------



## that_1_grrrl (Oct 10, 2009)

EXACTLY what I am thinking, AAP. What I hate about this movie is how exploitative it is. If this is "our" issue, then why does it need to be made into a public discussion. Black folks can discuss this issue on our own. Plus, White folks have proved again and again that they are not capable of learning anything about some of us without applying it to all of us.

This is all about making money, not opening a dialogue about Black hair issues. What good does it do us to have this movie? From what I've heard, he isn't saying anything the average Black woman hasn't heard before. Idk.



AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> My problem with this movie is the way in which it has been promoted, as well as idiotic/buffoonish statements that he has made during its promotion.
> 
> He said it best himself:  the movie was meant to be a "humorous" lens into Black (women's) hair.
> 
> ...


----------



## that_1_grrrl (Oct 10, 2009)

I agree. I have not seen to many Asian women who have hair that looks like a White woman's hair. In fact, I've heard White women say that they wish they had Asian hair and Asian women say they wanted White hair. So, meh.

I've actually seen Asian hair that, to me, looked similar to relaxed Black hair. Asia is such a big continent. It's hard to say what Asian hair is. There is a lot of diversity there, just as there is with ours.

I think that might be why Asian hair is marketed to both Blacks and Whites though. It seems to be able to mimic both textures with ease, imo. I'm talking about the quality hair, not the type that looks way too shiny to even be human hair.



jamaraa said:


> One thing that sticks out here is how segregated so many folks are who don't know either Whites or Asian people on an intimate basis. If you've been in some Asian heads, you'll know that the hair is hardly the same as White hair....it's far coarser, heavier, and thicker and would look strange on their heads untreated. *Those "extensions" WW buy are treated, just like the more natural textured ones marketed to Blacks.*
> 
> The main diff between WW w/ weaves and Blacks is they simply spend more money for better hair and a better install. They usually have them maintained better too. Many of them dye the tracks to blend w/ their hair color better. In short, just because you can't tell they are wearing a weave doesn't mean they aren't....they simply get better "extensions" and care for them to the max.


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## Junebug D (Oct 10, 2009)

sylver2 said:


> dang..all that ..yall done dragged me thru the mud ..i ain't light..im brown
> it wouldn't matter about my ancestors..my texture/type speaks for itself.



Lol, no mud dragging intended. I'm sure it would happen to *anyone* LHCF could put in a movie as an example. Even Oprah, I'm sure there's a bunch of black people saying "That's just because she's rich and uses $10,000 shampoo" or something.


----------



## goodmorningruby (Oct 10, 2009)

Honestly, I can't wait until this is over.


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## Kurlee (Oct 10, 2009)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> That's because they don't got enough hair to do so. They always cut it super low, put water on it, and brush it 1000 times to get those "waves"


totally agree!!!! this obsession with cutting their hair off is ridiculous. They have the good hair complex too, but they don't get called on it and would never admit it.


----------



## NikStarrr (Oct 10, 2009)

princessnad said:


> My problem with his movie is that it does nothing to further any thoughts on the issue.  Do a lot of black women wear weaves? yes.
> Do a lot of black women prefer straight silky hair? yes
> Do a lot of black women and men consider kinky hair bad hair? Sure
> 
> ...



I think what he has done is of course, make fun of and is forcing black women to look at themselves and to see how far gone "we" have gone with this trying to get perfect/"good" hair.  I mean, we went from (in the earlier times) scorching our hair straight with hot combs, to using a soap making chemical into our hair (lye) which later on became relaxer, to fast forward people importing Indian hair (which is now big business), etc.  He says this was done for his daughters.  Maybe he's hoping this poking fun and "putting on blast" at how ridiculous the whole hair thing has gotten will inspire some to embrace what they actually have naturally.  I haven't seen the movie yet, so I guess I'm just trying to go into it with an optimistic attitude, more so.


----------



## lynnstar (Oct 10, 2009)

AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> Hey Lynnstar  I really appreciate hearing your point of view, because it's a relief (for me) to see that we're at least having a discussion about these issues (it's so important to us and our daughters/sons). I think Jamaraa said a lot of what I wanted to say, but the concept of "feminism" encompasses _so much more_ than issues of financial independence. Jada Pinkett Smith was kind enough to recommend this book a few years ago in a certain Black magazine, and I'm going to recommend it here - *"Ain't I A Woman" by Bell Hooks* is an excellent start if you're interested and haven't read it already.
> 
> Being a Black woman in the US and the issues thereby associated with it (both racial AND otherwise) are rarely addressed in the Black American community, outside of our financial independence and academic excellence.
> 
> ...


 

I love bell hooks, too!

In terms of the Feminist Movement, though, I think that in a general sense it has never really addressed the specific issues of Black women. 

I do not believe that the movement born out of White women's need to prove their equality to White men really hits on our (Black) needs as women.   

In many ways, Black women are victims of our own images; images (usually negative) that were created for us and images that we also sometimes continue to perpetuate, willingly. 

Black women are viewed as unfeminine, workhorses, loud, aggressive, angry, overbearing, promiscuous, and on and on and on erplexed. And while White women were clamoring for the "rights" to be many of these exact same things, we should be looking to run far, far away from these same images. 

Black women can not afford to embrace many of the fundamentals of the Feminist Movement. We actually need to _embrace_ the "feminine chains" that White women are so desperate to throw off. We need to be put on that pedestal and cherished. Because in the end, it _is_ about men and money (and how we are viewed, how we are treated differently, etc). 

Black women have already proven that we can "take care of ourselves" and "do it all". Of all other races of women in America, Black women are the least likely to marry, the most likely to head a single parent household, most likely to have children out of wedlock....

The last thing we need is a film that mocks "our" beauty rituals. We need to take back our dignity!


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## Lita (Oct 10, 2009)

beans4reezy said:


> Just about every?
> 
> Must be a regional thing: you will find countless of long, healthy haired, Black women rocking their own hair Brooklyn, NY.
> 
> Shout out to my long haired sistahs up in Canarsie!



I live in BK,NYC..Some-times people ask me (Are you mixed Question's) or want to pull my hair..We have a long way to goooo...

Chris Rock???????????


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## nathansgirl1908 (Oct 10, 2009)

AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> My problem with this movie is the way in which it has been promoted, as well as idiotic/buffoonish statements that he has made during its promotion.
> 
> He said it best himself:  the movie was meant to be a "humorous" lens into Black (women's) hair.
> 
> *This was not meant to inspire some sort of serious, insightful dialogue amongst people of African descent.  It was meant to fingerpoint and passively mock Black women for their beauty choices and challenges.  *



THANK YOU.  I think so as well.  Chris Rock gets on my last nerve.  I have never cared for him and his attitude and comments on Oprah reiterate this.


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## nathansgirl1908 (Oct 10, 2009)

Tarae said:


> Watching now.
> @ this woman who wrote in that said YT women's hair is basically an advantage and it's why they get our men.
> 
> My goodness.  I didn't know it went _there._.



When Oprah was reading that letter...I can't even describe the disgust I was feeling.   That's why she didn't want to be seen on television or be revealed in any way.  She knew what she was saying was stupid as h#$%.


----------



## Maracujá (Oct 10, 2009)

princessnad said:


> My problem with his movie is that it does nothing to further any thoughts on the issue.  Do a lot of black women wear weaves? yes.
> Do a lot of black women prefer straight silky hair? yes
> Do a lot of black women and men consider kinky hair bad hair? Sure
> 
> ...



Thank you wasn't enough, this sums up very well how I feel about this movie. Before seeing it I thought he was going to promote natural hair...boy was I wrong.


----------



## nathansgirl1908 (Oct 10, 2009)

almond eyes said:


> I was embarassed over the first letter that Oprah read trying to sound more ethnic to get the point across. But what was embarassing was the fact that the writer said that white women had an advantage over black women because of the hair especially with the black men who coveted in her words "silky hair", now for Oprah to even allow herself to read such a letter was really a shock because it gives the impression that all black women feel this way.
> 
> Second that the black women in the audience did not believe it was Oprah's hair and Oprah let them do a weave check during the commercials. Will people now feel it's okay to demand to do weave checks? And shame on the black women, it came off very poorly.
> 
> ...


Oprah showed poor judgment in reading that letter in my opinion.  And you could feel how uneasy people were in the audience. 

Chris is a liar when he says he isn't about degrading people, because as you pointed out he has done comedy where he mocked and degraded black women.

With respect to those two black women, they both deserve a jackass award for that.  Even though I can understand why someone would feel offended by Oprah's remark about having a hairdresser, if you notice, she was angry and she spoke without thinking.  But she came back and tried to smooth it over by saying that she had the same hairdresser who helped her keep her hair on her head.   But I wasn't offended by it in the least because at that point she should've played their faces.  It was stupid for them to insist that it wasn't her hair.  Just shows how these myths about black women not being able to grow long hair are continuing to be perpetuated by our own people.


----------



## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 10, 2009)

lynnstar said:


> I love bell hooks, too!
> 
> In terms of the Feminist Movement, though, I think that in a general sense it has never really addressed the specific issues of Black women.
> 
> ...



Hey Lynnstar, if you haven't seen them already, give Bell Hooks' youtube videos a gander.  I find that Angela Davis, even Bell Hooks address "Black Feminism" (I don't like to use this term, but it's the best I can come up with to articulate the point).  As for "mainstream feminism" from our White counterparts, I don't really pay attention to it, to be honest.  Because the things that we're trying to overcome as Black women are very specific to us (e.g. the small examples I gave in my earlier post).  However, although our needs or concerns are often different, they still qualify as "feminism", albeit specifically for Black women.  

When we speak of feminism (myself and other posters), I believe we are more specifically addressing feminism in regard to Black women.  

I would like to have the luxury of White women to protest against inequal pay/salaries, but unfortunately I'm still trying to fight for the right to not be addressed as a "b!tch" or a "hoe" or a "female" by Black men and Black women...we're still trying to overcome the Sapphire steroetype...the list goes on.  

But this is OUR feminism.  And this feminism should appeal to all of us, as we and our daughters/sons have an investment in its success.  So do Black men (hence, our sons)...whether or not they (or we) realize it.


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## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 10, 2009)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> It was stupid for them to insist that it wasn't her hair.  Just shows how these myths about black women not being able to grow long hair are continuing to be perpetuated by our own people.




I actually had someone here on this board tell me that Black women are not able to grow their hair as long as "others".  

You would think that perusing this board and their associated Fotkis would lead someone to disregard such a myth...but alas, the sense that is inferiority fights like hell to remain alive and well.


----------



## Daughter (Oct 10, 2009)

Kurlee said:


> totally agree!!!! this obsession with cutting their hair off is ridiculous. They have the good hair complex too, but they don't get called on it and would never admit it.



 

And lest we forget, the good old S-curl!


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## Daughter (Oct 10, 2009)

lynnstar said:


> I love bell hooks, too!
> 
> In terms of the Feminist Movement, though, I think that in a general sense it has never really addressed the specific issues of Black women.
> 
> I do not believe that the movement born out of White women's need to prove their equality to White men really hits on our (Black) needs as women.



I would also add working class women (black or white) to that equation as well.


----------



## Duchesse (Oct 10, 2009)

princessnad said:


> *My problem with his movie is that it does nothing to further any thoughts on the issue.  Do a lot of black women wear weaves? yes.
> Do a lot of black women prefer straight silky hair? yes
> Do a lot of black women and men consider kinky hair bad hair? Sure
> 
> ...



I agree entirely with the bolded!

I went to see the film last night at a Magic Johnson theater in Harlem. (Sidenote..they were selling "Curls" Hair products in the lobby..that was funny.)

Yes there were some knee slapping guffaw funny moments. But I left with an overwhelming feeling of "okay...now what?". 10 years from now if his daughters see the film, I can't think of anything that they would have learned.

All in all, Chris Rock did a god job of exposing the foolish things that black women do to their heads, and made black women look like fools. He could have taken it deeper, maybe exploring in a serious matter the history of self hate and the standards of beauty. The _why's_ of getting a perm and spending food money on weaves, rather than in famous Chris Rock voice baring all teefuses "Deeze women are crazy!" 

What really got me was this trio of white folks sitting in front of me..two guys and a girl. The guy who was directly in front of my chair was laughing incredibly loud during the movie...but it was like that Dave Chappelle incident...lauighing _at_ the women in a way that made me want to kick him in the back of his skull.

As much as I love Chris, I kinda give him a thumbs down for this film. It had potential for serious social commentary, but all it did IMO was make a mockery of BW.


----------



## jamaraa (Oct 10, 2009)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> Oprah showed poor judgment in reading that letter in my opinion. And you could feel how uneasy people were in the audience.
> 
> Chris is a liar when he says he isn't about degrading people, *because as you pointed out he has done comedy where he mocked and degraded black women.*
> 
> With respect to those two black women, they both deserve a jackass award for that. Even though I can understand why someone would feel offended by Oprah's remark about having a hairdresser, if you notice, she was angry and she spoke without thinking. But she came back and tried to smooth it over by saying that she had the same hairdresser who helped her keep her hair on her head. But I wasn't offended by it in the least because at that point she should've played their faces. It was stupid for them to insist that it wasn't her hair. Just shows how these myths about black women not being able to grow long hair are continuing to be perpetuated by our own people.


 
In fairness to CR, he's mocked all sorts of people including Black men. 

Why should they be offended by her hairdresser remark? She's on tv everyday in addition to being a very wealthy woman...so of course she had a hairdresser on call. LOL...the same dude who gave us this alphabet soup hair typing drama.

That Oprah allowed those two idiots to feel her head as if she were a puppy says lots about all involved. There's a notable lack of self-respect in that situation by all involved. That whole thing was just triflin'.


----------



## jamaraa (Oct 10, 2009)

lynnstar said:


> I love bell hooks, too!
> 
> In terms of the Feminist Movement, though, I think that in a general sense it has never really addressed the specific issues of Black women.
> 
> ...


 
The way Black women are viewed was originally put in place by WM for their own purposes, but then again this also applies to WW. BM actively uphold the traditional WM views of women's roles while not buying into their views about men's roles...so the situation is complicated.

Black women DO NOT need to be on a pedestal cuz as we know, pedestals are greased in America and you are guaranteed to fall off w/ a loud THUD. Black women need to be viewed as full human beings...not some some superwoman myth. Being worshiped is just the flip side of being reviled....both are prisons created by men and upheld by women. Men get/keep control and women get/keep a dodge to full personhood w/ the responsibilities that come w/ it.

I'm sorry, but I can't say that BW proved that they can make it on their own. On the contrary, I think this is why so many (tho certainly not all) BW are so miserable thus fulfilling the "Sapphire" stereotype" way too often. The fact that BW HAVE been abandoned is NOT testiment to THEIR positive traits, but what they've been focred to deal w/. The societal results don't bear this out. Frankily too many BW are treading water and going under.. If this were the case, BW would NOT keep pining for traditional notions of femininity attrituted to WW.

If BW had it together as well as you think, why are people so up in arms about this doc? Why all this handwringing about PROVING we can grow our hair long? Why the fear of mockery? A healthy population can laugh at itself, so what does the reaction we're seeing say? Is long hair the one trait many BW are using to "prove" their femininity? I truly hope not, but fear it may be so.

Men and money are APART of life, but much of the reason WHY BW are having problems maintaining BOTH is because BW have been put and choose to remain in a situation where they don't embrace their full humanity. Going back to the WW's cast off 1950s suburban myth ain't no solution.


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## that_1_grrrl (Oct 10, 2009)

Oh yeah! We're supposedly enlightened but how many times has it been said on here that Black women can not grow as long as other races? I've heard people say that most Black women probably won't get past WL, maybe TBL.

There is always a glass ceiling for us. 



AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> I actually had someone here on this board tell me that Black women are not able to grow their hair as long as "others".
> 
> You would think that perusing this board and their associated Fotkis would lead someone to disregard such a myth...but alas, the sense that is inferiority fights like hell to remain alive and well.


----------



## jamaraa (Oct 10, 2009)

AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> Hey Lynnstar, if you haven't seen them already, give Bell Hooks' youtube videos a gander. I find that Angela Davis, even Bell Hooks address "Black Feminism" (I don't like to use this term, but it's the best I can come up with to articulate the point). As for "mainstream feminism" from our White counterparts, I don't really pay attention to it, to be honest. Because the things that we're trying to overcome as Black women are very specific to us (e.g. the small examples I gave in my earlier post). However, although our needs or concerns are often different, they still qualify as "feminism", albeit specifically for Black women.
> 
> When we speak of feminism (myself and other posters), I believe we are more specifically addressing feminism in regard to Black women.
> 
> ...


 
*Womanism * seems the preferred term embraced by women of color, tho I used feminism w/ it so people would know what I was talking about.


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## jamaraa (Oct 10, 2009)

that_1_grrrl said:


> I agree. I have not seen to many Asian women who have hair that looks like a White woman's hair. In fact, I've heard White women say that they wish they had Asian hair and Asian women say they wanted White hair. So, meh.
> 
> I've actually seen Asian hair that, to me, looked similar to relaxed Black hair. Asia is such a big continent. It's hard to say what Asian hair is. There is a lot of diversity there, just as there is with ours.
> 
> I think that might be why Asian hair is marketed to both Blacks and Whites though. It seems to be able to mimic both textures with ease, imo. I'm talking about the quality hair, not the type that looks way too shiny to even be human hair.


 
Exactly to all. Due to the thickness and coarseness of Asian hair, *at least the stuff they seek for extensions*,  it can be treated to mimic all sorts of hair textures and still look good. 

Of course Asia is a very diverse continent, but Indian hair seems to be the flavor of the month these days.


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## jamaraa (Oct 10, 2009)

AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> Hey Lynnstar  I really appreciate hearing your point of view, because it's a relief (for me) to see that we're at least having a discussion about these issues (it's so important to us and our daughters/sons). I think Jamaraa said a lot of what I wanted to say, but the concept of "feminism" encompasses _so much more_ than issues of financial independence. Jada Pinkett Smith was kind enough to recommend this book a few years ago in a certain Black magazine, and I'm going to recommend it here - *"Ain't I A Woman" by Bell Hooks* is an excellent start if you're interested and haven't read it already.
> 
> Being a Black woman in the US and the issues thereby associated with it (both racial AND otherwise) are rarely addressed in the Black American community, outside of our financial independence and academic excellence.
> 
> ...


 
That's a VERY interesting point about the word "female". Part of this is an American thing, IMHO. Americans seem to dislike the word "woman" and to seek to avoid it. I think it's tied up in the obsesson w/ youth and the fear of growing up/old. How many people go around calling themselves and other adult women "girls"? That's an across racial line thing. The French, who have a femininity fetish , revel in the word "woman" (ie femme). To them the greatest thing you can be a *la femme*. I discuessed w/ a French friend of mine and she thought it sad. Nothing better than being "les femmes" in her book! I agreed w/ her.

Tho I rarely hear WW use the term "female" to describe themselves (I never hear this from non Americans..Black or otherwise). I think much of the sentiments are the same. Neither group really embrace the idea of being a WOMAN in all it's complications. A "girl" is a latent woman and a "female" is merely someone who posesses the gender traits, but neither are women w/ all the adult complications. Either womanhood is stereotyped as "hearth and home" caregivers AND/OR as being unsexy. erplexed Tho how could anyone think "female" is sexy is beyond me. That terms simply removes and any all sense of grace/value for being a woman, IMHO. 

You said your guy is from Cameroon...I'm curious how women there refer to themselves and how they are referred to? I know many African women resent being referred to as "baby" or "girl" cuz they feel womanhood should be prized, not youth and immaturity. I hate to think at how they'd react to being referred to as a "female". 

I have to say I'm enjoying this convo. It's a rarely discussed issue in our hair quests!


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## isobell (Oct 10, 2009)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> To be honest, y'all, I'm always a woman first.




 i've always believed this!  There are many places in the world where the fact that I'm black is neither interesting nor relevant; but there is no where in the world where my gender is irrelevant.  I am always a woman, and where I am there is always a gender dynamic that I have to negotiate.


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## isobell (Oct 10, 2009)

*We refer to ourselves (Black women) as "female" and we're not scientists. I think we're the only "racial" group to dehumanize women in this way (even Black women in the US often refer to themselves as "females", bypassing the more noble/human "woman". Sure, many of us don't think about this, but there is a reason, whether or not we want to examine it, as to why we're dehumanizing ourselves and fellow Black women in this way. A dog can be a "female". An animal can be "female". It's the base level of a species (male/female). But it can never be a "woman". We utilize terms for ourselves and fellow Black women...terms that are normally reserved for dogs and other animals. Why is this? Are we not women?*

you know i've only noticed this trend in the past year, i don't understand why it doesn't bother people.  To my ears it always implies that the person being referred to is "other", its very cold and detached, like someone said, it sounds scientific and the one being referred to is the subject, not necessarily human. Not sure why i'm even surprised by that, if there's anything that's prevalent in our society, its a lack of empathy, people dehumanize each other on so many levels every day, it makes it much easier to treat them like so much rubbish. (yes i know that's on a tangent but it really bothers me)


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## that_1_grrrl (Oct 10, 2009)

I can not begin to describe how much hearing the word "female" in reference to a woman burns me. I don't know why, but it bothers me more even than the b-word. I think it may be because I hear directed towards Black women more than anyone else. Ugh, I just hate it.



isobell said:


> *We refer to ourselves (Black women) as "female" and we're not scientists. I think we're the only "racial" group to dehumanize women in this way (even Black women in the US often refer to themselves as "females", bypassing the more noble/human "woman". Sure, many of us don't think about this, but there is a reason, whether or not we want to examine it, as to why we're dehumanizing ourselves and fellow Black women in this way. A dog can be a "female". An animal can be "female". It's the base level of a species (male/female). But it can never be a "woman". We utilize terms for ourselves and fellow Black women...terms that are normally reserved for dogs and other animals. Why is this? Are we not women?*
> 
> you know i've only noticed this trend in the past year, i don't understand why it doesn't bother people.  To my ears it always implies that the person being referred to is "other", its very cold and detached, like someone said, it sounds scientific and the one being referred to is the subject, not necessarily human. Not sure why i'm even surprised by that, if there's anything that's prevalent in our society, its a lack of empathy, people dehumanize each other on so many levels every day, it makes it much easier to treat them like so much rubbish. (yes i know that's on a tangent but it really bothers me)


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## shocol (Oct 10, 2009)

AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> This is why I won't be in line at all for his mockumentary.



Neither will I.  The joke's on us and we don't even realize it.




jamaraa said:


> That's some sour vile tasting stuff!  I think and hope that women, Black women in particular, start re-considering much of the race over gender thinking and start valuing themselves as FULL human beings. Are Black men asked to concede their maleness cuz maleness only belongs to WM? Nada. I guess we don't just have a "one drop rule", but a "one gender" one too  .
> 
> _*I think it's funny how Rock made this a solely woman's issue.*_ Tho many Black men aren't putting relaxers/weaves on THEIR heads these days (conks and curls  anyone?), how many of them are demanding them of the women in their lives *and paying for them*? They too are "collaborators", but ones who avoid being put on blast. Typical!



Yes, that's exactly what he did by going on Oprah and saying that "Black men don't care."  Now it's not a historical, collective issue but a __________ (fill in the blank) Black woman's issue.



AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> Frankly, the system has evolved in such a way that we as African-American women have become participants in our own oppression...and we often don't even realize it.  How many of us will pay money to see this movie that _mocks and derides_ Black women for the challenges and stigma they face regarding standards of beauty?  Many of us are actually willing to pay to be openly mocked by a Black man, because we "love him" (huh?) or think he's funny.  Many of us here don't see a problem with our people being openly derided and exploited for a dollar.



Sad, isn't it?



NikStar said:


> I think what he has done is of course, make fun of and is forcing black women to look at themselves and to see how far gone "we" have gone with this trying to get perfect/"good" hair.  I mean, we went from (in the earlier times) scorching our hair straight with hot combs, _*t**o using a soap making chemical into our hair (lye) which later on became relaxer*_, to fast forward people importing Indian hair (which is now big business), etc.  He says this was done for his daughters.  Maybe he's hoping this poking fun and "putting on blast" at how ridiculous the whole hair thing has gotten will inspire some to embrace what they actually have naturally.  I haven't seen the movie yet, so I guess I'm just trying to go into it with an optimistic attitude, more so.



I seem to remember my mother telling me that in the 60's and 70's BM were among the first to use lye on their hair.


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## jamaraa (Oct 10, 2009)

shocol said:


> Neither will I. The joke's on us and we don't even realize it.
> 
> Yes, that's exactly what he did by going on Oprah and saying that "Black men don't care." Now it's not a historical, collective issue but a __________ (fill in the blank) Black woman's issue.
> 
> ...


 
Yes, men used lye in conks (read Malcolm X for the tragicomic description of a home conk) from at least the late 40s. This was the pompador era for both men and women. Men only stopped using this in the Black Power late 60s BAA era, but of course many went for culs in the 80s. The relaxer came later, but was pretty much based on the conk formula. Relaxers really seemed to take off in the early 80s, but jheri curls were happening then. I think relaxers for women pretty much started in the mid 70s, but became popular much later. LOL...I was a small kid then in the late 70s-early 80s, so I'm just going by what I recall.

The joke's on those who put money in that clown's pocket for this. I ain't buying what he's sellin'. 

Making it solely a woman's issue was a great dodge and dishonest on his part. While I don't believe that random BM actually care what random BW do w/ their hair, I certainly think they care when it comes to the women in their lives. Apparently Rock didn't even ask HIS wife what she did to HER hair, so this makes this whole film even more idiotic than it's premise. If he cared so much about this issue, shouldn't Mrs. R be at least part of his focus? I guess he knew better than to try and clown her.


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## FluffyRed (Oct 10, 2009)

shocol said:


> I seem to remember my mother telling me that in the 60's and 70's BM were among the first to use lye on their hair.


 
I was little in the 70's and I remember being in a salon and a big chocolate brother with a beard was sitting under a dry with pink rollers in his hair.   EWWWW!


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## nathansgirl1908 (Oct 10, 2009)

jamaraa said:


> In fairness to CR, he's mocked all sorts of people including Black men.
> 
> '.



Thats true, but my statement was in response to him saying on Oprah that he doesn't degrade.   He was lying.


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## Chin (Oct 10, 2009)

BroadstreetBully said:


> Shinning, extra straight extensions=bad install
> 
> That's NOT what I thought we were talking about. A black woman with long hair, be it a good install or her own will be weave checked. A white woman won't. It's not JUST about texture, it's about the assumption that all white women have naturally long hair (it does tend to be longer than ours).
> 
> And once again I'm not sure what installs you all are seeing, but 99% of white female extensions look absolutely FAKE. I can spot them much quicker than a black install of the quality.



From what I see Paris extensions looks just like her natural hair on top of her head. A black woman's extensions looks like hair that belongs on someone else hair. Hence why black women get questioned so often. I never heard a black woman get questioned in the past about having braids in her hair from others regardless if fake hair was added or not. Maybe braids are considered to be a natural hair style for Black women and European/Asian hair would belong on someone else.


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## Chin (Oct 10, 2009)

Southernbella. said:


> I think this is an excellent point.
> 
> If black women were wearing weaves that mimicked their actual texture (and I don't just mean natural. Relaxed black hair still has some texture), I don't think we'd be having the same discussion.
> 
> ...



I wished I didn't skip pages because I could have agreed to what you already said.


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## jamaraa (Oct 10, 2009)

Princess_Teearra said:


> From what I see Paris extensions looks just like her natural hair on top of her head. A black woman's extensions looks like hair that belongs on someone else hair. *Hence why black women get questioned so often.* I never heard a black woman get questioned in the past about having braids in her hair from others regardless if fake hair was added or not. Maybe braids are considered to be a natural hair style for Black women and European/Asian hair would belong on someone else.


 
That pic of Hilton looks OK, but there are plenty of pics where her hair looks plastic. She clearly wears extensions and isn't ashamed. Why should she be? shrug.

bolded...don't buy. Yes, BW get questioned if they have super long (let's call it ALP+ for our purposes) braid extensions. They get questioned if they have super long hair at all, even and especially if it's all theirs. Unless you're using non human hair, the braid extensions are also of Asian hair.

This is not about weaves but the perception that Black women can't have long hair WITHOUT it being a weave/wig. Why else did those idiots run their hand thru Oprah's hair when clearly the texture "matches"? It's not about texture, it's about length, IMHO.


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## Chin (Oct 10, 2009)

BroadstreetBully said:


> Many black women wear weaves, but to me that doesn't matter. I'm so sick and tired of generalizations about black women making their way to the media. The media is full of generalizations about black women, show me something different for once. It's rare that one of us gets to control what images are presented to the media, at least use the opportunity to present something new and different. At least present all different angles of the issues. I don't care if most black women are rocking straight weaves, ALL aren't so why not drive that point home? All black women aren't desperate to have straight, euro hair, and many black women have their own long hair. If Chris Rock claims he did 'research' for this film, he should have come across SOMETHING about black women with long hair and presented that if he was going to be on almost every major talk show talking about our hair.
> 
> If might be okay for some of you, but not for me. If white people were up on stage spewing out these generalizations left and right, people would have been upset. Chris Rock shouldn't get a pass either.
> 
> ...



That's true, but I have noticed that a lot of these generalizations are started by Black women themselves. Like "black women can't grow hair" didn't get attention in the media until Tyra did a show on it. Lastly "black women are not finding mates because Black men want women because of their hair", from Tyra and Shirley letter from Oprah.


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## Serenity_Peace (Oct 11, 2009)

For me, the most insulting thing is that white people act as if they don't understand why black women make such a big deal about their hair. They created these standards of beauty. They inundated the culture with these standards; they paraded pale skin, straight, blonde hair as *the* ideal that all must live up to. Not just black women, but Asian women, Hispanic women, East Asian (Indian) women, from Ethnic Jews to dark-skinned Persians. It's not just an accident that minority populations all over the world are destroyed by colorism. In India, there is a caste system in place that, by and large, separates lighter-skinned Indians from darker-skinned Indians. The fairer-skinned Indians tend to be highly educated and wealthy. In Brazil, colorism is major. And in many Hispanic cultures, in general, light skin is prized and thought of as more beautiful than darker-skin.

And yet, European descendants act as though they had no part in this. They feign ignorance about what's going on in Black America. Wait a minute...they're the ones who propagated these ideals of what constitute real beauty. The impact of colonialism is not a figment of our imagination. It has manifested itself in many ways and have destroyed families. I have an entire segment of my family that won't speak or associate with the other side because of skin color. And white people act as if they had no part in that.


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## jamaraa (Oct 11, 2009)

Princess_Teearra said:


> That's true, but I have noticed that *a lot of these generalizations are started by Black women themselves. *Like "black women can't grow hair" didn't get attention in the media until Tyra did a show on it. Lastly "black women are not finding mates because Black men want women because of their hair", from Tyra and Shirley letter from Oprah.


 
Yes, sadly this is true. If these things don't START w/ BW, many times they are carried on by BW and enforced on other BW. Unfortunately too many BW are incredibly willing to believe the worst about themselves and their fellows no matter what subject "the worst" may be about.


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## jamaraa (Oct 11, 2009)

Serenity_Peace said:


> For me, the most insulting thing is that white people act as if they don't understand why black women make such a big deal about their hair. They created these standards of beauty. They inundated the culture with these standards; they paraded pale skin, straight, blonde hair as *the* ideal that all must live up to. Not just black women, but Asian women, Hispanic women, East Asian (Indian) women, from Ethnic Jews to dark-skinned Persians. *It's not just an accident that minority populations all over the world are destroyed by colorism. In India, there is a caste system in place that, by and large, separates lighter-skinned Indians from darker-skinned Indians. The fairer-skinned Indians tend to be highly educated and wealthy. In Brazil, colorism is major. And in many Hispanic cultures, in general, light skin is prized and thought of as more beautiful than darker-skin.*
> 
> And yet, European descendants act as though they had no part in this. *They feign ignorance about what's going on in Black America. Wait a minute..*.they're the ones who propagated these ideals of what constitute real beauty. The impact of colonialism is not a figment of our imagination. It has manifested itself in many ways and have destroyed families. I have an entire segment of my family that won't speak or associate with the other side because of skin color. And white people act as if they had no part in that.


 
The caste system in India predates contact w/ Europe by millenia. It has nothing to do w/ Euro standards. Many of these caste systems you describe also existed pre Euro contact, so we can't lay it all on Whites.

Most societies have a standard f beauty that predate Euro contact (this is not true for "New World" Blacks arguably), but in many cultures lighter skin is prized because it signified that one doesn't labor in the fields. In some parts of Africa darker skin is prized and people make themselves darker. Euro colonialism has certainly made it's mark and complicated things, but color/hair issues didn't start w/ them. That's giving them far too much credit.

Your modern everyday White is looking from the inside out. They are accepting of and perpetuating the status quo about beauty standrads because they are allegdly on the "in" (tho they struggle w/ it too). *However, given how segregated America is, many of them have little intimate contact w/ non Whites, so they don't connect these issues together. so I'm not so sure your average feigning ignorance.* Even if they are, what can they do to alleviate other people's inferority complexes?

They can sell a beauty standard, but it's up to you if you choose to buy it.


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## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 11, 2009)

jamaraa said:


> That's a VERY interesting point about the word "female". Part of this is an American thing, IMHO.
> 
> Tho I rarely hear WW use the term "female" to describe themselves (I never hear this from non Americans..Black or otherwise).
> 
> ...



Hey Jamaraa    I have noticed that in the US, I hear African-Americans (men and women) in particular referring to themselves or other women as merely "female".  

I can't even articulate how dehumanizing and debasing that is.  

MY SO said that women are usually referred to as "ma" or "mama" but it has a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT meaning from that which is used in the US.  In his culture (and for many other countries throughout the continent) it's a show of nobility and respect.  In the US, when used with women in the street, it often has some sort of leering sexual connotation (usually uttered by random dude in the street while he's checking out my 'tocks...).  

I will say, I've shared with him my own observations, and he is often shocked by the behavior or lack of concern of Black men in the US and our own perception of ourselves as Black women (and men)...as well as our participation in these systems.  

(We live outside of the US; but I'm from NY...)


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## FluffyRed (Oct 11, 2009)

jamaraa said:


> *The caste system in India predates contact w/ Europe by millenia*. It has nothing to do w/ Euro standards. Many of these caste systems you describe also existed pre Euro contact, so we can't lay it all on Whites.
> 
> *They can sell a beauty standard, but it's up to you if you choose to buy it*.


 
First bold the caste system may predate contact with Europe, but was *color* associated with it before contact with Europe?   It used to be that you were born into a caste, from what I understood, not that having heavily Euro features made you better and more presentable, which is more what I'm seeing today.  

Second bold, I think they did more than sell it, but, true we have the choice today


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## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 11, 2009)

jamaraa said:


> Euro colonialism has certainly made it's mark and complicated things, but color/hair issues didn't start w/ them. That's giving them far too much credit.
> 
> Your modern everyday White is looking from the inside out. They are accepting of and perpetuating the status quo about beauty standrads because they are allegdly on the "in" (tho they struggle w/ it too). However, given how segregated America is, many of them have little intimate contact w/ non Whites, so they don't connect these issues together. so I'm not so sure your average feigning ignorance. Even if they are, what can they do to alleviate other people's inferority complexes?




I nearly leapt out of my chair when I read this.  Everyday, I hear us attributing darn near every "standard of beauty" to White folks.  Whether or not they're reinforcing or perpetuating it, they don't have a monopoly (at all) on straight hair, loose curls, wavy hair, "straight" noses, non-pouty lips, slender bodies...but we swear up and down that those things are all somehow "White".

I originally wrote a lot more, but I just deleted it because I'm a skeptic by nature adn unfortunately, I don't believe this is something we are ready to even face.


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## andromeda (Oct 11, 2009)

jamaraa said:


> T*he caste system in India predates contact w/ Europe by millenia. It has nothing to do w/ Euro standards. Many of these caste systems you describe also existed pre Euro contact, so we can't lay it all on Whites.
> 
> Most societies have a standard f beauty that predate Euro contact (this is not true for "New World" Blacks arguably), but in many cultures lighter skin is prized because it signified that one doesn't labor in the fields. In some parts of Africa darker skin is prized and people make themselves darker. Euro colonialism has certainly made it's mark and complicated things, but color/hair issues didn't start w/ them. That's giving them far too much credit.*


Thanks so much for making this point!  I find it interesting how people are quick to revel in the colorism issues of others, esp Indians.  IMO, it's rather ethnocentric of us as AAs [or colonized Africans] to presuppose that all colorism stems from "the man".  As you point out, in some cultures, lighter skin had little to do with a euro-centric standard of beauty and more to do with the class connotations surrounding it.  Also, caste and color aren't as closely associated as people think.  That darkest of the dark might tend to be dalits or lower caste and the lightest of the light might tend to be of higher caste, but that is by no means the rule - in different areas and traditions, a range of shades can occupy each caste.  In the Aishwarya Rai thread, several people assumed that Indians prize her as a beauty bc she represents a euro-centric/aryan model of beauty that's not typically Indian.  Funny thing is that if one is familiar with Indian religious art, even that which dates back to ancient times, Rai closely resembles typical portrayals of female deities/figures. 

And what about the Fulanis and other groups in Africa?  Is their look exalted bc of its proximity to a euro-centric standard of beauty or does this also predate colonialism? (Honest question, I'm not sure of the answer)


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## FluffyRed (Oct 11, 2009)

rosa praeclara said:


> Also, caste and color aren't as closely associated as people think.
> 
> And what about the Fulanis and other groups in Africa? Is their look exalted bc of its proximity to a euro-centric standard of beauty or does this also predate colonialism? (Honest question, I'm not sure of the answer)


 
Caste and color may not be closely linked, but what is up with all the Indians i see in movies or in schools being lighter than paper bag brown?  I *know* they come in dark shades, but they aren't publicized.  SOMEthing is up, because it didnt' used to be this way.  When i was younger, folks talked about how pretty the dark ones were, but now you _never_ see them.

And with the Nigerian men I know, Fulanis are not exalted.  Not scientific, but just what I have observed in a ltd number of cases.


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## andromeda (Oct 11, 2009)

FluffyRed said:


> Caste and color may not be closely linked, but what is up with all the Indians i see in movies or in schools being lighter than paper bag brown?  I *know* they come in dark shades, but they aren't publicized.  SOMEthing is up, because it didnt' used to be this way.  When i was younger, folks talked about how pretty the dark ones were, but now you _never_ see them.


Can't say with absolute certainty but as far as Bollywood is concerned, although it's the largest and most mainstream of Indian film genres, it's more reflective of Northern Indian sensibilities - not only in casting (where Bipasha Basu is considered dark), but in dance, music, and costumes also. And even in the old, b&w Bollywood movies, the stars tended to be quite light. I would venture to guess that in other Indian film genres, there are darker actors/actresses, but who knows? - they might be dark relative to Bollywood standards and light relative to the specific population they're marketed to.
As far as the NRI/ Indian-American student/professional pop are concerned, I see a range of light to medium dark. I see less very light (i.e. Rai, though I might be mistaking ones I pass on the street for other ethnicities) or even less indigo black "Rama" types.
Maybe the lack of visibility of the indigo-blacks has to do with the image that India wants to presents in a globalized world.  I know on an interpersonal level that being the darkest, relative to your ethnic/language[Telugu]/region/caste group can be a negative thing.  I don't know how much this attitude has worsened or how much it can be attributed to white dominance.  And if you ask an Indian person, they have their own spin on it that isn't necessarily honest or representative of the group think, so I really dunno.   



> And with the Nigerian men I know, Fulanis are not exalted.  Not scientific, but just what I have observed in a ltd number of cases.


Yeah, I probably shouldn't have used the term "exalted" but I was alluding to things I've heard over the years. One of these is that euro colonizers pitted more "euro-centric" African tribes against other ones.  Another is that African women don't bleach to look white, but to look like the Fulani or other lighter skin African tribes bc the women in those tribes are considered beautiful. erplexed


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## Bachelorette (Oct 11, 2009)

fulanis are more arab looking like the Enitreans etc.

"Fair skin" is exalted in most parts of Aftica, not "white features".


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## FluffyRed (Oct 11, 2009)

I don't buy any of the excuses on why we don't see the dark Indians anymore.  Nor do I let Europe off the hook for adding another dimension to, if not starting, the colorism in India.

There was an article in the Washington Post by an African American with a dark complexion who got treated like ISH when travelling in India.


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## andromeda (Oct 11, 2009)

Bachelorette said:


> fulanis are more arab looking like the Enitreans etc.
> 
> *"Fair skin" is exalted in most parts of Aftica,* not "white features".


And does this predate white colonialism/imperialism?  What's the basis for it?


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## andromeda (Oct 11, 2009)

FluffyRed said:


> I don't buy any of the excuses on why we don't see the dark Indians anymore.  *Nor do I let Europe off the hook for adding another dimension to, *if not starting, the colorism in India.
> 
> There was an article in the Washington Post by an African American with a dark complexion who got treated like ISH when travelling in India.


I would generally agree that they added another dimension to it.


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## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 11, 2009)

Bachelorette said:


> fulanis are more arab looking like the Enitreans etc.






rosa praeclara said:


> And what about the Fulanis and other groups in Africa? Is their look exalted bc of its proximity to a euro-centric standard of beauty or does this also predate colonialism? (Honest question, I'm not sure of the answer)





While I know that this is not the intention, I think statements like these reinforce the notion that there is only ONE way to look African - usually the stereotypical depiction of Africans (e.g. the Pygmies).  Africa is a diverse continent and there is an amazing variety of features.  Fulanis look African and whether or not their features are considered more in line with our ideals in the West - that is another story.  However, they are African and they look African.

Honestly, these two statements sparked a great discourse between me and my SO.  Why do we not state the Arabs look African?? Why are Eritraen features considered Arab?  Why are Arab features not considered to look African??  

Why are we constantly handing over what is ours, to yet another group of people?  I don't understand this.  It's almost as if we somehow feel that we cannot "own" anything...as if we are not capable of setting the standard for something.  Everything that is ours must be appropriated by others, and "others" eventually claim ownership to it...with us handing it over without protest.

We're constantly handing over ownership of what is ours.  I don't get it.

EDIT:  My SO just said it best:  If something is considered "good" or "beautiful" we cannot attribute it to ourselves.  We first think, "what are the references of beauty?..." and then immediately attribute it to being Eurocentric, Arab, and so on...


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## FluffyRed (Oct 11, 2009)

AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> Honestly, these two statements sparked a great discourse between me and my SO. Why do we not state the Arabs look African?? Why are Eritraen features considered Arab? Why are Arab features not considered to look African??
> 
> Why are we constantly handing over what is ours, to yet another group of people? I don't understand this.
> 
> EDIT: My SO just said it best: If something is considered "good" or "beautiful" we cannot attribute it to ourselves. We first think, "what are the references of beauty?..." and then immediately attribute it to being Eurocentric, Arab, and so on...


 
well, there _are_ features that are unmixed African features.  Many Arabs are mixed.  You can say they have an appearance that is associated with North African people, but..

I don't find Eurocentric or Arab features to be the "references of beauty,' btw.


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## andromeda (Oct 11, 2009)

AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> While I know that this is not the intention, I think statements like these reinforce the notion that there is only ONE way to look African - usually the stereotypical depiction of Africans (e.g. the Pygmies).  Africa is a diverse continent and there is an amazing variety of features.  Fulanis look African and whether or not their features are considered more in line with our ideals in the West - that is another story.  However, they are African and they look African.
> 
> Honestly, these two statements sparked a great discourse between me and my SO.  Why do we not state the Arabs look African?? Why are Eritraen features considered Arab?  Why are Arab features not considered to look African??
> 
> ...


Actually, I completely agree with you and have had the very same discussion with myself (no, I'm not crazy) and with others.  That was exact my point in asking the question - that their looks/beauty might be just as much genuinenly African as Aishwarya's is genuinely Indian and that all too often we see things through an ethnocentric lens that projects our Western view onto things and muddles "stereotypical" with "typical".      

But apparently, perception is circuitous, bc just as my perception (which happens to agree with yours) framed my question, your perception framed how you interpreted it and what you inferred from it.  Yet another case of projection.   (I'm not saying this snidely, it's just interesting how that happens.)


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## FluffyRed (Oct 11, 2009)

rosa praeclara said:


> Actually, I completely agree with you and have had the very same discussion with myself (no, I'm not crazy) and with others. That was exact my point in asking the question - that their looks/beauty might be just as much genuinenly African as Aishwarya's is genuinely Indian and that all too often we see things through an ethnocentric lens that projects our Western view onto things and muddles "stereotypical" with "typical".


 
Aishwarya is clearly mixed.  She is genuinely Indian like Vanessa Williams is genuinely black.  

It is not necessary to dilute someone's ethnicity to the nth degree, to the point that you can barely see anything but Euro, to find a person that is "the most beautiful," imo.  Case in point:





IMO, Aishwarya is the most beautiful euro, not the most beautiful Indian.


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## Maracujá (Oct 11, 2009)

FluffyRed said:


> *Aishwarya is clearly mixed.*  She is genuinely Indian like Vanessa Williams is genuinely black.
> 
> It is not necessary to dilute someone's ethnicity to the nth degree, to the point that you can barely see anything but Euro, to find a person that is "the most beautiful," imo.



You don't think a 100% Indian person can look like her?


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## FluffyRed (Oct 11, 2009)

Maracujá said:


> You don't think a 100% Indian person can look like her?


 
just like vanessa williams, yes she can have two Indian parents, but there's a lot of Euro in her, genetically.  what generation, who knows?  that's just a semantic distinction.


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## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 11, 2009)

FluffyRed said:


> well, there _are_ features that are unmixed African features.  Many Arabs are mixed.




Our features are African.  If there are features in Africans that are also present in Arabs, then they have OUR features.  They don't own or have some monopoly on African features.  

These are ours and if Arabs happen to also share them for some reason, then they should consider themselves fortunate to be blessed with our beauty.


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## BostonMaria (Oct 11, 2009)

WOW you guys have great posts and I'm really learning/enjoying this.  If nothing else, Chris Rock will make all women of color think about the things they do and WHY they do it.

My best friend in HS was (is) a white Cambodian. She told me that the dark Cambodians were mostly poor and the white Cambodians were rich and would look down upon the dark skinned Cambodians. So this isn't just an American black and white thing, this is much deeper than that.


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## andromeda (Oct 11, 2009)

FluffyRed said:


> Aishwarya is clearly mixed.  She is genuinely Indian like Vanessa Williams is genuinely black.


I have to respectfully disagree.  She is not "clearly mixed" and the comparison to Vanessa is fallacious.  Based on your comparison, I'm assuming that you mean "mixed" to mean w/ white blood within the last 200-300 years - please clarify.  Aishwarya and the many Indians who look like her are Indian.  The issue is that people's definition of what constitutes "Indian" is narrow.  Like I said earlier, if you look back to the art of ancient India [or more appropriately, the regions that make up what is now known as "India], you'll see plenty of deities and people that look like her. Taking into consideration the African populations that were bought to the Americas and the history of race relations in America, Vanessa Williams is clearly mixed (her family actually comes from the same small Long Island town as my grandma's).


> It is not necessary to dilute someone's ethnicity to the nth degree, to the point that you can barely see anything but Euro, to find a person that is "the most beautiful," imo.


I agree but you're conflating one issue (a genuine Indian who appears to the untrained non-Indian eye to be "mixed") with the other (prizing the beauty of those whose features appear diluted compared to the stereotypical appearance of others in their ethnic/racial group).


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## SND411 (Oct 11, 2009)

AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> While I know that this is not the intention, I think statements like these reinforce the notion that there is only ONE way to look African - usually the stereotypical depiction of Africans (e.g. the Pygmies).  *Africa is a diverse continent and there is an amazing variety of features.  Fulanis look African and whether or not their features are considered more in line with our ideals in the West - that is another story.  However, they are African and they look African.*
> 
> Honestly, these two statements sparked a great discourse between me and my SO.  Why do we not state the Arabs look African?? Why are Eritraen features considered Arab?  Why are Arab features not considered to look African??
> 
> ...




EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!! They existed prior to Europeans so I do not understand this. 

It all comes down to racist European categorization of African peoples. Look at the Khoisan. They have the nerve to put them in a seperate race of "Capoid" just because their hair and eyes are different. Even though it has been proven that they are RELATED to other Africans on the continent. I've even seen attempts to label many Tuareg people "white" when they skin color was jet-black.
Africa is really diverse, and these Eurocentric lies about "mixing" with other people is laughable? Who in the world came from Europe to mix with these peoples thousands of years ago? LOL!


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## BostonMaria (Oct 11, 2009)

Maracujá said:


> You don't think a 100% Indian person can look like her?



She's absolutely beautiful, but I would have to say that 99% of the Indian woman I know don't look like her.  I don't know any Indian women with greenish/blue eyes http://www.topnews.in/files/Aishwarya-Rai_2.jpg  Not to say they don't exist, I just don't know any

Most of my Indian co-workers and neighbors have dark skin, long black beautiful hair


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## SND411 (Oct 11, 2009)

People, even in some Vedic texts, it states a preference for lighter skin. So colorism is much OLDER and DEEPER than a result of British colonization.


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## SND411 (Oct 11, 2009)

FluffyRed said:


> *Aishwarya is clearly mixed.*  She is genuinely Indian like Vanessa Williams is genuinely black.
> 
> It is not necessary to dilute someone's ethnicity to the nth degree, to the point that you can barely see anything but Euro, to find a person that is "the most beautiful," imo.  Case in point:
> 
> ...



Trust me, she isn't. I've seen pictures of both her parents.


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## FluffyRed (Oct 11, 2009)

rosa praeclara said:


> I have to respectfully disagree. She is not "clearly mixed" and the comparison to Vanessa is fallacious. *Based on your comparison, I'm assuming that you mean "mixed" to mean w/ white blood within the last 200-300 years* *- please clarify*. Aishwarya and the many Indians who look like her are Indian. The issue is that people's definition of what constitutes "Indian" is narrow. *Like I said earlier, if you look back to the art of ancient India [or more appropriately, the regions that make up what is now known as "India], you'll see plenty of deities and people that look like her. *Taking into consideration the African populations that were bought to the Americas and the history of race relations in America, Vanessa Williams is clearly mixed (her family actually comes from the same small Long Island town as my grandma's).
> 
> *I agree but you're conflating one issue (a genuine Indian who appears to the untrained non-Indian eye to be "mixed") with the other (prizing the beauty of those whose features appear diluted compared to the stereotypical appearance of others in their ethnic/racial group).*


 
*With white blood ever.*

*That it exists in art does not mean it is not attributable to outsiders.*

*Two people from ethnic groups known to be dark, who are prized as extremely beautiful, who have Euro features.  Colonialism at work.  what's to conflate?*


----------



## FluffyRed (Oct 11, 2009)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> Trust me, she isn't. I've seen pictures of both her parents.


 
Have you seen all of her ancestors?


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## andromeda (Oct 11, 2009)

FluffyRed said:


> IMO, *Aishwarya is the most beautiful euro,* not the most beautiful Indian.


Whoa, whoa, whoa!  This statement reminds me of when Ash was interviewed on 60 minutes and the WM interviewer paid her a "compliment" - "you're a Greek beauty with an Indian heart".erplexed  I think his [not necessarily your] comment goes back to the assertion that AsianAfricanPrincess made - heavens forbid a certain group display a type of beauty that challenges the stereotypes and perceived "monopoly" that another group holds.  Can't have that! So Ash, with her light skin and green eyes can't just be taken as an Indian beauty (believe me, her beauty is quite typical of Indian tradition, esp in certain regions), no she must be "Euro". 

As far as her being the most beautiful Indian, the concept in of itself is absurd.  But I will once again emphasize that she is quite representative of one of the archetypes of Indian beauty/looks.

[And just so you know, Fluffy, I'm not getting heated.  I just think this topic makes for very interesting discussion.)


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## BostonMaria (Oct 11, 2009)

rosa praeclara said:


> Whoa, whoa, whoa!  This statement reminds me of when Ash was interviewed on 60 minutes and the WM interviewer paid her a "compliment" - "you're a Greek beauty with an Indian heart".erplexed  I think his [not necessarily your] comment goes back to the assertion that AsianAfricanPrincess made - heavens forbid a certain group display a type of beauty that challenges the stereotypes and perceived "monopoly" that another group holds.  Can't have that! So Ash, with her light skin and green eyes can't just be taken as an Indian beauty (believe me, her beauty is quite typical of Indian tradition, esp in certain regions), no she must be "Euro".
> 
> As far as her being the most beautiful Indian, the concept in of itself is absurd.  But I will once again emphasize that she is quite representative of one of the archetypes of Indian beauty/looks.
> 
> [And just so you know, Fluffy, I'm not getting heated.  I just think this topic makes for very interesting discussion.)



rosa praeclara, are you Indian? I meant to ask this months ago. I'm just curious so please don't take offense.
Yes she is absolutely beautiful. I don't know if she represents Indian women as a whole. I understand what  you're saying though. You can find a white, blue eyed Dominican but she won't represent the island as a whole. Most women are dark like me.


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## FluffyRed (Oct 11, 2009)

rosa praeclara said:


> Whoa, whoa, whoa! This statement reminds me of when Ash was interviewed on 60 minutes and the WM interviewer paid her a "compliment" - "you're a Greek beauty with an Indian heart".erplexed I think his [not neccesarily your] comment goes back to the assertion that AsianAfricanPrincess made - heavens forbid a certain group display a type of beauty of challenges the stereotypes and perceived "monopoly" that another group holds. Can't have that! So Ash, with her light skin and green eyes can't just be taken as an Indian beauty (believe me, her beauty is quite typical of Indian tradition, esp in certain regions), no she must be "Euro".
> 
> As far as her being the most beautiful Indian, the concept in of itself is absurd. But I will once again emphasize that she is quite representative of one of the archetypes of Indian beauty/looks.
> 
> [And just so you know, Fluffy, I'm not getting heated. I just think this topic makes for very interesting discussion.)


 
Cool.  But I don't think yt features are a "power" that can be held as a monopoly.  They only have value because we (currently) believe they do.  They're really not all that.

And if she is "representative of an archetype" that's only evidence that outsiders were all up and through there, imo.  

It has too much in common with the Hutu/tutsi thing, LS DS among AAs and erbody else's colorism issues for me to believe otherwise.  If it were truly _random_, there would be _some_ place where dark skin is more prized.


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## SND411 (Oct 11, 2009)

FluffyRed said:


> Have you seen all of her ancestors?



That's true. I haven't. But, I believe she isn't mixed. I feel Everything seen as unique is always attributed to Europeans somehow. It's silly.


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## FluffyRed (Oct 11, 2009)

I think it's interesting, just looking at a map, where South Indians and Southern Africans are the darkest and in both places the north has the lighter people, and the northern (mixing pot) happens to be more easily accessible to others.  In Europe, it's opposite.  The south is the Mixing pot and the Italians are the darkest, the most remote, northernmost are the lightest.

Arguably, I would call Arabs _themselves _Africans.  It's arbitrary where the "Middle East" lines were drawn.  Call them Africans.  It's semantics.  They still happen to have a lot in common with people who are closer geographically than they do with people who are on the same continent but in less accessible regions.


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## Bachelorette (Oct 11, 2009)

AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> While I know that this is not the intention, I think statements like these reinforce the notion that there is only ONE way to look African - usually the stereotypical depiction of Africans (e.g. the Pygmies).  Africa is a diverse continent and there is an amazing variety of features.  Fulanis look African and whether or not their features are considered more in line with our ideals in the West - that is another story.  However, they are African and they look African.
> 
> .



You say this like Fulanis, Somalians, etc have no link to Arabs when they do.

Not like we're picking random Africans and claiming they look Arabs, the ones that have HISTORY with Arabs will most likely have the features. Simple as that.


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## andromeda (Oct 11, 2009)

FluffyRed said:


> *With white blood ever.*


 
Well, I'd have to ask what your definition of "white" blood.  Are the Aryans, Mughals, Persians or native Indian groups that have been in India for eons "white" bc they happen to have some traits in common with Euros?  For that matter, is any Indian whose features  fall outside the realm of stereotype considered "mixed"?  This thinking is predicated on a very narrow view of what "undiluted" Indians look like.  There are various ethnic groups that comprise India.  There is no one or even, two, three, or four Indian "looks".  There are many "looks" and Ash and people who look like her represent one of them, which predates euros.


> *That it exists in art does not mean it is not attributable to outsiders.*


True.  But my point is that in native depictions of their own deities, myths and daily life, her look is quite common.  I use art bc photos only back but so far and bc some people might refute a snapshot of the current Indian population as not representative of "undiluted" India (although it mostly is).



> *Two people from ethnic groups known to be dark, who are prized as extremely beautiful, who have Euro features. Colonialism at work. what's to conflate?*


And therein lies the issue.  Known to be dark by who?  There is an incredible range of skin tones and phenotypes in the Indian population.  To assume that bc Ash happens to have features in common with Euro is "colonialism at work" and why she's considered beautiful is tenuous - plausible, but tenuous.  Even if we do accept that this is why her beauty is exalted, this notion doesn't detract from the fact that she's genuinely Indian and her beauty is representative of such.  That's where the conflation is coming in - seeking to define the extent of her "Indian-ness" based on whether or not she happens to have features in common with the Europeans who once colonized India.  It's not logically sound and history and reality proves it to be untrue.


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## Bachelorette (Oct 11, 2009)

Lol who's that model in that pic fluffy, I wanna find out her makeup.


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## andromeda (Oct 11, 2009)

BostonMaria said:


> rosa praeclara, are you Indian? I meant to ask this months ago. I'm just curious so please don't take offense.
> Yes she is absolutely beautiful. I don't know if she represents Indian women as a whole. I understand what  you're saying though. You can find a white, blue eyed Dominican but she won't represent the island as a whole. Most women are dark like me.


 No offense taken.  Nope, I'm not.  I meant to say in an earlier post that "I really dunno bc I have no authority on this, as I'm not Indian".  I would say that I'm an "Indophile".  I have relatives and friends who are Indo-Caribbean and I have Indian friends.  But that's about it...


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## FluffyRed (Oct 11, 2009)

And here's a breakout of Europe.

Following this logic, you would expect the parts that touch Africa to be associated with darker people. Turkish, Spanish, Italians, Greeks, all look like that which we call "middle easterners," imo.  Armenia is somewhere in there, for Kim K. nem.


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## FluffyRed (Oct 11, 2009)

Bachelorette said:


> Lol who's that model in that pic fluffy, I wanna find out her makeup.


 
Agbani Darego!! Miss something from Africa


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## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 11, 2009)

Bachelorette said:


> You say this like Fulanis, Somalians, etc have no link to Arabs when they do.
> 
> Not like we're picking random Africans and claiming they look Arabs, the ones that have HISTORY with Arabs will most likely have the features. Simple as that.




If you reread my post, I speak of the "ownership" of these "features".  Why do they "look Arab"??  (I was speaking of the Eritraens.)  Why can't the Arabs not look Eritraen or African??  Is it because we're not capable of owning those features? 

I didn't go reading back, but I'm pretty sure that I never mentioned Fulanis and Arabs together...because that's something that I would never get into on this board.  I've learned quickly from my SO that much of what Africans are telling their own or being told about "contact" with others and about themselves is often based on what is told to them by missionaries and past colonizers.  So I would not get into that on this board...I'd prefer to save that for an academic setting.


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## andromeda (Oct 11, 2009)

It is interesting.  I think Ash is actually from a coastal Southern town and there are ethnic groups who tend to be light in South India also. Proximity to the equator obviously plays a role in the skin tones of populations but people are always moving and/or mixing, so proximity to the coast and land routes, along with settling and dispersion patterns also play a role in appearance.  



FluffyRed said:


> I think it's interesting, just looking at a map, where South Indians and Southern Africans are the darkest and in both places the north has the lighter people, and the northern (mixing pot) happens to be more easily accessible to others.  In Europe, it's opposite.  The south is the Mixing pot and the Italians are the darkest, the most remote, northernmost are the lightest.
> 
> Arguably, I would call Arabs _themselves _Africans.  It's arbitrary where the "Middle East" lines were drawn.  Call them Africans.  It's semantics.  They still happen to have a lot in common with people who are closer geographically than they do with people who are on the same continent but in less accessible regions.


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## FluffyRed (Oct 11, 2009)

rosa praeclara said:


> And therein lies the issue. Known to be dark by who? There is an incredible range of skin tones and phenotypes in the Indian population.


Because the North Indians are in a geographic location where a lot of mixing has gone on.



rosa praeclara said:


> Because they're mixed, especially in the north.  Looking at the map, what's stopping outsiders from crossing those borders? To assume that bc Ash happens to have features in common with Euro is "colonialism at work" and why she's considered beautiful is tenuous - plausible, but tenuous.


Now, you know...  She is very beautiful, but tons of girls, just as beautiful with a darker complexion are not even on the worldwide radar.



rosa praeclara said:


> *she's genuinely Indian and her beauty is representative of such*. That's where the conflation is coming in - seeking to define the extent of her "Indian-ness" based on whether or not she happens to have features in common with the Europeans who once colonized India. It's not logically sound and history and reality proves it to be untrue.


 
As far as her appearance, she is just as genuinely European or Middle Eastern, IMO.  Where someone drew the lines didn't stop folks from getting together.


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## andromeda (Oct 11, 2009)

Sorry, y'all!


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## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 11, 2009)

Bachelorette said:


> Not like we're picking random Africans and claiming they look Arabs, the ones that have HISTORY with Arabs will most likely have the features. Simple as that.




Sorry, I just wanted to ask one more question...especially since some people thanked you on this: you mentioned, "the ones that have HISTORY with Arabs will most likely have the features".  Do the Arabs have their features?  Or do they (any group) have Arab features?  If so, why??  Why do the Arabs not have THEIR (Africans) features?  

Again, I don't understand this...


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## almond eyes (Oct 11, 2009)

That's not true necessarily. All of my African family history has been passed down through the generations, mouth to mouth and some of it also recorded so not all Africans have had their history passed to them from the colonizers or missionaries . For example, in my family our line came down from Sudan and migrated to West Africa. 

Best,
Almond Eyes


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## SND411 (Oct 11, 2009)

Bachelorette said:


> You say this like Fulanis, Somalians, etc have no link to Arabs when they do.
> 
> Not like we're picking random Africans and claiming they look Arabs, the ones that have HISTORY with Arabs will most likely have the features. Simple as that.



DNA has proven that these populations are not "mixed."


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## SND411 (Oct 11, 2009)

almond eyes said:


> That's not true necessarily. All of my African family history has been passed down through the generations, mouth to mouth and some of it also recorded so not all Africans have had their history passed to them from the colonizers or missionaries . For example, in my family our line came down from Sudan and migrated to West Africa.
> 
> Best,
> Almond Eyes



Are you Hausa?


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## FluffyRed (Oct 11, 2009)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> DNA has proven that these populations are not "mixed."


 
I don't know about Fulani people, but regarding Somalis and Ethiopians, I'll believe my eyes before I believe scientific findings.  Scientist have "new findings" every day.





Everywhere else in the world, where there are no major barriers, people get together and mix.  But here, we're supposed to believe the difference in appearance and _why_ it occurred _where_ it did is just a coincidence?

Not buying it.


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## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 11, 2009)

almond eyes said:


> That's not true necessarily. All of my African family history has been passed down through the generations, mouth to mouth and some of it also recorded so* not all Africans* have had their history passed to them from the colonizers or missionaries . For example, in my family our line came down from Sudan and migrated to West Africa.
> 
> Best,
> Almond Eyes




Hey Almond Eyes    In my original statement, I said the following:  "...so that *much* of what Africans are telling..." 

I think it's pretty self-explanatory that it's impossible to say "all" anyway.  But, I used the word "much" meaning "some" or "many", etc.  

I feel like I sound sarcastic for saying that, but it is not my intention at all.  I just wanted to point out that I never said "all" anyway.


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## SND411 (Oct 11, 2009)

FluffyRed said:


> I don't know about Fulani people, but regarding Somalis and Ethiopians,* I'll believe my eyes before I believe scientific findings.*  Scientist have "new findings" every day.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So what about the Aboringines in Australia or Negritos in Asia? They have dark skin like Africans but they are more closely related to Asian populations. Sometimes what you see does not tell the whole story.


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## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 11, 2009)

rosa praeclara said:


> Sorry, y'all!



This is starting to be a sad thread, but it started out great.  I'm disappointed (and it's so depressing) to see that we repeatedly fall back on this sense of inferiority or these stereotypical notions of what African can or can not be. (it's Arab, not African!...it's Eurocentric...not Fulani!)  It's incredible.  

Black women, please do not pay your money to see C. Rock's mockumentary.  Women deserve to be treated with understanding and love...not finger-pointing, mocking and the like.  

If you'd love to see such a film that explores our beauty and hair challenges, stigmas, and skill without mocking us, I would suggest Regina Kimbel's "My Nappy Roots".  (I'm considering writing to her to encourage her to somehow sponsor viewings of this film for LHCF members...I'm not sure of how we can make this work though, so any ideas would be greatly appreciated)  

We deserve better, folks...


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## jamaraa (Oct 11, 2009)

FluffyRed said:


> First bold the caste system may predate contact with Europe, but was *color* associated with it before contact with Europe? It used to be that you were born into a caste, from what I understood, not that having heavily Euro features made you better and more presentable, which is more what I'm seeing today.
> 
> Second bold, I think they did more than sell it, but, true we have the choice today


 
Yes, colorism is apart of the ancient caste system of India. The Brahmins (upper caste) are far lighter (usually) than the Dalits (untouchables), but the Dalit class is the one that handles the Hindu funerals too (ie cremations). Of course, not all Dalits are dark nor all Brahmins fair, but color issues are definitely surrounded by labor/lesiure issues. I can't think is accidental nor is it something that came w/ Euros. This is also true in other places, notably Japan. They literally painted their faces white and still do (geisha/kabuki). The Japanese delibrately avoided contact w/ outsiders until 1853. It's in evidence of art and literature far before most Japanese ever laid eyes on White folks. The same is true for India.

Unlike w/ Black and Native Americans, most colonized people never had any or much contact w/ Whites, so while they may have dealt w/ some of the runoff of colonialism directly, most didn't experience it up close and personal like we did. Their color/beauty norms pretty much remained intact pre contact. The Japanese kept most of their beauty norms in place til the American occupation post 1945. This is a VERY recent thing for them.


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## FluffyRed (Oct 11, 2009)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> So what about the Aboringines in Australia or Negritos in Asia? They have dark skin like Africans but they are more closely related to Asian populations. Sometimes what you see does not tell the whole story.


 
I'm not discussing the origins of all dark people.  I've never heard of Negritos and don't know much about the history of Aborigines.  This has nothing to do with the fact that _where there are no major barriers, people get together and mix._


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## jamaraa (Oct 11, 2009)

rosa praeclara said:


> Thanks so much for making this point! I find it interesting how people are quick to revel in the colorism issues of others, esp Indians. *IMO, it's rather ethnocentric of us as AAs [or colonized Africans] to presuppose that all colorism stems from "the man".* As you point out, in some cultures, lighter skin had little to do with a euro-centric standard of beauty and more to do with the class connotations surrounding it. Also, caste and color aren't as closely associated as people think. That darkest of the dark might tend to be dalits or lower caste and the lightest of the light might tend to be of higher caste, but that is by no means the rule - in different areas and traditions, a range of shades can occupy each caste. In the Aishwarya Rai thread, several people assumed that Indians prize her as a beauty bc she represents a euro-centric/aryan model of beauty that's not typically Indian. Funny thing is that if one is familiar with Indian religious art, even that which dates back to ancient times, Rai closely resembles typical portrayals of female deities/figures.
> 
> And what about the Fulanis and other groups in Africa? Is their look exalted bc of its proximity to a euro-centric standard of beauty or does this also predate colonialism? (Honest question, I'm not sure of the answer)


 
Aishwarya Rai seems quite typical of an Indian to me. They come in all different colors. If anything, she looks more like an ancient Hindu princess in the saga painting than anything Euro. Her beauty is VERY Indian.

About the Fulanis and the like, I don't know who to answer your question because I don't know who specifically exalts their beauty (other than themselves ). Exalted by whom....Blacks/Whites in America, other peoples in Africa?

I love what you said about the imperialism of this assumption. It's strange that we think other people have exactly the same experiences we do and should feel about their experiences as we do. That's a very Anglo-imperialist way of thinking.


----------



## FluffyRed (Oct 11, 2009)

jamaraa said:


> Yes, colorism is apart of the ancient caste system of India. The Brahmins (upper caste) are far lighter (usually) than the Dalits (untouchables). I can't think is accidental nor is it something that came w/ Euros.


 
Looking at the map when, exactly, was India free of outside influence?  Eurasia was considered one continent until pretty recently.  It's certainly one land mass.  Just because the term colonialism refers to a specific behavior and time period, it does not mean that violent Europeans didn't exert their influence at other times and in other ways.  

Japanese are naturally pale, so slightly altering oneself to an extreme of what one already is is not the same, imo, as idolizing a standard which most of your ethnicity cannot meet.


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## jamaraa (Oct 11, 2009)

FluffyRed said:


> I don't buy any of the excuses on why we don't see the dark Indians anymore. Nor do I let Europe off the hook for adding another dimension to, if not starting, the colorism in India.
> 
> *There was an article in the Washington Post by an African American with a dark complexion who got treated like ISH when travelling in India.*


 
Dare I say that's one person's experience and you can't judge a HUGE society based on one person's experience of it? Was she treated badly because she was dark or because she was AA, or because she was an American? I don't have enough info to judge, but it's possible is was one or all of the above, esp. depending on when and where she visited.

Judging India negatively by one or even a few person's bad experiences is the definition of stereotyping. India has like 1 billion people and they only met a tiny fraction of them.


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## jamaraa (Oct 11, 2009)

FluffyRed said:


> Looking at the map when, exactly, was India free of outside influence? Eurasia was considered one continent until pretty recently. It's certainly one land mass. Just because the term colonialism refers to a specific behavior and time period, it does not mean that violent Europeans didn't exert their influence at other times and in other ways.
> 
> Japanese are naturally pale, so slightly altering oneself to an extreme of what one already is is not the same, imo, as idolizing a standard which most of your ethnicity cannot meet.


 
India was never free of outside influences, but we're talking about modern colonialism and colorist issues are we not? If you wanna talk about Eurasia, what about China's influence on India, Afghan's, etc....that outside influence has never been solely one group of people.

LOL...are you putting the ancient Central Asian/Euro people in the same category as the Victorian British? Come on. There's no envidence I can see that the ancient steppes people had any concept of 'race" as we know it.


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## FluffyRed (Oct 11, 2009)

jamaraa said:


> Judging India negatively by one or even a few person's bad experiences is the definition of stereotyping. India has like 1 billion people and they only met a tiny fraction of them.


 
One's person's bad experiences (and he said he was told they were based on his complexion) in addition to the whole industry of Bollywood?  I think it's safe to say there are major colorism issues in India.



jamaraa said:


> Aishwarya Rai seems quite typical of an Indian to me. They come in all different colors. If anything, she looks more like an ancient Hindu princess in the saga painting than anything Euro. Her beauty is VERY Indian.


When's the last time we saw a chocolate Indian female, for comparison?  



jamaraa said:


> I love what you said about the imperialism of this assumption. It's strange that we think other people have exactly the same experiences we do and should feel about their experiences as we do. That's a very Anglo-imperialist way of thinking.


It's not as much an assumption on my part as it is a hypothesis.  Based on *x *causes of *y *behavior in other situations, it's a good bet that *y *behavior might have been caused by the same *x*.  Still needs to be supported or not.  I'm no historian, but I would lean toward Euros as a likely cause of colorism in dark people.



jamaraa said:


> LOL...are you putting the ancient Central Asian/Euro people in the same category as the Victorian British? Come on. There's no envidence I can see that the ancient steppes people had any concept of 'race" as we know it.


Not putting anyone in any category, and dominance of one group over another, and the resultant association of one group with power and dominance can occur independent of the concept of "race" as we know it.


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## anon123 (Oct 11, 2009)

rosa praeclara said:


> Sorry, y'all!



The last time I looked at this thread we were talking about the movie.  Today I just go to the last page to read the most recent comments and I'm like what?   We're debating which Indians are mixed?  Someone PM me when all of this has been decided and stood up to some rigorous debate and I'll be back! 

I think we're all going to need a lesson on the migration path of humans out of Africa and the times humans have come into contact with each other, and a clear cut definition of which race is what (well, that's going to be problematic right there).


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## jamaraa (Oct 11, 2009)

AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> While I know that this is not the intention, I think statements like these reinforce the notion that there is only ONE way to look African - usually the stereotypical depiction of Africans (e.g. the Pygmies). Africa is a diverse continent and there is an amazing variety of features. Fulanis look African and whether or not their features are considered more in line with our ideals in the West - that is another story. However, they are African and they look African.
> 
> *Honestly, these two statements sparked a great discourse between me and my SO. Why do we not state the Arabs look African?? Why are Eritraen features considered Arab? Why are Arab features not considered to look African?? *
> 
> ...


 
Why?! Well because some stupid Victorian White colonialists decided to divide Africa up between sub Saharan and above the Sahara (like people don't actually live IN the Saraha too), Hametic/Semitic vs Negro types.  Yes because the line in the sand (literally) is that absolute. There are Black types in and above the Sahara and Arab types below it....they are all Africans therefore "look" African by default. 

This is where the colonialist thinking comes in. Blacks are v\by definition people who look like Zulus or Ibos, while Arabs must look another way and come from X places. Oy vey. LOL...The Koi-San people (ie the Bushmen) always defied South Africa's attempt to classify them...they couldn't decide if they were Coloured or Blacks. They're still Africans, right? See how stupid this all is? The colonalism is trying to use these insane stadards to classify these folks according to the way these Victorians did. Need I remind that there was a time at anyone from Africa was referred to as an Ethiop, a Moor, etc....?


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## andromeda (Oct 11, 2009)

jamaraa said:


> Aishwarya Rai seems quite typical of an Indian to me. They come in all different colors.* If anything, she looks more like an ancient Hindu princess in the saga painting than anything Euro. Her beauty is VERY Indian.*


Thanks is not enough, Jamaraa.  This resemblance is* exactly* what I was referring to.   



> About the Fulanis and the like, I don't know who to answer your question because I don't know who specifically exalts their beauty (other than themselves ). Exalted by whom....Blacks/Whites in America, other peoples in Africa?


The questions that you raise do answer my question in a way.  Biases, experiences, and hearsay can heavily influence how an outsider (such as myself) views "foreign" beauty and interprets the indigenous attitudes surrounding it. 



> I love what you said about the imperialism of this assumption. It's strange that we think other people have exactly the same experiences we do and should feel about their experiences as we do. That's a very Anglo-imperialist way of thinking.


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## jamaraa (Oct 11, 2009)

rosa praeclara said:


> Actually, I completely agree with you and have had the very same discussion with myself (no, I'm not crazy) and with others. *That was exact my point in asking the question - that their looks/beauty might be just as much genuinenly African as Aishwarya's is genuinely Indian and that all too often we see things through an ethnocentric lens that projects our Western view onto things and muddles "stereotypical" with "typical". *
> 
> But apparently, perception is circuitous, bc just as my perception (which happens to agree with yours) framed my question, your perception framed how you interpreted it and what you inferred from it. Yet another case of projection.  (I'm not saying this snidely, it's just interesting how that happens.)


 
This is one drop rule thinking....very American. (Not even the Brits did the one dropist thing)  People who have X looks and features are "pure" (regardless of whatever genetics) and people who have Y looks are  mixed (regardless of whatever genetics). This is the essence of one dropist thinking. To apply this to another society simply fails to take many things into account. Shoot, it doesn't even work for American society.


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## jamaraa (Oct 11, 2009)

I've known several people from Pakistan w/ her features, including green eyes and slightly lighter than black hair. I believe they were Punjabis. Then there are the Afghans where her features are incredibly common. These features are quite associated w/ the Pashtun peoples. Pakistan used to be India until 1947, so the example works.   Let's not forget tribes and regions. People look different in different areas in very old societies UNLIKE America. 



BostonMaria said:


> She's absolutely beautiful, but I would have to say that 99% of the Indian woman I know don't look like her. I don't know any Indian women with greenish/blue eyes http://www.topnews.in/files/Aishwarya-Rai_2.jpg Not to say they don't exist, I just don't know any
> 
> Most of my Indian co-workers and neighbors have dark skin, long black beautiful hair


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## andromeda (Oct 11, 2009)

AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> This is starting to be a sad thread, but it started out great.  I'm disappointed (and it's so depressing) to see that we repeatedly fall back on this sense of inferiority or these stereotypical notions of what African can or can not be. (it's Arab, not African!...it's Eurocentric...not Fulani!)  It's incredible.
> 
> Black women, please do not pay your money to see C. Rock's mockumentary.  Women deserve to be treated with understanding and love...not finger-pointing, mocking and the like.
> 
> ...


I won't be paying money to see his movie in the theatre (nor will I be bootlegging it); I might get it on Netflix.  Judging from the clips and reaction I've seen thus far, there's already a backlash against CR's movie.  If Kimbel [or her pr people] are on point, she should see this as an opportunity to build interest through the black beauty/hair/womanist blogosphere and the black hair care community.  

As far as viewings go, perhaps we could craft a letter/petition and have members volunteer as regional liaisons to coordinate viewings. Just a suggestion, I don't know about a specific plan of action.  I had the pleasure of attending Heads Up: A Soulful Celebration on Our Hairatage in the spring and think that a comprehensive, genuine look at black hair is an enriching experience and more deserving of my time and money than a documentary rife with exploitation and mockery.


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## Kurlee (Oct 11, 2009)

AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> While I know that this is not the intention*, I think statements like these reinforce the notion that there is only ONE way to look African - usually the stereotypical depiction of Africans (e.g. the Pygmies).*  Africa is a diverse continent and there is an amazing variety of features.  Fulanis look African and whether or not their features are considered more in line with our ideals in the West - that is another story.  However, they are African and they look African.
> 
> Honestly, these two statements sparked a great discourse between me and my SO.  Why do we not state the Arabs look African?? Why are Eritraen features considered Arab?  Why are Arab features not considered to look African??
> 
> ...


Girl, I just want to hug you for this post!!! People need to stop looking at Africans as a monolithic group.  How can a huge continent like Africa only have ONE type of people in every country, region, etc? That is not logical. Europeans can be fair (nordic) or tanned (southern italians, portuguese, spanish) can have any eye colour or hair colour and yet, Africans are all dark skinned, 4b, with big noses, full lips and huge butts?erplexed Oh and don't forget the loin cloth too. I'm so tired of this narrow, stereotypical view of Africa. Africans are a diverse group of people and range in shades, hair type, body type, eye colour, etc.  We as blacks need to acknowledge this. We have been so indoctrinated with these negative ideas, we have become totally unable to rationalize and understand who we are and define ourselves. Many in here say we have a choice and choose to reject the assertions of what blackness is. I disagree. Many of us are not armed with the knowledge to even realize that our natural perceptions and assumptions are very wrong.

I also can't stand the whole "mixed" thing.  When people say that to help "explain" hair or skin, it is an unconscious way of saying, blackness is not good enough to have "x" hair or skin colour or features, so who else (white, chinese, spanish, indian) "gave" that to you.  It speaks VOLUMES about how that person defines "blackness". It's like wearing your self-hatred on your sleeve.  The whole thing is so sad and most are too defensive to fix it.


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## jamaraa (Oct 11, 2009)

Traditional Aremenia is in Western Turkey (ie Asia)...given the recent hisotyr (ie 1918) Aremenia has been "moved" to a Soviet area (ie Central Europe). Aremenian people are technically Asians however. 

Nah, Spanish and Greeks DO NOT look like "Middle Easterners" to me, unless you're talking about some Levantine people's (Syria, Lebanese, Jordanians Palestinians)....even then, not really. I don't think you'd get a Greek or Spaniard mixed up w/ soemone from Saudia Arabia or the Gulf States! 

OK, so who do the Roma (ie Gypsies) favor? Just asking for fun.



FluffyRed said:


> And here's a breakout of Europe.
> 
> Following this logic, you would expect the parts that touch Africa to be associated with darker people. Turkish, Spanish, Italians, Greeks, all look like that which we call "middle easterners," imo. Armenia is somewhere in there, for Kim K. nem.


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## FluffyRed (Oct 11, 2009)

Personally, I'm interested in more diversity.

If I'm told someone is the "most beautiful" Indian, they should not be confuseable with Greeks, Middle Easterners, North Africans...  They should have an Indian phenotype (not from the highly mixed part of india) and be very pretty, like this girl below.  Aish ain't got nothing on her.


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## jamaraa (Oct 11, 2009)

Yes, but what are your eyes influenced by? This is clearly Anglo American one drop-ism applied to a culture that has a very different history to our own. Sitting up and deciding what race, nationality, etc a person belongs to based on physical traits. Only DNA can really tell the story, not the eyeball test.

BTW, it's said in terms of science that Ethiopians and the like are NOT mixed w/ Arabs (however you definie it. In Arabic, being an Arab simply means you speak the language) but that Arabs are descended from Ethiopians. If Ethiopians are one of the most ancient civilizations, this makes sense.

Therefore, Ethiopians and the like don't look like Arabs...Arabs look like THEM!  Look up Prince Bandar and you'll see what I mean. He's not an atypical Arab in terms of looks either.



FluffyRed said:


> I don't know about Fulani people, but regarding Somalis and Ethiopians, *I'll believe my eyes before I believe scientific findings. Scientist have "new findings" every day.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## balancegoals2009 (Oct 11, 2009)

Hello Ladies 

This is  a sad post we are allowing this man Chris Rock to degrade women of color , please don't play into him. The sad part about this he going to make money from us by us going to his movie , they are asking him to be on talk show,  magazine etcc, talking about him on hair board , you tube , black America etc etc.  everyone talking about this movie  AA hair. This is a hot mess , and some are comparing our hair texture , skin color  looks etc, please don't play into this mess, we have come a long way from bad hair to good hair. I from the old school and I know how it felt  to be judge by your hair when I was young , I not going to allow any one to degrade me are entertain this man by going to his movies are even participate in any discussion about this movie , he only wants to make money and his way to make money is to degrade black women, as usual this  black male fell us again when are we going to learn to come together a race.  Have a blessed day


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## jamaraa (Oct 11, 2009)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> So what about the Aboringines in Australia or Negritos in Asia? They have dark skin like Africans but they are more closely related to Asian populations. Sometimes what you see does not tell the whole story.


 
Yup. What of the Melenisians, Micronesians, and Polynesians? The Melenisians tend to look like the stereotype of Africans (LOL...cuz we know they all look alike  ), Micronesians can look anywhere from basic Black American/Caribbean to like the steretotype of Hawaiians, Polynesians are the stereotype of what most think of as "Pacific Islanders"? hey are the Tahitians, Hawaiians, Easter Islanders....now I ask, what RACE are all these peoples?   These folks, the Aboriginals, and the Koi San stumped our dear White folks, so we should take a crack at categorizing them.

Tho they may look different across the Pacific, they share many of the founding cultural makers and we know contact w/ Europe was very recent (18th century).


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## FluffyRed (Oct 11, 2009)

jamaraa said:


> Therefore, Ethiopians and the like don't look like Arabs...Arabs look like THEM!  Look up Prince Bandar and you'll see what I mean. He's not an atypical Arab in terms of looks either.


 
Doesn't matter who looks like whom.  Dem people, over dere, look alike.  The homo sapiens on the coast of Africa clearly mixed with the humanoids just off the coast.

Call them martians.  Matters not to me.

ETA - Morrocco is in Africa


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## LadyRaider (Oct 11, 2009)

Here is a nice website on the concept of race. Race is not genetic. There are no genetic markers for any race. Two Koreans are as likely to be as genetically different as a Korean and an Iraqi. There are no characteristics that are tied wholly to once race. Also, genes for hair, skin color, eye color etc, are separate entities and not tied together.  The concept of race was socially constructed because economically people wanted to enslave other people. 

The concept of race is socially constructed based on physical attributes.
The concept of ethnicity is socially constructed based on culture. 

The white "race" can have many "ethnic groups" - Iraqi, Swedish, Georgian, Morrocan, etc.
The ethnic group "Cuban" can have many "races" - black Cubans, white Cubans, Mestizo Cubans.


http://www.pbs.org/race


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## jamaraa (Oct 11, 2009)

AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> This is starting to be a sad thread, but it started out great. I'm disappointed (and it's so depressing) *to see that we repeatedly fall back on this sense of inferiority or these stereotypical notions of what African can or can not be. (it's Arab, not African!...it's Eurocentric...not Fulani!) It's incredible. *
> 
> Black women, please do not pay your money to see C. Rock's mockumentary. Women deserve to be treated with understanding and love...not finger-pointing, mocking and the like.
> 
> ...


 
Well, I'm not too depressed by this thread (yet). I think it's good to look these assumptions right in the eye. They are Eurocentric and it shows how we're also guilty of trying to enforce them on other people's. Liberia, anyone?

The Chris Rock film reviews are coming in on the hair sites and so far, I've seen nobody who liked it. Even tho we have fabulous stuff on YouTube, some Black woman or women need to take a shot at this. LOL...on the LHC (the White version of us here) someone said (a WW) that they were tired of seeing women's grooming choices always being held as a sign of an inferority complex or something wrong w/ us as women.. She said, nobody implies that a man is trying to be female when he shaves, so  why must women always be protrayed as trying to be something else? I think a good film about women's grooming and the whys...across racial lines...would be great too. I'm tired of men telling us why we do things.

If the film comes on cable or ends up at the library, I *MIGHT* see it or maybe not.


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## Kurlee (Oct 11, 2009)

LadyRaider said:


> Here is a nice website on the concept of race. Race is not genetic. There are no genetic markers for any race. Two Koreans are as likely to be as genetically different as a Korean and an Iraqi. There are no characteristics that are tied wholly to once race. Also, genes for hair, skin color, eye color etc, are separate entities and not tied together.  *The concept of race was socially constructed because economically people wanted to enslave other people.
> 
> The concept of race is socially constructed based on physical attributes.
> The concept of ethnicity is socially constructed based on culture* .
> ...


 Just had to make that larger


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## Celestial (Oct 11, 2009)

Black women suppose to be so strong yet 'we' can't handle the slightest criticism and 'we' fear being exposed.


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## jamaraa (Oct 11, 2009)

Celestial said:


> Black women suppose to be so strong yet 'we' can't handle the slightest criticism and 'we' fear being exposed.


 
Hey you're still around. Nice to see you again. 

Nah, only those Black women who care too much about what others think. Not all of us do. He didn't "expose" anything because this isn't hidden....he just made a movie about it.


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## Celestial (Oct 11, 2009)

jamaraa said:


> *Hey you're still around*. Nice to see you again.
> 
> Nah, only those Black women who care too much about what others think. Not all of us do. He didn't "expose" anything because this isn't hidden....he just made a movie about it.


 
Well hey, I'm going to get my $6.50 worth (I forgot how much I paid for subscription). I was just wondering why people are so angry especially if they didn't see the movie. If 'we' as black women want to believe we are so strong and like to convince others of that then I think 'we' should stop acting so weak and vulnerable.


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## jamaraa (Oct 11, 2009)

Check back further in the thread. I did a nice debunk of the "strong Black woman" nonsense. We ARE vulnerable...we're women and human beings. Pretending to NOT be vulnerable is denying some of your humanity, IMHO.

I think some of the anger on the boards has nothing to do w/ that tho. Chris, it turns out, didn't even talk to his own wife about her hair practices, so what's the dealio? He lives w/ a BW, but he ONLY talks about women he doesn't live w/?  He sent his kid to a all White school and seems surprised that she feels "different"? Well Chris, what did you expect?


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## Celestial (Oct 11, 2009)

jamaraa said:


> *Check back further in the thread*. I did a nice debunk of the "strong Black woman" nonsense. We ARE vulnerable...we're women and human beings. Pretending to NOT be vulnerable is denying some of your humanity, IMHO.
> 
> I think some of the anger on the boards has nothing to do w/ that tho. *Chris, it turns out, didn't even talk to his own wife about her hair practices, so what's the dealio*? He lives w/ a BW, but he ONLY talks about women he doesn't live w/? He sent his kid to a all White school and seems surprised that she feels "different"? Well Chris, what did you expect?


 
Is it in this thread? I saw a re-run of the Wendy Williams show and Chris told Wendy that he didn't know if his wife was wearing a weave or wig, but he did say he just accept her as she is or as she come. So I guess he doesn't put emphasis on it. He then told Wendy that Sade was his ideal woman when he was younger and went on about the long sleek ponytail and the red lips. Yeah, Chris Rock is causing some confusion, but I still think his movie is pure comedy and it may get black women who fret over false hair to start questioning themselves.


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## jamaraa (Oct 11, 2009)

If his was film doing this based on/inspired by his daughter's hair issues, why shouldn't his wife be 1st and foremost in his mind? After all, she's the BW who's raising her and giving her these attitudes. (Nope, I don't buy that it was solely school that gave her these hangups). Not to mention his role in why his daughter feels this way. The problem w/ the concept of this film is that he plays it like it's a woman's issue solely. It isn't. 

Ironically, back in the day..that long braid of Sade's hair was a weave.

I'm not sure if this was mentioned in this thread, but I did read about how he didn't deal w/ his wife in terms of this film. Why are strangers an issue, but his wife not? After all, she's raising their kids...along w/ him.


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## Celestial (Oct 11, 2009)

jamaraa said:


> > If his was film doing this based on/inspired by his daughter's hair issues,
> 
> 
> I don't think the film is based on or inspired by his daughter. The fact that his daughter asked why she doesn't have good hair made Chris Rock question women of why they so obsessed with their hair. He is already familiar with 'good' hair and 'bad' hair. He didn't need his daughter curiosity to enlighten him.
> ...


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## jamaraa (Oct 11, 2009)

*Celestial* his daughter's question DID inspire him to search into this and ultimately make ths film...he said so himself. I know this film isn't about his wife, but she's the woman closest to him and his daughter. Not including her is very odd.

Nobody's saying anything about him making a film about WW, hon. Where did I ever mention WW? *I'm saying that it's a Black male issue too because of the pressure they put on women to do these things. Black men are a huge reason why BW do this....they can't be factored out. Not to mention how many men are paying for it....like Mr. Rock. You can't separate these facts.*

Asking entertainers, of all people, DOESN'T WORK to give us any insight about Black women in general. Entertainers of all races have special issues on why they weave up or whatever. The hair of entertainers tells us little about average people, no matter the race.


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## Celestial (Oct 11, 2009)

jamaraa said:


> > Nobody's saying anything about him making a film about WW, hon. Where did I ever mention WW?
> 
> 
> Well I'm glad you didn't. Some black women think he should include *ALL* women who wear weaves.
> ...


----------



## msa (Oct 11, 2009)

Celestial said:


> We are not going to agree on this. Black men are not putting pressure on black women to do these things. If black women were into impressing black men then they would get rid of the hair weave because black men don't like it. *If they wanted to impress black men they would change their attitude, lose weight, and keep their hair clean and groom and wear it in a way that compliment their beauty, not distract from it.*




Are you a black woman? In all these conversations when you refer to black women it's always "they" or "them" or "you" and never "me" or "us". 

Whether you are black or not, clinging to stereotypes isn't going to get you anywhere.


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## jamaraa (Oct 11, 2009)

*Celestial* entertainers have to have their hair on point all the time. They get styled for everything. IOW, they face far more manipulation than your average person and many times get weaves, wear, wigs, or have very short hair to avoid the damage to their real hair. This is true of Black and Whites....LOL, do you follow fashion? If you did, you SEE what they do to those girl's heads. It's amazing they have ANY hair left.

Nope...celebs are not good for any argument. Their circumstances are diferent. LOL..how many women do you know who have a hairdresser at their disposal 24/7 like Oprah? Get real.

BTW, I said nothing about BM PRAYING for weaves, but *PAYING* for them. Big diff....read carefully, it's fundamental. Well some of them probably ARE praying that the woman in their life gets a weave, relaxer, etc. LOL

One more thing....exactly how do you know what will "impress" BM? Last I checked, they are individuals. (Save that weight and attitude stuff for the appropriate forum) However many of them are individuals who DEMAND for BW to do certain things to their hair and pay for it.


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## jamaraa (Oct 11, 2009)

msa said:


> Are you a black *woman*? In all these conversations when you refer to black women it's always "they" or "them" or "you" and never "me" or "us".
> 
> Whether you are black or not, clinging to stereotypes isn't going to get you anywhere.


 
Methinks she's/he's a kid....yup a Black one. Blacks are often the most insistant on pushing stereotpes on other Blacks, sadly. Her/he convos always seem familiar w/ the topics at hand, but from a very limited point of view.  She/he clearly knows few BW who aren't one way in her real life.


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## AnKelly (Oct 11, 2009)

I found some of the things Chris Rock said to be disrespectful. On Oprah, he made a comment about her looking like a slave in her little girl picture with the natural pigtails, then saying "now you're free" in the picture with her hair blown out straight. I'm a hairstylist and I feel black women should wear their hair any way they want to as long as the underlying reason is not directly associated with self-hatred, an obsession to look like someone of another race, peer pressure, SO pressures, family pressure, or societal pressure. White Women never make excuses for the various experiments they do to their hair, they just get them, pay me for the service, and move on. 

Maybe his obsession with weaves comes from his own insecurities about his wife who does in turn sport a very bad unnatural weave. Maybe he even insists that she wears it. You know, many black men, such as he who get into the entertainment industry account for pressures on black women. Now don't get me wrong, I have nothing against light skinned BW or women of any other race, (because everyone including my husband, son , and mother are totally mixed up with a hodge podge of things), but I can't help but notice the light bright syndrome of women wrapped around these men arms with straight hair as soon as they reach celebrity status. Most of these men are color struck and hair obsessed thinking that lighter skin and straighter hair is better especially when it comes to having children so they go mate with someone to offset their blackness. 

Chris claims all men care about is the waist to a$$ ratio. I beg to differ greatly because I've seen and heard differently from black, white, arab, and latino men.


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## infojunkie (Oct 11, 2009)

I've been watching this thread since it first jumped off and had no desire to participate since I haven't seen the movie, am not sure if I will, am not home to catch Oprah, nor do I have a DVR to tape any of the shows. I finally read it in its entirety today because I wondered what on Earth could inspire a 308 post article with C. Rock at the heart.

I'm glad I stumbled in. I've been enlightened by some of the women participating in this discussion and was pleasantly surprised by the train derailment (LOL). I've made notes of a few things to follow up on and will be keeping my left eye on this thread for future developments.

Loving the discussion, carry on.

(I see ya, Jamarra!)


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## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 11, 2009)

jamaraa said:


> Methinks she's/he's a kid....yup a Black one. Blacks are often the most insistant on pushing stereotpes on other Blacks, sadly. Her/he convos always seem familiar w/ the topics at hand, but from a very limited point of view.  She/he clearly knows few BW who aren't one way in her real life.




Okay, I was going to advise against even pursuing any real discourse with this person, but you're already keen to what's going on so I'll just fall back.


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## casey3035 (Oct 11, 2009)

I feel that Chris put us on blast without bringing attention to the fact that every race wears weave/extentions or whatever they choose to call it.Oprah showed things about black and whites doing 'un-natural' things to their hair.Chris only focused on us-as everyone does. Im sorry but I have always known white women-especially in the 80's that chemically changed their hair with a 'permanent'which makes their hair curly. We get a Jerri curl and it's a problem. Whites get that Brazillian hair straightener thats fine-we get a relaxer and we are 'trying to be white'. We get extra hair put in and the joke is on us because we where weave??? But when whites get extra hair they're just 'saving they're hair'...if we dare use bleaching cream to get rid of skin discoloration-we wanna be white but whites Tan all day long and spray in on in the winter-but...not a problem.No one says they are trying to look black.
   I am just tired of others trying to make a mochary of us and then other AA join in. I just think we should not be judged about our hair care practices but maybe re-directed on our hair care practices. I would love to have Oprahs stylist show us exactly what he does to her natural hair everyday -it does look good but educate us-don't try and make fools of us...intentionally or not, I felt we were made out to look like poor black women without a pot to piss in but willing to pay thousands of dollars for weave. The one stylist said a weave job from her cost $1000, but let's face it- the average woman does not pay anything close to that when she sits in a chair for a weave...It seems like nothing we do is ok until a white person does it then...maybe.....Sorry so long ladies. And I am not being racist as my husband is 100% Caucasian but a spade is a spade....


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## jamaraa (Oct 11, 2009)

casey3035 said:


> I feel that Chris put us on blast without bringing attention to the fact that every race wears weave/extentions or whatever they choose to call it.Oprah showed things about black and whites doing 'un-natural' things to their hair.Chris only focused on us-as everyone does. Im sorry but I have always known white women-especially in the 80's that chemically changed their hair with a 'permanent'which makes their hair curly. We get a Jerri curl and it's a problem. Whites get that Brazillian hair straightener thats fine-we get a relaxer and we are 'trying to be white'. We get extra hair put in and the joke is on us because we where weave??? But when whites get extra hair they're just 'saving they're hair'...if we dare use bleaching cream to get rid of skin discoloration-we wanna be white but whites Tan all day long and spray in on in the winter-but...not a problem.No one says they are trying to look black.
> I am just tired of others trying to make a mochary of us and then other AA join in. I just think we should not be judged about our hair care practices but maybe re-directed on our hair care practices. I would love to have Oprahs stylist show us exactly what he does to her natural hair everyday -it does look good but educate us-don't try and make fools of us...intentionally or not, I felt we were made out to look like poor black women without a pot to piss in but willing to pay thousands of dollars for weave. *The one stylist said a weave job from her cost $1000, but let's face it- the average woman does not pay anything close to that when she sits in a chair for a weave.*..It seems like nothing we do is ok until a white person does it then...maybe.....Sorry so long ladies. And I am not being racist as my husband is 100% Caucasian but a spade is a spade....


 
My grandmother was trippin' over that $1,000 thing. I know Ellen Levar charged like that (she does Naomi Campbell's weave). It was like they found the most melodramatic things to focus on. Of course, Oprah's middle name is "Melodramatic and Banal".

You're right about the double standards. Too many people feel they have a right to question/comment on BW about their choices, but not WW. It's totally hypocritical.


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## Bachelorette (Oct 11, 2009)

FluffyRed said:


> Agbani Darego!! Miss something from Africa



The hell? That's Agbeni?? That twit's Nigerian. Rofl

She looks NOTHING like that now.


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## Bachelorette (Oct 11, 2009)

AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> Sorry, I just wanted to ask one more question...especially since some people thanked you on this: you mentioned, "the ones that have HISTORY with Arabs will most likely have the features".  Do the Arabs have their features?  Or do they (any group) have Arab features?  If so, why??  Why do the Arabs not have THEIR (Africans) features?
> 
> Again, I don't understand this...



Foremost, I find it odd that you look at the amount of thanks a post gets, I wasnt even aware. 

But to answer the question, most Arabs have a distinct look, they have their features, mosy of the people from those parts of Africa where the Arabs ruled over have that particular look due to mingling or i should say raping and pillaging. 

To be honest I dont call African Arabs, African cos majority of them deny being African so whatever.

Do you question it when people say some black people have "white features"?


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## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 11, 2009)

Bachelorette said:


> Foremost, I find it odd that you look at the amount of thanks a post gets, I wasnt even aware.





Hey Bachelorette.  You can see the amount of "thanks" that a post gets by simply looking at the end/bottom of the particular post.  

As for the other questions you asked, I mentioned earlier that this is not the place for me to engage in this sort of discourse.  The women here who were ready, knowledgeable, open, and receptive were encouraging and vocal and kind enough to big up what we had to say or even mention that our discourse was interesting or eye-opening (or they simply took it in and derived what they needed).  However, there are many of us who are not ready to stop handing over what is ours.  For those, I realize I'm beating a dead horse (for lack of better words), and I simply focus on those women who are open.  

In addition, since this is my area of study, I prefer to have these conversations in an academic setting.


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## Celestial (Oct 12, 2009)

jamaraa said:


> *Celestial* entertainers have to have their hair on point all the time. They get styled for everything. IOW, they face far more manipulation than your average person and many times get weaves, wear, wigs, or have very short hair to avoid the damage to their real hair. This is true of Black and Whites....LOL, do you follow fashion? If you did, you SEE what they do to those girl's heads. It's amazing they have ANY hair left.
> 
> Nope...celebs are not good for any argument. Their circumstances are diferent. LOL..how many women do you know who have a hairdresser at their disposal 24/7 like Oprah? Get real.
> 
> ...


 
If you noticed I made several typos and I really did meant black men are *PRAYING* for black women to ditch the weaves. If you would have read carefully you would have noticed several errors and typos, but you did get it.


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## Ms Kain (Oct 12, 2009)

authenticitymanifesting said:


> We don't suffer from a lack of quality products and salons. Some people are just lazy about hair care.


 
Actually many of us aren't lazy and really do suffer from a lack of quality hair salons and products. I'm originally from NY and have also lived in Atlanta for 9 years. In these cities there are BSSs on every corner, magazines on hair care and in NY in particular, there were so many Dominican hair salons or quality salons in general that I could stand just about anywhere and throw a rock and it was sure to land on a quality salon! 

Fast forward to when I moved out to Phoenix, AZ and let me tell you it is a NIGHTMARE out here! We're only 5% of the whole population and there are very few stores out here that cater to our products. Many of us have to drive miles just to get the products that work on our hair! Then when we get there, there's usually the old standby's (They Dark 'n Lovely us _to death_ out here) and when you ask them where you can get certain products, they'll usually give you a blank stare and tell you to go to Sally's (Which at the time didn't have a line of products for 4a-c type hair). 

I know there are some hair stylists out here who would be offended by me saying this but in Phoenix, seriously, I haven't met any hair stylist from Phoenix that knows how to style hair much less treat it in a healthy way. I had one lady who really thought she was going to relax my hair and then put a straightening comb through it to "polish it up"......no ma'am....not on my hair! Another one tried to put so much product in my hair that it almost felt like primer or wall paint! Another apparently didn't know what an 1/8 of an inch was when I asked her for a trim....I could go on but you get the point! 

Since that time I have found a Dominican hairstylist who I absolutely love and with the ability to order online, stores finally starting to carry lines for our hair and this forum, I am finally starting to see a healthy change! 

So all of this to say that most of us aren't lazy but we just don't have the knowledge or the right products to help facilitate hair growth and it shows....

and that's why some uninformed people like Chris Rock are under the impression that Black women can't grow hair. They see them and assume that's the situation with all of us.  Of course if they happen to see an AA sista with healthy long hair then the first assumption is that she has a weave or as Chris says,"She must be OPRAH rich." 

Whateva Chris. What-eva!


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## jamaraa (Oct 12, 2009)

Celestial said:


> If you noticed I made several typos and I really did meant black men are *PRAYING* for black women to ditch the weaves. If you would have read carefully you would have noticed several errors and typos, but you did get it.


 
Black men pay for weaves, wigs, relaxers, beauty products, and trips to the natural salon for the women in their lives sometimes. That's true and it's life. Who else questions this but you?


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## Ms Kain (Oct 13, 2009)

Crackers Phinn said:


> I am absolutely befuddled.
> 
> Why is it that when 'we' get the spotlight on 'us' the natural instinct is to fall back to what everybody else is doing?
> 
> ...


 
You know, back when I was a kid my Grandmother would often tell me that “not all attention is good attention”. Meaning that sometimes it’s better not to have attention if that attention is going to place you in a negative light. So with that in mind I think that what many of us are trying to say is that even though the light is being shined on us it doesn’t mean anything if what is being said about us is negative, inaccurate or incomplete. 

Something else to consider is this. Do you remember the standup that Chris did some time back when he was talking about how Black women tend to go to clubs and dance to lyrics that degrade us? He basically said that we’ll do this despite the fact that every lyric reduces us to sexual objects not worthy of respect. He basically said that as long as the rapper puts a hot beat behind it, BW will ignore what’s said and dance to it anyway. 

Well, to me this is no different. Only this time it’s Chris instead of rappers and instead of a tyte beat, he feels that as long as he sprinkles his “documentary” with comedy, we’ll be distracted and we won’t say anything or even notice that he’s making negative, inaccurate, incomplete or sweeping generalizations about us. I swear, I have nothing against the man but I have noticed that ever since it leaked out that he and his wife were at one time considering divorce, he’s come off pretty harsh to BW and it makes me wonder if he’s got some new found anger issues. Oh well. 

But the point is that just because many of us don’t appreciate what Chris said doesn’t mean that we’re opposed to supporting movies about us. It’s just that if we are going to support something about ourselves then it should be something that is well rounded, complete and accurate. However, if it’s an incomplete portrayal or a broad generalizations of black women then all we’re doing is dancing to something that degrades us…..or in Chris’ case we’re accepting negativity just because it’s neatly gift wrapped in comedy. I’ll speak for myself when I say that comedy does not distract me from the fact that a man who looks like us did more harm than good and we are worth way more than that. *****


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## Ms Kain (Oct 13, 2009)

bedazzled said:


> Excuse me if I upset anyone but for some reason alot of the times on LHCF I think we ladies be actin 'brand new'. I think that the smarter you get, the more knowledge you have acquired, the wiser you are, the less in touch with the 'real world' you become. Hence why very smart people aren't the biggest social bugs. So I think that a lot of our responses regarding 'why is it automatically assumed that black women are wearing weave?' is due mostly to the fact that we're on LHCF so we all know & have seen the 'real' deal with black hair (it grows, its beautiful & etc..). I don't think this supports the whole 'its regional thing' concept because prior to LHCF I'm sure a good percentage of us assumed that some black hair grew, some black hair didn't based on what we have been told. So regardless if you've seen WL black girls or not, you probably just assumed that God blessed them with a special white girl gene & left you out (atleast thats what I assumed).


 


> ....... I mean think about whats 'long hair' in our community vs. 'long hair' in other communities. Most black women drool over SL hair. Sure most people in general across nations don't have WL, but I mean taking it back to the days where I knew nothing about hair care..the deal was white women (& other races) CHOSE the length they wanted, and black women were cursed with the length they had. Isn't that the mindset? White women get to choose if they want to be chewed up EL, NL, SL, MBL, WL & etc.. I mean sure now that I know better I know that black women CHOOSE where they want to be & we're not cursed..& some white women have trouble passing SL but regardless of what I know, the numbers show that there are more black women with chewed up short hair than chewed up long hair or healthy long hair...


 
Wow, you know what? I never stopped to think about that! That's a good point! We know because we are here.....they don't know because they aren't here......

But my only thing is that people who make films and want to call them "documentaries" should make it _their business_ to learn every aspect of the topic they are trying to cover. All he had to do was alittle Googling to find places like this. After all, we did! 

But still, that point you made was hard hitting. Sometimes people don't know what they don't know!  Nicely done!


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## kinkycotton (Oct 13, 2009)

Crackers Phinn said:


> I am absolutely befuddled.
> 
> Why is it that when 'we' get the spotlight on 'us' the natural instinct is to fall back to what everybody else is doing?
> 
> ...


 
The bolded hit the nail right on the head... for me at least.   There's some natural forums with pissed off ladies because Chris Rock message wasn't  "relaxers isn't healthy". 
I am natural (and coming up my year anniversary soon ) and still spending money on hair products in search of the "holy grail" of conditioners. His main objective was to play a neutral role by looking at the bigger picture..money, dollars that AA women INVEST in their hair. I WANT to see this movie for this reason alone.

Now,what I'm hearing is he didn't put a spotlight  AA women who has long natural hair. If you compare the two women with weaves is the majority and I'm taking about the ones who doesn't wear as a protective style. 

I can't wait to see this movie, I'm sure it will be an eye opener on this BILLION DOLLAR INDUSTRY  and great laughs too.  

Thank You.


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## almond eyes (Oct 13, 2009)

Most of these natural-afro textured hair products were created by black people (black women) like Qhemet Biologics, Carol's Daughter, Nubian Heritage etc and this is a recent trend. The point is when we keep money in the black community then we can concentrate on building our communities. Other races do that, we as black people do not which is why poverty is rampant. However, black women still predominately spend money on relaxers and weaves that are mostly white and Asian owned businesses. 

Best,
Almond Eyes


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## kinkycotton (Oct 13, 2009)

bedazzled said:


> Excuse me if I upset anyone but for some reason alot of the times on LHCF I think we ladies be actin 'brand new'. I think that the smarter you get, the more knowledge you have acquired, the wiser you are, the less in touch with the 'real world' you become. Hence why very smart people aren't the biggest social bugs. So I think that a lot of our responses regarding 'why is it automatically assumed that black women are wearing weave?' is due mostly to the fact that we're on LHCF so we all know & have seen the 'real' deal with black hair (it grows, its beautiful & etc..). _I don't think this supports the whole 'its regional thing' concept because prior to LHCF I'm sure a good percentage of us assumed that some black hair grew, some black hair didn't based on what we have been told. So regardless if you've seen WL black girls or not, you probably just assumed that God blessed them with a special white girl gene & left you out (atleast thats what I assumed)._
> truth.
> 
> #myopinion


 
nicely put!


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## AtlantaJJ (Oct 13, 2009)

White women have been wearing weaves for years and years; ask Paris Hilton, Pam Anderson, and a few years ago Posh Spice Beckham just to name a couple off the top of my head.  I haven't seen any of these shows but I'm sure they forgot to mention this fact.


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## spelmanlocks (Oct 13, 2009)

At the end of the movie, Chris Rock does briefly mention that white women wear weaves and shows pictures of Paris Hilton and some other white ladies who are weave wearers.  Personally, I think he did a great job with his movie.  I took my hubby to see it and he really learned a lot.  He left the theater saying our daughter will never get a relaxer until she's grown and out the house.


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## Crackers Phinn (Oct 13, 2009)

jaineblaize said:


> You know, back when I was a kid my Grandmother would often tell me that “not all attention is good attention”. Meaning that sometimes it’s better not to have attention if that attention is going to place you in a negative light. So with that in mind I think that what many of us are trying to say is that even though the light is being shined on us it doesn’t mean anything if what is being said about us is negative, inaccurate or incomplete.
> 
> Something else to consider is this. Do you remember the standup that Chris did some time back when he was talking about how Black women tend to go to clubs and dance to lyrics that degrade us? He basically said that we’ll do this despite the fact that every lyric reduces us to sexual objects not worthy of respect. He basically said that as long as the rapper puts a hot beat behind it, BW will ignore what’s said and dance to it anyway.
> 
> ...



Have you seen the movie? 

I don't know how any of this can be taken from what I sat in the theater and watched.


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## beans4reezy (Oct 13, 2009)

jaineblaize said:


> You know, back when I was a kid my Grandmother would often tell me that “not all attention is good attention”. Meaning that sometimes it’s better not to have attention if that attention is going to place you in a negative light. So with that in mind I think that what many of us are trying to say is that even though the light is being shined on us it doesn’t mean anything if what is being said about us is negative, inaccurate or incomplete.
> 
> Something else to consider is this. Do you remember the standup that Chris did some time back when he was talking about how Black women tend to go to clubs and dance to lyrics that degrade us? He basically said that we’ll do this despite the fact that every lyric reduces us to sexual objects not worthy of respect. He basically said that as long as the rapper puts a hot beat behind it, BW will ignore what’s said and dance to it anyway.
> 
> ...



Excellently put!


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## isobell (Oct 13, 2009)

AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> Our features are African.  If there are features in Africans that are also present in Arabs, then they have OUR features.  They don't own or have some monopoly on African features.
> 
> These are ours and if Arabs happen to also share them for some reason, then they should consider themselves fortunate to be blessed with our beauty.




  You know I've always said this too! Although I am nigerian and my so is nigerian when I first met him he swore up and down that I had an asian ancestor, to the point of asking my mother about the family tree etc. my brother gets asked if he is half japanese all the time as well.  Not to be funny or offensive to anyone who is mixed with other races but I always say grade A Nigerian! This is because I felt those comments were an effort to take away from me or from other africans by implying something considered beautiful in me MUST have been contributed by another race (not that race really means much). The fact is we (my family) can trace our family tree back several hundred years back and there is nary an asian person to be found...if early human originated in africa does it not stand to reason that an african person might potentially express any phenotype you might find on another continent?  slanted eyes do not belong only to asians, and a nose with a more prominent bridge is not necessarily euro.

complete aside: hmm not to say that if you are of mixed race you should deny that either, it is part of who you are, to deny one part of you in an effort to profess your "blackness"  to other's is imo completely disrespectful to those whose feelings should be more important to you, your family. to feel threatened when someone says my dad is middle eastern and my mother black speaks more of one's own feelings of perceived inferiority than anything else. after all the simple statement of racial makeup _should_ not connote anything but the fact of the statement.


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## Junebug D (Oct 13, 2009)

Crackers Phinn said:


> Have you seen the movie?
> 
> I don't know how any of this can be taken from what I sat in the theater and watched.


 
Seems like the people who haven't even seen it are the ones doing the most complaining about what's in it.


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## jamaraa (Oct 13, 2009)

AsianAfricanPrincess said:


> Hey Bachelorette. You can see the amount of "thanks" that a post gets by simply looking at the end/bottom of the particular post.
> 
> As for the other questions you asked, I mentioned earlier that this is not the place for me to engage in this sort of discourse. The women here who were ready, knowledgeable, open, and receptive were encouraging and vocal and kind enough to big up what we had to say or even mention that our discourse was interesting or eye-opening (or they simply took it in and derived what they needed). *However, there are many of us who are not ready to stop handing over what is ours.* For those, I realize I'm beating a dead horse (for lack of better words), and I simply focus on those women who are open.
> 
> In addition, since this is my area of study, I prefer to have these conversations in an academic setting.


 
Yes, some folks will always take the EASY route. Being discriminating wrt how you allocate your resources, what sort of nonsense you'll tolerate, etc are things that too many people (esp women) seem ready to just hand over. Why are they? It's easy to hand other people your brain to do your thinking for you.

When people stand up for foolishness and aren't bright enough to understand when they're being insulted, they can't complain much when they end up w/ nothing and the butt of jokes.


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## Mizz Diamonds (Oct 13, 2009)

isobell said:


> You know I've always said this too! Although I am nigerian and my so is nigerian when I first met him he *swore up and down that I had an asian ancestor, to the point of asking my mother about the family tree etc. my brother gets asked if he is half japanese all the time as well.* Not to be funny or offensive to anyone who is mixed with other races but I always say grade A Nigerian! This is because I felt those comments were an effort to take away from me or from other africans by implying something considered beautiful in me MUST have been contributed by another race (not that race really means much). The fact is we (my family) can trace our family tree back several hundred years back and there is nary an asian person to be found...if early human originated in africa does it not stand to reason that an african person might potentially express any phenotype you might find on another continent? slanted eyes do not belong only to asians, and a nose with a more prominent bridge is not necessarily euro.
> 
> complete aside: hmm not to say that if you are of mixed race you should deny that either, it is part of who you are, to deny one part of you in an effort to profess your "blackness" to other's is imo completely disrespectful to those whose feelings should be more important to you, your family. to feel threatened when someone says my dad is middle eastern and my mother black speaks more of one's own feelings of perceived inferiority than anything else. after all the simple statement of racial makeup _should_ not connote anything but the fact of the statement.


 
OMG same here, a lot of people thought I was half/quarter east or south east asian and maybe even indo trinidadian and I am fully Nigieran Yoruba girl. My friend who happens to be Black and Japanese thought that too.It was even put down on my high school details about my ethnicity Black/Asian, you can check my fotki I don't think I looked mixed LOL.

Also what you were saying about the slanted eyes thing there is a tribe somewhere around south west africa that has slanted eyes, but i keep forgetting the name.


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## andromeda (Oct 13, 2009)

Mizz Diamonds said:


> OMG same here, a lot of people thought I was half/quarter east or south east asian and maybe even indo trinidadian and I am fully Nigieran Yoruba girl. My friend who happens to be Black and Japanese thought that too.It was even put down on my high school details about my ethnicity Black/Asian, you can check my fotki I don't think I looked mixed LOL.
> 
> Also what you were saying about the slanted eyes thing there is a tribe somewhere around south west africa that has slanted eyes, but i keep forgetting the name.


The San? (I know which group you're referring to but I might be confusing them in my mind)


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## Zenobia61 (Oct 13, 2009)

that_1_grrrl said:


> EXACTLY what I am thinking, AAP. What I hate about this movie is how exploitative it is. If this is "our" issue, then why does it need to be made into a public discussion. Black folks can discuss this issue on our own. Plus, White folks have proved again and again that they are not capable of learning anything about some of us without applying it to all of us.
> 
> *This is all about making money, not opening a dialogue about Black hair issues*. What good does it do us to have this movie? From what I've heard, he isn't saying anything the average Black woman hasn't heard before. Idk.


 
EXACTLY.........I love the woman on this board.  We always get it right sooner or later!!


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## inspiration150 (Oct 14, 2009)

My problem with all this is, I am glad that Chris Rock is trying to inform black people to think more critically about their hair. But to me it does not help anything if no tries to find a solution. The point is they believe we have a problem with our hair. It can't grow or we go through all these lengths to make it look differently. OK> now what's the solution. To me too many say they done all this research. Yet, they never find people like the ones on the boards who had success. Why is it that they never provide positive feedback ? I don't care how great it is that he noticed there is a problem. Big deal so have others. Now how is he going to be part of the solution. Yeah, I know someone going to say if black people cared they go and look for themselves. But too many black people really believe truly that their hair is bad and can't grow. If you cared about the community. Enlighten yourself and research. Help find a solution. I mean I literally stumbled on this site. Maybe these people need to utilize google. I am tired of it. Don't preach to me, unless you know the way. That's how I feel. I won't be seeing this movie. I could always watch it online if I am curious.


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## Ms Kain (Oct 14, 2009)

shan_2001 said:


> Seems like the people who haven't even seen it are the ones doing the most complaining about what's in it.


Basically you're saying "How can you tell what's going to be in the "documentary" unless you see it?" right? I'll tell you how......

The only reason why Chris would be on Oprah's show is to _promote _his "Good Hair 'Documentary' ". This means that in the small amount of time Oprah allots him, his goal would most likely be to get the main idea of his movie across to her viewers. Therefore it stands to reason that since this is *his *documentary then whatever he says or he insinuates during the interview will most likely be in his movie. It also stands to reason that whatever he _doesn't _believe would either be absent from the movie or mocked in the movie because again, it's HIS movie.....

Ok so let's look at Chris' philosophy about AA women and their hair.When given a chance, Chris basically sat up on Oprah's show and either straight out said OR insinuated that;

1) Black women can't grow hair

2) If they can grow hair then it's because they are "Oprah" rich. 

3) All Black women (and he did generalize like a mu') do not like anyone touching their hair but Asian and White women are so willing to do this that when he dated him, he put his hands through their hair like he was "thiiiirsty" (comparing again - his words, not mine). 

of course, he then contradicted himself with saying that 

4) Black men don't care about women's hair .....WHAT?!?!?!
_(Now THIS was laughable but seeing as though he wouldn't have many women chasing him without his money, he probably said that because back in the days he probably took what he could get)_ __

Then, during the segment about WW and their fusion (read:weaves) he sat there with a rapt look on his face as if he wasn't quite sure this actually happened with WW. Did you see the look on his face?  He was absolutely astonished......ignorantly so, I might add....

So there you have it. He _cooned _all of this on Oprah's show - we all saw it - so if he did that then isn't it highly likely that his "docu-coonery" also expresses that same sentiment? 

Now if you're saying that it's STILL possible that what he said was misinterpreted and his docu-coonery won't be as harsh, then he deriously misrepresented himself and his movie and let's face it....it's a feat just to _get on _Oprah's show so why blow it by telling us something completely opposite of what's really in his movie? See, it just doesn't make sense. 

So that's how I came to the conclusion. It's highly likely that what he said on Oprah's show is what he said in his documentary. Seriously, we  really don't have to see the movie to come to that conclusion.*****


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## jamaraa (Oct 14, 2009)

The guy's not exactly a deep well. There's only so much he COULD say given his mentality.


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## coconow2007 (Oct 14, 2009)

Mizz Diamonds said:


> OMG same here, a lot of people thought I was half/quarter east or south east asian and maybe even indo trinidadian and I am fully Nigieran Yoruba girl. My friend who happens to be Black and Japanese thought that too.It was even put down on my high school details about my ethnicity Black/Asian, you can check my fotki I don't think I looked mixed LOL.
> 
> Also what you were saying about the slanted eyes thing there is a tribe somewhere around south west africa that has slanted eyes, but i keep forgetting the name.


 
This so amazing I am a AA - some of my ancestors were slaves so I am positive some mixing went on.  However, since then eveyone married/had kids by other AAs.  I have been in asian restaurants and have had the owners and workers look at me very strangely and approach me and even ask if I was mixed.  I was in CA for a conference and this asian man approached me speaking in his language and looking at me as if I understood what he said - very bizzare.  Family members nicknamed me 'black china doll' which I never viewed as a compliment and now that I am growing my hair out these same family members claim I can grow my hair because I have that good hair even though they know my parents origins better than I do.


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## coconow2007 (Oct 14, 2009)

jaineblaize said:


> Basically you're saying "How can you tell what's going to be in the "documentary" unless you see it?" right? I'll tell you how......
> 
> The only reason why Chris would be on Oprah's show is to _promote _his "Good Hair 'Documentary' ". This means that in the small amount of time Oprah allots him, his goal would most likely be to get the main idea of his movie across to her viewers. Therefore it stands to reason that since this is *his *documentary then whatever he says or he insinuates during the interview will most likely be in his movie. It also stands to reason that whatever he _doesn't _believe would either be absent from the movie or mocked in the movie because again, it's HIS movie.....
> 
> ...


 
Good points jaineblaize - I try and support all black film and asked my mom if she wanted to see it - my mother is well in her 60s and is pretty conservative, no weaves, or naturals and she simply stated (without knowing much about the movie) why would I want to see him make fun of black women - we have a hard time of it already we don't need him making it worse.  So I agree with limited info advertised by Chris Rock people can pretty much get where he's coming from...


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## krikit96 (Oct 14, 2009)

Mizz Diamonds said:


> OMG same here*, a lot of people thought I was half/quarter east or south east asian and maybe even indo trinidadian and I am fully Nigieran Yoruba girl. My friend who happens to be Black and Japanese thought that too.It was even put down on my high school details about my ethnicity Black/Asian, you can check my fotki I don't think I looked mixed LOL.*
> 
> Also what you were saying about the slanted eyes thing there is a tribe somewhere around south west africa that has slanted eyes, but i keep forgetting the name.



Wow... well out of curiosity (i.e. being nosey) I went to check out your fotki and I definitely would never confuse you for being asian anything. I can tell that you are not mixed. I think some people are just ignorant of what to say/think about people of color...


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## Chin (Oct 14, 2009)

jamaraa said:


> Yes, sadly this is true. If these things don't START w/ BW, many times they are carried on by BW and enforced on other BW. Unfortunately too many BW are incredibly willing to believe the worst about themselves and their fellows no matter what subject "the worst" may be about.




True, but really sad


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## Chin (Oct 14, 2009)

jamaraa said:


> That pic of Hilton looks OK, but there are plenty of pics where her hair looks plastic. She clearly wears extensions and isn't ashamed. Why should she be? shrug.
> 
> bolded...don't buy. Yes, BW get questioned if they have super long (let's call it ALP+ for our purposes) braid extensions. They get questioned if they have super long hair at all, even and especially if it's all theirs. Unless you're using non human hair, the braid extensions are also of Asian hair.
> 
> This is not about weaves but the perception that Black women can't have long hair WITHOUT it being a weave/wig. Why else did those idiots run their hand thru Oprah's hair when clearly the texture "matches"? It's not about texture, it's about length, IMHO.



For the thing about the length, you already answered it in the last quote by me. I get what your saying but I think its up to the black women with long hair to speak up on this type of nonsense. . I think that's why there was a thread about making LHCF known to the media to show that black women can grow hair.


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## anon123 (Oct 14, 2009)

Crackers Phinn said:


> Have you seen the movie?
> 
> I don't know how any of this can be taken from what I sat in the theater and watched.



But that's the catch, isn't it?  If you think the movie is insulting you, you don't want to pay to go see it.  But then, how do you know it's insulting you?

I'm still going to see it, though. I just read Jaineblaize's post (wow, super lurker! only speaks when she has something to say, it seems) who brings up some good points, but I just have to see for myself.  Will report back after I've seen it.


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## AsianAfricanPrincess (Oct 14, 2009)

krikit96 said:


> Wow... well out of curiosity (i.e. being nosey) I went to check out your fotki and I definitely would never confuse you for being asian anything. I can tell that you are not mixed. I think some people are just ignorant of what to say/think about people of color...




I was thinking the same thing...the photos surprised me.


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## jamaraa (Oct 15, 2009)

Princess_Teearra said:


> For the thing about the length, you already answered it in the last quote by me. I get what your saying but I think its up to the black women with long hair to speak up on this type of nonsense. . I think that's why there was a thread about making LHCF known to the media to show that black women can grow hair.


 
Yes, I saw that thread and responded. I voted NO. Should they subject themselves to degarding "weave checks"? I can't believe CR having grown up around many Black women have known NONE that have their own long hair. It may be rarer in some places than others, but it's not like searching for a unicorn! 

I have long hair (tho I cover it)...I've known many BW w/ long hair
by anyone's standards, so they're out there and most (unlike me) don't cover their hair.  

I'm convinced that some people are too invested in this belief (for whatever reason) to bother about trying to prove to them otherwise. So just grow yours and do your thing.


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## LadyRaider (Oct 18, 2009)

The most interesting thing about Oprah is that she really makes me think that if SHE can grow long healthy hair... ANY of us can.

The rich thing is a non-factor. If rich paid off for her, she'd be able to stay thin. I'd said wealth is a non-factor in her hair growing.

No way there's any excuse about her being "mixed." (I actually believe we are ALL mixed here in the US so that stat is meaningless.) 

She basically an unremarkable black American specimen. Now talent wise... she's way ahead of the pack, but physically... she's just one of us. God has gifted her with an average, every-woman package. 

If SHE can grow that long pretty hair... ANYONE can. 

Take heart, girls!


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## Swanky (Oct 18, 2009)

Yes, Oprah's hair is gorgeous, when I saw her, my bottom lip dropped. There's a picture of her floating around somewhere with her hair kinky -- full, thick, long and lush,  and that's awesome too.


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## Crackers Phinn (Oct 18, 2009)

I feel like Chris Rock should put me on his damn payroll. 



jaineblaize said:


> 1) Black women can't grow hair


 Not said or implied anywhere in the movie. 



jaineblaize said:


> 2) If they can grow hair then it's because they are "Oprah" rich.


 Not said or implied anywhere in the movie.  If anything the movie focused on the economics of wearing your own hair instead of buying someone else's and empowering other communities at the expense of your own.



jaineblaize said:


> 3) All Black women (and he did generalize like a mu') do not like anyone touching their hair but Asian and White women are so willing to do this that when he dated him, he put his hands through their hair like he was "thiiiirsty" (comparing again - his words, not mine).


The movie has a segment where he interviews black men  who talk about their experience with this.



jaineblaize said:


> 4) Black men don't care about women's hair .....WHAT?!?!?!
> _(Now THIS was laughable but seeing as though he wouldn't have many women chasing him without his money, he probably said that because back in the days he probably took what he could get)_ __


 
Again, he did 'man on the street' interviews with black men in the movie.  If he interviewed other men and they say that they don't care about hair, should he have reported otherwise? 



jaineblaize said:


> So there you have it. He _cooned _all of this on Oprah's show - we all saw it - so if he did that then isn't it highly likely that his "docu-coonery" also expresses that same sentiment?


 I saw the show.  I didn't see cooning.  I saw a conversation that has and will again take place on this very board.  "We" are uncomfortable having that conversation with each other and I know that alot of the vitriol about it comes from the conversation being had in front of white people.  Problem is that the laundry is still dirty whether it's aired in front of company or not and up until this documentary nobody has been able to get the attention of black folks en mass to look at the situation objectively.  Hair boards do not reach a fraction  of the numbers of black folks who tuned into Oprah to see Chris Rock talk about this. 




jaineblaize said:


> So that's how I came to the conclusion. It's highly likely that what he said on Oprah's show is what he said in his documentary. Seriously, we  really don't have to see the movie to come to that conclusion.*****



I won't sit here and tell you or anyone else how to spend their money, but having seen the movie and reading comments about what you think is in it, I can say with 100% confidence that you're wrong.  
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

While it is true that one can make a best guesstimate base on a movie trailer, I think that this issue is way too politically charged make an objective guesstimate.

I still have to contend that the only way this movie would get approval sight unseen is if Chris Rock made a movie called "Sylver2: How every black woman on the planet currently has long hair".


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## Junebug D (Oct 18, 2009)

Crackers Phinn said:


> I still have to contend that the only way this movie would get approval sight unseen is if Chris Rock made a movie called "Sylver2: How every black woman on the planet currently has long hair".



No, folks would still be mad:  "No if every black woman had long hair, then weave wouldn't be a billion dollar industry! He should've done a movie about weave!  We'z speshul here! SPESHUL!"


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## LadyRaider (Oct 18, 2009)

Cracker's Phinn,

I have not seen the movie, but some of the quotes that you rebutted are from his Oprah interview, and not necessarily the movie.


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## nathansgirl1908 (Oct 24, 2009)

jamaraa said:


> Check back further in the thread. I did a nice debunk of the "strong Black woman" nonsense. We ARE vulnerable...we're women and human beings. Pretending to NOT be vulnerable is denying some of your humanity, IMHO.
> 
> I think some of the anger on the boards has nothing to do w/ that tho. Chris, it turns out, didn't even talk to his own wife about her hair practices, so what's the dealio? He lives w/ a BW, but he ONLY talks about women he doesn't live w/?  He sent his kid to a all White school and seems surprised that she feels "different"? Well Chris, what did you expect?



My friends and I were also talking about the fact that he didn't talk about his own wife.  I suspect that she didn't want to be involved in the project.  

I didn't know that he sent his girls to all White schools.  Black parents who choose to do that really shouldn't be surprised when their child comes home with questions like the one his little girl asked.  

And for the record, I didn't like his ultimate response to her question.  I feel like by saying, "what matters is what is IN your head, not ON your head," somewhat dodges the question.   That statement is true, but he should have also said something along the lines that all hair is good, especially if you want to have hair on your head and you have it (I say that because some people choose not to have hair and instead keep a very low cut or completely shave their head like Sheila bridges by choice).


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## almond eyes (Oct 24, 2009)

Sheila Bridges did not shave her head by choice, she suffers from alopecia and lost all her hair and eyebrows. She chose not to wear a wig to cover her condition.

Best,
Almond Eyes


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## maghreblover (Oct 24, 2009)

FluffyRed said:


> Agbani Darego!! Miss something from Africa



Miss World 2001 from Nigeria


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## maghreblover (Oct 24, 2009)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> DNA has proven that these populations are not "mixed."



Not that they're mixed, but in secondary school in Nigeria we studied the Fulani and they are descendants of maghrebs who migrated southwards.


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## nathansgirl1908 (Nov 29, 2009)

almond eyes said:


> Sheila Bridges did not shave her head by choice, she suffers from alopecia and lost all her hair and eyebrows. She chose not to wear a wig to cover her condition.
> 
> Best,
> Almond Eyes



Right.  She CHOSE not to wear a wig.  That still is a CHOICE she made which was in line with the point I was making.


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