# Is the Devil in Charge of Hell?



## sweetvi (Mar 25, 2013)

This has brought a new revelation for me.  For my whole life...I was taught people were being punished in hell as we speak and that everyone including the devil will be thrown in everlasting fire!

However doing this study changes everything I knew. Shimmie Laela Leigh moni and everyone else. AtlantaJJ.  Help! LOL

It teaches that :

1. Everyone who dies are in their graves waiting for the second death which is judgment day
 2. There is no everlasting fire nor are their any torment in Hell

3. Hell does not exist until Judgment day. The Devil is on earth.  However the word Hades has been interchangeable with the word He'll, so IMO the confusion lies there?



Lesson #11
Well? Does God really keep the devil on His payroll - is he the chief superintendent of hell measuring out the punishment of the lost? Nearly the entire world holds a very unbiblical view about hell, and you owe it to yourself to know what the Bible really says about it. Don't be fooled, because what you think about hell certainly affects what you think about God's character! Take a few moments to get the amazing facts you need to know today!

The wicked will not be punished until after the judgment.

1. How many lost souls are being punished in hell today?

"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." 2 Peter 2:9.

Answer:***There is not one single soul in hellfire today. The Bible says that God reserves, or holds back, the wicked until the day of judgment to be punished.


Sinners will be cast into hellfire at the end of the world -- not when they die.

2. When will sinners be cast into hellfire?

"So shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire." Matthew 13:40-42. "The word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." John 12:48.

Answer:***Sinners will be cast into hellfire at the great judgment day at the end of the world--not when they die. God would not punish a person in fire until his case was tried and decided in court at the end of the world. Nor would God burn a murderer who died 5,000 years ago 5,000 years longer than one who dies and deserves punishment for the same sin today.


All who have died, both good and evil, are in their graves awaiting the resurrection.

3. Where are sinners (who have died) now?

"The hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28, 29. "The wicked is reserved to the day of destruction." "Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb." Job 21:30, 32.

Answer:***The Bible is specific. Both the wicked and the righteous who have died are in their graves "sleeping" until the resurrection day.


Jesus died to save us from our sins. Those who do not accept His gift of salvation will receive death.

4. What is the end result of sin?

"The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23. "Sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." James 1:15. "God ... gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16.

Answer:***The wages (or punishment) for sin is death, not everlasting life in hellfire. The wicked "perish," or receive "death." The righteous receive "everlasting life."!


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## sweetvi (Mar 25, 2013)

5. What will happen to the wicked in hellfire?

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:8.

Answer:***The wicked die the second death in hellfire. If the wicked lived forever being tortured in hell, they would be immortal. But this is impossible, because the Bible says God "only hath immortality." 1 Timothy 6:16. When Adam and Eve were driven from the Garden of Eden, an angel was posted to guard the tree of life so that sinners would not eat of the tree and "live for ever." Genesis 3:22-24. The teaching that sinners are immortal in hell originated with Satan and is completely untrue. God prevented this when sin entered this earth by guarding the tree of life.

Bible Clear - Wicked Obliterated
The Bible says the wicked suffer "death" (Romans 6:23), will suffer "destruction" (Job 21:30), "shall perish" (Psalms 37:20), will "burn" up (Malachi 4:1), "shall be destroyed together" (Psalms 37:38), will "consume away" (Psalms 37:20), "shall be cut off" (Psalms 37:9), "shall be slain" (Psalms 62:3). God will "destroy" them (Psalms 145:20), and "fire shall devour them" (Psalms 21:9). Note that all of these references make it clear that the wicked die and are destroyed. They do not live forever in misery.


At the end of the world, fire will fall from heaven upon the wicked and devour them.

6. When and how will hellfire be kindled?

"So shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man ... shall cast them into a furnace of fire." Matthew 13:40-42. "They went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." Revelation 20:9. "The righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner." Proverbs 11:31.

Answer:***At the end of the world, God Himself will kindle hellfire. As the holy city comes down from God out of heaven (Revelation 21:2), the wicked attempt to capture it. At that time, God will rain down fire from heaven upon the earth, and it will devour the wicked. This fire is Bible hellfire.


Hell will be the entire world on fire. It will be 25,000 miles in circumference--its heat so great that everything on earth will be "burned up".

7. How big and how hot will hellfire be?

"The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." 2 Peter 3:10.

Answer:***Hellfire will be just as big as this earth because it will be the earth on fire. This fire will be so hot as to melt the earth and burn up all "the works that are therein." The atmospheric heavens will explode and "pass away with a great noise."


Jesus will insist upon just treatment for the wicked. Their degree of punishment will be fair and according to their works, as He promised.

8. How long will the wicked suffer in the fire?

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12. "And then he shall reward every man according to his works." Matthew 16:27. "That servant, which knew his lord's will, and ... neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes." Luke 12:47, 48.

Answer:***The Bible does not tell how long the wicked will be punished before receiving death in the fire. God does specifically state, however, that all will be punished according to their deeds. This means some will receive greater punishment than others, based upon their works.


God will recreate a new world where no trace of the former evils of this world will be seen.

9. Will the fire eventually go out?

"Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it." Isaiah 47:14. "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth." "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." Revelation 21:1, 4.

Answer:***Yes, indeed, the Bible specifically teaches that hellfire will go out and that there will not be left "a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it." The Bible also teaches that in God's new kingdom all "former things" will be passed away. Hell, being one of the former things, is included, so we have God's promise that it will be abolished.

Is God a Torturer?
If God tortured His enemies in a fiery horror chamber throughout eternity, He would be more vicious and heartless than men have ever been in the worst of war atrocities. An eternal hell of torment would be hell for God also, who loves even the vilest sinner.


The fires will burn until only ashes are left. Even the bones will be completely gone.


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## sweetvi (Mar 25, 2013)

The fires will burn until only ashes are left. Even the bones will be completely gone.

10. What will be left when the fire goes out?

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1, 3.

Answer:***Notice the verse does not say the wicked will burn like asbestos, as many today believe, but rather like stubble, which will be burned up. The little word "up" denotes completion. Nothing but ashes will be left when the fire goes out. In Psalms 37:10, 20, the Bible says the wicked will go up in smoke and be completely destroyed.


The fire from heaven will fall upon the wicked and destroy them, both body and soul.

11. Will the wicked enter hell in bodily form and be destroyed both soul and body?

"It is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." Matthew 5:30. "Rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:20.

Answer:***Yes. Real, live people enter hell in bodily form and are destroyed both soul and body. The fire from God out of heaven will fall upon real people and blot them out of existence.


The devil will be completely destroyed by fire.

12. Will the devil be in charge of hellfire?

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:10. "I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. ... And never shall thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:18, 19.

Answer:***Absolutely not! The devil will be cast into the fire, and it will turn him into ashes.



13. Does the word "hell" as used in the Bible always refer to a place of burning or punishment?

Answer:***No, the word "hell" is used 54 times in the Bible, and in only 12 cases does it refer to "a place of burning."

The word "hell" is translated from several different words with various meanings, as indicated below:


IN THE OLD TESTAMENT
31 times from "Sheol," which means the grave."

IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
10 times from "Hades," which means "the grave."
12 times from "Gehenna," which means "the place of burning."
*1 time from "Tartarus," which means "a place of darkness."
54 TIMES TOTAL


Note: The Greek word "Gehenna" (mentioned above) is a transliteration of the Hebrew "Ge-Hinnom," which means the "Valley of Hinnom." This valley, which lies immediately south and west of Jerusalem, was a place where dead animals, garbage, and other refuse were dumped. Fire burned constantly, as it does at modern sanitation dump sites. The Bible uses "Gehenna" or the "Valley of Hinnom" as a symbol of the fire that will destroy the lost at the end of time. The fire of Gehenna was not unending. Otherwise it would be still burning southwest of Jerusalem today. Neither will the fire of hell be unending.

Destroying sin, sinners, and Satan is the only way to make the universe safe for eternity.

14. What is God's real purpose in hellfire?

"Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." Matthew 25:41. "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:15. "For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be." "The enemies of the Lord ... shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalms 37:10, 20.

Answer:***God's purpose is that hell will destroy the devil and all sin and sinners and make the world safe for eternity. One sinner, if left on this planet, would be a deadly virus forever threatening the universe. It is God's plan to isolate sin and blot it out of existence for all time.

Eternal Hell Would Perpetuate Sin
An eternal hell of torment would perpetuate sin and make its eradication impossible. An eternal hell of torment is not part of God's great plan at all. Such a horrible theory is slander against the holy name of a loving God. The devil delights to see our loving Creator pictured as such a monstrous tyrant, and he alone can benefit from such teachings.

Eternal Hell a Man-made Theory
The "eternal hell of torment" theory originated not from the Bible, but from misguided people who were (perhaps inadvertently) led of the devil. And, incidentally, no one will be in heaven because he feared hell. People are saved because they love and obey Christ.


Jesus will be deeply saddened when He must destroy those whom He died to save.

15. Isn't the work of destroying sinners foreign to God's nature?

"As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?" Ezekiel 33:11. "For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." Luke 9:56. "For the Lord shall rise up ... that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act." Isaiah 28:21.

Answer:***Yes, the work of God has always been to save rather than destroy. The work of destroying the wicked in hellfire is so foreign to God's nature that the Bible calls it His "strange act." God's great heart will ache at the destruction of the wicked. Oh, how diligently He works to save every soul! But if one spurns His love and clings to sin, God will have no choice but to destroy the sinner with his sin when He rids the universe of that horrible, malignant growth called "sin" in the fires of the last day.


After sinners are destroyed, God will create a fantastic new earth for His people, where they will live in peace, joy, and love forever. Sin will never rise again.

16. What are God's post-hell plans for the earth and His people?

"He will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time." Nahum 1:9. "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind." Isaiah 65:17. "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain." Revelation 21:3, 4.

Answer:***After hellfire goes out, God will create a new earth and restore it to His peoplewith all the beauties and glories of Eden before sin entered. The horrors of sin and the past will be forgotten. Pain, death, tragedy, woe, tears, sickness, disappointment, sorrow, and all sin will be banished forever.

Sin Will Not Rise Again
God promises that sin will never rise again. His people will be filled with perfect peace, love, joy, and contentment. Their lives of complete happiness will be far more glorious and thrilling than mere words could ever describe. The real tragedy of hell is in missing heaven. A person who fails to enter this magnificent kingdom has made the saddest choice of a lifetime.


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## Shimmie (Mar 25, 2013)

Wow sweetvi ...    

Okay, I have take the time to read your posts and then 'think'...  and of course pray before I answer.   

I have to also call on some extra help here.   

Nice & Wavy 
pebbles 
Iwanthealthyhair67 
donna894 
BlackPearl1967 
Sashaa08 
Galadriel 
Belle Du Jour 
Supergirl 
mrselle 
momi 
BlackHairDiva 
MrsHaseeb 

Don't get mad at me for tagging you beautiful sisters.  I'm just not gonna tackle this one alone.    Nah-uh...   

I know I've missed some names and some good ones too... 

It's late and I'm sleepy.   

I will be back, though...  
:blowkiss:


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## Poohbear (Mar 25, 2013)

Hey sweetvi. I learned this about Hell from doing my own study as well. So many people think that when we die, we immediately go to either Heaven or Hell. That's not the case. The souls of the people who have already died are resting in their graves. No one is in Heaven or Hell yet (well actually the Lake of Fire yet since Hell is actually the grave). When Jesus returns, the dead shall rise. After Judgement Day, those who are not in the Book of Life will be thrown in the Lake of Fire with the devil and hell. God will destroy this world and create a new heaven and a new earth for those who are in the Book of Life.


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## lilikoi (Mar 25, 2013)

Thank you for this post!


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## sweetvi (Mar 25, 2013)

Shimmie. Thanks. I could not remember everyone?!   I need all the force because now I'm questioning all of stories and testimonies of people who have gone on and seen hell.


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## sweetvi (Mar 25, 2013)

Poohbear


Thank you girl...I finally understood and accepted this but the thing that threw me for a loop.....!???????  Is the fire everlasting? Do people burn in Hell forever? Is the fire meant to just destroy devil and the sinners and turn them into ashes?  This has really got me confuseddddd!

Everyone is welcomed to respond and scriptures would be just as good. I'm going to study more!


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## Poohbear (Mar 25, 2013)

sweetvi said:


> Poohbear
> 
> Thank you girl...I finally understood and accepted this but the thing that threw me for a loop.....!???????  Is the fire everlasting? Do people burn in Hell forever? Is the fire meant to just destroy devil and the sinners and turn them into ashes?  This has really got me confuseddddd!
> 
> Everyone is welcomed to respond and scriptures would be just as good. I'm going to study more!


No problem!

I was also taught the same thing as you. But after learning this on my own, it makes much more sense of the Bible than what was taught in church and from what church folks would say.

From reading the Book of Revelation, it seems like the fire is not everlasting. I looks like the fire comes to an end. When something is destroyed or burnt up, that's it. The fire eventually goes out and ashes remain.

I've only seen the phrase "eternal fire" used once in the bible. But I believe the use of this phrase means "eternal separation from God", not burning for eternity.

Here's the verse... Jude 1:7 - "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

I thought about how God destroyed the world once with the great flood in the Old Testament. I'm sure there were some wicked people who drowned in the flood. When a person drowns, they don't keep drowning forever and ever. Once their lungs are filled up with water and they can no longer breathe in oxygen, that's it. Once they have drowned, they are lifeless.


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## sweetvi (Mar 25, 2013)

Mark 9:48

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


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## Galadriel (Mar 26, 2013)

God created man and woman in His image (Genesis 1:27). What does this mean? It means God created us with a rational soul--we have the free will to choose God and love Him.

The soul and body are not the same thing. A human being is body + soul. The body is physical (our head, limbs, organs, etc.) and the soul is immaterial. Death is the separation of soul and body.

Scripture shows us that we continue to exist after death:

Luke 23:43 [Jesus to the thief on the cross who died on the same day as Him] And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, *today you will be with me in Paradise*.”

Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 

Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 

2 Corinthians 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be *away from the body and at home with the Lord*. 

Revelation 6:9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, *I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained*;

1 Peter 3:18-20 Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit. *So he went and preached to the spirits in prison—those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat.*

Mark 9:2-6 Six days later Jesus took Peter, James, and John, and led them up a high mountain to be alone. As the men watched, Jesus’ appearance was transformed, and his clothes became dazzling white, far whiter than any earthly bleach could ever make them. *Then Elijah and Moses appeared and began talking with Jesus.* Peter exclaimed, “Rabbi, it’s wonderful for us to be here! Let’s make three shelters as memorials—one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” He said this because he didn’t really know what else to say, for they were all terrified.


So clearly if our souls go on to exist after death, what happens to them? Sleeping is a biological function, not a spiritual one. When the Scriptures speak of someone "falling asleep," it is a euphemism for death (since the dead person looks as if asleep). Hebrews 9:27 tells us "It is appointed for men to die once, and then comes the judgment." From some of the verses just quoted, we can also see that souls are aware of their existence after death, and that things happen to them.

*What is Hell?*

Hell is the place and state of being where the souls of the damned receive justice. The punishments of Hell are:

1. Separation from God, and the inability to see Him and enjoy Him.

2. Sensory torments (i.e., hell fire, the stench, darkness).

3. Regret or remorse, knowing that the soul while alive on earth had freely chosen to reject God and love sin (note: this is not the same as repentance, for the damned lack sanctifying grace and cannot repent)

4. The knowledge that Hell is eternal and one's condition can never change.

*Is Hell really eternal?* 

Yes.

Jude 12-13 These are hidden reefs at your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, shepherds feeding themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted; wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, *for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever*.

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

2 Thessalonians 1:5-9 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. *They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord* and from the glory of his might,

Mark 9:42-48  “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea. “If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] “If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] “If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED. 


It is also interesting to note that the 1st and 2nd Century Christians understood this as well:

*Ignatius of Antioch (Overseer, disciple of John the Apostle)*
Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire, and so will anyone who listens to him (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2 [A.D. 110]).

*Clement (Overseer, disciple of Peter the Apostle)*
If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).

*Justin Martyr (2nd Century Christian Apologist)*
No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).

[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons (ibid. 52).

*Are there demons in Hell? Yes.*

2 Peter 2:4 For God did not spare even the angels who sinned. He threw them into hell, in gloomy pits of darkness, where they are being held until the day of judgment.


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## sweetvi (Mar 26, 2013)

Galadriel


Thanks...!

2 peter 2:4. Touched me. Now it seems they are chained up but what about the demons who are doing the dirty work on earth


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## momi (Mar 26, 2013)

Good Morning Ladies!

I'm at work today but will definitely check back in with a more detailed reply  however just with a glance I cannot say that I agree with 9 & 10.  


I believe hell is eternal as is it's fire and also to be absent from the body is to be present with The Lord. Secondly, if we only "sleep" then how would we explain the rich man and Lazarus account.  Although at that time it was Abraham's boosom they were both aware of their present state.  Anyway - my opinions will have to be validated with scripture of course so I'll check in later.

Ladies - have a wonderful day!


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## AtlantaJJ (Mar 26, 2013)

Thank you so much sweetvi for tagging me! Wow, this is going to take some study and prayer.  

You brought this question to the right place!  This is an excellent thread and an opportune time for this study because it's Holy Week.


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## AtlantaJJ (Mar 26, 2013)

sweetvi said:


> Mark 9:48
> 
> Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.



This is listed 3 times! Mark 9:44; Mark 9:46 and Mark 9:48.

That's a lot of emphasis there, where it's said 3 times in a row.


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## MrsHaseeb (Mar 26, 2013)

Interesting topic. Thanks for the tag Shimmie.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Mar 26, 2013)

I'm at work too, so I'll be in out during the day that will give me time to read all the posts...this can make great conversation and there is so much to learn here..gonna get me my morning java (not from you know who I might add).


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## Galadriel (Mar 26, 2013)

sweetvi said:


> @Galadriel
> 
> 
> Thanks...!
> ...



Yes, Scripture also shows us that some evil spirits do roam the earth. We see examples in the exorcisms performed by Jesus and His disciples.


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## Galadriel (Mar 26, 2013)

AtlantaJJ said:


> This is listed 3 times! Mark 9:44; Mark 9:46 and Mark 9:48.
> 
> That's a lot of emphasis there, where it's said 3 times in a row.



 Some people are surprised to learn that Jesus speaks about Hell more than anyone else in the Bible (around 33 times).


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## sweetvi (Mar 26, 2013)

Galadriel

Thank you so much for your reply. I listed that scripture in reference to that the fire is everlasting? Other says the worms never die


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## Galadriel (Mar 26, 2013)

sweetvi said:


> @Galadriel
> 
> Thank you so much for your reply. I listed that scripture in reference to that the fire is everlasting? Other says the worms never die



Yes, sweetvi it says the fire is unquenchable and the worm never dies. 

The unquenching fire = the pain of sense 

The undying worm = the pain of loss (i.e., the undying "worm of conscience," or remorse)


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## sweetvi (Mar 26, 2013)

Oh okay sort of making sense. I'm still going to continue to pray.  Thanks!!  Can't wait to hear other responses


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## blazingthru (Mar 26, 2013)

sweetvi said:


> Shimmie. Thanks. I could not remember everyone?!   I need all the force because now I'm questioning all of stories and testimonies of people who have gone on and seen hell.



WoW!!! thats really all I can say.  I am so glad to see your post and to see that some one else got it. Yeah, so exciting doing my happy dance.


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## blazingthru (Mar 26, 2013)

But what about that worm which dieth not? Many have read the words of Jesus about hell, "Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched."* Mark 9:45, 46.* Some have interpreted the worm to be the soul. Is that what Jesus meant? Nowhere in the Bible is there any allusion to the soul as a worm. 

In this instance Jesus used the word "Gehenna" for the word "hell." It so happened that Gehenna was an actual place of burning just outside the walls of Jerusalem. No doubt, Christ's listeners could see the smoke curling up from the Valley of Gehenna, where dead bodies and garbage were constantly being burned. If anything fell outside the destructive flames, it was quickly consumed by maggots or worms. With the vivid scenes of utter extinction before their eyes, Jesus used the Gehenna fire as an example of the complete destruction of hell-fire. The fire was never quenched, and the worms were constantly at work upon the bodies-a picture of total destruction. 

Perhaps the most easily misconstrued text about hell is John's allusion to the smoke ascending "for ever and ever." For those who are unfamiliar with other uses of this phrase in the Bible, it can be very confusing indeed. But a comparison of verses in both Old and New Testaments reveal that the words "for ever" are used 57 times in the Bible in reference to something that has already come to an end. In other words, "for ever" does not always mean "without end."


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## blazingthru (Mar 26, 2013)

This is why the bible is so every exciting, you must study it. not just read it. Study brings new results and it shows your desire to draw closer to God and your desire to understand the words he is trying to tell you.  If we study we begin to see there is a difference in the Term Hell and how often it is used. It simple means the grave. Hell is the grave. In the end this grave will be aflamed and all in it will turn to ash on its own time.  You agree everything burns at different rates, so shall the wicked. Until Sin is forever removed from the earth.


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## Galadriel (Mar 26, 2013)

The concept of a non-eternal Hell stems from early heresies which often rejected the immortality of the soul.



> Many admit the  existence  of hell, but deny the  eternity  of its punishment. Conditionalists  hold only a hypothetical  immortality  of the  soul, and assert that after undergoing a  certain amount of punishment, the  souls  of the wicked will be annihilated.  *Among the  Gnostics  the Valentinians  held this doctrine, and later on also Arnobius, the  Socinians...*
> (Catholic Encyclopedia)



From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

The Latin   infernus  (  inferum, inferi  ), the Greek  Hades  , and the  Hebrew  sheol  correspond to the word   hell  . 

Infernus is  derived from the root   in  ; hence it designates hell  as a  place within and below the earth.   

Haides  , formed from the   root   fid  , to see, and   a  privative, denotes an  invisible, hidden,  and dark place; thus it is similar to the term  hell   . 

The derivation of   sheol  is  doubtful. It is generally supposed to  come  from the Hebrew root meaning, "to be sunk in, to be hollow";   accordingly it denotes a cave or a place under the earth. 

In the Old Testament  ( Septuagint  hades  ;  Vulgate  infernus  ) sheol is used  quite in general to designate the kingdom of the dead, of the  good ( Genesis 37:35 )  as well as of the bad ( Numbers 16:30 ); it means hell in the strict sense of the term, as well  as the  limbo  of the Fathers. But,  as the  limbo  of the Fathers ended  at the time of  Christ's Ascension,  hades  ( Vulgate  infernus  ) in the  New  Testament always designates the hell of the damned. Since Christ's Ascension  the just no  longer go down to the lower world, but they dwell in  heaven  ( 2 Corinthians 5:1 ). 

However, in the  New Testament   the term   Gehenna  is  used more frequently in preference to   hades   , as a name for  the place of punishment of the damned. Gehenna is the   Hebrew  gê-hinnom  ( Nehemiah 11:30 ), or the longer form  gê-ben-hinnom  ( Joshua 15:8 ), and   gê-benê-hinnom  ( 2 Kings 23:10 ) "valley of the sons of  Hinnom". Hinnom seems to be the name of a  person  not otherwise known. The Valley of  Hinnom is south of  Jerusalem   and is  now called Wadi er-rababi. It was  notorious  as the scene, in  earlier days, of  the horrible worship of  Moloch. For  this reason it was defiled by  Josias  ( 2 Kings 23:10 ),  cursed  by  Jeremias  ( Jeremiah  7:31-33 ), and held in  abomination by the  Jews, who,  accordingly,  used the name of this valley to designate the abode of  the damned  (Targ. Jon., Gen., iii, 24;  Henoch, c. xxvi). And  Christ  adopted this usage of the term.  Besides Hades and Gehenna, we find in the  New Testament  many other names for the  abode of the damned. 

It is called "lower hell" ( Vulgate  tartarus  ) ( 2 Peter 2:4 ), "abyss" ( Luke 8:31 and elsewhere), "place of  torments" ( Luke 16:28 ), "pool of  fire" ( Revelation 19:20 and  elsewhere), "furnace of fire" ( Matthew 13:42, 50 ), "unquenchable fire"  ( Matthew 3:12 , and elsewhere),  "everlasting fire" ( Matthew 18:8 ; 25:41 ;  Jude 7 ), "exterior darkness" ( Matthew 7:12 ;  22:13 ;  25:30 ), "mist" or "storm of darkness"  ( 2 Peter 2:17 ;  Jude  13 ). The state of the damned is  called "destruction" (  apoleia  ,  Phil., iii, 19, and  elsewhere), "perdition" (  olethros  ,  1 Timothy 6:9 ), "eternal destruction"  (  olethros aionios  ,  2 Thessalonians 1:9 ), "corruption" (  phthora  ,  Galatians 6:8 ), "death" ( Romans 6:21 ), "second death" ( Revelation 2:11 and elsewhere).


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## Poohbear (Mar 26, 2013)

sweetvi said:


> Mark 9:48
> 
> Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.



Wow! This verse really changes things about whether or not the hell fire ends or keeps going.  Verses 43, 44, 45, and 46 mentions that same phrase of the "fire is not quenched."

In my life applications bible, it mentions that Jesus pictured the serious and eternal consequences of sins, and to the Jews, worms and fire represented internal and external pain.


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## blazingthru (Mar 26, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> The concept of a non-eternal Hell stems from early heresies which often rejected the immortality of the soul.



Only speaking for myself and based on my study of the bible, Only God has Immortality. but look it up you will not find in the entire bible immortal soul. Because we do not have an immortal soul. Only God has Immortality. 

Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10 The dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun [in this life]. ... For there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave. 

Eternal life is a gift. 

Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV 1900)
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Job 4:17 (KJV 1900)
17 	Shall mortal man be more just than God? Shall a man be more pure than his maker?

1 Timothy 6:15, 16 The King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality.

1 Corinthians 15:51–53 (KJV 1900)
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, *at the last trump*: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible. must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. At the coming of the Lord all of this will happen not at death! but at the Last Trumpet. Now guest what. 

Who is coming out of the graves? All men?  Nope
1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV 1900)
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

I totally and completely reject the immortality of the soul, Immortality is a free gift from God for those who choose to be obedient and obey and follow his word. Not for those who are determine to be lost, are lost and will remain lost.


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## Poohbear (Mar 26, 2013)

I came across this interesting site that talks about eternal hell fire. This site is claiming that the words "eternal" , "forever", or "everlasting" in reference to hell fire does not necessarily mean never ending....

http://www.helltruth.com/q-a/no-eternal-fire-but-yes-eternal-life.aspx


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## Poohbear (Mar 26, 2013)

sweetvi Galadriel and others,

Here is a passage from another site about hellfire not being infinite and it explains Mark 9 as well:

It’s interesting to note that Jesus used this particular locale, and what usually occurred there, to help us understand the fate the wicked and unrepentant sinner will suffer in the future (Mark 9:47-48). *This fiery punishment meant they will be consumed by the fire and not the eternal torment wrongly portrayed by Christianity throughout the ages.* The text also referred to the worm that dieth not. However, the worm is not symbolic of sinners, but maggots among the garbage. No one is in Hell right now. Scriptures show that this Hellfire is to come (Daniel 12:1-12; John 5:25-29; 2 Peter 2:9; Revelation 20:13-15).

Various denominations have long held the view that Hell is an everlasting punishment based on Revelation 14:11, “…the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever;” Matthew 25:46, “…and these will go away into eternal punishment but the righteous into eternal life;” Revelation 20:10, “…the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire…and they will be tormented day and night forever;” Isaiah 34:5-10, “…the streams thereof shall become burning pitch…the smoke thereof shall go up forever and ever;” and Jude 13, “…to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.”

*In all the passages above, the Greek word, aion translated ‘forever,’ does not mean eternity or infinity. Forever and ever simply means the object will continue to last as long as conditions permit-a limited time. The fire will burn until everything is consumed or destroyed.*

Matthew 3:12; Mark 9:43; Luke 3:17; and Isaiah 34:10 speak of a fire that shall never be quenched. *When we look at the Greek for unquenchable, we realize Jesus was simply saying that the fire will burn until the bodies of the wicked are consumed. An unquenched fire is one that has not been extinguished. It burns itself out when it consumes everything and has no more combustible material to keep it going.* Ezekiel 20:47 speaks of fire that consumes entirely. In Jeremiah 17:27, Yahweh said he would kindle an unquenchable fire in Jerusalem. This was fulfilled in 2 Chronicles 36:19-21. Is Jerusalem still burning?

The following scriptures speak of eternal judgment: Jude 7, “…even as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them…suffering the vengeance of eternal fire;” Mattthew 25:46, “…these shall go into everlasting punishment;” Matthew 25:41, “…depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire;” Hebrews 6:2, “…resurrection of the dead and of eternal judgment.”

In the above texts, the Greek for eternal is aionou, which means final and complete. *Sodom and Gomorrah are not burning- they burnt to ash long ago (Matthew 11:23; 2 Peter 2:6). Eternal destruction means the consequence is eternal. Once you are burned up, you will not return *(Psalms 104:35).

Source: http://www.prevailmagazine.org/is-there-an-eternal-hellfire/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Let me know what you ladies think of this.


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## blazingthru (Mar 26, 2013)

Poohbear said:


> Wow! This verse really changes things about whether or not the hell fire ends or keeps going.  Verses 43, 44, 45, and 46 mentions that same phrase of the "fire is not quenched."
> 
> In my life applications bible, it mentions that Jesus pictured the serious and eternal consequences of sins, and to the Jews, worms and fire represented internal and external pain.



This simple means that no one can put the fire out. it will burn until it is Ash. that is all it means. Remember this earth will be made over brand new. Sin shall never arise again on it. we shall tread upon the ash. let me find the scripture, Malachi 4:3, You'll tread down the wicked. They shall be ashes under the soles of your feet.  not only that the lord says he will bring the fire right down in front of us. Those who are saved will be able to view the destruction of the wicked and the devil himself, the fire will come out of the devil. 

*Ezekiel 28 * therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.


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## Poohbear (Mar 26, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> *This simple means that no one can put the fire out. it will burn until it is Ash. that is all it means.* Remember this earth will be made over brand new. Sin shall never arise again on it. we shall tread upon the ash. let me find the scripture, Malachi 4:3, You'll tread down the wicked. They shall be ashes under the soles of your feet.  not only that the lord says he will bring the fire right down in front of us. Those who are saved will be able to view the destruction of the wicked and the devil himself, the fire will come out of the devil.
> 
> *Ezekiel 28 * therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.



blazingthru - that makes perfect sense!


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## sweetvi (Mar 26, 2013)

^^^^^. It's coming together!! Adam and Eve  lost that gift of immorality when they sinned and was casted out! The angel stood guard so they do not reenter


Genesis 3:24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

So why should the punished get the gift of life? Hmmmm.   Now I wonder if the earth will be destroyed with Satan, his angels and the sinners?  Then the new earth will be created?


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## blazingthru (Mar 26, 2013)

sweetvi said:


> ^^^^^. It's coming together!! Adam and Eve  lost that gift of immorality when they sinned and was casted out! The angel stood guard so they do not reenter
> 
> 
> Genesis 3:24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
> ...



yes exactly, the earth will burn up and all of its terrible memories, Gone turned to ash, that is why we should not focus on the tangable things that are going to burn up anyway.  I say that all the time, its all going to burn anyway. I rather put things in my mansion in heaven. So the next question is how do we do that, but that's for another study.


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## sweetvi (Mar 26, 2013)

Okay.....Yayyyyy.  I'm feeling so much better. You have no idea how anxious I was!  My friend came to a conclusion that Mary Kay Baxter's book sounddddds very similar to Dante's Inferno !  However I will not judge because who knows what God revealed to her...and she only has to answer to God


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## blazingthru (Mar 26, 2013)

I would not recommend reading her books or any books relating to someone's experiences to heaven and or to hell.  The Bible is our example, all who have died and risen through Jesus had nothing to say.  Not one word. There was nothing to say, they probably didn't even know they died.  Which all of us at some point in time, can't remember when we fell asleep. One minute you were so into the program the next the alarm went off.  In every instance we read the word none of the people that were risen from the dead by Jesus or the disciples had a story to tell not even one. because it is just  sleep.


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## Shimmie (Mar 26, 2013)

blazingthru and Poohbear, God brought you right in.   Thank you so much.  Please accept my apology for 'forgetting' your names.  I was so sleepy when I posted last night.    The two of you are awesome.  Again,I apologize for missing your names.   

No Roses, but a true hug.


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## Galadriel (Mar 26, 2013)

Thanks for the tag, Poohbear

Let's look at Matthew 18:8:



> "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and  throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame,  than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire,"



The Greek word used here for "*eternal*" is *aionion*. If we are to interpret this "eternal" as a _non-everlasting_ one, a temporary condition with an ending, etc. we're going to run into some problems, because this same Greek word is also used to speak of everlasting life with God.

*Aionion* also appears in the following verses:

Matthew 19:16-17


> And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain *eternal* life?" And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is [only] One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."



John 3:14-15


> "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have *eternal* life.



2 Peter 1:10-11


> Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; for in this way the entrance into the *eternal* kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.



Are we then to understand that God's kindgom is not everlasting (_aionion_)? That it somehow ends in duration as is being suggested? Will our existence in Heaven end or be temporary since eternal life is spoken of, using the Greek _aionion_?

If God's kingdom is eternal, and the existence of the Blessed in Heaven is eternal (_aionion_), then the damnation of the damned is eternal (_aionion_).

One of the most telling passages is Matthew 25:41-46

 "Then He will also say to those on His left, *Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;* for I was hungry, and you gave Me [nothing] to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' *"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."* 

Also, just taking a step back and historically observing Christianity, you'll see that the earliest Christians, the ones who knew, talked with, and were taught by the Apostles themselves, reaffirmed an eternal Hell. The only people who taught otherwise were a sect of Gnostics (and if you're familiar with Gnosticism, their doctrines were C-R-A-Z-Y!) and later certain Protestant sects pick these up. Most major Protestant churches (Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist, etc.) teach that Hell is eternal.





Poohbear said:


> @sweetvi @Galadriel and others,
> 
> Here is a passage from another site about hellfire not being infinite and it explains Mark 9 as well:
> 
> ...


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## Galadriel (Mar 26, 2013)

Shimmie said:


> @blazingthru and @Poohbear, God brought you right in.   Thank you so much.  Please accept my apology for 'forgetting' your names.  I was so sleepy when I posted last night.    The two of you are awesome.  Again,I apologize for missing your names.
> 
> No Roses, but a true hug.


I still think you're one of THE nicest ladies here, hands down .


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## Galadriel (Mar 26, 2013)

sweetvi said:


> Okay.....Yayyyyy.  I'm feeling so much better. You have no idea how anxious I was!  My friend came to a conclusion that Mary Kay Baxter's book sounddddds very similar to Dante's Inferno !  However I will not judge because who knows what God revealed to her...and she only has to answer to God



Awww, I LOVE Dante! I know the Divine Comedy like the back of my hand. However, Dante's "Inferno" is a beautiful allegory, a poem. He did not really have that experience, nor did he intend to give that impression.


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## Shimmie (Mar 26, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> I still think you're one of THE nicest ladies here, hands down .



 

So are you...


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## Galadriel (Mar 26, 2013)

Just also wanted to add this explanation about "eternal" and "forever" from a Protestant Christian apologetics website (because most Protestants also teach that Hell is eternal):

Is "forever and ever" without end?

The phrase "forever and ever" is used both of describing God's eternal worth and the duration of eternal damnation. The exact same Greek phrase is used in each of the verses in the table below.

forever and ever

aionas ton aionon
"ages of the ages"


Eternal - without end	Eternal Damnation

"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen," (1 Tim. 1:17).

". . . To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever" (Rev. 5:13).


"And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! Her smoke rises up forever and ever" (Rev. 19:3).

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10).

The Greek phrase aionas ton aionon, which is translated "forever and ever," occurs 18 times in the Greek New Testament.  In 17 of them, the phrase means without end, extending into infinity.  In Rev. 19:3, the phrase is used to describe the destruction of the great whore of Babylon (Rev. 17:1,4) whose smoke ascends forever and ever.  It too is eternal and it signifies the beginning of the eternal judgment that comes upon her.

Also worth examining is  Rev. 14:11: "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

The Greek in Rev. 14:11 is only slightly different.  In the table above, "forever and ever" is translated from the Greek, aionas ton aionon, which is literally "ages of the of ages."  In Rev. 14:11, the Greek is aionas aionon which is literally, "ages of ages."  In the latter, the single Greek word "of the" is missing.  But it is not necessary and does not change the meaning of the text.  Therefore, the scripture teaches the smoke of their torment goes up forever, without end.


Unquenchable Fire

Some believe that the fires of hell are symbolic and/or temporal.  But the following verses show that they are not.

Matt. 3:12 says, "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (See also Luke 3:17.)

Mark 9:43 says, "And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire." The word "unquenchable" is asbestos in the Greek.  According to the enhanced Strong's lexicon, it means "unquenchable, the eternal hell fire to punish the damned."

The following citations are from Greek dictionaries and Lexicons.  They show that the word "unquenchable," which is asbestos in the Greek, (which occurs only in Matt. 3:12, Luke 3:17, and Mark 9:43) means unquenchable, without end.

    "unquenchable, inextinguishable"2
    "not quenched"3
    "pertaining to a fire that cannot be put out" - "unquenchable."4
    "unquenched, unquenchable"5
    "that cannot be put out"6
    "inextinguishable"7 

Is hell eternal?  Yes it is.  Are its fires without end?  Yes they are.  Is it a pleasant doctrine to discuss?  Not really.  But, hell is real. This is all the more reason to preach the gospel.  Jesus said,

    "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8).


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## sweetvi (Mar 26, 2013)

Galadriel. Poohbear blazingthru

Sorry to put you guys on the spot

Okay a friend if more mine is also studying this as well and she asked a good question? She asked are we wrong to think heaven is infinite? The bible refers to heaven as well as hell as Eternal, and if we all conclude Hell will not be eternal then what about heaven?


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## Galadriel (Mar 26, 2013)

sweetvi said:


> @Galadriel. @Poohbear @blazingthru
> 
> Sorry to put you guys on the spot
> 
> Okay a friend if more mine is also studying this as well and she asked a good question? She asked are we wrong to think heaven is infinite? The bible refers to heaven as well as hell as Eternal, and if we all conclude Hell will not be eternal then what about heaven?



sweetvi you may have missed my recent post (post #38 or #39) but I addressed the issue. I think that's a very logical question to ask, because the Greek _aionion_ for "eternal" or "everlasting" is used in Scriptures for *BOTH Heaven and Hell*, so why is it that Hell is interpreted as not-forever, but Heaven is forever?


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## sweetvi (Mar 26, 2013)

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:23).

"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son so that anyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16)



The Lord Jesus Christ proclaimed, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand" (John 10:28-29b).

And I'm pretty sure there are many more....


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## sweetvi (Mar 26, 2013)

You did and I just read it!!  Thanks


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## Laela (Mar 26, 2013)

Hiya sweetvi,  Jesus' death, descension to hell, resurrection and ascension to the Father, serves as the guide.  I believe both to be eternal states for man after death because that's what the Bible says.

_"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels ..."_  -*Matt 25: 40-41*

On the cross, Jesus promised eternal life to the man being hung with Him who believed: _"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise"_ *- Luke 23:43*

Jesus was hung between two men, one on His left, another on His right. One believed Him, the other rebuked Him. His arms outstretched in the direction of each man. If that other man had believed, Jesus would've forgiven him and he'd get the same promise. So this is a great lesson on choosing to believe.

_ [Side note:_ There is doctrinal argument about what Jesus means by "today" concerning paradise. I don't see the point, because God cannot be contained. He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end...  ]

On Paradise:
_"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."_ - *Rev 2:7*


-----
Glad to see you excited ... I encourage you to ask God to guide you to revelation knowledge on heaven and hell, as you continue to study His Word.


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## Galadriel (Mar 26, 2013)

This is a very good discussion--and it just emphasizes to me how much I DON'T want people to go Hell, and how important it is to introduce the Gospel to people and contend for the faith.

"O my Jesus, forgive us our sins. Save us from the fires of Hell. Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those who are in most need of Your mercy."

Indeed!


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## momi (Mar 26, 2013)

Whew - I have enjoyed reading everyones responses!  Just my two cents  - I believe hell is clearly eternal (like everlasting) just as heaven will be (Glory to God)!

Since eternal is used for both hell and heaven to take the position that it is only temporary would mean that we would only enjoy heaven until for a season as well.  One would have to do some major reconstruction in order to hold to that theory.  I believe that whenever possible we should read the Bible literally.

If The Lord wanted us to understand eternal as anything other than (forever and ever) I believe He would have had Inspired the writers to use a word more fitting ... like season or span of time.


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## momi (Mar 26, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> This is a very good discussion--and it just emphasizes to me how much I DON'T want people to go Hell, and how important it is to introduce the Gospel to people and contend for the faith.
> 
> "O my Jesus, forgive us our sins. Save us from the fires of Hell. Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those who are in most need of Your mercy."
> 
> Indeed!



Amen Galadriel - this is the bottom line right here!  He desires that no one should perish! 

Seek the Lord while He may be found - call on Him while He is near!


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## AtlantaJJ (Mar 27, 2013)

My brother in Christ lead me to this site for study purposes on this topic:
http://www.preparingforeternity.com/hellfire.htm

• Will there come a day of destruction for the wicked?
"That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath." Job 21:30. 
• How will they be destroyed?
"Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them." Psalms 21:9.

• What will happen to evildoers?
"For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth." Psalms 37:9.

• What will happen to the wicked?
"For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be." Psalms 37:10.

• Will the wicked go on living throughout eternity?
"But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalms 37:20.

• So the wicked will be destroyed and not burn forever?
"But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off." Psalms 37:38.

• But doesn't "cut off" only mean they will be separated from God?
"As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God." Psalms 68:2.

• So then this must mean that the wicked will be no more or consumed?
"Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD." Psalms 104:35.

• So there will be a final destruction of the wicked, they will not burn in hell for eternity?
"The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy." Psalms 145:20.

• What method will God use to destroy the wicked?
"Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it." Isaiah 47:14.

• But I thought the soul never dies?
"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4.

• Will the wicked be burned up completely?
"Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee." Ezekiel 28:18.

• So they will cease to exist? 
"All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:19.

• How does God feel about the final destruction of the wicked?
"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" Ezekiel 33:11.

• So after the destruction of the wicked, sin will never rise up again?
"What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time. For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry." Nahum 1:9-10.

• How complete will the final destruction of the wicked be? 
"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1.

• Does the New Testament talk about the destruction of the wicked?
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:" Matthew 7:13

• Does the New Testament speak about the soul dieing?
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28. 

• When will all of this take place?
"As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world." Matthew 13:40.

• Matthew 25:41 speaks of "everlasting fire" for the wicked. Does it go out?
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" Matthew 25:41.?
NOTE: Yes, according to the Bible, it does. We must let the Bible explain itself. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with everlasting, or eternal, fire and that fire turned them "into ashes" as a warning to "those that after should live ungodly."
"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 1:7.
"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;" 2 Peter 2:6.
These cities are not burning today. The fire went out after everything was burned up. Likewise, everlasting fire will go out after it has turned the wicked to ashes.
"And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts." Malachi 4:3.
The effects of the fire are everlasting, but not the burning itself.

• Doesn't Matthew 25:46 say the wicked will receive "everlasting punishment"?
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." Matthew 25:46.
NOTE: Notice the word is punishment, not punishing. Punishing would be continuous, while punishment is one act. The punishment of the wicked is death, and this death is everlasting. Nowhere in Scripture will you find that the wicked will receive eternal life, only the righteous.

• What will happen to the saved?
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16.

• What are the wages of sin according to the book of Romans?
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23.

• What will happen to the devil, will he be destroyed also?
"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;" Hebrews 2:14.

• Why is it impossible for sinners to be in the presence of God?
"For our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29.

• What example does the Bible use to show that God will destroy the wicked by fire?
"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;" 2 Peter 2:6.

• Where will this fire occur which destroys the wicked?
"But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." 2 Peter 3:7.

• Doesn't God want us to repent?
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9.

• What will happen to the whole earth?
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." 2 Peter 3:10.

.

Sent from my iPad 3 using LHCF


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## AtlantaJJ (Mar 27, 2013)

Part 2

• If we miss out on the first resurrection, will we have a "second chance"?
"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." Revelation 20:6.

• Where will the fire come from?
"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." Revelation 20:9.

• What is the second death?
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." Revelation 20:14.

• Are there any more verses that talk about the second death?
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:8.

• What about the verse in Revelation 20:10 where it talks about the devil, the beast and false prophet being tormented for ever and ever. Doesn't that show that hell fire is forever or eternal?
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Revelation 20:10. 
NOTE: The term "for ever," as used in the Bible, means simply a period of time, limited or unlimited. It is used 56 times in the Bible in connection with things that have already ended.* It is like the word "tall," which means something different in describing men, trees, or mountains. In Jonah 2:6, "for ever" means "three days and nights."
"I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God." Jonah 2:6. (See also Jonah 1:17.)
In Deuteronomy 23:3, this means "10 generations." In the case of man, this means "as long as he lives" or "until death." (See 1 Samuel 1:22,28; Exodus 21:6; Psalm 48:14.) So the wicked will burn in the fire as long as they live, or until death. This fiery punishment for sin will vary according to the degree of sins for each individual, but after the punishment, the fire will go out. The teaching of eternal torment has done more to drive people to atheism and insanity than any other invention of the devil. It is slander upon the loving character of a tender, gracious heavenly Father and has done untold harm to the Christian cause.
*To check in a concordance, look up the word "ever".

All text from the King James Bible,
all emphasis supplied

Sent from my iPad 3 using LHCF


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## blazingthru (Mar 27, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> sweetvi you may have missed my recent post (post #38 or #39) but I addressed the issue. I think that's a very logical question to ask, because the Greek _aionion_ for "eternal" or "everlasting" is used in Scriptures for *BOTH Heaven and Hell*, so why is it that Hell is interpreted as not-forever, but Heaven is forever?



Well the bible says there will be a new earth and a new heaven.  
*
Isaiah 65:17*
King James Version (KJV)
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
*
Revelation 21*
King James Version (KJV)
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


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## sweetvi (Mar 27, 2013)

AtlantaJJ.  Love it!!!  Thankssssss

I hope this cleared many things for people , and/or caused to seek answer for themselves using discernment and the Holy Spirit.!!

Don't want to offend anyone with this post but God tells us to seek the truth for ourselves and test everything! Yasssss!

Reminds me of that song by Hillsong..Lead Me to the Cross


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## blazingthru (Mar 27, 2013)

All I can say is AMEN and AMEN. Let the bible explain itself.


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## Galadriel (Mar 27, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> All I can say is AMEN and AMEN. Let the bible explain itself.



I would say use proper Biblical hermeneutics (the study and interpretation of Scripture is called hermeneutics). This is something even Protestants teach. 

Oddly, I earned a minor in Biblical Studies from a Protestant Evangelical university .

"Let the Bible explain" itself unfortunately is a roundabout way of saying "read and interpret based on your own judgment." I have encountered homosexuals who will quote Scripture to try and prove their lifestyles were not sinful (they would quote St. Paul and argue that he condemned temple prostitution and not gay sex, for example). 

So I would caution everyone to be careful with your hermeneutics .

Blazingthru rejects that the soul exists after death (immortality), and wrongly confuses God's eternal nature with immortality (the angels are immortal, but are not divine, so immortality isn't solely an attribute of God). 

I believe she also wrongly goes against, due to her particular denomination, against every Christian teaching for 2,000 years, even among Protestants, asserts that Hell is not eternal and that souls will only suffer temporarily before going out of existence.


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 27, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> I would say use proper Biblical hermeneutics (the study and interpretation of Scripture is called hermeneutics). This is something even Protestants teach.
> 
> Oddly, I earned a minor in Biblical Studies from a Protestant Evangelical university .
> 
> ...


I agree 100% with the bolded quote.  I also agree with the highlight in blue.  This happens a lot with many different denominations


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## Galadriel (Mar 27, 2013)

Nice & Wavy said:


> I agree 100% with the bolded quote.  I also agree with the highlight in blue.  This happens a lot with many different denominations



And my disagreement lies with the particular doctrines that reject the immortality of the soul and a non-eternal Hell, and not with blazingthru personally.

Jehovah's Witnesses for example, on the claim they are using Scripture to interpret Scripture, reject the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus.

About 3-4 months ago someone argued here in CF that Jesus and the archangel Michael were the same person--and they pulled out their Scripture verses to support their claim.

So I would definitely say that just because someone says, "I believe X because look at Scriptures 1, 2, and 3" doesn't automatically mean that person's interpretation is correct or that X is correct.

It should raise a red flag for us that the Christians who lived with and knew the Apostles themselves, taught an eternal Hell, but someone comes along 1,800+ years later saying Scripture REALLY teaches that Hell is not eternal. 

It also raises a red flag for me that the Gnostics taught that Hell is not eternal, because the Gnostics also denied Jesus' divinity, taught Dualism, that the God of the Old Testament was evil, and that you should kill yourself to release your pure soul from your evil body.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Mar 27, 2013)

another perfect example of why Holy Spirit is so important, He brings the revelation.



Galadriel said:


> I would say use proper Biblical hermeneutics (the study and interpretation of Scripture is called hermeneutics). This is something even Protestants teach.
> 
> Oddly, I earned a minor in Biblical Studies from a Protestant Evangelical university .
> 
> ...


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## MrsHaseeb (Mar 27, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> I would say use proper Biblical hermeneutics (the study and interpretation of Scripture is called hermeneutics). This is something even Protestants teach.
> 
> Oddly, I earned a minor in Biblical Studies from a Protestant Evangelical university .
> 
> ...



Our soul will be spending eternity somewhere, that's certain.


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## blazingthru (Mar 27, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> I would say use proper Biblical hermeneutics (the study and interpretation of Scripture is called hermeneutics). This is something even Protestants teach.
> 
> Oddly, I earned a minor in Biblical Studies from a Protestant Evangelical university .
> 
> ...



Yes, I would agree. I totally reject, based on my own studies. Eternal Damnation.  Completely totally without hesitation reject as well as any teachings that come out of the Catholic Faith.  Any and all. That being said doesn't mean I don't respect Catholic's, I do not harbor any animosity towards those of the catholic faith, If it wasn't for the kindest of the Nuns I would not have finished high school or received some of the help that I needed at the times in which they were desperately sought. I grew up Baptist and Methodist and I reject those teachings as well, some of it I Kept because most faiths have some of the truth but not all. Yes that is correct Hell is not Eternal and the people, because body and soul is one thing, not separate things, without the breath of life your just a body. with the breath of life you are body and soul. (not a spirit) Nope. Those people who are lost with the fallen Angels and Satan will all perish in the lake of fire and will no longer have a part in the new life evermore. They can't burn forever, because this earth is where they will burn, and we the saints will see this and they will be ash and we will walk over it. as the grass grows and the trees bloom after a while they will be forever forgotten by everyone accept our lord and savior. 

I believe we have our own walk with God and as we study the bible and we are sincere, God reveals more and more of himself to us and many chose to walk away from the faith they were raised in because they no longer agree with the teachings. I however, chose my faith based on my own personal studies, My studies created a desire in me to find a church that was following the scriptures and obeying them. It was not an easy decisions, i used the forum to help me make the decision. So my faith has not influence me. I study the bible before I even knew what a Seventh Day Adventist was. Regardless when I make my case, I use the scriptures, not some teachings from the SDA although as of yet, i have yet to find a teaching from them that disagrees with the scriptures. But sometimes, The point I am trying to make sounds better coming from a different source then myself as I am a horrible writer.


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## Galadriel (Mar 27, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> Our soul will be spending eternity somewhere, that's certain.



Agreed, MrsHaseeb

I think one of the dangers in this is that some people will see going to Hell as "not that bad" if they just have to suffer for a certain time and then be annihilated. Certainly those in Hell wish for annihilation in comparison to enduring Hell forever.


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## Galadriel (Mar 27, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> Yes, I would agree. I totally reject, based on my own studies. Eternal Damnation.  Completely totally without hesitation reject as well as any teachings that come out of the Catholic Faith.  Any and all. That being said doesn't mean I don't respect Catholic's, I do not harbor any animosity towards those of the catholic faith, If it wasn't for the kindest of the Nuns I would not have finished high school or received some of the help that I needed at the times in which they were desperately sought. I grew up Baptist and Methodist and I reject those teachings as well,



I have family members who are Methodist  My grandmother is SDA.




blazingthru said:


> some of it I Kept because most faiths have some of the truth but not all. Yes that is correct Hell is not Eternal and the people, because body and soul is one thing, not separate things, without the breath of life your just a body. with the breath of life you are body and soul. (not a spirit) Nope


. 

Our physical body and our soul are connected while we are alive, but death separates the soul and body--they are two separate things.


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## MrsHaseeb (Mar 27, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> Agreed, MrsHaseeb
> 
> I think one of the dangers in this is that some people will see going to Hell as "not that bad" if they just have to suffer for a certain time and then be annihilated. Certainly those in Hell wish for annihilation in comparison to enduring Hell forever.



Amen. I just want to be on the right side of this. God is to be feared. People seem to really believe that a "loving God" will not send someone to hell for forever ... All I can say is I need his mercy and grace now to purify me as Christ was pure because it will be a sad thing to die and find out you'll be in a lake burning with fire and brimstone for eternity. 
 2 Peter 1:10-11 KJV
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: [11] For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


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## AtlantaJJ (Mar 27, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> Amen. *I just want to be on the right side of this*. God is to be feared. People seem to really believe that a "loving God" will not send someone to hell for forever ... All I can say is I need his mercy and grace now to purify me as Christ was pure because it will be a sad thing to die and find out you'll be in a lake burning with fire and brimstone for eternity.
> 2 Peter 1:10-11 KJV
> Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: [11] For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.



Thank you for posting this, I just re-read 2 Peter 1 - It is so powerful, and it's the answer for everyone who desires to be on the right side! 

My love and appreciation for my Lord Jesus' mighty work increases by the day, the more I read and study the Word, it's incredible!


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## MrsHaseeb (Mar 27, 2013)

AtlantaJJ said:


> Thank you for posting this, I just re-read 2 Peter 1 - It is so powerful, and it's the answer for everyone who desires to be on the right side!
> 
> My love and appreciation for my Lord Jesus' mighty work increases by the day, the more I read and study the Word, it's incredible!



I think all saints of God have a deeper appreciation for God's Word and want to study more, especially after the Bible series aired, lol.


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## Shimmie (Mar 27, 2013)

I'm still catching up on this thread topic which is phenonminal.  

In the meantime, I am 'thanking' (via the thanks buttons) everyone for coming in to share in sweetvi 's thread.    I think it's very special and loving of each of you.  

If I've missed any 'thanks' buttons, I'll go back and correct it.   

Just wanted to share love and appreciation to each of you for being in here.  

That's all.  

:blowkiss:


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## Galadriel (Mar 27, 2013)

AtlantaJJ said:


> My love and appreciation for my Lord Jesus' mighty work increases by the day, the more I read and study the Word, it's incredible!



Agreed!


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## sweetvi (Mar 27, 2013)

Thanks everyone!


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 27, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> And my disagreement lies with the particular doctrines that reject the immortality of the soul and a non-eternal Hell, and not with @blazingthru personally.
> 
> Jehovah's Witnesses for example, on the claim they are using Scripture to interpret Scripture, reject the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus.
> 
> ...





blazingthru said:


> Yes, I would agree. I totally reject, based on my own studies. Eternal Damnation.  Completely totally without hesitation reject as well as any teachings that come out of the Catholic Faith.  Any and all. That being said doesn't mean I don't respect Catholic's, I do not harbor any animosity towards those of the catholic faith, If it wasn't for the kindest of the Nuns I would not have finished high school or received some of the help that I needed at the times in which they were desperately sought. I grew up Baptist and Methodist and I reject those teachings as well, some of it I Kept because most faiths have some of the truth but not all. Yes that is correct Hell is not Eternal and the people, because body and soul is one thing, not separate things, without the breath of life your just a body. with the breath of life you are body and soul. (not a spirit) Nope. Those people who are lost with the fallen Angels and Satan will all perish in the lake of fire and will no longer have a part in the new life evermore.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, blazing...please expound on this.  I have never heard of this in my life as a believer and minister of the gospel.  

Thanks in advance.


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## Poohbear (Mar 27, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> Are we then to understand that God's kindgom is not everlasting (_aionion_)? That it somehow ends in duration as is being suggested? Will our existence in Heaven end or be temporary since eternal life is spoken of, using the Greek _aionion_?


This is the question that came to my mind after reading those websites.  I started thinking how can they say Hell isn't eternal and Heaven is eternal?


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## Laela (Mar 27, 2013)

If we know and believe for good, there is bad;  up, there is down; in, there is out; dry, there  is wet; cold there is hot....then certainly if heaven is eternal, so is hell.... or am I reaching?


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 27, 2013)

Laela said:


> If we know and believe for good, there is bad;  up, there is down; in, there is out; dry, there  is wet; cold there is hot....then certainly if heaven is eternal, so is hell.... *or am I reaching*?


Nope...


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## Galadriel (Mar 27, 2013)

Laela said:


> If we know and believe for good, there is bad;  up, there is down; in, there is out; dry, there  is wet; cold there is hot....then certainly if heaven is eternal, so is hell.... or am I reaching?



I think the principle here is that God has not and will not undo our existence (physical death is just the separation of soul and body, not the end of our existence). If existence continues for the saints in Heaven, then existence clearly continues for the damned--in Hell.

Heaven is populated right now by the holy angels and the saints. Hell is populated by the apostate angels (demons) and the damned.

Remember what Hebrews 9:27 says, "It is appointed for men to die once, and then comes the judgment."

We will all have our own particular judgment at the moment of our death. The General Judgment is when Christ returns to publicly judge the living and the dead.


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## blazingthru (Mar 28, 2013)

Nice & Wavy said:


> I'm sorry, blazing...please expound on this.  I have never heard of this in my life as a believer and minister of the gospel.
> 
> Thanks in advance.





Luke 16:19-31 _Series of five parables: the lost coin, the lost sheep, the lost son, unjust steward, rich man and Lazarus_.  - 
Abraham's bosom would need to be quite large to fit men into it - 
Dip of the finger, one drop of water will not be enough to cool him - Conversations between heaven and hell - how blissful could heaven be if you could hear the cries of the lost from hell?  -Who is He speaking to? vs 14 The Pharisees, lovers of money. They believed that if you were rich you were blessed by God and if you were poor you were cursed. They always prided themselves on being “related” to Abraham - John 8:39,44 -In the parable the rich man goes to hell and the poor beggar goes to heaven. -The rich man addresses Abraham as “Father Abraham” just like the pharisees called Abraham father in John 8:39.  -The *rich man represents the pharisees*. Jesus is challenging their thinking about money.  -*The beggar represents the gentiles* (Matthew 15:21-27) beggars eating crumbs.   - Matthew 21:31 even the tax collectors and harlots will enter the Kingdom before you.  -What was Jesus trying to teach in this parable? -The importance of witnessing.* Israel failed to warn the gentile world and they were guilty of their death. *You only have one life to live. 

Hell is the grave, The Grave. The entire theory of souls burning forever comes from a parable and if you can't accept that it’s a parable, well it will be very difficult to understand that Hell is the grave.  But the fact of the matter is that, that is what hell is a Grave

*2 Peter 3:10 (KJV 1900)*

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

That being said, let’s go to Jeremiah where he talks about the condition of the earth  after Jesus has come and removed all the saints, which is called the First Resurrection.  There are TWO. Of course this is where people get confused, they think this is the time where they have a second chance, but nowhere in scripture is that found. 

As you read below, the earth is now back to where it was originally, void, dark, abyss. No light, no human. Because they died at the coming of the lord.  Those beings that died were the lost. The rest of the dead that were lost remains in their graves and now the earth is a Grave. Because the only thing that is still here is the dead lost. 

Jeremiah 4:23–26 
23 	I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; And the heavens, and they had no light. 24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, And all the hills moved lightly. 25 	I beheld, and, lo, there was no man,

Isaiah 24:1 
Behold, the Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, And turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.

Isaiah 24:3

The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: For the Lord hath spoken this word.

 Isaiah 11:4. With the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.  

 2 Thessalonians 1:7, 8.  When the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God.

 Psalms 68:2. Let the wicked perish at the presence of God

 Revelation 20:5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

Jeremiah 25:33 
33 	And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: They shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; They shall be dung upon the ground.

Jeremiah 4:25 
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens were fled.

Luke 17:37 speaks of the bodies of the wicked and mentions the vultures gathered around them Revelation 19:17, 18 The wicked who are left behind at Christ's coming are left dead.

 there is no suggestion in the texts that the "soul" is cast in at one time and the "body" at another. The immortal-soul doctrine, by defining "soul" as the real man and the body as but a fleshly prison house, really asks us to believe that the real man goes immediately at death to hellfire, and then at some distant future date God raises the body, which has turned to dust, and consigns it to the fires. We avoid such an irrational and un-Scriptural conclusion by understanding the phrase "soul and body" to mean the whole person, viewed physically and mentally in his entirety, “the whole body." But when are persons cast bodily into the judgment fires? At the last great judgment day, when the wicked dead who have been raised, and who have been judged guilty, are "cast into the lake of fire." (See Rev. 20:11-15.)
The word for "bottomless pit" in the original Greek is "abussos," or abyss. That same word is used in the Greek version of the Old Testament in Genesis 1:2 in connection with the creation of the earth, but there it is translated "deep." "The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.   The words "deep," "bottomless pit," and "abyss" here refer to the same thing--the earth in its totally dark, disorganized form before God made order of it. Jeremiah, in describing this earth during the 1,000 years, used virtually the same terms as these in Genesis 1:2: "without form and void," "no light," "no man," 'black." Jeremiah 4:23, 25, 28. So the battered, dark earth with no people alive will be called the bottomless pit, or abyss, during the 1,000 years just as it was in the beginning before Creation was completed. Isaiah 24:22 also speaks of Satan and his angels during the 1,000 years as "gathered in the pit" and "shut up in the prison."
So while the saints are in heaven reviewing the books, Judgment is being made over the lost.  The saints will remain in heaven for 1,000.00 years.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV 1900)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: 

1 Corinthians 6:2 (KJV 1900)
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
The new Jerusalem comes down to rest on the earth which is now flatten and is a plain. The dead lost are now awake, those who have lived since the beginning of the creation of the earth. All men that were not saved are now awaken. 

Revelation 21:2 (KJV 1900)
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

 Zechariah 14:4 (KJV 1900)
4 	And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, Which is before Jerusalem on the east, And the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, And there shall be a very great valley; And half of the mountain ... The new Jerusalem will settle where the mount of Olives now stands. The mountain will be flattened to make a great plain, upon which the city will come to rest.

Revelation 20:5 
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.  This is the resurrection of the damn.

Revelation 20:7–9 
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city.
"Fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 Revelation 20:10 (KJV 1900)
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.... Which just means until it is now ash.

Malachi 4:3 
3 	And ye shall tread down the wicked; For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet In the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

Isaiah 65:17 (KJV 1900)
17 	For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: And the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isaiah 47:14 (KJV 1900)
14 	Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; They shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: There shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.

Revelation 21:1 (KJV 1900)
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 Peter 3:13 (KJV 1900)
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:3 (KJV 1900)
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Revelation 21:4 (KJV 1900)
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. Here the scripture says the former things are passed away.


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## blazingthru (Mar 28, 2013)

*Death, Not Eternal Torment*
The Bible tells us that "the wages of sin is" not eternal life in hellfire, but "death" (Romans 6:23), the same penalty God assured Adam and Eve would be theirs if they ate the forbidden fruit.

Ezekiel states clearly that "the soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4), and a plethora of other Bible verses and passages endorse this position. The prophet Malachi wrote that sinners would burn up as "stubble" and would become "ashes under the soles" of the feet of the redeemed (Malachi 4:1, 3). Even the final fate of Satan is explicitly pronounced in Ezekiel 28:18, where the Bible says that the enemy of souls will be reduced to ashes upon the "earth." Compare that with Psalm 37:10 ("For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be"), Psalm 68:2 ("as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God"), and other similar verses. Soon you get a clear picture that the purpose of the fires of hell is to eradicate sin and to expunge the universe of its awful presence.

Interestingly, it was the devil who was first to suggest that sinners would not die (Genesis 3:4). A hell where sinners never perish would prove the devil right and would make God, who told Eve she would "surely die" as a result of transgression (Genesis 2:17), a liar.


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 28, 2013)

You know what...nevermind.  

Thanks for thanking my post, Laela...I've decided to remove it for a good reason!


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (Mar 28, 2013)

Oh wow.......


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## sweetvi (Mar 28, 2013)

I must of missed something that was deleted, but I hope this thread can continue and did not intend for any conflicts!


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## blazingthru (Mar 29, 2013)

Laela said:


> Hiya sweetvi,  Jesus' death, descension to hell, resurrection and ascension to the Father, serves as the guide.  I believe both to be eternal states for man after death because that's what the Bible says.
> 
> _"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
> Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels ..."_  -*Matt 25: 40-41*
> ...



I just want to mentioned that Jesus did not go to "Paradise" he went into the grave, He Died. He lay in the earth for three days. Actually Jews note that anytime in a day is consider a full day. Nonetheless, he laid in the grave and was awaken and went out among the people, he was here what forty days before he ascended to heaven? Yes forty days. So obviously, he could not have meant today, this day! he meant this is a promise to you, that I make today.
Where is paradise
*Revelation 2:7*
King James Version (KJV)
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. 
*Revelation 22:1-2*
King James Version (KJV)
22 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Then we see Jesus talking with Mary, who wanted to hug him and cling to him. 
*John 20:17 (KJV 1900)*
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, 

Better yet, what does the thief say, He totally understood what Jesus was saying. He said Remember me.


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## dicapr (Mar 29, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> Agreed, MrsHaseeb
> 
> I think one of the dangers in this is that some people will see going to Hell as "not that bad" if they just have to suffer for a certain time and then be annihilated. Certainly those in Hell wish for annihilation in comparison to enduring Hell forever.



I think this is why the concept of eternal hell is held on to so tightly-for the fear factor of it. Eternal punishment seems much more prohibitive  then eternal death. But I must say that eternal death highlights the finality and mercy of God at the end of this age. As long as there is eternal punishment the reign of sin and its consequences will be before us. How can paradise be enjoyed along side eternal torment?How can God move forward from the reign of sin if forever if his wayward creations cries of torment are ever before him. To me eternal death is about the finality of this chapter in earths history. God promises death in the garden on Eden. Death denotes a finality that eternal punishment does not. Besides, those of us who love God with our whole heart and mind should find the idea of being separated from our Lord and Savior enough of a deterrent. God doesn't was our devotion out of fear.


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## Galadriel (Mar 29, 2013)

dicapr said:


> I think this is why the concept of eternal hell is held on to so tightly-for the fear factor of it. Eternal punishment seems much more prohibitive  then eternal death. But I must say that eternal death highlights the finality and mercy of God at the end of this age. As long as there is eternal punishment the reign of sin and its consequences will be before us. How can paradise be enjoyed along side eternal torment?How can God move forward from the reign of sin if forever if his wayward creations cries of torment are ever before him. To me eternal death is about the finality of this chapter in earths history. God promises death in the garden on Eden. Death denotes a finality that eternal punishment does not. Besides, those of us who love God with our whole heart and mind should find the idea of being separated from our Lord and Savior enough of a deterrent. God doesn't was our devotion out of fear.



I think the Apostolic Fathers (the Overseers who worked with the Apostles and knew them personally) are a great start because their writings show what the Apostles handed down to Christians on this matter  Other heavyweights of course are Saint Augustine, Saint Thomas Aquinas, who are among the greatest Christian scholars & theologians to have ever lived.

If you do a historical survey of the belief of a non-eternal Hell, you'll find that early heretical sects (Gnostics) taught this, and it disappeared until the 19th/20th Century with Seventh Day Adventists, etc. Eastern Orthodox, Protestant, and Catholic Christians have unanimously held to the dogma that Hell is eternal.

While it certainly is terrible to contemplate an eternity in Hell, what should motivate our service to God is love. God Himself became flesh and died for our sins (and how poignant to say this on Good Friday, no less!). God is also very willing to give us the grace we need to grow closer to Him.

I am a Christian not because I'm afraid of Hell, but because I want to know how to live, I want to know Truth, I want to know God, and I want to fulfill my purpose of loving Him and spending a happy eternity with Him. Anyone in Hell is there because he or she rejected God and died unrepentant.

Does it suck to go to Hell for eternity? You bet.

Which is exactly why God wills that we be saved, and gave us Jesus Christ as the Way.

But we must cooperate. We can't be ushered through the gates of Heaven against our will.

And we certainly can't enter the presence of the Holy One in a state of rebellion.


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## MrsHaseeb (Mar 29, 2013)

Matthew 25:40-41 KJV
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. [41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

I don't know if this Scripture has been posted, but the word here for everlasting literally means without beginning and without end... The point is, everlasting fire was not prepared for man, but for the devil and his angels. So those manipulated by the devil end up there with Him. It says what it says, there is no need to come up with all these interpretations about why hell is not eternal. Lets focus on being in Christ Jesus and being a light to others so that we and those who will can be saved from God's wrath.


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## MrsHaseeb (Mar 29, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> While it certainly is terrible to contemplate an eternity in Hell, what should motivate our service to God is love. God Himself became flesh and died for our sins (and how poignant to say this on Good Friday, no less!). God is also very willing to give us the grace we need to grow closer to Him.
> 
> I am a Christian not because I'm afraid of Hell, but because I want to know how to live, I want to know Truth, I want to know God, and I want to fulfill my purpose of loving Him and spending a happy eternity with Him. Anyone in Hell is there because he or she rejected God and died unrepentant.
> 
> ...



Girl... Just tell the truth...

When I was crying out and repenting to God to restore my pitiful backslidden self over a year ago it wasn't because of hell. I just knew I needed Him.


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## MrsHaseeb (Mar 29, 2013)

Matthew 8:28-29 KJV
And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. [29] And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

I don't know if this has been posted either, but we have to remember that the devil is an angelic being (although evil) so a burning earth would have no effect on him. Based on these verses, devils believe that there is a time coming where they will be tormented.

I suppose I need to read through the thread.


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## dicapr (Mar 29, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> I think the Apostolic Fathers (the Overseers who worked with the Apostles and knew them personally) are a great start because their writings show what the Apostles handed down to Christians on this matter  Other heavyweights of course are Saint Augustine, Saint Thomas Aquinas, who are among the greatest Christian scholars & theologians to have ever lived.
> 
> If you do a historical survey of the belief of a non-eternal Hell, you'll find that early heretical sects (Gnostics) taught this, and it disappeared until the 19th/20th Century with Seventh Day Adventists, etc. Eastern Orthodox, Protestant, and Catholic Christians have unanimously held to the dogma that Hell is eternal.
> 
> ...



I can understand why many feel from the bible that he'll is eternal. It wasn't until I was shown in the bible how the expression forever is used several places that best translates until completion that I was able to see hell as finite. For me the most convincing argument is that God promised death as the wage of sin and not an eternity of punishment. One of the statements isn't true. While hell can be debates on theological study the bible clearly states that wages of sin is death. Truthfully, it is one of those theological points that will only be proven without a doubt when Jesus returns. So long as we make it to heaven what happens to the wicked wont concern us anyway.


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## Galadriel (Mar 29, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> Lets focus on being in Christ Jesus and being a light to others so that we and those who will can be saved from God's wrath.



Well said MrsHaseeb


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## blazingthru (Mar 30, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> Matthew 8:28-29 KJV
> And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. [29] And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
> 
> I don't know if this has been posted either, but we have to remember that the devil is an angelic being (although evil) so a burning earth would have no effect on him. Based on these verses, devils believe that there is a time coming where they will be tormented.
> ...



But the word of God says the fire will begin inside of the devil, he will burn inside outward.  God is the creator and he can destroy the devil with fire. The devil is not Eternal. He is not all powerful and all knowing. He was a servant of God. He can be destroyed as will the demons or fallen angels. They tremble at their punishment.  Do not think that they are not afraid they are very afraid.  The Devil has known from the garden of Eden or dare I say the outskirts of Eden that his head will be bruised,  He knew then that his time is short. His greatest pleasure is how many humans can he take with him. 

*Ezekiel 28:16-19* (New American Standard Bible)
16 “By the abundance of your trade
[a]You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O *covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become [c]terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

Malachi 4:1 (KJV 1900)
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; And all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: And the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, That it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Malachi 4:3 (KJV 1900)
3 	And ye shall tread down the wicked; For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet In the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.*


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## divya (Apr 4, 2013)

Wonderful thread.  Understanding the truth about hell reveals much about the character of God. God loves His creations so much that we are given the opportunity to choose or reject eternity with Him.

 Even if we reject Him, He will not make us suffer endlessly. The verse puts it simply and clearly. 

Romans 3:23 _For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord._

Additionally, the Scriptures do teach us that we are not immortal. _The soul that sinneth, it shall die."_ Ezekiel 18:20

Only when Christ returns to raise the dead in Him and those living in Him, will believers and only believers be given immortality.

I Cor. 5:51-55

_51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

*53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.*

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?_


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## blazingthru (Apr 5, 2013)

“To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” Isaiah 8:20. The people of God are directed to the Scriptures as their safeguard against the influence of false teachers and the delusive power of spirits of darkness. Satan employs every possible device to prevent men from obtaining a knowledge of the Bible; for its plain utterances reveal his deceptions. At every revival of God’s work the prince of evil is aroused to more intense activity; he is now putting forth his utmost efforts for a final struggle against Christ and His followers. The last great delusion is soon to open before us. Antichrist is to perform his marvelous works in our sight. So closely will the counterfeit resemble the true that it will be impossible to distinguish between them except by the Holy Scriptures. By their testimony every statement and every miracle must be tested.
Those who endeavor to obey all the commandments of God will be opposed and derided. They can stand only in God. In order to endure the trial before them, they must understand the will of God as revealed in His word; they can honor Him only as they have a right conception of His character, government, and purposes, and act in accordance with them. None but those who have fortified the mind with the truths of the Bible will stand through the last great conflict. To every soul will come the searching test: *Shall I obey God rather than men*? The decisive hour is even now at hand. Are our feet planted on the rock of God’s immutable word? Are we prepared to stand firm in defense of the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus?
Before His crucifixion the Saviour explained to His disciples that He was to be put to death and to rise again from the tomb, and angels were present to impress His words on minds and hearts. But the disciples were looking for temporal deliverance from the Roman yoke, and they could not tolerate the thought that He in whom all their hopes centered should suffer an ignominious death. The words which they needed to remember were banished from their minds; and when the time of trial came, it found them unprepared. The death of Jesus as fully destroyed their hopes as if He had not forewarned them. So in the prophecies the future is opened before us as plainly as it was opened to the disciples by the words of Christ. The events connected with the close of probation and the work of preparation for the time of trouble, are clearly presented. But multitudes have no more understanding of these important truths than if they had never been revealed. Satan watches to catch away every impression that would make them wise unto salvation, and the time of trouble will find them unready.
When God sends to men warnings so important that they are represented as proclaimed by holy angels flying in the midst of heaven, He requires every person endowed with reasoning powers to heed the message. The fearful judgments denounced against the worship of the beast and his image (Revelation 14:9-11), should lead all to a diligent study of the prophecies to learn what the mark of the beast is, and how they are to avoid receiving it. But the masses of the people turn away their ears from hearing the truth and are turned unto fables. The apostle Paul declared, looking down to the last days: “The time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine.” 2 Timothy 4:3. That time has fully come. The multitudes do not want Bible truth, because it interferes with the desires of the sinful, world-loving heart; and Satan supplies the deceptions which they love.
But God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines and the basis of all reforms. The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the creeds or decisions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the voice of the majority—not one nor all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain “Thus saith the Lord” in its support.  Satan is constantly endeavoring to attract attention to man in the place of God. He leads the people to look to bishops, to pastors, to professors of theology, as their guides, instead of searching the Scriptures to learn their duty for themselves. Then, by controlling the minds of these leaders, he can influence the multitudes according to his will.


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## blazingthru (Apr 19, 2013)

Nice & Wavy said:


> I agree 100% with the bolded quote.  I also agree with the highlight in blue.  This happens a lot with many different denominations



Thank God.


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## Nice & Wavy (Apr 20, 2013)

blazingthru said:


> Thank God.


Thank God that the TRUTH prevails. We must always learn to seek peace and pursue it.


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## divya (Apr 22, 2013)

Just in case this hasn't been posted in this thread...

www.helltruth.com


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## blazingthru (Apr 24, 2013)

I want to mention some things that have been posted that are not what the bible is teaching we always have to use scripture to explain scripture. 

The body and the soul being separate, they are not they are one and the same. but let the scriptures speak for themselves. 
Read:  Search.. 

*Genesis 2:7*
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man *became* a living soul.

*1 Corinthians 15:45*
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

*Revelation 16:3*
And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

*Ezekiel 18:20*
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.  if the soul was naturally immortal it could never die. But God says Himself, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." So on the authority of God's Word, souls do die.
Jesus, the great Master Teacher, declared that the soul could die, in Matthew 10:28. “And fear not them which kill the body ... but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” By this clear statement, Christ places the matter beyond all question. The soul can die and will die in the fires of hell. Therefore, it cannot be immortal by nature. 

The Spirit that returns to God when a man dies is the breath of life.  The breath (AIR) or spirit of every person who dies whether he's evil or good, returns to God.

*Psalm 104:29 *(KJV 1900)
29 	Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: Thou takest away their breath, they die, And return to their dust.

*Luke 23:46 *(KJV 1900)
46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

*Luke 8:49-56*
King James Version (KJV)
49 While he yet spake, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's house, saying to him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master.

50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.

51 And when he came into the house, he suffered no man to go in, save Peter, and James, and John, and the father and the mother of the maiden.

52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.

53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.

54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.

55 *And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway:* and he commanded to give her meat.

56 And her parents were astonished: but he charged them that they should tell no man what was done.

When she died a few hours before or maybe even a few moments, her spirit, the Bible says, returned to God who gave it, her breath, in other words. Now when Christ came and called her back to life, her breath came forth again when the hand of God touched that body and she got up and walked out.

This belief of the soul never dying comes from Satan he said in Gen 3:4 

*Genesis 3:4*
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

*Revelation 12:9*
King James Version (KJV)
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, *which deceiveth the whole world*: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.  

At death the soul ceases to exist until the combination is made again and the breath of life is put into that body once more in the resurrection. And then the individual will be resurrected and there will be life. Anything that has a body + breath is a soul. That applies to animals, fish, birds, anything that has a body and is alive. You need a body and the breath of life to become a living soul.
*1 Timothy 1:17*
King James Version (KJV)
17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

I want to discuss the *souls under the altar. 
*
*Genesis 4:10*
King James Version (KJV)
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.  

*Job 14:12-18*

12 So man lieth down and riseth not: Till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, Nor be roused out of their sleep.

13 Oh that thou wouldest hide me in Sheol, That thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, That thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and *remember me*!

14 If a man die, shall he live again? All the days of my warfare would I wait, Till my release should come.


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## blazingthru (Apr 27, 2013)

The souls under the Altar is symbolic. There are no actual souls crying under the altar nor is the altar in heaven.  Those Maryts that died during the Church prosecuting power are those that are waiting to be avenged. They are dead in their graves. 

Revelation 6:9-11
King James Version (KJV)
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and *avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?* Key here is avenge their blood as Abel's blood cried out in Gen 4:3-4.  Abel's blood does not literally cry out, but he was righteous and killed for being righteous by someone who was not righteous. What was wrong with Cain's sacrifice?  without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. he was disobedient. 

*1 John 3:12*
King James Version (KJV)
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Hebrews 11:4

King James Version (KJV)
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Leviticus 4:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 And the priest shall put some of the blood upon the horns of the altar of sweet incense before the Lord, which is in the tabernacle of the congregation; and shall pour all the blood of the bullock at the *bottom of the altar* of the burnt offering, which is at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

This blood represents the sacrifice of Jesus. The souls under the altar are the blood of the righteous that have been spilled by the unrighteous and that crys out for avengence, but its not literal its symbolic. But note that God gives them a white robe and tells them to wait a little while. These individuals are still in the grave awaiting for the next group that are to be marytered for the same reason by the very same church. God does not actually speak to them. They were killed and remain in their graves. 

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, *until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled*.

Daniel 7:25
King James Version (KJV)
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
This fourth Beast has changed the time and the laws, he spoke great blasphemy against God and heaven, and the saints were persecuted for 1,260 years. A time and times and the dividing of times is 3.5.  

Revelation 13
King James Version (KJV)

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.  which is 1,260 years. 

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 *And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:* and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

These saints are those who were killed during the Dark Ages, Middle Ages or the Church age. This Church was a persecuting power. through the state.

this same church or Beast received the deadly wound and was killed.
Revelation 13:10-18
King James Version (KJV)
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. This beast who lead those into captivity was lead into captivity and was given a deadly wound.

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.  

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. This is a prophecy that is soon to take place. the wound has healed and this second beast will exercise the power from the first Beast. 

This Beast had no more power, not ruling power over the states any longer. Here is the statue of Nebuchadnezzars dream. The legs are made of Iron, Rome was the ruling power in that age and that age was the dark ages. As you can see, Rome is still mixed in with the clay its has not lost all power.  The word says to wait a little while.  This Beast will rise to power again and prosecute the saints as before. This is the second group that will by martys for Christ and then Jesus will come. not that this is just a group of Maryts this group is as significant as the first group. 

Revelation 14:13-20
King James Version (KJV)
13 *And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.*

Lets continue to speak about this Beast, who sits on seven hills. 

Romans 13
King James Version (KJV)
13 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Revelation 2:20-23
King James Version (KJV)
20 *Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee,* because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your work. 

who is Jezebel 

Jezebel killed the prophets of the Lord. she was an evil tyrant and she killed to get whatever she wanted. She worshiped Baal, a Idol and created being. She forced Israel to worship Baal.

2 Kings 9:22-37
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
22 When [a]Joram saw Jehu, he said, “Is it peace, Jehu?” And he *answered, “What peace, so long as the harlotries of your mother Jezebel and her witchcrafts are so many?”*


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## blazingthru (Apr 27, 2013)

Revelation 17
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Doom of Babylon

17 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, 2 with whom the kings of the earth committed acts of immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality.” 3 And he carried me away [a]in the Spirit into a wilderness; and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and *adorned with gold and precious [c]stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality, 5 and on her forehead a name was written, a mystery, “BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.” 6 And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the [d]saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered [e]greatly. 7 And the angel said to me, “Why [f]do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.


8 “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and [g]go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come. 9 Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, 10 and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while. 11 The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction. 12 The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour. 13 These have one [h]purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast.
Revelation 16:4-21
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
4 Then the third angel poured out his bowl into the rivers and the springs of waters; and they became blood. 5 And I heard the angel of the waters saying, “Righteous are You, who are and who were, O Holy One, because You judged these things; 6 for they poured out the blood of saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink. They [a]deserve it.” 7 And I heard the altar saying, “Yes, O Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments.”

So we now know that this Beast is the Church, a political Church, a Woman in the bible or She is usually refer to as the Church. this is a persecuting Church that has persecuted the saints. the Martyrs blood cried out because they were righteous and their blood needs to be avenged, of course this again is symbolic. in terms of crying out, but not in that it will not happen Revelations 19: 1-2 tells us that yes they were avenged.
Revelation 19:1-2
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Fourfold Hallelujah

19 After these things I heard something like a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying,

“Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God; 2 because His judgments are true and righteous; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and He has avenged the blood of His bond-servants [a]on her.” 

This all comes from the saints under the altar, Its not just a simple statement its very important because that one passage leads us to know it will happen again, by the same church. It warns us as to who is going to do it, when it will start and how it will start and all the evidence is being seen every single day, but most people are totally blind to it. Also to add that Altar is not in heaven, this altar is in the court and the court is the earth. There is life in the blood and this life cries out for judgment in its favor. Symbolic. Yet God does require us not to eat the blood in the meat because it has the life in the blood.
Leviticus 17:14
1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
14 For the life of all flesh is his blood, it is joined with his life: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no [a]flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it, shall be cut off.  Are we not now Spiritual Jews and  grafted into the tree. 

Revelation 6  does not confirm that saints are in heaven asking for God to avenge them. When we compare scripture we see that Abel's blood cried out the same as the saints under the altar. I also wanted to mention the white robes.

1 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The white robes are the righteousness of Jesus, Matthew 22:11-13. These saints died praising the lord, to all it appears that they lost but they won.*


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## blazingthru (Apr 27, 2013)

Christ, through the Holy Spirit, preached to spirits who were in prison.  You and I are spirits, and if we’re not saved we’re imprisoned by the devil, just like Peter was imprisoned and the angel came to set him free. 

*Isaiah 61:1 (KJV 1900)*
61	 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; Because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; He hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives, And the opening of the prison to them that are bound.

It has been preached that Jesus actually descended into the lower regions of the earth and preached to lost souls that were in prison in some purgatory or limbo. This doctrine has been somehow extracted from *1 Peter 3:18-20*. Let's read it and see what it really teaches. "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison: which sometimes were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved."

Let's look at it closely now and get the real message of these verses. It says, "Christ hath once suffered for sin that He might bring us to God being put to death in the flesh. But quickened by the Spirit by which also He went and preached..." First of all notice how Christ preached to those spirits in prison. He did it by the Spirit, and that word is capitalized in your Bible. It actually refers to the Holy Spirit. So whatever Christ did in preaching during this period of time, He did it through or by the Holy Spirit.

With that in view, let's ask this, "When was the preaching done?" The answer is plainly given in verse 20: "when once the longsuffering God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing." So the preaching was actually done while the ark was being built, during the preaching of Noah to that antediluvian world. Now, one more question: "To whom was the preaching done?" The text says here "to the spirits in prison." 

Throughout the Bible we find this terminology used in describing those who are bound in the prison house of sin. David prayed "Bring my soul out of prison." Psalms 142:7. Paul spoke of his experience in these words, "bringing me into captivity to the law of sin." What Peter is telling us here is simply that Christ through the Holy Spirit was present while Noah preached; Christ was there through the Holy Spirit to speak conviction to their hearts and appeal to them to come into the ark. There is absolutely nothing here which indicated that Jesus departed from the body during the time He was dead to go to any subterranean place to minister to wicked spirits. The three questions are clearly answered in the text itself, that He preached by the Holy Spirit, He did it while the ark was preparing, and He did it to the spirits in prison or to those individuals whose sinful lives were bound in the prison house of sin. The truth is that Jesus had died and He was in the grave for those three days.

Where was Jesus for the three days between His death and resurrection?
When you understand the context of the 1 Peter 3:18, this answer becomes clear:

“For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, (the subject of this reference is the Spirit) by whom (in other words, through the Spirit) He went and preached to the spirits in prison who formerly were disobedient, once in the days of longsuffering they waited in the time of Noah while the ark was being prepared” (1 Peter 3:18.)

Some believe this means that when Jesus died on the cross, He didn’t really die. Rather, He altered His physical state into a spirit, then went down into hell, and preached to the people who lived before the flood that they might have a second chance. This is a very bizarre interpretation.

Isaiah 61:1 indicates that part of the ministry of Christ would be to “proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound.” This text in 1 Peter is simply saying similarly that Christ, through the Holy Spirit, preached to people in Noah’s time who were imprisoned by evil spirits. 

You are either filled with God’s spirit, obeying Him, and having His angels guiding and directing us, or if not saved, you are imprisoned by the devil, disobeying God, and are filled with the devil’s spirits. Jesus, through the Holy Spirit, used Noah’s preaching at that time to give the “captives” an opportunity to be set free. 

It is interesting that Peter himself was literally imprisoned and an angel, one of God’s ministering spirits, came to set him free. Peter had a literal experience of the spiritual things he was here writing about.

The major part of the work of Christ was to try to save people, even during the time of Noah, through the same Spirit; He tried to save those people whose spirits were imprisoned by the devil. Peter is not talking about how their ghosts were in hell, chained up, or anything of that nature.

The false doctrine that is a result of the twisting of the meaning of 1 Peter 3:18 is devastating in that it teaches that there is a second chance. The Bible says, “It’s appointed unto man once to die and after that the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27). No, you can’t die and then while in hell hope that Jesus come preach to you.


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## divya (Oct 4, 2013)

Remembered this thread during the discussion about Rob Bell.  My heart goes out to him as he is coming to a different understanding of hell than what is generally believed within Christianity. Maybe when he has truly understood the finite nature of hell, he can understand that those who have chosen to live in sin (including the homosexual lifestyle that he has chosen to defend) on this earth will not be tormented to no end. God is just, fair. He has been, is and will always be - LOVE.


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