# The Official Catholic Thread



## Galadriel

I don't know if we'll get a sub-forum or not, but it shouldn't stop us from exploring and discussing our faith .

I have benefited over the years from knowledgeable and insightful Christians who not only talked the talked, but also walked the walk. For that, I am truly thankful.

Sometimes we Catholic Christians have questions about our faith, or seek a more in-depth study or certain beliefs we hold. Maybe we can use this thread as our little Q&A thread.

So how about it?


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## Shimmie

I expect everyone to respect our Catholic sisters in this thread.  No derailing.


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## diadall

I was raised Catholic but I attend a Baptist church now. I will check out this thread from time to time.


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## auparavant

Something where prayer requests and questions can be answered directly without having to defend the faith would be welcomed.  We _are_ all one in Christ but we are not all worshiping at the same temple.  We only need respect.


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## auparavant

Question 1:  Well, I'll start.  I'm wondering about praying the chapelet of divine mercy for a soul with the promise that that person would not perish in the end.  Where is that located in the Diary of Divine Mercy in My Soul of Saint Maria Faustina Kowalska?  Anyone know?  


Question 2: Also, could I call our priest to come over for prayer for my family with the death of a loved one who was not catholic and will not be buried here even?  I've only attended one catholic memorial as I was not raised catholic.  

I thank you in advance for your responses.


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## Galadriel

auparavant said:


> Question 1:  Well, I'll start.  I'm wondering about praying the chapelet of divine mercy for a soul with the promise that that person would not perish in the end.  Where is that located in the Diary of Divine Mercy in My Soul of Saint Maria Faustina Kowalska?  Anyone know?



I haven't read St. Faustina's diary, but here's a link to the Oblates of Divine Mercy website: http://www.saint-faustina.com/drp/

It contains the background on St. Faustina, the Divine Mercy Devotion, and the related prayers, etc. My husband and I did the Divine Mercy chaplet last year for Lent.



auparavant said:


> Question 2: Also, could I call our priest to come over for prayer for my family with the death of a loved one who was not catholic and will not be buried here even?  I've only attended one catholic memorial as I was not raised catholic.



Yes you can! You can even request a Mass said for that person as well. Another interesting thing is that the Catholic Church will give a funeral and burial for any Christian regardless of denomination (so long as the person/family had or wouldn't have any objections).


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## CoilyFields

Hi ladies!  Not Catholic but I have a question. (Is that ok in this thread?) Can someone explain the concept of papal infallibility?  (Correct me if that's not the right term)


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## Galadriel

CoilyFields said:


> Hi ladies!  Not Catholic but I have a question. (Is that ok in this thread?) Can someone explain the concept of papal infallibility?  (Correct me if that's not the right term)



CoilyFields, of course!

In short, when Christ gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom (Matt. 16:18) and said the Gates of Hell will not prevail, and that Peter has the authority to "bind and loose," Our Lord was giving Peter (the first Pope) the protection of infallibility when teaching on matters of faith and morals in his official capacity as leader of the Church.

Infallbility does not mean the Pope is impeccable (sinless, or without personal fault/flaws). Infallibility is not the same as Inspiration (what the authors of the Bible had). 

Infallibility is ONLY applicable when the Pope is declaring a dogma of the faith "ex-cathedra" or "from the Chair" (The Chair of St. Peter is a religious metaphor to the authority and headship of St. Peter over the Church). Also, ex-cathedra teachings are rooted in and coincides with Scripture and Tradition.

A couple of ex-cathedra teachings that have been declared:



*Jesus Christ is fully human and fully divine (True God and True Man)*. Today we might think, "of course He is! What's the big deal?" However during the time of the early Church, several heresies sprung up like Nestorianism (Christ was divine, and His divinity destroyed or absorbed His human nature) and Arianism (Christ was not divine, but a super-man). The Pope, by formally declaring ex-cathedra that Christ is True God and True Man, upheld with God's assistance, the truth of the two natures of Christ.
*The Immaculate Conception.* The Blessed Virgin Mary, at the moment of her conception, was infused by God's sanctifying grace to prepare her for her role as the Mother of Christ (thus preserving her from the stain of Original Sin).
 
The purpose of infallibility is to not make an individual pope look wise  or holy, but it is God's way of assisting him in leading and guiding  the Church in accordance with His promise in Matt. 16:17-19. Another reason for infallibility is because Christ's Church is indefectible--His Bride will not and cannot lead us astray or teach error.


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## divya

Just wanted to express my support for this thread. I will also be reading to gain a better understanding of the beliefs of Catholic Christians.


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## Keen

auparavant said:


> Question 1:  Well, I'll start.  I'm wondering about praying the chapelet of divine mercy for a soul with the promise that that person would not perish in the end.  Where is that located in the Diary of Divine Mercy in My Soul of Saint Maria Faustina Kowalska?  Anyone know?
> 
> 
> Question 2: Also, could I call our priest to come over for prayer for my family with the death of a loved one who was not catholic and will not be buried here even?  I've only attended one catholic memorial as I was not raised catholic.
> 
> I thank you in advance for your responses.





Galadriel said:


> I haven't read St. Faustina's diary, but here's a link to the Oblates of Divine Mercy website: http://www.saint-faustina.com/drp/
> 
> It contains the background on St. Faustina, the Divine Mercy Devotion, and the related prayers, etc. My husband and I did the Divine Mercy chaplet last year for Lent.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes you can! You can even request a Mass said for that person as well. Another interesting thing is that the Catholic Church will give a funeral and burial for any Christian regardless of denomination (so long as the person/family had or wouldn't have any objections).



Regarding the second one, would the priest come over for prayer though? I know they are required to come if the person is sick even if the person was not Catholic. But If the person already died, would they come to the house prayer (if you don't have a personal relationship with the priest)? They probably won't say no if you ask as long as you work within their scheduled. I'm just not sure if those are one of those required duties.


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## diadall

Keen said:
			
		

> Regarding the second one, would the priest come over for prayer though? I know they are required to come if the person is sick even if the person was not Catholic. But If the person already died, would they come to the house prayer (if you don't have a personal relationship with the priest)? They probably won't say no if you ask as long as you work within their scheduled. I'm just not sure if those are one of those required duties.



I tend to agree with this. If the person is already deceased the priest may come to see the family but only if there is an established relationship.


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## CoilyFields

Galadriel said:


> @CoilyFields, of course!
> 
> In short, when Christ gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom (Matt. 16:18) and said the Gates of Hell will not prevail, and that Peter has the authority to "bind and loose," Our Lord was giving Peter (the first Pope) the protection of infallibility when teaching on matters of faith and morals in his official capacity as leader of the Church.
> 
> Infallbility does not mean the Pope is impeccable (sinless, or without personal fault/flaws). Infallibility is not the same as Inspiration (what the authors of the Bible had).
> 
> Infallibility is ONLY applicable when the Pope is declaring a dogma of the faith "ex-cathedra" or "from the Chair" (The Chair of St. Peter is a religious metaphor to the authority and headship of St. Peter over the Church). Also, ex-cathedra teachings are rooted in and coincides with Scripture and Tradition.
> 
> A couple of ex-cathedra teachings that have been declared:
> 
> 
> 
> *Jesus Christ is fully human and fully divine (True God and True Man)*. Today we might think, "of course He is! What's the big deal?" However during the time of the early Church, several heresies sprung up like Nestorianism (Christ was divine, and His divinity destroyed or absorbed His human nature) and Arianism (Christ was not divine, but a super-man). The Pope, by formally declaring ex-cathedra that Christ is True God and True Man, upheld with God's assistance, the truth of the two natures of Christ.
> *The Immaculate Conception.* The Blessed Virgin Mary, at the moment of her conception, was infused by God's sanctifying grace to prepare her for her role as the Mother of Christ (thus preserving her from the stain of Original Sin).
> The purpose of infallibility is to not make an individual pope look wise or holy, but it is God's way of assisting him in leading and guiding the Church in accordance with His promise in Matt. 16:17-19. Another reason for infallibility is because Christ's Church is indefectible--His Bride will not and cannot lead us astray or teach error.


 
Galadriel , Thanks sis! I get it. One more thing lol...How is the Pope chosen?


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## Galadriel

CoilyFields said:


> @Galadriel , Thanks sis! I get it. One more thing lol...How is the Pope chosen?



Upon the death of a pope, all the cardinals (under the age of 80) gather in conclave (in the Vatican) to vote for the next pope. Whoever gets 2/3 majority of the votes is elected pope (the pope is also the Bishop of Rome).

Technically, any baptized Catholic male can be elected pope, though this would be extremely exceptional, because usually a cardinal from among the college of cardinals is elected pope. This is why people are so excited about our new Cardinal Timothy Dolan of New York, because it puts him in a very good position to be elected pope (though an American has never yet been pope). Personally, I'm rooting for Cardinal Francis Arinze from Nigeria. He is well-loved by many Catholics around the world.

The voting in conclave is done in secrecy, and there is no outside contact (and there should be no outside interference) during this time. Once the pope is elected, he has to first accept the position, and then choose his name (for example, Joseph Ratzinger chose the name Benedict XVI). He then goes to the "Room of Tears," where he dresses in his official vestments as pope and has a brief private time. He is then escorted to the main balcony where he is officially announced to the world, and then he greets everyone present and delivers his Apostolic blessing to the city of Rome, and to the world.


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## fifi134

Galadriel said:


> [B]The Immaculate Conception.[/B] The Blessed Virgin Mary, at the moment of her conception, was infused by God's sanctifying grace to prepare her for her role as the Mother of Christ [B](thus preserving her from the stain of Original Sin)[/B].
> [/LIST
> [/QUOTE]
> 
> Not Catholic but I have a question (not trying to derail at all). How does one reconcile teachings that say Mary was sinless with Scripture in Romans 3:23: [B]"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"[/B]?


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## Galadriel

fifi134 said:


> Not Catholic but I have a question (not trying to derail at all). How does one reconcile teachings that say Mary was sinless with Scripture in Romans 3:23: *"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"*?



*
*

 The Immaculate  Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the  normal way (a human mother and father), was by God's grace (and in light of Christ's merits) preserved from the stain of Original Sin. 



The essence of original sin consists  in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt  nature. 



Why would God preserve her from the stain of Original Sin at the moment of her conception? To prepare her for her role as Mother of Our Lord--He took on flesh and blood, her flesh and blood, and was born from her and was raised by her. She humbly and faithfully answered God's call when He sent the angel Gabriel to her: 



 "Hail,  full of grace, the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28). 



The phrase "full of  grace" is a translation of the Greek word _kecharitomene_. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary. 



 The traditional translation, "full of grace," is better than the one  found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something  along the lines of "highly favored daughter." Mary was indeed a highly  favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it  never mentions the word for "daughter"). The grace given to Mary is at  once permanent and of a unique kind._Kecharitomene_ is a perfect passive participle of _charitoo_,  meaning "to fill or endow with grace." 



Since this term is in the  perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with  continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a  result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over  the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of  sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence. 

Concerning the reference, "all have sinned" (Rom. 3:23) and Mary proclaiming that her "spirit  rejoices in God my Savior" (Luke 1:47),  I agree that Mary, too, required a Savior. 



 Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of  contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God,  undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the  stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore* redeemed  by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation. The sanctifying grace that Christ won for redeemed Christians was applied to her at her conception.
*

   But what about Romans 3:23, "all have sinned"? Have all people  committed actual sins? Consider a child below the age of reason. By  definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason  and the ability to intend to sin (this also includes the severely mentally disabled). 



This is indicated by Paul later in the  letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau  were unborn babies as a time when they "had done nothing either good or  bad" (Rom. 9:11). 



 We also know of another very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus  (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception  for the New Adam (Jesus), one may argue that an exception for the New  Eve (Mary) can also be made. 



 The objection is sometimes also raised that if Mary were without sin, she would  be equal to God. In the beginning, God created Adam, Eve, and the  angels without sin, but none were equal to God. All of the holy angels in Heaven never  sinned, and all souls in heaven are without sin. 



This does not detract  from the glory of God, but manifests it by the work He has done in  sanctifying His creation.


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## Belle Du Jour

The Marian doctrines are very hard to understand/accept when you are raised Protestant, but if you simply think about Mary as the vessel (the new ark of the covenant) who carried our Lord, then the doctrines about Mary make sense.  Why would God put the son of God in an un-pure vessel?  Also, in my own journey, I have accepted that there are things that humans will never understand but if we pray for the faith we need to accept the truth, then God is will give us that peace.


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## Belle Du Jour

Galadriel, can you talk a little about the 7 books of the Bible that were removed after the Protestant Reformation?  I learned that these books were removed because they supported the Catholic doctrines that reformers were trying to eliminate.  It raises my spidey senses that Christians used a Bible for over 1500 years that was then altered.


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## makeupgirl

Galadriel said:


> The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way (a human mother and father), was by God's grace (and in light of Christ's merits) preserved from the stain of Original Sin.
> 
> 
> 
> The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature.
> 
> 
> 
> Why would God preserve her from the stain of Original Sin at the moment of her conception? To prepare her for her role as Mother of Our Lord--He took on flesh and blood, her flesh and blood, and was born from her and was raised by her. She humbly and faithfully answered God's call when He sent the angel Gabriel to her:
> 
> 
> 
> "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28).
> 
> 
> 
> The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word _kecharitomene_. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.
> 
> 
> 
> The traditional translation, "full of grace," is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of "highly favored daughter." Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for "daughter"). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind._Kecharitomene_ is a perfect passive participle of _charitoo_, meaning "to fill or endow with grace."
> 
> 
> 
> Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.
> 
> Concerning the reference, "all have sinned" (Rom. 3:23) and Mary proclaiming that her "spirit rejoices in God my Savior" (Luke 1:47), I agree that Mary, too, required a Savior.
> 
> 
> 
> *Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation. The sanctifying grace that Christ won for redeemed Christians was applied to her at her conception.*
> 
> 
> *But what about Romans 3:23, "all have sinned"? Have all people committed actual sins? Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin (this also includes the severely mentally disabled). *
> 
> 
> 
> This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they "had done nothing either good or bad" (Rom. 9:11).
> 
> 
> 
> We also know of another very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the New Adam (Jesus), one may argue that an exception for the New Eve (Mary) can also be made.
> 
> 
> 
> The objection is sometimes also raised that if Mary were without sin, she would be equal to God. In the beginning, God created Adam, Eve, and the angels without sin, but none were equal to God. All of the holy angels in Heaven never sinned, and all souls in heaven are without sin.
> 
> 
> 
> This does not detract from the glory of God, but manifests it by the work He has done in sanctifying His creation.


 
Im confused about the bold but also very interested.  Are you saying that when Mary became pregnant with Jesus, she was redeemed automatically? or did I misread it?  If I did misread it, I apologize in advance.


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## fifi134

It just doesn't make sense to me because of other verses such as Romans 5:12 that says:

*"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned--". *

It makes no distinction of any special exceptions.

Where does Scripture state that Mary was free from the stain of original sin?


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## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> The Marian doctrines are very hard to understand/accept when you are raised Protestant, but if you simply think about Mary as the vessel (the new ark of the covenant) who carried our Lord, then the doctrines about Mary make sense.  Why would God put the son of God in an un-pure vessel?  Also, in my own journey, I have accepted that there are things that humans will never understand but if we pray for the faith we need to accept the truth, then God is will give us that peace.



 Agreed. Jesus had no human father. The flesh, blood, and human nature that He became incarnated into comes from Mary. It would make sense (and esp. in light of Luke 1:28) that God would prepare her for this by preserving her from original sin by His grace.


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## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> @Galadriel, can you talk a little about the 7 books of the Bible that were removed after the Protestant Reformation?  I learned that these books were removed because they supported the Catholic doctrines that reformers were trying to eliminate.  It raises my spidey senses that Christians used a Bible for over 1500 years that was then altered.



Yes, the seven books you speak of are the deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament:



Tobit
Judith
Wisdom (or Wisdom of Solomon)
Wisdom of Jesus ben Sira (or Ecclesiasticus)
Baruch
1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees
These Old Testament books were in the Septuagint--the Jews' Greek translation of the Old Testament.

Who used the Septuagint?



Jews
Jesus and the Apostles
The early Church
Who rejected the seven deuterocanonicals and took them out of the Septuagint?




Palestinian Jews--at the Council of Jaminah in 90 AD. They also rejected the Christian New Testament
Protestant Reformers
Who kept the deuterocanonical books and did not throw them out of the OT?




Greek-speaking Jews
Ethiopian Jews
Jesus and the Apostles
the Early Church
Protestants rejected the deuterocanonicals largely because they backed up Catholic teaching, for example the teaching on Purgatory is derived from the book of Maccabees.


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## Galadriel

makeupgirl said:


> Im confused about the bold but also very interested.  Are you saying that when Mary became pregnant with Jesus, she was redeemed automatically? or did I misread it?  If I did misread it, I apologize in advance.



(Please note, I'm bolding for emphasis and clarification )

When Mary was conceived in *her* mother's womb, Mary's soul was infused with God's sanctifying grace and preserved from the stain of original sin. This redeemed her at that moment.

Hope that's a little more clear.


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## fifi134

Galadriel said:


> (Please note, I'm bolding for emphasis and clarification )
> 
> When Mary was conceived in *her* mother's womb, Mary's soul was infused with God's sanctifying grace and preserved from the stain of original sin. This redeemed her at that moment.
> 
> Hope that's a little more clear.



Galadriel I'm confused. How do you know this? What Scripture supports this?


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## Galadriel

fifi134 said:


> It just doesn't make sense to me because of other verses such as Romans 5:12 that says:
> 
> *"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned--". *
> 
> It makes no distinction of any special exceptions.
> 
> Where does Scripture state that Mary was free from the stain of original sin?



Yes, Romans 5:12 speaks to the general condition of humans. We are born with the stain of original sin, and we are mortal (we die).

However, bearing the stain of original sin isn't essential to human nature (meaning, you can be fully human and not be stained with original sin). 

Two examples which prove this:

1. Jesus Christ is fully man--flesh, blood, soul--yet He is sinless and was born without the stain of original sin.
2. Baptism washes away the stain of original sin. All baptized members of the Church have been cleansed of the stain of original sin.

There is a difference between original sin (being born deprived of sanctifying grace) and actual sin (my willful choice to disobey God's laws or commit immorality).

The "all" that Paul uses in Greek here does not mean "each and everyone without exception," because if this is true, then it means Christ (possessing a fully human nature as well) would also fall under this "all men have sinned." This is clearly not the case.

It is also clear that not every human commits actual sin:

-unborn children in the womb
-infants
-very young children under the age of reason
-the severely mentally disabled

So clearly there are exceptions.

Note in Luke 1:28 where the Archangel Gabriel addresses Mary as "full of grace." The Greek keracharitomene (full of grace) means to be endowed with the qualities of grace. Paul uses "keracharitomene" also to indicate the grace given to redeemed Christians.


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## Galadriel

fifi134 said:


> @Galadriel I'm confused. How do you know this? What Scripture supports this?



See post #24 and #15


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## makeupgirl

Galadriel said:


> (Please note, I'm bolding for emphasis and clarification )
> 
> When Mary was conceived in *her* mother's womb, Mary's soul was infused with God's sanctifying grace and preserved from the stain of original sin. This redeemed her at that moment.
> 
> Hope that's a little more clear.


 
Ok, thanks Galadriel


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## Belle Du Jour

Galadriel said:


> Yes, the seven books you speak of are the deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament:
> 
> 
> 
> Tobit
> Judith
> Wisdom (or Wisdom of Solomon)
> Wisdom of Jesus ben Sira (or Ecclesiasticus)
> Baruch
> 1 Maccabees
> 2 Maccabees
> These Old Testament books were in the Septuagint--the Jews' Greek translation of the Old Testament.



Slightly OT, but I have seen several renditions (paintings) of Judith killing Holofernes in various museums.  I haven't gotten around to reading that book of the Bible yet, but before I really learned about the 7 missing books  I remember thinking, I never learned that story in Sunday School 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Beheading_Holofernes


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## Belle Du Jour

Galadriel said:


> Who used the Septuagint?
> 
> 
> Jews
> Jesus and the Apostles
> The early Church
> Who rejected the seven deuterocanonicals and took them out of the Septuagint?
> 
> 
> Palestinian Jews--at the Council of Jaminah in 90 AD. They also rejected the Christian New Testament
> Protestant Reformers
> Who kept the deuterocanonical books and did not throw them out of the OT?
> 
> 
> Greek-speaking Jews
> Ethiopian Jews
> Jesus and the Apostles
> the Early Church
> *Protestants rejected the deuterocanonicals largely because they backed up Catholic teaching, for example the teaching on Purgatory is derived from the book of Maccabees.*




Just this small historical fact is more proof for me that the Church today (both Eastern and Western rites) is the direct extension of the early Church.  I know many dispute this fact, but the more you go back historically you realize it


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## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> Slightly OT, but I have seen several renditions (paintings) of Judith killing Holofernes in various museums.  I haven't gotten around to reading that book of the Bible yet, but before I really learned about the 7 missing books  I remember thinking, I never learned that story in Sunday School
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Beheading_Holofernes



Judith = Cool

'Tis all!


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## Galadriel

FYI

Nice explanation of The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.


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## Rsgal

*THE APOSTLE'S CREED IN THE BIBLE.*

The Apostle's Creed. 

(I love this prayer...)

I believe in God, *(Isaiah 44:6; 45:5)* 
the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth, *(Genesis 1:1; John 1:1-3; Acts 14:15)*

And in Jesus Christ, ( *Luke 2:11; John 20:28*)
His only Son, *( John 3:16; Proverbs 30:4)*
our Lord, *( John 20:28*)
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, *( Luke 1:35*) 
born of the Virgin*(Luke 1:27)* Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate, *(Luke 23:23-25*)
was crucified, *(John 19:20; Acts 4:10; all Gospels)*
dead *(1 Corinthians 15:3)*
and buried*. ( 1 Corinthians 15:4)* 
_He descended into Hell_*. (1 Peter 3:18; Luke 23:43)*

The third day *(1 Corinthians 15:4)*
He arose from the dead,* (1 Corinthians 15:4)*
He ascended into Heaven (*Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51, Acts 1:11)*
and is seated at the right hand
of God, *( Mark 16:19; Hebrews 1:*3) 
the Father Almighty.

From thence He shall come
to judge the _quick*_ and the dead*.(2 Timothy 4:1; John 5:22)*

I believe in the Holy Spirit*, ( John 15:26; 16:7-8, 13-14; Acts 13:2)*
the church universal, (* Galatians 3:26-29)*
the _communion **_ of saints, (* Revelation 19:14; Hebrews 10:25)*
the forgiveness of sins, *( Luke 7:48*)
the resurrection of the body, *( 1 Thessalonians 4:16; John 6:39)*
and life everlasting. *( John 10:28; 17:2-3)*

_* "quick"_ means "spiritually alive"
_** "communion"_ refers to "coming together"


*Comments on "He descended into Hell.":* 


(a) The closest translation of the original Latin is "He descended into the lower parts." It is unclear which is meant: *'Hell', 'Hades' or 'the Lake of Fire'*. The Hebrew term "Sheol" is sometimes translated "Hell" or "Hades", and other times "the grave". Some commentators claim this sentence means "He went into the grave." However, as Calvin aptly points out, earlier versions of the Creed already said "He was *. . .* buried." What would be the point of 'clarifying' an unambiguous statement by adding an ambiguous statement? Also, "He descended" is *active voice*. Jesus didn't *go* into the grave, His body *was placed* in the grave. 


(b) The placement of the comma in Luke seems to say "I tell you the truth -- you will be with Me in Paradise today." *However*, there is no punctuation in the original Greek text. it could also mean "Today I tell you the truth -- you will be with me in Paradise." in the sense of "I'm telling you right now -- you will be with me in Paradise." *On the basis of the biblical text* there is no reason to prefer the punctuation chosen by the translators. 


(c) Among both the authors of the New Testament and later commentators there is some confusion as to where Jesus' spirit was between His death and resurrection. Peter seems to indicate that He spent *at least part of the time* in Paradise preaching. To whom and about what continues to be a subject of debate. 


(d) Many theologians point out that the punishment for sin is not *physical* death, but *spiritual* death (separation from God) *and* punishment in Hell/the Lake of Fire. There is nothing to indicate that Jesus went *directly* to Paradise. He could have gone to the *punishment* part of Hades or to the Lake of Fire to take our punishment for a time and *then* gone to Paradise to preach.


----------



## auparavant

Question 1:  I can't figure out why the Ethiopian Orthodox and St. Mark's churches are not in full communion with full orthodoxy nor in Rome.  Anybody fully comprehend this?  I know there is history, but in light of the canonical books they have never gotten rid of in whichever councils...why?????


Question 2:  If you go to one of the Eastern churches not in full union, it that a mortal sin seeing they are not under Rome yet?


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## Galadriel

Rsgal thanks for the Apostle's Creed!

auparavant 

Found this at EWTN:

ALEXANDRIAN FAMILY OF LITURGICAL RITES
The Church of Alexandria in Egypt was one of the original centers of Christianity, since like Rome and Antioch it had a large Jewish population which was the initial object of apostolic evangelization. Its Liturgy is attributed to St. Mark the Evangelist, and shows the later influence of the Byzantine Liturgy, in addition to its unique elements.

• Coptic – Egyptian Catholics who returned to communion with Rome in 1741. The Patriarch of Alexandria leads the 200,000 faithful of this ritual Church spread throughout Egypt and the Near East.  The liturgical languages are Coptic (Egyptian) and Arabic. Most Copts are not Catholics.

• Ethiopian/Abyssinian – Ethiopian Coptic Christians who returned to Rome in 1846. The liturgical language is Geez. The 200,000 faithful are found in Ethiopia, Eritrea,  Somalia, and Jerusalem.

...................

So there are some St. Mark churches that are in full communion, and probably some church communities who aren't (probably  b/c of the issue of Petrine supremacy). I would probably not receive Eucharist in one of the not-in-full-communion churches unless it was an emergency.


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## ceecy29

Great thread! More reasons to love LHCF!!!


----------



## auparavant

Galadriel said:


> Rsgal thanks for the Apostle's Creed!
> 
> auparavant
> 
> Found this at EWTN:
> 
> ALEXANDRIAN FAMILY OF LITURGICAL RITES
> The Church of Alexandria in Egypt was one of the original centers of Christianity, since like Rome and Antioch it had a large Jewish population which was the initial object of apostolic evangelization. Its Liturgy is attributed to St. Mark the Evangelist, and shows the later influence of the Byzantine Liturgy, in addition to its unique elements.
> 
> • Coptic – Egyptian Catholics who returned to communion with Rome in 1741. The Patriarch of Alexandria leads the 200,000 faithful of this ritual Church spread throughout Egypt and the Near East.  The liturgical languages are Coptic (Egyptian) and Arabic. Most Copts are not Catholics.
> 
> • Ethiopian/Abyssinian – Ethiopian Coptic Christians who returned to Rome in 1846. The liturgical language is Geez. The 200,000 faithful are found in Ethiopia, Eritrea,  Somalia, and Jerusalem.
> 
> ...................
> 
> So there are some St. Mark churches that are in full communion, and probably some church communities who aren't (probably  b/c of the issue of Petrine supremacy). I would probably not receive Eucharist in one of the not-in-full-communion churches unless it was an emergency.



I'd love to find one out in the Southwest and not have to convert again.  We've been to St. Maryam here but they aren't in union with Rome.  Love the liturgy and mass and the cymbals they use.  We can't take communion with the Copts yet at all...you have to go to their confessor.  Love them!  Well, I love the Irish-filled churches as well.  Today was a little funny, with the responsorial, the kids said it sounded like "Aladdin" .  I thought I had suddenly blipped to the synagogue and the cantor was leading.    Thanks for this info and I'll pass it onto my daughter who is begging us to convert.  Um, nope.    If we don't have to.


----------



## BostonMaria

Galadriel said:


> @CoilyFields, of course!
> 
> In short, when Christ gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom (Matt. 16:18) and said the Gates of Hell will not prevail, and that Peter has the authority to "bind and loose," Our Lord was giving Peter (the first Pope) the protection of infallibility when teaching on matters of faith and morals in his official capacity as leader of the Church.
> 
> Infallbility does not mean the Pope is impeccable (sinless, or without personal fault/flaws). Infallibility is not the same as Inspiration (what the authors of the Bible had).
> 
> Infallibility is ONLY applicable when the Pope is declaring a dogma of the faith "ex-cathedra" or "from the Chair" (The Chair of St. Peter is a religious metaphor to the authority and headship of St. Peter over the Church). Also, ex-cathedra teachings are rooted in and coincides with Scripture and Tradition.
> 
> A couple of ex-cathedra teachings that have been declared:
> 
> 
> 
> *Jesus Christ is fully human and fully divine (True God and True Man)*. Today we might think, "of course He is! What's the big deal?" However during the time of the early Church, several heresies sprung up like Nestorianism (Christ was divine, and His divinity destroyed or absorbed His human nature) and Arianism (Christ was not divine, but a super-man). The Pope, by formally declaring ex-cathedra that Christ is True God and True Man, upheld with God's assistance, the truth of the two natures of Christ.
> *The Immaculate Conception.* The Blessed Virgin Mary, at the moment of her conception, was infused by God's sanctifying grace to prepare her for her role as the Mother of Christ (thus preserving her from the stain of Original Sin).
> 
> The purpose of infallibility is to not make an individual pope look wise  or holy, but it is God's way of assisting him in leading and guiding  the Church in accordance with His promise in Matt. 16:17-19. Another reason for infallibility is because Christ's Church is indefectible--His Bride will not and cannot lead us astray or teach error.



Hi Galadriel
I was raised Catholic and I have a question that maybe you or the other ladies can answer.  Do you believe that only Peter was given the keys to the kingdom or are we all able to bind and loose in Jesus' name?  Thanks!


----------



## OhmyKimB

I don't post over here anymore...I barely lurk, but just throwing my support it. After I went to a Catholic school for 2 years in HS I learned a lot. I also learned a really great respect towards Catholicism that wasn't present in the school I did attend. It taught me a lot about what I believe, this preservation of the history makes it easier for me to believe. I'll probably lurk in this thread...maybe in the CF forum again...we'll see.


----------



## Rsgal

*Charismatic Catholics*

Is anyone here a Charismatic?

If so, why and when did you become one?

Do you attend a Charismatic Congregation Church?


----------



## Belle Du Jour

*Re: THE APOSTLE'S CREED IN THE BIBLE.*



Rsgal said:


> The Apostle's Creed.
> 
> (I love this prayer...)
> 
> I believe in God, *(Isaiah 44:6; 45:5)*
> the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth, *(Genesis 1:1; John 1:1-3; Acts 14:15)*
> 
> And in Jesus Christ, ( *Luke 2:11; John 20:28*)
> His only Son, *( John 3:16; Proverbs 30:4)*
> our Lord, *( John 20:28*)
> who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, *( Luke 1:35*)
> born of the Virgin*(Luke 1:27)* Mary,
> suffered under Pontius Pilate, *(Luke 23:23-25*)
> was crucified, *(John 19:20; Acts 4:10; all Gospels)*
> dead *(1 Corinthians 15:3)*
> and buried*. ( 1 Corinthians 15:4)*
> _He descended into Hell_*. (1 Peter 3:18; Luke 23:43)*
> 
> The third day *(1 Corinthians 15:4)*
> He arose from the dead,* (1 Corinthians 15:4)*
> He ascended into Heaven (*Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51, Acts 1:11)*
> and is seated at the right hand
> of God, *( Mark 16:19; Hebrews 1:*3)
> the Father Almighty.
> 
> From thence He shall come
> to judge the _quick*_ and the dead*.(2 Timothy 4:1; John 5:22)*
> 
> I believe in the Holy Spirit*, ( John 15:26; 16:7-8, 13-14; Acts 13:2)*
> the church universal, (* Galatians 3:26-29)*
> the _communion **_ of saints, (* Revelation 19:14; Hebrews 10:25)*
> the forgiveness of sins, *( Luke 7:48*)
> the resurrection of the body, *( 1 Thessalonians 4:16; John 6:39)*
> and life everlasting. *( John 10:28; 17:2-3)*



The Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed are awesome professions of faith


----------



## Galadriel

BostonMaria said:


> Hi @Galadriel
> I was raised Catholic and I have a question that maybe you or the other ladies can answer.  Do you believe that only Peter was given the keys to the kingdom or are we all able to bind and loose in Jesus' name?  Thanks!



BostonMaria while we are all called to study and live out the faith, and be ready to give answers, Our Lord appointed Peter as the Head of His Church:

*John 1:42 *
42 And he brought him to Jesus.    Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon son of John. You will be called Cephas” (which, when translated, is Peter[a]). 



*Matthew 16:15-20*
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” 
 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” 
 17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[b] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[c] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[d] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[e] loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah. 


Upon Peter's confession of faith, Jesus proclaims Peter blessed and that God the Father had revealed to him that Jesus is the "Son of the Living God."


Jesus then says He will build His Church upon Peter and tells him the following:


1. A promise that the gates of Hell would not prevail against the Church. Since Peter and the Apostles went out spreading the Gospel, there has always been a Church, even in the midst of persecution. The Church is universal (Catholic), and meant for all peoples in all times and places. Also, this promise guarantees the indefectibility of the Church. Indefectibility means that the Church is protected by the Holy Spirit so that it will never teach/proclaim false doctrine.



2. The keys to the Kingdom and the authority to bind and loose specifically means the authority to either permit or forbid a moral or religious belief/practice. Jesus says whatever Peter binds on Earth (the lower court) will be bound in Heaven (the higher court), and likewise for loosing.



The early Church (100s AD, 200s AD, etc.) always recognized the primacy Peter (and those Bishops succeeding Peter in Rome).


*Tatian the Syrian*

 "Simon Cephas answered and said, ‘You are the Messiah, the Son of the  living God.’ Jesus answered and said unto him, ‘Blessed are you, Simon,  son of Jonah: flesh and blood has not revealed it unto thee, but my  Father which is in heaven. And I say unto thee also, that you are  Cephas, and on this rock will I build my Church; and the gates of hades  shall not prevail against it" (_The Diatesseron _23 [A.D. 170]). 

*Tertullian*

 "Was anything withheld from the knowledge of Peter, who is called  ‘the rock on which the Church would be built’ [Matt. 16:18] with the  power of ‘loosing and binding in heaven and on earth’ [Matt. 16:19]?" (_Demurrer Against the Heretics _22 [A.D. 200]). 
 "[T]he Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I  have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you  shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’  [Matt. 16:18–19]. . . . What kind of man are you, subverting and  changing what was the manifest intent of the Lord when he conferred this  personally upon Peter? Upon _you_, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to _you_ the keys" (_Modesty _21:9–10 [A.D. 220]). 

*The Letter of Clement to James*

 "Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake  of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set  apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus  himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter" (_Letter of Clement to James_ 2 [A.D. 221]). 


The Bishop of Rome (aka the Pope) along with his brother Bishops exercise the authority and leadership necessary to guide the universal Church in matters of faith and morals. 



Why can't we (the laity) have the keys too? Why can't just anyone declare doctrine?


1. Jesus is the true Head and Founder of the Church. He is the One who gave this authority directly to Peter. It is Christ's will that this be so.



2. The Body of Christ has different functions and roles for different members. Not all are leaders, Bishops, teachers, etc. Not all have the same gifts and vocations.



3. If anyone could declare doctrine, it would give rise to false interpretations, conflicting teachings, etc. and each person would set himself up as his own pope, his own authority. Or, it could devolve into a "church democracy" where  members vote on beliefs and doctrines (think of what happened in recent years with the Anglican church).


The purpose of leading the Church and having this authority is not to lord it over people, or to look lofty--it's to protect the flock (hence why Bishops are called our pastors or shepherds) and to protect, teach, and defend what the Apostles passed down (Scripture + Sacred Tradition).


This is why the Catholic Church has been able to exist, teach, and communicate its doctrines since 33 AD up until now, 2012 AD.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

*Re: Charismatic Catholics*



Rsgal said:


> Is anyone here a Charismatic?
> 
> If so, why and when did you become one?
> 
> Do you attend a Charismatic Congregation Church?



I have not been to a charismatic church, but a girl I went to high school with identifies herself as a charismatic Catholic.  I'm not really sure what that means?


----------



## Belle Du Jour

I have a question: is it normal for Catholics to not sing the hymns or say the responses or does it just depend upon the Church?  

Is it bad form to leave Mass right after the Eucharist?


----------



## Keen

*Re: Charismatic Catholics*



Rsgal said:


> Is anyone here a Charismatic?
> 
> If so, why and when did you become one?
> 
> Do you attend a Charismatic Congregation Church?



Do you mean the Charismatic groups within the church? If so no. I always look at Charismatic as a group for old people. I'm planning on joining them when I get my AARP card .


----------



## Rsgal

*Re: Charismatic Catholics*



Keen said:


> Do you mean the Charismatic groups within the church? If so no. I always look at Charismatic as a group for old people. I'm planning on joining them when I get my AARP card .



Sorry for not being clear.

Charismatics in the Catholic Church are the the ones who worship more like Pentecosts.. in tongoes, raise up their hands and shout or pray loud.  I call them the "saved, filled with the Holy Fire Catholics".  

I have tons of family that are charismatics

I used to go to a Charismatic Church in the NY area. It's the only such church in the Tri State area


----------



## Rsgal

Belle Du Jour said:


> I have a question: is it normal for Catholics to not sing the hymns or say the responses or does it just depend upon the Church?
> 
> Is it bad form to leave Mass right after the Eucharist?



I personally always participate in the mass, respond and say all the prayers.  I guess its because I'm a Cradle Catholic and could say the whole mass responses automatically since I was 7yrs. 
Maybe the Church you are talking about had congregants who aren't fluent in the worship language or who weren't catholics. 

When I was in High School I used to leave mass after communion, just to hang out with my peers outside, until I tripped on a kneeler on the pew, fell and slashed my face. Never did it again.  The Final Blessing is just as important to me as the rest of the mass


----------



## auparavant

Belle Du Jour said:


> I have a question: is it normal for Catholics to not sing the hymns or say the responses or does it just depend upon the Church?
> 
> Is it bad form to leave Mass right after the Eucharist?



No, it's not normal but is it done?  Yes.  We are giving thanksgiving and all parts of the liturgy are important.  Leaving right after eucharist or just before is bad form as well.  People should stay.  They should also stay and sing the closing hymn and wait for the priest and altar servers to proceed out of the sanctuary.  One should also greet the pastor.  Well, one should show up on time.......but we're doing much better now.  People do this because they are missing out through free will.  It's awful but it seems to me that pastors are clamping down on this.  But you can't force someone to sing, though.


----------



## auparavant

*Re: Charismatic Catholics*



Rsgal said:


> Sorry for not being clear.
> 
> Charismatics in the Catholic Church are the the ones who worship more like Pentecosts.. in tongoes, raise up their hands and shout or pray loud.  I call them the *"saved, filled with the Holy Fire Catholics"*.
> 
> I have tons of family that are charismatics
> 
> I used to go to a Charismatic Church in the NY area. It's the only such church in the Tri State area



Not to nitpick, but we can't make that distinction.  You are saved in the end, it's not over yet.  H-ly fire...if you were baptized and confirmed, then you've received the H-ly Spirit.  But I know what you mean.  I usually look at a service on Youtube and it's in Ireland and I just have to giggle cuz, bless their hearts, it just isn't like pentecostals at all...but I know not to judge.  Still, I


----------



## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> I have a question: is it normal for Catholics to not sing the hymns or say the responses or does it just depend upon the Church?
> 
> Is it bad form to leave Mass right after the Eucharist?



It's not normal (nor should it be) to not sing the hymns or say the responses. They hymns reflect our theology and belief, and when we sing them we are proclaiming our faith in God. The responses too are to be said.

I think the rule is that you should show up before the first reading and not leave before the consecration. If you have to leave after Eucharist for something reasonable (for example, you have young children at home, or you're not feeling well, etc.) then it's understandable. If you *can* stay until the end, then it's better to, but I don't think it's a moral infraction to leave after Eucharist (I'll double check though).


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Rsgal said:


> I personally always participate in the mass, respond and say all the prayers.  I guess its because I'm a Cradle Catholic and could say the whole mass responses automatically since I was 7yrs.
> Maybe the Church you are talking about had congregants who aren't fluent in the worship language or who weren't catholics.
> 
> When I was in High School I used to leave mass after communion, just to hang out with my peers outside, until I tripped on a kneeler on the pew, fell and slashed my face. Never did it again.  The Final Blessing is just as important to me as the rest of the mass





auparavant said:


> No, it's not normal but is it done?  Yes.  We are giving thanksgiving and all parts of the liturgy are important.  Leaving right after eucharist or just before is bad form as well.  People should stay.  They should also stay and sing the closing hymn and wait for the priest and altar servers to proceed out of the sanctuary.  One should also greet the pastor.  Well, one should show up on time.......but we're doing much better now.  People do this because they are missing out through free will.  It's awful but it seems to me that pastors are clamping down on this.  But you can't force someone to sing, though.





Galadriel said:


> It's not normal (nor should it be) to not sing the hymns or say the responses. They hymns reflect our theology and belief, and when we sing them we are proclaiming our faith in God. The responses too are to be said.
> 
> I think the rule is that you should show up before the first reading and not leave before the consecration. If you have to leave after Eucharist for something reasonable (for example, you have young children at home, or you're not feeling well, etc.) then it's understandable. If you *can* stay until the end, then it's better to, but I don't think it's a moral infraction to leave after Eucharist (I'll double check though).



Thank you for your responses.  That was one of the things I noticed right away when I started going to Mass.  Some people just don't participate.  I know I need to mind my own business and I try to remind myself not to judge.  Sometimes, I'm like the only person in my section that is singing.    Then I try to lower my voice because I'm not trying to "show out."  I love singing hymns. 

I also noticed that some people can't get outta there fast enough.  Like, as soon as the priest et al start the recessional, the hymn books close.   Again, maybe I just need to mind my own business and not judge.


----------



## Galadriel

*Catholic Prophecy*

One of my favorite areas of study is eschatology, the Book of Revelation, etc. I have a Protestant (formal) biblical education, so I'm very familiar with several Protestant views of the End Times and related prophecies--but how many of us are well versed in how the Church views this?

Here's a quote from St. Nilus:

    After the year 1900, toward the middle of the 20th century, the people of that time will become unrecognisable. When the time for the Advent of the Antichrist approaches, peoples minds will grow cloudy from carnal passions, and dishonour and lawlessness will grow stronger. Then the world will become unrecognisable. Peoples appearances will change, and it will be impossible to distinguish men from women due to there shamelessness in dress and style of hair. These people will be cruel and will be like wild animals because of the temptations of the Antichrist. There will be no respect for parents or elders, love will disappear, and Christian pastors, bishops, and priests will become vain men, completely failing to distinguish the right hand way from the left. At that time the morals and traditions of Christians and the Church will change. People will abandon modesty, and dissipation will reign. Falsehood and greed will attain great proportions, and woe to those who pile up treasures. Lust, adultery, homosexuality, secret deeds and murder will rule in society. 

    -- St. Nilus, 430 AD


*More to come*

Also, please note that I will distinguish between my own personal speculations and that which is actually official Church teaching.


----------



## Galadriel

Galadriel said:


> *
> Catholic Prophecy*
> 
> After the year 1900, toward the middle of the 20th century, the people of that time will become unrecognisable. When the time for the Advent of the Antichrist approaches, peoples minds will grow cloudy from carnal passions, and dishonour and lawlessness will grow stronger. Then the world will become unrecognisable. Peoples appearances will change, and it will be impossible to distinguish men from women due to there shamelessness in dress and style of hair. These people will be cruel and will be like wild animals because of the temptations of the Antichrist. There will be no respect for parents or elders, love will disappear, and Christian pastors, bishops, and priests will become vain men, completely failing to distinguish the right hand way from the left. At that time the morals and traditions of Christians and the Church will change. People will abandon modesty, and dissipation will reign. Falsehood and greed will attain great proportions, and woe to those who pile up treasures. Lust, adultery, homosexuality, secret deeds and murder will rule in society.
> 
> -- St. Nilus, 430 AD



The Church officially teaches the following about the end times and the return of Christ:

*The Church's ultimate trial* 
*675* Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575  will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious  deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the  price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is  that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies  himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576


*676* The  Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every  time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope  which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological  judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this  falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.578


*677*  The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final  Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.579  The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the  Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over  the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down  from heaven.580 God's triumph over the revolt of evil will  take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of  this passing world.581


* * II. TO JUDGE THE LIVING AND THE DEAD * 
*678* Following in the steps of the prophets and John the Baptist, Jesus announced the judgment of the Last Day in his preaching.582 Then will the conduct of each one and the secrets of hearts be brought to light.583 Then will the culpable unbelief that counted the offer of God's grace as nothing be condemned.584 Our attitude to our neighbor will disclose acceptance or refusal of grace and divine love.585 On the Last Day Jesus will say: "Truly I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me."586


*679*  Christ is Lord of eternal life. Full right to pass definitive judgment  on the works and hearts of men belongs to him as redeemer of the world.  He "acquired" this right by his cross. The Father has given "all  judgment to the Son".587 Yet the Son did not come to judge, but to save and to give the life he has in himself.588  By rejecting grace in this life, one already judges oneself, receives  according to one's works, and can even condemn oneself for all eternity  by rejecting the Spirit of love.589


* IN BRIEF * 
*680* Christ the Lord already reigns through the  Church, but all the things of this world are not yet subjected to him.  The triumph of Christ's kingdom will not come about without one last  assault by the powers of evil.



*681* On Judgment Day at the end of the world,  Christ will come in glory to achieve the definitive triumph of good over  evil which, like the wheat and the tares, have grown up together in the  course of history. 



*682* When he comes at the end of time to judge  the living and the dead, the glorious Christ will reveal the secret  disposition of hearts and will render to each man according to his  works, and according to his acceptance or refusal of grace.

--------------
This is what the Catholic is obligated to believe as a matter of faith concerning this.

Throughout history, there have been prophecies by saints and detailed explanations given, which I find very interesting.

In my next post (so as to not make this one too long) I'll list those prophecies. Feel free to comment!


----------



## Galadriel

*Catholic Prophecy (Continued)*

*The following is a general outlining of events prophesied by saints and some popes throughout history (also some corresponding Scripture to meditate on). These prophecies are  *not* part of *official* teaching (which can be found in the Catechism, which I quoted in my previous post), thus take the following as you see fit:



*1. Riots and war*

"You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end." (Matthew 24:6)



*2. An event causes the Pope to flee Rome. He is martyred in exile.*

"I have seen one of my successors, of the same name, who was fleeing over the bodies of his brethren. He will take refuge in some hiding place; but after a brief respite, he will die a cruel death. Respect for God has disappeared from human hearts. They wish to efface even God's memory. This perversity is nothing less than the beginning of the last days of the world." --Pope St. Pius X

And we saw in an immense light that is God: ‘something similar to how people appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it' a Bishop dressed in White ‘we had the impression that it was the Holy Father'. Other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark; before reaching there the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions. Beneath the two arms of the Cross there were two Angels each with a crystal aspersorium in his hand, in which they gathered up the blood of the Martyrs and with it sprinkled the souls that were making their way to God. 
--Sr. Lucia, The Third Secret of Fatima


*3. A new Pope is chosen + the rise of the Great Monarch*

Monk Adso (10th Century): "Some of our teachers say that a King of the Franks will possess the entire Roman Empire. He will be the greatest and last of all Monarchs. After having wisely governed his kingdom, he will go into Jerusalem and will lay his sceptre and his crown upon the Mount of Olives. Immediately afterwards, Antichrist will come."

St. Augustine, 5th Century):" A Frankish King will one day rule over the entire Roman Empire."

Old Saxon prophecy: "He will come from the Fleur-de-Lis..."

St. Caesar, 5th Century: "He shall recover the Crown of the Lilies....."

St. Hildegarde, German Abbess, 12th Century: "The White Flower again takes possession of the Throne of France."

Bishop Ageda, 12th Century: "He shall inherit the Crown of the Fleur-de-Lis"

Busto (15th Century): "The angelic Pope shall place an imperial crown on his head."


*4. The Three Days of Darkness (The Great Chastisement)*

"Behold, the day of the Lord shall come, a cruel day, and full of indignation, and of wrath, and fury, to lay the land desolate, and to destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven, and their brightness shall not display their light: the sun shall be darkened in his rising, and the moon shall not shine with her light. And I will visit the evils of the world, and against the wicked for their iniquity: and I will make the pride of infidels to cease, and will bring down the arrogancy of the mighty." (Isaiah 13: 9-11)

"God will send two punishments: one will be in the form of wars, revolutions and other evils; it shall originate on earth. The other will be sent from Heaven. There shall come over the whole earth an intense darkness lasting three days and three nights." --Bl. Anna Maria Taigi


*5. A period of peace*



*6. Rise of Anti-Christ*

"And we beseech you, Brethren, by the coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ and of our gathering together unto Him: that you may not be easily moved from your sense, nor be terrified, neither by spirit, nor by, word, nor by epistle as sent from us as if the day of the Lord were at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth and is lifted above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God." (2 Thess., 2:1-4)

"For he (Antichrist) being endued with all the power of the devil, shall come, not as a righteous king, nor as a legitimate king, in subjection to God, but an impious, unjust, and lawless one; as an apostate, iniquitous and murderous; as a robber, concentrating in himself satanic apostasy, and setting aside idols to persuade that he himself is God, raising up himself as the only idol, having in himself the multifarious errors of the other idols." --St. Iraneus (Against Heresies)


----------



## auparavant

Belle Du Jour said:


> Thank you for your responses.  That was one of the things I noticed right away when I started going to Mass.  Some people just don't participate.  I know I need to mind my own business and I try to remind myself not to judge.  Sometimes, I'm like the only person in my section that is singing.    Then I try to lower my voice because I'm not trying to "show out."  I love singing hymns.
> 
> I also noticed that some people can't get outta there fast enough.  Like, as soon as the priest et al start the recessional, the hymn books close.   Again, maybe I just need to mind my own business and not judge.



Eh, I saw that at protestant churches as well.  But I also saw those who felt obligated to shout and whatnot when they weren't led in teh spirit to do so.  We're so distracted as humans.  But the truth is right on that altar, in the liturgy, angels camped about...it's there.  We have to receive.  LOL  I remember a post where I mentioned girls bearing the gifts in sundressed without bras on!  You know the homily was "dress appropriately"  LOLOL....in love, though.


----------



## sunnygirl807

Great thread.  Thank you.


----------



## ktykaty

*Re: Charismatic Catholics*

Rsgal 



Rsgal said:


> Is anyone here a Charismatic?
> 
> If so, why and when did you become one?
> 
> Do you attend a Charismatic Congregation Church?




Charismatic catholic checking in. 

I become one in 2007. I'm charismatic because that's the plan God has for my life.

I'm in the process of becoming a member of a Charismatic Congregation.
I go to mass in a "regular" parish. Mass is mass is mass, no matter what.

If you have questions, feel free to ask.


----------



## LunadeMiel

Catholic checking in 

Great thread!


----------



## Belle Du Jour

*Re: Charismatic Catholics*



ktykaty said:


> Rsgal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Charismatic catholic checking in.
> 
> I become one in 2007. I'm charismatic because that's the plan God has for my life.
> 
> *I'm in the process of becoming a member of a Charismatic Congregation.*I go to mass in a "regular" parish. Mass is mass is mass, no matter what.
> 
> If you have questions, feel free to ask.



Can you explain what becoming a member of a Charismatic congregation means?  Thanks


----------



## Galadriel

I've met a couple of Charismatics, but I've never gone. Charismatic Catholics, please share!


----------



## Rsgal

*Re: Charismatic Catholics*



ktykaty said:


> @Rsgal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Charismatic catholic checking in.
> 
> *I become one in 2007. I'm charismatic because that's the plan God has for my life*.
> 
> I'm in the process of becoming a member of a Charismatic Congregation.
> I go to mass in a "regular" parish. Mass is mass is mass, no matter what.
> 
> If you have questions, feel free to ask.


 
Great! Thanks.
You are so true, Mass is mass no matter what.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

What are some of your favorite "easy to read" books about the faith?   I've heard Ca_tholicism for Dummies_  is actually a good read lol.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Anyone veil or wear a head cover for Mass?


----------



## auparavant

Lots of people mistakenly think that the doctrine of immaculate conception refers to Jesus when it refers to the state of grace that G-d placed Mary into.


----------



## auparavant

Belle Du Jour said:


> Anyone veil or wear a head cover for Mass?



Only when I go Tridentine.


----------



## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> What are some of your favorite "easy to read" books about the faith?   I've heard Ca_tholicism for Dummies_  is actually a good read lol.




Anything by Peter Kreeft is good .


----------



## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> Anyone veil or wear a head cover for Mass?



For traditional Latin (or Tridentine) Mass. I see a few ladies wearing chapel veils during regular Mass, Maybe I will too!


----------



## blazingthru

*Re: THE APOSTLE'S CREED IN THE BIBLE.*



Rsgal said:


> The Apostle's Creed.
> 
> (I love this prayer...)
> 
> I believe in God, *(Isaiah 44:6; 45:5)*
> the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth, *(Genesis 1:1; John 1:1-3; Acts 14:15)*
> 
> And in Jesus Christ, ( *Luke 2:11; John 20:28*)
> His only Son, *( John 3:16; Proverbs 30:4)*
> our Lord, *( John 20:28*)
> who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, *( Luke 1:35*)
> born of the Virgin*(Luke 1:27)* Mary,
> suffered under Pontius Pilate, *(Luke 23:23-25*)
> was crucified, *(John 19:20; Acts 4:10; all Gospels)*
> dead *(1 Corinthians 15:3)*
> and buried*. ( 1 Corinthians 15:4)*
> _He descended into Hell_*. (1 Peter 3:18; Luke 23:43)*
> 
> The third day *(1 Corinthians 15:4)*
> He arose from the dead,* (1 Corinthians 15:4)*
> He ascended into Heaven (*Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51, Acts 1:11)*
> and is seated at the right hand
> of God, *( Mark 16:19; Hebrews 1:*3)
> the Father Almighty.
> 
> From thence He shall come
> to judge the _quick*_ and the dead*.(2 Timothy 4:1; John 5:22)*
> 
> I believe in the Holy Spirit*, ( John 15:26; 16:7-8, 13-14; Acts 13:2)*
> the church universal, ( Galatians 3:26-29*) *



*This is new, My hymn always said the HOLY Catholic Church as does the Baptist Church and Methodist. I been reading this creed every Sunday for 40 years.* I have never seen it like this before with Church Universal. Also my apologies, I did not read all the post yet.  I don't read Creeds now, its still in my memory though.


----------



## loolalooh

The St. Anthony prayer for lost things never fails.


----------



## Galadriel

*Re: THE APOSTLE'S CREED IN THE BIBLE.*



blazingthru said:


> [/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]
> *This is new, My hymn always said the HOLY Catholic Church as does the Baptist Church and Methodist. I been reading this creed every Sunday for 40 years.* I have never seen it like this before with Church Universal. Also my apologies, I did not read all the post yet.  I don't read Creeds now, its still in my memory though.



Although Catholic means universal, yes the Creed recited in the Church says "Catholic Church" or "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church."


----------



## Galadriel

The Church founded by Jesus Christ has 4 marks or characteristics:

1. ONE

2. HOLY

3. CATHOLIC

4. APOSTOLIC


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Question: do novenas really work


----------



## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> Question: do novenas really work



Yes! Pray with confidence.

My two favorites are the "Novena to the Holy Trinity to obtain graces through the intercession of St. Therese" and the "Divine Mercy" novena (start it on Good Friday).


----------



## auparavant

I'm presently doing a St. Jude prayer as well as sending prayers directly to the Kotel (Western Wall).  I should give alms this weekend in addition.  Thinking about a Novena to the H-ly Trinity.


----------



## auparavant

Question:   Why did G-d use the ravens to give food to Eliahu/Elisha?  Aren't they considered ominous birds?  What is the significance of G-d using the raven?


----------



## Rsgal

Belle Du Jour said:


> What are some of your favorite "easy to read" books about the faith? I've heard Ca_tholicism for Dummies_  is actually a good read lol.


 
The Lamb's Supper: The Mass as Heaven on Earth by Dr. Scott Hahn. He has great books. 

He was ordained in 1982 in the Presbyterian Church and converted into the Catholic Church in 1986. 

I heard him speak on EWTN and was hooked on him and his wife.


----------



## Galadriel

auparavant said:


> Question:   Why did G-d use the ravens to give food to Eliahu/Elisha?  Aren't they considered ominous birds?  What is the significance of G-d using the raven?



Hmm, this would be something interesting to look up.


----------



## SouthernStunner

I have a question and this is not for just Catholics but anyone.  I am Catholic and was raised Roman Catholic and went to an all girl Catholic High School.  Anyway why do people say G_d or Holy Spi_it?

No offense to those that do buy why?


----------



## JeterCrazed

Sent from my Inspire HD using LHCF


----------



## Galadriel

JeterCrazed said:


> Sent from my Inspire HD using LHCF



 I see you


----------



## JeterCrazed

Galadriel said:
			
		

> I see you





Sent from my Inspire HD using LHCF


----------



## auparavant

SouthernStunner said:


> I have a question and this is not for just Catholics but anyone.  I am Catholic and was raised Roman Catholic and went to an all girl Catholic High School.  Anyway why do people say G_d or Holy Spi_it?
> 
> No offense to those that do buy why?



I do cuz I worshipped at synagogue first, long before I converted to the RCC.  It's just a Jewish thing. Just ignore it...it'll take longer to explain why lol.


----------



## JudithO

I have something that has been in my heart might stir up some trouble (I sincerely hope it doesn't)... I am a Roman Catholic BTW.. but I want to hear your thoughts. 

I pray that God forgives me if any of my thoughts below are sinful because I certainly do not mean them to be so. 

I think that the way we worship, the order of the mass etc... is mostly based on how things have been done historically and it dates back to the original history of the church which came from a Jewish culture. I mean, solemn hymns, quiet and recited prayers are one way to praise God, and while *there is absolutely nothing wrong with them,* I find them foreign to my culture and preference. I like to sing out loud, dance, clap and pray mostly in my own words to God during mass... I don't believe the gentiles worshiped in the same way as the Jews even though they are equal in the eyes of God. 

A lot of things we do... live Novena's, prayers to saints, and saying the rosary, confession.... while I find them really nice to do, and certainly understand why we do them (with biblical reasons)... I find them unnecessary for bringing me closer to Christ and my salvation. Doing these things my whole life put Christ in a place where I kept trying to reach, constantly... when in reality Christ has always been right here with me in the spirit and I could develop a personal relationship of love, trust and personal accountability to him. 

Maybe this only relates to the parishes I've attended.... but i've spent my whole life going to mass and only started growing as a Christian when I started to read the bible for myself, ask questions, ask God for help, engage with other Christian communities etc... I feel like I've just been going for mass every Sunday out of habit instead of that true excitement of going to a place where I can worship God in joy (except for the Eucharist).

I hope no one is offended and I pray this is not a sin to think like this... But I want to know what your thoughts are on these things... While the Catholic church is home for me and my family, I feel more culturally in place and spiritually uplifted when I go to a *a few* other non-catholic churches.


----------



## auparavant

judy4all said:


> I have something that has been in my heart might stir up some trouble (I sincerely hope it doesn't)... I am a Roman Catholic BTW.. but I want to hear your thoughts.
> 
> I pray that God forgives me if any of my thoughts below are sinful because I certainly do not mean them to be so.
> 
> I think that the way we worship, the order of the mass etc... is mostly based on how things have been done historically and it dates back to the original history of the church which came from a Jewish culture. I mean, solemn hymns, quiet and recited prayers are one way to praise God, and while *there is absolutely nothing wrong with them,* I find them foreign to my culture and preference. I like to sing out loud, dance, clap and pray mostly in my own words to God during mass... I don't believe the gentiles worshiped in the same way as the Jews even though they are equal in the eyes of God.
> 
> A lot of things we do... live Novena's, prayers to saints, and saying the rosary, confession.... while I find them really nice to do, and certainly understand why we do them (with biblical reasons)... I find them unnecessary for bringing me closer to Christ and my salvation. Doing these things my whole life put Christ in a place where I kept trying to reach, constantly... when in reality Christ has always been right here with me in the spirit and I could develop a personal relationship of love, trust and personal accountability to him.
> 
> Maybe this only relates to the parishes I've attended.... but i've spent my whole life going to mass and only started growing as a Christian when I started to read the bible for myself, ask questions, ask God for help, engage with other Christian communities etc... I feel like I've just been going for mass every Sunday out of habit instead of that true excitement of going to a place where I can worship God in joy (except for the Eucharist).
> 
> I hope no one is offended and I pray this is not a sin to think like this... But I want to know what your thoughts are on these things... While the Catholic church is home for me and my family, I feel more culturally in place and spiritually uplifted when I go to a *a few* other non-catholic churches.



Great question.  G-d allows for our individuality.  Here's a Roman Catholic Mass:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3nV83QaV94&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL72B4FD5331DAF847

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD4_...PL72B4FD5331DAF847&lf=results_main&playnext=2


As for sacramentals, 

http://www.crossroadsinitiative.com..._their_role_in_Catholic_Sacramental_Life.html

So, the blessings are the actual sacramentals that mirror in some way the sacraments of the Church and these blessings go hand-in-hand with a sacred sign of some sort and represent, through the Church's intercession, benefits or graces G-d wishes to bestow on us...is my understanding.

_*"Structure, Purpose and Efficacy*: The first purpose of the sacramentals is to prepare for and extend the grace of the sacraments.  In the sacraments, it is Christ himself who is acting and so grace is objectively conferred ex opere operato, that is, by virtue of the performing of the rite by  a valid minister acting as Christ’s instrument.  As acts of the Church, the sacramentals may also be occasions for grace ex opere operantis ecclesiae, that is, by virtue of the intercession of the Church.  They are not efficacious in the same way nor to the same degree as the sacraments, but are more powerful than the private intercession of Christians precisely because they represent and make present the intercession of the entire Church. 

The direct relationship between some sacra*men*tals and a particular sacrament are easy to see: the blessing of meals is connected to the Euch*arist, the blessing of homes relates to Matrimony, while the sprinkling of Holy Water recalls  bap*tism.  The second purpose of sacramentals is the sanctification of every occasion of life.  Hence the Book of Blessings contains blessings of work places, tools, schools, athletic events, etc.  There are generally two parts to any liturgy of sacramental blessing: 1) proclamation of the Word of God through Scripture readings and an optional homily and 2) praise of God’s goodness followed by petition for his help and protection (BB 20).  Since it is in Christ and especially through his death and resurrection that God pours out his blessings upon us, virtually all the sac*ra*mentals contain the name of Jesus and the sign of the cross (Eph 1:3; SC 61, CCC 1671).  In requiring that proclamation of God’s Word never be omitted from the celebration of the sacra*men*tals, the Church wishes to make clear that these rites depend on and are intended to strengthen faith.  Superstition, the idea that certain rituals properly performed automatically obtain certain benefits from God (BB 10, 18, 23, 27) is alien to this perspective of faith and must never be confused with the truly Catholic use of the sacramentals.  The Church’s intercession, made present by the sacra*mentals, can bear fruit only in the lives of those who are properly disposed (SC 11 cited in BB 15; SC 61)."

_


----------



## Galadriel

judy4all said:


> I have something that has been in my heart might stir up some trouble (I sincerely hope it doesn't)... I am a Roman Catholic BTW.. but I want to hear your thoughts.
> 
> I pray that God forgives me if any of my thoughts below are sinful because I certainly do not mean them to be so.
> 
> I think that the way we worship, the order of the mass etc... is mostly based on how things have been done historically and it dates back to the original history of the church which came from a Jewish culture. I mean, solemn hymns, quiet and recited prayers are one way to praise God, and while *there is absolutely nothing wrong with them,* I find them foreign to my culture and preference. I like to sing out loud, dance, clap and pray mostly in my own words to God during mass... I don't believe the gentiles worshiped in the same way as the Jews even though they are equal in the eyes of God.




I've seen different styles of worship at different Masses, so it may just be a matter of finding the Catholic community that has a Mass that incorporates some of those elements. There are charismatic Catholics who like to worship in a certain way, and I've attended a predominately African-American Catholic parish where we used a "Traditional African Hymnal" and sang songs from that. Also, if you attend Mass w/ a community from a different culture, they each have their own style. 

I believe there is a "core" to the Mass of Scripture and Liturgy that is our foundation, and it's all right for us to express our joy and love in worship. At the same time, ultimately the focal point is (and should be) the liturgy of the Eucharist, where Christ is present in the consecrated bread and wine. Remember that Mass is prayer, and through it Christ's eternal sacrifice is made present and God rains down blessings upon us. Instead of making yourself (and I mean this in general) the focal point of worship, shouldn't it be God?



judy4all said:


> A lot of things we do... live Novena's, prayers to saints, and saying the rosary, confession.... while I find them really nice to do, and certainly understand why we do them (with biblical reasons)... I find them unnecessary for bringing me closer to Christ and my salvation.



Why wouldn't they? The Rosary is meditation and prayer derived from Scripture centering on the lives of Jesus and Mary. There are many graces attached to the Rosary. The Blessed Virgin even made 15 promises to those who pray the Rosary with devotion.

Confession is a sacrament, and necessary, especially if you've committed a mortal sin. Confession and absolution should bring you closer to Christ and give you grace.



judy4all said:


> Doing these things my whole life put Christ in a place where I kept trying to reach, constantly... when in reality Christ has always been right here with me in the spirit and I could develop a personal relationship of love, trust and personal accountability to him.
> 
> Maybe this only relates to the parishes I've attended.... but i've spent my whole life going to mass and only started growing as a Christian when I started to read the bible for myself, ask questions, ask God for help, engage with other Christian communities etc... I feel like I've just been going for mass every Sunday out of habit instead of that true excitement of going to a place where I can worship God in joy (except for the Eucharist).



Well this may be the crux of the issue--you've been doing things "out of habit" but without inner-transformation or depth. Then you go on to say you obtain that same depth through reading Scripture and a relationship with Christ, and oddly separate it from your Catholic faith. (I hope this doesn't come across as offensive, but this is my observation based on your words)

Perhaps there would be more of a reconciliation of this predicament if you didn't think the two were separate to begin with.

Our Church put together the Bible--we definitely love Scripture, and if you're interested in studying/reading it why don't you go to a Bible study at your local parish?

Christ is the center of our faith, therefore we should strive to love Him, honor Him, and worship Him always. The saints are wonderful examples of people who grew close to Christ while here on earth. 

Just think of St. Therese the Little Flower, who loved Christ every moment of her life and dedicated herself completely to Him. Even though she died at the age of 24, her insight into Scripture and her beautiful relationship with Christ made her a well-loved Saint--and a Doctor of the Church.

St. Maximilian Kolbe, who stood for the truth of Christ and the Gospel of Peace in the face of the Nazis, who preached and taught about Christ even inside a concentration camp and went to his execution with complete confidence in Our Lord. Did he have less of a relationship with Christ? Was he less knowledgeable about Jesus or the Bible?

I encourage you, in addition to Scripture reading, to read the Catechism, pray the Rosary, and read about the lives of the saints. Our Blessed Mother will always point you toward her Son, as will the saints and the sacraments.


----------



## JudithO

^ Galadriel I agree.. I mostly did things out of habit until I got older .... 

Did I separate my reading scripture and learning from the Catholic Church? In the context of my post... Yes... Simply because I believe that a church (regardless of what/where it is) can only help and encourage you to grow a relationship with Christ that already exists... If you haven't taken time to establish that relationship, then no Church in the world can help you. People in a church? Maybe.... But my family and those I grew up around really emphasized on things that I need to be doing (with good reason) and not on an emphasis that I need to take my time to establish a personal relationship with Christ.... (No I do not find your post offensive)

No... I didn't say (or imply) the Church doesn't love Scripture... As a matter of fact, I'm yet to see any church in the world that reads actual on a daily basis scripture as we do. Between the first, second, responsorial, gospel readings, and the rest of the mass... The bible is everywhere. I simply meant that even though I heard these passages .. over and over again, I was never really encouraged to go out and read/understand for myself... I didn't even know so much of the mass was from the bible until I started asking questions and studying on my own. 

I think you misunderstood my post... I wasn't trying to undermine the efficacy of the church (I wouldn't be catholic if I felt it wasn't Christ centered)... 

My point was.. regardless of what denomination we belong to.. We all have one goal... to be saved at the end.... Christ won't ask what denomination you identify with. 

As unique individuals, a one-size fits all approach IMO is impractical... Hence why I can identify with some things.. and others I don't. 

To me... as salvation is the goal, it should always always be the focus of every Christian and church.... other distractions, the reasons why denominations exist today, rules, regulations and rituals, even though they have good intentions mostly serve to distract from the goal. 

Tis' all.


----------



## ktykaty

judy4all,

Please don't take my comments for you.  I don't want to offend. i speak in general.

Mass is the sacrament of communion. Its purpose is to consolidate our union to Christ and to bring us together as one body and one Church. The codification of mass is necessary to make sure that all other the world the sacrament is the same.  Mass is not the place to clap, jump, pray in your own words. There is a place and a moment for everything. 
If one wants to clap, pray and dance to the Lord, there are prayer groups for that. The RCC is diverse enough so that anyone can find a prayer group that suits them. 

The RCC encourages us to have a personal one and one relationship with Jesus. We cannot force people to read their bible and get to know God for themselves but we do give them the necessary tools (mass, reconciliation, novenas, prayers, ...) to experience the love of God. There's a point where it is up to each and every individual to do what is needed to have a personal relationship with God.

HTH.


Sorry for the typo. I'm on my phone.


----------



## auparavant

judy4all said:


> To me... as salvation is the goal, it should always always be the focus of every Christian and church.... other distractions, the reasons why denominations exist today, rules, regulations and rituals, even though they have good intentions mostly serve to distract from the goal.
> 
> Tis' all.



Actually, the reason there are denominations are that many didn't like the rules handed down directly by Christ.  It happens in Judaism as well.  We know that the rituals we have are sacred rituals pointing to the communion with Christ.  They are holy tradition handed down by G-d.  Interesting to note, in the manner and succession of Judaism and the handing of the written law as well as the oral law to Moses by G-d, we have the apostolic traditions which we guard.  Jesus didn't change anything of the Torah nor the writings.


----------



## JudithO

^^^Actually the only people given rules directly by God were the Jews... they are the only ones that have seen God (via Moses). I mean from God the Father... not the Son or Spirit.

Can you imagine what will happen if someone came today and told you that they are God?? That's what Christ did..  they had the rules, rituals, and proof of God himself.. and there comes Christ.. eating with the prostitues and tax collectors.. forgiving sins... being blasphemious by human standards... we all. Know how this story ends... but my point is... history and rules handed down from even the most reliable sources (in their case God) doesnt always mean efficacy.... because of human intervention those rules have been abused...  remember St. Paul... the reason he murdered christians is because he ws following the law handed down.. remember he was a pharasee before he encountered christ.

And Christ changed a lot...  we went from having all these rules and rituals...  to having one simple one... love one another and everything else will follow.

Now this is not saying the church's teachings are not effective... it is simply saying that while history and rules are important.... they are not alwys perfect..


----------



## auparavant

judy4all said:


> ^^^Actually the only people given rules directly by God were the Jews... they are the only ones that have seen God (via Moses). I mean from God the Father... not the Son or Spirit.
> 
> Can you imagine what will happen if someone came today and told you that they are God?? That's what Christ did..  they had the rules, rituals, and proof of God himself.. and there comes Christ.. eating with the prostitues and tax collectors.. forgiving sins... being blasphemious by human standards... we all. Know how this story ends... but my point is... history and rules handed down from even the most reliable sources (in their case God) doesnt always mean efficacy.... because of human intervention those rules have been abused...  remember St. Paul... the reason he murdered christians is because he ws following the law handed down.. remember he was a pharasee before he encountered christ.
> 
> And Christ changed a lot...  we went from having all these rules and rituals...  to having one simple one... love one another and everything else will follow.
> 
> Now this is not saying the church's teachings are not effective... it is simply saying that while history and rules are important.... they are not alwys perfect..




Hebrew here checking in, though I converted.    However, that's why I'm pointing to the universal church as the succession to judaism.  He said, and I quote:



_<< Matthew 5 >>
New International Version 1984	 
16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.
The Fulfillment of the Law

17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
_
St. Paul wasn't following the law because there is none to kill christians.  Believe me, it's not part of the 613 mitzvot.  It was his interpretation of what  heresy is...and he himself was a murderor - not a defender of the faith.   I think that what we all are trying to get you to see, there is the core, the base, the truth within...the sacramentals are sacred signs of the spiritual sacraments and graces bestowed.  Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater because it's hard to appreciate what has become the mundane.  Everyone goes through a lack of faith to various degrees.  It's when you find that spark that you find even more life within.


----------



## auparavant

judy4all said:


> And Christ changed a lot...  we went from having all these rules and rituals...  to having one simple one... love one another and everything else will follow.



I've broken these posts up.  The Passover:


_<< *Matthew 26* >>
New International Version 1984	 
26While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”

27Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28This is my blood of theb covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

30When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives._


_<< *1 Corinthians 1*1 >>
New International Version 1984	 
24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes._
--------------------------------------------------------------
*Eucharistic Prayer I*

We come to your, Father, with praise and thanksgiving, through Jesus Christ your Son. Through him we ask you to accept and bless these gifts we offer you in sacrifice. We offer them for your holy catholic Church, watch over it, Lord, and guide it; grant it peace and unity throughout the world. We offer them for John Paul our Pope, for {name of Bishop in your diocese} our bishop, and for all who hold and teach the catholic faith that comes to us from the apostles. 

Remember, Lord, your people, especially those for whom we now pray, {names}. Remember all of us gathered here before you. You know how firmly we believe in you and dedicate ourselves to you. We offer you this sacrifice of praise for ourselves and those who are dear to us. We pray to you, our living and true God, for our well-being and redemption. 

In union with the whole Church we honor Mary, the ever-virgin mother of Jesus Christ our Lord and God. We honor Joseph, her husband, the apostles and martyrs Peter and Paul, Andrew [James, John, Thomas, James, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Simon and Jude; we honor Linus, Cletus, Clement, Sixtus, Cornelius, Cyprian, Lawrence, Chrysogonus, John and Paul, Cosmas and Damian] and all the saints. May their merits and prayers gain us your constant help and protection. [Through Christ our Lord. Amen.] 

Father, accept this offering from your whole family. Grant us your peace in this life, save us from final damnation, and count us among those you have chosen. [Through Christ our Lord. Amen.] 

Bless and approve our offering; make it acceptable to you, and offering in spirit and in truth. Let is become for us the body and blood of Jesus Christ, your only Son, our Lord. 

*The day before he suffered he took break in his sacred hands and looking up to heaven, to you, his almighty Father, he gave you thanks and praise. He broke the bread, gave it to his disciples, and said: Take this, all of you, and eat it: this is my body which will be given up for you. 

When supper was ended, he took the cup. Again he gave you thanks and praise, gave the cup to his disciples, and said: Take this, all of you, and drink from it: this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven. Do this in memory of me. 

Let us proclaim the mystery of faith. *

-------------------------------------

It's right there.  For many people, if they do not know the Jewish roots of their faith, they are truly missing the deepest meaning of the order of the mass...of the christian faith.


----------



## JudithO

^^ I didn't mean that it is actually written to kill Christians.. sorry if my post sounded like that... i meant that St. Paul did the things he did in the name of the law.. thanks for clarifying tho.

Again.. i think u guys r interpreting my post to mean that im losing my faith in Christ or thr Church... im simply saying that ther r things (like any church - i only call the RCC cos thats where I go) that IN MY OPINION, although well intended, serve to shift focus from the end goal and building a relationship with christ. I appreciate all Y'alls comments btw even tho we may not agree...


----------



## ktykaty

judy4all said:


> My point was.. regardless of what denomination we belong to.. We all have one goal... to be saved at the end.... Christ won't ask what denomination you identify with.
> 
> *As unique individuals, a one-size fits all approach IMO is impractical... Hence why I can identify with some things.. and others I don't. *
> 
> To me... as salvation is the goal, it should always always be the focus of every Christian and church.... other distractions, the reasons why denominations exist today,* rules, regulations and rituals, even though they have good intentions mostly serve to distract from the goal. *
> 
> Tis' all.



I have a question, what is your personal definition of salvation ?? How does it manifests ??


To the first bolded. The approach of the RCC is not one size fit all. Quite the opposite. It's mass for everyone and other groups/activities to carter to your taste. Even in the organization of mass, there's room for cultural differentiation while mass stays mass.

To the second bolded. Maybe novenas, rosary, ... are not your cup of tea. They are not distractions. We are universal, there's stuff inside the RCC for all tastes. In the RCC, rules, regulations and rituals only purpose is to give us an opportunity to meet Jesus and to get to know him better. It's always all about Jesus.

HTH.


----------



## ktykaty

*Re: Charismatic Catholics*



Belle Du Jour said:


> Can you explain what becoming a member of a Charismatic congregation means?  Thanks



Sorry for being so late.

In my community, we have a minimum of two years before becoming a "full" member, so that one can discern whether or not they are really called into the community.


----------



## ktykaty

Galadriel said:


> I've met a couple of Charismatics, but I've never gone. Charismatic Catholics, please share!




In a charismatic assembly, usually there is lots of singing/praise, people are singing or speaking in tongues or prophesying, hands are raised, people are praying spontaneously, giving thanks to the Lord in their own words. Sometime we dance. 
One characteristic of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is a strong adherence to the Gospel and the teachings of the Church.

Different community/prayer group/person have different ministry. Some are specialized in healing or deliverance.

Mass in a charismatic parish is more lively and joyful.


----------



## auparavant

judy4all said:


> ^^ I didn't mean that it is actually written to kill Christians.. sorry if my post sounded like that... i meant that St. Paul did the things he did in the name of the law.. thanks for clarifying tho.
> 
> Again.. i think u guys r interpreting my post to mean that im losing my faith in Christ or thr Church... im simply saying that ther r things (like any church - i only call the RCC cos thats where I go) that IN MY OPINION, although well intended, serve to shift focus from the end goal and building a relationship with christ. I appreciate all Y'alls comments btw even tho we may not agree...



No problem, I understood...and still, it was his interpretation to justify his killings and that of the most strict sect, the Pharisees, whom Jesus rebuked for their lack of soul,basically.  Of course, the L-rd threw Saul off his high horse.


----------



## Galadriel

judy4all said:


> My point was.. regardless of what denomination we belong to.. We all have one goal... to be saved at the end.... Christ won't ask what denomination you identify with.



The Church isn't a denomination.




judy4all said:


> To me... as salvation is the goal, it should always always be the focus of every Christian and church.... other distractions, the reasons why denominations exist today, rules, regulations and rituals, even though they have good intentions mostly serve to distract from the goal.



What do you mean by "rules, regulations and rituals"?


----------



## Galadriel

judy4all said:


> Now this is not saying the church's teachings are not effective... it is simply saying that while history and rules are important.... they are not alwys perfect..



You know how we Catholics like to use precise terminology . What are you defining as "rules"?


----------



## JudithO

ktykaty Salvation to me means being safe from eternal damnation when I leave earth.... It means loving and trusting Christ with all of my heart and soul by his grace, and living according to his teachings (with guidance from the Holy Spirit).. What brings me closer to salvation? Anything or anyone who helps me grow spiritually and helps me understand, love, trust and obey Christ even more. 

Galadriel Some things that I feel are nice but unnecessary? Novena's, Intercessory Prayers to Saints, praying the rosary, ashes on ash Wednesday, not eating meat on Fridays during Lent, not saying Halleluiah and the Gloria during lent, the general aura of sadness and heavy hearts during lent, confession requirement/recommendation once a yr, naming after *canonized* saints when we receive the different sacraments.... 

Please do not try to explain why these things I mention above are right to do or biblical, why we do them etc... because I know they are, I know the biblical passages that support them, and I see absolutely nothing wrong with them. 

I just do not think they are *necessary* for salvation, or helping me understand the person of Christ better. 

I'll be glad to elaborate if you want to know why I think any of those things are not necessary.... but please don't point me to biblical passages telling me why these things are good/bad.... because I most likely have read them already.. and it will take away from the point I'm trying to make.


----------



## Galadriel

judy4all said:


> @Galadriel Some things that I feel are nice but unnecessary? Novena's, Intercessory Prayers to Saints, praying the rosary, ashes on ash Wednesday, not eating meat on Fridays during Lent, not saying Halleluiah and the Gloria during lent, the general aura of sadness and heavy hearts during lent, confession requirement/recommendation once a yr, naming after *canonized* saints when we receive the different sacraments....
> 
> Please do not try to explain why these things I mention above are right to do or biblical, why we do them etc... because I know they are, I know the biblical passages that support them, and I see absolutely nothing wrong with them.
> 
> I just do not think they are *necessary* for salvation, or helping me understand the person of Christ better.
> 
> I'll be glad to elaborate if you want to know why I think any of those things are not necessary.... but please don't point me to biblical passages telling me why these things are good/bad.... because I most likely have read them already.. and it will take away from the point I'm trying to make.



With all due respect, your position seems to hold contradictions. On one hand you say these things are rooted in the Bible and are good, but on the other hand you say they contribute nothing to one's Christian life or closeness with Christ (or worse, distracts one from Christ).


----------



## JudithO

^^Distracts.. is the wrong word... cos it implies that it takes away from Christ... So I'm sorry I used that word as that is not what I meant...

I don't think my post is contradictory.... E.g... I can ask a Saint to intercede on my behalf OR I, with the help of the Holy Spirit that dwells in me can go directly to Christ and ask for forgiveness myself.... While there is nothing wrong with the former, I do not *need* to do it when I can just do the latter. There is a different level of humility, trust, and accountability when you go directly to someone you hurt to ask for forgiveness vs asking someone to intercede on your behalf. I believe that the level of friendship and trust (and maybe it is psychological) that you develop when you always go to Christ directly for praise, forgiveness, and favors, is different from that you develop by going thru intercessors and that over time will help grow stronger and much closer to Christ cos you have the confidence to approach him knowing that he will listen. For me, intercessory prayers instilled fear *for* the lord in me... cos I was so afraid to go to him directly, and instead chose to go thru another route. 

This is just an example where I find it good, but unnecessary....


----------



## Belle Du Jour

I kinda like the rules of the CC 

I was always curious about religious traditions that seemed to do more "stuff" that we did in my Protestant denomination growing up.  And I always wondered what happened to the rituals Jews used to do and why they disappeared from Christianity.  I get that Christ was the fulfillment of the law and a lot of the old rules may not apply to us and I don't think the lack of tradition is necessarily wrong, but I think that when you understand the symbolism behind what is done at Mass, you see the beauty of tradition.

Mass is very misjudged and misunderstood.  The more I went, the more I realized it wasn't this boring thing to just sit through, but a very reverent sacred time.  I can still appreciate a more protestant style of worship in terms of music, preaching, etc so I will definitely be checking out Charismatic churches in the near future.

Regarding sacramentals, from what I understand, they are not necessary, but I feel like that bring me closer to God.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Galadriel said:


> Confession is a sacrament, and necessary, especially if you've committed a mortal sin. Confession and absolution should bring you closer to Christ and give you grace.



This is a little bit of a sticking point for me: why do you have to go to confession for mortal sins?  Why can't those sins be absolved by simply asking God for forgiveness or the Confetior at mass?  I know you have to be in a state of grace to take communion but why do you need confession to be in a state of grace?


----------



## auparavant

Because in those old days, Jews went to the priests to leave a small sacrifice and receive absolution.  This is where it comes from.  You need confession to restore a state of grace after having committed a mortal sin.  Mortal sin removes that grace.  Days of RCIA with Matthew and John...and me cutting up in class.  LOL.     

I'm lazy tonight...so here's a quick web...listen to the thing here.  Scroll to the bottom for "Why do catholic confess to a priest" and click on the "answer" button:

http://www.catholicscomehome.org/answers-why-confession.php


_Well, the quick answer is because that's the way God wants us to do it. In James 5:16, God, through Sacred Scripture, commands us to "confess our sins to one another." Notice, Scripture does not say confess your sins straight to God and only to God...it says confess your sins to one another.

In Matthew, chapter 9, verse 6, Jesus tells us that He was given authority on earth to forgive sins. And then Scripture proceeds to tell us, in verse 8, that this authority was given to "men"...plural.

In John 20, verses 21-23, what is the 1st thing Jesus says to the gathered disciples on the night of His resurrection? "Jesus said to them, 'Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.'" How did the Father send Jesus? Well, we just saw in Mt 9 that the Father sent Jesus with the authority on earth to forgive sins. Now, Jesus sends out His disciples as the Father has sent Him...so, what authority must Jesus be sending His disciples out with? The authority on earth to forgive sins. And, just in case they didn't get it, verses 22-23 say this, "And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.'"

Why would Jesus give the Apostles the power to forgive or to retain sins if He wasn't expecting folks to confess their sins to them? And how could they forgive or retain sins if no one was confessing their sins to them?

The Bible tells us to confess our sins to one another. It also tells us that God gave men the authority on Earth to forgive sins. Jesus sends out His disciples with the authority on earth to forgive sins. When Catholics confess our sins to a priest, we are simply following the plan laid down by Jesus Christ. He forgives sins through the priest...it is God's power, but He exercises that power through the ministry of the priest._


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## auparavant

judy4all;15588651
Please do not try to explain why these things I mention above are right to do or biblical said:
			
		

> necessary[/B] for salvation, or helping me understand the person of Christ better.
> 
> I'll be glad to elaborate if you want to know why I think any of those things are not necessary.... but please don't point me to biblical passages telling me why these things are good/bad.... because I most likely have read them already.. and it will take away from the point I'm trying to make.



The church didn't say that novenas and rosaries are necessary for salvation.  Does prayer and the reciting or reading of scripture help one to know Christ better?  Novenas are prayers.  The rosary is scripture.  But there is no mandate to pray the rosary for salvation. I find that people who do such long prayers are actually offering up a sacrifice to the L-rd.  They are putting in more than the necessary time and actions to maintain their faith.  They are going beyond because they love Him and wish to get closer.


----------



## Rsgal

*Why Did You Convert?*

Question for the Converts:

Why did you convert to Catholicism?

As a cradle Catholic, I took a lot of things in the church for granted. My faith has tremendously grown in the last 10 years mainly because of influences from converts. Their dedication and enthusiasm has been such a blessing to me and helped me strength my faith.

Here are some of the Converts who are such an inspiration to me. I’ve read their books, followed on FB, their websites and heard their messages on TV.

*Dr. Scott Hahn-*----Presbyterian Minister. Converted in 1986. 
www.*scotthahn*.com/ - he (and his wife) is great public speaker and writer.

*Richard L Lane*. Former Lutheran. Converted in 2003.
http://www.qorban.net/ - one of the best known Black Catholic Evangelists. Heard the pleasure of hearing evangelize and he can preach!


*Marcus Grodi* ----- Former Protestant Minister. 
http://www.marcusgrodi.com/ - he is the host of “The journey Home” on EWTN where he talks to converts and their conversion.



Some of my favourite places for inspiration, learning and truth are http://www.uCatholic.com/apologetics and
www.wordonfire.com – Fr. Robert Barron is always on point and has great spiritual knowledge

I have a God daughter who at 22 converted from Islam to Catholicism. Also my niece (35yrs) will become one on Easter Virgil (mass) when she receives her first Holy Communion and Confirmation.


----------



## auparavant

Question for the Converts:

Why did you convert to catholicism?

Tried RCIA 3 times, the last was a charm.  I figured, if it was good enough for my mother to convert, then I'd convert. Why wait any longer or search elsewhere?  I just put down spiritual roots and that was it.  Oh, I know Our Lady was helping me.     In essence, it was a calculated decision.  Put my kids in the cute little catholic school and it was history.


----------



## Rsgal

auparavant said:


> Question for the Converts:
> 
> Why did you convert to catholicism?
> 
> Tried RCIA 3 times, the last was a charm. I figured, if it was good enough for my mother to convert, then I'd convert. Why wait any longer or search elsewhere? I just put down spiritual roots and that was it. Oh, I know Our Lady was helping me.  In essence, it was a calculated decision. Put my kids in the cute little catholic school and it was history.


 
[USER] 
 auparavant
[/USER]

Thanks for your answer. I applaud you for your efforts. 3 times and you never gave up!. 
As support to my then 22yr God daughter, I attended RCIA with her and gained a ton of knowledge there. We had bible studies every Wednesday and class every Friday for 1 yr and I faithfully attended all of them. It was a great refresher for my faith.


----------



## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> This is a little bit of a sticking point for me: why do you have to go to confession for mortal sins?  Why can't those sins be absolved by simply asking God for forgiveness or the Confetior at mass?  I know you have to be in a state of grace to take communion but why do you need confession to be in a state of grace?



Mortal sin deprives your soul of sanctifying grace. An Act of Perfect Contrition can restore it, however in order to partake in Eucharist you must also make a sacramental confession.

Sometimes we die before making a sacramental confession, but an Act of Perfect Contrition would restore sanctifying grace. Here's a very good explanation of it below...

From the Confession Manual (Tan Books):

*Perfect Contrition 
*


_Perfect contrition is sorrow which proceeds from a pure or perfect love      of God, who is infinitely good and perfect in Himself and deserving of all      our love. It is sorrow for sin because sin displeases God._ Our Lord said:      “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy      whole soul, and with thy whole mind.” (Matt. 22:37). These words contain      the essence of perfect contrition, for as the Council of Trent declares, “Perfect      contrition is that which is conceived out of a motive of charity, namely,      the love of God as He is in Himself, or on account of His goodness.” 



*Effects of Perfect Contrition 
*

_Perfect contrition immediately cleanses the soul from all guilt of sin      and reconciles it to God, even apart from the Sacrament of Penance. Perfect      contrition always includes at least an implicit desire and intention to receive      the Sacrament of Penance, and the obligation to confess all mortal sins still      remains, even after one has made an act or acts of perfect contrition. _One      should note well that if one has committed a mortal sin, perfect contrition      alone without the Sacrament of Penance is not sufficient before receiving      Holy Communion. The person must first go to Sacramental Confession; otherwise,      he commits a mortal sin of sacrilege. 
   Perfect contrition is necessary as a means of salvation for dying sinners      (in the state of mortal sin) who have not received and cannot receive the      Sacrament of Baptism (*Salvation under these circumstances presumes the gift      of faith and Baptism of Desire. —Publisher, 2000) and for dying sinners      who, though baptized, cannot receive the Sacrament of Penance. Perfect contrition      is the last and only key to Heaven for sinners at the hour of death (be they      Catholic or non-Catholic) who cannot have recourse to the keys of mercy entrusted      by God to His priests in the Sacraments of Penance and Extreme Unction. 

----------------------
However, not going to Confession shouldn't be the norm. Since it is a sacrament, it is a visible sign of God's grace. The priest represents Christ and his audible absolution are the visible signs of God's forgiveness and grace. 

Here are some of the graces wrought through sacramental confession:

"It restores past merits, which are lost by even a single mortal sin. It renders      the soul capable again of performing acts meritorious of an eternal reward,      which is impossible while it is in the state of mortal sin. It confers sacramental      graces, that is, powerful supernatural helps to avoid sin in the future, and      to persevere in the service of God. It gives a claim to the special graces      the soul needs in order to lead a God-pleasing life. 
   Finally, it checks sinful passions and inclinations to evil." (Confession Manual)


----------



## JudithO

BTW.. A book that really helped me when I had a lot of "why do we do this" questions is called Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths... I recommend it and have given it out too...


----------



## Galadriel

*Re: Why Did You Convert?*

I LOVE Fr. Barron! 

In high school I would hang out with my (Catholic) best friend. I would start asking her questions because I knew nothing about Catholicism and thought it was just weird . She invited me to Mass, etc. and I started reading Catholic books from the library. One book in particular inspired me, "Modern Saints" by Ann Ball. It had a collection of saints' lives from the 20th century with their pictures included, and I was just awed by the holiness, the miracles, people like Padre Pio, and especially St. Bernadette the visionary of Lourdes. 

She died in 1879 yet here she is today:







I went to my friend one day and told her that I wanted to become a Catholic. She introduced me to the religious education teacher at the parish and I took RCIA classes. At 17, right before I left for college, I was baptized, confirmed, and received first communion. 

I attended a private Protestant university for college, so I definitely got a lot of challenges from hardcore Protestants (some of whom were graduate seminary students). It REALLY sharpened my faith and my study of Church history, theology, etc. My closest friends were non-denominational Christians and Anglicans . There are at least two guys I know of who ended up converting to Catholicism by the time I graduated.

I LOVE the Church and the Faith, and I'm so glad God led me here. 




Rsgal said:


> Question for the Converts:
> 
> Why did you convert to Catholicism?
> 
> As a cradle Catholic, I took a lot of things in the church for granted. My faith has tremendously grown in the last 10 years mainly because of influences from converts. Their dedication and enthusiasm has been such a blessing to me and helped me strength my faith.
> 
> Here are some of the Converts who are such an inspiration to me. I’ve read their books, followed on FB, their websites and heard their messages on TV.
> 
> *Dr. Scott Hahn-*----Presbyterian Minister. Converted in 1986.
> www.*scotthahn*.com/ - he (and his wife) is great public speaker and writer.
> 
> *Richard L Lane*. Former Lutheran. Converted in 2003.
> http://www.qorban.net/ - one of the best known Black Catholic Evangelists. Heard the pleasure of hearing evangelize and he can preach!
> 
> 
> *Marcus Grodi* ----- Former Protestant Minister.
> http://www.marcusgrodi.com/ - he is the host of “The journey Home” on EWTN where he talks to converts and their conversion.
> 
> 
> 
> Some of my favourite places for inspiration, learning and truth are http://www.uCatholic.com/apologetics and
> www.wordonfire.com – Fr. Robert Barron is always on point and has great spiritual knowledge
> 
> I have a God daughter who at 22 converted from Islam to Catholicism. Also my niece (35yrs) will become one on Easter Virgil (mass) when she receives her first Holy Communion and Confirmation.


----------



## Galadriel

judy4all said:


> BTW.. A book that really helped me when I had a lot of "why do we do this" questions is called Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths... I recommend it and have given it out too...



Thanks for the recommendation judy4all . It sounds like something I would love to pick up and start reading!


----------



## Galadriel

Ok, so the St. Bernadette pic got me inspired to post a few more:

Saint Josephine Bakhita! I love this woman! She's also one of the Incorruptibles . She cared for orphan children (Italy) and taught them about God.





My patron saint, Therese the Little Flower--she said "I want to spend my Heaven doing good upon earth." Ask her to pray for you. There are even non-Catholics who ask for her prayers.





Saint Padre Pio (another Incorruptible). He bore the Stigmata, if you went to Confession he'd be able to tell you everything you did, had visions, etc. and was a very holy priest. 





Saint Maximilian Kolbe (who I mentioned earlier). He hid Jews during the Nazi occupation of Poland and was thrown into a concentration camp. When one of the prisoners ran off and disappeared one day, the Nazis chose ten men to execute in order to deter any further escapes. Upon hearing a man cry, "My wife...my children...what will I do?" Max asked to take his place and explained "I am a priest. I am alone." They injected Max with carbolic acid. They man whose place he took ended up surviving the concentration camp and died in the 1990's. Max once said, "Still, I am ready to suffer more for Christ."





 I just love Gabriel Possenti because a bunch of criminals were setting his town on fire and looting, and he went down from his monastery to confront them. He saw the raiders dragging a girl who was crying for help...

Gabriel: Let her go

Raiders: What you say?

Gabriel: (pulls out a gun) Let her go.

Raiders: Whatever, monk...

Gabriel: **shoots a lizard with a single shot**

Raiders:  (they let the girl go)

Gabriel: Now put out the fire you caused, and get out of my town.

Raiders: (they put out the fire and are marched out of town by gunpoint)

He's the patron saint of gun owners


----------



## Galadriel

I understand a little better, thanks for taking the time to clarify . I agree that you can still be a good Catholic and be saved without asking for saints' prayers, but I definitely see it as a gift and source of great help in this journey while on earth. I also believe in asking God directly for forgiveness, and in praying to Him and growing in love and reverence for Him (otherwise, how can we have Contrition? And are we not supposed to speak with Jesus when we take Eucharist?).

I guess I see it in terms of God providing a great treasure of spiritual help and blessings along the way in this valley of tears--and why not make use of these gifts and sources of help? 




judy4all said:


> ^^Distracts.. is the wrong word... cos it implies that it takes away from Christ... So I'm sorry I used that word as that is not what I meant...
> 
> I don't think my post is contradictory.... E.g... I can ask a Saint to intercede on my behalf OR I, with the help of the Holy Spirit that dwells in me can go directly to Christ and ask for forgiveness myself.... While there is nothing wrong with the former, I do not *need* to do it when I can just do the latter. There is a different level of humility, trust, and accountability when you go directly to someone you hurt to ask for forgiveness vs asking someone to intercede on your behalf. I believe that the level of friendship and trust (and maybe it is psychological) that you develop when you always go to Christ directly for praise, forgiveness, and favors, is different from that you develop by going thru intercessors and that over time will help grow stronger and much closer to Christ cos you have the confidence to approach him knowing that he will listen. For me, intercessory prayers instilled fear *for* the lord in me... cos I was so afraid to go to him directly, and instead chose to go thru another route.
> 
> This is just an example where I find it good, but unnecessary....


----------



## auparavant

Rsgal said:


> [USER]
> auparavant
> [/USER]
> 
> Thanks for your answer. I applaud you for your efforts. 3 times and you never gave up!.
> As support to my then 22yr God daughter, I attended RCIA with her and gained a ton of knowledge there. We had bible studies every Wednesday and class every Friday for 1 yr and I faithfully attended all of them. It was a great refresher for my faith.




Rsgal

Oh no, that's how I ended up 3 times AHAHA.  I also walked away 2 years into my conversion and returned to the synagogue.    I tried to ignore Jesus but in the end, it didn't work.  I now know how to see Him and place Him and to those Jews who think I'm a traitor, I don't care.  I stand.  If you notice as well, I'm not one to kiss the hands of christians either, especially where there has been wrong done in history.  I just wanna the truth.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Galadriel said:


> I just love Gabriel Possenti because a bunch of criminals were setting his town on fire and looting, and he went down from his monastery to confront them. He saw the raiders dragging a girl who was crying for help...
> 
> Gabriel: Let her go
> 
> Raiders: What you say?
> 
> Gabriel: (pulls out a gun) Let her go.
> 
> Raiders: Whatever, monk...
> 
> Gabriel: **shoots a lizard with a single shot**
> 
> Raiders:  (they let the girl go)
> 
> Gabriel: Now put out the fire you caused, and get out of my town.
> 
> Raiders: (they put out the fire and are marched out of town by gunpoint)
> 
> He's the patron saint of gun owners



 Funny story.  But wait, why was there a gun in the monastery? LOL


----------



## Belle Du Jour

*Re: Why Did You Convert?*



Galadriel said:


> She died in 1879 yet here she is today:



I find the incorruptible thing very fascinating


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Who's your confirmation saint and why did you pick him/her?


----------



## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> Who's your confirmation saint and why did you pick him/her?



My confirmation saint is Therese. I chose her because I read Story of a Soul and loved it. I consider myself a student of the "Little Way." 

I also have a great love and appreciation for the Carmelite Order. I donate $$$ to the Carmelites, read the works of Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross, and I just started wearing the Brown Scapular.


----------



## auparavant

*Who's your confirmation saint and why did you pick him/her?*

My confirmation saint is the BVM because it's through her intercession that I'm in the Church.  She's protected me several times from harm and continues to do so.  I love her very much because she leads us to Jesus.  Jesus is a Jewish boy and you know how a Jewish boy loves his momma!


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Galadriel said:


> My confirmation saint is Therese. I chose her because I read Story of a Soul and loved it. I consider myself a student of the "Little Way."
> 
> I also have a great love and appreciation for the Carmelite Order. I donate $$$ to the Carmelites, read the works of Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross, and I just started wearing the Brown Scapular.



I haven't read Story of a Soul but I have heard a lot about St. Therese.  She's a popular saint  I also like St. Teresa of the Andes and I think she was a Carmelite as well.  So sad that a lot of these women died so young though.


----------



## Rsgal

Belle Du Jour said:


> Who's your confirmation saint and why did you pick him/her?


 
St. Elizabeth (Elisabeth), Cousin to the Blessed Mother and mother to John the Baptist.

I was in 7th grade when I received my confirmation and decided to chose Elizabeth as it was an easy name to write, pronunce and was common. I have one of the most unique first names out there and thus wanted something easy.


----------



## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> I haven't read Story of a Soul but I have heard a lot about St. Therese.  She's a popular saint  I also like St. Teresa of the Andes and I think she was a Carmelite as well.  So sad that a lot of these women died so young though.



I know! At the same time it's inspiring because it shows that you don't have to be elderly and white-haired to be a great saint . Some of the youngest saints I know of are St. Maria Goretti (d. age 12) and St. Dominic Savio (d. age 12/13).


----------



## Rsgal

> *Jesus is a Jewish boy and you know how a Jewish boy loves his momma!*


This made me cheese so hard... Love it!!


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Galadriel said:


> I know! At the same time it's inspiring because it shows that you don't have to be elderly and white-haired to be a great saint . Some of the youngest saints I know of are St. Maria Goretti (d. age 12) and St. Dominic Savio (d. age 12/13).



Reading Story of a Soul now.  It was FREE on Kindle.


----------



## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> Reading Story of a Soul now.  It was FREE on Kindle.



Thanks for the heads up!


----------



## Galadriel

The Catholic Answer

below is a blog post that I found interesting. It deals with the question of capitalism vs. socialism and which is better to support. The answer? Neither!

Believe it or not, there is actually a "Catholic answer," a third way-- *Distributism
*

Read more below:




As a Catholic, should I be Capitalist or Socialist?

Again, how about neither.  The irony about both systems is that they are really two different manifestations of the same problem.  That problem is ownership of property. * You see, under the Capitalist system, the majority of productive property ownership ultimately ends up in the hands of a few corporate bureaucrats.  Under Socialism, the majority of productive property ownership ultimately ends up in the hands of a few government bureaucrats.  

Neither system is just, and both systems concentrate productive property into the hands of just a few people.  *

The only real difference between the two systems is which people end up with the property.  Shall they be corporate bureaucrats (capitalism)?  Or shall they be government bureaucrats (socialism)?  The Catholic Church teaches that the only real solution to man's economic problems is the complete opposite of both systems.  

*This is manifested in the widespread natural distribution of productive property to as many people as possible.  By "property" one does not always mean land, though land is certainly included in that.  By "property" one can also mean shares in a business, stocks, cooperative ownership, and other things of productive value. *

This type of widespread distribution of property is called Distributism.  You see, property is power, and ownership of property gives one the necessary power to take control of one's own destiny.  

This is the beginning of economic social justice.  It is only upon this foundation that we can begin to build the other elements of economic social justice according to Catholic teaching.  So when it comes time to vote, we should vote for those politicians that promote small business over large business and government programs.  

*The ideal politician, from the Distributist mindset, would be one who promotes helping small businesses by eliminating unnecessary government regulations and simultaneously preventing large business from engaging in practices of monopoly and unfair competition.  *

Politicians should advocate strict enforcement of antitrust laws at both the federal and state level, as well as strict zoning laws for business size at the local level.  Politicians should also support a living wage, private cooperative ownership of large industry, and perhaps creating arbitration courts for labor and business that exist outside the political realm.  

Likewise, politicians should support the elimination of labor unions and replace them with the creation of guilds for various skilled workers of various types of industry.  However, they should mandate that such guilds have spiritual direction of some kind (chaplains) for moral purposes, and that they work for the common good of both employees and employers, seeing as the two are dependent upon each other. Again, non-political courts of arbitration would do much to expedite this process, and politicians should support that...

As a Catholic, should I support big government?

No, big government runs against the Catholic social teaching of subsidiarity, and subsidiarity is the "hinge" upon which all of Catholic social justice turns.  Catholic social doctrine supports decentralization (or downsizing) of big government bureaucracies.  
*
The principle of subsidiarity teaches that it is immoral for higher government to do the functions that can be easily carried out by lower government, the family or the individual. * 

Subsidiarity also teaches that higher government should always function in a subsidiary role to lower government.   Therefore, Catholics should support politicians who advocate "downsizing" or decentralizing big government in Washington DC, giving some of that power back to the states, families and individuals.  

So when a politician starts talking about his latest government "program" to solve all your woes, ask yourself if this is going to increase or decrease the size of government.  If the answer is "increase" the size of government, than the Catholic thing to do would be to vote against that politician and his big government program.  In the Catholic economy of politics, power should go directly to the people, as much as reasonably possible, while higher forms of government perform ONLY those functions the people, and lower forms of government, cannot perform on their own.


----------



## ktykaty

Galadriel said:


> The Catholic Answer
> 
> below is a blog post that I found interesting. It deals with the question of capitalism vs. socialism and which is better to support. The answer? Neither!
> 
> Believe it or not, there is actually a "Catholic answer," a third way-- *Distributism
> *
> 
> Read more below:
> 
> 
> As a Catholic, should I be Capitalist or Socialist?
> 
> Again, how about neither.   *....
> *


*        [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
Galadriel,

My first reaction when I read this was « I don't like it ». [/FONT] 


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I just read part of the COMPENDIUM OF THE SOCIAL DOCTRINE OF THE CHURCH and I really don't like this. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]It looks like the SDC, feels like it but that's not it.  It's impossible to truthfully present the catholic POW on social economic justice without using the words "common good".
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The RCC answer to man' s economic problems or questions is the Social Doctrine of the Church. The whole thing, not just part of it. 
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]For us catholics, the foundation of economic social justice is not distributism or « the widespread distribution of productive property » but *the principle of common good*. The RCC is not advocating « the widespread distribution of productive property » but we believe that « Each person must have access to the level of well-being necessary for his full development » (cf universal destination of goods and universal right to use the goods).[/FONT]


I'm still somewhat confused about this. The SDC is not my area of expertise. But I'll agree that the SDC is neither capitalism nor socialism. 

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]


----------



## Galadriel

ktykaty said:


> *        [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
> @Galadriel,
> 
> My first reaction when I read this was « I don't like it ». [/FONT]
> 
> 
> [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I just read part of the COMPENDIUM OF THE SOCIAL DOCTRINE OF THE CHURCH and I really don't like this. [/FONT]
> [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]It looks like the SDC, feels like it but that's not it.  It's impossible to truthfully present the catholic POW on social economic justice without using the words "common good".
> [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The RCC answer to man' s economic problems or questions is the Social Doctrine of the Church. The whole thing, not just part of it.
> [/FONT]
> [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]For us catholics, the foundation of economic social justice is not distributism or « the widespread distribution of productive property » but *the principle of common good*. The RCC is not advocating « the widespread distribution of productive property » but we believe that « Each person must have access to the level of well-being necessary for his full development » (cf universal destination of goods and universal right to use the goods).[/FONT]
> 
> 
> I'm still somewhat confused about this. The SDC is not my area of expertise. But I'll agree that the SDC is neither capitalism nor socialism.
> 
> [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
> [/FONT]



Thanks for sharing, ktykaty 

I'll pull up the SDC. 

Here's the LINK at the Vatican website (too much for one post), but you're right, it is centered on the "common good," and it extends beyond economics, but also knowledge, education, human rights, etc.

I find this very interesting . I agree with the principle of subsidiarity (a task should be performed by the most immediate person or authority) and distributism (examples: farmer markets, CSA, supporting small business, etc.).


----------



## laurend

I was raised Catholic but now agnostic but I will drop in from time to time also.  My parents and sisters still attend church.


----------



## Galadriel

laurend said:


> I was raised Catholic but now agnostic but I will drop in from time to time also.  My parents and sisters still attend church.



laurend glad you can stop by


----------



## Belle Du Jour

What are everyone's plans for Triduum?


----------



## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> What are everyone's plans for Triduum?



Liturgy (w/ veneration of the Cross), Good Friday liturgy (does your church do processions?), and we may do evening Mass on Holy Saturday b/c we're going to a relative's house Easter Sunday.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Galadriel said:


> Liturgy (w/ veneration of the Cross), Good Friday liturgy (does your church do processions?), and we may do evening Mass on Holy Saturday b/c we're going to a relative's house Easter Sunday.



I'm not sure what they do on Good Friday.  I know that on Holy Thursday, the Sacrament is taken down to the tabernacle in the crypt to symbolize (IIRC) Jesus in the tomb.  There's a procession for that and I plan to be there and stay for a little adoration.


----------



## Rsgal

Belle Du Jour said:


> What are everyone's plans for Triduum?


 
Mass on Holy Thursday. I will also attend the adoration. 

Good Friday there is the stations of the cross procession that is usually a major thing at my parish. As in parishoners participating, dressed in old roman costumes and all. It takes 1.5 hrs for the procession. The guy who plays Jesus's part has been growing his beard for the last 1 month. 

It's always a somber event that makes it even so real by participating.

If it's ok, I will post a couple of pictures tomorrow for ya'll to see.


----------



## Rsgal

Galadriel said:


> Liturgy (w/ veneration of the Cross), Good Friday liturgy (does your church do processions?), and we may do evening Mass on Holy Saturday b/c we're going to a relative's house Easter Sunday.


 
I was always taught that the Easter Virgil Mass was more important than the Easter Mass.

Anyone else?


----------



## JeterCrazed

How was everybody's Lent? 

Sent from my Inspire HD using LHCF


----------



## Galadriel

Rsgal said:


> I was always taught that the Easter Virgil Mass was more important than the Easter Mass.
> 
> Anyone else?



Haven't heard that, but Easter Vigil Mass holds a special place in my heart


----------



## Galadriel

JeterCrazed said:


> How was everybody's Lent?
> 
> Sent from my Inspire HD using LHCF



JeterCrazed it was amazing, just what I needed to get refreshed and refocused. I studied Scripture, prayed, did devotions, and went to Confession.

Why, oh why did I give up chocolate for Lent???? I can't WAIT until Easter Sunday .


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Hope everyone had a blessed Easter.  The vigil and service today were an absolute tribute to the triumph and majesty of Christ!


----------



## JeterCrazed

[USER=28031]Galadriel[/USER] said:
			
		

> JeterCrazed it was amazing, just what I needed to get refreshed and refocused. I studied Scripture, prayed, did devotions, and went to Confession.
> 
> Wy, oh why did I give up chocolate for Lent???? I can't WAIT until Easter Sunday .



I did exceptionally well. No clothes, shoes, watches or earrings. Handbags was on a trial bases, but I bought none. Traditional fasting was making me fat  So I went on a diet and lost the fasting weight and a few more lbs. 

Sent from my Inspire HD using LHCF


----------



## SweetSimplicity

JeterCrazed said:


> How was everybody's Lent?
> 
> Sent from my Inspire HD using LHCF



I observed lent this year even though I'm not Catholic and none of the churches I've ever gone to observe it.  It was great.  I was able to focus more on Jesus.  Setting aside more time in bible study, devotions, fasting and prayer.  I plan to make fasting a more regular part of my life.

I really enjoyed watching the  different Holy week Masses on EWTN.  Very beautiful.


----------



## JeterCrazed

naturalmermaid said:
			
		

> I observed lent this year even though I'm not Catholic and none of the churches I've ever gone to observe it.  It was great.  I was able to focus more on Jesus.  Setting aside more time in bible study, devotions, fasting and prayer.  I plan to make fasting a more regular part of my life.
> 
> I really enjoyed watching the  different Holy week Masses on EWTN.  Very beautiful.



Ditto. I'm not Catholic, either 

Sent from my Inspire HD using LHCF


----------



## Belle Du Jour

AWESOME video about Mary as the New Eve/Ark of the Covenant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUdYeYy3NQA&feature=player_embedded


----------



## Rsgal

naturalmermaid said:


> I observed lent this year even though I'm not Catholic and none of the churches I've ever gone to observe it. It was great. I was able to focus more on Jesus. Setting aside more time in bible study, devotions, fasting and prayer. I plan to make fasting a more regular part of my life.
> 
> I really enjoyed watching the different Holy week Masses on EWTN. Very beautiful.


 


JeterCrazed said:


> Ditto. I'm not Catholic, either


 
@naturalmermaid and @JeterCrazed I think its a good thing that you got to experience the Lenten Season. I have a couple of non Catholic friends who belong to a Baptist Church that encouraged its members to observe Lent. Some members agreed to do so and some adamantly resisted. (My friends observed it by praying and fasting. I went with them for the Stations of the Cross on 2 fridays).

This had me researching on this new trend where non apostolic churches are slowly adapting to practicing Lent. 

Below is from some church's website taking about Lent.

http://www.walkingtogetherministrie...8/Should-Baptist-Christians-Observe-Lent.aspx

_"Last Sunday I mentioned to Central Baptist Church that this Wednesday, Ash Wednesday, marked the beginning of Lent. I mentioned that we Baptists have traditionally observed portions of the Christian calendar while ignoring or rejecting other portions, but that there may be good reasons to observe some portions we have traditionally neglected._


_Over the last couple of days, I've received comments ranging from appreciation, to curiosity, to questioning of Lent and my mentioning it from the pulpit. So I thought I might just share a few thoughts on the question of whether or not Baptists should observe Lent. In no particular order:_

_The short answer: "Yes" if you find it helpful. "No" if you don't. _

_It is true that we do not find the observance of Lent in the New Testament, but neither do we find the observance of Christmas or one special annual day for Easter (every Sunday was an observance of Easter for the early believers!). _

_Concern is occasionally raised because Lent seems to be a Catholic observance. Sure enough, Catholics observe Lent, but so do and so have many Protestants, albeit moreso in the Magesterial Protestant tradition. (Catholics also, by the way, observe Easter and Christmas, days I'd like to keep around!) _

_It is curious to me that Baptist Christians have more interest in the secular and political calendar than in the historic Christian calendar. For instance, where in the New Testament do we see the early church observing something like Mother's Day, Father's Day, Veteran's Day? _

_Sure, the liturgical calendar presents us with very interesting symbols that we do not see specifically in the Bible. Tomorrow many Christians will be marked on the forehead with ashes for Ash Wednesday. But why, praytell, does this raise eyebrows (when, at least, it has some biblical founding - ashes as a sign of humility and repentance) when our wholesale embrace of clearly non-biblical (not un-biblical, just non-biblical) symbols does not? I speak, for instance, of the following symbols we embrace: the American flag, the Christian flag, the iconic symbol of the cross, the symbol of the fish. Moreso, we embrace culturally-defined symbols all the time: wedding bands, sports symbols, the favorite chants, cheers, dances, motions of our favorite teams, etc. _

_View Lent as a running start to jump into Easter, if that helps. _

_*The greatest irony in all of this is the current fad of observing "40 Days of _____" (fill-in-the-blank: Purpose, Prayer, Stewardship, etc.) in Baptist churches. I mean, if we can observe 40 Days of Purpose for Rick Warren why can't we observe the season of Lent, which has a grander historical pedigree, is, I dare say, even more biblically robust (NO knock on Rick Warren intended!), and has been a useful tool for Christians all over the world through the ages? I'll wager my left leg that if LifeWay took Lent, renamed it, put in a package, called it "40 Days of Repentance and Reflection", and created a Leader's Guide and student workbook, Baptists would gobble it up in droves, wear the pre-printed t-shirts, armbands, headbands, etc. Meaning, if we can observe 40 days of kitsch, we can certainly observe 40 days of Lent. *_

_NONE of this is to say you should or must observe Lent or you're wrong if you don't. Again, if you find it helpful, do so. If you don't, don't. But it's something to consider. _

_Just thinking aloud..." _
_******TAKE SOME TIME TO READ THE COMMENTS.,,they are interesting******    *_



_*I  at the bolded because it is soo true!*_


----------



## JeterCrazed

The only thing I don't do is Ash my forehead. Jesus said that we don't need everybody to know we're fasting and look "dismal like the pagans," so I omit that ritual. 

But why, Rsgal, do your friends adamantly resist? I don't understand.

Sent from my Inspire HD using LHCF


----------



## Rsgal

JeterCrazed said:


> The only thing I don't do is Ash my forehead. Jesus said that we don't need everybody to know we're fasting and look "dismal like the pagans," so I omit that ritual.
> 
> But why, Rsgal, do your friends adamantly resist? I don't understand.
> 
> Sent from my Inspire HD using LHCF



JeterCrazed, I wrote that some members of my friends church refused to participate in the observance. From what they told me, I gathered its because like many, they think that is this Catholic thing, yet the Episcopals, Methodists, Presbyterians and Lutherans among others observe it too.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

The list on books I need/plan to read is growing exponentially 

I just came across No Price to High: A Pentecostal Preacher Becomes Catholic.  Anyone read this one?  It's about a black pentecostal pastor who starts researching worship styles and tries to model his service after the way early Christians worshiped.  Lo and behold, it looked eerily similar to Catholicism.   So he left his church and took about 50 people in his congregation with him.  Oh, and because he was married, he became a deacon, not a priest.

I also want to read Rome Sweet Home.  I also received Life of Christ for Easter.   So much to read and so little time!


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Rsgal said:


> [*]_*The greatest irony in all of this is the current fad of observing "40 Days of _____" (fill-in-the-blank: Purpose, Prayer, Stewardship, etc.) in Baptist churches. I mean, if we can observe 40 Days of Purpose for Rick Warren why can't we observe the season of Lent, which has a grander historical pedigree, is, I dare say, even more biblically robust (NO knock on Rick Warren intended!), and has been a useful tool for Christians all over the world through the ages? I'll wager my left leg that if LifeWay took Lent, renamed it, put in a package, called it "40 Days of Repentance and Reflection", and created a Leader's Guide and student workbook, Baptists would gobble it up in droves, wear the pre-printed t-shirts, armbands, headbands, etc. Meaning, if we can observe 40 days of kitsch, we can certainly observe 40 days of Lent. *_



This is SO true!  If Joel Osteen said it, people would be all over it lol.  So sad people see something associated with Catholicism and automatically shut down.


----------



## OhmyKimB

JeterCrazed said:
			
		

> Ditto. I'm not Catholic, either
> 
> Sent from my Inspire HD using LHCF



I'm  not Catholic but I've always been taught to observe lent. I didn't realize ppl assumed that was something Catholic

Sent from my Mom's iPad using LHCF


----------



## JeterCrazed

Belle Du Jour said:
			
		

> This is SO true!  If Joel Osteen said it, people would be all over it lol.  So sad people see something associated with Catholicism and automatically shut down.



Is the "Lawd" gif allowed in the Christian forum? 

Sent from my Inspire HD using LHCF


----------



## SweetSimplicity

Rsgal said:


> @naturalmermaid and @JeterCrazed I think its a good thing that you got to experience the Lenten Season. I have a couple of non Catholic friends who belong to a Baptist Church that encouraged its members to observe Lent. Some members agreed to do so and some adamantly resisted. (My friends observed it by praying and fasting. I went with them for the Stations of the Cross on 2 fridays).
> 
> This had me researching on this new trend where non apostolic churches are slowly adapting to practicing Lent.
> 
> Below is from some church's website taking about Lent.
> 
> http://www.walkingtogetherministrie...8/Should-Baptist-Christians-Observe-Lent.aspx
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Sure, the liturgical calendar presents us with very interesting symbols that we do not see specifically in the Bible. Tomorrow many Christians will be marked on the forehead with ashes for Ash Wednesday. But why, praytell, does this raise eyebrows (when, at least, it has some biblical founding - ashes as a sign of humility and repentance) when our wholesale embrace of clearly non-biblical (not un-biblical, just non-biblical) symbols does not? I speak, for instance, of the following symbols we embrace: the American flag, the Christian flag, the iconic symbol of the cross, the symbol of the fish. Moreso, we embrace culturally-defined symbols all the time: wedding bands, sports symbols, the favorite chants, cheers, dances, motions of our favorite teams, etc. _
> 
> 
> _View Lent as a running start to jump into Easter, if that helps. _
> 
> 
> _*The greatest irony in all of this is the current fad of observing "40 Days of _____" (fill-in-the-blank: Purpose, Prayer, Stewardship, etc.) in Baptist churches. I mean, if we can observe 40 Days of Purpose for Rick Warren why can't we observe the season of Lent, which has a grander historical pedigree, is, I dare say, even more biblically robust (NO knock on Rick Warren intended!), and has been a useful tool for Christians all over the world through the ages? I'll wager my left leg that if LifeWay took Lent, renamed it, put in a package, called it "40 Days of Repentance and Reflection", and created a Leader's Guide and student workbook, Baptists would gobble it up in droves, wear the pre-printed t-shirts, armbands, headbands, etc. Meaning, if we can observe 40 days of kitsch, we can certainly observe 40 days of Lent. *_
> 
> 
> _NONE of this is to say you should or must observe Lent or you're wrong if you don't. Again, if you find it helpful, do so. If you don't, don't. But it's something to consider. _
> 
> 
> _Just thinking aloud..." _
> _******TAKE SOME TIME TO READ THE COMMENTS.,,they are interesting******    *_
> 
> 
> 
> _*I  at the bolded because it is soo true!*_



Thank you for this.  

I agree with everything the writer wrote.  I don't see anything wrong with observing certain times/traditions/holidays as long as I am doing it to honor Christ.  I like having special days where we can unite as believers to remember the events in the  life and death of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 

Jesus fasted for 40 days.  Why can't we if we choose?


----------



## JeterCrazed

naturalmermaid said:
			
		

> Jesus fasted for 40 days.  Why can't we if we choose?



Let the church say, "Amen." 
I don't care what your beliefs are- Atheist or Zoroastrian. Everyone should strive to be more like Jesus and if he can resist the Devil making rocks into hot, buttered rolls in the desert, I'll be aiight.

Sent from my Inspire HD using LHCF


----------



## Rsgal

Belle Du Jour said:


> The list on books I need/plan to read is growing exponentially
> 
> I just came across No Price to High: A Pentecostal Preacher Becomes Catholic.  Anyone read this one?  It's about a black pentecostal pastor who starts researching worship styles and tries to model his service after the way early Christians worshiped.  Lo and behold, it looked eerily similar to Catholicism.   So he left his church and took about 50 people in his congregation with him.  Oh, and because he was married, he became a deacon, not a priest.



Thanks for posting this. Will have to look for it. (Will post my review are reading it.)


----------



## ktykaty

Today is april 17 and we are remembering the Blessed Kateri Tekakwitha.

I googled her, read the wiki page and all that. 
Does anyone knows anything about her ? 

auparavant do you know her ?


----------



## Galadriel

ktykaty said:


> Today is april 17 and we are remembering the Blessed Kateri Tekakwitha.
> 
> I googled her, read the wiki page and all that.
> Does anyone knows anything about her ?
> 
> @auparavant do you know her ?




I've read of her. She has a very inspiring story. I think Kateri is canonized now (or will be this year). I wish I could go to Rome to see it. 

Blessed Kateri Tekakwitha, pray for us.


----------



## auparavant

ktykaty said:


> Today is april 17 and we are remembering the Blessed Kateri Tekakwitha.
> 
> I googled her, read the wiki page and all that.
> Does anyone knows anything about her ?
> 
> auparavant do you know her ?




Yes, Mohawk.  She's one of my saints and actually answered one of my prayers with 2 white plumes.    I go to her many times.


----------



## aribell

How do you all feel about the recent issue with the nuns?


----------



## Rsgal

*ANIMA CHRISTI. (another favourite prayer of mine)*


Soul of Christ, sanctify me.
Body of Christ, save me.
Blood of Christ, inebriate me.
Water from the side of Christ, wash me.
Passion of Christ, strengthen me.
O Good Jesus, hear me.
Within Thy wounds hide me.
Suffer me not to be separated from thee.
From the malignant enemy defend me.
In the hour of my death call me.
And bid me come unto Thee,
That with all Thy saints,
I may praise thee
Forever and ever.
*Amen.*


----------



## Belle Du Jour

nicola.kirwan said:


> How do you all feel about the recent issue with the nuns?



It bothered me to be honest.  Nuns do so much behind the scenes.  The public reprimand bothered me.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

So May is a month to honor/celebrate Mary.  What are you doing this month?


----------



## auparavant

Nuns?  They received their proper reprimand.  I say, follow the bishops, as this is the appropriate decorum.  The great falling away...either submit to Christ or find your merry way elsewhere.  They cannot force such a change mandated by Christ Himself on His Church.


----------



## Rsgal

Belle Du Jour said:


> So May is a month to honor/celebrate Mary. What are you doing this month?


 
Just seeing this now when May is almost over. (shame on me... )

*Praying the Rosary more.*


----------



## Rsgal

I won't be near the internet this weekend, so i'll drop this off now.

*HAPPY PENTECOST SUNDAY TO YOU ALL*

Anyone being confirmed this Sunday? 

Sunday: Pentecost Sunday
Date: May 27, 2012
Year: B

The readings: [Acts 2:1-11; 1 Cor. 12:3b-7, 12-13 (Or Gal. 5:16-25); Jn. 20:19-23]

The message: As the Father has sent me, so I send you.

Today, we are celebrating Pentecost Sunday. Some of you may ask yourselves, "What is the origin of Pentecost in the Catholic Church?" According to the New Catholic Dictionary of 1929, the word Pentecost is Greek for "pentecostes" which means "fiftieth." This feast "commemorates the descent of the Holy Ghost upon the Apostles, and takes its name from the fact that it comes nearly fifty days after Easter. It was a Jewish festival, and has been observed in the Christian Church since the days of the apostles. It is often called Whitsunday (White Sunday) from the practise of giving solemn Baptism on that day in early centuries, the candidates being attired in white baptismal robes."

Today's three readings made reference to the arrival of the Holy Spirit, being baptized in the Spirit and being sent forth to proclaim the Word of God so others may convert to the living faith.

The arrival of the Holy Spirit was affirmed in the First Reading [Acts 2:1-11] when we heard, "All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other languages. Being baptized in the Spirit was affirmed in the Second Reading [1 Cor. 12:3b-7, 12- 13] when it was said, "In the one Spirit we were all baptized into one body." And being sent to proclaim the Word of God was affirmed in the Gospel Reading [Jn. 20:19-23] when we heard, "As the Father has sent me, so I send you." These three passages are the gist of today's homily.

While preparing my homily, I was guided by the Spirit to review what the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches about Pentecost in relationship to the Church. Today, I would like to share with you some of those teachings.

"The prophetic texts that directly concern the sending of the Holy Spirit are oracles by which God speaks to the heart of his people in the language of the promise, with the accents of "love and fidelity." [Ezek 11:19; 36:25-28; 37:1-14; Jer 31:31-34; and cf. Joel 3:1-5] St. Peter proclaimed their fulfillment on the morning of Pentecost. [Acts 2:17-21] According to these promises, at the 'end time' the Lord's Spirit will renew the hearts of men, engraving a new law in them. He will gather and reconcile the scattered and divided peoples; he will transform the first creation, and God will dwell there with men in peace." (C.C.C. # 715)

"On the day of Pentecost when the seven weeks of Easter had come to an end, Christ's Passover was fulfilled in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, manifested, given, and communicated as a divine person: of his fullness, Christ, the Lord, poured out the Spirit in abundance." [Acts 2:33-36] (C.C.C. # 731)

"'When the work which the Father gave the Son to do on earth was accomplished, the Holy Spirit was sent on the day of Pentecost in order that he might continually sanctify the Church.' [LG 4; Cf. Jn 17:4] Then 'the Church was openly displayed to the crowds and the spread of the Gospel among the nations, through preaching, was begun.' [AG 4] As the 'convocation' of all men for salvation, the Church in her very nature is missionary, sent by Christ to all the nations to make disciples of them." [Mt 28:19-20; AG 2; 5-6] (C.C.C. # 767)

"The Church was made manifest to the world on the day of Pentecost by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. [SC 6; LG 2] The gift of the Spirit ushers in a new era in the 'dispensation of the mystery' the age of the Church, during which Christ manifests, makes present, and communicates his work of salvation through the liturgy of his Church, 'until he comes.' [1 Cor 11:26] In this age of the Church Christ now lives and acts in and with his Church, in a new way appropriate to this new age. He acts through the sacraments in what the common Tradition of the East and the West calls 'the sacramental economy'; this is the communication (or 'dispensation') of the fruits of Christ's Paschal mystery in the celebration of the Church's 'sacramental" liturgy.'" (C.C.C. # 1076)

"Since Pentecost, it is through the sacramental signs of his Church that the Holy Spirit carries on the work of sanctification. The sacraments of the Church do not abolish but purify and integrate all the richness of the signs and symbols of the cosmos and of social life. Further, they fulfill the types and figures of the Old Covenant, signify and make actively present the salvation wrought by Christ, and prefigure and anticipate the glory of heaven." (C.C.C. # 1152)

"From the very day of Pentecost the Church has celebrated and administered holy Baptism. Indeed St. Peter declares to the crowd astounded by his preaching: 'Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.' [Acts 2:38] The apostles and their collaborators offer Baptism to anyone who believed in Jesus: Jews, the God-fearing, pagans. [Cf. Acts 2:41; 8:12-13; 10:48; 16:15] Always, Baptism is seen as connected with faith: 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household,' St. Paul declared to his jailer in Philippi. And the narrative continues, the jailer 'was baptized at once, with all his family.'" [Acts 16:31-33] (C.C.C. # 1226)

"According to the Apostle Paul, the believer enters through Baptism into communion with Christ's death, is buried with him, and rises with him: Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. [Rom 6:3-4; cf. Col 2:12] The baptized have 'put on Christ.' [Gal 3:27] Through the Holy Spirit, Baptism is a bath that purifies, justifies, and sanctifies." [CE 1 Cor 6:11; 12:13] (C.C.C. # 1227)

"Hence Baptism is a bath of water in which the 'imperishable seed' of the Word of God produces its life-giving effect. [1 Pet 1:23; cf. Eph 5:26] St. Augustine says of Baptism: 'The word is brought to the material element, and it becomes a sacrament.'" [St. Augustine, In Jo. ev. 80, 3: PL 35, 1840] (C.C.C. # 1228)

"This fullness of the Spirit was not to remain uniquely the Messiah's, but was to be communicated to the whole messianic people. [Ezek 36:25-27; Joel 3:1-2] On several occasions Christ promised this outpouring of the Spirit, [Lk 12:12; Jn 3:5-8; 7:37-39; 16:7-15; Acts 1:8] a promise which he fulfilled first on Easter Sunday and then more strikingly at Pentecost. [Jn 20:22; Acts 2:1-14] Filled with the Holy Spirit the apostles began to proclaim "the mighty works of God," and Peter declared this outpouring of the Spirit to be the sign of the messianic age. [Acts 2:11; Cf. 2:17-18] Those who believed in the apostolic preaching and were baptized received the gift of the Holy Spirit in their turn." [Acts 2:38] (C.C.C.# 1287)

"From that time on the apostles, in fulfillment of Christ's will, imparted to the newly baptized by the laying on of hands the gift of the Spirit that completes the grace of Baptism. For this reason in the Letter to the Hebrews the doctrine concerning Baptism and the laying on of hands is listed among the first elements of Christian instruction. The imposition of hands is rightly recognized by the Catholic tradition as the origin of the sacrament of Confirmation, which in a certain way perpetuates the grace of Pentecost in the Church." [Paul VI, Divinae consortium naturae, 659; Cf. Acts 8:15-17; 19:5-6; Heb 6:2] (C.C.C. # 1288)

_(cont'd)_


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## Rsgal

..................

"It is evident from its celebration that the effect of the sacrament of Confirmation is the full outpouring of the Holy Spirit as once granted to the apostles on the day of Pentecost." (C.C.C. # 1302)

"From this fact, Confirmation brings an increase and deepening of baptismal grace:

- it roots us more deeply in the divine filiation which makes us cry, 'Abba! Father!'; [Rom 8:15]

- it unites us more firmly to Christ;

- it increases the gifts of the Holy Spirit in us;

- it renders our bond with the Church more perfect; [LG 11] 

- it gives us a special strength of the Holy Spirit to spread and defend the faith by word and action as true witnesses of Christ, to confess the name of Christ boldly, and never to be ashamed of the Cross: [Council Of Florence (1439) DS 1319; LG 11; 12]

Recall then that you have received the spiritual seal, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of right judgment and courage, the spirit of knowledge and reverence, the spirit of holy fear in God's presence. Guard what you have received. God the Father has marked you with his sign; Christ the Lord has confirmed you and has placed his pledge, the Spirit, in your hearts." [SL Ambrose, De myst. 7, 42 PL 16, 402-403] (C.C.C. # 1303)

"Like Baptism which it completes, Confirmation is given only once, for it too imprints on the soul an indelible spiritual mark, the 'character,' which is the sign that Jesus Christ has marked a Christian with the seal of his Spirit by clothing him with power from on high so that he may be his witness." [Council Of Trent (1547) DS 1609; Lk 24:48-49] (C.C.C. # 1304)

"This 'character' perfects the common priesthood of the faithful, received in Baptism, and 'the confirmed person receives the power to profess faith in Christ publicly and as it were officially (quasi ex officio).'" [St. Thomas Aquinas, STh III, 72, 5, ad 2] (C.C.C. # 1305)

Finally, "In the Lord's Prayer, 'thy kingdom come' refers primarily to the final coming of the reign of God through Christ's return. [Titus 2:13] But, far from distracting the Church from her mission in this present world, this desire commits her to it all the more strongly. Since Pentecost, the coming of that Reign is the work of the Spirit of the Lord who 'complete his work on earth and brings us the fullness of grace.'" [Roman Missal, Eucharistic Prayer IV, 118] (C.C.C. # 2818)

*Copyright © Catholic Doors Ministry*


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## Galadriel

nicola.kirwan said:


> How do you all feel about the recent issue with the nuns?



If you're referring to the National Conference of Women Religious (I think that's it?), I say about time! I'm all for being active in the Church and ministering to people, but they often crossed the line by teaching or holding positions that contradict Scripture and Catholic dogma and moral teaching. I'm not surprised that their numbers are actually dwindling and the more traditional religious organizations (that are actually faithful to the Church and her teachings) are rising.


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## Begoody

Wow, I had no idea there was a Catholic thread, I have actually only been in the Christian forum probably 3 times since I joined LHCF, shameful really. Although I was born and raised and remain a practicing Catholic, in the last year or so I realised that I actually know very little about the core tenets of my faith.
A question I would like to ask...May is the month of the Rosary, and I try to my rosary daily anyway regardless of the month,but for May I wanted to include my 6 year old in the daily recitation. The thing is I just make her say one decade, and then she concludes with her usual night prayers...she doesn't end with "Hail holy Queen" etc. Is this a half measure??? It's just that I have usually said my own 5 decades early in the morning, so I say just 1 decade together with her before bedtime because I feel at 6 she is too young( and too sleepy) to go through the entire Rosary. As a child though, every May and Oct, my mum would round us up and we had participate through the entire Rosary, irrespective of age,including the long Litany at the end!!! It's a fond memory now, but at the time I just wanted to escape and watch tv.


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## auparavant

^^^Galadriel will probably know.  I admit I don't say the rosary with any regularity.  I can imagine Our Lady saying..."please say it!"  LOL.  But I tend to do the Chapelet of Divine Mercy more often.  HHQ, it's usually included but I don't think it's considered 1/ an effort.  I don't know because were taught to follow each decade with "Jesus and Mary, we love you, save souls" and then the final HHQ.


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## Belle Du Jour

Begoody said:


> Wow, I had no idea there was a Catholic thread, I have actually only been in the Christian forum probably 3 times since I joined LHCF, shameful really. A*lthough I was born and raised and remain a practicing Catholic, in the last year or so I realised that I actually know very little about the core tenets of my faith.*
> A question I would like to ask...May is the month of the Rosary, and I try to my rosary daily anyway regardless of the month,but for May I wanted to include my 6 year old in the daily recitation. The thing is I just make her say one decade, and then she concludes with her usual night prayers...she doesn't end with "Hail holy Queen" etc. Is this a half measure??? It's just that I have usually said my own 5 decades early in the morning, so I say just 1 decade together with her before bedtime because I feel at 6 she is too young( and too sleepy) to go through the entire Rosary. As a child though, every May and Oct, my mum would round us up and we had participate through the entire Rosary, irrespective of age,including the long Litany at the end!!! It's a fond memory now, but at the time I just wanted to escape and watch tv.



I HIGHLY recommend Catholicism for Dummies.  It is well written and very easy to read.  IMO, it should be given to candidates/catechumens in RCIA because the catechism is daunting and not so easy to read. . .


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## Belle Du Jour

Good websites about the Rosary:
http://www.rosary-center.org/nroscon.htm
http://www.theholyrosary.org/

I really enjoyed the Mary, Undoer of Knots novena that you do with the rosary.


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## Belle Du Jour

I read the story of Tobias last night.  What an awesome story!  I love it when the angel Raphel says "your spouse was set apart for you before the world existed. . .It has been decided in heaven that she be given to you!" and "it was I who presented the record of your prayer before the Glory of the Lord. . .I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who stand and serve before the Glory of the Lord."  Revelation also mentions the 7 spirits before the throne of God which corroborates what Raphael said.  

This was just a great confirmation for me that 
-God can be a matchmaker 
-the saints and angels help carry our requests before God


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## Galadriel

Begoody said:


> Wow, I had no idea there was a Catholic thread, I have actually only been in the Christian forum probably 3 times since I joined LHCF, shameful really. Although I was born and raised and remain a practicing Catholic, in the last year or so I realised that I actually know very little about the core tenets of my faith.
> A question I would like to ask...May is the month of the Rosary, and I try to my rosary daily anyway regardless of the month,but for May I wanted to include my 6 year old in the daily recitation. The thing is I just make her say one decade, and then she concludes with her usual night prayers...she doesn't end with "Hail holy Queen" etc. Is this a half measure??? It's just that I have usually said my own 5 decades early in the morning, so I say just 1 decade together with her before bedtime because I feel at 6 she is too young( and too sleepy) to go through the entire Rosary. As a child though, every May and Oct, my mum would round us up and we had participate through the entire Rosary, irrespective of age,including the long Litany at the end!!! It's a fond memory now, but at the time I just wanted to escape and watch tv.



Begoody, I think your 6 y.o is doing very well . Perhaps you can start adding on the Hail Holy Queen after her decade on Saturdays and then increase from there.


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## Belle Du Jour

How was everyone's Corpus Christi?  It was awesome at my parish: after Mass, there was a procession of the blessed sacrament around the block while we sang/hum O Salutaris Hostia.  Then we had benediction.  I wish adoration was available (like on Holy Thursday) but that's okay.  It was a great witness to the world.


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## Belle Du Jour

How do you meet people in your parish?  We get a lot of visitors at my church although I'm starting to recognize the regulars like myself.  However, there doesn't seem to be a lot of time to socialize.  There's a young black woman I see come into church for Mass, but I never got a chance to say hello after service is over.  There are a few black families I see every Sunday too.


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## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> How do you meet people in your parish?  We get a lot of visitors at my church although I'm starting to recognize the regulars like myself.  However, there doesn't seem to be a lot of time to socialize.  There's a young black woman I see come into church for Mass, but I never got a chance to say hello after service is over.  There are a few black families I see every Sunday too.



If I don't get a chance to chat with them before/after Mass, then another opportunity could be parish events and ministries . For example, every Lent we have "Fish Fry Fridays" that bring out large group of us.


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## auparavant

Communion of the Saints:

http://www.ourcatholicprayers.com/prayers-to-saints.html

*PRAYERS TO SAINTS: 
FOR HEAVENLY HELP FROM
GOD'S MOST GRACIOUS ADVOCATES*




​

Some people ask “why say prayers to saints? Shouldn’t all our prayers be to God?” Praying to the saints_ is_ praying to God, in a fundamental way. We're praying to those who can ask God to help us in our various needs_ in accordance with His will._
When you ask someone to pray for you are you worshiping that person? Of course not! It’s the same when we ask the saints to pray for us! In our prayers to saints we ask them to “put in a good word” for us with God in Heaven. _They_ are not the focus of our worship, _God_ is.
In this regard, it is worth noting that many compilations of prayers _to_saints also include prayers _by_ them as well, to our Lord. The important thing to remember is that all these prayers have the same Divine destination, for our salvation.
The authors of the Vatican II document _Lumen Gentium_ (“light of the nations”) noted that it was important that we “suppliantly invoke" the saints and "have recourse to their prayers, their power and help in obtaining benefits from God through His Son, Jesus Christ, who is our Redeemer and Saviour."
For example, in one well known prayer to St. Joseph we ask him to
“assist me by your powerful intercession and obtain for me from your
divine Son all spiritual blessings through Jesus Christ, Our Lord.”






In the saints we have as advocates members of what is called the Church triumphant (those already in heaven.) We on earth are part of the Church militant.
In addition, with the Church suffering (those in purgatory) we all make up what is known as the Communion of Saints, part of one glorious mystical body of Christ in His Church. We are truly all in this together!
Note that the saints had their weaknesses and struggles just we do. But they also had a tremendous devotion to God. They became canonized (that is to say, officially recognized) as Catholic Saints after their deaths. This was usually done after a lengthy review of both the holiness of their lives and miracles associated with them.
What is comforting is that with the saints we have so many members of our Church in heaven to look out for us! Do you ever feel some days like you need all the help you can get? You can ask one of many patron saints for their assistance. They’ve been “put in charge” of various causes, occupations, (and even countries!), though popular traditions or by the Church. These saints are considered our protectors as well as our intercessors.



St. Patrick is the patron Saint of Ireland, for example, and people get their throats blessed on the feast day of St. Blase. (Just as a reminder, a feast day in the Catholic Church is a day to give special honor, that is to say recognition, to God, saints, doctrines, or sacred events.)
Many saints are patrons of more than one occupation or cause, such as St. Joseph, who, besides being a Universal Patron of the Church is also considered a patron saint of fathers, carpenters, and social justice. St. Therese of Lisieux, the "Little Flower," is patron saint not only of florists but also of missions as well.
The Blessed Virgin Mary is also considered a patron saint and has been given quite a few names as one, including many for places she has appeared (as in Our Lady of Fatima, Our Lady of Lourdes, and Our Lady
of Guadalupe).
Many prayers to saints take these “patrons” into account. For example, people pray to St. Anthony for lost items; to St. Jude (or perhaps St. Rita)for lost causes; to St. Gerard for motherhood; to St. Peregine for Cancer victims; and to St. Dymphna for those with mental or nervous disorders, or epilepsy. For many years the prayer to St. Michael the Archangel was included at the end of Mass for his help in defeating Satan.
Keep in mind that God also calls on_ us _to be saints. If this seems like too tall an order, remember that, with God’s help we can live our lives reflecting His love and goodness, letting Him work through us, just like the saints!
As we read in the wonderful prayer of St. Francis “Lord make me an instrument of your peace…grant that I may not so much seek to be loved as to love.” Just ask for God's help in prayer. Remember, He’s an important part of your prayers to saints as well.


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## auparavant

Catechism Online:

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm



Daily Mass Readings and Liturgy:


http://www.catholictide.com/03/


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## Rsgal

Great Thread


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## Rsgal

*Do Catholics Worship the Saints?

*“Pray” for non-Catholics is synonymous with worship. 

But, not all prayer is worship. 

There are four types of prayer: 
1) Worship 
2) Thanksgiving 
3) Petition and 
4) Intercession. 

The original meaning and use ...of the word “Pray” is to “petition” or “ask.” 

The practice of petitioning Saints or Mary dates to the earliest days of Christianity and is shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Anglicans—meaning that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the Christians on earth—It has only been with the advent of Protestantism (500 years old or less) that anyone has questioned the use of this word.

As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, *in Revelation 5:8,* where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.”

*So, we do pray to saints, but not to worship them. We pray to ask for their prayers. They pray with us and for us, just as others here on earth can pray with us and for us. Have you ever asked a friend or a family member to pray for you? It is the same thing.

*Prayer is simply a request. 

Worship is something altogether different. 
We do pray to them, but some prayer is making a request. 

We make requests of the saints and of Mary for their intercession, which the Bible says is pleasing to God.
Paul says that Christians should intercede: “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” *(1 Tim. 2:1–4).

*A request can only be answered by God. 
*We request God’s help, his mercy, and his divine intervention. Nevertheless, we do ask the saints, the Blessed Virgin Mary and others in heaven to petition our prayer to God for us. All with the same goal, that God will help, have mercy and divinely intervene.

*Source: http://whycatholicsdothat.com/do-catholics-worship-the-saints/


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## Rsgal

*Do Catholics Worship the Blessed Virgin Mary?
*
Misconception: Catholics worship Mary.

True Catholic Teaching: Catholics do not worship Mary. God ordered His people in the Ten Commandments to worship Him alone. Catholics only worship the one, true God in His three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus is the second part of the Holy Trinity. He is the Word of God made flesh *(John 1:14).* He is God.

Since Jesus is God and His mother is Mary, Catholics call Mary the “Mother of God”. This does not mean that we think Mary made God or came before God. Instead it is testimony to the truth that Mary is the mother of the part of God that became human – Jesus.

The Catholic Church teaches that God specifically chose Mary out of all the women in the world to be the mother of Jesus. In the Gospel of Luke the angel Gabriel visits Mary to announce His coming and says,”Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.” Catholics believe that just as Mary’s virgin body was kept pure in preparation for Jesus, that her soul also was kept free from the stain of sin.

When it comes to the Catholic Church’s teaching on Mary, many of our non-Catholic brothers and sisters find the position Catholics hold regarding Mary difficult to accept. Namely, the Immaculate Conception, Mary as “Mother of God”, and the Assumption of Mary into Heaven and her Coronation as Queen. However, this difficulty mainly stems from a lack of understanding.

The Catholic Church firmly believes that Mary was immaculately conceived. Since God rejects all sin, and the purpose of Christ’s incarnation was to release man from the grasp of Satan, it was not suitable that our redeemer be personally associated with sin. This means that unlike the original sin that we as humans inherit at the moment of conception, Mary was exempt from this sin, and in like manner, was not subject to sin throughout her life. 
In* Luke 1:28,* The Angel Gabriel addresses Mary “Hail, full of grace!” The fullness of grace would not have been hers, had she any stain of sin. In the Apostolic Constitution by Pope Pius IX on the Immaculate Conception, he iterates this teaching:

“Above all creatures did God so loved her that truly in her was the Father well pleased with singular delight. Therefore, far above all the angels and all the saints so wondrously did God endow her with the abundance of all heavenly gifts poured from the treasury of his divinity that this mother, ever absolutely free of all stain of sin, all fair and perfect, would possess that fullness of holy innocence and sanctity than which, under God, one cannot even imagine anything greater, and which, outside of God, no mind can succeed in comprehending fully.”

The Catholic Church commemorates Mary’s Immaculate Conception on December 8th of each year.

As we read the gospels, we see unmistakably that Mary is the Mother of Jesus. In the Angel Gabriel’s greeting to Mary, he confirms that she will bear the Son of God. In the profession of faith we recite at each Sunday Mass, we proclaim that Jesus is the second person of the Trinity, that He is “true God from true God”. Therefore, if Jesus is God, we must gather that Mary, the one who gave birth to, and nurtured Jesus, is the mother of God who became Man – Jesus. There is no other human to whom Jesus was as closely and intimately connected, as His Mother, Mary.

The Catholic Church relies heavily on sacred tradition, as passed down from the apostles, and manifested in the teaching authority of the Church. The assumption of Mary is one doctrine of the Church that has emerged from apostolic tradition, rather than directly from scripture. It is not officially declared whether or not Mary underwent human death. However, what the Church does officially pronounce is that after the course of her earthly life, Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven by the power of God. The Church’s belief that Mary’s soul was perfectly sinless gives us confidence that she went directly to God. At the same time, her body was not subject to corruption, as our human bodies typically are. There is biblical history of one who is so close to God, being assumed body and soul into heaven. In the Old Testament, we see that Elijah was assumed into heaven in a whirlwind. (2 Kings 2:11). Similarly we read in Hebrews 11:5, “By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.” Mary was even closer to God than these two biblical figures, and therefore this special privilege of bodily assumption was granted to her. The feast of Mary’s Assumption is celebrated on August 15th of each year.

Mary’s body has been glorified in heaven and she has been given an important role near her Son as Queen of Heaven and Earth. Mary is entitled “queen” because she is the Mother of Jesus, who is truly a King of kings. With the queenship Mary has been given by her Son, Mary offers abiding mercy and compassion, interceding for all of God’s children. In the book of Revelation 12:1, Mary’s status as queen is reflected, “and a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.” The feast of Mary’s queenship is celebrated on August 22nd of each year.

Mary has been given an extraordinary role in the history of salvation. In response to her special status, Catholics give Mary unequaled admiration and respect, greater than any other saint. This is a tradition often misunderstood by non-Catholics. The honor we give to Mary is not to be compared to the worship and praise we give only to Almighty God. However, Mary must not be disregarded, as she offers many graces, and mercy to all who call upon her intercession.

For more information regarding the Dogma of the Assumption and Coronation of Mary, please view the official Church document at the following link: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-xii_apc_19501101_munificentissimus-deus_en.html


Source: http://whycatholicsdothat.com/the-blessed-virgin-mary/


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## Rsgal

*Why is the Catholic Bible different from the Protestant Bible?*

The New Testament canon of the Catholic Bible and the Protestant Bible are the same with 27 Books. 

The difference is in the Old Testament.
Around 100 BC in Alexandria, the Greek Emperor, Ptolemy II, commissioned 71 Jewish leaders to translate the Jewish scripture into Greek. The book translated book is called the Septuagint.

During the first century, the Septuagint was widely used in the Roman world. It was the translation used during the life of Jesus. The Septuagint is the Old Testament and scripture that Jesus refers to in the Gospels. It continued to be the Bible used after the resurrection and the Old Testament Bible of Christianity.
After the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD, the Jewish leaders came together and declared its official canon of scripture at the Council of Jamnia in 90 AD, eliminating seven books from the Septuagint.

The books removed were Tobit, Judith, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees (which tells the story of Hanukkah…so that means that you can only find the story of Hanukkah in the Catholic Bible), Wisdom (of Solomon), Sirach, and Baruch. 
Parts of existing books were also removed including Psalm 151 (from Psalms), parts of the Book of Esther, Susanna (from Daniel as chapter 13), and Bel and the Dragon (from Daniel as chapter 14).

The Christian Church did not change with the Jews. They kept all the books in the Septuagint. It is the same Old Testament used by Jesus and used by the Catholic Church today.

In the 1500’s, Martin Luther broke with the Catholic Church. During this time he also changed the Old Testament. He rejected many tenants of Catholicism which could be found in some of the “rejected” books of the Septuagint (such as 2 Maccabees which provides some scriptural proof of the existence of Purgatory which Martin Luther didn’t believe in), so he decided to use the Jamnian Canon of Hebrew Scriptures instead of the Septuagint. These books are sometimes referred to as the “Apocrypha” by Protestants or the “Deuterocanonical” books meaning “also canonical” by Catholics. In fact, Martin Luther almost threw out the Letter of James from the New Testament because it talks about how important doing good works is to show that you are a follower of Christ. Anglican and Lutheran Bibles usually add these books today as an appendix. Many evangelical Bibles do not show the books at all.

The Council of Trent in 1546 reaffirmed what the early Church councils had proclaimed in the 4th century: the texts found in the Catholic Bible are all the authentic Word of God and comprise the complete canon of Sacred Scripture. Hence the Catholic Bible has 73 books.

Catholics should use Catholic translations when reading the Bible. 
First, it has all the books that Catholics hear at mass.   
Secondly, the footnotes are based on Catholic interpretations, not Protestant teachings.

*Catholic Bible Translations*
There are several different English translations available for the Catholic Bible. The primary ones include:

• *New American Bible (NAB)* – This version is the most common American translation. It was written for an eighth grade reading level and contains the most “modern” language of the primary Catholic translations. The New American Bible is available in more versions than any other Catholic Bible.
• *Douay Rheim* – This is the oldest English translation available and is frequently compared with the King James version because of its use of “Thee”, “Thou” and other older forms of words. This translation is considered highly accurate but can be more difficult to read for some people.

• *Revised Standard (RSV)* – This was a joint translation project between American Protestants and Catholics with the Catholic Church completing the translation of the Apocrypha. This translation is considered the most accurate modern translation but still contains “Thee” and “Thou” when referring to God. This translation along with the New American Bible was approved for liturgical use in the United States.
• *Revised Standard 2nd Edition* – This version is almost identical to the regular Revised Standard but updates the language by getting rid of “Thee” and “Thou”.
• *Jerusalem Bible*e – The Jerusalem Bible, completed in 1966, is very similar to the Revised Standard Version 2nd edition in that it is a modern English language translation. It was produced under the direction of the Dominican scholars at the renowned Ecole Biblique de Jerusalem.

Source: http://whycatholicsdothat.com/why-is-the-catholic-bible-different-from-the-protestant-bible/


----------



## auparavant

Oh lawd....so my youngest asks me to explain to him Revelations...and all I can think of is that it's largely allegorical and that some of it explains some of the tribulation of the Church that has already occurred. Suggestions for an online catholic study according to our faith?  The kid is 12.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

auparavant said:


> Oh lawd....so my youngest asks me to explain to him Revelations...and all I can think of is that it's largely allegorical and that some of it explains some of the tribulation of the Church that has already occurred. Suggestions for an online catholic study according to our faith?  The kid is 12.



This isn't online, but Scott Hahn's Marriage of the Lamb was a good read.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Can we talk about medals, scapulars, saints bracelets, etc?  I really want a miraculous medal (I actually have one that was blessed and sent free in the mail) but I don't have a chain for it.  Does anyone wear these items?  If so why?


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## auparavant

Hi, I wear a scapular of brown wool.  My kids wear them.  I believe in the promises made to assist us in this daily walk.  Love sacramentals and I view them as wonderful gifts from G-d.  They are not necessary and obligatory, but they are  a lot of help in this life.

As for how many medals I have...I don't know but I kinda collect them.  St. Benedict's medal against evil is another one I like...as well as the Miraculous Medal.


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## auparavant

Belle Du Jour said:


> How do you meet people in your parish?  We get a lot of visitors at my church although I'm starting to recognize the regulars like myself.  However, there doesn't seem to be a lot of time to socialize.  There's a young black woman I see come into church for Mass, but I never got a chance to say hello after service is over.  There are a few black families I see every Sunday too.



Pretty family-oriented and that's wehre I got most of my friends in the parish (connected or friends with my kids at the parish school).  Maybe try and seat yourself with the regulars and strike up a convo with them sometime.  It can be daunting with any large parish (like when we moved here) or even smaller.    Try to go to programs and events sponsored for singles etc. You'll probably make more friendships.


----------



## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> Can we talk about medals, scapulars, saints bracelets, etc?  I really want a miraculous medal (I actually have one that was blessed and sent free in the mail) but I don't have a chain for it.  Does anyone wear these items?  If so why?



I wear the Brown Scapular because I love Our Lady of Mt. Carmel and the Carmelites . I also believe in the promises Our Lady made to those who wear the Brown Scapular.


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## Galadriel

auparavant said:


> Oh lawd....so my youngest asks me to explain to him Revelations...and all I can think of is that it's largely allegorical and that some of it explains some of the tribulation of the Church that has already occurred. Suggestions for an online catholic study according to our faith?  The kid is 12.



I'll take a look around and get back to you on that. It has been my understanding that Revelation is a mix of allegory and prophecy (concerning the Second Coming, the General Judgment, etc.)

The Church Fathers spoke of the end of the world/end times in the following sequence (in general):



a Great Apostasy, where many will fall away from the faith and there will be the True Church vs. the False Church
St. Paul says after the apostasy or falling away, will come the Antichrist
there'll be a final persecution of the Church
Christ will return to judge the living and the dead (the General Judgment)
When Christ speaks of the "abomination of desolation," prophesied by the prophet Daniel, Church Fathers had always interpreted this to be the absence of the True Presence from the tabernacle--i.e., a false/invalid Eucharist set up by the apostate church.


Also, think of when it says in Revelation that sacrifices will be stopped or hindered for 1.5 years--I know most Protestants interpret this as the Jews will eventually get around to animal sacrifice again, but name one CURRENT Judeo-Christian religion which offers sacrifices every day of the week--the Catholic Church offers the sacrifice of the Mass.


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## auparavant

Galadriel said:


> Also, think of when it says in Revelation that sacrifices will be stopped or hindered for 1.5 years--I know most Protestants interpret this as the Jews will eventually get around to animal sacrifice again, but name one CURRENT Judeo-Christian religion which offers sacrifices every day of the week--the Catholic Church offers the sacrifice of the Mass.




All I know is that the perfect heiffer is being searched for lol.  Can't hold a sacrifice until the temple is rebuilt.  And then, how will that be interpreted?  You know what I'm thinking lol!  3 Days...yes.  But there are some churches that still have a sacrifice,  not daily.  It's not sacrificial, though, more symbolic.  

I'm looking for something to delineate all the prophecies already taken place and tie them in with the "old" Testament.  Maybe if I look at some curriculum from a local paroquial high school, I can tweak it for a younger kid.


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## Belle Du Jour

auparavant said:


> Hi, I wear a scapular of brown wool.  My kids wear them.  I believe in the promises made to assist us in this daily walk.  Love sacramentals and I view them as wonderful gifts from G-d.  They are not necessary and obligatory, but they are  a lot of help in this life.
> 
> As for how many medals I have...I don't know but I kinda collect them.  St. Benedict's medal against evil is another one I like...as well as the Miraculous Medal.





Galadriel said:


> I wear the Brown Scapular because I love Our Lady of Mt. Carmel and the Carmelites . I also believe in the promises Our Lady made to those who wear the Brown Scapular.



Y'all are hardcore! 

I'm just learning about the scapular now but I'm not ready to commit.  I understand you have to be enrolled in it?  I think I'll start with a medal and _possibly _a green scapular.


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## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> Y'all are hardcore!
> 
> I'm just learning about the scapular now but I'm not ready to commit.  I understand you have to be enrolled in it?  I think I'll start with a medal and _possibly _a green scapular.



 hardcore, baby!!!

On a more serious note, even if you haven't enrolled in the Brown scapular yet, if you still wear it and follow Carmelite spirituality, you can still reap many benefits.


----------



## milaydy31

How do you interpret the Psalm 22? If the 2nd verse of this Psalm are Jesus words, do you think that Jesus felt betrayed by God during His last instants? 
I just thought about this sentence and I realised I don't know how to interpret it. 

Thanks in advance.

Sent from my iPhone using LHCF


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## auparavant

^^^I don't know either...other than, perhaps, G-d turned His face from the sin Jesus took on in that sacrifice?  I dunno.


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## Galadriel

milaydy31 said:


> How do you interpret the Psalm 22? If the 2nd verse of this Psalm are Jesus words, do you think that Jesus felt betrayed by God during His last instants?
> I just thought about this sentence and I realised I don't know how to interpret it.
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using LHCF




milaydy31 Psalm 22 touches upon the Messiah as the "Suffering Servant" (like in Isaiah 52:13-53:12, and Daniel 9:26). It's not that He felt betrayed by God in that moment, but rather that (1) Christ is expressing the anguish and suffering He is bearing for the sins of the world, and (2) by quoting part of this Psalm He points to the fact that He is indeed the Messiah foretold by the prophets.

Just think, most of His disciples had been dispersed, He has been humiliated and assaulted, and people are taunting Him "If you are the Messiah...come down, free yourself..." Christ is King, but what those who rejected Him failed to see, is that He is also the Suffering Servant, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.


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## milaydy31

Galadriel said:
			
		

> milaydy31 Psalm 22 touches upon the Messiah as the "Suffering Servant" (like in Isaiah 52:13-53:12, and Daniel 9:26). It's not that He felt betrayed by God in that moment, but rather that (1) Christ is expressing the anguish and suffering He is bearing for the sins of the world, and (2) by quoting part of this Psalm He points to the fact that He is indeed the Messiah foretold by the prophets.
> 
> Just think, most of His disciples had been dispersed, He has been humiliated and assaulted, and people are taunting Him "If you are the Messiah...come down, free yourself..." Christ is King, but what those who rejected Him failed to see, is that He is also the Suffering Servant, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.



Thank you for your explanation

Sent from my iPhone using LHCF


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## zora

Galadriel said:


> I'll take a look around and get back to you on that. It has been my understanding that Revelation is a mix of allegory and prophecy (concerning the Second Coming, the General Judgment, etc.)
> 
> The Church Fathers spoke of the end of the world/end times in the following sequence (in general):
> 
> 
> 
> a Great Apostasy, where many will fall away from the faith and there will be the True Church vs. the False Church
> St. Paul says after the apostasy or falling away, will come the Antichrist
> there'll be a final persecution of the Church
> Christ will return to judge the living and the dead (the General Judgment)
> When Christ speaks of the "abomination of desolation," prophesied by the prophet Daniel, Church Fathers had always interpreted this to be the absence of the True Presence from the tabernacle--i.e., a false/invalid Eucharist set up by the apostate church.
> 
> 
> Also, think of when it says in Revelation that sacrifices will be stopped or hindered for 1.5 years--I know most Protestants interpret this as the Jews will eventually get around to animal sacrifice again, but name one CURRENT Judeo-Christian religion which offers sacrifices every day of the week--the Catholic Church offers the sacrifice of the Mass.



Ok, it is just me or isn't this kind of scary.  It's bad enough we have all these things that try pull us away from God, but then you are persecuted for your beliefs.

How do you gain spiritual armor?  How do you discern who are true believers versus deceivers?


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## Galadriel

zora said:


> Ok, it is just me or isn't this kind of scary.  It's bad enough we have all these things that try pull us away from God, but then you are persecuted for your beliefs.
> 
> How do you gain spiritual armor?  How do you discern who are true believers versus deceivers?



We already see false doctrines and "false Christs" arise in our world. Whether it's spiritualism, New Ageism, various heresies, etc.

This is why God gave us Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition (i.e., the  oral teachings and examples of the Apostles faithfully handed down). 

We must:

1) Hold on to the Faith entirely and purely, study it and know it so that we can tell truth from falsehood, as well as defend the Faith
2) Repent of our sins and follow Jesus Christ, growing in sanctity and communion with Our Lord
3) Pray, cultivate a strong prayer life
4) Help and encourage everyone we know to do #1-3


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## auparavant

Galadriel said:


> We already see false doctrines and "false Christs" arise in our world. Whether it's spiritualism, New Ageism, various heresies, etc.
> 
> This is why God gave us Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition (i.e., the  oral teachings and examples of the Apostles faithfully handed down).




There was so much of christianity I could not comprehend (disjointed, out of place) until it was placed within the correct view and practice for me.  The precedences were EVERYTHING for me.  Holy Tradition comes straight down from the Aaronic practices, leading back to Moses and the Oral Law G-d passed to him.  It took me years to figure that out and I'm glad I did.


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## Belle Du Jour

I just started a 54 day rosary novena   Let's hope I can make it through this time LOL.


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## Belle Du Jour

Have we discussed Eucharistic Adoration yet?  I *love *going to adoration.  Here is a link to some information on it.








> 3 Kings 7:48 "And Solomon made all the vessels for the house of the Lord: the altar of gold, and the table of gold, upon which the loaves of proposition should be set..."
> 
> 2 Paralipomenon 2:4-2 "So do with me that I may build a house to the name of the Lord my God, to dedicate it to burn incense before him, and to perfume with aromatical spices, and for the continual setting forth of bread, and for the holocausts, morning and evening, and on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and the solemnities of the Lord our God for ever, which are commanded for Israel."
> 
> Luke 22:19 "This is my body, which is given for you."
> 
> John 1:29  "Behold the Lamb of God. Behold him who taketh away the sin of the world."
> 
> John 6:32-36 ... "Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say to you; Moses gave you not bread from heaven, but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is that which cometh down from heaven and giveth life to the world. They said therefore unto him: Lord, give us always this bread. And Jesus said to them: I am the bread of life. He that cometh to me shall not hunger: and he that believeth in me shall never thirst. But I said unto you that you also have seen me, and you believe not."
> 
> Apocalypse 2:17 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches: To him that overcometh I will give the hidden manna and will give him a white counter: and in the counter, a new name written, which no man knoweth but he that receiveth it."
> 
> Visits to the Blessed Sacrament
> 
> The simplest, least formal, and most common way that Catholics honor Christ in the Eucharist outside of the Mass is by making simple visits to a Church to be near the Blessed Sacrament. They may go to pray, to sit quietly, to meditate, pray the Rosary, read Scripture, etc. As churches lock their doors now in response to the paganization of Western culture, it's become much more difficult to randomly visit a church and find it open to pay our respects, but one can possibly arrange with one's priest or with the parish office to be allowed inside during off-hours.
> 
> The Blessed Sacrament should be kept in the Tabernacle on the High Altar in the sanctuary, and with a sanctuary lamp ("ner tamid" to the ancient Israelites) burning nearby, but sometimes you might find the Tabernacle in a side chapel (often called a "Blessed Sacrament Chapel" or, if your parish offers Perpetual Adoration, a "Perpetual Adoration Chapel"). The tabernacle itself is the receptacle that holds the vessels that contain the Blessed Sacrament. It is lined inside with either gold or white silk, and is covered outside with a veil called a "canopeum."


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## Galadriel

Awesome  I've also been getting into the Divine Mercy chaplet. It would be nice to pray the chaplet while doing Eucharistic Adoration. 

Thanks for the link!



Belle Du Jour said:


> Have we discussed Eucharistic Adoration yet?  I *love *going to adoration.  Here is a link to some information on it.


----------



## auparavant

For awhile, I could only say it by singing it lol.  My frst intro to it was via an EWTN televised prayer.  It's a beautiful prayer ...still rather mysterious to me.  We offer thee the Body, the Blood, Soul and Divinity?  But I am trustful of it for souls in peril.


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## Belle Du Jour

My first experience with it was doing the novena leading up to Divine Mercy Sunday this year.  At church, we had a procession around the block with the Sacrament and then sang it.  It's beautiful as a song (like the Litany of the Saints).  

I agree that it's a mysterious prayer.  I honestly don't know how I feel about Sr. Faustina, but sometimes, her simple prayer comes to my mind: "Jesus, I *trust *in you!"


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## Belle Du Jour

Speaking of the Divine Mercy chaplet, I have a question:

What exactly does it mean to "offer [God] the body, blood, soul and divinity of [His] dearly beloved Son, Jesus Christ."  How can we offer that as atonement?  Jesus already made that sacrifice, right?  So if you have any insight, please share!


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## Belle Du Jour

This is a nice story: Ethiopian winner of the 5000m race had a ppicture of the Virgin Mary under her clothes as she ran. 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thecrescat/2012/08/faith-of-an-olympian.html


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## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> Speaking of the Divine Mercy chaplet, I have a question:
> 
> What exactly does it mean to "offer [God] the body, blood, soul and divinity of [His] dearly beloved Son, Jesus Christ."  How can we offer that as atonement?  Jesus already made that sacrifice, right?  So if you have any insight, please share!



The atonement of the Cross is eternal, for all times and places. When the priest consecrates the Host during Mass, he is offering that one same Sacrifice.

When we are praying the chaplet of Divine Mercy, "I offer You..." isn't meant in the sense "I have the authority/power to make this offer to You," but rather you are presenting that one same Sacrifice to God or bringing it before Him, and asking for His Mercy.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Happy Feast of the Assumption!

Her death:





Her Assumption:


----------



## Belle Du Jour

What is the Assumption?



> The Feast of the Assumption is a very old feast of the Church, celebrated universally by the sixth century. The feast was originally celebrated in the East, where it is known as the Feast of the Dormition, a word which means "the falling asleep." The earliest printed reference to the belief that Mary's body was assumed into Heaven dates from the fourth century, in a document entitled "The Falling Asleep of the Holy Mother of God." The document is written in the voice of the Apostle John, to whom Christ on the Cross had entrusted the care of His mother, and recounts the death, laying in the tomb, and assumption of the Blessed Virgin. Tradition variously places Mary's death at Jerusalem or at Ephesus, where John was living.





> As early as the second century, Christians had begun to venerate the bones of martyrs and saints. Yet at no time did any local Christian church claim to possess the earthly remains of the Blessed Virgin's body, nor has anyone ever claimed to have discovered her tomb.
> 
> These are arguments from silence, of course; but knowing the deep respect and devotion in which Christians held the remains of the martyrs and saints, it would particularly odd for Christians of the first few centuries to have had no interest in relics of the Blessed Virgin. The lack of such interest must be explained another way, and the early, universal belief in the Assumption of Mary is the best explanation.
> 
> The Assumption reflects the honor that Christ accorded to His Mother, an honor so great that He did not allow her body to suffer decay after her death. But it also provides us with a foretaste of our own bodily resurrection at the end of time and, thus, confirms our faith and gives us hope. Mary wasn't assumed into Heaven because she was somehow more than human; her Assumption is actually a sign of what it means to be truly human--a condition that is possible only through the grace that comes through our faith in Christ.



Interesting apocryphal account of her death and assumption: 


> In that time before the Lord came to His passion, and among many words which the mother asked of the Son, she began to ask Him about her own departure, addressing Him as follows:— O most dear Son, I pray Your holiness, that when my soul goes out of my body, Thou let me know on the third day before; and do Thou, beloved Son, with Your angels, receive it. Then He received the prayer of His beloved mother, and said to her: O palace and temple of the living God, O blessed mother, O queen of all saints, and blessed above all women, before you carried me in your womb, I always guarded you, and caused you to be fed daily with my angelic food, as you know, how can I desert you, after you have carried me, and nourished me, and brought me down in flight into Egypt, and endured many hardships for me? Know, then, that my angels have always guarded you, and will guard you even until your departure. But after I undergo suffering for men, as it is written, and rise again on the third day, and after forty days ascend into heaven, when you shall see me coming to you with angels and archangels, with saints and with virgins, and with my disciples, know for certain that your soul will be separated from the body, and I shall carry it into heaven, where it shall never at all have tribulation or anguish. Then she joyed and gloried, and kissed the knees of her Son, and blessed the Creator of heaven and earth, who gave her such a gift through Jesus Christ her Son.
> 
> In the second year, therefore, after the ascension of our Lord Jesus Christ, the most blessed Virgin Mary continued always in prayer day and night. And on the third day before she passed away, an angel of the Lord came to her, and saluted her, saying: Hail, Mary, full of grace! The Lord be with you. And she answered, saying: Thanks to God. Again he said to her: Receive this palm which the Lord promised to you. And she, giving thanks to God, with great joy received from the hand of the angel the palm sent to her. The angel of the Lord said to her: Your assumption will be after three days. And she answered: Thanks to God.



Both from www.catholicism.about.com


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## Belle Du Jour

Galadriel said:


> hardcore, baby!!!
> 
> On a more serious note, *even if you haven't enrolled in the Brown scapular yet, if you still wear it and follow Carmelite spirituality, you can still reap many benefits*.



I think I will hold off on the brown scapular but I'm ordering some green scapulars for the coversion of other folks (insert "evil" laugh).  

I am feeling called to get a Miraculous Medal.  I recently visited The Chapel of the MM and saw St. Catherine's incorrupt body eek.  Amazing.  I should have gotten a medal there but I got there just a few moments before the place closed.


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## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> Happy Feast of the Assumption!
> 
> Her death:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Her Assumption:



Happy Feast of the Assumption!


----------



## Belle Du Jour

I've been reading a bit on Marian apparitions, specifically the Fatima predictions and the ones that took place (not confirmed by the Vatican) in Conyers, GA.  I'm scared y'all.   I may start the first Saturdays consecration in the September.  I'm already doing a daily Rosary for this 54-day novena).  

Specifically about Fatima and the message about Russia, I remember an elderly Pentecostal woman that used to take care of me when I was a child had a timeline in her (Protestant) Bible about things that were going to happen signaling the end of the world.  RUSSIA/war with Russia was one of the things mentioned and it was stamped on my brain because I always thought it was such a random country to be mentioned.  But all these years later, after reading about Fatima, I'm starting to wonder if there is some truth to that. . .


----------



## auparavant

Yeah, I used to be worrried about those things but then married life hit me and those soon quelled.  I don't worry about them anymore lol!  It's one day at a time.  I have so many other worries.  I am a bit concerned about this economy and potential collapse but what can I do?  Nothing other than what I'm able.

Well, I consecrated myself to Mary long before becoming a catholic.  She is how I entered.  It's a good thing.  She is very beautiful and her eyes are all for Jesus, her son.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

auparavant said:


> Yeah, I used to be worrried about those things but then married life hit me and those soon quelled.  I don't worry about them anymore lol!  It's one day at a time.  I have so many other worries.  I am a bit concerned about this economy and potential collapse but what can I do?  Nothing other than what I'm able.
> 
> *Well, I consecrated myself to Mary long before becoming a catholic.  She is how I entered.  It's a good thing.*  She is very beautiful and her eyes are all for Jesus, her son.



I feel like I'm being called to do this, but I'm a little scared.  I'm trying some "gateway" devotionals first like the Miraculous Medal and a green scapular.  I also entrusted her with a specific area of my life.  I'll see how that goes.


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## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> I've been reading a bit on Marian apparitions, specifically the Fatima predictions and the ones that took place (not confirmed by the Vatican) in Conyers, GA.  I'm scared y'all.   I may start the first Saturdays consecration in the September.  I'm already doing a daily Rosary for this 54-day novena).
> 
> Specifically about Fatima and the message about Russia, I remember an elderly Pentecostal woman that used to take care of me when I was a child had a timeline in her (Protestant) Bible about things that were going to happen signaling the end of the world.  RUSSIA/war with Russia was one of the things mentioned and it was stamped on my brain because I always thought it was such a random country to be mentioned.  But all these years later, after reading about Fatima, I'm starting to wonder if there is some truth to that. . .



I have studied the apparitions of Fatima and I want to do the First Saturdays as well . 

You might want to check out the recently beatified Bl. Elena Aiello who went into detail concerning Russia (among other things). She was an Italian nun and mystic.



> RUSSIA WILL MARCH UPON ALL THE NATIONS OF EUROPE, PARTICULARLY ITALY,  AND WILL RAISE HER FLAG OVER THE DOME OF ST. PETER’S. Italy will be  severely tried by a great revolution, and Rome will be purified in blood  for its many sins, especially those of impurity! The flock is about to  be dispersed and the Pope must suffer greatly.



 source: Mystics of the Church

Btw, the messages of Nancy Fowler of Conyers, GA are not approved. Several of her messages contradict Scripture and the Magisterium.


----------



## Rsgal

PILLARS OF CATHOLICISM

Dr. Michael Barber, has a free online course, Pillars of Catholicism, on the fundamentals of the Catholic Faith, with 13 weekly half-hour episodes. All of the course materials are free.

http://pillarsofcatholicism.com/

Ps share.


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## Belle Du Jour

Rsgal said:


> PILLARS OF CATHOLICISM
> 
> Dr. Michael Barber, has a free online course, Pillars of Catholicism, on the fundamentals of the Catholic Faith, with 13 weekly half-hour episodes. All of the course materials are free.
> 
> http://pillarsofcatholicism.com/
> 
> Ps share.



This looks like it will be awesome!


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Galadriel said:


> I have studied the apparitions of Fatima and I want to do the First Saturdays as well .
> 
> You might want to check out the recently beatified Bl. Elena Aiello who went into detail concerning Russia (among other things). She was an Italian nun and mystic.
> 
> source: Mystics of the Church
> 
> Btw, the messages of Nancy Fowler of Conyers, GA are not approved. Several of her messages contradict Scripture and the Magisterium.



That quote is scary.  With the financial collapse of Europe, I think things are moving in the direction for a nation like Russia to declare war.  Why haven't any of the popes done what the BVM asked?  Is it that Russia has to consent to the consecration or do they just have to go and do it on Russian soil?  

Maybe some of us can on here can do the First Saturdays together?  I was thinking Sept-January which would bring in the new year right.


----------



## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> That quote is scary.  With the financial collapse of Europe, I think things are moving in the direction for a nation like Russia to declare war.  Why haven't any of the popes done what the BVM asked?  Is it that Russia has to consent to the consecration or do they just have to go and do it on Russian soil?



It doesn't have to be on Russian soil, but all the bishops of the world (in their dioceses) must do it in unison with the Bishop of Rome. There are several obstacles (hostility and resentment of Russia and the Eastern Orthodox, some bishops are heretics and wouldn't cooperate, etc.).

It is prophesied that the next pope (Benedict XVI's successor) will do the consecration.




Belle Du Jour said:


> Maybe some of us can on here can do the First Saturdays together?  I was thinking Sept-January which would bring in the new year right.



Let's do it!


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Thanks for the clarification.  OK, I'll put first Saturdays on my calendar right now.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

I stumbled on these today: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pHvjhlFD8U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDQcOr7qAf4&feature=relmfu

Speaking of Marian consecration, this woman's mother basically gave her over to Mary (because of her wild partying ways) and said "she's YOUR daughter now" and prayed she would become a nun.  Well, she is now.


----------



## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> I stumbled on these today:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pHvjhlFD8U
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDQcOr7qAf4&feature=relmfu
> 
> Speaking of Marian consecration, this woman's mother basically gave her over to Mary (because of her wild partying ways) and said "she's YOUR daughter now" and prayed she would become a nun.  Well, she is now.



Love it! Sister is amazing


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Galadriel said:


> Let's do it!



I just found out that one of the parishes within walking distance of me has a first Saturdays devotion   Also on Saturdays they have a tridentine mass (which I set a goal of attending 1-2x/mo) so it's perfect.  They also have adoration 

#winning


----------



## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> I just found out that one of the parishes within walking distance of me has a first Saturdays devotion   Also on Saturdays they have a tridentine mass (which I set a goal of attending 1-2x/mo) so it's perfect.  They also have adoration
> 
> #winning



No way! Lucky you! 

My parish has 24/7 adoration but I'll have to go to another parish for Latin Mass. But I'm all over 1st Saturday devotions--here we go! Sept. 1


----------



## auparavant

Of course, I had to tell her that to leave the fullness of grace is to reject Jesus, the completion.  I pray it sticks for life.


----------



## auparavant

Why We Suffer

http://www.catholicbible101.com/whywesuffer.htm

So why do bad things happen to good people? Didn’t Jesus suffer for us on the cross? Wasn’t his suffering a total and complete sacrifice for our sins?  Do we need to unite our sufferings with Jesus to be saved, or is suffering just some random event that happens here on earth with no afterlife consequences?

The bible has the answers.  St. Paul says in Colossians 1:24:

“Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church”

 That statement packs a lot of theology.  Pope John Paul II said that Christ's sufferings were lacking nothing.  What this verse means is that Christ expects us to unite our sufferings with His.  Peter talks about this in  1 Peter 4:13:
But rejoice in so far as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.

And why is this?  For the sake of The Church, which is the bride of Christ (Ephesians 5:23):

“For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.”

Christ’s sufferings overcame the original sin of Adam (1 Corinthians 15:21-22):

“For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.  For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.”

Paul’s sufferings are somewhat different than the sufferings of Jesus, as they are for the benefit of the Church, the bride of Christ.  The Church, established by Christ, (Matthew 16:18):

“And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.”

will suffer along with Christ until the end of time (John 15:20):

“Remember the word that I said to you, `A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you”
*
link for rest*http://www.catholicbible101.com/whywesuffer.htm


----------



## Belle Du Jour

I wanted to post something about the archangels.  Before I converted, I was having an issue at work and found a prayer to St. Michael.  I prayed it will all my might because I felt that I was in a spiritual battle.  God delivered me and I have a special place in my heart for Archangel Michael, the commander in chief of the other angels.  From EWTN:



> THE ARCHANGEL MICHAEL
> 
> Michael from the Hebrew <Mikha'el>, meaning: <Who is as God>? His name is a battle cry; both shield and weapon in the struggle, and an eternal trophy of victory. The popularity of this name in the Old Testament appears from the fact that no less than ten persons bearing the name of Michael are mentioned in the sacred books, like: "Sthur the son of Michael." A similar name is found also in the Accadian language with a meaning identical to that of Michael; the Accadian equivalent is <Mannuki-ili.>
> 
> As the proper name of one of the great Archangels, the word Michael appears for the first time in the book of the prophet Daniel, where he is called: "Michael, one of the chief princes," and again: "At that time shall Michael rise up, the great prince, who standeth for the children of thy people."
> 
> The name "Archangel" is given only to Saint Michael, even though sacred tradition and the liturgy of the Church attribute the same title to Saint Gabriel and Saint Raphael: "When Michael, the archangel, disputing with the devil, contended about the body of Moses, he durst not bring against him the judgment of railing speech, but said: The Lord command thee." In spite of such an explicit testimony of the Scripture, a few writers have maintained that Saint Michael, because of his exalted position among the Angels, must belong to a much higher order, perhaps to that of the Seraphim, rather than to the order of Archangels. We do not believe that this opinion can be defended. The exalted position occupied by Saint Michael can be explained by the fact that, even though he belongs to a relatively low order by nature, his outstanding zeal for the glory of God and the salvation of his fellow Angels, at the time of Satan's rebellion, merited him such glory and power as to equal and even to excel through grace such celestial spirits that belong to a much higher Choir by nature. If we remember, ie Angels lived through a period of probation during which they could merit each according to his works. The great variety of merit explains, in addition to other natural elements, the great difference in their glory and in their power.
> 
> Father Joseph Husslein points out that the Church calls Saint Michael "Prince of the heavenly hosts"-<Princeps militiae caelestis>, adding further: "The fact that the three Angels I have just mentioned are spoken of as Archangels need not imply more than that they were entrusted with extraordinary missions. Michael is the only one to whom the Scriptures apply this title, but there is good reason for the opinion that he may be the very highest of all the angels." Saint Michael is indeed a prince of the heavenly hosts, but this is sufficiently explained by the power granted him by God and not necessarily by superiority of nature. We believe that a power of that sort would not be conferred upon Seraphim and Cherubim who are the living throne of God, but rather upon those who belong to the order of ministering spirits, namely Principalities, Archangels, and Angels, who "are sent to minister for them, who shall receive the inheritance of salvation."
> 
> According to Gustav F. Oehler, "this name: Michael-Who is as God?-of the prince of the Angels does not imply merely a humble acknowledgment on the part of the Angel, but it is rather an actual assertion concerning the Angel himself. The name thus expresses the irresistibility of him to whom God gives the power to execute His behests."
> 
> Saint Michael has always been the warrior Angel, fighting first Satan and his demons from the beginning, then, in the course of time, all the enemies of God's own People. He is "the great prince, who standeth for the children of thy people." As of old, so today, Saint Michael is the great defender of the Church of Christ on earth.
> 
> The now famous problem, "The Angel of the Lord," <Malakh Yahweh>, that has engaged the attention of Scripture scholars for decades, may perhaps be solved by admitting that this mysterious Angel of the Lord (who in various books of the Old Testament is represented as acting in ie name of God Himself, and is often received and honored as God would), is none other than the Archangel Saint Michael, God's own legate to His people. The words of the prophet Daniel seem to insinuate this: "None is my helper in all these things, but Michael your prince." "At that time shall Michael rise up, the great prince, who standeth for the children of thy people." A legate can speak and act in the name and by the authority of the supreme ruler who sent him and whom he represents. This seems to have been Saint Michael's position with the children of Israel; he was both the heavenly Prince representing the King of Heaven and the heavenly protector of God's own people against both human and diabolical enemies.
> 
> Saint Michael who had defended and protected God's children in the spirit world, was to extend the same protection to the human children of God here on earth. Surrounded and threatened as they were by hostile pagan nations, over which Satan had established his tyrannical rule, Saint Michael could not remain indifferent to this new form of seduction and rebellion introduced by his archenemy among the children of men. As long as Satan persists in his attacks, the heavenly champion, the Prince of the heavenly hosts will continue to shatter his plans with the war cry of old: "Who is as God?" In the Old Testament, therefore, Saint Michael is the Angel par excellence, the Angel of the Lord, the national Guardian Angel of the Israelites.
> 
> At times, especially in the book of Exodus, this "Angel of the Lord" is called simply, the Lord; as for example in this passage, "And the Lord went before them to show the way by day in a pillar of a cloud, and by night in a pillar of fire, that he might be the guide of their journey at both times." He who is called "the Lord" in this passage, is mentioned again in the same capacity as the "Angel of God" in the following passage: "And the Angel of God, who went before the camp of Israel, leaving the forepart, stood behind, between the Egyptian camp and the camp of Israel, and it was a dark cloud, and enlightening the night." This very clever military maneuver dearly shows the strategy of the Prince of heavenly hosts.
> 
> As the national Guardian Angel of the Israelites, and God's special legate to His people, Saint Michael is introduced with words which reveal the great divine love and solicitude of the Lord, together with man's duties towards Guardian Angels in general: "Behold I will send my Angel who shall go before thee, and keep thee in thy journey, and bring thee into the place that I have prepared. Take notice of him, and hear his voice, and do not think him one to be contemned, for he will not forgive when thou hast sinned, and my name is in him. But if thou wilt hear his voice, and do all that I speak, I will be an enemy to thy enemies, and will afflict them that afflict thee."
> 
> The other opinion which holds that the expression the "Angel of the Lord" is not really an Angel, or Saint Michael, but the Word of God (the Logos) God Himself, is now regarded as a mere conjecture and a rather obsolete opinion.
> 
> Several apparitions of the Archangel Michael have been reported during the Christian centuries. One of the most outstanding of all such apparitions is the one which is commemorated in the universal Church on May 8. The Archangel Saint Michael appeared on Mount Gargano in Apulia, South Italy, in the days of Pope Gelasius (492- 496). A shrine was erected in the cave of the apparition and it became the goal of devout pilgrimages in subsequent centuries. Another feast in honor of Saint Michael the Archangel, on September 29, formerly known as <Michaelmas>, is the anniversary of the Dedication of the former basilica of Saint Michael and all the Angels on the Salarian Way in Rome. An apparition, similar to that of Mount Gargano, was honored in the great shrine called <Michaelion>, near Constantinople, according to the historian Sozomenus, who wrote about the middle of the fifth century, a century of great devotion to the Holy Angels in general and to Saint Michael in particular.
> 
> In the liturgy of the Mass Saint Michael is regarded as the Angel who leads the souls of the faithful departed to heaven: "Deliver them from the lion's mouth, that hell engulf them not, that they fall not into darkness; but let Michael, the holy standard-bearer, bring them into the holy light."
> 
> Saint Michael is invoked in a particular manner in the prayers recited at the foot of the altar after Mass: "Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle, etc." This particular prayer is a condensed form of the general exorcism against Satan and all the evil spirits, published by Pope Leo XIII.
> 
> As long as God's children are exposed to the attacks of Satan in this world, Saint Michael's battle cry: "Who is like God?" will continue to scare and shatter all the forces of evil, and his powerful intervention in the struggle in behalf of the children of God will never cease.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

St. Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle.
Be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the Devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray,
and do thou,
O Prince of the heavenly hosts,
by the power of God,
thrust into hell Satan,
and all the evil spirits,
who prowl about the world
seeking the ruin of souls. Amen..


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Biblical support for the role of angels and why we can/should ask for their help:



> *Men Making Requests or Petitions of Angels (That Are Granted)*
> 
> Genesis 19:15,18-21 When morning dawned, the angels urged Lot, saying, "Arise, take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be consumed in the punishment of the city.". . . And Lot said to them, "Oh, no, my lords; behold, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you have shown me great kindness in saving my life; but I cannot flee to the hills, lest the disaster overtake me, and I die. Behold, yonder city is near enough to flee to, and it is a little one. Let me escape there -- is it not a little one? -- and my life will be saved!" He said to him, "Behold, I grant you this favor also, that I will not overthrow the city of which you have spoken.
> 
> Genesis 32:24-29 And Jacob was left alone; and a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day. When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and Jacob's thigh was put out of joint as he wrestled with him. Then he said, "Let me go, for the day is breaking." But Jacob said, "I will not let you go, unless you bless me." And he said to him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Jacob." Then he said, "Your name shall no more be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed." Then Jacob asked him, "Tell me, I pray, your name." But he said, "Why is it that you ask my name?" And there he blessed him.
> 
> Genesis 48:14-16 And Israel stretched out his right hand and laid it upon the head of E'phraim, who was the younger, and his left hand upon the head of Manas'seh, crossing his hands, for Manas'seh was the first-born. And he blessed Joseph, and said, "The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, the God who has led me all my life long to this day, the angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and in them let my name be perpetuated, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth."
> 
> *Angels Pray to God For Men and Give Grace*
> 
> Zechariah 1:12 Then the angel of the LORD said, `O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou have no mercy on Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these seventy years?'
> 
> Tobit 12:12a,15 And so, when you and your daughter-in-law Sarah prayed, I brought a reminder of your prayer before the Holy One; . . . I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One."
> 
> Revelation 1:4 . . . Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne,
> 
> Revelation 8:3-4 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.
> 
> *Angels Communicating to Men From Heaven
> (Thus Implying That the Reverse is Also Possible)*
> 
> Genesis 21:17-18 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven, and said to her, "What troubles you, Hagar? Fear not; for God has heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him fast with your hand; for I will make him a great nation."
> 
> Men Seeing Angels in Heaven
> 
> Genesis 28:12-13 And he dreamed that there was a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven; and behold, the angels of God were ascending and descending on it! And behold, the LORD stood above it and said, "I am the LORD, the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and to your descendants;
> 
> John 1:51 And he said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man."
> 
> Revelation 5:11 Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands,
> 
> Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round the throne and round the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
> 
> Revelation 8:2 Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.
> 
> Revelation 10:1 Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven, wrapped in a cloud, with a rainbow over his head, and his face was like the sun, and his legs like pillars of fire.
> 
> Revelation 12:7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,
> 
> Revelation 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle.
> 
> Revelation 15:1 Then I saw another portent in heaven, great and wonderful, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is ended.
> 
> Revelation 18:1 After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority; and the earth was made bright with his splendor.
> 
> Revelation 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain. (cf. also Paul's experience of being caught up to the "third heaven": 2 Cor 12:1-4)
> 
> *Protection of Angels / Guardian Angels*
> 
> Psalm 34:7 The angel of the LORD encamps around those who fear him, and delivers them.
> 
> Psalm 91:9-12 Because you have made the LORD your refuge, the Most High your habitation, no evil shall befall you, no scourge come near your tent. For he will give his angels charge of you to guard you in all your ways. On their hands they will bear you up, lest you dash your foot against a stone.
> 
> Isaiah 63:9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them; in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; he lifted them up and carried them all the days of old.
> 
> Daniel 6:22 My God sent his angel and shut the lions' mouths, and they have not hurt me, because I was found blameless before him; and also before you, O king, I have done no wrong."
> 
> Tobit 12:12b-13 . . . when you buried the dead, I was likewise present with you. When you did not hesitate to rise and leave your dinner in order to go and lay out the dead, your good deed was not hidden from me, but I was with you.
> 
> Matthew 18:10 "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven.
> 
> Luke 4:10 for it is written, `He will give his angels charge of you, to guard you,' (cf. also Matthew 26:53)


----------



## Belle Du Jour

> THE ARCHANGEL GABRIEL
> 
> The name Gabriel seems to be composed of the Hebrew words, <gebher>: man, and <'el>: God. It means, therefore, <Man of God>, or, <Strength of God.>
> 
> Practically all the missions and manifestations of this Archangel are closely connected with the coming of the Messias. The most accurate prophecy regarding the time of the coming of Christ was made by Saint Gabriel through the prophet Daniel.
> 
> Immediately before the coming of Christ we meet the Archangel Gabriel in the temple of Jerusalem, announcing to Zachary the birth of a son, John the Baptist, the precursor of Christ: "I am Gabriel, who stand before God, and am sent to speak to thee, and to bring thee these good tidings."
> 
> The greatest and by far the most joyful message ever committed to an Angel from the beginning of time, was the one brought by the Archangel Gabriel to the Virgin Mary, announcing to her the Incarnation of the Word of God and the birth of Christ, the Savior of mankind. The simplicity and heavenly grandeur of this message, as related to us by her who was the only witness to Gabriel's good tidings, should be read in full in order to understand the sublime and delicate mission of Gabriel in the work of human redemption.
> 
> It is the first time that a prince of the court of heaven greets an earthly child of God, a young woman, with a deference and respect a prince would show to his Queen. That Angel's flight to the earth marked the dawn of a new day, the beginning of a new covenant, the fulfillment of God's promises to His people: The Angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, to a virgin espoused to a man, whose name was Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgin's name was Mary."
> 
> Heavenly wisdom, tact, adroitness are evident in Gabriel's conversation with the Virgin Mary: "The Angel being come in said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee." Gabriel must overcome Mary's reaction of surprise at both his appearance and especially at his "manner of salutation." He has to prepare and dispose her pure virginal mind to the idea of maternity, and obtain her consent to become the mother of the Son of God. Gabriel nobly fulfills this task: "Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God." He calls her by her own name in order to inspire confidence and to show affection and solicitude in her perturbation. The great message is presented to her as a decree of the Most High God, a thing ordained in the eternal decree of the Incarnation, predicted centuries before by the prophets, and announced now to her as an event of imminent occurrence depending on her consent: "Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. And of his kingdom there shall be no end." From these words of the Angel, it became very evident to Mary that her son was to be the promised Messias, the Son of David. But she did not know how to reconcile her vow of virginity with the promised motherhood, hence her question: "How shall this be done, because I know not man." Gabriel's reply shows that God wanted to respect Mary's vow of virginity and thus make her a mother without a human father, in a unique and miraculous way: "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee."
> 
> As a last word of encouragement and, at the same time, a most gratifying information, the Archangel reveals to Mary that her elderly and barren cousin Elizabeth is now an expectant mother in her sixth month of pregnancy. This final argument was offered in order "to prove that nothing can be impossible with God."
> 
> Mary, unshaken in her profound humility, replied: "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word." This reply was Mary's consent, a consent awaited by heaven and earth. The Archangel Gabriel departed from Mary to bring to all the Angels the glorious tidings of the Incarnation of the Word.
> 
> It seems very probable that Gabriel, the Archangel of the Annunciation, was given special charge of the Holy Family of Nazareth. He was probably the Angel who brought "good tidings of great joy" to the shepherds "keeping night watches over their flock," the night that Christ was born of the Virgin Mary in Bethlehem. We notice, on this occasion, the same procedure of first assuaging fear and surprise, as had been the case at Mary's Annunciation by Gabriel: "Fear not, for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy.... This day is born to you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord, in the city of David." Who else could be the messenger of such good tidings, but he who had promised them through the prophet Daniel, and announced them to Mary, Gabriel the Archangel?
> 
> Having delivered the joyful message, the Archangel is joined suddenly by a vast multitude of the heavenly hosts, singing for the first time in this valley of tears the canticle of the celestial Sion. It was fitting that the Archangel of Redemption should intone the canticle of human redemption: "Suddenly there was with the Angel a multitude of the heavenly army, praising God, and saying: Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to men of good will."
> 
> Gabriel's duties towards the Messias did not come to an end with his birth. Gabriel was probably the Angel who "appeared in sleep to Joseph," first in Bethlehem when he warned him saying: "Arise, and take the child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be there until I shall tell you. For it will come to pass that Herod will seek the child to destroy him." After the death of Herod the Angel appeared to Joseph again in Egypt to tell him to bring the child and his mother back into the land of Israel.
> 
> Gabriel who is "the strength of God" must have been the Angel mentioned by Saint Luke, in his narrative of Christ's agony in the garden: "And there appeared to him an Angel from heaven, strengthening him." It was fitting that the Angel who had witnessed the Savior's agony, and who had announced His coming to both the Old and New Testament, should also be the first to announce to the world the Savior's Resurrection, His triumph over sin and death on Easter morning: "An Angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and coming rolled back the stone, and sat upon it. And his countenance was as lightning, and his raiment as snow."
> 
> It is very probable that the Archangel Gabriel is meant when Saint Paul speaks of the second coming of Christ at the end of the world, when Saint Michael's struggle with Satan shall be over, and when all the physical and spiritual remedies of Saint Raphael are needed no more. It would seem that of the three
> 
> Archangels known to us, Saint Gabriel is the one who with a mighty voice will call the dead to life and to judgment: "The Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment, and with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead who are in Christ shall rise first." The voice of the Archangel and the trumpet of God seem to be the same thing, having the purpose to convey the divine command to the dead to rise again by the power of the Almighty God. The resurrection of "the dead who are in Christ" is the harvest, the gathering of the fruits of Redemption. Gabriel, who helped along during the long day of man's life on earth, in preparing man for the work of Redemption by the Messias, would seem to be the first among the Angels who are sent out to gather the elect from the four corners of the earth.


----------



## Galadriel

LOVE this! Thank you ladies!


----------



## auparavant

For some reason, I couldn't pull up that thread where there were many posts about Our Lady.  But someone asked me about faith today and this person is an avid atheist, no spirit in man kinda stuff. He keeps asking me on why I believe it.  Well, I decided to answer him today.   Only thing I could tell him after thinking long and hard (because I am sensitive to harshness and never liked that myself}...I gave him my Mother Mary as a gentler approach - a truth that I have found - and as a prayer for her to lead him to her Son, Jesus. He asked me graciously, that was my answer.  I am hoping for Our Lady to hold his hand as she held mine when I had the same questions. If it weren't for Our Lady, I would not be here, in His Church.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNj9HD4UOe4&feature=related



  Where are you my most sweet mother? Your motherly love do I seek fervently.

My eyes are full of bitter tears, I have nobody to wipe them off.

I asked for a drink of water, but the wicked gave me vinegar instead.


----------



## auparavant

Monsignor William Blacet, 90 year old priest at Our Lady of Good Counsel, holding mass daily.  Yes, I amen that...confession every day.  It is a joy to have him as a confessor!  Plus, they have great books in the back of the sanctuary and you just leave a check or cash in the box!  LOL.  I miss them...found an old family friend there from college married housing!  Also, one of my last memories was standing there in the line, looking at the side altars and snapping that shot into my permanent memory when I knew my mom would pass away soon.  Fr. Blacet lost his own mother many years ago, when he was a small boy.  He said that he had made Mary his mother from then on.  I won't forget those words.


http://www.kansascity.com/2012/09/11/3808512/monsignor-william-blacet-90-year.html


----------



## Rsgal

There are many great Catholic Men and Women who are blessed with the gift of being great speakers.

Here are some Black Catholic Speakers : (I'm yet to find a Black Female Speaker)

* Damon Owens*

http://www.tobinstitute.org/default.asp    Theology of the Body Institute.  

Damon Owens is the founder of Joy Filled Marriage NJ a non-profit organization providing training, resources, and support for engaged and married couples. In 2005, he introduced an exciting new marriage program in NJ, God's Plan for a Joy Filled Marriage (Ascension Press), developed by Christopher West and based on the Theology of the Body. 
Damon and his wife Melanie have been teaching and promoting Natural Family Planning (NFP) from Seton Hall University and throughout New Jersey since 1993.

*Immaculee**  Ilibagiza* 
http://www.immaculee.com/
Immaculée Ilibagiza is a living example of faith put into action. Her life was transformed dramatically during the 1994 Rwandan genocide where she and seven other women spent 91 days huddled silently together in the cramped bathroom of a local pastor's house. 

Immaculée entered the bathroom a vibrant, 115-pound university student with a loving family - she emerged weighing just 65 pounds to find most of her family had been brutally murdered. 

*Deacon Harold Burke-Sivers *
http://dynamicdeacon.com/Catholic-Speaker-topics.html 

Deacon Harold Burke-Sivers is a powerful and passionate evangelist and preacher 
whose no-nonsense, hands-on approach to living the Catholic faith will challenge and inspire you!  He is the Founder and Director of DynamicDeacon.com, a Christian evangelization and apologetics organization dedicated to the dissemination and promotion of Catholic values, principles, and teaching in complete faithfulness and total submission to Holy Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium.  The goal of his apostolate is to bring as many people as possible to a deeper love of Christ and the Gospel by sharing the truth of the Catholic faith in love.

*Evangelist Richard Lane*
http://http://www.qorban.net/


Qorban Ministries was founded in 2005 by Catholic Evangelist Richard Lane and Master Catechist Donna L. Lane. Both having dedicated their lives to God, Mr. and Mrs. Lane have committed themselves to serving the poor, needy and suffering through "Preaching, Teaching and Sharing the Word of God" with the whole inhabited world.  This is the essence of evangelization.

Having begun by handing out Bibles and Preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ on the inner city streets, through the Grace of God, Qorban Ministries has gone into Baptist, Inter/Non- denominational Churches, sharing the Good News of Salvation in the truest form of ecumenism

****************************************

The website below has a list of many men and women speakes.  You may find one that will benefit your spiritual needs here.

http://brandonvogt.com/scsm12/


----------



## Rsgal

Source: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-rosary 

CATHOLICS AND ROSARY: 
The history, and all about Rosary!

The word rosary comes from Latin and means a garland of roses, the rose being one of the flowers used to symbolize the Virgin Mary. If you were to ask what object is most emblematic ... 
of Catholics, people would probably say, "The rosary, of course." We’re familiar with the images: the silently moving lips of the old woman fingering her beads; the oversized rosary hanging from the waist of the wimpled nun; more recently, the merely decorative rosary hanging from the rearview mirror. 

After Vatican II the rosary fell into relative disuse. The same is true for Marian devotions as a whole. But in recent years the rosary has made a comeback, and not just among Catholics. Many Protestants now say the rosary, recognizing it as a truly biblical form of prayer—after all, the prayers that comprise it come mainly from the Bible. 

The rosary is a devotion in honor of the Virgin Mary. It consists of a set number of specific prayers. 

First are the introductory prayers: 
one Apostles’ Creed (Credo), 
one Our Father (the Pater Noster or the Lord’s Prayer), 
three Hail Mary’s (Ave’s), 
one Glory Be (Gloria Patri). 


*The Apostles’ Creed*

The Apostles’ Creed is so called not because it was composed by the apostles themselves, but because it expresses their teachings. The original form of the creed came into use around A.D. 125, and the present form dates from the 400s. It reads this way: 

"I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell. The third day he arose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. From thence he shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen." 

Traditional Protestants are able to recite the Apostles’ Creed without qualms, meaning every line of it, though to some lines they must give meanings different from those given by Catholics, who composed the creed. For instance, we refer to "the holy Catholic Church," meaning a particular, identifiable Church on earth. Protestants typically re-interpret this to refer to an "invisible church" consisting of all "true believers" in Jesus. 

Protestants, when they say the prayer, refer to the (lower-cased) "holy catholic church," using "catholic" merely in the sense of "universal," not implying any connection with the (upper-case) Catholic Church, which is based in Rome. (This is despite the fact that the term "Catholic" was already used to refer to a particular, visible Church by the second century and had already lost its broader meaning of "universal"). 

Despite these differences Protestants embrace the Apostles’ Creed without reluctance, seeing it as embodying basic Christian truths as they understand them. 


*The Lord’s Prayer*

The next prayer in the rosary—Our Father or the Pater Noster (from its opening words in Latin), also known as the Lord’s Prayer—is even more acceptable to Protestants because Jesus himself taught it to his disciples. 

It is given in the Bible in two slightly different versions (Matt. 6:9-13; Luke 11:2-4). The one given in Matthew is the one we say. (We won’t reproduce it here. All Christians should have it memorized.) 


_*(cont'd in the next post)*_


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## Rsgal

cont'd..
*The Hail Mary

*The next prayer in the rosary, and the prayer which is really at the center of the devotion, is the Hail Mary. Since the Hail Mary is a prayer to Mary, many Protestants assume it’s unbiblical. Quite the contrary, actually. Let’s look at it. 

The prayer begins, "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee." This is nothing other than the greeting the angel Gabriel gave Mary in Luke 1:28 (Confraternity Version). The next part reads this way: 

"Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus." This was exactly what Mary’s cousin Elizabeth said to her in Luke 1:42. The only thing that has been added to these two verses are the names "Jesus" and "Mary," to make clear who is being referred to. So the first part of the Hail Mary is entirely biblical. 

The second part of the Hail Mary is not taken straight from Scripture, but it is entirely biblical in the thoughts it expresses. It reads: 

"Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen." 

Let’s look at the first words. Some Protestants do object to saying "Holy Mary" because they claim Mary was a sinner like the rest of us. But Mary was a Christian (the first Christian, actually, the first to accept Jesus; cf. Luke 1:45), and the Bible describes Christians in general as holy. In fact, they are called saints, which means "holy ones" (Eph. 1:1, Phil. 1:1, Col. 1:2). Furthermore, as the mother of Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, Mary was certainly a very holy woman. 

Some Protestants object to the title "Mother of God," but suffice it to say that the title doesn’t mean Mary is older than God; it means the person who was born of her was a divine person, not a human person. (Jesus is one person, the divine, but has two natures, the divine and the human; it is incorrect to say he is a human person.) The denial that Mary had God in her womb is a heresy known as Nestorianism (which claims that Jesus was two persons, one divine and one human), which has been condemned since the early 400s and which the Reformers and Protestant Bible scholars have always rejected. 


Another Mediator?

The most problematic line for non-Catholics is usually the last: "pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death." Many non-Catholics think such a request denies the teaching of 1 Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." But in the preceding four verses (1 Tim. 2:1-4), Paul instructs Christians to pray for each other, meaning it cannot interfere with Christ’s mediatorship: "I urge that prayers, supplications, petitions, and thanksgivings be made for everyone. . . . This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior." 

We know this exhortation to pray for others applies to the saints in heaven who, as Revelation 5:8 reveals, intercede for us by offering our prayers to God: "The twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 



*The Glory Be

*The fourth prayer found in the rosary is the Glory Be, sometimes called the Gloria or Gloria Patri. The last two names are taken from the opening words of the Latin version of the prayer, which in English reads: 

"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen." The Gloria is a brief hymn of praise in which all Christians can join. It has been used since the fourth century (though its present form is from the seventh) and traditionally has been recited at the end of each Psalm in the Divine Office. 



*The Closing Prayer
*
We’ve covered the opening prayers of the rosary. In fact, we’ve covered all the prayers of the rosary except the very last one, which is usually the Hail Queen (Salve Regina), sometimes called the Hail Holy Queen. It’s the most commonly recited prayer in praise of Mary, after the Hail Mary itself, and was composed at the end of the eleventh century. It generally reads like this (there are several variants): 

"Hail holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn, then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary." 

So those are the prayers of the rosary. Between the introductory prayers and the concluding prayer is the meat of the rosary: the decades. Each decade—there are fifteen in a full rosary (which takes about forty-five minutes to say)—is composed of ten Hail Marys. Each decade is bracketed between an Our Father and a Glory Be, so each decade actually has twelve prayers. 

Each decade is devoted to a mystery regarding the life of Jesus or his mother. Here the word mystery refers to a truth of the faith, not to something incomprehensible, as in the line, "It’s a mystery to me!" The fifteen mysteries are divided into three groups of five: the Joyful, the Sorrowful, the Glorious. When people speak of "saying the rosary" they usually mean saying any set of five (which takes about fifteen minutes) rather than the recitation of all fifteen mysteries. Let’s look at the mysteries. 


*Meditation the Key
*
First we must understand that they are meditations. When Catholics recite the twelve prayers that form a decade of the rosary, they meditate on the mystery associated with that decade. If they merely recite the prayers, whether vocally or silently, they’re missing the essence of the rosary. It isn’t just a recitation of prayers, but a meditation on the grace of God. Critics, not knowing about the meditation part, imagine the rosary must be boring, uselessly repetitious, meaningless, and their criticism carries weight if you reduce the rosary to a formula. Christ forbade meaningless repetition (Matt. 6:7), but the Bible itself prescribes some prayers that involve repetition. Look at Psalms 136, which is a litany (a prayer with a recurring refrain) meant to be sung in the Jewish Temple. In the psalm the refrain is "His mercy endures forever." Sometimes in Psalms 136 the refrain starts before a sentence is finished, meaning it is more repetitious than the rosary, though this prayer was written directly under the inspiration of God. 

It is the meditation on the mysteries that gives the rosary its staying power. The Joyful Mysteries are these: the Annunciation (Luke 1:26-38), the Visitation (Luke 1:40-56), the Nativity (Luke 2:6-20), the Presentation of Jesus in the Temple (Luke 2:21-39), and the Finding of the child Jesus in the Temple (Luke 2:41-51). 

Then come the Sorrowful Mysteries: the Agony in the Garden (Matt. 26:36-46), the Scourging (Matt. 27:26), the Crowning with Thorns (Matt. 27:29), the Carrying of the Cross (John 19:17), and the Crucifixion (Luke 23:33-46). 

The final Mysteries are the Glorious: the Resurrection (Luke 24:1-12), the Ascension (Luke 24:50-51), the Descent of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:1-4), the Assumption of Mary into heaven (Rev. 12), and her Coronation (cf. Rev. 12:1). 

With the exception of the last two, each mystery is explicitly scriptural. True, the Assumption and Coronation of Mary are not explicitly stated in the Bible, but they are not contrary to it, so there is no reason to reject them out of hand. Given the scriptural basis of most of the mysteries, it’s little wonder that many Protestants, once they understand the meditations that are the essence of the rosary, happily take it up as a devotion. We’ve looked at the prayers found in the rosary and the mysteries around which it is formed. Now let’s see how it was formed historically. 



*The Secret of Paternoster Row

*It’s commonly said that St. Dominic, the founder of the Order of Preachers (the Dominicans), instituted the rosary. Not so. Certain parts of the rosary predated Dominic; others arose only after his death. 

Centuries before Dominic, monks had begun to recite all 150 psalms on a regular basis. As time went on, it was felt that the lay brothers, known as the conversi, should have some form of prayer of their own. They were distinct from the choir monks, and a chief distinction was that they were illiterate. Since they couldn’t read the psalms, they couldn’t recite them with the monks. They needed an easily remembered prayer. 

The prayer first chosen was the Our Father, and, depending on circumstances, it was said either fifty or a hundred times. These conversi used rosaries to keep count, and the rosaries were known then as Paternosters ("Our Fathers"). 

In England there arose a craftsmen’s guild of some importance, the members of which made these rosaries. In London you can find a street, named Paternoster Row, which preserves the memory of the area where these craftsmen worked. 

The rosaries that originally were used to count Our Fathers came to be used, during the twelfth century, to count Hail Marys—or, more properly, the first half of what we now call the Hail Mary. (The second half was added some time later.) 

Both Catholics and non-Catholics, as they learn more about the rosary and make more frequent use of it, come to see how its meditations bring to mind the sweet fragrance not only of the Mother of God, but of Christ himself. 

NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004

Source: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-rosary


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## Belle Du Jour

Rsgal, thanks for posting.  I didn't realize Protestants were into the Rosary too!  I've heard a lot say it's "empty prayers" or "vain repetition."   It is so powerful to reflect on/contemplate the life of Christ.  For anyone interested, I downloaded free rosary mp3s for my mp3 player and now I can listen to the Rosary anywhere!  I specifically got the scriptural ones that say a bible verse before each prayer.   Just google for it.  I also found a downloadable St. Michael's chaplet for my mp3 for free.


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## auparavant

The vast majority of them are not into the rosary at all.  I've also heard "vain repetition" for that as well as litanies, even for our liturgy and own personal spiritual relationship with G-d.  But those are just some individuals barking...most will not tell you they think you're going to hell anyway.  Unfortunately, I've heard the same crap from some catholics against protestants.  Eh, can't we all just get along but stay out of my lane.  LOLOL!  I'm very happy that G-d is just and KIND.  NOne of us deserve heaven.  He's taking care of those who live the truth written on their hearts and minds from the teachings they have received to the best of their abilities.


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## auparavant

A very humorous look at our faith and the eucharist!!!

http://youtu.be/hEf_DsbkaTA


Divine Comedy: Brian Regan and the Eucharist
Posted by Andrew Sciba on Sep 24, 2012 in The Faith | Comments 2 comments

via Brian Regan:

    I was at the park and saw a family with a five-year-old boy holding a helium balloon.  He accidentally let go of his balloon – the boy started crying and his parents were like, “Why are you crying – it’s a balloon.  We’ll get you another one.”

    Sometimes, I don’t think adults try hard enough to understand what kids are going through.  If you wanted to relate to what he’s going through, imagine if you took your wallet out – and it just started floating away.

    “AHHHHHHH!!!”

    “Why are you acting like that?  It’s just a wallet, we’ll get you another one–”

    “I WANT THAT ONE!!!”

Naturally, what the parents don’t understand in the above routine is the perceived value that the child has in the balloon.  Isn’t it often tempting to look to the plight of another person and discount their situation so that it becomes more palatable to ourselves?  Similarly, we can look to major events in life and give them a shrug; if we engage them fully, we might be required to engage in the difficult process of personal growth.  Sometimes, it’s easier to keep our head in the sand.

I recall a time in my life when (way before I was tending to wild children) I would kneel in Mass during the Eucharistic prayer, blink, and the priest would sing, “Through Him, with Him, in Him…”  Admittedly, there are still times when I realize that I’m next in the communion line and I hurriedly askGodtopreparemyheart”Amen.”  This is, of course, unfortunate.  What greater or more important reality than the Eucharist is there that is so often not perceived?  How would a devotion to the Eucharist look in a person’s life?


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## Rsgal

*THE UNIVERSAL CATHOLIC CHURCHES*

THE CATHOLIC COMMUNION OF CHURCHES.

A lot of people (Catholics and Non Catholics) are usually under the impression that the Catholic Church comprises of just the Roman Catholic Church. 

That's not so. 

[SIZE=+2]_*There are 22 rites in the universal Catholic Church, the 21 rites comprising the Eastern Catholic Churches, and the other 1 is the Latin Western rite. *_​






*http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/catholic_rites_and_churches.htm*​ 
*CATHOLIC RITES AND CHURCHES*

Christ, having been lifted up from the earth has drawn all men to Himself. Rising from the dead He sent His life–giving Spirit upon His disciples and through Him has established His Body which is the Church as the universal sacrament of salvation. Sitting at the right hand of the Father, He is continually active in the world that He might lead men to the Church and through it join them to Himself and that He might make them partakers of His glorious life by nourishing them with His own Body and Blood. [Vatican Council II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church _Lumen gentium_ 48]
*RITES*​A Rite represents an ecclesiastical, or church, tradition about how the sacraments are to be celebrated. Each of the sacraments has at its core an essential nature which must be satisfied for the sacrament to be confected or realized. This essence – of matter, form and intention – derives from the divinely revealed nature of the particular sacrament. It cannot be changed by the Church. Scripture and Sacred Tradition, as interpreted by the Magisterium, tells us what is essential in each of the sacraments (2 Thes. 2:15). 

When the apostles brought the Gospel to the major cultural centers of their day the essential elements of religious practice were inculturated into those cultures. This means that the essential elements were clothed in the symbols and trappings of the particular people, so that the rituals conveyed the desired spiritual meaning to that culture. In this way the Church becomes _all things to all men that some might be saved_ (1 Cor. 9:22). 
There are three major groupings of Rites based on this initial transmission of the faith, the *Roman*, the *Antiochian* (Syria) and the *Alexandrian* (Egypt). Later on the *Byzantine* derived as a major Rite from the Antiochian, under the influence of St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom. From these four derive the over 20 liturgical Rites present in the Church today. 

*CHURCHES* 
A Church is an _assembly_ of the faithful, hierarchically ordered, both in the entire world – the _Catholic Church_, or in a certain territory – a _particular Church._ To be a sacrament (a sign) of the Mystical Body of Christ in the world, a Church must have both a head and members (Col. 1:18). The sacramental sign of Christ the Head is the sacred hierarchy – the bishops, priests and deacons (Eph. 2:19–22). More specifically, it is the local bishop, with his priests and deacons gathered around and assisting him in his office of teaching, sanctifying and governing (Mt. 28:19–20; Titus 1:4–9). The sacramental sign of the Mystical Body is the Christian faithful. Thus the Church of Christ is fully present sacramentally (by way of a sign) wherever there is a sign of Christ the Head, a bishop and those who assist him, and a sign of Christ's Body, Christian faithful. Each diocese is therefore a _particular _Church.​ 
The Church of Christ is also present sacramentally in _ritual Churches_ that represent an ecclesiastical tradition of celebrating the sacraments. They are generally organized under a Patriarch, who together with the bishops and other clergy of that ritual Church represent Christ the Head to the people of that tradition. In some cases a Rite is completely coincident with a Church. For example, the Maronite Church with its Patriarch has a Rite not found in any other Church. In other cases, such as the Byzantine Rite, several Churches use the same or a very similar liturgical Rite. For example, the Ukrainian Catholic Church uses the Byzantine Rite, but this Rite is also found in other Catholic Churches, as well as the Eastern Orthodox Churches not in union with Rome.


Finally, the Church of Christ is sacramentally present in the _Universal or Catholic Church_ spread over the entire world. It is identified by the sign of Christ our Rock, the Bishop of Rome, Successor of St. Peter (Mt. 16:18). To be _Catholic_ particular Churches and ritual Churches must be in communion with this Head, just as the other apostles, and the Churches they founded, were in communion with Peter (Gal. 1:18). Through this communion with Peter and his successors the Church becomes a _universal_ sacrament of salvation in all times and places, _even to the end of the age_ (Mt. 28:20).​ 
*(cont'd)* 




[/SIZE]


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## Rsgal

*Western Rites and Churches*

Immediately subject to the Bishop of Rome, the Supreme Pontiff, who exercises his authority over the liturgy through the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments.​


*ROMAN/LATIN FAMILY OF LITURGICAL RITES*
​The Church of Rome is the Primatial See of the world and one of the five Patriarchal Sees of the early Church (Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem). Founded by St. Peter in 42 AD it was consecrated by the blood of Sts. Peter and Paul during the persecution of Nero (63–67 AD). It has maintained a continual existence since then and is the source of a family of Rites in the West. Considerable scholarship (such as that of Fr. Louis Boyer in _Eucharist_) suggests the close affinity of the Roman Rite proper with the Jewish prayers of the synagogue, which also accompanied the Temple sacrifices. While the origin of the current Rite, even in the reform of Vatican II, can be traced directly only to the 4th century, these connections point to an ancient apostolic tradition brought to that city that was decidedly Jewish in origin. 

After the Council of Trent it was necessary to consolidate liturgical doctrine and practice in the face of the Reformation. Thus, Pope St. Pius V imposed the Rite of Rome on the Latin Church (that subject to him in his capacity as Patriarch of the West), allowing only smaller Western Rites with hundreds of years of history to remain. Younger Rites of particular dioceses or regions ceased to exist. ​ 
As a consequence of the Second Vatican Council's_ Dogmatic Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, _Pope Paul VI undertook a reform of the Mass of the Roman Rite, promulgating a revised rite with the Missal of 1970. This Missal has since been modified twice (1975 and 2002). Mass celebrated in accordance with this missal is the _Ordinary Form_ of the Roman Rite.

At the time of the revised Missal's promulgation in 1970 almost all Catholics assumed that the previous rite, that of the Missal of 1962, had been abolished. By decision of the Supreme Pontiff Benedict XVI this general assumption has been declared false and the right of Latin Rite priests to celebrate Mass according to the former missal has been affirmed (Apostolic Letter _Summorum Pontificum, _7 July 2007). Mass celebrated in accordance with the Missal of 1962 constitutes the _Extraordinary Form_ of the Roman Rite.

*• Roman* – The overwhelming majority of Latin Catholics and of Catholics in general. ​ 
– *Ordinary Formof the Roman Rite*_*.* _Mass celebrated in accordance with the _Missale Romanum_ of 1970, promulgated by Pope Paul VI, currently in its third edition (2002). The vernacular editions of this Missal, as well as the rites of the other sacraments, are translated from the Latin _typical editions_ revised after the Second Vatican Council. ​ 

–* Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite*_. _Mass celebrated in accordance with the _Missale Romanum_ of 1962, promulgated by Blessed Pope John XXIII. The other sacraments are celebrated according to the Roman Ritual in force at the time of the Second Vatican Council. The Extraordinary Form is most notable for being almost entirely in Latin. In addition to institutes which have the faculty to celebrate the Extraordinary Form routinely, such as the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter and the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest, any Latin Rite priest may now offer the Mass and other sacraments in accordance with norms of _Summorum Pontificum_. ​ 

– *Anglican Use.* Since the 1980s the Holy See has granted some former Anglican and Episcopal clergy converting with their parishes the faculty of celebrating the sacramental rites according to Anglican forms, doctrinally corrected.​ 


•* Mozarabic* – The Rite of the Iberian peninsula (Spain and Portugal) known from at least the 6th century, but probably with roots to the original evangelization. Beginning in the 11th century it was generally replaced by the Roman Rite, although it has remained the Rite of the Cathedral of the Archdiocese of Toledo, Spain, and six parishes which sought permission to adhere to it. Its celebration today is generally semi–private.​ 

• *Ambrosian* – The Rite of the Archdiocese of Milan, Italy, thought to be of early origin and probably consolidated, but not originated, by St. Ambrose. Pope Paul VI was from this Roman Rite. It continues to be celebrated in Milan, though not by all parishes.​ 

•*Bragan *– Rite of the Archdiocese of Braga, the Primatial See of Portugal, it derives from the 12th century or earlier. It continues to be of occasional use.​ 

• *Dominican *– Rite of the Order of Friars Preacher (OP), founded by St. Dominic in 1215.​ 

• *Carmelite* – Rite of the Order of Carmel, whose modern foundation was by St. Berthold c.1154.​ 
• *Carthusian* – Rite of the Carthusian Order founded by St. Bruno in 1084.


*(cont'd) *


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## Rsgal

*Eastern Rites and Churches*​ 

The Eastern Catholic Churches have their own hierarchy, system of governance (synods) and general law, the _Code of Canons for the Eastern Churches_. The Supreme Pontiff exercises his primacy over them through the Congregation for the Eastern Churches. ​ 

*ANTIOCHIAN FAMILY OF LITURGICAL RITES* ​

The Church of Antioch in Syria (the ancient Roman Province of Syria) is considered an apostolic See by virtue of having been founded by St. Peter. It was one of the ancient centers of the Church, as the New Testament attests, and is the source of a family of similar Rites using the ancient Syriac language (the Semitic dialect used in Jesus' time and better known as Aramaic). Its Liturgy is attributed to St. James and the Church of Jerusalem.​ 


*1. WEST SYRIAC*​ 
• *Maronite* – Never separated from Rome. Maronite Patriarch of Antioch. The liturgical language is Aramaic. The 3 million Maronites are found in Lebanon (origin), Cyprus, Egypt, Syria, Israel, Canada, US, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina and Australia.​ 

• *Syriac* – Syriac Catholics who returned to Rome in 1781 from the monophysite heresy. Syriac Patriarch of Antioch. The 110,000 Syriac Catholics are found in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Egypt, Canada and the US.​ 

• *Malankarese* – Catholics from the South of India evangelized by St. Thomas, uses the West Syriac liturgy. Reunited with Rome in 1930. Liturgical languages today are West Syriac and Malayalam. The 350,000 Malankarese Catholics are found in India and North America.​ 


*2. EAST SYRIAC*​ 
• *Chaldean* – Babylonian Catholics returned to Rome in 1692 from the Nestorian heresy. Patriarch of Babylon of the Chaldeans. Liturgical languages are Syriac and Arabic. The 310,000 Chaldean Catholics are found in Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Turkey and the US.​ 

• *Syro–Malabarese* – Catholics from Southern India using the East Syriac liturgy. Returned to Rome in the 16th century from the Nestorian heresy. Liturgical languages are Syriac and Malayalam. Over 3 million Syro–Malabarese Catholics can be found in the state of Kerela, in SW India.​ 

*BYZANTINE FAMILY OF LITURGICAL RITES*​ 
The Church of Constantinople became the political and religious center of the eastern Roman Empire after the Emperor Constantine built a new capital there (324–330) on the site of the ancient town of Byzantium. Constantinople developed its own liturgical rite from the Liturgy of St. James, in one form as modified by St. Basil, and in a more commonly used form, as modified by St. John Chrysostom. After 1054, except for brief periods of reunion, most Byzantine Christians have not been in communion with Rome. They make up the Orthodox Churches of the East, whose titular head is the Patriarch of Constantinople. The Orthodox Churches are mostly auto–cephalous, meaning self–headed, united to each other by communion with Constantinople, which exercises no real authority over them. They are typically divided into Churches along nation lines. Those that have returned to communion with the Holy See are represented among the Eastern Churches and Rites of the Catholic Church.​ 



*1. ARMENIAN*​ 
Considered either its own Rite or an older version of the Byzantine. Its exact form is not used by any other Byzantine Rite. It is composed of Catholics from the first people to convert as a nation, the Armenians (N.E. of Turkey), and who returned to Rome at the time of the Crusades. Patriarch of Cilicia of the Armenians. The liturgical language is classical Armenian. The 350,000 Armenian Catholics are found in Armenia, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Turkey, Egypt, Greece, Ukraine, France, Romania, United States and Argentina. Most Armenians are Orthodox, not in union with Rome.​ 

*2. BYZANTINE*​ 
• *Albanian* – Albanian Christians, numbering only 1400 today, who resumed communion with Rome in 1628. Liturgical language is Albanian. Most Albanian Christians are Albanian Orthodox.​ 

• *Belarussian/Byelorussian* – Unknown number of Belarussians who returned to Rome in the 17th century. The liturgical language is Old Slavonic. The faithful can be found in Belarus, as well as Europe, the Americas and Australia.​ 

• *Bulgarian* – Bulgarians who returned to Rome in 1861. Liturgical language is Old Slavonic. The 20,000 faithful can be found in Bulgaria. Most Bulgarian Christians are Bulgarian Orthodox.​ 

• *Czech* – Czech Catholics of Byzantine Rite organized into a jurisdiction in 1996.​ 

• *Krizevci* – Croatian Catholics of Byzantine Rite who resumed communion with Rome in 1611. The liturgical language is Old Slavonic. The 50,000 faithful can be found in Croatia and the Americas. Most Croatians are Roman (Rite) Catholics.​ 

• *Greek* – Greek Christians who returned to Rome in 1829. The liturgical language is Greek. Only 2500 faithful in Greece, Asia Minor (Turkey) and Europe. Greek Christians are almost all Orthodox, whose Patriarch is the Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople.​ 

• *Hungarian* – Descendants of Ruthenians who returned to Rome in 1646. The liturgical languages are Greek, Hungarian and English. The 300,000 faithful are found in Hungary, Europe and the Americas.​ 

*• Italo–Albanian* – Never separated from Rome, these 60,000 Byzantine Rite Catholics are found in Italy, Sicily and the Americas. The liturgical languages are Greek and Italo–Albanian.​ 

• *Melkite* – Catholics from among those separated from Rome in Syria and Egypt who resumed Communion with Rome at the time of the Crusades. However, definitive union only came in the 18th century. Melkite Greek Patriarch of Damascus. Liturgical languages are Greek, Arabic, English, Portuguese and Spanish. The over 1 million Melkite Catholics can be found in Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Israel, Canada, US, Mexico, Brazil, Venezuela, Argentina and Australia.​ 

• *Romanian* – Romanians who returned to Rome in 1697. The liturgical language is Romanian. There are over 1 million Romanian Catholics in Romania, Europe and the Americas. Most Romanian Christians are Romanian Orthodox.​ 

• *Russian* – Russians who returned to communion with Rome in 1905. The liturgical language is Old Slavonic. An unknown number of the faithful in Russia, China, the Americas and Australia. Most Russian Christians are Russian Orthodox, whose Patriarch is the Orthodox Patriarch of Moscow.​ 

• *Ruthenian* – Catholics from among those separated from Rome in Russia, Hungary and Croatia who reunited with Rome in 1596 (Brest–Litovsk) and 1646 (Uzhorod).​ 

• *Slovak* – Byzantine Rite Catholics of Slovakian origin numbering 225,000 and found in Slovakia and Canada.​ 

• *Ukrainian* – Catholics from among those separated from Rome by the Greek Schism and reunited about 1595. Patriarch or Metropolitan of Lviv. Liturgical languages are Old Slavonic and the vernacular. The 5.5 million Ukrainian Catholics can be found in Ukraine, Poland, England, Germany, France, Canada, US, Brazil, Argentina and Australia. During the Soviet era Ukrainian Catholics were violently forced to join the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. Their hierarchy, which continued to exist outside the homeland, has since been re–established in Ukraine.​ 
* (cont'd)*


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## Rsgal

(con't)

*ALEXANDRIAN FAMILY OF LITURGICAL RITES*The Church of Alexandria in Egypt was one of the original centers of Christianity, since like Rome and Antioch it had a large Jewish population which was the initial object of apostolic evangelization. Its Liturgy is attributed to St. Mark the Evangelist, and shows the later influence of the Byzantine Liturgy, in addition to its unique elements.


• *Coptic* – Egyptian Catholics who returned to communion with Rome in 1741. The Patriarch of Alexandria leads the 200,000 faithful of this ritual Church spread throughout Egypt and the Near East. The liturgical languages are Coptic (Egyptian) and Arabic. Most Copts are not Catholics.​ 

• *Ethiopian/Abyssinian* – Ethiopian Coptic Christians who returned to Rome in 1846. The liturgical language is Geez. The 200,000 faithful are found in Ethiopia, Eritrea, Somalia, and Jerusalem.​ 

revised 22 August 2007

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/catholic_rites_and_churches.htm
_________________________________________

*These individual Catholic Churches, both Eastern and Western, while they form the universal **Church** of Jesus Christ, each have a distinctive rite or tradition, namely in liturgy, in ecclesiastical discipline, and in spiritual tradition. For example, Eastern Catholics (and Orthodox) generally refer to the Eucharistic Celebration as the Divine Liturgy, whereas the Lamb's Supper is called the Mass in the Latin rite of Rome. *​


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## Belle Du Jour

To me, the fact that all these rites exist in the far corners of the earth is a wonderful testament to the triumph of those 12 men who took up the Great Commission to spread Christianity far and wide.  The church is truly universal!


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## Belle Du Jour

Let's talk about the powerful Sign of the Cross!



> "Let us *not then be ashamed to confess the Crucified*. Be the Cross *our seal *made with boldness by our fingers on our brow and in everything; over the bread we eat, and the cups we drink; in our comings in, and goings out; before our sleep, when we lie down and when we awake; when we are in the way and when we are still. Great is that preservative; it is without price, for the poor's sake; without toil, for the sick, since also its grace is from God. It is the Sign of the faithful, and the dread of evils; for He has triumphed over them in it, having made a shew of them openly; for when they see the Cross, they are reminded of the Crucified; they are afraid of Him, Who hath bruised the heads of the dragon. Despise not the Seal, because of the freeness of the Gift; but for this rather honor thy Benefactor."
> -- St. Cyril of Jerusalem, A.D. *315 - 386*
> 
> 
> Self-described "Torah-true Jews" to this day wear tefillin ("phylacteries") on their foreheads and arms as a sign of their identity and devotion. This practice stems from Deuteronomy 6:4-8:
> 
> Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole strength. And these words which I command thee this day, shall be in thy heart: And thou shalt tell them to thy children, and thou shalt meditate upon them sitting in thy house, and walking on thy journey, sleeping and rising. And thou shalt bind them as a sign on thy hand, and they shall be and shall move between thy eyes.
> 
> Compare those words with the words of St. Cyril, Bishop of Jerusalem (d. A.D. 386)
> 
> Let us, therefore, not be ashamed of the Cross of Christ; but though another hide it, do thou openly seal it upon thy forehead, that the devils may behold the royal sign and flee trembling far away. Make then this sign at eating and drinking, at sitting, at lying down, at rising up, at speaking, at walking: in a word, at every act.
> 
> God speaking, through Ezechiel, to the remnant of Israel (and don't forget that the Church is "Israel"!), tells the faithful:
> 
> And the Lord said to him: Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem: and* mark Thau upon the foreheads* of the men that sigh, and mourn for all the abominations that are committed in the midst thereof. (Ezechiel 9:4)
> 
> Crossing one's self is good public witness! Do not be ashamed of it! To be ashamed of the sign of His Cross is to be ashamed of Him!
> 
> The Catholic Sign of the Cross is absolutely ancient, rooted not only in the Old Testament but the New (*Apocalypse speaks of those who have the sign of God in their foreheads* -- and those who have the sign of the Beast in their foreheads). When Catholics undergo the Sacrament of Confirmation, the Bishop (sometimes a priest) seals the sign on our foreheads with holy chrism. St. John of Damascus wrote
> 
> This was given to us as a sign on our forehead, just as the circumcision was given to Israel: for by it we believers are separated and distinguished from unbelievers.
> 
> Vocabulary
> 
> to "cross oneself," "sign oneself," "bless oneself," or "make the sign of the cross" all mean the same thing
> 
> Crossing one's self recalls this seal, and the invocation that is said while making this holy sign calls on our God -- the Father, His Son, and the Holy Ghost -- and is a sign of our of belief; it is both a "mini-creed" that asserts our belief in the Triune God, and a prayer that invokes Him. The use of holy water when making this sign, such as we do when we enter a church, also recalls our Baptism and should bring to mind that we are born again of water and Spirit, thanks be to God.
> 
> Because of what the Sign indicates -- the very Cross of our salvation -- Satan hates it, and our using it makes demons flee. Make the Sign in times of temptation and confusion for great spiritual benefit!
> 
> The Sign of the Cross is made thus: First choose your style:
> 
> Option A. With your right hand, touch the thumb and ring finger together, and hold your index finger and middle finger together to signify the two natures of Christ. This is the most typical Western Catholic practice.
> 
> Option B. Hold your thumb and index finger of your right hand together to signify the two natures of Christ
> 
> Option C. Hold your thumb, index finger, middle finger of your right hand together (signifying the Trinity) while tucking the ring finger and pinky finger (signifying the two natures of Christ) toward your palm. This is the typically Eastern Catholic practice.
> 
> Option D: Hold your right hand open with all 5 fingers -- representing the 5 Wounds of Christ -- together and very slightly curved, and thumb slightly tucked into palm
> 
> Then:
> 
> touch the forehead as you say (or pray mentally) "In nomine Patris" ("In the name of the Father")
> 
> touch the breastbone or top of the belly as you say "et Filii" ("and of the Son")
> 
> 
> touch the left shoulder, then right shoulder, as you say "et Spiritus Sancti" ("and of the Holy Ghost"). Note that some people end the Sign by crossing the thumb over the index finger to make a cross, and then kissing the thumb as a way of "kissing the Cross."
> 
> An optional prayer to pray after signing yourself in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is this one, said to be favored by St. Benedict:
> 
> By the Sign of the Cross, deliver me from my enemies, O Lord.
> 
> Note that Eastern Catholics (and Orthodox) go from right shoulder to left and end sometimes by touching their right side, above the hip, to symbolize Christ's being pierced by the sword. The Bridgettine nuns in their Myroure of our Ladye write of the mystical reasons for the Latin practice, and how it summarizes the Incarnation, the Passion, and the Ascension:
> 
> And then ye bless you with the sygne of the holy crosse, to chase away the fiend with all his deceytes. For, as Chrysostome sayth, wherever the fiends see the signe of the crosse, they flye away, dreading it as a staffe that they are beaten withall. And in thys blessinge ye beginne with youre hande at the hedde downwarde, and then to the lefte side and byleve that our Lord Jesu Christe came down from the head, that is from the Father into erthe by his holy Incarnation, and from the erthe into the left syde, that is hell, by his bitter Passion, and from thence into his Father's righte syde by his glorious Ascension. (Catholic Encyclopedia)
> 
> With the Sign, we send a visible sign to the world and follow the advice of St. Ephrem of Syria (died A.D. 373):
> 
> *Mark all your actions with the sign of the lifegiving Cross*. Do not go out from the door of your house till you have signed yourself with the Cross. Do not neglect that sign whether in eating or drinking or going to sleep, or in the home or going on a journey. There is no habit to be compared with it. Let it be a protecting wall round all your conduct, and teach it to your children that they may earnestly learn the custom.
> 
> 
> When the Sign is Made
> 
> A partial indulgence is gained, under the usual conditions, when piously making the Sign of the Cross
> 
> Catholics should begin and end their prayers with the Sign of the Cross and should cross themselves when passing a church to honor Jesus in the Tabernacle, upon entering a church, and after receving Communion. The sign is made, too, in times of trouble or fear (e.g., when receiving bad news, in times of temptation, when hearing an ambulance or fire truck go by), when passing a cemetery or otherwise recalling the dead, when seeing a Crucifix -- any time one wishes to honor and invoke God, or ward away evil, fear, and temptation.
> 
> Just for information's sake, the "Distaff Gospels," a collection of old wives tales collected ca. 1470, relate the following in its fifteenth chapter.
> 
> If in the morning, when getting up, a person crosses themselves and washes their hands before leaving the house, the devil will not have the power of harming him or her. Otherwise, whatever the work is done on that day will not be profitable.
> 
> ...About that, Geffrine Tost Preste said that the devil sits on the table of whoever does not say grace before eating, then eats and drinks there.
> 
> 
> Other Signs of the Cross
> 
> There are other signs of the Cross that Catholics make, too. One is made by tracing a small Cross with the thumb of the right hand on people and things. This sign is especially used by parents when blessing children by tracing the sign on the children's foreheads..1 Sometimes the sign is traced by the thumb on a book of Sacred Scripture and then kissed before reading. The sign is also carved onto loaves of bread before cutting, etc.
> 
> Another sign is the large sign made in the air by bishops and priests when blessing persons or material objects.
> 
> Yet another is the series of three small Crosses traced by the thumb of the right hand -- one small Cross on the forehead, one small Cross on the lips, and one small Cross on the breast -- just before the Gospel reading at Mass. The sign on the forehead is to show that we believe the Gospel, the sign on the lips is to show that we respect the Gospel and desire to spread the Good News, and the sign on our breast is to show that we love the Gospel and want it kept in our hearts. 2
> 
> *Make the Sign of the Cross and make it often!* Teach it to your children -- even the tiniest of children. If they're infants, take their hands and make the movements for them! Making the Sign should feel as natural as breathing...



www.fisheaters.com


----------



## auparavant

The sign of the cross, in one orthodox prayer contains the Shema "Hear Israel, the L-rd our G-d, the L-rd is One"  but I can't find it.  I'm looking for that prayer ...Coptic?  I'll keep looking.  Maybe Ethiopian?  I dunno...I was at a liturgy and read the translated.  We know it...but I think we all used to say it as part of the sign of the cross.  Older traditions must still keep it.


In the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, the L-rd Our G-d is One.


My family often says the St. Michael and guardian angel prayers...and we cross with grace...we have a Mezzuzah on teh door post (contains Isaiah scriptures) and the epiphany formula on the doors...but I think I want to quickly remind them to make the sign of the cross daily.  You know how anybody's mornings go lol.  But it's a good habit. Some people have a holy water basin at their doors.


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## Belle Du Jour

auparavant said:


> The sign of the cross, in one orthodox prayer contains the Shema "Hear Israel, the L-rd our G-d, the L-rd is One"  but I can't find it.  I'm looking for that prayer ...Coptic?  I'll keep looking.  Maybe Ethiopian?  I dunno...I was at a liturgy and read the translated.  We know it...but I think we all used to say it as part of the sign of the cross.  Older traditions must still keep it.
> 
> 
> In the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, the L-rd Our G-d is One.
> 
> 
> My family often says the St. Michael and guardian angel prayers...and we cross with grace...we have a Mezzuzah on teh door post (contains Isaiah scriptures) and the epiphany formula on the doors...but I think I want to quickly remind them to make the sign of the cross daily.  You know how anybody's mornings go lol.  But it's a good habit. Some people have a holy water basin at their doors.



OK, you're speaking another language LOL.  What's a Mezzuzah and the epiphany formula?  

I don't have a font but I keep a bottle of holy water close to my door so I use it before I go out.


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## auparavant

LOL  I said a "basin."  Hahah...font, indeed.  Epiphany forumula:


is the manifestation of the incarnation of Christ with a formula you put on your door post which is a blessing written yearly..."Take (blessed) chalk (of any colour) and mark on the lintel of your front door 20 + C + M + B + 11 saying:

The three Wise Men,
C Caspar,
M Melchior,
B and Balthasar followed the star of God’s Son who became human
20 two thousand
11 and eleven years ago.
++ May Christ bless our home
++ and remain with us throughout the new year. Amen."

Mezuzah...not Isaiah...although, the first we had...we didn't have a kosher scroll and we rolled Isaiah in it shhhh...don't tell anybody lol.  But there's Deuteronomy verses written in it by the commands in 6 and 11 "The Shema"  and fixing the commands to your door post.  It's pretty much what catholics do by crossing themselves with holy water upon entering the sanctuary.  You remember where you are and whose you are.


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## Rsgal

auparavant said:


> LOL I said a "basin." Hahah...font, indeed. Epiphany forumula:
> 
> 
> is the manifestation of the incarnation of Christ with a formula you put on your door post which is a blessing written yearly..."Take (blessed) chalk (of any colour) and mark on the lintel of your front door 20 + C + M + B + 11 saying:
> 
> The three Wise Men,
> C Caspar,
> M Melchior,
> B and Balthasar followed the star of God’s Son who became human
> 20 two thousand
> 11 and eleven years ago.
> ++ May Christ bless our home
> ++ and remain with us throughout the new year. Amen."
> 
> Mezuzah...not Isaiah...although, the first we had...we didn't have a kosher scroll and we rolled Isaiah in it shhhh...don't tell anybody lol. But there's Deuteronomy verses written in it by the commands in 6 and 11 "The Shema" and fixing the commands to your door post. It's pretty much what catholics do by crossing themselves with holy water upon entering the sanctuary. You remember where you are and whose you are.


 

This is pretty new (and interesting) to me. I will share it with my bible study group next thursday.

THanks for the info.


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## auparavant

Rsgal said:


> This is pretty new (and interesting) to me. I will share it with my bible study group next thursday.
> 
> THanks for the info.





The font and Epiphany are catholic, not the mezzuzah...it's something personal we do at home.


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## auparavant

Cardinal Arinze on the Latin Mass

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqnjgg1vNgU&feature=related


Cardinal Arinze on the sacraments and salvation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=N3wNEelsgpE&NR=1


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## auparavant

Many ask, most do not comprehend, but this most compelling story is full of heart.  I feel for anyone who has been persecuted for arriving at his faith, no matter what it is:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxDumU0TSrY&feature=related


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## Belle Du Jour

auparavant said:


> Many ask, most do not comprehend, but this most compelling story is full of heart.  I feel for anyone who has been persecuted for arriving at his faith, no matter what it is:
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxDumU0TSrY&feature=related



When asked "why" he said "how do you tell God no?"  Deep. 

I've been meaning to read his book as well as the Hahn's conversion story.  I know he went through hell being a Pentecostal.  Never thought to look him up on youtube so thanks for posting this video.


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## Belle Du Jour

auparavant said:


> Many ask, most do not comprehend, but this most compelling story is full of heart.  I feel for anyone who has been persecuted for arriving at his faith, no matter what it is:
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxDumU0TSrY&feature=related



Every protestant Christian should watch this video. It's so powerful.


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## Belle Du Jour

I went to TLM today and was in church for 2.5 hours!  The 40 hours devotion started today which included a procession of the Blessed Sacrament around the church, the Litany of the saints, and then private adoration.  Here is more info about the 40 Hours Devotion:



> 4*0 Hours Devotion, or "Quarant'Ore"
> *
> The 40 Hours Devotion, introduced into Rome by St. Philip Neri in 1548, is the collective adoration of the exposed Eucharist for a period of 40 hours, in honor of the time Our Lord spent in the tomb (no single person is expected to spend 40 hours in adoration). While we say in the Creed that Christ was in the tomb for "3 days," those days are in the reckoning of the Old Testament religion, which counted any part of a day as "a day." In other words, Our Lord died at 3:00 on Friday (day one), descended into Hell (the afterworld) to save the righteous dead and was laid in the tomb on Saturday (day two), and arose on Sunday morning (day three). In modern terms, we'd say He was in the sepulcher for "1 1/2 days or so" because some of those "days" are partial days, but those who practiced the Old Testament religion, and those who practice modern Judaism, would consider that time period "3 days." Counting the time by hours, however, we can see that from 3:00 PM Friday to 6:00 AM Sunday are 40 hours.
> 
> This devotion is often practiced during the Sacred Triduum (the three days before Easter which consist of Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, and Holy Saturday), but is also offered in times surrounding other great Feasts, or on regular schedules not related to the calendar at all.
> 
> When visiting the Blessed Sacrament as the 40 Hours Devotion goes on, *we are to recite a sequence of an Our Father, a Hail Mary, and a Glory be 5 times*  oops, didn't do this -- the last cycle being for the intentions of the Holy Father. If one does this after having gone to Confession and received Communion, one recelves a plenary indulgence (under the usual conditions).



www.fisheaters.com

I will try to go back a few times tomorrow and Tuesday.


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## auparavant

http://www.todayscatholicnews.org/2012/09/dealing-with-difficult-people/


Dealing with difficult people

We all have them in our lives — those people we don’t like. People who rub us the wrong way, who push our buttons, and sometimes more seriously, people who truly are dangerous to our mental or physical health. What should we do?

Jesus tells His followers to forgive 70 times seven (Mt 18:21-23). But how?

St. Therese wanted to obey Jesus’ commandment to love one’s enemies. She shared that, in Carmel, there are no enemies, but there were some annoying people. Think of that — people can even annoy saints! There were some nuns whom St. Therese did not like, but Therese set about going out of her way to treat them lovingly just as Christ would. This should be our response to the difficult people in our lives — simply to treat those people with love, regardless of our feelings.

“But the Our Father prays ‘lead us not into temptation’ and this person is a huge temptation for me!” you may say. And indeed that very well may be true. God doesn’t ask us to seek out difficult people, just treat them with kindness and patience when we do come in contact with them.

Do you have difficulty forgiving an offense? You’ve heard the old adage “Hurt (adjective) people hurt (verb) people”? Well, there is much truth to that. Before this difficult person hurt you, he was likely hurt by someone else. This does not excuse his sin, of course, but if you view the person as God created him, an innocent soul before he was swayed by sin, it is easier to forgive.

Once we have forgiven should we forget? Yes and no. Yes, we should not dwell upon the offenses against us. We should pray for and wish the best for even those who do evil to us. However, we should not feel compelled to put ourselves in a situation where we “forget” the offense occurred and thus can be seriously hurt again. If someone has mentally or physically abused or hurt our children, our spouse or us, for example, it is not only okay to avoid that person but it is imperative that we do so. What about forgiving when the perpetrator is not penitent? Kindness should be offered, but again, no risks taken.

When thinking about dealing with difficult people, it helps to categorize them into two groups — those who are harmless and those who are dangerous. Dangerous people should clearly be avoided, but what about harmless ones? They can be some of the most annoying.

Handling harmless, annoying people is not hard. When contact is unavoidable, approach them rather than wait to be approached. Ask their opinion before they offer it. Validate them with a sincere compliment. Be firm in your boundaries and don’t feel badly about leaving when you need to do so. Don’t dwell on what annoys you about them. Brush off the annoyance by chalking it up to the differences in personalities that God has created and leave judgment of them to Him. Decide not to do to others what’s been done to you.

What if the difficult person is family, a harshly critical in-law or sibling?

Similar strategies can be applied: Listen, smile, be kind and excuse.

Listen. Listen to what the person is saying, not just the words but also his tone and the body language. Is he frustrated? Does he simply want validation of his own skills or value? Sometimes just listening softens people. It also helps you develop patience.

Smile. Smile, because smiles generally disarm unkindness and anger. Smiles demonstrate confidence. They show empathy. Smiling also helps you develop a joyful spirit.

Be kind. Be kind because you are a Catholic Christian and the difficult person is also one of God’s Divine creations. Jesus also died for the salvation of this difficult person and out of respect for that, you must be kind. Being kind helps you develop feeling kind.

Excuse. Excuse the behavior by thinking of the most empathetic reason she could have said or done what she said or did. She might have a headache. She might have just learned her husband lost his job. Give difficult people the same kind of justification you would like for yourself when you have said or done something annoying or unkind.

After listening, smiling, being kind and mentally excusing the behavior of a difficult person, sometimes you might have to just turn away. God does not ask us to be human punching bags or “take” unkind behavior.

“But to you who hear I say, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you. Bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.” — Lk 6:27-28.

Posted on September 4, 2012, to:


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## auparavant

Waits for it, waits for it....got several opposing ones today...but whatever, we know and love her and thank her for all her work on that side of the Kingdom!!!


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## Belle Du Jour

Last night at the 40 Hours devotion, I learned about the Miracle at Lanciano.  Basically, a monk in the 700s was struggling with his belief in the Real Presence.  As he said Mass, the bread and wine changed into real flesh and blood (which still exist today, over 1000 years later!).  The part that gave me goosebumps is when scientists in 1970 examined the bread and wine scientifically (under a microscope) they found myocardial tissue (HEART muscle) in the bread and the blood was indeed blood.  Both were of the same blood type AB.  Mind blown!  I know some do not believe in the Real Presence and it is truly a mystery, but it amazes me that Jesus condescends to take the appearance of bread and wine to nourish us.  I would love to do a study on the foreshadowing on the Eucharist in the Bible from Melchisidek, the high priest, to manna to the Last Supper.  I may start a new thread


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## Rsgal

*Scientism and God’s Existence: A Commentary by Fr. Barron*

I was reading the thread on OT about former atheists converting to religion and thought i would share this short video from one of my favourites Fr. Barron

http://www.ucatholic.com/apologetics/scientism-and-gods-existence/


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## auparavant

Excellent!!!!!   Thank you!!!!!^^^^^


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## Rsgal

*ARE CATHOLICS INTO THE BIBLE.*

'

Belle Du Jour , here you go. Someone shared this a couple thursday's ago during bible study. If you get a chance ps check out the website and the authors story. Pretty inspiring

http://catholicbridge.com/catholic/bible_catholics.php

Catholics and Evangelicals are in total agreement that the Bible is the Word of God. It is the most happening book on the planet. This site has over 1000 Biblical quotes on it. I love the Bible. Amen! 
Catholics and Evangelicals use the same New Testament. 
Thirty-nine books of the Old Testament books are identical. 
Catholics and Evangelicals _*can*_ get into the Word together. 
I think it is good that Evangelicals and Catholics have lively and animated discussions about the interpretation of Scripture. That's the spice of life. Evangelicals do that with each other all the time. That's part of the reason why there are so many denominations 
*What does the Catholic Church teach about Bible access and reading?*

In sections 131-133 of the Catechism we find this:
Hence "access to Sacred Scripture ought to be open wide to the Christian faithful."...Therefore, the study of the sacred page should be the very soul of sacred theology...The Church "forcefully and specifically exhorts all the Christian faithful...to learn the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ, by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures. Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.​I do not think it could be any clearer than this. The Church is telling Catholics "Read your Bibles." You may have heard that Catholics were not allowed read the Bible in earlier centuries. That is a very complicated subject that many Evangelical pastors have turned into a simplistic slogan against Catholics. In the days when peasants were illiterate, peasant Catholics depended on clergy who could read, on the Scripture stories as depicted visually on stain glass windows and statues. 
The message to Catholics of this generation, who are literate and able to read, unlike Christians in earlier centuries is "Read your Bibles." We thank our Evangelical friends for so enthusiastically getting into Scripture and helping turn the last century into an age of Bible literacy. 
*The Catholic Mass is totally Bible-centered*

The Processional March of each Mass is lead by a person holding the Cross and then a person holding the Bible up high in the air.
What many Evangelicals don't know is that each Catholic Mass has four Bible readings in it, and the Liturgy is pulled right out of Scripture (Mat 26:26-28, Mk 14:22, Lk 22:17). This layout of the Mass has continued for over a thousand years. If I follow Church advice and go to Mass everyday, I make a beautiful journey through the Bible. Perhaps by going to daily Mass we do not learn the chapter and verse numbers but it is still a wonderful exposure to Scripture. It is kind of like this. When I was a kid I did not know all the street numbers in my neighbourhood like the postman, but I knew where everybody was because I was exposed to them every day. I got to know them. By going to Mass we get a fantastic exposure to God's Word. 
Of course we have to study privately and/or in groups also and the Church instructs us to do that.

*The Catholic Church protected the Bible*

The Catholic Church protected the Bible across the ages until the Gutenberg press was invented. Century after century, Monks in Monasteries faithfully copied Scripture. They were incredibly accurate. We have a modern discovery that is a testimony to how accurate the Monks were when they copied the Bible. The "Dead Sea Scrolls" were discovered in 1947 and they date back to 200 BC. They contain Old Testament books such as Isaiah. They predate some of the Monk's copies by 1500 years. Yet the hand copied Bibles created by monks are almost identical to the Dead Sea Scrolls. This is remarkable given that the Monks were working from copies of copies. It would take each monk a lifetime to copy one Bible and thousands of faithful Catholics dedicated their lives to this work. Catholics protected the Bible over the centuries of wars, famines, plaques, the fall of Rome, fires, and threats from all sides. This was long before any other denomination existed. 
The Bible didn't just drop out of the sky, spiral bound, with an NIV sticker on it. The Catholic Church chose which books to include in the Bible in the Synod's of Hippo (393 AD) and confirmed it at Carthage (397 AD). A timeline of how the Bible came to us is here. Here are the words of Professor Peter Flint, the non-Catholic scholar who translated the only English version of the Dead Sea Scrolls which won first prize from the Washington Biblical Archeology association: 
"Without the Catholic Church you have no Bible, just a bunch of books and letters. With the Church you have the Bible!"
Even the word _Bible_ is a Catholic word. Surprisingly, the word "Bible" is _*not*_ in the Bible. It means _books_ from the Greek word βυβλος-_byblos_ meaning "papyrus", from the ancient Phoenician city of Byblos which exported papyrus, the "paper" of the day. We love the Bible. Honest! 

*Does the Catholic Church agree that the Bible is the unerring Word of God?*

The Catholic position on Scripture has always been that it is without error on faith and morals and _*also on everything else*_. It is the word of God, word for word. The imperfect people who received inspiration to write it *did not* mess up when they put the pen to paper, even though they were fallible humans. Even with the rise of science Vatican I asserted it, Pope Leo XIII, Pope Pious XII, and Vatican II all reasserted the complete inerrancy of Scripture. _The box to the right shows the councils and Popes' reaffirmation of this truth._
Some modern "theologians" at Vatican II wanted to limit the inerrancy of Scripture to "faith and morals" allowing "errors" in Scripture on historical events, dates etc... but Pope Paul VI stood by the Church's consistent position. The line "for the sake of our salvation" probably meant that God gave us Scripture for the purpose of our salvation. It does not make sense to say that God would put exactly what he wanted in Scripture and create an error there. To assume that the inspired writers made mistakes is to put the Bible on the same level as every other inspired book, which clearly it is not. 

_*(CONT'D)*_


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## Rsgal

*Why do we sometimes need help interpreting Scripture?*

Scripture says: 
Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch...reading the prophet Isaiah...[Philip] asked "do you understand what you are reading?" He replied "How can I unless someone guides me?" and he invited Philip to get in and sit beside him (Acts 8:30-31)​Philip, who was an apostle and a representative of Christ's Church, helped the Ethiopian eunuch interpret the Scripture. In the Old Testament we read:
So the Levites read from the book, from the law of God, _*with interpretation*_. _*They gave the sense*_, so that the people understood the reading. (Nehemiah 8:8 - my emphasis)​Catholics and Evangelicals agree that the Bible is the unerring word of God. Where we differ is where the burden of interpretation lies. Evangelicals follow Martin Luther’s feeling that an individual can interpret the Bible perfectly if they pray first. Catholics agree that the Holy Spirit guides our Bible reading and illuminates our understanding. I've had some amazing experiences with Scripture where the words just came alive for me. 
However, I'm not sure that every time someone picks up a Bible, prays, and starts reading, that they are surrounded by the Holy Spirit, even if they are sincere. For example, Martin Luther, after praying and reading the Bible, decided that the Book of James didn't belong in the Bible. To me this is a problem, because here is a guy prayerfully reading the Bible, who decided parts of it didn't belong there, yet he said the Bible was the unerring word of God. This seems kind of cyclical to me. In the preface to his Bible, Martin Luther said:
"the St. James' Epistle is really an epistle of straw ... for it has nothing of the nature of the Gospel about it." 

_About the Book of Revelation, Luther said:_​"I miss more than one thing in this book, and this makes me hold it to be neither apostolic nor prophetic.. . . and can nohow detect that the Holy Spirit produced it . . . there are many far better books for us to keep." ​So even for Martin Luther, Scripture alone was not enough, he acknowledged that there needed to be human authority governing it, he just thought that the authority should be him, rather than the Catholic Church.

Some Evangelicals might say that that the Bible is self-explanatory and needs no interpretation. They say, "the main things are the plain things." My response would be that the Evangelical movement itself does not support that statement. Everyone interprets Scripture the moment they pick it up. Sometimes the Holy Spirit reveals stuff to us as we study which is great. But almost all of the conflicting views among Evangelicals are forwarded by sincere honest Christians who claim to be inspired by the Holy Spirit. Surely God did not want people to have conflicting interpretations of Scripture, because that would be in conflict with the Bible itself which calls us to unity. (Jn 17:21) 

_*Each of these 33,820 denominations was formed because people came to an irreconcilable difference over the interpretation of Scripture. If Truth is not *__*relative*__* then there can be only one Truth. Therefore, not everyone who honestly feels they are led by the Holy Spirit when reading Scripture is correct. It is sad but true. *_

Ironically, the way that many Evangelical denominations have decided to have unity with each other is to agree not to look at Scriptural references that they are in disagreement about. 

To me this is an unauthentic and superficial unity, not the deep unity that we are called to. Many have written to me and said "the only thing that is important is that we agree that Jesus is Lord." I totally agree that Jesus is Lord, but if that is all we needed to know then I wonder why He gave us 1500 pages of Scripture. He could have just showed up for a day and said "I'm Lord" and did a big miracle and split, but He didn't. He taught his apostles, who were the Church, for 3 years. His apostles wrote down his words and eventually it became what we now call the Bible. I think this was Jesus' wish. 

Many "Bible believing" denominations who say "Jesus is Lord" have now ruled that Gay Marriage and abortion are OK. This includes Lutherans, some Methodist churches, the United Church, Anglicans, Episcopalians etc. That is their interpretation of Scripture. I have a problem with that. I think Jesus understood the human mind's capacity to rationalize its own wishes even with the Bible in hand, and while saying "Jesus is Lord." I believe we need a higher authority than millions of diverse and conflicting Christians with Bibles in their hands. Catholics think that the final word on the interpretation of Scripture falls on the authority to which Jesus appointed. (Mathew 16:18-19).

*Paul and Barnabus consulted the central authority of the Church on the interpretation of Scripture *

We have a Biblical example of the Church having a central interpreter in early times during the crisis of faith over circumcision. (Acts 15-16) Paul and Barnabus went to Jerusalem to settle the circumcision issue. "As they (Paul and Timothy) went through the towns they delivered to the believers the rules decided upon by the apostles and elders in Jerusalem, and they told them to obey those rules." (Acts 16:3) This is a good example of the Lord using the "Church" to decide on matters of interpretation.

*Isn't the Bible alone the only Authority? (Sola Scriptura)*

That is probably the biggest division between Catholics and Evangelicals. So I thought I should explain it a bit and not leave it hanging, 'cause I can see how it seems blasphemous for a Catholic to say the Bible is not the "only" authority. Most certainly the Bible is infallible. However, Catholics believe that the Bible itself teaches us that the Church came before the Bible. Jesus did not write any books of the Bible. Jesus chose NOT to write but rather to build his Church, and 30-60 years later He inspired the members of his Church write down the Gospels. Several hundred years after that, He inspired members of his Church to decide what books belong in the Bible. A history of the Bible is here. If Jesus inspired members of the Church to infallibly write the Bible and later infallibly decide on what writings to include in the Bible, I think He can inspire the Church to make right interpretation of Scripture on matters that are critical to our salvation. 
The following passage is often used to profess _Sola Scriptura_ (Bible alone)
"...the sacred writings that are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training" (2 Timothy 3:15-16) ​The passage simply says Scripture is inspired and useful. Catholics totally agree. Water is necessary for my existence but is it all I need? Most certainly not. Interestingly, there was no New Testament written back then so if this passage was saying Scripture is *all* we need, it would be saying that the New Testament wasn't necessary, which is obviously untrue.
Catholics believe that the "Bible alone" theory is not what the Bible teaches. 
Nowhere in the Bible does it say the Bible alone is the only authority. However, the Bible does say that Jesus founded his Church and gave it all authority. (Mat 16:18) 
Scripture says "And the Word became Flesh" (Jn1:1) It doesn't say "and the Word became paper." God became Flesh, He instituted and commissioned his Church. Later He inspired members of his Church to write, then He inspired members of the Church to discern which books to include in the Bible, and He inspired his Church to interpret it. This is what Catholics believe, and that is what _*all*_ Christians believed for the first 1500 years of Christianity. 

*(Cont'd)*


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## Rsgal

*Why does the Catholic Church think that its interpretation of Scripture is right? *

Catholics believe Jesus ordained Peter and the Apostles to be the teaching authority over God’s Word to us. We believe that God gave Peter a special Grace to teach infallibly. Jesus said "...you are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. *And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.*" (Mat 16:18). We believe that Jesus extends this grace through Peter's successors to the present day Pope. We call this special grace infallibility. We think it is a rallying point and a great source of unity that Jesus summons us to in Scripture. More Christians are in unity with Rome in this way than all the other denominations combined. 
The Catholic Church does not claim to fully understand *all *Scripture. There are many mysteries within its pages that still are not fully understood. What the Church _*is*_ saying is that whatever has been revealed to it and set out in Dogma is true. There are many areas of Scripture that are still mysteries, and therefore not defined as Dogma. There is much for the Church to learn. We believe God is not finished with us. That is why we say that the Catholic Church is on a pilgrimage. (more about that below) 
How is it possible for one organization to be confident in its claim of infallible interpretation of Scripture? Perhaps the question should be "Can God make it possible for one organization to have the power of discernment?" Could God do this if He wanted to? I believe every Christian would agree that He can do *anything*. The Church believes Jesus wanted to do this, He promised it, and He delivered. (Mat 16:18-19, 18:18, 28:20; Jn 14:16, 25, 16:13).
Catholics think that perhaps God organized the authority thing to prevent us from having a thousand variations of Catholicism based on every person who gets a conflicting insight about Scripture. If this happened, it would not be consistent with Jesus' wish for Unity. (Jn 17:20-23, 1 Cor 1:10; 12:25 Phil 1:27 Eph 4:13-15, Eph 4:5).

*Catholics take the Bible at its Word *

A Catholic friend Gary Hoge says that he discovered that in most cases where Catholics and Protestants disagree over biblical interpretation, it was, ironically, the Catholics who interpreted the Bible literally, where we Protestants gave it a figurative, allegorical interpretation. For instance:
·    When Jesus says, "You must be born of water and the Spirit," Catholics interpret this literally: "Water" equals "water," i.e., baptism. But some Protestants say that the water refers to something else, perhaps the preaching of the gospel, or even the amniotic fluid of natural child-birth. 
·    When Paul says that Jesus cleanses his church by "the washing with water," Catholics interpret this literally. "Washing with water" equals "washing with water"; another reference to baptism. But some Protestants say it refers to something else, perhaps the Scriptures. 
·    When Jesus says, "If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven," Catholics, again, interpret this literally and believe that Jesus gave his apostles the authority to forgive sins in His name. But some Protestants say that this is just a reference to the apostles' authority to preach the gospel. 
·    Again, when Jesus says, "This is my body," and "whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life," Catholics interpret this literally. The Eucharist is His body; it is truly His flesh and blood, though it does not appear to be. But most Protestants say that it remains only bread and wine (or grape juice) and that, once again, we should not take Jesus' words literally. 
·    [and I add] When the Angel Gabriel says Mary is "full of Grace", and when Mary says "all generations will call me blessed" and "my soul magnifies the Lord" we take the Bible at its word.
...It seemed to me that Catholic theology usually allowed the Bible to simply mean what it says, without the complicated exegesis and linguistic gyrations that were sometimes necessary to make it support my beliefs. _(From Gary Hoge)_ 
Catholics do believe what the Bible says.


*Is Church authority squashing the individual's private interpretation of Scripture?*

I don't think the Church is into squashing the individual. In fact it has great respect for the individual. Most of our Saints were simple individuals not in positions of power. Yet they have become great examples to the whole Church. The Church has great respect for these individuals who have said "yes" to the Lord. The Church learns from these individuals and has incorporated their interpretations of Scripture into doctrine. The Church *relies* on gifted individuals. The Church feels that God has anointed some individuals such as Thomas Aquinas with understanding. The Church goes into a process of prayer and discernment on the validity of interpretations by individuals and makes doctrine from some of the interpretations that emerge out of this official discernment.
The Church is totally cool with private interpretation of Scripture. In fact many of our doctrines were defined through the giftings of people like Thomas Aquinas and Jerome who had private revelations about the interpretation of Scripture. These insights went through a process of discernment, prayer and examination by the Church. Once accepted, they eventually helped mold our understanding of what God was saying to the Church through his Holy Word. 
The Church is also cool with guys like you and me having private revelation, if it does not conflict with sound doctrine. If we have a new insight into an area, it can be discerned, prayed over and reviewed the same way as it was for Thomas Aquinas and others who helped mold the Church's understanding of Scripture.

We have a recent example of this. Thérèse de Lisieux was a young nun who died at 24 years old. She was a "nobody" in the Church - just a little nun in a far away Carmelite convent. The Church looked at her writings and they were floored! They made her a doctor of the Church and she has influenced modern thought about the Bible in a major way. My evangelical friends will be glad to know that her greatest contribution was her total abandonment and confidence in Jesus. She had a personal relationship to Him. He was her personal Saviour.


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## Rsgal

*What about the Catholic Church's evolving understanding, isn't that relativism?*

Some Evangelicals might say that that the Bible is self-explanatory and needs no interpretation. My response would be that the Evangelical movement itself does not support that statement. I would say that that is pretty well the entire job of an Evangelical preacher, to help people interpret Scripture and put it into practice in their lives. There are presently dozens of conflicting interpretations of Bible passages by different Evangelical denominations and cell groups (i.e., the Rapture). *Everyone* interprets Scripture the moment they pick it up. Sometimes the Holy Spirit reveals stuff to us as we study which is great. But almost all of the conflicting views among Evangelicals are claimed to be revealed by the Holy Spirit. If we believe that Truth is not relative then there is only one truth. Catholics think it's better that it is interpreted by the authority to which Jesus gave the authority. (Mathew 16:18-19). The Catholic Church doesn't claim that it understands everything about Scripture. Rather, it says that what* has* been revealed and defined as Dogma is true. The Church is on a pilgrimage of faith and its understanding of the mystery of God is evolving.
What many Evangelicals do not know is that *no* mainstream Evangelical denomination agrees with the writings of the early reformers on some fundamental issues; for instance, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the role of the Eucharist, contraception, etc... Martin Luther's writings (even after the reform) are closer to Catholicism than they are to modern ECLA Lutherans. I think this clearly shows that the Evangelical understanding of Scripture has "evolved." 
Richard John Neuhaus describes the Catholic Church's *Pilgrimage of Faith* this way.
. . . the Catholic Church, knowing that theological formulations fall short of expressing the fullness of truth, trusts the continuing guidance of the Spirit in a course of doctrinal development toward the ever more adequate articulation of God's Word relative to the questions posed by the time . . .(3)
Article 66-67 of the Catechism says:
"The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ."28 Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries. ...Christian faith cannot accept "revelations" that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such "revelations".
*Evangelicals had an "evolving understanding" of Scripture regarding slavery *

Perhaps the best way to throw light upon the Catholic approach is to look a dilemma in the Protestant world in the last century. Many slave owners used Scripture to justify the slave trade. They had many Bible quotes to back it up. Some would say that people who were against slavery were against the Bible and therefore against God. However, good Christians had a revelation about the interpretation of Scripture. Careful and prayerful examination of these scriptural passages revealed that the abolition of slavery would in no way contradict Scripture. Although the Bible had not changed, its meaning on this matter sharpened. Scriptural understanding matured on this matter. After much pain, God's will on the interpretation of Scripture about slavery won out. Praise God. "Amazing Grace." (The Vatican's interpretation of Scripture always was against slavery.)
Right up until the 1500's Christians *including the reformers* such as Luther, Calvin, Wesley, and the Catholic church thought the planet earth couldn't move around the sun. They cited Scripture passages stating that the world was "immovable" therefore they felt it could not turn as Copernicus theorized. (i.e., 1 Chron 16:30, Ps 93:1, Ps 96:10, and Ps 104:5) 
Currently thousands of denominations are interpreting Scripture differently from each other, even though Scripture warns against this. (2 Peter 1:20) Each group is saying they have the correct interpretation. To me this is a perfect example of the "many truths" problem that is found in relativism. 
Catholics feel that God is not finished with humanity and that He is constantly revealing things about his Holy Word to us. The Church is on a "Pilgrimage" of faith and understanding. It is maturing and evolving. I don't think the Bible is a dusty archaic book that is frozen in time. It is the *living* word of God.

*Evangelicals often trust an "authority's" interpretation of Scripture rather than their own personal interpretation *

Not many of us understand Hebrew and Greek of 2000 years ago which is considerably different from today’s Hebrew and Greek. Each translation of the Bible is interpreted based on many historical factors such language usage of the time etc. *The Evangelical who reads the Bible in English, is already reading someone else’s interpretation of Scripture. *They trust someone else’s judgment. 
The minute we walk into Church and hear a pastor's sermon we are influenced on Bible interpretation. Every Evangelical who goes to a Bible study is being influenced by someone else's interpretation of Scripture. Every student in an Evangelical Bible College is being influenced. We must admit that we are all affected by many different influences when interpreting Scripture. And in a way, these Evangelical sources act as teaching authorities, the way the Vatican does for Catholics. 
One of my Evangelical friends used to open up the New International Bible Commentary (an authority) in order to get the "right" interpretation. This does not appear to me to be consistent with his Sola Scriptural beliefs? It seems that commentaries, concourses and even Bible studies are quite a Catholic idea in that they represent an "authoritative correct" interpretation of Scripture. Any Evangelical student in Bible college has accepted an "authoritative" interpretation of Scripture. But many of these organizations are in conflict with each other on the interpretation of Scripture even though their leaders are prayerful, brilliant, faithful and humble people. It still doesn't solve the unity problem. Who's right - they both prayerfully read their Bibles? Jesus wanted all Christians to be unified in their understanding of Scripture. We think the inspired authority explanation is more Biblical and offers a greater chance at Christian unity. 

*Why do Catholics refer to the Catechism? Why don't Catholics just use the Bible? *

If I walk into any Evangelical book store I will find abundant commentaries on the Bible. Every Evangelical seminary has hundreds of books that are studies to support the students on the interpretation of Sacred Scripture. Every denomination has statements about how it interprets Scripture. The Catechism is a synopsis of the Catholic faith. Its primary source is Scripture. Its other sources are the history and writings of the very first Christians (which we call the Church Fathers), the liturgy, and the Church's teaching authority which is called the Magisterium. If you want to know what the Church teaches about anything from _abortion_ to the _Trinity_, you will find it in the Catechism. The Catechism in no way replaces Scripture. It is dependent on Scripture.

*source:* http://catholicbridge.com/catholic/bible_catholics.php


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## Belle Du Jour

Great article Rsgal!  And thank for sharing that blog in the other thread.


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## auparavant

Controversial for some, but causing yet others to derive a deeper meaning and respect for all humanity:


http://jewishmag.com/85mag/prague/prague.htm

 The "Vav" from the Charles Bridge

By Steven Plaut

The glistening golden letters around the statue of Christ have always been a matter of controversy for Prague's Jews. The statue with the letters raised around it is a central feature on the Charles Bridge, the bridge that spans the Vltava River, joining the two halves of Prague. It was built in Prague's golden age by King Charles I, the Czech king who went on to become Charles IV of the Holy Roman Empire. The bridge is one of the artistic wonders of Prague, full of crowds admiring the statues of saints and kings bedecking the sides of the structure, long since converted into a pedestrian avenue. But the statue of Jesus has long been the center of contention.

In 1696, the Prague authorities accused a local Jewish leader, one Elias Backoffen, of blasphemy. As his punishment he was ordered to raise the funds for purchasing of gold-plated Hebrew letters, placed around the head of the statue, spelling out "Holy, Holy, Holy, the Lord of Hosts," the Kedusha from the Hebrew prayer and originating in the vision from the Book of Isaiah. The inscription was a symbolic humiliation and degradation of Prague Jews, forcing them to pay for a set of golden letters referring to God and hung around the neck of the statue of Christ.

And there they have hung ever since. Today, in post-communist twenty-first century Prague, some find the residual symbol of humiliation irritating. Others at least want it moderated and placed in historic context. Back in 2000 some local Jews requested that tables and placards be set up alongside the statue, explaining to passersby the history behind the letters, and pointing out that when Jews recite the same words they are not referring to Jesus. The Mayor of Prague agreed, and even offered to foot the bill. Local Catholic Church officials approved the idea. Tables were set up with ecumenical fanfare and goodwill.

But today the placards and tables with the explanations have long since disappeared. Alongside the statue there is a Dixieland band, playing New Orleans classics, but in Czech. Another group nearby plays soft Czech folk songs, and hustlers try to sell "art" to the tourists. The golden letters are still there. Well, all except for one. The "Vav" in the middle of the Tetragram name of God has disappeared. Despite the bridge being under 24-hour-a-day electronic surveillance, someone somehow removed the "Vav" (or "V") from the set of letters. So the golden letters now read, "Holy Holy Holy YHH of Hosts", which essentially renders the inscription to be Hebrew gibberish.


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## auparavant

Isn't that against the scripture?  No graven images?  

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/do-catholics-worship-statues

*Do Catholics Worship Statues?*


"Catholics worship statues!" People still make this ridiculous claim.  Because Catholics have statues in their churches, goes the accusation,  they are violating God’s commandment: "You shall not make for yourself a  graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or  that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:  you shall not bow down to them or serve them" (Ex. 20:4–5); "Alas, this  people have sinned a great sin; they have made for themselves gods of  gold" (Ex. 32:31). 
 It is right to warn people against the sin of idolatry when they are  committing it. But calling Catholics idolaters because they have images  of Christ and the saints is based on misunderstanding or ignorance of  what the Bible says about the purpose and uses (both good and bad) of  statues. 
 Anti-Catholic writer Loraine Boettner, in his book _Roman Catholicism_,  makes the blanket statement, "God has forbidden the use of images in  worship" (281). Yet if people were to "search the scriptures" (cf. John  5:39), they would find the opposite is true. God forbade the _worship_ _of_ statues, but he did not forbid the _religious use_ of statues. Instead, he actually _commanded_ their use in religious contexts! 

*God Said To Make Them*

 People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord _commands_ the  making of statues. For example: "And you shall make two cherubim of  gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make  them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one  end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat  shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread  out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings,  their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the  cherubim be" (Ex. 25:18–20). 
 David gave Solomon the plan "for the altar of incense made of refined  gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the  cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of  the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord  concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1  Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author  tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all,"  included statues of angels. 
 Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the  idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, "On the walls  round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses  of cherubim." 

*The Religious Uses of Images*

 During a plague of serpents sent to punish the Israelites during the  exodus, God told Moses to "make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set  it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live.  So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent  bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num.  21:8–9). 
 One had to _look_ at the bronze statue of the serpent to be  healed, which shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as  religious decorations. 
 Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to  recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s  mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example  of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues  as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for  the instruction of the illiterate. Many Protestants have pictures of  Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children.  Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events,  much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at  Christmas. 
 If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these  "graven" images, they would be practicing the "idolatry" of which they  accuse Catholics. But there’s no idolatry going on in these situations.  God forbids the_ worship_ of images as gods, but he doesn’t ban  the making of images. If he had, religious movies, videos, photographs,  paintings, and all similar things would be banned. But, as the case of  the bronze serpent shows, God does not even forbid the ritual use of  religious images. 
 It is when people begin to adore a statue as a god that the Lord becomes angry. Thus when people _did_ start  to worship the bronze serpent as a snake-god (whom they named  "Nehushtan"), the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs.  18:4). 

*What About Bowing?*

 Sometimes anti-Catholics cite Deuteronomy 5:9, where God said  concerning idols, "You shall not bow down to them." Since many Catholics  sometimes bow or kneel in front of statues of Jesus and the saints,  anti-Catholics confuse the legitimate veneration of a sacred image with  the sin of idolatry. 
 Though bowing can be used as a posture in worship, not all bowing is  worship. In Japan, people show respect by bowing in greeting (the  equivalent of the Western handshake). Similarly, a person can kneel  before a king without worshipping him as a god. In the same way, a  Catholic who may kneel in front of a statue while praying isn’t  worshipping the statue or even praying to _it_, any more than the Protestant who kneels with a Bible in his hands when praying is worshipping the Bible or praying to _it_.


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## auparavant

*Hiding the Second Commandment?*

Another charge sometimes made by Protestants is that the Catholic Church "hides" the second commandment. This is because in Catholic catechisms, the first commandment is often listed as "You shall have no other gods before me" (Ex. 20:3), and the second is listed as "You shall not take the name of the Lord in vain." (Ex. 20:7). From this, it is argued that Catholics have deleted the prohibition of idolatry to justify their use of religious statues. But this is false. Catholics simply group the commandments differently from most Protestants. 

In Exodus 20:2–17, which gives the Ten Commandments, there are actually fourteen imperative statements. To arrive at Ten Commandments, some statements have to be grouped together, and there is more than one way of doing this. Since, in the ancient world, polytheism and idolatry were always united—idolatry being the outward expression of polytheism—the historic Jewish numbering of the Ten Commandments has always grouped together the imperatives "You shall have no other gods before me" (Ex. 20:3) and "You shall not make for yourself a graven image" (Ex. 20:4). The historic Catholic numbering follows the Jewish numbering on this point, as does the historic Lutheran numbering. Martin Luther recognized that the imperatives against polytheism and idolatry are two parts of a single command. 

Jews and Christians abbreviate the commandments so that they can be remembered using a summary, ten-point formula. For example, Jews, Catholics, and Protestants typically summarize the Sabbath commandment as, "Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy," though the commandment’s actual text takes four verses (Ex. 20:8–11). 

When the prohibition of polytheism/idolatry is summarized, Jews, Catholics, and Lutherans abbreviate it as "You shall have no other gods before me." This is no attempt to "hide" the idolatry prohibition (Jews and Lutherans don’t even use statues of saints and angels). It is to make learning the Ten Commandments easier. 

The Catholic Church is not dogmatic about how the Ten Commandments are to be numbered, however. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says, "The division and numbering of the Commandments have varied in the course of history. The present catechism follows the division of the Commandments established by Augustine, which has become traditional in the Catholic Church. It is also that of the Lutheran confession. The Greek Fathers worked out a slightly different division, which is found in the Orthodox Churches and Reformed communities" (CCC 2066). 



*The Form of God?*

Some anti-Catholics appeal to Deuteronomy 4:15–18 in their attack on religious statues: "ince you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth." 

We’ve already shown that God doesn’t prohibit the making of statues or images of various creatures for religious purposes (cf. 1 Kgs. 6:29–32, 8:6–66; 2 Chr. 3:7–14). But what about statues or images that represent God? Many Protestants would say that’s wrong because Deuteronomy 4 says the Israelites did not see God under any form when he made the covenant with them, therefore we should not make symbolic representations of God either. But does Deuteronomy 4 forbid such representations? 



*The Answer Is No*

Early in its history, Israel was forbidden to make any depictions of God because he had not revealed himself in a visible form. Given the pagan culture surrounding them, the Israelites might have been tempted to worship God in the form of an animal or some natural object (e.g., a bull or the sun). 

But later God did reveal himself under visible forms, such as in Daniel 7:9: "As I looked, thrones were placed and one that was Ancient of Days took his seat; his raiment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames, its wheels were burning fire." Protestants make depictions of the Father under this form when they do illustrations of Old Testament prophecies. 

The Holy Spirit revealed himself under at least two visible forms—that of a dove, at the baptism of Jesus (Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32), and as tongues of fire, on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1–4). Protestants use these images when drawing or painting these biblical episodes and when they wear Holy Spirit lapel pins or place dove emblems on their cars. 

But, more important, in the Incarnation of Christ his Son, God showed mankind an icon of himself. Paul said, "He is the image (Greek: ikon) of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." Christ is the tangible, divine "icon" of the unseen, infinite God. 

We read that when the magi were "going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshipped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold, frankincense, and myrrh" (Matt. 2:11). Though God did not reveal a form for himself on Mount Horeb, he did reveal one in the house in Bethlehem. 

The bottom line is, when God made the New Covenant with us, he did reveal himself under a visible form in Jesus Christ. For that reason, we can make representations of God in Christ. Even Protestants use all sorts of religious images: Pictures of Jesus and other biblical persons appear on a myriad of Bibles, picture books, T-shirts, jewelry, bumper stickers, greeting cards, compact discs, and manger scenes. Christ is even symbolically represented through the Icthus or "fish emblem." 

Common sense tells us that, since God has revealed himself in various images, most especially in the incarnate Jesus Christ, it’s not wrong for us to use images of these forms to deepen our knowledge and love of God. That’s why God revealed himself in these visible forms, and that’s why statues and pictures are made of them. 



*Idolatry Condemned by the Church*

Since the days of the apostles, the Catholic Church has consistently condemned the sin of idolatry. The early Church Fathers warn against this sin, and Church councils also dealt with the issue. 

The Second Council of Nicaea (787), which dealt largely with the question of the religious use of images and icons, said, "[T]he one who redeemed us from the darkness of idolatrous insanity, Christ our God, when he took for his bride his holy Catholic Church . . . promised he would guard her and assured his holy disciples saying, ‘I am with you every day until the consummation of this age.’ . . . To this gracious offer some people paid no attention; being hoodwinked by the treacherous foe they abandoned the true line of reasoning . . . and they failed to distinguish the holy from the profane, asserting that the icons of our Lord and of his saints were no different from the wooden images of satanic idols." 

The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) taught that idolatry is committed "by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them" (374). 

"Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God’" (CCC 2114). 

The Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry. What anti-Catholics fail to recognize is the distinction between thinking a piece of stone or plaster is a god and desiring to visually remember Christ and the saints in heaven by making statues in their honor. The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know his Bible. 

_NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004_


----------



## auparavant

No, this is not a proselytization attempt.  It is explaining the seemingly inexplicable.  It is an attempt to set the record straight based upon our adherence to the scriptures and holy and sacred tradition handed down through the apostles, guided by the H-ly Spirit so that heretical charges can be put to rest.  You will probably disagree anyway, but the reasons are there in easy to read format.  It's like call an apple purple when it's red.  Someone may want to see it as purple, but if it's red, then it's red.


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## Belle Du Jour

No, we don't.  I don't get why someone would think that venerating/meditating on an object (like a crucifix or statue) that allows one to meditate on the life of Christ, His Passion, His suffering and His resurrection, etc is a BAD thing.  It doesn't make sense.  

To me, it's like the rosary.  People are so quick to slam it and say it's "vain repetition" (totally misapplying that verse of scripture BTW) but they don't understand or care to understand that the Rosary is a deep form of contemplative prayer on the life of Christ.


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## Rsgal

Thanks for this. I just finished posting (same citations are the same) in the other thread that I had bumped.


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## aribell

I think the verses are helpful--the passage about the bronze serpent is particularly thought-provoking.  It's one of those really interesting happenings in the OT, kind of like the story of the man who fell on Elijah's bones and was immediately healed (relics).

It does seem to me, though, that the question about whether the use of statues is idolatry is ultimately a question about whether the _veneration_ of saints is idolatry.  In answering that question, often the distinction between "latria" and "dulia" is made, with latria being only given to God.  The apologetical arguments that I've read on that point haven't always been convincing, as saints are often honored in a manner that we would not honor a living person (at least not in the West--some of this is cultural, imo).

To take a non-Catholic example, I had the pleasure of spending a few months as a visitor in an Orthodox parish.  At one point, a "wonder working icon" of Our Lady of Sitka (Alaska) was brought to the church.  There was a service dedicated to the Theotokos (Mary) in which the icon was displayed at the front of the church and a liturgy of prayers was sung to the Theotokos with much kneeling and bowing before the icon.  I was honestly rather mortified, as for me, such acts fall squarely into the "God" category and again, for me, are reserved as an expression of worship toward God.  (the point about Japanese culture is duly noted, which is why I do think that sensibilities about such things differ across cultures and amongst individuals).

On my part, it is easier for me to say that insofar as I could discern from our fellowship and discussions together, that the individuals of that church did not have idolatrous _hearts_ than it is for me to say that such a service was not idolatrous.  Do they submit themselves or their hearts to the icon, or the Theotokos, rather than to God?  No, not in any way that I could tell.  And yet I would not participate in such a service in the future.  

Veneration is not a black or white thing, I think.  It remains a matter of the heart.  I've seen some rely on book definitions of idolatry and philosophical distinctions on the nature of worship, and while such distinctions are real, they can't in themselves answer the question of whether an individual, at heart, is offering to a creature what should only be offered to the Creator.  People still have to continually sift their own hearts to know whether they are truly submitting to Him or to something man-made.


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## auparavant

Belle Du Jour said:


> No, we don't.  I don't get why someone would think that venerating/meditating on an object (like a crucifix or statue) that allows one to meditate on the life of Christ, His Passion, His suffering and His resurrection, etc is a BAD thing.  It doesn't make sense.
> 
> To me, it's like the rosary.  People are so quick to slam it and say it's "vain repetition" (totally misapplying that verse of scripture BTW) but they don't understand or care to understand that the Rosary is a deep form of contemplative prayer on the life of Christ.




And this also goes beyond the Eastern and Western Church (catholic/orthodox) and includes protestants as they are also called idolators for worshiping Jesus, a human being.  It's important for all christians to know what we do and why we do it, even if it is believing in Jesus and possessing a cross or a crucifix, dove symbol or the fish.


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## auparavant

nicola.kirwan said:


> I think the verses are helpful--the passage about the bronze serpent is particularly thought-provoking.  It's one of those really interesting happenings in the OT, kind of like the story of the man who fell on Elijah's bones and was immediately healed (relics).
> 
> It does seem to me, though, that the question about whether the use of statues is idolatry is ultimately a question about whether the _veneration_ of saints is idolatry.  In answering that question, often the distinction between "latria" and "dulia" is made, with latria being only given to God.  *The apologetical arguments that I've read on that point haven't always been convincing*, as saints are often honored in a manner that we would not honor a living person (at least not in the West--some of this is cultural, imo).
> 
> To take a non-Catholic example, I had the pleasure of spending a few months as a visitor in an Orthodox parish.  At one point, a "wonder working icon" of Our Lady of Sitka (Alaska) was brought to the church.  There was a service dedicated to the Theotokos (Mary) in which the icon was displayed at the front of the church and a liturgy of prayers was sung to the Theotokos with much kneeling and bowing before the icon.  I was honestly rather mortified, as for me, such acts fall squarely into the "God" category and again, for me, are reserved as an expression of worship toward God.  (the point about Japanese culture is duly noted, which is why I do think that sensibilities about such things differ across cultures and amongst individuals).
> 
> On my part, it is easier for me to say that insofar as I could discern from our fellowship and discussions together, that the individuals of that church did not have idolatrous _hearts_ than it is for me to say that such a service was not idolatrous.  Do they submit themselves or their hearts to the icon, or the Theotokos, rather than to God?  No, not in any way that I could tell.  And yet I would not participate in such a service in the future.
> 
> Veneration is not a black or white thing, I think. * It remains a matter of the heart.*  I've seen some rely on book definitions of idolatry and philosophical distinctions on the nature of worship, and while such distinctions are real, they can't in themselves answer the question of whether an individual, at heart, is offering to a creature what should only be offered to the Creator. * People still have to continually sift their own hearts to know whether they are truly submitting to Him or to something man-made*.




Or submit to the teaching authority in which such has already been determined with boundaries set forth.  This is how we know we are right, when we mirror what has been passed down.  We need not go it alone ever again.


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## Shimmie

This is where I am.   

I have become more aware of the love that flows from the hearts of those who are Catholic, SDA, and other Christian faiths here.

I don't want to care about how a person's denomination differs from how I worship God.   I don't see anyone here worshipping nor exhalting satan. 

Here are the basics:

We all love God
We all acknowledge Jesus as our Lord and Saviour
We all acknowledge the fullness of the Holy Spirit
We each denounce satan and all of his wickedness
We each honour the true meaning of Marriage which is between One Man and One Woman... no in between.  No alterations; no variations, no counterfeits.   
We each respect life; renounce abortion

We just need to come together as one.   Jesus said "Unto we all come together in the knowledge of the Truth"...  The Truth is Jesus.  

satan doesn't want us to become one.     Who cares about what he wants or doesn't want?  

There isn't a perfect religion among us.  Not one.  Yet there is perfect love and that's all I'm changing my heart to see.   

I may not worhip the same as Catholics, however, Catholics are not evil nor are they serving the devil.   They have something greater to share among us; their loving hearts.


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## auparavant

I hope this thread is taken well.  I think we have more similarities and certainly all derive from the first universal faith and therefore, have more in common than we realize.  I posted this to just put people at ease with the differences and to know that all people need prayer, not just catholics   What is also very important is that we ask questions and continue to do so all of our lives.  That's how we learn.  And in that learning, we begin to see just how the people of G-d are definitely thrown often to the lions.  We all need to know our roots and comprehend why we do what we do...all of us.  

Thanks @Shimmie  but I have to even say about "loving hearts," that it's not even the focus.  We are all imperfect.  If there's anything I wish for others to know about catholicism and Judaism, it's best described in these pics.  That is the whole focus.  















Demonstrating the Father's love is definitely important...but before even that is G-d's word.  May He increase and I decrease.


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## aribell

auparavant said:


> Or submit to the teaching authority in which such has already been determined with boundaries set forth.  This is how we know we are right, when we mirror what has been passed down.  We need not go it alone ever again.



Well, the point that I'm making is that even if an act is not sinful in and of itself, that fact alone cannot tell someone whether or not they are an idolater, as idolatry is not simply about outward movements and postures, but is very much about the place God has within one's heart, and the place that created things have within one's heart.  One might have official sanction to do certain acts, but nevertheless need a heart check.  Jesus harped on the scribes and Pharisees about this all the time.  "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you when he said, "This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me." (Matt. 15:8)


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## auparavant

When we affirm the Nicene Creed, we affirm belief in Him.  When we baptize a child, we affirm our belief in Him.  1st Communion, Confirmation, 1st Reconciliation...and all sacraments...we affirm individual and communal belief in Him.  Yes, one can honor G-d with the lips...but HE is basically the only one who knows whether it is true or not and reveals it to the individual for whom it might be true.  That is not for _others_ to determine, actually.  And yet, we are to admonish one another.  We are in this walk as a community of faith together.  That is rather akin to saying to someone that they shouldn't really wear a cross as a symbol and just to keep it all inside.  Well, I think the article explained religious ritual quite well.  It might be a matter of confusion for some but for those who know what they do and what they do not do, there's no misunderstanding at all.


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## Belle Du Jour

auparavant said:


> When we affirm the Nicene Creed, we affirm belief in Him.  When we baptize a child, we affirm our belief in Him.  1st Communion, Confirmation, 1st Reconciliation...and all sacraments...we affirm individual and communal belief in Him.  *Yes, one can honor G-d with the lips...but HE is basically the only one who knows whether it is true or not and reveals it to the individual for whom it might be true.  That is not for others to determine, actually.  *And yet, we are to admonish one another.  We are in this walk as a community of faith together.  That is rather akin to saying to someone that they shouldn't really wear a cross as a symbol and just to keep it all inside.  Well, I think the article explained religious ritual quite well.  It might be a matter of confusion for some but for those who know what they do and what they do not do, there's no misunderstanding at all.



For emphasis


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## Belle Du Jour

auparavant said:


>



Awesome photos!!! Evidence of the "faith of our fathers" (which is actually a Catholic hymn ) in action.  Priests and deacons also wear a similar stole and bishops wear that "beanie."  Pagan roots my foot.


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## auparavant

Hahaha...'beanie'  Kippa or yarmulke and for our cardinals...zucchetto (had to look that one up cuz I forgot).  

But all in all, we are from one initially.  People of the book...that's christians and Jews...and they have the same origin religiously, sometimes genetically.


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## auparavant

Speaking of knowing all the religious articles....I can remember in undergrad when I was taking one of my French courses in culture and our prof. (Parisian) wondered why some of us didn't comprehend automatically what the use of the items were.  Duh, he was used to everybody  being catholic.  I wasn't a catholic then.  Then I made the mistake a few years ago to send in a Montreal joke on new immigrants to Canada and the snow and cold.  With each passing year, they got more Montrealer ...meaning, they began to curse.  H-ly Moses...I had to retract that...cuz they use the terms of the ritual vessels and instruments of the mass.  If I ever finish paying for that on earth....haha.


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## Galadriel

How timely is this? I've just had a discussion with my brother (non-Catholic) about this the other day.




auparavant said:


> No, this is not a proselytization attempt.  It is explaining the seemingly inexplicable.  It is an attempt to set the record straight based upon our adherence to the scriptures and holy and sacred tradition handed down through the apostles, guided by the H-ly Spirit so that heretical charges can be put to rest.  You will probably disagree anyway, but the reasons are there in easy to read format.  It's like call an apple purple when it's red.  Someone may want to see it as purple, but if it's red, then it's red.


----------



## Galadriel

Very interesting. I had some of the same questions myself (when I was not a Catholic) and asked my Catholic friends why they did what they did. I agree we cannot see what's in each individual's heart of hearts, but I also realize that we sometimes judge things through our cultural lens. 

In our particular culture (American), there's really no place for bowing. For anything. Maybe in a movie before a king or queen . To bow before anyone would seem awkward at best, humiliating at worst. We're a culture and country founded upon anti-monarchist ideals, and much of the actions (bowing, etc.) in Catholicism carry with it echoes from cultures and times in history where the monarchy, the King and Queen were ingrained in culture. Thus, you'll notice a lot of the Medieval religious books use flowery language because this is how you would address the royalty of the court--and the royalty of the Court of Heaven are the King Jesus and the Queen Mother (Mary).

I once had someone accuse Catholics of idolatry because he once saw a Catholic enter a Catholic church and approach the sanctuary/altar on his knees. If the person understood Catholicism, he would've known that near the altar would be Jesus Christ Himself present in the Eucharist inside the tabernacle.

I have also had some people mention that the mere presence of statues = idolatry.

nicola.kirwan, I think with proper religious education and formation, people can have a good/better grasp of latria and dulia, and their proper places 




nicola.kirwan said:


> I think the verses are helpful--the passage about the bronze serpent is particularly thought-provoking.  It's one of those really interesting happenings in the OT, kind of like the story of the man who fell on Elijah's bones and was immediately healed (relics).
> 
> It does seem to me, though, that the question about whether the use of statues is idolatry is ultimately a question about whether the _veneration_ of saints is idolatry.  In answering that question, often the distinction between "latria" and "dulia" is made, with latria being only given to God.  The apologetical arguments that I've read on that point haven't always been convincing, as saints are often honored in a manner that we would not honor a living person (at least not in the West--some of this is cultural, imo).
> 
> To take a non-Catholic example, I had the pleasure of spending a few months as a visitor in an Orthodox parish.  At one point, a "wonder working icon" of Our Lady of Sitka (Alaska) was brought to the church.  There was a service dedicated to the Theotokos (Mary) in which the icon was displayed at the front of the church and a liturgy of prayers was sung to the Theotokos with much kneeling and bowing before the icon.  I was honestly rather mortified, as for me, such acts fall squarely into the "God" category and again, for me, are reserved as an expression of worship toward God.  (the point about Japanese culture is duly noted, which is why I do think that sensibilities about such things differ across cultures and amongst individuals).
> 
> On my part, it is easier for me to say that insofar as I could discern from our fellowship and discussions together, that the individuals of that church did not have idolatrous _hearts_ than it is for me to say that such a service was not idolatrous.  Do they submit themselves or their hearts to the icon, or the Theotokos, rather than to God?  No, not in any way that I could tell.  And yet I would not participate in such a service in the future.
> 
> Veneration is not a black or white thing, I think.  It remains a matter of the heart.  I've seen some rely on book definitions of idolatry and philosophical distinctions on the nature of worship, and while such distinctions are real, they can't in themselves answer the question of whether an individual, at heart, is offering to a creature what should only be offered to the Creator.  People still have to continually sift their own hearts to know whether they are truly submitting to Him or to something man-made.


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## auparavant

http://www.aish.com/jw/s/Farewell-to-Pope-Benedict.html





*Farewell to Pope Benedict
Despite some disappointments, he moved the strained Christian-Jewish relations one step closer.*
by Rabbi Benjamin Blech

I met Pope Benedict at the infamous death camp of Auschwitz-Birkenau.

It was right after he had assumed his position as head of the Catholic Church and his very first trip as Pope was to Poland. After stopping in Wadowice, birthplace of his predecessor, Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict went on to the concentration camp complex 37 miles west of Cracow that epitomized the very worst of Nazi Germany’s genocidal plans for the Jewish people.

It was an historic moment. The newly installed Pope, after all, was a German who at the age of 14 joined the Hitler Youth, as was required of young Germans of the time. What were we to make of his past affiliation? It was a troubling thought that preoccupied Jews throughout the world. Having serendipitously become involved with Pope John Paul II a short while before in an effort to secure the return of precious Jewish items from the Vatican, I was filled with trepidation.

The previous Pope had proved to be more of a friend than we could have possibly imagined. When he made his famous pilgrimage to Jerusalem in March 2000, he wrote a very special note which he inserted into the Western Wall. He acknowledged the special role of Jews as God’s messengers and apologized for generations of bigotry and appalling behavior:

    We are deeply saddened by the behavior of those who in the course of history have caused these children of yours to suffer, and, asking your forgiveness, we wish to commit ourselves to genuine brotherhood with the people of the Covenant.

Pope John Paul II had been, as the expression goes, “good for the Jews.” What could we expect from Joseph Aloisius Ratzinger, the ninth German Pope in history?

The decision to stage the first major event of his papacy at the site of history’s most horrific example of anti-Semitism was unmistakably important, and I was lucky enough to have been present for the occasion.

A solemn Pope Benedict, his hands clasped in prayer, entered the camp gates on foot, 20 meters in front of his cardinals, in a driving rain storm. Church bells rang in the southern town of Oswiecim, the Polish name for Auschwitz. After placing a bowl containing a lighted candle at the camp's execution wall, where the Nazis summarily shot thousands of inmates, he moved along a line of 32 camp survivors waiting to meet him. Poland's Chief Rabbi Michael Schudrich recited the Kaddish, while musicians played a haunting Jewish lament.

At the site where Nazis exterminated more than a million people, most of them Jews, the Pope began his address by telling the assembled, "In a place like this, words fail. To speak in this place of horror, in this place where unprecedented mass crimes were committed against God and man, is almost impossible – and it is particularly difficult for a Christian, for a pope from Germany.”

"I could not fail to come here. I had to come," he said. "It is a duty before the truth and the just, due of all who suffered here, a duty before God, for me to come here as the successor of Pope John Paul II and as a son of the German people."

Then an utterly amazing thing happened. Not everyone there understood its biblical significance. But for those who did, it magnificently captured the spiritual meaning of the moment.

Until then we all stood in torrential rain. An aide held an umbrella over the Pope. The fortunate ones among us found some cover. But precisely when the Pope concluded his remarks the rain ceased. A magnificent rainbow appeared in the sky with its arc pointing almost directly to the six memorial markers commemorating the 6 million Jews who had perished.

It was in the time of Noah after the flood and the first cataclysmic time of destruction that God designated the rainbow as an eternal sign to mankind. Its message was God’s promise that a similar devastation would never again be repeated.

What could have been more relevant than a rainbow for those of us who wept at the site of 20th century’s most heinous evil! “Never again” was the divine assurance we perceived from the totally unexpected sign in the sky.

Transference of Power

In the aftermath of the ceremony, hordes of reporters gathered round me to get a rabbinic response to the Pope’s remarks. It soon became apparent though, that they were uninterested in hearing how moved I was by a German Pope’s condemnation of Nazi atrocities. They would have loved to be able to get a headline like, “Jewish leader appalled by Pope’s failure to sufficiently mourn Jewish victims of the Holocaust.”

“Weren’t you disappointed that the Pope didn’t…” was the question raised in variously worded queries goading me to say something negative. But this first encounter with the newly elected Pope was, to my mind, greatly reassuring.

Since that time I have carefully followed Pope Benedict’s relationship with the Jews. He made sure to visit numerous synagogues, has received many delegations from the Jewish community, and pledged repeatedly to uphold the Second Vatican Council’s 1965 teachings about Jews and Judaism that had opened the door to today’s positive relations between the two communities.

Despite some disappointments, some admittedly serious, I concur on the whole with Israeli Chief Rabbi Yona Metzger. After the pope announced he would resign, a spokesman quoted Metzger as saying, “During his period [as Pope] there were the best relations ever between the Church and the Chief Rabbinate and we hope this trend will continue. I think he deserves a lot of credit for advancing inter-religious links the world over between Judaism, Christianity and Islam.”

I do not know what is in the Pope’s heart of hearts. There are those who refuse to consider the possibility that any Christian, especially its highest spiritual leader, could sincerely harbor any goodwill toward our people. History would indeed justify our hesitation. But Pope John Paul II gave hope that as we come closer to the end of days, ancient wounds might find the opportunity for at least a measure of healing. And I believe it would be a mistake for us not to acknowledge the positive efforts of Pope Benedict during the years of his papacy, even as we fully recognize the many differences between our faiths.

Pope Benedict stunned the world with his announcement of imminent retirement. I believe his final message to the world is as important to us as it is to his followers. Unable to properly fulfill his duties due to physical constraints, he has chosen to transfer his position of power and honor to someone more capable. That is certainly an idea worthy of imitation by many.

As to the selection of a new Pope, it is not within the Jewish purview to involve ourselves in such a process. But we hope the Church finds a papal leadership that will continue its path of atonement for the many centuries of its anti-Semitic history, and will do its part to help heal the world.


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## JaneBond007

Question for my catholic sisters:

Well, we used to observe Passover and I think one of the reasons I don't observe it today is partly due to the tedious preparations.  It can be murderous (for me, at least).  But...given our heritage, would you, if you were of that heritage, still observe some form of Passover?  I sometimes feel so guilty and unappreciative.


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## Galadriel

JaneBond007 said:


> Question for my catholic sisters:
> 
> Well, we used to observe Passover and I think one of the reasons I don't observe it today is partly due to the tedious preparations.  It can be murderous (for me, at least).  But...given our heritage, would you, if you were of that heritage, still observe some form of Passover?  I sometimes feel so guilty and unappreciative.



I have a good friend who is Jewish she and her mom became Christians (I think Methodist? I forget the specific denom) and she still celebrates Passover as well as Easter. She really enjoys celebrating both, and I think it also helps her form a deeper appreciation for her faith, heritage, and history.


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## JaneBond007

With all that G-d has given me, I just feel I'm not quite appreciating what I could.  At the same time, I don't want to think that my salvation depended upon it.  I'd like to think of it as a joyous occasion, but....I can barely keep up with the catholic holidays and they don't take nearly as much prep, except for not eating bacon and beef on Fridays.  Which is funny, cuz I'm always worrying about the "legalism" thing.  

Funniest....a few years ago when I sat in the blessed sacrament with the siddur or prayer book in my hand pondering what to do, He appeared to me and told me, "you have 2 choices, orthodox judaism or catholicism."  So, I started looking at them and figured out..."they're the same darned orthodox thing!  I'll never escape any kind of high holy days!"  This thing is built into my bones...and was handed down by Moses, then the apostles.  It's just the "system," innit?


----------



## Belle Du Jour

JaneBond007 said:


> With all that G-d has given me, I just feel I'm not quite appreciating what I could.  At the same time, I don't want to think that my salvation depended upon it.  I'd like to think of it as a joyous occasion, but....I can barely keep up with the catholic holidays and they don't take nearly as much prep, except for not eating bacon and beef on Fridays.  Which is funny, cuz I'm always worrying about the "legalism" thing.
> 
> Funniest....a few years ago when I sat in the blessed sacrament with the siddur or prayer book in my hand pondering what to do, He appeared to me and told me, "you have 2 choices, orthodox judaism or catholicism."  So, I started looking at them and figured out..."they're the same darned orthodox thing!  I'll never escape any kind of high holy days!"  This thing is built into my bones...and was handed down by Moses, then the apostles.  It's just the "system," innit?



I hear you about the Catholic feast days  We have a lot going on LOL.  I have never celebrated Passover but I am very interested in learning more about how the two faiths are similar.  Please share some examples if you have time.


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## Belle Du Jour

I went to Tenebrae last night and it definitely has Jewish roots. They played solemn Hebrew music and we read passages from lamentations and psalms while candles were extinguished one by one. Has anyone done that before?


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## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> I went to Tenebrae last night and it definitely has Jewish roots. They played solemn Hebrew music and we read passages from lamentations and psalms while candles were extinguished one by one. Has anyone done that before?



Haven't done it, but it sounds amazing!


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## JaneBond007

@Belle Du Jour

I'll come back with a proper post on it.  I'm so beat right now...family is coming over.  Yikes!  That means major cleanup oy vey.  But I'll share some insight on the Haggadah and the Passover plate.

Galadriel

I've never heard of Tenebrae.  I feel ashamed...or maybe I was taught about it but never observed it?  RCIA was ages ago lol.  I found this youtube of it and will be watching it tonight.  I seriously need to learn so much more of our ancient faith.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tesCU_wafbM


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## Galadriel

JaneBond007 said:


> @Belle Du Jour
> 
> I'll come back with a proper post on it.  I'm so beat right now...family is coming over.  Yikes!  That means major cleanup oy vey.  But I'll share some insight on the Haggadah and the Passover plate.
> 
> @Galadriel
> 
> I've never heard of Tenebrae.  I feel ashamed...or maybe I was taught about it but never observed it?  RCIA was ages ago lol.  I found this youtube of it and will be watching it tonight.  I seriously need to learn so much more of our ancient faith.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tesCU_wafbM




Thanks for sharing, JB!


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## Galadriel

LOVED what this lady had to say about veiling (she's a convert entering the Church this Easter):

What has finally brought about my YES to veil during Mass (beginning after my baptism- though, I still am not sure if I should begin on Holy Saturday, after my baptism, wait until Easter, or next weekend...if anyone has thoughts on this, please share! I am really not sure when would be most appropriate!) is reflecting on what is veiled in the Church. Chalice, tabernacle, and crucifixes, and statues, toward the end of Lent. What do all of those things have in common? They are all sacred, precious reminders of our faith. They are all worthy of beginning veiled. They are all worthy of being hidden, so that when they are revealed we will once again be reminded of their beauty, importance, and significance. What is the one other thing that was once commonly veiled during Mass?

Women. So, beyond humbleness, beyond modesty, beyond 1 Corinthians is the Church saying; "YOU are worthy of being veiled." Whoa. How could one argue with that? Well, this one could not.

(Read full blog post HERE)


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## Belle Du Jour

I veil for TLM and in front of the blessed sacrament if it is exposed. I also veiled at the.feast of the immaculate conception in honor of our lady. Honestly, I think people judge you when you veil (outside of Latin mass). I know their opinion doesn't matter but i hate feeling like I'm drawing attention to myself. Do you veil Galadriel?


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## Belle Du Jour

Ladies don't forget to start the divine mercy novena today! Now more than ever we need to implore his grace and mercy with all that's happening with the possible redefinition of marriage. 

O blood and water which gushed forth from the heart of Jesus as a fountain of mercy for us, I trust in You!


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## Belle Du Jour

New article about the shroud of Turin: http://cosmiclog.nbcnews.com/_news/...otlight-with-new-pope-new-app-new-debate?lite


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## Belle Du Jour

Watching The Passion of the Christ has me all the way messed up on this Good Friday.  






Mother of Sorrows, you walked every step of the way with Christ and watched your Son crucified on a tree.  Unite my suffering with yours today.


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## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> I veil for TLM and in front of the blessed sacrament if it is exposed. I also veiled at the.feast of the immaculate conception in honor of our lady. Honestly, I think people judge you when you veil (outside of Latin mass). I know their opinion doesn't matter but i hate feeling like I'm drawing attention to myself. Do you veil @Galadriel?



I veil at TLM but I do see some women veil for NO at my parish.


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## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> Watching The Passion of the Christ has me all the way messed up on this Good Friday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mother of Sorrows, you walked every step of the way with Christ and watched your Son crucified on a tree.  Unite my suffering with yours today.



Watching it right now with DH.


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## Galadriel

Happy Holy Saturday.

I always think about the Harrowing of Hell on this day:


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## HWAY

Would you mind explaining this to a person who was never tauggt about the Harrowing of Hell? I attended a passion play two weeks ago that included this doctrine.  I've heard it mentioned but never researched this doctrine.


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## Galadriel

HWAY said:


> Would you mind explaining this to a person who was never tauggt about the Harrowing of Hell? I attended a passion play two weeks ago that included this doctrine.  I've heard it mentioned but never researched this doctrine.



HWAY



> This is the Old English and Middle English term for the triumphant descent of Christ into hell (or Hades) between the time of His Crucifixion and His Resurrection, when, according to Christian belief, He brought salvation to the souls held captive there since the beginning of the world. (Catholic Encyclopedia)



The Harrowing of Hell is based on the New Testament, especially 1 Peter 3:18-20:



> For  Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous,  to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in  the Spirit. After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.



From the moment of Christ's death on Good Friday until His resurrection on Sunday, He went to "make proclamation" to the spirits in Hades (e.g., those in Abraham's Bosom. Think of the parable of Lazarus).

Christ's words here also reflect the Harrowing of Hell:



> And He called them to Himself and began speaking to them in parables, “How can Satan cast out Satan? “If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. “If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. “If Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but he is finished! “But  no one can enter the strong man’s house and plunder his property unless  he first binds the strong man, and then he will plunder his house. (Mark 3:23-27)



Christ is the one who "binds the strong man" and "plunders" the strong man's house by rescuing the souls of those in Abraham's Bosom waiting on the Messiah.


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## Belle Du Jour

Time to get ready for vigil mass!!!  I'm looking forward to the Exsultet/Easter proclamation, the lighting of the Easter Candle, the majestic _Gloria in Excelsis Deo _and the sung Litany of the Saints! 

From the Exsultet:
Rejoice, heavenly powers! Sing, choirs of angels!
Exult, all creation around God's throne!
Jesus Christ, our King, is risen!
Sound the trumpet of salvation!...

May the Morning Star which never sets
find this flame still burning:
Christ, that Morning Star,
who came back from the dead,
and shed his peaceful light on all mankind,
your Son, who lives and reigns for ever and ever.
Amen.


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## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> Time to get ready for vigil mass!!!  I'm looking forward to the Exsultet/Easter proclamation, the lighting of the Easter Candle, the majestic _Gloria in Excelsis Deo _and the sung Litany of the Saints!
> 
> From the Exsultet:
> Rejoice, heavenly powers! Sing, choirs of angels!
> Exult, all creation around God's throne!
> Jesus Christ, our King, is risen!
> Sound the trumpet of salvation!...
> 
> May the Morning Star which never sets
> find this flame still burning:
> Christ, that Morning Star,
> who came back from the dead,
> and shed his peaceful light on all mankind,
> your Son, who lives and reigns for ever and ever.
> Amen.



 Awesome! I'm attending Mass tomorrow morning. Can't wait!


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## Belle Du Jour

It was awesome!  I think the best part for me, which I didn't notice last year is while  they were placing the consecrated host back into the tabernacle, Handel's Hallelujah was playing.  Then they lit the ever-burning sanctuary light (which signifies the presence of Jesus in His Temple for any non-Catholics browsing).  As they were shouting "King of Kings and Lord of Lords!" the sanctuary light was ascending back up to the ceiling.  *chills*

Thank you Jesus!  He is risen.  Hallelujah.


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## Belle Du Jour

Galadriel said:


> Awesome! I'm attending Mass tomorrow morning. Can't wait!



I need to get a good rest tonight so my knees will be ready for TLM tomorrow   I'm sure there will be a lot of kneeling--more than normal!


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## JaneBond007

Passover to Mass

Many people do not comprehend what it is that we see, even with the explanations.  I guess it's a matter of the spiritual realm:

http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0306.asp
By Rev. Lawrence E. Mick

The central liturgical ritual among Christians, especially among Catholics, is the celebration of the Eucharist. Among Jews, that title probably belongs to the celebration of the Passover. Since Jesus was a Jew, we should not be surprised to find that there are connections between these two liturgical rituals. Sorting out just what those connections are, however, is not as easy as it might seem. In this Update we’ll try to tackle the task.

At first glance, it seems quite simple. Christians see the first Eucharist as taking place at the Last Supper, the night before Jesus was crucified. The New Testament presents this meal as a Passover meal. So the first Eucharist was a Passover celebration, and the Eucharist is the Christian Passover. There are a variety of problems with that picture, however, as we will see.

A Passover meal?

One problem is that scholars are not sure whether the Last Supper was a Passover meal or not. The Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke) indicate that it was, but John’s Gospel places the Last Supper on the night before Passover. In John’s Gospel, Jesus is crucified at the same time that the Passover lambs were being slaughtered at the temple for the meal that would follow that evening.

For many years, scholars assumed that the Synoptic version was more accurate historically, but recently a consensus seems to be developing that sees John as very concerned about dates and times. This view suggests that John’s dating is correct and that the other writers recast the meal as a Passover meal to make a point about the meaning of Jesus’ death and resurrection.

The issue cannot be definitively settled at this point, but it should make us careful about assuming that the Last Supper was a Passover meal. Moreover, the descriptions of the meal that come to us from the Gospels do not sound much like the Passover. There is no mention of lamb, or bitter herbs or any of the other elements that were unique to the Passover. (Actually, we’re not too sure how the Passover ritual was celebrated in the time of Jesus, since the first detailed descriptions we have of the Passover ritual are from a later date.)

To further complicate matters, Luke’s Gospel indicates a different pattern for the meal than Mark and Matthew. Luke relates the sharing of a cup first, then the bread and then another cup, a pattern that matches a common Jewish festive meal, but not necessarily the Passover.

Another key point is that Passover is celebrated only once a year, not weekly as the Christian Eucharist was celebrated from the beginning. It is also instructive to note that the Passover required unleavened bread, while Christians used leavened bread for the Eucharist for a millennium in the West and to this day in the East. Scholars suggest that the Eucharist stems more from the common meals Jesus shared with his disciples, especially after the Resurrection, than from the Passover ritual. Not as simple as it seems, is it!

The Meaning of the meal

Whether the Last Supper was or was not a Passover meal, the early Christians saw it as the fulfillment of the Passover. As we noted above, the Synoptic Gospels cast the meal itself as a Passover supper, while John sees Jesus as the paschal lamb sacrificed on the cross. St. Paul also links Christ’s death and resurrection with the Passover in First Corinthians: “Clear out the old yeast, so that you may become a fresh batch of dough, inasmuch as you are unleavened. For our paschal lamb, Christ, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth” (1 Cor 5:7-8).
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To understand the Eucharist, then, it is important for us to understand the meaning of the Passover celebration. The roots of this festival are very ancient, even preceding the Exodus of the Jews from Egypt. The later Passover is really a combination of two celebrations: a nomadic tribal sacrifice of a lamb whose blood is sprinkled on the tent pegs to ward off evil spirits and an agrarian ritual marking spring and the harvest of new grain with the use of unleavened bread. As nomads settled among local farmers, these two celebrations were combined.

The Hebrew Bible, however, gives a new meaning to these combined rituals by linking them to the events of the Exodus. As part of that event, God sent a series of plagues to afflict the Egyptians. When the final plague was announced, the death of the firstborn by the destroying angel, the Israelites slaughtered lambs and marked their homes with the blood, thus warding off this evil. Then they fled Egypt in haste, without time for bread to rise, so they ate unleavened bread (see Ex 12:21-36.)

A feast of identity

For the Jews, then, the Passover is a celebration of the Exodus. It is a feast of liberation, rejoicing in God’s wondrous acts on their behalf that set them free from slavery. The Exodus was also the event that established Israel as a people, as God’s chosen people. In the United States, our Fourth of July rituals celebrate our independence and our identity as a nation. Passover had a similar significance for the Jewish people.

In at least one significant respect, though, the Jewish understanding of the celebration was quite different from the way we Americans think of the Fourth of July. We celebrate an event that happened over 200 years ago. We celebrate our continuing freedom, but we think of that past event as long gone and out of reach. Even though some of us may dress up in colonial garb, we don’t really think of ourselves as being present at the signing of the Declaration of Independence or of taking part in the Revolutionary War that achieved our freedom.

For the Jews, on the other hand, remembering the Exodus is more than just a mental recall. The Book of Exodus commands the Jewish father to explain the meaning of the feast this way: “On this day you shall explain to your son, ‘This is because of what the Lord did for me when I came out of Egypt’” (13:8).

All Jews are to celebrate the feast as though they had been alive at the time of the Exodus. They see the feast as somehow bringing them into contact with that ancient event. This is the concept we try to express with the term “memorial” (anamnesis in Greek). Through the ritual observance, the contemporary Jew not only remembers the past but also relives it.

At the same time, the memorial celebration of the Passover also proclaims God’s continuing liberating action on behalf of God’s people in the present day and looks forward to the fulfillment of God’s promises for complete salvation when the Messiah comes. Just as God acted in the past, God continues to act in the present and will act in the future to save us.


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## JaneBond007

Cont'd

Christ’s exodus

Jesus drew on this concept of memorial when he told his disciples, during the Last Supper, to “do this in memory of me” (Lk 22:19). The Church has long understood that the celebration of the Eucharist brings us into contact with the saving actions of Christ. That is the way we are able to share in his sacrifice, his exodus through death to resurrected life.

His sacrifice is not repeated; he died once for all and death has no more power over him. But his sacrifice is also eternal and enacting the ritual of the Eucharist enables us to enter into that eternal act.

Though the Church has long held this basic view that the Eucharist brings us into contact with Christ’s sacrifice, it has not endorsed any theological explanation of how this happens.

One way to understand what happens is to recognize that the core of Christ’s sacrifice was his commitment to the Father’s will, clearly expressed in the agony in the garden: “Not my will but yours be done” (Lk 22:42). This commitment led him to the cross and resurrection at one point in history, but Christ’s will is eternally united with the Father’s will.

Christ is forever victim, forever priest. When we celebrate the Eucharist, we are invited to enter into that eternal act, aligning our wills with the Father’s will as Jesus did. Thus we become one with Christ and share in his sacrificial act. This can help us to realize the breadth of the commitment we make when we “do this in memory” of Jesus.

What did Jesus mean by “this”? What are we to do in memory of him? Pope Benedict XVI addressed this question in a homily at World Youth Day in Germany in August 2005. “Jesus did not instruct us,” Benedict said, “to repeat the Passover meal, which in any event, given that it is an anniversary, is not repeatable at will. He instructed us to enter into his ‘hour.’” The pope goes on to suggest that Jesus’ hour is the “hour in which love triumphs” and that we share his hour if we “allow ourselves, through the celebration of the Eucharist, to be drawn into that process of transformation that the Lord intends to bring about.”

In memory of Jesus, then, we are to be transformed by adopting his attitude of love and his commitment to the Father’s will. We share his sacrifice not only by carrying out the ritual of the Mass but also by living our lives in accord with God’s will.

The Amen that we sing at the end of the Eucharistic Prayer at every Mass commits us to a whole way of life. Our Eucharist is only authentic if it expresses the meaning of our whole lives. What we are to do in memory of Jesus is to live and love as he did.

True Liberation

When Jesus described his ministry in Luke’s Gospel, he quoted Isaiah: “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to bring glad tidings to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free, and to proclaim a year acceptable to the Lord” (4:18-19). Those words echo the Passover’s celebration of God as a liberator of the oppressed, and they stand as a challenge to us to embrace Christ’s mission as our own.

Pope John Paul II, in announcing the 2004-2005 Year of the Eucharist—the year that he himself died—reminded us that the Eucharist requires this kind of commitment for its authentic celebration. There is one other point which I would like to emphasize, since it significantly affects the authenticity of our communal sharing in the Eucharist. It is the impulse which the Eucharist gives to the community for a practical commitment to building a more just and fraternal society.

In the Eucharist our God has shown love in the extreme, overturning all those criteria of power which too often govern human relations and radically affirming the criterion of service: “If anyone wishes to be first, he shall be the last of all and the servant of all” (Mk 9:35). It is not by chance that the Gospel of John contains no account of the institution of the Eucharist, but instead relates the “washing of feet” (see Jn 13:1-20). By bending down to wash the feet of his disciples, Jesus explains the meaning of the Eucharist unequivocally. St. Paul vigorously reaffirms the impropriety of a eucharistic celebration lacking charity expressed by practical sharing with the poor (see 1 Cor 11:17-22, 27-34).

We cannot delude ourselves: By our mutual love and, in particular, by our concern for those in need we will be recognized as true followers of Christ (see Jn 13:35; Mt 25:31-46). This will be the criterion by which the authenticity of our eucharistic celebrations is judged (Mane Nobiscum Domine, #28).

From Passover to Easter—to Sunday

Jews celebrate God’s saving action in the Exodus every year at Passover. Christians celebrate Jesus’ passing through death to the new life every year in the great three days we call Triduum: Holy Thursday, Good Friday and Easter. This is the closest Christian parallel to Passover.

Of course, we also celebrate the Resurrection of the Lord every Sunday when we gather for Eucharist, which is why Sunday is sometimes called “a little Easter.”

We don’t celebrate the Passover ritual, but the meaning of the Passover meal and the meaning of the eucharistic meal are related. Our God is a God of freedom and life. Both Christians and Jews celebrate God’s saving love and thus commit themselves to imitating that love. That’s the deepest meaning of both Passover and Eucharist.

Lawrence E. Mick is a priest of the Archdiocese of Cincinnati. He holds a master’s degree in liturgical studies from the University of Notre Dame. He is the author of over 500 articles in various publications. His latest book is I Like Being in Parish Ministry: Presider (Twenty-Third Publications).


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## JaneBond007

QUESTION:


If you go to confession and you see a family that sits right next to the confessional when there are lines of people...two separate on either side of the sanctuary and every time you see them, they are within 3 feet of the confessional, would you say something to them or to the priest about people trying to listen in?    If you are not a parishioner there and you reconcile there ever so often?  

I've never said anything directly to them but instructed my son to sit further up so that we do not disrespect privacy...within earshot.  They eavesdrop on their own family and it's very obvious because they aren't always kneeled in prayer and their heads turn towards the confessional.  Other people are also disrespected this way.

What on earth would possess an entire family to do something like this?  Adults, teens, smaller children.    When I see them, I go to the far side of the sanctuary for mine.


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## Galadriel

JaneBond007 said:


> QUESTION:
> 
> 
> If you go to confession and you see a family that sits right next to the confessional when there are lines of people...two separate on either side of the sanctuary and every time you see them, they are within 3 feet of the confessional, would you say something to them or to the priest about people trying to listen in?    If you are not a parishioner there and you reconcile there ever so often?
> 
> I've never said anything directly to them but instructed my son to sit further up so that we do not disrespect privacy...within earshot.  They eavesdrop on their own family and it's very obvious because they aren't always kneeled in prayer and their heads turn towards the confessional.  Other people are also disrespected this way.
> 
> What on earth would possess an entire family to do something like this?  Adults, teens, smaller children.    When I see them, I go to the far side of the sanctuary for mine.




Wow, that's pretty disrespectful to sit so close to a confessional. Sometimes I do wonder why a 90 y.o. has to be in there for 5 minutes, . I'm like "Come on, lady! Hurry it up!"


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## JaneBond007

LOLOL!  Some people take as long as 20 min.  I had a dream about Padre Pio...and he winked at me.


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## JaneBond007

I've given a little excerpt concerning the wine and the passover celebration.  Be warned, that article is pretty long.  Check the link for the full.

Disclaimer:  _This is for catholic discussion as it concerns the Jewish roots. Jesus as Messiah is not up for debate.  If you do not agree with Jesus or Martin Barrick, please open a new thread that will be appropriate to your discussion elsewhere.  In other words, I love you, kumbayah, kol b'seder but I don't care.  Again, this is for catholic eyes and discussion and anyone else who might ask an honest question about the succession.  
_

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0002.html

Our Jewish Heritage
MARTIN K. BARRACK
The life of our Lord and the practice of Catholics is so much prefigured in our Jewish origins.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (no.839) tells us: “When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with Jewish people, the first to hear the word of God. The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ ‘for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.’” The interior quotation is from St. Paul, Romans 9:4.

That concise paragraph tells us that the Catholic Church is the fulfillment and completion of God’s self-revelation that began with Abraham. After seven centuries, God continued His revelation through Moses. The people that He chose to carry His revelation across the next twelve centuries lived in the crucible of the Old Covenant until they were prepared to receive His Messiah, who reconciled Cod with man in the New and Everlasting Covenant. There is a straight line from Moses, who said, “Behold the blood of the covenant which the Lord has made with you,” (Ex 24:8) to Jesus, who said, “This is My blood of the covenant” (Mt 26:28). The ancient Jewish priesthood continues today in the person of the Catholic priest. Catholics are God’s chosen people, proclaiming His revelation across the centuries until He comes again in glory. 


.....
""
Jesus is prefigured in the wine. When the afikomen is broken and passed around for all to take and eat, Jews at the Seder table drink the third of four cups of wine, called the cup of blessing because it represents the blood of the sacrificed paschal lamb in Egypt on that memorable Passover night. That was the cup Jesus gave to His apostles, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.” Jesus did not drink the fourth, the kalah cup, with his apostles. After his capture at Gethsemane, Jesus asked Peter, “Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given Me?” Jesus drank the last cup on the cross from a sponge full of vinegar held to His mouth, said in a loud voice, kalah (it is finished), bowed His head, and gave up His spirit.


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## JaneBond007

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...brew-text-sparks-major-debate-among-scholars/

*Mysterious Jesus-Era Stone With Ancient Hebrew Text Sparks Major Debate Among Scholars*

                      Apr. 30, 2013

JERUSALEM (TheBlaze/AP) – Interesting  archeological finds are generally pretty fascinating. That’s why the  so-called Gabriel Stone, like many religious artifacts before it, has  captured so much attention. Discovered in Jordan 13 years ago, the  tablet contains mysterious Hebrew writing — and has been a source of  intriguing debate among scholars.


*In addition to the odd writing, the  stone features the archangel Gabriel. Jerusalem scholars continue to  examine the message’s purported meaning, as the stone is at the center  of a new exhibit in Jerusalem.
*

*The so-called Gabriel Stone, a meter  (three-foot)-tall tablet said to have been found on the banks of the  Dead Sea, features 87 lines of an unknown prophetic text dated as early  as the first century BC, at the time of the Second Jewish Temple.*


*Scholars see it as a portal into the  religious ideas circulating in the Holy Land in the era when was Jesus  was born. Its form is also unique — it is ink written on stone, not  carved — and no other such religious text has been found in the region.*


 Curators at the Israel Museum, where  the first exhibit dedicated to the stone is opening Wednesday, *say it is  the most important document found in the area since the discovery of  the Dead Sea Scrolls.*
*“The Gabriel Stone is in a way a Dead  Sea Scroll written on stone,” said James Snyder, director of the Israel  Museum. The writing dates to the same period, and uses the same tidy  calligraphic Hebrew script, as some of the Dead Sea Scrolls, a  collection of documents that include the earliest known surviving  manuscripts of Hebrew Bible texts.*


The Gabriel Stone made a splash in 2008  when Israeli Bible scholar Israel Knohl offered a daring theory that  the stone’s faded writing would revolutionize the understanding of early  Christianity, claiming it included a concept of messianic resurrection  that predated Jesus. He based his theory on one hazy line, translating  it as “in three days you shall live.”
 His interpretation caused a storm in  the world of Bible studies, with scholars convening at an international  conference the following year to debate readings of the text, and a  National Geographic documentary crew featuring his theory. An American  team of experts using high resolution scanning technologies tried — but  failed — to detect more of the faded writing.


Knohl, a professor of Bible at Hebrew  University in Jerusalem, eventually scaled back from his original  bombshell theory but the fierce scholarly debate he sparked continued to  reverberate across the academic world, bringing international attention  to the stone. Over the last few years it went on display alongside  other Bible-era antiquities in Rome, Houston and Dallas.







An ancient stone with mysterious Hebrew writing and featuring the  archangel Gabriel is being displayed in Israel, even as scholars  continue to argue about what the inscription means. Credit: AP 

A museum worker points at the ‘Gabriel Stone’ as it is displayed at an  exhibition at the Israel Museum in Jerusalem, Tuesday, April 30, 2013.  An ancient stone with mysterious Hebrew writing and featuring the  archangel Gabriel is being displayed in Israel, even as scholars  continue to argue about what the inscription means. Credit: AP

 Bible experts are still debating the  writing’s meaning, largely because much of the ink has eroded in crucial  spots in the passage and the tablet has two diagonal cracks the slice  the text into three pieces. Museum curators say only 40 percent of the  87 lines are legible, many of those only barely. The interpretation of  the text featured in the Israel Museum’s exhibit is just one of five  readings put forth by scholars.


*All agree that the passage describes  an apocalyptic vision of an attack on Jerusalem in which God appears  with angels on chariots to save the city. The central angelic character  is Gabriel, the first angel to appear in the Hebrew Bible. “I am  Gabriel,” the writing declares.*


 The stone inscription is one of the  oldest passages featuring the archangel, and represents an “explosion of  angels in Second Temple Judaism,” at a time of great spiritual angst  for Jews in Jerusalem looking for divine connection, said Adolfo  Roitman, a curator of the exhibit.


 The exhibit traces the development of  the archangel Gabriel in the three monotheistic religions, displaying a  Dead Sea Scroll fragment which mentions the angel’s name; the 13th  century Damascus Codex, one of the oldest illustrated manuscripts of the  complete Hebrew Bible; a 10th century New Testament manuscript from  Brittany, in which Gabriel predicts the birth of John the Baptist and  appears to the Virgin Mary; and an Iranian Quran manuscript dated to the  15th or 16th century, in which the angel, called Jibril in Arabic,  reveals the word of God to the prophet Mohammad.


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## JaneBond007

Pretty interesting artifact of the only kind found?  Ink on stone and signed by Archangel Gabriel?  Pre-Jesus?  Reminds me of Our Lady of Guadalupe.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

JaneBond007 explain the connection to Our Lady of Guadaloupe.


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## JaneBond007

I'm saying it reminds me of how Our Lady appeared on that cloak and has been examined to be a substance that cannot be determined.  Ink on stone...they usually carved on stone.  I do hope it's not determined to be a fake.


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## JaneBond007

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/commentary/la-oe-allen-pope-francis-20130929,0,5439607.story


*Misreading Pope Francis*
Roman Catholic conservatives and liberals alike wrongly believe the pontiff wants to blow up the church as we know it.

By Charlotte Allen

September 29, 2013

Pope Francis' highly publicized recent interview with an Italian Jesuit magazine has ushered in a new era for the Roman Catholic Church — an era of record levels of misinterpretation of the pontiff's words, both by the liberal media and by conservative Catholics who have been grousing about Francis ever since he washed the feet of a Muslim girl during Holy Week.

The remark most focused on was this: "We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods.... The teaching of the church … is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time."

How were the pope's remarks portrayed? The New York Times headline for its story about the interview read: "Pope Says Church Is 'Obsessed' With Gays, Abortion and Birth Control." Not to be outdone, the New York Daily News headlined: "Blunt pontiff tells flock to quit yammering about gay marriage, abortion, and contraceptives" Here's CNN: "Pope Francis: Leave Gays Alone."

SLIDE SHOW: Pope Francis' small steps to lift liberals' hearts

There was also a cavalcade of social media postings. Daily Beast columnist Andrew Sullivan, an openly gay Catholic who had sneered at Francis' predecessor, Pope Benedict XVI, for calling homosexuality an "intrinsic disorder," tweeted ecstatically: "I am, I must confess, still reeling from Pope Francis' new, lengthy and remarkable interview." Actress Jane Fonda, who isn't a Catholic but who obviously sees Francis as an ally in her perennial battle against Republicans, tweeted: "Gotta love new Pope. He cares about poor, hates dogma. Unlike US Congress. Cutting $40bil from food stamps." Matthew Yglesias, a columnist for Slate, confessed in a tweet that he liked "a lot of this new Pope's ideas, but still have serious doubts about the part where Jesus dies for my sins and rises again."

Finally came the commentary. Yglesias' Slate colleague William Saletan wrote a 1,600-word column titled "Pope Francis Is a Liberal" and hinting that the pontiff was on the verge of ditching such Catholic doctrinal "mistakes" as papal infallibility and the ban on birth control. NARAL Pro-Choice America, the pro-abortion lobbying organization, posted an orange e-card on its Facebook page reading "Dear Pope Francis, Thank you. Signed, Pro-choice women everywhere." House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, who has been denounced by her fellow Catholics for supporting abortion rights, declared that Francis was "starting to sound like a nun" — a reference to American sisters who were censured by the Vatican for publicly challenging church doctrine and promoting "radical feminist themes incompatible with the Catholic faith."

Ironically, many conservative Catholics, who disagree with liberals on practically everything else, actually agree with their archenemies that Francis is poised to radically alter the Catholic Church. A tweet from the group blog Rorate Caeli — so arch-traditionalist that its banner consists of a photo of the last pre-Second Vatican Council pope, Pius XII, who died in 1958 — asserted that Francis may be "the Successor of St. Peter" but "he's not the owner of the Church or her doctrine." On Fr. Z's Blog, an Internet refuge for Catholics fed up with having to sing folk songs at Mass instead of Gregorian chants, a commenter wrote: "It's insulting to be told we Catholics who are fighting against the great evils of the day are spending too much time on such things (you know, those mortal sin things) and apparently are mean curmudgeons who aren't nice enough to people."

In fact, Francis, as he made clear in his interview, isn't likely to deviate from any aspect of traditional Catholic teaching. He reiterated that God doesn't "condemn and reject" anyone, including gays, but loves them, is cognizant of the pain they feel and yearns for them to repent of their sins and confess them. The very day after the interview was published, Francis, in an audience with Catholic gynecologists, vociferously denounced abortion as a symptom of today's "throwaway culture."

But that is in some ways beside the point. The Catholic Church really is changing, although not exactly in the fashion liberals would like. The church is changing because the world itself is changing. The hegemony of the West, technologically advanced but in demographic, economic, cultural and religious decline, may well be over. The previous pope, Benedict XVI, was born and raised in Germany, and his high aesthetic and intellectual ethos may have represented the last gasp of that rich and self-confident Western European civilization, rooted in Christianity, that gave us Michelangelo, Shakespeare and Mozart.

Christianity is moribund in the European West. It is, however, robustly alive in the East and in the global South, as religion scholar Philip Jenkins noted in his 2002 book, "The Next Christendom: The Coming of Global Christianity." And it is the Southern Hemisphere — Argentina — from which Francis has sprung.

Francis is the first pope of the Next Christendom. At the moment, it's not exactly a prosperous Christendom. It is, however, a Christendom that can turn out 3 million people to sleep in their cheap jeans and sweatshirts as they wait for Francis to say Mass on Copacabana beach. These are people for whom gay marriage is a First World problem, and for whom abortion is a desperate measure born of shredded family life and crushing poverty, rather than a "my body, my choice" political cause.

Francis was speaking to those people and for those people in his interview when he said that the church had to be more like a "field hospital after battle." He was reminding us that nobody is worthless, and that even in these degraded times, Christianity offers hope for all — and, most important, forgiveness.

Charlotte Allen writes frequently about politics and religion. She is the author of "The Human Christ: The Search for the Historical Jesus."

Copyright © 2013, Los Angeles Times


----------



## Rsgal

*CONFESSION*

Are all of our sins—past, present, and future—forgiven once and for all when we become Christians? Not according to the Bible or the early Church Fathers. Scripture nowhere states that our future sins are forgiven; instead, it teaches us to pray, "And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our deb...tors" (Matt. 6:12). 

The means by which God forgives sins after baptism is confession: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9). Minor or venial sins can be confessed directly to God, but for grave or mortal sins, which crush the spiritual life out of the soul, God has instituted a different means for obtaining forgiveness—the sacrament known popularly as confession, penance, or reconciliation. 

This sacrament is rooted in the mission God gave to Christ in his capacity as the Son of man on earth to go and forgive sins (cf. Matt. 9:6). Thus, the crowds who witnessed this new power "glorified God, who had given such authority to men" (Matt. 9:8; note the plural "men"). After his resurrection, Jesus passed on his mission to forgive sins to his ministers, telling them, "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (John 20:21–23). 

Since it is not possible to confess all of our many daily faults, we know that sacramental reconciliation is required only for grave or mortal sins—but it is required, or Christ would not have commanded it. 

Over time, the forms in which the sacrament has been administered have changed. In the early Church, publicly known sins (such as apostasy) were often confessed openly in church, though private confession to a priest was always an option for privately committed sins. Still, confession was not just something done in silence to God alone, but something done "in church," as theDidache (A.D. 70) indicates. 

Penances also tended to be performed before rather than after absolution, and they were much more strict than those of today (ten years’ penance for abortion, for example, was common in the early Church). 

But the basics of the sacrament have always been there, as the following quotations reveal. Of special significance is their recognition that confession and absolution must be received by a sinner before receiving Holy Communion, for "[w]hoever . . . eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord" (1 Cor. 11:27). 

*The Didache*
"Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure" (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]). 

*The Letter of Barnabas*
"You shall judge righteously. You shall not make a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend by bringing them together. You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light" (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]). 

*Ignatius of Antioch*
"For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ" (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110]). 

"For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop" (ibid., . 

*Irenaeus*
"[The Gnostic disciples of Marcus] have deluded many women. . . . Their consciences have been branded as with a hot iron. Some of these women make a public confession, but others are ashamed to do this, and in silence, as if withdrawing from themselves the hope of the life of God, they either apostatize entirely or hesitate between the two courses" (Against Heresies 1:22 [A.D. 189]). 

*Tertullian*
"[Regarding confession, some] flee from this work as being an exposure of themselves, or they put it off from day to day. I presume they are more mindful of modesty than of salvation, like those who contract a disease in the more shameful parts of the body and shun making themselves known to the physicians; and thus they perish along with their own bashfulness" (Repentance 10:1 [A.D. 203]). 

*Hippolytus*
"[The bishop conducting the ordination of the new bishop shall pray:] God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . . Pour forth now that power which comes from you, from your royal Spirit, which you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy apostles . . . and grant this your servant, whom you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power] to feed your holy flock and to serve without blame as your high priest, ministering night and day to propitiate unceasingly before your face and to offer to you the gifts of your holy Church, and by the Spirit of the high priesthood to have the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your command" (Apostolic Tradition 3 [A.D. 215]). 

*Origen*
"[A final method of forgiveness], albeit hard and laborious [is] the remission of sins through penance, when the sinner . . . does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and from seeking medicine, after the manner of him who say, ‘I said, "To the Lord I will accuse myself of my iniquity"’" (Homilies on Leviticus 2:4 [A.D. 248]). 

*Cyprian of Carthage*
"The apostle [Paul] likewise bears witness and says: ‘ . . . Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]. But [the impenitent] spurn and despise all these warnings; before their sins are expiated, before they have made a confession of their crime, before their conscience has been purged in the ceremony and at the hand of the priest . . . they do violence to [the Lord’s] body and blood, and with their hands and mouth they sin against the Lord more than when they denied him" (The Lapsed 15:1–3 (A.D. 251]). 

"Of how much greater faith and salutary fear are they who . . . confess their sins to the priests of God in a straightforward manner and in sorrow, making an open declaration of conscience. . . . I beseech you, brethren, let everyone who has sinned confess his sin while he is still in this world, while his confession is still admissible, while the satisfaction and remission made through the priests are still pleasing before the Lord" (ibid., 28). 

"inners may do penance for a set time, and according to the rules of discipline come to public confession, and by imposition of the hand of the bishop and clergy receive the right of Communion. [But now some] with their time [of penance] still unfulfilled . . . they are admitted to Communion, and their name is presented; and while the penitence is not yet performed, confession is not yet made, the hands of the bishop and clergy are not yet laid upon them, the Eucharist is given to them; although it is written, ‘Whosoever shall eat the bread and drink the cup of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]" (Letters 9:2 [A.D. 253]). 

"And do not think, dearest brother, that either the courage of the brethren will be lessened, or that martyrdoms will fail for this cause, that penance is relaxed to the lapsed, and that the hope of peace [i.e., absolution] is offered to the penitent. . . . For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace is given" (ibid., 51[55]:20). 

"But I wonder that some are so obstinate as to think that repentance is not to be granted to the lapsed, or to suppose that pardon is to be denied to the penitent, when it is written, ‘Remember whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works’ [Rev. 2:5], which certainly is said to him who evidently has fallen, and whom the Lord exhorts to rise up again by his deeds [of penance], because it is written, ‘Alms deliver from death’ [Tob. 12:9]" (ibid., 51[55]:22). 

*(cont'd)*


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## Rsgal

.....(cont'd)

*Aphraahat the Persian Sage*
"You [priests], then, who are disciples of our illustrious physician [Christ], you ought not deny a curative to those in need of healing. And if anyone uncovers his wound before you, give him the remedy of repentance. And he that is ashamed to make known his weakness, encourage him so that he will not hide it from you. And when he has revealed it to you, do not make it public, lest because of it the innocent might be reckoned as guilty by our enemies and by those who hate us" (Treatises 7:3 [A.D. 340]). 

*Basil the Great*
"It is necessary to confess our sins to those to whom the dispensation of God’s mysteries is entrusted. Those doing penance of old are found to have done it before the saints. It is written in the Gospel that they confessed their sins to John the Baptist [Matt. 3:6], but in Acts [19:18] they confessed to the apostles" (Rules Briefly Treated 288 [A.D. 374]). 

*John Chrysostom*
"Priests have received a power which God has given neither to angels nor to archangels. It was said to them: ‘Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose, shall be loosed.’ Temporal rulers have indeed the power of binding; but they can only bind the body. Priests, in contrast, can bind with a bond which pertains to the soul itself and transcends the very heavens. Did [God] not give them all the powers of heaven? ‘Whose sins you shall forgive,’ he says, ‘they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.’ What greater power is there than this? The Father has given all judgment to the Son. And now I see the Son placing all this power in the hands of men [Matt. 10:40; John 20:21–23]. They are raised to this dignity as if they were already gathered up to heaven" ACA Ingrida Di Mantoocese of the Missouri Valley Priesthood 3:5 [A.D. 387]). 

*Ambrose of Milan*
"For those to whom [the right of binding and loosing] has been given, it is plain that either both are allowed, or it is clear that neither is allowed. Both are allowed to the Church, neither is allowed to heresy. For this right has been granted to priests only" (Penance 1:1 [A.D. 388]). 

*Jerome*
"If the serpent, the devil, bites someone secretly, he infects that person with the venom of sin. And if the one who has been bitten keeps silence and does not do penance, and does not want to confess his wound . . . then his brother and his master, who have the word [of absolution] that will cure him, cannot very well assist him" (Commentary on Ecclesiastes 10:11 [A.D. 388]). 

*Augustine*
"When you shall have been baptized, keep to a good life in the commandments of God so that you may preserve your baptism to the very end. I do not tell you that you will live here without sin, but they are venial sins which this life is never without. Baptism was instituted for all sins. For light sins, without which we cannot live, prayer was instituted. . . . But do not commit those sins on account of which you would have to be separated from the body of Christ. Perish the thought! For those whom you see doing penance have committed crimes, either adultery or some other enormities. That is why they are doing penance. If their sins were light, daily prayer would suffice to blot them out. . . . In the Church, therefore, there are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptisms, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance" (Sermon to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15, 8:16 [A.D. 395]). 

*****************

*NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials*
_*presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.*_
_*Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004*_

_*IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827*_
_*permission to publish this work is hereby granted.*_
_*+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004*_


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## JaneBond007

A refreshing accurate, albeit secular, reporting of Pope Francis via World News:

By Matthew DeLuca, Staff Writer, NBC News

Pope Francis, using strong language to condemn a “Vatican-centric view” of the Roman Catholic Church, says that church leaders have too often been narcissists, “flattered and sickeningly excited by their courtiers.”

Extending his departure in style from his predecessor, Benedict XVI, Francis vowed in an interview with the Italian newspaper La Repubblica that he would do everything in his power to change that view.

“The church is or should go back to being a community of God’s people, and priests, pastors and bishops who have the care of souls, are at the service of the people of God,” he said.

The pope suggested that the church should rethink the relationship between its leaders and the faithful.

“Leaders of the Church have often been Narcissus, flattered and sickeningly excited by their courtiers. The court is the leprosy of the papacy,” he said.

Asked what he meant by “the court,” Francis said that he did not mean the Curia — the officials who govern the church from Vatican City — but something more like the quartermaster’s office in an army, which provides clothing and equipment to troops.

“It is Vatican-centric,” he said. “It sees and looks after the interests of the Vatican, which are still, for the most part, temporal interests. This Vatican-centric view neglects the world around us. I do not share this view and I'll do everything I can to change it.”

The pope said that he was against what he called “clericalists,” saying that when he meets one, “I suddenly become anti-clerical.” He referred to St. Paul’s outreach to pagans and other religions, said that the church should include people who feel excluded, and preach peace.

In a reference to the Second Vatican Council of the 1960s, which led to modern reforms in the church, the pope said: “This includes a dialogue with non-believers. After that, not so much was done in this direction. I have to the humility and ambition to do so.”

The interview was conducted last week in the Vatican guest house, where Francis, who has been praised for what is seen as a simpler and more humble approach to the papacy, lives in a low-key residence.

The interview appeared as Francis begins a three-day meeting with a group of eight cardinals gathered from around the world with the task of reforming the Vatican administration, the Curia.

Last month the pope said the church should not focus on issues like abortion, contraception, and gay marriage to the extent that it neglects other aspects of the faith.

“We have to find a new balance,” he said in an interview published in Jesuit journals. “Otherwise even the moral edifice of the church is likely to fall like a house of cards, losing the freshness and fragrance of the gospel.”

In the interview with La Repubblica, Francis disclosed some of his own fears before being elected by a conclave of cardinals in March.

“When in the conclave they elected me pope, I asked for some time alone before I accepted,” he said in the interview. “I was overwhelmed by great anxiety, then I closed my eyes and all thoughts, including the possibility of refusing, went away.”

Eugenio Scalfari, the co-founder and former editor of La Repubblica, who conducted the interview with Francis said he was “shocked” when the pope called to set up the interview.

 “I answered, and he simply said: ‘Good morning, it’s Pope Francis. You wrote me a letter in which you said you would have liked to meet me and get to know me, so here I am. Let’s book an appointment. Is Tuesday OK with you? The time is a bit of a pain, 3 p.m.…is that OK?’” said Scalfari recounting the conversation to NBC News.

Scalfari, 89, describes himself as an atheist. During the summer he posed a series of questions to Francis about atheism in an open letter. The pope responded to his questions in a lengthy opinion piece, with the simple byline “Francesco,” published in the newspaper on Sept.11. 

“The most surprising thing he told me was: ‘God is not Catholic.’ I asked him what he meant, since he is the leader of the Catholic Church, and he told me that ‘God is universal, and we are catholic in the sense of the way we worship him.”

The opportunity to interview the new leader of the Catholic Church was enough to awe even a seasoned reporter.

“In 60 years of career as a journalist, I interviewed many important people, and I became friends with some of them. But I never thought I could feel I would become a friend of a pope.”

NBC News Claudio Lavanga, the Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.


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## Lucia

This will be a strict reference thread for Roman Catholic books.  Bibles, study guides, references, podcasts, websites that we can all recommend and refer to for new and old sources to educate ourselves or continue our education/ maintain  in the Catholic faith.

Whether multigenerational cradle Catholic, newly minted convert, non-Catholic and curious about why we do what we do.  All are welcome. 

There will be another thread for open Q&A Disccusion for Catholics and non-Catholics alike.

Catholic Books, Study Guides, and References
https://www.longhaircareforum.com/threads/catholic-books-study-guides-and-references-etc.761517/

Catholic Random Thoughts
https://www.longhaircareforum.com/threads/catholic-random-thoughts.638851/

some Catholic info here as well:
https://longhaircareforum.com/threads/for-catholics-documentsarticles.626427/

Catholic Novenas and Prayers
https://www.longhaircareforum.com/threads/catholic-novenas-and-other-prayers.765049/

Catholic Q and A
Original
https://www.longhaircareforum.com/threads/for-catholics-q-a.606405/#post-15464749

Christian Forum Rules
https://longhaircareforum.com/threads/rules-for-christianity-forum.50150/

Regarding threads on various religions
https://longhaircareforum.com/threads/regarding-threads-on-various-religions.790853/
_________________
Index under topic or related topic, the  page number then post number will be listed (ex: P1#1) where you can find references, links etc...

*Thread Index:
*
Bibles Approved by Catholic Bishops, Catechism Books, Prayer Books, Prayer, Culture, History
P1#2, P1#3, P1#10, P2#52, P2#54, P3#62, P3#73, P3#80, P4#102

The Rosary, Our Lady
P1#3, P2#47, P3#61, P3#63, P4#116

Sacraments, Sacramentals
P3#74, P3#82,P4#119, P5#123,

Apologetics, Defending the Faith
P1#4, P1#13, P3#66, P3#76, P3#84, P3#87, P3#88, P3#89, P3#90, P4#109, P4#112, P5#122 P5#128, P5#131, P5#132, P5#137

Bible Study, Scripture Study, Catholic Doctrine, Theology
P1#3, P1#6, P1#8, P1#10, P1#12, P2#36, P2#39, P2#60, P3#64, P3#81, P3#82

Belief, Faith, Belief in God
P1#4, P1#12, P2#54

Marriage, Parenting, Family, Relationships, Courtship, Chastity, Commitment, Contraception, Abortion
P1#8, P1#21, P1#23, P2#49, P3#61, P3#70, P3#75, P3#77, P3#81, P5#130

Spiritual Warfare, Spiritual Protection
P1#10, P1#11, P2#53, P2#54, P3#76, P5#127, P5#133, P5#134

Atheism, New Age/Laws of Attraction LOA, Occult Practices, Witchcraft, Paganism,
P1#17, P3#67, P3#68, P3#69, P4#117

Random Info:
Where to buy Mantillas/Veils
P1#19

Discernment
P2#50, P3#81

Troubled Persons Retreat
P3#71

Steubenville Conferences
P3#72, P3#77, P3#79

Homeschool
P3#78


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## Lucia

St Ignatius Bible
http://www.amazon.com/Ignatius-Bibl...34578915&sr=1-2&keywords=roman+catholic+bible

St Ignatius Study Bible

http://www.amazon.com/Ignatius-Catholic-Study-Bible-Testament/dp/1586172506

St ignatius Compact Zippered Bible
http://www.amazon.com/Ignatius-Cath...586171011/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

Catechism of the Catholic Church

http://www.amazon.com/Catechism-Cat..._sim_14_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=1F2P2R1K8264C35HCQFA

Adult Catholic Catechism

http://www.amazon.com/United-States..._sim_14_4?ie=UTF8&refRID=1AF45Y6H3B5GRYAT5XDM


Study guide for adult catechism book

http://www.amazon.com/Study-Guide-Adult-Catholic-Catechism/dp/1592762069/ref=pd_bxgy_14_text_y

St Ignatius of Loyola autobiography - St Ignatius

http://www.amazon.com/Autobiography...swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&sr=1-4&qid=1434577845


http://www.amazon.com/The-Autobiography-Ignatius-Saint-Loyola/dp/1406853127/ref=pd_cp_14_2

New American Bible

http://www.amazon.com/NABRE-America...4579091&sr=1-12&keywords=roman+catholic+bible


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## Lucia

Traditional Catholic  Prayers
http://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Pray...al-Sources/dp/0895555956/ref=pd_bxgy_14_img_z

Pocket Book of Catholic Prayers
http://www.amazon.com/Pocket-Book-Catholic-Prayers/dp/089942032X/ref=pd_rhf_dp_s_cp_1?ie=UTF8&dpID=51iGNv0rHjL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_SL500_SR85,135_&refRID=10B4HX95WM0SYYBZKGJ6

Pray the Rosary
http://www.amazon.com/Pray-Rosary-C..._sim_14_6?ie=UTF8&refRID=1GS42MG5GH46TWP5B7BY

Rosary Handbook
http://www.amazon.com/The-Rosary-Handbook-Newcomers-Old-Timers/dp/1593250991/ref=pd_bxgy_14_img_y

Secret of the Rosary 
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0895550563?psc=1

Praying Rosary with Pope Francis
http://www.amazon.com/Praying-Franc..._sim_14_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=14V8F46XHYWR78NQDHAV

Real Men Pray the Rosary
http://www.amazon.com/Real-Men-Pray...d=1463806713&sr=1-12&keywords=pray+the+rosary

Rosary Meditations in Miniature
http://www.amazon.com/Rosary-Medita...d=1463806713&sr=1-11&keywords=pray+the+rosary

Understanding  Scripture -Scott Hahn
http://www.amazon.com/Understanding...576231&sr=1-1&keywords=scott+hahn+bible+study

Hail Holy Queen: The Mother of God in the Word of God -Scott Hahn...
http://www.amazon.com/Hail-Holy-Queen-Mother-Word/dp/0385501692/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

Five Pillars of Spiritual Life - Robert Spitzer
http://www.amazon.com/Five-Pillars-..._sim_14_4?ie=UTF8&refRID=00WD41TSZCBH1KY00XSM


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## Lucia

Answering Atheism: How to make the Case  for God with Logic and Charity - Trent Horn
http://www.amazon.com/Answering-Atheism-Make-Logic-Charity/dp/1938983432/ref=la_B00ESKK21A_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1434576938&sr=1-1

New Proofs for the Existence of God: Contributions of Contemporary Physics and Philosophy- Robert J Spitzer 

http://www.amazon.com/New-Proofs-Existence-God-Contributions/dp/0802863833/ref=la_B001K7TYHC_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1434577156&sr=1-1


Reasons to believe: How to understand, explain, and defend the Catholic Faith - Scott Hahn

http://www.amazon.com/Reasons-Believe-Understand-Explain-Catholic/dp/0385509359/ref=pd_sim_14_6?ie=UTF8&refRID=0A3RZCFQS5S2HCEENF4Z

Answering the New Atheism - Scott Hahn
http://www.amazon.com/Answering-New-Atheism-Dismantling-Dawkins/dp/1931018480/ref=pd_sim_14_9?ie=UTF8&refRID=0G1W6EJSZC29CN6ZWPPQ


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## Lucia

Ask any question (staying within forum rules of course) regarding Roman Catholicism, Faith in Jesus Christ, Mary Mother of Christ, Rosary, Novenas, purgatory, 7 Sacraments (  Baptism, Holy Communion/Eucharist, Confession/Recinciliation/Penance, Confirmation/Chrismation, Holy Matrimony, Holy Orders, Anoiting of the sick) etc  below and some one will answer. All are welcome, no judgment here, and there are no dumb questions.

There is what people believe about Catholics and who Catholics really are and what Catholics actually believe.

Catholic Books, Study Guides, and References
https://www.longhaircareforum.com/threads/catholic-books-study-guides-and-references-etc.761517/

Catholic Random Thoughts
https://www.longhaircareforum.com/threads/catholic-random-thoughts.638851/

some Catholic info here as well:
https://longhaircareforum.com/threads/for-catholics-documentsarticles.626427/

Catholic Novenas and Prayers
https://www.longhaircareforum.com/threads/catholic-novenas-and-other-prayers.765049/

Catholic Q and A
https://www.longhaircareforum.com/threads/catholic-q-a-discussion-all-welcome.761527/

Christian Forum Rules
https://longhaircareforum.com/threads/rules-for-christianity-forum.50150/

Regarding threads on various religions
https://longhaircareforum.com/threads/regarding-threads-on-various-religions.790853/


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## Lucia

The Trinity an introduction to Catholic Doctrine on the Truine God

http://www.amazon.com/Trinity-Intro...8-1-fkmr2&keywords=Catholic+trinity+explained

Gospel of John St Ignatius Catholic Study

http://www.amazon.com/Gospel-John-I...F8&qid=1434580531&sr=8-13&keywords=scott+hahn

Catholic Bible Dictionary
http://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Bibl..._title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1434580602&sr=8-13-spell

Catholic Verse finder Bible cheat sheet
http://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Vers..._sim_14_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=1434PKW0E1FKCF3XPHEV

St Augustine Confessions
http://www.amazon.com/Confessions-O...0963&sr=1-1&keywords=st+augustine+confessions


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## kanozas

@Lucia

Re-inventing the wheel,  It's been around for a few years now.  If you  head a new thread or search older ones under "For Catholics:....." and you will pull up many threads for that very purpose.  There's just not that many of us here and maybe that's why it appeared we had no threads or participation.   But maybe this new one will revive the old discussions.

I don't know if you were around during the time that the CF almost closed down in some ways for the request of a sub-forum which was not granted.    Catholics had practically no leeway to express themselves without counter opinions on our theology base so you couldn't even post/ask, express yourself in a catholic manner without being condemned.  But you know, Shimmie set it right.  I thank her for that.  Several people apologized to each other and there's been peace ever since.  I just hope it continues.   I personally don't like legalistic stuffs because they are usually full of personal opinions touted as G-d's unmutable laws.  For example, how you should dress (pants not ok, skirt ok, above knee not ok, no shoulders etc.), how you should live as a single woman (alone, with parents)  etc.  

I would say the first place to gain insight is Mass and to pay attention and participate in the liturgy.  Take an RCIA again (for converts) or biblical studies at the parish.  Those are good resources you posted for continued catholic education.


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## kanozas

http://www.theologyofthebody.net/


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## Lucia

A theology of the body -Pope John Paul II

http://www.amazon.com/Man-Woman-He-Created-Them/dp/0819874213

Love and responsibility - Cardinal Wojtyla (Pope John Paul II now St John Paul) 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/08..._m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0N4E5JM3HATTJ3FBYKM7


If you really loved me - Jason Evert

http://www.amazon.com/You-Really-Loved-Questions-Relationships/dp/1933919248/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1434608822&sr=11&keywords=if+you+really+loved+me


Scott Hahn genesis to Jesus interview


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## Belle Du Jour

Awesome resources!  I'm on a book ban LOL since I have a lot to work through but I'm saving for future reference.


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## kanozas

http://www.interfaithfamily.com/new...ommunity/The_Jewish-Catholic_Connection.shtml

*The Jewish-Catholic Connection*
By Julie Wiener
Reprinted with permission from _The Jewish Week_.

July 16, 2008--A few months ago, Pope Benedict XVI, decked out in trademark white robes and white skullcap, became the first pontiff to enter an American synagogue.

The visit to Manhattan's Park East Synagogue--where the pontiff apparently opened his speech with a "shalom"--was an indicator of how, despite some stumbling blocks, Catholic-Jewish relations have never been better.

The same might be said for Catholic-Jewish relationships.





Rabbi Arthur Schneier presents Pope Benedict XVI with a Seder Plate at the Park East Synagogue in New York. REUTERS/Gary Hershorn.
Since my husband, Joe, is a lapsed Catholic, my radar is always up for Jewish-Catholic marriages. However, in two years of writing this column, I have not had to look far for examples of such couplings: whether the topic is gentiles at the seder table or women who convert to Judaism after many years of marriage, virtually every interfaith family I encounter is Jewish-Catholic. And the same is true in my social circle and extended family, despite the occasional Jewish-Protestant or Jewish-Hindu pairing.

I'm not the only one who's noticed this Catholic-Jewish attraction. Suzette Cohen, a longtime facilitator in Atlanta of the Mothers Circle, a program for non-Jewish women raising Jewish children, estimates that at least 60 percent of her participants are Catholic or formerly Catholic even though she's "in Georgia, a Baptist part of the world."

In his recent book, _The New American Judaism: The Way Forward on Challenging Issues From Intermarriage to Jewish Identity_ (Palgrave Macmillan), Rabbi Arthur Blecher notes that in the approximately 1,000 Washington, D.C.-area interfaith couples he has interviewed in the past two decades, slightly more than half of the gentile spouses were Catholic. "It made no difference whether a man or woman was the Jewish partner," he writes, adding later that Jews and Catholics share a "social affinity."

The U.S. Religion Landscape Survey released this spring by the Washington, D.C.-based Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life also confirmed the trend, finding that 12 percent of married Jews have Catholic spouses, while only 7 percent have Protestant spouses (the rest are married to Jews, atheists or people of other faiths). That's in spite of the fact that American Protestants outnumber American Catholics nearly 2 to 1.

Of course the Pew study, which drew on a miniscule sample of 682 Jews, is not the most reliable source of Jewish demographic information. And there is little other data on the topic. But even number crunchers note that the anecdotal evidence about Jewish-Catholic couples has some weight.

Len Saxe, director of the Steinhardt Social Research Institute at Brandeis' Cohen Center for Modern Jewish Studies, says that while his own research on interfaith families hasn't examined the disproportionate number of Catholic partners, the trend "shouldn't be surprising."

The majority of American Protestants today are Evangelicals--"folks who are socio-demographically very different from Jews" while Catholics tend to cluster in the same East Coast and Midwestern metropolitan hubs that American Jews have traditionally called home, Saxe notes.

Lisa Stein, an Irish Catholic in suburban Chicago who is in the process of converting to Judaism (and, in case the name didn't tip you off, is married to a Jew), says that the two cultures share a "huge emphasis on family and family history but have styles different enough that it keeps it really interesting."

For example, "when his family gets together, it's always desserts and pastries," she laughs. "When my family gets together, it's whiskey and wine."

Indeed, my husband Joe frequently laments the poor booze selection at the Jewish functions we attend, while the grub his French Canadian and Irish kin serve up makes the lamest kiddush luncheon look gourmet.

I must confess, I entered our marriage with many negative stereotypes about my husband's people. Although my hometown, Pittsburgh, has a large Catholic population, I grew up in a Jewish enclave and, because many Catholics attended parochial schools, the few gentiles in my public school classes were mostly Protestant. Snobbily (and erroneously), I admit, I thought of Catholics as socially conservative, poorly educated anti-Semites with working-class Pittsburgh accents; however, in my years with my liberal, upwardly mobile, doctorate-holding, philo-Semitic, New England-reared hubby my thinking has, fortunately, matured.

As I've learned more about both Judaism and Catholicism, I see many parallels in the two religions, which--in contrast to Protestantism--both emphasize ritual and good deeds over faith and communal worship over a personal relationship with God. While the two are in many ways poles apart, both tend to place a high premium on the obligation of individuals and government to help the poor. And as Joe often notes on Shabbat, Jewish and Catholic rituals may differ in their meaning and symbolism, but they share common elements: candles, bread and wine. Both also employ sacred languages and, just as the Reform movement, which once eliminated most Hebrew from worship, has reintroduced it, the Catholic Church has in recent years brought back some Latin.

For Catholics like my husband and Stein who miss the ritual but not the dogma or hierarchy of the Church, liberal Judaism offers an attractive alternative, one that in many cases poses less of a threat to their Catholic relatives than other faiths--after all, Judaism is the source of Catholicism, whereas Protestantism was founded as a repudiation of it.

In addition to the geographic and spiritual overlaps, American Jews and Catholics share much culturally. While this is changing with the influx of (mostly Catholic) Latino immigrants, American Catholics have long tended, like American Jews, to be white ethnic descendants of late 19th- and early 20th-century European immigrants. Perhaps because of this, both groups share a certain alienation from the Protestant majority that once held court, a sense (whether fair or not) that WASPs are humorless and repressed.

Of course Jewish-Catholic pairs, while dominant today, probably won't be for long. That's because the white ethnic strain of American Catholicism is giving way to the Latino one, a group that, at least for now, hasn't yet made it in large numbers to the highly educated, upper-middle-class circles American Jews frequent. Instead, those same circles are increasingly populated by Asian-Americans, growing numbers of whom--if anecdotal reports are to be trusted--are marrying Jews.

For now, however, while it's not every day the pope shows up at shul, on any given Shabbat you can bet that at least a few of his adherents and former adherents are sitting in the synagogue pews.


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## kanozas

http://www.usnews.com/news/world/ar...cuador-leg-of-samerica-trip-next-stop-bolivia
*Pope to Bolivia: We Have a Role to Play*
*Pope insists on church role in Bolivia amid efforts by Morales to limit Catholic influence.*
*




Pope Francis is presented with a gift of a crucifix carved into a wooden hammer and sickle, the Communist symbol uniting labor and peasants, by Bolivian President Evo Morales in La Paz, Bolivia, on Wednesday.  

Associated Press  July 8, 2015 | 11:05 p.m. EDT  + More

 
 
 





By NICOLE WINFIELD and CARLOS VALDEZ, Associated Press

LA PAZ, Bolivia (AP) — Pope Francis arrived in Bolivia on Wednesday on the second leg of his South American tour and immediately insisted that the Catholic Church continue to play an important role in society amid efforts by the government of President Evo Morales to curb its influence. He later called for dialogue between Bolivia and Chile over their longtime border dispute.

Morales hugged the pope as he descended from the Boliviana de Aviacion plane and hung a pouch around his neck of woven of alpaca with indigenous trimmings. It is of the type commonly used to hold coca leaves, which are chewed by people in the Andes to alleviate altitude sickness. It wasn't known if Francis chewed any leaves, though he was served mate tea made with coca leaves, chamomile and annis on the plane from Quito, Ecuador.

La Paz stands at 4,000 meters (about 13,120 feet) above sea level, and the Vatican decided to keep the pope's stay to just four hours to limit any problems for the 78-year-old pontiff, who has only one full lung. Francis, though, seemed in fine form, bundled against the cold and wind by a white shawl that he donned for his popemobile ride into town past thousands of people who came to greet him, waving handkerchiefs and singing songs of welcome.









Woman in wheelchair lifted toward Pope Francis
KGUN - Tucson, AZ






At an airport welcoming ceremony with Morales by his side, Francis praised Bolivia for taking "important steps" to include the poor and marginalized in the political and economic life of the country, South America's poorest.

Morales came to power championing Bolivia's 36 indigenous groups and enshrined their rights in the constitution, and under his leadership Bolivia's economy has boomed thanks to high prices for its natural gas and minerals. But Morales has roiled the local church by taking a series of anti-clerical initiatives, including a new constitution that made the overwhelmingly Catholic nation a secular country.

In his speech, Francis noted the Catholic faith took "deep root" in Bolivia centuries ago "and has continued to shed its light upon society, contributing to the development of the nation and shaping its culture."

"The voice of the bishops, which must be prophetic, speaks to society in the name of the church, our mother, from her preferential, evangelical option for the poor," he said.

[READ: Racial Politics and Hugo Chavez's Failed Socialist Legacy]

Morales, for his part, recalled how the Catholic Church in the past was on the side of the oppressors of Bolivia's people, three-quarters of whom are of indigenous origin. But Morales, an Aymara Indian known for anti-imperialist and socialist stands, said things have changed with this pope and the Bolivian people are greeting Francis as someone who is "helping in the liberation of our people."

"He who betrays a poor person, betrays Pope Francis," Morales said.

In a deeply personal gesture soon after he arrived, Francis stopped his motorcade along the highway heading into town at the site where a Jesuit priest, the Rev. Luis Espinal, was left in 1980 after being detained and tortured by Bolivia's paramilitary squads.

"Remember one of our brothers, a victim of interests that didn't want him to fight for Bolivia's freedom," Francis said from the popemobile to a crowd gathered at the site. "Father Espinal preached the Gospel, the Gospel that bothered them, and because of this they got rid of him."

Morales gave Francis some politically loaded gifts, including one apparently with a link to Espinal — a crucifix carved into a wooden hammer and sickle, the Communist symbol uniting labor and peasants. The slain priest had a similar crucifix.

[MORE: Pope Francis' Climate Change Encyclical Presents Challenge to GOP Field]

Another politically charged gift was a copy of "The Book of the Sea," which is about the loss of Bolivia's access to the sea during the War of the Pacific with Chile in 1879-83. Bolivia has taken its bid to renegotiate access to the Pacific to the International Court of Justice, arguing that its poverty is due in part to being land-locked. Chile has argued the court has no jurisdiction since Bolivia's borders were defined by a 1904 treaty.

Francis referred to the border dispute in a speech to civil authorities later in La Paz, calling for countries of the region to improve their diplomatic relations "in order to avoid conflicts between sister peoples and advance frank and open dialogue about their problems."

"I'm thinking about the sea, here," he said. "Dialogue is indispensable. Instead of raising walls, we need to be building bridges."

Francis denounced the constant "atmosphere of inequality" in Bolivia, where despite its economic advances in recent years nearly one in four Bolivians lives on $2 a day. And while prosperity has come to some with economic growth averaging 5 percent annually, it has "opened the door to the evil of corruption," Francis said.

Bolivia has a notoriously corrupt judiciary, with some 1,000 judges and 300 prosecutors under investigation or on trial for corruption.

[LINK: Pope Francis Finds Favor Across the World]

After the brief stop in La Paz, the pope flew to Santa Cruz in Bolivia's central lowlands, where he will spend the rest of his visit to the country.

Francis and Morales have met on several occasions, most recently in October when the president, a former coca farmer, participated in a Vatican summit of grassroots groups of indigenous and advocates for the poor who have been championed by Francis. Their shared views on caring for society's poorest, and the need for wealthy countries to drastically change course to address climate change, have bumped up against Morales' clashes with the local clergy.

As soon as Morales took office in 2006, for example, the Bible and cross were removed from the presidential palace. A new constitution in 2009 made the overwhelmingly Catholic nation a secular state and Andean religious rituals replaced Catholic rites at official state ceremonies.

"There are some challenging issues in terms of Evo Morales taking on a quite combative role against the church, which he sees as a challenge to his authority," said Clare Dixon, Latin American regional director for CAFOD, the English Catholic aid agency. "The church is also questioning some decisions made about development in the country."

[READ MORE: Briefing: Pope Looks to the Future, S.C. Church Has Racially Charged Past]

Morales had pledged to safeguard the interests of Bolivia's indigenous. But he has alienated lowlands natives by promoting a highway through a nature reserve and authorizing oil and natural gas exploration in wilderness areas. Cheered by environmentalists abroad for his demand that wealthy nations do more to combat climate change, Morales has been under fire at home from critics, including activists in the church, who say he puts extracting petroleum ahead of clean water and forests.

Francis is expected to raise environmental concerns during his Bolivian sojourn, just as he did in Ecuador. Other highlights of the trip include his visit to the notoriously violent Palmasola prison, where a battle among inmate gangs in 2013 left 30 people dead. As in many Latin American prisons, inmates largely control the inside of Palmasola, which teems with some 3,500 prisoners, more than four in five still awaiting trial.

___

Associated Press writers Frank Bajak and Paola Flores contributed to this report.

___

Nicole Winfield on Twitter: www.twitter.com/nwinfield

Copyright 2015 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.*


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## kanozas

I champion the struggle to overturn the colonial mind and policies in Bolivia, which Evo Morales is doing.  However, it's pretty clear that he's just about as corrupt as any other.  He's done some good but I wouldn't trust him, yet.   Talk about politically-charged gift!  And it is true that the Church persecuted Indigenous and African peoples, for centuries.  Our own Missions is SHAMEFUL.  And we are considering making one of the organizers of those missions a saint?  And he was known to beat our people?  SMh.  But I'm against all the politicking.  Speak the truth and have not ulterior motives.  Morales is dangerous, imo.  Yet to be seen widely.


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## Lucia

Didache Bible
With study notes

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/19392...ache+bible&dpPl=1&dpID=31nPdcCYZnL&ref=plSrch

Catholic bible study the great adventure


http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1934217174/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?qid=1436656524&sr=1-2&pi=AC_SX200_QL40&keywords=the+great+adventure+bible+study&dpPl=1&dpID=51x2Y6f+R5L&ref=plSrch


Understanding the scriptures

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/18901..._rd_t=36701&pf_rd_p=2068141862&pf_rd_i=mobile

Persuasive pro life

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/19416...trent+horn&dpPl=1&dpID=51ZCNL2TNsL&ref=plSrch

Manual for spiritual warfare - Paul Thigpen 

*Warning : this is  heavy stuff please prepare yourself with a weekend  or 3 day fast prayer bible study and meditation beforehand. *

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/16189..._rd_t=36701&pf_rd_p=2068141862&pf_rd_i=mobile


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## Lucia

Amazing lecture by Michael Voris



> Never forget who your enemy is and never forget who your ally is




Fr Mitch Pacwa ewtn online live

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/ewtn/id82234582?mt=2#episodeGuid=http://ewtn.edgeboss.net/download/ewtn/audiolibrary/ol_20150715.mp3


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## kanozas

The RCC's response to criminality:

http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-act...rative-justice/crime-and-criminal-justice.cfm


It is a very complex issue but at the heart of it all is the culture of death.


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## Belle Du Jour

Please post prayer intentions, group novenas, and other prayers here!


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## Belle Du Jour

Forms of Devotion
What are Novenas?
From an article in MARIAN HELPER magazine, Fall 1993.

If you mention novenas, you're likely to get mixed reactions, with extremes at both ends of the scale.

Some view novenas as extraordinarily powerful prayers with guaranteed results — like a legal contract with God: if you fulfill the conditions, God grants your request.

Others feel that novenas are simply a waste of time — an outdated form of prayer practiced by overly pious people looking for spiritual magic.

As is often the case, neither extreme is accurate, though each reflects some truth. Making a novena is indeed a valid, powerful way to pray, but if misunderstood can become an act of superstition rather than prayer.

What It Is

The word "novena" comes from the Latin meaning "nine each." It is a prayer or Holy Mass that is offered for nine consecutive days.

Scripturally, novenas take their origin from the nine days of prayer before Pentecost. After the Ascension, the apostles and disciples, in obedience to the Lord, gathered in the upper room and devoted themselves to constant prayer, together with Mary, the Mother of Jesus (Acts 1:4-5).

The nine days of prayer can also be considered as a representation of the nine months of Jesus in the womb of Mary. Like Jesus our Head, we His Body are also to be born of Mary and the Holy Spirit. The nine days of prayer were gestation prior to the birth of the Church on Pentecost. Since then, each novena can be considered as a time of gestation before a new outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

What It Is Not

Over the centuries, the practice of making novenas grew in popularity, and inevitably, abuses developed like weeds in a garden.

One abuse is absolute guarantees of positive results. There are no absolute guarantees. Prayer must always be made according to the will of God. Even Christ Himself prayed, "Not my will, Father, but Yours be done."

We pray with trust that God will give us what He knows is best for us.

Another abuse is the guarantee that a particular novena will never fail if we publish the novena prayer. These mistaken ideas can often cause great confusion and lead to superstition.

Persistent Prayer

Novenas should be considered persistent prayer. Jesus exhorted us to continually ask, seek, and knock for what we need (Lk 11:10), and he gave us strong examples of the value of persistence in prayer — like the widow who kept pleading with the judge (Lk 18:1-8) and the man who woke his neighbor in the middle of the night to give him bread (Lk 11:5-9).

St. Faustina also gives us a powerful example of persistence in prayer. Novenas were an important and regular part of her spiritual life. She made novenas of different kinds and for various needs. For her they were times of intense and persevering prayer.

For us, too, novenas can be times of persevering prayer for special needs and of preparation for solemn feasts.

Novenas also can help us to focus our intentions so that we can more effectively give thanks for God's response to our needs — whatever they are — placing ever greater trust in the Lord Jesus.


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## Belle Du Jour

I started a novena to St. Ann yesterday. Please join me! 

http://www.praymorenovenas.com/blog/the-next-novena-the-st-anne-novena-2015


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## Xaragua

I'll join.  I am not Catholic but i have prayed novena before and i have tried to do a novena to st Anne but never completed it. So let's do it, i just need to memorize the prayer.


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## Belle Du Jour

Xaragua said:


> I'll join.  I am not Catholic but i have prayed novena before and i have tried to do a novena to st Anne but never completed it. So let's do it, i just need to memorize the prayer.



You don't need to memorize it!  You can get it from the Pray More Novenas website.  EWTN also has novenas.  Sometimes I even print them out.   Thank you for joining!


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## Belle Du Jour

On second thought, we can post the novenas on this thread to make it even easier.


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## Belle Du Jour

*St. Anne Novena, Day Two*
Glorious Saint Anne, how can you be otherwise than overflowing with tenderness toward sinners like myself, since you are the grandmother of Him who shed His blood for us, and the mother of her whom the saints call advocate of sinners? To you, therefore, I address my prayers with confidence.

Vouchsafe to commend me to Jesus and Mary so that, at your request, I may be granted remission of my sins, perseverance, the love of God, charity for all mankind, and the special grace of…

(State your intention here.)

…for which I stand in need at the present time. O most powerful protectress, let me not lose my soul, but pray for me that through the merits of Jesus Christ and the intercession of Mary, I may have the great happiness of seeing them, of loving and praising them with you through all eternity.

Amen.

Pray for us, Saint Anne!

That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.


Find the Original Here: http://www.praymorenovenas.com/st-anne-novena/#ixzz3gjbOqm2B


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## Lucia




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## Belle Du Jour

*St. Anne Novena, Day three*
Beloved of Jesus, Mary and Joseph, mother of the Queen of Heaven, take us and all who are dear to us under your special care. Obtain for us the virtues you instilled in the heart of her who was destined to become Mother of God, and the graces with which you were endowed. O model of Christian womanhood, pray that we may imitate your example in our homes and families, listen to our petitions,

(State your intention here.)

Guardian of the infancy and childhood of the most Blessed Virgin Mary, obtain the graces necessary for all who enter the marriage state, that imitating your virtues they may sanctify their homes and lead the souls entrusted to their care to eternal glory. Amen.

Pray for us, Saint Anne!

That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.



Find the Original Here: http://www.praymorenovenas.com/st-anne-novena/#ixzz3gpeNgY2C


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## Xaragua

I have  question do we have to pray the novena out loud or can they be done in silence?


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## kanozas

However you wish.  It's all prayer but it doesn't guarantee anything.  Be your most comfortable with it.


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## Lucia

Belle Du Jour said:


> I started a novena to St. Ann yesterday. Please join me!
> 
> http://www.praymorenovenas.com/blog/the-next-novena-the-st-anne-novena-2015



I'm IN! Again.
I got my daily email reminder from the pray more novenas site. Great little tool I'm always forgetting start days.  I may do 2 days of morning and night so I can catch up the days and end on the feast  day.  Of course a novena can be prayed at any one as well.

http://lordcalls.com/prayers-to-saints/nine-day-novena-to-st-ann


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## Belle Du Jour

St. Anne Novena, Day Four

Glorious Saint Anne, I kneel in confidence at your feet, for you also have tasted the bitterness and sorrow of life. My need, the cause of my request, is…

(State your intention here.)

Good Saint Anne, you who did suffer much during the twenty years that preceded your glorious maternity, I beseech you, by all your sufferings and humiliations, to grant my prayer.

I pray to you, through your love for your glorious spouse Saint Joachim, through your love for your immaculate child, through the joy you did feel at the moment of her happy birth, not to refuse me. Bless me, bless my family and all who are dear to me, so that some day we may all be with you in the glory of heaven, for all eternity.

Amen.

Pray for us, Saint Anne!

That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.


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## Galadriel

I love the St. Anne novena!


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## Belle Du Jour

Still in the middle of the novena but the feast day is today.  Sts. Anne and Joachim, pray for us!


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## Belle Du Jour

St. Anne Novena, Day Five

Great Saint Anne, how far I am from resembling you. I so easily give way to impatience and discouragement; and so easily give up praying when God does not at once answer my request. Prayer is the key to all heavenly treasures and I cannot pray, because my weak faith and lack of confidence fail me at the slightest delay. O my powerful protectress, come to my aid, listen to my petition…

(State your intention here.)

Make my confidence and fervor, supported by the promise of Jesus Christ, increase as the trial to which God in His goodness subjects me is prolonged, that I may obtain like you more than I can venture to ask for. In the future I will remember that I am made for heaven and not for earth; for eternity and not for time; that consequently I must ask, above all, the salvation of my soul which is assured to all who pray properly and who persevere in prayer.

Amen.

Pray for us, Saint Anne!

That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

*St. Anne Novena, Day Six*
Glorious Saint Anne, mother of the Mother of God, I beg your powerful intercession for the freedom from my sins and the assistance I need in my troubles…

(State your intention here.)

What can I not hope for if you deign to take me under your protection? The Most High has been pleased to grant the prayers of sinners, whenever you have been charitable enough to be their advocate.

Therefore, I beg you to help me in all spiritual and temporal dangers; to guide me in the true path of Christian perfection, and finally to obtain for me the grace of a happy death, so that I may contemplate your beloved Jesus and daughter Mary in your loving companionship throughout all eternity.

Amen.

Pray for us, Saint Anne!

That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.


Find the Original Here: http://www.praymorenovenas.com/st-anne-novena/#ixzz3h9JYbXF5


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## Belle Du Jour

St. Anne Novena, Day Seven

O Good Saint Anne, so justly called the mother of the infirm, the cure for those who suffer from disease, look kindly upon the sick for whom I pray.

Alleviate their sufferings; cause them to sanctify their sufferings by patience and complete submission to the Divine Will; finally deign to obtain health for them and with it the firm resolution to honor Jesus, Mary, and yourself by the faithful performance of duties.

But, merciful Saint Anne, I ask you above all for the salvation of my soul, rather than bodily health, for I am convinced that this fleeting life is given us solely to assure us a better one. I cannot obtain that better life without the help of God\’s graces. I earnestly beg them of you for the sick and for myself, especially the petition for which I am making in this novena…

(State your intention here.)

…through the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ, through the intercession of His Immaculate Mother, and through your efficacious and powerful mediation, I pray.

Amen.

Pray for us, Saint Anne!

That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.


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## Belle Du Jour

St. Anne Novena, Day Eight

Remember, O Saint Anne, you whose name signifies grace and mercy, that never was it known that anyone who fled to your protection, implored your help, and sought your intercession was left unaided. Inspired with this confidence, I fly unto you, good, and kind mother; I take refuge at your feet, burdened with the weight of my sins. O holy mother of the Immaculate Virgin Mary, despise not my petition…

(State your intention here.)

…but hear me and grant my prayer.

Amen.

Pray for us, Saint Anne!

That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.


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## Belle Du Jour

St. Anne Novena, Day Nine

Most holy mother of the Virgin Mary, glorious Saint Anne, I, a miserable sinner, confiding in your kindness, choose you today as my special advocate. I offer all my interests to your care and maternal solicitude. O my very good mother and advocate, deign to accept me and to adopt me as your child.

O glorious Saint Anne, I beg you, by the passion of my most loving Jesus, the Son of Mary, your most holy daughter, to assist me in all the necessities both of my body and my soul. Venerable Mother, I beg you to obtain for me the favor I seek in this novena…

(State your intention here.)

…and the grace of leading a life perfectly conformable in all things to the Divine Will. I place my soul in your hands and in those of your kind daughter. I ask for your favor in order that, appearing under your patronage before the Supreme Judge, He may find me worthy of enjoying His Divine Presence in your holy companionship in Heaven.

Amen.

Pray for us, Saint Anne!

That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.


Find the Original Here: http://www.praymorenovenas.com/st-anne-novena/#ixzz3hQbWDajG


----------



## ivyness

As a catholic i really struggle with the concept of novenas. But then again i struggle with a lot but believe that by the grace of God i'll figure it all out.


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## Belle Du Jour

ivyness said:


> As a catholic i really struggle with the concept of novenas. But then again i struggle with a lot but believe that by the grace of God i'll figure it all out.



Would you elaborate?  Is it the concept of novenas  or just remembering to pray for the full 9 days?


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## Belle Du Jour

Please remember to pray for those babies who are aborted as well as those who participated in the abortion and those who support abortion.


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## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> Please remember to pray for those babies who are aborted as well as those who participated in the abortion and those who support abortion.



Saint Therese, Little Flower, you promised to spend your Heaven doing good upon earth. We pray that through your petitions before God, that help arrives to those desperately in need of it, peace is given to trouble hearts where there is darkness and turmoil, and love supplants hatred, and life triumphs over death. Pray for us, St. Therese, that we may serve Jesus by proclaiming the Truth and proclaiming His Word, but more importantly, by living in His Truth and in His Word. Amen.

Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in this day of battle. Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the Devil. may GOD rebuke him, we humbly pray. And do thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan, and all the evil spirits who roam the earth seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.

May His Divine Assistance be with you all. In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.


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## Begoody

http://www.radioreplies.info is  a good online Catholic Apologetics resource. It's old but helpful.


----------



## Lucia

Aug 2 St Philomena novena started 

St. Philomena is known as the protectress of the innocent, the patron saint of babies, of the children of Mary, as well as the patron saint of forgotten and desperate causes. She is also known for her intercession for healing, and many miracles have happened through her prayers. 

Pope Gregory XVI said, "Whatever you ask from her, she will obtain for you." 
We would like to start this novena by praying for your specific intentions -- with hope and confidence that St. Philomena will pray for you! We ask that you also pray for the intentions of everyone who is joining us in prayer. 

You can post your prayer intentions here:

http://www.praymorenovenas.com/st-philomena-novena/#respond

Here are the prayers for today:
*Day 1 - The St. Philomena Novena*
Dearest St. Philomena, your prayers are powerful because you are so close to Our Lord. Your child-like faith and devotion are an inspiration to all of the faithful. Many miracles have occurred as a result of your intercession. In your closeness to Our Lord, please lift up these my intentions in prayer…

(state your intentions)

St. Philomena, at such a young age, you gave everything to Jesus to be come a consecrated virgin for the Kingdom. Giving even more, you gave your live as you suffered a martyr’s death to preserve your gift to our Lord. Pray for me, that I might have the same faith and willingness to accept God’s will no matter the cost.

Amen.


----------



## Lucia

Peace be with you!

Today let's pray for something that so many members of the Pray More Novenas community need right now.

Let's pray for healing. 

St. Philomena is a great intercessor for those who are sick and suffering. There are many stories of people who attribute their miraculous healing to the intercession of St. Philomena. 

Let's pray that St. Philomena will intercede for those who are sick, suffering and in need of healing.

You can post your personal prayer intentions here:

http://www.praymorenovenas.com/st-philomena-novena/#respond

Here are the prayers for today:
*Day 2 - The St. Philomena Novena *
Dearest St. Philomena, your prayers are powerful because you are so close to Our Lord. Your child-like faith and devotion are an inspiration to all of the faithful. Many miracles have occurred as a result of your intercession. In your closeness to Our Lord, please lift up these my intentions in prayer…

(state your intentions)

St. Philomena, at such a young age, you gave everything to Jesus to become a consecrated virgin for the Kingdom. Giving even more, you gave your life as you suffered a martyr’s death to preserve your gift to our Lord. Pray for me, that I might have the same faith and willingness to accept God’s will no matter the cost.

Amen.


----------



## Lucia

Peace be with you!

Yesterday we prayed for healing. Today, let's pray for the strength to endure the trials we each are currently facing in our lives. Let's pray for greater faith during these trials -- that our faith will not fade. 

Let's ask St. Philomena to pray for our healing, but that if it is not God's will right now, to pray for us to have the strength to accept His will and to live it out joyfully and faithfully. Here are the prayers for today:
*Day 3 - The St. Philomena Novena *
Dearest St. Philomena, your prayers are powerful because you are so close to Our Lord. Your child-like faith and devotion are an inspiration to all of the faithful. Many miracles have occurred as a result of your intercession. In your closeness to Our Lord, please lift up these my intentions in prayer…

(state your intentions)

St. Philomena, at such a young age, you gave everything to Jesus to become a consecrated virgin for the Kingdom. Giving even more, you gave your life as you suffered a martyr’s death to preserve your gift to our Lord. Pray for me, that I might have the same faith and willingness to accept God’s will no matter the cost.

Amen.


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## Galadriel

I think I was late checking my email, but I'm jumping into the St. Philomena novena (I guess I'll be finishing a couple of days after you  )

Please remember Mr. David Daileden and the Center for Medical Progress in your intentions.


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## Lucia

*

We will begin praying this novena August 2nd and her feast day is August 11th.

Find the Original Here: http://www.praymorenovenas.com/st-philomena-novena/#ixzz3hxohRPXj*

*About St. Philomena*
Although very little is known about St. Philomena, devotion to her is widespread. She is known as a powerful intercessor and many saints and popes have had a devotion to her.

For hundreds of years, St. Philomena was entirely unknown, but then in 1802 the bones of a young girl were discovered in the catacomb of St. Priscilla in Rome. The tomb indicated that she was likely a virgin and martyr named Philomena. In 1805 the remains were moved to Mugnano, Italy and there were soon reports of miraculous healings taking place there.

According to catholic.org, “Her popularity soon became widespread, with her most memorable devotees being St. John Vianney, St. Madeleine Sophie Barat, St. Peter Eymard, and St. Peter Chanel. After being miraculously cured, Ven. Pauline Jaricot insisted that Pope Gregory XVI begin an examination for the beatification of St. Philomena, who was to become known as the “wonder worker”. After hundreds of other miraculous cures, she was beatified in 1837. St. Philomena, who the pope named as the Patroness of the Living Rosary and the Patroness of the Children of Mary, is the only person recognized as a saint solely on the basis of her powerful intercession.”



Find the Original Here: http://www.praymorenovenas.com/st-philomena-novena/#ixzz3hxoFhwOM


----------



## Lucia

Peace be with you!

Saint Philomena is known as the patron saint of babies and the protectress of the innocent. 

So today, let's pray for all unborn babies. Let's pray for their protection, for an end to abortion and for greater respect for the dignity of human life. Here are the prayers for today:
*Day 4 - The St. Philomena Novena *
Dearest St. Philomena, your prayers are powerful because you are so close to Our Lord. Your child-like faith and devotion are an inspiration to all of the faithful. Many miracles have occurred as a result of your intercession. In your closeness to Our Lord, please lift up these my intentions in prayer…

(state your intentions)

St. Philomena, at such a young age, you gave everything to Jesus to become a consecrated virgin for the Kingdom. Giving even more, you gave your life as you suffered a martyr’s death to preserve your gift to our Lord. Pray for me, that I might have the same faith and willingness to accept God’s will no matter the cost.

Amen.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Testimony: the emergency "flying novena" of Memorares came through again.  Thank you Jesus and thanks to Our Lady for her intercession!


----------



## Lucia

Peace be with you!

Today, let's pray for all children -- that they may grow up with great faith and great love. Let's pray for them to never doubt God's love and mercy for them. And finally, let's pray for all children who have fallen away from the faith -- that God may bring about a conversion in their heart. Here are the prayers for today:
*Day 5 - The St. Philomena Novena *
Dearest St. Philomena, your prayers are powerful because you are so close to Our Lord. Your child-like faith and devotion are an inspiration to all of the faithful. Many miracles have occurred as a result of your intercession. In your closeness to Our Lord, please lift up these my intentions in prayer…

(state your intentions)

St. Philomena, at such a young age, you gave everything to Jesus to become a consecrated virgin for the Kingdom. Giving even more, you gave your life as you suffered a martyr’s death to preserve your gift to our Lord. Pray for me, that I might have the same faith and willingness to accept God’s will no matter the cost.

Amen.


----------



## Lucia

Belle Du Jour said:


> Testimony: the emergency "flying novena" of Memorares came through again.  Thank you Jesus and thanks to Our Lady for her intercession!



Amen! 
Please post it. Thanks


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## Lucia

Bumping for any brave ones.


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## Belle Du Jour

Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help or sought thy intercession was left unaided. Inspired by this confidence, I fly unto thee, O Virgin of virgins, my Mother. To thee do I come, before thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer me. Amen.  (Repeat 9 times in a row instead of over 9 days)

http://catholicfoodie.com/mother-teresa-of-calcutta-and-the-express-novena


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## Lucia

Rosary in traditional Latin gregorien chant


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## kanozas

Thank you, ladies, for these continued novenas.  I hadn't realized we were going to continue them.  Coming at the right time.  @Lucia  your prayers are so meaningful.  Thank you for the accelerated novena of the Memorarae....I had totally forgotten it @belle du_Jour .  And thank you @Galadriel for the prayer of Therese de Lisieux!!!


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## Galadriel

I think I was crazy enough to do one of these threads in the OT forum a few years ago


----------



## Lucia

Galadriel said:


> I think I was crazy enough to do one of these threads in the OT forum a few years ago


  I know they will come.


----------



## Lucia

Oprah and new age movement


----------



## Galadriel

I know one of you ladies provided the info a long time ago, but I'm looking for online stores/vendors/people who sell mantillas (veils) for going to traditional Latin Mass


----------



## Lucia

https://www.catholiccompany.com/cha...=b&network=g&gclid=CKz0zsqsl8cCFdgPgQodu70BDg


https://www.etsy.com/search?q=mantillas+mass+&order=most_relevant&view_type=gallery&ship_to=US



http://www.veilsbylily.com

https://www.etsy.com/listing/206570...id=206570780&gclid=CO7Zmpysl8cCFRQdgQodVlYJbA



http://www.adoremusbooks.com/whitel...8&zmap=76346&gclid=COuL0OCrl8cCFVcvgQodyBkGXg


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## kanozas

Been slipping up on dates...but here's a novena to St. Edith Stein (Saint Theresa Benedicta of the Cross):

http://www.hebrewcatholic.net/prayer/st-edith-stein-novena/  (9 days under this link)



*Novena – Preface*


_*Novena to Saint Teresa Benedicta of the Cross (Edith Stein)*_

_*August 1 – August 9
Preface*_

The novena was composed by Elias Friedman, O.C.D., founder of the Association of Hebrew Catholics (AHC), who recommends it to all devotees of Saint Edith. The most suitable time to observe it would be from August 1 to August 9, in annual remembrance of the days spent by our saintly martyr in the death train, accompanied by her sister, Rosa, and many other Hebrew Catholics, on the way to the gas chambers of Auschwitz-Birkenau.

We present the Novena to the public, hoping thus to further devotion to our holy Carmelite and as a model for Hebrew Catholic’s to imitate. Edith Stein offered herself, like Jesus, our Lord and Messiah, as a victim of expiation for the redemption of her people and of mankind.

May our efforts hasten the day when all Israel shall proclaim:

_*Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord*_

_*(Baruch haba beShem Adonai)*_


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## Lucia

Peace be with you!

St. Philomena's tomb indicated that she was likely a martyr. 

Today let's pray for the persecuted Church and all of those who are being martyred for their faith. Here are the prayers for today:
*Day 6 - The St. Philomena Novena *
Dearest St. Philomena, your prayers are powerful because you are so close to Our Lord. Your child-like faith and devotion are an inspiration to all of the faithful. Many miracles have occurred as a result of your intercession. In your closeness to Our Lord, please lift up these my intentions in prayer…

(state your intentions)

St. Philomena, at such a young age, you gave everything to Jesus to become a consecrated virgin for the Kingdom. Giving even more, you gave your life as you suffered a martyr’s death to preserve your gift to our Lord. Pray for me, that I might have the same faith and willingness to accept God’s will no matter the cost.

Amen.


----------



## Galadriel

Thanks!


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## Lucia

Peace be with you!

St. Philomena's tomb also indicated that she was likely a virgin.

So today, let's pray for purity and chastity, and greater strength to practice both -- so that we may all grow in perfect love with God.  Here are the prayers for today:
*Day 7 - The St. Philomena Novena *
Dearest St. Philomena, your prayers are powerful because you are so close to Our Lord. Your child-like faith and devotion are an inspiration to all of the faithful. Many miracles have occurred as a result of your intercession. In your closeness to Our Lord, please lift up these my intentions in prayer…

(state your intentions)

St. Philomena, at such a young age, you gave everything to Jesus to become a consecrated virgin for the Kingdom. Giving even more, you gave your life as you suffered a martyr’s death to preserve your gift to our Lord. Pray for me, that I might have the same faith and willingness to accept God’s will no matter the cost.

Amen.


----------



## Lucia

Peace be with you!

Let's pray today for the conversion of sinners, starting with us. Here are the prayers for today:
*Day 8 - The St. Philomena Novena *
Dearest St. Philomena, your prayers are powerful because you are so close to Our Lord. Your child-like faith and devotion are an inspiration to all of the faithful. Many miracles have occurred as a result of your intercession. In your closeness to Our Lord, please lift up these my intentions in prayer…

(state your intentions)

St. Philomena, at such a young age, you gave everything to Jesus to become a consecrated virgin for the Kingdom. Giving even more, you gave your life as you suffered a martyr’s death to preserve your gift to our Lord. Pray for me, that I might have the same faith and willingness to accept God’s will no matter the cost.

Amen.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

kanozas said:


> Been slipping up on dates...but here's a novena to St. Edith Stein (Saint Theresa Benedicta of the Cross):
> 
> http://www.hebrewcatholic.net/prayer/st-edith-stein-novena/  (9 days under this link)
> 
> 
> 
> *Novena – Preface*
> 
> 
> _*Novena to Saint Teresa Benedicta of the Cross (Edith Stein)*_
> 
> _*August 1 – August 9
> Preface*_
> 
> The novena was composed by Elias Friedman, O.C.D., founder of the Association of Hebrew Catholics (AHC), who recommends it to all devotees of Saint Edith. The most suitable time to observe it would be from August 1 to August 9, in annual remembrance of the days spent by our saintly martyr in the death train, accompanied by her sister, Rosa, and many other Hebrew Catholics, on the way to the gas chambers of Auschwitz-Birkenau.
> 
> We present the Novena to the public, hoping thus to further devotion to our holy Carmelite and as a model for Hebrew Catholic’s to imitate. Edith Stein offered herself, like Jesus, our Lord and Messiah, as a victim of expiation for the redemption of her people and of mankind.
> 
> May our efforts hasten the day when all Israel shall proclaim:
> 
> _*Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord*_
> 
> _*(Baruch haba beShem Adonai)*_



I really like this saint


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## Belle Du Jour

Our Lady, Undoer of Knots, pray for us.


----------



## Lucia

*Courtship in the Age of the Pill *

GEORGE SIM JOHNSTON


Turning around the institution of marriage will have to involve the restoration of courtship, albeit not as it was sixty years ago.






There is much discussion these days about the crisis of marriage.  Divorce rates are high, too many children live in single-parent homes, people often end up isolated and lonely in middle age.  But there is little discussion about courtship.  How does one enter marriage? How should a 25 year-old negotiate what is still quaintly called the dating scene?

According to philosopher Leon R. Kass, the reason there is so little discussion about courtship is that "the very terms — 'wooing,' 'courting,' 'suitors' — are archaic; and if the words barely exist, it is because the phenomena have all but disappeared. Today, there are no socially prescribed forms of conduct that help guide young men and women in the direction of matrimony. . .for the great majority, the way to the altar is uncharted territory: It's every couple on their own, without a compass, often without a goal."


This virtual absence of guidelines for courtship is unprecedented.  Until recently, society had clear norms governing the "dance" between a man and woman prior to marriage.  There are reasons why this is no longer the case, aside from a few exceptions.

First, we live in what Barbara Dafoe Whitehead calls a Divorce Culture.  Many young adults have parents who are divorced and so lack both counsel and a compelling model for matrimony.  The painful endings of their parents' marriages make them wary of commitment.

Second, there has been a dramatic shift in priorities regarding work and family.  People now want financial independence before they think about marriage, whereas their parents (and certainly grandparents) often married before their financial situation was clear.  Fifty years ago, young couples expected to scrape by during the early years of marriage, and this often strengthened the relationship.

"If you wait until your 30's," writes Charles Murray, "your marriage is likely to be a merger.  If you get married in your 20's, it is likely to be a start-up. . . .What are the advantages of a start-up marriage? For one thing, you will both have memories of your life together when it was all still up in the air. . . .Even more important, you and your spouse will have made your way together. . . .And each of you will know that you wouldn't have become the person you are without the other."

Third, many bachelors are inclined to live out what Kay Hymowitz calls a "postmodern post-adolescence." This state of emotional suspension has been portrayed in sitcoms like "Seinfeld." Young men (and not a few female peers) see no compelling reason to move on to full adulthood; they may not even be sure what the word means.

For men, the delay of adult responsibility is partly explained by the availability of sex with no strings attached. "If the culture offers sexual access and does not require in exchange personal commitment," writes James Q. Wilson, "a lot of men will take the sex every time."

Sex, once reserved for marriage, is now almost an automatic part of dating. This has not clarified thinking or enriched emotions. Casual sex has created a climate of cynicism among young people, who get into the habit of treating members of the opposite sex as a means to an end. To make sex a casual activity is to shrink the meaning of courtship — and therefore of marriage itself.

Modernity puts great emphasis on freedom, but has little to say about how to use that freedom. A case in point is the sexual revolution, which has had a devastating impact on courtship and marriage. As a general matter, it is difficult, at this late date, to claim that the sexual revolution has made people happier. It might be easier to make the opposite case. Consider, for example, the out-of-wedlock birthrate, now over 40 percent in America and the U. K., or the epidemic of STD's.

The sexual revolution was launched by the introduction of the contraceptive pill for women. The Pill was meant to "liberate" women. But it had a number of unforeseen consequences — unforeseen, at any rate, by those who were most vigorous in promoting it.

Modernity puts great emphasis on freedom, but has little to say about how to use that freedom.

The Pill gave men a permission slip to have sex with no responsibility; they could demand it with no concern for the consequences. It became easier for men to treat women as vehicles for pleasure. (Some women responded in kind.) This commodification of physical pleasure evacuated the sexual act of its nuptial meaning. It made men and women look at each other in ways that have little to do with the covenant of permanent self-giving that is marriage.

The Pill also helped create a "hook-up culture" which — as even feminist writers with a liberationist bent like Donna Freitas admit — has caused much pain and frustration, especially among women. It's not hard to see that sexual promiscuity both on campus and afterward has resulted in a lot of men and women entering marriage with a jaded, consumerist attitude toward sex.

The Pill also helped to create a culture of cohabitation prior to marriage.  In 1960, the year the Pill was introduced, virtually no couples lived together before marriage.  Now 60 percent do.  And it turns out that cohabitation is not a helpful entry into marriage.  For one thing, it teaches couples low-intensity commitment: separate names and bank accounts, an agreement that "we can split anytime." Many couples discover too late that cohabitation and marriage are not the same thing at all.

Turning around the institution of marriage will have to involve the restoration of courtship, albeit not as it was sixty years ago.  A 23 year-old graduate student recently told me that the scenario now is to shack up with a guy who may or may not turn out to be your husband and not think about marriage until about age thirty.  Her generation needs to hear why this often is a formula for being miserable by the time they turn fifty.

http://www.catholiceducation.org/en...-topics/courtship-in-the-age-of-the-pill.html


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## Galadriel

Very interesting and insightful article! I would also add that waiting so long for marriage (in conjunction with having injected one's body with synthetic hormones for so many years via BC) may also lead to run-ins with fertility issues when the couple does marry and try to conceive.


----------



## Lucia

Last Day 

Peace be with you!

We're almost done! We have one last prayer to pray together tomorrow.

Today, let's pray that we will use whatever gifts God has given each of us to proclaim His goodness, His mercy and love. Let's pray that we may all become evangelists through our words and our actions. 

And as we wrap up this novena, if you have any answered prayers, you can share those with all of us here: 

http://www.praymorenovenas.com/blog/answered-prayers-from-the-st-philomena-novena-2015/#respondHere are the prayers for today:
*Day 9 - The St. Philomena Novena *
Dearest St. Philomena, your prayers are powerful because you are so close to Our Lord. Your child-like faith and devotion are an inspiration to all of the faithful. Many miracles have occurred as a result of your intercession. In your closeness to Our Lord, please lift up these my intentions in prayer…

(state your intentions)

St. Philomena, at such a young age, you gave everything to Jesus to become a consecrated virgin for the Kingdom. Giving even more, you gave your life as you suffered a martyr’s death to preserve your gift to our Lord. Pray for me, that I might have the same faith and willingness to accept God’s will no matter the cost.

Amen.


----------



## Lucia

Galadriel said:


> Very interesting and insightful article! I would also add that waiting so long for marriage (in conjunction with having injected one's body with synthetic hormones for so many years via BC) may also lead to run-ins with fertility issues when the couple does marry and try to conceive.



@Galadriel

Oh you're absolutely right on that
There's a documentary out called the Immortalists and they touch on that but some in the doc ate also old hippie science types that believe that they can outsmart death.
I warn you it gets graphic at one point  I stopped when the old hippies started to get naked in the park   I clicked that off button so fast.


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## Lucia

Peace be with you!

Happy Feast of St. Philomena! 
Thank you for joining us in prayer. We hope this novena has helped you grow in your faith -- as St. Philomena is a great example of having great faith, even in dire times. 

Now, we would like to close this novena with our final prayer. 

*Let us pray...*

Dear Lord Jesus, I have specific requests that may only partially fill the infinite needs and desires that are in my heart. I ask that You answer me not only for those requests but also for a greater reliance on You to satisfy the needs and desires that You have given me. 

Please grant the prayers of all those who prayed this novena with me. Bless them with Your love and make them holy!

May I seek You with a sincere heart knowing that it will profit me nothing if I gain the whole world yet lose my soul. 

So, help me to see Your good and gracious purpose in all my trials. Help me to see Your blessings in every day and help me to love You more. 

Thank You for everything, Lord Jesus! 

Amen.


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## Lucia

Peace be with you!

This is just a quick reminder that the St. Monica Novena starts on Tuesday - that's tomorrow! 

If you haven't yet, please share this novena with your friends and family who can use St. Monica's intercession.


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## Galadriel

Today is the feast day of Saint Pope Pius X.

Four years ago he interceded for me in a special way, and I will never forget. Thank God for giving us friends in His holy saints.


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## Galadriel

I've noticed at my parish that during the Gloria we now bow our heads slightly in reverence to the Name of Jesus Christ while singing the hymn. Does your parish do this, or is this just a particular thing?


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## Belle Du Jour

I got into the habit of doing this anytime Our Lord's name is said during mass. I've noticed older people tend to do it and I see it at  traditional/TLM parishes too


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## Belle Du Jour

Gestures/postures in Mass:
http://www.adoremus.org/0210MassGesturesPostures.html


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## kanozas

How often does your or the average family go to confession?


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## Galadriel

I go every 2-3 months, but I may make it more frequent now that my daughter has made her confession and done First Communion (so she can go with me). DH can go 5-6 months before making a confession. I know my in-laws go monthly.

ETA: I'm not sure how often the average family goes, but I'm guessing depending on whether they're a traditional parish, maybe every month or so, vs. those who aren't and maybe don't even attend weekly mass (maybe 1-2x per year, if that).


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## kanozas

Galadriel said:


> I go every 2-3 months, but I may make it more frequent now that my daughter has made her confession and done First Communion (so she can go with me). DH can go 5-6 months before making a confession. I know my in-laws go monthly.
> 
> ETA: I'm not sure how often the average family goes, but I'm guessing depending on whether they're a traditional parish, maybe every month or so, vs. those who aren't and maybe don't even attend weekly mass (maybe 1-2x per year, if that).




I personally go every few weeks but was thinking about the whole family going monthly or every two.  I don't want it to be excessive.


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## Galadriel

kanozas said:


> I personally go every few weeks but was thinking about the whole family going monthly or every two.  I don't want it to be excessive.



I think monthly or every two months is good.


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## kanozas

Galadriel said:


> I think monthly or every two months is good.




Then I could just go myself if I wanted to.  You have to strike such a good balance with kids in this world today.  We're truly under attack.


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## Divine.

I'm not Catholic but I have a question.  Is purgatory a place available to Protestants who do not know about it?


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## kanozas

Purgatory is the place where all souls that are saved go but have to go through final purification.   There are sins that remove salvific grace and break your relationship with G-d totally and if you died in them, you would go to hell.  Purgatory is for the saved and that would include all people in the world.  I'll leave you a link to read up on it.  Good question!

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm


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## Galadriel

@Divine. yes, it is available and it's your final purification by Christ before entering Heaven.


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## Divine.

Thank you for answering! I understand there are some basic similarities between Catholicism and Protestantism, but there are also some major differences. 

@kanozas or @Galadriel I tried reading through that article, but it literally went over my head  What type of sin would keep you from entering heaven?


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## kanozas

Divine. said:


> Thank you for answering! I understand there are some basic similarities between Catholicism and Protestantism, but there are also some major differences.
> 
> @kanozas or @Galadriel I tried reading through that article, but it literally went over my head  What type of sin would keep you from entering heaven?




Take it slowly, re-read it, a little at a time.  Sins that remove grace totally are final unrepentance (rejecting G-d finally), unconfessed murder, unconfessed fornication, ...many.  But venial sins are "little" sins like a white lie.  Mortal implies something very grave and serious and full volition/will to violate the prohibition of it.  Maybe this article is a little easier to get through:

https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/mortal_versus_venial.htm

I hope others chime in as well.


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## Galadriel

Divine. said:


> Thank you for answering! I understand there are some basic similarities between Catholicism and Protestantism, but there are also some major differences.
> 
> @kanozas or @Galadriel I tried reading through that article, but it literally went over my head  What type of sin would keep you from entering heaven?



Only unrepented mortal sin.


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## Lucia

kanozas said:


> How often does your or the average family go to confession?



I try to go every 2-3 months 
But more often if there's a special mass like Christmas or Easter or if I'm standing up in a wedding I go again.


----------



## Lucia

Divine. said:


> I'm not Catholic but I have a question.  Is purgatory a place available to Protestants who do not know about it?



@Divine.

BTW really good question

According to the catechism

*843* The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”…

*1260* “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.


http://forum.chnetwork.org/index.php?topic=11537.0





Divine. said:


> Thank you for answering! I understand there are some basic similarities between Catholicism and Protestantism, but there are also some major differences.
> 
> @kanozas or @Galadriel I tried reading through that article, but it literally went over my head  What type of sin would keep you from entering heaven?



An example would be premeditated murder with the full knowledge that it is a mortal sin and is morally wrong and goes against G-d and the person still carries it out.
Now the perpetrator can confess and truly repent and come to G-d, prayer *acts of contrition, faith and works. (Which is what we Catholics believe saving grace, confession, repentance, faith and works but Protestants beleive in prayer, saving grace, faith alone and sola scriptura =word alone) 
*
There are more  differences but those are some big ones. 

James 2:14-26

_14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does itprofit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
_




http://www.saintaquinas.com/mortal_sin.html


Mortal sins must be specifically confessed and named along with how often they were done.[12] It is not necessary to confess venial sins although they may be confessed. Venial sins are all sins that are not mortal. The Church encourages frequent use of the sacrament of confession even if a person has only venial sins.

Some acts cause automatic excommunication by the very deed itself e.g. renunciation of faith and religion, known as apostasy,[13] a person who desecrates the Eucharist[14]and "a person who procures a completed abortion".[15] Those mortal sins are so serious that the Church through law has made them crimes, like abortion or heresy, to make their gravity realized. The Church excommunicates also so sinners come to repentance quickly when they would not otherwise. Because commission of these offenses is so serious, the Church forbids the excommunicated from receiving any sacrament (not just the Eucharist) and also severely restricts the person's participation in other Church liturgical acts and offices. A repentant excommunicated person may talk to a priest, usually in a confessional, about their excommunication to arrange for the remission. Remission cannot be denied to someone who has truly repented their actions and has also made suitable reparation for damages and scandal or at least has seriously promised according to church law.[16][17]However, even if excommunicated, a Catholic who has not been juridically absolved is still, due to the irrevocable nature of baptism, a member of the Church in the sense that they are still considered members of the Catholic Church, albeit their communion with the Christ and the Church is gravely impaired. "Perpetual penalties cannot be imposed or declared by decree...."[18] However, "the following are expiatory penalties which can affect an offender either perpetually...."[19]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_sin


----------



## Lucia

Belle Du Jour said:


> I got into the habit of doing this anytime Our Lord's name is said during mass. I've noticed older people tend to do it and I see it at  traditional/TLM parishes too




We also* bow or just bow our heads* (actually the deacons bow) when saying the credo part where it says he came down from Heaven and by the Holy Spirit was *incarnate* from the Virgin Mary and became man ...


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## Divine.

@Lucia it's interesting you brought up that scripture in James. As I was studying that chapter one day, God quickly showed me that saying I have faith in Him is not enough. I need to show it through my actions. I define works a little differently (not just good deeds, but being intentional about living righteously) but the point is all Christians are supposed to do more than just sit around and expect God's grace. He didn't create us to be idle!

Anyways I just wanted to say that


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## kanozas

Lucia said:


> We also* bow or just bow our heads* (actually the deacons bow) when saying the credo part where it says he came down from Heaven and by the Holy Spirit was *incarnate* from the Virgin Mary and became man ...




We're all asked to bow during that portion over here.  One parish uses projector and it's indicated right before.  I also wonder why we do it. at the mention of the incarnation.


----------



## Lucia

Divine. said:


> @Lucia it's interesting you brought up that scripture in James. As I was studying that chapter one day, God quickly showed me that saying I have faith in Him is not enough. I need to show it through my actions. I define works a little differently (not just good deeds, but being intentional about living righteously) but the point is all Christians are supposed to do more than just sit around and expect God's grace. He didn't create us to be idle!
> 
> Anyways I just wanted to say that



ITA


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## kanozas

You know, we're not all the same but there has to be something done about this anti-catholic attack in the christian forum.  It's enough!


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## Galadriel

kanozas said:


> You know, we're not all the same but there has to be something done about this anti-catholic attack in the christian forum.  It's enough!



Agreed! We Christians are already having to battle the onslaught of evil the world sends our way--meaningless bickering and attacks do nothing to help us.


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## kanozas

I remember a priest from Trinidad that was stationed in St. Lucia but traveling all over.  He came to our parish to ask for support for their missions and he talked about the incident where some men hacked some nuns and congregants to death inside a catholic church there.  I never forgot it.  Our own from my former parish in my former state said something similar before the incident abo0ut there coming a time when we might lose our lives over our faith.  It's scary.


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## Belle Du Jour

“As to the past, let us entrust it to God’s mercy, the future to divine providence.  Our task is to live holy the present moment.” St. Gianna

I love this saint! I'm going to start a novena to her today 

http://saintgianna.org/novena.htm


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## kanozas

Makes sense!  http://secondexodus.com/


"God would never come to his people through two separate religions that disagree on the most crucial point of all. There is only one continuing revelation § 839, called Jewish when it was the religion of the Judean people, and Catholic when it was opened to all the world."

Read the whole website, it's wonderful.


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## Rsgal

ANIMA CHRISTI (SOUL OF CHRIST) --  This prayer gives me so much peace.

Soul of Christ, sanctify me.
Body of Christ, save me.
Blood of Christ, inebriate me.
Water from the side of Christ, wash me.
Passion of Christ, strengthen me.
O good Jesus, hear me.
Within your wounds, hide me.
Separated from you let me never be.
From the malignant enemy, defend me.
At the hour of death, call me.
To come to you, bid me,
That I may praise you in the company
Of your Saints, for all eternity.

Amen.


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## Lucia

Ladies you can send prayers to Mary Undoer of knots into this website watch this video
In honor of the Popes visit, hope he will stay long enough to pray as well, people will pray over the requests or knots and then release them.  What a great idea.

Website to submit knot
http://mercyandjustice.org


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## Lucia

Ladies you can send prayers to Mary Undoer of knots into this website watch this video
In honor of the Popes visit people will pray over the requests or knots and then release them.  What a great idea. 

Website to submit knot 
http://mercyandjustice.org


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## Lucia

Ladies you can send prayers to Mary Undoer of knots into this website watch this video
In honor of the Popes visit people will pray over the requests or knots and then release them.  What a great idea. 

Website to submit knot 
http://mercyandjustice.org


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## Lucia




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## Belle Du Jour

Belle Du Jour said:


> Our Lady, Undoer of Knots, pray for us.



I'm feeling led to pray this novena about a very specific situation. Even if you can't join me, please pray for me.


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## kanozas

Want to place this here for anyone interested or having questions.  The names are hyperlinked to heir biographical information:

List of Popes
(at some point, it diverges from rite such as Orthodox, Coptic, etc.)

http://oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=List_of_Popes


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## kanozas

List of Coptic Orthodox Popes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Coptic_Orthodox_Popes_of_Alexandria


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## Lucia

Belle Du Jour said:


> Our Lady, Undoer of Knots, pray for us.



This is the painting the Pope has on his wall in his office in the Vatican beautiful depiction of Our Lady


----------



## Lucia

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news...Philadelphia-WMOF-Pope-Francis-328832771.html


----------



## Lucia

Still praying Mary under of knots novena 



https://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/prayers/chaplet-of-st-michael.htm


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## Lucia




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## Lucia




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## Belle Du Jour

Lucia said:


> Ladies you can send prayers to Mary Undoer of knots into this website watch this video
> In honor of the Popes visit people will pray over the requests or knots and then release them.  What a great idea.
> 
> Website to submit knot
> http://mercyandjustice.org



I submitted a knot!  Thank you for sharing


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## Lucia

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1493157671/ref=pd_aw_sim_14_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=0FX73PH7N11SE9TS0T8G


----------



## Lucia

81 days prayers St Michael intercession

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1493157671/ref=pd_aw_sim_14_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=0FX73PH7N11SE9TS0T8G


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Lucia said:


> http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1493157671/ref=pd_aw_sim_14_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=0FX73PH7N11SE9TS0T8G



Interesting.  Where did you hear of this book? 
BTW, there are 88 days until 2016.  I will do this with you if you want.  I think we have a similar intention


----------



## Lucia

Belle Du Jour said:


> Interesting.  Where did you hear of this book?
> BTW, there are 88 days until 2016.  I will do this with you if you want.  I think we have a similar intention




A friend sent it to me. Sure I've already done a round and was going to repeat it would be good to have a prayer buddy.  I'm in want to start today?


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## Lucia

Catholic and Protestant Bibles 

Complete article 

http://www.cathtruth.com/catholicbible/cathprot.htm


Excerpt of books removed from the Bible by Martin Luther. 

Hebrew Bible contained only the Old Testament and from its Old Testament it excluded seven entire books - namely, Tobias, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, First and Second Machabees - and parts of Esther (10:14 to 16:14) and Daniel (3:24- 90; 13; 14).


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Lucia said:


> A friend sent it to me. Sure I've already done a round and was going to repeat it would be good to have a prayer buddy.  I'm in want to start today?



Sorry just seeing this.  I'll purchase the kindle version tonight.  Can we start tomorrow?  We can check in weekly or every 2 weeks?


----------



## Lucia

Belle Du Jour said:


> Sorry just seeing this.  I'll purchase the kindle version tonight.  Can we start tomorrow?  We can check in weekly or every 2 weeks?



Sure no prob


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## Lucia




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## Lucia

https://youtu.be/5XszDfnBVlU


----------



## Lucia




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## Lucia

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6humana.htm


----------



## kanozas

@Lucia   Fr. Goring is a catholic priest? Catholic charismatic center?  It looks like an evangelical church.  We have a charismatic mass once yearly or so but I missed it last year.  Is this your parish?  Or is the charismatic center a parish???


----------



## Lucia

kanozas said:


> @Lucia   Fr. Goring is a catholic priest? Catholic charismatic center?  It looks like an evangelical church.  We have a charismatic mass once yearly or so but I missed it last year.  Is this your parish?  Or is the charismatic center a parish???



Yes he's a Preist Catholic and PROUD!   he goes off on one of the videos I linked it I think. 

It's a charismatic center parish. I go to a regular novus ordum parish.
I did go to a catholic charismatic event though at another church they also have that every year it was a really good service. 
Info on him 
http://www.companionscross.org/priests/fr-mark-goring


----------



## Lucia




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## Lucia

Fr Ripperger
He's an exorcist and has tons of knowledge.  Please say a decade for him and all these Christian warriors and teachers evangelist.


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## Lucia




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## Lucia




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## Lucia




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## Lucia




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## kanozas

If a double-post, please excuse:

http://www.thedivinemercy.org/message/devotions/praythechaplet.php


----------



## Lucia

@Belle Du Jour
Hi
Checking in Ive fallen behind a couple days on the 81 day novena but I'm catching up 2 a day this week.

Pic of book it was hard to find in person online link above for anyone looking


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## Belle Du Jour

Girl I fell way behind too lol...


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## kanozas

81-day novena?  Which one is that?



---------------------
I love the way the rosary prayers are explained.

http://www.rosary-center.org/luminous.htm

THE BAPTISM OF THE LORD


John is baptizing in the Jordan proclaiming a baptism of repentance.
"I am the voice of one crying in the desert, make straight the way of the Lord."
"One mightier than I is coming after me."
"I have baptized you with water, He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."
Seeing Jesus, John exclaims: "Behold the Lamb of God."
Against protests of his unworthiness, John baptizes Jesus in the Jordan.
After Jesus' baptism a voice from Heaven: "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased."
The Spirit descends upon Jesus in the form of a dove.
*In this heavenly manifestation is instituted the sacrament of baptism. *
*The divine Trinity is manifested: the voice of the Father is heard as the Spirit descends upon the Son. *
Spiritual Fruit: *Gratitude for the gift of Faith*


----------



## Lucia

Our lady of Sorrows

http://www.companionscross.org/site...y of the Seven Sorrows of Our lady_edited.pdf


----------



## Lucia

@kanozas
This "novena" if you fall off just start back up where you left off.
It's worked wonders. There's also some powerful prayers in the back the St Michael rosary as well.

Here's the link there's a book and a kindle version

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00I7LPELO/ref=tmm_kin_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=&sr=


----------



## Belle Du Jour

kanozas said:


> 81-day novena?  Which one is that?
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------
> I love the way the rosary prayers are explained.
> 
> http://www.rosary-center.org/luminous.htm
> 
> THE BAPTISM OF THE LORD
> 
> 
> John is baptizing in the Jordan proclaiming a baptism of repentance.
> "I am the voice of one crying in the desert, make straight the way of the Lord."
> "One mightier than I is coming after me."
> "I have baptized you with water, He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."
> Seeing Jesus, John exclaims: "Behold the Lamb of God."
> Against protests of his unworthiness, John baptizes Jesus in the Jordan.
> After Jesus' baptism a voice from Heaven: "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased."
> The Spirit descends upon Jesus in the form of a dove.
> *In this heavenly manifestation is instituted the sacrament of baptism. *
> *The divine Trinity is manifested: the voice of the Father is heard as the Spirit descends upon the Son. *
> Spiritual Fruit: *Gratitude for the gift of Faith*



Thank you for this link! Will help my mind to not wonder.


----------



## Lucia

Crowned with Stars 
English translation 



We salute you ,
O thou our Lady
Mary, Blessed Virgin that drapes the sun
Crowned with stars , the moon is beneath your feet
In you we are given
The aurora of the salute 

1 - Marie new Eve and joy of your Lord,
You gave birth to Jesus the Savior ,
As you open the doors to the garden,
Show us the way, the Morning Star .
2 - You stayed loyal, mother at the foot of the cross,
Supports our hope and keep our faith,
On the side of your Son , you have drawn for us
Water and blood made that save from sin.
3 - What joy was Eve's when you went up
Higher than all the Angels , higher than the clouds ,
And what is our joy, sweet Virgin Mary ,
To behold in you the promise of life .
4 - O Immaculate Virgin ; preserved from sin,
In your soul, in your body, you enter heaven ,
Caught in glory, Holy Queen of Heaven ,
You will take us up one day with God.


----------



## Lucia

Good app 
Trying it out now free download some in app purchases but most stuff is free comes with a digital St Ignatius bible and the study bible version you can choose which is free as well. It has bible scripture readings that coincide with the daily and Sunday masses, audio interviews lectures etc...


Catholic Study Bible App Ignatius-Lighthouse Edition by Ignatius + Lighthouse Partnership
https://appsto.re/us/V_TKH.i


----------



## Lucia




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## Lucia




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## Lucia




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## Lucia




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## Lucia

Repost the second video didn't show up


----------



## Lucia

A G-d centered retreat a lot of people send their troubled young adults family members there emotional problems, coping,  drugs etc...,

Communita Cenacolo

http://www.comunitacenacolo.org


----------



## Lucia

Steubenville conferences

http://www.steubenville.org


----------



## Lucia




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## Lucia

Talk about Jesus and the importance of the Eucharist


----------



## Lucia

Source http://bound4life.com/history-of-contraception-in-the-protestant-church/
--------

*How Protestants Learned to Love the Pill*
_by Allan Carlson_

The Protestant Reformation was in significant part a protest against the perceived antinatalism of the late Medieval Christian Church. It was a celebration of procreation that also saw contraception and abortion as among the most wicked of human sins, as direct affronts to the ordinances of God. This background makes the Protestant “sellout” on contraception in the mid 20th Century all the more surprising, and disturbing.






As the Augustinian monk, theologian, and “first Protestant” Martin Luther viewed his world in the second decade of the 16th Century, he saw a Christianity in conflict with family life and fertility. Church tradition held that the taking of vows of chastity—as a priest, monk, or cloistered sister—was spiritually superior to the wedded life. In consequence, about one-third of adult European Christians were in Holy Orders.

Tied to this, Luther said, was widespread misogyny, or a hatred of women, as reflected in a saying attributed to St. Jerome: “If you find things going too well, take a wife.” Most certainly, the late Medieval Church saw marriage and children as “hindrances” to spiritual work. At the same time, Luther argued that spiritual discipline had broken down, with vows of chastity frequently not observed. His voice joined lay complaints about certain bishops who kept concubines, monks who caroused in the taverns, and priests who preyed sexually on their parishioners, without serious rebuke.

*“Be fruitful and multiply”*
In constructing his evangelical family ethic, Luther placed emphasis on Genesis 1:28: “Be fruitful and multiply.” This was more than a command; he called it “a divine ordinance [werck] which it is not our prerogative to hinder or ignore.” Indeed, Luther saw procreation as the very essence of the human life in Eden before the Fall. As he explained in his Lectures on Genesis: “truly in all nature there was no activity more excellent and more admirable than procreation. After the proclamation of the name of God it is the most important activity Adam and Eve in the state of innocence could carry on—as free from sin in doing this as they were in praising God.” The Fall brought sin into this pure, exuberant fertility. Even so, Luther praised each conception of a new child as an act of “wonderment…wholly beyond our understanding,” a miracle bearing the “lovely music of nature,” a faint reminder of life before the Fall:

This living-together of husband and wife—that they occupy the same home, that they take care of the household, that together they produce and bring up children—is a kind of faint image and a remnant, as it were, of that blessed living together [in Eden].

And so, Luther elevated marriage to “the highest religious order on earth,” concluding that “we may be assured that man and woman should and must come together in order to multiply.” He stressed that it was “not a matter of free choice…but a natural and necessary thing, that whatever is a man must have a woman and whatever is a woman must have a man.” He urged that the convents be emptied, emphasizing that “a woman is not created to be a virgin, but to conceive and bear children.” Indeed, Luther’s marital pronatalism had no restraints: wives ought to be continually pregnant, he said, because “this is the purpose for which they exist.”

Just as important, he called men home to serve as “housefathers” dedicated to the rearing of Christian children. In a wonderful passage, Luther describes the father who confesses to God “that I am not worthy to rock the little babe or wash its diapers, or to be entrusted with the care of the child and its mother.” Luther then assures him that “when a father goes ahead and washes diapers or performs some other mean task for his child…God, with all his angels and creatures, is smiling…because [the father] is doing so in Christian faith.”

*The wickedness of contraception*
Luther knew that the contraceptive mentality was alive and well in his own time. He noted that this “inhuman attitude, which is worse than barbarous,” was found chiefly among the well born, “the nobility and princes.” Elsewhere, he linked contraception to selfishness:

How great, therefore, the wickedness of [fallen] human nature is! How many girls there are who prevent conception and kill and expel tender fetuses, although procreation is the work of God! Indeed, some spouses who marry and live together…have various ends in mind, but rarely children.

In short, Luther’s fierce rejection of contraception and abortion lay at the very heart of his reforming zeal and his evangelical theology. His own marriage to Katherine von Bora and their brood of children set a model for the Protestant Christian home, one that would stand for nearly four hundred years.

And yet, by the 1960′s and 1970′s, virtually all Protestant churches—in America as in Europe—embraced contraception and (somewhat less frequently) abortion as compatible with Christian ethics. Pope Paul VI’s courageous opposition to these acts in the 1968 encyclical, _Humanae Vitae_, won broad condemnation from Protestant leaders as an attempt to impose “Catholic views” on the world. Even leaders of “conservative” denominations such as the Southern Baptist Convention would welcome as “a blow for Christian liberty” the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision of the U.S. Supreme Court that legalized abortion as a free choice during the first six months (and in practice for all nine months) of a pregnancy. Not a single significant Protestant voice raised opposition in the 1960′s and early 1970′s to the massive entry of the U.S. government into the promotion and distribution of contraceptives, nationally and worldwide.

*The great reversal—in England*
How had a central pillar of the evangelical Protestant ethic been reversed so completely?

Some recent historical investigations offer partial answers. For example, the first formal break came within the Anglican communion, or the Church of England, with the clergy themselves leading the way. In 1911, the neo-Malthusian advocates of population limitation celebrated the results of England’s new census, showing that Anglican clergymen had an average of only 2.3 children, well-below their 1874 figure of 5.2. The Malthusians saw this as clear evidence of deliberate family limitation.

The Census results also added fuel to the arguments of dissident clergymen that a solution to England’s poverty problems must include the birth of fewer children. These pressures culminated at the Anglican Church’s 1930 Lambeth Conference, where delegates heard an address by birth control advocate Helena Wrighton on the advantages of contraception for the poor. On a 193 to 67 vote, the Conference passed a resolution stating that “in those cases where there is such a clearly felt moral obligation to limit or avoid parenthood, and where there is a morally sound reason for avoiding complete abstinence, …other methods may be used, provided that this is done in the light of Christian principles.”

*In America*
There was an immediate American Protestant echo. In 1931, the Committee on Home and Marriage of the Federal Council of Churches (an ecumenical body that embraced Methodist, Presbyterian, Congregational, and Church of the Brethren denominations) issued a statement defending family limitation and urging the repeal of laws prohibiting contraceptive education and sales.

Even a church body committed to a defense of pure Lutheran orthodoxy—the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS)—stumbled on this question. As late as 1923, the Synod’s official publication, _The Witness_, accused the Birth Control Federation of America of spattering “this country with slime,” and labelled birth-control advocate Margaret Sanger a “she devil.” A popular 1932 volume on pastoral theology directly paraphrased Luther in stating that “women with many children are in middle age much more beautiful than those who have few children.”

Yet a countercurrent was gaining force, with LCMS clergy and theologians in the dubious lead. Similar to the Anglican experience, the average number of children found in clerical families fell from 6.5 in 1890 to 3.7 by 1920. The overall LCMS baptism rate declined from 58 baptisms per 1,000 members in 1885, to 37 in 1913, and 24 in 1932. In the late 1940′s, a leading LCMS professor of theology, Alfred Rehwinckel, said that Luther had simply been wrong: the Genesis phrase, “Be fruitful and multiply,” was merely a blessing, not a command. Rehwinckel went on to defend Margaret Sanger with a sympathetic history of family planning. By 1964, the Synod officially held that problems of poverty and overpopulation should help guide thinking about family size.

*The 1961 North American Conference on Church and Family*
Such views spread at a still more rapid pace among the Protestant “mainline” churches. Held near the end of the post World War II “baby boom,” when American family life for a brief period again seemed somewhat healthy, the 1961 North American Conference on Church and Family of the National Council of Churches (successor to the FCC) can only be called extraordinary. Setting a radical theme, keynote speaker J.C. Wynn of Colgate Divinity School dismissed existing Protestant books and pronouncements on the family and sexuality as “depressingly platitudinous” and “comfortably dull,” a regrettable “works righteousness.” A second keynoter praised this conference for its intended merger of Christianity with new insights from the sciences, “a mighty symbol of the readiness of the churches to ground their policy formation in objective, solid data.”

Other speakers formed a veritable “Who’s Who” of sexual radicalism. Lester Kirkendall said that America had “entered a sexual economy of abundance,” where contraception would allow unrestrained sexual experimentation without the burden of children. Wardell Pomeroy of the [Kinsey] Institute of Sex Research explained how the new science of sexology required the abandonment of all old moral categories. Psychologist Evelyn Hooker [sic] praised the healthily sterile lives of homosexuals. Planned Parenthood’s Mary Calderone made the case for universal contraceptive use, while colleague Alan Guttmacher urged the reform of America’s “mean spirited” anti-abortion laws.

Not a single speaker spoke in the spirit of the old Protestant pronatalist ethic. Indeed, this ethic now stood as the chief enemy. The conference endorsed development of a new evangelical sexual ethic, one “relevant to our culture,” sensitive to the overpopulation crisis, and grounded in modern science.

Member denominations soon complied. In a 1970 Report, the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) rejected the old “taboos and prohibitions” and gave its blessing to “mass contraceptive techniques,” homosexuality, and low-cost abortion on demand. The same year, the Lutheran Church in America fully embraced contraception and abortion as responsible choices. And in 1977, the United Church of Christ celebrated the terms “freedom,” “sensuousness,” and “androgyny,” and declared free access to contraception and abortion as matters of justice.

*The weakness of natural reason confronting the spirit of the age*
Yet these historical episodes still beg the question: why? The easiest answer might be to point to the multiple “revolutions” of the last two-hundred years—industrial, urban, scientific, and democratic—as creating an overwhelming pressure for accommodation and change, which no religious institution could stop.

And yet, the very existence of _Humanae Vitae_ gives a counter example of a religious body that has mounted a fierce opposition to the spirit of the age. There is no small irony in the fact that it would be the Roman Pontiff who would lead (often painfully alone) the opposition to contraception at the end of the 20th Century. Perhaps the Catholic hierarchical model, reserving final decision on matters of faith and morals to the successor of Peter, has proved more resilient than the Protestant reliance on individual conscience and democratic church governance?

Or perhaps Luther would simply acknowledge that his old enemy, “that clever harlot, Natural Reason,” had come back in new guise at the Second Millennium’s end. By natural reason, he meant the wisdom of the world, unformed and unregulated by Divine witness in Holy Scripture. As he “quoted” this beast back in 1522:

Alas, must I rock the baby, wash its diapers, make its bed, smell its stench, stay up nights with it, take care of it when it cries, heal its rashes and sores, and on top of that care for my wife, provide for her, labor at my trade, take care of this, and take care of that,…endure this and endure that…? What, should I make such a prisoner of myself?

In our time, these same sentiments might be found on the lips of “the Playboy philosopher,” the “female eunuch,” or the “sexologist” at an NCC Christian conference. Luther well understood the nature of human sin and the power of fallen “reason” to twist words and science to its ends. He would be disappointed by the near-collapse of his evangelical family and sexual ethic; but he probably would not be surprised.

*Resistance and change*
And yet there are alternate Protestant Christian models, even in our own troubled age. Scattered bands rooted in radical Anabaptism—including the Hutterites and the Amish—have kept “natural reason” and the modern world at bay by the cultivation and defense of separatist, rural identities. Ever open to the transmission of new life, their families are large and their marriages relatively strong. “Fundamentalist” Christians have also held more tightly to a positive view of fertility. A 1958 survey in the Southern Appalachians found that 81 percent of “fundamentalists” believed birth control to be “always” or “sometimes” wrong, compared to only 40 percent of “nonfundamentalists.” In 1980, the Southern Baptist Convention adopted a resolution raising serious questions about birth control. More recently, Protestant renewal movements count many couples that reject contraception and welcome the children that God sends, in His time.

It is these communities, I suggest, which remain faithful to the authentic evangelical family and sexual ethic, crafted in the 16th Century. The evidence suggesting their growth at the end of the 20th Century may be the sign of a better, more family-centric time ahead.

_The above article was previously published in the journal _Family Policy_ (June 1999) and is reprinted with permission. The research for this article became the basis for the book _Godly Seed: American Evangelicals Confront Birth Control, 1873-1973_(2011) by Allan Carlson._


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## Lucia

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/pray-more-novenas-podcast/id1041832266?mt=2&ls=1



http://www.praymorenovenas.com


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## Lucia

http://www.praymorenovenas.com/novenas/


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## Lucia

They have Twitter Facebook Google+
iTunes podcast 

https://mobile.twitter.com/praymorenovenas

https://m.facebook.com/novenas

https://plus.google.com/103748561676314601939/about

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/pray-more-novenas-podcast/id1041832266?mt=2&ls=1


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## Lucia




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## Lucia

Womens session




Men's Session


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## Lucia

Info on Catholic Home schooling 
Seton home schooling 

Setonhome.org 

http://www.setonhome.org


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## Belle Du Jour

Just finished a 54 day novena. It was a labor of love!  

Looking to start something new...


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## Lucia




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## Lucia

Institute of Catholic Culture 

Institute of Catholic Culture by Institute of Catholic Culture
https://appsto.re/us/5wui8.i

Latin Mass search by state 

http://www.latinmassschedule.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=54&Itemid=7


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## Lucia

Ven. Fulton Sheen


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## Lucia

http://www.praymorenovenas.com/our-lady-of-lourdes-novena


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## kanozas




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## kanozas




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## kanozas

Exodus 28:1-8

* Exodus 28Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)*
28 Take unto thee also Aaron thy brother with his sons, from among the children of Israel, that they may minister to me in the priest's office: Aaron, Nadab, and Abiu, Eleazar, and Ithamar.

2 And thou shalt make a holy vesture for Aaron thy brother for glory and for beauty.

3 And thou shalt speak to all the wise of heart, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's vestments, in which he being consecrated may minister to me.

4 And these shall be the vestments that they shall make: A rational and an ephod, a tunick and a strait linen garment, a mitre and a girdle. They shall make the holy vestments for thy brother Aaron and his sons, that they may do the office of priesthood unto me.

5 And they shall take gold, and violet, and purple, and scarlet twice dyed, and fine linen.

6 And they shall make the ephod of gold, and violet, and purple, and scarlet twice dyed, and fine twisted linen, embroidered with divers colours.

7 It shall have the two edges joined in the top on both sides, that they may be closed together.

8 The very workmanship also and all the variety of the work shall be of gold, and violet, and purple, and scarlet twice dyed, and fine twisted linen.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://catholicstraightanswers.com/...ng-of-the-vestments-the-priest-wears-at-mass/
*What is the origin and meaning of the vestments the priest wears at Mass?*


The liturgical vestments worn at Mass have evolved over time.  Nevertheless, since the earliest days of the Church, liturgical vestments have been worn by priests for the celebration of the Mass.  Even though priests of the Old Testament wore vestments in their liturgical rites, the “Christian” vestments are not really adaptations of them; rather, the vestments of the Christians developed from the dress of the Graeco-Roman world, including the religious culture.  Nevertheless, the Old Testament idea of wearing a special kind of clothing in the performance of liturgical rites did influence the Church.  St. Jerome asserted, “The Divine religion has one dress in the service of sacred things, another in ordinary intercourse and life.”  After the legalization of Christianity in A.D. 313, the Church continued to refine “who wore what when and how” until about the year 800 when liturgical norms for vesting were basically standardized and would remain so until the renewal following the Second Vatican Council.

To date, for the celebration of Mass, a priest wears the amice, alb, cincture, stole, and chasuble.  (With the promulgation of the new _Roman Missal_ in 1969, the use of the maniple was suppressed.)

The amice is a piece of white linen, rectangular in shape, with two long cloth ribbons.  The priest places it around his neck, covering the clerical collar, and then ties it by crisscrossing the ribbons in his front (to form a St. Andrew’s cross), bringing them around the back, around the waist and tying them in a bow.  The practical purpose of the amice is to conceal the normal clerical clothing of a priest, and to absorb any perspiration from the head and neck.  In the Graeco-Roman world, the amice was a head covering, oftentimes worn underneath the helmets of the Roman soldiers to absorb sweat, thereby preventing it from flowing into their eyes.  The spiritual purpose is to remind the priest of St. Paul’s admonition: “Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the spirit, the Word of God” (Ephesians 6:17).  The former vesting prayer was “Place, O Lord, the helmet of salvation on my head to resist the attacks of the devil.”

The alb is a long, white garment, which flows from shoulders to ankles, and has long sleeves extending to the wrists.  (The word _alb_ means “white.”) The alb was a common outer garment worn in the Graeco-Roman world and would be similar to the soutane worn in the Middle East.  However, those of authority wore albs of higher quality with some kind of embroidery or design.  Some modern style albs have collars which preclude the necessity for an amice.  The spiritual purpose reminds the priest of his baptism, when he was clothed in white to signify his freedom from sin, purity of new life, and Christian dignity.  Moreover, the Book of Revelation describes the saints who stand around the altar of the Lamb in Heaven as “These are the ones who have survived the great period of trial; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb” (7:14).  In the same way, the priest must offer the Mass with purity of body and soul, and with the dignity befitting Christ’s priesthood.  The former vesting prayer was “Make me white, O Lord, and purify my heart so that being made white in the Blood of the Lamb, I may deserve an eternal reward.”

The cincture is a long, thick cord with tassels at the ends which secures the alb around the waist.  It may be white or may be the same liturgical color as the other vestments.  In the Graeco-Roman world, the cincture was like a belt.  Spiritually, the cincture reminds the priest of the admonition of St. Peter: “So gird the loins of your understanding; live soberly; set all your hope on the gift to be conferred on you when Jesus Christ appears.  As obedient sons, do not yield to the desires that once shaped you in you ignorance.  Rather, become holy yourselves in every aspect of your conduct, after the likeness of the holy One who called you” (I Peter 1:13-15).  The former vesting prayer was “Gird me, O Lord, with the cincture of purity and extinguish in my heart the fire of concupiscence so that, the virtue of continence and chastity always abiding in my heart, I may better serve Thee.”

The stole is a long cloth, about four inches wide and of the same color as the chasuble, that is worn around the neck like a scarf.  It is secured at the waist with the cincture.  Traditionally, the stole was crisscrossed on the chest of the priest to symbolize the cross.  The stole too is of ancient origin.  Rabbis wore prayer shawls with tassels as a sign of their authority.  The crisscrossing of the stole also was symbolic of the crisscrossed belts the Roman soldiers wore: one belt, holding the sword at the waist, and the other belt, holding a pouch with provisions, like food and water.  In this sense, the stole reminds the priest not only of his authority and dignity as a priest, but also of his duty to preach the Word the God with courage and conviction (“Indeed, God’s word is living and effective, sharper than any two-edged sword.” Hebrews 4:12) and to serve the needs of the faithful.  The former vesting prayer was “Restore unto me, O Lord, the Stole of immortality which I lost through the sin of my first parents and, although unworthy to approach Thy sacred Mystery, may I nevertheless attain to joy eternal.”

Finally, the chasuble is the outer garment worn over the alb and stole.  Over the centuries, various styles of chasubles have emerged.  Derived from the Latin word _casula_ meaning “house,” the chasuble in the Graeco-Roman world was like a cape that completely covered the body and protected the person from inclement weather.  Spiritually, the chasuble reminds the priest of the charity of Christ: “Over all these virtues put on love, which binds the rest together and makes them perfect” (Colossians, 3:14).  The former vesting prayer was “O Lord, Who hast said, ‘My yoke is sweet and My burden light,’ grant that I may so carry it as to merit Thy grace.”

In the Middle Ages, two popular interpretations of the meaning of the vestments arose.  The most prevalent one interpreted the vestments as symbols of Jesus’ passion: the blindfold (the amice) and the garment (the alb) as He was mocked and beaten; the ropes and fetters (the cincture) which bound Him during the scourging; the cross (the stole) He carried; and the seamless garment (the chasuble) for which the soldiers rolled dice.  The other popular interpretation focused on the vestments in their Roman military origins and viewed them as symbols of the priest as the soldier of Christ doing battle against sin and Satan.

In all, the vestments used at Mass have a two-fold purpose: “These should therefore symbolize the function of each ministry.  But at the same time the vestments should also contributed to the beauty of the rite” (_General Instruction on the Roman Missal_, #335). Moreover, the vestments inspire the priest and all of the faithful to meditate on their rich symbolism.


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## Lucia




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## Lucia

Mass Times for Travel by Mass Times Trust
https://appsto.re/us/3FilX.i

Nice app for finding Catholic Churches addressed phones and mass times anywhere in the world.


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## Lucia




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## kanozas

Lucia said:


>




How about, "We're catholic, now get the hell offa my porch!"  lol


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## Lucia

kanozas said:


> How about, "We're catholic, now get the hell offa my porch!"  lol


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## Lucia

*Doesn't John 3:16 clearly indicate that faith alone is necessary for salvation?*

*Full Question*In John 3:16 Jesus says, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whomsoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life." It's clear that Scripture rejects the Catholic view of salvation by faith plus works. It teaches salvation by faith alone. All you have to do is believe, period.
*Answer*
First of all, the Catholic view of salvation is not faith plus works, if by works you mean purely human efforts to win God's favor.

Catholics believe in salvation by grace alone, yet grace must not be resisted, either before justification (by remaining in unbelief) or after (by engaging in serious sin). Read carefully 1 Corinthians 6, Galatians 5, and Ephesians 5.

Second, the Bible nowhere uses the expressions "justification by faith alone" or "salvation by faith alone." The first was directly the invention of Luther; the second his by implication. Luther inserted "alone" into the German translation of Romans 3:28 to give credence to his new doctrine.

But your question deals with John 3:16. Yes, this passage does speak of the saving power of faith, but in no sense does it diminish the role of obedience to Christ in the process of getting to heaven.

In fact, it assumes it. Just as Fundamentalists overlook the rest of the chapter in connection with what being born of water and the Holy Spirit really means--they ignore the water part, which refers to baptism--they also overlook the context when interpreting Christ's words about obtaining eternal life in John 3:16.

In John 3:36 we are told, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him."

This expands on John 3:16. It is another way of saying what Paul says in Romans 6:23: "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Although we cannot earn God's unmerited favor by our good works, we can reject his love by our sins (that is, by our evil works) and thereby lose the eternal life he freely offers us in Christ.


http://www.catholic.com/quickquesti...e-that-faith-alone-is-necessary-for-salvation


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## Lucia

*How to Be Offensive (without Being Offensive)*
By: John Martignon

In the realm of real-world apologetics, Catholics always seem to be on the defensive when it comes to talking about the Bible or religion in general. "Where is that in the Bible?" "Why do you confess your sins to a man rather than to God?" "Why do you believe you can work your way into heaven?" "Why do you believe the pope can’t commit a sin?" "Why do you baptize babies?" We always are correcting false notions and answering questions. Well, we need to start asking the questions—we need to take the offensive instead of always being on the defensive.

Of course, you don’t want to do it in a way that will offend someone or scare him away from further discussion. Most non-Catholic Christians are not prepared to deal with a Catholic who can answer their questions. When they do come across one, they generally retreat and wait for an easier target, or they get offended by what you have to say and refuse to discuss the matter any more. Sometimes that cannot be avoided. After all, truth is offensive to many people—look at what happened to Truth himself.

So, how can you be offensive (aw-fensive) without being offensive (uh-fensive)? Simple: Let the other person evangelize you.

Whenever someone starts coming at me with questions about the Catholic faith or attacks against it, I try to use his zeal to evangelize me to evangelize him. I’ll say something like this: "Scripture tells me that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. I believe that. I want to know the truth, because to know the truth is to know Jesus Christ! You’re telling me that the Catholic Church is not giving me the truth. Well, I’m open to hearing what you have to say, because I’m searching for truth—and if the Catholic Church doesn’t have it, then I want to know that."

Now, you can stop there, but I usually go further: "If you can prove to me that the Catholic Church is wrong on any single one of its doctrines, I will renounce my faith and be fellowshiping and worshiping side-by-side with you this Sunday in your church." And I mean that when I say it. Even if someone can confuse or befuddle or aggravate you or twist your arguments, he can never prove the Church wrong. Remember, there is nothing in the Bible contrary to the Catholic faith, and there is nothing in the Catholic faith contrary to the Bible.

What have you accomplished by saying this? (1) You probably have him salivating at the opportunity to "save" a Catholic from the darkness of "Romanism." In other words, you’ve almost guaranteed that he will engage you in dialogue. (2) You have elevated him to the role of teacher and lowered yourself to the role of student. And what does a good student do? He asks questions. (3) You have let him know that you are willing to hear him out and that you’re giving him the benefit of the doubt, so to speak.

You’ve also changed the dynamics of the dialogue. It is no longer you versus him, Catholic versus Baptist or Evangelical or anything else. You’ve turned it to a discussion of "What is the truth?" This is what the discussion _should_ be about. Of course, you know where the truth leads: to the Catholic Church. But you’re going to let him find that out on his own—with a little guidance from you and a lot of work from the Holy Spirit.

The Socratic element of this strategy can’t be emphasized enough. Ask questions. Be the good student. Answer questions with questions (like Jesus did—"Is it lawful to pay taxes?" he was asked. "Whose head is on the coin?" he answered).

Here’s a typical example: "Why do you Catholics believe in confessing your sins to a priest, a mere man, instead of straight to God?" The Catholic response: "Well, I’m sure you know the Bible better than I do, so tell me—does it say somewhere in the Bible that we shouldn’t confess our sins to a man? That we should confess our sins to God alone?" Let him show you the direct scriptural prohibition against a particular Catholic teaching. He won’t be able to do it—not when Scripture is interpreted in context.

As your knowledge of Scripture increases, you could add something like, "Well, if we’re not supposed to confess our sins to men, I’m a little confused. Maybe you can explain this to me. Doesn’t James 5:16 tell us that we are to confess are sins to men? And, in Matthew 9:8, why does God give the authority on earth to forgive sins to men if we are supposed to confess our sins to God alone?" Read Matthew 9:8 to him and ask, "What does that mean?"

As another example, you could say, "The Catholic Church teaches that both faith and works play a role in our salvation. But I think you believe in salvation by faith alone, right? Where in the Bible does it say that we are saved by faith alone?" He will likely take you to John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life," or Romans 3:28, "For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law" (Paul was speaking of the law of Moses, and specifically circumcision).

The key here is to read what Scripture he offers and compare it with what he said he believes. In this case, they don’t match. What he said he believed is that we are saved by faith "alone." What it says in the Bible speaks of belief in Christ or "faith." Catholics believe we are saved by faith, and our understanding of faith means that we believe Jesus is God, and, therefore, we trust what he says and we do as he asks, which demonstrates our love for him. That’s biblical (Matt. 5:48; 19:16–17; John 14:21; Gal. 5:5–6). But nowhere does the Bible say that we are saved by faith "alone."

Any non-Catholic doctrine that your opponent is trying to justify from Scripture cannot be justified from Scripture—not when Scripture is interpreted in context. Pay close attention to what he says and what the Bible says. I guarantee that the two will not match.

This is why it is necessary to have it ingrained in you that there is nothing in the Bible that is contrary to the Catholic faith. When you ask questions, you will get hit with Bible verse after Bible verse. Whenever someone puts a Bible verse in front of you that "proves" that the Catholic Church is wrong, slam your hand down on that Bible and say, "Amen! As a Catholic, I believe 100 percent of the Bible. But I do not necessarily agree with your personal, fallible interpretation of that passage."

No matter what passage he puts in front of you to "prove" that the Catholic Church is wrong, you can rest assured that either the passage doesn’t actually say what he is trying to make it say or he is taking the passage out of context. When you get to your second or third question on the same topic, I can almost guarantee that his responses will start to contradict themselves. But always keep in mind the "ignorant Catholic" technique. If you get turned around or confused, if you feel like you’ve gotten in over your head, say, "You know, that’s a good point. I don’t know the answer to that. I’ll have to think about it and pray about it and get back to you." Then go do your research and get back to him.

By asking questions of your "teacher," you are in fact the one doing the evangelizing. Protestant theology, where it differs from Catholic theology, is razor-thin. There is no depth to it, and it does not hold up well under scrutiny. The problem is that many folks just accept it at the surface and never try to plumb its depths. That’s what you should be attempting to do through your questions: getting this person to examine exactly what it is he believes and why. As with anything, it takes practice; but this is something that all Catholics can be and should be doing.

This questioning technique is also useful in taking the first step when wanting to engage people in a discussion. Let’s say you have a family member who has left the faith and become a member of a nondenominational church. You’ve wanted to start a discussion with him, but you’re not sure how. Tell him you’ve been thinking a lot lately about truth, and you were just wondering about why different Christian faiths believe different things. Would he mind if you asked him a question or two about his church?

People generally love to tell you about their church. Then, when given the green light, you could ask, for example, why does he believe in salvation by faith alone? Exactly what does that mean? Where did that teaching come from? Remember, you’re the ignorant Catholic, searching for truth. And remember, not only is the Bible on the Catholic’s side, but so is logic. Use it.




John Martignoni is founder and president of the Bible Christian Society, an apostolate dedicated to explaining and defending the Scriptural foundations of the Catholic faith. He presents talks around the country and hosts EWTN’s _Open Line_ program every Monday at...

http://www.catholic.com/profiles/john-martignoni


Source
http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/how-to-be-offensive-without-being-offensive


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## Lucia

*To Explain Infant Baptism You Must Explain Original Sin*
By: John Martignoni

http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/to-explain-infant-baptism-you-must-explain-original-sin

"Can you give me a Bible verse on infant baptism?" I often hear this from Catholics who want to explain the Church’s teaching on the subject to non-Catholics.

Well, no and yes. No, because there is no Bible verse that says, "Baptize infants" (just as there is no Bible verse that says, "Do not baptize infants"). But, yes, I can give you a Bible verse on infant baptism if you understand that the Church’s teaching on this subject flows from the Church’s teachings on original sin and the sacrament of baptism.

In this article, I will focus on explaining, from the Bible, the Church’s teaching on original sin to help us understand the Church’s teachings on baptism. Most non-Catholics don’t care about what the pope says or what the _Catechism_ says or what Vatican II says. They want to know: "Where is that in the Bible?"

The doctrine of original sin is that "in" Adam all have sinned. This parallels the doctrine of justification that "in" Christ all are righteous. Many Catholics do not fully understand or appreciate the importance of this parallel and how it weaves through much of Catholic teaching.

We can begin to understand this parallel—namely, through the first Adam all have died and through the second Adam (Christ) all have life—by looking at Romans 5. Verse 12 says that "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin." And look at the evidence throughout verses 15–19: "Many died through one man’s trespass. . . . For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation. . . . Because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man. . . . Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men. . . . By one man’s disobedience many were made sinners."

Look at verse 16: "For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation." Who did it bring condemnation for? Adam only? No—verse 18 says, "Then as _one_ man’s trespass led to condemnation for _all_ men" (emphasis added). This is stated even more clearly by the King James rendering the same verse: "Therefore, as by the offense of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation."

These passages are all about the Church’s doctrine of original sin. Because of Adam’s sin, all men were made subject to sin and death. That is Scripture’s teaching on the doctrine of original sin.

This sin of Adam’s was not your ordinary sin. This was a sin that affected all mankind forever. This sin changed the course of human history. It did not just affect Adam personally; it also affected his human nature—which means it affected our nature, since we inherited it from him. Adam and Eve were created with immortal bodies. They knew no suffering, they knew no disease, they knew no death. Before the fall, their bodies would not have been subject to cancer or to Alzheimer’s disease or heart attacks or muscular dystrophy or sickle cell anemia or any one of a host of other diseases. But ours are.

Adam was tested by God not just as Adam but as the representative of the whole human race, since we are all the seed of Adam. Just as David and Goliath met on the battlefield as champions of their respective armies, Adam was our champion. If your champion lost in battle to the other army’s champion, then you lost the battle—even though you never unsheathed your sword and were never bloodied in battle. David slew the Philistines’ champion and the Philistines took off running (cf. 1 Sam. 17:51). In the battle against the evil one, Adam lost. As a result, we also lost.

Some folks have a problem with the concept that we, Adam’s posterity, should have to pay a price for a sin we didn’t commit. They do not understand how the Church is using the term _original sin_. As the _Catechism_ says, "original sin is called ‘sin’ only in an analogical sense: it is a sin ‘contracted’ and not ‘committed’—a state and not an act" (CCC 404).

Adam’s sin changed everything—for him and for us. There was a fundamental change in man’s relationship with God. God no longer walked the earth with man. What’s more, Satan was now ruler of the world. There was a fundamental change in the relationship of man to nature and a fundamental change in nature itself (cf. Rom. 8:19–22). A fundamental change in the relationship between man and woman. A fundamental change in relationships among _all_ men, since sin and death had entered the world. A fundamental change in the nature of man himself. It’s all right there in the Bible. And it is the Church’s teaching on the doctrine of original sin.

But for each of those verses in Romans 5 about how Adam’s disobedience affected us, there is a parallel verse describing how Jesus’ obedience affected us. This parallel is paramount. One man’s disobedience leads to death for all; one man’s obedience leads to life for all. We see this parallel in 1 Corinthians 15:21–22: "For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive."

Let’s expand for a minute on this concept of being "in" Adam. The writer of Hebrews says something interesting in referring to when Abraham and Melchizedek met in Genesis 14: "Levi himself, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham. For he was still in the loins of his ancestor [Abraham] when Melchizedek met him [Abraham]" (Heb. 7:9–10).

Levi wasn’t born for another seventy years or so after this incident of Abraham paying a tithe to Melchizedek, yet the Bible says that Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek. How is that possible? Because Levi was _in_ Abraham—in his loins, according to the Bible.

This is the same concept we are talking about with original sin and being _in_ Adam and with salvation and being _in_ Christ.

We are born with a fallen nature, a nature that is separated from God as a result of Adam’s sin. We have to be born again to become joined to God, to be _in_ Christ, to become a member of the body of Christ, to be saved. We are born of Adam’s body into condemnation. We are born of Christ’s body unto salvation.

Finally, we reach the part where this ties into infant baptism. In the Gospel of John, Jesus says, "Unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). In verse 5 he repeats himself: "Unless one is born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

In other words, being born again is the same thing as being born of water and the Spirit, and it is a necessary condition for entering the kingdom of God. Jesus is saying that a man must be born of water and the Spirit—in other words, he must be baptized. The Bible tells us that you cannot enter the kingdom of God if you are not baptized.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6). Remember that: The Bible says that which is born of the flesh is flesh. Not only that, but "it is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail" (John 6:63).

Now, when a child is born, it is born into the flesh. But the Bible tells us that the flesh is of no avail because of the consequences of original sin. That’s why Jesus says we have to be born again. The first birth is birth of the flesh, but we need something more in order to have life.

What is that something more? The Bible tells us: Everyone must be born of the Spirit in order to have eternal life; it is the Spirit that gives life, not the flesh. And how do we receive the Spirit? The Bible tells us that we receive the Spirit by being born again—by being born of water and the Spirit—by being baptized. We find this in Ezekiel 36:25–27, John 3:3–5, Acts 2:38, and elsewhere. When we are baptized we put on Christ (cf. Gal. 3:27). We are buried with him in baptism (Rom. 6:4). We become members of the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13). We receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). We become a new creation in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17).

To sum up these last few paragraphs: Adam is the representative of the flesh. Christ is the representative of the Spirit. When we are born physically, born into the flesh, we are in Adam. When we are baptized—when we are born again, when we are born of the Spirit—we are in Christ. Infants need to be baptized, just like anyone else, so that they can be "in Christ," so that they can put on Christ, so that they can become children of God, so that they can become members of the body of Christ, so that they can be granted eternal life.

One other Scripture passage that I like to use when discussing original sin is found in Ephesians 2:3: "Among these we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of body and mind, and so we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." We see here another very clear reflection of Catholic teaching in the Bible. Ephesians 2:3 is, in a nutshell, the Catholic teaching on original sin: We were by nature children of wrath. That’s what the Catholic Church teaches.

So can I give you a Bible verse on infant baptism? Yes, if you remember two things:

1. We are by nature children of wrath. Original sin is real. It is not something the Catholic Church invented. We are born of the flesh, not of the Spirit. We are not born in a state of holiness. We are born in a state of original sin.

2. Through baptism we are "born again" and made new creatures in Christ; through baptism our sins are forgiven. Through baptism we become members of the body of Christ, which is the Church. Through baptism we receive the Holy Spirit; through baptism we are saved. Baptism is necessary for salvation.

The washing away of original sin is a good and necessary thing. The joining of the infant to the body of Christ, the Church, is a good and necessary thing. The infant receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a good and necessary thing. The infant receiving the free gift of God’s salvation is a good and necessary thing.

It’s that simple. As Catholics, we want all these things for our children, not just for adults. Why would anyone want to deny infants and children the incredible gifts received through baptism? As the Bible tells us, the promise is to you and your children (cf. Acts 2:39). When you explain infant baptism in the context of original sin and sacramental baptism—of being born into a state of original sin and being born again into a state of grace—you make a very powerful argument on behalf of the Church’s teachings in this area. And you do it straight from the Bible.




John Martignoni is founder and president of the Bible Christian Society, an apostolate dedicated to explaining and defending the Scriptural foundations of the Catholic faith. He presents talks around the country and hosts EWTN’s _Open Line_ program every Monday at...

And host of Blue Collar Apologetics on EWTN


----------



## Lucia

http://www.catholic.com/profiles/john-martignoni


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## kanozas

Lucia said:


> http://www.catholic.com/profiles/john-martignoni




Excellent resource!  Thank you.


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## Lucia

kanozas said:


> Excellent resource!  Thank you.



I'm going to order his John Martgnonis dvd Blue Collar Apologetics and the Protestants dilemma by Devin Rose. For the kind of shenanigans going on in the Christian random thoughts thread  

http://www.amazon.com/The-Protestants-Dilemma-Reformations-Consequences/dp/1938983610

and eventually order books of Tim Staples Devin Rose and Trent  Horn Scott Hahn and Fr Mitch Pacwa
They are usually in catholic answers live sometimes and Devin Rose has his own podcast.


----------



## kanozas

Lucia said:


> I'm going to order his John Martgnonis dvd Blue Collar Apologetics and the Protestants dilemma by Devin Rose. For the kind of shenanigans going on in the Christian random thoughts thread
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/The-Protestants-Dilemma-Reformations-Consequences/dp/1938983610
> 
> and eventually order books of Tim Staples Devin Rose and Trent  Horn Scott Hahn and Fr Mitch Pacwa
> They are usually in catholic answers live sometimes and Devin Rose has his own podcast.


  I just got a new phone and it comes with a pre-installed "kindle"  ...wondering if it's available like that?  I have never used Kindle before but I see lots of things for Pope Francis in the PLaystore.  I have some prayers downloaded on my phone but if I could only download what I want to, I'd need to buy a few hundred bucks of microSD lol!


----------



## kanozas

Circumcision, which is 7,000 years old, some 3,500 year or so older than Hebrewisms.  Was it invalidated because HaShem used it with the people Israel?  No.  Virgin and Child...prefigured in very ancient times.  Is Mary the Mother of Jesus, a virgin or was she not a virgin?  Did she not carry Jesus?  Egyptian g-ds?  What about Krishna, who preceded Jesus by centuries.  Jesus' life practically mirrors his.  Was Jesus real?  You truly have to think about it.  Why would G-d allow all these prefigured histories, stories, practices?  When Jesus came, He told us that He is the Way...the One, the true Way.   In all religions, there are elements of truth but the Judeo-Christian faith is THE truth and the completion.


----------



## Lucia

kanozas said:


> I just got a new phone and it comes with a pre-installed "kindle"  ...wondering if it's available like that?  I have never used Kindle before but I see lots of things for Pope Francis in the PLaystore.  I have some prayers downloaded on my phone but if I could only download what I want to, I'd need to buy a few hundred bucks of microSD lol!



Kindle is great I just prefer real books but I have a couple things on kindle for quick reference. I wouldn't by an entire book collection on there it's a waste 1 major computer crash and you loose it all. 
You can save it on your desktop or laptop  too  just choose what downloads and stores on the desktop and choose what stays on your phone. I know iTunes works that way android store items check and see I'm sure they have the similar set up. I have tons more podcasts and audio books on my computer than my phone I just have a portion on my phone to listen too when I'm out and about then I switch it out for more so I don't overload my phone memory.

ETA  they have it I just checked. 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/kindle/kcp/tos.html


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## Lucia

More resources on this website besides if you know which authors to look up on Amazon you can get multiple books at a discount sometimes. 

Tim Staples 

http://shop.catholic.com/defending-...jections-to-catholicism.html?___store=default


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## kanozas

Lucia said:


> Kindle is great I just prefer real books but I have a couple things on kindle for quick reference. I wouldn't by an entire book collection on there it's a waste 1 major computer crash and you loose it all.
> You can save it on your desktop or laptop  too  just choose what downloads and stores on the desktop and choose what stays on your phone. I know iTunes works that way android store items check and see I'm sure they have the similar set up. I have tons more podcasts and audio books on my computer than my phone I just have a portion on my phone to listen too when I'm out and about then I switch it out for more so I don't overload my phone memory.
> 
> ETA  they have it I just checked.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/kindle/kcp/tos.html




Kindle in addition to "real books"  lol.  I have a library at home.  It would be nice to read something edifying or informative when I'm out and about.  Beats games when I have a little down time and become bored during breaks.  Thanks for the link!


----------



## Lucia

http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-te...e/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/


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## Lucia

repost 



Galadriel said:


> I think the tagging has a bug because I missed this tag, @kanozas
> 
> I'm afraid what Laela posted is false and inaccurate. In fact, it's a rehash of common misconceptions that have already been adequately addressed.


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## Lucia

start at post #97 
https://longhaircareforum.com/threads/2016-christian-random-thoughts.778459/page-4


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## Belle Du Jour

Lucia said:


> repost of Kanozas
> 
> 
> 
> @Laela Why not go to the unbiased source? Might I present to you the catholic document of the catechism of the catholic church? All the answers are there. All christianity derives from the first church - the one that Christ instituted on the earth. *People tend to fault the Roman church but don't realize that the Eastern Church is the same.* We are all one. It is not our fault that people choose to fabricate falsehoods such as we are not biblical. Well, what can we say other than, perhaps, consider prayer for the truth?
> 
> 
> http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-te...e/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/



I often wonder why Protestants who bash the Catholic church are silent about the Eastern churches.  Then I realize they probably don't realize that those churches exist and that those churches (for all intents and purposes) look pretty identical to the RCC.  Are the Eastern churches and their patriarchs (aka popes) also the "whore of Babylon?"   Again, it becomes very obvious that these statements come down to lack of knowledge about the actual history of Christianity.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Also food for thought: if the original Christian church was not catholic, why are the remains of the apostles buried in churches that TODAY would be identified as catholic?? Hmmmm....


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## Belle Du Jour

One more thought: if one goes to the Holy Land today, the Christian churches that exist on the holiest places are Catholic or Orthodox.  Period.   You won't find a Methodist church or a 7th Day Adventist church or a Non-denominational church where the angel announced to Mary that she was to be the mother of the Lord or at the place of Golgotha or the sepulcher.  The history lesson is very obvious: if the churches present today retain the legacy and connection to these holy sites, then by default the earliest churches were catholic.


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## kanozas

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ted-cruz-donald-trump-spar-over-transgender-bathroom-law/


Anybody catholic have an article on one of our own addressing this stupid issue of "transgender" bathrooms?  It's not just the possibility that someone could harass a girl in the bathroom, I just don't want to go to bathroom with a man, as a woman.  Period.  No further discussion lol.  Why can't they see that?


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## Lucia

kanozas said:


> http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ted-cruz-donald-trump-spar-over-transgender-bathroom-law/
> 
> 
> Anybody catholic have an article on one of our own addressing this stupid issue of "transgender" bathrooms?  It's not just the possibility that someone could harass a girl in the bathroom, I just don't want to go to bathroom with a man, as a woman.  Period.  No further discussion lol.  Why can't they see that?



That's the only thing Ted has said as of late that I agree with. ^^ 
I haven't seen one yet but if I do I will post it.

Now I just think it's not a good idea at all simply because little girls and women should not have to see a strange mans package at all.  Most transgenders don't get the final surgery right away so what are we going to have urinals in the women's bathrooms and them dropping trou to accommodate what is less than 1% of the total 2% LGBT community compared to the rest of the US? I for one don't want to see it, seriously? Have they lost all notion of common sense? Yes they have.  I heard that sin dulls the senses and intelligence this situation makes me think it's true.

Seriously there also the obvious implications of changing the laws like any smart pervert or rapist off the street could then walk into the women's bathroom and lay in wait for his victims. There's no way to discern who's an OK man in the women's bathroom and a pervert.  its just asking for tragedy.


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## AtlantaJJ

Thank you for this thread! I'm going to start reading now.


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## Lucia

AtlantaJJ said:


> Thank you for this thread! I'm going to start reading now.



YW on the first page first post I have other Catholic links you migh want to check out the books and references thread there's tons of material in that thread to get you started.


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## kanozas

Lucia said:


> .
> 
> Seriously there also the obvious implications of changing the laws like any smart pervert or rapist off the street could then walk into the women's bathroom and lay in wait for his victims. There's no way to discern who's an OK man in the women's bathroom and a pervert.  *its just asking for tragedy*.




No kidding, smh.  Scary.  What about the rest of us women?  Nothing?  SMH.  What is it that WE want over the wants of 1 billionth of the population lol?


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## Lucia

Repost with info and text



Chaplet St Michael

The Chaplet of St. Michael is a wonderful way to honor this great Archangel along with the other nine Choirs of Angels. What do we mean by Choirs? It seems that God has created various orders of Angels. Sacred Scripture distinguishes nine such groupings: Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones, Dominations, Powers, Virtues, Principalities, Archangels and Angels (Isa. 6:2; Gen. 3:24; Col. 1:16; Eph. 1:21; Rom. 8:38). There may be more groupings but these are the only ones that have been revealed to us. The Seraphim is believed to be the highest Choir, the most intimately united to God, while the Angelic Choir is the lowest.

The history of this Chaplet goes back to a devout Servant of God, Antonia d'Astonac, who had a vision of St. Michael. He told Antonia to honor him by nine salutations to the nine Choirs of Angels. St. Michael promised that whoever would practice this devotion in his honor would have, when approaching Holy Communion, an escort of nine angels chosen from each of the nine Choirs. In addition, for those who would recite the Chaplet daily, he promised his continual assistance and that of all the holy angels during life.

*The Chaplet of St. Michael*

O God, come to my assistance. O Lord, make haste to help me. Glory be to the Father, etc.

[Say one Our Father and three Hail Marys after each of the following nine salutations in honor of the nine Choirs of Angels]



1. By the intercession of St. Michael and the celestial Choir o Seraphim may the Lord make us worthy to burn with the fire o perfect charity.
Amen.




2. By the intercession of St. Michael and the celestial Choir o Cherubim may the Lord grant us the grace to leave the ways of sin and run in the paths of Christian perfection.
Amen.




3. By the intercession of St. Michael and the celestial Choir o Thrones may the Lord infuse into our hearts a true and sincer spirit of humility.
Amen.




4. By the intercession of St. Michael and the celestial Choir o Dominations may the Lord give us grace to govern our senses and overcome any unruly passions.
Amen.


5. By the intercession of St. Michael and the celestial Choir of Virtues may the Lord preserve us from evil and falling into temptation. Amen.



6. By the intercession of St. Michael and the celestial Choir o Powers may the Lord protect our souls against the snares an temptations of the devil.
Amen.


7. By the intercession of St. Michael and the celestial Choir of Principalities may God fill our souls with a true spirit of obedience. Amen.



8. By the intercession of St. Michael and the celestial Choir o Archangels may the Lord give us perseverance in faith and in all good works in order that we may attain the glory of Heaven.
Amen.




9. By the intercession of St. Michael and the celestial Choir o Angels may the Lord grant us to be protected by them in this mortal life and conducted in the life to come to Heaven.
Amen.


Say one Our Father in honor of each of the following leading Angels: St. Michael, St. Gabriel, St. Raphael and our Guardian Angel.

*Concluding prayers:*

O glorious prince St. Michael, chief and commander of the heavenly hosts, guardian of souls, vanquisher of rebel spirits, servant in the house of the Divine King and our admirable conductor, you who shine with excellence and superhuman virtue deliver us from all evil, who turn to you with confidence and enable us by your gracious protection to serve God more and more faithfully every day.

Pray for us, O glorious St. Michael, Prince of the Church of Jesus Christ, that we may be made worthy of His promises.



Almighty and Everlasting God, Who, by a prodigy of goodness and a merciful desire for the salvation of all men, has appointed the most glorious Archangel St. Michael Prince of Your Church, make us worthy, we ask You, to be delivered from all our enemies, that none of them may harass us at the hour of death, but that we may be conducted by him into Your Presence.This we ask through the merits of
Jesus Christ Our Lord.


*Amen.*


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## Lucia

Our Lady, Undoer of Knots, pray for us.
Day 1 of this Novena
Caught just in time to start in day 1.

http://www.praymorenovenas.com

http://www.praymorenovenas.com/mary-undoer-knots-novena/

*Subscribe with these links:*

Audio Podcast in iTunes
Video Podcast in iTunes
Youtube Channel



Find the Original Here: http://www.praymorenovenas.com/#ixzz46ihuxXEt

Podcast link available on homepage too it's free. Subscribe to the podcast and your novena downloads daily I've been getting them in now. I used to forget the dates etc


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## Belle Du Jour

Lucia said:


> Crowned with Stars
> English translation
> 
> 
> 
> We salute you ,
> O thou our Lady
> Mary, Blessed Virgin that drapes the sun
> Crowned with stars , the moon is beneath your feet
> In you we are given
> The aurora of the salute
> 
> 1 - Marie new Eve and joy of your Lord,
> You gave birth to Jesus the Savior ,
> As you open the doors to the garden,
> Show us the way, the Morning Star .
> 2 - You stayed loyal, mother at the foot of the cross,
> Supports our hope and keep our faith,
> On the side of your Son , you have drawn for us
> Water and blood made that save from sin.
> 3 - What joy was Eve's when you went up
> Higher than all the Angels , higher than the clouds ,
> And what is our joy, sweet Virgin Mary ,
> To behold in you the promise of life .
> 4 - O Immaculate Virgin ; preserved from sin,
> In your soul, in your body, you enter heaven ,
> Caught in glory, Holy Queen of Heaven ,
> You will take us up one day with God.



I love this song! First heard it at the wedding of Prince Albert.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Lucia said:


> Our Lady, Undoer of Knots, pray for us.
> Day 1 of this Novena
> Caught just it one to start in day 1.
> 
> http://www.praymorenovenas.com
> 
> Podcast link available on homepage too it's free. Subscribe to the podcast and your novena downloads daily I've been getting them in now. I used to forget the dates etc



Love this one.


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## Lucia

https://www.ewtnreligiouscatalogue....+VIDEO/More/BLUE+COLLAR+APOLOGETICS+-+DVD.axd


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## Lucia

EWTN live
http://www.ewtn.com/multimedia/live_player.asp?sat=dome

Check out one faith experience  on now live on EWTN 

Their website no live feed 
https://squareup.com/store/onefaithstore


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## kanozas

I get inspired viewing these:


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## Lucia




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## Belle Du Jour

kanozas said:


> I get inspired viewing these:



She is our mother in the order of Grace.  Next to the Eucharist, I'm SO grateful that I have her--she is such a good mother!


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## kanozas

Belle Du Jour said:


> She is our mother in the order of Grace.  Next to the Eucharist, I'm SO grateful that I have her--she is such a good mother!




I will go there and see this.  Have to!!!  They studied the reflection in her eyes and in it is this:





...of the people present at the apparition.  It's a miracle itself that it's not rotted, not faded, uncorrupt and made of cactus fibres of some sort?  Hundreds of years old!


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## Lucia

kanozas said:


> I get inspired viewing these:



The story of he apparition is a miracle in itself too.


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## kanozas

^^^What you mean, mamita?  LOL.  There are so my YT vids on it, esp. of the professors who studied it.   I think Our Lady kinda sealed the deal on me as far as curiosity way back when.  Here's a newer movie on it:


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## Lucia

The Lies we buy exposing spiritual dangers



She talks about LOA laws of attraction, reiki, yoga and meditation,  Hindu or Krishna based practices, palm readings, readings tea leaves, divination, Esther Hicks and "Abraham" teachjngs, Oprah Winfrey, Ekhart Tolle , ghost hunters, Harry Potter, etc... All fall under Leviticus

Lev 19:31
mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.

Lev 20:21
"'A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.'"

Lev 20
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+20&version=NCV

Tattoos
Lev 19:28
Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD.

Lev 19
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus 19


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## LiftedUp

I was encouraged to pray the St Jude Novena last week .  My 9th day was on Thursday and I've been receiving resolutions and answers to my request since yesterday.  Thanks be to God for his grace and mercy and thank you St Jude for your intercession .

St. Jude Novena: http://www.praymorenovenas.com/st-jude-novena/


To God be the Glory!


----------



## Xaragua

Why are babies not baptized by immersion as they do in orthodox churches?


----------



## kanozas

Xaragua said:


> Why are babies not baptized by immersion as they do in orthodox churches?




http://www.catholic.com/tracts/baptism-immersion-only


It's a comprehensive answer and I encourage you to read the whole article which is a little long to post here.  Excerpt:


_Earlier we saw that the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" was depicted as "pouring." But these passages show that the "baptism" or "pouring" of the Spirit is itself closely related to water baptism. 


This provides some balance to the Fundamentalist argument that only baptism by immersion adequately symbolizes death and resurrection with Jesus. It is true that immersion bestrepresents death and resurrection, bringing out more fully the meaning of the sacrament than pouring or sprinkling (cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church 1239). (*Immersion is actually the usual mode of baptizing in the Catholic Church’s Eastern rites.*) On the other hand, pouring best represents the infusion of the Holy Spirit also associated with water baptism. And all three modes adequately suggest the sense of cleansing signified by baptism. No one mode has exclusive symbolical validity over the others. _


----------



## Xaragua

kanozas said:


> http://www.catholic.com/tracts/baptism-immersion-only
> 
> 
> It's a comprehensive answer and I encourage you to read the whole article which is a little long to post here.  Excerpt:
> 
> 
> _Earlier we saw that the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" was depicted as "pouring." But these passages show that the "baptism" or "pouring" of the Spirit is itself closely related to water baptism.
> 
> 
> This provides some balance to the Fundamentalist argument that only baptism by immersion adequately symbolizes death and resurrection with Jesus. It is true that immersion bestrepresents death and resurrection, bringing out more fully the meaning of the sacrament than pouring or sprinkling (cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church 1239). (*Immersion is actually the usual mode of baptizing in the Catholic Church’s Eastern rites.*) On the other hand, pouring best represents the infusion of the Holy Spirit also associated with water baptism. And all three modes adequately suggest the sense of cleansing signified by baptism. No one mode has exclusive symbolical validity over the others. _


Thanks will read it later


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## LiftedUp

I did this for 3 hours with no specific request.  My heart kept telling me to:

by Sherrise 
(Canada)

Pray this prayer daily for 3 consecutive days, your prayer will be answered after the third day. In making your request, promise to publish this prayer ( share in writing on the internet this prayer or distribute this prayer to others ). 


Holy Spirit You who make me see everything and showed me the way to reach my ideals, You who gave me the Divine gift to forgive all the wrong that was done to me, and You who are in all instances in my my life. I want to Thank You for everything and confirm with you once more I never want to be separated from You no matter how great the material desire may be. I want to be with you and my loved ones in your perpetual Glory. Amen < Make request >


----------



## kanozas

What is the most  important aspect of Pentecost, the reaction of the apostles and the crowd gathered speaking in different tongues?

No, the most important aspect of Pentecost is the greatest gift promised to us - the H-ly Spirit sent to be with us always.  G-d is with us.  Jesus will not leave us.


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## Lucia

LiftedUp said:


> I did this for 3 hours with no specific request.  My heart kept telling me to:
> 
> by Sherrise
> (Canada)
> 
> Pray this prayer daily for 3 consecutive days, your prayer will be answered after the third day. In making your request, promise to publish this prayer ( share in writing on the internet this prayer or distribute this prayer to others ).
> 
> 
> Holy Spirit You who make me see everything and showed me the way to reach my ideals, You who gave me the Divine gift to forgive all the wrong that was done to me, and You who are in all instances in my my life. I want to Thank You for everything and confirm with you once more I never want to be separated from You no matter how great the material desire may be. I want to be with you and my loved ones in your perpetual Glory. Amen < Make request >



Pentecost Holy Spirit novena just finished yesterday but we can say any novena anytime of course.
That pray more Novenas website is really good love the reminders


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## Lucia

Beginning apologetics superset
Fr Frank Chacon

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1930084234/ref=pd_aw_sbs_14_1?ie=UTF8&dpID=61PfVcExdYL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL100_SR100,100_&refRID=F438NN8KTQFWXMGE1PMP

Beginning apologetics book 1

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1930...40_QL65&keywords=begining.+apologetics+chacon


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## kanozas

*Prayer to Saint Michael (help Against Spiritual Enemies)*

Glorious St. Michael, Prince of the heavenly hosts, who standest always ready to give assistance to the people of God; who didst fight with the dragon, the old serpent, and didst cast him out of heaven, and now valiantly defendest the Church of God that the gates of hell may never prevail against her, I earnestly entreat thee to assist me also, in the painful and dangerous conflict which I have to sustain against the same formidible foe. Be with me, O mighty Prince! that I may courageously fight and wholly vanquish that proud spirit, whom thou hast by the Divine Power, so gloriously overthrown, and whom our powerful King, Jesus Christ, has, in our nature, so completely overcome; to the end that having triumphed over the enemy of my salvation, I may with thee and the holy angels, praise the clemency of God who, having refused mercy to the rebellious angels after their fall, has granted repentance and forgiveness to fallen man.
Amen


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## kanozas

*Question:*  Why do  catholics pray to saints (ask for intercession)?  Here's an answer:

http://www.st-george-medal.com/St-George-Prayer.htm

*The intercession of saints* is a common Christian doctrine for the majority of Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Anglican churches back to the time of the earliest church. While fundamentalists often challenge the practice of asking prayer intercession the Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray for us.

"Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (*Ps. 103:20-21*). The opening verses of Psalms 148 "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" 

"The twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). 

"Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us" (*1 Tim. 2:1-4*). 

The early Church Fathers clearly recognized that those in heaven can and do intercede for us. They applied this biblical teaching in their daily prayer.

"A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers" (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]). 

"At the Lord's table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps" (Homilies on John 84 [A.D. 416]).

A patron is chosen by election as a special intercessor with God and is honored by clergy and people in special forms of religious observance. The term 'patron' must have the rank of a canonized saint be it applied to a church, a district, a country or a corporation.


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## kanozas

http://www.st-george-medal.com/St-George-Prayer.htm

*St. George Prayer*

St. George, Heroic Catholic soldier and defender of your Faith, you dared to criticize a tyrannical Emperor and were subjected to horrible torture. You could have occupied a high military position but you preferred to die for your Lord. Obtain for us the great grace of heroic Christian courage that should mark soldiers of Christ. Amen"

*Saint George Prayer*

O GOD, who didst grant to Saint George strength and constancy in the various torments which he sustained for our holy faith; we beseech Thee to preserve, through his intercession, our faith from wavering and doubt, so that we may serve Thee with a sincere heart faithfully unto death. Through Christ our Lord.
Amen.

*
Invocation of Saint George - Prayers of Intercession*

Faithful servant of God and invincible martyr, Saint George;
favored by God with the gift of faith, and inflamed with an ardent love of Christ, thou didst fight valiantly against the dragon of pride, falsehood, and deceit. Neither pain nor torture, sword nor death could part thee from the love of Christ. I fervently implore thee for the sake of this love to help me by thy intercession to overcome the temptations that surround me, and to bear bravely the trials that oppress me, so that I may patiently carry the cross which is placed upon me; and let neither distress nor difficulties separate me from the love of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Valiant champion of the Faith, assist me in the combat against evil, that I may win the crown promised to them that persevere unto the end.


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## Lucia

Just a one stop for references and info.

ETA: There is what people believe about Catholics and who Catholics really are and what Catholics actually believe.

Catholic Books, Study Guides, and References
https://www.longhaircareforum.com/threads/catholic-books-study-guides-and-references-etc.761517/

Catholic Q and A 
https://www.longhaircareforum.com/threads/catholic-q-a-discussion-all-welcome.761527/

Catholic Random Thoughts
https://www.longhaircareforum.com/threads/catholic-random-thoughts.638851/

some Catholic info here as well:
https://longhaircareforum.com/threads/for-catholics-documentsarticles.626427/

Catholic Novenas and Prayers
https://www.longhaircareforum.com/threads/catholic-novenas-and-other-prayers.765049/

Christian Forum Rules
https://longhaircareforum.com/threads/rules-for-christianity-forum.50150/

Regarding threads on various religions
https://longhaircareforum.com/threads/regarding-threads-on-various-religions.790853/


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## Lucia

Duplicate


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## Lucia

Catholic Books, Study Guides, and References
https://www.longhaircareforum.com/threads/catholic-books-study-guides-and-references-etc.761517/

Catholic Random Thoughts
https://www.longhaircareforum.com/threads/catholic-random-thoughts.638851/

some Catholic info here as well:
https://longhaircareforum.com/threads/for-catholics-documentsarticles.626427/

Catholic Novenas and Prayers
https://www.longhaircareforum.com/threads/catholic-novenas-and-other-prayers.765049/

Catholic Q and A 
https://www.longhaircareforum.com/threads/catholic-q-a-discussion-all-welcome.761527/

Christian Forum Rules
https://longhaircareforum.com/threads/rules-for-christianity-forum.50150/

Regarding threads on various religions
https://longhaircareforum.com/threads/regarding-threads-on-various-religions.790853/


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## Galadriel

Awesome thread, ladies! It never hurts to brush up on knowledge and read more about the Faith


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## Lucia

Pay special attention to what he says about Adam and Eve subordination right order and authority. Very deep stuff.


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## Lucia




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## Lucia

@kanozas 
Found something about the transgender issue


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## Lucia




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## kanozas

Question:  Did the Early Church Christians subscribe to 'sola scriptura' (bible-only)?

Disclaimer:  provided for study and reflection and fact-finding for those who often wonder how and why we arrive at what we arrive at
Link
*Did the Early Christians Subscribe to Sola Scriptura?*
*A Protestant Misunderstanding *
By:  Jennifer Hay






The issue of authority remains the most fundamental source of division between Catholics and Protestants. Mainline Protestants (Lutherans, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Episcopalians, Methodists, etc.) do not reject tradition or ecclesial authority; indeed, they have a high regard for both and believe that Scripture can only be interpreted correctly within the context of the creeds of the early Church. However, Protestants believe that only Scripture is exempt from the possibility of teaching error. Consequently, when the Protestant senses a conflict between Scripture and the authoritative teachings of a church, he feels a moral obligation to go with (his interpretation of) Scripture. Although _sola scriptura_ is difficult to define rigorously, this obligation is an essential aspect of the doctrine.

*Did Reformers Just Get It Wrong?*
The most common Catholic argument against _sola scriptura_ is that it has splintered the Church. Thousands of Protestant denominations exist today, each one claiming to interpret Scripture by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. In his book _The Shape of_ Sola Scriptura, Protestant Keith Mathison defends the doctrine but admits, "There is no doubt that hermeneutical anarchy reigns in much of Protestantism" (305). Mathison offers several reasons for the apparent failure:

What about its workability during Protestantism’s "relatively brief life-span"? We cannot point to the same kind of practical success of Tradition I [_sola scriptura_] over the last five centuries for several reasons. First, the Reformation occurred long after the Church had initially split, and this initial split created problems which the Reformation could not possibly solve immediately. Second, the rather rapid substitution of solo _scriptura_ for _sola scriptura_ within Protestant circles led to the rapid fragmentation of Protestantism. Third, the radical individualism of the Enlightenment in Western Europe contributed to the weakening of virtually every branch of Christendom. (290) [Note: Mathison uses the term "solo _scriptura_" to describe the Protestant tendency to interpret Scripture apart from its historical and theological context.]

After offering these explanations, Mathison goes on to argue that, although _sola scriptura_ has not enjoyed practical success since the Reformation, we can be sure that the problem is not with the doctrine itself, because _sola scriptura_ was the guiding principle of the earliest Christians. (This view is common among mainline Protestant theologians; Mathison’s book was endorsed by R.C. Sproul.) Mathison’s explanation is actually a response to an essay by Patrick Madrid, a Catholic apologist:

If Madrid is asking about Tradition I, which was framed by the classical Reformers in terms of _sola scriptura_, then the response to his request for "just one" example of when it has worked would be the first three to four hundred years of the Church. This was a time prior to the existence of either of the positions Rome has advocated for the last five hundred years, and Tradition I [_sola scriptura_] worked fine . . . It worked without a universal bishop, and it worked without any claims to ecclesiastical infallibility. (_The Shape of_ Sola Scriptura, 290)

By "worked fine," I shall assume that Mathison means "preserved orthodoxy." So, as a case study in ecclesial authority, we shall examine how orthodoxy was preserved in the early Church on the issue of what constitutes a valid Christian baptism.

*Cyprian’s Concern*
Today, mainline Protestants and Catholics agree as to what constitutes a valid Christian baptism. Protestants and Catholics agree that baptism is valid if it involves the application of water and is performed in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit with the intention of doing what Jesus commanded. Therefore, it is against God’s intentions for a person ever to undergo this rite twice. I can attest to this unity: I was baptized in a Baptist church. During my adult life I have been Presbyterian, Lutheran, and Catholic, and no one ever suggested that my baptism was anything other than valid. We may take such unity for granted today, but there was a time in the early Church when it was seriously threatened.

Between A.D. 254 and 257, when St. Stephen was the bishop of Rome, the issue of what constitutes a valid Christian baptism arose in the Church. At the time, there were several heretical sects, among which were the Novatians. When people who had been baptized by clergy of the Novatians and other heretical sects desired admission to the Church, the question arose as to whether they ought to be re-baptized. We know about this debate from letters of St. Cyprian, the bishop of North Africa, and Firmilian, the bishop of Caesarea. St. Cyprian and Firmilian both insisted that these converts should be baptized, because what the heretics called _baptism_ was invalid. St. Cyprian was especially prolific on the subject and addressed it in many of his letters. The following excerpt is typical of his position:

Cyprian to Jubaianus his brother, greeting. You have written to me, dearest brother, wishing that the impression of my mind should be signified to you, as to what I think concerning the baptism of heretics; who, placed without, and established outside the Church, arrogate to themselves a matter neither within their right nor their power. This baptism we cannot consider as valid or legitimate, since it is manifestly unlawful among them . . . we established this same matter once more by our judgment, deciding that there is one baptism which is appointed in the Catholic Church; and that by this those are not re-baptized, but baptized by us, who at any time come from the adulterous and unhallowed water to be washed and sanctified by the truth of the saving water. (Epistle 72:1)

Firmilian, the bishop of Caesarea, was of the same mind as St. Cyprian on the matter:

Moreover, all other heretics, if they have separated themselves from the Church of God, can have nothing of power or of grace, since all power and grace are established in the Church where the elders preside, who possess the power both of baptizing, and of imposition of hands, and of ordaining. For as a heretic may not lawfully ordain nor lay on hands, so neither may he baptize, nor do any thing holily or spiritually, since he is an alien from spiritual and deifying sanctity. (Epistle 74:7)

*Peter Has Spoken*
Although no letters from St. Stephen have survived, we can surmise his position from communications between St. Cyprian and Firmilian. St. Stephen took the position that any baptism performed in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit was valid, regardless of the heretical status of the minister. A letter from Firmilian to St. Cyprian regarding St. Stephen’s decision reads:

That, moreover, is absurd, that they do not think it is to be inquired who was the person that baptized, for the reason that he who has been baptized may have obtained grace by the invocation of the Trinity, of the names of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost . . . But who in the Church is perfect and wise who can either defend or believe this, that this bare invocation of names is sufficient to the remission of sins and the sanctification of baptism; since these things are only then of advantage, when both he who baptizes has the Holy Spirit, and the baptism itself also is not ordained without the Spirit? But, say they, he who in any manner whatever is baptized without, may obtain the grace of baptism by his disposition and faith, which doubtless is ridiculous in itself, as if either a wicked disposition could attract to itself from heaven the sanctification of the righteous, or a false faith the truth of believers. (Epistle 74:9)

In the very same letter of Firmilian, we learn that St. Stephen asserted his authority as Peter’s successor to make this decision. The language clearly recalls Matthew 16:18, albeit sarcastically:

And in this respect I am justly indignant at this so open and manifest folly of Stephen, that he who so boasts of the place of his episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundations of the Church were laid, should introduce many other rocks and establish new buildings of many churches; maintaining that there is baptism in them by his authority . . . Stephen, who announces that he holds by succession the throne of Peter, is stirred with no zeal against heretics, when he concedes to them, not a moderate, but the very greatest power of grace: so far as to say and assert that, by the sacrament of baptism, the filth of the old man is washed away by them, that they pardon the former mortal sins, that they make sons of God by heavenly regeneration, and renew to eternal life by the sanctification of the divine layer. (Epistle 74:17)

*Dashed on the Rock*
St. Cyprian and Firmilian appeal copiously to Scripture in defense of their position. For example, in the following excerpt St. Cyprian sounds like a modern-day Protestant:

Let nothing be innovated, says [Stephen], nothing maintained, except what has been handed down. Whence is that tradition? Whether does it descend from the authority of the Lord and of the Gospel, or does it come from the commands and the epistles of the apostles? For that those things which are written must be done, God witnesses and admonishes, saying to Joshua the son of Nun: "The book of this law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate in it day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein." (Epistle 73:2)

And indeed, Firmilian seems to have no special reverence for Roman authority: "They who are at Rome do not observe those things in all cases which are handed down from the beginning, and vainly pretend the authority of the apostles" (Epistle 74:6).

Incredibly, in _The Shape of_ Sola Scriptura, Mathison cites the two preceding quotes from St. Cyprian and Firmilian as evidence that _sola scriptura_ was the guiding principle for the early Church Fathers. But these quotes are taken out of context from an argument in which St. Cyprian and Firmilian were _wrong_, according to the mainline Protestant position.

Moreover, according to Firmilian, St. Stephen stood alone:

Moreover, how great sin have you heaped up for yourself, when you cut yourself off from so many flocks! For it is yourself that you have cut off. Do not deceive yourself, since he is really the schismatic who has made himself an apostate from the communion of ecclesiastical unity. For while you think that all may be excommunicated by you, you have excommunicated yourself alone from all. (Epistle 74:24)

The Africans persisted in the practice of re-baptism, despite St. Stephen’s instruction. About 70 years later, in A.D. 314, a council of western bishops was convoked by Constantine at Arles. The primary purpose of the council was to deal with another heretical sect, the Donatists, but the council took the opportunity to direct the Africans to conform to Rome’s position on baptism (James T. Shotwell, _The See of Peter_, 482).

*Unworkable, Then and Now*
So on the issue of what constitutes valid Christian baptism, the facts are these:

1. There is no debate among Catholics and mainline Protestants as to what is orthodox.

2. St. Cyprian, Firmilian and others took the unorthodox position that the baptism of heretics and schismatics was invalid. They defended this position by appealing to (their interpretation of) Scripture over the authority of the Roman episcopate.

3. It was St. Stephen, the bishop of Rome from A.D. 254 to 257, who preserved orthodoxy by teaching the validity of any Trinitarian baptism. He asserted his authority as Peter’s successor to make this decision and enforce it under threat of excommunication.

St. Stephen’s decision must be the most underrated in Christian history, because we place our hope for Christian unity in our common baptism. Where would we be today if St. Cyprian and Firmilian had prevailed? Mainline Protestantism requires one to believe that Stephen indeed made a wise and scripturally sound decision on the issue of heretical baptism, but that he grossly misunderstood his authority as Peter’s successor to make and enforce that same decision. This is a difficult combination to reconcile.

St. Cyprian is a venerated saint for good reason—he loved God and his Word. From our post-Reformation perspective, it is easy to see St. Cyprian as the hard-liner in this debate. But his stance on the issue of baptism was motivated not by moral rigidity but by compassion. People who had been baptized by heretical clergy were truly distraught that they could not receive baptism in the one true Church. St. Cyprian shared their distress, and he wanted to give them an assurance of the forgiveness of their sins. But on this particular issue, he was wrong. That one as devout as St. Cyprian could make such a serious mistake should give pause to all thoughtful Christians.

And so we find that _sola scriptura_ did not work in the early Church any better than it has in the last 500 years, because it is unworkable.

All Christians should pray for the reunification of the Church. Is there any doubt that this is the will of our Father? Our disunity presents a cacophonous witness to the world exactly when they most need to hear the clear voice of our Savior through us. With this attitude of prayer and mutual respect, we must strive to understand one another’s beliefs, trusting that in gaining this understanding, God will not allow us to be persuaded by falsehood. If we do this, we will be ready to greet our Savior as one Holy Church when he returns.

*SIDEBAR*
*Views on Baptismal Unity*
The mainline Protestant position is well represented by the words of the Lutheran Confessions (_Triglot Concordia_): The Large Catechism: Of Baptism, Paragraphs 3, 52-53, 77-78, and _Apology of the Augsberg Confession_: Articles VII and VIII (Of the Church), paragraph 28.

The Catholic position is articulated in the _Catechism of the Catholic Church_, paragraphs 1271, 1278, and 1280.


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## kanozas

Question:  To the question of whether 'sola scriptura' is biblical or not, can you defend catholicism? ****PLEASE DO NOT QUOTE AND CREATE A NEW POST*******
https://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/SOLASCRI.TXT

Article is long but here's an excerpt.  Please click the link to read it in its entirety:
-----------------------------------------

Sola scriptura: A Blueprint for Anarchy

The Catholic case against sola scripture may be summarized by
saying that sola scripture is unhistorical, unbiblical and
unworkable.

by Patrick Madrid

Let's say I'm an Evangelical. When I find out you're Catholic, I'm
going to hammer you with Bible verses that I believe demonstrate
that the Catholic Church's teachings on issues such as purgatory,
Mary, the papacy, and the Eucharist are unbiblical. "The Bible
alone provides the totality of God's revealed truth that's
necessary for the Church to have. Forget about all those man-made
Catholic traditions (traditions which, by the way, are condemned
by Christ in Matthew 15:3-9 end Mark 7:6-8). Just go by the Bible
alone," I'll argue.

Let's say you're hip to this argument. You know that the
Protestant principle of the Bible alone-<sola scriptura>, as the
Reformers called it-is untrue. But you don't know how to
demonstrate that <sola scriptura> is not what Christ taught, it's
not what the apostles and Church Fathers taught and, most
ironically, it's not what the Bible itself teaches.

Catholics need to realize just how untenable <sola scriptura> is
and simply ask that it be proven from the Bible. Instead of
allowing himself to be put on the defensive when purgatory, the
Real Presence, or some other Catholic doctrine1 is challenged by a
demand that <it> be proven from Scripture, the Catholic should
ask, "Where does the Bible teach <sola scriptura>?"

The Catholic case against <sola scriptura> may be summarized by
saying that <sola scriptura> is unhistorical, unbiblical and
unworkable. This article will examine each of these points,
without claiming to offer an exhaustive historical and biblical
critique of the doctrine (there are a number of books and tape
sets which do that). Nevertheless, I hope the essential elements
of the Catholic case will be clear.

SOLA SCPIPTURA IS UNHISTORICAL

First, let's consider <sola scriptura> from the vantage point of
history.......<Link>


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## Lucia




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## Lucia




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## Lucia

kanozas said:


> Question:  To the question of whether 'sola scriptura' is biblical or not, can you defend catholicism?
> https://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/SOLASCRI.TXT
> 
> Article is long but here's an excerpt.  Please click the link to read it in its entirety:
> -----------------------------------------
> 
> Sola scriptura: A Blueprint for Anarchy
> 
> The Catholic case against sola scripture may be summarized by
> saying that sola scripture is unhistorical, unbiblical and
> unworkable.
> 
> by Patrick Madrid
> 
> Let's say I'm an Evangelical. When I find out you're Catholic, I'm
> going to hammer you with Bible verses that I believe demonstrate
> that the Catholic Church's teachings on issues such as purgatory,
> Mary, the papacy, and the Eucharist are unbiblical. "The Bible
> alone provides the totality of God's revealed truth that's
> necessary for the Church to have. Forget about all those man-made
> Catholic traditions (traditions which, by the way, are condemned
> by Christ in Matthew 15:3-9 end Mark 7:6-8). Just go by the Bible
> alone," I'll argue.
> 
> Let's say you're hip to this argument. You know that the
> Protestant principle of the Bible alone-<sola scriptura>, as the
> Reformers called it-is untrue. But you don't know how to
> demonstrate that <sola scriptura> is not what Christ taught, it's
> not what the apostles and Church Fathers taught and, most
> ironically, it's not what the Bible itself teaches.
> 
> Catholics need to realize just how untenable <sola scriptura> is
> and simply ask that it be proven from the Bible. Instead of
> allowing himself to be put on the defensive when purgatory, the
> Real Presence, or some other Catholic doctrine1 is challenged by a
> demand that <it> be proven from Scripture, the Catholic should
> ask, "Where does the Bible teach <sola scriptura>?"
> 
> The Catholic case against <sola scriptura> may be summarized by
> saying that <sola scriptura> is unhistorical, unbiblical and
> unworkable. This article will examine each of these points,
> without claiming to offer an exhaustive historical and biblical
> critique of the doctrine (there are a number of books and tape
> sets which do that). Nevertheless, I hope the essential elements
> of the Catholic case will be clear.
> 
> SOLA SCPIPTURA IS UNHISTORICAL
> 
> First, let's consider <sola scriptura> from the vantage point of
> history.......<Link>



Long reads 2posts ^^^  very informative I'm still reading it day 2, what a great resource thanks for posting.


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## Lucia

Ladies I put an index in the first post to categorize all the topics in here so we can find info a little easier. Any suggestions? 
Tia


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## Lucia

kanozas said:


> *Question:*  Why do  catholics pray to saints (ask for intercession)?  Here's an answer:
> 
> http://www.st-george-medal.com/St-George-Prayer.htm
> 
> *The intercession of saints* is a common Christian doctrine for the majority of Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Anglican churches back to the time of the earliest church. While fundamentalists often challenge the practice of asking prayer intercession the Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray for us.
> 
> "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (*Ps. 103:20-21*). The opening verses of Psalms 148 "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!"
> 
> "The twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8).
> 
> "Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us" (*1 Tim. 2:1-4*).
> 
> The early Church Fathers clearly recognized that those in heaven can and do intercede for us. They applied this biblical teaching in their daily prayer.
> 
> "A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers" (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).
> 
> "At the Lord's table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps" (Homilies on John 84 [A.D. 416]).
> 
> A patron is chosen by election as a special intercessor with God and is honored by clergy and people in special forms of religious observance. The term 'patron' must have the rank of a canonized saint be it applied to a church, a district, a country or a corporation.



Adding

https://www.openbible.info/topics/intercession



*100 Bible Verses about Intercession*


*1 Timothy 2:1 ESV / 173 helpful votes *
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,

*James 5:14-20 ESV / 112 helpful votes *
Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again, and heaven gave rain, and the earth bore its fruit. ...

*Ephesians 6:18 ESV / 63 helpful votes *
Praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,

*1 Thessalonians 1:2 ESV / 62 helpful votes *
We give thanks to God always for all of you, constantly mentioning you in our prayers,

*Romans 8:26 ESV / 56 helpful votes *
Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.

*Ezekiel 22:30 ESV / 52 helpful votes *
And I sought for a man among them who should build up the wall and stand in the breach before me for the land, that I should not destroy it, but I found none.

*Numbers 21:7 ESV / 46 helpful votes *
And the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you. Pray to the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.

*Hebrews 7:25 ESV / 43 helpful votes *
Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

*2 Thessalonians 3:1 ESV / 33 helpful votes *
Finally, brothers, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may speed ahead and be honored, as happened among you,

*Isaiah 59:16-17 ESV / 31 helpful votes *
He saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no one to intercede; then his own arm brought him salvation, and his righteousness upheld him. He put on righteousness as a breastplate, and a helmet of salvation on his head; he put on garments of vengeance for clothing, and wrapped himself in zeal as a cloak.

*Philemon 1:4-6 ESV / 30 helpful votes *
I thank my God always when I remember you in my prayers, because I hear of your love and of the faith that you have toward the Lord Jesus and for all the saints, and I pray that the sharing of your faith may become effective for the full knowledge of every good thing that is in us for the sake of Christ.

*Ephesians 3:14-19 ESV / 30 helpful votes *
For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, ...

*Matthew 5:44 ESV / 29 helpful votes *
But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

*1 Samuel 12:23 ESV / 29 helpful votes *
Moreover, as for me, far be it from me that I should sin against the Lord by ceasing to pray for you, and I will instruct you in the good and the right way.

*Jeremiah 29:7 ESV / 26 helpful votes *
But seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the Lord on its behalf, for in its welfare you will find your welfare.

*1 Peter 2:5 ESV / 25 helpful votes *
You yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

*Daniel 9:3-19 ESV / 25 helpful votes *
Then I turned my face to the Lord God, seeking him by prayer and pleas for mercy with fasting and sackcloth and ashes. I prayed to the Lord my God and made confession, saying, “O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, we have sinned and done wrong and acted wickedly and rebelled, turning aside from your commandments and rules. We have not listened to your servants the prophets, who spoke in your name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land. To you, O Lord, belongs righteousness, but to us open shame, as at this day, to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to all Israel, those who are near and those who are far away, in all the lands to which you have driven them, because of the treachery that they have committed against you. ...

*1 Thessalonians 5:25 ESV / 22 helpful votes *
Brothers, pray for us.

*1 Samuel 25:23-35 ESV / 22 helpful votes *
When Abigail saw David, she hurried and got down from the donkey and fell before David on her face and bowed to the ground. She fell at his feet and said, “On me alone, my lord, be the guilt. Please let your servant speak in your ears, and hear the words of your servant. Let not my lord regard this worthless fellow, Nabal, for as his name is, so is he. Nabal is his name, and folly is with him. But I your servant did not see the young men of my lord, whom you sent. Now then, my lord, as the Lord lives, and as your soul lives, because the Lord has restrained you from bloodguilt and from saving with your own hand, now then let your enemies and those who seek to do evil to my lord be as Nabal. And now let this present that your servant has brought to my lord be given to the young men who follow my lord. ...

*1 John 5:16 ESV / 20 helpful votes *
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.

*1 Timothy 2:2 ESV / 20 helpful votes *
For kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.

*2 Thessalonians 3:16 ESV / 19 helpful votes *
Now may the Lord of peace himself give you peace at all times in every way. The Lord be with you all.

*1 Kings 8:45 ESV / 19 helpful votes *
Then hear in heaven their prayer and their plea, and maintain their cause.

*Numbers 12:13 ESV / 19 helpful votes *
And Moses cried to the Lord, “O God, please heal her—please.”

*2 Thessalonians 3:5 ESV / 18 helpful votes *
May the Lord direct your hearts to the love of God and to the steadfastness of Christ.

*Colossians 1:9 ESV / 18 helpful votes *
And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,

*Colossians 1:3 ESV / 18 helpful votes *
We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,

*Isaiah 62:7 ESV / 18 helpful votes *
And give him no rest until he establishes Jerusalem and makes it a praise in the earth.

*Psalm 125:4 ESV / 17 helpful votes *
Do good, O Lord, to those who are good, and to those who are upright in their hearts!

*2 Corinthians 1:11 ESV / 16 helpful votes *
You also must help us by prayer, so that many will give thanks on our behalf for the blessing granted us through the prayers of many.

*1 Timothy 2:8 ESV / 15 helpful votes *
I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling;

*Revelation 8:3 ESV / 14 helpful votes *
And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne,

*Jeremiah 5:1 ESV / 14 helpful votes *
Run to and fro through the streets of Jerusalem, look and take note! Search her squares to see if you can find a man, one who does justice and seeks truth, that I may pardon her.

*Psalm 122:6 ESV / 14 helpful votes *
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem! “May they be secure who love you!

*Revelation 8:4 ESV / 12 helpful votes *
And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.

*Hebrews 13:21 ESV / 12 helpful votes *
Equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in us that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

*Hebrews 13:18 ESV / 12 helpful votes *
Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honorably in all things.

*2 Timothy 1:3 ESV / 12 helpful votes *
I thank God whom I serve, as did my ancestors, with a clear conscience, as I remember you constantly in my prayers night and day.

*Psalm 134:3 ESV / 11 helpful votes *
May the Lord bless you from Zion, he who made heaven and earth!

*Mark 6:55 ESV / 10 helpful votes *
And ran about the whole region and began to bring the sick people on their beds to wherever they heard he was.

*Isaiah 64:8-12 ESV / 10 helpful votes *
But now, O Lord, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the work of your hand. Be not so terribly angry, O Lord, and remember not iniquity forever. Behold, please look, we are all your people. Your holy cities have become a wilderness; Zion has become a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation. Our holy and beautiful house, where our fathers praised you, has been burned by fire, and all our pleasant places have become ruins. Will you restrain yourself at these things, O Lord? Will you keep silent, and afflict us so terribly?

*1 Samuel 2:25 ESV / 10 helpful votes *
If someone sins against a man, God will mediate for him, but if someone sins against the Lord, who can intercede for him?” But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for it was the will of the Lord to put them to death.

*Numbers 6:23-26 ESV / 10 helpful votes *
“Speak to Aaron and his sons, saying, Thus you shall bless the people of Israel: you shall say to them, The Lordbless you and keep you; the Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace.

*Revelation 5:8 ESV / 9 helpful votes *
And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

*Psalm 80:19 ESV / 9 helpful votes *
Restore us, O Lord God of hosts! Let your face shine, that we may be saved!

*1 Samuel 1:17 ESV / 9 helpful votes *
Then Eli answered, “Go in peace, and the God of Israel grant your petition that you have made to him.”

*Numbers 14:11-20 ESV / 9 helpful votes *
And the Lord said to Moses, “How long will this people despise me? And how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs that I have done among them? I will strike them with the pestilence and disinherit them, and I will make of you a nation greater and mightier than they.” But Moses said to the Lord, “Then the Egyptians will hear of it, for you brought up this people in your might from among them, and they will tell the inhabitants of this land. They have heard that you, O Lord, are in the midst of this people. For you, O Lord, are seen face to face, and your cloud stands over them and you go before them, in a pillar of cloud by day and in a pillar of fire by night. Now if you kill this people as one man, then the nations who have heard your fame will say, ...

*1 Thessalonians 3:10 ESV / 8 helpful votes *
As we pray most earnestly night and day that we may see you face to face and supply what is lacking in your faith?

*Philippians 1:10 ESV / 8 helpful votes *
So that you may approve what is excellent, and so be pure and blameless for the day of Christ,

*Philippians 1:3-5 ESV / 8 helpful votes *
I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, always in every prayer of mine for you all making my prayer with joy, because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now.

*Ephesians 1:15-19 ESV / 8 helpful votes *
For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might

*Romans 1:9 ESV / 8 helpful votes *
For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I mention you

*Isaiah 53:1-12 ESV / 8 helpful votes *
Who has believed what he has heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. ...

*Esther 4:1-17 ESV / 8 helpful votes *
When Mordecai learned all that had been done, Mordecai tore his clothes and put on sackcloth and ashes, and went out into the midst of the city, and he cried out with a loud and bitter cry. He went up to the entrance of the king's gate, for no one was allowed to enter the king's gate clothed in sackcloth. And in every province, wherever the king's command and his decree reached, there was great mourning among the Jews, with fasting and weeping and lamenting, and many of them lay in sackcloth and ashes. When Esther's young women and her eunuchs came and told her, the queen was deeply distressed. She sent garments to clothe Mordecai, so that he might take off his sackcloth, but he would not accept them. Then Esther called for Hathach, one of the king's eunuchs, who had been appointed to attend her, and ordered him to go to Mordecai to learn what this was and why it was. ...

*1 John 4:1 ESV / 7 helpful votes *
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

*Hebrews 13:20 ESV / 7 helpful votes *
Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant,

*2 Thessalonians 2:17 ESV / 7 helpful votes *
Comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.

*1 Thessalonians 3:12 ESV / 7 helpful votes *
And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love for one another and for all, as we do for you,

*Colossians 4:12 ESV / 7 helpful votes *
Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ Jesus, greets you, always struggling on your behalf in his prayers, that you may stand mature and fully assured in all the will of God.

*Philippians 1:9 ESV / 7 helpful votes *
And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment,

*2 Corinthians 13:7 ESV / 7 helpful votes *
But we pray to God that you may not do wrong—not that we may appear to have met the test, but that you may do what is right, though we may seem to have failed.

*2 Corinthians 9:10 ESV / 7 helpful votes *
He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness.

*Acts 20:32 ESV / 7 helpful votes *
And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

*Acts 8:15 ESV / 7 helpful votes *
Who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit,

*Luke 22:32 ESV / 7 helpful votes *
But I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.”

*Matthew 8:5-13 ESV / 7 helpful votes *
When he entered Capernaum, a centurion came forward to him, appealing to him, “Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, suffering terribly.” And he said to him, “I will come and heal him.” But the centurion replied, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof, but only say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I too am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. And I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes, and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” ...

*Isaiah 62:6 ESV / 7 helpful votes *
On your walls, O Jerusalem, I have set watchmen; all the day and all the night they shall never be silent. You who put the Lord in remembrance, take no rest,

*Isaiah 62:1 ESV / 7 helpful votes *
For Zion's sake I will not keep silent, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not be quiet, until her righteousness goes forth as brightness, and her salvation as a burning torch.

*Psalm 80:2 ESV / 7 helpful votes *
Before Ephraim and Benjamin and Manasseh, stir up your might and come to save us!

*1 Samuel 7:5-8 ESV / 7 helpful votes *
Then Samuel said, “Gather all Israel at Mizpah, and I will pray to the Lord for you.” So they gathered at Mizpah and drew water and poured it out before the Lord and fasted on that day and said there, “We have sinned against the Lord.” And Samuel judged the people of Israel at Mizpah. Now when the Philistines heard that the people of Israel had gathered at Mizpah, the lords of the Philistines went up against Israel. And when the people of Israel heard of it, they were afraid of the Philistines. And the people of Israel said to Samuel, “Do not cease to cry out to the Lord our God for us, that he may save us from the hand of the Philistines.”

*Numbers 27:16 ESV / 7 helpful votes *
“Let the Lord, the God of the spirits of all flesh, appoint a man over the congregation

*Numbers 16:46-50 ESV / 7 helpful votes *
And Moses said to Aaron, “Take your censer, and put fire on it from off the altar and lay incense on it and carry it quickly to the congregation and make atonement for them, for wrath has gone out from the Lord; the plague has begun.” So Aaron took it as Moses said and ran into the midst of the assembly. And behold, the plague had already begun among the people. And he put on the incense and made atonement for the people. And he stood between the dead and the living, and the plague was stopped. Now those who died in the plague were 14,700, besides those who died in the affair of Korah. And Aaron returned to Moses at the entrance of the tent of meeting, when the plague was stopped.

*Numbers 11:1 ESV / 7 helpful votes *
And the people complained in the hearing of the Lord about their misfortunes, and when the Lord heard it, his anger was kindled, and the fire of the Lord burned among them and consumed some outlying parts of the camp.

*Numbers 10:35 ESV / 7 helpful votes *
And whenever the ark set out, Moses said, “Arise, O Lord, and let your enemies be scattered, and let those who hate you flee before you.”

*Philemon 1:10-21 ESV / 6 helpful votes *
I appeal to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I became in my imprisonment. (Formerly he was useless to you, but now he is indeed useful to you and to me.) I am sending him back to you, sending my very heart. I would have been glad to keep him with me, in order that he might serve me on your behalf during my imprisonment for the gospel, but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own accord. ...

*2 Thessalonians 2:16 ESV / 6 helpful votes *
Now may our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father, who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace,

*Ephesians 6:19 ESV / 6 helpful votes *
And also for me, that words may be given to me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel,

*Galatians 6:16 ESV / 6 helpful votes *
And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

*Galatians 1:3 ESV / 6 helpful votes *
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,

*2 Corinthians 9:14 ESV / 6 helpful votes *
While they long for you and pray for you, because of the surpassing grace of God upon you.

*1 Corinthians 1:3 ESV / 6 helpful votes *
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

*John 4:49 ESV / 6 helpful votes *
The official said to him, “Sir, come down before my child dies.”

*John 4:47 ESV / 6 helpful votes *
When this man heard that Jesus had come from Judea to Galilee, he went to him and asked him to come down and heal his son, for he was at the point of death.

*Luke 5:18-20 ESV / 6 helpful votes *
And behold, some men were bringing on a bed a man who was paralyzed, and they were seeking to bring him in and lay him before Jesus, but finding no way to bring him in, because of the crowd, they went up on the roof and let him down with his bed through the tiles into the midst before Jesus. And when he saw their faith, he said, “Man, your sins are forgiven you.”

*Luke 4:39 ESV / 6 helpful votes *
And he stood over her and rebuked the fever, and it left her, and immediately she rose and began to serve them.

*Mark 6:56 ESV / 6 helpful votes *
And wherever he came, in villages, cities, or countryside, they laid the sick in the marketplaces and implored him that they might touch even the fringe of his garment. And as many as touched it were made well.

*Mark 2:3 ESV / 6 helpful votes *
And they came, bringing to him a paralytic carried by four men.

*Job 9:33 ESV / 6 helpful votes *
There is no arbiter between us, who might lay his hand on us both.

*Nehemiah 1:4-9 ESV / 6 helpful votes *
As soon as I heard these words I sat down and wept and mourned for days, and I continued fasting and praying before the God of heaven. And I said, “O Lord God of heaven, the great and awesome God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, let your ear be attentive and your eyes open, to hear the prayer of your servant that I now pray before you day and night for the people of Israel your servants, confessing the sins of the people of Israel, which we have sinned against you. Even I and my father's house have sinned. We have acted very corruptly against you and have not kept the commandments, the statutes, and the rules that you commanded your servant Moses. Remember the word that you commanded your servant Moses, saying, ‘If you are unfaithful, I will scatter you among the peoples, ...

*Numbers 27:17 ESV / 6 helpful votes *
Who shall go out before them and come in before them, who shall lead them out and bring them in, that the congregation of the Lord may not be as sheep that have no shepherd.”

*Numbers 21:4-9 ESV / 6 helpful votes *
From Mount Hor they set out by the way to the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom. And the people became impatient on the way. And the people spoke against God and against Moses, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we loathe this worthless food.” Then the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. And the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you. Pray to the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. And the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent and set it on a pole, and everyone who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” ...

*Numbers 16:20-22 ESV / 6 helpful votes *
And the Lord spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying, “Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment.” And they fell on their faces and said, “O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and will you be angry with all the congregation?”

*Numbers 14:11-21 ESV / 6 helpful votes *
And the Lord said to Moses, “How long will this people despise me? And how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs that I have done among them? I will strike them with the pestilence and disinherit them, and I will make of you a nation greater and mightier than they.” But Moses said to the Lord, “Then the Egyptians will hear of it, for you brought up this people in your might from among them, and they will tell the inhabitants of this land. They have heard that you, O Lord, are in the midst of this people. For you, O Lord, are seen face to face, and your cloud stands over them and you go before them, in a pillar of cloud by day and in a pillar of fire by night. Now if you kill this people as one man, then the nations who have heard your fame will say, ...

*Exodus 8:12 ESV / 6 helpful votes *
So Moses and Aaron went out from Pharaoh, and Moses cried to the Lord about the frogs, as he had agreed with Pharaoh.

*2 Timothy 1:18 ESV / 5 helpful votes *
May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day!—and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus.

*Luke 4:38 ESV / 5 helpful votes *
And he arose and left the synagogue and entered Simon's house. Now Simon's mother-in-law was ill with a high fever, and they appealed to him on her behalf.

*Psalm 85:1-7 ESV / 5 helpful votes *
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of the Sons of Korah. Lord, you were favorable to your land; you restored the fortunes of Jacob. You forgave the iniquity of your people; you covered all their sin. Selah You withdrew all your wrath; you turned from your hot anger. Restore us again, O God of our salvation, and put away your indignation toward us! Will you be angry with us forever? Will you prolong your anger to all generations? ...

*Exodus 34:9 ESV / 5 helpful votes *
And he said, “If now I have found favor in your sight, O Lord, please let the Lord go in the midst of us, for it is a stiff-necked people, and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for your inheritance.”

*Exodus 33:12-23 ESV / 5 helpful votes *
Moses said to the Lord, “See, you say to me, ‘Bring up this people,’ but you have not let me know whom you will send with me. Yet you have said, ‘I know you by name, and you have also found favor in my sight.’ Now therefore, if I have found favor in your sight, please show me now your ways, that I may know you in order to find favor in your sight. Consider too that this nation is your people.” And he said, “My presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.” And he said to him, “If your presence will not go with me, do not bring us up from here. For how shall it be known that I have found favor in your sight, I and your people? Is it not in your going with us, so that we are distinct, I and your people, from every other people on the face of the earth?” ...

*Exodus 3:1-6 ESV / 4 helpful votes *
Now Moses was keeping the flock of his father-in-law, Jethro, the priest of Midian, and he led his flock to the west side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush was burning, yet it was not consumed. And Moses said, “I will turn aside to see this great sight, why the bush is not burned.” When the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called to him out of the bush, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.” Then he said, “Do not come near; take your sandals off your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.” ...


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## kanozas

I'm about to start a novena this evening and came across this.  I'd seen it before but just glossed over it.  I didn't note that the disciples and Our Lady were told by Jesus to go and pray, I just assumed that's what they just did.  9 days....novena.  Interesting.  Learn something new daily.  Anyhoo, there are several novenas included with full instructions as well as a sign-up to link to their prayer posting site and other features like joining them in prayer:

http://www.praymorenovenas.com/how-to-pray-a-novena/


Also, if you can just read some of the comments under whichever you desire to pray, you will find the prayers of many others.  Will bring you to tears.  So many needs in this world.  Please add their intentions to your prayers.  G-d bless each one who reads and considers these prayers.



*How to Pray A Novena*
*What is a Novena?*
The word novena is taken from “novem,” the Latin word for nine. A novena is made up of nine days of prayer and meditation usually to ask God for special prayer requests or petitions. Novenas are often used to ask specific saints to pray for us. The Saint Jude Novena, for example, is prayed to ask Saint Jude to intercede on behalf of a request that seems especially dire.

Novenas are an ancient tradition that goes back to the days of the Apostles. Jesus told His disciples to pray together after His ascension into heaven, so they went to an upper room along with the Blessed Virgin Mary, (Acts 1:14) and joined constantly in prayer for nine days. These nine days of constant prayer by the Apostles at the direction of Jesus led up to Pentecost. This is when the Holy Spirit descended upon the disciples as “tongues of fire” (Acts 2:1-4). This pattern of 9 days of prayer is the basis the novenas we pray today.

Thus, the novena is an imitation of the Lord’s command to the Apostles when they prayed for 9 days in anticipation of the coming of the Holy Spirit.

*How do I pray a Novena?*
If you sign up here, we will send you the announcement for each novena, a reminder, and the daily prayers for the 9 days of the novena. We will also send you an e-mail on the feast day or last day of the novena, as well as share answered prayers with you from other people in the community.

All you need to do is to say the daily prayers with a sincere heart. It is not necessary to pray at the same time every day (although you can), or to fast, or to pray the rosary in addition to the novena; however, you can still do all of these things in addition to praying, but they are not required. If they are, we will tell you in our e-mails.

Novenas should not be seen as magical incantations that guarantee desired results. God controls the universe and we certainly do not control God. He is not a genie in a bottle, but rather He is a loving Father in heaven. This means that whatever good intentions we pray for, we must accept the fact that God knows what’s best for us, whether we understand His divine intention or not. “Thy will be done” is the proper posture of all Christian prayer. Any so-called novena prayer circulating around that contains guaranteed results, and threatening misfortune for those who fail to devote themselves to it is merely a chain-letter; these should be ignored.

Nonetheless, Jesus reminds us in the Gospel to be persistent in prayer and a novena is a great aid in doing just that!

*What if I miss a day?*
That’s okay, it happens! If you a miss a day, you can do one of a few things…

You can either: 1) skip the day you missed altogether, 2) say two of the daily prayers in one day to catch up, or 3) say the prayer of the day you missed and just be one day behind everybody else.

It’s up to you, and whatever you choose to do is okay. There are “rules” and there are no “consequences.” God is forgiving and merciful!


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## kanozas

I don't remember where I put the others in this shuffle of threads but here's *No. 17.10* of the lecture series on the Eucharist.  

http://www.hebrewcatholic.net/17-10-errors-concerning-transubstantiation/

"Errors Concerning Transubstantiation"


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## Lucia

End of article 

The modern arguments in favor of homosexuality have thus been insufficient to overcome the evidence that homosexual behavior is against divine and natural law, as the Bible and the Church, as well as the wider circle of Jewish and Christian (not to mention Muslim) writers, have always held. 

The Catholic Church thus teaches: "Basing itself on sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved" (_Catechism of the Catholic Church_ 2357). 

However, the Church also acknowledges that "[homosexuality’s] psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. . . . The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s cross the difficulties that they may encounter from their condition. 

"Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection" (CCC 2357– 2359). 

Paul comfortingly reminds us, "No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it" (1 Cor. 10:13). 

Homosexuals who want to live chastely can contact _Courage_, a national, Church-approved support group for help in deliverance from the homosexual lifestyle. 

_Courage, _
Church of St. John the Baptist 
210 W. 31st St., New York, NY 10001 

(212) 268–1010 
Web: http://couragerc.net


Full article here 

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/homosexuality


----------



## kanozas

This is confusing where to post.  Anyhoo:


Question:

During Mass this evening, I had a thought about eucharistic vessels and what happens to them immediately after Mass.  Are they washed?  Who polishes them?  What about microscopic pieces residue of Christ's body and blood?  Strange question, yeah lol.  I am wondering.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

kanozas said:


> This is confusing where to post.  Anyhoo:
> 
> 
> Question:
> 
> During Mass this evening, I had a thought about eucharistic vessels and what happens to them immediately after Mass.  Are they washed?  Who polishes them?  What about microscopic pieces residue of Christ's body and blood?  Strange question, yeah lol.  I am wondering.



I remember reading that there is a special sink/drain for washing the chalice and paten. Since they add water to the chalice, swirl it around and drink it after the Eucharist there probably aren't many particles left.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

What happened to the Catholic random thoughts thread?


----------



## kanozas

Belle Du Jour said:


> What happened to the Catholic random thoughts thread?




?????  I was trying to find it.  I think our search feature was down for a little bit as well.  Sometimes, you want to post random thoughts, not formal questions/answers.  I know that my communication about merging some was just a suggestion and not a request at all.  I can't speak for everybody here.  I wish they would have let us know before doing that.


----------



## kanozas

Belle Du Jour said:


> I remember reading that there is a special sink/drain for washing the chalice and paten. Since they add water to the chalice, swirl it around and drink it after the Eucharist there probably aren't many particles left.




Yeah, that's what I was thinking.  But then again, all those mouths on it.  Haha.  And someone has to be polishing it. What happends to the special sink/drain?  Does someone drink the water from that runoff?  One time at mass, there was a host on the floor...just setting there.  People kept walking by it.  Eventually, the priest picked it up.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

kanozas said:


> Yeah, that's what I was thinking.  But then again, all those mouths on it.  Haha.  And someone has to be polishing it. What happends to the special sink/drain?  Does someone drink the water from that runoff?  One time at mass, there was a host on the floor...just setting there.  People kept walking by it.  Eventually, the priest picked it up.



I think it's okay if it goes directly to the ground/earth.  I think you're supposed to bury sacramentals not throw them in the trash.  

Can't believe that a host was just lying on the floor...I think of this story Fulton Sheen liked to tell.
http://www.sign.org/articles/how-a-young-chinese-girl


----------



## Belle Du Jour

kanozas said:


> ?????  I was trying to find it.  I think our search feature was down for a little bit as well.  Sometimes, you want to post random thoughts, not formal questions/answers.  I know that my communication about merging some was just a suggestion and not a request at all.  I can't speak for everybody here.  I wish they would have let us know before doing that.



Apparently one of my posts was moved there but the thread can't be found...


----------



## kanozas

Belle Du Jour said:


> Apparently one of my posts was moved there but the thread can't be found...




I know the newer Q&A moves posts.  There was so much good information int he Cath. RT.  Hate to see it lost.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

kanozas said:


> I know the newer Q&A moves posts.  There was so much good information int he Cath. RT.  Hate to see it lost.



Hopefully the whole thread didn't go "poof." I don't understand the reason for that.


----------



## kanozas

That's just it, the CCC is *FAR* from *secular* thought.  People kick off at the junction about psychology and chemical biological imbalances despite the evidence that brain function is affected by those imbalances and likewise, just as they do when it comes to mental illness - pretending it is not there and that G-d doesn't use doctors,  whom He gave the talent of healing, to assist them in overcoming the many psychological hurdles in life.  If people would genuinely read that which they oppose blindly, they might find more similarity than difference.  But then again, lets' consider all *proclivities* of the "saved":

-heterosexual fornication
-those leaning towards theft
-liars
-thieves
-gossipers
-all the vices of men who are saved (counting past sin no. 2, fully aware and willing to commit it)

If they say, "I've sinned, forgive me...but it's still something I struggle with,"  there is not only heavenly forgiveness, there is the congregational forgiveness until it's someone gay.  Incredible.

I guess those who've committed any sexual sin past the first is going to hell because he still feels tempted by that which he's developed a proclivity to.  Well, and so is the former bank robber fighting that temptation, the liar, the.....all going to hell for being themselves because sin begins in the heart.  But, then, do we comprehend the nature of sin and even forgiveness?  For as surely as the person fighting the temptation of homosexual sin is going to hell,  he will be accompanied by all the other saved/sinners fighting their personal temptations.  Remember, they committed it twice, even though they repented, they still feel temptation to sin. Reprobate minds don't begin and end with gays.  So, i*t doesn't matter that they didn't commit the sin, they had a passing thought about it and thus, they are going to hell because, regarding sex, all extra-marital sex is against G-d's order of nature.  That's totally biblical because I feel it in my heart....NOT. * The CCC was rightfully and correctly cited regarding the disordered nature of it (proclivity, I suppose) and how they are to behave and how we are to treat them with respect and love as with any other _believer_.  It, in no way, is condoning sin.  One is not held guilty of passing thoughts, only lustful thoughts you entertain.  There is certainly some grey area where, for whichever reason, their psychology is the way it is, including a natural affinity for the "wrong sex."  Love itself is not wrong.   Lust is wrong.  We are not talking about love, we are talking about "lust" being the sin which differs greatly.

Maybe it is a matter of understanding others?  I don't totally, no.  I can imagine.  It's kind of like the person who messaged me once saying they now knew why I liked Frida Kahlo's paintings.  Um, no, you don't.  I like them because I understand them and comprehend motherhood, the female body, love of a man and the pains of being a woman loving a man... even miscarriages.  Rivera and Kahlo were many things that don't agree with my view of life but people still should not project.   They likewise should not take more out of this discussion than what is presented because to do so would demonstrate that they simply do not know me.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Today is the feast of the Visitation!  Let us be like our Blessed Mother and bring Christ to others through our service and kindnesd.


----------



## Lucia

Fr Mitch Pacwa and Paul Thigpin writer of Spiritual warfare books 

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast...s.net/download/ewtn/audiolibrary/ELI02895.mp3


----------



## Lucia

So I think the big deal about sin of the heart or mind comes from

Matt 5:8
you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

*So isn't lust an act? As in already entertaining the sinful thought and acting it out in ones heart and mind. If that's the case then just being tempted is not enough to count as sin.
Ladies chime in on where this distinction is  please TIA

When people are tempted the enemy will tempt each person differently, because each person has their own weakness.
Now is being tempted a sin? No the Bible clearly states that we will be tempted. (By any means necessary by our adversary)

1Cor 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

But the enemy and his minions can and will make use of any images feelings memeries and tactics he can to cause us to entertain sin and then act upon it.
Does everyone who gets tempted fall into that sin? No
Does everyone who entertains sin commit that sin? No but they are more inclined through constant entertaining of that sin in their mind and hearts to commit that particular sin.

Here's the fine line:
As fellow humans and sinners in his world how would we ever claim know with certainty what is in a mans heart regarding sin.

IMO we humans only partially know when we see the rotten fruit or the acts of sin we cannot know what's in a mans heart only God knows.


----------



## Lucia

Morning /daily offerings

http://www.catholiccompany.com/morning-offering/2016-06-02/

http://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=131


----------



## kanozas

Lucia said:


> Fr Mitch Pacwa and Paul Thigpin writer of Spiritual warfare books




Father Mitch had a seizure or heart attack like last month or so.  Have you heard how he's getting along?


----------



## kanozas

True.  In confession, any priest will tell you that - that not all thoughts are yours as sinful but those you entertain.  We still don't know the genesis of a certain persuasion.


----------



## Lucia

kanozas said:


> Father Mitch had a seizure or heart attack like last month or so.  Have you heard how he's getting along?



I did hear he was recuperating and doing better

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/kateohare/2016/04/ewtns-father-mitch-pacwa-survives-a-heart-attack/

Update for May
He's back at ewtn

https://m.facebook.com/FrMitchPacwaSJ/posts/10156857439285392


https://mobile.twitter.com/frmitchpacwasj?lang=en


----------



## Belle Du Jour

@Shimmie where is the Catholic random thoughts thread?


----------



## kanozas

@Shimmie

There's also another Q&A that transfers posts to one on articles and references and such.  Since we don't have a sticky section, we were trying to figure out ways to post to keep track of where these articles, references and questions/answers were.  It doesn't mean we want to be limited in posting.   Couldn't we have been communicated with regarding deleting our threads?  Unfortunately, we have now lost a wealth of information.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

kanozas said:


> @Shimmie
> 
> There's also another Q&A that transfers posts to one on articles and references and such.  Since we don't have a sticky section, we were trying to figure out ways to post to keep track of where these articles, references and questions/answers were.  It doesn't mean we want to be limited in posting.   Couldn't we have been communicated with regarding deleting our threads?  Unfortunately, we have now lost a wealth of information.



I refuse to believe that that thread was deleted without cause.  Nope, not gonna believe it.  Hopefully Shimmie will provide us an explanation.


----------



## kanozas

Has anybody seen this one yet?  I didn't know about it from the 90's.  

https://longhaircareforum.com/search/4774003/?q=for+catholics&t=post&o=relevance

*A Marian apparition has been approved in Argentina - and it's a big deal*






tatue of Mary. Credit: Myibean via www.shutterstock.com. 

Buenos Aires, Argentina, Jun 4, 2016 / 05:11 am (CNA).-

What began with glowing rosaries and the rediscovery of a statue of the Virgin Mary in Argentina has now been approved by the local bishop as a series of apparitions that are “of supernational origin” and worthy of belief.

And the designation is deeply significant, recognizing the messages of Our Lady of the Rosary of San Nicolas, which exhort peace and give dire warnings, one miracle researcher says.

Bishop Hector Cardelli of San Nicolas in Argentina’s Buenos Aires province made the announcement May 22 at the conclusion of a Mass during the well-attended pilgrimage to the Shrine of Our Lady of the Rosary of San Nicolas.

The bishop has investigated the contents of the apparitions through 1990.

“(I)n my twelfth year of pastoring San Nicolas and, having followed with faith and responsibility the Marian events that I have known about since the very beginning, I have reached the decision to recognize them for my diocese,” Bishop Hector said.

“I recognize the supernatural nature of the happy events with which God through his beloved daughter, Jesus through his Most Holy Mother, the Holy Spirit through his beloved spouse, has desired to lovingly manifest himself in our diocese.”

Michael O’Neil, a miracle researcher and author who runs the website MiracleHunter.com, told CNA that the approval is significant. It means that the messages from the apparitions are not only approved for the faithful to read, he explained: the bishop is saying the events were in fact actual miraculous apparitions.

“That puts it on par with Lourdes, Fatima and Guadalupe,” O’Neil said

The apparitions began after some rosaries in homes throughout San Nicolas de los Arroyos in Buenos Aires Province began to glow without any explanation.

A wife and mother named Gladys Quiroga de Motta saw these glowing rosaries and began to pray to the Virgin Mary. The Virgin appeared to her on Sept. 25, carrying the infant Jesus and wearing a blue gown and veil. Her figure glowed with light.

With only a fourth-grade education, Gladys had no great knowledge of the Bible or theology. She is a mother of two daughters and a grandmother.  

At various times, the Virgin Mary apparition referred the woman to several Bible verses. One month after the first appearance, the apparition gave Gladys a white rosary and said, “Receive this Rosary from my hands and keep it forever and ever. You are obedient; I am happy because of it. Rejoice, for God is with you.”

The Virgin Mary asked Gladys to go look for a statue that had been blessed by a Pope and was forgotten away in a church. She found the statue on Nov. 27, 1983. It was in the belfry of the diocesan cathedral.

The statue in question was of the Mother of God holding the Child Jesus. It had been brought from Rome after it was blessed by Pope Leo XIII. Following the Virgin’s instructions, it was found in the bell tower of the church. The statue resembled the apparition.

Gladys also received 68 visits and messages from Jesus.

According to reports, Gladys shared the apparitions’ messages from the beginning. She was always at the disposal of the church authorities. Gladys now lives a life of great devotion, always keeping a low profile. She reportedly received the stigmata on her wrists, feet, side and shoulder.

There have been several documented healings related to the apparitions, including the healing of a boy with a brain tumor.

Gladys has shared about 1,800 messages from the Virgin Mary, O’Neil said. Many focus on topics like peace, repentance, returning to the sacraments, and drawing people closer to Christ. But there are also messages in an apocalyptic theme, predicting great turmoil for humanity ahead.

“So that’s the tricky part with all of this,” O’Neil said. “It’s not as simple as some of the other apparitions that just draw people closer to Christ… there are some dire warnings as well.”

Father René Laurentin, an expert on Marian apparitions, recounted the apparitions’ messages in his book, “An Appeal from Mary in Argentina.”

At one point, Mary said, “Many hearts do not accept my invitation to prayer and to conversion. That is why the work of the devil is growing and expanding.”

The warnings said that mankind is “in the process of falling in to a progressive self-destruction” and the Virgin Mary represents hope. “It is up to you to set your eyes and your heart on God,” she said.

“I want to cure my children from this illness which is materialism; an illness which makes many suffer. I want to help them discover Christ, and I want to make it known to them that Christ prevails over everything,” Mary said in the apparition. She stressed the importance of prayer, especially the rosary.

*The apparition of Jesus told Gladys*, *“If this generation will not listen to my mother, it will perish. I ask everyone to listen to her. Man’s conversion is necessary.”*


*“Today I warn the world, for the world is not aware: souls are in danger. Many are lost,” Jesus said in a 1987 apparition. “Few will find salvation unless they accept me as their Savior. My mother must be accepted. My mother must be heard in the totality of her messages. The world must discover the richness she brings to Christians.”*


*“The children of sin will grow up in sin if their unbelief increases. I want a renewal of the spirit, a detachment from death, and an attachment to life. I have chosen the heart of my mother, so that what I ask will be achieved. Souls will come to me through the means of her Immaculate Heart.” *

The diocese’s successive local bishops have discussed the apparitions several times. Bishop Domingo Salvador Castagna ordered the construction of a shrine as the Virgin had requested. Construction began in 1987 and the shrine was consecrated in 1990. That year, he approved the publication and dissemination of the messages of Our Lady of the Rosary in San Nicolas.

Every year, a massive pilgrimage to the shrine takes place on May 22.

O’Neil said it is unique that the bishops have approved the apparition messages from 1983-1990, even though the apparition is continuing today.

“So we have an apparition where we have a living visionary, who’s approved as authentic by the bishops,” he said. “Usually they wait until the messages end or the visionary dies, but in this particular case they decided to go ahead with the approval.”

Bishop Cardelli explained the process that led him to make his latest decision. He consulted experts and witnesses and was conscious of his duty to monitor or intervene in such apparition claims.

He said that he judged the events according to two criteria: “Positive and negative, and in both cases there were not, nor are there errors.” He said that he made his discernment using three specific criteria: “Were the events of natural origin? Could it be a work of the Enemy? Are they of supernatural origin?”

“The answers to these questions gave me the certainty that the fruits are real and positive and go beyond mere human action,” the bishop stated.

O’Neill said that the process for approving apparitions evaluates their messages to ensure there is nothing to contradict Scripture, tradition or the faith and morals of the Catholic Church. Apparitions are “private revelation” that do not add to the public revelation of Sacred Scripture. The investigation also evaluates the visionary to confirm that they are of sound mind and moral character.

The declaration that an apparition is “worthy of belief” does not mean the faithful are obliged to believe the apparition or that it happened. O’Neil said that there was no evidence that Pope Francis was involved in evaluating this apparition when he was Archbishop of Buenos Aires.

Bishop Cardelli’s decree states that he recognized the apparition with “moral certitude, good intention and hope” and after fulfilling the Holy See’s suggested requirements for discernment. He said the decree is “seeking the greater glory of God and the good of our Church.”

Accompanying the bishop’s decree is the presentation of the book “The Spiritual School of Our Lady of the Rosary of San Nicolas.” The book says the most important teachings in the Virgin Mary’s messages are that “she offers us for our adherence to everything He tells us, because He is the culmination of revelation.”

“Finally, and as Our Holy Mother has requested, I implore Heaven in the name of the entire diocese, that she be forever the Queen and Lady of San Nicolas de los Arroyos,” the bishop concluded.


----------



## kanozas

Question:  What is the significance of the Wedding at Cana?
Answer:     More than the first public miracle of the L-rd at the request of His Mother.  

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-francis-want-to-celebrate-well-drink-wine-16554/
*Pope Francis: Want to celebrate well? Drink wine.*
*wine.




Pope Francis laughing outside of St. Peter's Basilica during the general audience on April 1, 2015. Credit: Bohumil Petrik/CNA.




by Elise Harris*

*Vatican City, Jun 8, 2016 / 05:09 am (CNA/EWTN News).- In an in-depth look at Jesus’ first miracle of turning water into wine at the wedding feast in Cana, Pope Francis pointed to several key moments in the scene that illuminate our understanding of Christ.


One of these key moments, he said, comes with Mary’s observation that newlywed couple’s resources have depleted, and that at a certain point “they have no wine.”

 
“How is it possible to celebrate the wedding and have a party if you lack what the prophets indicated was a typical element of the messianic banquet?” the Pope asked.

 
While water is necessary to live, “wine expresses the abundance of the banquet and the joy of the feast,” Francis said, noting that “a wedding feast lacking wine embarrasses the newlyweds – imagine finishing the wedding feast drinking tea? It would be an embarrassment!”

 
“Wine is necessary for the feast,” he said, and pointed to how Jesus, in turning the water into wine, makes “an eloquent sign,” because “he transforms the Law of Moses into the Gospel, bringer of joy.” 

 
Pope Francis spoke to the thousands of pilgrims present in St. Peter’s Square for his general audience. He continued his ongoing catechesis on mercy, turning from Jesus’ parables to his miracles.

 
However, before beginning his address, the Pope took a moment to greet a group of couples present celebrating 50 years of marriage.

 
“That's the good wine of the family!” he said of the couples, and told them that “yours is a witness that the newlyweds I'll greet after and the youth must learn. It's a beautiful witness. Thank you for your testimony!”

 
Francis then turned to the second chapter in the Gospel of John, which recounts the miracle that began Jesus’ public ministry: turning water into wine at a wedding feast in Cana, upon the request of his mother.

 
This miracle, the Pope said, serves as “an ‘entry point’ in which are engraved the words and expressions that illuminate the entire mystery of Christ and open the hearts of the disciples to the faith.”

 
In the expression that Jesus was “with his disciples,” it’s made clear that the ones Jesus has called to follow him are now bound together as a community and as a family, he said.


By initiating his public ministry at the wedding at Cana, Jesus both reveals himself as the bridegroom of the People of God who had been announced by the prophets, and also shows “the depth of the relationship which unites us to him: it’s a New Covenant of love.”

 
Francis said that the foundation of our faith is “an act of mercy with which Jesus has bound us to himself.” The Christian life, then, “is a response to this love, it’s the story of two lovers.”

 
Another key point in the passage is when Mary, after informing Jesus that the newlywed couple had run out of wine, tells the servants to “do whatever he tells you.” 


Pope Francis said “it’s curious” that these are the last words spoken by Mary in the Gospels, and that as such “they are her legacy which she presents to all of us. This is the legacy that she has left us and it’s beautiful!”


He noted how Mary’s expression is similar to another -- ‘What the Lord has said, we will do!’ – which was used by the people of Israel when they received the covenant with God on Mount Sinai.

 
In the wedding at Cana, a New Covenant is “truly stipulated” and the servants of the Lord, who are “the entire Church,” are entrusted with a new mission, the Pope explained.

 
This mission, following Mary’s directive to “Do whatever he tells you,” means serving the Lord by listening to his Word and putting it into practice, Francis continued, adding that “it’s the simple but essential recommendation of the Mother of Jesus and it’s the program of the Christian life.”

 
Jesus began his public works at Cana, revealing his glory to his disciples and cementing their belief in him, the Pope observed. Given these facts, “the wedding of Cana is much more than a simple story about Jesus’ first miracle.”

 
“Like a treasure chest, (Jesus) guards the secret of his person and the purpose for his coming,” Pope Francis said, explaining that it is through this wedding that Jesus binds his disciples to himself “with a new and definitive covenant.”

 
Francis closed his address by noting how Cana marks the place where Jesus’ disciples become his family and “the faith of the Church is born,” adding that “we are all invited to that wedding, because the new wine will never be lacking!”

*


----------



## kanozas

Sometimes, other things just don't fit with formal Q&A nor Articles and Documents.  Freedom to express without clogging up other threads. 


* Psalm 121American Standard Version (ASV)*
*Jehovah the keeper of his people.*
*A Song of Ascents.*
121 I will lift up mine eyes unto the mountains:
From whence shall my help come?
2 My help _cometh_ from Jehovah,
Who made heaven and earth.

3 a]">[a]He will not suffer thy foot to be moved:
He that keepeth thee will not slumber.
4 Behold, he that keepeth Israel
Will neither slumber nor sleep.
5 Jehovah is thy keeper:
Jehovah is thy shade upon thy right hand.
6 The sun shall not smite thee by day,
Nor the moon by night.
7 Jehovah will keep thee from all evil;
He will keep thy soul.
8 Jehovah will keep thy going out and thy coming in
From this time forth and for evermore.



I love this so and to listen to it sung.  Enjoy:


----------



## Galadriel

kanozas said:


> Sometimes, other things just don't fit with formal Q&A nor Articles and Documents.  Freedom to express without clogging up other threads.
> 
> 
> * Psalm 121American Standard Version (ASV)*
> *Jehovah the keeper of his people.*
> *A Song of Ascents.*
> 121 I will lift up mine eyes unto the mountains:
> From whence shall my help come?
> 2 My help _cometh_ from Jehovah,
> Who made heaven and earth.
> 
> 3 a]">[a]He will not suffer thy foot to be moved:
> He that keepeth thee will not slumber.
> 4 Behold, he that keepeth Israel
> Will neither slumber nor sleep.
> 5 Jehovah is thy keeper:
> Jehovah is thy shade upon thy right hand.
> 6 The sun shall not smite thee by day,
> Nor the moon by night.
> 7 Jehovah will keep thee from all evil;
> He will keep thy soul.
> 8 Jehovah will keep thy going out and thy coming in
> From this time forth and for evermore.
> 
> 
> 
> I love this so and to listen to it sung.  Enjoy:



Amazing! What a beautiful reminder that God holds us in His hands.


----------



## kanozas

@Galadriel

Amein!!!  I needed that and there it was, waiting for me.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Thank you for starting this thread! Shame the random thoughts thread has gone missing and the admin won't tell us what happened to it


----------



## Belle Du Jour

This month we celebrate the feast of our Lord's heart:






Behind this heart which has so loved the world, but has been so little loved in return...


----------



## Shimmie

Belle Du Jour said:


> Thank you for starting this thread! Shame the random thoughts thread has gone missing and the admin won't tell us what happened to it


Hi @Belle Du Jour...

Please don't take offense regarding the Catholic Random Thoughts thread.   It is currently being moderated for negative comments that were posted regarding 'non-Catholics', and because it is such a huge thread, it will take a while to complete the process.

I've gone to great lengths to support our Catholic members here and it is only fair to support those who are not of the Catholic faith as well.

I deliberated strongly regarding the most recent thread which was started which actually indicates it was started with a negative motive.    It wasn't necessary to do so.   The OP / post that was in the new thread directed to Catholics could have easily have been shared with *all* of our Christian members here as encouragement rather than as a sour move to prove a point.  Think about it...take time to just think about.    It indicated isolation and a superior attitude.   Psalm 121 was placed in the Word of God for all Believers... was it not?  

The Christian forum is not here to create division among any of us.  Rather, it is here to bring us together in harmony in spite of our differences in doctrine.     

*As of this date and time, the isolation stops.      *We are all in this together.   We have more than enough persecution / isolation set against us* ALL* as Christians from those who are not Christians of any denomination.    We are here to encourage each other, no one is any better or less.   We still share a common ground, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ who is coming for a Church of Peace.  

I say this in love for all of our Christian members.    

In Jesus' Name, Amen.


----------



## kanozas

Anyhoo, forget all that, life's too short to enjoy the any blessings.  Sooo...I needed to give this link hours ago.  His site is back up.  Excellent site and very interesting conversion story of Marty Barrack!  Please take a look and pass it along.


http://secondexodus.com/


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Shimmie said:


> Hi @Belle Du Jour...
> 
> Please don't take offense regarding the Catholic Random Thoughts thread.   It is currently being moderated for negative comments that were posted regarding 'non-Catholics', and because it is such a huge thread, it will take a while to complete the process.
> 
> I've gone to great lengths to support our Catholic members here and it is only fair to support those who are not of the Catholic faith as well.
> 
> I deliberated strongly regarding the most recent thread which was started which actually indicates it was started with a negative motive.    It wasn't necessary to do so.   The OP / post that was in the new thread directed to Catholics could have easily have been shared with *all* of our Christian members here as encouragement rather than as a sour move to prove a point.  Think about it...take time to just think about.    It indicated isolation and a superior attitude.   Psalm 121 was placed in the Word of God for all Believers... was it not?
> 
> The Christian forum is not here to create division among any of us.  Rather, it is here to bring us together in harmony in spite of our differences in doctrine.
> 
> *As of this date and time, the isolation stops.      *We are all in this together.   We have more than enough persecution / isolation set against us* ALL* as Christians from those who are not Christians of any denomination.    We are here to encourage each other, no one is any better or less.   We still share a common ground, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ who is coming for a Church of Peace.
> 
> I say this in love for all of our Christian members.
> 
> In Jesus' Name, Amen.



To be fair to @kanozas I think the thread was started to replace the Catholic Random Thoughts thread since none of us were aware what happened despite asking...it seemed like our questions were being ignored.  I also don't think any of us who identify as Catholics are trying to isolate ourselves.  The reality is we have been isolated by Christians of other denominations who don't see us as Christian which is ridiculous.  I do think we have the right to defend ourselves and our faith.  When we share historical facts about the origins of Christianity, this might be seen as an attack by non-Catholics but we are presenting historical facts about the timeline of Christianity...these facts cannot be changed even though people may not want to hear them.  Presenting historical facts is _completely_ different than the Catholic church being called "the whore of Babylon" or "pagans" which has happened in multiple posts and threads.  I'm sure you understand that there is a difference.

Anyway, thank you for explaining what happened because of course, it's easy to assume the worst when nothing is said.


----------



## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> To be fair to @kanozas I think the thread was started to replace the Catholic Random Thoughts thread since none of us were aware what happened despite asking...it seemed like our questions were being ignored.  I also don't think any of us who identify as Catholics are trying to isolate ourselves.  The reality is we have been isolated by Christians of other denominations who don't see us as Christian which is ridiculous.  I do think we have the right to defend ourselves and our faith.  When we share historical facts about the origins of Christianity, this might be seen as an attack by non-Catholics but we are presenting historical facts about the timeline of Christianity...these facts cannot be changed even though people may not want to hear them.  Presenting historical facts is _completely_ different than the Catholic church being called "the whore of Babylon" or "pagans" which has happened in multiple posts and threads.  I'm sure you understand that there is a difference.
> 
> Anyway, thank you for explaining what happened because of course, it's easy to assume the worst when nothing is said.



Catholic Random Thoughts is gone poof? (Sorry, I've been in and out). Are we still able to have threads addressing other Catholics or questions on Catholicism? (As long as there are no attacks/hostility)?


----------



## Galadriel

That is pretty awesome! And it's so reminiscent of Our Lady of Fatima in some ways. I enrolled in the Confraternity of the Most Holy Rosary--gonna say my prayers 




kanozas said:


> Has anybody seen this one yet?  I didn't know about it from the 90's.
> 
> https://longhaircareforum.com/search/4774003/?q=for+catholics&t=post&o=relevance
> 
> *A Marian apparition has been approved in Argentina - and it's a big deal*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tatue of Mary. Credit: Myibean via www.shutterstock.com.
> 
> Buenos Aires, Argentina, Jun 4, 2016 / 05:11 am (CNA).-
> 
> What began with glowing rosaries and the rediscovery of a statue of the Virgin Mary in Argentina has now been approved by the local bishop as a series of apparitions that are “of supernational origin” and worthy of belief.
> 
> And the designation is deeply significant, recognizing the messages of Our Lady of the Rosary of San Nicolas, which exhort peace and give dire warnings, one miracle researcher says.
> 
> Bishop Hector Cardelli of San Nicolas in Argentina’s Buenos Aires province made the announcement May 22 at the conclusion of a Mass during the well-attended pilgrimage to the Shrine of Our Lady of the Rosary of San Nicolas.
> 
> The bishop has investigated the contents of the apparitions through 1990.
> 
> “(I)n my twelfth year of pastoring San Nicolas and, having followed with faith and responsibility the Marian events that I have known about since the very beginning, I have reached the decision to recognize them for my diocese,” Bishop Hector said.
> 
> “I recognize the supernatural nature of the happy events with which God through his beloved daughter, Jesus through his Most Holy Mother, the Holy Spirit through his beloved spouse, has desired to lovingly manifest himself in our diocese.”
> 
> Michael O’Neil, a miracle researcher and author who runs the website MiracleHunter.com, told CNA that the approval is significant. It means that the messages from the apparitions are not only approved for the faithful to read, he explained: the bishop is saying the events were in fact actual miraculous apparitions.
> 
> “That puts it on par with Lourdes, Fatima and Guadalupe,” O’Neil said
> 
> The apparitions began after some rosaries in homes throughout San Nicolas de los Arroyos in Buenos Aires Province began to glow without any explanation.
> 
> A wife and mother named Gladys Quiroga de Motta saw these glowing rosaries and began to pray to the Virgin Mary. The Virgin appeared to her on Sept. 25, carrying the infant Jesus and wearing a blue gown and veil. Her figure glowed with light.
> 
> With only a fourth-grade education, Gladys had no great knowledge of the Bible or theology. She is a mother of two daughters and a grandmother.
> 
> At various times, the Virgin Mary apparition referred the woman to several Bible verses. One month after the first appearance, the apparition gave Gladys a white rosary and said, “Receive this Rosary from my hands and keep it forever and ever. You are obedient; I am happy because of it. Rejoice, for God is with you.”
> 
> The Virgin Mary asked Gladys to go look for a statue that had been blessed by a Pope and was forgotten away in a church. She found the statue on Nov. 27, 1983. It was in the belfry of the diocesan cathedral.
> 
> The statue in question was of the Mother of God holding the Child Jesus. It had been brought from Rome after it was blessed by Pope Leo XIII. Following the Virgin’s instructions, it was found in the bell tower of the church. The statue resembled the apparition.
> 
> Gladys also received 68 visits and messages from Jesus.
> 
> According to reports, Gladys shared the apparitions’ messages from the beginning. She was always at the disposal of the church authorities. Gladys now lives a life of great devotion, always keeping a low profile. She reportedly received the stigmata on her wrists, feet, side and shoulder.
> 
> There have been several documented healings related to the apparitions, including the healing of a boy with a brain tumor.
> 
> Gladys has shared about 1,800 messages from the Virgin Mary, O’Neil said. Many focus on topics like peace, repentance, returning to the sacraments, and drawing people closer to Christ. But there are also messages in an apocalyptic theme, predicting great turmoil for humanity ahead.
> 
> “So that’s the tricky part with all of this,” O’Neil said. “It’s not as simple as some of the other apparitions that just draw people closer to Christ… there are some dire warnings as well.”
> 
> Father René Laurentin, an expert on Marian apparitions, recounted the apparitions’ messages in his book, “An Appeal from Mary in Argentina.”
> 
> At one point, Mary said, “Many hearts do not accept my invitation to prayer and to conversion. That is why the work of the devil is growing and expanding.”
> 
> The warnings said that mankind is “in the process of falling in to a progressive self-destruction” and the Virgin Mary represents hope. “It is up to you to set your eyes and your heart on God,” she said.
> 
> “I want to cure my children from this illness which is materialism; an illness which makes many suffer. I want to help them discover Christ, and I want to make it known to them that Christ prevails over everything,” Mary said in the apparition. She stressed the importance of prayer, especially the rosary.
> 
> *The apparition of Jesus told Gladys*, *“If this generation will not listen to my mother, it will perish. I ask everyone to listen to her. Man’s conversion is necessary.”*
> 
> 
> *“Today I warn the world, for the world is not aware: souls are in danger. Many are lost,” Jesus said in a 1987 apparition. “Few will find salvation unless they accept me as their Savior. My mother must be accepted. My mother must be heard in the totality of her messages. The world must discover the richness she brings to Christians.”*
> 
> 
> *“The children of sin will grow up in sin if their unbelief increases. I want a renewal of the spirit, a detachment from death, and an attachment to life. I have chosen the heart of my mother, so that what I ask will be achieved. Souls will come to me through the means of her Immaculate Heart.” *
> 
> The diocese’s successive local bishops have discussed the apparitions several times. Bishop Domingo Salvador Castagna ordered the construction of a shrine as the Virgin had requested. Construction began in 1987 and the shrine was consecrated in 1990. That year, he approved the publication and dissemination of the messages of Our Lady of the Rosary in San Nicolas.
> 
> Every year, a massive pilgrimage to the shrine takes place on May 22.
> 
> O’Neil said it is unique that the bishops have approved the apparition messages from 1983-1990, even though the apparition is continuing today.
> 
> “So we have an apparition where we have a living visionary, who’s approved as authentic by the bishops,” he said. “Usually they wait until the messages end or the visionary dies, but in this particular case they decided to go ahead with the approval.”
> 
> Bishop Cardelli explained the process that led him to make his latest decision. He consulted experts and witnesses and was conscious of his duty to monitor or intervene in such apparition claims.
> 
> He said that he judged the events according to two criteria: “Positive and negative, and in both cases there were not, nor are there errors.” He said that he made his discernment using three specific criteria: “Were the events of natural origin? Could it be a work of the Enemy? Are they of supernatural origin?”
> 
> “The answers to these questions gave me the certainty that the fruits are real and positive and go beyond mere human action,” the bishop stated.
> 
> O’Neill said that the process for approving apparitions evaluates their messages to ensure there is nothing to contradict Scripture, tradition or the faith and morals of the Catholic Church. Apparitions are “private revelation” that do not add to the public revelation of Sacred Scripture. The investigation also evaluates the visionary to confirm that they are of sound mind and moral character.
> 
> The declaration that an apparition is “worthy of belief” does not mean the faithful are obliged to believe the apparition or that it happened. O’Neil said that there was no evidence that Pope Francis was involved in evaluating this apparition when he was Archbishop of Buenos Aires.
> 
> Bishop Cardelli’s decree states that he recognized the apparition with “moral certitude, good intention and hope” and after fulfilling the Holy See’s suggested requirements for discernment. He said the decree is “seeking the greater glory of God and the good of our Church.”
> 
> Accompanying the bishop’s decree is the presentation of the book “The Spiritual School of Our Lady of the Rosary of San Nicolas.” The book says the most important teachings in the Virgin Mary’s messages are that “she offers us for our adherence to everything He tells us, because He is the culmination of revelation.”
> 
> “Finally, and as Our Holy Mother has requested, I implore Heaven in the name of the entire diocese, that she be forever the Queen and Lady of San Nicolas de los Arroyos,” the bishop concluded.


----------



## kanozas

Galadriel said:


> That is pretty awesome! And it's so reminiscent of Our Lady of Fatima in some ways. I enrolled in the Confraternity of the Most Holy Rosary--gonna say my prayers




I try and say it daily and sometimes follow online with the perpetual rosary internationally.  Considered joining the Confraternity...but then I feel bad when I don't pray it lol.  There is a server at our parish who wears royal blue every single day.  I think he's joined the Blue Army of Our Lady of Fatima.


----------



## Galadriel

kanozas said:


> I try and say it daily and sometimes follow online with the perpetual rosary internationally.  Considered joining the Confraternity...but then I feel bad when I don't pray it lol.  There is a server at our parish who wears royal blue every single day.  I think he's joined the Blue Army of Our Lady of Fatima.



I know, I feel so bad when I don't pray it! But this nice lady at my parish is starting "soulcore" classes--basically pairing rosary prayer with exercise--I'm going to pop in tomorrow and give it a try. Will be fun, I'm sure! Here's to being on-track with my rosaries.


----------



## kanozas

Galadriel said:


> I know, I feel so bad when I don't pray it! But this nice lady at my parish is starting "soulcore" classes--basically pairing rosary prayer with exercise--I'm going to pop in tomorrow and give it a try. Will be fun, I'm sure! Here's to being on-track with my rosaries.




LOL  Sounds fun.


----------



## Shimmie

Galadriel said:


> Catholic Random Thoughts is gone poof? (Sorry, I've been in and out). *Are we still able to have threads addressing other Catholics or questions on Catholicism? (As long as there are no attacks/hostility)*?



Hi @Galadriel 

The Catholic Random Thoughts thread will be back up as soon as I'm able to finish going through it. It is a very large thread and there are some posts which are in question regarding non Catholics.  

And yes, indeed you are able to continue to share with your Catholic members in this forum and as you shared above (as long as there are no attacks or hostility).    

My focus is to keep peace on this forum between everyone.  There is still a common ground that we all share... it's the love of Jesus Christ.


----------



## Shimmie

Belle Du Jour said:


> To be fair to @kanozas *I think the thread was started to replace the Catholic Random Thoughts thread since none of us were aware what happened despite asking...it seemed like our questions were being ignored.  *I also don't think any of us who identify as Catholics are trying to isolate ourselves.  The reality is we have been isolated by Christians of other denominations who don't see us as Christian which is ridiculous.  *I do think we have the right to defend ourselves and our faith.  When we share historical facts about the origins of Christianity, this might be seen as an attack by non-Catholics but we are presenting historical facts about the timeline of Christianity...these facts cannot be changed even though people may not want to hear them.  *Presenting historical facts is _completely_ different than the Catholic church being called "the whore of Babylon" or "pagans" which has happened in multiple posts and threads.  I'm sure you understand that there is a difference.
> 
> Anyway, thank you for explaining what happened because of course, it's easy to assume the worst when nothing is said.



Belle, when did you ask about the thread being missing?   There's nothing in my PM box about it or this forum. 

Let's be fair, I've gone to great lengths to make it clear that the 'attacks' against our Catholic members here were unacceptable -- therefore you have not been ignored by me.  

However, the same applies to the attacks that have been placed upon our non Catholic members, which is *equally* unacceptable.  

The Catholic RT thread has several posts which do just that...there are posts in the Catholic RT thread which clearly serve as an attack against our non Catholic members.    That is just as unfair to them as it is to you.   There is no hierarchy here other than the Lord Jesus Christ. 

Let this thread serve as your Catholic RT for the time being.   There's no point in creating a separate thread for RT's.    We have one thread that already serves that purpose which is for* all* Christians to participate.   

In all sincerity,
Shimmie


----------



## kanozas

Galadriel said:


> Catholic Random Thoughts is gone poof? (Sorry, I've been in and out). Are we still able to have threads addressing other Catholics or questions on Catholicism? (As long as there are no attacks/hostility)?




They want there to be no divisions....like that was our intent.  I am catholic, I like to discuss catholicism and Judaism


Shimmie said:


> Hi @Galadriel
> 
> The Catholic Random Thoughts thread will be back up as soon as I'm able to finish going through it. It is a very large thread and there are some posts which are in question regarding non Catholics.
> 
> And yes, indeed you are able to continue to share with your Catholic members in this forum and as you shared above (as long as there are no attacks or hostility).
> 
> My focus is to keep peace on this forum between everyone.  There is still a common ground that we all share... it's the love of Jesus Christ.




Thank you for your communication as to why it was removed.  As stated before, I was told it was lost by accident.  That is why I made the other one and I changed the title so it would not appear that there was divisiveness or competition.  But still, there are topics that I think others do not want to be subjected to in the Christian RT (Our Lady, icons, intecessory prayers etc).  It makes others uncomfortable.  They don't want to see images.  Some random icon or news event doesn't belong in the Novenas or just plain musings for the day.  That is why I made it...and also to be free from limitation in posting.  I do also mostly post in the catholic section as a matter of personal choice unless it's something that affects all of christendom and please know (everyone) that it is my personal choice since the catholic expression is my best expression, including the post of Psalms 121.  It was not shared there in order to spite everyone else.  I truly don't care if you believe this but I care about a good name...and I answer to no man and am setting the record straight.  I'm not angry at you but I don't like the charge.  This issue is now moot.  If this happens again, I will _completely_ ignore the culprits.  I won't even directly defend the faith.  Not looking back.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Shimmie said:


> Belle, when did you ask about the thread being missing?   There's nothing in my PM box about it or this forum.
> 
> Let's be fair, I've gone to great lengths to make it clear that the 'attacks' against our Catholic members here were unacceptable -- therefore you have not been ignored by me.
> 
> However, the same applies to the attacks that have been placed upon our non Catholic members, which is *equally* unacceptable.
> 
> The Catholic RT thread has several posts which do just that...there are posts in the Catholic RT thread which clearly serve as an attack against our non Catholic members.    That is just as unfair to them as it is to you.   There is no hierarchy here other than the Lord Jesus Christ.
> 
> Let this thread serve as your Catholic RT for the time being.   There's no point in creating a separate thread for RT's.    We have one thread that already serves that purpose which is for* all* Christians to participate.
> 
> In all sincerity,
> Shimmie



I tagged you in a thread asking about the random thoughts thread.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Galadriel said:


> That is pretty awesome! And it's so reminiscent of Our Lady of Fatima in some ways. I enrolled in the Confraternity of the Most Holy Rosary--gonna say my prayers



I'm in the confraternity. Easy way to get indulgences lol.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

kanozas said:


> I try and say it daily and sometimes follow online with the perpetual rosary internationally.  Considered joining the Confraternity...but then I feel bad when I don't pray it lol.  There is a server at our parish who wears royal blue every single day.  I think he's joined the Blue Army of Our Lady of Fatima.



With the confraternity you commit to one full rosary a week, not daily. So as long as you get in 15 decades over the course of the week you still reap the benefits.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

kanozas said:


> Has anybody seen this one yet?  I didn't know about it from the 90's.
> 
> https://longhaircareforum.com/search/4774003/?q=for+catholics&t=post&o=relevance
> 
> *A Marian apparition has been approved in Argentina - and it's a big deal*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tatue of Mary. Credit: Myibean via www.shutterstock.com.
> 
> Buenos Aires, Argentina, Jun 4, 2016 / 05:11 am (CNA).-
> 
> What began with glowing rosaries and the rediscovery of a statue of the Virgin Mary in Argentina has now been approved by the local bishop as a series of apparitions that are “of supernational origin” and worthy of belief.
> 
> And the designation is deeply significant, recognizing the messages of Our Lady of the Rosary of San Nicolas, which exhort peace and give dire warnings, one miracle researcher says.
> 
> Bishop Hector Cardelli of San Nicolas in Argentina’s Buenos Aires province made the announcement May 22 at the conclusion of a Mass during the well-attended pilgrimage to the Shrine of Our Lady of the Rosary of San Nicolas.
> 
> The bishop has investigated the contents of the apparitions through 1990.
> 
> “(I)n my twelfth year of pastoring San Nicolas and, having followed with faith and responsibility the Marian events that I have known about since the very beginning, I have reached the decision to recognize them for my diocese,” Bishop Hector said.
> 
> “I recognize the supernatural nature of the happy events with which God through his beloved daughter, Jesus through his Most Holy Mother, the Holy Spirit through his beloved spouse, has desired to lovingly manifest himself in our diocese.”
> 
> Michael O’Neil, a miracle researcher and author who runs the website MiracleHunter.com, told CNA that the approval is significant. It means that the messages from the apparitions are not only approved for the faithful to read, he explained: the bishop is saying the events were in fact actual miraculous apparitions.
> 
> “That puts it on par with Lourdes, Fatima and Guadalupe,” O’Neil said
> 
> The apparitions began after some rosaries in homes throughout San Nicolas de los Arroyos in Buenos Aires Province began to glow without any explanation.
> 
> A wife and mother named Gladys Quiroga de Motta saw these glowing rosaries and began to pray to the Virgin Mary. The Virgin appeared to her on Sept. 25, carrying the infant Jesus and wearing a blue gown and veil. Her figure glowed with light.
> 
> With only a fourth-grade education, Gladys had no great knowledge of the Bible or theology. She is a mother of two daughters and a grandmother.
> 
> At various times, the Virgin Mary apparition referred the woman to several Bible verses. One month after the first appearance, the apparition gave Gladys a white rosary and said, “Receive this Rosary from my hands and keep it forever and ever. You are obedient; I am happy because of it. Rejoice, for God is with you.”
> 
> The Virgin Mary asked Gladys to go look for a statue that had been blessed by a Pope and was forgotten away in a church. She found the statue on Nov. 27, 1983. It was in the belfry of the diocesan cathedral.
> 
> The statue in question was of the Mother of God holding the Child Jesus. It had been brought from Rome after it was blessed by Pope Leo XIII. Following the Virgin’s instructions, it was found in the bell tower of the church. The statue resembled the apparition.
> 
> Gladys also received 68 visits and messages from Jesus.
> 
> According to reports, Gladys shared the apparitions’ messages from the beginning. She was always at the disposal of the church authorities. Gladys now lives a life of great devotion, always keeping a low profile. She reportedly received the stigmata on her wrists, feet, side and shoulder.
> 
> There have been several documented healings related to the apparitions, including the healing of a boy with a brain tumor.
> 
> Gladys has shared about 1,800 messages from the Virgin Mary, O’Neil said. Many focus on topics like peace, repentance, returning to the sacraments, and drawing people closer to Christ. But there are also messages in an apocalyptic theme, predicting great turmoil for humanity ahead.
> 
> “So that’s the tricky part with all of this,” O’Neil said. “It’s not as simple as some of the other apparitions that just draw people closer to Christ… there are some dire warnings as well.”
> 
> Father René Laurentin, an expert on Marian apparitions, recounted the apparitions’ messages in his book, “An Appeal from Mary in Argentina.”
> 
> At one point, Mary said, “Many hearts do not accept my invitation to prayer and to conversion. That is why the work of the devil is growing and expanding.”
> 
> The warnings said that mankind is “in the process of falling in to a progressive self-destruction” and the Virgin Mary represents hope. “It is up to you to set your eyes and your heart on God,” she said.
> 
> “I want to cure my children from this illness which is materialism; an illness which makes many suffer. I want to help them discover Christ, and I want to make it known to them that Christ prevails over everything,” Mary said in the apparition. She stressed the importance of prayer, especially the rosary.
> 
> *The apparition of Jesus told Gladys*, *“If this generation will not listen to my mother, it will perish. I ask everyone to listen to her. Man’s conversion is necessary.”*
> 
> 
> *“Today I warn the world, for the world is not aware: souls are in danger. Many are lost,” Jesus said in a 1987 apparition. “Few will find salvation unless they accept me as their Savior. My mother must be accepted. My mother must be heard in the totality of her messages. The world must discover the richness she brings to Christians.”*
> 
> 
> *“The children of sin will grow up in sin if their unbelief increases. I want a renewal of the spirit, a detachment from death, and an attachment to life. I have chosen the heart of my mother, so that what I ask will be achieved. Souls will come to me through the means of her Immaculate Heart.” *
> 
> The diocese’s successive local bishops have discussed the apparitions several times. Bishop Domingo Salvador Castagna ordered the construction of a shrine as the Virgin had requested. Construction began in 1987 and the shrine was consecrated in 1990. That year, he approved the publication and dissemination of the messages of Our Lady of the Rosary in San Nicolas.
> 
> Every year, a massive pilgrimage to the shrine takes place on May 22.
> 
> O’Neil said it is unique that the bishops have approved the apparition messages from 1983-1990, even though the apparition is continuing today.
> 
> “So we have an apparition where we have a living visionary, who’s approved as authentic by the bishops,” he said. “Usually they wait until the messages end or the visionary dies, but in this particular case they decided to go ahead with the approval.”
> 
> Bishop Cardelli explained the process that led him to make his latest decision. He consulted experts and witnesses and was conscious of his duty to monitor or intervene in such apparition claims.
> 
> He said that he judged the events according to two criteria: “Positive and negative, and in both cases there were not, nor are there errors.” He said that he made his discernment using three specific criteria: “Were the events of natural origin? Could it be a work of the Enemy? Are they of supernatural origin?”
> 
> “The answers to these questions gave me the certainty that the fruits are real and positive and go beyond mere human action,” the bishop stated.
> 
> O’Neill said that the process for approving apparitions evaluates their messages to ensure there is nothing to contradict Scripture, tradition or the faith and morals of the Catholic Church. Apparitions are “private revelation” that do not add to the public revelation of Sacred Scripture. The investigation also evaluates the visionary to confirm that they are of sound mind and moral character.
> 
> The declaration that an apparition is “worthy of belief” does not mean the faithful are obliged to believe the apparition or that it happened. O’Neil said that there was no evidence that Pope Francis was involved in evaluating this apparition when he was Archbishop of Buenos Aires.
> 
> Bishop Cardelli’s decree states that he recognized the apparition with “moral certitude, good intention and hope” and after fulfilling the Holy See’s suggested requirements for discernment. He said the decree is “seeking the greater glory of God and the good of our Church.”
> 
> Accompanying the bishop’s decree is the presentation of the book “The Spiritual School of Our Lady of the Rosary of San Nicolas.” The book says the most important teachings in the Virgin Mary’s messages are that “she offers us for our adherence to everything He tells us, because He is the culmination of revelation.”
> 
> “Finally, and as Our Holy Mother has requested, I implore Heaven in the name of the entire diocese, that she be forever the Queen and Lady of San Nicolas de los Arroyos,” the bishop concluded.



I heard about it and I want that medal. Couldn't find it.


----------



## kanozas

Did you try Catholic.org?  In fact, I might ask someone to get some medals...they are going to be there soon.


----------



## kanozas

Is anybody going to celebrate St. Anthony's feast day?  At our parish, there will be blessed rosaries after the service.  I'm thinking of going.  
http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=24
*Life*




Church of Saint Anthony, in Lisbon, Portugal, the birthplace of Saint Anthony of Padua.
*Early years*
Fernando Martins was born in Lisbon, Portugal.[2] While fifteenth century writers state that his parents were Vicente Martins and Teresa Pais Taveira, and that his father was the brother of Pedro Martins de Bulhões, the ancestor of the Bulhão or Bulhões family, Niccolò Dal-Gal views this as less certain.[2] His wealthy and noble family arranged for him to be instructed at the local cathedral school. At the age of fifteen, he entered the community of Canons Regular at the Augustinian Abbey of Saint Vincent on the outskirts of Lisbon.

In 1212, distracted by frequent visits from family and friends, he asked to be transferred to the motherhouse of the congregation, the Abbey of Santa Cruz in Coimbra, then the capital of Portugal.[3] There the young Fernando studied theology and Latin.

*Joining the Franciscans*




In Alvise Vivarini's painting, Anthony is distinguished from the others saints by his attributes, the book and the white lily stalk
After his ordination to the priesthood, Fernando was named guestmaster and placed in charge of hospitality for the abbey. While he was in Coimbra, some Franciscan friars arrived and settled at a small hermitage outside Coimbra dedicated to Saint Anthony of Egypt.[3] Fernando was strongly attracted to the simple, evangelical lifestyle of the friars, whose order had been founded only eleven years prior. News arrived that five Franciscans had been beheaded in Morocco, the first of their order to be killed. King Afonso ransomed their bodies to be returned and buried as martyrs in the Abbey of Santa Cruz.[3] Inspired by their example, Fernando obtained permission from church authorities to leave the Canons Regular to join the new Franciscan Order. Upon his admission to the life of the friars, he joined the small hermitage in Olivais, adopting the name Anthony (from the name of the chapel located there, dedicated to Saint Anthony the Great), by which he was to be known.[4]

Anthony then set out for Morocco, in fulfillment of his new vocation. However, he fell seriously ill in Morocco and set sail back for Portugal in hope of regaining his health. On the return voyage the ship was blown off course and landed in Sicily.[5]

From Sicily he made his way to Tuscany where he was assigned to a convent of the order, but he met with difficulty on account of his sickly appearance. He was finally assigned to the rural hermitage of San Paolo near Forlì, Romagna, a choice made after considering his poor health. There he had recourse to a cell one of the friars had made in a nearby cave, spending time in private prayer and study.[6]

*Preaching and teaching*




_Saint Anthony of Padua Holding Baby Jesus_ by Strozzi, c. 1625; the white lily represents purity
One day, in 1222, in the town of Forli, on the occasion of an ordination, a number of visiting Dominican friars were present, and there was some misunderstanding over who should preach. The Franciscans naturally expected that one of the Dominicans would occupy the pulpit, for they were renowned for their preaching; the Dominicans, on the other hand, had come unprepared, thinking that a Franciscan would be the homilist. In this quandary, the head of the hermitage, who had no one among his own humble friars suitable for the occasion, called upon Anthony, whom he suspected was most qualified, and entreated him to speak whatever the Holy Spirit should put into his mouth.[5] Anthony objected but was overruled, and his sermon created a deep impression. Not only his rich voice and arresting manner, but the entire theme and substance of his discourse and his moving eloquence, held the attention of his hearers. Everyone was impressed with his knowledge of Scripture, acquired during his years as an Augustinian friar.

At that point, Anthony was sent by Brother Gratian, the local Minister Provincial, to the Franciscan province of Romagna, based in Bologna.[5] He soon came to the attention of the founder of the order, Francis of Assisi. Francis had held a strong distrust of the place of theological studies in the life of his brotherhood, fearing that it might lead to an abandonment of their commitment to a life of real poverty. In Anthony, however, he found a kindred spirit for his vision, who was also able to provide the teaching needed by young members of the order who might seek ordination. In 1224 he entrusted the pursuit of studies for any of his friars to the care of Anthony.





St Anthony holding Baby Jesus
The reason St. Anthony's help is invoked for finding things lost or stolen is traced to an incident that occurred in Bologna. According to the story, Anthony had a book of psalms that was of some importance to him as it contained the notes and comments he had made to use in teaching his students. A novice who had decided to leave took the psalter with him. Prior to the invention of the printing press, any book was an item of value. Upon noticing it was missing, Anthony prayed it would be found or returned. The thief was moved to restore the book to Anthony and return to the Order. The stolen book is said to be preserved in the Franciscan friary in Bologna.[7]

Occasionally he took another post, as a teacher, for instance, at the universities of Montpellier and Toulouse in southern France, but it was as a preacher that Anthony revealed his supreme gift. According to historian Sophronius Clasen, Anthony preached the grandeur of Christianity.[6] His method included allegory and symbolical explanation of Scripture. In 1226, after attending the General Chapter of his order held at Arles, France, and preaching in the French region of Provence, Anthony returned to Italy and was appointed provincial superior of northern Italy. He chose the city of Padua as his location.

In 1228 he served as envoy from the general chapter to Pope Gregory IX. At the Papal court, his preaching was hailed as a "jewel case of the Bible" and he was commissioned to produce his collection of sermons, _Sermons for Feast Days_ (_Sermones in Festivitates_). Gregory IX himself described him as the "Ark of the Testament"[8] (_Doctor Arca testamenti_).

*Death*




_Anthony of Padua with the Infant Jesus_ by Antonio de Pereda, detail
Anthony became sick with ergotism, a disease which is now known also under the name "Saint Anthony's Fire", and, in 1231, went to the woodland retreat at Camposampiero with two other friars for a respite. There he lived in a cell built for him under the branches of a walnut tree. Anthony died on the way back to Padua on 13 June 1231 at the Poor Clare monastery at Arcella (now part of Padua), aged 35.

According to the request of Anthony, he was buried in the small church of Santa Maria Mater Domini, probably dating from the late 12th century and near a convent which had been founded by him in 1229. Nevertheless, due to his increased notability, construction of a large Basilica began around 1232 - although it was not completed until 1301. The smaller church was incorporated into structure as the Cappella della Madonna Mora (Chapel of the Dark Madonna). The basilica is commonly known today as "Il Santo".

Various legends surround the death of Anthony. One holds that when he died, the children cried in the streets and that all the bells of the churches rang of their own accord. Another legend regards his tongue. Anthony is buried in a chapel within the large basilica built to honor him, where his tongue is displayed for veneration in a large reliquary along with his jaw and his vocal cords. When his body was exhumed thirty years after his death, it was found turned to dust, but the tongue was claimed to have glistened and looked as if it was still alive and moist; apparently a further claim was made that this was a sign of his gift of preaching.[9] On 1 January 1981 Pope John Paul II authorized a scientific team to study the saint's remains and the tomb was opened on 6 January.[10]

*Saint and Doctor of the Church*




St Anthony of Padua and St Francis of Assisi by Friedrich Pacher.
Anthony was canonized by Pope Gregory IX on 30 May 1232, at Spoleto, Italy, less than one year after his death.[2]

"The richness of spiritual teaching contained in the _Sermons_ was so great that in [16 January] 1946 Venerable Pope Pius XII proclaimed Anthony a Doctor of the Church, attributing to him the title _Doctor Evangelicus_ ["Evangelical Doctor"], since the freshness and beauty of the Gospel emerge from these writings."[11]

*Veneration as patron saint*




El Greco's painting, 1580, shows the book with an image of the Christ child on the page.
Anthony's fame spread through Portuguese evangelization, and he has been known as the most celebrated of the followers of Saint Francis of Assisi. He is the patron saint of *Padua* and many places in *Portugal* and in the countries of the *former Portuguese Empire*.[12]

He is especially invoked and venerated all over the world as the *patron saint for the recovery of lost items*, and is credited with many miracles involving lost people, lost things and even lost spiritual goods.[12][13]

*North America*
In 1691 Spanish missionaries came across a small Payaya Indian community along what was then known as the Yanaguana River on the feast day of Saint Anthony, 13 June. The Franciscan chaplain, Father Damien Massanet, with agreement General Domingo de Teran, renamed the rivers in his honor, and eventually a mission built nearby as well. This mission became the focal point of a small community that eventually grew in size and scope to become the seventh largest city in the country, the U.S. city of San Antonio, Texas.

In New York City, the Shrine Church of St. Anthony in Greenwich Village, Manhattan celebrates his feast day, starting with the traditional novena of prayers asking for his intercession on the 13 Tuesdays preceding his feast. This culminates with a week-long series of services and a street fair. A traditional Italian-style procession is held that day through the streets of its South Village neighborhood, in which a relic of the saint is carried for veneration.[14]





Miraculous Image of Saint Anthony, by Franciszek Lekszycki OFM, 1649, Przeworsk, Poland
Each year on the weekend of the last Sunday in August, Boston's North End holds a feast in honor of Saint Anthony. Referred to as the "Feast of All Feasts", Saint Anthony's Feast in Boston's North End was begun in 1919 by Italian immigrants from Montefalcione, a small town near Naples, where the tradition of honoring Saint Anthony goes back to 1688.

Each year the Sandia Pueblo along with Santa Clara Pueblo celebrate the feast day of Saint Anthony with traditional Native American dances

On 27 January 1907, in Beaumont, Texas, a church was dedicated and named in honor of Saint Anthony. The church was later designated a cathedral in 1966 with the formation of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Beaumont, but was not formally consecrated. On 28 April 1974, St. Anthony Cathedral was dedicated and consecrated by Bishop Warren Boudreaux. In 2006 Pope Benedict XVI granted the cathedral the designation of minor basilica. St. Anthony Cathedral Basilica celebrated its 100th anniversary on 28 January 2007.

St. Anthony gives his name to Mission San Antonio de Padua, the third Franciscan mission dedicated along El Camino Real in California in 1771.

In Ellicott City, Maryland, the Conventual Franciscans of the St. Anthony Province dedicated their old novitiate house as The Shrine of St. Anthony which since 1 July 2004 serves as the official Shrine to Saint Anthony for the Archdiocese of Baltimore, the nation's premier see. A large relic of Saint Anthony was donated to the Shrine in 1995 by the friars in Padua as well as copies of 13 original paintings detailing particularly important moments in the life of St. Anthony. The Shrine of Saint Anthony is modeled upon the "Sacro Convento" in Assisi, Italy and situated upon land once owned by Charles Carroll III, the only Catholic signer of the Declaration of Independence. In addition to daily Mass and regular confession schedule, the Shrine of St. Anthony also offers retreat spaces for outside guests and hosts an annual pilgrimage in mid-June in honor of the Feast Day of St. Anthony of Padua.

*Brazil and Europe*




Santo Antônio (Saint Anthony) Church in Teresópolis, Brazil
Saint Anthony is known in Portugal, Spain and Brazil as a marriage saint, because there are legends of him reconciling couples. His feast day, 13 June, is Lisbon's municipal holiday, celebrated with parades and marriages. (The previous day, 12 June, is the Brazilian Valentine's Day.) He is one of the saints celebrated in the Brazilian Festa Junina (also known as the "Santo Antônio"), along with John the Baptist and Saint Peter.

In the town of Brusciano, Italy, located near Naples, an annual feast in honor of Saint Anthony is held in late August. This tradition dates back to 1875. The tradition started when a man prayed to Saint Anthony for his sick son to get better. He vowed that if his son would become healthy that he would build and dance a Giglio like the people of Nola do for their patron San Paolino during the annual Fest Dei Gigli. The celebration has grown over the years to include 6 Giglio towers built in honor of the saint. This tradition has also carried over to America, specifically the East Harlem area of New York where the immigrants from the town of Brusciano formed the Giglio Society of East Harlem and have been holding their annual feast since the early 1900s.

In Poland he is the patron saint of Przeworsk. In local Franciscan church is housed icon of Saint Anthony from 1649. Each Tuesday are celebrated traditional prayers with responsorium Si quaeris.

*Asia*




St. Anthony of Padua in St. Joseph's Church, Macao
Devotion to Saint Anthony is popular throughout all of India. In Uvari, in Tamil Nadu, India, the church of Saint Anthony is home to an ancient wooden statue that is said to have cured the entire crew of a Portuguese ship suffering from cholera. Saint Anthony is said to perform many miracles daily, and Uvari is visited by pilgrims of different religions from all over South India. Christians in Tamil Nadu have great reverence for Saint Anthony and he is a popular saint there, where he is called "The Miracle Saint."

Also in India, a small crusady known with the name of saint Anthony located in the village called pothiyanvilai, state of Tamil Nadu kanyakumari district near Thengapattinam,where thousands of devotees attending every Tuesdays and Friday to receive his blessings, miracles and guidings directly from St.Anthonys soul entering in the body of a holy person for the last 34 years. The southern Indian state of Karnataka is also a holy pilgrimage center in honor of Saint Anthony (specifically located in the small village of Dornahalli, near Mysore). Local lore holds that a farmer there unearthed a statue that was later identified as being that of Saint Anthony. The statue was deemed miraculous and an incident of divine intervention. A church was then erected to honor the saint. Additionally, Saint Anthony is highly venerated in Sri Lanka, and the nation's Saint Anthony National Shrine in Kochikade, Colombo, receives many devotees of Saint Anthony—both Catholic and non-Catholic.

In Siolim, a village in the Indian state of Goa, St. Anthony is always shown holding a serpent on a stick . This is a depiction of the incident which occurred during the construction of the church wherein a snake was disrupting construction work. The people turned to St. Anthony for help, and placed his statue at the construction site. The next morning, the snake was found caught in the cord placed in the statue's hand.[15]


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## kanozas

"Everyone is a child of G-d, no matter who they are, no matter what they have done, no their political persuasion, no matter what religion they are...everybody is worthwhile..."

This is what Our Lady reminds us and calls us to.  We are all brothers, even non-christians.


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## kanozas

_Most holy apostle, St. Jude, faithful servant and friend of Jesus, the Church honors and
invokes you universally as the patron of hope. Please intercede on my behalf. Make use of that particular privilege given to you to bring hope, comfort, and help where they are needed most. Come to my assistance in this great need that I may receive the consolation and help of heaven as I work with my challenges, particularly for the grace of faith, hope, courage and wisdom. I praise God with you and all the saints forever. I promise, blessed St. Jude, to be ever mindful of this great favor, to always honor you as my special and powerful patron and to gratefully encourage devotion to you. Amen.
May the Most Sacred Heart of Jesus be adored, and loved in all the tabernacles until the end of time. Amen. May the most Sacred Heart of Jesus be praised and glorified now and forever. Amen St. Jude pray for us and hear our prayers. Amen. Blessed be the Sacred Heart of Jesus. Blessed be the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Blessed be St. Jude Thaddeus, in all the world and for all Eternity. Amen.
For the intentions of those who have no hope, for those who are sick and living in spiritual and material poverty…
For the intentions of those without a job and means of income and those living in a state of depression, and frustration…
For the intentions of those leading a sinful life and a life without conscience.. For Hardened sinners, criminals, warlords and those perpetuating violence and crime, that they may be lead into repentance.
For the intentions of the youth of this world, for the grace of purity and deep holiness and for a deliverance from the current vices of this world - drugs, alchohol, pornography, fornication, violence and all forms of sexual immorality.
For the families around the world, that the works of the enemy against family the domestic church will be defeated and that all the families stay united in love.
For all the leaders in our political, social, military, beuraucracy, corporate, law enforcement and legislative systems that each one of them may be filled with the Holy Spirit..
For the Holy Catholic Church the Pope, the Cardinals, the Curia, the Bishops, the priests and all the religious and seminarians to be protected and filled with the Holy Spirit
For all the non Christians, that they will come to the light of Christ and for peace, love and unity among all religions and denominations.
For all the souls in purgatory and all the people living and dying today, that they will be saved by the loving kindness and mercies of God.
Having prayed for the intentions of the world, we now turn to St Jude and repeat this invocation 9 times being confident about the special intention we are praying for and also for the gift of courage, hope, faith and wisdom to submit and to discern the will of God._


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## kanozas

_Are you worried? Meditate on these words of Our Lady of Guadalupe to Saint Juan Diego... Spend an hour with the Mother of God, exchanging your pain, ailment, worries and anxieties.... And sow YOUR seed for Global Evangelization, through none better than the Star of Evangelization..

Background music : Pater Noster, Ave Maria sung by Saint Pope John Paul II
========================================

======
"Let not your heart be disturbed. 
Do not fear any sickness or anguish.
Am I not here, who is your Mother? 
Are you not under my protection?
Am I not your health? 
Are you not happily within my fold? 
What else do you wish? 
Do not grieve nor be disturbed by anything."

Let us Pray

Remember, O most gracious Virgin of Guadalupe, that in your apparitions on Mount Tepeyac you promised to show pity and compassion to all who, loving and trusting you, seek your help and protection. Accordingly, listen now to our supplications and grant us consolation and relief. We are full of hope that, relying on your help, nothing can trouble or affect us. As you have remained with us through your admirable image, so now obtain for us the graces we need. Amen

O Immaculate Virgin, Mother of the true God and Mother of the Church, reveal your clemency and your pity to all those who ask for your protection, hear the prayer that we address to you with filial trust, and present it to your Son Jesus, our sole Redeemer. O Empress of the Americas, Our Lady of Guadalupe I place before your gentle gaze - my own mother land, all of Latin America, North America and the Caribbean nations. By your pure and Immaculate Conception, O Mary, obtain a complete conversion of the Americas, Africa, Europe, Asia, Oceania and the whole world. Sweet Heart of Jesus and Mary, be the salvation of the Americas, Africa, Europe, Asia, Oceania and the whole world. Let the nations resonate the cry of the Martyrs – “Long live Christ the King and Mary of Guadalupe”




O Virgin Most Merciful, Our Lady of Guadalupe, grant us the grace of stability and help us firmly establish ourselves in this region forming part of the body of Christ, the Universal Catholic Church. O Mother of Good Counsel and Seat of Wisdom, Our Lady of Guadalupe grant us the wisdom, knowledge, understanding and power of discernment to carry out our daily duties with excellence and in accordance with the will of God. O Virgin Most Powerful and destroyer of heresies, Empress of the Americas, strengthen our hands and will to destroy the works of the devil, all his plots, plans and tricks. Amen._


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## kanozas

*Specific prayers and litanies for protection

*
_
_


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## Galadriel

LOVE this! I really enjoy the story of Our Lady of Guadalupe.



kanozas said:


> _Are you worried? Meditate on these words of Our Lady of Guadalupe to Saint Juan Diego... Spend an hour with the Mother of God, exchanging your pain, ailment, worries and anxieties.... And sow YOUR seed for Global Evangelization, through none better than the Star of Evangelization..
> 
> Background music : Pater Noster, Ave Maria sung by Saint Pope John Paul II
> ========================================
> 
> ======
> "Let not your heart be disturbed.
> Do not fear any sickness or anguish.
> Am I not here, who is your Mother?
> Are you not under my protection?
> Am I not your health?
> Are you not happily within my fold?
> What else do you wish?
> Do not grieve nor be disturbed by anything."
> 
> Let us Pray
> 
> Remember, O most gracious Virgin of Guadalupe, that in your apparitions on Mount Tepeyac you promised to show pity and compassion to all who, loving and trusting you, seek your help and protection. Accordingly, listen now to our supplications and grant us consolation and relief. We are full of hope that, relying on your help, nothing can trouble or affect us. As you have remained with us through your admirable image, so now obtain for us the graces we need. Amen
> 
> O Immaculate Virgin, Mother of the true God and Mother of the Church, reveal your clemency and your pity to all those who ask for your protection, hear the prayer that we address to you with filial trust, and present it to your Son Jesus, our sole Redeemer. O Empress of the Americas, Our Lady of Guadalupe I place before your gentle gaze - my own mother land, all of Latin America, North America and the Caribbean nations. By your pure and Immaculate Conception, O Mary, obtain a complete conversion of the Americas, Africa, Europe, Asia, Oceania and the whole world. Sweet Heart of Jesus and Mary, be the salvation of the Americas, Africa, Europe, Asia, Oceania and the whole world. Let the nations resonate the cry of the Martyrs – “Long live Christ the King and Mary of Guadalupe”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> O Virgin Most Merciful, Our Lady of Guadalupe, grant us the grace of stability and help us firmly establish ourselves in this region forming part of the body of Christ, the Universal Catholic Church. O Mother of Good Counsel and Seat of Wisdom, Our Lady of Guadalupe grant us the wisdom, knowledge, understanding and power of discernment to carry out our daily duties with excellence and in accordance with the will of God. O Virgin Most Powerful and destroyer of heresies, Empress of the Americas, strengthen our hands and will to destroy the works of the devil, all his plots, plans and tricks. Amen._


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## Lucia

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/pray-more-novenas-podcast/id1041832266?mt=2&i=369949632


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## Lucia

http://www.traditionalsermons.com


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## kanozas

Random which I'll replace sometime with a novena:

I dread the BENCH at reconciliation at this one convenient parish I go to just for the sacrament.  Why?  Two long benches and most people don't go to the second one with the other Fr., they just stay crowded at the first then they look at you like you stepped before them when the second emptier bench people get in and out faster.  Sigh.  Also, rather than just standing or remaining seated when there is no long line of people trying to sit down, they get up and move and sit back down with EACH person whose turn it is.  For 10 people sitting on that bench, you're standing up and moving 10 times.  Sometimes, I'd rather just stay seated with the gap...then someone will glance like, "hey, move up here, " and nobody else is trying to be seated.  I thought about the other parish on the way to shopping where the family listens in on the confessions because they sit right outside the confessional.  Eh, the strange things in Pgh. lol.


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## kanozas

http://ncronline.org/news/vatican/too-many-couples-do-not-understand-marriage-life-pope-says
*Too many couples do not understand marriage is for life, pope says*







Pope Francis speaks during the opening of the Rome diocese’s annual pastoral conference at the Basilica of St. John Lateran in Rome June 16. (CNS/Tony Gentile, Reuters)
Cindy Wooden Catholic News Service   |  Jun. 18, 2016

PrintemailPDF
Because most people today do not understand that sacramental marriage really is a bond that binds them to each other for life, many marriages today can be considered invalid, Pope Francis said.

Raising a point he has raised before, and one also raised by now-retired Pope Benedict XVI, Pope Francis insisted June 16 that the validity of a marriage implies that a couple understands that sacramental marriage is a bond that truly binds them to another for their entire lives.

"We are living in a culture of the provisional," he told participants in the Rome diocese's annual pastoral conference.

Answering questions after giving a prepared talk, Pope Francis told the story of a bishop who said a university graduate came to him saying he wanted to be a priest, but only for 10 years.

The idea of commitments being temporary "occurs everywhere, even in priestly and religious life. The provisional. And for this reason a large majority of sacramental marriages are null. They say 'yes, for my whole life,' but they do not know what they are saying because they have a different culture," he said.

As we mark the one-year anniversary of _Laudato Si, _be sure to download_ NCR_'s readers' guide to the encyclical here.





The Vatican press office, publishing a transcript the next day, adjusted the pope's words to read, "A part of our sacramental marriages are null because they (the spouses) say, 'Yes, for my whole life,' but they do not know what they are saying because they have a different culture."

Jesuit Fr. Federico Lombardi, Vatican spokesman, said transcripts of the pope's off-the-cuff remarks always are reviewed for precision and clarity prior to publication. "When dealing with particularly important topics, the revised text always is given to the pope himself. That happened in this case, therefore the published text was approved expressly by the pope."

Attitudes toward marriage are influenced strongly by social expectations, the pope said, telling the story of a young man who told the pope he and his fiancee had not celebrated their wedding yet because they were looking for a church with decor that would go well with her dress. "These are people's concerns," the pope said. "How can we change this? I don't know."

Pope Francis told participants that when he was archbishop of Buenos Aires, Argentina, he banned "shotgun weddings" from Catholic parishes because the strong social pressure to marry placed on a couple expecting a baby could mean they were not fully free to pledge themselves to each other for life through the sacrament.

It was important, he said, that the couples were not abandoned, but were assisted by the church. Many of them, he said, "after two or three years would marry. I would watch them enter the church -- dad, mom and the child holding their hands. They knew well what they were doing."

"The crisis of marriage is because people do not know what the sacrament is, the beauty of the sacrament; they do not know that it is indissoluble, that it is for one's entire life," he said. "It's difficult."

Meeting in July 2005 with priests in northern Italy, Pope Benedict also raised the question of the validity of marriages that, while performed in church, bound together two baptized Catholics who had little understanding of the faith, the meaning of the sacraments and the indissolubility of marriage.

Asked about Communion for a divorced and civilly remarried person, Pope Benedict had responded, "I would say that a particularly painful situation is that of those who were married in the church, but were not really believers and did so just for tradition, and then finding themselves in a new, nonvalid marriage, convert, find the faith and feel excluded from the sacrament."

Pope Benedict said that when he was prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith he asked several bishops' conferences and experts to study the problem, which in effect was "a sacrament celebrated without faith."

He said he had thought that the church marriage could be considered invalid because the faith of the couple celebrating the sacrament was lacking. "But from the discussions we had, I understood that the problem was very difficult" and that further study was necessary.

According to the Code of Canon Law, "For matrimonial consent to exist, the contracting parties must be at least not ignorant that marriage is a permanent partnership between a man and a woman ordered to the procreation of offspring by means of some sexual cooperation."

In a formal speech in 2015 to the Roman Rota, a marriage tribunal, Pope Francis said: "The judge, in pondering the validity of the consent expressed, must take into account the context of values and of faith -- their presence or absence -- in which the intent to marry was formed. In fact, ignorance of the contents of the faith could lead to what the code (of canon law) calls an error conditioning the will. This eventuality is not to be considered rare as in the past, precisely because worldly thinking often prevails over the magisterium of the church."

*Too many couples do not understand marriage is for life, pope says*






Pope Francis speaks during the opening of the Rome diocese’s annual pastoral conference at the Basilica of St. John Lateran in Rome June 16. (CNS/Tony Gentile, Reuters)
Cindy Wooden Catholic News Service   |  Jun. 18, 2016

PrintemailPDF
Because most people today do not understand that sacramental marriage really is a bond that binds them to each other for life, many marriages today can be considered invalid, Pope Francis said.

Raising a point he has raised before, and one also raised by now-retired Pope Benedict XVI, Pope Francis insisted June 16 that the validity of a marriage implies that a couple understands that sacramental marriage is a bond that truly binds them to another for their entire lives.

"We are living in a culture of the provisional," he told participants in the Rome diocese's annual pastoral conference.

Answering questions after giving a prepared talk, Pope Francis told the story of a bishop who said a university graduate came to him saying he wanted to be a priest, but only for 10 years.

The idea of commitments being temporary "occurs everywhere, even in priestly and religious life. The provisional. And for this reason a large majority of sacramental marriages are null. They say 'yes, for my whole life,' but they do not know what they are saying because they have a different culture," he said.

As we mark the one-year anniversary of _Laudato Si, _be sure to download_ NCR_'s readers' guide to the encyclical here.





The Vatican press office, publishing a transcript the next day, adjusted the pope's words to read, "A part of our sacramental marriages are null because they (the spouses) say, 'Yes, for my whole life,' but they do not know what they are saying because they have a different culture."

Jesuit Fr. Federico Lombardi, Vatican spokesman, said transcripts of the pope's off-the-cuff remarks always are reviewed for precision and clarity prior to publication. "When dealing with particularly important topics, the revised text always is given to the pope himself. That happened in this case, therefore the published text was approved expressly by the pope."

Attitudes toward marriage are influenced strongly by social expectations, the pope said, telling the story of a young man who told the pope he and his fiancee had not celebrated their wedding yet because they were looking for a church with decor that would go well with her dress. "These are people's concerns," the pope said. "How can we change this? I don't know."

Pope Francis told participants that when he was archbishop of Buenos Aires, Argentina, he banned "shotgun weddings" from Catholic parishes because the strong social pressure to marry placed on a couple expecting a baby could mean they were not fully free to pledge themselves to each other for life through the sacrament.

It was important, he said, that the couples were not abandoned, but were assisted by the church. Many of them, he said, "after two or three years would marry. I would watch them enter the church -- dad, mom and the child holding their hands. They knew well what they were doing."

"The crisis of marriage is because people do not know what the sacrament is, the beauty of the sacrament; they do not know that it is indissoluble, that it is for one's entire life," he said. "It's difficult."

Meeting in July 2005 with priests in northern Italy, Pope Benedict also raised the question of the validity of marriages that, while performed in church, bound together two baptized Catholics who had little understanding of the faith, the meaning of the sacraments and the indissolubility of marriage.

Asked about Communion for a divorced and civilly remarried person, Pope Benedict had responded, "I would say that a particularly painful situation is that of those who were married in the church, but were not really believers and did so just for tradition, and then finding themselves in a new, nonvalid marriage, convert, find the faith and feel excluded from the sacrament."

Pope Benedict said that when he was prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith he asked several bishops' conferences and experts to study the problem, which in effect was "a sacrament celebrated without faith."

He said he had thought that the church marriage could be considered invalid because the faith of the couple celebrating the sacrament was lacking. "But from the discussions we had, I understood that the problem was very difficult" and that further study was necessary.

According to the Code of Canon Law, "For matrimonial consent to exist, the contracting parties must be at least not ignorant that marriage is a permanent partnership between a man and a woman ordered to the procreation of offspring by means of some sexual cooperation."

In a formal speech in 2015 to the Roman Rota, a marriage tribunal, Pope Francis said: "The judge, in pondering the validity of the consent expressed, must take into account the context of values and of faith -- their presence or absence -- in which the intent to marry was formed. In fact, ignorance of the contents of the faith could lead to what the code (of canon law) calls an error conditioning the will. This eventuality is not to be considered rare as in the past, precisely because worldly thinking often prevails over the magisterium of the church."


----------



## Lucia

Source: 
http://www.aboutcatholics.com/beliefs/can-catholics-believe-in-horoscopes/

*Can Catholics Believe in Horoscopes?*
BY ANDRES ORTIZ // 15 COMMENTS

Horoscopes are a means of attempting to know the future through an astrologer’s interpretation of Sun sign astrology. The Catholic Church teaches against the use of horoscopes and other such fortune-telling practices such as astrology, palm reading, clairvoyance, ouija boards, and mediums because they attempt to take the place of God.

Some of these things use evil as the source of their power, others are based on mathematical formulas, and still others are people simply looking to make a quick profit from willing seekers.



The Catechism of the Catholic Church states,

“All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to ‘unveil’ the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.”

_Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 2116_

By consulting a horoscope to show ourselves the path for our day we usurp the place of God in whose hands we should place our concerns allowing him to lead us down the path of holiness in discerning his will for us. Astrology, fortune-telling, tarot cards, and the like are no replacement for God’s providence.

“God can reveal the future to his prophets or to other saints. Still, a sound Christian attitude consists in putting oneself confidently into the hands of Providence for whatever concerns the future, and giving up all unhealthy curiosity about it. Improvidence, however, can constitute a lack of responsibility.”

_Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 2115_

*What should I do if I have read a horoscope or visited a fortune-teller?*
If you have been consulting your horoscope, visited a fortune-teller, involved in conjuring spirits, or used a ouija board you should go to confession as soon as you can. These acts may be mortal sins or they may be venial sins depending on the circumstances, but nonetheless they are considered sin and require repentance.

Before going to confession be sure to do a full examination of conscience so that you may make a full and good confession.
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Ironic that the ads that come up are astrologers and clairvoyants. 
The responses are really good some good responses to throw lost in the lie. 

Like this response 

A horoscope does not predict the future. In the context of a unique life, it is a useful tool to explore the disposition and character of a person, so that better choices can be made for their own good and the good of others. Astrologers do not claim to usurp God’s Providence. On the contrary, they honour the hope
that positive change is possible for everyone in all circumstances – provided that a person choses wisely,
with gratitude for the opportunity to do so. The aim of the astrological process is to uplift the human spirit in an acknowledgement that each person is accounted for – and will be held accountable in a higher scheme
we do not fully understand, but hold in majesty. It is true that astrology is an imperfect discipline and not
all astrologers have integrity. Perfection in our world remains an aspiration. Knowledge can be abused.
However, this does not invalidate either the ideal or respect for authority. An informed, measured review
of astrology is overdue in the interest of truth. Seeking truth is a noble undertaking for all moral people.

Phyllis 

Responses to above 

“In the context of a unique life, it is a useful tool to explore the disposition and character of a person, so that better choices can be made for their own good and the good of others.”

This seems rather contrary to Catholicism in which believers are to discern through prayer the will of God for one’s own life. Looking to the alignment of galactic bodies does not accomplish this, but rather attempts to replace God with a pseudo-science for guidance in one’s life. This is hardly compatible with Catholic teaching.

Another response 

Phyllis, you are wrong on several counts.

Firstly, astrology CAN be used to make accurate predictions, usually in great detail. The problem is not whether astrology can deliver accurate predictions; the problem lies in error and in the risk of creating despair. Even the best predictive astrology is no more than 80% accurate, and may omit many things of importance. Relying on such a prediction could easily bring disaster.

Despair is the biggest danger, though. Astrology can induce fatalism that destroys people’s confidence in their power of choice. I’ve never seen anyone benefit from predictive astrology.

There is a mystical Jewish idea that those who seek the advice of astrologers are then bound to live out the prediction. It’s their punishment. In other words, having demanded to be ruled by the stars, God grants them their desire. This alone should give people pause when they want to know what their “stars” hold for them.

Astrology tries to replace God with signs and talk of planetary “energy”. The idea of God horrifies them. They worship the works of God, but disdain to worship God. Astrology has become the province of New Agers, who cannot bear to recognize Almighty God and instead talk about decoys like the Universe, the Divine, and so on.

Two things stand out among astrologers. One is their addiction to astrology. It has a tendency to take over the lives of people who get involved in it and become a religion. It’s a form of star-worship, of worshipping idols. Hand in hand with this is that modern astrologers tend to be hostile to Christianity, Judaism and Islam.

Secondly, modern astrology is useless as a serious tool for improvement. Modern astrologers have done away with the fundamental ideas of good and bad, right and wrong, and their astrology has no tools at all for identifying bad behaviors and correcting them. There is nothing psychological at all about modern astrology: it’s all about flattery and instead of psychology it gives partial readings of personality. I’ve never seen an astrology book or reading that tells someone they habitually lie, that they’re lazy, that they cheat, and so on. No astrology chart reading will help cure an alcoholic or a compulsive gambler; heal an anxiety disorder; or treat mental illness. And since astrologers reject the ideas of virtue and sin, they cannot even come to grips with the fundamentals of good character and moral choices. Astrologers are professional flatterers, reassuring their readers and clients how unique and interesting they are—while taking their money. And if astrologers were honest with themselves, they’d see that they enjoy having power over their clients and being the “priest” who tells their clients what the “stars” hold for them. It’s a power trip.

I have never seen anyone benefit from astrology. On the other hand, many people have been led to waste time and money, make bad choices, and avoid therapy and even avoid God and the Church because of astrology. Many others have been led to despair and fatalism, or into occult practices.

Astrology has long been regarded as an evil. It’s an enticing evil, and seems to hold the answers, but it’s a dead-end. It’s a wide, smooth road leading to misery and waste.


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## kanozas

St. Augustine:  Exposition on Psalm 91    (to read Psalm 91 Here)

*Exposition on Psalm 91*
1. This Psalm is that from which the Devil dared to tempt our Lord Jesus Christ: let us therefore attend to it, that thus armed, we may be enabled to resist the tempter, not presuming in ourselves, but in Him who before us was tempted, that we might not be overcome when tempted. Temptation to Him was not necessary: the temptation of Christ is our learning, but if we listen to His answers to the devil, in order that, when ourselves are tempted, we may answer in like manner, we are then entering through the gate, as you have heard it read in the Gospel. For what is to enter by the gate? To enter by Christ, who Himself said, I am the door: John 10:7 and to enter through Christ, is to imitate His ways....He urges us to imitate Him in those works which He could not have done had He not been made Man; for how could He endure sufferings, unless He had become a Man? How could He otherwise have died, been crucified, been humbled? Thus then do thou, when you suffer the troubles of this world, which the devil, openly by men, or secretly, as in Job's case, inflicts; be courageous, be of long suffering; you shall dwell under the defence of the Most High, as this Psalm expresses it: for if you depart from the help of the Most High, without strength to aid yourself, you will fall.

2. For many men are brave, when they are enduring persecution from men, and see them openly rage against themselves: imagining they are then imitating the sufferings of Christ, in case men openly persecute them; but if assailed by the hidden attack of the devil, they believe they are not being crowned by Christ. Never fear when thou dost imitate Christ. For when the devil tempted our Lord, there was no man in the wilderness; he tempted Him secretly; but he was conquered, and conquered too when openly attacking Him. This do thou, if you wish to enter by the door, when the enemy secretly assails you, when he asks for a man that he may do him some hurt by bodily troubles, by fever, by sickness, or any other bodily sufferings, like those of Job. He saw not the devil, yet he acknowledged the power of God. He knew that the devil had no power against him, unless from the Almighty Ruler of all things he received that power: the whole glory he gave to God, power to the devil he gave not....

3. He then who so imitates Christ as to endure all the troubles of this world, with his hopes set upon God, that he falls into no snare, is broken down by no panic fears, he it is who dwells under the defence of the Most High, who shall abide under the protection of God Psalm 90:1, in the words with which the Psalm, which you have heard and sung, begins. You will recognise the words, so well known, in which the devil tempted our Lord, when we come to them. He shall say unto the Lord, You are my taker up, and my refuge: my God Psalm 90:2. Who speaks thus to the Lord? He who dwells under the defence of the Most High: not under his own defence. Who is this? He dwells under the defence of the Most High, who is not proud, like those who ate, that they might become as Gods, and lost the immortality in which they were made. For they chose to dwell under a defence of their own, not under that of the Most High: thus they listened to the suggestions of the serpent, Genesis 3:5 and despised the precept of God: and discovered at last that what God threatened, not what the devil promised, had come to pass in them.

4. Thus then do thou say also, In Him will I trust. For He Himself shall deliver me Psalm 90:3, not I myself. Observe whether he teaches anything but this, that all our trust be in God, none in man. Whence shall he deliver you? From the snare of the hunter, and from a harsh word. Deliverance from the hunter's net is indeed a great blessing: but how is deliverance from a harsh word so? Many have fallen into the hunter's net through a harsh word. What is it that I say? The devil and his angels spread their snares, as hunters do: and those who walk in Christ tread afar from those snares: for he dares not spread his net in Christ: he sets it on the verge of the way, not in the way. Let then your way be Christ, and you shall not fall into the snares of the devil....

But what is, from a harsh word? The devil has entrapped many by a harsh word: for instance, those who profess Christianity among Pagans suffer insult from the heathen: they blush when they hear reproach, and shrinking out of their path in consequence, fall into the hunter's snares. And yet what will a harsh word do to you? Nothing. Can the snares with which the enemy entraps you by means of reproaches, do nothing to you? Nets are usually spread for birds at the end of a hedge, and stones are thrown into the hedge: those stones will not harm the birds. When did any one ever hit a bird by throwing a stone into a hedge? But the bird, frightened at the harmless noise, falls into the nets; and thus men who fear the vain reproaches of their calumniators, and who blush at unprovoked insults, fall into the snares of the hunters, and are taken captive by the devil...Just as among the heathen, the Christian who fears their reproaches falls into the snare of the hunter: so among the Christians, those who endeavour to be more diligent and better than the rest, are doomed to bear insults from Christians themselves. What then does it profit, my brother, if you occasionally find a city in which there is no heathen? No one there insults a man because he is a Christian, for this reason, that there is no Pagan therein: but there are many Christians who lead a bad life, among whom those who are resolved to live righteously, and to be sober among the drunken, and chaste among the unchaste, and amid the consulters of astrologers sincerely to worship God, and to ask after no such things, and among spectators of frivolous shows will go only to church, suffer from those very Christians reproaches, and harsh words, when they address such a one, You are the mighty, the righteous, you are Elias, you are Peter: you have come from heaven. They insult him: whichever way he turns, he hears harsh sayings on each side: and if he fears, and abandons the way of Christ, he falls into the snares of the hunters. But what is it, when he hears such words, not to swerve from the way? On hearing them, what comfort has he, which prevents his heeding them, and enables him to enter by the door? Let him say; What words am I called, who am a servant and a sinner? To my Lord Jesus they said, You have a devil. John 8:48 You have just heard the harsh words spoken against our Lord: it was not necessary for our Lord to suffer this, but in doing so He has warned you against harsh words, lest you fall into the snares of the hunters.

5. He shall defend you between His shoulders, and you shall hope under His wings Psalm 90:4. He says this, that your protection may not be to you from yourself, that you may not imagine that you can defend yourself; He will defend you, to deliver you from the hunter's snare, and from an harsh word. The expression, between His shoulders, may be understood both in front and behind: for the shoulders are about the head; but in the words, you shall hope under His wings, it is clear that the protection of the wings of God expanded places you between His shoulders, so that God's wings on this side and that have you in the midst, where you shall not fear lest any one hurt you: only be thou careful never to leave that spot, where no foe dares approach. If the hen defends her chickens beneath her wings; how much more shall you be safe beneath the wings of God, even against the devil and his angels, the powers who fly about in mid air like hawks, to carry off the weak young one? For the comparison of the hen to the very Wisdom of God is not without ground; for Christ Himself, our Lord and Saviour, speaks of Himself as likened to a hen; how often would I have gathered your children, etc. Matthew 23:37 That Jerusalem would not: let us be willing....If you consider other birds, brethren, you will find many that hatch their eggs, and keep their young warm: but none that weakens herself in sympathy with her chickens, as the hen does. We see swallows, sparrows, and storks outside their nests, without being able to decide whether they have young or no: but we know the hen to be a mother by the weakness of her voice, and the loosening of her feathers: she changes altogether from love for her chickens: she weakens herself because they are weak. Thus since we were weak, the Wisdom of God made Itself weak, when the Word was made flesh, and dwelt in us, John 1:14 that we might hope under His wings.

6. His truth shall surround you with a shield Psalm 90:5. What are the wings, the same is the shield: since there are neither wings nor shield. If either were literally, how could the one be the same as the other? Can wings be a shield or a shield wings? But all these expressions, indeed, are figuratively used through likenesses. If Christ were really a Stone, Acts 4:10-11 He could not be a Lion; if a Lion, Revelation 5:5 He could not be a Lamb: but He is called both Lion, and Lamb, John 1:29 and Stone, and Calf, and anything else of the sort, metaphorically, because He is neither Stone, nor Lion, nor Lamb, nor Calf, but Jesus Christ, the Saviour of all of us, for these are likenesses, not literal names. His truth shall be your shield, it is said: a shield to assure us that He will not confound those whose trust is in themselves with those who hope in God. One is a sinner, and the other a sinner: but suppose one that presumes upon himself is a despiser, confesses not his sins, and he will say, if my sins displeased God, He would not suffer me to live. But another dared not even raise his eyes, but beat upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. Luke 18:13 Both this was a sinner, and that: but the one mocked, the other mourned: the one was a despiser, the other a confessor, of his sins. But the truth of God, which respects not persons, discerns the penitent from him who denies his sin, the humble from the proud, him who presumes upon himself from him who presumes on God. You shall not be afraid for any terror by night.

7. Nor for the arrow that flies by day, for the matter that walks in darkness, nor for the ruin and the devil that is in the noonday Psalm 90:6. These two clauses above correspond to the two below; You shall not fear for the terror by night, from the arrow that flies by day: both because of the terror by night, from the matter that walks in darkness: and because of the arrow that flies by day, from the ruin of the devil of the noon-day. What ought to be feared by night, and what by day? When any man sins in ignorance, he sins, as it were, by night: when he sins in full knowledge, by day. The two former sins then are the lighter: the second are much heavier; but this is obscure, and will repay your attention, if, by God's blessing, I can explain it so that you may understand it. He calls the light temptation, which the ignorant yield to, terror by night: the light temptation, which assails men who well know, the arrow that flies by day. What are light temptations? Those which do not press upon us so urgently, as to overcome us, but may pass by quickly if declined. Suppose these, again, heavy ones. If the persecutor threatens, and frightens the ignorant grievously, I mean those whose faith is as yet unstable, and know not that they are Christians that they may hope for a life to come; as soon as they are alarmed with temporal ills, they imagine that Christ has forsaken them, and that they are Christians to no purpose; they are not aware that they are Christians for this reason, that they may conquer the present, and hope for the future: the matter that walks in darkness has found and seized them. But some there are who know that they are called to a future hope; that what God has promised is not of this life, or this earth; that all these temptations must be endured, that we may receive what God has promised us for evermore; all this they know: when however the persecutor urges them more strenuously, and plies them with threats, penalties, tortures, at length they yield, and although they are well aware of their sin, yet they fall as it were by day.

8. But why does he say, at noon-day? The persecution is very hot; and thus the noon signifies the excessive heat....The demon that is in the noon-day, represents the heat of a furious persecution: for these are our Lord's words, The sun was up; and because they had no root, they withered away: and when explaining it, He applies it to those who are offended when persecution arises, Because they have not root in themselves. We are therefore right in understanding by the demon that destroys in the noon-day, a violent persecution. Listen, beloved, while I describe the persecution, from which the Lord has rescued His Church. At first, when the emperors and kings of the world imagined that they could extirpate from the earth the Christian name by persecution, they proclaimed, that any one who confessed himself a Christian, should be smitten. He who did not choose to be smitten, denied that he was a Christian, knowing the sin he was committing: the arrow that flies by day reached him. But whoever regarded not the present life, but had a sure trust in a future one, avoided the arrow, by confessing himself a Christian; smitten in the flesh, he was liberated in the spirit: resting with God, he began peacefully to await the redemption of his body in the resurrection of the dead: he escaped from that temptation, from the arrow that flies by day. Whoever professes himself a Christian, let him be beheaded; was as the arrow that flies by day. The devil that is in the noon-day was not yet abroad, burning with a terrible persecution, and afflicting with great heat even the strong. For hear what followed; when the enemy saw that many were hastening to martyrdom, and that the number of fresh converts increased in proportion to that of the sufferers, they said among themselves, We shall annihilate the human race, so many thousands are there who believe in His Name; if we kill all of them, there will hardly be a survivor on earth. The sun then began to blaze, and to glow with a terrible heat. Their first edict had been, Whoever shall confess himself a Christian, let him be smitten. Their second edict was, Whoever shall have confessed himself a Christian, let him be tortured, and tortured even until he deny himself a Christian....Many therefore who denied not, failed amid the tortures; for they were tortured until they denied. But to those who persevered in professing Christ, what could the sword do, by killing the body at one stroke, and sending the soul to God? This was the result of protracted tortures also: yet who could be found able to resist such cruel and continued torments? Many failed: those, I believe, who presumed upon themselves, who dwelt not under the defence of the Most High, and under the shadow of the God of Heaven; who said not to the Lord, You are my lifter up: who trusted not beneath the shadow of His wings, but reposed much confidence in their own strength. They are thrown down by God, to show them that it is He that protects them, He overrules their temptations, He allows so much only to befall them, as each person can sustain.

9. Many then fell before the demon of the noon-day. Would ye know how many? He goes on, and says, A thousand shall fall beside you, and ten thousand at your right hand; but it shall not come near you Psalm 90:7. To whom, brethren, but to Christ Jesus, is this said?...For the members, the body, and the head, are not separate from one another: the body and the head are the Church and her Saviour. How then is it said, A thousand shall fall beside you, and ten thousand by your right hand? Because they shall fall before the devil, that destroys at noon. It is a terrible thing, my brethren, to fall from beside Christ, from His right hand but how shall they fall from beside Him? Why the one beside Him, the other at His right hand? Why a thousand beside Him, ten thousand at His right hand? Why a thousand beside Him? Because a thousand are fewer than the ten thousand who shall fall at His right hand. Who these are will soon be clear in Christ's name; for to some He promised that they should judge with Him, namely, to the Apostles, who left all things, and followed Him....Those judges then are the heads of the Church, the perfect. To such He said, If you will be perfect, go and sell that you have, and give to the poor. Matthew 19:21 What means the expression, if you will be perfect? It means, if you will judge with Me, and not be judged....Many such at that period, who had distributed their all to the poor, and already promised themselves a seat beside Christ in judgment of the nations, failed amid their torments under the blazing fire of persecution, as before the demon of the noon-day, and denied Christ. These are they who have fallen beside Him: when about to sit with Christ for the judgment of the world, they fell.

10. I will now explain who are they who fall on the right hand of Christ....And because many have fallen from that hope of being judges, but yet many, many more from that of being on His right hand, the Psalmist thus addresses Christ, A thousand shall fall beside You, and ten thousand at Your right hand. And since there shall be many, who regarded not all these things, with whom, as it were with His own limbs, Christ is one, he adds, But it shall not come near You. Were these words addressed to the Head alone? Surely not; surely neither (does it come near) to Paul, nor Peter, nor all the Apostles, nor all the Martyrs, who failed not in their torments. What then do the words, it shall not come near, mean? Why were they thus tortured? The torture came near the flesh, but it did not reach the region of faith. Their faith then was far beyond the reach of the terrors threatened by their torturers. Let them torture, terror will not come near; let them torture, but they will mock the torture, putting their trust in Him who conquered before them, that the rest might conquer. And who conquer, except they who trust not in themselves?...Who will not fear? He who trusts not in himself, but in Christ. But those who trust in themselves, although they even hope to judge at the side of Christ, although they hoped they should be at His right hand, as if He said to them, Come, you blessed of My Father, etc.; yet the devil that is at noon overtook them, the raging heat of persecution, terrifying with violence; and many fell from the hope of the seat of judgment, of whom it is said, A thousand shall fall beside you; many too fell from the hope of reward for their duties, of whom it was said, And ten thousand at your right hand. But this downfall and devil that is at noon-day shall not come near you, that is, the Head and the body; for the Lord knows who are His. 2 Timothy 2:19

11. Nevertheless, with your eyes shall you behold, and see the reward of the ungodly Psalm 90:8. What is this? Why nevertheless? Because the wicked were allowed to tyrannize over Your servants, and to persecute them. Will they then have been allowed to persecute Your servants with impunity? Not with impunity, for although You have permitted them, and Your own have thence received a brighter crown, nevertheless, etc. For the evil which they willed, not the good they unconsciously were the agents of, will be recompensed them. All that is wanting is the eye of faith, by which we may see that they are raised for a time only, while they shall mourn for evermore; and to those into whose hands is given temporal power over the servants of God, it shall be said, Depart into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41 But if every man have but eyes in the sense in which it is said, With your eyes shall you behold, it is no unimportant thing to look upon the wicked flourishing in this life, and to have an eye to him, to consider what will become of him in the end, if he fail to reform his ways: for those who now would thunder upon others, will afterwards feel the thunderbolt themselves.

12. For Thou, Lord, art my hope Psalm 90:9. He has now come to the power Which rescues him from falling by the downfall and the devil of the noon-day. For Thou, Lord, art my hope: You have set Your house of defence very high. What do the words very high mean? For many make their house of defence in God a mere refuge from temporal persecution; but the defence of God is on high, and very secret, whither you may fly from the wrath to come. Within You have set your house of defence very high. There shall no evil happen unto You: neither shall any plague come near Your dwelling Psalm 90:10.

13. The Holy City is not the Church of this country only, but of the whole world as well: not that of this age only, but from Abel himself down to those who shall to the end be born and believe in Christ, the whole assembly of the Saints, belonging to one city; which city is Christ's body, of which Christ is the Head. There, too, dwell the Angels, who are our fellow citizens: we toil, because we are as yet pilgrims: while they within that city are awaiting our arrival. Letters have reached us too from that city, apart from which we are wandering: those letters are the Scriptures, which exhort us to live well. Why do I speak of letters only? The King himself descended, and became a path to us in our wanderings: that walking in Him, we may neither stray, nor faint nor fall among robbers, nor be caught in the snares that are set near our path. This character, then, we recognise in the whole Person of Christ, together with the Church....He Himself is our Head, He is God, co-equal with the Father, the Word of God, by whom all things were made: John 1:3 but God to create, Man to renew; God to make, Man to restore. Looking upon Him, then, let us hear the Psalm. Listen, beloved. This is the teaching and doctrine of this school, which may enable you to understand, not this Psalm only, but many, if you keep in mind this rule. Sometimes a Psalm, and all prophecy as well, in speaking of Christ, praises the Head alone, and sometimes from the Head goes to the Body, that is, the Church, and without apparently changing the Person spoken of: because the Head is not separate from the Body, and both are spoken of as one...

14. What then, my brethren, what is said of our Head? For Thou, Lord, art my hope, etc. Of this we have spoken, for He has given His angels charge over You, to keep You in all Your ways Psalm 90:11. You heard these words but now, when the Gospel was being read; attend therefore. Our Lord, after He was baptized, fasted. Why was He baptized? That we might not scorn to be baptized. For when John said to our Lord, Comest Thou to me to be baptized? I ought to be baptized by You; and our Lord replied, Suffer it to be so now, for thus it becomes us to fulfil all righteousness; Matthew 3:14-15 He wished to fulfil all humility, so that He should be washed, who had no defilement....Our Lord, then, was baptized, and after baptism He was tempted; He fasted forty days, a number which has, as I have often mentioned, a deep meaning. All things cannot be explained at once, lest needful time be too much taken up. After forty days He was an hungred. He could have fasted without ever feeling hunger; but then how could He be tempted? Or had He not overcome the tempter, how couldest thou learn to struggle with him? He was hungry; and then the tempter said, If Thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. Was it a great thing for our Lord Jesus Christ to make bread out of stones, when He satisfied so many thousands with five loaves? He made bread out of nothing. For whence came that quantity of food, which could satisfy so many thousands? The sources of that bread are in the Lord's hands. This is nothing wonderful; for He Himself made out of five loaves bread enough for so many thousands, who also every day out of a few seeds raises up on earth immense harvests. These are the miracles of our Lord: but from their constant operation they are disregarded. What then, my brethren, was it impossible for the Lord to create bread out of stones? He made men even out of stones, in the words of John the Baptist himself, God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. Matthew 3:9 Why then did He not so? That he might teach you how to answer the tempter, so that if you were reduced to any straits and the tempter suggested, if you were a Christian and belonged to Christ, would He desert you now?...Listen to our Lord: Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Do you think the word of God bread? If the Word of God, through which all things were made, was not bread, He would not say, I am the bread which came down from heaven. John 6:41 You have therefore learned to answer the tempter, when pressed with hunger.

15. What if he tempt you in these words: If you were a Christian, you would do miracles, as many Christians have done? You, deceived by a wicked suggestion, would tempt the Lord your God, so as to say to Him, If I am a Christian, and am before Your eyes, and Thou dost account me at all in the number of Your own, let me also do something like the many works which Your Saints have done. You have tempted God, as if you were not a Christian, unless you did this. Many who desired such things have fallen. For that Simon the sorcerer desired such gifts of the Apostles, when he wished to buy the Holy Spirit for money. Acts 8:18 He loved the power of working miracles, but loved not the imitation of humility....What then, if he tempt you thus, work miracles? That you may not tempt God, what should you answer? What our Lord answered. The devil said to Him, Cast Yourself down; for it is written, He shall give His Angels charge concerning You, etc. If You shall cast Yourself down, Angels shall receive You. And it might indeed, my brethren, happen, if our Lord had cast Himself down, the attending Angels would receive our Lord's flesh; but what does He say to him? It is written again, You shall not tempt the Lord your God. Deuteronomy 6:16 You think Me a man. For the devil came to Him with this view, that he might try whether He were the Son of God. He saw His Flesh; but His might appeared in His works: the Angels had borne witness. He saw that He was mortal, so that he might tempt Him, that by Christ's temptation the Christian might be taught. What then is written? You shall not tempt the Lord your God. Let us not then tempt the Lord, so as to say, If we belong to You, let us work a miracle.

16. Let us return to the words of the Psalm. They shall bear You in their hands, lest at any time Thou hurt Your foot against a stone Psalm 90:12. Christ was raised up in the hands of Angels, when He was taken up into heaven: not that, if Angels had not sustained Him, He would have fallen: but because they were attending on their King. Say not, Those who sustained Him are better than He who was sustained. Are then cattle better than men, because they sustain the weakness of men? And we ought not to speak thus either; for if the cattle withdraw their support, their riders fall. But how ought we to speak of it? For it is said even of God, Heaven is My throne. Because then heaven supports Him, and God sits thereon, is therefore heaven the better? Thus also in this Psalm we may understand it of the service of the Angels: it does not pertain to any infirmity in our Lord, but to the honour they pay, and to their service....What the finger of God is, the Gospel explains to us; for the finger of God is the Holy Ghost. How do we prove this? Our Lord, when answering those who accused Him of casting out devils in the name of Beelzebub, says, If I cast out devils by the Spirit of God; Matthew 12:28 and another Evangelist, in relating the same saying, says, If I with the finger of God cast out devils. Luke 11:20 What therefore is in one stated clearly, is darkly expressed in another. You did not know what was the finger of God, but another Evangelist explains it by terming it the Spirit of God. The Law then written by the finger of God was given on the fiftieth day after the slaughter of the lamb, and the Holy Ghost descended on the fiftieth day after the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ. The Lamb was slain, the Passover was celebrated, the fifty days were completed, and the Law was given. But that Law was to cause fear, not love: but that fear might be changed into love, He who was truly righteous was slain: of whom that lamb whom the Jews were slaying was the type. He arose from the dead: and from the day of our Lord's Passover, as from that of the slaying of the Paschal lamb, fifty days are counted; and the Holy Ghost descended, now in the fullness of love, not in the punishment of fear. Acts 2:1-4 Why have I said this? For this then our Lord arose, and was glorified, that He might send His Holy Spirit. And I said long ago that this was so, because His head is in heaven, His feet on earth. If His head is in heaven, His feet on earth; what means our Lord's feet on earth? Our Lord's saints on earth. Who are our Lord's feet? The Apostles sent throughout the whole world. Who are our Lord's feet? All the Evangelists, in whom our Lord travels over all nations....We need not therefore wonder that our Lord was raised up to heaven by the hands of Angels, that His foot might not dash against a stone: lest those who on earth toiled in His body, while they were travelling over the whole world might become guilty of the Law, He took from them fear, and filled them with love. Through fear Peter thrice denied Him, Matthew 26:69-75 for he had not yet received the Holy Ghost: afterwards, when he had received the Holy Spirit, he began to preach with confidence....Our Lord so dealt with him, as if He said, thrice you have denied Me through fear: thrice confess Me through love. With that love and that charity He filled His disciples. Why? Because He has set His house of defence very high: because when glorified He sent the Holy Ghost, He released the faithful from the guilt of the Law, that His feet might not dash against a stone.

17. Thou shall go upon the asp and the basilisk; the lion and the dragon shall you tread under your feet Psalm 90:13. You know who the serpent is, and how the Church treads upon him, as she is not conquered, because she is on her guard against his cunning. And after what manner he is a lion and a dragon, I believe you know also, beloved. The lion openly rages, the dragon lies secretly in covert: the devil has each of these forces and powers. When the Martyrs were being slain, it was the raging lion: when heretics are plotting, it is the dragon creeping beneath us. You have conquered the lion; conquer also the dragon: the lion has not crushed you, let not the dragon deceive you....A few women in the Church have bodily virginity: but the virginity of the heart all the faithful have. In the very matter of faith he feared that the heart's virginity would be corrupted by the devil: and those who have lost it, are uselessly virgins in their bodies. What does a woman who is corrupt in heart preserve in her body? Thus a Catholic married woman is before a virgin heretic. For the first is not indeed a virgin in her body, but the second has become married in her heart; and married not unto God as her husband, but unto the dragon. But what shall the Church do? The basilisk is the king of serpents, as the devil is the king of wicked spirits.

18. These are the words of God to the Church. Because he has set his love in me, therefore will I deliver him Psalm 90:14. Not only therefore the Head, which now sits in heaven, because He has set His house of defence very high, to which no evil shall happen, neither shall any plague come near His dwelling; but we also who are toiling on earth, and are still living in temptations, whose steps are feared for, lest they fall into snares, may hear the voice of the Lord our God consoling us, and saying to us, Because he has set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him up, because he has known my name.

19. He shall call upon me, and I will hear him: yea, I am with him in trouble Psalm 90:15. Fear not when you are in trouble, as if the Lord were not with you. Let faith be with you, and God is with you in your trouble. There are waves on the sea, and you are tossed in your bark, because Christ sleeps. Christ slept in the ship, while the men were perishing. Matthew 8:24-25 If your faith sleep in your heart, Christ is as it were sleeping in your ship: because Christ dwells in you through faith, when you begin to be tossed, awake Christ sleeping: rouse up your faith, and you shall be assured that He deserts you not. But you think you are forsaken, because He rescues you not when you yourself dost wish. He delivered the Three Children from the fire? Daniel 3:29-30 Did He, who did this, desert the Maccabees? 2 Maccabbees vii God forbid! He delivered both of these: the first bodily, that the faithless might be confounded; the last spiritually, that the faithful might imitate them. I will deliver him, and bring him to honour.

20. With length of days will I satisfy him Psalm 90:16. What is length of days? Eternal life. Brethren, imagine not that length of days is spoken of in the same sense as days are said to be long in summer, short in winter. Hath he such days to give us? That length is one that has no end, eternal life, that is promised us in long days. And truly, since this suffices, with reason he says, will I satisfy him. What is long in time, if it has an end, satisfies us not: for that reason it should not be even called long. And if we are covetous, we ought to be covetous of eternal life: long for such a life, as has no end. Lo, a line in which our covetousness may be extended. Do you wish money without limit? Long for eternal life without limit. Do you wish that your possession may have no end? Seek for eternal life. I will show him my salvation. Nor is this, my brethren, to be briefly passed over. I will show him my salvation: He means, I will show him Christ Himself. Why? Was He not seen on earth? What great thing has He to show us? But He did not appear such as we shall see Him. He appeared in that shape in which those who saw Him crucified Him: behold, those who saw Him, crucified Him: we have not seen Him, yet we have believed. They had eyes, have not we? Yea, we too have the eyes of the heart: but, as yet we see through faith, not by sight. When will it be sight? When shall we, as the Apostle says, see Him face to face? 1 Corinthians 13:12 which God promises us as the high reward of all our toils. Whatever you toil in, you toil for this purpose, that you may see Him. Some great thing it is we are to see, since all our reward is seeing; and our Lord Jesus Christ is that very great sight. He who appeared humble, will Himself appear great, and will rejoice us, as He is even now seen of His Angels....Let us love and imitate Him: let us run after his ointments, as is said in the Song of Solomon: Because of the savour of your good ointments, we will run after you. Song of Songs 1:3 For He came, and gave forth a savour that filled the world. Whence was that fragrance? From heaven. Follow then towards heaven, if you do not answer falsely when it is said, Lift up your hearts, lift up your thoughts, your love, your hope: that it may not rot upon the earth....For wherever your treasure is, there will be your heart also. Matthew 6:21


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## Belle Du Jour

This breaks down the promises about the rosary in more detail:

1. Whosoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the Rosary shall receive signal graces.
Signal Graces are those special and unique Graces to help sanctify us in our state in life. See the remaining promises for an explanation for which these will consist. St. Louis de Montfort states emphatically that the best and fastest way to union with Our Lord is via Our Lady [True Devotion to Mary, chapter four].

2. I promise my special protection and the greatest graces to all those who shall recite the Rosary.
Our Lady is our Advocate and the channel of all God's Grace to us. Our Lady is simply highlighting that She will watch especially over us who pray the Rosary. (see Lumen Gentium chapter VIII - Our Lady #62) [a great more detail is available on this topic in True Devotion to Mary, chapter four, by St. Louis de Montfort]

3. The Rosary shall be a powerful armor against hell, it will destroy vice, decrease sin and defeat heresies.
This promise, along with the next, is simply the reminder on how fervent prayer will help us all grow in holiness by avoiding sin, especially a prayer with the excellence of the Rosary. An increase in holiness necessarily requires a reduction in sin, vice, and doctrinal errors (heresies). If only the Modernists could be convinced to pray the Rosary! (see Lumen Gentium chapter V - The Call to Holiness #42) St. Louis de Montfort states "Since Mary alone crushed all heresies, as we are told by the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit (Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary)..." [True Devotion to Mary #167]

4. It will cause good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of men from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire for Eternal Things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means.
This promise, along with the previous, is the positive part, that being to live in virtue. Becoming holy is not only avoiding sin, but also growing in virtue. (see Lumen Gentium chapter V - The Call to Holiness #42)

5. The soul which recommends itself to me by the recitation of the Rosary shall not perish.
Since Our Lady is our Mother and Advocate, She always assists those who call on Her implicitly by praying the Rosary. The Church reminds us of this in the Memorareprayer, "... never was it known that anyone who fled to your protection, implored your help or sought your intercession, was left unaided ..."

6. Whosoever shall recite the Rosary devoutly, applying himself to the consideration of its Sacred Mysteries shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise him in His justice, he shall not perish by an unprovided death; if he be just he shall remain in the grace of God, and become worthy of Eternal Life.
This promise highlights the magnitude of Graces that the Rosary brings to whomever prays it. One will draw down God's Mercy rather than His Justice and will have a final chance to repent (see promise #7). One will not be conquered by misfortune means that Our Lady will obtain for the person sufficient Graces to handle said misfortune (i.e. carry the Crosses allowed by God) without falling into despair. As Sacred Scripture tells us, "For my yoke is sweet and my burden light." (Matthew 11:30)

7. Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church.
This promise highlights the benefits of obtaining the most possible Graces at the hour of death via the Sacraments of Confession, Eucharist, and Extreme Unction (Anointing of the Sick). Being properly disposed while receiving these Sacraments near death ensures one's salvation (although perhaps with a detour through Purgatory) since a final repentance is possible.

8. Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the Light of God and the plenitude of His Graces; at the moment of death they shall participate in the Merits of the Saints in Paradise.
Our Lady highlights the great quantity of Graces obtain through praying the Rosary, which assist us during life and at the moment of death. The merits of the Saints are the gift of God's rewards to those persons who responded to His Grace that they obtained during life, and so Our Lady indicates that She will provide a share of that to us at death. With this promise and #7 above, Our Lady is providing the means for the person to have a very holy death.

9. I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the Rosary.
Should one require Purgatorial cleansing after death, Our Lady will make a special effort to obtain our release from Purgatory through Her intercession as Advocate.

10. The faithful children of the Rosary shall merit a high degree of Glory in Heaven.
This promise is a logical consequence of promises #3 and #4 since anyone who truly lives a holier life on earth will obtain a higher place in Heaven. The closer one is to God while living on earth, the close that person is to Him also in Heaven. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states "Spiritual progress tends toward ever more union with Christ." (Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 2014)

11. You shall obtain all you ask of me by recitation of the Rosary.
This promise emphasizes Our Lady's role as our Advocate and Mediatrix of all Graces. Of course, all requests are subject to God's Most Perfect Will. God will always grant our request if it is beneficial for our soul, and Our Lady will only intercede for us when our request is good for our salvation. (see Lumen Gentium chapter VIII - Our Lady #62)

12. All those who propagate the Holy Rosary shall be aided by me in their necessities.
If one promotes the praying of the Rosary, Our Lady emphasizes Her Maternal care for us by obtaining many Graces (i.e. spiritual necessities) and also material necessities (neither excess nor luxury), all subject to the Will of God of course.

13. I have obtained from my Divine Son that all the advocates of the Rosary shall have for intercessors the entire Celestial Court during their life and at the hour of death.
Since Our Lady is our Advocate, She brings us additional assistance during our life and at our death from all the saints in Heaven (the Communion of Saints). See paragraphs 954 through 959 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

14. All who recite the Rosary are my Sons, and brothers of my Only Son Jesus Christ.
Since the Rosary is a most excellent prayer focused on Jesus and His Life and activities in salvation history, it brings us closer to Our Lord and Our Lady. Doctrinally, Our Lady is our Mother and Jesus is our Eldest Brother, besides being our God. (see Lumen Gentium chapter VIII - Our Lady #62)

15. Devotion to my Rosary is a great sign of predestination.
Predestination in this context means that, by the sign which is present to a person from the action of devoutly praying the Rosary, God has pre-ordained your salvation. Absolute certainty of salvation can only be truly known if God reveals it to a person because, although we are given sufficient Grace during life, our salvation depends upon our response to said Grace. (See Summa Theologica, Question 23 for a detailed theological explanation). Said another way, if God has guaranteed a person's salvation but has not revealed it to Him, God would want that person to pray the Rosary because of all the benefits and Graces obtained. Therefore the person gets a hint by devotion to the Rosary. This is not to say that praying the Rosary guarantees salvation - by no means. In looking at promises #3 and #4 above, praying the Rosary helps one to live a holy life, which is itself a great sign that a soul is on the road to salvation. (See also paragraphs 381, 488, 600, 2782 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.) In fact, St. Louis de Montfort says even more strongly that "an infallible and unmistakable sign by which we can distinguish a heretic, a man of false doctrine, an enemy of God, from one of God's true friends is that the hardened sinner and heretic show nothing but contempt and indifference to Our Lady..." [True Devotion to Mary, #30]


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## Lucia

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/new...art-celebrating-mass-facing-east-this-advent/


*Cardinal Sarah asks priests to start celebrating Mass facing east this Advent*
by *Dan Hitchens*

posted Tuesday, 5 Jul 2016




Cardinal Robert Sarah celebrates Mass in Haiti in 2010 (CNS)
The Vatican's liturgy chief said priests should view the proposed change as 'something good for the Church, something good for our people'

Cardinal Robert Sarah, the Vatican’s liturgy chief, has asked priests to begin celebrating Mass ad orientem, that is, facing east rather than towards the congregation.

The proposed reform is arguably the biggest liturgical announcement since Benedict XVI’s 2007 motu proprio _Summorum Pontificum _gave greater freedom for priests to celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass.

Speaking at the Sacra Liturgia conference in London on Tuesday, the Guinean cardinal, who is Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship, addressed priests who were present, saying: “It is very important that we return as soon as possible to a common orientation, of priests and the faithful turned together in the same direction – eastwards or at least towards the apse – to the Lord who comes”.

The cardinal continued: “I ask you to implement this practice wherever possible.”

He said that “prudence” and catechesis would be necessary, but told pastors to have “confidence that this is something good for the Church, something good for our people”.

“Your own pastoral judgement will determine how and when this is possible, but perhaps beginning this on the first Sunday of Advent this year, when we attend ‘the Lord who will come’ and ‘who will not delay’.”

These words were met with prolonged applause in the conference hall.

Cardinal Sarah had spoken on previous occasions about the merits of ad orientem worship, saying that from the Offertory onwards it was “essential that the priest and faithful look together towards the east”.

But his specifying of the first Sunday of Advent – which falls this year on November 27 – gives a new urgency to his calls for this form of worship.

Speaking after Cardinal Sarah, Bishop Dominique Rey of Fréjus-Toulon said that, although he was “only one bishop of one diocese”, he would celebrate Mass _ad orientem_ at his cathedral, and would address a letter to his diocese encouraging his priests to do the same.

In his talk, Cardinal Sarah also said that Pope Francis had asked him to begin a study of “the reform of the reform”, that is of adapting the liturgical reforms that followed the Second Vatican Council. The cardinal said the study would seek “to enrich the two forms of the Roman rite”.

Cardinal Sarah said that much liturgical study had suggested that some post-conciliar reforms “may have been put together according to the spirit of the times” and “gone beyond” of the Fathers of Vatican II, in Sacrosanctum Concilium, the constitution on the liturgy.

He said that some “very serious misinterpretations of the liturgy” had crept in, thanks to an attitude to the liturgy which placed man rather than God at the centre.

“The liturgy is not about you and I,” Cardinal Sarah told the conference. “It is not where we celebrate our own identity or achievements or exalt or promote our own culture and local religious customs. The liturgy is first and foremost about God and what He has done for us.”

The Cardinal quoted Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger: “Forgetting about God is the most imminent danger of our age.”

Cardinal Sarah emphasised a “hermeneutic of continuity”, saying that it was necessary to implement Sacrosanctum Concilium fully: “The Fathers did not intend a revolution, but an evolution.”

He made some specific observations, praising the Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham as an example of how the Church could be enriched by other traditions.

In remarks which he did not have time to deliver, but which were later published on Sacra Liturgia’s Facebook page, the cardinal also encouraged kneeling at the consecration and for the reception of Communion. “Where kneeling and genuflection have disappeared from the liturgy, they need to be restored, in particular for our reception of our Blessed Lord in Holy Communion.”


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## Lucia

Our Lady of Mount Carmel Novena July 8-16 feast day July 16 2016

http://www.carmelitefriarsocd.com/resources/Our-Lady-of-Mount-Carmel-Novena.pdf

https://www.americaneedsfatima.org/Our-Blessed-Mother/nine-day-novena-to-our-lady-of-mt-carmel.html


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## kanozas

Going to take my phone into Mass this evening.  You never know.  Some of these "catholics" wipe their hands after they offer you the sign of peace.  Why do it, then?  Just keep it to yourself.  Imaginary sludge coming from a "black" hand just as white as yours?  Must be spiritual.  Oh wait, equally catholic.  Hmm, what else could it be?  If I hear one nasty word, I'm going to film it right in the Mass.  If someone moves her purse and belongings to the other side when they were previously "OK" resting there before I sat down, I'm going to film it.  Then I'm going to write that letter to Fr. that is long overdue about the caliber of his parishioners, although, I suspect I'm not the first since admonishing respect be given to all people and other social issues are  constantly coming from the pulpit.  What's easiest is shopping for a new parish.  I don't even have to join because I know that every mass will be the same anywhere in the world.


______________________________________
UPDATE!!

Well, what do you know, of course the homily was on the Good Samaritan.  Remember, they were outcasts but Jesus requires you to love the Samaritan (outcast).  And after mass, the lady sitting next to me turned to me to wish me a good and safe week and then she added a little nervously, "It was a pleasure to sit next to you," and she held my hand.  OMG!  I thanked her and wished her the same and then got all emotional.  I turned to her again and hugged her and told her just how hard all this is.  She said, "I know, I know," and had the most Jesus-like look on her face.  What a wonderful lady!  Some others noticed this exchange and by then, I just wanted to get my teary self outside and get to the car.  Man alive, just when you're on the verge of giving up, Jesus steps in and gives you love!!!!!


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## Lucia

About Our Mother Mary 

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/browse/mary

Mary Mother of God 

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/mary-mother-of-god


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## Lucia

Into the breach a call to battle full version 


Website audio and readable download 

http://intothebreach.org/into-the-breach/


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## Lucia




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## Lucia

Source: https://www.catholicwarriors.com/pages/praying_with_authority.htm

*Praying with Authority*
Authority over evil comes from knowing, loving, and serving the Lord. A good example of our authority in Christ comes from Luke 9:1–2 when *Jesus called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases, and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal.* The power and authority that Jesus gave to the apostles can be compared to the power given to the priesthood. According to the Catechism in section 1548, every priest receives power to drive out demons, cure the sick, and preach the Good News through the laying on of hands at his ordination.

We also see in the Gospel of Luke 10:17–19 that Jesus sent forth seventy more disciples with the same mission. When this group returned from their first missionary assignment, they proclaimed with great joy, *“Lord, in your name even the demons submit to us!” He said to them, “I watched Satan fall from heaven like a flash of lightning. See, I have given you authority to tread on snakes and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing will hurt you.”*

The power to take authority over evil has already been given to the Lord’s disciples. It was first given to the twelve apostles when they were sent forth in Luke 9:1–2, and then it was given to the rest of the Lord’s followers in Luke 10:17–19 when the seventy were sent forth. This power comes from the Holy Spirit, who is imparted to each believer at Baptism and Confirmation.

Once the power of the Holy Spirit dwells within a person’s heart, all that individual needs to do is start putting that power into action. When a demonic spirit tempts you with vengeful or lustful thoughts, you can take those thoughts captive by invoking the name of Jesus. Once you learn how to take authority over your own thoughts and behaviors, the Holy Spirit will show you how to use the same power to drive evil out of your home, environment, and workplace.

When a demonic spirit of infirmity attacks your health, it will be necessary to take authority over that spirit by using a two-part prayer. In the first part of the prayer, you can ask the Lord to set you free the same way the apostles did after they brought Jesus a small boy who was sick. In Matthew 17:18, *Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him, and the boy was cured instantly.*

In the second part of the prayer, you will need to pray like Saint Paul. In Acts 16:16–18, Paul and his companions *met a slave girl who had a spirit of divination that brought her owners a great deal of money by fortune-telling. While she followed Paul and us, she would cry out, “These men are slaves of the Most High God, who proclaim to you a way of salvation.” She kept doing this for many days. But Paul, very much annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, “I order you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.” And it came out that very hour.*

Saint Paul had been praying to the Lord for several days, but the demon left the girl only when he took authority over the situation by saying, _“I order you in the name of Jesus Christ.”_ There’s a difference between asking God to make a demon go away, and commanding it to leave in the name, power, and authority of Christ.

In order to move with the same power as Saint Paul, it will be necessary to start using both forms of prayer. After you ask God for his assistance, start using the power and authority that has been given to all disciples. Speak the words out loud, “_I command_ _you demonic spirits of infirmity to get out of my body. I break all agreements with you in the name of Jesus.”_

*Command Versus Petition*
Once a prayer warrior starts moving with the power of Christ, it will be necessary to discern when it is appropriate to use the prayer of command and when it is necessary to use a prayer of petition. According to John 12:31, Satan is the *ruler of this world.* The devil and his vast army of fallen angels have the God-given right to test people’s hearts by tempting them to sin. If a prayer warrior tried to take authority over the entire world and command all evil into the lake of fire, then his command would not be effective, because evil has the right to prowl around looking for the ruin of souls.

Saint Paul had the right to cast a spirit of divination out of the slave girl because she was interfering with his ministry. Saint Paul could have commanded all demonic spirits of divination to be cast into the lake of fire, but his command would not have been effective, because Saint Paul didn’t have authority over the entire world. The devil has the right to tempt psychics in every generation, and when one of them accepts a spirit of divination, then that spirit has the right to enter and remain in that person’s life.

Saint Paul only had authority over his own life, sphere of influence, and ministry assignments. Once the slave girl crossed the line and started interfering with his ability to proclaim the Gospel message, then Paul was able to use his authority in Christ to cast the demonic spirit out of the girl. If the slave girl had kept to herself and was minding her own business, then Paul would not have had the right or the ability to cast an evil spirit out of her.

In the same way, a modern-day prayer warrior can take authority over evil only when it has violated his own sphere of influence. When evil attacks a person’s health, livelihood, and ministry endeavors, he can take authority over the attack by commanding the evil spirit to depart in Jesus’ name. When the demonic influence is outside of a prayer warrior’s sphere of influence, then he cannot take authority over it by using a command, but only by praying for God’s intervention through a petition.

*Possession Versus Oppression*
Another area of discernment for Catholic prayer warriors is the difference between performing a major exorcism and helping an individual who is being attacked or oppressed by evil. A good example of demonic possession comes from Mark 5:2–8 when Jesus entered the country of the Gerasenes. *When he had stepped out of the boat, immediately a man out of the tombs with an unclean spirit met him. He lived among the tombs; and no one could restrain him any more, even with a chain; for he had often been restrained with shackles and chains, but the chains he wrenched apart, and the shackles he broke in pieces; and no one had the strength to subdue him.*

Night and day among the tombs and on the mountains he was always howling and bruising himself with stones. When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and bowed down before him; and he shouted at the top of his voice, “What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me.” For he had said to him, “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!”

In this situation, the man who was possessed by a legion of demons had supernatural power to rip apart chains. The demons had control over the man’s behaviors and could even speak to Jesus using the man’s voice. Because a legion of demons was in full control, the man would be classified as _possessed_ and would need to undergo a major exorcism by the Catholic Church. According to the Catechism in section 1673, *The solemn exorcism, called a major exorcism, can be performed only by a priest and with the permission of the bishop.*

The other type of demonic attack is called _oppression._ A good example of demonic oppression comes from Luke 13:11–13. When Jesus was teaching in the synagogue, *there appeared a woman with a spirit that had crippled her for eighteen years. She was bent over and was quite unable to stand up straight. When Jesus saw her, he called her over and said, “Woman, you are set free from your ailment.” When he laid his hands on her, immediately she stood up straight and began praising God.*

Afterward the Pharisees started arguing with Jesus about healing on the sabbath. He responded to them in Luke 13:15–16 by saying, *“You hypocrites! Does not each of you on the sabbath untie his ox or his donkey from the manger, and lead it away to give it water? And ought not this woman, a daughter of Abraham whom Satan bound for eighteen long years, be set free from this bondage on the sabbath day?”*

In this situation, the woman was not possessed by evil, she had been under demonic oppression for the past eighteen years. If the crippled woman came to a prayer team for deliverance, the best approach in helping her would be to pray for God’s discernment to discover the source of her infirmity. Maybe somewhere in her past the crippled woman committed the sin of idolatry by channeling messages from spirit guides or by participating in some other form of divination. If this were the case, then demonic spirits would have the right to enter her body and remain there until those agreements were broken.

The proper way to minister to a woman in this situation would be to teach her about the devil’s deadly devices and to help her understand her authority in Christ. After the crippled woman had denounced the sin of divination and accepted the Lord’s forgiveness, she could command the evil spirits out of her body in the name of Jesus. Because the crippled woman made the vows and agreements with demonic spirits, it would only be appropriate that she be the one to denounce them and to ask Jesus to take up residence in her heart.

Although the good prayer warrior could intercede on this woman’s behalf, it is always best to allow other people the right and responsibility to do their own spiritual work with the Lord. Instead of trying to bind up and destroy demonic spirits in other people’s lives, it is always better to teach other people how to drive the devil out of their own sphere of influence.

More information on the proper way to use your authority in Christ can be found in the healing and deliverance books.



NOTES
The Scripture quotations contained herein are from the New Revised Standard Version Bible: Catholic Edition copyright © 1993 and 1989 by the Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the U.S.A. Used by permission. All rights reserved.

Excerpts from the English translation of the _Catechism of the Catholic Church_ for use in the United States of America, © 1994, United States Catholic Conference, Inc.—Libreria Editrice Vaticana. English translation of the _Catechism of the Catholic Church: Modifications from the Editio Typica_ copyright © 1997, United States Catholic Conference, Inc.—Libreria Editrice Vaticana. Used with permission.


----------



## Lucia

Source:  https://www.catholicwarriors.com/pages/warfare_prayers.htm

*Anima Christi*
Soul of Christ, sanctify me; Body of Christ, save me; Blood of Christ, inebriate me; Water from the side of Christ, wash me; Passion of Christ, strengthen me; O good Jesus, hear me; within your wounds, hide me; let me never be separated from you; from the evil one, protect me; at the hour of my death, call me; and bid me to come to you; that with your saints, I may praise you forever and ever. Amen.


*Breaking Curses*
In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth, by the power of his cross, his blood and his resurrection, I take authority over all curses, hexes, spells, voodoo practices, witchcraft assignments, satanic rituals, incantations and evil wishes that have been sent my way, or have passed down the generational bloodline. I break their influence over my life by the power of the risen Lord Jesus Christ, and I command these curses to go back to where they came from and be replaced with a blessing.

I ask forgiveness for and renounce all negative inner vows and agreements that I have made with the enemy, and I ask that you Lord Jesus Christ release me from any bondage they may have held in me. I claim your shed blood over all aspects of my life, relationships, ministry endeavors and finances. I thank you for your enduring love, your angelic protection, and for the fullness of your abundant blessings. 

*
Prayer against Evil*
Spirit of our God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Most Holy Trinity, descend upon me. Please purify me, mold me, fill me with yourself, and use me. Banish all the forces of evil from me; destroy them, vanquish them so that I can be healthy and do good deeds.

Banish from me all spells, witchcraft, black magic, demonic assignments, malefice, maledictions and the evil eye; diabolic infestations, oppressions, possessions; all that is evil and sinful; jealousy, treachery, envy; all physical, psychological, moral, spiritual and diabolical ailments; as well as all enticing spirits, deaf, dumb, blind, mute and sleeping spirits, new-age spirits, occult spirits, religious spirits, antichrist spirits, and any other spirits of death and darkness.

I command and bid all the powers who molest me—by the power of God Almighty, in the name of Jesus Christ our Savior—to leave me forever, and to be consigned into the everlasting lake of fire, that they may never again touch me or any other creature in the entire world. Amen. 

*
The Breastplate of Saint Patrick*
I armor myself today with the power of the Most Holy Trinity, in the oneness of God, Creator of the universe. I armor myself today with the baptism of Christ, his crucifixion and resurrection, his ascension and glorious second coming.

I armor myself today with God’s guidance to direct me, God’s might to sustain me, God’s wisdom to instruct me; God’s word to give me speech, God’s shield to protect me; God’s army to defend me, against the snares of demons, against the lure of vices, against all who plot me harm.

I invoke all these virtues today against every hostile and merciless power that may assail me, against the incantations of false prophets, against the black laws of heathenism, against the false laws of heresy, against the deceits of idolatry, against every art and spell that binds the soul to evil.

Christ guard me today against every poison, burning, drowning and fatal wounding. Christ be with me, Christ be behind me, Christ be within me, Christ be beside me, Christ to win me. Christ to comfort and restore me, Christ to be where danger threatens, Christ be in the hearts of those around me, forevermore.

*
Denouncing the Occult*
Heavenly Father, in the name of your only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, I denounce Satan and all his works, all forms of witchcraft, the use of divination, the practice of sorcery, dealing with mediums, channeling with spirit guides, the Ouija board, astrology, Reiki, hypnosis, automatic writing, horoscopes, numerology, all types of fortune telling, palm readings, levitation, and anything else associated with the occult or Satan. I renounce and forsake my involvement in all of them in the name of Jesus Christ who came in the flesh, and by the power of his cross, his blood and his resurrection, I break their hold over my life.

I confess all these sins before you and ask you to cleanse and forgive me. I forgive myself and ask you Lord Jesus to enter my heart and create in me the kind of person you have intended me to be. I ask you to send forth the gifts of your Holy Spirit to baptize me, just as you baptized your disciples on the day of Pentecost.

I thank you heavenly Father for strengthening my inner spirit with the power of your Holy Spirit, so that Christ may dwell in my heart. Through faith, rooted and grounded in love, may I be able to comprehend with all the saints, the breadth, length, height and depth of Christ’s love which surpasses all understanding. Amen.


*Standard Deliverance*
In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth, by the power of his cross, his blood and his resurrection, I bind you Satan, the spirits, powers and forces of darkness, the nether world, and the evil forces of nature. 

I take authority over all curses, hexes, demonic activity and spells directed against me, my relationships, ministry endeavors, finances, and the work of my hands; and I break them by the power and authority of the risen Lord Jesus Christ. I stand with the power of the Lord God Almighty to bind all demonic interaction, interplay and communications between spirits sent against me, and send them directly to Jesus Christ for him to deal with as he wills. 

I ask forgiveness for and renounce all negative inner vows that I have made with the enemy, and ask that Jesus Christ release me from these vows and from any bondage they may have held in me. I claim the shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, over every aspect of my life for my protection. Amen. 


*Prayer against Malefice*1

God, our Lord, King of ages, All-powerful and Almighty, you who made everything and who transform everything simply by your will; you who changed into dew the flames of the seven-times hotter furnace and protected and saved your three holy children.

You are the doctor and physician of my soul. You are the salvation of those who turn to you. I beseech you to make powerless, banish, and drive out every diabolic power and presence; every evil influence, malefice or evil eye and all evil actions aimed against me.

Where there is envy and malice, give me an abundance of goodness, endurance, victory and charity. O Lord, you who love man, I beg you to reach out your powerful hands and your most high and mighty arms and come to my aid.

Send your angel of peace over me, to protect my body and soul. May he keep at bay and vanquish every evil power, every poison or malice invoked against me by corrupt and envious people.

Then under the protection of your authority may I sing with gratitude, “The Lord is my salvation; whom should I fear?” I will not fear evil because you are with me, my God, my strength, my powerful Lord, Lord of peace, Father of all ages. Amen.


*Prayer for a Spiritual Canopy*
Dear Lord Jesus, please forgive me for all the times I have not submitted to your will in my life. Please forgive me for all my sinful actions, making agreements with the enemy, and for believing the devil’s lies. I now submit to you as my Lord, dear Jesus. Now I break every agreement that I have made with the enemy.

Lord Jesus, please send an assignment of angels to remove and bind to the abyss all demons and their devices that had access to me because I believed their lies. I now ask you to establish a hedge of protection around me, over me and under me, and seal it with your blood, Lord Jesus Christ.

I now choose to put on the full armor of God and ask that you cleanse me and seal me, body, mind, soul and spirit, with your blood, Lord Jesus Christ. Please have your angelic army bind up and remove all demons, their devices, and all their power from within this protective hedge and have them sent to the abyss.

Please have your angels destroy all demonic, occult or witchcraft assignments directed against me. Please have your angels stand guard over me and protect me from all attacks of the enemy. I thank you for establishing an impenetrable shield of protection around me, in Jesus’ name. Amen. 


*Binding Evil Spirits*
In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth, I stand with the power of the Lord God Almighty to bind Satan and all his evil spirits, demonic forces, satanic powers, principalities, along with all kings and princes of terrors, from the air, water, fire, ground, netherworld, and the evil forces of nature.

I take authority over all demonic assignments and functions of destruction sent against me, and I expose all demonic forces as weakened, defeated enemies of Jesus Christ. I stand with the power of the Lord God Almighty to bind all enemies of Christ present together, all demonic entities under their one and highest authority, and I command these spirits into the abyss to never again return.

I arise today with the power of the Lord God Almighty to call forth the heavenly host, the holy angels of God, to surround and protect, and cleanse with God’s holy light all areas vacated by the forces of evil. I ask the Holy Spirit to permeate my mind, heart, body, soul and spirit, creating a hunger and thirst for God’s holy Word, and to fill me with the life and love of my Lord, Jesus Christ. 

*
Removing Demonic Influence*
Through the power of Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth, I renounce and forsake every source of sin in my life. I ask you Lord Jesus to send forth an assignment of angels to destroy every demonic influence that may have contributed to my sinful behaviors. I ask your forgiveness for every act of criticism, impatience, resentment, pride, rebellion, stubbornness, unforgiveness, gossip, disobedience, strife, violence, divorce, accusation, anger, manipulation, jealousy, greed, laziness, revenge, coveting, possessiveness, control, retaliation, selfishness, deceitfulness, deception, dishonesty, unbelief, seduction, lust, pornography, masturbation, idolatry and witchcraft.

May your angelic warriors destroy every demonic influence that may have contributed to my physical, psychological, moral or spiritual infirmities of nerve disorder, lung disorder, brain disorder or dysfunction, AIDS, cancer, hypochondria, hyperactivity, depression, schizophrenia, fatigue, anorexia, bulimia, addictions, gluttony, perfectionism, alcoholism, sexual addictions, sexual perversions, attempted suicide, incest, pedophilia, lesbianism, homosexuality, adultery, confusion, procrastination, self-hatred, isolation, paranoia, nervousness, passivity, indecision, doubt, oppression, rejection, poor self-image, anxiety, shame and fear.

I arise today through the power of the Lord Jesus Christ and ask to be filled with the Holy Spirit’s gifts of peace, patience, love, joy, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, humility, forgiveness, goodness, fortitude, discipline, truth, relinquishment, good self-image, prosperity, charity, obedience, a sound mind, fulfillment in Christ, acceptance of self, acceptance of others, trust, freedom from addictions, freedom of having-to-control, freedom from shame, wholeness, wellness, health, wisdom, knowledge, understanding, and the light and life of the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen. 


*Prayer for Inner Healing *2

Dear Lord Jesus, please come and heal my wounded and troubled heart. I beg you to heal the torments that are causing anxiety in my life. I beg you, in a particular way, to heal the underlying source of my sinfulness. I beg you to come into my life and heal the psychological harms that struck me in my childhood and from the injuries they have caused throughout my life.

Lord Jesus, you know my burdens. I lay them on your Good Shepherd’s Heart. I beseech you—by the merits of the great open wound in your heart—to heal the small wounds that are in mine. Heal my memories, so that nothing that has happened to me will cause me to remain in pain and anguish, filled with anxiety.

Heal, O Lord, all those wounds that have been the cause of evil that is rooted in my life. I want to forgive all those who have offended me. Look to those inner sores that make me unable to forgive. You who came to forgive the afflicted of heart, please, heal my wounded and troubled heart.

Heal, O Lord Jesus, all those intimate wounds that are the root cause of my physical illness. I offer you my heart. Accept it, Lord, purify it and give me the sentiments of your Divine Heart.

Heal me, O Lord, from the pain caused by the death of my loved ones. Grant me to regain peace and joy in the knowledge that you are the Resurrection and the Life. Make me an authentic witness to your resurrection, your victory over sin and death, and your loving presence among all men. Amen. 


*Healing Your Family Lineage *3

Heavenly Father, I come before you as your child, in great need of your help. I have physical health needs, emotional needs, spiritual needs and interpersonal needs. Many of my problems have been caused by my own failures, neglect and sinfulness, for which I humbly beg your forgiveness. I also ask you to forgive the sins of my ancestors whose failures may have left their effects on me in the form of unwanted tendencies, negative behavior patterns and a predisposition toward sin. Heal me, Lord, of all these disorders.

With your help I sincerely forgive everyone, living or dead members of my family lineage, who have directly offended me or my loved ones in any way, or those whose sins have resulted in our present sufferings and disorders. In the name of your divine Son Jesus, by the power of the Holy Spirit, I ask you Father, to deliver me and my entire family lineage from the influence of evil.

Free all members of my family tree, including those in adoptive relationships, and those in extended family relationships, from every contaminating form of bondage. By your loving concern for us, heavenly Father, and by the shed blood of your precious Son Jesus, I beg you to extend your blessing to me and all my living and deceased relatives. Heal every negative effect transmitted through all past generations, and prevent such negative effects in all future generations.

I symbolically place the cross of Christ over the head of every person in my family lineage and I ask you to let the cleansing blood of Jesus purify every aspect of my family. Send protective angels to encamp around us and administer to us your divine healing power, even in areas of genetic disability. Give special power to our family members’ guardian angels to heal, protect, guide and encourage each of us in all our needs. Let your healing power be released at this very moment, and let it continue as long as your sovereignty permits.

Replace all bondage in our family lineage with a bonding of holy family love. May there be an ever-deeper bonding with you, Heavenly Father, through the power of your Holy Spirit, to your Son, Jesus Christ. Let the family of the Holy Trinity pervade our family with its tender, warm, loving presence, so that our family may recognize and manifest that love in all our relationships; in Jesus’ precious name. Amen. 


*Renouncing Lodges & Secret Societies*
Lord Jesus, I come to you as a sinner seeking forgiveness and healing from all sins committed against you by my family lineage. I honor my earthly father, mother and ancestors, but I utterly turn away from and renounce all their sins, especially those that have exposed me to any kind of harmful influence. I forgive all my ancestors for the effects of their sins and ask to be washed clean of their destructive consequences.

I renounce and rebuke Satan and every evil power that has affected my family lineage. I renounce and forsake my involvement in all lodges, secret societies and any other evil craft practiced by my ancestors. I renounce all oaths and rituals in every level and degree. I renounce witchcraft, the spirit of the antichrist and the curse of any demonic doctrine. I renounce idolatry, blasphemy and all destructive forms of secrecy and deception. I renounce the love of power, the love of money, and any fears that have held me in bondage.

I renounce all spiritually binding oaths taken in Freemasonry, Mormonism, the Order of Amaranth, Oddfellows, Buffalos, Druids and Foresters Lodges, the Ku Klux Klan, The Grange, the Woodmen of the World, Riders of the Red Robe, the Knights of Pythias, the Mystic Order of the Veiled Prophets of the Enchanted Realm, the women’s Orders of the Eastern Star and of the White Shrine of Jerusalem, the Daughters of the Eastern Star, the International Orders of Job’s Daughters, the Rainbow Girls and the boys’ Order of De Molay and any other secret society along with their destructive effects on me and my family.

I renounce the blindfold and hoodwink, and any effects they had on my emotions and eyes, including all confusion and fears. I renounce the noose around the neck, the fear of choking and any spirit that causes difficulty in breathing. I renounce the effects of all pagan objects and symbolism, aprons, books of rituals, rings and jewelry. I renounce the entrapping of others, and observing the helplessness of others during rituals. I renounce false communion, all mockery of the redemptive work of Jesus Christ on the cross, all unbelief, confusion and deception, and all worship of Lucifer as a god.

I humbly ask for your forgiveness, Lord Jesus, and for your blood to cleanse me of all the sins I have committed. Please purify my spirit, soul, mind, emotions and every other part of my body. Please destroy any evil spirits that have attached themselves to me, or my family, because of these sins and cleanse us with the fire of your Holy Spirit. I invite you into my heart, Lord Jesus, and enthrone you as my Lord and Savior for all eternity. 

*
Closing of Deliverance Prayers*
Thank you, Lord Jesus, for awakening my sleeping spirit and bringing me into your light. Thank you, Lord, for transforming me by the renewing of my mind. Thank you, Lord, for pouring out your Spirit on me, and revealing your Word to me. Thank you, Lord, for giving your angels charge over me in all my ways. Thank you for my faith in you and that from my innermost being shall flow rivers of living water. Thank you for directing my mind and heart into the love of the Father and the steadfastness of all your ways. Fill me to overflowing with your life and love, my Lord and King, Jesus Christ. 


*Prayer for Protection*

Lord Jesus, thank you for sharing with me your wonderful ministry of healing and deliverance. Thank you for the healing I have experienced today. I realize that the sickness of evil is more than my humanity can bear, so I ask that you please cleanse me of any sadness, negative thinking or despair that I may have picked up during my intercession for others.

If I have been tempted to anger, impatience or lust, cleanse me of those temptations, and replace them with your love, joy and peace. If any evil spirits have attached themselves to me or oppressed me in any way, I command you, spirits of earth, fire, water, the netherworld, or the evil forces of nature, to depart now and go straight to Jesus Christ, for him to deal with you as he wills.

Come Holy Spirit, renew me, fill me anew with your power, your life and your joy. Strengthen me where I feel weak and clothe me with your light. Fill me with your life. Lord Jesus, please send your holy angels to minister to me and protect me from all forms of sickness, harm and accidents. I thank you and praise you my Lord, God and King. 


*Psalm 91* 4

You who live in the shelter of the Most High, who abide in the shadow of the Almighty, will say to the Lord, “My refuge and my fortress; my God, in whom I trust.” For he will deliver you from the snare of the fowler and from the deadly pestilence; he will cover you with his pinions, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness is a shield and buckler.

You will not fear the terror of the night, or the arrow that flies by day, or the pestilence that stalks in darkness, or the destruction that wastes at noonday. A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you. You will only look with your eyes and see the punishments of the wicked. Because you have made the Lord your refuge, the Most High your dwelling place, no evil shall befall you, no scourge come near your tent.

For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways. On their hands they will bear you up, so that you will not dash your foot against a stone. You will tread on the lion and the adder, the young lion and the serpent you will trample under foot.

Those who love me, I will deliver; I will protect those who know my name. When they call to me, I will answer them; I will be with them in trouble, I will rescue them and honor them. With long life I will satisfy them, and show them my salvation. 


*Notes*
1. Reverend Gabriele Amorth, _An Exorcist Tells His Story_ (San Francisco, CA: Ignatius Press, 1999), p. 199. Reprinted with permission of Ignatius Press, San Francisco, CA.

2. Reverend Gabriele Amorth, _An Exorcist Tells His Story _(San Francisco, CA: Ignatius Press, 1999), pp. 201-202. Reprinted with permission of Ignatius Press, San Francisco, CA.

3. Based on _Healing the Family Tree_ by Reverend John H. Hampsch C.M.F. Reprinted with permission. www.ClaretianTapeMinistry.org

4. Psalm 91, _New Revised Standard Version Bible: Catholic Edition_ copyright 1993 and 1989 by the Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the U.S.A. Used by permission. All rights reserved.


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## Lucia

Source: http://www.catholichealingprayers.com


*Prayer for Healing*
Almighty and merciful Father, by the power of your command, drive away from me all forms of sickness and disease. Restore strength to my body and joy to my spirit, so that in my renewed health, I may bless and serve you, now and forevermore.
* *

*Healing Prayer of Surrender*
Dear Lord Jesus, it is my will to surrender to you everything that I am and everything that I’m striving to be. I open the deepest recesses of my heart and invite your Holy Spirit to dwell inside of me.

I offer you my life, heart, mind, body, soul, spirit, all my hopes, plans and dreams. I surrender to you my past, present and future problems, habits, character defects, attitudes, livelihood, resources, finances, medical coverage, occupation and all my relationships. 

I give you my health, physical appearance, disabilities, family, marriage, children and friendships. I ask you to take Lordship over every aspect of my life. I surrender to you all my hurt, pain, worry, doubt, fear and anxiety, and I ask you to wash me clean.

I release everything into your compassionate care. Please speak to me clearly, Lord. Open my ears to hear your voice. Open my heart to commune with you more deeply. I want to feel your loving embrace. Open the doors that need to be opened and close the doors that need to be closed. Please set my feet upon the straight and narrow road that leads to everlasting life. Amen.


*Psalm 51*
Have mercy on me, O God, according to your steadfast love; according to your abundant mercy blot out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me. Against you, you alone, have I sinned, and done what is evil in your sight, so that you are justified in your sentence and blameless when you pass judgment. Indeed, I was born guilty, a sinner when my mother conceived me.

You desire truth in the inward being; therefore teach me wisdom in my secret heart. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Let me hear joy and gladness; let the bones that you have crushed rejoice. Hide your face from my sins, and blot out all my iniquities.

Create in me a clean heart, O God, and put a new and right spirit within me. Do not cast me away from your presence, and do not take your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of your salvation, and sustain in me a willing spirit.


*Healing Prayer of Isaiah 53*
Precious Lord Jesus, I thank you for your enduring love. You came into the world to set me free from the power of darkness. You embraced a violent death on the cross to pay the penalty on my behalf. You suffered the scourging at the pillar, taking the sickness of humanity upon your own flesh, so that I could be healed. 

I come before you now to place all my sin upon your cross and ask for your precious blood to wash me clean. I place the penalty for my sinfulness, all my sickness, diseases and infirmities upon your cross, and for the sake of your sorrowful passion, I ask to be set free. I accept your sacrifice and receive your gift of reconciliation. I confess your Lordship over every aspect of my life, heart, mind, body, soul and spirit. 

Through the power of your cross Lord Jesus, I now resist all forms of sin, sickness and disease. I say to all forms of sickness and disease caused by my own disobedience, that you are not God’s good and perfect will for my life, and I enforce the power of the cross upon you right now. 

By the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth, I command all forms of sickness and disease to leave my presence immediately. Jesus bore my infirmities. He was wounded for my transgressions. By his stripes I have been healed. No sickness, pain, death, fear or addiction shall ever be lord over me again. The penalty has been paid in full. I have been ransomed and redeemed, sanctified and set free. Amen.

*Top 
	
*
*Prayer of Reconciliation*
Dear Lord Jesus, for the sake of your sorrowful passion, I ask you to forgive all my sins, especially those that have allowed any form of sickness or disease to enter my body and harm my health. I humbly ask you to send forth the Holy Spirit’s gift of conviction and shine the light of truth into the deepest recesses of my soul, so that I may make a complete act of contrition before you now.

Lord Jesus, please forgive me for all my sins, especially for any unknown and hidden sins. I am heartily sorry for having offended you. I ask forgiveness for all the times I have failed to make you Lord over my life. Forgive me for placing false gods before you; bowing down and serving idols; for taking your most holy name in vain and for failing to observe the Sabbath day of rest. Please forgive me for not honoring my father and mother, committing the sin of adultery or abortion, stealing, bearing false witness and coveting my neighbor’s spouse, property and possessions.

Please forgive me for not loving you with my whole heart, mind, body, soul and spirit, for not loving my neighbor as myself and for disrespecting the temple of your Holy Spirit. Please forgive me for not taking better care of my health, for eating unhealthy foods and poisoning my body with chemicals, drugs, alcohol, nicotine, caffeine and any other harmful substance or medication.

Please forgive me for committing the sins of hypocrisy, intolerance, unforgiveness, ungratefulness, disbelief, deception, disobedience, envy, pride, fantasy, fornication, idolatry, impatience, division, dissension, offending others, hard-heartedness, hate, haughtiness, anger, rebellion, gambling, greed, intimidation, jealousy, perfectionism, judgmentalness, lust, legalism, manipulation, resentment, rudeness, sexual idolatry, sexual immorality, sexual impurity, sexual perversion, selfishness, self-centeredness, self-righteousness, self-pity, slander, worry, vanity, worldliness, witchcraft, addictions, dependencies, complaining, gossiping and all other forms of unrighteousness. 

Lord Jesus, I ask you to forgive me for all my sins, trespasses and transgressions and to cover all my offenses with your most precious blood. Surround me with your light and penetrate the very depths of my being with your love. Let no area of darkness remain in me, but transform my whole being with the healing light of your infinite love.



*Healing Prayer of Command*
Precious Lord Jesus, you came into the world to heal our infirmities and endure our sufferings. You went about healing all who were sick and bringing comfort to those in pain. By a simple command you rebuked Peter’s mother-in-law’s fever. You spoke directly to the illness, condemned it for its actions and commanded it to leave her body.

In the same way, Lord, you have called all of your disciples to follow your example. You have given us power over all the works of the enemy and sent us forth to make disciples of all nations. In the healing tradition of the church, and through my obedience to your written Word, I hereby take authority over all forms of sickness and disease that have been attacking my health.

In the name of Jesus, under the power and authority of the Lord God Almighty, I command all forms of demonic illness to leave my body now and go straight to the feet of Jesus Christ. Your assignment and influences are over. I rebuke all pain in the name of Jesus, and I command it to get out of my body right now. I rebuke all spirits of infirmity, nerve disorder, lung disorder, brain disorder, heart disease, AIDS, cancer, hypochondria, fatigue, anorexia, leukemia, arthritis, tumors, abnormal growths, diabetes and all other forms of sickness to leave my body now in the name of Jesus.

Lord Jesus, I thank you for your healing power. I ask you to send forth your ministering, medical and surgical angels, to repair and restore any damage that was caused in my body by the presence of sin, sickness or demonically influenced infirmities. I ask that you send forth your Holy Spirit and fill me with your love, light, peace and joy. Come Holy Spirit and transform me into the child of God that you intended me to be.

*Top 
	
*
*Prayer for a Creative Miracle*
God of all creation, you who spoke a simple command and brought forth light from the darkness, I call upon you now to send forth your miracle-working power into every aspect of my being. In the same way that you spoke unto the dust of the ground when you created humankind in your own image, I ask you to send forth your healing power into my body. Send forth your word and command every cell, electrical and chemical impulse, tissue, joint, ligament, organ, gland, muscle, bone and every molecule in my body to come under complete and perfect health, strength, alignment, balance and harmony.

It is through you that I live and move and have my being. With every breath I take, I live under your life-giving grace. I ask you to touch me now with the same miracle-working power that you used when you fashioned me inside my mother’s womb. As surely as you have created me in your image and likeness, you can also recreate me now and restore my health.

Please fill me with your healing power. Cast out all that should not be inside of me. I ask you to mend all that is broken, root out every sickness and disease, open all blocked arteries and veins, restore my internal organs, rebuild my damaged tissues, remove all inflammation and cleanse me of all infections, viruses and destructive forms of bacteria.

Let the warmth of your healing love flood my entire being, so that my body will function the way it was created to be, whole and complete, renewed in your perfect health. I ask this through my Lord, Jesus Christ, your Son, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen.



*Prayer to the Divine Physician*
Dear Lord Jesus, you went about healing all those who were sick and tormented by unclean spirits. You cleansed the lepers, opened the eyes of the blind and by speaking a simple command, you empowered the crippled to rise up and walk. You sent forth your life-giving power to all those in need, including those you raised from the dead.

O Divine Physician, I come to you now in great need of your intervention. I surrender my life and health into your loving hands. I ask you to send forth your healing power into my heart, mind, body, soul and spirit. Remove from me every lie of the enemy and destroy all the word curses that have been spoken against my health.

If I have accepted medical beliefs that I should not have, I ask for your forgiveness and denounce those beliefs right now. I break every agreement that I have made with my sickness and disease. I denounce every symptom of my illness, and I ask to be set free by the power of your truth.

Please send forth your Holy Spirit to renew my mind and cleanse my thoughts. I refuse to bow down and serve the symptoms of my illness any longer. Please draw my attention away from myself, and help me focus on your enduring love.

O Divine Physician, you are the source and strength of my recovery. Show me how to proceed with your plan for my restoration. I surrender my healthcare into your loving hands. Please help me to discern every aspect of my treatment, medications and recovery process, so that my every thought and action conforms to your good and perfect will for my life. Amen.

*Top 
	
*
*Generational Healing Prayer*
O Father of mercies and God of all healing, I come before you as your child, in great need of your help. Many of my problems and physical health needs have been caused by my own failures, neglect and sinfulness. Others have been passed down through my family lineage in the form of genetic defects from my ancestors.

I humbly beseech thee Lord Jesus to go back into my past and forgive my parents’ and grandparents’ sins, especially for those sins that have exposed me to genetic and physical defects. I ask you to place your cross between me and my parents and grandparents and cleanse my entire family lineage all the way back to the beginning of time.

Precious Lord Jesus, please look upon my physical and emotional health needs with your great love and mercy. I ask that you send forth your medical angels to minister to every area of my genetic composition. Please heal every infirmity and abnormality in my brain chemistry and all my thought processes where disturbances are present. Heal all the damage caused by my mother’s stress, neglect or abuse when I was being formed in her womb. Please remove all defective and mutated genes and restore my genetic composition back to its original and proper condition. 

If my parents’ or grandparents’ sins have exposed me to any form of demonic illness or generationally inherited curses, by the power of the Lord, God Almighty, I take the sword of the Spirit and cut myself free. I command all evil spirits of infirmity, sickness and disease to leave my body now and to be consigned into the everlasting lake of fire. Your assignment and influences are over.

I call forth the heavenly host, the holy angels of God, to surround, protect and cleanse all areas vacated by the forces of evil with God’s holy light. I ask the Holy Spirit to permeate my heart, mind, body, soul and spirit, filling me to overflowing with the life and love of my Lord, Jesus Christ. Amen.



*Prayer for Inner Healing*
Almighty and everlasting Lord, I come before you now in great need of your mercy. You are the doctor and physician of my soul. I humbly beseech thee to send forth your healing power into every area of my inner-woundedness. I surrender to you all areas of unforgiveness, especially those hurtful past events where anger and bitterness have been allowed to fester, causing harm to my physical health.

I ask for your grace to forgive every person in my past who has ever hurt me. I forgive my father and mother and ask to be set free from all forms of mental, emotional and psychological ailments. I forgive my brothers and sisters for their sibling rivalry, selfishness and divisiveness that have caused strife within our family. I forgive my friends, coworkers and neighbors for all their harmful actions and the unkind words they have spoken against me. 

I forgive my spouse, children and all my extended family members, and I ask for your loving grace to heal all the circumstances where I failed to receive the love, affection, support and respect that I needed. I forgive all those who have violated my sexual purity, and I ask to be set free and washed clean by the power of your purifying love. I forgive myself for my past mistakes and failures, and I ask to be set free from all destructive consequences, guilt, shame and self-condemnation.

I forgive all those in positions of authority, especially those doctors, nurses, healthcare providers, insurance adjustors, paramedics, police officers, government officials, former employers and members of the clergy who have treated me unjustly. I forgive my greatest enemies and those who I have vowed that I would never forgive. I break those vows right now by the power of your name Lord Jesus.

By an act of my free will, I choose to forgive everybody, including the person who hurt me the most. I release my desire to receive an apology, my need to be justified in my actions and my need for others to acknowledge the injustice. I surrender the entire debt of all injuries into your merciful hands, Lord Jesus. I denounce all forms of anger, bitterness and resentment, and I command every evil spirit that has entered my body through the lack of forgiveness to leave now and go straight to the feet of my Lord, Jesus Christ.

Through the power of your Holy Spirit, I ask you Lord Jesus to fill me with your love, peace, patience, kindness, generosity and self-control. May your healing hand rest upon me now as I bless all those who have hurt me. I desire to be kind and compassionate to everyone, forgiving them just as you have forgiven me. I ask for the healing power of your love to flow through every cell of my body and into the lives of those whom I have forgiven. Amen.

*Top 
	
*
*Prayer of Confirmation*
Lord, God Almighty, I thank you for protecting me from every form of evil and bringing me the gift of your divine health. I thank you for breaking the chains of oppression and delivering me from every form of sin, sickness, disease and lie of the enemy. I thank you for the powerful name of Jesus to which every knee shall bow.

In the power and authority that you have given me, I say to all addictions, perversions, chemical dependencies, hopelessness, worry, doubt, fear, despair and all symptoms of any such illness that you must submit to the name of Jesus. I cast down every argument and proud obstacle that exalts itself against the knowledge of God. I bring every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.

Thank you for giving me your authority over all the power of the enemy. Nothing shall harm me. I call upon a heavenly spirit of praise and worship to fill and guard me against the enemy’s lies. Thank you for your full armor, your name, your most precious blood and your Holy Spirit. No weapon formed against me shall prosper. Thank you heavenly Father for all your provisions, for yours is the kingdom, the power and the glory, both now and forevermore. Amen.



*Prayer for Peaceful Rest*
Dear Lord Jesus, as I rest in the comfort of your love, I ask to experience your gentle embrace as you tenderly wrap your loving arms around me. I trust your compassionate care will bring peace to my mind, serenity to my heart and renewal to my spirit.

In your loving embrace, I ask that you grant me a peaceful night’s rest. Please purify my dreams, cleanse my subconscious and wash my thoughts with the purity of your infinite love. Please minister to my heart, mind, body, soul and spirit as I rest in your compassionate care tonight.

Please send forth your protective angels to stand guard over me as I sleep. May your angelic army destroy all curses, hindrances and demonic influences that have been sent against my ability to experience a peaceful night’s rest. I ask that your heavenly host protect me as I stay awake and watch over me as I sleep, that awake I may keep watch with Christ, and asleep, rest in his peace. Amen.



*Healing Scriptures*
The following scripture passages have the power to bring healing and strength to your heart, mind, body, soul and spirit. Meditate on them day and night. Allow God to speak to your situation through his written Word. Accept the Word of God as if the Lord himself were speaking directly to you. Take what is being said deep into your heart.

Allow your faith to grow to the point where you can command the mountain of sickness, hardship and despair out of your life. For according to Mark 11:23–24, Jesus says, “Truly I tell you, if you say to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ and if you do not doubt in your heart, but believe that what you say will come to pass, it will be done for you. So I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.”

Exodus 15:26
Exodus 23:25
Deuteronomy 7:15
Deuteronomy 28:1–14
Deuteronomy 30:19–20
I Kings 8:56
Psalm 91
Psalm 103:1–3
Psalm 107:19–20
Psalm 118:17
Proverbs 4:20–22
Isaiah 41:10
Isaiah 53:4–5
Jeremiah 1:12
Jeremiah 30:17
Matthew 8:1–3
Matthew 8:17
Matthew 18:18–19
Matthew 21:21–22
Mark 11:23–24
Mark 16:17–18
John 10:10
Romans 4:16–21
Romans 8:11
II Corinthians 10:4–5
Galatians 3:13–14
Ephesians 6:10–17
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:6–7
II Timothy 1:7
Hebrews 10:23
Hebrews 10:35
Hebrews 13:8
James 5:14–16
I Peter 2:24
I John 3:21–22


*Top 
	
*
*Emotional Healing Exercise2*
1. Spend some time in prayer and ask the Lord to show you if there are any unresolved emotional issues that are causing problems with your health. If the Lord brings to mind some people who have hurt you, ask the Holy Spirit to bring back the fullness of your repressed emotions, so that you can be set free.

2. After you identify a hurtful past event that needs healing, try to separate the situation from everything else that has happened to you. Instead of trying to work through years of emotional abuse at one time, try to isolate one experience and keep working on the situation until it is resolved.

3. Begin the exercise from a prayerful and meditative state of mind. Find a quiet place where you can be alone with the Lord. Make sure you have plenty of tissues and the necessary writing supplies.

4. Picture the person who hurt you in your imagination. Imagine that person can hear everything you are about to say. If the person is deceased, picture them in heaven standing next to Jesus.

5. Begin writing your letter with the words, I’m angry because you hurt me! Tell this person all the ways that he or she has hurt you by his or her careless and disrespectful actions. Keep writing the words I’m angry, over and over again. Release all your anger on paper. Don’t worry about spelling or grammar; just release everything that needs to be said.

6. After you release all your anger, move on to any fears that you may have experienced. How has this person affected your life? Describe how the consequences of his or her careless actions have carried forward into your present-day relationships.

7. After you release any fears or guilty feelings, get in touch with your sadness. Tell this person what you wanted to happen that didn’t. If you’re writing to your father say, I’m sad because I wanted a better relationship with you. I wanted you to treat me like a beloved son or daughter. I wanted your love and support.

8. Conclude your letter with anything else you need to say to this person, and then begin a new letter by picturing the person who hurt you in a completely healed state. Picture them in heaven standing next to Jesus. Imagine this person full of God’s love, and because they are full of God’s love, allow them to offer you an apology.

9. Start your apology letter by saying, I’m sorry for hurting you. You didn’t deserve to be treated like that. I’m so sorry. Please forgive me. Write down all the loving words that you need to hear.

10. Conclude your apology letter with prayer. Release the person who hurt you into the Lord’s hands. Ask Jesus to wash away any negativity that you may have picked up by accepting this person’s abuse. Surrender this person to the Lord, and if appropriate, ask Jesus to break all unhealthy soul-ties.

11. Allow Jesus to speak to you through a closure letter. Accept the Lord’s love and forgiveness. Allow the Lord’s love and forgiveness to flow into your heart and cleanse you of all curses, resentment and negativity.

12. Ask the Lord to show you if there’s anything else that you need to release. Allow yourself to fall into the Lord’s arms and be permanently set free—free to be the child of God the Lord intended you to be.


*
Notes*
_Nihil Obstat: _William C. Beckman, M.T.S., _Censor Librorum_
_Imprimatur:_ +Most Reverend Charles J. Chaput, O.F.M. Cap., Archbishop of Denver, October 16, 2009

1. Psalm 51:1–12, New Revised Standard Version Bible: copyright 1989 by the Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the U.S.A. Used by permission. All rights reserved.

2. Emotional Healing Exercise, Healing Power for the Heart (Denver, CO: Valentine Publishing House, 2006) Used with Permission. www.ValentinePublishingHouse.com


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## Lucia

https://www.catholiccompany.com/subscribe-morning-offering.tr


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## Belle Du Jour

Lucia said:


> http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/new...art-celebrating-mass-facing-east-this-advent/
> 
> 
> *Cardinal Sarah asks priests to start celebrating Mass facing east this Advent*
> by *Dan Hitchens*
> 
> posted Tuesday, 5 Jul 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cardinal Robert Sarah celebrates Mass in Haiti in 2010 (CNS)
> The Vatican's liturgy chief said priests should view the proposed change as 'something good for the Church, something good for our people'
> 
> Cardinal Robert Sarah, the Vatican’s liturgy chief, has asked priests to begin celebrating Mass ad orientem, that is, facing east rather than towards the congregation.
> 
> The proposed reform is arguably the biggest liturgical announcement since Benedict XVI’s 2007 motu proprio _Summorum Pontificum _gave greater freedom for priests to celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass.
> 
> Speaking at the Sacra Liturgia conference in London on Tuesday, the Guinean cardinal, who is Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship, addressed priests who were present, saying: “It is very important that we return as soon as possible to a common orientation, of priests and the faithful turned together in the same direction – eastwards or at least towards the apse – to the Lord who comes”.
> 
> The cardinal continued: “I ask you to implement this practice wherever possible.”
> 
> He said that “prudence” and catechesis would be necessary, but told pastors to have “confidence that this is something good for the Church, something good for our people”.
> 
> “Your own pastoral judgement will determine how and when this is possible, but perhaps beginning this on the first Sunday of Advent this year, when we attend ‘the Lord who will come’ and ‘who will not delay’.”
> 
> These words were met with prolonged applause in the conference hall.
> 
> Cardinal Sarah had spoken on previous occasions about the merits of ad orientem worship, saying that from the Offertory onwards it was “essential that the priest and faithful look together towards the east”.
> 
> But his specifying of the first Sunday of Advent – which falls this year on November 27 – gives a new urgency to his calls for this form of worship.
> 
> Speaking after Cardinal Sarah, Bishop Dominique Rey of Fréjus-Toulon said that, although he was “only one bishop of one diocese”, he would celebrate Mass _ad orientem_ at his cathedral, and would address a letter to his diocese encouraging his priests to do the same.
> 
> In his talk, Cardinal Sarah also said that Pope Francis had asked him to begin a study of “the reform of the reform”, that is of adapting the liturgical reforms that followed the Second Vatican Council. The cardinal said the study would seek “to enrich the two forms of the Roman rite”.
> 
> Cardinal Sarah said that much liturgical study had suggested that some post-conciliar reforms “may have been put together according to the spirit of the times” and “gone beyond” of the Fathers of Vatican II, in Sacrosanctum Concilium, the constitution on the liturgy.
> 
> He said that some “very serious misinterpretations of the liturgy” had crept in, thanks to an attitude to the liturgy which placed man rather than God at the centre.
> 
> “The liturgy is not about you and I,” Cardinal Sarah told the conference. “It is not where we celebrate our own identity or achievements or exalt or promote our own culture and local religious customs. The liturgy is first and foremost about God and what He has done for us.”
> 
> The Cardinal quoted Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger: “Forgetting about God is the most imminent danger of our age.”
> 
> Cardinal Sarah emphasised a “hermeneutic of continuity”, saying that it was necessary to implement Sacrosanctum Concilium fully: “The Fathers did not intend a revolution, but an evolution.”
> 
> He made some specific observations, praising the Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham as an example of how the Church could be enriched by other traditions.
> 
> In remarks which he did not have time to deliver, but which were later published on Sacra Liturgia’s Facebook page, the cardinal also encouraged kneeling at the consecration and for the reception of Communion. “Where kneeling and genuflection have disappeared from the liturgy, they need to be restored, in particular for our reception of our Blessed Lord in Holy Communion.”



Love Cardinal Sarah. He is not playing games! Just got his book God or Nothing.


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## Belle Du Jour

Our lady of Mount Carmel, pray for us!


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## kanozas

Thank you!!!  @Belle Du Jour


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## Belle Du Jour

^ That story in the video about the nun who left the convent, became feminist, became lesbian then committed suicide is horrifying.


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## kanozas

Fr. Peter Mary Rookey


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## Belle Du Jour

Www.novenaforournation.com


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## kanozas

Belle Du Jour said:


> Www.novenaforournation.com





THANK YOU!!!  We might try and go be present there during this rally.


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## kanozas

Belle Du Jour said:


> Our lady of Mount Carmel, pray for us!





I was going to post a pic of Our Lady and found this concerning the brown scapular.  I've been very interested in Elijah as of late, esp. after last week's readings in the liturgy.  Maybe St. Elijah has a word for me.  

http://www.jewfaq.org/prophet.htm


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## Belle Du Jour

kanozas said:


> I was going to post a pic of Our Lady and found this concerning the brown scapular.  I've been very interested in Elijah as of late, esp. after last week's readings in the liturgy.  Maybe St. Elijah has a word for me.
> 
> http://www.jewfaq.org/prophet.htm



Elijah was amazing, wasn't he? 
After watching that video I decided to get formally invested in the scapular. A priest did a group investment a few years ago and I've been wearing it since but I believe the priest is supposed to actually put the scapular on you like a habit.  I'm not sure the group investment was valid.


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## kanozas

Belle Du Jour said:


> Elijah was amazing, wasn't he?
> After watching that video I decided to get formally invested in the scapular. A priest did a group investment a few years ago and I've been wearing it since but I believe the priest is supposed to actually put the scapular on you like a habit.  I'm not sure the group investment was valid.




Gurl, I don't know lol.  I've been wearing one and have had them blessed but have not been enrolled  Going to get this done.   I know I did the St. Benedict medal correctly.

Re:  Elijah, well, you know at the Seder table for Passover, there is a place setting at the end for Elijah.  Nobody sits there but there is a plate and a glass of red wine.   Well, after we concluded the ceremony and the meal and opened the door for Elijah (precursor to the Messiah coming because Elijah as to come first), my attention was drawn to the place setting and in my mind's eye, a little thin man came right in and sat down.  I wasn't the only one to notice.  Well, lol, I do remember that.  All this was at the same corner of the house in which I had a blessed vision.  I say all this to say that all of this is REAL.  It's not made-up, for anyone lurking.  I was definitely drawn into the Church by Our Lady for Our L-rd.  I know some think it's poppycock.  I do not and cannot considering all the supernatural gifts.

Maybe we're not supposed to talk of private revelations and if so, I'll remove it if that is the case.  I just look back to where I began and I always just wanted the truth.  I can remember when I was 2 or 3 and G-d enveloped me with warmth and sunshine.  He's been with me.  I also remember Fr. Paisius of St. Maryam Orthodox Church in K.C. who told me at the "oneg" after mass, "I know you are looking for G-d.  You will find him one day."   It is an on-going process.  ETA:  This is just testimony and I hope someone finds it edifying and meaningful to them.


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## Belle Du Jour

kanozas said:


> Gurl, I don't know lol.  I've been wearing one and have had them blessed but have not been enrolled  Going to get this done.   I know I did the St. Benedict medal correctly.
> 
> Re:  Elijah, well, you know at the Seder table for Passover, there is a place setting at the end for Elijah.  Nobody sits there but there is a plate and a glass of red wine.   Well, after we concluded the ceremony and the meal and opened the door for Elijah (precursor to the Messiah coming because Elijah as to come first), my attention was drawn to the place setting and in my mind's eye, a little thin man came right in and sat down.  I wasn't the only one to notice.  Well, lol, I do remember that.  All this was at the same corner of the house in which I had a blessed vision.  I say all this to say that all of this is REAL.  It's not made-up, for anyone lurking.  I was definitely drawn into the Church by Our Lady for Our L-rd.  I know some think it's poppycock.  I do not and cannot considering all the supernatural gifts.
> 
> Maybe we're not supposed to talk of private revelations and if so, I'll remove it if that is the case.  I just look back to where I began and I always just wanted the truth.  I can remember when I was 2 or 3 and G-d enveloped me with warmth and sunshine.  He's been with me.  I also remember Fr. Paisius of St. Maryam Orthodox Church in K.C. who told me at the "oneg" after mass, "I know you are looking for G-d.  You will find him one day."   It is an on-going process.



That's awesome.  Nope it's real and I don't feel that I need to convince anyone.  I know that how I came to the church was also a bit supernatural but I won't share that here.  

I recommend enrollment because the full benefits are linked to those enrolled.


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## kanozas

A carrot seed nourished will develop into what is its essence - a carrot.  Destroying it early on  will prevent it from fully developing into the shape it was meant to take.  But it's still a carrot, either the seed of it or the end-product and it can never become anything other than what it already is.  We look differently at each developmental stage of our lives.  An old person doesn't look like he did at his earliest stage of his life but he is still a human,  from the beginning til the end.


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## Galadriel

Please remember in your prayers the 84 year old priest in France who was beheaded by terrorists.


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## Belle Du Jour

Galadriel said:


> Please remember in your prayers the 84 year old priest in France who was beheaded by terrorists.



I'm sorry but we need to fight these people. They will not reason. War is justified against them.


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## kanozas

I'm so disgusted by all of this.    Shameful.  They are filled with Satan to easily offer up their souls to Hell.  May the L-rd give peace to Fr. and may he pray for us all.


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## kanozas

Perpetual worldwide rosary "pray-along."

http://www.rosary-center.org/comepray.htm


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## Belle Du Jour

I just started a novena to Our Lady Undoer of Knots. Instead of praying for specific things to be done, I'm going to start praying more for virtues.  I'm not sure if that makes sense?  For example instead of praying for God to send me a relationship, I will pray for God to take away any anxiety about my vocation and give me peace. I'm sure He will answer the latter prayer although it might not be time for Him to send the relationship.  God bless You.


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## kanozas

................nevermind...............


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## Belle Du Jour

Wonder when the catholic random thoughts thread will be back?....

Anyhoo, new apparitions approved of St. Joseph: http://m.ncregister.com/blog/joseph...tions-of-st.-joseph-are-approved#.V6XB9633aK0

Interesting given how much impurity and immodesty is in the world today.


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## kanozas

Belle Du Jour said:


> Wonder when the catholic random thoughts thread will be back?....
> 
> Anyhoo, new apparitions approved of St. Joseph: http://m.ncregister.com/blog/joseph...tions-of-st.-joseph-are-approved#.V6XB9633aK0
> 
> Interesting given how much impurity and immodesty is in the world today.




"He pointed out humanity is _“increasingly obstinate in their crimes” _because of concern for worldly pleasures _“rather than the love of God and his Commandments. But God's justice is close at hand in a way never seen before and will come about suddenly upon the whole world.”_
  That should shake us, yet this most powerful saint extends a hope-filled solution. All those who honor his Chaste Heart _“will receive the grace of my protection from all evils and dangers. For those who surrender to me will not be slaughtered by misfortunes, by wars, hunger, by diseases and other calamities, they will have my Heart as a refuge for their protection. Here, in my Heart, all will be protected against the divine justice in the days that will come. All who consecrate themselves to my Heart, honoring it, they will be looked upon by my Son Jesus with eyes of mercy, Jesus will pour out his love and will take to the glory of his Kingdom all those I put in my Heart.”



_
So, very Song of Ascents in _Psalms_!!!  Thank you for this link.


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## kanozas

http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=326829

*The Three Days of Darkness
Question from Joe Solomon on 2/8/2002:*






Where in the book of Revelations does it read about the three days of darkness and the end of time?

*Answer by Colin B. Donovan, STL on 2/18/2002:*
The prophecy of three days of darkness is not in the Book of Revelation but in the revelations of the end times provided by Catholic prophets St. Caspar del Bufulo, Blessed Anna Maria Taigi, Blessed Elizabeth Canori-Mora and Blessed Mary of Jesus Crucified. These holy Catholics of the 19th century, the last two of whom Pope John Paul II beatified, speak of a Minor Tribulation of the world (minor compared to the Great Tribulation of the Antichrist at the end of the world), as a time of purification leading into an age of peace. This "era of peace" is presumably that prophesized to the children of Fatima, and which St. John Eudes, St. Louis de Monfort, and others, have spoken of variously as a Marian age, or an Eucharistic age, or a Social Reign of Jesus Christ. It is not, in Catholic prophecy, a physical reign of Jesus on the earth, such as the Protestants expect, since that is the heresy of millenarianism. Rather, it is a time in which the Church will flourish, the Gospel will be spread to the far corners of the earth, but which will eventually devolve into the time of the Antichrist, whom Christ will slay with the breath of His Coming. THAT will be the end.

As for the three days of darkness, when it is said all light will be extinguished and hell loosed upon the earth, it is said to be the culminating event of the Minor Tribulation, and follows upon what man has reaped by his own self-will: war, violence, natural calamities and disease. Is it to be taken literally or figuratively? I don't know. Regarding the Third Secret of Fatima the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith wrote that the prophecies of authentic private revelation, like those of Scripture, are symbolic. So, perhaps it refers to the times in which we live, in which hell does seem to be loosed. But symbolic prophecies can have exact historical fulfillments, as the shooting of the Pope did in connection with the Fatima secret. So, perhaps it will have some more literal fulfillment in an event of evident divine punishment. Even the Third Secret threatens that, in the angel's sword poised to strike the earth unless man repents. Finally, since prophecy is intended to change our behavior to conform to the will of God, it could be that these prophecies, from reliable and holy sources, could or have been mitigated (lessened in intensity, or even changed to a different event). Like the prophecies fortelling the coming of Christ, it is entirely possible that only after the events will Catholics be able to look back and identify their exact fulfillment.

For a thorough summary of the biblical, patristic and Catholic prophetic tradition regarding the end times, read Desmond Birch's _Trial, Tribulation and Triumph_ (Santa Barbara, CA., Queenship Publishing).


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## Belle Du Jour

My question: has this era of peace already happened? I just can't imagine things getting better and then getting worse again. It just seems like we're in a final stage...


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## kanozas

Belle Du Jour said:


> My question: has this era of peace already happened? I just can't imagine things getting better and then getting worse again. It just seems like we're in a final stage...




I think it has.  I remember reading something on this a few years ago.  Revelations is not literal, which we know.  Christ is reigning right now (in men's hearts).  As far as the triumphant Second Coming, not yet. 

https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/endtimes.htm
*Endtimes, Millennium, Rapture*

The term "endtimes" applies both to the era of Christ's first coming (Heb 1:2, 1 Cor 10:11, Heb 9:26) and to the events immediately before his return and the end of the ages (Mt 24:13, 2 Tim 2:1, 2 Peter 3:3). The definitive Catholic teaching on the endtimes is contained in the _Catechism of the Catholic Church_ under the discussion of the article of the Creed, "From thence He will come again to judge the living and the dead." [_CCC_ 668-682]

As the Creed infallibly teaches, the Second Coming is associated with the end of the world and the Last Judgment. Therefore, it is NOT associated with any earlier time - such as to establish a "Millennium." The Catholic Church specifically condemns "millenarianism," according to which Jesus will establish a throne in this world and reign here for a thousand years [_CCC_ 676]. She teaches instead that Jesus already reigns in eternity (1 Cor. 15:24-27, Rev. 4 & 5) and that in this world His reign, established as a seed, is found already in the Church [_CCC_ 668-669]. This is the 1000 years, which is the Hebrew way of indicating an indefinite long time - in this case, the time between the first and second comings, the era of the Church, in other words the last days in the broadest sense.The Book of Revelation situates this era between the persecutions of the Roman antichrists of the first century and the final unleashing of evil at the end.

Naturally, non-Catholics cannot accept that the Catholic Church represents Christ in this world, so they are forced to look for a personal earthly reign somewhere out in the future. The notion that Jesus will come, reign, and then depart, so that the devil can trick the world again, is incompatible with the incomprehensible dignity of the Lord and His love for His people. Jesus' Coming will be definitive, triumphant and ever-lasting, NOT temporal and limited.

As for the Rapture, the meaning of 1 Thes 4:15-17 is that at the return of Christ (v.15) and the General Resurrection of the Dead (v.16), those who survive the persecution of the Antichrist will have no advantage in being resurrected over those who died before His Coming [_CCC_ 1001]. All will go to meet Him and be with Him forever (v.17; cf. Rev 20:17-21:27).


The Catechism provides us with a general order of events at the End [_CCC_ 673-677]. Chronologically they are,

1. the full number of the Gentiles come into the Church

2. the "full inclusion of the Jews in the Messiah's salvation, in the wake of the full number of the Gentiles" (#2 will follow quickly on, in the wake of, #1)

3. a final trial of the Church "in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth." The supreme deception is that of the Antichrist.

4. Christ's victory over this final unleashing of evil through a cosmic upheaval of this passing world and the Last Judgment.

As Cardinal Ratzinger recently pointed out (in the context of the message of Fátima), we are not at the end of the world. In fact, the Second Coming (understood as the physical return of Christ) cannot occur until the full number of the Gentiles are converted, followed by "all Israel."

Approved Catholic mystics (Venerables, Blessed and Saints, approved apparitions) throw considerable light on this order, by prophesying a minor apostasy and tribulation toward the end of the world, after which will occur the reunion of Christians. Only later will the entire world fall away from Christ (the great apostasy) and the personal Antichrist arise and the Tribulation of the End occur.

Although this is not Catholic doctrine, arising as it does from private revelation, it conforms to what is occurring in our time, especially in light of Our Lady of Fátima's promise of an "Era of Peace." This "Triumph of the Immaculate Heart" (other saints have spoken of a social reign of Jesus Christ when Jesus will reign in the hearts of men) would seem to occur prior to the rise of the Antichrist. The optimism of the Pope for the "New Evangelization" and a "Civilization of Love" in the Third Millennium of Christianity fits here, as well. This would place us, therefore, in the period just before the events spoken of in the _Catechism_, that is, on the verge of the evangelization of the entire world. Other interpretations are possible, but none seem to fit the facts as well, especially when approved mystics are studied, instead of merely alleged ones.

Answered by Colin B. Donovan, STL


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## Lucia

Rosary apps And podcast 

Family Rosary's Mobile Rosary by Family Rosary, Inc.
https://appsto.re/us/OW8zC.i


https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/pray-rosary-bishop-barres/id871826336?mt=2


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## kanozas

wow!!!

https://cruxnow.com/rns/2016/08/16/us-lutherans-approve-agreement-catholic-church/
*US Lutherans approve agreement with Catholic Church*




Martin Luther, founder of Germany's Protestant (Lutheran) Church, nailed his 95 theses to the church door in Wittenberg. (Credit: Religion News Service file photo.)

*Nearly 500 years after Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the Castle Church door, the largest Lutheran denomination in the U.S. has approved a declaration recognizing “there are no longer church-dividing issues” on many points with the Roman Catholic Church.*


Nearly 500 years after Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the Castle Church door, the largest Lutheran denomination in the U.S. has approved a declaration recognizing “there are no longer church-dividing issues” on many points with the Roman Catholic Church.

The “Declaration on the Way” was approved 931-9 by the 2016 Evangelical Lutheran Church in America Churchwide Assembly held last week at the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center in New Orleans.

ELCA Presiding Bishop Elizabeth A. Eaton called the declaration “historic” in a statement released by the denomination following the Aug. 10 vote.

“Though we have not yet arrived, we have claimed that we are, in fact, on the way to unity,” he said.

“This ‘Declaration on the Way’ helps us to realize more fully our unity in Christ with our Catholic partners, but it also serves to embolden our commitment to unity with all Christians,” Eaton said.

The declaration comes as the Lutheran and Catholic churches prepare to kick off a year of celebrations to mark the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation.

Luther had touched off the Reformation on Oct. 31, 1517, when he nailed the 95 theses to the church door in Wittenberg, Germany. That document included 95 questions and propositions he wanted to debate within the Catholic Church.

Most notably, the “Declaration on the Way” includes 32 “Statements of Agreement” where Lutherans and Catholics no longer have church-dividing differences on issues of church, ministry and the Eucharist. Those statements previously had been affirmed by the U. S. Conference of Catholic Bishops’ Committee on Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs.

It also lists remaining differences between the two churches and next steps on addressing them.

Eaton pointed to past agreements reached by the ELCA and Catholic Church, as well, including 1999’s “Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification.”

Last November, Pope Francis sparked controversy when he seemed to suggest a Lutheran could receive Communion in the Catholic Church, saying “life is greater than explanations and interpretations.”

The pontiff is scheduled to visit Sweden on Oct. 31 to preside at a joint service with Lutherans.

And the Vatican and the Lutheran World Federation released a joint document in 2013 titled “From Conflict to Communion” that focused on the progress made in Lutheran-Catholic dialogue in the past 50 years, rather than centuries of conflict.

The ELCA is one of the 10 largest Protestant denominations in the U.S. with more than 3.7 million members across the 50 states and the Caribbean region.


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## Belle Du Jour

Pope Francis needs to stop it about Lutherans receiving communion. My understanding is they don't accept the Real Presence doctrine and they have women priests. Nope. They shouldn't receive.


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## kanozas

I wonder if Russia will  be consecrated to the Immaculate  Heart of Mary soon.


Belle Du Jour said:


> Pope Francis needs to stop it about Lutherans receiving communion. My understanding is they don't accept the Real Presence doctrine and they have women priests. Nope. They shouldn't receive.



It's my understanding that Luther was still Marian and held to Eucharistic doctrine on the Real Presence.  Wonder when they all changed belief in that???


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## Lucia

Belle Du Jour said:


> Pope Francis needs to stop it about Lutherans receiving communion. My understanding is they don't accept the Real Presence doctrine and they have women priests. Nope. They shouldn't receive.



Thanks for pointing this out, I hope that's not what he meant and they're taking it out of context. But if not then, El Papa should pray, think, discuss with Catholic Cardinals, and pray some more. 

We should not and cannot concede real presence in the Eucharist and women Preists in the name of "so called" unification when we know that's not scripturally sound.  Women Preists and deacons go against the very nature of how God established authority in the world and it takes them out from under Gods authority and protection.  Christ is the head of the church, and man, then man is the head of woman and so on.


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## Lucia

kanozas said:


> I wonder if Russia will  be consecrated to the Immaculate  Heart of Mary soon.
> It's my understanding that Luther was still Marian and held to Eucharistic doctrine on the Real Presence.  Wonder when they all changed belief in that???



I hope so.

The fact that Lutherans broke with the Catholic Church they took themselves out from under the direct authority and protection of Jesus and do not receive the full power, authority, protection of laying of hands or ordination as it should be, at best they only get partial ordination at worst nothing. 

I'm not sure but I think there's some slight difference in how they consecrate it? But if a woman Lutheran priest is the one doing the consecrating the it's invalid because Jesus didn't lay hands on or give that authority to any woman, so that authority cannot then be given to women from any man since Jesus did not first establish it that way. so women have no authority to consecrate, lead a congregation, etc....


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## Belle Du Jour

kanozas said:


> I wonder if Russia will  be consecrated to the Immaculate  Heart of Mary soon.
> 
> 
> It's my understanding that Luther was still Marian and held to Eucharistic doctrine on the Real Presence.  Wonder when they all changed belief in that???



Russian consecration already happened.  Sister Lucia said JP II's consecration of the whole world to her immaculate heart satisfied what was asked.

That's the problem with breaking away from the church: Luther may have believed it but he opened the door for others to come later and change all that.


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## Belle Du Jour

Lucia said:


> I hope so.
> 
> The fact that Lutherans broke with the Catholic Church they took themselves out from under the direct authority and protection of Jesus and do not receive the full power, authority, protection of laying of hands or ordination as it should be, at best they only get partial ordination at worst nothing.
> 
> I'm not sure but I think there's some slight difference in how they consecrate it? But if a woman Lutheran priest is the one doing the consecrating the it's invalid because Jesus didn't lay hands on or give that authority to any woman, so that authority cannot then be given to women from any man since Jesus did not first establish it that way. so women have no authority to consecrate, lead a congregation, etc....



Having seen an ordination this year, where men are called to marry the bride (the church) and literally lay down their lives for her it is VERY clear to me why a woman cannot be a priest. It's not biblical for a woman to lay down her life for her spouse.  So no to female priests and no to shared communion with Protestants who don't believe what we believe.


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## Belle Du Jour

Lucia said:


> Thanks for pointing this out, I hope that's not what he meant and they're taking it out of context. But if not then, El Papa should pray, think, discuss with Catholic Cardinals, and pray some more.
> 
> We should not and cannot concede real presence in the Eucharist and women Preists in the name of "so called" unification when we know that's not scripturally sound.  Women Preists and deacons go against the very nature of how God established authority in the world and it takes them out from under Gods authority and protection.  Christ is the head of the church, and man, then man is the head of woman and so on.



Exactly. Ephesians 5.  A women is not called to do alla dat lol.


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## Lucia

Belle Du Jour said:


> Exactly. Ephesians 5.  A women is not called to do alla dat lol.





ITA no women ordination, period. 

John 20:20-23

19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the doors were locked, where the disciples* were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.”* The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord.k* [Jesus] said to them again,l “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”* And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them,m “Receive the holy Spirit.*n Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”


~He gave the disciples all men, the Holy Sprit and power to forgive and retain sins, and gave St Peter the keys of the kingdom and powers to bend and loose on earth and in heaven.  Again he never did this with any of the women following him and in the previous verse John 19 Mary Magdalene was named but no where was she or any other women receive laying of the hands in ordination, for healing yes but not ordination.   


Matthew 18:18-19

 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.  19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on the earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. 


~Don't we have enough to do trying to be women to our fullest expression daughters, sisters, wives, mothers teachers caregivers without trying to be men on top of all that or go the feminist route of throwing away all the "feminine" things that is what God created us for and just be subpar imitation men.


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## kanozas

Those most likely are _ not_ the points of contention to where it would be allowed, though.  However, there is a reason but not from any type of anti-feminine disdain, which I sense a little bit in this thread right about now.  There should be concrete reasons given such as (for lurkers) the following:

https://www.ncronline.org/news/theology/why-not-women-priests-papal-theologian-explains
*Why not women priests? The papal theologian explains*





Vatican City
In October, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith dismissed Roy Bourgeois from the priesthood because of his participation in the invalid ordination of a woman.

Since then, a Jesuit in Wisconsin has had his priestly faculties suspended after he celebrated a liturgy with a woman purporting to be a Catholic priest, and the Redemptorist order has confirmed that one of its members is under Vatican investigation for alleged ambiguities "regarding fundamental areas of Catholic doctrine," apparently including the question of women's ordination.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that only men can receive holy orders because Jesus chose men as his apostles, and the "apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry." Blessed John Paul II wrote in 1994 that this teaching is definitive and not open to debate among Catholics.

Yet some Catholics persist in asking why, as traditional distinctions between the sexes break down in many areas of society, the Catholic clergy must remain an exclusively male vocation, and what this suggests about the church's understanding of women's worth and dignity.

Few are as well qualified to answer such questions as Dominican Fr. Wojciech Giertych.

Know any college freshmen? Share this great article with them as they transition to campus life!




As the theologian of the papal household, Giertych has the task of reviewing all speeches and texts submitted to Pope Benedict XVI to ensure they are free of doctrinal error. Although his office was not founded until the 13th century, the Dominican claims St. Paul the Apostle, who corrected St. Peter on important questions of church teaching, as his original forerunner. (A copy of Rembrandt's portrait of St. Paul in prison hangs on a wall in Giertych's apartment in the Apostolic Palace.)

"In theology, we base ourselves not on human expectations, but we base ourselves on the revealed word of God," the theologian told Catholic News Service. "We are not free to invent the priesthood according to our own customs, according to our own expectations."

Giertych rejects the idea that the all-male priesthood is a relic of obsolete social norms, as if such norms could have been binding on Jesus.

*"Christ was courageous with respect to the local social customs, he was not afraid to be countercultural," Giertych said. "He didn't follow the expectations of the powerful, of Pilate, of Herod. He had his own work, his own mission."*


*According to Giertych, theologians cannot say why Jesus chose only men as his Apostles any more than they can explain the purposes of the incarnation or the Eucharist.*


*"In the mystery of faith, we need to be on our knees toward something that we received," he said.*


*Nevertheless, he said, theology can help illuminate the "internal coherence and beauty of the mystery which has been offered to us by God."  (Read: we don't truly know)*

"The son of God became flesh, but became flesh not as sexless humanity but as a male," Giertych said; and since a priest is supposed to serve as an image of Christ, his maleness is essential to that role.

Reflecting on differences between the sexes, Giertych suggested other reasons men are especially suited to the priesthood.

Men are more likely to think of God in terms of philosophical definitions and logical syllogisms, he said, a quality valuable for fulfilling a priest's duty to transmit church teaching.

Although the social and administrative aspects of church life are hardly off-limits to women, Giertych said priests love the church in a characteristically "male way" when they show concern "about structures, about the buildings of the church, about the roof of the church which is leaking, about the bishops' conference, about the concordat between the church and the state."

Giertych acknowledged that a Catholic woman might sincerely believe she is called to the priesthood, but said such a "subjective" belief does not indicate the objective existence of a vocation.

None of which means women hold an inferior place in the church, he said.

"Every baptized person, both male and female, participates in the priesthood of Christ through the sacrament of baptism, drawing the fruits of the paschal mystery to one's own soul," he said. "And maybe in some sense we could say that, in this, women are more apt to draw from the mystery of Christ, by the quality of their prayer life, by the quality of their faith."

Women are better able than men to perceive the "proximity of God" and enter into a relationship with him, Giertych said, pointing to the privileged role played by women in the New Testament.

"Women have a special access to the heart of Jesus," he said, "in a very vivid way of approaching him, of touching him, of praying with him, of pouring ointment on his head, of kissing his feet."

"The mission of the woman in the church is to convince the male that power is not most important in the church, not even sacramental power," he said. "What is most important is the encounter with the living God through faith and charity."

"So women don't need the priesthood," he said, "because their mission is so beautiful in the church anyway."

This special relationship, the theologian said, is essentially related to Jesus' maleness.

"I remember once a contemplative nun told me, 'Oh, wouldn't it be horrible if Jesus were a woman?' And it dawned on me that, for a woman, the access to Jesus in prayer is easier than for us men, because he's male," Giertych said. "The relationship of love, of attachment, the spousal relationship to Christ is easier for the woman."


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## Lucia

Just to clarify. No there's no feminine disdain, it is what it is, but we have to point out feminist arguments that have found heir way into the church. Being a feminist and being feminine alot of times oppose each other and are not the same.  Stating that women cannot be ordained is not to belittle women's capabilities it's what was established by Jesus not man.

Example: Feminist views tell us we can use contraception and have abortions cause it is liberating. Femininity tells us to protect all life and that we were created to give life and nurture life.  Some feminist views go against our God created nature, whereas Feminity views encourage us to fulfill oir God given roles without feeling like we are missing out.

The whole question of women ordination comes from the feminist movement. Now femininity is not being downplayed or being taken as less than. The woman's feminine role is very important so much so that we shouldn't forget to acknowledge that although in certain situations we may have to take on some traditionally masculine duties and are capable to do so,  that is not our primary role, so we can't get it twisted.


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## kanozas

It's not the question itself, it's how it was presented as though "how dare anyone think it should be possible."  We simply do not know the full mystery of the faith and why everything is the way it is, as handed down by Christ.  Gender and sex differ in the sense that we learn one of them socially.  What is the feminine role then?  Are women outside that role when they work outside the home?    Women as leaders prohibited?  No.  Women can be Cardinals.  Stating an obvious fact that women cannot be priests suffices as well as that we don't truly comprehend the entire mystery of the faith.  It's coming across as though it's something nasty to scoff at  to even entertain the thought and yet, I don't think that was the intent of any of prescribed structure.  That's beside the fact that it will never happen as we know the church today. 

Incidentally, this question is as old as time and a lot older than any feminist movement of today.  Shrugs.  It's like we are disdaining the thought of it rather than offering a factual answer as to why it's evolved as it has.


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## Lucia

kanozas said:


> It's not the question itself, it's how it was presented as though "how dare anyone think it should be possible."  We simply do not know the full mystery of the faith and why everything is the way it is, as handed down by Christ.  Gender and sex differ in the sense that we learn one of them socially.  What is the feminine role then?  Are women outside that role when they work outside the home?    Women as leaders prohibited?  No.  Women can be Cardinals.  Stating an obvious fact that women cannot be priests suffices as well as that we don't truly comprehend the entire mystery of the faith.  It's coming across as though it's something nasty to scoff at  to even entertain the thought and yet, I don't think that was the intent of any of prescribed structure.  That's beside the fact that it will never happen as we know the church today.
> 
> Incidentally, this question is as old as time and a lot older than any feminist movement of today.  Shrugs.  It's like we are disdaining the thought of it rather than offering a factual answer as to why it's evolved as it has.



I see what you mean good points. 
Well if that's how I came off that wasn't my intention I was trying to show my support for no women ordination.


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## kanozas

Lucia said:


> I see what you mean good points.
> Well if that's how I came off that wasn't my intention I was trying to show my support for no women ordination.




Well, I'm sorry as I don't want to make it so personal but I think that it's likewise palpable in many of the articles addressing the issue, "Oh, fathers have this quality and that quality..."  blah, blah, blah.  Maybe it's something totally beyond our human understanding.  I dunno.  You know, pigs are unkosher despite having split hooves lol (appearances of being kosher).  They just don't chew their cud haha.  Thank G-d that Mary is Queen of Heaven.  I'm sure there are some men upset about that haha.


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## kanozas

Any advice for a saint medal for us?  MY NEIGHBOR IS DEALING DRUGS NEXT DOOR.  sighhhhhh  

Confirmation on the drugs are from the neighborhood kid who who is best friends with my kid because he cuts his yard as his summer job and they made mention of it two days ago.  He saw the plants/setup.  Someone else told me he had purple growing lights on late night and they suspected.  I have once but didn't pay it any mind.   You can see them from our driveway...right next to it.  I brushed it off. 

Yesterday, some weird smell, kinda like burning sage, was all over the place on Sunday morning.  Weather cooled down so I had the windows open.  I swear I saw a cloud of smoke waft in through our windows.  Thought someone was burning yard leaves which is illegal.  Then I got scared because there have been about 5 house fires in this area this summer and I know I need electrical work done.  It dissipated....then it happened again about 5 times.  I was wondering who on earth was having trouble lighting their fireplace or whatever.  I was checking my property because this weird smell permeated TWO LARGE rooma of my house and it lingered.  Then it hit me, that was WEED MAN!!!   It got so bad, I had to close our windows.   This man was probably smoking a huge bong next door and blowing it out his window adjacent to our game room.  I'm worried the Feds might think it's our house if he's ever raided.  So, people were right, this fooh is dealing right next door and we just happen to be the Black people on this block.   I won't say anything to the police but dang.  SMH.  *I need a saint's medal in the yard or something. * Any suggestions? In a day and age that Black people are under siege, this fool is endangering us with the potential, mistaken police raid.


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## kanozas

History of her life and martyrdom:
here

Symbols:
Crown – of royal birth
Anchor – early Christian symbol of being ‘anchored by Christ’
Palms – martyrdom
Arrows – method of martyrdom

NOVENA PRAYER TO SAINT PHILOMENA

O Faithful Virgin and glorious martyr, St. Philomena, who works so many miracles on behalf of the poor and sorrowing, have pity on me. Thou knowest the multitude and diversity of my needs. Behold me at thy feet, full of misery, but full of hope. I entreat thy charity, O great Saint! Graciously hear me and obtain from God a favorable answer to the request which I now humbly lay before thee.. (mention your intention).
I am firmly convinced that through thy merits, through the scorn, the sufferings and the death thou didst endure, united to the merits of the Passion and death of Jesus, thy Spouse, I shall obtain what I ask of thee, and in the joy of my heart I will bless God, who is admirable in His Saints. Amen.

End with:
Saint Philomena, powerful with God, pray for us!
Saint Philomena, powerful with God, hear our prayers!


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## kanozas

Found another history.  I believe that the old revealed histories of the saints who suffered martydom under the Romans are entirely edifying for our faith, esp. in these days.  Incredible story of her life.

*https://rosariorodriguez.wordpress.com/st-philomena-filomena/

“To Philomena, Nothing is refused”*

After 1500 years of obscurity in the catacombs, the precious relics of St. Philomena, Virgin and Martyr, were discovered on May 24th and revealed on May 25th 1802. So numerous and striking were the miracles obtained through her powerful intercession that, within 35 years of her discovery, this young Grecian Princess was raised to the Altar and proclaimed the Wonder Worker of the 19th century. Shrines, altars, and monuments were erected world wide in honor of St. Philomena, Powerful with God!

*“My children, St. Philomena has great power with God. Her virginity and generosity in embracing heroic martydom has rendered her so agreeable to God that He will never refuse anything that she asks for us.” *_ -St. John Vianney, the Curé of Ars_

Her story as revealed to the Foundress of the Oblates of Our Lady of Sorrows, Mother Maria Luisa di Gesù, a Dominican Tertiary.

My dear Sister, I am the daughter of a Prince who governed a small state in Greece. My mother is also of royal blood. My parents were without children. They were idolaters. They continually offered sacrifices and prayers to their false gods.

A doctor from Rome named Publius lived in the palace in the service of my father. This doctor professed Christianity. Seeing the affliction of my parents, by the impulse of the Holy Spirit, he spoke to them of Christianity, and promised to pray for them if they consented to receive Baptism. The grace which accompanied his words enlightened their understanding and triumphed over their will. They became Christians and obtained the long desired happiness that Publius had assured them as the reward of their conversion. At the moment of my birth, they gave me the name of “Lumena,” an allusion to the light of Faith of which I had been, as it were, the fruit. The day of my Baptism they called me “Filumena,” or “Daughter of Light,” because on that day I was born to the Faith. The affection which my parents bore me was so great that they had me always with them.

It was on this account that they took me to Rome on a journey that my father was obliged to make on the occasion of an unjust war with which he was threatened by the haughty Diocletian. I was then thirteen years old. On our arrival in the capital of the world, we proceeded to the palace of the Emperor and were admitted for an audience. As soon as Diocletian saw me, his eyes were fixed upon me. He appeared to be pre-possessed in this manner during the entire time that my father was stating with animated feelings everything that could serve for his defense.

As soon as Father had ceased to speak, the Emperor desired him to be disturbed no longer, to banish all fear, to think only of living in happiness. These are the Emperor’s words, “I shall place at your disposal all the force of the Empire. I ask only one thing, that is the hand of your daughter.” My father, dazzled with an honor he was far from expecting, willingly acceded on the spot to the proposal of the Emperor.

When we returned to our own dwelling, Father and Mother did all they could to induce me to yield to Diocletian’s wishes and theirs. I cried, “Do you wish, that for the love of a man, I should break the promise I have made to Jesus Christ? My virginity belongs to him. I can no longer dispose of it.” “But you were young then, too young,” answered my father, “to have formed such an engagement.” He joined the most terrible threats to the command that he gave me to accept the hand of Diocletian. The grace of my God rendered me invincible, and my father, not being able to make the Emperor relent, in order to disengage himself from the promise he had given, was obliged by Diocletian to bring me to the Imperial Chamber.

I had to withstand for some time beforehand a new attack from my father’s anger. My mother, uniting her efforts to his, endeavored to conquer my resolution. Caresses, threats, everything was employed to reduce me to compliance. At last, I saw both of my parents fall at my knees and say to me with tears in their eyes, “My child have pity on your father, your mother, your country, our country, our subjects.” “No! No,” I answered them. “My virginity, which I have vowed to God, comes before everything, before you, before my country. My kingdom is heaven.”

My words plunged them into despair and they brought me before the Emperor, who on his part did all in his power to win me. But his promises, his allurements, his threats, were equally useless. He then flew into a violent fit of anger and, influenced by the Devil, had me cast into one of the prisons of the palace, where he had me loaded with chains. Thinking that pain and shame would weaken the courage with which my Divine Spouse inspired me, he came to see me every day. After several days, the Emperor issued an order for my chains to be loosed, that I might take a small portion of bread and water. He renewed his attacks, some of which would have been fatal to purity had it not been for the grace of God.

The defeats which he always experienced were for me the preludes to new tortures. Prayer supported me. I did not cease to recommend myself to Jesus and his most pure Mother. My captivity had lasted thirty-seven days, when, in the midst of a heavenly light, I saw Mary holding the Divine Son in her arms. “My daughter,” she said to me, “three days more of prison and after forty days you shall leave this state of pain.” Such happy news made my heart beat with joy, but as the Queen of Angels had added that I should quit my prison, to sustain, in frightful torments a combat far more terrible than those preceding, I fell instantly from joy to the most cruel anguish; I thought it would kill me. “Have courage, my child,” Mary then said to me; “are you unaware of the love of predilection that I bear for you? The name, which you received in baptism, is the pledge of it for the resemblance which it has to that of my Son and to mine. You are called Lumena, as your Spouse is called Light, Star, Sun, as I myself am called Aurora, Star, the Moon in the fullness of its brightness, and Sun. Fear not, I will aid you. Now nature, whose weakness humbles you, asserts its law. In the moment of combat, grace will come to lend you its force, and your Angel, who was also mine, Gabriel, whose name expresses strength, will come to your aid. I will recommend you especially to his care, as the well beloved among my children.” These words of the Queen of virgins gave me courage again, and the vision disappeared, leaving my prison filled with a celestial perfume. I experienced a joy out of this world. Something indefinable.

What the Queen of Angels had prepared me for was soon experienced. Diocletian, despairing of bending me, decided on public chastisement to offend my virtue. He condemned me to be stripped and scourged like the Spouse I preferred to him. These are his horrifying words. “Since she is not ashamed to prefer to an Emperor like me, a malefactor condemned to an infamous death by his own people, she deserves that my justice shall treat her as he was treated.” The prison guards hesitated to unclothe me entirely but they did tie me to a column in the presence of the great men of the court. They lashed me with violence until I was bathed in blood. My whole body felt like one open wound, but I did not faint.

The tyrant had me dragged back to the dungeon, expecting me to die. I hoped to join my heavenly Spouse. Two angels, shining with light, appeared to me in the darkness. They poured a soothing balm on my wounds, bestowing on me a vigor I did not have before the torture.

When the Emperor was informed by the change that had come over me, he had me brought before him. He viewed me with a greedy desire and tried to persuade me that I owed my healing and regained vigor to Jupiter, another god, that he, the Emperor, had sent to me. He attempted to impress me with his belief that Jupiter desired me to be Empress of Rome. Joining to these seductive words promises of great honor, including the most flattering words, Diocletian tried to caress me. Fiendishly, he attempted to complete the work of Hell which he had begun. The Divine Spirit to whom I am indebted for constancy in preserving my purity seemed to fill me with light and knowledge, and to all the proofs which I gave of the solidity of our Faith, neither Diocletian or his courtiers could find an answer.

Then, the frenzied Emperor dashed at me, commanding a guard to chain an anchor around my neck and bury me deep in the waters of the Tiber. The order was executed. I was cast into the water, but God sent me two angels who unfastened the anchor. It fell into the river mud, where it remains no doubt to the present time. The angels transported me gently in full view of the multitude upon the riverbank. I came back unharmed, not even wet, after being plunged with the heavy anchor.

When a cry of joy rose from the debauchers on the shore, and so many embraced Christianity by proclaiming their belief in my God, Diocletian attributed my preservation to secret magic. Then the Emperor had me dragged through the streets of Rome and shot with a shower of arrows. My blood flowed, but I did not faint. Diocletian thought that I was dying and commanded the guards to carry me back to the dungeon. Heaven honored me with a new favor there. I fell into a sweet sleep, and I found myself, on awaking, perfectly cured.

Diocletian learned about it. “Well, then,” he cried in a fit of rage, “let her be pierced with sharp darts a second time, and let her die in that torture.” They hastened to obey him. Again, the archers bent their bows. They gathered all their strength, but the arrows refused to second their intentions. The Emperor was present. In a rage, he called me a magician, and thinking that the action of fire could destroy the enchantment, ordered the darts to be made red in a furnace and directed against my heart. He was obeyed, but these darts, after having passed through a part of the space which they were to cross to come to me, took a quite contrary direction and returned to strike those by whom they had been hurled. Six of the archers were killed by them. Several among them renounced paganism, and the people began to render public testimony to the power of God that protected me.

These murmurs and acclamations infuriated the tyrant. He determined to hasten my death by ordering my head to be cut off. My soul took flight towards my heavenly spouse, who placed me, with the crown of virginity and the palm of martyrdom, in a distinguished place among the elect. The day that was so happy for me and saw me enter into glory was Friday, the third hour after mid-day, the same hour that saw my Divine Master expire.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

@Shimmie, this thread has turned into the random thoughts thread.  Any idea how much longer it will take to go through the other thread?


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Has anyone considered joining a 3rd order as a lay person?


----------



## kanozas

Belle Du Jour said:


> Has anyone considered joining a 3rd order as a lay person?




Well, I don't feel it is my vocation, so, no.  But don't they take vows of obedience and chastity?  Can they marry?


----------



## Belle Du Jour

kanozas said:


> Well, I don't feel it is my vocation, so, no.  But don't they take vows of obedience and chastity?  Can they marry?



I think 3rd order members can marry.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Belle Du Jour said:


> @Shimmie, this thread has turned into the random thoughts thread.  Any idea how much longer it will take to go through the other thread?



Welp, @kanozas @Lucia @Galadriel as I suspected,  I guess our beautiful Catholic Random Thoughts thread isn't coming back


----------



## Lucia

Belle Du Jour said:


> Welp, @kanozas @Lucia @Galadriel as I suspected,  I guess our beautiful Catholic Random Thoughts thread isn't coming back



IDK still waiting...
Well then I guess we just share Catholic random thoughts on the Chrsitian random thoughts thread.


----------



## Lucia

kanozas said:


> Any advice for a saint medal for us?  MY NEIGHBOR IS DEALING DRUGS NEXT DOOR.  sighhhhhh
> 
> Confirmation on the drugs are from the neighborhood kid who who is best friends with my kid because he cuts his yard as his summer job and they made mention of it two days ago.  He saw the plants/setup.  Someone else told me he had purple growing lights on late night and they suspected.  I have once but didn't pay it any mind.   You can see them from our driveway...right next to it.  I brushed it off.
> 
> Yesterday, some weird smell, kinda like burning sage, was all over the place on Sunday morning.  Weather cooled down so I had the windows open.  I swear I saw a cloud of smoke waft in through our windows.  Thought someone was burning yard leaves which is illegal.  Then I got scared because there have been about 5 house fires in this area this summer and I know I need electrical work done.  It dissipated....then it happened again about 5 times.  I was wondering who on earth was having trouble lighting their fireplace or whatever.  I was checking my property because this weird smell permeated TWO LARGE rooma of my house and it lingered.  Then it hit me, that was WEED MAN!!!   It got so bad, I had to close our windows.   This man was probably smoking a huge bong next door and blowing it out his window adjacent to our game room.  I'm worried the Feds might think it's our house if he's ever raided.  So, people were right, this fooh is dealing right next door and we just happen to be the Black people on this block.   I won't say anything to the police but dang.  SMH.  *I need a saint's medal in the yard or something. * Any suggestions? *In a day and age that Black people are under siege, this fool is endangering us with the potential, mistaken police raid. *



Yes at bolded right?

Saints that come to mind first

St Micheal Archangel patron saint of officers and in general any kind of "spiritual butt kicking" needed that's my definition 

St Benedict known for casting out all evils and protection

St Padre Pio 

Virgo Potens

St Moses the Black


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## kanozas

Lucia said:


> Yes at bolded right?
> 
> Saints that come to mind first
> 
> St Micheal Archangel patron saint of officers and in general any kind of *"spiritual butt kicking"* needed that's my definition
> 
> St Benedict known for casting out all evils and protection
> 
> St Padre Pio
> 
> Virgo Potens
> 
> St Moses the Black




LOL!   I did get enrolled in St. Benedict and have a medal in the home.  That took care of some ghostly nonsense going on in here.  I wrote not too long ago about seeing a HUGE angel in the backyard this late Spring or Summer when there was lightening and in a split second when that light hit and dissipated, I saw an angel standing, shielding us from something and in the spot that I had prayed about for when we had those rotten dangerous trees.  Dunno if he was St. Michael or not.  Padre Pio winked at me once in my dream lol!  I've heard of St. Moses the Black but will go read some more and about Virgo Potens prayer.  I just wondered if there were something people bury in the yard or something or a specific prayer when you walk around your property or maybe even plant in the street for the whole neighborhood for conversion to g-dly living.   You never know.  I hope he doesn't do a repeat this weekend.  I can't stand the smell of that skunky junk.


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## Lucia

kanozas said:


> LOL!   I did get enrolled in St. Benedict and have a medal in the home.  That took care of some ghostly nonsense going on in here.  I wrote not too long ago about seeing a HUGE angel in the backyard this late Spring or Summer when there was lightening and in a split second when that light hit and dissipated, I saw an angel standing, shielding us from something and in the spot that I had prayed about for when we had those rotten dangerous trees.  Dunno if he was St. Michael or not.  Padre Pio winked at me once in my dream lol!  I've heard of St. Moses the Black but will go read some more and about Virgo Potens prayer.  *I just wondered if there were something people bury in the yard or something or a specific prayer when you walk around your property or maybe even plant in the street for the whole neighborhood for conversion to g-dly living.  * You never know.  I hope he doesn't do a repeat this weekend.  I can't stand the smell of that skunky junk.



Keep praying and when in church you can do several things:

1. have a mass said for safety and protection of your neighborhood especially the children.

2. Make an appointment with the Preist and have your house blessed FYI have him go all throughout the house too even step out into the yard a little and bless. Tell him about the "ghostly" shenanigans.
That will take care of any other shenanigans like you posted above.

If your criminally enterprising  breaking bad neighbor sees a Preist around that's a plus too maybe he'll get the hint and close shop or go elsewhere.

3. When they say in mass and ask for out loud  intentions ask aloud safety and protection of your neibourhood that will have he whole congregation in agreement like in Matt 18:20 praying for the same goal. 

To protect your entire dwelling get 3 more St Benedict (if you want to add some Miraculous Mary Medal coins and place them in the four corners of your home. Fr Riperberger talked about this in his Spiritual Protection YT video and it works. There is a St Benedict protection prayer you can say as well and intend it for your home, neighborhood.

4. Get a St Benedict wall crucifix and put that near or over your front door.

Before putting them around have them blessed with the St Benedict exorcism blessing a regular blessing will do but you said there were some shenanigans going on so I'd get the exorcism blessing it can be done on any St Benedict relics.
I even have a St Benedict car visor clip, medals in the home and crucifix at the front door.

You could get a small St Micheal Archangel icon blessed and set him in the back yard or facing the yard from the window or porch etc.

Regarding bolded:
In our town several houses have a medium outdoor icon of Miraculous Mary or Our Lady of Guadalupe or Our Lady of Mount Carmel by the front walkways or in the front flower border garden.

Just some suggestions
HTH and God bless.

Link to exorcism blessing
https://www.romancatholicman.com/st-benedict-medal-with-exorcism-blessing/


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## kanozas

Lucia said:


> Keep praying and when in church you can do several things:
> 
> 1. have a mass said for safety and protection of your neighborhood especially the children.
> 
> 2. Make an appointment with the Preist and have your house blessed FYI have him go all throughout the house too even step out into the yard a little and bless. Tell him about the "ghostly" shenanigans.
> That will take care of any other shenanigans like you posted above.
> 
> If your criminally enterprising  breaking bad neighbor sees a Preist around that's a plus too maybe he'll get the hint and close shop or go elsewhere.
> 
> 3. When they say in mass and ask for out loud  intentions ask aloud safety and protection of your neibourhood that will have he whole congregation in agreement like in Matt 18:20 praying for the same goal.
> 
> To protect your entire dwelling get 3 more St Benedict (if you want to add some Miraculous Mary Medal coins and place them in the four corners of your home. Fr Riperberger talked about this in his Spiritual Protection YT video and it works. There is a St Benedict protection prayer you can say as well and intend it for your home, neighborhood.
> 
> 4. Get a St Benedict wall crucifix and put that near or over your front door.
> 
> Before putting them around have them blessed with the St Benedict exorcism blessing a regular blessing will do but you said there were some shenanigans going on so I'd get the exorcism blessing it can be done on any St Benedict relics.
> I even have a St Benedict car visor clip, medals in the home and crucifix at the front door.
> 
> You could get a small St Micheal Archangel icon blessed and set him in the back yard or facing the yard from the window or porch etc.
> 
> Regarding bolded:
> In our town several houses have a medium outdoor icon of Miraculous Mary or Our Lady of Guadalupe or Our Lady of Mount Carmel by the front walkways or in the front flower border garden.
> 
> Just some suggestions
> HTH and God bless.
> 
> Link to exorcism blessing
> https://www.romancatholicman.com/st-benedict-medal-with-exorcism-blessing/




Our St. Benedict medal was blessed.  I mean, I know the guy had like 5 back surgeries but c'mon son.  LOL.  I have an icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe which I've had for years now.  I also have images of Our L-rd framed in two places in the house.  I'll ask about the intentions and see what they say.  We can't mention out loud our intentions during Sunday Mass.  I dunno about daily Mass...maybe then.


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## kanozas

At first, I HATED it!  Just hated it!  But now, I like confession.  I get such a sense of peace and protection in reconciliation.  Even if there aren't the biggest sins, I just feel that I'm on this upward road.  He is with me.  I'm so glad.  It's the greatest gift I've ever received (Him)!!! He never leaves me hanging.  I may feel abandoned about something for a time but eventually, I find out that He had me all along.  I especially love leaving the confessional with that relief and acknowledgement and then my eyes fixate on the ark.  It is so comforting.  I don't have all the answers but I know He will preserve me and my family.  He will watch over the apple of His eye.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

kanozas said:


> At first, I HATED it!  Just hated it!  But now, I like confession.  I get such a sense of peace and protection in reconciliation.  Even if there aren't the biggest sins, I just feel that I'm on this upward road.  He is with me.  I'm so glad.  It's the greatest gift I've ever received!!! He never leaves me hanging.  I may feel abandoned about something for a time but eventually, I find out that He had me all along.  I especially love leaving the confessional with that relief and acknowledgement and then my eyes fixate on the ark.  It is so comforting.  I don't have all the answers but I know He will preserve me and my family.  He will watch over the apple of His eye.



Confession--actually ALL the sacraments--are a blessing.  I don't understand how people function well without them...I would be a mess.  I still don't like having to go but I definitely feel better afterwards.


----------



## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> Welp, @kanozas @Lucia @Galadriel as I suspected,  I guess our beautiful Catholic Random Thoughts thread isn't coming back



Oh,


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Galadriel said:


> Oh,



 I'm not really surprised.


----------



## kanozas

Well, as long as this thread isn't closed down, I'm good.  Sometimes I have to discuss issues that affect me specifically as a Catholic.  They are sometimes not appropriate to discuss anywhere else.


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## kanozas

http://www.rosary-center.org/secret.htm

Secret of the Rosay, St. Louis de Montfort


----------



## Lucia

http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/why-a-celibate-priesthood

http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Laying-On-Of-Hands


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## kanozas

How does the Church determine who becomes beatified and what is the origin of it?  Catholic Encyclopedia 'excerpt':


_Canonization in the Catholic Church is quite another thing. The Catholic Church canonizes or beatifies only those whose lives have been marked by the exercise of heroic virtue, and only after this has been proved by common repute for sanctity and by conclusive arguments. The chief difference, however, lies in the meaning of the term canonization, the Church seeing in the saints nothing more than friends and servants of God whose holy lives have made them worthy of His special love. She does not pretend to make gods (cf. Eusebius Emisenus, Serm. de S. Rom. M.; Augustine, City of God XXII.10; Cyrill. Alexandr., Contra Jul., lib. VI; Cyprian, De Exhortat. martyr.; Conc. Nic., II, act. 3). 

The true origin of canonization and beatification must be sought in the Catholic doctrine of the worship (cultus), invocation, and intercession of the saints. As was taught by St. Augustine (Quaest. in Heptateuch., lib. II, n. 94; Reply to Faustus XX.21), Catholics, while giving to God alone adoration strictly so-called, honour the saints because of the Divine supernatural gifts which have earned them eternal life, and through which they reign with God in the heavenly fatherland as His chosen friends and faithful servants. In other words, Catholics honour God in His saints as the loving distributor of supernatural gifts. The worship of latria (latreia), or strict adoration, is given to God alone; the worship of dulia (douleia), or honour and humble reverence, is paid the saints; the worship of hyperdulia (hyperdouleia), a higher form of dulia, belongs, on account of her greater excellence, to the Blessed Virgin Mary. The Church (Augustine, Reply to Faustus XX.21; cf. City of God XXII.10) erects her altars to God alone, though in honour and memory of the saints and martyrs. There is Scriptural warrant for such worship in the passages where we are bidden to venerate angels (Exodus 23:20 sqq.; Joshua 5:13 sqq.; Daniel 8:15 sqq.; 10:4 sqq.; Luke 2:9 sqq.; Acts 12:7 sqq.; Revelation 5:11 sqq.; 7:1 sqq.; Matthew 18:10; etc.), whom holy men are not unlike, as sharers of the friendship of God. And if St. Paul beseeches the brethren (Romans 15:30; 2 Corinthians 1:11; Colossians 4:3; Ephesians 6:18-19) to help him by their prayers for him to God, we must with even greater reason maintain that we can be helped by the prayers of the saints, and ask their intercession with humility. If we may beseech those who still live on earth, why not those who live in heaven?_


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## kanozas

*https://cruxnow.com/commentary/2016/09/06/attacks-left-right-confirm-mother-teresas-authenticity/*
*https://cruxnow.com/commentary/2016/09/06/attacks-left-right-confirm-mother-teresas-authenticity/*
*Attacks from left and right confirm Mother Teresa’s authenticity*

Fr. Dwight Longenecker
September 6, 2016
CRUX CONTRIBUTOR



Sisters of Mother Teresa's Missionaries of Charity arrive in St. Peter's Square to attend a thanksgiving Mass following her canonization, at the Vatican, Monday, Sept. 5, 2016. Elevating the "saint of the gutters" to one of the Catholic Church's highest honors, Pope Francis on Sunday praised Mother Teresa for her radical dedication to society's outcasts and her courage in shaming world leaders for the "crimes of poverty they themselves created." (Credit: AP Photo/Gregorio Borgia.)

*Many on the left disliked Mother Teresa's unyielding pro-life position, while some Catholic traditionalists harbor doubts about her orthodoxy and avoidance of overt evangelization -- and those bricks from both sides are probably a sign that she got things about right.*

Share:

 
 
 
 
 
*Commentary*



Like a tennis ball, poor St. Teresa of Calcutta is getting whacked from both sides. In an article for Breitbart, Thomas Williams explains why the left hates Mother Teresa.

The Washington Post published a column, “Why Mother Teresa is Still No Saint to Many of her Critics,” while Salon called her “repugnant” and accused, “it is difficult to remember her legacy as anything other than an inefficient, sanctimonious and wholly ideological franchise.”

Meanwhile the New York Times gave Indian doctor Aroup Chatterjee a soapbox for his continued attacks on Mother Teresa.

Williams suspects that beneath the left’s attacks on Mother Teresa is their hatred of her pro-life stance. The tough little sister had the nerve to use her Nobel Peace prize speech, her speech at a Washington Prayer Breakfast and a Harvard commencement address to speak out against abortion saying famously, “The greatest destroyer of peace is abortion” and “If we accept that a mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill one another?”

Williams quotes an essay published by Planned Parenthood entitled, _Mother Teresa the Woman of My Nightmares _in which Saint Teresa is described as “this very successful old and withered person, who doesn’t look in the least like a woman, especially when she raises her clenched fists in prayer.”

Elsewhere Planned Parenthood’s propaganda merchants fumed, “[Mother Teresa] has become for us the symbol of all that is bad in motherhood and womanhood, an image with which we do not wish to be associated.”

Williams believes left wingers are also repulsed by Mother Teresa’s religiosity. With utter simplicity she stated, “I see Jesus in every human being…I say to myself, this is hungry Jesus, I must feed him. This is sick Jesus. This one has leprosy or gangrene; I must wash him and tend to him. I serve because I love Jesus.”

Surprisingly, the attacks on Mother Teresa don’t come only from the atheist secularists. While they were annoyed by her high octane Catholicism, some Catholic conservatives think she wasn’t Catholic enough. Extreme traditionalists are suspicious of Mother Teresa for several reasons.

Writing on his blog, aka Catholic, Louis Verrecchio criticizes Catholics who applaud Mother Teresa’s pro-life stance. He has the idea that to be pro-life is to substitute an ideology for Catholicism. He then goes on to blame Mother Teresa for not being a true Catholic. Instead she is a crypto-Freemason because she eschewed overt evangelization and proselytism.

“Truly” he writes, “Mother Teresa could very well be considered the Patron Saint of both Free Masonry and Pro-Lifeism.”

Meanwhile, writing at Tradition in Action website, Marion T. Horvat PhD asks, “Is Mother Teresa of Calcutta a Saint? If you have to ask, I guess the answer is ‘No.'”

Horvat goes on to question Mother Teresa’s orthodoxy from selected pull quotes, criticizes both her position not to proselytize while she also criticizes the gentle form of baptism the nuns used when the dying asked to be baptized. Tradition in Action piles on the anti-Mother Teresa verbiage with a collection of articles entitled, “Mother Teresa Prays to Buddha,” “Doubts About the Orthodoxy of Mother Teresa,” and “The Pedophile Spiritual Director of Mother Teresa.”

Should Mother Teresa be above all criticism? Of course not, but the criticism from both the right and the left is rarely balanced or objective. The odd thing is that both radical traditionalists and radical leftists are united in their dislike. Shakespeare said “misery makes strange bedfellows.” It would seem Mother Teresa does too.

Rather than undermine her reputation, the attacks on Mother Teresa are a good indicator of her authenticity. When a person is attacked from only one side of the ideological divide one suspects that they are on the other side. However, whenever a person is attacked from both liberals and conservatives they must be getting it just about right.

At the very heart of her life and ministry was Mother Teresa’s devotion to Jesus Christ and his gospel. In this life she must have heard his words, “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven.”

In her present life no doubt those words are still echoing.


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## Belle Du Jour

Satan doesn't attack his own 

If people will come for Litte Mother Teresa, then who won't they come for? A woman caring for dying sick discarded people is being dragged through the mud while the Kardashians are celebrated. Something very off there


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## kanozas

Belle Du Jour said:


> Satan doesn't attack his own
> 
> If people will come for Litte Mother Teresa, then who won't they come for? A woman caring for dying sick discarded people is being dragged through the mud while the Kardashians are celebrated. Something very off there




Been thinking about this for some time now.  It's because she unequivocally stood by the teachings of the Church on abortion and the sanctity of  life.  The abortionists and all who support them were very angry with her.  Don't we all struggle every day to survive?  We protect our lives...so do humans in their most vulnerable state.  SMH.


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## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> Satan doesn't attack his own
> 
> If people will come for Litte Mother Teresa, then who won't they come for? A woman caring for dying sick discarded people is being dragged through the mud while the Kardashians are celebrated. Something very off there



THIS.


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## Belle Du Jour

Really getting deeper in my Marian devotion.  This is an excellent video:


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## kanozas

https://www.ncronline.org/news/just...want-stronger-church-response-police-killings

*Black Catholic leaders want stronger church response to police killings*







At the Archbishop Lyke Conference in San Antonio, attendees hold signs referencing recent police shootings of young black men and urging Catholic bishops to respond. (Kevin Winstead)
Peter Feuerherd   |  Jul. 11, 2016

PrintPDF
In the world of African-American Catholic life, San Antonio was the place to be July 5-9. The annual Archbishop Lyke Conference, named for the late former Atlanta archbishop James P. Lyke, was to explore and celebrate liturgy and worship in the black American tradition. The expectation was that there would be joyous song, praise, and dance at the meeting, held at the Oblate School of Theology.

And then reality hit. As word spread about the killing by police of Alton Sterling on July 5 and Philando Castile on July 6, young black men in Louisiana and Minnesota, respectively, joyous praise no longer was appropriate.

"We can't just be happy," said one young participant.

The youth at the conference led the way in redirecting the meeting agenda, according to Jesuit Fr. Joseph A. Brown, professor of Africana studies* at Southern Illinois University, the conference keynoter.

"We shifted to real-world issues," Brown told _NCR_, noting that the conference atmosphere abruptly changed. At its conclusion, a photo of participants included young people holding signs proclaiming "Black Catholics Support Black Lives Matter" and "Where Are Our Bishops?"



We are excited to launch *Making Peace*, a new reporting series that will explore peace and nonviolence. Learn more

A sprinkling rite included the names of young black men killed by police. Brown told _NCR_ that in response to the anger and pain felt by many African-American Catholics, bishops across the nation should hold rites of reconciliation in their cathedrals to address the sin of racism.

Other black Catholic leaders last week called on the church to be unambiguous in its condemnation of violence, particularly regarding police officers who kill young black men. They argued for increased and better police training, and overcoming what they said was a reluctance among some bishops to speak out because many Catholics work as police officers.

"It's shocking and deplorable that this is happening so frequently in different parts of the country," said Fr. Kenneth Taylor, pastor of Holy Angels Catholic Church in Indianapolis and president of the National Black Catholic Clergy Caucus. He said the shootings of young black men by police is something "I have not seen on the radar" of the national conference of bishops.

"There is an element of the church that doesn't want to look like they are going against law enforcement," he said.

He said that community policing strategies have improved police/civilian relations in Indianapolis. It's common, said Taylor, for police to meet with students at his parish school, which is predominantly African-American.

But the recent shootings, he said, are bound to increase tensions. "It's going to put more on edge. It has a potential for really escalating out of control."

Milwaukee-based Franciscan Sr. Callista Robinson, president of the National Black Sisters' Conference, said there is a need "to excise the sin of racism" in the country. She suggested that better police training could be a start in curbing police shootings.

Her organization was founded in 1968, a particularly turbulent year for race relations, including the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. and riots across the country. The group was formed to address issues of racism in the church and to spur action on justice concerns.

"We are facing the same issues we faced in 1968," said Robinson.

She said the shootings of five police officers in Dallas on July 7 by an Army veteran with a vendetta against police, "will not help the situation. ... The violence has to stop. We have to look at ways to make that happen."

Fr. Michael Pfleger is a white priest and pastor of St. Sabina Church in Chicago, a largely African-American congregation. Pfleger has a long history of social activism, and is known for a prophetic speaking style, akin to that of African-American preachers.

He noted that this month is the 50th anniversary of King's march in Chicago, an effort to address racism and segregation in a large northern city. That effort was met with large-scale resistance at the time.

"We can take all he said then and just change the date," said Pfleger. "It is the same reality."

He said outrage should exist about the shootings by police of black youths across the church, not just in African-American parishes.

"The wealthy and the removed are co-conspirators," he said. "It is not a time for anyone to be silent. The church will become what she is called to be or become irrelevant," he said.

In a column shared on the website of CBS-affiliate station WWL-TV, Redemptorist Fr. Maurice Nutt, director of the Institute for Black Catholic Studies at Xavier University in New Orleans, addressed the killing of Sterling in nearby Baton Rouge, La.

He noted that African-American men comprise about a quarter of Baton Rouge's population, but are 100 percent of those recently killed by police officers.

"This is an American dilemma that transcends Baton Rouge. That city just happened to have the latest videotaped killing of a black man," he wrote.

He addressed criticism of the Black Lives Matter movement for its focus on young black men being killed by police.

"Why does this mantra infuriate some in the dominant culture? Is it not a prerogative of any ethnic group to affirm their right to exist and not be killed? When people rebuff the purpose of the Black Lives Matter movement by insisting, 'All lives matter,' they not only miss the point that all lives are not at risk but also further diminish the realities of racism and oppression in our country," he wrote.

He wrote that Black Lives Matter is needed because young black men are nine times more likely to be killed by police than other Americans.

"Peace is not a polite conversation between the oppressor and the oppressed. Peace is dismantling the hierarchies of oppression," he wrote. "Peace is redistribution of the economic and social power. Peace does not come from seeking the lowest common denominator, but in seeking radical and universal principles that will be fair to all."

Fr. Bryan Massingale, a priest of the Milwaukee archdiocese who will begin teaching theology at Fordham University in New York this fall, commented that too many recent church statements focus on racial relationships, not racial justice. He said there is a "disembodied spirituality" apparent among many priests, who are ill-prepared to confront justice issues in their pastoral work.

He said bishops should pay attention to four factors in dealing with July's crisis:


"The sanctity of all lives," and the belief that "life is sacred."
"We can support police while also calling for reforms in policing."
While all lives are sacred, "the reality is that the playing field is not and has not been level. African-Americans have a very different encounter with the criminal justice system."
And, he said, bishops need to listen to the concerns of African-American Catholics and others in the black community.
At St. Benedict Catholic Church in Oakland, Calif., a largely African-American church, pastor Fr. Jayson Landeza asked parishioners to share their thoughts on the situation at Masses the weekend of July 9-10. What he found echoed much of what was said at San Antonio's Archbishop Lyke Conference.

"Incredible pain (and) fear that our society has taken a step back regarding race relations and how African-Americans are perceived," Landeza shared on his Facebook page. "Terrified for their sons and grandsons, particularly regarding interactions with law enforcement. Angry about the killings of Alton Sterling and Philando Castile. Heartbroken about the killing of the five Dallas officers. Much tears shed."

_*This story has been updated to correct Jesuit Fr. Joseph A. Brown's title._

[Peter Feuerherd is a professor of communications and journalism at St. John's University in New York and contributor to _NCR's_ Field Hospital blog.]


----------



## kanozas

_Before anyone can claim that Pope Francis has been silent on the issue:_

http://www.ibtimes.com/pope-francis...icans-pope-us-visit-puts-focus-social-2114749

*Pope Francis And Black Lives Matter: For African-Americans, Pope US Visit Puts Focus On Social Justice And Racial Disparity*
By Aaron Morrison @aaronlmorrison On 09/25/15 AT 7:35 PM

NEW YORK -- Harlem's barbershops, beauty salons, sneaker stores and even the liquor market advertising premium spirits are all familiar to Valerie Massard, an African-American woman who has lived for 47 years in the historic black neighborhood. But Roman Catholicism isn’t.

“This is history for me and my daughter,” she said Friday as she joined hundreds of black and brown faces along an upper Manhattan street reserved for Pope Francis’ motorcade Friday. Massard, a Baptist, had gathered with others to see the pope visit a Catholic elementary school during his whirlwind tour of New York City. “To me, he’s a Christian and he was chosen by God to be a messenger for Christ,” she said, adding that the pontiff was appealing to many black Americans because "he's opening up and showing that things need to change to help all of the people, not just some of them."

Pope Francis' visit to Our Lady Queen of Angels School in Harlem, just a few blocks east of Malcolm X Boulevard, named after the Black Muslim icon and human rights activist who was assassinated in 1965, during the African-American civil rights movement, represented another step in the growing relationship between the Catholic Church and the African-American community in the U.S.







Pope Francis greets people inside Our Lady Queen of Angels School on Sept. 25, 2015, in the East Harlem neighborhood of New York City. Photo: Stephanie Keith-Pool/Getty Images





Pope Francis speaks to a child inside Our Lady Queen of Angels School in East Harlem, New York City, on Sept. 25, 2015. Photo: Reuters/Stephanie Keith
.
While blacks make up a sliver of the nation's Catholic population, some of the faith’s African-American leaders and adherents said the pope’s message on injustice and inequality was an implicit admonishment that blacks had not yet achieved true social and economic parity with their white counterparts. The pope’s repeated mentions of civil rights icon Martin Luther King Jr. this week during his first trip to the United States was an affirmation of what social justice activists have said for most of the year leading up to his visit -- that black lives matter and deserve equal access to the American dream, said some black Catholics.

“I think the pope has already communicated that the voices of the locked out and the left out should be listened to,” said Marc Morial, a lifelong Catholic who is president and CEO of the National Urban League, a black civil rights organization based in New York City. “That’s what the Black Lives Matter movement has been about,” he said, referring to the national social justice movement that first emerged in 2013 as a Twitter hashtag campaign protesting police brutality.

Morial, who was among civil rights leaders invited to the state arrival ceremony for Francis at the White House on Wednesday, said it was most important that the Catholic Church’s U.S. bishops and priests take to heart Francis’ message of social justice advocacy as a charge for all Catholics.

“I don’t expect that [the pope] will go through a checklist of every nuance and political issue,” Morial said by phone Thursday from Washington, D.C. “But are [church leaders] listening and hearing the pope on social justice, and what does that mean going forward?”

*A Message Of Civil Rights*

The pope is in the middle of a six-day, historic visit to the northeastern United States, where his plans included stops in Washington, New York City and Philadelphia -- major cities with sizable black and Latino populations. Income inequality, the environment, religious freedom and acceptance of immigrants have been themes in his remarks to national and global leaders in Washington, D.C., the United Nations and New York City. Finding solutions to racial disparity is a responsibility of clergy and lawmakers alike, the pope said.

“If politics must truly be at the service of the human person, it follows that it cannot be a slave to the economy and finance,” Francis said Thursday to members of the U.S. Congress. Politics should be “an expression of our compelling need to live as one, in order to build as one the greatest common good,” the pope continued. He added: “I do not underestimate the difficulty that this involves, but I encourage you in this effort.”






  Pope Francis is applauded as he arrives to give his speech to the U.S. Congress, in Washington, D.C., on Sept. 24 2015. Photo: Reuters/Tony Gentile

During two separate speeches in Washington, the pope evoked the legacy of King, the Protestant civil rights leader whose campaign for full civil and political rights for African-Americans helped the country dream of a better future. “That dream continues to inspire us all,” Francis told Congress.

But one day earlier, he acknowledged that the nation had not reached the symbolic mountaintop that King once preached about. “To use a telling phrase of the Rev. Martin Luther King, we can say that we have defaulted on a promissory note, and now is the time to honor it,” the pope said Wednesday at the White House.

Black leaders across the nation said they found the pontiff's theme of civil rights inspiring. Bishop Shelton Fabre of the Houma-Thibodaux diocese, just outside New Orleans, attended Francis’ address to a joint session of Congress on Capitol Hill on Thursday. The pope’s message on social justice could not have been any clearer, he said Friday by phone from Schriever, Louisiana.

“The pope would remind us that when we put our hearts and minds together as sisters and brothers in the Lord, we have done well by minority communities,” said Fabre, who is also chairman of the subcommittee on African-American affairs for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. “Together, we can do wonderful things for God,” he added, quoting the words of the Catholic missionary, Mother Teresa.

*Staggering Black-White Disparities*

There were more than 69 million Catholics in the U.S. in 2013, according to the National Catholic Education Association. But only 3 percent of U.S. Catholics are black, according to a recent Pew Research Center analysis of religious affiliation data.

Although Catholicism is among the most racially diverse faith groups in America, it has that distinction thanks to a sizable Hispanic minority. The two largest historically black Protestant Christian denominations, the National Baptist Convention and the African Methodist Episcopal Church, have almost exclusively black members, the Pew Research Center’s analysis found.

Those faith traditions lent the voices of King, who was a Baptist minister, and activist Rosa Parks, who was a member of the AME church, to the African-American civil rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s. But black Catholics were not absent from the movement, said the Rev. Maurice Nutt, director of the Institute for Black Catholic Studies at Xavier University of Louisiana in New Orleans.

Black Catholics participated in the King-led march for voting rights from Selma to Montgomery in Alabama in 1965 and the anti-poverty March on Washington in 1963, Nutt said Thursday by phone from New York City. “We serve a God who is a God of justice and who hears the cries of the poor,” he said.

The African-American unemployment rate was 9.5 percent in August, more than double the 4.4 rate for whites. For black Americans, who make up about 13 percent of the country’s 318 million residents, income and wealth have been stagnant as the U.S. economy recovered from the recession of 2007-09, the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression. White families on average had seven times the wealth of African-American families, according to a recent study by the Urban Institute, an economic policy think tank based in Washington, D.C. In addition to an income and wealth gap, social justice activists have decried healthcare and criminal justice disparities between black and white Americans.

The recent civil unrest and protests over police-involved deaths in the majority-black cities of Ferguson, Missouri, and Baltimore have prompted a Black Lives Matter symposium at Xavier University, scheduled for early November. The Catholic Church missed many opportunities to evangelize the African-American community and has not always gone out of its way to learn black history and culture, Nutt said.

“If we value life and see it as holy and sacred, then we must seek to save all lives and protect the most vulnerable and innocent in our communities,” said Nutt, a Redemptorist priest for more than 25 years. “This would include black-on-black murders in our urban communities, as well as the unwarranted murders of unarmed black people [by police].”

'*He's Showing Others How To Be Christ-like'*

A crowd in Harlem let out a collective groan Friday when two large city sanitation trucks pulled in front of them, blocking their view of the street the pontiff was on. Some were not able to see Francis on his first pass at the Our Lady Queen of Angels School, but 26-year-old Michelle Darden did.

Related Stories
“I never got to see [Popes] John Paul or Benedict,” said the lifelong black Catholic who traveled from New Jersey and waited two hours along police barricades. “I can relate to him [Francis] because he’s putting himself out there” as a man of the people who seems aware of the issues important to black Americans, she added.

Darden and her friend, Danielle Burger, a 27-year-old black Catholic and fellow New Jerseyan, said they'd follow the pope to his next and final stop in Philadelphia, where he was expected to visit a prison and hold Mass on Saturday for thousands at the World Meeting of Families. “I love his message about volunteering,” Burger said, referring to Francis’ visit with poor and homeless residents of Washington, D.C. “He’s showing others how to be Christ-like.”

Darden and Burger left the area before Francis’ motorcade rounded the corner away from the school. This time, nearly everyone got a glimpse of the pope smiling and waving from his Fiat. In the diverse crowd of black, white and Latino New Yorkers, there were very few dry eyes.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Black Catholic History: http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/n...nt-history-of-americas-black-catholics-42860/


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## kanozas

*Source*

*Archbishop Blasts “Catholics” for Choice Ad Saying Women Abort Their Babies “in Good Faith”*
National   Micaiah Bilger   Sep 14, 2016   |   12:52PM   Washington, DC






Catholic leaders in Texas and Minnesota blasted a new advertisement this week that urges Catholics to support abortion as a “Catholic social justice value.”

The group “Catholics for Choice” is running the full-page newspaper ad in dozens of states, encouraging Catholics to support abortion and taxpayer funding for it. The ad has sparked outrage in the Catholic community because it contradicts church teachings on the sanctity of life.

The full-page ad that ran in the Chicago Tribune had the bold heading “Abortion In Good Faith” and the photo of a woman described as a Catholic grandmother and former state legislator. A quote attributed to her read: “I know firsthand that today’s elected officials need to hear your voice so they do the right thing, ensuring that women who are not well off are not financially burdened by the choices they make.” Below was a red banner with the message, “Public funding for abortion is a Catholic social justice value.” The name “Catholics for Choice” appeared at the bottom.

On Monday, the Archdiocese of San Antonio, Texas under Archbishop Gustavo Garcia-Siller responded to the pro-abortion ad after it appeared in the San Antonio Express-News. The archdiocese described the ad as inaccurate and a misrepresentation of Catholic Church teachings.

“For more than 2,000 years, the Church has steadfastly proclaimed that respect for all human life at every stage is foundational to the Catholic faith,” the archdiocese wrote on its website. “Abortion from the earliest tradition of the Church has been considered immoral.

“Direct abortion, or the intentional killing of a human being living in the womb, is always seriously immoral because as persons the right-to-life is the most basic and fundamental right we possess,” it continued.



The Minnesota Catholic Conference similarly described the ad as a “woeful” misrepresentation of Catholic teaching on abortion, CNS reports.

The “Catholics for Choice” campaign “disregards the need to defend vulnerable human life in all its stages — a principle at the core of authentic social justice,” the Minnesota bishops’ conference said in a statement Monday.

The pro-abortion group said it published the ads on Monday in more than 20 local and national publications, including Politico, the Nation, the Chicago Sun-Times, the Philadelphia Inquirer, the Dallas Morning News and La Opinion. People have reported seeing the ads in Texas, Florida, Illinois and Minnesota, according to Mercatornet.

The ad hints at one of abortion activists’ top goals: to repeal the Hyde Amendment and force taxpayers to directly pay for abortions. Pro-abortion Democrat Hillary Clinton promised to help the abortion industry achieve the goal, and her running mate Tim Kaine, a self-professed Catholic who has a pro-abortion voting record, is refusing to say how he would vote on the issue.

On a website set up to promote the pro-abortion campaign, “Catholics for Choice” states: “The harsh restrictions on public funding for abortion mean that lower-income women don’t have access to abortion when they need it. Women who are dependent on Medicaid, employees of the federal and state governments, military members, and millions of others who are dependent on public funding simply don’t get the same kind of care as women with money. That is not Catholic.”

The “care” that “Catholics for Choice” describes involves the deliberate destruction of innocent human beings. In contrast, the Catholic Church teaches that care and respect must be extended to every human being, not just select groups.

“Upholding the sacred dignity of all human life is the duty of every member of society and this duty must be taken seriously in order to ensure that we are a part of a culture that affirms the right to life for all, especially the most vulnerable among us,” the Texas archdiocese said.

“It is our hope that one day Catholics for Choice will take the time to acquaint themselves with basic Catholic teachings, and acknowledge the truth of the Catholic faith, and not choose to misrepresent her teachings with false and inaccurate information and ads that only work to confuse and mislead the public,” it continued.

In response to the ad, the Minnesota Catholic Conference suggested that Catholics donate to pregnancy resource centers that “care for both mothers and children in a manner consistent with true social justice.”

A number of Catholic bishops have denounced “Catholics for Choice” for describing itself as “Catholic” because of its pro-abortion mission. The group is not affiliated with the Catholic Church.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

^ Those people are not Catholics.  They are heretics.

And Kaine is a disgrace.


----------



## kanozas

Belle Du Jour said:


> ^ Those people are not Catholics.  They are heretics.
> 
> And Kaine is a disgrace.



_*Revelations 3: 8,9*

*8*‘I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept My word, and have not denied My name. *9*‘Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them_ know that I have loved you.



Our Bishop put an insert into our Bulletin about it.  These folks will stop at nothing to confuse people - those who aren't very strong in their faith nor knowledgeable.  Here's what he had to say:


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## kanozas

I can comprehend the concept of embracing poverty as a virtue compared to chasing money and this world but....do you ever get the feeling that we push it as an excuse or default explanation for all the greed that exists  in this world when we won't delve too deeply into it?  Sometimes, I get the feeling that we gloss over the miseries of this world because we are too afraid to tackle these issues on a personal level - one where we see our personal responsibility.  We talk in generalities but not specifics.  It's like, "Let's not be greedy and alleviate the poverty in this world and the prejudice" but not, "
Let's stop and think about all the ways we are prejudiced against Blacks and Arabs."  We bring up the general concept of reconciliation without specifically addressing how the oppression is carried out.. 

Well, we have organizations, surely, but what about the majority of people hearing homilies and never get into these organizations, seminars, programs?  Is it enough to skirt around it and not name specifics?  We're having trouble identifying them to eradicate them.  It's like slapping ourselves on the hands and moving on.

The reading on Habakkuk from Sunday is understood.  We can't blame G-d for the evils in this world.  He has a time of retribution.  But the gospels compel us to dig deeply.  We have got to get beyond our comfort levels.


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## Galadriel

Keeping my beautiful Catholic sisters in my prayers. How are you all doing? Now that things are calming down for me, I have more time to post. Yay!


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## kanozas

Galadriel said:


> Keeping my beautiful Catholic sisters in my prayers. How are you all doing? Now that things are calming down for me, I have more time to post. Yay!




Hanging on!  It's a rough ride this election year.  It can truly consume one if not for care.  Thank you for thinking of us.


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## kanozas

Feeling a little lost culturally but KNOWING absolutely that I am not _lost _spiritually, given that the great sacrifice has occurred through the CHRIST and that all was foreshadowed, leading up to Jesus.  Passover and Yom Kippur are those traditions that beckon me and make me feel left out but then again, this is all part of the road.  I'm not left out, actually, I'm written in!  May everyone's names be written in the Book of Life and may all be inscribed for a good year!

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02054a.htm
*Day of Atonement*
_Help support New Advent and *get the full contents of this website as an instant download*. Includes the Catholic Encyclopedia, Church Fathers, Summa, Bible and more — all for only $19.99..._

(Hebrew _Yom Hakkippurim_. Vulgate, _Dies Expiationum_, and _Dies Propitiationis_ — Leviticus 23:27-28)

The rites to be observed on the Day of Atonement are fully set forth in the sixteenth chapter of Leviticus (cf. Exodus 30:10; Leviticus 23:27-31, 25:9; Numbers 29:7-11). It was a most solemn fast, on which no food could be taken throughout the whole the day, and servile works were forbidden. It was kept on nineteenth day of _Tischri_, which falls in September/October. The sacrifices included a calf, a ram, and seven lambs (Numbers 29:8-11). But the distinctive ceremony of the day was the offering of the two goats.

He (Aaron) shall make the two buck-goats to stand before Lord, in the door of the tabernacle of the testimony: and casting lots upon them both, one to be offered to the Lord and the other to be the emissary-goat: That whose lot fell to be offered to the Lord, he shall offer for sin: But that whose lot was to be the emissary goat he shall present alive before the Lord, that he may pour out prayers upon him, and let him go into the wilderness . . . After he hath cleansed the sanctuary, and the tabernacle, and the altar, let him offer the living goat: And putting both hands upon his head, let him confess all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their offences and sins, and praying that they may light on his head, he shall turn him out by a man ready for it, into the desert. And when the goat hath carried all their iniquities into an uninhabited land, and shall be let go into the desert, Aaron shall return into the tabernacle of the testimony. (Leviticus 16:7-10, 20-23).

The general meaning of the ceremony is sufficiently shown in the text. But the details present some difficulty. The Vulgate _caper emissarius_, "emissary goat", represents the obscure Hebrew _Azazel_, which occurs nowhere else in the Bible. Various attempts have been made to interpret its meaning. Some have taken it for the name of a place where the man who took the goat away used to throw it over a precipice, since its return was thought to forbode evil. Others, with better reason, take it for the name of an evil spirit; and in fact a spirit of this name is mentioned in the Apocryphal _Book of Henoch_, and later in Jewish literature. On this interpretation—which, though by no means new, finds favour with modern critics—the idea of the ceremony would seem to be that the sins were sent back to the evil spirit to whose influence they owed their origin. It has been noted that somewhat similar rites of expiation have prevailed among heathen nations. And modern critics, who refer the above passages to the Priestly Code, and to a post-Exilic date, are disposed to regard the sending of the goat to Azazel as an adaptation of a pre-existing ceremonial.

The significant ceremony observed on this solemn Day of Atonement does but give a greater prominence to that need of satisfaction and expiation which was present in all the ordinary sin-offerings. All these sacrifices for sin, as we learn from the teaching of the Epistle to the Hebrews, were figures of the great Sacrifice to come. In like manner these Jewish rites of atonement speak to us of the Cross of Christ, and of the propitiatory Sacrifice which is daily renewed in a bloodless manner on the Eucharistic Altar. For this reason it may be of interest to note, with Provost Maltzew, that the Jewish prayers used on the Day of Atonement foreshadow the common commemoration of the saints and the faithful departed in our liturgies (_Die Liturgien der orthodox-katholischen Kirche des Morgenlandes_, 252).


----------



## Galadriel

kanozas said:


> Feeling a little lost culturally but KNOWING absolutely that I am not _lost _spiritually, given that the great sacrifice has occurred through the CHRIST and that all was foreshadowed, leading up to Jesus.  Passover and Yom Kippur are those traditions that beckon me and make me feel left out but then again, this is all part of the road.  I'm not left out, actually, I'm written in!  May everyone's names be written in the Book of Life and may all be inscribed for a good year!
> 
> http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02054a.htm
> *Day of Atonement*
> _Help support New Advent and *get the full contents of this website as an instant download*. Includes the Catholic Encyclopedia, Church Fathers, Summa, Bible and more — all for only $19.99..._
> 
> (Hebrew _Yom Hakkippurim_. Vulgate, _Dies Expiationum_, and _Dies Propitiationis_ — Leviticus 23:27-28)
> 
> The rites to be observed on the Day of Atonement are fully set forth in the sixteenth chapter of Leviticus (cf. Exodus 30:10; Leviticus 23:27-31, 25:9; Numbers 29:7-11). It was a most solemn fast, on which no food could be taken throughout the whole the day, and servile works were forbidden. It was kept on nineteenth day of _Tischri_, which falls in September/October. The sacrifices included a calf, a ram, and seven lambs (Numbers 29:8-11). But the distinctive ceremony of the day was the offering of the two goats.
> 
> He (Aaron) shall make the two buck-goats to stand before Lord, in the door of the tabernacle of the testimony: and casting lots upon them both, one to be offered to the Lord and the other to be the emissary-goat: That whose lot fell to be offered to the Lord, he shall offer for sin: But that whose lot was to be the emissary goat he shall present alive before the Lord, that he may pour out prayers upon him, and let him go into the wilderness . . . After he hath cleansed the sanctuary, and the tabernacle, and the altar, let him offer the living goat: And putting both hands upon his head, let him confess all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their offences and sins, and praying that they may light on his head, he shall turn him out by a man ready for it, into the desert. And when the goat hath carried all their iniquities into an uninhabited land, and shall be let go into the desert, Aaron shall return into the tabernacle of the testimony. (Leviticus 16:7-10, 20-23).
> 
> The general meaning of the ceremony is sufficiently shown in the text. But the details present some difficulty. The Vulgate _caper emissarius_, "emissary goat", represents the obscure Hebrew _Azazel_, which occurs nowhere else in the Bible. Various attempts have been made to interpret its meaning. Some have taken it for the name of a place where the man who took the goat away used to throw it over a precipice, since its return was thought to forbode evil. Others, with better reason, take it for the name of an evil spirit; and in fact a spirit of this name is mentioned in the Apocryphal _Book of Henoch_, and later in Jewish literature. On this interpretation—which, though by no means new, finds favour with modern critics—the idea of the ceremony would seem to be that the sins were sent back to the evil spirit to whose influence they owed their origin. It has been noted that somewhat similar rites of expiation have prevailed among heathen nations. And modern critics, who refer the above passages to the Priestly Code, and to a post-Exilic date, are disposed to regard the sending of the goat to Azazel as an adaptation of a pre-existing ceremonial.
> 
> The significant ceremony observed on this solemn Day of Atonement does but give a greater prominence to that need of satisfaction and expiation which was present in all the ordinary sin-offerings. All these sacrifices for sin, as we learn from the teaching of the Epistle to the Hebrews, were figures of the great Sacrifice to come. In like manner these Jewish rites of atonement speak to us of the Cross of Christ, and of the propitiatory Sacrifice which is daily renewed in a bloodless manner on the Eucharistic Altar. For this reason it may be of interest to note, with Provost Maltzew, that the Jewish prayers used on the Day of Atonement foreshadow the common commemoration of the saints and the faithful departed in our liturgies (_Die Liturgien der orthodox-katholischen Kirche des Morgenlandes_, 252).



Beautiful words spoken and I love the background information on the Day of Atonement.


----------



## kanozas

A big shout-out to St. Michael the Archangel!  He did it!  THANK YOU, St. Michael, for helping us.  It was specific and he came and fixed it.  What a sign of relief.  Thank you, L-rd, for your providential care!  I had come upon a problem and sought out which saint is for which.  Someone invoked the help of St. Michael and their situation was a little similar.  Well, I went into prayer fully expecting him to help.  Didn't happen yesterday when I read that testimony but today, it happened after I still had the faith it was going to happen.  It just happened and I'm so happy about it.  We're not just in this life waiting for heaven, all the angels and saints are rooting for us    Another "thank you" to St. Philomena who interceded for us and we got the confirmation the same day!  Thank you, blessed one!  I got friends, y'all


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## Belle Du Jour

“The Most Holy Virgin in these last times in which we live has given a new efficacy to the recitation of the Rosary to such an extent that there is no problem, no matter how difficult it is, whether temporal or above all spiritual, in the personal life of each one of us, of our families…that cannot be solved by the Rosary. There is no problem, I tell you, no matter how difficult it is, that we cannot resolve by the prayer of the Holy Rosary.”

~Sister Lucia dos Santos, Fatima seer~

*Do you agree???*


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## Belle Du Jour

kanozas said:


> A big shout-out to St. Michael the Archangel!  He did it!  THANK YOU, St. Michael, for helping us.  It was specific and he came and fixed it.  What a sign of relief.  Thank you, L-rd, for your providential care!  I had come upon a problem and sought out which saint is for which.  Someone invoked the help of St. Michael and their situation was a little similar.  Well, I went into prayer fully expecting him to help.  Didn't happen yesterday when I read that testimony but today, it happened after I still had the faith it was going to happen.  It just happened and I'm so happy about it.  We're not just in this life waiting for heaven, all the angels and saints are rooting for us    Another "thank you" to St. Philomena who interceded for us and we got the confirmation the same day!  Thank you, blessed one!  I got friends, y'all



Yes Michael comes through in the paint.


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## kanozas

This is only part of the larger discussion and I offer this as part of that which is the work of the moralists of the church. 

https://www.ewtn.com/library/PROLIFE/INDIRECT.TXT
INDIRECT ABORTION
(Taken from "Medical Ethics" by Edwin F. Healy)

IN DIRECT abortion a living and nonviable fetus is removed from the
uterus. The reason for the removal is that the pregnancy, added to
some pathological condition from which the mother is suffering,
increases her difficulties or even lessens her chances of survival.
No condition exists, however, which makes the removal of the uterus
itself necessary as a means of saving the mother's life.

The abortion is termed indirect when the pregnant uterus itself is
excised because its condition is such that its removal is medically
necessary. If the uterus contains a living and nonviable fetus, the
fetus will of course inevitably die. There is no direct attack upon
the fetus, however, and its death is merely permitted as a secondary
effect of an act which needs to be performed and which, as we shall
see immediately, it is permissible to perform.

It is licit to excise a diseased uterus which is gravely dangerous,
even though the operation will indirectly kill the fetus which is
enclosed in the womb. The reason is that we may rightly apply the
four conditions of the principle of the twofold effect. The first
condition is fulfilled, for the operating surgeon's intention is to
save the life of the mother. He, of course, foresees the death of the
fetus, but he does not desire this evil effect. The second condition
is fulfilled, for the surgeon's act consists in ridding the woman of
a diseased part of her body which is jeopardizing her life. Hence
that which he sets out to accomplish is licit. If the fetus were not
present, the surgical operation of removing a diseased and dangerous
part of the woman's body, the cancerous uterus, would obviously be an
act which of its nature is not evil. The presence of the living fetus
in the diseased womb does not alter the nature of the act which the
surgeon performs. The operation is directly remedial regarding the
mother's body and is in itself unconnected with the pregnancy. The
third condition is fulfilled, for the evil effect (the death of the
fetus) does not cause the good effect (saving the life of the
mother). Whether the fetus were harmed by the operation or not would
make no difference in regard to producing the good effect. The fourth
condition is fulfilled, for safeguarding the mother's health is a
proportionately grave reason for permitting the death of the fetus.

The physician who performs an operation of this kind should have a
nurse procure beforehand a basin of lukewarm water in which the fetus
may be baptized immediately after the uterus is removed from the
mother. When the diseased womb has been extracted from the woman's
body, it should be cut open at once and the fetus should be baptized.
If the fetus is very small, baptism by immersion would be preferable.
If the fetus is enclosed in the sacs or membranes, the latter must of
course be removed, so that in the baptism the water will touch the
head of the infant.

In all such operations, where the surgery has important bearing on
two lives and not merely one, the surgeon must be sure that the
reason for operating is a proportionately grave one. If, for example,
the fetus is near viability and an immediate hysterectomy would only
probably, and not certainly, diminish the danger of death to the
mother, the operation would be illicit. In this case the pregnant
uterus may not be excised; for since the surgery would bring certain
death to the fetus, the latter's certain right to life must take
precedence over the mother's right to a doubtful benefit. Again, if
excising the uterus would only probably indirectly cause the death of
the fetus, surgery would be licit if needed to remove probable danger
to the mother's life. If, moreover, the operation would rarely result
in death for the fetus, it would be licitly performed when necessary,
not to save the mother's life, but to cure her of a grave disease. A
remote hope of saving the mother justifies surgery which is necessary
to prevent death of both the mother and the child, for the surgeon is
doing all in his power to save both. It is taken for granted that
there are no other effective means which would not endanger the
fetus.

Tubal Ectopic Pregnancy

In the tubal ectopic pregnancy the fertilized ovum lodges in some
part of the Fallopian tube. The reason that it does not continue its
descent into the uterus may be the pathological condition of the tube
itself or of the ovum. Once the fertilized ovum takes up its nesting
place in the tube, it begins to bore into the wall of the tube,
seeking as it does life-giving nourishment. This "boring-in" action
on the part of the tiny embryo perforates the inner layers of the
tube and the tube soon becomes weakened by internal hemorrhaging.
There is present a pathological condition of the tube, caused by the
erosive action of the trophoblast which is destroying the muscle wall
and penetrating blood vessels. The growing fetus causes the tube to
swell, and this swelling dangerously stretches the tube's outer wall.
Left in this condition, the tube will ordinarily rupture; and unless
surgery is performed very soon after the rupturing, the mother may
die.

When the Fallopian tube is in this condition, would it be licit to
slit it open and remove the fetus? Obviously this action would be
gravely evil, for it would constitute a direct, unjust attack on the
life of an innocent fetus. It would, in short, be murder. In such a
procedure the operating surgeon would set out to destroy the fetus as
a means of curing the mother, and thus he would directly intend its
death. The same conclusion would follow if the physician used drugs,
X ray, or any other method directly to terminate the life of the
fetus.

Would it, however, be likewise illicit to excise a Fallopian tube
which contains a living fetus? If the tube itself is healthy, there
would of course be no justifying reason for the excision. But in the
case of an ectopic pregnancy the Fallopian tube is in a definitely
pathological condition. Its inner portion is riddled, greatly
weakened, and full of internal hemorrhaging.

Once the tube has ruptured externally, the physician may and should
immediately tie off the arteries which supply blood to the tube and
then remove the tube by surgery. This operation is obviously
justified, for in it are fully verified the four conditions required
for the application of the principle of the twofold effect. The
excision of this ruptured and gravely dangerous part of the mother's
body is similar, in respect to the moral law, to the removal of a
pregnant uterus whose cancerous condition is at present gravely
threatening the mother's life.

But let us suppose that the tube in the case of an ectopic pregnancy
has not yet ruptured. Must the surgeon, before the excision, wait
until an external rupture occurs? The answer is that, if the tube is
at present in a gravely dangerous condition and if its excision
cannot be delayed without a notable increase of danger to the mother,
this Fallopian tube may be removed at once. This conclusion is based
on two principles: ( 1) Mutilation is licit if it is required to
conserve the health of the whole body. (2 ) An act which has two
effects, one good, the other bad, may be licitly performed, given
certain conditions. The latter principle is correctly applied to the
present case. The first condition is fulfilled, for the surgeon's
intention is good. He has as his purpose in operating the saving of
the mother's life. He foresees, it is true, that the fetus will die
when the tube where it is resting is removed from the woman's body,
but he does not desire its death. This is a merely permitted evil
effect. The second condition is fulfilled, for the surgeon's action
is not intrinsically evil. That which he sets out to accomplish is
cutting away a pathological or diseased part of the woman's body. The
third condition is fulfilled, for the action's evil effect (the death
of the fetus) does not cause the good effect (the preserving of the
mother's health). Whether the fetus died or not would hardly affect
the mother's health. It is the ridding the body of a seriously
corrupted part which directly promotes the mother's well-being. It is
not the fetus which at present constitutes the threat to the mother's
life; it is the diseased organ. The fourth condition is fulfilled,
for there is due proportion between the evil effect and the good
effect. The death that will result for the fetus is compensated for
by the life that will be saved for the mother.

In the analysis of the application of the fourth condition to our
present case, it is well to bear in mind the following facts. Tubal
pregnancies practically never go to term. In about ninety-nine cases
out of a hundred the fetus is aborted (and usually this will occur
before the twelfth week), or the tube ruptures externally; and in
either case the fetus will perish. Hence when one considers excising
a dangerously weakened but externally unruptured tube in ectopic
pregnancy, the choice lies between the following two modes of
procedure: ( 1) permitting the tube to remain in the woman's body
until it ruptures externally. This will bring death to the fetus and
will imperil the life of the mother; or (2) excising the tube at
once. This latter operation will bring to the mother safety but to
the fetus death. In the first procedure the fetus is, practically
speaking, just as certain to die as in the second procedure. As far
as the fetus is concerned, the difference between the first procedure
and the second procedure is that in the first procedure its life
probably would be lengthened by a few weeks. Hence in evaluating the
fourth condition the physician must have sufficient cause for
permitting the life of the fetus to be shortened because of the
excision of the tube.

Is it, then, licit in every case of ectopic pregnancy to excise the
diseased Fallopian tube? The answer is that the operation is licit
if the tube is at present gravely dangerous to the mother, or if
putting off the operation would involve grave danger. The physician
is the one who must decide when the tube may be considered to be
gravely dangerous. He must judge each individual case on its own
merits. The general rule which should be followed is this: If delay
in excising the diseased Fallopian tube would gravely jeopardize the
mother's life, the physician may operate at once. The ultimate
decision in a particular case is in the hands of the physician. It
may be that in most cases where an ectopic pregnancy is found, the
removal of the tube at once is required to avert existing and grave
danger from the mother. But this is not true in all cases. In some
few cases at least there is no grave danger to the mother when the
ectopic is first discovered. In these few cases the immediate removal
of the tube is not licit. The diseased tube may not be excised until
it is a source of grave danger to the mother. To excise the tube
before this time would indirectly shorten the life of the ectopic
fetus without a sufficient reason, and this would be illicit. Hence
in all cases in which grave danger is not actually present the
physician must adopt the expectant treatment.

There are cases in which the surgeon discovers an ectopic pregnancy
during the course of a surgical operation; for example, an
appendectomy. May he immediately excise the tube if to wait would
necessitate performing another grave operation? In this event,
because the expectant treatment would involve so great an added
danger to the mother, the surgeon may at once remove the pathological
tube. The same solution is to be given when the patient would have to
be kept under constant observation in a hospital and she refuses to
be hospitalized because she cannot afford the expense.

There are circumstances when the physician will sincerely doubt about
the gravity of the danger in a particular ectopic pregnancy. In that
event he may and should give the mother the benefit of the doubt. The
reason is that an immediate operation will probably have the good
effect of saving the mother's life, and will probably have the bad
effect of indirectly shortening to some extent the fetus' life. The
good effect will thus greatly outweigh the evil effect. Hence the
physician preferably will excise the diseased tube at once.

Misconceptions concerning the principles involved can arise because
of the fact that the diseased condition of the tube is due to the
fetus. Is it not true, one may argue, that the tube's weakened and
hemorrhaging condition was brought about by the fetus? Is not the
excision of the tube intended to rid the mother of the fetus, the
cause of her danger? We reply to this objection by admitting that
the fetus did cause the present riddled condition of the tube; but,
we add, the tube itself is now seriously diseased and would remain
diseased quite independently of the fetus. It is the tube itself, not
the fetus, which constitutes the present grave danger to the mother;
and so, given certain conditions, it may be excised.

*Some who are not acquainted with the facts believe that the Catholic
Church has changed her attitude in regard to the licitness of doing
surgery on ectopic pregnancies. Up to the present day the Church has
made only a few official pronouncements on this question, and these
pronouncements refer to the direct attack of the surgeon on the fetus
or to the direct removal of a nonviable fetus from the mother's womb.
Such procedures even today are condemned by all Catholic moralists.*
*On these questions the Church has not changed her view. *Catholic
ethicians, however, have changed their view with regard to the
licitness of excising the unruptured Fallopian tube in an ectopic
pregnancy, but this change of opinion stemmed from new medical
findings on this matter. Fifty years ago there was little medical
knowledge available with reference to the pathology of an ectopic
pregnancy. When medical authorities provided the information that the
diseased condition of the Fallopian tube, even before its external
rupture, in many cases of ectopic pregnancy constituted a grave and
present danger to the mother's life, the moralists declared that the
excision of the tube was licit even though the death of the fetus
could not be prevented. The moralists made no change in regard to
principles or in the application of principles. They merely applied
the principles to new facts and arrived at a new conclusion. It is
for physicians accurately to present the facts to the moralist. He
depends on them for medical information. Given the medical
information necessary, he will then apply the ethical principles to
the case and pronounce upon the licitness or illicitness of certain
procedures.

Ovarian and Abdominal Pregnancies

*If an ectopic pregnancy is clinging to an ovary or to the woman's
viscera, may the surgeon remove it? The solution to this case is
similar to that given in the case of a tubal pregnancy. If the organ
to which the fetus is clinging has become so diseased or weakened
that it is now a grave source of danger to the woman, the organ may
be licitly excised.* The organ may have become diseased independently
of the fetus or it may have become riddled and weakened because of
the "boring-in" action of the fetus. The initial source of the
danger does not matter. If at present the condition of the organ is
actually pathological and if it is a grave threat to the mother's
life, that part of her body may licitly be removed in order to
preserve the rest of the body. The same norms about delaying the
operation when delay is possible apply in this case as in that of a
tubal pregnancy.

*It will be noted that, in all the solutions which have been given,*
*the fetus itself is never directly attacked. A pathological organ*
*which is threatening the mother's life is removed, just as it would*
*be removed if it contained no fetus; and the death of the fetus is*
*permitted as a secondary effect of the operation.* It is conceivable
that there might be a rare case in which the fetus has taken up its
lodging next to a vital organ which cannot be removed, such as the
liver. If the fetus continues its riddling process, the organ will
soon be destroyed and the mother will die. Should such a case ever
occur in medical practice, the only thing that could be done to save
the mother would be to remove the fetus; and the only argument that
could be alleged to justify the removal would be that the fetus, now
actually attacking a vital organ of the mother, is an unjust
aggressor. The claim that the fetus can ever be, under any
circumstances, an unjust aggressor cannot be accepted as correct. The
fetus is a living human being. It has been placed by nature where it
now resides. It had no voice in the decision. It cannot be called an
unjust aggressor, for it is engaged in a purely natural process.
Surely we may not call nature unjust. To do so would be to call into
question the justice of God, the Author of nature, and this is
unthinkable. Hence we must conclude that the fetus may, in no
conceivable set of circumstances, be directly killed, for this would
be murder. This judgment is confirmed by the words of Pius XI: "What
could ever be a sufficient reason for excusing in any way the direct
murder of the innocent? . . . Who would call an innocent child an
unjust aggressor?"


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## kanozas

*http://www.cuf.org/2004/04/ectopic-for-discussion-a-catholic-approach-to-tubal-pregnancies/*

*A Catholic Approach to Tubal Pregnancies*
CUF
CUF
_From the Jan/Feb 2004 Issue of Lay Witness Magazine_

*ISSUE*: What is an ectopic, or “tubal,” pregnancy? What moral principles must be taken into account in treating a tubal pregnancy? What alternatives are available that respect both the mother’s life as well as the life of her unborn child?

*RESPONSE*: A woman’s egg or ovum descends from an ovary through the fallopian tube to the uterus. While on this path, the egg is fertilized and naturally continues this descent and implants in the uterus. Sometimes, however, the egg is impeded in its progress and instead implants somewhere along the way. This is called an ectopic pregnancy. “Ectopic” means “out of place.” Ectopic pregnancies are often called “tubal” pregnancies because over 95 percent occur in the fallopian tubes. (fertilized eggs can also implant in the abdomen, ovaries, or within the cervix).

A mother facing a tubal pregnancy risks imminent rupture of the fallopian tube. While the doctor would opt for the least risk and expense to the mother, all the options presented to her involve terminating the pregnancy. The mother, however, must respect both her life and that of her child.

There is no treatment available that can guarantee the life of both. The Church has moral principles that can be applied in ruling out some options, but she has not officially instructed the faithful as to which treatments are morally licit and which are illicit. Most reputable moral theologians, as discussed below, accept full or partial salpingectomy (removal of the fallopian tube), as a morally acceptable medical intervention in the case of a tubal pregnancy.

As is the case with all difficult moral decisions, the couple must become informed, actively seek divine guidance, and follow their well-formed conscience.

*DISCUSSION*: According to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC),[1] ectopic pregnancies have increased in frequency and now number roughly 100,000 a year.

Though detection and treatment have greatly improved, ectopic pregnancies still pose a serious health risk to the mother. Ectopic pregnancies are the leading cause of maternal deaths in the first trimester. While they often end in early miscarriage, waiting indefinitely for miscarriage to occur poses a grave threat to the mother. By ten weeks (in the case of a tubal pregnancy), the fallopian tube will likely rupture, causing severe hemorrhaging that can result in death. Such cases most often occur when the ectopic pregnancy is not diagnosed. Hence, most deaths caused by ectopic pregnancies each year are among minority groups and the poor whose access to prenatal care is limited.

Who are at risk for an ectopic pregnancy? All women are susceptible. However, there are factors that can increase the risk, namely: smoking, sexually transmitted diseases, tubal sterilizations, fertility drugs, and previous occurrences.

*Moral Principles*

*In the case of an ectopic pregnancy, the lives of both the mother and child are placed at risk. The moral teachings of the Church call for medical treatment that respects the lives of both. Most recently, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops reiterated these principles:*

*In the case of extrauterine pregnancy, no intervention is morally licit which constitutes a direct abortion.[2]*

*Operations, treatments and medications that have as their direct purpose the cure of a proportionately serious pathological condition of a pregnant woman are permitted when they cannot be safely postponed until the unborn child is viable, even if they will result in the death of the unborn child.[3]*

*On one hand, there can be no direct attack on the child (direct abortion) to save the life of the mother. On the other hand, the life of the mother is equally valuable and she must receive appropriate treatment. It might be that the only available remedy saves the life of the mother but, while not a direct abortion, brings about the unintended effect of the death of the child. Morally speaking, in saving the life of the mother, the Church accepts that the child might be lost.*

This principle applies in other pregnancy complications as well. With severe hemorrhaging, for example, if nothing is done, both will die. In respecting the life of the mother, the physician must act directly on the uterus. At that time the uterus loses its ability to support the life of the embryo. The mother’s life is preserved and there has been no intentional attack on the child. The mother and the uterus have been directly treated; a secondary effect is the death of the child.

*Another example arises in the treatment of uterine (endometrial) cancer during a pregnancy. The common treatments of uterine cancer are primarily hysterectomy (surgical removal of the uterus) and sometimes chemotherapy or radiation therapy. Again, taking the life of the baby is not intended, but a hysterectomy does mean the removal of the womb and the death of the child. Yet, if a hysterectomy must be performed to save the life of the mother, the Church would deem the procedure morally licit.*

Thus, a moral distinction must be made between directly and intentionally treating a pathology (a condition or abnormality that causes a disease) and indirectly and unintentionally causing the death of the baby in the process.

This distinction is derived from a moral principle called “double effect.” When a choice will likely bring about both an intended desirable effect and also an unintended, undesirable effect, the principle of double effect can be applied to evaluate the morality of the choice. The chosen act is morally licit when (a) the action itself is good, (b) the intended effect is good, and (c) the unintended, evil effect is not greater in proportion to the good effect. For example, “The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one’s own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not” (Catechism, no. 2263, citing St. Thomas Aquinas).

*Proposed Treatments*

Catholic Theologians typically discuss the morality of three common treatments for ectopic pregnancies according to the principle of double effect.[4] One approach utilizes the drug Methotrexate (MTX), which attacks the tissue cells that connect the embryo to its mother, causing miscarriage. A surgical procedure (salpingostomy) directly removes the embryo through an incision in the fallopian tube wall. Another surgical procedure, called a salpingectomy, removes all of the tube (full salpingectomy) or only the part to which the embryo is attached (partial salpingectomy), thereby ending the pregnancy.

The majority of Catholic moralists reject MTX and salpingostomy on the basis that these two amount to no less than a direct abortion. In both cases, the embryo is directly attacked, so the death of the embryo is not the unintended evil effect, but rather the very means used to bring about the intended good effect. Yet, for an act to be morally licit, not only must the intended effect be good, but also the act itself must be good. For this reason, most moralists agree that MTX and salpingostomy do not withstand the application of the principle of double effect.

The majority of Catholic moralists, while rejecting MTX or a salpingostomy, regard a salpingectomy as different in kind and thus licit according to the principle of double effect. What is the difference?

A partial salpingectomy is performed by cutting out the compromised area of the tube (the tissue to which the embryo is attached). The tube is then closed in the hope that it will function properly again. A full salpingectomy is performed when implantation and growth has damaged the tube too greatly or if the tube has ruptured. These moralists maintain that, unlike the first two treatments, when a salpingectomy is performed, the embryo is not directly attacked. Instead, they see the tissue of the tube where the embryo is attached as compromised or infected. The infected tube is the object of the treatment and the death of the child is indirect. Since the child’s death is not intended, but an unavoidable secondary effect of a necessary procedure, the principle of double effect applies.

Dr. T. Lincoln Bouscaren,[5] an early 20th-century ethicist and canon lawyer, argues that though the pathological condition is caused by the presence of an embryo in the fallopian tube, nonetheless “the tube has become so debilitated and disorganized, or destroyed by internal hemorrhage, that it now constitutes in itself a distinct source of peril to the mother’s life even before the external rupture of the tube.”[6]

Bouscaren admits that this is a “fine distinction,” but he essentially argues that the infection in the tube, though related to the pregnancy, is sufficiently distanced from the pregnancy to constitute a pathological condition of its own. He maintains that the inevitable rupture is the final end of a single pathology, i.e., a diseased and ever-worsening tube.

Dr. Bouscaren arrives at the same conclusion as the majority of Catholic moralists, that both the partial and full salpingectomy is licit. Some critics of this conclusion argue that salpingectomy is morally indistinguishable from salpingotomy or MTX. Therefore, Dr. Bouscaren’s explanation is helpful and would benefit from further elaboration by contemporary moral theologians.

There are two circumstances that make the use of any of these treatments morally acceptable. The first occurs when an ectopic pregnancy has been diagnosed, but no signs of life exist. The morality of treatment for ectopic pregnancies concerns the absolute value of human life. Conversely, there is no such moral consideration if the embryo has succumbed—there is no taking of human life (assuming a reasonable effort has been made to detect life).

The second circumstance occurs when the fallopian tube ruptures, whether or not the embryo is alive. A ruptured tube presents an immediate threat to both mother and child. If nothing is done, both will die. The doctor is morally obligated to act, even though only one life can be saved. The rupture is the cause of the child’s death, not any procedure the doctor performs. These two circumstances, miscarriage and rupture, present fundamentally different moral questions from instances in which both mother and child are alive and the fallopian tube itself does not pose an immediate threat to the mother’s life.


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## kanozas

*Wait and See*

Catholic moralists generally assume in their discussion of treatments for ectopic pregnancy that treatment will not be postponed. Perhaps most moralists believe there is no reasonable possibility to save the child. There are options, discussed below, but the availability of these options is virtually non-existent at this time. Other options are generally not even considered, because the standard protocol calls for only one of the three treatments that have been discussed thus far.

Surgical treatments, however, increase the risk of future ectopic pregnancies and/or reduce fertility, and there are situations in which postponing surgical intervention can be medically advantageous. “Expectant therapy” (or “expectant management”) is basically close observation in the hope that the pregnancy will resolve itself naturally. A combination of reduced hormone levels (movement toward miscarriage) and location of the embryo in a less constrictive part of the tube can indicate a decreasing chance of rupture.

While there are anecdotal accounts of fetuses living to six months without the tube rupturing, postponing surgery indefinitely is dangerous, given the virtual certainty of rupture long before viability. So, it’s one thing to wait a short period of time for miscarriage to occur spontaneously. It’s quite another to forego intervention altogether in anticipation of a life-threatening tubal rupture. Such a high-risk course of action is rightly discouraged and can even be indicative of a reckless disregard for the life of the mother.

*If Only*

There is a case that took place in 1915 in which a doctor, in the process of removing a tumor from a uterus, discovered an early tubal pregnancy. The operation on the tumor had left an incision in the uterus. The doctor transferred the embryo to the uterus through the incision. The embryo implanted, and the mother eventually gave birth to a healthy baby. The same hospital allowed further attempts at embryo transferal. Only a very small percentage were successfully implanted and born. Of those, the majority did not live very long. Most died between the ages of six and 12 years. With such low odds of the birth of a healthy baby, it is rare nowadays for medical professionals to consider embryo transferal. Recently a doctor at a Catholic fertility institute attempted three embryo transferals with none surviving to birth.

Among future possibilities might be the development of the artificial womb. Some shudder at such an option because of its possible abuse by those who want a child but wish to avoid pregnancy. However, a morally deficient motivation doesn’t nullify the potential of the technology itself. No one would question life support for a child who is born prematurely and cannot live on its own. An artificial womb could theoretically provide adequate life support for a child at an earlier stage.

*Prayerful Discernment*

It is the task and duty of those in the relevant professional fields, especially Catholics, to seek for means by which life at whatever stage can be preserved, protected, and nurtured. Unfortunately, the thrust of contemporary medical technology has been to terminate the tubal pregnancy as directly as possible without any consideration of ways to save the life of the embryo. This renders the application of the “double effect” theory to tubal pregnancies problematic, as the intended good of preserving the mother’s health seems to be accomplished directly through the efficient taking of the child’s life. This can be especially disturbing to Catholic couples who face this situation.

*While the Church has not spoken officially about the morality of specific treatment options, she does provide several principles rooted in the natural law concerning human life. In applying these principles, the great majority of moral theologians agree that the salpingectomy does not constitute a direct attack on the life of the baby and is morally licit. A couple may serenely choose this option in good faith without fear that they are violating Church teaching.*

Because the salpingectomy is considered by most theologians to be morally acceptable, the issue becomes how long to wait before proceeding with this invasive treatment, given the grave health risk posed by the ectopic pregnancy. This will vary from case to case. Sometimes the immediate risk is low and allowing the miscarriage to occur naturally preserves the mother’s fallopian tube. Conversely, there are also cases in which the fallopian tube itself is so compromised that it must be immediately removed to preserve the life of the mother.

The course of treatment the woman chooses should be determined by her informed conscience. This means that she must strive to understand the natural law regarding the value of life—her own and the baby’s—and choose a course of action that will respect both. She must also become informed about alternative treatment and the facts related to her own condition. She can then prayerfully discern the course of action she will take.

——————————————————————————–

[1] Much of the statistical information in this Faith Fact was gathered from the CDC

[2] National Conference of Catholic Bishops. _Ethical and Religious Directives for Health Care Services_ (Washington, DC: NCCB, 1994), 28

[3] Ibid., 47.

[4] Cf. William E. May, _Catholic Bioethics and the Gift of Human Life_ (Huntington, IN: Our Sunday Visitor, Inc., 2000), 182-83.

[5] T. Lincoln Bouscaren, _Ethics of Ectopic Operations_ (Chicago, IL: Loyola University Press, 1933).

[6] Ibid., 160-61.

*Recommended reading:*

Holy Bible (Catholic edition)

Catechism of the Catholic Church

*Vatican II Documents*

Catholic Bioethics and the Gift of Human Life by William May

Medicine and Christian Morality by Thomas J. O’Donnell, S.J

*Other Available FAITH FACTS:*

• Moral Conscience • Principle of Double Effect • Hope: The Pilgrim’s Virtue • Where Do We Go From Here: The Concept of Limbo • Canonical Misconceptions: Pope Pius IX and the Church’s Teaching on Abortion

Call 1-800-MY-FAITH (693-2484).

FAITH FACTS are a free membership service of Catholics United for the Faith.

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827 N. Fourth St., Steubenville, OH 43952
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www.cuf.org

© 2004 Catholics United for the Faith

Last edited: 12/3/2003


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## kanozas

Did anyone witness that shameless indirect endorsement of the RCC for Trump at that dinner?  It's no coincidence Cardinal Dolan was seated next to Hilary and that Trump said that she hates catholics.  Just awful.  As they tell us to prayerfully consider our candidates, they had no business with this at all.  And  Trump is not pro-life at all.  He's a flip-flopper.  And tell me why the Repubs had their chance to overturn Roe vs. Wade but didn't?  Because they wanted to be the incumbent for the following elections.  None of them are actually pro-life, from conception to natural death.  And here they are, with that flagrant display of endorsement of this racist, genocidal rapist, all decked out in cardinal splendor.  I'm disgusted.


----------



## Galadriel

I believe the moral principle in play is the "double effect," whereby you do a good action with a good intent/for a good purpose, even though it may have a negative, *unintended* after-effect. So attempting to save a mother's life is good, and carefully removing the fetus (not directly killing or harming the fetus) even if the fetus may not be viable, is the negative after-effect. A similar case would be a pregnant woman who must undergo chemotherapy or take certain life-saving medication. What we would consider immoral would be a direct assault on the fetus or a direct killing of the fetus. Perhaps that's what they're getting at?


----------



## Galadriel

kanozas said:


> Did anyone witness that shameless indirect endorsement of the RCC for Trump at that dinner?  It's no coincidence Cardinal Dolan was seated next to Hilary and that Trump said that she hates catholics.  Just awful.  As they tell us to prayerfully consider our candidates, they had no business with this at all.  And  Trump is not pro-life at all.  He's a flip-flopper.  And tell me why the Repubs had their chance to overturn Roe vs. Wade but didn't?  Because they wanted to be the incumbent for the following elections.  None of them are actually pro-life, from conception to natural death.  And here they are, with that flagrant display of endorsement of this racist, genocidal rapist, all decked out in cardinal splendor.  I'm disgusted.



Yes, I just don't believe he's genuinely pro-life.


----------



## kanozas

Exactly!!  @Galadriel   It wasn't that I was promoting illicit direct abortion.  I've explained my usage of the term "indirect abortion" and have had a miscarriage before.  Guess what they referred to it as?  Spontaneous abortion.  It's the details that matter.  I'm as orthodox as any other orthodox catholic to have posted this material, to have comprehended this material and to comprehend, as they have mentioned in these articles, that the couple in such a situation must remain prayerful and seek council from their priest.  I don't know if any such thing would go through the tribunal (quick medical decisions waiting) but I believe as they, the moralists, that the Church allows for such cases.  There basically are no direct mentions of such cases by the Magisterium, to my knowledge.  Shrugs.


----------



## kanozas

None of them are, in the true sense of "pro-life" because it's from conception until natural death with all stages in between.  Why didn't the Republican majority repeal Roe vs. Wade when they had the chance?  Re-election, that's why.  They are NOT pro-life.  Lies, lies and more lies.  They can say they are pro-minority but their actions prove otherwise.  Why should I or anyone else take them at face value?  SMH.  They all lie.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Galadriel said:


> I believe the moral principle in play is the "double effect," whereby you do a good action with a good intent/for a good purpose, even though it may have a negative, *unintended* after-effect. So attempting to save a mother's life is good, and carefully removing the fetus (not directly killing or harming the fetus) even if the fetus may not be viable, is the negative after-effect. A similar case would be a pregnant woman who must undergo chemotherapy or take certain life-saving medication. What we would consider immoral would be a direct assault on the fetus or a direct killing of the fetus. Perhaps that's what they're getting at?



I was trying to say this in another thread. This is treatment. The church would not call this "abortion" and say this form of "abortion" is licit.  This scenario is licit because you are treating the mother. Obviously if the fetus dies that was never the primary intent.


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## kanozas

They use the term "abortion" medically and it was fully explained.  My interest was the technical term only.  It's a general term, actually.    There are all kinds of sins...some are mortal, others are venial...they are still sins.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

kanozas said:


> They use the term "abortion" medically and it was fully explained.  My interest was the technical term only.  It's a general term, actually.    There are all kinds of sins...some are mortal, others are venial...they are still sins.



Completely understand from a medical perspective what the term abortion means (spontaneous, missed, induced, etc).  I maintain the church does not approve of any form of induced abortion. The church approves of *treatment* to save the life of the mother.


----------



## kanozas

Belle Du Jour said:


> Completely understand from a medical perspective what the term abortion means (spontaneous, missed, induced, etc).  I maintain the church does not approve of any form of induced abortion. The church approves of *treatment* to save the life of the mother.




Indirect abortion per the article *is* treatment.  Yes, to save the life of the mother, which I maintained ad nauseum.  Surgery for ectopic pregnancy is still indirect abortive treatment.  It's going to terminate the pregnancy indirectly as the child will not survive.    I don't know why you're sweating me on the terminology because it's the same thing I'm talking about lol. Granted, you loathe the term "abortion" because it often means directly, with intent, to kill an unborn child.  That is not the usage of the term here.   I haven't said otherwise and is obvious in the medical perspective.  

Was that comment about heretics a roundabout  jab at me somehow?  Hilary, who was mentioned previously, is not at all catholic.  So, which catholics were you referring to as not being orthodox?


----------



## Belle Du Jour

kanozas said:


> Indirect abortion per the article *is* treatment.  Yes, to save the life of the mother, which I maintained ad nauseum.  Surgery for ectopic pregnancy is still indirect abortive treatment.  It's going to terminate the pregnancy indirectly as the child will not survive.    I don't know why you're sweating me on the terminology because it's the same thing I'm talking about lol. Granted, you loathe the term "abortion" because it often means directly, with intent, to kill an unborn child.  That is not the usage of the term here.   I haven't said otherwise and is obvious in the medical perspective.
> 
> Was that comment about heretics a roundabout  jab at me somehow?  Hilary, who was mentioned previously, is not at all catholic.  So, which catholics were you referring to as not being orthodox?



I'm very surprised you would ask me if I was taking a jab at you and I'm curious what in my statement led you to believe that.

I was simply referring to Catholics who are not in line with church teachings.  A person cannot claim to be Catholic and pick/choose which doctrine to follow.  You said all Catholics are orthodox by definition. I disagree. A baptized Catholic can very much be in heresy.  If you don't fall into that category then clearly my statement doesn't include you


----------



## kanozas

Belle Du Jour said:


> I'm very surprised you would ask me if I was taking a jab at you and I'm curious what in my statement led you to believe that.
> 
> I was simply referring to Catholics who are not in line with church teachings.  A person cannot claim to be Catholic and pick/choose which doctrine to follow.  You said all Catholics are orthodox by definition. I disagree. A baptized Catholic can very much be in heresy.  If you don't fall into that category then clearly my statement doesn't include you



  Well, I'm just asking.  I wondered because it was the timing of the comment made as well as the discussion on "treatment" to save the mother of which I referred to it as "abortion."  I was left wondering who that was made at since Hilary isn't even catholic.  I assumed you were talking about her (supporting gay marriage and abortion) because much of the discussion  evolved around her.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

kanozas said:


> Well, I'm just asking.  I wondered because it was the timing of the comment made as well as the discussion on "treatment" to save the mother of which I referred to it as "abortion."  I was left wondering who that was made at since Hilary isn't even catholic.  I assumed you were talking about her (supporting gay marriage and abortion) because much of the discussion  evolved around her.



Please don't create something out of nothing...The first time I mentioned Catholics not being orthodox was in reference to priests:

https://longhaircareforum.com/threads/2016-christian-random-thoughts.778459/page-12#post-23238903

So clearly I was not referring to you or being backhanded.

Then you said all Catholics were by definition orthodox and I disagreed: 

https://longhaircareforum.com/threads/2016-christian-random-thoughts.778459/page-12#post-23239411


----------



## kanozas

Belle Du Jour said:


> Please don't create something out of nothing...The first time I mentioned Catholics not being orthodox was in reference to priests:
> 
> https://longhaircareforum.com/threads/2016-christian-random-thoughts.778459/page-12#post-23238903
> 
> So clearly I was not referring to you or being backhanded.
> 
> Then you said all Catholics were by definition orthodox and I disagreed:





Oh, okay.  Thank you for explaining.  I thought you were miffed at me or something.  My mistake.  We all have differing opinions so that's not a problem.


----------



## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> Completely understand from a medical perspective what the term abortion means (spontaneous, missed, induced, etc).  I maintain the church does not approve of any form of induced abortion. The church approves of *treatment* to save the life of the mother.



I'll have to re-read the article, but I thought it was speaking of emergency c-section or its equivalent and not a direct, induced abortion?


----------



## kanozas

Galadriel said:


> I'll have to re-read the article, but I thought it was speaking of emergency c-section or its equivalent and not a direct, induced abortion?



Appendectomies or other non-pregnancy related surgeries that will stress the child, ectopic pregnancies when their is imminent danger of massive hemorrhage, cancer of the uterus that is spreading.  They were speaking on immediately baptizing the fetus.  I couldn't be such a surgeon, I'd feel so badly each time.  I bet they all do but they have what it takes to get over it quickly, I suppose.  I'd be a mess.    I've even heard of some fibroids being highly dangerous to the mother...all dealing with hemorrhaging, I bet.It's truly dangerous to be pregnant.  Goodness.  It's pretty long and you have to stop and think about a few things.  Those 4 moral points having to be met are the basis.  I don't think this particular info was ever discussed in my RCIA but then again, it's pretty uncommon.


----------



## kanozas

I heard a discussion elsewhere and it disturbed me.  Basically, die, if that's what will be the outcome.  No treatment to preserve the mother.  These were WOMEN.  I was beside myself.  How could we think our Church is so callous and unconcerned in this way?  Well, I dunno how many Catholics were there but not all of them were.  Of course, no direct intent to harm the child.  Just pray, right?  What if G-d made doctors and surgery?  SMH.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Galadriel said:


> I'll have to re-read the article, but I thought it was speaking of emergency c-section or its equivalent and not a direct, induced abortion?



This discussion stems from another thread in which a statement was made "I Don't believe in any abortion except for that which our Church approves - in the event the life of the mother is endangered" and I replied that the church does not approve of abortion, rather treatment. I feel there is a distinction between the two terms.  That's where the discussion originated so I was still countering that point not this article. I am fully aware that the church approves of treatment to save a mothers life even if the fetus is harmed in the process. However that is not the same as a direct or induced abortion.


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## kanozas

Wanted to share this from past Sunday.  Alpha.org   Bear Grylls!!!!


----------



## Lucia

Belle Du Jour said:


> Confession--actually ALL the sacraments--are a blessing.  I don't understand how people function well without them...I would be a mess.  I still don't like having to go but I definitely feel better afterwards.



They just don't know how about the sacraments at all, or they just don't know how important they are for us imperfect humans living in this fallen world, or,they don't think they're Biblical (not true, they're in the Bible) and forgo them altogether.


----------



## Lucia

Belle Du Jour said:


> “The Most Holy Virgin in these last times in which we live has given a new efficacy to the recitation of the Rosary to such an extent that there is no problem, no matter how difficult it is, whether temporal or above all spiritual, in the personal life of each one of us, of our families…that cannot be solved by the Rosary. There is no problem, I tell you, no matter how difficult it is, that we cannot resolve by the prayer of the Holy Rosary.”
> 
> ~Sister Lucia dos Santos, Fatima seer~
> 
> *Do you agree???*


ITA 100% 
The Roasary is a comfort and a weapon when needed.


----------



## Lucia

kanozas said:


> A big shout-out to St. Michael the Archangel!  He did it!  THANK YOU, St. Michael, for helping us.  It was specific and he came and fixed it.  What a sign of relief.  Thank you, L-rd, for your providential care!  I had come upon a problem and sought out which saint is for which.  Someone invoked the help of St. Michael and their situation was a little similar.  Well, I went into prayer fully expecting him to help.  Didn't happen yesterday when I read that testimony but today, it happened after I still had the faith it was going to happen.  It just happened and I'm so happy about it.  We're not just in this life waiting for heaven, all the angels and saints are rooting for us    Another "thank you" to St. Philomena who interceded for us and we got the confirmation the same day!  Thank you, blessed one!  I got friends, y'all



You've got friends in high places. 

Deuteronomy 20:4

For the LORD your God is the one who goes with you to fight for you against your enemies to give you victory."

Deuteronomy 31:8

The LORD himself goes before you and will be with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you. Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged. 

Matthew 21:22

If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer

Isaiah 55:10-11

As the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish, so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.




Alleluia!  God be praised and thanks to all the Saints who interceded on your behalf. That's a blessing.


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## kanozas

Our visitng priest today said to pray for those considering answering the call for the priesthood because it's difficult to live it out.  Someone spat on his friend, also a priest.  I believe it was over someone accusing all priests of being perverts.  SMh.


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## Belle Du Jour

Deleted


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## kanozas

Snopes Link
*Papal Null*
*An uncorroborated source reported that Pope Francis said he had lost all faith in American Christians after the election of Donald Trump.*





 
*Kim LaCapria*
Nov 14, 2016

Share
14




Claim: After Donald Trump was elected president, Pope Francis said he had lost all faith in American Christians.




unproven
Example: [_Collected via e-mail, November 2016_]

Just saw this quote and it just doesn't seem right. Can you please check it out? Thanks!

"True Christians do not treat anyone differently, talk bad about them or look down on them. God help poor Mexicans, Africans and Cubans who wanted to realize American dream" he said. "I am not sure whether we still can vouch for the faith of American Christians, as they need more wisdom looking at the leader they finally elected," said Pope Francis."

Origin:On 9 November 2016, a small Sri Lankan blog published an article reporting that Pope Francis stated he had lost all faith in American Christians due to the election of Donald Trump as President on 8 November 2016:

*However, during a mass [on 9 November 2016], Pope Francis said that, he is simply shocked to see how Americans elected their president despite the significant differences of Christian values both candidates possess. Jesus never looked at race, religion, creed or cast when healing people, reached out to everyone with the same love and care. Anyone could reach out to Jesus or the god for forgiveness and guidance.

"True Christians do not treat anyone differently, talk bad about them or look down on them. God help poor Mexicans, Africans and Cubans who wanted to realize American dream" he said.

"I am not sure whether we still can vouch for the faith of American Christians, as they need more wisdom looking at the leader they finally elected", said Pope Francis.*

_Last time when pope made the controversial statement *Trump* *responded* promptly *saying* that its ""d*isgraceful" for a religious leader to question anyone's faith.*

*He added*, "*If and when the Vatican is attacked by ISIS, which as everyone knows is ISIS's ultimate trophy,* *I can promise you that the pope would have only wished and prayed that Donald Trump would have been the president,". Ironically he is now the president and he has another statement by Pope Francis to deal forthwith.*_

The article appeared to be the sort that would attract attention in the tense aftermath of the 2016 election, but no other sources we could find reported any similar about the Pontiff and his take on the election. Early on in the 2016 election cycle, Pope Francis asserted he would make no effort to influence the Catholic vote, although His Holiness was inaccurately claimed to have endorsed Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump, and Bernie Sanders, by fake news purveyors.

Although the web site on which the article was hosted did not feature a disclaimer marking it as fake news, it did assert:

The information contained in this website is for general information purposes only. The information provided by "Religious Mind" are news content which we try to keep up to date and correct, yet we make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the website or the information, products, services, or related graphics contained on the website for any purpose. Any reliance you place on such information is therefore strictly at your own consent and accord.

Pope Francis made several appearances and statements in the days following the 8 November 2016 U.S. election, but none appeared to pertain to the outcome of that event. No credible sources reported anything resembling the claim which circulated, much less any commentary the Pope had lost "all faith" in American Christians (and neither did he make such remarks on Twitter).

Originally published: 14 November 2016

_____________________________________________________________


Sorry, Donald, he won't wish for anything related to you.  His faith is in the Risen Christ, not YOU.  
.


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## kanozas

_*Question:*  Are they referring to those remarried after an annulment has been issued by the Tribunal??  _
_______________________________________________________________________
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/new...if-the-pope-doesnt-make-amoris-clarification/
*Cardinal Burke: we will make ‘formal act of correction’ if Pope doesn’t issue Amoris clarification*
by *Dan Hitchens*
posted Wednesday, 16 Nov 2016




Cardinal Raymond Burke, left, stands by Pope Francis saluting bishops, at the end of a general audience in St. Peter's Square (AP)
The cardinal said there was a tradition of issuing a formal correction if a Pope is in error

Cardinal Raymond Burke has said it may be necessary to make a “formal act of correction” if Pope Francis doesn’t answer a letter from four cardinals asking him to clarify aspects of Amoris Laetitia.

In an interview with Edward Pentin of _National Catholic Register_, Cardinal Burke said that if the Pope were to teach error or heresy, “It is the duty in such cases, and historically it has happened, of cardinals and bishops to make clear that the Pope is teaching error and to ask him to correct it.”

Cardinal Burke is one of four cardinals who have written to the Pope asking for a clarification of _Amoris Laetitia_. They say that the document could be read as contradicting Church teaching on the moral law and on the question of Communion for the remarried. The Pope has declined to reply to the letter.

Asked what would happen if the Pope remained silent, Cardinal Burke replied: “Then we would have to address that situation. There is, in the tradition of the Church, the practice of correction of the Roman Pontiff. It is something that is clearly quite rare. But if there is no response to these questions, then I would say that it would be a question of taking a formal act of correction of a serious error.”

Such an act of formal correction would be extremely unusual. One example is the challenge to Pope John XXII in the 1330s. He had publicly taught – though only as his personal opinion – that souls in heaven would not actually see God until the Final Judgment, a teaching contrary to Church doctrine.

In response, several theologians challenged Pope John. A few were punished, but the Pope backed down after a joint letter by theologians from the University of Paris, under the leadership of Paludanus, the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem. The letter professed total obedience to John, but affirmed that the teachings being attributed to him were contrary to the Catholic faith. Before his death John withdrew his heretical opinion.

Cardinal Burke’s suggestion of a “formal correction” comes after a debate over whether the remarried can receive Communion while in a sexually active relationship outside marriage. The Church has taught that this is contrary to the dogma of the indissolubility of marriage.

In his apostolic exhortation _Amoris Laetitia_, the Pope made no direct reference to the question, but some bishops have interpreted his words as meaning that some remarried people can receive Communion, even if they are still in a sexual relationship. This is the interpretation of the Buenos Aires bishops, which the Pope has appeared to privately favour.

In a probable allusion to the Buenos Aires bishops, Cardinal Burke said: “Even diocesan directives are confused and in error.” He added that there was ”tremendous division” in the Church over Communion and other related points, concerning the moral law and marriage.

He said the four cardinals had intervened “because so many people are saying: ‘We’re confused, and we don’t understand why the cardinals or someone in authority doesn’t speak up and help us.’”


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## jerseyhaircare

Pope Francis has declared that abortion, which remains a "grave sin" in the eyes of the Catholic Church, can be absolved by ordinary priests for the foreseeable future — instead of requiring the intervention of a bishop.

The change was implemented on a temporary basis, for one year only, as part of the Catholic Church's "Year of Mercy," which began last December and ended on Sunday.

In a letter released on Monday, the pope announced that the change was being extended indefinitely.




*The Two-Way *
* Pope Calls Abortion Evidence Of 'The Throwaway Culture'*
"I wish to restate as firmly as I can that abortion is a grave sin, since it puts an end to an innocent life," the pope wrote in the letter. "In the same way, however, I can and must state that there is no sin that God's mercy cannot reach and wipe away when it finds a repentant heart seeking to be reconciled with the Father. May every priest, therefore, be a guide, support and comfort to penitents on this journey of special reconciliation."

"Because the Roman Catholic Church holds abortion to be such a serious sin, it had long put the matter of granting forgiveness for it in the hands of a bishop, who could either hear the woman's confession himself or delegate that to a priest who was expert in such situations," The Associated Press explains.

Article continues after sponsorship



*The Two-Way *
* On Divorce And Remarriage, Pope Calls For More Grace, Less Dogma*
In the U.S., Catholic News Service reports, most bishops have routinely granted the faculty to their priests, but the Year of Mercy made the permission universal.

In the letter released Monday, the pope indicated he was extending the ability to absolve abortions "lest any obstacle arise between the request for reconciliation and God's forgiveness."




*Parallels *
* The Pope Commemorates The Reformation That Split Western Christianity*
As the Two-Way reported last year, when the change for the Year of Mercy was announced, allowing priests to grant absolution for abortion does not constitute a "doctrinal shift" for the church.

"Forgiveness has always been available — albeit through more formal channels," Candida R. Moss, a professor of New Testament and Early Christianity at the University of Notre Dame, told NPR at the time. "That message wasn't out there because the rhetoric that accompanies abortion is so elevated that it eclipses the Church's teaching on forgiveness and mercy."

*I have no opinions as of yet. Just thought this was interesting.*


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## NOEChic

I thought forgiveness was given by God?


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## NICOLETHENUMBERONE

So, they are saying that a priest has to forgive an abortion? A man can't forgive my sin; God has to do that so this doctrine is something I will never understand.


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## jerseyhaircare

I've never been Catholic, so I don't really get it. Catholic ladies, what say you?


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## beingofserenity

Do we pray to God for forgiveness? Or do we pray to God in Jesus' name for forgiveness?


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## chicitygirl

NOEChic said:


> I thought forgiveness was given by God?



Right. That's why I can't get down with a human (Catholic Pope, Baptist Preacher or anyone in between) having a say in who gets forgiven and for what.  It's not their place.


----------



## kanozas

NOEChic said:


> I thought forgiveness was given by God?




It is, ladies.  However, Jesus gave power and authority to his apostles  and their predecessors throughout history.  There is a protocol.  Absolution is through G-d, via the priest.  Abortions are so common place now, they do need direct and "easy" absolution via priests rather than awaiting the tribunal or via the bishops.  Easier access and quicker so one can return to receiving the sacraments.

There are a lot of charges made against the Church without people understanding it's formation.  Mortal sins must be confessed via the priest for absolution.  It's biblical.  Venial sins can be forgiven without confession and by taking communion (of course, one must be repentant).  Remember before Jesus and even during His life on earth, people went to the Temple to make sacrifices for their sins and the mediator was the priest. Even Jesus was ransomed by the sacrifice made by his parents.

_
sac·ra·ment
ˈsakrəmənt/
noun
noun: *sacrament*; plural noun: *sacraments*
a religious ceremony or act of the Christian Church that is regarded as an outward and visible sign of inward and spiritual divine grace, in particular._


----------



## NOEChic

kanozas said:


> It is, ladies.  However, Jesus gave power and authority to his apostles  and their predecessors throughout history.  There is a protocol.  Absolution is through G-d, via the priest.  Abortions are so common place now, they do need direct and "easy" absolution via priests rather than awaiting the tribunal or via the bishops.  Easier access and quicker.


I'm good. I talk directly to God everyday. I don't need nor want a middle man.


----------



## kanozas

NOEChic said:


> I'm good. I talk directly to God everyday. I don't need nor want a middle man.




My response was not a judgment, it was an *explanation* of the questions, of what *is*, not what people 'think' it is.  I don't proselytize anybody and being that you are not a Catholic,  you wouldn't be held to it (eta: ).  I only offer answers to the question.


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## RoundEyedGirl504

He's been very progressive as pope, I know this will get backlash though.


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## qchelle

religious people are so weird


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## cutiepiebabygirl

This is the major difference between Catholicism and Protestantism.

Catholicism believes you have to go before a priest confess and request forgiveness for your sins.

**To clarify patron saints are called upon to help with prayer.**

Protestantism says we can approach God all by ourselves, you can speak directly to Him for forgiveness, you don't need a representative.


----------



## 1QTPie

I don't understand Catholicism or religion in general.  Just sit back and really think about this.  Put a rational spin on this. It's just... it's too much.


----------



## oneastrocurlie

Seeing the article and reading poster's the explanation is interesting.


----------



## kanozas

cutiepiebabygirl said:


> This is the major difference between Catholicism and Protestantism.
> 
> *Catholicism believes you have to go before a priest/ patron saint and then the priest/ patron saint goes before God on your behalf and asks for your forgiveness. You can not go to God yourself.*
> 
> Protestantism says we can approach God all by ourselves, you can speak directly to Him, you don't need a representative.




Absolutely incorrect.  The first step of penitence is to admit your fault before G-d before you go to the confessional.  SMH.  There's so much misinformation.  Patron saints are not for confession unless it's a prayer for them to help you make a more in-depth, honest confession.  People pray for the intercession of Padre Pio, an Italian priest now  saint.  It's rooted in the "Old" Testament.  Matthew 5:17  "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill." 

There is so much misinformation about the Church that I'm offering this as solely an explanation.  I think it's best to know from the SOURCE rather than hearsay.  This is no attempt to convert people.   This is solely to set the record straight because of the misconceptions and misinformation.  If people care to read this info, here is something to further explain it.  Reason I'm adamant, this is no different than some people saying, "You know, those Black people do xyz..."  and it's actually not true or, at least, not true of most.  Information is knowledge and power.  It's about understanding completely what you are reading.  

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-forgiveness-of-sins

Excerpt:

""
_All pardon for sins ultimately comes from Christ’s finished work on Calvary, but how is this pardon received by individuals? Did Christ leave us any means within the Church to take away sin? The Bible says he gave us two means. 


Baptism was given to take away the sin inherited from Adam (original sin) and any sins we personally committed before baptism—sins we personally commit are called actual sins, because they come from our own acts. Thus on the day of Pentecost, Peter told the crowds, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38), and when Paul was baptized he was told, "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16). And so Peter later wrote, "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21). 


For sins committed after baptism, a different sacrament is needed. It has been called penance, confession, and reconciliation, each word emphasizing one of its.aspects. During his life, Christ forgave sins, as in the case of the woman caught in adultery (John 8:1–11) and the woman who anointed his feet (Luke 7:48). He exercised this power in his human capacity as the Messiah or Son of man, telling us, "the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (Matt. 9:6), which is why the Gospel writer himself explains that God "had given such authority to men" (Matt. 9:8). _""


----------



## kanozas

qchelle said:


> _religious_ people are so weird




No, not actually.  Replace that with any ethnicity or race to generalize and see it in a different light.  I'm out now, just tried to  give factual information. We face these types of opinions quite often, especially with protestants.  Well, what can I say.  I'd rather go to the source if I have a question.  Catechism is online.  Same if I wanted to know about Hinduism, I'd ask for source information from an adherent to the faith just so I got my info correctly.  No hard feelings.  But it's kinda hostile in here.    Thing is, these rulings affect catholics, not for outsiders.  It would be nice if people didn't invent nor have misconceptions they spread as fact.


----------



## chicitygirl

@konozas I appreciate you providing info.


----------



## dicapr

kanozas said:


> No, not actually.  Replace that with any ethnicity or race to generalize and see it in a different light.  I'm out now, just tried to  give factual information. We face these types of opinions quite often, especially with protestants.  Well, what can I say.  I'd rather go to the source if I have a question.  Catechism is online.  Same if I wanted to know about Hinduism, I'd ask for source information from an adherent to the faith just so I got my info correctly.  No hard feelings.  But it's kinda hostile in here.    Thing is, these rulings affect catholics, not for outsiders.  It would be nice if people didn't invent nor have misconceptions they spread as fact.



I'm not catholic but I think it is silly for people to pop up and criticize the religion. If you don't believe it and don't practice it read the article and keep it moving.

Thanks for the taking the time to explain the reasoning behind the ruling. As for how valid I think it is it doesn't matter-it is for practicing Catholics.


----------



## cutiepiebabygirl

@kanozas  I updated my post about the patron saints. I was in a hurry and rushed that. Thanks for the correction.

I stand by my statement otherwise, there are several differences between the two, but Protestantism came forth as a direct rejection to the ideologies within the Catholic Church.
I also appreciate the information provided, but I'm Protestant, so this news in the OP doesn't apply to me.

*1. Why do I have to confess my sins to a priest?*
That’s the way Jesus set it up on Easter Sunday evening. He told his apostles that just as God the Father had sent him — and God the Father sent him to save us from our sins — so he was sending them.

He breathed on them the power of the Holy Spirit, giving them God’s power to forgive sins, since no one can forgive sins but God alone. He told them that whatever sins they forgive are forgiven and whatever sins they retain are retained (Jn 20:21-23; Mk 2:7).

Since the apostles were unable to read minds, the only way that they would know which to forgive and which to retain is if people told them their sins. Jesus thus established the essential structure of the sacrament of confession. Just as he uses priests to give us his Body and Blood at Mass so he uses them to give us His mercy in Penance.

*33. Can my sins be forgiven outside of the Sacrament of Penance?*
God, who created the sacraments for our salvation, is Himself not bound by them. Our sins are first forgiven, of course, through the sacrament of baptism.

For post-baptismal sins, the Church has always taught that, for example in a danger of death situation without the possibility of recourse to the sacrament of confession, God could forgive our sins if we pray to him with perfect contrition. The reality is, however, that we can never know if we’ve made a perfect act of contrition.

The Church teaches, therefore, that “individual, integral confession and absolution remain the only ordinary way for the faithful to reconcile themselves with God and the Church, unless physical or moral impossibility excuses from this kind of confession” (_CCC 1484_).

The great gift of this sacrament is that, if we confess all our serious sins with sorrow and a firm purpose of amendment, we do not need to doubt whether our sins have been forgiven.

God created this sacrament so that we might know he has forgiven us through the ministry of priests.


----------



## jerseyhaircare

I'm just curious about how it affects the Catholic Church's stance on abortion. Did it go from abomination to a forgivable sin? Or was it always forgivable?


----------



## kanozas

jerseyhaircare said:


> I'm just curious about how it affects the Catholic Church's stance on abortion. Did it go from abomination to a forgivable sin? Or was it always forgivable?




Always forgivable.


----------



## Femmefatal1981

jerseyhaircare said:


> I'm just curious about how it affects the Catholic Church's stance on abortion. Did it go from abomination to a forgivable sin? Or was it always forgivable?


It doesn't change anything from what I can tell. I'll ask my aunts this week what they have been told about this pronouncement


----------



## kanozas

cutiepiebabygirl said:


> @kanozas  I updated my post about the patron saints. I was in a hurry and rushed that. Thanks for the correction.
> 
> I stand by my statement otherwise, there are several differences between the two, but Protestantism came forth as a direct rejection to the ideologies within the Catholic Church.
> I also appreciate the information provided, but I'm Protestant, so this news in the OP doesn't apply to me.
> 
> *1. Why do I have to confess my sins to a priest?*
> That’s the way Jesus set it up on Easter Sunday evening. He told his apostles that just as God the Father had sent him — and God the Father sent him to save us from our sins — so he was sending them.
> 
> He breathed on them the power of the Holy Spirit, giving them God’s power to forgive sins, since no one can forgive sins but God alone. He told them that whatever sins they forgive are forgiven and whatever sins they retain are retained (Jn 20:21-23; Mk 2:7).
> 
> Since the apostles were unable to read minds, the only way that they would know which to forgive and which to retain is if people told them their sins. Jesus thus established the essential structure of the sacrament of confession. Just as he uses priests to give us his Body and Blood at Mass so he uses them to give us His mercy in Penance.
> 
> *33. Can my sins be forgiven outside of the Sacrament of Penance?*
> God, who created the sacraments for our salvation, is Himself not bound by them. *Our sins are first forgiven, of course, through the sacrament of baptism.*
> 
> *For post-baptismal sins, the Church has always taught that, for example in a danger of death situation without the possibility of recourse to the sacrament of confession, God could forgive our sins if we pray to him with perfect contrition. The reality is, however, that we can never know if we’ve made a perfect act of contrition.*
> 
> The Church teaches, therefore, that “individual, integral confession and absolution remain the only ordinary way for the faithful to reconcile themselves with God and the Church, unless physical or moral impossibility excuses from this kind of confession” (_CCC 1484_).
> 
> The great gift of this sacrament is that, if we confess all our serious sins with sorrow and a firm purpose of amendment, we do not need to doubt whether our sins have been forgiven.
> 
> God created this sacrament so that we might know he has forgiven us through the ministry of priests.




You have a fundamental lack of understanding.  It's not saying that you cannot confess to G-d, it's saying that we go through the priesthood as given by Christ.  First step is penitence (between you and G-d).  There is a difference between mortal sins (requiring reconciliation/confession) and venial sins, which do not require going to the confessional.  It's telling you that our sins are forgiven first through baptism and after baptism, through reconciliation.  We are to go to reconciliation at least once yearly.  If you didn't sin, particularly moral sins, well, I guess you don't need to confess anything.

It's funny to me how people pick parts that seem to explain everything but don't and as they are not Catholic, don't fully comprehend what is contained within it.  You made a statement that we cannot go to G-d by ourselves by our beliefs.  Still, incorrect.  If you committed a mortal sin, then you follow the apostolic tradition given directly by Christ to confess to your priest.  It's really not that difficult.  We do pray to G-d, we do ask for forgiveness at home or where ever, we do have a personal relationship to Christ.   The last red highlighted says that, yes, G-d can forgive our sins but we might know whether or not we made a full act of contrition (repentance).  Lastly, please always cite your sources:

http://www.thelightisonforyou.org/confession/faq/

Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Boston

CCC refers to the Catechism of the Catholic Church as in the citation of the website (CCC 1484).  The whole document is online, all 803 pages of it.

Well, last-lastly, if protestants protested this, then they went against the very Christ who instituted it.  Shrugs.  It's in the "Old" Testament (I prefer to say, First Covenant) and He didn't come to abolish the law.  Maybe the others abolish the law but it's not us?  I dunno.  It is a thought.  Whichever the case, you are not bound to this as you are not Catholic, as you mentioned.  The article didn't indicate anything for non-Catholics either.  I don't know why our faith bothers other people.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  It would definitely be nice to provide factual and complete information.  You know, the bible talks about slaves obeying their master,  marrying your rape victim and obliterating your Canaanite enemies.  Explain that one lol.  To outsiders who aren't knowledgeable, it looks like G-d isn't so nice.  Your opinion is valid as your opinion but it is not fact for what we believe, practice and teach.


----------



## cutiepiebabygirl

K. 



kanozas said:


> You have a fundamental lack of understanding.  It's not saying that you cannot confess to G-d, it's saying that we go through the priesthood as given by Christ.  First step is penitence (between you and G-d).  There is a difference between mortal sins (requiring reconciliation/confession) and venial sins, which do not require going to the confessional.  It's telling you that our sins are forgiven first through baptism and after baptism, through reconciliation.  We are to go to reconciliation at least once yearly.  If you didn't sin, particularly moral sins, well, I guess you don't need to confess anything.
> 
> It's funny to me how people pick parts that seem to explain everything but don't and as they are not Catholic, don't fully comprehend what is contained within it.  You made a statement that we cannot go to G-d by ourselves by our beliefs.  Still, incorrect.  If you committed a mortal sin, then you follow the apostolic tradition given directly by Christ to confess to your priest.  It's really not that difficult.  We do pray to G-d, we do ask for forgiveness at home or where ever, we do have a personal relationship to Christ.   The last red highlighted says that, yes, G-d can forgive our sins but we might know whether or not we made a full act of contrition (repentance).  Lastly, please always cite your sources:
> 
> http://www.thelightisonforyou.org/confession/faq/
> 
> Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Boston
> 
> CCC refers to the Catechism of the Catholic Church as in the citation of the website (CCC 1484).  The whole document is online, all 803 pages of it.
> 
> Well, last-lastly, if protestants protested this, then they went against the very Christ who instituted it.  Shrugs.  It's in the "Old" Testament (I prefer to say, First Covenant) and He didn't come to abolish the law.  Maybe the others abolish the law but it's not us?  I dunno.  It is a thought.  Whichever the case, you are not bound to this as you are not Catholic, as you mentioned.  The article didn't indicate anything for non-Catholics either.  I don't know why our faith bothers other people.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  It would definitely be nice to provide factual and complete information.  You know, the bible talks about slaves obeying their master,  marrying your rape victim and obliterating your Canaanite enemies.  Explain that one lol.  To outsiders who aren't knowledgeable, it looks like G-d isn't so nice.  Your opinion is valid as your opinion but it is not fact for what we believe, practice and teach.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Jesus breathed on the apostles and gave them the ability to forgive or retain sins. We believe Our Lord instituted all the Sacraments for a reason. Nothing Our Lord said was random or idle.  

And you have to remember that historically, Christians were essentially unified on these major topics for 1500 years until the reformation.  What I always say is for me it makes sense to go with the earliest interpretation of scripture because we see how easy it is for scripture to be manipulated.


----------



## IronButterfly

qchelle said:


> religious people are so weird


That's an understatement.


----------



## beingofserenity

Belle Du Jour said:


> Jesus breathed on the apostles and gave them the ability to forgive or retain sins. We believe Our Lord instituted all the Sacraments for a reason. Nothing Our Lord said was random or idle.
> 
> And you have to remember that historically, Christians were essentially unified on these major topics for 1500 years until the reformation.  What I always say is for me it makes sense to go with the earliest interpretation of scripture because we see how easy it is for scripture to be manipulated.



True they were unified, but is that possibly because most were not given access to the Bible? To read for themselves.


----------



## Honey Bee

Belle Du Jour said:


> And you have to remember that historically, Christians were essentially unified on these major topics for 1500 years until the reformation.  What I always say is for me it makes sense to go with the earliest interpretation of scripture because we see how easy it is for scripture to be manipulated.


One of the reasons I like Catholicism is cuz everything is all worked out already and written down some where, like hadiths for Islam or whatever. Somebody already thought about it, debated it with other people, and decided, _centuries_ ago. Makes it very easy to understand follow properly. I find Protestantism to be a... schismatic mess. Too many cooks spoil the stew.


----------



## FelaShrine

^what did they come up with regarding the 2nd commandment and how their churches are set up/decorated?


----------



## aquajoyice

Chile please.


----------



## LovelyGirl

qchelle said:


> religious people are so weird


It made me laugh too!  Now abortion is OK for forgiveness.  People are going to do what they feel is best for them on issues like this one.  People have abortions for many reasons.


----------



## jerseyhaircare

I just wonder if this is to increase membership or is it really a leaf to their female members. Like, they can't be priests, but at least they are allowing women a bit more optons in regards to their body. Or maybe it really is just empty words.


----------



## sharifeh

Catholics get a lot of hate man, one side of my family is catholic the other side is Muslim, jeez both of these religions get a lot of shade and there seems to be a ton of misinformation

The shade I heard towards Catholics from Protestants growing up was so deep, I’m not even catholic and I think people are extra with it


----------



## Honey Bee

sharifeh said:


> Catholics get a lot of hate man, *one side of my family is catholic the other side is Muslim*, jeez both of these religions get a lot of shade and there seems to be a ton of misinformation
> 
> The shade I heard towards Catholics from Protestants growing up was so deep, I’m not even catholic and I think people are extra with it


Mine's half Muslim (NOI--> Sunni), half AME Zion. Both sides are devout, pastors and strong church folks on one side, hijabis and such on the other. One of my god mothers, RIP Aunt Joanie, was a black Jew, born in the religion, not a convert (she used to cook for Sammie Davis Jr when he was here). And then I went to Catholic school... and then Episcopalian. I like to think I know just enough about everybody.


----------



## kanozas

Honey Bee said:


> One of the reasons I like Catholicism is cuz *everything is all worked out already and written down some where, like hadiths for Islam or whatever. Somebody already thought about it, debated it with other people, and decided, centuries ago. Makes it very easy to understand follow properly.* I find Protestantism to be a... schismatic mess. Too many cooks spoil the stew.




  Precisely why I'm here.  Nobody forced, coerced, shamed, spewed fire and brimstone while omitting the California redwood in their own eye.  I even debate and call into question practices that were unholy (slavery and other nonsense) that the Church overlooked/allowed before it finally moved, from it's fault, omission etc. and nobody bats and eye.  We are to use our intellect as G-d's gift and we can question things.  As you said, much of it has already been worked out.  It's a living, breathing church, so is the completed bible and like the Torah from which it all comes, it was meant to be permeable with the times.  I know someone is going to get bent out of shape with that and start calling jezebel spirit and other such nonsense.  But it's how I see it.  We don't know everything but the things we do know, we know them and it's written.  You don't have to guess on those.


----------



## kanozas

Graven images are worshiped.  That's what is forbidden.  We don't worship images.  Veneration is not worship. 


Jesus was quite visible yet, G-d.  The cross was an image. The menorah is an image and symbolic.   The fish that initially and secretly represented Christians was an image.  Moses was told to make a symbol of healing with the bronze snake on it.  People looked at it (that medical symbol we use today) and were cured of snake bite.  Several places in the "Old" Testament were commands G-d gave to make an image.  The gold cherubim of the Ark?  Our Lady of Guadalupe  is her actual image, life-size.  Came from heaven.  Jesus' shroud is here and in it, we now can see the moment of his resurrection in the positioning of his feet, according to independent scientific examinations.  He was in movement.  Shroud was found bundled up but the body missing.  Like an unopened box of Cheezits, plastic pack intact and unopened.  Witnessed.  His full image, frontal and posterior are on it.  Veronica wiped Jesus' bloody and sweaty face with a cloth and the image was formed on it.  Countless images and visible events still occur.  Shrugs.  I examined all these things and more about the RCC before I entered it, over a decade of study and investigation.  I finally made the choice.  Point being...I studied it and came to a conclusion that I found it to be true.  Nothing strange about the process nor study, investigation.  Anyone who comes into any religion ill-prepared is in trouble.


----------



## Lady S

I'm probably way too protestant to appreciate the ramifications of this, but this Pope seems to be more empathetic and more focused on mercy.  Characteristics I think all religious leaders should have.


----------



## kanozas




----------



## ang3lface816

beingofserenity said:


> True they were unified, but is that possibly because most were not given access to the Bible? To read for themselves.


Right. Not to be disrespectful at all. But people either had to go along with the Catholic Church or be killed for entertainment.  I don't think it's in good taste to say all were in agreement. The scriptures were withheld and dissidents were persecuted. That's what created the reformation.


----------



## SimplyLive

I never understood why the Catholic church is so obsessed over abortions.


----------



## ang3lface816

sharifeh said:


> Catholics get a lot of hate man, one side of my family is catholic the other side is Muslim, jeez both of these religions get a lot of shade and there seems to be a ton of misinformation
> 
> The shade I heard towards Catholics from Protestants growing up was so deep, I’m not even catholic and I think people are extra with it



I'm protestant. But honestly I understand the shade or whatever.  A church can't just kill hundreds of millions of people for their beliefs.  I don't like or trust this pope, he's basically trying to reestablish Catholic supremacy, hence the official declarations (a few weeks ago) that that reformation is officially over and trying to grandfather everyone else into the Catholic Church. He's about to set up a global religion, except it won't be technically religious since certain things are being given more leeway and acceptance. Read Laudato Si (his encyclical published in May 2015). He literally says that we have to observe Sunday (part of his systems beliefs )to prevent climate change.  I feel like that's deceptive to try and indoctrinate based on "What's good for the world " etc. 

People are not even ready for or read to comprehend what's about to happen.


----------



## ChasingBliss

Ugh, we dont do this and we shouldnt do that, and so and so says we should do things this way and this book says we should do things that way. Good grief. I cant with any type of religion.


----------



## Autumn~Tint~Of~Gold

In Islam abortion is permissible prior to 4 months gestation if there is a valid reason for it.
_
Seyed al-Sabiq, author of Fiqh al-Sunnah, has summarized the views of the classical jurists in this regard in the following words:

Abortion is not allowed after four months have passed since conception because at that time it is akin to taking a life, an act that entails penalty in this world and in the Hereafter. As regards the matter of abortion before this period elapses, it is considered allowed if necessary. However, in the absence of a reasonable excuse it is detestable. The author of ‘Subul-ul-Maram’ writes: "A woman’s treatment for aborting a pregnancy before the spirit has been blown into it is a matter upon which scholars differed on account of difference of opinion on the matter of ‘Azal (i.e. measures to hinder conception). Those who allow ‘Azal consider abortion as allowable and vice versa." The same ruling should be applicable for women deciding on sterilization. Imam Ghazzali opines: "Induced abortion is a sin after conception". He further says: "The sin incurred thus can be of degrees. When the sperm enters the ovaries, mixes with the ovum and acquires potential of life, its removal would be a sin. Aborting it after it grows into a germ or a leech would be a graver sin and the graveness of the sin increases very much if one does so after the stage when the spirit is blown into the fetus and it acquires human form and faculties."[5]_


----------



## Mingus

ang3lface816 said:


> I'm protestant. But honestly I understand the shade or whatever.  A church can't just kill hundreds of millions of people for their beliefs.  I don't like or trust this pope, he's basically trying to reestablish Catholic supremacy, hence the *official declarations (a few weeks ago) that that reformation is officially over and trying to grandfather everyone else into the Catholic Church*. He's about to set up a global religion, except it won't be technically religious since certain things are being given more leeway and acceptance. Read Laudato Si (his encyclical published in May 2015). He literally says that we have to observe Sunday (part of his systems beliefs )to prevent climate change.  I feel like that's deceptive to try and indoctrinate based on "What's good for the world " etc.
> 
> People are not even ready for or read to comprehend what's about to happen.


Uh...what now?  I'm Protestant too. So as a general rule I tend to not pay too much attention to what goes on with the Catholic Church. I haven't even read most of the responses in this thread. I do me, and I let them do them. But...





What exactly do he THINK 'bout to happen?


----------



## Kimbosheart

ang3lface816 said:


> Right. Not to be disrespectful at all. But people either had to go along with the Catholic Church or be killed for entertainment.  I don't think it's in good taste to say all were in agreement. The scriptures were withheld and dissidents were persecuted. That's what created the reformation.



And Protestants don't have their own dirt?  The Catholic Church may have turned their head but Protestants are responsible for the genocide of indigenous peoples on this continent and those same Protestant hands are doubly bloody through the transatlantic slave trade. 

To be fair, religion throughout the ages has been used directly to do terrible things to people in the name of power and divine providence. Also evil people don't tend to discriminate on religion. They have pyschos throughout history that considered themselves Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, etc.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

ang3lface816 said:


> I'm protestant. But honestly I understand the shade or whatever.  A church can't just kill hundreds of millions of people for their beliefs.  I don't like or trust this pope, he's basically trying to reestablish Catholic supremacy, hence the official declarations (a few weeks ago) that that reformation is officially over and trying to grandfather everyone else into the Catholic Church. He's about to set up a global religion, except it won't be technically religious since certain things are being given more leeway and acceptance. Read Laudato Si (his encyclical published in May 2015). He literally says that we have to observe Sunday (part of his systems beliefs )to prevent climate change.  I feel like that's deceptive to try and indoctrinate based on "What's good for the world " etc.
> 
> People are not even ready for or read to comprehend what's about to happen.



Are you SDA? 

The pope is not the antichrist. 

The Catholic Church is not the whore of Babylon. 

Since Protestants are still very much protesting the Church that was established by Christ, it is very unlikely that a NWO global religion will ever be established.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Mingus said:


> Uh...what now?  I'm Protestant too. So as a general rule I tend to not pay too much attention to what goes on with the Catholic Church. I haven't even read most of the responses in this thread. I do me, and I let them do them. But...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What exactly do he THINK 'bout to happen?



None of this foolishness is going to happen. This is standard SDA propaganda/ fear-mongering against the RCC.  *shugs*


----------



## beingofserenity

I'm not convinced Christ established any church..


----------



## HappilyLiberal

OK...  Roman Catholic chiming in here...

Abortion is considered one of those sins that results in automatic excommunication from the Church.  In order to be restored to full communion after an excommunication, it normally takes the actions of a Bishop.  What Pope Francis is essentially doing is giving Priests (one step lower than Bishops on the totem pole) the power to restore those who have gotten an abortion to full communion with the Church through a much less laborious process.

Also, @ang3lface816 I doubt seriously Pope Francis is concerning himself with trying to lasso in other Christian sects at the moment.  He has his hands full attempting the herd the cats that fall under the Catholic communion!


----------



## ang3lface816

Mingus said:


> Uh...what now?  I'm Protestant too. So as a general rule I tend to not pay too much attention to what goes on with the Catholic Church. I haven't even read most of the responses in this thread. I do me, and I let them do them. But...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What exactly do he THINK 'bout to happen?



I'll post links...

Laudato Si and encouraging Sunday as the day of rest (though the 4th commandment in Exodus 20:8 says 7th day)https://catholicecology.net/blog/laudato-si-day-praise-which-heals-our-relationships

Washington Post, agrees pope's view of climate change influential

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wa...4_story.html?client=ms-android-hms-tmobile-us

Whole website from the European Sunday Alliance showing the push for Sunday
http://www.europeansundayalliance.eu/site/stories?SWS=940331d4c8cc35985d66482529dfe0df

Pope Francis and his push for "work free Sundays"
https://www.google.com/amp/s/utopia...e-sunday/amp/client=ms-android-hms-tmobile-us

Green sabbath and how everyone observing one day (which has been decided as Sunday if we go off articles published)  (interesting term seeing that Pope Francis juxtaposes this with the Saturday Sabbath but says let's do it on Sunday )
http://climatecolab.org/plans/-/pla...ior-for-a-changing-climate/c/proposal/1328902


Feel free to do your own search.  Not making this up.


----------



## ang3lface816

Kimbosheart said:


> And Protestants don't have their own dirt?  The Catholic Church may have turned their head but Protestants are responsible for the genocide of indigenous peoples on this continent and those same Protestant hands are doubly bloody through the transatlantic slave trade.
> 
> To be fair, religion throughout the ages has been used directly to do terrible things to people in the name of power and divine providence. Also evil people don't tend to discriminate on religion. They have pyschos throughout history that considered themselves Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, etc.



I think most religions have dirt.  But the troubling part for me is that dirt is continuing to be excused. For example, priests are now by law not mandated reporters of child sexual abuse.... within the last month it became official. 

Here's the article from Catholic news source:


https://cruxnow.com/church/2016/02/...report-abuse-revealed-in-confession/?infscr=1


----------



## ang3lface816

Belle Du Jour said:


> None of this foolishness is going to happen. This is standard SDA propaganda/ fear-mongering against the RCC.  *shugs*



Please check out the articles I posted today. It's definitely going to happen.  The pope actually says that a day of rest, which he intends to be Sunday will help us divert climate change crisis. No fear mongering.


----------



## Enyo

ang3lface816 said:


> I think most religions have dirt.  But the troubling part for me is that dirt is continuing to be excused. For example, priests are now by law not mandated reporters of child secularism abuse.... within the last month.
> 
> Here's the article from Catholic news source:
> 
> 
> https://cruxnow.com/church/2016/02/...report-abuse-revealed-in-confession/?infscr=1



The link didn't work for me, so maybe this one? https://cruxnow.com/church-in-the-u...s-not-required-violate-sanctity-confessional/

Religion in general is given way more respect than it's due, and many times it's at the expense of the innocent. As someone who works with sexually abused children, things like this nauseate me. I can't imagine someone knowing that a child is being treated that way and nothing being done because, you know, Jesus. Same thing with kids who disallowed medical care because their parents don't believe in it. A few kids have died that way, but once again, you know, Jesus.

ETA: But the Catholic Church covered up decades of priests raping and molesting children, so no one should be surprised they favor their dogma over the well-being of children.


----------



## ang3lface816

HappilyLiberal said:


> OK...  Roman Catholic chiming in here...
> 
> Abortion is considered one of those sins that results in automatic excommunication from the Church.  In order to be restored to full communion after an excommunication, it normally takes the actions of a Bishop.  What Pope Francis is essentially doing is giving Priests (one step lower than Bishops on the totem pole) the power to restore those who have gotten an abortion to full communion with the Church through a much less laborious process.
> 
> Also, @ang3lface816 I doubt seriously Pope Francis is concerning himself with trying to lasso in other Christian sects at the moment.  He has his hands full attempting the herd the cats that fall under the Catholic communion!


Thank you for this info! 
I disagree on the lassoing in of the others. This is something other religions have spoken of as well as encouraged. Late Bishop Tony Palmer spoke about this several times.  What's being said is that the Protestant churches need to join the Catholic  Church  (which I feel is a big reason for declaring the reformation over). It's hard to declare it over unless you can say other faiths no longer hold the views that created the reformation. 

I do want to state, I am not attacking any of you ladies beliefs. We can all respectfully disagree as well as share those beliefs, that's what I love most about this forum.


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## Mingus

ang3lface816 said:


> I'll post links...
> 
> Laudato Si and encouraging Sunday as the day of rest (though the 4th commandment in Exodus 20:8 says 7th day)https://catholicecology.net/blog/laudato-si-day-praise-which-heals-our-relationships
> 
> Washington Post, agrees pope's view of climate change influential
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wa...4_story.html?client=ms-android-hms-tmobile-us
> 
> Whole website from the European Sunday Alliance showing the push for Sunday
> http://www.europeansundayalliance.eu/site/stories?SWS=940331d4c8cc35985d66482529dfe0df
> 
> Pope Francis and his push for "work free Sundays"
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/utopia...e-sunday/amp/client=ms-android-hms-tmobile-us
> 
> Green sabbath and how everyone observing one day (which has been decided as Sunday if we go off articles published)  (interesting term seeing that Pope Francis juxtaposes this with the Saturday Sabbath but says let's do it on Sunday )
> http://climatecolab.org/plans/-/pla...ior-for-a-changing-climate/c/proposal/1328902
> 
> 
> Feel free to do your own search.  Not making this up.


@ang3lface816, I appreciate you providing these links for me. I've skimmed through them but haven't seen any official declaration of the reformation being over or everyone being grandfathered into the Catholic church as you stated in your previous post. For me as a Protestant Christian, the most important part of the reformation is that I have the right to directly approach God the Father due to the sacrifice made by Jesus Christ when he died on the cross and rose again - no priests or hail Marys necessary. I didn't see any language like that in what I read. What I saw was mostly just a push for the business and civic world to let up so that people can actually rest on the Sabbath. I'm not sure if you ever confirmed that you are SDA, but if you are, I can see how that might seem intrusive to you and that perhaps the Catholic church is overstepping its bounds. However, I'm not SDA and have always recognized Sunday as the Sabbath. Of late, that's changed for me, as I'm more inclined to agree with the Jewish calendar with the Sabbath beginning at sundown Friday and ending sundown on Saturday, but that's neither here nor there for me as far as the Catholic church pushing for an actual world wide day of rest. I personally think it would be good for people, but then I'm not really a legalist. So regardless of my own leanings about the Sabbath, I'm not likely to get up in arms about which day anyone else chooses to recognize, and I feel that I'm free to recognize whichever day I'm inspired to recognize. I don't really feel threatened by this at all unless someone is going to threaten to throw me in jail over recognizing one day over the other.

As far as any other influence the Catholic church may have on me as a Protestant via the Pope's world wide influence, well...that's not really new. We have this little holiday coming up that we're all celebrating, even though it's been widely speculated that December 25th was not actually Jesus' birthday. The Catholic church decided to co-opt the pagan winter solstice, and now every year we have decorated trees and fruit cake. I'm perfectly content to ho, ho, ho it up with the rest of the crowd even though it doesn't mean that much to my own personal sense of religion. Again, I'm not a legalist. So, I don't think that celebrating or not celebrating December 25th as the day Jesus was born has any real bearing on my faith in Christ, not unlike whichever day I choose to partake in the Sabbath.

So, while I appreciate your perspective and sense of urgency with regard to the influence of the Pope and his church, none of what I've read above rises to the level of sending up red flags for me personally.


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## kanozas

An excellent and extensive source of Church history from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03158a.htm

Almost anything you wanna know, it's in there.

And if there's unity, it's going to be official, with no barriers from either side and full participation and consent.  You can't be a catholic is you're not already one and/or not convert.  Simple.


----------



## ang3lface816

kanozas said:


> An excellent and extensive source of Church history from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
> 
> http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03158a.htm
> 
> Almost anything you wanna know, it's in there.
> 
> And if there's unity, it's going to be official, with no barriers from either side and full participation and consent.  You can't be a catholic is you're not already one and/or not convert.  Simple.



Would partaking in practices of the Catholic Church like Eucharist, the Sacraments,  certain types of prayer be considered taking part in RCC religion? I agree that Protestants wouldn't  be official Catholics but  he is very instrumental in pushing what would be technically a global religion. Green sabbaths? With slight religious undertones. Check out the ecumenical movement, if you get a chance.  It shows all the religions also uniting in purpose to serve out the pope's message.  To see things that were written about and seemed a bit farfetched to even my SDA self, coming to pass, it's strengthened my confidence in what the Bible says.

The pope has been meeting with the ceos of various social media platforms and they have expressed a dedication to "spreading his message ". Recently the US gave away rights to the Internet. He's basically connecting with every platform.

@Mingus thank you for reading! There's much more. The climate change agreement has things that would really affect our day to day life. I am sda but I say that loosely. I've recently been restudying. I've also come across articles where it's been discussed that dissenters should be fined, and jailed (though this is not an official declaration). Since the agreement is international,  going against the legislation would deem you a terrorist. It's tying up very nicely into a one world system. Trump is electing people that will gladly make this a Fascist type of government with no qualms. But also a very strong candidate in the eyes of the evangelists/christian base. I think his name is.... (Kenneth Copeland) recently did an article saying he has a direct means of communication to Trump. Says he could deliver a message from God to Trump and he feels that Trump would listen. I don't know if he will play a role but it's interesting. 

I'll be going to bed soon but just wanted to throw additional information out there if you're interested.

 I also observe Friday sundown to Saturday sundown as Sabbath (according to the scripture that says "from evening to evening...." 
I've been getting away from the holidays though that's not a formal doctrine for us. Just seeing the history of various days, I'm not really feeling them anymore.  

I post these not to bash anyone's specific beliefs, but I do believe we are definitely in a serious time.


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## Mingus

ang3lface816 said:


> *I do believe we are definitely in a serious time.*


I think most of us can agree with this point regardless of the extent to which we see the Catholic church's involvement.


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## kanozas

On Netflix:  "Mary's Land"   The role of Our Lady in salvation.  Excellent film.

http://www.maryslandmovie.org/

Trailer and synopsis:


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## kanozas

In this political dark cloud, it's obvious that Mexicans (and all Latinos and minorities period) are under suspicion, even persecuted by fellow minority groups.  Nobody thinks a refugee has human rights if they are Mexicans or Central Americans.  But you know what?  G-d loves Mexico and its people.  G-d loves all people.  We should follow that and respect everyone's humanity.  Here are two proofs of the love G-d has for Mexico and has used her for the blessing of the world through converted hearts:

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/that-time-jesus-appeared-in-the-sky-of-mexico-90663/
*That time Jesus appeared in the sky of Mexico*






A painting of El SeñorDe La Misericordia De Ocotlán from 1912. Credit: Shrine of the Lord of Mercy in Ocotlán, state of Jalisco, Mexico via Facebook.

Lima, Peru, Oct 12, 2016 / 06:15 am (CNA/EWTN News).- It's a major miracle that you've probably never heard of.

On Sunday, Oct. 3, 1847, more than 2,000 people in Ocotlán, Mexico saw a perfect image of Jesus Christ crucified that appeared in the sky for more than 30 minutes.

Approved by the Archdiocese of Guadalajara in 1911, the phenomenon is known as the “Miracle of Ocotlán” and took place one day before an earthquake that killed 40 and left the town in Jalisco State in ruins.

Before the start of Mass at the cemetery of the Chapel of the Immaculate Conception – presided over by the parochial vicar, Father Julián Navarro – two white clouds joined together in the northwest sky, where there appeared the image of Christ.

Those present and in nearby towns were deeply moved, made acts of contrition, and cried out begging, “Lord, have mercy!” This apparition of Christ was called “the Lord of Mercy” and in his honor, in September 1875, a new parish church was blessed, consecrated and dedicated to him.

Also among the faithful who witnessed the miracle were Father Julián Martín del Campo, pastor of the community, and  Antonio Jiménez, the town's mayor. Both of them sent letters to their respective superiors telling what had happened.

After the miracle, a record of the event was written down with 30 eye-witnesses attesting. Fifty years later, in 1897, by order of the then-Archbishop of Guadalajara, Pedro Loza y Pardavé, another record of the event was made, with 30 additional persons including five priests.

On Sept. 29, 1911, the Archbishop of Guadalajara at that time, José de Jesús Ortiz y Rodríguez, signed a document validating the apparition of Jesus Christ at Ocotlán, and the devotion and veneration given by the people of that area to the venerated statue of our Lord of Mercy located in the shrine of the same name.

“We must acknowledge as an historical fact, perfectly proven, the apparition of the blessed image of Jesus Christ Crucified…and that it could not have been the work of an hallucination or fraud, since it happened in broad daylight, in the sight of more than 2,000 people,” the cardinal said.

He also stated so that the Lord of Mercy would never be forgotten, the faithful must “gather together in whatever manner possible, after purifying their consciences with the holy sacraments of Penance and
Holy Communion and solemnly swear in the presence of God, for themselves and their descendants, that year after year they will celebrate the October 3 anniversary.”

After its approval and to comply with the provisions of the Archbishop of Guadalajara, in 1912 they began public festivities in honor of the Lord of Mercy, recalling the Miracle of 1847. The celebrations currently last 13 days, from Sept. 20 to Oct. 3.

Later, in 1997, Saint John Paul II sent his Apostolic Blessing to the people of Ocotlán on the occasion of the 150th anniversary of the miracle.


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## kanozas

(Actual image on the original cloak of Juan Diego in 1531 and displayed in the Basilica de Santa Maria de Guadalupe)





http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=73

Saint Juan Diego was born in 1474 as Cuauhtlatoatzin, a native to Mexico. He became the first Roman Catholic indigenous saint from the Americas.

Following the early death of his father, Juan Diego was taken to live with his uncle. From the age of three, he was raised in line with the Aztec pagan religion, but always showed signs of having a mystical sense of life.

He was recognized for his religious fervor, his respectful and gracious attitude toward the Virgin Mary and his Bishop Juan de Zumarraga, and his undying love for his ill uncle.

When a group of 12 Franciscan missionaries arrived in Mexico in 1524, he and his wife, Maria Lucia, converted to Catholicism and were among the first to be baptized in the region. Juan Diego was very committed to his new life and would walk long distances to receive religious instruction at the Franciscan mission station at Tlatelolco.

On December 9, 1531, Juan Diego was in a hurry to make it to Mass and celebrate the Feast of the Immaculate Conception. However, he was stopped by the beautiful sight of a radiant woman who introduced herself, in his native tongue, as the "ever-perfect holy Mary, who has the honor to be the mother of the true God."

Mary told Juan Diego she was the mother of all those who lived in his land and asked him to make a request to the local bishop. She wanted them to build a chapel in her honor there on Tepeyac Hill, which was the site of a former pagan temple.

When Juan Diego approached Bishop Juan de Zumarraga telling of what happened, he was presented with doubts and was told to give the Bishop time to reflect on the news.

Later, the same day, Juan Diego encountered the Virgin Mary a second time and told her he failed in granting her request. He tried to explain to her he was not an important person, and therefore not the one for the task, but she instead he was the man she wanted.

Juan Diego returned to the Bishop the next day and repeated his request, but now the Bishop asked for proof or a sign the apparition was real and truly of heaven.

Juan Diego went straight to Tepeyac and, once again, encountered the Virgin Mary. After explaining to her what the Bishop asked, she agreed and told him she'd provide him with proof on the next day, December 11.

However, on the next day, Juan Diego's uncle became very sick and he was obligated to stay and care for him. Juan Diego set out the next to find a priest for his uncle. He was determined to get there quickly and didn't want to face the Virgin Mary with shame for missing the previous day's meeting.

But the Virgin Mary intercepted him and asked what was wrong. He explained his situation and promised to return after he found his uncle a priest.

She looked at him and asked "No estoy yo aqui que soy tu madre?" (Am I not here, I who am your mother?) She promised him his uncle would be cured and asked him to climb to the hill and collect the flowers growing there. He obeyed and found many flowers blooming in December on the rocky land. He filled his tilma (cloak) with flowers and returned to Mary.

The Virgin Mary arranged the flowers within his cloak and told him this would be the sign he is to present to the bishop. Once Juan Diego found the bishop, he opened his cloak and the bishop was presented with a miraculous imprinted image of the Virgin Mary on the flower-filled cloak.

The next day, Juan Diego found his uncle fully healed from his illness. His uncle explained he, too, saw the Virgin Mary. She also instructed him on her desires to have a church built on Tepeyac Hill, but she also told him she wanted to be known with the title of Guadalupe.

News of Juan Diego's miracle quickly spread, and he became very well-known. However, Juan Diego always remained a humble man.

The bishop first kept Juan Diego's imprinted cloak in his private chapel, but then placed it on public display in the church built on Tepeyac Hill the next year.

The first miracle surrounding the cloak occurred during the procession to Tepeyac Hill when a participant was shot in the throat by an arrow shot in celebration. After being placed in front of the miraculous image of Mary, the man was healed.

Juan Diego moved into a little hermitage on Tepeyac Hill, and lived a solidarity life of prayer and work. He remained there until his death on December 9, 1548, 17 years after the first apparition.

News of Our Lady's apparitions caused a wave of nearly 3,000 Indians a day to convert to the Christian faith. Details of Juan Diego's experience and Mary's words moved them deeply.

During the revolutions in Mexico, at the beginning of the 20th century, nonbelievers attempted to destroy the Image with an explosion. The altar?s marble steps, the flower-holders, and the basilica windows were all very damaged, but the pane of glass protecting the Image was not even cracked.

Juan Diego's imprinted cloak has remained perfectly preserved from 1531 to present time. The "Basilica of Guadalupe" on Tepeyac Hill has become one of the world's most-visited Catholic shrines.

St. Juan Diego was beatified on May 6, 1990 by Pope John Paul II and canonized on July 31, 2002. His feast day is celebrated on December 9 and he is the patron saint of Indigenous people.

(Disclaimer:  I tried to find the least "offensive" retelling of this saint's story but they still refer to the Aztec's as "pagans."  No, I don't agree with calling them that, esp. considering how even catholics enslaved and abused people but then called others "ungodly," much like White American history where protestants enslaved and abused people in the U.S.  The story itself is important but as humans, it's difficult to remove personal oversights and prejudices.  In other words, I know the full story.  Christ is true, man is not.)


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## kanozas

Funny the Sabbath comes up.  We still honor it, on Our L-rd's day..the day he arose from the dead.  Several months in the making, I was going to post on this.  Guess this is the time.  We catholics are also held to the L-rd's day, to rest on it.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/sabbath-or-sunday

*Sabbath or Sunday?*

Some religious organizations (Seventh-day Adventists, Seventh-Day Baptists, and certain others) claim that Christians must not worship on Sunday but on Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath. They claim that, at some unnamed time after the apostolic age, the Church "changed" the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday. 

However, passages of Scripture such as Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10 indicate that, even during New Testament times, the Sabbath is no longer binding and that Christians are to worship on the Lord’s day, Sunday, instead. 

The early Church Fathers compared the observance of the Sabbath to the observance of the rite of circumcision, and from that they demonstrated that if the apostles abolished circumcision (Gal. 5:1-6), so also the observance of the Sabbath must have been abolished. The following quotations show that the first Christians understood this principle and gathered for worship on Sunday. 



The Didache


"But every Lord’s day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned" (_Didache_ 14 [A.D. 70]). 



The Letter of Barnabas


"We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead" (_Letter of Barnabas_ 15:6–8 [A.D. 74]). 



Ignatius of Antioch


"[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death" (_Letter to the Magnesians_ 8 [A.D. 110]). 



Justin Martyr


"[W]e too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined [on] you—namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your heart. . . . [H]ow is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us—I speak of fleshly circumcision and Sabbaths and feasts? . . . God enjoined you to keep the Sabbath, and imposed on you other precepts for a sign, as I have already said, on account of your unrighteousness and that of your fathers . . ." (_Dialogue with Trypho the Jew_ 18, 21 [A.D. 155]). 

"But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead" (_First Apology_ 67 [A.D. 155]). 



Tertullian


"[L]et him who contends that the Sabbath is still to be observed as a balm of salvation, and circumcision on the eighth day . . . teach us that, for the time past, righteous men kept the Sabbath or practiced circumcision, and were thus rendered ‘friends of God.’ For if circumcision purges a man, since God made Adam uncircumcised, why did he not circumcise him, even after his sinning, if circumcision purges? . . . Therefore, since God originated Adam uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, consequently his offspring also, Abel, offering him sacrifices, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, was by him [God] commended [Gen. 4:1–7, Heb. 11:4]. . . . Noah also, uncircumcised—yes, and unobservant of the Sabbath—God freed from the deluge. For Enoch too, most righteous man, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, he translated from this world, who did not first taste death in order that, being a candidate for eternal life, he might show us that we also may, without the burden of the law of Moses, please God" (_An Answer to the Jews_ 2 [A.D. 203]). 



The Didascalia


"The apostles further appointed: On the first day of the week let there be service, and the reading of the holy scriptures, and the oblation [sacrifice of the Mass], because on the first day of the week [i.e., Sunday] our Lord rose from the place of the dead, and on the first day of the week he arose upon the world, and on the first day of the week he ascended up to heaven, and on the first day of the week he will appear at last with the angels of heaven" (_Didascalia_ 2 [A.D. 225]). 



Origen


"Hence it is not possible that the [day of] rest after the Sabbath should have come into existence from the seventh [day] of our God. On the contrary, it is our Savior who, after the pattern of his own rest, caused us to be made in the likeness of his death, and hence also of his resurrection" (_Commentary on John_ 2:28 [A.D. 229]). 



Victorinus


"The sixth day [Friday] is called _parasceve_, that is to say, the preparation of the kingdom. . . . On this day also, on account of the passion of the Lord Jesus Christ, we make either a station to God or a fast. On the seventh day he rested from all his works, and blessed it, and sanctified it. On the former day we are accustomed to fast rigorously, that on the Lord’s day we may go forth to our bread with giving of thanks. And let the _parasceve_ become a rigorous fast, lest we should appear to observe any Sabbath with the Jews . . . which Sabbath he [Christ] in his body abolished" (_The Creation of the World_ [A.D. 300]). 



Eusebius of Caesarea


"They [the early saints of the Old Testament] did not care about circumcision of the body, neither do we [Christians]. They did not care about observing Sabbaths, nor do we. They did not avoid certain kinds of food, neither did they regard the other distinctions which Moses first delivered to their posterity to be observed as symbols; nor do Christians of the present day do such things" (_Church History_ 1:4:8 [A.D. 312]). 

"[T]he day of his [Christ’s] light . . . was the day of his resurrection from the dead, which they say, as being the one and only truly holy day and the Lord’s day, is better than any number of days as we ordinarily understand them, and better than the days set apart by the Mosaic law for feasts, new moons, and Sabbaths, which the apostle [Paul] teaches are the shadow of days and not days in reality" (_Proof of the Gospel_ 4:16:186 [A.D. 319]). 



Athanasius


"The Sabbath was the end of the first creation, the Lord’s day was the beginning of the second, in which he renewed and restored the old in the same way as he prescribed that they should formerly observe the Sabbath as a memorial of the end of the first things, so we honor the Lord’s day as being the memorial of the new creation" (_On Sabbath and Circumcision_ 3 [A.D. 345]). 



Cyril of Jerusalem


"Fall not away either into the sect of the Samaritans or into Judaism, for Jesus Christ has henceforth ransomed you. Stand aloof from all observance of Sabbaths and from calling any indifferent meats common or unclean" (_Catechetical Lectures_ 4:37 [A.D. 350]). 



Council of Laodicea


"Christians should not Judaize and should not be idle on the Sabbath, but should work on that day; they should, however, particularly reverence the Lord’s day and, if possible, not work on it, because they were Christians" (Canon 29 [A.D. 360]). 



John Chrysostom


"[W]hen he [God] said, ‘You shall not kill’ . . . he did not add, ‘because murder is a wicked thing.’ The reason was that conscience had taught this beforehand, and he speaks thus, as to those who know and understand the point. Wherefore when he speaks to us of another commandment, not known to us by the dictate of conscience, he not only prohibits, but adds the reason. When, for instance, he gave commandment concerning the Sabbath— ‘On the seventh day you shall do no work’—he subjoined also the reason for this cessation. What was this? ‘Because on the seventh day God rested from all his works which he had begun to make’ [Ex. 20:10-11]. . . . For what purpose then, I ask, did he add a reason respecting the Sabbath, but did no such thing in regard to murder? Because this commandment was not one of the leading ones. It was not one of those which were accurately defined of our conscience, but a kind of partial and temporary one, and for this reason it was abolished afterward. But those which are necessary and uphold our life are the following: ‘You shall not kill. . . . You shall not commit adultery. . . . You shall not steal.’ On this account he adds no reason in this case, nor enters into any instruction on the matter, but is content with the bare prohibition" (_Homilies on the Statutes _12:9 [A.D. 387]). 

"You have put on Christ, you have become a member of the Lord and been enrolled in the heavenly city, and you still grovel in the law [of Moses]? How is it possible for you to obtain the kingdom? Listen to Paul’s words, that the observance of the law overthrows the gospel, and learn, if you will, how this comes to pass, and tremble, and shun this pitfall. Why do you keep the Sabbath and fast with the Jews?" (_Homilies on Galatians_ 2:17 [A.D. 395]). 

"The rite of circumcision was venerable in the Jews’ account, forasmuch as the law itself gave way thereto, and the Sabbath was less esteemed than circumcision. For that circumcision might be performed, the Sabbath was broken; but that the Sabbath might be kept, circumcision was never broken; and mark, I pray, the dispensation of God. This is found to be even more solemn than the Sabbath, as not being omitted at certain times. When then it is done away, much more is the Sabbath" (_Homilies on Philippians_ 10 [A.D. 402]). 



The Apostolic Constitutions


"And on the day of our Lord’s resurrection, which is the Lord’s day, meet more diligently, sending praise to God that made the universe by Jesus, and sent him to us, and condescended to let him suffer, and raised him from the dead. Otherwise what apology will he make to God who does not assemble on that day . . . in which is performed the reading of the prophets, the preaching of the gospel, the oblation of the sacrifice, the gift of the holy food" (_Apostolic Constitutions_ 2:7:60 [A.D. 400]). 



Augustine


"Well, now, I should like to be told what there is in these ten commandments, except the observance of the Sabbath, which ought not to be kept by a Christian. . . . Which of these commandments would anyone say that the Christian ought not to keep? It is possible to contend that it is not the law which was written on those two tables that the apostle [Paul] describes as ‘the letter that kills’ [2 Cor. 3:6], but the law of circumcision and the other sacred rites which are now abolished" (_The Spirit and the Letter_ 24 [A.D. 412]). 



Pope Gregory I


"It has come to my ears that certain men of perverse spirit have sown among you some things that are wrong and opposed to the holy faith, so as to forbid any work being done on the Sabbath day. What else can I call these [men] but preachers of Antichrist, who when he comes will cause the Sabbath day as well as the Lord’s day to be kept free from all work. For because he [the Antichrist] pretends to die and rise again, he wishes the Lord’s day to be held in reverence; and because he compels the people to Judaize that he may bring back the outward rite of the law, and subject the perfidy of the Jews to himself, he wishes the Sabbath to be observed. For this which is said by the prophet, ‘You shall bring in no burden through your gates on the Sabbath day’ [Jer. 17:24] could be held to as long as it was lawful for the law to be observed according to the letter. But after that the grace of almighty God, our Lord Jesus Christ, has appeared, the commandments of the law which were spoken figuratively cannot be kept according to the letter. For if anyone says that this about the Sabbath is to be kept, he must needs say that carnal sacrifices are to be offered. He must say too that the commandment about the circumcision of the body is still to be retained. But let him hear the apostle Paul saying in opposition to him: ‘If you be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing’ [Gal. 5:2]" (_Letters_ 13:1 [A.D. 597]). 

_NIHIL OBSTAT_: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
_Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004_

_IMPRIMATUR_: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
_+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004_


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## Galadriel

LOVE the Virgin of Guadalupe. It's amazing what they've found when examining the cloak.


----------



## kanozas

* PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH*

*SECTION TWO
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH*

CHAPTER TWO
I BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST, THE ONLY SON OF GOD

* ARTICLE 4
"JESUS CHRIST SUFFERED UNDER PONTIUS PILATE, WAS CRUCIFIED, DIED, AND WAS BURIED" *

*571* The Paschal mystery of Christ's cross and Resurrection stands at the center of the Good News that the apostles, and the Church following them, are to proclaim to the world. God's saving plan was accomplished "once for all"313 by the redemptive death of his Son Jesus Christ.

*572* The Church remains faithful to the interpretation of "all the Scriptures" that Jesus gave both before and after his Passover: "Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?"314 Jesus' sufferings took their historical, concrete form from the fact that he was "rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes", who handed "him to the Gentiles to be mocked and scourged and crucified".315

*573* Faith can therefore try to examine the circumstances of Jesus' death, faithfully handed on by the Gospels316 and illuminated by other historical sources, the better to understand the meaning of the Redemption.

Paragraph 1. Jesus and Israel

*574* From the beginning of Jesus' public ministry, certain Pharisees and partisans of Herod together with priests and scribes agreed together to destroy him.317 Because of certain acts of his expelling demons, forgiving sins, healing on the sabbath day, his novel interpretation of the precepts of the Law regarding purity, and his familiarity with tax collectors and public sinners318 -- some ill-intentioned persons suspected Jesus of demonic possession.319 He is accused of blasphemy and false prophecy, religious crimes which the Law punished with death by stoning.320

*575* Many of Jesus' deeds and words constituted a "sign of contradiction",321 but more so for the religious authorities in Jerusalem, whom the Gospel according to John often calls simply "the Jews",322 than for the ordinary People of God.323 To be sure, Christ's relations with the Pharisees were not exclusively polemical. Some Pharisees warn him of the danger he was courting;324 Jesus praises some of them, like the scribe of _Mark _12:34, and dines several times at their homes.325 Jesus endorses some of the teachings imparted by this religious elite of God's people: the resurrection of the dead,326 certain forms of piety (almsgiving, fasting and prayer),327 the custom of addressing God as Father, and the centrality of the commandment to love God and neighbor.328

*576* In the eyes of many in Israel, Jesus seems to be acting against essential institutions of the Chosen People:

- submission to the whole of the Law in its written commandments and, for the Pharisees, in the interpretation of oral tradition;

- the centrality of the Temple at Jerusalem as the holy place where God's presence dwells in a special way;

- faith in the one God whose glory no man can share.

* I. JESUS AND THE LAW *

*577* At the beginning of the Sermon on the Mount Jesus issued a solemn warning in which he presented God's law, given on Sinai during the first covenant, in light of the grace of the New Covenant:



Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets: I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law, until all is accomplished. Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.329
*578* Jesus, Israel's Messiah and therefore the greatest in the kingdom of heaven, was to fulfill the Law by keeping it in its all embracing detail - according to his own words, down to "the least of these commandments".330 He is in fact the only one who could keep it perfectly.331 On their own admission the Jews were never able to observe the Law in its entirety without violating the least of its precepts.332 This is why every year on the Day of Atonement the children of Israel ask God's forgiveness for their transgressions of the Law. The Law indeed makes up one inseparable whole, and St. James recalls, "Whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it."333

*579* This principle of integral observance of the Law not only in letter but in spirit was dear to the Pharisees. By giving Israel this principle they had led many Jews of Jesus' time to an extreme religious zeal.334 This zeal, were it not to lapse into "hypocritical" casuistry,335 could only prepare the People for the unprecedented intervention of God through the perfect fulfillment of the Law by the only Righteous One in place of all sinners.336

*580* The perfect fulfillment of the Law could be the work of none but the divine legislator, born subject to the Law in the person of the Son.337 In Jesus, the Law no longer appears engraved on tables of stone but "upon the heart" of the Servant who becomes "a covenant to the people", because he will "faithfully bring forth justice".338 Jesus fulfills the Law to the point of taking upon himself "the curse of the Law" incurred by those who do not "abide by the things written in the book of the Law, and do them", for his death took place to redeem them "from the transgressions under the first covenant".339

*581* The Jewish people and their spiritual leaders viewed Jesus as a rabbi.340 He often argued within the framework of rabbinical interpretation of the Law.341 Yet Jesus could not help but offend the teachers of the Law, for he was not content to propose his interpretation alongside theirs but taught the people "as one who had authority, and not as their scribes".342 In Jesus, the same Word of God that had resounded on Mount Sinai to give the written Law to Moses, made itself heard anew on the Mount of the Beatitudes.343 Jesus did not abolish the Law but fulfilled it by giving its ultimate interpretation in a divine way: "You have heard that it was said to the men of old. . . But I say to you. . ."344 With this same divine authority, he disavowed certain human traditions of the Pharisees that were "making void the word of God".345

*582* Going even further, Jesus perfects the dietary law, so important in Jewish daily life, by revealing its pedagogical meaning through a divine interpretation: "Whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him. . . (Thus he declared all foods clean.). . . What comes out of a man is what defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts. . ."346 In presenting with divine authority the definitive interpretation of the Law, Jesus found himself confronted by certain teachers of the Law who did not accept his interpretation of the Law, guaranteed though it was by the divine signs that accompanied it.347 This was the case especially with the sabbath laws, for he recalls, often with rabbinical arguments, that the sabbath rest is not violated by serving God and neighbor,348 which his own healings did.


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## kanozas

http://www.fatherspeaks.net/eugenia_msg.html
[Excerpt]

"I promised the world a Messiah. I did all I could to prepare His coming, showing Myself in the figures that represented Him, even thousands of years before His coming! For who is this Messiah? Whence does He come? What will He do on earth? Whom does He represent? The Messiah is God.Who is God? God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Whence does He come? Or rather, who ordered Him tocome among men? It was I, His Father, God. Whom is He to represent on earth? His Father, God. What is He to do on earth? He will make the Father, God, known and loved.Did He not say: “Do you not know that I must be about My Father’s business?” (“Nesciebatis quia in his quae Patris mei sunt oportet me esse?” St. Luke, ch. 2, v. 49). “I have come only to do the will of My Father.” “Whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you.” “You will pray to Him like this: ‘Our Father, Who art in heaven...’, and elsewehere, since He came to glorify the Father and to make Him known to men, He says: “Whoever sees Me, sees the Father.” “I am in the Father and the Father is in Me.” “No one comes to the Father except through Me” (“Nemo venit ad Patrem nisi per me” St. John, ch. 14, v. 6) “Whoever is with Me is also with My Father”, etc.? 
Realize then, o men, that for all eternity I have had but one desire, to make Myself known to men and be loved by them. I wish to stay for ever with them."

"...Understand well that I loved you, as it were, more than My beloved Son, or rather, more than Myself. What I am telling you is so true that, if one of My creatures had been enough to atone for the sins of other men through a life and death similar to those of My Son, I would have hesitated. Why? Because I would have betrayed My love by making a beloved creature suffer, rather than suffering Myself, in My Son. I would never have wished My children to suffer. "


"I want men to be able to know Me and to feel that I am close to each one of them. Remember, o men, that I wish to be the hope of humanity. Am I not already? Man would be lost if I were not his hope. But it is necessary for Me to be recognized as such, so that peace, confidence and love may enter men’s hearts and put them in contact with their Father in heaven and on earth! Do not think of Me as that frightening old man whom men depict in their pictures and books! No, no, I am neither younger nor older than My Son and My Holy Spirit. Because of this I would like everybody, from the youngest to the oldest, to call Me by the familiar name of Father and Friend. For I am always with you, I am making Myself similar to you so as to make you similar to Me. How great would be My joy to see parents teaching their children to address Me often by the name of Father, as indeed I am! How I would like to see infused into these young souls a trust and a filial love for Me! I have done everything for you; will you not do this for Me? "


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## kanozas

TGIF and TGISC (Thank G-d It's Still Christmas!)

https://www.ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/TWELVDAY.TXT

ORIGIN OF "THE TWELVE DAYS OF CHRISTMAS"
An Underground Catechism


You're all familiar with the Christmas song, "The Twelve Days of
Christmas" I think. To most it's a delightful nonsense rhyme set
to music. But it had a quite serious purpose when it was written.

It is a good deal more than just a repetitious melody with pretty
phrases and a list of strange gifts.

Catholics in England during the period 1558 to 1829, when
Parliament finally emancipated Catholics in England, were
prohibited from ANY practice of their faith by law - private OR
public. It was a crime to BE a Catholic.

"The Twelve Days of Christmas" was written in England as one of
the "catechism songs" to help young Catholics learn the tenets of
their faith - a memory aid, when to be caught with anything in
*writing* indicating adherence to the Catholic faith could not
only get you imprisoned, it could get you hanged, or shortened by
a head - or hanged, drawn and quartered, a rather peculiar and
ghastly punishment I'm not aware was ever practiced anywhere else.
Hanging, drawing and quartering involved hanging a person by the
neck until they had almost, but not quite, suffocated to death;
then the party was taken down from the gallows, and disembowelled
while still alive; and while the entrails were still lying on the
street, where the executioners stomped all over them, the victim
was tied to four large farm horses, and literally torn into five
parts - one to each limb and the remaining torso.

The songs gifts are hidden meanings to the teachings of the faith.
The "true love" mentioned in the song doesn't refer to an earthly
suitor, it refers to God Himself. The "me" who receives the
presents refers to every baptized person. The partridge in a pear
tree is Jesus Christ, the Son of God. In the song, Christ is
symbolically presented as a mother partridge which feigns injury
to decoy predators from her helpless nestlings, much in memory of
the expression of Christ's sadness over the fate of Jerusalem:
"Jerusalem! Jerusalem! How often would I have sheltered thee under
my wings, as a hen does her chicks, but thou wouldst not have it
so..."

The other symbols mean the following:

2 Turtle Doves = The Old and New Testaments
3 French Hens = Faith, Hope and Charity, the Theological Virtues
4 Calling Birds = the Four Gospels and/or the Four Evangelists
5 Golden Rings = The first Five Books of the Old Testament, the
"Pentateuch", which gives the history of man's fall from grace.
6 Geese A-laying = the six days of creation
7 Swans A-swimming = the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit, the seven
sacraments 8 Maids A-milking = the eight beatitudes
9 Ladies Dancing = the nine Fruits of the Holy Spirit
10 Lords A-leaping = the ten commandments
11 Pipers Piping = the eleven faithful apostles
12 Drummers Drumming = the twelve points of doctrine in the
Apostle's Creed

--Fr. Hal Stockert, Fishnet


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## kanozas

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/judaism/

Why Jews become Catholics.


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## kanozas

The Seven Sorrows of Our Lady

http://www.themostholyrosary.com/appendix1.htm

*The Blessed Virgin Mary grants seven graces to the souls who honor her daily by
saying seven Hail Mary's and meditating on her tears and dolors (sorrows).
The devotion was passed on by St. Bridget.*



The prophecy of Simeon. (St. Luke 2:34, 35)



The flight into Egypt. (St. Matthew 2:13, 14)


The loss of the Child Jesus in the temple. (St. Luke 2: 43-45)


The meeting of Jesus and Mary on the Way of the Cross.


The Crucifixion.

The taking down of the Body of Jesus from the Cross.


The burial of Jesus.


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## kanozas




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## Lucia

Ladies there a prayer vigil for all the souls lost to abortion and against abortion from 6 eastern time today to 6 pm tomorrow if you are interested and have a little time please say a prayer. Thanks


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## kanozas

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/0...amid-spat-over-condoms-with-pope-francis.html

Published January 25, 2017
Associated Press
Facebook Twitter livefyre Email Print




FILE - In this June 25, 2015 file photo, Pope Francis greets the Grand Master of the Sovereign Order of Malta Matthew Festing, right, at the end of a private audience in the Pontiff's private library at the Vatican.  (AP)

ROME –  The head of the Knights of Malta resigned after entering into a public spat with Pope Francis over the ouster of a top official involved in a condom scandal, a spokeswoman for the ancient lay Catholic order said Wednesday.

Matthew Festing decided to resign after meeting with the pope on Tuesday, Knights of Malta spokeswoman Marianna Balfour told The Associated Press.

"I can confirm this," Balfour said in an email, adding a statement would be forthcoming.

Festing had refused to cooperate with a papal commission investigating his ouster of the order's grand chancellor, Albrecht von Boeselager, over revelations that the order's charity branch had distributed condoms under his watch. Festing had cited the Knights' status as a sovereign entity in refusing to cooperate.

The remarkable showdown was the latest example of Francis clashing with more conservative elements in the Catholic Church, especially those for whom sexual ethics and doctrinal orthodoxy are paramount. The dispute had raised questions about the role played by Cardinal Raymond Burke, a leading conservative and Francis critic who also happens to be the pope's envoy to the order.

Festing's resignation, some nine years into a life term, appears to set the stage for the Knights' to convene an assembly to elect a new leader. Many of the orders members had lamented how the confrontation with the Holy See had drawn unwanted negative attention to the order, which relies on donations to fund its huge charity works around the globe.

Last week, the Holy See said it expected the order to cooperate with its probe, and in a sharply worded statement said it planned to take action to resolve the dispute. Canon lawyers had raised alarm at the investigation, giving it seemed to set the stage for one sovereign entity intervening in the internal affairs of another.

The Order of Malta has many trappings of a sovereign state, issuing its own stamps, passports and license plates and holding diplomatic relations with 106 states, the Holy See included.

Festing suspended Boeselager on Dec. 8 over revelations that the Knights' charity branch Malteser International had distributed thousands of condoms to poor people in Myanmar under his watch.

Church teaching forbids artificial contraception. Boeselager has said he stopped the programs when he learned of them. The order's leadership has said the scandal was grave and called it "disgraceful" that Boeselager refused an order to obey Festing and resign.

Francis appointed a commission to investigate after Boeselager said he had been told by Festing, in Burke's presence, that the Holy See wanted him to resign over the scandal. The Vatican secretary of state has said the pope wanted nothing of the sort and wanted the dispute to be resolved through dialogue.

Boeselager has challenged his ouster with an appeal to the Knights' internal tribunal.

The knights trace their history to the 11th-century Crusades with the establishment of an infirmary in Jerusalem that cared for people of all faiths. It now counts 13,500 members and 100,000 staff and volunteers who provide health care in hospitals and clinics around the world.


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## Belle Du Jour

Interesting that Pope Francis reinstated Boeselager who promoted the condoms...


----------



## kanozas

Because saving a life is of utmost importance in an AIDS epidemic, according to what was on the news today.  I agree with it and believe that Pope Benedict XVI was the first to allow it for another case such as this?  It was ages ago.  I'll check around to find it.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

kanozas said:


> Because saving a life is of utmost importance in an AIDS epidemic, according to what was on the news today.  I agree with it and believe that Pope Benedict XVI was the first to allow it for another case such as this?  It was ages ago.  I'll check around to find it.



Completely and totally disagree with this, especially since it is completely against church teaching.


----------



## kanozas

[What is also of interest to consider are all the married women who become infected by their husbands.  It's not a cut'n dry issue exactly but is complicated.  ]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/22/world/europe/22pope.html

*Vatican Adds Nuance to Pope’s Condom Remarks*
By RACHEL DONADIODEC. 21, 2010


ROME — The Vatican on Tuesday issued its most authoritative clarification on Pope Benedict XVI’s recent remarks that condoms could sometimes be used for disease prevention, saying that the pope in no way justified their use to prevent pregnancy.

The statement appeared to be a sign of the lingering confusion — and, perhaps, Vatican infighting — over the remarks. Approved by Benedict himself, it said his words had been “repeatedly manipulated” and did not “signify a change in Catholic moral teaching.”

In a book published last month,* Benedict said that although condoms were not “a real or moral solution,” in some cases, they might be used as “a first step in the direction of a moralization, a first assumption of responsibility.*” He cited as an example a male prostitute who might use a condom so as not to spread disease.

AIDS activists, especially in Africa, where H.I.V. is rampant, welcomed the pope’s comments, as did some moral theologians. But some conservative Catholics, especially in the United States, feared that it would be misinterpreted as a move to condone condom use.

Tuesday’s statement did not go beyond or contradict two previous clarifications by the Vatican spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, on the same issue. But it came directly from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the most powerful Vatican office, in what experts said could be a sign of internal Vatican tensions — or a response to criticism.

“I have never seen a communiqué from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith that explains the words of the pope after the fact,” said Paolo Rodari, a Vatican expert at Il Foglio, an Italian daily newspaper. “I think it’s unique. And it demonstrates how many complaints and serious criticism the Vatican has received.”

By publishing “Light of the World,” a book of interviews conducted by a German journalist, Peter Seewald, Benedict effectively did an end run around the Vatican’s communications structures — and also around the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which oversees all doctrine.

*The Vatican’s new statement said that Benedict’s comments had been misinterpreted and manipulated* by those who effectively saw them as permission for more widespread use of condoms, which like all birth control goes against church teaching.

*In the book’s German and English editions, the text cites the example of a male prostitute, implying homosexual sex, in which a condom would not be a form of contraception. But the Italian edition uses the feminine form of prostitute.*


Last month, Father Lombardi said that the Italian translation was an error, but added that the pope had specifically told him that the issue was not procreation but rather disease prevention — regardless of gender.

n Tuesday’s statement, the Vatican did not touch the gender question. But it said, “The idea that anyone could deduce from the words of Benedict XVI that it is somehow legitimate, in certain situations, to use condoms to avoid an unwanted pregnancy is completely arbitrary and is in no way justified either by his words or in his thought.”

Mr. Rodari said the prefect of the congregation, Cardinal William J. Levada, the highest-ranking American at the Vatican, had most likely not been shown the book before it was published since it consisted of interviews, not official church doctrine.

Father Lombardi said that he could not comment on whether Cardinal Levada had seen the book before publication, but that it “went without saying” that Benedict had approved Tuesday’s statement.

Issued in six languages, Tuesday’s statement, “Note of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on the Trivialization of Sexuality Regarding Certain Interpretations of ‘Light of the World,’ ” was a masterpiece of Vatican nuance. It used technical theological language, while the pope had used a conversational tone in his book.

It said that condom use by a prostitute for disease prevention could not be considered a “lesser evil” because prostitution is “gravely immoral,” and that “an action which is objectively evil, even if a lesser evil, can never be licitly willed.”

*Yet it added that “those involved in prostitution who are H.I.V. positive and who seek to diminish the risk of contagion by the use of a condom  may be taking the first step in respecting the life of another even if the evil of prostitution remains in all its gravity*.”


----------



## Belle Du Jour

kanozas said:


> [What is also of interest to consider are all the married women who become infected by their husbands.  It's not a cut'n dry issue exactly but is complicated.  ]
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/22/world/europe/22pope.html
> 
> *Vatican Adds Nuance to Pope’s Condom Remarks*
> By RACHEL DONADIODEC. 21, 2010
> 
> 
> ROME — The Vatican on Tuesday issued its most authoritative clarification on Pope Benedict XVI’s recent remarks that condoms could sometimes be used for disease prevention, saying that the pope in no way justified their use to prevent pregnancy.
> 
> The statement appeared to be a sign of the lingering confusion — and, perhaps, Vatican infighting — over the remarks. Approved by Benedict himself, it said his words had been “repeatedly manipulated” and did not “signify a change in Catholic moral teaching.”
> 
> In a book published last month,* Benedict said that although condoms were not “a real or moral solution,” in some cases, they might be used as “a first step in the direction of a moralization, a first assumption of responsibility.*” He cited as an example a male prostitute who might use a condom so as not to spread disease.
> 
> AIDS activists, especially in Africa, where H.I.V. is rampant, welcomed the pope’s comments, as did some moral theologians. But some conservative Catholics, especially in the United States, feared that it would be misinterpreted as a move to condone condom use.
> 
> Tuesday’s statement did not go beyond or contradict two previous clarifications by the Vatican spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, on the same issue. But it came directly from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the most powerful Vatican office, in what experts said could be a sign of internal Vatican tensions — or a response to criticism.
> 
> “I have never seen a communiqué from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith that explains the words of the pope after the fact,” said Paolo Rodari, a Vatican expert at Il Foglio, an Italian daily newspaper. “I think it’s unique. And it demonstrates how many complaints and serious criticism the Vatican has received.”
> 
> By publishing “Light of the World,” a book of interviews conducted by a German journalist, Peter Seewald, Benedict effectively did an end run around the Vatican’s communications structures — and also around the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which oversees all doctrine.
> 
> *The Vatican’s new statement said that Benedict’s comments had been misinterpreted and manipulated* by those who effectively saw them as permission for more widespread use of condoms, which like all birth control goes against church teaching.
> 
> *In the book’s German and English editions, the text cites the example of a male prostitute, implying homosexual sex, in which a condom would not be a form of contraception. But the Italian edition uses the feminine form of prostitute.*
> 
> 
> Last month, Father Lombardi said that the Italian translation was an error, but added that the pope had specifically told him that the issue was not procreation but rather disease prevention — regardless of gender.
> 
> n Tuesday’s statement, the Vatican did not touch the gender question. But it said, “The idea that anyone could deduce from the words of Benedict XVI that it is somehow legitimate, in certain situations, to use condoms to avoid an unwanted pregnancy is completely arbitrary and is in no way justified either by his words or in his thought.”
> 
> Mr. Rodari said the prefect of the congregation, Cardinal William J. Levada, the highest-ranking American at the Vatican, had most likely not been shown the book before it was published since it consisted of interviews, not official church doctrine.
> 
> Father Lombardi said that he could not comment on whether Cardinal Levada had seen the book before publication, but that it “went without saying” that Benedict had approved Tuesday’s statement.
> 
> Issued in six languages, Tuesday’s statement, “Note of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on the Trivialization of Sexuality Regarding Certain Interpretations of ‘Light of the World,’ ” was a masterpiece of Vatican nuance. It used technical theological language, while the pope had used a conversational tone in his book.
> 
> It said that condom use by a prostitute for disease prevention could not be considered a “lesser evil” because prostitution is “gravely immoral,” and that “an action which is objectively evil, even if a lesser evil, can never be licitly willed.”
> 
> *Yet it added that “those involved in prostitution who are H.I.V. positive and who seek to diminish the risk of contagion by the use of a condom  may be taking the first step in respecting the life of another even if the evil of prostitution remains in all its gravity*.”




I would not quote to NY times as a valid source since they are liberal and often take words out of context to justify their liberal perspective. 

The pope was giving an interview and not speaking ex cathedra. 

I see no evidence  that he issued a papal letter on the issue. 

*"Yet it added that “those involved in prostitution who are H.I.V. positive and who seek to diminish the risk of contagion by the use of a condom may be taking the first step in respecting the life of another even if the evil of prostitution remains in all its gravity*.” Basically this is saying a first step still does not replace the evil and gravity of the situation. It's still a grave evil so none of it can be sanctioned. 

Therefore, Boeslager was acting contrary to church teaching and deserved to be sacked. My hope is that the resignation of Festing is not accepted by the council.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

@Galadriel or @Lucia would love your thoughts on this.


----------



## Lucia

This is very complicated because they are a sovereign entity, but their "sovereignty" was given to them by a previous Pope.  Now they have a sort of a protected status among other countries, but they are allowed to use lands but they do not own those lands or have courts or rule over any peoples so they are not a "nation".
They are a Roman Catholic order and as such fall under the Holy See and the Popes authority ultimately. So even though he may not be doing this to their liking they must defer to the Holy See and the Pope.
If Boeslager handed out condemns in some misguided attempt to help the poor, instead of following church doctrine, he deserved to go.

*"Francis appointed a commission to investigate after Boeselager said he had been told by Festing, in Burke's presence, that the Holy See wanted him to resign over the scandal. The Vatican secretary of state has said the pope wanted nothing of the sort and wanted the dispute to be resolved through dialogue."
*
If the grand master misinterpreted or outright lied about the Holy See regarding Boeselager, then the whole thing needs to be aired out in a council hearing, and yes the Pope should have the order investigated because he can and he should with these goings on.  Who knows what else has gone on unchecked.

Festing resigned over the investigation, yes its unorthodox but it makes him appear suspicious. Since they are ultimately a reflection of the Roman Catholic Church they have to live up to higher standards.  *I don't think Boeselager should have been re-instated so quickly, before any hearing or investigation is completed.  If he went against church teachings he should not be back in the fold, just like that even after a "hearing"  unless he's repented, confessed, and understands the grave mistake he made and is willing to stay in line with the church. *_(I don't know what the forgiveness procedure is and how many times they get to do right before they're cut off and kicked out ) _

I have to say that if Pope Francis is going to really clean house (RCC)  he needs to check, and has the authority to check, everybody in the RCC especially bishops, cardinals, the orders (nuns included) and looks like he's going to be straight gangsta about it.  It won't always be nice or pretty but it has to be done.


----------



## kanozas

The New York Times is but one VALID news source.  Benedict XVI did, in fact, issue such a statement.  People are taking it out of context out of a sense of legalism.  I'm simply _not_ going to argue what was said nor the meaning behind it neither am I going to question anyone's faith on the matter.   

https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/vatican-statement-benedict-xvi-and-condoms

*Vatican statement on Benedict XVI and condoms*
John L. Allen Jr.    |  Nov. 21, 2010  NCR Today

PrintemailPDF
Jesuit Fr. Federico Lombardi, director of the Holy See Press Office, issued a statement Nov. 21 in response to wide international coverage of Pope Benedict XVI's comments on condoms in a new book-length interview with the German journalist Peter Seewald.

In essence, Benedict reiterated the church's broad opposition to artificial birth control, but said that in some exceptional cases, where the intent is to prevent disease rather than pregnancy, the use of a condom could be a "first step" towards a greater sense of moral responsibility.

In his statement, Lombardi insists that Benedict has not changed church teaching on condoms, but rather given papal expression to a position long held by moral theologians and other "ecclesial personalities," including a number of cardinals.

The full text of Lombardi's statement follows, in an _NCR_ translation from Italian.

* * *
*Note of Fr. Lombardi on the words of the pope on the question of condoms*

At the end of chapter ten [note: in the English edition, chapter eleven] of the book _Light of the World_, the pope responds to two questions about the struggle against AIDS and the use of condoms, questions which refer back to the discussons which followed some words spoken by the pope on the subject in the course of his trip to Africa in 2009.



Explore Pope Francis’ apostolic exhortation on the family. Download our FREE study guide.

The pope clearly reaffirms that he had not meant [in 2009] to take a position on the problem of condoms in general, but simply wanted to affirm strongly that the problem of AIDS cannot be resolved solely with the distribution of condoms, because much more has to be done: prevention, education, help, council, and staying close to the people – both so they don’t become sick, but also when they are sick.

The pope observed that even in non-ecclesial environments, there’s a similar awareness, such as that of the so-called “ABC” approach (abstinence – be faithful – condoms), in which the first two elements (abstinence and fidelity) are far more determinative and fundamental for the struggle against AIDS. Meanwhile the condom, in the final analysis, seems like a shortcut when the other two elements are missing. It must be clear, therefore, that condoms are not the solution to the problem.

The pope then broadens the focus, insisting that to concentrate solely on condoms is tantamount to making sexuality into something banal, losing its meaning as an expression of love between persons, and turning it into a sort of “drug.” Struggling against the banalization of sexuality is “part of a great effort to see that sexuality is positively understood, and can exercise its positive effect on the human person in his or her totality.”

In the light of this ample and profound vision of human sexuality, and its modern challenges, the pope reaffirms that “naturally the church does not consider condoms as the authentic and moral solution” to the problem of AIDS.

Thus the pope is not reforming or changing the teaching of the church, but reaffirming it by placing it in the context of the value and the dignity of human sexuality as an expression of love and responsibility.

At the same time, the pope considers an exceptional situation in which the exercise of sexuality respresents a true risk to the life of another. In that case, the pope does not morally justify the disordered exercise of sexuality, but holds that the use of a condom in order to diminish the threat of infection is “a first assumption of responsibility,” and “a first step in a movement toward a different way, a more human way, of living sexuality,” rather than not using a condom and exposing the other person to a threat to their life.

In that sense, the reasoning of the pope certainly cannot be defined as a revolutionary shift. Numerous moral theologians and authoritative ecclesiastical personalities have sustained, and still sustain, similar positions. Nevertheless, it’s true that until now they have not been heard with such clarity from the mouth of the pope, even if it’s in a colloquial rather than magisterial form.

Benedict XVI therefore courageously gives us an important contribution of clarification and deepening on a question that has long been debated. It’s an original contribution, because on the one hand it remains faithful to moral principles and demonstrates lucidity in rejecting “faith in condoms” as an illusory path; on the other hand, it shows a comprehensive and far-sighted vision, attentive to discovering the small steps – even if they’re only initial and still confused – of a humanity often spiritually and culturally impoverished, towards a more human and responsible exercise of sexuality.


----------



## kanozas

Furthermore, I'm offering this as_ information_ that all Catholics should be aware of to know what is going on whether they agree or not.  Sometimes, we are so bent on our legalistic views that we overlook the situation at hand in favor of ideologies or that we favor politics over ideologies (Dr. Green).   

http://thewandererpress.com/catholi...e-was-speaking-about-contraceptives-for-zika/

*Vatican affirms Pope was speaking about contraceptives for Zika*

February 20, 2016
ROME, February 19, 2016 (LifeSiteNews) – Vatican spokesman Fr. Federico Lombardi has affirmed that the Holy Father was indeed speaking of “condoms and contraceptives” when on the flight back from Mexico, Pope Francis said couples could rightly “avoid pregnancy” in the wake of the Zika virus scare.

Fr. Lombardi told Vatican Radio today, “The contraceptive or condom, in particular cases of emergency or gravity, could be the object of discernment in a serious case of conscience. This is what the Pope said.”

According to Lombardi, the pope spoke of “the possibility of taking recourse to contraception or condoms in cases of emergency or special situations. He is not saying that this possibility is accepted without discernment, indeed, he said clearly that it can be considered in cases of special urgency.”

Lombardi reiterated the example that Pope Francis made of Pope Paul VI’s supposed “authorization of the use of the pill for the religious who were at very serious risk” of rape. This, said Lombardi, “makes us understand that it is not that it was a normal situation in which this was taken into account.”

Vatican spokesman: “The contraceptive or condom, in particular cases of emergency or gravity, could be the object of discernment in a serious case of conscience. This is what the Pope said.”

On the plane Thursday, the pope was asked by one reporter whether the Church can “take into consideration the concept of ‘the lesser of two evils?’” when it comes to the question of preventing pregnancy to avoid transmission of the virus.

The pope opened his answer by categorically condemning abortion as a solution to the Zika virus, but on the question of avoiding pregnancy, he added: “We are speaking in terms of the conflict between the fifth and sixth commandment.”

“The great Paul VI in a difficult situation in Africa permitted sisters to use contraception for cases of rape,” he told reporters.

“Avoiding pregnancy is not an absolute evil,” the pope added. “In certain cases, as in this one, such as the one I mentioned of Blessed Paul VI, it was clear.”

The pope’s answer, in particular the apparent parallel he drew between the case of the nuns’ use of contraception and the case of the Zika virus, has widely led to the interpretation that the pope was approving the use of contraception in some cases.

(Find a full transcript of the pope’s remarks on the plane here.)

In his famous 1968 encyclical Humanae Vitae, Pope Paul VI reiterated the Church’s long-standing and definitive teaching that artificial contraception is “intrinsically wrong,” namely that it is always and in every instance evil, because it contradicts the procreative purpose of sex.

Some moral theologians have said that non-abortifacient contraceptives could be used in cases of rape as a means of self-defense against an aggressor. This distinction would not apply in the case of voluntary intercourse between couples concerned about Zika.

In addition to referencing the Congo nuns, Lombardi pointed today to Pope Benedict XVI’s comments on condoms in his 2010 book-length interview The Light of the World. Therein, Lombardi said, Benedict “spoke about the use of condoms in the case of risk of contagion by AIDS.”

In the book, Pope Benedict told journalist Peter Seewald that in some cases, such as that of a male prostitute, the use of a condom “can be a first step in the direction of a moralization, a first assumption of responsibility, on the way toward recovering an awareness that not everything is allowed and that one cannot do whatever one wants. But it is not really the way to deal with the evil of HIV infection. That can really lie only in a humanization of sexuality.” Pope Benedict followed the comments by saying that the Church “does not regard it as a real or moral solution, but, in this or that case, there can be nonetheless in the intention of reducing the risk of infection, a first step in a movement toward a different way, a more human way, of living sexuality.”

The Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith corrected mainstream media misinterpretations of those statements that falsely presented them as justifying contraception. In its statement, the CDF said, “A number of erroneous interpretations have emerged” that have “caused confusion concerning the position of the Catholic Church regarding certain questions of sexual morality.”

“The idea that anyone could deduce from the words of Benedict XVI that it is somehow legitimate, in certain situations, to use condoms to avoid an unwanted pregnancy is completely arbitrary and is in no way justified either by his words or in his thought,” the statement added.

The CDF statement also dismissed the suggestion that the use of a condom by HIV-infected prostitutes could constitute a “lesser evil.” This interpretation, it says, is erroneous since, “An action which is objectively evil, even if a lesser evil, can never be licitly willed.”

The CDF summarized the intention of the pope’s comments: “The Church teaches that prostitution is immoral and should be shunned. However, those involved in prostitution who are HIV positive and who seek to diminish the risk of contagion by the use of a condom may be taking the first step in respecting the life of another – even if the evil of prostitution remains in all its gravity.”


----------



## kanozas

I don't know if it was released WHY he handed out condoms.  That's probably the key and if it were to protect people from acquiring HIV/AIDS, Zika, other STI/STD's, it's going to be touchy considering the statements and affirmations of by two separate Popes.


----------



## Honey Bee

kanozas said:


> “The great Paul VI in a difficult situation in Africa permitted sisters to use contraception for cases of rape,” he told reporters.


I don't mean to butt in, but what happened to the sisters in Africa?


----------



## kanozas

Honey Bee said:


> I don't mean to butt in, but what happened to the sisters in Africa?




Who's butting in?  Everyone pays for this site and you are free to post wherever you please    But I don't know.  

OKay...found this and ahem....I wonder why they say that removing the White soldiers made matters worse?  Should have said the Belgian officers.  It was in 1960 and beyond in the Belgian Congo.  Nuns were part of the casualty of war and independence struggles.  Oh, and I wish people woul delineate countries in the continent of Africa and not say "Africa" as though it were one city/town/bled.  Argh.

https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/just-catholic/nuns-rape-and-zika-virus

Now that I've searched for this, going to post the article and highlight something curious:

*Nuns, rape, and the Zika virus*






Gleyse Kelly da Silva poses for a photo Jan. 25 with her daughter, Maria Giovanna, who has microcephaly, in Recife, Brazil. (CNS photo/Ueslei Marcelino, Reuters)
Phyllis Zagano   |  Feb. 24, 2016  Just Catholic

PrintemailPDF
Here are the facts: The Zika virus, named for a tropical African forest, has a 65-year history of human infection. First discovered in Ugandan monkeys, Zika is transmitted both by mosquitos and by sexual contact. It has been linked recently to birth defects in the poorest regions of northern Brazil, where one percent of newborns are microcephalic.

That is why Pope Francis, during his plane ride back from Mexico recently, was talking about raped nuns in Africa and contraception.

The pope's comment about those missionary women religious in the former Belgian Congo was real. Within of week of Congo's June 30, 1960, declaration of independence, the army threatened mutiny. Its officers were white Belgians; its enlisted men were black Congolese. Removing the white officers only made matters worse, and within weeks 25,000 Belgians fled the country.

The missionaries -- men and women -- stayed. They were in grave danger, but they stayed to serve the poor.

Here is what the Belgian Government Information Center wrote about some mid-July 1960 attacks: " ... the nuns ... were put in jail ... Negro soldiers attacked one nun and after a fierce struggle, raped her. Later, they attacked the second nun. Two men trampled her under foot."  *[Evidentally, this was a 1960's report in White-man 1960's language   SMH]*



Explore Pope Francis’ apostolic exhortation on the family. Download our FREE study guide.

And it continued for years.

The current dust up is over whether some or all of the remaining women religious were appropriately given contraceptives.

They were.

Why?

No woman can be forced to become pregnant. Any woman can protect herself from rape and its consequences. In his definitive study, _Rape Within Marriage_: _A Moral Analysis Delayed_, Edward J. Bayer affirms that physicians in early 1960s Congo gave women religious anovulant drugs and that their actions later found papal approval.

*Bayer talks about much more. He states that when a married woman clearly should not bear a child -- whether due to disease or illness or other (presumably temporary) condition -- she may in effect "protect" herself if her husband is unwilling to cooperate.*

That is:* No woman needs to become pregnant against her will and, especially, women may protect themselves from rape and its possible consequences.


The overall moral analysis is far more refined than cases of raped missionaries or the wives of drunken husbands. The overall moral analysis is one of common sense.*

So what about Zika? Governments around the world are urging those infected and those at risk of infection not to begin pregnancies. Pope Francis' spokesman has clarified the papal plane talk, and recalled Pope Benedict XVI's suggestion that AIDS carriers use condoms to prevent disease.

Now, both Francis and the bishops in the affected countries have said abortion is not the answer. But those same bishops in the affected countries have not taught the common sense solution to women whose only means of avoiding pregnancy is contraception.

So, where does all this leave the poor women of Central and South America, now at risk of seriously complicated pregnancies and births? Remember, they are poor. Can missionaries provide these women some protection? Will they? And, what will it be? The so-called "pill" was U.S. Food and Drug Administration-approved for contraceptive use in 1960. To this day its side effects -- blood clots, heart attack, stroke, depression, weight gain -- are downplayed by big pharma.

The final answer is an end to Zika. The intermediate steps are fraught with danger. For women.

[Phyllis Zagano is senior research associate-in-residence at Hofstra University in Hempstead, N.Y., currently a visiting Fulbright Specialist at the Waterford Institute of Technology, Ireland. She will speak May 6, 2016, at the University of St. Michael's College, Toronto and Sept. 24, 2016 at The Catholic University of America, Washington, D.C. Her books include _Sacred Silence: Daily Meditations for Lent_ and _In the Image of Christ: Essays on Being Catholic and Female_.]

*Editor's note:* We can send you an email alert every time Phyllis Zagano's column, Just Catholic, is posted. Go to this page and follow directions: Email alert sign-up.

Zika virus


----------



## kanozas

Belle Du Jour said:


> I would not quote to NY times as a valid source since they are liberal and often take words out of context to justify their liberal perspective.
> 
> *The pope was giving an interview and not speaking ex cathedra.
> 
> I see no evidence  that he issued a papal letter on the issue. *
> 
> *"Yet it added that “those involved in prostitution who are H.I.V. positive and who seek to diminish the risk of contagion by the use of a condom may be taking the first step in respecting the life of another even if the evil of prostitution remains in all its gravity*.” Basically this is saying a first step still does not replace the evil and gravity of the situation. It's still a grave evil so none of it can be sanctioned.
> 
> Therefore, Boeslager was acting contrary to church teaching and deserved to be sacked. My hope is that the resignation of Festing is not accepted by the council.




Two Popes in...maybe it's time to issue a papal letter on it?  Dunno.  I'm only the message bearer.  I find these issues to be very complicated regarding deadly epidemics.  For example,

https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/just-catholic/nuns-rape-and-zika-virus
_
No woman can be forced to become pregnant. Any woman can protect herself from rape and its consequences. In his definitive study, Rape Within Marriage: A Moral Analysis Delayed, *Edward J. Bayer affirms that physicians in early 1960s Congo gave women religious anovulant drugs and that their actions later found papal approval.

*_
I'm assuming there is a typo meaning, "religious women...anovulant drugs."  Why would it be okay for the nuns and not women in the general society and not now in the midst of HIV/AIDS for those who are most at risk (straying husband , living in a rape zone or state of war, etc.) that are not of religious orders?  Something is fishy.  I'm not pushing one side over the other either.


----------



## Honey Bee

kanozas said:


> Who's butting in?  Everyone pays for this site and you are free to post wherever you please    But I don't know.
> 
> OKay...found this and ahem....I wonder why they say that removing the White soldiers made matters worse?  Should have said the Belgian officers.  It was in 1960 and beyond in the Belgian Congo.  Nuns were part of the casualty of war and independence struggles.  Oh, and I wish people woul delineate countries in the continent of Africa and not say "Africa" as though it were one city/town/bled.  Argh.
> 
> https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/just-catholic/nuns-rape-and-zika-virus
> 
> Now that I've searched for this, going to post the article and highlight something curious:
> 
> *Nuns, rape, and the Zika virus*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gleyse Kelly da Silva poses for a photo Jan. 25 with her daughter, Maria Giovanna, who has microcephaly, in Recife, Brazil. (CNS photo/Ueslei Marcelino, Reuters)
> Phyllis Zagano   |  Feb. 24, 2016  Just Catholic
> 
> PrintemailPDF
> Here are the facts: The Zika virus, named for a tropical African forest, has a 65-year history of human infection. First discovered in Ugandan monkeys, Zika is transmitted both by mosquitos and by sexual contact. It has been linked recently to birth defects in the poorest regions of northern Brazil, where one percent of newborns are microcephalic.
> 
> That is why Pope Francis, during his plane ride back from Mexico recently, was talking about raped nuns in Africa and contraception.
> 
> The pope's comment about those missionary women religious in the former Belgian Congo was real. Within of week of Congo's June 30, 1960, declaration of independence, the army threatened mutiny. Its officers were white Belgians; its enlisted men were black Congolese. Removing the white officers only made matters worse, and within weeks 25,000 Belgians fled the country.
> 
> The missionaries -- men and women -- stayed. They were in grave danger, but they stayed to serve the poor.
> 
> Here is what the Belgian Government Information Center wrote about some mid-July 1960 attacks: " ... the nuns ... were put in jail ... Negro soldiers attacked one nun and after a fierce struggle, raped her. Later, they attacked the second nun. Two men trampled her under foot."  *[Evidentally, this was a 1960's report in White-man 1960's language   SMH]*
> 
> 
> 
> Explore Pope Francis’ apostolic exhortation on the family. Download our FREE study guide.
> 
> And it continued for years.
> 
> The current dust up is over whether some or all of the remaining women religious were appropriately given contraceptives.
> 
> They were.
> 
> Why?
> 
> No woman can be forced to become pregnant. Any woman can protect herself from rape and its consequences. In his definitive study, _Rape Within Marriage_: _A Moral Analysis Delayed_, Edward J. Bayer affirms that physicians in early 1960s Congo gave women religious anovulant drugs and that their actions later found papal approval.
> 
> *Bayer talks about much more. He states that when a married woman clearly should not bear a child -- whether due to disease or illness or other (presumably temporary) condition -- she may in effect "protect" herself if her husband is unwilling to cooperate.*
> 
> That is:* No woman needs to become pregnant against her will and, especially, women may protect themselves from rape and its possible consequences.
> 
> 
> The overall moral analysis is far more refined than cases of raped missionaries or the wives of drunken husbands. The overall moral analysis is one of common sense.*
> 
> So what about Zika? Governments around the world are urging those infected and those at risk of infection not to begin pregnancies. Pope Francis' spokesman has clarified the papal plane talk, and recalled Pope Benedict XVI's suggestion that AIDS carriers use condoms to prevent disease.
> 
> Now, both Francis and the bishops in the affected countries have said abortion is not the answer. But those same bishops in the affected countries have not taught the common sense solution to women whose only means of avoiding pregnancy is contraception.
> 
> So, where does all this leave the poor women of Central and South America, now at risk of seriously complicated pregnancies and births? Remember, they are poor. Can missionaries provide these women some protection? Will they? And, what will it be? The so-called "pill" was U.S. Food and Drug Administration-approved for contraceptive use in 1960. To this day its side effects -- blood clots, heart attack, stroke, depression, weight gain -- are downplayed by big pharma.
> 
> The final answer is an end to Zika. The intermediate steps are fraught with danger. For women.
> 
> [Phyllis Zagano is senior research associate-in-residence at Hofstra University in Hempstead, N.Y., currently a visiting Fulbright Specialist at the Waterford Institute of Technology, Ireland. She will speak May 6, 2016, at the University of St. Michael's College, Toronto and Sept. 24, 2016 at The Catholic University of America, Washington, D.C. Her books include _Sacred Silence: Daily Meditations for Lent_ and _In the Image of Christ: Essays on Being Catholic and Female_.]
> 
> *Editor's note:* We can send you an email alert every time Phyllis Zagano's column, Just Catholic, is posted. Go to this page and follow directions: Email alert sign-up.
> 
> Zika virus


Thank you for being so gracious. I dint want my heathen vibes to contaminate y'all lol so I lurk over here but never post. But Catholicism is of particular interest to me.

Anyway, thanks for looking it up for me. I didn't know how to search the whole continent.  So let me ask you, does the Church _generally_ allow abortion in cases of rape? Or was this a one time thing?


----------



## kanozas

Honey Bee said:


> Thank you for being so gracious. I dint want my heathen vibes to contaminate y'all lol so I lurk over here but never post. But Catholicism is of particular interest to me.
> 
> Anyway, thanks for looking it up for me. I didn't know how to search the whole continent.  So let me ask you, does the Church _generally_ allow abortion in cases of rape? Or was this a one time thing?




No, not at all.  This was prevention of pregnancy.  Abortion is after conception and the Church maintains that all life is sacred in all its forms, from zygote til natural death and every place in-between.  As @Belle Du Jour maintained, it was an interview and not issued as an infallible statement on doctrine.  

As for heathen vibes contaminating, gurl, I'm Catholic.  There are no heathen vibes that are going to destroy me.  I don't believe in seeing a demon around every corner.  That's bull lol.  I know not everyone has had a good experience with where they are but I've been lucky.  Usually, I stay far away from the religious fanatics.


----------



## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> @Galadriel or @Lucia would love your thoughts on this.



Catching up on this, @Belle Du Jour someone was handing out condoms?


----------



## kanozas

Galadriel said:


> Catching up on this, @Belle Du Jour someone was handing out condoms?




Yes, in the OP is the article.  And I betcha that he was doing so with the previous statements from Pope Francis and earlier from Pope Benedict XVI Emeritus.  What I'm looking for is WHY he was doing it but that is my guess.  We cannot take things into our own hands but I do understand the previous statements from our most recent Popes in light of the present epidemic.  Wish we had a canon lawyer in our midst to elaborate on this. Hmmm, you know, I know of one...going to ask him and see what he says.  If I can copy and paste the reply, I'll do so.


----------



## Galadriel

kanozas said:


> Yes, in the OP is the article.  And I betcha that he was doing so with the previous statements from Pope Francis and earlier from Pope Benedict XVI Emeritus.  What I'm looking for is WHY he was doing it but that is my guess.  We cannot take things into our own hands but I do understand the previous statements from our most recent Popes in light of the present epidemic.  Wish we had a canon lawyer in our midst to elaborate on this. Hmmm, you know, I know of one...going to ask him and see what he says.  If I can copy and paste the reply, I'll do so.



I'll do some research as well.


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## Belle Du Jour

My suspicion is this has something to do with the fact the Cardinal Burke is the spiritual sovereign of the order and Pope Francis is upset because Burke is one of the four bishops involved in the dubia regarding the ambiguity of Amoris Laetetia. Francis is, IMO, being petty. But I'm sure more will be coming out. Pray for Cardinal Burke who is being persecuted by several of his brother bishops for being orthodox!


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## kanozas

Thank you for expanding the discussion.  This is a Wikipedia, granted, but that doesn't preclude any value...depends.  Reading to understand.  Note, this article is not finished:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amoris_laetitia


[Excerpt]
*Initial reactions*
Initial reactions highlighted several of the issues of contemporary morality and church practice that had proved contentious during the synods' presentations and discussions, surrounding access to communion, divorce, sexual mores, and pastoral practice.

Since the release of _Amoris laetitia_, various media outlets reported what many were calling a potential change in Church teaching on the ability of remarried and civilly divorced to receive the Eucharist, to which they said Francis alluded in footnote no. 351,[12] which reads (with footnoted body text in italics):

_Because forms of conditioning and mitigating factors, it is possible that in an objective situation of sin – which may not be subjectively culpable, or fully such – a person can be living in God’s grace, can love and can also grow in the life of grace and charity, while receiving the Church’s help to this end._

351. In certain cases, this can include the help of the sacraments. Hence, “I want to remind priests that the confessional must not be a torture chamber, but rather an encounter with the Lord’s mercy” (Apostolic Exhortation _Evangelii Gaudium_ [24 November 2013], 44: AAS 105 [2013], 1038). I would also point out that the Eucharist “is not a prize for the perfect, but a powerful medicine and nourishment for the weak” (_ibid_., 47: 1039).[13]

Reports addressed the apparent contradictions between this footnote and Pope John Paul II's apostolic exhortations _Familiaris consortio_ and _Reconciliatio et paenitentiae._ When asked in a press conference how Francis' work related to _Familiaris consortio_, which states that remarried divorcees must live "as brother and sister" in order to take communion, Cardinal Schönborn said that the former builds on the earlier work: "there is no change, but there is development".[11] Some traditionalists, notably Kazhakstani Bishop Athanasius Schneider and British advocacy group Voice of the Family, have criticized Francis' exhortation. Voice of the Family has called on him to "recognise the grave errors in the recently published Apostolic Exhortation, Amoris Laetitia, in particular those sections which will lead to the desecration of the Holy Eucharist and to the harming of our children, and to withdraw the Apostolic Exhortation with immediate effect."[12] Edward N. Peters, a referendary of the Apostolic Signatura, wrote that _Amoris laetitia_ "is not a legislative document, it contains no legislative or authentic interpretative language, and it does not discuss Canon 915." So, the canon was not changed: Catholics in irregular marriages should not receive Eucharist.[14][15]


____________________________


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## kanozas

Full text and explanation of the Cardinal's dubia on Amoris Laetitia
http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edwa...tes-of-cardinals-questions-on-amoris-laetitia


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Unfortunately, the pope is refusing to clarify the questionable statements in AL.  And several bishops ARE running with it and using it as an opportunity to push their liberal agenda. One Cardinal recently said the laity should determine whether they should receive.    Some bishops are recognizing same sex "marriages" and giving these people access to the Sacrament. The real issue is people don't believe in the Real Presence or don't understand the reality of the Eucharist.


----------



## kanozas

And that wasn't the intent of his document at all, as I see it.  Those questionable  bishops would always have been perched to strike anyway.  What seems  to be an initiative  of some sort to come to even deeper understanding of mercy  and  the sacrament of penance  is being dismissed and taken out of context from fear of positive change as well as being abused from those with evil ulterior motive against orthodoxy.  But I think the pre-annulment days might have produced the same hysteria.  Plenty think we should not grant them.  I don't believe that we'll strike down sacramental marriage at all.  Maybe there is some middle ground, who knows?


----------



## kanozas

For information for those interested:


http://www.stmaron.org/multimedia/

A Conversation between Bishop Gregory Mansour, Bishop of the Eparchy of Saint Maron of Brooklyn and Father Boniface Hicks, OSB, a Benedictine monk from Saint Vincent Archabbey, in Latrobe, Penn. Bishop Gregory Mansour and Father Boniface discuss* Amoris Laetitia.*

.


----------



## kanozas

Is it any coincidence that Pence is a defector from orthodoxy?  He didn't even shake the Black man's nor his Vice President's  hand at the inauguration.  That was a public display of uncharitable arrogance...so unbecoming of a leader.  He said he found the truth.  You work your way up to orthodoxy, not backwards.  For those who've never had it,  they are fine in the truth that is presented to them.  He had it and threw it away?  Now it's evident that his high social club is a front for name-it-claim-it heresy.


----------



## kanozas

............................


----------



## Farida

Do some Catholics worship idols? Yes. 

But there is a distinction for many. If I saw you look at a picture of a loved one; kiss it; get mad if someone touched it - I would not  think you are actually in love with the picture, that you have a physical relationship with the picture. It is merely a representation of the person you love.

If a Catholic or person kisses a rosary for what it represents...for loving God..not because the person believes the rosary IS God. That is not idolatry.

But some people blur the lines and some cultures also infiltrate religion. The Catholics I saw in Kenya did not treat Mary the same way I see the Mexicans and Guadalupe...


----------



## kanozas

It would hard to know what's in someone's heart if you are another individual and thereby, it's difficult to judge whether someone in veneration is "worshiping" an image as a g-d.


----------



## kanozas

Placing this here:   Catholicism is not worshiping Baal of Babylon, neither is she, the Church of Jesus, desecrating the Sabbath.  Jesus, the Messiah, is the L-rd of the Sabbath.


*Matthew 12New International Version (NIV)*
*Jesus Is Lord of the Sabbath*
12 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”

3 He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? 6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’a]">[a] you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

9 Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, 10 and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus, they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”

11 He said to them, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12 How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”

13 Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. 14 But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.

*God’s Chosen Servant*
15 Aware of this, Jesus withdrew from that place. A large crowd followed him, and he healed all who were ill. 16 He warned them not to tell others about him. 17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah:

18 “Here is my servant whom I have chosen,
    the one I love, in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him,
    and he will proclaim justice to the nations.
19 He will not quarrel or cry out;
    no one will hear his voice in the streets.
20 A bruised reed he will not break,
    and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out,
till he has brought justice through to victory.
21     In his name the nations will put their hope.”b]">[b]

*Jesus and Beelzebul*
22 Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. 23 All the people were astonished and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”

24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”

25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

29 “Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.

30 “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. 31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

33 “Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. 35 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. 36 But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

*The Sign of Jonah*
38 Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.”

39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here. 42 The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, and now something greater than Solomon is here.

43 “When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44 Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45 Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.”

*Jesus’ Mother and Brothers*
46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”


----------



## kanozas

There is no coercion and a church would have to vote to make such changes, I'm sure (within their own ranks).  Nobody has to be anything he doesn't want to be but in the event of unity with the RCC and some Protestant Churches, the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will still be the one worshiped and in the blood of Jesus, the Messiah, in the Holy Spirit.  This is open dialogue and there is no forced covering together but the call to unity is from Christ Himself.  We were one, holy, catholic (the meaning is "universal faith" and in  Christ) and apostolic (passed down by the Apostles).   Approaching unity is not forced and there are many obstacles in the way as we all iron them out.  Who knows, many things might transform from what we see today from all of us.  But here is an address that I heard on the radio yesterday in his actual words on the matter.  I pray that this is taken in the manner in which it is given, that being of "information" to explain this ecumenical opportunity and it is neither an attempt to proselytize that that, in itself, is sinful as it does not recognize nor respect the free will of people, neither does it uphold their human dignity:

https://zenit.org/articles/popes-address-to-ecumenical-delegation-from-germany/
* Pope’s Address to Ecumenical Delegation From Germany *


“Despite these questions that are still open, we must not be resigned but rather concentrate on the next step possible”

February 6, 2017ZENIT StaffPapal Texts



Pope in Paul VI Hall: Copyright Photo.Va - Archives L'Osservatore Romano)

At 10 o’clock this morning, Pope Francis received in audience an Ecumenical delegation of the Evangelical Church of Germany. Here is a translation of the Pope’s address to those taking part in the meeting.

* * *

Dear brothers and sisters,

I am pleased to welcome you and I greet you warmly. I thank the regional Bishop Bedford-Strohm for his kind words – _ein Mann mit Feuer im Herzen _– and I am happy for Cardinal Marx’s presence: that the President of the German Episcopal Conference accompanies the delegation of the Evangelical Church in Germany is fruit of a long-standing collaboration and an expression of a matured ecumenical relation over the years. I hope you will go ahead on this blessed path of fraternal communion, proceeding with courage and determination towards an ever fuller unity.* We have the same Baptism: we must walk together, tirelessly!*

It is significant that, on the occasion of the 500th anniversary of the Reformation, Evangelical and Catholic Christians take up the occasion, of the common commemoration of historical events of the past, to put Christ again at the center of their relations. In fact, “the question of God,” on “how there can be a merciful God” was the “profound passion, the mainspring of Luther’s life and his entire journey” (cf. Benedict XVI, _Meeting with the Representatives of the Evangelical Church in Germany, _September 23, 2011). What animated and made the Reformers anxious was, at bottom, to point out the way to Christ. It is what must be at heart for us also today, after having undertaken again, thanks be to God, a common path. *This year of commemoration offers us the opportunity to take a further step forward, looking at the past without rancor, but according to Christ and in communion with Him, to propose again to the men and women of our time the radical novelty of Jesus, God’s limitless mercy: precisely what the Reformers at their time wished to stimulate. The fact that their call to renewal sparked developments that led to divisions among Christians was certainly tragic. Believers no longer felt themselves brothers and sisters in the faith, but adversaries and competitors: for too long they have fueled hostility and were avid in fights, fomented by political and power interests, sometimes without having the least scruples in using violence against one another, brothers against brothers. Today, instead, we thank God because finally, “we have put down all that is a burden,” and “we run”, fraternally, “with perseverance on the course that is before us, keeping our gaze fixed on Jesus” (Hebrews 12:1-2).*

*I am grateful to you because, with this gaze you have the intention of approaching together, with humility and frankness, a past that grieves us, and of sharing soon an important gesture of penance and reconciliation: an ecumenical function entitled “To Heal the Memory — To Witness Jesus Christ.” Catholics and Evangelicals in Germany, can thus respond in prayer to the strong call that you perceive together in the country of origin of the Reformation: *to purify the memory in God to be renewed interiorly and sent by the Spirit to take Jesus to the men of today. With this sign and with other ecumenical initiatives planned this year – such as the joint pilgrimage to the Holy Land, the joint Biblical congress to present together the new translations of the Bible and the Ecumenical Day dedicated to the social responsibility of Christians – you have in mind to give a concrete configuration to the “Feast of Christ” that, on the occasion of the commemoration of the Reformation, you intend to celebrate together. May the rediscovery of the common source of faith, the healing of the memory in prayer and in charity, and concrete collaboration in spreading the Gospel and serving brothers be impulses to proceed still more speedily on the way.

*It is the reality of the one Baptism that makes us brothers and sisters and in the common listening to the Spirit, we are able to appreciate, in a now reconciled diversity, the spiritual and theological gifts that we received from the Reformation. *Last October 31 at Lund,* I thanked the Lord for this and asked forgiveness for the past; for the future, I wish to confirm our call to witness the Gospel together and to continue on the path to full unity.* Doing so together, the desire is also born to advance of new ways. Increasingly we learn to ask ourselves: can we share this initiative with our brothers and sisters in Christ? Can we undertake together another stretch of the way?

The differences in questions of faith and morality that still exist, remain challenges on the path towards visible unity, for which our faithful long. Spouses that belong to different confessions feel the pain especially. We must commit ourselves wisely, with insistent prayer and all our strength, to overcome the still existing obstacles, intensifying the theological dialogue and reinforcing collaboration between us, especially in the service of those that suffer greatly and in the protection of the threatened creation.* Jesus’ urgent call to unity (cf. John 17:21) comes to us, as well as the entire human family, in a period in which grave lacerations and new forms of exclusion and marginalization are being experienced. Because of this too, our responsibility is great. Great!*

In the hope that this meeting will ultimately enhance communion between us, *I ask the Holy Spirit, architect and renewer of unity, to fortify us on our common way with the consolation that comes from God (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:4) and to indicate to us His prophetic and audacious ways. *I invoke from my heart upon all of you and your communities God’s blessing and I ask you, please, to remember me in prayer. I thank you so much and would like to invite you now to pray the Our Father together.

[Original text: Italian]


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Farida said:


> Do some Catholics worship idols? Yes.
> 
> But there is a distinction for many. If I saw you look at a picture of a loved one; kiss it; get mad if someone touched it - I would not  think you are actually in love with the picture, that you have a physical relationship with the picture. It is merely a representation of the person you love.
> 
> If a Catholic or person kisses a rosary for what it represents...for loving God..not because the person believes the rosary IS God. That is not idolatry.
> 
> But some people blur the lines and some cultures also infiltrate religion. The Catholics I saw in Kenya did not treat Mary the same way I see the Mexicans and Guadalupe...



I would be careful of accusing others of worshiping idols. (Actually most idols are not made by hands... ). I'm sure God sees the heart and understands that a person touching or kissing a statue does not think the actual statue is God. It merely raises the person's consciousness to Heaven. I bow my head when the crucifix passes by me in the procession. Clearly I'm not identifying the gold and wooden cross as my God but honoring Christ's ultimate sacrifice.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Unless you eat His flesh and drink His blood you have no life in you: https://churchpop.com/2015/05/14/what-changed-this-protestants-mind-about-the-eucharist/


----------



## Lucia

Source:  http://bit.ly/2lC0yj6

*When Were Joseph and Mary Married? | Catholic Answers*
When the Archangel Gabriel visited Mary and declared unto her that she was called to be the Mother of God, as we see recorded in Luke 1, her response would become the cause of the spilling of a whole lot of ink over the centuries: “How shall this happen, since I know not man?” (v. 34, Douay Rheims, Confraternity Edition).

For Catholics this is an indication of Mary’s vow of perpetual virginity. It’s really quite simple. If Mary and Joseph were just an ordinary couple embarking on a normal married life together, there would be no reason to ask the question. Mary would have known very well how it could be that the angel was saying she would have a baby. As St. Augustine said it:

Had she intended to know man, she would not have been amazed. Her amazement is a sign of the vow (Sermon 225, 2).

But Protestants do not see it as quite so simple. Reformed Apologist James White gives us an example of the most common objection to our “Catholic” view of this text:

Nothing about a vow is mentioned in Scripture. Mary’s response to the angel was based upon the fact that it was obvious that the angel was speaking about an immediate conception, and since Mary was at that time only engaged to Joseph, but not married, _at that time _she could not possibly conceive in a natural manner, since she did not “know a man” (_Mary—Another Redeemer_? p. 31.).

Among the errors in just these two sentences (I counted four), there are two that stand out for our purpose here.

*Error #1: Mr. White claims Mary was engaged to St. Joseph. *

There was no such thing as _engagement _(as it is understood in modern Western culture) in ancient Israel. The text says Mary was “betrothed” or “espoused” (Gr.—_emnesteumene_), not engaged. _Betrothal_, in ancient Israel, would be akin to the ratification of a marriage (when a couple exchanges vows in the presence of an official witness of the Church) in Catholic theology. That ratified marriage is then consummated—in the normal course—on the couple’s wedding night. So when Luke 1:27 says Mary was _betrothed_, it means they were _already married_ at the time of the annunciation. If this were an ordinary marriage, St. Joseph would then have had a husband’s right to the marriage bed—the consummation.

This simple truth proves devastating to Mr. White’s (and the Protestant's) argument. If Joseph and Mary were married—and they were—and they were planning the normal course, Mary would have known full and well how she could and would have a baby. As St. Augustine said, the question reveals the fact that this was not just your average, ordinary marriage. They were not planning to consummate their union.

*Betrothed = Married?*

For those who are not convinced “betrothed” equals “married” for Mary and Joseph; fortunately, the Bible makes this quite clear. If we move forward in time from the “annunciation” of Luke 1 to Matthew 1 and St. Joseph’s discovery of Mary’s pregnancy, we find Matthew 1:18 clearly stating Mary and Joseph were still “betrothed.” Yet, when Joseph found out Mary was “with child,” he determined he would “send her away privately” (vs. 19). The Greek verb translated in the RSVCE _to send away_ is _apolusai_, which means _divorce_. *Why would Joseph have to divorce Mary if they were only engaged?   *

Further, the angel then tells Joseph:

Do not fear to take Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit . . . When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took his wife (vss. 20-24).

Notice, Joseph took Mary “his wife,” indicating both St. Matthew and an archangel considered this couple married even though they were said to be “_betrothed_.” “Betrothed” is obviously much more than “engaged.”

Moreover, months later we find Joseph and Mary travelling together to Bethlehem to be enrolled as a family according to the decree of Caesar Augustus, just before Jesus would be born. They were obviously married; yet, even then, they were still said to be “betrothed” (see Luke 2:5).

So let's recap what have we have uncovered. First, Joseph had already taken his espoused “wife” into his home and was caring for her. Second, Scripture reveals him to be her legal husband and to have travelled with Mary to be enrolled with her as a lawfully wedded couple and family. Third, she was called St. Joseph’s “wife” by the angel of the Lord… and yet, they were still referred to as _betrothed_.

Referring to Mary and Joseph as “engaged” in the face of all of this evidence would be like calling a modern couple at their wedding reception “engaged” because they have yet to consummate their marriage.

Once the fact that Mary and Joseph were already married _at the time of the annunciation _is understood, Mary’s “How shall this happen…” comes more into focus. Think about it: If you were a woman who had just been married (your marriage was “ratified,” but not consummated) and someone at your reception said—or “prophesied”—that you were going to have a baby—that would not really be all that much of a surprise. That is the normal course of events. You marry, consummate the union, and babies come along. You certainly would _not _ask the question, “Gee, how is this going to happen?”  It is in this context of Mary having been betrothed, then, that her question does not make sense… unless, of course, you understand she had a vow of virginity. Then, it makes perfect sense.

*Error #2: Mr. White claimed, “…it was obvious that the angel was speaking about an immediate conception.” And, closely related to this, Mr. White then claimed Mary asked the question, "How shall this happen...?" because she knew "at that time she could not conceive in a natural manner?"*

Really? It was _obvious_?

There is not a single word in this text or anywhere else in Scripture that indicates Mary knew her conception was going to be immediate and via supernatural means. That’s why she asked the question, "How shall this happen...?" It appears she did _not _know the answer. How could she? Why would it ever enter into her mind? There would be no way apart from a revelation from God that she _could _have known. And most importantly, according to the text, the angel did not reveal the fact that Mary would conceive immediately and supernaturally until _after _Mary asked the question.

But let's suppose Mary was "engaged" as Mr. White claims. There would be even less reason to believe the conception would be immediate and somehow supernatural then there would be if Mary had a vow of virginity (though there’s really no reason to think this in either scenario). An "engaged" woman would have naturally assumed that when she and St. Joseph would later consummate their marriage, they could expect a very special surprise from God. They were going to conceive the Messiah. There would be no reason to think anything else. And there would be no reason to ask the question.

One final thought: When Mary asked the question, "How _shall _this happen, since I do not know man," the verb _to be_ (Gr.-_estai_) is in the _future tense. _There is nothing here that would indicate she was thinking of the immediate. The future tense here most likely refers to… the future. The question was not how she could conceive _immediately_. The question was how she could conceive _ever._ The angel answered that question for her.

ETA:
betrothed in the Bible

to promise "by one's truth." Men and women were betrothed when they were engaged to be married.  This usually took place a year or more before marriage. *From the time of betrothal the woman was regarded as the lawful wife of the man to whom she was betrothed* (Deut. 28:30; Judg. 14:2, 8; Matt.1:18-21). The term is figuratively employed of thespiritual connection between God and his people (Hos.2:19, 20).



Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary
betrothed. (n.d.). _Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary_. Retrieved March 18, 2017 from Dictionary.com website http://www.dictionary.com/browse/betrothed


----------



## Belle Du Jour

The mysteries of Our Lady are sadly hidden to those who refuse to allow her to be "blessed" for all generations as she proclaimed. Our Lady was immaculately conceived, remained a virgin after marriage, was assumed into heaven after her death and is the Queen Mother, interceding at the right hand of her son Jesus, like Bathsheba interceded with Solomon and like Esther interceded with Xerxes. Our Lady is throughout the Bible from Genesis (the woman who will crush Satan's head) to Revelations (the woman clothed with the sun). As the bible says, who has ears to hear, let him hear. Amen.


----------



## Lucia

Genesis 3:19 















Ash Wednesday


----------



## kanozas

The Fifth Luminous Mystery LINK

THE INSTITUTION OF THE EUCHARIST


I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.
Jesus took bread, blessed it: "Take and eat, this is My Body."
Taking the wine: "This cup is the new covenant in my Blood, shed for you."
At that eucharistic meal, Jesus celebrated the first Mass.
At every Mass the sacrifice of Calvary is made present.
At the Last Supper Jesus instituted the sacrament of Holy Orders to perpetuate this sacrifice.
"Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him."
The Eucharist is a sacrifice inasmuch as it is offered up, and a sacrament inasmuch as it is received.
In the Mass we offer ourselves to God, and God gives himself to us.
The Mass will be fruitful in the measure of our surrender to the Father.
Spiritual Fruit: *Love of our Eucharistic Lord

---------
*
Revisiting this, it reminds me of discussions about being bored in Mass or doubting it's true or effective etc.  "The Mass will be fruitful in the measure of our surrender to the Father"  because "the Eucharist is a sacrifice inasmuch as it is offered up, and a sacrament inasmuch as it is received."  This is profound.  Jesus gave it all, the Father sent it all, the Holy Spirit is with us and leads us to truth.  If one rejects this gift, it is not because there is some inherent fault in Jesus' Church.  It is because one hasn't received.  As much as you put in, G-d gives more back to you.


----------



## kanozas

*https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/10/world/europe/pope-francis-married-priests.html?_r=0*

*Pope Francis Signals Openness to Ordaining Married Men in Some Cases*
By JASON HOROWITZMARCH 10, 2017






Pope Francis has pointed out that an element of married clergy already exists within the church, notably Eastern Rite Catholics. Credit Andrew Medichini/Associated Press
Pope Francis this week signaled receptiveness to appeals from bishops in the remote and overwhelmed corners of the Roman Catholic Church to combat a deepening shortage of priests by ordaining married men who are already committed to the church.

In an interview with a German newspaper, the pope made clear that he was not advocating an end to celibacy for current priests or those aspiring to join the clergy. But his seeming openness about the prospect of ordaining married men in places hardest hit by a dearth of priests was unusually explicit and brought the issue to the forefront.

“We need to think about whether ‘viri probati’ could be a possibility,” Francis, using the Latin phrase for such “tested” men, said in an interview with the newspaper, Die Zeit. “If so, we would need to determine what duties they could undertake, for example, in remote communities.”

For years, the pope has noted that an element of married clergy already exists in the church. Eastern Rite priests in union with Rome have married for centuries. In 1980, John Paul II created a provision by which some married Protestant ministers who converted to Catholicism could maintain their ministry. And historically, priests in the first centuries of the church were free to marry

Continue reading the main story
*Related Coverage*




* Pope Francis Says Ban on Female Priests Is Likely to Endure NOV. 1, 2016 *



graphic
* Pope Francis’ Race Against Time to Reshape the Church NOV. 18, 2016 *



* Pope Francis Extends Priests’ Ability to Forgive Abortion NOV. 21, 2016 *



* Vatican Museums Get First Female Director DEC. 21, 2016 *



* Ten Centuries Later, a Pope and Knights Do Battle JAN. 28, 2017 *

But monastic influences at the turn of the millennium led to the adoption of a celibacy requirement at the First Lateran Council of 1123, and that tradition has held ever since. It is not doctrine or dogma, but instead a code of canon law that essentially reasons that priests unburdened by spouses or children are both more reflective of Christ and devoted to pastoral demands.

Francis, who has made clear that he sees little possibility for allowing women to be priests, called the vocation crisis an “enormous problem.”

The issue is less a question of theology than arithmetic.

In the United States, there are now about 2,500 Catholics per priest, compared with 851 per priest in 1972, according to the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate, which is affiliated with Georgetown University.

The chasms are far wider in Africa, Asia and Latin America, where the faithful can go months without access to a priest and married deacons are increasingly called on to conduct the business of parishes. In Brazil, according to the center, there are roughly 8,000 Catholics per priest.

The Rev. Thomas J. Reese, a Jesuit priest and senior analyst for The National Catholic Reporter, said that in the face of such a crisis, the church had to decide whether upholding the celibacy rule was worth depriving the faithful of Mass and confession, which can only be performed by priests. He said that while the pontiff’s most recent predecessors had hoped for a turnaround in the diminishing numbers of priests, Francis seemed eager to push the issue.

“This is now an open topic in the church today,” Father Reese said, “whereas under John Paul II or Benedict, you could not talk about this.”

*Morning Briefing: Europe*
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Before being chosen as pope in 2013, Francis — who was then Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio — said in remarks included in the book “On Heaven and Earth” that clerical celibacy was “a matter of discipline, not of faith. It can change.”

In 2014, as pope, he took a step that made it easier for married men to serve as priests, when he lifted a ban imposed in 1929 that had prohibited Eastern Catholic bishops from ordaining married men to the priesthood in Australia, Canada and the United States.

Until Francis made that change, the Eastern Rite churches could ordain married men only in their own territories.

Also in 2014, Bishop Erwin Krautler, of Xingu, Brazil, a territory where only 27 priests served 700,000 Catholics, brought up the issue with Francis. The bishop told an Austrian newspaper at the time that the pope had told him such a change could not be done by Francis in Rome, but that “local bishops, who are best acquainted with the needs of our faithful, should be ‘corajudos,’ that is ‘courageous’ in Spanish, and make concrete suggestions.”

Soon after, in 2015, Bishop Leo O’Reilly of Kilmore, Ireland, said that the pope’s message to be creative in confronting priest shortages had led him to establish a commission on the possibility of ordaining married men. “I think the other bishops would be open to the idea,” he told the Catholic Herald newspaper.

Veteran observers of Francis have noted that the pope appears especially willing to broach the issue.

In August, the papal biographer Austen Ivereigh wrote on the Catholic news website Crux that “Francis has given many signals of his willingness to open up the question of ordaining married men, even encouraging local Churches to put forward proposals.”

Any formal discussion of changing the rule would surely engender opposition among a small but intense group of canon lawyers and traditionalists upset about Francis’ flexibility on issues of church law. In the meantime, the 80-year-old pope seems to be using the media to plant the idea directly with the faithful.

“The glacier is moving forward, but there are forces that want to move it back,” said Paul Bumbar, a former priest and the co-secretary of Corpus, an organization founded more than 40 years ago by men who had left the priesthood to marry. “And Francis has made it clear that he does not want to stop. I just pray his health holds out.”


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## Lucia

This is a tricky subject, ordaining married men or allowing Preists to marry.  There's a lot to consider:

Would all Preists then just jump at the chance leaving us with no unmarried Preists?

Would it really create an upward surge  in the number seminarians actually taking their vows to be Preists?

How will these married Preists balance the pull and responsibility of a wife, children, Priesthood and serving the parish all at the same time?

What about a celebrate preist being completely devoted to God and his works?
How will this affect high level preist work like exorcists?

(Who can't have small children or pregnant wives at home when doing their work because women and children especially pregnant women are targets for demons being cast out)

Does that mean no more exorcists ? even though there's been an uptake in demonic activity in the last ten years.

Does that then open the door to allowing homosexual marriages and relationships?
Where will the line be drawn, certain orders or types of Preists like exorcists, or high level scholars, bishops cardinals and popes must be celibate?

Could this be a deception of the enemy to open spiritual doors into the church and cause more havoc trying to destroy the Catholic Church? 

And I'm not a canon expert or biblical scholar and I thought of all these questions.


----------



## Lucia

Farida said:


> Do some Catholics worship idols? Yes.
> 
> But there is a distinction for many. If I saw you look at a picture of a loved one; kiss it; get mad if someone touched it - I would not  think you are actually in love with the picture, that you have a physical relationship with the picture. It is merely a representation of the person you love.
> 
> If a Catholic or person kisses a rosary for what it represents...for loving God..not because the person believes the rosary IS God. That is not idolatry.
> 
> But some people blur the lines and some cultures also infiltrate religion. The Catholics I saw in Kenya did not treat Mary the same way I see the Mexicans and Guadalupe...




I also don't see Anglos in some parts of the US venerate Mary with pomp and circumstance as Italians, Brazilians, Mexicans or latins in general do. I don't think that means certain groups are deluded into thinking that Mary is a god, or that they are "worshipping" her.  To clarify: It's just their way of venerating, honoring, pay homage to her, but we don't adore or worship her.

Articles blogs explaining this better

http://bit.ly/2mZeuTw


http://bit.ly/2mCpRgF




Belle Du Jour said:


> I would be careful of accusing others of worshiping idols. (Actually most idols are not made by hands... ). I'm sure God sees the heart and understands that a person touching or kissing a statue does not think the actual statue is God. *It merely raises the person's consciousness to Heaven. I bow my head when the crucifix passes by me in the procession. Clearly I'm not identifying the gold and wooden cross as my God but honoring Christ's ultimate sacrifice.*



Yes this. ^^ well said!  Power and Money are some of the biggest idols of all time among other things.


----------



## kanozas

http://chnetwork.org/

The Coming Home Network   
Marcus Grodi


"How Far Would You Follow Jesus?"


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Lucia said:


> This is a tricky subject, ordaining married men or allowing Preists to marry.  There's a lot to consider:
> 
> Would all Preists then just jump at the chance leaving us with no unmarried Preists?
> 
> Would it really create an upward surge  in the number seminarians actually taking their vows to be Preists?
> 
> How will these married Preists balance the pull and responsibility of a wife, children, Priesthood and serving the parish all at the same time?
> 
> What about a celebrate preist being completely devoted to God and his works?
> How will this affect high level preist work like exorcists?
> 
> (Who can't have small children or pregnant wives at home when doing their work because women and children especially pregnant women are targets for demons being cast out)
> 
> Does that mean no more exorcists ? even though there's been an uptake in demonic activity in the last ten years.
> 
> Does that then open the door to allowing homosexual marriages and relationships?
> Where will the line be drawn, certain orders or types of Preists like exorcists, or high level scholars, bishops cardinals and popes must be celibate?
> 
> Could this be a deception of the enemy to open spiritual doors into the church and cause more havoc trying to destroy the Catholic Church?
> 
> And I'm not a canon expert or biblical scholar and I thought of all these questions.



I strongly believe in a celibate priesthood. They are married already--to the church. No way they could be good husbands and fathers and serve the laity. Hoping this was just another Francis-ism taken out of context.


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## Lucia




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## kanozas

Lucia said:


>




Agnus Dei , Samuel Barber

I've always loved it  in many of it's renditions.  You should also try the Cleveland Quarter's version.  It's just plain LOVELY!!!!!


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## kanozas

*https://iveminorseminary.org/our-patron

Our Patron: Saint Jose Sanchez Del Rio*

*CLICK HERE TO READ ABOUT HIS CANONIZATION!*

        Saint Jose Luis Sanchez Del Rio was born in Sahuayo, Michoacan (Mexico), on March 28, 1913—his parents were Macario Sanchez and María del Río. At the age of 13 , Jose begged God that he too might be able to die in defense of his Catholic faith. In response to the bitter persecution of the Catholic Church by the government of Plutarco Calles, a movement of Catholics called the “Cristeros” rose up in defense of the Faith. Jose Luis Sanchez del Rio told his mother, “In order to go to Heaven, we have to go to war.”  

    He begged his mother to permit him to accompany the
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Cristeros, saying "*Never has it been so easy to obtain Heaven!*"  Eventually she allowed him to join the other men in his family who were going. Given his youth, it required much pleading before the Cristero general finally gave him permission to join them, albeit only as a flag bearer. Only a short while after Jose joined the Cristeros, a battle was joined between the government forces and the Cristeros in which the general’s horse was killed. The young man said to the general, *“Take my horse and save yourself. You’re the general, and what am I worth to the cause?” *The general refused at first to take the young man’s horse, but Jose insisted, and finally the general got on the horse and fled.

    When the government troops caught up to the youth, he said to them, *“You are going to take me, but I don’t surrender.”* When Jose was first captured, the government troops forced him to witness the execution of another Cristero, thinking that he would weaken in his defiance when he saw the killing. Instead, rather the opposite happened—_Jose encouraged the man,_ who while preparing to be executed was wavering in the face of death, to embrace his martyrdom, _and the man died heroically for his faith!_

     Jose was imprisoned in a town called Sahuayo (in Michoacan), in the parish church, which they were using as a jail. The local government authority, a man named Rafael Picasso, asked for a large ransom to let Jose go, because despite his age, they were going to shoot him as they did all the other Cristeros who refused to apostatize. However, Jose told his people not to offer them any money since because he wanted to go to Heaven, he would just go back to the struggle.

     The government officials encouraged Jose to write a letter to his aunt Maria Sanchez, and they told his aunt to tell Jose’s mother that she should come and pass by the church. They thought that if Jose could see his mother close-up, he would weaken in his resolve at seeing her tears, but he did not waiver. Witnesses say that his food was brought to him in a small basket, and in that food his uncle, Fr. Ignacio Sanchez, would put a consecrated Host. When he got it, he knelt there in the church, gave thanks, and then gave himself Holy Communion. People walking by the church on the street said that they could hear Jose praying the rosary and singing hymns to Our Lady—he never wavered in his prayer life while he was imprisoned.

     Picasso, the government official, had decided not only to use the parish church as a jail, but also as a chicken coop. He had a collection of fine and valuable imported fighting roosters, and had decided to house them in the church. When Jose arrived he saw the roosters running around the church and was indignant, and said, *“This is not a barnyard!”* He took them all by the neck and killed them, hanging them from a banister. According to some, Picasso had imported some of those very fine birds all the way from Canada, and this was the last straw; he was so indignant that he commanded that they execute the boy by firing squad. The soldiers noticed that Jose didn’t have any shoes on and they offered to give him some. He told them, *“Why do I need shoes? What I want is to go to Heaven.”*

Therefore, the soldiers brought Jose to be executed, and as they did so they began to strike him with the machetes they carried. Even worse, they chopped off the soles of Jose’s feet, and they forced him to walk along the rocky unpaved road to the cemetery. Instead of complaining, he shouted, *“Long live Christ the King!”* Witnesses said that the stones where Jose had trodden were all soaked in his blood, and although he moaned from the pain, he never weakened in his resolve.

    When they got to the cemetery, Jose was already covered in his own blood. The soldiers showed him the grave, and said, “This is where we are going to bury you.” The boy responded, *“That is good. I forgive all of you since we are all Christians.”* He offered them his hand and said, *“We’ll see each other in Heaven. I want you all to repent.”* Perhaps trying to work on his love for his family, the soldiers asked him what he wanted them to tell his family; his response was, *“Tell them that we will see each other in Heaven.”* Finally, the soldiers told Jose that if he would say “Death to Christ the King,” they would free him and allow him to go home to his family. His response was, *“Long live Christ the King!”* At that point they shot him. As he was still alive after that, they gave him a coup de grace to the head and he died. Some versions of his story say that Jose made the sign of the cross in the ground with his own blood before being finally shot in the head.

     Jose Luis Sanchez Del Rio was killed on February 10, 1928, and was beatified by Pope Benedict XVI on November 20, 2005.  For us, he is a constant reminder that the call to follow Christ is for all people, whether young or old.  His feast day is February 10—the day he died.

*"Never has it been so easy to obtain heaven!"*






Saint Jose Luis Sanchez del Rio, from the movie For Greater Glory


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## Lucia

http://www.youngcatholicprofessionals.org/


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## kanozas

Was listening to Catholic radio this evening in the car and the guest speaker is a convert.  He said something that just put it into a certain other perspective. Basically,  the pure truth of the Church is organized and protected by the Magisterium.  Priests and others might do something to obscure the truth a little to some others.  This I find true.  The organization is to protect, if you will, "the ark" of the faith - the pure faith and its doctrine handed down from Jesus to the Apostles.  Everything else is extraneous if you want to count sins.  Isn't that the way it is for everyone, Catholic or not?  Someone is always trying to paint a rotten picture but the truth is there.  Look for it!  It's there!!


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## Galadriel

kanozas said:


> Was listening to Catholic radio this evening in the car and the guest speaker is a convert.  He said something that just put it into a certain other perspective. Basically,  the pure truth of the Church is organized and protected by the Magisterium.  Priests and others might do something to obscure the truth a little to some others.  This I find true.  The organization is to protect, if you will, "the ark" of the faith - the pure faith and its doctrine handed down from Jesus to the Apostles.  Everything else is extraneous if you want to count sins.  Isn't that the way it is for everyone, Catholic or not?  Someone is always trying to paint a rotten picture but the truth is there.  Look for it!  It's there!!



Wise words!


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## Belle Du Jour

Thinking about visiting an eastern rite Catholic Church. Has anyone ever visited one of the eastern churches?


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## kanozas

Belle Du Jour said:


> Thinking about visiting an eastern rite Catholic Church. Has anyone ever visited one of the eastern churches?



Yes, Melchite.  Others not exactly in union with Rome.  I figure, if Our Lady appears at Zeitoun at their Eastern Orthodox, then they are still the universal Church.  But do what you are called to do.  Eastern is different.  For Melchite, they use sweet wine in the cup with tiny bites of what looks leavened and is dipped in the wine.  You open your mouth and tilt your head back.  Don't chomp down on the spoon   I know from experience.  I bet father still remembers me.  It was a natural reflex cuz the bread wasn't coming fast enough.

I've gone Coptic, both Ethiopian and Egyptian, Melchite (one in union with Rome) and of course, plenty of Greek Orthodox services.  I still might join them.


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## kanozas

Galadriel said:


> Wise words!




Man, I know so many who say they get nothing out of the Mass but I've been so very blessed from start until now.  So blessed and I am extremely thankful daily.  Such edifying priests, even our visiting ones from Nigeria and India.


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## Belle Du Jour

kanozas said:


> Yes, Melchite.  Others not exactly in union with Rome.  I figure, if Our Lady appear at Zeitoun at their Eastern Orthodox, then they are still the universal Church.  But do what you are called to do.  Eastern is different.  For Melchite, they use sweet wine in the cup with tiny bites of what looks leavened and is dipped in the wine.  You open your mouth and tilt your head back.  Don't chomp down on the spoon   I know from experience.  I bet father still remembers me.  It was a natural reflex cuz the bread wasn't coming fast enough.
> 
> I've gone Coptic, both Ethiopian and Egyptian, Melchite (one in union with Rome) and of course, plenty of Greek Orthodox services.  I still might join them.



I would prefer the churches in union with Rome. Thank you for sharing your experience. I think I will look at some videos on YouTube and probably go on a reconnaissance mission one Sunday


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## kanozas

Belle Du Jour said:


> I would prefer the churches *in union with Rome*. Thank you for sharing your experience. I think I will look at some videos on YouTube and probably go on a reconnaissance mission one Sunday




Have a great time.  There is a Coptic one in union, an Armenian one, the Lebanese Maronites in union and I think some Chaldean ones.  Probably pretty sparse, though.   Shoot, I love Youtube.  I listen to their hymns pretty often.


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## kanozas

http://www.cuf.org/2014/01/thirst-mother-teresas-devotion-thirst-jesus/

*“I Thirst”: Mother Teresa’s Devotion to the Thirst of Jesus*
Edward P. Sri
When visiting a chapel of the Missionaries of Charity—the religious order Bl. Mother Teresa founded—one is immediately struck by the simplicity, indeed the austerity, of the sacred space. There are no chairs, pews, or kneelers. The sisters take their shoes off before entering the chapel and sit or kneel on the bare floor. Typically, there are no ornate pieces of religious art. Just a gold tabernacle behind the altar and a statue of Our Lady in one corner.

The image that stands out most is a large crucifix behind the altar and the stark words painted in bold, black capital letters on the wall alongside it: “I THIRST.”

Mother Teresa said that those words in the chapel—taken from Jesus words from the cross on Good Friday—were a constant reminder of the purpose of the Missionaries of Charity. “We have these words in every chapel of the MCs to remind us what an MC is here for: to quench the thirst of Jesus for souls, for love, for kindness, for compassion, for delicate love.”1 Ever since her call to serve the poorest of the poor in 1946, Mother Teresa insisted that the Missionaries of Charity were founded “to satiate the thirst of Jesus,” and she included this statement in the founding Rules for the new religious order: “The General End of the Missionaries of Charity is to satiate the thirst of Jesus Christ on the Cross for Love and Souls.”2

But what does this mean—“to satiate the thirst of Jesus”? Throughout the ages, men and women have expressed the human person’s thirst for God. We see this in the famous Psalm 42: “As a hart longs for flowing streams, so longs my soul for thee, O God. My soul thirsts for God, for the living God” (Psalm 42:1). We see this also in the _Catechism_, which teaches that the human person has “longings for the infinite” which only God can fulfill (CCC, 33). Perhaps St. Augustine put it best in his prayer to God in the opening of his _Confessions_: “Our hearts are restless until they rest in you.”

The tradition often has emphasized our thirst for God. But Mother Teresa focused on _God’s _thirst for _us. _And the way she expressed it was revolutionary for me. In my youth, I heard that Jesus’ words from the Cross, “I thirst,” expressed His thirst for souls. But I understood this more in a general, abstract way: Jesus wanted souls “out there” in the world to be saved. Mother Teresa, however, sees Jesus’ “I thirst” as a very personal statement spoken to each individual today, at every moment. And she said Jesus is constantly awaiting our response to His thirst. Near the end of her life, in a letter to all of the Missionaries of Charity sisters, she made a passionate appeal to draw closer to the thirst of Jesus and take His statement “I Thirst” more seriously in their daily lives:

_Why does Jesus say “I Thirst”? What does it mean? . . . If you remember anything from Mother’s letter, remember this—‘I Thirst’ is something much deeper than just Jesus saying ‘I love you.’ Until you know deep inside that Jesus thirsts for you—you can’t begin to know who He wants to be for you. Or who He wants you to be for Him.3_

What specifically is Jesus thirsting for in us? He longs for our love—our attention, our ardent devotion, the total entrusting of our lives to Him. Reflecting on Jesus’ words from the Cross, Mother Teresa said,

_At this most difficult time He proclaimed, ‘I thirst.’ And people thought He was thirsty in an ordinary way and they gave Him vinegar straight away; but it was not for that thirst; it was for our love, our affection, that intimate attachment to Him, and that sharing of His passion. He used, ‘I thirst,’ instead of ‘Give Me your love’… ‘I thirst.’ Let us hear Him saying it to me and saying it to you.4_

Mother Teresa made Jesus’ statement “I thirst” so personal that she told her sisters to imagine Jesus saying those words directly to them. She even encouraged them to put their own name before “I thirst” and hear Jesus saying, for example, “Sister Mary Vincent, I thirst.” We can do the same. We can put ourselves in the silent presence of God, in a quiet place at home or in front of the Blessed Sacrament at church, and prayerfully imagine Jesus gently calling our name and speaking His parting words from the cross personally to each of us: “Ted, I thirst.”

_Just put yourself in front of the tabernacle. Don’t let anything disturb you. Hear your own name and “I Thirst.” I thirst for purity, I thirst for poverty, I thirst for obedience, I thirst for that wholehearted love, I thirst for that total surrender. Are we living a deeply contemplative life? He thirsts for that total surrender.5_

What should our response be to Jesus’ thirst for our love? When a suffering person in Ethiopia or India experienced torturing thirst, Mother Teresa would quickly bring water to satiate that thirst. In a similar way, Jesus thirsts for our love, and Mother Teresa desired to satiate His thirst by promptly responding to His will, by making sacrifices for Him, by loving Him in the people she served and by entrusting her entire life into His hands. “This is Jesus’ word, ‘I thirst’—for love, for souls not water.”6

We can begin to satiate God’s thirst for our love by being generous with Him with our time, by giving Him attention throughout our day, by spending more of our lives with Him in prayer. Mother Teresa also taught that we satiate Christ’s thirst by loving Him in our neighbor— those people He places in our lives, especially those in most need of our care and attention.

Most of all, Jesus thirsts for our lives to be completely surrendered to Him. He ardently desires that we be intimately attached to Him in such a way that we will not thirst for anything in this world that will lead us away from Him, the only “true and living fountain.”7 This satiating Christ’s thirst entails more than mere avoidance of sin; it involves a total yielding of our lives to Him—truly pursuing His plan for our lives. He thirsts for our entire lives to be surrendered to Him so that they may be used for His purposes.

Many of us, however, are hesitant. We are afraid to entrust ourselves totally to Him. We cling on to our own plans. Meanwhile, Jesus waits for our response as he continuously says to us, “I Thirst”.

One small vignette from Mother Teresa’s life exemplifies this point. She once told a religious—apparently someone who was hesitant to take a certain next step of faith in walking with the Lord—that Jesus “has a deep and personal longing to have you for Himself. _Let Him do it_.”8 Like this religious, we, too, face moments when the Lord is inviting us to do something difficult, to step out into the unknown. He wants to act in our lives, but we, in our fear, sometimes hesitate or even turn our backs on the path where He is leading us. Mother Teresa inspires us in those moments to consider our life choices in the context of Jesus’ thirst—as opportunities to satiate His thirst for our love: “Have we experienced His thirst? . . . Jesus came into this world to draw souls closer to His Father. . . . Just think, God is thirsting for you and me to come forward to satiate His thirst.”9



This entry was posted in November/December 2013 by Edward P. Sri. Bookmark the permalink.


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## kanozas

Happy and blessed Divine Mercy Sunday!


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## kanozas

When the true Presence of Christ is known and displayed, there is no doubt that the H-ly Spirit is likewise present.  Where there is the Magisterium guiding the Church and the promise of Christ that the H-ly Spirit is leading it, why would there be doubt it is the truth?  The Mass is fruitful in measures of our surrender to G-d the Father.


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## Galadriel

I hope you all had a wonderful Divine Mercy Sunday! I'm thrilled that my eldest son will be making his First Communion this Saturday (the 100th Anniversary of the Fatima apparitions).


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## ang3lface816

Just came back... was wondering if there were any updates? Pope Francis is DEFINITELY attempting to unite Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. See all news, since this post.


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## aquajoyice

qchelle said:


> religious people are so weird



I wouldn't say weird, but there are things about various religions that I don't understand and that doesn't make it weird just different.


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## kanozas

.


ang3lface816 said:


> *Would partaking in practices of the Catholic Church like Eucharist, the Sacraments,  certain types of prayer be considered taking part in RCC religion?* I agree that Protestants wouldn't  be official Catholics but  he is very instrumental in pushing what would be technically a global religion. Green sabbaths? With slight religious undertones. Check out the ecumenical movement, if you get a chance.  It shows all the religions also uniting in purpose to serve out the pope's message.  To see things that were written about and seemed a bit farfetched to even my SDA self, coming to pass, it's strengthened my confidence in what the Bible says.
> 
> The pope has been meeting with the ceos of various social media platforms and they have expressed a dedication to "spreading his message ". Recently the US gave away rights to the Internet. He's basically connecting with every platform.




Again, people need to know history and politics.  The popes have BEEN involved with social problems and political issues from forever as they affect all life on earth.  Nothing new.  Every presidency has held an audience with the standing Pope.  The ecumenical movement is not new.  As there are various denominations and religions, how are they working to give the Pope supremacy?  He is the Vicar of the Church that Jesus established.  Understand the reform movement and also keep an open mind as well as facts about all the various denominations.  Are they still belonging to THEIR denominations?  Absolutely.  If anything, it's like having peace accords, looking to that one thing that unites us, love of the G-d the Father.  Conspiracy theories mislead people.

To your first question, you cannot participate in our sacraments unless you come into the Church by proper conversion, period.  There are various reasons for that.  CHRISTIANITY itself is a global religion...think about it a little.
.


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## kanozas

- Do you worship the Sabbath like the Pharisaical leaders or the L-rd of the Sabbath? 


- Because it is murder of the most indefensible, the unborn _people.  _It is a most grave sin.  People can scoff...but one day, we will all give an accounting of our lives and G-d's rule is final.

- knowledge is everything...procure it.  It's widely available.  Seek wisdom and cultivate it.  Seek truth.  If sincerely desired and you persevere, it will be given.  
* John 8:32King James Version (KJV)*
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.


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## sharifeh

Honey Bee said:


> One of the reasons I like Catholicism is cuz everything is all worked out already and written down some where, like hadiths for Islam or whatever. Somebody already thought about it, debated it with other people, and decided, _centuries_ ago. Makes it very easy to understand follow properly. I find Protestantism to be a... schismatic mess. Too many cooks spoil the stew.



All of this.  
That's  exactly why I like Catholicism too. Protestantism and the way it developed reminds me too much of the Salafi so called "fundamentalist" interpretations of Islam.


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## kanozas

Hahaha  kkkkkk  *snort*


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## kanozas




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## Belle Du Jour

http://faithofthefathersapparitions.../our-lady-of-nicaragua-our-lady-of-cuapa.html


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## kanozas

Came across this article today after watching something on Msgr. Romero last night:


> Romero was not a theologian and never considered himself part of Liberation Theology, the most radical Catholic movement born of Vatican II. But he shared with the liberationists a vision of a Gospel meant to protect the poor. “Between the powerful and the wealthy, and the poor and vulnerable, who should a pastor side with?” he asked himself. “I have no doubts. A pastor should stay with his people.” It was a political decision, but justified theologically. All of his writings include extensive biblical references, Church documents, and Papal quotations to support his assertions.




http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-beatification-of-oscar-romero

*The Beatification of Óscar Romero*
*By Carlos Dada*
  May 19, 2015



In his home country of El Salvador, the Archbishop Óscar Romero, who was assassinated, in 1980, for his outspoken opposition to the country’s military regime, is still a divisive figure.Photograph by Alex Bowie / Getty 


On May 23rd, thirty-five years after his assassination, Óscar Romero, the Archbishop of San Salvador, will be beatified. The ceremony is the step just prior to sainthood, so a big celebration is expected in El Salvador, although the cheer will not be unanimous. The country is still deeply divided between the rightist and leftist political forces that emanated from its civil war, in the nineteen-eighties, and Romero, identified with the poor, was a divisive figure who declared war on inequality and a criminal military regime.


When I was a child, in the late seventies, _Monseñor Romero_ was an omnipresent figure: on the front pages of all the newspapers, on TV and radio, in every adult conversation. Every Sunday, when Romero celebrated Mass in the cathedral, Salvadorans who could not attend tuned in to the radio station that broadcast his homilies. From the pulpit, Romero lectured politicians, soldiers, popular organizations, and guerrillas alike; he urged them to renounce violence and he demanded social justice. He reminded the Salvadoran élites that peace could not be achieved in an unequal society. He accused them of maintaining “insulting” privileges through repression. He usually read detailed reports about people who had been killed or disappeared, and on massacres committed by the Army. And then, on March 24, 1980, a sniper from a right-wing death squad shot Romero in the heart while he was officiating Mass in a chapel in San Salvador.


Romero’s ecclesiastical career before he became Archbishop was that of a shy, traditional priest, averse to politics and most comfortable inside the walls of his temple. But starting in the late sixties, throughout Latin America, thousands of Catholic priests and laymen were traveling to remote villages to organize peasants and workers, following the directives of Vatican II and the 1968 Conference of Latin American Bishops, in Medellín, Colombia, which established the preferential option for the poor, asking all Catholics to act against the structural problems that had so many people in poverty. Medellín asked Christians to help the poor form Christian Base Communities, where they would talk about and engage in the struggle to dignify their lives.


This was no small transformation. For centuries, the Church had been telling the poor that their sufferings were God’s will, but now young priests were coming to rural areas to tell them that an unjust political and economic system, not God, was to blame for their miserable condition. God wanted them to live decent lives in this world, before they went to Heaven. The church was there to help them. It was a radical change, a revolution. The poor now had religious support to organize and defend themselves against the landowners, the oligarchy, the wealthiest people in one of the most unequal regions in the world, and against their repressive military apparatus.


Romero’s predecessor as Archbishop of San Salvador, Luis Chávez y González, was a strong supporter of peasants and workers’ organizations. He moved nuns from urban schools to rural posts and called for civilians to bring Vatican II everywhere. He opened a small office at the San Salvador archbishopric to provide legal aid to the poor. (Under Romero, that office would become _Tutela Legal_, El Salvador’s main center for denouncing massacres and disappearances.) Local newspapers, owned by the ruling families, complained about Chávez y González and called him a communist.  So in 1977, when he reached retirement age, the élites saw a golden opportunity to put the Salvadoran church back on track.


Oscar Romero’s aversion to politics earned him the appointment as Archbishop. By then, the military, which had been ruling the country since 1931, had staged another electoral fraud and was strongly repressing popular movements. It was chasing, capturing, torturing, and killing priests who organized peasants in the rural areas, especially in the coffee farms owned by the wealthy. Just one month after Romero’s inauguration, one of those priests, Rutilio Grande, a Jesuit who headed a rural parish, and who was one of Romero’s closest friends, was killed by state agents.


Much to everyone’s surprise, the new Archbishop proved to be a determined man. He cancelled Sunday Mass throughout the country and convened the Salvadoran Church in the cathedral for a single Mass; there, he publicly blamed the government for Grande’s death and demanded justice. A couple of months later, he refused an invitation to the inauguration of the new President, General Carlos Romero, a first for a Salvadoran Archbishop, and refused to meet with Government officials if they would not investigate and prosecute the crime.


In a letter to Cardinal Sebastiano Baggio, the Prefect of the Congregation of the Bishops in Rome, Romero explained his decision: “I felt it was my duty to translate into words and contemporary evangelical gestures the brave old attitude of the Saint Bishop of Milano, Ambrosius, when he did not allow Emperor Theodosius to enter the church, demanding a previous public penitence for his guilt in unjustifiable killings.”


The Vatican nuncio (ambassador) to El Salvador, an Italian bishop named Emanuele Gerada, who had successfully lobbied for Romero’s appointment, was now furious with him. He wrote to Rome that the new Archbishop had severed the church’s relations with the government. Half of the Salvadoran Episcopal Conference—the local Catholic hierarchy, composed of six bishops, including the Archbishop—accused Romero of treason and swore to destroy him. One of them was the military chaplain.


During those days, Romero received his first death threats, from death squads with names such as _La Falange_ and the _White Warriors Union._ They sent him letters warning that he was at the front of “a group of clergymen that at any moment will receive thirty bullets in their faces and chests.” It became common knowledge that Romero could be killed at any moment, as so many other priests had been.


Beginning in March, 1978, Romero sat in front of a microphone almost every night and recorded a diary, offering his reflections on a variety of subjects, from his regular ecclesiastical duties to the political turmoil and violence that were engulfing El Salvador. This diary, along with the transcripts of his homilies, his pastoral letters, and his correspondence with the Catholic Church hierarchy in Rome, constitute the main body of work studied by the Congregation for the Cause of the Saints, which is in charge of the process of canonization.


Romero was not a theologian and never considered himself part of Liberation Theology, the most radical Catholic movement born of Vatican II. But he shared with the liberationists a vision of a Gospel meant to protect the poor. “Between the powerful and the wealthy, and the poor and vulnerable, who should a pastor side with?” he asked himself. “I have no doubts. A pastor should stay with his people.” It was a political decision, but justified theologically. All of his writings include extensive biblical references, Church documents, and Papal quotations to support his assertions.


In October, 1978, Karol Wojtyla, a Polish Cardinal who had heroically resisted the Nazi occupation and guided the Church of Poland under the attacks of a communist regime, became John Paul II, a Pope ill-prepared to understand the situation on the other side of the Atlantic, where the oppressive military regimes were not communists but rightists—supported not by Moscow but by the other Cold War power, the United States.


On May 11, 1979, John Paul II hosted the Archbishop of San Salvador for a brief meeting in Rome. News had reached the new Pope of the deep divisions in the Salvadoran Church. Romero explained how hard it was for him to work with bishops who acted in compliance with the Salvadoran military regime, which was systematically targeting his clergymen. By then, three priests who were close to Romero had been killed by state security forces, and dozens of others had been tortured, expelled, or banned from entering the country. Yet the conservative Salvadoran bishops were blessing military tanks, blaming Liberation Theology for the military attacks against the Church, and speaking against Romero to Rome.


Romero recorded in his diary: “[John Paul II] reminded me of his situation in Poland, where he had to face a non-Catholic regime with which the development of the Church had to be done in spite of such difficulties. He gave much importance to the unity of the episcopate and, remembering again his times in Poland, said this was the main problem, to keep the episcopal unity.”


His Holiness was wrong. The most urgent matter in El Salvador was not fostering episcopal unity but stopping brutal repression by the military and the death squads and averting a civil war.


Less than a year after that meeting, on March 24, 1980, Romero became the first Catholic bishop killed in a church since Thomas Becket was murdered in Canterbury, in 1170.


His assassination was organized by a paramilitary death squad headed by Mario Molina (the son of the former President Colonel Arturo Molina) and a former intelligence officer named Roberto d’Aubuisson. The squad was protected by the military command and financed by wealthy Salvadorans. On the night of Romero’s killing, the quiet of San Salvador’s wealthiest neighborhoods was broken by fireworks and shotguns, sounds of celebration.


Joaquín Villalobos, a former commander of the Farabundo Martí Liberation Front, wrote recently, “Before they killed Monseñor, we were tens of guerrilla fighters; after it, we were thousands.” A twelve-year war between the F.M.L.N. and the regime erupted.


For decades, Romero was not even mentioned in El Salvador’s official narrative.  Something similar happened in Rome. His beatification is a sign that Pope Francis is determined to undo the work of his predecessors, John Paul II and Benedict, and that Rome is, once again, changing course.


The Church has now declared that Romero was killed because of his faith. Yet the death squads, the military, and the wealthy financiers of his killing all professed to be followers of Christ. Some of them, still alive, are active members of church communities, give lots of money to Catholic conservative organizations, send their kids to Catholic schools, and never miss a Sunday Mass. They say that they have God to thank for all their possessions (never mind their corruption, exploitation of the poor, repression, impunity, and historical position as the effective owners of the state). On religious grounds, they firmly oppose abortion, gay marriage, and birth control. They were not opposed to killing thousands of people who challenged their point of view. And, during the reigns of John Paul and Benedict, they also had leverage in Rome.


Soon after the Argentinean Cardinal Mario José Bergoglio was named Pope Francis, he declared he had “unblocked” the canonization process for Romero, effectively admitting that the process had been blocked by the hierarchies of the previous papacies. Early this year, Monsignor Vincenzo Paglia, the bishop of the Italian diocese of Terni and the official postulant of the cause for Romero’s sainthood, revealed that three Salvadoran ambassadors to the Vatican—he refused to name them—had actively lobbied against the canonization process, arguing that Romero was still a politically divisive figure in El Salvador and that his elevation to the altars could be manipulated by the leftist groups.


Salvadoran conservative groups argued that Romero was killed for his “subversive” political stances in the context of a civil war—a necessary narrative, especially since the organizer of the killing was also the leader of the conservatives, and they still revere him.


On the other side, supporters of Romero’s canonization have tried to strip his legacy of any political controversy. Romero, they argue, acted strictly based on the Gospels. He was killed because of his faith.


Neither of these accounts is accurate. Romero was indeed deliberately and intensely political. He discovered the power of the archbishopric and decided to use it to influence the Salvadoran political process in favor of the victims and against the military regime. But his direct confrontation with the established powers can’t explain his assassination. He was killed because those powers thought they could get away with it. And they did, because Salvadoran history, for them, was a lesson in controlling the system through repression.


Because, as the Archbishop wrote a few months before his death, in one of his pastoral letters, “There is an institutionalized violence expressed in a political and economic system that believes progress is only possible through the use of the majority as a productive force conducted by a privileged minority.” Violence, he warned, would not end until such structural problems were addressed.


Not long before his assassination, Romero sent a letter to President Jimmy Carter, asking him to block a military-aid package for the Salvadoran Army. He made the case that the aid was only going to be used to inflict further harm on the Salvadoran people, that political power was in the hands of “the unscrupulous military who know how to repress the people and promote the interests of the Salvadoran oligarchy”. It would be unjust, he continued, “if the intrusion of foreign power were to frustrate the Salvadoran people, or to repress them and block their autonomous decision.”


One day after Romero’s assassination, the package was approved by the U.S. Congress. And the twelve-year war engulfed El Salvador.


In 1992, the U.N. brokered a peace agreement between the government and the F.M.L.N. guerrillas, which put an end to the war. It was considered an exemplary accord. By then, nearly a hundred thousand people had been killed. The F.M.L.N. became a political party and has governed El Salvador since 2009, when it put an end to twenty years of rule by Arena, the rightist party founded by D’Aubuisson.


Due to criminal violence, mostly related to gangs and drug cartels, El Salvador has one of the highest homicide rates on the planet. Poverty, one of the structural problems so frequently pointed to by Romero, has decreased only because a third of Salvadorans have left El Salvador, and many of them send money back. Corruption has been rampant under both rightists and leftists. It’s a good time, it seems, to reread the teachings of the now celebrated Archbishop.


“With certain societies,” Romero said in a sermon, “God feels he has failed.”

_Carlos Dada is the founder and editor of El Faro, an online news site based in San Salvador. He is currently a fellow at the New York Public Library’s Cullman Center for Scholars and Writers._


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## Lucia

kanozas said:


> Hahaha  kkkkkk  *snort*


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## Lucia




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## Lucia




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## Lucia




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## kanozas

http://www.awakentoprayer.org/prayers_for_peace.htm

Prayers for Peace

1 Timothy 2:1-3

"I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone-- for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior..." (Compare NAB.)


"At times like these [when we are at war], we turn to God and ask for wisdom and perseverance, courage and compassion, faith and hope. We Christians are called to be "sentinels of peace," the Holy Father reminds us. We join with him in urging Catholics to dedicate [ourselves] to reflection, prayer and fasting that the trials and tragedy of war will soon be replaced by a just and lasting peace." Bishop Gregory's March 19, 2003 statement on the war with Iraq.  See NCCB page on peace.
Prayer for World Peace


"Lord, we pray for the power to be gentle, the strength to be forgiving, the patience to be understanding, and the endurance to accept the consequences of holding to we believe to be right.

May we put our trust in the power of good to overcome evil and the power of love to overcome hatred. We pray for the vision to see and the faith to believe in a world emancipated from violence...

Help us to devote our whole life, thought and energy to the task of making peace, praying always for the inspiration and the power to fulfill the destiny for which we were created." Anonymous.



_Call of Pope John Paul II
Interfaith Day of Prayer for Peace at Assisi,
January 24, 2002_


Violence never again!

War never again!

Terrorism never again!

In God's name,

May all religions bring upon earth,

Justice and peace,

Forgiveness, life and love!


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## kanozas

Pope Francis' Finance Minister....smh.   Pray for direction, proper retribution and healing.  What a stink!


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## Lucia

I have to say Catholics have been stepping our game up in the visual promos.


http://confirmationstudy.com/


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## Lucia




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## Lucia




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## kanozas

How long is it going to take for us to be 100% human?  For the bible to apply to ALL people?  How long is it going to take for White Christians to suck up the negative history, admit that ancestors were wrong and that they benefit from the past today?  Junipero Serra of the Californian Missions was plugged as great today on Catholic radio program...said that negative accounts of him was the English attempt to malign Spanish history and development in this country.  That particular case?  NO.  I don't believe it.  Just give the truth, pure and simple.  We're taught to repent and to forgive.  How can WE forgive YOU when you won't repent?  Here's a rosy view that basically ignores my people's humanity under the "guise" of the RCC and a not-so-rosy viewpoint that only hits the parts of the iceberg visible:

https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/faith-and-justice/junipero-serra-saint-or-not

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...unipero-serra-sainthood-washington-california


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## kanozas

Lucia said:


>



I'm enjoying his series.


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## kanozas

Catholic ladies, what on earth???!!!  Well, we already know.  I just fear this Pope is going to be the one taken out and murdered for standing for the true faith.

Papa Francis, please clean house.  He is surrounded by wolves!!!  SMH.  

http://www.catholic.org/news/international/europe/story.php?id=75429
*SCANDAL: Vatican police raid cardinal's apartment to stop drug fueled gay party*


By Marshall Connolly (CALIFORNIA NETWORK)
7/6/2017 _(1 day ago)_
*Catholic Online* (*www.catholic.org*)

*Pope Francis said to be infuriated by report. *
Scandal has come to the Vatican once again as Vatican police announce a raid on a high official's apartment where intoxicated men were found having sex and consuming illegal drugs. The apartment is owned by Cardinal Francesco Coccopalmerio, who is one of the Pope's closest advisors.



*Autoplay:* On | Off





Cardinal Francesco Coccopalmerio owns the apartment where his secretary lives and hosted a gay orgy.

* Highlights*
By Marshall Connolly (CALIFORNIA NETWORK)
Catholic Online (www.catholic.org) 
7/6/2017 _(1 day ago)_

Published in Europe

Keywords: Vatican, cardinal, gay, orgy, scandal, police, drugs, raid


LOS ANGELES, CA (California Network) -- Vatican police have raided a cardinal's apartment in Rome, arresting men they say were involved in a gay orgy and doing drugs. The raid took place in late June. Pope Francis is reportedly furious at the news as he has worked hard to clean up the Vatican. The cardinal who owns the apartment is Francesco Coccopalmerio, who is president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts. The council is responsible for guiding the Church in its approach to sex abuse cases.

Cardinal Coccopalmerio was not at the apartment at the time of the raid, and he is not a suspect in any crime. The apartment is occupied by his secretary. The secretary was present and among those arrested. According to reports, the Cardinal previously recommended his secretary for promotion to bishop. This recommendation calls into question the cardinal's discernment and possibly character. Pope Francis will now be forced to reassess the Cardinal's status as a close advisor.




The disgraced secretary has been released from custody for the time being, and has been sent to a monastery for retreat. This is the Vatican equivalent of arrest, although it is much more benevolent than what the police offer.
It is unclear who were the other men involved in the orgy, and if they too are posted to the Vatican of if they were visitors from outside.

Vatican police became suspicious after neighbors reported strange noises and people coming and going from the apartment. The visitors showed signs of abnormal behavior, raising concerns which prompted police to investigate.

The Vatican has long been criticized for alleged corruption at the highest levels of power. Cardinal Pell, the Pope's chief financial advisor took a leave of absence last week to deal with allegations of abuse in Australia. Now, another advisor must contend with accusations that his secretary engaged in promiscuous, same-sex activity and drugs. What does this say about the judgement of Cardinal Coccopalmerio? What does it say about Pope Francis, the Vatican and the Church as a whole?

The Church has always faced dangers from less than holy men. Some of those dangerous men have risen to the rank of pontiff. Despite the best efforts of kings, emperors, heretics, and even her own clergy, the Church has survived, preaching with success the same message for two thousand years.

Pope Francis has work he must do to complete his mission of cleaning up the Vatican. Arrests such as these can help by rooting out the immoral and corrupt officials there. We should also remember Christ's promise, the gates of hell will never prevail against the Church.


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## kanozas

Cleaning out the corners, one corner at a time...

https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2017/07...fficials-childrens-hospital-financial-crimes/

*Vatican indicts two ex-officials of children’s hospital for financial crimes*

Crux Staff
July 13, 2017
AUTHOR



Giuseppe Profiti, former president of a foundation overseeing the papally-sponsored pediatric hospital Bambino Gesu. (Credit: Stock image.)

*Two former officials of the papally-sponsored pediatric hospital Bambino Gesù have been charged by Vatican prosecutors with misappropriation of funds over an outlay of almost $500,000 to remodel a Vatican apartment of Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, former Secretary of State under Pope Benedict XVI, with the contract going to a company owned by a Bertone friend. Bertone himself does not face any charges.*


In what may be seen as a step forward for Pope Francis’s press for financial reform, Vatican prosecutors on Thursday announced indictments under its criminal law against two former officials of the papally-sponsored pediatric hospital Bambino Gesù for misappropriation of funds.

The two Italian laymen charged, Giuseppe Profiti and Massimo Spina, are both former members of a foundation that oversees the famed children’s hospital, located a stone’s throw away from the Vatican and immediately adjacent to the Pontifical North American College, the residence for American seminarians in Rome. Profiti was the president of the foundation, Spina its treasurer.

According to the information released Thursday by the Holy See Press Office, Profiti and Spina are charged with illicitly using funds meant for Bambino Gesù, and thus ultimately meant for the care of sick children, to profit a Rome-based construction company called Castelli Re, run at the time by another Italian financier named Gianantonio Bandera.

The alleged misappropriation took place in 2014, meaning the charge is effectively three years old.

Specifically, the indictment states that close to $500,000 of the foundation’s money was paid to Bandera’s company to perform upgrades on a Vatican apartment belonging to Italian Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, the former Secretary of State under emeritus Pope Benedict XVI and a long-standing friend of Bandera.

There’s no suggestion in the indictment, however, of charges against Bertone himself, now 82.

The Vatican also announced Thursday that the head of its criminal tribunal has empaneled a three-judge body to hear the case against Profiti and Spina, with its first hearing set for July 18 at 10:00 a.m. Rome time - and, if they fail to appear, the statement said both men will be tried in absentia. Their lawyers had been given until July 11 to submit defense materials to the court.

Because both Profiti and Spina are Italian citizens and not clergy, they could dispute the Vatican court’s jurisdiction. In July 2016, a similar court in the “Vatileaks 2.0” scandal acquitted two lay Italian journalists for lack of jurisdiction, although it did convict Italian lay woman Francesca Chaouqui, who had been a member of a papal advisory body on financial reform and was accused of leaking confidential documents.

This marks the first time the Vatican publicly has announced an indictment under new measures intended to fight financial money-laundering and financial crime, which began under Benedict XVI and have been strengthened under Francis.

The need to enforce those laws was a key point in the last evaluation of the Vatican performed by Moneyval, the Council of Europe’s anti-money laundering agency, which is set to update that assessment later this year. Getting a clean bill of health from Moneyval is seen as key to the Vatican’s ability to be on “white lists” of global actors playing by the financial rules, thus avoiding frozen accounts, suspended transactions, and higher transaction fees for perceived risk.

The details of the charges against Profiti and Spina were already well-known in Rome, as the expenditures on Bertone’s apartment have been public and the object of controversy for some time. In an interview last year, Profit defended the outlay, saying it was work that formed part of a “precise project of development.”

In effect, Profiti said, Bambino Gesù had intended to launch a major capital campaign and needed the expanded space in Bertone’s apartment in order to host fundraising receptions. He argued that in the year 2013, such events hosted by Bertone had boosted donations to the hospital from 3 to 5 million Euro annually, and called the remodeling a “marketing” investment.

“Not only was this a legitimate expense, but I’ll tell you, if I found myself in the same situation today, I’d make the same decision again,” Profiti said.

In the end, Bandera’s company not only was paid almost $500,000 by the Bambino Gesù foundation for work on Bertone’s apartment, but also submitted another set of bills for almost $350,000, which were paid by Bertone directly.

When the investigation that culminated in Thursday’s indictment was announced last year, Vatican Spokesman Greg Burke said Bertone himself was not facing review. Although Bertone has consistently denied any wrongdoing, he made a contribution of a little over $170,000 to Bambino Gesù after the publication of a book in late 2015 detailing the expenses for his residence.

Recently, Bambino Gesù was the subject of a reporting series by the _Associated Press_ charging that during Profiti’s tenure, children’s health was put at risk in the pursuit of financial gain. Those accusations were denied by Burke, who called them “false and unjust.”


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## Lucia




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## Lucia

kanozas said:


> Catholic ladies, what on earth???!!!  Well, we already know.  I just fear this Pope is going to be the one taken out and murdered for standing for the true faith.
> 
> *Papa Francis, please clean house.  He is surrounded by wolves!!!  SMH.*
> 
> http://www.catholic.org/news/international/europe/story.php?id=75429
> *SCANDAL: Vatican police raid cardinal's apartment to stop drug fueled gay party*
> 
> 
> By Marshall Connolly (CALIFORNIA NETWORK)
> 7/6/2017 _(1 day ago)_
> *Catholic Online* (*www.catholic.org*)
> 
> *Pope Francis said to be infuriated by report. *
> Scandal has come to the Vatican once again as Vatican police announce a raid on a high official's apartment where intoxicated men were found having sex and consuming illegal drugs. The apartment is owned by Cardinal Francesco Coccopalmerio, who is one of the Pope's closest advisors.
> 
> 
> 
> *Autoplay:* On | Off
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cardinal Francesco Coccopalmerio owns the apartment where his secretary lives and hosted a gay orgy.
> 
> * Highlights*
> By Marshall Connolly (CALIFORNIA NETWORK)
> Catholic Online (www.catholic.org)
> 7/6/2017 _(1 day ago)_
> 
> Published in Europe
> 
> Keywords: Vatican, cardinal, gay, orgy, scandal, police, drugs, raid
> 
> 
> LOS ANGELES, CA (California Network) -- Vatican police have raided a cardinal's apartment in Rome, arresting men they say were involved in a gay orgy and doing drugs. The raid took place in late June. Pope Francis is reportedly furious at the news as he has worked hard to clean up the Vatican. The cardinal who owns the apartment is Francesco Coccopalmerio, who is president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts. The council is responsible for guiding the Church in its approach to sex abuse cases.
> 
> Cardinal Coccopalmerio was not at the apartment at the time of the raid, and he is not a suspect in any crime. The apartment is occupied by his secretary. The secretary was present and among those arrested. According to reports, the Cardinal previously recommended his secretary for promotion to bishop. This recommendation calls into question the cardinal's discernment and possibly character. Pope Francis will now be forced to reassess the Cardinal's status as a close advisor.
> 
> 
> The disgraced secretary has been released from custody for the time being, and has been sent to a monastery for retreat. This is the Vatican equivalent of arrest, although it is much more benevolent than what the police offer.
> It is unclear who were the other men involved in the orgy, and if they too are posted to the Vatican of if they were visitors from outside.
> 
> Vatican police became suspicious after neighbors reported strange noises and people coming and going from the apartment. The visitors showed signs of abnormal behavior, raising concerns which prompted police to investigate.
> 
> The Vatican has long been criticized for alleged corruption at the highest levels of power. Cardinal Pell, the Pope's chief financial advisor took a leave of absence last week to deal with allegations of abuse in Australia. Now, another advisor must contend with accusations that his secretary engaged in promiscuous, same-sex activity and drugs. What does this say about the judgement of Cardinal Coccopalmerio? What does it say about Pope Francis, the Vatican and the Church as a whole?
> 
> The Church has always faced dangers from less than holy men. Some of those dangerous men have risen to the rank of pontiff. Despite the best efforts of kings, emperors, heretics, and even her own clergy, the Church has survived, preaching with success the same message for two thousand years.
> 
> Pope Francis has work he must do to complete his mission of cleaning up the Vatican. Arrests such as these can help by rooting out the immoral and corrupt officials there. We should also remember Christ's promise, the gates of hell will never prevail against the Church.




to the bolded. But hes doing it, it's years of deep seeded corruption and sin, *he's wrestling with both the physical and in the spiritual realm. *He's got a big job to do you can't undo 50 years of corruption in 5 years it will take time but with God he can and will do this through him and others.  *That's why we need to pray for him and all clergy for the honest ones that they can resist temptation and stay on the narrow road, and for the dirty ones to come clean and rehabilitate under suspension or leave.* Pope Francis is always asking us to pray for him and that's one of the many reasons why we should.

Actually, I don't fear for him on that point because that's why God put him there. Every Pope has that danger as part of his office.  It's like becoming President you're not necessarily going to be done in but it's a risk that's part of such an important office.
 God- That's the reason why he is where he is, he's the first Jesuit Pope that's saying a lot already, he's from the Americas (Ok South America ) again another first. He wasn't in Rome positioning for that spot, he wanted to be a missionary in Japan, China? (I don't remember)

Of course all Popes are called by God but some are not fit, too corrupt, or to permissive, lack the strength/courage to do what God calls them to do in the office.  We need this kind of Preist in the office of Pope someone who will be "a Jesuit" about some things and get stuff done, kick butt and take names in that order and IMO Pope Francis, is that guy.


*Side note: I've noticed that some of the most bitter and staunch opposers of the RCC are former Catholics now Protestants or atheists they've got a rebellion, anger, some kind of strife or passive aggressive rebellious spirit ? on them that prevents them from being forgiving regarding the Church's problems do to the imperfections and outright crimes of some of the men who who are clergy.
Because it's the person who falls short, not the Church, it's the person who is not up to the task or falls into temptation, not the Church. To me it seems like they've (bitter former Catholics) bundled up the person with the Church as one and not 2 separate entities that they are.  The Preists serve the church, they are married to the church but like the wife of an unfaithful husband she can't force them to behave.
Whereas sex scandals and all kinds of other muckery are going on in their churches (like polygamous Deacons, pedophilia, Pastors having what are basically a "harem" of women at his beck and call, no preaching against abortions and birth control, no preaching against pre marital sex, etc...) but they have no comment on it. But they will give you an earful cause you're Catholic can't you control your Preists? *Just makes me wonder, what do you ladies think about that?*


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## Lucia

https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/examining-crisis/pope-calls-bishops-negligence-crime-important

*Pope calls bishops' negligence a crime: this is important*
When it comes to holding bishops and religious superiors responsible for the cover up of clergy sex abuse, Pope Francis' June 4 apostolic letter on ecclesial accountability is not only a distinct improvement over the proposal made a year ago to establish a tribunal to hold bishops accountable, it is possibly the most positive and hopeful signal to come out of the Vatican to date.

Canon lawyer Kurt Martens -- among others -- told _NCR_, "Everyone seems to be excited about the new [aposotlic letter] but there is really no change." However, there is something breaking with this pronouncement -- the official recognition by the church's highest authority of hierarchical negligence in dealing with sex abuse by clerics. It is not only acknowledged but named as a crime.

The apostolic letter, or _motu proprio_ known by its Italian title, _Come una madre amorevole _("As a loving mother"), has some remarkable positive points that deserve mention:


Negligence can be punished if it has hurt individuals and/or the community. It is vital that the disastrous impact on the Christian communities because of the bishops' actions or lack thereof be acknowledged for what it is.
The norms for removal do not demand that the pope have "moral certitude" of the culpability of the bishop. He can be removed or forced to resign for failure in the diligence required of him. This is a far cry from having to prove "grave moral culpability." These factors can go a long way in eliminating the possibility of lengthy litigation or protracted appeals which many feared would be the undoing of a tribunal process.
The U.S. bishops were criticized for not including superiors of religious communities under the Dallas Charter and Essential Norms. The pope plugged that hole in his Apostolic Letter by making it clear that major religious superiors, that is, provincials and superiors general, can also be subjected to this process.
Unilateral removal is now a distinct reality and distinguishes between removal and an "invited" resignation. Victims, survivors and others have rightly criticized this pope because, rather than removing several U.S. bishops who were blatantly guilty of dereliction of duty, he allowed them to resign or retire. Everyone knew what was really happening yet it served as an insult to the victims and others so gravely wounded by these prelates' intentional actions.
Canon lawyers will no doubt bicker about the five articles of the process and create numerous relevant and irrelevant questions. They, as well as the persons who will be responsible for taking this letter from potency to act, would be much better served if they sat down and listened to as many of the survivors of sexual abuse as possible. This has been one of the most glaring intentional omissions by the clerical world since the entire sex abuse debacle was revealed more than 30 years ago.

Many bishops have sat down and gone through perfunctory meetings with victims, all too often insisted upon by their attorneys, but very few have actually taken the time to listen to these men and women. After all, the whole 30-plus year period since clergy abuse was publicly revealed is fundamentally about the victims. Looking at the bishops' and popes' histories one would be hard pressed to see this since the deeply engrained clerical narcissism has made it nearly impossible for the ecclesiastical leadership to see the "problem" and the victims from any other perspective than their own.

Critics of this letter and last year's tribunal plan claim that the pope already has the authority to remove bishops at will. This is true. He can remove a bishop or to force his resignation without any kind of process and without giving a reason. Bishops are freely appointed by the pope and just as freely removed. Canon 1389 of the Code refers to abuse of authority and negligence in office. The actions of scores of bishops and cardinals clearly fall within the parameters of this canon.

What is so special about this latest development is the acknowledgement that the negligent and irresponsible actions of many bishops was not based on their ignorance about the nature of sex abuse or advice given by medical experts -- two of the many silly excuses offered -- but that their actions and inactions were willful and potentially criminal. This is a mind-blowing change from the past where every effort was made to protect and exonerate the bishops above every other consideration.

This stands in stark contrast to Pope John Paul II who extended sympathy to bishops for the pain this crisis was causing them, a sentiment regretfully expressed by Pope Francis to the U.S. bishops when he visited here in 2015. His speech caused an uproar among victims and their supporters and prompted many to abandon any hope that Pope Francis would make a difference.

The change in attitude is radical and had to have been inspired by a source other than the Vatican curia. That source has to have been, without a doubt, the Pontifical Commission for the Protection of Minors. The commission has been insisting that accountability of bishops is a top priority. Calling bishops on the carpet for neglecting to act properly in the face of sexual abuse by clerics has not only been a top demand from victims and non-victims the world over but it has been a demand that has been actively stone-walled since the crisis first became publicly known over 30 years ago.

Francis and his two predecessors, Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI, have known in detail about hundreds of bishops who have fulfilled the criteria for removal as set forth in this apostolic letter. Evidence of abuse of the episcopal office or of negligence has come not only from direct reports or accusations of victims but also from testimony and other evidence presented in the thousands of civil and criminal trials and court processes that have taken place in several countries since the mid-1980s.

The most prolific, detailed and credible sources of information of the bishops' dereliction of duty has come from grand jury investigations in the United States, governmental investigatory commissions in Ireland, and, most recently, the royal commission in Australia. The first sentence of the 2005 Philadelphia grand jury report said that "Cardinal [Anthony] Bevilacqua and Cardinal [John] Krol excused and enabled the abuse." The Ferns Commission, the first in Ireland, named Bishop Brendan Cumisky's negligence as the prime factor in the sexual violation of the many victims of the late Sean Fortune. In Australia, Cardinal George Pell's own recent testimony before the royal commission confirmed his direct role in the cover-up of abusers and mistreatment of victims.

Is there precedent for papal action? John Paul II removed French Bishop Jacques Gaillot in 1995. His "crime" was being too pastoral. He reluctantly accepted the resignation of Cardinal Bernard Law of Boston in 2002 and tried to protect confirmed sexual abuser Cardinal Hans Hermann Groer, Archbishop of Vienna, Austria but he had no problem forcing the resignation Bishop Geoff Robinson of Sydney, Australia and Bishop Tom Gumbleton from Detroit, Michigan both of whom publicly supported the victims of abuse and criticized the Vatican's lack of action.

Benedict sacked Australian Bishop William Morris for supposed "doctrinal" reasons, but his overall track record was different than John Paul's. In 2011 he laicized a Paraguayan bishop Fernando Lugo, former bishop of San Pedro) who had gotten a teenaged girl pregnant. He also laicized Emmanual Milengo, former archbishop of Lusaka, for an illicit marriage but also for affiliating himself with the Unification Church of Sun Myung Moon, known popularly as the Moonies. Benedict was the first pope to laicize a bishop, which had not been done for centuries, no matter what the bishop had done.

Francis quickly laicized Gabina Miranda Melgarejo, an auxiliary bishop from the archdiocese of Ayacucho, Peru, when it became known that he had abused a young teenaged girl. He also laicized Jozef Wesolowski, former papal nuncio to the Dominican Republic, for child abuse. These were bishops who were abusers themselves. But what about the enablers? Francis forced the resignation of Bishop Gonzalo Galvan Castillo of Autlan, Mexico, for failing to report a priest who had sexually abused minors. These actions stand in stark contrast to John Paul's policies which were to protect bishop's at all costs.

Victims advocacy groups, notably SNAP, have reacted to the apostolic letter with justifiable and well-grounded skepticism. We have heard countless promises that things will change. We have heard, _ad nauseam_, empty apologies for the pain suffered by victims. Processes and diocesan offices have been set up to respond to victims. The Vatican has issued other decrees in 2001 and 2010 whereby the legal processes have been changed to provide a better response to reports of sexual abuse by clerics. The overall impact has been minimal.

A clear example of the deep-seated hypocrisy that remains is the opposition of U.S. bishops in several states to changes in state legislation that would be more favorable to victims of sexual assault. The archbishops of New York (Cardinal Timothy Dolan) and Philadelphia (Charles Chaput) are leading the other bishops in their respective ecclesiastical provinces in vicious battles to prevent any change that would benefit all sex abuse victims. They are expending unknown amounts of money on lobbyists to convince lawmakers to vote against any changes. They are using dishonest methods which include attacks on sympathetic lawmakers, flooding parishes with written documents that present blatantly dishonest and erroneous information about the possible effects of a change in the law. At the same time, these bishops are making public statements about how they support victims of sex abuse. The duplicity and dishonesty of these and other prelates is blatantly obvious to all. Yet there has been no Vatican intervention to tell them to cease and desist.

_NCR_ columnist Michael Sean Winters wrote "The document helps confront the last, critical piece of the puzzle in any effective strategy to confront the scourge of sex abuse: episcopal accountability." He is correct, but only to a limited degree. Thus far all the steps taken by bishops and popes have been administrative — promulgation of more protocols and processes. At first these were aimed exclusively at the clergy abusers but now the pope has set his sights on the bishops. That the papal sights should have been on the bishops since the problem surfaced goes without saying.

However, the last critical piece is not administrative or judicial. It is deeply attitudinal. The most glaring and scandalous deficiency has been the almost complete lack of papal and episcopal leadership in the compassionate and pastoral care of the countless victims world-wide whose lives have been so deeply wounded not only by the sexual abuse itself but by the dishonest, uncaring and destructive manner with which victims have generally been treated by the official church.

It will take more than papal pronouncements to bring about the changes in direction that are essential. It will take a fundamental change in attitude and this will not be evident as long as the hierarchy still believes that the church is a stratified society with the bishops on top and the vast majority of believers on the bottom, whose only duty, according to Pope Pius X, is to obey and docilely follow the bishops.

Taking actions against bishops is crucial. Yet it is equally vital to look deeply into the nature of the church and the meaning of priesthood to uncover the causal factors for the disastrous way the institutional church and the hierarchy have consistently and systematically mishandled this nightmare. To do so would mean taking very great risks because not too deeply beneath the surface the bishops and the church's governmental system would have to deal with the toxic virus of clericalism. Pope Francis has clearly projected a fundamental attitudinal change with his remarks and actions that openly take on clericalism, a disease that has held the church captive for centuries.

[Dominican Fr. Thomas P. Doyle is a canon lawyer and longtime advocate for victims abused by Catholic clerics. He is also co-author of the 2006 book _Sex, Priests and Secret Codes: The Catholic Church's 2,000-Year Paper Trail of Sexual Abuse_.]


----------



## Lucia




----------



## Lucia

They broadcast LIVE 24/7


----------



## Lucia

"Let's get to work" -Fr Mike Shmitz


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## Belle Du Jour

We know Our Lady is like the Moon, who simply reflects the light of the Sun/her Son and brings Him into the world.  According to St. Louis de Monfort, Christ will again come to the world through the Virgin:

https://www.catholiccompany.com/getfed/2017-eclipse-liturgical-calendar/

Upcoming eclipse on the eve of the Queenship of Mary/during the Fatima year is NOT a coincidence!


----------



## kanozas

Beautiful!!!  How incredible we are at this point in the world and August 21 is the grand eclipse.  May these events harken all people to examine themselves and hope.  I know other denominations  don't often comprehend how we see salvation but, I am humbled when I hear a faithful priest say, "I hope and pray that, in the end of my life, IF I merit heaven..."   That is a very humbled soul who realizes that G-d is He who decides EVERYTHING and that nothing should be taken for granted, not even salvation.  Not to live in fear but under His Providence, with humility and hope.

@Belle Du Jour , which site on Fatima do you prefer?  Some of them are so anti-Pope Francis or Novus Ordo  Mass and strike me as terribly partition, almost like SSPX.  






Belle Du Jour said:


> We know Our Lady is like the Moon, who simply reflects the light of the Sun/her Son and brings Him into the world.  According to St. Louis de Monfort, Christ will again come to the world through the Virgin:
> 
> https://www.catholiccompany.com/getfed/2017-eclipse-liturgical-calendar/
> 
> Upcoming eclipse on the eve of the Queenship of Mary/during the Fatima year is NOT a coincidence!


----------



## Belle Du Jour

kanozas said:


> Beautiful!!!  How incredible we are at this point in the world and August 21 is the grand eclipse.  May these events harken all people to examine themselves and hope.  I know other denominations  don't often comprehend how we see salvation but, I am humbled when I hear a faithful priest say, "I hope and pray that, in the end of my life, IF I merit heaven..."   That is a very humbled soul who realizes that G-d is He who decides EVERYTHING and that nothing should be taken for granted, not even salvation.  Not to live in fear but under His Providence, with humility and hope.
> 
> @Belle Du Jour , which site on Fatima do you prefer?  Some of them are so anti-Pope Francis or Novus Ordo  Mass and strike me as terribly partition, almost like SSPX.



I'm not a conspiracy theorist LOL.  Some of these wackos think the Vatican got rid of the real Lucia and the Lucia we saw was a fake Lucia.  Some don't think the 3rd secret has been released.  Some think there's more to the third secret.  I think we know all we need to know and if there's more it will be revealed.  I believe Russia was consecrated with the world consecration.  I don't know everything about Fatima but that's what I believe.


----------



## kanozas

Belle Du Jour said:


> I'm not a conspiracy theorist LOL.  Some of these wackos think the Vatican got rid of the real Lucia and the Lucia we saw was a fake Lucia.  Some don't think the 3rd secret has been released.  Some think there's more to the third secret.  I think we know all we need to know and if there's more it will be revealed.  I believe Russia was consecrated with the world consecration.  I don't know everything about Fatima but that's what I believe.




Yeahhh, seee, I was right to feel leary because reading some of it was pretty, I dunno.  When was the world consecration?  Was that under JPII?  Some of those Fatima sites are no different than those who believe Revelations is literal.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Just watched a documentary on the Eucharist on Amazon prime.  Didn't know Lola Falana converted to Catholicism and is a daily mass goer.    God is good!

Here's an old video of her giving her testimony: https://gloria.tv/video/y3Lsqa7dBSoB4or3zfeaET4Ub


----------



## Belle Du Jour

kanozas said:


> Yeahhh, seee, I was right to feel leary because reading some of it was pretty, I dunno.  When was the world consecration?  Was that under JPII?  Some of those Fatima sites are no different than those who believe Revelations is literal.



I'm not sure off the top of my head.


----------



## AtlantaJJ

Hi, just want to drop in and say hello. I am Catholic and was close to walking away from the faith trying to seek the Truth. But I was turned around in a way that only our Lord can do, now I am learning about the Church fathers and learning about the traditions of our faith. I've been quiet, going through some stressful times at work but I know that God answers prayers and He loves a faithful heart!! Oh, and I will not be leaving the Church that Jesus built on Peter the rock!


----------



## Belle Du Jour

AtlantaJJ said:


> Hi, just want to drop in and say hello. I am Catholic and was close to walking away from the faith trying to seek the Truth. But I was turned around in a way that only our Lord can do, now I am learning about the Church fathers and learning about the traditions of our faith. I've been quiet, going through some stressful times at work but I know that God answers prayers and He loves a faithful heart!! Oh, and I will not be leaving the Church that Jesus built on Peter the rock!



Praise the Lord!  Ironically, that was the mass reading today (about Jesus giving Peter the keys).  
For me the truth is in the Eucharist.    I'm not leaving Our Lord


----------



## AtlantaJJ

Belle Du Jour said:


> Praise the Lord!  Ironically, that was the mass reading today (about Jesus giving Peter the keys).
> For me the truth is in the Eucharist.    I'm not leaving Our Lord


I will never leave the Eucharist! I'm so grateful that the Lord is merciful and did not allow me in my confused, misinformed state to leave the faith. 
I try to read the Mass readings daily. I'm learning so much!


----------



## kanozas

There is a vein of hypocrisy running throughout Christendom which tries to pin one sin as worst than another.  The longer I live, the more nuts come out of the woodwork declaring that Obama was elected to punish America.  What do they think Trump is, then?  Their messiah saint and rescue chief?  So, you mean to tell me, it's OK for you to be a Christian and racist but pin everything bad on Obama and not see that you're doing it because he's Black?  All the gays in the world aren't going to make you do anything nasty by their existence.  What's worse than them?  Maybe creating kids out of wedlock and running through women like water?  Hiding sex trafficking?  Abandoning your wives and children, your elderly parents?  Embezzling money at your white collar jobs?  Barely blinking when Black children are murdered by police?  I'm just convinced that....sigh.  I'm more afraid of Pooky and Ray-Ray with guns and people who hide STD's from ya or other ulterior motives they may have.  Racism and money IS the G-d of the U.S. Such blindness and hoardes of Christians are a part of it.  I mean, if you're going to talk about sin, talk about ALL of it and stop this cherry-picking.  I'm sorry, but India has an ENTIRE caste of people who are "eunuch"-type gays/transgenders.  And for centuries.  Why isn't G-d flooding YOU out?  Oh, I forget, you have all types of disasters...but nobody blames your sins for it.  Just got through listening to Sadhu Sundar Selvaraj.  SMH.   These "prophets" are something else.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

kanozas said:


> There is a vein of hypocrisy running throughout Christendom which tries to pin one sin as worst than another.  The longer I live, the more nuts come out of the woodwork declaring that Obama was elected to punish America.  What do they think Trump is, then?  Their messiah saint and rescue chief?  So, you mean to tell me, it's OK for you to be a Christian and racist but pin everything bad on Obama and not see that you're doing it because he's Black?  All the gays in the world aren't going to make you do anything nasty by their existence6.  What's worse than them?  Maybe creating kids out of wedlock and running through women like water?  Abandoning your wives and children, your elderly parents?  Embezzling money at your white collar jobs?  Barely blinking when Black children are murdered by police?  I'm just convinced that....sigh.  I'm more afraid of Pooky and Ray-Ray with guns and people who hide STD's from ya or other ulterior motives they may have.  Racism and money IS the G-d of the U.S. Such blindness and hoardes of Christians are a part of it.  I mean, if you're going to talk about sin, talk about ALL of it and stop this cherry-picking.



Yes, the cherry picking is disgusting to me.  I've been watching a lot of the traditional catholics fawn over Melania because she went to a few catholic sites to pray (?photo op).  However, she is married to a man who was married before and is essentially in an illicit marriage...but all they see is a "white catholic" so they are going crazy.   I'm not trying to judge anyone (and her faith could be genuine).  It's sad but that's the way is it. White will always trump (no pun intended) black in their eyes, no matter how Christian or enlightened they say they are.  No matter how much they say that they don't see race.  They forget Jesus was probably a brown/olive-skinned Middle Eastern Jewish man.  Not the Nordic viking they love to portray Him as


----------



## kanozas

@Belle Du Jour   Bahahaha!   Did you say Nordic Viking?    But you're right!  I mean,  smh.

You know, I either heard or read where one priest said not to follow these so-called "prophecies."  I just clicked on it since it came up under Harvey and such....he said it's evil to wish harm on a nation and that's what so many of them are doing.  G-d doesn't only care about the U.S. and Israel, dang!  He's all into Kiribati and everybody else.


----------



## kanozas

@Belle Du Jour  Here's one of the offending pieces of drivel.  What are these people going on about with this bullish oligarch?  SMH.  Worship of man.  If anybody is in the spirit of anti-Christ, it's this man.  They slap "prophecy" on it and expect people to bow down.  

https://singaporechristian.com/2016/03/14/god-and-donald-trump-nita-johnson/


As time moved on the Lord continued to speak to me and something began to take shape that led to this letter.

If you want a religious man, you can have that in Ben Carson. He will be good in his place, in the season God has for him. However, God has not equipped him to do what our Nation needs at this time in history. I look for that to come later. If you want a Cyrus that will turn America back to the land of promise and deal with the high-level wickedness, you must look for the one who is anointed for this purpose: Donald Trump. The man at the top does not need a Cyrus mantel to turn America around if he is a spirit-filled Christian. He does, however if he is Trump. It’s the mantel of Cyrus that will do the work. The man simply will be a tool in God’s lofty and wise hands. I think a great pairing would be Trump as the President and Carson as the Vice President.

________

Where was their prayer over Obama who might have been used by G-d as a Cyrus or whatever???   Sigh.


----------



## Galadriel

Hello, ladies! Just checking in to give you all a big hug. Life has been BUSY but good. You are never far from my thoughts and prayers. How are you all doing?


----------



## kanozas

Galadriel said:


> Hello, ladies! Just checking in to give you all a big hug. Life has been BUSY but good. You are never far from my thoughts and prayers. How are you all doing?




Doing well.  So nice to hear from y ou!!


----------



## ang3lface816

@HappilyLiberal @kanozas @Mingus @Belle Du Jour 

I wanted to revisit this topic with you...

Last year I posted (in a nutshell) that the RCC is trying to unite all religions under Catholicism. I was called a fear mongerer, etc

Here's the proof:

http://reformingcatholicconfession.com/explanation/

October 31st, the end of the protestant reformation and RCC declaring that the protestants need to become one under the RCC.

interested to hear your thoughts?


----------



## Belle Du Jour

ang3lface816 said:


> @HappilyLiberal @kanozas @Mingus @Belle Du Jour
> 
> I wanted to revisit this topic with you...
> 
> Last year I posted (in a nutshell) that the RCC is trying to unite all religions under Catholicism. I was called a fear mongerer, etc
> 
> Here's the proof:
> 
> http://reformingcatholicconfession.com/explanation/
> 
> October 31st, the end of the protestant reformation and RCC declaring that the protestants need to become one under the RCC.
> 
> interested to hear your thoughts?



It might be better if you posted some documentation from the RCC or the Vatican?

What you posted seems to be a group of Protestants theologians. Since I'm not Protestant I can't comment on what they are or aren't trying to do.


----------



## kanozas

ang3lface816 said:


> @HappilyLiberal @kanozas @Mingus @Belle Du Jour
> 
> I wanted to revisit this topic with you...
> 
> Last year I posted (in a nutshell) that the RCC is trying to unite all religions under Catholicism. I was called a fear mongerer, etc
> 
> Here's the proof:
> 
> http://reformingcatholicconfession.com/explanation/
> 
> October 31st, the end of the protestant reformation and RCC declaring that the protestants need to become one under the RCC.
> 
> interested to hear your thoughts?




If you follow the history of the Church, it is "universal" and "one."  That's what "catholic" truly means.  Eastern and Western Churches are of the same Mother, the holy faith passed down from Jesus and the Apostles.  It is within this paradigm that the Church should be one in that same faith.   So, we all know what caused the protesting and reformation (protestant movement).  We're all grown up now...both ...but people are still dividing themselves.  I'd invite you to study either the liturgy, tenets of the faith and the doctrine under the Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic Church to see just what it is that unites and holds the faith as the only orthodox Christian faith that has come from its Jewish beginnings, as handed down by Moses.  That's truly the only way to comprehend and not to fear what the Church is because ,when people try and strike fear into others about the supposed "evil" and paganism of the faith, that's what makes it difficult and scary to hear that there is a push to unite all Christians back from heresy and division.  If you consider Church history and it's orthodox beginnings (bastion of the faith, the Eastern/Western Churches), you will see that we are the succession of Judaism, the completion as the Messiah has been promised and are awaiting His Triumphant return  (please, achot yehudiot, no debates in this one...this is a response to a specific theme asked by a fellow believer in Messiah...we all have the right to differing opinions and interpretations and I completely comprehend the rabbinical theology...with much respect, thank you).

There is one faith Jesus passed down.  Because of sin and arrogance, there was punishment(?) resulting in a painful split.  But the origins of the faith, the handing down of written scripture and holy tradition, the Doctors of the Church etc. existed long before the Reformation and hold as truth even if the so-called followers trangress against it.  Even Martin Luther still believed in the H-ly Eucharist and was a Marianist.   I only ask you to study the liturgy and tenets/doctrine so that you will see what the one faith actually is.  This is no attempt to coerce anyone nor to proselytize anyone.  It's better to know from the source with understanding within the context in which it developed.  It is not about forcing anybody because all those other churches will have to convert or be gathered in by their acceptance (for example, the Anglicans).  Fear-mongering comes in when people think it's idolatrous and anybody who is serious about his belief in G-d wishes to keep far from that (and in which case, the Catholic Church is not at all idolatrous...understanding) ...which is why I recommend studying to gain knowledge about  what it is all about.  You might find you agree or disagree with it but you will definitely know why/how/when of the faith within it's own context and history.  I mean, I could disagree with G-d about one of the 10 Commandments but that doesn't mean it's not truth.  It means I'm in disagreement.  BTW, I converted after 3 separate attempts and over 10  years of consideration.   No one forced me.  I hope this explains it better.  Maybe @Galadriel will chime in.


----------



## kanozas

ang3lface816 said:


> Right. Not to be disrespectful at all. But people either had to go along with the Catholic Church or be killed for entertainment.  I don't think it's in good taste to say all were in agreement. The scriptures were withheld and dissidents were persecuted. That's what created the reformation.




This,imo, is an example of needing to study the history and especially timelines.


----------



## Galadriel

cutiepiebabygirl said:


> Catholicism believes you have to go before a priest confess and request forgiveness for your sins.



We believe that we must examine our consciences and repent, asking God for forgiveness. *Part* of that process of asking for forgiveness is receiving absolution in the sacrament of confession. When I make confession, I am confessing to Christ, and the priest is there to physically represent Christ and to physically speak the words of forgiveness/absolution. A sacrament is a VISIBLE sign of an INVISIBLE reality. Thus, when visibly confessing and receiving absolution, I am participating in the invisible spiritual reality of Christ's forgiveness.

Christ gave His Apostles the authority to forgive sins: 

"And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” (Matthew 16:18-18)

The language of "binding" and "loosing" here pertains specifically to the authority to enact or condemn moral and religious teachings, actions, and doctrines.

The Apostles then passed this authority to their successors (the Bishops, known in New Testament Greek as Episkopos), and the priests who are our immediate and local representatives of the bishops, have been given this authority in the sacrament of reconciliation (confession).

I'm not sure why people are making a big deal about what Pope Francis, said, because priests have always had the authority to absolve the sin of abortion, but in the past the Bishop who oversaw your region would be the one you would confess to (and this also goes for any sin of murder), however since abortion unfortunately is so prevalent, it becomes impractical for so many to go to an individual bishop who oversees a diocese of thousands or hundreds of thousands, and so the bishop's priests within his diocese are extended this particular task so that absolution could be dispensed even quicker.


----------



## Galadriel

beingofserenity said:


> True they were unified, but is that possibly because most were not given access to the Bible? To read for themselves.



It's not so much an issue of access, as if the Church had the Bible under lock and key, snatching it away from people, but a lot of people in the 15th century were illiterate, with the exception of those who did go to schools run by the church, or those fortunate enough to be born into families where they had the wealth and means to gain an education and hire tutors, etc. The Church didn't keep the Bible from anyone, in fact, if you research the history, you'll see some of the earliest writings and texts from women (Middle ages, onward) were women educated by the Church and quoting the Bible. So first, I think you have to take into account that there wasn't widespread literacy in the West to the extent we have it now. Secondly, the printing press didn't exist until 1440, so before this year, Bibles were hand-copied and expensive to produce. That's why it was very common to have "a family Bible" which an entire family could share and pass down. 

I think the issue isn't so much about "reading the Bible for one's self," but asserting that my individual interpretation of the Bible is THE official interpretation OVER the wisdom of Tradition and dogma. I believe @Honey Bee mentioned that a lot of stuff has been hashed out, debated, documented and studied in Catholicism--plus we have Apostolic Tradition guiding us. So if I come along in 2017 asserting that everyone was wrong for 2,000 years and *I* am right--it's kind of unlikely that the the great Fathers, Doctors, Apostles, etc. got it wrong, and suddenly I'm setting the standard for Biblical interpretation or doctrine.

I think such an underlying point of view contributes to disunity as well as conflicting views. Just think, John Calvin and the Calvinists believe we are depraved and predestined to either Heaven or Hell, without free will or choice. While John Wesley (founder of the Methodists) believed in the opposite. Who is correct? On whose side was the Holy Spirit? Logically, two opposite views can't both be true or correct, so which is it? This is why there needs to be a definitive authority on interpretation and doctrine.


----------



## Galadriel

beingofserenity said:


> I'm not convinced Christ established any church..



Good news, He has 

And you can recognize Christ's Church by its four marks.

His Church is: one, holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.

Christ gave His Apostles the authority to lead, teach, and guide the Church, and the Apostles passed this on to their successors (in New Testament Greek, they are Episkopos, or Overseers, and today we call them Bishops). Our bishops can trace their line of succession directly to Peter and the Apostles.


----------



## ang3lface816

The source I posted today is not protestant. It is a piece written urging protestants to come back to the "mother church".

Once again not to offend, but that's the Catholic interpretation that it is the faith directly handed down from Christ.

The voyages to America which resulted in the transatlantic slave trade were financed by the government (which at the time, united church and state) and therefore the RCC. The RCC has also funded and enforced genocides in recent history, see The Dirty War in Argentina (approximately 30 years ago) in which Francis took part in.

I know we all have our various faiths and beliefs but I just wanted to provide additional information because just a year ago it seemed impossible. Now with the recent hurricanes and Natural disasters people are ready to do something/anything to prevent further destruction. The European Union recently turned to Pope Francis regarding the struggling block. Lots of things are going on that show this is all shaping up very nicely to be a one world union. As we can see, America has gone from a very liberal nation to suddenly wanting to get back to "biblical principals", even mentioning bringing back public stoning ( see recent quotes from Alabama governor Roy Moore http://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/2017/09/garrison_keillor_maybe_roy_moo.html for things like cursing and breaking the Sunday "sabbath". )

With Trumps election, the evangelicals now have a lot of influence and the government seems pretty close to uniting church and state. You don't have to search deeply to find similar statements from others in Congress.

Deeply troubling is the fact that Francis wants to silence every voice but the RCC... calling fundamental bible believers terrorists and seeking to censor freedom of press and speech. These are similar tactics used in the dark ages.  I agree that there was wide spread illiteracy, but to say only the church can interpret scripture when the Bible makes it clear that the Holy Spirit often imparts understanding to even the unlearned is...a little hard to digest.

I disagree with a person having "authority" to forgive sins when the bible specifically says that blasphemy. I do not understand how going against what scripture says indicates the true faith?  How is it that the RCC is the only true interpreter but then goes on to place tradition on the same level, if not higher than the scriptures? The Bible says we are not to hold tradition over scripture (Mark 7).


----------



## ang3lface816

Galadriel said:


> It's not so much an issue of access, as if the Church had the Bible under lock and key, snatching it away from people, but a lot of people in the 15th century were illiterate, with the exception of those who did go to schools run by the church, or those fortunate enough to be born into families where they had the wealth and means to gain an education and hire tutors, etc. The Church didn't keep the Bible from anyone, in fact, if you research the history, you'll see some of the earliest writings and texts from women (Middle ages, onward) were women educated by the Church and quoting the Bible. So first, I think you have to take into account that there wasn't widespread literacy in the West to the extent we have it now. Secondly, the printing press didn't exist until 1440, so before this year, Bibles were hand-copied and expensive to produce. That's why it was very common to have "a family Bible" which an entire family could share and pass down.
> 
> I think the issue isn't so much about "reading the Bible for one's self," but asserting that my individual interpretation of the Bible is THE official interpretation OVER the wisdom of Tradition and dogma. I believe @Honey Bee mentioned that a lot of stuff has been hashed out, debated, documented and studied in Catholicism--plus we have Apostolic Tradition guiding us. So if I come along in 2017 asserting that everyone was wrong for 2,000 years and *I* am right--it's kind of unlikely that the the great Fathers, Doctors, Apostles, etc. got it wrong, and suddenly I'm setting the standard for Biblical interpretation or doctrine.
> 
> I think such an underlying point of view contributes to disunity as well as conflicting views. Just think, John Calvin and the Calvinists believe we are depraved and predestined to either Heaven or Hell, without free will or choice. While John Wesley (founder of the Methodists) believed in the opposite. Who is correct? On whose side was the Holy Spirit? Logically, two opposite views can't both be true or correct, so which is it? This is why there needs to be a definitive authority on interpretation and doctrine.



Sda definitely has definitive interpretation of the scriptures. The reformation was progressive, light was revealed that had currently not been understood. The true church of God, is the one keeps his commandments and has the testimony of Jesus. Catholicism was not the only faith that lasted throughout the ages, again that is Catholic doctrine.  You can't just take ownership of apostles and say, see they are from our church. Pope is not an office mentioned in scripture.


----------



## kanozas

The RCC turned an absolute blinded eye towards slavery of Indigenous Americans and Africans.  Absolutely!  I do not support Junipero Serro being beatified at all, do not support the history of Indian Mission at all.  He was over the Californian Missions and I'm against the abuse and forced attendance at Catholic schools in Canada and the U.S. and elsewhere.   Sorry, but look at who took a Middle-eastern faith and hijacked it with racist flavor?  Shrugs.   But the thing is, White Protestants had slaves and did all kinds of evil things...are all the Protestant churches false as a result?  No.  There is the truth...then there is what you do or do not do, whether you wear the cloak or not.   People can turn others away, for sure.  It's not right and wrongs need to be corrected.  Many of them have been.  Some remain.  But Christ has never changed.    The ladies here are pointing to the unchanging One of the Ark.

The Popes are the successors of St. Peter.  Jesus gave him the keys.  Shrugs.  There are many popes (lesser popes such as with the Coptics etc.) but there is one Vicar of Christ on earth and that is the one to whom Jesus gave the keys.  They defer to his Office.  It is absolutely scriptural.  That's why an understanding of the history is essential.  The councils cannot be stricken from history and the H-ly Spirit has led the Church according to Christ's promise.  That doesn't mean that people within the Church aren't going to sin.  That should be obvious lol!  But that's everywhere and in all religions.


----------



## Galadriel

ang3lface816 said:


> Sda definitely has definitive interpretation of the scriptures.



Really? Because Ellen White (the founder of SDA) has had several *failed prophecies*, and early SDA theology *denied the doctrine of the Trinity*, and many still *deny the deity of Jesus Christ *(very similar in this respect to Jehovah's Witness belief). This raises several red flags, even for traditional/mainstream Protestant denominations.



ang3lface816 said:


> The reformation was progressive, light was revealed that had currently not been understood. The true church of God, is the one keeps his commandments and has the testimony of Jesus.



If this is so, then where were the SDA's in the year 1300 AD ? 1100 AD? 900 AD ? 400 AD? 200 AD? 100 AD? The answer is NOWHERE. But the Catholic Church was. And we have 2,000 years of *unbroken* succession straight from Christ and the Apostles which is historically verifiable.




ang3lface816 said:


> Catholicism was not the only faith that lasted throughout the ages, again that is Catholic doctrine.



No, it's just plain historical research.



ang3lface816 said:


> You can't just take ownership of apostles and say, see they are from our church. Pope is not an office mentioned in scripture.



We didn't take ownership of the Apostles--they took ownership of us. 2,000 years later, we're still here taking care of the churches they built, the communities they established, and holding to the doctrines they gave us.

Pope means "Papa" or "Daddy," named so in reference to St. Paul the Apostle calling himself our spiritual father: 

*1 Corinthians 4:15-16* I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you as my beloved children. Even if you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. Therefore I urge you to imitate me.…

The Apostles, and the men that the Apostles ordained as Overseers to take their places, were seen as spiritual fathers and affectionately called by Christians "Papas" or "Daddies," from which the word "Pope" is derived. The Pope is the Bishop of Rome, and Bishops (in the New Testament this is the Greek word, _Episkopos_) are the Overseers, and this office is definitely established and blessed by the Apostles. And, of course, the FIRST Pope is St. Peter the Apostle himself.


----------



## Saravana

I was raised Catholic and am very familiar with the thought system.

I left the church long ago and recently became born again, but not as a Catholic. I do make occasional forays to Catholic churches for special reasons (relatives funerals or mass remembrances) but I no longer fit in, though I do know plenty of Catholics who are wonderful people and no doubt are saved and will go to Heaven because God knows what is in their heart.


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## Saravana

Deleted


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## SmileyNY

kanozas said:


> everything


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## Belle Du Jour

ang3lface816 said:


> The source I posted today is not protestant. It is a piece written urging protestants to come back to the "mother church".



Please check your source again: http://reformingcatholicconfession.com/committees/
These aren't Catholics


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Saravana said:


> It is not biblical for the Catholic church to decree that one HAS to go through a priest to get forgiveness of sin.  Nowhere does it say so in the bible. The issue with the Catholic church and I say this with love is that it has added too many things to The Word.



Historically, Catholics created the canon of scripture ie the Bible...Also, Martin Luther removed 7 books because they (surprise surprise) confirmed church teachings.

As far as "adding" things, sola scriptura isn't biblical.  The faith (Jewish and Christian) were handed down orally as well as written.


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## Belle Du Jour

ang3lface816 said:


> *Sda definitely has definitive interpretation of the scriptures. The reformation was progressive, light was revealed that had currently not been understood.* The true church of God, is the one keeps his commandments and has the testimony of Jesus. Catholicism was not the only faith that lasted throughout the ages, again that is Catholic doctrine.  You can't just take ownership of apostles and say, see they are from our church. Pope is not an office mentioned in scripture.



So, it's your belief that God allowed the church to be in error for 1500-1800 years until the reformers and Ellen White came along?  Jesus Christ fulfilled the scriptures period.  There will be no further revelation after Jesus.  The reason why SDA, Mormons, etc are seriously questionable is because their founders came along and claimed to have more "definitive interpretation" of scripture.  Also there's a big difference between 2000+ years (RCC) and 150 years (SDA,LDS,etc)...

I'm curious, how do you or SDAs in general feel about Orthodox Christians?  They split from the RCC in the 1000s.  In what box do you place them?


----------



## Galadriel

Saravana said:


> It is not biblical for the Catholic church to decree that one HAS to go through a priest to get forgiveness of sin.  Nowhere does it say so in the bible. The issue with the Catholic church and I say this with love is that it has added too many things to The Word.



John 20:21-23 

Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! *As the Father has sent me, I am sending you*.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “*Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven*.”

Matthew 16:17-19

Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the *keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will bed bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.*”

Peter, as a Jew, and Jesus as King of the Jews, immediately knew and understood this Judaic concept of the "Keys" of the Kingdom. It set Peter as the King's (Jesus's) stewart, and what did a stewart do? He ran things in the name of the King with the appropriate authority granted him directly by the King. Also, in rabbinical teaching, "binding and loosing" has great significance--to bind and loose means to have moral and religious authority.

Jesus clearly established an office of authority with Peter and the Apostles, which includes moral and teaching authority over the Church, and the authority to forgive sins in His name "If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." (John 20:23).

So no, Catholics didn't randomly wake up one day and decided this existed. This is something clearly established in Scripture, by Christ himself, and passed on to the Apostles. The Apostles ordained Overseers (Bishops) to succeed them in their leadership roles and it has continued in an unbroken line of succession for 2,000 years.


----------



## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> Historically, Catholics created the canon of scripture ie the Bible...Also, Martin Luther removed 7 books because they (surprise surprise) confirmed church teachings.
> 
> As far as "adding" things, sola scriptura isn't biblical.  The faith (Jewish and Christian) were handed down orally as well as written.



And, the Bible itself does not even teach Sola Scriptura. So where did that come from? A guy in 1500's Europe named Martin Luther--not the Bible.


----------



## dicapr

Galadriel said:


> Really? Because Ellen White (the founder of SDA) has had several *failed prophecies*, and early SDA theology *denied the doctrine of the Trinity*, and many still *deny the deity of Jesus Christ *(very similar in this respect to Jehovah's Witness belief). This raises several red flags, even for traditional/mainstream Protestant denominations.
> 
> 
> 
> If this is so, then where were the SDA's in the year 1300 AD ? 1100 AD? 900 AD ? 400 AD? 200 AD? 100 AD? The answer is NOWHERE. But the Catholic Church was. And we have 2,000 years of *unbroken* succession straight from Christ and the Apostles which is historically verifiable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, it's just plain historical research.
> 
> 
> 
> We didn't take ownership of the Apostles--they took ownership of us. 2,000 years later, we're still here taking care of the churches they built, the communities they established, and holding to the doctrines they gave us.
> 
> Pope means "Papa" or "Daddy," named so in reference to St. Paul the Apostle calling himself our spiritual father:
> 
> *1 Corinthians 4:15-16* I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you as my beloved children. Even if you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. Therefore I urge you to imitate me.…
> 
> The Apostles, and the men that the Apostles ordained as Overseers to take their places, were seen as spiritual fathers and affectionately called by Christians "Papas" or "Daddies," from which the word "Pope" is derived. The Pope is the Bishop of Rome, and Bishops (in the New Testament this is the Greek word, _Episkopos_) are the Overseers, and this office is definitely established and blessed by the Apostles. And, of course, the FIRST Pope is St. Peter the Apostle himself.



I know that you are defending your
denomination from misinformation but at the same time please do not spread misinformation about another denomination while doing it. I was raised SDA and the idea that they deny the deity of Christ is just preposterous. The deity of Christ as the Son of God is one of the fundamental beliefs of the modern church.

Christians are so busy trying to be “right” that we forget that our main purpose is to be “right “ with God. We must all walk the path laid out for us. We will be judged on how well we’ll obey the leading of God not whose church/theology has it all right. Humans are flawed and it stands that each denomination is flawed in some way-Catholic and Protestant. I’m sure in heaven their will be people of varying denominations and beliefs who were faithful to the truth they knew and followed God with all their hearts. I’m so glad God judges and not man!


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## Galadriel

dicapr said:


> I know that you are defending your
> denomination from misinformation but at the same time please do not spread misinformation about another denomination while doing it. I was raised SDA and the idea that they deny the deity of Christ is just preposterous. The deity of Christ as the Son of God is one of the fundamental beliefs of the modern church.
> 
> Christians are so busy trying to be “right” that we forget that our main purpose is to be “right “ with God. We must all walk the path laid out for us. We will be judged on how well we’ll obey the leading of God not whose church/theology has it all right. Humans are flawed and it stands that each denomination is flawed in some way-Catholic and Protestant. I’m sure in heaven their will be people of varying denominations and beliefs who were faithful to the truth they knew and followed God with all their hearts. I’m so glad God judges and not man!



I agree that some SDA groups do hold to the Trinity, but *not* all do, in fact, most SDA prior to the 1890's rejected the Trinity, though Adventist preachers like A.T. Jones managed to bring in a more mainstream view of the Trinity in SDA theology. The reason why you'll find strains of SDA beliefs parallel to Jehovah's Witness belief (and Jehovah's Witness do reject the Trinity and the deity of Christ) because both JW's and SDA originated from the "Advent Movement" of the 1800's and are based on the teachings of a baptist preacher named William Miller.

Also according to SDA's own official website where they proclaim their beliefs, there are at least two errors made.

1. That the souls goes to sleep or "unconsciousness" at death, which is called "Soul Sleep" and doesn't wake up until the Resurrection, which is a false belief, because the soul is *immediately* judged by Jesus Christ at the moment of death and either goes to Heaven or Hell. This is the particular judgment or personal judgment.

Quote (from adventist.org): "The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious state for all people."

2. That Christ will return, only to take the "living righteous" and "resurrected righteous," leave Hell on earth for 1,000 years, then return again to resurrect the unrighteous. Christ's Second Coming will be ONCE and FINAL, and  the living and the dead (both righteous and unrighteous) will be judged publicly...aka the General Judgment.

Quote (from adventist.org): "When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to meet their Lord. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unrighteous, will take place a thousand years later."


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## msbettyboop

Meh. The hand basket looks more interesting...


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## dicapr

Galadriel said:


> I agree that some SDA groups do hold to the Trinity, but *not* all do, and *those* were the ones I spoke of when I made my statement. The reason why you'll find strains of SDA beliefs parallel to Jehovah's Witness belief (and Jehovah's Witness do reject the Trinity and the deity of Christ) because both JW's and SDA originated from the "Advent Movement" of the 1800's and are based on the teachings of a baptist preacher named William Miller.
> 
> Also according to SDA's own official website where they proclaim their beliefs, there are at least two errors made.
> 
> 1. That the souls goes to sleep or "unconsciousness" at death, and doesn't wake up until the Resurrection, which is a false belief, because the soul is *immediately* judged by Jesus Christ at the moment of death and either goes to Heaven or Hell. This is the particular judgment or personal judgment.
> 
> Quote (from adventist.org): "The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious state for all people."
> 
> 2. That Christ will return, only to take the "living righteous" and "resurrected righteous," leave Hell on earth for 1,000 years, then return again to resurrect the unrighteous. Christ's Second Coming will be ONCE and FINAL, and  the living and the dead (both righteous and unrighteous) will be judged publicly...aka the General Judgment.
> 
> Quote (from adventist.org): "When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to meet their Lord. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unrighteous, will take place a thousand years later."



There are not some SDA groups there is just one. No official SDA group rejects the trinity. As far as the belief in death I feel it is a moot point.  No one will find out the truth until they die and then it’s too late to proclaim whether we go strait to heaven or resurrection will occur when Christ comes (which I believe) it has nothing to do with salvation and is only a point to argue our own “rightness” rather than concentration on being right with God. Because if we have failed to make God our everything when we go to heaven will not be our issue. 

I’ve got no issue with Catholics Christians. Some of the most Christ-like individuals I’ve met have practiced Catholicism. I can say the same thing of SDA, some Holiness, etc. Everyone has a different walk and cross to bear and it is my hope to see all of my brothers and sisters in the next world. When we get there is no consequence to me so long as we get there.


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## afrofaithful

msbettyboop said:


> Meh. The hand basket looks more interesting...





Interesting thread. I don't know much about Catholicism, but I was raised in an apostolic church. 

I no longer go


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## Saravana

Galadriel said:


> John 20:21-23
> 
> Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! *As the Father has sent me, I am sending you*.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “*Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven*.”



This is, unfortunately, one of the passages  the Catholic church has ran away with and used and abused to subjugate the faithful. There are 3 issues with this:

1)  Jesus was speaking to his disciples which he had personally handpicked. Why do Catholic priests or bishops feel that they are personally handpicked by Jesus with power to forgive or not forgive sins and that this is their exclusive prerogative?  That passage could apply to ANYONE who has received the Holy Spirit, not just Catholic ordained clergy.

2)  In light of the Our Father's Prayer given by Jesus, where it states: And forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us, would it be wise for catholic clergy or to anyone for that matter to not forgive the sins of others?

3) for this 1 (one) passage that appears to give carte blanche to Jesus' disciples to not forgive sins if they choose so, there are 10 passages that  do not confine the forgiveness to the whims of disciples. There are so many passages that say that forgiveness of our sins comes from God and  Jesus sacrifice on the cross for us and our confession and repentance


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## Saravana

Galadriel said:


> *Matthew 16:17-19
> 
> Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will bed bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.*”
> 
> Peter, as a Jew, and Jesus as King of the Jews, immediately knew and understood this Judaic concept of the "Keys" of the Kingdom. It set Peter as the King's (Jesus's) stewart, and what did a stewart do? He ran things in the name of the King with the appropriate authority granted him directly by the King. Also, in rabbinical teaching, "binding and loosing" has great significance--to bind and loose means to have moral and religious authority.
> 
> Jesus clearly established an office of authority with Peter and the Apostles, which includes moral and teaching authority over the Church, and the authority to forgive sins in His name "If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." (John 20:23).
> 
> So no, Catholics didn't randomly wake up one day and decided this existed. This is something clearly established in Scripture, by Christ himself, and passed on to the Apostles. The Apostles ordained Overseers (Bishops) to succeed them in their leadership roles and it has continued in an unbroken line of succession for 2,000 years.



I heard this line quite a bit as a justification for the superior authority of the Catholic church over ALL other churches when I was growing up.   Here are my thoughts:

The passage you quoted has to be understood in context. *Matthew 16: 13-19*

_*When Jesus and his disciples were near the town of Caesarea Philippi, he asked them, “What do people say about the Son of Man?”  The disciples answered, “Some people say you are John the Baptist or maybe Elijah or Jeremiah or some other prophet.”   Then Jesus asked them, “But who do you say I am?”  Simon Peter spoke up, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”  Jesus told him: Simon, son of Jonah, you are blessed! You didn’t discover this on your own. It was shown to you by my Father in heaven. So I will call you Peter, which means “a rock.” On this rock I will build my church, and death itself will not have any power over it.  I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and God in heaven will allow whatever you allow on earth. But he will not allow anything that you don’t allow.*
_
I do not take the above passage to mean that any and all those who claim to be successors of Peter form the church Jesus spoke of.  I am sure you are aware that some of the popes that have headed the Catholic church were anything but holy.

Taken in context, what Jesus is saying is that a church that sees Him as the Messiah and the Son of the Living God (the way Peter saw Him)  is a rock on whom he builds his church and to whom he will give the "keys".

Edited for errors...


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## bajandoc86

There are no SDA groups. Seventh-Day Adventists are of one body/church/demonination. There are several Sabbath-keeping denominations of which the SDA church is one.

That's all I have to say.


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## Begoody

Saravana said:


> Taken in context, what Jesus is saying is that a church that sees Him as the Messiah and the Son of the Living God (the way Peter saw Him)  is a rock on whom he builds his church and to whom he will give the "keys".
> 
> Edited for errors...



The primacy of Peter, and the fact that our Lord chose him to be the head of His Church is made clearer still when, after the resurrection, in John 21: 15-18 Christ asks him 3 times if he loved him, and commands him to " feed my lambs" and " look after my sheep".Who is usually in charge of the sheep? The Shepherd.
Also, in addition to what was mentioned up thread, when Christ tells Peter that he will be given the keys to the Kingdom... please note the typology. Protestantism often ignores the mirroring of the Old Testament in The New. The verse in Matthew 16: 18-19 is clearer when viewed via Isaiah 22:22....I place the key of the House of David on his shoulder;should he open, no one shall close, should he close, no one shall open.


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## Belle Du Jour

If anyone is brave enough  read No Price Too High by Alex Jones. A Pentecostal Protestant minister who gave up his livelihood to convert to Catholicism. How could this have happened? He learned the history of Christianity and discovered it's catholic roots. Upon knowing the truth, he knew he couldn't go back. He as well as his family and several church members joined the Catholic Church. He died earlier this year.


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## jerseyhaircare

.


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## Galadriel

dicapr said:


> There are not some SDA groups there is just one. No official SDA group rejects the trinity.



Oh, I've come across some with some funky views on the Trinity, especially if they crossed over into SDA from being Jehovah's Witness (both denominations were born from the same Advent Movement of the 1800's based on the teachings of William Miller). However, I think after A.T. Jones, the Adventists moved more toward acceptance of the Trinity, which actually IMHO is a good thing  If I were to ask my grandmother (who is SDA) about the Trinity, she'd plainly explain that she believes in the Trinity, no problem. Unfortunately, there are some SDA I've had discussions of this nature with who kind of went off sideways, and I suspect the reasoning for that is because they were holding to the *earliest* SDA views (pre-1890's) which DID reject the Trinity.



dicapr said:


> As far as the belief in death I feel it is a moot point.



I don't think it's a moot point at all. What happens to the soul after death, or the immortality of the soul, is a HUGE piece of the Christian puzzle, as Jesus Christ came and died in order to *save* our souls--hence what God teaches about the nature of the soul is of extreme importance. Neither Christ nor the Apostles taught that the soul ceased to exist or fell into a state of unconsciousness after death. When you die, Jesus Christ immediately judges your soul--no matter who you are. The soul is immortal, and death is the separation of the soul and body.



dicapr said:


> I’ve got no issue with Catholics Christians.



Great! But unfortunately some of your SDA sisters do, and turned a thread on a statement of Pope Francis to fellow Catholics on how wrong/bad Catholics are.



dicapr said:


> Some of the most Christ-like individuals I’ve met have practiced Catholicism. I can say the same thing of SDA, some Holiness, etc. Everyone has a different walk and cross to bear and it is my hope to see all of my brothers and sisters in the next world. When we get there is no consequence to me so long as we get there.



Agreed, I have seen amazing Christ-like individuals who were Catholic, Evangelical, Methodist, etc. I have even visited Protestant churches with friends and family (in fact, I'm the only Catholic in my family), so my intention is not to say SDA aren't Christian, but if some SDA person (not you in particular) is going to come out swinging against Catholicism then perhaps that person needs to take a step back and look at the order of their own house, yeah?


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## dicapr

Galadriel said:


> Oh, I've come across some with some funky views on the Trinity, especially if they crossed over into SDA from being Jehovah's Witness (both denominations were born from the same Advent Movement of the 1800's based on the teachings of William Miller). However, I think after A.T. Jones, the Adventists moved more toward acceptance of the Trinity, which actually IMHO is a good thing  If I were to ask my grandmother (who is SDA) about the Trinity, she'd plainly explain that she believes in the Trinity, no problem. Unfortunately, there are some SDA I've had discussions of this nature with who kind of went off sideways, and I suspect the reasoning for that is because they were holding to the *earliest* SDA views (pre-1890's) which DID reject the Trinity.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think it's a moot point at all. What happens to the soul after death, or the immortality of the soul, is a HUGE piece of the Christian puzzle, as Jesus Christ came and died in order to *save* our souls--hence what God teaches about the nature of the soul is of extreme importance. Neither Christ nor the Apostles taught that the soul ceased to exist or fell into a state of unconsciousness after death. When you die, Jesus Christ immediately judges your soul--no matter who you are. The soul is immortal, and death is the separation of the soul and body.
> 
> 
> 
> Great! But unfortunately some of your SDA sisters do, and turned a thread on a statement of Pope Francis to fellow Catholics on how wrong/bad Catholics are.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed, I have seen amazing Christ-like individuals who were Catholic, Evangelical, Methodist, etc. I have even visited Protestant churches with friends and family (in fact, I'm the only Catholic in my family), so my intention is not to say SDA aren't Christian, but if some SDA person (not you in particular) is going to come out swinging against Catholicism then perhaps that person needs to take a step back and look at the order of their own house, yeah?



I think Christians need to stop coming out swinging-period. As for the death issue we all believe in judgement and reward and punishment. The timing really doesn’t matter in the long run in my opinion. There is no dogmatic quiz that we must pass to be saved. We must just obey the two great commandments-Love God
with our everything and love our neighbors as ourselves (paraphrasing). Any other “rightness” or “ wrongness” will be sorted
out by the one true Judge. And He seems to be more forgiving of honest errors than we humans are. 

The funny thing is that the need to be the one true practice of Christianity is something Catholics and SDA seem to have in common. But it is something I reject because it seems to get in the way of the second great commandment to love our neighbors. It becomes about proving our rightness over encouraging each other to live a life pleasing to God.


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## Enyo

Meh. Just another case of men feeling they have a right to approve or disapprove of what a woman does with her body. Asking a man for forgiveness so he can forward my request to "God"? No thanks.


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## kanozas

"The Law has not been abolished, but rather man is invited to rediscover it in the person of his Master who is its perfect fulfillment" (CCC 2053).


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## kanozas

dicapr said:


> The funny thing is that the need to be the one true practice of Christianity is something Catholics and SDA seem to have in common. But it is something I reject because it seems to get in the way of the second great commandment to love our neighbors. It becomes about proving our rightness over encouraging each other to live a life pleasing to God.



Since SDA is a child of the Reformation, they are only seemingly in common on a very superficial appearance being that there was one Church prior to the split.  Everything references the Early Church Fathers and prior to the Early Church Fathers, everything referenced Moses and the Torah (...Tanakh, with the writings later on).  The second covenant is bound with the early Church, the first with Moses and the Israelites.  There is no third.  This is why there is great emphasis placed upon the early Church.  All those councils weren't for naught.  Protestants would have NO Chrisitan religion if it were not for the Torah/Tanakh and the early Church.  Everything that has come after the "one, holy, catholic (meaning "universal"...refer to the councils and jDoctors of the Church...which are also the doctors of the faith for protestants since they come in by default of the first) and apostolic.


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## PretteePlease

This is all very interesting but why isn't this on the Christian part of the board. Like folks
 are super fast to move Kardashian threads


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## kanozas

Saravana said:


> I was raised Catholic and am very familiar with the thought system.
> 
> I left the church long ago and recently became born again, but not as a Catholic. I do make occasional forays to Catholic churches for special reasons (relatives funerals or mass remembrances) but I no longer fit in, though I do know plenty of Catholics who are wonderful people and no doubt are saved and will go to Heaven because God knows what is in their heart.



No one is saved yet, that is Calvinism.  None of us know yet who will go to Heaven, we live the faith in hope that heaven will be ours (not fear, but hope) because He is the final just Judge.  We are saved (in the end) from "shame, sin, suffering and death."  I remembered that from RCIA   But as another put it, it's "defense of the faith" and not coercion.  It's answering to negative charges against and explanation.  Consider it this way, when someone says that "sola scriptura" is the only biblical way, that "I am saved (now) by believing...," that Saturday is the only day of rest - those are absolutes.  Imagine making an absolute while telling the Church that came before it that they cannot make absolute statements on the faith that was studied and agreed upon through a series of councils with 3,500 years of Judaism to back it up. I'm afraid, we all make absolutes.

_______________________________________________________________

As for confessing to a priest, here's a short piece on the Jewishness of 'confession'
http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/1518774/jewish/Is-Confession-a-Jewish-Thing.htm


"..The first is that it serves merely as a declaration of one’s feelings of repentance. We take our thoughts more seriously when they are spoken...

.The second way to understand the function of _vidui_ is that it serves not only to reveal or reinforce our inner thoughts, but to intensify them; for when spoken, human emotions run faster and thicker....


The third perspective is most intriguing.

Close analysis of a passage in the Sefer HaChinuch (authored by an anonymous 13th-century scholar) reveals that, in his view, _vidui_ doesn’t just serve to express or intensify existent thoughts, but it is also a means of _creating_ feelings of remorse when they are sadly nonexistent...
..
_*LOL*
And here’s where attending my own lecture comes in. Upon reflection, it was then that I got the concept of vidui loud and clear. It struck me that no matter how critical or “objective” we try to be of ourselves, we are blinded by self-love which, according to King Solomon, “prevents us from seeing our shortcomings.”5_

Here's a catholic piece:
http://www.catholicfaithandreason.org/confession-of-sins---how-biblical-is-it.html
_"*Leviticus 19: 20-22:* A man who committed adultery had to bring a guilt offering for himself to the door of the tent of meeting (holy place where the ark of the covenant, which contained God’s true presence was kept).  But then it adds “*And the priest shall make atonement for him …*before the Lord for his sin…and the sin which he has committed shall be forgiven.”  (see also Leviticus 5: 5-6)  The priest could not make atonement if he were not aware of the man's sin. He is acting as a mediator for the repentant sinner.

The complaint might be, well that is the Old Testament, but now we have Jesus, who suffered for our sins.  What does the *New Testament* have to say? 

*Matthew 3: 6 (and Mk 1: 5): *“. . . they were baptized by him [John the Baptist] in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.”  So he who prepared the way for Christ, listened to confessions of sin.

John the Baptist, whom Jesus called him the greatest "among them that are born of woman," preached a baptism of repentance.  Mark tells us that ". . .  there went out to him all the country of Judea, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, *confessing their sins. *We learn in Luke's account of the Baptist that he answered many questions for the people concerning the behavior they should follow, but freely confessed that he was not the Christ (Luke 3: 16-17).  He doubtless heard countless confessions of sin, but he knew where forgiveness of sin came from for when Jesus approached he declared, "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world" (John 1: 29).  Jesus than sent his disciples to baptize throughout Judea (John 3: 22) and they too, doubtless heard the confessions of many sinners as they traveled from village to village. So Jesus used his disciples and John the precursor to hear confessions of sins, but this is not the sacrament of confession, anymore than the baptism of John was the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which came after John the Baptist's time. Let's see if the New Testament shows men receiving the authority to forgive sins in God's name.

*Matthew 9: 6-8: *Jesus tells us that He was given authority on earth to forgive sins (a power reserved to God alone) and proves it with miraculous healings and then Scripture notes this same authority was given to “men” (plural).  Is this merely a figure of speech? No, John's Gospel makes it clear Jesus intended to give this sacrament to men:

*John 20: 21-23: *In his very first Resurrection appearance our Lord gives this awesome power to his Apostles with the words:

“Receive the *Holy Spirit*. If you forgive the sins of any, they are *forgiven*; if you retain the sins of any, they are *retained*.”  How could they forgive sins if they were not confessed?  They could not.  This authority comes through the gift of the Holy Spirit which precedes it.""_


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## dicapr

kanozas said:


> Since SDA is a child of the Reformation, they are only seemingly in common on a very superficial appearance being that there was one Church prior to the split.  Everything references the Early Church Fathers and prior to the Early Church Fathers, everything referenced Moses and the Torah (...Tanakh, with the writings later on).  The second covenant is bound with the early Church, the first with Moses and the Israelites.  There is no third.  This is why there is great emphasis placed upon the early Church.  All those councils weren't for naught.  Protestants would have NO Chrisitan religion if it were not for the Torah/Tanakh and the early Church.  Everything that has come after the "one, holy, catholic (meaning "universal"...refer to the councils and jDoctors of the Church...which are also the doctors of the faith for protestants since they come in by default of the first) and apostolic.



I’m not talking religion. I’m talking about the attitudes of those willing to engage in the “Im right” argument with an attitude of superiority that confuses me. If you are persuaded in your own mind and so is the other person what’s the point? Do you really think these differences are salvation issues?  Do you think in the big picture God
really cares about sola scripture vs extra biblical writings?  Like I said upthread God is worried about our love for him and our fellow man. So long as we are following as He leads we will be ok.


----------



## kanozas

I got tagged here...this isn't in the CF???  Let me go look lol!  Can they move it...MODS??


----------



## kanozas

dicapr said:


> I’m not talking religion. I’m talking about the attitudes of those willing to engage in the “Im right” argument with an attitude of superiority that confuses me. If you are persuaded in your own mind and so is the other person what’s the point? Do you really think these differences are salvation issues?  Do you think in the big picture God
> really cares about sola scripture vs extra biblical writings?  Like I said upthread God is worried about our love for him and our fellow man. So long as we are following as He leads we will be ok.




Those still function as "absolutes" and "this way is the only way," even declaring that G-d doesn't care about xyz.  You know, the bible in a nutshell is the golden rule, "what you don't like done to you, don't do to another."  People still have to go to mikveh, pay alms, observe the feasts, stone adulteresses, stone the apostates, dress modestly with a host of fence laws to prevent people from coming close to ..." I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to sin no more and to avoid the near occasions of sin," (which is the Act of Contrition in the Catholic faith).

Matthew 5:17

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

And I tend to fully believe this.  If you' ve everj followed any observance in orthodox Judaism or even Reform, you'll see clearly, it's just about the same damned thing.  Observance, confession, High/H-ly Days/Observance, 10 Commandments to examine one's self, times of prayer (morning, noon, afternoon and for others, various other times that coincide), ...it's the same thing.  I came to that conclusion ages ago.  Of course, that's what I saw.  I can't speak for others.  All these things are important to perform, shrugs.  It's a matter of vision and exposure, I suppose.  Religion....important enough for G-d to ordain it and to demand observance of it.  You all realize, you're not held to the standard if you are not a part of it, right?  You'd have to convert.  This is defense of what Catholics hold as true, it's not telling you you have to become one.  But know, everybody makes "absolutes" of faith, practice, belief, even atheists and agnostics..."there is no G-d...I don't have to abide by that, it's probably not true..."  It's so easy to comprehend imo, esp. when things are put into proper historic perspective and context.


----------



## dicapr

kanozas said:


> Those still function as "absolutes" and "this way is the only way," even declaring that G-d doesn't care about xyz.  You know, the bible in a nutshell is the golden rule, "what you don't like done to you, don't do to another."  People still have to go to mikveh, pay alms, observe the feasts, stone adulteresses, stone the apostates, dress modestly with a host of fence laws to prevent people from coming close to ..." I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to sin no more and to avoid the near occasions of sin," (which is the Act of Contrition in the Catholic faith).
> 
> Matthew 5:17
> 
> "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
> 
> And I tend to fully believe this.  If you' ve everj followed any observance in orthodox Judaism or even Reform, you'll see clearly, it's just about the same damned thing.  Observance, confession, High/H-ly Days/Observance, 10 Commandments to examine one's self, times of prayer (morning, noon, afternoon and for others, various other times that coincide), ...it's the same thing.  I came to that conclusion ages ago.  Of course, that's what I saw.  I can't speak for others.  All these things are important to perform, shrugs.  It's a matter of vision and exposure, I suppose.  Religion....important enough for G-d to ordain it and to demand observance of it.  You all realize, you're not held to the standard if you are not a part of it, right?  You'd have to convert.  This is defense of what Catholics hold as true, it's not telling you you have to become one.  But know, everybody makes "absolutes" of faith, practice, belief, even atheists and agnostics..."there is no G-d...I don't have to abide by that, it's probably not true..."  It's so easy to comprehend imo, esp. when things are put into proper historic perspective and context.



I have absolutes for myself. I’m just not someone who feels endowed with the power to try and tell someone they must accept my belief system and my personal absolutes as their own.

I have that issue with people in general across the board. People thing they way they do things from making the  bed to how they cook to what side of the sink they place the soap dish is the only way. It drives me crazy. Because if you can’t agree with the consensus you are “wrong”
and need to be corrected. I’ve always seen the world differently from the majority and have been punished for it all my life. I just refuse to take on that attitude of my absolute rightness without giving people the room they need to live their lives as they are lead to. And no I don’t believe being dogmatically right is the end all be all of religion. I believe a righteous heart in adhering to the truth God has revealed to you is the ruler in which we will all be measured.


----------



## kanozas

dicapr said:


> I have absolutes for myself. I’m just not someone who feels endowed with the power to try and tell someone they must accept my belief system and my personal absolutes as their own.
> 
> *I have that issue with people in general across the board*. People thing they way they do things from making the  bed to how they cook to what side of the sink they place the soap dish is the only way. It drives me crazy. Because if you can’t agree with the consensus you are “wrong”
> and need to be corrected. I’ve always seen the world differently from the majority and have been punished for it all my life. I just refuse to take on that attitude of my absolute rightness without giving people the room they need to live their lives as they are lead to. And no I don’t believe being dogmatically right is the end all be all of religion. I believe a righteous heart in adhering to the truth God has revealed to you is the ruler in which we will all be measured.



So have I, which is why I don't do that.  Who here among us is telling YOU that your beliefs are wrong?  Defense of the beliefs.tenets, dogma, doctrine _differs _from someone who is judging you unfairly because of your beliefs.  Just as someone who tells Catholics their Church is wrong and  over-stepping, they are also over-stepping.  That's what non-Christians believe all day long about any Christians.

Incidentally, your last statement is in the catechism.

The Church recognizes that God does not condemn those who are innocently ignorant of the truth about his offer of salvation. Regarding the doctrine in question, the _Catechism of the Catholic Church_ (quoting Vatican II document _Lumen Gentium_, 16) states:_This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation_. (CCC 847)

John 10:10
The thief cometh not but to steal and to kill and to destroy. I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.



So, just as someone who doesn't know Him might still be saved in the end (according to living the truth in faith as much as was revealed to him) , if he did get to know Jesus, his life would have been lived more abundantly.  This is the same with people who have known Jesus and come into the fullness of the truth about the faith He gave to us and his prescriptions on worship.  Isn't it the same as one who knows Him but doesn't go to Church at all compared to the one who grows closer to Him who does attend church is thanksgiving for His sacrifice and abundant love?  The gentiles weren't close to G-d but the Jews were.  They lived the prescription handed down to them.  There are degrees of anything.

Again, this is in defense of the knowledge of the Church and the authority it has as handed down by Jesus, who handed Peter the keys.    That's an issue one would have to take up with G-d.  It's right in scripture.  Surely, not everyone believes in it, nor scripture, even in G-d.  I could have the authority to say my jellybeans are red.  Another might protest that I don't have that authority to say it.  Yet, the jellybeans are red.  The person who made and  gave them to me told me they are red and showed me.  Who takes issue with the authority of the jellybean maker?  The one who was handed down the jelly beans or the one who has no jellybeans and doesn't believe in the color "red?" Defense of the faith within ITS OWN CONTEXT is not judging those who do not find it to be truthful.


----------



## dicapr

kanozas said:


> So have I, which is why I don't do that.  Who here among us is telling YOU that your beliefs are wrong?  Defense of the beliefs.tenets, dogma, doctrine _differs _from someone who is judging you unfairly because of your beliefs.  Just as someone who tells Catholics their Church is wrong and  over-stepping, they are also over-stepping.  That's what non-Christians believe all day long about any Christians.
> 
> Incidentally, your last statement is in the catechism.
> 
> The Church recognizes that God does not condemn those who are innocently ignorant of the truth about his offer of salvation. Regarding the doctrine in question, the _Catechism of the Catholic Church_ (quoting Vatican II document _Lumen Gentium_, 16) states:_This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation_. (CCC 847)
> 
> John 10:10
> The thief cometh not but to steal and to kill and to destroy. I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
> 
> 
> 
> So, just as someone who doesn't know Him might still be saved in the end (according to living the truth in faith as much as was revealed to him) , if he did get to know Jesus, his life would have been lived more abundantly.  This is the same with people who have known Jesus and come into the fullness of the truth about the faith He gave to us and his prescriptions on worship.  Isn't it the same as one who knows Him but doesn't go to Church at all compared to the one who grows closer to Him who does attend church is thanksgiving for His sacrifice and abundant love?  The gentiles weren't close to G-d but the Jews were.  They lived the prescription handed down to them.  There are degrees of anything.
> 
> Again, this is in defense of the knowledge of the Church and the authority it has as handed down by Jesus, who handed Peter the keys.    That's an issue one would have to take up with G-d.  It's right in scripture.  Surely, not everyone believes in it, nor scripture, even in G-d.  I could have the authority to say my jellybeans are red.  Another might protest that I don't have that authority to say it.  Yet, the jellybeans are red.  The person who made and  gave them to me told me they are red and showed me.  Who takes issue with the authority of the jellybean maker?  The one who was handed down the jelly beans or the one who has no jellybeans and doesn't believe in the color "red?" Defense of the faith within ITS OWN CONTEXT is not judging those who do not find it to be truthful.



I’ve got nothing else to say. You are persuaded that your stance is correct and truly that is the end of the conversation. There is no real postitives in going back and forth about it. My statements are about human nature not Catholicism or Protestantism. I don’t need to prove you wrong to validate my “rightness.”

Like I said my focus isn’t on being “right”’or proving my rightness to man. I am focused on being right with God alone and following the path he has given me.


----------



## jerseyhaircare

Yes, please Mods. Please transfer to the Christian Forum.


----------



## ang3lface816

Galadriel said:


> Oh, I've come across some with some funky views on the Trinity, especially if they crossed over into SDA from being Jehovah's Witness (both denominations were born from the same Advent Movement of the 1800's based on the teachings of William Miller). However, I think after A.T. Jones, the Adventists moved more toward acceptance of the Trinity, which actually IMHO is a good thing  If I were to ask my grandmother (who is SDA) about the Trinity, she'd plainly explain that she believes in the Trinity, no problem. Unfortunately, there are some SDA I've had discussions of this nature with who kind of went off sideways, and I suspect the reasoning for that is because they were holding to the *earliest* SDA views (pre-1890's) which DID reject the Trinity.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think it's a moot point at all. What happens to the soul after death, or the immortality of the soul, is a HUGE piece of the Christian puzzle, as Jesus Christ came and died in order to *save* our souls--hence what God teaches about the nature of the soul is of extreme importance. Neither Christ nor the Apostles taught that the soul ceased to exist or fell into a state of unconsciousness after death. When you die, Jesus Christ immediately judges your soul--no matter who you are. The soul is immortal, and death is the separation of the soul and body.
> 
> 
> 
> Great! But unfortunately some of your SDA sisters do, and turned a thread on a statement of Pope Francis to fellow Catholics on how wrong/bad Catholics are.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed, I have seen amazing Christ-like individuals who were Catholic, Evangelical, Methodist, etc. I have even visited Protestant churches with friends and family (in fact, I'm the only Catholic in my family), so my intention is not to say SDA aren't Christian, but if some SDA person (not you in particular) is going to come out swinging against Catholicism then perhaps that person needs to take a step back and look at the order of their own house, yeah?



I guess this was aimed at me. I have no issue with Catholics. 

Not swinging at Catholics at all.  Just merely highlighting things going on in the news currently.  I explained I came back to this thread because it's the one where the previous discussion took place. But if you read back to some of my previous posts last year and those of others, you can probably find a few where people were not so kind.

I simply posted a follow up.  I couldn't hate you on the basis of that gorgeous hair alone! So please don't take it that way. I apologize if i came off the wrong way.


----------



## kanozas

Belle Du Jour said:


> If anyone is brave enough  read No Price Too High by Alex Jones. A Pentecostal Protestant minister who gave up his livelihood to convert to Catholicism. How could this have happened? He learned the history of Christianity and discovered it's catholic roots. Upon knowing the truth, he knew he couldn't go back. He as well as his family and several church members joined the Catholic Church. He died earlier this year.




I remember him but didn't know he died this year.


----------



## Saravana

deleted since the thread was moved to Catholic Forum.


----------



## Begoody

Saravana said:


> Jesus asked Peter 3 times if he loved Him, that was to absolve him of the 3 times when Peter had disown/denied Him.
> 
> _Very true, I agree. But surely Jesus could have absolved him without reference to being a shepherd. And remember He first asks if PETER loves Him " more than these" i:e the other disciples. Peter is always set apart from the rest._
> 
> The Feed my sheep does make reference to sheperding, but why are we assuming that being a sheperd is exclusive to Peter, that he is to be the only sheperd?
> _
> It is exclusive to Peter and history has proved this. Christ, after giving the keys and stating His Church would be built on Cephas/Peter, also said the gates of hell would never prevail against it. Which Church, in all of Christianity has seen empires come and go, scandals, wars, bad leaders, and yet remains standing, a visible sign throughout the ages, for over 2000 years ?? The Church that claims to be founded on Peter!! The Catholic Church.
> As I said earlier,Peter is always being set apart from the rest. Peter is the one who gets Divine Revelation and answers who Christ is. On resurrection day ,at the tomb, John gets there first but waits for Peter to enter. When Jesus is asked to pay tax, whoever asked clearly went to Peter, not the other disciples, so Peter was seen even by others outside the apostles as being a representative of Christ. Peter has the faith to walk on water ( though he wobbles! ). All throughout the gospels Peter speaks on behalf of the rest. He is the leader chosen by Christ, despite his imperfections ( cowardice, impetuousness, ignorance etc. ). Even in heaven there exists a heirachy, so why wouldn't Christ want His Church to have some semblance of one? My guardian angel does not have the same authority and powers as the archangel Michael!
> _
> Also,  in the Book of Revelation, Jesus sends a message to 7 churches.  2 of those churches he approves of totally, 5 of them He issues warning to. There is no mention of Peter's church.  None. Why? Morever, it would have been the perfect occasion for Jesus to tell all those churches to get under the authority of Peter's church who by the way had already died.



_We can only guess as to why Jesus didn't. But I think He felt he'd made it perfectly obvious. How much more explicit can you get than calling a man aside, changing his name, and telling him you want to build your Church with him? Please read the Early Church Fathers. These are men who didn't have the Bible but knew the details first hand from e.gthe apostle John. They would have had plenty of opportunities to question and clarify. But please I would advise caution when delving into the early Church...In the words of John Henry Cardinal Newman " To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant"._


----------



## Begoody

@Saravana Apologies, I thought my responses would all be within your message but in italics. Instead it's within your message as well as outside it. It's all over the place.


----------



## itsallaboutattitude

Can this be moved to CF, please and thank you.


----------



## Saravana

jerseyhaircare said:


> Yes, please Mods. Please transfer to the Christian Forum.


Why?

The Christian forum has specific rules and guidelines that would prevent this thread from being as informative and free flowing as it has been. Not everntying about Christianity needs to be discussed in the CF. Just my opinion.


----------



## jerseyhaircare

Saravana said:


> Why?
> 
> The Christian forum has specific rules and guidelines that would prevent this thread from being as informative and free flowing as it has been. Not everntying about Christianity needs to be discussed in the CF. Just my opinion.



Because it turned very biblical and it seems more at home here.


----------



## Galadriel

ang3lface816 said:


> I explained I came back to this thread because it's the one where the previous discussion took place. But if you read back to some of my previous posts last year and those of others, you can probably find a few where people were not so kind.
> 
> I simply posted a follow up.  I couldn't hate you on the basis of that gorgeous hair alone! So please don't take it that way. I apologize if i came off the wrong way.



Ah, I'm unaware of a previous discussion that may have been attached to this one so I can't really comment about that, but I do appreciate the clarification (and thank you for the compliment!). As I said a little earlier up-thread, my grandma is SDA and I've visited her SDA church--I've only had warm, welcoming experiences with them  However it's very easy for us to get defensive when certain comments are made about Catholicism because many of us hear such comments (often with antagonistic intentions) a LOT.


----------



## kanozas

dicapr said:


> I’ve got nothing else to say. You are persuaded that your stance is correct and truly that is the end of the conversation. There is no real postitives in going back and forth about it. My statements are about human nature not Catholicism or Protestantism. I don’t need to prove you wrong to validate my “rightness.”
> 
> Like I said my focus isn’t on being “right”’or proving my rightness to man. I am focused on being right with God alone and following the path he has given me.



That's  rather disingenuous and unfair being that I only give defense.  I've  also made points that WE ALL believe our way is right, I mean  everyone.  Perhaps you glossed over that?  It's  very easy to make charges against another and not see how we all fit within the very same at some point.  I reiterate like stale vomit   ( in the years I've  been on here, I have repeated ad nauseam ) that I do not proselytize....not everyone is going to be a Jew...or  a Hindu...or _______   ).  Fair discourse is actually easier.  I'm  only saying that this is what is taught and can provide the backup on the why's do the source is heard.  It serves no one for fallacies to be promoted.  My motto is pretty much, "Go to the source,"  rather than regurgitating third person which is bound to contain untruths as to what is a really taught and/or believed.  I believe in fairness even if I personally do not agree with something. Shrugs.


----------



## Lucia

ang3lface816 said:


> The source I posted today is not protestant. It is a piece written urging protestants to come back to the "mother church".
> 
> Once again not to offend, but that's the Catholic interpretation that it is the faith directly handed down from Christ.
> 
> The voyages to America which resulted in the transatlantic slave trade were financed by the government (which at the time, united church and state) and therefore the RCC. The RCC has also funded and enforced genocides in recent history, see The Dirty War in Argentina (approximately 30 years ago) in which Francis took part in.
> 
> I know we all have our various faiths and beliefs but I just wanted to provide additional information because just a year ago it seemed impossible. Now with the recent hurricanes and Natural disasters people are ready to do something/anything to prevent further destruction. The European Union recently turned to Pope Francis regarding the struggling block. Lots of things are going on that show this is all shaping up very nicely to be a one world union. As we can see, America has gone from a very liberal nation to suddenly wanting to get back to "biblical principals", even mentioning bringing back public stoning ( see recent quotes from Alabama governor Roy Moore http://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/2017/09/garrison_keillor_maybe_roy_moo.html for things like cursing and breaking the Sunday "sabbath". )
> 
> With Trumps election, the evangelicals now have a lot of influence and the government seems pretty close to uniting church and state. You don't have to search deeply to find similar statements from others in Congress.
> 
> Deeply troubling is the fact that Francis wants to silence every voice but the RCC... calling fundamental bible believers terrorists and seeking to censor freedom of press and speech. These are similar tactics used in the dark ages.  I agree that there was wide spread illiteracy, but to say only the church can interpret scripture when the Bible makes it clear that the Holy Spirit often imparts understanding to even the unlearned is...a little hard to digest.
> 
> *I disagree with a person having "authority" to forgive sins when the bible specifically says that blasphemy. I do not understand how going against what scripture says indicates the true faith?  How is it that the RCC is the only true interpreter but then goes on to place tradition on the same level, if not higher than the scriptures? The Bible says we are not to hold tradition over scripture (Mark 7)*.





Saravana said:


> *It is not biblical for the Catholic church to decree that one HAS to go through a priest to get forgiveness of sin.  Nowhere does it say so in the bible. The issue with the Catholic church and I say this with love is that it has added too many things to The Word.*



But the Bible does not say to hold scripture over tradition, nor is there a tradition that dismisses scripture they are both important one is _not_ more authoritative than the other. Where scripture is silent we have the traditions passed down from the apostles taught to them by Jesus himself.

For example the last supper is what Catholics celebrate at mass  in the sacrament of the Holy Communion, the Eucharist. It is both tradition and it’s clearly written in scripture.
There’s no scripture that says have altar calls, or describes a practice similar to what would look like altar calls, but Protestants fo this all the time in the denominational and the non denominations.
Jesus gave the apostles authority over many things and not all were written down, so why couldn’t he give the apostles the authority to forgive sins in His stead, oh that’s right He did.

In Matthew 10-3

Jesus called his twelve disciples together and gave them authority to cast out evil spirits and to heal every kind of disease and illness.  Here are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (also called Peter), then Andrew (Peter's brother), James (son of Zebedee), John (James's brother), Philip, Bartholomew, Thomas, Matthew (the tax collector), James (son of Alphaeus), Thaddaeus, Simon (the zealot), Judas Iscariot (who later betrayed him).

But Here’s Scripture on Confession

John 20:19-23

On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews,[c] Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 *If *you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”*

*you: here is referring to the apostles, mere men, who Jesus choose to establish His church. A man who gives up his life to serve God and the church (or temple OT) is usually called a Preist it’s in the Old Testament.

James 5:16
Therefore *confess your sins to each other and pray for each other *so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.


Tradition

1 Corinthians 11:2

Now I commend you for *remembering me in everything and for maintaining the traditions, just as I passed them on  to you.*


2 Thess 2:14-17

14To this He called you through our gospel, so that you may share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15Therefore, brothers, *stand firm and cling to the traditions we taught you, whether by speech or by letter.* 16Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and God our Father, who by grace has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope, 17encourage your hearts and strengthen you in* every good word and deed.*

John 20:30-31

Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.


-Why weren’t all the signs and wonders and things Jesus did written down if scripture alone were the only authority?  How about OT before it was written down it was entirely passed down through orally and through tradition.


-I would like to see some articles from reputable sources,  journalists, etc... regarding the Pope trying to silence fundamentalists. I haven’t seen or heard anything about that.

Regarding the dirty war in Argentina those military leaders were also persecuting the church and especially members of clergy. Why would the Catholic Church fund something that would ultimately destroy it.  First there’s a big difference in paying for a regime, and allegedly not standing against it strongly enough.
That’s what people held against the Argentinian branch of the Catholic Church. Please read up on who did what then in a South American country under a military regime the first thing they get rid of is God and churches. Even when clergy inter ended on behalf of prisoners they were mostly lied to and kept in the dark about what was really going on.  It’s only the people who had missing family members who alerted them to what was really going on. Preists were kidnapped, tortured and murdered too because they were suspected of helping the resistance.

http://world.time.com/2013/03/14/the-new-pope-and-argentinas-disappeared-of-the-dirty-war/


https://cruxnow.com/global-church/2...es-pope-will-declare-murdered-priests-saints/


----------



## OriginalBeauty

I have been studying and following this thread for some time.

I was raised as a Baptist.  My grandfather was a founder of the first African Baptist Church in my hometown.

But for some time I have been transfixed by Catholicism and as I study it seems to be most in line with the original intended Church. 

I do not take it lightly.  My travels have taken me to some far, far places.  However, what would you Catholic sisters recommend to someone who is interested in converting?

Also, I have two young children I would like to raise in the Church.  My husband is agnostic.  He was raised Presbyterian and prays some, but he describes himself as agnostic.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## kanozas

OriginalBeauty said:


> I have been studying and following this thread for some time.
> 
> I was raised as a Baptist.  My grandfather was a founder of the first African Baptist Church in my hometown.
> 
> But for some time I have been transfixed by Catholicism and as I study it seems to be most in line with the original intended Church.
> 
> I do not take it lightly.  My travels have taken me to some far, far places.  However, what would you Catholic .sisters recommend to someone who is interested in converting?
> 
> Also, I have two young children I would like to raise in the Church.  My husband is agnostic.  He was raised Presbyterian and prays some, but he describes himself as agnostic.
> 
> Thanks in advance.




I'm all for anyone who finds a niche in this life, whichever it is.  You can contact a local parish of interest for RCIA courses.  You'll need to study at least 6 months for the conversion.  I tried it around 3 times...over 10 years...found my niche.  It definitely is a period of reflection and study


----------



## kanozas

A few bad apples can make the whole thing look bad...regarding the Catholic Church in Latin America, bishops are usually people of means and raised in a certain class and the higher you go.  There were instances in which some countries' clergy sided with their class and the regime over the gospel.   The so-called religious dissidents are the ones disposed of...not the ones who turn a blind eye who have interests.


----------



## Saravana

Lucia said:


> But the Bible does not say to hold scripture over tradition, nor is there a tradition that dismisses scripture they are both important one is _not_ more authoritative than the other. Where scripture is silent we have the traditions passed down from the apostles taught to them by Jesus himself.
> 
> For example the last supper is what Catholics celebrate at mass  in the sacrament of the Holy Communion, the Eucharist. It is both tradition and it’s clearly written in scripture.
> There’s no scripture that says have altar calls, or describes a practice similar to what would look like altar calls, but Protestants fo this all the time in the denominational and the non denominations.
> Jesus gave the apostles authority over many things and not all were written down, so why couldn’t he give the apostles the authority to forgive sins in His stead, oh that’s right He did.
> 
> In Matthew 10-3
> 
> Jesus called his twelve disciples together and gave them authority to cast out evil spirits and to heal every kind of disease and illness.  Here are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (also called Peter), then Andrew (Peter's brother), James (son of Zebedee), John (James's brother), Philip, Bartholomew, Thomas, Matthew (the tax collector), James (son of Alphaeus), Thaddaeus, Simon (the zealot), Judas Iscariot (who later betrayed him).
> 
> But Here’s Scripture on Confession
> 
> John 20:19-23
> 
> On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews,[c] Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 *If *you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”*
> 
> *you: here is referring to the apostles, mere men, who Jesus choose to establish His church. A man who gives up his life to serve God and the church (or temple OT) is usually called a Preist it’s in the Old Testament.
> 
> James 5:16
> Therefore *confess your sins to each other and pray for each other *so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.
> 
> 
> Tradition
> 
> 1 Corinthians 11:2
> 
> Now I commend you for *remembering me in everything and for maintaining the traditions, just as I passed them on  to you.*
> 
> 
> 2 Thess 2:14-17
> 
> 14To this He called you through our gospel, so that you may share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15Therefore, brothers, *stand firm and cling to the traditions we taught you, whether by speech or by letter.* 16Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and God our Father, who by grace has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope, 17encourage your hearts and strengthen you in* every good word and deed.*
> 
> John 20:30-31
> 
> Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
> 
> 
> -Why weren’t all the signs and wonders and things Jesus did written down if scripture alone were the only authority?  How about OT before it was written down it was entirely passed down through orally and through tradition.
> 
> 
> -I would like to see some articles from reputable sources,  journalists, etc... regarding the Pope trying to silence fundamentalists. I haven’t seen or heard anything about that.
> 
> Regarding the dirty war in Argentina those military leaders were also persecuting the church and especially members of clergy. Why would the Catholic Church fund something that would ultimately destroy it.  First there’s a big difference in paying for a regime, and allegedly not standing against it strongly enough.
> That’s what people held against the Argentinian branch of the Catholic Church. Please read up on who did what then in a South American country under a military regime the first thing they get rid of is God and churches. Even when clergy inter ended on behalf of prisoners they were mostly lied to and kept in the dark about what was really going on.  It’s only the people who had missing family members who alerted them to what was really going on. Preists were kidnapped, tortured and murdered too because they were suspected of helping the resistance.
> 
> http://world.time.com/2013/03/14/the-new-pope-and-argentinas-disappeared-of-the-dirty-war/
> 
> 
> https://cruxnow.com/global-church/2...es-pope-will-declare-murdered-priests-saints/



You quoted  _James 5:16
Therefore *confess your sins to each other and pray for each other *so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective._

The verse before this, James 5:15
_And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up.* If they have sinned, they will be forgiven.*
_
Doesn't the above show that priests are not needed for confession and forgiveness of sins since we can confess our sins to each  other and give prayers offered in faith?

And you said that "Jesus called his twelve disciples together and gave them authority to cast out evil spirits and to heal every kind of disease and illness."  I don't disagree with you. but  I am going to need you to answer this question. Since Catholic priests and popes are claiming to be the sole direct descendants and representants of the 12 disciples, when was the last time the Pope or any Pope has cast out evil spirits and healed every kind of disease and illness? When was the last time a priest has done that?

ETA: Not saying priests are not needed as spiritual guides of their churches. I have known wonderful priests for whom I have the UTMOST respect.  I am just questioning the idea that they are the only ones that can forgive sins.


----------



## Belle Du Jour

OriginalBeauty said:


> I have been studying and following this thread for some time.
> 
> I was raised as a Baptist.  My grandfather was a founder of the first African Baptist Church in my hometown.
> 
> But for some time I have been transfixed by Catholicism and *as I study it seems to be most in line with the original intended Church*.
> 
> I do not take it lightly.  My travels have taken me to some far, far places.  However, what would you Catholic sisters recommend to someone who is interested in converting?
> 
> Also, I have two young children I would like to raise in the Church.  My husband is agnostic.  He was raised Presbyterian and prays some, but he describes himself as agnostic.
> 
> Thanks in advance.



That is exactly what drew me in to Catholicism (I have no doubt that it is the Church Christ established).  Also there are so many varying Protestant beliefs--each claiming to be the "correct" Biblical interpretation--that it doesn't make any sense.  I'd rather go with the original.  Also the stripping away of various beautiful traditions with Jewish roots bothered me.  Also the high point of any Christian service--Holy Communion--has been totally stripped away in many Protestant services. It's more of an afterthought.  There's a reason Our Lord instituted Holy Communion on the night before He died.  This was His final act before His death.  Not.  A.  Random.  Coincidence.  

You can definitely take classes at your local parish called RCIA as Kanozas said.  If you're still in the contemplation stage, you can read Rome Sweet Home and No Price Too High about Protestant ministers who left their livelihood once they discovered the truth about the origins of Christianity.  Catholicism for Dummies is also really good for explaining the basics.   I am a convert and would be happy to answer any specific questions you have


----------



## Belle Du Jour

Saravana said:


> You quoted  _James 5:16
> Therefore *confess your sins to each other and pray for each other *so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective._
> 
> The verse before this, James 5:15
> _And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up.* If they have sinned, they will be forgiven.*
> _
> Doesn't the above show that priests are not needed for confession and forgiveness of sins since we can confess our sins to each  other and give prayers offered in faith?
> 
> And you said that "Jesus called his twelve disciples together and gave them authority to cast out evil spirits and to heal every kind of disease and illness."  I don't disagree with you. but  I am going to need you to answer this question. Since Catholic priests and popes are claiming to be the sole direct descendants and representants of the 12 disciples, when was the last time the Pope or any Pope has cast out evil spirits and healed every kind of disease and illness? When was the last time a priest has done that?
> 
> ETA: Not saying priests are not needed as spiritual guides of their churches. I have known wonderful priests for whom I have the UTMOST respect.  I am just questioning the idea that they are the only ones that can forgive sins.



In a sacramental sense, any ordained priest has the authority to forgive sins in persona Christi, in the person of Christ.  When we go to Confession, the priest is the agent acting on behalf of God.  God forgives my sin.  The Bible talks about the type of sin that leads to death (mortal sin)--these can only be forgiven through the sacrament of confession.  We are not in a state of grace after committing mortal sin and need a sacrament to restore that grace and that relationship with God.  The priest is a conduit of this grace.  

As far as priests casting out evil spirits, um, that actually happens.  There are more exorcisms now than ever because people are getting into that more.  And we have the sacrament of anointing of the sick--any ordained priest has the ability to anoint the sick with holy oils.  All of the Sacraments practivcd by the Church were established by Jesus Himself.  We didn't add anything or take anything away.


----------



## Lucia

Saravana said:


> You quoted  _James 5:16
> Therefore *confess your sins to each other and pray for each other *so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective._
> 
> The verse before this, James 5:15
> _And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up.* If they have sinned, they will be forgiven.*
> _
> Doesn't the above show that priests are not needed for confession and forgiveness of sins since we can confess our sins to each  other and give prayers offered in faith?
> 
> And you said that "Jesus called his twelve disciples together and gave them authority to cast out evil spirits and to heal every kind of disease and illness."  I don't disagree with you. but  I am going to need you to answer this question. Since Catholic priests and popes are claiming to be the sole direct descendants and representants of the 12 disciples, when was the last time the Pope or any Pope has cast out evil spirits and healed every kind of disease and illness? When was the last time a priest has done that?
> 
> ETA: Not saying priests are not needed as spiritual guides of their churches. I have known wonderful priests for whom I have the UTMOST respect.  I am just questioning the idea that they are the only ones that can forgive sins.




You asked regarding James 5:
*Doesn't the above show that priests are not needed for confession and forgiveness of sins since we can confess our sins to each other and give prayers offered in faith? *

The short answer, no it does not. Let me explain why.
1. The verse before James 5:14 talks about the going to the elders to pray over them (members of the congregation) and annoint them with oil. It does not say that anyone off the street, any member of the church, or any lay person it specifies elder for a reason. Why? Because there’s a certain degree of knowledge and level of prayer an elder needs to have I mean we can and should make assumptions about their prayer lives. Mainly their prayer lives should be more intense than us regular congregation folks.
Since we are talking about the Catholic Church that would mean a Priest someone who in the Catholic church has been given certain authority through laying of hands, taking of vows, ( one of those vows being the seal of confession, he must NEVER tell what he has heard) high level studies, training and ordination.  When I say authority I mean the authority stated in the Bible in John 20 and other places in scripture, that was passed down by laying of hands from Jesus to His apostles from Jesus’ apostles to their “disciples” down through the ages, so on and so forth until now (this is also the same authority and succesion that applies to Peter and all the Popes after him) That is the unbroken chain of succession Catholics refer to. (See chart and link below)

2. To sum up the verses : verse 14 call for the elders, verse 15 prayer of faith, then in verse 16 it says therefore confess your sins to one another. After the prayer of faith not before, the context is important.
Therefore means:
for that reason; consequently.
"he was injured and therefore unable to play"
synonyms: consequently, so, as a result, hence, thus, accordingly, for that reason, ergo, that being the case, on that (from Webster’s)
In the Webster’s example both these phrases work in conjunction with each other one standing alone makes no sense. He was unable to play, why? He was injured. They can also interchanged.

That means that the previous verse is linked to, and/or contingent upon the next, they do not work independently of each other but in conjunction with each other. So  yes if you pray you will be forgiven but only if you also confess your sins to each other. Or if you confess your sins to each other and pray you will also be forgiven. That’s what Catholics do in Confession we confess to the Priest (who’s there in stead of Jesus= in persona Christi) then we pray to God, this appears to follow the scripture, and doesn’t go against it at all.

3. The most obvious reason a Preist is a man, a person first so when scripture says confess your sins to each other that does _not_ and cannot automatically exclude Priests on the basis of them just being Preists there’s nothing in those verses of James or in the Bible that refute confessing sins to Priests.


James 5:13-16

13 Are any among you suffering? They should pray. Are any cheerful? They should sing songs of praise. 14 Are any among you sick? *They should call for the elders of the church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord. *15 The prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise them up; and anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective.




http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

4.
But there’s John 20:19-23
On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews,[c] Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21 *Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld. *

^^I don’t know how more clear scripture could be, Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit upon them, and basically told them I (Jesus Christ fully a God, fully man, son of the Living God) give you my apostles the authority to forgive and not to forgive sins. Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit into them. That means He gave His Priests authority to forgive or retain sins that means authority to absolve or not absolve sins in His stead. The fact that he specifically gave this authority to the 12 is very important and significant. If Jesus wanted anyone off the street to have that authority He would have done so, but He didn’t notice He did not give this authority or others to any women. It’s really that simple. If you have another interpretation I’d love to hear it.

Next you asked another valid question:

And you said that "Jesus called his twelve disciples together and gave them authority to cast out evil spirits and to heal every kind of disease and illness."  I don't disagree with you. but  I am going to need you to answer this question.

*Since Catholic priests and popes are claiming to be the sole direct descendants and representants of the 12 disciples, when was the last time the Pope or any Pope has cast out evil spirits and healed every kind of disease and illness? When was the last time a priest has done that?*

Just to clarify that wasn’t me, I was quoting Mathew 10:1-3
Here’s Mathew 10:1-8

Mat 10:1-8

Then Jesus[a] summoned his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to cure every disease and every sickness. 2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon, also known as Peter, and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed him.

The Mission of the Twelve

5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, 6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 As you go, proclaim the good news, ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’[c] 8 Cure the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers,[d] cast out demons. You received without payment; give without payment.
The rest of the verses just reiterate in more detail the authority Jesus gave His apostles. Acts is chalk full of detailed accounts.

-To preface my answer we all know that not everyone even if they are called to serve in a higher religious capacity like deacons, pastors priests, nuns, that doesn’t mean they will all be given certain gifts some people are better at some things than others, it’s the way it is God has  given people certain gifts or charisms for certain things that’s all.
But there are are Priests who perform excorcisms, some heal the sick, some have a gift for speaking many languages, writing, being scholars, teaching, preaching etc...
*
St. Pope John Paul 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...e-that-earned-John-Paul-II-his-sainthood.html

Pope Francis 
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news.../inspiration-nation-pope-holds-baby/72671356/

https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/art...pe-list-of-miracles-performed-by-pope-francis

http://nypost.com/2016/03/27/how-the-pope-healed-me/

Various priests and clergy
http://www.charismamag.com/life/351...-the-faith/1269-the-priest-with-healing-hands

http://www.michaeljournal.org/artic.../saint-padre-pio-the-priest-with-the-stigmata

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2012/07/04/meet-10-of-the-most-amazing-priests/

Medjugorje healings

https://www.medjugorje.com/medjugorje/signs-and-miracles/540-testimonies-of-physical-healings.html

https://www.medjugorje.com/medjugorje/signs-and-miracles/544-spiritual-healings.html

Our lady of Lourdes 
https://olrl.org/stories/lourdes.shtml

Healing Saints
https://www.catholiccompany.com/getfed/30-healing-saints-for-common-ailments/

Fr Aniello Salicone 
http://www.spiritdaily.net/aniello.htm*



*Our Lady of Fátima miracle*
These were 3 poor uneducated illiterate country children 100 years ago, who were able to answer complicated questions of faith when questioned.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...70000-gathered-to-see/?utm_term=.5c41dfd2ed73

https://youtu.be/rBIs8cuIwTo

https://youtu.be/5lgBVR6ATXU

Movie made about it
https://youtu.be/-hI--srx4tc


http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/iss...-the-miracle-of-the-sun-dazzled-the-sceptics/


*I could go on and on but this reply is already too long. 

Excorcisms *
Accounts of true excorcisms pretty much most of the scary slightly exaggerated Hollywood movies made about excorcism has been based on a book based on the true life journals of a real life modern day excorcism.
The Excorcist was real it was a boy in the true life case not a girl.
*https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exorcism_of_Roland_Doe

The Rite Movie based on true story of excorcism 
http://www.chasingthefrog.com/reelfaces/therite.php

Fr Chad Ripperger -Excorcist Priest 


Modern day excorcisms 

Gary Thomas Excorcist Priest 

I hope I was able to answer your questions.*


----------



## Lucia

OriginalBeauty said:


> I have been studying and following this thread for some time.
> 
> I was raised as a Baptist.  My grandfather was a founder of the first African Baptist Church in my hometown.
> 
> But for some time I have been transfixed by Catholicism and as I study it seems to be most in line with the original intended Church.
> 
> I do not take it lightly.  My travels have taken me to some far, far places.  However, what would you Catholic sisters recommend to someone who is interested in converting?
> 
> Also, I have two young children I would like to raise in the Church.  My husband is agnostic.  He was raised Presbyterian and prays some, but he describes himself as agnostic.
> 
> Thanks in advance.



About RCIA

http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/who-we-teach/rite-of-christian-initiation-of-adults/

Please feel free to ask questions about anything “Catholic” that comes to mind we will do our best to help.
If you’re still pondering 

RCIA, the books the ladies recommended also I would recommend that you pray for your husband ask God to give him the gift of faith. Here some books I recommend once you’ve started your RCIA:

Reasons to believe -Scott Hahn

Beginning Apologetics- Frank Chacon

Manual for spiritual warfare -Thigpin

Available at Amazon or here
https://www.catholiccompany.com/


----------



## Lucia

Saravana said:


> It is not biblical for the Catholic church to decree that one HAS to go through a priest to get forgiveness of sin.  Nowhere does it say so in the Bible*. The issue with the Catholic church and I say this with love is that it has added too many things to The Word.*



I’m gong to have to take issue with that statement.  Seriously though, It is a well documented fact that the Protestant Bible is missing 7 Canonical books (inspired word of God) and that Martin Luther took it upon himself alone to remove these books and add “by faith alone” to a text in the Bible to suit his arguments.

See link:
http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=358315&Pg=&Pgnu=&recnu=

 The argument by Martin Luther was that there were no Hebrew texts to back up these 7 books, so Luther based his decision 2 arguments:

1. Hebrew texts of the 3rd century Rabbinical schools rather than the original apostles who actually lived and learned from Jesus Himself- it’s kind of ironic especially since the Greek texts did exist and Luther being a Catholic Priest knew about them.
Since Greek was the emerging language of the day one could assume that the Greek came from the Hebrew texts. This claim by Luther has since been proven to be false. There are the Quran Dead Sea Scrolls that have some of the Hebrew texts of those 7 books.

2. Luther cited St. Jerome’s opinion that they should never have been included in the bible and tossed 'em. (Never mind that they’d been considered Scritpture by all christians for the 1,200 years prior to his decision/declaration, nor that St. Jerome never went so far as to proclaim his judgement to be authoritative on the matter) Some Protestant Bibles now have an apocrypha but it’s not considered the inspired word of God by Protestants when there’s enough proof that they are.

The Catholic deuterocanonical scriptural texts are:

Tobit
Judith
Additions to Esther (Vulgate Esther 10:4–16:24)[9]
Wisdom (also called the Wisdom of Solomon)
Sirach (also called Ecclesiasticus)
Baruch, including the Letter of Jeremiah (Additions to Jeremiah in the Septuagint)[10]
Additions to Daniel:
Prayer of Azariah and Song of the Three Holy Children (Vulgate Daniel 3:24–90)
Susanna (Vulgate Daniel 13, Septuagint prologue)
Bel and the Dragon (Vulgate Daniel 14, Septuagint epilogue)

1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees

Just to add Martin Luther did believe in the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist and consecration of the host and wine. See Luther’s Works vol 37, 54


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther's_canon


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## Saravana

Deleted


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## Saravana

deleted


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## Belle Du Jour

Saravana said:


> @Lucia,
> 
> 
> 3) The Catholic church has added to The Word by ritualizing prayers into stuff  like  rosary, novenas, ave marias, hail mary, and the multitude of prayers to the multitude of saints one is taught to pray to. All those things were later additions and were not done ritually by the early Christians. Let me not even get started with the relics thing...
> 
> 4) The Catholic church has disregarded the 2nd commandments injunction about graven images. Totally took it out of the list of 10 commandments found in the Jewish scriptures. I was a Catholic for decades and I did not know about the prohibition against graven images. Exodus 20:3-4   _You shall have no other gods beside Me. *You shall not make for yourself a sculptured image, or any likeness of what is in the heavens above or on the earth below, or in the waters under the earth. * _



Everything Catholics do has basis in scripture and/or tradition. You have been misinformed.

-The rosary is a meditation on the gospel. It is not vain repetition and the beads are simply for counting. It's a heavenly prayer with the power to convert hearts, destroy heresies and stop wars. Don't believe me? Look up the Battle of Lepanto. This is just one example.

-The Hail Mary is scriptural. Who called Our Lady "full of grace" and said "the Lord is with you?"  Gods messenger the Angel. So Gabriel was bringing those words from the throne of God. No other human being has ever been called "full of grace." Elizabeth who was "filled with the Holy Spirit" said Mary was blessed among woman and the fruit of her womb was blessed. I thought Protestants were big on being filled with the Holy Spirit. Was He in error when He inspired Elizabeth to declare this? Also recognizing that Mary can intercede for us (like the queen mothers during the Davidic kingdom did in scripture) we ask the mother of our King (Jesus) to intercede for us to her son. I assure you, the Hail Mary is scriptural.  Do you believe in the trinity or the rapture? If so, these words are nowhere to be found in the Bible. So why do you believe in it if it's nowhere in scripture and by your definition a "later additions?" By the way, it's ironic that Protestants talk about "later additions" because the whole Protestant faith is historically late LOL. 1500 years late...so that's like pot, meet kettle.

-The word novena means 9. That's it. There's nothing magical here.  It's nine days of prayer. Guess where that started? In the acts of the apostles! Where the apostles prayed *nine* days for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. That's where our novenas come from...straight from the New Testament.

-Remember the story of Elijah and Elisha? Or Moses' staff? Welp if you do, then you have your answer regarding the power of relics. Again, biblical.

-Finally, if God was totally against heavenly images, why did He tell Moses to carve a snake and mount it so the people could look at it and live after being bitten by seraph snakes? Why did he command Moses to adorn the ark with carved cherubim? Why did early Christians create beautiful icons, statues and images or Our Lord if it was wrong? St Luke, the gospel writer, painted several images of Jesus and Mary.  Catholics and orthodox Christians don't worship images. We are venerating what the image represents. If I see a statue of Jesus or a crucifix and am so overcome with emotion and I reach out to touch his wounds, do you really think God is angry at me? In that moment, the best I can do to physically touch Jesus is to touch the statue that represents Jesus. I wonder if Protestants are moved with emotion by any famous non-religious paintings or portraits. If that can evoke a response, how much more should an image of Jesus evoke a response in my heart?


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## Belle Du Jour

A few of St Luke's icons:


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## Galadriel

Catching up on some public talks by Father Linus Clovis--he is AMAZING! God bless him.


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## Lucia

Source: http://natural-fertility-info.com/birth-control-pill-negatively-impacts-fertility.html



*Top 5 Ways the Birth Control Pill Negatively Impacts Long-Term Fertility*





How many women do you know that have taken the birth control pill? More than likely, it is almost all of them. The birth control pill is one of the most prescribed medications in the U.S. and not just for pregnancy prevention. What if I told you that the Pill, while freely taken by most women at some point in their life, may actually not be good for long-term fertility? 

Birth control is prescribed for preventing pregnancy and to control acne, but also for a variety of fertility issues such as endometriosis, PCOS, ovarian cysts, pain associated with fertility issues, PMS, and irregular menstrual cycles. Sounds pretty great, right? But, is it?

A simple internet search of the statement _how using birth control impacts fertility_ will lead you to a list of resources that say, to sum up the medical viewpoint, taking an oral contraceptive pill, aka the Pill, will not impact your future fertility.

Older studies (there are very few current studies), as well as articles on the web report that women who use birth control don’t have trouble conceiving naturally after stopping its use and get pregnant just as fast as other women, even if they’ve used birth control for years. In fact, one rather large study in which 2,000+ women reported, titled the _European Active Surveillance Study on Oral Contraceptives_, concluded that “Previous oral-contraceptive use does not negatively affect initial and 1-year rates of pregnancy after oral-contraceptive cessation…”

Why then, are we seeing very different results with our clients? Each and every day we work with women who have stopped long-term birth control use (anywhere from 1 – 20 years of use) and now have any number of concerning fertility-related symptoms and health issues. Our abundance of case histories have lead us to believe that the answer is most certainly not black and white. We have learned that taking the Pill can negatively impact long-term fertility. 

*Prolonged use of birth control confuses the body and may negatively impact long-term fertility in the following ways…*

*1. Menstrual cycle disruption.*FertilityFriend.com shares that studies show the following…


_10.24% of all first cycles after discontinuing oral contraceptives were not ovulatory (compared with 3.44% of control group)._
_Significant differences also appeared in the second and third cycles after discontinuing oral contraceptives._
_Cycles were longer in the post-pill group up to cycle number 12._
_Cycle disturbances (defined as a luteal phase length of less than 10 days or a cycle length greater than 35 days) were more frequent in the post-pill group until the seventh cycle._
_Cycle disturbances after discontinuing oral contraceptives were reversible but regulation took up to nine months or longer._
*2. Hormone imbalance –*Synthetic hormone-containing birth control may provide symptom relief, but it does not address the underlying imbalance that is fueling or contributing to the fertility issue being dealt with. What the Pill is doing is introducing synthetic forms of estrogen and progesterone to the body, which then prevent the body’s natural, beneficial hormones from bonding to hormone receptor sites. Introducing synthetic hormones into the body may further exacerbate hormone imbalance by overloading it.

*3. Disrupted ovulation –* The synthetic hormones contained in birth control regulate release and timing of specific hormones in the body to prevent ovulation. This is not how the normal release of hormones plays out in a naturally occurring menstrual cycle. It is necessary, as you know, to ovulate a mature, healthy follicle (egg) in order to achieve natural pregnancy. The Pill prevents the maturation of a follicle for ovulation, one of the ovaries most important jobs. Over time, the ovaries may “forget” how to do their job on their own because they haven’t been signaled with the right hormones at the correct time in the menstrual cycle.

*4. Cervical mucus changes –* The Pill has been shown to thicken cervical mucus so that sperm cannot reach the egg. Healthy cervical mucus is important for conception because it helps sperm travel through the vagina and the cervix to meet and fertilize an egg. 

*5. Changes the uterine lining –*The Pill changes the uterine lining to make it unreceptive to the implantation of a fertilized egg. By controlling the body’s estrogen and progesterone levels with synthetic hormones, the Pill does not allow for the proper levels of progesterone to build a healthy uterine lining for implantation. 

Many women begin taking the pill at a very young age and don’t stop until they want to begin trying to conceive. The Pill doesn’t cause infertility, but impacts long-term fertility by “silencing a woman’s biological clock for so long that, in some cases, they forget it’s ticking away”. In other cases, women ignore or forget they are dealing with a fertility issue because the symptoms have gone away.

The bottom line is this, women trying to control the symptoms of a fertility issue by taking the Pill are not addressing the underlying imbalance that is fueling, or contributing to the fertility issue.Instead, they are using a synthetic medication to control the symptoms of the problem while simultaneously allowing the body to defy nature. 

*Too learn more about related subjects covered in this article, please visit the following links:*

*How to Balance Your Hormones After Birth Control

Increase Cervical Mucous to Get Pregnant


References:
1. Barton, D. How to Balance Your Hormones After Birth Control: http://natural-fertility-info.com/birth-control-fertility.html
2. Birth Control Pills: http://www.healthywomen.org/condition/birth-control-pills
3. Birth Control Side Effects: What you don’t know could hurt you: http://www.floliving.com/birth-control-side-effects/
4. Can birth control now impact pregnancy later?: http://www.today.com/id/19803528/ns...trol-now-impact-pregnancy-later/#.VAoow6M8rB8
5. Crocker, Lizzie: Should You Quit the Pill?: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...rth-control-pill-s-negative-side-effects.html
6. Cronin, M. Schellschmidt, I. and Dinger, J. Rate of Pregnancy After Using Drospirenone and Other Progestin-Containing Oral Contraceptives: http://journals.lww.com/greenjourna...regnancy_After_Using_Drospirenone_and.20.aspx
7. Fertility After Oral Contraceptives: http://www.fertilityfriend.com/Faqs/Fertility-After-Oral-Contraceptives.html
*


----------



## Lucia




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## Galadriel

Thanks so much for sharing this! I'm on my 13th year of marriage and we have been using fertility awareness or NFP. 




Lucia said:


> Source: http://natural-fertility-info.com/birth-control-pill-negatively-impacts-fertility.html
> 
> 
> 
> *Top 5 Ways the Birth Control Pill Negatively Impacts Long-Term Fertility*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How many women do you know that have taken the birth control pill? More than likely, it is almost all of them. The birth control pill is one of the most prescribed medications in the U.S. and not just for pregnancy prevention. What if I told you that the Pill, while freely taken by most women at some point in their life, may actually not be good for long-term fertility?
> 
> Birth control is prescribed for preventing pregnancy and to control acne, but also for a variety of fertility issues such as endometriosis, PCOS, ovarian cysts, pain associated with fertility issues, PMS, and irregular menstrual cycles. Sounds pretty great, right? But, is it?
> 
> A simple internet search of the statement _how using birth control impacts fertility_ will lead you to a list of resources that say, to sum up the medical viewpoint, taking an oral contraceptive pill, aka the Pill, will not impact your future fertility.
> 
> Older studies (there are very few current studies), as well as articles on the web report that women who use birth control don’t have trouble conceiving naturally after stopping its use and get pregnant just as fast as other women, even if they’ve used birth control for years. In fact, one rather large study in which 2,000+ women reported, titled the _European Active Surveillance Study on Oral Contraceptives_, concluded that “Previous oral-contraceptive use does not negatively affect initial and 1-year rates of pregnancy after oral-contraceptive cessation…”
> 
> Why then, are we seeing very different results with our clients? Each and every day we work with women who have stopped long-term birth control use (anywhere from 1 – 20 years of use) and now have any number of concerning fertility-related symptoms and health issues. Our abundance of case histories have lead us to believe that the answer is most certainly not black and white. We have learned that taking the Pill can negatively impact long-term fertility.
> 
> *Prolonged use of birth control confuses the body and may negatively impact long-term fertility in the following ways…*
> 
> *1. Menstrual cycle disruption.*FertilityFriend.com shares that studies show the following…
> 
> 
> _10.24% of all first cycles after discontinuing oral contraceptives were not ovulatory (compared with 3.44% of control group)._
> _Significant differences also appeared in the second and third cycles after discontinuing oral contraceptives._
> _Cycles were longer in the post-pill group up to cycle number 12._
> _Cycle disturbances (defined as a luteal phase length of less than 10 days or a cycle length greater than 35 days) were more frequent in the post-pill group until the seventh cycle._
> _Cycle disturbances after discontinuing oral contraceptives were reversible but regulation took up to nine months or longer._
> *2. Hormone imbalance –*Synthetic hormone-containing birth control may provide symptom relief, but it does not address the underlying imbalance that is fueling or contributing to the fertility issue being dealt with. What the Pill is doing is introducing synthetic forms of estrogen and progesterone to the body, which then prevent the body’s natural, beneficial hormones from bonding to hormone receptor sites. Introducing synthetic hormones into the body may further exacerbate hormone imbalance by overloading it.
> 
> *3. Disrupted ovulation –* The synthetic hormones contained in birth control regulate release and timing of specific hormones in the body to prevent ovulation. This is not how the normal release of hormones plays out in a naturally occurring menstrual cycle. It is necessary, as you know, to ovulate a mature, healthy follicle (egg) in order to achieve natural pregnancy. The Pill prevents the maturation of a follicle for ovulation, one of the ovaries most important jobs. Over time, the ovaries may “forget” how to do their job on their own because they haven’t been signaled with the right hormones at the correct time in the menstrual cycle.
> 
> *4. Cervical mucus changes –* The Pill has been shown to thicken cervical mucus so that sperm cannot reach the egg. Healthy cervical mucus is important for conception because it helps sperm travel through the vagina and the cervix to meet and fertilize an egg.
> 
> *5. Changes the uterine lining –*The Pill changes the uterine lining to make it unreceptive to the implantation of a fertilized egg. By controlling the body’s estrogen and progesterone levels with synthetic hormones, the Pill does not allow for the proper levels of progesterone to build a healthy uterine lining for implantation.
> 
> Many women begin taking the pill at a very young age and don’t stop until they want to begin trying to conceive. The Pill doesn’t cause infertility, but impacts long-term fertility by “silencing a woman’s biological clock for so long that, in some cases, they forget it’s ticking away”. In other cases, women ignore or forget they are dealing with a fertility issue because the symptoms have gone away.
> 
> The bottom line is this, women trying to control the symptoms of a fertility issue by taking the Pill are not addressing the underlying imbalance that is fueling, or contributing to the fertility issue.Instead, they are using a synthetic medication to control the symptoms of the problem while simultaneously allowing the body to defy nature.
> 
> *Too learn more about related subjects covered in this article, please visit the following links:*
> 
> *How to Balance Your Hormones After Birth Control
> 
> Increase Cervical Mucous to Get Pregnant
> 
> 
> References:
> 1. Barton, D. How to Balance Your Hormones After Birth Control: http://natural-fertility-info.com/birth-control-fertility.html
> 2. Birth Control Pills: http://www.healthywomen.org/condition/birth-control-pills
> 3. Birth Control Side Effects: What you don’t know could hurt you: http://www.floliving.com/birth-control-side-effects/
> 4. Can birth control now impact pregnancy later?: http://www.today.com/id/19803528/ns...trol-now-impact-pregnancy-later/#.VAoow6M8rB8
> 5. Crocker, Lizzie: Should You Quit the Pill?: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...rth-control-pill-s-negative-side-effects.html
> 6. Cronin, M. Schellschmidt, I. and Dinger, J. Rate of Pregnancy After Using Drospirenone and Other Progestin-Containing Oral Contraceptives: http://journals.lww.com/greenjourna...regnancy_After_Using_Drospirenone_and.20.aspx
> 7. Fertility After Oral Contraceptives: http://www.fertilityfriend.com/Faqs/Fertility-After-Oral-Contraceptives.html*


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## Belle Du Jour




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## Lucia

Belle Du Jour said:


>



YASSSS! That’s a good one.


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## Lucia

*Humanae Vitae (July 25, 1968) | Paul VI*
*I. 
PROBLEM AND COMPETENCY 
OF THE MAGISTERIUM*

*2.* The changes that have taken place are of considerable importance and varied in nature. In the first place there is the rapid increase in population which has made many fear that world population is going to grow faster than available resources, with the consequence that many families and developing countries would be faced with greater hardships. This can easily induce public authorities to be tempted to take even harsher measures to avert this danger. There is also the fact that not only working and housing conditions but the greater demands made both in the economic and educational field pose a living situation in which it is frequently difficult these days to provide properly for a large family. 

Also noteworthy is a new understanding of the dignity of woman and her place in society, of the value of conjugal love in marriage and the relationship of conjugal acts to this love. 

But the most remarkable development of all is to be seen in man's stupendous progress in the domination and rational organization of the forces of nature to the point that he is endeavoring to extend this control over every aspect of his own life—over his body, over his mind and emotions, over his social life, and even over the laws that regulate the transmission of life. 

Moreover, if one were to apply here the so called principle of totality, could it not be accepted that the intention to have a less prolific but more rationally planned family might transform an action which renders natural processes infertile into a licit and provident control of birth? Could it not be admitted, in other words, that procreative finality applies to the totality of married life rather than to each single act? A further question is whether, because people are more conscious today of their responsibilities, the time has not come when the transmission of life should be regulated by their intelligence and will rather than through the specific rhythms of their own bodies.


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## Lucia

https://catholicmom.com/2013/05/31/7-books-for-catholic-dads/


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## Lucia




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## Lucia




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## Lucia

Galadriel said:


> Yes, Romans 5:12 speaks to the general condition of humans. We are born with the stain of original sin, and we are mortal (we die).
> 
> However, bearing the stain of original sin isn't essential to human nature (meaning, you can be fully human and not be stained with original sin).
> 
> Two examples which prove this:
> 
> 1. Jesus Christ is fully man--flesh, blood, soul--yet He is sinless and was born without the stain of original sin.
> 2. Baptism washes away the stain of original sin. All baptized members of the Church have been cleansed of the stain of original sin.
> 
> There is a difference between original sin (being born deprived of sanctifying grace) and actual sin (my willful choice to disobey God's laws or commit immorality).
> 
> The "all" that Paul uses in Greek here does not mean "each and everyone without exception," because if this is true, then it means Christ (possessing a fully human nature as well) would also fall under this "all men have sinned." This is clearly not the case.
> 
> It is also clear that not every human commits actual sin:
> 
> -unborn children in the womb
> -infants
> -very young children under the age of reason
> -the severely mentally disabled
> 
> So clearly there are exceptions.
> 
> Note in Luke 1:28 where the Archangel Gabriel addresses Mary as "full of grace." The Greek keracharitomene (full of grace) means to be endowed with the qualities of grace. Paul uses "keracharitomene" also to indicate the grace given to redeemed Christians.



Really great explaining here just wanted to repost


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## Lucia

*Why do we receive ashes on Ash Wednesday?*
The Catholic Spirit
A man receives ashes on his forehead during an Ash Wednesday service

A man receives ashes on his forehead during an Ash Wednesday service in this file photo. CNS  / Mike Crupi, Catholic Courier

_The following is a condensed version of an article by Father Michael Van Sloun, pastor of St. Bartholomew in Wayzata, that first appeared in 2008 in The Catholic Spirit. In 2017, Ash Wednesday is March 1._

The imposition of ashes is a solemn ritual that signals the beginning of the holy season of Lent. The ceremony is distinctive; there is no liturgical action like it throughout the entire church year.

The ashes come from a previous Palm Sunday. The palms are burned, the ashes collected and then crushed into a fine, sooty powder and placed into bowls.

The ashes are blessed by the priest during the Ash Wednesday Mass after the homily. Then, in a Communion-like procession, people are invited to come forward, and the ashes are applied to each person’s forehead in the shape of a cross as the minister says either, “Turn away from sin and believe in the Gospel” (Mark 1:15), the usual prayer, or “Remember that you are dust, and unto dust you shall return” (Genesis 3:19), the older, more traditional invocation.

Ashes symbolize two main things in the Old Testament.





*Death, repentance*

Ashes are equivalent to dust, and human flesh is composed of dust or clay (Genesis 2:7), and when a human corpse decomposes, it returns to dust or ash.

For example, Abraham told God, “I am but dust and ashes” (Genesis 18:27), a reference to his human mortality. Jeremiah described death as a “valley of corpses and ashes” (Jeremiah 31:40). Ashes are an ominous sign, and we use them on Ash Wednesday to remind ourselves of our own impending deaths. Death may come sooner, or it may come later, but it will surely come.

And if death is coming, we need to be prepared, and the time to prepare for death is now, and the way to prepare is to live according to God’s ways.

When the prophet Daniel shamefacedly clothed himself in sackcloth and ashes, they were a sign of his people’s contrition for their rebellion, wickedness and treachery (Daniel 9:3).

When Jonah warned the Ninevites that God planned to destroy their city because of their corruption and depravity, the people covered themselves with sackcloth and ashes as a sign of their intention to turn from their evil ways (Jonah 3:6,10).

Ashes are a plea to God for mercy and compassion, pardon and forgiveness.

Moreover, they are a public admission of guilt, an expression of sorrow for sins that have been committed, a promise to reform and a pledge to resist temptation in the future.

We, too, are sinners. When we come forward to receive ashes on Ash Wednesday, we are saying that we are sorry for our sins, and that we want to use the season of Lent to correct our faults, purify our hearts, control our desires and grow in holiness so we will be prepared to celebrate Easter with great joy.

Site
http://thecatholicspirit.com/holy-days/lent/why-do-we-receive-ashes-on-ash-wednesday-2/


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## Lucia




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## Lucia

Site 
https://forums.catholic.com/t/martin-luther-added-the-word-alone/119933

*Martin Luther added the word “alone”?*
Non-Catholic Religions





TriuneUnity
Jul '08





 ralphinal:
What about Hebrews? Noah had faith and built the ark…It is clear that if your faith does not make you do, you do not have faith. Faith and works are joined in a way that cannot be split.

Not really a question of splitting them apart. Faith will display itself in the real world in good works. The issue is what justifies us before God. The grounds of our justification is the work of Christ on behalf of sinners. How do we receive the work that Christ performed on our behalf? Faith alone. Paul expects his listeners to object and say “What about good deeds and obedience to the commandments!?” Paul discusses this objection at length in Romans 6.

Was Jesus talking about the law in Matthew when the sheep and goats are separated?

Yes, he was. Strictly speaking, according to the Law, every last human being would be in the left hand column. The reason the sheep are on the right hand is because Christ’s righteousness is theirs and hence, all of His good works are credited to them, and their sins are removed by Christ. We must interpret all of Scripture in light of the rest of Scripture.

Now, works of the law is another story.

While Paul often refers to works of the Mosaic law, he clearly states that all of humanity is under condemnation according to the Law of God. Jews and Gentiles both. In such cases, he is not referring to the Mosaic code, but to the moral Law of God which is true in all times, places, and nations.





ralphinal
Jul '08
Yes, he was. Strictly speaking, according to the Law, every last human being would be in the left hand column. The reason the sheep are on the right hand is because Christ’s righteousness is theirs and hence, all of His good works are credited to them, and their sins are removed by Christ. We must interpret all of Scripture in light of the rest of Scripture

The only problem with that interpretation is that the goats were told that they were sent to hell because they did nothing for those in need, and the sheep were told that they went to heaven because they did for those in need. In fact, a few verses earlier, Jesus tells them that not everyone who says “Lord, Lord” will inherit the kingdom, but only those that do the will of the Father.

Now, I am not saying that works can replace faith, or that you can work your way into heaven. I am saying, and scripture does the same, that faith alone, without any sort of works, is not faith at all. Faith MUST include works or else it is dead.





TriuneUnity
Jul '08





 ralphinal:
The only problem with that interpretation is that the goats were told that they were sent to hell because they did nothing for those in need

Absolutely. God sends people to damnation for a reason. That reason being their violating of God’s holy Law (sinning). In this case, Jesus uses the example of failing to love our neighbors as ourselves.

and the sheep were told that they went to heaven because they did for those in need.

Interpret this in light of the fact that Jesus did for those in need _perfectly_, which is what the Law of God requires. Through faith in Christ, His righteous acts are ours. Even if the sheep had done for the least among them, they would have had to do so perfectly in order to merit salvation by it.

In fact, a few verses earlier, Jesus tells them that not everyone who says “Lord, Lord” will inherit the kingdom, but only those that do the will of the Father.

Jesus is here addressing false prophets. What is interesting about the passage is that the false prophets did not attempt to enter heaven by their faith, but by their works! “Did we not cast out demons in your name? etc.” But Jesus says they did not do the will of the Father. In John’s Gospel, we learn that the will of the Father is that we believe in the One He has sent.

Now, I am not saying that works can replace faith, or that you can work your way into heaven. I am saying, and scripture does the same, that faith alone, without any sort of works, is not faith at all. Faith MUST include works or else it is dead.

With this I agree. The faith that we receive as a gift from God, which receives the justification Christ has won for us, must work itself out in love. The temporal purpose of our justification is that we may serve and love our neighbor and thus add to the kingdom. The working out in love does not add to, nor increase our justification. Christ’s righteousness needs no additions.





Contarini
Jul '08





 lizaanne:
I think it’s quite clear that Luther knew EXACTLY what he was doing (his words below):

It’s quite clear, if you can’t be bothered to read the whole text. Read it, and then give us an _informed_ opinion.

Luther in fact makes an argument as to why his translation is required according to the idioms of sixteenth-century German. He may be right, or he may be wrong. If he’s wrong, it is certainly because of his theological bias. So I’m not claiming that he’s off the hook. But the issue is one of translation, and has to be argued in terms of the nuances of koine Greek and sixteenth-century German.

Edwin



Peter_J
Jul '08





 Contarini:
It’s quite clear, if you can’t be bothered to read the whole text.

Is this the context you mean?

But I will return to the subject at hand. If your papist wishes to make a great fuss about the word sola (alone), say this to him: “Dr. Martin Luther will have it so, and he says that a papist and a donkey are the same thing.” Sic volo, sic iubeo, sit pro ratione voluntas.(2) For we are not going to be students and disciples of the papists. Rather, we will become their teachers and judges. For once, we also are going to be proud and brag, with these blockheads; and just as Paul brags against his mad raving saints, I will brag against these donkeys of mine! Are they doctors? So am I. Are they scholars? So am I. Are they preachers? So am I. Are they theologians? So am I. Are they debaters? So am I. Are they philosophers? So am I. Are they logicians? So am I. Do they lecture? So do I. Do they write books? So do I.

I will go even further with my boasting: I can expound the psalms and the prophets, and they cannot. I can translate, and they cannot. I can read the Holy Scriptures, and they cannot. I can pray, they cannot. Coming down to their level, I can use their rhetoric and philosophy better than all of them put together. Plus I know that not one of them understands his Aristotle. If any one of them can correctly understand one preface or chapter of Aristotle, I will eat my hat! No, I am not overdoing it, for I have been schooled in and have practiced their science from my youth. I recognize how deep and broad it is. They, too, are well aware that I can do everything they can do. Yet they treat me as a stranger in their discipline, these incurable fellows, as if I had just arrived this morning and had never seen or heard what they teach and know. How they do brilliantly parade around with their science, teaching me what I outgrew twenty years ago! To all their noise and shouting I sing, with the harlot, “I have known for seven years that horseshoe nails are iron.”(3)

Let this be the answer to your first question. Please do not give these donkeys any other answer to their useless braying about that word sola than simply this: “Luther will have it so, and he says that he is a doctor above all the doctors of the pope.” Let it rest there. I will from now on hold them in contempt, and have already held them in contempt, as long as they are the kind of people (or rather donkeys) that they are. And there are brazen idiots among them who have never even learned their own art of sophistry, like Dr. Schmidt and Dr. Snot-Nose, (4) and such like them, who set themselves against me in this matter, which not only transcends sophistry, but as Paul writes, all the wisdom and understanding in the world as well. Truly a donkey does not have to sing much, because he is already known by his ears.

For you and our people, however, I shall show why I used the word alone …

bible-researcher.com/luther01.html3



JonNC
Jul '08





 Peter_J:
Is this the context you mean?

bible-researcher.com/luther01.html

Hi Peter,
I think he means this context:


pnewton
Jul '08





 TriuneUnity:
When Paul says we justified by faith apart from works, in essence he is saying we are justified by faith apart from everything else, hence alone. In order for Luther to be adding words to the Bible, he would need to be adding words to the original Greek text.

Or add them in the English or German that are not in the Greek or implied in the Greek. Such dynamic translations allow the translators personal interpretation to override the author of the Bible. If nothing in the text states “alone” it should not be included.

Because Paul stated in one phrase “justified by faith apart from works”, one can not simply move that thought to another phrase and change it to “justified by faith apart from any and everything.” That is an act of interpretation, not translation. The Bible is no place for such sleight of hand tactics. Even the translators of the KJV tried no such shennanigans but attempted to stick to a more literal translation.



Peter_J
Jul '08





 JonNC:
Hi Peter,
I think he means this context:


TriuneUnity
Jul '08





 pnewton:
Or add them in the English or German that are not in the Greek or implied in the Greek. Such dynamic translations allow the translators personal interpretation to override the author of the Bible. If nothing in the text states “alone” it should not be included.

Because Paul stated in one phrase “justified by faith apart from works”, one can not simply move that thought to another phrase and change it to “justified by faith apart from any and everything.” That is an act of interpretation, not translation. The Bible is no place for such sleight of hand tactics. Even the translators of the KJV tried no such shennanigans but attempted to stick to a more literal translation.

If Paul states justified by faith apart from works, what else justifies that Paul didn’t include? Since you either receive your righteousness by grace through faith, or you merit it by works. If there’s a third category missing there, please include it. Otherwise, justified by faith apart from anything else would apply. Hence, alone.



ralphinal
Jul '08
Why is it that the context to Catholics says that the words “apart from the law” should be added while Protestants do not?

If he had changed it to say “Faith Alone apart from works of the law” how different would you folks be today?



TriuneUnity
Jul '08





 ralphinal:
Why is it that the context to Catholics says that the words “apart from the law” should be added while Protestants do not?

If he had changed it to say “Faith Alone apart from works of the law” how different would you folks be today?

Faith alone apart from works of the law would neither add or subtract from it. The apart from works of the Law translation is the same Greek text that Luther used allein/alone for. Catholics usually try to say that Paul is saying apart from Mosaic Law, but his context in the preceding 3 1/2 chapters is not the Mosaic Law, it’s all of morality given by God since Paul has indicted both Jews and Gentiles. Gentiles didnt have the Mosaic Law, so for Paul to say they were condemned by kosher and circumcision would’ve been nonsensical.


pnewton
Jul '08





 TriuneUnity:
If Paul states justified by faith apart from works, what else justifies that Paul didn’t include?

One could be justified by bribery. One could be justified by marking a ballot apprpopriatly. One could be winning a randomly lottery. These things are out there, but not eliminated grammatically. Language is the universe of the translator, not logic. Anything else is not translating, but interepreting.

One could make the argument that every thing is a “work” as defined by Paul, but then that arument is circular in the extreme and does nothing but beg the question.

Another possibility, and would be in accord to Catholic thinking, is that “works” used by Paul has a narrow usage. Specifically referring in the first part of Romans to works of The Law. The whole passage is aimed at Judaizers who attempted to combine a form of following Mosaic law with Christianity. There is nothing in a pure translation that prevents (or mandates) this interpretation.

If one is going to hold a nice sola scriptura position, it is best to start with the purest “scriptura” and not adulterate it with opinion from the outset. This was always my fundamentalist first rule of interpretation. It has carried over with me as a Catholic.



pnewton
Jul '08





 TriuneUnity:
but his context in the preceding 3 1/2 chapters is **not the Mosaic Law, it’s all of morality given by God **since Paul has indicted both Jews and Gentiles…

2:17 “Indeed you are called a Jew and rest on the Law…” You do not think this is the Mosaic Law? He goes on to discuss circumcision, part of the Mosaic Law, but not the Natural Law.

3:21But now the righteousness of God apart from the Law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets"
The Natural Moral Law and the Prophets?



1stChristian
Jul '08
What surprises me is the audacity of this man that could cooly change by a stroke of a pen a doctrine of the Apostle of God, St. Paul, who wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
But this was the outcome of the Protestant standpoint, individual judgment: no authority outside oneself. However ignorant, however stupid, however unlettered, you may cut out and carve out a Bible and a religion for yourself. No pope, no council, no church shall enlighten you or dictate or hand down the doctrines of Christ.
*And the result we have seen in the corruption of God’s Holy Word.*
What gets me is their deliberate excision from that Sacred volume of some of the inspired books that were suffered to remain. It is on consideration of such points as these that pious persons outside the Catholic fold would do well to ask themselves this question:
Which Christian body really loves and reveres Scripture most? Which has proved by it’s actions, it’s love and veneration?
And which seems most likely to incur the anathema, recorded by St. John, that God will send upon those *who shall take away from the words of the Book of life?*



MDK
Jul '08





 TriuneUnity:
It is true that what Luther was doing was a biblical translation. As I stated in the original thread, however, a translation, by its nature as a translation is never word for word but is giving the meaning of the original text in the language to which it is being translated to. A commentator is doing much the same thing except he is not translating the text. Otherwise, different biblical versions would all have the same verbage, but it doesn’t, because each translator is going for the best meaning to the words.

When Paul says we justified by faith apart from works, in essence he is saying we are justified by faith apart from everything else, hence alone. In order for Luther to be adding words to the Bible, he would need to be adding words to the original Greek text.

Do you think it’s possible you’re missing something critical here? I’ll give you a clue…, Paul didn’t simply say “we justified by faith apart from works.” As recorded in Romans 3:28, “For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law.” Please note it says “works of the law” and not simply “works.” If you study what that means, Paul is talking about circumcision, etc. Works of the law is a typical Hebraic expression for the law of the Jews, like circumcision, dietary laws, etc. We were freed from those, were we not?


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## Belle Du Jour

I finally got around to reading Rome Sweet Home, the story of Scott Hahn's conversion.  It was powerful!  I wish evangelical protestants would read his and Alex Jones' (+) conversion stories since these were pastors who gave up their livelihood, friends and some family to convert.


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## Lucia

Belle Du Jour said:


> I finally got around to reading Rome Sweet Home, the story of Scott Hahn's conversion.  It was powerful!  I wish evangelical protestants would read his and Alex Jones' (+) conversion stories since these were pastors who gave up their livelihood, friends and some family to convert.



This book is on my list of books to read this year. I’m familiar with Scott Hahn and his wife’s conversion testimony it’s on YouTube and he was on journey home ewtn.
Right now I’m reading Why Catholics cannot be Masons by John Salza it a short book I’ll have it done  in a week, I’m also reading Thou shalt prosper by Rabbi Daniel Lapin it’s a book about getting a positive mindset about money.


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## Lucia




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## Lucia

Belle Du Jour said:


> I finally got around to reading Rome Sweet Home, the story of Scott Hahn's conversion.  It was powerful!  I wish evangelical protestants would read his and Alex Jones' (+) conversion stories since these were pastors who gave up their livelihood, friends and some family to convert.



What’s the name of Alex Jones’ book?


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## Lucia




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## Rsgal

https://stpaulcenter.com/studies-tools/journey-through-scripture/the-bible-and-the-sacraments/

Study for free during the Lenten Season


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## Belle Du Jour

Lucia said:


> What’s the name of Alex Jones’ book?



No Price Too High


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## Lucia

@Saravana



https://youtu.be/UGIIPFQ1VJw

Regarding relics icons, sacraments, rituals


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## Lucia




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## Lucia

YES!!!


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## Lucia




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## Lucia




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## Lucia




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## Lucia

http://newsaintthomas.com/?utm_source=Youtube&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Apologetics Certificate


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## Lucia




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## Lucia

May 18 2018 Morning  offering

"Love Mary! She is loveable, faithful, constant. She will never let herself be outdone in love, but will ever remain supreme. If you are in danger, she will hasten to free you. If you are troubled, she will console you. If you are sick, she will bring you relief. If you are in need, she will help you. She does not look to see what kind of person you have been. She simply comes to a heart that wants to love her."
— St. Gabriel Possenti of Our Lady of Sorrows

http://enews.trinityroad.com/q/Nqpg7-M65ifxXgsuFy75jRHI6u_aGX2Pl6slDPwkrA_JxYAQ5xqK3CwQU


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## Lucia




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## Lucia

The REal presence of Jesus in the Eucharist lecture


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## Lucia

Right now is Our Lady of Mount Carmel Novena feast day is July 16, she’s very miraculous in regards to women/couples having trouble conceiving, healing from health afflictions, and more. Also the brown scapular.
 Here’s testimony I saw myself there was this married couple the husband was in his late 40s his wife looked younger, they came to Mount Carmel mass, processions, feast days, and prayer vigils religiously-pun intended.  This went on for a good 4-5 years then BOOM! They had a son fast forward 3 years later and they now have 3 sons, the youngest a couple of months old. God can, and will multiply blessings. Amen! 

https://bit.ly/2zykEm0

https://bit.ly/2NGJl2q

https://bit.ly/2ueoXxM

From pray more novenas guy:

Peace be with you!

A little more than eight years ago, I was single. 

Little did I know... my future wife was praying a novena, asking God to help her meet her future husband (me). 

Annie, my wife, was praying a very special and powerful novena. Now, six years later, we are married and coming up on our sixth wedding anniversary! 

I would like to ask you to join me in the very same novena that Annie prayed more than eight years ago. We will start praying on July 17th!

This novena is to a Saint who is known for truly great things. 

So, which novena is it?

It's the St. Anne Novena! This is one of our favorite and most popular novenas. 

And we start praying it very soon, so be sure to share it with your family & friends!
*SHARE THE SAINT ANNE NOVENA! *
Click to Share on Facebook
Share on Google+
Click to Tweet
St. Anne is the mother of Our Lady and grandmother of Jesus. She is a very powerful intercessor! 

You may have heard that unmarried women often pray to St. Anne for help in finding a spouse. But, St. Anne is also known to intercede for people for almost any request, and especially for healing.

So, I hope you will join me in praying this novena for your prayer intentions! 

Your friends & family can sign up here:

http://www.praymorenovenas.com/st-anne-novena/

You are already signed up to receive the novena  

We're looking forward to praying with you and for you! 

God bless you!
John-Paul & Annie - PrayMoreNovenas.com

*SHARE THE ST. ANNE NOVENA! *


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## Belle Du Jour

Hello my dear sisters!  Even though we are going through some storms now, we know that we have Jesus in the Eucharist and the fullness of the Christian faith and so the gates of Hell will never prevail against the Church despite the weakness of some of our priests, bishops and cardinals.  As St. John Bosco prophesied in his dream, when we call on Jesus and ask Our Lady to intercede for us, we will be in peace.  When we deviate from these pillars, we will be assaulted on all sides.  May God's holy will be done.


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## Lucia

Belle Du Jour said:


> Hello my dear sisters!  Even though we are going through some storms now, we know that we have Jesus in the Eucharist and the fullness of the Christian faith and so the gates of Hell will never prevail against the Church despite the weakness of some of our priests, bishops and cardinals.  As St. John Bosco prophesied in his dream, when we call on Jesus and ask Our Lady to intercede for us, we will be in peace.  When we deviate from these pillars, we will be assaulted on all sides.  May God's holy will be done.



Yes this!
We have lost many of our flock because of these crimes against children it’s sexual perversity and its straight up demonic, but even this will be expelled from our church and God will prevail.  People outside the Catholic Church especially secular ones hold us and our Priests to an impossible standard. For the Priests yes they need to be stronger, better, more faithful to their vows especially chastity and purity.  Preists and Pastors are also under stronger more aggressive spiritual attacks from the devil and his demons than your regular average churchgoer that also plays a part in this in the end they are only tempted with perversions tailored to their own private weaknesses it’s then their choice to give in and commit the sin or crime in this case.
The Church has dealt with this the wrong way, and made things worse a cover up is always multiplies the problem and scandal (just a look at Nixon and watergate) they closed ranks and covered stuff up, making the scandal they were afraid of bigger and it blew up in everyones faces.  Frankly, it wouldn’t be this bad now if they had just put those abusing Priests out on the street and made an “anonymous” phone call to the police.

Now people have every right to be upset and disgusted with this, so am I, but we have to remember the Priests are _men first_ and the kind of PREIST they will be depends on the kind of MAN they were and are. This is a MAN problem, not a Catholic, Protestant, ceo, athlete, lawyer, Rabbi, Professor, Teacher, Actor, Director, Producer,  doctor, father, step-father etc... position has nothing to do with it except for who they have access to.  
People have  hard time with this because this is an emotional hot button issue and most people can’t think straight. People have to be able to separate the office, position, job from the flesh and blood imperfect sinning individual man.

Each man is responsible for his own actions and a Preist doubly so, because he knows what the word of God says about abusing little ones and those who are vulnerable so they will all have to answer to God for all of it, even the enablers who covered stuff up but didn’t actually abuse children they are also doubly responsible. If  the man is sexual pervert becoming a Preist, or Pastor (this exists in practically every Christian church denomination cause no church is immune to this scandal) or getting married is not going to change that, only Jesus can save, regenerate and renew.  
In the meantime they need to be stripped of their office and official duties, separated and kept away from children and be turned over to the  authorities to deal with them.
We must pray that our church is purged of these men and replaced by strong chaste fervent men of God with great faith. Also pray for our “good” Priests to stay strong in Jesus and on the narrow path and not give into temptations. Amen!


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## Lucia




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## OriginalBeauty

Lucia said:


>



I love Father Mike.


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## Lucia

*Power of prayer fuels program for aging nuns*
When Sister Mary Rinaldi visited Tampa in 1991 seeking funding to build a Salesian Sisters' retirement facility, one man's words inspired her to try a new type of fundraising. 

"We have more need for your prayers than you do for our money," said Fortune Bosco, a prominent Tampa attorney who dedicated his life to serving his community.

Together Sister Rinaldi and Bosco, who passed away in 2006, founded the Adopt a Sister program, inviting people to donate money to help a retired sister in exchange for her prayers.

The Salesian Sisters of Tampa will host a luncheon celebrating the program's 26th anniversary at noon on Friday (March 3) at Villa Madonna School, 315 W Columbus Drive. 

"The power of prayer, that's the essence of this program," Sister Rinaldi said. "And I'm so happy to celebrate it."

In its early years, Adopt a Sister allowed for the completion of a Salesian Sisters Retirement Home, located in New Jersey.

Today, funding from adopters goes to maintain the facility and care for aging sisters.

Salesian Sisters spend their lives as educators evangelizing to youth. They live in simple convents at schools and in communities across the world. Sisters do not retire at a specific age. Many serve well into their 80s and 90s. When they retire, it is because they need assistance.

Adopters help ensure sisters receive the best care possible.

Adopted sisters pray for their adopters, who are welcome to visit them and send prayer requests, every day.

"The nuns feel like they are still needed," Rinaldi said. "A spiritual bond is formed."

All are welcome to attend the free anniversary luncheon and learn more about the Adopt a Sister program.

The event will include a showing of a _20/20_ special featuring the Sisters, as well as messages from Sister Rinaldi and others.

The cost to Adopt a Sister is a suggested $160 donation. Adopters receive a biography and photo of their Sister.

For more information, visit salesiansisters.com.

_Contact Sarah Whitman at [email protected].

http://www.tampabay.com/news/religion/power-of-prayer-fuels-program-for-aging-nuns/2314950_


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## Lucia

https://www.salesiansisters.org/index.php/how-can-i-help/donate/adopt-a-sister/adoptasister


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## Lucia

https://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/10/...ve-a-chain-of-prayers-nonstop-since-1878.html

*Religion Journal; Nuns Keep Alive a Chain of Prayers, Nonstop Since 1878*
By FRANCINE PARNESJAN. 10, 2004

At a white marble altar in the Romanesque chapel of the Franciscan Sisters of Perpetual Adoration in La Crosse, Wis., Sister Ronalda Hophan prays on behalf of people who ask the nuns to call upon God to steer them through life's travails. She prays for safekeeping of grandsons stationed in Iraq, healing through chemotherapy and job promotions. She prays for people asking for world peace or inner peace, and for mundane miracles including considerate behavior from a spouse, getting a date within a month and decent test grades.

She has prayed, too, for a woman who recently asked to have a cabin to herself on a church cruise. ''She wanted to make it a retreat, a prayer experience, while sailing in God's beauty,'' Sister Ronalda said. (Yes, she got the room). The congregation prays every hour for many others, including its members, the pope, the local bishop, national and state government officials and the residents of La Crosse.

With so many requests from around the globe, the sisters' hours would seem to be filled with nonstop praying -- and indeed, at the chapel, prayer never ceases. For the past 125 years, since 11 a.m. on Aug. 1, 1878, the sisters have been praying around the clock, in rotating shifts. The up-to-the-second Perpetual Adoration Clock at www.fspa.org is ticking at more than 45,800 days. With at least two people always praying before the exposed blessed sacrament, it is the nation's longest uninterrupted prayer, the sisters believe.

The Franciscan Sisters of Perpetual Adoration are not formally affiliated with other religious congregations of women and parishes in the United States that practice perpetual adoration, said Cristeen Custer, their spokeswoman. With the tradition more common among parishes, an informal nationwide search by Sister Maria Friedman in La Crosse earlier this month turned up only a handful of other American convents that practice nonstop prayer.

Besides their devotion to prayer, the sisters serve in a variety of ministries. They operate spirituality centers in the Midwest and Spokane, Wash., and sponsor hospitals and a university. Some members minister within these institutions and in other areas such as teaching, social work, pastoral care, clinical psychology and even baking and massage therapy.

Perpetual adoration has its remote origins in the fourth century, when converts to the faith in some dioceses were asked to pray before the exposed blessed sacrament for eight days after their baptism, said Bishop Raymond L. Burke, archbishop-elect of Saint Louis and national director of the Real Presence Eucharistic Education and Adoration Association in Chicago. And the prayer requests keep coming. ''Last year at this time, we were getting about 25 prayer requests a week; now we're getting about 25 a day, and they come from around the world,'' said Sister Ronalda, citing attention surrounding the 125th anniversary, when the convent spread word that such requests were welcome.

Why invite requests?

''Just sending the prayer request connects that person with God,'' said Sister Malinda Gerke, a sister for nearly 50 years. ''It is one act, one step of faith. If they didn't have that much faith, they wouldn't even ask or try. That is the seed planted in the soil. When we receive these requests, my first reaction is, thank God that people have that much faith that they believe in the power of prayer,'' she said.

Do their prayers work?

''Whatever the divine plan is, will be,'' Sister Malinda said. ''Some sisters recite a formal prayer for each request, but I have a very personal kind of style with God and say, 'Now, God this is yours. I have called your attention to this.'''

The work can be riveting. ''Every time I go to pray, there are 100 or so requests, and I feel the anguish of the world as I read through them,'' said Sister Maria Friedman, who noted that many people write after receiving bad news. ''I picture the person making the request reeling from this new calamity and wondering how to cope.'' She prays for the best solutions, for hope and for support from professionals, family and friends.

Liz Nutter, a retired teacher from La Crosse, has e-mailed prayer requests practically every week for the past three years, mostly for her extensive network of family and friends.

''Maybe the sisters have a special way of praying,'' said Ms. Nutter, who considers it a miracle that her brother-in-law, Mike Vondrashek, recently survived risky surgery. ''I made the request because I believed we needed more than man to solve this problem. Whenever there's a need, no matter if you're Catholic, Protestant or of another belief, people in La Crosse ask, 'Have you called the Franciscan nuns?'''

It would require an extraordinary disruption to halt the ministry. In 1923, the sisters continued praying despite a fire that stopped at the chapel doors, Ms. Custer said. And in 1968, some members took to praying eight hours each day, when other sisters were hit by a flu epidemic. ''This practice is central to the identity of the congregation, and members are very serious about doing the utmost to see it continue,'' she said.

Those have not been the only threats to continuing tradition at the convent; it needs novices. Of the more than 100 sisters who pray, in 30-minute shifts from 7 a.m. until 9 p.m., and 60-minute shifts from 9 p.m. to 7 a.m., their average age is over 70, Ms. Custer said.

Today about 90 other people who have been trained by the sisters join the sisters as prayer partners, a practice instituted in 1997.

Indeed, perseverance is in the roots. In 1878, after the bishop in La Crosse refused the requests of Mother Antonia, the congregational leader, to begin perpetual adoration, the sisters tried it nonetheless, demonstrated that it was not too burdensome, and have continued ever since, Ms. Custer said.

Holding vigil is rooted in tradition, according to the Rev. Dr. Edward Foley, professor of liturgy and music at Catholic Theological Union in Chicago. ''Perpetual adoration reflects a convergence of the need for tangible encounters with God and an instinct to keep vigil, like standing guard outside Buckingham Palace, rain or shine,'' he said. ''Those are human instincts across civilizations and religions.''


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## Lucia

https://sistersofmarymc.org/adopt-a-nun-program


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## Galadriel

Lucia said:


> https://sistersofmarymc.org/adopt-a-nun-program



This looks cool!


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## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> Hello my dear sisters!  Even though we are going through some storms now, we know that we have Jesus in the Eucharist and the fullness of the Christian faith and so the gates of Hell will never prevail against the Church despite the weakness of some of our priests, bishops and cardinals.  As St. John Bosco prophesied in his dream, when we call on Jesus and ask Our Lady to intercede for us, we will be in peace.  When we deviate from these pillars, we will be assaulted on all sides.  May God's holy will be done.



Amen!


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## Lucia




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## Lucia




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## Belle Du Jour

Thank you @Lucia for posting that article about the nuns!  I just submitted a prayer request.


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## Lucia

Padre Pios fav intercessory prayer
 He said this prayer when people asked him to pray for them and many had breakthroughs and miracles. Amen!
Source 
https://www.google.com/amp/s/aletei...for-someone-he-used-this-powerful-prayer/amp/


_I. O my Jesus, you have said: “Truly I say to you, ask and you will receive, seek and you will find, knock and it will be opened to you.” Behold I knock, I seek and ask for the grace of …… (here name your request)
Our Father …. Hail Mary …. Glory Be to the Father …. Sacred Heart of Jesus, I place all my trust in you._

_II. O my Jesus, you have said: “Truly I say to you, if you ask anything of the Father in my name, he will give it to you.” Behold, in your name, I ask the Father for the grace of ……. (here name your request) Our Father …. Hail Mary ….Glory Be to the Father …. Sacred Heart of Jesus, I place all my trust in you._

_III. O my Jesus, you have said: “Truly I say to you, heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away.” Encouraged by your infallible words I now ask for the grace of ….. (here name your request) Our Father …. Hail Mary …. Glory Be to the Father … Sacred Heart of Jesus, I place all my trust in you._

_O Sacred Heart of Jesus, for whom it is impossible not to have compassion on the afflicted, have pity on us miserable sinners and grant us the grace which we ask of you, through the Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, your tender Mother and ours.
Say the Hail, Holy Queen and add: St. Joseph, foster father of Jesus, pray for us._


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## Lucia

#makechurchmusicgreatagain


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## Galadriel

Blessings, ladies! How is your Lent going? Any updates in general? I miss you all.


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## Belle Du Jour

Doing well @Galadriel!  Lent is always a bit grueling but I LOVE the Triduum and Easter season.  Hope everyone is doing well.


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## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> Doing well @Galadriel!  Lent is always a bit grueling but I LOVE the Triduum and Easter season.  Hope everyone is doing well.



Oh, @Belle Du Jour  it is grueling, but we'll get through it! Everyone is doing well, including your LHCF nephew . He's turning 9 next month and finally asked for a haircut. Cannot believe how big he's getting! And his First Communion is in May.

@Shimmie


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## Belle Du Jour

He's BEAUTIFUL! God has truly blessed you.  I hope he has a blessed first communion


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## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> He's BEAUTIFUL! God has truly blessed you.  I hope he has a blessed first communion



Thank you!


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## Lucia

Please pray for the Notre Dame restoration of he physical church and the faith of the French.  Pres Macron says he will rebuild in 5 years and French billionaire Francois-Henri Pinault  (aka Salma Hayek’s Husband) will donate 100M Euros to help rebuild other billionaires will donate too.





https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...dame-fire-salma-hayek-billionaire-pledge.html


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## Lucia

Galadriel said:


> Blessings, ladies! How is your Lent going? Any updates in general? I miss you all.



Some challenges but overall good. I’m Ready for Easter


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## Lucia

Ladies there’s a woman who allegedly wants to celebrate the anniversary of the Coumbine shootings by killing kids. We as Christians collectively need to rebuke this demon and come against anyone trying to commit violence to repeat a past tragedy and pray that they get caught before doing any harm.


*I bind my faith with yours and all the praying Christians in the world, we put on the whole armor of God, Eph 6:10  we cover ourselves under the protection of the blood of the Lamb.*

*Lord father in heaven, we humbly ask in Jesus’ name we come against this and any evil demonic plot the enemy is trying to complete, we bind and cast down all spirits and workers of inequity behind these evil doings and send them all to the foot of the cross so they will never return.  Begone begone begone  forever!  Blind them so that know not what we do, blind them so that they know not on whom to take vengeance blind them so they will receive the just sentence for all their works. We pray that all the weapons traps plots and schemes they have formed against your children may they fall into their own traps may their own weapons be used against them. May the children be protected by the blood of the lamb, (mantle your Mother Mary) angels and saints and may all these children go home safe to their parents today and everyday until you call them rightfully home.

In Jesus’ name we pray. Amen! Amen!  Amen!*


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## Lucia




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## Rsgal

I should be coming over this wqy more often.
Happy Easter season


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## AtlantaJJ

Hello Ladies, I should be stopping in here more often myself. Blessings to you all during this Easter season and always!!


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## Galadriel

Lucia said:


>



I JUST found Blue Collar Catholic on YouTube! He's awesome.


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## Galadriel

AtlantaJJ said:


> Hello Ladies, I should be stopping in here more often myself. Blessings to you all during this Easter season and always!!



Blessings to you!


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## Galadriel

Rsgal said:


> I should be coming over this wqy more often.
> Happy Easter season



Happy Easter!


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## Lucia




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## Lucia




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## Lucia




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## Lucia

Chapel veils Mantillas online 
https://www.autom.com/category/new-arrivals-apparel


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## Lucia




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## Lucia

*THE DOLORIANS*





The Dolorians pray a set of short prayers that take only 2 minutes a day to pray and there are so many promises that they obtain through prayers plus each member prays for each other as well so that union of prayer also obtains even more graces as the weak are upheld by the strong members.  Through the graces of these prayers and through spreading the message of the Dolorians may all our members obtain happiness in this life and for eternity afterwards. 

*The main prayer of the Dolorian is 7 Hail Mary's prayed while meditating on the Seven Dolors of Mary.*
Our Lady directly reveals the amazing graces granted by her Son for all those who daily pray 7 Hail Mary's(One for each Dolor) while meditating on her 7 dolors and tears: She said that she will:

1. "*She will grant peace to our families.*"
2. "We will be enlightened about the Divine Mysteries."
3. "*She will console us in our pains* and *She will accompany us in our work.*"
4. "*She will give us as much as we ask for as long as it does not oppose the adorable will of her Divine Son or the sanctification of our souls.*"
5. "*She will defend us in our spiritual battles with the infernal enemy *and *She will protect us at every instant of our lives.*"
6. "She will visibly help us at the moment of our death—we will see the face of our mother."
7. "She has obtained this grace from her divine Son, that those who propagate this devotion to her tears and dolors will be taken directly from this earthly life to eternal happiness, since all their sins will be forgiven and my Son will be their eternal consolation and joy."

The purpose of the Dolorians is to promote union with the sufferings of Christ through union with the special suffering that Our Lady endured because she was the Mother of God. By uniting ourselves with both the Passion of Christ and His holy Mother, we enter into Jesus' Heart and honor Him greatly; He is more honored because we have so honored His Mother.  Jesus Christ Himself revealed to the Blessed Veronica da Binasco, that He is, as it were, more pleased in seeing His Mother compassionated than Himself; for thus He addressed her: *"My daughter, tears shed for My Passion are dear to Me; but as I love My Mother Mary with an immense love, the meditation of the torments which she endured at My death is even more agreeable to Me."*
Our Lord also had revealed to St. Bridget in another part of Revelations: *"My Mother and I saved man as with one heart only, I by suffering in my Heart and my flesh, she by the sorrow and love of her heart." *
So great a love on the part of Mary deserves our gratitude, and that gratitude should be shown by at least meditating upon and pitying her in her sorrow. But she complained to Saint Bridget that very few did so, and that the greater part of the world lived in forgetfulness of them: *"I look around at all who are on earth, to see if by chance there are any who pity me, and meditate upon my sorrows; and I find that there are very few. Therefore, my daughter, though I am forgotten by many, at least do thou not forget me; consider my anguish, and imitate, as far as thou canst, my grief.*" 

So Resolve today to spend at least two minutes a day meditating on the 7 Dolors and join the Dolorians where we pray these everyday together throughout the world to obtain grace for ourselves and all of our members each day.  

*The Dolorian Prayer *(Prayed Daily)
Our Sorrowful Mother we come before you with prayers for all the Dolorians to receive the graces you have promised to obtain from your Divine Son, Jesus.  Especially the Grace of Peace in our Families, to console us in our pains, accompany us in our work, defend us in our spiritual battles, and protect us at every instant of our lives.  Also you have said to give us whatsoever we ask for as long as it does not oppose the adorable will of your Divine Son or the sanctification of our souls, so behold we now ask you for all the Dolorians intentions and Mine (Your Intentions) and that the whole world becomes Dolorians.  We ask this all through Our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen 

*Now Pray 7 Hail Mary’s while Meditating on her Seven Sorrows*(Meditations for these are below):
(Hail Mary, full of grace the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of death. Amen  
1. The Prophecy of Simeon
2.The Flight into Egypt
3. The Loss of the Child Jesus in the Temple
4. The Meeting on the Way of The Cross
5. The Crucifixion
6. The Piercing of the Side of Jesus and His Descent from the Cross
7. The Burial of Jesus

http://www.thepoweroftherosary.com/the-dolorians.html


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## Lucia




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## Lucia




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## Galadriel

Lucia said:


>



Thanks for sharing! I really like his videos and explanations.


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## OriginalBeauty

Galadriel said:


> Thanks for sharing! I really like his videos and explanations.



I also enjoy Father Mike. I’m still learning, and he instructs in a way that is easy to understand for an outsider as well.


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## Lucia

* IS 58:7-10*
Thus says the LORD:
Share your bread with the hungry,
shelter the oppressed and the homeless;
clothe the naked when you see them,
and do not turn your back on your own.
Then your light shall break forth like the dawn,
and your wound shall quickly be healed;
your vindication shall go before you,
and the glory of the LORD shall be your rear guard.
Then you shall call, and the LORD will answer,
you shall cry for help, and he will say: Here I am!
If you remove from your midst
oppression, false accusation and malicious speech;
if you bestow your bread on the hungry
and satisfy the afflicted;
then light shall rise for you in the darkness,
and the gloom shall become for you like midday.


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## Lucia

*Source *
*https://reginamag.com/a-catholic-bride/*

*A Catholic Bride*




*Six Beautiful Brides On Why A Catholic Marriage is Different*






*SISTERS SUSAN AND ELIZABETH TOFFLER* prepare for their double wedding in Portland, Oregon. “We believe Catholic marriage is a way to unite the human with the Divine; we are cooperating with God's Will for our lives.”






“*A CATHOLIC MARRIAGE IS DIFFERENT BECAUSE IT IS A SACRAMENT*. It is an ‘outward sign, instituted by Christ, to give Grace’ as long as we are willing and able to receive and cooperate with that Grace. We like how Scott Hahn points out that, unlike a contract, a covenant is not an exchange of goods, but rather an exchange of persons–body and soul.”  — Susan Willis






“*WE REALLY WANTED OUR FAITH TO BE EVIDENT*. We made a conscious effort to incorporate symbols of our Faith and practices into our wedding ceremony and preparations, not just for the Mass portion. During the Mass, we each carried special rosaries with our flower bouquets, and Elizabeth carried a small crucifix that belonged to our mom.”






“*BEFORE THE MASS, THE BRIDESMAIDS, GROOMSMEN AND OTHER FAMILY MEMBERS GATHERED WITH US* to pray for and with us in our upcoming Sacrament–to give us the courage to live it out, and in thanksgiving for all our blessings.” Elizabeth Tarries






*ARRIVING FOR THEIR NUPTIALS*: The evening before, both brides spent time after the rehearsal dinner with family and friends in an hour of praise and worship before the Blessed Sacrament at one of their Parish churches.






*WITH 100-YEAR OLD DOMINICAN FATHER DUFFNER*: “Some good friends of ours had prayer cards made to put at each place setting at the reception as favors for our guests–we hope it is not only a pretty card (has a beautiful image of the Betrothal of Mary and Joseph on the front), but is also a reminder to our friends and family to keep us (Susan & Aidan and Elizabeth & Dave) and our marriages in their prayers.” (All photos Christa Taylor)






*“I AM FROM NAIROBI, KENYA AND MY HUSBAND IS FROM ST. LOUIS PARK, MINNESOTA. I AM SO GRATEFUL THAT I WAITED FOR HIM* and hope that this is the beginning of great things for both of us, spiritually, physically and emotionally. I am so happy to be married to my best friend and every day is a learning process. “—Catherine Daoust  Robb Manary Photography






“*THE DIFFERENCE ABOUT HOW I VIEW  MARRIAGE AS OPPOSED TO HOW MANY PEOPLE IN MY GENERATION DO IS THAT I CONSIDER IT ETERNAL. *Other people — I have friends who are almost turning to divorce — consider it temporal and think it only works if they are happy, otherwise they can just walk out and move on.” Catherine Daoust






“*A CATHOLIC MARRIAGE* is a path through which I and my husband will grow into full maturity on both a human and spiritual level. It is also a way of holiness and it gives grace. It is an indissoluble covenant between two baptized people and God. It is meant to last forever. “ Catherine & Andrew Daoust






*“A CATHOLIC MARRIAGE IS SO MUCH MORE THAN A CONTRACT*. It's a means for grace and a path to holiness. When we take our vows in September, we're not only vowing ‘to have and to hold’ etc, etc, until ‘death do us part,’ we're vowing to do what it takes to keep the other person on a path toward  heaven.” – Lucy Mc Vicker






“*HOW IS OUR IDEA OF MARRIAGE DIFFERENT FROM OUR PEERS?* For starters… we want kids. And by kids, I mean get out the old bench seat in the back of the station wagon kind of marriage. So we both have an openness to babies – either biological or adopted. I know so many newlywed couples who want to wait and wait and wait and wait to have kids.“






*“MANY WAIT AND ARE ON HORMONAL CONTRACEPTIVES FOR SO LONG THAT IT MAKES IT DIFFICULT TO CONCEIVE ONCE THEY'RE ‘READY.’* That's not to say that the only purpose of marriage is to beget children but there's a very real perversion with how marriage is viewed.”






*“MY PARENTS TAUGHT US TO NOT SETTLE FOR WHICHEVER ‘MR. WHO WE THINK MAY BE RIGHT’* and to keep praying for who it is we were supposed to marry, should that be our vocation. My dad once told me, ‘You're my princess. A man needs to treat you like it or he's not worth it.’ He wasn't referring to treating me like I was the Queen of Sheba, to be waited on and worshipped but to be held in the dignity that I deserved as a child of God. It resonated and it's been a beautiful witness to see my dad treat my mom as such.” – Lucy Mc Vicker






“*OUR HIGH NUPTIAL MASS* was celebrated at St. Jude Thaddeus Church in Pharr, Texas, in deep South Texas, only ten miles from the Mexican border. Our parish nun, Sister Estela, was very excited and during marriage preparation classes told couples about the beauty and reverence of the Latin Mass. “ Dorothy Mc Fall






*“WE DID HAVE SOME GUESTS WHO REFUSED TO WEAR THEIR VEILS* and simply did not place it on their heads, nor those of their daughters. In addition, I was asked ‘why only women’ and ‘what do the men wear’ or ‘why don't men cover their heads.’”






*“I WANTED VEILS FOR ALL FEMALE GUESTS* but since we couldn't afford to purchase 200 veils, I made them myself. The majority of our guests were very respectful, possibly because it was prefaced by several months of explaining to the female guests, or their spouses, that the tradition of modesty and head covering was important to us.”






“Most often we heard ‘it was such a beautiful Mass’ while others simply said they ‘had never seen anything like it.’






*“OUR MASS SPARKED A LARGE INTEREST IN THE EXTRAORDINARY FORM*; my Catholic colleagues had never been to a Latin Mass and asked questions about the veiling, music, language and had interest in the Mass times.  We donated the extra veils to the parish, so visitors on Sundays can wear veils. I still see many of our guests wearing their veils at Mass!” – Theodore & Dorothy Mc Fall



*“WITH THE SACRAMENT, WE HAVE THE SAME GOAL OF HEAVEN* and helping each other reach it. We understand that we are witnesses of Catholicism and Christ’s love. That is the center of our marriage.” – Samantha Brenneman


*“AS CATHOLICS WE APPROACH MARRIAGE AS AN EXTREMELY SERIOUS MATTER* – death do us part, then the responsibility that comes from every action we do to and for each other. Our choice to practice the Faith as a base and Natural Family Planning to support it is countercultural to everything society is today.” – Samantha Brenneman






*“I WAS TAUGHT TO DATE FOR MARRIAGE* – always considering if I could see myself marrying the person. That made dating quite easy. My parents decided to surround themselves with people who would lead us to heaven, and that's exactly what my husband and I have decided to do.” Travis & Samantha Brenneman


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## Lucia

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=RDCMUCl1f-ycmvtYCnlymtjwva0w&feature=share&playnext=1


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## Lucia

Catholic programming online streaming service like pureflix 
Called Formed 
https://formed.org/
Also earn has an all encompassing app podcasts live stream adoration at the App Store


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## Belle Du Jour

Ladies!!! I discovered two catholic fitness programs that have free trials:

www.soulcore.com

www.pietrafitness.com

These are EXCELLENT alternatives to yoga.  I know there's some controversy about yoga...when I converted I was told "Catholics can't do yoga" so I threw my DVDs away and stopped taking classes.  But a very devout acquaintance told me she does yoga and after a discussion with her, I spoke to TWO priests about it.  They both said it was fine *if *purely done for exercise.  No chanting, etc.  

But now that I learned about the two catholic practices above, I'm good! I'm curious to know what you think about practicing yoga for health or if you've heard of those other practices?


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## Belle Du Jour

Lucia said:


> Catholic programming online streaming service like pureflix
> Called Formed
> https://formed.org/
> Also earn has an all encompassing app podcasts live stream adoration at the App Store



Formed has good programming


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## Lucia




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## Lucia

Belle Du Jour said:


> Ladies!!! I discovered two catholic fitness programs that have free trials:
> 
> www.soulcore.com
> 
> www.pietrafitness.com
> 
> These are EXCELLENT alternatives to yoga.  I know there's some controversy about yoga...when I converted I was told "Catholics can't do yoga" so I threw my DVDs away and stopped taking classes.  But a very devout acquaintance told me she does yoga and after a discussion with her, I spoke to TWO priests about it.  They both said it was fine *if *purely done for exercise.  No chanting, etc.
> 
> But now that I learned about the two catholic practices above, I'm good! I'm curious to know what you think about practicing yoga for health or if you've heard of those other practices?



I don’t want you or any other sister or brother in Christ falling into error with a little glossed over explanation and a smile. I hope you take this in the spirit in which it was written.

Let me explain why Catholics or any other Christians should not do Yoga.
Yoga comes from Eastern most specifically Hindu  polytheistic belief of many gods. It is impossible to separate yoga stretching from the prayer and meditation of yoga chants because the chants are what you say to invoke the false demon gods of Hinduism AND the poses are all actual prayers to the false gods and the poses are what you do to call those spirits to come into your life your mind body and spirit.

Many Christians are under the delusion that they can practice yoga and still be Christian that they can chant to Budha Krishna and Kali and still be Christian they think that they can practice witchcraft Kabala  voodoo Wicca etc... and still be Christians. It it a delusion that will lead to falling off from the faith and heresy and it is an open doorway to the occult.

These women have good intentions they have not done their deep dived into what yoga truly is but they’ve based their programs on a false teaching a lie from the father of lies that you can both be a true practicing Catholic and practice yoga. This is called syncretism (spelling) . It’s when people fuse 2 or more different beliefs that really do not align at there core. That’s what these women have done it’s very common error but it’s very dangerous to ones faith and spirituality.

The priest that said that as long as you don’t chant is also in error and has not done his due diligence on the spiritual aspects and true origins of yoga. Just to reiterate that point when contraceptives came on the scene do you know that there were priests telling people that contraceptions was OK.
Now We KNOW  that ain’t Catholic.
You can look that up and verify. So there are priests who fall into error cough Martin Luther cough.

Secondly theres a myth running rampant that somehow yoga will make you thin and tone since when does just stretching do that? Ummmm never. Most people who do yoga will also do some other form of exercise.  Most yogis fast for many days that’s how they get that lean look it’s not really the yoga also I’ve seen plenty a fat person who does yoga on the regular with no weight loss, you know I’m just saying.

Look at my post mid page
https://longhaircareforum.com/threa...planation-of-why-inside.674177/#post-24797391

Also check it these books by Fr Chacon great resource.
They explain all the false doctrines and heresy in a short summary form booklets. From  Mary to new age yoga to enlightenment atheism to JWs Mormons  Muslims etc...

Spelling corrected syncretism.


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## Belle Du Jour

Thanks @Lucia 
I’m excited that Pietra fitness and soulcore are available and incorporate fitness and faith!


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## Shimmie

Lucia said:


> I don’t want you or any other sister or brother in Christ falling into error with a little glossed over explanation and a smile. I hope you take this in the spirit in which it was written.
> 
> Let me explain why Catholics or any other Christians should not do Yoga.
> Yoga comes from Eastern most specifically Hindu  polytheistic belief of many gods. It is impossible to separate yoga stretching from the prayer and meditation of yoga chants because the chants are what you say to invoke the false demon gods of Hinduism AND the poses are all actual prayers to the false gods and the poses are what you do to call those spirits to come into your life your mind body and spirit.
> 
> Many Christians are under the delusion that they can practice yoga and still be Christian that they can chant to Budha Krishna and Kali and still be Christian they think that they can practice witchcraft Kabala  voodoo Wicca etc... and still be Christians. It it a delusion that will lead to falling off from the faith and heresy and it is an open doorway to the occult.
> 
> These women have good intentions they have not done their deep dived into what yoga truly is but they’ve based their programs on a false teaching a lie from the father of lies that you can both be a true practicing Catholic and practice yoga. This is called synchronism. It’s when people fuse 2 or more different beliefs that really do not align at there core. That’s what these women have done it’s very common error but it’s very dangerous to ones faith and spirituality.
> 
> The priest that said that as long as you don’t chant is also in error and has not done his due diligence on the spiritual aspects and true origins of yoga. Just to reiterate that point when contraceptives came on the scene do you know that there were priests telling people that contraceptions was OK.
> Now We KNOW  that ain’t Catholic.
> You can look that up and verify. So there are priests who fall into error cough Martin Luther cough.
> 
> Secondly theres a myth running rampant that somehow yoga will make you thin and tone since when does just stretching do that? Ummmm never. Most people who do yoga will also do some other form of exercise.  Most yogis fast for many days that’s how they get that lean look it’s not really the yoga also I’ve seen plenty a fat person who does yoga on the regular with no weight loss, you know I’m just saying.
> 
> Look at my post mid page
> https://longhaircareforum.com/threa...planation-of-why-inside.674177/#post-24797391
> 
> Also check it these books by Fr Chacon great resource.
> They explain all the false doctrines and heresy in a short summary form booklets. From  Mary to new age yoga to enlightenment atheism to JWs Mormons  Muslims etc...



@Lucia, this is so warm and beautifully shared.   The key word "synchronism " is a saving grace to open our eyes to those things disguised.    

satan steals the wool of the sheep to cover their eyes from his exp!oits. Yet, we have the Precious Holy Spirit who keeps us in God's truth a d light.   All Praises to Jesus, Amen and Amen


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## Lucia

Shimmie said:


> @Lucia, this is so warm and beautifully shared.   The key word "synchronism " is a saving grace to open our eyes to those things disguised.
> 
> satan steals the wool of the sheep to cover their eyes from his exp!oits. Yet, we have the Precious Holy Spirit who keeps us in God's truth a d light.   All Praises to Jesus, Amen and Amen



Yes @Shimmie 
we have to be careful as women what we let into our lives and homes.


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## Lucia

Religious syncretism 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_syncretism


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## Galadriel

Belle Du Jour said:


> Ladies!!! I discovered two catholic fitness programs that have free trials:
> 
> www.soulcore.com
> 
> www.pietrafitness.com
> 
> These are EXCELLENT alternatives to yoga.  I know there's some controversy about yoga...when I converted I was told "Catholics can't do yoga" so I threw my DVDs away and stopped taking classes.  But a very devout acquaintance told me she does yoga and after a discussion with her, I spoke to TWO priests about it.  They both said it was fine *if *purely done for exercise.  No chanting, etc.
> 
> But now that I learned about the two catholic practices above, I'm good! I'm curious to know what you think about practicing yoga for health or if you've heard of those other practices?



I've heard of soulcore but not the pietra fitness. I've just been doing weights and Zumba!


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## Lucia




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## Lucia




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## Lucia

Bishop Vigano warns Trump about the Baphomet.  Pay attention to Freemasons, JK Rowling and Fr Martin, Washington Catholic Bishop and the Pope being called out.
Ephesians 6:12 For we fight not against flesh and blood but against spiritual wickedness in high places...  Dr Taylor Marshall also has online classes. Also see his interview with Jesse Romero.


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## Lucia




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## Lucia

Church warns yoga, feng shui practitioners
					

WHEN SAINTS COME MARCHING IN Zombies and phantoms, move over. Children choose to don the garb of holy men and women on the eve of All Saints’ Day during a “march of saints” led by Manila




					lifestyle.inquirer.net


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## Lucia

For those who are still on the fence about yoga and Hinduism. Just for the record Hinduism is not compatible with Christianity.


10 HINDU GODS, GODDESSES AND YOGA POSTURES YOU NEED TO KNOW

Colorful, vibrant, musical, and story-driven, Hinduism is a religion that inspires many across the globe. It is a faith-filled to the brim with gods and goddesses.

In fact, there are over 33 million Hindu gods in total!

There are some you may have heard of: Shiva, Vishnu, Ganesh, or Brahma, to name a few.

Maybe you’ve seen a statue of the elephant-headed Ganesh, the god of beginnings and remover of obstacles.

Or perhaps you’ve seen a portrait of the mighty blue Shiva, the god of destruction, slaying a demon.



Maybe you’ve never seen any of them! Regardless of if you are just learning, taking a spiritual pilgrimage to India, or a yoga teacher training, learning about the Hindu gods is exciting and inspiring.

The stories of Hindu gods tell the tales of good versus evil, light versus dark, power, balance, and virtue.

Hinduism in India

Yoga and Hinduism are often practices that go hand-in-hand in the West but are more deeply fused and widely practiced in India. Appropriately so, because India is their birthplace. 80% of the population of India identifies with the belief system and recognizes these major Hindu gods.

Stories of these gods are the foundation of Hinduism. They teach about the values and aims of human life and the path to enlightenment.

Hindu mythology has long been a way to pass down these teachings. Hindus worship the gods and goddesses through devotional prayer and meditation. Many perform this kind of “puja’ (worship) in a shrine.



Shrines are a special place you create for prayer and meditation. For instance, they can be anything from altars, rooms, and even pictures and sculptures.

Worshippers decorate these shrines with offerings. These offerings may include mantra or prayer, incense, and flowers. They can be any kind of precious item- provided the person gives it with love and devotion.

Throughout India, you can see incredibly decorated shrines dedicated to different gods. Statues, images, and buildings are colorfully decorated and often fragrant with flowers, especially during important holidays.

ganesh celebration - 10 hindu gods you should know

Practice for the non-Hindu

*You don’t have to subscribe to these religious beliefs to benefit from the beauty of the practice.*

For example, you can create a quiet, spiritual space with your favorite items. In other words, any objects that help you to focus your mind and bring you joy.

*If you want to tap into these powerful gods and goddesses, you can cultivate a meditation practice with one in mind. You could even have a statue or image of your favorite god or goddess somewhere in your space of practice.*

This can help you focus your attention on whatever qualities your chosen figure represents: wisdom, knowledge, peace, or power, for example.

People have many different kinds of objects on their altars that aren’t religious symbols too. For instance, you can use objects like pictures of teachers or a matriarchal grandmother, a rock or seashell from a meaningful place, or a flower that recalls a special memory.

If it serves you, you can combine all of these things into one. The point is to make your space of worship unique to your practice.

Yoga and your Hindu Gods inspired practice

altar shrine yogi aaron 10 hindu deitiesIf you are inspired by these Hindu deities, you can find their energies through yoga. Trying specific postures can awaken those dormant energies that are already within you.

*There are plenty of poses linked to the broad range of powers that each deity holds*. Some of these postures focus on building strength. Other yoga poses center around building mental clarity.

*Each of these postures can help you bring the strength from the gods of Hinduism into your daily spiritual practice.*

IF YOU’RE LOOKING TO PUT YOUR DEVOTION INTO MOTION, HERE ARE 10 HINDU DEITIES AND YOGA POSES YOU SHOULD KNOW

10 Hindu deities you should know

BRAHMA

The first deity of the Hindu trinity, Lord Brahma, is the god of creation. The trinity being, Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva. Brahma contains the entire cosmos and all its creatures.

They say you don’t have to be Hindu to practice these things but then it clearly states that when your engaging in these practices specifically doing the poses with your body you’re tapping into the power of said god or goddess. So if you practice hinduism hen you’re a practicing hindu and no longer Christian.
A man cannot serve 2 masters.....
This is from a yoga Hindu website.

This is why yoga Hinduism is not compatible with Christianity.

Entire article here








						10 Hindu Gods and Goddesses You Need to Know
					

With over 33 million Hindu Gods and Goddesses, which ones whould you learn about? Here's our top 10 Hindu Gods and Goddesses you should know before YTT.




					www.blueosa.com


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## Lucia




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## Lucia




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## Lucia




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## Belle Du Jour

I agree with everything this woman posted. I’m also praying that PE Biden will have a conversion of heart while in office.


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## Lucia

Fr Mike has Podcast









						‎The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz) on Apple Podcasts
					

‎Christianity · 2021



					podcasts.apple.com


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## Lucia

Fr Josh has a podcast too 









						‎Ask Father Josh (Your Catholic Question and Answer Podcast) on Apple Podcasts
					

‎Religion & Spirituality · 2021



					podcasts.apple.com


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## Lucia

Wait for it.....


the late Ven. Bishop Fulton Sheen a podcast.









						‎Life Is Worth Living: A Fulton J. Sheen Catholic Podcast on Apple Podcasts
					

‎Christianity · 2021



					podcasts.apple.com


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## Lucia

Belle Du Jour said:


> I agree with everything this woman posted. I’m also praying that PE Biden will have a conversion of heart while in office.



DROP.THE.MIC!


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## Lucia

There a new  service for Catholics called Formed has a lot of wholesome programs and informative documentaries and specials.






						Formed · The Catholic Faith. On demand.
					






					formed.org


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## Lucia




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## Lucia

Fr Ripberger interview on the protective and healing power of Gregorian Chant.








						‎Sensus Fidelium Catholic Podcast: Resistance Podcast #165: Importance of Gregorian Chant ~ Chris Jasper w/ Fr. Ripperger on Apple Podcasts
					

‎Show Sensus Fidelium Catholic Podcast, Ep Resistance Podcast #165: Importance of Gregorian Chant ~ Chris Jasper w/ Fr. Ripperger - Mar 10, 2021



					podcasts.apple.com


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## Lucia

TFP Standing against cultural crisis on our universities


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## Galadriel

Lucia said:


>


Watched that recently. It was very insightful! I've also been listening to Fr. Chad Ripperger's talks.


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## Lucia

Full interview 

Milo has over the past few years converted from his homosexual lifestyle.
Praise God! His love endures forever.

Joeseph Nicolosi PHD book mentioned









						Shame And Attachment Loss: The Practical Work Of Reparative Therapy (revised edition, with NEW CHAPTER on EMDR)  by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. (Softcover, 474 pages.) — Joseph Nicolosi - Reparative Therapy®
					

INTERNATIONAL ORDERS – Orders taken through our web site are for DOMESTIC delivery only. For the names of online booksellers who will ship internationally, please contact us at    [email protected]   .    Domestic Orders: We mail each book out by Priority Mail. Although this increases the mailing




					www.josephnicolosi.com


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## Lucia




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## Lucia




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## Lucia

54 day novena Rosary starting today


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## Lucia

Find Peace
					

Find peace today! Our team is praying for you




					youtube.com


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## Lucia

Invite your friends to pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet together!
					

Our rosary beads now support the Divine Mercy Chaplet, and you can invite your friends to pray with you in your small groups! Not sure how to start a small g...




					youtube.com


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## Lucia




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## Galadriel

Lucia said:


> Invite your friends to pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet together!
> 
> 
> Our rosary beads now support the Divine Mercy Chaplet, and you can invite your friends to pray with you in your small groups! Not sure how to start a small g...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> youtube.com


Taught my kids the Rosary and will also pray the Divine Mercy chaplet with them.


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