# Know It Or Not, You Have A Dual Existence!



## Nice & Wavy (Apr 9, 2009)

This is good

**********************

     "Though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day," II Corinthians 4:16. Thus the apostle Paul introduces the difficult subject of the two-fold nature of man.

    In the account of the Creation, Genesis chapters 1 and 2, we read of the forming of the first man. It is said there that "The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul," Genesis 2:7. Contrary to popular belief, this passage deals only with the physical side of man--or in Paul’s words, the "outward man". The "breathing into man’s nostrils the breath of life" simply refers to the giving of physical life to the man, for the result is that he "became a living soul"--a living being, or individual. The word "soul" is used many times to refer to physical life, or a living individual--even in the animal kingdom, Job 12:10.

    God said of that outward, physical man--that "living soul"--that it would "return unto the ground, for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return," Genesis 3:19. Yet Solomon shows, that’s not all there is to a man; there is something more, something beyond the grave; when he says in Ecclesiastes 12:7 that "the dust shall return to the earth as it was (there’s the physical body of Genesis 2 and 3); and the *spirit *shall return unto God Who gave it (there is the "something more")".

    Certainly there is a kinship between our physical bodies and that of the animals. Scientists have been misled into the errors of Organic Evolution partly because of their observations that we are made like the animals, although somewhat more refined (or "evolved"). Of course, the existence of a common Designer would explain the similarities of design much better than the current theories of progressive evolution over eons of time. But, although we are made like the animals, Genesis 2:7 and 2:19 saying that both man and beast were created from the dust of the ground; still there is a way in which we are very *unlike *the animal kingdom: It is said only of *man *that he was created "in God’s image", Genesis 1:27. There is something, then, unique to man and lacking in animals, that reflects the very image of God.

    God is a Spirit, John 4:24 says, and so has no physical image at all. Luke 24:39 states "A spirit hath not flesh and bones." God is spiritual, and immortal; so man, made in His image, must somehow also have an immortal, spiritual nature. This nature the Bible calls the "inner man". This "inner man", this immortal, spiritual part of man, made in the image of God, is usually called in the Bible man’s "spirit". For instance, Paul asks the question in I Corinthians 2:11, "What man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him?" Occasionally it is referred to by the word "soul", although that word usually means only "physical life", as we have seen. 

One good example of this exceptional usage is Matthew 10:28, in which *Jesus said, "Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Hell.*" Another passage in which the "inner, eternal" man is referred to as the "soul" is Acts 2:27, which pictures *Jesus speaking to God about His resurrection: "Thou wilt not leave My soul in Hell, neither wilt Thou suffer Thine Holy One to see corruption*." Peter explained this clearly in v. 31: "His *soul *was not left in Hell, neither did His *flesh *see corruption."

    The relative worth of these two parts of man can be easily seen when we hear the apostle Peter speak of the physical body, the "outward man", as the "tabernacle" in which he dwelt for awhile, II Peter 1:13-15. Paul also used this figure of a "tabernacle" or tent, II Corinthians 5:1, and described death as a "dissolving" of that Earthly temporary dwelling-place. The faithful Christian looks forward to this happening, as he knows that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God," I Corinthians 15:50. Heaven is a *spiritual *place; and is the eternal home of the *spiritual *side of man--the "inward man".

    Don’t worry so much about the physical man--the inevitable end of your "outward" side is the grave. Be concerned with, and cultivate, that "inward" man--the spirit that will live forever. Nourish him with the milk and meat of God’s word, Hebrews 5:13-14; I Peter 2:2. That’s the important part of man; that’s the part that will live forever.  

    But what does this mean for you? Read on to find out...

*How will you face--Death? *


    "This day I am going the way of all the Earth," Joshua said, in Joshua 23:14, as he lay dying. Joshua realized, as everyone does who has seen much of life at all, that in a very real way death is an inseparable part of life. God told Adam, after the fall of man, in Genesis 3:19, "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, until thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." From the other end of the Bible, Hebrews 9:27 tells us in no uncertain terms: "It is appointed unto man *once to die...*".

    No-one has ever avoided death, with the remarkable exceptions of two Bible characters: Enoch, Genesis 5:24, Hebrews 11:5; and Elijah, II Kings 2:11. Except for these two, everyone who has ever lived on the face of the Earth, including our Lord, has died. It seems to be safe, then, to assume that everyone will continue to die in the future. David asked, in Psalm 89:48, "What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? Shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave?"

    But by and large, we are afraid to talk about death; we even fear the sound of the word, and so we speak of someone "passing on" or "passing away"; or "going to sleep" or just being "gone". Perhaps we don’t like to be reminded of our own mortality and certain eventual death; and as a result we almost resent the person who dies, for bringing us face-to-face with it.

    Death is feared largely because it is unknown. We have no word from "the other side" to tell us what to expect, and it’s just human nature to fear the unfamiliar. Many times the tears shed at funerals are really tears of fear--fear of the time when *we’ll *be making that journey--as well as tears of sorrow for the one who has died.

    But it doesn’t have to be that way: God, as the Father of us all, Ephesians 4:6, still cares for us even at death: In Genesis 3:19 God said, "For dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return"; but Solomon gives us this inspired commentary on that passage, in Ecclesiastes 12:7: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it." Death may be a journey into the unknown, but God is still in control of it--and He has made preparation for those who are counted as His children: Jesus spoke these words of comfort to His disciples: "Let not your hearts be troubled: Ye believe in God; believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself, that where I am, there ye may be also," John 14:1-3.

    But notice carefully: that is a promise only to Jesus’ followers. For this reason John wrote in Revelation 14:13 "Blessed are the dead which die *in the Lord...*", and Paul pointed out in I Thessalonians 4:13 that Christians don’t have to sorrow about their dead loved ones, as "others do, which have no hope."

    The Bible’s message is clear: Death is not a terrifying thing to followers of God and Christ; for the Father will see them through it. But there is no comfort at all in the Bible for those in rebellion to God; those who have rejected His Son. When death is near--that’s when Christianity takes on its full meaning; having a hope after death is what it’s all about.

If you’re facing death--and every one of us is--then don’t be in doubt about your condition before God. Death is too sure; Eternity is too long; Hell is too hot, and your soul is too precious--not to be sure. Search the Scriptures; "examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves," II Corinthians 13:5.


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## divya (Apr 9, 2009)

I do not believe in a dual existence for a number of reasons... Here is a good analysis.

*IMMORTALITY? Ekkehardt Mueller*

“Is death necessary?“, asked biologist G. R. Taylor and stated that in 1968 in the USA alone more than a thousand teams of scientists were working on the issue of growing old and the problem of death. Some people are frozen at their death. They want to be revived as soon as a cure for their disease or the aging process has been found. *Most of humanity seems to have the desire to live forever. Many people claim that although their body is mortal, their soul is not. Therefore the question must be asked: Is there a natural immortality of humans or their soul?*

*I. The Immortal Soul and Scripture*
1. Scripture and Immortality

There are only two biblical passages using the word “immortality”:
(1) 1 Tim 6:14-16 - God alone possesses immortality.
(2) 1 Cor 15:51-54 - Only at their resurrection, when Jesus comes again, will believers receive immortality.

*Eternal life is always dependent on Jesus. Without Him there is no everlasting life, not on earth, nor in heaven, nor in hell *- Rom 6:23; John 3:36; 5:24; 1 John 5:11, 12.

*2. Scripture and Soul*

The Hebrew and Greek terms translated “soul” can be rendered in different ways. They stand for “life” (Gen 9:4; Matt 2:20), “heart” (Eph 6:6), “emotions” (Song 1:7; Mark 14:34), and frequently for “person”:

(1) Humans do not have a “soul” but are a “soul” - 1 Cor 15:45; Gen 2:7.
(2) Even animals are “souls” - Gen 1:20; 9:10; Rev 16:3.
(3) The “soul” can weep - Jer 13:17.
(4) “Souls” can be taken captive - Jer 52:28-30.
(5) “Souls” can be baptized - Acts 2:41.
(6) The “soul” can die - Eze 18:4; Jas 5:20; Rev 20:4; Ps 89:48; Job 36:14; Lev 19:8; 21:1, 11.

*Result: Very often the term “soul” designates the entire human being. It is not used in connection with immortality. The concept of an immortal soul is not found in the Bible.*

_____________________________________________

*II. The Idea of Immortality in History
*
1. Support for the Natural Immortality of the Soul

(1) *Satan* - Gen 3:4 (in contrast to Gen 2:17)
(2) *Pagans *- The doctrine of the immortal soul has been called a characteristic of paganism and has led to ancestor cult, human sacrifices, building of the pyramids, etc.
(3) *The Greeks* - Plato called the body the prison of the soul and understood death as the liberation of the soul. Aristotle shared similar views.
(4*) Churches* - Probably during the 3rd century AD the platonic doctrine of the natural immortality of the soul had already permeated the Christian church. Representatives were Athenagoras, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Augustin. It was fully developed by Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century. In December 1513 the dogma of the natural immortality of the soul was proclaimed by the Roman Catholic Church. Most Protestant Churches have also accepted this doctrine.


*2. Opposition to the Natural Immortality of the Soul*

(1) *God* - Eccl 9:5, 6, 10
(2) *Israel* - Dan 12:13
(3) *Jesus Christ* - John 6:40. Jesus did not experience his death as the liberation of his soul from the prison of his body which he, therefore, should have desired and accepted happily. He suffered.
(4) *Christians* - Early church fathers such as Justin the Martyr, Tatian, Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, and Polycarp rejected this doctrine. Luther was ambivalent. A number of well-known modern Protestant theologians such as Karl Barth, Emil Brunner, and Oscar Cullmann also believe that it has no foundation in Scripture.


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## divya (Apr 9, 2009)

*III. Consequences*

*1. Teachings which Are Not Found in Scripture Are Grounded on the Idea of the Natural Immortality of the Soul*
These doctrines include (1) purgatory, (2) indulgences, (3) prayer, alms, and masses for the dead, (4) the constantly burning hell, (5) veneration of Mary and the saints (cf. 1 Tim 2:5 and Exod 20:4), (6) reincarnation, and (7) spiritualism - Deut 18:10-12; 2 Cor 11, 14.

*2. Biblical Teachings Are Darkened*
(1) The Second Coming of Christ. During church history the second coming of Jesus lost its importance in the Catholic Church and in many Protestant churches.

(2) Resurrection of the Dead. The resurrection is the divine antithesis to the pagan doctrine of the immortality of the soul.

(3) Judgment at the End of the World. Such a judgment would be superfluous if the souls were already in heaven, purgatory, or hell.

*
3. God’s Character Is Darkened*

(1) God would appear to be a liar who cannot be trusted (cf. Gen 2:17).

(2) God would be without compassion allowing people who supposedly had made it to heaven to watch the pain and suffering of their loved ones still living on earth without being able to intervene.

(3) God would be an unjust tyrant who punishes people in hell forever, although they have sinned for a limited time only.

*The doctrine of the natural immortality of the soul creates a cruel picture of God and distorts Scripture. However, Scripture teaches that God is love and cares for us (1 John 4:8-9; Mal 1:2). We have to make the decision whom to trust.*

*God’s Statement *
 ↓
“You will surely die.” 
↓ 
Jesus is the gate to eternal life


*Satan’s Statement*
↓
You surely will not die!
↓ 
Death is the gate to eternal life


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## ktykaty (Apr 9, 2009)

divya said:


> *2. Biblical Teachings Are Darkened*
> (1) The Second Coming of Christ. During church history the second coming of Jesus lost its importance in the Catholic Church and in many Protestant churches.
> 
> (2) Resurrection of the Dead. The resurrection is the divine antithesis to the pagan doctrine of the immortality of the soul.
> ...




As a Catholic I must correct part of what you said:

- We believe in resurrection & in eternal life. As christian we await Jesus' come back to judge the livings and the deads.
- We believe that after the Last Judgement, the dead christians will be resurected.
- There's a huge difference between purgatory & hell. A christian who dies imperfectly purified, is indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. Purgatory is temporary. Hell is the punishment of the damned.

- Concerning Mary, we believe that "The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians", meaning she died and was resurected.

The RCC believe in the dual existence of man. The soul/spirit is the "seed of eternity we bear in ourselves, irreducible to the merely material",that can have its origin only in God. It's not incompatible with believing in resurection, the last judgement or Jesus' return.

Blessings,


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## Shimmie (Apr 9, 2009)

Nice & Wavy said:


> This is good
> 
> **********************
> 
> ...


It is a good and I also understand what you understand.... 

Did I make any sense with that?   I only had one cup of my French Vanilla Coffee today.    I missed my Hazelnut moment.   

Anyway, it is a really good read.      As always, you keep me  on my toes, reading, praying and things that may you go,  Hmmmmmmm,   Oh really now?


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## divya (Apr 9, 2009)

ktykaty said:


> As a Catholic I must correct part of what you said:
> 
> - We believe in resurrection & in eternal life. As christian we await Jesus' come back to judge the livings and the deads.
> - We believe that after the Last Judgement, the dead christians will be resurected.
> ...



Let me clarify a bit. The article does not state that there is no difference between purgatory or hell in the RCC, but rather asserts that it is not Scriptural. Christians and Protestants believe in the second coming and the resurrection, but the issue is with the idea of soul/spirit. I do agree with the article that is incompatible though. 

Take Care.


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## Nice & Wavy (Apr 9, 2009)

Divya, in your first post, you said that you didn't believe in dual existence, the proceeded to quote someone else and their reason for it.  Can you share why YOU don't believe in man having a physical body and a spirit?

I do know that we are a spirit and live in a body.  When we die, our spirit leaves this earthen vessel...that's why when you go to a funeral, you see a shell of a man in the casket...the real person has moved on...the important thing is: Where has he/she gone?  

The Word of God speaks about hell as a literal place.  We MUST believe the whole Word of God, or believe nothing about it at all.

Blessings!



divya said:


> *III. Consequences*
> 
> *1. Teachings which Are Not Found in Scripture Are Grounded on the Idea of the Natural Immortality of the Soul*
> These doctrines include (1) purgatory, (2) indulgences, (3) prayer, alms, and masses for the dead, (4) the constantly burning hell, (5) veneration of Mary and the saints (cf. 1 Tim 2:5 and Exod 20:4), (6) reincarnation, and (7) spiritualism - Deut 18:10-12; 2 Cor 11, 14.
> ...


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## Nice & Wavy (Apr 9, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> It is a good and I also understand what you understand....
> 
> Did I make any sense with that? I only had one cup of my French Vanilla Coffee today. I missed my Hazelnut moment.
> 
> Anyway, it is a really good read.  As always, you keep me on my toes, reading, praying and things that may you go, Hmmmmmmm, Oh really now?


Yes, sis....you did make sense, even without your French Vanilla Coffee

This forum keeps me on my toes girl....and I know when I'm off...the Holy Spirit doesn't allow me to sleep at the wheel


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## PaperClip (Apr 10, 2009)

Disclaimer: I did not read the whole thread so this may be totally irrelevant, but it has always been my understanding that we consist of three parts:

spirit, soul, and body.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (KJV)
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God *your whole spirit and soul and body* be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And that at the end, each part has a specific place:

body = returns to dust (Eccl. 12:7: Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

spirit = returns to God (Eccl 12:7: Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

soul = is what is decided upon: (Matt 10:28: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Also, several scriptures speak to the soul being sorrowful or pleased, needing rest, can be exchanged....


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## Nice & Wavy (Apr 10, 2009)

I am having so many problems with my computer tonight...ughh.  I will answer you all over the weekend.

Blessings.

BTW: You are correct, FS.  I shared this for a specific reason.



FoxyScholar said:


> Disclaimer: I did not read the whole thread so this may be totally irrelevant, but it has always been my understanding that we consist of three parts:
> 
> spirit, soul, and body.
> 
> ...


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## PaperClip (Apr 10, 2009)

Nice & Wavy said:


> I am having so many problems with my computer tonight...ughh. I will answer you all over the weekend.
> 
> Blessings.
> 
> BTW: You are correct, FS. I shared this for a specific reason.


 
Oohhh... ok... Amen... my apologies! I can edit my post out if you want me to....


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## divya (Apr 10, 2009)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Divya, in your first post, you said that you didn't believe in dual existence, the proceeded to quote someone else and their reason for it.  Can you share why YOU don't believe in man having a physical body and a spirit?
> 
> I do know that we are a spirit and live in a body.  When we die, our spirit leaves this earthen vessel...that's why when you go to a funeral, you see a shell of a man in the casket...the real person has moved on...the important thing is: Where has he/she gone?
> 
> ...



Sure, I am happy to share. I believe in our existence as the Bible reveals. The Scriptures state that those who die remain in the grave until the Second Coming, and then those who die wicked until after the 1000 years. It is Jesus' voice that will call those who died out of the grave. 

*
John 5:28 - 29. *_"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."_

Until then, the dead know nothing at all... 

*Ecc. 9:5* _For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten._

Those of us who die in Christ remain in the grave until Christ comes, and then He will give us our reward - immortality! The shout of the Lord and sound of the trump will call those who died in Christ out of the grave.

*
1 Thess 4:16 -17 *_For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:and the dead in Christ shall rise first:Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord
_
*
I Cor 15:52 -54 *_In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. _

Now for the wicked, they will wait longer.

*Rev 20:5* - _But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. _

The term _spirit_ in the Bible is often translated in Greek and Hebrew to breath/breath of life. When we die, our breath of life goes back to God. We who are in Christ do not receive that breath again until the Second Coming.

So yes, I do believe the entire Scriptures. However, I use the Greek and Hebrew for clarification. Never did I state that hell was not a literal place. I stated that the Scriptures use hell to refer to _the grave_. It is translated as such 41 times in the Bible. This is clear from using the Hebrew/Greek translation. There is the lake of fire spoken in the Bible as well, 12 times with the word hell as gehenna. However, the Bible refers to that in the future, not currently. When we die, we go to the grave (hell). Hell does mean the grave. I find use of the Greek translation very important in understanding exactly what is being referred to. 

*Revelation 22:12* - _And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be._

Christ is coming to give all their reward. There is no hellfire burning beneath us now or any spirits of humans that are congregated in heaven.

So yes, I believe the whole Word of God and search the Scriptures deeply to understand the meaning of the verses.


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## divya (Apr 10, 2009)

Another reason, I do not believe the people have immortal entities within them is because the Bible states that God alone is immortal and that He will reward us immortality if we are among the righteous. Here is a good explanation...

*
Undying, Immortal Soul?*

_*Doesn't the Bible speak of the "undying," "immortal" soul?*_

No, the undying, immortal soul is not mentioned in the Bible. The word "immortal" is found only once in the Bible, and it is in reference to God (1 Timothy 1:17).


*Since man is made in the image of God and God is immortal isn't man then also immortal?*

Why should only one of God's attributes, that of immortality, be singled out for comparison?  God is all-powerful.  Does it therefore follow that man, made in the image of God, is also all-powerful?  God is all-wise.  Is man therefore possessed of boundless wisdom, because made in God’s image?

*The Bible uses the word “immortality” only five times, and the word “immortal” only once.  In this lone instance the term is applied to God: “Eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God.” 1 Tim. 1:17.  The five references that contain the word “immortality” are as follows:*

*   1. Romans 2:7.*  In this text the Christian is exhorted to “seek” for immortality.  Why should he seek for it if he already possesses it?  In this same book of Romans, Paul quotes the prophet Elijah as saying of his enemies, “They seek my life.”  We understand from this that the prophet’s enemies did not yet have his life in their hands.  Therefore, when we are exhorted to seek for immortality, for a life that knows no end, we must conclude that we do not now possess such a life.

*
   2. 2 Timothy 1:10.*  Here we learn that Christ “brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.”  The only deduction from this is that so far from immortality’s being a natural possession of all men, it is one of the good things made possible through the gospel.  Paul wrote, “The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ.”  Rom. 6:23.  Why would we need this gift if we already had undying souls?

* 3. 1 Corinthians 15:53. * This passage tells when we shall receive immortality.  The time is “at the last trump.”  Then “this mortal must put on immortality.”  Why should the apostle Paul speak of our putting on immortality at a future date if we already possess it?

*4. 1 Corinthians 15:54.*  This verse simply adds the thought that when “this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

*5. 1 Timothy 6:16.*  Here we learn that God “only hath immortality.”  This final text settles the matter as conclusively as words could possibly do, and explains fully why we are exhorted to “seek” immortality, and why we are told that immortality is something that is to be “put on” “at the last trump.”

Not only do we learn from these texts that we do not have immortality, but also we are told that God alone has it.

There are other texts which contain in the original Greek the same word that is translated “immortal” or “immortality” in the six texts we have just considered.  But these additional texts do not require us to change our conclusion; on the contrary they strengthen it.  Take, for example, Romans 1:23, where Paul, speaking of the idolatrous action of the heathen, says that they “changed the glory of the uncorruptible [immortal] God into an image made like to corruptible [mortal] man.”  In the Greek, the word here translated “uncorruptible” is the same as that rendered “immortal” in 1 Timothy 1:17:  “Eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God.”  The Expositor’s Bible translates the passage thus:  “Transmuted the glory of the immortal God in a semblance of the likeness of mortal man.”  The uncorruptible, the immortal God is sharply contrasted with corruptible, mortal man.

*We read in John 5:26 that the “Father hath life in himself,” and that He hath “given to the Son to have life in Himself.”  But nowhere do we read that God gave to human beings to have life in themselves.  That is why the Bible never speaks of man as immortal.*

http://www.helltruth.com/q-a/undying-immortal-soul.aspx


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## Jenibo (Apr 10, 2009)

Wow this came at a perfect time for me as I am going through some things right now concerning this. Satan has attacked me with a spirit of fear but i have been fervently seeking God's face and I keep remembering that to be absent from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord. God has already revealed to me that I am going to be free and be joyous and I thank him for that and I trust Him with my body, and soul/spirit.


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## alexstin (Apr 10, 2009)

FoxyScholar said:


> Disclaimer: I did not read the whole thread so this may be totally irrelevant, but it has always been my understanding that we consist of three parts:
> 
> spirit, soul, and body.
> 
> ...




 we are spirits that have souls and live in a body



divya said:


> Another reason, I do not believe the people have immortal entities within them is because the Bible states that God alone is immortal and that He will reward us immortality if we are among the righteous. Here is a good explanation...
> 
> *
> Undying, Immortal Soul?*
> ...



So do you believe we only exist if we have a body?


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## divya (Apr 10, 2009)

alexstin said:


> So do you believe we only exist if we have a body?



I believe we exist as conscious beings only when God place His breath of life in our bodies.


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## PaperClip (Apr 10, 2009)

divya said:


> I believe we exist as conscious beings only when God place His breath of life in our bodies.


 
Again, I'm doing another drive-by post here so bear with me!

This post brought this to my mind to note that consciousness is still in place beyond/outside of the physical body:

St. Luke 16 (Amplified)

19There was a certain rich man who [habitually] clothed himself in purple and fine linen and reveled and feasted and made merry in splendor every day.  20And at his gate there was [carelessly] dropped down and left a certain utterly destitute man named Lazarus, [reduced to begging alms and] covered with [ulcerated] sores. 21He [eagerly] desired to be satisfied with what fell from the rich man's able; moreover, the dogs even came and licked his sores. 22And it occurred that the man [reduced to] begging died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 


*23And in Hades (the realm of the dead), being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom. *
*24And he cried out and said, Father Abraham, have pity and mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.*


***Note: Recall Eccl 12:7 which says where the spirit goes and where the body goes at death***


 25But Abraham said, Child, remember that you in your lifetime fully received [what is due you in] comforts and delights, and Lazarus in like manner the discomforts and distresses; but now he is comforted here and *you are in anguish*. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who want to pass from this [place] to you may not be able, and no one may pass from there to us.


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## blazingthru (Apr 10, 2009)

The Rich Man and Lazarus
Another passage of Scripture that many find difficult to *reconcile with the truth *about hellfire is the story of the rich man and Lazarus, found in Luke chapter 16. But by realizing that this passage is a parable-at the end of a long list of parables-we can understand better the imagery Jesus employs. 

Certainly Abraham's bosom is not the eternal abode of the redeemed, and it seems impossible that the lost in hell can converse with the saved in heaven. When we remember that hell takes place at the end of the world, and that there are no people suffering in hell at this present time, we can determine more exactly three major points contained in Jesus' remarks. 

By representing the beggar as being in heaven and the rich man as lost, Jesus taught His hearers that, contrary to the prevailing view, wealth was not necessarily an indicator of divine favor, just as poverty was not a sign of God's judgment upon a person. 

Jesus was also seeking to educate the Jews that salvation would not be theirs by birthright. The rich man in torments calls out to "father Abraham," just as the Jews of Jesus' day were mistakenly pointing to heritage as proof of their assurance of salvation. 

Furthermore, Jesus was seeking to lead His hearers to understand that only faithfulness to God's Word would prepare them to enter into eternal life. He told them, "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead" (Luke 16:31). 

To use the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in order to promote the false doctrine of an eternally burning hell is to misuse God's Word and to misrepresent His character.


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## blazingthru (Apr 10, 2009)

The spirit that returns to God at death is the *breath of life.* Nowhere in all of God's book does the "spirit" have any life, wisdom, or feeling after a person dies. It is the "breath of life" and nothing more. 

In the Bible the word immortal is used only once and the word immortality is used five times. In not one instance is either of these words used to describe a part of man that is always alive. Here are the verses as they are found in the King James Version of the Bible:

"Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen." 1 Timothy 1:17

"To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:" Romans 2:7 

"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." 1 Corinthians 15:53

"So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." 1 Corinthians 15:54 

"Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen." 1 Timothy 6:16 

"But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:" 2 Timothy 1:10 

All six references to immortality are either a description of God or describe a gift that is given to man from God, immortality is not an inherant aspect of man.


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## hurricane (Apr 10, 2009)

Hmm...very interesting. I always though that we are spiritual beings, since God himself is a spirit. Meaning that we have an existence outside of our bodies. I need help with this soul business. I always thought the soul was the carnal man, meaning the flesh.

Spirt-original nature
soul- fleshly desires
body-physical 

Our flesh is what causes us to sin because it is in opposition to our spirtual nature. Help me please....?


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## divya (Apr 10, 2009)

FoxyScholar said:


> Again, I'm doing another drive-by post here so bear with me!
> 
> This post brought this to my mind to note that consciousness is still in place beyond/outside of the physical body:
> 
> ...



The whole point of the parable is stated in verse 31, that a person needs to respond to the Scriptures while he is alive, when he is still able, when it will still be able to do some good. *Any application beyond the stated meaning, is to stretch the passage and its purpose, and places it in conflict with other Scripture. Let us notice some.
*

1. *The dead are said to be "asleep" Acts 7:60, 1Thessalonians 4:14, to name just two.* When a person is asleep, he is unconscious, he knows nothing, he is totally unaware of his surroundings and of anyone else. Time means nothing. 

2.  If this is not clear enough *Ecclesiastes 9:4-10* states in much detail the condition of the dead. There are many things said that cause much conflict if the verses in Luke 16:19-31 are to be taken literally. Jesus did not teach an untruth here, any more than He did in any other parable, and we should not try to make it mean more than the reason He gave. Among the things this passage says are: 

*1."the dead know nothing" 
2. "they have no further reward" 
3. "the memory of them is forgotten" [this does not mean OUR memory of them, but THEIR memory] 
4. Their emotions have vanished 
5. "never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun" 
6. "there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom" among the dead.*

*We must put an interpretation on the passage in Luke that is consistent with all these other passages, which are not figurative. None of these things can be said of those mentioned in Luke.*

The rich man is pictured in "hell" where he is "tormented in this flame", while Lazarus is "comforted", if it is a true and literal account, that is a "reward", that the dead are said not to have - certainly not the case in Hades. *That wont happen prior to the judgement Matthew 25:46, Romans 14:11-12, Hebrews 9:27 which hasn’t happened yet. And it wont happen in hades - the abode of the dead. The dead cannot be contacted, neither do they contact others.*

In the resurrection of the dead John 5:28-29, they will again have a memory, "there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth", but this will be the end of the world, and the judgment - and the results,eternal.

http://www.bibletruths.net/Archives/BTAR131.htm

_____________________

Lastly...

*Ecclesiates 12:7* - _Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it._

The translation of the word _spirit_ in Hebrew is _ruach_. Ruach simply means _breath._

Here is a further explanation: 

*Problem:*
    This passage is cited as evidence that man's immortal spirit (or soul) leaves the body at death and returns to God.
*
Solution:*

   1. The passage makes *no* distinction between "good" and "bad" spirits.

   2. If the spirit is to return to God, it must have come from God. But who would suggest one has a conscious existence before the earthly life begins? Therefore, there is no reason to expect a conscious existence when this life ends.

   3. The word "spirit" (Hebrew "ruach") is the same as in Ecc. 3:19 (Heb. "ruach", translated "breath"). could any argue that beasts have, or are, immortal "spirits"?

* 4. The writer of Ecclesiastes emphatically teaches the mortality of man. (See Ecc. 9:5,6,10; 3:19,20). *


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## divya (Apr 10, 2009)

*Just for clarification purposes: *

*Ecclesiates 9:5-10 * - _For the living know that they shall die: but* the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.* Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is *now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.*

Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works. Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment. Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, *in the grave, whither thou goest.*_


The parable in Luke must be understood for its purpose. It is should not be the foundation for doctrine regarding life after death. *The Bible tells us over and over again what happens when we die and when our reward shall be given to us. *

*Revelation 22:12* - _And, behold, I come quickly; *and my reward is with me*, to give every man according as his work shall be._

*
1 Thess 4:16 -17* _For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and *with the trump of God:and the dead in Christ shall rise first:Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them* in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord _

*I Cor 15:52 -54* _In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, *at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. *So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory._

*Rev 20:5* - _But *the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.* This is the first resurrection. _

*John 5:28 - 29*_ "Marvel not at this: f*or the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."*._


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## PaperClip (Apr 10, 2009)

For clarity, as my posts have been on the peripheral of the core points of this thread.



blazingthru said:


> To use the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in order to promote the false doctrine of an eternally burning hell is to misuse God's Word and to misrepresent His character.


 
My mention of the chapter of St. Luke was noted merely to indicate consciousness of a soul beyond/outside of the body/spirit, not necessarily to highlight the comfort or discomfort of the individuals mentioned in the passage.



divya said:


> The whole point of the parable is stated in verse 31, that a person needs to respond to the Scriptures while he is alive, when he is still able, when it will still be able to do some good. *Any application beyond the stated meaning, is to stretch the passage and its purpose, and places it in conflict with other Scripture. Let us notice some.*
> 
> 
> 1. *The dead are said to be "asleep" Acts 7:60, 1Thessalonians 4:14, to name just two.* When a person is asleep, he is unconscious, he knows nothing, he is totally unaware of his surroundings and of anyone else. Time means nothing.
> ...


 
No disagreement with you about the word "spirit" but the beginning and end result of that spirit/breath is with God. That breath comes from God and returns to God. That body is made from dust and the same body returns to dust.

There is a definite distinction between the soul and spirit. 

The soul is conscious. Even when we sleep in the natural on earth, we are not unconscious. 

It is my understanding that those who are asleep are those who die in Christ (saved, redeemed, repented, etc.). Those who die outside of Christ are not in eternal damnation (yet....)


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## divya (Apr 10, 2009)

FoxyScholar said:


> For clarity, as my posts have been on the peripheral of the core points of this thread.
> 
> 
> My mention of the chapter of St. Luke was noted merely to indicate consciousness of a soul beyond/outside of the body/spirit, not necessarily to highlight the comfort or discomfort of the individuals mentioned in the passage.
> ...



This is a major basis for my beliefs...

*Ecclesiates 9:5-10*  -_ For the living know that they shall die:* but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.* Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. _

But I am familiar with the beliefs of many other Christians on the matter.(The Baptist school I attended for years taught the immortal soul ideas) For me, there certainly is a distinction...

A _soul_ simply refers to a living individual. The _spirit_ is the breath of life from God. When God gives someone the breath of life, and at that point, the person becomes a living soul (a living person). *Genesis 2:27*  When a person dies, their breath of life (spirit) goes back to God and they are no longer a living soul. 

That is consistent with Ecclesiastes and other verses. I believe that God alone is immortal but He will reward us as Christians immortality at the Second Coming.


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## divya (Apr 10, 2009)

*MORTAL MAN*


*Every indication in the Old Testament is that, of and by himself, man is mortal creature, subject to decay and death; indeed, God told Adam after he had sinned,* *"for dust you are and to dust you will return" (Genesis 3:19). *

There is no reference here to a conscious, immortal soul going to heaven or hell or limbo when the body goes to the grave. 

*Rather, the indication is that when the body returns to the dust, the conscious man, the "living soul", ceases to exist. 

Of course, it was not long before Satan appeared on the scene contradicting God's warning about sin and its deadly consequences. Tempting Eve with the forbidden fruit he said,

    "You will not surely die...For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:4-5). 

In a sense, the modern concepts of the immortal soul and reincarnation convey the same idea - that man is inherently immortal - that he won't really die.*

Ezekiel stated just the opposite:

* "...the soul that sins, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4, 20). *

*So, whatever a soul is, in the Old Testament sense of the word, it can die.* Solomon, the wisest king of Israel, wrote about the fate of humans,

    "As it is with the good man, so with the sinner...The same destiny overtakes all...For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten" (Ecclesiastes 9:2-5). 

To be sure, Solomon, was writing from a human, temporal perspective - in a very melancholy mood at that; nevertheless, he corroborated the statements of Genesis that death is the cessation of conscious life. The Psalmist wrote that the dead do not praise God, that they

    "go down to silence" (Psalm 115:17; compare with Psalm 6:5; 1 46:4).

http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/do-we-have-an-immortal-soul.html


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Apr 10, 2009)

divya said:


> Let me clarify a bit. The article does not state that there is no difference between purgatory or hell in the RCC, but rather asserts that it is not Scriptural. Christians and Protestants believe in the second coming and the resurrection, but the issue is with the idea of soul/spirit. I do agree with the article that is incompatible though.
> 
> Take Care.




It's not that it isn't scriptural, it's that it is traditional and the scriptures indicate that christians (those christians, those Jews from the very first church) should follow the traditions passed onto them.  There is a Jewish precedent.  According to tradition that was passed on from the apostles (and began before them), purgatory or a place of purification was indicated.  Protestants operate by sola scriptura and the scriptures themselves tell us to :
http://www.catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp
Handing on the faith


Paul illustrated what tradition is: "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures. . . . Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed" (1 Cor. 15:3,11). The apostle praised those who followed Tradition: "I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:2).  

The first Christians "devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching" (Acts 2:42) long before there was a New Testament. From the very beginning, the fullness of Christian teaching was found in the Church as the living embodiment of Christ, not in a book. The teaching Church, with its oral, apostolic tradition, was authoritative. Paul himself gives a quotation from Jesus that was handed down orally to him: "It is more blessed to give than to receive" (Acts 20:35).  

This saying is not recorded in the Gospels and must have been passed on to Paul. Indeed, even the Gospels themselves are oral tradition which has been written down (Luke 1:1–4). What’s more, Paul does not quote Jesus only. He also quotes from early Christian hymns, as in Ephesians 5:14. These and other things have been given to Christians "through the Lord Jesus" (1 Thess. 4:2).  

Fundamentalists say Jesus condemned tradition. They note that Jesus said, "And why do you transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?" (Matt. 15:3). Paul warned, "See to it that no one makes a prey of you by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ" (Col. 2:8). But these verses merely condemn erroneous human traditions, not truths which were handed down orally and entrusted to the Church by the apostles. These latter truths are part of what is known as apostolic tradition, which is to be distinguished from human traditions or customs.  

People confuse that which is tradition of G-d as opposed to tradition of man.  The error is when man's traditions are confused as being G-d's.


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## divya (Apr 10, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> It's not that it isn't scriptural, it's that it is traditional and the scriptures indicate that christians (those christians, those Jews from the very first church) should follow the traditions passed onto them.  There is a Jewish precedent.  According to tradition that was passed on from the apostles (and began before them), purgatory or a place of purification was indicated.  Protestants operate by sola scriptura and the scriptures themselves tell us to :
> http://www.catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp
> Handing on the faith
> 
> ...



I agree that people confuse traditions of God with traditions of men. Where we disagree is that you may believe that purgatory is a Godly tradition, whereas myself and some others believe to the contrary. And yes, I believe in Sola Scriptura...


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Apr 10, 2009)

Since the roots of christianity is judaism, those apostles, Jews, would have had a Jewish understanding of the soul:

That there are 5 dimensions of the soul

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/3194/jewish/What-is-a-Soul.htm

Five Levels

But it is the human soul that is both the most complex and the most lofty of souls. Our sages have said: "She is called by five names: Nefesh (soul), Ruach (spirit), Neshamah (breath), Chayah (life) and Yechidah (singularity)."2 The Chassidic masters explain that the soul's five "names" actually describe five levels or dimensions of the soul. Nefesh is the soul as the engine of physical life. Ruach is the emotional self and "personality." Neshamah is the intellectual self. Chayah is the supra-rational self--the seat of will, desire, commitment and faith. Yechidah connotes the essence of the soul--its unity with its source, the singular essence of G-d. For the essence of the soul of man is "literally a part of G-d above"3--a piece of G-d in us, so to speak.

Two Souls

The Chassidic masters speak of two distinct souls that vitalize the human being: an "Animal Soul" and a "G-dly Soul." The Animal Soul is driven by the quest for self-preservation and self-enhancement; in this, it resembles the soul and self of all other creations. But we also possess a G-dly Soul"--a soul driven by the desire to reconnect with its Source. Our lives are the story of the contest and interplay between these two souls, as we struggle to balance and reconcile our physical needs and desires with our spiritual aspirations, our self-focused drives with our altruistic yearnings. These two souls, however, do not reside "side-by-side" within the body; rather, the G-dly Soul is enclothed within the Animal Soul--just as the Animal Soul is enclothed within the body. This means that the Animal Soul, too, is vitalized by the "part of G-d above" at its core. Ostensibly, the two souls are in conflict with each other, but in essence they are compatible.4


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## divya (Apr 10, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Since the roots of christianity is judaism, those apostles, Jews, would have had a Jewish understanding of the soul:
> 
> That there are 5 dimensions of the soul
> 
> ...



Interesting, even though I don't agree based on the Scriptures. So what do Jews believe about an afterlife? Or hell?


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Apr 10, 2009)

divya said:


> I agree that people confuse traditions of God with traditions of men. Where we disagree is that you may believe that purgatory is a Godly tradition, whereas myself and some others believe to the contrary. And yes, I believe in Sola Scriptura...



Supported by evidence.  Even in the kaddish and mourner's kaddish, one prays to benefit not only the living, but the soul that has passed on.  And if we'd only realize that this is what truly separates christian sects (IMHO), tradition vs. sola scriptura.   It's very important to understand in these types of discussions.

http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-15.htm

The precedent was always Judaism.  For everything.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Apr 10, 2009)

divya said:


> Interesting, even though I don't agree based on their Scripture. So what do Jews believe about an afterlife? Or hell?



In traditional or orthodox Judaism, yes, there is good and bad, a happy life or a hellish one afterwards, according to one's deeds.  The soul faces judgement.  There will be a resurrection.


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## divya (Apr 10, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Supported by evidence.  Even in the kaddish and mourner's kaddish, one prays to benefit not only the living, but the soul that has passed on.  And if we'd only realize that this is what truly separates christian sects (IMHO), tradition vs. sola scriptura.   It's very important to understand in these types of discussions.
> 
> http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-15.htm
> 
> The precedent was always Judaism.  For everything.



That's an interesting version and interpretation. I generally only use KJV though.

2 Thess 2:2 - _That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand._ 

The translation for _word_ in Greek isn't tradition so I personally don't hold that the verse deals with tradition. 

However I do agree...the tradition of immortal soul belief is something that many hold to - many Christians and non-Christians.


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## divya (Apr 10, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> In traditional or orthodox Judaism, yes, there is good and bad, a happy life or a hellish one afterwards, according to one's deeds.  The soul faces judgement.  There will be a resurrection.



What does the Zohar say about it? Curious.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Apr 10, 2009)

divya said:


> What does the Zohar say about it? Curious.



I don't know much about Zohar but it is discussed in Mishna and Gemara of the Talmud.  I don't have a teacher.  I'd be careful even reading this online.


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## divya (Apr 10, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> I don't know much about Zohar but it is discussed in Mishna and Gemara of the Talmud.  I don't have a teacher.  I'd be careful even reading this online.



Oh ok...thanks though.


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## hurricane (Apr 11, 2009)

The talmud, mishna, and all that other stuff are commenteries. Not God's word but the word of man who try to explain the scriptures. When Jesus was on the cross, there where two men hanging next to him. One said, if you are the Christ save yourself and us. Then the other man rebuked him saying, do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation. And we indeed justly, for we recieve the due reward of our deed; but this Man has done nothing wrong. Then he said to Jesus, Lord remember me when You come into Your kingdom. And Jesus said to him, Assuredly I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise." Luke 23:39-43

Seems like life after physical death

After Jesus gave up the spirit

Mathew 27:52-53

and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised: and comming out of the graves after his resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.


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## hurricane (Apr 11, 2009)

I believe the Talmud, Zohra, Mishna, Germatia have to do with the Kabbala, which is Jewish mysticism. These are false doctrines. Numerology, majic, and such.

Only the Law and the Prophets, which is the Torah ( Word of God ) should be applied to your life as well as the New Testament. The New Testament refers to the Law and the Prophets. The only new commandment that Jesus gave us was to love our neighbor as ourselves.


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## divya (Apr 11, 2009)

hurricane said:


> The talmud, mishna, and all that other stuff are commenteries. Not God's word but the word of man who try to explain the scriptures. When Jesus was on the cross, there where two men hanging next to him. One said, if you are the Christ save yourself and us. Then the other man rebuked him saying, do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation. And we indeed justly, for we recieve the due reward of our deed; but this Man has done nothing wrong. Then he said to Jesus, Lord remember me when You come into Your kingdom. And Jesus said to him, Assuredly I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise." Luke 23:39-43
> 
> Seems like life after physical death
> 
> ...



This is actually a great example of what happens when you die! 

*Mathew 27:50-53* -_ Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,* And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.* _

When we die, we go to the grave just like these people.  It will take Jesus to raise the saints that sleep from the grave and take us to heaven with Him. 

*1 Thess 4:16 -17* - _For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:*and the dead in Christ shall rise first:Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them* in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord._

Regarding the words that Jesus stated to the man on the cross...if taken literally, that that disputes that fact that Jesus was buried and then rose again on the 3rd day. Only later did Jesus ascended to heaven. That day the man was granted the gift of salvation.


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## hurricane (Apr 11, 2009)

Thanks. Still confused but thanks.


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## divya (Apr 11, 2009)

hurricane said:


> Thanks. Still confused but thanks.



It's a difficult topic, and there are conflicting interpretations out there. I pray that the subject becomes clear for you.


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## Crown (Apr 11, 2009)

divya said:


> This is actually a great example of what happens when you die!
> 
> *Mathew 27:50-53* -_ Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,* And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.* _
> 
> ...



You explain it very well.
God bless you!


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## Nice & Wavy (Apr 13, 2009)

I found this to be good for understanding the whole person:

*Andrew Womack*
John 3:6 says,
_“That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”_

Jesus meant that there’s no direct connection between the spirit and flesh. They are interrelated, but spirit is spirit and flesh is flesh. *You simply cannot contact your spirit through your five senses or through your mind, will, or emotions. *Therein lies one of the great problems of the Christian life! 

If you don’t understand that spiritual reality can’t be felt, then you’ll be confused when God’s Word declares that you have the same power that raised Jesus from the dead living in you (Eph. 1:19-20). If you think truth can be discerned through your natural senses, you’ll be baffled when the Bible says you’re a brand-new creature who can do the same miraculous works that Jesus did (2 Cor. 5:17 and John 14:12).

The apparent disparity between your natural experiences and God’s Word will cause you to throw up your hands in frustration and conclude, _“It must not be true.”_ It’s understanding spirit, soul, and body that unlocks the spirit realm so you can experience who you are and what you have in Christ.

In the natural, the spirit realm can’t be seen or felt; *the only way to accurately perceive spiritual truth is through the Bible. Simply take God’s Word and believe it*!

Jesus said in John 6:63,
_“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”_

God’s Word reveals spiritual reality. If you want to know what your spirit is like, you must find out from the Word, not rely on emotions or other perceptions. God’s Word is spirit and life! When you look at your face in a mirror, you aren’t really seeing yourself; you’re viewing a reflection. Even though it’s only a reflection, you have learned to trust it and act on what you see. God’s Word is just like that mirror: it reflects perfectly who you are in the spirit.

_“For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therin, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed” _(James 1:23-25).

*You must look into God’s mirror and trust the spiritual reality you see! *It reflects your new born-again spirit, your innermost part. However, it does not reflect your soul.

Although full payment has been made for your glorified body through the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, you still have a corrupted body. One day it will be redeemed and changed into an incorruptible one. For now, you still must live in the same body you had before you were saved. 

*Your soul wasn’t saved either.* You may have the same thoughts and emotions you had before you were saved. And because of that, some people seriously doubt whether or not they are saved. They don’t understand that the change took place in their spirits. Typically, your body and soul are both impacted by what happens at salvation, but that’s not where the complete change took place.

The good news is you can change your mind. In fact, we are commanded to do so. 

Romans 12:2 says,
_“And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”_

Your soul can be transformed to the degree that you renew your mind, change your attitudes, and conform to the Word of God. This should happen, and it’s in the process of happening, but it didn’t happen automatically when you were saved.

In your soul, old things did not pass away, and all things haven’t yet become new. For that reason, you could actually die from sickness or disease even though you have all of the power that raised Jesus from the dead residing untapped within your spirit. It’s like dying of thirst while leaning against a well full of life-giving water. 

Think of your soul like the valve on a faucet. It controls the rate and volume of the flow of the spirit into your body. If your mind is renewed and in agreement with the Word, the valve is wide open. But if it is in agreement with what your body is feeling or your emotions are experiencing, the valve is either closed or in the process of closing. 
Your soul has the power to keep every drop of life-giving power from ever reaching your physical body or flooding it with the same power that raised Jesus from the dead. If the valve is open, you’ll experience healing, deliverance, anointing, victory, power, joy, prosperity, and more. So, keep it open!

This revelation of the relationship of the spirit, soul, and body has transformed my life. *When* *I realized that God had already given me everything I needed and it’s all contained in my spirit, it set me free.* All I needed to do was release it. That simple understanding changes everything.

The Christian life isn’t a process of “getting from God”; it’s a process of renewing the mind and learning to release what you’ve already received. 
If you don’t understand that you have already received all that you will ever need (in your spirit) at salvation, there will always be an element of doubt. You may know it’s possible or even promised in the Word, but you’ll be trying to perceive it in the mental, emotional, or physical realm. That’s a formula for failure. 

That erroneous concept can also result in a performance-based relationship with God: “If I’m good enough, if I read the Bible enough, if I pay my tithe,” and on and on it goes in an attempt to motivate God to give you what you need. It’s the misconception that God hasn’t already given you everything and that somehow you have to make yourself worthy enough to get it.

You’re already worthy because of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice. He paid the price for everything you will ever need. In fact, you’ve already got it. It’s just a matter of understanding the relationship of the spirit to the soul and body. 

*Understanding spirit, soul, and body is critically important to every believer.* It’s like the key that opens the treasure chest of God’s grace. It could be a matter of life and death, and it’s the foundation to understanding the rest of Scripture.


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