# Racism Dutch Style



## ambergirl (Dec 8, 2012)

Can't believe this is still happening. 


*Black Pete exposes the Netherlands' problem with race*







                     A woman's face is painted to become a Black Pete in Soest in the 

Wednesday 5 December 2012             *White people dressing up as fools with black faces is not the harmless Christmas fun that the Dutch make it out to be*


                      I once heard a joke that went something like  this: when the world is coming to an end, move to the Netherlands  because everything happens there 50 years later. A bit harsh, I thought,  after all, the Dutch are a relatively progressive people with much to  recommend them: from the high level of volunteering to absence of  hysteria around subjects such as cannabis, prostitution, same-sex  marriage and euthanasia. On the matter of race, though, you do wonder.  Particularly around this time of year, by way of a character called  "Zwarte Piet" (Black Pete).


In America you have Santa Claus, in  the UK he's Father Christmas, and in the Netherlands he's called  Sinterklaas. Unlike the other Santas, though, the Dutch Sinterklaas  arrives with his slave/servant called Zwarte Piet. The slave-servant  comes dressed like a renaissance minstrel: black face, painted red lips,  afro wig. The arrival is a huge event: Sinterklaas and the Zwarte  Pieten make a grand entrance, and the whole parade is broadcast on  public television. Sinterklaas sits tall on a white horse while his  black servants share out candy to the kids on the sidelines, and  families from all over the country turn up to watch. Or course, there  are always several Black Petes, typically played by white people, all in  blackface, with red painted lips and afro wigs. 



The  transformation, however, is not complete with the outfit and  greasepaint. The character must speak poor Dutch with a stupid accent,  and must act childlike and mischievous when performing. And from  mid-November, when Sintaklass and his servants arrive, you can see  Zwarte Pieten all over, on television programmes and commercials and on  the streets, acting the fool.


At schools across the country,  children sing songs referring to the skin tone and character of the  black servant "...even if I'm black as coal I mean well…", "Saint  Nicolas, enter with your black servant", etc, and there are other old  songs about Zwarte Piet in which he's made out to be a little bit  stupid, a little bit clumsy, more akin to a child than an adult, the  same generalisations previously applied to black people, but which can  no longer be made explicitly.


What  on is going on with the Dutch? How can such an abhorrent anachronism  exist in a seemingly modern and progressive country? *As one writer put  it, "millions of black people were killed or enslaved by white people  over four centuries, and millions more continue to suffer discrimination  all over Europe and in the States, so this Zwarte Piet character is  about as funny as wearing a swastika." *



As I hinted in the first  paragraph, Zwarte Piet is not the only sign that the Dutch have a  problem with race. Dutch society also has more subtle ways of reminding  black people of their place and keeping them there. If you spend any  time in the Netherlands, you will soon hear the words "allochtoon" used  in polite conversation.


*People of "non-western" descent are  labeled "allochtoon", not only by the white society, but also by law.  "Allochtoon" is based on a Greek word, "allokhthon", and means "found in  a place other than where they were formed". But no non-Dutch white  person living in the Netherlands is referred to as allochtoon, only  non-white people, Dutch and otherwise.*

These allochtonen, the  "outsiders" (many of whom were born and raised in the Netherlands) are  the ones typically accused by the right-wing politician Geert Wilders  and others of exploiting the country's resources and social services  while not integrating properly into Dutch society. The word allochtoon  is thus used as a continuous reminder to people of colour in the  Netherlands that white-Dutch people simply do not see them as an equal  member of the society, let alone as Dutch, no matter multi-cultural said  society might appear on the surface. 



*Yet a fifth of the Dutch  population consists of people of colour. This includes people from  former colonies such as Indonesia and Surinam, but also people whose  roots lay in Morocco and Turkey. Since the 1980s, there has also been a  steady stream of migrants from sub-Saharan Africa to the Netherlands.  Some of them are now grandparents, with kids and grandkids who consider  the Netherlands home (or try to, at any rate). All of these people are  "allochtoon".*


In this context, one can start to understand why the  unemployment rate of non-white Dutch people (at 15% in the first  quarter of 2012) is two-and-a-half times higher than the Dutch average.  One also starts to understand why black and white Dutch people see  nothing wrong with a film like Alleen Maar Nette Mensen  ("Only Decent People") or why, in December last year, the editor of  Dutch fashion magazine Jackie thought it was okay to give its readers  fashion advice that they could dress like a "***** *****", associating the style with Rihanna. Rihanna, of course, didn't hold back in her response  (she's not black Dutch, so one imagines she didn't know her place), and  the editor was forced to resign. But here's the thing, many white and  black people felt the editor would have kept her job, if the controversy  hadn't been picked up outside the Netherlands. Those who objected were  labelled "too sensitive". When the editor was first confronted about the  racist slur, her response was that it was just a "bad joke". 



Why do people keep defending Zwarte Piet? Is it that they really can't see that it is racist or that they don't want to see? One blogger (Toby Sterling)  writes that actually, t*he people who defend Zwarte Piet know all to  well that he is a racist caricature, but that they are experiencing the  psychological phenomenon known as "cognitive dissonance": the brain  filters out new information (Zwarte Piet is a racist caricature) that  conflicts with what one already believes (I love Zwarte Piet and I am  not a racist).*

You don't have to have a degree in psychology or  sociology to work out that the figure of Zwarte Piet, and the use of  words like "neger" and "allochtoon" ensure the continued internalisation  of ideas of superiority of white Dutch people, and of inferiority and  marginalisation of black Dutch people. Nor do you need it to understand  the associate power of symbols like Zwarte Piet. You can keep a symbolic  boot on someone's neck, and it can be just as effective as doing so  physically, more so, even.


The debate is also, as Lulu Wang  writes, a discussion about citizenship and identity. "And because this  discussion does not take place behind closed doors between politicians  and intellectuals only, but in schools, between colleagues,  family-members and friends, it offers us a chance to challenge old  conceptions of self and other at many different levels. However, this  annual debate is not sufficient to change things, but it can lead to  more activism, a critical outlook and recognition of those situations  where the same strategies of marginalisation are being used. The Black  servant and his White master can not be isolated from the social  context, Dutch society, in which they exist."


In researching this  piece, and from discussing it with Dutch people, black and white, I  discovered that this debate has been going on for years, every year.  Initially, I thought that was cause for concern. Perhaps the defenders  of the "tradition" believe so long as they don't listen to anything the  black Dutch people say, the debate will never get beyond talk, and the  anti-Piet campaigners will give up from exhaustion. But I was reassured  that the numbers (black and white) of those against this "tradition" are  indeed growing.


Playwright Mark Walraven, for instance, says he  used to be one of the many white men who would paint their faces black  each year to the delight of children. "I stopped after I began working  with black people," he said. "Many people are offended by this symbol."


Four  years ago, Walraven put on a play In the Shadow of the Saint about the  debate over Black Pete at Amsterdam's Krater Theater. One of messages of  his play is that you can still have Sinterklaas without Black Pete.  "Many countries have abolished these kinds of things but in Holland they  still exist," Walraven said. "Nevertheless, most Dutch don't consider  themselves to be racist and feel they are being personally attacked when  you criticise Black Pete," he said.


"The majority here in Holland  refuse to talk about Black Pete. They are afraid that the people who  discuss it want to take away Sinterklaas as a phenomenon."


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## MyInvisibleChyrsalis (Dec 8, 2012)

America taught them well.


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## ambergirl (Dec 8, 2012)

^^^ I don't know, the Dutch are some OG racists as early as the 17th century and the Afrikaners in South Africa were originally Dutch. 

Interesting though how these racists symbols are so similar all over the globe.


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## Boujoichic (Dec 8, 2012)

I have heard of Black Pete previously actually in a thread here on lhcf and I think its despicable. I still can't understand why some black people try to find excuses to justify blackface smh. 

I am a part of another community based around Japanese fashion there are members of all races from all over the world. I myself have witnessed racism from the members from the Netherlands (not exclusively) some was cloaked as jokes between friends and some outright. They can rest assured that I won't be visiting their country.


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## yardyspice (Dec 8, 2012)

I had a professor who claimed that Europe can only claim they are not racist when they don't have significant non-whites in their midst. The minute, however, their minority population increases, the racism comes out. (See France for example)


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## Whimsy (Dec 8, 2012)

I don't know why I read all that. It just made me angry this morning. ::sigh::


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## ambergirl (Dec 8, 2012)

^^^ That's saying something because the Japanese are no strangers to racism and black face nonsense. 

I spent a little over a week there and had a good time, that's why the article was a bit of a surprise. But I was mostly in the cities.

However the prostitution industry consists of immigrant women and mostly women of color from Asia and Africa.  That's why I give the side eye to this notion of the sex trade being more civilized in the Netherlands because it's legal and in the open....it's basically legally exploiting women of color.


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## ambergirl (Dec 8, 2012)

yardyspice said:


> I had a professor who claimed that Europe can claim they are not racist because they don't have significant non-whites in their midst. The minute, however, their minority population increases, the racism comes out. (See France for example)



Yes indeed....it's happening all over the continent now as more and more immigrants from the Middle East and Africa are emigrating to Europe. 

If they don't start addressing these issues now, the racism there will be way worse then here. The right wing is openly racist and gaining ground all over the continent.


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## nysister (Dec 8, 2012)

It's amazing how people will do anything to justify and hang onto racist traditions. 

I knew of Zwarte Piet, but this article was very informative. Thanks OP.


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## fairyhairy (Dec 8, 2012)

sickening, yet people will still just shrug their shoulders


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## NOEChic (Dec 8, 2012)

It's Okay Dutch?  I wonder what she thinks.


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## metro_qt (Dec 8, 2012)

Lol!!!! I love this thread! My mom actually lives in holland and has done so for 5 years.
She despises this tradition. The words you hear coming out her mouth this season because of Zwarte Piet... Unbelievable.

Yes, racism is alive and well.


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## ambergirl (Dec 8, 2012)

metro_qt said:


> Lol!!!! I love this thread! My mom actually lives in holland and has done so for 5 years.
> She despises this tradition. The words you hear coming out her mouth this season because of Zwarte Piet... Unbelievable.
> 
> Yes, racism is alive and well.



How does she feel she's treated overall? Does the racism permeate every day life?


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## SimplyLive (Dec 8, 2012)

What is with this obsession with "blackface" around the world?


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## Kiowa (Dec 8, 2012)

I worked for an IT company in Rotterdam for about a year, the MD of the company would make these stupid racist jokes whenever he visited, and watch for my reaction..I did see a lot of IR couples, but for the most part, seems like Dutch came into little contact with non-white Dutch/and or immigrants..


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## yardyspice (Dec 8, 2012)

Kiowa said:


> I worked for an IT company in Rotterdam for about a year, the MD of the company would make these stupid racist jokes whenever he visited, and watch for my reaction..I did see a lot of IR couples, but for the most part, seems like Dutch came into little contact with non-white Dutch/and or immigrants..



So he was doing it to get under your skin Kiowa?


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## afrofaithful (Dec 8, 2012)

OMG! I was just in the Netherlands last weekend and saw one of these guys running around. I was wondering why...it really was awkward.


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## hannan (Dec 8, 2012)

NOEChic said:


> It's Okay Dutch?  I wonder what she thinks.



She's Danish. Same mentality over there too probably.


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## yardyspice (Dec 8, 2012)

^^If I remember right, she said they didn't really have a racism problem.


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## NOEChic (Dec 8, 2012)

hannan said:


> She's Danish. Same mentality over there too probably.



Ok lol. I got my D's mixed up lol.


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## Ogoma (Dec 8, 2012)

yardyspice said:


> ^^If I remember right, she said they didn't really have a racism problem.



Ermm what? 



> Most racist country in Europe
> 
> According to many foreigners Denmark is now the most racist country in Europe. For me it is without comparison the worst racism since it is the only one I am responsible for. Institutionalized racism might be worse in America, but since the Danes are more outspoken in their views and have not learned the political correctness of Americans, individual racism is far more extreme over here. Indeed, when I recently lived in the Ku Klux Klan head quarter in America it struck me after weeks of interviewing the Klan members that they had less hate in their hearts than what I find in my fellow Danes right now.
> 
> http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/denmark/index-overview-us.htm





> I am an Asian-American who lived in Denmark for two and a half years.  The first time I heard people saying (in reaction to learning that I  can speak Chinese): »ching chong, ching chong, etc…« to my face, I  thought that I had been transported to the Twilight Zone or some distant  elementary school playground.
> 
> 
> Sadly, I was amongst so-called educated Danes. The excuse for the  behaviour was to chalk it up to Danish humour and not racism. I chalked  it up to ignorance. Never mind how disrespectful and demeaning it was to  me. Danish humour, REALLY? I wasn’t laughing and neither was my  husband. I was so stunned the first couple of times that it happened and  vowed that the next time it inevitably did, I would say something.
> ...





> An academic paper (published) from the University of St Andrews claiming that Denmark is the most racist country in Denmark.
> 
> Shocking, but not surprising.
> 
> ...


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## FlowerHair (Dec 8, 2012)

yardyspice said:


> ^^If I remember right, she said they didn't really have a racism problem.



They do... I don't even go to Denmark anymore. Who wants to spend vacation among racists? The same crap is developing here in Sweden as well... 

My plan to move to Barbados is drawing nearer!


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## tocktick (Dec 8, 2012)

yardyspice said:


> ^^If I remember right, she said they didn't really have a racism problem.



I think I can recall her having said differently but this was quite a while ago.

On another note, being on this board as a person living in Europe can be a little curious at times. I like living where I am but I do get the sense that _sometimes_ Europe can be unduly romanticised.


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## afrofaithful (Dec 8, 2012)

FlowerHair said:


> They do... I don't even go to Denmark anymore. Who wants to spend vacation among racists? The same crap is developing here in Sweden as well...
> 
> My plan to move to Barbados is drawing nearer!



What has been your experience in Sweden?


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## DirtyJerzeyGirly (Dec 8, 2012)

tocktick said:


> *I think I can recall her having said differently but this was quite a while ago.*
> 
> On another note, being on this board as a person living in Europe can be a little curious at times. I like living where I am but I do get the sense that _sometimes_ Europe can be unduly romanticised.



Yeah i remember her saying that as well; it was actually one of the reasons why she wanted to live in London.


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## FlowerHair (Dec 8, 2012)

afrofaithful said:


> What has been your experience in Sweden?



I haven't personally experienced blatant racism, but we do have one racist party that is now in parliament. I think people here are extremely passive aggressive so they won't come out and say anything to your face, but it's definitely there under the surface.


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## Okay (Dec 8, 2012)

Im here 

I wanted to live in London because I needed to be around more black people. I was sooo insecure and going to London did me good. Im fine now and even though I miss London, Im actually happy here


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## Okay (Dec 8, 2012)

FlowerHair said:


> I haven't personally experienced blatant racism, but we do have one racist party that is now in parliament. I think people here are extremely passive aggressive so they won't come out and say anything to your face, but it's definitely there under the surface.



Exactly my experience 


Anyway, the racism here is targeted towards muslims and arabs NOT blacks. Im not saying its any "better"..  Im not saying there isnt racism, cause there is, but I think im really privileged that I was born here... 

Alot of danes will complain about foreigners coming over and not working just coming over to get a piece of the pie.. and that results in the tax money going for the wrong things. People who come out and say it are the ones who will be called racists too. Actuallly I dont blame them for getting annoyed at thinks like that. It annoys me too.


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## yardyspice (Dec 8, 2012)

Ogoma said:


> Ermm what?



I didn't say there was none, just that she would say there was none more than likely.


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## SimplyLive (Dec 8, 2012)

Kiowa said:


> I worked for an IT company in Rotterdam for about a year, the MD of the company would make these stupid racist jokes whenever he visited, and watch for my reaction..I did see a lot of IR couples, but for the most part, seems like Dutch came into little contact with non-white Dutch/and or immigrants..



How would you react? I hope you didn't give the person ammo.


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## Okay (Dec 8, 2012)

yardyspice said:


> I didn't say there was none, just that she would say there was none more than likely.




"she would say" when Im in the thread lol erplexed. No matter what I say you think you know better anyways so...


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## Okay (Dec 8, 2012)

And there is racism everywhere so I would never utter such nonsense.


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## Okay (Dec 8, 2012)

Ogoma said:


> Ermm what?



So these things could never possible happen in Canada? 

I googled Canada+racism and alot of stuff came up 

Again, there is racim everywhere so....


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## Ogoma (Dec 8, 2012)

Okay said:


> So these things could never possible happen in Canada?
> 
> I googled Canada+racism and alot of stuff came up
> 
> Again, there is racim everywhere so....



Never said there was no racism in Canada or no one has attributed such comments to me. I am almost certain you would not find a 'Canada is the most racist country in North America says study' headline either. But either way, I would not care. I am not into denying or minimizing racism anywhere and regardless of who it is directed at.


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## nysister (Dec 8, 2012)

FlowerHair said:


> I haven't personally experienced blatant racism, but we do have one racist party that is now in parliament. I think people here are extremely passive aggressive so they won't come out and say anything to your face, but it's definitely there under the surface.



FlowerHair

Do you feel a particular tension/hostility growing?

If you don't mind my asking, why Barbados?


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## AnjelLuvs (Dec 8, 2012)

*Okay, but Yardspice, is just replying to someone, before you even entered thread... Maybe YOU explain what YOU meant then, simple as that, Lol... erplexed*


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## Krullete (Dec 8, 2012)

Hey, nysister - thanks for the tag... I am here and following along already.  I broke off to read a bit about the film mentioned upthread - _Only decent people_. SMH at the familiar denial of ingrained, _first_-nature racism. They're too comfortable with it.

Also, as Okay stated _it is everywhere (here, too!)._


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## VivaMac (Dec 8, 2012)

Denmark does have institutionalized racism, their immigration rules support and actively carry out racism. It's not very clear if you read the rules on their website, but when these are put into practice it becomes glaring. They have a rule that states a child under 18 must be capable of integrating into Denmark's society, fair enough, but then they deport children who speak the  language and go to school in Denmark, the problem if you deport the child more than likely the parents will follow.  This is just a clever way to get rid of foreign workers once they have served their purpose and are no longer needed.

one example of many:

Increased police force being used to target illegal child residents, says immigration lawyer

*The Immigration Service determined that eight-year-old Ripa is not capable of integrating into Danish society (Photo: Jennifer Buley)
Small children being denied residency and separated from their parents; police knocking on families’ doors to check children’s passports. These are increasingly common events in Denmark, say experts.
*
Earlier this week, The Copenhagen Post reported the story of a little girl from Bangladesh named Ripa Ahmed who is being threatened with deportation.

The Immigration Service ruled that Ripa is incapable of integrating successfully in Denmark – even though she is fluent in Danish after just two years in Denmark, is thriving in her Danish school, and is just 7 years and 11 months old.

Two weeks ago, police showed up at Ripa’s family’s apartment in Vanløse, asking to see her passport and enforce the deportation ruling.

“It was very unfair. Even in Bangladesh – a third-world country – the police do not come after little children. It is really shameful,” Ripa’s father, Jamal Ahmed, told The Copenhagen Post.

*Ahmed has lived in Denmark since 1998 and has worked for the past eight years as a dishwasher at Copenhagen’s Hilton Hotel. He brought his wife, Rumana, and daughter, Ripa, to Denmark in 2009. The Immigration Service approved Rumana’s residency application, but rejected Ripa’s on the grounds that she was too old to integrate successfully*.

“The Danish people are really kind and nice people – I know, because I have lived here for twelve years. But the immigration rules are really...” Ahmed trailed off, shaking his head.

Immigration lawyer Åge Kramp is working with the Ahmeds to convince the Immigration Service to overturn Ripa’s deportation order.

Kramp told The Copenhagen Post that in the past few years it has become more and more common for police to show up at the door in Denmark to enforce deportations – even deportations of little children.

“It is now a much, much more normal procedure,” Kramp said.

Kramp attributed the change to increases in the police force – an initiative pushed by the Danish People’s Party (DF) with the specific objective of enforcing deportations.

Since 2004, under the Liberal-Conservative and DF-supported government, some 795 children were denied residency in Denmark. Now that the government has changed hands from the right to the left, the centre-left Social Liberals and far-left Red-Green Alliance are both calling for major reforms.

“It ought to be incomprehensible to every single person that a seven-year-old child does not have the potential to integrate,” Red-Green Alliance leader Johanne Schmidt-Nielsen told Berlingske newspaper in connection with the case of another child, a seven-year-old Chinese girl, who was denied residency.

“We cannot allow this policy to continue. There must be limits to the inhumanity, and that limit should have been set a long time ago. Our job now is to clean up this mess of rules that is splitting families apart and punishing children,” she added.

The Red-Green Alliance has demanded that all cases of children denied family reunification during the Liberal-Conservative government’s ten year reign be reopened and reviewed


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## Okay (Dec 8, 2012)

^^ Trust me MANY danes are tired of those strict immagration rules too. Alot of them arent fair at all..


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## Kurlee (Dec 8, 2012)

I saw this in the paper this morning and the headline was kind of apologetic.   It's crazy how these things keep happening all over the world, in the same ways and with the same symbols and oppressions. What do we do? In the last thread, OP said she had given up on the idea of some kind of pan-African movement across the diasporas.  I am beginning to feel more and more that this is needed.


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## nysister (Dec 8, 2012)

Kurlee said:


> I saw this in the paper this morning and the headline was kind of apologetic.   It's crazy how these things keep happening all over the world, in the same ways and with the same symbols and oppressions. What do we do? In the last thread, OP said she had given up on the idea of some kind of *pan-African movement across the diasporas.* *I am beginning to feel more and more that this is needed.*



 The more fractured we are, the easier it is for others to run over us, and for some reason many people seem to be keen on trying to run over us.


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## Honey Bee (Dec 8, 2012)

nysister said:


> The more fractured we are, the easier it is for others to run over us, and *for some reason many people seem to be keen on trying to run over us.*


nysister, and 'we' seem just as keen on fracturing _ourselves_.


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## nysister (Dec 9, 2012)

Honey Bee said:


> nysister , and 'we' seem just as keen on fracturing _ourselves_.



I think the best way to help with that is with sharing experiences, that's something that we're good at here on LHCF even if we are sometimes very passionate about it. I've learned so much about being Black in different parts of the world, it's been eye opening to me.


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## ambergirl (Dec 9, 2012)

Kurlee said:


> I saw this in the paper this morning and the headline was kind of apologetic.   It's crazy how these things keep happening all over the world, in the same ways and with the same symbols and oppressions. What do we do? In the last thread, OP said she had given up on the idea of some kind of pan-African movement across the diasporas.  I am beginning to feel more and more that this is needed.



Still doubt it. To me there is just too much divisiveness and diversity within the diaspora as a whole and too much variation in laws and culture for any kind of movement. Maybe through the EU but i doubt that too. More likely movements will be national and with luck strategies and tactics will be shared.


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## Kurlee (Dec 9, 2012)

Honey Bee said:


> nysister, and 'we' seem just as keen on fracturing _ourselves_.


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## Kurlee (Dec 9, 2012)

ambergirl said:


> *Still doubt it. *To me there is just too much divisiveness and diversity within the diaspora as a whole and too much variation in laws and culture for any kind of movement. Maybe through the EU but i doubt that too. More likely movements will be national and with luck strategies and tactics will be shared.



me too, but i so see why we need one.  no matter where "we" go around the world, it's the same ish, with no advocacy, recourse . . .  we barely even react anymore. Frustrating.erplexed


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## ambergirl (Dec 9, 2012)

Kurlee said:


> me too, but i so see why we need one.  no matter where "we" go around the world, it's the same ish, with no advocacy, recourse . . .  we barely even react anymore. Frustrating.erplexed



Even though the world largely looks at us as a group of African descended people we don't see ourselves as a common people. We share a skin color (for the most part) but have few cultural similarities. 

On other hand the Jewish diaspora is comprised of different ethnic groups (Sephardic, Ashkenazie, Ethiopian, Iranian, etc) but share a religious tradition. It's amazing to think that Jews all over the world share the same holidays, same rituals, worship the same deity, from the same ancient texts. Yes there are conflicts within their diaspora as well but they do have that common bond that gives them an avenue for coming together. Not to mention the Holocaust and how it compelled them to think about their survival as an religious group. 

We'll never have a pan-African culture so our only hope for coming together would be if we truly believed that when some of us are persecuted, all of us are harmed. And as of yet doesn't seem like that mindset is emerging.


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## Honey Bee (Dec 9, 2012)

And this is what's so sad about it.  All of us in the Diaspora already know how to do this.  We did it before, when they first brought us over here.  We didn't know each other, spoke different languages, might have been at war with each other back at home- who knows? But we got here, or to whichever Caribbean island, and became a cohesive cultural group based on nothing but oppression.  

People say, oh, but we're not oppressed anymore.  Yes the heck we are, as this article and the one about the school in London, and the freaking Tea Party prove. Now, the question is, what are we gonna do about it?


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## yardyspice (Dec 9, 2012)

Honey Bee said:


> Now, the question is, what are we gonna do about it?



Nothing.........


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## FlowerHair (Dec 9, 2012)

nysister said:


> FlowerHair
> 
> Do you feel a particular tension/hostility growing?
> 
> If you don't mind my asking, why Barbados?



Yes I do feel a tension growing  and I'm keeping my eyes open. Nazi Germany was only 60 years ago, people don't change that quickly...

Barbados or somewhere else in the Caribbean lol. It's just my dream destination. 
nysister


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## fairyhairy (Dec 9, 2012)

yardyspice said:


> Nothing.........



people are happy with the status quo as long as it doesn't affect them directly, what many don't realise is if it hurts you it hurts me, maybe not now but eventually


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## Kurlee (Dec 9, 2012)

FlowerHair said:


> Yes I do feel a tension growing  and I'm keeping my eyes open. Nazi Germany was only 60 years ago, people don't change that quickly...
> 
> Barbados or somewhere else in the Caribbean lol. It's just my dream destination.
> nysister


 Curacao is beautiful too as is St. Vincent & the Grenadines (especially the Grenadines), Trinidad, Grenada and the Bahamas! Check them out.


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## ajoyfuljoy (Dec 9, 2012)

I went to a mostly Dutch undergrad so this makes a lot of sense to me.


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## nysister (Dec 9, 2012)

FlowerHair said:


> Yes I do feel a tension growing  and I'm keeping my eyes open. *Nazi Germany was only 60 years ago, people don't change that quickly...*
> 
> Barbados or somewhere else in the Caribbean lol. It's just my dream destination.



I totally agree. Ingrained traits are hard to break when one is taught that they're okay even if they aren't.

All the best on your move plans!


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## Laela (Dec 10, 2019)




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## Laela (Dec 10, 2019)

I'm sure ya'll can Googles it yourself... lol but thought I'd drop the Wiki history here:
The Dutch want to know why folks messing with their tradition, they aren't racists.. looks like, along the way, it morphed into a racist concept.  And they're fine with that. Soooooo??





> *History[edit]*
> *Origins[edit]*
> According to Hélène Adeline Guerber and other historians,[3][4] the origin of Sinterklaas and his helpers have been linked by some to the Wild Hunt of Odin. While riding the white horse Sleipnir, he flew through the air as the leader of the Wild Hunt. He was always accompanied by two black ravens, Huginn and Muninn.[5] These helpers would listen, just like Zwarte Piet, at the chimneys of the homes they visited to tell Odin about the good and bad behavior of the mortals below.[6][7]
> 
> ...


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## Laela (Dec 10, 2019)

I didn't do a search on here before posting on this topic.. but look at that... 7 years later... SMH


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## itsallaboutattitude (Dec 15, 2019)

Laela said:


> I didn't do a search on here before posting on this topic.. but look at that... 7 years later... SMH


Thank you for bumping with the update.


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## Laela (Dec 16, 2019)

You're very welcome, @itsallaboutattitude !


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## Everything Zen (Aug 5, 2022)

Saw this thread and didn’t know if there were any other updates. I just found out my company is sending me to our office in Utrecht at the end of September- first time overseas. I’m planning on making a nice long vacation of it because God knows I need one.


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## ambergirl (Aug 6, 2022)

...so apparently after George Floyd the Dutch sort of started to get how offensive this character is....but mostly because they are tired of being accused of being racist...really they still adore Black Pete....so bizarre


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## AVNchick (Aug 31, 2022)

This "tradition" was in an episode of ATL when they were in Amsterdam.


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