# Abstinence vs. Marriage



## janiebaby (Jan 31, 2008)

I had a conversation with someone from the church this weekend and this person teaches an abstinence class. I think that marriage should be *promoted *even more than abstinence. It seems like in today's culture we put bandaids on broken bones instead of treating the root of the problem. 

The person went on to say that people aren't trying to hear about marriage. Well if that's the case, I think they are way less likely to wanna hear anything about abstinence. 

I think that we just don't want to scare people off when talking about marriage especially when in today's society it happens later or not at all and during all of that time the person will have to be abstinent. So here we go putting bandaids on things again, we choose to teach about abstinence because marriage is less likely. 

Well, if our culture promoted marriage the way other cultures do (even going so far as to set up their children with each other for when they become of age) we wouldn't have half the problems that we have now. Oh well, I'll just continue to watch how things unfold with the abstinence message which has turned into "I will not have regular sex, just oral sex, masturbation, mutual masturbation, etc."

ETA: Changed "pushed" to promoted...


----------



## gone_fishing (Jan 31, 2008)

Abstinence is hard.  Especially if you aren't a virgin . We messed up a few times last year and we've had a difficult road to travel trying to keep our hands off of each other and waiting till we get married in March. 

God forgive me for my stupidity. 

To me, churches do need to teach marriage - BUT they need to not teach that sex is the reason you get married.

I don't really know how they are to do it but I guess you can only teach them to pray for guidance on who their life partner should be.

I keep saying on this site over and over that I believe the reason it is so difficult to wait for christians today is because we wait so long to seal the deal.

I don't think they had engagements that lasted YEARS back in the bible days. 

Now we find it normal to date for 2 years and have a year engagement and then we tell folks they have gone to fast if they've gotten married before that. 

It sure makes it hard to abstain when you gotta wait 3 years to marry a person.


----------



## janiebaby (Jan 31, 2008)

adequate said:


> Abstinence is hard.  Especially if you aren't a virgin . We messed up a few times last year and we've had a difficult road to travel trying to keep our hands off of each other and waiting till we get married in March.
> 
> God forgive me for my stupidity.
> 
> ...


 

Ad, this time I have to agree with everything you said and I mean everything. (Never thought I'd write that but glad I did)


----------



## Lucie (Jan 31, 2008)

If you are marrying for sex it won't last. Sex is a part of marriage and can make/break a marriage but to marry to get the legal permit will only get you in hot water.

I suspect many of the younger people in my church marry for this reason. And once they get over the thrill of (I could be wrong) sex, it seems to go all downhill from there. Sex is a temporary exhilirating feeling. Love is forever and will last through thick and thin.


----------



## Shimmie (Jan 31, 2008)

PrettyHaitian said:


> If you are marrying for sex it won't last. Sex is a part of marriage and can make/break a marriage but to marry to get the legal permit will only get you in hot water.
> 
> I suspect many of the younger people in my church marry for this reason. And once they get over the thrill of (I could be wrong) sex, it seems to go all downhill from there. Sex is a temporary exhilirating feeling. Love is forever and will last through thick and thin.


This is so true Pretty Haitian.  Many do marry for the 'sex permit' and too often it bears a date of expiration.   

I actually agree with both you and Janiebaby.  Both of you are presenting BOTH sides of this important issue.

Marriage should be promoted for that's what the Bible promotes more than abstinence.  It wasn't until the apostle Paul shared about marriage and the command to those unmarried, that abstinence became more of an issue.  It was always an issue, but marriage was more of the way of life. 

I sure hope I'm making sense.  I'm multi-tasking at my desk.  

Love and blessings to each of you here....this is an excellent thread topic and the views are wonderful from each of you.


----------



## Lucie (Jan 31, 2008)

Shimmie said:


> This is so true Pretty Haitian. Many do marry for the 'sex permit' and too often it bears a date of expiration.
> 
> I actually agree with both you and Janiebaby. Both of you are presenting BOTH sides of this important issue.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you. Nice seeing you Shimmie, ((( HUGS ))).


----------



## janiebaby (Jan 31, 2008)

PrettyHaitian said:


> If you are marrying for sex it won't last. Sex is a part of marriage and can make/break a marriage but to marry to get the legal permit will only get you in hot water.
> 
> I suspect many of the younger people in my church marry for this reason. And once they get over the thrill of (I could be wrong) sex, it seems to go all downhill from there. Sex is a temporary exhilirating feeling. Love is forever and will last through thick and thin.


 
I agree that marriage should not be the means to have sex but I do think that it should be sought out, encouraged more and I would also like to add that we should be prepared for it before engagement. Marriage benefits the entire community, it gives children a firm foundation in a two parent household, men gain a helpmate and women gain security (for lack of a better word) 

Ruth 1:9 May the Lord bless you with the security of another marriage.” Then she kissed them good-bye, and they all broke down and wept. NLV 

Ruth 1:9 The LORD grant you that ye may find rest, each of you in the house of her husband. Then she kissed them; and they lifted up their voice, and wept. KJV

In case you're wondering where I got security from....marriage also provides financial stability as well as emotional stability. Now is it the be all end all? No, without God leading any of our relationships they will all be subject to failure.


----------



## janiebaby (Jan 31, 2008)

Shimmie said:


> This is so true Pretty Haitian. Many do marry for the 'sex permit' and too often it bears a date of expiration.
> 
> I actually agree with both you and Janiebaby. Both of you are presenting BOTH sides of this important issue.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks Shimmie. I'm digging the curls


----------



## Southernbella. (Jan 31, 2008)

I think this is a great thread!

Adequate, I feel your pain, and I agree with you that engagements now are so long that it's hard for couples to abstain. It's ESPECIALLY hard when you know already you're promised to each other. You'd think it would be easier, but no.

I'm not sure of a solution to this. On the one hand, if churches start pushing marriages more, you are going to have people who don't listen to God and marry the first person they think is suitable, then blame the church when it goes wrong.

On the other hand, pushing abstinence on people who aren't sure when/if they are going to get married is a prescription for frustration. Obviously, abstinence is what God commanded, but I think teaching it these days requires teaching practical applications, not just giving scriptures and praying.

It's a tough spot we've put ourselves in these days, that's for sure.


----------



## PaperClip (Jan 31, 2008)

Nothing is won by PUSHING anything on anybody. This isn't a "versus" subject. The greater call is to GUIDE people to Christ and to allow the Word of God to lead, direct, and persuade people to act/behave.

Like I believe Lauren said, PUSHING marriage (mainly to keep folk from fornicating) has probably resulted in some marriages that should have never taken place.

Jesus said "if you love Me, you will keep my commandments". Of course, this does not mean that we are perfect or if we do slip and fall that we are condemned forever. What it means is that we do our best to keep ourselves from getting into situations that will cause us to sin.

The Bible says that marriage is good. People would be encouraged to marry when they see the people who are "pushing" marriage are LIVING WORTHY, SOUND, HEALTHY MARITAL LIVES... FOR REAL...NOT FOR SHOW....


----------



## janiebaby (Jan 31, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Nothing is won by PUSHING anything on anybody. This isn't a "versus" subject. The greater call is to GUIDE people to Christ and to allow the Word of God to lead, direct, and persuade people to act/behave.
> 
> Like I believe Lauren said, PUSHING marriage (mainly to keep folk from fornicating) has probably resulted in some marriages that should have never taken place.
> 
> ...




RR, I agree with everything you wrote especially the bolded but like you said we are not perfect and our marriages will not be perfect. I would like to say more but I will do it in response to Lauren's post. Thank you for keeping things on track. I don't think that pushing anything on anyone is right but I do think that people should be *taught more* and preached to less.


----------



## PaperClip (Jan 31, 2008)

janiebaby said:


> [/b]
> 
> RR, I agree with everything you wrote especially the bolded but like you said we are not perfect and our marriages will not be perfect. I would like to say more but I will do it in response to Lauren's post. Thank you for keeping things on track. I don't think that pushing anything on anyone is right but I do think that people should be *taught more* and preached to less.


 
Cool, JB.... quick clarification for me on this thing about "teaching" and "being taught": I think teaching can be (at times) more effective through MODELING APPROPRIATE BEHAVIOR. The Word is very pure (as the Bible says) and the Word stands forever....but we also "teach" the word through our conduct.


----------



## janiebaby (Jan 31, 2008)

lauren450 said:


> I think this is a great thread!
> 
> Adequate, I feel your pain, and I agree with you that engagements now are so long that it's hard for couples to abstain. It's ESPECIALLY hard when you know already you're promised to each other. You'd think it would be easier, but no.
> 
> ...


 
Hey Lauren I don't think that if churches promoted marriage more than or as much as abstnience that it would push people to marry for sex. In response to the bolded, as it stands now without the promotion of marriage, half of our culture's marriages are failing anyway and if it is because of sex then it has little to do with the promotion of marriage in place of abstinence. 

I think that people get married for many reasons and sex may be one out of a laundry list of reasons. I'm sure many of you have seen or have wrote out this laundry list and I don't think that sex is the highest one up there. Now I do think that sex may cause some people to view their relationship through rose colored glasses but with having sex before marriage or waiting until you are married, sex will still be a factor because we're human. 

I agree with RR in the regards that it doesn't need to be a "versus" thing but I'm not so sure that they can be mentioned seperately either. Therefore, it becomes an issue of what needs to be promoted more or just as much. I don't think that the church should stop teaching abstinence. I just tend to view it as a last ditch effort because people don't want to hear about marriage.


----------



## janiebaby (Jan 31, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Cool, JB.... quick clarification for me on this thing about "teaching" and "being taught": I think teaching can be (at times) more effective through MODELING APPROPRIATE BEHAVIOR. The Word is very pure (as the Bible says) and the Word stands forever....but we also "teach" the word through our conduct.


 
You're right, there has to be an agreement between what someone is teaching and how the teacher is living. I think that in our culture, it is very hard to see what is happening behind closed doors. I can think someone is living a great life but who knows what is going on at home. Now if I see what's going on at home, I may be inclined to ask "Well how'd you do that?" There does have to be a marriage between what is being taught and our conduct. 

I think that for this topic people need to be taught and shown how to endure the hardships of marriage. Marriage isn't a remedy for loneliness, depression, or sexual angst. Marriage is to promote God's kingdom.


----------



## Southernbella. (Jan 31, 2008)

janiebaby said:


> Hey Lauren I don't think that if churches promoted marriage more than or as much as abstnience that it would push people to marry for sex. In response to the bolded, as it stands now without the promotion of marriage, half of our culture's marriages are failing anyway and if it is because of sex then it has little to do with the promotion of marriage in place of abstinence.
> 
> I think that people get married for many reasons and sex may be one out of a laundry list of reasons. I'm sure many of you have seen or have wrote out this laundry list and I don't think that sex is the highest one up there. Now I do think that sex may cause some people to view their relationship through rose colored glasses but with having sex before marriage or waiting until you are married, sex will still be a factor because we're human.
> 
> I agree with RR in the regards that it doesn't need to be a "versus" thing but I'm not so sure that they can be mentioned seperately either. Therefore, it becomes an issue of what needs to be promoted more or just as much. I don't think that the church should stop teaching abstinence. I just tend to view it as a last ditch effort because people don't want to hear about marriage.


 
Oh, I wasn't saying that people would marry just for sex, I just meant that if churches started to push marriage, people might be more apt to jump into it just because it's the thing to do (you know how we can be when it comes to seems to be the new, great thing pastor said), and then when they make wrong choices, they would be blaming the church for it.

I agree with you that culturally, marriage should be a normal part of our lives, but I'm just not sure it should be on the church to make those changes. We have to look at the media, and our own cultural expectations. 

If you asked most black folks if sex outside of marriage is wrong in God's eyes, the answer would be yes, of course. If you asked them if it's better to marry than to fornicate, they would say it's better to marry. We know what's right and what's wrong, but our choices say otherwise. We have to find out where the disconnect is happening, but I honestly don't think it's happening in the church. I know I take umbrage with a few of the things that are taught, but that's not really one of them.

I guess where I disagree with you is about teaching marriage in place of abstinence. I think abstinence is good, as long as you are teaching practical applications of it. I know where the fornication scriptures are, and I know how to pray, but you can't really pray for God to take your desires away. What is helpful is to know how to behave in a courtship...to have accountability during the courting period...what to do if you feel a slip coming on...things like that. 

Also, I think it would be helpful if we had a better perspective on dating and the purpose for it. Many people fall into the trap because they are dating for fun and companionship, rather than for figuring out if someone is a potential husband or wife.


I apologize if I'm misunderstanding your OP. I know this post was all over the place, so thanks for bearing with me.


----------



## alexstin (Jan 31, 2008)

lauren450 said:


> Oh, I wasn't saying that people would marry just for sex, I just meant that if churches started to push marriage, people might be more apt to jump into it just because it's the thing to do (you know how we can be when it comes to seems to be the new, great thing pastor said), and then when they make wrong choices, they would be blaming the church for it.
> 
> I agree with you that culturally, marriage should be a normal part of our lives, but I'm just not sure it should be on the church to make those changes. We have to look at the media, and our own cultural expectations.
> 
> ...




I agree with this. Also, everyone is not going to get married so they need to know practically how to stand against temptation in this area.

My former church  encouraged short engagements. Many people married after about 3-4 months of being engaged.


----------



## janiebaby (Jan 31, 2008)

lauren450 said:


> Oh, I wasn't saying that people would marry just for sex, I just meant that if churches started to push marriage, people might be more apt to jump into it just because it's the thing to do (you know how we can be when it comes to seems to be the new, great thing pastor said), and then when they make wrong choices, they would be blaming the church for it.
> 
> I agree with you that culturally, marriage should be a normal part of our lives, but I'm just not sure it should be on the church to make those changes. We have to look at the media, and our own cultural expectations.
> 
> ...


 
I think we agree with each other in the fact that people should be taught practical applications for being obedient in today's culture. However, I think that the miscommunication is that I'm not saying that the abstinence message should be replaced with a marriage message. I apologize if my OP came off that way.


----------



## Ms Lala (Jan 31, 2008)

People also get married at older ages now which I think also makes it hard.  My mother got married at 1u whereas I have friends who are getting married for the first time and they are over 30.


----------



## janiebaby (Jan 31, 2008)

alexstin said:


> I agree with this. Also, everyone is not going to get married so they need to know practically how to stand against temptation in this area.
> 
> My former church encouraged short engagements. Many people married after about 3-4 months of being engaged.


 
Wow, that's great!


----------



## Shimmie (Jan 31, 2008)

janiebaby said:


> Thanks Shimmie. I'm digging the curls


Thanks Darlin'  

I'm still on both side of this.  Both abstinence and marriage are a "perfect couple".    In 'teaching' and preparation that is........whew!


----------



## Bunny77 (Feb 1, 2008)

Janie, I completely get what you're saying.

As my girl Debbie Maken mentioned, abstinence teaching is great, but what's the point of encouraging waiting until marriage if we then don't encourage marriage? You get people who start thinking, "If I'm not going to get married until I'm 40 or if I'm not 'willed' to get married at all, what's the point of waiting?"

It almost defeats the purpose of teaching abstinence, really... because abstinence isn't supposed to be practiced for the sake of just not having sex, it's supposed to be practiced so that husbands can cleave to wives and vice-versa.

I think churches MUST encourage marriage. I agree there's a disconnect... there is talk about preparing for marriage and then being married and having a healthy marriage, but there's not enough assistance in bringing single folks together so they can get married!

P.S. Janie, I need to get on what you PMed me about a while ago... Jan.-March is the busiest time of the year for me in terms of work!


----------



## Farida (Feb 1, 2008)

I've been in a long-term relationship and it is disheartening that several people are telling us to wait, "you guys are just having fun." Basically, they want us to achieve soooo many things before we even consider marriage. Some even said get married when you get pregnant.

Abstinence is hard and I am so glad I wasn't allowed to date until I was in college. IMO you should not date unless you can feasibly get married soon if you plan to be chaste.


----------



## alexstin (Feb 1, 2008)

vivmaiko said:


> I've been in a long-term relationship and it is disheartening that several people are telling us to wait, "you guys are just having fun." Basically, they want us to achieve soooo many things before we even consider marriage. Some even said get married when you get pregnant.
> 
> Abstinence is hard and I am so glad I wasn't allowed to date until I was in college. *IMO you should not date unless you can feasibly get married soon if you plan to be chaste*.




I agree with this!!!


----------



## Glib Gurl (Feb 1, 2008)

adequate said:


> I don't think they had engagements that lasted YEARS back in the bible days.
> 
> Now we find it normal to date for 2 years and have a year engagement and then we tell folks they have gone to fast if they've gotten married before that.
> 
> It sure makes it hard to abstain when you gotta wait 3 years to marry a person.


 
But back in the day (and not just Bible days . . . I mean like 30-40 years ago) when people had short engagements, often times they got married to quickly to the wrong person to get that "pass" . . . 

I don't know. (Well, actually I do know, but my feeling is more of the "I don't know" flavor *sigh*)  As a single person who doesn't see marriage in sight for a looooong time, I'm feeling frustrated and unhappy . . . not with God, just with the situation in general . . . .


----------



## janiebaby (Feb 1, 2008)

Bunny77 said:


> Janie, I completely get what you're saying.
> 
> As my girl Debbie Maken mentioned, abstinence teaching is great, but what's the point of encouraging waiting until marriage if we then don't encourage marriage? You get people who start thinking, "If I'm not going to get married until I'm 40 or if I'm not 'willed' to get married at all, what's the point of waiting?"
> 
> ...


 

You always take the words out of my mouth!!! In my experience, I feel that in church I either get talked to about how "everyone won't get married" or I hear things that only pertain to married folks. Of course there's a singles ministry which is full of women although in my church we just have an Adults Ministry and it is pretty mixed thankfully. 

I just don't see too many people bringing singles together in an informal setting like people used to do. I hope I'm not offending anyone by bringing up a Jewish article in the Christianity forum but they are our cousins ...

I've read alot of good articles on a Jewish website about marriage and one article was talking about when the author held a dinner he would sit singles who he thought may make a good match at the same table and I also saw an article from a married Jewish woman that spoke about how in most years of her marriage (wasn't sure if she was widowed now) she never gave a thought to single people but now she tries to bring singles together and she also encourages other married couples to do the same. 

Now, do some people still do this sure (maybe)? I know sometimes a guy will do this when their friend doesn't want to be a third wheel. I think that instead of being leery of single people, people should think about ways to get them together. I mean telling people to stay abstinent for the rest of their lives (can be up to 90 years these days) can be disheartening for some and can you blame them?


----------



## janiebaby (Feb 1, 2008)

Glib Gurl said:


> But back in the day (and not just Bible days . . . I mean like 30-40 years ago) when people had short engagements, often times they got married to quickly to the wrong person to get that "pass" . . .
> 
> I don't know. (Well, actually I do know, but my feeling is more of the "I don't know" flavor *sigh*) As a single person who doesn't see marriage in sight for a looooong time, I'm feeling frustrated and unhappy . . . not with God, just with the situation in general . . . .


 
Glib, you know what I keep noticing about different cultures and myself and my culture? We all expect different things...When I see other cultures I look at some of them like "are you happy doing what you do?" and you know what? It's a way of life they're expectations are different. They don't expect as much from a relationship that we do. It's our expectations that make us disappointed. Well at least in my case...


----------



## janiebaby (Feb 1, 2008)

vivmaiko said:


> *I've been in a long-term relationship and it is disheartening that several people are telling us to wait, "you guys are just having fun." Basically, they want us to achieve soooo many things before we even consider marriage. Some even said get married when you get pregnant.*
> 
> Abstinence is hard and I am so glad I wasn't allowed to date until I was in college. IMO you should not date unless you can feasibly get married soon if you plan to be chaste.


 

Yes, I remember speaking about this in a thread before. I wouldn't advise anyone to wait unless they were under 18 or getting married for far out reasons. Back in the day children would be prepared for marriage at early ages, even shown how to please their husbands. Granted they got married earlier too but why do you think that is? All the thinking in the world ain't gonna stop sex hormones!!! Now your actions may be stopped by thinking but, um, people back then thought it was a surer bet to get you married quick.

I think that at least in our culture we should start teaching children how to be adults in this world instead of telling them to extend their childhood.


----------



## Glib Gurl (Feb 1, 2008)

janiebaby said:


> Glib, you know what I keep noticing about different cultures and myself and my culture? We all expect different things...When I see other cultures I look at some of them like "are you happy doing what you do?" and you know what? It's a way of life they're expectations are different. They don't expect as much from a relationship that we do. It's our expectations that make us disappointed. Well at least in my case...


 
That is a great point!


----------



## Ms Red (Feb 3, 2008)

This is a great, thought-provoking thread. 

I agree with the previous poster who stated that part of the issue is the fact that many of us are waiting to marry at such late ages (30s and beyond) whereas our parents and/or previous generations married much younger (18-20s)...

There is a definite disconnect and I am frustrated as well at times.


----------



## Farida (Feb 3, 2008)

I have read several articles that talk about how our way of life today is really wreaking havoc on our principles. Now, I'm not saying that it is impossible to remain chaste...I know several 40-year-old virgin MEN, and they are not by any means weirdos or un marriable-types.

The thing is though I have noticed, especially among minorities, that the parents (who have the best intentions) encourage their kids to work for years and go to school for years and that marriage is just a distraction from all this. Which has some truth to it, but sometimes you have to weigh the benefits of each scenario.

For example, I often wondered why Latinas (not all of course) get pregnant so young even though they are often Catholic and their culture is conservative. I got to spend some time in Mexico city and I noticed that the kids there were allowed to date from a very early age, the billboards, magazines and TV shows were very racy. I'm talking you see naked butts on giant billboards and on magazine covers everywhere. However, nobody talked about sex or marriage. Just work hard, have fun and then they would only push marriage when pregnancy happened. Maybe I'm over-simplifying the issue but that is what I saw. I believe more kids would do it right if they were encouraged to marry when they had their heads on straight, rather than using material possessions as markers.

I have several married friends and they are mostly young, white Christians. They dated for like a year and went home, talked to their parents and got married. The parents were very supportive. Whereas myself, when I thought of marriage, I knew I'd be eaten alive if I suggested it despite being in a relationship for 4 years. However, my family was surprisingly supportive, but FH's weren't. They said we should continue to date or another 10-16 years! Marriage is tertiary, not a blessing but a distraction.


----------



## Bunny77 (Feb 3, 2008)

vivmaiko said:


> The thing is though I have noticed, especially among minorities, that the parents (who have the best intentions) encourage their kids to work for years and go to school for years and that marriage is just a distraction from all this. Which has some truth to it, but sometimes you have to weigh the benefits of each scenario.
> 
> I have several married friends and they are mostly young, white Christians. They dated for like a year and went home, talked to their parents and got married. The parents were very supportive. Whereas myself, when I thought of marriage, I knew I'd be eaten alive if I suggested it despite being in a relationship for 4 years. However, my family was surprisingly supportive, but FH's weren't. They said we should continue to date or another 10-16 years! Marriage is tertiary, not a blessing but a distraction.



I agree with you.

Now, I wasn't even thinking about marriage when I was 21-22 or otherwise, but I remember coming home from college sometimes and people were saying, "You aren't going to get married are you?" (they meant in the near future)

When I'd say no, they'd say, "Good. Get your education, you have your whole life ahead of you, follow your dreams, men are trouble, blah blah blah."  

The funny thing is, they would just bring this topic up out of nowhere, like they had to "warn" me just in case I was thinking of "derailing" myself by getting married young.

In some ways, I understand where they're coming from, because they want me to take advantage of opportunities they didn't have. At the same time, when young women are constantly told to wait wait wait until... whenever... I think it puts a negative perception in your head eventually... like you can't even say, "Well, I'd like to get married at some point," without hearing the boo-birds come out.

Of course, then you hit 35 and you're still single and it's like, "Why are you single???"  

Again, it's all about that disconnect I'm talking about...


----------



## Bunny77 (Feb 3, 2008)

janiebaby said:


> You always take the words out of my mouth!!! In my experience, I feel that in church I either get talked to about how *"everyone won't get married"* or I hear things that only pertain to married folks. Of course there's a singles ministry which is full of women although in my church we just have an Adults Ministry and it is pretty mixed thankfully.



Yet another problem!

I think if this message is repeated too much, you will find people who might just say, "Well what's the point of being abstinent then if I'm never going to marry?"

Churches can respond that you should abstain simply because God wants you to do that, but I can see how people might say to themselves, "Why bother? You're telling me to wait until marriage before having sex, but then you're implying that I possibly won't get married. Then I see all of these great single Christian women in my church who are 30, 40 and older and never married and I'm being told this could possibly be MY future? No thanks!"

In cultures and faiths that emphasize marriage, marriage rates are high because the people are taught that getting married is as natural as waking up and going to sleep. I think that if churches began taking this approach more, there wouldn't be a need to say "Well, everyone won't get married."

And abstinence teaching would be so much more effective if people knew they had something to look forward to in a few years -- not a few decades!!! Yikes!


----------



## Farida (Feb 4, 2008)

Bunny77 said:


> I agree with you.
> 
> Now, I wasn't even thinking about marriage when I was 21-22 or otherwise, but I remember coming home from college sometimes and people were saying, "You aren't going to get married are you?" (they meant in the near future)
> 
> ...



ITA... marriage is discouraged for years and all of a sudden it gets to a point where everyone, including the people who were discouraging you, are like, "why aren't you married yet? are you gay? why are you scaring men?"

It is also very hard to work towards a goal that seems to have no definition. It is frustrating in the least...


----------



## janiebaby (Feb 4, 2008)

vivmaiko said:


> ITA... marriage is discouraged for years and all of a sudden it gets to a point where everyone, including the people who were discouraging you, are like, "why aren't you married yet? are you gay? why are you scaring men?"
> 
> It is also very hard to work towards a goal that seems to have no definition. It is frustrating in the least...


 
I really can't wait until I have children....Why do parents teach children these things?? I've heard men encourage their sons to not get married and I've also seen mothers encourage their sons not to get married (which repulses me). The women were single, divorced and married mothers  . 

Meanwhile I don't see people saying don't have sex AND don't get married. I mean they say "have fun" which is my whole point, people are going to want to have sex today, tomorrow, someday, forever....why not encourage marriage instead of giving up hope and throwing condoms at people? 

Am I in Bizarro land????


----------



## PaperClip (Feb 4, 2008)

janiebaby said:


> I really can't wait until I have children....Why do parents teach children these things?? I've heard men encourage their sons to not get married and I've also seen mothers encourage their sons not to get married (which repulses me). The women were single, divorced and married mothers  .
> 
> Meanwhile I don't see people saying don't have sex AND don't get married. I mean they say "have fun" which is my whole point, people are going to want to have sex today, tomorrow, someday, forever....why not encourage marriage instead of giving up hope and throwing condoms at people?
> 
> Am I in Bizarro land????


 
Because encouraging marriage in and of itself does not automatically mean COMPATIBILITY in marriage. It helps (A LOT, I presume) to marry somebody that you are compatible with, whether a person is a Christian or not. 

I have been at my church for almost 20 years, and in that entire time, I have not met ONE DUDE who I felt I was compatible with enough to consider a third date. Marriage is strongly encouraged at my church. And when I look around, I ask: who can I marry? Who would want to marry me?

I want to have sex. I have TRIED to make appointments for sex...as most recently as last fall. Got blocked. I am knocking strong on the door of 40....

A sad, sad, heartbreaking situation INDEED....

And from a conversation I had with somebody over the weekend, it appears that more folk are "helping each other" sexually....  Wow.... The Holy Spirit did give me a "check" on the slippery slope of "am I the only holding out" theory.


----------



## janiebaby (Feb 4, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Because encouraging marriage in and of itself does not automatically mean COMPATIBILITY in marriage. It helps (A LOT, I presume) to marry somebody that you are compatible with, whether a person is a Christian or not.
> 
> I have been at my church for almost 20 years, and in that entire time, I have not met ONE DUDE who I felt I was compatible with enough to consider a third date. Marriage is strongly encouraged at my church. And when I look around, I ask: who can I marry? Who would want to marry me?
> 
> ...


 
Sex can be good and sex can be bad so don't fall into the "I just wanna know what it feels like" trap because you just may get one of the bad ones. Also, you don't want to feel the guilt and emotional pain not to mention physical setbacks in some cases that comes with it. 

In light of the marriage thing, I think that people should be taught what marriage is all about instead of saying "Women don't give it up to these men until they put a ring on your finger" or "Men marry these women". My pastor does however tell us about how to conduct ourselves in marriage but what I want to know is "how do we get there?". Since women are supposed to be found, why not encourage men to look for a wife with the same fervor they look for a bed mate and women to be sought after for marriage with the same fervor that we seek attention (mostly negative by way of sex appeal)?


----------



## PaperClip (Feb 4, 2008)

janiebaby said:


> Sex can be good and sex can be bad so don't fall into the "I just wanna know what it feels like" trap because you just may get one of the bad ones. Also, you don't want to feel the guilt and emotional pain not to mention physical setbacks in some cases that comes with it.
> 
> In light of the marriage thing, I think that people should be taught what marriage is all about instead of saying "Women don't give it up to these men until they put a ring on your finger" or "Men marry these women". My pastor does however tell us about how to conduct ourselves in marriage but what I want to know is "how do we get there?". Since women are supposed to be found, *why not encourage men to look for a wife with the same fervor they look for a bed mate* and women to be sought after for marriage with the same fervor that we seek attention (mostly negative by way of sex appeal)?


 
At this point, a choice I would make to have sex out of marriage would be my own choice. I couldn't say "I didn't know" or "I couldn't control myself". Not saying I'm perfect, but it would be "Hey Lord, can you forgive me for this later" kind of thing (YIKES!) While I don't know first-hand the physical and emotional traumas that occur with having sex outside of marriage (regardless of if the sex is good or otherwise), I have heard A LOT of stories and most days I'm grateful for where I am....

You ask about encouraging men to seek a wife with the same fervor, etc.? Well, for one thing, how can the men hear the message if the men are not in church to hear it? Also, it seems that a man can get a woman for sex without much effort, so why should they put effort into something that doesn't need effort?


----------



## janiebaby (Feb 4, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> At this point, a choice I would make to have sex out of marriage would be my own choice. I couldn't say "I didn't know" or "I couldn't control myself". Not saying I'm perfect, but it would be "Hey Lord, can you forgive me for this later" kind of thing (YIKES!) While I don't know first-hand the physical and emotional traumas that occur with having sex outside of marriage (regardless of if the sex is good or otherwise), I have heard A LOT of stories and most days I'm grateful for where I am....
> 
> You ask about encouraging men to seek a wife with the same fervor, etc.? *Well, for one thing, how can the men hear the message if the men are not in church to hear it? Also, it seems that a man can get a woman for sex without much effort, so why should they put effort into something that doesn't need effort?*


 

I had to laugh at the first question, because you are right! I guess it goes back to what I was saying a few posts ago about mothers and fathers encouraging their sons to get married and it may be more of a cultural issue than a church issue. 

Yes a man can get a woman for sex but I don't think men seek wives for just sex and I don't think encouraging them to see a wife sooner than later is going to make them seek out a wife for sex alone (though it may be a motivator). 

I wish I had a link to an article written by a man that said that women are more likely to bring up sex than men which in my experience is true and I have been guilty of this in the past. This can also be backed up by comparing the ages of when most girls and boys lose their virginity. Most girls lose their virginity at a younger age than boys. How is this so? Because they're having sex with older guys. 

The ones that have tried me first in the past were impressed when I didn't give in. I've also read a book by a man (I like to read things written by men on this subject) that sometimes men will try "not" to have sex with a woman he is serious about because he does not want to put her in the "all the others" category. I have also seen real life examples of this with friends and myself. 

Below is a link to a very good (very, very long) article about this whole sex thing in our culture....
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,878002-1,00.html


----------



## PaperClip (Feb 4, 2008)

janiebaby said:


> I had to laugh at the first question, because you are right! I guess it goes back to what I was saying a few posts ago about mothers and fathers encouraging their sons to get married and it may be more of a cultural issue than a church issue.
> 
> Yes a man can get a woman for sex but I don't think men seek wives for just sex and I don't think encouraging them to see a wife sooner than later is going to make them seek out a wife for sex alone (though it may be a motivator).
> 
> ...


 
The guys ALWAYS brought it up first with me. I never brought it up first. I think that a man who wrote that was either projecting his own experience or shifting blame to avoid responsibility/accountability for his own actions.


----------



## janiebaby (Feb 4, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> The guys ALWAYS brought it up first with me. I never brought it up first. I think that a man who wrote that was either *projecting his own experience* or shifting blame to avoid responsibility/accountability for his own actions.


 

Ooops, I just reread what I wrote. He was talking about his experience with women. I'll try to find the link and post it.


----------



## Farida (Feb 4, 2008)

The point of this thread (OP correct me if I am wrong) is to say that we need to encourage the beauty of marriage (not just to anyone) with the same fervor as celibacy seems to be sold nowadays.

R&R the problem is a lot of men are not encouraged to seek wives. I have heard several Christian men teach their sons to go out and "sow wild oats." Outside of church the encouragement seems lacking.

Also, I don't think some people are raising sons to be men. They allow them to behave like boys way too long. Some men are embarrassed to admit that they want a wife.


----------



## DayStar (Feb 5, 2008)

adequate said:


> Abstinence is hard.  Especially if you aren't a virgin . We messed up a few times last year and we've had a difficult road to travel trying to keep our hands off of each other and waiting till we get married in March.
> 
> God forgive me for my stupidity.
> 
> ...



GREAT response! Abstinence is hard EVEN as a virgin .......but im sure it is more even difficult for those already experiencing the goods.


----------



## DayStar (Feb 5, 2008)

vivmaiko said:


> I've been in a long-term relationship and it is disheartening that several people are telling us to wait, "you guys are just having fun." Basically, they want us to achieve soooo many things before we even consider marriage. Some even said get married when you get pregnant.
> 
> Abstinence is hard and I am so glad I wasn't allowed to date until I was in college. *IMO you should not date unless you can feasibly get married soon if you plan to be chaste.*



i so agree ..


----------



## janiebaby (Feb 5, 2008)

vivmaiko said:


> The point of this thread (OP correct me if I am wrong) is to say that we need to encourage the beauty of marriage (not just to anyone) with the same fervor as celibacy seems to be sold nowadays.
> 
> R&R the problem is a lot of men are not encouraged to seek wives. I have heard several Christian men teach their sons to go out and "sow wild oats." Outside of church the encouragement seems lacking.
> 
> Also, I don't think some people are raising sons to be men. They allow them to behave like boys way too long. Some men are embarrassed to admit that they want a wife.


 
Hey Viv! I agree with you, our society is encouraging men and women to prolong their childhood and now everyone is wondering why our men and women are "failing to launch". 

I thought the whole purpose of childhood was to prepare boys and girls for adulthood. Since this is the Christianity forum here's some scripture,
*Pr 22:6 ¶ Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. *

Viv, in regards to something else you said, I think both men and women are embarassed to admit that they want to be married for fear that, like Bunny said, people will discourage you then turn around and ask later "Why aren't you married yet?"

Keyword: Train

Main Entry: 3train Function: _verb_ Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French _trainer,_ from Vulgar Latin _*traginare;_ akin to Latin _trahere_ to draw Date: 15th century _transitive verb_1*:* trail drag2*:* to direct the growth of (a plant) usually by bending, pruning, and tying3 a*:* *to form by instruction, discipline, or drill* b*:* *to teach so as to make fit, qualified, or proficient*4*:* *to make prepared (as by exercise) for a test of skill*5*:* *to aim at an object or objective*


----------



## Ms Red (Feb 5, 2008)

Viv, I agree.

I have experienced the product of discouraging a son from marriage. My boyfriend grew up hearing 'Don't get married, get your education' from his mother... He was not raised as a 'future husband' and he has emotionally paid for it.  His mother was married to his dad and then later divorced and spent the majority of my bf's childhood (and now) as a single parent. None of her children (5 boys, ages 30 to 19) are married, and none (except my bf) are even thinking in the realm of marriage.

They were raised in the church but didn't get the message there either. erplexed Once we had dated for 2 years he confessed that he never really pictured himself with a wife. Ever. Things have drastically changed since he made that comment but I'm just using this as an example. Some are not teaching their sons to be men, future fathers or husbands. To this day, I don't think his mother is concerned at all about him marrying (as a matter of fact, she might dislike the idea, actually )


----------

