# Pastor Kicks Transvestite Out of Uncle's Funeral



## Enchantmt (Aug 25, 2007)

OK...THIS IS GOING TO BE *VERY *CONTROVERSIAL FOR SOME, AND WE WILL PROBABLY GET COMMENTS FROM FOLX WHO DONT NORMALLY POST HERE. I'M GOING TO SAY IN ADVANCE...KEEP IT CIVIL OR KEEP IT MOVING...INSULTING OR INFLAMMATORY  POSTS WILL BE DELETED.

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http://www.wafb.com/Global/story.asp?S=6866348&pass=1#poll63027

_A Denham Springs man showed up at his uncle's funeral only to be kicked out by the pastor of the church. The reason? The man was wearing a dress. The pastor says he did the right thing. The transvestite insists he's heartbroken. WAFB's Caroline Moses reports on Dermaine and his dress. 

Dermaine Johnson says he feels more like a woman than a man, and has for a while. He is attracted to men, and on most any day, he looks more like a woman. Johnson says, "This is who I am. I can't change that, that's me. Take me or leave me." 

Dermaine put on a black dress and headed to his uncle's funeral earlier this month, only to be told he would have to leave. He says, "There wasn't no doubt they were judging me." Dermaine says both the pastor of New Zion Baptist Church in Denham Springs, and the pastor's wife, kicked him out of the church. He says, "He's like, 'Cause of the way you dress.' I was like, 'Hmmm, the way I'm dressed.'"

A woman says, "I was mad 'cause that's my best friend. I was mad." The woman did not want to give her name, but she says it was her father, Randolf Johnson's funeral, and he would have wanted his entire family to be there. She says, "I felt hurt, you know, it wasn't right and humiliating to us 'cause we are so big and people be trying to hate on us."

Johnson says he was close to his Uncle Randolf, too close not to go to his funeral. He says, "There is no way in heaven that God would want somebody to do this to somebody, just hurtful. I didn't like it at all."

Before Reverend Leroy Alvin Taylor of New Zion drove away from our cameras, he told us he did ask Dermaine to leave because he was wearing a dress. The reverend said, "You got to do what you got to do." Johnson says, "It made me feel like I was an infant baby, just left alone in the world with nobody to care for me." He says, "I came back home and I felt so bad, I just cried probably for like two hours." 

He adds, "I wanted to be strong, so for my family, so I didn't hold my head down. I held it up." "I say, 'Come as you are, not to be judged when you get to the door,'" says Johnson. _


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Thoughts???


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## StrawberryQueen (Aug 25, 2007)

That's so sad he was made to leave, his uncle probably loved him as he was.

Did the pastor also kick out the alcoholics, liars, thieves, adulters, child molesters?  If so then he did the right thing.  If not-well...  And that's all I will say.


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## Maynard (Aug 25, 2007)

StrawberryQueen said:


> That's so sad he was made to leave, his uncle probably loved him as he was.
> 
> *Did the pastor also kick out the alcoholics, liars, thieves, adulters, child molesters?* If so then he did the right thing. If not-well... And that's all I will say.


 
That would be interesting to know. Its unfortunate that he can't share in mourning with his other family members. Sad.


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## Mocha5 (Aug 25, 2007)

Enchantmt said:


> OK...THIS IS GOING TO BE *VERY *CONTROVERSIAL FOR SOME, *AND WE WILL PROBABLY GET COMMENTS FROM FOLX WHO DONT NORMALLY POST HERE.*
> 
> 
> *Well good.  People should come here more often.  We're not perfect but it's a lotta love here. *
> ...


 
*First and foremost just because he was presiding over the funeral doesn't give him the right to kick anybody out of nowhere!  What they shoulda done was kicked his behind out and proceeded with the service without him.  What ever happened to love the person and hate the sin??? *


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## StrawberryQueen (Aug 25, 2007)

Mocha5 said:


> *First and foremost just because he was presiding over the funeral doesn't give him the right to kick anybody out of nowhere! What they shoulda done was kicked his behind out and proceeded with the service without him. What ever happened to love the person and hate the sin??? *


It went out the door when folks started to pick and choose the sins they wanted to punish and the teachings of the Word they choose to implement.

Also, it take so much more energy and effort to love someone despite their flaws instead of coming down on them like a ton of bricks.


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## Mocha5 (Aug 25, 2007)

StrawberryQueen said:


> It went out the door when folks started to pick and choose the sins they wanted to punish and the teachings of the Word they choose to implement.
> 
> *Also, it take so much more energy and effort to love someone despite their flaws instead of coming down on them like a ton of bricks.*


 
When it should be the other way around.  Somebody forgot to tell him that love covers all offences...


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## Enchantmt (Aug 25, 2007)

Well, I'm of two minds. On one hand we arent to give place to evil. There are scriptures that speak to men and women dressing like the opposite sex. Christianity embraces all people, but it isnt tolerent in the aspect that anything goes just because you can be forgiven for it, and flaunting unrepentant behavior in the face of God. God is a holy God and we are to have respect for His house. Yes we are to come as we are, but once we receive Christ we are to grow and mature in the things of Christ and bring our behavior into alignment with Gods word. The word says if you love God you will obey, if you are in fellowship with God and love Him, you will do your best to obey Him, which means changing to bring your thoughts and behavior in line with the word of God.

On the other hand, even though the funeral took place in a church, you cant expect everyone who comes to pay their respects to be Christian. We dont know whether or not the person being kicked out was Christian or not. I think it was insensitive for the pastor to react this way during a time the family was already hurting. I think he should have taken the person  aside and spoke with him, instead of publically shaming him. 

So, while I wouldnt have kicked him out, I can see someone being enraged at the (real or perceived) disrespect of Gods house to react first and think later. Even Jesus went off kicking money changers out of God's temple. Not exactly the same thing, but are we to allow EVERY and ANYTHING to go on in the house of God? How are folx supposed to tell us apart from the world if we look and behave just like the world?


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## Sasha Fierce (Aug 25, 2007)

StrawberryQueen said:


> That's so sad he was made to leave, his uncle probably loved him as he was.
> 
> Did the pastor also kick out the alcoholics, liars, thieves, adulters, child molesters? If so then he did the right thing. If not-well... And that's all I will say.


 
Right.  If the preacher kicked out everyone who was involved in some sort of sin, there would have been an empty church.  And the killer part is that kicking everybody out who was doing wrong would require him to leave too.


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## JewelleNY (Aug 25, 2007)

*Doesn't God say to come as you are?  Maybe that man would have been touched by God that day, it isn't up to the minister to judge, I think churches are too condemning, how do you reach people when you turn them away, I thought only God had that power *


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## baby42 (Aug 25, 2007)

StrawberryQueen said:


> That's so sad he was made to leave, his uncle probably loved him as he was.
> 
> Did the pastor also kick out the alcoholics, liars, thieves, adulters, child molesters? If so then he did the right thing. If not-well... And that's all I will say.


 this sad for sure i wouldnt want to belong to that church it was a funeral he had no right to do that THEY MAN DID NOT BELONG TO THAT CHURCH WHAT WAS THE POINT OF DOING THAT? WHAT GAY PEOPLE DONT LOVE GOD?or have family that die or are you to give a guess list of who is comeing?so if they gay stay away like i said i would never go to him for nothing because he did this who nexts?


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## alexstin (Aug 25, 2007)




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## Mocha5 (Aug 25, 2007)

Enchantmt said:


> Well, I'm of two minds. On one hand we arent to give place to evil. There are scriptures that speak to men and women dressing like the opposite sex. Christianity embraces all people, but it isnt tolerent in the aspect that anything goes just because you can be forgiven for it, and flaunting unrepentant behavior in the face of God. God is a holy God and we are to have respect for His house. Yes we are to come as we are, but once we receive Christ we are to grow and mature in the things of Christ and bring our behavior into alignment with Gods word.
> 
> Right, we are to come as we are.  But he was not allowed to.  At the point where he was kicked out everything else from receiving Christ to bringing his behavior into alignment with God's word was null and void.
> 
> ...


 
We shouldn't behave just like the world.  Your first paragraph is a testament to this.  But many of us wouldn't be saved and where we are now had someone not accepted us as we first were.


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## Enchantmt (Aug 25, 2007)

Mocha5 said:


> We shouldn't behave just like the world.  Your first paragraph is a testament to this.  But many of us wouldn't be saved and where we are now had someone not accepted us as we first were.



I agree. I've always said to get folx saved first and then God will help lead and guide them into any changes they need to make.


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## kbragg (Aug 25, 2007)

There a difference between having sin, and FLAUNTING it. That guy knew exactly what he was doing - making a statement. IF he was repentant he would've had enough respect for his family and for God's house to "dress up' like a man for one day, but no, he CHOSE to FLAUNT his sin. Those of you saying the Pastor should've kicked out all the sinners really need to compare apples to apples. Would the Pastor have let some drunk dude come in the church drinking his 40? I venture to say that he wouldn't have made it past the doors. What about somebody who was cussing up a storm? Don't think they would've made it in either. Jesus said to judge righteous judgement. We are to hate what He hates. God HATES homosexuality, He HATES pride, and IMO this "man" was displaying both. Jesus said to come as you are YES, but He also said to HUMBLE YOURSELVES. I mean, think about it. How would you feel about an unmarried couple, feeling each other up during service? Or a child molester touch a child as they walked past their pew. Come as you are? No. That's flaunting your sin, spitting in the face of God, and He will NOT honor that. Jesus gave grace to the HUMBLE, but rebuked the proud (the rich man, the pharasies, etc.) and we are to do as He did. The Bible clearly states that we are to rebuke, in LOVE, not just look the other way. I'm sure someone will call me a hate monger and quote my post in some Christian bashing thread later on but oh well, don't take it up with me, take it up with my Daddy!


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## kbragg (Aug 25, 2007)

Enchantmt said:


> I agree. I've always said to get folx saved first and then God will help lead and guide them into any changes they need to make.


 
Folx can't GET saved until they humble themselves before the Lord. This is why we have so many false converts in the church today. Everyone wants to be seeker friendly, so much so that the Gospel isn't preached. Preachers say "come to Jesus to get a new car and solve all your problems," instead of the Gospel which is Jesus died for your sins, but if you don't repent of your sins, meaning turn away from them, you are in danger of hell. People call it "Fire & Brimstone" preaching, but that's what Jesus preach to the PROUD. He gave grace to the humble. The woman caught in adultery is a perfect example. She was humble, repentant, ashamed, and repentant. Jesus showed her mercy. Now if she would've came out there all haughty like with her "man" flaunting her sin in the street, would Jesus have responded the same way? I don't think so. Jesus Himself said not to fear man who can only destroy the body, but rather fear Him who can destroy both body AND soul in Hell.

Anyway, I know my thinking goes against the current grain but that's ok. The path is narrow, I'd rather be on the narrow path of the Gospel than the wide path of the "seeker Friendly" movement.


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## Mocha5 (Aug 25, 2007)

kbragg said:


> There a difference between having sin, and FLAUNTING it. That guy knew exactly what he was doing - making a statement. IF he was repentant he would've had enough respect for his family and for God's house to "dress up' like a man for one day, but no, he CHOSE to FLAUNT his sin.
> 
> Sin is sin rather he's out in a dress or at home sleeping with men.  I  prefer the former.  At least you know what you're dealing with it.  The one thing I know for sure is that one of my sistas WILL NOT be marrying him.  The other well...you already know the deal.
> 
> Those of you saying the Pastor should've kicked out all the sinners really need to compare apples to apples. Would the Pastor have let some drunk dude come in the church drinking his 40? I venture to say that he wouldn't have made it past the doors. What about somebody who was cussing up a storm? Don't think they would've made it in either. Jesus said to judge righteous judgement. We are to hate what He hates. God HATES homosexuality, He HATES pride, and IMO this "man" was displaying both. Jesus said to come as you are YES, but He also said to HUMBLE YOURSELVES. I mean, think about it. How would you feel about an unmarried couple, feeling each other up during service? Or a child molester touch a child as they walked past their pew. Come as you are? No. That's flaunting your sin, spitting in the face of God, and He will NOT honor that. Jesus gave grace to the HUMBLE, but rebuked the proud (the rich man, the pharasies, etc.) and we are to do as He did. *The Bible clearly states that we are to rebuke, in LOVE, not just look the other way.* I'm sure someone will call me a hate monger and quote my post in some Christian bashing thread later on but oh well, don't take it up with me, take it up with my Daddy!


 
And when it's all said and done..where was the love?  Maybe he should have offered him a shirt and pants.  That would have been rebuking in love.


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## Mocha5 (Aug 25, 2007)

kbragg said:


> Folx can't GET saved until they humble themselves before the Lord.
> 
> True dat.  I have a list of people who's salvation I pray for daily.  And I ask daily that their pride be washed away.  The problem is that many  don't even know they're being prideful.  I'm sure he just thought he was being "himself."
> 
> ...


 

Refer to me as "seeking in love" on the narrow path


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## Kurlee (Aug 25, 2007)

Wow dat was harsh!


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## alexstin (Aug 25, 2007)

kbragg said:


> Folx can't GET saved until they humble themselves before the Lord. This is why we have so many false converts in the church today. Everyone wants to be seeker friendly, so much so that the Gospel isn't preached. Preachers say "come to Jesus to get a new car and solve all your problems," *instead of the Gospel which is Jesus died for your sins, but if you don't repent of your sins, meaning turn away from them, you are in danger of hell. *People call it "Fire & Brimstone" preaching, but that's what Jesus preach to the PROUD. He gave grace to the humble. The woman caught in adultery is a perfect example. She was humble, repentant, ashamed, and repentant. Jesus showed her mercy. Now if she would've came out there all haughty like with her "man" flaunting her sin in the street, would Jesus have responded the same way? I don't think so. Jesus Himself said not to fear man who can only destroy the body, but rather fear Him who can destroy both body AND soul in Hell.
> 
> Anyway, I know my thinking goes against the current grain but that's ok. The path is narrow, I'd rather be on the narrow path of the Gospel than the wide path of the "seeker Friendly" movement.



ETA: Did I miss where this guy came to church to repent of his sins? I'm not sure why that's your focus if he didn't even come there for that.erplexed

I'm sorry hun but that's not the gospel. Search the scriptures, that's not what Jesus preached as the gospel. Jesus didn't preach confess your sins as the Gospel. _FWIW, repent doesn't always mean remorse. If you check out the use of the word in the New Testament you will find many(most) times when the word was used people were being told to change their minds_.  He also didn't tell those who followed Him He was going to die for their sins. I know the church preaches that the Gospel is that Jesus died for our sins so we could be saved but search the scriptures and see what He preached. Jesus told 1 person that he needed to be born again in private(Nicodemus) and he only told His disciples that He was going to die on the cross. He never once mentioned that to all those thousands that followed him during His 3 years of ministry.

It's time for the church to stop preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ and preach the Gospel that Jesus preached and instructed us to preach.


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## Shimmie (Aug 25, 2007)

Both of them were wrong; the Pastor and the Transvestite.

When there is a 'family' gathering of any sort, you are going to have all sorts of lifestyles attending. That's life and it will always be that way. The Pastor behaved harshly by not giving insight to this. He should have proceeded with the service out of respect to the family rather than add more grief to an already grieving situation...the death of a loved one. Kicking this man out from having 'closure' with his uncle's death was cruel and wrong.

The Transvestite was also wrong. Stop and show respect for the events you are attending and get off of that sickening, worn out, whining about, this is the way I am. When you are a man dressing as a woman, you KNOW it going to draw attention of all sorts and reactions to go with it; ESPECIALLY in the house of God. 

I KNOW of Transvestites that DO NOT cross dress where they know full well where it will cause an uprise in people's reactions. They simply act like an adult and avoid confushion and dress accordingly. It would not have killed this man to wear male attire for the small amount of time that he would be attending the funeral services. 

One thing I'm noticing more and more is that alternate lifestyles are being 'FORCED' upon us who do not agree with it. If a person wants to live an alternate lifestyle, fine, that's their choice. However, don't force it in my face or try to influence my children with it. Keep it to yourself or among those who have no problems with it. But don't force me to accept it.  I shouldn't have to compromise / give up my rights just for another to have theirs.  

I truly believe that his actions were in direct defiance regarding the Church; he making a statement that he didn't care if it is a Church, he was going to dress the way he wanted to and nobody was going to stop him from doing so. Now, how do I know this is so? Because this is how satan operates. satan disrespects God and all that there is about Him and surely satan was behind this man's actions to walk into a Church dressing in opposite of his physical gender. This man knew what he was doing and did not care. Again, this is how satan operates.

Both parties were wrong...


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## alexstin (Aug 25, 2007)

Mocha5 said:


> And when it's all said and done..where was the love?  Maybe he should have offered him a shirt and pants.  *That would have been rebuking in love.*



Okay? I don't see how what this guy did is flaunting anything.erplexed That is who he is without the Father.  Though I take issue with a man dressing like a woman, I'm not going to say you have to look presentable according to my standard before I associate with you.


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## alexstin (Aug 25, 2007)

Shimmie said:


> Both of them were wrong; the Pastor and the Transvestite.
> 
> When there is a 'family' gathering of any sort, you are going to have all sorts of lifestyles attending. That's life and it will always be that way. The Pastor behaved harshly by not giving insight to this. He should have proceeded with the service out of respect to the family rather than add more grief to an already grieving situation...the death of a loved one. Kicking this man out from having 'closure' with his uncle's death was cruel and wrong.
> 
> ...



Can you define what you mean by forcing it on you? Thanks!


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## Mocha5 (Aug 25, 2007)

alexstin said:


> Okay? I don't see how what this guy did is flaunting anything.erplexed That is who he is without the Father. Though I take issue with a man dressing like a woman, I'm not going to say you have to look presentable according to my standard before I associate with you.


 
oh I see..lol....thought you were saying something else.  Had to reread it.  We're a hot mess without Him that's for sure!!!


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## Shimmie (Aug 25, 2007)

alexstin said:


> Can you define what you mean by forcing it on you? Thanks!


Not in this thread or the forum...I'll send you a PM with my personal (home) email address and I will share this with you privately if you want my answer.


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## alexstin (Aug 25, 2007)

Shimmie said:


> Not in thread or the forum...I'll send you a PM with my personal email address and I will share this with you privately if you want my answer.




Okay!


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## Mocha5 (Aug 25, 2007)

Shimmie said:


> Both of them were wrong; the Pastor and the Transvestite.
> 
> When there is a 'family' gathering of any sort, you are going to have all sorts of lifestyles attending. That's life and it will always be that way. The Pastor behaved harshly by not giving insight to this. He should have proceeded with the service out of respect to the family rather than add more grief to an already grieving situation...the death of a loved one. Kicking this man out from having 'closure' with his uncle's death was cruel and wrong.
> 
> ...


 
I'm sure satan was just as tickled that the pastor kicked him out.  Surely his soul was not saved that day.


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## Mocha5 (Aug 25, 2007)

Shimmie said:


> Not in this thread or the forum...I'll send you a PM with my personal (home) email address and I will share this with you privately if you want my answer.


 
HEY!!!! I want it toooo!!!! 

ETA:  Not the answer...just your personal info.  I need you there when I give my first sermon and leave this couch


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## StrawberryQueen (Aug 26, 2007)

Enchantmt said:


> Well, I'm of two minds. On one hand we arent to give place to evil. There are scriptures that speak to men and women dressing like the opposite sex. Christianity embraces all people, but it isnt tolerent in the aspect that anything goes just because you can be forgiven for it, and flaunting unrepentant behavior in the face of God?


Hmmm, but wasn't/hasn't the same thing regarding wearing things that pretain to the opposte sex also include women who wear pants?  There are plenty of people and demoninations that prohibit women from wearing pants because they are of the opposite sex and not made for women. * If he kicked out all the women in pants-would it still be the same?*

And how do we know he is unrepentant?  Do any of us know his heart?  Or even why he was in the dress in the 1st place?  It's interesting people consider certain things "flaunting."  Is it because it doesn't fall into line of what you believe that it's flaunting?  What happened to letting folks be themselves and coming to the Lord as they are and letting God handle them?


kbragg said:


> Folx can't GET saved until they humble themselves before the Lord. This is why we have so many false converts in the church today. Everyone wants to be seeker friendly, so much so that the Gospel isn't preached. Preachers say "come to Jesus to get a new car and solve all your problems," instead of the Gospel which is Jesus died for your sins, but if you don't repent of your sins, meaning turn away from them, you are in danger of hell. People call it "Fire & Brimstone" preaching, but that's what Jesus preach to the PROUD. He gave grace to the humble. The woman caught in adultery is a perfect example. She was humble, repentant, ashamed, and repentant. Jesus showed her mercy. Now if she would've came out there all haughty like with her "man" flaunting her sin in the street, would Jesus have responded the same way? I don't think so. Jesus Himself said not to fear man who can only destroy the body, but rather fear Him who can destroy both body AND soul in Hell.
> 
> Anyway, I know my thinking goes against the current grain but that's ok. The path is narrow, I'd rather be on the narrow path of the Gospel than the wide path of the "seeker Friendly" movement.


Jesus is love, point blank.  What you've said isn't rooted in anything remotely clsoe to that.  Thank God for Jesus!


alexstin said:


> Okay? I don't see how what this guy did is flaunting anything.erplexed That is who he is without the Father. Though I take issue with a man dressing like a woman, I'm not going to say you have to look presentable according to my standard before I associate with you.


I agree with everything you've said in the thread.


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## Enchantmt (Aug 26, 2007)

kbragg said:


> Folx can't GET saved until they humble themselves before the Lord. This is why we have so many false converts in the church today. Everyone wants to be seeker friendly, so much so that the Gospel isn't preached. Preachers say "come to Jesus to get a new car and solve all your problems," instead of the Gospel which is Jesus died for your sins, but if you don't repent of your sins, meaning turn away from them, you are in danger of hell. People call it "Fire & Brimstone" preaching, but that's what Jesus preach to the PROUD. He gave grace to the humble. The woman caught in adultery is a perfect example. She was humble, repentant, ashamed, and repentant. Jesus showed her mercy. Now if she would've came out there all haughty like with her "man" flaunting her sin in the street, would Jesus have responded the same way? I don't think so. Jesus Himself said not to fear man who can only destroy the body, but rather fear Him who can destroy both body AND soul in Hell.
> 
> Anyway, I know my thinking goes against the current grain but that's ok. The path is narrow, I'd rather be on the narrow path of the Gospel than the wide path of the "seeker Friendly" movement.




I agree, folx cant get saved until they humble themselves, but I'm assuming that has been done in order to get saved as part of the process of getting saved is confessing sin and Jesus as your lord and savior. They need to see the need to get saved, get saved, and then God can deal with them about things in their lives that arent pleasing to Him. Growing as a Christian is a process. A newly saved person will still have the same thoughts and desires and worldly mind until they can renew their minds in the word of God, so I stand by what I say... get them saved first...and then they have the power of the Holy Spirit to deal with the rest of their baggage.


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## Enchantmt (Aug 26, 2007)

alexstin said:


> ETA: Did I miss where this guy came to church to repent of his sins? I'm not sure why that's your focus if he didn't even come there for that.erplexed
> 
> I'm sorry hun but that's not the gospel. Search the scriptures, that's not what Jesus preached as the gospel. Jesus never preached to the thousands of people following Him that they needed to repent nor did He tell them He was going to die for their sins. I know the church preaches that the Gospel is that Jesus died for our sins so we could be saved but search the scriptures and see what He preached. Jesus told 1 person that he needed to be born again in private(Nicodemus) and he only told His disciples that He was going to die on the cross. He never once mentioned that to all those thousands that followed him during His 3 years of ministry.
> 
> It's time for the church to stop preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ and preach the Gospel that Jesus preached and instructed us to preach.



I agree he was there for a funeral, and not repentance but I dont see how repentance is not a biblical doctrine.  Jesus always told folx to go and sin no more. (repent) Unless someone is willing to turn away from sin (repent) how are they supposed to get in fellowship with God? Jesus died for our sins, but we are still instructed to confess our sins to God and repent of our sins.


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## Enchantmt (Aug 26, 2007)

Shimmie said:


> Both of them were wrong; the Pastor and the Transvestite.
> 
> When there is a 'family' gathering of any sort, you are going to have all sorts of lifestyles attending. That's life and it will always be that way. The Pastor behaved harshly by not giving insight to this. He should have proceeded with the service out of respect to the family rather than add more grief to an already grieving situation...the death of a loved one. Kicking this man out from having 'closure' with his uncle's death was cruel and wrong.
> 
> ...




Shimmie, I agree with your post. This is why I'm of two minds about it, I can see both sides.


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## StrawberryQueen (Aug 26, 2007)

Shimmie said:


> Both of them were wrong; the Pastor and the Transvestite.
> 
> 
> I KNOW of Transvestites that DO NOT cross dress where they know full well where it will cause an uprise in people's reactions. They simply act like an adult and avoid confushion and dress accordingly. It would not have killed this man to wear male attire for the small amount of time that he would be attending the funeral services.
> ...


How does someone force their lifestyle on you?  If you don't like/approve of it, why can't you ignore it?  I mean we're told to do it on the forum, is it too much to ask that it's done in real life?  How are the clothes a person wears, what they believe, who they have sex with any concern of yours?  Do we all not have more to worry about that what someone may or may not be doing?  

This post stuck out to me, because I have read a great deal of civil rigths literature and I recall many saying the same things regarding black people.  "Why does it have to affect us all, why can't you jsut go away and fall in line" etc etc.  I see it happen time and time again regarding majority vs minorty issues, in every walk of life.  Someone could easily say the same thing about you and your beliefs, *it goes both ways*.  

I just have a hard time understanding that mentality.  IMO there's too much sin in the world for me to sit around and check off marks on people "records."  What good does it do me?  Bring me closer to God?  Give me some personal satisfaction?  Who's then doing the same to me?  And what does it look like in God's eyes-the God that loves us all to know his children hate each other because of how they percieve the sins of others.  Is that not a sin in itself?

I am not saying you or anyone needs to be tolerant of something you feel is abbhorant, but IMO it's a stretch to say that any person who si doing their best to live a wholesome, non-threatening lifestyle is hurting you or forcing themselves on you. I don't necessarily like it either, but they're not doing it for me.  Why would I sit around and think of such things and compromise my own faith?

Seeing two men kiss won't hurt you (I hope).  But where is the righteous condemnation or the other sins?  Why is it only these few that regard sexaulity and how others percieve it?  What about the liars?  They do more damage than any homosexual/transvestite.  Or the ones who lust in their hearts?


Shimmie this isn't directed toward you in it's entirety.


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## Enchantmt (Aug 26, 2007)

StrawberryQueen said:


> Hmmm, but wasn't/hasn't the same thing regarding wearing things that pretain to the opposte sex also include women who wear pants?  There are plenty of people and demoninations that prohibit women from wearing pants because they are of the opposite sex and not made for women. * If he kicked out all the women in pants-would it still be the same?*



What is seen as men and womens attire varies from culture to culture. Fashions change.  In biblical times there werent pants, everyone was in robes, so there had to be something about the robes that distinguished them so that it was obvious what was male and female attire. As pants are now both acceptable for males and females, women wearing pants wouldnt be seen as dressing as a man.  A woman in a three piece suit and tie, even though designers are trying to make this womens wear at times, perhaps would be, however even then, unless they are trying to appear as a man, ie, tying down their breasts and actually passing themselves off as a man, I'm not sure it would apply. I've yet to see dresses marketed to men as everyday attire or made culturally acceptable for wear. The scripture is more about deception, presenting yourself as a man or woman, when you arent one.  He is trying to, by his own admission, present himself as a woman, as that is how he is more comfortable. There is no grey area in this situation.


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## StrawberryQueen (Aug 26, 2007)

Enchantmt said:


> What is seen as men and womens attire varies from culture to culture. Fashions change. In biblical times there werent pants, everyone was in robes, so there had to be something about the robes that distinguished them so that it was obvious what was male and female attire. As pants are now both acceptable for males and females, women wearing pants wouldnt be seen as dressing as a man. A woman in a three piece suit and tie, even though designers are trying to make this womens wear at times, perhaps would be, however even then, unless they are trying to appear as a man, ie, tying down their breasts and actually passing themselves off as a man, I'm not sure it would apply. I've yet to see dresses marketed to men as everyday attire or made culturally acceptable for wear. The scripture is more about deception, presenting yourself as a man or woman, when you arent one. He is trying to, by his own admission, present himself as a woman, as that is how he is more comfortable. There is no grey area in this situation.


I understand the reasoning as toward the cultural aspect, but what I am saying is that there are still people-CHRISTIANS who would consider a woman in pants in the church a direct affront to God just as the man with a dress was.  I *know* these people exist and have spent time with them. 
We all interpret scripture diffrently, as the Spirit speaks to us.  I understand the modern definition of what pretains to men as what pertains to women.  But just because something is accepted culturally does not make it holy or of God.  Isn't that living in the world and by the teachings of man? 

And I have seen some clothes (dresses, skirts) marketed for men.  I believe the USPS made skirts for the male mail carriers after they complained (over what I don't know-another thread).  ")


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## Enchantmt (Aug 26, 2007)

StrawberryQueen said:


> I understand the reasoning as toward the cultural aspect, but what I am saying is that there are still people-CHRISTIANS who would consider a woman in pants in the church a direct affront to God just as the man with a dress was.  I *know* these people exist and have spent time with them.
> We all interpret scripture diffrently, as the Spirit speaks to us.  I understand the modern definition of what pretains to men as what pertains to women.  But just because something is accepted culturally does not make it holy or of God.  Isn't that living in the world and by the teachings of man?
> 
> And I have seen some clothes (dresses, skirts) marketed for men.  I believe the USPS made skirts for the male mail carriers after they complained (over what I don't know-another thread).  ")



There are several folx who consider lots of things sins, which arent sins. Wearing pants is not a sin, as a woman is not trying to pass herself off as a man. If you put a woman in pants in front of church goers and non church goers, most folx wont have a problem with it. If you put a man  in a dress in front of church goers, and non church goers, most folx will have a problem with it, because dresses are recognized as womens attire. It's not just about the clothes, I'm sure he had the hair and make up too, which again is trying to represent himself as a woman, as something other than what God created him.


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## StrawberryQueen (Aug 26, 2007)

Enchantmt said:


> There are several folx who consider lots of things sins, which arent sins. Wearing pants is not a sin, as a woman is not trying to pass herself off as a man. If you put a woman in pants in front of church goers and non church goers, most folx wont have a problem with it. If you put a man in a dress in front of church goers, and non church goers, most folx will have a problem with it, because dresses are recognized as womens attire. It's not just about the clothes, I'm sure he had the hair and make up too, which again is trying to represent himself as a woman, as something other than what God created him.


Hmmm ok.  What if the woman had short (close cropped hair)? Or was wearing shoulder pads?  Or had one a tie?  Per our society, we'd think her more masculine and yall know how some folks feel about women with short hair .  What would that be?  I'm just now wrapping my mind around the fact that women wear pants in church.  Where I'm from you are nto allowed in the church in pants *at all*. I had no idea that folks were so liberal until I went to a youth church and saw pants, jeans, etc. 

What does it mean when folks folks find it sinful/wrong and others don't?  Is it those who holler the loudest the ones who are right? I'm just asking...pondering, you don't have to answer as I don't think there really is a answer.

 I don't think the man was made up, as I'm sure the article would have made sure to hammer that home as well.  Would that be a drag queen then?


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## Enchantmt (Aug 26, 2007)

StrawberryQueen said:


> Hmmm ok.  What if the woman had short (close cropped hair)? Or was wearing shoulder pads?  Or had one a tie?  Per our society, we'd think her more masculine and yall know how some folks feel about women with short hair .  What would that be?  I'm just now wrapping my mind around the fact that women wear pants in church.  Where I'm from you are nto allowed in the church in pants *at all*. I had no idea that folks were so liberal until I went to a youth church and saw pants, jeans, etc.
> 
> What does it mean when folks folks find it sinful/wrong and others don't?  Is it those who holler the loudest the ones who are right? I'm just asking...pondering, you don't have to answer as I don't think there really is a answer.
> 
> I don't think the man was made up, as I'm sure the article would have made sure to hammer that home as well.  Would that be a drag queen then?




I dont know how much more I can clarify what I have already said regarding the clothing. While you are scraping pants, scrap tshirts, navy pea coats, trench coats, and other things that were orginally worn by men as well. Also dont carry a briefcase, those were designed for men who had to bring home work. 

 In dealing with things that are not sin that someone believes to be sin, the bible recommends that if your actions will lead them to fall (into sin), do not engage in that behavior around them. Basically, if its sin to YOU, then its sin, in that if you do something you think is a sin you are going against your own conscious and being, in your mind, willfully disobedient.

The person has already stated in the news story that he feels more like a woman than a man. His words, so there is no mistaking intent. Besides, I've yet to see a trans in a dress w/o makeup, but I guess. In the pic on the link it looks like he has foundation on, and you can see the hair, which although some men do grow long hair, black men with relaxers and a flat iron arent normally associated with being "manly" although I'm sure there are some exceptions.


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## alexstin (Aug 26, 2007)

Enchantmt said:


> I agree he was there for a funeral, and not repentance but I dont see how repentance is not a biblical doctrine.  Jesus always told folx to go and sin no more. (repent) Unless someone is willing to turn away from sin (repent) how are they supposed to get in fellowship with God? Jesus died for our sins, but we are still instructed to confess our sins to God and repent of our sins.



I didn't say repentance wasn't bible doctrine. That was the first thing out of Jesus' mouth when he came on the scene.  I'm saying that Jesus didn't preach that as the Gospel(let me go amend my 1st post so it's more clear).  The word repent doesn't always mean to be remorseful,  many times it means to change your mind(in the Greek). Most if not all New Testament usage of repent means to "_change your mind_".So when Jesus came on the scene He told People to repent(change your mind) and receive _the Gospel_. 

Mark 1:15
*and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." *


Oh, ITA He told people not to sin anymore. He also healed people and fed thousands. My issue is what does the church focus on preaching to the world and how that differs significantly from what Jesus preached to the crowd(the world). We(the church) preach as the gospel, the cross, salvation, the blood, healing, prosperity and so on and so. It's quite interesting to go back through the Gospels and see that what Jesus preached(not what He did) to the masses is completely different. 

Please don't think I'm belittling the sacrifice on the cross of my Lord. I take that very seriously.


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## alexstin (Aug 26, 2007)

StrawberryQueen said:


> Hmmm ok.  What if the woman had short (close cropped hair)? Or was wearing shoulder pads?  Or had one a tie?  Per our society, we'd think her more masculine and yall know how some folks feel about women with short hair .  What would that be?  I'm just now wrapping my mind around the fact that women wear pants in church.  *Where I'm from you are nto allowed in the church in pants at all.* I had no idea that folks were so liberal until I went to a youth church and saw pants, jeans, etc.
> 
> What does it mean when folks folks find it sinful/wrong and others don't?  Is it those who holler the loudest the ones who are right? I'm just asking...pondering, you don't have to answer as I don't think there really is a answer.
> 
> I don't think the man was made up, as I'm sure the article would have made sure to hammer that home as well.  Would that be a drag queen then?



Wow! And the reason?


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## Summer_Rain (Aug 26, 2007)

I'm one of those people who have never posted in the Christian forum, but........

When I first looked at the pictures of the dress Dermaine wore, my first impression was : why on earth would ANYONE wear a dress like that to a funeral in a church??!!

I attend a "come as you are" church. Outside of first Sunday - the dress code is lenient (within reason), but there have been many many times where someones attire was too borderline disrespectful/distasteful for a house of worship - and they were immediately given a garment or lap covering. 

Though I don't necessarily agree with the guy being kicked out of the funeral, I also wonder what was "at work" within Dermaine that would cause him to want to wear something that (even on a biological woman) would certainly have caused a disturbence.

This funeral wasn't about Dermaine, it should have been a celebration of Uncle's life. I feel that both the pastor and dermaine were in error for making the service about something else.


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## alexstin (Aug 26, 2007)

SummerRain said:


> I'm one of those people who have never posted in the Christian forum, but........
> 
> *When I first looked at the pictures of the dress Dermaine wore, my first impression was : why on earth would ANYONE wear a dress like that to a funeral in a church??!!*
> 
> ...



Okay I had to go do an internet search based on that.   It just looks like a basic black dress with a cut out at the top. I could imagine a woman wearing that to a funeral. Not me, but someone.


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## Summer_Rain (Aug 26, 2007)

alexstin said:


> Okay I had to go do an internet search based on that. It just looks like a basic black dress with a cut out at the top. I could imagine a woman wearing that to a funeral. Not me, but someone.


 

I couldn't find a clear image...but this looks like a strapless  tube type dress to me, I HOPE someone wouldn't wear something like that to a funeral!! This is a straight up and down club dress! lol


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## alexstin (Aug 26, 2007)

SummerRain said:


> I couldn't find a clear image...but this looks like a strapless  tube type dress to me, I HOPE someone wouldn't wear something like that to a funeral!! This is a straight up and down club dress! lol



See, I think it's sleeveless but not strapless.


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## Enchantmt (Aug 26, 2007)

alexstin said:


> I didn't say repentance wasn't bible doctrine. That was the first thing out of Jesus' mouth when he came on the scene.  I'm saying that Jesus didn't preach that as the Gospel(let me go amend my 1st post).  The word repent means to change your mind(in the Greek) not turn away from sin. So when Jesus came on the scene He told People to repent(change your mind)  and recieve the Gospel.  Now if repent means to change your mind, what were they thinking in the first place?
> 
> 
> Mark 1:15
> *and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." *




I see what you are saying. Since I was always taught this included turning away from sin, I did a search and it depends on the word used. It can be a change of mind, it can also include turning from sin:

http://eastonsbibledictionary.com/r/repent.htm


There are three Greek words used in the New Testament to denote repentance. 

(1.) The verb metamelomai is used of a change of mind, such as to produce regret or even remorse on account of sin, but not necessarily a change of heart. This word is used with reference to the repentance of Judas (Matthew 27:3).

(2.) Metanoeo, meaning to change one's mind and purpose, as the result of after knowledge. This verb, with (3) the cognate noun metanoia, is used of true repentance, a change of mind and purpose and life, *to which remission of sin is promised.*

Evangelical repentance consists of (1) a true sense of one's own guilt and sinfulness; (2) an apprehension of God's mercy in Christ; (3) an actual hatred of sin (Psalm 119:128; Job 42:5, 6; 2 Corinthians 7:10) *and turning from it to God*; and (4) a persistent endeavour after a holy life in a walking with God in the way of his commandments.

The true penitent is conscious of guilt (Psalm 51:4, 9), of pollution (51:5, 7, 10), and of helplessness (51:11; 109:21, 22). Thus he apprehends himself to be just what God has always seen him to be and declares him to be. But repentance comprehends not only such a sense of sin, but also an apprehension of mercy, without which there can be no true repentance (Psalm 51:1; 130:4).


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## alexstin (Aug 26, 2007)

Enchantmt said:


> I see what you are saying. Since I was always taught this included turning away from sin, I did a search and it depends on the word used. *It can be a change of mind, it can also include turning from sin:*
> http://eastonsbibledictionary.com/r/repent.htm
> 
> 
> ...



Right, I think you missed that in my other post for you. What I said was: _The word repent doesn't always mean to be remorseful, many times it means to change your mind(in the Greek).
_
There are different meanings to repent but in the new testament it almost always means _change your mind_.


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## senimoni (Aug 26, 2007)

Had he been attempting to come to a regular service I could maybe see the Pastor pulling him aside and speaking with him but he was there for a funeral, a once in a lifetime affair, I think the Pastor was wrong.


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## firecracker (Aug 26, 2007)

_She says, "I felt hurt, you know, it wasn't right and humiliating to us 'cause we are so big and *people be trying to hate on us*."  _

_Damn why er'body wanna use that damn line _
_The pastor had no right to throw that sissy boy outta his own uncles funeral. The transvestite shoulda grabbed ole pastors *** before he exited the service.   _


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## mrsmeredith (Aug 26, 2007)

With everything being said I think enchantment and kbraggs has said it all for me. I completely agree them.


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## Enchantmt (Aug 26, 2007)

I discussed this with my sister in law since she studies more than I. She said the pastor shouldnt have addressed him, that if he is a believer, God will deal harshly with him, if he wasnt a believer, he may have heard something there that would have caused him to repent and get saved. She said if he is a beliver his salvation is secure, but in this life you reap what you sow, and that no one gets away with anything. I still see both sides of it, tho.


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## StrawberryQueen (Aug 26, 2007)

alexstin said:


> Wow! And the reason?


They feel just it's inappropriate for women to wear pants, suits and things of that nature because those things are for men and when women wear them they are trying to either be men or emasculate the men.  They also have wild ideas about hair and wearing certain colors.


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## loved (Aug 26, 2007)

Is there a good reason to kick some1 out of a funeral or a church service? If so, what are they?


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## star (Aug 26, 2007)

Country Churches do not play that at all. These are usually very old time and older ministers. In other words they are strickly Bible that's it.


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## Shimmie (Aug 26, 2007)

loved said:


> Is there a good reason to kick some1 out of a funeral or a church service? If so, what are they?


None other than if the person(s) are out of order, causing a scene, a distraction or being a threat or harm to someone. Just because it's a Church doesn't give licence to 'anything goes.' There must be order and respect for the House of God.

It would be the same as in any public or private venue such as a theater, restaurant, public/private meeting, air/land transportation, etc. There are some things that are just plain out of order in any venue and must be eliminated. 

I do not feel the man should have been 'kicked' out of the service. I truly believe that it was cruel. I would have allowed him to stay. 

However, I do have a question about this Transvestite's behavior when he entered the service. Did he make a show of himself openly? I've seen some 'acts' by some who were really off the wall bringing unnecessary attention to themselves. 

I truly believe that Dermaine was not 'quiet' and made himself quite obvious...most Trannies DO flaunt. 

It's the pattern of their behavior...'flaunting' and not being shy about it. They over-exagerate every movement...more so than a normal woman. AND this would 'throw' off a Pastor or anyone else who was not 'ready' for it. Come on, it's shocking and it does catch 90% of us off guard.    

Now, I have seen people removed from church services who were unable to 'control' themselves. Especially during Campmeetings and Revival Services where the annointing is very high for Salvation and Deliverence. 

And the ones removed *were not* gay/tranvestites/or of another culture. But women who were just too loud and out of order; making themselves too obvious and diliberately disturbing the service. 

*They needed to be put out.  *I'm not being cruel here either. These were women who knew exactly what they were doing and would not stop when politely asked to do so. They proceeded to get louder and more abrasive and just plain obnoxious. 

Of course much of it was a demon spirit and many times witches were in the services to cause undo distractions from the word...I've seen all sorts of behaviour in Churches and it wasn't the Holy Ghost operating in them either.  

These persons were assigned by satan to create a deliberate distraction in the services to PREVENT, HINDER, or ABORT the move of God in the lives of those who needed it (meaning those being delivered were gays, transvestites, drug addicts, abusers, etc.).  For at the very moment a person is about to receive their deliverance the enemy is set to block it.

So in answer to your question, there are some reasons to put someone out of a Church. Just because we serve Jesus doesn't mean we have to tolerate insubordination or rudeness in services. There is still order and order needs to be respected.


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## kbragg (Aug 27, 2007)

SummerRain said:


> I couldn't find a clear image...but this looks like a strapless tube type dress to me, I HOPE someone wouldn't wear something like that to a funeral!! This is a straight up and down club dress! lol


 
UH UH! He/she got the boobie peep hole in the middle and everything! That's a straight up "freakum dress"

I wonder what his hair regimen is....


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## Shimmie (Aug 27, 2007)

kbragg said:


> UH UH! He/she got the boobie peep hole in the middle and everything! That's a straight up "freakum dress"
> 
> I wonder what his hair regimen is....


 You are so wrong...   I read your 'endnote' written in white...

Anyway,  to you, angel.


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## imsovain (Aug 28, 2007)

The nephew was disrespectful of his family and their faith. His sexuality is his own business. If I went to a mosque in a low cut dress or pantsuit they would be right to demand that I cover up, change or leave.


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## kbragg (Aug 28, 2007)

imsovain said:


> The nephew was disrespectful of his family and their faith. His sexuality is his own business. *If I went to a mosque in a low cut dress or pantsuit they would be right to demand that I cover up, change or leave.*


 
C'mon, aren't you being a little inacurate? He'd get a straight up beat down!One thing I do respect abou Muslims is they don't "play with" God like some Christians do You would not find in many Mosque's (there one right down the block from me) or maybe in ANY mosque, tranny's in dresses, women wearing all kinds of cleavage out with no "bounce control" (anyone who's been in church longer than 10 minutes KNOWS what I'm talking about), couples shacking up "playin' marriage" yet everyone is ok with it and even throws them a baby shower when she gets knocked up, ministers getting away with sleeping with little boys or other men's wives etc. (people whine about church discipline and churches actually having a STANDARD, try that mess in a Mosque and see how far you go!) Maybe we as Christians could learn something from them as far as that goes. Seriously, some churches have taken being saved by grace and having liberty in Christ as a license to sin and live loosely. Instead of respecting and being covered by the blood of Christ, many Christians trample it under their feet. Sad.

ETA: Girl why can't I read today!?I though you said "if HE" and not "if I." My bad! So my comment above is address to my mental typo


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## foxxymami (Aug 30, 2007)

ohh goodness....i'm just now seeing this thread.  This is about 10 minutes away from my house (I don't watch the news very much)


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## remnant (Aug 30, 2007)

JewelleNY said:


> *Doesn't God say to come as you are? Maybe that man would have been touched by God that day, it isn't up to the minister to judge, I think churches are too condemning, how do you reach people when you turn them away, I thought only God had that power *


 

Sooo true.


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## betteron2day (Aug 30, 2007)

I agree with kbragg and Enchantment. Nothing more to add.


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