# Can we have a discussion on the Significance of Passover in Christianity?



## PinkPebbles (Mar 26, 2009)

For the past few weeks Pastor T.D. Jakes and Paula White has been talking about the significance of Passover in the Christian religion. I always looked at Passover as a Jewish holiday but I recently learned that it has underlying spiritual meaning in the Christian faith.

From my understanding, the angel of death was going to smite the first born in the land of Egypt both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt so that the God of the Israelites can execute judgment and show that He is Lord. (Exodus 12:12).

The Israelites were asked to roast a lamb and take the lamb's blood and post it agaisnt their house door post, so that the angel of death can passover their household.

This is significant to Christians because the blood of the lamb represents what Jesus did on the cross. He was blameless, without any sin or spot. It's the same way God told the Israelites to get a lamb without a blemish....Exodus 12:5 - "Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year; you shall take it from the sheep or the goats."  Exodus 12:13 - "The blood shall be for a token, a sign to you upon the door posts of the houses where you are. When I see the blood, I will pass over you and no plague shall be upon you to destroy you when I smite the land of Egypt. You shall keep it as a feast to the Lord throughout your generations, keep it as an ordinance forever."

As a result of my understanding, when I pray and declare that I'm covered with the blood of Jesus, it's like God is protecting me and allowing things to pass over me like He did for the Israelites.

My question to you ladies - have your Pastor talked about the significance of Passover? What have you learned from it?


----------



## Almaz (Mar 26, 2009)

The Last Supper was Passover. Or in Hebrew Pesach.


----------



## BeautifulFlower (Mar 26, 2009)

Is this the same as Communion? 

I neglected it for years but I am recently making sure I go to church at night (when its served) and participate in this lengthy process. Its served on the 4th Sunday of every month. 

Many people asked my pastor, why does he not do it at the other services during the day. His responses was this process it too precious to be rushed and participating in it requires a right heart and mind. Many unbelievers attend the 8am, 10am, and 12p services and them participating in this will eat and drink judgement unto themselves. If you are consciously taking the time out of your Sunday evening to participate, it is expected that you know why you are participating. Of course he talks about all of this before we get started. 

1 Corinthians 11: 17 - 33

*Conduct at the Lord’s Supper*

17 Now in giving these instructions I do not praise you, since you come together not for the better but for the worse. 18 For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. 19 For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you. 20 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper. 21 For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you.

*Institution of the Lord’s Supper*

23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat;* this is My body which is broken[c] for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” 
26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.

Examine Yourself

27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood[d] of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner[e] eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s[f] body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world. 
33 Therefore, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34 But if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, lest you come together for judgment. And the rest I will set in order when I come.*


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 26, 2009)

The passover was a sign of things to come, of how the Father intended to sacrifice His only begotten Son Jesus for the remission of our sins.

Jesus represents the ram in the bush that was sacrificed in the place of Isaac and Aarons scapegoat. The passover's spreading of the blood over the mantle was a precursor to Jesus' sacrifice on the cross and His spreading of His blood over the mantle of our hearts. His blood covers us as death approaches and takes away it's sting and victory.

There are other Passover similarities between the OT passover and Jesus' passover.


----------



## PinkPebbles (Mar 26, 2009)

Thanks ladies for your responses!

What intrigued me is the Jewish Passover that is in Exodus 12 that is celebrated on April 8th. (I hope that I didn't get the date wrong).

What God did for the Israelites in Exodus ( the sacrificial lamb), I realized that He did the same thing on the Cross with Jesus.


----------



## msa (Mar 26, 2009)

At my church we don't celebrate "Easter"...but we do have passover service and a resurrection service. Then again, we also use the Hebrew names (Yeshua instead of Jesus, etc.) and Hebrew studies.


----------



## PinkPebbles (Mar 26, 2009)

msa said:


> At my church we don't celebrate "Easter"...but we do have passover service and a resurrection service. Then again, we also use the Hebrew names (Yeshua instead of Jesus, etc.) and Hebrew studies.


 
MSA - If you don't mind me asking, what is your denomination?


----------



## msa (Mar 26, 2009)

PinkPebbles said:


> MSA - If you don't mind me asking, what is your denomination?




We're actually nondenominational. My church is bible based and my Pastor believes that you can't truly understand the bible unless you look at the Hebrew and Greek versions because the meanings are so different. Since we're committed to study, our services are like school lol...everyone has out their bibles, and Strong's, Hebrew translations, etc. And we also have Hebrew classes every week and the 1st Sunday of the month. The kids are also taught Hebrew in Sunday School.


----------



## PinkPebbles (Mar 26, 2009)

msa said:


> We're actually nondenominational. My church is bible based and my Pastor believes that you can't truly understand the bible unless you look at the Hebrew and Greek versions because the meanings are so different. Since we're committed to study, our services are like school lol...everyone has out their bibles, and Strong's, Hebrew translations, etc. And we also have Hebrew classes every week and the 1st Sunday of the month. The kids are also taught Hebrew in Sunday School.


 
Thanks for your response. Also, you said that you don't celebrate "Easter" but isn't Easter the celebration of the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord, Jesus Christ? Or is it that you prefer to call it "Resurrection Service?"


----------



## msa (Mar 26, 2009)

PinkPebbles said:


> Thanks for your response. Also, you said that you don't celebrate "Easter" but isn't Easter the celebration of the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord, Jesus Christ? Or is it that you prefer to call it "Resurrection Service?"




Well we don't celebrate Easter because that's a made up holiday. We have Passover service (during the week, whenever the first day of Passover is), and then we have Resurrection service that Sunday. Sometimes that falls on "Easter" and sometimes it doesn't, so that's why I said we don't celebrate "Easter". This is the first time I'll be home for it in like 5 years so I'll try to remind myself to come back and talk more about it after it happens.


----------



## PinkPebbles (Mar 26, 2009)

msa said:


> Well we don't celebrate Easter because that's a made up holiday. We have Passover service (during the week, whenever the first day of Passover is), and then *we have Resurrection service that Sunday. Sometimes that falls on "Easter" and sometimes it doesn't, so that's why I said we don't celebrate "Easter".* This is the first time I'll be home for it in like 5 years so I'll try to remind myself to come back and talk more about it after it happens.


 
Ok, I understand now. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## PinkPebbles (Mar 26, 2009)

MSA post made me dig deeper and I came across a couple of online articles. I had no idea about the origins of "Easter" .

I copied and paste below yahooanswers because it was well written.( Didn't want to paraphrase and mess it up.)

*************************************************
Christ was of the tribe of Judah and Levi, hence king and high priest.

EASTER A BRIEF HISTORY

The name “Easter” comes to America from Ostera or Eostre, the Anglo-Saxon goddess of spring. The origin goes back to 2000 BC in Babylonia honoring the goddess of spring Ishtar. Ishtar the mother/wife of their god Tammuz brought him back from the underworld. In Phoenecia she became Astarte, in Greece Eostre, and in Germany Ostara. Consider also a Phrygian honoring Attis and Cybele or a heretic Israelite honoring the Canaanite Baal and Ashtoreth. All of these are fertility celebrations of death and resurrection.

EASTER IN THE KING JAMES

The word “Easter” occurs in the King James Bible ONE TIME and is mistranslated. It should be translated PASSOVER.

Acts 12:4 And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people. 

Easter G3957 pascha (pas'-khah) Of Chaldee origin (compare [H6453]); the Passover (the meal, the day, the festival or the special sacrifices connected with it): - Easter, Passover.

H6453 pesach (peh'-sakh) From H6452; a pretermission, that is, exemption; used only technically of the Jewish Passover (the festival or the victim): - passover (offering).

H6452 pasach (paw-sakh') A primitive root; to hop, that is, (figuratively) skip over (or spare); by implication to hesitate; also (literally) to limp, to dance: - halt, become lame, leap, pass over.

THE ORIGINAL PASSOVER A SHADOW

Exo.12:23 For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when He seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you. Exo.12:24 And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever. Exo.12:25 And it shall come to pass, when ye be come to the land which the LORD will give you, according as He hath promised, that ye shall keep this service. Exo.12:26 And it shall come to pass, when your children shall say unto you, What mean ye by this service? Exo.12:27 That ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of the LORD'S Passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when He smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshipped. 

What did it say in Exo.12:26? What mean ye by this service?

What did it say in Exo.12:27? It is the SACRIFICE of the LORD'S Passover.

This was a shadow, that is a silhouette or likeness, of Christ’s crucifixion. Israel was in bondage to the Egyptians. We were in bondage to sin.

CHRIST OUR PASSOVER

I Cor.5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? I Cor.5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us: I Cor.5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 

Christ our Passover is SACRIFICED for us.

As with most Christian holidays, Easter has been secularized and commercialized. We have Easter bunnies, eggs, baskets, bonnets, parades and etc. 

Knowing now the origins of Easter, the fallacy of Easter and the sacrifice Christ made for us; I am truly ashamed of myself. We should not be celebrating Easter. We should be celebrating Christ our Passover with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 
*******************************************************


----------



## Almaz (Mar 27, 2009)

It was a Pesach period nothing really different





Ms.Honey said:


> The passover was a sign of things to come, of how the Father intended to sacrifice His only begotten Son Jesus for the remission of our sins.
> 
> Jesus represents the ram in the bush that was sacrificed in the place of Isaac and Aarons scapegoat. The passover's spreading of the blood over the mantle was a precursor to Jesus' sacrifice on the cross and His spreading of His blood over the mantle of our hearts. His blood covers us as death approaches and takes away it's sting and victory.
> 
> There are other Passover similarities between the OT passover and Jesus' passover.


----------



## Crown (Mar 27, 2009)

Almaz said:


> It was a Pesach period nothing really different



For christians, it was a sign of things to come : the sacrifice of JESUS-CHRIST for the remission of our sins.


----------



## Almaz (Mar 28, 2009)

okay that is interesying to know


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 28, 2009)

I haven't studied it out yet but I've always considered this to be the FIRST passover. God sacrificing the animals (sacrificial lambs) in place of Adam and Eve because of their sins and clothing them in the skins (clothing them in His righteousness) He made for them.

*Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.  *




....


----------



## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 28, 2009)

Crown said:


> For christians, it was a sign of things to come : the sacrifice of JESUS-CHRIST for the remission of our sins.


 

As far as Jesus celebrating in some different way, no, it wasn't.  It was Jewish, same old Pesach, Passover.  Jesus was an obedient Jew.  For meanings, yes, christians or that different sect of judaism as it was back in that day, would have seen a new meaning in it.


----------



## Crown (Mar 28, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> As far as Jesus celebrating in some different way, no, it wasn't.  It was Jewish, same old Pesach, Passover.  Jesus was an obedient Jew. * For meanings, yes, christians* or that different sect of judaism as it was back in that day, would have seen a new meaning in it.



I can only speak as a christian! And Yes it was a sign about JESUS-CHRIST.


----------



## divya (Mar 28, 2009)

I believe that Passover deserves deep and extensive study, as does entire ceremonial law/sacrificial system within the Scriptures. It is significant in pointing towards the Messiah. I have yet to study in depth but plan to start soon. 

*1 Corinthians 5:7-8* - _Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. *For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:* Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth._

Praises be to Jesus Christ, our Paschal Lamb. The New Testament refers to Him as the Lamb over 30 times. Passover was fulfilled when Christ gave His life for us. The Lord's Supper is a new covenant ordinance. It looks to the past (Matthew 26:26-28) and to the future.(Matthew 26:29).


----------



## PinkPebbles (Mar 28, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> As far as Jesus celebrating in some different way, no, it wasn't. It was Jewish, same old Pesach, Passover. Jesus was an obedient Jew. For meanings, yes, christians or that different sect of judaism as it was back in that day, would have seen a new meaning in it.


 
GV - I'm going to put what you are saying and what we meant by the remission of sins. Hopefully, this will make sense. You are correct by saying Jesus was celebrating the Jewish passover but it's a twofold outline in *Matthews 26:17-32*

Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto Him, where do You wish us to prepare for You to eat the Passover supper? He said, go into the city to a certain man and say to him, the Master says: My time is near; I will keep the Passover at your house with My disciples. The disciples did as Jesus had directed them and they made ready the Passover supper (Jewish tradition). And as they were eating, He said, solemnly I say to you, one of you will betray Me. They were exceedingly pained and distressed and deeply hurt and sorrowful and began to say to Him one after another, surely it cannot be I, Lord, can it? He replied, he who has just dipped his hand in the same dish with Me will betray Me. The Son of Man is going just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would have been better for that man if he had never been born. Judas, the betrayer said, surely it is not I, is it Master? He said to him, you have stated the fact. 

Now as they were eating, Jesus took the bread and praising God, gave thanks and asked Him to bless it to their use, and when He had broken it, He gave it to the disciples and said, Take, eat; this is My body. And He took a cup and when He had given thanks, He gave it to them saying, drink of it, all of you; For this is My blood of the new testament (covenant), which is being poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.(remission of sins) {Exod. 24:6-8} But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.


----------



## PinkPebbles (Mar 28, 2009)

divya said:


> I believe that Passover deserves deep and extensive study, as does entire ceremonial law/sacrificial system within the Scriptures. It is significant in pointing towards the Messiah. I have yet to study in depth but plan to start soon.
> 
> *1 Corinthians 5:7-8* - _Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. *For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:* Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth._
> 
> Praises be to Jesus Christ, our Paschal Lamb. The New Testament refers to Him as the Lamb over 30 times. Passover was fulfilled when Christ gave His life for us. The Lord's Supper is a new covenant ordinance. It looks to the past (Matthew 26:26-28) and to the future.(Matthew 26:29).


 

Thanks Divya- I was typing Matthew 26 the same time you posted!


----------



## divya (Mar 28, 2009)

PinkPebbles said:


> Thanks Divya- I was typing Matthew 26 the same time you posted!



Yes, thank you for expounding! Those passages are so beautiful...


----------



## divya (Mar 28, 2009)

Wonderful hymn...most appropriate for this discussion.

*Worthy, Worthy Is the Lamb*
http://www.digitalhymnal.org/dhymn.cfm?HymnNumber=246


----------



## PinkPebbles (Mar 28, 2009)

divya said:


> Yes, thank you for expounding! Those passages are so beautiful...


 
Thanks, the Holy Spirit led me to Matthews. I asked the Lord for clarification of what GV was stating. And Matthews helped me to understand more in depth now about the Passover!


----------



## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 28, 2009)

Crown said:


> I can only speak as a christian! And Yes it was a sign about JESUS-CHRIST.


 
Did I say any different?  Some have asked what the difference in the Last Supper was.  It was Pesach, a Jewish mandate.   Jesus, a Jews,  lent new meanings toward it.  That's all.  I didn't contradict you.  I was expounding from  Almaz.

I wonder how many have looked at an Haggadah?  You can find them online and study comparison.  It'll give you an idea how Pesach is put together.

http://judaism.about.com/b/2008/03/30/online-family-haggadah.htm
http://www.chabad.org/holidays/passover/pesach_cdo/aid/1735/jewish/The-Haggadah.htm

It's kind long but this is the service of the Pesach.  This is just to give a meaning of Pesach that you are not quite finding in the New Testament.  It was written to Jews, people would have known about Passover.  So, for those who don't know, it's good to look at the original texts...you'll find many great surprises.







Disclaimer:  No, I'm not trying to lead anyone anywhere else.  If I wish to know something, I go to the source and study it.  Theologians do it all the time.


----------



## PinkPebbles (Mar 28, 2009)

Crown said:


> I can only speak as a christian! And Yes it was a sign about JESUS-CHRIST.


 
Thank you. When I think about the cost Jesus endured for us....how he died on the cross...I can weep because it was such a dear price. He agonized in Gethsemane....

Matthews 26:37-38 And Jesus took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. Then he said unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death. Stay here and keep awake and keep watch with Me.

Matthews 26:39 And He went a little farther and fell on his face, prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Matthews 26:42 He went away again the second time and prayed saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

Matthews 26:55 In the same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, have you come out with swords and staves as you would against a robber to capture Me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and you laid no hold on me. But all this was done that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him and fled.


----------



## Almaz (Mar 28, 2009)

Well I can't wait for Pesach on of my favourite holidays. Succot is one also


----------



## PinkPebbles (Mar 28, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Well I can't wait for Pesach on of my favourite holidays. Succot is one also


 
Great! I really look forward to Passover and Resurrection Sunday! God is so good...thank you Jesus!


----------



## Almaz (Mar 28, 2009)

Oh Cool do you celebrate Pesach also? How do you get ready?





PinkPebbles said:


> Great! I really look forward to Passover and Resurrection Sunday! God is so good...thank you Jesus!


----------



## PinkPebbles (Mar 28, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Oh Cool *do you celebrate Pesach* also? How do you get ready?


 
I (my church) celebrate the Passover that's in the New Testament the one I explained in Matthews!  It's also known to be "communion" as well on first sundays of the month at my church.

However, it was a pleasure talking about the roots of the Passover....

Well, I'm about to log off now...enjoy the rest of your weekend!


----------



## Almaz (Mar 28, 2009)

Communion, Passover ummm okay


----------



## PinkPebbles (Mar 28, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Communion, Passover ummm okay


 
Yep! Remission of sins for us Christians!

Good-night dear..."I'm making room for Jesus"


----------



## Almaz (Mar 28, 2009)

Well I am doing what Jesus did when I prepare for passover and it was very nice discusing with you too. 

NITE -NITE SWEETIE. 

I am making from for G-d


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 28, 2009)

We have our own traditions and are not under the legalistic ceremonies of the Jews. That's why we are Christians and not Jews, lol 

If we wanted to follow the ways of the Jews then we would have coverted to Judaism. Jesus' passover is different because of what HE prayed, taught, said to and did with His disciples that Passover. We use the passover that Jesus presented to His disciples as our guide. I don't understand why that's so hard to understand.

We are under a NEW covenant.


----------



## Almaz (Mar 28, 2009)

NO HONEY IT AIN"T hard to understand. Oh I understand COMPLETELY where you are coming from. I said it was nice discussing this. 

OKAY. 

Thank you 







Ms.Honey said:


> We have our own traditions and are not under the legalistic ceremonies of the Jews. That's why we are Christians and not Jews, lol
> 
> If we wanted to follow the ways of the Jews then we would have coverted to Judaism. Jesus' passover is different because of what HE prayed, taught, said to and did with His disciples that Passover. We use the passover that Jesus presented to His disciples as our guide. I don't understand why that's so hard to understand.
> 
> We are under a NEW covenant.


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 28, 2009)

Almaz said:


> NO HONEY IT AIN"T hard to understand. Oh I understand COMPLETELY where you are coming from. I said it was nice discussing this.
> 
> OKAY.
> 
> Thank you


 
You're welcome.


----------



## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 28, 2009)

Oh boy, when someone asks what is the meaning of the Passover Jesus celebrated and someone explains that it is simply Jewish, people feel attacked in some kind of way.  It's not necessary at all.  Please lighten up.  Like it or not, Judaism is the root of christianity.  The Passover Jesus celebrated was the same as celebrated todayand Jesus was Jewish, not gentile.  If you don't know what is a Pesach celebration/service, then you will not see those "roots" as they exist.   It's not necessary to attack someone with "I'm a christian" attitude and I know G-d and you do not."  It's not true in the first place.  _None of us individuals on earth are more important nor more loved than any other on this earth.  We are all equally loved...I thought that was evident in the scriptures.  Then why don't we act as though it's true?  _

What I hate to see over and over again here is the prejudiced intolerance.  Why ask about something in the bible, not realizing that all those apostles and early believers were JEWS, someone explains it's a Jewish holiday, then get a crusty attitude about it.  You are certainly not being attacked...please, be assured.  Someone is trying to explain something about it those holidays that Jesus and the Jewish apostles practiced.  You'd think that a Judeo-christian forum like this would be open enough to include a Jew in its midst without conflict.  I AM ASHAMED!!

What I had come back here to say initially before reading that exchange was... that a very visible element of the christian Pesach is that which is carried on in the orthodox and catholic churches, that of the sacrifice of the Mass.  The Pesach is more evident.  I guess one could attempt to study that on their own.  It has to do with the sacrifice, the wine, the bread...all present elements...but they are transubstantiated and if one comprehends the Pesach as Jesus' body and blood, then that is what the Eastern and Western Church practices and teaches. No, one doesn't have to be of that sect to comprehend Passover as it relates to christianity.  But being aware of the very deep meanings of Pesach, the Eucharist as it is transubstantiated and how the church (whichever sect) carries out elements of it weekly (in the case of the East and West Church, every Mass, even during the week), the most deep and beautiful understandings will flower right before your eyes.


----------



## Almaz (Mar 28, 2009)

Communion /mass. Some people like the Catholics go everyday and some of my Baptist friends go like once a month its really interesting how religion evolves and what changes take place where and why people worship the way that they do. Very interesting and informative


----------



## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 28, 2009)

Pastor in Alabama trying to get the word out about Passover and it's wonderful, spiritual meaning and teaching for all ages and people, practically.  

Quote: _ "Somerville's efforts have been misunderstood by both Christians and Jews, he said. Christ Our Passover was described as part of the trend of evangelical Christian interest in Jews and Israel in a recent story in The Forward, a New York-based Jewish newspaper that used to be published in Yiddish. The headline for that story, posted at www.forward.com, reads, in part, "Evangelicals misappropriating Passover." 

"Some Christians think I'm a Judaizing apostate," Somerville said Tuesday night as he led the Passover demonstration at a service attended by about 900 in the Von Braun's North Hall. "And some Jews think I'm attempting to hijack their faith." 

Neither is true, he said. What he's trying to do is to understand his own faith in a deeper way. 

Jews have been celebrating Passover for 3,800 years, and they have yet to exhaust the lessons of the symbolic meal, Somerville said. And Christians have much to learn by observing the ancient seder, designed to teach spiritual truths in a concrete way. 

"Judaism does not need Christianity to explain its existence, but Christianity needs Judaism," Somerville said. "The early church fathers tried to erase anything that seemed Jewish from the Christian church. We may have Jesus, but I believe the Christian church needs an education." _

http://www.awarenessministry.org/  for full newspaper article

I am in no way affiliated with this ministry but I do attend Passover and/or hold it, the Jewish one, in our home. LIke I said before, our family is multi-cultural and we celebrate the Jewish holidays because Jews and Jewishly-descended are in the immediate family.  One thing is for sure, when a Jew opens his home to a non-Jew, he is opening his heart in the way that G-d is opening His heart for him.  Passover is a beautiful thing and we can learn from each other and be tolerant and respectful without feeling compromised of faith - goes both ways.  G-d bless.


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 28, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Oh boy, when someone asks what is the meaning of the Passover Jesus celebrated and someone explains that it is simply Jewish, people feel attacked in some kind of way. It's not necessary at all. Please lighten up. Like it or not, Judaism is the root of christianity. The Passover Jesus celebrated was the same as celebrated todayand Jesus was Jewish, not gentile. If you don't know what is a Pesach celebration/service, then you will not see those "roots" as they exist. It's not necessary to attack someone with "I'm a christian" attitude and I know G-d and you do not." It's not true in the first place. _None of us individuals on earth are more important nor more loved than any other on this earth. We are all equally loved...I thought that was evident in the scriptures. Then why don't we act as though it's true? _
> 
> What I hate to see over and over again here is the prejudiced intolerance. Why ask about something in the bible, not realizing that all those apostles and early believers were JEWS, someone explains it's a Jewish holiday, then get a crusty attitude about it. You are certainly not being attacked...please, be assured. Someone is trying to explain something about it those holidays that Jesus and the Jewish apostles practiced. You'd think that a Judeo-christian forum like this would be open enough to include a Jew in its midst without conflict. I AM ASHAMED!!
> 
> What I had come back here to say initially before reading that exchange was... that a very visible element of the christian Pesach is that which is carried on in the orthodox and catholic churches, that of the sacrifice of the Mass. The Pesach is more evident. I guess one could attempt to study that on their own. It has to do with the sacrifice, the wine, the bread...all present elements...but they are transubstantiated and if one comprehends the Pesach as Jesus' body and blood, then that is what the Eastern and Western Church practices and teaches. No, one doesn't have to be of that sect to comprehend Passover as it relates to christianity. But being aware of the very deep meanings of Pesach, the Eucharist as it is transubstantiated and how the church (whichever sect) carries out elements of it weekly (in the case of the East and West Church, every Mass, even during the week), the most deep and beautiful understandings will flower right before your eyes.


 
Why would you be ashamed? Are you a Christian? It was her, "Passover, communion ummm ok" and "It was a peshach period nothing different"  comments that made it more than someone wanting to "share". When Jews want to post without the snarky comments then maybe they would be received better. Everything is not prejudice and intolerance when you provoke. Don't provoke folks and then cry victim.

WHYYYYYYY do you think we don't know that the first Christians were Jews?????? Why do you believe that we don't know the origins of OUR Passover? You are very presumptuous. You continue saying that the Jews did this, the early church did that no matter how many times we say we know that already as if you don't read it. We know our history, thank you. 

While it is something that is *NICE* to know, knowing the ways the Jews practiced and now practice Passover (and all Jews don't practice it the same BTW) is not going to get anyone a step closer to Jesus. I researched different things and enjoyed reading about them but if some don't want to they don't have too. It is not required for salvation or to live a holy Christian life.

 Jesus died a Jew but was NOT living as a Jew when He rose from the dead. He did not live by the law anymore because HE FULFILLED THE LAW. He gave us a New Covenant. We do things OUR way not the way the Jews do it. We are not under the legalistic practices of the Jews because Jesus made us free from all of that. Where the spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

2Cr 3:17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 28, 2009)

Ours is different and is spiritual. The Jewish Passover was natural and a precursor to the sacrifice of Jesus the Messiah.

Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed [it], and brake [it], and gave [it] to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.  

Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;  

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.  

Mat 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.  

Mat 26:30 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.


----------



## discobiscuits (Mar 28, 2009)

msa said:


> We're actually nondenominational. My church is bible based and my Pastor believes that you can't truly understand the bible unless you look at the Hebrew and Greek versions because the meanings are so different. Since we're committed to study, our services are like school lol...everyone has out their bibles, and Strong's, Hebrew translations, etc. And we also have Hebrew classes every week and the 1st Sunday of the month. The kids are also taught Hebrew in Sunday School.




OffT: I like teaching churches. Yours sounds like one I'd visit. Okay, back OnT.


----------



## Almaz (Mar 28, 2009)

SNARKY I was not being SNARKY. MY dear I think you got it wrong.  YOU are obtuese and I was not being snarky.

Please refrain from saying such things. I would never call you that or imply anything of the sort. 







Ms.Honey said:


> Why would you be ashamed? Are you a Christian? It was her, "Passover, communion ummm ok" and "It was a peshach period nothing different" comments that made it more than someone wanting to "share". When Jews want to post without the snarky comments then maybe they would be received better. Everything is not prejudice and intolerance when you provoke. Don't provoke folks and then cry victim.
> 
> WHYYYYYYY do you think we don't know that the first Christians were Jews?????? Why do you believe that we don't know the origins of OUR Passover? You are very presumptuous. You continue saying that the Jews did this, the early church did that no matter how many times we say we know that already as if you don't read it. We know our history, thank you.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 29, 2009)

Almaz said:


> SNARKY I was not being SNARKY. MY dear I think you got it wrong. YOU are obtuese and I was not being snarky.
> 
> Please refrain from saying such things. I would never call you that or imply anything of the sort.


 

But in the same breath you call me obtuse? Whatever


----------



## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 29, 2009)

All men belong to the same G-d.  The only One over earth and sky.  The One who created all things.  When we begin to realize that we are all related, then we will be able to hear Him well.


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 29, 2009)

Jesus is God. All men do not believe that and because all men do not believe that we all can NOT hear Him well.

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:* no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.  *

Rev 1:8 I am (Jesus)*Alpha and Omega*, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the *Almighty*.  

Exd 3:13 And Moses said unto God, *Behold, [when] I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What [is] his name? what shall I say unto them?  *

Exd 3:14 *And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM*: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, *I AM *hath sent me unto you.  

Jhn 8:58 *Jesus* said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, *I am.  *


----------



## Almaz (Mar 29, 2009)

Yeah because you are. Plan and simple. No one was trying to be snarky with anyone. But you always seem to call people names and imply stuff

Please refrain. I respect your beliefs. Okay. 




Ms.Honey said:


> But in the same breath you call me obtuse? Whatever


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 29, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Yeah because you are. Plan and simple. No one was trying to be snarky with anyone. But you always seem to call people names and imply stuff
> 
> Please refrain. I respect your beliefs. Okay.


 
Snarky is not calling YOU a name, snarky describes your ATTITUDE. Obtuse is an insult. YOU refrain from name calling.


----------



## Crackers Phinn (Mar 29, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Like it or not, Judaism is the root of christianity.



NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Matthew was a Jew and regardless of what happened/was said during the last supper, they all (including Jesus) entered the tent observing a Jewish holiday. What they decided to make of it after a fact is part of Christianity, but that does not change the origin of the celebration.

I have done a lot of reading and I've never come across the Christian perspective that the actual lamb that the priests slaughtered in Exodus to mark the homes of the Hebrews  is considered the transubstantiation of Jesus.  So the tone of this discussion is interesting cuz it seems to be arguing a point that Christian theology doesn't usually make.


----------



## Almaz (Mar 29, 2009)

Snarky IS an Insult. 

I would have never have called you that in a milliion years.  Keep those comments to yourself. 



Ms.Honey said:


> Snarky is not calling YOU a name, snarky describes your ATTITUDE. Obtuse is an insult. YOU refrain from name calling.


----------



## Almaz (Mar 29, 2009)

Okay I know this I am going to let it go.





GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> All men belong to the same G-d. The only One over earth and sky. The One who created all things. When we begin to realize that we are all related, then we will be able to hear Him well.


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 29, 2009)

The *NEW* Testament begins with the sacrifice of Jesus. Everything before that was done according to OT law and traditions. Everything after is the liberty of Jesus the Messiah. A testament must be confirmed in blood.

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.  

1Cr 11:25 After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me.  

2Cr 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.  

2Cr 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.  

*All of the book of Hebrews*

Hbr 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a *better* testament.  

Hbr 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.  

Hbr 9:16 For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.  

Hbr 9:17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.  

Hbr 9:18 Whereupon neither the first [testament] was dedicated without blood.  

Hbr 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,  

Hbr 9:20 Saying, This [is] the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.  

Hbr 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

Hbr 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 29, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Snarky IS an Insult.
> 
> I would have never have called you that in a milliion years. Keep those comments to yourself.


 
IT IS NOT. And you keep yours and the tude to yourself.


----------



## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 29, 2009)

JCoily said:


> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> Matthew was a Jew and regardless of what happened/was said during the last supper, they all (including Jesus) entered the tent observing a Jewish holiday. What they decided to make of it after a fact is part of Christianity, but that does not change the origin of the celebration.
> ...


 
In the first church, it does.  Without the transubstantiation, there is no Mass, there is no communion or eucharistic celebration...thanksgiving.  Without slaughtering, there is no blood and marked flesh.  For christians, going back to the Pesach, they recognize the lamb of sacrifice as Jesus.  That's why I put it that way.  It's been taught for at least 2,000 years, give or take a council or two lolol!  That's why I said that folks who truly wanted to comprehend why they do what they do need to go to the source...including those of latter christian sects who are largely unaware of the deep significance.

BTW, lurve that hair!!! Thank you for your comments.  I think that people can learn to see their roots and appreciate them without compromise of faith or belief.  All too often,we shut each other out in such a way that we begin to despise one another.  Jesus was Jewish, so was Mary and Joseph, so was the country they lived in and so forth and so forth.  So was the first church.   And about Pesach not being spiritual.....  That is so waaaay beyond a falsehood, it's seriously not at all funny to laugh at that statement.  Oy va voy...G-d forbid the thought and the words.  Pesach is SERIOUS and seriously spiritual and is still commanded for Jews.   My goodness.  That's why I gave those online haggadot to peruse.  

This is not the way of the Creator. Y'all having me channel Lakota holy men and such .  I'm up here singing songs to heal the earth lol.


----------



## Almaz (Mar 29, 2009)

I  politely ask you to refrain I am going to let it go. 






Ms.Honey said:


> IT IS NOT. And you keep yours and the tude to yourself.


----------



## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 29, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Okay I know this I am going to let it go.


 

And you absolutely know and love the Torah given from HaShem...and He knows you love Him too.  The tree of life, the word given from G-d...and I know you know it is eternal...amein.  If all people could learn to love that fact.  I know I'm not saying that people should convert to anything...but if one wishes to know deeper  meanings, one should view this whole biblical story from Genesis to Revelations, the entire story, set in it's own "mise en scene." I know and love you mamiye.


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 29, 2009)

Almaz said:


> I politely ask you to refrain I am going to let it go.


 
Yes, please let it go.


----------



## Almaz (Mar 29, 2009)

Thank you I know you too and I love you very much. I am glad that you are a part of my family.





GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> And you absolutely know and love the Torah given from HaShem...and He knows you love Him too. The tree of life, the word given from G-d...and I know you know it is eternal...amein. If all people could learn to love that fact. I know I'm not saying that people should convert to anything...but if one wishes to know deeper meanings, one should view this whole biblical story from Genesis to Revelations, the entire story, set in it's own "mise en scene." I know and love you mamiye.


----------



## Almaz (Mar 29, 2009)

Again I cannot wait for Pesach and all the spirtuality and rituals and seeing family and everything that is involved in the preparations of it. It is a wonderful time of year.


----------



## divya (Mar 29, 2009)

JCoily said:


> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> Matthew was a Jew and regardless of what happened/was said during the last supper, they all (including Jesus) entered the tent observing a Jewish holiday. What they decided to make of it after a fact is part of Christianity, but that does not change the origin of the celebration.
> ...



Interesting. I belong to branch of the Christian faith that recognizes the sacrificial/ceremonial system as pointing to Christ as the Paschal Lamb. The meaning of all of these things, including the holy days, are deeply studied.  The lamb slaughtered in Exodus is believed to be representative of Christ, but is not considered a transubstantiation. Christian theology is quite vast, so one can do much reading and still not reach all the beliefs. 

We understand the Passover is Jewish, but we consider it all part of a greater plan - God's plan of salvation.


----------



## Almaz (Mar 29, 2009)

Thank you Divya. As I said earlier it is very interesing how religions evolve. 

Thank you


----------



## Ms.Honey (Mar 29, 2009)

1Cr 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. *For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us*:  

1Cr 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened [bread] of sincerity and truth.


----------



## Almaz (Mar 29, 2009)

Been casting out levened all night cleaning up for Pesach is a daunting task. But again iti is one of my favourite holidays.  Last year we had an interfaith seder at my family's house in NJ. We even made a Haggadah for the AA's because of the Freedom from Slavery in this country. It turned out excellent.


----------



## divya (Mar 29, 2009)

Somewhat on topic...

Is anyone familiar with those branches of Christianity that believe in transubstantiation? 

I am aware of only Catholicism, as it is within the catechism. Some Anglicans are said to believe in it as well. Any others?


----------



## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 29, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Been casting out levened all night cleaning up for Pesach is a daunting task. But again iti is one of my favourite holidays. Last year we had an interfaith seder at my family's house in NJ. We even made a Haggadah for the AA's because of the Freedom from Slavery in this country. It turned out excellent.


 

LOLOL.  Mordechai!!!!!  That was so precious.  He actually thought he was in a play!  And Maria perfecting the Brooklynese accent lolol!  It was a riot. Marty asking me, "what is that, a Hindu accent????"  LOLOL.   Lovely seder, full of Jews, 1/2 Jews, christians, and whatnot.  It was a good time where all came together to celebrate freedom.  This was one of the great times of my life.


----------



## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 29, 2009)

divya said:


> Somewhat on topic...
> 
> Is anyone familiar with those branches of Christianity that believe in transubstantiation?
> 
> I am aware of only Catholicism, as it is within the catechism. Some Anglicans are said to believe in it as well. Any others?


 

The Eastern Catholic churches, Orthodox, Armenian etc.  All believe in the transubstantiation.  Of course, these are ancient churches.  And there is a movement to reunify the Anglicans soon although I'm not sure when.


----------



## Almaz (Mar 29, 2009)

Mine too it was so great to see all the family and friends together. That was on of the happiest times also seeing everyone on the same continent in the same country in the same state the same city and the same house at the same time. I never thought it was going to happen like that. It was like being back home seeing the family together. You looked fabulous your hair is getting long and your children are as beautiful well mannered and well behaved as always. They are great children and very smart. Already speaking Spanish, French and Hebrew and actually learning some Amharic too. They are very happy and well adjusted kids. They are all on the honour roll.  THEY REALLY had a good time all the kids. Who knows Shalom may get into Princeton and if she does our Uncle Ephraim Isaac can look out for her. I see a future linquist Ph'd in the family.

 I heard them singing Hebrew songs in the car. 

WE HAVE to try and do this again not this year but maybe the next. Mo and Vickie are talking about spending Pesach in Israel next year. Maybe we can do this too. 

Happy Guy Mordechai was a hoot





GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> LOLOL. Mordechai!!!!! That was so precious. He actually thought he was in a play! And Maria perfecting the Brooklynese accent lolol! It was a riot. Marty asking me, "what is that, a Hindu accent????" LOLOL. Lovely seder, full of Jews, 1/2 Jews, christians, and whatnot. It was a good time where all came together to celebrate freedom. This was one of the great times of my life.


----------



## Almaz (Mar 29, 2009)

Actually all the Eastern Orthodox( Russian, other Eastern European, Chaldean, Assyrian, Medean Ethiopian, Eritean, Egyptian copts, and Menorite from Lebanon, Syria some part of Iran believe in transubstantiation. They are Ancient Churches. Some Anglicans do believe and they are trying to unify with the Eastern Churches but it is not happening right now






divya said:


> Somewhat on topic...
> 
> Is anyone familiar with those branches of Christianity that believe in transubstantiation?
> 
> I am aware of only Catholicism, as it is within the catechism. Some Anglicans are said to believe in it as well. Any others?


----------



## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 29, 2009)

divya said:


> Somewhat on topic...
> 
> Is anyone familiar with those branches of Christianity that believe in transubstantiation?
> 
> I am aware of only Catholicism, as it is within the catechism. Some Anglicans are said to believe in it as well. Any others?


 

I left out many but also coming to mind, Chaldeans and Assyrians who speak Aramaic, Ethiopian Orthodox, all the eastern and western apostolic churches whether they recognize Rome as the Holy Seat or not.  

Here's a link giving a concise info on the elements of the seder.   For those in these churches, when Jesus held up the bread (as is done in Mass, it's consecrated to become the actual flesh of Jesus...wine, in the same manner), and told them "this is my body shed for thee,"  "this is my blood of the new convenant, which will be shed for many"....that is the transubstantiation.  

The Passover drinking of the cups of wine, breaking of the matza in three, hiding the covered afikommen (broken matzoh) etc.  That's why I said the paschal or pasha lamb is the wine and blood in actuality in those traditions.  The High Mass or the Sacrifice of the Mass is an actual ritual sacrifice...it's not just some prayers...it's an actual priestly sacrifice.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but the killing of the lamb and the roasting of it in Passover, is a sacrifice and it reminds of Abraham and Isaac...many levels of meaning.  

We've had many supernatural events occur at Passover.  I can tell you!!!


----------



## divya (Mar 29, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> The Eastern Catholic churches, Orthodox, Armenian etc.  All believe in the transubstantiation.  Of course, these are ancient churches.  And there is a movement to reunify the Anglicans soon although I'm not sure when.





Almaz said:


> Actually all the Eastern Orthodox( Russian, other Eastern European, Chaldean, Assyrian, Medean Ethiopian, Eritean, Egyptian copts, and Menorite from Lebanon, Syria some part of Iran believe in transubstantiation. They are Ancient Churches. Some Anglicans do believe and they are trying to unify with the Eastern Churches but it is not happening right now



Thank you.  I figured those branches that are a part of or hold closer ties to Catholicism probably held the belief...


----------



## Crackers Phinn (Mar 29, 2009)

divya said:


> Interesting. I belong to branch of the Christian faith that recognizes the sacrificial/ceremonial system as pointing to Christ as the Paschal Lamb. The meaning of all of these things, including the holy days, are deeply studied.  *The lamb slaughtered in Exodus is believed to be representative of Christ, but is not considered a transubstantiation.* Christian theology is quite vast, so one can do much reading and still not reach all the beliefs.



The underlined is in line with what I've read.  

Even within Catholicism and Catholic hybrid religions, transubstantiation tends to stay in the crackers/body, blood/wine communion realm, but not so much references to passover.  I've yet to read a Protestant description of passover transubstantiation, but invite any texts/articles that folks can provide.


----------



## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 29, 2009)

divya said:


> Thank you. I figured those branches that are a part of or hold closer ties to Catholicism probably held the belief...


 
Well, catholicism just means universal. All those churches evolved at the same time in the very early church and furthered themselves in different regions. They all celebrated the Mass or the sacrifice. They are basically the same exact church with slight differences in the belief about the nature of the Holy Spirit (descending from the Father or descending from the Father and the Son), the institution base,Rome or Constantinople?? and culture. All venerate and honor (not worship) the Theotokos, Mother of G-d,credent churches. Very different from those of the Reformation with the exception of just a few.

Edit:  I meant to remember to say there is an ancient church and I mean ancient....these are eastern and they actually take a lamb out and sacrifice it.  I think I remember they roast it and also do something with a boiled egg.  Very similar elements to Passover.  If I find that link, I'll send it in.  I thought it was very interesting.  These people, like the Chaldeans and Assyrians, are basically "Jews" (I mean, they descended from those first christians, Jews). They do not mix with others and have maintained their traditions for millennia.  Very interesting.  


Well, I need to go to bed.  I feel like a kid in the classroom..."oooooh, I have a question....oooooh, I know that answer.....ooooooo...hands raised up"  Very nice thread indeed!


----------



## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 29, 2009)

JCoily said:


> The underlined is in line with what I've read.
> 
> Even within Catholicism and Catholic hybrid religions, transubstantiation *tends to stay in the* *crackers/body*, blood/wine communion realm, but not so much references to passover. I've yet to read a Protestant description of passover transubstantiation, but invite any texts/articles that folks can provide.


 

It actually means that when consecrated, it is the body and blood of the Christ, when you consume it. So it happens in the believers' body.  As a consecrated Host, it is kept specially and broken ones left over and crumbs, consumed by the priest.  This is where, in that tradition of christianity,the paschal lamb sacrifice (eaten at Passover) is understood to be the Christ.  Whole ones left over are kept in the holy ark until the next Mass.  I'm surprised at how much I am remembering.


----------



## divya (Mar 29, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Well, catholicism just means universal.  All those churches evolved at the same time in the very early church and furthered themselves in different regions.  They all celebrated the Mass or the sacrifice.  They are basically the same exact church with slight differences in the belief about the nature of the Holy Spirit (descending from the Father or descending from the Father and the Son), the institution base,Rome or Constantinople?? and culture.   All venerate and honor (not worship) the Theotokos, Mother of G-d,credent churches.  Very different from those of the Reformation with the exception of just a few.



Yes, the term catholic does come from the term universal in greek. All of those churches definitely exhibit very strong similarities. They do differ significantly from Reformation churches and certainly those after. In general, each Reformation church moved one or more steps away from Catholic traditions...


----------



## PinkPebbles (Mar 29, 2009)

ETA: I went back and read the thread and saw that you ladies let it go...thank you.


----------



## divya (Mar 29, 2009)

JCoily said:


> The underlined is in line with what I've read.
> 
> Even within Catholicism and Catholic hybrid religions, transubstantiation tends to stay in the crackers/body, blood/wine communion realm, but not so much references to passover.  I've yet to read a Protestant description of passover transubstantiation, but invite any texts/articles that folks can provide.



I've never heard the term transubstantiation used in my branch. The blood of a lamb sacrificed at Passover is not believed to have _transformed_ into Christ's blood but was symbolic of His role as the Paschal Lamb. There could be others who believe differently though...


----------



## Almaz (Mar 29, 2009)

Actually no I was just asking a question pure and simple. No sacarsm or anything just asking a simple question. 

If someone asks about Passover which is something that is an itegral part of my life I will answer the questions I will also ask questions too.

But there was never any sacarsm involved. Wise enough to call it a night it was not necessary to do that. Because no sarcasm was ever involved. 

Thank you 






PinkPebbles said:


> I could not go to sleep so I decided to log back on....this was an informative/positive thread....
> 
> Almaz - with all due respect. I welcomed your opinion/knowledge on the topic but I sensed that you started to become sarcastic with your questions to me. So I was wise enough to end it and call it a night.
> 
> God knows who has a sincere heart for knowledge and fellowship, and those who come on the forum to be argumentative and provoke others to act ungodly....It really saddens me that this thread did a downward turn. It seems as though that's the pattern around here lately. We want entertainment at the expense of others in this forum instead of growing and learning spirtually...


----------



## Almaz (Mar 29, 2009)

I dont' think that it took a down turn.


----------



## Almaz (Mar 29, 2009)

Yes G-d DOES not who is who and what it what. Who is sincere and who is not.

That is so true


----------



## PinkPebbles (Mar 29, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Actually no I was just asking a question pure and simple. No sacarsm or anything just asking a simple question.
> 
> If someone asks about Passover which is something that is an itegral part of my life I will answer the questions I will also ask questions too.
> 
> ...


 
I'm glad to know that.


----------



## beverly (Mar 29, 2009)

Please be advised that this thread is being watched, and infractions issued to the offending poster (s)

Carry  on


----------



## Crown (Mar 30, 2009)

divya said:


> Interesting. *I belong to branch of the Christian faith that recognizes the sacrificial/ceremonial system as pointing to Christ as the Paschal Lamb*. The meaning of all of these things, including the holy days, are deeply studied.  *The lamb slaughtered in Exodus is believed to be representative of Christ, but is not considered a transubstantiation. *Christian theology is quite vast, so one can do much reading and still not reach all the beliefs.
> 
> We understand the Passover is Jewish, but we consider it all part of a greater plan - God's plan of salvation.



This is what I believe about Passover. No transubstantiation!
May GOD bless all of us in The Name of JESUS-CHRIST!
Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with _him_ through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.  2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;  2:14 *Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; * 2:15 _And_ having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.  2:16 *Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath *_*days:* _ 2:17 *Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.*  2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,  2:19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.


----------



## Crown (Mar 30, 2009)

Ms.Honey said:


> I haven't studied it out yet but I've always considered this to be the FIRST passover. God sacrificing the animals (sacrificial lambs) in place of Adam and Eve because of their sins and clothing them in the skins (clothing them in His righteousness) He made for them.
> 
> *Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.  *
> ....



Yes, It is (for me), and Cain did not understand it.


----------



## divya (Mar 30, 2009)

Crown said:


> This is what I believe about Passover. No transubstantiation!
> May GOD bless all of us in The Name of JESUS-CHRIST!
> Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with _him_ through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.  2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;  2:14 *Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; * 2:15 _And_ having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.  2:16 *Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath *_*days:* _ 2:17 *Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.*  2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,  2:19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.



Thank you for providing the Scriptures.  All of the holy days and sabbaths within the ordinances looked towards the coming of Christ and are now blotted out because of his sacrifice...

1. Passover/The Feast of Unleavened Bread and those sabbaths within, Pesach on 15th and Yom Tov (?) 21st Day of Nisan

2. Shavuot, a sabbath on the 6th day of Sivan

3. Rosh Ha-shanah, a sabbath and holy day on the 1st day of Tishrei 

4. Yom Kippur, a sabbath and holy day on 10th day of the month of Tishrei

5. The Feast of the Tabernacles, with the sabbaths of Sukkoth and Shemini on the 15th and 22nd day of Tishrei 

(Jewish ladies please check the times/dates for me) 

_(And yes, I am aware of the debates regarding one or two of these ordinances and that most other Christians do not regard the verses to refer only to the sabbaths within the ordinances)_


----------



## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Mar 30, 2009)

divya said:


> I've never heard the term transubstantiation used in my branch. The blood of a lamb sacrificed at Passover is not believed to have _transformed_ into Christ's blood but was symbolic of His role as the Paschal Lamb. There could be others who believe differently though...


 

Divya,  I couldn't find that link yet so I'm not sure if it were a Melchite branch or not.  Perhaps Syriac or Malankara or Armenian Church (there are many types in those)?  There are articles but you have to pay for them  on JStor and whatnot. I'm not in school now so I don't have access to those.  

But I do know the early church still practiced animal sacrifice.  Well, they were Jews.  As the Church began to understand the death and resurrection of the Christ, future animal sacrifices (they remained in some of the churches) were no longer propitiatory but symbolic and the animal flesh was given for the poor.  It was the Eucharistic meal, the bread and wine which was now the propitiatory sacrifice.  

To me, it was a continuation or succession of Judaism.  It wasn't stopped...but was "transformed"  and is one of the mysteries, how it becomes flesh and blood upon consumption.  This is my understanding of it.  But anyhoo, was checking in for you like I said I would.  This is, however, not the article I was looking for.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3154334


----------



## discobiscuits (Mar 30, 2009)

Now THAT'S freedom right there: 


> 6As you have therefore received Christ, [even] Jesus the Lord, [so] walk (regulate your lives and conduct yourselves) in union with and conformity to Him.
> 
> 7Have the roots [of your being] firmly and deeply planted [in Him, fixed and founded in Him], being continually built up in Him, becoming increasingly more confirmed and established in the faith, just as you were taught, and abounding and overflowing in it with thanksgiving.
> 
> ...


_

_


----------



## Almaz (Apr 11, 2009)

Passover was great wish you were all there


----------



## divya (Apr 13, 2009)

Almaz said:


> Passover was great wish you were all there



That's very sweet of you.  I wanted to celebrate the Passover Seder with the Messianic congregation nearby but wasn't able to make it. Hopefully next year. 

Here are the pictures...

http://static.mgnetwork.com/rtd/slideshows/20090410seder/index.html


----------



## Almaz (Apr 13, 2009)

Wow absolutely beautiful.  Well hopefully you will make it next year


----------

