# Prosperity Gospel



## NitaChantell (Apr 14, 2010)

Any thoughts? At first I was opposed, & I couldn't stand watching Joel Osteen, but today someone disagreed and now I'm wondering. He said that God gives us life and more abundantly, and that God wants us to live good lives, & I guess be happy..

My take on this is yes, God is here to give us life and life more abundantly, but we need to remember that even if we go through a stressful situation for MONTHS or even YEARS, that God is still God and He didn't break any promises, and that we should still praise Him. Yes, God wants us to be happy, but sometimes the pain we go through is for the better, and GOD KNOWS WHAT HE'S DOING.!!!! A lot of my friends are converting to the Muslim faith because they feel like God abandoned them because they're having hard times and whatnot. Jesus suffered and died as the penalty for our sins. No where in the Bible does it say that we are NEVER going to experience pain or heartache.

Feedback?


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## Guitarhero (Apr 14, 2010)

NitaChantell said:


> Any thoughts? At first I was opposed, & I couldn't stand watching Joel Osteen, but today someone disagreed and now I'm wondering. He said that God gives us life and more abundantly, and that God wants us to live good lives, & I guess be happy..
> 
> My take on this is yes, God is here to give us life and life more abundantly, but we need to remember that even if we go through a stressful situation for MONTHS or even YEARS, that God is still God and He didn't break any promises, and that we should still praise Him. Yes, God wants us to be happy, but sometimes the pain we go through is for the better, and GOD KNOWS WHAT HE'S DOING.!!!! *A lot of my friends are converting to the Muslim faith because they feel like God abandoned them because they're having hard times and whatnot.* Jesus suffered and died as the penalty for our sins. No where in the Bible does it say that we are NEVER going to experience pain or heartache.
> 
> Feedback?



That's why I don't believe in it. Besides, the gospel is supposed to be referring to the Messiah coming.  These folks are all wrapped up in name-it-claim-it mumbo-jumbo magic and abracadabra, wealth pops up on a plate.  That's not the good news   It's a perk if God decides that it's for you, but it's not the good news.  And I think that the only ones truly gaining wealth are those in the pulpit preaching it because they are constantly asking poor folks to give money to get a financial miracle, as in a seed of faith.  I didn't know seeds were made of paper.


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## Laela (Apr 15, 2010)

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## NitaChantell (Apr 15, 2010)

Laela said:


> *And what really is your question... are you saying a successful, a wealthy believer isn't a real Christian or that one truly can't live for God if they aren't poor and suffering? *



My question is simply what are your thoughts on the Prosperity Gospel. From what I've read and seen, the Prosperity Gospel and Prosperity Preachers emphasize being rich, and that God wants you to be rich. I am not in any way saying that a rich person isn't a true Christian, or that you can only love for God if you're poor and suffering. There's nothing wrong with being wealthy. My problem with this new "gospel" is that believers are starting to think that they're automatically going to be rich and wealthy, and if they're not, something's wrong. We can live from paycheck to paycheck and still have life abundantly. God meant for every situation to happen exactly the way it is. Teaching people otherwise is nonsense in my opinion. We have all we need in Christ, that's my idea of life abundantly.


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## nathansgirl1908 (Apr 15, 2010)

NitaChantell said:


> Any thoughts? At first I was opposed, & I couldn't stand watching Joel Osteen, but today someone disagreed and now I'm wondering. He said that God gives us life and more abundantly, and that God wants us to live good lives, & I guess be happy..
> 
> My take on this is yes, God is here to give us life and life more abundantly, but we need to remember that even if we go through a stressful situation for MONTHS or even YEARS, that God is still God and He didn't break any promises, and that we should still praise Him. Yes, God wants us to be happy, but sometimes the pain we go through is for the better, and GOD KNOWS WHAT HE'S DOING.!!!! A lot of my friends are converting to the Muslim faith because they feel like God abandoned them because they're having hard times and whatnot. Jesus suffered and died as the penalty for our sins. No where in the Bible does it say that we are NEVER going to experience pain or heartache.
> 
> Feedback?



I used to love watching Joel Osteen, but then I started to realize that he was saying the same thing over and over.  

But I see the prosperity gospel as being different from what you are referencing.   I thought the prosperity gospel was referencing financial blessings, not the lack of pain or heartache.  

I don't advocate for the prosperity gospel, but I do think that Christians can be wealthy and SHOULD be wealthy.


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## Do_Si_Dos (Apr 15, 2010)

I go to a church that talks about  prosperity and I love it!  I know  God can and will bless us beyond our wildest dream.  My pastor not alone encourages not living in lack but encourages having a good heart with right intentions.


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## Laela (Apr 15, 2010)

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## Ladybelle (Apr 15, 2010)

My take on the prosperity message is this: 

One of the main things God wants us to do as believers is spread the word. How can one spread the word broke? A broke/poor person only has time to worry about himself and where his or her next paycheck is coming from, a broke person can't effectively spread the word.  

Secondly, prosperity is more than just $$$. It's health, it's emotional stability, wellness, successful relationships &  every other area of our lives.   To be rich does not equate to being prosperous. Being prosperous is the ability to be a blessing to others in your lives in every way. 

Jesus himself was RICH. But Jesus was humble and he was meek and he didn't allow the desire for things to consume his existence as some Christians & preachers have done.  

I agree with the prosperity message when taught properly, when the main focus is not just getting material things & money but using  ourselves & stuff to bless others and recruit members into the body of Christ.  How sweet it is to have money to really help others & how sad it is to want to help others but not have the resources to do so.


eta:the prosperity message in my understanding, doesn't teach that one won't experience trials & tribulations.  But, being under the blessing of God "none of these things move me." (Acts 20:24)


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## Guitarhero (Apr 15, 2010)

I think she's talking about prosperity gospel as a doctrine, which isn't biblical.  There are many of us who aren't poor.  Doctrine and focus on that and only that for a christian ministry is flawed IMHO. Of course, I'm referencing those who constantly beg for money and themselves live in mansions by the hands of the poor who do not attain real financial wealth - religious abuse.


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## Laela (Apr 15, 2010)

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## Do_Si_Dos (Apr 15, 2010)

asuperwoman said:


> My take on the prosperity message is this:
> 
> One of the main things God wants us to do as believers is spread the word. How can one spread the word broke? A broke/poor person only has time to worry about himself and where his or her next paycheck is coming from, a broke person can't effectively spread the word.
> 
> ...


 

Very well said!!!


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## Guitarhero (Apr 15, 2010)

Laela said:


> Doctrine is a body of teachings/instructions. _Any _teaching pulled from the Word of God is "doctrine" and is therefore, of the Bible or Biblical. Tithing is Biblical. Offerings are Biblical.... Most of these teachers are non-denominational because of "Doctrine," a word so loosely used to divide.




As they form the tenets of the particular faith and define it.  I guess dogma, then.  There are those who form their religious base along prosperity teachings when they should form them along the Gospel of the Good News.  The Good News is redemption, it's not prosperity through material means.  That is a separate issue which has no business being called "gospel."  Again, I'm talking about the abuses of such teachings and churches which absolutely make it their "doctrine" or focus of their ministry to where it becomes their creed of faith.  I am not saying that God cannot prosper people or ministries.  Money is not evil.

Well, question.  Beliefs, doctrine and practices. Are you saying then that prosperity gospel churches consider those scriptures truly a dogma of your church in that it defines the structure and provides for the basis of the tenets of your faith as unwavering teaching, from which one cannot stray from belief or be considered  no longer  a true spiritual member of it? I think that what I'm seeing and what some of you are seeing are two different things.  Someone can teach that God can prosper but how far do they take it?  Is it the main goal of the ministry?  That's what I'd like to know.


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## Laela (Apr 15, 2010)

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## Lylddlebit (Apr 15, 2010)

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## Guitarhero (Apr 15, 2010)

Laela said:


> You're stuck on "prosperity" being all about the $$$
> 
> Which scriptures are you referring to?



I'm not stuck on prosperity being about money.  Material wealth was previously mentioned.  Someone else brought up the fact that ministries require money to function and of course and I'm not disagreeing with that.  I likewise don't disagree that God wants and can bless us financially, physically, etc.  But the realities are that the majority of the world is poor, not monetarily rich.  Many of the world's population suffers from physical illnesses.  Are those people any less spiritual or knowledgeable about God?  No.  But then God can and does bless us all, according to His will.  Sometimes where there is lack, it's not been prayed about or not prayed about enough.

Scriptures?  I hope that those in prosperity gospel churches will provide those scriptures that form the basis of their teachings.  We don't have such a doctrine, to my knowedge - not a codeification of such.  Of course, scripture does talk about material blessings but they do not make up the teaching codeified faith of where I attend (as in, I do not comprehend it and am asking those who belong to such to explain it. This is not a contest on who's got the bigger bible).    There are churches where prosperity and healings are the focus of each meeting.  Why they choose to call this the gospel, I don't know.  The gospel is the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus, His words and deeds.  Why do they choose to focus on gaining wealth?   What about redemption?

For us, we have the teachings as taught to us and we don't interpret them individually (so how is it they call this the new gospel because I cannnot myself make sense of it in the extreme???  This is my own understanding).

(I'm talking about those churches who make this the absolute function, focus and running of the church)


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## Guitarhero (Apr 15, 2010)

I want to post an article from Christianity Today.  If there are any here to belong to churches who have a prosperity theology, could you point out where this article errs?  Um, this is not to flame anyone or any denomination. It's for a basic understanding about those types of churches:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/decemberweb-only/gc-prosperitystatement.html

A Statement On Prosperity Teaching
From the Lausanne Theology Working Group, Africa chapter at its consultations in Akropong, Ghana, 8-9 October, 2008 and 1-4 September 2009
posted 12/08/2009 04:14PM

NOTE:  This is a statement, offered as a discussion starter for further reflection (theological, ethical, pastoral and missiological, socio-political and economic) on the phenomenal rise of prosperity teaching around the world at large and Africa in particular. The points below are a digest of many points made in the course of the discussion of three papers at the Oct. 2008 and ten papers at the Sept 2009 consultations.

We define prosperity gospel as the teaching that believers have a right to the blessings of health and wealth and that they can obtain these blessings through positive confessions of faith and the "sowing of seeds" through the faithful payments of tithes and offerings. We recognize that prosperity teaching is a phenomenon that cuts across denominational barriers. Prosperity teaching can be found in varying degrees in mainstream Protestant, Pentecostal as well as Charismatic Churches. It is the phenomenon of prosperity teaching that is being addressed here not any particular denomination or tradition.

We further recognize that there are some dimensions of prosperity teaching that have roots in the Bible, and we affirm such elements of truth below. We do not wish to be exclusively negative, and we recognize the appalling social realities within which this teaching flourishes and the measure of hope it holds out to desperate people.  However, while acknowledging such positive features, it is our overall view that the teachings of those who most vigorously promote the 'prosperity gospel' are false and gravely distorting of the Bible, that their practice is often unethical and unChristlike, and that the impact on many churches is pastorally damaging, spiritually unhealthy, and not only offers no lasting hope, but may even deflect people from the message and means of eternal salvation. In such dimensions, it can be soberly described as a false gospel.

We call for further reflection on these matters within the Christian Church, and request the Lausanne movement to be willing to make a very clear statement rejecting the excesses of prosperity teaching as incompatible with evangelical biblical Christianity.

1. We affirm the miraculous grace and power of God, and welcome the growth of churches and ministries that demonstrate them and that lead people to exercise expectant faith in the living God and his supernatural power. We believe in the power of the Holy Spirit.

However, we reject as unbiblical the notion that God's miraculous power can be treated as automatic, or at the disposal of human techniques, or manipulated by human words, actions or rituals.

2. We affirm that there is a biblical vision of human prospering, and that the Bible includes material welfare (both health and wealth) within its teaching about the blessing of God.  This needs further study and explanation across the whole Bible in both Testaments.  We must not dichotomize the material and the spiritual in unbiblical dualism.

However, we reject the unbiblical notion that spiritual welfare can be measured in terms of material welfare, or that wealth is always a sign of God's blessing  (since it can be obtained by oppression, deceit or corruption), or that poverty or illness or early death, is always a sign of God's curse, or lack of faith, or human curses  (since the Bible explicitly denies that it is always so)

3. We affirm the biblical teaching on the importance of hard work, and the positive use of all the resources that God has given us—abilities, gifts, the earth, education, wisdom, skills, wealth, etc.  And to the extent that some Prosperity teaching encourages these things, it can have a positive effect on people's lives. We do not believe in an unbiblical ascetism that rejects such things, or an unbiblical fatalism that sees poverty as a fate that cannot be fought against.

However, we reject as dangerously contradictory to the sovereign grace of God, the notion that success in life is entirely due to our own striving, wrestling, negotiation, or cleverness.  We reject those elements of Prosperity Teaching that are virtually identical to 'positive thinking' and other kinds of 'self-help' techniques.

We are also grieved to observe that Prosperity Teaching has stressed individual wealth and success, without the need for community accountability, and has thus actually damaged a traditional feature of African society, which was commitment to care within the extended family and wider social community.

4. We recognize that Prosperity Teaching flourishes in contexts of terrible poverty, and that for many people, it presents their only hope, in the face of constant frustration, the failure of politicians and NGOs, etc., for a better future, or even for a more bearable present.  We are angry that such poverty persists and we affirm the Bible's view that it also angers God and that it is not his will that people should live in abject poverty. We acknowledge and confess that in many situations the Church has lost its prophetic voice in the public arena.


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## Guitarhero (Apr 15, 2010)

However, we do not believe that Prosperity Teaching provides a helpful or biblical response to the poverty of the people among whom it flourishes. And we observe that much of this teaching has come from North American sources where people are not materially poor in the same way.

   1. It vastly enriches those who preach it, but leaves multitudes no better off than before, with the added burden of disappointed hopes.
   2. While emphasizing various alleged spiritual or demonic causes of poverty, it gives little or no attention to those causes that are economic and political, including injustice, exploitation, unfair international trade practices, etc. 
   3. It thus tends to victimize the poor by making them feel that their poverty is their own fault (which the Bible does not do), while failing to address and denounce those whose greed inflicts poverty on others  (which the Bible does repeatedly).
   4. Some prosperity teaching is not really about helping the poor at all, and provides no sustainable answer to the real causes of poverty.

5. We accept that some prosperity teachers sincerely seek to use the Bible in explaining and promoting their teachings.

However, we are distressed that much use of the Bible is seriously distorted, selective, and manipulative.  We call for a more careful exegesis of texts,  and a more holistic biblical hermeneutic, and we denounce the way that many texts are twisted out of context and used in ways that contradict some very plain Bible teaching.

And especially, we deplore the fact that in many churches where Prosperity Teaching is dominant, the Bible is rarely preached in any careful or explanatory way, and the way of salvation, including repentance from sin and saving faith in Christ for forgiveness of sin, and the hope of eternal life, is misrepresented and substituted with material wellbeing.

6. We rejoice in the phenomenal growth of the numbers of professing Christians in many countries where churches that have adopted prosperity teachings and practice are very popular.

However, numerical growth or mega-statistics may not necessarily demonstrate the truth of the message that accompanies it, or the belief system behind it. Popularity is no proof of truth;  and people can be deceived in great numbers.

7. We are pleased to observe that many churches and leaders are critical and in some cases overtly renounce and cut the links with specific aspects of African primal or traditional religion and its practices, where these can be seen to be in conflict with the biblical revelation and worldview.

Yet it seems clear that there are many aspects of Prosperity Teaching that have their roots in that soil.  We therefore wonder if much popular Christianity is a syncretised super-structure on an underlying worldview that has not been radically transformed by the biblical gospel. We also wonder whether the popularity and attraction of Prosperity Teaching is an indication of the failure of contextualization of the Gospel in Africa.

8. We observe that many people testify to the way Prosperity Teaching has in fact impacted their lives for the better—encouraging them to have greater faith, to seek to improve their education, or working lives.  We rejoice in this.  There is great power in such testimony, and we thank God when any of his children enjoy his blessing.

However, we observe equally that many people have been duped by such teaching into false faith and false expectations, and when these are not satisfied, they 'give up on God',  or lose their faith altogether and leave the church.  This is tragic, and must be very grievous to God.

9. We accept that many prosperity teachers mostly have their roots in evangelical churches and traditions, or were brought up under the influence of evangelical parachurch ministries. 

But we deplore the clear evidence that many of them have in practice moved away from key and fundamental tenets of evangelical faith, including the authority and priority of the Bible as the Word of God, and the centrality of the cross of Christ.

10. We know that God sometimes puts leaders in positions of significant public fame and influence.

However, there are aspects of the lifestyle and behaviour of many preachers of Prosperity Teaching that we find deplorable, unethical, and frankly idolatrous (to the god of Mammon), and in some of these respects we may be called upon to identify and reject such things as the marks of false prophets, according to the standards of the Bible.  These include:

   1. Flamboyant and excessive wealth and extravagant lifestyles.
   2. Unethical and manipulative techniques.
   3. Constant emphasis on money, as if it were a supreme good—which is mammon.
   4. Replacing the traditional call to repentance and faith with a call to give money.
   5. Covetousness which is idolatry.
   6. Living and behaving in ways that are utterly inconsistent with either the example of Jesus or the pattern of discipleship that he taught.
   7. Ignoring or contradicting the strong New Testament teaching on the dangers of wealth and the idolatrous sin of greed.
   8. Failure to preach the word of God in a way that feeds the flock of Christ.
   9. Failure to preach the whole gospel message of sin, repentance, faith and eternal hope.
  10. Failure to preach the whole counsel of God, but replacing it with what people want to hear.
  11. Replacing time for evangelism with fund raising events and appeals.

First Draft by Rev. Dr. Chris Wright (Chair, Lausanne Theology Working Group); edited by Rev. Dr. John Azumah (Member, Lausanne Theology Working Group); in collaboration with Rev. Prof. Kwabena Asamoah-Gyadu, Chair of the Akropong consultations.

This is a collated digest of points made by many contributors, through the written papers and the discussion that followed them.
Related Elsewhere:

Related to "Did Jesus Wear Designer Robes?" by J. Kwabena Asamoah-Gyadu.


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## Laela (Apr 15, 2010)

0-----------------o


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## NitaChantell (Apr 15, 2010)

asuperwoman said:


> My take on the prosperity message is this:
> 
> One of the main things God wants us to do as believers is spread the word. How can one spread the word broke? *A broke/poor person only has time to worry about himself and where his or her next paycheck is coming from, a broke person can't effectively spread the word.
> *



I'm very much broke for all intensive purposes, but I still effectively spread God's word. Through my life, my words, my actions, they see more and more of God in me each day. I think that goes far beyond what money can do.

Also, I'm not worried at all about having no money. I have faith that God will pull me through, and I know that even if I'm broke forever, He's still God, and He's done more than enough for me, so I don't spend time worrying about it.

***I'm not trying to start a debate or argument, I just want you to see things in a new light. I'm listening too, to everyone's responses, as I have a lot to learn. Discussion amongst believers is very helpful when it's productive***


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## Laela (Apr 15, 2010)

This sounds like ANY church to me... including the Catholic Church.





CreoleNat said:


> 1. Flamboyant and excessive wealth and extravagant lifestyles.
> 2. Unethical and manipulative techniques.
> 3. Constant emphasis on money, as if it were a supreme good—which is mammon.
> 4. Replacing the traditional call to repentance and faith with a call to give money.
> ...


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## Southernbella. (Apr 15, 2010)

The prosperity gospel as I've heard it preached is manipulative and exploitative, and I do not agree with it in any way, shape, or form.

***Disclaimer: I can't speak for all churces or preachers, just the ones I've heard.


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## Laela (Apr 15, 2010)

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## Supergirl (Apr 15, 2010)

NitaChantell said:


> Any thoughts? At first I was opposed, & I couldn't stand watching Joel Osteen, but today someone disagreed and now I'm wondering. He said that God gives us life and more abundantly, and that God wants us to live good lives, & I guess be happy..
> 
> My take on this is yes, God is here to give us life and life more abundantly, but we need to remember that even if we go through a stressful situation for MONTHS or even YEARS, that God is still God and He didn't break any promises, and that we should still praise Him. Yes, God wants us to be happy, but sometimes the pain we go through is for the better, and GOD KNOWS WHAT HE'S DOING.!!!! A lot of my friends are converting to the Muslim faith because they feel like God abandoned them because they're having hard times and whatnot. Jesus suffered and died as the penalty for our sins. No where in the Bible does it say that we are NEVER going to experience pain or heartache.
> 
> Feedback?



Yes, Jesus warned us of trouble and the Bible told us to think it not strange when we are faced with trials. I wonder what your friends will do when they experience a trial as a muslim. :scratchch

As for the 'prosperity gospel', I feel that each pastor/teacher of the Word is likely called to proclaim a very specific type of message regarding Jesus Christ. Just because one preaches prosperity and another preaches something else, it doesn't mean that one is wrong. The Word of God is multifaceted and even if every single pastor out there was called to proclaim a different facet of God, we still wouldn't be able to comprehend the half of who God really and truly is! Our earthly minds are only equipped to understand Him to a certain limit--these earthly bodies would probably explode if we ever came into the FULL understanding of God. We'll do that once we're with Him. 

Anyway, my point is that different Christian leaders have different roles that they are called to fulfill and different facets of God and His Word that they are called to proclaim and teach. God is not a one-dimensional God, so no way are they all going to be preaching the same thing.

I think the underlying message of the prosperity gospel is that we should: 
*have an understanding that our Father is a King

*we should expect to live victoriously in THIS life because He is a king--if it were just about being miserable on earth and then finally being victorious when Jesus comes back, God would've never created us or earth. He would've just kept us in Heaven from jump. 

*we should not walk around looking defeated even if we feel that way because a) we are still representing Him b) in Him, there is always Hope c) He is God and He is a deliverer. 

*God loves us--it sounds simple, but that's a BIG thing.

ETA: Okay, I've kind of looked through the thread now; I responded not thinking of prosperity gospel as preaching about financial gains. I was thinking more along the lines of living with joy and victory and continuing to hope through trials.


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## Guitarhero (Apr 15, 2010)

Laela said:


> *Maybe I missed something....*
> 
> If you will note, those churches are largely non-denominational, _not _religious. They DO preach the gospel and redemption; what sets them apart is their leaders aren't afraid to preach about ALL aspects of the abundant life.  There is no  focus on "wealth" (money) but focus on being right with God, and as a result being blessed in all areas of one's life -- a byproduct of living right. God provides for them, because He is their source. How can I go out to preach the gospel if I'm sick and broke? Jesus was neither, he had a treasurer. He always had financial means to get to the next town...



I think so.  I mentioned those that are abusing others.  Basically, those under investigation and/or fallen from "grace" somewhat.  Juanita Bynum?  Under question.  Benny Hinn, under question.  Many others.  Is it in looking at what they preach only or is it in also viewing how they live their lives?  It's not about the Senator Grassley at all.  I'm seeing a disconnect in SOME of the churches that base their whole ministries off of prosperity theology.  Allegations by board members and congregants is serious, though.  That doesn't mean that I'm expecting you or anyone else to be an actual member of the ones under investigation nor that your church doesn't focus on the true gospel of Christ.  I was mainly interested in that as the main doctrine and focus of some churches.  I do realize that the bible speaks about prosperity.  I have mentioned it twice in this thread.

Here's a difference.  X-church preaches about salvation and bettering oneself spiritually and requests money for a building project or that people do not slack up on their tithes.  X-church leadership does not live extravagantly and is open about finances.  Z-church lightly mentions salvation and spiritual development, focusing heavily on gaining wealth and requests that members offer a seed of faith or operates by a word of faith (name-it-claim-it) in order to receive blessings to counter their financial stresses in life.  Z-church leadership  lives extravagantly and is not open about the finances.  They are not the same.


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## Guitarhero (Apr 15, 2010)

Laela said:


> This sounds like ANY church to me... including the Catholic Church.




Any church or any false church?


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## Laela (Apr 15, 2010)

ANY church.





CreoleNat said:


> Any church or any false church?


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## Do_Si_Dos (Apr 15, 2010)

CreoleNat said:


> I'm not stuck on prosperity being about money. Material wealth was previously mentioned. Someone else brought up the fact that ministries require money to function and of course and I'm not disagreeing with that. I likewise don't disagree that God wants and can bless us financially, physically, etc. *But the realities are that the majority of the world is poor, not monetarily rich. Many of the world's population suffers from physical illnesses. Are those people any less spiritual or knowledgeable about God? No. But then God can and does bless us all, according to His will. *Sometimes where there is lack, it's not been prayed about or not prayed about enough.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## CoilyFields (Apr 15, 2010)

I toatlly agree that It is a mistake to teach people that spiritual wealth and health = physical health and wealth. God chooses whom He will bless in this way and it falls on the just as well as the unjust. I can't speak on any particular preacher of this "doctrine" but I can say that God is more concerned with us spreading his word than our outward state. 

The gospel is the dealth burial and ressurection of Jesus Christ for the redemption of our sins. And "Pure religion and underfiled before God the father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their afflication and to keep himself unspotted from the world." James 1:27.

Theres nothing wrong with recognizing God as Jehovah Jireh, our provider and yes he does want us to live life abundantly. But do not forget, "...ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask and recieve not, because ye ask amiss that ye may consume it upon your lusts." James 4 :2-3

As another poster said...God blesses us to bless others


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## shinyblackhair (Apr 15, 2010)

God knows the intentions in our heart. He knows who can handle material blessings and remain humble and with their faith strong and who will crumble under the problems that money and material blessings can bring. But, then again, the Lord and Him alone decides who He will bless, He sends rain for the good and the evil does He not. So, it can be argued that we can name and claim till we're blue in the face but, ultimately God's hands cannot be forced just because we've claimed it in His name...at least I don't think so (I'm not an expert on this teaching). I just think if your heart is right and God feels that material wealth is for you, than He will give it to you. The rest of us, and the majority of us, need to learn CONTENTMENT. If we have food, and clothes and God has provided the necessities of life than we should praise HIM.  If we lack, we can ask and it shall be given, if we ask with a clean heart.


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## Guitarhero (Apr 16, 2010)

Laela said:


> ANY church.




But then you are using that list of what prosperity theology is about (the article considering it a falsehood) to describe all churches, even your own.  I don't understand.  You mean that any church could potentially become that or that some of every sect have demonstrated some of that?


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## Guitarhero (Apr 16, 2010)

Do_Si_Dos said:


> CreoleNat said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not stuck on prosperity being about money. Material wealth was previously mentioned. Someone else brought up the fact that ministries require money to function and of course and I'm not disagreeing with that. I likewise don't disagree that God wants and can bless us financially, physically, etc. *But the realities are that the majority of the world is poor, not monetarily rich. Many of the world's population suffers from physical illnesses. Are those people any less spiritual or knowledgeable about God? No. But then God can and does bless us all, according to His will. *Sometimes where there is lack, it's not been prayed about or not prayed about enough.
> ...


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## maxineshaw (Apr 16, 2010)

I don't like prosperity gospel/preaching.  I don't think there is anything wrong with preaching about living a good life, but that good life is usually mentioned in material wealth and absent of the Lord-more specifically, His word/commandments.  The good life is lived for God and not for the self.   I'm not saying people can't enjoy/aren't deserving of material wealth, but "for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also" (Matthew 6:21).

Verse 19 and 20 of Matthew 6 are also worth mentioning:
19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal".



Prosperity gospel tends to ignore scriptures such as these.


Another reason I don't like prosperity gospel is because I'm leery of people who always tell me what I want to hear.  This is almost always the case with prosperity preachers.  It's like their words are all about the self, and they sprinkle a little of God in there to make their preaching seem authentic.


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## huxtable (Apr 16, 2010)

@ the first bolded:

Habakkuk 3 from verse 17:

17Although the fig tree shall not blossom, neither shall fruit be in the vines; the labour of the olive shall fail, and the fields shall yield no meat; the flock shall be cut off from the fold, and there shall be no herd in the stalls:

 18Yet I will rejoice in the LORD, I will joy in the God of my salvation.

 19The LORD God is my strength, and he will make my feet like hinds' feet, and he will make me to walk upon mine high places. To the chief singer on my stringed instruments






NitaChantell said:


> I'm very much broke for all intensive purposes, but I still effectively spread God's word. Through my life, my words, my actions, they see more and more of God in me each day. I think that goes far beyond what money can do.
> 
> Also, I'm not worried at all about having no money. I have faith that God will pull me through, and *I know that even if I'm broke forever, He's still God*, and He's done more than enough for me, so I don't spend time worrying about it.
> 
> ***I'm not trying to start a debate or argument, I just want you to see things in a new light. I'm listening too, to everyone's responses, as I have a lot to learn. Discussion amongst believers is very helpful when it's productive***


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## Crown (Apr 16, 2010)

I like this :
http://www.layhands.com/HearGodsVoice.htm
Another example concerns Peter.  In Galatians 2:11-14, Paul said that  Peter had wrongly separated himself from Gentile Christians because he  was swayed by the opinions of other people, and in turn Peter swayed  other Jewish Christians to do the same.  In this case, an apostle was  led astray by the voice of other Christians, and this apostle led other  Christians astray!  It's easy for us to be deceived, which is why we  need to know how to discern what we're hearing from the "voice" of other  people (more on this later).  All of us have preconceived biases which  act as "filters" when we read the Bible, and therefore *even your pastor  or my pastor can be deceived and teach us things that are incorrect*.  If  an apostle can be deceived then certainly a pastor can too!  *This is  why it's important for each one of us to study the Bible for ourselves  and ask God for discernment so that we can recognize the Truth when we  see it*.               
--
Or the lie when we see it.


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## shinyblackhair (Apr 16, 2010)

Crown said:


> I like this :
> http://www.layhands.com/HearGodsVoice.htm
> Another example concerns Peter. In Galatians 2:11-14, Paul said that Peter had wrongly separated himself from Gentile Christians because he was swayed by the opinions of other people, and in turn Peter swayed other Jewish Christians to do the same. In this case, an apostle was led astray by the voice of other Christians, and this apostle led other Christians astray! It's easy for us to be deceived, which is why we need to know how to discern what we're hearing from the "voice" of other people (more on this later). All of us have preconceived biases which act as "filters" when we read the Bible, and therefore *even your pastor or my pastor can be deceived and teach us things that are incorrect*. If an apostle can be deceived then certainly a pastor can too! *This is why it's important for each one of us to study the Bible for ourselves and ask God for discernment so that we can recognize the Truth when we see it*.
> --
> Or the lie when we see it.


 


Study to show thyself approved.  II Tim 2:15


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## Guitarhero (Apr 18, 2010)

It came to me today during the sermon on the gospels where Jesus asked Peter if he loved Him.  The sermon was about our faith, our profession and how it is reflected in our lives and if not, then we need to seek out what in fact we truly believe in.  The following scriptures came to mind concerning the far-swinging side of prosperity theology.  I'm not talking about the concept of God blessing us materially, I'm concerning the discussion with those ministries that put the teaching of  personal holiness on the back burner.

Psalms 37:4  Delight yourself in the LORD, and he will give you the desires of your heart.

Psalms 21:2  You have given him his heart's desire, And You have not withheld the request of his lips. Selah.

Psalms 145:19  He will fulfill the desire of those who fear Him; He will also hear their cry and will save them.

Isaiah 58:14  Then you will take delight in the LORD, And I will make you ride on the heights of the earth; And I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father, For the mouth of the LORD has spoken."


So, if we delight in Him first, He can and does provide the desires of our hearts that are in alignment with His will.  His will is never that we separate ourselves from Him.  If we are grounded towards God first, He blesses above and beyond, but we have to look to the reason we're here in the first place.


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## dr.j (Apr 19, 2010)

This is an interesting and stimulating discussion.

Romans 4:17
As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations."  He is our father in the sight of God, whom he believed --- the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were. 

The posperity gospel and Word of Faith preachers use this verse as rationale, however if you look at the full verse, this verse is about God's character.  It is not talking about what we are able to do.  God calls things that are not as though they were.


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## Do_Si_Dos (Apr 19, 2010)

CreoleNat said:


> Do_Si_Dos said:
> 
> 
> > CreoleNat said:
> ...


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## gn1g (Apr 19, 2010)

I think the church has gone waaaaay over board in preaching this message and is grossly out of balance.  I've watched this prosperity gospel ramp up starting with Leroy Thompson and catch-on like wild fire spreading all over the world.  Now all the pastors have huge mansions fancy cars and all the niceties. We are in the earth for a moment this life is temporary.  


*GOD IS CONCERNED ABOUT SOULS!* and pastors should be.  

But as I finished typing this I felt the Lord say *"FAITH*" and that is "Without faith it is impossible to please Him."  so maybe the prosperity message is a type of faith.  hmmm.  I will listen


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## Guitarhero (Apr 19, 2010)

Someone brought up the point that those denominational churches aren't religious.  What does this mean?  A set certain dogma (but isn't christianity?) or doctrine and practice?  I'm wondering if those  churches are considered outside traditional christianity because isn't it a religion?   Are they mainstream?? Anyone can respond because I actually need this information for someone.


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## Laela (Apr 19, 2010)

----------------


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## Laela (Apr 19, 2010)

------------------------


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## Guitarhero (Apr 19, 2010)

Do_Si_Dos said:


> CreoleNat said:
> 
> 
> > Do_Si_Dos said:
> ...


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## Guitarhero (Apr 19, 2010)

Laela said:


> ANY church.



So going it alone is a better stance?  How would one know if his discernment is off?  He would seek answers solely between him and God and not exactly as God designed it, a community support system. Not that we don't often go directly to God for answers and not that we shouldn't listen to the voice of God in our hearts, but we generally base answers upon scripture and our community (teachers).   What if we don't have His will but an answer not by His inispiration? Imma think about it.


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## Crown (Apr 19, 2010)

The prosperity gospel in the  real has nothing in common with the being prosperous teaching (from inside to outside) of the Bible.

Humility and faith : yes.
Manipulation and exploitation by a Pastor : no.

I know some Christians paying tithes, offerings, and giving sometimes their entire pay check, indebted to be able to eat or to take the bus – not being able to pay for child’s school because they gave the money to the rich Pastor, and I could say more…

Maybe I don’t understand, and maybe there is an exception.
But, is it the Gospel?

\Well, you need to hear about money, because you ain't gonna have no love and joy and peace until you get some money!/; (TBN, July 20, 1999)

\I'm telling you, Jesus wasn't poor, and He didn't wear no rags, either; like we march in on these Easter little plays that we do at our church, with those raggedy sheets on. Jesus didn't have no rags on. He wore designer clothes, honey!/ 
(Creflo Dollar Crusade, February 9, 1999)

\Break out of that old $2.50 offering, you get to get into that savings account and give something that's precious to you.&quot; / &quot;Somebody might say, 'Well, I don't believe it.' Well, you probably wouldn't with your broke self.&quot; / What's the gospel to the poor? It is prosperity!/ (TBN, Praise-A-Thon, April 1, 2004)

\The apostles were business men; they were rich men; had plenty of money. I'm going to show you that Jesus was a wealthy man; had plenty of money. (Ever Increasing Faith/ TBN, November 23, 1990)

\Jesus was not poor...Jesus had a nice house! John 1:38 says that Jesus turned to those that were following him and said, 'Come with me.' And they said, 'Where dwellest thou?' He said, 'Come and see.' And Jesus took that whole crowd home with Him to stay in His House. That meant it was a big house! Jesus wore fine clothes! John 19:23 says, 'He had a seamless robe.' Roman soldiers gambled for it at the foot of the cross. It was a designer original! It was valuable enough for them to want it! And then there are Christians that have a poverty complex that says, 'Well, I feel guilty about having nice things.' Jesus didn't!/ (Praise-A-Thon, TBN, November 5, 2004)

\Cash is king! The hundred fold works. 'If I give $50 you mean God will give me $5,000?' Yes! If you give $1000 in the offering this morning, will God give you $100,000 by tomorrow? Yes!/ (The Choke Hold&quot;, The Church Channel, January 24, 2004)

\The more you give the more protection you will have for tomorrow. God will spare you if you sow today./ (TBN, April 1, 2004)
........
http://www.victorstephens.com/victorstephenswebsite_019.htm
http://www.victorstephens.com/victorstephenswebsite_020.htm


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## Guitarhero (Apr 19, 2010)

Laela said:


> It is possible to be misguided by this scripture.
> A person's faith wavers only if they don't have the level of faith to receive. This is why it's important for us to spend time in the Word, so God's written Word _speaks _directly to us (Rhema Word)
> 
> *In John 8:28*: "_Jesus therefore said, 'When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me_"
> ...



I, too, believe that people can be misguided by their reading of scripture.  
I see Jesus speaking from His divinity, not humanity with that statement.  He was showing them that He was the fulfillment and that "I AM THAT I AM,"  which is what God's name was throughout Jewish history.  He was demonstrating that He is part of the God-head (from a christian perspective).  Afterall, Jews were taught in scripture that God is One and has no physical form.  


Now, this is where I beg to differ.  I've never heard anyone say we receive God's dna upon belief in Jesus.  The Holy Spirit is just that, a person of the godhead,  but Spirit, not flesh.   But I understand you to be saying that He gives us authority through His Name to perform miracles and such.  That, I agree with, it's scriptural.  But all is according to His will.  He sometimes refuses to heal a person because it's not His will because their suffering might be more valuable.  There are many people of great faith and they have not been healed or prospered materially.  I'm sure they have been prospered spiritually.  

Paul's thorn in his flesh?  Not healed.  He is one of Jesus' beloved apostles, His great friend.  Does it mean they lacked the faith necessary to be healed?  I don't believe so.  My point is not that God cannot heal and prosper us, but that He sometimes has other plans in mind.  I believe in His great blessings because I've seen them.  Absolute miracles!  Buuuttt, there is a lot of difference between tricking desperate innocent and bible-believing people into giving money to get a miracle.  These are two distinct types of prosperity "gospel" I meant to address.  Not sure about the OP, but it seems she was directing her message towards the extreme end of it.


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## Laela (Apr 19, 2010)

-------------------


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## Guitarhero (Apr 19, 2010)

Crown said:


> The prosperity gospel in the  real has nothing in common with the being prosperous teaching (from inside to outside) of the Bible.
> 
> Humility and faith : yes.
> Manipulation and exploitation by a Pastor : no.
> ...



Thank you for those links.  I'll pass them on.  I hate to say it but Juanita Bynum and Benny Hinn come to mind.  We all can have horrid ends to relationships we thought were from the hand of God and I'm not downing any people who've had divorces, but just look at their lives.  But??????


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## Laela (Apr 19, 2010)

There are a gazillion sites like this... what's your point?

What do YOU believe?




Crown said:


> The prosperity gospel in the  real has nothing in common with the being prosperous teaching (from inside to outside) of the Bible.
> 
> Humility and faith : yes.
> Manipulation and exploitation by a Pastor : no.
> ...


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## Guitarhero (Apr 19, 2010)

Laela said:


> Did you read my response today on Religion vs. Relationship?
> 
> 
> Ultimately your salvation is in YOUR  hands...it's not the responsibility of your church, or your pastor. We're connected to a 'church' to be connected to a vision and to serve the community, to live out what God calls us to do and to be fed the Word. But in the end, what we do with the Word (seed) we're fed is our *individual responsibility. The attitude shouldn't be what the church can do for us, but what we can do for the church. *
> ...



Not yet, I'll read it shortly.  Thank you for clarification.  Pointing fingers is one thing, but holding them accountable is another.  We're not judging them, we're holding them to accountability as supposed teachers of the truth.  Once someone starts changing scripture to reflect an unorthodox theology, the sirens need to come on.  That's my point.


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## Crown (Apr 19, 2010)

Laela said:


> There are a gazillion sites like this... what's your point?
> 
> What do YOU believe?



Sorry, I don't understand your questions.

I believe in the Bible, this is one Bible, and one Spirit. But being humans, we have many interpretations.

Don't take it as personal, I am talking about the subject of this thread  : the prosperity gospel, not about gazillion sites. And I said : The prosperity gospel in the  real has  nothing in common with the being prosperous teaching (from inside to outside) of the  Bible. This is what I believe. And I gave examples.

Blessing.


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## Laela (Apr 19, 2010)

---------------


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## Laela (Apr 19, 2010)

---------------------


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## aymone (Apr 19, 2010)

Dear Laela, I can really tell that you love the Word but I think what the other sisters are saying here is that many preachers abuse it not only monetarily but also sexually. However, to the others such CreoleNat, you do have a point but I think that we need to pray for these people and everyone is responsible for reading their Bibles and asking God for understanding. 

I do believe the Lord wants us to be prosper and I do believe in reaping what you sow. For example in 2008 I got a job such so that I could pay my tithes and give offerings everywhere I felt touched so I could put this "prosperity gospel" at work if you will. Well, I did not just give to my church but I gave every where I could. I did not give because someone made me but I wanted to see His Glory. I did it with the heart of a child, it was fun and even days when I did not have money I was sad. Well a year later and even this year, I'm still reaping and something Laela can agree with I hope from the Bible is that I am reaping were I didn't sow.

My point is Christians have to be generous beings whether you give in the church, a non for profit, you share your christmas gifts, you buy groceries for a needy family. Because by taking care of the kingdom of God, not just the church, but like Jesus said, the children and the widows, you are sowing in the Kingdom of Heaven. 

Prosperity Gospel is sometimes fun to listen to but you should ask God: How o you want me to so into you kingdom and not care so much about the pastors, etc. But you want to make sure that when you die you not only have eternal life but that Jesus can say "well done my faithful daughter or son".

We are all call to grow in the Lord and also pray for others to grow and stay strong. I can say that one reason why David was so loved by God is that he had respect for those appointed by God even when they were flawed. He could have killed Saul in self defense, but he knew that God said do not touch my anointed. 

We should all be careful in pronouncing judgements against any servant of God, I used to do that but they are consequences. Just pray for them and anyone else you know who needs it. 

God bless all of you guys.


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## Guitarhero (Apr 19, 2010)

Laela said:


> Ahhhh.... well, this is really why we must be careful with the _traditions of men_...Jesus was very clear on measuring  anything by what is orthodox ...
> 
> I see where this argument is going and I'll stop here... we're starting to debate God's Word and it seems you're measuring all churches by the standard of the Catholic Church. I don't do religion, NatCreole.
> 
> Be blessed.



Excuse me?  Did I once say this?  I'm not mad, I just never mentioned any denomination, I mentioned orthodoxy in christianity meaning, the gospel as worded in scripture.   Just to clarify, belief in the Messiah, the resurrection of the dead, the death and resurrection of Jesus, etc. and tenets of the faith that make it christianity are orthodox beliefs of the religion.  It is a religion.  Just believing in him, yes, that can be a relationhip.  But if He says to get baptised, to help the poor, to do anything He prescribed in scripture, that's where  you do what He says to do.  

What we're discussing here is not any attack on anyone else's hopes for healing and prosperity.  I pray daily for these myself.  Sigh.  Seems I've hit a sensitive spot that has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand.  I mean, I don't get it.  No one here, as far as I can see, if against God richly blessing His flock.


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## Guitarhero (Apr 19, 2010)

aymone said:


> Dear Laela, I can really tell that you love the Word but I think what the other sisters are saying here is that many preachers abuse it not only monetarily but also sexually. However, to the others such CreoleNat, you do have a point but I think that we need to pray for these people and everyone is responsible for reading their Bibles and asking God for understanding.
> 
> We should all be careful in pronouncing judgements against any *servant* of God, I used to do that but they are consequences. Just pray for them and anyone else you know who needs it.
> 
> God bless all of you guys.



I never said any different.  Seriously though, when does discussion of a subject become an attack when people have applied scripture and are attempting to figure out how this aberration of mainstream and accepted traditional theology for all christendom has come into being AND, in light of these pastors' behavior, they are suspect of distorting the holy word of God?  Who are they serving?  God doesn't call us to just pray for people in danger, He calls us to hold fast to His word and remove ourselves from it.  I do not ever believe in sitting back and becoming the victim of a pastor just because he/she is a pastor.  I have known of people who would condemn the flock for leaving the ministry, telling them they are wrong to differ and that they will reap death.  Abusive?  Oh, yes.  I know of such.

*Matt.  18:6 -- “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to  sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round  his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.” 

Mark 9:42 --  "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it  would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck  and he were thrown into the sea.” 
*


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## aymone (Apr 19, 2010)

I am not saying that pastors, deacons, followers, etc do not abuse the word sometimes but when this occurs I think they should be prayed for, that's all I'm saying because no one is perfect.


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## Laela (Apr 19, 2010)

Aymone,

Thanks for your posts.

We all should pray for one another and be careful, for we are ALL members of the Body. Since this is a thread about "prosperity" teachers, it's been established and very clear that this alleged "abuse" is being directed toward them. And I have yet to see anyone substantiate their claim that these are _false teachers_. We all interpret Scriptures differently, does that truly make one a wolf in sheep clothing?

I looked back at the links that Crown posted.... and what bothers me about all this is this author (Victor Stephens) has taken snippets of what these preachers have said in various sermons, spoken in their own voices -- some with humor -- and taken what they say way out of context.  This author pretty much has done the very thing he is _accusing _those preachers of doing with God's Word.    


Listen to the *entire *sermon 


aymone said:


> I am not saying that pastors, deacons, followers, etc do not abuse the word sometimes but when this occurs I think they should be prayed for, that's all I'm saying because no one is perfect.


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## Ladybelle (Apr 19, 2010)

NitaChantell said:


> I'm very much broke for all intensive purposes, but I still effectively spread God's word. Through my life, my words, my actions, they see more and more of God in me each day. I think that goes far beyond what money can do.
> 
> Also, I'm not worried at all about having no money. I have faith that God will pull me through, and I know that even if I'm broke forever, He's still God, and He's done more than enough for me, so I don't spend time worrying about it.
> 
> ***I'm not trying to start a debate or argument, I just want you to see things in a new light. I'm listening too, to everyone's responses, as I have a lot to learn. Discussion amongst believers is very helpful when it's productive***




I think there were some very interesting & insightful comments in this thread and it further illustrates why we are instructed to "Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: "So that you  may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge" (Romans 3:4)  

There are plenty of false doctrines out there, hence the extreme importance that we as believers seek the truth (God's word) for ourselves and know how to apply it to our lives. 

I personally, don't believe that being broke until God calls me home is God's plan for me because I believe that he came to give me life & life more *abundantly*. And, that he became poor so that I might be rich & of course, riches supersede material things.


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## Guitarhero (Apr 20, 2010)

> "So that you  may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge" (Romans 3:4)



THIS!   Some of us have not only listened to some of this false doctrine,  but we've been involved in their churches and thus have the experience.  I am very thankful I turned away from it.  







Whether someone attempts to call me a hypocrite or not by highlighting Mark 7 scripture, well it just might double back.


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## Sharpened (Apr 20, 2010)

> *Ecclesiastes 1:18* - For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge  increases sorrow.



Jesus and the Apostles warned us several times to "let no man deceive you." Deception is never obvious or forthright, always appeals to the senses and snares the emotions. This is why we have to be forever vigilant towards the words we receive from ministers (Matthew 16:6, Matthew 16:12, 1 Corinthians 5:6, Galatians 5:9). I have been looking at the Word of Faith movement since I was a teen and it spiritually starved me. Sometimes, it is not only their lifestyle or what they teach, but what they do not teach or try to hide from the public.

Let us take for example Joel Olsteen. I first saw him on a TV program featuring the stadium he now teaches in. Something about him creeped me out, so I asked my sister what his ministry about and why was he so popular. She told me he preaches _spiritual candy_ for baby Christians. Wanting to see this in action, DH and I watched the guy a couple of times. What we saw and things we learned later sent up red flags.

His cool, soothing manner of speech, the polished image, the moving back and forth on the stage, the unnatural blinking of his eyes... these are the techniques of a highly skilled motivational speaker. What is wrong with that? Why use psychological techniques on millions of people? Who wants to be conned into believing in Christ?

Do a search on Youtube, "larry king olsteen" and check out the two interviews he did. What is wrong with the Gospel straight up, no chaser? What about taking up the cross and following Christ? What about death to self? What about battling and struggling against sin with help from the Holy Spirit? What about persecution? The truth would wreck his hustle, big time!

I am sorry, the vast majority of these televangelists are preaching a different Gospel, one designed to keep believers spiritually immature. Why? They are the hirelings we were warned about, those who lead His sheep astray. Please, do not take my word on it; pray and do your own research!


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## Crown (Apr 20, 2010)

I am  talking about the *label* _Prosperity Gospel_.
 All believers know God is Prosperity.
 Christians believe the Gospel is about Jesus-Christ and the Kingdom of God.

 We all know about Prosperity and our fleshly nature wants all the time material and physical prosperity.
 But let’s meditate on these :

 Is. 45: 7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

 Eccl. 7.14 *In the day of prosperity be joyful, but in the day of adversity consider*: God also hath set the one over against the other, to the end that man should find nothing after him.

 2Cor. 12.7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 12.8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 12.9 And he said unto me, *My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness*. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 12.10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

 Ph. 4.12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. 4.13 *I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me*.

 Mat. 16.24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 16.25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 16.26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 16.27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

 1Tim. 6.6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 6.7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. 6.8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. 6.9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

Blessing to all!


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## Uber (Jun 22, 2010)

Laela said:


> Ahh.. OK I wasn't clear. Thanks for explaining...well my take on the "Prosperity Gospel" is that it's a phrase coined by the media and others who don't agree with Word of Faith teachers. I'm a believer of the Word, not a doubter.
> 
> If what someone preach doesn't line up with the Word of God, I simply won't listen to them or I'll chew the fat, spit out the bones. The people who preach this "prosperity gospel" also include Creflo Dollar, TD Jakes, Paula White, Joyce Meyer, John Avanzini, Gregory Dickow, John Mumba, Mike Murdoch, John Hagee, Myles Munroe, Dr. Charles Stanley (http://www.intouch.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=cnKBIPNuEoG&b=4975635&ct=6700247) and countless others.
> 
> ...


 

Just putting my two cents worth in after trying to search the threads on what people's thoughts are on the prosperity gospel. I have not read all of the posts in this thread. But I got to this post and had to thank it. IA.

The preachers you listed are often referred to as false prophets. The bible clearly says a false prophet is one who takes you away from Jesus Christ. The above ministers consistently encourage in our spiritual walk with Christ whether that be prayer, fasting, worship, evangelism.

I thanked you for this post because sometimes when I read the posts or YT vids opposing the prosperity gospel it can be scary. And my main concern is making heaven not how many pounds I have in my bank account.

Not on any occasion have I ever  heard any one of these preachers mention that wealth won't come with good old hard work and perseverance(faith). Check out the lifestlye of those who are not experiencing monetary prosperity more often than not neither hard work or perserance (faith) is a part of it. In addition, time and time again in the bible, the prominent people in the bible had wealth. God loved blessing these people financially and material. All the wealth is His what would be the point of keeping it to himself. 

Even apostle Paul advocated minsters taking monetary gifts, he decided not to take gifts so that no one would a bad word to say about him. In fact the levites were set aside by God Himself to receive monetary gifts.


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## Mahalialee4 (Jun 22, 2010)

Natchitoches said:


> That's why I don't believe in it. Besides, the gospel is supposed to be referring to the Messiah coming.  These folks are all wrapped up in name-it-claim-it mumbo-jumbo magic and abracadabra, wealth pops up on a plate.  That's not the good news   It's a perk if God decides that it's for you, but it's not the good news.  And I think that the only ones truly gaining wealth are those in the pulpit preaching it because they are constantly asking poor folks to give money to get a financial miracle, as in a seed of faith.  I didn't know seeds were made of paper.



I agree. I find it interesting that the "faith to prosper" that they perpetuate is only realized by taking from those who have not.

What would the properity do if they stopped receiving all that money and had to go out and struggle like everyone else. They are not depending on God. They are depending on the people to support their greedy lifestyles.  Why don't they just practice what they are preaching to others.


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## Mahalialee4 (Jun 22, 2010)

asuperwoman said:


> My take on the prosperity message is this:
> 
> One of the main things God wants us to do as believers is spread the word. How can one spread the word broke? A broke/poor person only has time to worry about himself and where his or her next paycheck is coming from, a broke person can't effectively spread the word.
> 
> ...



It says the Son of man had no where to lay his head. He was spiritually rich. When he spoke to to multitudes it was not in a lavish building, and neither was He saying 'give me your money.'  The Word of God should not be preached for money. It is free. We received it freely. We have a two class system. Clergy and Laity. The Laity pay someone to preach the free Word of God to them. Then pay them so that the Clergy can live in lavish homes and drive expensive cars. "A workman is worthy of his hire", but aren't we all workers in the Lord's vineyard? Aren't we called as a body of believers to be a 'priesthood and a holy nation?'  Not a priesthood over the priesthood. How does that line up with God's Word?

I can show double honor even to others in the body who have showed great faith and example. Does that mean I am to hand over my money to them?  Is not the shepherd to take care of the sheep? Where does it imply that the sheep have to provide food for the shepherd?  Why does the Word say that 'many pastors have destroyed by vineyard?  Why does Ezekial 34 talk about shepherds that take the wool off the sheep, and that feed themselves?  Why does it say "Woe to the Shepherds!?"

I do not see anywhere that it is supposed to be the way it is being done. Please correct me if I am wrong.


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## Mahalialee4 (Jun 22, 2010)

Bess said:


> Just putting my two cents worth in after trying to search the threads on what people's thoughts are on the prosperity gospel. I have not read all of the posts in this thread. But I got to this post and had to thank it. IA.
> 
> The preachers you listed are often referred to as false prophets. The bible clearly says a false prophet is one who takes you away from Jesus Christ. The above ministers consistently encourage in our spiritual walk with Christ whether that be prayer, fasting, worship, evangelism.
> 
> ...



We no longer have a 'Levitical priesthood'. Our priest is Christ. The Lord is our shepherd. He told us we are not to call others Leaders.  Is there anything wrong with being wealthy? No.  But it is not a lottery.  In the Scripures the first ones to receive where to be the farmer, a stranger and the poor who were invited to eat the tithe. But many preach that the 'farmer has to give to him first, and out of what is left over...he is to pay his bills etc and feed his family.


It is wrong to defraud others using the Word to manipulate, or frighten people into giving money to feed a lavish lifestyle. Is there anything wrong with contributing to those in need in the body? No. It should not be one-sided...as in, I preach the free word of God...and you give me money. That is how I see it. If the purpose of the preaching is to make it a full time job so that you can have all your needs and wants met as a 'pastor', then I do really question that.  I guess the point for me is: "Where is their faith that God will provide for them, without having to take from the sheep who are struggling, some on welfare, and U.I.C., single moms etc. barely scraping by, and poor widows. And those that are giving are often treating it as a 'lottery', a 'su su' club.

Why would we think that their methods are right, when it says we are to give 'freely and not under compulsion?  Most do give under a feeling of compulsion...that God will punish them if they don't, that God will only be good to them if they give money to someone else. I understand that the Scriptures say that the money given is meant  for the 'poor and the widows and the fatherless children'....so how does this fit in with the Prosperity Doctrine....Give me money so God will bless you....and they never seem to get enough of the money.  You see it on their back, and where they live, and in what they drive....it really raises some serious questions as to the motives of such men. They are not looking out for the widows and the poor and the orphans. It is the other way around.  

I have to ask this question:  If they were not receiving the money from the poor, the widows and the orphans to support them and keep them from having to work, would they be willing to 'sacrifice their time' to preach the Word, and to comfort the people? Would they suddenly 'lose their calling' they claim is on their lives?  I would like to see them work with their own hands, and then demonstrate their faith in God. I would like them to demonstrate 'being content with what they have', and not making it a weekly habit of having their hands out for more. I would like to see them STOP being a bottomless pit of receiving money for themselves. I would like to see them take the offerings and give it to those in need among them and not be money changers.  If they are taking from the poor and then just returning what the poor gave them, to me that is just being a 'money changer'. They often do this 'through their boards', and claim that they are innocent of what happens.


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## Mahalialee4 (Jun 22, 2010)

Natchitoches said:


> I, too, believe that people can be misguided by their reading of scripture.
> I see Jesus speaking from His divinity, not humanity with that statement.  He was showing them that He was the fulfillment and that "I AM THAT I AM,"  which is what God's name was throughout Jewish history.  He was demonstrating that He is part of the God-head (from a christian perspective).  Afterall, Jews were taught in scripture that God is One and has no physical form.
> 
> 
> ...



"I Am That I Am".  YES. And that is His name forever. Eyah Asher Eyah (Ahaya Ashur Ahaya). From Exodus to Revelation it is stated.


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## Mahalialee4 (Jun 22, 2010)

Crown said:


> I like this :
> http://www.layhands.com/HearGodsVoice.htm
> Another example concerns Peter.  In Galatians 2:11-14, Paul said that  Peter had wrongly separated himself from Gentile Christians because he  was swayed by the opinions of other people, and in turn Peter swayed  other Jewish Christians to do the same.  In this case, an apostle was  led astray by the voice of other Christians, and this apostle led other  Christians astray!  It's easy for us to be deceived, which is why we  need to know how to discern what we're hearing from the "voice" of other  people (more on this later).  All of us have preconceived biases which  act as "filters" when we read the Bible, and therefore *even your pastor  or my pastor can be deceived and teach us things that are incorrect*.  If  an apostle can be deceived then certainly a pastor can too!  *This is  why it's important for each one of us to study the Bible for ourselves  and ask God for discernment so that we can recognize the Truth when we  see it*.
> --
> Or the lie when we see it.



I truly agree. We need the Spirit of Truth to protect us against the Spirit of Error.


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## Mahalialee4 (Jun 22, 2010)

aymone said:


> Dear Laela, I can really tell that you love the Word but I think what the other sisters are saying here is that many preachers abuse it not only monetarily but also sexually. However, to the others such CreoleNat, you do have a point but I think that we need to pray for these people and everyone is responsible for reading their Bibles and asking God for understanding.
> 
> I do believe the Lord wants us to be prosper and I do believe in reaping what you sow. For example in 2008 I got a job such so that I could pay my tithes and give offerings everywhere I felt touched so I could put this "prosperity gospel" at work if you will. Well, I did not just give to my church but I gave every where I could. I did not give because someone made me but I wanted to see His Glory. I did it with the heart of a child, it was fun and even days when I did not have money I was sad. Well a year later and even this year, I'm still reaping and something Laela can agree with I hope from the Bible is that I am reaping were I didn't sow.
> 
> ...



Have you considered the Scripture in 1 John 2:27 where it states "we all have an anointing?" Unfortunately, many only apply that to Pastors and Bishops etc. when it comes to "the anointing, and use Saul and David and "touch not my anointed". Pastors do not have a different 'anointing'.  There is 'one anointing' according to Scripture. It says He gave "gifts in men". It says there is One Spirit. That Spirit gives gifts severally as He wills. However, it says: One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism....One Spirit.

To claim that 'I am anointed' and other members of the body are not does not agree with that Scripture.   ..."You ALL HAVE AN ANOINTING.....THAT ANOINTING TEACHES YOU....AND DOES NOT LIE...." and it was given within the context of a warning "regarding those who are trying to deceive you." 1 John 2:27.


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## Guitarhero (Jun 22, 2010)

Laela said:


> CreoleNat,
> 
> I'll try my best to explain* Religion vs Relationship.*.. in the OT, there was the Law, commandments that, if broken, were punishable by curse or death. When Jesus came, he came not to do away with the Law but to _fulfill _it. HE became our High Priest, to replace the priest in the Tabernacle of the Congregation. He was cursed on the cross and died for our sins so we no longer have to bring sacrificial offerings for every sin (Exodus, Leviticus). So there is no need to do all these "external rituals" The Law has now been fulfilled internally, when we accept Jesus in our hearts. The Law (commandments) is now in me and I honor them in my heart.
> 
> ...




Months later, this was truly a good thread.  So, I'm responding.  Per the bolded, many protestant people wrongfully assume that only they are free from "religion" but religion is the vehicle through carrying out the commands of the scriptures.  Jesus commands us to love one another.  That is not an option.  Would someone then assume that it's a religion rather than a relationship? He commands us to get baptised.  He commands many things and has actually told us He didn't come to change the scriptures at all.  

There are many non-orthodox faiths under the umbrella of christianity that don't force dresses, but expect it for women on Sunday.  They also expect tithes.  Church weddings?  Religion or relationship?  Your church is the "religious" physical  vehicle through which you observe your spiritual relationship with God.  Me thinks that people do not comprehend that "religion" doesn't take precedence over the relationship with God because without it, there wouldn't be any "religious" observances at all.


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