# Abortion vs. Fornication vs. Homosexuality vs. Divorce



## cocoberry10 (Sep 7, 2008)

Ladies:

*PLEASE KEEP THIS THREAD CIVIL (I WILL REQUEST IT GET LOCKED IF NOT).*

This has seriously been on my heart lately, and I want us to have a healthy, spiritual dialogue on this topic.

With the announcement of Palin's 17 year old daughter being pregnant out of wedlock, her plans to marry the "baby daddy," and Palin's stance against abortion, I MUST ASK:

Why does it seem like sometimes we "categorize" "sin" in terms of what's acceptable and what's not.  I know not everyone does this, but I find this a lot from those of us that follow the Lord.

How can the sentiment be that Christians should be against a woman's right to choose (legally, not just morally), but we live in a society where we allow divorce (legally)? Every election, we continue to debate a woman's right to choose, but we've never debated a person's right to divorce (unless that divorce is due to adultery).  I must ask, what would happen if that became a focal point of these elections? What if a Presidential candidate decided that one could no longer divorce unless their spouse committed adultery (and then, only if the spouse that was the victim of adultery wanted the divorce)?

Likewise, we debate whether two people of the same sex should be allowed to marry, yet we don't debate whether there should be some type of constitutional/legal ban on allowing two heterosexual people to engage in premarital sexual acts.  I can't help but feel that we are hypocrites (not all of us). But I wanted to discuss this, since these topics are frequently a part of both the church and the political structure (sorry it's the Christian Lawyer psycho-analyzing side of me coming out).

I think we can handle this! I hope I'm RIGHT


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## Ramya (Sep 7, 2008)

Well for me I think all of it is wrong but at the same time I was never able to vote on the other issues. It's not like I had a real choice about divorce or premarital sex cause if I did, I would take the same stance that I do on abortion and marriage. And just b/c I don't have a vote on divorce or premarital sex does not mean that I shouldn't take a stance at all on other issues.


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## Crackers Phinn (Sep 7, 2008)

I really wish you'd put this in the political forum, but since you didn't.....

The OP is absolutely right.  It's terribly hypocritical that certain sins are weighed to a greater or lesser degree at election time.  It's especially appalling  when sins get remixed and remastered to fit a political agenda (see Sarah Palin's illegitimate grandchild).   

Therein lies the problem. Politics has no rules whereas religion has many.  This is why the argument for the separation of church and state is valid.  When you blend politics with religion, it's religion that gets sullied every single time.  

There is a very simple political reason for exploiting the evils of one sin over another.  They are called votes.


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## Ms.Honey (Sep 8, 2008)

I have never voted for a politician simply because they "say" they share my moral views and never will. God never held the king to be the moral compass for the nation in the OT, he left that job to the priests/pastors. He also didn't have the priests of Israel going over to the Philistines trying to make them live by his laws either.

 I vote for candidates who agree with my stance on non moral issues such as better schools, gas prices, national health care etc. What do I care about what gays do? That's their business. The Republican candidates always court the church with some mess to try and keep us from looking at all the jacked up stuff they do. It's a smoke screen and we fall for it every time, foolishly thinking they want anything to do with us other than to gain our votes.  Roe vs. Wade will NEVER be overturned. They keep promising and STILL haven't done it after HOW many DECADES? They know it and the religious right leadership knows it too The bigwigs get their palms greased and insure the pols get the votes.

America is not a Christian country. If it were, the founding fathers would have stated Jesus instead of God (they weren't all Christians either and didn't wanted His name added). We are not the only folks who live here y'all. They as citizens should have the right to a civil union as citizens,taxpayers, voters. Denying them is NOT going to stop them from shacking is it? Wed or unwed, grown folks gonna do what grown folks wanna do.

I still don't get the argument that we as Christians are personally affected by what *consenting adults* do with their own bodies Sinners sin that's why they're called sinners. God gave them free will and they are free moral agents with the right under God to do with their bodies as the see fit. Now if Jesus ain't stopping them from destroying themselves, why do we as Christians feel the need toerplexed 

You can not ever be able to sucessfully legislate morality. Never have, never will. Why aren't they fighting to ban folks from fornicating and shacking? At least gays aren't bringing unwanted babies into the world. I mean, isn't that more detrimental to our communities than gays consenting to have sex with each other in the privacy of their own bedrooms? You know WHY they won't fight for it? It's because THEY DON'T CARE. Just like they don't care what gays do or that women are having abortions. Besides they know that they wouldn't have a snowballs chance in hell if they went after them to win an election. That's most of the voting public AND church congregations in this nation.

Wouldn't it make more sense to pick a candidate by the things that actually *DO* affect us and our families personally like S.S., taxes, affordable healthcare, the environment etc. instead of choosing one because we want to stop grown folks from having legal unions and abortions?

 Now if you like the Republican Parties policies then fine but don't let the impossible promise of halting abortions sway your decisions, it'll NEVER happen and even if it did it STILL wouldn't make a difference. Butchers with clothes hangers will always be available to take up the slack


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## cocoberry10 (Sep 8, 2008)

JCoily said:


> *I really wish you'd put this in the political forum, but since you didn't.....*
> 
> The OP is absolutely right. It's terribly hypocritical that certain sins are weighed to a greater or lesser degree at election time. It's especially appalling when sins get remixed and remastered to fit a political agenda (see Sarah Palin's illegitimate grandchild).
> 
> ...


 
JCoily...GURL, I SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO wanted to put this thread in OT or the Political Forum, BUT....I DO NOT want to end up in the land of the banned.  I REALLY want to put it there, but I cannot imagine it not turning into a crazy thread.  The only way it can go there is if we take the religious aspect out of it (i.e. for those that are anti-abortion, anti-homosexuality, how do you resolve being okay with divorce and fornication (and not making these things illegal except under the circumstances I mentioned). Now, if you want to start that thread, I'll be the first one to respond


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## cocoberry10 (Sep 8, 2008)

alabama said:


> Well for me I think all of it is wrong but at the same time I was never able to vote on the other issues. It's not like I had a real choice about divorce or premarital sex cause if I did, I would take the same stance that I do on abortion and marriage. And just b/c I don't have a vote on divorce or premarital sex does not mean that I shouldn't take a stance at all on other issues.


 
I can agree with these points and I understand. I think what frustrates me is how some of these candidates will stand up and say "so and so cannot do this" when they are doing unGodly things too.

I specifically chose Divorce, b/c soooooooooooo many Christians are divorced, and it's almost like become completely normal to be divorced, yet many of these same Christians are fighting for a federal amendment to prevent homosexuals from being married.

Even this situation with Palin's daughter. I understand that she got pregnant out of wedlock and that she will have this child b/c they don't believe in abortion (believe it or not, I'm glad she's going to have the child). But they are trying to "clean it up" by making her marry the "BABY DADDY".  Really, it's not different to me. And I'm not saying that to pass judgment, but it aggravates me how people will stand up and act like they are so righteous. We are ALL SINNERS, SAVED BY GRACE


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## cocoberry10 (Sep 8, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> *Roe vs. Wade will NEVER be overturned.* They keep promising and STILL haven't done it after HOW many DECADES? They know it and the religious right leadership knows it too The bigwigs get their palms greased and insure the pols get the votes.
> 
> *You can not ever be able to sucessfully legislate morality*. Never have, never will.


 
The bolded is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO true, and I always say the red part too!

Your whole post was on point, but I had to highlight these points!


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## yokoyokogirl (Sep 8, 2008)

I have never understood the hype about abortion in politics? And even gay marriage...maybe I'm just ignorant but it seems like sooooo many more topics are of way more importance. I'm not the most devout Catholic, but I do follow the relgion and believe in it-to an extent. I guess I'm Pro-choice, Pro-gay in my thinking, but *not* because I support it--I just don't care. I'm concerned with the violence/crime, homeless, drug abuse, and health care issues. Why do politicians seem to focus on these topics, when there's so much more that should be addressed? Same thing with Cheney and his gay daughter...And since living abroad, I'm not bombared with news on the hour every hr, so I'm not up to date at all on any of the politicians' stances.


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## Cichelle (Sep 8, 2008)

I know this is going to be unpopular, but sometimes I think the very reason that these tactics are so effective is because everyone _is _a sinner. When you are down and out, doing wrong and etc...then you can cast someone as worse than you, it makes you feel better. *Of course who would admit to this?* The gays and the gynecologist who perform abortions and the women who "murder their baybees" are SOOOOOOO horrible. _Hey, I'm not so bad. _ 

These two issues are really perfect for manipulating folks and making them look away from the much bigger issues in this country and world, not to mention their own foreclosure and the pink slip they just got last week. People will actually vote against their best interests for the sake of zygotes. I mean, you must be a good person if you try to save _baybees_. Right? I mean, only monsters wouldn't want to save _baybees_! Meanwhile, the very things they support doing sometimes contribute to the suffering and death of actual babies and women around the world. This was the lesson I had to learn the hard way. It was a slap in the face.

The truth is lots of folks don't DO much of anything but taking up a cause like this is easy and gives the illusion that they are really fighting the good fight. It makes them feel more righteous and like Gd is smiling down on them. 

Okay, let me say I'm not talking about everyone who is "pro-life" or against gay people having the same rights as heterosexuals. But I really believe that it is a big part of some people's devotion to these issues. The language the right-wing has developed to talk about these things, the propaganda and distortions contributes greatly to the effectiveness. 

And on a political level, I don't believe some of these folks give two craps about embryos or what gay people do in privacy. It works. They use it. But if it didn't work...well. For instance, notice, that you don't see folks standing outside of fertility clinics screaming "baybee murderers!!!!!" But fertility clinics have "murdered" and "abused" baybees for years and years. They destroy embryos or otherwise cause their deaths on the regular. But going after women with fertility problems is not politically advantageous right now. What would THAT look like? I've seen and talked to some folks who are consistent and against fertility clinics, but this is not a huge part of the conversation on the political level...because it would not gain them votes. But what about the embryos....hmmm? (Eventually, if they can find a way to make people ignore the crying infertile woman, they might march this out there, when the time is right. ) 

Gay folks are easy targets. Hey, it says right in the bible that it is an "abomination". So Gd is really smiling down on you if you're against that, right? But how come the politicians don't rally folks to shut down Red Lobster? Eating shrimp is also an abomination. But you see, such things will not win you any votes. Plus, shrimp tastes good.


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## cocoberry10 (Sep 8, 2008)

*This is ONE OF THE BEST POSTS TO ANY THREAD I'VE EVER READ ON THIS FORUM IN 4 YEARS OF BEING HERE  You may have just inspired me to post this thread in the political forum (but I'm coming for you if I get banned).  I will have to word it a little differently, since it won't be in the Christian forum (although I want us to continue this discussion in this forum too)*



Cichelle said:


> I know this is going to be unpopular, but sometimes I think the very reason that these tactics are so effective is because everyone _is _a sinner. When you are down and out, doing wrong and etc...then you can cast someone as worse than you, it makes you feel better. *Of course who would admit to this?* The gays and the gynecologist who perform abortions and the women who "murder their baybees" are SOOOOOOO horrible. _Hey, I'm not so bad. _
> 
> These two issues are really perfect for manipulating folks and making them look away from the much bigger issues in this country and world, not to mention their own foreclosure and the pink slip they just got last week. People will actually vote against their best interests for the sake of zygotes. I mean, you must be a good person if you try to save _baybees_. Right? I mean, only monsters wouldn't want to save _baybees_! Meanwhile, the very things they support doing sometimes contribute to the suffering and death of actual babies and women around the world. This was the lesson I had to learn the hard way. It was a slap in the face.
> 
> ...


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## yokoyokogirl (Sep 8, 2008)

Cichelle said:


> I know this is going to be unpopular, but sometimes I think the very reason that these tactics are so effective is because everyone _is _a sinner. When you are down and out, doing wrong and etc...then you can cast someone as worse than you, it makes you feel better. *Of course who would admit to this?* The gays and the gynecologist who perform abortions and the women who "murder their baybees" are SOOOOOOO horrible. _Hey, I'm not so bad. _
> 
> These two issues are really perfect for manipulating folks and making them look away from the much bigger issues in this country and world, not to mention their own foreclosure and the pink slip they just got last week. People will actually vote against their best interests for the sake of zygotes. I mean, you must be a good person if you try to save _baybees_. Right? I mean, only monsters wouldn't want to save _baybees_! Meanwhile, the very things they support doing sometimes contribute to the suffering and death of actual babies and women around the world. This was the lesson I had to learn the hard way. It was a slap in the face.
> 
> ...



Nicely put.

Honestly I could never figure why in the 2004 election gays were such a big deal. Now I see. What you said makes perfect sense. 

I know there are a lot "abominations" in the Bible, but I didn't know eating shrimp was one!!! I eat shrimp nearly once a week--heck I had it for dinner tonite!!!


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## Mamita (Sep 8, 2008)

cocoberry10 said:


> Ladies:
> 
> 
> How can the sentiment be that Christians should be against a woman's right to choose (legally, not just morally), *but we live in a society *where we allow divorce (legally)? Every election, we continue to debate a woman's right to choose, but we've never debated a person's right to divorce (unless that divorce is due to adultery).  I must ask, what would happen if that became a focal point of these elections? What if a Presidential candidate decided that one could no longer divorce unless their spouse committed adultery (and then, only if the spouse that was the victim of adultery wanted the divorce)?
> ...



Sister, u said it all there... we live in a society. Society has been corrupted since the end of the OT. I say since then because during it SOME kingdoms had SOME of their kings have direct rlps with God, since as far as i know there's been none. i could be wrong though

anyway, u said it we live in a society. God told us to live IN the world but NOT be OF the world. that's all there is to know. There will come a day soon where there will be a huge difference between human laws and God's standards, and u'll have to choose, we'll all have to choose. Now homosexuals can marry, doesn't mean u're allowed by God's standards to become gay and get married. the only thing He asks of us is to not BREAK the law down here. If u look at it it's totally possible to live by his standards and not break the law, cause the basics are pretty close to the commendments do'nt steal don't kill etc... u're not required to vote, as a christian i don't vote, i do'nt break the law....

there's just a difference between the people of God and the human laws down here. and what "society" deems acceptable and not acceptable. I know because i live here, but i wish u understood how much i don't give a hoot about what society thinks is acceptable and what isn't lol. I follow God, it's all i need to know, it's the only thing that makes me feel good day in and day out and the only thing that will last AFTER this world goes to ashes...


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## kbragg (Sep 8, 2008)

We already legislate morality. It is illegal to steal, murder, lie under oath, assult, abuse children, rape, and the list goes on.

The issue comes when people try and re-define what life is. From the moment of conception, all the genes, DNA, etc. are present. There's nothing else that those "cells" can become but a human being. So where do we get the idea that an unborn baby is not somehow "human?"

The sad thing is life is defined as whether or not the woman wants the baby. If a man throws a woman down the stairs while she's pregnant he'll get charged with assult and fetal homicide. If someone slips a pregnant woman the abortion pill, it won't be ignored because she wants the baby. But if she doesn't want the child then it's just a parasite or just a group of cells, etc.

Yes women have spontaneous miscarriages. Old people have spontaneous heart attacks too. So does that make it ok to kill them since after all it 'could' happen naturally?

As far as the other 3 topics, those are between consenting adults and really all 4 should be up to the states to decide, not the federal gov. anyway.


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## Mamita (Sep 8, 2008)

hmm i may have gotten a lil off topic, i'm sorry i'm french i probably didn't get the political part of it, i have a president that married an ex model so u know lol

and i seme to have a lot to say today i apologize if i wen toff topic with my reply lol


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## Mamita (Sep 8, 2008)

yokoyokogirl said:


> Nicely put.
> 
> Honestly I could never figure why in the 2004 election gays were such a big deal. Now I see. What you said makes perfect sense.
> 
> I know there are a lot "abominations" in the Bible, but I didn't know eating shrimp was one!!! I eat shrimp nearly once a week--heck I had it for dinner tonite!!!



naah whatever was said in the OT about something not being good to eat was changed in the NT when jesus said something like it's not what goes in ur mouth that corrupts u but what comes out of it

girl i eat everything i can mhmhm lol


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## amara11 (Sep 8, 2008)

Cichelle,

All I can do is 

You and others like jcoily, ms.honey, cocoberry, have said it so eloquently.

We all love to pretend like we don't judge others but a lot of Christians get caught up in being morality police. Judgment is rampant. We as Christian's should be extremely careful of that...

For example. I don't agree with abortions for the most part, but I cannot in the purest of heart say that a woman (or child) who was raped, molested, or a victim of incest shouldn't have the right to choose. The best that I can do is make sure that I keep myself on a straight path and make sure that I'm not getting any abortions. I have control over me. I don't have control over anyone else. If God gave the people of the world free will, what makes us think we have the right to restrict that?

When we spend our time trying to point out the dust on everyone else's slate, what time is left then to clean up our own?

I think sometimes people get so caught up in the species of the tree that they completely miss and ignore the 'forest' message that God has for us in the bible.

Some of us have gotten so caught up in studying the details 'Right & Wrong 101' that we don't understand what the course objectives are in the first place.

All we can do is live in the spirit of the real messages of the bible. 
Now there are a few verses that come to my mind. Matthew 6:1-15

*1* “Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven. 
*2* “So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. *3* “But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, *4* so that your giving will be in secret; and your Father who sees _what is done_ in secret will reward you. 
*5* “When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. *6* “But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees _what is done_ in secret will reward you. 
*7* “And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. *8* “So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. 
*9* “Pray, then, in this way:  ‘Our Father who is in heaven,  Hallowed be Your name. 
*10* ‘Your kingdom come.  Your will be done,  On earth as it is in heaven. 
*11* ‘Give us this day our daily bread. 
*12* ‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 
*13* ‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.’]
 *14* “For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. *15* “But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Yes legal morality is enforced, but it is NOT successful. Just because it is against the law, does not mean it no longer occurs. What it does do however, is push the sin into darkness where *man* cannot see. 

Most murderers don't kill in broad daylight in front of a large crowd- but they still kill. And murder is illegal.

Most thieves don't steal where the store clerk can see them, but they still steal. And stealing is illegal.

Legality doesn't banish the act, it only pushes it into hiding, and it becomes pervasive and sly.

Most gays aren't doing much more than PDA in front of you (if that). They still engage in homosexual acts behind closed doors. Do you think that would change if homosexual relationships are not recognized by law?

Most women who get abortions won't say a word to you about it and neither will their physician. They'll continue getting them until they either learn their lesson, or can no longer get pregnant. Do you think that will change if abortion becomes illegal? Trust me, people will come up with more sinister and unsafe ways to do whatever they want with their own *God given *free will.

Now, this doesn't mean we need to get rid of laws, because many have due place in society. 

God said what He said in the bible. But He gave us free will as to whether we follow it. We can choose to obey, or we can be disobedient. If we choose to be disobedient, *HE*, not John McCain, not Barack Obama, not the senate, not any governor, but God, will deal with us in His way.


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## amara11 (Sep 8, 2008)

cocoberry10 said:


> JCoily...GURL, I SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO wanted to put this thread in OT or the Political Forum, BUT....I DO NOT want to end up in the land of the banned.  I REALLY want to put it there, but I cannot imagine it not turning into a crazy thread.  The only way it can go there is if we take the religious aspect out of it (i.e. for those that are anti-abortion, anti-homosexuality, how do you resolve being okay with divorce and fornication (and not making these things illegal except under the circumstances I mentioned). Now, if you want to start that thread, I'll be the first one to respond





There is really a strong backlash against *Christian* discussions anywhere but here. Sometimes I get annoyed, but I often think of how many people have been judged, disrespected, an hurt severely by the words and actions of fellow *Christians*.

We need to stop trying to do God's job. We need to stop expecting the government to do God's job. We need to stop expecting lawyers, doctors, and teachers to do God's job. We need to stop trying to be God's soldiers in the army of morality and condemnation-and start being soldiers and messengers of His love and His word, because only God can be in the army of the former, He needs and wants us in the latter.

It just saddens me that some of the people I know have had such harmful and ugly things said and done to them by Christians. So much so that even my own mention of my faith or relationship with Christ strikes a chord with them. God wants us to bring people to Him NOT push them away by pointing our judgemental index fingers. So many of us are pushing more and more people outside and away from Christianity.

Remember, sometimes the only way you can push someone all the way out of the door, is to step *outside* of that room yourself. Be very careful about the people you try to exclude when fighting in that war that God doesn't even need you in to win


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## pinkchocolatedaisy (Sep 8, 2008)

Thank you... I am not here to judge others on their choices. While I may not agree with certain things such as homosexuality, abortion, etc, I am not going to point the finger at anybody. I am more concerned about things such as healthcare or schools or getting pedophiles behind bars. I have children; I don't want to teach them that it's ok to judge others just b/c it's morally wrong. Isn't even more "wrong" to judge the sinners? I am not perfect and I will not condemn others for their actions... why is that the  very devout and religious folks seem to forget that part "judge not that you not be judged..."



yokoyokogirl said:


> I *have never understood the hype about abortion in politics? And even gay marriage...maybe I'm just ignorant but it seems like sooooo many more topics are of way more importance*. I'm not the most devout Catholic, but I do follow the relgion and believe in it-to an extent. I *guess I'm Pro-choice, Pro-gay in my thinking, but not because I support it--I just don't care. I'm concerned with the violence/crime, homeless, drug abuse, and health care issues*. Why do politicians seem to focus on these topics, when there's so much more that should be addressed? Same thing with Cheney and his gay daughter...And since living abroad, I'm not bombared with news on the hour every hr, so I'm not up to date at all on any of the politicians' stances.


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## cocoberry10 (Sep 8, 2008)

*I truly respect your post and opinion!!!!!!!!*


Mamita said:


> Sister, u said it all there... we live in a society. Society has been corrupted since the end of the OT. I say since then because during it SOME kingdoms had SOME of their kings have direct rlps with God, since as far as i know there's been none. i could be wrong though
> 
> anyway, u said it we live in a society. God told us to live IN the world but NOT be OF the world. that's all there is to know. There will come a day soon where there will be a huge difference between human laws and God's standards, and u'll have to choose, we'll all have to choose. Now homosexuals can marry, doesn't mean u're allowed by God's standards to become gay and get married. the only thing He asks of us is to not BREAK the law down here. If u look at it it's totally possible to live by his standards and not break the law, cause the basics are pretty close to the commendments do'nt steal don't kill etc... u're not required to vote, as a christian i don't vote, i do'nt break the law....
> 
> there's just a difference between the people of God and the human laws down here. and what "society" deems acceptable and not acceptable. I know because i live here, but i wish u understood how much i don't give a hoot about what society thinks is acceptable and what isn't lol. I follow God, it's all i need to know, it's the only thing that makes me feel good day in and day out and the only thing that will last AFTER this world goes to ashes...


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## kbragg (Sep 8, 2008)

mshottienelson said:


> Thank you... I am not here to judge others on their choices. While I may not agree with certain things such as homosexuality, abortion, etc, I am not going to point the finger at anybody. *I am more concerned about things such as healthcare or schools or getting pedophiles behind bars.* I have children; I don't want to teach them that it's ok to judge others just b/c it's morally wrong. Isn't even more "wrong" to judge the sinners? I am not perfect and I will not condemn others for their actions... why is that the very devout and religious folks seem to forget that part "judge not that you not be judged..."


 
Well aren't you juding here too? Should we not judge someone who kills another human being and just let them go free too? But we've already allowed 40 million murders already. It's not about judging someone as in self righteously looking down on some one because of how they dress or where they hang out. It's about the slaughter of 40 million children who never even got the opportunity to live. Who never had a chance to see the sun rise. Who never knew they're siblings. Who never got a chance to praise their creator. This is unpopular, but I have to say it. Women do have a choice. We have a choice to use to use a condom when laying down with the man or flat out saying no. And yes I am putting the responsibility on the women because 80% of our households are single parent homes and we have the highest percentage of abortions in our communities. Let's not talk about the 5% of women who get abortions due to rape, incest, or the safety of the mother. I'm talking about the 95% who kill their babies as a form of birth control.

Life begins at conception. Period. It's not about "jdging" anybody and frankly, Christians use the whole judgement line too often to avoid taking a stand for what's right. When are these innocent children afforded human rights?

Ok, let me ask you this then. Why is the viability of a child based solely on the desire of the mother to keep him or her? For example, what if we found out that the government was slipping abortion drugs into our food and water supply for population control? Would it be no big deal because after all, it's just a bunch of cells.

But it's the mother's right to choose whether that child lives or dies right? Last I checked, that was God's job.

So enough with the "thou shalt not judge stuff. Read the Bible cover to cover and see what the Bible really says about judgement.

Abortion should be illegal, just like any other form of killing. Stop fighting for the right to kill the babies and instead use your frickin brain and protect yourself. Be responsible for your own actions, and don't take someone elses life because they don't quite fit into yours.

As you can see, I am passionate about this topic. It has nothing to do with religion, judgement, or "my truth." It's about taking someone else's life before they've even had an opportunity to live it.

I'm sure I have now permanentally lost my black card now.


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## Grow_it_out (Sep 9, 2008)

Sin is sin.


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## Mamita (Sep 9, 2008)

cocoberry10 said:


> *I truly respect your post and opinion!!!!!!!!*



gaaasp thank u i felt like a real idiot after i read other replies and saw u were talking more politics hihi eeeeh real joke of a world we live in nowadays lol that's my conclusion lol


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## momi (Sep 9, 2008)

This thread is whack ( yes I went back to the 80's on that one).

That is all.


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## kbragg (Sep 9, 2008)

momi said:


> This thread is whack ( yes I went back to the 80's on that one).
> 
> That is all.


 
"Crack is whack" - Whitney Houston

Sorry this post is completely off topic and worthless, but I couldn't help it


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## Ms.Honey (Sep 10, 2008)

kbragg said:


> Well aren't you juding here too? Should we not judge someone who kills another human being and just let them go free too? But we've already allowed 40 million murders already. It's not about judging someone as in self righteously looking down on some one because of how they dress or where they hang out. It's about the slaughter of 40 million children who never even got the opportunity to live. Who never had a chance to see the sun rise. Who never knew they're siblings. Who never got a chance to praise their creator. This is unpopular, but I have to say it. Women do have a choice. We have a choice to use to use a condom when laying down with the man or flat out saying no. And yes I am putting the responsibility on the women because 80% of our households are single parent homes and we have the highest percentage of abortions in our communities. Let's not talk about the 5% of women who get abortions due to rape, incest, or the safety of the mother. I'm talking about the 95% who kill their babies as a form of birth control.
> 
> Life begins at conception. Period. It's not about "jdging" anybody and frankly, Christians use the whole judgement line too often to avoid taking a stand for what's right. When are these innocent children afforded human rights?
> 
> ...


 
I don't believe in abortion and I believe life begin at conception too BUT I also know that no president has ever been able to overturn Roe vs. Wade and never will so I don't make that a requirement to get my vote. If Reagan couldn't do it, McCain sure as heck ain't gonna be able to do it 

Murder, rape, robbery etc. are sins against others (legislation hasn't stopped those either btw). Abortion and homosexuality, are sins against your own body. If a person wants to screw themselves up that's their own business. You want to screw somebody else up, nope, now we have a problem. 

Before anyone states that an unborn baby is a separate person from it's mother, I don't go for that, "It's just a fetus crap" it's a baby and that's what I call them, from conception until it's birth it's mother is it's god and they are ONE. As it's god she decides whether it get's proper nutrition, whether it's exposed to smoke, drugs and alcohol and unfortunately ultimately whether it lives or dies. Repealing Roe vs. Wade will not change those dynamics, it is what it is. Do I wish women didn't choose to murder their babies? Yes. Can we ever stop them? Nope, they'll continue to do it no matter how many laws are on the books. 

We can't assume that these women have made a flippant decision to kill their babies. It can be heartwrenching decisions for them when they "feel" they have no other choice, no other way out We can all say they shouldn't have gotten pregnant, well shoulda, coulda, woulda they're there now so now what? Does McCain plan to extend free healthcare, childcare, food, clothing and shelter and college educations for these babies to these women who will be denied abortions  or does he want to get rid of welfare too? If you plan to take away the only solution some of these women can come up with then there needs to be a viable solution to take it's place.

As I stated before, we will never be able to SUCCESSFULLY legislate morality. God giving us the ten commandments and it's outcome has never stopped folks from breaking them and John McCain will never stop folks from destroying their own bodies no matter how many campaign promises he makes. HE and the religious leaders that back him know it.


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## leeshbeesh (Sep 10, 2008)

kbragg said:


> *So enough with the "thou shalt not judge stuff. Read the Bible cover to cover and see what the Bible really says about judgement.*



Agreed  because people LOVE to be able to say don't judge me, only God can judge me. i guess they forget that in the end HE REALLY WILL


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## Crackers Phinn (Sep 10, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> We can't assume that these women have made a flippant decision to kill their babies. It can be heartwrenching decisions for them when they "feel" they have no other choice, no other way out We can all say they shouldn't have gotten pregnant, well shoulda, coulda, woulda they're there now so now what? Does McCain plan to extend free healthcare, childcare, food, clothing and shelter and college educations for these babies to these women who will be denied abortions  or does he want to get rid of welfare too? *If you plan to take away the only solution some of these women can come up with then there needs to be a viable solution to take it's place.*



This whole portion bears repeating particularly the bolded.


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## pinkchocolatedaisy (Sep 10, 2008)

It seems we're pretty much in agreement. off to PM you. 



kbragg said:


> Well aren't you juding here too? Should we not judge someone who kills another human being and just let them go free too? But we've already allowed 40 million murders already. It's not about judging someone as in self righteously looking down on some one because of how they dress or where they hang out. It's about the slaughter of 40 million children who never even got the opportunity to live. Who never had a chance to see the sun rise. Who never knew they're siblings. Who never got a chance to praise their creator. This is unpopular, but I have to say it. Women do have a choice. We have a choice to use to use a condom when laying down with the man or flat out saying no. And yes I am putting the responsibility on the women because 80% of our households are single parent homes and we have the highest percentage of abortions in our communities. Let's not talk about the 5% of women who get abortions due to rape, incest, or the safety of the mother. I'm talking about the 95% who kill their babies as a form of birth control.
> 
> Life begins at conception. Period. It's not about "jdging" anybody and frankly, Christians use the whole judgement line too often to avoid taking a stand for what's right. When are these innocent children afforded human rights?
> 
> ...


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## winterinatl (Sep 11, 2008)

Cichelle said:


> I know this is going to be unpopular, but sometimes I think the very reason that these tactics are so effective is because everyone _is _a sinner. When you are down and out, doing wrong and etc...then you can cast someone as worse than you, it makes you feel better. *Of course who would admit to this?* The gays and the gynecologist who perform abortions and the women who "murder their baybees" are SOOOOOOO horrible. _Hey, I'm not so bad. _
> 
> These two issues are really perfect for manipulating folks and making them look away from the much bigger issues in this country and world, not to mention their own foreclosure and the pink slip they just got last week. People will actually vote against their best interests for the sake of zygotes. I mean, you must be a good person if you try to save _baybees_. Right? I mean, only monsters wouldn't want to save _baybees_! Meanwhile, the very things they support doing sometimes contribute to the suffering and death of actual babies and women around the world. This was the lesson I had to learn the hard way. It was a slap in the face.
> 
> ...


I don't need to even read anymore.  Thank you and good night


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## jrae (Sep 11, 2008)

Ms.Honey said:


> If you plan to take away the only solution some of these women can come up with then there needs to be a viable solution to take it's place.



Abortion is such a permanent solution for a woman's temporary problem. There are viable choices that don't bring death to one of the human beings involved including Adoption.


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## Farida (Sep 11, 2008)

I love to separate church and state.

Many of the issues we discuss are not only moral but philosophical issues, scientific personal etc. Some of them cannot be proven with 100% certainty one way or the other.
Let's take abortion. I have always been pro life but I recognize:

some people define, from a medical standpoint with persuasive argument that life begins at implantation.

some people define, from a scientific and/or christian standpoint that life begins at conception

some people define from a scientific/ moral argument that life begins at sperm or even ovum and hence condoms are abortive...


I read a very compelling article from a pro life stand point called the use and misuse of the bible. I will post the link here later. It gave no clear answers but challenged conventional thinking on each side of the debate.

Even when we define life at beginning at one point, at what point is it worthy of the same protections as a fully-developed human being?
in the old testament children of less than one month were not considered of the same value as human beings 2 mos. and older.
yet Psalms seems to imply we are people from conception....

I tell you that read is a good read.

At the end of it all, my point is, we don't agree on all issues, Christian and non alike. A lot of times our choices are very heavily influenced by religion, but we must be careful at which point we step in and legislate versus letting people choose for themselves. Especially in this country where laws are so heavily-rooted in constitutional protections of privacy and liberty.

We don't want to slip and slide into Shar'ia law.


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## Farida (Sep 11, 2008)

jrae said:


> Abortion is such a permanent solution for a woman's temporary problem. There are viable choices that don't bring death to one of the human beings involved including Adoption.



The abortion debate is not as simple as that.
People on the other side of the argument will tell you that is not a human being you are talking about. (not my view, but let's go there arguendo)

Also, it is not as simple as freedom of choice versus imposition of limitations.
We all know this standard does not apply to prostitution, euthanasia and suicide among others.


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## Ms.Honey (Sep 12, 2008)

jrae said:


> Abortion is such a permanent solution for a woman's temporary problem. There are viable choices that don't bring death to one of the human beings involved including Adoption.


 
It's viable for healthy white babies. Babies of color are passed from foster home to foster home and raised in the system, not adopted.


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## Farida (Sep 13, 2008)

I think adoption is wonderful.

Open adoption is even better.

But I do think people romanticize the idea of adoption.


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