# The Man Who's Had Two Sex Changes



## yardyspice (Sep 21, 2015)

*The man who's had TWO sex changes: Incredible story of Walt, who became Laura, then REVERSED the operation because he believes surgeons in US and Europe are too quick to operate*

*Walt Heyer had sex change to become a woman when he was 42 years old*
*After eight years living as Laura Jensen, he reverted back to being a man*
*He believes the desire to change gender stems from psychological trauma *
*Heyer controversially disputes that Gender Dysphoria is a genetic disorder*
*Now 74, he acts as a counselor to those considering a sex change surgery*
*Psychological vetting of patients before operation is inadequate, he claims*
 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/search.html?s=&authornamef=Jay+Akbar+For+Mailonline

At 42-years-old, Walt Heyer was, by all accounts, a happily married man with two children.

But it was then he decided to undergo gender reassignment surgery to become a woman - a decision he would later say had a 'tremendous, destructive process' on his life. He reverted back to being a man just eight years later.

Now, at 74, Walt, from Los Angeles, tells MailOnline he should never have been allowed to have the sex change in the first place.

And he claims hundreds of others are making the same mistake because surgeons are not properly evaluating their motives to change gender.

He was delighted at being a female at first, having felt trapped in the wrong body since he was five years old.

But the Californian said these feelings of elation soon gave way to much darker feelings: 'Immediately after the procedure, you're in a state of euphoria because you battle it for so long.

'You think this is wonderful and fabulous and you think your life's going to be good and then as time goes on, there's this funny little thing that happens in life. It's called reality.'

Scroll down for video







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Sex change: Walt is pictured here in 1984, one year after he underwent surgery to become 'Laura Jensen'






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Reversal: This is Walt in 2007, following his decision to revert back to being a man - eight years after his initial surgery

Walt's genitals were removed as part of the transformation. He also received breast implants, treatment to reduce the hair on his face, and a course of estrogen hormones for as long as he remained a woman.

While dealing with the difficult physical transition, which he describes as a 'battle', he also faced cruel discrimination in his professional life.

He said: 'I ended up for a long time unemployed and trying to figure out what to do.

'I went to over 200 interviews before I got a job, because people don't really want a transgender person – they don't want to hire them, so it took a long time.'

In the mid-1980s, Walt says he came to the realisation that his desire to change genders came from deep-rooted childhood trauma - rather than a genetic disorder. But with no safe reversal procedures at the time, it was already too late.

It is accepted that people like Walt, who believe they were born inside the wrong body, suffer from Gender Dysphoria.

The condition was once believed to be psychiatric, but is now recognised as a medical condition by bodies such as the NHS. Recent studies suggest that it is a biological disorder caused by hormonal imbalances before a baby is born. The NHS does not class it as a mental illness.

Walt, however, claims that his gender confusion was caused simply by his environment and family relationships.

It is a controversial viewpoint, and one that will upset many. But the 74-year-old is adamant that he should never been allowed to go through with the procedure. Experts have told MailOnline that the procedures in Britain are robust - and that gender dysphoria must be diagnosed by at least two specialists before procedures are carried out.

But Walt now says: 'Gender dysphoria is a psychological condition where you are dissatisfied with your gender.

Most provocatively, he adds: 'Nobody's ever born a transgender. They're manufactured as a result of something, a developmental childhood issue that has yet to be determined for many people.

'In retrospect, I can see that changing genders, quite frankly is just pure foolishness.'






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Happy life: Walt was a happily married man at 42, and with two children, when he decided to undergo a sex change






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Elation: He told MailOnline: 'Immediately after the procedure, you're in a state of euphoria because you battle it for so long'





Growing up in Los Angeles, Walt had a tough but bearable start in life with a strict mother, a part-time policeman father - living in the shadow of a 'brainiac' brother.

When he was five, everything changed.

'It was then my grandmother, when I was being babysat by her, started dressing me in female clothing. She even made me a purple chiffon evening dress,' he said.

'And when dad found out what grandma had been doing, and dressing me up like a girl, it did change everything.

'My daughter was very, very upset. And my son said it would be easier if you were to die, because then at least I could talk to people about what you were going through.'
Walt Heyer
'His adopted brother Fred began to sexually molest me. Mom's discipline got even more severe and I would learn much later in life that on one occasion, her discipline was so tough, she thought she had almost killed me.'

The treatment he suffered from those entrusted to protect him made him feel like he was 'a girl trapped in a male's body', he said, and he became reclusive because of it.

37 years later, he would finally take the drastic step to become a woman - and he lived for eight years as Laura Jensen.

He had divorced his wife three months before the surgery because he did not want to put someone else 'through that difficult time'.

The relationship with his ex-wife remained civil but his daughter, 15 at the time, and son, 12, were less understanding.

Walt said: 'My daughter was very, very upset. And my son said it would be easier if you were to die, because then at least I could talk to people about what you were going through.

'When a father does that, you're betraying your children and what came to my mind later on was I saw myself as much more important than my kids.

'That is probably the most self-centred, narcissistic thing a person can do – it's just nonsense to place yourself over a couple of kids, who needed someone to be there for them.'







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Psychological issues: Walt (pictured as a child)believes his desire to change genders stemmed from early emotional trauma






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Childhood trauma: Among other hardships Walt (centre) suffered, he was sexually abused by his uncle






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Evaluation: Walt - pictured here on his wedding day in 1962 - believes patients are not vetted thoroughly enough before sex change surgery

He was optimistic at first, having finally realised the dream he had been nurturing as an escape since childhood.

As Laura Jensen, he eventually landed a well-paying job working for the US government at the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation.

It wasn't until he began studying psychology at the University of California Santa Cruz that he said he came to the self-realisation that being transgender was a 'psychological disorder' - and he'd made a huge mistake.

'All they do is pump people full of hormones, put in breast implants and declare that they've manufactured a female. It's biologically impossible to make a man into a woman.'

He said: 'Once I studied psychology, I realised that it is impossible to biologically transform someone from one gender to the other, and that's the moment you realise that it's psychological condition, and not medical.

'All they do is pump people full of hormones, put in breast implants and declare that they've manufactured a female. It's biologically impossible to make a man into a woman.'

After eight years of living as Laura Jensen in San Francisco, he had would receive another operation to revert to his 'birth gender'.

So after eight years, £20,000 and untold damage to his health and relationships, he once again became Walt Heyer.

Now, through his website 'Sex Change Regret', he acts as an unofficial counselor to those considering the same procedure.

And after many emotional discussions, he has finally rekindled his relationships with his children, who now call him 'their hero'.

He said: 'I met with each one of them, and told them how sorry I was that I didn't make them the focus of my life - and I focused on some gender difficulties that I was having.

'This all happened after I realised what a horrible mistake I'd made and so the relationship took its time to heal, but now it's fine.'






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Transition: After eight years, £20,000 and untold damage to his health and relationships, 'Laura Jensen' once again became Walt Heyer (pictured)






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Returning the favour: Walt (pictured) now runs a website where he acts as an informal counselor to those thinking about getting a sex change

* GENDER DYSPHORIA EXPLAINED  *
Gender dysphoria is a condition where a person experiences discomfort or distress because there is a mismatch between their biological sex and gender identity.

Biological sex is assigned at birth, depending on the appearance of the genitals. Gender identity is the gender that a person 'identifies' with or feels themselves to be.

While biological sex and gender identity are the same for most people, this is not the case for everyone. For example, some people may have the anatomy of a man, but identify themselves as a woman, while others may not feel they are definitively either male or female.

This mismatch between sex and gender identity can lead to distressing and uncomfortable feelings that are called gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria is a recognised medical condition, for which treatment is sometimes appropriate. It is not a mental illness.

The condition is also sometimes known as gender identity disorder (GID), gender incongruence or transgenderism.

Some people with gender dysphoria have a strong and persistent desire to live according to their gender identity, rather than their biological sex. These people are sometimes called transsexual or trans people. Some trans people have treatment to make their physical appearance more consistent with their gender identity.

Gender dysphoria is not the same as transvestism or cross-dressing and is not related to sexual orientation. People with the condition may identify as straight, gay, lesbian, bisexual or asexual, and this may change with treatment.

Source: NHS Choices

Walt says hundreds of people contact him for advice prior to having a sex change, and on how to deal with their regret afterwards.

He claims that every single one of them can trace their need to change back to a childhood issue, and better psychological evaluation would discover that - saving them both money and heartache.

Walt himself says he suffers from dissociative disorder, which disrupts his memories and sense of self-identity. Mental health charity Mind says dissociative disorders disrupt 'your sense of reality and who you are'.

It can be considered an involuntary defence-mechanism to shield the victim from some kind of psychological trauma.

However, he believes many pre-operative patients need greater help with mental health issues before they take the decision to go ahead. He said: 'There's a huge element of trust that all of the pre-surgical transgender people place in the hands of the clinicians.

'They make them go through counselling, but it's more of what I would frankly refer to as a rubber stamp because they're looking to approve them.

'All of them have some level of depression, and we're not treating them – we're just cutting off body parts and giving them a new name and a new gender.

'Biologically, no one can transport to the other gender, it's not even possible. Because they use a guy's penis and just invert it, the guy hasn't lost it, it's just going the wrong way.'

Walt claimed the regret can be so severe that post-operative patients end up self harming, and even committing suicide.

The Gender Identity Research and Education Society (GIRES) makes it clear that gender dysphoria is a condition that needs to be taken more seriously.

Trustee Terry Reed told MailOnline: 'Studies have been done to show it is not something that’s related to abuse or anything else in childhood.

'Children under school age, for instance, change their gender role and are absolutely adamant about who they are.

'There are many studies that show that biological factors, especially hormonal and genetic, impact on the neurobiology of the brain and are crucially important in the development of gender identities.'

'It would completely wrong to say there is insufficient screening beforehand - you could make an equally plausible argument that there is too much screening beforehand.'

Christella Antoni, gender expert and speech therapist based at the Gender Identity Clinic in west London, said: 'In the health service in Britain, patients' most common complaint is that they are actually made to wait too long.

'There are very stringent procedures in place to make sure people are actually suffering from gender dysphoria and really need the operation.

'In a handful of cases people choose to 'detransition' [reverse the operation] at a later stage, but this is quite rare, and it is more likely to happen when patients have funded their operation privately and perhaps not been honest about how long they have been living as a woman or a man.

'But the procedure before an operation is very strict. You need to have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, then a second opinion.

'And then in many cases you are referred to a third specialist, a hormone expert. Of course if you are funding the operation yourself there is a huge onus and responsibility to the doctor to be ethical.'



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ves-surgeons-quick-operate.html#ixzz3mO0SKDXT
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## CaraWalker (Sep 21, 2015)

mtv had a true life episode about people who "transitioned" genders only to change back.


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## [email protected]@ (Sep 21, 2015)

There was a great article someone posted around here about John Hopkins cutting back on these kind of surgeries. It was a surprisingly good read, imo.


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## Ganjababy (Sep 21, 2015)

This is facinating. But his narrative is not representative of all transgenders. 

Did anyone see the news about boys in the DR being born as girls and then they become boys at puberty (grow their penis) due to some hormonal defect in their mother during pregnancy?

I think there are so many reasons why someone could be transgendered. Unfortunately i suspect a couple of people that i know may have the same narrative as this man.


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## hopeful (Sep 21, 2015)

This was an interesting read OP.


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## yardyspice (Sep 21, 2015)

> The treatment he suffered from those entrusted to protect him made him feel like he was 'a girl trapped in a male's body', he said, and he became reclusive because of it.



Wouldn't be something if in the future we find that it is a perverse result of patriarchy and misogyny? Say the trauma happens to a child just at the time when they are becoming aware of gender roles and in case of boys, they identify with the gender they feel is more powerless.


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## crlsweetie912 (Sep 21, 2015)

If nothing else, this whole thing is fascinating.  But he had his genitals removed, so now he is back a man.  That seems like it would be devastating...


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## Zaynab (Sep 21, 2015)

WOW. I actually think what he's saying makes perfect sense.


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## PretteePlease (Sep 21, 2015)

When I hear about stories like this involving extensive surgery my first question is always where do folk get all of this disposable income. 

May he find the peace he seeks in this life.


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## Zaynab (Sep 21, 2015)

Ganjababy said:


> This is facinating. But his narrative is not representative of all transgenders.
> 
> *Did anyone see the news about boys in the DR being born as girls and then they become boys at puberty (grow their penis) due to some hormonal defect in their mother during pregnancy?*
> 
> I think there are so many reasons why someone could be transgendered. Unfortunately i suspect a couple of people that i know may have the same narrative as this man.



No. But that sounds interesting.


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## PretteePlease (Sep 21, 2015)

Ganjababy said:


> This is facinating. But his narrative is not representative of all transgenders.
> 
> Did anyone see the news about boys in the DR being born as girls and then they become boys at puberty (grow their penis) due to some hormonal defect in their mother during pregnancy?
> 
> I think there are so many reasons why someone could be transgendered. Unfortunately i suspect a couple of people that i know may have the same narrative as this man.



No but it sounds like pesticide side effects. Pesticides have been know to cause sex changes in frogs. DR is know for sugar cane production among other cash crops.


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## runwaydream (Sep 21, 2015)

Good read. Dr. Umar Johnson said something quite similar to this. That was a good interview as well.


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## beingofserenity (Sep 21, 2015)

I appreciate this narrative.


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## LunadeMiel (Sep 21, 2015)

Ganjababy said:


> This is facinating. But his narrative is not representative of all transgenders.
> 
> Did anyone see the news about boys in the DR being born as girls and then they become boys at puberty (grow their penis) due to some hormonal defect in their mother during pregnancy?
> 
> I think there are so many reasons why someone could be transgendered. Unfortunately i suspect a couple of people that i know may have the same narrative as this man.


they are genetically boys born with a disorder, they just presented as girls.


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## calliope (Sep 21, 2015)

I wonder what type of impact an article like this might have on Prop 1 in Houston.


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## naturalgyrl5199 (Sep 21, 2015)

He says its biologically impossible to change a male into a female.

I agree that major surgeries such as this and bariatric surgery is not vetted as well as it could be. Post bariatric surgery weight gain is that field's dirty little secret. I see it a bit in my field.

I am interested in seeing what happens to Cait in 10 years if Cait stays healthy enough. I would NOT be surprised if there is a surgery reversal..


Off topic: In an attempt to learn about FTM transitioning, I follow an IG page dedicated to them. All I can think of is these FTM transitioners getting their breasts removed (aka Top Surgery)...which is REALLY strange to see on a woman who has the stretchmarks after having 4 kids...T-shots (aka Vitamin T for testosterone) to promote hair and muscle growth...and thinking.....These new buff guys still have periods though?.... Gotta be interesting if you date a female.

My former co-worker (mom of 1) started dating a girl who dressed like a boy....and she would complain about dealing with her 16 year old daughter's PMS...then her girlfriend's PMS (who wore boxers).....


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## beingofserenity (Sep 21, 2015)

naturalgyrl5199 said:


> He says its biologically impossible to change a male into a female.
> 
> I agree that major surgeries such as this and bariatric surgery is not vetted as well as it could be. Post bariatric surgery weight gain is that field's dirty little secret. I see it a bit in my field.
> 
> ...



Ftm transitioners still have periods?! 

Ew...

What page is that instagram btw?


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## naturalgyrl5199 (Sep 21, 2015)

@ftmtranslife


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## barbiesocialite (Sep 21, 2015)

There a younger person was on botched who also undid his sex change. I think this is pretty common


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## DiamondDivyne (Sep 21, 2015)

'All they do is pump people full of hormones, put in breast implants and declare that they've *manufactured a female. It's biologically impossible to make a man into a woman.*'

Sooooooooooo true.  Women are born not made/manufactured.

I recently went back and watched the earlier episodes of Grey's Anatomay.  There was one episode where this man felt like his foot did not belong to him...like it was not a part of his body. He went into their free clinic with his ailment and requested that the foot be amputated.  Of course all of the Dr.'s looked at him like he was crazy and ALL refused to amputate a perfectly healthy appendage.  They set the patient up with a psych consult. The patient ended up leaving and somehow got a hold of a chainsaw (I forget why there was a saw in the ER that day) and chopped off his own foot with no anesthetic.

This is what comes to mind when I consider someone wanting to remove a perfectly healthy body part.  I can't understand what Dr. in their right mind would perform such surgeries.  Even still, it must be really difficult to cope with these types of feelings.  I can only imagine how lonely these people feel.  I think it should definitely be treated as a mental disorder and not medical.


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## DiamondDivyne (Sep 21, 2015)

beingofserenity said:


> Ftm transitioners still have periods?!
> 
> Ew...
> 
> What page is that instagram btw?



I was on a forum that provided tips for vaginal cups.  One of their rules was not to refer to the members as ladies/women/girls, etc. because not everyone that has a period identifies with those genders.  Craziest **** ever.


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## beingofserenity (Sep 21, 2015)

DiamondDivyne said:


> I was on a forum that provided tips for vaginal cups.  One of their rules was not to refer to the members as ladies/women/girls, etc. because not everyone that has a period identifies with those genders.  Craziest **** ever.



Gotta be a mind **** to identify as a man but still get a reminder every month that you're not.


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## PopLife (Sep 21, 2015)

Interesting story...what the heck was up with the grandmother dressing him up in girl clothes, smh...  I'm glad he has finally found peace and reconciled his relationship with his children.


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## Crackers Phinn (Sep 21, 2015)

I agree with everything he said and his hair is resplendent.


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## DragonPearl (Sep 21, 2015)

I do believe some transgenders experience regrets. But not all. 

i think in this particular case, since society was very hostile to transgenders at the time, it may have contributed to his regrets. He felt like a pariah. that's not a way to live. I think now with more acceptance and tolerance, there might be less regrets among people who undergo sex changes.


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## DiamondDivyne (Sep 21, 2015)

beingofserenity said:


> Gotta be a mind **** to identify as a man but still get a reminder every month that you're not.


Exactly!  It's one of the reasons I think male-to-female transgender must be "easier."  I haven't seen any cases where female-to-male transgenders are celebrated and protected the way it seems like MTF are.


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## DragonPearl (Sep 21, 2015)

I don't like it how the article states that he was happily married man before he opted for surgery. People like that are NOT happily married.


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## LunadeMiel (Sep 21, 2015)

DragonPearl said:


> I do believe some transgenders experience regrets. But not all.
> 
> i think in this particular case, since society was very hostile to transgenders at the time, it may have contributed to his regrets. He felt like a pariah. that's not a way to live. I think now with more acceptance and tolerance, there might be less regrets among people who undergo sex changes.


I hope that as society evolves we recognize this for what it is and get these people the help that they need.


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## ForestRose (Sep 21, 2015)

DiamondDivyne said:


> Exactly!  It's one of the reasons I think male-to-female transgender must be "easier."  I haven't seen any cases where female-to-male transgenders are celebrated and protected the way it seems like MTF are.


MTF are way more common than FTM. Not sure why but that's what I have been told.


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## barbiesocialite (Sep 21, 2015)

DragonPearl said:


> I don't like it how the article states that he was happily married man before he opted for surgery. People like that are NOT happily married.




Not true.

Bruce Jenner was happily married by his own account for most of his last marriage.


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## barbiesocialite (Sep 21, 2015)

LunadeMiel said:


> I hope that as society evolves we recognize this for what it is and get these people the help that they need.




I'm def leaning toward mental illness.  I would not be opposed to legislation or rewriting medical diagnoses to classify it as such.

Honestly I  think the Bruce Jenner situation was impactful in ways no one imagined. Instead of this revolving door of acceptance, people have begun to look at trasgenders with more of a critical eye.


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## Keen (Sep 21, 2015)

Zaynab said:


> WOW. I actually think what he's saying makes perfect sense.


Makes sense to me too. However, I think he is putting to much responsibility on the surgeons.


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## ForestRose (Sep 21, 2015)

barbiesocialite said:


> I'm def leaning toward mental illness.  I would not be opposed to legislation or rewriting medical diagnoses to classify it as such.
> 
> *Honestly I  think the Bruce Jenner situation was impactful in ways no one imagined. Instead of this revolving door of acceptance, people have begun to look at trasgenders with more of a critical eye.*


I totally agree. It's only until after the Bruce/Caitlyn thing happened did I become more skeptical of the treatment of people with gender dysphoria. I used to watch a doc called lady boys (about Thai MtF trans people) for a while and found it so interesting and entertaining in a good way.

Bruce outed himself on his own show. Imo all he did was show how he is a man dressed up as a women. All his mannerisms and behaviours were nothing like a women's. He doesn't even have the sense of sensitivity that nearly every women has. This isn't something that has to be learnt. It's something that we are born with. He also said stupid **** like dating a man would make him feel feminine. Really?!


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## DarkJoy (Sep 21, 2015)

Every TG Ive known has been molested or suffered extreme trauma. Every single one. So I get the article in the op.


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## DragonPearl (Sep 21, 2015)

barbiesocialite said:


> Not true.
> 
> Bruce Jenner was happily married by his own account for most of his last marriage.


I have a difficult time taking at face value anything Caitlyn says about her marriage. How can you be happily married when you're living a lie everyday? it makes no sense to me. Also people who are happily married don't break up their marriages.  They do everything possible to hold on to that marriage, to that happiness.


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## DragonPearl (Sep 21, 2015)

LunadeMiel said:


> I hope that as society evolves we recognize this for what it is and get these people the help that they need.


You're saying that this is a mental illness, right? Imo some of them are mentally ill, some are not. I think not identifying with your birth gender is not necessarily a mental illness. I think the delusional belief that you are now fully a member of the opposite gender because of surgery and hormones qualifies as mental illness. It's just my opinion, which may evolve...


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## DarkJoy (Sep 21, 2015)

I said this is another thread when I studied TGism. In my mind its really the primary explanation and means these folk need help not surgical mutilation. 



> Walt himself says he suffers from dissociative disorder, which disrupts his memories and sense of self-identity. Mental health charity Mind says dissociative disordersdisrupt 'your sense of reality and who you are'.
> 
> It can be considered an involuntary defence-mechanism to shield the victim from some kind of psychological trauma.


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## Texasdymond (Sep 21, 2015)

DiamondDivyne said:


> 'All they do is pump people full of hormones, put in breast implants and declare that they've *manufactured a female. It's biologically impossible to make a man into a woman.*'
> .



The bolded brings a bible verse to mind that I'm going to paraphrase- "The world's wisdom is foolishness to God."

Of course its impossible to biologically turn a man into a woman. You can't undo what God has done. Dont know why this is such a difficult concept for mankind.


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## FemmeCreole (Sep 21, 2015)

Zaynab said:


> WOW. I actually think what he's saying makes perfect sense.


So do I


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## DarkJoy (Sep 21, 2015)

naturalgyrl5199 said:


> Off topic: In an attempt to learn about FTM transitioning, I follow an IG page dedicated to them. All I can think of is these FTM transitioners getting their breasts removed (aka Top Surgery)...which is REALLY strange to see on a woman who has the stretchmarks after having 4 kids...T-shots (aka Vitamin T for testosterone) to promote hair and muscle growth...and thinking.....These new buff guys still have periods though?.... Gotta be interesting if you date a female.


Glad you brought this up. The world is so focused on mtf but ftm is way more fascinating:

yep they might get periods for a while. And depending on the person the top surgery can leave a mass of scars. 

And while we're on it, most are still anatomically female from the waist down and still respond like a woman sexually (some might get hysterectomies but the outter equipment is still there)... so really  Whats the point? You cut off your tits, have no dyck, still get wet, and put yourself through wearing a "prosthetic" aka dildo all day. They call it a prosthetic as if they've  lost a limb! why I say its a mental illness.

Whats real weird is sharing your birthing and mentrual stories with a "man" who comes right back with "his" birth stories! Mind F.... lemme tell you.

Sorry to be so crude but it is what it is.


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## beingofserenity (Sep 21, 2015)

DarkJoy said:


> Glad you brought this up. The world is so focused on mtf but ftm is way more fascinating:
> 
> yep they might get periods for a while. And depending on the person the top surgery can leave a mass of scars.
> 
> ...



So they can't construct a penis...?


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## Mortons (Sep 21, 2015)

This is the fault of a man entirely and not the fault of surgeons. This kind of personality (not trans gendered person, but the man himself and his personality) is clearly one that is very confused and intense. He likely has some kind of mental illness that is _not related to being trans_, but related to his own life experiences and mental break down. 

That said, I hate these narratives. I am not supposed to, but I do. Because instead of it being taken as one experience out of millions on earth, people create some kind of "theory" about all people around this one persons experience, while not acknowledging the other millions. As a minority group these things are less...affordable.


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## Zaynab (Sep 21, 2015)

FemmeCreole said:


> So do I


Now I think Bruce/Cait just wants to dress up in women's clothes. I don't think he wants to be a woman?


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## Mortons (Sep 21, 2015)

beingofserenity said:


> So they can't construct a penis...?



Yes they can. And all the mtf that I know stopped getting their period...because the plumbing was removed. the penis, however, has length but no thickness so it always looks "different". Well different by the experiences of a US Black woman I suppose....now in Japan they might blend right on in


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## FemmeCreole (Sep 21, 2015)

Zaynab said:


> Now I think Bruce/Cait just wants to dress up in women's clothes. I don't think he wants to be a woman?


He's one who I believe will revert in the future, if he lives long enough. I'll give him 5 years to see what happens.


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## PJaye (Sep 21, 2015)

yardyspice said:


> Wouldn't be something if in the future we find that it is a perverse result of patriarchy and misogyny? Say the trauma happens to a child just at the time when they are becoming aware of gender roles and in case of boys, they identify with the gender they feel is more powerless.



...or powerful.


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## Mortons (Sep 21, 2015)

I believe that Caitlyn was supposed to be a woman. But his experience in 50-60 years of living a very privileged life due to his white maleness is going to be a hard transition for him. He identified as a republican, said awful things about gay marriage, and is under the mistaken impression that the same people who were his friends are still going to react the same way to him. He will have the hardest time moving out of the rich, white republican male idea to the mindframe of a woman. 

this is why I am an advocate for coming out early and transitioning early. A person who was acknowledged and started the transition as a woman when they are in puberty will have the "experiences" they need to grow towards womanhood or manhood along with their body. At 50 you will always be a split soul.


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## DarkJoy (Sep 21, 2015)

beingofserenity said:


> So they can't construct a penis...?


yes they can. The ones i know didnt for these reasons: 

1. its extremely expensive and complicated:

2. it does not get erect on its own.  the surgeon has to implant a manual pump the tg uses to get it up before coitus, and

3. there is the risk the nerves could be severed making orgasms impossible.

Ive read a lot of ftm dont do bottom surgery for these reasons. Obviously some do. Seems to be a mashup there.


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## CaraWalker (Sep 21, 2015)

DragonPearl said:


> You're saying that this is a mental illness, right? Imo some of them are mentally ill, some are not. I think not identifying with your birth gender is not necessarily a mental illness. I think the delusional belief that you are now fully a member of the opposite gender because of surgery and hormones qualifies as mental illness. It's just my opinion, which may evolve...



right. you feel dysphoria. ok. you mutilate yourself. ok. your life, your issues. but when you are expecting everyone to play along with this fantasy world thats where your issues stop making sense. cause they ARE yours, not mine, to deal with.



DarkJoy said:


> Glad you brought this up. The world is so focused on mtf but ftm is way more fascinating:
> 
> yep they might get periods for a while. And depending on the person the top surgery can leave a mass of scars.
> 
> ...


they have adapted the idea that biology is so completely divorced from gender that they dont believe their genitals have anything to do with anything. thats why we have this narrative of "not being preoccupied with what someone has between their legs" and "assigned at birth" and this whole ridiculous argument that you are a bigot if you care what genitals someone has. it blows my mind that you can hang all this ****ing rhetoric on what someone "presents" as, ie the deep need to look like a certain gender on the outside yet forget all about it when it comes to sex. if you can understand someone is or is not attracted to how you look, or its so damn life or death inportant that you "present" and "pass" as male or female, why is that no longer relevant when it comes to how your genitals look?


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## barbiesocialite (Sep 21, 2015)

Zaynab said:


> Now I think Bruce/Cait just wants to dress up in women's clothes. I don't think he wants to be a woman?




Ive been saying this forever. Bruce seems like a cross dresser to me. 

I think hes a narcissist and an entitled arrogant prick who decided the only way for him to steal attention back away from the Kardashians back to him is through this bull.....


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## nysister (Sep 21, 2015)

I wish I could remember the link/article, but a surgeon at a hospital here (Johns Hopkins?) said that they would no longer do sex changes for that reason, basically that the long lasting effects can damage someone and sometimes Doctors are too quick to perform them, so they'd rather err on the side of caution or something to that effect.


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## naturalgyrl5199 (Sep 21, 2015)

Mortons said:


> I believe that Caitlyn was supposed to be a woman. But his experience in 50-60 years of living a very privileged life due to his white maleness is going to be a hard transition for him. He identified as a republican, said awful things about gay marriage, and is under the mistaken impression that the same people who were his friends are still going to react the same way to him. He will have the hardest time moving out of the rich, white republican male idea to the mindframe of a woman.
> 
> this is why I am an advocate for coming out early and transitioning early. A person who was acknowledged and started the transition as a woman when they are in puberty will have the "experiences" they need to grow towards womanhood or manhood along with their body. At 50 you will always be a split soul.



Plus old ppl set in their ways.

Hard for the average joe. Most people cannot afford this at a young age.


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## DragonPearl (Sep 21, 2015)

Mortons said:


> I believe that Caitlyn was supposed to be a woman. But his experience in 50-60 years of living a very privileged life due to his white maleness is going to be a hard transition for him. He identified as a republican, said awful things about gay marriage, and is under the mistaken impression that the same people who were his friends are still going to react the same way to him. He will have the hardest time moving out of the rich, white republican male idea to the mindframe of a woman.
> 
> this is why I am an advocate for coming out early and transitioning early. A person who was acknowledged and started the transition as a woman when they are in puberty will have the "experiences" they need to grow towards womanhood or manhood along with their body. At 50 you will always be a split soul.


The irony is that had Caitlyn transitioned in puberty, she would have never become the olympic champion she later became. 

And i am not convinced transitioning in puberty gives the  transperson the "experiences" to grow toward womanhood/manhood. Especially for the MTF.  growing into a woman is more than growing boobs. A MTF will have no menstrual periods. No PMS. No worries about birth control.  No worries about pregnancy. Having to disclose or hide their birth gender. Their experience is truly unique and different.


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## Honey Bee (Sep 21, 2015)

DragonPearl said:


> I have a difficult time taking at face value anything Caitlyn says about her marriage. How can you be happily married when you're living a lie everyday? it makes no sense to me. Also people who are happily married don't break up their marriages.  They do everything possible to hold on to that marriage, to that happiness.





DragonPearl said:


> You're saying that this is a mental illness, right? Imo some of them are mentally ill, some are not. I think not identifying with your birth gender is not necessarily a mental illness. I think the delusional belief that you are now fully a member of the opposite gender because of surgery and hormones qualifies as mental illness. It's just my opinion, which may evolve...


I think you can be both 'happily married'* and mentally ill at he same time.

*in quotes because what people call 'happily married' and what is actually 'happily married' can be two different things.


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## Mortons (Sep 21, 2015)

DragonPearl said:


> The irony is that had Caitlyn transitioned in puberty, she would have never become the olympic champion she later became.
> 
> And i am not convinced transitioning in puberty gives the  transperson the "experiences" to grow toward womanhood/manhood. Especially for the MTF.  growing into a woman is more than growing boobs. A MTF will have no menstrual periods. No PMS. No worries about birth control.  No worries about pregnancy. Having to disclose or hide their birth gender. Their experience is truly unique and different.


I don't worry about birth control, pms, nor pregnancy. I worry about many other things than reproduction. Not saying it's not unique, am saying it is easier to exist in a life you know for a long period of time.


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## Zaynab (Sep 22, 2015)

Keen said:


> Makes sense to me too. However, I think he is putting to much responsibility on the surgeons.



Right. But what he's saying is we are a fixit society, take a pill, get surgery, let's fixit and move on, instead of focusing on the internal/psychological reasons why a person would want a sex change. It's much like people who have weight loss surgery, many of them gain the weight back or find ways to eat more than they actually can because overeating is more of a mental thing IMO, not a desire to eat. I know weight loss surgery patients-their stomachs don't even growl after surgery.


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## natura87 (Sep 22, 2015)

DiamondDivyne said:


> I was on a forum that provided tips for vaginal cups.  One of their rules was not to refer to the members as ladies/women/girls, etc. because not everyone that has a period identifies with those genders.  Craziest **** ever.


Im sorry  but if you are using a  DivaCup I'm going to call you a lady
 *** feelings.
*** wherever the hell you aloghn yourself on the LGTBVRQWPZ spectrum. 

Its meant for a woman,  thus I will call  anyone that uses it a woman.  Its not my job to conform to someone  else's gender/ sexual identity.


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## CurlsandPeace (Sep 22, 2015)

I went to  his site, the testimonials are fascinating.


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## Kurlee (Sep 22, 2015)

yardyspice said:


> Wouldn't be something if in the future we find that it is a perverse result of patriarchy and misogyny? Say the trauma happens to a child just at the time when they are becoming aware of gender roles and in case of boys, they identify with the gender they feel is more powerless.


I think that this theory has legs!


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## DragonPearl (Sep 22, 2015)

Mortons said:


> I don't worry about birth control, pms, nor pregnancy. I worry about many other things than reproduction. Not saying it's not unique, am saying it is easier to exist in a life you know for a long period of time.


Correct. As a gay woman, you don't worry about reproduction since gay sex does not produce offsprings. But god forbid you should be raped,  you would have to worry about that, unless you had your reproductive organs taken out. A fully transitioned transgender never has to worry about that.

Should I even go into the host of other ailments that only happen to women as they go through life, regardless of reproductive and sexual choices? Fibroids. cysts, endometriosis, menopause and hot flashes etc... That's why there is a specialty in medicine called gynecology.

what I would like to know is, other than wearing makeup and girly clothes, in which way is a transgender's experience of womanhood similar to that of a natural born woman?


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