# I can't imagine.....



## Hair2Here (Mar 9, 2010)

I was reading through the new posts today and stumbled across a thread being shared by non-theist/free thinkers and the like.  At first I was really upset.  But then an overwhelming sadness came over me because I was actually worried about their souls.

I can't imagine my life w/o my Heavenly Father, my Jesus and the Holy Spirit.  When I wasn't saved, I felt as if I missed out on so much (experiencing His love, blessings, protection, etc).  So, I just felt awful that they were missing out on the same.  But I love each and every one of them dispite their ignorance of the truth.  I believe everyone has some inclination that God is the one true God.

Please believers, say a prayer for our LHCF family members who do not believe!
http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=451376


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## makeupgirl (Mar 11, 2010)

I saw that thread too.  Satan is still at work and we must pray for their souls and pray that somehow, someway they will receive the gospel and accept Christ as their Lord and Savior.  Some probably have already received the gospel and just have rejected Christ, which is so sad.  I'm glad he saved me.  That he thought about me and you and everyone on Calvary's cross.  They just don't know that when they are rejecting Christ they are indirectly choosing Satan and choosing hell.  There is no free pass to heaven and you can't be good to go there.  Jesus said, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me. (John 14:6).  I pray that the folks on that thread will sincerely repent of their sins, believe in the gospel of Christ and ask him to become the Lord of their life.  I have this feeling that it's almost time to go home.


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## Poohbear (Mar 11, 2010)

I actually found the thread to be quite interesting and enlightening.  

I myself am struggling with the whole idea of what it means to be a Christian.  I feel like I'm becoming Agnostic due to all the division among Christianity, corruption, and hypocrisy.  If Jesus is the one true way, then why are so many "Christians" abusing God's grace with their sins, and at the same time, looking down on others who sin or don't believe in God or Jesus?  Aren't you as a Christian acting like someone who doesn't believe in God when you sin all day everyday and make an excuse that you can't stop because of your sinful fleshly nature from Adam?


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## makeupgirl (Mar 11, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> I actually found the thread to be quite interesting and enlightening.
> 
> I myself am struggling with the whole idea of what it means to be a Christian. I feel like I'm becoming Agnostic due to all the division among Christianity, corruption, and hypocrisy. If Jesus is the one true way, then why are so many "Christians" abusing God's grace with their sins, and at the same time, looking down on others who sin or don't believe in God or Jesus? Aren't you as a Christian acting like someone who doesn't believe in God when you sin all day everyday and make an excuse that you can't stop because of your sinful fleshly nature from Adam?


 
You make some excellent points Pooh Bear.  That's why we have to constantly be in prayer.  I can't stand it be around holier than thou people actually and they always call themselves Christian and yet sinning like a fat rat.  (sorry, I have a weird way with words, lol)  I mean it's very easy to backslide and to sin.  But Christians should never, ever look down on someone who doesn't believe in God or sin.  I love all of my friends, family the same.  If they don't chose to believe in God, then that's between them and God.  I've planted the seed when I witness to them but there are some Christians that do push too hard.  In the end, only God can judge us when we stand before him. I'm hungry.


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## makeupgirl (Mar 11, 2010)

makeupgirl said:


> You make some excellent points Pooh Bear. That's why we have to constantly be in prayer. I can't stand it be around holier than thou people actually and they always call themselves Christian and yet sinning like a fat rat. (sorry, I have a weird way with words, lol) I mean it's very easy to backslide and to sin. But Christians should never, ever look down on someone who doesn't believe in God or sin. I love all of my friends, family the same. If they don't chose to believe in God, then that's between them and God. I've planted the seed when I witness to them but there are some Christians that do push too hard. In the end, only God can judge us when we stand before him. *I'm hungry*.


 
I'm sorry I didn't mean to add this. lol.  I really am though and I just ate.


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## MoMo (Mar 11, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> I actually found the thread to be quite interesting and enlightening.
> 
> I myself am struggling with the whole idea of what it means to be a Christian.  I feel like I'm becoming Agnostic due to all the division among Christianity, corruption, and hypocrisy.  If Jesus is the one true way, then why are so many "Christians" abusing God's grace with their sins, and at the same time, looking down on others who sin or don't believe in God or Jesus?  Aren't you as a Christian acting like someone who doesn't believe in God when you sin all day everyday and make an excuse that you can't stop because of your sinful fleshly nature from Adam?



The beauty of Christianity is *your* personal relationship with GOD and belief that he gave his son Jesus Christ to die for our sins.  We are to fellowship with others who believe as we do and testify to those that do not.  My relationship with GOD has absolutely no bearing on what the next "Christian" is doing.  It is truly an intimate and personal relationship that I share with HIM.  

I completely understand your feelings about "Christians" right now and agree with you about the hypocrisy of it all.  However, we will be judged on our actions and it all comes down to the choices we make exercising free will.


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## sidney (Mar 11, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> *I actually found the thread to be quite interesting and enlightening.*
> 
> I myself am struggling with the whole idea of what it means to be a Christian. I feel like I'm becoming Agnostic due to all the division among Christianity, corruption, and hypocrisy. If Jesus is the one true way, then why are so many "Christians" abusing God's grace with their sins, and at the same time, looking down on others who sin or don't believe in God or Jesus? Aren't you as a Christian acting like someone who doesn't believe in God when you sin all day everyday and make an excuse that you can't stop because of your sinful fleshly nature from Adam?


 
You know, it really bothers me when people misrepresent Christ.   But it's important for us to realize that despite what other people do, we all willl have to give a PERSONAL account to God for our lives.  And we won't have the others there to point our finger at.  It will just be each individual person and God.  I pray that no one lets someone else's walk hinder them from getting to God.  Because in the end, each journey is an individual one.  

Also, regarding the bolded.  We must be careful what you gain from others.  The bible says "There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death."


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## sidney (Mar 11, 2010)

MoMo said:


> The beauty of Christianity is *your* personal relationship with GOD and belief that he gave his son Jesus Christ to die for our sins. We are to fellowship with others who believe as we do and testify to those that do not. My relationship with GOD has absolutely no bearing on what the next "Christian" is doing. It is truly an intimate and personal relationship that I share with him.
> 
> I completely understand your feelings about "Christians" right now and agree with you about the hypocrisy of it all. However, we will be judged on our actions and it all comes down to the choices we make exercising free will.


 
Didn't read this before but I answered but we are on the same page!


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## Ije4eva (Mar 11, 2010)

You know, I do understand that when you look around some of the hypocrisy that we see can be really disgusting.  I think we all have at least a small dose of that in us if I'm being honest.  But the fact is, I came to Christ not because of any man, but for Him.  I worship and serve Him because of the personal experience I've had with Him and what that has meant to me.  If I was really focusing on a lot of the nonsense I see I may not even be a Christian myself, which is why I try not to.  Everyone is allowed to believe whatever they want to believe if they are fully convinced of that thing in their own mind.  Through my own struggle I've come to believe that Jesus is the way, He's proven to be the way for me and has helped me personally become better. Am I perfect, no, but better, heck yeah.  So all of this to say that just like everyone says, Christianity is about a RELATIONSHIP.  Its you and your God, let man do whatever they want to do and face Him.  Just my opinion.


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## discobiscuits (Mar 11, 2010)

Hair2Here said:


> I was reading through the new posts today and stumbled across a thread being shared by non-theist/free thinkers and the like.  At first I was really upset.  But then an overwhelming sadness came over me because I was actually worried about their souls.
> 
> I can't imagine my life w/o my Heavenly Father, my Jesus and the Holy Spirit.  When I wasn't saved, I felt as if I missed out on so much (experiencing His love, blessings, protection, etc).  So, I just felt awful that they were missing out on the same.  But I love each and every one of them *dispite their ignorance of the truth.*  I believe everyone has some inclination that God is the one true God.
> 
> ...



not everyone in that thread is ignorant of the truth. some have decided that the truth is not their truth. that is their choice and their right.  as much as you, i or other christians may pray that they find jesus, some have decided that it is not for them after they had knowledge and some were even believers at one time.

i agree we do need to pray for any non-believer or un-believer not just the ones on a hair forum. i'm confident that we come into contact with more un-believers in our day to day lives than the handful we communicate with almost daily here.

some christians (on this forum and IRL) have set such bad examples that we've pushed people away from jesus.

did you read the whole thread??????? or did you just see the title and decide that the topic was not one you shared so you skipped it? 



Poohbear said:


> *I actually found the thread to be quite interesting and enlightening.  *
> 
> I myself am struggling with the whole idea of what it means to be a Christian.  I feel like I'm becoming Agnostic due to all the division among Christianity, corruption, and hypocrisy.  If Jesus is the one true way, then why are so many "Christians" abusing God's grace with their sins, and at the same time, looking down on others who sin or don't believe in God or Jesus?  Aren't you as a Christian acting like someone who doesn't believe in God when you sin all day everyday and make an excuse that you can't stop because of your sinful fleshly nature from Adam?



i learn something every time i see a thread like that here. 

as for becoming Agnostic, i don't think you need to go that route. you can still be a bible-believing, holy spirit filled believer in christ and shun the division, corruption, and hypocrisy found in the body and outside of the body. you can still believe & not be a part of that mess. 

that is why jesus came, so we can have a personal, one on one, intimate, two way relationship with god through his son jesus our kinsman redeemer.

christianity is so much simpler than people make it out to be.

if you love Him you will keep his commandments because they are not grievous to you. you will keep the commandments b/c you love your fellow man, you love your fellow man like you love yourself and you would never do evil to yourself. 

so if you love your neighbor like yourself & love jesus you will automatically keep his commandments with little effort b/c love will not let you lie, cheat, murder, steal, commit sexual sin or immorality, hold grudges/unforgiveness, you will be kind, loving, gentle, meek (but not weak), not vengeful, not full of wrath... 

this is where the law and the prophets are: love God & your neighbor like yourself & you fulfill the requirements. it really is that simple. all the debates and arguments about things like sabbath, food, church attendance, tithes, etc. if you love and you pray and are filled w/ the holy spirit all truth will be revealed to you. all that other stuff one does out of obedience to god through believing as revealed to them through the HS via god's living word -Jesus (John 1:14) and the written word - the bible.



> matt 22:36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'* 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."*


*




			Mark 12:28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

 29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these."

 32"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

 34When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.
		
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			Luke 10:25On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

 26"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

 27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'[c]; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[d]"

 28"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

 29But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

 30In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35The next day he took out two silver coins[e] and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'

 36"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"

 37The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
      Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."
		
Click to expand...


*


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## Poohbear (Mar 12, 2010)

sidney said:


> You know, it really bothers me when people misrepresent Christ. But it's important for us to realize that despite what other people do, we all willl have to give a PERSONAL account to God for our lives. And we won't have the others there to point our finger at. It will just be each individual person and God. I pray that no one lets someone else's walk hinder them from getting to God. Because in the end, each journey is an individual one.
> 
> Also, regarding the bolded. We must be careful what you gain from others. The bible says "There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death."


Yes, we must be careful what we gain from others... that goes for Christians and non-Christians alike.  We can get a lot of "junk", crookedness, and perversions from self-proclaimed Christians as well. Before even entering that Non-Theists/FreeThinkers/Atheists thread, I had those thoughts and feelings which started 2-3 years ago. We can't just live this life completely blind and ignorant to what else is out there.  

And yes, each journey is an individual one but our beliefs, values, morals, etc. do come from what we have been taught by people or have gain from other sources.

And about this quote: "There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death."
Why do so many Christians follow what seems right to man? Fornication? Homosexuality? Lying? Stealing? Cheating? Gossip? Profanity? Etc. Its end is death, correct?  Either you're 100% for God or not at all, no matter how much you claim to believe and love Jesus Christ for dying on the cross for the punishment of your sins. Like 1star said, if we as Christians love Him so much and believe in Him so much, we would keep His commandments and truly repent of our sins.


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## plainj (Mar 12, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> I actually found the thread to be quite interesting and enlightening.
> 
> I myself am struggling with the whole idea of what it means to be a Christian.  *I feel like I'm becoming Agnostic due to all the division among Christianity, corruption, and hypocrisy.*  If Jesus is the one true way, then why are so many "Christians" abusing God's grace with their sins, and at the same time, looking down on others who sin or don't believe in God or Jesus?  Aren't you as a Christian acting like someone who doesn't believe in God when you sin all day everyday and make an excuse that you can't stop because of your sinful fleshly nature from Adam?


Poohbear, please don't say that. I know that this walk can be discouraging, disheartening, and confusing sometimes but your life is so much better with Jesus in it than not in it. You hold on to Him. He's holding on to you. Immerse yourself in His Word and He will reveal the truth to you. Focus on Him and only Him right now and no one else and He will show you. Please.


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## pearlygurl (Mar 12, 2010)

1star said:


> that is why jesus came, so we can have a personal, one on one, intimate, two way relationship with god through his son jesus our kinsman redeemer.
> 
> *christianity is so much simpler than people make it out to be.*
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for the bolded....I've been saying this for years!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Hair2Here (Mar 12, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> I actually found the thread to be quite interesting and enlightening.
> 
> I myself am struggling with the whole idea of what it means to be a Christian. I feel like I'm becoming Agnostic due to all the division among Christianity, corruption, and hypocrisy. If Jesus is the one true way, then why are so many "Christians" abusing God's grace with their sins, and at the same time, looking down on others who sin or don't believe in God or Jesus? Aren't you as a Christian acting like someone who doesn't believe in God when you sin all day everyday and make an excuse that you can't stop because of your sinful fleshly nature from Adam?


 
It's not for us to allow who we see in church change our beliefs in God.  Shucks, some of my family members are corrupt or hypocritical and because of this, we are divided.  But I came out from among them, I still show them that I do love them and I will not let my feelings for them change because of what they do or say.  The same goes for church people.  Anyone can be religious and call themselves Christians.  

I will continue to be at my home church without allowing the hypocrites, the division of the people change my way of thinking.  We have to be stronger than this!  There are alot of influences out there and we can't give up because someone is making it harder for us to remain faithful to Christ.  After all, we have to look ahead and please him.  Who cares about the troubles other Christians give us.  There's a God who's stronger than them and they will have to answer to Him.  In the meantime, I'm going to come out from among them too, love them but know that God will deal with it.  It doesn't up set me at all when a Christian will look down at me, curse me out (it has happened), call me out my name or question my salvation.  I take it and go on.  Doesn't make me change my beliefs or question if there is a God!


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## hair_rehab (Mar 12, 2010)

As many atheists, free thinkers and agnostics, etc. that exist, there are still millions of people across the world who are accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior everyday. I used to be an agnostic too, but meanwhile someone was praying for my salvation and that is what we also have to do as the body of Christ. If we begin to question our own faith because of the actions of others, then we are giving satan just what he wants. But it's the effective, fervent prayer of the righteous man that avails much!


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## Barbie83 (Mar 12, 2010)

Thanks for this thread. I'm a regular in OffTopic and everytime I check in, its bumped to the top. *sigh*..... I know people have their different beliefs, but I just can't imagine how someone can truly consider the complexities of the human body or the earth or the solar sytem and just think that it all threw itself together randomly 

How do you profess that there is no God? Like, how do you DO that? 

We could argue all day long on whether or not God exists, but at the end of the day, if i HAVE to be wrong, which is a better scenario:

A) Live life as if God exists, then when u die, that's it.  

B) Live life as if there is _no_ God, then when u die, you meet He who you denied.


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## Laela (Mar 12, 2010)

*AMEN .....*




hair_rehab said:


> As many atheists, free thinkers and agnostics, etc. that exist, there are still millions of people across the world who are accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior everyday. I used to be an agnostic too, but meanwhile someone was praying for my salvation and that is what we also have to do as the body of Christ. *If we begin to question our own faith because of the actions of others, then we are giving satan just what he wants.* But it's the effective, fervent prayer of the righteous man that avails much!


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## Barbie83 (Mar 12, 2010)

hair_rehab said:


> As many atheists, free thinkers and agnostics, etc. that exist, there are still millions of people across the world who are accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior everyday. I used to be an agnostic too, but meanwhile someone was praying for my salvation and that is what we also have to do as the body of Christ. *If we begin to question our own faith because of the actions of others, then we are giving satan just what he wants.* But it's the effective, fervent prayer of the righteous man that avails much!



And a second


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## Hair2Here (Mar 12, 2010)

hair_rehab said:


> As many atheists, free thinkers and agnostics, etc. that exist, there are still millions of people across the world who are accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior everyday. I used to be an agnostic too, but meanwhile someone was praying for my salvation and that is what we also have to do as the body of Christ. If we begin to question our own faith because of the actions of others, then we are giving satan just what he wants. But it's the effective, fervent prayer of the righteous man that avails much!


 
Wow!  That's what I'm talking about!  I would love to cut and paste this in the other thread!


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## phynestone (Mar 12, 2010)

This is a good thread. 

Poohbear, God never said our walk was going to be easy. Please don't become discouraged. I will pray for you.


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## sunnysmyler (Mar 12, 2010)

Hey guys....I had to comment in that thread....Barbie83 I saw that you tried and it got a bit ugly, but Please go read what I wrote and let me know what you think. 

I TRIED AND TRIED, BUT I WAS SO BOTHERED IN MY SPIRIT, I JUST HAD TO SAY SOMETHING. 

THE WORD SAYS WE MUST CONTEND FOR OUR FAITH! I CONTENDED, LOL


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## sunnysmyler (Mar 12, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Yes, we must be careful what we gain from others... that goes for Christians and non-Christians alike. We can get a lot of "junk", crookedness, and perversions from self-proclaimed Christians as well. Before even entering that Non-Theists/FreeThinkers/Atheists thread, I had those thoughts and feelings which started 2-3 years ago. We can't just live this life completely blind and ignorant to what else is out there.
> 
> And yes, each journey is an individual one but our beliefs, values, morals, etc. do come from what we have been taught by people or have gain from other sources.
> 
> ...


 
Pooh....Jesus doesn't expect you to be "perfect" but to not practice sin. This is the thing, the only perfect on died on the cross. This is what I do, every day I wake up, my goal for the day, that day is to fulfill the will of GOD, not commit sin and put my flesh under subjection and listen for me it's so hard sometimes cause my work environment is very carnal "law enforcement". That's it. I don't set myself up for failure, I have and I feel so disappointed in myself, and guess what. Some sins, I don't even desire to do anymore, but ohh those thorns.....constantly pricking me in my side. lol......but I press on! I gave Jesus my heart and I won't take it back. 

Pooh, you are an intelligent, thinking woman, God knew that when He allowed the sperm of your father fertillize the egg of your mother. Pray to GOD for further revelation of who HE is to you. Tell Him you wanna know Him in an even deeper more personal way. He will reveal Himself. 

Remember, God is not a man, that he would lie Numbers 23:19


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## Hair2Here (Mar 12, 2010)

sunnysmyler said:


> Hey guys....I had to comment in that thread....Barbie83 I saw that you tried and it got a bit ugly, but Please go read what I wrote and let me know what you think.
> 
> I TRIED AND TRIED, BUT I WAS SO BOTHERED IN MY SPIRIT, I JUST HAD TO SAY SOMETHING.
> 
> THE WORD SAYS WE MUST CONTEND FOR OUR FAITH! I CONTENDED, LOL


 
Wow!  I can't believe what I read.  It almost made me feel sick.  I feel soo, soo sorry for them.  It's so sad!


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## sidney (Mar 12, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Yes, we must be careful what we gain from others... that goes for Christians and non-Christians alike. We can get a lot of "junk", crookedness, and perversions from self-proclaimed Christians as well. Before even entering that Non-Theists/FreeThinkers/Atheists thread, I had those thoughts and feelings which started 2-3 years ago. We can't just live this life completely blind and ignorant to what else is out there.
> 
> And yes, each journey is an individual one but our beliefs, values, morals, etc. do come from what we have been taught by people or have gain from other sources.
> 
> ...


 
Poohbear, being a christian is not a free pass to sin.  One of the ways we know we are saved, is that we hate sin.  A person that truly loves God will not want to frustrate God's grace.  They will be convicted and comfortable, and they will change.  Years later you will barely recognize these folks because they will be so different, but it doesn't happen over night.  Some "christians" do do all of the things you mention.   Some have not matured in Christ yet, some are struggling with a sin, and some of them aren't saved but they think they are because they said a little prayer 10 years ago.  In the end, we should not look to what man says, but what does God say.  And that goes for christians too!  I don't believe any and every opinion from a christian, I want to know, what does the bible say?  Stay focused on Christ and you will be fine, I know you will. 

*Psalm 1*
*Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked 
 or stand in the way of sinners 
 or sit in the seat of mockers. *

* But his delight is in the law of the LORD, 
 and on his law he meditates day and night. ** He is like a tree planted by streams of water, 
  which yields its fruit in season 
  and whose leaf does not wither. 
  Whatever he does prospers.*


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## Hair2Here (Mar 12, 2010)

I'm so glad you shared in this thread.  It has been truly uplifting in a very good way.  Sharing, encouraging, etc.


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## Poohbear (Mar 13, 2010)

hair_rehab said:


> As many atheists, free thinkers and agnostics, etc. that exist, there are still millions of people across the world who are accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior everyday. I used to be an agnostic too, but meanwhile someone was praying for my salvation and that is what we also have to do as the body of Christ. *If we begin to question our own faith because of the actions of others, then we are giving satan just what he wants.* But it's the effective, fervent prayer of the righteous man that avails much!


By the way, I'm not questioning my faith solely on the actions of others. If I did, that would make me gullible.  I question my faith for several different reasons.

And why is Satan always the blame? _"I sinned because of my sinful fleshly nature and Satan made me do it."_ Yeah right! You did it yourself. Satan can only tempt or roar, but he cannot devour or destroy. 

Every single person on this earth is alive and consciously living. We make choices to do either right or wrong, to either love God or reject God, to either believe or not believe. We are not robots.


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## Poohbear (Mar 13, 2010)

sidney said:


> Poohbear, being a christian is not a free pass to sin. One of the ways we know we are saved, is that we hate sin. A person that truly loves God will not want to frustrate God's grace. They will be convicted and comfortable, and they will change. Years later you will barely recognize these folks because they will be so different, but it doesn't happen over night. Some "christians" do do all of the things you mention. Some have not matured in Christ yet, some are struggling with a sin, and some of them aren't saved but they think they are because they said a little prayer 10 years ago. In the end, we should not look to what man says, but what does God say. And that goes for christians too! I don't believe any and every opinion from a christian, I want to know, what does the bible say? Stay focused on Christ and you will be fine, I know you will.
> 
> *Psalm 1*
> *Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked *
> ...


Exactly, that's the thing. I'm looking at what my Bible says. It says being a Christian is not a free pass to sin, in Romans 6.  But why are we as Christians making it out to be that way?  _"We're struggling with sin."_ How so and why? Are we really Christians if we are struggling with sin still? Believers shouldn't struggle with sin if they believe Jesus died for their sins. When Christians accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior, we're suppose to refrain from sin, repent from sin, die to sin just as Jesus died and rose again.  The struggle that the Bible speaks of with believers is the struggle with temptation, the struggle with persecution for doing right! not for doing wrong or for sinning. The Bible says he who is born of God does not sin. The Bible says if you love me you'll keep my commandments.  There's no way around that.  How can any one of us call each other Christians and we are doing the same sins "every now and then" that bad people do?


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## Poohbear (Mar 13, 2010)

sunnysmyler said:


> Pooh....*Jesus doesn't expect you to be "perfect" but to not practice sin. *This is the thing, the only perfect on died on the cross. This is what I do, every day I wake up, my goal for the day, that day is to fulfill the will of GOD, not commit sin and put my flesh under subjection and listen for me it's so hard sometimes cause my work environment is very carnal "law enforcement". That's it. I don't set myself up for failure, I have and I feel so disappointed in myself, and guess what. Some sins, I don't even desire to do anymore, but ohh those thorns.....constantly pricking me in my side. lol......but I press on! I gave Jesus my heart and I won't take it back.
> 
> Pooh, you are an intelligent, thinking woman, God knew that when He allowed the sperm of your father fertillize the egg of your mother. Pray to GOD for further revelation of who HE is to you. Tell Him you wanna know Him in an even deeper more personal way. He will reveal Himself.
> 
> Remember, God is not a man, that he would lie Numbers 23:19


 
Define "not practicing sin". Doing any sin, whether it's everyday or once a year, is practicing sin. Jesus doesn't want us to sin, so why do we do it if we're suppose to love Him and spread the Gospel? Whether it's a "big" sin or "little" sin, ALL sin is displeasing to God. God hates ALL sin. How can we be an effective witness to a nonbeliever and we are lying, or fornicating, or making fun of people, or using curse words, and so on? That's practicing sin. We are being disobedient when we sin and fall out of fellowship with God. There's no way we are showing love to God when we sin every now and then.


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## sidney (Mar 13, 2010)

Poohbear, it seems that no one can convince you otherwise about this.  Paul himself said that he struggled with doing what he did not want to do (Romans 7:14), and he wrote most of the new testament and had the most spiritual revelation from God of any christian to date.  I don't think anyone here is doing any and everything under the sun, we are just admitting that we are not perfect.  For example, we might catch an attitude every now and then, etc.  Regarding the scripture you are referencing, other people have offered other scriptures that state that we all do sin.  For example, some one mentioned the scripture that says "who that says he is without sin is a liar."  God also says in his scripture that "there is none righteous, not one."  God himself also says that "our righteousness is as filthy rags."  Look at scriptures in conext of the whole bible.


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## zenith (Mar 13, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Define "not practicing sin". Doing any sin, whether it's everyday or once a year, is practicing sin. Jesus doesn't want us to sin, so why do we do it if we're suppose to love Him and spread the Gospel? Whether it's a "big" sin or "little" sin, ALL sin is displeasing to God. God hates ALL sin. How can we be an effective witness to a nonbeliever and we are lying, or fornicating, or making fun of people, or using curse words, and so on? That's practicing sin. We are being disobedient when we sin and fall out of fellowship with God. There's no way we are showing love to God when we sin every now and then.




When you get convicted of the wrong that you have done and repent, God restores you back. That is why God said that David was a man after His own heart because the minute he was alerted of his errors he quickly repented. Even the Bible says if we confess of our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.

God uses believers to minister to the unbelievers that is to plan the seed, or water it, but God is the one that makes the seed grow. 

1cor 3:7 says the one who plants the seed and the one who water it are not important, but God who keeps everything growing IS.


As for the continuing to practise sin, this is now a case of who is in control of your life, is it God or the flesh.
Many people jump up and say, "i'm born again." yet live like worse than the heathen. You will know them by their fruits.

The flesh has to die daily as Paul said. And it is hard to die daily. How many times do you want to flip the drive behind you for hooting and tailgating? How many times do you want to click your tongue at your boss or the check out girl?  
Most of the time christian use justification as an excuse, "well they deserved it, they hurt me, the ignored me, they started it." 
Do you know who is the actual offended party? The flesh. The flesh wants to be justified all the time.
If you put the flesh to death on a daily basis, you will overcome.
Yes, you will slip and fall, the righteous man falls 7 times and 7 times he will rise up.


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 13, 2010)

I saw the thread title and passed right by it, because I knew it's nothing for me to be inquisitive about, so I didn't have a need to read anything in it.

However, I'm interested in why any of you would venture over to a thread like that?  The bible tells us to “_Guard your heart with all diligence for out of it flow the issues of life._” (Prov 4:23) Our eye gates are especially important to guard, because it can directly affect us in our thought patterns, if we are wavering...and there are many that do.

Those things aren't important to understand for us as believers. Yes, its helpful to read and understand about these things, but find out about it in another avenue, not on a forum where there will be hostility.   It will only take the power of God to turn people who believe in such things, towards the One and only true and living God!

Remember the apostle Paul persecuted Christians and had them killed before his experience with Jesus, while on his way to kill some more.  When you truly experience Jesus, face to face, your life is totally changed, just like his was, and you can't help but proclaim Jesus and His salvation for mankind!

Ladies, I beseech you, keep your focus on the One in whom we have to do.  Those things that are being spoken isn't something that is important...even if it may hurt your feelings and offend you.  Keep your eyes upon the prize and help to bring as many people as you can with you to get that prize as well!

May the Lord give you peace and may the joy of the Lord continue to be your strength!!!



N&W


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## dicapr (Mar 13, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Define "not practicing sin". Doing any sin, whether it's everyday or once a year, is practicing sin. Jesus doesn't want us to sin, so why do we do it if we're suppose to love Him and spread the Gospel? Whether it's a "big" sin or "little" sin, ALL sin is displeasing to God. God hates ALL sin. How can we be an effective witness to a nonbeliever and we are lying, or fornicating, or making fun of people, or using curse words, and so on? That's practicing sin. We are being disobedient when we sin and fall out of fellowship with God. There's no way we are showing love to God when we sin every now and then.


 

To me practicing sin occurs when we no longer strive to do what we know is right.  There are those who are aware of the sins in their lives, take ownership of the sin, and are in a state of continuous communion with God to change their minds and hearts and to give them victory over the sin.  People forget the Christianity is based on the fact that we are imperfect creatures who need Christ to change us.  The whole idea that once we accept Christ we are perfect has no biblical base.  I call those beliefs  Christian folklore.  Look at David, a man after God's own heart.  He lied, murdered, committed adultry, ect.  Yet God still found him worthy of having Jesus come through his bloodline. David's hearts desire was to be sinless and serve God. He longed for the things of God and often his sins were not premeditated.  David simply made mistakes. He also took ownership for his bad choices. Even when he took Bathsheba and killed her husband he did not understand the gravity of his error until the prophet pointed it out to him.  Although he was a sinner, it was never his intent to move away from the word of God. 
There are others who belive that God's grace excuses them of their responsibility to do right.  They do not struggle against their nature and take it for granted that their will be forgiveness.  They are practicing sin.  
They are also those who subscribe to the whole "devil made me do it" excuse.  A pastor said once that we need to stop blaming the devil for stuff he didn't do.  Yes, when we are tempted it is not from God, but often times it our struggle with our own lusts and lack of relationship with God that does us in.  We are ultimately responsible for the bad choices we make, whether we were tempted by Satan or our own sinful nature.   Adam and Eve were held accountable for the choice they made of their own free will just as we will be.


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## SND411 (Mar 13, 2010)

Nice & Wavy said:


> *I saw the thread title and passed right by it, because I knew it's nothing for me to be inquisitive about, so I didn't have a need to read anything in it.
> 
> However, I'm interested in why any of you would venture over to a thread like that?  The bible tells us to “Guard your heart with all diligence for out of it flow the issues of life.” (Prov 4:23) Our eye gates are especially important to guard, because it can directly affect us in our thought patterns, if we are wavering...and there are many that do.
> 
> ...



I should have taken this advice. Thanks for this post


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## Hair2Here (Mar 13, 2010)

Nice & Wavy said:


> I saw the thread title and passed right by it, because I knew it's nothing for me to be inquisitive about, so I didn't have a need to read anything in it.
> 
> However, I'm interested in why any of you would venture over to a thread like that? The bible tells us to “_Guard your heart with all diligence for out of it flow the issues of life._” (Prov 4:23) Our eye gates are especially important to guard, because it can directly affect us in our thought patterns, if we are wavering...and there are many that do.
> 
> ...


 Hi Nice and Wavy,

You are correct.  But the Word also teaches us to spread the Gospel.  For those who visited the other thread, our intent was to not go in a full debate with the nonbelievers but just to express our love and concern for their souls.  Believe me, it was all done out of love. This is what prompted me to begin this thread.  It sadden me so.  I for one believe in sharing the 'good news' with all nonbelievers.  If I can plant the seed, God can have someone add water knowing He will get the increase.  You never know what soul may be saved from being a witness.  Even in a thread like that.

A perfect example in this thread was another atheist who is now a believer.  Did you read her blessing?  It was very inspirational and I'm glad she was able to share.  

We were not concern about the content in the other thread but about serving God and winning souls.  The title alone is enough to know what they were talking about.  

You used the perfect person in the Holy Bible, "Paul".  God used Paul to preach the Living Word, to share the Truth to save souls.  

Thanks for that example.


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 13, 2010)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> I should have taken this advice. Thanks for this post


You are truly welcome, sis.


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## dicapr (Mar 13, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Exactly, that's the thing. I'm looking at what my Bible says. It says being a Christian is not a free pass to sin, in Romans 6. But why are we as Christians making it out to be that way? _"We're struggling with sin."_ How so and why? Are we really Christians if we are struggling with sin still? Believers shouldn't struggle with sin if they believe Jesus died for their sins. When Christians accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior, we're suppose to refrain from sin, repent from sin, die to sin just as Jesus died and rose again. The struggle that the Bible speaks of with believers is the struggle with temptation, the struggle with persecution for doing right! not for doing wrong or for sinning. The Bible says he who is born of God does not sin. The Bible says if you love me you'll keep my commandments. There's no way around that. How can any one of us call each other Christians and we are doing the same sins "every now and then" that bad people do?


 
We often do not allow ourselves and indivduals around us to grow up spiritually.  Peter denied Jesus, yet Jesus chose him to "feed" his sheep. If we held Peter up to the Christian standard looking at his actions and not his heart as God did we would not have left Peter in charge. Paul struggled saying that the things he wanted to do he didn't and the things he didn't want to do he did. We shake our heads at indivduals who don't meet our "Christian" standards never knowing how far they have come in their walk.  How are Christians who sin different from those who are sinners?  It is the difference between someone who walks out of the store with something in their hand not meaning to take it and the person who stuffs their purse before leaving.  Christians don't intend to sin, knowing that it separates them from the Lord.  It is a mometary lapse, weakness, or in some cases ignorance of what is required of them.  Sinners do not consider the right or wrong of the action, God's right to make demands on how the conduct themselves, and do not fear the separation that occurs from sinning. The difference is motivation not action.


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## SND411 (Mar 13, 2010)

Hair2Here said:


> Hi Nice and Wavy,
> 
> You are correct.  But the Word also teaches us to spread the Gospel.  For those who visited the other thread, our intent was to not go in a full debate with the nonbelievers but just to express our love and concern for their souls.  Believe me, it was all done out of love. This is what prompted me to begin this thread.  It sadden me so.  I for one believe in sharing the 'good news' with all nonbelievers.  If I can plant the seed, God can have someone add water knowing He will get the increase.  You never know what soul may be saved from being a witness.  Even in a that thread.
> 
> ...



The thing is, we also have to know when it's most advantageous to do so. Look at my posts in that thread. I was not even trying to prostlyze but offer another point of view, which was completely ripped to shreds (you would think free-thinkers would be open to all kinds of thought).

Sometimes it's best just to pray or perhaps find other ways. I honestly think we as Christians need to do more action and less "just talking."


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## SND411 (Mar 13, 2010)

dicapr said:


> We often do not allow ourselves and indivduals around us to grow up spiritually.  Peter denied Jesus, yet Jesus chose him to "feed" his sheep. If we held Peter up to the Christian standard looking at his actions and not his heart as God did we would not have left Peter in charge. Paul struggled saying that the things he wanted to do he didn't and the things he didn't want to do he did. We shake our heads at indivduals who don't meet our "Christian" standards never knowing how far they have come in their walk.  How are Christians who sin different from those who are sinners?  It is the difference between someone who walks out of the store with something in their hand not meaning to take it and the person who stuffs their purse before leaving.  Christians don't intend to sin, knowing that it separates them from the Lord.  It is a mometary lapse, weakness, or in some cases ignorance of what is required of them.  Sinners do not consider the right or wrong of the action, God's right to make demands on how the conduct themselves, and do not fear the separation that occurs from sinning. The difference is motivation not action.



I also find that some sins are more acceptable to "shake our heads" at. If people could look into our lives and shake their heads at every mistake we made, we would just offer the excuse, "well, I'm not perfect." How come we don't offer that reason for others? *thinking*


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 13, 2010)

I totally understand why you would want to go there for that purpose (sharing the Gospel), in love, but...even when we are to spread the Gospel, we must use wisdom into which venue we go to share it.

If we go to a gay bar and begin preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, in love, to them....there may be a riot up in there and someone may/will get hurt.   My point is, we may have all the right intentions in the world to go into a thread like that, but knowing what the outcome will be, will only cause us more heartache, because rejection will be at your very door.  Just as the Lord bought us to Himself, the people that need Jesus will also come to Him.  If the Lord uses us to lead them into a prayer of Salvation, then we will be used by Him to do so.  

I have had many people come to me via pm's, asked questions, and gave their lives over to Jesus Christ.  It's a beautiful thing.

I have 3 good friends who were once atheists, that are now filled with the Spirit of God, and are preaching the Gospel all over the world.  I was told that what bought them to the Lord, was the fact that they watched true believers continue in their stand with the Lord, and not waiver.  They wanted to have their peace and their joy, because although they knew they didn't believe in anyone to save them, they didn't have the peace that they saw the true Christians have, and they wanted it.

Our call is to minister to all people, but remember this...there will be people who will see Jesus crack the sky and still won't believe.

Winning souls is what Jesus does, sis.  We are just to bring the people to the foot of the cross.  He does the rest.  We can stay right in the CF and people will come to Christ...happens all the time.

Loving you with the love of the Lord!

N&W



Hair2Here said:


> Hi Nice and Wavy,
> 
> You are correct.  But the Word also teaches us to spread the Gospel.  For those who visited the other thread, our intent was to not go in a full debate with the nonbelievers but just to express our love and concern for their souls.  Believe me, it was all done out of love. This is what prompted me to begin this thread.  It sadden me so.  I for one believe in sharing the 'good news' with all nonbelievers.  If I can plant the seed, God can have someone add water knowing He will get the increase.  You never know what soul may be saved from being a witness.  Even in a that thread.
> 
> ...


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## Hair2Here (Mar 13, 2010)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> The thing is, we also have to know when it's most advantageous to do so. Look at my posts in that thread. I was not even trying to prostlyze but offer another point of view, which was completely ripped to shreds (you would think free-thinkers would be open to all kinds of thought).
> 
> Sometimes it's best just to pray or perhaps find other ways. I honestly think we as Christians need to do more action and less "just talking."


 
I'm still glad you did what you did.  Again, someone may still be pondering over your 'point of view'.  

Short story:  I was witnessing in the worst part of Philly.  I gave this individual a Holy Bible and ask him to read it and told him God loves him.  I walked away.  The next think I knew, I felt the Bible hitting me in the back.  Just because he tossed it away, doesn't mean someone else won't pick it up and read it.  With that being said, I'm not looking for total acceptance when I do witness. I just do my part and move on.  I never go into debates over the Word because I do not believe it was written for that purpose.  I try and follow Jesus' steps and do all things in love.  It's hard but I'm not doing it for me.


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## Poohbear (Mar 13, 2010)

sidney said:


> Poohbear, it seems that no one can convince you otherwise about this. Paul himself said that he struggled with doing what he did not want to do (Romans 7:14), and he wrote most of the new testament and had the most spiritual revelation from God of any christian to date. I don't think anyone here is doing any and everything under the sun, we are just admitting that we are not perfect. For example, we might catch an attitude every now and then, etc. Regarding the scripture you are referencing, other people have offered other scriptures that state that we all do sin. For example, some one mentioned the scripture that says "who that says he is without sin is a liar." God also says in his scripture that "there is none righteous, not one." God himself also says that "our righteousness is as filthy rags." Look at scriptures in conext of the whole bible.


I'm not trying to get convinced of anything. To me, a sinning Christian makes NO sense to me...especially when that sinning Christian points out the wrongs of other people. To me, the bible contradicts itself in so many ways. Just like the verse you mentioned about he who says they're without sin is a liar. Then it says he who sins in not of God and a child of the devil. It's like you can't win for losing as a Christian. So I don't know if I can call myself a Bible-believing Christian anymore. There are alot of principles in the Bible that are good as far as how we should live, but everything else is a big confusing unrealistic mess.


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## Hair2Here (Mar 13, 2010)

Nice & Wavy said:


> I totally understand why you would want to go there for that purpose (sharing the Gospel), in love, but...even when we are to spread the Gospel, we must use wisdom into which venue we go to share it.
> 
> If we go to a gay bar and begin preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, in love, to them....there may be a riot up in there and someone may/will get hurt. My point is, we may have all the right intentions in the world to go into a thread like that, but knowing what the outcome will be, will only cause us more heartache, because rejection will be at your very door. Just as the Lord bought us to Himself, the people that need Jesus will also come to Him. If the Lord uses us to lead them into a prayer of Salvation, then we will be used by Him to do so.
> 
> ...


 
I gotcha sis....   Here's a wonderful story.  The Pastor who married me went into a bar to witness.  One guy said, "Preacher man, if you sit at this bar and have one drink with me, I'll come to your church and praise your God".  The Pastor did it.  It was extreme but it they guy came to church with him.  The guy now is a deacon at his church.  

I believe this is an awesome story.  If the Pastor was asked to leave, I'm sure he would not have put up a fight.  Again, when I witness, I do not know what to expect.  I know for certain that I can't expect everyone to be Christ-like in every situation since they are not saved.  I do not put myself in a situation where I would have to defend myself or pray my way out of.


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## Poohbear (Mar 13, 2010)

zenith said:


> When you get convicted of the wrong that you have done and repent, God restores you back. That is why God said that David was a man after His own heart because the minute he was alerted of his errors he quickly repented. Even the Bible says if we confess of our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.
> 
> God uses believers to minister to the unbelievers that is to plan the seed, or water it, but God is the one that makes the seed grow.
> 
> ...


 
About repentance, you must refrain from the sin completely in order to be completely restored in fellowship with God. We can't go back to that same sin and expect "Oh, God's gonna forgive me anyway and restore me back in his love and care and salvation."

"Die daily" means "dying to the flesh" and "resisting sin" and "not yielding to sin"... it does not mean "sinning everyday, asking for forgiveness everyday, repenting everday"....


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 13, 2010)

Hair2Here said:


> I gotcha sis....   Here's a wonderful story.  The Pastor who married me went into a bar to witness.  One guy said, "Preacher man, if you sit at this bar and have one drink with me, I'll come to your church and praise your God".  The Pastor did it.  It was extreme but it they guy came to church with him.  The guy now is a deacon at his church.
> 
> I believe this is an awesome story.  If the Pastor was asked to leave, I'm sure he would not have put up a fight.  Again, when I witness, I do not know what to expect.  I know for certain that I can't expect everyone to be Christ-like in every situation since they are not saved.  I do not put myself in a situation where I would have to defend myself or pray my way out of.


Awesome story, yet I'm sure the Lord sent your Pastor there because that man was ready in his heart.  Not everyone is ready.

It's a wonderful thing to witness the Gospel.  I wouldn't try to hinder you or anyone for that matter.  I encourage people to witness because how will people know about Jesus, if there is no one to tell them.

Be encouraged, sis.  Jesus will reign forever!!!

God bless you, always!


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 13, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> I'm not trying to get convinced of anything. To me, a sinning Christian makes NO sense to me...especially when that sinning Christian points out the wrongs of other people. To me, the bible contradicts itself in so many ways. Just like the verse you mentioned about he who says they're without sin is a liar. Then it says he who sins in not of God and a child of the devil. *It's like you can't win for losing as a Christian. So I don't know if I can call myself a Bible-believing Christian anymore.* There are alot of principles in the Bible that are good as far as how we should live, but everything else is a big confusing unrealistic mess.


Poohbear, sounds like you have your mind made up.  Sometimes when you have your mind made up, nothing anyone says or do will change your mind.

Take care of yourself.  

N&W


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## Hair2Here (Mar 13, 2010)

Nice & Wavy said:


> I totally understand why you would want to go there for that purpose (sharing the Gospel), in love, but...even when we are to spread the Gospel, we must use wisdom into which venue we go to share it.
> 
> If we go to a gay bar and begin preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, in love, to them....there may be a riot up in there and someone may/will get hurt. My point is, we may have all the right intentions in the world to go into a thread like that, but knowing what the outcome will be, will only cause us more heartache, because rejection will be at your very door. Just as the Lord bought us to Himself, the people that need Jesus will also come to Him. If the Lord uses us to lead them into a prayer of Salvation, then we will be used by Him to do so.
> 
> ...


 
I gotcha sis....   Here's a wonderful story.  The Pastor who married me went into a bar to witness.  One guy said, "Preacher man, if you sit at this bar and have one drink with me, I'll come to your church and praise your God".  The Pastor did it.  It was extreme but it they guy came to church with him.  The guy now is a deacon at his church.  

I believe this is an awesome story.  If the Pastor was asked to leave, I'm sure he would not have put up a fight.  Again, when I witness, I do not know what to expect.  I know for certain that I can't expect everyone to be Christ-like in every situation since they are not saved.  I do not put myself in a situation where I would have to defend myself or pray my way out of.  

The most effective means of winning souls to Christ is by sharing the Gospel one-on-one with people.  Countless men and women have trusted Jesus as their Savior, because a friend or a stranger simply took the time to explain the Gospel to them.
Witnessing is OUR responsibility too. I'm not concerned about rejection or heartache.  Worrying about that will only add fear to my witnessing.  In fact, I expect it and let God handle it.  

We can witness, win souls and Jesus will offer his salvation.  Again, I take myself out of it.

_Jesus said, "Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled." —Luke 14:23 _

_Love and Blessings.....Hair2Here_


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## discobiscuits (Mar 13, 2010)

WARNING! WARNING! DISSERTATION ALERT!!​


Hair2Here said:


> Wow!  That's what I'm talking about!  I would love to cut and paste this in the other thread!


what's stopping you? you went in that thread and invited people to this one. they copied and pasted from this thread into that thread so why are you not "contending" your faith? BTW, i am not encouraging you to cause dischord over there. we are called to live peacefully with others so don't take my comment as encouragement to go back in that thread.  not a sermon, just a thought.



Poohbear said:


> Define "not practicing sin". Doing any sin, whether it's everyday or once a year, is *practicing* sin.


you answered it. it is exactly what you said. when i played sports, i practiced every day. when i stopped playing, i stopped everything; playing and practicing. i couldn't tell you where my tennis racket is. likewise, i never payed basketball so i never practiced playing bb. while one can commit one sin, sinning is continual willful disobedience, not just one act. just like righteousness can be one time but it is supposed to be ongoing not a one time thing at an altar or baptismal font. doctors and lawyers have a practice. they are supposed to continually hone their craft. they don't stop once they graduate, pass the bar or what have you. they must continue in their studies. same with sin OR righteousness. it is ongoing.

example: david. he did not practice sin (or if he did i did not read it in his story) but he sinned when he slept w/ Bathsheba and killed her husband. and after he repented he did not sin again (unless i again missed something). but b/c of his one (or two) recorded sin(s), there were consequences still being felt to this day.

conversely, a habitual sinner, a harlot was esteemed righteous b/c she lied and sent the men a different way. 

the act of sin is a deliberate, willful act that one consciously decides to engage in. a transgression is accidental or more accurately, not intentional . someone does commit the sin but in error. sinning is habitually committing sin, aka practicing. bottom line: sinning is continual. one can have sinned in the past but stop, repent and never sin again. 

i used to use that stuff paul wrote as an excuse for me to sin. i kept saying well it's okay b/c paul said in our flesh dwells no good thing and it serves sin but as long as my mind & heart are in the right place my body can be elsewhere. and no matter how many times i read rom 7 it reads _as if_ he is saying that he practices sin against his own will, that he cannot control it. because of that passage i've often wondered and doubted that anyone can live sin free like jesus said. OR that it was a trick bag from god to watch us try and fail. i felt paul was basically contradicting jesus. he even begins the commentary w/ had we not be told what sin was we would not know and therefore not desire to do it. translation: parent says don't do that & the child immediately wants to but if they were never restricted from it, they would not _desire_ to do it.  adam & eve were told to not eat from the tree. they didn't even think about it till its desirability was brought to their attn then they were like well why not? had they not been restricted, they may or may not have eaten from it but no matter what it could not have been used to tempt them to disobey god had god not restricted them from it. plus they could have resisted the devil but didn't.

that is what paul is saying the flesh desires to do what it is restricted from doing. and if we do those things, we do so willingly and knowingly b/c we knew what we were doing when we did it. but we would not want to do them had we been told not to do them. i don't think that he meant that it is okay to sin b/c our flesh demands it. i think he was lamenting the sate that we are in being both spirit and flesh. those two aspects of us are at war with each other. 

but in my opinion, i say that no matter what, we can set our minds to defy our flesh and cause our flesh to conform. your mind (will) and heart (intent) dictate where your body goes and what it does. your mouth utters what is in your heart/mind. words are active, creative forces that set events in motion. even unbelieving LOAers know this concept and use it successfully even w/o christ. your mind devises plans that your body carries out. you can also sin with thoughts. you can devise good or evil. it is all choice. athletes do this as well. they are tired, hurt, frustrated but they set a goal, envision achieving that goal and everything they do is to that end. science has proven that the mind controls the body. we can think a thing and the body reacts as if it is experiencing that thing even though it is not.

all of that to say: jesus taught us the heart & mind are where it begins and it counts there just as if you did it in the flesh (ex: lustful thoughts are the same as if you physically committed the sexual sin). jesus instructed practicing sinners to go and sin no more after he had forgiven them or chose not to pass judgment. that means every believer can live sin free and must decide in their minds and intend in their hearts to do so. no excuses. no "the flesh is weak" crap. that is a cop-out. jesus resisted the devil not because he is jesus but because he chose to resist and as a result showed us it can be done. 

we can clean our minds out by the word. the world uses the techniques jesus taught and they are successful and they do it apart from jesus. how much more can we who profess to have jesus do the same? how can we let unbelievers use the same tools we have and build a better house? some of us are still laying the foundation (milk) and we need to grow up and build the frame, the walls, the roof, brick it up and lock the door so that we can live, move and have our being in christ like we are supposed to. 

jesus said if we had faith, not even a lot but a little - a mustard seed- we could speak and move a mountain. literally, not figuratively. without faith we can't please god. without faith peter began to sink in the water where before he was walking on it.  jesus spoke to the weather and it obeyed. he cursed a plant and it died. we can do the same. he said that all i do those who believe on me (faith) can do the same and more. when he or the disciples healed people they spoke. he healed the roman soldier's servant miles away with a word. the soldier even knew a word is a creative force and something will obey it if the speaker possesses the authority. the tower of babel, god said what man puts his mind to do will happen. god gave man the authority in the earth in genesis. as believers filled w/ the HS we have even more power and authority. we are supposed to have faith and the mind of god and we can speak and cause things to conform to our will. if we are yielded to His will, our will will be the same as his.  why is it we cannot do what jesus said we can do? is it practicing sin? is it lack of faithful obedience? is it lack of faith? 

how dare a non-believing LOAer, new ager or similar be successful with our tools (speaking things into being) and yet we condemn them when we should be the ones to use those tools while showing others a more excellent way. how are new agers and the like so successful at drawing even believers away??? because they do just like the devil did. they use god's words/tools. in eden satan used god's own words at eve "you won't _surely_ die." didn't god say the day you eat there of you will die? who was the liar? not god. didn't satan use god's own words again against jesus? "he will bear you up". but jesus did what eve and adam failed to do: he used god's word right back. who was the liar then? the same person (satan) different outcome. 

so now someone will quote this and counter with something like well he's jesus we're not, adam and eve were not. yes that is true but that does not mean that they could not have resisted or we cannot emulate and succeed like jesus. take enoch he loved god so much he never saw death. tell me, where in the bible does it say enoch sinned? it does not. i contend that enoch did not sin which is why he was translated. the bible says sinful flesh cannot be with the lord but god took enoch in the flesh. i contend that he was an example that faithful obedience to god can be achieved. "but the bible says all have sinned and fallen short..." the bible does not say that of enoch.

and just in case there is a question of jesus' humanity, when he prayed the real lord's prayer he asked his father to take this cup from him. he did not want to die. he did not want to be tortured. he wanted a lamb in the bush like issac got. abraham faithfully obeyed God and was going to sacrifice issac but god spared isaac with a lamb. but jesus denied his human nature of self preservation and yielded himself to god's will (not my will but your will - indicating his will was not to be sacrificed). jesus did not have to do that. he could have chosen to rebel and say no, i will to not do it, but he did not. faithful obedience to the cross for our benefit.   

in my opinion because of what jesus said: i believe that any born-again believer can live a 100% sin-free life because jesus said so. if he said so then it is so. the believer can choose to sin or not to sin. it really is that simple. is it easy? not at all but it is achievable and i further contend that any believer who says it is not achievable is a liar and is calling jesus a liar.


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 13, 2010)

Hair2Here said:


> I gotcha sis....   Here's a wonderful story.  The Pastor who married me went into a bar to witness.  One guy said, "Preacher man, if you sit at this bar and have one drink with me, I'll come to your church and praise your God".  The Pastor did it.  It was extreme but it they guy came to church with him.  The guy now is a deacon at his church.
> 
> I believe this is an awesome story.  If the Pastor was asked to leave, I'm sure he would not have put up a fight.  Again, when I witness, I do not know what to expect.  I know for certain that I can't expect everyone to be Christ-like in every situation since they are not saved.  I do not put myself in a situation where I would have to defend myself or pray my way out of.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the added addition to your post.

As a person who leads many people to Christ on a weekly basis, I totally agree and understand that it is OUR responsibility to witness the Gospel to people.  I take it that what I'm sharing in this thread is not being fully understood, so I will leave by saying that I thank God that you have a heart for ministry and I thank Him that you are willing to do so gracefully.  May your continue in what you are doing in the Kingdom!

Blessings, always!

N&W


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## Guitarhero (Mar 13, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> I actually found the thread to be quite interesting and enlightening.
> 
> I myself am struggling with the whole idea of what it means to be a Christian.  I feel like I'm becoming Agnostic *due to all the division among Christianity, corruption, and hypocrisy.  If Jesus is the one true way, then why are so many "Christians" abusing God's grace with their sins, and at the same time, looking down on others who sin or don't believe in God or Jesus?*  Aren't you as a Christian acting like someone who doesn't believe in God when you sin all day everyday and make an excuse that you can't stop because of your sinful fleshly nature from Adam?



In every religion you have this.  Every last one.  For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, even you, even me, even every single person.  Romans 3:9.  RE: sin and the christian and why people keep sinning?  Obviously, we sin and keep on doing it.  Some sins are hard to break and some are easier but it all depends upon the individual and their own personal struggles. Jesus tells us to get up over and over again.  Every time we fall, get up.  That's the christian - not the perfect person who really isn't perfect. It's the humble person who realizes his weaknesses and gets up to try again.  If he tells us to forgive 70 times 7, imagine how the Father forgives even more?  If we can give good things to our children, the Father gives even more!  The reason for the division in christianity?   

[FONT=Verdana,  Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I                         have been misrepresented 
                      by those who don't know me.[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
                      John 8:41-44


[/FONT]I think that very scripture ought to hit every believer's mind every morning and with introspection and humility, look at the realities.  Are we truly His friend? Therefore, it's up to each and every individual to strive to better him/herself.  Not to brag, not to think he's perfect,but to look upward at the one who is absolute perfection and emulate Him, getting up again everytime we fall and forgiving each and every person who harms us.  There are no perfect christians.  Thank you for the reminder, dear one.  You see, even in your struggles,you have shed light on something many people need to think about. 
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]


[/FONT]​


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## Poohbear (Mar 13, 2010)

1star said:


> you answered it. it is exactly what you said. when i played sports, i practiced every day. when i stopped playing, i stopped everything; playing and practicing. i couldn't tell you where my tennis racket is. likewise, i never payed basketball so i never practiced playing bb. while one can commit one sin, sinning is continual willful disobedience, not just one act. just like righteousness can be one time but it is supposed to be ongoing not a one time thing at an altar or baptismal font. doctors and lawyers have a practice. they are supposed to continually hone their craft. they don't stop once they graduate, pass the bar or what have you. they must continue in their studies. same with sin OR righteousness. it is ongoing.example: david. he did not practice sin (or if he did i did not read it in his story) but he sinned when he slept w/ Bathsheba and killed her husband. and after he repented he did not sin again (unless i again missed something). but b/c of his one (or two) recorded sin(s), there were consequences still being felt to this day.
> conversely, a habitual sinner, a harlot was esteemed righteous b/c she lied and sent the men a different way.
> the act of sin is a deliberate, willful act that one consciously decides to engage in. a transgression is accidental or more accurately, not intentional . someone does commit the sin but in error. sinning is habitually committing sin, aka practicing. bottom line: sinning is continual. one can have sinned in the past but stop, repent and never sin again.
> 
> ...


*THANK YOU!!! Nice post 1star. Someone is seeing where I am coming from...*

*David SINNED... he did not continue to sin. He did not go back and sleep with Bathesheba. God forgave him and he repented. Yes, he was after God's heart. He stopped sinning.*

*Paul SINNED... he did not continue to sin. God forgave him and he changed from being a persecutor of Christians.*

*And Jesus told two other people in the New Testament to "Go and sin NO MORE".*

*According to the Bible, God calls for us to be WHOLEheartedly for Him, not lukewarm.*


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## Poohbear (Mar 13, 2010)

CreoleNat said:


> In every religion you have this. Every last one. For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, even you, even me, even every single person. Romans 3:9. RE: sin and the christian and why people keep sinning? Obviously, we sin and keep on doing it. Some sins are hard to break and some are easier but it all depends upon the individual and their own personal struggles. Jesus tells us to get up over and over again. Every time we fall, get up. That's the christian - not the perfect person who really isn't perfect. It's the humble person who realizes his weaknesses and gets up to try again. If he tells us to forgive 70 times 7, imagine how the Father forgives even more? If we can give good things to our children, the Father gives even more! The reason for the division in christianity?
> 
> [FONT=Verdana,  Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I have been misrepresented [/FONT]
> [FONT=Verdana,  Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]by those who don't know me.[/FONT]
> ...


Donnie McClurkin is the one who said "we fall down, but we get up".

Sinners and wrongdoers struggle with sin.

A true believer struggles with persecution and temptation.

No one is perfect since we all have sinned or are sinning right now. The thing is, we are called to be Holy if we are born of God and believe in Him. We are to take off the old and put on the new...not keep going back and forth to the old.

I don't know if you've seen any of my other posts, but I even question myself whether or not I'm a true Christian because of sin. I'm a relatively good person but I still sin according to the Bible. I've been taught the same things about forgiveness and repentance that God forgives 70 times 7, over and over. But if you really look at the scripture, Jesus is just telling us to forgive our brother 70 times 7. He didn't say God is the same way. God was like that in the Old Testament when people kept backsliding but the Messiah had not come yet. People had to give up sacrifices and sin offerings for their sins. God forgave them over and over. Then he came down as Jesus in the flesh to show us how to live without sin. We must confess with our mouth and believe in our heart that He is the Son of God, Lord, and Savior, and we are saved. We must repent of our sins, completely turn away and do them no more. But true repentance has been watered down over the years. So that's where some of my confusion lies as well, it has to do with me too, not just other people and what they say.


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 13, 2010)

............................


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## Poohbear (Mar 13, 2010)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Poohbear, sounds like you have your mind made up. Sometimes when you have your mind made up, nothing anyone says or do will change your mind.
> 
> Take care of yourself.
> 
> N&W


I'm not expecting or asking anyone to change my mind. Don't you realize that no one can change anyone's mind? Plus, aren't Christians suppose to let God do the changing in people's lives? And I don't even have my mind made up about anything anyway. I can express my thoughts and feelings on here just like you or anyone else.


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 13, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> I'm not expecting or asking anyone to change my mind. Don't you realize that no one can change anyone's mind? Plus, aren't Christians suppose to let God do the changing in people's lives? And I don't even have my mind made up about anything anyway. I can express my thoughts and feelings on here just like you or anyone else.


Why are you so angry with me in your post, Poohbear?  I did not disrespect you in anyway by my post.  I was reading what you wrote about how you feel that you are no longer a bible believing Christian, and so I made my post...that's all.  





> So I don't know if I can call myself a Bible-believing Christian anymore.



I will no longer make any other comments in your posts or threads, ok?

Take care.


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## Poohbear (Mar 13, 2010)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Why are you so angry with me in your post, Poohbear? I did not disrespect you in anyway by my post. I was reading what you wrote about how you feel that you are no longer a bible believing Christian, and so I made my post...that's all.
> 
> I will no longer make any other comments in your posts or threads, ok?
> 
> Take care.


Nice&Wavy, I am not angry at you... Where did you get that from? Maybe it was just the way you interpreted my tone due to my own personal frustrations with the Christian religion. I wasn't disrespecting you in my posts either. And I know what I have said...what's the point of throwing it in my face again? If you do not want to comment on my posts or threads, that's up to you. I have no problem with that. Like I said, I can express my thoughts and feelings. This is a forum and this is a country where freedom of speech is allowed. I didn't say anything disrespectful to you nor about you.


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 13, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Nice&Wavy, I am not angry at you... Where did you get that from? Maybe it was just the way you interpreted my tone due to my own personal frustrations with the Christian religion. I wasn't disrespecting you in my posts either. And I know what I have said...what's the point of throwing it in my face again? If you do not want to comment on my posts or threads, that's up to you. I have no problem with that. Like I said, I can express my thoughts and feelings. This is a forum and this is a country where freedom of speech is allowed. I didn't say anything disrespectful to you nor about you.


I never said you disrespected ME, Poohbear, I said that I did not disrespect you in my post, so I didn't understand why you seemed angry.

Your tone is really uncalled for.  No one here has come against you in any way and yet, because of your frustration with Christianity, you are seemingly on the attack.  It's really not cool.

You can say whatever you want, Poohbear, no one said you couldn't.  

The point of me quoting you again was because I felt the need too.  I wasn't "Throwing anything up in your face."

Do whatever you need to do.  Take care.


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## Poohbear (Mar 13, 2010)

How am I attacking??? The Bible does advise us not to sin but we sin anyway and give a ton of excuses to do so. That's what should be uncalled for and not cool.

And why do you feel the "need" to repeat what I said? How can ANY of us call ourselves Bible-believing Christians if we are sinning!? That's the point I was making with that statement anyway.

You shouldn't feel offended by anything I have said. I just see the Bible giving out different messages than what most Christians are teaching and preaching these days.


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 13, 2010)

Hey look, I'm done here in this thread with you.  You take care.

N&W


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## Guitarhero (Mar 14, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Donnie McClurkin is the one who said "we fall down, but we get up".
> 
> Sinners and wrongdoers struggle with sin.
> 
> ...



I believe the realities are than man sins, even christians.  About falling and getting back up, it's not McClurkin's words, it's the Father's design.  That why we are to confess our sins and move ahead.  There is a difference between willfully, habitually sinning something very serious and the myriad of ways we can sin through omission and commission, often, without realizing it.  

Although I understand your stance, I don't think it gives you the freedom you need to stand and walk the path you have chosen.  It seems like some sort of legalism that is choking the way of joy and peace.  You are tripping on the "sin" part and not gloring in the "alive" part.  I think the key is finding the balance, and this is what you are doing, finding that balance.  We all have parts where we are searching for it.  But I'm not going to believe for myself that an area that I struggle in is going to condemn me to hell because I have not found absolute and permanent freedom from it.  That is why I repent. Children do not learn to become adults the day after birth, it is a process.   The apostles lived it, the saints live it every day.


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 14, 2010)

nevermind........


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## HoneyA (Mar 14, 2010)

I don't quite know how to express my thoughts here but I'll try. In the last few weeks, I have been seeing some things in the Christian friends I have, here on this forum and even in myself that I don't like at all. Yesterday again at church, someone said something that I could not fathom. In my mind, I was like how can you say something like that? Just because you are a Christian does not give you the right to say something like that. There are things that are not sitting right with me. I can't seem to articulate them properly but I know something is off. This thread gives me that feeling again.


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## SND411 (Mar 14, 2010)

Fellow sisters, let's keep on talking. Let out all your frustrations with Christianity/Christians. Nothing should be fake/cookie-cutter. I feel this is absolutely NECESSARY. Being followers of Christ is also about being REAL and HONEST. Even being HONEST if you have doubts or are concerned. I really want this to be a forum where we can confide in each other, no matter if its considered "not Christlike." Don't worry, if we strive, we can get there.


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## sidney (Mar 14, 2010)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> Fellow sisters, let's keep on talking. Let out all your frustrations with Christianity/Christians. Nothing should be fake/cookie-cutter. I feel this is absolutely NECESSARY. Being followers of Christ is also about being REAL and HONEST. Even being HONEST if you have doubts or are concerned. I really want this to be a forum where we can confide in each other, no matter if its considered "not Christlike." Don't worry, if we strive, we can get there.


 
I think people should spend more time getting to know the character of Christ and developing strong relationships with him.  When you KNOW the person of Christ you can clearly DISCERN his will and his word as it pertains to your life.  If you are confused about the word, you should be able to go to the father.  He says "he who lacks wisdom let him ask for it."  He also says "call unto me and I will shew you great and mightly things that you know not of."  The word says that the scriptures are spiritually discerned.  If you don't like what you brethern have to say, go to the source people!


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## sidney (Mar 14, 2010)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> Fellow sisters, let's keep on talking. Let out all your frustrations with Christianity/Christians. Nothing should be fake/cookie-cutter. I feel this is absolutely NECESSARY. Being followers of Christ is also about being REAL and HONEST. Even being HONEST if you have doubts or are concerned. I really want this to be a forum where we can confide in each other, no matter if its considered "not Christlike." Don't worry, if we strive, we can get there.


 
Just wanted to say that I agree about the need for honesty and doubts.  But the bible also says in the presence of many counselors there is wisdom.  If you can't be influenced by those around you who are sharing the word in truth, why ask?


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## Laela (Mar 14, 2010)

Let me say this... I received a timely message from my pastor today about the *Blood of Jesus* and I'll share it:


Guilt is designed to keep us in the Dark. It's designed to keep us from moving in the direction away from the Will of God. That's one of Satan's best-kept secrets when it comes to Sin. He has a way of keeping Guilt smack dab in the middle of a Believer's face. The devil will remind you what you did yesterday, last night, two minutes ago... and to that we must be vigilant and Plead the Blood.  The Blood never gets old. 

If anyone knows who is born again and know their Covenant with God, they'll know the value of the Blood of Jesus. They'll not 'devalue' it by sinning and acting like a child of the Dark, but a child of the Light. But most important, they won't let the sin of guilt hang around their necks!

THE BLOOD OF JESUS won't keep us 'sin conscious' but 'Righteousness conscious"

Whatever we focus on will expand.. 

Jesus shed his Blood once but it's continually washing/cleansing us. Don't be fooled! We'll be righteousness conscious but won't be in bondage to sin by guilt.

*Hebrews 9:14*
"How much more shall the *blood of Christ*, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the Living God?"

Reading God's Word is really not enough, we have to Believe it. All the answers we need, to quell confusion, to seek advice, to soothe our heart, is in God's Word. Until we read the Word for ourselves and understand it for ourselves, nothing anyone says will make sense. 

You know your Covenant, you'll know you have Blood-Bought Right to Plead the Blood of Jesus - everytime, without guilt, shame or condemnation --because you are a Child of the Most High God.  I am a Child of the Most High God and I'm not even trying to hear what that old Ugly, green, mushed-faced one-eyed, crooked-eye, one-leg Devil have to say today.  

The Blood of Jesus!
The Blood of Jesus!
The Blood of Jesus!


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## Poohbear (Mar 14, 2010)

sidney said:


> I think people should spend more time getting to know the character of Christ and developing strong relationships with him. When you KNOW the person of Christ you can clearly DISCERN his will and his word as it pertains to your life. If you are confused about the word, you should be able to go to the father. He says "he who lacks wisdom let him ask for it." He also says "call unto me and I will shew you great and mightly things that you know not of." The word says that the scriptures are spiritually discerned. If you don't like what you brethern have to say, go to the source people!


sidney, take a look and re-read what you just posted and think about it. Does it really make any sense? I'm tired of the rationalizations and excuses make for people who have valid questions about God and the Bible and Christianity. "Seek wisdom"... "Call on the Lord" ... "Get to know Jesus"... "Go to the Word of God" ..."Satan is the author of confusion".... I know all the lines!!! I'm sick of them!  Wake up and open your eyes and realize what you're saying before saying it. I used to say these very same things in order to help a "confused soul".  It's easier said than done. Telling people to develop a relationship with Christ, who is not physically present but is supposedly spiritually present, doesn't really help at all.  I have read my Bible. I have prayed to God. I have developed this so-called relationship with Jesus who isn't physically present. And I'm just not feeling it anymore! Not for just one particular reason, but for several. It mainly has to do with nothing making sense and reading and hearing so much contradiction, even when I study the Bible for myself. We try to rationalize and make excuses for things that happen. All in the name of Jesus. All because of faith in the unseen. Are we really fearful of not believing in the Bible? fearful of not believing in Jesus or God?  So we make up things make us feel better and try to make others feel better?  I know I just rambled alot here but if you really think critically and intelligently about everything that the Bible says, you will see what I'm talking about. But you don't even have to do that. Just look at the division among Christianity as a whole. It's ridiculous. We have baptists (even divisions among baptists), presbyterians, methodists, jehovah witness, pentecostal, CME, AME, apostolic, Church of God, and so on.


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## Poohbear (Mar 14, 2010)

Laela said:


> Let me say this... I received a timely message from my pastor today about the *Blood of Jesus* and I'll share it:
> 
> 
> Guilt is designed to keep us in the Dark. It's designed to keep us from moving in the direction away from the Will of God. That's one of Satan's best-kept secrets when it comes to Sin. He has a way of keeping Guilt smack dab in the middle of a Believer's face. The devil will remind you what you did yesterday, last night, two minutes ago... and to that we must be vigilant and Plead the Blood. The Blood never gets old.
> ...


Forget what anyone else says... what if you feel like the word of God doesn't make sense?  

And what about the blood of Jesus? People throw around phrases all the time not knowing what they really mean.

I have been that strong Christian who would support the Bible up and down.  I've been that Christian who had that great understanding of God's word. I had this great faith.

To be honest, nothing makes sense anymore. You can say I need to focus on the blood of Jesus all you want, but that's not gonna help. The blood of Jesus doesn't exist.  The blood of Jesus was supposedly shed from his body when he died on the cross.

And how can one be righteousness conscious instead of sin conscious?  Especially when we are told that almost everything is a sin?  (Please don't answer these questions, they're just rhetorical. I know the Christian answer is JESUS). And then we are told we are righteous for believing in Jesus but we can sin and Jesus forgives us. That just can't be right.


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## Guitarhero (Mar 14, 2010)

Some questions can only be directly answered by God and in private.  I encourage private reflection, calm and openness to the Holy Spirit.


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## Poohbear (Mar 14, 2010)

..........................................................


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## Poohbear (Mar 14, 2010)

CreoleNat said:


> Some questions can only be directly answered by God and in private. I encourage private reflection, calm and openness to the Holy Spirit.


Well God is not answering my questions nor is he soothing my confusion.


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## PinkPebbles (Mar 14, 2010)

..........


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 14, 2010)

sidney said:


> I think people should spend more time getting to know the character of Christ and developing strong relationships with him.  When you KNOW the person of Christ you can clearly DISCERN his will and his word as it pertains to your life.  If you are confused about the word, you should be able to go to the father.  He says "he who lacks wisdom let him ask for it."  He also says "call unto me and I will shew you great and mightly things that you know not of."  The word says that the scriptures are spiritually discerned.  If you don't like what you brethern have to say, go to the source people!


Sidney, what a great word you have spoken here.

I'm glad you are here in the CF!


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 14, 2010)

sidney said:


> Just wanted to say that I agree about the need for honesty and doubts.  But the bible also says in the presence of many counselors there is wisdom.  If you can't be influenced by those around you who are sharing the word in truth, why ask?


 I appreciate this word!


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## Laela (Mar 14, 2010)

It is clear from your threads/posts that the bolded is highly unlikely. Why do I say that? 

*Hebrews 6:*

_*4*For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, _
_*5*And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, *6*If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame._

I've come to realize that people who leave a church or stop being followers of Christ or turn their backs on God failed to exercise their FAITH. The principles God gave them in the Bible "didn't work" so they get mad, confused, disgusted with Christians, etc. They harden their hearts, like the Israelites did in the Wilderness. They blame everyone but themselves for feeling the way they do. I'm more inclined to believe this "confusion" you claim is an 'excuse' And I say this with Agape Love. You can get mad at me all you want, but I think you need to hear this.

I'll tell you what excuses are, they are a way of paving the way to do what we set our minds to do anyway, so there is no guilt. It's clear your mind has been made up and you're setting the stage, since the day you left your parents' church. Take away those excuses, you'll have nothing to fall back on but God -- and the Freedom you're so desperately seeking and I know you know that.

I was in a state of "confusion" before, knowing whom God is but running away from Him. I chose to live in in a den of demons, led by a frustrated Atheist. I falsely believed Atheisism was a freedom. I could do what I want, I was free. Yeah, right. All I got was heartache, trouble, people out to kill me, shame and disgust. This Atheist knew the Bible, too. He knew about all the Christian catch-phrases, too. So, I've heard all your rhetoric before and they don't move me one bit. Been there. Done that.

Of course those "Christian phrases" MEAN NOTHING to those who don't believe. But if you had been the strong Christian you say you were, you will be able identify with this and not spew it as nonesense. God's Word will never return to Him void. 

I *know* what the blood of Jesus means. I don't say that to assuage any insecurities, but but to testify to the goodness of God.  It was the Blood that saved me from getting murdered by someone who plotted to take my life. It saved me from a heart condition that I no longer have. It saved me from thieves, liars and cheats. I don't post willy nilly on this Forum to things I don't know to be true in Real Life. No faker here.

If you choose to discard God, that is your choice, but because you don't "feel" it anymore, doesn't mean He no longer exists or His Word isn't Truth. God will still move. He will still Save. And as the battle intensifies for more souls for the Kingdom, He will prevail. It is Written.


At the end of the day, it's your soul and you are held accountable for it, for the words that come out of your mouth. For the curse you speak on your own life. No matter where you go, who you choose to hang out with, what you choose to do, God WILL STILL BE THERE, right there with you. 

He's married to your soul and He'll be right there when you return.

Yes, he'll keep the Light on for you, too, and He'll embrace you like the Father embraced his prodigal son. 

Like N&W deftly said, it's your choice. I challenge you to go back and read all your own posts, you'll see you've been going in circles for quite a while, asking the same questions different ways. And My soul sincerely hurts for you, because you are a bright, intelligent and likeable young woman. 

I will seriously keep you in my prayers because I know that God won't give up on you! 



Poohbear said:


> Forget what anyone else says... what if you feel like the word of God doesn't make sense?
> 
> And what about the blood of Jesus? People throw around phrases all the time not knowing what they really mean.
> 
> ...


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## discobiscuits (Mar 14, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_xix04dxjI



i like that video. very clear & concice. reminded me of some things.


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 14, 2010)

Praise the Lord, Laela...Praise the Name of the Lord, Jesus!


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## SND411 (Mar 14, 2010)

Laela said:


> It is clear from your threads/posts that the bolded is highly unlikely. Why do I say that?
> 
> *Hebrews 6:*
> 
> ...



I KNOW there is God's presence in this post.


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## SND411 (Mar 14, 2010)

Sometimes if your mind is already made up, there is NO WAY any human can convince you to believe otherwise for your pride is on the line. I've dealt with this within myself and I fully believe that it can only take an act of GOD to heal a frozen heart.


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## aribell (Mar 14, 2010)

Laela said:


> It is clear from your threads/posts that the bolded is highly unlikely. Why do I say that?
> 
> *Hebrews 6:*
> 
> ...



Laela, you are sooo right with this, so right.  Poohbear, I too, felt "confused," and you know what, just as it is written above, it was ultimately an "out" for me in walking the Christian life. It is so much easier to give up and say it just must not make any sense, it must be impossible to follow, because then there is no striving against sin.  If the bible is just a jumbled mess, then I don't have to continue trying to live for God, right?  I can go about my business without having to worry about all this sin and guilt stuff.  Having faith is hard, but _believing_ and _trusting_ that what God said is unquestionably true is the only way to gain peace.

I've been there, so there's no judgment here, but consider this.  You are speaking of the importance of righteousness and refraining from sin.  But if you embrace agnosticism and let go of your faith, will you continue to follow God's commands?   Or will you gradually embrace that which you have already identified as wrong?  I don't mean to be sensational in any way, but this is how spiritual warfare works.  We tell ourselves that we are legitimately upset for a good reason (zeal for righteousness), but end up going in the completely opposite direction.  How is it that you can be upset that Christians aren't following the Word the way you feel they should while at the same time considering abandoning that Word yourself? 

You have reason to be frustrated when you see "believers" practicing sin.  Your heart and spirit are resonating with the Lord's in His indignation against unrighteousness.  Allow that frustration to draw you closer to Him.  He is no less the Truth because humans get it wrong.  And we have to remember not to judge anything or anyone before the time. 

Only God knows someone's heart.  I might stand up all day and night claiming to be a Christian, but I may not be in the least.  God knows.  Jesus Himself told us that there will be many people at the last day saying "Lord Lord, didn't we do such and such in your name," and He will tell them that they were never His.  It's futile to look at the lives of those around you to judge who's genuinely a believer and who's not, who's close to God and who's not.  We don't have the capacity to see truthfully.  At the judgment day, each one of us will stand before Him and give an account of how _we_ responded to His word.  It's not going to matter that everyone around us was a hypocrite.  We will still be accountable for how we walked before Him.

Jesus said that the way to find Him is narrow and that *few* find it.  We can't be surprised if most people are getting it wrong.  This is a hard walk.  But He makes it possible for us to persevere.

Also, I'm not sure what type of spiritual environment you are in, but I am not around believers who practice sin.  The couple that I live with does not practice sin, neither does my pastor, nor my Christian friends.  Some spiritual environments are caustic and can cause people to become discouraged in their faith.  If that is the case here, please pray to find believers who are genuinely walking the walk.


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## discobiscuits (Mar 14, 2010)

Laela, this is an amazing post & it has convicted me. thank you for this. i need it.    i hope it helps you too pooh...

one thing though. this passage reads as if it is impossible to come back to repentance if you leave which would mean you can't go back.




> it is impossible...to renew them again unto repentance if they shall fall away[/






Laela said:


> It is clear from your threads/posts that the bolded is highly unlikely. Why do I say that?
> 
> *Hebrews 6:*
> 
> ...


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## nathansgirl1908 (Mar 14, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> I actually found the thread to be quite interesting and enlightening.
> 
> I myself am struggling with the whole idea of what it means to be a Christian.  I feel like I'm becoming Agnostic due to all the division among Christianity, corruption, and hypocrisy.  If Jesus is the one true way, then why are so many "Christians" abusing God's grace with their sins, and at the same time, looking down on others who sin or don't believe in God or Jesus?  Aren't you as a Christian acting like someone who doesn't believe in God when you sin all day everyday and make an excuse that you can't stop because of your sinful fleshly nature from Adam?



Part of your struggle may be that you are too focused on what others are doing.  I say this because the statements you made above are statements I hear from many people who are struggling with their belief or just outright don't believe.  At the end of the day, if you desire to walk with God, your focus is supposed to be on Him and not the actions of others.  Just because others are "abusing God's grace" as you put it, doesn't mean Jesus ISN'T the one true way.   

Also, I want to point out that the truth is that we ARE all going to sin.  The problem comes when we do the SAME thing over and over without repenting.  But again, if you see someone doing that, it isn't your cross to bear.  Especially if it causes YOU to be strained in your own relationship with God.

I look at it like this.  If a woman is married, but she sees people around her cheating and doing horrible things to their husbands, will she decide that maybe she shouldn't be married any longer and leave her husband because of how OTHERS are behaving?


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## Guitarhero (Mar 14, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Well God is not answering my questions nor is he soothing my confusion.




Dear one, give Him time.  I know where you are even though I know I'm not you.  There is a time of conflict and you will get through it to be able to move on in your life in a positive direction.  But what good is asking people for directions on your path if you reject the map?  I feel the very trouble you are feeling and it so touches me because I've been there - mind you, a different situation, but it was gut-wrenching. I had no rest, day or night.  That's why I ask you to meditate, to restore calm in order to be able to reflect and even intellectualize through this situation. The very answer you seek might just be right in front of you but with the lack of peace and calm, the waves are obscuring it. 

You will find where you belong, I am certain of it.   But never strive to be another.  You are unique and your answer will come designed just right for you.  He is the author of intellect and He's got your philosophical answer just the way you need it.    Think of that rose.  It blooms after it is seeded and that takes time. Without patience, it will not bloom.  With stress, it will not bloom.  But when there is calm and meditation, it blooms magnificently.


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## Guitarhero (Mar 14, 2010)

I forgot to add, in services today, the story was of the prodigal son.  Jesus is on one shoulder and the satan on the other.  One says to  do the right thing because the action will break off the relationship and the other says to do it, it will be fun.  If the bad way is chosen, the Holy One says to come back home to restore the relationship whereas the evil one  lays the blame, tempting you to believe that you are not worthy of forgiveness. This is the relationship of the Father with His children who sin.  He is always welcoming.


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## nathansgirl1908 (Mar 14, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> I'm tired of the rationalizations and excuses make for people who have valid questions about God and the Bible and Christianity. "



I'm equally tired of the excuses and rationalizations people make for not believing.  

While I think from time to time most people will have low periods in their walk, I don't agree when it appears that they aim to make others doubt or question their walk.  Poohbear, I am sorry that you are struggling in this way.  However, as I read your posts in this thread, whether you agree with me or not, it seems that your posts are designed to make others question their own walks and beliefs.  It really is true that misery loves company.  

Many of the questions and issues you pose can be answered and addressed with a careful reading and study of the Word, as well as prayer and internal reflection.   

if you choose to walk away from Him, then that is your choice.  However I personally find it offensive that essentially you are condemning all Christians simply because they sin.  In that sense you are being as judgmental and unforgiving as the very Christians you complain about.


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## plainj (Mar 14, 2010)

Laela said:


> It is clear from your threads/posts that the bolded is highly unlikely. Why do I say that?
> 
> *Hebrews 6:*
> 
> ...


I know this post was a word for me too. It spoke to me. It got me thinking. Thank you.


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## sidney (Mar 14, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> sidney, take a look and re-read what you just posted and think about it. Does it really make any sense? I'm tired of the rationalizations and excuses make for people who have valid questions about God and the Bible and Christianity.* "Seek wisdom"... "Call on the Lord" ... "Get to know Jesus"... "Go to the Word of God" ..."Satan is the author of confusion".... I know all the lines!!!* I'm sick of them! Wake up and open your eyes and realize what you're saying before saying it. I used to say these very same things in order to help a "confused soul". It's easier said than done. Telling people to develop a relationship with Christ, who is not physically present but is supposedly spiritually present, doesn't really help at all. I have read my Bible. I have prayed to God. I have developed this so-called relationship with Jesus who isn't physically present. And I'm just not feeling it anymore! Not for just one particular reason, but for several. It mainly has to do with nothing making sense and reading and hearing so much contradiction, even when I study the Bible for myself. We try to rationalize and make excuses for things that happen. All in the name of Jesus. All because of faith in the unseen. Are we really fearful of not believing in the Bible? fearful of not believing in Jesus or God? So we make up things make us feel better and try to make others feel better? I know I just rambled alot here but if you really think critically and intelligently about everything that the Bible says, you will see what I'm talking about. But you don't even have to do that. Just look at the division among Christianity as a whole. It's ridiculous. We have baptists (even divisions among baptists), presbyterians, methodists, jehovah witness, pentecostal, CME, AME, apostolic, Church of God, and so on.


 
Okay Poohbear, I think I understand where you are coming from.  Please know that I am not trying to give you a line, but I'm only sharing what is a reality in my life.  When I need to understand, God reveals it to me.  I spent my early years as a christian without truly encountering God.  I don't know when and how it happens, but there is an active relationship that happens and there is no doubt that it's God.  Poohbear I really don't mean to offend you by saying this, if it does please forgive me, but based on what you have shared I'm not sure you've had a true encounter with God.  Because those who have experienced him know him and the truth is on their hearts and they walk accordingly.  It's not about saying a prayer or going to church or just reading the bible, but there is a transforming power, and revelation of the truth.  And you just 'know.'  I pray that you do not give up, but fight the good fight of faith.  I have been where you are and too doubted, but God showed himself to be true and manifested himself in my life.  He became so real and now I know without a shadow of a doubt.  If you need me, my pm box is here.   But this is all I can contribute to this thread.  Be blessed!


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## sidney (Mar 14, 2010)

Laela said:


> It is clear from your threads/posts that the bolded is highly unlikely. Why do I say that?
> 
> *Hebrews 6:*
> 
> ...


 
Powerful Testimony!!!  Thank you so much for sharing these words!


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## Poohbear (Mar 15, 2010)

Laela said:


> It is clear from your threads/posts that the bolded is highly unlikely. Why do I say that?
> 
> *Hebrews 6:*
> 
> ...


 
No, there's no reason to get mad here. Sounds like y'all may be getting y'all panties in a wad, but I'm straight...

And if you read what I said... I used past tense: *I have been that strong Christian who would support the Bible up and down. I've been that Christian who had that great understanding of God's word. I had this great faith.*

For me, it's not about doing what I want... It's about doing what is RIGHT! I want to do right, be good, and live a wonderful loving life.  We shouldn't be scared into living right. We shouldn't be forced to live right or live by man's rules when we may already have a good sense of right and wrong already in our hearts and minds. 

We do all this talk over here in the Christian thread about what God wants, what God hates, discussion of different sins, whether something is right or wrong in God's eyes, but we don't look at ourselves as individuals and what we are doing. Y'all will question someone's salvation about a particular sin, but fail to look at yourself. It's like your sin is okay while other people's sins are not okay.

I've exercised my faith, but what's the point of exercising your faith when you are told "we can't stop sinning" or "all Christians sin" or "we have forgiveness of sins over and over".  Y'all keep ignoring that!!!  Y'all won't address that issue like 1star has done. 1star actually understands where I'm coming from.

And you say that the blood of Jesus saved you from all these bad things... did you know these same things have happened to people who do not believe in Jesus? Being saved from murder, liars, and cheaters? That happens to non-believers too. People always attach good things happening to them to Jesus without thinking of the possibility that it could be coincidental.  Good things like that happen to non-believers as well. But when something bad happens, it's that good old Satan! Come on now. What sense does that really make if your really really think about it? Good and bad things happen to believers and non-believers.

And I don't have to go back and read what I have said. I KNOW what I have said and asked. I know I may have been going in circles about this but y'all are failing to see what I see. Y'all are getting on the defense for no reason. Maybe out of fear, I'm not sure. But no one has been successful in answering my questions except for maybe 1star. Y'all ignore the fact that the Bible says to live and be holy, go and sin no more...yet, y'all say "it's ok, we have forgiveness with the blood of Jesus! We can't stop sinning." But do all this bad talk about sinful Christians when you're a sinful Christian too.


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## Poohbear (Mar 15, 2010)

nicola.kirwan said:


> Laela, you are sooo right with this, so right. Poohbear, I too, felt "confused," and you know what, just as it is written above, it was ultimately an "out" for me in walking the Christian life. It is so much easier to give up and say it just must not make any sense, it must be impossible to follow, because then there is no striving against sin. If the bible is just a jumbled mess, then I don't have to continue trying to live for God, right? I can go about my business without having to worry about all this sin and guilt stuff. Having faith is hard, but _believing_ and _trusting_ that what God said is unquestionably true is the only way to gain peace.
> 
> I've been there, so there's no judgment here, but consider this. You are speaking of the importance of righteousness and refraining from sin. But if you embrace agnosticism and let go of your faith, will you continue to follow God's commands? Or will you gradually embrace that which you have already identified as wrong? I don't mean to be sensational in any way, but this is how spiritual warfare works. We tell ourselves that we are legitimately upset for a good reason (zeal for righteousness), but end up going in the completely opposite direction. How is it that you can be upset that Christians aren't following the Word the way you feel they should while at the same time considering abandoning that Word yourself?
> 
> ...


Nice post.

To answer your question, I'm not looking for an "out" from walking the "Christian" life.  To me, the Christian life is about living holy, righteous, resisting temptation to do wrong, not falling into sin every now and then. I'm not looking to live this wild, rebellious life at all like some of you are thinking. I'm looking to live a good life without wrongdoing.  It is miserable to live like everything is a sin and you can't stop sinning and when you repent you go back and do the same sin. Then you have to pray to this higher power, God who is the Father, the Son, and Holy Ghost, who you have to have faith is there listening to you and speaking to you, but there's no actual physical presence or sound. That's not true repentance when you pray for forgiveness and go back to that sin.  That's not a true Christian to sin and just expect God to forgive you everytime for the same sin or different sins. I have yet to find anything in the bible that says "God forgives you of past, present, and future sins." How is that? I can see forgiving you of past sins. But if he forgives you of present and future sins, what's the point of even confessing? "Because it shows you have faith". No, that's ridiculous too. We can't ignore God's call to obedience.

And you are so right about the way of life being narrow and how many do not follow it. Many are following this wide gate.

That's good to hear that you are not around people who do not practice sin. I just hate to hear people claim to be Christians and say it's okay to sin. Even though they may not straight out say it's okay to sin, their actions show differently.

Your post really gave me something to think about for real. I will continue to do my searching, but at the same time, I also want to find a way to intellectually and logically reason with what I should and should not believe.


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## Poohbear (Mar 15, 2010)

AfriPrincess411 said:


> Sometimes if your mind is already made up, there is NO WAY any human can convince you to believe otherwise for your pride is on the line. I've dealt with this within myself and I fully believe that it can only take an act of GOD to heal a frozen heart.


My mind is not made up and my heart is not frozen. And I could care less about my pride. That's what alot of self-proclaimed Christians like to do when they see someone questioning their faith.  "You're not right with God"... "You're looking for an excuse not to follow Jesus" ... "You're hardening your heart like Pharoah"... WHATEVER! Get out of here with that mess.


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## Poohbear (Mar 15, 2010)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> Part of your struggle may be that you are too focused on what others are doing. I say this because the statements you made above are statements I hear from many people who are struggling with their belief or just outright don't believe. At the end of the day, if you desire to walk with God, your focus is supposed to be on Him and not the actions of others. Just because others are "abusing God's grace" as you put it, doesn't mean Jesus ISN'T the one true way.
> 
> Also, *I want to point out that the truth is that we ARE all going to sin.* The problem comes when we do the SAME thing over and over without repenting. But again, if you see someone doing that, it isn't your cross to bear. Especially if it causes YOU to be strained in your own relationship with God.
> 
> I look at it like this. If a woman is married, but she sees people around her cheating and doing horrible things to their husbands, will she decide that maybe she shouldn't be married any longer and leave her husband because of how OTHERS are behaving?


I was almost with you on this post until you said the bolded... why is this the truth?  Please don't point me to the verses that say "our righteousness is but filthy rags" or "no one is righteous, no not one" and so forth. If the Bible is the true Word of God, he calls believers to be HOLY and to put on the NEW nature and to get rid of the old nature...not keep going back to it.  He doesn't say "Y'all are gonna keep on sinning so keep praying to me so I can forgive you." Repentance should be a one time thing of all sins. When you trust and believe in Jesus, you don't go back to your fleshly wicked ways.  Jesus says to "Go and sin no more." He did not say "it's ok if you slip up and sin again. I'll just forgive and forget."  You can't be truly saved by sinning.

Just think. You can't swim and you decided to hop in a lake, and you are about to drown. Someone comes and rescues you into a boat. You are saved from drowning. Then a few days later, you decide to hop back in the lake knowing you can't swim. You are no longer saved, you are about to drown again.

Same with Jesus. If y'all read Matthew or Luke, the angel told Mary that she would give birth to a son Jesus who will save God's people FROM their sin... not IN their sin or WHILE they are sinning. That means right when you accept Jesus, you are to repent and turn from your wicked ways. That's how I see the Gospel.

And about you're example about the married woman. I say No, she shouldn't leave her husband because of what others are doing. You're failing to see everything that I have a problem with. I'm not wanting to leave Christianity just because of what others are doing. There are some things with Christianity that do not logically, intellectually, or reasonably make sense to me.


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## Poohbear (Mar 15, 2010)

CreoleNat said:


> Dear one, give Him time. I know where you are even though I know I'm not you. There is a time of conflict and you will get through it to be able to move on in your life in a positive direction. But what good is asking people for directions on your path if you reject the map? I feel the very trouble you are feeling and it so touches me because I've been there - mind you, a different situation, but it was gut-wrenching. I had no rest, day or night. That's why I ask you to meditate, to restore calm in order to be able to reflect and even intellectualize through this situation. The very answer you seek might just be right in front of you but with the lack of peace and calm, the waves are obscuring it.
> 
> You will find where you belong, I am certain of it.  But never strive to be another. You are unique and your answer will come designed just right for you. He is the author of intellect and He's got your philosophical answer just the way you need it.  Think of that rose. It blooms after it is seeded and that takes time. Without patience, it will not bloom. With stress, it will not bloom. But when there is calm and meditation, it blooms magnificently.


Thank you.


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## Poohbear (Mar 15, 2010)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> I'm equally tired of the excuses and rationalizations people make for not believing.
> 
> While I think from time to time most people will have low periods in their walk, I don't agree when it appears that they aim to make others doubt or question their walk. Poohbear, I am sorry that you are struggling in this way. However, as I read your posts in this thread, whether you agree with me or not, *it seems that your posts are designed to make others question their own walks and beliefs.* It really is true that misery loves company.


I agree. I am wanting others to question their walks and beliefs. I see nothing wrong with that. We are all thinking living human beings here.



> Many of the questions and issues you pose can be answered and addressed with a careful reading and study of the Word, as well as prayer and internal reflection.
> 
> if you choose to walk away from Him, then that is your choice. *However I personally find it offensive that essentially you are condemning all Christians simply because they sin. In that sense you are being as judgmental and unforgiving as the very Christians you complain about.*


About the bolded...I'm including myself when I'm "condemning all Christians." So I'm being judgemental and unforgiving about myself as well. Don't take it as something necessarily bad or offensive. If you feel guilty, just repent. Right? But anyway, I just want people to really think about it with their own minds. That's why I question this religion as a whole. It's scary but we can't just keep living blindly by stuff that doesn't make sense. Like in a earlier post, I said how can anyone, myself included, claim to be a Bible-believing Christian if they are sinning? The wages of sin is death. The Bible lists several types of sinners that shall not enter the kingdom of God. How can we ignore this by just looking at God's grace, forgiveness, and mercy? God's grace, forgiveness, and mercy is a one time thing. God forgives you of your PAST sins. Once you are forgiven, you don't go back to doing that sin or any sin.  Just like if someone is forgiven of a lot of debt from filing bankruptcy, if you go back into debt, you are no longer forgiven, you're back in debt!!!


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## nathansgirl1908 (Mar 15, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> I agree. I am wanting others to question their walks and beliefs. I see nothing wrong with that. We are all thinking living human beings here.
> 
> 
> About the bolded...I'm including myself when I'm "condemning all Christians." So I'm being judgemental and unforgiving about myself as well. Don't take it as something necessarily bad or offensive. If you feel guilty, just repent. Right? But anyway, I just want people to really think about it with their own minds. That's why I question this religion as a whole. It's scary but we can't just keep living blindly by stuff that doesn't make sense. Like in a earlier post, I said how can anyone, myself included, claim to be a Bible-believing Christian if they are sinning? The wages of sin is death. The Bible lists several types of sinners that shall not enter the kingdom of God. How can we ignore this by just looking at God's grace, forgiveness, and mercy? God's grace, forgiveness, and mercy is a one time thing. God forgives you of your PAST sins. Once you are forgiven, you don't go back to doing that sin or any sin. Just like if someone is forgiven of a lot of debt from filing bankruptcy, if you go back into debt, you are no longer forgiven, you're back in debt!!!


 The thing is that it is not your place to make others question their walks and their beliefs.  That is something that is deeply personal.
And I'm not saying this in an angry way, but typically when I see people saying the things you are saying to others, I have found it to be a work of the enemy to make people feel guilt.  If we feel guilt, we begin to unnecessarily condemn ourselves and start to experience rifts in our relationships with God.  That's not of Him.  He wants us to examine ourselves, but because we can't be perfect, we are to accept that and do our very best.  What you fail to realize is that in some way, shape, or form, we DO sin every day even if we don't INTEND to.  And when we repent of one sin, we repent of THAT sin.  Not EVERY single sin known to man.    What you are saying is unrealistic.  It isn't an excuse.  It just isn't reality.  

Those people who remain in sin will be cast into the lake of fire. The Word clearly says that.  But the point is that those are people who have chosen not to receive Him and who have failed to repent.  


You are experiencing a confusion that is designed to keep you in bondage.  It is your choice whether to remain there or work your way out of it.  Right now you appear to wish to remain because you are rejecting every argument.  When that is the case, believers should just step away so as not to be affected by what you are experiencing.  Harsh? Maybe.  But it is the truth.  That's why after this post, I don't plan to respond anymore.  it is pointless.  And I don't mean that in an antagonistic way.  I'm simply saying that you aren't going to resolve these issues until you open your heart and mind.


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## Poohbear (Mar 15, 2010)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> The thing is that it is not your place to make others question their walks and their beliefs. That is something that is deeply personal.
> And I'm not saying this in an angry way, but typically when I see people saying the things you are saying to others, I have found it to be a work of the enemy to make people feel guilt. If we feel guilt, we begin to unnecessarily condemn ourselves and start to experience rifts in our relationships with God. That's not of Him. He wants us to examine ourselves, but because we can't be perfect, we are to accept that and do our very best. *What you fail to realize is that in some way, shape, or form, we DO sin every day even if we don't INTEND to. And when we repent of one sin, we repent of THAT sin. Not EVERY single sin known to man. What you are saying is unrealistic. It isn't an excuse. It just isn't reality. *
> 
> *Those people who remain in sin will be cast into the lake of fire. The Word clearly says that. But the point is that those are people who have chosen not to receive Him and who have failed to repent. *
> ...


You just contradicted yourself. So I guess EVERYONE is going to be cast into the lake of fire since everyone is remaining in their sin.

Sinning EVERY DAY is REMAINING IN SIN! There's no way to rationalize that!

And what you have said was not harsh. It's fine if you do not respond anymore as long as you mean it. I'm just venting. Everyone can choose to do what they want. That's fine. No burden on me.

I have opened my heart and mind... that's why I'm having these issues about what and what not to believe...


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## SND411 (Mar 15, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> My mind is not made up and my heart is not frozen. And I could care less about my pride. That's what alot of self-proclaimed Christians like to do when they see someone questioning their faith.  "You're not right with God"... "You're looking for an excuse not to follow Jesus" ... "You're hardening your heart like Pharoah"... WHATEVER! Get out of here with that mess.



Sorry, I didn't mean that since you are "questioning" your heart is hardened. I basically meant that sometimes we ask questions that we truly don't want to find the answers to. More like just asking questions to prove our stance. Not saying this is particularly what you are doing.


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## Prudent1 (Mar 15, 2010)

I have nothing to add to the wonderful scriptures that have been shared by all. I will say that a message series I heard recently addressed _*unanswered questions *_in the Christian faith. If you would like to check it out. Perhaps it will shed some light. If you get nothing from it no harm done. The series is called _It's Personal_- by Andy Stanley. If you google it there are pdf and free downloads for iTunes etc.
Here is a brief description of the series:
*This powerful series is directed to men and women who desire a personal connection with God, but who have genuine questions, doubts, and concerns. In his creative and casual style, Andy Stanley makes a case for the fact that adults don’t become followers of Christ by getting all their questions answered. In most instances, something happens that shrinks those questions. And that something is always personal. You don't have to understand everything to believe in something. A 4-part series by Andy Stanley*.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sODlrzfnD24
http://resources.northpoint.org/store/shop.do?pID=1593


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## Poohbear (Mar 15, 2010)

Prudent1 said:


> I have nothing to add to the wonderful scriptures that have been shared by all. I will say that a message series I heard recently addressed _*unanswered questions *_in the Christian faith. If you would like to check it out. Perhaps it will shed some light. If you get nothing from it no harm done. The series is called _It's Personal_- by Andy Stanley. If you google it there are pdf and free downloads for iTunes etc.
> Here is a brief description of the series:
> *This powerful series is directed to men and women who desire a personal connection with God, but who have genuine questions, doubts, and concerns. In his creative and casual style, Andy Stanley makes a case for the fact that adults don’t become followers of Christ by getting all their questions answered. In most instances, something happens that shrinks those questions. And that something is always personal. You don't have to understand everything to believe in something. A 4-part series by Andy Stanley*.
> 
> ...


Prudent1,

Thanks for posting that youtube.com link! I just listened to the first part of his speech. He is really speaking of what I've been trying to talk about too. I'm going to listen to the rest of his 4-part series as well.


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## aribell (Mar 15, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Nice post.
> 
> To answer your question, I'm not looking for an "out" from walking the "Christian" life.  To me, the Christian life is about living holy, righteous, resisting temptation to do wrong, not falling into sin every now and then. I'm not looking to live this wild, rebellious life at all like some of you are thinking. I'm looking to live a good life without wrongdoing.  It is miserable to live like everything is a sin and you can't stop sinning and when you repent you go back and do the same sin. Then you have to pray to this higher power, God who is the Father, the Son, and Holy Ghost, who you have to have faith is there listening to you and speaking to you, but there's no actual physical presence or sound. That's not true repentance when you pray for forgiveness and go back to that sin.  That's not a true Christian to sin and just expect God to forgive you everytime for the same sin or different sins.* I have yet to find anything in the bible that says "God forgives you of past, present, and future sins." How is that? I can see forgiving you of past sins. But if he forgives you of present and future sins, what's the point of even confessing? "Because it shows you have faith". No, that's ridiculous too. We can't ignore God's call to obedience.*



Per the bolded, doesn't the Bible say that "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us"?  The Father allowed Jesus to be crucified for our sins before anyone even had a chance to accept or to reject Him.  Jesus reached out on the Cross saying, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" while they had just tortured Him and were mocking Him.  That's amazing isn't it, that in the midst of being tormented by His creation, He offered forgiveness.

God doesn't change.  He is always offering us forgiveness.  And yet we can choose to alienate ourselves from His love by rejecting Him.  Regardless of what anyone claims about God's forgiveness, His word clearly says that those who practice unrighteousness will not inherit the Kingdom of God.  In fact, Paul says, "Do not be deceived, for God is not mocked.  Whatever a man sows, that He will reap."  That is what we do if we claim that God will just look the other way at our sin--mocking God, and He does not accept that.  If we think that He does, we are deceiving ourselves.

Someone who actively chooses to continually sin does *not* have faith, no matter what they say.  As Jesus said, there is one test alone for determining whether someone knows and loves God, and that is whether they obey His commandments.  

But also, I have to say that we can't try and set up a higher standard for ourselves than the Bible itself gives us.  The Bible doesn't teach that once we become a believer that we will never sin again, which means that it's very possible to fall and have to get back up again.  This is because many times, we have to _learn _something more about ourselves and what is leading us into that sin, and that's not an instant occurence.  A lot of the time, people keep repenting and falling because they aren't really stopping to reflect on what led them to sin in the first place and just say "Sorry God" and expect their actions to be suddenly different.  But it takes more prayer, insight and reflection than just saying "Oops, my bad." 

I think that you're right in saying that true repentance is not something you can just go back on, but a lot of people have not gotten to the place where they understand what true repentance is all about.  Or, they "confess" their sin, seeking forgiveness because they want to avoid any bad consequences, but aren't really interested in being changed and don't understand why they were wrong.  And so they keep confessing, but aren't repenting.  But it's repentance that brings grace to make a permanent change.  Still, this is all a process, and a lot of times God is more patient and merciful with our sin and the _process _of our sanctification than we are with ourselves and one another.


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## Poohbear (Mar 15, 2010)

nicola.kirwan said:


> Per the bolded, doesn't the Bible say that "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us"? The Father allowed Jesus to be crucified for our sins before anyone even had a chance to accept or to reject Him. Jesus reached out on the Cross saying, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" while they had just tortured Him and were mocking Him. That's amazing isn't it, that in the midst of being tormented by His creation, He offered forgiveness.


Those scriptures do not say Jesus forgives us of future sins. "While we were yet sinners Christ died for us" means that Jesus died for us before *were *sinners. Later on in Romans 5, it talks about "being reconciled" to God and being saved by his life. When you reconcile with someone, you are back in good standing with love. Let's say a spouse cheats on you, and you decide to reconcile with that spouse out of love. You are expecting that spouse not to cheat on you again, or else, you wouldn't have reconciled with your spouse. You would have cut him off. God expects us to love Him by keeping His commandments and loving Him with all our heart, mind, and soul. I just don't think we can do that by sinning every now and then and claiming to not do the sin intentionally. 



nicola.kirwan said:


> *Someone who actively chooses to continually sin does not have faith, no matter what they say.* As Jesus said, there is one test alone for determining whether someone knows and loves God, and that is whether they obey His commandments.


Thanks for your response, but how do you define or determine what actively choosing to continually sin is? That is the biggest question I have, especially since everyone keeps saying "once you become a believer, that doesn't mean you will never sin again."  Where in the Bible does it say believers do not actively choose to continue to sin but they still sin? That really doesn't make sense at all. I'm sorry. I'm not trying to be funny, sarcastic, or offensive here. To me, any sin we do, is actively choosing to continue to do that sin. Don't you think? How do you get around that?


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## Ije4eva (Mar 16, 2010)

nicola.kirwan said:


> Per the bolded, doesn't the Bible say that "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us"? The Father allowed Jesus to be crucified for our sins before anyone even had a chance to accept or to reject Him. Jesus reached out on the Cross saying, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" while they had just tortured Him and were mocking Him. That's amazing isn't it, that in the midst of being tormented by His creation, He offered forgiveness.
> 
> God doesn't change. He is always offering us forgiveness. And yet we can choose to alienate ourselves from His love by rejecting Him. Regardless of what anyone claims about God's forgiveness, His word clearly says that those who practice unrighteousness will not inherit the Kingdom of God. In fact, Paul says, "Do not be deceived, for God is not mocked. Whatever a man sows, that He will reap." That is what we do if we claim that God will just look the other way at our sin--mocking God, and He does not accept that. If we think that He does, we are deceiving ourselves.
> 
> ...


 

The bolded is an awesome point.  I read this on a website:

"So, we start right-off with a problem...Like I said, proper translations and all...The fact is that the word "Repent" nowadays has all of these religious overtones...In Jesus' day, the word that he spoke meant to the people hearing it, *"Change your thinking!"*  It is not just a matter of changing your actions, but all of your being, renewed from the inside-out, starting with your thinking."


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## Crown (Mar 16, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> To me, any sin we do, is actively choosing to continue to do that sin. Don't you think?



No!
If we consider a sin like a crime, we as humans know to make a difference between a premeditated crime or not. Someone can sin, but did not actively choose to continue to sin.
In a Christian walk or for believers, this is a battle between the spirit and the flesh. The spirit has to overcome the flesh. For some points, it is instantaneous; but for some, it take time for the grace of God to be manifested in a Christian life.

Rom. 7.23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
7.25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God;…




> How do you get around that?


 *Someone is not Christian because he/she says : I am Christian.
 Rom. 8.9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the *Spirit of Christ*, he is none of his.

*Being Christian is a process, a journey.
When a believer sins, this person feels bad, really bad, and has no desire to fell again. Maybe this believer will fell in another area, but not the same; and even in the same area, this person will not lay in this sin, but will rise again, till the victory by the grace of God.
 Rom. 8.13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye *through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body*, ye shall live.

*It’s a personal walk.
A Christian who choose to continue to sin is a person living in the flesh and the life of God is not already manifested in this person at this specific time in his/her walk.
1Cor. 4.21 What will ye? *shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love*, and in the spirit of meekness?
Rom. 8.26 Likewise *the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities*: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

*A christian is changed from glory to glory.
We are at different steps in our walk: some believe that they are Christians but live in the flesh, some have one foot in the flesh and on in the spirit, and some are living in the spirit.
1Cor. 3.18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are *changed into the same image from glory to glory*, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

At the end of the journey, it will be good to say like Paul:
Tim. 4.7 *I have fought a good fight*, I have finished my course, *I have kept the faith*: 4.8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.


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## Aviah (Mar 16, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> I actually found the thread to be quite interesting and enlightening.
> 
> I myself am struggling with the whole idea of what it means to be a Christian. I feel like I'm becoming Agnostic due to all the division among Christianity, corruption, and hypocrisy. If Jesus is the one true way, then why are so many "Christians" abusing God's grace with their sins, and at the same time, looking down on others who sin or don't believe in God or Jesus? Aren't you as a Christian acting like someone who doesn't believe in God when you sin all day everyday and make an excuse that you can't stop because of your sinful fleshly nature from Adam?


 
I very much understand where you are coming from, but these are man's imperfections, not God's. Its not the way God wants it to be, but we have free will and its up to you and you alone to hold yourself to what God wants and having a relationship with him, you know?

At least that's how I do. Do what I am supposed to (or at least try) and what othe people do... well help if they're willing to recieve it, if not then just pray for them and leave it alone...
ETA I just read more of the responses Poohbear, you may want to check out Ravi Zacharias' talks on Youtube. I hope you find something there that makes some sense...

However I think that salvation based on works (never sinning again) presents a problem with the Blood of Jesus and him being instrumental as a Savior. If we could be that way and not sin at all, then there would be no need for the sacrifice. I think the thing with people carrying on sinning is an issue of the heart, you know God looks at the heart whereas man looks as outward things. It would be very frustrating to think that to be holy we must never ever sin again, we would all be very afraid to live, but we're supposed to have life more abundantly. I'm sure its been said people struggle, and we can overcome many things, but I think its just our nature as humans to not be perfect on our own. This isn't to say don't bother trying. You know te scripture about a righteous man falling seven time and still getting up. we cannot hange what has been, we can only take action with the help of god to do better, and call on the Grace of God when we mess up and do worse. Otherwise (to me) its like punishing a child every single time they mess up no matter what their intentions were, or how they intend to change. IMO that's death, not life.
HTH... somehow

(BTW I have had my times of questionning and for me I don't know everything just yet, but I know and have seen enough to keep me trusting God for now.)


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## Poohbear (Mar 16, 2010)

Crown and Aviah, 

I'm not trying to be rude or mean, but it still doesn't make sense to me. 

I just don't buy the fact that Christians who have the Spirit of God don't choose to sin. If a Christian isn't choosing to sin, then what are they doing? Just making innocent little mistakes in the name of Jesus? I don't think so. Any action we do, we choose to do it consciously.

How can one determine for themselves if they have the Spirit of God in them? Just by feeling bad from a sin? What if you feel bad about the sin temporarily, and a few days or weeks or months later, you do the sin again?

How can a Christian's heart still be right with God when they sin? The Bible says our hearts can be deceitful. Are you really sorry and remorseful if you return to sin? Sin breaks fellowship with God, doesn't it?

How can being holy and righteous include evil wicked sin? Just by believing in Jesus?

What is continual habitual sin? Someone said everyone sins everyday. Isn't that continual habitual sin? No matter what, people do things whether right or wrong because they choose to do it. We can't blame Satan or our sinful fleshly nature from Adam for everything. Like you said, we have free will. Christians are using their free will to sin sometimes. Is that the right thing to do? I just don't think so. There's no such thing as a carnal minded Christian... you're either a carnal minded person or a Christian, you can't be both.


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## discobiscuits (Mar 16, 2010)

all Christians who sin *CHOOSE *to sin. instead of resisting the devil causing him to flee, they willingly, knowingly, intentionally chose to sin.


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## PG480 (Mar 16, 2010)

Hi Poohbear, I just read this thread through today and just wanted to add my two cents. I understand where you are coming from because I too have been just where you are. Reading what you have said about your doubts, concerns, confusion, etc. makes me feel that God wants to truly take you to the next level in your relationship with Him, where you will know that you know GOD OUR FATHER IS REAL and that HE LOVES US and has a purpose for us. It has already been mentioned before by some of our Christian Forum sisters, but I just want to emphasize it again, that at this point it will only take a divine revelation of God himself in your life for you to never doubt His existence or His word. I say this out of pure love and understanding because I know that is painful to be even in a place of doubt in your walk with God. Being frustrated is an understandable emotion right now for you, but I think everyone's response comes from a place of love and care in wanting to help you at this time in your life. Please continue to pour out your heart to God,  spend quiet time communing and fellowshipping with him, and I promise you he will show up like never before in your life. I will pray for you through this time and I believe that a time will come when you will share your testimony on how God delivered you through this season in your life. Stay strong and God Bless


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## Poohbear (Mar 16, 2010)

Someone sent me this link which I found to helpful as well. It's sermon about an hour long by Paul Washer. It touches on a little bit of what I'm talking about in regards to being a true believer, but at the same time, he still gives that notion that we all still sin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wX_BPopbKI&annotation_id=annotation_38217&feature=iv


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## Crown (Mar 17, 2010)

I just want to add this :

*David was not a man of God because he has never sinned :
Act. 13.22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave their testimony, and said, *I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart*, which shall fulfill all my will.

*We are the work of God :
Ec. 3.11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

 *God commands sincerity :
Ps. 145.18 The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him *in truth*.

*We don’t want to be like this, but it exists :
Gal. 4.19 My little children, of whom *I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you*, 4.20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.

Only God can satisfy your quest. Spend quality time with Him and His word and :
[FONT=&quot]Col. 3.15 And *let the peace of God rule in your hearts*, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. 3.16 *Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly* in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 3.17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, *do all in the name of the Lord Jesus*, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.[/FONT]


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## Poohbear (Mar 17, 2010)

I never said David was not a man of God because he had never sinned.  But the thing is, after he sinned with Bathsheba, did he go back and sin with her again? NO! He repented. He didn't keep on sinning. That's why he was a man of God. I'm not saying we Christians need to be people who have never sinned. I'm saying once someone becomes a Christian, they should not sin anymore.

But last night, I listened to another one of Paul Washer's sermons entitled Examine Yourself. It was really good. It came out of 2 Corinthians 13:5 and he also went through several verses in 1 John 2. He talked about comparing yourself to the Word of God and not to anything else, so that was helpful to me. While other self-proclaimed Christians may think it's okay to sin, I'm not going to let myself think that way.



Crown said:


> I just want to add this :
> 
> *David was not a man of God because he has never sinned :
> Act. 13.22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave their testimony, and said, *I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart*, which shall fulfill all my will.
> ...


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## Sharpened (Mar 17, 2010)

But what about the trouble David had with Absalom? All of that could have been avoid if David had handled his children's issues. Was that a sin?


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## Renovating (Mar 17, 2010)

Nymphe said:


> But what about the trouble David had with Absalom? All of that could have been avoid if David had handled his children's issues. Was that a sin?


 
Poohbear: 
Exactly, he may not have sinned with Bathsheba again, but I seriously doubt he didn't do anything else wrong before he died. 

After reading the posts, I'm curious and I want to know if you have not done anything wrong in your life since you became a Christian. If this is true, please share with those of us that profess to be a Christian and still struggle with sin exactly how we can accomplish the same. (Please know that I am not being sarcastic, but I'm always seeking ways to perfect my walk with Christ and I would greatly appreciate those suggestions. I understand where you're coming from to a degree. I don't want to be a hypocrite, but it seems to me that in some way we all are.)


I just want to add, although I desire to live a righteous life, it's hard for me to fathom not ever sinning again before I die, especially after watching Kirk Camereon and John Macarthur interview people on TBN. I'm sure you've probably seen it too. 

Well if you haven't he asks people if they think they are a good person. They usually say yes. Then he asks them if they've committed certain sins and even if they didn't physically commit them, they eventually find they sin in their heart/thoughts. 

For example, I choose to be celibate, but I would be lying if I said I didn't mentally lust after Lamman Rucker. (LOL!) 
I'm sorry but I don't feel like I'm any less of a Christian because I feel that way about him. I do ask God to help me to refrain from lustful thoughts and I try to avoid exposing my eyes and ears to certain things. 
I think it's possible to stop committing "visible" sins, but what about you're heart and mind. I think that's why Phil 3:13-14  
indicates we don't have it all together but we are striving towards perfection. 
(Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: *Forgetting what is behind and straining *toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.)


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## Crown (Mar 17, 2010)

.................................


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## Poohbear (Mar 17, 2010)

*authenticitymanifesting,*

I know you're not being sarcastic. You must not have seen some of my other posts, but I am also talking about myself when I talk about Christians that sin. That's why I was telling others in this thread not to take what I say as personal because I'm talking about myself too! 

To answer your question, Yes, I have done wrong in my life since becoming a Christian. In fact, I did more wrong after professing a faith in Christ than before I did. I started to believe in Christ around the age of 8.  Around the end of high school and into college, I started sinning more and more and even doing sins I didn't desire to do and I knew clearly and consciously that these sins were against the will of God.  For instance, I never said one curse word until I was maybe a freshman in college. I didn't have my first drink of alcohol until I was 24. But now, 2 years later, I no longer drink. I see no need to and do not want to. I'm still shocked to this day that I ever had a drink of alcohol because I did not desire it ever until I was 24 for some odd reason. But anyway, all this time, I would go to church every Sunday, teach children, help out in different church ministries from time to time, encourage and give Biblical words of advice to people, but yet, I was committing sin every now and then. 

I am someone that a lot of people would consider a good person, but that does not matter. I even consider myself a relatively good person, but to me, any sin or wrongdoing is against God. But even if I did not believe in God, I myself hate sin and do not like doing things that I consider wrong. And I just don't see how anyone that sins is exercising true repentance or faith.  We are taught "now that we believe in Jesus, we have forgiveness of sins. He forgives us over and over and over." I just don't buy that anymore. That's a miserable way to live to just know you're gonna keep sinning because of your sinful nature and relying on this spiritual being God, Jesus, Holy Ghost to take away the guilt and shame of your sins just to fall right back into sin, whether its the same sin or a different sin.

From what I read in the Bible, God is telling us:

*"If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."

"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning."

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."*

I could go on about what the Bible says about sin. Those verses were from the book of First John. There are Christians committing sins that God said shall not inherit the kingdom of God. I just can't ignore these verses if I'm going to be a true Christian. That's why we have so many people calling Christians hypocrites. Then Christians want to get on the defense about how "no one is perfect." So what? It's not an excuse to do the bad things that you're choosing to do.

And read *Matthew 7:13-27*. Jesus teaches about the way to heaven,* "narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life"*. He speaks of good trees cannot bring forth evil fruit. He speaks of not everyone who says "Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven." Jesus says *"I never knew you, depart from me, ye that work iniquity." * 

It's one thing to know this Jesus, but does Jesus know you?  We can go up to the White House and cry "I know President Obama. Let me in. I want to see him." They are not going to let you in if President Obama doesn't know you.

I feel like the Bible wants us to live a holy righteous life. He doesn't want us to live as though Jesus never gave us a law to obey.  He wants us to bear the fruits of the Holy Spirit and keep on keeping his commandments. Christians must do the will of God as a style of life, not works, but evidence of faith, for just profession alone means nothing.

And you mentioned we can stop committing "visible" sins. God wants us to stop committing ALL sins! And about thoughts and feelings, they can tempt us to sin, our job is to not yield to that sin.  Lust is different than a thought and feeling, it's clearly sin. It's an evil desire of the heart according to the Bible. That's good that you are staying celibate while you are unmarried, but there's also a way to not lust while you are on your journey. There's people that do not lust. It's all about self-control.  As far as thoughts and feelings, let's say a thought comes to mind to say "you need to seek revenge on that person for doing you wrong." If you seek revenge, you sin. If you don't seek revenge, you do not sin. You actually resisted that temptation to sin. You made your evil fleshly nature suffer and abideth in the Spirit.

But hey, I don't know. I'm just a mere black woman living in the USA. I could be wrong about all my thoughts, feelings, questions, doubts, fears, so on and so forth... Maybe I'm thinking too much and analyzing this Bible thing too much, however, I still feel like my questions are valid, especially since Christianity is the religion I was brought up into. 




authenticitymanifesting said:


> Poohbear:
> Exactly, he may not have sinned with Bathsheba again, but I seriously doubt he didn't do anything else wrong before he died.
> 
> *After reading the posts, I'm curious and I want to know if you have not done anything wrong in your life since you became a Christian. If this is true, please share with those of us that profess to be a Christian and still struggle with sin exactly how we can accomplish the same. (Please know that I am not being sarcastic, but I'm always seeking ways to perfect my walk with Christ and I would greatly appreciate those suggestions. I understand where you're coming from to a degree. I don't want to be a hypocrite, but it seems to me that in some way we all are.)*
> ...


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## Renovating (Mar 17, 2010)

I agree that you do have valid questions and I wish I had answers for you.

I noticed you said lust is different from a feeling or thought. Do you think that lustful thoughts/feelings are not regarded as sins by the Lord?  If so, maybe that's where the disconnect lies, because when I think of sin, I think of any type of impurity- whether it's a thought, action, or feeling. Maybe that's why it's hard for me to understand a human being having the ablility to avoid sin totally after accepting Christ as their Lord and savior.


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## Poohbear (Mar 17, 2010)

authenticitymanifesting said:


> I agree that you do have valid questions and I wish I had answers for you.
> 
> I noticed you said lust is different from a feeling or thought. *Do you think that lustful thoughts/feelings are not regarded as sins by the Lord?* If so, maybe that's where the disconnect lies, because when I think of sin, I think of any type of impurity- whether it's a thought, action, or feeling. Maybe that's why it's hard for me to understand a human being having the ablility to avoid sin totally after accepting Christ as their Lord and savior.


Yes. If it's a lustful thought or feeling, it is sin.  I was talking about some nonlustful thoughts and feelings may not always be sin, but rather temptations to sin. But then again, I could be wrong...

 All I know is that the Bible says in *2 Corinthians 10:3-6: *

*3For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: *

* 4(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; ) *

* 5Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; *

* 6And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. *


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## Poohbear (Mar 17, 2010)

Crown said:


> And his children, Tamar and Amnon (Sam. 13)???
> 
> Don't think Bathsheba was the only sin of David.
> 
> David was sincere and ready to repent and to move on and not sin the same again.


David sinned with Bathsheba in 2 Samuel 11. He repented in chapter 12. In chapter 13, it talks about David's son Amnon raping his own sister Tamar.  Then David's other son, Absalom murdered Amnon. It didn't say David committed any sin with his children.  His family just started to suffer as a consequence of his past sin. God told David that murder would be a constant threat in his family, his family would rebel, and someone else would sleep with his wives.


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## Avyn (Mar 17, 2010)

I think that all sin stems from selfishness.  Its a form of pride that makes ones wants and desires bigger than God and His ability to deliver us from ourselves, pressures, etc.  I think that if people really, really, KNEW God and have experienced His power and love, they would become very uncomfortable with their prideful natures.  I pray and hope that my Christian brothers and sisters will press into God and experience Him even just one time, their hearts will always pull them back to that experience no matter what they choose or fall into that experience will always be an anchor.

I struggled for a while with atheism and becoming an agnostic for the for some struggles i felt were never ending and for the same reasons as Poohbear, but God drew me back to Him with Love.

I have more to say, but lunch is over.  I'll come back later.


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## CoilyFields (Mar 17, 2010)

Hey Poohbear,
I have not gotten a chance to read the whole thread yet so forgive me if Im repeating something but one thing stuck out to me...our sinful nature.

When sin entered the world the whole world was cursed. And the nature of human beings was forever tarred with the desire for things that are not of God.

Even if we never do any sinful acts, Jesus has told us in Matthews that even our thoughts are held accountable, and in Hebrews it talks about the law being written on our hearts now (meaning we are not only held accountable for physically breaking the law but mentally doing it as well). And we have to understand that becuase God is SOOOOOO Holy...even our very nature is an offense to his perfection. So no matter how good we are, as long as we are cloaked in this flesh we cannot stand before him on our own merit...hence the need for the blood of Jesus until judgement day.

Jesus was the only sinless person to walk this earth. That was because he had not inherited the sinful nature of man and so had never done any wrong in thought or deed.
Now when the Bible talks about Job it calls him a perfect and upright man...but we see where he sinned. David was a man after Gods own heart, as mentioned above...but he sinned.  So being sinless...is impossible...being blameless is expected.

I'm just curious though...do you think ANYONE would get into heaven if it was predicated upon never sinning again?

Being a Christian is about confessing and believing that Jesus is Lord, being blameless is about our sanctification...striving to be as Holy as the Royal family that we have been adopted into so that when people see you they glorify God. (I see the two as different) And I feel that that is why all the major people in the bible that were greatly used by God had flaws that God allowed to be exposed (most of them AFTER he had called them).

Gril I hope Im not way off with this response lol.


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## Poohbear (Mar 17, 2010)

CoilyFields, thanks for your response.

In Phillippians 4:8, God tells us to "Fix your thoughts on what is true and good and right. Think about things that are pure and lovely, and dwell on the fine, good things in others. Think about all you can praise God for and be glad about."

An evil action begins with a single thought. Allowing your mind to dwell on lust, envy, hate, or revenge will lead to sin. When you focus on evil, it will defile you. In other words, while we have been born into this sinful body, we must resist its temptations and make our sinful body suffer and depend on the Spirit of God. Being born into a sinful body and knowing that Jesus was the only sinless man to ever walk the earth doesn't give us a license to keep on sinning.


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## sunnysmyler (Mar 17, 2010)

Oh where is Shimmie when we need her! lol


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## CoilyFields (Mar 17, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> CoilyFields, thanks for your response.
> 
> In Phillippians 4:8, God tells us to "Fix your thoughts on what is true and good and right. Think about things that are pure and lovely, and dwell on the fine, good things in others. Think about all you can praise God for and be glad about."
> 
> An evil action begins with a single thought. Allowing your mind to dwell on lust, envy, hate, or revenge will lead to sin. When you focus on evil, it will defile you. In other words, while we have been born into this sinful body, we must resist its temptations and make our sinful body suffer and depend on the Spirit of God. Being born into a sinful body and knowing that Jesus was the only sinless man to ever walk the earth doesn't give us a license to keep on sinning.


 
It sure doesnt! Should we sin because grace abounds...GOd forbid!  All of these scriptures are there to guide us on how to live a holy life. And we have to be proactive in refraining from sin. But this does not preclude the fact that there will never be another person to walk this earth that does not ever sin. ONce again...this does NOT mean that we get a pass and are not held accountable for our sins.

Maybe Im not understanding youre premiss...are you saying that if you are a christian/saved and you commit a sin...then you really arent a christian/saved?


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## Crown (Mar 17, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> David sinned with Bathsheba in 2 Samuel 11. He repented in chapter 12. In chapter 13, it talks about David's son Amnon raping his own sister Tamar.  Then David's other son, Absalom murdered Amnon. It didn't say David committed any sin with his children.  His family just started to suffer as a consequence of his past sin. God told David that murder would be a constant threat in his family, his family would rebel, and someone else would sleep with his wives.



I was agreeing with Nymphe.
David did not act like the king and a father in this situation.

I did not read all the thread, but maybe it could be better to define what is a sin.


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## Aviah (Mar 17, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Crown and Aviah,
> 
> I'm not trying to be rude or mean, but it still doesn't make sense to me.
> 
> ...



Of course Christians choose to sin. Just because we accept Christ doesn't mean that the fact that we know of evil, like to please the flesh or are simply imperfect human beings changes. I'm not sure if you're thinking that there should be a transformation into perfection as soon as you say "I do" to God... And yes, I believe that it is still possible to make mistakes though you are saved. Unfortunately life is not presented to us in little black and white sections where choices are relayed to us slowly one at a time and we are given time to think about it in absence of emotion, circumstance, worldly influence, etc. Sometimes we do things spur of the moment (for example hit back if someone hits you) its not as simple as saying I am going to sin against God now, sometimes, if we're real God is the furthest one from our thoughts at those points in time. Somethings I don't think we can help like sinful thoughts, sometimes, out of nowhere things do pop into your mind, and as quick as you can rebuke yourself for it, its already done. I think the problem with those may be to deliberately, continuously, unrepentantly, focus on those types of thoughts without any intention of stopping knowing fully well that they are wrong.

As for knowing whether someone has the Spirit of God, I think its not only about the fruits of the spirit, though the Bible does say that you will know them by their fruits, but I think its knowing when He's talking to you (IMHO), just recognizing His presence working in you, correcting you, warning you, guiding you etc. Guilt of course is temporary and can be felt by anyone who has any set of morals. Guilt does not determine whether you have the Spirit in you, though it may be an indication in some circumstances. To me its like asking how you are sure that your friend is next to you talking to you, there's no way to explain it to someone who has no eyes, ears, tactile sense, etc. Its just something you begin to know.

I don't think anyone is saying that it is okay, or right to sin all the time, but I think we agree in saying that if you sin once in your lifetime after recieveing Christ that there is no hope for you and whatever grace and mercy that the Bible claims God gives is null and voiderplexed.

Before I continue, I need to ask this, just to be clear- Are you expecting/ thinking it should be the case that we become perfect (never sinning again) from the point that we accept Christ?


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## Poohbear (Mar 18, 2010)

CoilyFields said:


> Maybe Im not understanding youre premiss...are you saying that if you are a christian/saved and you commit a sin...then you really arent a christian/saved?


 


Aviah said:


> Before I continue, I need to ask this, just to be clear- Are you expecting/ thinking it should be the case that we become perfect (never sinning again) from the point that we accept Christ?


 
Yes to both questions...

Just think... why do you have so many people calling Christians hypocrites when they do something wrong? Even Christians themselves are calling others hypocrites or judging their salvation based on their actions. 

That's why I question whether or not I'm a Christian because I still sin sometimes. If there's a God or a Jesus, he cannot be pleased with me or anyone that does any sin in the Bible. He does not condone sin at all.

I just feel like if we are going to keep on sinning til we die, what's the point of even believing and trusting in a Jesus that supposedly saved you FROM sin?  You're not really saved from sin if you keep dippin' and dabbin' in it every now and then.

The Bible has clear verses about sin in the Book of 1 John. How can we just ignore these verses in light of everything else the Bible says? The Bible contradicts itself in so many ways. That's why there are so many denominations and bible versions, and we're suppose to be in unity.

The Bible even speaks about you can't be lukewarm. Why do we ignore that too? 

And there's nonbelievers that are living and behaving more morally than believers. But yet, we are told that a good nonbeliever will go to Hell and and bad believer will go to Heaven just for merely believing in Jesus.


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## Poohbear (Mar 18, 2010)

Crown said:


> I did not read all the thread, but maybe it could be better to define what is a sin.


We all know what sin is. It's any willful transgression against God's will, a wrongdoing.

When God gives us new life, sin's power is broken. Sin-loving nature is buried. You are no longer under sin's control. When God gives us a new nature, you share His new life. You look upon your old sin nature as dead and unresponsive, and instead be alive to God. When God gives us new freedom, you do not let sin control you. You give yourselves completely to God. You are free. You submit yourselves to obey Christ in perfect freedom.

I feel like that's what being a Christian is all about. And God lays that out in Romans 6.

I know some of you will come back in here and try to take up for sin and say "That's just not possible. We have sinful bodies, blah blah blah..." Well, then maybe you don't have a new life or a new nature in Christ Jesus. Maybe you need to rate your heart's obedience. We can't be halfhearted. God says we should be wholehearted.


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## HoneyA (Mar 18, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> And there's nonbelievers that are living and behaving more morally than believers.



I said this to someone the other day and people from religions and beliefs other than Christianity who are living and behaving more morally too. I understand exactly where you are coming from and there's nothing wrong with posing questions. In light of everything I see and hear and what I see in myself and in other Christians, I am wondering if it wouldn't just be better to strive to be the best person that I can be from where I stand, help others when and where I can, be uplifting and positive and call it a day. If we are honest with ourselves there are too many contradictions, too many scriptures taken out of context and too many interpretations. I'm just musing...


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## Poohbear (Mar 18, 2010)

HoneyA said:


> I said this to someone the other day and people from religions and beliefs other than Christianity who are living and behaving more morally too. I understand exactly where you are coming from and there's nothing wrong with posing questions. In light of everything I see and hear and what I see in myself and in other Christians, I am wondering if it wouldn't just be better to strive to be the best person that I can be from where I stand, help others when and where I can, be uplifting and positive and call it a day. If we are honest with ourselves there are too many contradictions, too many scriptures taken out of context and too many interpretations. I'm just musing...


I agree.

There's some Christians who believe Jesus wasn't God or don't believe in the notion of Trinity. Others do.

There's some Christians who don't believe in women pastors. Others do.

There's some Christians who don't believe in once saved always saved. Others do.

There's some Christians who don't believe in the full immersion in water for baptism. Others do.

I could go on! And every Christian has Bible scriptures to support their stance. And some of them even use the same scriptures to support different stances.

And right now, to be completely honest, I don't know WHAT to believe anymore when it comes to the different fundamentals of Christianity. I have taken some stances on Christian issues before, but to be honest, I cannot take these stances anymore because of the contradictions.

And I agree with you HoneyA that I'm just going to strive to be the best person I can be without living in fear to man's standards.


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## Poohbear (Mar 18, 2010)

sunnysmyler said:


> Oh where is Shimmie when we need her! lol


For what? Shimmie is a nice woman, but she is not some divine higher power with all the answers and truth to everything.


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## Renovating (Mar 18, 2010)

Aviah said:


> Of course Christians choose to sin. Just because we accept Christ doesn't mean that the fact that we know of evil, like to please the flesh or are simply imperfect human beings changes. I'm not sure if you're thinking that there should be a transformation into perfection as soon as you say "I do" to God... And yes, I believe that it is still possible to make mistakes though you are saved. Unfortunately life is not presented to us in little black and white sections where choices are relayed to us slowly one at a time and we are given time to think about it in absence of emotion, circumstance, worldly influence, etc. Sometimes we do things spur of the moment (for example hit back if someone hits you) its not as simple as saying I am going to sin against God now, sometimes, if we're real God is the furthest one from our thoughts at those points in time. Somethings I don't think we can help like sinful thoughts, sometimes, out of nowhere things do pop into your mind, and as quick as you can rebuke yourself for it, its already done. I think the problem with those may be to deliberately, continuously, unrepentantly, focus on those types of thoughts without any intention of stopping knowing fully well that they are wrong.
> 
> As for knowing whether someone has the Spirit of God, I think its not only about the fruits of the spirit, though the Bible does say that you will know them by their fruits, but I think its knowing when He's talking to you (IMHO), just recognizing His presence working in you, correcting you, warning you, guiding you etc. Guilt of course is temporary and can be felt by anyone who has any set of morals. Guilt does not determine whether you have the Spirit in you, though it may be an indication in some circumstances. To me its like asking how you are sure that your friend is next to you talking to you, there's no way to explain it to someone who has no eyes, ears, tactile sense, etc. Its just something you begin to know.
> 
> ...


 

Aviah, you expressed my thoughts perfectly. There are too many other factors involved in our lives for us to become perfect after salvation, especially emotions.  Without emotions, I'm sure we would all be able to approach every situation with logic.  For example the sin of gluttony, we all know it's wrong, but how many Christian women have indulged in ice cream for comfort after a heartbreak? They were not eating for nourishment and it can be considered gluttony. This issue of sin is just too complexed to say we should be perfect after we accept Christ. 

After salvation your intentions and the meditation of your heart are different.


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## Renovating (Mar 18, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> I agree.
> 
> And I agree with you HoneyA that I'm just going to strive to be the best person I can be without living in fear to man's standards.


 
I agree and I think this is all we can do. ( along with constant prayer, faith, and ask God to give US discernment to interpret the word)


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## Poohbear (Mar 18, 2010)

authenticitymanifesting said:


> I agree and I think this is all we can do. ( along with constant prayer, faith, and ask God to give US discernment to interpret the word)


How can I ask God -- who is suppose to be this Divine Being, this Holy Spirit, that I cannot see, hear, nor touch -- for discernment on a word that was written by man?

Yes, the Bible says in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

But guess what? Man wrote that in there!

And guess what it says in those verses that Christians clearly ignore: "...for *instruction in righteousness*: That the man of God may be *perfect*..."

It does not say so that the man of God may be a believing sinner.

Is man actually this God that is written about in the Bible?


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## Poohbear (Mar 18, 2010)

Better yet, read at the whole chapter of 2 Timothy 3:

*2 Timothy 3:1-17 (King James Version)*

1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 

2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 

3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 

4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 

5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 

6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 

7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 

8Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 

9But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was. 

10But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, 

11Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. 

12Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 

13But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 

14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 

15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 

16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 

17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In many parts of the world today, it does not seem very difficult to be a Christian--people aren't jailed for reading the Bible or executed for preaching Christ. In this chapter, Paul list behaviors in the last days which describe our society--even many Christians. There is a comfortableness about superficial Christianity that should cause true Christians to be uncomfortable. Self proclaiming Christians should check their lives against this list. True Christians do not give in to society's pleasures. True Christians stand up against its evil ways by living as God would have His people live.

The form or appearance of godliness includes going to church, knowing Christian doctrine, using Christian cliches, and following a community's Christian traditions. Such practices can make a person look good, but if the inner attitudes of belief, love, and worship are lacking, the outer appearance is meaningless. Paul warns people not to be deceived by people who only appear to be Christians. It may be difficult to distinguish them from true Christians at first, but their lives will give them away. The characteristics that Paul describes in verses 2-4 are unmistakable.


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## discobiscuits (Mar 18, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> For what? Shimmie is a nice woman, but she is not some divine higher power with all the answers and truth to everything.



no, she isn't but she has a kind spirit and when she speaks it is in love. i have yet to see her e-attack me, you or any other person when she disagrees with them. this is not true for other members in the CF. some people may not like or agree with her but Shimmie has a kind, sweet, loving spirit and to me is the closest thing we have on LHCF or the CF to an example of how to love others & live in peace with others. i miss her too for just those reasons. we need her kind, sweet aroma.


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## discobiscuits (Mar 18, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> And right now, to be completely honest, I don't know WHAT to believe anymore when it comes to the different fundamentals of Christianity. I have taken some stances on Christian issues before, but to be honest, I cannot take these stances anymore because of the contradictions.
> 
> And I agree with you HoneyA that I'm just going to strive to be the best person I can be without living in fear to man's standards.



i thought it was agreed that the fundamentals are to love god with all your heart, soul, mind, love yourself and love others as yourself (and honor* your parents a commandment w/ promise) and all the rest is *debatable* & you must be fully convinced in your mind/heart with what you believe within the confines of scripture.


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## sunnysmyler (Mar 18, 2010)

1star said:


> no, she isn't but she has a kind spirit and when she speaks it is in love. i have yet to see her e-attack me, you or any other person when she disagrees with them. this is not true for other members in the CF. some people may not like or agree with her but Shimmie has a kind, sweet, loving spirit and to me is the closest thing we have on LHCF or the CF to an example of how to love others & live in peace with others. i miss her too for just those reasons. we need her kind, sweet aroma.


 

1Star, I couldn't have said it better myself. I love Shimmie even though I've never met her, all of her post, and responses are written with such Godly wisdom and ALWAY said in love. You can feel the love floating off of the computer screen and that is a true gift from GOD. Ain't her aroma kind and sweet. I love her!:heart2:

Pooh,  no need to get defensive, my post was intended to be light hearted, but you had to respond in a funky/snappy way. I realize you are frustrated in your quest for the TRUTH, but slow down sista. I love you and it was not my intention to offend you. 

Peace!


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## CoilyFields (Mar 18, 2010)

Poohbear,

Sis it seems like you are having a lot of doubts about not only the christian religion but about God himself.  No condemnation here...we need to be sure about what we believe. What particular doubts are plaguing you? Below is a list that I've taken from your posts but please add to them or correct them:

1. Once someone is saved, how is it that they sin again and remain saved (or was ever really saved in the first place)?

2. The Bible seems to contradict itself, and how can be trust it as divinely inspired. 

3. Is salvation necessary...meaning arent moral unbelievers better off than immoral believers?


I just want to understand exactly what your questions are.

To the one you answered for me before (if you sin you are not a christian)...Do you believe that Peter, for example, is heaven bound? We have clear instances where Peter sinned After he expressed his faith in Jesus and even after the resurrection. Do you believe that God will turn him away at judgement (i realize that none of us know the final judgement but Im asking according to your beliefs).


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## Aviah (Mar 18, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Yes to both questions...
> 
> Just think... why do you have so many people calling Christians hypocrites when they do something wrong? Even Christians themselves are calling others hypocrites or judging their salvation based on their actions.
> 
> ...



1 John 5-10
5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all* sin.
 8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

From what I understand here, it says in God there is no darkness. Not man. I looked up the word walk in my concordance and it comes from the word shield in the Greek. Think: if we are shielded by the light, or protected by the light and not the darkness etc, the blood of Jesus purifies us from all sin(at least this is my humble understanding). The Bible itself says that if we say we have no sin we are liars. It says here that there is forgiveness when we confess.  Obviously God does forgive. 

In Hebrews 10:11 it talks about atoning for our sins once and for all (for those that choose to accept this atonement and become saved/walk with Christ/ seek to be renewed daily/seek to love God and obey him more, etc etc however you choose to breakdown a walk with Christ. It talks about salvation by faith, and from what I have come to understand it is that faith that begins to work within us to produce good works. It is not by the works themselves that we are saved. Otherwise its impossible for anyone anywhere to enter heaven. Towards the end it mentions those deliberately rejecting the law of Grace. Its not a law of works only. faith without works is dead, the faith leads to the works, what is missed out God covers with grace at His discretion, we cannot see all of a person's life circumstances to judge the way God can, honestly and fairly. As for who will make heaven, we will see.

    11Furthermore, every [human] priest stands [at his altar of service] ministering daily, offering the same sacrifices over and over again, which never are able to strip [from every side of us] the sins [that envelop us] and take them away--

    12Whereas this One [Christ], after He had offered a single sacrifice for our sins [that shall avail] for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,

    13Then to wait until His enemies should be made a stool beneath His feet.(C)

    14For by a single offering He has forever completely cleansed and perfected those who are consecrated and made holy.

    15And also the Holy Spirit adds His testimony to us [in confirmation of this]. For having said,

    16This is the agreement (testament, covenant) that I will set up and conclude with them after those days, says the Lord: I will imprint My laws upon their hearts, and I will inscribe them on their minds (on their inmost thoughts and understanding),

    17He then goes on to say, And their sins and their lawbreaking I will remember no more.(D)

    18Now where there is absolute remission (forgiveness and cancellation of the penalty) of these [sins and lawbreaking], there is no longer any offering made to atone for sin.

    19Therefore, brethren, since we have full freedom and confidence to enter into the [Holy of] Holies [by the power and virtue] in the blood of Jesus,

    20By this fresh (new) and living way which He initiated and dedicated and opened for us through the separating curtain (veil of the Holy of Holies), that is, through His flesh,

    21And since we have [such] a great and wonderful and noble Priest [Who rules] over the house of God,

    22Let us all come forward and draw near with true (honest and sincere) hearts in unqualified assurance and absolute conviction engendered by faith (by that leaning of the entire human personality on God in absolute trust and confidence in His power, wisdom, and goodness), having our hearts sprinkled and purified from a guilty (evil) conscience and our bodies cleansed with pure water.

    23So let us seize and hold fast and retain without wavering the [c]hope we cherish and confess and our acknowledgement of it, for He Who promised is reliable (sure) and faithful to His word.

    24And let us consider and give [d]attentive, continuous care to watching over one another, studying how we may stir up (stimulate and incite) to love and helpful deeds and noble activities,

    25Not forsaking or neglecting to assemble together [as believers], as is the habit of some people, but admonishing (warning, urging, and encouraging) one another, and all the more faithfully as you see the day approaching.

    26For if we go on deliberately and willingly sinning after once acquiring the knowledge of the Truth, there is no longer any sacrifice left to atone for [our] sins [no further offering to which to look forward].
cont'd...*


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## Aviah (Mar 18, 2010)

Here is an article I found on what salvation means:

Footnotes:
http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-doctrine-salvation.html
Question: "What is salvation? What is the Christian doctrine of salvation?"

Answer: Salvation is deliverance from danger or suffering. To save is to deliver or protect. The word carries the idea of victory, health, or preservation. Sometimes, the Bible uses the words saved or salvation to refer to temporal, physical deliverance, such as Paul’s deliverance from prison (Philippians 1:19). 

More often, the word “salvation” concerns an eternal, spiritual deliverance. When Paul told the Philippian jailer what he must do to be saved, he was referring to the jailer’s eternal destiny (Acts 16:30-31). Jesus equated being saved with entering the kingdom of God (Matthew 19:24-25).

What are we saved from? In the Christian doctrine of salvation, we are saved from “wrath,” that is, from God’s judgment of sin (Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9). Our sin has separated us from God, and the consequence of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Biblical salvation refers to our deliverance from the consequence of sin and therefore involves the removal of sin.

Who does the saving? Only God can remove sin and deliver us from sin’s penalty (2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5).

How does God save? In the Christian doctrine of salvation, God has rescued us through Christ (John 3:17). Specifically, it was Jesus’ death on the cross and subsequent resurrection that achieved our salvation (Romans 5:10; Ephesians 1:7). Scripture is clear that salvation is the gracious, undeserved gift of God (Ephesians 2:5, 8) and is only available through faith in Jesus Christ (Acts 4:12). 

How do we receive salvation? We are saved by faith. First, we must hear the gospel—the good news of Jesus’ death and resurrection (Ephesians 1:13). Then, we must believe—fully trust the Lord Jesus (Romans 1:16). This involves repentance, a changing of mind about sin and Christ (Acts 3:19), and calling on the name of the Lord (Romans 10:9-10, 13).

A definition of the Christian doctrine of salvation would be “The deliverance, by the grace of God, from eternal punishment for sin which is granted to those who accept by faith God’s conditions of repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus.” Salvation is available in Jesus alone (John 14:6; Acts 4:12) and is dependent on God alone for provision, assurance, and security.

Article on salvation via faith/works:
http://www.gotquestions.org/salvation-faith-alone.html

Answer: This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation, the split between the Protestant churches and Catholic Church. This question is a key difference between biblical Christianity and most of the “Christian” cults. Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things?

The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).

Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does: “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17). James and Paul do not disagree in their teaching regarding salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that genuine faith in Christ produces good works.


Me again:
All in all PoohBear, I don't know if I'm understanding your perspective on why salvation should be based on works only, why grace goes out the window, and forgiveness is not available according to the way *I THINK* you're seeing it. I noticed you spoke about following after God halfheartedly, you know that as a human being that even when trying full heartedly you're not perfect, even at little man-made assignments. You can't deny bring human/ having flesh as a factor, the Bible itself says that they wrestle. Even Paul said the things that he doesn't want to do, he ends up doing "Oh wretched man that I am, who will ave me from this body of death?" He asks, and responds, Jesus.
 IMHO (yes I may be wrong) it seems you wants  something different to what you already know, and _may_ be throwing the baby out with the bathwater here. I am in no way against questioning what we're about (or supposed to be about) but like Anthony Flew says in his book "There is a God" (2004) there must be a premise in any philosophical argument that you must simply take as a given, otherwise the argument never get started.( I'm paraphrasing here, but its like asking what made the universe and then arguing about what the universe really means and why that definition stands and questioning why said reasons justify the definition etc- you never get to the point of even arguing about what created the universe, know what I mean?) The same way you can't dissect every foundational argument/postulation (we can only get so far philosophically like that) there comes a point where you accept something very basic and are able to move from there. I really hope these have helped you, and please try not get overly critical, because it may cause you to look for more problems then trying to find a solution (not saying that you are). Even if we fragmented and dissected something as simple as how do you know that you exist, you would go crazy.
Really HTH in some way...


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## Aviah (Mar 19, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Better yet, read at the whole chapter of 2 Timothy 3:
> 
> *2 Timothy 3:1-17 (King James Version)*
> 
> ...




Furthermore (this is the last one until PB responds, I promise)
Something I  hope you can appreciate. The attributes above are definitely to live by, it is written. I agree there are many "pretend Christians". God said you will know by their fruits, and what He told me personally about fruit is that it does not form overnight. Fruit, is something that under a multiple of factors over a period of time is formed. A fruit may grow consistently for a time and miss a day, this does not make it a bad fruit. However bad fruit is consistently wrong and evil deeds- both are intentional. 

I'll stop here.


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## Poohbear (Mar 19, 2010)

Thanks Aviah for your responses. I appreciate your time.

So salvation is saved from Hell, not saved from committing sin, correct?

And in my posts, I wasn't saying salvation should be based on works only. I was just saying shouldn't a true Christian not sin anymore if he or she is going to put all their trust in Jesus Christ. And I was getting this from a lady I met who is from the Church of God denomination. But I guess that's wrong too according to this confusing Christian doctrine.

But anyway, I talked to a friend of mine yesterday, and he said there are 7 Dispensations of the Bible, and right now, we are in a Grace Period. He said not all of the Bible applies to today and I can actually agree to that. I have been taking everything literally. I'm going to research these 7 dispensations of the Bible to see if this will help me understand better because what I have been taught, what I have learned, and what I have read for mself doesn't make any sense to me anymore right now.

But I do wonder about something else too... my friend is Apostolic and he believes that no one knows if they're going to heaven. Even if you're saved, you still don't know because it all depends on God's judgement of our lives when the world ends. So that threw me off too. It's like everyone has all these different beliefs about Christianity and I don't know what to believe anymore and it's scary. It just makes me not want to believe in anything.


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## Poohbear (Mar 19, 2010)

Here's a picture of the 7 Dispensations of the Bible:








These periods are marked off in Scripture by some change in God's method of dealing with mankind, or a portion of mankind, in respect of the two questions: of sin, and of man's responsibility. Each of the dispensations may be regarded as a new test of the natural man, and each ends in judgment, marking his utter failure in every dispensation. Five of these dispensations, or periods of time, have been fulfilled; we are living in the sixth, probably toward its close, and have before us the seventh, and last: the millennium.

*1. Man innocent*. 

"This dispensation extends from the creation of Adam in Genesis 2:7 to the expulsion from Eden. Adam, created innocent and ignorant of good and evil, was placed in the garden of Eden with his wife, Eve, and put under responsibility to abstain from the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The dispensation of innocence resulted in the first failure of man, and in its far-reaching effects, the most disastrous. It closed in judgment: "So he drove out the man." See Gen. 1:26; Gen. 2:16,17; Gen. 3:6; Gen. 3:22-24.)"
*Salvation Gospel in this dispensation:*

Do not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Genesis 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."​​
​*2. Man under conscience*.

"By the fall, Adam and Eve acquired and transmitted to the race the knowledge of good and evil. This gave conscience a basis for right moral judgment, and hence the race came under this measure of responsibility -- to do good and eschew evil. The result of the dispensation of conscience, from Eden to the flood (while there was no institution of government and of law), was that "all flesh had corrupted his way on the earth," that "the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually," and God closed the second testing of the natural man with judgment: the flood. See Gen. 3:7, 22; Gen. 6:5,11-12; Gen. 7:11-12, 23.)"
*Salvation Gospel in this dispensation:*

Do good and do not do evil, or love what is good and hate what is evil.
Genesis 3:22 Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-- 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.​​
​*3. Man in authority over the earth*.

"Out of the fearful judgment of the flood God saved eight persons, to whom, after the waters were assuaged, He gave the purified earth with ample power to govern it. This, Noah and his descendants were responsible to do. The dispensation of human government resulted, upon the plain of Shinar, in the impious attempt to become independent of God and closed in judgment: the confusion of tongues. (See Gen. 9: 1, 2; Gen. 11: 1-4; Gen. 11:5-8.)"
*Salvation Gospel in this dispensation:*

Believe God and build an ark.
Genesis 6:16 "You shall make a window for the ark, and you shall finish it to a cubit from above; and set the door of the ark in its side. You shall make it [with] lower, second, and third [decks]. 17 "And behold, I Myself am bringing floodwaters on the earth, to destroy from under heaven all flesh in which [is] the breath of life; everything that [is] on the earth shall die. 18 "But I will establish My covenant with you; and you shall go into the ark--you, your sons, your wife, and your sons' wives with you.​​
​*4. Man under promise*.

"Out of the dispersed descendants of the builders of Babel, God called one man, Abram, with whom He enters into covenant. Some of the promises to Abram and his descendants were purely gracious and unconditional. These either have been or will yet be literally fulfilled. Other promises were conditional upon the faithfulness and obedience of the Israelites. Every one of these conditions was violated, and the dispensation of promise resulted in the failure of Israel and closed in the judgment of bondage in Egypt." 
"The book of Genesis, which opens with the sublime words, "In the beginning God created," closes with, "In a coffin in Egypt." (See Gen. 12:1-3; Gen. 13:14-17; Gen. 15:5; Gen. 26:3; Gen. 28:12-13; Exod. 1: 13-14.)"
*Salvation Gospel in this dispensation:*​ 
Believe God's promise.
Genesis 12:1 Now the Lord had said to Abram: "Get out of your country, From your family And from your father's house, To a land that I will show you. 2 I will make you a great nation; I will bless you.​


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## Poohbear (Mar 19, 2010)

_(continued)..._

*5. Man under law.*

"Again the grace of God came to the help of helpless man and redeemed the chosen people out of the hand of the oppressor. In the wilderness of Sinai He proposed to them the covenant of law. Instead of humbly pleading for a continued relation of grace, they presumptuously answered: "All that the Lord hath spoken we will do." The history of Israel in the wilderness and in the land is one long record of flagrant, persistent violation of the law, and at last, after multiplied warnings, God closed the testing of man by law in judgment: first Israel, and then Judah, were driven out of the land into a dispersion which still continues. A feeble remnant returned under Ezra and Nehemiah, of which, in due time, Christ came: "Born of a woman-made under the law." Both Jews and Gentiles conspired to crucify Him. (See Exod. 19:1-8; 2 Kings 17:1-18; 2 Kings 25: 1 -11; Acts 2:22-23; Acts 7:5152; Rom. 3:19-20; Rom. 10:5; Gal. 3: 10.)"

*Salvation Gospel in this dispensation:*

Obey God and keep His commandments.

Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth [is] Mine.


*6. Man under grace.*

"The sacrificial death of the Lord Jesus Christ introduced the dispensation of pure grace, which means undeserved favor, or God giving righteousness, instead of God requiring righteousness, as under law. Salvation, perfect and eternal, is now freely offered to Jew and Gentile upon the acknowledgment of sin, or repentance, with faith in Christ."

"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent" (John 6:29). "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (John 6:47). "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (John 5:24). "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish" (John 10:27-28). "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8-9).

The predicted result of this testing of man under grace is judgment upon an unbelieving world and an apostate church. (See Luke 17:26-30; Luke 18:8; 2 Thess. 2:7-12; Rev. 3:15-16.)

The first event in the closing of this dispensation will be the descent of the Lord from heaven, when sleeping saints will be raised and, together with believers then living, caught up "to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (I Thess. 4:16-17). Then follows the brief period called "the great tribulation." (See Jer. 30:5-7; Dan. 12:1; Zeph. 1:15-18; Matt. 24:21-22.)

Some teachers number the Tribulation as one of the dispensations, while combining the dispensations of Promise & Law. However, we see the Tribulation as a special period during which human civilization crumbles under the weight of the combined features of its ages long rejection of God. The Lord has limited this period to a short 7 years, to prevent man's self-destruction. 

After this the personal return of the Lord to the earth in power and great glory occurs, and the judgments which introduce the seventh, and last dispensation. (See Matt. 25:31-46 and Matt. 24:29- 30.)"

*Salvation Gospel in this dispensation:*

Confess Jesus as Lord and believe in His resurrection.

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.


*7. Man under the personal reign of Christ.*

"After the purifying judgments which attend the personal return of Christ to the earth, He will reign over restored Israel and over the earth for one thousand years. This is the period commonly called the millennium. The seat of His power will be Jerusalem, and the saints, including the saved of the dispensation of grace, namely the church, will be associated with Him in His glory. (See Isa. 2:1-4; Isa. 11; Acts 15:14-17; Rev. 19:11-21; Rev. 20:1-6.

But when Satan is "loosed a little season," he finds the natural heart as prone to evil as ever, and easily gathers the nations to battle against the Lord and His saints, and this last dispensation closes, like all the others, in judgment. The great white throne is set, the wicked dead are raised and finally judged, and then come the "new heaven and a new earth." Eternity is begun. (See Rev. 20:3,7-15; Rev. 21 and 22.)"


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## Guitarhero (Mar 19, 2010)

If I have to worry about whether I am the most perfect or I'll lose my salvation and be cast to hell, then I'd just plain give up.  I hope I make it to heaven in the end but I ultimately know that I do not own the keys to the gates.  I must strive to perfect this relationship between me and God daily and actually TRUST that He will take me with Him when I die.  If I don't believe there can be salvation, what on earth am I doing going to His church then?  That would be pointless.  

It comes down to this, belief or unbelief, taking a risk or not taking a risk of faith.  All around me, there are people clamoring for my supposed salvation with their understanding of the stipulations.  Yet, I don't look at them.  I look at myself and if, according to my understanding, I do not feel that the scriptures and God are real, then I'm doing myself a disservice by attempting to rationalize something that I am not rationalizing well.  So, I take small baby steps and choose to have the faith that, yes, it is true that I can go to heaven.  Am I there yet?  No.  Do I absolutely know I'll get there?  No.  What I do know is that if I persevere, then I can expect that God will honor His word.  

Life takes faith.   Sometimes, it's just as simple as taking just one step daily and focusing on that because the rest will come when it's due.  So much of the scriptural proof has been given.  So, what's left?  Either you believe it or you don't believe it. But that was the issue in the beginning before all the rationalization.  Not that rationalization and philosophizing and intellectualizing are wrong - no, they are not.  But faith is the inextricable component to belief in this judeo-christian God.  Aside from all the proofs, it comes down to if one believes and accepts as truth or not.


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## HoneyA (Mar 19, 2010)

CreoleNat said:


> If I have to worry about whether I am the most perfect or I'll lose my salvation and be cast to hell, then I'd just plain give up.  I hope I make it to heaven in the end but I ultimately know that I do not own the keys to the gates.  I must strive to perfect this relationship between me and God daily and actually TRUST that He will take me with Him when I die.  If I don't believe there can be salvation, what on earth am I doing going to His church then?  That would be pointless.
> 
> It comes down to this, belief or unbelief, taking a risk or not taking a risk of faith.  All around me, there are people clamoring for my supposed salvation with their understanding of the stipulations.  Yet, I don't look at them.  I look at myself and if, according to my understanding, I do not feel that the scriptures and God are real, then I'm doing myself a disservice by attempting to rationalize something that I am not rationalizing well.  So, I take small baby steps and choose to have the faith that, yes, it is true that I can go to heaven.  Am I there yet?  No.  Do I absolutely know I'll get there?  No.  What I do know is that if I persevere, then I can expect that God will honor His word.
> 
> Life takes faith.   Sometimes, it's just as simple as taking just one step daily and focusing on that because the rest will come when it's due.  So much of the scriptural proof has been given.  So, what's left?  Either you believe it or you don't believe it. But that was the issue in the beginning before all the rationalization.  Not that rationalization and philosophizing and intellectualizing are wrong - no, they are not.  But faith is the inextricable component to belief in this judeo-christian God.  Aside from all the proofs,* it comes down to if one believes and accepts as truth or not*.



I agree with your entire post. The last line is in fact it. No one knows what the absolute truth is. This is where a lot of people miss it.


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## CoilyFields (Mar 19, 2010)

PoohBear,

Im going to have to study these 7 dispensations before I comment on them.  But *Aviah *has summed up what seems to be your struggle...*salvation vs. fatih by works*

She has explained it so well , so I'll just add my two cents:

Your point: to truly be saved I must have faith plus works and this will equal a sinless life
(as usual correct me if im wrong girl)


We are not perfect in ourselves because we are christians. our righteousness has been imputed to us by Jesus

2 COr 5:21-For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him"

The wages of sin =death

in the old testament the way that people kept from reaping the wages of sin was to offer sacrifices (something had to die to take the punishment) their sins were imputed upon the animal

when Jesus came he died once and for all so that we would no longer have to pay the penalty for sin because HE paid it (the ultimate sacrifical lamb). This doesnt mean that we dont die...it means that eternal damnation is not our destiny if we sin.

Not because we (our flesh) is now perfect...but because Jeses has COVERED us with HIS perfection and righteousness. Now we have access to God through Him. While the enemy is accusing us before the throne of God, Jesus is interceding on our behalf (the accusations of the enemy are usually true-we do sin-but Jesus is asking God to forgive us becuase of HIS OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS-nothing we've earned (ie. not sinned so we DESERVE salvation)

Isaiah 43:25-I,even I, am He that blotteth out thy transgressions *for mine own sake*, and will not remember thy sins.

So we are not perfect in thought or deed in this world...though we are expected to be *blameless*...but thats the joy of salvation...we can't earn it or work our way into heaven...its free! But there are definately other rewards in heaven and on this earth for being blameless and having good works.

Does that explain a little? salvation is free and not based on living a sinfree life. 
Disclaimer: this does NOT give anyone liscence to go and live any kind of way...the bible has this premis about salvation and ALSO tells us how we need to LIVE Holy


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## Crown (Mar 19, 2010)

I don’t have time to read all the posts so I can’t agree or disagree.

*Don’t forget : salvation and sinfree are two different things.

*Concerning the dispensations, I’ve already seen this. It _seems_ good, but I have problems with dividing in 7 dispensations.
One of my problems : are those periods cumulative?

It can’t be cumulative.
But if so, this means we are still living in innocence…
If it is not cumulative, that means we are no more living in conscience…
We are still living in conscience.

Am I wrong?
Someone can explain, please?


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## Poohbear (Mar 19, 2010)

CoilyFields said:


> PoohBear,
> 
> Im going to have to study these 7 dispensations before I comment on them. But Aviah has summed up what seems to be your struggle...salvation vs. fatih by works
> 
> ...


No, that wasn't my point. I have said nothing about works. To me, works is like going to church, reading your Bible, evangelizing, etc. I didn't say we need those in order to have salvation. My point was having faith means putting your complete trust in Jesus Christ to save you FROM your sins. My point was a true Christian shouldn't be sinning all day every day until they die. A sinless life shows you are no longer under sin's control and that you are showing you love God and are obeying him. Nothing to do with works, sinless means doing no more sin. To me, committing sin, practicing, remaining in sin, living in sin, however you want to phrase it doesn't show you believe in Jesus dying for the punishment of your sins for real. But like I said earlier, I don't know anymore. I'm still confused. I'm just in a period of agnosticism right now.


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## Poohbear (Mar 19, 2010)

Crown said:


> I don’t have time to read all the posts so I can’t agree or disagree.
> 
> *Don’t forget : salvation and sinfree are two different things.
> 
> ...


Hmmm, I didn't think about whether these periods could be cumulative.

My friend told me we are in the 6th dispensation of "Man under Grace". Jesus fulfilled the Law so we are no longer in the "Man under Law" dispensation, even though some Christians still live by the Law and are advocates of the Law.

But like you said, I would think we are still living in the "Man under Conscience" dispensation too.

And I also wonder about this... why does God put us through all these dispensations just to get mad, judge, and destroy people in the end?

While these dispensations make sense of how the Bible is structured, I just wonder how to apply these dispensations to present day.


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## makeupgirl (Mar 19, 2010)

Crown said:


> I don’t have time to read all the posts so I can’t agree or disagree.
> 
> *Don’t forget : salvation and sinfree are two different things.
> 
> ...


 
We are in the dispensation of grace.  My pastor always said that the next step on God's agenda is to take his church home.


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## Crown (Mar 19, 2010)

makeupgirl said:


> We are in the dispensation of grace.  My pastor always said that the next step on God's agenda is to take his church home.



I know we are under the grace, thank you.
I was asking about the 7 dispensations. Just because we are living in the grace of salvation does not mean we don't have a conscience. Can we agree?
Why separate an age of conscience?


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## Aviah (Mar 19, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Thanks Aviah for your responses. I appreciate your time.
> 
> So salvation is saved from Hell, not saved from committing sin, correct?
> 
> ...



Love, 
The bible says work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. You have to work it out, but not in the absence of God. You cannot always take what everyone says, but God. This is not to say that no one has the true Christian truth but you, but at the end of the day all you can do is your best in Christ. I honestly don't think the God that I know will condemn you for following Him under some mistaken precepts. Again its about the intent of your heart being to live for him and serve him. A natural outworking of growing love for him, you know? Take it slow, take it one question at a time. Your brain sounds like mine sometimes and it can drive me up the wall. I haven't looked at the diagrams and stuff properly, and from what I get at first glance, even if there are these seven phases, all scripture is fitting for understanding, but of course, in context. 
I wanted to thank you PB, it made me examine my walk with God more carefully. I'll have to take a look at what you posted more carefully at another time.


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## deesquest (Mar 20, 2010)

Wow! What can I add to this thread? Well I also ventured into the other thread out of curiosity--I found what I thought I would. There are people who have believed in God and been hurt by church people and that turned them off. Then their are others who just can't really believe all this God, Jesus, and Bible stuff is real. It's not logical or rational. Unbelievers have existed down through the ages and there will always be unbelievers until the end of time. Some you may win to Christ, others are like casting pearls before swine. The Bible does say to shake the dust off your feet with some people. All the love of God and concern and love from a Christian will not change that. Some people will go to hell. Not all can be won. It is sad, but true. We can only witness to souls as long as God permits and they will listen. The Holy Spirit can work were we can't. 

Salvation really is a simple work of faith. Men have made it complicated because of the many religions they have started. When the apostles began to preach the gospel it was one message, one faith, and one Lord. Now there are thousands of messages, thousands of faiths, and many Lords. When Jesus chose his disciples, they were common men who he called to be saved. But they were not filled with the Holy Ghost because they lacked power to do the complete will of God. They were still carnal. We are aware of their carnal actions. They forsook Jesus during the crucifixion, but after the resurrection they were restored, or saved. Jesus told them to wait for him in Jerusalem for the filling of the Holy Ghost; it was here they received power from God and were changed men.  Salvation is the first work of faith. It is a repentance/forsaking of sin-not going back to sinful ways. Sanctification is the second work of faith. It is here that we are set apart and given the Holy Spirit to be able to live a holy and sinfree life. Salvation is God with you, sanctification is God living in you and giving you power to say no to sin and live holy and righteous.  Why did we need Jesus to come and die for our sins if we are going to continue kneeling at the altar/bedside and confessing our sin but not repenting? The Old Testament law required sacrifice that pushed sin ahead one year. Every year the Jews did this until the coming of Christ. He came to do away with this-He was the perfect sacrifice so that we need not continue bringing lambs and goats. He died once for sin and so should we die; die to sin.

Can we know if we sin? yes. Can we know we please God? yes. Can we say no to sin every time? yes.  

The question isn't really can you not sin, the question is do you want to stop sinning. There are many sins that if people are honest they don't want to give up. We know that God gives the Holy Ghost and it is power. Power to do what? 

A powerful Christian life is a life in which we are not like sinners. We are different, we should be different. That doesn't mean we a better, we are just saved sons and daughters of God. We should point the way to a different life, a better life; not a life mixed with sin that we try to explain away to the non-believer. We are in the world, but not of the world. If we do as the world are we not  of the world? Can we honestly and confidently tell a sinner, "I lied, but God will forgive me because he knows my heart, but you're condemned because you haven't accepted Jesus in your heart? Huh!? Really now. If you're counting on confessing and repenting of that sin later, what happens if you don't get a chance to repent? But did you really repent or confess? If you're doing the same thing over you confessed-you didn't repent. Are we as Christians living all we know in the word of God or are we living what preacher or pastor said even though we know that's not what the Bible or spirit of God says? Also are we living the way WE THINK is right instead of living the word? God is more exacting than we'd like to believe. Read it for yourself. He doesn't accept sloppy living, but he counts every jot and every tittle. Does God really know whats in your heart? Yes he does. And when we break his laws and commandments he sure does know what is in our heart. If someone says they love you but are continually unfaithful, do you believe them? No you don't. Their actions tell you they don't love you-they love themselves. Why do we think God understands  unfaithfulness to him when we fornicate(sin) with the devil?  What does it mean to be Christ-like if we have the devil popping up in our life? 

I know this is all over the place, but these are serious thoughts that were on my heart and mind. My desire isn't to hurt, but help us to truly think what it means to be saved and Christian. We all want to make it to heaven and must be honest with ourselves. Sometimes we have to take a long hard look at our walk with Christ and examine to see if we are in the faith and not just living what the preacher says or our "church" says, but what the word says. Does your life mirror the word of God? Honesty and faith are the beginning.


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## Poohbear (Mar 20, 2010)

My thoughts exactly at what Deesquest just said.

That's why I feel like I am not a true Christian because I am still "dippin' and dabbin'" in sin. I have posted stuff in the Atheist thread because that's how I really feel. There are several messages given by Christian churches and it's ridiculous. It turns me off from Christianity as a whole. I feel like you're either 100% non-Christian or 100% Christian. There's no lukewarmness or partial-heartedness, or being in-between. Being in-between is against God. I may not be committing the terrible sins that people think of, but it is still sin, against God. I'm not keeping His commandments when I sin. How can I truly say I love Jesus when I am doing the very sins that he took the punishment for on the cross?

And Deesquest gave a good example about an unfaithful partner. If your partner is unfaithful to you and has sex with someone else other than you, you are going to feel betrayed and you will not feel loved. You will dump him. Some people forgive but most women will dump a cheating spouse. 

Look how God has destroyed people for their wickedness and backsliding and sins throughout the Bible? Just think if these dispensations have some validity to them, wouldn't you think he will destroy you for the sins you continually do every now and then? Bringing Jesus to this world was God's way to show us how to live the way God wants us to live. Jesus was God made in the flesh. God tried giving us this Law but saw that we couldn't be saved by just merely keeping the Laws. So He gave us Jesus as our Lord and Savior to be dead to sin and alive in Him.


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## southernstyle (Mar 20, 2010)

Wow,  this thread has been real food for thought, and I appreciate all of the views expressed here.  I'd just like to add my thoughts. 
I've been taught (and believe) that when Christ came to redeem man, He redeemed our spirits, that part of us that His Spirit communes with.  For those of us who've accepted Him as Lord and Savior, we take it on faith that this is a done deal which has been done by Him. He did not come to redeem our flesh and so for me what that means is that on this side of heaven, my flesh will always be fallen no matter what.  Even if I never sin (which aint gonna happen because fallen flesh can't help it, even mere thoughts that I cannot control are sometimes sinful) it doesn't matter because this fallen flesh can never be right with God; however, our transformed bodies will be.
I think that for those of us who after accepting Christ who then willfully engage is sin, while I don't condone it, I see it as a process, one that will take all of this lifetime.  I see our journey spirtually paralleled to our natural journey from infancy to old-age. 
Poohbear, I'm sorry to single you out, but I am.  You are so very young, and just to see your dedication and questioning of these issues at your young age is refreshing.  I think that in and of itself speaks to your profound love for God.  
While the work of redeeming our spirits is an instaneous miracle done at the time we accept Christ into our hearts, the living out of that reality is done over a lifetime for each of us. Only God can know what is going on with each of us individually in that part of each of us where He lives. Even Paul had these struggles, and he speaks to them.
Sorry for rambling, I'm finished now.


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## Poohbear (Mar 20, 2010)

southernstyle said:


> Wow, this thread has been real food for thought, and I appreciate all of the views expressed here. I'd just like to add my thoughts.
> I've been taught (and believe) that when Christ came to redeem man, He redeemed our spirits, that part of us that His Spirit communes with. For those of us who've accepted Him as Lord and Savior, we take it on faith that this is a done deal which has been done by Him. He did not come to redeem our flesh and so for me what that means is that on this side of heaven, my flesh will always be fallen no matter what. Even if I never sin (which aint gonna happen because fallen flesh can't help it, even mere thoughts that I cannot control are sometimes sinful) it doesn't matter because this fallen flesh can never be right with God; however, our transformed bodies will be.
> I think that for those of us who after accepting Christ who then willfully engage is sin, while I don't condone it, I see it as a process, one that will take all of this lifetime. I see our journey spirtually paralleled to our natural journey from infancy to old-age.
> Poohbear, I'm sorry to single you out, but I am. You are so very young, and just to see your dedication and questioning of these issues at your young age is refreshing. I think that in and of itself speaks to your profound love for God.
> ...


 
I have no problem with being singled out. I am not ashamed. 

I also wanted to point out what the Bible says about Jesus Christ redeeming us:

*Titus 2 (KJV)*
*11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, *
*12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; *
*13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; *
*14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. *
*15These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.*

The Bible wasn't specific about whether or not he redeemed our flesh but he clearly says that He redeemed us from all iniquity (lawlessness, sin, etc.) and purify unto Himself a peculiar (special) people. Before going to that verse, the scripture tells us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts in this present world...it does NOT say "you might not be able to deny all ungodliness and worldly lusts because of your fleshly nature in this present world". The scriptures give no excuse for our sinful fleshly nature of Adam.


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## Guitarhero (Mar 20, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> I have no problem with being singled out. I am not ashamed.
> 
> I also wanted to point out what the Bible says about Jesus Christ redeeming us:
> .



Believe me, you weren't being singled out.  As she said, there are so many faiths and that faith itself is the crux of it all - what we should have.  Confusion is everywhere, not just with you, Poohbear.  There are many people who think that others are unsaved and vice versa.  There are so many who think their way and interpretation of scripture is the only way.  There are so many who nitpick over this and that.  If we truly look at the world of faith, all of us are ALL OVER THE PLACE   Belief in God as He revealed Himself is the first key.  I think He's big enough to carry all us through life to where we need to be.  Don't sweat it, mami.  See, your heart is a lot deeper for God than many people would ever realize or admit.  Sometimes, step one - belief in Him - that's where we have to start.  This message is for so many lurkers and not directed at anyone in particular.


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## makeupgirl (Mar 20, 2010)

Crown said:


> *I know we are under the grace, thank you.*
> I was asking about the 7 dispensations. Just because we are living in the grace of salvation does not mean we don't have a conscience. Can we agree?
> Why separate an age of conscience?


 
Your response in the bold could have been a little nicer. But, I'm sorry if I misunderstood, I must have misread it but nevertheless, I don't know what you know, but now I do know that you know that we are under grace.  No hard feelings. 

We can definitely agree, in fact I agree with you 100%.  In fact, According to this article I found online, http://www.gracenotes.info/topics/dispensations.html, it not only breaks down the dispensations but also explains the purpose of each dispensation.  It also says that the dispensations are in fact cumulative.    However, even though we are under the dispensation of grace, we as Christians no longer live under the OT in which innocence - law is under, however that doesn't mean we should disregard it.  We were brought into conscience because of Adam's sin but praise be to God that we are now under grace, that everything has gotten to this particular dispensation.  Why the separate age of conscience?  I'm going to have to research that a little because I believe there is more to this.  Interesting question.


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## Aviah (Mar 20, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> I have no problem with being singled out. I am not ashamed.
> 
> I also wanted to point out what the Bible says about Jesus Christ redeeming us:
> 
> ...



Very true. Still its something we contend with. To be honest, the perfection that you say we should have is a life long ambition IMHO. Strive for it, at all times. I don't think because you don't always hit the mark doesn't mean you're not saved. Interesting food for thought in addition to what Deequest said. I'm coming to the conclusion that in the midst of our faith of salvation, our love for God bears works that are reflective of Him. Therefore the deeper the love, the greater the obedience, the closer in intimacy, the easier to die to sin. At the end of the day we cannot change the past, but this has definitely encouraged me to be more diligent, while finding the balance between seeking to just cease from sin in my life, and actually loving and coming into deeper communion with God. All we can do is our best, and all things are possible through Christ right?

ETA I just read the dispensations article, and it mentions something I had forgotten, that God has given us the *gift* of righteousness. Which does relate baxk to my original points about us not being able to be righteous on our own, but to "give it our best shot"....
Let me tinker over this some more...

PB is this thread helping in any way?


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## Guitarhero (Mar 21, 2010)

Yet another sermon on sin today!!!  Essence of the homily?  The adulteress caught and the Pharisees attempting to trap Jesus.  The message?  We are to confess our sins and then we are to try perfection.  The reason God tells us to confess is that He already knows we are imperfect men.  There is no excuse not to TRY.  This doesn't mean that we cannot achieve  perfection, but God knows so much more about us than we do.  He realizes we are going to fall into error throughout life and provides for it.  That's why we are to continue to strive for perfection. 

How many times to fall?  How many times to get up?  How many times to learn not to fall?  That depends upon the spiritual fortitude of the person, his comprehension, his willingness to progress spiritually and his environment.  As much as we sin, there is forgiveness awaiting us.   Being careless and not guarding the heart is also sin.  God is so far ahead of us that when He tells us to confess our sins and strive for perfection, he also tells us not to judge the lives of others unless we face the same judgements we mete out.  Fear of sinfulness and perfecting of ourselves is greatly balanced by equal fear of hypocrisy.   He want us to be balanced.  Such a great message today!  Still praying for you Poohbear.  He is right beside you, my sister and He knows your heart.


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## Bubblingbrownshuga (Mar 21, 2010)

MoMo said:


> The beauty of Christianity is *your* personal relationship with GOD and belief that he gave his son Jesus Christ to die for our sins. We are to fellowship with others who believe as we do and testify to those that do not. My relationship with GOD has absolutely no bearing on what the next "Christian" is doing. It is truly an intimate and personal relationship that I share with HIM.
> 
> I completely understand your feelings about "Christians" right now and agree with you about the hypocrisy of it all. However, we will be judged on our actions and it all comes down to the choices we make exercising free will.


 

I really needed this post. Thanks so much. It's so easy to get wrapped up in what others are doing wrong especially if they're wearing the Christian title to where you're like, 'whatever with this Christian walk! I am done! but this is why you should look to Jesus as your example and not falliable human beings.

I can truely say that out of my 30 years as a Christian, I have encountered about 10 that were for real in my eyes. They encourage me, but if they do fall (I pray they don't) I ask for the strength to not waiver in my beliefs. It's so easy to do.


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## CoilyFields (Mar 22, 2010)

So if we can achieve prefection in THIS body...why would we need NEW transformed bodies when Jesus comes back?


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## MA2010 (Mar 22, 2010)

MoMo said:


> The beauty of Christianity is *your* personal relationship with GOD and belief that he gave his son Jesus Christ to die for our sins.  We are to fellowship with others who believe as we do and testify to those that do not.  My relationship with GOD has absolutely no bearing on what the next "Christian" is doing.  It is truly an intimate and personal relationship that I share with HIM.
> 
> I completely understand your feelings about "Christians" right now and agree with you about the hypocrisy of it all.  *However, we will be judged on our actions and it all comes down to the choices we make exercising free will*.



I had to quote you to THANK YOU again!!! It all boils down to the bold statement.


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## makeupgirl (Mar 22, 2010)

CoilyFields said:


> So if we can achieve prefection in THIS body...why would we need NEW transformed bodies when Jesus comes back?


 
Basically because even though we have been redeemed by Jesus' blood, our bodies are still corruptable because of sin.   

1 Cor 15:35-54

vs. 35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with waht body do they come
vs. 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die
vs. 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain
vs. 38 But God giveth a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body
vs. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh; but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of bird
vs. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another
vs. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory
vs. 42 So also is the ressurrection of the dead.  It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption
vs. 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power
vs. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is a spiritual body
vs. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit
vs. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual
vs. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven
vs. 48 As it is the earthly, such are they also that are earthly; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
vs. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly
vs. 50 Now that I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
vs. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
vs. 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptable, and we shall be changed.
vs. 53 For this corruptable must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality
vs. 54 So when this corruptable shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written. Death is swallowed up in victory.

These verses explain it better than I ever could.  I hope this helps.


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## Poohbear (Mar 22, 2010)

I'm surprised that some of you agreed with deesquest...she is saying that a true Christian says no to sin EVERY TIME! She is saying a true Christian is no longer a sinner...they no longer commit sin once they are saved!!!


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## Crown (Mar 22, 2010)

makeupgirl said:


> *Your response in the bold could have been a little nicer*. But, I'm sorry if I misunderstood, I must have misread it but nevertheless, I don't know what you know, but now I do know that you know that we are under grace.  No hard feelings.
> 
> We can definitely agree, in fact I agree with you 100%.  In fact, According to this article I found online, http://www.gracenotes.info/topics/dispensations.html, it not only breaks down the dispensations but also explains the purpose of each dispensation.  It also says that the dispensations are in fact cumulative.    However, even though we are under the dispensation of grace, we as Christians no longer live under the OT in which innocence - law is under, however that doesn't mean we should disregard it.  We were brought into conscience because of Adam's sin but praise be to God that we are now under grace, that everything has gotten to this particular dispensation.  Why the separate age of conscience?  I'm going to have to research that a little because I believe there is more to this.  Interesting question.



I said thank you and you want me to be nicer ?
Let me see :  for you !

By the way, makeupgirl, I don’t know 1 Christian who does not know that we are under the grace.

Thanks for the link, I will consider it later.


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## Crown (Mar 22, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> I'm surprised that some of you agreed with deesquest...she is saying that a true Christian says no to sin EVERY TIME! She is saying a true Christian is no longer a sinner...they no longer commit sin once they are saved!!!



About sin, this is why it is important to make a distinction between sinner and sin. We all were sinners before coming to Christ. But with Christ we are no more sinners, but it happens that a Christian sins. However, I don’t use my righteousness through Christ as an excuse to sin.

I think a Christian saying I don’t sin is deceiving himself *or* is at the pre final step (the final step is the complete glorification) and forget the previous steps. In this case, be careful to not discourage the babies in the faith.
In saying a Christian does not sin, a baby in the faith will think : I do sin, then I am not really a Christian, what is wrong with me? Why continue?
Be careful! We should be an encouragement for others, not the contrary.

It’s not magic people of God, it’s a process.
If I have a child at university and one new born and one in middle or high school, can I expect the same attitude from all of them? NO. But, they are all my children and I love them and know what I want for them.

Like an artisan, the work has to be done. Can you see the beauty of a precious metal just after you have it in your hands from the nature?

Mat. 6.9 … Our Father which art in heaven,
6.12 … forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

Have regular quality just You and me time with God and His Word, believe Him revealed in Jesus-Christ and let Him transform you by His Holy Spirit, from glory to glory.


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## Poohbear (Mar 22, 2010)

Crown said:


> About sin, this is why it is important to make a distinction between sinner and sin. We all were sinners before coming to Christ. But with Christ we are no more sinners, but it happens that a Christian sins. However, I don’t use my righteousness through Christ as an excuse to sin.
> 
> I think a Christian saying I don’t sin is deceiving himself *or* is at the pre final step (the final step is the complete glorification) and forget the previous steps. In this case, be careful to not discourage the babies in the faith.
> In saying a Christian does not sin, a baby in the faith will think : I do sin, then I am not really a Christian, what is wrong with me? Why continue?
> ...


I understand what you are saying...what you have said is what I have been taught for years...but Deesquest is actually saying a true Christian no longer commits sin. She is saying something different than everyone else has expressed. 

And how can you (not you personally but Christians in general) say we aren't using our righteousness through Christ as an excuse to sin? If we're righteous with Christ, why are we still sinning?

It's really hard to get across what I'm trying to say.  A sinner commits sin. If you commit a sin, you are a sinner. It just doesn't sound right anymore for someone to claim to be either a Christian sinner or a righteous Christian that commits sins.


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## Guitarhero (Mar 22, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> I understand what you are saying...what you have said is what I have been taught for years...but Deesquest is actually saying a true Christian no longer commits sin. She is saying something different than everyone else has expressed.
> 
> And how can you (not you personally but Christians in general) say we aren't using our righteousness through Christ as an excuse to sin? If we're righteous with Christ, why are we still sinning?
> 
> *It's really hard to get across what I'm trying to say*.  A sinner commits sin. If you commit a sin, you are a sinner. It just doesn't sound right anymore for someone to claim to be either a Christian sinner or a righteous Christian that commits sins.



No, it's not with me because I understood.  Many of us got it with your first post  Humans are fallible beings.  Either you are going to believe that or not. Mercy is the issue that needs to be understood regarding sin, forgiveness and salvation.  We're all not going to be on the same page, though.


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## Poohbear (Mar 22, 2010)

makeupgirl said:


> Basically because even though we have been redeemed by Jesus' blood, our bodies are still corruptable because of sin.
> 
> 1 Cor 15:35-54
> 
> ...


Hey makeupgirl,

I read these verses and do not see how this scripture is saying that our bodies are still corruptable because of sin.  The verses are actually saying we were sown in corruption, in other words, we started out as corruptable.  These verses aren't advocating that we stay in this state of courruption. This scripture is actually saying to be raised in glory and in power.  Verse 53 even tells us to put on incorruption, which means to be morally upright.

But again, I could be wrong...I don't know.


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## makeupgirl (Mar 22, 2010)

Crown said:


> I said thank you and you want me to be nicer ?
> Let me see :  for you !
> 
> By the way, makeupgirl, I don’t know 1 Christian who does not know that we are under the grace.
> ...


 
No prob.  I probably just interpret it wrong.  But you be surprised that some Christians don't know we under the grace dispensation, there are even some that don't believe in the rapture.


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## Poohbear (Mar 22, 2010)

CreoleNat said:


> No, it's not with me because I understood. Many of us got it with your first post Humans are fallible beings. Either you are going to believe that or not. Mercy is the issue that needs to be understood regarding sin, forgiveness and salvation. We're all not going to be on the same page, though.


I understand God's mercy, grace, and forgiveness... but shouldn't it be a one time thing?

For example, are you all saying that God is like Winston Bennett's wife?  Winston Bennett has cheated on his wife with over 45 women per month. She decided to stay with this cheating man and has gone through much pain. She contracted two STDs from him over the 20+ years of their marriage.  And guess what he says, if she cheated on him, he's gone. There's other fish in the sea.

Does Winston Bennett really love his wife if he is continually unfaithful to her?  Aren't we being like Winston Bennett to God if we just continue to sin (whether it's the same sin or different sins) throughout our lifetime and claim to love Him at the same time?

I know most of y'all would not stay with a man like Winston Bennett, but yet, we expect God to be there for us when we continue to not keep his commandments and dip and dab in Satan's territory of sin every now and then...


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## makeupgirl (Mar 22, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Hey makeupgirl,
> 
> I read these verses and do not see how this scripture is saying that our bodies are still corruptable because of sin. The verses are actually saying we were sown in corruption, in other words, we started out as corruptable. These verses aren't advocating that we stay in this state of courruption. This scripture is actually saying to be raised in glory and in power. Verse 53 even tells us to put on incorruption, which means to be morally upright.
> 
> ...


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## Guitarhero (Mar 22, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> I understand God's mercy, grace, and forgiveness... but shouldn't it be a one time thing?
> 
> For example, are you all saying that God is like Winston Bennett's wife?  Winston Bennett has cheated on his wife with over 45 women per month. She decided to stay with this cheating man and has gone through much pain. She contracted two STDs from him over the 20+ years of their marriage.  And guess what he says, if she cheated on him, he's gone. There's other fish in the sea.
> 
> ...




No, I'm saying that the very nature of God and the mercy He offers is unlike any human being.  Of course, we are to strive for perfection.  Reality is, we aren't going to be perfect.  Even the apostles sinned after meeting Jesus.  Were 't they still his friends???? Peter?  Nope, God ain't nothing like Bennett.  He's on a whole nutha level.  You truly need to get away from all people and ask this directly to God and keep on asking Him and actually listening to His response.  I think that with every explanation, you are grasping at so many other things to add to the conversation that the initial question is not satisfied. I'd stop listening to humans and go quietly into meditation and just wait on Him.  I've had to do it many times in life when all the voices around me were leading me into a variety of directions.

BTW, can I ask some questions but not expect you to answer them all in public?  Do you consider yourself God's friend?  His child?  When was the last time you sinned? Any kind of sin.  Have you repented of it?  Was it a sin that you might have committed before, even years before?  Do you have any addictive sins?  Do you seek God in prayer?  Do you believe in Him?  Do you believe He forgives you when you sin?  Only when you sin once in an area? Do you keep coming back to Him?


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## Crown (Mar 22, 2010)

makeupgirl said:


> No prob.  I probably just interpret it wrong.  But you be surprised that some Christians don't know we under the grace dispensation, there are even some that don't believe in the rapture.



You can observe that I did not say dispensation. The Christianity is divided and sub divided because of human doctrines. But I think all Christians agree with this : we are under the grace.

 We have been taught of so many doctrines. We strongly believe in what we have been taught and instantly think that my belief is true and yours is wrong, but is it the truth? Where is the truth? My parents? Husband or Wife? Pastor? Best friend? The Bible study of * denomination?… The truth is in the Bible and the Holy Spirit is still His inspiration.
With the actual technology, there is no more excuse to have a better view of the Bible, we are living in the time where knowledge is increased.
 Dan. 12.4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the  book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and  knowledge shall be increased.  

 Like the Word :
 Act. 17.11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and *searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so*.
 1Thes. 5.21 *Prove all things; hold fast that which is good*.


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## makeupgirl (Mar 22, 2010)

Crown said:


> You can observe that I did not say dispensation. The Christianity is divided and sub divided because of human doctrines. But I think all Christians agree with this : we are under the grace.
> 
> We have been taught of so many doctrines. We strongly believe in what we have been taught and instantly think that my belief is true and yours is wrong, but is it the truth? Where is the truth? My parents? Husband or Wife? Pastor? Best friend? The Bible study of * denomination?… The truth is in the Bible and the Holy Spirit is still His inspiration.
> *With the actual technology, there is no more excuse to have a better view of the Bible, we are living in the time where knowledge is increased.*
> ...


 
ITA, you're absolutely right about this.


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## Renovating (Mar 22, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> I understand God's mercy, grace, and forgiveness... but shouldn't it be a one time thing?
> 
> *For example, are you all saying that God is like Winston Bennett's wife?* Winston Bennett has cheated on his wife with over 45 women per month. She decided to stay with this cheating man and has gone through much pain. She contracted two STDs from him over the 20+ years of their marriage. And guess what he says, if she cheated on him, he's gone. There's other fish in the sea.
> 
> ...


 
No, I think the bottomline is that we can't pinpoint God's grace and mercy down to an exact science. Only He knows when he will decide to show mercy and let grace abound.


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## CoilyFields (Mar 22, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> *I understand God's mercy, grace, and forgiveness... but shouldn't it be a one time thing?*
> 
> For example, are you all saying that God is like Winston Bennett's wife?  Winston Bennett has cheated on his wife with over 45 women per month. She decided to stay with this cheating man and has gone through much pain. She contracted two STDs from him over the 20+ years of their marriage.  And guess what he says, if she cheated on him, he's gone. There's other fish in the sea.
> 
> ...



Forgiveness is not a one time thing.  God requires that we forgive our brother/sister 70x7 for sinning against us. If God requires us to forgive them then why would he not forgive us more than once...after we have accepted him as savior?  His instructions on forgiveness show us that we will NEED to forgive our fellow Christians...meaning they WILL sin against us and hence God.  He also tells us that in order for him to forgive us we must forgive others...this is not an instruction that only applies pre-salvation.  There are also instructions about how to resolve conflict between church members (approaching, going to an elder, going to the church etc.) this automatically shows us that there will be conflict (sin) among the believers and there needs to be a way to resolve it to restore fellowship. Gods message is forgiveness with a focus on our eternal need for it from him.

Otherwise how do you reconcile Paul explaining how he does bad things sometimes even when he intends to do good. Or making sure that we DONT sin just because grace is abounding...meaning that we will be forgiven for our sins and we should not sin intentionally just because we CAN?

Also look to the old testament...as many times as Isreal sinned against God...He kept forgiving them and even sent his own son to die for them. Though they definately suffered consequences for their actions...he never forsook them as his chosen people.

If our making it to heaven depended on our own goodness...who among us would get there?


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## Poohbear (Mar 22, 2010)

CoilyFields said:


> Forgiveness is not a one time thing. God requires that we forgive our brother/sister 70x7 for sinning against us. If God requires us to forgive them then why would he not forgive us more than once...after we have accepted him as savior? His instructions on forgiveness show us that we will NEED to forgive our fellow Christians...meaning they WILL sin against us and hence God. He also tells us that in order for him to forgive us we must forgive others...this is not an instruction that only applies pre-salvation. There are also instructions about how to resolve conflict between church members (approaching, going to an elder, going to the church etc.) this automatically shows us that there will be conflict (sin) among the believers and there needs to be a way to resolve it to restore fellowship. Gods message is forgiveness with a focus on our eternal need for it from him.
> 
> Otherwise how do you reconcile Paul explaining how he does bad things sometimes even when he intends to do good. Or making sure that we DONT sin just because grace is abounding...meaning that we will be forgiven for our sins and we should not sin intentionally just because we CAN?
> 
> ...


I get what you're are saying, trust me...This is what I have been taught all my life... 

...But can you relate this to Winston Bennett's case? Let's say Winston is the Christian and his wife is God...  

Does Winston (the Christian) really love his wife (God) if he is continually being unfaithful in his marriage committment?  Should his wife (God) forgive Winston (the Christian) over and over when he has sex with over 45 other women a month? Or should his wife (God) just divorce Winston (the Christian) and realize that Winston (the Christian) really doesn't love her (God)?


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## CoilyFields (Mar 23, 2010)

Actually Winstons example is a good one to show the unfailing love of God. 

In the OT you will constantly see God equating his relationship to Isreal as a marriage. He chestizes them for "whoring" after other Gods...but CONSTANTLY accepts them back, keeping his promises to them and even giving his son DESPITE their sins.

Also, God tells us that he is MARRIED to the backslider...so those who consciously turn their backs on God and live in sin...he says that he will NOT forsake them...he's still there.

So God will never divorce us (if he did it would make him a liar because he said he hates divorce)

And his PERFECT love puts up with our constant infidelities. He knows our hearts and knows what our intentions are towards him (love him or not).  When he says to keep his commandments if we love him, its not because he doesnt know if we really do or not its to keep our actions lined up with the way we feel, and to keep us Holy and to demonstrate to others the love of God (We have all hurt someone we love...weather thats a parent, spouse, relative etc.).


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## Poohbear (Mar 23, 2010)

CoilyFields said:


> Actually Winstons example is a good one to show the unfailing love of God.
> 
> In the OT you will constantly see God equating his relationship to Isreal as a marriage. He chestizes them for "whoring" after other Gods...but CONSTANTLY accepts them back, keeping his promises to them and even giving his son DESPITE their sins.
> 
> ...


It is true that we've all hurt someone that we love. So are you saying that habitual sinners and people who sin every now and then are all going to heaven just for simply believing in God and saying we love God? Is that what you're saying? Isn't love a choice as well as an action? 

We don't necessarily have to live morally upright? We can just yield to our sinful nature anytime we want knowing that God is going to forgive us and love us anyway? That just doesn't sound right. Romans 6 says God forbid to the notion of "shall we sin so that grace may abound". 

And how do you know that God will never divorce us? If he hates divorce so much, why is it legal?

To me, it's sounding like you're saying anyone and everyone is going to heaven no matter what.  God loves everyone, whether they love Him or not. Is that what you're saying too?  That's not Christianity I don't think...that's what the New Age religion believes.


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## Aviah (Mar 23, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> I get what you're are saying, trust me...This is what I have been taught all my life...
> 
> ...But can you relate this to Winston Bennett's case? Let's say Winston is the Christian and his wife is God...
> 
> Does Winston (the Christian) really love his wife (God) if he is continually being unfaithful in his marriage committment?  Should his wife (God) forgive Winston (the Christian) over and over when he has sex with over 45 other women a month? Or should his wife (God) just divorce Winston (the Christian) and realize that Winston (the Christian) really doesn't love her (God)?



I can definitely see the analogy's point, still there are so many ways to "cheat" on God by sinning, and so many less ways to cheat on spouse, if you get what I mean? Nonetheless there are many ways to do your spouse wrong in a marriage, maybe that would be more comparable?
The difference between God and man and a married couple is that as humans we can only at best make educated guesses about the heart of our spouse, we can never absolutely know that they love us, we can only read the clues of it, the way they look at us, do things to help you, etc. The difference with God is that he knows us, better than we know ourselves, what will break us, what will buld us up, definitely. So before we even go to repent, God God KNOWS with certainty the entire cirumstance surrounding your choices. Not to say that they are excuses, but they are definitely factors in judgement. These scriptures below seem to suggest that the walk with God and growing up to resist sin is a process. 


*Colossians  4:12*
Epaphras, who is one of you and a servant of Christ Jesus, sends  greetings. He is always wrestling in prayer for you, that you may stand  firm in all the will of God, *mature* and fully assured.
Colossians  4:11-13 (in Context)  Colossians  4 (Whole Chapter) 
*Hebrews  5:14*
But solid food is for the *mature*, who by constant use have  trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.
Hebrews  5:13-14 (in Context)  Hebrews  5 (Whole Chapter) 
*James  1:4*
Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be *mature* and  complete, not lacking anything.
*2  Samuel 22:33*
It is God who arms me with strength    and makes my way *perfect*.
2  Samuel 22:32-34 (in Context)  2  Samuel 22 (Whole Chapter) 
*Psalm  19:7*
The law of the LORD is *perfect*,  reviving the soul.  The statutes  of the LORD are trustworthy,  making wise the simple.
Psalm  19:6-8 (in Context)  Psalm  19 (Whole Chapter) 
I think it is possible, that after working diligently to follow God that you are able to resist sin, much better than before, and by absolute faith possible to live sin free. I'm not sure if you fall short of completeing this mission if there's no forgiveness for you.

*Romans 6*

*Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ *

 1What shall we say, then? Shall  we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in  it any longer? 3Or don't  you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were  baptized into his death? 4We  were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order  that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the  Father, we too may live a new life.  5If we have been united with him like this in  his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his  resurrection. 6For we know  that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might  be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves  to sin— 7because anyone  who has died has been freed from sin. 
 8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we  will also live with him. 9For  we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die  again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for  all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 
 11In the same way, count  yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin  reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of  your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer  yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life;  and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness.  14For sin shall not be  your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
*Slaves  to Righteousness *

 15What  then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no  means! 16Don't you know  that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are  slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which  leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that,  though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form  of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18You have been set free from sin and have  become slaves to righteousness.  19I put this in human terms* because you are weak  in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your  body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now  offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness.* 20When you were slaves to sin,  you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from  the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been  set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap  leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift  of God is eternal life in[b] Christ Jesus our Lord.


The bolded really stands out to me as saying that we are slaves to righteousness leading to holiness (without sin). I do believe its a process. When you are a slave to something you are dedicated to it, you are ruled by it. The righteousness we have is not our own, but a gift, so we did not earn it, but now abide in it, live by it. We also do not take on a slave mentality overnightm, thus why we have to be transformed by the renewal of our minds( Mentioned in Romans). With the scriptures above talking about persevereance unto perfection, righteousness leading to holiness, understanding milk going on to understanding meat, its a process. In the end, only God can judge what will happen, and that much we must trust Him for, that by abiding in His Word, though we may (not have to, or that its excused) sin in the process, that the grace given is sufficient and that he sees our hearts. Just like when Jesus mentioned that the tax collector that beat on his chest say ing "God have mercy on me a sinner" went home justified over the Pharisee that was self-righteous. We in all our understanding only understand in part, and with that limited understanding alongside God are to walk as righteously as we can. We may think ourselves hell-bound because of sin after accepting Christ,  but it is ultimately his choice. Though Romans 6:2  poses an interesting point about living in sin any longer, much the way you talk about, however I think there may be a difference between living in sin and committing sin. I'll have to chew over that.


cont'd


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## Aviah (Mar 23, 2010)

ETA :Hebrews 3

 1Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess. 2He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God's house. 3Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself. 4For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything. 5Moses was faithful as a servant in all God's house, testifying to what would be said in the future. 6But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house. *And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast.*
Warning Against Unbelief
 7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
   "Today, if you hear his voice,
    8do not harden your hearts
   as you did in the rebellion,
      during the time of testing in the desert,
 9where your fathers tested and tried me
      and for forty years saw what I did.
 10That is why I was angry with that generation,
      and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
      and they have not known my ways.'
 11So I declared on oath in my anger,
      'They shall never enter my rest.' "[a]

 12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14*We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
   "Today, if you hear his voice,
      do not harden your hearts
   as you did in the rebellion."

 16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[c]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

In referring to the OT Hebrews rescued from slavery, when you look at them they consistently went back to idol worship- why? because they would lose faith in the true God. Thinking that he would abandon them or had left them. Had they held on in faith serving him they would have made it through to the promised land.

I really hope this makes sense? (my brain is getting mixed up here) The Hebrews 3 part was added to emphasize the faith part in our salvation, because its really needed. Its impossible to please God without faith, and we are saved by grace, through faith. With the works following suit (gradually).


I think its safe to say that we aspire to perfection (living completely sin free) and that it may be attainable. The question would therefore be is it required to enter heaven? Again, God is the judge.*


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## Crown (Mar 23, 2010)

Maybe I am wrong, but I  think you are confusing righteousness and total perfection.
Righteousness is instant, by  faith when you come to Jesus-Christ, it is not yours, it is through Him.
Perfection is a process and a  hope.

I did not read all the  posts, but sincerely, I don’t see a post saying what you are asking (and real Christians don't believe this or act like this) :



Poohbear said:


> We don't necessarily have to live morally upright? We can just yield to our sinful nature anytime we want knowing that God is going to forgive us and love us anyway?



If you really want to understand, I think you should now pray on this or continue to pray on this.

I am letting you with these, for meditation :

Phi. 3.12 *Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after*, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 
3.13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 
3.14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
3.15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 3.16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

Ja. 3.2 For *in many things we offend all*. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

Gal. 2.11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I* withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed*. 2.12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 2.13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

IJn. 2.1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye *sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous*: 2.2 And he is the propitiation *for our sins*: and not for our's only, *but also for the sins of the whole world.*


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## loolalooh (Mar 23, 2010)

This thread (particularly the latter half) was well-worth the read.


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## Poohbear (Mar 23, 2010)

Thanks Aviah, Crown, CreoleNat, and a few others for the scriptures and explanations.  I will relax on this issue with religion and beliefs before I lose my mind. I hope I can find peace with these feelings of being Agnostic and being a Christian. Take care.


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## Poohbear (Mar 23, 2010)

Crown said:


> *Maybe I am wrong, but I think you are confusing righteousness and total perfection.*
> Righteousness is instant, by faith when you come to Jesus-Christ, it is not yours, it is through Him.
> Perfection is a process and a hope.
> 
> I did not read all the posts, but sincerely, I don’t see a post saying what you are asking (and real Christians don't believe this or act like this) :


I think so too. Ever since being introduced to this Christian doctrine of sinless perfection, I started to think that righteousness and perfection were the same.

Now I see there are 3 main beliefs with Christianity... 1) Sinful/Lawless Christianity, 2) Sinless/Perfection Christianity, and 3) "Balanced" Christianity. #1 is just wrong...#2 is nearly impossible...#3 makes the most sense in the type of world we live in and with the type of people we are.


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## Aviah (Mar 24, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Thanks Aviah, Crown, CreoleNat, and a few others for the scriptures and explanations.  I will relax on this issue with religion and beliefs before I lose my mind. I hope I can find peace with these feelings of being Agnostic and being a Christian. Take care.



I'm not sure you can be Agnostic and Christian, but in any case, take you time, its a very important thing to understand. I pray that God settles your heart and shows you the truth, and that you abide in His peace, love and joy, remembering His grace is sufficient for you. Thanks again for expressing your thoughts, I genuinely hope all of this has helped.
Take Care x

Crown: Very well put! Thanks again for that clarification. It was a big help.


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## Crown (Mar 24, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Thanks Aviah, Crown, CreoleNat, and a few others for the scriptures and explanations.  I will relax on this issue with religion and beliefs before I lose my mind. I hope I can find peace with these feelings of being Agnostic and being a Christian. Take care.



Praise the Lord!

 You are not an Agnostic, Poohbear, you are a Christian, you are in the body of Jesus-Christ. Trust Him.
 Maybe you are actually renewing as an eagle. For you :

 Chorus
They that wait upon the Lord,
 Shall renew their strength; 
They shall mount up with wings like eagles. 
They shall run and not grow weary; 
They shall walk and not faint; 
Teach me, Lord;
 Teach me, Lord, to wait!

 1-
 Teach me, Lord,
 To wait down on my knees,
Till in your own good time,
 You answer my pleas; 
Teach me not to rely
 On what others do,
 But to wait in prayer
 For the answer from you.

 2-
 Teach me, Lord,
 To wait while hearts are aflame, 
Help me humble my pride
 And call on Your name;
Keep my faith renewed
 Keep my eyes on Thee,
Help me be on this earth what
 You want me to be.


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## Southernbella. (Mar 24, 2010)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> *The thing is that it is not your place to make others question their walks and their beliefs.  That is something that is deeply personal.*



I think this is a great discussion and I was just going to lurk, but this stuck out to me.

In all fairness, a couple of people in this thread got kudos for going into the thread in OT and doing this very thing.erplexed I might not agree with everything Poohbear has posted (although I do understand where she's coming from), but how is what she did any different than what other posters did in OT?


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## HoneyA (Mar 24, 2010)

Southernbella. said:


> I think this is a great discussion and I was just going to lurk, but this stuck out to me.
> 
> In all fairness, a couple of people in this thread got kudos for going into the thread in OT and doing this very thing.erplexed I might not agree with everything Poohbear has posted (although I do understand where she's coming from), but how is what she did any different than what other posters did in OT?



I wish I could thank you a 1000 times. This is one of the things that bothers me and feels off. It's almost like having too much pride or a false sense of superiority. I can't shake the feeling that there is something distinctly wrong (for lack of a better word) about that but to each his/her own. Live and let live.


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## discobiscuits (Mar 24, 2010)

Southernbella. said:


> I think this is a great discussion and I was just going to lurk, but this stuck out to me.
> 
> *In all fairness, a couple of people in this thread got kudos for going into the thread in OT and doing this very thing*.erplexed I might not agree with everything Poohbear has posted (although I do understand where she's coming from), *but how is what she did any different than what other posters did in OT?*



that's how christians get a bad rep. people behave hypocritically.  you are right.  


(disclaimer for all: the preceding statement talks about behavior not any specific person or group. the statement is not to be interpreted as christians or ppl in this forum are hypocrites)


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## Poohbear (Mar 24, 2010)

Southernbella. said:


> I think this is a great discussion and I was just going to lurk, but this stuck out to me.
> 
> In all fairness, a couple of people in this thread got kudos for going into the thread in OT and doing this very thing.erplexed I might not agree with everything Poohbear has posted (although I do understand where she's coming from), but how is what she did any different than what other posters did in OT?


 


HoneyA said:


> I wish I could thank you a 1000 times. This is one of the things that bothers me and feels off. It's almost like having too much pride or a false sense of superiority. I can't shake the feeling that there is something distinctly wrong (for lack of a better word) about that but to each his/her own. Live and let live.


 


discobiscuits said:


> that's how christians get a bad rep. people behave hypocritically. you are right.
> 
> 
> (disclaimer for all: the preceding statement talks about behavior not any specific person or group. the statement is not to be interpreted as christians or ppl in this forum are hypocrites)


I agree times three!!! 

I feel like it's always best to be true and real about your feelings, thoughts, questions, and concerns.


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## Poohbear (Mar 24, 2010)

What do you ladies think of these articles? These two articles I found have a lot to do what I have been talking about as well...

*Jesus Saves From Sin *
http://www.churchofgodeveninglight.com/tracts/jesussavesfromsin.htm

*Whatever Happened To Sin? *
http://knol.google.com/k/whatever-happened-to-sin#

*Can Men Live Holy In This Life?*
http://www.churchofgodcarmichael.org/weightofword/wofw4.html

*How Then Can A Man Be Justified With God?*
http://www.churchofgodcarmichael.org/weightofword/wofw14.html

*The Sliding-Board To Hell*
http://www.churchofgodcarmichael.org/weightofword/wofw16.html

*Understanding Romans 13:1-7 "being subject to governing authorities"*
http://romans13.embassyofheaven.com/understanding.htm


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## Ms Lala (Mar 24, 2010)

I am lurking in this thread.  Interesting discussion.  Poohbear you have regularly been in my prayers.  I feel like I know you,  I am a PK and feel like I understand where you are coming from.  I went through a similar situation about 10 years ago.  Seek and you will find, He will show Himself to you clearly in His word.  People get so afraid about questions being asked but I commend you for digging deeper.  God can handle questions.


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## loolalooh (Mar 24, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> What do you ladies think of these articles? These two articles I found have a lot to do what I have been talking about as well...
> 
> *Jesus Saves From Sin *
> http://www.churchofgodeveninglight.com/tracts/jesussavesfromsin.htm
> ...



Thanks for sharing.  I look forward to reading these articles this weekend.  After perusing the first one so far, I have to agree with this:

_* "If preachers teach people that they cannot live free from sin, they will never have faith to accept that they can, but will continue under bondage to the enemy of their souls and be lost forever. Just being sincere about a thing will not save the soul; but there must be an active, living faith of believing and receiving."*_

That's one thing I've picked up in my walk until recently ... that we "cannot live free from sin".  I'm not sure where I got it -- the Church, other believers, etc. but in reading the Scriptures concerning Paul/Saul and talking with others, I feel otherwise ... like we can stop sinning if I want to.  There's just no excuse, period.  

Before the sin, there's a thought process (in my case, at least).  It is in that thought process that you battle it out -- resist or accept this temptation. The closer you are to God ... the stronger you are in your walk ... the harder it is to accept the temptation.  To get closer to God, one has to absorb the Word daily.  Not weekly, or monthly, but daily.  To get stronger in one's walk, one has to be active about renewing the mind, guarding the heart, believing that they can actually stop sinning, etc.  It's like track practice -- you've gotta believe and put in the work constantly; miss a practice or two or second guess yourself and that's it.


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## Crown (Mar 25, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> What do you ladies think of these articles? These two articles I found have a lot to do what I have been talking about as well...
> 
> *Jesus Saves From Sin *
> http://www.churchofgodeveninglight.com/tracts/jesussavesfromsin.htm
> ...



I read a few lines in the first article.
For the record, I agree we can live free from sin. But I believe it is a process. This just does not happen like magic : the born again Christian has to grow up and acquire maturity. So, if someone sins, that does not mean he is not a Christian.

Keep in mind when some Christians speak about no sin, they are referring to the 10 commandments, and especially this:
Mark 10.19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

If so, I could say I don’t sin. But the NT is much more demanding than that, then I would not say I don’t sin, but I am not a sinner who is practising and laying in sin. I am the work of God in process and progress. Like someone said : be patient with me, God did not finish with me, but He will and I am obedient.

Just a few examples of sin (NT):

Mark 10.20 And *he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.* 10.21 *Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him,* *One thing thou lackest*: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. 10.22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

Mat. 5.21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of *old time, Thou shalt not kill*; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 5.22 *But I say unto you*, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mat. 5.27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of *old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery*: 5.28 *But I say unto you*, That *whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.*

Mat. 5.31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 5.32 *But I say unto you*, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Mat. 5.33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of *old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself*, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 5.34 *But I say unto you*, *Swear not at all*; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 5.35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 5.36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 5.37 But *let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.*

Mat. 5.38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 5.39 *But I say unto you*, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 5.40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. 5.41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 5.42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Mat. 5.43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 5.44 *But I say unto you*, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you

Rom. 14.23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for *whatsoever is not of faith is sin*.

Ja. 3.2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body… 3.6 And *the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity*: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. 3.7 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: 3.8 *But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison*. 3.9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. 3.10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. *My brethren, these things ought not so to be.*


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## Poohbear (Mar 25, 2010)

^^^
^^^
^^^
*Crown,*

About the scriptures you posted... are those sins that you feel will be hard for most Christians to turn away/refrain/repent from?

And I also wonder about Mark 10:20... Jesus says to sell everything we have and give it to the poor. If we don't do that, are we sinning? I know some people would call it a sin of omission, but I wonder if Jesus will really count this against us if we don't sell everything we have. And I wonder if he is talking in a physical sense or if it's a matter of the heart.


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## Crown (Mar 25, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> ^^^
> ^^^
> ^^^
> *Crown,*
> ...



I think it's personal : my challenge is not yours (general). If someone can look at these examples and others in the NT, evaluate himself and say : since I came to Christ, I did not sin, I would think you are denying. But If someone said : I am at a point in my walk where I don't sin anymore, I would say : Praise the Lord, you are such a testimony and I want to be where you are.

Concerning Mark 10: 20, again it's personal. Jesus looked at the heart of the young rich man and see although he observes all the commandments, this young man was attached with his possessions, in other words he loved his possessions more than God.


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## discobiscuits (Mar 25, 2010)

Crown said:


> I think it's personal : my challenge is not yours (general). If someone can look at these examples and others in the NT, evaluate himself and say : since I came to Christ, I did not sin, I would think you are denying. But If someone said : I am at a point in my walk where I don't sin anymore, I would say : Praise the Lord, you are such a testimony and I want to be where you are.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i was going to say pretty much the same thing re Mark 10:20. jesus was talking to that one individual not all believers. 

the subject of people taking scriptures (not you pooh but ppl in general) is one of my pet subjects. i see it so often.

ppl like to use Jer 29:11 "for I know the plans i have for you" and they take it personally when He was only talking to one person. now, does that does not mean that He does not have plans for us but as it relates to that particular passage, He was discussing specific plans for a specific person not all believers.

some ppl just don't get that you can't take every scripture and personalize it b/c not every scripture is meant for you, me or whomever. context, it is about context. 

back ot. crown is right. every person needs to examine himself


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## Poohbear (Mar 25, 2010)

discobiscuits said:


> i was going to say pretty much the same thing re Mark 10:20. jesus was talking to that one individual not all believers.
> 
> the subject of people taking scriptures (not you pooh but ppl in general) is one of my pet subjects. i see it so often.
> 
> ...


 
I have thought about that too (the notion of not every scripture is meant for everyone)...

If this is true, how do we discern what's for us individually and what's for everyone?

For instance, Jesus told Peter to forgive 70 x 7... was that meant just for Peter or meant for everyone? (this is *just* an example, I'm not implying we shouldn't forgive each other).


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## Helpmeblongagain (Mar 25, 2010)

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## discobiscuits (Mar 25, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> I have thought about that too (the notion of not every scripture is meant for everyone)...
> 
> If this is true, how do we discern what's for us individually and what's for everyone?
> 
> For instance, Jesus told Peter to forgive 70 x 7... was that meant just for Peter or meant for everyone? (this is *just* an example, I'm not implying we shouldn't forgive each other).



IMO simply from reading the scriptures in context and being able to see (not interpret) the difference between a specific event and god or jesus speaking to that event and using a specific person or a life lesson.

there is nothing in the bible that is _individually_ for any of us who are not specifically named in the bible. it is either for a specific individual written about or for all believers.

your example from Matthew 18 is a life lesson that jesus is teaching everyone from a general question that one person asked. read in context Matt 18:21-35, he answers the question then tells a parable and the last sentence is (paraphrased) "this is how God will treat each and every one of us if we don't forgive". so this is for all believers, not just one person. 

conversely the rich young ruler example from earlier was the instruction given to sell all his possessions was for that one person because his hang up was his attachment to the material possessions. yet even in that specific instructions for that person, there is a/are lesson/s for all believers; affix your heart on the wrong things and you will not gain the promise. love of or attachment to material wealth will keep you from god.


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## Mrsjohnson912 (Mar 26, 2010)

I am a christian. I have been saved, but I guess I just don;t know how to really form a relationship with God. When I read the bible, I either get kinda bored or I get so confused, so I stop reading. I don't neccesarily feel like I am a bad person, BUT I know I do gossip at times, I get irritated really easily by certain people, I cuss from time to time and I like to drink wine. Can someone please give me some advice & pray for me & my family?


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## Sharpened (Mar 26, 2010)

Mrsjohnson912 said:


> I am a christian. I have been saved, but I guess I just don;t know how to really form a relationship with God. When I read the bible, I either get kinda bored or I get so confused, so I stop reading. I don't neccesarily feel like I am a bad person, BUT I know I do gossip at times, I get irritated really easily by certain people, I cuss from time to time and I like to drink wine. Can someone please give me some advice & pray for me & my family?


There are times when you have to put the bible aside and simply pray...pray often, with or without words...pray in earnest until the tears comes...until you lose sleep or can't eat...until you get to the point when you break your own heart, your own will, so He can do His thing. For how long? Until He answers, even if it takes the rest of your life. That is the true meaning of humbling yourself. He deserves that much, no?

Those whom He has chosen agonize (agoni'zomai, Greek - to combat, to struggle) over their sins as His Spirit helps us overcome them. That is the key to true repentance. If we became perfect upon our baptism by His Fire, we would be dead. Why would He leave us here to be corrupted all over again?

My child's breathing treatment is done, so I bid you good night. Lord, bless the sincerity of those seeking the Pure, Living Water of Your Word, the Unleavened Bread of Your Knowledge and the Power of Your Spirit. For without Your sustenance, we would starve to death. Amen.


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## Guitarhero (Mar 26, 2010)

Mrsjohnson912 said:


> I am a christian. I have been saved, but I guess I just don;t know how to really form a relationship with God. When I read the bible, I either get kinda bored or I get so confused, so I stop reading. I don't neccesarily feel like I am a bad person, BUT I know I do gossip at times, I get irritated really easily by certain people, I cuss from time to time and I like to drink wine. Can someone please give me some advice & pray for me & my family?




Get into a bible study online and start a little each day.  Reading a lot and not comprehending is not as good as starting small and learning from it.  Tell God how you feel and praise His Name.  That is prayer. Do it your way, not anybody else's way unless you know set prayers like the Our Father or something like that.  

As far as sins, then confess them to Him. But I wouldn't consider drinking wine a sin.  I'm sure somebody here is grimacing with that but it's not founded to call it a sin.  What God doesn't want us to do is to get drunk.  So don't go overboard with the legalism and this/that sect and how they view it.  It will drive you crazy and confuse you.  First steps, baby steps.  :Rose:


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## Nefertiti0906 (Mar 26, 2010)

discobiscuits said:


> i was going to say pretty much the same thing re Mark 10:20. jesus was talking to that one individual not all believers.
> 
> the subject of people taking scriptures (not you pooh but ppl in general) is one of my pet subjects. i see it so often.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for posting this.  This is how I like to read the bible, I look at everything in context.


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## nathansgirl1908 (Mar 27, 2010)

Southernbella. said:


> I think this is a great discussion and I was just going to lurk, but this stuck out to me.
> 
> In all fairness, a couple of people in this thread got kudos for going into the thread in OT and doing this very thing.erplexed I might not agree with everything Poohbear has posted (although I do understand where she's coming from), but *how is what she did any different than what other posters did in OT*?





This question should be directed at the people who actually did that.  I have nothing to do with what those people did.


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