# Thoughts on abortion from a christian perspective!!



## Amour (Sep 1, 2006)

My initial thoughts are telling me that abortions will be outlawed my most christians!?! But was wondering whether there were any consensus' or even perhaps not to any exceptions - and how far do these exceptions extend to? for instance age, status, rape etc.

I look forward to hearing the responses/ views


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## PaperClip (Sep 1, 2006)

Somewhere in my thinking I'm thinking I heard/read somewhere that if there was a choice between the mother's and child's life, to save the mother's life.... Maybe I came across something like this when I did some reading of the Torah (God's teaching and instructions for Jews).


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## dreamer26 (Sep 2, 2006)

I am against abortion, but I use to think that if I were raped I would get an abortion or if the doctor's told me my child had a medical condition .

Until I met a little girl that sickle cell and she changed my life.  I was about 15 years old and this little girl was saved and was sick all the time and she eventually died at 7 years of age but my time with her was well spent.  She wouldn't allow you to see a little sick girl, she worshipped and praise God and she spoke with so much wisdom.  I mean if you heard her you would think she was a lot older than what she was.  She was an awesome little girl.  The day before she died, she told her mother you won't have to comb my hair anymore, but don't be sad I'm going on to be with Jesus.

Then I met a man with Cerebal Palsey, and God is using him in a powerful way. He goes across the country preaching and teaching. He doing things that doctors said he would never do. His life is not easy but it's worth it.

So I use to think there was a reason to take a life, but God has shown me if you comment anything to his hands he can take it and use it and bring himself glory and edify the person.  

If you've been raped he can use that child to bring restoration to others,
If you've been sexually abuised he can take it and make it a ministry

Because we live in such a messed up world, God has to used messed up situation to bring healing and hope.

So I say live on until God calls you home because he can take a mess and turn it into ministry.

jmo


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## jrae (Sep 2, 2006)

dreamer26 said:
			
		

> ...he can take a mess and turn it into ministry.


I agreed with everything you said especially the above.  

I have a problem with "playing God" and determining myself if someone should live or die... especially where innocent life is concerned.  Who am I to say that someone isn't perfect enough to live because they have a physical deformity?

Where rape, incest, and health of the mother are concerned, I have heard it said that abortion in those situations are like self-defense.  That sounds reasonable to me, but for me personally, I don't "think" I would sacrifice my baby.


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## Shimmie (Sep 2, 2006)

jrae said:
			
		

> I agreed with everything you said especially the above.
> 
> *I have a problem with "playing God" and determining myself if someone should live or die... especially where innocent life is concerned.* Who am I to say that someone isn't perfect enough to live because they have a physical deformity?
> 
> Where rape, incest, and health of the mother are concerned, I have heard it said that abortion in those situations are like self-defense. That sounds reasonable to me, *but for me personally, I don't "think" I would sacrifice my baby*.


 
I so agree with you and Dreamer. God defines a person's life, not us. 

With rape, I can't make a judgement call on this.  As are many Christians, I am not an advocate of abortion.  Each time I look at my son and daughter and my grandbabies, I hold on to the precious gift of their lives.  None were conceived by the heartbreak of rape.  

But even in rape, God can make something beautiful to come of it. 

One of the most beautiful women that I admire was conceived by rape.  Actress, Ethel Walters. 

Her Bio:   http://www.mhmin.org/FC/fc-1193EthelW.htm

Her defiance to live by her faith in God is noted here: 



> Back in New York, Waters was offered the role of housekeeper Bernice Sadie Brown in Carson McCullers' Member of the Wedding, but she turned it down, insisting that her character be rewritten to include "more religion."
> 
> The following year, she finally opened on Broadway in Member of the Wedding, her role at last rewritten to her specifications.
> 
> ...


 
Another person, is my father. My grandmother was raped, when she was 12 years old, by her sister's husband.  My father was born on her birthday. It was always a special celebration with them.  He was raised by her and the loving support of her mother and the entire family, even my great aunt.   (My great aunt's husband was not allowed to stay). 

My grandmother was blessed (years later) with a wonderful husband who loved my father as his own.  From the day he was born, my dad was always loved.    God had a wonderful plan........'me'.


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## Crackers Phinn (Sep 2, 2006)

Purely from a Christian standpoint -

I am pro-choice. I also worship God. I believe that the souls of the unborn return to the fathers kingdom. 

I am also the ultimate believer in free will. It's easy to be a good Christian if there are punishable man made laws to deter you from sinning. But when you are given easy access to sin and choose not to go that route -THEN you've made a statement about how right you are with God. So my stance  is that abortion is between the woman having it and God. I have no business involving myself in that relationship.


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## dicapr (Sep 2, 2006)

This is my first time posting in the christian forum although I read it often.  I just wanted to say that science today is reducing the number of women who would have to make this difficult choice.  With the approval of emergency contraception (sp?) as a over the counter option, those having accedental pregnancies will be reduced.  Most of abortions, hopefully, would be about the health of the mother and or her unboarn fetus.  I am pro-life, but believe that the decisicion to abort the pregnancy is between the mother and father and God.


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## PaperClip (Sep 2, 2006)

dicapr said:
			
		

> This is my first time posting in the christian forum although I read it often. I just wanted to say that science today is reducing the number of women who would have to make this difficult choice. With the approval of emergency contraception (sp?) as a over the counter option, those having accedental pregnancies will be reduced. Most of abortions, hopefully, would be about the health of the mother and or her unboarn fetus. *I am pro-life, but believe that the decisicion to abort the pregnancy is between the mother and father and God.*


 
I agree, in particular with the bold part.... Except in the case of rape/forced sex, there are are options to prevent the sperm and egg from meeting (e.g. conception). The decision is always going to be between God and the parents. The issue for me is when government wants to direct public (tax) dollars toward programs (Planned Parenthood?) that have loopholes to fund abortions without such matters being taken under consideration.... Some would argue that there are fewer monetary costs to abort vs. supporting a child through foster care, orphanages, welfare, etc.


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## *Happily Me* (Sep 2, 2006)

dicapr said:
			
		

> This is my first time posting in the christian forum although I read it often.  I just wanted to say that science today is reducing the number of women who would have to make this difficult choice.  With the approval of emergency contraception (sp?) as a over the counter option, those having accedental pregnancies will be reduced.  *Most of abortions, hopefully, would be about the health of the mother and or her unboarn fetus.  I am pro-life, but believe that the decisicion to abort the pregnancy is between the mother and father and God*.



i agree with this


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## tffy2004 (Sep 2, 2006)

At the age of 16 I had and abortion all because the father said he wasn't ready for children and it was the worst experience in my life.  I regret it even to this day.  But I thank God for his Mercy and Grace!!

*Ectopic Pregnancy*
This happens when the fertilzed egg doesn't make it to the uterus and implants itself to the wall of the fillopian tube.  As the baby grows it becomes more and more painful for he mother and the tube will eventually burst, a deadly situation for both mother and child.  I think this would be the only reason I would venture down that road again.


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## jrae (Sep 3, 2006)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> But even in rape, God can make something beautiful to come of it.
> 
> [snip]
> Another person, is my father. My grandmother was raped, when she was 12 years old, by her sister's husband.  My father was born on her birthday. It was always a special celebration with them.  He was raised by her and the loving support of her mother and the entire family, even my great aunt.   (My great aunt's husband was not allowed to stay).
> ...



Wow...how beautiful Shimmie.  Thank you for sharing that.  We are often short-sighted and make permanent, irreversible decisions for temporary 'problems' based on fear, uncertainty, insecurity, etc.  

Had your grandmother not had the courage to live by faith, our "Shimmie" wouldn't be here either.  
............

Hugs {{{tffy2004}}}.  Thanks for sharing your story.  Blessings.

~jrae


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## Shimmie (Sep 3, 2006)

jrae said:
			
		

> Wow...how beautiful Shimmie. Thank you for sharing that. We are often short-sighted and make permanent, irreversible decisions for temporary 'problems' based on fear, uncertainty, insecurity, etc.
> 
> *Had your grandmother not had the courage to live by faith, our "Shimmie" wouldn't be here either.*
> ............
> ...


 
Thank you Jrae (loving hugs to you).  Isn't God something? 

I thank God for my Nana.   But she had a strong support system with my great grand mother and her sisters; that alone was nothing but the love of God.  Especially for my great aunt to love her little sister and help raise the baby that her husband 'seeded'.  I can't imagine and don't want to.  But they were very close as a family.

Jrae, growing up around them, I NEVER knew.  They literally had put this all behind them.  My grandfather (My Nana's husband) never treated me (or my sisters) as if we were not blood related.  He actually spoiled me rotten; my mom lived with them when I was born. (My dad was in the service). I never knew my dad was his step-son.  I found out from a 'relative' later when I was an adult.   

The word of God says that, "He makes things beautiful in His time."  

Posts like this open up a lot of memories.  But we are here to love and heal each other. I can't judge or advise anyone who has had an abortion. It's too painful.  No one needs judgement...only to be loved.


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## kally (Sep 3, 2006)

My thing with Abortions is this. I am pro-life. God is the creator of life and gives the blessing to conceive life. God knows what our future actions are going to be. So my question is why does God even allow for these women who he knows will abort the baby to conceive in the first place? 

Second why is it that pro-choicers never put up the same fight for a woman who wants to keep her baby and is forced into a abortion as they do for a woman who wants to abort?

Third why is it that society only see the unborn as a baby when the woman wants to keep it and a fetus when she wants to abort.


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## tffy2004 (Sep 4, 2006)

At first I didn't want to mention that I had had an abortion cause I don't talk about it at all and I was afraid of what people would think of me.  To be honest with you I think about my baby alot and wonder if it would have been a boy or a girl and he or she would be getting ready to start school.  Sometimes before I go to sleep my mind wanders and I get emotional thinking about it and have an all around bad night and hard time sleeping.

Shimmie your story is really touching.  That itself proves that God has a plan for everyone's life.

*"Third why is it that society only see the unborn as a baby when the woman wants to keep it and a fetus when she wants to abort."*
Now that I think about it this point is so true, it never crossed my mind before.  Hmm, that's something to think about....

*"Why does God even allow for these women who he knows will abort the baby to conceive in the first place?"*
I have been wondering this exact thing since March 17, 2001


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## jrae (Sep 4, 2006)

tffy2004 said:
			
		

> [snip]
> 
> *"Third why is it that society only see the unborn as a baby when the woman wants to keep it and a fetus when she wants to abort."*
> [snip]
> ...


I have been asking "pro-choicers" the fetus vs. baby question for years and have yet to receive an answer other than "it is a fetus".  The truth is it comes down to terminology... we could get hung up on that word all we want but its just a term describing a human being in a certain stage of life - no different than "toddler" or "teenager" - neither is nonetheless a human being.  Is it living?  Yes.  What is its biology?  human.

The well-known feminist, author, speaker, Naomi Wolfe, is at least consistent.  She says, "let's just admit and be honest that it is a human life we are taking, but we just want the choice to do so."  (paraphrased)

*"Why would God even allow for these women who he knows will abort the baby to conceive in the first place?"  * Free will!   Also, the "problem" is not really the "conception" but our response and reaction to it.


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## Belle Du Jour (Sep 4, 2006)

I am pro-life.  Yes, we all have free choice, but that doesn't make something right, especially for a Christian.  God gave us free choice, but he also said "thou shalt not."  JMO.  I can only be responsible for my own life.  I can't and won't judge anyone else.


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## mkh_77 (Sep 4, 2006)

Pro-choice.


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## Crackers Phinn (Sep 4, 2006)

kally said:
			
		

> My thing with Abortions is this. I am pro-life. God is the creator of life and gives the blessing to conceive life. God knows what our future actions are going to be. *So my question is why does God even allow for these women who he knows will abort the baby to conceive in the first place?*


That's the question for the ages, but I'm going to go with 'free will'.



			
				kally said:
			
		

> Second why is it that pro-choicers never put up the *same fight for a woman who wants to keep her baby and is forced into a abortion *as they do for a woman who wants to abort?


How is someone forced into an abortion? Is there a news story where this happened?



			
				kally said:
			
		

> Third why is it that society only see the unborn as a baby when the woman wants to keep it and a fetus when she wants to abort.


When a woman wants to keep a baby, it is carried to term which means it matures through all the stages between fetus and infant.  Since it's not legal to abort an infant, that's why it's not called a baby when the procedure happens.


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## firecracker (Sep 4, 2006)

I am pro choice w/special circumstance.  I believe it is a sin but we all make choices daily on which sin we choose to act out or on.  erplexed  
Either way its between God and the murder or abortioner whatever you choose to call that person.


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## kally (Sep 4, 2006)

Jcoily the answer to your question "How is someone forced into an abortion? Is there a news story where this happened" is this". Many times when a young girl is with child her parent or parents  will force her to abort. Where is her support on her decision to keep the child?  Also there  was a case where a lady was forced to abort by her employer  or keep her job. There are also many cases where a child in conceived in an affair and the man pretty much brain washes his mistress into one to avoid conflict. Where are these womens support, when deep down the wanted to keep the baby. 

The question on baby versus fetus. Then why is it when a woman first finds out she is preggers everyone says she is going to have a baby and not she is going to have a fetus. Life has to start some where. I believe people say this to feel better about their "choice".

Free will has nothing to do with why conceive in the first Place. By saying "free will" in this term. You are stating that the women purposly set out to get pregnant just to have the abortion because she can. 

Free will = free choice not why the baby was conceived in the first place.


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## Shimmie (Sep 4, 2006)

tffy2004 said:
			
		

> At first I didn't want to mention that I had had an abortion cause I don't talk about it at all and I was afraid of what people would think of me. To be honest with you I think about my baby alot and wonder if it would have been a boy or a girl and he or she would be getting ready to start school. Sometimes before I go to sleep my mind wanders and I get emotional thinking about it and have an all around bad night and hard time sleeping.
> 
> Shimmie your story is really touching. That itself proves that God has a plan for everyone's life.
> 
> ...


 
Tffy, your story is even more touching and takes the courage of a woman who's heart is filled with the love and forgiveness of God to be so open.  

Anyone can 'see' from your very first post introducing yourself and your family, how filled you are with the Holy Spirit.  As the angel spoke to Mary in Luke 1, "Blessed art thou among [Virgins] for you have been selected by God to bring forth the Messiah."  

Tffy, no less are you.  For I can hear the love of God firmly speaking of you, "Blessed art thou among Virgins, for you have been selected by God to bring forth the love of Jesus and His Saving and Forgiving power to all who have been held captive through memories of the past."

You have been set free Tffy.  Free to have sweet dreams and sweet sleep.  You have been long and fully forgiven and you have been chosen from the heart of God, to spread His loving overflow of this liberty to others.   Just know, each time you lie down at night, just know that you are highly favored of God and in you, He is well pleased.  

Need backup?  You know that God always has back up with His word.

"The Sovereign LORD has given me an instructed tongue, to know the word that sustains the weary. He wakens me morning by morning, wakens my ear to listen like one being taught. 

The Sovereign LORD has opened my ears, and I have not been rebellious; 
I have not drawn back."   (Isaiah 50:4,5)

Tffy, you did not _drawn back_ in sharing your experience which is a testimony unto itself.  You allowed yourself to be lead and instructed of teh Lord, with words (in season) which will sustain someone who is weary; someone who may feel she is the only Christian in the world with a 'secret' that she cannot share, not knowing who will care.  

You did.  You cared and showing also that Jesus cares too and she has been forgiven, just like me and you...   (Selah...)

With all my heart...


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## tffy2004 (Sep 4, 2006)

Shimmie you really are a blessing to me.  You always put a smile on my face and joy in my heart when I read your posts.  I will definately remember this the next time I have a hard time sleeping or am having a bad day.  Thank you so much and my God Bless you in way you can't even imagine.

To everyone here: Is it possible for a Christian to be completely Pro-Choice?  if that makes since


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## Shimmie (Sep 4, 2006)

tffy2004 said:
			
		

> Shimmie you really are a blessing to me. You always put a smile on my face and joy in my heart when I read your posts. I will definately remember this the next time I have a hard time sleeping or am having a bad day. Thank you so much and my God Bless you in way you can't even imagine.
> 
> To everyone here: Is it possible for a Christian to be completely Pro-Choice? if that makes since


 
Tffy:  I only spoke the truth about you.  Only the truth.  For your sleep God says, "...He gives sleep to those He loves."  {Psalm 127:2(a)}

Tffy, you are loved. 'For God so loved...that He gave His Son Jesus for you."  You are loved.  God wants to drive this home to your heart.  *You are loved, trusted and forgiven and chosen to shine give Him glory.  *

As for the question, "Pro-Choice" in Christianity.  I believe that for some Christians, it's means, based on an extrodinary circumstance (rape, incest, medical).  For others, it's a renewal of our minds in Christ Jesus. For each of us have more and more to learn of Him each moment that we live.  This is my perception.   For I too have much, much more to learn.


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## sunnyjohn (Sep 5, 2006)

> Jcoily the answer to your question "How is someone forced into an abortion? Is there a news story where this happened" is this". Many times when a young girl is with child her parent or parents  will force her to abort. Where is her support on her decision to keep the child?



Having worked In the ER, OR and social services, once a girl becomes pregnant she is somewhat of an 'emancipated minor'. Her doctors must get her to sign the papers if she wishes and abortion. Even if the state requires parental consent the young woman must still sign.



> Also there  was a case where a lady was forced to abort by her employer  or keep her job.


 I love my job, but there is no way I'd have an abortion to keep it. Why didn't she walk straight out of her bosses office and head to the lawyer and then to the TV station? She would have been on CNN and Fox News by lunch time



> There are also many cases where a child in conceived in an affair and the man pretty much brain washes his mistress into one to avoid conflict. Where are these womens support, when deep down the wanted to keep the baby.


 I feel for these woman. Goodness knows alot of women allow themselves to be fooled by men... If they deep down wanted to keep their baby, why didn't they open the phone book and head for the nearest crisis center or church? I live in a smallish town and Christian pregnancy centers have ads all over the buses and in the telephone book. I wouldn't even mention how prevalent they were when I lived in DFW.  

Any woman in a position to be brainwhased by another person has problems only ONE of which is a unplanned pregnancy. Jesus came to set us free. That includes setting the mind free of the brainwashing (which I liken to witchcraft, but I won't go there today) of another...


I once volunteered with a group that helped support young women who where contemplating abortions. We would give them the whole story (not just scare them about the abortion or tell them they were going to hell or convince them motherhood was a bed of roses). If they decided to keep the baby we would find them a home for as long as they needed. We also helped them get educational training. Essentially, by the time they left our group they had at least an associate's degree (or diploma) their own car/transportation, money in the bank and a job.

If the young lady decided to have an abortion, we would STILL support them emotionally. We would even look in on them afterward or take them to follow-up doctor appointments if they needed it. We never looked down on them or judged them. Many, many of them would come back to talk or to get job/educational referrals.


It was their choice.....


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## jrae (Sep 5, 2006)

sunnyjohn said:
			
		

> [snip]
> I once volunteered with a group that helped support young women who where contemplating abortions. We would give them the whole story (not just scare them about the abortion or tell them they were going to hell or convince them motherhood was a bed of roses). If they decided to keep the baby we would find them a home for as long as they needed. We also helped them get educational training. Essentially, by the time they left our group they had at least an associate's degree (or diploma) their own car/transportation, money in the bank and a job.
> 
> If the young lady decided to have an abortion, we would STILL support them emotionally. We would even look in on them afterward or take them to follow-up doctor appointments if they needed it. We never looked down on them or judged them. Many, many of them would come back to talk or to get job/educational referrals.


Excellent, SunnyJohn!  These groups function without ANY recognition and they are truly giving women CHOICES and support.

I gave financially to a group like this many years ago but after I moved I lost their information.  Do you mind posting it?


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## Crackers Phinn (Sep 5, 2006)

kally said:
			
		

> Jcoily the answer to your question "How is someone forced into an abortion? Is there a news story where this happened" is this". *Many times when a young girl is with child her parent or parents  will force her to abort. Where is her support on her decision to keep the child?*


A young girl absolutely has the choice to live in poverty with a child that she can't afford to take care of.  It is not the parents responsibility to take care of a grandchild. If a young lady is grown enough to have consensual sex and grown enough to make the decision to be a mother then she does not need a champion - she needs a job. 



			
				kally said:
			
		

> Also there  was a case where a lady was forced to abort by her employer  or keep her job.


I can't speak about international matters because some foreign govts can force people to do anything. However, if this had happened in the U.S., the company would be fined up the wazoo and this woman would be the patron saint of the pro-life movement.  So it's hard to imagine this as much more than an urban legend.



			
				kally said:
			
		

> There are also many cases where a child in conceived in an affair and the man pretty much *brain washes *his mistress into one to avoid conflict. *Where are these womens support, when deep down the wanted to keep the baby.*


No, deep down they really wanted to keep *'the man' *in question. Brain washing is what people claim when they need an excuse for unthinkable behavior.  Again, nobody is forcing these women to have abortions, they are doing it for their own self interest. 



			
				kally said:
			
		

> The question on baby versus fetus. Then *why is it when a woman first finds out she is preggers everyone says she is going to have a baby *and not she is going to have a fetus. Life has to start some where. I believe people say this to feel better about their "choice".


 When people happily announce a pregnancy, the consensus is that it will be carried to term - hence a baby being born.  




			
				kally said:
			
		

> Free will has nothing to do with why conceive in the first Place. By saying "free will" in this term. *You are stating that the women purposly set out to get pregnant just to have the abortion because she can.* Free will = free choice not why the baby was conceived in the first place.



No, that is not at all what I am saying.  Pregnancy doesn't just happen. Sex has to happen first. With the exception of rape/incest, a woman makes a conscious choice to lay down with a man unprotected. If that's not free will, I don't know what is.


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## kally (Sep 6, 2006)

I know that there are caring centers to go that the women can get help. My point is are any of these centers the pro-choice centers?

Jcoily, So you mean to tell me that just because a "fetus" is conceived to someone poor that the unborn does not deserve to live? There are rich young girls who are forced to abort as well. This is a life we are dealing with not a toy. If this is the case then only the rich or well to do should be allowed to have kids.
Many parents treat their grandchild if conceived by their young child as if she did this on purpose and like a toy. Saying things like "she don't need it" . Wow what a way for your own grand parents to feel about you. I guess some people do not value the live of others. Sad world we live in.

As far as the lady who choose to abort and keep her job. She is a pro-lifer. Which how I found out about it. Many women choose their career over the unborn.  This one was not strong enough to fight her employer.

For all of the pro-choicer who did not know. The lady who started this whole thing with the Roe v Wade case now regrets the fact that 3000 babies are killed daily legally.  She hates the fact that her case got this whole "it is not a life" campaign going. She also is pro-life now. She also KEPT her baby.


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## kally (Sep 6, 2006)

Jcoily there are woman who let you know that they are aborting before it happens. It happens here all the time. First you get all happy for the lady and next thing you know all along she was planinng on ending the "fetus" life.

There is this lady on my mom's job that  had 13 abortions. She uses abortions as her contreception. She did let one live. But hey it was her "choice" right?

My best friends cousins has had four of them and she would do it stickly to get even with her husband. She would get pregnant then abort to hurt him. I guess proving her power as a woman. What she does not care that she has hurt a child. 

Life is a life no matter what stage of growing you are in, but I guess other do not see it that way.


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## sunnyjohn (Sep 6, 2006)

kally said:
			
		

> I know that there are caring centers to go that the women can get help. My point is are any of these centers the pro-choice centers?....



The organization I mentioned in my previous post was a pro-choice organization and a pro-choice center. If a woman wanted to keep her baby we helped her. We gave her more than the "Jesus love you and you are doing the right thing" talk. We helped the mama get on her feet.

Jesus loves us, but even he took action and prayed up bread and fishes when folks was in dire need of dinner.

If a woman decided to abort, we still supported her with follow-up medical care and any educational and job training she needed.

Our goal was to change the behaviour/situation that lead to the pregnancy in the first place.


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## kally (Sep 6, 2006)

That is good to hear Sunny John. I did not know. I only would hear about pro-choicer being there in case of a an abortion.

Question which decision was made more. Live or death? Just curious to know if the abortions out weigh the choice of life.


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## sunnyjohn (Sep 6, 2006)

> ......
> 
> There is this lady on my mom's job that  had 13 abortions. She uses abortions as her contreception. She did let one live. But hey it was her "choice" right?


 This woman needs proper sex education and PSYCHOLOGICAL COUNSELING! Obviously something is wrong if you feel the need to take the torturious path and shun common sense. I won't even mention exposing yourself to AIDS/HIV.



> ....My best friends cousins has had four of them and she would do it stickly to get even with her husband. She would get pregnant then abort to hurt him. I guess proving her power as a woman. What she does not care that she has hurt a child.


 Another example of a woman turning over her responsability for assuring her own happiness to a man. How can anyone possibly say they have a good man and a healthy marriage if they feel the need to abort to hurt another?


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## kally (Sep 6, 2006)

I know sad isn't it. I guess I will never understand. Nor do I want to.


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## Crackers Phinn (Sep 6, 2006)

kally said:
			
		

> Jcoily, So you mean to tell me that *just because a "fetus" is conceived to someone poor that the unborn does not deserve to live?* There are rich young girls who are forced to abort as well. This is a life we are dealing with not a toy. If this is the case then only the rich or well to do should be allowed to have kids.



Nope, didn't say that at all.  Financial incentive isn't a reason to abort, particularly from a Christian perspective. If a girl/woman really wants to be a mother then she shouldn't be above taking a job that will probably provide less in the way of comfortable lifestyle than what her parents supplied her with.  You say that the threat of being cut off financially is forcing someone to abort.  I say that in this situation, the woman chooses her own comfort over motherhood. 




			
				kally said:
			
		

> *Many parents treat their grandchild if conceived by their young child as if she did this on purpose and like a toy.* Saying things like "she don't need it" . Wow what a way for your own grand parents to feel about you. I guess some people do not value the live of others. Sad world we live in.



A young child getting pregnant by consensual sex probably does regard their baby as a toy. That's a broad statement but I stand by it. A 16 year old isn't likely to contemplate how to provide food and shelter for themselves, let alone a baby. I don't care how much the grandparents love the baby, odds are if they wanted another child to support in their house, they would have had their own.

But if that 16 year old insists on being a mother then they have to embrace the good, bad and ugly that comes with being a 16 year old mother.


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## Crackers Phinn (Sep 6, 2006)

kally said:
			
		

> There is this lady on my mom's job that  had 13 abortions. She uses abortions as her contreception. She did let one live. But hey it was her "choice" right?


I got two answers for you on this 

Christian answer - God will judge her.

JCoily answer - Those 13 souls are better off where they are at than with this woman. Someone who has had 13 abortions has pretty much proved that she SHOULD NOT BE A MOTHER. 

Question, if this woman had had all 14 children, are there pro-life groups out there that step in to help her out?


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## *Frisky* (Sep 6, 2006)

I would think 13 abortions is medically impossibe *shrugs*


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## comike (Sep 6, 2006)

I am definitely pro-choice.  There's no doubt that what the bible states is clearly black and white but it's not left up to me to enforce my beliefs on someone else.  God is the judge....Not I.


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## kally (Sep 7, 2006)

I am not judging anyone. Nor forcing my beliefs upon anyone.  I am simply stating what happened to this woman and my views on the whole abortion issue. 

 If I had a young daughter with child I would help her out for she is carrying a generation. I do not want to see a whole generation of my family gone on the bases of a  selfish "choice" The child is conceived and I would do my best to make it right.

 It is medically possible to have multiple abortions. I have heard of women who have had even more then that. How their abilty to continue to conceive is still going, is beyond me.

It is not the pro-lifers fault this lady decided to get pregnant 14 times. Our goal is to look out for the unborn. Where as pro-choicers feel that it is common sense and "wise" to kill your child if you can not afford it or because you can, because you are woman and have the power to decide who lives and who dies, or what is good for "her".

The ironic thing about abortion is that those who are for it are already born.

The only good thing about abortion is that it prevents future abortions.


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## Bunny77 (Sep 7, 2006)

kally said:
			
		

> Where as pro-choicers feel that it is common sense and "wise" to kill your child if you can not afford it or because you can, because you are woman and have the power to decide who lives and who dies, or what is good for "her".



You're capable of reading the minds of pro-choicers? You may disagree with the pro-choice perspective and that's fine, but I can't stand when pro-lifers decide to speak for the rest of us and say how we think.

I am pro-choice because I believe that it's a decision that's between a woman and her God and ultimately she will have to answer only to Him for her decision. 

By all means, stay on your pro-life course... and you might get more converts by focusing on why life is so important instead of making up reasons why pro-choicers believe the way they do.

BTW, do you have a link to the story of the woman who was forced to have an abortion? I'm sorry, but if I didn't want to have an abortion and it was THAT important to me, I'd quit and sue the pants off that employer (and I say that from a PRO-CHOICE perspective). That sounds quite ridiculous for a pro-life person to give in so easily because she says she doesn't want to fight, but then say, "Waaah, I was forced to have an abortion."

In that case, why call herself pro-life if the "life" wasn't important enough for her to fight for?


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## Crackers Phinn (Sep 7, 2006)

kally said:
			
		

> I am not judging anyone. Nor forcing my beliefs upon anyone.  I am simply stating what happened to this woman and my views on the whole abortion issue.


That's cool. We're all in here just talking. I actually think this is one of the tamest abortion discussions I've been in. 




			
				kally said:
			
		

> It is not the pro-lifers fault this lady decided to get pregnant 14 times. *Our goal is to look out for the unborn.*


If your focus is just on the unborn, then you can't claim to care about the baby either. It's the theory of a baby that you want to protect, not the actual child.  



			
				kally said:
			
		

> Where as pro-choicers feel that it is common sense and "wise" to kill your child if you can not afford it or because you can, because you are woman and have the power to decide who lives and who dies, or what is good for "her".


There are pro-choice people who have responded to you here that haven't said anything remotely like this.  The consensus has been that it's between a woman and God.


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## kally (Sep 7, 2006)

Which goes back to my original question, why does God allow the woman the gift of conception if he knows she will abort the child?


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## kally (Sep 7, 2006)

I will try to find that article for you.


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## kally (Sep 7, 2006)

here that link:


http://www.beverlylahayeinstitute.org/articledisplay.asp?id=2085&department=BLI&categoryid=femfacts


Where Are All the Feminists When You Need Them?     9/18/2002
By Angie Vineyard, Research Fellow

This week The Washington Post reported that during her coaching career at the University of California at Berkeley, Marianne Stanley forced an assistant coach to choose between having an abortion and quitting her job. 




The assistant, Sharrona Alexander, was actually on her way to Atlanta to have the abortion, (allegedly paid for by Stanley) when she changed her mind and decided that she didn't want to terminate her pregnancy, nor did she want to step down from her coaching job. Her decision did not suit Stanley, now the head coach of the Washington Mystics, who asked Alexander to resign. Alexander refused, was subsequently fired and later brought a pregnancy discrimination lawsuit against the university, which reportedly settled for $115,000. 




Lest we think this is an isolated incident, it was only a month ago that the D.C. inspector general recommended "appropriate disciplinary action" against an Emergency Medical Services (EMS) supervisor, whose advice led three rookie emergency medical technicians to have abortions, for fear of losing their jobs. 




According to the D.C. inspector general's investigation, the majority of a March 2001 EMS orientation class recalled operations chief Samanthia M. Robinson saying they were on a year's probation, had no union representation and could be fired if they became pregnant. Robinson denied telling class members that pregnancy would result in termination, but three students came forward independently, to tell that they had chosen abortions, based on Robinson's remarks. 




And so, the unequivocal question: When these women were forced to make this horrific choice, when they were told they could not simultaneously hold onto their careers and assume the role of motherhood, where were the feminists? 




That any boss would pressure an employee to abort her child, simply to keep her job, is preposterous. Federal and state laws clearly prohibit pregnancy discrimination. Notwithstanding, 4,287 pregnancy discrimination charges were filed just last year with the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. 




But the most appalling fact in both of these cases is that the bosses were women. 




Why would a female boss pressure an employee to have an abortion, lest she lose her job? Were these women ever slacking in their job performance? Or did their employers make an assumption that pregnant women are weak, professionally incompetent and incapable of carrying out their job responsibilities? 




If the boss in either of these cases had been a male, feminist groups would have fallen all over themselves to lambaste the chauvinist and drag his name through the media mud. But when the boss is a female, who is to come to the aid of pregnant employees? 




Where was Planned Parenthood? Where were the throngs of women who, three decades ago, fought a contentious court battle for reproductive rights, all in the name of "choice?" 




Wasn't it their beloved Margaret Sanger who wrote in Woman and the New Race: 




"Women who have a knowledge of contraceptives are not compelled to make the choice between a maternal experience and a marred love life; they are not forced to balance motherhood against social and spiritual activities. Motherhood is for them to choose, as it should be for every woman to choose." 




Ah, but this assistant head coach and these EMS students didn't get to choose. Rather, their choice was made for them. 




Wasn't it also the mother of Planned Parenthood who wrote: 




"No woman can call herself free who does not own and control her body. No woman can call herself free until she can choose consciously whether she will or will not be a mother." 





And didn't Sanger also write: 




"Woman must have her freedom - the fundamental freedom of choosing whether or not she shall be a mother and how many children she will have. Regardless of what man's attitude may be, that problem is hers - and before it can be his, it is hers alone." 




But the problem wasn't "man's attitude," rather it was woman's. 




It isn't likely that feminist groups have never heard of Marianne Stanley. It was Stanley who sued the University of Southern California for sexual discrimination in 1993, demanding compensation parity for men's and women's head coaches. Stanley lost the lawsuit on the grounds that her coaching and marketing experience did not equal that of her male counterpart. But by the time that verdict was handed down, her name had passed through feminist circles across the country. 




So what do the feminist groups think about these cases? Do they think there is any reason to rally around Alexander and these three EMS students in their quest to be working mothers? Or do the pro-choice activists secretly denounce these women for not being willing to give up motherhood in order to further their careers in sports and medicine? Do they furtively think these young mothers just weren't willing to pay the price to remain on level playing ground with the men and such is their loss, they should have known better? 




If the latter is true, then it's starkly obvious. It never really was about the right to choose. 

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## Bunny77 (Sep 7, 2006)

Thank you for the link.

I went on Nexis to read the news stories that were published about both the incidents with the basketball coach and the EMS technicians. In both cases, the stories didn't hit the news until after the fact -- after the abortions were done in the case of the EMS techs and after the coach was fired for refusing to have an abortion.

So I just wonder how anyone pro-choice or pro-life was supposed to advocate for these women when their cases weren't discovered until they filed lawsuits... and by then the decisions had already been made. I have no idea if pro-choicers would have advocated for them the same way they fight for abortion rights... but I can't agree with the "they don't fight for women who want to keep their babies," statement simply based on a few cases in which the women didn't speak up until after the fact. 

Again, I say that if a woman knows she wants to keep her child and someone is threatening her with a job loss if she doesn't abort, she should be screaming to every reporter she can find and instantly get a lawyer who can also be her advocate to the media.

Make a ruckus and fight like heck for your right to keep your child, because you will ALWAYS be in the right under our federal laws here in the USA.

The good news... that basketball coach ended up getting an assistant coaching job in 2003 at West Virginia and I found an article that showed that she just got her first head-coaching job over the summer. 

http://www.cwpostpioneers.com/News/wbball/2006/5/3/reaveshiring.asp?path=wbball


To conclude... even if we don't agree with the other side, I think it would do everyone a ton of good to actually listen to what they have to say sometimes and not assume that you automatically know what they believe, because it's never as cut and dried as one might think. It would be wrong for me to say that ALL pro-lifers believe in killing abortion doctors, for example... and it's just as inaccurate to say that pro-choicers don't care about children and think that women should be able to "kill babies" just because they feel like it.


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## kally (Sep 8, 2006)

I agree. I guess they did not come forward, because they did not think help was available or was to ashamed. 

I admit some pro-lifers believe in the eye for an eye thoery. I however do not


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## jrae (Sep 8, 2006)

Bunny77 said:
			
		

> I am pro-choice because I believe that it's a decision that's between a woman and her God and ultimately she will have to answer only to Him for her decision.



But, everything we do is ultimately between us and God, but we still have laws to protect our fundamental freedoms...which, first and foremost, is life.   

Second, does God not hold us responsible for how we treat our neighbor/fellow man?


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## BerrySweet (Sep 10, 2006)

I'm pro-choice and a Christian.  I would never have an abortion (but I've also never been placed in a situation that would merit that thinking thank God), but I have a hard time telling someone who's shoes I've never been in what to do with their life.  Meaning in cases of rape, or incest-I don't think I would be able to look at a woman and tell her she should give birth to her fathers child, I just couldn't.  But the women who use abortion as birth control are misguided, I believe, and need as much help and prayer, but without the harsh judgement.


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