# BAMBOOZLED by Afroveda



## Rastafarai (Oct 8, 2010)

First I want to say that I've been a loyal customer of Mala Rhodes, owner of Afroveda LLC, for two years. I religiously ordered her products and conditioners thinking I was getting the best and paying for the best. Even after the recent price hike I was still willing to support Afroveda as my hair loves her products. 

That is, until I realize many of her products, her conditioners in particular, are created from hair bases, yet purported as being mixed and concocted by the owner herself.  

Take for example her *$21.95 Ashlii Amala Deep Conditioner*. Here are her ingredients:

This rich hair treatment contains Aloe Vera Leaf Juice, Cetearyl Alcohol, Castor Seed Oil, Moringa Leaf Powder, Red Raspberry Oil, Buriti Seed Oil, Stearalkonium Chloride, Phenoxyethanol, d-Calcium Panthenol Vitamin B5, WheatPRO Plus, Coconut Oil, Kosher Vegetable Glycerin, Pomegranate Oil, Meadowfoam Oil an essential oil blend of Lime, Tangerine, Orange and Thyme, and love. 


Now compare to the hair base found at this website:

Hair Masque

Aloe barbadensis (Organic Aloe) Juice, Cetearyl Alcohol, Ricinus communis (Castor Seed) Oil, Stearalkonium Chloride, Phenoxyethanol, d-Calcium Pantothenate (Panthenol Vitamin B5), Hydrolized Wheat Protein, Cocos nucifera (Coconut) Oil, Kosher Vegetable Glycerin, Limnanthes alba (Meadowfoam) Oil


*It is the exact same products minus the added oils and WheatPro Plus either you or myself can add if we so desired.*


Mala charges close to $22 for an *8 oz* of this product. You can get the same product for $22 for *1/2 a gallon* on the above website. 

That's *64 ounces* you can purchase for $22 compared to *8 oz* for $22 dollars with Afroveda. 


Buyers and potential customers beware. I choose to no longer be bamboozled by this phony.


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## LunadeMiel (Oct 8, 2010)

The link says that's it's 90% organic so maybe that's why they feel comfortable using it


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## *fabulosity* (Oct 8, 2010)

This broke on NC.. like yesterday... but apparently everybody (INCLUDING SOME FAVES HERE) are using bases.


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## EllePixie (Oct 8, 2010)

Rastafarai said:


> First I want to say that I've been a loyal customer of Mala Rhodes, owner of Afroveda LLC, for two years. I religiously ordered her products and conditioners thinking I was getting the best and paying for the best. Even after the recent price hike I was still willing to support Afroveda as my hair loves her products.
> 
> That is, until I realize many of her products, her conditioners in particular, are created from hair bases, yet purported as being mixed and concocted by the owner herself.
> 
> ...



LOLOLOL! Hey! For the record, I fully support this exposure.


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## Neith (Oct 8, 2010)

*Flava Flav Voice*

Wooooooooooooooooooooooow.


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## FearfullyMade (Oct 8, 2010)

Yea, I've noticed ingredients used in alot of products are things that you can buy yourself and them mix up. (Don't forget to take them off your list of staples)


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## LunadeMiel (Oct 8, 2010)

I just had a thought, so this little piece here contradicts their reasoning behing the recent price hikes.


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## Platinum (Oct 8, 2010)

Wow. Thanks for sharing, OP.


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## Rastafarai (Oct 8, 2010)

LunadeMiel said:


> The link says that's it's 90% organic so maybe that's why they feel comfortable using it


 
But charging me and other customers 5x as much when I can get an 8oz for $4 and some change?! 

Nah son!


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## LunadeMiel (Oct 8, 2010)

Rastafarai said:


> But charging me and other customers 5x as much when I can get an 8oz for $4 and some change?!
> 
> Nah son!


 

I agree with you. She's making a serious profit. and whose's to say that she's not dilluting the base....


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## EllePixie (Oct 8, 2010)

For the record, just about all of her conditioners are bases...

- Holy Basil, Coconut Moisture, & Neem - If you like these you can use this: http://www.ingredientstodiefor.com/i...category_id=53

- If you like the The Tea Tree and Lemon, Ylang, CinnaMint, B.A.R.E, and possibly the Ananda (???) conditioners, you can use these bases: Wholesale Bulk Hair Conditioner - Tea Tree 1 Gallon

Wholesale Bulk Aromatherapy+ Conditioner - Ylang and Ginger

Wholesale Bulk Aromatherapy+ Conditioner - Rosemary Mint 1 Gallon

Wholesale Bulk Conditioner - AromaFree&reg; (Unscented) 1 gallon


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## Neith (Oct 8, 2010)

*fabulosity* said:


> This broke on NC.. like yesterday... but apparently everybody (INCLUDING SOME FAVES HERE) are using bases.


 
Who else?  Just curious.  I feel that's really not right for any company to do if they claim that their products are formulated by them and made by hand...


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## EllePixie (Oct 8, 2010)

Brendita's Body Works, Wonder Curl, Amourai Organique, HairVeda, Jasmine's Bath and Beauty...there are more.

Oh, and the the silica in AV's conditioners is apparently actually a cone in the base. The base ingredient says, "Dimethicone (from Silica), and she just chose to list silica...

...


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## Rastafarai (Oct 8, 2010)

*fabulosity* said:


> This broke on NC.. like yesterday... but apparently everybody (INCLUDING SOME FAVES HERE) are using bases.


 
Alot of us are still out of the loop though. I just found this out today. 

Thanks to EllePixie and the members of NC. I can't believe Mala.


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## Mrs. Verde (Oct 8, 2010)

Wow OP thanks for the info!!!


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## Rastafarai (Oct 8, 2010)

EllePixie said:


> Brendita's Body Works, Wonder Curl, Amourai Organique, HairVeda, Jasmine's Bath and Beauty...there are more.
> 
> Oh, and the the silica in AV's conditioners is apparently actually a cone in the base. The base ingredient says, "Dimethicone (from Silica), and she just chose to list silica...
> 
> ...


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## PJaye (Oct 8, 2010)

So, all one has to do is buy a conditioner base, add oils to it, package it and pass it off as an original, self-derived product?


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## Neith (Oct 8, 2010)

EllePixie said:


> Brendita's Body Works, Wonder Curl, Amourai Organique, HairVeda, Jasmine's Bath and Beauty...there are more.
> 
> Oh, and the the silica in AV's conditioners is apparently actually a cone in the base. The base ingredient says, "Dimethicone (from Silica), and she just chose to list silica...
> 
> ...



Unbelievable...  I really am shocked.  Part of the reason people buy from smaller natural/organic companies is because we want a truly hand made product.

It's sick that people would take advantage of their customers like that.  




PJaye said:


> So, all one has to do is buy a conditioner base, add oils to it, package it and pass it off as an original, self-derived product?


 

Apparently.  They are making mega profit with much less effort, while deceiving the customer.


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## IDareT'sHair (Oct 8, 2010)

I like quite a few of these companies that have been purported to use "Bases" for their products. 

Although I don't think it's fair some of them are trying to charge a Kings Ransom for their "Handmade" Products.......I know full well, I am not going to be Mixing Anything (no time soon).  

Not going to Happen.

So, I will choose wisely with whom I spend my money and Customer Service, Shipping, Willingness to "resolve product issues" will definitely be something that I strongly take into consideration and focus on moving forth.

I've ordered Handmade Products from 2 Companies recently, and the Customer Service was terrible.  

So, I've added them to my Personal NO-BUY List.


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## bravenewgirl87 (Oct 8, 2010)

*Oh, girl... you really surprised? A lot of these start up companies make the products from bases. That's nothing new. If they made them with natural and organic products they would have FAR more preservatives and would cost a LOT more.*


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## DDTexlaxed (Oct 8, 2010)

It does not mean she actually uses this product to make her conditioners. This is just a site the poster here found. It just means anyone can use these ingredients to "make" a product similar to Mala's by spending less. Mala has made some ladies angry with the price hike, including me. I just don't know if this is a true source of information being spread. No offense. Ya'll already make it sound like it is something Mala does.


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## Rastafarai (Oct 8, 2010)

PJaye said:


> So, all one has to do is buy a conditioner base, add oils to it, package it and pass it off as an original, self-derived product?



Correct. Even you can do it. Just don't forget to charge 5x as much to gain a profit and when you feel like pulling an Afroveda, up the price within a year and explain its because of increase prices of raw products.

If she's charging this much for conditioners, I'm pretty certain we're being ripped off on her butters too.


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## *fabulosity* (Oct 8, 2010)

Hair Products and Their Bases - CurlTalk

I think according to some members I've known for quite a while and have curbed my spending for those certain products because I would rather buy in bulk for cheaper and add my own things... 

I didn't break it because it would be like telling people there's no Santa and of course even in black in white some people will still deny.. and it's not that deep.. to me at least.

And it's nothing wrong with it.. people are in business to make a profit..


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## Rastafarai (Oct 8, 2010)

DDTexlaxed said:


> It does not mean she actually uses this. This is just something she found. It just means anyone can use these ingredients to "make" a product similar to hers by spending less. Mala has made some ladies angry with the price hike, including me. I just don't know if this is a true source of information being spread. No offense.


 
Not sure why she would create her own products with the exact same ingredients if she can get it in bulk for far cheaper than what she may have to pay for individual ingredients. 

She is saving time and money buy ordering these hair bases in bulk.


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## Neith (Oct 8, 2010)

If you use a base... fine.

I don't agree with lying about it though.  

If you say it's your own formulation and you say you mix it by hand, that's what the people buying it with their hard earned money should get.

Also, hiking the price up so high just because you added a little oil or other ingredients?  Shameful.

jmho


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## naturalmanenyc (Oct 8, 2010)

The use of bases does not bother me.

I am not an AfroVeda customer, never bought their products and never will; however, my mother uses bases for her products (NOT haircare but bodycare) and she literally does* hand prepare *everything. She uses the base (lotion, shower gel etc) and she adds color, scented oil etc. She also personally does the packaging and labeling. 

Granted, my mom is not charging $25 for a $5 product/container and she also has no display at her store advertising wholly organic or handmade or specially formulated products.


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## EllePixie (Oct 8, 2010)

Honestly I don't mind if they use bases, because like IDareT'sHair said, 9 times out of 10 I'm too lazy to add stuff unless it's MSM or castor oil or honey. I just don't like it when they act like they put their blood, sweat, and tears into a product when they CLEARLY did not...that's just lying to consumers.


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## La Colocha (Oct 8, 2010)

Nothing wrong with using bases people just don't want to be lied too, then charged an arm and a leg for the products.


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## Solitude (Oct 8, 2010)

For some reason, I'm not surprised about Hairveda. They do not claim their products to be completely natural and organic....although they do claim them to be handmade. 

Sigh...I KNEW these companies didn't have the means and equipment to make some of these products by hand. At least Hairveda's products are reasonably priced. I will still patronize them as long as the prices stay low. I don't buy from any of those other companies.

ETA: I just noticed that Hairveda's site actually says "handcrafted" and not handmade :scratchch


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## Rastafarai (Oct 8, 2010)

naturalmanenyc said:


> The use of bases does not bother me.
> 
> I am not an AfroVeda customer, never bought their products and never will; however, my mother uses bases for her products (NOT haircare but bodycare) and she literally does* hand prepare *everything. She uses the base (lotion, shower gel etc) and she adds color, scented oil etc. She also personally does the packaging and labeling.
> 
> Granted, my mom is not charging $25 for a $5 product/container and she also has no display at her store advertising wholly organic or handmade or specially formulated products.


 
Fair enough but using that same argument, how come Mala's hand preparing now cost customers close to 3x as much in under one year (from $9 to 12.50 and now $21.50)? Is there now some added premium in using her hands/talent/expertise?

And you're telling me adding oils, WheatPro Plus and Moringa Leaf Powder to a hair base is to cost me over $10 a pop for an 8 oz? 

In my honest opinion, Miss Mala Rhodes done lost her dayum mind.


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## EllePixie (Oct 8, 2010)

Yea, I mean, I don't have beef with HairVeda at all...someone just wanted to know who is using bases so I named them. Brendita's BBW is a MESS though...for a lot of her products she doesn't even ADD things, she just repackages the base and sells it as her own. Then, when you go to the About Brendita section she talks about how she did all this research and made her own products. I wanted her Phat Head Coconut Pudding, but it's actually just the Essential Wholesale Silk Creme, which is $11 for 16oz while the repackaged product is $8 for 6oz...

Brendita Ingredients:
Organic Aloe Juice, Organic Coconut Oil, Emulsifying Wax, Palm Stearic Acid, Kosher Vegetable Glycerin, Organic Jojoba Oil, Organic Grapeseed Oil, Organic Avocado Oil, Organic Witch Hazel, Vitamin E, Phenoxyethanol, Hydrolyzed Silk, Xanthan Gum, Organic Black Willowbark Extract, Neem Oil, Rosemary Oleoresin, Citric Acid

EW Ingredients:
Aloe barbadensis (Organic Aloe) Juice, Cocos nucifera (Organic Coconut) Oil, Emulsifying Wax NF, Palm Stearic Acid, Kosher Vegetable Glycerin, Simmondsia chinensis (Jojoba) Oil, Vitis vinifera (Grapeseed) Oil, Persea americana (Avocado) Oil, Hamamelis virginiana (Witch Hazel), Tocopherol (Vitamin E), Phenoxyethanol, Hydrolyzed Silk, Xanthan Gum (Polysaccharide Gum), Salix nigra (Organic Black Willowbark) Extract, Mannan, Azadirachta indica (Neem) Oil, Rosmarinus officinalis (Rosemary) Oleoresin, Tetrasodium EDTA, Citric Acid


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## DDTexlaxed (Oct 8, 2010)

Does anyone know for a fact Mala does this? I'm a bit confused. The original post shows a site where the conditioner is a base product with similar ingredients to one of Mala's conditioners.  It does not mean Mala herself is buying the same product and charging 5 times as much to sell it. Maybe I read it wrong.


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## Rastafarai (Oct 8, 2010)

DDTexlaxed said:


> Does anyone know for a fact Mala does this? I'm a bit confused. The original post shows a site where the conditioner is a base product with similar ingredients to one of Mala's conditioners.  It does not mean Mala herself is buying the same product and charging 5 times as much to sell it. Maybe I read it wrong.



So you don't find it coincidental that similar ingredients for all of her conditioners  can be found in hair bases from the aforementioned websites?

Or that, coincidentally, Mala chose to list the ingredients in the _exact_ same order as the hair bases?


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## EllePixie (Oct 8, 2010)

DDTexlaxed said:


> Does anyone know for a fact Mala does this? I'm a bit confused. The original post shows a site where the conditioner is a base product with similar ingredients to one of Mala's conditioners.  It does not mean Mala herself is buying the same product and charging 5 times as much to sell it. Maybe I read it wrong.


 
Are you serious? Perhaps this will convince you...

This is Mala's description of the conditioner:
The pH of our hair mask compacts the cuticle layer of the hair, which will result in shiny, bouncy hair that is not weighed down. The conditioning ingredients form a protective layer over the cortex where the cuticle cells have broken away, which creates a protective layer or coating over these rough edges. The protective coating created with our Ashlii Amala Hair Mask also seals in moisture and and reduces static electricity.

This is the EW description:
Truth be told there is no miracle cure to repair damaged hair.  Hair is dead and cannot be repaired.  But it can be coated and conditioned.  The pH of our hair masque compacts the cuticle layer of the hair, which will result in shiny, bouncy hair that is not weighed down.  The active ingredients in our hair masque leaves the hair feeling smooth, while leaving a "waxy" coating on the hair.  The conditioning ingredients of this hair masque form a protective layer over the cortex where the cuticle cells have broken away, which creates a protective layer or coating over these rough edges.  The protective coating created with conditioner also seals in moisture and reduces static electricity.

Decide for yourself, but I know dang sure they didn't copy _her_.


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## Tiye (Oct 8, 2010)

Most manufacturers use bases purchased from outsource companies. No indie seller like afroveda is blending steralkonium chloride or phenoxyethanol, etc., in her kitchen. It takes teams of professional chemists to come up with good formulas and it is a full time job - there are no part time hustlers doing it. The most she may be doing is melting and mixing butters but even those can be purchased as bases too. Note - I am not an afroveda customer and never have been but if you're going to boycott a cosmetic retailer for using bases then you may as well boycott all of them from the indie sellers on youtube to proctor and gamble.


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## Neith (Oct 8, 2010)

Rastafarai said:


> So you don't find it coincidental that similar ingredients for all of her conditioners  can be found in hair bases from the aforementioned websites?
> 
> Or that, coincidentally, Mala chose to list the ingredients in the _exact_ same order as the hair bases?


 
Exactly.



DDTexlaxed said:


> Does anyone know for a fact Mala does this? I'm a bit confused. The original post shows a site where the conditioner is a base product with similar ingredients to one of Mala's conditioners.  It does not mean Mala herself is buying the same product and charging 5 times as much to sell it. Maybe I read it wrong.



It would be a huge coincidence that someone who formulated their own product came up with something so similar to a conditioner base.




Tiye said:


> Most manufacturers use bases purchased from outsource companies. *No indie seller like afroveda is blending steralkonium chloride or phenoxyethanol, etc., in her kitchen. It takes teams of professional chemists to come up with good formulas and it is a full time job - there are no part time hustlers doing it.* The most she may be doing is melting and mixing butters but even those can be purchased as bases too. Note - I am not an afroveda customer and never have been but if you're going to boycott a cosmetic retailer for using bases then you may as well boycott all of them from the indie sellers on youtube to proctor and gamble.



I disagree with the bolded.  I have done tons of research on how to make conditioners and other hair/skin products from scratch.

Here's a forum that I poke around on from time to time:

The Soap Dish Forum ARCHIVES (Powered by Invision Power Board)


Many of those people make their own product, from scratch, using the same ingredients we are used to seeing in products.  It is actually work, you must have a good formula, know the percentages and types of preservatives to use,  etc... but anyone who is dedicated can learn to do this without ultra fancy equipment.


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## IDareT'sHair (Oct 8, 2010)

EllePixie said:


> *I just don't like it when they act like they put their blood, sweat, and tears into a product when they CLEARLY did not...that's just lying to consumers.*


 
@EllePixie

Girl, IA.erplexed 

That is so wrong on so many levels. 

All it's doing though is making us Wise Consumers.  

_Shop Smarter Not Harder_.


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## EllePixie (Oct 8, 2010)

Tiye said:


> Most manufacturers use bases purchased from outsource companies. No indie seller like afroveda is blending steralkonium chloride or phenoxyethanol, etc., in her kitchen. It takes teams of professional chemists to come up with good formulas and it is a full time job - there are no part time hustlers doing it. The most she may be doing is melting and mixing butters but even those can be purchased as bases too. Note - I am not an afroveda customer and never have been but if you're going to boycott a cosmetic retailer for using bases then you may as well boycott all of them from the indie sellers on youtube to proctor and gamble.



Like many of the posters said, there is NOTHING wrong with using a base, or even choosing not to disclose that you use one. But, at the same time, don't say you made your product fro SCRATCH when you did not. Loreal doesn't act like they made that mess in their kitchen...


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## hannan (Oct 8, 2010)

EllePixie  THANK YOU! This shady business is a no go for me.


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## Rastafarai (Oct 8, 2010)

Tiye said:


> Most manufacturers use bases purchased from outsource companies. No indie seller like afroveda is blending steralkonium chloride or phenoxyethanol, etc., in her kitchen. It takes teams of professional chemists to come up with good formulas and it is a full time job - there are no part time hustlers doing it. The most she may be doing is melting and mixing butters but even those can be purchased as bases too. Note - I am not an afroveda customer and never have been but if you're going to boycott a cosmetic retailer for using bases then you may as well boycott all of them from the indie sellers on youtube to proctor and gamble.


 
I'm boycotting for having to pay an exorbitant price for something that is not made by hand and from scratch. 

According to Afroveda's owner:

_"*The products are all made by hand, by me*, and it is truly a joy. I am somewhat of a perfectionist and 
do all I can to ensure that AfroVeda products are made with the utmost care and safety."_

Traditionally Ayurvedic. Naturally You.


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## SelahOco (Oct 8, 2010)

So the real headline here is that I can get 4 times the product for the same price!!!!

That is some serious WIN!!!


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## EllePixie (Oct 8, 2010)

hannan said:


> EllePixie  THANK YOU! This shady business is a no go for me.



You're very welcome. But thank Rastafarai too, I was reluctant to post this info here b/c I'm still new.


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## SelahOco (Oct 8, 2010)

So, who's gonna order?  

Do it, do it, do it, do it.....

I'm gonna look at Afroveda reviews to decide which bases to buy.    I love mixing stuff.

If I come out w/ my own line, will y'all purchase my "handcrafted" products?


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## Missi (Oct 8, 2010)

Premium ingredients at less than premium prices... Lotioncrafter will hand make anything you want ..they have their own bases by the ton..u can personalize the products u want...organic or regular.


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## bronzebomb (Oct 8, 2010)

I do not care if she uses another base.  I just want my purchases to be consistant.  Quite frankly her prices are similar to other lines.  I like AfroVeda; so it's not a dealbreaker "yet"

Once she stabilizes her products (like Oyin and Qhemet) I'll revisit the line.


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## westNDNbeauty (Oct 8, 2010)

I really hope, for the sake of good business practices, that she gave a gentle reminder that she was going to jack up the prices before she did. But judging by the Hair forums' reactions...probably not. 

I say turn lemons in to lemonade.  For those of you boycotting her product, you now have ample product (thanks to OP) and opportunity to figure your own concoction to create your substitution for  Afroveda.

(For purposes of neutrality, I've never tried it.)


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## Rastafarai (Oct 8, 2010)

EllePixie said:


> You're very welcome. But thank Rastafarai too, I was reluctant to post this info here b/c I'm still new.


 
You're not new no more, Elle   . Thanks a bizillion for spreading nothing short of the truth.


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## Neith (Oct 8, 2010)

Probably part of the reason the products are inconsistent is that she doesn't have a formula and may not know how to tweak the base + the additives correctly.  

For example when making conditioner, you have to have the correct proportions of oils, water, preservatives, emulsifiers, etc...

It's really not supposed to be a mish mash kind of thing.  Putting things together in the wrong percentages leads to oil and water separation, things going rancid, and inconsistency between batches.


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## DDTexlaxed (Oct 8, 2010)

Tiye said:


> Most manufacturers use bases purchased from outsource companies. No indie seller like afroveda is blending steralkonium chloride or phenoxyethanol, etc., in her kitchen. It takes teams of professional chemists to come up with good formulas and it is a full time job - there are no part time hustlers doing it. The most she may be doing is melting and mixing butters but even those can be purchased as bases too. Note - I am not an afroveda customer and never have been but if you're going to boycott a cosmetic retailer for using bases then you may as well boycott all of them from the indie sellers on youtube to proctor and gamble.


 

Thank you for this. I was confused because I am truly a person who does not make their own products. I have no idea about bases and components.  Hey, can I add shea butter to this mix and have something like Mala sells?  If so, I can be able to replace her hair butters.


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## Missi (Oct 8, 2010)

Queens Deep Conditoner - $25
     Ingredients: cholesterol conditioner; egg; peppermint oil; coconut oil, evoo.

I promise its hand made and eliminates breakage, and increases hair growth. 

I'm Tamara and I approve this post.

Jk....lol


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## EllePixie (Oct 8, 2010)

Actually we were searching like crazy trying to see if she uses a base for her butters, but couldn't find one - with the rice milk and other ingredients it doesn't look as "derived" as her conditioners. So, that I cannot say is a base - she _might_ make those which is why they are the most expensive. 

Wait...nm. That deep treatment that we posted the base for is CLEARLY expensive as heck...


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## DeepBluSea (Oct 8, 2010)

naturalmanenyc said:


> The use of bases does not bother me.
> 
> I am not an AfroVeda customer, never bought their products and never will; however, my mother uses bases for her products (NOT haircare but bodycare) and she literally does* hand prepare *everything. She uses the base (lotion, shower gel etc) and she adds color, scented oil etc. She also personally does the packaging and labeling.
> 
> Granted, my mom is not charging $25 for a $5 product/container and she also has no display at her store advertising wholly organic or handmade or specially formulated products.


 
ITA.  I don't think she is doing anything wrong.  Let's face it most of these hair products (and products in general) are over-priced.  Have yall ever tried to make your own hair products at home.  It can be time consuming.  Now, imagine you are making orders for hundreds of people.   The customer would be waiting months for orders.   She is taking a short cut, but I don't think it is a bad short cut.  People are willing to pay for convenience.   I think she will lose more customers over the price hike than over the use of bases.  

BTW, thanks for the info on where to purchase bases.  When I have more time, I may try my hand at making some personal products.


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## Neith (Oct 8, 2010)

DDTexlaxed said:


> Thank you for this. I was confused because I am truly a person who does not make their own products. I have no idea about bases and components.  Hey, can I add shea butter to this mix and have something like Mala sells?  If so, I can be able to replace her hair butters.



Yep, you should be able to.

Even if your mix isn't "perfect" you're making relatively small batches and probably using them up at a decent rate.  It still may take some trial and error, but its much less likely for anything major - like things spoiling/separating over time while being stored -  to go wrong with it.    

And of course, just try to get your measurements right if you want it to be consistent.


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## hannan (Oct 8, 2010)

Rastafarai said:


> I'm boycotting for having to pay an exorbitant price for something that is not made by hand and from scratch.
> 
> According to Afroveda's owner:
> 
> ...


 
 I'm done. 

Thanks for the heads up ladies. Perhaps I should just make up my own hair products for a FRACTION of the price. :scratchch


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## makeupvixen (Oct 8, 2010)

I am hoping to discuss this issue with some of the curly gals at our first meetup tomorrow. I will surly have a video to follow. Plus today's insult of having a so called 10% off Columbus Day Sale, LOL.


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## hannan (Oct 8, 2010)

makeupvixen said:


> I am hoping to discuss this issue with some of the curly gals at our first meetup tomorrow. I will surly have a video to follow. *Plus today's insult of having a so called 10% off Columbus Day Sale,* LOL.


 
 

i guess a small part of her feels guilty. 

ETA: makeupvixen Girl, I am watching your video and you are cracking me up!  Subscribed!


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## Leesh (Oct 8, 2010)

Rastafarai said:


> But charging me and other customers 5x as much when I can get an 8oz for $4 and some change?!
> 
> Nah son!


 
*Hmmm! That may be where "SHE" actually gets it from! Im just sayin', Never know!*


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## Kurlee (Oct 8, 2010)

I don't see the big deal. Companies/businesses don't have to disclose everything about their products. Isn't that "trade secrets"?  Aveda and Body Shop don't spell out exactly how they make their products either and after doing a research product on the Body Shop, let's just say, they aren't that "great".  I'm just as turned off by Mala as the rest of ya'll and will never be a customer of hers again, but I think all of this is kinda "extra".


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## hannan (Oct 8, 2010)

Kurlee said:


> I don't see the big deal. Companies/businesses don't have to disclose everything about their products. Isn't that "trade secrets"?  Aveda and Body Shop don't spell out exactly how they make their products either and after doing a research product on the Body Shop, let's just say, they aren't that "great".  I'm just as turned off by Mala as the rest of ya'll and will never be a customer of hers again, but I think all of this is kinda "extra".


 
I get what you're saying but she's claiming that she makes the products by hand. Maybe her definition is different than the rest of ours.


----------



## Theresamonet (Oct 8, 2010)

Does anyone know if KBB uses bases as well? If so, does anyone what bases she uses?


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## Myjourney2009 (Oct 8, 2010)

I found out about bases used in the "natural conditioners" when I was looking to purchase wheat protein, etc. I found the base that is used for my favorited leave-in,( I wont be trying to make it at home becuase the store brought one works just fine). Thank you OP for this site, I think I am going to purchase and add my own oils to the base of another conditioner I found on this site. 

The specific conditioner I am thinking of using is Moisturizing Conditioner. This specific base is used in a very, very, very popular "natural" line. The company just adds avocado butter and avocado oil to the base. I can add avocado oil to the base for a fraction of the cost. 

Side note: I have never used Afroveda, but I have seen the price jump and the videos that have followed.


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## MyAngelEyez~C~U (Oct 8, 2010)

DDTexlaxed said:


> Does anyone know for a fact Mala does this? I'm a bit confused. The original post shows a site where the conditioner is a base product with similar ingredients to one of Mala's conditioners.  It does not mean Mala herself is buying the same product and charging 5 times as much to sell it. Maybe I read it wrong.


 Frankly, it doesn't matter if she is or isn't. The point is that you can buy the bases for far cheaper than she's attempting to sell it to you. You'd literally have to be a raving idiot (IMO) to waste money on her products. I like to get the most for my money. PERIOD. And don't feel sorry for that woman. She knew the job was dangerous when she took it. You don't raise prices to cover costs (not a massive price hike like she did)...you utilize the fact that you are a minority small business owner (female AND black), write a business plan based on the popularity and current profitability of your business, and get a small business loan to expand your business. There isn't a bank in the world that wouldn't fund her with her proven profitability. She'd get a loan in a heartbeat. 

Frankly, I think she needs to take a business course or something.


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## janda (Oct 8, 2010)

Ok... where have I been? Why have I been spending so much money on products I could make myself for a fraction of the cost? Thanks for the info.


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## Leesh (Oct 8, 2010)

janda said:


> Ok... where have I been? Why have I been spending so much money on products I could make myself for a fraction of the cost? Thanks for the info.



*And, that would last for a very, very long time!*


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## An_gell (Oct 8, 2010)

Wow!! This Afroveda thing is getting crazy..lol!!! I'm glad this info has come to light because her stuff was next on my list to try not saying I won't but it's gone take some time due to the prices now.  I think I'm bout to go back to what I was doing in the beginning of my natural journery which was making my own hair products.  Just can't trust anybody anymore.


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## Kurlee (Oct 8, 2010)

hannan said:


> I get what you're saying but she's claiming that she makes the products by hand. Maybe her definition is different than the rest of ours.


 
I dunno, for me, it's not that serious. Formulating products really requires "chemist" knowledge. Her researching and getting a base, tweaking it, preserving it, packaging it, shipping it and making it her "own", doesn't come off as shady to me.  Most of the products we use come from bases and "base models" that are copied and tweaked. Marketing and capitalism isn't exactly about morality, ethics and honesty.  If it wasn't for her ridiculous price hikes, I would still be a customer.  Her formula upon "tweaking", works well.  I have worked with bases before and it's not as easy as people think. The proportions have to be right and it's a very fine line with proportions before you can ruin the entire thing. That takes work to figure out. I dunno, it just doesn`t outrage me and I would rather use products like these `natural` lines (not Afroveda) that are bought from wholesalers (the same one the big corporations use alongside work with chemists to tweak) and support black businesses vs. Procter and Gamble who don`t give a damn.


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## Neith (Oct 8, 2010)

Many people make their conditioners from scratch.  You do not need a chemist.  

Maybe it's not common knowledge and in no way am I saying it's very easy... but there are equations (look up HLB system) and specific steps that one would have to take to make an emulsion.

Many people do it without anything besides the raw ingredients, a digital scale, a hand blender and suitable pots/containers.  It's not rocket science, although having knowledge about the ingredients and the exact steps that need to be taken is necessary.  

I'm not mad that people used the base.  I'm mad anyone who lies about their product (calling it hand made is just a straight up lie) and repackage cheap items made by someone else to charge you an arm and a leg for it.


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## SUPER SWEET (Oct 8, 2010)

EllePixie said:


> Yea, I mean, I don't have beef with HairVeda at all...someone just wanted to know who is using bases so I named them. Brendita's BBW is a MESS though...for a lot of her products she doesn't even ADD things, she just repackages the base and sells it as her own. Then, when you go to the About Brendita section she talks about how she did all this research and made her own products. I wanted her Phat Head Coconut Pudding, but it's actually just the Essential Wholesale Silk Creme, which is $11 for 16oz while the repackaged product is $8 for 6oz...
> 
> Brendita Ingredients:
> Organic Aloe Juice, Organic Coconut Oil, Emulsifying Wax, Palm Stearic Acid, Kosher Vegetable Glycerin, Organic Jojoba Oil, Organic Grapeseed Oil, Organic Avocado Oil, Organic Witch Hazel, Vitamin E, Phenoxyethanol, Hydrolyzed Silk, Xanthan Gum, Organic Black Willowbark Extract, Neem Oil, Rosemary Oleoresin, Citric Acid
> ...


 
You just saved me...i was going to buy from Brendita!


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## Kurlee (Oct 8, 2010)

Neith said:


> Many people make their conditioners from scratch.  You do not need a chemist.
> 
> Maybe it's not common knowledge and in no way am I saying it's very easy... but there are equations (look up HLB system) and specific steps that one would have to take to make an emulsion.
> 
> ...


 
It's really not that simple, especially when ur dealing with certain ingredients that can alter pH, or polysaccharides, or gelling agents (carbomer), etc.  Some formulas, if they drop below a certain pH by adding certain ingredients can turn from a thick gel/cream to soup, just from a few too may drops.  Others can curdle like rotten milk, etc.  I'm just saying, it's not as easy as everyone is making it sound.  If it was, we would all just "whip up" our own products.  I totally get that people want to roast her right now because of her BS lately, but I think all this is reaching and going too far.  

Everyone lies in some way about their products.  No one is gonna say, "this cost me 2 dollars to make and I'm charging you 20 and umm I took x ideas from y place, but umm still waste your money to make me rich please ." CHI flat irons don't cost 200 dollars to make, but we buy it.  Designer clothes don't cost 1/10 of what they are sold for and sometimes are just a matter of switching labels and "tweaking" between supposed higher and lower brands. IPods and Macbooks dont cost what they charge for them, but the marketing makes us think it's "worth it", so we blow our money on things we THINK are worth it and make OTHER people rich.

Capitalism = exploiting others to make money. Few winners (the makers/exploiters) and lots of ripped of "losers", the bamboozled consumer. I don't wrong Mala for TRYING to get in the game, I just won't be helping her rip me off.  Miss Jessie's did the same thing and now they are millionaires and in major magazines and selling in Target.  I really don't think it's possible to be successful in business without adopting these types of principles. You just have to be smart and not let the consumer find out, what the real deal is.  The reasons why corporations have such an iron grip is because they have the money to keep their "secrets", formulas, etc undercover and we the consumer don't have alternatives, so they can do what the hell they want, whether we like it or not.


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## LittleLuxe (Oct 8, 2010)

Shame. It's things like this that make you rethink that whole supporting 'our' business thing. Not to say I expect you to plant aloe and add it to your product from scratch but don't sit there smiling at me with your mixing cap on with pics of you inside your kitchen when you're really buying a damn conditioner off the net like me and adding stuff to it. 

Disgusting. 

At least when I make a purchase from Kenra or Mizani I have 0 expectation from the company nor are they trying to fool me. We both know it's full of chemicals but this foolishness right here...blech. 

Some of these online retailers better watch it or they'll find themselves extinct. I am nobody's fool. Find another way to pay your bills before you try to run game on me.


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## LongCurlz (Oct 8, 2010)

Ive recently stopped buying conditioners I make my own stuff from the condtioner base hairveda uses...its alot cheaper and I can add my own favorite ingredients to it.

Its definantly not easy, I have had to throw away plenty of batches for messing it up and the product turning to mush, its not as easy as people think

But you cannot knock companies for using conditioner bases most of them do, its a business so of course they are gonna find ways to get there product ingredients as cheap as possible.


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## CocoBunny (Oct 8, 2010)

Kurlee said:


> I dunno, for me, it's not that serious. Formulating products really requires "chemist" knowledge. Her researching and getting a base, tweaking it, preserving it, packaging it, shipping it and making it her "own", doesn't come off as shady to me.  Most of the products we use come from bases and "base models" that are copied and tweaked. Marketing and capitalism isn't exactly about morality, ethics and honesty.  If it wasn't for her ridiculous price hikes, I would still be a customer.  Her formula upon "tweaking", works well.  I have worked with bases before and it's not as easy as people think. The proportions have to be right and it's a very fine line with proportions before you can ruin the entire thing. That takes work to figure out. I dunno, it just doesn`t outrage me and I would rather use products like these `natural` lines (not Afroveda) that are bought from wholesalers (the same one the big corporations use alongside work with chemists to tweak) and support black businesses vs. Procter and Gamble who don`t give a damn.



I for one enjoy being outraged.  But some how I just cant get worked up about this.  Free enterprise means she can charge what she wants for her products.  I can buy it or not.  If she starts with a base and adds her own twist to it. More power to her and I can buy it or not.

Such a simple concept.


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## Noir (Oct 9, 2010)

The VAST majority of small hair companies, that are popular on LHCF work with bases. Not a secret to those of us in the industry, hence the reason why you NEVER catch me posting in those threads. I read some of them and have to sit here biting my tongue.  




Kurlee said:


> Her researching and getting a base, tweaking it, preserving it, packaging it, shipping it and making it her "own", doesn't come off as shady to me.


However I agree 100% with Kurlee. I don't consider using a base dishonest, unless of course you are claiming that it is your own formulation and is handmade. Indie beauty/small business owners debate this subject all the time -- Can you still claim _handmade _while using a base? Some believe yes... many (inc. myself) say no. Some formulators/manufactures who create products using a base prefer to claim _*handcrafted*_, instead of handmade. Whatever  ALL of my forumations are made from scratch because that is what I find the most joy in... The formulating; the research and development;  the trial and error, ALL of it.

Personally, I have my own issues with the likes of afroveda, hairveda etc. and not because they use bases (but that's a whole 'nother story). The only popular 'handmade' company posted about here that I trust is Qhemet. I know that she creates her products from scratch, her products are of high quality and PRESERVED. Most of all she is honest about her ingredients; unlike most of popular so-called handmade lines on here.


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## An_gell (Oct 9, 2010)

For the members that really want to purchase and stock up on her butters and creams if you go to her site and click on locations there are websites for the stores that carry her products and Sage Natural(something) has an ebay store that has her butters for pretty cheap, with the 2 oz sizes running for $6.50.  The other sites were sold out.  I think everybody that likes her products are hitting up the stores that are still caring the products for the old price...


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## Noir (Oct 9, 2010)

Tiye said:


> Most manufacturers use bases purchased from outsource companies. No indie seller like afroveda is blending steralkonium chloride or phenoxyethanol, etc., in her kitchen. It takes teams of professional chemists to come up with good formulas and it is a full time job - there are no part time hustlers doing it.



Tiye  Hey, just wanted to chime in and mention that this is absolutely incorrect. 

As I stated in my previous post, I make all of my formulations, including really complicated emulsions from scratch, using raw ingredients and I started in my kitchen. I am not an exception either. The  majority of people I know actually create original products, and don't use bases.  Once you have a basic understanding of emulsions,  hydrophilic-lipophilic balance (hlb system), preservatives etc. you can create almost anything. Most of the 'natural' companies we see today started off in their kitchens, including Lush and Carols Daughter...... 

ETA: In fact, I have Stearalkonium Chloride (a cationic quaternary/conditioning agent that helps to reduce static and friction) and a 3 huge bottles of phenoxyethanol (preservative) in my cupboard right now.  The phenoxyethanol I was using just today as it is the main presevrative that I use, because it doesn't contain parabens or formaldehyde.


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## VidaStarr (Oct 9, 2010)

I'm just glad to know that all those products that I thought I couldn't afford.... i now know that i can afford those products in bulk lol.


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## JFemme (Oct 9, 2010)

Noir said:


> This is absolutely incorrect.
> 
> As I stated before, I make all of my formulations including really complicated emulsions from scratch, using raw ingredients and I started in my kitchen. I am not an exception either. The  majority of people I know actually create original products and don't use bases.  Once you have a basic understanding of emulsions,  hydrophilic-lipophilic balance (hlb system), preservatives etc. you can create almost anything. Most of the 'natural' companies we see today started off in their kitchens, including Lush and Carols Daughter......
> 
> In fact, I have Stearalkonium Chloride (a cationic quaternary/conditioning agent that helps to reduce static and friction) and a 3 huge bottles of *phenoxyethanol *in my cupboard right now.  The phenoxyethanol I was using just today as it is the only presevrative that I use, because it doesn't contain parabens ot formaldehyde.



Something to consider, perhaps... 

Apparently, phenoxyethanol is no lesser evil than parabens. While it’s generally non-irritating and formaldehyde-free, it doesn’t mean it’s any better than parabens. Here’s why.

Meet phenoxyethanol, or ethylene glycol monophenyl ether. Already doesn’t sound too good, does it?

It’s really troubling that phenoxyethanol, glycolic ether that was once believed to be non-toxic, is becoming a “safe” alternative to parabens.

However, several animal studies clearly demonstrate toxicity of phenoxyethanol, which causes damaging effects on the brain and the nervous system, even at moderate concentrations. As a cosmetic ingredient, phenoxyethanol is restricted in Japan and the European Union. Even the U.S. EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) data sheets show “chromosomal changes and genetic mutation effects in testing as well as testicular atrophy and reproductive damage in mice.”

In cosmetic formulations, phenoxyethanol is used to kill bacteria and stabilize the formulation. It’s often combined with polyquaterniums to balance its acidity. While it’s theoretically possible to derive phenoxyethanol from natural sources, beauty industry prefers a cheap synthetic phenoxyethanol that can be bought very cheaply from China.

Phenoxyethanol: Preservative with Dirty Past


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## EllePixie (Oct 9, 2010)

Noir said:


> The VAST majority of small hair companies, that are popular on LHCF work with bases. Not a secret to those of us in the industry, hence the reason why you NEVER catch me posting in those threads. I read some of them and have to sit here biting my tongue.
> 
> However I agree 100% with Kurlee.* I don't consider using a base dishonest, unless of course you are claiming that it is your own formulation and is handmade. *Myself and fellow  indie beauty/small business owners debate this subject all the time -- Can you still claim _handmade _while using a base? Some believe yes... many (inc. myslef) say no. Some formulators/manufactures who create products using a base prefer to claim _*hand crafted*_, instead of handmade. Whatever. ALL of my forumations are made from scratch because that is what I find the most joy in... The formulating; the research and development;  the trial and error, ALL of it.
> 
> Personally, I have my own issues with the likes of afroveda, hairveda etc. and not because they use bases but that's a whole 'nother story. The only 'handmade' company that I trust to buy from, that is popular on here is Qhemet. I know that she creates her products from scratch, and her products are of good quality and PRESERVED. Most of all she is honest about her ingredients; unlike most of popular indie lines on here.



Exactly, ITA with you. Some people are missing the point. NOTHING is wrong with using a base - I'd probably still buy it if you make it smell yummy and add some stuff I like. LYING about using a base and saying your products are handmade is an ISSUE, as you stated in the bolded. Not disclosing the use of a base, but not saying that the product is handmade, is fine. I haven't seen anyone on this thread outraged about bases in general - it's the blatant dishonestly that's got folks all riled up.


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## Noir (Oct 9, 2010)

LongCurlz said:


> Its definantly not easy, I have had to throw away plenty of batches for messing it up and the product turning to mush, its not as easy as people think


LongCurlz  That is because you are breaking the emulsion. Never add more than 5% of your own ingredient or you will ruin the batch. If you want help with this just let me know.


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## ladytee2 (Oct 9, 2010)

I have never used afroveda.  I have ordered a few things online from other places.  I have worked retail and to be fair to afroveda and the other lines.  These businesses are no different from Alberto culver,  Proctor and Gamble and every other hair care company.  It's a business.  They want to make a profit and chase the American dream.  You would be hard pressed to find any product in any store that's not marked up atleast 200%.  And I think that's being generous.  Ther is no way you are going to get any product that's 100% organic without any preservative that's going to sit in any bathroom and last for any length of time.   I don't purchase a lot of high priced items because my purse just ain't that deep.  I'm not going to be mad at someone making a living by starting their own business.  Personally I would like to start my own business.  I wish more women and men of color would start their own and start creating gerational wealth for our children and grand children.   Now that poor customer service and inconsistent product is another story.


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## kmn1980 (Oct 9, 2010)

EllePixie said:


> Are you serious? Perhaps this will convince you...
> 
> This is Mala's description of the conditioner:
> *The pH of our hair mask compacts the cuticle layer of the hair, which will result in shiny, bouncy hair that is not weighed down.* *The conditioning ingredients form a protective layer over the cortex where the cuticle cells have broken away, which creates a protective layer or coating over these rough edges.* The protective coating created with our Ashlii Amala Hair Mask *also seals in moisture and and reduces static electricity.*
> ...


 
Good Golly Miss Molly!

I've never bought anything from Afroveda but I surely appreciate the whistle blowers in this thread leading me to Essential Wholesale.


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## afrikurl (Oct 9, 2010)

Afroveda-gate is getting very interesting. Lord knows I don't need no more conditioner but I wanna buy the bases just cause.


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## HappilyLiberal (Oct 9, 2010)

This chick might as well just close up shop.  Her business is DONE!  I give it another week or two before Afroveda becomes the new Shima on this board.  Then it is going to be time to break out the
adlock2: adlock2: adlock2: adlock2: adlock2:!


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## Noir (Oct 9, 2010)

Hey JFemme  I am a subscriber to that blog and while I enjoy many of the posts, I must admit that there is a lot of misinformation on there (I just finished reading her blog post re. grapeseed extract being a preservative which is complete bull, but I digress) I always make sure to gather my information from reliable sources and not from blogs which contain copied and pasted information, without thorough research of the facts. I have spent years researching preservatives and other alternatives, and at this present time, I am the most comfortable with phenoxyethanol   I am able to use it at 0.5%, it is modified from organic matter, non irritating and it is what my clients request (I do private label for businesses). 

Unfortunately, there are NO natural broad-spectrum preservatives on the market right now, and to forgo the use of preservatives in a _hydrous_ (with water) formulation in NOT an option. Once you make a product combining oils/butters/humectants/extracts etc. WITH liquid (water, hydrosols, aloe vera) it becomes bug food and will begin to grow microorganisms VERY rapidly. 

As I mentioned in another thread, staph and fungal infections are not pretty  and  I have seen with my own eyes the harm a non-preserved lotion can do to a person. I don't want to be responsible for seriously harming somebody (God forbid) or risk being sued or fined. 

So, the options are preserve the formulation with the safest and lowest amount of preservative or risk creating and selling a product with the potential to grow mold,  bacteria, microbes, yeast and fungi 

I like to put things in perspective. Synthetic doesn't necessarily mean toxic; and natural doesn't always mean safe. There are plenty of herbs and essential oils out there which are natural, but highly toxic and can kill you.... and as you know staph and e-coli, are all VERY natural, but I still don't want them in my lotion or hair conditioner lol

My issue is not with bases or synthetic ingredients but the dishonesty of some of those companies; large and small. If you use a base don't claim handmade and if you use synthetics don't claim 100% or ALL natural, because it is misleading.


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## Neith (Oct 9, 2010)

Noir said:


> This is absolutely incorrect.
> 
> As I stated before, I make all of my formulations including really complicated emulsions from scratch, using raw ingredients and I started in my kitchen. I am not an exception either. The  majority of people I know actually create original products and don't use bases.  Once you have a basic understanding of emulsions,  hydrophilic-lipophilic balance (hlb system), preservatives etc. you can create almost anything. Most of the 'natural' companies we see today started off in their kitchens, including Lush and Carols Daughter......
> 
> In fact, I have Stearalkonium Chloride (a cationic quaternary/conditioning agent that helps to reduce static and friction) and a 3 huge bottles of phenoxyethanol in my cupboard right now.  The phenoxyethanol I was using just today as it is the only presevrative that I use, because it doesn't contain parabens ot formaldehyde.



lol, thank you!

Besides me stating that no... it's not easy, but it's entirely possible to make conditioner from scratch and be a "normal" person, I just feel like people don't believe me or something.  

Also, if people feel comfortable buying from someone who they know for a fact lies about the formulation of their product... that's your choice.

IMO, that's shady.  Not trying to stuff my opinion down anyone's throat... but that's just my take on it.   



Now for a different topic... preservatives.

I would NEVER buy a product that didn't have sufficient preservatives.  The positives far outweigh the negatives.  Some really nasty things can brew and multiply - and cause immediate health problems/fungal infections/bacterial infections - in unpreserved product.

Also, the unpreserved product would have a relatively SHORT shelf life.  No such thing as safely having it on your shelf for weeks to months.  

Having no preservative or a lower quality preservative is like wishing for a law suit.  imo

There is nothing natural that I know of that can safely preserve water and oil emulsions.  I wish there was.


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## Neith (Oct 9, 2010)

Noir said:


> Hey JFemme  I am a subscriber to that blog and while I enjoy many of the posts, I must admit that there is a lot of misinformation on there (I just finished reading her blog post re. grapeseed extract being a preservative which is complete bull, but I digress) I always make sure to gather my information from reliable sources and not from blogs which contain copied and pasted information, without thorough research of the facts. I have spent years researching preservatives and other alternatives, and at this present time, I am the most comfortable with phenoxyethanol   I am able to use it at less than 0.5%, it is modified from organic matter, non irritating and it is what my clients request (I do private label for businesses).
> *
> Unfortunately, there are NO natural broad-spectrum preservatives on the market right now, and to forgo the use of preservatives in a hydrous (with water) formulation in NOT an option. Once you make a product combining oils/butters/humectants/extracts etc. WITH liquid (water, hydrosols, aloe vera) it becomes bug food and will begin to grow microorganisms VERY rapidly.
> **
> ...



You said it much better than I did. lol


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## Forever in Bloom (Oct 9, 2010)

Rastafarai said:


> I'm boycotting for having to pay an exorbitant price for something that is not made by hand and from scratch.
> 
> According to Afroveda's owner:
> 
> ...


 
To the bolded, she needs to change that to "hand mixed by me", 'cause baby, it ain't hand made


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## Noir (Oct 9, 2010)

@ Neith ITA with you. 

And yes you absolutely can make a conditioner from scratch in your kitchen lol.You don't have to be a chemist or have a PhD. It just takes a LOT of research and trial and error. I can tell that you already have a basic understanding of emulsions from your previous posts and the sites you posted. Most if not all of the women here could do it.


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## blackbarbietea (Oct 9, 2010)

naturalmanenyc said:


> The use of bases does not bother me.
> 
> I am not an AfroVeda customer, never bought their products and never will; however, my mother uses bases for her products (NOT haircare but bodycare) and she literally does* hand prepare *everything. She uses the base (lotion, shower gel etc) and she adds color, scented oil etc. She also personally does the packaging and labeling.
> 
> Granted, my mom is not charging $25 for a $5 product/container and she also has no display at her store advertising wholly organic or handmade or specially formulated products.




I bet you Lush does the same thing. Everyone stop crying about bases. She should be called out on her price hike and lying that she created everything from scratch or something. Like she squeezed the aloe vera gel out of a plant. LMAO.


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## EllePixie (Oct 9, 2010)

I don't know why people are coming in here telling people to calm down. If you want to buy it go 'head, do you. People should at least know what they're buying and be informed...But I guess ignorance is bliss.


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## blackbarbietea (Oct 9, 2010)

I'm just saying to focus on what matters.

AKA- Getting condish for cheap.
AKA- Her misleading customers of her skills and acting as if she gathered the ingredients and mixed every single one herself, adding in her own preserves. all that bs.
AKA- Plagiarizing the description for another website for the SAME PRODUCT.

Not the fact that she's using a base.


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## Vintageglam (Oct 9, 2010)

OP to tell the truth on the one hand you are on this board vehemently defending one vendor and then starting a thread against another ( correct me if I am wrong?) 

I have no interest in either company and really couldn't care about then either way, however find your selectivity somewhat confusing.


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## blackbarbietea (Oct 9, 2010)

PositivelyRadiant said:


> OP to tell the truth on the one hand you are on this board vehemently defending one vendor and then starting a thread against another ( correct me if I am wrong?)
> 
> I have no interest in either company and really couldn't care about then either way, however find your selectivity somewhat confusing.


 
Who is she defending? -fail on my scan through post skills.-


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## HeavenlySkies (Oct 9, 2010)

Wow so on top of just putting Essentials stuff in her own packages she stole their descriptions too? lol


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## empressri (Oct 9, 2010)

I'll say this, I really don't give a damn about bases. If it works for me, it works for me! If they're figured out how to make a base even better so that I love it, then yippee.

BUT...from my knowledge...I'll say it like this. When you're mixing up stuff at home, YES you have to order ingredients in bulk...but. When you're paying higher prices for products, you're paying for it to me made in a lab, tested by chemists who make sure everything is right before it even gets packaged to be sold.

Joe Blow making something in their kitchen...I guess you sort of take a risk with using it because there are TONS of lines out there from kitchenticians that jacked up folks hair cause some just don't know what the hell they're doing and ingredients that you think are safe ended up corroding folks hair. But if you're making stuff at home, the price needs to reflect that. 

Hairveda is not expensive at all to me and works. Again I don't care if she uses bases the stuff works! But to charge someone some crazy behind exorbitant price is insane when I know you're supposed to be charging less. And it's about the almighty dollar but guess what, you just won't get mine. I'll be damned to get up and go to work and work crazy overtime talking to the crazy fruitloops in NYC to blow my money on something that should cost 2x less than it does.

There's some new commercial out asking would you buy a sandwich that costs $5000? Or a drink that costs $4000? Or something like that. Same principal.


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## Mrs. Verde (Oct 9, 2010)

Noir - how much preservative should you add to a mixture?  Example, 8oz mixture. 1 tablespoon of preservative?  Thanks.


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## miss stress (Oct 9, 2010)

I took a look around that site and its great! It even tells you how to run your business! Whn I move back to the states, I might mix some things up and peddle them for pocket money


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## BostonMaria (Oct 9, 2010)

I've always know that most online hair companies use bases and an outside vendor to make the actual product. The only thing that gets me mad is when these companies have a sale, take a month to send it to you and when you ask why it's taking so long the reply is "this is hand made" the truth is you created a sale with products you didn't have in your warehouse. You placed a bulk order with a manufacturer with the money I sent you and until those products arrive you can't send them to me. THAT pisses me off. Don't lie about it.


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## Rastafarai (Oct 9, 2010)

PositivelyRadiant said:


> OP to tell the truth on the one hand you are on this board vehemently defending one vendor and then starting a thread against another ( correct me if I am wrong?)
> 
> I have no interest in either company and really couldn't care about then either way, however find your selectivity somewhat confusing.


 
Not sure what KBB has to do with this thread or why you're even bringing that up into this discussion. 

Whatever your opinion, this thread helped provide members and lurkers cheaper alternatives to products being purported as handmade. It also brought to light the lies and plagiarism of one company. We are now better informed consumers and nothing but good can come out of that.


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## Neith (Oct 9, 2010)

Mrs. Verde said:


> Noir - how much preservative should you add to a mixture?  Example, 8oz mixture. 1 tablespoon of preservative?  Thanks.



I know you didn't ask me, lol.  but it depends on the preservative used and the formulation of the product.

It's generally less than 2%  Sometimes much lower.


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## LittleLuxe (Oct 9, 2010)

blackbarbietea said:


> I'm just saying to focus on what matters.
> 
> AKA- Getting condish for cheap.
> AKA- Her misleading customers of her skills and acting as if she gathered the ingredients and mixed every single one herself, adding in her own preserves. all that bs.
> ...


 
Exactly. Believe me it's not just the use of bases that are ticking people off it's the whole dang shebang. Let's be real here a lot of these businesses exist only because of hair boards and while I'm sure they're expanding and growing to reach new market if every single lady on a hair board stopped purchasing their products the company would fail faster than you could blink. 

This isn't Loreal or Pantene which...to be frank probably don't give two hoots about us as customers these are women and companies which are created and basically depending on us for a goodwill customer-business relationship. Without us they don't have a business and in exchange for their hard work we expect them to provide what they claim. We're basically giving them the trust we've stopped putting into bigger companies. 

Based on that trust and the fact we're SUPPOSED to have an equal and productive relationship I know I and other ladies aren't expecting to be played for fools. 
1. Your formulation game is phucked up, you're not even on top of that. 
2. You raise prices because you need the money to run your business more effectively...and yet the last price hike didn't do anything.
3. Come to find out the product you claimed to need extra money to create is basically pre-made with you just adding a few ingredients.
4. Even with it being pre-made you're STILL not on top of your formulation game.
5. And last but not least for all that extra money you're getting you can't even write YOUR own description??

So on top of lying you're lazy too. 

I'm not saying don't use bases, I still love some products for these companies and appreciate what they do for my hair and thus I'd support them. But this whole nonsense with pretending that you were so desperate for healthy hair products you slaved over creating products, invested your time and money and finally invented a product which you wished to share with black women...that's just lying and trying to play the only people supporting you for fools. Considering you're a small business and we're a tight-knit community that's not smart and could result in you getting punked like Mala and suddenly needing to have a Columbus Day Sale out of nowhere. 

Also someone mentioned there's actually a cone in her product which she just decided to remove from the original ingredient list? Now I know some ladies on here are very serious about their cones and the fact that when you invent your product in your mind and the reality don't match the label you would just magically erase it....? Uh uh, if I was into that mess I'd be using BSS products all day. That makes me immediately cross you off the list because I don't know what else you'd lie about to protect your image.

Thusly...bye bye Afroveda, I knew you when.


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## andromeda (Oct 9, 2010)

First of all, elle you are ON IT, esp in that NC thread! 

Honestly, the bases thing doesn't surprise me at all.  Anyone with a basic understanding of economics and business 101 - opportunity costs, economies of scale, marketing, the suggestive effect of certain buzzwords, branding and pricing - shouldn't be surprised.  One of reasons why I say it's all about ingredients (and technique).

I've never purchased from afroveda and never really took an interest in the brand. Based on the revelations in this thread and the other thread, including the consulting report, it seems like Afroveda has gone above and beyond the industry norm and her inconsistent products, apparent plagiarism poor customer service and recent price hike just add insult to injury.

I don't think business should have to disclose the use of bases but I do think it's ideal for consumers to make informed decisions.  If the knowledge necessary to make such informed decisions is facilitated by some googling or by message boards, so be it.

In general, I don't see the exorbitant prices thing as being that heinous.  Some consumers place a premium on the "prestige" implied by certain packaging, branding, message, personal story and gussied-up ingredients, and companies are more than willing to capitalize on that.  I think afroveda probably could have gotten away with charging their current prices in the first place, esp with the right branding, decent product and customer service. But raising the price was a no-go because the consumer had already formed an opinion of the brand, which was based on lower pricing. 

To me, this controversy brings attention to larger issues: consumer awareness, capitalizing on a trend, and being product-oriented vs being knowledge-oriented.  

Consumer Awareness - People should understand the underlying factors and implications of cost vs. price and act according to what they value.  Consider the impact of your dollar on a micro and macro level, in the short and long term.  When presented with seemingly shady business practices, try to figure out to what extent that practice is the norm.

Capitalizing on a trend - the demand for natural and natural hair-oriented products is on the rise.  Such demand will attract unethical and inexperienced business people.

Being product-oriented vs. knowledge-oriented - I was thinking about this the other day.  Whenever we say that anyone who wants healthy hair will google and find this site, we underestimate just how much people have been indoctrinated into the product-oriented mentality.  Instead of having the root cause as a starting point, people use the product aisle as a starting point, looking for products which promise to solve an ill-defined problem.  I know I discovered this site in the process of looking on the web for reviews/alternatives to an extremely overpriced product that I thought would improve my hair.  In fact, my decision to go natural was partly based on information that I found on a retailer's website in the process of looking for products.  Even if we do have a good understanding of haircare, we are susceptible to these shenanigans when we are so product-oriented and invested in the brand image of the companies that we patronize.   .


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## andromeda (Oct 9, 2010)

btw, this thread shows up on the third page of results for the google search "afroveda" and on the first page of results for the google search "afroveda ingredients"



Noir said:


> *Personally, I have my own issues with the likes of afroveda, hairveda etc. and not because they use bases (but that's a whole 'nother story).* The only popular 'handmade' company posted about here that I trust is Qhemet. I know that she creates her products from scratch, her products are of high quality and PRESERVED. Most of all she is honest about her ingredients; unlike most of popular so-called handmade lines on here.



I'd like to know more re: the bolded but I understand if you don't want to derail this thread.  yep: I've been wanting to start an industry insider thread for the haircare and hairstyling industries.


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## *fabulosity* (Oct 9, 2010)

I wonder if now that people know that they are using bases will they start omitting ingredients or scrambling up the order of ingredients (can they do that legally?) to throw people off....?


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## Bun Mistress (Oct 9, 2010)

I havetried AV and HV in the past and wasn't wowed. Also the shipping cost and wait weren't what I wanted.  But the price was ok, then. But 21.50 for 8oz of conditioner. You can go to the mall right now and get an 8oz tube of Dry remedy from aveda. No shipping charge.


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## Charz (Oct 9, 2010)

Oh Goodness....the secret has finally came out.

I knew that one company in particular was using bases. That's why I've neglected to do a review on the products out of fear of my honestly surfacing and drama starting.

*I'm sorry but if I am spending 20 bucks for a conditioner or 16 bucks for a moisturizer, I want it to not be from a base.* That is why I can look the other way with Hairveda, because she ain't charging those kind of prices with her bases.

That's why I really like Qhemet and KBB (hair milks). I know they do not use bases, Qhemet in particular. Not sure with the rest of KBB's products. Oh and Oyin doesn't use bases either.

A tell-tell sign is when a company has like 30 products and just started out. 7 conditioners, a skincare line etc.

I am checking on if my Jessicurl WDT is made with a base. If it is, I will not be repurchasing.


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## La Colocha (Oct 9, 2010)

I appreciate this thread because i want to be informed about what i am spending my money on. I want the choice of what i will put up with and what i wont. I know a few companies that use bases and i won't say any names because its not about them but i choose to buy from them because they are cheap and have good products that i do not have the time or money to come up with myself. I have mixed up a few things on my own and it is hard to get a good consistant product with even a few ingredients. Others should want to be informed also and make their own choices, i don't have money to throw away do you?


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## SelahOco (Oct 9, 2010)

I think I might purchase some of the base and make Christmas presents for people out of it.  Make little labels with their names on it and customize the scents to their liking.

That could be really cute!


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## IDareT'sHair (Oct 9, 2010)

The thing for me is I know Full Well that I am not trying to be a Mix-Master, Mixologist or Mixtress, so long story short, I ain't mixing nothing.  It's just not happening.  

I guess I could buy a Liter of a Base......and then what????

There are several companies that I purchase from, that I've known (for a while) used a base to make their product(s).  

However, overall, I am pleased with both the product and the level of customer service I have received.  Therefore, I continue purchasing. 

They have not raised their prices unproportionately, have _frequent sales/discounts_ and always has some type of _special_ going on, on a regular basis.

So, taking all these things into consideration, helps me to make an informed financial decision to continue to spend money with these companies.

Poor Customer Service, Lying about raising prices and & general _Dishonesty_, for me are deal-breakers.erplexed


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## cutiebe2 (Oct 9, 2010)

This is all crazy. Im glad I never ordered from Afroveda.

But lets keep all the companies straight. I wouldn't want us to assume things about other companies without knowledge. Is Hairveda being accused too?

KBB's store is actually around the corner from my father's house. I walk there are look around for fun all the time. I have seen them making products from hand. Blending stuff in a clender, whipping them up in a huge bowl, and then packaging. It could be that a base is included in that but seeing as I saw much of the process with my own eyes I will stand by them at least. 

I wonder what the Afroveda owner has to say about all this!


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## Noir (Oct 9, 2010)

Moustacy said:


> Wow so on top of just putting Essentials stuff in her own packages she stole their descriptions too? lol


From my knowledge Kayla (the founder of Essential Wholesale) has no problem with companies using her product copy (I will have to double check with her though). Although I have no idea why Afroveda would even consider using the exact same copy from a site that any ol' tom, dick or sally can google erplexed 



empressri said:


> BUT...from my knowledge...I'll say it like this. When you're mixing up stuff at home, YES you have to order ingredients in bulk...but. When you're paying higher prices for products, you're paying for it to me made in a lab, tested by chemists who make sure everything is right before it even gets packaged to be sold.


There are tons brands, big and small that are not made in labs. Lush still formulate their creations in kitchens using muffin pans and cake mixers for their products lol. 



Mrs. Verde said:


> Noir - how much preservative should you add to a mixture?  Example, 8oz mixture. 1 tablespoon of preservative?  Thanks.


 Mrs. Verde Neith is correct. It depends on the preservative used, the type of formulation and the amount (by weight). When working with formulations that require a preservative you always use percentages. 

However... If you plan on purchasing a base, then there is no need to worry about adding a preservative because they are already preserved. So just add some your favorite oil/butter/ fragrance or whatever and you're good to go 



*fabulosity* said:


> I wonder if now that people know that they are using bases will they start omitting ingredients or scrambling up the order of ingredients *(can they do that legally?)* to throw people off....?


 Absolutely not! They are misleading their customers and breaking labeling laws.

andromeda I'll PM you re. your question.


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## EllePixie (Oct 9, 2010)

Noir I thought that the concept of ingredients being listed in order of the proportion used wasn't regulated. I have seen some companies in stores list all of their herbal extracts at the top but I was pretty sure that wasn't the bulk of the product. I could be wrong regarding the regulation but for small companies I feel it would be fairly easy for them to stick their added ingredients in the middle and fall under the radar. A lot of companies that use bases leave out ingredients like TEA.


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## Kurlee (Oct 9, 2010)

After reading threads here and on NC, I dunno how to feel about this whole thing. First off, I think many did not understand the P&G reference and ran with it, but it's cool, since it's clear they didn't understand what I meant.   . . . 

All this that Mala and other companies do is not new and very common in almost *every industry*. When I made reference to those big corporations, I was trying to show that they do the same things but have the money to not be "exposed" (lawyers, patents, the "name" to hide behind and bolster false confidence) and have the money for chemists to alter and tweak their products and test and match their claims.  Every so often there are scandals, but they take care of those really quick and usually bounce back really quick.  

The nature of capitalism is dishonest, so I dunno, what Mala is doing is what 99% of very successful business people do; exploit others and get rich off it. The reason I made reference to P&G is because they aren't checking for black hair care, like that.  They may have a "line", but it's laden with crappy ingredients, nice smells, weave wearing models and pretty bottles. It doesn't at all address the true concerns that we have about our hair, but further perpetuates the insecurities and stereotypes we have about our hair.  Not to mention, even though they have the money to, significant research is not being done to really understand our hair.

That's where these "kitchen" lines come in. They KNOW our hair and concerns because it grows out of their heads.  They research and some use the boards. There is no way in hell I could find a commercial product that has so many rich ingredients like KCCC and the like have. NO way in hell.  I say all of this to say, we all know there is a void in the black hair care industry, so how wrong is it for someone to research, find good ingredients that are effective and people want and NEED and make it into a product, with the help of bases, etc? They are catering to their niche, so if the ingredients are still good and the products are effective, how mad can you really be (besides the price hike), because if you own an iPod any other consumer goods, you're getting tricked and overpriced the exact same way.

I remembering doing a project in a business class a few years ago and we had to choose a business and basically break down everything about them from A to Z.  Because I'm into the hair stuff, I chose a wholesaler and after spending lots of time there, learning who some of their clients were, etc., you would really be surprised at how many of the big companies make their money.  They all do it. I'm not saying how she went about it is right, but it's kinda like, how are you gonna who is doing it or not? Just because we haven't found the bases for some of the other products, doesn't mean they aren't using them. There are many wholesalers who don't sell online and post all their ingredients and MSDS, etc on their websites and you actually have to deal with sales reps and catalogues to get the same things that say Essential Wholesale offers online.  

I think where Mala went wrong was raising her prices so drastically. It made everyone angry and they went on a witch hunt and found lots of dirt, so now she's getting roasted. If she had kept her prices reasonable, people prally wouldn't have been looking into her ingredients like that.  What Mala is doing is capitalism, pure and simple and it's naive to think that other companies are "ethical".  They want to make money too and in capitalistic system you HAVE to exploit to get a profit.  So I dunno, the price hike turns me off, but the rest? Not really.


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## EllePixie (Oct 9, 2010)

Actually...and I can say this b/c I'm the one who started the NC thread, the intent was to inform consumers about bases being used so if they wanted to tweak the extra ingredients for their hair, they can do that. The original thread has many more bases than just AV. It's true that people started Googling her ingredients specifically because a lot of people already didn't want to order from her, yet many on the board were concerned with finding replacements. So, that's what we found. Some people got angry, some people were amused, some people didn't care. Personally, I'm not even mad - I'm a PJ and have plenty of other products I like better...so she can go on with the best of them.

Personally, I don't even care that she raised her prices, because I have plenty of products that are comparable in price to the new products. However, to raise her prices and use the excuse that the cost of raw materials went up when she is using MANY bases, is dishonest to customers. Basically, her rationalization for her price increase is super shady, and I think that people have a right to know about that. I don't care if Loreal, Clairol, or xyz use bases or whatever - at least they put out a consistent product that I don't have to wait a month for. If Apple was telling people that they had to wait a month to get their iPod because some technician in Silicon Valley had to make it from scratch, I'd call them shady too. Furthermore, like you said, those larger corporations DO have chemists and those chemists obviously know about formulation, and I can't say that for AV, due to the fact that her products OFTEN spoil or separate. When was the last time your Pantene went bad? If you're using bases, why is it taking you so long to get your product out, when your excuse for the long processing time is that you're making stuff from scratch? 

Also...AfroVeda is not Kinky Curly. It's clear that Mala does not research many of her products and formulations - shoot, she couldn't even come up with her own description, so how am I supposed to know that she actually knows what specific ingredients do to hair? Her most popular products are her butters, which are basically enhanced whipped shea butter. Really? Is that a surprise to anyone, being that shea butter is perhaps THE most popular ingredient when it comes to natural hair care?

One of the MAJOR advantages of using smaller companies is that they are not supposed to be based on capitalism and dishonesty. That's their supposed "promise" to customers - that they are NOT like larger companies. I'm just saying, don't position yourself in a certain light, then get caught lying, then not even address the issue. That's just bad PR. The initial price hike was bad PR. It took her how many days to write to her customer and give her "reasons" for the hike? I believe that she said that price increases were coming, but people most likely thought it would be a few dollars, not almost 100%. 

Anywho, with that, I'm done. Afrovedagate has kept me amused for days, but I got stuff to do, lol! It's nice outside, everyone get off the dang computer!!!


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## IDareT'sHair (Oct 9, 2010)

It has been Great Dialogue. I guess It was bound to come out sooner or later anyway. erplexed

The unfortunate thing for me is, that AV-Gate threw alot of other vendors under the bus with her. with that crazy price-hike.

It exposed & uncovered alot of other "stuff"

But Overall, this has all made us Wiser/Smarter and more knowledgable how we plan to spend our money --- going forth.

Some of us will decide to invest in base(s) Oils, SAA's and other ingredients....that's great for those that choose to go that route.

Knowledge is Definitely Power. It's what we plan to do with it after we receive it that makes us well equipped and informed consumers.

I have a feeliing Black Friday & 2011 will be a very different year.


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## Kurlee (Oct 9, 2010)

EllePixie said:


> Actually...and I can say this b/c I'm the one who started the NC thread, the intent was to inform consumers about bases being used so if they wanted to tweak the extra ingredients for their hair, they can do that. The original thread has many more bases than just AV. It's true that people started Googling her ingredients specifically because a lot of people already didn't want to order from her, yet many on the board were concerned with finding replacements. So, that's what we found. Some people got angry, some people were amused, some people didn't care. Personally, I'm not even mad - I'm a PJ and have plenty of other products I like better...so she can go on with the best of them.
> 
> Personally, I don't even care that she raised her prices, because I have plenty of products that are comparable in price to the new products. However, to raise her prices and use the excuse that the cost of raw materials went up when she is using MANY bases, is dishonest to customers. Basically, her rationalization for her price increase is super shady, and I think that people have a right to know about that. I don't care if Loreal, Clairol, or xyz use bases or whatever - at least they put out a consistent product that I don't have to wait a month for. If Apple was telling people that they had to wait a month to get their iPod because some technician in Silicon Valley had to make it from scratch, I'd call them shady too. Furthermore, like you said, those larger corporations DO have chemists and those chemists obviously know about formulation, and I can't say that for AV, due to the fact that her products OFTEN spoil or separate. When was the last time your Pantene went bad? If you're using bases, why is it taking you so long to get your product out, when your excuse for the long processing time is that you're making stuff from scratch?
> 
> ...


 Good Post! I just feel it's wrong to hold one company acoountable and not all the others because more often than not, big or small, *they are all doing the same thing* and some are more successful than others and some are better liars than others.  In the capitalistic system you can pretend all you want to not be "like the others", but you have to be and give in at some point or your business will fail. With that said, it's going to be interesting to seeing what happens to her business after all this drama. I need to check out the Curl Junkie and Ohm replacements for Curl Define


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## Rastafarai (Oct 9, 2010)

Kurlee said:


> The nature of capitalism is dishonest, so I dunno, what Mala is doing is what 99% of very successful business people do; exploit others and get rich off it.





Kurlee said:


> What Mala is doing is capitalism, pure and simple and it's naive to think that other companies are "ethical".  They want to make money too and in capitalistic system you HAVE to exploit to get a profit.


 
Using your above premises I guess the likes of Qhemet Biologics, Komaza Hair Care, Darcy's Botanicals and other successful small black businesses are also exploiting their customers and being dishonest? After all, they are successful and are making profits.

You have certainly insulted a number of black businesses with those above comments. Not all young companies are dishonest or exploitative and one can make a profit without having to lie to their customers. For you to think otherwise is truly unfortunate.


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## Kurlee (Oct 9, 2010)

Rastafarai said:


> Using your above premises I guess the likes of Qhemet Biologics, Komaza Hair Care, Darcy's Botanicals and other successful small black businesses are also exploiting their customers and being dishonest? After all, they are successful and are making profits.
> 
> You have certainly insulted a number of black businesses with those above comments. Not all young companies are dishonest or exploitative and one can make a profit without having to lie to their customers. For you to think otherwise is truly unfortunate.



 It's called markup and every company HAS to do that to make money. They make something for 2 dollars and charge you 6 dollars.  How else would they make a profit?  And where they get their "ingredients" and the formula is always hush hush. Why would they tell you so you can make it/get it yourself?  You can turn my words around into whatever you want but I have *nothing* against those companies. I was speaking about businesses in general.  Do those businesses that u named use bases for at least one of their products? Maybe. Do I know? Nope?  Do I care? Not really.  If it's effective and reasonably priced, whether they whip it in their kitchen, send it to a lab or use bases . . . .  I don't really care. I would rather support them than the bigger corporations who don't even have me on their radar.  If i'm not willing to make it myself and do the leg work, then why am I complaining. There's always luster's pink oil to go back to


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## coilynapp (Oct 9, 2010)

EllePixie said:


> Noir I thought that the concept of ingredients being listed in order of the proportion used wasn't regulated. I have seen some companies in stores list all of their herbal extracts at the top but I was pretty sure that wasn't the bulk of the product. I could be wrong regarding the regulation but for small companies I feel it would be fairly easy for them to stick their added ingredients in the middle and fall under the radar. A lot of companies that use bases leave out ingredients like TEA.


 
No, Elle. There are regulations regarding labeling. The FDA requires that you label in order of proportion of ingredient of your product (high to low). People who are not labeling correctly are falling short of regulations. And they shouldn't be omitting anything either


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## IDareT'sHair (Oct 9, 2010)

I am Thankful that we are All Blessed to Have Choices and to Spend our Money Where & with Whom.

Thank God for Choices. There are Multiple, Talented Vendors to Select from. 

We ALL have the Freedom to Choose.

Most, I have dealt with have great products, moderate price-points and decent customer service.

I'm also thankful that we can ALL Express our Opinions and then at the End of the Day do what's best for our Hair and our Wallets.


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## EllePixie (Oct 9, 2010)

coilynapp said:


> No, Elle. There are regulations regarding labeling. The FDA requires that you label in order of proportion of ingredient of your product (high to low). People who are not labeling correctly are falling short of regulations. And they shouldn't be omitting anything either


 
Dang...well then there are some companies the FDA needs to go see! Thanks for clarifying.

P.S. coilynapp I didn't know you were on here! Hey!


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## EllePixie (Oct 9, 2010)

Kind of OT but I want to say that I really respect the fact that Qhemet leaves negative reviews on their site. I hate it when companies take them off - yes, I know that it could potentially hurt business to leave up negative feedback but everyone's hair is different...usually I read the reviews, but if I think it will be good for MY hair I try it anyway. For instance there were definitely neg. reviews for the Olive and Honey Hydrating Balm on the site, I got it anyway and my hair LOVED it. So, I really feel like companies should just be honest - if they have a good product people will buy it, even if it does not work for everyone.


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## Noir (Oct 9, 2010)

EllePixie said:


> Noir I thought that the concept of ingredients being listed in order of the proportion used wasn't regulated. I have seen some companies in stores list all of their herbal extracts at the top but I was pretty sure that wasn't the bulk of the product. I could be wrong regarding the regulation but for small companies I feel it would be fairly easy for them to stick their added ingredients in the middle and fall under the radar. A lot of companies that use bases leave out ingredients like TEA.


Labeling laws are very strict for cosmetics. However a lot of indie companies (big and small) get away with labeling violations, because as  you mentioned; most fly under the radar. There is currently a shortage of FDA officials, so they go after the companies who are the biggest violators, with larger revenues or those who are reported. There are quite a few small companies who have been fined for violating labeling laws though. 

Aubrey Hampton, founder of Aubrey Organics is one of the biggest violators. This company has been fined so many times and yet the still get away with mislabeling their products. Aubrey Organics have deep pockets so they pay the fines (word on the street is that they also pay the authorities off) and then continue to do what they do. Here is one official Warning Letter to Aubrey Organics, Inc.  by the Department of Health and Human Services.


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## EllePixie (Oct 9, 2010)

Noir said:


> Labeling laws are very strict for cosmetics. However a lot of indie companies (big and small) get away with labeling violations, because as  you mentioned; most fly under the radar. There is currently a shortage of FDA officials, so they go after the companies who are the biggest violators, with larger revenues or those who are reported. There are quite a few small companies who have been fined for violating labeling laws though.
> 
> Aubrey Hampton, founder of Aubrey Organics is one of the biggest violators. This company has been fined so many times and yet the still get away with mislabeling their products. Aubrey Organics have deep pockets so they pay the fines (word on the street is that they also pay the authorities off) and then continue to do what they do. Here is one official Warning Letter to Aubrey Organics, Inc.  by the Department of Health and Human Services.



THANK YOU!!!!!  I was talking about AO but I couldn't remember if it was them or Elucence (shoot, could be both)...I was reading AO ingreds one day and I was like there is NO WAY all those extracts make up the majority of this product.


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## Noir (Oct 9, 2010)

cutiebe2 said:


> Blending stuff in a clender, whipping them up in a huge bowl, and then packaging. It could be that a base is included in that but seeing as I saw much of the process with my own eyes I will stand by them at least.


That is what you do with all bases. You add your fragrance and extra additives like extracts, oils etc.... mix it, whip it and then package it. 

And yes from my understanding, hairveda works with pre-formulated bases also.


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## coilynapp (Oct 9, 2010)

EllePixie said:


> Dang...well then there are some companies the FDA needs to go see! Thanks for clarifying.
> 
> P.S. coilynapp I didn't know you were on here! Hey!


 
HEY!! I rarely post on here, I mostly lurk


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## Rastafarai (Oct 9, 2010)

Kurlee said:


> It's called markup and every company HAS to do that to make money. They make something for 2 dollars and charge you 6 dollars.  How else would they make a profit?  And where they get their "ingredients" and the formula is always hush hush. Why would they tell you so you can make it/get it yourself?  You can turn my words around into whatever you want but I have *nothing* against those companies. I was speaking about businesses in general.  Do those businesses that u named use bases for at least one of their products? Maybe. Do I know? Nope?  Do I care? Not really.  If it's effective and reasonably priced, whether they whip it in their kitchen, send it to a lab or use bases . . . .  I don't really care. I would rather support them than the bigger corporations who don't even have me on their radar.  If i'm not willing to make it myself and do the leg work, then why am I complaining. There's always luster's pink oil to go back to


 
 I am not twisting your words. You suggest that for a business to be successful they MUST exploit and be dishonest as it is, according to your definition, the nature of capitalism. I respectfully disagree and I am sure we can agree to disagree on this point. 

Further, I do not synonymize "mark up" with exploitation and dishonesty. Point blank, Mala Rhodes lied to her customers. Whether or not her customers choose to support her from hereonin is their choice. But at least they are more aware and can find cheaper alternatives to the same products they grew to love.


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## Kurlee (Oct 9, 2010)

Noir said:


> Labeling laws are very strict for cosmetics. However a lot of indie companies (big and small) get away with labeling violations, because as  you mentioned; most fly under the radar. There is currently a shortage of FDA officials, so they go after the companies who are the biggest violators, with larger revenues or those who are reported. There are quite a few small companies who have been fined for violating labeling laws though.
> 
> Aubrey Hampton, founder of Aubrey Organics is one of the biggest violators. This company has been fined so many times and yet the still get away with mislabeling their products. Aubrey Organics have deep pockets so they pay the fines (word on the street is that they also pay the authorities off) and then continue to do what they do. Here is one official Warning Letter to Aubrey Organics, Inc.  by the Department of Health and Human Services.


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## Kurlee (Oct 9, 2010)

Rastafarai said:


> I am not twisting your words. You suggest that for a business to be successful they MUST exploit and be dishonest as it is, according to your definition, the nature of capitalism. I respectfully disagree and I am sure we can agree to disagree on this point.
> 
> Further, I do not synonymize "mark up" with exploitation and dishonesty. Point blank, Mala Rhodes lied to her customers. Whether or not her customers choose to support her from hereonin is their choice. But at least they are more aware and can find cheaper alternatives to the same products they grew to love.


 You are misinterpreting my views, but I'm not going to argue. If u insist that that's what I meant, then there's not much more to say. Agree to disagree . . . .


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## AfroKink (Oct 9, 2010)

I found out about bases many moons ago when I was making my own products. I bought the books, did the research, bought the raw ingredients and equipement, and kept a log book. I made butters, lotions, moisturizers and spritzers. I was getting ready to move to conditioners and shampoos when I saw the wholesalers with the different conditioner and shampoo bases. Around that time my life started getting busy and I stopped mixing.

Now I only make oil/butter mixes so I dont have to get into the preservative mumbo jumbo. 

LHCF use to have a forum for homemade products. Now I think its hidden in another forum. NP also has/had a great forum on making products. 

Maybe one day I'll get back into it. I'd love to create my own staple conditioners. If I do, I'll be hitting up Noir!


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## AfroKink (Oct 9, 2010)

Oh and for the record, I never tried Afroveda and the like. I shy away from things I *think* I can make myself.  Plus with Skala and V05 working so well... I just can't do it!


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## LittleLuxe (Oct 9, 2010)

Kurlee said:


> It's called markup and every company HAS to do that to make money. They make something for 2 dollars and charge you 6 dollars.  How else would they make a profit?  And where they get their "ingredients" and the formula is always hush hush. Why would they tell you so you can make it/get it yourself?  You can turn my words around into whatever you want but I have nothing against those companies. I was speaking about businesses in general.  Do those businesses that u named use bases for at least one of their products? Maybe. Do I know? Nope?  Do I care? Not really.  *If it's effective and reasonably priced*, whether they whip it in their kitchen, send it to a lab or use bases . . . .  I don't really care. *I would rather support them than the bigger corporations who don't even have me on their radar*.  *If i'm not willing to make it myself and do the leg work, then why am I complaining.* There's always luster's pink oil to go back to



I think in the bolded there are some things worthy of correction at least from my pov. I believe what's motivating the dissapointment and current Afroveda-gate is exactly what you are using to support a company. Is their product effective? At times...and at other times it is also inferior, quick to spoil, quick to smell, and long to reach your doorstep. Is it reasonably priced? Well considering we just found out she uses bases and the few ingredients she is adding are also incredibly cheap...no. Everyone is aware things are marked up in business however not every business has the luxury to play the same game and with good reason. Afroveda is no Apple. This woman is not devoting weeks of man-power to experimentation, calculating, product survery and diligent craftsmanship to put out a multi-faceted product. They are able to charge what they do because they put out a superior product which they are responsible for and are assured their customers will love. On the flip go to a BSS store and scope he many brands....note how cheap most of the products are? Because each company is aware their product is no more special or better than the bottle sitting next to it, they do not have the luxury to look around and go "We're going to raise the price on our company by $5 because we believe our moisturizer is worth it." then come to find out their moisturizer is basically the same as the bottle next to it with 1 ingredient added. I assure you that product will sit on the shelves at the BSS while women move on. In Mala's case she based her company and prices around a fantasy and the price hikes sent her consumers seeking knowledge. 

It's the internet age and consumers aren't quite the uninformed trusting masses they once were. I personally have no devotion to a company simply because it is smaller or even because it's black-run (though that's a nice touch) it's because I support a product they put out and appreciate what goes into it (namely: less chemicals, more healthy ingredients, and a more honest business approach) if the company can't fulfill what it's supposed to based on it's business approach and promise to me as a consumer...I'm gone. In Mala's case the price hike didn't support the product she puts out or on further inspection the product she's creating. If she was making a great product with bases it might have been forgivable, but alas. 

And as for not making it therefore one should be more accepting...within reason yes I agree but the fact of the matter is there's a little too much competition and instability in the market for that. I can't  think of individuals who make their own trucks or laptops either but if a popular company makes a bad business move and puts itself under the radar they will suffer (just ask Toyota). Yes Afroveda wasn't the only company using bases but unfortunately for it, it took the bullet possibly meant for another company by trying to raise prices on an inferior product. Other online companies will look at Afroveda and realize their place in the market and where they stand. 

Small companies come with their own flaws and issues, wait time, delivery cost & etc. but if they put out a great product it's okay. That is one reason I'm willing to overlook Hairveda using bases, because what they do add (Ayurvedic Herbs) is something I'm not willing to devote time to preparing (I've tried, it's hard work) and the product they make is pretty great, the price is acceptable and overall save for a sale the products reach you within the prescribed time under her business sheet. However companies such as KeraCare are already working to reach the market those online hair companies are servicing and if any other company is so stupid to underestimate their consumer they'll end up sending them right back into the waiting arms of companies who's products are cheap, easy to purchase and probably better. 

Good luck to Afroveda but she should understand it's just business all around. Her desire to raise prices and take shortcuts unfortunately put her in a bad light and since her company isn't so profound to get away with it. Small companies succeed because they fill a niche bigger companies can't, by trying to emulate the business practices of those bigger than them they usually lose their initial customers (Carol's Daughter) or respect (Miss Jessie's). Just my 2 cents.


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## kmn1980 (Oct 9, 2010)

Noir said:


> Aubrey Hampton, founder of Aubrey Organics is one of the biggest violators. This company has been fined so many times and yet the still get away with mislabeling their products. Aubrey Organics have deep pockets so they pay the fines (word on the street is that they also pay the authorities off) and then continue to do what they do. Here is one official Warning Letter to Aubrey Organics, Inc.  by the Department of Health and Human Services.


 
JHC. I want to know what is it about the ingredients that they were putting in but not listing that made them do so? Someone's going to catch an allergic reaction and sue them for non-disclosure if they keep on.


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## Neith (Oct 9, 2010)

kmn1980 said:


> JHC. I want to know what is it about the ingredients that they were putting in but not listing that made them do so? Someone's going to catch an allergic reaction and sue them for non-disclosure if they keep on.



I'm thinking it's preservatives - Citrus Seed Extract, Vitamins A, C and E is listed as "Aubrey's Preservative" on nearly every bottle.

That's crap.  Those are not broad spectrum preservatives.  No way that it's the only thing they use.


Their Coconut Fatty Acid Cream Base has always been suspect to me too.  It's most likely cetyl alcohol and other additives.


Who knows what else they lie about?    I've stopped using their products.  I like to actually know what's in the product I buy.

I'm all for business and Capitalism...  but some companies (big and small) are just unnecessarily deceitful.  Make a good quality product and be honest about it and you'll have a loyal following.  Sheesh.


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## Tiye (Oct 9, 2010)

AfroKink said:


> I found out about bases many moons ago when I was making my own products. I bought the books, did the research, bought the raw ingredients and equipement, and kept a log book. I made butters, lotions, moisturizers and spritzers. I was getting ready to move to conditioners and shampoos when I saw the wholesalers with the different conditioner and shampoo bases. Around that time my life started getting busy and I stopped mixing.
> 
> Now I only make oil/butter mixes so I dont have to get into the preservative mumbo jumbo.
> 
> ...


 
Same here. Bases are useful for some things. Unless you're an experienced chemist specializing in cosmetics you'll probably have a hard time with the shampoo and conditioner formulation. Lip balms are a pita to hand mix and pour - if I'd known about bases instead of making my own I'd still be selling the stuff. BTW FDA regs are for large companies not for small indie sellers. I see people on boards all the time talking about the position of a particular ingredient on the label and I shake my head because while we can all choose to believe whatever we want that's putting too much faith in a bottle of conditioner.

I'm not an afroveda customer but I just checked out their website and they look like a growing company - with what may be some decent product lines (can't say for sure though without using them). I don't pass on things just coz I can make them myself because I'm always curious about what others are doing ... besides I can cook too but that doesn't mean I don't eat out. I can make cakes just fine but I still like Starbucks pastries. If they use bases for some of their products - as stated earlier that's no big deal. If they referenced some ideas seen on another website - unless they copy and pasted them that's not a huge deal either - humans have been caring for hair for 100s of thousands of years so no one is inventing the wheel with any of this stuff. I gather people are pzzzed about the price hikes - but keep in mind any retailer can do that at any time and there are a couple of things that people can do. If you really like the stuff you can use less of it - if it's pricey to you then you don't need to be using it up like it's v05 and there's no reason for an 8 oz jar not to last several months. Or you can go elsewhere there are scads of people selling natural beauty products. Or you can make your own but keep in mind that this isn't cheap either.



LittleLuxe said:


> I think in the bolded there are some things worthy of correction at least from my pov. I believe what's motivating the dissapointment and current Afroveda-gate is exactly what you are using to support a company. Is their product effective? At times...and at other times it is also inferior, quick to spoil, quick to smell, and long to reach your doorstep. Is it reasonably priced? Well considering we just found out she uses bases and the few ingredients she is adding are also incredibly cheap...no. Everyone is aware things are marked up in business however not every business has the luxury to play the same game and with good reason. Afroveda is no Apple. This woman is not devoting weeks of man-power to experimentation, calculating, product survery and diligent craftsmanship to put out a multi-faceted product. They are able to charge what they do because they put out a superior product which they are responsible for and are assured their customers will love. On the flip go to a BSS store and scope he many brands....note how cheap most of the products are? Because each company is aware their product is no more special or better than the bottle sitting next to it, they do not have the luxury to look around and go "We're going to raise the price on our company by $5 because we believe our moisturizer is worth it." then come to find out their moisturizer is basically the same as the bottle next to it with 1 ingredient added. I assure you that product will sit on the shelves at the BSS while women move on. In Mala's case she based her company and prices around a fantasy and the price hikes sent her consumers seeking knowledge.
> 
> It's the internet age and consumers aren't quite the uninformed trusting masses they once were. I personally have no devotion to a company simply because it is smaller or even because it's black-run (though that's a nice touch) it's because I support a product they put out and appreciate what goes into it (namely: less chemicals, more healthy ingredients, and a more honest business approach) if the company can't fulfill what it's supposed to based on it's business approach and promise to me as a consumer...I'm gone. In Mala's case the price hike didn't support the product she puts out or on further inspection the product she's creating. If she was making a great product with bases it might have been forgivable, but alas.
> 
> ...



There are some inaccuracies here. People are reacting to shampoo and conditioner bases when these are industry standard anyway. Also if you've ever shopped for ingredients then you know they're not cheap - so the av products do not compare with bss products. If ingredients were cheap a majority of indie cosmetic maker businesses ... would not go out of business. And there are plenty of lhcf'ers past and present who can probably attest to racking up quite a tab while they were heavy into their ingredient shopping phase whether it was as a hobby or because they moved on into small business. The other thing is av might want to branch out to new customers - so they don't care about a little chat board fall out. After all it's an accomplishment to get your product talked about on chat boards - companies have to pay for internet buzz. If they cared about the possibility of fall out they might have offered smaller sizes as a compromise. The bottom line is people who truly like av are going to keep buying and those who can't/won't pay ten extra bucks will move on and find something else. As Joe Jackson said any publicity is good publicity so in the long run afroveda is happy for everyday their thread stays current on this board whether some people are angry or not.


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## Kurlee (Oct 9, 2010)

good post!!! ^^^


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## LittleLuxe (Oct 9, 2010)

Tiye said:


> There are some inaccuracies here. People are reacting to shampoo and conditioner bases when these are industry standard anyway.



Lol, I think it's been said more than once that's not all this is about.



Tiye said:


> Also if you've ever shopped for ingredients then you know they're not cheap - so the av products do not compare with bss products. If ingredients were cheap a majority of indie cosmetic maker businesses ... would not go out of business. And there are plenty of lhcf'ers past and present who can probably attest to racking up quite a tab while they were heavy into their ingredient shopping phase whether it was as a hobby or because they moved on into small business.



That doesn't quite explain how a smaller size of product is now worth even more expensive than the largest size they once sold, or why Afroveda did not plan for these increases the first time they raised prices or find another way to recoup costs. Also it's a little cheaper to buy ingredients in bulk than it is individually (I buy plenty from a number of websites) so...



Tiye said:


> The other thing is av might want to branch out to new customers - so they don't care about a little chat board fall out. After all it's an accomplishment to get your product talked about on chat boards - companies have to pay for internet buzz. If they cared about the possibility of fall out they might have offered smaller sizes as a compromise.



There's nothing wrong with that, although if that was her intention it does prove as others have stated she's not too up on smart business practices. The reality is she's going to have to pay for any outside attention or wait for a sudden big break. Unless she's ready to foot the bill she's going to have to rely on the business from chat boards and from what I've seen of the internet her business isn't exactly currently an online fav. Even Hairveda which has been featured in Essence and other publications still relies on the majority of it's sales from hairforums and hasn't gotten so popular you can mention it to the average black woman without her looking clueless. 

Simply...you have to play it carefully even when trying to expand your business, especially in this economy.




Tiye said:


> The bottom line is people who truly like av are going to keep buying and those who can't/won't pay ten extra bucks will move on and find something else.



Exactly.



Tiye said:


> As Joe Jackson said any publicity is good publicity so in the long run afroveda is happy for everyday their thread stays current on this board whether some people are angry or not.



I think the 'even bad news is good news' idea just isn't true anymore. If I truly believed Afroveda was happy for the attention it was receiving regardless of the fact it was negative I doubt she would have sprung a 'Columbus Day Sale' immediately after raising prices, nor do I think she would have published a letter days after prices hit and not before. She's in damage control.


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## davisbr88 (Oct 9, 2010)

SelahOco said:


> I think I might purchase some of the base and make Christmas presents for people out of it.  Make little labels with their names on it and customize the scents to their liking.
> 
> That could be really cute!



This is OT but I LOVE this idea. I think I will do this for my mother, sister-in-law, and niece! Thanks for the great idea!

And thanks OP! Because now I know there are bases available for me to purchase cheap and in bulk so when I make my own stuff, I can have much more consistency and included preservatives. This is a great, and very informative thread.


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## DDTexlaxed (Oct 10, 2010)

From the base thread on LHCF, it seems that making your own stuff can be complicated. Can someone post an easy recipe? Thanks in advance!


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## BostonMaria (Oct 10, 2010)

DDTexlaxed said:


> From the base thread on LHCF, it seems that making your own stuff can be complicated. Can someone post an easy recipe? Thanks in advance!


 
It's not complicated at all. Especially if you buy the base. I pour oils, amino acids, a scent and guar gum to thicken it up. It's fun to experiment. Once I make a batch it can last me a month or two. It takes maybe 30 minutes start to finish.


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## SimJam (Oct 10, 2010)

^^^^^oooh yeah .... tnx bostonmaria

sooooo excited


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## BostonMaria (Oct 10, 2010)

SimJam said:


> ^^^^^oooh yeah .... tnx bostonmaria
> 
> sooooo excited


 
You're welcome

I spent about $70 last year on oils, butters, guar gum, about 7 different fragrances, a pound of conditioner base, aloe vera juice, Ayurvedic oils and it's been 11 months and I still have so much stuff left. I make products all the time or at least use my oils in conditioners that I buy at the BSS. It's a great investment. If I want to buy from an online vendor I will. I've known about the bases for a while, but kept the info to myself cuz there's no sense in messing up somebody's hussle.   

I think that Essential Wholesale is going to be my new BFF!


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## SVT (Oct 10, 2010)

On Aubrey GPB's label they have 'Coconut Fatty Acid Cream Base' listed as the first ingredient. Old bottles had the actual ingredients of the base listed.

How do I found out what is in the base? Do we think more companies will list ingredients this way?


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## justicefighter1913 (Oct 10, 2010)

EllePixie said:


> For the record, just about all of her conditioners are bases...
> 
> - Holy Basil, Coconut Moisture, & Neem - If you like these you can use this: http://www.ingredientstodiefor.com/i...category_id=53
> 
> ...


 

Thanks for this girly!


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## gadgetdiva (Oct 10, 2010)

SVT said:


> On Aubrey GPB's label they have 'Coconut Fatty Acid Cream Base' listed as the first ingredient. Old bottles had the actual ingredients of the base listed.
> 
> How do I found out what is in the base? Do we think more companies will list ingredients this way?


 Try here: Aubrey Organics Dictionary


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## SVT (Oct 10, 2010)

gadgetdiva said:


> Try here: Aubrey Organics Dictionary



Thank you. I read their glossary but it doesn't list the ingredients in order of concentration like the old label and I see they slipped some marketing buzz in their glossary. erplexed

_*COCONUT FATTY ACID CREAM BASE* — Absorption base containing essential fatty acids, coconut fatty alcohols from palm kernels, aloe vera and vitamins A, C and E. Rich in linoleic and linolenic acids (vitamin F), excellent nutrients and skin conditioners. In hair care products, it is often combined with the important amino acids cysteine and methionine, which are high in sulfur and excellent for the hair and scalp. _


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## nissi (Oct 11, 2010)

Excellent thread ladies! Subscribing!!!


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## LovinLocks (Oct 11, 2010)

Solitude said:


> For some reason, I'm not surprised about Hairveda. They do not claim their products to be completely natural and organic....although they do claim them to be handmade.
> 
> Sigh...I KNEW these companies didn't have the means and equipment to make some of these products by hand. At least Hairveda's products are reasonably priced. I will still patronize them as long as the prices stay low. I don't buy from any of those other companies.
> 
> ETA: I just noticed that Hairveda's site actually says "handcrafted" and not handmade :scratchch


 
Whoa, wait, now ya jumped from Afroveda to Hairveda.  Let's keep the threads/posts straight. I got a call this a.m. and the person had it twisted.  This thread originally started out about AFROveda yaw'll.


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## DDTexlaxed (Oct 11, 2010)

LovinLocks said:


> Whoa, wait, now ya jumped from Afroveda to Hairveda.  Let's keep the threads/posts straight. I got a call this a.m. and the person had it twisted.  This thread originally started out about AFROveda yaw'll.


 
The point is more companies than Afroveda has committed this crime. Hairveda and apparently Aubrey Organics has also done this.


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## Solitude (Oct 11, 2010)

EllePixie said:


> Brendita's Body Works, Wonder Curl, Amourai Organique, HairVeda, Jasmine's Bath and Beauty...there are more.
> 
> Oh, and the the silica in AV's conditioners is apparently actually a cone in the base. The base ingredient says, "Dimethicone (from Silica), and she just chose to list silica...
> 
> ...


 
EllePixie You were 100% right. Hairveda is one of my favorite companies, so I didn't want to believe it. But, I did some investigating today and found a product wholesale with the same name and same ingredients as a Hairveda product - EXACTLY the same - but Hairveda states on their site that they do not resale! 

This is crazy!!!!


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## lolascurls (Oct 11, 2010)

Thanks, OP! I was so out of the loop on this one! 
:wow:


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## Solitude (Oct 11, 2010)

LovinLocks said:


> Whoa, wait, now ya jumped from Afroveda to Hairveda.  Let's keep the threads/posts straight. I got a call this a.m. and the person had it twisted.  This thread originally started out about AFROveda yaw'll.


 
LovinLocks I realize that the original post was about Afroveda...did you read through the thread? My post was in response to a post on the first page that listed several small companies that use bases. 

I continue to support the company, but I like to be well-informed. Instead of putting them on blast, I plan to email the company and ask a few questions.


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## EllePixie (Oct 12, 2010)

Solitude said:


> EllePixie You were 100% right. Hairveda is one of my favorite companies, so I didn't want to believe it. But, I did some investigating today and found a product wholesale with the same name and same ingredients as a Hairveda product - EXACTLY the same - but Hairveda states on their site that they do not resale!
> 
> This is crazy!!!!


 
Solitude awww, personally I don't mind HV as much because they are pretty inexpensive...although yes, they should be keeping it real with customers. I will say though, if I find a wholesale of my Cocasta I am outtie!


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## Raine054 (Oct 12, 2010)

Does anyone know of Shescentit does this as well?


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## miss stress (Oct 12, 2010)

Raine054 said:


> Does anyone know of Shescentit does this as well?


 

yeah I wanna know that too cause if I can make the avocado condish at home that would b great


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## Honi (Oct 12, 2010)

Bases are easy to make from scratch. I've made them. There are tons of recipes online that you can follow and tweak.  It can be expensive though so using a base makes sense if you are moving alot of product. I agree with the ladies.  BUT....don't tweak a bulk base and charge an arm/leg for it cause you added some EO, powders, WLAJ, etc.  That's just wrong. 

Oh...thanks to the poster that posted that site for bulk conditioners.  There are so many that I know of and tried.  This one is next on the list.


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## TeddyBear (Oct 12, 2010)

This is very informative with nice links for bases.. thank you :0)


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## coolhandlulu (Oct 12, 2010)

I'm not so surprised or offended by the companies using bases per se; it's the exorbitant prices and they lying when using the term handmade.


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## *Frisky* (Oct 12, 2010)

SVT said:


> On Aubrey GPB's label they have 'Coconut Fatty Acid Cream Base' listed as the first ingredient. Old bottles had the actual ingredients of the base listed.
> 
> How do I found out what is in the base? Do we think more companies will list ingredients this way?



I was under the impression that had to list every single thing. Like Noir said earlier, the FDA has some strict labeling laws now and I think that might be the reason alot of these smaller company's products are surfacing like this because by law, they have to disclose every ingredient. I ordered some butter from a lady that makes her own product and she does not list all the ingredients. It is just one statement saying "essential oils" and I am sure she is doing that so people won't try to copy and make their own but I would have to risk that instead of facing legal action.


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## LittleLuxe (Oct 12, 2010)

*Frisky* - lord that puppy is ridiculously cute, awww.


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## Imoan (Oct 12, 2010)

Totally off subject, @Frisky what kinda of puppy is that( boston terrier)?  he/she is sooo cute I want one


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## *Frisky* (Oct 12, 2010)

LittleLuxe said:


> @*Frisky* - lord that puppy is ridiculously cute, awww.


 


Imoan said:


> Totally off subject, @Frisky what kinda of puppy is that( boston terrier)? he/she is sooo cute I want one


 

Thank you!! He is a yorkie...he is my BABY!!! hahahahhahaha..he loves to just sprawl out on his back and go to sleep.


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## Imoan (Oct 12, 2010)

*Frisky* said:


> Thank you!! He is a yorkie...he is my BABY!!! hahahahhahaha..he loves to just sprawl out on his back and go to sleep.


 
aagh I ment to say Yorkshire terriers.. omg he is too cute my friend bought one for like $400 bucks. I want one.. putting it on my christmas lilst. lol


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## LittleLuxe (Oct 12, 2010)

*Frisky* said:


> Thank you!! He is a yorkie...he is my BABY!!! hahahahhahaha..he loves to just sprawl out on his back and go to sleep.


 
Haha, if I looked as cute as him sprawled out and asleep I would to. Just gorgeous! Goodness gracious girl, I am in love with the color of his paws they look like gold toffee. Kay let me stop drooling now, lol, glad you're enjoying a new baby.


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## Solitude (Oct 12, 2010)

EllePixie said:


> Solitude awww, personally I don't mind HV as much because they are pretty inexpensive...although yes, they should be keeping it real with customers. I will say though, if I find a wholesale of my Cocasta I am outtie!


 
EllePixie yes, I like the company and I will continue to order from them! I hope that my posts about the company were not taken the wrong way!

They are EXTREMELY affordable and the customer service is very good. I think a lot of their products are unique, but some are not. lol @ finding Cocasta for wholesale....


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## MyInvisibleChyrsalis (Oct 12, 2010)

Looks like I'm buying some hair masque base and some fragrance from saveonscents.com and calling it a day...


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## makeupvixen (Oct 12, 2010)

The day that AfroVeda went up in price I ran to her vendors to place my order of the Shea Amla before their prices changed too! Well ladies I ended up getting the New Jar with the obvious New Formula. This mess is watered down. The smell isn't strong like before! The color is obviously different! It's like a freaking milk and not a butter.

I am so freaking glad Mala is being exposed for her lies!

Look at this crap!!!


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## Kurlee (Oct 13, 2010)

Msmchy said:


> Looks like I'm buying some hair masque base and some fragrance from saveonscents.com and calling it a day...


 very pretty hair!


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## FutureMD (Oct 13, 2010)

Just for the record, an emulsification is not some complex process.  A very simple emulsification that anyone with a handmixer/blender can make is mayonnaise.  And with your hand mixer, you can make some very nice products at home.  Basic baking is chemistry on the same level but few people realize it or make the connection.  

You don't have to be a chemist, and it's pretty clear looking at a lot of these sites/products that no one with a chemistry or business or manufacturing background is involved.  All three would be great.  A sound business plan would allow her or anyone like her to try for a loan or find investors (probably a better bet in this economy, getting an SBA loan is not easy to get as it still requires good credit and collateral). It's probably a hurdle many of these people cannot clear.

Thanks to the internet, you can easily learn the properties of the different ingredients that go in your average conditioner or moisturizing treatment.  You can find some basic recipes to tweak.  Just like baking cookies, there are things that are essential and must be in the right proportion for the recipe to work (eggs, flour, baking soda), and there are "extras" that make it "taste" good (chocolate chips for example).  The bases save you a lot of the trial and error since you have a good portion of the work done and you have to customize things.  Yes, you can over mix things and ruin an emulsification, but it's not rocket science.  So in this equation, the bases are those necessary ingredients, and the extra oils and fragrances are the flavoring, but it's true that too much can overwhelm your product and ruin it's desired consistency.

One big issue I think people have with Afroveda is that she hasn't perfected any of this but wants to raise her prices dramatically.  It takes too long for her to turnaround her product (which other people making natural products do a much better job of, so it can't be blamed on her "high quality.") Her products are inconsistent and sometimes spoil, which means that she probably doesn't understand much about what she is using and the ratios needed (and yes, getting some of these things right does require measuring precisely).  If you took chemistry in high school (and hopefully college), then you remember how important this precision is.  But it's not complicated.  But it does mean that if you are at the end of your bottle/box of ingredients, and are running out, you'd need to shelve your next batch until you get more.  

And as we are seeing here, you shouldn't lie in your own marketing b/c it creates a backlash when the truth comes out, something that many major corporations have experienced as well.

The bases means that anyone mixing their own products has to deal with far fewer ingredients and thus has less room for error. The wholesale sites provide the bases, the preservatives, etc., and even some basic recipes, and in many cases the FRACTION/PERCENTAGE of your finished product that the ingredient needs to be in.

I remember the sloppy kids in chemistry class.  But I also remember that with good instructions, someone who couldn't actually balance a chemical equation could get a good product in lab if they at least followed the directions to a T.  Of course, the people who were bad in chemistry always underestimated how much their imprecision would affect their finished product.  

I haven't made my own things at home before, but as someone with a lot of lab experience (and who enjoys to cook), I am probably going to start trying some things on my own.  There are things that I'd like that I can't necessarily find in anything I've tried.  The whole cost/benefit of having someone make things matters.  There are lots of thing that we buy that we can make ourselves, and someone jacking up the prices when the quality if below par isn't going to work.

That being said, have tried and enjoyed many other products that seem to be consistently and professionally made, and have no problem paying for something that is always what it promises to be either (Oyin, Qhemet).  Seriously, the price hike (which is probably more to cover advance costs that she can't afford) is silly when it makes her products more than things from high end specialty stores or even the better made natural competitors. 

I swear, a lot of these people who are putting up internet store fronts should probably just stick to making this stuff for their friends and family.  There is so much to running a good solid business efficiently, esp. when you are manufacturing your  own product.


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## lovelexi (Oct 13, 2010)

Well...I never used Afroveda so I could care less about this whole mess but I sure am glad for those wholesale sites!


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## LittleLuxe (Oct 13, 2010)

FutureMD said:


> Just for the record, an emulsification is not some complex process.  A very simple emulsification that anyone with a handmixer/blender can make is mayonnaise.  And with your hand mixer, you can make some very nice products at home.  Basic baking is chemistry on the same level but few people realize it or make the connection.
> 
> You don't have to be a chemist, and it's pretty clear looking at a lot of these sites/products that no one with a chemistry or business or manufacturing background is involved.  All three would be great.  A sound business plan would allow her or anyone like her to try for a loan or find investors (probably a better bet in this economy, getting an SBA loan is not easy to get as it still requires good credit and collateral). It's probably a hurdle many of these people cannot clear.
> 
> ...


 
You said it all perfectly.


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## LovelyNaps26 (Oct 13, 2010)

I'm almost on the verge of crying tears of joy. One year after beginning my HHJ I just got the greatest bit of news. Next year me and MBL hair will thank you.


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## BlkRushhin (Oct 13, 2010)

Personally I stopped ordering from Afroveda when I had to email them to remind them to send my order which ended up arriving AFTER Christmas last year.


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## davisbr88 (Oct 13, 2010)

^^ 
How unprofessional can you get?
I've never shopped there as I never felt compelled to, but I am happy I never did, because if something like this would have happened to me, it woulda been a wrap.


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## An_gell (Oct 13, 2010)

Okay so I brought some chocolatte moisture mask from one of Afroveda's vendors on her site.  I have been wanting to try it so bad so I figured I would purchase it for the original price before they sold out.  Well I got it yesterday and I opened it up and I'm definitely can see what everybody was talking about the butters seperating.  I mean the oil seems to be seperating from the butter which smells like coco butter to me.  I tried stirring it with a plastic spoon and that made it worse because there was so much oil on the bottom of the butter that hadn't surfaced to the top.  All I'm saying is that the oil definitely needs to be blended into the butter a lot better than that.  I have brought butters before and they do not look like that is this the norm with her butters?? This is my first time buying but I was expecting better, very disappointed.


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## Imoan (Oct 15, 2010)

Any1 order from Essential Wholesale? I had like 8 items in my cart only 2 of them where 16oz others where samples and shipping was $30 seems like they only use UPS ground.  When I order from vitacost.com who also uses UPS I only pay $4.99 no matter what size the order is.. Essentials need to get w/vitacost on the shipping deal.. gesh!!


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## Chameleonchick (Oct 15, 2010)

Oh h to the no. I can't believe that. i still have 16 oz jars of the "old" formula and I won't be repurchasing anytime soon.


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## MissRissa (Oct 15, 2010)

i agree with so many of the points made on here.  i dont really use butters for the most part so i dont have issue personally with inferiority of the product but as far as the business aspect is concerned, she's cheated herself.  i LOVE the ashlii amala raspberry whatever it's called masque.  but it's a mfing recession.  I've purchased the item once in 18 months because it costs so much.  had she just priced it at around $10-16, i would have re upped many times and she could have gotten 2-3x as much os my money since we now know that the base is so cheap.  

the same with bee mine.  the bee mine that i've purchased, i've LOVED.  now i have no idea how much it costs to make her deep condish, and it may actually cost like $20, no clue.  but the sole fact that its cost is like $26, is the reason i haven't purchased.  i do understand that lines want to have that "super" product, thats a lush treat but if you are pricing it so high (ESPECIALLY when its costs a 1/4 to create)to make it almost unattainable, then you're also cheating yourself.


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## che1219 (Oct 15, 2010)

Imoan said:


> Any1 order from Essential Wholesale? I had like 8 items in my cart only 2 of them where 16oz others where samples and shipping was $30 seems like they only use UPS ground. When I order from vitacost.com who also uses UPS I only pay $4.99 no matter what size the order is.. Essentials need to get w/vitacost on the shipping deal.. gesh!!


 
I ordered 7 items from them, one was a gallon and one was 1/2 gallon, the rest were 16oz and the shipping was around $30. I ordered on tuesday and received thursday.


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## Vashti (Oct 16, 2010)

MissRissa said:


> i agree with so many of the points made on here.  i dont really use butters for the most part so i dont have issue personally with inferiority of the product but as far as the business aspect is concerned, she's cheated herself.  i LOVE the ashlii amala raspberry whatever it's called masque.  but it's a mfing recession.  I've purchased the item once in 18 months because it costs so much.  had she just priced it at around $10-16, i would have re upped many times and she could have gotten 2-3x as much os my money since we now know that the base is so cheap.
> 
> the same with bee mine.  the bee mine that i've purchased, i've LOVED.  now i have no idea how much it costs to make her deep condish, and it may actually cost like $20, no clue.  but the sole fact that its cost is like $26, is the reason i haven't purchased.  i do understand that lines want to have that "super" product, thats a lush treat but if you are pricing it so high (ESPECIALLY when its costs a 1/4 to create)to make it almost unattainable, then you're also cheating yourself.


 

Couldn't agree more. It's a sad thing when people become too greedy for their own good. 100% price hike? Sheesh!

About the link to Essential Wholesale - does anyone know if the essential oils they sell are food grade?


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## LaidBak (Oct 16, 2010)

Love this thread.  Too bad it cannot be renamed "Save money on your favorite conditioners".  All the links given need to be consolidated into one post or area.  I could care less if a company is using bases and calling them "handmade"; but I love the idea that I can get access to those bases also.  Its all about saving money!


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## DDTexlaxed (Oct 16, 2010)

makeupvixen said:


> The day that AfroVeda went up in price I ran to her vendors to place my order of the Shea Amla before their prices changed too! Well ladies I ended up getting the New Jar with the obvious New Formula. This mess is watered down. The smell isn't strong like before! The color is obviously different! It's like a freaking milk and not a butter.
> 
> I am so freaking glad Mala is being exposed for her lies!
> 
> Look at this crap!!!


 


OMG, thanks for posting this. I was still thinking about buying the next sale. I will not ever buy it again, although I'm in love with her products. I can't trust the consistency I will get.


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## AKA-Tude (Oct 17, 2010)

I never ordered from AV, HV, or AO
and glad about it!

ME NO LIKEY LIARS!!!

No big whup about the bases,
 but be honest about it.

Since reading thru this thread, 
I will stick with my VO5 & 
butters from Oil by Nature.

I prolly will place an order
with the base sites-
the idea of making HAND-CRAFTED condishes
for Christmas gifts is too cute!!!

The LHCF Ladies are AMAZING!!!
That's why I hangs wit y'all!!!


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## SEMO (Oct 17, 2010)

I'm glad to have the knowledge about product bases.  It's always good to be informed and know you have a variety of options.


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## Keshieshimmer (Oct 17, 2010)

lol She is charging like double the price but can't remain consistent? BUSINESS FAIL!


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## LaidBak (Oct 17, 2010)

AKA-Tude said:


> I never ordered from AV, HV, or AO
> and glad about it!
> 
> ME NO LIKEY LIARS!!!
> ...



SUPER IDEA!!


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## makeupvixen (Oct 26, 2010)

DDTexlaxed said:


> OMG, thanks for posting this. I was still thinking about buying the next sale. I will not ever buy it again, although I'm in love with her products. I can't trust the consistency I will get.


 
I was finally able to make the video about the difference in her products for you. YouTube - AfroVeda - The Integrity Standards and Quality of an Inconsistent Over Price Company 

I had to plan my son's birthday party, plus it was my birthday and my brother's birthday as well. Plus a load of cousins as well. So I've been rather busy, sorry for the delay. Ok, I'm going back to bed now, lol.


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## DDTexlaxed (Oct 26, 2010)

makeupvixen said:


> I was finally able to make the video about the difference in her products for you. YouTube - AfroVeda - The Integrity Standards and Quality of an Inconsistent Over Price Company
> 
> I had to plan my son's birthday party, plus it was my birthday and my brother's birthday as well. Plus a load of cousins as well. So I've been rather busy, sorry for the delay. Ok, I'm going back to bed now, lol.


 

Dang! Your video was on point! I am so mad at Afroveda right now and I am so stuck because I don't know what product to get to replace it!


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## Kurlee (Oct 26, 2010)

^^ i'm so over afroveda. I'm kinda eager to finish up what I have so I can move on to another line and keep working on making my own.  I heard curl junkie and komaza care are good.  KCCC is and always will be a staple for me unless they do something outlandish.


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## bronzebomb (Oct 27, 2010)

Well, the butters are on sale! Are you purchasing?


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## iprocrz108 (Oct 27, 2010)

I'm speaking for myself here but... AfroVeda/Mala's gonna have to come better than $4 for that to happen! I'm done with the brand for now, can't speak for the future.



bronzebomb said:


> Well, the butters are on sale! Are you purchasing?


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## makeupvixen (Oct 27, 2010)

No, I;m not buying anything from AfroVeda. Sale or No Sale. The product is crappy and you never know what you are going to get.

Plus Mala said the price of Shea Buuter, Aloe Vera and Raw Materials are so high now, I don't understand how she can have a sale in today's economy. Since that was her excuse for rising the prices on October 1st, now on Oct 27th there's a sale, guess the market on those items went down in price so she's able to afford a sale. YEAH RIGHT!!!


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## DDTexlaxed (Oct 27, 2010)

I'm too scared to buy anything from them, now. The sale at this time is just too convenient. Too bad, Mala!  I need to see some more YT vids showing that their products have some consistency to them.


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## chebaby (Oct 27, 2010)

makeupvixen said:


> No, I;m not buying anything from AfroVeda. Sale or No Sale.* The product is crappy and you never know what you are going to get.*
> 
> Plus Mala said the price of Shea Buuter, Aloe Vera and Raw Materials are so high now, I don't understand how she can have a sale in today's economy. Since that was her excuse for rising the prices on October 1st, now on Oct 27th there's a sale, guess the market on those items went down in price so she's able to afford a sale. YEAH RIGHT!!!


 
and you know what i dont like about the bolded? its not even a matter of her not getting her formulas right, for all we know she doesnt even have a formula and she just makes products out her ***. you never know. i mean there is no reason her stuff should come different each time. i wouldnt be surprised if shes no different than us when it comes to mixing and we just eye ball it.


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## bronzebomb (Oct 27, 2010)

OMG I just saw your video.  That's a noticable difference.  Wow!  I think I'm stunned...all of the products are different. I thought it was just the Totally Twisted Almond Butter.  I love the Curl Define and it really works on my hair.  I wonder if this is the only product that has not curdled.


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## makeupvixen (Oct 27, 2010)

chebaby said:


> and you know what i dont like about the bolded? its not even a matter of her not getting her formulas right, for all we know she doesnt even have a formula and she just makes products out her ***. you never know. i mean there is no reason her stuff should come different each time. i wouldnt be surprised if shes no different than us when it comes to mixing and we just eye ball it.


 

You took the words right out of my mouth! I don't believe there is no actual recipe at this point. Just a base that she buys and eyeballs some added ingridients. 

Like the label can't be right on the list of ingredients either! Is aloe vera juice really first on the list or last? Is water first of third? I thought the first 3-5 on the list of ingredients are the most important. If so the first 3 on her list of butters are pretty much all the same. Aloe Vera, Rice Milk, Water and an oil.


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## ~Sparklingflame~ (Oct 27, 2010)

I see the 32oz butters have been discontinued.


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## ms.blue (Oct 27, 2010)

I just received an email from them today about their sale and still I laughed at the prices even though the items are on sale.  I truly don't believe her products are worth the prices she is asking for.  If qhemet biologics increase their prices I will still buy her products since my hair loves her stuff annd all her products have been consistent every time.


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## makeupvixen (Oct 27, 2010)

bronzebomb said:


> OMG I just saw your video.  That's a noticable difference.  Wow!  I think I'm stunned...all of the products are different. I thought it was just the Totally Twisted Almond Butter.  I love the Curl Define and it really works on my hair.  I wonder if this is the only product that has not curdled.


 
Thanks. Those were going to be my next purchase if this entire business wasn't to outrageous and full of misconception and lies. I tried a sample of the Totally twist and thought it would be good for summer.

When I think back as to why I even bought from this company it was the KimmayTube effect. I tried Kimmay's leave in and it didn't work for me, not with KCNT, Giovanni or KBB as a base. So I wanted to look for a product that had aloe vera, water and good oils high up on the list, so AfroVeda was the one I found. I'm sorry I ever tried her products, I truly am.


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## Vashti (Oct 28, 2010)

makeupvixen said:


> Plus Mala said the price of Shea Buuter, Aloe Vera and Raw Materials are so high now, I don't understand how she can have a sale in today's economy. Since that was her excuse for rising the prices on October 1st, now on Oct 27th there's a sale, guess the market on those items went down in price so she's able to afford a sale. YEAH RIGHT!!!



Huh. I buy raw shea butter for cheap. Who on earth is she buying it from?


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## NJoy (Oct 28, 2010)

Disclaimer:  Don't stone me because I'm definitely not taking sides and am not even personally familiar with Afroveda or Mala. Nor do I make, sell, promote or otherwise try to make a profit on a dang thang.  A'ight???   

Just wanted to add my two cents and say, Dang! Folks better come correct up in this mug.  You sistas are RUTHLESS!!! Made videos and er'thang!  Dang! lachen:).   

I'm done.  Carry on.


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## Kurlee (Oct 28, 2010)

~Sparklingflame~ said:


> I see the 32oz butters have been discontinued.


 
yup, and the 16 oz is more expensive than the 32 oz was , even WITH the sale


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## makeupvixen (Oct 28, 2010)

Kurlee said:


> yup, and the 16 oz is more expensive than the 32 oz was , even WITH the sale


 
It sure is. I really hope no other company tries to pull this stunt on us to this drastic measure. I was ok with bases, I wasn't ok with the lies and the excuse for the hike. Then what pushed me over the edge was learning about all of these complaints after I had found a product I liked (Hemp Seed). 

If one of you ladies figure out the recipe to make the Hemp Seed I will buy it.


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## ~Sparklingflame~ (Oct 28, 2010)

Kurlee said:


> yup, and the 16 oz is more expensive than the 32 oz was , even WITH the sale


 
Ummm...where is the logic in THAT??????

Wow.


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## fatimablush (Oct 31, 2010)

i could see if she had mixed natural ingredients for the price hike..but using base? no way!!


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## fatimablush (Oct 31, 2010)

PJaye said:


> So, all one has to do is buy a conditioner base, add oils to it, package it and pass it off as an original, self-derived product?




I always wondered why conditioners always have the same ingredients!

Think of all the money we can save y'all! Just by the base and mix it up to your own specifications.


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## SerenavanderWoodsen (Oct 31, 2010)

I've never used these products but wow, crazy stuff.   I wonder if she'll be out of business soon because her reputation is RUINED. I don't really see how she can fix this without admitting that she's a liar which would alienate her customers even further....shame.


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## PhonyBaloney500 (Oct 31, 2010)

EllePixie said:


> Yea, I mean, I don't have beef with HairVeda at all...someone just wanted to know who is using bases so I named them. Brendita's BBW is a MESS though...for a lot of her products she doesn't even ADD things, she just repackages the base and sells it as her own. Then, when you go to the About Brendita section she talks about how she did all this research and made her own products. I wanted her Phat Head Coconut Pudding, but it's actually just the Essential Wholesale Silk Creme, which is $11 for 16oz while the repackaged product is $8 for 6oz...
> 
> Brendita Ingredients:
> Organic Aloe Juice, Organic Coconut Oil, Emulsifying Wax, Palm Stearic Acid, Kosher Vegetable Glycerin, Organic Jojoba Oil, Organic Grapeseed Oil, Organic Avocado Oil, Organic Witch Hazel, Vitamin E, Phenoxyethanol, Hydrolyzed Silk, Xanthan Gum, Organic Black Willowbark Extract, Neem Oil, Rosemary Oleoresin, Citric Acid
> ...



What I am most concerned about is these vendors leaving out ingredients that might potentially be controversial or "not natural" (the one above has low risk on the Cosmetics Database but there is a 81% data gap). People should know what is in the product they are purchasing, by law. The quote above is from Brendita so not sure if Afroveda is leaving ingredients out as well.

I noticed that Afroveda doesn't have an ingredients list for conditioners on the website. Is that new or was that always the case? The butters ingredients are there.

Never ordered from her before but glad to know some great sources for Wholesale!


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## PhonyBaloney500 (Oct 31, 2010)

Yep girls on Naturally Curly noticed some ingredients have changed on the Afroveda site:

Hair Products and Their Bases - Page 11 - CurlTalk


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## Imani (Nov 3, 2010)

PhonyBaloney500 said:


> What I am most concerned about is these vendors leaving out ingredients that might potentially be controversial or "not natural" (the one above has low risk on the Cosmetics Database but there is a 81% data gap). People should know what is in the product they are purchasing, by law. The quote above is from Brendita so not sure if Afroveda is leaving ingredients out as well.
> 
> I noticed that Afroveda doesn't have an ingredients list for conditioners on the website. Is that new or was that always the case? The butters ingredients are there.
> 
> Never ordered from her before but glad to know some great sources for Wholesale!


 
The conditioner ingredients used to be on the site. they were taken down


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## Imani (Nov 3, 2010)

Why does she just copy the descriptions word for word? 


Afroveda's description for their emu oil which is $24.99 for 4 oz

Emu Oil is a traditional Australian Aboriginal medicine and natural skin and 
hair moisturizer. It is recognized as complementary medicine by the 
Therapeutic Goods Administration in Australia (TGA) for the treatment of burns, 
wounds, bruises, as ointments for dry cracked heels, for reducing scar 
formation in healed burn wounds, and as a pain reliever for bone, muscle, and 
joint disorders. Our emu oil is fully refined and contains all natural ingredients, 
including vitamins, minerals, and the essential fatty acids Omega 3 and 6. 
Please note that some producers sell a manufactured emu oil that has been 
clarified. This clarification process eliminates some of the most active 
ingredients of the product. Our emu oil is milky white, and each batch is 
analyzed to confirm that all essential ingredients are present at the natural 
concentrations. This oil is highly penetrating to the skin, and is excellent for 
chemically treated and natural hair



Emu oil on Amazon for $19.99 for 4 oz product description
Amazon.com: Emu Oil Australian Pure Premium AEA 4 fl oz. Powerful skin and hair moisturizer: Health & Personal Care: Reviews, Prices & more

Product Description
Emu Oil is a traditional Australian Aboriginal medicine and natural skin and hair moisturizer. It is recognized as complementary medicine by the Therapeutic Goods Administration in Australia (TGA) for the treatment of burns, wounds, bruises, as ointments for dry cracked heels, for reducing scar formation in healed burn wounds, and as a pain reliever for bone, muscle, and joint disorders. Our emu oil is fully refined and contains all natural ingredients, including vitamins, minerals, and the essential fatty acids Omega 3 and 6. Please note that some producers sell a manufactured emu oil that has been clarified. This clarification process eliminates some of the most active ingredients of the product. Our emu oil is milky white, and each batch is analyzed to confirm that all essential ingredients are present at the natural concentrations. This oil is highly penetrating to the skin, and thus fully effective as topical treatment. In the October 09 issue of InStyle Magazine (p. 194) actress Charlize Theron commented on our product: "I'm not big into styling products, but I use this Australian oil to moisturize my hair."


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## tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT (Nov 3, 2010)

Rastafarai said:


> First I want to say that I've been a loyal customer of Mala Rhodes, owner of Afroveda LLC, for two years. I religiously ordered her products and conditioners thinking I was getting the best and paying for the best. Even after the recent price hike I was still willing to support Afroveda as my hair loves her products.
> 
> That is, until I realize many of her products, her conditioners in particular, are created from hair bases, yet purported as being mixed and concocted by the owner herself.
> 
> ...


 
well i feel bamboozled as well!  simply b/c i know not of who....or what Afroveda is
i'm getting old... and out the game (and possibly going back to the green blue magic:-(


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## tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT (Nov 3, 2010)

EllePixie said:


> For the record, just about all of her conditioners are bases...
> 
> - Holy Basil, Coconut Moisture, & Neem - If you like these you can use this: http://www.ingredientstodiefor.com/i...category_id=53
> 
> ...


 
wow thanks!!  i'll get to trying these.... thanks sis
(still sad i don't know Afroveda.... shyyyte or her cousin Hairveda)  same company???


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## LittleLuxe (Nov 4, 2010)

tHeHaIRLaB said:


> wow thanks!!  i'll get to trying these.... thanks sis
> (still sad i don't know Afroveda.... shyyyte or her cousin Hairveda)  same company???


r

No Afroveda and Hairveda are two different companies. Correct me if I'm wrong but Afroveda's original target group was naturals and Hairveda focuses more on Ayurvedic ingredients. 

Anyway that's what bothers me too, that if something on the ingredients list of the bases she purchases doesn't match up with her ideals she's going to just leave it out and it's something people could be allergic to or just not want in their hair. Like the silicones she left off. The fact she took off the ingredients list for her conditioner from her website just doesn't fill me with much confidence in her products.


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## tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT (Nov 4, 2010)

LittleLuxe said:


> r
> 
> No Afroveda and Hairveda are two different companies. Correct me if I'm wrong but Afroveda's original target group was naturals and Hairveda focuses more on Ayurvedic ingredients.
> 
> Anyway that's what bothers me too, that if something on the ingredients list of the bases she purchases doesn't match up with her ideals she's going to just leave it out and it's something people could be allergic to or just not want in their hair. Like the silicones she left off. The fact she took off the ingredients list for her conditioner from her website just doesn't fill me with much confidence in her products.


 
i'm really wondering if KIMMAY will be using this same base


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## tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT (Nov 4, 2010)

whoever finds me a base for kinky curly knot today.... i'm putting a 1000k price tag on your head!

and some others may chip in... the bounty get's higher!!!  lol (4-real-do)


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## tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT (Nov 4, 2010)

Rastafarai said:


> *Correct. Even you can do it. Just don't forget to charge 5x as much to gain a profit and when you feel like pulling an Afroveda, up the price within a year and explain its because of increase prices of raw products.*
> 
> If she's charging this much for conditioners, I'm pretty certain we're being ripped off on her butters too.


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## tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT (Nov 4, 2010)

[USER=25973 said:
			
		

> Myjourney2009[/USER] ;12084613]I found out about bases used in the "natural conditioners" when I was looking to purchase wheat protein, etc. I found the base that is used for my favorited leave-in,( I wont be trying to make it at home becuase the store brought one works just fine). Thank you OP for this site, I think I am going to purchase and add my own oils to the base of another conditioner I found on this site.
> 
> The specific conditioner I am thinking of using is Moisturizing Conditioner. This specific base is used in a very, very, very popular "natural" line. The company just adds avocado butter and avocado oil to the base. I can add avocado oil to the base for a fraction of the cost.
> 
> Side note: I have never used Afroveda, but I have seen the price jump and the videos that have followed.


 
which company line?  (PM me pleeeeeeez


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## tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT (Nov 4, 2010)

ok... fun with this thread,,,, off to find some SLIPPERY ELM


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## MilkChocolateOne (Nov 4, 2010)

tHeHaIRLaB said:


> afroved-- hairveda-- now *aveda*????  silly country gal like me never heard of these names.... but damn can they get another name??? or must they all rhyme





Aveda is not a new start up natural line.  It's a cosmetic corporation that has been in business since the late 1970's.


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## tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT (Nov 4, 2010)

MilkChocolateOne said:


> Aveda is not a new start up natural line.  It's a cosmetic corporation that has been in business since the late 1970's.


 
LOL... yes yes ....totally own some of their moisturizers for itchy skin
roflmao!  yep 5am will get cha


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## EllePixie (Nov 4, 2010)

tHeHaIRLaB said:


> whoever finds me a base for kinky curly knot today.... i'm putting a 1000k price tag on your head!
> 
> and some others may chip in... the bounty get's higher!!!  lol (4-real-do)



LOL now you're just reaching!


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## tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT (Nov 4, 2010)

EllePixie said:


> LOL now you're just reaching!


 
ROFLMAO.........  always have been accused of dreaming big sis

go hard or go home


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## bronzebomb (Nov 4, 2010)

I just don't think I want a gallon of anything and I don't want to mix my own products.  I tried this and I don't have the patience...I'm OK with the bases.   Also, I don't think AfroVeda is in jeopardy of closing it's doors.  Believe it or not, they still have a strong following.  Will it be my first choice, probably not.  But once she stabilizes the mixture I will repurchase. 

Luckily my hair likes Carol's Daughter and Oyin Handmade, both I can purchase locally.  

Now this AfroGate issue has made me look at other products...I like Mozeke, Donna Marie, and Komaza as a replacement for the Curl Define.


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## tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT (Nov 5, 2010)

most won't be mixing

but if any of you were interested in going in on the mixes.... b/c shipping is a fool on ups

let me know.... i know on Naturally curly they were combining orders.... it would be hard, but if those interested agreed i would order... weigh it out... and ship for anyone interested

i also saw they carried samples... but shyyyte shipping still waaaaay more than the product

but i will say, shipping is quite high these days.... i learned the hard way

i know i'll be ordering the masque, the simple aloe jelley, and maybe a few others


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## lilikoi (Nov 7, 2010)

tHeHaIRLaB said:


> which company line?  (PM me pleeeeeeez


 
tHeHaIRLaB  Hint: Busy as a.....Buzzzzz...Buzzzzz


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## tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT (Nov 7, 2010)

ohhhhhhhhhhh  @lilikoi   cool, yeah that's another one i havent tried

so far i've only done qhemet & kcurly
perhaps i should stop there

thanks!!!


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## lilikoi (Nov 10, 2010)

tHeHaIRLaB said:


> whoever finds me a base for kinky curly knot today.... i'm putting a 1000k price tag on your head!
> 
> and some others may chip in... the bounty get's higher!!!  lol (4-real-do)



tHeHaIRLaB 

Are you for real?! I'm up to this challenge. Seriously! I'll go for less than 1000K (do you know that's actually one million dollars!)

P.S. Do it have to be a base? or would my own super-secret formulation suffice?


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