# "Cursed be Caanan" -- The Castration of Noah



## Shimmie (Jul 18, 2011)

My daughter shared this article with me tonight...  "Interesting"

By Rabbi Daniel Lapin

July 13, 2011
NewsWithViews.com

*Ham - I - Am*

Here are two rules of reality that are helpful to know.

1) Regardless of how much we possess, we are created with a drive to want even more.
2) Our actions can unintentionally harm our children’s lives.

We learn these two timeless truths by solving a pair of perplexing puzzles in the Biblical account of Noah.

First:

The sons of Noah who emerged from the ark were Shem, Ham, and Japhet, and Ham was the father of Canaan.
(Genesis 9:18)

Four verses later-

Ham, the father of Canaan saw his father’s nakedness…
(Genesis 9:22)

Who cares that Ham was the father of Canaan? Why not also tell me who Shem and Japhet’s sons were? Furthermore, did we need a reminder of the relationship after only four verses?

Second:

Ham did something that the text (Genesis 9:22) refers to as “seeing his father’s nakedness.” Then, Noah awakens and utters a dreadful curse against Canaan.

And he said, “Cursed is Canaan...”
(Genesis 9:25)

Why would Noah punish Ham’s fourth son rather than the miscreant himself? How did a sleeping Noah even know what Ham did? 

Ancient Jewish wisdom teaches that the Torah uses euphemistic language. 

*Ham’s terrible crime was castrating his father.[/B
]
Why? 

After the Flood, God instructed Noah to be fruitful and multiply. (Genesis 9:1) 

By making sure there would be no more sons, Ham wanted to guarantee that he would inherit 1/3 of the world rather than only 1/4.

So, Ham prevented the birth of Noah’s fourth son and Noah harmed Ham’s fourth son. 

But that’s not fair!

The Torah is teaching us two lessons we need to know.

1) Even someone who owns as much as 1/4 of the entire world desires more. 
2) Everything we do either helps or harms our children.

Scripture is far more than a history book; it is a guidebook to the world. It may not seem fair that parents’ misdeeds damage their children. But it is how the world works. 

As the Ten Commandments state, when we do something really bad , it impacts our children, our grandchildren and perhaps even our great-grandchildren. (Exodus 20:5 and Deuteronomy 5:9) Bernie Madoff’s children and grandchildren had their lives forever changed by the actions of the notorious swindler.

Knowing these rules truly benefits us. We can channel our own drive for desiring more into positive enterprise, thus using it constructively. We can also understand human nature better, thereby interacting more effectively with others.

We can behave in ways that give our children advantages rather than disadvantages. We can also structure our society more wisely. Instead of recognizing that children thrive in stable, two parent families, we normalize alternative arrangements. Instead of helping individual children overcome tough challenges we pretend that all situations are equivalent. In doing so, we encourage damaging conduct.

People can and do often overcome the effects of their parents’ mistakes, but one of the strongest human impulses is to protect our children. God created the world with this parent/child connection to encourage us to behave properly, ever aware of our present and potential children.

As much as we like to believe that our actions are our own business, this simply isn’t true. Our behavior yesterday will even impact the lives of children we may bring into the world tomorrow.

Teaching reality as it is, rather than as how we would like it to be, is one major gift the Bible offers. There are many more reality lessons from Noah which I present in my 2 audio CD set, The Gathering Storm. 

It is this week’s highlighted (and discounted, online only) teaching. I’d like you to have it.

© 2011 Rabbi Daniel Lapin - All Rights Reserved 

http://newswithviews.com/Lapin/daniel128.htm

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Rabbi Daniel Lapin, known world-wide as America's Rabbi, is a noted rabbinic scholar, best-selling author and host of the Rabbi Daniel Lapin Show on San Francisco’s KSFO. 

He is one of America’s most eloquent speakers and his ability to extract life principles from the Bible and transmit them in an entertaining manner has brought countless numbers of Jews and Christians closer to their respective faiths. 

In 2007 Newsweek magazine included him in its list of America’s fifty most influential rabbis.

You can contact Rabbi Daniel Lapin through his website.

Web Site: www.rabbidaniellapin.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Praise God Precious Ones... I 'had' to share this. 

 @ the bolded and in red text...this man is making too much sense....  

Ladies... how can 'you' apply this 'castration' to today's current events?   

I'm gonna let you get it started... cause you 'all' know how I do ... 

Share your views ...  *


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## Almaz (Jul 18, 2011)

Great post


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## PinkPebbles (Jul 19, 2011)

I enjoyed reading the article!

I believe that children pick up habits from their parents (good and bad); therefore, the parents actions and behavior are extremely important because it can have an effect on their child's mental and social being.

On the other hand, there is a scripture in the bible that says a person is not punished (cursed) for their parents' sins, they are punished (curse) if they continue to walk in the ways of their sinful parents.

I cannot find that particular scripture but I've found other scriptures that are similar in text.

Furthermore, I'm glad that God did not curse me for the sins of my forefathers because I would not be in this Christian forum!

*Deut 24:16*
*16* “Fathers shall not be put to death for _their_ children, nor shall children be put to death for _their_ fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin. 



*Ezekiel 18:18-21*
*18* “ _As for_ his father, 
      Because he cruelly oppressed, 
      Robbed his brother by violence, 
      And did what _is_ not good among his people, 
      Behold, he shall die for his iniquity.

*19* “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 

*20* The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. 

*21* “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.


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## Laela (Jul 19, 2011)

^^ The book of Kings provides good examples of the same sins passing on from generation to generation. 

When Amaziah became king of Judah, he'd spared the sons of those who killed his father:

_2 Kings 14;6_But he didn't execute their children. He obeyed the LORD's command written in the Book of Moses' Teachings: "Parents must never be put to death for the crimes of their children, and children must never be put to death for the crimes of their parents. Each person must be put to death for his own crime."

ITA Pebbles, thank God for his Mercy and Grace. Those days weren't no joke, when at times everyone was killed and died for the sins of one. Jesus fulfilled this, so that He alone suffered and died, for the sins of everyone.


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## Shimmie (Jul 19, 2011)

Almaz , PinkPebbles, Laela 

Thank you -- each of you -- so much for reading this article.   I'll be sharing more as lately I have become the 'student' of my daughter.   

Her Bible studies are very intense and part of the reason falls in line with the message from this article.  She's doing what she grew up seeing me do.  Thank God she picked up on the 'right' things and not my errors which were and are plenty.   

Thank God for His grace and mercies upon me and my babies.   Thank God, for I would not be here either. 

I thank God for each of you...


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## Transformer (Jul 20, 2011)

So this is really..."sins of the father."  I found this very interesting.


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## Shimmie (Jul 20, 2011)

Transformer said:


> So this is really..."sins of the father."  I found this very interesting.



  Very interesting  

Thanks Transformer for stopping in and posting.  

Each day is a new experience in God's love for us.


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## Elnahna (Jul 21, 2011)

The article was really interesting.  I have read that passage before but not with that understanding.  Thank you for sharing.


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## Shimmie (Jul 21, 2011)

Elnahna said:


> The article was really interesting.  I have read that passage before but not with that understanding.  Thank you for sharing.



Thank you for reading this message and commenting.   I find it VERRRRY interesting.


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## Almaz (Jul 21, 2011)

Wow they must be intense is she studying biblical Hebrew, Gematria Man that takes me back to my days in Yeshiva. And I am a FLUENT Hebrew speaker and it was intense also


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## Shimmie (Jul 21, 2011)

Almaz said:


> Wow they must be intense is she studying biblical Hebrew, Gematria Man that takes me back to my days in Yeshiva. And I am a FLUENT Hebrew speaker and it was intense also



Almaz ...

She doesn't 'see' it as intense   She's always had an interest in Biblical Hebrew (history); she has a list of books that I can't seem to keep up with.  She almost 'lives' in the library  reading books I've never heard of.    

Studying the _'numbers'_ (Genatria) is not intriguing for her; she feels that too many people add to it, rather than keep it in the right perspective.   She doesn't want to waste time filtering the truth from someone's number fantasies.  (hope this makes sense).  

She'd love 'listening' to you with your vast knowledge of Herbrew history, etc.    I can't get her on this forum, though.  She thinks it too much drama.... 

I wonder why....  

Almaz, thanks for asking about my baby girl.  :Rose:


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## Nice & Wavy (Jul 21, 2011)

What a powerful and on time word.  This is a great study....

Tell your daughter, THANK YOU for sharing with us such a great word!


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## Shimmie (Jul 21, 2011)

Nice & Wavy said:


> What a powerful and on time word.  This is a great study....
> 
> Tell your daughter, THANK YOU for sharing with us such a great word!



Nice & Wavy ...

Hi Sis     Thanks so much for the kind mention of my daughter.  She's loves the Lord with all of her heart.   Now, she's 'older' than me.        Her growth in the Lord is amaziing.   She's up early each morning dedicated to her praise and worship and her Bible studies.    

After the family is settled, she calls me to share the Word she receives each day. She'll always be 'Mommie's' babygirl.   

There's more to this 'study' about Noah.    The Rabbi takes it to the 'curse' upon Caanan and how it connects to African Americans being separated from their 'Fathers'.    It's something, else.


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## Nice & Wavy (Jul 21, 2011)

Shimmie said:


> @Nice & Wavy ...
> 
> Hi Sis     Thanks so much for the kind mention of my daughter.  She's loves the Lord with all of her heart.   Now, she's 'older' than me.        Her growth in the Lord is amaziing.   She's up early each morning dedicated to her praise and worship and her Bible studies.
> 
> ...


At the bolded....this has my wheels spinning..........

Your daughter sounds like a gem among women!  You are truly blessed and I'm sure she gets so much from her momma


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## Shimmie (Jul 22, 2011)

Nice & Wavy said:


> At the bolded....this has my wheels spinning..........
> 
> Your daughter sounds like a gem among women!  You are truly blessed and I'm sure she gets so much from her momma



Nice & Wavy 

From the Rabbi's message via CD... (I'm looking for the 'written' text -- so far it's only on CD from his website).  

Check this out:   

Ishmael was separated from his father (Abraham), never to be in his presence again.  They never had a true relationship as father and son, as he was 'sent away', and not known as the "Promised One" Isaac. 

In the message he spoke of Keturah, Abraham's second wife (after Sarah's death).  Keturah is a decendant of Sheba and she is/was a Nigerian (Black).

Watch this...

Abraham did the same with his sons by Keturah that he did with Ishmael; he gave them 'gifts' yet he sent them away .... from the presence/inheritance of his son Isaac; never to see these sons again nor to have a father/son relationship with them.

Here:  

_A wife of Abraham and the mother of six of his sons, Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, and Shuah, ancestors of various N Arabian peoples dwelling to the S and E of Palestine.—Ge 25:1-4.

Keturah is specifically referred to as “Abraham’s concubine” at 1 Chronicles 1:32, and quite apparently she and Hagar are meant at Genesis 25:6, where reference is made to the sons of Abraham’s “concubines.” 

Keturah was therefore a secondary wife who never attained the same position as Sarah the mother of Isaac, through whom the promised Seed came. (Ge 17:19-21; 21:2, 3, 12; Heb 11:17, 18) 

While “Abraham gave everything he had to Isaac,” the patriarch gave gifts to the sons of his concubines and then* “sent them away from Isaac his son, *while he was still alive, eastward, to the land of the East.”—Ge 25:5, 6._

Note:  I found this link with 'written' information about Keturah )

http://jandyongenesis.blogspot.com/2008/06/keturah-wife-or-concubine.html


*Here's the theory...*

The Rabbi connects this as what has 'followed' throughout the Black generations....'Black males separated from their fathers, not having a strong bond and relationship --  abandoned and estranged from one another.'

Now when you really look at this and think about it, it cannot be denied.  Look at our Black community, it's all there with the numerous Baby Daddy and Baby Mama syndrome which has followed throughout the generations.

Precious Wavy, it's the sins of the 'father' (Abraham's sin) which has followed throughout the generations of the children he had by a Black Nigerian Woman, named Keturah.  

According to the Rabbi, 'we' need to pray for Keturah's sons to return 'home', return to their families and allow God's healing to take place and restore them.

Isn't it something how things can 'trickle' down through the generations?  The sins of the 'fathers'....  

However, we have Jesus who has redeemed us from the curse of the law.

And Precious Wavy.... God reminded me of Galatians 3:29

_If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise._

God did not leave 'us' out of the Promise.  God knew that Abraham did some messin' up and yet God redeemed 'us' all through the Blood of Jesus Christ.

Whuuuuu !  It's a lot more to this 'study'.   But it's an 'eye opener' -- the connection is from Noah and Ham and then to Abraham sending his Black sons away.   And now God has given us the way back home to Him and to receive the Promise which belongs no longer to Isaac... alone.   But to us 'all'.


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## PinkPebbles (Jul 22, 2011)

Shimmie said:


> @Nice & Wavy
> 
> From the Rabbi's message via CD... (I'm looking for the 'written' text -- so far it's only on CD from his website).
> 
> ...


 
Hi Shimmie -

I'm not familiar with the Arabic culture but do you know if Ishmael's blood line has the same issues as the African American culture? 

According to the above theory, they should since Abraham sent Hagar and Ishmael away. Ishmael was rejected and abandoned just like Keturah's sons.

In my humble opinion, there are a lot of loopholes on this theory. In one breathe the message says _'we' need to pray for Keturah's sons to return 'home', return to their families and allow God's healing to take place and restore them. _And next it says _we have Jesus who has redeemed us from the curse of the law._

This message is very confusing because how can you be cursed if you belong to Christ, who has redeemed us from the curse of the law?


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## Shimmie (Jul 22, 2011)

PinkPebbles said:


> Hi Shimmie -
> 
> I'm not familiar with the Arabic culture but do you know if Ishmael's blood line has the same issues as the African American culture?
> 
> ...



Hi PinkPebbles.... I am so sorry for the 'confusion'.

The Comment regarding praying for Keturah's sons was from the Rabbi's message. 

The comments regarding Jesus are *mine*.   I began by saying this...

_Isn't it something how things can 'trickle' down through the generations? The sins of the 'fathers'....  

However, we have Jesus who has redeemed us from the curse of the law.

And Precious Wavy.... God reminded me of Galatians 3:29

If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and _heirs according to the promise.

God did not leave 'us' out of the Promise. God knew that Abraham did some messin' up and yet God redeemed 'us' all through the Blood of Jesus Christ.

PinkPebbles.... *^^^^ * That was *'me'* commenting my thoughts regarding the Rabbi's theory.    I didn't mean to confuse anyone.  I'm very sorry about that.   

As for Hagar, she is/was an Egyptian.   Whenever she is mentioned in the Bible it is *ALMOST​* always stated as she being an Egyptian.   

Note:  I had to emphazise 'Almost Always'   

I believe it begins in Genesis chapter 16 and it continues in Genesis 21 and ummmmmm,  I believe Genesis chapter 24 or 25.    

I'll be right back... I'll pull up these chapters and post them.   

Okay... here we are, I needed to pull these scriptures:

_Genesis 16 vs 1-16  (shortened - note the blue text)

GENESIS 16 

1 Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was HAGAR. 
3 And Sarai Abram's wife took HAGAR her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife. 
4 And he went in unto HAGAR, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes. 
8 And he said, HAGAR, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai. 
15 And HAGAR bare Abram a son: and Abram called his son's name, which HAGAR bare, Ishmael. 
16 And Abram was fourscore and six years old, when HAGAR bare Ishmael to Abram. 

Okay, here's Genesis chapter 21 - 

GENESIS 21 

9 And Sarah saw the son of HAGAR the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking. 
14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto HAGAR, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba. 
17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to HAGAR out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, HAGAR? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is. 

One more... Here's Genesis Chapter 25 (not 24 as I said earlier).

GENESIS 25

12 Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom HAGAR the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bare unto Abraham: _

Okay... those *^^^^^^* are the scripture references.   

Frrom my Biblical history teachings, I've heard several theories regarding Egyptians being considered Black (or 'African' if you will).   Their skin was Black and there are several theories from different teachers who will say, the Eyptians were Black others say no they were not.  

Personally, I believe there is a mix.   As for Hagar, I am 'leaning'  (key word:  leaning) that she may (key word 'May') have been Black.   I am simply not 'that' sure.   This is where I 'waver'... 

Regarding your question, that if we *belong *to Christ Jesus how can 'we' be cursed.  Key words:  in Christ Jesus?

PinkPebbles... I can take this in so many directions.  

However, the key words of your heartfelt question are:  

*"Belong to Jesus"*   and the word *"IF"*

Not everyone belongs.   

The scripture is clear... "IF you BELONG to Christ Jesus".... "IF" ...... "BELONG" ... "IF"

If we belong to Christ Jesus, then we have every promise which God made unto Abraham.  But 'we' have to belong to Jesus for this redemption.   

As for the Rabbi's theory regarding Ham... I believe it.  I never thought about much until my daughter shared this with me. 

I truly believe that Ham castrated his father, Noah.   No other reason seems logical for Noah to respond with  such anger... "Cursed be Cannan".   The man was in extreme pain, horror, humiliation, now impotent, perhaps a eunuch?     

Ummm, yeah...   With a quickness, Noah shouted, "Cursed be Canaan".  

Again, PinkPebbles...I apologize for the confusing post above.    Now I betta check for typos in this one; I know I made them. 

 

Disclaimer:  I don't know everything.  I'm still learning everyday.


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## Laela (Jul 22, 2011)

*Hosea 11:1*

When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.


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## Shimmie (Jul 22, 2011)

Laela said:


> *Hosea 11:1*
> 
> When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.



Yes...    Yes...    Yes.


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## PinkPebbles (Jul 22, 2011)

Shimmie - you've said a lot and I appreciate you taking the time to explain and post! 

I'm still a little confused about the purpose of the article and the message you wanted to convey in the Christian forum.  

I guess I'm looking at things from a different perspective which is why I'm having a hard time following the underlying message....


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## Shimmie (Jul 22, 2011)

PinkPebbles said:


> Shimmie - you've said a lot and I appreciate you taking the time to explain and post!
> 
> I'm still a little confused about the purpose of the article and the message you wanted to convey in the Christian forum.
> 
> I guess I'm looking at things from a different perspective which is why I'm having a hard time following the underlying message....



Please share what confuses you, as you wil be helping others who may have your very same questions.

I posted this article because it's Biblical and it has the value of knowledge regarding why Noah cursed Canaan.   There are so many 'miss' theories 'out there' among Christians regarding this.   This theory clears it up.  Even though it came from a Rabbinical source, it clears up the 'mystery' and the 'errors of thought' of what happen back there.   

Some of the other theories which revolve around this in many Christian churches do not measure up, they are only 'guesses'.   I won't say I've heard them 'all', but I will say that I've heard more than enough about Noah and Ham.    This is why I shared this in our Christian forum.  Following the bloodline, it all leads to Jesus.  

I hope this helps to answer why I posted this in the Christian forum and that the article does not offend anyone.  It wasn't intended to; only to share and food for thought.


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## Crown (Jul 22, 2011)

Shimmie said:


> Please share what confuses you, as you wil be helping others who may have your very same questions.
> 
> I posted this article because it's Biblical and it has the value of knowledge regarding why Noah cursed Canaan.   There are so many 'miss' theories 'out there' among Christians regarding this.   *This theory clears it up.  Even though it came from a Rabbinical source, it clears up the 'mystery' and the 'errors of thought' of what happen back there.   *
> 
> ...



Sorry, but I am not so sure that this theory clears it up.
Castration has never been associated in the Bible at nakedness.

The Bible clearly states that uncovering the nakedness is performing a sexual act :
Lev. 20.11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness...

18.6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.

18.19 Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness.    18.20 Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her.
[SIZE=-1]

[/SIZE]


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## Crown (Jul 22, 2011)

Shimmie, allow me please to post these two views of this specific event.


View 1
http://www.bibleinsight.com/crn1xs.html
Salah (Shelah) - His Father?
Arphaxad or Cainan or Canaan
…
This area of Genesis chapter 9 has never been clearly understood. How many
times have biblical commentaries condemned Ham, assuming he was the guilty
party in this account. They never explain why Canaan, and not Ham, was
cursed! (It should be noted Canaan was only one of several sons of Ham.
Gen 10:6. Canaan was not even the eldest son of Ham!)

In the Genesis 9:20-25 events Canaan, and not Ham, was guilty! In verse
24 the notion 'youngest son' would on the surface appear to identify the
offender as Ham, but the Hebrew meaning of the word 'son' is not as
specific as it is in English. In Hebrew the word 'son' is '_builder_ of
family name', an expression which may equally be used to refer to a
grandson or even a further removed descendant!

Prior to the incident recorded in Genesis 9:20-24 there is the mention of
only one grandson of Noah, his grandson Canaan. Refer verse 9:18. No other
grandson is mentioned until after the incident. Canaan also appears to have
been the youngest son of Ham (refer Gen 10:6 and 1Chr 1:8) and of course
Ham was the youngest son of Noah. So it is likely that at the time of the
incident the youngest male descendant of Noah was Canaan. Since the curse
was actually placed on Canaan, it is quite clear that by the description
'youngest son(descendant)' Canaan was being identified.
…


View 2 

http://www.rmsbibleengineering.com/Page3/Page3_6.html
WHAT ABOUT NOAH? - DRUNK and NAKED!
…
Leviticus 18
6 "None of you shall approach anyone who is near of kin to him, to uncover his nakedness: I am the LORD.
7 "The NAKEDNESS of your FATHER or the nakedness of your MOTHER you shall not uncover. She is your mother; you shall not uncover her nakedness.
8 The NAKEDNESS of your FATHER's WIFE you shall not uncover; it is your FATHER's NAKEDNESS.
…

http://www.totustuus.com/noah.htm
The Drunkenness of Noah
…
Canaan is the illegitimate child of that immoral act. The other brothers, Shem and Japheth, on hearing Ham's boast respectfully support their father's rightful position (Genesis 9:23) and do not participate in his coup d'etat by assaulting the queen mother. 
This interpretation makes understandable Noah's curse of Caanan (9:24) rather than his father, Ham. Caanan was the illegitimate son of this incestuous act. The meaning of the curse also becomes clearer. Ham attempted to supplant his father by sinfully substituting his potency, his generative powers, in place of his aged father who could no longer produce children. However, the father's curse thwarts Ham's evil plan. Thus, Ham is cursed where he is most vulnerable in the very son who was conceived in this disordering of the family order. This balances the scale. Ham attacks Noah's fatherhood. Noah curses Ham's illicit son. 
…


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## PinkPebbles (Jul 22, 2011)

Shimmie said:


> Please share what confuses you, as you wil be helping others who may have your very same questions.
> 
> I posted this article because it's Biblical and it has the value of knowledge regarding why Noah cursed Canaan. There are so many 'miss' theories 'out there' among Christians regarding this. This theory clears it up. Even though it came from a Rabbinical source, it clears up the 'mystery' and the 'errors of thought' of what happen back there.
> 
> ...


 
Shimmie -

My confusion took place in Post #15 with the interpretation on how Abraham's sins have a direct effect on the African American community. I interpreted your post to infer that African Americans are cursed due to Abraham's decision to send his sons away rather than establish a father - son relationship. 

I do not believe that a race of people can be cursed by their father or forefather's sins based on the scriptures I previously posted. 

Many spiritual and religious leaders are quick to call a race of people cursed, but in actuality it's bad habits that have been passed down from one generation to the next due to lack of knowledge and exposure to a better quality of life.  

The word cursed is synonymous to death, hopelessness, and punished throughout eternity; therefore, I refuse to believe that African Americans are cursed. Our race is not helpless or hopeless and it has been proven that we are well able to succeed in every aspect of life when we educate ourselves, and end unproductive habits.


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## Shimmie (Jul 22, 2011)

PinkPebbles said:


> Shimmie -
> 
> My confusion took place in Post #15 with the interpretation on how Abraham's sins have a direct effect on the African American community. I interpreted your post to infer that African Americans are cursed due to Abraham's decision to send his sons away rather than establish a father - son relationship.
> 
> ...



Pebbles, look at the Black Communiity...

Of all of the races in this earth this is a reality...

Africa has the highest instance of HIV / Aids, hunger, opression and poverty. 

Here in America.. .  

What race outnumbers the jail population?  

Who leads in out of wedlock pregnancies and welfare?

Who leads in poorer education and iliteracy?  And these are children of THIS generation and yet they cannot read.

There was a post in OT about the cheating scale in a Georga school system where Black children's grades were falsified; students were being passed and sent out into the 'world' under - educated.  

What race is 'still' last in business?   Even gays who are in the deepest of sin... unrepented sin at that.... are above the "Black community" in prosperity.  

Face it!  It you don't it will never go away.   We can teach, preach, TD Jakes, Creflo Dollar, and whoever else all day long.... quote scripture all day long, yet there is STILL a curse among the Black community and if you do not see this for what it is, you are in sin for allowing it to continue. 

There are sins of 'omission' and comission'.   The sin of not doing what we should and the sin of doing what we should not.    

There is indeed a 'curse' among Blacks.  'The light of the evidence cannot get any brighter.'  

Dear one,  I KNOW what the word curse means.   When it comes to death, how many more BLACK communities need a funeral home established full and centered in the heart of their community and making more money than drug dealers.   

Did you hear me?????

The funeral homes which have made their home and habitat in the heart of the Black communities are making more money than drug dealers?  

Why is that?   Because 'death' which is indeed a 'curse' as you well stated is the spirit which has 'hovered' over the Black community for generations in one form or another and it has YET to be cast out.    YET!  

I have had it up to my rear end with the pretenses and the denials, and the just plain selfishness that 'we' as a race have allowed to continue.  

STOP quoting 'echos' of other preachers.  Look at how they are living and giving in contrast to what you see in reality wih our community.     

YES, we are the blessed of God.   I know that I am indeed.  I have riches and material gain that I have been totally blessed with.   I have a physical being that exceeeds the majority of women in all races.   I am healthy, healed, beautiful and all of that, which 'we' as Christians confess and confess and confess and confess out of FEAR, and yet there is still a curse upon those in our race who don't come anywhere near the blessings of God.  

WHY?  Until we get to the root of it and understand why and how it came about, we'll never be free.  And that is just plain unnecessary.  

Face the reality that there is a curse upon the Black race; it's there and we can confess scripture all day long and it is not going anywhere for if it was, it would have a long time ago.   We have to acknowledge that there is a curse and find out why and then kill it at the root.  

Why have 'we' not prospered?   Why are our children fatherless?   Why are our men sissies and punks for drugs and homosexuality?   Why are our men in jail more than any others?   Why are so many Black women unmarried?  Why is there such a shortage of qualified Black men to become one with a Black woman?  

It's a curse.    Face it!  It is a 'Curse'.   Face it!  Because it's there laughing in the face of the Black Human Race.

How dare an Asian rule over a Black woman's hair?  Yet they do?  Asians have their own country, yet they come here and sell their hair and products to us?    

What is keeping a Black person from ruling the hair care business?   Why do Blacks not have their own?   Why are Blacks taking their meoney and making others rich and keeping themselves poor.   That's what a curse does.  It steals, KILLS and destroys.  

Blacks are shooting, stabbing, killing, fighting each other every single day in multitudes.   Self-hatred is highest among Blacks.... 

Please tell me what is 'blessed' about any of this?

It's a curse.   Blessings do not fall as such.   The word of God is so clear and as you read God's word regarding blessings and cursings, you cannot deny that there is a cursed spirit which has followed throughout the generations of the Black race.    

Why is there so much 'mess' in the Black church? 

The sins of the Father........ have followed... plain as day. 

PinkPebbles, please don't be offended by this.  Rather help our race to be blessed.   "We" as Black Christians are the only hope to save who we are.


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## PinkPebbles (Jul 22, 2011)

Shimmie said:


> Pebbles, look at the Black Communiity...
> 
> Of all of the races in this earth this is a reality...
> 
> ...


 
Wow at the tone of your post and your judgmental comments toward me because I do not agree with your interpretation....

enough said....carry on.....


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## Crown (Jul 22, 2011)

If there is a curse -

_Black_ people under the curse of Noah or Deuteronomy 28 ?
........

Anyway, the Messiah, The Word of God, made himself The curse to redeem us.


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## Crown (Jul 22, 2011)

http://www.scripturessay.com/article.php?cat&id=257
Is Ham the father of the Black race?

I, too, have sadly heard this teaching espoused more than once. The world is full of bigots looking for some way to twist the scriptures in a way to put others down. It's sickening. It's despicable. The Mormons have actually had the gall to pervert this section of Genesis to teach exactly what you have indicated in order to justify their position on Blacks. They will now allow a black man to serve as an "Aaronic" priest. 
The first thing we need to do is take a careful look at the text. 
…
Before patriarchs died they uttered inspired predictions concerning their sons. Negative predictions are couched in the form of a curse; positive predictions take the form of blessings. Why Noah omits Ham from these prophetic utterances is not clear. Perhaps it was because he had already died. The patriarchal utterances of Noah may not have followed immediately upon the drunkenness incident. Noah lived 350 years after the Flood (verse 28). The mention of his death immediately following the predictions suggests that these utterances may have been made just before Noah's death. Ham may have died during those 350 years between the Flood and the final days of Noah. In any case, in his prophetic pronouncement Noah spoke three times concerning Canaan, twice concerning Shem and once concerning Japheth. 

The question is, what is this curse? Canaan the son of Ham was cursed. *A curse in the Bible is simply a negative prophecy pertaining to temporal life. Canaan was to be "A servant of servants He shall be to his brothers"* (verse 25). This means that he was to be the lowliest of servants. The descendants of Canaan (Canaanites) would be servants first to their own brethren, the Hamites (verse 25), then to the Shemites (verse 26), and finally to the Japhethites (verse 27). We know from Bible history that the *Egyptians* were Hamites, the "brethren" of Canaan. They subjugated Canaan in the 15 century B.C.. When we read Genesis chapter ten we learn that the *Assyrians and babylonians* were Hamitic peoples. They dominated Canaan from the 8th to the 6th centuries B.C.. When the *Shemitic Israelites* invaded Canaan in the 14th century the second part of the prediction was fulfilled. During the conquests of Alexander the Great Canaan fell under the domination of the *Japhethites*. *What we must understand is that the prophecies of Noah are a capsule of ancient history*. 

*The curse on Canaan had nothing to do with the origin of the black race as some have contended*. Ham had three sons besides Canaan. Cush was the father of the Ethiopians, Mizraim of the Egyptians, Phut of the Libyans and the peoples of Africa (see Genesis chapter 10). *The curse placed on Canaan has to do only with Canaanites, a people who manifested none of the racial characteristics of the black race*. The skin texture of Israelites and Canaanites at the time of Joshua's invasion was probably very similar. *The problem concerning the Canaanites was not in the color of their skin but rather in the condition of their hearts*. 

[FONT=&quot]…[/FONT]
Remember that Canaan was not the progenitor of the Black race. Therefore the curse had nothing to do with skin color. This completely destroys the argument proffered by the bigots of this world.


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## Shimmie (Jul 22, 2011)

Crown said:


> Shimmie, allow me please to post these two views of this specific event.
> 
> 
> View 1
> ...



In the 27 plus years of my Salvation, I've heard more versions (theories) of Noah, Ham and Canaan then i can count on one hand. 

A few:

*  Ham saw Noah having sex with his wife (Ham's mom)

Which seemed 'right'... when applied to the scripture from Leviticus 20 ...

*  Ham accidentally saw his father drunk and naked.  Noah woke up embarrassed and cursed him. 

*  Another theory is that Ham had a homosexual incounter with his father, Noah...   

I never bought that one... 

The best source is the Hebrew context ...

Ham did something that the text (Genesis 9:22) refers to as “seeing his father’s nakedness.” Then, Noah awakens and utters a dreadful curse against Canaan.

_And he said, “Cursed is Canaan...”
(Genesis 9:25)

Why would Noah punish Ham’s fourth son rather than the miscreant himself? How did a sleeping Noah even know what Ham did? 

Ancient Jewish wisdom teaches that the Torah uses euphemistic language. _

As I read the words ... "Then Noah awakens...."

If Ham had witnessed Noah having sex with his wife, what would Noah be asleep?    How indeed would he know that Ham had witnessed the act of sex?   Does it say that Noah's wife told Noah that Ham saw them?   

How could Noah have sex while he was asleep?  

Ham uncovered his father's nakedness... 

"To Uncover" also means just that... to see one naked.    It's not solely seeing one in the act of sex.

Ham did something more than see his father Noah naked...   he did something more to hurt him.  He took away his ability to be fruitful and multiply.  

----

I have to produce the entire message.   If I'm not mistaken I may be able to download it.   

Am I out to convince others to believe what I believe?  

Nooooooooooo .... No, not at all.     That's not right.

I just know that all of these years of hearing one theory after another about Ham and Noah... something finally makes a whole lot of sense.    

I'm just sharing.   No disputes on what others believe.  I'm just sharing.  

Blessings and I truly mean this.


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## Shimmie (Jul 22, 2011)

Crown said:


> If there is a curse -
> 
> _Black_ people under the curse of Noah or Deuteronomy 28 ?
> ........
> ...



Indeed the Messiah... Our Jesus has redeemd us, but how many are walking in and living in His Blood shed redemption?    

Look at the evdence around us?   Something is amiss?   Blessed people do not live like this.... they just don't.


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## Crown (Jul 22, 2011)

Shimmie said:


> In the 27 plus years of my Salvation, I've heard more versions (theories) of Noah, Ham and Canaan then i can count on one hand.
> 
> A few:
> 
> ...



Thank you, dear! I wish the same to you.

1- You don’t accept the definition given by the Bible concerning : *uncovering* the nakedness, but you agree with the theory guessing that Noah was castrated, which is found nowhere in the text ?

2-  This theory about a possible castration does not explain why Canaan was cursed, but not Ham.

3- Ham was not the youngest son of Noah, but the second, so the theory :
youngest son of Noah  (Ham) / youngest son of Ham (Canaan) is not true.

4- Youngest son is not a specific term identifying The youngest son of Noah, but the youngest of his descendants at this time (Canaan).

Finally, I posted just to give an alternative at this story of castration and the question about how Black people is related.

  [FONT=&quot]We can agree to disagree.[/FONT]


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## Shimmie (Jul 22, 2011)

PinkPebbles said:


> Wow at the tone of your post and your judgmental comments toward me because I do not agree with your interpretation....
> 
> enough said....carry on.....



Pebbles, please don't do that.  Please don't take this as a personal attack or tone against you.   It's not.  I have no contempt in my heart towards you  and I never will.  

If you truly read what I've shared, it's the issue of our Black community that I am speaking so strongly against.   Who wouldn't.   Things in our race have not gotten any better.    Each time one Black person moves up, 5 move back.   Why is that?   

Each of my children are blessed and do not live in poverty.  God indeed brought us out of it.   Yet, why are there still in this lifetime of increased technology, an increase in access to knowledge and education, why is it that our Black community have more and more Blacks who are failing?    

So if my post has a 'tone' in it, it is because I care about what's going on with us?   How much further down do we as a race have to go?   

My family and I were driving through a neighborhood few weeks ago and noticed one Church after another  and on the corners there were still dealers of drugs, boys with their pants dropped to their knees, girls with outfits small enough to fit a _Barbie doll_. 

Why?  

Tell me why? 

Why have these Churches not broken down this barrier of something that is not a blessing?   

The opposite of blessing is what ........... ?  

We can't get offended with each other.  For that too is not a blessing.   

We have to face it PinkPebbles.... our race is not living in the blessings which God has called us to.  

Why?  

With all of the knowledge of scripture and confessing of such and going to Church and Praising God and all the things we do.... 

Why? 

My heart is not against you, it's against the curse that has hovered over our Black race long enough.   

Everyday more 'mess' comes up holding the Black community down.    

It's a syndrome.  As one 'Black' prospers ... five go down.   'We' live in the worse neighborhoods, the mindset of the Black community is not one of one who is blessed. 

Why?   

The entire time I've responded, my 'tone' is calm.  

I'm not out to 'carry on'... I'm listening to what God is trying to tell me ... the answer to  'Why'.


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## Shimmie (Jul 22, 2011)

Crown said:


> Thank you, dear! I wish the same to you.
> 
> 1- You don’t accept the definition given by the Bible concerning : *uncovering* the nakedness, but you agree with the theory guessing that Noah was castrated, which is found nowhere in the text ?
> 
> ...



Thanks Crown... no contention with me as well.  

Also I don't disagree in the sense of 'forum' cliche'.    As my sister in Christ I do not and will not see us as 'disagreeable.    

There are simply a lot of unanswered questions that connect to us as a people 'Black' and until we uncover the nakedness of them, our Black Heritage will always be in bondage.    

No disagreement...  Somehow these topic has a misunderstanding and it will be cleared up, because the truth behind it is not going away.   

I know God's word as I've read it and learned it.   Something in our Biblical Black history is amiss and what we've done so far as Black Christians has not helped, for we each have family members, loved ones, friends, neighbors... 'Black' who are not living blessed.   

Why has satan been allowed to steal so much from us starting with the sons, husbands, fathers?   It's as if we are waving the flies from one area to another,  and never truly getting rid of them.   

Why?

I can't afford to disagree with you as my sister in Christ?   Being Black still hasn't helped us as a whole even in our Churches.  And there is a link (an answer) in what I've shared in this thread.  

Blessings and please take care in all of this heat.  We currently have 107 with an index of 121 ...


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## Crown (Jul 22, 2011)

Shimmie said:


> Thanks Crown... no contention with me as well.
> 
> Also I don't disagree in the sense of 'forum' cliche'.    As my sister in Christ I do not and will not see us as '*disagreeable*.





Shimmie said:


> There are simply a lot of unanswered questions that connect to us as a people 'Black' and until we uncover the nakedness of them, our Black Heritage will always be in bondage.
> 
> No disagreement...  *Somehow these topic has a misunderstanding and it will be cleared up, because the truth behind it is not going away*.
> 
> ...


Bold : I understand this, and it's profound!
The sins of the father, inter-generational curse, unless someone is redeemed and under the blood of the perfect Lamb of God.
If the author wanted to discuss this subject why not do it properly in all truth?

I disagree when someone is making up theory with no scriptural evidence, not one, like the castration of Noah.

There is also no evidence that Canaan was the father of Black people.

You said that the Rabbi said :
it's the sins of the 'father' (Abraham's sin) which has followed  throughout the generations of the children he had by a Black Nigerian  Woman, named Keturah.  

What's the real problem, here :
The sin of Abraham, a Semite (from Shem), chosen by God ?
or
The blackness of Keturah ?

Anyway, this will help someone prove all things.

Blessings, Shimmie !


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## Guitarhero (Jul 22, 2011)

PinkPebbles said:


> Shimmie -
> 
> My confusion took place in Post #15 with the interpretation on how Abraham's sins have a direct effect on the African American community. I interpreted your post to infer that African Americans are cursed due to Abraham's decision to send his sons away rather than establish a father - son relationship.
> 
> ...




Well, that would have to be expanded to the Blacks of all the Americas, not just AA's.  But I agree.  When you look at Africa, they might have hardships, but they are not "enslaved" in the same sense.  It was a matter of politics and economics.  Many races have been enslaved in the world.  Seriously, if I have to compare, I'd say Native people fit the bill, for realz.  There is no comparison in many cases.


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## Nice & Wavy (Jul 22, 2011)

Shimmie...I am so happy that you have put this here.  I think its going to allow many of us to seek out the Lord to inquire of Him regarding this.  If this was important enough for Him to put in the scriptures, then its important enough to find out.  Thank you, sis... 

This is going to take some time to study.  I have spoken at length about this with my very close friend who is a pastor and she had started this study, not to long ago.  We've been talking for 2 hours about it and this is certainly something to ponder upon.

*Before anyone should say that this is NOT correct, let us take our time and study it.*
_"Study to show yourself approved to God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."_  2 Timothy 2:15

*Let's ask the Holy Spirit to reveal to us the truth of the matter and then why we need to understand it.*
_"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go  away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if  I depart, I will send him unto you. I have yet many things to say unto  you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth,  is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of  himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will  show you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of  mine, and shall show it unto you. All things that the Father hath are  mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it  unto you_."  John 16:7, 12-15

*May we come together in this forum so that the Glory of the Lord will be revealed and His Kingdom established as is His intentions for us as believers in Jesus Christ!*
What is the glory of God?  Moses  asked God to show him His glory, and God  said _"that His GLORY is His  GOODNESS." _(see Ex. 33:17-19)

*Let us ask God for His infinite wisdom in the matter!*
_"If any of you is deficient in wisdom, let him ask of [a]the  giving God [Who gives] to everyone liberally and ungrudgingly, without  reproaching or faultfinding, and it will be given him." _ James 1:5  AMP

Love always.....

N&W


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## Guitarhero (Jul 22, 2011)

So the purpose of this is the explain why Black people have it so hard?  Granted, to put a dent in G-d's command, "pru urvu" or to be fruitful and multiply, through castration would be a hard hit, indeed.  The fact that you are believing the writings or the Talmud is even a bigger miracle...  I'm surprised...but it's a good thing.

Question:

What does anyone feel about the bible geared towards Black people?  I don't know the particular name of it but I've heard of it.  It's purpose was to explain the Black presence in scriptures for those of us today who have been lied to or misguided about their inclusion.


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## Shimmie (Jul 22, 2011)

Crown said:


> Bold : I understand this, and it's profound!
> The sins of the father, inter-generational curse, unless someone is redeemed and under the blood of the perfect Lamb of God.
> If the author wanted to discuss this subject why not do it properly in all truth?
> 
> ...



Crown... 

Thanks Crown, again there is no contention or discord with you; this isn't worth it over a thread topic or anything.   Discussions are just that, discussions over life's topics and theories.  

Oh!  When I mentioned the sins of Abraham, I was referring to Hagar as he sinned by sleeping with a woman other than Sarah, his wife which resulted with a child (Ishmael) who only ended up alienated from his father.   He didn't 'believe' God's promise of having a son with Sarah and yielded to his flesh and his understanding as well.

In addition, Abraham sent away his sons of Keturah resulting in more alienation of sons from their father.   That's sin to abandon one's child. 

Somehow, this 'pattern' of children separated / abandoned by their fathers is prominent in the Black culture.   Why us?   Why our race?   

Anyway, that's what I mean by the sins of Abraham.    Okay?


Hmmmm,  I just thought of something... :scratchch:   

Sarah and Eve did something very _similar_... 

It was Eve who gave the 'forbidden fruit' to Adam to eat; resulting in the birth of 'sin',  the consequences , as we all know, were a disaster.  

It was Sarah who gave her slave (another for of _forbidden fruit_) to Abraham which resulted in the birth of another dire consequence. 

Just a thought.  

I'm just logging back on for a minute.   The reason?   

Laundry ... getting it over with and the rest of ths weekend is 'free'.  

Please take care and please stay cool and safe from this very hot weather.  

Back to one more post and then the laundry.


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## Shimmie (Jul 22, 2011)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Shimmie...I am so happy that you have put this here.  I think its going to allow many of us to seek out the Lord to inquire of Him regarding this.  If this was important enough for Him to put in the scriptures, then its important enough to find out.  Thank you, sis...
> 
> This is going to take some time to study.  I have spoken at length about this with my very close friend who is a pastor and she had started this study, not to long ago.  We've been talking for 2 hours about it and this is certainly something to ponder upon.
> 
> ...



Beautiful post, Precious Wavy...  

This 'subject' is being opened up all around in many Churches and community leaders, regarding our Black community.     Why with so much opportunity for better, is the Black community not prospering in all of life's advantages.

And we cannot blame the economy, as the hindrance to the Black Community's thriving, let alone surviving.  What is with this increase of poverty and lack of education?   It's beyond the Church.   

In our Black culture, there are many 'Blessed Individuals' but as a 'whole', the Blessings are not universal among Blacks.   It's just not.  

God is speaking to us to wake up.  We have to be whole as a culture.  We have to kill the root of every curse that has followed the generations of our rich heritage.  

Do you know that the fight for civil rights for gays, has exceeded ... bypassed the civil and human rights................for Blacks.    Look who's prospering.  And it's not the Black community. 

Anytime a 'sin' has more success in prospering than a culture of people who 'made' this country, and literally upon their backs as slaves, something is not right; something is amiss.  

Pastor 'Wavy' God is speaking to us, and we have to listen.  As a whole, God is trying to restore us.   Although there are those of us who are living the blessed life, the rest of us are not whole.    

As God heard the cries of the children of Isreal from years of slavery and delivered them from Pharoah, so has God heard the cries of the Saints who have fasted and prayed and layed before the Lord in intercession in tears and earntest prayer to save their loved ones, to save the children, to save the fathers, bring their sons out of prison. 

To set their sons and daughters straight in Godly sexuality, deliver their daughters from pimps and pimpettes, from drugs and bloodshed, to remove the names of the sons from stray or aimed bullets,  to heal the sick minds and bodies, to see them walk in the paths of God's righteousness for His namesake, delivering them 'all' from all evil, leading them not into temptation.  

That they may walk in the blessings of the Lord and not under a curse, and to dwell in the house of the Lord, forever and ever... Amen.  

Father God in all of Heaven and Earth... Please open our eyes that we will see, all that you are speaking and calling us to be.   "Whole" and Free in and with You.    In the name and holiness of our Lord and Saviour,  His name is Jesus... Our Lord forever and ever. Amen.   



To eliminate a curse over the Black culture is to face it head on and do away with it, once and for all.   It's has to obey the presence of the Lord.


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## Shimmie (Jul 23, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> So the purpose of this is the explain why Black people have it so hard?  Granted, to put a dent in G-d's command, "pru urvu" or to be fruitful and multiply, through castration would be a hard hit, indeed.  The fact that you are believing the writings or the Talmud is even a bigger miracle...  I'm surprised...but it's a good thing.
> 
> Question:
> 
> What does anyone feel about the bible geared towards Black people?  I don't know the particular name of it but I've heard of it.  It's purpose was to explain the Black presence in scriptures for those of us today who have been lied to or misguided about their inclusion.



I've studied Ancient Jewish history and of course the Talmud for a while.  One way or another, it leads to Jesus.   

Blessings ... :Rose:


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## Crown (Jul 23, 2011)

Racism is so subtle sometimes, even a victim can applaud its perpetrator.

I don't allow  any non-Black to speak about Black people in saying that we are cursed.


----------



## Crown (Jul 23, 2011)

Shimmie said:


> @Crown...
> 
> Thanks Crown, *again there is no contention or discord with you*; this isn't worth it over a thread topic or anything.   Discussions are just that, discussions over life's topics and theories.
> 
> ...




Don't take it personal, I don't share the opinion of the author, we can disagree without contention.

The Bible has already told us what happened and warned us not to add!

Lev. 18.6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.    18.7 The nakedness of thy father, or the  nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou  shalt not uncover her nakedness.    18.8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: *it is thy father's nakedness*.    18.9 The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter  of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home,  or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover.    18.10 The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or of  thy daughter's daughter, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover:  for theirs is thine own nakedness.    18.11 The nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.    18.12 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: she is thy father's near kinswoman.

18.15 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she is thy son's wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.    18.16 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness.    18.17 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a  woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or  her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near  kinswomen: it is wickedness.    18.18 Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time.  
18.19 Also *thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness*, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness.    18.20 Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her.

20.11 *And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness*...

Ez. 22.9 In thee are  men that carry tales to shed blood: and in thee they eat upon the  mountains: in the midst of thee they commit lewdness.    22.10 *In thee have they discovered their fathers' nakedness*: in thee have they humbled her that was set apart for pollution.    22.11 And one hath committed abomination with  his neighbour's wife; and another hath lewdly defiled his daughter in  law; and another in thee hath humbled his sister, his father's daughter.

Hab. 2.15 *Woe unto him  that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and  makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness*!    2.16 Thou art filled with shame for glory: drink  thou also, and let thy foreskin be uncovered: the cup of the LORD's  right hand shall be turned unto thee, and shameful spewing shall be on  thy glory.

Whether this lady was the wife or a granddaughter... of Noah, and maybe in order to be fruitful, 2 situations :

*Ham did this abominable act and Canaan was the fruit in the womb (Noah prophesied).

*Canaan, the son of Ham, did this abomination, with the consent of Ham.

Why would we want more than that?


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## Crown (Jul 23, 2011)

Shimmie said:


> Hmmmm,  I just thought of something... :scratchch:
> 
> *Sarah and Eve did something very similar...
> 
> ...



More than a thought!
I totally agree with you on this.


----------



## Shimmie (Jul 23, 2011)

Crown said:


> Racism is so subtle sometimes, even a victim can applaud its perpetrator.
> 
> I don't allow  any non-Black to speak about Black people in saying that we are cursed.



I agree, 'Racism' can be subtle and actually just plain 'blatant'.  

However, racism or not our African American culture/family has a problem which cannot be ignored and unless we face it, it's not going away.  We can allow ourselves to be offended by what others say and do toward or against us.   No matter what anyone says, African Americans are not living the blessed life which God redeemed us into.  

What's really, really sad....

While we're 'quoting' / posting scripture, the devil is having a hayday in the African American community.... The Black Heritage of which we Black Christians are a part of.   

Something...................... is not right.

Blacks lead in AIDS/HIV 

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/aa/pdf/aa.pdf

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6004a2.htm?s_cid=mm6004a2_w

African Americans financial achievements...

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/aa/pdf/aa.pdf

http://iasp.brandeis.edu/pdfs/Racial-Wealth-Gap-Press-Release.pdf

Unwed Mothers...

http://www.blackamericaweb.com/?q=articles/news/the_state_of_black_america_news/23335

http://www.blackamericaweb.com/?q=articles/news/moving_america_news/29688

_Preliminary census estimates also show the share of African-American households headed by women — mostly single mothers — now exceeds African-American households with married couples, reflecting the trend of declining U.S. marriages overall.

The findings, based on the latest government data, offer a preview of final 2010 census results being released this summer that provide detailed breakdowns by age, race and household relationships_

African American Marriages

http://www.healthymarriageinfo.org/marriage-and-culture/african-americans-and-the-black-community

_Marriage has become less common among African Americans.  According to the U.S. Census, African American households are the least likely to contain a married couple, compared to other racial/ethnic groups.  Similarly, an African American child is three times more likely to be born out of wedlock than a white child and, on average, will spend only six years in a two-parent family compared with fourteen years for a white child and thirteen years for a Hispanic child.  However, surveys indicate a high value placed on marriage among African Americans. 

Marriage in the African American community appears to vary based on educational attainment and income, especially among men as potential marriage partners for African American women.  Marriage appears to contribute greatly to the economic well-being of African-American families.  _ 

Crime, Prison and Drugs...

http://www.peace.ca/truthaboutblackcrime.htm

Among men, blacks (28.5%) are about six times more likely than whites (4.4%) to be admitted to prison during their life. Among women, 3.6% of blacks and 0.5% of whites will enter prison at least once. (U.S. Department of Justice)

*Based on current rates of incarceration, an estimated 7.9% of black males 
compared to 0.7% of white males will enter State of Federal prison by the 
time they are age 20 and 21.4% of black males versus 1.4% of white males will be incarcerated by age 30. (U.S. Department of Justice) *

*Some have noted that more black men are in prison in America than are in 
college. (The Black and White of Justice, Freedom Magazine, Volume 128) *

----

The National Institute of Drug Abuse estimated that while 12 percent of drug 
users are black, *they make up nearly 50 percent of all drug possession 
arrests in the U.S.* (The Black and White of Justice, Freedom Magazine, Volume 128)

According to the National Drug Strategy Network, although African Americans 
make up less than one-third of the population in Georgia, the black arrest 
rate for drugs is five times greater than the white arrest rate. In addition, 
since 1990, African Americans have accounted for more than 75% of persons 
incarcerated for drug offenses in Georgia and make up 97.7% of the people in 
that state who are given life sentences for drug offenses. 

African American Education

Our Black Males

http://www.cgcs.org/publications/Call_For_Change.pdf

----
I could post for days... 

Just looking at our Black community speaks volumes and it's screaming at our culture.   Getting angry or being offended is not going to help or change anything.   We can't put our heads in the sand neither can we puff up and say, I'm not letting anybody say there's a curse on Blacks.  

We don't have to let anyone say it.  The evidence of it is clear enough.   

There is a serious problem among our race.   As a 'Whole' Blacks are not living the Blessed Life of God's Redemption.

As the Church of God, if we do not face it, we can never conquer it with our faith and as a whole, live the blessed life which God has ordained for us.

It's not going to change until we allow God to speak to us and even more important, we 'listen' to Him.


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## Guitarhero (Jul 24, 2011)

Are people not living a redeemed life because they are of another religion?  Of those that are christians, how many have been the direct ancestors of the slave trade?  Is the slave trade and it's effects throughout generations, then, the culprit?  Of those who are devout christians and experiencing hardship which is not their fault, why does G-d not look at their devoutness and bless them anyway according to His scriptures?  Why are Blacks being singled out as only receiving the "blessing" as a whole rather than individualistically?  

As far as Ham is concerned, the Blacks in my family come through Shem.  Shrugs.  We're Davidic and I have the proof.  I have govt. documents, histories, lineages and etc.  Shrugs.  What about the mixed-races?  Does G-d determine me only Black according to man who uses such categorizations to hold people under oppression?  Did not G-d make me His creation and I'm a mixed bag?  This would seem to point to the racist nature of G-d, then - that He has made everybody else who doesn't have a kinky curl nor a certain kinda brown skin tone as less than others.  

Now, what about those who do excel (who are considered true Blacks)?  As far as Canaanites, I do know they were Black but were not the only ones.  It wasn't about race, though.  I think I sent in a video of modern-day Canaanites.  Some like to say they were slaves...but they don't have this history in their own tradition.  

Anyway, can you respond to these points?  Are you saying that Blacks are Jews or something?  Babylon and the diaspora has already taken place and various other enslavements in Asia.  It has been written about in Isaiah about transatlantic slavery in scripture but there was no judgment about wrongdoing mentioned, nor curses.

As far as listening to G-d?  I'm blessed and I listen to Him.  Sometimes I fail...but I'm overall blessed physically, financially, spiritually and emotionally as well as being  educated from a family of educated.  I don't get this curse on "me" because I don't listen to G-d.  If anything, I think that it's the economics and social problems resulting from the economic system of transatlantic slavery.  When I look at primitive "Black" civilizations, they are doing well.  It isn't until they have white contact that they begin to lose everything.  What about all the denominations of Black people...how will they listen together to G-d in the same way?


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## Guitarhero (Jul 24, 2011)

Shimmie said:


> I could post for days...
> 
> *Just looking at our Black community speaks volumes and it's screaming at our culture*.   Getting angry or being offended is not going to help or change anything.   We can't put our heads in the sand neither can we puff up and say, I'm not letting anybody say there's a curse on Blacks.
> 
> ...



I don't think people are angry, they are just asking questions so please do not take offense.  But of those "AA's" who are living badly, what about those who do not?  Does G-d curse them anyway?  Are white people truly better in behavior, evidenced by their blessings?    Hispanics in this country and down throughout the Caribbean to S. America?  They have suffered more and longer than AA's.  At least we have civil rights we can fight for.  In many cases, they do not.  Does G-d's curse apply to them as well?  Of those Hispanics who are considered Black, are the effects of slavery directly related throughout the generations?  And for Indians as well?  

I think that some people are trying to figure out if this line of thinking and interpretation is utilizing the racist biblical interpretation to justify modern-day social problems.  Does not G-d ask US to correct the injustices of the world by being just?


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## Guitarhero (Jul 24, 2011)

Crown said:


> More than a thought!
> I totally agree with you on this.



The banishment didn't occur when Eve gave the fruit, it's when Adam ate of it.


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## Crown (Jul 24, 2011)

Shimmie said:


> ----
> I could post for days...
> 
> Just looking at our Black community speaks volumes and it's screaming at our culture.   Getting angry or being offended is not going to help or change anything.   We can't put our heads in the sand neither can we puff up and say, I'm not letting anybody say there's a curse on Blacks.
> ...



I am not angry and I am not offended.

This person starts with a very hypothetical theory of castration (found nowhere in the Bible) to trying to put a curse over a large and diversified group of individuals, not directly connected to the cursed person.

I disagree with this theory.

_I am not against the Rabbi. I disagree with his theory, it's just that : a human and very questionable theory. And I am questioning his motives.__

We have to do what the Bible said : prove all things and hold fast that which is good (1Thes. 5:21). No need for a specific revelation when the answer is already in the Scriptures. We just have to behave like the Bereans : with prayer, search the scriptures daily, whether those things were so (Acts 17:11)__.

__Again, I am not angry, not offended, not contentious__... Please, don't put emotions on me when I speak for the truth._ _ I hope that you understand my point of view now, please don't take it personal cause it is not. Even if you were the author, I can disagree with your point of view and still love you (fellowship and respect)._


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## Crown (Jul 24, 2011)

Guitarhero said:


> The banishment didn't occur when Eve gave the fruit, it's when Adam ate of it.


I think we were talking about vessel.

As woman, we can be a vessel of honor or of dishonor for our man.

Eve gave the fruit to Adam. Sarah gave her servant to Abraham. Job's wife advised him to curse God and die.
Adam ate the fruit. Abraham consumed. Job resisted.

Job 2.9 *Then said his wife unto him*, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? *curse God, and die*.    2.10 But he said unto her, *Thou speakest as one  of the foolish women speaketh*. What? shall we receive good at the hand  of God, and shall we not receive evil? *In all this did not Job sin with  his lips*.

We have to be very careful about what we ask our husband to do.


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## Guitarhero (Jul 24, 2011)

Crown said:


> I think we were talking about vessel.
> 
> As woman, we can be a vessel of honor or of dishonor for our man.
> 
> ...



Thanks!!!!


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## Laela (Jul 25, 2011)

That is the kind of thinking (racism) that twists Scripture. Historically, preachers and slaveholders have erroneously used the cursing of Ham to justify slavery -- using the Bible. They'd overlook that Noah cursed Canaan, because he couldn't curse Ham, since Ham had been blessed by God. Whom God blesses NO MAN can curse. My understanding is the generation curse was built-in because of Ham's sin/abomination by _uncovering his father's nakedness_ (which, according to scripture is to have sex with one's father's wife). I don't get the castration theory... either, which the Bible doesn't support.

Genesis 9
1 Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. 2 The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth, and on all the birds in the sky, on every creature that moves along the ground, and on all the fish in the sea; they are given into your hands. 3 Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. 

Redemption through Christ cannot be overlooked. Peter was told in his vision - "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.” Acts 10:15. So how can we believe today that an entire people is cursed?




Crown said:


> Racism is so subtle sometimes, even a victim can applaud its perpetrator.
> 
> I don't allow  any non-Black to speak about Black people in saying that we are cursed.


 






ITA generational curses are a result of unrepentant sins.  



PinkPebbles said:


> Shimmie -
> 
> My confusion took place in Post #15 with the interpretation on how Abraham's sins have a direct effect on the African American community. I interpreted your post to infer that African Americans are cursed due to Abraham's decision to send his sons away rather than establish a father - son relationship.
> 
> ...


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## Shimmie (Jul 25, 2011)

Hi Ladies...

I'm going to ask the 'Mods' to close the thread for me. 

My intention was to share and not have any disagreements or contentions among us.  I do not want it to be an open gate for such. 

What I'm asking each of you to do is to 'Pray'.  Pray for our people, our culture.  *Just Pray.* 

This concerns many of our loved ones, and the loved ones of others.  Just Pray, for our entire Black Community because there's trouble headed for 'her' --  those who have been birthed through her womb and do not know the Blood covering of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.  

For a long time, my heart has been heavy regarding our African American Heritage *'as a whole' * which is still not whole. 

Although many of us as Christians live a blessed and abundant life ('Life' -- Singular), it is not extending into 'all' Christians of our Black culture nor the rest of 'our loved ones --- nor our culture *as a whole*.

Unrepented sin does indeed carry generational curses among 'generations' / races.   Yet, *ALL races *have unrepented sins among them.  All do.   

So what's going on with our African American race, that it's not prospering as other races prosper?   What is the generational sin/curse that has kept her beneath the others?  Why are our male children the target of poverty imprisonment, drugs, lesser education, employment, without fathers, being stripped of their manhood punked into homosexuality with Black women supporting it?  

Why?  Why when men are called to be strong and to be leaders; why are our men being lead, instead, into weakness, death and destruction... as lambs into slaughter without resistance?

The weakened state that our race is currently in, only makes _her _more vunerable to the attacks which are planned against her ahead. 

I care.  I care enough to find out what it is and to come against it.  So many of our people are suffering due to a consequence of an 'unknown' curse (if your will) and do not understand why.    

We have a thread in this forum entitled, "God Hates Me".    Why?    When we know from personal experience and from God's Word that this is not true.  

Yet there is something going on beneath this member's cry and the cries of other's in our culture, for help that needs to be uncovered. 

I pray for so many people; pray requests come to me by the scores; thousands are iterally in my PM box as well as my personal emails at home.   

God's love and encouragement flows from my heart with each prayer I pray and with each post I'm made in this forum.   

However, there's a stir in my heart that there's more going on; that there's a hidden element behind every prayer request that needs to be addressed; and most of it is tied to something that was pronounced over our generation times back and it needs to be broken, for it is high time that we become the 'head and not the tail, above only and not beneath. 

The answers are coming together for God does not wish that any of us should perish neither be ignorant.  

As the answers come, I will post.  Most of all, I will continue in prayer for 'her', our African Heritage who deserves to have the blessed life Jesus died to give her.  

In Love and Peace and nothing less, 

Shimmie...


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