# **WHY CHRISTIANS MUST STOP PASSING JUDGEMENT ON CHRISTIAN MUSICIANS**



## music-bnatural-smile (Jul 7, 2009)

Gosh I hate doing this... I mean starting threads like this... Anyways...
Ladies you must understand, just because they put out a cd doesn't mean that they are making MEGA BUCKS off of their cd... I know, because I have seen their expenses... My boyfriend and many other people live very happily off of musician's expenses... as they should. The bible clearly tells us NOT TO MUZZLE THE OX, and making a cd is HARD WORK... even harder work for the behind the scenes people... The artists really do the least
Making an album costs money... You must pay for:

*studio time (approx. $300 per hour, one song can take up to 2 hours to record)*
*mixing and mastering (making the cd radio ready... can cost up to $1000 per song)*
*beats (the background music) these can cost up to $20,000 per song!!!!! and then the composer takes most of the royalties*
*writing (most songs are written by an artist of an outside source) lyrics can be up to $20,000 and the writer collects most of the royalties*
*album cover art (graphic design and original artwork can be up to $3000 plus royalties for each cd sold)*
*Distribution (putting in the stores) this is usually done by way of a deal, and a distribution deal is not a gift, it is like a house loan... they put you in stores, itunes, and on the radio and then your album sales must pay them back all of the money... it is an advance, not a gift*
*Concerts- you have to pay people to set up, break down, be back up singers, do lighting, sound, everything... The crew takes at least 50 people, and each make at least 50,000 per year, and thats cheap*
*Makeup, wardrobe, cooks, fitness coaches...*
Then, to get a record or distribution deal, you have to prove to the major labels that your music is worth backing. It is a investment. If people like your music, then they make money first, and you will make about 100,000 from your tour if you havent spent it all on havin a life... its not all the glamour you think it is!!! Many artists that go quiet after one album do it because of debt!!! They owe their label thousands and thousands just like many people owe their loan providers for school. It is a big deal and a big risk and an even bigger responsibility!!! And they rarely get a significant amount of royalties if they only sang on the song and didnt write anything...
Be proud of your Christian musicians, because it is a tough world they live in, and many of them are either broke and have a 9-5. Trust me, I have met many mainstream artists, and they all make money from their books, non-profit orgs, live performances, endorsemets, and their home businesses, not from their music. All the music does is make you popular. 
Stop hating on Mary Mary, please just support them and buy their music. And do the same for every Christian artist that you hear and enjoy... because they are probably broke trying to give a good word to everyone around them.


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## brg240 (Jul 8, 2009)

I don't think people are hating on Mary Mary :/ Correction I don't think the majority of people are; disagreeing with someone =/= hating.


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## momi (Jul 8, 2009)

Hi music!  I see that you are truly passionate about this subject.  Although I am well-aware of much of the science behind the music industry I really dont see what difference this makes.  

As far as folks making observations about people in the business - that just goes with the territory. . If someone does not want any criticism they should stay out of the spotlight. Just my humble cant sing a lick opinion.


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## blazingthru (Jul 8, 2009)

I am not hating on Mary Mary, I have all of their CDs except the last one.  some of them I have brought twice. This is before I becames aware of what is really going on.  God gives some of us special talents.  Even our jobs are a blessing, we are still held accountable for how we spend our money.  I don't believe that all these things you listed above is something God would want you to burden yourself with this is not how he would want you to use your talent.  When its something thats truly a blessing from the Lord, I beleive everything falls into place as it should.  There is this guy I can't think of his name but his program is called Acts of the Word. he just talks or puts on a one man show. Its actually good, he memorizes books of the bible and he talks it out. Its like back in biblical days when you went to the temple this is how it was read to you. He had a great chance of being very successful in TV & News whatever, but God called him out of that life these are his words and this is what he does not he goes around just reading the bible but he isn't reading it he memorizes entire books.  Its truly a blessing to hear him. Different but interesting. he actually memeorize seven books in the bible.  He said it took him  a year and a half to do each book. Amazing. Its hard to book him at church he is so busy.


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## divya (Jul 8, 2009)

I personally am not passing judgment on Mary Mary, but just because particular artists are Christian does not mean I should buy their music. They've made one or two songs that I like but that's it.  Not my style or taste in Christian music.


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## music-bnatural-smile (Jul 8, 2009)

divya said:


> I personally am not passing judgment on Mary Mary, but just because particular artists are Christian does not mean I should buy their music. They've made one or two songs that I like but that's it.  Not my style or taste in Christian music.



Thats cool I don't regularly buy their cds either... but I also don't listen to their songs and complain about them... not saying that you do, but my guess is plenty of people on here do that... its just counterproductive


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## music-bnatural-smile (Jul 8, 2009)

momi said:


> Hi music!  I see that you are truly passionate about this subject.  Although I am well-aware of much of the science behind the music industry I really dont see what difference this makes.
> 
> As far as folks making observations about people in the business - that just goes with the territory. . If someone does not want any criticism they should stay out of the spotlight. Just my humble cant sing a lick opinion.


 
I feel you, but if everyone stayed out of the spotlight, who would then be the light in the dark world? What would Christians listen to? If they were called to be in the spotlight then why should we make it miserable for them? They, just like female speakers such as Michelle McKinney Hammond were all called to do what they do... We can't just tell them to be out of the "spotlight"... why even have a ministry then?
Thats like saying I shouldn't have sang at my church on Sunday so that i could avoid the criticism.... I didn't want to sing a solo... the church asked me, and so I feel like God told me... Who am I to say no? You can't dismiss your calling... God will make you miserable if you do that. He will put a weight on you so heavy that you wont be able to breathe, and I've felt that many times...


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## BeautifulFlower (Jul 8, 2009)

Yeah, judgements come with the territory but Christians are the most critical to be honest. 

Maybe in death people with learn to leave them alone like MJ.


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## saved06 (Jul 8, 2009)

There shouldn't even be a gospel music industry and I thought as "gospel" musicians you are actually supposed to live as Christ taught hmmmm.....we really should be birthing our own songs in the church...but that's another issue I don't have energy to get into


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## divya (Jul 8, 2009)

music-bnatural-smile said:


> Thats cool I don't regularly buy their cds either... but I also don't listen to their songs and complain about them... not saying that you do, but my guess is plenty of people on here do that... its just counterproductive



Are people really complaining about them or are they just stating what they see? And how do you know?


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Jul 8, 2009)

saved06 said:


> *There shouldn't even be a gospel music industry *and I thought as "gospel" musicians you are actually supposed to live as Christ taught hmmmm.....we really should be birthing our own songs in the church...but that's another issue I don't have energy to get into





But why not?


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## music-bnatural-smile (Jul 8, 2009)

saved06 said:


> There shouldn't even be a gospel music industry and I thought as "gospel" musicians you are actually supposed to live as Christ taught hmmmm.....we really should be birthing our own songs in the church...but that's another issue I don't have energy to get into



This sounds like exclusionary mumbo jumbo... Like oh by the way, missionaries should only go to other churches and preach instead of trying to minister to the world...
I'd like to hear the rest of that... Just to see if this really was as off as it sounded


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## Angelicus (Jul 8, 2009)

I am about to send you a PM right now.


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## msa (Jul 8, 2009)

I'm confused about what the music making process has to do with people not liking Mary Mary.

And for the record...
Dislike is not the same as "hating".
Dislike is not the same as judgment.


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## MA2010 (Jul 8, 2009)

divya said:


> *Are people really complaining about them or are they just stating what they see?* And how do you know?



The majority of us are doing the latter I believe.

No doubt these ladies may work hard and get paid little to nothing, got it.

But does this change the fact that many in the faith are finding affirmation in the world when those who are "called" to minister look and sound just as such? I think it confuses people. 

Where is our separation? Were we not called to be apart?


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## momi (Jul 8, 2009)

Manushka said:


> The majority of us are doing the latter I believe.
> 
> No doubt these ladies may work hard and get paid little to nothing, got it.
> 
> ...


 
Exactly - it is not really that hard to understand -unless one is trying to find a truth or principle in the word that is just not there.


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## music-bnatural-smile (Jul 8, 2009)

I'm not into separation... I think that sounds like you're "too good" to be around those non-christians... Which I know that probably isn't what you mean, but I have very close relationships with non-believers and they have always said they saw something different in me... While I am different, I'm not gonna separate myself from them.. I may be the very little bit if God they ever see in their lives


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## Ramya (Jul 8, 2009)

Please don't take this the wrong way but the way that the industry runs is not my problem or concern. My concern comes with the finished product. If I don't like the finished product, there's no reason that I should support it. ESPECIALLY when I feel the message is incomplete or contradictory.


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## queenspence (Jul 8, 2009)

I think that for some artists it would be easier or more acceptable to take out Christian/Gospel and use Inspirational as their genre. Why? If the world doesn't see a difference in their image and lifestyle, then why as christians do we compromise? Or made to feel guilty if we don't support some of these projects?
 It's not just Christians that criticize some of these artists, the secular world does too. They are looking for something different than what's presented by r & b artists. It takes more than just placing God or Jesus in a song and thinking that makes it Christian. What if Marilyn Manson kept all things the same but talked about God in his music, would that then qualify his music as Christian? Probably not-
There are several artists that have made more of an impact not labeled as Christian than some of those that are- great example is MJ- his music was very inspirational and had a positive message but he was under the pop genre- just a thought


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## luvn_life (Jul 8, 2009)

prettyfaceANB said:


> Yeah, judgements come with the territory but *Christians are the most critical to be honest*.
> 
> Maybe in death people with learn to leave them alone like MJ.



I was think about that yesterday that Christians are so critical and hypocritical. That's why so many people don't get to learn of Jesus Christ becuase of the people. I'm a Christian, so don't stone me. I think it's the truth. I think so many people are judgemental and think that Christian music is supposed to be one way and music is supposed to be one way. 

I'm sorry but other religions are way nicer and act more out of love than alot of Christians I know. That's why I'm glad my mother taught to look to the throne and not at people because someone will always have something to say about your life and you way of doing things because it doesn't fit THEIR lifestyle.


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## queenspence (Jul 8, 2009)

I agree that as humans we can all be critical, hypocritical, and judgmental. However, when you have a standard or measuring stick, it should give things some balance. That's why I am glad Jesus is the perfect example and the Bible is specific about how we should conduct ourselves, shun the appearance of evil, come out of the world, etc.


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## MA2010 (Jul 8, 2009)

TynaBeena said:


> I was think about that yesterday that Christians are so critical and hypocritical. That's why so many people don't get to learn of Jesus Christ becuase of the people. I'm a Christian, so don't stone me. I think it's the truth. I think so many people are judgemental and think that Christian music is supposed to be one way and music is supposed to be one way.
> 
> *I'm sorry but other religions are way nicer and act more out of love than alot of Christians I know.*I That's why I'm glad my mother taught to look to the throne and not at people because someone will always have something to say about your life and you way of doing things because it doesn't fit THEIR lifestyle.



How so (to the bolded)? 

Everyone of us should be looking to the throne, I agree with you there. 

We should be building personal relationships with Christ, not building a "religion" anyways. 

But if I, Manushka, wanted to become a Christian/ Gospel musician/artist I would think those who believe in the Gospel/ Christianity would have expectations of me. I would understand that and work towards what aligns with what the "Good News" is. 

There were/are expectations of Mary Mary (the song, and the outfits) that fell short for most of us is all.


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## MA2010 (Jul 8, 2009)

Ramya said:


> Please don't take this the wrong way but the way that the industry runs is not my problem or concern. My concern comes with the finished product. If I don't like the finished product, there's no reason that I should support it. ESPECIALLY when I feel the message is incomplete or contradictory.



If I could thank you a million times over I would!


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Jul 8, 2009)

queenspence said:


> I agree that as humans we can all be critical, hypocritical, and judgmental. However, when you have a standard or measuring stick, it should give things some balance. That's why I am glad Jesus is the perfect example and the Bible is specific about how we should conduct ourselves, shun the appearance of evil,* come out of the world, *etc.



Interpretation?  No internet, no telephones, no television, no dancing, no dating, no eating out at restaurants, no nuttin.  Because honestly, if people want to return to how people lived in Jesus' time, women wouldn't go to church when they menstruated, men would be studying the word day and night and women would work to support them...a host of other -isms with people attempting to  guilt others into more legalism.  I'm not talking about so-called legalistic orthodox Judaism, goodness knows that christians have their own legalistic hierarchical system.  

Or would it be Victorian Age in design?  Medieval?  European, Middle-eastern?  African?  No one knows what is the line between christian culture and non-christian culture.  So that's when fence laws were invented...and it's been building since Moses.  So, to some, even having a cd player is rather sinful and worldly and to others, listening to some beats while "Jesus" is in the refrain is equally considered worldly.  But if Victorian christians were to ressurect in this day and age and sit through a typical church service, we'd be reburying them 1/2 way through the service.


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## msa (Jul 8, 2009)

queenspence said:


> I think that for some artists it would be easier or more acceptable to take out Christian/Gospel and use Inspirational as their genre.




I completely agree with you.

It's interesting for me because in my musical choices I look for lyrics that are inspirational and uplifting to me. Throughout my teenagehood I found more inspiration (and positive motivation) in India Arie's music than I did anywhere else because she spoke to the exact issues I was dealing with.

There are many gospel/Christian artists that should be categorized as Inspirational and not necessarily Christian. Throwing "God" or "Praise the Lord" in the song doesn't make it Christian, that's for sure.


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## ILYandY (Jul 8, 2009)

I understand everyone's point of view and agree with some:

As for the business side of things it is not important to me it's whats in the music that matter to me for example I used to listen to rap and Lil Kim and Adina Howard and artist alike without a care in the world for G-D until I heard the " controversial " (who people claim him to be) Kirk Franklin remake of Why I sing, it wasn't until then that I started to search for G-D to gain my knowledge.

I said that to say; to a person like me Kirk Franklin made it cool to know G-D people may disagree with his style and Mary Mary style of trying to touch people but you have to understand some people didn't start going to church and or reading scriptures until those artist made songs that were trendy and not of the traditional gospel hymms.


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## divya (Jul 8, 2009)

TynaBeena said:


> I was think about that yesterday that Christians are so critical and hypocritical. That's why so many people don't get to learn of Jesus Christ becuase of the people. I'm a Christian, so don't stone me. I think it's the truth. I think so many people are judgemental and think that Christian music is supposed to be one way and music is supposed to be one way.
> 
> *I'm sorry but other religions are way nicer and act more out of love than alot of Christians I know.* That's why I'm glad my mother taught to look to the throne and not at people because someone will always have something to say about your life and you way of doing things because it doesn't fit THEIR lifestyle.



Where are you and your family from, if you don't mind me asking?


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## Renovating (Jul 9, 2009)

TynaBeena said:


> I was think about that yesterday that Christians are so critical and hypocritical. *That's why so many people don't get to learn of Jesus Christ becuase of the people.* I'm a Christian, so don't stone me. I think it's the truth. I think so many people are judgemental and think that Christian music is supposed to be one way and music is supposed to be one way.
> 
> I'm sorry but other religions are way nicer and act more out of love than alot of Christians I know. *That's why I'm glad my mother taught to look to the throne and not at people because someone will always have something to say about your life and you way of doing things because it doesn't fit THEIR lifestyle.*





ITA.


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## luvn_life (Jul 9, 2009)

Manushka said:


> How so (to the bolded)?
> 
> Everyone of us should be looking to the throne, I agree with you there.
> 
> ...



I know Muslims, Buddhists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Mormons that are way nicer. One of my mom's friends said that before she became a Christian she was studying or practicing (as you can see I don't know what you call it ) to be a Jehovah's Witness and that they were sooooo nice. Way nicer than most Christians she had encountered. She just believes that Christianity is the right religion so that is why she decided to stick with it. And I have witnessed that too. If you ask most non Christians what they think of Christians they will tell you they are judgemental, hyprocritical and just plain mean sometimes and a whole bunch of "youcan't do this and you can't do that". Heck, if a non Christian read this thread they might think that. 

Also, I think that Mary Mary's goal is to spread the good news of Jesus Christ. But to a wider audience than just older Christians. She wants to affect young people and the older generation and alot of Christian songs are just kinda boring or the same old sound. I personally like contemporary stuff like Israel and I also like the Katinas (Not sure if you've heard of them) and other groups when it comes to my Christian music.

I agree that if you decide to go into the gospel genre that you have to know that you are set apart from other genres. But, you still have to appeal to those that buy music and the younger crowd are the people that truly buy music and download(That's a true statistic). But, you have to also know that you will never please everybody and at the end of the day just try your best.

And trust me I'm not judging what you're saying at all. I understand that we all have opinions and that we are free to express them

P.S. I like your hair in your sig.


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## luvn_life (Jul 9, 2009)

divya said:


> Where are you and your family from, if you don't mind me asking?



San Diego, CALIFORNIA!!!!!

Sorry as you can see I love my home...


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## MA2010 (Jul 9, 2009)

TynaBeena said:


> I know Muslims, Buddhists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Mormons that are way nicer. One of my mom's friends said that before she became a Christian she was studying or practicing (as you can see I don't know what you call it ) to be a Jehovah's Witness and that they were sooooo nice. Way nicer than most Christians she had encountered. She just believes that Christianity is the right religion so that is why she decided to stick with it. And I have witnessed that too. If you ask most non Christians what they think of Christians they will tell you they are judgemental, hyprocritical and just plain mean sometimes and a whole bunch of "youcan't do this and you can't do that". Heck, if a non Christian read this thread they might think that.
> 
> Also, I think that Mary Mary's goal is to spread the good news of Jesus Christ. But to a wider audience than just older Christians. She wants to affect young people and the older generation and alot of Christian songs are just kinda boring or the same old sound. I personally like contemporary stuff like Israel and I also like the Katinas (Not sure if you've heard of them) and other groups when it comes to my Christian music.
> 
> ...




I can see what your mom means and thanks girlie! Your hair is beautiful!!! 

To the bolded: Mary Mary and all of us who believe in Jesus Christ should only be concerned with *appealing* to HIM first and foremost!!! 

I know it seems like a lot of scrutiny towards Mary Mary.

I really feel they should be more aware of their celebrity (whatever that means....lol) and appeal to the Lord first before stepping in front of millions of impressionable kids and ADULTS!!!!


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## queenspence (Jul 9, 2009)

AMEN TO THAT! We should strive to please HIM not them!



Manushka said:


> I can see what your mom means and thanks girlie! Your hair is beautiful!!!
> 
> To the bolded: Mary Mary and all of us who believe in Jesus Christ should only be concerned with *appealing* to HIM first and foremost!!!
> 
> ...


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## Netta1 (Jul 9, 2009)

music-bnatural-smile said:


> Stop hating on Mary Mary, please just support them and buy their music. And do the same for every Christian artist that you hear and enjoy... because they are probably broke trying to give a good word to everyone around them.



What do you mean when you say, "just" support them?


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## divya (Jul 10, 2009)

TynaBeena said:


> San Diego, CALIFORNIA!!!!!
> 
> Sorry as you can see I love my home...



Oh ok. I was actually asking because of your comments and wondering about your experiences with other religions...


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## divya (Jul 10, 2009)

TynaBeena said:


> I know Muslims, Buddhists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Mormons that are way nicer.* One of my mom's friends said that before she became a Christian she was studying or practicing (as you can see I don't know what you call it ) to be a Jehovah's Witness and that they were sooooo nice. Way nicer than most Christians she had encountered. *She just believes that Christianity is the right religion so that is why she decided to stick with it. And I have witnessed that too. If you ask most non Christians what they think of Christians they will tell you they are judgemental, hyprocritical and just plain mean sometimes and a whole bunch of "youcan't do this and you can't do that". Heck, if a non Christian read this thread they might think that.
> 
> Also, I think that Mary Mary's goal is to spread the good news of Jesus Christ. But to a wider audience than just older Christians. She wants to affect young people and the older generation and alot of Christian songs are just kinda boring or the same old sound. I personally like contemporary stuff like Israel and I also like the Katinas (Not sure if you've heard of them) and other groups when it comes to my Christian music.
> 
> ...



Jehovah's Witnesses _are_ Christians.  

http://www.watchtower.org/e/200704b/article_01.htm

http://www.watchtower.org/e/19960201/article_02.htm

So basically the nicest people she knew *were* Christians, just not part of mainstream Christianity.


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## luvn_life (Jul 10, 2009)

divya said:


> Oh ok. I was actually asking because of your comments and wondering about your experiences with other religions...



Yeah we have a little bit of everything out here I haven't had any experiences with the religions. I have only had exeriences with the people... If that makes sense


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## luvn_life (Jul 10, 2009)

divya said:


> Jehovah's Witnesses _are_ Christians.
> 
> http://www.watchtower.org/e/200704b/article_01.htm
> 
> ...




REALLY!!! I did not know that... Seriously, I didn't. So what makes them different from being a denomination from Christianity. I had a friend in high school and I don't remember what it was but their interpretation of Jesus is different from Christians... At least that's what she told me.


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## divya (Jul 10, 2009)

TynaBeena said:


> REALLY!!! I did not know that... Seriously, I didn't. So what makes them different from being a denomination from Christianity.* I had a friend in high school and I don't remember what it was but their interpretation of Jesus is different from Christians...* At least that's what she told me.



This is somewhat true. They believe that one must believe on Jesus Christ for salvation, which makes them Christians. But they do not believe that He is God. They believe that Christ is lower and was created by God. That is where they differ from other Christians, but they _are_ Christian. Maybe a JW can confirm and expound for me.

Here are their beliefs: 
http://www.watchtower.org/e/jt/index.htm


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## jaszymeen (Jul 10, 2009)

*waves i guess i'm from the younger crowd. even though i'm only 19 i grew up listening to fred hammond, mississippi mass (and basically every other mass choir out lol), john p kee and i guess all the other "old" artists. i guess from a young age i learned to appreciate good gospel music and half the crap that comes out now i am so confused i never thought i would see the day i turned on the radio to praise 92.1 and hear a "rap" song. i swear you could play the same songs at a party and people would be so busy bumpin to the beat you wouldn't even know it was a gospel song. 

i think the problem comes from a lot of people around my age not knowing what gospel music really is and what its about. they havent learned to look for the message they're so worried about whether the song has a "tight beat" or not. half these songs christian artist are putting out now days are focusing on just talking about typical aspects of being a christian and there is no real message which is why im really not a fan of gospel rap (but thats another story). 

even though a lot of artists are switching up their music to appeal to the younger crowd they're losing the message. imo they're conforming too much to the world just to get their music to sell. my dad has a lot of mary mary's earlier cd's a there's a good group of songs i like but this new song by them i heard on the radio a couple weeks back i couldnt do anything but drop my jaw in disbelief. i was like "Is this Mary Mary? It can't be". if rap songs with a little God thrown in there is the future of gospel music then i worry for future generations. i'm clutching onto my cassettes and cds for my children


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## momi (Jul 10, 2009)

TynaBeena said:


> REALLY!!! *I did not know that*... Seriously, I didn't. So what makes them different from being a denomination from Christianity. I had a friend in high school and I don't remember what it was but their interpretation of Jesus is different from Christians... At least that's what she told me.


 

You did not know that because they are not. 

 There are many reasons why this is the case, however _not believing that Jesus is God_ is primary.  They believe He is some type of archangel.  Only God has the power to forgive sin and rebuke satan... 

In addition, they claimed that Jesus was coming back in 1914 (yeah I know many who call themselves Christians are guilty of date setting) however it was never part of our doctrine as a whole.


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## momi (Jul 10, 2009)

jaszymeen said:


> *waves i guess i'm from the younger crowd. even though i'm only 19 i grew up listening to fred hammond, mississippi mass (and basically every other mass choir out lol), john p kee and i guess all the other "old" artists. i guess from a young age i learned to appreciate good gospel music and half the crap that comes out now i am so confused i never thought i would see the day i turned on the radio to praise 92.1 and hear a "rap" song. i swear you could play the same songs at a party and people would be so busy bumpin to the beat you wouldn't even know it was a gospel song.
> 
> i think the problem comes from a lot of people around my age not knowing what gospel music really is and what its about. they havent learned to look for the message they're so worried about whether the song has a "tight beat" or not. half these songs christian artist are putting out now days are focusing on just talking about typical aspects of being a christian and there is no real message which is why im really not a fan of gospel rap (but thats another story).
> 
> even though a lot of artists are switching up their music to appeal to the younger crowd they're losing the message. imo they're conforming too much to the world just to get their music to sell. my dad has a lot of mary mary's earlier cd's a there's a good group of songs i like but this new song by them i heard on the radio a couple weeks back i couldnt do anything but drop my jaw in disbelief. i was like "Is this Mary Mary? It can't be". if rap songs with a little God thrown in there is the future of gospel music then i worry for future generations. i'm clutching onto my cassettes and cds for my children


 

enough said...


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## divya (Jul 10, 2009)

jaszymeen said:


> *waves i guess i'm from the younger crowd. even though i'm only 19 i grew up listening to fred hammond, mississippi mass (and basically every other mass choir out lol), john p kee and i guess all the other "old" artists. i guess from a young age i learned to appreciate good gospel music and half the crap that comes out now i am so confused i never thought i would see the day i turned on the radio to praise 92.1 and hear a "rap" song. i swear you could play the same songs at a party and people would be so busy bumpin to the beat you wouldn't even know it was a gospel song.
> 
> i think the problem comes from a lot of people around my age not knowing what gospel music really is and what its about. they havent learned to look for the message they're so worried about whether the song has a "tight beat" or not. half these songs christian artist are putting out now days are focusing on just talking about typical aspects of being a christian and there is no real message which is why im really not a fan of gospel rap (but thats another story).
> 
> even though a lot of artists are switching up their music to appeal to the younger crowd they're losing the message. imo they're conforming too much to the world just to get their music to sell. my dad has a lot of mary mary's earlier cd's a there's a good group of songs i like but this new song by them i heard on the radio a couple weeks back i couldnt do anything but drop my jaw in disbelief. i was like "Is this Mary Mary? It can't be". if rap songs with a little God thrown in there is the future of gospel music then i worry for future generations. i'm clutching onto my cassettes and cds for my children



Thank you for sharing.


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## divya (Jul 10, 2009)

momi said:


> You did not know that *because they are not.*
> 
> There are many reasons why this is the case, however _not believing that Jesus is God_ is primary.  They believe He is some type of archangel.  Only God has the power to forgive sin and rebuke satan...
> 
> In addition, they claimed that Jesus was coming back in 1914 (yeah I know many who call themselves Christians are guilty of date setting) however it was never part of our doctrine as a whole.



What is the criteria for someone to be a Christian? 

Secondly, date setting does not negate anyone's Christianity. The Great Disappointment included Baptists (began with one), Methodists, Presbyterians etc. It was not part of their doctrines but are your claiming that these groups were not Christians? 

Also, wasn't their belief about 1914 *not* that it was the "second coming" but that the date was the start of the "last days"/"end times" and the heavenly kingdom?


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## royalty84 (Jul 10, 2009)

Well, the criteria for salvation is believing/recieving Christ into your heart as LORD. It's also evident by the display of love (loving God enough to keep his commandments, and loving others as yourself).

As far as the JWs go, I've personally studied with them, and as nice & sweet as they are, they ARE a cult, not Christians. They study the rebuttals of Christians and switch things up as they go. My pastor has old watchtowers, bibles,etc. and its obvious that they do a wonderful job at butchering up the bible/doctorine, and using all the other tactics that any other cult would use to get you in. Read John 1 in their bible, and read it in a more "standard" version (KJV, NIV,ect.) and see how they jack the word up to fit their beliefs. They base their salvation on their works(i.e. going door to door) which we know is was the bible is against, because salvation is thru grace. There's a whole lot more I can say about it, but I gotta get back to work  lol


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## divya (Jul 10, 2009)

royalty84 said:


> *Well, the criteria for salvation is believing/recieving Christ into your heart as LORD. It's also evident by the display of love (loving God enough to keep his commandments, and loving others as yourself).*
> 
> As far as the JWs go, I've personally studied with them, and as nice & sweet as they are, they ARE a cult, not Christians. They study the rebuttals of Christians and switch things up as they go. My pastor has old watchtowers, bibles,etc. and its obvious that they do a wonderful job at butchering up the bible/doctorine, and using all the other tactics that any other cult would use to get you in. Read John 1 in their bible, and read it in a more "standard" version (KJV, NIV,ect.) and see how they jack the word up to fit their beliefs. They base their salvation on their works(i.e. going door to door) which we know is was the bible is against, because salvation is thru grace. There's a whole lot more I can say about it, but I gotta get back to work  lol



The JWs official website declares the faith to be a Christian. If the bold is the criteria, then who are we to state that JWs are not Christians?

It is *not* true that JWs believe that salvation is through works. What they do NOT believe that people are "once saved always saved." That is an error that is pervasive within mainstream Christianity.  What they believe is that "belief prompts action."  See their website...



> *Many people have been told that "believing on Jesus" is a single act and that our faith does not have to be strong enough to prompt obedience. But the Bible disagrees. Jesus did not say that people who begin the Christian course are saved. Instead, he said: "He that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved." (Matthew 10:22)* The Bible likens our Christian course to a race, with salvation being the prize at its end. And it urges: "Run in such a way that you may attain it."—1 Corinthians 9:24.
> 
> Thus, "accepting Christ" involves far more than just accepting the blessings that Jesus' superlative sacrifice offers. Obedience is required. The apostle Peter says that judgment starts "with the house of God," and adds: "Now if it starts first with us, what will the end be of those who are not obedient to the good news of God?" (1 Peter 4:17) So we must do more than simply hear and believe. The Bible says that we must "become doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving [ourselves] with false reasoning."—James 1:22.http://www.watchtower.org/e/19960201/article_02.htm





> *We do not earn salvation by doing these things, for no human could ever do enough to merit such an astounding blessing.* We are not worthy of this magnificent gift, though, if we fail to demonstrate our love and obedience by doing the things that the Bible says God and Christ want us to do. Without works to demonstrate our faith, our claim to follow Jesus would fall far short, for the Bible clearly states: "Faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself."—James 2:17




While I do not agree with a significant portion of their doctrine, there is certain doctrine that is on point with Scriptures. Too many mainstream Christians are quick to call non-mainstream groups _cults_, when the truth is that their own mainstream denominations accept cult-like, _pagan_ practices that have been combined with Christianity over the years.


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## momi (Jul 10, 2009)

divya said:


> What is the criteria for someone to be a Christian?
> 
> Secondly, date setting does not negate anyone's Christianity. The Great Disappointment included Baptists (began with one), Methodists, Presbyterians etc. It was not part of their doctrines but are your claiming that these groups were not Christians?
> 
> Also, wasn't their belief about 1914 *not* that it was the "second coming" but that the date was the start of the "last days"/"end times" and the heavenly kingdom?


 
No, date setting does not negate ones salvation - it is just a bit of history about the JW... as indicated in my initial post others have done this as well, it is just not part of the doctrine as a whole, just random "believers"
And no it was not the start of the end times, this was later changed after the prediction did not come to pass.

What makes one a Christian is the belief in Jesus to cover and forgive sin, without that we can have no relationship with God.  There arent enough good works or soul winning to grant us access to the kindgom.  Without Jesus' blood there is no remission of sin.  Jesus can only forgive sin because He is God.  If you dont believe He is God, who is taking care of your sin?

Again, there are many other examples of the JW twisting scripture - IMHO this one is most significant.


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## divya (Jul 10, 2009)

momi said:


> No, date setting does not negate ones salvation - it is just a bit of history about the JW... as indicated in my initial post others have done this as well, it is just not part of the doctrine as a whole, just random "believers"
> And no it was not the start of the end times, this was later changed after the prediction did not come to pass.
> 
> *What makes one a Christian is the belief in Jesus to cover and forgive sin, without that we can have no relationship with God.  There arent enough good works or soul winning to grant us access to the kindgom.*  Without Jesus' blood there is no remission of sin.  Jesus can only forgive sin because He is God.  If you dont believe He is God, who is taking care of your sin?
> ...



Agree with the bold - see the posted information from their website.  I believe Jesus is God, and so I strong disagree with their stance on His Divinity. However, it is only fair to be truthful when it comes to their actual beliefs.


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## Ramya (Jul 10, 2009)

Please be careful with lumping all artists together because of the disappointments of others. This whole gospel *rap* genre is a new thing but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it based on 1 or 2 artists that missed the mark. There are artists that are biblical and genuine. I believe that God gives us all gifts that can be used for His glory. All of us can't sing but some of us can write. Rappers are typically poets and writers and maybe that's their way of praising God. Why not use your talent for God? Singing is not the only way to make a joyful noise unto the Lord. As with all media, the content is important. If the content is scriptural and the delivery is appropriate, what's the issue?


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## blazingthru (Jul 11, 2009)

divya said:


> Too many mainstream Christians are quick to call non-mainstream groups _cults_, when the truth is that their own mainstream denominations accept cult-like, _pagan_ practices that have been combined with Christianity over the years.


 
I agree 100% imagine my shock when I searched the bible for Lent, Easter, and other "spiritual" celebrations only to find its not in there they are man made and they follow a tradition with not very good roots. Yet many churches practice.


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## royalty84 (Jul 12, 2009)

Ramya said:


> Please be careful with lumping all artists together because of the disappointments of others. This whole gospel *rap* genre is a new thing but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it based on 1 or 2 artists that missed the mark. There are artists that are biblical and genuine. I believe that God gives us all gifts that can be used for His glory. All of us can't sing but some of us can write. Rappers are typically poets and writers and maybe that's their way of praising God. Why not use your talent for God? Singing is not the only way to make a joyful noise unto the Lord. As with all media, the content is important. If the content is scriptural and the delivery is appropriate, what's the issue?



So True! I dare anyone to listen to gospel rap artists such as Lecrae, ShoBaraka, Trip Lee, Flame, & Tedashi, and tell me that they don't deliver! Their songs are more edifying and preach more of the gospel than the songs from many of these gospel singers out here who sing the same old tired stuff over & over again as if there's a recession on creativity


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## music-bnatural-smile (Jul 12, 2009)

I have a solution...
Lets just all be PERFECT!!! 
Since its possible... LOL


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## life_is_great (Jul 14, 2009)

royalty84 said:


> So True! I dare anyone to listen to gospel rap artists such as Lecrae, ShoBaraka, Trip Lee, Flame, & Tedashi, and tell me that they don't deliver! Their songs are more edifying and preach more of the gospel than the songs from many of these gospel singers out here who sing the same old tired stuff over & over again as if there's a recession on creativity


 
My 15 year old daughter listens to Christian Rap, Christian Hip Hop and Contemporary Christian.  I prefer her listen to this instead of Lil Wayne, Soulja Boy and many other secular artists.  If you have teenagers, what do they listen to?


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## Pooks (Jul 15, 2009)

double post - deleted


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## Pooks (Jul 15, 2009)

divya said:


> Too many mainstream Christians are quick to call non-mainstream groups _cults_, when the truth is that their own mainstream denominations accept cult-like, _pagan_ practices that have been combined with Christianity over the years.


 


blazingthru said:


> I agree 100% imagine my shock when I searched the bible for Lent, Easter, and other "spiritual" celebrations only to find its not in there they are man made and they follow a tradition with not very good roots. Yet many churches practice.


 
Off topic but these posts are on point, I totally agree.  Do the research and find that  many so called "Christian" holidays/festivals originate from paganistic celebrations/rituals...  I do not celebrate Lent, Easter, Christmas, etc for all these reasons.


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## Pooks (Jul 15, 2009)

Mrs_No_More said:


> My 15 year old daughter listens to Christian Rap, Christian Hip Hop and Contemporary Christian. I prefer her listen to this instead of Lil Wayne, Soulja Boy and many other secular artists. If you have teenagers, what do they listen to?


 
IMO musical preference changes with age and spiritual maturity.  Let her be a teen, as long as she is listening to gospel rap, etc I wouldn't sweat it but be happy, its waaaaaay better than listening to the foolishness n filth R&B artists put out there - as she gets older her tastes may well change.
It's my experience that as you mature (in age and/or in the Lord) your preference tends to move to less 'worldly' sounding music/artists and more towards worshipful edifying musical 'food' for your soul.  Don't get me wrong, I still love listening to and singing 'urban', reggae and other kinds of contemporary gospel music _as well as_ old classics, choir songs and worship music that will transform an atmosphere and literally usher you into the presence of God.


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## Pooks (Jul 15, 2009)

In response to OP's post, we know it is hard for Christian artists to put out records, and it costs alot, etc. But they are public figures, out there and people will give their opinions and pass judgement, just the same way as people talk about secular artists.  Its part of the territory.

Being a Christian artist you have alot more to live up to - does my life and music please God? Is my music edifying to the hearer? And yes Christians will speak up if they feel the message is off, too diluted, altogether absent or tainted too much with worldly influence, and rightly so, IMO.


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