# The Gift of Singleness



## Bunny77 (Oct 27, 2007)

NOT at all what you think... I've been doing a lot of research and thinking over the summer about being single, etc., and after reading this blog and the book recommended in this blog, I have done a complete 180!

I thank God for this breakthrough and I hope it helps some other ladies here as well... 

http://thegiftofsingleness.blogspot.com/

*It has recently been decided that singleness is a "gift", therefore singles should be content, wait on the Lord and God will just land the perfect husband or wife in our laps at the right time - or not. Alternatively, like all Christian leaders and theologians prior to our generation, you could take the view that this is a load of horsefeathers... This blog is brought to you by the voice of Biblical reason, Captain Sensible, and his nutty sidekick, Frieda Fruitcake.*

And also... Debbie Maken's book is the best one I've purchased in a LONG time!

Here's a review of it...
http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001254.cfm

Here's where to get it...
http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Serious-About-Married-Rethinking/dp/1581347413


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## *Muffin* (Oct 28, 2007)

I remember reading in the Bible the Apostle Paul speaking of the gift of singleness.  He said that it is a blessing because you have no distractions and you can be 100% devoted to God, whereas when you are married part of your devotion must go to your husband and any children that come along.  He also said that if you absolutely cannot stay single, as in you may commit fornication because of your "needs", then go ahead and get married.  Being single isn't worth committing a sin.  There's benefits of being married and being single.  I guess it's up to each individual to determine what's right for them. Great topic, BTW .


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## PaperClip (Oct 28, 2007)

ccmuffingirl said:


> *Being single isn't worth committing a sin.* There's benefits of being married and being single. I guess it's up to each individual to determine what's right for them.


 
I'd appreciate some clarity on this comment, esp. the bolded part....

Of course there are benefits on both sides (singleness vs. marriage). I have come into greater recognition that, simply put, just because the grass LOOKS greener doesn't mean it is GREENER or BETTER, particularly if it is the Lord's will that one be in a particular state at a particular time....

The Bible says that it is better to marry than to burn.... I cannot lie.... I'm burning right now.... and I love the Lord....and those who frequent the Christian forum know my story...my age... but for the grace of God....


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## Bunny77 (Oct 28, 2007)

Hi CC! Thanks for the kind words. I'll respond more to your post later when I'm near my Bible and can transcribe I Corinthians 7, which is the verse in which the Apostle Paul talks about singleness... Debbie Maken and her supporters have an interpretation of that verse that I hadn't heard before and I'll detail it more when I get a chance.

Meanwhile, here is one of the latest posts on the Gift of Singleness blog (based in England, btw... but it sounds like they're going through the same things as we are). I LOVE what they are saying here!!!

P.S. RelaxerRehab, have you heard of Maken's book and read any of these types of works? I have read many of your posts and I really thought of you when I was reading this material...  I'd be interested in your thoughts!  

*Christianity magazine: A glimmer of hope?*
Captain Sensible writes: I was encouraged by a letter in the November issue of Christianity magazine, particularly as it received top billing. 
The letter begins:

"I had mixed feelings as I read the various letters that have appeared in Feedback recently regarding Christian singles and the church. Dare I believe that at last the murmurings of many singles over the years are at last being picked up by others?"

She describes herself as a single woman in her late 30s, and goes on to say:

"Some of the women I know have given up all hope of ever finding a Christian husband and have found Christian dating sites to be ineffective. Some are choosing to turn to non-Christian sites as they are finding partners who are genuinely interested in them and developing real relationships. When are Christian leaders going to wake up to this epidemic of a problem? What exactly are they teaching you at theological colleges? These are real life issues and have been for many years. We shouldn't be surprised if more disillusioned ladies begin a search for husbands within a secular setting.

"I wonder how many of you would make it through a year celibate and home alone?"

Interesting stuff, and that challenge to church leaders is superb! The only issue I have with what I have highlighted from the letter, is that she doesn't make a distinction between believers and unbelievers in the secular world. If the women are finding real relationships with believers that feel excluded from "church" (something I am seeing more and more of myself) then that is to be celebrated. If however they are finding relationships with unbelievers, then that is a problem that the church leaders must deal with. And how should they deal with it? NOT by telling the women to be content and wait on the Lord, that's for sure! They should be shifting their primary focus to outreach to men, and in the meantime help and pray for the women as they navigate the secular dating world, so that they can find believing men and help shepherd these men into the fold. 

It really isn't rocket science -- is it?


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## PaperClip (Oct 28, 2007)

Hey, Bunny:

Nope, I haven't come across Maken's book but I'm curious to see what she is saying.... I feel like I've heard it all, though....

Sooooo overdone with the cliches....


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## Bunny77 (Oct 28, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Hey, Bunny:
> 
> Nope, I haven't come across Maken's book but I'm curious to see what she is saying.... I feel like I've heard it all, though....
> 
> Sooooo overdone with the cliches....



TRUST ME, she is anti-cliche... that's why I recommend it.

The point of her book is to say that all of the cliches about singleness are incorrect and not at all Biblically sound and that we should all be seeking marriage. She believes that this focus on singleness as a gift is actually hurting the proper formation of families through marriage and that Satan is probably having a ball seeing all these single and suffering Christian women being told by the church to just "wait on the lord."

She is the first one I've read who has said that it's GOOD to be bummed about one's singleness and that God created us to want and need a spouse... so we should not feel bad at all for wanting that AND that churches need to do a better job helping people get MARRIED, not telling them to stay single!  

She also gives advice on how to be proactive in a Godly way about finding a spouse. I am starting to do that right now and have taken a few steps in that direction using some of her tips. 

(Now, I don't agree with everything in the book, but what I just typed is the general idea.)


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## Bunny77 (Oct 28, 2007)

ccmuffingirl said:


> I remember reading in the Bible the Apostle Paul speaking of the gift of singleness.  He said that it is a blessing because you have no distractions and you can be 100% devoted to God, whereas when you are married part of your devotion must go to your husband and any children that come along.  He also said that if you absolutely cannot stay single, as in you may commit fornication because of your "needs", then go ahead and get married.  Being single isn't worth committing a sin.  There's benefits of being married and being single.  I guess it's up to each individual to determine what's right for them. Great topic, BTW .



I think the concern that some of the authors I've read recently have is that I Corinthians 7 is being improperly applied to people (notably women) who are single for longer than they'd like and desire a husband.  The argument is that when Paul is speaking of serving the Lord while being single, he's talking heavy duty service such as he did traveling to different nations spreading the Gospel, getting shipwrecked and the like. 

Now, most of us aren't doing anything like that. We might volunteer in our communities, in our churches, etc., but none of those things provide justification for staying single well into one's 30s-40s or longer if marriage is desired. In fact, studies show that it's often married couples that do the most in the church... and if singleness was such a blessing, then why aren't more pastors single? They obviously thought it was important to marry, so why should they push singleness on those who don't want to be?

Also, it is argued that the "gift of singleness" is really a "gift of celibacy." Those who choose to stay single to serve the Lord often are gifted by God to not have sexual needs and desires... but this is a rare bunch... maybe your nuns, priests, Mother Teresa and folks like that... most of us average people who are abstinent/waiting are simply fighting against our God-given desires while we hope for a partner to come along.

That's no gift... basically, most of us are not "gifted" with singleness, but a desire to marry. And the issue is that many of us aren't allowed to express that desire without getting a lecture about why we should be "content" and accept this "gift of singleness" from God.

Just FYI, I am not against anyone choosing to be single. I think there are ups and downs to singlehood and marriage. But I am saying that women should be freed from this belief that they have to be happy -- or at least "content" with being single because it's some kind of gift... I don't necessarily think it is.


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## PaperClip (Oct 28, 2007)

Bunny77 said:


> I think the concern that some of the authors I've read recently have is that I Corinthians 7 is being improperly applied to people (notably women) who are single for longer than they'd like and desire a husband. The argument is that when Paul is speaking of serving the Lord while being single, he's talking heavy duty service such as he did traveling to different nations spreading the Gospel, getting shipwrecked and the like.
> 
> Now, most of us aren't doing anything like that. We might volunteer in our communities, in our churches, etc., but none of those things provide justification for staying single well into one's 30s-40s or longer if marriage is desired. In fact, studies show that it's often married couples that do the most in the church... and if singleness was such a blessing, then why aren't more pastors single? They obviously thought it was important to marry, so why should they push singleness on those who don't want to be?
> 
> ...


 
We don't even have to go that far with regard to Paul's situation, in my humble opinion.... If Paul was a laymember or the great apostle he was, he apparently had a "gift" of singleness/celibacy, etc. In 1 Corinthians 7:7, he said that he wished ALL MEN were as he was... that includes the laymember, pastor, evangelist, apostle, so on and so forth, regardless of gender, race, sexual orientation, even (but the sexual orientation thing is another convo altogether).

I mean, can it be called a "gift" if one doesn't "want" it? 

I don't know if I agree with the point that marrieds do more in the church in comparison to singles. I might be inclined to agree if it were said that married folk were ALLOWED THE OPPORTUNITY to do more.... It seems that (in my church at least), that the more public/visible forms of service are given to the married folk.... and my church has more unmarried/single folk than married folk right now (single inclusive of single parents, widows, along with never-marrieds, etc.)

I should add that for the most part, I don't hear the "be content in singleness" argument as much as a context of being seemingly inadequate and unprepared, spiritually and naturally. Like I need to pray more, lose weight, stop doubting, straighten my hair, lighten my skin, clean the house, ask a man, even.... Sigh....

I agree with the notion of the rarity of folk who are content (long-term) in celibacy.... I have personally NEVER met anyone with such content. EVER....


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## Bunny77 (Oct 28, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> I don't know if I agree with the point that marrieds do more in the church in comparison to singles. I might be inclined to agree if it were said that married folk were ALLOWED THE OPPORTUNITY to do more.... It seems that (in my church at least), that the more public/visible forms of service are given to the married folk.... and my church has more unmarried/single folk than married folk right now (single inclusive of single parents, widows, along with never-marrieds, etc.)



Okay, I've seen a different experience, but I see what you're saying.



> I should add that for the most part, I don't hear the "be content in singleness" argument as much as a context of being seemingly inadequate and unprepared, spiritually and naturally. Like I need to pray more, lose weight, stop doubting, straighten my hair, lighten my skin, clean the house, ask a man, even.... Sigh....



Here's Maken's response to some to that. (some excerpts)
"You have to be the right person to meet the right person." 

This sounds good and wise, but it presumes that God withholds a spouse for someone based on spiritual "rightness," painting an inaccurate picture of God and his plans for his people. It also represents the works-righteousness version of achieving marriage, like it's some sort of bonus incentive program for the super-sanctified. It is God's will that we be sanctified, but that is not a yardstick by which he measures our marriage readiness.

I can't imagine God sitting in heaven thinking, 'I really wanted Jane to learn that one extra lesson in sanctification and since she failed, I guess I'll have to pass on that heart surgeon I had in mind for her.'

God is our heavenly Father who loves to give good gifts to his children. Marriage is not a carrot he's holding out in hopes we'll go the extra mile.


Good stuff.


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## *Muffin* (Oct 28, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> I'd appreciate some clarity on this comment, esp. the bolded part....
> 
> Of course there are benefits on both sides (singleness vs. marriage). I have come into greater recognition that, simply put, just because the grass LOOKS greener doesn't mean it is GREENER or BETTER, particularly if it is the Lord's will that one be in a particular state at a particular time....
> 
> The Bible says that it is better to marry than to burn.... I cannot lie.... I'm burning right now.... and I love the Lord....and those who frequent the Christian forum know my story...my age... but for the grace of God....


 
What I mean is that if you feel that sometime in the future you are going to have sex, then singleness isn't for you in the long-term sense. It's not worth risking committing fornication.  I believe both singleness and marriage can be a blessing; it's just up to us individually to decide which one is best for us.


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## GlamourGirl (Oct 28, 2007)

Bunny77, thanks so much for posting this book and blospot. I needed this. I've been praying for God to confirm that He wants me to be married. I've been reading some books on being single and the one thing that they always say is "if it's God's will for you to be married" or "If God has called you to a life of singleness then"... I really believe that this message that I've come across is my confirmation along with some other things recently. Thanks again. It's been a blessing to me.


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## Bunny77 (Oct 28, 2007)

GlamourGirl said:


> Bunny77, thanks so much for posting this book and blospot. I needed this. I've been praying for God to confirm that He wants me to be married. I've been reading some books on being single and the one thing that they always say is "if it's God's will for you to be married" or "If God has called you to a life of singleness then"... I really believe that this message that I've come across is my confirmation along with some other things recently. Thanks again. It's been a blessing to me.





I'm so glad this was helpful to you! This came right on time to me this summer as well when I was questioning a number of things, but I didn't buy the book until last week, for some reason. 

Also, here's another link... Candice Watters of Boundless is releasing a book on the same subject in January, but she's started a very inspirational website encouraging us to "pray boldly" for each other in regards to marriage. 

(Hmm... that might be worth another thread...)


http://www.helpgetmarried.com/page

*Getting married is more than a lifestyle option or just something that would be “nice if it happens.” Not only is marriage good and natural to want, it’s what most of us are called to pursue.

That’s the message of my book, Get Married: What Women Can Do to Help it Happen.

There’s a difference between making it happen and helping it happen. This isn’t a book about desperation or the hyper activity of joining every dating service and singles group. It’s not about making cold calls or tackling a list of 100 tips for meeting hot men.

Get Married is about living like you’re planning to marry. It presents a lifestyle that esteems marriage, encourages men, empowers women, and embraces Christian community and a biblical understanding of what marriage is for. Most importantly, it shows women that marriage is a worthy goal that’s within their grasp.

You can be content with where you are today and still desire marriage in a way that honors God. And there are things you can do to help it happen.

Ready to start the journey? Read the excerpt that follows, then order the book.*


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## janiebaby (Oct 29, 2007)

Thank you so much for posting this Bunny!!


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## janiebaby (Oct 29, 2007)

I also found this article written from a man's point of view:

http://www.sistagirlnetwork.com/bropov2.html


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## Browndilocks (Oct 29, 2007)

Bunny77 said:


> I think the concern that some of the authors I've read recently have is that I Corinthians 7 is being improperly applied to people (notably women) who are single for longer than they'd like and desire a husband.  The argument is that when Paul is speaking of serving the Lord while being single, he's talking heavy duty service such as he did traveling to different nations spreading the Gospel, getting shipwrecked and the like.
> 
> Now, most of us aren't doing anything like that. We might volunteer in our communities, in our churches, etc., but none of those things provide justification for staying single well into one's 30s-40s or longer if marriage is desired. In fact, studies show that it's often married couples that do the most in the church... and if singleness was such a blessing, then why aren't more pastors single? They obviously thought it was important to marry, so why should they push singleness on those who don't want to be?
> 
> ...




I'm honestly to the point where if I see anything related to SINGLEs in church, I run in the opposite direction.  In one church out here, they boast on how the singles ministry has grown from a few to hundreds over the past few years. erplexed. It just seems to me that the _growth_ of singles ministries is counter-productive. Especially when 75% of that ministry is made up of women but still being led by a man...

Another church that I sometimes visit has an elder lady (mother such and such) as the head of the singles ministry.  While she has been single for some years now, she's a GRANDMOTHER.  At one time or another and probably when she was my age she was groovin.  I have tried but I can't be completely accepting of her guidance.

SIGH.

This may sound very spiritually immature to say but I feel like singles ministries and all the stupid things that some leaders say and expect you to do will actually hold you back from getting a man.

To my surprize, I have found Michelle Mickkiney Hammond's "What to Do Until Love Finds You" a very inspirational read.  Now I'm going to check out this author that Bunny recommended.


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## Bunny77 (Oct 29, 2007)

Browndilocks said:


> I'm honestly to the point where if I see anything related to SINGLEs in church, I run in the opposite direction.  In one church out here, they boast on how the singles ministry has grown from a few to hundreds over the past few years. erplexed. It just seems to me that the _growth_ of singles ministries is counter-productive. Especially when 75% of that ministry is made up of women but still being led by a man...
> 
> Another church that I sometimes visit has an elder lady (mother such and such) as the head of the singles ministry.  While she has been single for some years now, she's a GRANDMOTHER.  At one time or another and probably when she was my age she was groovin.  I have tried but I can't be completely accepting of her guidance.
> 
> ...



I agree with everything you posted, especially the bolded.

In the "Getting Serious About Getting Married" book, Debbie Maken said that part of her journey toward marriage was getting OUT of the singles ministry at her church. She started in it when she was in her early 20s and wondered about the women in it who were in their late 20s-early 30s, but didn't think much of it.

Then when she became one of those women, she was like, "ENOUGH! Shouldn't I have graduated from this now?" She said she walked out and started to take matters into her own hands... and within a few years, she was married.

Someone who commented on her blog or the Gift of Singleness blog (can't remember which one) said the same thing. She was single until she was 37 after listening to everything she heard about contentment and stuff, but when she made an effort toward getting married, it happened in a year!

By effort, these women weren't chasing men, but they began doing more to increase their access to men looking for marriage... asking family/friends for introductions, trying matchmaking services, etc.

One of Maken's recommendations is also to re-evaluate your participation in a singles ministry because a lot of times, they become glorified buddy systems. There are too many women and not enough men, and then oftentimes, the men aren't necessarily encouraged to pursue (in a Godly way, of course), the women.

So everyone is all buddy-buddy, but is anyone really getting together?

And not to mention, the more people tell you about being content in singleness or not being ready for marriage, I think it mentally takes your focus away from preparing to be married! Which is the opposite of what should happen!

If I'm spending all of my time analyzing every little part of me to figure out why I'm unattached, or reading material about maximizing my single life, and taking on more activities/groups/friendships/etc., to minimize my loneliness, it's just taking me away from what I REALLY want and need -- a spouse. 

(And why is it that many of the writers on singleness stay single???? And also, notice that many of the church leaders/outsiders who talk about giving up one's desire for marriage... are MARRIED????) 

I'm also looking forward to Candice Watters' book, Get Married: What Women Can Do to Help it Happen."  I think it will be even better than Debbie Maken's, because Debbie can be a little abrasive at times in her book, and I can relate to Candice a little more for some reason...  but both women have the same idea!

Keep it coming ladies!


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## PaperClip (Oct 29, 2007)

Y'all talking good and REAL up in here....

Browndilocks, I'm 99 percent sure I've attended my LAST singles event after this month (my church had a singles conference and maybe 100 folk showed (my church has like up to 4,000 folk...and most of the folk that attended the conference were probably not from my church)....


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## PaperClip (Oct 29, 2007)

ccmuffingirl said:


> *What I mean is that if you feel that sometime in the future you are going to have sex, then singleness isn't for you in the long-term sense.* It's not worth risking committing fornication. I believe both singleness and marriage can be a blessing; it's just up to us individually to decide which one is best for us.


 
Again, what does that mean? I feel that I am going to have sex, and I could, 'cause I'm sure that I could find a willing guy, but what about the RIGHT guy? I'm sorry but this line of thinking is not edifying or purposeful.... I think people know what they are inclined to do, despite they are inclined to do is not best for them....

It seems that people who are kinda calm about such matters are either married, a eunuch, or fornicatin'.... or my goodness, maybe a person has found a sense of contentment for their God-given sexual inclinations....

Pardon my frustration....


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## Bunny77 (Oct 29, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Again, what does that mean? I feel that I am going to have sex, and I could, 'cause I'm sure that I could find a willing guy, but what about the RIGHT guy? I'm sorry but this line of thinking is not edifying or purposeful.... I think people know what they are inclined to do, despite they are inclined to do is not best for them....
> 
> *It seems that people who are kinda calm about such matters are either married, a eunuch, or fornicatin'.... or my goodness, maybe a person has found a sense of contentment for their God-given sexual inclinations....*
> 
> Pardon my frustration....



Or young...

Not that there's anything wrong with being young, but it's a lot easier to be content about being celibate/a virgin when you're say, 19-20, than when you're 29-30 or older! 

Abstinence teaching is great, but the goal is supposed to be that one's abstinent period will end with marriage. What's the point of encouraging abstinence if a person feels they'll never get to experience sex? How can a church say "Wait until marriage," and then turn around and say, "Well, you aren't ready to be married because blah blah blah... oh yeah, and stay abstinent!"

From Debbie's blog... (and no, I'm not Debbie... I know I'm quoting her ALL THE TIME, but her writing has been great food for my soul!!!)

*Moreover, while a rare few singles can successfully run the abstinence marathon, most have proven to be miserable failures because they are running a course contrary to their inborn nature. Thus, can God really be glorified when most singles will fail a major component of glorified singleness?

God creates us in the way we have to go. For example, since God has created us to do work (Gen. 1:26, 28 ), it is incumbent upon all those who are physically able to do so, especially while they are young and have youth and vigor on their side. Those who are lazy will be judged; they were poor stewards of their health, bodies and minds. (Tit. 2:7; Eph. 4:28) The excuses of calling confusion and perpetual schooling can only work for so long. The same sort of logic should work for our inborn sexual natures in being made “male and female.” (Gen. 1:27; 2:24-25).

God is not going to create a race of people to be sexual beings only to hope that they can diffuse such urges for years and decades because they suffer the cruelties of being born into a culture with a disorganized mating system. Thus, the only question remains whether singles should choose to pursue an estate more consistent with their sexual nature or resign themselves to the self-imposed sterility by remaining single without actually having the enabling gift of celibacy or the physical disablement of a eunuch.*


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## *Muffin* (Oct 29, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Again, what does that mean? I feel that I am going to have sex, and I could, 'cause I'm sure that I could find a willing guy, but what about the RIGHT guy? I'm sorry but this line of thinking is not edifying or purposeful.... I think people know what they are inclined to do, despite they are inclined to do is not best for them....
> 
> It seems that people who are kinda calm about such matters are either married, a eunuch, or fornicatin'.... or my goodness, maybe a person has found a sense of contentment for their God-given sexual inclinations....
> 
> Pardon my frustration....


 
Frustration Pardoned . I hope you didn't take any offense to my post, because I didn't mean to offend anyone. I'm just speaking from a Biblical point of view. I also believe that people know very well their inclinations and whether or not they want to engage in sexual intercourse or not, but the Bible states that if a person plans on having sex be apart of their life (which most people do), they must also plan on marriage being apart of their life. I know that saying something and doing something are two completely different things. I'm 20 and I'm abstinent, and it's not always easy. It's only natural to have desires, but I try not to let those desires take over me before I get married. I'm not trying to judge anyone or say that someone is wrong for taking a particular course of action. And also my interpretation of the Bible may be different than yours or someone elses. I'm just responding from the way I learned the subject from the Bible.


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## GlamourGirl (Oct 29, 2007)

Bunny77 said:


> I agree with everything you posted, especially the bolded.
> 
> In the "Getting Serious About Getting Married" book, Debbie Maken said that part of her journey toward marriage was getting OUT of the singles ministry at her church. She started in it when she was in her early 20s and wondered about the women in it who were in their late 20s-early 30s, but didn't think much of it.
> 
> ...



Isn't that the truth! I couldn't agree more. And I am so looking forward to her book as well. Have you checked out her Youtube video where she's talking about her book? And her testimony regarding her 30 friends is pretty amazing.


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## Browndilocks (Oct 29, 2007)

Bunny77 said:


> I agree with everything you posted, especially the bolded.
> 
> In the "Getting Serious About Getting Married" book, Debbie Maken said that part of her journey toward marriage was getting OUT of the singles ministry at her church. She started in it when she was in her early 20s and wondered about the women in it who were in their late 20s-early 30s, but didn't think much of it.
> 
> ...



My responses are above.


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## GoingBack (Oct 29, 2007)

Singleness may be a gift, but I don't want mine anymore. Someone else can have it. erplexed


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## Bunny77 (Oct 29, 2007)

GlamourGirl said:


> Isn't that the truth! I couldn't agree more. And I am so looking forward to her book as well. Have you checked out her Youtube video where she's talking about her book? And her testimony regarding her 30 friends is pretty amazing.



I did see the YouTube video and it was inspiring. Maybe we can do a prayer circle on the board like Candice did... I know we've got a lot of prayer and fasting teams going, which is great, but this can be a specific one!

Here's the YouTube link... Author Candice Watters explains why she wrote her "Get Married" book... I think many of us can relate!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe8_7rcuhcM



Amarachi said:


> Singleness may be a gift, but I don't want mine anymore. Someone else can have it. erplexed



Well you are in the right thread! Read some of the links and join in the discussion!


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## Bunny77 (Oct 29, 2007)

Browndilocks, I'm mad at your friend! It's great to do things with women and with your singles group... I just think that we have to REALLY think about the decisions we make and if our "singles" activities prevent us from doing things that can help us meet more quality men...

As for Michelle McKinney Hammond, I agree that she's a fabulous woman and has good tips... and some folks need to know how to be happy while single (specifically those who jump from man to man because they don't love themselves), but the message should not be geared to keep you single forever and ever and ever!

And yes, I believe there's someone for everyone... and another question... I've never heard a man being told that he needs to "get ready" to marry, nor that he's "not ready" as the reason that he's single. Only women are told this, so why is that? Hmmm....  Also, the people that I know who are married RARELY talk about how they had to get ready and then they met their mate. Their stories just usually go, "Oh he was my friend since college," or "I met him through my cousin," or whatever. None of this "I spent 10 years preparing myself and then God just sent him to me!"

Hey, I've got it going on too... I am ready just as I am for a good man, and he is ready for me, just as he is. I'd say that for nearly every woman on this forum!

*I really do not believe that the process of pairing with a mate is a subject that has to be treated like rocket science. It should feel more like Committed Love 101.*

Yep, we make this much harder than it needs to be. And it's not working for most women, particularly black women.


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## prettywhitty (Oct 29, 2007)

I'll come back later and post my thoughts on this issue. i agree with a lot that is being said. We need to get real about what we desire, and desiring a Godly spouse is not a bad thing. I will be reading the mentioned books.

I also wanted to mention that I avoid that singles ministry stuff, because it's a bunch of women at ny church. Men avoid them....I'll be back withmore.


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## PaperClip (Oct 29, 2007)

ccmuffingirl said:


> Frustration Pardoned . I hope you didn't take any offense to my post, because I didn't mean to offend anyone. I'm just speaking from a Biblical point of view. I also believe that people know very well their inclinations and whether or not they want to engage in sexual intercourse or not, but the Bible states that if a person plans on having sex be apart of their life (which most people do), they must also plan on marriage being apart of their life. I know that saying something and doing something are two completely different things. I'm 20 and I'm abstinent, and it's not always easy. It's only natural to have desires, but I try not to let those desires take over me before I get married. I'm not trying to judge anyone or say that someone is wrong for taking a particular course of action. And also my interpretation of the Bible may be different than yours or someone elses. I'm just responding from the way I learned the subject from the Bible.


 
Ah... that explains it... you're 20... not dismissing your age... but I remember feeling that way at your age. I thought I would be married (with children) now...having "legal" sex. I'm almost twice your age and I thought marriage would happen.... And for quite a while, I buried my sexual desires and desires for marriage, mainly in food, in school, in church service, but I have become more and more miserable with all of it....

Very recently, I'm ashamed to say, I was willing to compromise my spiritual integrity.... Thank the Lord I didn't but it has forced me to acknowledge that I do not have the "gift" of singleness and that something's got to move for me...seriously.

So when you say "plan" to have sex and "plan" on marriage being a part of my life, I DID PLAN ON ALL OF THAT HAPPENING.... I sat in church expecting that ideal husband to walk up to me and announce his arrival. I FINALLY WOKE UP.... so now I have to be much more proactive.... and hopefully Candice's book can help me with this....


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## *Muffin* (Oct 29, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Ah... that explains it... you're 20... not dismissing your age... but I remember feeling that way at your age. I thought I would be married (with children) now...having "legal" sex. I'm almost twice your age and I thought marriage would happen.... And for quite a while, I buried my sexual desires and desires for marriage, mainly in food, in school, in church service, but I have become more and more miserable with all of it....
> 
> Very recently, I'm ashamed to say, I was willing to compromise my spiritual integrity.... Thank the Lord I didn't but it has forced me to acknowledge that I do not have the "gift" of singleness and that something's got to move for me...seriously.
> 
> So when you say "plan" to have sex and "plan" on marriage being a part of my life, I DID PLAN ON ALL OF THAT HAPPENING.... I sat in church expecting that ideal husband to walk up to me and announce his arrival. I FINALLY WOKE UP.... so now I have to be much more proactive.... and hopefully Candice's book can help me with this....


 
I remember when I was sixteen I told myself "I'm NEVER going to get married." I just wanted to devote my life to God and I didn't feel a strong desire to have a man in my life (I guess it's because I was only sixteen). Now that I'm twenty I feel somewhat differently. I'm still happy being single, but I'm starting to imagine that having children and a family in the future would be nice. I feel that I'm at a stage where I have to make a lot of decisions on what I want to do with my life in the future, husband included. I'm glad you didn't compromise your spiritual integrity. It seems like it's so hard to find a good man nowadays. Maybe it is because we aren't being proactive enough. I've never read Candice's book, but it sounds interesting.


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## GlamourGirl (Oct 29, 2007)

Bunny77 said:


> I did see the YouTube video and it was inspiring. *Maybe we can do a prayer circle on the board like Candice did... I know we've got a lot of prayer and fasting teams going, which is great, but this can be a specific one!
> *
> Here's the YouTube link... Author Candice Watters explains why she wrote her "Get Married" book... I think many of us can relate!
> 
> ...



I definitely would love to get one started. In fact on the link you gave me to Candice's site she has it set up so that women can join and create a group and begin to pray for each others mates. I have already joined and want to start a group.


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## PaperClip (Oct 29, 2007)

GlamourGirl said:


> I definitely would love to get one started. In fact on the link you gave me to Candice's site she has it set up so that women can join and create a group and begin to pray for each others mates. I have already joined and want to start a group.


 
I'm a bit reluctant to participate in such a group because I'm VERY CAREFUL about who I pray with but at the same time, it is SO VERY SAD that I feel that there is no one in my real life who I feel like I can reach out to to touch and agree with me in this situation.... 

Here's what just came to my mind to do: I'll send an email to my circle of sisters about this specific matter and if they would agree with me in prayer for marriage. I'm sure they will have their commentaries to offer concerning what I should do, what I need to learn, etc. I'll report back what they said....

Of course I salute the idea of a prayer circle specifically targeting this, but at the same time I'm VERY CAREFUL about who I pray with...prayer is very powerful...intimate...vulnerable....


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## GlamourGirl (Oct 29, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> I'm a bit reluctant to participate in such a group because I'm VERY CAREFUL about who I pray with but at the same time, it is SO VERY SAD that I feel that there is no one in my real life who I feel like I can reach out to to touch and agree with me in this situation....
> 
> Here's what just came to my mind to do: I'll send an email to my circle of sisters about this specific matter and if they would agree with me in prayer for marriage. I'm sure they will have their commentaries to offer concerning what I should do, what I need to learn, etc. I'll report back what they said....
> 
> Of course I salute the idea of a prayer circle specifically targeting this, but at the same time I'm VERY CAREFUL about who I pray with...prayer is very powerful...intimate...vulnerable....



RelaxerRehab, you're very right about that. Unfortunately I really don't have a sister circle (I really wish I did) that I could have pray for me. That's why I was hoping for some of the ladies from the board but when you put it like that it makes me think too. I can relate to you when you say you don't really have anyone to touch and agree with you.


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## Bunny77 (Oct 29, 2007)

GlamourGirl said:


> I definitely would love to get one started. In fact on the link you gave me to Candice's site she has it set up so that women can join and create a group and begin to pray for each others mates. I have already joined and want to start a group.



I'll join Candice's because I've been reading her work for a while and really like where she's coming from... but also, would folks feel comfortable with a more informal prayer circle done on this board?

I know that we don't "know" each other in the flesh, but this forum seems to be an uplifting place and provides somewhat of a sister circle for many of us.

Plus, I figure I can't be in enough prayer circles, so I don't mind being a part of a few!


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## PaperClip (Oct 29, 2007)

Bunny77 said:


> I'll definitely join Candice's... and RR, would you feel comfortable with a more informal prayer circle done on this board?
> 
> I figure I can't be in enough prayer circles!


 
(Smile) I appreciate you asking! I don't know exactly just yet....


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## dreamer26 (Oct 29, 2007)

I've read through this thread and I am married and I just want to share my experience and maybe it will bless somebody.

I was married right out of high school to the wrong man and he was in church but he was not the one for me. So ladies just because he goes to church does not mean he's the one for you.  We stayed married 8 1/2 years and after my divorce, the most devastating time in my life, after that I was prepared for God's gift to me.

I prayed to God and told him how I didn't want to be single, I wanted to be a married woman. Well the 1st year after my divorce I enjoyed it because I had my freedom, then once that year was over I knew I wanted the family life, so  I fasted for 7 days because 7 is God perfect number.  I fasted  and prayed and I asked God at the end of this fast I need you to answer this question.  Do you have someone else for me? Yes, No or wait, were the answers I was prepared to hear.

See God knows your motivates and your hurt about a thing even before you ask, and I was prepared for whatever God was going to tell me.

At the end of the 7th day, I met my husband and a year later we got married and it is now 12 years later and we're still married.  We are such a great fit that people often asks us were we high school sweet hearts.

See ladies when you're ready for the mate, God will bring him, even if he has to come from the other side of the earth just for you.  There's so much more I could share with you but I'll leave you with these questions.

Some questions to ask yourself.

Can I be submissive?

Can I allow him to be the priest of the home

Am I willing to make my house a home.

Can I appreciate a Good man?

Do I know how to be a best friend?

Do I have unresolved personal issues

Am I complete without this man

and the #1 question is?

Will this man take God's place in my life.

See you are no longer looking for any man you're seeking God for his best.

There were other men in my life before my husband that I could have married but they were not from God and that's the KEY.

My 2 cents.


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## PaperClip (Oct 30, 2007)

dreamer26 said:


> I've read through this thread and I am married and I just want to share my experience and maybe it will bless somebody.
> 
> I was married right out of high school to the wrong man and he was in church but he was not the one for me. So ladies just because he goes to church does not mean he's the one for you. We stayed married 8 1/2 years and after my divorce, the most devastating time in my life, after that I was prepared for God's gift to me.
> 
> ...


 
Dreamer, I first would like to thank you for your sincere contribution as I believe you sincerely want to be of service and encouragement.

However, it is posts like this that begin to perpetuate the division between singles and marrieds in terms of identifying (subconsciously) the speculation of being inadequate, unprepared, and ill-equipped for this particular ministry (and yes, marriage is ministry)....

Some of us are still struggling between two worlds: the undeniable acknowledgement of godly, healthy, sexual desires and the seemingly lack of "legal" opportunity to fulfill these desires.

Dreamer, you have the wealth of experience of a marriage that didn't work out and you have the wealth of experience of a marriage that is blessed and you have the wealth of experience of that "in-between" time, which you wisely addressed by including your fasting and consecration experience. That was most edifying to me of your post....

If I'm wrong or have a jaded perspective, please forgive me. I'm just tired of the cliches. Of couse, nobody can know everything prior to going into marriage...but my goodness, can we at least have a benchmark of acknowledgement that on a broader scale, the state of singleness and relationships in the church/Body of Christ is at a critical place...where if something is not done, then there's going to be a mass exodus or a weakening.... 

Sigh.... I'm just really frustrated right now....


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## Bunny77 (Oct 30, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Dreamer, I first would like to thank you for your sincere contribution as I believe you sincerely want to be of service and encouragement.
> 
> However, it is posts like this that begin to perpetuate the division between singles and marrieds in terms of identifying (subconsciously) the speculation of being inadequate, unprepared, and ill-equipped for this particular ministry (and yes, marriage is ministry)....
> 
> ...



I did a lot of thinking about Dreamer's post, which is why I didn't address it immediately.  Like you, I agree that she meant it in a sincere way.

Here's the thing... I think that we do not make a distinction when we talk about people being "ready" for marriage and we lump everyone into the same category when they shouldn't be...

Let me give an example.

*Woman A has been in relationships from the time she was 16 to 26. She would have a boyfriend for 3 years, break up with him and then get with another boyfriend less than 3 months later and be with him for 2 years, etc., etc. 

When that woman broke up with the last guy, she decided that she needed to stop the cycle and said she wouldn't have another boyfriend until she was ready. 

This makes perfect sense, because she never really spent any time knowing how to love herself and be fulfilled on her own without a man by her side. And her need to have a man by any means necessary led her to jump from relationship to relationship, instead of spending some time by herself that would have truly helped her be "ready" for the right one to come along.*

Now, this woman would have benefitted from some talks about getting herself ready for marriage and embracing singleness, BUT, the message should be phrased in a way that recognizes that she SHOULDN'T be single forever, but just long enough to get herself together to make better decisions.

The problem is, we apply this logic to EVERY SINGLE WOMAN and make her feel that she has to be super-duper perfect and sanctified in order to be "ready" for marriage. And for a single woman in her late 30s, early 40s and older, that's the last thing she needs to hear...

Also, the right marriage helps both partners grow. So does having children. My parents got better at parenting and marriage the more they did it... but some churches seem to not get this by saying that you have to do all of this super-duper preparation BEFORE getting married and not recognizing that marriage is a union of two imperfect people who can inspire each other to be better people.

So to all single ladies, I say that you are "ready" enough for marriage if you know that you desire nothing more than to fill your God-given need for a husband. And I think that anyone who has proven that she's not so desperate that she just wants to be with "any" man is MORE than ready.

Edited to add: The only people I think are not "ready" for marriage are those who will just choose anybody just so they don't have to be alone. I know of one MAN who married someone he KNEW was not right for him because he said that he knew she'd never leave and he felt no other woman would want him. He was NOT ready. Nor was she. 

(And they're divorced now, btw).

That doesn't mean that these types of people will never be ready, they're just not ready at the time. That is a completely different issue from telling someone that they're single because they aren't sanctified enough, which is what RR and others among us have had beaten into our heads... and that's dead wrong!


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## Bunny77 (Oct 30, 2007)

dreamer26 said:


> Will this man take God's place in my life.
> 
> See you are no longer looking for any man you're seeking God for his best.




One more thing...

No, a man shouldn't take God's place in one's life, but God's role is also not to serve as a husband.

Maken and Watters both debunk the oft-repeated statement that "all we need is God," or "God is your husband" or any version of that. I know that's not what you were saying Dreamer26, but it can be interpreted that way.

Of course God should be No. 1 in our lives. No question. And of course we should want God's best... but I think we walk a dangerous line when we imply that wanting a husband somehow means that we're replacing God in our minds or that we're knocking God out of his rightful place in our lives.

We need God whether married or single. But I don't think anyone should question whether their desire for a spouse is somehow pushing God out of his rightful place. The two aren't related, IMO.


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## Bunny77 (Oct 30, 2007)

For anyone who's interested, here is the first chapter of Maken's book... when I read that, I felt like she was reading my mind.

"Getting Serious About Getting Married"

http://www.gnpcb.org/assets/products/excerpts/1581347413.1.pdf


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## PaperClip (Oct 30, 2007)

Bunny77 said:


> For anyone who's interested, here is the first chapter of Maken's book... when I read that, I felt like she was reading my mind.
> 
> "Getting Serious About Getting Married"
> 
> http://www.gnpcb.org/assets/products/excerpts/1581347413.1.pdf


 
I am reading this right, aren't I? (From Debbie's book):

"I asked the Lord to search my heart and reveal why I was balking against my singleness, against a state I had thought he wanted for me. What God showed me was that I had used most of my twenties to master avoidance, not true spiritual peace. Even more interesting was that he showed me that I was never going to get true spiritual peace about singleness because I wasn’t called to singleness, and the Spirit does not give peace about something that is outside of God’s calling."

My sentiments exactly....


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## dreamer26 (Oct 30, 2007)

Wow, I'm really disappointed in the way my post was taken.

Sorry for giving my 2 cents in an area that God has answered my prayer in.


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## PaperClip (Oct 30, 2007)

dreamer26 said:


> Sorry for giving my 2 cents in an area that God has answered my prayer in.


 
Ouch!!!erplexed

That hurt...it hurt me, at least.... it might have been funnier (but still as hurtful) if you had said "nah nah nah nah nah...I got mine!" 'cause that's what the above feels like....

(retreats to the cave of loneliness....)


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## dreamer26 (Oct 30, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Ouch!!!erplexed
> 
> That hurt...it hurt me, at least.... it might have been funnier (but still as hurtful) if you had said "nah nah nah nah nah...I got mine!" 'cause that's what the above feels like....
> 
> (retreats to the cave of loneliness....)


 
Maybe that should not have been the first post after being told my dad only have  a few more days to live. But that's not how I meant it,  I read post from woman that wants a husband.  I came in and give you testimony on what worked for me and what didn't work.  First hand information and I got the thank you but not thank you.

When ever I want something that I saw someone else achieve I've always asked the person that has what I want what did they do to get it, be it spiritual, natural, monitary or whatever. 

The only thing I wanted to point out is that if you have not received from God the thing you want from him you need to seek him to find out why.
And the shortness is never on God that's why I posted questions for  thought only,  not to say this is the be all to the process, or one is not perfect or need to be.


So please don't be offended, I promised I didn't mean it to be mean or offensive.


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## Bunny77 (Oct 30, 2007)

Okay, just because I don't want the thread thrown off track...

I think that anyone's 2 cents (or more) are welcomed and appreciated.

To Dreamer... speaking from the perspective of someone who's never been married and is looking for it to happen, it is difficult at times to hear a married person tell singles what they need to consider if they want to be married. I think many of us have simply been there, done that, bought the t-shirt, etc., so when yet another person comes to us with the same, it can get frustrating, even when the person means VERY well.

I was not bothered by your comment on how you had your prayer answered and I think it's a great story. I also think that there are many ways in which someone can find a husband, and sometimes, it's not about being and doing this, that or the other... 

I don't know how much you've been exposed to the church's teachings to people who have been single for a looooong time, but a lot of the frustration that's been exhibited on this thread comes from that point of view.

That's why I posted the links to both books, which don't say anything about things that singles need to think about/do/consider before they decide to pray for marriage. 

Anyway, hope that helps.  

Edited to add: Dreamer26, I'm very sorry about your father.


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## klb120475 (Oct 30, 2007)

I am single and Boo-less, so I'll be back tomorrow to add my input.


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## Bunny77 (Oct 30, 2007)

klb120475 said:


> I am single and Boo-less, so I'll be back tomorrow to add my input.



Hurry back now, ya hear?


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## Belle Du Jour (Oct 30, 2007)

Great thread.


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## PaperClip (Oct 30, 2007)

dreamer26 said:


> Maybe that should not have been the first post after being told my dad only have a few more days to live. But that's not how I meant it, I read post from woman that wants a husband. I came in and give you testimony on what worked for me and what didn't work. First hand information and I got the thank you but not thank you.
> 
> When ever I want something that I saw someone else achieve I've always asked the person that has what I want what did they do to get it, be it spiritual, natural, monitary or whatever.
> 
> ...


 
Dear Dreamer, you're already in my prayers concerning your dad. I'm a daddy's girl, too.... 

If I may share, singleness permeates one's entire life, even during such challenging times... and to go through such a thing by yourself versus having a loving, godly companion by your side, I imagine, I hope, I pray, helps ease the pain....

Bunny is serving as a wonderful balance in this thread. So much of what she's sharing is resonating with me. Of course I'm happy that the Lord answered your prayer and yet I'm expressing my honesty in the point that, what's going on with me? I don't want what you have... I want my own....

And so when you said that you went to people who did achieve success, my goodness, so have I.... And I agree with your point if that particular request has not manifested, I need to seek Him to find out why....

Yes, you're right about that...and I'm the "why" girl, too. I ask God questions ALL THE TIME, despite the fact that some churches teach that you're not supposed to question God, which goes back to what Bunny said about (some of) the church's sentiments on certain issues, e.g., singleness....

Sigh.... It's all pouring out now.... I hope the Lord is reading this thread 'cause even when I get on my knees to pray, I have no words...just tears....


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## Belle Du Jour (Oct 30, 2007)

I think this teaching of being content with singleness is part of the women that black women are so disproportionately single compared to white women.  Also, white women actively pursue marriage.  I don't think black women are raised with that goal in mind since many of us are trying to "handle our business" and be responsible.  I am always amazed at how white people seem to take settling down and getting married as the natural progression of adulthood.   I can say that my thinking has dramatically changed through various blogs, books (Calling in the One), etc. and I am actively pursuing getting married now.  These new links that the OP posted are very helpful.


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## Browndilocks (Oct 30, 2007)

I just read the first chapter of Maken's book.   

That's some powerful, eye opening stuff!  That just helped me right there... I am going to make a purchase for myself AND one of my best friends.


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## Bunny77 (Oct 30, 2007)

classimami713 said:


> I think this teaching of being content with singleness is part of the women that black women are so disproportionately single compared to white women.  Also, white women actively pursue marriage.  I don't think black women are raised with that goal in mind since many of us are trying to "handle our business" and be responsible.  I am always amazed at how white people seem to take settling down and getting married as the natural progression of adulthood.   I can say that my thinking has dramatically changed through various blogs, books (Calling in the One), etc. and I am actively pursuing getting married now.  These new links that the OP posted are very helpful.



Great point!

While I was never discouraged from being married by family/friends and while I saw evidence of strong black marriages growing up, marriage was always painted as something that would just "happen," not something I should really think about or pursue.

My parents (I love them, but...  ) would always get on me when I'd get upset about the latest dating relationship that went awry, telling me I was too focused/obsessed with having someone and just to let it go because it wasn't my time, I wasn't ready, God would eventually come through, blah blah blah.

After the last bad incident over the summer, I pointed out to my mother that while I have dated quite often over the last 10 years, I haven't had an official boyfriend in almost a decade. Just these little 3-month things here and there... and a little bit of me would seem to die inside after each one.

Suddenly, mom was like, "hmm, that has been a long time."

I sent her the excerpt from the Maken book and she was also blown away by it. It changed her whole point of view as well on my singleness and she and my dad are now fully committed to helping me in this area, rather than blowing off my concern as obsession. 

You know what else helped me change my thinking? All those darn interracial marriage blogs! Whether or not one wants to date interracially (and NO, I am not turning this into an IR thread, don't worry!), the blogs bring up great points about how black women should NOT feel that they must be single all their lives if they don't want that. The blogs encourage black women to start working toward marriage NOW and not waste time questioning their desires to have husbands and families. All this time wasted with "getting ready" and questioning God's will only delays the process. 

I also think that many churches simply have no answer to many black women about why so many of us aren't married, and that's why they focus on this "gift of singleness" doctrine and its various offshoots... which seems to keep us even more single than ever!

As for white/other women, someone pointed out on a different board that she was watching a documentary about the widows of 9/11 and noticed that many of those white women were already remarried!   The wife of the "Let's Roll" guy got remarried three years later, as did the wife of one of the other famous victims on that flight... they sure didn't waste time!

And yet, some of us can't even seem to get one man to marry us, let alone two!  

This is why things must change. As for me, all I know is that while I'm still single right now, I have never felt more optimistic about getting married than I do after reading Debbie Maken and Candice Watters.  All this talk about being fulfilled as a single only made me feel less likely that I would ever find anyone... but not any more!


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## Bunny77 (Oct 30, 2007)

One more thing on the Maken book...

There will be some parts that will make you scratch your head and go, uh, what? (if you read it, you'll know what I'm talking about!). Also, one of her suggestions is not very practical for those of us who are over, say, 23 years old.

She also can be a wee bit abrasive in some parts and let's just say that she and I have completely different political views! 

But... all that being said, I'd recommend the book to anyone who wants a completely different perspective on this whole being single/getting married issue. I figure that if I agree with 90+ percent of what she's saying, it's worth it.

And like Browndilocks and RelaxerRehab, when I read that first chapter online, I was just overcome... and it inspired me!


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## tylertown (Oct 30, 2007)

ccmuffingirl said:


> I remember reading in the Bible the Apostle Paul speaking of the gift of singleness. He said that it is a blessing because you have no distractions and you can be 100% devoted to God, whereas when you are married part of your devotion must go to your husband and any children that come along. He also said that if you absolutely cannot stay single, as in you may commit fornication because of your "needs", then go ahead and get married. Being single isn't worth committing a sin. There's benefits of being married and being single. I guess it's up to each individual to determine what's right for them. Great topic, BTW .


 
I like ur response and this is what I've been told also. I would love to read this book.


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## PaperClip (Oct 30, 2007)

Bunny77 said:


> Great point!
> 
> While I was never discouraged from being married by family/friends and while I saw evidence of strong black marriages growing up, marriage was always painted as something that would just "happen," not something I should really think about or pursue.
> 
> ...


 
That's good that you can talk to your mom. I feel like such a failure to even bring such things up to my mom. She's been married for 40 years to my dad. She has NO IDEA what it's like to be almost 40 and never married, and some of the other "never have done before's"..... When I have tried to bring it up, she asked me if I was jealous of her marriage.... so there ya go....


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## Glib Gurl (Oct 30, 2007)

Hello Ladies

This is an awesome conversation you've got going here.  I definitely plan to check out some of these resources (the Debbie Maken book, the Candice Waters website, etc.).  Thank you, Bunny, for pointing me towards this thread.  I don't think I have anything new to add to what's already been said.  Only that I feel like a "freak" in that I've never been involved in a committed relationship with a man . . . my universe is entirely female . . . other than doing it the "churchy way" (praying real hard, joining every social ministry I can - but that isn't even an option as my new church is very small and full of married folk ) or the "worldly way" (losing a bunch of weight, dressing flashy, possibly being promiscuous).  I am really anxious for companionship.  I hope that you all can help me learn another way . . . .


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## Bunny77 (Oct 31, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> That's good that you can talk to your mom. I feel like such a failure to even bring such things up to my mom. She's been married for 40 years to my dad. She has NO IDEA what it's like to be almost 40 and never married, and some of the other "never have done before's"..... When I have tried to bring it up, she asked me if I was jealous of her marriage.... so there ya go....



I am so sorry to hear that... old school parents can be like that sometimes. Every once in a while my mom will say something that totally lacks logic or common sense (and she's an educated woman) and I'm thinking, "How can you possibly say that????"

Well, I know that we can't replace your mom and dad, but we'll support you and everyone else here in our online group! 


Glib Gurl, welcome to the thread!  


Now... tips to get started...

-I liked Candice's idea about the prayer circle and she wrote another article in which she encouraged us to "pray boldly" for a spouse. She said this was how she used to pray...

*When I was single, I used to pray for a husband like this, “Oh God, please don’t make me be single my whole life. I really want to be married. Oh I hope it’s not your will for me to be single. I don’t think I could do it! Please bring someone into my life soon, very soon. But help me to be patient in the meantime. And God, if you do want me to be single — but I hope you don’t — please give me the grace for it because I really don’t feel it. Did I mention how much I hope that’s not your will for me?”*

She then changed to this...
*Lord you created me. And I believe you created me for marriage. I don’t know the timeline, but I’m asking you to fulfill my desire to be married. 

Then I thanked Him for what I believed He would do: 

Thank you Lord for this strong desire you’ve placed in my heart. Thank you that you’ve already been where I’m headed and that you know what my future holds. Thank you for marriage and for my future mate. Please be with him and prepare His heart to do your will.*

http://www.boundless.org/features/a0000992.html

-As for practical application, Debbie recommends enlisting agency. Tell anyone you can trust of your desire and see if they can arrange introductions or include you in events in which you might meet commitment-minded men. I found the most unusual agent in a white man at my job who introduced me to two of his employees who expressed interest in me. He is involved with ministry at his church, and I was able to talk to him about this issue. 

That's a start for now... and we can start with the personal prayer right now!


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## janiebaby (Oct 31, 2007)

Bunny77 said:


> -As for practical application, Debbie recommends enlisting agency. Tell anyone you can trust of your desire and see if they can arrange introductions or include you in events in which you might meet commitment-minded men. I found the most unusual agent in a white man at my job who introduced me to two of his employees who expressed interest in me. He is involved with ministry at his church, and I was able to talk to him about this issue.


 
Ok, I have to ask about the quote above....I was one of those people that didn't make it known that I was looking and I would read things that said that you should talk to friends, etc., and so on and that not talking to them was my pride getting in the way. 

For me, it turned out that I should not have spoken up. I have seen other people get introduced to people and I find that this is more often than not an effective way to meet people. However, I really wonder if they asked to be introduced. I have yet to be introduced to anyone worthwhile and when I did get introduced to people it was because my friend's boyfriend had a friend that didn't want to be left out while his friend was with his girlfriend. 

Is there a special way to enlist the help of friends? All my friends know for a fact that I am single and looking because I have made it known now.


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## Bunny77 (Oct 31, 2007)

janiebaby said:


> Ok, I have to ask about the quote above....I was one of those people that didn't make it known that I was looking and I would read things that said that you should talk to friends, etc., and so on and that not talking to them was my pride getting in the way.
> 
> For me, it turned out that I should not have spoken up. I have seen other people get introduced to people and I find that this is more often than not an effective way to meet people. However, I really wonder if they asked to be introduced. I have yet to be introduced to anyone worthwhile and when I did get introduced to people it was because my friend's boyfriend had a friend that didn't want to be left out while his friend was with his girlfriend.
> 
> Is there a special way to enlist the help of friends? All my friends know for a fact that I am single and looking because I have made it known now.



Yeah, I can see both sides of that... and you're right, getting the wrong introductions can be a problem.

I think Maken's idea of agency is using someone like a father, father figure, pastor or older person in general who is looking out for your best interests and can determine if a man is a good choice for you. 

Although folks know that I'm looking, I haven't told everybody. My parents and that one guy at my job are working as my agents at the moment.  I might ask a good friend of mine who is married... she and her husband are active in the church and I trust her judgment.

I know this is all easier said than done, of course, but I think the point is to pick people who will only introduce you to quality folks and not just someone who doesn't want to go to a party alone!  

Hope that helps!


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## motherx2esq (Oct 31, 2007)

This is such an great topic!  I'm single (with children) and while I will not go into my life, I am not content with being single.  Everyone always says "let him come to you" and "your time will come" but my word I am just tired of waiting.  But I refuse to take just anyone but meeting someone of quality is so hard.   But anyway, this is a great topic.  Bunny you are speaking volumes!


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## Belle Du Jour (Oct 31, 2007)

Bunny77 said:


> Great point!
> 
> While I was never discouraged from being married by family/friends and while I saw evidence of strong black marriages growing up, marriage was always painted as something that would just "happen," not something I should really think about or pursue.
> 
> ...




That is a shame.   We have GOT to get as serious about our love lives as everything else! I have to admit that the interracial blogs have made me start to re-evaluate my stance on my options and definitely Calling in the One has been very helpful.  I don't know if I'll get Maken's book, but I for sure am no longer going to feel guilty or bad for NOT wanting to be single.  Every time I would feel really sad, I'd feel guilty for feeling that way and then try to "man up."  God appreciates our realness, and I've been getting really "real" with God.


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## Bunny77 (Oct 31, 2007)

motherx2esq said:


> This is such an great topic!  I'm single (with children) and while I will not go into my life, I am not content with being single.  Everyone always says "let him come to you" and "your time will come" but my word I am just tired of waiting.  But I refuse to take just anyone but meeting someone of quality is so hard.   But anyway, this is a great topic.  Bunny you are speaking volumes!



Isn't it amazing what we've all been taught and how much pain it's caused us? And how many blessings we might have missed?

Like you, I'm not going to take just anyone. I'll be single forever before being yoked with the wrong person!

But one thing that I AM going to do from now on is date purposefully. I know these authors talk about that -- how women often settle for "friendships" or unfulfilled relationships with men who have no intention of committing to us... but we hold out hoping things will get better.

I dated a guy over the summer who flat out said he didn't want to get married and I was thinking, "Well that's okay, we can be friends. It's all good." But really, was it? NO! 

He got all of the benefits (not THOSE benefits, btw) of having female companionship when he felt like it, he could take me to dinner off and on and flirt and tell me all of these wonderful things, but all on HIS terms. I couldn't want more or else he'd back away, saying things were getting too serious... and all the while, people were telling me to stop being so impatient with this guy and focused on having a boyfriend because he could eventually become one!

Well, I think you can figure out the end of the story. Today, he's hardly around, and I had a tough time over the past few months trying to get over him.  Was that worth it? NO! Would I have been better off kicking him to the curb as soon as I learned his intentions? YES!

But, the Lord is good, because in my time of distress, I started researching writings on singleness and somehow stumbled upon Boundless.org, which then led to the discovery of Maken, The Gift of Singleness blog, etc., etc. 

So... I might have fewer dating opportunities in the future, but I'm going to make sure that if I choose to date someone, his intentions are serious. Don't get caught up in being someone's "buddy" -- even a non-sexual buddy... don't do it!


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## Bunny77 (Oct 31, 2007)

classimami713 said:


> That is a shame.   We have GOT to get as serious about our love lives as everything else! I have to admit that the interracial blogs have made me start to re-evaluate my stance on my options and definitely Calling in the One has been very helpful.  I don't know if I'll get Maken's book, but I for sure am no longer going to feel guilty or bad for NOT wanting to be single.  Every time I would feel really sad, I'd feel guilty for feeling that way and then try to "man up."  God appreciates our realness, and I've been getting really "real" with God.



 

Good for you!     I've been VERY real with God over these past two months... and I'm not going back!


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## PaperClip (Oct 31, 2007)

I received a telephone call tonight that has contributed to giving me perspective about this singleness thing.... It's just one seed so I'm still processing it but basically, God put me on somebody's heart with regard to the angst I have been going through on this topic....

I must admit that what has been impressed upon my heart (that I was trying to ignore) is to GET IN GOD'S FACE.... even like Debbie Maken's website says: praying boldly...not for the marriage, but to get in the presence of God....

I don't apologize for expressing my frustration here...but I thank God that the story doesn't end at my frustration....

As I'm writing this, I'm watching TBN online listening to CeeCee Michaela ministering... She's talking to us, y'all.... (her segment starts about 24 minutes into the program....

http://www.tbn.org/index.php/2/37.html
*Tuesday Oct 30, 2007
*Bishop John Francis hosts CeeCee Michaela, Pastor Maria Gardner, Dottie Rambo, Evangelist Susie C. Owens and Kim Burrell in Atlanta, GA.


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## Belle Du Jour (Oct 31, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> I received a telephone call tonight that has contributed to giving me perspective about this singleness thing.... It's just one seed so I'm still processing it but basically, God put me on somebody's heart with regard to the angst I have been going through on this topic....
> 
> I must admit that what has been impressed upon my heart (that I was trying to ignore) is to GET IN GOD'S FACE.... even like Debbie Maken's website says: praying boldly...not for the marriage, but to get in the presence of God....
> 
> ...



Thanks for that clip.  She was really speaking to me.


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## Browndilocks (Oct 31, 2007)

I'm still trying to gather my thoughts cause I have so much to say...


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## Bunny77 (Oct 31, 2007)

Browndilocks said:


> I'm still trying to gather my thoughts cause I have so much to say...



Hurry up! Hurry up!  

(I'm just messin' with ya... take your time!)


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## janiebaby (Oct 31, 2007)

Bunny77 said:


> Yeah, I can see both sides of that... and you're right, getting the wrong introductions can be a problem.
> 
> I think Maken's idea of agency is using someone like a father, father figure, pastor or older person in general who is looking out for your best interests and can determine if a man is a good choice for you.
> 
> ...


 
It does help tremendously. I need to develop relationships with people who will have my best interests at heart quick!


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## Browndilocks (Nov 1, 2007)

The thing is - I'm in a situation RIGHT NOW that I would have never thought I'd be in just a week ago.  I'm sitting here wishing I had that book already to reference this thing...


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## Bunny77 (Nov 1, 2007)

Browndilocks said:


> The thing is - I'm in a situation RIGHT NOW that I would have never thought I'd be in just a week ago.  I'm sitting here wishing I had that book already to reference this thing...



Amazing how quickly things change, isn't it?


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## brownsugarflyygirl (Nov 1, 2007)

This is an absolutely great thread!!!  I have been growing through this mental "shift" regarding singleness as well.  After I graduated from college, I decided to not date for a year and just to focus on my relationship with God....during those two years (it ended up being two instead of one)...I read every singleness book under the sun.  I think that what was supposed to be a break to focus on my relationship with God turned into a break to "prepare" myself to be married which was not the original intent at all.

However, I finally realized that all those ideas and legalistic concepts were hampering me rather than helping me.  I was overcome with tears during lunch with a friend of mine recently because I felt like I would never be "ready" or "spiritual" enough for God to send my husband and because I was "messing" up and had not "arrived" it wouldnt happen for me.  Which is when I realized that these books have a very "works" driven concept of God "sending" a husband...which is inconsistent with God giving us all things including salvation not based on our works but His grace.

So yea....Im sifting through all the singleness rhetoric and trying to keep what has merit and throwing the rest to the wind. I am sooo loving this thread.  My pastor actually has the "encourage people to date" mentality and for all this time, I thought he was kinda wrong 
but now Im seeing the wisdom in it...he takes the position that two adult people should spend as much time as they can stand without falling into sin....how else would anybody get into a position of marriage?  Im starting to have this attitude more now too.... not just dating frivolously...but when someone has an interest to actually explore it versus being so legalistic and courtshippy....like point a do this...point b go there...or no you dont meet criteria 100.9.a of rule 63 

So anyways...this thread is a blessing and I will definitely stay tuned....Im off to go read the first chapter.


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## PaperClip (Nov 1, 2007)

Kinda related:

I'm watching Oprah and Dr. Oz is on and the theme of the show is on staying young and this particular part that inspired me to post here has to do with how Dr. Oz said that sex can increase your longevity. He said specifically monogamous sex with a person you love (he referred to "semen" which indicates male/female sexual relations, to me)....

So again, keeping in line with the biblical principles of the sexual aspect of marriage and the physical benefits of marriage, WHY would the Lord cause us to have such desires and not a way to fulfill them and also DENY us of this benefit? Again, I'm not saying sex is the be all to end all, but the marriage bed is undefiled.... sex is good....


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## Bunny77 (Nov 2, 2007)

Brownsugarflyygirl, welcome!

I found this post on the Gift of Singleness blog today... I think it speaks directly to what you're talking about!

I love this person's British style of humor... dry wit, lots of sarcasm, but it speaks volumes!

*Thursday, November 01, 2007
Minutely examining the vacuum cleaner to solve the problem of why the washing machine won't work? 

Captain Sensible writes: That's the way I see the majority of advice given to single Christian women regarding singleness and marriage.

But no matter how much you examine the vacuum cleaner, take it apart, try to remove every speck of dust from the machinery until it is fully "prepared" to work, it will not do anything to solve the problem of why the washing machine still isn't going!

Christian women are being encouraged to minutely examine every detail of their hearts: Is there a speck of discontentment there? Have they inadvertently slipped over the invisible line of desiring married a fraction too much, thereby "making an idol" out of marriage? (Remember, the "gift of singleness" and the "gift of marriage" are both equal, and you should actually be equally content with both. Incidentally, I have always wondered why weddings don't have a section in the service for mourning the loss of the "gift of singleness"? Better still, have no marriage celebration at all. After all, the two equal gifts cancel each other out, so why the need for any celebration of thanksgiving at all? Surely it is a time of equal joy and sorrow?) Or have they made the very serious new error that has recently come to light of saying they want to "get married" instead of the preferred new terminology of "be a wife", which clearly reveals how very evil to the core their heart is!

Finally, when the vacuum cleaner is spotless (which is impossible anyway, because no vacuum cleaner can ever be perfectly clean. There's always going to be a speck of dust somewhere that some well-meaning idiot can point to as to the reason why the washing machine isn't working!), the only advice given is to trust in God about the washing machine and wait on the Lord for Him to fix it!*


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## Bunny77 (Nov 2, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> So again, keeping in line with the biblical principles of the sexual aspect of marriage and the physical benefits of marriage, WHY would the Lord cause us to have such desires and not a way to fulfill them and also DENY us of this benefit? Again, I'm not saying sex is the be all to end all, but the marriage bed is undefiled.... sex is good....




Great points!!!!!  God doesn't want us to suffer like that!


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## GlamourGirl (Nov 2, 2007)

You ladies have been giving some great input. I've got more to say I just don't have time to write it right now. I'll be back!


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## Bunny77 (Nov 2, 2007)

Whoa.... I found another good article! Written by a black male minister!

http://www.gillistriplett.com/rel101/articles/will.html


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## PaperClip (Nov 2, 2007)

Bunny77 said:


> Whoa.... I found another good article! Written by a black male minister!
> 
> http://www.gillistriplett.com/rel101/articles/will.html


 
This makes me want to run!!!!! Whewwwwwwww!!! My God, my Lord....

Thank You, Jesus that I'm not crazy....

Bunny, you are off the proverbial chain with this topic/thread.... 


<FONT color=darkred><B><SPAN style="COLOR: navy">Let God Be Your Husband or Your Wife?


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## Belle Du Jour (Nov 2, 2007)

Great article Bunny.  Thank you so much for this thread.  It was right on time.


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## GlamourGirl (Nov 2, 2007)

Bunny77 said:


> Whoa.... I found another good article! Written by a black male minister!
> 
> http://www.gillistriplett.com/rel101/articles/will.html





That was great Bunny. I found another article by Debbie Maken. 

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/130/story_13029_2.html

Wow, this information is just eye opening! Just perfect timing.


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## SEMO (Nov 4, 2007)

I'm so glad you started this thread Bunny!  This is a timely message for me too.  I was one of the people who was taught about the "gift of singleness" and right after I heard it I told God "I hope that's not your gift for me."  Soon though I started to think that maybe I did have the gift and it would just be me and Jesus for the rest of my life .  The funny thing is a day or two after I accepted my gift and was content my pastor (without knowing what I had decided) prophesied that I was getting married.

I was happy to hear that.  But the next problem I fell into was feeling like I had to go through this long preparation process.  I did have some things God needed to work on in me and He's been doing that these last few years.  But eventually I started to worry about when I would reach that stage where I was perfectly ready for marriage.  I started to worry that I might meet the man I was supposed to marry but that I wouldn't be finished getting ready so I'd miss him.

I am ready to get married and through this disscussion and the articles I've read in the links I'm not ashamed to admit this. Thanks ladies for posting all the links.  I'm off to read that chapter of Debbie's book that was posted.  But I'll be keeping up with this thread .


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## Browndilocks (Nov 6, 2007)

SEMO said:


> But the next problem I fell into was feeling like I had to go through this long preparation process.  I did have some things God needed to work on in me and He's been doing that these last few years.  But eventually I started to worry about when I would reach that stage where I was perfectly ready for marriage.  I started to worry that I might meet the man I was supposed to marry but that I wouldn't be finished getting ready so I'd miss him.



What's fascinating to me is how quickly things can be turned around. God can put [you] in a situation with the sole purpose of just reminding you that there's no need to play a waiting game, or waste time trying to figure out how to play it. Even if certain datinig situations that you may encounter do not come to full fruition, I know for a FACT that God can move faster than anybody's logical timeline.  I think it benefits us to just walk in confidence and be ourselves.


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## envybeauty (Nov 6, 2007)

brownsugarflyygirl said:


> This is an absolutely great thread!!! I have been growing through this mental "shift" regarding singleness as well. After I graduated from college, I decided to not date for a year and just to focus on my relationship with God....during those two years (it ended up being two instead of one)...I read every singleness book under the sun. I think that what was supposed to be a break to focus on my relationship with God turned into a break to "prepare" myself to be married which was not the original intent at all.
> 
> However, I finally realized that all those ideas and legalistic concepts were hampering me rather than helping me. I was overcome with tears during lunch with a friend of mine recently because I felt like I would never be "ready" or "spiritual" enough for God to send my husband and because I was "messing" up and had not "arrived" it wouldnt happen for me. Which is when I realized that these books have a very "works" driven concept of God "sending" a husband...which is inconsistent with God giving us all things including salvation not based on our works but His grace.
> 
> ...


\

I agree with this. I think two people should date to find out if they are compatible and marriage partners.  I mean why would I want to start a family and generations ahead of me with a person I have only known for a few months.


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## PaperClip (Nov 6, 2007)

nvybeauty said:


> \
> 
> I agree with this. I think two people should date to find out if they are compatible and marriage partners. I mean why would I want to start a family and generations ahead of me with a person I have only known for a few months.


 
That would be contingent on one's definition of date....

Date/dating is a very weird, in limbo type situation, esp. for the Christian single....  Dating leaves too much room for ambiguity....

I'm all for PURPOSEFUL DATING (I just made that term up so its definition has not been explored yet).... What I'm saying is this: exactly how many dates do the dude and I have to go on to know if we're in the same ballpark? 3? 12? 20? Nope.... That's too much time and attention going to something that has not been purposeful.... 

Maybe if a person is younger and not marriage minded, that's one thing, and even then, that's dangerous to date A LOT of people because when your feelings get involved and if it would end, from what I have been told, the break-up is similar to those of a divorce (but of course, not on the same level)....

I'm not saying that every man or every date has to lead to marriage. What I am saying is that it helps to be purposeful....


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## envybeauty (Nov 6, 2007)

Even when one is so called purposeful, nothing happens without God's doing. I have a friend who has been into purposeful dating for well over two years. She analyzes everything. The best way to meet men. The best people to introduce her to good men. The best way to communicate with men. The best way to approach dating, etc. Her dating style is not lax in any shape or form. Yet, no boyfriend or husband to talk about to date. All the while other women are meeting men on the street, dating, and moving forward with wedding dates, etc. Not to say those types of encounters will ultimately last forever but at least they are moving forward to that undefiled marriage bed, having a family, etc. She remains single and worried about her ability to conceive in her mid-thirties. 

She is doing EVERYTHING she can to *purposefully* date. Yet nothing. Dating cannot be contained (for lack of a better word) no matter the approach or the definition.






RelaxerRehab said:


> That would be contingent on one's definition of date....
> 
> Date/dating is a very weird, in limbo type situation, esp. for the Christian single.... Dating leaves too much room for ambiguity....
> 
> ...


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## Browndilocks (Nov 6, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> That would be contingent on one's definition of date....
> 
> Date/dating is a very weird, in limbo type situation, esp. for the Christian single....  Dating leaves too much room for ambiguity....
> 
> ...



I halfway agree with what you're saying RR .  I do believe that when we're really honest with ourselves, we know when we reach the threshold of catching feelings, or at least when we're on the verge of approaching it.

But if you don't date and allow yourself _ some _ increment of time to collect data then how are you supposed to know if you're in the same ballpark?


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## Browndilocks (Nov 6, 2007)

nvybeauty said:


> Even when one is so called purposeful, nothing happens without God's doing. I have a friend who has been into purposeful dating for well over two years. *She analyzes everything.* The best way to meet men. The best people to introduce her to good men. The best way to communicate with men. The best way to approach dating, etc. Her dating style is not lax in any shape or form. Yet, no boyfriend or husband to talk about to date. All the while other women are meeting men on the street, dating, and moving forward with wedding dates, etc. Not to say those types of encounters will ultimately last forever but at least they are moving forward to that undefiled marriage bed, having a family, etc. She remains single and worried about her ability to conceive in her mid-thirties.
> 
> She is doing EVERYTHING she can to *purposefully* date. Yet nothing. Dating cannot be contained (for lack of a better word) no matter the approach or the definition.




Maybe she needs to stop thinking so hard.


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## envybeauty (Nov 6, 2007)

Browndilocks said:


> Maybe she needs to stop thinking so hard.


 

I agree. But try telling that to her..........


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## PaperClip (Nov 6, 2007)

I meant purposeful dating in terms of not getting the dates, but as two people, God-fearing Christians become acquainted with one another over a period of time: hours, days, weeks, months, etc. 

Are they just "hanging out" or are they purposeful (and UP FRONT) about their reasons and objectives for "dating"? So at some (relatively) early point in interacting, do they determine if their "dating" goals are compatible? 

And my goodness, I know this isn't easy. When women are up front like this, they can come off as desperate. And usually it's just the women who are up front like this.

The men seem to have the LUXURY of not defining their actions.... (uh oh,) I may have said to much.... the ONE dude from church who I could have been interested in did this very thing. It was classic passive-aggression....


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## envybeauty (Nov 6, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> I meant purposeful dating in terms of not getting the dates, but as two people, God-fearing Christians become acquainted with one another over a period of time: hours, days, weeks, months, etc.
> 
> Are they just "hanging out" or are they purposeful (and UP FRONT) about their reasons and objectives for "dating"? So at some (relatively) early point in interacting, do they determine if their "dating" goals are compatible?
> 
> ...


 

That "luxury" is usually one or more of the following: time on their side, females at their beck and call, and numbers in their favor (more good available men than women), etc.

Unfortunately.


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## PaperClip (Nov 6, 2007)

Browndilocks said:


> I halfway agree with what you're saying RR . I do believe that when we're really honest with ourselves, we know when we reach the threshold of catching feelings, or at least when we're on the verge of approaching it.
> 
> *But if you don't date and allow yourself some increment of time to collect data then how are you supposed to know if you're in the same ballpark?*


 
Yes, of course people have to get together to get to know one another! Absolutely! But here's the thing: the church has adopted the world's definition of this process called "dating". Show me ONE EXAMPLE from the Bible that would REMOTELY be considered dating. I'll throw one out there: 

Esther and the king.... Let's explore this:

According to some estimates, in his search for a virgin bride, the King of Persia(?) had up to FOUR THOUSAND virgins to consider. Each girl had ONE NIGHT (can we call that ONE DATE?).... And after that ONE DATE, it was either  or , yes?

And sure, if you're checking out FOUR THOUSAND women, you can't take that much time, but the point is that the king was purposeful. It was VERY CLEAR what the king was looking for...and the women had time and opportunity to prepare themselves. Maybe he picked a woman before Esther, but for whatever reason, maybe that woman chose to walk away and also because Esther was the LORD'S CHOICE?....

I think what I'm saying is that it doesn't take that long to know if you "click" with a person enough to see if there's more to explore between one another... and as both persons agree on that, that's a good sign that you're in the same ballpark, yes?

For fun, maybe some of us (maybe for another thread) can toss out some timelines to get a sense of how long it takes to know if there's potentiality to pursue something further: a month? 2 months? 3 months? 6 months? a year?


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## Browndilocks (Nov 6, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Are they just "hanging out" or are they purposeful (and UP FRONT) about their reasons and objectives for "dating"? So at some (relatively) early point in interacting, do they determine if their "dating" goals are compatible?



I think so.  I can't speak for everyone but for me; if I'm interested in a guy, there's always a little period of "shyness" or reservation that goes into play before I actually feel comfortable enough to really seek other information.  Honestly, I'd be embarassed to say to a guy that I just met "my reasons and objectives for dating are such and such"  as soon as the waitress walks away with the menus on our first date.  Ya know?  I'd at least wait to see which direction the vibes between us go in order to know how to approach the subject. I think there's a period (a rather short period) where you have to feel a person out and actually spend time around them before a real conversation even takes place.


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## Browndilocks (Nov 6, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Yes, of course people have to get together to get to know one another! Absolutely! But here's the thing: the church has adopted the world's definition of this process called "dating". Show me ONE EXAMPLE from the Bible that would REMOTELY be considered dating. I'll throw one out there:
> 
> Esther and the king.... Let's explore this:
> 
> ...



U R a smart lady.


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## PaperClip (Nov 6, 2007)

Browndilocks said:


> I think so. I can't speak for everyone but for me; if I'm interested in a guy, there's always a little period of "shyness" or reservation that goes into play before I actually feel comfortable enough to really seek other information. *Honestly, I'd be embarassed to say to a guy that I just met "my reasons and objectives for dating are such and such" as soon as the waitress walks away with the menus on our first date.* Ya know? I'd at least wait to see which direction the vibes between us go in order to know how to approach the subject. I think there's a period (a rather short period) where you have to feel a person out and actually spend time around them before a real conversation even takes place.


 
Now you KNOW I ain't talking about it going down like that.... 

Plus, INFORMATION can be exchanged in SEVERAL WAYS: talk on the telephone, text message (if you got unlimited texting), emails, etc. Hopefully there's some other communication going beyond face-to-face interactions....


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## Browndilocks (Nov 6, 2007)

Come on now.  Gimmie some credit!


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## PaperClip (Nov 6, 2007)

Browndilocks said:


> U R a smart lady.


 
All the glory belongs to the Lord.


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## SEMO (Nov 6, 2007)

I came across this book today that made a lot of sense (it's really closer to a booklet but worth the read). It's called "The Art of the Chase." And one thing it says is that women should be mysterious. Men like to chase women and a mysterious woman is intriguing to them. I agree .


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## janiebaby (Nov 6, 2007)

SEMO said:


> I came across this book today that made a lot of sense (it's really closer to a booklet but worth the read). It's called "The Art of the Chase." And one thing it says is that women should be mysterious. Men like to chase women and a mysterious woman is intriguing to them. I agree .


 
I completely agree with this statement. I also think that women should be purposeful without letting our potential mates know. I also don't believe in wasting time hoping to mold a man into a husband or hoping to change a man's mind when he says that he isn't ready for a relationship. 

I think that being purposeful is about being honest with yourself and having realistic expectations. This doesn't necessarily mean you have to let someone else know verbally what your intentions are let him "see" for himself that you're a hot commodity and that you should be snatched up before you're off the market.


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## Bunny77 (Nov 6, 2007)

^^^Janie, you said it all!

Hey everyone! 

So much good conversation going on... sorry I haven't been back in a few days -- everyone at my job decided to act absolutely bananas over the last five days and I've been overworked! They have all lost their minds! 

Anyway, I think there's a way to date purposefully without seeming "desperate." I practiced it this weekend when I went out with a guy who expressed some interest, but I kinda knew I wasn't interested in him.

He asked me during our dinner what my future goals were. Now, in the past, I would just say, "I'd like to be working at XYZ Corporation as a managing XYZ in the city of ABC," and leave it at that... thinking that if I brought up marriage and family, I'd be scaring a man away.

This time, I said all of the above and added, "And then personally, I would like to be married and have children."

I didn't say when I planned for this to happen, but I also didn't say, "Oh it would be nice to be married...," (like I used to do). I made it clear that was part of my plan, but not in a way to make it seem like I was "auditioning" him to be Mr. Bunny77.

His answer was simply, "Okay, that's cool."  

Now, I'm not interested in him that way, but if I was, it would be interesting to see how he responded after that in terms of our continued dating. If he backs off or just talks about "friendship," then I know not to waste my time dating him. If he seems to be moving forward, then he might be worth the time because he knows how I feel and he might appear to feel the same way.

Most men I know do seem to ask or try to find out ways to see where your mind is about the future and they do it pretty early in the process. So there are ways to definitely find out what you need to know about a man... and if he's not down, then move on quickly and don't waste time trying to hope he'll change his mind!


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## SEMO (Nov 6, 2007)

janiebaby said:


> I completely agree with this statement. I also think that women should be purposeful without letting our potential mates know. I also don't believe in wasting time hoping to mold a man into a husband or hoping to change a man's mind when he says that he isn't ready for a relationship.
> 
> I think that being purposeful is about being honest with yourself and having realistic expectations. *This doesn't necessarily mean you have to let someone else know verbally what your intentions are let him "see" for himself that you're a hot commodity and that you should be snatched up before you're off the market*.


 
Very true.  My brother is a good catch and his wife snapped him up while they were in college.  I was talking to him yesterday about my wanting to get married and asked him what it was about his wife that drew him in.

He said that you have to leave a man wanting more (not just talking about not having sex).  He said that when a man wants to get to know you there is nothing that he won't do.  His wife made him want to chase/pursue her.  This is the kind of man I want.


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## Bunny77 (Nov 6, 2007)

SEMO said:


> Very true.  My brother is a good catch and his wife snapped him up while they were in college.  I was talking to him yesterday about my wanting to get married and asked him what it was about his wife that drew him in.
> 
> He said that you have to leave a man wanting more (not just talking about not having sex).  He said that when a man wants to get to know you there is nothing that he won't do.  His wife made him want to chase/pursue her.  This is the kind of man I want.



Hi SEMO!  

I have been hearing this more and more (what your brother is saying). I'm totally going to follow that...

Also, regarding an earlier post, I'm glad that you received that prophecy that you were to be married! I think a lot of us reach a point of "numbness" in which we think that we're content in our singleness, but SOMETHING always happens to remind us that we're not (friend getting married/having a baby/just getting lonely/etc.)

I thought I was content earlier this year until a situation this summer told me I was NOT and never would be! Now that I've embraced that and realized there was nothing wrong with me for feeling that way, I'm doing a lot better... which inspired me to start this thread!


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## SEMO (Nov 7, 2007)

Thanks for the welcome. I am enjoying this dialogue. Yeah my brother had a lot of good things to say. He also said that if a man is serious about you he will be willing to make his intentions known.

I also talked to my sister-in-law to hear about how they got together from her perspective. She said to let a man show me who he is without puting all my expecations out on the table. She said to be patient while he shows me what kind of man he is, and that if he's serious he'll stay around long enough to let me see how he really is before I make up my mind about things.

As far as the prophecy, I really think that God told me specifically He wanted me to get married b/c otherwise I would get "locked" into believing I was supposed to be single and push away any potential husbands.



Bunny77 said:


> Hi SEMO!
> 
> I have been hearing this more and more (what your brother is saying). I'm totally going to follow that...
> 
> ...


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## Browndilocks (Nov 7, 2007)

Now that the Soulmates topic has resurfaced on the board again, I'm going to go home tonight and watch that movie again.  Going to see if I can view it with a different perspective now.


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## Bunny77 (Nov 7, 2007)

Browndilocks said:


> Now that the Soulmates topic has resurfaced on the board again, I'm going to go home tonight and watch that movie again.  Going to see if I can view it with a different perspective now.



I never saw it... was scared it would make me depressed. I'd be interested in hearing your perspective!

And I'll PM you back...


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## Browndilocks (Nov 7, 2007)

I'll burn you a copy but it'll take me a few weeks because... you know.


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## Bunny77 (Nov 7, 2007)

Take ALLLLLL the time you need!


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## motherx2esq (Nov 8, 2007)

Bunny77 said:


> ^^^Janie, you said it all!
> 
> Hey everyone!
> 
> ...


 
Woman you speak to my soul.  This is so me!


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## janiebaby (Nov 12, 2007)

This is a good thread...


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## Southernbella. (Nov 12, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> That would be contingent on one's definition of date....
> 
> Date/dating is a very weird, in limbo type situation, esp. for the Christian single.... Dating leaves too much room for ambiguity....
> 
> ...


 
This thread is so awesome! I hope yall don't mind me posting in here. I just wanted to say ITA with this post.


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## Southernbella. (Nov 12, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> I meant purposeful dating in terms of not getting the dates, but as two people, God-fearing Christians become acquainted with one another over a period of time: hours, days, weeks, months, etc.
> 
> Are they just "hanging out" or are they purposeful (and UP FRONT) about their reasons and objectives for "dating"? So at some (relatively) early point in interacting, do they determine if their "dating" goals are compatible?
> 
> ...


 
Gah! I went through this. A male friend I had was so passive-aggressive, he brought a date to our group outing just to see if I would get jealous.

I never specifically told anyone I was looking to get married, but I made it very clear to my friends that I wasn't interested in dating unless it was to prepare for marriage. This got relayed to my husband by my best friend (someone mentioned agents? ITA with that!).


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## Bunny77 (Nov 17, 2007)

Time for a good ole bump!


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## Sunshine_One (Nov 17, 2007)

WOW!  This entire thread has been such a blessing to my SOUL!

PRAISE THE LORD!

I agree with SO much of what has been said.  For years I thought it was just me I'm so glad to find out I am not the only one that has been going thru this process.  A lot of these man-made doctrines have done such a disservice to  Christian singles.


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## motherx2esq (Nov 18, 2007)

Sunshine_One said:


> WOW! This entire thread has been such a blessing to my SOUL!
> 
> PRAISE THE LORD!
> 
> I agree with SO much of what has been said. For years I thought it was just me I'm so glad to find out I am not the only one that has been going thru this process. A lot of these man-made doctrines have done such a disservice to Christian singles.


 
I felt the same way when I found this thread.


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## PaperClip (Nov 18, 2007)

So I wanted to document this for myself and hopefully it will be a blessing to others....

So I went to church today after being away for 3 weeks.... After service I had the opportunity to speak with both my Bishop and Pastor (husband and wife team). I spoke to them separately and they both said the same thing in terms of me being found by my mate....

I actually went to talk to my Bishop about something else and we ended up talking about school and he then he said that his desire for me was for a mate (and I broke down y'all!) and I was saying to him that I went to a school conference where I believe the Lord used that occasion to remind me that HE (God) can (and has) created for me a man who I can be attracted to (mind, body, and spirit).... 

And then shortly thereafter I was talking to my pastor (the bishop's wife) and I asked her some point-blank questions: I asked her that if she thought it was strange that there are SO MANY single, black, educated women around? And she said yes. And I asked her is that how it is supposed to be? And she said NO!! And she said that it is the MEN who are INTIMIDATED by these women (she was more likely talking about our church in particular, but as we can see from this thread, this phenomenon is more widespread than just my church). I told her that the women don't hear what she just said. She asked if I saw the Soulmate DVD and I said yes but I made sure I said that such things aren't talked about in-depth over the pulpit....I told her that the single (educated) women hear that they (we) are inadequate, ill-equipped, and domineering.

She said again that it's the men who are intimidated and who don't step to these women. That many of them want a "dumb" woman so they can feel superior, in control, etc. But there are men (regardless of their vocation, educated or otherwise) who can handle an educated woman. At our church in particular, our Bishop has stated a new men's Bible study and the men are coming out in droves. My pastor even said that I should come through when the girls' mentoring program is going on at the same time (Wink!).... She also said that it is good that I got to go to the school conference and that there is some good outcomes coming out of that encounter....

So I just wanted to share that.... It's a blessing to hear that my spiritual parents are desiring and praying and agreeing with me concerning my mate DIRECTLY....


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## Bunny77 (Nov 18, 2007)

^^^ I'm so happy for you RR! And I'm glad that your pastors are in agreement with you and will pray for your soul's desire!


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## ALWAYZL8 (Nov 18, 2007)

Browndilocks said:


> I think so. I can't speak for everyone but for me; if I'm interested in a guy, there's always a little period of "shyness" or reservation that goes into play before I actually feel comfortable enough to really seek other information. Honestly, I'd be embarassed to say to a guy that I just met "my reasons and objectives for dating are such and such" as soon as the waitress walks away with the menus on our first date. Ya know? I'd at least wait to see which direction the vibes between us go in order to know how to approach the subject. I think there's a period (a rather short period) where you have to feel a person out and actually spend time around them before a real conversation even takes place.


 

I have this same issue.  In my last dating situation, after four face-to-face encounters, the topic never came up.  I never had a chance to find out what he wanted and he never asked what I wanted.  Apparently he knew I wasn't it because he didn't call back.  I didn't feel quite comfortable bringing up this convo.

Also, what happens when a guy tells you on the second date that he is interested in getting to know you for marriage?  I know it is late at night and I may seem a bit off, but I have been hoodwinked so many times that I can't tell the difference between the jokers and the real ones.  I have just convinced myself that they are all running game.  I'm working on that.


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## Southernbella. (Nov 19, 2007)

ALWAYZL8 said:


> I have this same issue. In my last dating situation, after four face-to-face encounters, the topic never came up. I never had a chance to find out what he wanted and he never asked what I wanted. Apparently he knew I wasn't it because he didn't call back. I didn't feel quite comfortable bringing up this convo.
> 
> *Also, what happens when a guy tells you on the second date that he is interested in getting to know you for marriage? I know it is late at night and I may seem a bit off, but I have been hoodwinked so many times that I can't tell the difference between the jokers and the real ones. I have just convinced myself that they are all running game. I'm working on that.*


 
Keep it platonic! If he really desires to get to know you, he will do it on your terms. He doesn't have to be alone with you to get to know you. Let him hang out with you and your friends. Go out in groups. Minimize the time you spend alone, especially at night, because this can lead to temptation.

My dh and I got to know each other in group settings first, then he asked if we could talk one-on-one over the phone, so we did that (I was adamant about not dating and being romantic). 

If a man is truly serious, he will understand why you want to do things this way and won't make an issue of it. If he insists on being romantic and tries to pressure you to break your convictions, then that's a red flag.

This happened to me with a man I met right before my dh. He kept trying to pressure me to date. I thought he might be husband material at first, but after seeing how he didn't respect my wishes, I knew he wasn't the one.


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## Bunny77 (Nov 19, 2007)

^^^Lauren, thanks for your tips!

I think it's important for we single ladies to hear from the married ladies about the right way to approach dating/courtship if we are looking for husbands (not just dates).


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## Southernbella. (Nov 19, 2007)

Bunny77 said:


> ^^^Lauren, thanks for your tips!
> 
> I think it's important for we single ladies to hear from the married ladies about the right way to approach dating/courtship if we are looking for husbands (not just dates).


 
No problem! This is a subject I love because I went through a lot and have lots to share.I was pretty rigid back then because of my own experiences, so I didn't date AT ALL, but I don't think that's necessary for everyone. But dating with a purpose is always good.


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## ALWAYZL8 (Nov 19, 2007)

Lauren450, 
Thanks for the advice.  Something just doesn't feel right about my situation.  I think I'll keep my distance.


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## SEMO (Nov 19, 2007)

Thanks for your input. I just recently met a guy from a church I just joined who I think is husband material, and I'm trying not to rush things in my mind. I want to see how things play out for a minute. I don't want to get ahead of things and become disappointed if they don't play out how I thought they would.

Like Bunny said, it's nice to get a married woman's perspective on all this . I actually have a question too , how long did you know your dh before you knew he was "the one?"



lauren450 said:


> Keep it platonic! If he really desires to get to know you, he will do it on your terms. He doesn't have to be alone with you to get to know you. Let him hang out with you and your friends. Go out in groups. Minimize the time you spend alone, especially at night, because this can lead to temptation.
> 
> My dh and I got to know each other in group settings first, then he asked if we could talk one-on-one over the phone, so we did that (I was adamant about not dating and being romantic).
> 
> ...


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## Southernbella. (Nov 20, 2007)

SEMO said:


> Thanks for your input. I just recently met a guy from a church I just joined who I think is husband material, and I'm trying not to rush things in my mind. I want to see how things play out for a minute. I don't want to get ahead of things and become disappointed if they don't play out how I thought they would.
> 
> Like Bunny said, it's nice to get a married woman's perspective on all this . I actually have a question too , how long did you know your dh before you knew he was "the one?"


 
I knew him for about 6 months before I knew he was the one. We had been hanging out in groups, and through interactions and conversations, I started to see that he was the type of man I'd want to be with. It wasn't immediate...I didn't think he was my type at first. One of his friends told me he was interested in me, and I said absolutely not.But God knew what He was doing.

Then, once we started talking to each other on the phone, I was positive he was the one. I waited for him to say something though. All in all, we were platonic for about a year, then he came out and told me he knew I  was his wife, he had prayed about it, and he wanted to know if we could start on the road to marriage.


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## MindTwister (Nov 20, 2007)

lauren450 said:


> I knew him for about 6 months before I knew he was the one. We had been hanging out in groups, and through interactions and conversations, I started to see that he was the type of man I'd want to be with. It wasn't immediate...I didn't think he was my type at first. One of his friends told me he was interested in me, and I said absolutely not.But God knew what He was doing.
> 
> Then, once we started talking to each other on the phone, I was positive he was the one. I waited for him to say something though. All in all, we were platonic for about a year, then he came out and told me he knew I was his wife, he had prayed about it, and he wanted to know if we could start on the road to marriage.


And how long did it take from that to actually getting married?  (hope i'm not too nosy either lool)


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## PaperClip (Nov 20, 2007)

lauren450 said:


> I knew him for about 6 months before I knew he was the one. We had been hanging out in groups, and through interactions and conversations, I started to see that he was the type of man I'd want to be with. It wasn't immediate...I didn't think he was my type at first. One of his friends told me he was interested in me, and I said absolutely not.But God knew what He was doing.
> 
> Then, once we started talking to each other on the phone, I was positive he was the one. I waited for him to say something though. All *in all, we were platonic for about a year*, then he came out and told me he knew I was his wife, he had prayed about it, and he wanted to know if we could start on the road to marriage.


 
What did you do in the meantime, during that year? How did you live? Were you working? Going to school? What was your age during that year? Were you all actively dating/exclusive or was it more casual?

Yeah, I've gots lots of questions!


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## Southernbella. (Nov 20, 2007)

MindTwister said:


> And how long did it take from that to actually getting married?  (hope i'm not too nosy either lool)


 
From when we started dating to engagement was 6 months. From there to marriage was about 8 months. And no, not too nosy at all!


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## Southernbella. (Nov 20, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> What did you do in the meantime, during that year? How did you live? Were you working? Going to school? What was your age during that year? Were you all actively dating/exclusive or was it more casual?
> 
> Yeah, I've gots lots of questions!


 
Hee hee, I think I know where you're going with this! 

I was 22, in school, working full time, and living with my sister.

We weren't dating at all. We hung out in groups in the beginning (his group of friends and my group of friends). We hung out a few times a month, had barbecues, went to dinner/movies, etc. All of us were single, so we would have lots of conversations about marriage and dating and whatnot. I guess it was like our own informal singles ministry in a way.

So for the first six months, it was just the group thing. Then, he asked me if he could call me on the phone, and I said yes, so we started talking on the phone. I only called him if he called me...I never initiated. I don't recommend that for everyone, but that was something I felt strongly about at the time, and something that my dh needed at the time, so it worked for us. We got REALLY close through these conversations. We were like best friends and told each other everything. 

In short, it was agony. It felt like waiting for something that you know is yours, but all you can do is look at it because it's not time yet and if you jumped the gun, it could potentially ruin things. 

Finally, one night he invited me to his aunt's dinner party. Afterwards, he invited me back to his house to watch the all-star game with his roommate and some others. I hate basketball, but I went anyway. 

That was the night. He was walking me to my car and just came out with it. He said he had been praying and that I was his wife and he was in love with me. He said he waited because he wanted to make sure it was God, and it was. He told me to think about it and pray about it and give him my answer when I was ready. I told him I didn't have to think about it because I was in love with him too and had been for awhile now. I told him yes, and that's when we started dating. 

Was age a factor? Probably so. Although I did spend a lot of time alone before this. I'm not sure how things would have gone if we had been older, or if I was actively dating the whole time, or if I had had my own place. 

But we both knew pretty early on that this was it. It wasn't real deep or anything...he had the qualities I was looking for (and had asked God for), and vice-versa. The hard part was the waiting game. But from start to finish, first meeting to marriage, it all took a little over 2 years, which doesn't seem that long when I look back on it.

Ok, sorry for rambling!


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## PaperClip (Nov 20, 2007)

lauren450 said:


> Hee hee, I think I know where you're going with this!
> 
> I was 22, in school, working full time, and living with my sister.
> 
> ...


 
Where do you think I'm going with this, miss missy? (Smile!)

Seriously, 22 was what I thought was the "ideal" age.... For me, at that age, I was in my senior year of college and so it would have been "ideal" for me to graduate in December and get married the summer of the next year.... To the church world, to go to college was nice, but it had better not interfere with getting married within the "ideal" age range....

Also, the group dating approach in the beginning takes the pressure off so that would have been ideal for me as well.... I suppose your experience would have been my "ideal"....

So for me now, double-digit years later I'm looking around now...looking at myself, looking at society, looking at church, looking at God like, well, I had an idea of what my "ideal" was supposed to look like...and so now I have to change it but I don't know what this "new" ideal is supposed to look like and it doesn't align with what the church has taught (and keeps teaching) the women....the church seems to ignore the changes in society and culture.... and the imbalance of marriageable Black men in the church today....  Sigh....

Not rambling at all! It's a beautiful story!


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## Bunny77 (Nov 20, 2007)

It's interesting RR, because I always saw myself being married "older" -- older meaning minimum of 26. Then when I got to about 25, I moved that age up to 32.  (Watch me get hitched at 32...  )

But I've had to realize that if that's the plan, I need to stop being passive! Because I don't want 32 to turn into 35 into 40 into 45, etc., etc...

On a different note, my workplace had a book fair and I found a book written by a Jewish woman who has a matchmaking service. It was just a dollar, so I bought it.

Now, she writes from a secular perspective, but I found this passage very timely.

*"I assume you're reading this book because you want to fall in love and get married. How great is that? That's a wonderful, honorable goal. I think marriage is one of the greatest things on earth. Having someone to love, cry with, talk to, share life and grow old with: That's sexy. That's wonderful. That's hip and cool and stylish. Don't let anyone tell you it's not. 

Some people scoff at those actively searching for a loving mate. I don't, not only because it's my business to help find people their soul mates, but also because I believe love and marriage are sacred. So don't, for a single second, feel embarassed about making a conscious decision to look for a marriageable mate."*

WOW... again, I find it amazing... here's a secular, non-practicing woman esteeming the virtues of marriage and affirming that it's a great desire to have! Christian churches need to get on the ball and start taking this standpoint, NOT this "gift of singleness," "you need to be ready," "marriage is hard, so it's best to be single," doctrine!  

Edited to add: And I hate to again get racial with all of this, but on one of the IR blogs, I found it interesting that the writer said that black women are the only group of women told that they have to jump through 700000 hoops to become "marriageable" and "ready." Isn't there something wrong with this?


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## PaperClip (Nov 20, 2007)

Bunny77 said:


> It's interesting RR, because I always saw myself being married "older" -- older meaning minimum of 26. Then when I got to about 25, I moved that age up to 32. (Watch me get hitched at 32... )
> 
> But I've had to realize that if that's the plan, I need to stop being passive! Because I don't want 32 to turn into 35 into 40 into 45, etc., etc...
> 
> ...


 
Bunny! Hey, yes, that was the "ideal" I thought was supposed to be, but honestly, I wasn't planning on getting married until I was 30. I was gonna graduate from college, get a job in journalism in a different city, and me and my boyfriend were gonna either be in the same city or different cities and you know, we be friends and lovers and colleagues and after our careers got going nicely, we'd go ahead and tie the knot....

Well, 29 startled the heck out of me because the boyfriend didn't last beyond college and there weren't any viable prospects at that time.... And I think since age 29, I have been in this low-level funk of disappointment that has manifested through stress, lack of enthusiasm, significant weight gain, and at times, not even caring how I looked because my "ideal" and my picture of how things were going to turn out did a complete 180....

...will continue in another post....


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## SEMO (Nov 20, 2007)

Thanks Lauren450 for sharing your story. I like how he was the one to pursue you and how you got to observe him in group situations.  Right now that's how it is with the guy I'm interested in.  I'm just worried that I won't know how to play it cool and will try to artificially rush things.

I believe that the man should put in most of the work in the early stages of the relationship (i.e. doing the most calling).  But I was talking to my sister-in-law and brother and they were telling me I should ask him out, and what if some other woman gets to him before me .  But I've been praying and I truly believe that a man will cherish you more if he had to work for you, and if he's the one for me I don't think that God will let some other woman swoop in and "steal" him.

Another question for you Lauren450  (thanks for being so patient with all the questions) how did your relationship work after you started dating/purposefully pusuing marrige with him?  Did you go to premarital counseling or set up dates where you met and were evaluated by each other's family?  I'm just curious as to how that went.


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## SEMO (Nov 20, 2007)

Also, Buuny77 I agree with you about all the hoop jumping they ask women to go through being ridiculous.


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## PaperClip (Nov 20, 2007)

Continued from previous post (Post #126):

So you all saw the post where I mentioned the dual conversations with my church pastors.... and as I have been meditatating on those conversations, what I believe was impressed upon my heart is that this (EXTENDED?) season of singleness is not my fault(?).... and that their words brought comfort to me... Like when my pastor said that the men are intimidated... which is a different message than "RR, YOU ARE INTIMIDATING", which could mean a range of things but it still puts the (negative) responsibility on me and it makes it seem like I'm this aggressive pit bull just beating up on the men when I know I'm not doing that.... Of course, I can learn to be more graceful, and to be more...how can I say, discreet, if you will.... But even if I were to do all that, an INTIMIDATED man would still be intimidated.... So what more or less could I do?

And that there are SO MANY single (Black & educated) women who are so distressed and so not at peace because they believe (and we have been told implicitly and explicitly) that the reason(s) we are not married is because of deficiency in them/us....  And in some instances, we may have contributed to the situation on an individual level, but in the big picture, there are some systemic, societal issues that are DIRECTLY IMPACTING and DISTURBING...dare I say DESTROYING the formation of healthy, GODLY, marital relationships.... 

I'll keep this conversation on the natural side of things because we already know the enemy HATES marriage, esp. the marriages that work because two are better than one and one can put a thousand to flight but TWO can put TEN thousand to flight (*Deuteronomy 32:30*)....

I used a question next to the word "EXTENDED" because I believe that the Lord is sovereign, He knows best, He has a divine plan for me (Jeremiah 29:11). So maybe I am flowing right in His plan with regard to the perfect timing for me to be married. Of the men I have encountered in my adult life, I don't feel like any of them were "THE ONE". Sure, I could have tried to put something together but then that doesn't seem to be the best condition under which to be married.... I don't know if one of them could have been "THE ONE" and I messed it up? I don't know exactly.

What I do know is that I believe the Lord ordained marriage for me. I know this through personal words as well as prophetic words spoken to me by MAJOR prophets. I know this because I have (healthy) sexual desires that I deal with and try to handle in a holy way and the Bible says it is better to marry than to burn. I know this because He has placed examples of good marriages around me, including my parents being married 40 years and my church pastors. I know this because I have become MUCH MORE VOCAL about wanting to be married and as Bunny has talked about "agency", I am RECRUITING AGENTS RIGHT NOW!!!! Recruiting them in prayer as well as scouting out! I know this because I cannot accept that the Lord would have me walk around on this planet getting more miserable every day. And sometimes the misery gets so overwhelming that I just want to end it so I can stop feeling the pain. That's how deep it is for me right now.


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## Bunny77 (Nov 20, 2007)

SEMO said:


> Thanks Lauren450 for sharing your story. I like how he was the one to pursue you and how you got to observe him in group situations.  Right now that's how it is with the guy I'm interested in.  I'm just worried that I won't know how to play it cool and will try to artificially rush things.
> 
> *I believe that the man should put in most of the work in the early stages of the relationship (i.e. doing the most calling).  But I was talking to my sister-in-law and brother and they were telling me I should ask him out, and what if some other woman gets to him before me .  But I've been praying and I truly believe that a man will cherish you more if he had to work for you, and if he's the one for me I don't think that God will let some other woman swoop in and "steal" him.*
> 
> Another question for you Lauren450  (thanks for being so patient with all the questions) how did your relationship work after you started dating/purposefully pusuing marrige with him?  Did you go to premarital counseling or set up dates where you met and were evaluated by each other's family?  I'm just curious as to how that went.



I agree with you and your point of view, but I've had family members who've said I need to do some asking out.

My mom will say that to me sometimes and I look at her like, erplexed.  So I ask if she approached my dad or if he approacher her. Then she's quiet. I also ask if she ever had to ask a man out, and she had a very active dating life.

She said that she didn't remember... but I know the answer is no.  Then she said, "Well, it's a different time now and blah blah blah..."

My answer... "Well, obviously it's not working, or else 70% of black women wouldn't be single."

I also talk to my married friends in my age group -- many of whom are black women -- and ALL of them have said that their husbands made the first move and did the work to prove they were worthy. They won my friends over... and these men were in their mid-20s, so I don't want to hear that men are "shy" or don't know what to do and need to be asked out. No other woman is going to "snatch up" someone who isn't supposed to be snatched up... I truly believe this fear comes from all the hype we hear about the man shortage (which I also think is overblown, but that's another thread.)

The farthest I will go is giving a man my business card if we meet at a social event and tell him to give me a call sometime. If he doesn't, oh well, I'm not doing any more than that. And I still do this VERY rarely... it has to be an extreme circumstance for me to take this action.

Anyway, I'm rambling... keep going Lauren with your story!  

P.S. SEMO, ask your brother and sister-in-law who approached whom the next time they bring that up... I bet your brother approached and pursued your sister-in-law, right?


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## PaperClip (Nov 20, 2007)

Ok... I know I've been posting a lot.... Sorry.... 

Bunny, you mentioned the book by the Jewish matchmaker. Well, I often visit this site (www.aish.com). It is a Jewish website and I browse the dating section and came across this article:

http://www.aish.com/dating/wisdom/Season_of_Isolation.asp
*Season of Isolation 
*by Freidl Liba bas Chava 
*Being single shouldn't mean being lonely at the holiest time of year* 

I'll post a couple of paragraphs but you can read the article in its entirety at the link above....

"The anxiety dreams came earlier than I expected. 

I knew they were coming, and I tried to brace myself, to be ready to fight off creeping depression, triggered, ironically, by a time of year that should be a period of joy, of growth, of connection to the sweetest of the sweet: The High Holiday season. 

The holidays are supposed to be about renewal of one's relationship with the ineffable and, less sublimely, about being with your family and the people you love. But after 11 years of the holidays as a single adult, I dread Tishrei's approach with increasing intensity each year. 

And her words will echo in my ears as I sit in the shul where I don't fit... and I will once again pour my heart out to my Creator and beg him to let me give all that I believe I have to give. Every phase of life has its difficulties: Please, switch mine. So many single women have to fight bitterness and despair, the loneliness and sadness that is soft background music to our days, even when our lives are otherwise blessed

Let this be the year that my friend's friend doesn't unhelpfully inform me of the lack of good guys but rather goes home and makes a list. She'll make some phone calls. She'll find at least five good guys to set up with at least a few of the oceans of good girls she claims to know (and let this be the year that she realizes that telling those girls that there aren't any guys out there really isn't constructive).

Let this be the year that more rabbis and communal leaders stop screaming _gevalt_ over the increasing numbers of unmarried older people and start doing something about it.


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## Bunny77 (Nov 20, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Like when my pastor said that the men are intimidated... which is a different message than "RR, YOU ARE INTIMIDATING", which could mean a range of things but it still puts the (negative) responsibility on me and it makes it seem like I'm this aggressive pit bull just beating up on the men when I know I'm not doing that.... Of course, I can learn to be more graceful, and to be more...how can I say, discreet, if you will.... But even if I were to do all that, an INTIMIDATED man would still be intimidated.... So what more or less could I do?



I've been told the same thing, and the problem is, I work in a very male dominated industry (sports), so I often have greater knowledge of football and basketball than many men! The thing is, I don't go around bragging about this and I'm a very feminine, "girly girl" type... I wear a lot of pink and am interested in hair care (surprise, surprise.  ) and fashion and makeup, etc... but still, men who barely know me will make the intimidating judgment on superficial information. I honestly think that outside of a general self-evaluation, there's nothing more that we can do... EXCEPT for maybe focusing on a specific pool of men who wouldn't be intimidated... men who have it going on and are confident in themselves, etc. Yeah, easier said than done, but I noticed how much more interest I get when I go to events where every man is an engineer for Ford or GM or something. 



> And that there are SO MANY single (Black & educated) women who are so distressed and so not at peace because they believe (and we have been told implicitly and explicitly) that the reason(s) we are not married is because of deficiency in them/us....  And in some instances, we may have contributed to the situation on an individual level, but in the big picture, there are some systemic, societal issues that are DIRECTLY IMPACTING and DISTURBING...dare I say DESTROYING the formation of healthy, GODLY, marital relationships....


Yep, this is bigger than BW alone... there is a major crisis with men not stepping up to the plate to become husbands and leaders...



> So maybe I am flowing right in His plan with regard to the perfect timing for me to be married. Of the men I have encountered in my adult life, I don't feel like any of them were "THE ONE". Sure, I could have tried to put something together but then that doesn't seem to be the best condition under which to be married.... I don't know if one of them could have been "THE ONE" and I messed it up? I don't know exactly.



I think the same way. I really haven't met anyone who would be "THE ONE" yet... and also, in my early 20s, I perhaps dated in ways that pushed me farther away from marriage (looking for Mr. Right Now instead of Mr. Right), and perhaps kept me away from the types of men that God would have wanted for me. In that case, I might not have been "ready" (ha ha). 



> And sometimes the misery gets so overwhelming that I just want to end it so I can stop feeling the pain. That's how deep it is for me right now.



Hang on... we're praying for you!


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## SEMO (Nov 20, 2007)

You're right.  My sister-in-law was really the one saying I should ask the guy out.  When I talked to my brother, in an earlier conversation, he was the one who pursued her and tried to figure out how to be around her (ex. he would visit her in her dorm room saying that he was just stopping by on his way to visit his best friend, who also lived there, but it later came out that he was just using that as an excuse to see her and he wouldn't even stop by his friend's room after they'd talked ).



Bunny77 said:


> I agree with you and your point of view, but I've had family members who've said I need to do some asking out.
> 
> My mom will say that to me sometimes and I look at her like, erplexed. So I ask if she approached my dad or if he approacher her. Then she's quiet. I also ask if she ever had to ask a man out, and she had a very active dating life.
> 
> ...


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## Sojournertruth (Nov 23, 2007)

I personally don't believe in this so called "gift of singleness".  I think it is being promoted in black churches because of the lack of available single black Christian men.   I can tell you they are not promoting this in predominately white churches.


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## Bunny77 (Nov 24, 2007)

Sojournertruth said:


> I personally don't believe in this so called "gift of singleness".  I think it is being promoted in black churches because of the lack of available single black Christian men.   I can tell you they are not promoting this in predominately white churches.



Welcome! You bring up a very good point...  I totally think there's a racial aspect to this, although some of the white/other women who've written about this say that they were exposed to this type of teaching in their churches.  (Maken, Watters, etc.)

HOWEVER... I seem to meet so many black people PERIOD, whether they're in the church or not, who seem to accept this "gift of singleness" idea as the truth and nothing but the truth! And you do have to think it's because of the lack of promotion of marriage in our culture these days, and the lack of single black Christian men in our churches... yeah, it's sad, no doubt.


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## Bunny77 (Nov 24, 2007)

SEMO said:


> You're right.  My sister-in-law was really the one saying I should ask the guy out.  When I talked to my brother, in an earlier conversation, he was the one who pursued her and tried to figure out how to be around her (ex. he would visit her in her dorm room saying that he was just stopping by on his way to visit his best friend, who also lived there, but it later came out that he was just using that as an excuse to see her and he wouldn't even stop by his friend's room after they'd talked ).



I knew it!  BTW, your brother sounds sweet. That's so cute how he pursued your SIL.

I wonder why women who are married/involved give single women advice that advises the complete opposite of what they did to be married...


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## browneyedgirl (Nov 24, 2007)

Thank you so much for this thread.  I was beginning to feel like I am all alone.  Reading the posts has brought tears to my eyes.  I do not accept this so called gift of singleness and this new year I am actively going to work towards changing it.  You ladies have really helped me.  Just being able to vent and get a couple of Amen's really helps.  I haven't had  a date in four years ( ok, one blind date).  I am so frustrated.  I am relocating to Los Angeles by sept of next year.  This move is primarily for me to start life over.  In order for me to date and do things of interest. I have to have someone I trust to watch my 4 year old son.  In Cali I have my sisters and great big city to explore.  I can't find a mate sitting at home every weekend.  Boy, this is just what I needed.


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## motherx2esq (Nov 24, 2007)

browneyedgirl said:


> Thank you so much for this thread.  I was beginning to feel like I am all alone.  Reading the posts has brought tears to my eyes.  I do not accept this so called gift of singleness and this new year I am actively going to work towards changing it.  You ladies have really helped me.  Just being able to vent and get a couple of Amen's really helps.  I haven't had  a date in four years ( ok, one blind date).  I am so frustrated.  I am relocating to Los Angeles by sept of next year.  This move is primarily for me to start life over.  In order for me to date and do things of interest. I have to have someone I trust to watch my 4 year old son.  In Cali I have my sisters and great big city to explore.  I can't find a mate sitting at home every weekend.  Boy, this is just what I needed.



Amen to this and I wish you so many blessings in your big move.  Your situation sounds like mine.  I have not really had a date either since breaking up with my ex.  I am too moving to another state soon to be closer to my parents (for my daughters sake) and also explore what it has to offer because Michigan is not poppin'. lol  But God bless you and your son on your move!


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## Southernbella. (Nov 25, 2007)

Where do you think I'm going with this, miss missy? (Smile!)  I knew it was an issue with the age, and I agree. I think there are a lot of things I was able to do at my age that a more mature woman probably wouldn't need or wouldn't want to do. 

Seriously, 22 was what I thought was the "ideal" age.... For me, at that age, I was in my senior year of college and so it would have been "ideal" for me to graduate in December and get married the summer of the next year.... To the church world, to go to college was nice, but it had better not interfere with getting married within the "ideal" age range....

Also, the group dating approach in the beginning takes the pressure off so that would have been ideal for me as well.... I suppose your experience would have been my "ideal"....

So for me now, double-digit years later I'm looking around now...looking at myself, looking at society, looking at church, looking at God like, well, I had an idea of what my "ideal" was supposed to look like...and so now I have to change it but I don't know what this "new" ideal is supposed to look like and it doesn't align with what the church has taught (and keeps teaching) the women....the church seems to ignore the changes in society and culture.... and the imbalance of marriageable Black men in the church today.... Sigh....

Not rambling at all! It's a beautiful story! Thank you, and I feel you. It seems bleak. All I can tell you is that your husband will be your ideal, and you will not have to compromise your standards one bit. I'm no prophetess or anything, so take this with a grain of salt , but I wouldn't be surprised if your husband came out of nowhere. Have you prepared yourself for the possibility that he may be a member of a different church than yours? From a different state? 

I also think that singleness is a gift for those under, say, 24. At that age, you have work or school or travel or life or whatever without the responsibility of marriage and kids, and you're probably not even thinking about it. After that age, I think people begin to date seriously and think of the future. Society and the church have no business teaching grown folks with grown-up needs that being single is a gift.


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## Southernbella. (Nov 25, 2007)

Bunny77 said:


> I knew it! BTW, your brother sounds sweet. That's so cute how he pursued your SIL.
> 
> *I wonder why women who are married/involved give single women advice that advises the complete opposite of what they did to be married*...


 

In my experience, it's guilt. I always felt funny about being the first of my friends to be married. I would listen to stories about the dating scene, and I would always play down my relationship. I found myself telling a girlfriend to go after a guy, even though I would have never done that myself, and I think it was because I wanted her to have someone. I don't do this anymore.


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## Southernbella. (Nov 25, 2007)

SEMO said:


> Another question for you Lauren450  (thanks for being so patient with all the questions) how did your relationship work after you started dating/purposefully pusuing marrige with him? Did you go to premarital counseling or set up dates where you met and were evaluated by each other's family? I'm just curious as to how that went.


 
We did dinner and a movie and talked a lot about our expectations. Honestly, as well as my dh handled the courtship and "proposal", he sucked at the relationship at first.I had to...we had to groom each other a bit. There were a lot of kinks to be worked out. For example, I was still in "independent woman" mode. He had to become more sensitive. I had to start cooking. He had to learn to listen to my incessant debating (I've toned it down since). I think it was more meaningful dealing with this kind of relationship stuff when you know you are in it for the long haul because you have every reason to be invested and to learn and change for the other person. 

We did meet and spend time with each other's families, and that was fun. My mom loved him, and his mom loved me. We went to church together, and once we got officially engaged, we started pre-marital counseling.


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## Bunny77 (Nov 25, 2007)

lauren450 said:


> I also think that singleness is a gift for those under, say, 24. At that age, you have work or school or travel or life or whatever without the responsibility of marriage and kids, and you're probably not even thinking about it. After that age, I think people begin to date seriously and think of the future. Society and the church have no business teaching grown folks with grown-up needs that being single is a gift.



I'm with you on this. 24 and under and single? Great. I know that from 18-24 I had no business thinking about marriage. Now I know some other women are ready between 22-24 and that's fine too... but if you are single between those times, then by all means, enjoy your "free" life -- travel, study, work on your career, etc.

But also agree... there comes a time when many of us rightfully want to move into that next phase. For me it came when I moved from Florida and got a better job back in Michigan... taking that step made me feel that I was maturing mentally and wanted to start considering the next phase of my life, which included getting married and having children.

It's 2 1/2 years later, and I dare anyone to tell me to enjoy my single life and that it's a gift. I mean, what more am I supposed to be doing that I haven't done over the last 10 years being single? Seriously!


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## Bunny77 (Nov 25, 2007)

lauren450 said:


> In my experience, it's guilt. I always felt funny about being the first of my friends to be married. I would listen to stories about the dating scene, and I would always play down my relationship. I found myself telling a girlfriend to go after a guy, even though I would have never done that myself, and I think it was because I wanted her to have someone. I don't do this anymore.



Thanks for that explanation. I never thought of it that way, but it makes sense. 

Once again, your contributions to this thread are very much appreciated!


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## browneyedgirl (Nov 25, 2007)

motherx2esq said:


> Amen to this and I wish you so many blessings in your big move.  Your situation sounds like mine.  I have not really had a date either since breaking up with my ex.  I am too moving to another state soon to be closer to my parents (for my daughters sake) and also explore what it has to offer because Michigan is not poppin'. lol  But God bless you and your son on your move!



Aww, thanks!  I usually lurk around here but I've come to feel more comfortable about talking about what I'm going through.  The ladies on this board are so encouraging and it's nice to know that I am not alone in my thoughts and situations.  I wish you blessings too on your move.  What state are you moving to?


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## Bunny77 (Nov 25, 2007)

browneyedgirl said:


> Aww, thanks!  I usually lurk around here but I've come to feel more comfortable about talking about what I'm going through.  The ladies on this board are so encouraging and it's nice to know that I am not alone in my thoughts and situations.  I wish you blessings too on your move.  What state are you moving to?



Hey, I missed your earlier post! Welcome!

And Mother2... where are you going? You leaving us in Michigan already?


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## janiebaby (Nov 26, 2007)

Bunny77 said:


> I'm with you on this. 24 and under and single? Great. I know that from 18-24 I had no business thinking about marriage. Now I know some other women are ready between 22-24 and that's fine too... but if you are single between those times, then by all means, enjoy your "free" life -- travel, study, work on your career, etc.
> 
> But also agree... there comes a time when many of us rightfully want to move into that next phase. For me it came when I moved from Florida and got a better job back in Michigan... taking that step made me feel that I was maturing mentally and wanted to start considering the next phase of my life, which included getting married and having children.
> 
> It's 2 1/2 years later, and I dare anyone to tell me to enjoy my single life and that it's a gift. I mean, what more am I supposed to be doing that I haven't done over the last 10 years being single? Seriously!


 

Hey Bunny! Happy belated birthday:birthday2

I hear what you're saying but at this point in my life and looking around me, I wouldn't encourage anyone to be single at any age. I can't wait to have children so I can encourage them to get married one day. I have been around so many mothers of sons who encourage them to play the field and not get involved with anyone


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## motherx2esq (Nov 26, 2007)

browneyedgirl said:


> Aww, thanks! I usually lurk around here but I've come to feel more comfortable about talking about what I'm going through. The ladies on this board are so encouraging and it's nice to know that I am not alone in my thoughts and situations. I wish you blessings too on your move. What state are you moving to?


 
You are so welcome.  And I am happy that you feel comfortable enough to talk and share.  I'm moving to Tennessee and I've prayed about this move for years.  And thank you so much!


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## motherx2esq (Nov 26, 2007)

Bunny77 said:


> Hey, I missed your earlier post! Welcome!
> 
> And Mother2... where are you going? *You leaving us in Michigan already?*


 
Already! lol  I've been in Michigan 26 of my 29 years. lol  I even stayed here to go to college.  I gotta get out of here.   Just time for a change.


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## motherx2esq (Nov 26, 2007)

janiebaby said:


> Hey Bunny! Happy belated birthday:birthday2
> 
> I hear what you're saying but at this point in my life and looking around me, I wouldn't encourage anyone to be single at any age. I can't wait to have children so I can encourage them to get married one day. I have been around *so many mothers of sons who encourage them to play the field and not get involved with anyone*


 
See that is just so sad.


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## janiebaby (Nov 26, 2007)

motherx2esq said:


> See that is just so sad.


 
I guess parents really do it on both sides. I understand that they wouldn't want their child to be wrapped up in someone else but, in my opinion, they go about encouraging them in the wrong way. Hope this makes sense...


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## Bunny77 (Nov 26, 2007)

Woo hoo... Candice brings it again! Apparently, this is an excerpt from her new book...

http://www.boundless.org/2005/answers/a0001622.cfm

Better Together  

by Candice Watters  


DEAR BOUNDLESS ANSWERS

In a recent Boundless Answers, you said you should only be in a relationship if you determine that you can "better serve the kingdom" together than apart. I have a question about what that means.

It seems that, in every case, single people can surely serve the kingdom better, since marriage usually takes away time, energy, emotions, money and other resources from a person that are given to his spouse, instead of to churches or ministries. He can, for example, spend more time Bible reading, instead of spending time with his wife. What do you mean that people can better serve the kingdom together?

REPLY

They can, but do they?

While singles have the potential to devote more time, energy, emotions and money to the kingdom, singleness is not inherently kingdom-oriented. There is no guarantee that never marrying will translate into the fully expended celibate service Paul talks about.

When I was single I had lots of discretionary time, even with a demanding job. I could have devoted hours to charity work. But I didn't. Instead I spent it at a tiny table at Borders sipping iced hazelnut lattes, reading books and writing in my journal. I'm not saying it's a sin to do that, but it wasn't the stuff of "undistracted devotion."

I wasn't even doing as much to serve the kingdom as my married friends were. Sadly, that's not unusual. While 29 percent of married people told Barna Research that they had volunteered to help a church in the past seven days, only 14 percent of never married people had. The time today's singles have available for spiritual service is the same time the leisure and entertainment industry demands from them.

In our culture, it's more likely that for every weary mother, daily sacrificing her own time, energy, and resources for her husband and children, there are singles that are virtually indistinguishable from their unbelieving friends.

After telling the Corinthians that someone who is unmarried can have "undistracted devotion to the Lord," he clarified in a letter to Timothy that unmarried women are vulnerable to "idleness." He warned that young widows pledging themselves to celibate service may later find themselves wanting to break that pledge because of their sensual desires:


At the same time they also learn to be idle, as they go around from house to house, and not merely idle, but also gossips and busybodies, talking about things not proper to mention. Therefore, I want younger widows to get married, bear children, keep house, and give the enemy no occasion for reproach. (1 Timothy 5:13-14 NASB)

Paul explained to the Corinthians that a married woman is concerned with how to take care of her husband (a statement of fact, not a criticism). But he didn't stop there. His letter to Timothy showed he also believed that the responsibilities of marriage are honorable and an antidote to idleness. This is consistent with the Proverbs 31 description of a wife of noble character who "watches over the affairs of her household and does not eat the bread of idleness" (Proverbs 31:27).

Surveying the overarching themes of Paul's writings, it's clear that he believed an unmarried woman has the potential to serve the kingdom in a greater way, but if she is not gifted to overcome her vulnerability to sexual temptation and idleness, it is better for her to marry and serve God in marriage.

It's true the kingdom ushered in by Jesus brought new esteem and opportunities for celibate service, but not a spiritual fig leaf for any and all single lifestyles. When Paul said he wished others could be like him, he didn't just mean his marital status. He meant his undistracted devotion to God.

What did that look like? In his second letter to the Corinthians he gave us a glimpse:


We put no stumbling block in anyone's path, so that our ministry will not be discredited. Rather, as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: in great endurance; in troubles, hardships and distresses; in beatings, imprisonments and riots; in hard work, sleepless nights and hunger; in purity, understanding, patience and kindness; in the Holy Spirit and in sincere love; in truthful speech and in the power of God; with weapons of righteousness in the right hand and in the left; through glory and dishonor, bad report and good report; genuine, yet regarded as impostors; known, yet regarded as unknown; dying, and yet we live on; beaten, and yet not killed; sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything. (2 Corinthians 6:3-10)

This is the high calling that accompanies kingdom-benefiting celibate service. Interestingly it's the same high calling that patriarchs like Moses, prophets like Isaiah, apostles like Peter, missionaries like Jim Elliott, evangelists like Billy Graham and scores of other people have followed over the years while also taking on the responsibility of marriage and children. Both the call to celibate service and the call to marriage are of high value in God's eyes when they are submitted to His purposes.

Marriage is not a compromise. It is not a spiritually inferior path. Most believers are called to marry, and for them finding a spouse with whom they can serve God is a high call — their call. For them, to remain single would be a loss to the kingdom. When I raised the "better together" test, I wasn't suggesting a choice between "stay single or get married," but "marry this man or marry another."

Sincerely,
CANDICE WATTERS


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## Bunny77 (Nov 26, 2007)

janiebaby said:


> Hey Bunny! Happy belated birthday:birthday2
> 
> I hear what you're saying but at this point in my life and looking around me, I wouldn't encourage anyone to be single at any age. I can't wait to have children so I can encourage them to get married one day. I have been around so many mothers of sons who encourage them to play the field and not get involved with anyone



Thanks for the birthday wishes!  

And hey, I know where you're coming from. I don't discourage folks who want to get married just because of age.  I knew a few couples who married a few weeks after college graduation and a lot of my peers questioned that. I thought, hey, they've been together 3-4 years, why not?

That's sad to hear about some of these mothers today and what they're teaching their sons.    What is we gon' do????


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## Bunny77 (Nov 26, 2007)

motherx2esq said:


> Already! lol  I've been in Michigan 26 of my 29 years. lol  I even stayed here to go to college.  I gotta get out of here.   Just time for a change.



See, I thought you had just moved here or something!  

That's cool though that you're going to try something else. I loved the time I spent in Florida and I'm glad I did it. When do you plan to move to Tennessee?


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## janiebaby (Nov 26, 2007)

Wow, Mrs. Watters was definitely on point! I wish my pastor would get with the program. He is starting to minister more to married couples and righfully so but he should also include creating opportunites for singles to meet and get married instead of just telling single folks to marry. Alot of being single isn't even about keeping a man it's about being found in the first place.


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## Bunny77 (Nov 26, 2007)

janiebaby said:


> Wow, Mrs. Watters was definitely on point! I wish my pastor would get with the program. He is starting to minister more to married couples and righfully so but he should also include creating opportunites for singles to meet and get married instead of just telling single folks to marry. *Alot of being single isn't even about keeping a man it's about being found in the first place. *



I KNOW!!! This is indeed the issue!

And also... these days, you can put X number of men in a room (or singles ministry)and Y number of women, but it doesn't mean they will all end up together! Men these days almost have to be told to "find" women for marriage, even if they're in plain sight. 

Someone wrote that there seems to be a missing piece in churches today. We jump from "If you're single, here's how to prepare yourself for marriage," to "Okay, so you're married, here's how to hold your marriage together."  Nothing about helping the single people meet and then stressing the importance of mariage between them!!!


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## Bunny77 (Nov 26, 2007)

Okay, I think I'm going to have to start donating to Boundless.org, because they are ministering to me SO much!

Here is an article written by a man, to men, but I think it's good for we women to read to know what type of man we should be looking for. Reading this let me know that I was dealing with the WRONG type of men.

Even for women who aren't Christian/religious, this is the truth. It's called "Stop Test-Driving Your Girlfriend."

I've just pasted some excerpts, but you can read the whole article here... 
http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001306.cfm

Think like a servant, not a consumer

In 1 Thessalonians 4:6, Paul warns the Thessalonian Christians against "taking advantage" of their brothers or sisters. The larger context in the first eight verses makes clear that what Paul primarily has in view is sexual immorality, in which you take from one another a physical intimacy not rightfully yours.

But the text also suggests that there are other ways you can take advantage of one another in a dating relationship. And one of the primary ways men do this is to elicit and enjoy all the benefits of unending companionship and emotional intimacy with their girlfriends without ever committing to the covenant relationship of marriage.

Too often in dating relationships we think and act like consumers rather than servants. And not very good consumers at that. After all, no one would ever go down to his local car dealership, take a car out for an extended test drive, park it in his garage, drive it back and forth to work for several weeks, maybe take it on vacation, having put lots of miles on it, and then take it back to the dealer and say, "I'm just not ready to buy a new car."

But so often, that's exactly the way men treat the women they're dating. Endlessly "test driving" the relationship, without any real regard for the spiritual and emotional wear and tear they're putting her through, all the while keeping their eyes out for a better model.

The Scriptures are clear. We are not to take advantage of one another in this way. Instead, as Paul says in Romans 13:10, "Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."

Remember that love is never easy

One of the myths out there is that if you just spend enough time searching, if you can just gather enough information, you'll find a woman with whom marriage will be "easy." The fact is, such a woman doesn't exist, and if she did, she likely wouldn't marry you. And that means that you don't need as much information as you think you do.

No matter how long you've dated, everyone marries a stranger. That's because fundamentally dating is an artificial arrangement in which you're trying to be on your best behavior. Marriage on the other hand is real life. And it's only in the context of day-in, day-out reality, with the vulnerability and permanence that marriage provides, that we learn what another person is really like. Some of the things we learn about each other aren't easy. But who ever said that love and marriage were supposed to be easy?

Men, the point of marriage is that we learn to love our wives as Christ loved the church. Yes, as Revelation 21 and Ephesians 5 tell us, one day, Christ's bride will be perfectly beautiful, without spot or blemish, altogether lovely and loveable.

But the church is not there yet. First, Christ had to commit himself to us, even to death on a cross. This is the model we're called to follow. It's not an easy model, but it is worth it.

So your goal should not be to date her long enough until you're confident marriage won't be hard, but to date her just long enough to discern if you're willing to love her sacrificially, and if she's willing to respond to that kind of love.


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## SEMO (Nov 26, 2007)

Bunny77 said:


> So your goal should not be to date her long enough until you're confident marriage won't be hard, but to date her just long enough to discern if you're willing to love her sacrificially, and if she's willing to respond to that kind of love.



Wow, I've never heard anyone put it quite like that, but he's _*so*_ right.  I think it is unfair and selfish for a man to take the best years of a woman's life "test driving the relationship" only to say later that he doesn't want her.  I have a cousin who has been with her boyfriend for the last 10+ (not sure how many) years of her life, since they were in college, and he still has not married her .  I honestly don't think he ever will and I don't know why she's content to just stay in this limbo with him.

Thanks Bunny77 for the articles you posted.  You always post such great links (along w/ RR) .  I will have to check out the entire article b/c he sounds like a man who knows what he's talking about.  And you're right, boundless.org has been putting out some great articles, I have since added them to my favorites list.

And thank you Lauren450 for your response.  I can definitely see how a person would be more serious and motivated while dating when they know they are making an investment in their future.  There's no reason for pretenses in that situation.  You guys sound like you really did it right, and that's so encouraging to hear in a time when so many people are seemingly getting it wrong.


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## PaperClip (Nov 26, 2007)

SEMO said:


> Wow, I've never heard anyone put it quite like that, but he's _*so*_ right. *I think it is unfair and selfish for a man to take the best years of a woman's life "test driving the relationship" only to say later that he doesn't want her.* I have a cousin who has been with her boyfriend for the last 10+ (not sure how many) years of her life, since they were in college, and he still has not married her . I honestly don't think he ever will and I don't know why she's content to just stay in this limbo with him.
> 
> Thanks Bunny77 for the articles you posted. You always post such great links (along w/ RR) . I will have to check out the entire article b/c he sounds like a man who knows what he's talking about. And you're right, boundless.org has been putting out some great articles, I have since added them to my favorites list.
> 
> And thank you Lauren450 for your response. I can definitely see how a person would be more serious and motivated while dating when they know they are making an investment in their future. There's no reason for pretenses in that situation. You guys sound like you really did it right, and that's so encouraging to hear in a time when so many people are seemingly getting it wrong.


 
Yay! (thanks for the shout-out!) Bunny's takin' the wheel on this thread!

Per the bolded: how much accountability belongs to a female who ALLOWS such a thing to go on for YEARS? Which is why I asked (and kinda got ridiculed a bit) in my earlier posts about HOW LONG/HOW MUCH does it take to determine if a relationship is worth pursuing for the long-term? I'm sure your cousin has expressed that she wants to be married but dude has not responded EITHER WAY: YAY OR NAY, has he?

So is a non answer worse than a no?


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## SEMO (Nov 26, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Yay! (thanks for the shout-out!) Bunny's takin' the wheel on this thread!
> 
> Per the bolded: how much accountability belongs to a female who ALLOWS such a thing to go on for YEARS? Which is why I asked (and kinda got ridiculed a bit) in my earlier posts about HOW LONG/HOW MUCH does it take to determine if a relationship is worth pursuing for the long-term? I'm sure your cousin has expressed that she wants to be married but dude has not responded EITHER WAY: YAY OR NAY, has he?
> 
> So is a non answer worse than a no?



You're right when you talk about the woman's part in allowing a man to string her along for years w/o marriage being a serious goal.  Honestly, I believe that a lot of what people do in life is based on fear.  Fear of what will happen, may not happen, etc.  But the Bible says that God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, love and a sound mind.

I _*refuse*_ to let fear overtake me in my life.  I try to live my life with as few regrets as possible.

I believe a person should know within 1-2 years of dating whether or not a person is someone they want to marry.  And after that time they should either become engaged or move on.  If they don't know after that time then they are either ignoring red flags and/or need to grow in discernment.  In a year's time someone will show you who they are if you're looking to see it (and willing to believe what they show you about themselves).

ETA:
I think my cousin stays with him (esp. after all this time) b/c she's scared of change and the possibility of having to find somebody new.  Plus, like other women, I think she views her relationship with him as an investment (which I think is a bad one).  She's already sunk so much of her time, life, emotions, hopes, dreams, etc. into this man, and to give up on him now would be admitting that she'd made a bad decision and wasted all those resources on him.  So instead of cutting her losses and moving on, she sinks even more resources into the relationship to convince herself that it's a good investment worth hanging on to.

But I think this will backfire.  It makes me think of those women who spend years of their life trying to mold and change a man into their perfect ideal, and once he seemingly gets it together, he takes all he's learned and finds some other woman   erplexed.


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## motherx2esq (Nov 26, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Yay! (thanks for the shout-out!) Bunny's takin' the wheel on this thread!
> 
> *Per the bolded: how much accountability belongs to a female who ALLOWS such a thing to go on for YEARS?* Which is why I asked (and kinda got ridiculed a bit) in my earlier posts about HOW LONG/HOW MUCH does it take to determine if a relationship is worth pursuing for the long-term? I'm sure your cousin has expressed that she wants to be married but dude has not responded EITHER WAY: YAY OR NAY, has he?
> 
> So is a non answer worse than a no?


 
I know so many women that are in this situation and would rather be in a "long term" marriageless relationship than to be alone.  I would rather be alone (as much as I really do not want to lol) than to be with a man who will not marry me.  My step mother had to tell my father after about 7 years that she will no longer be his girlfriend.  Lord, I don't want to be in that situation but I don't think I will let things go that far.  10+ years.


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## Bunny77 (Nov 26, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Yay! (thanks for the shout-out!) Bunny's takin' the wheel on this thread!
> 
> Per the bolded: how much accountability belongs to a female who ALLOWS such a thing to go on for YEARS? Which is why I asked (and kinda got ridiculed a bit) in my earlier posts about HOW LONG/HOW MUCH does it take to determine if a relationship is worth pursuing for the long-term? I'm sure your cousin has expressed that she wants to be married but dude has not responded EITHER WAY: YAY OR NAY, has he?
> 
> So is a non answer worse than a no?



Thanks girl! You going bowling this weekend? I think I'll be there!

Anyway, I agree that the woman does have a responsibility in this situation if she flat-out knows that this man doesn't want to get married and she does. Like SEMO said, 1-2 years is enough time... and many men I know knew in less time (like, in 3 months) that they wanted to marry the woman who became their future wife, and they proposed by the end of the year or within that 2-year time period.

Sometimes too (and this was my weakness), it's not even about being in a relationship for years and being "test-driven."  I seem to run into a lot of men who start dating me and say they want to "take it slow."  Funny, they don't mean that in a sexual way -- no problem moving fast there erplexed -- but in terms of defining you as a girlfriend and making that sacrifice of their time and emotion, they want to move "slow."

I have SO many female friends who would say, "Well, just be his friend and see if he comes around."  And they'll say to hang in there for 6-9 months or so of some undefined flirtatious friendship/relationship/not really a relationship thing.

But in the meantime, I'm already feeling dude and it's soooo hard to hold my emotions in while he takes his time figuring out if he wants to be serious or not.

And each time, he usually didn't.

FINALLY over the summer, I realized that I deserved better. If you wanna be with me, be with me. Don't "take it slow" (which usually means, he still wants his freedom) and don't try to be my friend, yet you want to flirt and sleep with me. 

No longer am I going to wait it out. There are plenty of men who wouldn't even imagine doing such a thing, so why should I settle?


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## PaperClip (Nov 26, 2007)

Bunny77 said:


> Thanks girl! You going bowling this weekend? I think I'll be there!
> 
> Anyway, I agree that the woman does have a responsibility in this situation if she flat-out knows that this man doesn't want to get married and she does. Like SEMO said, 1-2 years is enough time... and many men I know knew in less time (like, in 3 months) that they wanted to marry the woman who became their future wife, and they proposed by the end of the year or within that 2-year time period.
> 
> ...


 
Bunny! Yeah, I'm planning to be there.... I hope you can make it!

1-2 years is TOO LONG to know if he wants to marry me. Now it may take 1-2 years to plan the wedding... and yet planning a wedding doesn't have to take that long, either....

I'm probably saying this because I've gotten to a point where it's about being PURPOSEFUL.... Both people need to be praying and seeking the Lord about the potential of the relationship: what is the Lord saying? Seek godly counsel. In all thy getting, get UNDERSTANDING!

ETA: this is another reason to have MIGHTY MEN in our lives to cover us. I just remembered a situation where this dude I went to high school and college with came back into my life a decade later.... the PERFECT time for me because I had graduated with my master's degree that spring. We became reacquainted that fall. I was SO EXCITED. I liked this guy a lot. He was a really nice guy and he helped me registed for my first college classes and I thought he was smart and we had a lot in common (same major). So we get reacquainted. He says all the right things. He says he is in the ministry.... I remember he sings and writes songs and poetry and it seemed like it was a nice fit. My pastor (the bishop's wife) said that he was the male version of me. When I told her how we knew each other from high school, her words were "He may have known you longer, but we know you better". She was cautiously excited for me. She even went as far as to say he better not hurt me.... He started talking plans about the future...including having a church in the future.... 

So things proceeded from like that October through the holidays. My pastors had a Christmas party at their home and I knew I was gonna go because I'm family and I was bold enough to ask the bishop if I could invite the guy. He said yes. I thought, wow, this is great. So we're at the party, and the bishop calls me and dude to his office. Five minutes after polite greetings, my bishop asks dude: "What are your intentions toward my spiritual daughter"? So I'm sitting there thinking I know what dude told me and do you know this dude actually HEMMED and HAWWED before he finally made some mention about me being his wife? What kinda mess is that? My lips were REAL TIGHT after that. I was SOOOO EMBARRASSED! 

Well, after that is when things went downhill. Dude got distant. A couple of months later (like the March of the following year), he stopped calling and answering my calls. I was disappointed and hurt, especially because I wasn't given a reason as to why he stopped talking to me. I'm telling you NOTHING. I remember that I prayed A LOT during that time. I cried a lot. I also thank God that looking back, I realized that I got over it kind of quick because there wasn't any soul ties and I do believe the Lord got me through it. So fast forward....

I heard he lost his job, lost his apt. and then a few years later, I heard he was sick and had subsequently...wait for it...













DIED.... Yep. I went to the funeral.... 
So what if I had married this dude? I might have been a widow today. Or, I could have been in a damaged position because of his irresponsibility and deceptive activities. Yeah, he did a little dirt....

I hope that testimony ministers to somebody....


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## SEMO (Nov 26, 2007)

I agree Bunny77 that a man can know in just a few months whether or not he wants to make a woman his wife.  

Now that I think about it our consumer society has messed up how people look at relationships. Take computers, it's sometimes hard to invest in a new computer (even if it has everything you want and need) when you know a newer better model may be out in 6 months.  

I was talking to one of the guys that I used to go to church with (while in undergrad) the other week and we started talking about relationships.  He asked me if I had met somebody (everybody was teasing me that when I went off to grad school I would meet my boo--I agree ).  I said that I was looking for my husband and asked him if he was searching for his wife (not implying that I wanted it to be me).  He said that he hadn't really been looking and that he was trying to focus on being friends first.  He said he sometimes just missed having female companionship.  I think he's just scared of having a grown up relationship with a woman.  He graduated a few years ago, but is still living in the college town, floating from one job to the next.  He even mentioned that he might go back for another degree b/c he didn't want to be in the real world yet.

He is in his late 20's (28 or 29) and I can see him as the kind of guy who will be trying to "find himself" until he is about 34 or 35, when he finally decides that he's grown enough to man up and be somebody's husband .  We've had a lot of good conversations in the past, but when I think about it, I don't want to be his "tide me over" friend-girl.  If he gets lonely enough maybe he'll agree with God that it's not good for man to be alone and get serious about finding a wife .  But as for me, I've decided that I want to save major emotional investments in men for my husband.


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## SEMO (Nov 26, 2007)

RR, sorry to hear about what happened with the guy.  But like you said, it's better that your bishop helped you weed him out early in the game.  

I read a book once that talked about soul-ties.  It was a book on courtship, and it said that along with maintaining physical purity men and women should be careful not to connect themselves emotionally and spiritually in ways only meant for husbands and wives.  I wholeheartedly agree.  Which is why I'm currently trying to practice being much more selective in what I say about myself, esp. with men.


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## janiebaby (Nov 28, 2007)




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## Browndilocks (Nov 28, 2007)

Hey Yall 

Back from a much needed time out.  I hope everyone had a nice Thanksgiving.  I'm going to catch up on this thread.  

Until then I have a question:  How do you guard your heart?  For real - how do you actually do it effectively? What are the practices of implementing such a thing when you're single and find yourself in a situation that has potential, but you do not want to get ahead of yourself?  How do you keep your cool without letting your desires & feelings run amuck while being straight forward and open at the same time?


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## janiebaby (Nov 28, 2007)

Browndilocks said:


> Hey Yall
> 
> Back from a much needed time out. I hope everyone had a nice Thanksgiving. I'm going to catch up on this thread.
> 
> Until then I have a question: How do you guard your heart? For real - how do you actually do it effectively? What are the practices of implementing such a thing when you're single and find yourself in a situation that has potential, but you do not want to get ahead of yourself? How do you keep your cool without letting your desires & feelings run amuck while being straight forward and open at the same time?


 
One of the things that has helped me is prayer. Another thing that helped me immediately before I even supplemented it with prayer for strength is not having sex with the person which helps me see things more clearly than I would have otherwise and helps keep me from putting them up on a pedestal. 

Another things that has helped me is by seeing how much power I hold in the situation when I don't offer sex. Heavy petting and sex talk included because I don't want to come off as a tease. Men truly do respect a woman that respects herself although they will try you. Can't blame em for tryin. 

Men are men and they are just as corny and insecure as anyone else. No one is perfect so that's how I view them and it has helped.


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## browneyedgirl (Nov 28, 2007)

motherx2esq said:


> You are so welcome.  And I am happy that you feel comfortable enough to talk and share.  I'm moving to Tennessee and I've prayed about this move for years.  And thank you so much!



You're welcome.  How do you do it with two little ones? I have one (a boy) and he is a handful.  His father has absolutely no contact with us and I don't really have any male role models around.  This has really become a major concern for me.  He is only four but, he really yearns for male attention. While I have no intention of letting just any man walk up into our lives. I do hope that one day someone will be man enough to accept the challenge with a genuine heart and a kind spirit.  Ever since I found this thread I am constantly thinking about it.  I am just so happy that I am not alone in my thoughts.  Most of my friends have moved away, married or in relationships and don't understand the lonelyness and yes, even dispair that I sometimes feel over my situation.  My mom's marriage is a mess so I can't even talk to her about this what about me feeling.  Are your parents in support of your decsion to move back home?


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## PaperClip (Nov 29, 2007)

Here's a link to some clips from Bishop Noel Jones re. singleness.... he's speaking on the point that it is not good for man to be alone....

http://www.faithmate.com/index.php?p=utterance


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## motherx2esq (Dec 3, 2007)

BUMP BUMP BUMP


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## wantingtogrow (Dec 10, 2007)

Wow, just watched the clips by Bishop Jones thanks RR, I am pleasantly surprised but you do not really hear sermons about the importance of companionship anymore because everyone is threading carefully, trying to make out like it is not that great and so people should not feel bad if they are not there. 

Truth is so sad that there is a big gap between both the sexes in christiandom but it is only for providing solutions and actually discussing the disparity that measures can be taken to overcome it instead of trying to pull wool over people's eyes and telling them to be content instead.

I am really glad that ladies on this board actually are discussing because some many of us feel guilty about why it is so hard to 'enjoy' singleness and feel bad because we yearn for something more. Truth is there is a time and season for everything for a reason and as Bishop Jones says God wont meet certain needs for us but he will provide for those needs for us because he created us to be social beings. I remember reading a book about the ministry of angels and one of them said to the author that God is more than capable of providing people's financial needs but instead he blesses us through others and not from the sky. It is the same principle, we need to be bold and not be ashamed to question something in our faith because with questions come the answers but it shows a lack of faith in the faith if you are dissatisfied about something but no-one says anything for fear of condemnation. 

Just saying again, always find this thread a blessing, thanks y'all....


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## kally (Dec 13, 2007)

I will have to check this book out. Because I know singleness is not where it is at.


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## Bunny77 (Dec 13, 2007)

wantingtogrow said:


> Wow, just watched the clips by Bishop Jones thanks RR, I am pleasantly surprised but you do not really hear sermons about the importance of companionship anymore because everyone is threading carefully, trying to make out like it is not that great and so people should not feel bad if they are not there.
> 
> Truth is so sad that there is a big gap between both the sexes in christiandom but it is only for providing solutions and actually discussing the disparity that measures can be taken to overcome it instead of trying to pull wool over people's eyes and telling them to be content instead.
> 
> ...



Yikes! I've neglected this thread!

RR, great link you found there! (and nice to meet you the other week!) I wonder why folks like Bishop Jones and his message don't get more exposure.

Wanting to Grow, I agree with everything you said!

And Kally, welcome! Now that you've cut off that negative situation, you can make room for the right one to come into your life!


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## Choclatcotton (Dec 14, 2007)

Thanks ladies, you have given me new courage to hope again, I almost threw in the towel


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## Bunny77 (Dec 14, 2007)

shalita05 said:


> Thanks ladies, you have given me new courage to hope again, I almost threw in the towel



Alright now!     There you go!  

I don't know about you, but once I committed myself to the idea that I was going to be married, I never felt happier! I also feel more optimistic than ever.

But when I was trying to "accept" potentially permanent (or long-term) singleness, I always got depressed.

No more!


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## prettywhitty (Dec 15, 2007)

Bunny77 said:


> Alright now!  There you go!
> 
> I don't know about you, but once* I committed myself to the idea that I was going to be married, I never felt happier! *I also feel more optimistic than ever.
> 
> ...


I just did this!! I am committed to getting married. I feel so much better. This thread blesses me because I have been sooooo unsatisfied with singleness, and now I know that is not what God has for me.


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## golden bronze (Dec 16, 2007)

DIED.... Yep. I went to the funeral.... 
So what if I had married this dude? I might have been a widow today. Or, I could have been in a damaged position because of his irresponsibility and deceptive activities. Yeah, he did a little dirt....

I hope that testimony ministers to somebody....[/quote]



Although there is nothing humorous about this untimely passing, you have to take note of the irony in life....God always answers prayers...and sometimes thankfully the answer is NO! 


A woman once told me a similar story about a guy she was in love with and he abruptly broke off the relationship. She cried and cried and prayed to God why didn't you answer my prayer to send me this man as my husband.

Then one day she was at the post office mailing bills, about seven years later and she looks up and sees he is MOST WANTED.

She thanked GOD that he doesn't answer all prayers.


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## golden bronze (Dec 16, 2007)

I'm in a strange place about marriage. I had a deep heartbreak about six years ago, and since then it doesn't seem too important. I don't ever want to put a man before God. It would be nice to find a suitable life partner, but I do not want to be one of the many stuck in misery because they made a bad choice.


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## janiebaby (Dec 18, 2007)




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## Sweetyb (Dec 29, 2007)

"Singleness as a gift..."

Uh... heck yeah?!!  It's as easy as breathing to accept singleness... well, when you're secure in yourself and know there's nothing else out there that will make you happy but yourself and God.

Man was I miserable years ago when I would look for that "special person" to share my time with (I blame it on R&B oldies ).  Turned out that I didn't have a life of my own and I was in turn living _his.  _What a crazed nut I was .  I truly enjoy singleness and the thrill I get from telling the foinest men in the world that I'd rather not date now (I'll date when I'm ready for marriage) and instead interested in friendship.  It's these men that I'm friends with that will be watching me over time and who knows, maybe have me in mind for a wife one day down the line--but my mind right now is only on me myself and I.  It feels good, it feels great!  Not everyone on earth will get married, and not everyone will stay married.  So why not see marriage and relationships as the "icing" on the cake (the cake being yourself and God).  I suggest people learn to have many many friendships with both men and women.  I'm my happiest when I'm single, so why not keep it that way


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## Iammoney (Dec 30, 2007)

bump...........................


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## janiebaby (Dec 30, 2007)

Ladies!!!

I have been reading a terrific book titled "His Rules: God's Practical Road Map for Becoming and Attracting Mr. or Mrs. Right" by Christopher L. Burge and Pamela Toussaint. 

This book is wonderful and I must warn you that it focuses less on the relationship with a potential spouse and mostly on cultivating the relationship between you and God. This is not a "something is wrong with you" book nor is it a "gift of singleness" book, this is just what the title says a "road map" to entering a relationship with God that will mirror your relationship with your spouse. 

If you buy it or borrow it please let me know what you think.


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## star (Dec 30, 2007)

janiebaby said:


> Ladies!!!
> 
> I have been reading a terrific book titled "His Rules: God's Practical Road Map for Becoming and Attracting Mr. or Mrs. Right" by Christopher L. Burge and Pamela Toussaint.
> 
> ...



AMENNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!


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## Iammoney (Dec 30, 2007)

hello ladies 
i have been reading this thread i think for about 3 days.  i really dont respond to threads because most of the time these ladies are reading my mind and they respond accordingly. i have really enjoyed reading this thread and i feel blessed just to have read thru all of the opinions and statements regarding being single.
i think the reason why churches teach that we should wait is because either they don't know how to address the situation or because they are married and figure you must be impatient that's why its hasn't happened to you yet.  we dont live in a society that believes in marriage anymore.  Most of us come from single family homes where the woman is the head of the household.  these young men cant really learn by example because they dont have an example to emulate.  most of these guys see there friends dating hundreds of women at the same time. to them its cool, its and ego thing it makes them feel good for the moment until they can find someone new and the cycle keeps repeating itself.  as far as some of the women are concerned when we get married, some of us dont have a clue as to how to behave as a wife. our work it cut out for us. i have a really good friend of mine.  her husband was a classmate of mine and he was one of the biggest dogs in school


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## Iammoney (Dec 30, 2007)

and i remember when my friend came to me for something and he walked over to me and said " she's going to be my wife". just like that. i was like boy please first of all she's three years older than you and she's is going away to school. he was like i dont care. as long as live i will never forget what he said.
fast forward 3 years. he gets accepted to the same school and they start to date after a string of dead end relationships.  they start dating and finally they get married in in i think 1998, its pure bliss for them.  he adores her,worships the ground she walks on. his parents have been married for over 40 yrs and the same goes for her. they both had a history of how a married couple are supposed to behave. they put God as the head of their household and if you see them together you would think they just got married. im still shocked.  
i've mentioned this more than once in other threads that i have been single for 10 years. i would not wish this on my worst enemy but at the same time it wasn't for nothing.  i do have a closer relationship with God. i've had time to reflect on my life. i have learned that i don't need a man to complete me and that my son is my biggest priority and no man should come between us.
im sure there's much more that i have learned i dont want to bore you ladies reading this. 
like most of you ladies reading this thread i was told by numerous people to wait and wait. it works for a while and then i feel sorry for myself because i feel like maybe the women in my family are not deserving of a good husband and a happy marriage. i only know of one good marriage in my family.  that's really sad because all of us are educated,smart,pretty,church going and most of us can cook and clean are a$$es off. i've got everything except for the cooking down packed. lol


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## Iammoney (Dec 30, 2007)

i fall and stay down for a while and eventually i would get up.  i believe part of my problem lies in the fact that i dont go out much and i have let myself go in the weight,hair etc go. i did that because i felt like nobody wants me why should i bother and besides i work around a bunch of women i could care less about how i appear to them.  i dont want to be that woman anymore. most of my co workers think im a nut and good person i just need to take more pride in myself. im working on that. i believe that scratch that i know that i am more than worthy of my soul mate.  i have so many qualities. im a good person im old school i know some of what it is to be a wife. im learning. i want to be the best wife i can. i want to cater to my husband,uplift him when he needs it etc. i talk to God on a daily basis about the situation.  He knows where i stand.  im contemplating on purchasing the books that you ladies mentioned but at the same time the path that i should take is not clear to me.


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## SEMO (Dec 31, 2007)

mitcy said:


> i fall and stay down for a while and eventually i would get up.  i believe part of my problem lies in the fact that i dont go out much and i have let myself go in the weight,hair etc go. i did that because i felt like nobody wants me why should i bother and besides i work around a bunch of women i could care less about how i appear to them.  i dont want to be that woman anymore. most of my co workers think im a nut and good person i just need to take more pride in myself. im working on that. i believe that scratch that i know that i am more than worthy of my soul mate.  i have so many qualities. im a good person im old school i know some of what it is to be a wife. im learning. i want to be the best wife i can. i want to cater to my husband,uplift him when he needs it etc. i talk to God on a daily basis about the situation.  He knows where i stand.  *im contemplating on purchasing the books that you ladies mentioned* but at the same time the path that i should take is not clear to me.



Thanks for joining our discussion.  I appreciated hearing what you had to say.  Just so you know, Bunny77 and I are definitely buying the book "Get Married" by Candice Watters and will probably start a thread about it or add our thoughts to this thread.  I've read some of her articles online and I like what she has to say.  So if you want to have reading buddies you could get that one and join us .


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## Iammoney (Dec 31, 2007)

then i will be hitting barnes and noble when i get up


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## Iammoney (Jan 2, 2008)

.....................


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## Browndilocks (Jan 4, 2008)

So umm err uhhh - 


Last weekend I went to church and winded up going to the single women's meeting after service.  The group leader asked me if I had anything to share about my past year, etc.  I told them that I thank God for allowing me to fire the last guy I was talking to (who took me for granted), and that I think "The Gift of Singleness" is not what God has in store for us.

I got the look


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## Bunny77 (Jan 4, 2008)

Browndilocks said:


> So umm err uhhh -
> 
> 
> Last weekend I went to church and winded up going to the single women's meeting after service.  The group leader asked me if I had anything to share about my past year, etc.  I told them that I thank God for allowing me to fire the last guy I was talking to (who took me for granted), and that I think "The Gift of Singleness" is not what God has in store for us.
> ...



I owe you a PM... sorry I've been MIA... I was out of town for the past 10 days!!!

And I love that you said this! What was the response?


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## caligirl2385 (Jan 4, 2008)

Sweetyb said:


> "Singleness as a gift..."
> 
> Uh... heck yeah?!!  It's as easy as breathing to accept singleness... well, when you're secure in yourself and know there's nothing else out there that will make you happy but yourself and God.
> 
> Man was I miserable years ago when I would look for that "special person" to share my time with (I blame it on R&B oldies ).  Turned out that I didn't have a life of my own and I was in turn living _his.  _What a crazed nut I was .  I truly enjoy singleness and the thrill I get from telling the foinest men in the world that I'd rather not date now (I'll date when I'm ready for marriage) and instead interested in friendship.  It's these men that I'm friends with that will be watching me over time and who knows, maybe have me in mind for a wife one day down the line--but my mind right now is only on me myself and I.  It feels good, it feels great!  Not everyone on earth will get married, and not everyone will stay married.  So why not see marriage and relationships as the "icing" on the cake (the cake being yourself and God).  I suggest people learn to have many many friendships with both men and women.  I'm my happiest when I'm single, so why not keep it that way



I'M PRESSING TO FEEL THE WAY YOU DO


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## Browndilocks (Jan 4, 2008)

Bunny77 said:


> I owe you a PM... sorry I've been MIA... I was out of town for the past 10 days!!!
> 
> And I love that you said this! What was the response?



Their response was an initial    and then after I was finished they took somewhat of a sigh of relief. It seemed as if they were happy that I wasn't extremely frank with my words. I think a majority of the ladies there were in shock that I actually made reference to my dating life - and the fact that I had one.

I believe that another huge facade in singles ministries is the perception by some that you should have no dating life; or pretend to not have one.  Just be holy while you're waiting/preparing for your husband to drop out of the sky, smile, and sit up under all of the married older ladies until God "promotes" you.

Reminds me of that song by Tonex - "I just want to be real with you."  God bless him.  I find myself praying for Tonex.  I don't know what he's going through but his music definitely ministers to my soul.  I just want to be real in my love life with The Lord as well as with an actual man who is good for me.  I'm serious.

But anyway, back on topic, I went on to say that I usually dred having to attend these types of meetings because they do not reach me in an effective manner.  I said that preparing for/wanting a mate is fine and all, but I would rather discuss issues that affect me right now.  Issues such the one I'm in, like firing a guy who took you for granted but now won't stop sending flowers to your house. The back & forth feelings and emotions you experience from just that. Or really diggin a guy and maybe even dating him for a while... but not really knowing why the situation fizzled, or didn't pan out the way you would have liked.  You know... real stuff from a Christian perspective. Every day stuff that I can apply to my own real life: in real time.  

The marriage talk is great and potential motherhood is lovely, but why is there such a disconnect between the practical issues of every day life for being a single woman versus being a fiancee?  I feel like singles ministries are only interested in training you to be a fiancee, and not someone who can effectively identify a good suitor before you even get to the fiancee stage.  

Why is it that as soon as you graduate from the youth choir, you're supposed to be cheerfully waiting for God to bless you with a man to marry?  This is the part that I believe is hugely neglected in singles ministries.  Let's talk about the NOW.  Why do you think talkshows are so popular?  They talk about things that are currently happening.  No one graduates from high school with a Bachelor's degree. There's a process called college created to help you transition into responsible adulthood in the working society.  Where are the collegiate level singles ministries?  Feel me?  Probably not cause I'm just a rambling toad today.  

I was very well received in the end by the younger ladies.  They were looking at me as if I said exactly what they had been thinking for a while now.


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## TrustMeLove (Jan 6, 2008)

Of course I have read Pauls writings and I agree with them 100%. 
If you have the gift of singleness than you can stay single happily. But, if you aren't happy single than obviously you have the gift of marriage. So get married. 

Lets look at the gift of salvation. It is free and God says to in Matthew 11:28, "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." 

Now if this gift is to take away our burdens and give us rest (make us free) why would another gift (gift of singleness) that he gives us put the burden back on us. 

If you arent' happy single and it is a burden than you don't have that gift.  Plan and simple. 



I'm 23 about to be 24 come May still being kept by the Lord to hold on my virginity. It's not easy trust me...but I refuse to marry just anybody. I know this person has to be God sent especially considering the things I've seen for us to do. 

I don't do single ministry anything. I rather spend my time with the evangelist ministry, feed the homeless ministry, help out at the church ministry. Just me.


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## sapphire74 (Jan 14, 2008)




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## Belle Du Jour (Jan 22, 2008)

I am struggling with GUILT from being angry/upset at being single.  I feel guilty because I feel like there are worse things that could happen to me than be single, but it just seems like at this time in my life, it's not a good situation for me.  I think friends and family are tired of hearing me lament on my singleness and just tell me to suck it up.


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## browneyedgirl (Jan 27, 2008)

My heart goes out to you because I so identify with you.  I feel like this is my little secret and that if I share how I am feeling about being single with others, they will not understand.  Married people are quick to respond with Marriage isn't all that it is cracked up to be.  Funny, I don't see any of those people trying to be single again.  I know it takes a lot of hard work but I am so up for the challenge.  I am a single mom and I haven't had a date in years. No one telling me that I look nice (no it's not the same when it comes from women), no one smiling when I enter the room (except for my excited 4 year old) and no sex (althought I really do want to wait on the one).  I have decided to play a more active role in my dating life unfortunately things won't get rolling until I move back home (to cali) this summer.  I realize I can't really date until I get babsitters and I have 3 sisters who are more than willing to help out. I was not meant to be single I have known this since I was very young.  I just didn't imagine that I'd be in my thirties and still no prospects in sight.


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## Browndilocks (Jan 28, 2008)

Excuse me yall - 

Had to check myself & take that statement back.  I'm not even going to put that type of energy out there...


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