# Is there such thing as a Saved "Christian" Fornicator?



## Poohbear (Oct 21, 2010)

Scenario:

Let's say this Christian girl professed a faith in Christ at a young age and was then baptized.  She attended church every Sunday and was very involved with the church. She read her bible, prayed, and even taught other people in the church. Then she one day experimented with sexual intercourse at the end of her high school years. As time goes on into her 20's, she continues this behavior, tries to stop and even feels bad about what she is doing every time, and prays and confesses her sin to God over and over for forgiveness. Days, weeks, or months could go by, and she would have sex again. She was never promiscuous per se (as in having multiple random sex partners), she would just always have sex with her boyfriend only. During this whole time, she is still heavily involved in the church, teaching others about the Bible, and never ceases to pray, and still claims to believe in Jesus as her personal Lord and Savior.

Is this woman still considered a born-again Christian that is SAVED on her way to Heaven after she dies? Why or why not?

If so, then wouldn't you say everyone that claims to be a Christian and still commits sin is going to Heaven no matter what they say or do?

If not, wouldn't you say that you must stop sinning completely in order to be saved?

And if you don't believe you must stop sinning completely in order to be saved, then how can you judge this woman as unsaved?

Please share your thoughts...


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## dicapr (Oct 21, 2010)

I would consider her saved.  I only say this is because she is struggling with this sin.  She goes through periods of celibacy only to fall into temptation.  This is not the same as knowing it is a  sin and not fighting the flesh.  Perfection (becoming sinless) is a journey with God.  Others struggle with sins for longer periods of times than others.  The key is to continue to strengthen your relationship with God to finally be able to overcome temptation.  Hopefully she will find a boyfriend who believes as she does so that when she is weak she will have some encouragement.  That may be part of the problem.  She is dating men who are not encouraging her spiritual walk and when she is weak they take advantage of her.


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## chelseatiara (Oct 21, 2010)

that sounds familiar...what i did was get re-baptized to profess my faith and broke up with my boyfriend. It was hard (and recent) but he is supportive and understood that it be better if we were friends. Now we are back "together" but the is only getting a very small percentage of my time. By limiting our time together and exploring my relationship with God  it has taught me to be strong and not be led into temptation when i know i am weak.

but back to the subject we as people can not judge someone as saved or unsaved but .... the bible says if you give up this life you will have eternal life; and their is no way to completely stop sinning but if she humbles herself and gives up what is causing her to sin she will learn to be stronger and live her life as a "saved" woman.


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## Poohbear (Oct 21, 2010)

dicapr said:


> I would consider her saved.  I only say this is because she is struggling with this sin.  She goes through periods of celibacy only to fall into temptation.  *This is not the same as knowing it is a  sin and not fighting the flesh. * Perfection (becoming sinless) is a journey with God.  Others struggle with sins for longer periods of times than others.  The key is to continue to strengthen your relationship with God to finally be able to overcome temptation.  Hopefully she will find a boyfriend who believes as she does so that when she is weak she will have some encouragement.  That may be part of the problem.  She is dating men who are not encouraging her spiritual walk and when she is weak they take advantage of her.



Can you explain how this is not the same as knowing it is a sin and not fighting the flesh? The girl clearly knows that fornication is a sin.

And let's say this girl is not being taken advantage of... she enjoys having sex with her boyfriend... even though she feels bad about doing it because it's a sin against God...


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## Crown (Oct 21, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> And let's say this girl is not being taken advantage of... she enjoys having sex with her boyfriend... even though she feels bad about doing it because it's a sin against God...


 If she continues to fight with a *sincere *heart : pray and fast, not put herself in danger (in a situation where it's easy to do this sin)... her victory will be a testimony for others.
Mat. *5.30* And if thy right  hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is  profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that  thy whole body should be cast into hell.


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## Crown (Oct 21, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Is this woman still considered a born-again Christian that is SAVED on her way to Heaven after she dies? Why or why not?
> Ps. 51.11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and *take not thy holy spirit from me*. 51.12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
> 
> 
> ...



She feels bad about that sin? Must be something... Do you think all fornicators feel bad about doing fornication because it is a sin? I don't think so!
Don’t look at others, it’s not your life, you can just pray for them and give advice if they ask for.
But you can do great things for YOU (general).


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## Guitarhero (Oct 21, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Is this woman still considered a born-again Christian that is SAVED on her way to Heaven after she dies? Why or why not?



In my opinion, nobody knows who is going to go to heaven because that's God's realm and decision.  However, we can hope that, by following the rules, we will attain heaven.  With that said and continuing to be IMHO, if she confesses, then she's a person who listens to God.  She has an habitual sin.  Incidentally, it's mortal sin.  But she confesses it and regains salvific grace according to scripture.  Venial sin doesn't remove salvific grace, but it does damage your relationship with God.  The diff. is in the seriousness of the offense, commmitted with full knowledge and volition.

So, yes, she is a christian.  I don't know about born-again and whatnot...I just know "christian" and if the person is baptised, s/he has been reborn in spirit.  The key is walking the walk and confessing sin, making a turn around.  Habitual sins are difficult and only God knows the heart but people who do not follow God do not confess their sins in an effort to turn them around.  

For example,  prayers I go by...

"I confess to Almighty God,and to your my brothers and sisters,
that I have sinned through my own fault,
in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done, 
and in what I have failed to do....." and it goes on with the BVM intercession that I won't post


After confession:

"My God, I am sorry for my sins with all my heart.
    In choosing to do wrong and failing to do good,
    I have sinned against you whom I should love above all things.
    I firmly intend, with your help, to do penance, to sin no more, and to avoid whatever leads me to sin.
    Our Saviour Jesus Christ, suffered and died for us.
    In his name, my God, have mercy"


Mercy is built into the salvation that Christ offers.  Why?  Because man sins and continues to sin.  He has sinned since the first sin and all that are born have the propensity to sin.  People sin, whether they love God or not.  If God only would offer final salvation to the sinless, He wouldn't have built in confession nor forgiveness.  And I am painfully aware of those who do not consider me to be a christian because of 1)religion and 2)my orientation.  I don't care...I only answer to Him.  The proofs are there...that's what I go by.


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## Shimmie (Oct 21, 2010)

bananabunneh said:


> that sounds familiar...what i did was get re-baptized to profess my faith and broke up with my boyfriend. It was hard (and recent) but he is supportive and understood that it be better if we were friends. Now we are back "together" but the is only getting a very small percentage of my time. By limiting our time together and exploring my relationship with God it has taught me to be strong and not be led into temptation when i know i am weak.
> 
> but back to the subject we as people can not judge someone as saved or unsaved but .... the bible says if you give up this life you will have eternal life; and their is no way to completely stop sinning but if she humbles herself and gives up what is causing her to sin she will learn to be stronger and live her life as a "saved" woman.


 
 :nothworthy: 



Excellent message.  

I have but a few things to add to the thread:

The 'prodigal' son. He 'fell' away from his father, but later returned to his father with a repentant heart. 

In reference to the young lady, I would definitely that she is still a Christian, however, she should not be teaching or in any type of leadership (teaching is leading), until she has completely surrenedered this struggle over to the Lord. 

And there are so many reasons why. Such as:

The more she yields unto this temptation, the more it grows. What if she were to become pregnant which would drop her testimony before her students and the Church. 

What if she and her boyfriend are 'discovered' spending the night with one another [it's obvious when a couple is having sex -- their body language and behaviour tells on them; especially if they are surrounded by those in the Church? 'You' can tell; something about 'them' gives it away. :scratchch: Another drop in her testimony. 

She cannot stand before her students with this in her life. She has to have been delivered from it; for how else can she be  used to minister to them faithfully? 

She has to come 'clean', meaning she cannot teach what she is not living. 

:Rose:


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## Poohbear (Oct 21, 2010)

Crown said:


> She feels bad about that sin? Must be something... Do you think all fornicators feel bad about doing fornication because it is a sin? I don't think so!
> Don’t look at others, it’s not your life, you can just pray for them and give advice if they ask for.
> But you can do great things for YOU (general).


Thank you for your posts.

And yeah, I agree that I know not all fornicators feel bad about having premarital sex.

By the way, I know you said "YOU (general)", but I just wanted to say that my initial post was purely a scenario or example of a Christian committing a sin that they know is wrong. I'm personally not looking at someone else life or anything.


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## fifi134 (Oct 21, 2010)

You can be a born-again Christian who sins. There's nothing else you can be. It is impossible for the Christian not to sin, because the Bible says in Romans 3:10 that "there is no one righteous, no not one". Verse 12 says "there is no one who does good". God knows that although we've been given the power not to sin, we will still struggle and slip up sometimes. Despite the fact that the Bible says there is no temptation that we can't overcome, we are still living in a sinful world and are easily influenced by what we see/hear. This does not make sin excusable, but because we are saved, we have the ability to come before God with a sincere heart and repent from our sins, and be forgiven.

This is different from habitual sin, where an unsaved person continues their daily life committing sin without regret or remorse. When we as Christians sin, that guilt we feel that leads us to the Cross is the Holy Spirit convicting us. The unsaved person does not have that, and so they continue to sin.


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## Guitarhero (Oct 21, 2010)

sopo144 said:


> You can be a born-again Christian who sins. There's nothing else you can be. It is impossible for the Christian not to sin, because the Bible says in Romans 3:10 that "there is no one righteous, no not one". Verse 12 says "there is no one who does good". God knows that although we've been given the power not to sin, we will still struggle and slip up sometimes. Despite the fact that the Bible says there is no temptation that we can't overcome, we are still living in a sinful world and are easily influenced by what we see/hear. This does not make sin excusable, but because we are saved, we have the ability to come before God with a sincere heart and repent from our sins, and be forgiven.
> 
> This is different from habitual sin, where an unsaved person continues their daily life committing sin without regret or remorse. When we as Christians sin, that guilt we feel that leads us to the Cross is the Holy Spirit convicting us. The unsaved person does not have that, and so they continue to sin.


 
I respectfully disagree on habitual sin.  It has a lot to do with your psychology.  One can absolutely have an habitual sin and be a christian struggling through it.  In fact, christians with habitual sins face a lot of remorse but continue sinning through their faulty nature.  What defines them as christians is that they have remorse but find the sin incredibly difficult to overcome fully.  

Some say that Paul's discourse was overlapping the original Law with the new Law, comparing the old nature and the inability to avoid sin with the new one Christ gives that makes it possible to avoid it and that he wasn't discussing a personal habitual sin.  But there are many levels of understanding in scripture and it could apply to a person with an habitual sin under Christ who gives the ability to avoid sin.  Habitual sins, mostly sexual in nature, can be formed over a lifetime and make it difficult to overcome.

Romans
7:14-20 - After all, the Law itself is really concerned with the spiritual - it is I who am carnal, and have sold my soul to sin. In practice, what happens? My own behaviour baffles me. For I find myself not doing what I really want to do but doing what I really loathe. Yet surely if I do things that I really don't want to do, I am admitting that I really agree with the Law. But it cannot be said that "I" am doing them at all - it must be sin that has made its home in my nature. (And indeed, I know from experience that the carnal side of my being can scarcely be called the home of good!) I often find that I have the will to do good, but not the power. That is, I don't accomplish the good I set out to do, and the evil I don't really want to do I find I am always doing. Yet if I do things that I don't really want to do then it is not, I repeat, "I" who do them, but the sin which has made its home within me.  

The good news is that we are no longer slaves to sin without a way out of it but it might take time to completely get rid of it due to one's individual nature.


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## Poohbear (Oct 22, 2010)

sopo144 said:


> You can be a born-again Christian who sins. There's nothing else you can be. It is impossible for the Christian not to sin, because the Bible says in Romans 3:10 that "there is no one righteous, no not one". Verse 12 says "there is no one who does good". God knows that although we've been given the power not to sin, we will still struggle and slip up sometimes. Despite the fact that the Bible says there is no temptation that we can't overcome, we are still living in a sinful world and are easily influenced by what we see/hear. This does not make sin excusable, but because we are saved, we have the ability to come before God with a sincere heart and repent from our sins, and be forgiven.
> 
> This is different from habitual sin, where an unsaved person continues their daily life committing sin without regret or remorse. When we as Christians sin, that guilt we feel that leads us to the Cross is the Holy Spirit convicting us. The unsaved person does not have that, and so they continue to sin.


Habitual sin is sin committed out of habit. The person is used to doing the sin.  The Bible mentions nothing about habitual sin. The word "habitual" doesn't even appear in the Bible. All sin, regardless of how man categorizes it, is against God. 

If an unsaved person is someone that continues their daily life committing sin without regret or remorse, then why do a lot of "saved" folks say we sin daily and we must repent daily? Aren't they really unsaved? Do they really feel regret and remorse for their sins if they continue to do the sin and actually enjoy the sin?

It just doesn't make sense when people say "Now this doesn't make an excuse to sin" when people actually are making excuses to sin. People wouldn't have to say that if they weren't making excuses for it.

Guilt should lead a true saved Christian to stop the sin, not commit it every now and then, or habitually.  All sins that you KNOW for a fact are wrong are done intentionally and willfully. There's no way around it.  Like this scenario, this girl knows that fornication is wrong and has read it in her Bible, but yet, still commits the sin because she enjoys it, but yet, feels bad about it ONLY because the Bible says it's wrong. So she is a born-again saved Christian because she feels bad about it only because it's wrong according to the Bible? 

What's the difference in a believing Christian feeling bad for doing wrong and a nonbeliever (like an Atheist) feeling bad for doing wrong? Is God working through both of them? How can we tell the difference between a Godly sorrow and a worldly sorrow in this case?


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## Poohbear (Oct 22, 2010)

Shimmie said:


> :nothworthy:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree that she should step down from teaching, but how can ANY "Christian" teach against sin if you believe all true Christians sin and still sin as long as they live? No one is really practicing what they are teaching/preaching. What's the use if we all still gonna sin anyway?

Getting pregnant or getting caught sleeping with her boyfriend is more of a concern for how she looks to other people and to the world... Shouldn't the concern be about what God sees, thinks, and knows, and not the world?


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## Guitarhero (Oct 22, 2010)

You have to live by faith.  Just as one cannot fathom the greatness of God, one can neither fathom the depths of His mercy.  Man is more than spirit, he is flesh and that contains his psychology.  It's the whole person of a fallen nature that God is addressing.  Mercy is built into His salvation.  He knows people are going to sin.  And, yes, when people commit the same sins over and over again (getting better at resisting but still falling at times), if they ask God for forgiveness, then that is definitely remorse and sorrow.  Otherwise, you'd say, "forget it."  I don't comprehend why this is so confusing all the time.  Not judging you...but this issue is a very difficult one, I've noticed.  I hope you get your answer that you can put into your heart and know it as truth  Not indicating you, but other situations...people who cannot understand this issue of sin often don't know how to forgive themselves.  I've been there.


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## PinkPebbles (Oct 22, 2010)

Poohbear -

This is a great discussion. I have been where your friend is now. And if most of us young Christian women be real about it, most of have been there or will probably face this temptation when a man comes into our lives. 


I knew what I was doing with my ex-boyfriend was wrong. I struggled, felt convicted, remorseful, repented, and confessed. I used to have talks with him about how I’m displeasing God. We would stop for a season but subtly the cycle would begin again. 


I continued to pray and seek God. I knew the word and God allowed some things to happen so I can choose who I’m going serve – God or my ex-boyfriend? The choice was mine and I chose God. I had to leave that man alone because we were unequally yoked. He didn’t have a problem or a conviction with pre-marital sex but I did, therefore; I had to walk away. 


I was good enough to sleep with but wasn’t good enough to marry…that is a serious problem. That showed me right there that he is out for himself. He is not concerned about me, let alone my salvation. So why I’m giving him my soul, body, and mind!?! Why I’m serving this man!?!


I shared this story to say if we all take a look within ourselves and be real we know why we won’t stop having premarital sex that is considered sin in the eyes of God.


Most Christian women who continue premarital sex with their boyfriend after conviction does so out of fear. They fear if they stop their boyfriend will leave. And that’s the bottom line. I don’t think the situation is that deep; it’s a choice that most of us will have to face. It only becomes deep and complicated when we engage in things that we know is wrong in the eyes of God.  That’s when the battle between the flesh and the spirit will continue to be ongoing.


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## Poohbear (Oct 22, 2010)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> You have to live by faith.  Just as one cannot fathom the greatness of God, one can neither fathom the depths of His mercy.  Man is more than spirit, he is flesh and that contains his psychology.  It's the whole person of a fallen nature that God is addressing.  Mercy is built into His salvation.  He knows people are going to sin.  And, yes, when people commit the same sins over and over again (getting better at resisting but still falling at times), if they ask God for forgiveness, then that is definitely remorse and sorrow.  Otherwise, you'd say, "forget it."  I don't comprehend why this is so confusing all the time.  Not judging you...but this issue is a very difficult one, I've noticed.  I hope you get your answer that you can put into your heart and know it as truth  Not indicating you, but other situations...people who cannot understand this issue of sin often don't know how to forgive themselves.  I've been there.


Thanks Volver Alma Gitana, but do you believe in the doctrine of Apocatastasis (Universal Salvation)? In the end, God will save everyone, right? That's the only conclusion I can come to whenever I hear people say "true Christians still sin and will sin until they physically die". 

I see where you said some people cannot understand the issue of sin because they don't know how to forgive themselves. Well, how can someone forgive themselves if they continue to do the same sin over and over again, that they KNOW is wrong and against God, His Will, and His Word?

I know you are not judging me... even if you were, I would not mind it.  It's confusing because I've been reading my bible a whole lot lately, and I can actually see where all different Christian views are coming from with the issue of sin and salvation.  For me personally, I am concerned about my faith and beliefs... I don't know what to believe anymore.


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## Guitarhero (Oct 22, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Thanks Volver Alma Gitana, but do you believe in the doctrine of Apocatastasis (Universal Salvation)? In the end, God will save everyone, right? That's the only conclusion I can come to whenever I hear people say "true Christians still sin and will sin until they physically die".
> 
> I see where you said some people cannot understand the issue of sin because they don't know how to forgive themselves. Well, how can someone forgive themselves if they continue to do the same sin over and over again, that they KNOW is wrong and against God, His Will, and His Word?
> 
> I know you are not judging me... even if you were, I would not mind it.  It's confusing because I've been reading my bible a whole lot lately, and I can actually see where all different Christian views are coming from with the issue of sin and salvation.  For me personally, I am concerned about my faith and beliefs...* I don't know what to believe anymore.*


 
But you are definitely on the right path, seeking truth.  Stay on it!!!!  Don't ever leave it.  As far as universal salvation, scripture speaks of spiritual death and apocatatasis  is not taught in my church as it's heresy.  

PinkPebbles

That's a good observation on why most christian women have pre-marital sex with their boyfriends.  I can say that my pre-marital sex days (even tho I was raised to believe it was wrong) later in college life was because.....it felt good.  I didn't have a boyfriend lol.


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## Poohbear (Oct 22, 2010)

Here are some scriptures from the New Testament that stick out to me...

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

"Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21) 

"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21-8) 

"Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie." (Revelation 22:14-15)

These verses are telling me that God does not reward unrighteousness. He doesn't put any exceptions in there like "unless you believe in Jesus" or "unless you don't do it all the time" or "unless you feel sorry about what you do over and over again" or "unless you pray for forgiveness every time you do this sin". I can't see how someone can stand up and say "I'm a fornicator, and I believe in Jesus and I'm a Christian saved by the Grace of God."  Now I can see if someone said "I WAS a fornicator" or "I USED TO BE a fornicator" as being a Christian who's saved, but not a person living as a current fornicator.


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## Raspberry (Oct 22, 2010)

^^^ Poohbear - You may benefit greatly from reading the Amplified version of the Bible (focuses on greater extrapolation of Greek and Hebrew words) and checking out Greek/Hebrew dictionaries and concordances. The Greek language for example has very complex shades of meaning and it helps immensely to search out what original nouns and verbs mean. 

For me, just reading the Amplified on a regular basis had drastically changed the meaning I derive from many passages.


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## Poohbear (Oct 22, 2010)

Raspberry said:


> ^^^ Poohbear - You may benefit greatly from reading the Amplified version of the Bible (focuses on greater extrapolation of Greek and Hebrew words) and checking out Greek/Hebrew dictionaries and concordances. The Greek language for example has very complex shades of meaning and it helps immensely to search out what original nouns and verbs mean.
> 
> For me, just reading the Amplified on a regular basis had drastically changed the meaning I derive from many passages.


Thank you for the suggestion, however, I have read verses in the Amplified Bible before as I have been studying the Bible. Another lady recommended it to me several months ago, so I decided to check it out. After reading certain passages in it, I feel like it "sugar-coats" the true meaning of the word.  

For example:

*King James Version Bible of 1 John 3:6-9*
6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

*Amplified Bible of 1 John 3:6-9*
6No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him--deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived, or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him].

7Boys (lads), let no one deceive and lead you astray. He who practices righteousness [who is upright, conforming to the divine will in purpose, thought, and action, living a consistently conscientious life] is righteous, even as He is righteous.

8[But] he who commits sin [who practices evildoing] is of the devil [takes his character from the evil one], for the devil has sinned (violated the divine law) from the beginning. The reason the Son of God was made manifest (visible) was to undo (destroy, loosen, and dissolve) the works the devil [has done].

9No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, for God's nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
See how the Amplified Bible adds in [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] before sin? Don't you think that any "Christian" that fornicates is doing that sin "deliberately, knowingly, and habitually"? When a man and woman has sex outside of marriage, they are wanting to do that act; better yet, they enjoy it and can't deny that. Adding those words makes people think that the sin they do isn't that bad since they are believers and that they pray for forgiveness over and over again.  

__________________________________________

Romans 6 is a powerful chapter that I always come back to that speaks against true believers sinning. Here's verses 1-14:

1What shall we say then? *Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?*
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
*12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body,* that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
*13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God*, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.


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## fifi134 (Oct 22, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Habitual sin is sin committed out of habit. The person is used to doing the sin.  The Bible mentions nothing about habitual sin. The word "habitual" doesn't even appear in the Bible. All sin, regardless of how man categorizes it, is against God.
> 
> If an unsaved person is someone that continues their daily life committing sin without regret or remorse, then why do a lot of "saved" folks say we sin daily and we must repent daily? Aren't they really unsaved? Do they really feel regret and remorse for their sins if they continue to do the sin and actually enjoy the sin?
> 
> ...


 
Of course the Bible doesn't mention the word habitual. It also doesn't mean the word Trinity, Hell or atheist yet we believe those exist also. By no means am I saying that sins committed by Christians and sins committed by non Christians are different. Sin is sin is sin. 

I've never heard of the phrase that we sin daily so we must repent daily. Even so, it is IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANYONE TO STOP SINNING! The Bible says so clearly! If we were to stop sinning, we would be good, but we know only Christ is good, because 2 Corinthians 5:21 says only in Him was there was no sin.

Yes we as Christians have the power to stop sinning, but we are still fallen man. We are redeemed, but that doesn't mean we are saints once we're saved.

There is no one capable of not sinning besides Christ. Why do you think Paul talked about doing what he didn't wanna do, but not doing what he wanted to? He sinned, just as we all do. If you are truly convicted, you can overcome a particular sin you are struggling with through prayer, fasting, studying your Word and staying within the presence of God. I just do not believe that is something that will happen overnight once we are regenerated by the Spirit. 

Feeling bad doesn't mean you are saved. The problem with your example is that an atheist WON'T feel bad about sinning. They have enmity with God, so pleasing Him by leading a life as pure as they can is of no concern to them. Godly sorrow means one will truly prostrate themselves before Him and repent of their sins. A sincere repentance wouldn't just mean you'll stop for now, but that you'd do as best as you can by the grace of God not to do it again. That is why repentance means to turn away. Once you turn away, you do not go back. Psalm 51 is a great passage about true repentance and Godly sorrow.

It's not an excuse of sin to say that we all fall. The Bible explicitly says that. What I'm saying is that we have the chance that nonbelievers do not have; God gives us a chance to come before Him and repent for forgiveness. That is why 1 John 1:9 says God is faithful and just to cleanse us from our sins if we confess them.

Surely the verse (along with several others) wouldn't be there if we were truly capable of not sinning.

David himself sinned with Bathsheba and got her husband Uriah killed. Yet David was a man after God's own heart. Was David not saved?


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## Raspberry (Oct 22, 2010)

Also, original Greek does make distinctions related to habitual sin, sin done out of ignorance, and purposeful sin. Many of us do sin out of ignorance - ex. being prideful: not that most of us set out to be prideful but you may look back later on and realize you had a prideful mindset in a particular thing. But if I call up an ex tonight and decide I just gotta get some, knowing I'm dead wrong, that kind of sin must be taken seriously in my life and eradicated.

I'll have to come back later with more scripture reference but this is an interesting passage.

*1 John 1:5-9 - New King James*

*Fellowship with Him and One Another*

5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

*1 John 1:5-9 - Amplified*

5And this is the message [the message of [g]promise] which we have heard from Him and now are reporting to you: God is Light, and there is no darkness in Him at all [[h]no, not in any way].

    6[So] if we say we are partakers together and enjoy fellowship with Him when we live and move and are walking about in darkness, we are [both] speaking falsely and do not live and practice the Truth [which the Gospel presents].

    7But if we [really] are living and walking in the Light, as He [Himself] is in the Light, we have [true, unbroken] fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses (removes) us from all sin and guilt [keeps us cleansed from sin in all its forms and manifestations].

    8If we say we have no sin [refusing to admit that we are sinners], we delude and lead ourselves astray, and the Truth [which the Gospel presents] is not in us [does not dwell in our hearts].

    9If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action].

    10If we say (claim) we have not sinned, we contradict His Word and make Him out to be false and a liar, and His Word is not in us [the divine message of the Gospel is not in our hearts].


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## Poohbear (Oct 22, 2010)

sopo144 said:


> Of course the Bible doesn't mention the word habitual. It also doesn't mean the word Trinity, Hell or atheist yet we believe those exist also. By no means am I saying that sins committed by Christians and sins committed by non Christians are different. Sin is sin is sin.
> 
> I've never heard of the phrase that we sin daily so we must repent daily. Even so, it is IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANYONE TO STOP SINNING! The Bible says so clearly! If we were to stop sinning, we would be good, but we know only Christ is good, because 2 Corinthians 5:21 says only in Him was there was no sin.
> 
> ...


 
David did not go back and sin with Bathsheba again after he repented.

I'm talking about Christians who sin, pray for forgiveness, and then go right back and do that same sin again. 

Repentance means you turn completely away from sin.... it doesn't mean you "try" your best not to do it again. That means you really haven't stop doing the sin or you don't intend to stop doing the sin.

Just like when a smoker says "I'm trying to stop smoking." That means they haven't stop and don't intend to stop any time soon.


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## Poohbear (Oct 22, 2010)

Raspberry said:


> Also, original Greek does make distinctions related to habitual sin, sin done out of ignorance, and purposeful sin. Many of us do sin out of ignorance - ex. being prideful: not that most of us set out to be prideful but you may look back later on and realize you had a prideful mindset in a particular thing. But if I call up an ex tonight and decide I just gotta get some, knowing I'm dead wrong, that kind of sin must be taken seriously in my life and eradicated.



But the scenario I gave is not talking about sin done out of ignorance. This girl that is fornicating is not doing this sin out of ignorance. She KNOWS it's wrong but yet chooses to do it anyway because she likes it, but at the same time, only feels bad about it because fornication is against God in the Bible. Is she really saved or not? That's the question.

I'm talking about Christians who commit deliberate, habitual sins knowingly. Can they really claim to be born of God and know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of their lives?


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## Raspberry (Oct 22, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Thank you for the suggestion, however, I have read verses in the Amplified Bible before as I have been studying the Bible. Another lady recommended it to me several months ago, so I decided to check it out. After reading certain passages in it, I feel like it "sugar-coats" the true meaning of the word.
> 
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> See how the Amplified Bible adds in [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] before sin? Don't you think that any "Christian" that fornicates is doing that sin "deliberately, knowingly, and habitually"? When a man and woman has sex outside of marriage, they are wanting to do that act; better yet, they enjoy it and can't deny that. Adding those words makes people think that the sin they do isn't that bad since they are believers and that they pray for forgiveness over and over again.



I want to reiterate that the Amplified isn't "adding" words, rather if you look at those original Greek words those meanings are more accurate a translation as our english words tend to be derivative. We all have access to the original Greek to check it for ourselves. There may have been 5 different Greek words for sin and that particular word had those particular shades of meaning.

Also, there are a ton of sins we may commit unknowingly and not habitually. I do believe that if someone is habitually fornicating and has no guilt, I have to question whether they were saved in the first place, as the Holy Spirit inside cannot tolerate that continual conscious defilement and Jesus says that if we loved God we will keep his commandments. Christians who constantly succumb to their urges tend be the most miserable of folk as their spirits will agitate the flesh and vice versa. 

Clearly the Bible states that Christians will be judged for what they did with their bodies and talents and we will suffer loss of reward for some of those things - and I wish to be always aware of that appointment I have with Jesus. However, the Bible also says that that grace is continually available to continually cleanse us.  

Do you think that a Christian loses their salvation whenever they sin?


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## Laela (Oct 22, 2010)

*1 John 3:6-9* is a very good Scripture... it's talking about willfully sinning. A person who is abiding in God will not WANT to sin.  So, to avoid continually sinning, the born-again Believer must ABIDE (i.e., continuously spend time with God, by  Praying, reading (or eating) his Word, because it is Life to the Believer.
The Word is the "seed" mentioned in verse 9. The more His seed grows in us, the less room there is for sin. IOW, when we _abide_, we cannot continually sin. Abiding and being born-again go hand in hand. It doesn't mean a Believe cannot sin/fall at all, but we won't practice sin because we're too busy abiding. 

But to the address the linguistics... I take it the word you're referring to is "_commit_?"
For someone to COMMIT anything, it has to be done deliberately. So referencing the meaning the word "commit", which is also in the KJV version, the understanding is that the sin is willful.

If you want to get technical, here's the definition of the word "commit"

com·mit
verb \kə-ˈmit\
com·mit·tedcom·mit·ting
Definition of COMMIT
transitive verb
1
a : to put into charge or trust : entrust b : to place in a prison or mental institution c : to consign or record for preservation <commit it to memory> d : to put into a place for disposal or safekeeping e : to refer (as a legislative bill) to a committee for consideration and report
2
: to carry into action deliberately : perpetrate <commit a crime>
3
a : obligate, bind <a contract committing the company to complete the project on time> b : to pledge or assign to some particular course or use <commit all troops to the attack> c : to reveal the views of <refused to commit himself on the issue>
intransitive verb
1
obsolete : to perpetrate an offense
2
: to obligate or pledge oneself
— com·mit·ta·ble\-ˈmi-tə-bəl\ adjective  





Poohbear said:


> Thank you for the suggestion, however, I have read verses in the Amplified Bible before as I have been studying the Bible. Another lady recommended it to me several months ago, so I decided to check it out. After reading certain passages in it, I* feel like it "sugar-coats" the true meaning of the word.  *
> 
> For example:
> 
> ...


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## Raspberry (Oct 22, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> But the scenario I gave is not talking about sin done out of ignorance. This girl that is fornicating is not doing this sin out of ignorance. She KNOWS it's wrong but yet chooses to do it anyway because she likes it, but at the same time, only feels bad about it because fornication is against God in the Bible. Is she really saved or not? That's the question.
> 
> I'm talking about Christians who commit deliberate, habitual sins knowingly. Can they really claim to be born of God and know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of their lives?


 
You know what, I really do hear you. Yes I do think we can question the salvation of people who continually and purposefully sin while claiming to be Christians and proud of it.  Now I have seen patterns of behavior in people who grow up in certain church environments where sinful lifestyles are glossed over and downplayed. It makes me wonder if many are saved but remain victims of unsound examples (thought many of these folks do know the Word enough to know better)- it becomes obvious when their lives bear no fruit.  It's also sobering to think about those the scripture that says "Many will come to me saying 'Lord, Lord'..."  is referring to.  

Poohbear I thank you for your comments in this thread because you have me thinking about how many of us (including myself) need a wake-up call to holiness and fear of the living God.


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## Laela (Oct 22, 2010)

Pooh, it's funny you have started this thread.. you must've been watching Benny Hinn?  Two days ago, I watched his teaching on that same Scripture (1 John 3:9), which basically identifies what it really means to be born again. The message to unbelievers, is they must first be born again. For believers, they must renew their mind (abide).... it's not an instant thing but a process.   It's not about judging anyone but looking at what God's Word says.

This is why God wants us to keep his Word continually before our eyes...the more we do, the more of his wisdom we acquire and the more 'see' the devil's tricks and wiles in our own lives. Satan loves to use our own weaknesses (what tempts us) against us, to get us to sin. He's been doing that since Adam. Being born into sin (Psalms 51) is no excuse to stay in it. Once we know our temptations, we turn away from them or don't purposefully put ourselves in positions to be tempted.  
It's always good see how far we've come, with transformation through the Holy Spirit. People who are born-again WILL CHANGE; everyone's growth/process is different...the things I used to do, I do them no more, etc...


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## fifi134 (Oct 22, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> David did not go back and sin with Bathsheba again after he repented.
> 
> I'm talking about Christians who sin, pray for forgiveness, and then go right back and do that same sin again.
> 
> ...



We all intend to sin when we do so. Someone struggling with pornography, or cursing, or fornication, etc. may very well be sincere in their attempts to stop sinning. But that turn around will not stop overnight cold turkey. In fact, the sin you so strongly desire to stop committing may cause temptation to intensify, making it even harder to stop. I agree, true repentance means we will turn away and not do it again, but we have to be realistic in understanding that it's not something that happens once you stop praying to God about it.

This is what I mean by 'habitual sin'. It's when for instance, I continue to sin over and over and over again, with no intention on stopping or repenting. That is what 1 John 3:6 speaks on. People who "keep on sinning". Those are the ones who are do not "live in Him". That is vastly different from a Christian who sins and sincerely asks for God's forgiveness.


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## Poohbear (Oct 22, 2010)

Laela said:


> But to the address the linguistics... I take it the word you're referring to is "_commit_?"
> *For someone to COMMIT anything, it has to be done deliberately.* So referencing the meaning the word "commit", which is also in the KJV version, the understanding is that the sin is willful.


I agree with you, but my point of me "getting technical" per se is because I've heard Christians say that the sin(s) that they do occasionally does not classify as deliberate, habitual, continuous sin, when it really is if they KNOW it is wrong. And the word "practice" softens up the word "commit".


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## Guitarhero (Oct 22, 2010)

Can I respectfully ask WHY it's so necessary to determine whether another person is saved or not?  Aren't we supposed to be concerned about OUR walk with God?  I'm not talking about not caring for humanity at all but that nit-picky "s/he isn't saved" attitude that is so prevalent in the christian community when it should be all about "how am *I* doing, Lord?"


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## Poohbear (Oct 22, 2010)

Laela said:


> Pooh, it's funny you have started this thread.. you must've been watching Benny Hinn?  Two days ago, I watched his teaching on that same Scripture (1 John 3:9), which basically identifies what it really means to be born again. The message to unbelievers, is they must first be born again. For believers, they must renew their mind (abide).... it's not an instant thing but a process.   It's not about judging anyone but looking at what God's Word says.
> 
> This is why God wants us to keep his Word continually before our eyes...the more we do, the more of his wisdom we acquire and the more 'see' the devil's tricks and wiles in our own lives. Satan loves to use our own weaknesses (what tempts us) against us, to get us to sin. He's been doing that since Adam. Being born into sin (Psalms 51) is no excuse to stay in it. Once we know our temptations, we turn away from them or don't purposefully put ourselves in positions to be tempted.
> It's always good see how far we've come, with transformation through the Holy Spirit. People who are born-again WILL CHANGE; everyone's growth/process is different...the things I used to do, I do them no more, etc...


 No, I don't even watch Benny Hinn at all.  The reason I mentioned that verse 1 John 3:9 is because it has stuck with me ever since I was first introduced to it earlier this year from a Christian woman who claimed to no longer commit sin. Then I presented this verse to another Christian and they started changing the meaning of the word "commit".

And I agree with what you have said above.


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## Poohbear (Oct 22, 2010)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> Can I respectfully ask WHY it's so necessary to determine whether another person is saved or not?  Aren't we supposed to be concerned about OUR walk with God?  I'm not talking about not caring for humanity at all but that nit-picky "s/he isn't saved" attitude that is so prevalent in the christian community when it should be all about "how am *I* doing, Lord?"


It's really not about determining whether another person is saved or not... I said this was purely a scenario. Geez! This isn't about a person or other people I'm looking at in real life. And I'm certainly not having this "nit-picky s/he isn't saved" attitude. I'm actually asking SINCERE questions here. If you really want to know why I ask these questions is for MY OWN SAKE as it pertains to knowing if I am saved based on any sin I may commit. 

It's easy for me or any Christian to be like "How am *I* doing, Lord?" and feel like everything is going good even when I'm really doing wrong. Why do we have to "shut up" when we have sincere questions about what the Bible is saying to us? That's the problem with the "church" today. Why do we have to accept "NO ONE WILL EVER STOP SINNING", but yet everyone is quick to judge someone that commits a sin they consider "big" such as fornication, adultery, murder, and the like? Are we all just gonna be living hypocrites for the rest of our lives? Huh, Volver Alma Gitana? 

That's why I asked you if you believed in Universal Salvation, that no matter how much we sin, we all gonna be saved in the end just for believing in Jesus. I don't think so. Why would God put all those verses in there about being holy, righteous, pure, and perfect?  He never said Jesus will be the only perfect sinless person in the world. Jesus just happened to be perfect and sinless because He was God in the flesh. I believe we _can be made_ perfect AFTER giving up and repenting of all sin.


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## Poohbear (Oct 22, 2010)

sopo144 said:


> We all intend to sin when we do so. Someone struggling with pornography, or cursing, or fornication, etc. may very well be sincere in their attempts to stop sinning. But that turn around will not stop overnight cold turkey. In fact, the sin you so strongly desire to stop committing may cause temptation to intensify, making it even harder to stop. I agree, true repentance means we will turn away and not do it again, but we have to be realistic in understanding that it's not something that happens once you stop praying to God about it.
> 
> This is what I mean by 'habitual sin'. It's when for instance, I continue to sin over and over and over again, with no intention on stopping or repenting. That is what 1 John 3:6 speaks on. People who "keep on sinning". Those are the ones who are do not "live in Him". That is vastly different from a Christian who sins and sincerely asks for God's forgiveness.


Okay, you just said 1 John 3:6 is talking about people who "keep on sinning"... but didn't you say in a post earlier that "it is IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANYONE TO STOP SINNING!"? Isn't that the same thing!?!?  If Christians "can't stop sinning", that means we are going to "keep on sinning". Right?


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## Poohbear (Oct 22, 2010)

Raspberry said:


> I want to reiterate that the Amplified isn't "adding" words, rather if you look at those original Greek words those meanings are more accurate a translation as our english words tend to be derivative. We all have access to the original Greek to check it for ourselves. There may have been 5 different Greek words for sin and that particular word had those particular shades of meaning.
> 
> Also, there are a ton of sins we may commit unknowingly and not habitually. I do believe that if someone is habitually fornicating and has no guilt, I have to question whether they were saved in the first place, as the Holy Spirit inside cannot tolerate that continual conscious defilement and Jesus says that if we loved God we will keep his commandments. Christians who constantly succumb to their urges tend be the most miserable of folk as their spirits will agitate the flesh and vice versa.
> 
> ...


But that's the thing too... how do you, I, or anyone else know what the correct translation of any word is?  Plus, so many people have different meanings of even the original Greek words of the Bible as well, so what gives?  

I agree with your second paragraph.

But to answer your question about whether a Christian loses their salvation whenever they sin, I've been on the fence with that issue.  I was taught to believe "once saved, always saved", but as I read the Bible, I'm starting to see fault in that doctrine. The Bible never says anyone "is saved" definitely. When the Bible talks about being saved, it always says "shall be saved". The word "shall" means "plan to, intend to, expect to, or is determined to". "Shall be saved" does not mean it has taken place or happened at that very first time of confessing with your mouth and believing with your heart. As Jeremiah 17:9 says, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"


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## fifi134 (Oct 22, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Okay, you just said 1 John 3:6 is talking about people who "keep on sinning"... but didn't you say in a post earlier that "it is IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANYONE TO STOP SINNING!"? Isn't that the same thing!?!?  If Christians "can't stop sinning", that means we are going to "keep on sinning". Right?


 
Keep in sinning in this context means habitual sin. This verse is talking about nonbelievers, that's why it says no one who lives in Him keeps on sinning.

When I said Christians can't not sin, I'm not talking about habitual sin, because Christians will indeed sin. 1 John 1:9 says "if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us".

And given the hypothetical situation you posed, I wouldn't say/not say if she's saved or not. Because Hebrews 12:1 speaks on the "sin that so easily entangles us". We each have our own sins that we struggle with. We may have sins we struggled with before we were saved, and continue to be entangled by even after salvation. We may be weak in our walks and more prone to fall into temptation, but I wouldn't be so quick to say one is not saved because of that.


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## Guitarhero (Oct 22, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> It's really not about determining whether another person is saved or not... I said this was purely a scenario. Geez! This isn't about a person or other people I'm looking at in real life. And I'm certainly not having this "nit-picky s/he isn't saved" attitude. I'm actually asking SINCERE questions here. If you really want to know why I ask these questions is for MY OWN SAKE as it pertains to knowing if I am saved based on any sin I may commit.
> 
> It's easy for me or any Christian to be like "How am *I* doing, Lord?" and feel like everything is going good even when I'm really doing wrong. Why do we have to "shut up" when we have sincere questions about what the Bible is saying to us? That's the problem with the "church" today. Why do we have to accept "NO ONE WILL EVER STOP SINNING", but yet everyone is quick to judge someone that commits a sin they consider "big" such as fornication, adultery, murder, and the like? Are we all just gonna be living hypocrites for the rest of our lives? Huh, Volver Alma Gitana?
> 
> That's why I asked you if you believed in Universal Salvation, that no matter how much we sin, we all gonna be saved in the end just for believing in Jesus. I don't think so. Why would God put all those verses in there about being holy, righteous, pure, and perfect?  He never said Jesus will be the only perfect sinless person in the world. Jesus just happened to be perfect and sinless because He was God in the flesh. I believe we _can be made_ perfect AFTER giving up and repenting of all sin.


 
Oh oh, please don't take offense.   I'm sincere.  We don't use words like "saved" or not and we don't ask others if they are "saved" or even "catholic," really.  I'm just wondering why there is so much emphasis on a state that has not yet been achieved (as in, we're not yet in heaven...and all of us are working out our salvation daily).  I realize that, here, my thoughts are often foreign.

Then, too, what tends to rub me wrong about "are you saved" is the abuse I suffered at the hands of countless well-meaning people.  I'm sure they meant well, it's just the effects of their evangelization left a very sour taste in my mouth.  Kinda like all the folks today looking at these preachers who haven fallen into the mud.  How can they tell another their religion/views/heart/etc. are wrong when they do the same or worse things?  LOL.  Don't think I'm blind...the RCC has done its fair share of you-know-what to lots of Indigenous peoples world over.  

I didn't mean to offend you...I truly wish to know.   Is it like a JW or Mormon thing where you have to go out and win converts (as someone once explained to me...for their own salvation)??  They might have been wrong about that (they were ex-JW's) so I'm not going to hold that as truth.  But ...well, why?


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## fifi134 (Oct 22, 2010)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> Can I respectfully ask WHY it's so necessary to determine whether another person is saved or not?  Aren't we supposed to be concerned about OUR walk with God?  I'm not talking about not caring for humanity at all but that nit-picky "s/he isn't saved" attitude that is so prevalent in the christian community when it should be all about "how am *I* doing, Lord?"


 
I agree with this. I struggle with this sometimes because my pride will have me forgetting where I was when God chose me. But knowing if someone is saved or not is not important in the fact that we need to continue preaching the good news to EVERYONE. Not just the nonbelievers. You'll know someone is saved by the fruit they bear.


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## Guitarhero (Oct 22, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> . I'm actually asking SINCERE questions here. If you really want to know why I ask these questions is for MY OWN SAKE as* it pertains to knowing if I am saved based on any sin I may commit. *
> 
> Why do we have to "shut up" when we have sincere questions about what the Bible is saying to us? That's the problem with the "church" today. *Why do we have to accept "NO ONE WILL EVER STOP SINNING", but yet everyone is quick to judge someone that commits a sin they consider "big" such as fornication, adultery, murder, and the like? *Are we all just gonna be living hypocrites for the rest of our lives? Huh, Volver Alma Gitana?
> 
> That's why I asked you if you believed in Universal Salvation, that no matter how much we sin, we all gonna be saved in the end just for believing in Jesus. I don't think so. *Why would God put all those verses in there about being holy, righteous, pure, and perfect?*  He never said Jesus will be the only perfect sinless person in the world. Jesus just happened to be perfect and sinless because He was God in the flesh. I believe we _can be made_ perfect AFTER giving up and repenting of all sin.


 
Don't let the devil beat you up about this.  Read those scriptures and believe on them.  We have to forgive everyone as we ask God to forgive us (for anything), even we must forgive ourselves.  There's a scripture about not being under condemnation but I can't think of where it is right now and I gotta pee lol so I'm in a hurry.

Yeah, there will be lots of hypocrites the world over, always.  But individually, that's the person I'm responsible for.  And God is a parent, He asks us to be the best we can be.  Think of a parent teaching his child...knowing that his child is going to make mistakes.  He expects the best and gives him the right direction on how to live.  He doesn't cut him out for making an error and corrects him to set him BACK on the right path.  A child who is close to his father might err, but he listens and returns. 

Well, if I'm not wrong, I think that apostatasis points to the eventual salvation of everybody, even those in hell now...?  That, at the end, all will be saved from hell and those heading to hell  on earth.  God gives choices and free will.  Not all will accept it.  

And I never would shut you up...I'm just asking the hardline questions too because if there is no inquisition, there is no attaining of further knowledge and no growth.   :hug:  And I know for certain there are those who WISH I'd shut up (bout now, they're going 'unh hunh!').


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## Vonnieluvs08 (Oct 22, 2010)

I think it goes back to what was said about repenting.  IMHO you can't say you have repented if you find yourself continuing to practice the sin.

I have a friend who is now pregnant because of fornication.  Sex was her weakness and the funny thing was when she had truly repented from it (completely turned away, stopped talking to the dude) she found out she was pregnant.  I still consider her saved before, during, and after.

God will take our sin and teach us lessons. The Lord wants our obedience and being a God of patience and grace he will allow certain things to transpire until we completely submit ourselves to him. For my friend it was to find total peace and satisfaction in Christ alone.  For an adulterous it may be the loss of family.  For me it was some medical problems.

If you have truly accepted Jesus into your life you will be transformed.  If your life isn't transformed by salvation and you show no evidence of growth (fruit) then I personally wouldn't think you were saved.  There was a time in my life when I thought I had accepted Christ but since my life remained the same and I never felt conviction by the Holy Spirit when I committed sin or in how I lived my life I knew I hadn't completely and totally accepted Jesus.

Ladies if I can say one thing---its I am very grateful for CF and the ladies who love the Lord and desire to grow in Him through the dialogs we have.  This one has been a great one to read and learn from.


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## hair_rehab (Oct 23, 2010)

I was once involved in this same behavior, only it was happening before I became a leader at my church and I knew I had to make a choice. The first scripture that I thought of was Matthew 5:29-30:

If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

She should end the relationship with her boyfriend if she continues to fall back into sin with him. It's important that we give up relationships, hobbies, lifestyles that lead us back to immorality.


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## Guitarhero (Oct 23, 2010)

Po[B said:
			
		

> ohbear;12132811]Here are some scriptures from the New Testament that stick out to me...
> 
> *"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-10*)
> 
> ...


 

To the bolded, that would nip "apostatasis" in the bud, I guess.  Right?  Tell me what you think. 

As far as there being no exceptions, one must not only understand the individual words making up the sentence, but one must comprehend the type of discourse being used (http://www.mbbc.edu/page.aspx?m=2184).  There's a deeper meaning there and you can't just always take it literally.  The scriptures are full of allegory...but exhortations as well..and what is being pointed out is that remorse of sin and continually coming back to righteousness is what makes up a believer.  It does not at all mean that, if you fall, you will go to hell.  You have to get back up again.  Forgive 70 x 7 (but that's still not literal).  

Poohbear, if we all went by your understanding of sin and mercy, none of us would ever hope to be saved because we've all sinned after receiving Christ.  Then there would be no salvation for anyone.  It's about your intent and your walk. Do you truly believe God has no experience and knowledge of the fallible  human beings He's addressing through the apostles by offering a dangling carrot  of salvation when, according to your interpretation, it's absolutely  impossible?    He loves you even more!!!  

The evidences of a believer's life  are that you are getting better and moving forward, with true remorse of heart and action.  But it cannot mean that, if you have a habitual sin or occasional sin that you are TRYING to overcome, you are doomed to death.  If you repent, He is there willing to take you back, each and every time. It's about understanding that we are not slaves to sin anymore but have a way out.  Obviously, due to a person's psychology and deep developed habits, those sins are going to be very difficult to overcome and it will take time.  Faith is the intermediate place...in Him and trusting His mercy.   People who are not remorseful _NEVER REPENT._  This is the difference.  Everyone's walk uphill has different slopes.  I truly hope and pray that you can resolve that God loves us all and never wants to see any of us perish.  You're like a little sister to me...and I have been there...influenced by an organization which I won't name that nearly destroyed all my peace in life. I was literally afraid to live because I knew I would sin.  I still sin, but I know where to go to be absolved.  I still cry when I am wrong...but that's because there is remorse and seeking of forgiveness.  You will definitely walk this life of falling down your entire time on this earth.  Whether or not you get back up again is the question.  That's my motto in life.


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## Guitarhero (Oct 23, 2010)

Geez Louise...another glitch...sorry


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## Poohbear (Oct 24, 2010)

@ Vovler Alma Gitana, thank you for clarifying with me.

@ Vonnieluvs, good post. Thank you for contributing to the thread.


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## Crown (Oct 25, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> *All sins that you KNOW for a fact are wrong are done intentionally and willfully. There's no way around it.*  Like this scenario, this girl knows that fornication is wrong and has read it in her Bible, but yet, still commits the sin because she enjoys it, but yet, feels bad about it ONLY because the Bible says it's wrong. So she is a born-again saved Christian because she feels bad about it only because it's wrong according to the Bible?


 We all agree with : faith/fruits, sinless/sin-no-more, remorse, repentance, forgiveness, righteousness, holiness… TIME is also an important factor.

I consider the believer like an empire with kingdoms (habits/sins). When we come to the Messiah, the transformation begins; it’s not magic, the work needs time to be done, steps by steps, battle after battle, to put all the kingdoms down, and all the empire under the control of the Holy Spirit.

Look at the story : David/Bathsheba.

# 1 : Lust : 2Sam. 11: 2-3
# 2 : Adultery : 2Sam. 11 : 4
# 3 : Hypocrisy and Lie : 2Sam. 2Sam. 11 : 5-13
# 4 : Treason and Murder : 2Sam. 11 14-24

Remorse and repentance : NO!
2Sam. 11.25 Then David said unto the messenger, Thus shalt thou say unto Joab, *Let not this thing displease thee, for the sword devoureth one as well as another: make thy battle more strong against the city, and overthrow it: and encourage thou him.* 
God sent Nathan to David : 2Sam. 12 : 1-4
Nathan tells a story about a man.

David’s anger against the other man : 2Sam. 12 : 5-6

 Revelation : *And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man* : 2Sam. 12 : 7-12
 
Repentance : finally!
2Sam. 12.13 *And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD*. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. 12.14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

Time frame? No clear indication.
Minimum : the time to deliver the baby.
[FONT=&quot]Maximum : it is said a child.

[FONT=&quot]Ps. [/FONT]19.12 …cleanse thou me from secret faults.[/FONT]


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## Crown (Oct 25, 2010)

Sin is sin, whatever the sin. For some people, the sin is more evident, for example fornication; but for some, it can be lust or hate or lie…
Some people are stronger than others in one area. For some, 1 fall is enough.
Some need more time to fight the flesh, we need to keep fighting again and again till the victory. But, I believe in the victory.
Sometimes, the mooooooore time reflects the lack of connection through prayer, Bible reading…

I mostly agree with Poohbear. The purpose is not : God knows my heart, I am just a human and I will sin anyway, but He knows that I love Him and I will repent and I am sure He will forgive me.
The purpose is : sin no more!


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## Rainbow Dash (Oct 27, 2010)

The points made in this thread have been great. It is awesome when we can come together and discuss the scripture.
Ephesians 5 really stuck out to me as I was reading it this morning.  *Paul was speaking to the Christians concerning walking in darkness. *I understand that we fall and need forgiveness daily, but we are not to willfully practice sin. Im not saying the person is not saved but the word warns us about being entangled in sin. Sin is not something to play with, there are consequences to sin, you can develop strongholds and become a slave to it. She has become entangled and a slave to it. The word is clear though. I believe that this puts her salvation in jeporady and I would not want to be in that. She needs to run and run fast. 
The word tells us the He will come as a thief, no one knows the time.   

Ephesians 5:2-7

 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.

*3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.*
*5 For this you know,[a] that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.*


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## Shimmie (Oct 27, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> I agree that she should step down from teaching, but how can ANY "Christian" teach against sin if you believe all true Christians sin and still sin as long as they live? No one is really practicing what they are teaching/preaching. What's the use if we all still gonna sin anyway?
> 
> Getting pregnant or getting caught sleeping with her boyfriend is more of a concern for how she looks to other people and to the world... Shouldn't the concern be about what God sees, thinks, and knows, and not the world?



I'm sorry for not responding sooner the site was running slow for a while.  :Rose:  

You have an extremely valid question.  I say extremely because we need answers that make sense. 

When we read the accounts of the leaders in the Bible, God points our their attributes.  There are some people who sin who have no intention of being repentive. 

lucifer is the perfect example.  He was the leader of the angels and yet he became rebellious; knowing full well who God is, he still sinned against God with absolutely no intent of repenting, for his goal was to take over and de-throne the Lord God Almighty. 

Cain was a 'child of God' yet he committed murder and without repentance or remorse.   His reaction was leaving his brother 'hidden' and dead and lied to God when he was asked where was Abel.  Cain's reply, "Am I my brother's keeper?" {In other words, his response to God was, "...what are you asking me for, I never saw him."

We all know the story of Jonah which is a great example of the 'girl' of this thread topic. 

Here's a reflection: 

God gave Jonah a command.  He disobeyed God, went his own way, to do his own thing.  There was a drastic consequence.  Jonah was cast out from among those he sought refuge [he was kicked off their ship) and he was imprisoned in the belly of the whale, until he repented.  Upon repentance from his disobedience, he was given back his leadership. 

NOW... back to the person in your topic...  

Here's a woman, called of God to live a 'pure' life and to lead in Ministry (Children's Ministry).  She strays into sexual sin; she does not repent; there is a consequence; _and_ until repentance, she will remain in the consequence until she is out of the sin. 

More than likely, and I'm telling you what I know, that I know, that I know, to be true.   More than likely, 99% of the women who enter into  sexual sin, get dumped by the man.  I've seen it way too many times.  Just take my word for it.  They get dumped; just like the people dumped Jonah off of their boat. 

Their heart gets broken, some end up with a baby [or two or three], or they spend their time and money playing 'house' for a man who never respected them enough to love and marry them. These precious hearts watch the man leave and end up with someone else.   

Okay... I'll be fair here,  maybe not 99%   .... as I stated above.

The thing is one is reaping what one sows, and the one you sin with will more than likely 'sin' against you.  [_'You'_ is used is _'general'_ sense, not anyone personally :Rose: ]. 

Now here is what God is looking for... Those who know when it's wrong and choose not to do it and should they 'fall', they are quick to get it right and they mean it; they are not playing mercy games with God.    They are not taking God's mercies for granted.  They don't put themselves in a posture of sin or a mind that is bent towards a weakness and not bent towards obedience.   

King Saul was weak and could not be trusted to lead.

King David was weaken and was immediately convicted when he was confronted and his repentance was pure and sincere.  But his repentance was not without consequence.  

The woman in this thread topic has a weakness un-submitted and therefore unconquered.  The sin has control over her, not her having control over the sin. She is unable to stand and therefore unable to lead.  I hope this makes sense.  We can't afford weak leaders, it leads to disaster. For as long as a leader is weak, satan is able to throw one pebble after another in their path which will continue to trip them up.  When a leader falls, it becomes a disaster and a setback in one's spiritual battle.  

Here's a question:     Would any of us continue to ride with a Driver who continues to disobey the laws of the road?  If he was an alcoholic, unable to resist taking a drink here and there, would we allow him to continue to be the Driver of the buses, trains, airplanes, etc.?   That's the message.  One who is unable to stand strong, cannot lead us.

Hope this makes some sense.  I'm better at this with my children and my little students in Sunday school.  They have better examples than I do.    They know, 'don't light a match, cause the flame may be small it doesn't take long for it to grow tall."  Stay away from fire.


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## Renovating (Oct 27, 2010)

Crown said:


> *Sin is sin, whatever the sin. For some people, the sin is more evident, for example fornication; but for some, it can be lust or hate or lie…
> Some people are stronger than others in one area. For some, 1 fall is enough.
> Some need more time to fight the flesh, we need to keep fighting again and again till the victory. *But, I believe in the victory.
> Sometimes, the mooooooore time reflects the lack of connection through prayer, Bible reading…
> ...


 
While I understand that the purpose is not to abuse God's grace and sin freely, without a conscious; there is still so much that become unclear to me. ( I say become unclear because the more I study and seek an understanding of the Word, things that I was once so certain of no longer make sense to me.)

I completely agree with the first part (in blue) of your post. According to the bible,  a sin hierarchy does not exist and in God's eyes sin is sin. Sinful thoughts=sinful feelings= sinful actions

However, I cannot imagine every initial thought, feeling, and action I have/do being pure and holy _initially_. I understand that we have the power to bring impure thoughts, actions, and feelings under subjection AFTER we initially think, do, or feel them, but I do not see how after a certain point in your relationship with Christ you can begin having only pure thoughts, actions, and feelings.  Although, the lady mentioned in the op may overcome her struggle with fornication, it doesn't mean that she will no longer commit any type of sinful action, or have anymore sinful thoughts and feelings for the rest of her life. From the outside looking in, we may never know if she sins again. Isn't it a matter of the heart?  In most cases, you can not determine the meditation of someone's heart from the surface ( not until it manifests through an action).

It is even more perplexing to me that we are thought of as inheriting a sinful nature from Adam, but are still considered to have free will. Is it a limited free will, since we cannot choose our nature? Aren't our actions directly proportional to our nature? I would have liked to have used my free will to choose a pure nature.  

Romans 7:14-25 
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 

 21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! 
      So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.



***** I'm sorry if I went too far off topic. If anyone can explain my questions, I would greatly appreciate it. I've debated posting in this thread because I do not want to offend anyone. I am only seeking understanding.erplexed


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## Guitarhero (Oct 28, 2010)

authenticitymanifesting said:


> I completely agree with the first part (in blue) of your post. *According to the bible,  a sin hierarchy does not exist and in God's eyes sin is sin*. Sinful thoughts=sinful feelings= sinful actions



I'd like to address this part of your question.  There are more sins than those delineated in the Decalogue or 10 Commandments but G-d made sure to alert us to the severity of these sins.  There is no "hierarchy" of allowable sins...but there is certainly a severity and seriousness of certain sins, some of which lead to death.  That means those sins that are not done by accident - thus, mortal sins that remove salvific grace.  You have to have full conscious that these are 1)grave sins and 2)that you committed them with full knowledge.  Whether you die with them or not depends upon repentance.

16If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. (1 Jno. 5:16,17)

Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned" (John 15:6).

Remaining means repentance and one can read into that that people will fail at times.  The incentive to remain is the latter part of that verse because no one wants to go to the fire.  And if one fails, to remain means to get back up again.


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## Guitarhero (Oct 28, 2010)

Shimmie said:


> For as long as a leader is weak, satan is able to throw one pebble after another in their path which will continue to trip them up.  When a leader falls, it becomes a disaster and a setback in one's spiritual battle.
> 
> Here's a question:     Would any of us continue to ride with a Driver who continues to disobey the laws of the road?  If he was an alcoholic, unable to resist taking a drink here and there, would we allow him to continue to be the Driver of the buses, trains, airplanes, etc.?   That's the message.  One who is unable to stand strong, cannot lead us.
> 
> Hope this makes some sense.  I'm better at this with my children and my little students in Sunday school.  They have better examples than I do.    They know, 'don't light a match, cause the flame may be small it doesn't take long for it to grow tall."  Stay away from fire.



I agree with this wholeheartedly regarding leadership.  Individually, based upon psychology of the person, habit and nature of the sin (ex., sexual that is so physical and chemical), people take the risk, driving while drunk.  It's like Russian Roulette.


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## Poohbear (Oct 28, 2010)

*hair_rehab*
thanks for your post. This is really why I created this thread and used fornication as an example. I know many woman are either involved in fornication or used to be involved in fornication.  The Scripture you mentioned from Matthew also stuck out to me when studying the Bible about sin in general. From a literal sense, in order to sin, it does start with some part of your body, mainly your eyes. I'm sure there are blind people that commit sins, but when you can actually see what's going on, it's easier to fall into sin. And here's another issue with some people... even after a woman or man ends a relationship with their partner, she or he may fall back into sexual sin with either their ex or a different person. 

*Crown*
You did a nice job laying out David's pattern of sin and how he finally came to repentance.  People are quick to "take up" for sin by saying "David was a man after God's own heart and he sinned with Bathsheba" without realizing the key word "sinned"...not continually sinning.

I really feel like some of us take repentance very lightly because of the mainstream teaching of "once saved, always saved" and "past, present, AND future sins are forgiven" which will allow some Christians to indirectly think they have a license to sin, even though they KNOW sin is wrong and against God. It just makes them somewhat unconscious to sinful actions, especially if they are not experiencing consequences right away.  I also think it is important that one has a Godly sorrow rather than a worldly sorrow for their sinful actions. They change because they want to please and live for God, not because of the consequences that they may suffer in the world.  For instance, a thief should feel bad for stealing even before or if he never gets caught stealing.

And I agree with what you said here: "The purpose is not : God knows my heart, I am just a human and I will sin anyway, but He knows that I love Him and I will repent and I am sure He will forgive me. The purpose is : sin no more!" Those verses where Jesus instructs to "sin no more" are hardly ever taught nor emphasized in the "church".

*Health&hair28*
Yes, it is good to be able to discuss scripture. The Scripture you mention in Ephesians also replays in my mind as I read the Bible.  For example, verse 3 mentions foolish talking and coarse jesting... I know I have done that and still do, and I can see how it is not fitting for a saint of God to do.  I know when I have read that verse in the past, I would look at it like "it's no big deal to joke around...it's all in the fun", but it's not something God wants us to do. I noticed as I read a Scripture more than once and reflect on it, I start to think about how I know there was a time when I never talked foolishly, used profanity, or joked around...and that was when I was much younger, a little girl. Just me personally, I think I said my first curse word when I was in college or so. And I know I can stop using curse words in a joking way if I put my mind to it with the help of God. I think a lot of it has to do with getting rid of that "spirit" that causes the sin of speech and actually walking with the Holy Spirit. We cannot continue to walk in darkness after the light has been revealed to us.

*Shimmie*
Thank you for sharing your examples! And yes, your post made sense... just pretend that I am like one of those little children in your Sunday school class.  

And you posted some good questions for thought about whether or not someone would continue to ride with a person who continually broke the laws of the road... The answer that most people would give is most likely NO because of the danger and risks (getting arrested, going to jail, paying money, injury, or death)! And this goes the same with sin... we put our souls in danger and risk of salvation.

*authenticitymanifesting*
You're right, there is no sin hierarchy. And what you said here: "I say become unclear because the more I study and seek an understanding of the Word, things that I was once so certain of no longer make sense to me" is what I am experiencing too.  I still wonder about sinful thoughts and feelings as well and if we can ever live without having sinful thoughts and feelings. I ask myself _Is it possible to have good and pure thoughts all the time? And what constitutes a sinful thought and feeling? Are they really sins or does it depend on the nature of the thought and feeling? Better yet, how can we know specifically? Is it based on what God reveals to each individual person?_ I could go on with these questions. Lol!

For example: I know anger is a feeling that is often debated about. Some say it is a sin to be angry, and some say it's not a sin to be angry, as long as you do not act on that anger as in killing someone or seeking revenge or doing something evil to that person that you are angry with. All I know is that the Bible says in Ephesians 4:26 "Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath..." To me, it is saying while you are angry do not sin, in other words, being angry isn't necessarily a sin. God is just telling us do not sin, let not the sun go down upon your wrath (which I think means do not dwell/continue in your anger/wrath). I do feel like sinful thoughts and feelings can lead to or cause someone to sin. I think that is why the Bible says we must be "bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ" in 2 Corinthians 10:5.

And about your free will question... while we may have inherited sin from Adam, it does not mean we are Adam, so therefore, every one has their own free will so-to-speak, even though God is still completely sovereign. I believe we can use our free will to choose a pure nature. I think we can achieve that by delighting in the Lord and constantly reading His Word and letting God speak to us through His Word and actually internalizing His Word in our hearts and minds so we can have victory over sin.


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## Crown (Oct 28, 2010)

authenticitymanifesting said:


> However, I cannot imagine every initial thought, feeling, and action I have/do being pure and holy _initially_. I understand that we have the power to bring impure thoughts, actions, and feelings under subjection AFTER we initially think, do, or feel them, but I do not see how after a certain point in your relationship with Christ you can begin having only pure thoughts, actions, and feelings.  Although, the lady mentioned in the op may overcome her struggle with fornication, it doesn't mean that she will no longer commit any type of sinful action, or have anymore sinful thoughts and feelings for the rest of her life. From the outside looking in, we may never know if she sins again. *Isn't it a matter of the heart?*  In most cases, you can not determine the meditation of someone's heart from the surface ( not until it manifests through an action).



We are leaving in a deceptive and deluded world. Some people believe we have just to say _ I believe_ and your salvation is sealed whatever your actions. But the Bible said : you believe? Great! Bear fruits!!! It’s not an easy thing to follow the Messiah, each believer has to take a cross and sometimes the cost is very expensive, this walk cost you your old nature and its painful like an eagle soaring (but the result, the new you with the Holy Spirit, is great); this walk can cost you, for example, a job, a dear one, and even your life. The Savior said that all whose saying Lord, Lord will not enter into His kingdom. Don’t forget the parable of talents or the ten virgins (5 are virgins like the 5 others, but have not enough oil to enter)… It is serious!

*Isn't it a matter of the heart?* Yes it is! Jesus said :
Mat. 15.18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 15.19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies...

Stop sinning in an obvious way (outside) is half the victory, but not enough. It’s important, because you are not sinning against someone else, no possibility for offences (Mat. 18 : 7). Non believers can do it, it is called good man (or woman).
Gen. 4.7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

But the real challenge is the inside because GOD looks at the heart and it is the most important. When you stop sinning inside, you stop sinning outside : this is the victory and you can’t do it by yourself, not with the flesh.
Is it possible to have the victory? Yes!
With the Spirit of Christ AND obedience (the free will to choose to put your will/thoughts under the control of the Holy Spirit). But when you are filling a container with different areas/sections, you have to empty/clean each section before filling this section and do it to full capacity : sin no more!

[FONT=&quot]That makes the difference : choosing between good and evil (outside), or choosing LIFE (inside) and be able to do good (outside). It’s a journey![/FONT]


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## Crown (Oct 28, 2010)

authenticitymanifesting said:


> It is even more perplexing to me that we are thought of as inheriting a sinful nature from Adam, but are still considered to have free will. Is it a limited free will, since we cannot choose our nature? Aren't our actions directly proportional to our nature?


Don’t forget we’ve been made to be priests, worshippers, princes to rule the earth.
Freewill is the capacity to make choice as sons and daughters of GOD, different for the animals.
Adam had free will, but Adam did not choose his nature, it’s the same for us.
The challenge were/is this : 
*Don’t rely on you (your nature), choose LIFE, lean on ME (and you will have all).
*The choice : I choose (prefer) knowledge for good and evil (by myself)!
*Fall and corruption of the flesh.
*Bridge : Messiah
*Don’t rely on you (your nature), choose LIFE, lean on ME (and you will have all but with pain to breakdown the sinful nature).

If someone chooses to become a soldier, what would he do?
Acknowledge the call, believe in the army, register, believe that he can be a good soldier, know the rules, practice to be in better shape as possible and to become one in his mind with the system, obey, fight, do nothing that might tarnish what he is representing (do good as a soldier), talk to others about the organization, put his trust in his superior.
Do the same as a follower of the Messiah : the soldier is you (disciples), the army is the Kingdom of the Most High, the rules are the Word of God, Christ, testified in the Bible,  the Superior is the Holy Spirit.
The Bible is also a testimony of these men and women who made this choice. It is not impossible :
Lu. 11.13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?




authenticitymanifesting said:


> I would have liked to have used my free will to choose a pure nature.



I think your desire is pure metaphysics!
Free will comes after conscience, and conscience comes after nature.
Gen. 2.7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

ETA : (A little confusing!) What I mean, you could not use your free will to choose to born with a pure nature. But, you can choose to put your free will, right now, under the control and the power of the Holy Spirit and have a pure nature because of HIM.


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## LoveisYou (Feb 4, 2011)

Yes, but I would STRONGLY advise against it. I used to be that person and it opened the door to many other sins in my life. In addition, I felt so guilty and unworthy of His grace that I completely got off the Christian path for years. One sin led to another that led to another until one day I couldn't call myself saved anymore. But thank God for Jesus, because recently I re-dedicated my life to Christ. The soul ties prayer posted in this forum was right on time for me.


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## BeautifulFlower (Feb 4, 2011)

I used to be that girl and I will definitely tell you this...its almost impossible to maintain the same level of communion with God when you are fornicator. You may be able to put up a good front for others but when its just you and God in your room alone at night, your prayer life is not the same. You keep sinning but your lifeline to the Father is corrupt. 

But yes, I was still saved (have salvation and not going to hell) but my life was not transformed. I was living in my sin and ignoring as much of the Word as I could to avoid confronting my issues. 

But if you belong to the Lord he will encompass you and bring you back home and welcome you with open arms.


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## crwnandglory (Feb 4, 2011)

I am saved.  

This week I have probably caused tension with another person, acted arrogantly by trusting my wisdom over God's, or thought too highly of another person.  I know for a fact that I have replayed, imagined, repeated and said things that are not pleasing to God just in the past 10 minutes.  Every act that I listed above is evidence of my sinful nature (Galatians 5:19).  Evidence that my flesh still lives and sometimes I fall victim to it.  However, it is no match for the grace and mercy of God and the power of prayer and repentance.  

I sin and yet I am still saved just like the sister in the example.

To me sin is separation from God and His will, it does not matter if that takes form in idolatry or fornication.  Most people would not question the salvation of a person that had a fit of rage after a provoking experience or looked longingly at the woman across the street with the pair of boots that she has been saving for and yet they are both acts of a sinful nature.  Sin is sin.  All of our "holiness" is like a filthy rag to God.  That is why we should be quick to praise Him and repent, we need His mercy and grace even when we think we are doing "good."

God is the only one that can save and therefore the only one who can judge (James 4:12).


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## BeautifulFlower (Feb 7, 2011)

This is so true. 

I am reminded of the story of King David and Bathsheba. When the Lord reprimended him through the prophet Nathan, the Lord repeated twice "you have depised me". Sure he called out his sin but it was less about the actually act and more about the turning away from his commands in selfish pursuit of his desires. Pride is always the root of sin, always. So yes sin is sin and its all deserving of death.




crwnandglory said:


> I am saved.
> 
> This week I have probably caused tension with another person, acted arrogantly by trusting my wisdom over God's, or thought too highly of another person. I know for a fact that I have replayed, imagined, repeated and said things that are not pleasing to God just in the past 10 minutes. Every act that I listed above is evidence of my sinful nature (Galatians 5:19). Evidence that my flesh still lives and sometimes I fall victim to it. However, it is no match for the grace and mercy of God and the power of prayer and repentance.
> 
> ...


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## nathansgirl1908 (Feb 8, 2011)

Poohbear said:


> It's really not about determining whether another person is saved or not... I said this was purely a scenario. Geez! This isn't about a person or other people I'm looking at in real life. And I'm certainly not having this "nit-picky s/he isn't saved" attitude. I'm actually asking SINCERE questions here. If you really want to know why I ask these questions is for MY OWN SAKE as it pertains to knowing if I am saved based on any sin I may commit.
> 
> It's easy for me or any Christian to be like "How am *I* doing, Lord?" and feel like everything is going good even when I'm really doing wrong. Why do we have to "shut up" when we have sincere questions about what the Bible is saying to us? That's the problem with the "church" today. Why do we have to accept "NO ONE WILL EVER STOP SINNING", but yet everyone is quick to judge someone that commits a sin they consider "big" such as fornication, adultery, murder, and the like? Are we all just gonna be living hypocrites for the rest of our lives? Huh, Volver Alma Gitana?
> 
> That's why I asked you if you believed in Universal Salvation, that no matter how much we sin, we all gonna be saved in the end just for believing in Jesus. I don't think so. Why would God put all those verses in there about being holy, righteous, pure, and perfect?  He never said Jesus will be the only perfect sinless person in the world. Jesus just happened to be perfect and sinless because He was God in the flesh. I believe we _can be made_ perfect AFTER giving up and repenting of all sin.



I believe we can only be made perfect after death.  And I honestly don't understand why this question keeps coming up.  Really reading the Word and taking it all together, synthesis basically, gives the answers to your questions.   you should NOT continue in the same sin.  And I don't think the Bible actually sad that we will all be saved just for believing in God.  There is much more to it than that.

I genuinely wonder if your confusion comes from listening to others instead of gleaning your own understanding.  You have said numerous times that you read the Bible, but if you read it, then why are you having such a hard time finding the answers? And why aren't you praying to God for discernment and understanding on this stuff?  I just don't get it.   NO ONE will ever get clarification on these issues until they seek Him and His Word, clearing their minds of what others have to say.

I also think it is unsafe and unwise to try to use others to figure out where you stand with God.


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## LilMissSunshine5 (Feb 20, 2011)

John 3:16- For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.  

That is case closed for me.  God will judge people's hearts. That is not my job. I have enough work to do in myself than to worry about who is saved and who isn't.  I believe in the saving power of the blood of Jesus and that is enough to save me! No footnotes or addendums.  I can't lose my salvation because I didn't earn it. God gave it to me as a gift and because of His grace and mercy, He saved me anyway.  The guidelines He gives us (His Word) are so we can develop a deep relationship with Him because God knows sin damages our ability to communicate with Him. I accepted Jesus in my heart when I was 6, but at 30, my life is showing so much more fruit than it used to.  Does that mean I wasn't saved during those years that I wasn't growing? No, it means that my relationship with God is currently prospering unlike before when it wasn't. I was always saved, but salvation is just the BEGINNING of the Christian journey...I want to serve him wholeheartedly, become the woman He designed me to be and make my Heavenly Father proud! I was a spiritual baby before, but I got tired of milk  I wanted solid foods and meat! Now that I am spending time with Him, reading His word, fasting and tithing, I am growing so fast. Some people stay an infant in Jesus forever, but He desires for us to learn and grow, use our talents and bear greater fruit when we abide in Him.


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## Poohbear (Feb 20, 2011)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> I believe we can only be made perfect after death.  And I honestly don't understand why this question keeps coming up.  Really reading the Word and taking it all together, synthesis basically, gives the answers to your questions.   *you should NOT continue in the same sin.  And I don't think the Bible actually sad that we will all be saved just for believing in God.  There is much more to it than that.*


I agree with the *bolded*, but who are the ones that will be made perfect after death? Will it be everyone (believers and nonbelievers) since no one is perfect? Not only does the bible say unbelievers will not inherit the kingdom of God and be thrown in the lake of fire, but also it mentions others too (whoremongers, liars, etc).



> I genuinely wonder if your confusion comes from listening to others instead of gleaning your own understanding.  You have said numerous times that you read the Bible, but if you read it, then why are you having such a hard time finding the answers? And why aren't you praying to God for discernment and understanding on this stuff?  I just don't get it.   NO ONE will ever get clarification on these issues until they seek Him and His Word, clearing their minds of what others have to say.
> 
> I also think it is unsafe and unwise to try to use others to figure out where you stand with God.



I believe my confusion comes from alot of sources, both reading and listening to what others say AND reading the bible for myself and seeking God and His Word for myself.  I'm having a hard time finding answers probably because none of the answers I have gotten make sense.  I can pray to God for discernment and understanding all I want, but that still does not resolve the confusion that goes on in my mind. I think it is I want to know so much that I'm coming to the point where I should just chalk it up and realize I will not find all the answers while here on this Earth. I don't think anyone has a clear perfect clarification on these issues of faith and religion no matter how much they have sought Him and His Word, even with clearing their minds with what others have to say. 

And I'm not using others to figure out where I stand with God... that's ridiculous. I'm just asking others about their beliefs, views, and opinions on different issues when it comes to the Bible and Christianity. Nothing more.


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## anartist4u2001 (Feb 20, 2011)

she hasn't turned her back on God. does she want to get better? it's an everyday struggle. we just have to keep comin' closer to God and he will change our thinking. 

also, i think God uses whomever he pleases to do his will. i mean if everyone stepped down from teaching the word of God because of sin, then shoot nobody would teaching because everybody is strugglin' with somethin'. nobody would witnesses, nobody would be doin' mission work and so forth. 

Jesus knew that Peter would deny him 3 times, but he still told him to preach the gospel. he was prejuidice, but he still preached. he learned better though.


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## CoilyFields (Feb 21, 2011)

1. Ephesians 2:8-9 explains that we have achieved salvation by Gods grace through our faith. Not by works so that no one can boast. 
So if we can't do enough good works to earn our way into heaven, conversly we can't do anything bad enough to revoke Gods promise.  His grace offered it and our faith led us to accept it. The end.
We should still strive to live a holy life but the Bible says even our righteousness is as filthy rags (compared to a perfect God). Our good works (including not sinning ) is for our relationship with God and so that others see our good works and praise God.

2. The Bible talks about many folks not inheriting the kingdom of heaven/God. There are two meanings to this phrase. One refers to heaven the place God dwells. The other refers to the kingdom of heaven inside each believer. Romans 14:17 explains that kingdom is righteousness, peace, and joy in the holy ghost. So it is possible for your sins to effect these areas. Your unrighteous acts affect your relationship with God, you won't have peace with others, and you will not have joy...the kingdom of God on the inside of us while on earth...not our eternal status.

3. If whenever we sin we had to get saved all over again then the blood of Christ would be ineffective. The priests used to have to constantly go before God offering burnt sacrifices for the people (under the law) because that sacrifice was only good for that one sin, they continually stood before God. But the reason Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice was because he, the high priest, the sacrificial lamb, only had to die once for all. Past present and future sins. And when he was done the bible said he sat down! Cuz the work was done and he now sits making intercession for us (asking Gods grace on our behalf). (This leads to pauls plea for us not to sin haphazardly just because grace is abounding) 

So a Christian that is overtaken in a fault must confess and ask for forgiveness.  and then do the WORK it takes to not repeat it. I.e. maybe she shouldn't have a boyfriend...duh. stop clearing a path to sin. If I keep maxing out my credit cards and can't seem to stop then I need to get rid of them altogether. Seems drastic but you will do what you need to for those things you find important.  

Sent from my Zio using Long Hair Care Forum App


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## LilMissSunshine5 (Feb 21, 2011)

^^^ I totally agree!


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## makeupgirl (Feb 21, 2011)

Here is something from gotquestions.com about being saved and sin

*Question: "If I am saved and all of my sins are forgiven, why not continue to sin?"

Answer: *The apostle Paul answered a very similar question in Romans 6:1-2, “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?” The idea that a person could “trust in Jesus Christ” for salvation and then go on living just as he/she lived before, is absolutely foreign to the Bible. Believers in Christ are new creations (2 Corinthians 5:17). The Holy Spirit changes us from producing the acts of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21) to producing the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23). The Christian life is a changed life because the Christian is changed.

What differentiates Christianity from every other religion is that Christianity is based on what God has done for us through Jesus Christ—divine accomplishment. Every other world religion is based on what we must do to earn God's favor and forgiveness—human achievement. Every other religion teaches that we must do certain things and stop doing certain other things in order to earn God's love and mercy. Christianity, faith in Christ, teaches that we do certain things and stop doing certain things because of what Christ has done for us.

How could anyone, having been delivered from sin's penalty, eternity in hell, go back to living the same life that had him on the path to hell in the first place? How could anyone, having been cleansed from the defilement of sin, desire to go back to the same cesspool of depravity? How could anyone, knowing what Jesus Christ did on our behalf, go on living as if He were not important? How could anyone, realizing how much Christ suffered for our sins, continue sinning as if those sufferings were meaningless?

Romans 6:11-15 declares, “In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!”

For the truly converted, then, continuing to live sinfully is not an option. Because our conversion resulted in a completely new nature, our desire is to no longer live in sin. Yes, we still sin, but instead of wallowing in it as we once did, we now hate it and wish to be delivered from it. The idea of “taking advantage” of Christ’s sacrifice on our behalf by continuing to live sinfully is unthinkable. If a person believes himself to be a Christian and still desires to live the old, sinful life, he has reason to doubt his salvation. “Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?” (2 Corinthians 13:5).

*Question: "Do we sin daily? Is it possible to go an entire day without sinning?"

Answer: *While there is not a Bible verse that specifically states we commit a sinful act each day, we do have verses that remind us that we have inherited the capacity to sin at any moment. "Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned" (Romans 5:12). "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (Psalm 51:5). In addition, we have commands that we know we never keep, much less on a daily basis. For instance, who can claim to love God with all his heart, mind and soul every moment of every day? No one. Yet, that is the greatest commandment (Matthew 22:36-38). Failing to love God completely at all times is a daily sin for all Christians.

We also have a verse that warns us of the deceitfulness of our old sinful nature, which in a sense is warning us of the potential, if not the likelihood, of daily sin. "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9). Even the apostle Paul was frustrated with his own battle against indwelling sin. "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members" (Romans 7:22-23). This capacity to sin led him to cry in desperation, “What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?” (Romans 7:24).

Solomon knew full well that he and all men not only have the potential for sin, but that we all exercise that capacity routinely. As he stated in his prayer at the dedication of the temple, "If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not)" (1 Kings 8:46). And Solomon spoke of it again in the book of Ecclesiastes: "For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not" (Ecclesiastes 7:20). Again, while these verses do not unequivocally indicate daily sin, they certainly warn us against the pride of saying at any moment that we have no sin.

The good news is that we will not have to strive forever against daily sin. One day we will be in heaven with our Savior and will be freed from the presence and power of sin, just as we have already been freed from its penalty.


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## makeupgirl (Feb 21, 2011)

*Question: "Do Christians have to keep asking for forgiveness for their sins?"*

*Answer: *A frequent question is “what happens if I sin, and then I die before I have an opportunity to confess that sin to God?” Another common question is “what happens if I commit a sin, but then forget about it and never remember to confess it to God?” Both of these questions rest on a faulty assumption. Salvation is not a matter of believers trying to confess and repent from every sin they commit before they die. Salvation is not based on whether a Christian has confessed and repented of every sin. Yes, we should confess our sins to God as soon as we are aware that we have sinned. However, we do not always need to be asking God for forgiveness. When we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, all of our sins are forgiven. That includes past, present, and future, big or small. Believers do not have to keep asking for forgiveness or repenting in order to have their sins forgiven. Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins, and when they are forgiven, they are all forgiven (Colossians 1:14; Acts 10:43).

What we are to do is confess our sins: “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). What this verse tells us to do is “confess” our sins to God. The word “confess” means “to agree with.” When we confess our sins to God, we are agreeing with God that we were wrong, that we have sinned. God forgives us, through confession, on an ongoing basis because of the fact that He is “faithful and just.” How is God “faithful and just”? He is faithful by forgiving sins, which He has promised to do for all those who receive Christ as Savior. He is just by applying Christ’s payment for our sins, recognizing that the sins have indeed been atoned for.

At the same time, 1 John 1:9 does indicate that somehow forgiveness is dependent on our confessing our sins to God. How does this work if all of our sins are forgiven the moment we receive Christ as Savior? It seems that what the apostle John is describing here is “relational” forgiveness. All of our sins are forgiven “positionally” the moment we receive Christ as Savior. This positional forgiveness guarantees our salvation and promise of an eternal home in heaven. When we stand before God after death, God will not deny us entrance into heaven because of our sins. That is positional forgiveness. The concept of relational forgiveness is based on the fact that when we sin, we offend God and grieve His Spirit (Ephesians 4:30). While God has ultimately forgiven us of the sins we commit, they still result in a blocking or hindrance in our relationship with God. A young boy who sins against his father is not cast out of the family. A godly father will forgive his children unconditionally. At the same time, a good relationship between father and son cannot be achieved until the relationship is restored. This can only occur when a child confesses his mistakes to his father and apologizes. That is why we confess our sins to God—not to maintain our salvation, but to bring ourselves back into close fellowship with the God who loves us and has already forgiven us.


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## makeupgirl (Feb 21, 2011)

Question: "Will God continue to forgive you if you commit the same sin over and over again?"



Answer: To best answer this question, we’re going to look at two powerful passages of Scripture. The first is found in the book of Psalms: “As far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us” (Psalm 103:12). One of the most effective tricks Satan plays on Christians is to convince us that our sins aren't really forgiven, despite the promise of God's Word. If we've truly received Jesus as Savior by faith, and still have that uneasy feeling wondering whether or not there is true forgiveness, that may be coming from demonic influences. Demons hate it when people are delivered from their grasp, and they try to plant seeds of doubt in our minds about the reality of our salvation. In his vast arsenal of tricks, one of Satan’s biggest tools is to constantly remind us of our past transgressions, and he uses those to prove that God couldn't possibly forgive or restore us. The devil's attacks make it a real challenge for us to simply rest in the promises of God and trust His love.



But this psalm also tells us that God not only forgives our sins, but removes them completely from His presence. This is a profound thing! Without question, this is a very difficult concept for humans to grasp, which is why it's so easy for us to worry and wonder about forgiveness instead of just accepting it. The key lies in simply giving up our doubts and our feelings of guilt and resting in His promises of forgiveness. 



Another passage is 1 John 1:9, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.” What an incredible promise! God forgives His children when they sin if only they come to Him and in an attitude of repentance and ask to be forgiven. God’s grace is so great that it can cleanse the sinner from his sin so that he becomes a child of God, and, correspondingly, it is so great that even when we stumble, we can be forgiven still. 



In Matthew 18:21-22, we read, "Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, ‘Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?’ Jesus answered, ‘I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.’” Peter was probably thinking that he was being generous. Rather than repay a person who had committed a sin against him with equal retribution, Peter suggested giving the brother some leeway, say, up to seven times. But the eighth time, forgiveness and grace would run out. But Christ challenged the rules of Peter’s suggested economy of grace by saying that forgiveness is infinite for those who are truly seeking it. This is only possible because of the infinite grace of God which is made possible through the shed blood of Christ on the cross. Because of Christ’s forgiving power, we can always be made clean after we sin if we humbly seek it. 



At the same time, it must be noted that it is not biblical for a person to sin habitually and continually as a lifestyle and still be a believer (1 John 3:8-9). This is why Paul admonishes us to “examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?” (2 Corinthians 13:5). As Christians, we do stumble, but we do not live a lifestyle of continual, unrepentant sin. All of us have weaknesses and can fall into sin, even if we don’t want to. Even the apostle Paul did what he didn’t want to do because of the sin at work in his body (Romans 7:15). Like Paul, the response of the believer is to hate the sin, repent of it and ask for divine grace to overcome it (Romans 7:24-25). Although we need not fall because of God’s sufficient grace, sometimes we do because we rely upon our insufficient strength. When our faith grows weak and like Peter, we deny our Lord in word or in life, even then there is still a chance to repent and be forgiven of our sin. 



Another one of Satan’s tricks is to get us into thinking that there is no hope, that there is no possibility that we can be forgiven, healed, and restored. He will try to get us to feel consumed and trapped by guilt so that we do not feel worthy of God’s forgiveness any longer. But since when were we ever worthy of God’s grace? God loved us, forgave us and chose us to be in Christ before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-6), not because of anything we did, but “in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory” (Ephesians 1:12). We must always keep in mind that there is no place we can go that God’s grace cannot reach, and there is no depth to which we can sink that God is no longer able to pull us out. His grace is greater than all of our sin. Whether we are just starting to wander off course or we are already sinking and drowning in our sin, grace can be received.



Grace is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8). When we sin, the Spirit will convict us of sin such that a godly sorrow will result (2 Corinthians 7:10-11). He will not condemn our souls as if there is no hope, for there is no longer any condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1). The Spirit’s conviction within us is a movement of love and grace. Grace is not an excuse to sin (Romans 6:1-2), and it dare not be abused, meaning that sin must be called sin, and it cannot be treated as if it is harmless or inoffensive. Unrepentant believers need to be lovingly confronted and guided to freedom, and unbelievers need to be told that they need to repent. Yet let us also emphasize the remedy, for we have been given grace upon grace (John 1:16). It is how we live, how we are saved, how we are sanctified, and how we will be kept and glorified. Let us receive grace when we sin by repenting and confessing our sin to God. Why live a soiled life when Christ offers to make us clean and whole and right in the eyes of God?

Here are the sources from the site

http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-sin.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/forgive-same-sin.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/forgiven-why-not-sin.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/sin-daily.html


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## lovely008 (Feb 22, 2011)

Poohbear said:


> Scenario:
> 
> Let's say this Christian girl professed a faith in Christ at a young age and was then baptized.  She attended church every Sunday and was very involved with the church. She read her bible, prayed, and even taught other people in the church. Then she one day experimented with sexual intercourse at the end of her high school years. *As time goes on into her 20's, she continues this behavior, tries to stop and even feels bad about what she is doing every time, and prays and confesses her sin to God over and over for forgiveness*. Days, weeks, or months could go by, and she would have sex again. She was never promiscuous per se (as in having multiple random sex partners), she would just always have sex with her boyfriend only. During this whole time, she is still heavily involved in the church, teaching others about the Bible, and never ceases to pray, and still claims to believe in Jesus as her personal Lord and Savior.
> 
> ...



If she confessed and is showing fruits in other parts of her life but CANNOT stop something like this, I believe she is a christian but most likely has a demonic stronghold in her life. She has given what seems to be the spirit of lust the right to set up camp in her life. 

During this past fast, The Lord revealed this to me and set me free. I had to confess and ask God to forgive me for every sin in my past that gave the devil a RIGHT (There will be temptation but he will not set up shop in our lives if he has no right) to set up a demonic stronghold in my life. The Holy Spirit brought things to remembrance and trust me I have the worst memory. After confessing and asking for repentance, I proceeded to cast out the demons and their strongholds in the name of Jesus. It was very intense but I knew that the battle was The Lord's and the victory was his. I immediately saw changes in myself and truly realized that the devil is a coward and realized even more how truly powerful the name of Jesus is.

Dr. Adrian Rogers gave a great sermon on Demonic strongholds that opened my eyes to things I was struggling with letting go. It's something every christian really, really needs to be aware about. Here's a link to the message audio: http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/love-worth-finding/listen/how-to-break-satans-strongholds-in-your-life-137219.html


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## CoilyFields (Feb 22, 2011)

Also,

God established the law in the OT. But NO ONE was good enough to be able to keep the law in deed and in their hearts. 

Thats why we needed Jesus...a savior to bridge the gap that our sin caused between us and God.  So if our good deeds couldnt bridge that gap before...why would we believe our bad deeds could destroy the power of that bridge (the blood of Jesus).


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## Poohbear (Feb 22, 2011)

makeupgirl said:


> Here are the sources from the site
> 
> http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-sin.html
> 
> ...


makeupgirl

It's funny that you posted this articles from gotquestions.org because I have read all of them one day several months ago and they all left me confused.   I even re-read some of them and came to the same conclusion... To me, these articles are indirectly saying it's okay to sin as a Christian.


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## Poohbear (Feb 22, 2011)

CoilyFields...



CoilyFields said:


> 1. Ephesians 2:8-9 explains that we have achieved salvation by Gods grace through our faith. Not by works so that no one can boast.
> So if we can't do enough good works to earn our way into heaven, conversly we can't do anything bad enough to revoke Gods promise.  His grace offered it and our faith led us to accept it. The end.
> We should still strive to live a holy life but the Bible says even our righteousness is as filthy rags (compared to a perfect God). Our good works (including not sinning ) is for our relationship with God and so that others see our good works and praise God.


So a fornicator that never marries can still end up in heaven as long as she claims to be a believer in Jesus and ask forgiveness of the SAME sin over and over? Repentance is not required for salvation?



CoilyFields said:


> 2. The Bible talks about many folks not inheriting the kingdom of heaven/God. There are two meanings to this phrase. One refers to heaven the place God dwells. The other refers to the kingdom of heaven inside each believer. Romans 14:17 explains that kingdom is righteousness, peace, and joy in the holy ghost. So it is possible for your sins to effect these areas. Your unrighteous acts affect your relationship with God, you won't have peace with others, and you will not have joy...the kingdom of God on the inside of us while on earth...not our eternal status.


 This is interesting... so there are two kingdoms of heaven/God? This is a first time hearing this concept but it makes sense with regard to sin and salvation. However, if unrighteous acts affect your relationship with God, how come it does not affect your eternal status? Is "inheriting the kingdom of heaven/God" different from "salvation"?



CoilyFields said:


> 3. If whenever we sin we had to get saved all over again then the blood of Christ would be ineffective. The priests used to have to constantly go before God offering burnt sacrifices for the people (under the law) because that sacrifice was only good for that one sin, they continually stood before God. But the reason Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice was because he, the high priest, the sacrificial lamb, only had to die once for all. Past present and future sins. And when he was done the bible said he sat down! Cuz the work was done and he now sits making intercession for us (asking Gods grace on our behalf). (This leads to pauls plea for us not to sin haphazardly just because grace is abounding)
> 
> So a Christian that is overtaken in a fault must confess and ask for forgiveness.  and then do the WORK it takes to not repeat it. I.e. maybe she shouldn't have a boyfriend...duh. stop clearing a path to sin. If I keep maxing out my credit cards and can't seem to stop then I need to get rid of them altogether. Seems drastic but you will do what you need to for those things you find important.
> 
> Sent from my Zio using Long Hair Care Forum App


Okay, with saying this.... why should she do the WORK it takes to not repeat the sin if her past, present, and future sins are forgiven by the sacrificial lamb of God?


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## aribell (Feb 22, 2011)

I was reading this verse yesterday:



			
				Luke 17:3-4 said:
			
		

> Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.”



What I understand from that is:

a) forgiveness is conditional upon repentance
b) forgiveness is unquestionably given after repentance
c) so long as there is repentance, even if frequent, there will be forgiveness

The danger of falling away is not in repeating a sin too often, but in eventually giving up and ceasing to repent and turn back to God; for without repentance there will be no forgiveness.


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## aribell (Feb 22, 2011)

Oh, I wanted to add why I don't think that repeated forgiveness means that the Christian walk is easy.  Essentially, Scripture tells us that to sin against God is to harden our heart toward Him.  When our hearts are hardened through repeated sin, we become spiritually calloused and respond less and less to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.  Because the Holy Spirit is the one who convicts of sin, when we become insensitive to the Spirit, we cease to be convicted of our sin.  When we no longer feel conviction, we cease to repent and so cease trusting in Jesus for our forgiveness.  Without faith in Jesus (active faith) we will not stand before the Lord.  

God will forgive repeatedly.  He puts no limits on how many times He will forgive--even to the crazy extent shown in Luke.  But repeated sin will harden _us _and we will find ourselves in danger of becoming so hard that we no longer care about the things of God and ultimately turn away from Jesus altogether.  

_"If today you hear His voice, harden not your heart."_


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## makeupgirl (Feb 22, 2011)

Poohbear said:


> makeupgirl
> 
> It's funny that you posted this articles from gotquestions.org because I have read all of them one day several months ago and they all left me confused.   I even re-read some of them and came to the same conclusion... To me, these articles are indirectly saying it's okay to sin as a Christian.



lol....I don't think they are saying it's ok to sin but let's just keep each other in prayer that as we continue our walk with the Lord that we will do what Romans 12:9 says,"abhor what is evil and cling to what is good"


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## CoilyFields (Feb 22, 2011)

Poohbear said:


> @CoilyFields...
> 
> 
> *So a fornicator that never marries can still end up in heaven as long as she claims to be a believer in Jesus and ask forgiveness of the SAME sin over and over? Repentance is not required for salvation?*
> ...


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## LilMissSunshine5 (Feb 22, 2011)

I think we could go back and forth forever, but the two "camps" can't be reconciled. One believes in grace based salvation and the other believes in works based salvation. I fall in the camp that believes salvation is based on grace. I can't earn it, nor can I lose it (not even by sinning), because it was a gift. I'm sorry, but I don't believe God revokes our salvation if we sin. I don't think it matters if it is one time sin like gluttony or habitual sin like fornication, sin is sin to God. Sometimes we sin without even knowing it. The purpose of the salvation was to cover our sins. It is powerful...how powerful would it be if it only had partial power under specific circumstances? I don't think God does things halfway. If we had to continually get saved or could have our salvation "revoked" because of sin, then we might as well be living under the Old Testament Law IMO. There is no freedom in that. I think everything we need to know about salvation is contained in John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" I don't think there is any debating the message of that verse. 

I believe the blood covers my sin from the past, present and future. God is timeless and so is the salvation He offers us. He knows our hearts, our motives and whether we truly accept it. I attempt to not sin and ask forgiveness not because I am afraid of losing my salvation, but because I want to please my Heavenly Father. The grace God extended me through the blood is not a license to sin. If I choose to sin, then it creates a wedge between God and I, but it doesn't cancel out my salvation, it damages my relationship with God. I choose to try to live a holy life because I don't ever want to not be close to God. I lived like that before and it wasn't a happy life. Like I said previously, salvation is only the beginning of our Christian journey. _Maybe an analogy could be that Christianity is like a basketball team. Salvation gains us an admission to the team, but would God be proud of us if we were content with just being bench warmers? I want Him to be proud of me for using my talents, working hard to become better and being a contributing member of the team LOL But when the team wins the championship, we are ALL champions (bench warmers and starters alike). I think we just have to decide what kind of team member we want to be._ But I think a lot of us in this thread have fundamental differences in doctrine that won't ever be reconciled. Those are my 2 cents.


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## LilMissSunshine5 (Feb 22, 2011)

CoilyFields, I totally agree! Couldn't have said it better myself  If I saw your response before I posted, I would have saved myself some time writing up my long reply


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## LoveisYou (Feb 22, 2011)

While I was out "feeding my flesh" I noticed one of the things I did was hide, kind of like Eve in the garden of Eden, my shame and guilt led to me hiding.  I hid in many ways, I stopped attending church regularly, I was no longer on the usher board, I hid some of the consequences of my sin......I was so ashamed that I became disconnected from Christian fellowship, which is sometimes necessary for accountability - especially for young Christians.  The enemy used my guilt and shame to keep me hiding, keep me disconnected and more sins entered my life.  I am so blessed because looking back.... I am so thankful that God watched over me and kept me.   I know I can't do it by myself so I have fully turned my weakness over to Him and pray always that He helps me to always present my body as a "living sacrifice, holy and acceptable." I don't take fornication lightly -  I have reaped the consequences and experienced the downfalls. Further I do believe when you have sex with someone you open up your spirit to theirs and sometimes you have no idea what you are opening your spirit to; hence why many believe it's so important to break sexual soul ties before entering into a marriage etc.


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## Poohbear (Feb 22, 2011)

LilMissSunshine5 said:


> I think we could go back and forth forever, but the two "camps" can't be reconciled. One believes in grace based salvation and the other believes in works based salvation. I fall in the camp that believes salvation is based on grace. I can't earn it, nor can I lose it (not even by sinning), because it was a gift. I'm sorry, but I don't believe God revokes our salvation if we sin. I don't think it matters if it is one time sin like gluttony or habitual sin like fornication, sin is sin to God. Sometimes we sin without even knowing it. The purpose of the salvation was to cover our sins. It is powerful...how powerful would it be if it only had partial power under specific circumstances? I don't think God does things halfway. If we had to continually get saved or could have our salvation "revoked" because of sin, then we might as well be living under the Old Testament Law IMO. There is no freedom in that. I think everything we need to know about salvation is contained in John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" I don't think there is any debating the message of that verse.
> 
> I believe the blood covers my sin from the past, present and future. God is timeless and so is the salvation He offers us. He knows our hearts, our motives and whether we truly accept it. I attempt to not sin and ask forgiveness not because I am afraid of losing my salvation, but because I want to please my Heavenly Father. The grace God extended me through the blood is not a license to sin. If I choose to sin, then it creates a wedge between God and I, but it doesn't cancel out my salvation, it damages my relationship with God. I choose to try to live a holy life because I don't ever want to not be close to God. I lived like that before and it wasn't a happy life. Like I said previously, salvation is only the beginning of our Christian journey. _Maybe an analogy could be that Christianity is like a basketball team. Salvation gains us an admission to the team, but would God be proud of us if we were content with just being bench warmers? I want Him to be proud of me for using my talents, working hard to become better and being a contributing member of the team LOL But when the team wins the championship, we are ALL champions (bench warmers and starters alike). I think we just have to decide what kind of team member we want to be._ But I think a lot of us in this thread have fundamental differences in doctrine that won't ever be reconciled. Those are my 2 cents.





LilMissSunshine5 said:


> CoilyFields, I totally agree! Couldn't have said it better myself  If I saw your response before I posted, I would have saved myself some time writing up my long reply



LilMissSunshine5, you post is welcomed and valued in this thread too.

I'm just torn between which camp to believe in...  1) Grace based on believing only and forgiven past, present, future sins OR 2) Grace based on believing and a one time repentance from all sin and unrighteous. "Once Saved Always Saved and sin all you want" vs "You can lose you salvation due to sin". I don't know which one to believe! erplexed


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## LilMissSunshine5 (Feb 22, 2011)

Poohbear- How about neither? Bc I don't believe in either of those. Yes, I do believe if you are truly saved, then you are always saved, but why does that have to mean they can sin all they want? Why would someone desire to become saved only to stay a slave to sin? I didn't accept salvation thinking it entitled me to an unlimited sin gift card  I turned away from sin when I became a Christian. But as years passed, I backslid.  This wasn't an intention I had when I became saved, but because of the human sin nature, this happens to many Christians (I suspect).  While grace is freely given, it should inspire us to want to sin less, not encourage us to use it as a license to do whatever we want.  

It sounds like you are afraid if you believe you can't lose your salvation, then you won't have incentive to "behave" and not sin. Please correct me if I am wrong, but it is just what I have sensed from the posts.  In my past, I struggled with legalism because I was afraid if I believed differently then I wouldn't act right. In reality, it kept me enslaved to my sin nature because I became very judgemental and was guilty of other "righteous" sins in trying to avoid sin, if that makes any sense.  This eventually eroded my relationship with God. When I eventually started committing the sins of the very people I judged, it made me feel so guilty that it created a giant gulf between God and I.  It got so bad that I couldn't even hear God anymore and I felt so lost.  But when I got to my lowest point, I finally let those ideas go and came to God humbly asking for help and insight. And He accepted me back and my mindset completely changed.

I realized that my other beliefs were false doctrine and only served as a tool for the devil to separate me from fully experiencing the love of God! I figured out I was behaving just like the Pharisees thinking avoiding sin and "being righteous" somehow earned me God's favor. Our very best is like filthy rags to God  I have "sinned" less since believing that God's grace was enough and He would never stop loving me/turn His back on me. It doesn't seem intuitive, but this has been my experience.  Grace hasn't given me license to sin, but encouraged me to strive to be more like Christ because of how generous God has been in always showing me love. It allowed the power of the blood to truly manifest in my life  I finally accepted the *unconditional* love of God and it actually made me more loving towards other people.

For instance, when my parents disciplined me as a child...fear worked as a temporary strategy to make me behave, but it usually just made me better at doing my dirt  My parents being proud of me was a much more effective motivator for me to do right and it usually had more long term effects.  My point is that God doesn't want us to obey Him out of fear, but out of love and respect.  Love and reverence will overcome fear anyday! God always tells us to fear not- He wants us to live life more abundantly. I got saved to be free, not still be in bondage to anything  I still sin because every human does, but I turn away from sin and ask for forgiveness much faster than I did before I fully understood grace. Therefore, my relationship with God is restored much faster and I am less likely to fall even deeper into sin, so they don't become strongholds. Just thought I should share my personal journey with you since you seem so conflicted about this topic  Pray and keep seeking


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## Rainbow Dash (Feb 22, 2011)

Christ came to fulfill the law. That is why He summed to Commandments up in 2.

Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and Love your neighbor as yourself. These are the greatest Commandments.

If we love God with all that we are, we will not willfully sin because we dont want to hurt the one we love, not saying we won't get angry, have a bad thought, or do something that displeases Him but when we do sin and fall short, we know that we can run to Him and not away from Him. He loves us and we know that He loves us because of our relationship with Him and spending time in His presence and His Word.

He wishes that none perish but that we all come to repentance because we love Him.  When I was dealing with bitterness. I knew it was wrong but I allowed it in, I had to run to Him for healing and deliverance and not allow condemnation to keep me in sin. He is always waiting with open arms.


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## Poohbear (Feb 22, 2011)

LilMissSunshine5 said:


> Poohbear
> 
> *It sounds like you are afraid if you believe you can't lose your salvation, then you won't have incentive to "behave" and not sin.* Please correct me if I am wrong, but it is just what I have sensed from the posts.  In my past, I struggled with legalism because I was afraid if I believed differently then I wouldn't act right. In reality, it kept me enslaved to my sin nature because I became very judgemental and was guilty of other "righteous" sins in trying to avoid sin, if that makes any sense.  This eventually eroded my relationship with God. When I eventually started committing the sins of the very people I judged, it made me feel so guilty that it created a giant gulf between God and I.  It got so bad that I couldn't even hear God anymore and I felt so lost.  But when I got to my lowest point, I finally let those ideas go and came to God humbly asking for help and insight. And He accepted me back and my mindset completely changed.


LilMissSunshine5 - Thanks for sharing your personal journey.  

To address the *bolded* part above... I have initially been taught once saved always saved and that we should not sin because of what Christ has done for us.

As I got older, the teachings started to change from what I was initially taught to "we are forgiven of past, present, and future sins" and "we are sinners saved by grace". That to me means "license to sin".

And I've had a similar experience as you. As I got older, I didn't sin intentionally so that grace may abound. I believe I sinned because of human nature as well. But it started to play on my mind when it came to repentance. I felt like I was not repenting if I went back to the same sin.

For example, I never used profanity as a child. Not even in high school or really in college. In my later years in college is when I started using curse words.  Then it got worse after graduating. I've prayed to stop but would go back and use bad words. Eventually, I stopped asking for forgiveness of this sin and started feeling like I wasn't a true Christian. Right now, I'm trying to exercise self-control and not use curse words anymore. I know I can do it because I've never curse at my parents, nor at work, nor when I was in school. I only cussed around friends and a few close family members. I feel like there must be a bad spirit in me or something. 

So to a certain extent, I would say yes to the *bolded* because of what I've experienced. It's like believing in "once saved always saved" made me lose my incentive to behave or not sin if you know what I mean... but I would also say no to the *bolded* because I want and desire to experience holiness, walking in the Spirit, and a true relationship with Christ and yielding to his ways as a Christian.... not the sin, guilt, and misery as a Christian.

I'm probably not making any sense anymore. I need to go to sleep....


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## CoilyFields (Feb 23, 2011)

LilMissSunshine5 you are taking words right outta my mouth girl!

Poohbear I thank God for you and your journey sweetie. We all have doubts and confusion at times and I am so glad that we can discuss them here freely without condemnation or shame.

We've actually been talking about this a lot in my bible studies so the subject is fresh in my mind.

1. even if we thought that after we accepted Christ that if we sinned we would go to hell...did that ever stop us from sinning? Nope! lol Fear was not strong enough to keep us "holy". 

2. Jesus has erased the PENALTY of our ETERNAL consequence of sin (death in the form of eternal seperation from God...hell) but he HAS NOT erased the IMMEDIATE EARTHLY consequences of our sins.  Honey we are punished for the sins we commit on earth while we are here! As a matter of fact God expects more out of us than he does those who dont know him. So we have the conviction of the HOly Ghost to deal with AND the seperation from our father when we sin (besides the consequences)

So rest assured...once saved always saved does not mean our path while here on earth will be smooth while we sin...we create the bumps in the road and will most definately have to travel them!!!!


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## Poohbear (Feb 23, 2011)

CoilyFields said:


> LilMissSunshine5 you are taking words right outta my mouth girl!
> 
> Poohbear I thank God for you and your journey sweetie. We all have doubts and confusion at times and I am so glad that we can discuss them here freely without condemnation or shame.
> 
> ...



CoilyFields,

You made some great points in this quoted post above that cleared up alot of confusion in my mind! Thank you!


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## CoilyFields (Feb 23, 2011)

Glad I could be of service!!!!


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## nicolesanjuan (Feb 23, 2011)

So much to say here...so I won't say a Word. Well, ok, so you forced me...although, I really do hate these types of debates...anyhow, to the "once saved, always saved" theologians, please ask God for clarity. Gifts and callings come without repentence...you can have the gift to preach and teach like no one else and not have repented, but, the bible says that "Holiness, without which, no man shall see God"...The lake of fire and hell was not originally intended for humans, it was for the devil and his demons...but the bible says that Hell hath enlarged itself...why? to accomodate those who live in sin.....

The devil almost got me with this one when I first came into the "church"...but God, not the preacher, not the church people who had grew up in church and had become numb to the glory of God...but God, convicted me of sin...and gave me the specific scripture...2 Corinthians 7:1 KJV
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Holiness, people...

We can justify sin all day long...."nobody's perfect, everybody's dealing with something" but God is able to deliver us from sin, not just the penalty, and if we are not delivered it is because we really don't want to be. When I walked in sin...was I worthy of death (seperation from God eternally)...well, of course, I would would say no, because no child ever feels that they deserve punishment....but, ultimately his Word says that the wages of sin is death....you cannot walk in sin....it's holiness or hell!!! our church, Burning Bush International Ministries...just did a illustrative sermon on Hell (myths/facts)....bbimonline.org on youtube and facebook...

Soooo much to say.....

love you all,
Nicole

If I say that I am without sin...then I lie and do not know the truth...but if I confess my sins he is faithful and just to FORGIVE me and to CLEANSE me from all unrighteousness.


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## Brittneynicole7952 (Feb 24, 2011)

The important thing to consider is what Jesus said, Mat. *5.30.*  There are many temptations in the world, ones in which many Christians deal with on a day to day basis. Does this mean that you are "off the hook" for your one sin that tempts you more than anything?? No. God does not work like that, if you are a willing vessel God will take that desire away, if its something that you really want. There are no excuses, when you can achieve anything with prayer. With God, all things are possible. I mean you will be presented with the temptation, to test you...but this is for strength. The thing is, sex is a beautiful thing that God created for HUSBAND and WIFE only, because it is that intimate.


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