# What is a Sinner?



## Poohbear (Sep 8, 2009)

Is a sinner a Christian that occasionally does wrong against God and can be forgiven?

OR

Is a sinner someone that considers themselves a Christian and continues to sin without remorse or feeling sorry for their sins?

OR 

Is a sinner someone that is NOT a Christian and does not believe in Jesus Christ?

...

I could ask more questions but I'll leave it at that... 

~~~

I ask these questions because I know there are some Christians out there that do not consider themselves sinners while there are some Christians that do consider themselves sinners. 

Why???

I would elaborate more on this but I'm about to get offline. In the mean time, all posts are welcome. And I would appreciate scriptures from the Bible as well to support the answers to these questions.

Thanks in advance.


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## Ramya (Sep 8, 2009)

A sinner is one who sins and is unrepentant.


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## discobiscuits (Sep 8, 2009)

a sinner is everyone except Jesus. period.


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## Sharpened (Sep 8, 2009)

As long as we are in this yucky flesh, then we are sinners.


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## ILYandY (Sep 8, 2009)

A sinner is someone (christian or not) who does bad/wrong in the eyes of the L-rd and does not repent. 

Everyone has their own definition according to their beliefs or lack of.


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## music-bnatural-smile (Sep 8, 2009)

A HUMAN

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Rom. 3:23

Any other definition is fallacious.


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## OhmyKimB (Sep 8, 2009)

I don't think there is a specific term. Everyone is a sinner. And to me you only remain in that status by not asking for forgiveness and trying to do better. Even if you struggle with trying to continuously do right the more you try and stop yourself from acting  out the better.


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## empressaja (Sep 9, 2009)

These responses make sense in the natural, but they contradict what the Word of God says about us.

In Christ we are new creations, so we cannot be sinners, we are NEW creations. Believers are the righteousness of God in Christ. It is necessary to separate who we are from what we do. We all sin, that is not WHO we are, but if we go back to the Word were not made sinners because of our sin we were made sinners because of Adam. We are made righteous because of Christ's obedience!


For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Roman 5:19

The Word puts it plainly that the opposite of a sinner is one who is righteous, and our righteousness comes through Christ.
How can we declare that we are the righteousness of God through Christ as believers but truly believe that we are a sinner because of our mistakes.


To answer your question, a sinner is one who is not in Christ! 


Blessings~


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## Aviah (Sep 9, 2009)

Very interesting responses... I would say a sinner is one who sins and does not repent and live a life for Christ (or have a heart to do so, its not all about the actions). We were supposed to have died with Christ and been resurrected with him, though still in the flesh we are new creatures, born of the Spirit. The only differences are now our minds begin to see things God's way, and we choose to live that new life he has for us. Jesus's blood atones for our sins (when we repent, not just feel sorry for doing it, saved or not). 
All in all you could say we are all sinners because we all sin. But at the same time if we are children of God, how can we still be sinners? Sinner to me is almost like saying its a part of your identity to sin, just like its a part of a teacher's identity to teach. But just because I teach doesn't mean I am a teachER. I really hope this makes sense lol. I'm not sure, I just think it refers to unrepentant sin, with knowledge of the fact that you are sinning. IMO


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## Crown (Sep 9, 2009)

> For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Rom. 3:23


Don't stuck at this : the grace of God is the bridge or the scale.
Rom 3.24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:    3.25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 3.26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Like birdie said : sinner is the opposite of righteous, righteousness through Jesus.
Someone who sins and is unrepentant is a sinner.

In the spiritual and for God, a Christian is a righteous through Jesus-Christ.

1Pet. 4.18 And if the *righteous *scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the *sinner *appear?

Jam. 5.20 Let him know, that he which *converteth the sinner* from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Rom. 5.8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, *while we were yet sinners*, Christ died for us.

Rom. 5.19 For as *by one man's disobedience many were made sinners*, so *by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous*.  

1Tim. 1.9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for *sinners*, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers...

(Sorry, you ask for references.)


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## HeChangedMyName (Sep 9, 2009)

I voted "Other" because we are ALL sinners saved only by God's grace.  So long as a person has breath in their body, they still have the opportunity to accept and live under God's grace.


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## Prudent1 (Sep 9, 2009)

From all I understand, a sinner is one who _*habitually*_ transgresses. To say that a Christian is also a sinner seems to be conflicting w/ scripture. See Rom 5:19. I understand why some say Christians are sinners b/c we do all fall short but the difference is that we have an advocate in Jesus (1 John 2:1-6). We are not intentionally sinning w/o true remorse. In other words, we should commit fewer sins as time goes by b/c we are constanly learning and doing better and constantly being made into God's image(2Cor 3:16-18). A sinner is not changing but _willingly_ engages in the _same_ behaviors and will defend or attempt to justify their behavior regardless as to the facts presented to them :angeldevi. Now as believers there is something called _besetting sins _that may take a while to overcome and require fasting etc before a Christian can be delivered but I submit to you that even while committing besetting sins a Christian is not at ease and is troubled in their spirit (conviction). Don't ask how I know  J/K . I have heard a lot of ministers who taught that the belief by some believers that they as Christians are still sinners is another mindset the enemy uses to keep us in bondage. I tend to agree based on the scriptures that tell us _old things have *passed away *_and the passage that says we are the *right*eous through Christ(see earlier posts). When we are born again, we exchange God's rightness for our wrongness. It's a whole new game from that point but if I continue to refer to myself as a sinner and think that in my heart I will stunt my growth. Life and death are in our mouths and as we think so we are. We fall down but it's not ok with us and we don't stay there wallowing in our unworthiness. We get up in these little fleshly bodies and we press on towards our higher calling.

1 John 2:1-6
1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, *we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus **Christ, the Righteous One*. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world. 

 3We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God's love* is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

2Cor 3:16-18
16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect[a] the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.*


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## HeChangedMyName (Sep 9, 2009)

*food for thought:*  Is there a difference between saying we are born into a natural state of sin, but that our spirit is free to be without sin once we make the concious decision to follow God's Word fully and wholly?


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## Prudent1 (Sep 9, 2009)

HeChangedMyName said:


> *food for thought:* Is there a difference between saying we are born into a natural state of sin, but that our spirit is free to be without sin once we make the concious decision to follow God's Word fully and wholly?


  I think so. The key word you used is "conscious" meaning fully aware of or sensitive to something. We are all born into sin as you know. No one has to spend time teaching a baby to be selfish. No one ever has to teach their toddler to do wrong. They pick up on that naturally. However, lots of time must be spent teaching them how to do what's right and acceptable. Once we *choose* a life in Christ he begins the work of teaching us what is good and acceptable behavior as his child.


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## music-bnatural-smile (Sep 9, 2009)

hmmmm I like everyone's responses... maybe we could add... used to be a sinner lol
I think about "all things passed away" etc. and it leads me to believe that we are new creations... but many saved people still sin... 
to me then I'm like, what does the word mean? Its kinda like saying... I win sometimes but I'm not a winner  so... I dunno, cuz nobody can be sinless for life... Even if we are saved and redeemed from sin... So I'm kinda torn...


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## Renovating (Sep 9, 2009)

^^^ Me too. That's why I've just been lurking on this one.erplexed


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## divya (Sep 9, 2009)

I believe that we are all sinners, and it is by the grace of God that we receive salvation. There is a need to recognize our sinful state as human beings in order to understand our need of a Savior. Just because I am Christian and strive to do right does not negate my need for Jesus Christ to save me by His grace. I am still a sinner, because I do still sin.  Jesus came to save sinners, not those who are already righteous without Him. "There is none righteous, no, not one." (Rom 3:10)  That is why I need Jesus...

That God refers to me as righteous in instances in His Word reflects His loving and forgiving character - and the beautiful reminder that one day this "corruptible shall have put on incorruption" (1 Cor 15:54).

This is a lovely excerpt written by Martin Luther regarding this topic...

_"Since the saints are always conscious of their sin, and seek righteousness from God in accordance with His mercy, they are always reckoned as righteous by God.  Thus in their own eyes, as a matter of fact, they are unrighteous. But God reckons them as righteous on account of their confession of their sin.  *In fact, they are sinners; however they are righteous by the reckoning of a merciful God). Without knowing it, they are righteous; knowing it, they are unrighteous.  They are sinners in fact, but righteous in hope...*_

Our God is full of grace and mercy!


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## Poohbear (Sep 9, 2009)

A sinner is someone who sins? Correct?

So Christians are not considered sinners, however, we still sin?

What's the deal?


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 9, 2009)

A penitant sinner or a perpetual sinner without remorse?  All men sin, therefore, all men are sinners.  But the scriptures give diff. views on these levels.  I guess, the day I no longer sin, I'll won't be a sinner anymore.  Until then, it's 70 x 7 for repentance and forgiveness.

I think we need a definition of what sin is and what it does to our relationship with G-d.  We even sin without realizing it at times.


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## empressaja (Sep 9, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> A sinner is someone who sins? Correct?
> 
> So Christians are not considered sinners, however, we still sin?
> 
> What's the deal?




What I understand is that a sinner is one who sin has dominion over. We as believers have died to sin.

For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. Roman 6:6

vs. 11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

I guess what I am trying to say is to find your identity in Christ is to see yourself as he sees you. When we ask God for forgiveness God remembers our sins NO MORE, so why would blood bought believer still identify with the sin that the Father isn't identifying them with. I believe the bible instructs to be "Awake to righteousness... that is what I believe we need to be seeing when we sees ourselves......, the righteousness through Christ.


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## HeChangedMyName (Sep 9, 2009)

I thought I posted this, but apparently I messed up:  Can someone check a concordance for the word sinner and the references made about sinners?  I am at work and dont have mine, i prefer the book over the online versions, it's easier to flip and crossreference.


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## Prudent1 (Sep 9, 2009)

I don't want this to come off the wrong way.  These are honest questions. I would appreciate honest answers ok? So, if we are all sinners still what were we saved from? What is the meaning of salvation? What is the meaning of redemption? Everyday several times a day (but esp before bed) I ask God for forgiveness of sins committed unintentionally and intentionally that day b/c I know I have done both over the course of the day but it is not ok with me to have done so. I ask him to continue the tranformation process and as I overcome certain things I thank him for the victories. If we are stuck as sinners do we have to get saved again or redeemed again? Wouldn't that make Jesus' sacrifice at the cross null and void instead of finished? Maybe I don't understand the question...


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## Crown (Sep 9, 2009)

A little more references in the OT :

*Psaumes 1.1* Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of *sinners*, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

*Psaumes 1.5* Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor *sinners *in the congregation of the righteous.

*Psaumes 26.9* Gather not my soul with *sinners*, nor my life with bloody men:

*Psaumes 104.35* Let the *sinners *be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.

*Proverbes 1.10* My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not.

*Amos 9.10*  All the *sinners *of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.


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## prettynatural (Sep 9, 2009)

sinning translates into "missing the mark"  and we all do that. What makes Christians different is that we have Christ whose blood shed justifed us. If Christ did not die, we still would be sacrificing birds and other animals to get forgiven for sin, Christ was the sacrificial lamb. When we do sin, we can go to God in prayer and repent(turn away from) When we seek the kingdom of God first and fill ourselves up with the Word, the power of God within allow for us to have power over the flesh. 

Now with that being said, I have not seen many that have been able to accomplish that. I know that is our goal and our reasonable service so in essence we are all striving to get there. I know I am.


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## Prudent1 (Sep 9, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> A penitant sinner or a perpetual sinner without remorse? All men sin, therefore, all men are sinners. But the scriptures give diff. views on these levels. I guess, the day I no longer sin, I'll won't be a sinner anymore. Until then, it's 70 x 7 for repentance and forgiveness.
> 
> I think we need a definition of what sin is and *what it does to our* *relationship with G-d*. We even sin without realizing it at times.


 

Sin causes a _separation_ between us and God. We know at the deepest level that we are wrong but if we continue in our sins (unrepentant/ unconfessed) it hinders our ability to hear the still small voice God uses when he speaks to us. It's like what would happen to your feet over a period of time if you were to go w/o shoes in rocky terrain. Eventually you would have thick crusty flesh on your feet for protection. In our case we develop thick scabs over our inner ears (soul) and we can no longer hear God's voice of correction. We become deluded (thinking lies to be truth) and eventually once we physically die we experience the ultimate separation from God- eternal hell.


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## Crown (Sep 9, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> A sinner is someone who sins? Correct?
> 
> So Christians are not considered sinners, however, we still sin?
> 
> What's the deal?



Take it like profession vs action.
A Christian can sin or sins : it is an act.
But when a Christian sins (and repents), it's not a profession, because of the blood of Jesus-Christ.
Christian : action to sin.
Sinner : profession to sin.

In the natural, like an alcoholic and a drinker. Someone who drinks is not an alcoholic.
Or like Prudent1 said : someone can teach and he is not a teacher.


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## empressaja (Sep 9, 2009)

Crown said:


> Take it like profession vs action.
> A Christian can sin or sins : it is an act.
> But when a Christian sins (and repents), it's not a profession, because of the blood of Jesus-Christ.
> Christian : action to sin.
> ...





Yes, separating your WHO from your DO!


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## Poohbear (Sep 9, 2009)

Crown said:


> Take it like profession vs action.
> A Christian can sin or sins : it is an act.
> But when a Christian sins (and repents), it's not a profession, because of the blood of Jesus-Christ.
> Christian : action to sin.
> ...


MAKES PERFECT SENSE!!!! 

All this time, I myself have been confused about this issue. I've always been taught/told that Christians are sinners too since we do sin. But when I read my Bible, I see differently. I see that we are dead to sin and alive in Christ. When we confess and ask for forgiveness of our sins, we are forgiven and are sins are remembered no more! Thanks for your analogies.


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## Poohbear (Sep 9, 2009)

Does anyone here think that it is possible not to ever sin again before we physically die?

If so, would it mean we are finally perfect like Christ?

If not, are we still considered alive in Christ?


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## royalty84 (Sep 9, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> Does anyone here think that it is possible not to ever sin again before we physically die?


 
I have to say it's possible. Only because of all the instances where Jesus healed ppl and said "Go and SIN NO MORE." No more=Never again. And that was BEFORE the holy spirit came to indwell in people to help us out even further. So now, we really don't have an excuse. It is possible, but shoooo, my attitude alone can make it impossible!  But I am all for aiming for perfection-nothing wrong with it-reach for the stars and you'll at least hit a tree branch!



> If so, would it mean we are finally perfect like Christ?


 
We have the ability to be perfect like Christ, in the sense in being mature in the word/spiritual matters. I don't have a concordance right now to back that up though. But generally, that's what the word "perfect/perfection alludes to)



> If not, are we still considered alive in Christ?


 
When you're actively obeying what he said/ actively persuing a Christ-pleasing lifestyle/ not trying to play God for a fool- you sure are!


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## divya (Sep 9, 2009)

So if Christians are no longer sinners when they accept Christ, then why did Paul refer to himself as the chief sinner?

*1 Timothy 1:15* -  _This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that *Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.*_

It is a present tense statement, not a statement referring to his past.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Sep 9, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> Does anyone here think that it is possible not to ever sin again before we physically die?
> 
> If so, would it mean we are finally perfect like Christ?
> 
> If not, are we still considered alive in Christ?




I believe it is possible.  I think that if we die in perfect grace, we go straight to heaven.  If we die in mortal sin, we go to hell.  If we die with venial sin, we burn off the effects of that venial sin in purgatory.  That's my take.  I'll choose straight to heaven for 200 Alex (but I need the daily graces to make it happen...monopoly money is not quite cutting it...I need greenbacks!)


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## Crown (Sep 9, 2009)

divya said:


> So if Christians are no longer sinners when they accept Christ, then why did Paul refer to himself as the chief sinner?
> 
> *1 Timothy 1:15* -  _This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that *Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.*_
> 
> It is a present tense statement, not a statement referring to his past.


 
Time to meditate the Psalm 1 !

 When one verse seems to contradict the others, it’s time to put this verse in the whole context in reading the entire chapter and it’s time to pray for revelation.  

 Please, do a search in the Bible (online) with the word sinner.

 Paul also said :
 Rom. 3.7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; *why yet am I also judged as a sinner*?
 Gal. 2.15 We who are *Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles*,

 *In the Bible, sinner refers to someone who sins and does not fear GOD.*

 Pro. 23.17 Let not thine heart envy *sinners*: but be thou in the fear of the LORD all the day long.

 Prov.11.31 Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the *sinner*.

 And David said -my sin-, -I have sinned-, not I am a sinner :
 Ps. 32.5 I acknowledge my *sin *unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.
 [FONT=&quot]1Chr. 21.8 And David said unto God, I *have sinned* greatly, because I have done this thing: but now, I beseech thee, do away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.

God bless your night!
[/FONT]


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## ROZELIDA_80 (Sep 9, 2009)

Prudent1 said:


> I don't want this to come off the wrong way.  These are honest questions. I would appreciate honest answers ok? So, if we are all sinners still what were we saved from? What is the meaning of salvation? What is the meaning of redemption? Everyday several times a day (but esp before bed) I ask God for forgiveness of sins committed unintentionally and intentionally that day b/c I know I have done both over the course of the day but it is not ok with me to have done so. I ask him to continue the tranformation process and as I overcome certain things I thank him for the victories. If we are stuck as sinners do we have to get saved again or redeemed again? Wouldn't that make Jesus' sacrifice at the cross null and void instead of finished? Maybe I don't understand the question...



IMO we are saved from the consequences of sin, death.  

According to the definition when sinning you are a sinner, just as if I were to teach I would be a teacher (maybe not a certified teacher, but a teacher according to the definition).


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## JinaRicci (Sep 10, 2009)

It seems the confusion comes from the different definitions of 'sinner.' We all sin- Christian or not.  When we ask forgiveness from our sins everyday- we are confessing to our sins, right?  So what is the definition of someone who sins?  How do you define someone who lies, cheats, or steals?  A sometimes liar? 

I think of being pardoned from our sins (which is a continual process) as a criminal who is pardoned from getting the death penalty.  The wages of sin is death- that's our penalty.  The criminal who is pardoned is still a criminal- but they've now been given the gift to live- the opportunity to do better!  

In the same way- we who now have the gift of eternal life are now commissioned to do better- to walk in the newness of life.  How would we expect a criminal pardoned from death to act?  Like he is really sorry, like a changed person, grateful for the pardon (& spreading his good fortune).  We on the other hand have a much greater gift- not only do we have a changed life here on earth- we are promised life eternal.  

The pardon means so much more to the one desperately in need of it- the person guilty of sin-not the one who is righteous.  None of us are righteous- so that means we need this pardon every single day.  We walk differently because of our repentance, but we're not perfect.  

We continue to need Jesus' cleansing blood-the gift of salvation just as those 'lost in sin' need to know of this perfect gift that is freely available to them to save them from their sins.


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## Poohbear (Sep 10, 2009)

JinaRicci said:


> It seems the confusion comes from the different definitions of 'sinner.' We all sin- Christian or not. When we ask forgiveness from our sins everyday- we are confessing to our sins, right? So what is the definition of someone who sins? How do you define someone who lies, cheats, or steals? A sometimes liar?
> 
> I think of being pardoned from our sins (which is a continual process) as a criminal who is pardoned from getting the death penalty. The wages of sin is death- that's our penalty. The criminal who is pardoned is still a criminal- but they've now been given the gift to live- the opportunity to do better!
> 
> ...


Thank you for your response, JinaRicci. I agree.


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## divya (Sep 12, 2009)

Crown said:


> Time to meditate the Psalm 1 !
> 
> *When one verse seems to contradict the others, it’s time to put this verse in the whole context in reading the entire chapter and it’s time to pray for revelation.  *
> 
> ...



That just it. The verse isn't in contradiction any of these verses above at all. In fact, Romans 3:7 actually supports the verse in 1 Timothy, as does the entire of Romans 3 supports Paul's statement in 1 Timothy.   

When we read 1 Timothy, we learn that because God truly is love, that we obtain mercy. Paul goes on to state that in him, "Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting." 

Why would Jesus Christ need to show longsuffering, if we no longer sin? We are still sinners. Christ shows longsuffering towards us because as Christians, we strive for righteousness - not because we are not longer sinners. It is precisely because we strive to do right that He is loving enough to call us righteous.

The difference between the righteous and the sinner in the Scriptures is not that the righteous cannot/do not sin. The difference is that the righteous are those who truly strive for righteousness, and God mercifully recognizes that.


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## divya (Sep 12, 2009)

ROZELIDA_80 said:


> IMO we are saved from the consequences of sin, death.
> 
> According to the definition when sinning you are a sinner, just as if I were to teach I would be a teacher (maybe not a certified teacher, but a teacher according to the definition).



Exactly! When one accepts Jesus Christ, it does not mean that they can never sin or rather, be a sinner. Every time we sin, we are sinners. Unless we cease to sin and have reached the point of being sinless, we cannot say that we are no longer sinners.  Christ chooses to call us righteous out of His abounding love.


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## divya (Sep 12, 2009)

JinaRicci said:


> It seems the confusion comes from the different definitions of 'sinner.' We all sin- Christian or not.  When we ask forgiveness from our sins everyday- we are confessing to our sins, right?  So what is the definition of someone who sins?  How do you define someone who lies, cheats, or steals?  A sometimes liar?
> 
> I think of being pardoned from our sins (which is a continual process) as a criminal who is pardoned from getting the death penalty.  The wages of sin is death- that's our penalty.  The criminal who is pardoned is still a criminal- but they've now been given the gift to live- the opportunity to do better!
> 
> ...



Beautifully put.


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## Crown (Sep 14, 2009)

divya said:


> The difference between the righteous and the sinner in the Scriptures is not that *the righteous cannot/do not sin*.


*Nobody said this! *So, you agree that there is a difference in the Scriptures between righteous and sinner.
 


> *The difference is that the righteous are those who truly strive for righteousness, and God mercifully recognizes that*.


I totally agree with you, you answer to the question and that's the point :* It is what we are supposed to be, as Christians.*

I would not call fireman, someone who helps someone else to escape out of a place on fire.
As I would not call pyromaniac, someone who lets the oven on and his house is on fire.

I would not call you sinner because you said that you are a Christian, so I know, even if you sin, you sincerely and truly strive for righteousness in Jesus-Christ and if so, in the eyes of God : you are righteous.

But what someone is calling himself/herself is up to him/her.

[FONT=&quot]In Jesus-Christ.[/FONT]


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## Poohbear (Sep 14, 2009)

divya said:


> That just it. The verse isn't in contradiction any of these verses above at all. In fact, Romans 3:7 actually supports the verse in 1 Timothy, as does the entire of Romans 3 supports Paul's statement in 1 Timothy.
> 
> When we read 1 Timothy, we learn that because God truly is love, that we obtain mercy. Paul goes on to state that in him, "Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting."
> 
> ...


Thanks for saying this! The "righteous" still sin, but we are dead to sin because we have salvation in Christ. Having salvation is what makes us righteous. We are striving for righteousness and to be more Christ-like. This is what I thought after reading the Bible.

Romans 3:10 - "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

Galatians 3:11 - "Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.""

Hebrews 10:17 - "And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more."

Hebrews 10:38 - "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him."


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## Poohbear (Sep 14, 2009)

Crown said:


> *Nobody said this! *So, you agree that there is a difference in the Scriptures between righteous and sinner.
> 
> I totally agree with you, you answer to the question and that's the point :* It is what we are supposed to be, as Christians.*
> 
> ...


That's a positive way of looking at it. Christians are righteous rather than sinners. Doesn't mean we are sinless... we're just striving for perfection.


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## Laela (Sep 14, 2009)

Righteousness is a gift .. it's available to everyone but only those who believe the declaration of faith in  Jesus actually become righteous. I believe I am righteous, therefore I am --and it is when I accepted Jesus.

Rom 3:22

We cannot _strive _to be righteous when we already are; but I do agree that the Righteous _can _sin. 

What separates the Righteous from sinners is a repentant heart and the ability to not give in to temptation (choosing not to deliberately sin). But even when a Righteous person sins they still are Righteous because they're not bound to the guilt of sin.

I am a sinner saved by Grace but I won't abuse my Righteousness _to _sin.





divya said:


> Why would Jesus Christ need to show longsuffering, if we no longer sin? We are still sinners. Christ shows longsuffering towards us because as Christians, *we strive for righteousness* - not because we are not longer sinners. It is precisely because we strive to do right that He is loving enough to call us righteous.
> 
> The difference between the righteous and the sinner in the Scriptures is not that the righteous cannot/do not sin. The difference is that the righteous are those who truly strive for righteousness, and God mercifully recognizes that.


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## Crown (Sep 14, 2009)

Laela said:


> Righteousness is a gift .. it's available to everyone but only those who believe the declaration of faith in  Jesus actually become righteous. I believe I am righteous, therefore I am --and it is when I accepted Jesus.
> 
> Rom 3:22
> *
> ...



Maybe, maybe it's just semantic, but this is not what divya said.
She said : we strive for righteousness (and it is true).
Laela said : we can not _strive_ to be righteous, when we already are.

A Christian doesn't have righteousness by himself, not in the flesh. Jesus-Christ has righteousness and only by Him, we are righteous.

We don't strive to be righteous, we strive for righteousness. As Paul and John said :

Rom. 7.21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.    7.22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:    7.23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 7.24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?    7.25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. 

1Tim. 6.12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

1John 5 : 16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin _which does_ not _lead_ to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not _leading_ to death. There is sin _leading_ to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not _leading_ to death.
 18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself,[e] and the wicked one does not touch him.    
19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies _under the sway of_ the wicked one.    
20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. 
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.


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## Laela (Sep 14, 2009)

Crown... we're all saying the same thing. It's semantics, indeed..  thanks for pointing that out. I strive for clarity


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## moonglowdiva (Sep 15, 2009)

*To simply answer the question "What is a sinner? A sinner is you and me. All mankind sin and fall short of the Glory of God. Repentance is a daily thing that we all must do. If we repent God will surely forgive us.*


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## divya (Sep 15, 2009)

Laela said:


> Righteousness is a gift .. it's available to everyone but only those who believe the declaration of faith in  Jesus actually become righteous. I believe I am righteous, therefore I am --and it is when I accepted Jesus.
> 
> Rom 3:22
> *
> ...



The Scriptures tell us to strive for, or rather, to seek righteousness. That God calls us righteous is due to His love and mercy but we must still seek after righteousness and other Godly qualities. 

*Matthew 6:33* - _But *seek* first the kingdom of God *and His righteousness*, and all these things shall be added to you._

*Psalm 15:2* - _He that walketh uprightly, *and worketh righteousness*, and speaketh the truth in his heart._

*Proverbs 11:18* - _The wicked worketh a deceitful work: *but to him that soweth righteousness* shall be a sure reward._

*Proverbs 21:21* -_ He that *followeth after righteousness* and mercy findeth life, righteousness, and honour._

*2 Timothy 2:22* -  _Flee also youthful lusts: but *follow righteousness*, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart._

Agree with the rest of your post!


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## Poohbear (Sep 15, 2009)

If Christians are righteous but can still sin... are we considered "righteous sinners"? 

Someone who is completely righteous is perfect and sinless...

Someone who is a flat out sinner is not righteous and sinful...

But a Christian is a combination of the two since we are alive in Christ and have a repentant remorseful heart and have God's mercy and forgiveness when we sin and fall short of His glory?


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## Crown (Sep 15, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> If Christians are righteous but can still sin... are we considered "righteous sinners"?
> 
> In the Bible, righteous and sinners are two opposite terms.
> It's like life and death.
> ...



If I look just at me, I would just be a sinner.
But, I believe that I am in Jesus-Christ who has righteousness, then with repentance, even if I sin, I am righteous. If you believe that you are saved by grace, you can not be a sinner; even if you sin in your flesh, your spirit is living in Jesus-Christ and you are _reaching_ at His righteousness. For me, saying that I am a sinner is rejecting Jesus-Christ (but as I said : for me). I think that I have no more to add.


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## Laela (Sep 15, 2009)

Thank you....  




Crown said:


> [COLOR=Red[U]]If I look just at me, I would just be a sinner.[/U][/COLOR]
> But, I believe that I am in Jesus-Christ who has righteousness, then with repentance, even if I sin, I am righteous. If you believe that you are saved by grace, you can not be a sinner; even if you sin in your flesh, your spirit is living in Jesus-Christ and you are _reaching_ at His righteousness. For me, saying that I am a sinner is rejecting Jesus-Christ (but as I said : for me). I think that I have no more to add.


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## Laela (Sep 15, 2009)

No.. someone who is Righteous is not perfect or sinless.






Poohbear said:


> Someone who is completely righteous is perfect and sinless...


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## Laela (Sep 15, 2009)

The scriptures below are supporting that the Righteous must continue to be obedient to God. But one of them, Prov 11:18, gives the clear distinction between the Righteous and a sinner.

The moment we accepted Jesus and declared through Faith that we are the Righteousness of God, we BECAME Righteous.

IOW, a sinner cannot/will not strive for righteousness. They must first become Righteous - through Jesus - to do so.

Again, we're saying the same thing. 





divya said:


> The Scriptures tell us to strive for, or rather, to seek righteousness. That God calls us righteous is due to His love and mercy but we must still seek after righteousness and other Godly qualities.
> 
> *Matthew 6:33* - _But *seek* first the kingdom of God *and His righteousness*, and all these things shall be added to you._
> 
> ...


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## Poohbear (Sep 15, 2009)

Crown said:


> If I look just at me, I would just be a sinner.
> But, I believe that I am in Jesus-Christ who has righteousness, then with repentance, even if I sin, I am righteous. If you believe that you are saved by grace, you can not be a sinner; even if you sin in your flesh, your spirit is living in Jesus-Christ and you are _reaching_ at His righteousness. For me, saying that I am a sinner is rejecting Jesus-Christ (but as I said : for me). I think that I have no more to add.


 Thank you for making that distinction. 

_Edited to add: _Thanks for your posts too, Laela.


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