# The Pope



## kayte (Apr 21, 2008)

I have to acknowledge that while it was significant that a religouis leader
gave a Universal World Wide message about Christ and Unity & that he acknowledged the sexual abuse front and center...&  I must give him props for this..... 

After all.....
when do we Americans..the world... ever really recognize Christ on such a super star status level as the Pope message is in symbol of?
There were rap stars and American Idols,red carpet ,the President and et al...celebrating the message of God ..*as embodied by the Pope*.
and that's the whole issue..right there for me

My heart is troubled...because kissing his ring and bowing down to this man.....alienated me from the message..and is in direct conflict with Biblical teachings..and I have to question this...

Jesus ..
when his disciples complained about people casting out demons in HIS name ..HE said it himself.... _whoever is with us ..is for us....._Is it possible as none of us are perfect...well given the good the Pope did ...why can't I reconcile essentially... the physical & ritualistic worshipping of this man who is holy...but NOT Christ.
It being an established tradition in the Catholic religion,beauracy, and hierarchy does not cut it for me.


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## saved06 (Apr 21, 2008)

Yeah, I was thinking that too. I was like does he preach fire from heaven, what's so great about this man that people bow down to him and kiss his ring? He is not God. People are worshipping him and not God. You don't need the pope to pray for you, you can pray for yourself.


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## tffy2004 (Apr 21, 2008)

kayte said:


> I have to acknowledge that while it was significant that a religouis leader
> gave a Universal World Wide message about Christ and Unity & that he acknowledged the sexual abuse front and center...&  I must give him props for this.....
> 
> After all.....
> ...



Thats one section of 'christianity' that I don't think I will ever understand. Everything about Catholicism bothers me to be honest. I was flipping through channels and one of the news anchors referred to this MAN as His HOLINESS............that literally made me sick to my stomach how and why do they do this I mean what is all the hype about. He is a Man just like any other man. I respect him for devoting his life to doing what he does but come on His Holiness. Just goes back to Mark 7:6-8

Its sickening to think what religion has majority of world into.


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## kayte (Apr 21, 2008)

> one of the news anchors referred to this MAN as His HOLINESS


 


> made me sick to my stomach


 
Me..too!!!!!!!!!
I thought am I wrong to feel this way? 





> People are worshipping him and not God.


 
See..isn't this a SIN? 
Didn't even an angel stop someone...who fell at his feet ...and say
((maybe John in Revelations or Daniel or both)) 

_and say.....stop.....don't worship....me_
Same with another disciple...Peter ..or Paul who said...._don't worship_
_me I am a man_

I'm just looked up the verse ..thank you for that reference in Mark...


6 He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: 
" 'These people honor me with their lips, 
but their hearts are far from me. 

7 They worship me in vain; 
their teachings are merely human rules.'  
8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions." 9 And he continued, "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 
Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."


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## miami74 (Apr 21, 2008)

saved06 said:


> Yeah, I was thinking that too. I was like does he preach fire from heaven, what's so great about this man that people bow down to him and kiss his ring? He is not God. People are worshipping him and not God. You don't need the pope to pray for you, you can pray for yourself.



Yeah, I feel the same way.  I am not fond of the Pope, and I grew up as a Catholic!  To me, he is just another human being, like any one else on this earth.  I do not see anything special about him and do not see him as the divine.  I have no interest in the Pope, only God.  God will be the only one I will bow down to, not the Pope.


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## PaperClip (Apr 21, 2008)

I was talking to my professor today (she calls herself a "recovering Catholic")....

She said she has a problem with this particular pontiff because of his involvement in squashing the molesting priests and that over a 50-year period, the Roman Catholic Church has paid out $2 BILLION dollars to victims.... Wow....

On a spiritual level, the position of pope is like a form of a spiritual gatekeeper, if you will, because of the weight and authority of that position (that there are BILLIONS of Roman Catholics across the planet). That's a lot of people under such leadership.

I'm not Roman Catholic and didn't grow up as such so I don't have that depth of socialization re. the pope as others do. Culture and socialization have A LOT to do with how we consider such things.

Maybe Roman Catholics don't "worship" the pope but since they consider the pope the MAIN GO-BETWEEN between the people and the Lord God Almighty, that they give such reverence to the pope. It's pivotal to their Roman Catholicism.

This rubs some Protestants the wrong way (particularly Pentecostals) because of the belief that Jesus Christ served as our go-between on the cross.


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## divya (Apr 21, 2008)

I would like to share this series of sermons regarding the Mark of the Beast, which ties into the Papacy. It may be long but it is very much worth the listen. Part 6 and 7 deal greatly with the Pope/Papacy, but the previous videos lay the foundation. 

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlnroLOiyPg
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83FG8YbxXRo
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByTGiGBNSA8&feature=related
Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66yTe3Dhesw
Part 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWpzq2sUoF8
Part 6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DysEz3DrSvE
Part 7: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AyK_8LiVwQ 

Lastly, this is not any sort of bash on Catholics, but deals with the Papacy itself. Certainly there will be people who professed Catholicism here on earth standing on the sea of glass. 

Take care ladies.


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## Country gal (Apr 21, 2008)

saved06 said:


> Yeah, I was thinking that too. I was like does he preach fire from heaven, what's so great about this man that people bow down to him and kiss his ring? He is not God. People are worshipping him and not God. You don't need the pope to pray for you, you can pray for yourself.



It is such a misconception that individuals are putting the Pope before Christ. It is also frustrating when folks make the assumptions that Catholics are not christians or we don't read our bible. I read my bible frequently. I also have a lot of reference and respect for the Pope as my religious leader. No one is above God not even Christ. Christ taught us to pray to the father using his name. 

I can't folks for being excited about seeing him. I have seen people bow down to other leaders of the world.


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## divya (Apr 21, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> I was talking to my professor today (she calls herself a "recovering Catholic")....
> 
> She said she has a problem with this particular pontiff because of his involvement in squashing the molesting priests and that over a 50-year period, the Roman Catholic Church has paid out $2 BILLION dollars to victims.... Wow....
> 
> ...



Exactly.  This is the crucial issue.

Just some additional food for thought. The Bible tells us that an antiChrist is one who does what? Substitutes himself in Christ's place. Christ alone was the Lamb that was slain. Christ alone intercedes on our behalf, NOT the pope.


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## Country gal (Apr 21, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> I was talking to my professor today (she calls herself a "recovering Catholic")....
> 
> She said she has a problem with this particular pontiff because of his involvement in squashing the molesting priests and that over a 50-year period, the Roman Catholic Church has paid out $2 BILLION dollars to victims.... Wow....
> 
> ...



Your instructor really needs to check her facts. In fact Pope Benedict was very vocal under the last Pope.


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## divya (Apr 21, 2008)

Country gal said:


> It is such a misconception that individuals are putting the Pope before Christ. It is also frustrating when folks make the assumptions that Catholics are not christians or we don't read our bible. I read my bible frequently. I also have a lot of reference and respect for the Pope as my religious leader. No one is above God not even Christ. Christ taught us to pray to the father using his name.
> 
> I can't folks for being excited about seeing him. I have seen people bow down to other leaders of the world.



I just would like to let you know that my posts are done with love and the best intentions. Hopefully none of them offend you. I surely believe that Catholics are Christians.  The Bible tells us to believe on the Lord Jesus and we shall be saved. Thus, Catholics are my brothers and sisters in Christ.  Certainly many Catholics read the Bible. 

However, my point of disagreement is on the issue of putting the Pope above Christ. It may not always be blatant, but I do believe that is surely a reality although not for all Catholic individuals.  It is within the Catholic doctrine, and many do adhere - knowingly and unknowingly.


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## Country gal (Apr 21, 2008)

How is it any difference when folks get up in arms about their pastors? This happens to be the relgious leader of large universal church. He is a man. He is not the go between for his followers and God.  I don't need a go between. Most catholics that I interact with don't feel that way. Just another misconception.


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## Keen (Apr 21, 2008)

Country gal said:


> It is such a misconception that individuals are putting the Pope before Christ. It is also frustrating when folks make the assumptions that Catholics are not christians or we don't read our bible. I read my bible frequently. I also have a lot of reference and respect for the Pope as my religious leader. No one is above God not even Christ. Christ taught us to pray to the father using his name.
> 
> I can't folks for being excited about seeing him. I have seen people bow down to other leaders of the world.



You know what, people will have their misconceptions. I don't even care to address them because we just had this conversation last week. I think many protestants are hypocritical about the catholic faith.  But of course it is easier to see a hay in someone else's eyes than the log in one's own eye.


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## Country gal (Apr 21, 2008)

divya said:


> I just would like to let you know that my posts are done with love and the best intentions. Hopefully none of them offend you. I surely believe that Catholics are Christians.  The Bible tells us to believe on the Lord Jesus and we shall be saved. Thus, Catholics are my brothers and sisters in Christ.  Certainly many Catholics read the Bible.
> 
> However, my point of disagreement is on the issue of putting the Pope above Christ. It may not always be blatant, but I do believe that is surely a reality although not for all Catholic individuals.  It is within the Catholic doctrine, and many do adhere - knowingly and unknowingly.



I am not offended but I have been practicing Catholicism for a long time. It is not in any Catholic doctrine that I have read that the Pope is above Christ. In fact at the Papal Mass in DC, people were hooping and hollering for the Pope but one of the last shots before mass began was of Jesus on the Cross, folks were exciting and shouting for joy that we were all there in the name of Christ.


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## Keen (Apr 21, 2008)

divya said:


> I just would like to let you know that my posts are done with love and the best intentions. Hopefully none of them offend you. I surely believe that Catholics are Christians.  The Bible tells us to believe on the Lord Jesus and we shall be saved. Thus, Catholics are my brothers and sisters in Christ.  Certainly many Catholics read the Bible.
> 
> * However, my point of disagreement is on the issue of putting the Pope above Christ. *It may not always be blatant, but I do believe that is surely a reality although not for all Catholic individuals.  It is within the Catholic doctrine, and many do adhere - knowingly and unknowingly.



Would you believe a Catholic if they told you that they do not put the Pope above Christ or have you made up your mind? Also how do you figure Caholics put the Pope before Christ?


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## divya (Apr 21, 2008)

Country gal said:


> How is it any difference when folks get up in arms about their pastors? This happens to be the relgious leader of large universal church. He is a man. He is not the go between for his followers and God.  I don't need a go between. Most catholics that I interact with don't feel that way. Just another misconception.



It is certain aspects, it is different historically and currently.  However, it can also be the same.   I agree with you that he is a man, however Catholic doctrine exalts the Pope higher and as a go-between.  The Virgin Mary is also said to do the same.

It may be a misconception in your eyes, however, my parents were raised Catholics in a different region of the world than you and have a totally experience. Other of my family members who were Catholic, as well as those who still are can confirm the same.


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## Country gal (Apr 21, 2008)

It just seems people are more concerned with finding reasons in thinking thier belief or misconception is right versus being openminded to truth.


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## PassionFruit (Apr 21, 2008)

saved06 said:


> Yeah, I was thinking that too. I was like does he preach fire from heaven, what's so great about this man that people bow down to him and kiss his ring? He is not God. People are worshipping him and not God. You don't need the pope to pray for you, you can pray for yourself.



When he was in DC last week, one woman on the news called him Jesus on Earth

I turned off the TV which I know was wrong cuz Jesus was born of a woman and wasnt without sin and that someone's belief system.. but still.. my mind cant comprehend the Catholics worshiping him


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## PassionFruit (Apr 21, 2008)

Keen said:


> Would you believe a Catholic if they told you that they do not put the Pope above Christ or have you made up your mind? Also how do you figure Caholics put the Pope before Christ?



maybe its an individual thing but I have heard Catholics saying the Pope IS Christ...


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## divya (Apr 21, 2008)

Keen said:


> Would you believe a Catholic if they told you that they do not put the Pope above Christ or have you made up your mind? Also how do you figure Caholics put the Pope before Christ?



Please go back and read my post. I would agree with the _individual_ as to whether or not they regard the Pope above Christ. However, I would not agree that the doctrine of the Catholic church do not do this.


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## Highly Favored8 (Apr 21, 2008)

Is this the same Pope who, 



*'Racist evil'* 
As a boy, Pope Benedict XVI was a member of the Hitler Youth in Germany but South Africa's President Thabo Mbeki says this experience will help him fight racism in Africa. 
"The new Pope, Benedict XVI, endured being forced into the Nazi army as a teenager in the 1940s. This gave him firsthand knowledge of racist evil, a scourge that is by no means defeated in the world of 2005," he said. 
In the 1980s, Cardinal Ratzinger cracked down on Bishops in Latin America who backed liberation theology, which argued the church had a duty to liberate the poor from oppression. 
Nevertheless, Mr Mbeki sees "him as a potential ally of insight and strength in renewed warfare to create a new, safer and fairer world." In the Democratic Republic of Congo, which has the largest Catholic population in Africa, the National Conference of Bishops welcomed Pope Benedict XVI as "a great sign of continuity in the actions of his predecessor, whose right-hand man he was." 
 BBC News/ World



I don't know!


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## divya (Apr 21, 2008)

Country gal said:


> It just seems people are more concerned with finding reasons in thinking thier belief or misconception is right versus being openminded to truth.



Please be honest. 

Have you read Catholic doctrine? Have you read the history of the Church?


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## Keen (Apr 21, 2008)

divya said:


> It is certain aspects, it is different historically and currently.  However, it can also be the same.   I agree with you that he is a man, *however Catholic doctrine exalts the Pope higher and as a go-between*.
> 
> It may be a misconception in your eyes, however, my parents were raised Catholics in a different region of the world than you and have a totally experience. Other of my family members who were Catholic, as well as those who still are can confirm the same.



Can you reference those doctrines?

I do understand there are extremist in every religion. I was just reading this pass easter that in the Philippines (I think it was the Philippines) that there is a tradition of actually nailing young men to the cross to celebrate easter. The people does this on their own. The priest interviewed said that they do not promote such activity but then people do it anyway. I don't mean to make any correlation to the country your parents are from. I'm just trying to illustrate that the church cannot force anyone to follow or not follow church doctrine. 

BTW: I'm just using different colors for different train of thought. Don't mean any thing by the colors.


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## divya (Apr 21, 2008)

Keen said:


> Can you reference those doctrines?
> 
> I do understand there are extremist in every religion. I was just reading this pass easter that in the Philippines (I think it was the Philippines) that there is a tradition of actually nailing young men to the cross to celebrate easter. The people does this on their own. The priest interviewed said that they do not promote such activity but then people do it anyway. I don't mean to make any correlation to the country your parents are from. I'm just trying to illustrate that the church cannot force anyone to follow or not follow church doctrine.
> 
> BTW: I'm just using different colors for different train of thought. Don't mean any thing by the colors.



Of course!  I will do my best to provide as much information on this as possible.  Again, I would like to assure you that this isn't an attack on Catholics. There has been an onslaught of rude and disrespectful comments over the past few days, and I purposely stayed away from the thread as to not make it seem as thought there is the same attitude from my end.


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## Keen (Apr 21, 2008)

divya said:


> Of course!  I will do my best to provide as much information on this as possible.  Again, I would like to assure you that this isn't an attack on Catholics. There has been an onslaught of rude and disrespectful comments over the past few days, and I purposely stayed away from the thread as to not make it seem as thought there is the same attitude from my end.



My only issue is with people arriving at conclusions without knowledge. I do want your reference though. I've never read the entire Catholic doctrine. In fact I haven't read most of it. I have it at home collecting dust. But Catholics and protestants read the same thing and arrive at different conclusions all the time.


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## divya (Apr 21, 2008)

POPE INTERCESSION - from the current Pope himself

*Pope Benedict prays JPII will help him build on spiritual gifts*

VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- Pope Benedict XVI prayed that Pope John Paul II would *intercede for him with God*, helping him to gather and build on the spiritual gifts that Pope John Paul gave to the church.

The Vatican police said almost 40,000 people joined Pope Benedict April 2 in St. Peter's Square for a Mass marking the third anniversary of Pope John Paul's death.

*"We pray that from heaven he will continue to intercede for each one of us,* and in a special way for me, whom providence has called to harvest his invaluable spiritual heritage," the pope said in his homily.
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0801774.htm
_________________________________________________________________________


REGARDING THE VIRGIN MARY: 

Pope Benedict's Website
• In its devotion to Christ's mother, the Virgin Mary, who Catholics believe gave birth to Jesus without having sex first and who was raised body and soul into heaven where she occupies a special place interceding between God and His people. http://www.popebenedictonline.org/php/showContent.php?linkid=4

______________________________________________________________________

Looking for more...


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## Country gal (Apr 21, 2008)

divya said:


> Please be honest.
> 
> Have you read Catholic doctrine? Have you read the history of the Church?



Funny, yes I have. At one point, Southern Baptist believed that slaves were not human and did not deserve the same rights as whites. All churches evolve. In fact many of the past beliefs have been modernized for lack of a better word. Many of the things that I was taught as a child are no longer in practice. Please don't insult my intelliegence and think I just blindly follow the Catholic Church without knowing the history.


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## divya (Apr 21, 2008)

Keen said:


> My only issue is with people arriving at conclusions without knowledge. I do want your reference though. I've never read the entire Catholic doctrine. In fact I haven't read most of it. I have it at home collecting dust. But Catholics and protestants read the same thing and arrive at different conclusions all the time.



Really wish I had the books here with me. My father has them in his library.  However, I am almost sure enough can be found online.


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## Keen (Apr 21, 2008)

divya said:


> POPE INTERCESSION - from the current Pope himself
> 
> *Pope Benedict prays JPII will help him build on spiritual gifts*
> 
> ...



Catholics participate in intercession all the time. Not just with the pope, but with the Saints and each other. I see people on this forum asking for prayers all the time.


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## divya (Apr 21, 2008)

Country gal said:


> Funny, yes I have. At one point, Southern Baptist believed that slaves were not human and did not deserve the same rights as whites. All churches evolve. In fact many of the past beliefs have been modernized for lack of a better word. Many of the things that I was taught as a child are no longer in practice. Please don't insult my intelligence and think I just blindly follow the Catholic Church without knowing the history.



I don't believe that I ever asserted that you blindly followed anything.  However, my question was whether you have read the doctrine/history.  It's extensive, which is the reason for my question. In my opinion, just because someone has not read all the doctrine does not mean that they blindly follow either.  Seems like you are very much on the defensive, which is understood, especially considering the past couple days on the forum.


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## divya (Apr 21, 2008)

Keen said:


> Catholics participate in intercession all the time. Not just with the pope, but with the Saints and each other. I see people on this forum asking for prayers all the time.



There is prayer and then there is the intercessory work of Jesus Christ. This is significant, as Christians (including Catholics) believe that Christ  intercedes in heaven on our behalf according to the Bible, when we repent to Him or ask for His mercy.  However, Catholics may confess to those other than Christ and those are believed to be able intercede in the manner than Christ does. The problem then is the diminishing of Christ as our Savior. 

To be more clear, what then is the significance of Christ's coming to die on the cross for us and returning to heaven where He intercedes for us if in fact the priest and pope may do the same? For example, in the article posted, Pope Benedict is claimed that Pope John Paul is in heaven interceding on behalf of humans.  This is against Scripture. This was and is Christ's purpose.  Jesus said that He is the way, the truth and the light. No one comes unto the Father but by Him. 

That's is where Catholic doctrine exalts the Pope (and even priests) before Christ, diminishing His sacrifice for us.


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## PaperClip (Apr 21, 2008)

Country gal said:


> Your instructor really needs to check her facts. In fact Pope Benedict was very vocal under the last Pope.


 
I am NOT about to roll up on my prof about a religion I know hardly anything about! (LOL!) 

She must be getting that from somewhere, though....


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## PaperClip (Apr 21, 2008)

PassionFruit said:


> When he was in DC last week, one woman on the news called him Jesus on Earth
> 
> I turned off the TV which I know was wrong cuz Jesus was born of a woman and wasnt without sin and that someone's belief system.. but still.. my mind cant comprehend the Catholics worshiping him


 
Jesus was born of a woman and He lived a sinless life and He arose from the dead. That sets Him apart from ANY and EVERY other religion, spirituality, god, deity, it, thing that dares attempt to call him/her/itself the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords.


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## PaperClip (Apr 21, 2008)

Keen said:


> Catholics participate in intercession all the time. Not just with the pope, but with the Saints and each other. I see people on this forum asking for prayers all the time.


 
True. We all can intercede for one another. 

And the Bible says that Jesus Christ  intercedes for us (Hebrews 7).


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## gone_fishing (Apr 21, 2008)

kayte said:


> I have to acknowledge that while it was significant that a religouis leader
> gave a Universal World Wide message about Christ and Unity & that he acknowledged the sexual abuse front and center...& I must give him props for this.....
> 
> After all.....
> ...


 
I watched the mass yesterday and my heart was troubled. I wanted to post about it but after the controversy I started with the molestation in the church thread, I didn't want to go there.


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## divya (Apr 21, 2008)

*Pope John Paul*

It is good to renew and reaffirm this faith at a moment when it might be weakening, losing something of its completeness or entering into an area of shadow and silence, threatened as it is by the negative elements of the above-mentioned crisis. *For the Sacrament of Confession is indeed being undermined,* on the one hand by the obscuring of the moral and religious conscience, the lessening of a sense of sin, the distortion of the concept of repentance, and the lack of effort to live an authentically Christian life.* And on the other hand it is being undermined by the sometimes widespread idea that one can obtain forgiveness directly from God, even in an habitual way, without approaching the Sacrament of reconciliation.* A further negative influence is the routine of a sacramental practice sometimes lacking in fervor and real spontaneity, deriving perhaps from a mistaken and distorted idea of the effects of the Sacrament.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2RECON.HTM

_______________________________



*Virgin Mary*

3) Therefore, *God chose to use Mary for the purpose of redeeming mankind. *She willed the Sacrifice on Calvary just as we will that someone ought to be redeemed or to repent, through prayer. We can merit graces given to ourselves or others by means of our own sufferings and penances (another aspect of this). There is such a thing as redemptive suffering, and we all can participate in that; how much more, *the blessed Virgin Mary, being sinless* and not heir to even original sin?

15)Likewise, God chooses to distribute all graces through Mary. *She is our Advocate and Supreme Intercessor, because she is so holy,* and is the Mother of God. How is that in any way unbiblical? It is not! 
http://saint-joseph-detroit.org/Articles/Armstrong/Mary3.html



_____________________________________________________



*The Bible Teaches:*

1 Tim 2:5-- For there is one God, and* one mediator between God and men*, the man
Christ Jesus;

1 John 2:1-- My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any 
 man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Revelation 5:9
 9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for *thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood* out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Isaiah 60:16 
16Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that *I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, *the mighty One of Jacob.


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## divya (Apr 21, 2008)

adequate said:


> I watched the mass yesterday and my heart was troubled. I wanted to post about it but after the controversy I started with the molestation in the church thread, I didn't want to go there.



It wasn't you though...it was the responses that followed from what I read.


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## gone_fishing (Apr 21, 2008)

divya said:


> It wasn't you though...it was the responses that followed from what I read.


 
I don't know what to think anymore. I thought it wasn't me too. I mean I thought I was asking a legitimate question but some folks really took offense so I didn't want to go there again. Everyone thinks I have an agenda. It's really frustrating.


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## divya (Apr 21, 2008)

adequate said:


> I don't know what to think anymore. I thought it wasn't me too. I mean I thought I was asking a legitimate question but some folks really took offense so I didn't want to go there again. Everyone thinks I have an agenda. It's really frustrating.



It is a valid question, but because some people have attacked all Catholics, some Catholics are on the defensive. It just like when someone disagrees with homosexuality and many people automatically assume that they hate and are attacking people who practice homosexuality. When in fact, many of us are able separate the sin and focus on that being the issue.


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## kayte (Apr 21, 2008)

I just want to qualify why I started the thread....

I want to recognize the miraculous and significant good that has been faciltated by the Pope's visit ..I listened to his message which was delivered with sensitivity and humility

how impressive a universal gathering to uplift the TEACHINGS OF CHRIST..irregardless of religious orientation....ie: Shaking hands w/Jewish leader..
....and I say with love..this was never meant to be a referendum on the Catholic religion aversus the Christian religion.... 

Give God credit ..due praise that the Lord through this man has presented a Jesus-Humanity-Forum embraced by the world...major stars celebrities,media,program interuptions...in the name of JESUS
ALL of us should be shouting halleujah for what he did ...bringing Christ to the fore in this way
I do apologize to my Catholic sisters on the forum for voicing impatience at the Catholic office so let me take that back..

WE ALL LOVE CHRIST....and 
JESUS LOVES US..it can truly be that simple..it IS that simple.
They will know we love Christ by our love
Why trip over religious political infrastructures
That's what key..GOD IS LOVE..

What troubled me....cuts across religious lines because certainly people of all spiritual affiliations either bowed or agreed /complicit in worship to this person....and equally certain there must be Catholics who do not agree with this practice..

The question..is on.....worship...kissing this man's ring....or bowing to him.......while he deserves acknowledgment and respect that is NOT the same....as worship.....I think it is wrong.....

religious leaders were brought up 

if it was the Dalai Lama or 
Abraham Joshua Herschel (were alive)  
Ralph Abernathy 
Mother Teresa
Joel Osteen 
Crefelo Dollar

Wrong
the question was  on 
_Deifying_ an individual called by GOD but who is NOT God
...kissing his ring..bowing down to him ...calling your Holiness
when no one desrves this but God....

NO ONE IS HOLY..no...NOT ONE says GOD
All have sinned and come short 

So I see this in opposition with the 1rst and 2nd commandments and verges on idol worship....politics of Catholicsim/Christianity Judaism etc ...aside

Why didn't the Pope say himself.

STOP
Do not worship me........ 
I am only a man
Worship Christ your Lord

now THAT would have been a message no one would forget


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## Country gal (Apr 21, 2008)

divya said:


> I don't believe that I ever asserted that you blindly followed anything.  However, my question was whether you have read the doctrine/history.  It's extensive, which is the reason for my question. In my opinion, just because someone has not read all the doctrine does not mean that they blindly follow either.  Seems like you are very much on the defensive, which is understood, especially considering the past couple days on the forum.



Your statement was Please be Honest as if I was not being honest. Re read what you wrote. It may seem as if I am being on the defensive. I am probably just tired of disputing the same old myths and misconceptions.

"When the enemy wishes to spoil God's family, he employs two great means: illusions and misunderstandings..."       --Louisa Jaques, Jerusalem, 1939


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## Country gal (Apr 21, 2008)

kayte said:


> I just want to qualify why I started the thread....
> 
> I want to recognize the miraculous and significant good that has been faciltated by the Pope's visit ..I listened to his message which was delivered with sensitivity and humility
> 
> ...



The Pope also recognizes that no matter how much he will let people know he is just a man some will still put him a pedistal (sp). My priest stated it really well during our homily. The Pope is a man just like you and I. He puts on his pants just like you or I. He said the Pope was very shy, intellectual. The pope seems appreciative of the support for his visit but I didn't get the sense in watching him that he was saying all praise the king. His message was very powerful for catholics and non catholics. I love his message, When you have hope you live differently. 

My grandmother is from the old school, she would kiss his ring. I ain't kissing his ring but I would show the man respect. I don't care for Bush but if I was in his presence I would show respect to the President of our great nation.


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## Keen (Apr 21, 2008)

divya said:


> There is prayer and then there is the intercessory work of Jesus Christ. This is significant, as Christians (including Catholics) believe that Christ  intercedes in heaven on our behalf according to the Bible, when we repent to Him or ask for His mercy.  However, Catholics may confess to those other than Christ and those are believed to be able intercede in the manner than Christ does. The problem then is the diminishing of Christ as our Savior.
> 
> To be more clear, what then is the significance of Christ's coming to die on the cross for us and returning to heaven where He intercedes for us if in fact the priest and pope may do the same? For example, in the article posted, Pope Benedict is claimed that Pope John Paul is in heaven interceding on behalf of humans.  This is against Scripture. This was and is Christ's purpose.  Jesus said that He is the way, the truth and the light. No one comes unto the Father but by Him.
> 
> That's is where Catholic doctrine exalts the Pope (and even priests) before Christ, diminishing His sacrifice for us.



Then why does protestants ask each other to pray for them? Catholics believes that Jesus is the only way as far as I know. I have not found any doctrine that says otherwise. Our "Act of Contrition" has no reference to the Pope.


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## PaperClip (Apr 21, 2008)

Keen said:


> Then why does protestants ask each other to pray for them? Catholics believes that Jesus is the only way as far as I know. I have not found any doctrine that says otherwise. Our "Act of Contrition" has no reference to the Pope.


 
Because the Bible instructs us to: James 5:13-16

"Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.


Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 

And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.  
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."

Maybe the last verse "Confess your faults...." justifies the Roman Catholic practice of the priest and confessional. But the difference is, I speculate out loud, is that when the priest says "do this, say this prayer 5 times, etc." and that supposedly absolves the sinful acts is what seems to contradict with the belief that ONLY confession and repentence to the Lord Jesus Christ can completely absolve anyone from sin.

Disclaimer: I am in NO WAY knowledgeable about Roman Catholicism. I am merely speculating on what I have picked up in pieces and some readings and I attended a mass once for a college assignment. I welcome teaching and correction directed IN LOVE.


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## kayte (Apr 21, 2008)

> *The Pope also recognizes that no matter how much he will let people know he is just a man some will still put him a pedistal *(sp). My priest stated it really well during our homily. The Pope is a man just like you and I. He puts on his pants just like you or I. He said the Pope was very shy, intellectual. The pope seems appreciative of the support for his visit but I didn't get the sense in watching him that he was saying all praise the king. His message was very powerful for catholics and non catholics. I love his message, When you have hope you live differently.
> 
> My grandmother is from the old school, she would kiss his ring. I ain't kissing his ring but I would show the man respect. I don't care for Bush but if I was in his presence I would show respect to the President of our great nation.
> __________________




I hear you...and that's what Imeant a lot of people regardless of their
religious background idolize him....and as also some Catholics with you as example........... would Not kiss his  ring or bow  

I stated very specifically...that's what was disturbing for,me
Kissing his ring.....bowing to him..as a physical form of worship 
and I also prefaced both posts by saying
_the Pope not only deseves respect but Kudos in what he did as directed by God_ unifying many of us worldwide with the message of God's peace
Will all due respect... that however was never the issue

I agree with what you say in being human.. he puts on his pants ..he cries ....is shy...behind closed doors.well,sure 
how amazing that would be since he clearly has the power to do this to say Do not worship me...I am a man.. as a  public action

Imagine how powerful that would be if he really feels strongly as it's inidicated below...or if it's just rhetoric


> *"The Pope also recognizes that no matter how much he will let people know he is just a man some will still put him a pedistal *([/B]



but his allowing these worship rituals ....to me...is not about respect or disrespect ...but of  Ego..and not about GOD
imho


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## didirose (Apr 21, 2008)

Here's a quote that best expresses the view on this matter.  Other than that view it how you wish:

_When I was first ordained a Catholic priest, it was the custom to kiss the bishop's ring while genuflecting on the left knee. This was the Catholic custom in the U.S.A. and Europe. Since the Second Vatican Council, this custom has changed. Bishops no longer expect anyone to kiss their ring. The origin of kissing the ring comes from the time when bishops were governors of territories. Catholic bishops are no longer temporal magistrates. It is expected that you shake his hand politely. That means that if he is a higher rank than you, you wait for him to extend his hand. Some Catholics, especially from southern Europe, will kiss the hand of a priest. It is a local custom. It is not the custom in the United States. There are good reasons to abandon the custom of kissing rings. One reason is an obvious health reason. It is simply not hygienic. Secondly, it detracts from the spirit of humility. Priests, Bishops and the Pope are servants. The Pope is a special case. As Catholics we see him as the Vicar of Christ on earth. It seems that, for a priest at least, it is still proper to genuflect on the right knee and kiss the Holy Father's hand or ring - whichever he extends. This also depends on the individual Pope. Before an audience with the Holy Father, people are directed to follow a certain protocol. I have not yet heard what the present Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI, has established as the proper protocol during private audiences. Certain other Christians seem to take offence at Catholic customs. We Catholics do not ask others to follow our customs. Quoting Holy Scripture inappropriately does nothing to advance knowledge and respect. We are not about to change and we do not expect other Christians to change their customs. Please be aware that the New Testament was compiled by the Catholic Church. Do you think that the Church would include a book that condemned it? We Americans are known, or should be known, for our respect of all people._

http://www.wikihow.com/Discussion:Address-Catholic-Clergy


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## divya (Apr 21, 2008)

Country gal said:


> Your statement was Please be Honest as if I was not being honest. Re read what you wrote. It may seem as if I am being on the defensive. I am probably just tired of disputing the same old myths and misconceptions.
> 
> "When the enemy wishes to spoil God's family, he employs two great means: illusions and misunderstandings..."       --Louisa Jaques, Jerusalem, 1939



Well, that's fine. However, different people have different experiences. Do understand that in your statements, you are also dismissing the beliefs of other Catholics.  Doing so in itself, creates misconceptions, illusions and misunderstandings. I'm sorry but there is absolutely nothing to spoil here as result has already taken place.


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## kayte (Apr 22, 2008)

_



When I was first ordained a Catholic priest, it was the custom to kiss the bishop's ring while genuflecting on the left knee. This was the Catholic custom in the U.S.A. and Europe. Since the Second Vatican Council, this custom has changed. Bishops no longer expect anyone to kiss their ring. The origin of kissing the ring comes from the time when bishops were governors of territories. Catholic bishops are no longer temporal magistrates. It is expected that you shake his hand politely. That means that if he is a higher rank than you, you wait for him to extend his hand. Some Catholics, especially from southern Europe, will kiss the hand of a priest. It is a local custom. It is not the custom in the United States. There are good reasons to abandon the custom of kissing rings. One reason is an obvious health reason. It is simply not hygienic. Secondly, it *detracts from the spirit of humility*. Priests, Bishops and the Pope are servants. The Pope is a special case. As Catholics we see him as the *Vicar of Christ on earth*. It seems that, for a priest at least, it is still proper to genuflect on the right knee and kiss the Holy Father's hand or ring - whichever he extends. *This also depends on the individual Pope.* Before an audience with the Holy Father, people are directed to follow a certain protocol. I have not yet heard what the present Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI, has established as the proper protocol during private audiences. *Certain other Christians seem to take offence at Catholic customs.* We Catholics do not ask others to follow our customs. *Quoting Holy Scripture inappropriately does nothing to advance knowledge and respect. We are not about to change and we do not expect other Christians to change their customs. Please be aware that the New Testament was compiled by the Catholic Church.* Do you think that the Church would include a book that condemned it? We Americans are known, or should be known, for our respect of all people.


Thank you for sharing this article and directly on topic. 

The misquoting scripture is an unfair generalization.Surely there are bilblical references that are not misquoted. That's a generic defence anyone can make about any situation.. 


Since this person is citing the Catholics as sole responsbilbity in construct of the New Testament ..may I offer a quote from Romans...it's no a misquote and it is entirely in context


Romans 3:10 >>






New American Standard Bible (©1995)
as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 

King James Bible
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 
American King James Version
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 
American Standard Version
as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one; 
Bible in Basic English
As it is said in the holy Writings, There is not one who does righteousness; 
Douay-Rheims Bible
As it is written: There is not any man just. 
Darby Bible Translation
according as it is written, There is not a righteous man, not even one; 
English Revised Version
as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one; 
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
as Scripture says, "Not one person has God's approval. 
Weymouth New Testament
Thus it stands written, "There is not one righteous man. 
Webster's Bible Translation
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: World English Bible
As it is written, "There is no one righteous; no, not one


Perceived as THE...Vicar of Christ?....Special case? The Holy Father
There is NO special case ..he is a man..a human being under the jurisdiction of God's principles as set in the New Testament..

There is ONE Holy Father...and that is the Creator.The spirit of humility does not negate respect due a person of character and of God. However...there is proper respect due ...and there is worship. 

Since every individual Pope has autonomy..the power to create personal policy......certainly the power to preempt television stations and has the President of the USA holding receptions...

I maintain...this Pope could impart a powerful message..by refusing to allow the practice of human worship and to allow has notrhing to do with respect..it is EGO or SELF.The fact that other Catholics take offense while some Chrisitians/other Protestants etc.... follow the practice means it is not neccesarily as much religious politic....as populist...   

And.. using the word genuflecting to spin semantically.....the obvious.... is just more rhetoric.


*genuflect*: *Definition* and Much More from Answers.com*genuflect* ( ) intr.v. , -flected , -flecting , -flects . To bend the knee or touch one knee to the floor or ground, as in worship.





[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=+2]*WORSHIP THE RIGHT GOD*[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The first commandment is "Worship no god but me" (Exodus 20:3). That looks easy enough. When was the last time you were seriously tempted to worship Baal or to offer incense to Jupiter or to drink a toast to Bacchus or to sacrifice a lamb to Zeus? Where have all the idols gone? Has the great Jehovah licked all his competition? Do people need only nine commandments nowadays[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]To worship any god other than the one true God leads to spiritual famine and finally to slavery. No substitute god is big enough to sustain the commitment of your life. The pages of history are littered with sad tales of victims who gave first-class loyalty to second-class causes that failed them.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Whatever you worship, regardless of its name, is your god. To worship anything is to treat it as being the greatest thing in your life, the center around which the rest of your interests revolve.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The Bible reminds you again and again that God is a jealous God, who will not share your affection with rivals (Exodus 34:14; Deuteronomy 4:24; 5-9; Joshua 24:19). [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Substitute gods bear many names.[/FONT]   
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][/FONT] 
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][/FONT] 
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Choose you this day whom you will serve, whether the true and living God of your ancestors or the gods of *self, *sex, and security, the gods of those in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord (Joshua 24:15).[/FONT]​
At the end of the day....I think the process of the initial question has led me to this..... 
As for me and my house we will serve the Lord

Click to expand...

_


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## Caramela (Apr 22, 2008)

Oh my.... this thread is interesting. I have nothing new to add. I don't agree with exhaulting the Pope. He is not the head of the church, Christ is.


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## kayte (Apr 22, 2008)

> Oh my.... this thread is interesting. I have nothing new to add. I don't agree with exhaulting the Pope. He is not the head of the church, Christ is.
> __________________
> _*"Love has nothing to do with what you are expecting to get - only what you are expecting to give - which is everything." *_*Katharine Hepburn*


 
 so I'm hijacking the thread momentarily..

WHY OH WHY Caramela..did you have to have this particular love quote as your signature  LOL! this is the second day in a row I saw that! It stopped me yesterday as I was up all night and decided  to blow off the primary relationship because of what I'm not getting.... and today preparing to do it all over again...I see that quote but this time..I learn its origin &...it's from _another_ Kate .....Kayte

gotta to re-think things now 
_sigh _


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## Caramela (Apr 22, 2008)

kayte said:


> so I'm hijacking the thread momentarily..
> 
> WHY OH WHY Caramela..did you have to have this particular love quote as your signature  LOL! this is the second day in a row I saw that! It stopped me yesterday as I was up all night and decided  to blow off the primary relationship because of what I'm not getting.... and today preparing to do it all over again...I see that quote but this time..I learn its origin &...it's from _another_ Kate .....Kayte
> 
> ...



Awww  Good luck


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## Trini"T" (Apr 22, 2008)

Keen said:


> Catholics participate in intercession all the time. Not just with the pope, but with the Saints and each other. I see people on this forum asking for prayers all the time.



I think the difference is that they are asking DEAD people to intercede for them.  Why would the current pope pray for the DEAD pope to intercede for him? 

I saw a bit of the coverage on NY1, these Catholic school girls were singing a song dedicated to the pope while waiting to see him and they referred to him as the "light of the world" and "Christ on earth" 

Like Countrygal was saying, I would definitely show respect but I can't bring myself to pay that much reverence to a human being and that goes for any other "celebrities"...I just can't get hype over them.


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## didirose (Apr 23, 2008)

KayteHere is the whole meaning of genuflect.  There are many different ways people genuflect throughout mass in the catholic church.  Specifically in both worship and respect.  I would thing during the early times of the church this was done many times to acknowledge respect to another person but today it not part of are culture at all.  Which probably makes it look very strange to those who were watching the scene with the pope:

Main Entry: gen·u·flect
Function: intransitive verb
Pronunciation: 'jen-y&-"flekt
Etymology: Late Latin genuflectere, from Latin genu knee + flectere to bend -- more at KNEE 
1 a : to bend the knee b : to touch the knee to the floor or ground especially in worship 
2 : to be servilely obedient or respectful 
- gen·u·flec·tion/"jen-y&-'flek-sh&n/ noun


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## didirose (Apr 23, 2008)

Vicar is used as an institutional term (in reference to the church) not to equate Christ.



Catechism on "Vicar of Christ":

882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful."[402] "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."[403] 

894 "The bishops, as vicars and legates of Christ, govern the particular Churches assigned to them by their counsels, exhortations, and example, but over and above that also by the authority and sacred power" which indeed they ought to exercise so as to edify, in the spirit of service which is that of their Master.[426]

From the Glossary at the back of the Catechism:
Vicar of Christ: A *title given to St. Peter*, head of the Twelve Apostles and to his successors;, the Popes; *"vicar" means one who stands in for or acts for another*.

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=137781


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## Crackers Phinn (Apr 23, 2008)

I visited Italy about 6 years ago including Rome and Vatican City.  I had very definite opinions on Catholicism before traveling and what I had discounted in the practice is how much Italian culture influences the religion.  

I'm not going to lie, I did believe that Catholics worshipped the pope and saints.  But when I got there and learned alot of the history of the culture independent of the religion, the 'oddities' such as kissing the popes ring and the rationale of asking the saints to forward on prayers makes sense. 

Had this country been founded by Italian slave owners, I think there would be a different slant on this conversation.


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## kayte (Apr 23, 2008)

> _*genuflect*: *Definition* and Much More from Answers.com__*genuflect* ( ) intr.v. , -flected , -flecting , -flects . To bend the knee or touch one knee to the floor or ground, *as in worship*._


 


> Main Entry: gen·u·flect
> Function: intransitive verb
> Pronunciation: 'jen-y&-"flekt
> Etymology: Late Latin genuflectere, from Latin genu knee + flectere to bend -- more at KNEE
> ...


 
_We are offerring definitons that both say the same thing!_ My point was that priest who wrote that narrative..hides nothing by not using the word worship...substituting.... genuflect... because essentialy bowing to him and kissing his ring amonts to that 
Worshipping am an instread of Christ....
I maintain it's more wrong 

Saying it's/was a means to respect ,and looks strange.
I maintain, human worship is worong

(QUOTE] 
I would thing during the early times of the church this was done many times to acknowledge respect to another person but today it not part of are culture at all. *Which probably makes it look very strange to those who were watching the scene with the pope*:
[/quote]


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## Farida (Apr 23, 2008)

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

If you study Catholic *doctrine*, (in the cathecism) nowhere will you see anything about worshiping the pope, having to kiss him, call him your holiness and him being Jesus.

Now, I believe the people (not all) have set him on a pedestal and made him to be more than just a human being, and the church, I feel, has done nothing to correct this. He is only human, and when you get treated as he does and have as much power as he does, it would take a lot for you to say, "no!" I feel the Catholic church failed in this respect.

Now, as for him being a nazi youth, read up on it. He joined when it was mandatory for all boys his age.


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## divya (Apr 23, 2008)

vivmaiko said:


> Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
> 
> If you study Catholic *doctrine*, (in the cathecism) nowhere will you see anything about worshiping the pope, having to kiss him, call him your holiness and him being Jesus.
> 
> ...




What about these quotes?

*Catholic Catechism, par. 882* The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, 'is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful.'[LG 23.] 'For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has* full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered.'* [LG 22; cf. CD 2,9.] 


But the Bible says...
Ephesians 1:22-23 (King James Version)
22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,  23Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.



*Catholic Catechism,* par. 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? [Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21: PL 3, 1169; De unit.: PL 4, 509-536.] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: *Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition*, *the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church.* He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. 

Recent support: 
6) "For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help towards salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained."
Vatican II 1965

But Bible says: 
Romans 10:9 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


*Catholic Catechism, par. 891 *'The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this *infallibility* in virtue of his office, when, as *supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful *- who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals.... The *infallibility *promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium,' above all in an Ecumenical Council. [LG 25; cf. Vatican Council I: DS 3074.] When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine 'for belief as being divinely revealed,' [DV 10 # 2.] and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions 'must be adhered to with the obedience of faith.' [LG 25 # 2.] *This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself. 
*

Where does the Bible teach that any man - called the pope - is infallible? Where does the Bible say that his words "extend as far as the deposit of the divine Revelation itself?" 

Much more here regarding the catechism here...
http://www.romancatholicteachings.com/catholic_catechism/catechism2.html


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## didirose (Apr 23, 2008)

kayte said:


> _We are offerring definitons that both say the same thing!_ My point was that priest who wrote that narrative..hides nothing by not using the word worship...substituting.... genuflect... because essentialy bowing to him and kissing his ring amonts to that
> Worshipping am an instread of Christ....
> I maintain it's more wrong
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Know we are not saying the same thing at all because I respect many men but I've never worshiped them.  That is how the people who practice it show respect to the head of the church, yet you choose to interpret how and why they do it in your own way.  Catholics worship God.  Genuflecting before a man is how I described it.  Kneeling is done in prayer before God and may also be done out of respect as illustrated in the case of the pope.  Putting up half a defintion only leads to half the truth.  

And yes I said it may look strange to you because obviously you are not of the faith, and it looks strange to catholics even in this country.  I've seen one religion practiced differently in reflection of a region's culture.  So that is where the "strange" came from but I apologize if you only highlighted that only for sarcasm.  

With that said, I'm out.  If you care to you can check out catechism, with the bible for a better analysis of the catholic church.   The internet also has great sources for getting the "catholic" point of view to compare with your own.  There has also been multiple threads here discussing the topic.


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## divya (Apr 23, 2008)

Keen said:


> Then why does protestants ask each other to pray for them? Catholics believes that Jesus is the only way as far as I know. I have not found any doctrine that says otherwise. Our "Act of Contrition" has no reference to the Pope.



In my faith, we pray for CHRIST to intercede on a other person's behalf because the Bible teaches it. Romans 10:9 - Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

However, within Catholicism, the Pope and priests are "given" a role belonging to Christ. Some Protestants - from Relaxer Rehab's response - also agree that man can intercede for man.


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## PaperClip (Apr 23, 2008)

divya said:


> In my faith, we pray for CHRIST to intercede on a other person's behalf because the Bible teaches it. Romans 10:9 - Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
> 
> However, within Catholicism, the Pope and priests are "given" a role belonging to Christ. Some Protestants - from Relaxer Rehab's response - also agree that man can intercede for man.


 






Just for clarity: when man intercedes for man, we're praying to the LORD JESUS CHRIST, not to another earthly man. That's what intercession is: to stand in the gap for another in prayer for help, strength, healing, a specific prayer request. It is NOT an intercession to ABSOLVE another from sin. Only Jesus Christ can do that.


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## divya (Apr 23, 2008)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Just for clarity: when man intercedes for man, we're praying to the LORD JESUS CHRIST, not to another earthly man. That's what intercession is: to stand in the gap for another in prayer for help, strength, healing, a specific prayer request. It is NOT an intercession to ABSOLVE another from sin. Only Jesus Christ can do that.



Ok, well we have a bit of a different understanding of the term, but I believe the general idea is the same.


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## kayte (Apr 23, 2008)

> *Kneeling is done in prayer before God* and may also be done out of respect as illustrated in the case of the pope. Putting up half a defintion only leads to half the truth.


 
We both posted definitions of the word Genuflect. 
*BOTH definitions..state genuflect as Worship*.......and for the record.....I did not "put up half a definition" .... I posted in entirety.
Where we diverge is on Semantics..and Perception..or in that article Spinning.. 
I already said as much ....btw,that narrative by the priest...the narrative posted earlier is biased and angry and defensive...and generalizes 
....making his article...his own hidden agenda..he certainly has one ...
The Catholic Church versus THEM.. ironically fanning the very flames he accuses THEM of doing.

The spin is this ....by using the word* genuflecting* and not saying the more loaded word....*worship*....which is stated in BOTH definitions that you and I posted ....is an attempt to broaden the concept in order to make it "acceptable" ....._spinning _
IF the word *Worship* _was_ used as would be proper as it is both definitions instead of the word ...G*enuflect...*AND
in the context you offered.... saying *genuflect* is a form of respect.. ...here's what it looks like

We worship before the Pope as a form of respect....
People would bristle at the idea..which is _why _the word worship is *not *being used .....
your assertion that the definition genuflect offered by me in a half fashion but ...as I already said... is not only not true_.....but even if it was_ ..it _still_ would not be relevant..or important

call genuflecting whatever you want 
bending on the kneee
respecting 
bowing
etc etc 
it's just merely arguing Semantics or word defnitions
_However..._ignoring and evading ...the more obvious word *WORSHIP* 
...even though that is what is being done....
....THAT....is the spin ..the lie......

The reason it looks strange to me ...seeing people bow in front of the Pope....is not because of my unfamiliarity with Catholic Culture...but because it is WRONG to my own spirit..it's jarring..... which is why I reached out to a a forum of those who adore Christ.
.....Christ.......not their religions

I am not saying the Pope is not worthy of respect 
What I am saying is he is not worthy of _worship_

Let's call it what is ....it's_ worshipping_ as included in both defnitions
and you call this "respecting"...
Certainly
& I agree to disagree.

*Kneeling is done in prayer before God and may also be done out of respect as illustrated in the case of the pope*

*and may also be done ????*
who is giving permission for this? Certainly people can give license ..to anything ....does it make it... ..right?

"Kneeling is done in prayer before God" ...we agree here....
Where we disagree.... I say.... kneeling in prayer is done ONLY before God 
or Kneeling in prayer is done before God..ONLY

Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and HIM ONLY....
THIS is the law I recognize......


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## didirose (Apr 24, 2008)

^^^

Respect does not equate worship.

Homonyms are part of the english language
(e.g.  lie - can mean not to tell the truth or to lay down, but laying down doesn't mean you are telling the truth)

Catholics choose whether or not they bow.  It is a choice and they are not forced to do so.  I'm not sure how you read and I apologize for any confusion on that part.

In any case, be blessed on your own spiritual journey.


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## kayte (Apr 24, 2008)

> Respect does not equate worship.


 
I agree....unforunately the two can and have become confused....

genuflecting-bowing down as/and worshipping are linked and are synonyms which means words of like action.
Whereas as telling a lie and resting on a bed ...lying.... are completely different actions...though the words sound the same and those are homonyms...
it's again evading the legitimate use of the word worship

The word Genuflect literally means "To bow or kneel before God." 

Whether it's pleasant to admit it or not,human beings..DO worship the Pope...who is _another _human being ..not targeting Catholics... many people irregardless of religion worship him.....
it's insidious.... idol worship... we are not always aware of it
With a worldwide audience..the Pope really could stop enabling this..if he chose.He does not choose.

Be blessed on your journey as well.....you are clearly devoted & spiritual 
and thank you for all your viewpoints ..I've learned a lot


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## Farida (Apr 25, 2008)

divya said:


> What about these quotes?
> 
> *Catholic Catechism, par. 882* The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, 'is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful.'[LG 23.] 'For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has* full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered.'* [LG 22; cf. CD 2,9.]
> 
> ...



All these quotes give him power, none say he is Jesus or that he is to be worshiped. They say he is infallible (not on all matters - you can research further on papal infallibility) and that he receives divine revelation. How many people claim God talked to them and revealed something.

I personally don't believe all this, but I'm just letting you know, it is the people who treat him like a God, but the religion does not mandate that type of behavior. I'm sad they are permissive about it.


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## divya (Apr 26, 2008)

vivmaiko said:


> All these quotes give him power, none say he is Jesus or that he is to be worshiped. They say he is infallible (not on all matters - you can research further on papal infallibility) and that he receives divine revelation. How many people claim God talked to them and revealed something.
> 
> I personally don't believe all this, but I'm just letting you know, it is the people who treat him like a God, but the religion does not mandate that type of behavior. I'm sad they are permissive about it.



1. However, the fact that the Lord has talked to you and revealed something does NOT make you infallible.  To belief that the pope is infallible within his position not Biblical, but it is Catholic doctrine - clearly in the catechism. 

2. What about the belief posted that the only way to heaven is through the Catholic church? That is also false, but is Catholic doctrine as it is within the catechism.

3. What about the belief that the pope has full, supreme and universal power over the church? That is not Biblical because the Bible says Jesus is the head of the church. 

4.  What about the belief that Mary committed no sin? That is also in the catechism, and is not Biblical.  Christ is the One who sinlessly walked the earth.

That being said I understand if you do not believe this, but these doctrines are what the Catholic church teach in the catechism.  These teachings are held despite the Bible strongly teaching otherwise.


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## angenoir (Apr 26, 2008)

Interesting thread. Interesting arguments on both sides.

I am Catholic and I can tell you, we do *not *worship the Pope. God is the only person Catholics worship.
I have very deep respect for the Pope as the head of my church and yup I would probably kiss his ring if I met him, because it's a traditional sign of respect. The ring is worn by whoever is Pope. It is like a symbol for the head of the Church. 

It is NOT worship and we never for one minute even imagine we are worshiping him. The Pope is human, a man. And we know it. He sins like everyone else. But still he is the head of our church and therefore we accord him due respect.
We also believe that God gives him help and grace to lead the church just like other ladies here believe that God gives their pastor grace to lead the flock.

I understand that people looking in would ask questions and that's ok. BUT why would you insist on saying we worship when we ourselves are telling you we don't. 

PS: Did you know that in some parts of Africa and even Asia when children are greeting their elders traditionally they kneel or bow or prostrate themselves or do some other sign. It's not worship. It's just deep respect and linked to tradition.
When people greet royalty they bow really deep or they curtsey. It's just a traditional sign of respect.
The CC has 2,000 years of tradition.

PPS: What would happen if you didn't kiss his ring? Nothing at all. I think you can even shake his hand if you want to. Many people meet the Pope and neither kiss his ring nor bow. It's all good.


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## divya (Apr 26, 2008)

angenoir said:


> Interesting thread. Interesting arguments on both sides.



Can you answer any of the doctrinal questions based on the catechism?


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## kayte (Apr 26, 2008)

> PS: Did you know that in some parts of Africa and even Asia when children are greeting their elders traditionally they kneel or bow or prostrate themselves or do some other sign. It's not worship. It's just deep respect and linked to tradition.
> When people greet royalty they bow really deep or they curtsey. It's just a traditional sign of respect.
> The CC has 2,000 years of tradition.


 
_Come onnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn_

That's like saying......

PS. Did you know in New York City and in Beverly Hills ..actors ..actually bow after a performance..to the audience.. Or a conductor bows to his musicians....or ballerinas curtsy....or the waiters in 20 star restaurants bow after taking an order... 

it's out of context....as are ancestors..elders...etc 

bowing before a ..religious icon..... any religious icon ...is _loaded_
whether it is the Dalai Lama.. The Pope... or a Hindu statue... 

_I _did not make up the term genuflect. 
this is part of the Catholic vocabulary in describing its respect etiquette to the POPE ...and genuflect means worship....
Curious how can the church be unaware of ...in denial of and enable this?
In the bible....even_...angels_ ...do not allow this practice and they say why...they do not want to be confused for God

Anyways ...pardon the pun...but... I am bowing out of this thread...

I might feel compelled to address the question directly to the POPE
Why do you allow people to bow to YOU and kiss YOUR ring? How does this bring one closer ..to God? 

I'd be very interested in his answer.


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## angenoir (Apr 27, 2008)

BTW from my understanding genuflection is simply means bowing by bending one knee. Its does not specify to whom. See wiki dictionary: 

_*Genuflection* (or *genuflexion*) (Latin genuflexio "bending of the knee") is an act of reverence in __Christianity__, consisting of falling onto (usually) one __knee__. Today the term is used mostly in the __Latin rite__ of the __Catholic Church__ and in churches of the __Anglican Communion__._ 

The reason I pulled up tradition to try and explain the kissing of the ring etc is because that's really what it's about and there could be I guess 1 million other ways of expressing our respect but somehow this is the one that's been handed down over the centuries.
The people you see being so ecstatic when they see the Pope, well, when they go home believe no one think they saw Christ that would be crazy. But they're really happy they saw the Pope.

Ofcourse Christ is the head of the Church! He is the one wo instituted it. And we firmly believe that. But the Pope is the spiritual leader of the Church here. Most churches have a bishop or someone who leads right, so for us its the Pope who is the head of the universal church. You remember when Christ renamed Peter and said on this rock I will build my church and then later He also said feed my sheep, feed my lambs. Well, Peter was chosen by Christ to lead all the apostles and the early church, and after his death, someone was chosen to succeed him and so forth down the ages. 2000 years.

About refering the Pope as his holiness. It does NOT mean we think the pope is without fault or sin. Nope. He is a human being after all. It's a term. In my opinion it falls right in with your highness, your honour etc...

People will believe what they want to regardless of what you try to explain. But in all honesty things are really as we tell you. I hope the other ladies come in and maybe they can add a voice.

Be blessed ladies!


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## divya (Apr 27, 2008)

kayte said:


> _Come onnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn_
> 
> *That's like saying......
> 
> ...



I agree...


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## PaperClip (Apr 27, 2008)

kayte said:


> In the bible....even_...angels_ ...do not allow this practice and they say why...*they do not want to be confused for God*


 
Kinda half browsing this thread and I saw this statement (esp. the bolded) and I had to let you know: you just said something SO POWERFUL RIGHT THERE....seriously....


Anybody or anything that's not pointing us DIRECTLY to the Lord Jesus Christ needs to be avoided at any cost.


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## Crackers Phinn (Apr 27, 2008)

angenoir said:


> I understand that people looking in would ask questions and that's ok.* BUT why would you insist on saying we worship when we ourselves are telling you we don't? *



That is a reasonable question.


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## alexstin (Apr 28, 2008)

angenoir said:


> BTW from my understanding genuflection is simply means bowing by bending one knee. Its does not specify to whom. See wiki dictionary:
> 
> _*Genuflection* (or *genuflexion*) (Latin genuflexio "bending of the knee") is an act of reverence in __Christianity__, consisting of falling onto (usually) one __knee__. Today the term is used mostly in the __Latin rite__ of the __Catholic Church__ and in churches of the __Anglican Communion__._
> 
> ...



The only thing is Christ did not say He would build His church on Peter. It was the revelation that Peter had _that Jesus was the Christ and the Son of God_ that Christ built His church on 

*Matt16:16-18: And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

	Mat 16:17		And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

	Mat 16:18		And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
*


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## Caramela (Apr 28, 2008)

alexstin said:


> The only thing is Christ did not say He would build His church on Peter. It was the revelation that Peter had _that Jesus was the Christ and the Son of God_ that Christ built His church on
> 
> *Matt16:16-18: And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
> 
> ...



right. This is true. That "rock" is the solid confession of Peter that Jesus Christ is Lord, son of the living God. The "rock" is not Peter himself.


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## didirose (Apr 29, 2008)

angenoir said:


> BTW from my understanding genuflection is simply means bowing by bending one knee. Its does not specify to whom. See wiki dictionary:
> 
> _*Genuflection* (or *genuflexion*) (Latin genuflexio "bending of the knee") is an act of reverence in __Christianity__, consisting of falling onto (usually) one __knee__. Today the term is used mostly in the __Latin rite__ of the __Catholic Church__ and in churches of the __Anglican Communion__._
> 
> ...



I agree  and I add it important sometimes to take into account both traditions and language the bible was written.  The goal should not be simply to interpret the bible just for yourself but to understand the context it was written in as well as the audience it was written for.

With that said here is quote taken from catholic.com further discussing Peter and the rock.  I was always taught that Peter or Petros in Koine Greek (language of the New Testament ) means rock.  Also note that Jesus and his disciples spoke to each other in the Aramaic language.  The bible was written in Koine Greek because that was the common language of the time.  Let's take a closer look then at the Aramaic language: 

_
"We know that Jesus spoke Aramaic because some of his words are preserved for us in the Gospels. Look at Matthew 27:46, where he says from the cross, ‘Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?’ That isn’t Greek; it’s Aramaic, and it means, ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’ 

"What’s more," I said, "in Paul’s epistles—four times in Galatians and four times in 1 Corinthians—we have the Aramaic form of Simon’s new name preserved for us. In our English Bibles it comes out as Cephas. That isn’t Greek. That’s a transliteration of the Aramaic word Kepha (rendered as Kephas in its Hellenistic form). 

"And what does Kepha mean? It means a rock, the same as petra. (It doesn’t mean a little stone or a pebble. What Jesus said to Simon in Matthew 16:18 was this: ‘You are Kepha, and on this kepha I will build my Church.’ 

"When you understand what the Aramaic says, you see that Jesus was equating Simon and the rock; he wasn’t contrasting them. We see this vividly in some modern English translations, which render the verse this way: ‘You are Rock, and upon this rock I will build my church.’ In French one word, pierre, has always been used both for Simon’s new name and for the rock." 

"Greek and Aramaic have different grammatical structures. In Aramaic you can use kepha in both places in Matthew 16:18. In Greek you encounter a problem arising from the fact that nouns take differing gender endings. 

"You have masculine, feminine, and neuter nouns. The Greek word petra is feminine. You can use it in the second half of Matthew 16:18 without any trouble. But you can’t use it as Simon’s new name, because you can’t give a man a feminine name—at least back then you couldn’t. You have to change the ending of the noun to make it masculine. When you do that, you get Petros, which was an already-existing word meaning rock. 

"I admit that’s an imperfect rendering of the Aramaic; you lose part of the play on words. In English, where we have ‘Peter’ and ‘rock,’ you lose all of it. But that’s the best you can do in Greek." _

Further explanation from the same site of Peter's role and the papacy:

_Beyond the grammatical evidence, the structure of the narrative does not allow for a downplaying of Peter’s role in the Church. Look at the way Matthew 16:15-19 is structured. After Peter gives a confession about the identity of Jesus, the Lord does the same in return for Peter. Jesus does not say, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are an insignificant pebble and on this rock I will build my Church. . . . I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven." Jesus is giving Peter a three-fold blessing, including the gift of the keys to the kingdom, not undermining his authority. To say that Jesus is downplaying Peter flies in the face of the context. Jesus is installing Peter as a form of chief steward or prime minister under the King of Kings by giving him the keys to the kingdom. As can be seen in Isaiah 22:22, kings in the Old Testament appointed a chief steward to serve under them in a position of great authority to rule over the inhabitants of the kingdom. Jesus quotes almost verbatum from this passage in Isaiah, and so it is clear what he has in mind. He is raising Peter up as a father figure to the household of faith (Is. 22:21), to lead them and guide the flock (John 21:15-17). This authority of the prime minister under the king was passed on from one man to another down through the ages by the giving of the keys, which were worn on the shoulder as a sign of authority. Likewise, the authority of Peter has been passed down for 2000 years by means of the papacy._


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## kayte (Apr 29, 2008)

*Acts 10*
*King James*

1There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, 
2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. 
3He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. 
4And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God. 
5And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter: 
6He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do. 
7And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually; 
8And when he had declared all these things unto them, he sent them to Joppa. 
9On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour: 
10And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, 
11And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: 
12Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. 
13And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. 
14But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. 
15And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. 
16This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven. 
17Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate, 
18And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there. 
19While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee. 
20Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them. 
21Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come? 
22And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee. 
23Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him. 
24And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and he had called together his kinsmen and near friends. 
25And as Peter was coming in, *Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. *26But *Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.*


*Contemporary English Version*
When Peter arrived, Cornelius greeted him. Then* he knelt at Peter's feet* and started worshiping him. 26But Peter took hold of him and said*, "Stand up! I am nothing more than a human." *

*Wycliffe New Testament* 
And it was done, when Peter was come in [when Peter had entered], *Cornelius came meeting him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. *
*26 But Peter raised him, and said, Arise thou, also I myself am a man, as thou. [Peter soothly raised him, saying, Rise, and I myself am a man, as and thou.] *

*New International*
Cornelius was waiting for them and had called together his relatives and close friends.25 *When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, fell at his feet, and worshiped him.26 But Peter helped him up, saying, "Stand up. I too am only a human."*


*The Message*
*God Plays No Favorites*
23-26The next morning he got up and went with them. Some of his friends from Joppa went along. A day later they entered Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had his relatives and close friends waiting with him. *The minute Peter came through the door, Cornelius was up on his feet greeting him—and then down on his face worshiping him! Peter pulled him up and said, "None of that—I'm a man and only a man, no different from you." *


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## alexstin (Apr 29, 2008)

didirose said:


> I agree  and I add it important sometimes to take into account both traditions and language the bible was written.  The goal should not be simply to interpret the bible just for yourself but to understand the context it was written in as well as the audience it was written for.
> 
> With that said here is quote taken from catholic.com further discussing Peter and the rock.  I was always taught that Peter or Petros in Koine Greek (language of the New Testament ) means rock.  Also note that Jesus and his disciples spoke to each other in the Aramaic language.  The bible was written in Koine Greek because that was the common language of the time.  Let's take a closer look then at the Aramaic language:
> 
> ...




Believers have the keys to the Kingdom, not one man. Sorry, but what you've written flies in the face of context. To say that Christ who is the foundation of the church then turns around and built His church on Peter is false and to say that the authority Peter had has been past down to the Popes only?erplexed  For one, Church is not a religious term. The ecclesia which is the word for church were those called out ones who made sure that the will of the king was taken to all. Caesar had a church and Christ had His church. 

There are many differences between the message of the Catholic church and the message that Jesus preached. Shouldn't they have the same focus if indeed, the Pope had authority handed down from Jesus Himself to lead "the church"?  

Just taking something as simple as Jesus' crucifixion. That was an awesome sacriifice and I am grateful to my Lord for doing it but why didn't Jesus tell the thousands of people that followed Him that He was going to be crucified? Why did He only tell His dicsiples about His crucifixion? Why wasn't it something that He concentrated on after He rose from the dead?

 The cruxificion is something that is central to the Catholic church(other churches too but this is Catholic thread LOL!),right?

Why did Jesus come to earth? He said it in His own words. What is the Catholic church's position on this? It should be the same as Jesus' position.

It just seems that if you're someone's chief representative then you would focus on the things the one you were representing focused on.


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## Caramela (Apr 29, 2008)

alexstin said:


> [/B]
> 
> Believers have the keys to the Kingdom, not one man. Sorry, but what you've written flies in the face of context. To say that Christ who is the foundation of the church then turns around and built His church on Peter is false and to say that the authority Peter had has been past down to the Popes only?erplexed  For one, Church is not a religious term. The ecclesia which is the word for church were those called out ones who made sure that the will of the king was taken to all. Caesar had a church and Christ had His church.
> 
> ...



Excellent post!


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## didirose (Apr 29, 2008)

alexstin said:


> [/B]
> 
> Believers have the keys to the Kingdom, not one man. Sorry, To say that Christ who is the foundation of the church then turns around and built His church on Peter is false and to say that the authority Peter had has been past down to the Popes only?erplexed  For one, Church is not a religious term. The ecclesia which is the word for church were those called out ones who made sure that the will of the king was taken to all. Caesar had a church and Christ had His church.
> 
> ...


 
For clarification purposes note that I clearly said that this was a quote from catholic.com.  So what you say I wrote I did not.  I added  the quote in context of the topic in question which was in regards to Peter.

To answer the bolded please refer to the bible for the Catholic position, which specifically uses the words of Jesus.  

In response to the red, I'm not the pope, but I would imagine that he would say his focus is also on the word of Christ.  But I'm sure you can write to any archdiocese for further clarification.  You're saying his focus is on something else is your opinion but those who are Catholic would think otherwise.


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## alexstin (Apr 29, 2008)

didirose said:


> *For clarification purposes note that I clearly said that this was a quote from catholic.com.  So what you say I wrote I did not.  I added  the quote in context of the topic in question which was in regards to Peter.*
> To answer the bolded please refer to the bible for the Catholic position, which specifically uses the words of Jesus.
> 
> In response to the red, I'm not the pope, but I would imagine that he would say his focus is also on the word of Christ.  But I'm sure you can write to any archdiocese for further clarification.  You're saying his focus is on something else is your opinion but those who are Catholic would think otherwise.



My apologies

As far as referring to the bible for the Catholics position on why Jesus came to earth...I just want to know the church's position. I don't attend Mass so I have no way of knowing what they teach on that specific point. Is there a website that addresses that specifically?

As far as your last statement, so what do Catholics focus on specifically in the word?


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## didirose (Apr 29, 2008)

alexstin said:


> My apologies
> 
> As far as referring to the bible for the Catholics position on why Jesus came to earth...I just want to know the church's position. I don't attend Mass so I have no way of knowing what they teach on that specific point. Is there a website that addresses that specifically?
> 
> *As far as your last statement, so what do Catholics focus on?*




JESUS!  Believe it or not, that is our focus.
(no sarcasm involved in this answer, it is what we believe)

Your question to me implied otherwise but now I understand that you are not familiar with the Catholic church.  

Again our focus is on the word of Jesus our mass illustrates this in two parts through the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist.  If you read the bible than all that Catholics believe will be revealed to you, we don't focus all of our beliefs on a few verses we use the whole thing.  Asking me to explain more would be asking me to break down the mass in minute parts and explain each part in reference to the bible.  It's doable but I don't think we want it in a thread about the Pope.  

Their are many websites to give you more expert clarification this link will take you to some of them or just do a google search:
http://www.catholicity.com/links/135/

You can also search hear on lhcf because there was an entire thread dedicated to answering questions on catholicism.


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