# "Why do so many blacks prefer straight hair?"



## preciouslove0x (Jun 26, 2010)

Please don't shoot at me. Just curious. 


Have you ever heard a YT woman say that they prefer kinky textured hair? I ask because I was talking to one of my YT best friends earlier today about the subject. She asked me why so many blacks prefer straight hair (we're extremely close so we talk about everything under the sun, in other words I took no offense). Is it because "they are able to achieve it" and if they couldn't, like YT people can't achieve kinky hair, "would they still prefer it?"  What are your thoughts? I never thought about it before and don't have an opinion just yet. I do personally prefer straight hair (so obviously that's not why I went natural). But would we prefer it if we couldn't achieve it? 

No bickering please (and if you don't like this post then please don't comment)


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## SleekandBouncy (Jun 26, 2010)

Obviously much of it is the whole "blackness" being inferior so by extension straighter hair/looser curls are more desirable. If we naturally had straight hair that wouldn't be an issue.

In general straight or wavy-straight hair is preferred amongst a lot of the white women I know. There's even a complex around curly hair amongst many Jewish American women. Then of course you have certain Latino women like Dominicans and PR who generally prefer straight hair/excel in the straightening of hair. 
And let's not forget that in corporate American culture straight hair is often seen as more professional than the "casual" and "wild" look of curly hair :/

Straight hair is just the most popular image people are exposed to. Naturally preferences will be influenced by that. 
So yeah it's all of that.


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## southerncitygirl (Jun 26, 2010)

because through colonization, slavery, reconstruction, segregation, and post-traumatic slave disorder whites have brainwashed us to believe that the only beautiful hair is straight hair....thank goodness on this board we know better but many of us think straight is the only way to go. not to mention that most of people of color in the mainstream media/entertainment don;t have natural hair cause it would limit the amount of work they would get cause yt/ jewish men run these industries and think they know what all of american wants to see. your yt friend was a complete idiot for asking this...white folks are always trying to act like like they dont have a clue to what time it is......

please know before the controversy gets started that I think all hair types are beautiful but at least once in life as an adult i think all black women should expierience their God-given texture. I have many friend with gorg relaxed hair its just that I choose to be natural and straighten when the mood strikes me, giving me the best of both worlds.


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## NYAmicas (Jun 26, 2010)

Other than the usual reasons given,*I think *people are attracted to something other. Besides,  I like how I look with my hair straightened.


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## preciouslove0x (Jun 26, 2010)

southerncitygirl said:


> because through colonization, slavery, reconstruction, segregation, and post-traumatic slave disorder whites have brainwashed us to believe that the only beautiful hair is straight hair....thank goodness on this board we know better but many of us think straight is the only way to go. not to mention that most of people of color in the mainstream media/entertainment don;t have natural hair cause it would limit the amount of work they would get cause yt/ jewish men run these industries and think they know what all of american wants to see. *your yt friend was a complete idiot for asking this...*white folks are always trying to act like like they dont have a clue to what time it is......
> 
> please know before the controversy gets started that I think all hair types are beautiful but at least once in life as an adult i think all black women should expierience their God-given texture. I have many friend with gorg relaxed hair its just that I choose to be natural and straighten when the mood strikes me, giving me the best of both worlds.




i was really appreciating your post until i read this part. ouch! erplexed


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## UniquelyDivine (Jun 26, 2010)

I used to prefer straight hair but never knew why...I think it was because I never knew how many awesome things I can do with my hair. I love the feel of my curly NG  now and can't keep my hands out of it and I rocked a wavy/curly/ crinkly style today and I was throwing my lil head around like I was something special   whew don't let me get to MBL and do that,,, won't be able to tell me nothing ya hear!!


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## DDTexlaxed (Jun 26, 2010)

For me, strait hair was just easier to care for. It had nothing to do with brain washing or self hatred.   I was relaxed at an early age so I guess it was all I knew. I had been traumatized at an early age when I was natural with long hair. I was so tender headed and all my mom did was hot comb my hair. I still remember the burned hair smell.  I would ideally love long natural hair, so that is a future goal of mine.


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## LittleLuxe (Jun 26, 2010)

To be honest I think straight hair is visually prominent in practically every race (no one shoot me either, I'm getting to my point) you rarely see white girls going out for perms anymore, Asian woman's hair is naturally straight and very few try to attain curly hair on a daily basis, same goes for Indian women - long straight healthy hair, so perhaps we are mimicking others - who knows. I think for many women it's simply preferable for maintenance or styling purposes and it's easier if they don't know how to care for their natural hair or want to take the time.

Straight hair for me was simply a means to attain a hairstyle. While I could have kinky hair and heat-train it straight or even straighten it when I see fit I'm lazy and I don't have the energy for that kind of effort. Hell a part of me is dying for my hair to be long so I don't have to spend as much time styling it (because then it can just hang pretty with curls on the ends or etc.) Straight hair offers me more versatility and I am able to perform a number of different styles without having to do a pre-step. I also have the pleasure of not having to worry about SSK's, on the flip I do have to worry more about protein and maintenance, relaxing when it's time and etc.


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## LittleLuxe (Jun 26, 2010)

Oh and I also agree about the no bickering, let's keep the discussion clean with no hurt feelings


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## EbonyCPrincess (Jun 26, 2010)

Interesting question.  Now that I'm seeing SO many women go natural...I don't know that I do prefer *straight* hair.  I think I actually prefer curly because for years I didn't know that non-mixed (using the term loosely) black women actually have 2c or 3a/b hair.  Yes...I was ignorant and thought only the "mixed chicks" or latina women had that texture.  DON'T SHOOT ME EITHER....I KNOW BETTER NOW.  However I certainly don't have that curl pattern(4b/c) and so for me, black women with naturally curly hair is more desirable.  I find myself wishing I had that hair type, but even as a kid I never lusted after type 1 hair!  lol.  I was natural up until my very late teens, and I loved my thickness....and I will say even now that I am relaxed, I prefer the 3's over my natural 4b, although since 4 is what I have, 4 is what I'll appreciate.

I definitely agree with someone's comment about kinky hair being viewed as non-professional, or rebellious, or whatever.  I would wear a flexirod/strawset to work or on an interview, but generally I would feel uncomfortable about rocking an afro with my 4b/c texture in a professional setting.  WHY?????  I have absolutely no idea...I wish it wasn't, and I'm SO glad so many women are natural now to help change this.  Despite my decision to stay relaxed I absolutely love seeing women who are proudly natural....although I don't appreciate being called inferior or less black (etc.) because of my decision.


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## chrisanddonniesmommy (Jun 26, 2010)

She knew. She wanted to see how you would react. Don't fall for that "little Miss Innocent way of asking questions that have been answered". She wanted validation for her whiteness. Watch her.


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## hasabe (Jun 26, 2010)

Fanon _Black Skin, White Masks_


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## twists (Jun 26, 2010)

I wouldn't say that many blacks prefer straight hair, but since we can achieve the look, why not? 

Also, if many blacks did prefer straight hair it could just be nothing more than personal preference. Just because we have a kinky texture doesn't mean we have to keep it that way all the time.


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## preciouslove0x (Jun 26, 2010)

chrisanddonniesmommy said:


> She knew. She wanted to see how you would react. Don't fall for that "little Miss Innocent way of asking questions that have been answered". She wanted validation for her whiteness. Watch her.



 I've known this girl for years. She was truly curious. I guess I might add that we were laughing about how in high school when I use to wear a straight long weave EVERYDAY for four years. Today was the first day she saw me with my natural hair.

But then again... you never know


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## NJoy (Jun 26, 2010)

Personally, I prefer to wear straight or loose curl styles because it looks best on me based on my physical attributes such as face shape, height, neck, etc.  For instance, a straight look slims my round face visually.  Any bulk makes me look like a tankhead.  Um...no. That's my brother.  

Wish I had a deep answer that would properly represent blacks that prefer straight hair rolleyes but, *shrugs*  I guess my answer is personal preference.


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## southerncitygirl (Jun 26, 2010)

chrisanddonniesmommy said:


> She knew. She wanted to see how you would react. Don't fall for that "little Miss Innocent way of asking questions that have been answered". She wanted validation for her whiteness. Watch her.


 

I agree...she aint slick!!! Curly hair is a dominant trait, yt women fry their hair daily with a flat iron to mask the curl and suffer excessive heat damage, breakage and split ends.

I think its human nature to want what you dont have but yt's have consistently made a point of making us feel inadeqate over our God given features and attributes.....hair, buts, lips, etc.


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## LittleLuxe (Jun 26, 2010)

preciouslove0x said:


> I've known this girl for years. She was truly curious. I guess I might add that we were laughing about how in high school when I use to wear a straight long weave EVERYDAY for four years. Today was the first day she saw me with my natural hair.



Lol, I think folks forget that other races get as curious about us as we do about them (I liked the thread about whether other races used moisturizer), sometimes people are genuinely curious but don't know how to pose a question or make a comment without fear of offending or being labeled anything. 

I think sometimes you just have to listen with an open heart and be willing to answer a question or two, remember if you don't grow up knowing something you can be bewildered to how it works. Such as my white friend asking me several times how exactly a relaxer worked.


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## chrisanddonniesmommy (Jun 26, 2010)

preciouslove0x said:


> I've known this girl for years. She was truly curious. I guess I might add that we were laughing about how in high school when I use to wear a straight long weave EVERYDAY for four years. Today was the first day she saw me with my natural hair.
> 
> But then again... you never know




Still be careful. White privilege isn't alleviated through friendship or other relationships. It will be pulled out when necessary and beneficial to the person, regardless of his or her friends, spouses/lovers, etc.

Next thing you know other "innocent" questions will arise, like "Why do black people want light skin?" or "Why are black people so loud?" Remember, you can always say that you aren't the spokeswoman for black people.


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## ThePerfectScore (Jun 26, 2010)

I'll just copy and modify what I wrote in regards to my Interracial dating blog entry:

[This is] the same thing that racist have been doing to us since forever. Placing a hierarchy on race. It's okay to acknowledge differences, because there are physical and cultural differences between the races, but don't rank one race better than the other because it's just not true. 

so just like other posters have said- straight hair is the antithesis of kinky curly hair that people of African decent have. Since in the racial ranking throughout history is white deemed good and black deemed bad, having features that closely reassemble what is _good_ in society is valued and praised. 

This reminds me of this episode of Tyra where this woman was bragging about having, "the white girl flow" meaning that her hair was bone straight and could swing around. My issue with it is not liking straight hair, but more so the reasons _why_ a black person likes straight hair. Do they like having straight hair because it is not ethnic and is closer to the white ideal? Or do they like straight hair, just to like straight hair? But the thing about it is, we've been so inundated with the eurocentric ideal of beauty that it is hard to isolate influences. Perhaps to some extent we all have been exposed to racism that we no longer notice when we are being influenced by it. Racism becomes invisible due to repeat exposure. White features become the normal and the standard, while any thing that deviates from it is deemed deviant and bad.


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## tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT (Jun 26, 2010)

i am so in love with my mini' black panthers on here


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## Hairsofab (Jun 26, 2010)

White people can acheive kinky hair if they wanted, they just don't want it, right now anyway.


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## NeauxOneCurr (Jun 26, 2010)

preciouslove0x said:


> Please don't shoot at me. Just curious.
> 
> 
> Have you ever heard a YT woman say that they prefer kinky textured hair? I ask because I was talking to one of my YT best friends earlier today about the subject. She asked me why so many blacks prefer straight hair (we're extremely close so we talk about everything under the sun, in other words I took no offense). Is it because "they are able to achieve it" and if they couldn't, like YT people can't achieve kinky hair, "would they still prefer it?"  What are your thoughts? I never thought about it before and don't have an opinion just yet. I do personally prefer straight hair (so obviously that's not why I went natural). But would we prefer it if we couldn't achieve it?
> ...



The bolded leads me to believe you know exactly why.... but for those don't know...

Colonization

it's pretty sad too....


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## tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT (Jun 26, 2010)

i had a professor last year that said it is a "cultural norm" for blacks to be both late and loud.

*
but on topic:  DO BLACK MEN PREFER STRAIGHT HAIR?*


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## kmn1980 (Jun 26, 2010)

ThePerfectScore said:


> I'll just copy and modify what I wrote in regards to my Interracial dating blog entry:
> 
> [This is] the same thing that racist have been doing to us since forever. Placing a hierarchy on race. It's okay to acknowledge differences, because there are physical and cultural differences between the races, but don't rank one race better than the other because it's just not true.
> 
> ...



ITA. I call it "the why behind the why." 

The following commentary I found on another site (non-hair related) and it pretty much sums up my opinion on the subject. Since the OP wants everyone to play nice, I feel that this is a safer option for me because if I say what's really on my mind...well....trust me. Here goes:



> I posted this in another thread a while I do. So I'm posting it here as I  see it is fitting. Let me first say, whatever you do is your  business...and it doesn't matter what you think, but that you think,  critically and make informed choices. When I was little girl, I didn't  even know the texture of my hair, I didn't know what was in relaxers, I  didn't know a lot... Just like I didn't know what was in processed food,  what ingredients on the back of products meant. But now that I am older  I feel that knowing better is doing better...and a lot of us just don't  know...so how can we do better? Some of us think we know...so again,  how can we do better? This is in no way trying to slight anyone or their  choices...
> 
> Let me try to explain it this way.... The Shwastica(sp?) the Nazi symbol  was used a symbol of hatred.... The White hats that the KKK wear is a  symbol or tool used to denote hatred. The confederate flag was used a  symbol to represent hate... The use of the word n*gger originated as  symbol of hatred.'
> 
> ...


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## hasabe (Jun 26, 2010)

tHeHaIRLaB said:


> i had a professor last year that said it is a "cultural norm" for blacks to be both late and loud.



 snide comments like that just make me wonder what else is going through their heads...

I had a YT girl ask me if black people's hair grows past shoulder length. 

makes me want to smack the stupid out of them 

And let me just add, how can it be a "preference" if it's constantly being shoved down your throat?


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## brucebettye (Jun 26, 2010)

For me personally, I feel that we always want what we don't have.  For example I have curly, kinky, coily hair and I used to always want it to be straight.  Since I know how to take care of my hair I like it in curly, kinky, coily.


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## aquajoyice (Jun 26, 2010)

I don't think there is one reason why AA women or any woman may prefer straight hair. A few IMO are it's easier to maintain and style straight hair, most people want the opposite of what grows out of their scalp. People with straight hair want curly etc. For AA since there hasn't been a proven method on how to care for afro textured hair some parents just relxed their childs hair at an early age for manageability and just continued from there. And not to mention in corporate America it seems that straight hair is just more acceptable. Some see an afro and automatically think they know your political stance. But seeing more and more people accepting and loving their own texture enough to wear their natural hair this may change the way people view afro textured hair.


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## kmn1980 (Jun 26, 2010)

tHeHaIRLaB said:


> i had a professor last year that said it is a "cultural norm" for blacks to be both late and loud.



That shows his ignorance. Time as is defined by the clock is actually a European construct. All the brown races went by the position of the sun. Go to an AA, Mexican, Cuban, African, Native American, etc...event and you'll see people arriving later than the stated "time" and often bringing people that weren't invited.

My brother's godparents are both anthropologists and their literature collection asserts and confirms that in the brown cultures, the concern is just getting it done...not getting it done by 10:15. 

There is no such thing as time. There is only past, present and future. 

As for the "loud" thing...well, I do believe that different cultures express emotion in different ways. Go into the average white church and then the average "minority" church and you'll see that even though they are purportedly praising the same God, their ways of going about it are totally different with whites often being reserved.


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## preciouslove0x (Jun 26, 2010)

I'm really loving everyones input. Keep it coming please (even if you are not sure)!


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## washize (Jun 26, 2010)

that depends on what black people you are talking about. You know you have the ignorant "nappy hair is bad don't look like you're black masta gon' beat us" black people. You have people who have just always had a relaxer, and honestly don't know why they do it, but continue to because they've just always have been relaxed. Then you have the girls who like the way straight hair looks, and straight hair is easier to take care of than curly hair. 

I think I look better with straight hair long or short. My curly hair only looks nice when it is huge or falls down. My face is too long to have hair that sticks straight out. But I wear a straight wig most of the time.


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## I Am So Blessed (Jun 26, 2010)

LOL. i dont really like bone straight hair, i like my hair straight/wavy enough to hang and blow on my back in the wind. it looks sexier when theres all this hair blowing around and guys just stop and look. i love the hang. and when im watching tv with just my bra on i fell all this hair on my back like blanket, makes me feel feminine, then i look over had my man staring at it lol. he loves to touch it. 

...........i love being texlaxed.

hey i was natural for 24.5 years and i loved that too. i just love hair period.


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## tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT (Jun 26, 2010)

kmn1980 said:


> That show his ignorance. Time as is defined by the clock is actually a European construct<---- kinda touched on this after being prompted
> 
> My brother's godparents are both anthropologists and their literature collection asserts and confirms that in the *brown cultures, the concern is just getting it done...not getting it done by 10:15*.
> <-----lol, yes exactly what he later explained (along with our acceptance of being larger and largely overweight culture).


  It was an argument that I had to stay out of b/c of my always being tardy for the party (at least in class)

----------^^^^^^


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## *CherryPie* (Jun 26, 2010)

Some of y'all are way too serious about hair!  

All of the history of slavery, and inferiority, etc........

It's getting so old. 

Maybe most blacks prefer straight hair because they like the way it looks.


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## tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT (Jun 26, 2010)

kmn1980 said:


> ITA. I call it "the why behind the why."
> 
> The following commentary I found on another site (non-hair related) and it pretty much sums up my opinion on the subject. Since the OP wants everyone to play nice, I feel that this is a safer option for me because if I say what's really on my mind...well....trust me. Here goes:



i'm just gonna linger off topic again & say i graduated from high school with the confederate flag as a HUGE emblem on our diploma.... fought to try to get it of
they said "either accept a blank slate....or this flag)

also painted in our school hallway.... yes i'm of the south....nearly 10 yrs ago

we still have so far to go


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## I Am So Blessed (Jun 26, 2010)

tHeHaIRLaB said:


> i'm just gonna linger off topic again & say i graduated from high school with the confederate flag as a HUGE emblem on our diploma.... fought to try to get it of
> they said "either accept a blank slate....or this flag)
> 
> also painted in our school hallway.... yes i'm of the south....nearly 10 yrs ago
> ...


 
dayum.... thats sad but im not suprised, like c'mon.... satan is in THIS WORLD just as the good book says, so nothing like this shocks me.

anywho back to hair. flowing hair is just down right sexyyyy!!!


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## washize (Jun 26, 2010)

*CherryPie* said:


> Some of y'all are way too serious about hair!
> 
> All of the history of slavery, and inferiority, etc........
> 
> ...


 

yeah it does get old, but seriously how many post do you read here daily, about how someones mother or grandmother are telling new naturals how bad their hair looks and how they need a relaxer, and how no man or job is going to want them because of their hair. And I know growing up allot of black girls got asked about their wide noses, kinky hair, and blah blah blah. As an adult you see this as ignorance, but as a child it is damaging and you do grow to hate that feature about yourself. Some people realize that there was/is nothing wrong with them, and some people never get over the damage 

It is really getting old, hopefully the new generations can let kinky and black be free. I know when I adopt my children and they ask "mom why isn't my hair or my skin, or est like this, I'm going to say because you are not white. Why don't they look like you? Your hair is beautiful and you are beautiful"


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## kmn1980 (Jun 26, 2010)

washize said:


> I know when I adopt my children and they ask "mom why isn't my hair or my skin, or est like this,* I'm going to say because you are not white. Why don't they look like you? Your hair is beautiful and you are beautiful"*



When my kids get old enough to ask, I'm going to give them the same type of explanation only mine will include the terms "original" and "recessive" .


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## I Am So Blessed (Jun 26, 2010)

kmn1980 said:


> When my kids get old enough to ask, I'm going to give them the same type of explanation only mine will include the terms "original" and "recessive" .


 

growing up, my sister and i never asked questions liike that it was always in us to know that God made all different races. just like we never asked why is the sky blue, we just knew that it was blue. i dont know if its becuase we were raised in church or not but we always knew there was a great creator and that he created everything the way he wanted so we never needed those type of questions answered.  did i make sence?

oh well


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## HappilyLiberal (Jun 26, 2010)

washize said:


> yeah it does get old, but seriously how many post do you read here daily, about how someones mother or grandmother are telling new naturals how bad their hair looks and how they need a relaxer, and how no man or job is going to want them because of their hair. And I know growing up allot of black girls got asked about their wide noses, kinky hair, and blah blah blah. As an adult you see this as ignorance, but as a child it is damaging and you do grow to hate that feature about yourself. Some people realize that there was/is nothing wrong with them, and some people never get over the damage
> 
> It is really getting old, *hopefully the new generations can let kinky and black be free. *I know when I adopt my children and they ask "mom why isn't my hair or my skin, or est like this, I'm going to say because you are not white. Why don't they look like you? Your hair is beautiful and you are beautiful"



And hopefully those who wish to wear their hair straight will be free to do so without a bunch of natural Nazis insinuating they are brainwashed or engage in self-hatred because of a hairstyle!


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## JuiceMobsta (Jun 26, 2010)

*CherryPie* said:


> Some of y'all are way too serious about hair!
> 
> *All of the history of slavery, and inferiority, etc........*
> 
> ...



And most blacks preferring straight hair because of them liking the way it looks leads right back to all the history of slavery, and inferiority,etc. ...An endless cycle.


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## KurlyNinja (Jun 26, 2010)

A lot of people say straight hair is easier to take care of... Is it really? Because I've seen lots of black women with straight hair that looks like they don't what to do with it. Or is it because you just think its easier? I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people who would argue that their own natural hair coming out of their head is easier for them to take care of then chemically altered hair.

The whole white is better issue has been pushed on us so long that we don't even see it as that anymore... I WISH people would chose straight hair *JUST* because they wanted it, but half the time this is not true...


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## SweetTea (Jun 26, 2010)

It's kind of beating a dead horse, but it's because it's what most of us were brought up to like. When I was little, my mom pressed my hair every week and then relaxed me when I was 4 or 5. I used to have a serious complex about my new growth, being relaxed so young. I hated the feel of it. I remember once, I took scissors and snipped away the new growth at my nape because it didn't "feel right."

And then my parents wondered why I had problems being black when I was little. Even just in the early 90's when I was a kid, I don't remember black women being acknowledged as much as they are today. I thought only white women were pretty/could be pretty. My mom would always tell me, "Black women are pretty. Don't feel bad about yourself." and then turn around and tell me I didn't have "pretty white-girl hair" when I would get my hair wet.

But what I find interesting is, so many white people seem fascinated by our hair/want to know why we straighten, but how many of them would actually want our hair? My guess is, not many. Like someone else said, straight hair can be turned kinky. Some Asian people do it because they like the look.







I think white people don't get kinky hair because they don't want it. They complain about having to do a quick wash most/every day, so the detangling, moisturizing, etc. would blow their minds. This isn't anything against your friend, OP. I have white friends that ask similar questions.


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## jennboo (Jun 26, 2010)

CourtneyRenee said:


> The bolded leads me to believe you know exactly why.... but for those don't know...
> 
> Colonization
> 
> it's pretty sad too....


 
Red bolded: That's it, point blank period.

If we were the dominant race who had colonized, ruled, and oppressed european cultures at the time with our kinky hair and dark skin, kinky hair and dark skin would be the ideal. Since it happened the other way, we subscribe to the white skin/straighter hair ideal even though it is impossible for us to attain that. 

Black folks idolizing straight hair and light skin is not a coincidence. It has jack to do with ease of styling, manageability and any of the other reasons thrown around.


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## JJamiah (Jun 26, 2010)

I straighten my hair because I like it straight. Period, no deep meaning, no extra toss in the mix, no secret meaning. 

I have Wyt friends who ask questions and they are very unknowing and their kids ask too, not rude either, the kids (How do you get your hair like that? ) it's a kid question and plenty more until they were like COOL! and proceeded to tell me about theirs like I didn't know already LOL. There is no secret meaning. My friend colors her hair every 3 weeks. I relax every 4 months. We ask each other questions. I think when you always OVER ANALYZE things you waste your time thnking to hard. If I meant to say something I would and tend to be with people of the like. Some people need to take a CHILL PILL and relax it's not that deep. Yes we do have a way to go, but please don't start wearing the other shoe, because then we will just keep the cycle going.

Don't worry about why someone is doing what their doing if your spending more than a minute it is a Minute wasted of your life.Ask a question or Keep it moving!


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## JJamiah (Jun 26, 2010)

SweetTea said:


> It's kind of beating a dead horse, but it's because it's what most of us were brought up to like. When I was little, my mom pressed my hair every week and then relaxed me when I was 4 or 5. I used to have a serious complex about my new growth, being relaxed so young. I hated the feel of it. I remember once, I took scissors and snipped away the new growth at my nape because it didn't "feel right."
> 
> And then my parents wondered why I had problems being black when I was little. Even just in the early 90's when I was a kid, I don't remember black women being acknowledged as much as they are today. I thought only white women were pretty/could be pretty. My mom would always tell me, "Black women are pretty. Don't feel bad about yourself." and then turn around and tell me I didn't have "pretty white-girl hair" when I would get my hair wet.
> 
> ...


I am loving his hair


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## jennboo (Jun 26, 2010)

Also, i don't believe that the OP's friend was being malicious in her questioning about this subject. Some white folks truly don't know...why? because they don't NEED to know. What's it to them? I had a russian guy friend who could not understand why black woman always ran off to get relaxers. I said it was to attain hair like his. He was kind of like ok, but that's so stupid natural hair is beautiful. I agreed


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## yora88 (Jun 26, 2010)

Did you ask her why white women like dark skin? Or why they like big lips? Or why they start wearing makeup at the age of 11? 

At the end of the day, every woman just wants to feel/be beautiful. Everybody's definition of beauty is different.


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## LadyRaider (Jun 26, 2010)

Why do white women prefer straight hair? Sarah Jessica Parker straightens hers. The girl from Dirty Dancing (forget her name) straightens hers. She also got her nose fixed which to me messed up her face. Why do white women fix their noses?

Why do white women not like the color of their hair? (I'm truly curious.) What's wrong with the curly, mousy brown hair God gave them?


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## LadyRaider (Jun 26, 2010)

metamorphose88 said:


> Did you ask her why white women like dark skin? Or why they like big lips? Or why they start wearing makeup at the age of 11?
> 
> At the end of the day, every woman just wants to feel/be beautiful. Everybody's definition of beauty is different.



Ah you beat me to it. The make up thing is another thing. I remember in jr high this white teacher getting on me for not wearing make up like the white girls. You are so right about that. I didn't need make up then. My skin was flawless and beautiful brown already.


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## arosieworld (Jun 26, 2010)

As far a your post goes I prefer curly hair but when I was young I just  wanted to have hair like my mom. I think beyond all the deep stuff for a  lot of girls that is a big reason. I grew up seeing my mom with bone  straight hair (she is mixed doesn't relax) her hair could have been orange  and I would have wanted it.



preciouslove0x said:


> I've known this girl for years. She was truly curious. I guess I might add that we were laughing about how in high school when I use to wear a straight long weave EVERYDAY for four years. Today was the first day she saw me with my natural hair.
> 
> But then again... you never know



You DO know. Don't let other peoples views make you question a relationship that has been good to/for you. My Bff is white and like you I have known her for years. If someone ever overheard some of our conversations they would think horrible things about both of us. Because she is your friend the walls are down she feels like she can ask you things she would never ask anyone else because you love her and won't judge. I am sure you've used that to your benefit as well and asked some crazy things, I know I have. Not all white people are looking for validation of their whiteness and only you know if she is.


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## LadyRaider (Jun 26, 2010)

Yeah okay. But friends can be ignorant. I personally think it is a ridiculous question. Right now ALL (or at least most) women are straightening their hair. Whatever her reason for straightening her hair (or her sister's or her mom's) is most likely the same as black women's reasons. 

Straight hair is fun. Straight hair shows your length. Straight hair is in style now, you see it all over in the media. Blacks and whites are subject to the same media images. What... are we supposed to be somehow different or even stronger than other cultures? We want to be what we see reflected in the culture. Just like everyone else.


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## sweetlaughter (Jun 26, 2010)

Speaking from my own personal experiences, I think I just didn't know how to style natural hair like I did straight hair so I preferred straight growing up. I also had no idea about haircare natural, relaxed, whatever. 

I'm learning every day now about hair and debunking myths. Like when I spoke with my Chinese friend who explained to me that not all Asians have straight hair. The look on my face was like . Her sister and mom have wavy hair. She then went on to explain to me that she knows a lot of Asian women who faithfully get their Japanese style straightener every six months.


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## Solitude (Jun 26, 2010)

Girl, don't you know? Black people read books, major in English and Philosophy, go to law school and medical school, become vegetarians and vegans, convert to Catholicism, play tennis and golf, summer in the Hamptons, travel abroad, play classical musical instruments, run marathons, and drive hybrids, use organic products, shop at Whole Foods, adopt babies from Africa, wear Ed Hardy, go to Ivy League Schools, recycle, eat sushi, sip wine, go camping, _and _straighten our hair to be WHITE. 

*sarcasm*


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## jennboo (Jun 26, 2010)

LadyRaider said:


> Yeah okay. But friends can be ignorant. I personally think it is a ridiculous question. Right now ALL (or at least most) women are straightening their hair. Whatever her reason for straightening her hair (or her sister's or her mom's) is most likely the same as black women's reasons.
> 
> Straight hair is fun. Straight hair shows your length. Straight hair is in style now, you see it all over in the media. Blacks and whites are subject to the same media images. What... are we supposed to be somehow different or even stronger than other cultures? We want to be what we see reflected in the culture. Just like everyone else.


 
This goes back to skin color as well. The media bombards us with images of white people or lighter skinned, non-white folks. But if someone came into this thread defending their preference for light skin with the argument that "we want to be what we see reflected in the media" all hell would break loose. The preference for light skin and the preference for straight hair is one in the same to me. It comes from the same place. I just find it interesting that people will lambast folks who want to bleach their skin but think it's fine and dandy to chemicalize their hair.


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## ichephren (Jun 26, 2010)

I am Nigerian and agree that our idea of time is generalized based on the time of the day. I also agree that Black people are usually louder than Whites. I do not think this is a bad thing though. Loud = level of fun someone is having. For the example of the Church, I would say that Black churches are probably more fun to go to than White churches. I have actually gone to both because my family moved so much when I was young. Everybody would be asleep in predominantly white churches. In mixed churches, there was more life. In Black churches (esp in Nigeria), there is too much activity to sleep. 

So, I guess I agree with this professor dude, but I don't really take offense to it. I think it's unnatural and unnecessary to make everything in life due by an artificially created clock. I also celebrate our Black loudness...we know how to get our party on. And yes, I notice this also applies to other "brown" people.





kmn1980 said:


> That shows his ignorance. Time as is defined by the clock is actually a European construct. All the brown races went by the position of the sun. Go to an AA, Mexican, Cuban, African, Native American, etc...event and you'll see people arriving later than the stated "time" and often bringing people that weren't invited.
> 
> My brother's godparents are both anthropologists and their literature collection asserts and confirms that in the brown cultures, the concern is just getting it done...not getting it done by 10:15.
> 
> ...


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## lovelexi (Jun 26, 2010)

Its not just blacks that prefer straight hair, its whites, asians, hispanics, etc. I think its a universal thing. Even Caucasians with naturally curly hair alter their hair by blow drying and flat ironing for a sleeker straighter look


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## jennboo (Jun 26, 2010)

Solitude said:


> Girl, don't you know? Black people read books, major in English and Philosophy, go to law school and medical school, become vegetarians and vegans, convert to Catholicism, play tennis and golf, summer in the Hamptons, travel abroad, play classical musical instruments, run marathons, and drive hybrids, use organic products, shop at Whole Foods, adopt babies from Africa, wear Ed Hardy, go to Ivy League Schools, recycle, eat sushi, sip wine, go camping, _and _straighten our hair to be WHITE.
> 
> *sarcasm*


 
  Those sounds like your own generalizations regarding the lifestyles and preferences of whites vs. blacks. The truth is none of the above posted are endemic to certain races of people, as are hair texture and skin color.


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## Solitude (Jun 26, 2010)

jennboo said:


> Those sounds like your own generalizations regarding the lifestyles and preferences of whites vs. blacks. The truth is none of the above posted are endemic to certain races of people, as are hair texture and skin color.



My point is that I do about half the things on this list and none of it, including straightening my hair, is because I want to be white. 

Your constant referrals to colonization infer that black people are incapable of making choices based on our own preferences.


By the way, my list was not based on my own idea; it was based on a very popular website: http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/full-list-of-stuff-white-people-like/


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## darlingdiva (Jun 26, 2010)

chrisanddonniesmommy said:


> *Still be careful. White privilege isn't alleviated through friendship or other relationships. It will be pulled out when necessary and beneficial to the person, regardless of his or her friends, spouses/lovers, etc.*
> 
> Next thing you know other "innocent" questions will arise, like "Why do black people want light skin?" or "Why are black people so loud?" Remember, you can always say that you aren't the spokeswoman for black people.


 
THIS IS TRUE!!!  Last summer, DH and I had gone to the beach w/ some friends.  Our white "friend" was driven home by one of our other male friends of African descent.  The cops started tailing his car & pulled him over.  While the cops were tailing the car, the white "friend" repeatedly asked him if he had any warrants and he *repeatedly* said no.  After she asked him for about the fifth time, the white "friend" said that she was asking because one out of four Black men get arrested.


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## BEAUTYU2U (Jun 26, 2010)

I think *assimilation* plays a huge part in blacks' preference of straight hair. It's not to look more "white" but to look more "American." But I guess those terms could be interchangeable because people tend to look at those as one and same. Ex. the term "All-American"

Secondly, I think *curiosity* is another big thing. We have kinky, curly hair so we prefer the opposite look - straight. How many times have you heard white women talk about trying to curl their hair for a special event? Same with black women who straighten for certain occasions ... or all the time. Each people have their own ideas of "exotic" or "different."


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## Junebug D (Jun 26, 2010)

lovelexi said:


> Its not just blacks that prefer straight hair, its whites, asians, hispanics, etc. I think its a universal thing. Even Caucasians with naturally curly hair alter their hair by blow drying and flat ironing for a sleeker straighter look



I think people continue to prefer it right now is because it's what's presented to us as glamorous and beautiful.  If you want to go into the history of it, it's been explained. But right now, I think it's continued simply because it's what we see being promoted as beautiful all the time.  Curly-haired whites burn the crap out of their hair to get it straight, so do Latinas.  Like it or not, *STRAIGHT HAIR IS THE NORM RIGHT NOW*-- for everybody. 

When curl season comes along, you'll see more people embracing curliness. I doubt it will ever be as widespread as straightness, at least not here in the USA due to the power structure. We know who the image makers are.  We need to stop pretending that Black America lives in a bubble and we can be/are truly independent of the majority culture.  When Latinos take over here, we'll start seeing shifts in music, style, fashion, culture, etc. But for now, all these things are still dictated by the majority culture.  Black people do not live in a vacuum.  

I don't think it's all colonization and slave mentality today, because that explanation conveniently overlooks the 70s when most black people were wearing afros. And it overlooks the 80s when everyone had some type of curl-- and even for white people the big teased-out curly hair was in style.  And it even overlooks what's happening right now as more black women are going natural. I doubt more black people are just suddenly freeing themselves from colonization and oppression because they're still carrying the other markers of it like skin complexes, etc. Usually someone goes natural first and then they start repeating all the colonization/white/slavery stuff; rarely TODAY do I see it happening the other way around, like it happened in the 70s.  It's reactive rather than the engine that sparked the physical change.


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## jennboo (Jun 26, 2010)

Solitude said:


> My point is that I do about half the things on this list and none of it, including straightening my hair, is because I want to be white.
> 
> Your constant referrals to colonization infer that black people are incapable of making choices based on our own preferences.
> 
> ...


 
Colonization and it's legacy permeates the fabric of this country and countries all over the world. The influences cannot be ignored. It is difficult for any group of people to break free from its effects. We can use the word 'preference', since it makes folks feel better, but really we have been brainwashed by the dominant culture to love and accept with open arms their ideals about aesthetics while casting out our own. 

And regarding that website, it should by no means be referenced as a place to gain factual info about the lifestyles and preferences of any race of people. That blog is written in a purposefully witty satirical nature for entertainment purposes only, lol.


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## jennboo (Jun 26, 2010)

Junebug D said:


> I think people continue to prefer it right now is because it's what's presented to us as glamorous and beautiful. If you want to go into the history of it, it's been explained. But right now, I think it's continued simply because it's what we see being promoted as beautiful all the time. Curly-haired whites burn the crap out of their hair to get it straight, so do Latinas. Like it or not, *STRAIGHT HAIR IS THE NORM RIGHT NOW*-- for everybody.
> 
> When curl season comes along, you'll see more people embracing curliness. I doubt it will ever be as widespread as straightness, at least not here in the USA due to the power structure. We know who the image makers are. *We need to stop pretending that Black America lives in a bubble and we can be/are truly independent of the majority culture.* When Latinos take over here, we'll start seeing shifts in music, style, fashion, culture, etc. But for now, all these things are still dictated by the majority culture. Black people do not live in a vacuum.
> 
> *I don't think it's all colonization and slave mentality today, because that explanation conveniently overlooks the 70s when most black people were wearing afros. And it overlooks the 80s when everyone had some type of curl-- and even for white people the big teased-out curly hair was in style. And it even overlooks what's happening right now as more black women are going natural.* I doubt more black people are just suddenly freeing themselves from colonization and oppression because they're still carrying the other markers of it like skin complexes, etc. Usually someone goes natural first and then they start repeating all the colonization/white/slavery stuff; rarely TODAY do I see it happening the other way around, like it happened in the 70s. It's reactive rather than the engine that sparked the physical change.


 
Red bolded: I totally agree.

Blue bolded: The time of the afro and the black is beautiful movement was in direct response/opposition to white ideals regarding beauty (as well as other things). We had to psych ourselves up by amassing this entire movement with afros and picks and fists and the like. This was great, but proves the point that we have to do so much to assert ourselves in a world where our beauty is not readily showcased and/ or accepted fully...because of the effects of colonization. Let's also not overlook the fact that this 'movement' was short-lived, as people grew tired of the movement and yearned for their straight or otherwise processed hair back. Regarding the 80's big hair movement, that is not applicable imo as big hair essentially is not the issue, its highly textured hair. Teased straight and curly hair looks light years different than afro textured hair. In reference to the natural movement of today, it's fantastic, but 1) relaxed heads still dominate and 2) a lot of naturals still hold tight to the straighter is better mentality.


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## nikolite (Jun 26, 2010)

I don't think we prefer it or even most of us do.  Did so many of us prefer it in the 60's and 70's?  

Its similar to why men are said to "prefer" bony women, or "prefer" shaven legs, or black people "prefer" light skin.  We are socialized to "prefer" the standard beauty ideal and in America, that is and has always been straight hair.  Fads work the same way--one moment everyone prefers shoulder pads and the next moment its the ugliest thing walking.  

Hey, I don't shave my legs because I truly prefer it, I shave them because I feel I have to or I'd be looked at with disgust if I didn't.  I prefer being able to toss on a dress and just be me. 

It'd be different if a few people preferred straight hair or whatever.  But when the vast majority say they do, then there's usually a problem of not actual preference but a need for assimilation into the social norm for many of them.  Especially when these preferences are of no tangible benefit (like height or muscle mass). Some have actual individual preferences for straight hair (IMO beauty is in the eyes of the beholder), but its hard to point out which is which and I strongly doubt that an entire race of people prefer to look different from who they are in the same exact way without outside influence.  To believe that would mean that there actually is an ultimate universal beauty and that beauty just happens to keep coinciding with an entire group of people who just happen to be in power all over the world (straight hair, pale skin, colored eyes, light or blonde hair, etc.)

ETA: I agree with Jennboo and Junebug both.  Its true that as black Americans, we are following the norms of OUR culture (included with white Americans), but our looks have never been a part of that norm.  Our afro-mvmt was the only time we tried to starkly oppose it and it was short-lived.  I think the 80's hair was just an acceptance of big, fluffy/curly white hair, definitely not kinky, afro hair.  Similarly, there is an obsession over full lips and thick butts nowadays, but its not even associated with black women anymore.  Instead, the media obsesses over J-Lo, Kardashian, Angelina Jolie, and white women with these features.  You'd think given these new style norms, beautiful black women would be all over the media, but we're not.  Asian women maybe, Latinos sometimes, but not black women.


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## Solitude (Jun 26, 2010)

jennboo said:


> Colonization and it's legacy permeates the fabric of this country and countries all over the world. The influences cannot be ignored. It is difficult for any group of people to break free from its effects. We can use the word 'preference', since it makes folks feel better, *but really we have been brainwashed by the dominant culture to love and accept with open arms their ideals about aesthetics while casting out our own.*
> 
> And regarding that website, it should by no means be referenced as a place to gain factual info about the lifestyles and preferences of any race of people. That blog is written in a purposefully witty satirical nature for entertainment purposes only, lol.



Actually, just so that you know, the website is NOT just for entertainment purposes. I've been following since it started. It's part of a social experiment. When it began, the author kept his identity a secret to follow people's reactions in the comments. ETA: Even as satire, I'm sure you know that no satire is for strictly entertainment purposes. 

Since I'm one of those goofy English majors who studied English and Communication (with some philosophy and African-American lit) and am now in law school, I don't need a lecture about the history on the world from you. The ole "white folks brainwashed us" bit is so TIRED. So WHAT? What does that have to do with hair? Black people fry, dye, weave, and grow our hair because we want to. Even if we were the dominant culture, we would still experiment with our hair. That's always been the case, long before chattel slavery. 

The true problems related to oppression deal with environmental racism, poverty, disparity in income, the HIV epidemic, etc. I don't choose to "ignore" oppression. I chose to go to law school so that I could have some degree of leverage in fighting against the problems minorities face in the public school system. What would be different about my life if I wore my hair natural? Would that make me more enlightened? Would that make me a better black person? I would argue that I'm truly free because I KNOW that I can wear my hair natural and I CHOOSE not to. 

As an experiment, I wore a braidout or twist out every single day while stretching my relaxer for six months. I was working a federal courthouse where most of the other black people were defendants. Guess what??? NOBODY CARED. A lot of oppression is very real. A lot of it is created in your own mind.


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## Solitude (Jun 26, 2010)

nikolite said:


> Its similar to why men are said to "prefer" bony women, or "prefer" shaven legs, or black people "prefer" light skin.  We are socialized to "prefer" the standard beauty ideal and in America, that is and has always been straight hair.  Fads work the same way--one moment everyone prefers shoulder pads and the next moment its the ugliest thing walking.



I actually agreed with your post, but I had one question (not necessarily to you): 

Why do so many black men still prefer thicker/curvier women when, for a hundred years, the American "ideal" has been stick-straight women? 

Of course, some men are "chest" men, some men like big behinds, etc., and some men do actually like skinny women. If we are so deeply influenced by media/society, how do we form preferences at all?


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## dancinstallion (Jun 26, 2010)

southerncitygirl said:


> I agree...she aint slick!!! Curly hair is a dominant trait, *yt women fry their hair daily with a flat iron to mask the curl and suffer excessive heat damage, breakage and split ends.*
> 
> I think its human nature to want what you dont have but yt's have consistently made a point of making us feel inadeqate over our God given features and attributes.....hair, buts, lips, etc.


 

That is so true! My white friend flat irons her hair daily and she sheds and has split ends up the wall. She was shocked to see how long my hair was compared to hers. I was shocked like " you're YT! you have no excuse for your hair to be this damaged and broken off" NOt everybody know how to take care of hair. I would think for YT ppl that it isn't that hard to maintain long hair with out it being damaged.


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## washize (Jun 26, 2010)

HappilyLiberal said:


> And hopefully those who wish to wear their hair straight will be free to do so without a bunch of natural Nazis insinuating they are brainwashed or engage in self-hatred because of a hairstyle!


 
I'm not a natural nazi. I straighten my hair and I wear straight wigs.


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## LadyRaider (Jun 26, 2010)

Solitude said:


> I actually agreed with your post, but I had one question (not necessarily to you):
> 
> Why do so many black men still prefer thicker/curvier women when, for a hundred years, the American "ideal" has been stick-straight women?
> 
> Of course, some men are "chest" men, some men like big behinds, etc., and some men do actually like skinny women. If we are so deeply influenced by media/society, how do we form preferences at all?



This is my theory. I could be talked out of it, however.

I think white and black men both prefer curvier women. I think it is fashion designers and women who prefer skinny women. I think Black men are for some reason less likely to worry about what society thinks of their women. Perhaps because they know most other black men have that same freedom?  Perhaps because the black men who have those hang ups are with white women anyway?


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## jennboo (Jun 26, 2010)

Solitude said:


> *Actually, just so that you know, the website is NOT just for entertainment purposes. I've been following since it started. It's part of a social experiment. When it began, the author kept his identity a secret to follow people's reactions in the comments. *ETA: Even as satire, I'm sure you know that no satire is for strictly entertainment purposes.
> 
> *Since I'm one of those goofy English majors who studied English and Communication (with some philosophy and African-American lit) and am now in law school, I don't need a lecture about the history on the world from you. *The ole "white folks brainwashed us" bit is so TIRED. So WHAT? What does that have to do with hair? Black people fry, dye, weave, and grow our hair because we want to. Even if we were the dominant culture, we would still experiment with our hair. That's always been the case, long before chattel slavery.
> 
> ...


 
Hi there, 

First bolded: What does that have to do with anything? The fact that it's part of a social experiment? The musings on that website are for entertainment purposes only and do not hold any real, factual information.

Second bolded: What does your degree have to do with anything? LOL. There are lots of educated, brilliant (those are not one in the same, by the way) folks who are ignorant about oppression and its long-lasting effect. 

Third bolded: Agreed , but thats not what's being debated, lol.

Fourth bolded:Folks' true feelings always come out in the wash, LOL. Always. Do you think it would make you more enlightened? Do you think itd make you a better black person? Those are coming from your fingertips, not mine.

Fifth bolded: A braid out on relaxed hair looks nothing like afro-textured hair. Try the experiment again.


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## dancinstallion (Jun 26, 2010)

tHeHaIRLaB said:


> i had a professor last year that *said it is a "cultural norm" for blacks to be both late and loud*.
> 
> 
> *but on topic: DO BLACK MEN PREFER STRAIGHT HAIR?*


 
I totally agree about the lateness. Even if I am on time I can gaurantee the all my black family members won't be on time. The *africans *here and abroad are always late for everything(interviews, parties etc) So I know where we get it from. 

Now about being loud. I think that is just some blacks and not all. especially the ghetto ones. I can be loud but there is a time and a place for that. 

_Yes We all know black men prefer straight hair. (some blk men will take whatever they can get) But the ones who have a chose do choose straight hair, and will be quick to tell a woman she needs a relaxer or says she has knappy hair._


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## Nonie (Jun 26, 2010)

Before I read anyone's responses, these come to mind as reasons *some* may prefer straight hair :


It's how they've always worn their hair so the only way they know to wear it and the only way they understand;
A history of disliking hair that was "nappy" passed on over generations;
It's easy and takes less time to deal with straight hair;
The media makes it seem as if straight hair is what's cool and so they adopt it;
They like how straight hair looks on them;
They just want a change of style because maybe they have always worn their hair coily and it's about time they tried something new;
Straight hair lets them enjoy and show off their true length and offers a range of styling options since their hair stays long;
Pressure from society...
...et cetera

Now off to read what others said.


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## dancinstallion (Jun 26, 2010)

Solitude said:


> I actually agreed with your post, but I had one question (not necessarily to you):
> 
> Why do so many black men still *prefer thicker/curvier women* when, for a hundred years, the American "ideal" has been stick-straight women?
> 
> Of course, some men are "chest" men, some men like big behinds, etc., and some men do actually like skinny women. If we are so deeply influenced by media/society, how do we form preferences at all?


 

Even skinny blk women have alot of curves and big breast and still fit in a size 3-7. they are not built like flat boards. So that could be the reason.


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## LadyRaider (Jun 26, 2010)

tHeHaIRLaB said:


> i had a professor last year that said it is a "cultural norm" for blacks to be both late and loud.



I know the research this comes from and it's sort of true, but isn't something that should be said without context.


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## hola_lo2002 (Jun 26, 2010)

They probably prefer straight hair because it's easier to maintain!


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## *CherryPie* (Jun 26, 2010)

Only if you let it go there.

There's a lot of things that happens in life that can "disturb" you. It's up to you not to dwell on them. 

There's no cycle. HAVING STRAIGHT HAIR DOESN'T LEAD BACK TO SLAVERY, INFERIORITY, ETC. That's CRAZY. If it's that deep, then maybe we need a PSYCHIATRIST on the board.

 I NEVER thought about slavery etc., when I thought of a type of hair, UNTIL I CAME TO LHCF. 

Sometimes, It just is what it is, WITH NO DEEP MEANING.erplexed

I really feel bad for the ones who live your lives in the PAST. 

IT'S ONLY HAIR Y'ALL.



Chelz said:


> And most blacks preferring straight hair because of them liking the way it looks leads right back to all the history of slavery, and inferiority,etc. ...An endless cycle.


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## dancinstallion (Jun 26, 2010)

kmn1980 said:


> ITA. I call it "the why behind the why."
> 
> The following commentary I found on another site (non-hair related) and it pretty much sums up my opinion on the subject. Since the OP wants everyone to play nice, I feel that this is a safer option for me because if I say what's really on my mind...well....trust me. Here goes:


 
*WOW!!!!! *That was such a powerful quote. I am glad that you shared it. It does lead me to beleive it is apart of hatred that has been handed down to us. Relaxed heads don't look at it as hatred(i am kinky relaxed) But I know for sure MY MOTHER hated my kinky natural hair so she through a relaxer in it. And so many blk friends and family of mine would be the first ones to tell me to go and relax  my hair(even though I already had one my hair still appeared knappy). So I do beleive it is hatred passed down to us, And since we have been relaxing since childhood WE CONSIDER IT NORMAL or by choice. relaxing is no longer a choice because not relaxing is really NO OPTION for some people. It is a duty that has to be done.


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## jennboo (Jun 26, 2010)

"it's only hair" yes, yes...the default response, when all else fails.

(despite paying money to post on a hair board to get tips on how to treat the hair, considering  putting anti-perspirant on your scalp to keep from having your hair revert to its natural state, pandemonium about wearing you natch hair at job interviews, siggies dedicated to hair journeys/progress pics/in depth regimens, etc.)


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## nikolite (Jun 26, 2010)

Solitude said:


> I actually agreed with your post, but I had one question (not necessarily to you):
> 
> Why do so many black men still prefer thicker/curvier women when, for a hundred years, the American "ideal" has been stick-straight women?
> 
> Of course, some men are "chest" men, some men like big behinds, etc., and some men do actually like skinny women. If we are so deeply influenced by media/society, how do we form preferences at all?



Honestly, I don't think black men prefer thicker women.  I think that's a myth.  Most men of all races are attracted to women that are shaped like women.  Some a little thicker than average and some a little thinner.  If it was true that white men only liked thin women, then they'd have died out from not reproducing a long time ago.  And I don't think black women have a monopoly on being thicker.  The skinny white woman and the thick black woman are media portrayals.  

Secondly, the "skinny" ideal is pretty recent, gaining prevalence in the 80's.  Before that, average sized women were regarded as beautiful (ie. Marilyn Monroe), and before the media started to bombard homes with beauty images, men tended to prefer who they preferred, and not so much a monolithic preference towards one type.  

But as an aside, losing weight is a lot more difficult than slapping a relaxer in one's hair every so often.  Its an ideal that is more easily attained, so it makes sense that its naturally the one that black people subscribe to most easily.  Many of us want lighter skin too, but that quickly becomes taboo because its not something we can actually make happen without waaaaay too much effort and pain.



LadyRaider said:


> This is my theory. I could be talked out of it, however.
> 
> I think white and black men both prefer curvier women. I think it is fashion designers and women who prefer skinny women. I think Black men are for some reason less likely to worry about what society thinks of their women. Perhaps because they know most other black men have that same freedom? Perhaps because the black men who have those hang ups are with white women anyway?



I agree!  Because curvy women look like women!  That's the whole point in being a woman.  You're supposed to have curves!

I'm a skinny woman that's pretty curvy (well some think I'm skinny others think I'm not).  I don't remember the source, but men generally find women attractive who have a .70 or lower waist to hip ratio (give or take of course, I think .80 too).  That means a woman can be a size 5 or a size 20 and still look feminine and desirable depending on this. 

But according to my hubbie, men really fall in love with a cute face more than anything, and a great personality, and body-wise we all look like women to them in general.  They don't admit this, but they're not as obsessed over these ideals as we think.  Including our hair.


----------



## SignatureBeauty (Jun 26, 2010)

jennboo said:


> "it's only hair" yes, yes...the default response, when all else fails.
> 
> (despite paying money to post on a hair board to get tips on how to treat the hair, *considering putting anti-perspirant on your scalp* to keep from having your hair revert to its natural state, pandemonium about wearing you natch hair at job interviews, siggies dedicated to hair journeys/progress pics/in depth regimens, etc.)


 


Are U Serious?


----------



## jennboo (Jun 26, 2010)

lovelexi said:


> Its not just blacks that prefer straight hair, its whites, asians, hispanics, etc. I think its a universal thing. Even Caucasians with naturally curly hair alter their hair by blow drying and flat ironing for a sleeker straighter look


 

Cool. So white people straighten their hair to emulate the look of other white people. Black people also follow suit and straighten their hair to emulate the look of white people. One seems just a wee bit worse, in my opinion.


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## jennboo (Jun 26, 2010)

SignatureBeauty said:


> Are U Serious?


 
Girl YES. I just saw this today in another thread.


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## arosieworld (Jun 26, 2010)

Question and I am truly curious.. If this is still the effects of colonization, slavery, etc. is it an endless cycle? If not when will it end? In 2050 will we still say black women who have straight hair are effected by brainwashing? My father would always say he went through this, this and this so we wouldn't have to. So is this a discussion we are having so our children won't have to? Because it just seems like this conversation never really changes.


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## ~Sparklingflame~ (Jun 26, 2010)

Miryoku said:


> A lot of people say straight hair is easier to take care of... Is it really? Nope.
> 
> Because I've seen lots of black women with straight hair that looks like they don't what to do with it. Or is it because you just think its easier? Nope.
> 
> ...


My responses are in the red.


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## DDTexlaxed (Jun 26, 2010)

This thread had made me so sad. Just because black people wear their hair strait, we're brain washed? White people and other nationalities also do this. Are they also brain washed? This site is supposed to be free from this mentality.  It just makes no kind of sense.


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## ~Sparklingflame~ (Jun 26, 2010)

DDTexlaxed said:


> This thread had made me so sad. Just because black people wear their hair strait, we're brain washed? White people and other nationalities also do this. Are they also brain washed? This site is supposed to be free from this mentality.  It just makes no kind of sense.


Yes, girl we're ALL brainwashed. You aint know?


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## *CherryPie* (Jun 26, 2010)

It IS only hair.

Folks are doing those things that you mentioned for HEALTHY LONG HAIR. That doesn't mean that there's some deeper meaning attatched to it. 




jennboo said:


> "it's only hair" yes, yes...the default response, when all else fails.
> 
> (despite paying money to post on a hair board to get tips on how to treat the hair, considering putting anti-perspirant on your scalp to keep from having your hair revert to its natural state, pandemonium about wearing you natch hair at job interviews, siggies dedicated to hair journeys/progress pics/in depth regimens, etc.)


----------



## JuiceMobsta (Jun 26, 2010)

*CherryPie* said:


> Only if you let it go there.
> 
> There's a lot of things that happens in life that can "disturb" you. It's up to you not to dwell on them.
> 
> ...




I dont think anyone is saying that it is wrong to wear straight hair or that when you wear straight hair it automatically relates to slavery(and I am not either), they are just relating the trend in bw preferring or tending to wear straight hair as stemming from past AND present societal influences. Cultural tendencies DO tend to have a deeper meaning than one might realize and things are not always just what they are, there is more behind what things simply "appear" to be.

No one is living their lives in the "past", they are just giving their opinion on OP's question and looking at it from more of a historical standpoint.


----------



## Americka (Jun 26, 2010)

Chelz said:


> And most blacks preferring straight hair because of them liking the way it looks leads right back to all the history of slavery, and inferiority,etc. ...An endless cycle.





Chelz said:


> I dont think anyone is saying that it is wrong to wear straight hair or that when you wear straight hair it automatically relates to slavery(and I am not either), they are just relating the trend in bw preferring or tending to wear straight hair as stemming from past AND present societal influences. Cultural tendencies DO tend to have a deeper meaning than one might realize and things are not always just what they are, there is more behind what things simply "appear" to be.
> 
> No one is living their lives in the "past", they are just giving their opinion on OP's question and looking at it from more of a historical standpoint.



So what did you mean by the first quote? Help me because I am a tad bit confused.


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## VictoriousBrownFlower (Jun 26, 2010)

I think people take the whole straight hair versus natural hair thing too far. Its hair people. I dont relax because of some deep seeded hate for myself. I relax because my face doesnt look good with short hair. If I didnt have as much shrinkage as a natural head I wouldnt have relaxed. Its just style preference. I actually dont prefer straight hair over curly or natural hair. I just dont look good with short hair. Period....

Do some people do it for other reasons. Sure...But does that mean the majority do????? That type of thinking in my opinion is so judgemental. If society doesnt put people in a box enough we do it to ourselves.


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## JuiceMobsta (Jun 26, 2010)

DDTexlaxed said:


> This thread had made me so sad. Just because black people wear their hair strait, we're brain washed? White people and other nationalities also do this. Are they also brain washed? This site is supposed to be free from this mentality.  It just makes no kind of sense.



No one is necessarily "brainwashed", but white people and other nationalities natural hair is usually widely accepted. Can we say the same for our hair?? Our natural hair is still not widely accepted(although it has improved over the years) and has not been for some time and that is  atleast part of the reason why bw prefer straight hair.


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## Jewell (Jun 26, 2010)

Personally, I used to prefer straight hair, as that is what I was used to, since my mother acted as if my natural hair was unkempt looking and too hard to manage.  However, as I started stretching my relaxers (time between touch-ups), I realized that I preferred the look and feel of my NG much better than the thin, straight, relaxed hair.  I have always loved big, natural, kinky hair on other women, but thought I couldn't attain that for myself.  That is when I transitioned for the 1st time.

It's all about a person's preference and state of mind.  I won't even entertain the thought that every Black woman or person who wears their hair straight is brainwashed.  Thats just a ludicrous and ignorant generalization.  Some people really do have a deep issue with their natural hair (some women in my fam are in that group).  Some just wear straight hair for the manageability.  I had to give up chemicals in order to get to my long, thick, natural hair goals.  A relaxer wasn't going to allow me (in particular) to get to WL and beyond.  The longer it got while relaxed, the thinner it got, no matter how much I trimmed.  So, for me, I have learned to embrace my kinky, wavy hair, but it took time to mentally "transition" and to do so with the hair.  Once you're used to wearing and maintaining straight hair for 20+ years, it takes time to get out of that mindset and routine.


----------



## jennboo (Jun 26, 2010)

DDTexlaxed said:


> This thread had made me so sad. Just because black people wear their hair strait, we're brain washed? White people and other nationalities also do this. Are they also brain washed? This site is supposed to be free from this mentality. It just makes no kind of sense.


 
So...this thread has made you sad...but you feel no type of way about the fact that black folks have been made to not feel comfortable in their own natural skin/hair?

  Well, in that case... that thread about anti perspirant on scalp has made me sad, about folks not getting jobs because ignant white AND black folks have something against our look make me sad, folks scared to grow their hair out of their own heads make me sad, 5 year old little girls with permed and picked out hair bc their mommas wanted to throw a chemical up in their heads make me sad... etc etc etc.

Note: This is all in the context of hair. I know someone will come up in here and  say that all of this hair talk is inconsequential when genocides and extreme poverty are occurring all over the world. This is TRUE. I completely agree. But that is not what is being discussed in this thread.


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## JuiceMobsta (Jun 26, 2010)

Americka said:


> So what did you mean by the first quote? Help me because I am a tad bit confused.



In the first quote I was referring to how if "most" blacks like the way straight hair looks over their natural hair then it may be an ongoing cycle extending from the past.

In the second quote I was saying that it is not anything wrong with an individual wearing their hair straight, its just that when the *majority* of blacks do this, it seems to stem from something that started in the past and is still ongoing.


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## Americka (Jun 26, 2010)

Chelz said:


> In the first quote I was referring to how if "most" blacks like the way straight hair looks over their natural hair then it may be an ongoing cycle extending from the past.
> 
> In the second quote I was saying that it is not anything wrong with an individual wearing their hair straight, its just that when the *majority* of blacks do this, it seems to stem from something that started in the past and is still ongoing.



Thanks for that explanation!


----------



## DDTexlaxed (Jun 26, 2010)

Chelz said:


> No one is necessarily "brainwashed", but white people and other nationalities natural hair is usually widely accepted. Can we say the same for our hair?? Our natural hair is still not widely accepted(although it has improved over the years) and has not been for some time and that is  atleast part of the reason why bw prefer straight hair.



For me it isn't like that. It's easier for me to maintain. I really think that black women should learn to stop caring so much on how other nationalities view them and do what makes them happy.   Why is it only the black woman who has to be ashamed for preferring strait hairstyles just because we have natural curly hair? Other nationalities don't give it a second thought. They just flat iron and keep it moving.


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## dynamic1 (Jun 26, 2010)

Many prefer straight hair by default.  Was it really a choice for many children?  Some adults have never worn their hair in its natural state.  They never learned how to care for it in its natural state.  

If highly textured hair was representative of the dominant culture, would 75% of black women wear relaxers, presses and weaves?  Do you think many women would continue to discourage others from “going natural” or ridicule them when they do?  

Approximately 65% of the world has curly hair.  Other cultures learned to run from their ethnicity as well.  Hair is the easiest ways to accomplish this goal.  

I liked wearing my hair straight and I still like the way it looked today.  While I was relaxed, I never had a problem acknowledging the history of my preference.  I was able to discuss it without being offended or heated.  I cannot say the process of straightening my hair originated from love and acceptance of my natural hair.  

I still think it is _ok_ to wear my hair straight even though I have not tried it for several years.  To the people obviously offended by the discussion, do you believe most black women think it is _ok_ to wear their hair in its natural texture? 

Congratulations to the women with a preference for straight hair, yet still exempt from the social conditioning; you are exceptional.


----------



## dancinstallion (Jun 26, 2010)

*CherryPie* said:


> Some of y'all are way too serious about hair! All of the history of slavery, and inferiority, etc........
> 
> It's getting so old.
> Maybe most blacks prefer straight hair because they like the way it looks.


 The more I watch shows on tv the more I like it. It's called brain washing. Commercials do it all the time with food, clothes or anything they are trying to sell. The more you see it then the more likely you are to buy it or do it. It is proven. So the more I keep seeing long hair the more I want to obtain it. Just so happens the long hair is always straight maybe that is the problem. You never see very long kinky hair walking around the neighborhood or on TV. I don't. I see it on this hair board and you tube but not locally. 



washize said:


> yeah it does get old, but seriously how many post do you read here daily, about how someones mother or grandmother are telling new naturals how bad their hair looks and how they need a relaxer, and how no man or job is going to want them because of their hair. And I know growing up allot of black girls got asked about their wide noses, kinky hair, and blah blah blah. As an adult you see this as ignorance, but as a child it is damaging and you do grow to hate that feature about yourself. Some people realize that there was/is nothing wrong with them, and some people never get over the damage
> 
> It* is really getting old*, hopefully the new generations can let kinky and black be free. I know when I adopt my children and they ask "mom why isn't my hair or my skin, or est like this, I'm going to say *because you are not white.* Why don't they look like you? Your hair is beautiful and you are beautiful"


 The old becomes new everytime someone tells their kids that. So It will never die as long as people keep the tradition up of telling others what to do with their hair. I have cousins in their 20's that continue to tell me to relax my hair and why do I want to walk around like that. So it lives on. 

My husband keeps telling me "You are not white so stop trying to grow your hair long and keep it straight" It is so funny because you said the same thing. 



jennboo said:


> Red bolded: That's it, point blank period.
> 
> If we were the dominant race who had colonized, ruled, and oppressed european cultures at the time with our kinky hair and dark skin, kinky hair and dark skin would be the ideal. Since it happened the other way, we subscribe to the white skin/straighter hair ideal even though it is impossible for us to attain that.
> Black folks idolizing straight hair and light skin is not a coincidence. *It has jack to do with ease of styling, manageability and any of the other reasons thrown around*.


 I agree But I do think ease of styling does play a role. It is easier to not comb your hair when it straight and still look presentable. You can pull it back into a pony tail. But when your hair is kinky/curly then you have to comb it to pull it in a pony tail or put a product on it to lay it down. Not every natural/culy haired person can do a wash and go and it looks presentable. I know I couldn't. 



lovelexi said:


> Its not just blacks that prefer straight hair, its whites, asians, hispanics, etc. I think its a universal thing. Even Caucasians with naturally curly hair alter their hair by blow drying and flat ironing for a sleeker straighter look


 I beleive it is embedded in them also to want straight hair. Asians/indians have complexion issues too because there are dark skinned indians that get treated inferior.


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## justicefighter1913 (Jun 26, 2010)

~Sparklingflame~ said:


> Yes, girl we're ALL brainwashed. You aint know?


 

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OT, but if you all haven't read the new book called "Brainwashed" by Tom Burrell you *SHOULD!!!!  *The book is extremely informative and might be able to shed some light on the historical remnants of brainwashing that we still suffer from today.  He specifically looks at the world of advertising and how it has been used to sell the negative image of AA to both non-AA and AA.  He's a former advertising executive, the first AA to have a major advertising firm.  A very interesing read.

**Back to your regularly scheduled program**


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## PearlyCurly (Jun 26, 2010)

*CherryPie* said:


> Some of y'all are way too serious about hair!
> 
> All of the history of slavery, and inferiority, etc........
> 
> ...




It is getting very old 
These threads are on some kind of a cycle, like every week or two weeks this same thread comes up. 
My question is.. Why are these women always worrying about how someone else wears their hair? I know this is a hair forum but i thought this hair forum was made to embrace our BLACK hair whether we wear it straight, curly, afro, or bald
Im tired of these stories, about how all women who wear their hair straight hates their self and their own race. Blah, Blah, Blah! Since when can a hair style tell if you hate your self or not? 
What if theres a black women who wears a big ol' afro, but is secretly trying to re-enslave black folks? I guess yall will give her a pass because she is a natural huh? Whats that saying? "Devil in disguise"?!
I guess because i am texlaxed i must half way hate myself 
....
God forbid i might leave the relaxer on an extra minute or two..


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## *CherryPie* (Jun 26, 2010)

jennboo said:


> So...this thread has made you sad...but you feel no type of way about the fact that black folks have been made to not feel comfortable in their own natural skin/hair?
> 
> Well, in that case... that thread about anti perspirant on scalp has made me sad, about folks not getting jobs because ignant white AND black folks have something against our look make me sad, folks scared to grow their hair out of their own heads make me sad, 5 year old little girls with permed and picked out hair bc their mommas wanted to throw a chemical up in their heads make me sad... etc etc etc.
> 
> Note: This is all in the context of hair. I know someone will come up in here and say that all of this hair talk is inconsequential when genocides and extreme poverty are occurring all over the world. This is TRUE. I completely agree. But that is not what is being discussed in this thread.


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## kismettt (Jun 26, 2010)

for me personally.  when i was growing up i preferred straight hair because i believed it was prettier.  all the girls in my class had long, straight or wavy hair (not kinky like mine).  i was adopted by a white family, so everyone in my family had straight/wavy hair.  all the images i saw in the media, were of women with straight hair.  i wanted straight hair because i thought that was pretty, that's what boys like, and when i had long straight hair everyone fell over themselves asking how i did it/how beautiful it was/"are you mixed???".  especially black people.

i was natural for about 2 years (soph & jr year of college, i graduated college this month)  i relaxed again because i wasn't taking care of it/didn't know how to take care of it.  my hair wasn't growing and i wore the same style daily.  i'm relaxed now (texlaxed on my ends).  i wear my hair in a wash & go ponytail more often than not.  i wear my hair straight every once in a while.  mainly because i'm lazy.  i'd like to go back to natural but i want to grow my hair out relaxed first because i'm sick of short hair/being shoulder length because i was constantly cutting it to go natural then relaxed & having to chop off all the dead ends because i had no idea what i was doing with my natural hair.  


so for me, i straightened my hair because i was constantly receiving the message that straight hair is better.  my mom took me to a beauty salon at 6 years old.  they slicked my hair straight with gel and put a phony pony on it.    they insisted i get a relaxer before 10.  my mom had no idea and just believed the black salons because they were "professionals".  i received the message that it's okay to burn a child with a chemical so her hair is "pretty". my mom tried to explain to me when i was young that my hair was never going to be like hers, but i didn't believe her because i saw black girls with straight hair like hers.   

i think it varies for every black person, environment/upbringing.  i'd say mine is a product of environment (raised mostly around whites/non-blacks), having little exposure to blacks (and those that i was exposed to lovedddd straight hair), and media.


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## JuiceMobsta (Jun 26, 2010)

DDTexlaxed said:


> For me it isn't like that. It's easier for me to maintain. I really think that black women should learn to stop caring so much on how other nationalities view them and do what makes them happy.   Why is it only the black woman who has to be ashamed for preferring strait hairstyles just because we have natural curly hair? Other nationalities don't give it a second thought. They just flat iron and keep it moving.



Lol, no one said bw have to be ashamed and no one said that it applies to each and every individual. We are talking about bw as a WHOLE. We tend to alter our texture the most. Whether permanently or not.


----------



## CheLala13 (Jun 26, 2010)

Right, it just happens to be a coincidence that the texture that is most preferred, 99% of African descent people don't have. I understand people wanting to have straight hair, but don't act like it was all your idea one day and that other people haven't influenced your decision.


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## nikolite (Jun 26, 2010)

DDTexlaxed said:


> For me it isn't like that. It's easier for me to maintain. I really think that black women should learn to stop caring so much on how other nationalities view them and do what makes them happy.   Why is it only the black woman who has to be ashamed for preferring strait hairstyles just because we have natural curly hair? Other nationalities don't give it a second thought. They just flat iron and keep it moving.



I'm confused.  Other races have straight hair already.  Are you talking about bone straight versus lightly wavy?  In that case, I don't think it matters.  No one else prefers straight hair, they are preferring their OWN hair, which makes sense.  Black people who have completely different hair not preferring their own hair EN MASSE is weird IMO.

I don't see curly/wavy haired white, Latino, Indian, Middle Eastern, etc. women wearing relaxers to make sure that their hair is bone straight at all times.  They could wear relaxers and never have to flat iron but they don't.  (they'd have to have it in for maybe 30 seconds but still).  They flat-iron sometimes, not all the time.  They don't run from water when it rains or sprint inside the house after swimming.  They may wear it as a style occasionally or for a few months (as I and many other naturals do) but they typically do not alter their hair for decades at a time like many black women do.  

Relaxed hair may be easier for you to maintain, but many literally think they are ugly the way they were created.  (They don't think about why they think they are ugly). Some black women are afraid of their own texture.  They rather be caught dead than have their SO's see their napps.  Just because our texture isn't managed in the same way as someone else's doesn't make it "unmanageable" as many say, its just that we have to manage it differently.  I've never heard of any of these reasons from women of other races.  They largely alter their hair out of a style choice (and it appears that way because its temporary and they can walk out the house the way they are without feeling ugly).


----------



## jennboo (Jun 26, 2010)

dynamic1 said:


> Many prefer straight hair by default. Was it really a choice for many children? Some adults have never worn their hair in its natural state. They never learned how to care for it in its natural state.
> 
> If highly textured hair was representative of the dominant culture, would 75% of black women wear relaxers, presses and weaves? Do you think many women would continue to discourage others from “going natural” or ridicule them when they do?
> 
> ...


 
  Bolded: Exactly. I have so much respect for women who are able to essentially say "Well, i wear my hair straight, I'm non-apologetic about it, I'm going to continue to wear it straight...but i'm not delusional, I KNOW where the preference stems from".  So much respect. To me, relaxed heads with that mentality are truly comfortable with their decision, and i cannot knock that...at all.


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## nikolite (Jun 26, 2010)

jennboo said:


> Bolded: Exactly. I have so much respect for women who are able to essentially say "Well, i wear my hair straight, I'm non-apologetic about it, I'm going to continue to wear it straight...but i'm not delusional, I KNOW where the preference stems from".  So much respect. To me, relaxed heads with that mentality are truly comfortable with their decision, and i cannot knock that...at all.



I agree.  And I still feel the same way as *dynamic1 *sometimes, even as a natural, I can't help but see the images of long straight hair and think its absolutely gorgeous and wish it was me.  Its rare, but it happens.  

Luckily I've learned to take care of my hair and love it for what it is.  I flat-ironed once and it became quickly boring and dull to me after a week.  My father and hubbie also showed me a lot of praise after my BC and told me I was beautiful all the time, which helps.  I understand that many people who BC get nasty, mean comments and its an uphill battle going against the relaxed standard.  But at least be aware of your choice and then do you.  (When my white friend told me why she constantly dyed her hair blonde, she had no delusions and acknowledged why).  There's nothing wrong with that.


----------



## dancinstallion (Jun 26, 2010)

arosieworld said:


> Question and I am truly curious.. If this is still the effects of colonization, slavery, etc.* is it an endless cycle*? If not when will it end? In 2050 will we still say black women who have straight hair are effected by brainwashing? My father would always say he went through this, this and this so we wouldn't have to. So is this a discussion we are having so our children won't have to? Because it just seems like this conversation never really changes.


 
It will continue to be an endless cycle as long as people don't break the chain. It will be everlasting as long as it is still an issue. because hair relaxing is the only thing that has continued for all of these years whether its by chose, versatility, slavery or brainswashing.  



DDTexlaxed said:


> This thread had made me so sad. Just because black people wear their hair strait, we're brain washed? White *people and other nationalities also do this. Are they also brain washed*? This site is supposed to be free from this mentality. It just makes no kind of sense.


 *Brain washing is alive and well in every nationality*. ( I am not saying blacks are brain washed). Tribes in all cultures continue to beleive their tribe is superior and can't marry outside the tribe. Certain things are passed down to children and it contiues on through adulthood. Then that becomes tradition. Alot of muslim women cover their hair which started from being oppressed by men. It is a tradition for them and are considered taboos when you don't cover your hair. Some black people in america feel it is taboo not to relax. You can no longer oppress black people in any other way, But when you mention hair then we get sensitive. We have a complex about hair. (I know I do). 



DDTexlaxed said:


> For me it isn't like that. *It's easier for me to maintain.* I really think that black women should learn to stop caring so much on how other nationalities view them and do what makes them happy. Why is it only the black woman who has to be ashamed for preferring strait hairstyles just because we have natural curly hair? *Other nationalities don't give it a second thought*. They just flat iron and keep it moving.


 
I totally agree. Other nationalities keep it moving and don't dare break the chain and stop doing what tradion has always done. And they don't give it a second thought. YT people do dye their hair blonde and keep it moving, EVEN though they are trying to assimalte with the BLONDE HAIR BLUE EYED mentality That blondes is better and have more fun type.


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## dynamic1 (Jun 26, 2010)

*CherryPie* said:


> *It IS only hair.*
> 
> Folks are doing those things that you mentioned for HEALTHY LONG HAIR. That doesn't mean that there's some deeper meaning attatched to it.


 
By the same token, this is *only* a discussion about hair! Why attach a deeper meaning to it?


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## dancinstallion (Jun 26, 2010)

Ginx  We posted at the same time about yt women dyeing their hair blonde. 



nikolite said:


> I agree. And I still feel the same way as *dynamic1 *sometimes, even as a natural, I can't help but see the images of long straight hair and think its absolutely gorgeous and wish it was me. Its rare, but it happens.
> 
> Luckily I've learned to take care of my hair and love it for what it is. I flat-ironed once and it became quickly boring and dull to me after a week. My father and hubbie also showed me a lot of praise after my BC and told me I was beautiful all the time, which helps. I understand that many people who BC get nasty, mean comments and its an uphill battle going against the relaxed standard. But at least be aware of your choice and then do you. (When my white friend told me why she constantly dyed her hair blonde, she had no delusions and acknowledged why). There's nothing wrong with that.


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## SignatureBeauty (Jun 26, 2010)

I don't prefer straight hair and seems I look funny with bone straight hair on my Full face LOL!! I have been Natural & Relaxed, Now I am Texturized and still have kinky hair, but I do understand what Jennboo is saying, but for me, I was raised on Relaxing my hair, and everyone around me done it, so I thought that was what we was suppose to do, or press it weekly or get a Jherri Curl etc.  I use to think, why do i have to get this done to my head, when others can just wash n go? but I was a child then, so most if not all kids don't have a choice when it comes to their hair. then they don't teach them how to care for it, my daughters friend had beautiful Natural hair that came to her waist, and she was a 4a, her mom grew tired of it and relaxed it, and didn't care for it and now she is neck length and it is thin and has been that way for the last 4 years.

I Like both Natural & Relaxed Hair!


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## VictoriousBrownFlower (Jun 26, 2010)

It seems like its more about proving your blackness than anything else. I dont have to bc and wear a fro to say I'm proud to be black. Being proud of who you are goes deeper than your style or hair choices. If it was as simple as that then we can all wear kente clothes and rock fros singing black power and thats it. No more hate discussions...but its not that simple.

Why do light skinned women or mixed women get persieved as less than by the power to the black people type?????INSECURITY!!!

To me it all stems from insecurity. The naturals that wanna bash relaxed heads and the relaxed heads that wanna bash naturals. 

Also what about the texlaxed ladies?? Are they only half as self hating as the bone laxed individuals?


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## lushcoils (Jun 26, 2010)

Wonders if the question was, "Why do so many blacks find their natural hair unattractive?" ...would people still say things like, "...It has nothing to do with slavery, colonization, social conditioning, the media, etc... It's not about history people..it's just hair..." ?


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## nikolite (Jun 26, 2010)

dancinstallion said:


> Ginx  We posted at the same time about yt women dyeing their hair blonde.



LOL  :blush3:


----------



## Southernbella. (Jun 26, 2010)

When I was relaxed, I preferred straight hair because I thought everyone was supposed to have it. Relaxing was a ritual in my family and I really had no concept of natural hair. 

Now that I am natural, I prefer straight hair _sometimes _because I like the feeling of my hair blowing and falling down my back. People respond very positively towards it, and sometimes that feels good. Sometimes it makes me feel bad. It really depends on the day.

I'm very conscious of what these choices mean and where the desire comes from (for _me_). Long, flowing hair gives one a lot of cultural capital in the black community. Being able to attain something that is virtually unattainable for the majority of us propels a black woman to a different status. It makes you stand out, while at the same time rendering you less different. It puts you on the same level as every other long-haired woman of any race. 

I acknowledge all that, for _me_. When I'm at that point, I straighten, and I enjoy it until wash day. Then I enjoy my kinks for what _they _are and what they mean to me.


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## nikolite (Jun 26, 2010)

BronxJazzy said:


> It seems like its more about proving your blackness than anything else. I dont have to bc and wear a fro to say I'm proud to be black. Being proud of who you are goes deeper than your style or hair choices. If it was as simple as that then we can all wear kente clothes and rock fros singing black power and thats it. No more hate discussions...but its not that simple.
> 
> *Why do light skinned women or mixed women get persieved as less than by the power to the black people type?????INSECURITY!!!*
> 
> ...



I don't think walking out of the house the way I was naturally made is me trying to prove to someone that I am black.  It sure does show it (obviously), but what's wrong with that?  Its kind of sad that that's somehow a revolutionary and extreme thing for black woman to do to some people.  

Do you think a woman who hides under a hat when she needs a touch-up is "proud" of her hair?  So can a person who has bleached their skin, relaxed their hair, wearing blue eye contacts, and has gotten surgery on their nose to look long and thin also be proud to be black? 

I think you actually can be proud to be black and relaxed, but not acknowledging why you are doing it doesn't look like pride to me.  It looks like shame. 

And why does wearing ones hair natural show insecurity to you?  That makes no sense to me.  What exactly would I be insecure about?  I still have brown skin and the "black experience."  I also don't see any bashing being done in this thread or a lot of others.  I'm not sure where you're coming from...

To the *bolded*, what does that have to do with this discussion?

ETA: Oops, I broke the jinx.


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## JuiceMobsta (Jun 26, 2010)

BronxJazzy said:


> It seems like its more about proving your blackness than anything else. I dont have to bc and wear a fro to say I'm proud to be black. *Being proud of who you are goes deeper than your style or hair choices.* If it was as simple as that then we can all wear kente clothes and rock fros singing black power and thats it. No more hate discussions...but its not that simple.
> 
> Why do light skinned women or mixed women get persieved as less than by the power to the black people type?????INSECURITY!!!
> 
> ...



I'm pretty sure this is not a relaxed vs. natural thread.

Being proud of who you are may go deeper than that but it starts at the surface(i.e. your appearance)


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## Sianna (Jun 26, 2010)

Personally, I never _preferred_ straight hair. For years I relaxed my hair out of habit, because I didn't know what else to do with it, and because I felt I was "supposed" to do it. I had never really considered anything else and if I had, I would have assumed that my own natural texture would be too difficult to manage and that the only styles I would be able to wear were an afro, a puff or dreads. 

Really though, I have always liked textured hair, and not necessarily curly. I really like how natural hair looks when it is blown out. You know, when the hair is stretched out, yet you can still see the texture and it is not bone straight. I love big, fluffy hair!

My ideal hair will be at least APL, highly textured, (possibly lightly texlaxed) fluffy, and HUGE!!


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## dynamic1 (Jun 26, 2010)

BronxJazzy said:


> *It seems like its more about proving your blackness than anything else. I dont have to bc and wear a fro to say I'm proud to be black. Being proud of who you are goes deeper than your style or hair choices. If it was as simple as that then we can all wear kente clothes and rock fros singing black power and thats it. No more hate discussions...but its not that simple.*
> 
> Why do light skinned women or mixed women get persieved as less than by the power to the black people type?????INSECURITY!!!
> 
> ...


 
Where did all of this come from?  Why is discussing the history of black women and straight hair equivalent to bashing?  Where did posters say "you aren't a proud black woman" if you wear straight hair?  Black power... .


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## Gigi-07 (Jun 26, 2010)

When are we going to stop feeling like we have to answer for everything we do?
I rarely hear white women having to explain why they like boob jobs so much.


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## RedVelvet310 (Jun 26, 2010)

I get the most compliments (from blacks and whites) when my hair is in a curly fro *kanyeshrug*


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## JuiceMobsta (Jun 26, 2010)

Gigi-07 said:


> When are we going to stop feeling like we have to answer for everything we do?
> *I rarely hear white women having to explain why they like boob jobs so much.*



What does that have to do with anything...


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## ConstantlyDynamic (Jun 26, 2010)

nowhere in this thread did anyone say that black women who straighten their hair are less "black" than naturals. i hate when people come into a discussion and put words in people's mouths. nowhere does it say that it is bad to straighten your hair either especially since tons of naturals on this board have been relaxed at some point or straighten their hair at times. however, part of being educated in general is knowing that society is a construct point blank and there are social ways on thinking that are embedded in us. i don't have a problem with people straightening their hair and i occasionally straighten mine but i refuse to be ignorant about the history of black women using relaxers or about how colonization affects us even today. if you believe that the history of colonization has no effect then you must not believe in prejudice seeing that prejudice is a product of that very history. or when a black person lightens himself/herself because they think light skin is prettier, it must just be a preference right? they just like it lol (btw lightening your skin does not make you less black than anyone else-it just means that you were conditioned to feel that light skin is better and you discovered a means to achieve that look-imo it's just less socially acceptable than using relaxers)

and can people please stop bringing up white women's hair practices? lol yes, curly-haired white women straighten their hair (most don't do it chemically btw- they are similar to heat-trained naturals in that way) BUT you don't see white women flat-ironing their children's hair to make it straight whereas many black women are putting chemicals on their children's hair. you can't compare what white women are doing with their hair to what we do because even our children are subjected to these ideas of beauty. it's not even on the same level


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## lushcoils (Jun 26, 2010)

dynamic1 said:


> Where did all of this come from?  Why is discussing the history of black women and straight hair equivalent to bashing?  Where did posters say "you aren't a proud black woman" if you wear straight hair?  Black power... .



Right, people are bringing about accusations that no one has even brought up in this thread. Why are they so defensive? Why can't we have deep discussions about hair?

There's a reason why no one makes post like, "If I straighten my hair, will I still get a man? A job? will people make fun of me? Be respected in society...?" or "My mama tells me that my relaxed hair is ugly" etc. Some people have self-hatred whether they are relaxed or natural. That's not what this thread is about.


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## nikolite (Jun 26, 2010)

Gigi-07 said:


> When are we going to stop feeling like we have to answer for everything we do?
> I rarely hear white women having to explain why they like boob jobs so much.



LOTS of white women (and black women) talk about this.  Try looking at any feminist forums and you'll here this type of discussion.  Many white women deal with and try to resist similar "beauty norms", although they rarely have anything to do with race and much to do with gender.


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## Gigi-07 (Jun 26, 2010)

Chelz said:


> What does that have to do with anything...



It has to do with groups of people with preferences for whatever they want to do with their bodies....feeling like they have to answer for what they do.
Many black women like to relax. Many white women like to have breast augmentation procdeures. Both body mod in some form, but WE often find ourselves having to explain why we don't hate who we are, or the 156,788 reasons behind our decision...


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## jennboo (Jun 26, 2010)

bkprincess617 said:


> nowhere in this thread did anyone say that black women who straighten their hair are less "black" than naturals. i hate when people come into a discussion and put words in people's mouths. nowhere does it say that it is bad to straighten your hair either especially since tons of naturals on this board have been relaxed at some point or straighten their hair at times. however, part of being educated in general is knowing that society is a construct point blank and there are social ways on thinking that are embedded in us. *i don't have a problem with people straightening their hair and i occasionally straighten mine but i refuse to be ignorant about the history of black women using relaxers or about how colonization affects us even today.* if you believe that the history of colonization has no effect then you must not believe in prejudice seeing that prejudice is a product of that very history. or when a black person lightens himself/herself because they think light skin is prettier, it must just be a preference right? they just like it lol (btw lightening your skin does not make you less black than anyone else-it just means that you were conditioned to feel that light skin is better and you discovered a means to achieve that look-imo it's just less socially acceptable than using relaxers)
> 
> and can people please stop bringing up white women's hair practices? lol yes, curly-haired white women straighten their hair (most don't do it chemically btw- they are similar to heat-trained naturals in that way) BUT you don't see white women flat-ironing their children's hair to make it straight whereas many black women are putting chemicals on their children's hair. you can't compare what white women are doing with their hair to what we do because even our children are subjected to these ideas of beauty. it's not even on the same level


 Preach!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## nikolite (Jun 26, 2010)

Bri505 said:


> I get the most compliments (from blacks and whites) when my hair is in a curly fro *kanyeshrug*



Me too!

More from whites though.  I usually get the "...it would be so long and pretty if you permed it though..." from blacks afterwards.


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## GeauXavi (Jun 26, 2010)

well...

nobody ever stops to think about it in a non white v black stance imo. i have a round face...AND i look young with curls. I look better when i have my hair framing my face. point blank period. Keep in mind that i'm a former natural, and currently transitioning. I love the ease of flexi rod sets, so by no means am i afraid of the kink or curl.

BUT  i feel sexy with straight hair, because i know that the shape/style of my hair is complementing my face. Just like the rihanna/keri hilson cut isn't for everyone, neither is the round fro. That's why our hair is so amazing...because we can rock it however we want, whether it's to flatter our features or express our individuality.

edited to add: i'm attaching photos so you can see my point excuse the stink face on the last pic


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## *CherryPie* (Jun 26, 2010)

What are you talking about?

ME attatch a deeper meaning to it?! 

The ones that's taliking about slavery, inferiority, "the everlasting" cycle, etc...

Those are the ones who are attatching a deeper meaning to it.

I said that it's only hair...and that they should stop attaching a deeper meaning to it.

Maybe you need to re-read this thread.



dynamic1 said:


> By the same token, this is *only* a discussion about hair! Why attach a deeper meaning to it?


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## DDTexlaxed (Jun 26, 2010)

*CherryPie* said:


> What are you talking about?
> 
> ME attatch a deeper meaning to it?!
> 
> ...




Thank you, ma'am!:notworthy


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## dynamic1 (Jun 26, 2010)

Gigi-07 said:


> When are we going to stop feeling like we have to answer for everything we do?
> *I rarely hear white women having to explain why they like boob jobs so much*.


 
I will take the bait.  

Do >75% of white women obtain boob jobs?
Do you think if you were a a web board dedicated to breasts (augmented and natural) the subject might come up? 
How did you discover white women do not have these discussions?
So white people never have anything negative to say about plastic surgery?

Why are we discussing white people again?


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## Gigi-07 (Jun 26, 2010)

The accusations against us almost ALWAYS have implications that we lack racial pride. Like others have said in this thread, many different races relax their curls. So why are BW_ singled out_ all the time? I could point to many other types of body mod popular within each racial group.

No one is specifically pointing at the ww and ask her specifically why likes boob jobs (because it's most prevalent amongst them) or why more and more asian women are getting eye surgery.

I'm more irritated by the fact that we are asked this so much, than the fact that many bw may actually be relaxing for the wrong reasons. (You can think that's backwards all you want, but that's what I wanted to address *concerning the OP*) I'm not discussing relaxed vs. natural, I almost never join these discussions because I think the discussions, on a site on which most of us already know the good hair v. bad hair deal, is a waste and leads to unnecessary back and forth.

And i see people are throwing around the "defensive" stuff already, so I'll leave my posts in this thread at that. I feel like I should have known better.


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## dynamic1 (Jun 26, 2010)

*CherryPie* said:


> What are you talking about?
> 
> ME attatch a deeper meaning to it?!
> 
> ...


 
Again, it is just a discussion and these are just opinions expressed to answer the OP's question.  If it is just hair, it isn't deeper than that.


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## Latomian (Jun 26, 2010)

Gosh, I didn't like straight hair growing up. I cried on the day my mother made me get a relaxer (I was 13). Today, I don't have a preference. I love straight hair and absolutely love curly hair...it's just versatility. There's something cool about the ability to change your look day to day. I know many people who are non-black who love straight hair b/c they naturally have curly and this one girl of Asian descent told me that she's always loved curly hair but her hair was so hard to curl. While I agree that some people may prefer straight hair to assimilate to some kind of tacit societal "law," I believe that delineation has steadily disintegrated as the years have gone by and black women are just showing that yes, I can rock my hair anyway I want to, curly or straight.


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## CheLala13 (Jun 26, 2010)

You can honestly say there isn't a deeper meaning attached to hair?

So when a black child is born and the family looks at that soft, wavy hair with sad eyes wishing it would stay that way? And when that child is 5 and the mother complains about not being able to deal with "that nappy shi*" or when that child gets a relaxer by the age of 7? Because this isn't just one child, this is a lot of black children. Let's go ahead and pretend that if blacks were the only race with naturally straight hair and everyone else had curly, straight hair would be preferred? I DON'T have anything against straight hair, because that is your choice. But when that choice is being forced upon others, you have to realize that there is a deeper meaning. Just as there is a deeper meaning when you don't let your Alek colored daughter play in the sun too long, but it's okay for her Rihanna colored cousin.

ETA: Honestly, I don't believe most black people want to be white. But those who have influenced us the most WERE affected by whites. Other disclaimers: If you are relaxed, you are not less than black. All I want is for people to look deep down inside of themseleves and understand where their motivations come from. So even if the question isn't "why do I prefer straight hair" maybe it should be "why do I strongly NOT prefer the hair that grows out of my head?"


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## JuiceMobsta (Jun 26, 2010)

Gigi-07 said:


> The accusations against us almost ALWAYS have implications that we lack racial pride. Like others have said in this thread, many different races relax their curls. So why are BW_ singled out_ all the time? I could point to many other types of body mod popular within each racial group.
> 
> No one is specifically pointing at the ww and ask her specifically why likes boob jobs (because it's most prevalent amongst them) or why more and more asian women are getting eye surgery.
> 
> ...



Hair modification and body modification are two completely different things.


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## ButtaSmooth (Jun 26, 2010)

I personally wear my hair straight right now because I like the way it looks on ME. I've worn my hair in it's natural state, I liked that as well, but I still think I look better with straight hair. There is no deeper meaning to wearing straight for ME other than I like it and at any moment I could change my mind and decide to transition (I've done it before). However, I can't speak for every black woman on Earth. None of us can. I know the history of the relaxer. I understand assimilation. I know there are women out there that relax their hair to "fit in" and there are some of us that do it because we honestly like it.


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## LovingLady (Jun 26, 2010)

bkprincess617 said:


> nowhere in this thread did anyone say that black women who straighten their hair are less "black" than naturals. i hate when people come into a discussion and put words in people's mouths. nowhere does it say that it is bad to straighten your hair either especially since tons of naturals on this board have been relaxed at some point or straighten their hair at times. however, part of being educated in general is knowing that society is a construct point blank and there are social ways on thinking that are embedded in us. *i don't have a problem with people straightening their hair and i occasionally straighten mine but i refuse to be ignorant about the history of black women using relaxers or about how colonization affects us even today.* if you believe that the history of colonization has no effect then you must not believe in prejudice seeing that prejudice is a product of that very history. or when a black person lightens himself/herself because they think light skin is prettier, it must just be a preference right? they just like it lol (btw lightening your skin does not make you less black than anyone else-it just means that you were conditioned to feel that light skin is better and you discovered a means to achieve that look-imo it's just less socially acceptable than using relaxers)
> 
> and can people please stop bringing up white women's hair practices? lol yes, curly-haired white women straighten their hair (most don't do it chemically btw- they are similar to heat-trained naturals in that way) BUT you don't see white women flat-ironing their children's hair to make it straight whereas many black women are putting chemicals on their children's hair. *you can't compare what white women are doing with their hair to what we do because even our children are subjected to these ideas of beauty. *it's not even on the same level



Thank you for this. 

There is nothing wrong with straight hair but you should know why  majority of black women do it.  Something doesn't come from nothing, if you watch the documentary 400 years without a comb you ladies will be able to see that. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cMf1heTa6A


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## dynamic1 (Jun 26, 2010)

Gigi-07 said:


> The accusations against us almost ALWAYS have implications that we lack racial pride. *Like others have said in this thread, many different races relax their curls.* So why are BW_ singled out_ all the time? I could point to many other types of body mod popular within each racial group.
> 
> *No one is specifically pointing at the ww and ask her specifically why likes boob jobs (because it's most prevalent amongst them) or why more and more asian women are getting eye surgery.*


 
Have you been to naturallycurly.com? Other cultures have the same conversation about hair.  

There have been many topics on the subject in the media.  Asian people do have these discussions but why would we be discussing them here?

Chinese on blast about their "preference".  http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20100625/wl_mcclatchy/3548235_1


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## VictoriousBrownFlower (Jun 26, 2010)

nikolite said:


> *I don't think walking out of the house the way I was naturally made is me trying to prove to someone that I am black.* It sure does show it (obviously), but what's wrong with that? Its kind of sad that that's somehow a revolutionary and extreme thing for black woman to do to some people.
> 
> *Do you think a woman who hides under a hat when she needs a touch-up is "proud" of her hair? So can a person who has bleached their skin, relaxed their hair, wearing blue eye contacts, and has gotten surgery on their nose to look long and thin also be proud to be black?*
> 
> ...


 
answers to the bolded:

No, being natural doesnt prove anything to me but; trying to make others feel bad for their preference is insecure. I feel like your trying to say well I'm more proud of myself than you because I'm natural and you're a self hating relaxer. 

To say that the majority of black women prefer straight hair because of some social conditioning that stems from slavery, we're all being brainwashed to believe the hype of straight hair...*It stems from some type of insecurity you have within yourself and what you believe being black means. *

I do think some black women hate themselves and they deal with it in different ways. Some go to the far left of trying to "look white" others go on the far right of trying to be as black as they can. All to hide their insecurities (doing something for others instead of yourself for acceptance into a group.) Neither of those examples are the majority of black women.

You want us all to acknowledge that we have some deeper meaning behind why we staighten our hair and for some they do. There are examples in this thread alone of that but others dont. 

I didnt grow up in that type of environment. I didnt know the seed was soo deep within some of us until I came on this and other pradominately black hair forums. Maybe I'm the exception and if so I agree with ddtexlaxed its sad....


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## Bella_Atl (Jun 26, 2010)

ThePerfectScore said:


> I'll just copy and modify what I wrote in regards to my Interracial dating blog entry:
> 
> [This is] the same thing that racist have been doing to us since forever. Placing a hierarchy on race. It's okay to acknowledge differences, because there are physical and cultural differences between the races, but don't rank one race better than the other because it's just not true.
> 
> ...


 

I agree 100%.  I also think times have changed a lot for the younger generation.  I have a white gf that brags about her "ghetto" booty and my son (who is 13 years old) as a best friend that is Jewish.  His outfit isn't complete without the pick in his " Jewfro".  So a black girl bragging about having "the white girl flo" isn't really to much off the mark for her generation.  I think we (older generation AA) are just more sensitive to it. Perhaps?  20 years ago I can't remember any White kids bragging about having big butts and kinky hair.


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## lushcoils (Jun 26, 2010)

CheLala13 said:


> You can honestly say there isn't a deeper meaning attached to hair?



Ignorance is bliss. 

ETA: It may not be deep for you (general you) personally, but I'm not understanding the denial of hair politics in the black community overall.


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## Gigi-07 (Jun 26, 2010)

People are reading different something different than what I posted. hmmm. RIF

ETA: I only say return to this "discussion" to say one thing, and that is if you're going to refer to what I'm saying (directly or indirectly), at least make a correct reference to what I've said.
NO ONE's ignoring that plenty of black women relax out of self-hate. I can't believe I even have to SAY this, on a forum where we all KNOW that we ALL read about this issue constantly.


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## ConstantlyDynamic (Jun 26, 2010)

Gigi-07 said:


> The accusations against us almost ALWAYS have implications that we lack racial pride. Like others have said in this thread, many different races relax their curls. So why are BW_ singled out_ all the time? I could point to many other types of body mod popular within each racial group.
> 
> *No one is specifically pointing at the ww and ask her specifically why likes boob jobs (because it's most prevalent amongst them) or why more and more asian women are getting eye surgery.
> *



this is a hair board. why would we talk about boobs and eye surgery? i have heard MANY Asians talk about the prevalence of eye surgeries in the Asian community. my Asian friends are staunchly against it and believe it's a sign of self-hatred. the people who do eye surgeries tend to say that they just like the look and they think it's prettier on them. i'm not going to get into whether or not i think it's a sign of self-hatred but i will say that there is a reason why these surgeries are prevalent and it's not as simple as "i just like it". breast augmentation is more related to gender studies and i've heard many feminists speak in disdain about this trend. bw are being singled out now because there are mainly black women on this site (am i right? i don't know the stats but that's what i've observed) so we are more likely to discuss black hair practices.


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## *CherryPie* (Jun 26, 2010)

Girl, you need to read this thread again. 



dynamic1 said:


> Again, it is just a discussion and these are just opinions expressed to answer the OP's question. If it is just hair, it isn't deeper than that.


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## DDTexlaxed (Jun 26, 2010)

jennboo said:


> So...this thread has made you sad...but you feel no type of way about the fact that black folks have been made to not feel comfortable in their own natural skin/hair?
> 
> Well, in that case... that thread about anti perspirant on scalp has made me sad, about folks not getting jobs because ignant white AND black folks have something against our look make me sad, folks scared to grow their hair out of their own heads make me sad, 5 year old little girls with permed and picked out hair bc their mommas wanted to throw a chemical up in their heads make me sad... etc etc etc.
> 
> I know in my case, I find it hard to handle short natural hair because it makes me more masculine looking. My shape and build just does not support the short natural look. HOWEVER, it may not be that way for all. I've been called Sir too many times than I care for.  I would ideally love to have long natural hair, but I prefer strait hair because I know how good it looks on me. I have never had long natural hair.  I still feel that a lot of people enjoy the freedom of choice. Why should we be looked down upon for preferring strait hair?  I don't worry about what others do with their hair or their child's hair. It's not my place to judge them. 400 Years Without a Comb does not apply to everybody.


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## GeauXavi (Jun 26, 2010)

you know what i just realized?

new thread. new day. same discussion.

it really seems like these threads that are popping up are putting so many people in the hot seat... "why are you relaxed?" "if you're natural and you straighten...are you natural?" People are having to defend their right to do whatever they gosh darn please with their hair.

seriously...can we go back to discussing products and hair retention methods? this forum is beginning to get super-divided...and i don't remember it being so heated when i first started lurking 5 yrs ago....I almost feel silly for even participating in these debates.

ok rant over... **flips straightened hair and exits thread**


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## NaturalPath (Jun 26, 2010)




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## CheLala13 (Jun 26, 2010)

Personally, I love discussions like this because they make you think about your decisions. You may be that person who gets a relaxer because YOU wanted it. Not because your mom forced you to by the age of 10, not because you feel like your texture is ugly, and not because you don't have "good" hair, but because YOU wanted it for yourself. There is a difference. My avatar picture is the day I decided I would no longer get relaxers because the question of "why do I relax my hair?" had never been asked. I didn't know it was even something that could be asked. I did it out of habit and because every other black person I knew did. It had nothing to do with yt people or their hair practices. But when I asked myself this question, I thought deeply about it and changed it. So even this board has influenced how I feel about natural hair! We all have motivations and sometimes you are the exception. Just remember the good ol' 75%.


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## nikolite (Jun 26, 2010)

My response is in blue below.



BronxJazzy said:


> answers to the bolded:
> 
> No, being natural doesnt prove anything to me but; trying to make others feel bad for their preference is insecure. I feel like your trying to say well I'm more proud of myself than you because I'm natural and you're a self hating relaxer.
> 
> ...


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## nikolite (Jun 26, 2010)

Gigi-07 said:


> NO ONE's ignoring that plenty of black women relax out of self-hate. I can't believe I even have to SAY this, on a forum where we all KNOW that we ALL read about this issue constantly.



So then what are you disagreeing with us about?


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## kmn1980 (Jun 26, 2010)

jennboo said:


> "it's only hair" yes, yes...the default response, when all else fails.
> 
> (despite paying money to post on a hair board to get tips on how to treat the hair, *considering  putting anti-perspirant* on your scalp to keep from having your hair revert to its natural state, pandemonium about wearing you natch hair at job interviews, siggies dedicated to hair journeys/progress pics/in depth regimens, etc.)



L.M.B.A.O. Not to mention vaj cream. 

Let me just say that I enjoy the ETHER stylings of JennBoo.

Carry on...


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## jennboo (Jun 26, 2010)

DDTexlaxed said:


> jennboo said:
> 
> 
> > So...this thread has made you sad...but you feel no type of way about the fact that black folks have been made to not feel comfortable in their own natural skin/hair?
> ...


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## RedVelvet310 (Jun 26, 2010)

nikolite said:


> Me too!
> 
> More from whites though.  I usually get the "...it would be so long and pretty if you permed it though..." from blacks afterwards.



I usually get from blacks.. "is that your hair? .... is it natural? .... DON'T PERM IT FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WHATEVER YOU DO TO IT DO-NOT-RELAX-YOUR-HAIR"


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## Bella_Atl (Jun 26, 2010)

Mane_Attraxion said:


>


 
ROTFLAMO!


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## Junebug D (Jun 26, 2010)

Conqueror_aka said:


> you know what i just realized?
> 
> new thread. new day. same discussion.
> 
> ...



And these threads never go anywhere... but to thread heaven.


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## nikolite (Jun 26, 2010)

DDTexlaxed said:


> I know in my case, I find it hard to handle short natural hair because it makes me more masculine looking. My shape and build just does not support the short natural look. HOWEVER, it may not be that way for all. I've been called Sir too many times than I care for.  I would ideally love to have long natural hair, but I prefer strait hair because I know how good it looks on me. I have never had long natural hair.  I still feel that a lot of people enjoy the freedom of choice. Why should we be looked down upon for preferring strait hair?  I don't worry about what others do with their hair or their child's hair. It's not my place to judge them. 400 Years Without a Comb does not apply to everybody.



And I think most of us get that.  But we're simply pointing out that if you were in a different culture and society, let's say, a remote ethnic group in central Africa, no one would mistake you as a man, nor would you feel your body type doesn't compliment your natural hair.  I lived in South Africa for some time, and plenty of black women walked around with mini fros and clean-shaven heads and not one black man mistook them for a man.  Social norms in a predominately-white country that used to enslave and debase your ancestors with naturally kinky hair are what may make someone call you "sir".  No one looks down on you for that, or for wanting to accepted and look pretty by their standards.  But to some extent these are THEIR standards that cause this (WASP's).  From what I can see in your avatar, you're beautiful the way you are and if you want to wear your hair straight, fine.  But know that you don't HAVE to to be beautiful.  You may choose to, but you don't have to.


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## jem_mcmillan (Jun 26, 2010)

When I was younger, I loved straight hair. It was easier to maintain. Then I learned how to properly care for my hair. That changed my view and I have been natural for over 10 years.

I think it also has to do with the time period. I am 40 and when I was growing up hair care consisted of perms and the hot comb. There was no material out about how to care for your hair naturally.


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## I Am So Blessed (Jun 26, 2010)

as I look around IRL and on LHCF not "_MANY" prefer straight hair. there are more naturals then relaxed, and most of the relaxed haeds where w&g's and braidouts. (me included)_


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## kmn1980 (Jun 26, 2010)

arosieworld said:


> Question and I am truly curious..* If this is still the effects of colonization, slavery, etc. is it an endless cycle? *



Basically it's up to each and every Black person to instill pride into the young lives they touch, be it their children, nephews, nieces, etc... Drop the denial. Drop the delusion. Accept the truth and move forward from there. Just like the so-called Jews tell their kids to "never forget" the Holocaust generation after generation, that's what we need to be doing with our children. 

That's when it will end.

That said....it will never end.


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## jada1111 (Jun 26, 2010)

preciouslove0x said:


> Please don't shoot at me. Just curious.
> 
> 
> Have you ever heard a YT woman say that they prefer kinky textured hair? I ask because I was talking to one of my YT best friends earlier today about the subject. She asked me why so many blacks prefer straight hair (we're extremely close so we talk about everything under the sun, in other words I took no offense). Is it because "they are able to achieve it" and if they couldn't, like YT people can't achieve kinky hair, "would they still prefer it?"  What are your thoughts? I never thought about it before and don't have an opinion just yet. I do personally prefer straight hair (so obviously that's not why I went natural). But would we prefer it if we couldn't achieve it?
> ...



I think it's from trying to adapt to what the host country (AMERIKA) considers beautiful and trying to fit in with that form of it.  Also being told by your female relatives how ugly and nappy your hair is for generations on end could be a problem as well.

I'm sorry, but I will never forget how that girl on ANTM was having a fit crying, because the world was gonna see her without her WEAVE!  I was stunned and angry with her simple arse, because FOR ME I always saw weaves as a STYLING OPTION not as MY ONLY OPTION.

This is when I knew how ingrained the hate of afro hair truly was within the culture.  Then add Mary J. Blige's admission when Tyra asked her if there was anything in the world could she have what would it be, Mary said LONG INDIAN WAVY HAIR.  I mean she said this on national TV without a batting an eyelash.

Nothing is wrong with wearing straight hair, weaves or wigs, but when your main reason for doing it is because you hate your god given locks, then that's when it's a problem to ME.  It will take another two generations for this mindset to be completely obliterated (I hope).


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## kizzylonghair (Jun 26, 2010)

I know why I have straight hair.....I WAS NOT RAISED TO HAVE ANYTHING ELSE..
Growing up I would watch the females in my family go through relaxers, weaves, single extension anything to hide their nappies
Luckily my mum was not as bad as others and relax me at 2 years but I had my juice perm at 13, I wanted it but my mother wanted it even more after YEARS of cornrows, that proceeded to me wanting a relaxer, but instead of growing it out it was slapped on top. MY HAIR DIDNT STAND A CHANCE 
Then the long hair obsession started, but how would I know any better The glues tracks started and sew in tracks, killing my hair to ensure it matched the weave.

I WAS NEVER TAUGHT HOW TO LOOK AT MY NATURAL HAIR PROPER, OR MORE IMPORTANTLY TO ACCEPT IT AND WHO I WAS, IT REALLY MAKES ME SAD  

Its nice to see some of there ladies who were around back then sporting some natural styles now, hopefully inspiring other little girls that they have a CHOICE


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## DDTexlaxed (Jun 26, 2010)

AdoraAdora24 said:


> as I look around IRL and on LHCF not "_MANY" prefer straight hair. there are more naturals then relaxed, and most of the relaxed haeds where w&g's and braidouts. (me included)_



Thank you, my friend!lachen:


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## healthyhair2 (Jun 26, 2010)

I don't know that now so many of us really do PREFER straight hair, so much so rather it is easier to deal with. Many Black women can't even remember what their natural texture is like! I'm not downing them for that , it has just been how we operated for so many years. I think this is changing.Personally I am transitioning and can't wait to have a healthy, long, lioness mane of hair!!! Cause ya' know what?? EVERYONE secretly thinks it's SEXAY  ESpecially Me!


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## *CherryPie* (Jun 26, 2010)

I hardly EVER see naturals here, in Chicago.....and this is a big city.



AdoraAdora24 said:


> as I look around IRL and on LHCF not "_MANY" prefer straight hair. there are more naturals then relaxed, and most of the relaxed haeds where w&g's and braidouts. (me included)_


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## healthyhair2 (Jun 26, 2010)

*CherryPie* said:


> I hardly EVER see naturals here, in Chicago.....and this is a big city.



Come to BROOKLYN !!!! My siggy pic needs to be changed , I'm Transitioning.


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## *CherryPie* (Jun 26, 2010)

I'm not natural. I'm relaxed.

But it's gotta be great to see a variety of hair types IRL.



healthyhair2 said:


> Come to BROOKLYN !!!! My siggy pic needs to be changed , I'm Transitioning.


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## CocoGlow (Jun 26, 2010)

Ok from what I've read thus far, the Black women that prefer straight hair over their natural texture stated the following reasons:

**Straight hair is more manageable
*Straight hair looks better w/ my facial features, frames my face
*Straight hair swings in the wind
*Straight hair makes me feel sexy
*Straight hair will give me the length I want
*I don't look good w/ short hair*

I honestly believe that UNAWARENESS and FEAR OF THE UNKNOWN plays a big part in the above responses in addition to societal pressure to have straight hair and of course, hatred of the napp to the point of not even realizing/acknowledging it passed down through generations post-colonization (this has thoroughly & accurately been addressed in this thread, so I don't have much to add to this issue)

*ON PREFERENCE FOR STRAIGHT HAIR FOR MANAGEABILITY: *
Think about it...if every Black woman around you has a relaxer and knows how to manage relaxed hair, then it becomes "normal" and "manageable" and "easy" to you ... if you came from a planet where no one had a relaxer, you would be scurred (lol) & confused about how to "manage" those chemicals properly, manage your new-growth properly, how to style your hair, which products to use, what not to do to prevent breakage, etc... 

Now if you were on a planet surrounded by Black women who rock their natural hair and know how to manage it, then it too would become "normal" and "manageable" and "easy" to you and you would "somehow just know" how to comb it properly, style it, the right products, etc .. everywhere you look in your neighborhood, in Black salons, in ESSENCE mag (lol) there would be a plethora of images of women w/ YOUR texture in fabulous styles and everyone would know how to manage natural hair and not look to a chemical for manageability (btw I feel like we are slowly getting to a point where naturals are discovering regimens that work with our hair and not against it, so this fantasy may become reality soon - maybe not)

*ON PREFERENCE FOR STRAIGHT HAIR FOR LENGTH/SEXINESS/SUITING FACIAL FEATURES ,ETC:*
 If your preference is LONG hair to go with your facial features, why does it have to be relaxed? What about long natural hair? The versatility of styles are endless...you don't have to be stuck wearing an afro or puff....if you want your hair to hang DOWN & face framing, then just manipulate it to do so (twists, braids, twist-out/braid-out, etc, etc ,etc) ... I feel like there is more to it

I feel like those who feel "sexier" or feel they look "better" with straight hair feel that way b/c that's all they know ... you ladies have skillfully mastered gorgeous straight styles and it shows...you are more confident in them b/c you know you look fly and b/c you grew up learning how to master the Doobie-Wrap or the Dominican Blow-Out you may actually look "better" wearing that style ... You may have managed to get the infamous, gorgeous, sleek Aaliyah look down pact, BUT had you taken the same amount of time to master natural styles and grew up learning how to skillfully master these styles, and found ones that suit your round, rectangle, oval, square, triangle, etc face perfectly, you would look just as "sexy" & might feel you look "better" in them or just as good .... 

Of course you are going to feel that you look "better" w/ a successful straight style than an *un*successful natural style or a natural style that does not suit your features! If you love long hair and have a relaxer, you would avoid the short Halle Berry cut just as much as you would avoid the short natural TWA ... 
LONG does not automatically = relaxed, SEXY does not automatically = relaxed .. it's about changing your mindset and opening up yourself to the many possibilities of natural hair .. 

I think a lot of people have limited views of it (ex afro puff) and  think that if they don't look good w/ that particular natural style, then they cannot be beautiful & natural at the same time .. or they have the messed up view that if they don't have 3C texture, then they can't be natural & beautiful at the same time (but that's another issue)


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## CocoGlow (Jun 26, 2010)

healthyhair2 said:


> Come to BROOKLYN !!!! My siggy pic needs to be changed , I'm Transitioning.



YES Brooklyn does have a large natural community and it's great to see all the fros, twists, locs & funky colorful mohawks, creative cornrows, etc ... however relaxers & weaves are still waay more popular amongst Black women in NYC (and the planet) overall ... and I'm in world famous "Black" Harlem


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## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Jun 26, 2010)

Because naps arent the new black yet


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## GeauXavi (Jun 26, 2010)

NappyRina said:


> Ok from what I've read thus far, the Black women that prefer straight hair over their natural texture stated the following reasons:
> 
> **Straight hair is more manageable
> *Straight hair looks better w/ my facial features, frames my face
> ...





Since I assume that you are specifically responding to MY response with the bottom bolded...

A. Please do not assume that you know my stance about relaxed hair and natural hair. As I stated, I have been natural and I am currently transitioning. I big chopped after 2 months of transitioning last time, and only relaxed (after 10 months) because I got extensive heat damage, and did not want to start over.

with that being said...when i was natural...i always wore my hair curly. you can look at my album if you wish. It was my first time pressing when i suffered damage, and i was devastated.

B. I'm transitioning long term so that i will have long NATURAL hair, vs short hair (in any state). In the mean time...while my hair is SHORT, I will be wearing styles that stretch my length and frame MY face. Never did i say that relaxed=sexy...if I felt that way, I wouldnt be transitioning. please re-read my original post if you are mistaken.


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## kmn1980 (Jun 26, 2010)

My final comments (cuz I can no longer take the denial that ironically proves the original assertion of the effects of colonization):

A) Notice how many people in this thread are saying, "well white folks do it too..." It proves the point that even today, we still define our behavior and measure the MEANING and WORTH of who we are and what we do against white folk's standards. 

White people do it, so it MUST be okay. No need for inflection and reflection. No need to examine why someone told you (by word or deed) that something was wrong with what God put on your head when you were 4 or 5 and to this day you are still holding on to that. 

Nope.

White people do it too so it can't be that bad.

See how that works?

It's funny how in the thread on the CNN experiment where the Black kids said that the darkest girl on the drawing was bad, unintelligent, not likable, etc... everyone was ready, willing and able to admit that the psychological effects of slavery are still very real facets of Black life all over the diaspora. But when it comes to this, the $hit magically changes into "personal choice". Skin color given by God. Hair texture given by God. Where is the disconnect?

B) R.O.T.M.F.F.L.M.B.A.O.  at the people who act like natural people waged war on relaxed heads (ie. Natural Nazi). Now, I remember being 8 being laughed at for my "pelo malo" by the relaxed heads. I remember being in 7th grade and the girl with a relaxer, no edges and no nape laughing at me because of my "kitchen". I remember a girl in my class when I taught Kinder crying about two other girls who laughed at her for having "nappy" hair.  I remember a parent, who was mad that I sent her child to the principal's office, calling me a "nappy-headed wench" (in front of her over-processed child). In 29 years and 2 countries of residence, I don't ever recall a natural head initiating a hair-bashing session with a relaxed head. 

C) Do what you do. But when someone asks you to reflect on the meaning and symbolism of your actions, don't pull 50-11 excuses out of your a$$ about how your new growth at 2 weeks post is so unruly that your chosen method is the only way to go.


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## healthyhair2 (Jun 26, 2010)

lizelies said:


> Speaking from my own personal experiences, I think I just didn't know how to style natural hair like I did straight hair so I preferred straight growing up. I also had no idea about haircare natural, relaxed, whatever.
> 
> I'm learning every day now about hair and debunking myths. Like when I spoke with my Chinese friend who explained to me that not all Asians have straight hair. The look on my face was like . Her sister and mom have wavy hair. She then went on to explain to me that she knows a lot of Asian women who faithfully get their Japanese style straightener every six months.



I actually did know not all Asians have straight hair. Also, one of my BFF's is Japanese and a hairdresser. She says that alot of Asians come to her to get perms that look like an Afro.
I live in a predominately Chinese part of Brooklyn and alot of them like a crimped, teased hairstyle or Curly perms.


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## VictoriousBrownFlower (Jun 26, 2010)

nikolite said:


> My response is in blue below.


 
No you never said that you were more proud of being black but you implied it by saying that all relaxed heads are conditioned to want relaxed hair because of social conditioning, slavery, etc....We are in essence doing it because we want to be white. Thats the jist of what you are saying right?

I keep saying it stems from insecurity because whenever someone tries to push their views and beliefs onto someone elses decisions without trying to see the other persons point of view it shows lack of self acceptance in my opinion. When you accept yourself you know that there will be differing views and you accept them because you are secure within yourself and dont need to have everyone agree with or validate you.

In your example you talk about wanting pepsi. Well I wouldnt think about the nutritional value of the pepsi or what commercial I saw that said...drink pepsi. I would think dang I want some pepsi because I like the taste of it. I hate mountain dew and no matter how many commercials I see I will always hate mountain dew because its flavor isnt appetising. The same way pantene commercials didnt make me want to relax my long chin did. Nothing more nothing less.

When I say others go on the far right of trying to be blacker than... I automatically think of the 5% in NY. YOu know the ones that are in manhattan screaming their beliefs to a crowd of people through a loud speaker. They want everyone to be a certain way; think a certain way; live a certain way because thats whats right. I'm not talking about kinky hair I'm talking more about attitude. 

I honestly have no distain for any style choice. See I believe its honestly just a style choice. Theres no deeper meaning behind it. Thats whats so baffling to me. We're sitting here talking about straight hair as if we are trying to please massa when I just dont think its that deep. For those that think its that deep. You need to look within yourself for the answers to why??? Once again its hair its just not that important to most. Slavery was an issue a looooonnnnngggg time ago. For the most part it doesnt effect my day to day life or my decisions about what I do with my hair.

By the way I love natural hair on people that can carry it. I loved my texture it was managable soft and fluffy but it made me look like Jay Leno.


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## dynamic1 (Jun 26, 2010)

BronxJazzy said:


> I keep saying it stems from insecurity because *whenever someone tries to push their views and beliefs onto someone elses decisions without trying to see the other persons point of view it shows lack of self acceptance in my opinion.* *When you accept yourself you know that there will be differing views and you accept them because you are secure within yourself and dont need to have everyone agree with or validate you.*


 
It works both ways.  Your post do not seem accepting of other people's views on the preference for straight hair (ETA: putting words in the mouths of others is not acceptance).  Does this indicate you are insecure about your choice as well?


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## healthyhair2 (Jun 26, 2010)

*CherryPie* said:


> I'm not natural. I'm relaxed.
> 
> But it's gotta be great to see a variety of hair types IRL.



Yep, Thursday I was in  Manhattan and LOVED seeing all the sisters with all types of natral do's! Chicago will change, I know it's still the Midwest. When I go down South to see family , not alot of naturals there either. But the brothas do a double take at the few gorgeous natrals they see


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## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Jun 26, 2010)

kmn1980 said:


> My final comments (cuz I can no longer take the denial that ironically proves the original assertion of the effects of colonization):
> 
> A) Notice how many people in this thread are saying, "well white folks do it too..." It proves the point that even today, we still define our behavior and measure the MEANING and WORTH of who we are and what we do against white folk's standards.
> 
> ...


 
This never ceases to amaze me....


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## MrsHdrLe (Jun 26, 2010)

Personally, I like both straight and curly.  I find that I have to wear my hair up when curly though, b/c it sits on my shoulders and I want to avoid fraying the ends.  I also find that detanlging is a lot more traumaic on wash day b/c all my shed hairs have been trapped by my curls/coils.  When I want to wear it down (to show off my length), I straighten.  It's as simle as that.  I think I've let go of a lot of those old beleifs about my hair in the recent years (you'd know this is true esp. b/c I walk around with all my natural type hair showing all about the edges and through).  I figure a lot of people see me and shake their heads (like why doesn't she comb that hair?), but I like my bumpy, lumpy, big, textured hair more and more as it grows bigger and bigger.

As for the main question of the thread, I think many people feel "dressed up" or more "pulled together" when their hair is straighter. THIS IS JUST MY OPINION ON THE SUBJECT AT HAND.  I do not read into the psychlogical reasons and whys of why people wear their hair one way or the other, not my job or concern.


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## healthyhair2 (Jun 26, 2010)

NappyRina said:


> YES Brooklyn does have a large natural community and it's great to see all the fros, twists, locs & funky colorful mohawks, creative cornrows, etc ... however relaxers & weaves are still waay more popular amongst Black women in NYC (and the planet) overall ... and I'm in world famous "Black" Harlem




Yep, I know what you mean, but ther's enough natral hair to keep me satisfied!!! I keep going back to kinky hair for a reason. I think it can be much more versatile and for me it is healthier this way. I admire the beautiful relaxed heads too, but that will not be me.


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## arosieworld (Jun 26, 2010)

Originally Posted by arosieworld  
Question and I am truly curious.. If this is still the effects of colonization, slavery, etc. is it an endless cycle? If not when will it end? In 2050 will we still say black women who have straight hair are effected by brainwashing? My father would always say he went through this, this and this so we wouldn't have to. So is this a discussion we are having so our children won't have to? Because it just seems like this conversation never really changes.

Originally Posted by dancinstallion
It will continue to be an endless cycle as long as people don't break the chain. It will be everlasting as long as it is still an issue. because hair relaxing is the only thing that has continued for all of these years whether its by chose, versatility, slavery or brainswashing.

I'm not sure if you are missing my point on purpose but I mean when will the excuse of colonization and slavery no longer be relevant? When will the people who claim that is why relaxers relax, no longer be able to use that as the reason and will just have to accept the reason most people who relax have given in this thread.... because they like it.
I don't think there will be a world without black women with straight hair but there will have to be a world where we no longer judge someone elses reasons for the style they choose.  If we keep recycling this discussion with the same explanations we are not changing anything. We have to let that reason go. The only people hurt by these debates are black women, and the only people saying that brainwashing is why women get relaxers are other black women without relaxers. Everyone with a relaxer has basically said they might have not had a choice when they were a CHILD or they were once brainwashed but now they relax because of preference. So if the reason is changing why is that excuse still the same.


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## VictoriousBrownFlower (Jun 26, 2010)

dynamic1 said:


> It works both ways. Your post do not seem accepting of other people's views on the preference for straight hair (ETA: putting words in the mouths of others is not acceptance). Does this indicate you are insecure about your choice as well?


 
how did i put words in anyones mouth? Please give me examples. Are some not saying that it is all through social conditioning etc... that we choose to relax our hair.Then they go on to say there can be relaxed heads that are happy with who they are but they need to know its more than just a style choice its about what we were conditioned to believe... Which to me just negates the first part of the statement. 

I am not insecure in my choices at all. All I am saying is that not everyone relaxes because they have some deep seeded hatred for themselves that they dont know about. I was natural as an adult and I chose to relax....I've seen both sides of the spectrum and I never took it that seriously. I just didnt want to wait til I was bra strap length to have a braid out that sat on my shoulders.


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## levette (Jun 26, 2010)

honestly,

IMO, because we have assimilated into America from slavery and we have been taught that straight hair is beautiful and desirable. Pick up any averyage black women's magazine and 97% of them have relaxed hair or weave.   Plus the majority of black men prefer black women to wear their hair straight. or  (unkinky) . 

but I almost must add that how we wear our hair has become somewhat an accesory of being a woman.  One could argue, why do black women  wear makeup? or wear jewelry?  or why do many white women die their hair blond?  or get breast implants? etc, etc.  

To me it  is also a part of being a woman that we have so many style choices regarding, hair, makeup, etc.  If a womans wants to relax, etc, it is her business! let's kill the guilt trip and worry about more pressing issues such as----Why are there so many broken black familiies who have no father present?


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## LaFemmeNaturelle (Jun 26, 2010)

DDTexlaxed said:


> For me it isn't like that. It's easier for me to maintain. I really think that black women should learn to stop caring so much on how other nationalities view them and do what makes them happy. Why is it only the black woman who has to be ashamed for preferring strait hairstyles just because we have natural curly hair? Other nationalities don't give it a second thought. They just flat iron and keep it moving.


 

That's actually not true. Freshman year, I wrote an essay about my hair. I forgot the purpose of it but I talked about being natural until 17, being currently (at that time) relaxed and how I wasn't happy to be nappy yet. I talked about natural hair on campus and how blacks were treated in general on my campus. After reading, my Korean teacher told me how she flat irons her wavy/curly hair everyday because she wants straight hair. We went into a discussion of how many Koreans flat iron and put paste or whatever she said on their skin to make their skin lighter because they felt that white with straight hair is better. It's not just black women. It's in most minority communities because most have been colonized by whites. And they know exactly why they do it. I think we're the only ones who deny it.


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## nikolite (Jun 26, 2010)

BronxJazzy said:


> No you never said that you were more proud of being black but you implied it by saying that all relaxed heads are conditioned to want relaxed hair because of social conditioning, slavery, etc....We are in essence doing it because we want to be white. Thats the jist of what you are saying right?
> 
> *No, because you think its lovely and beautiful and want to fit in and look like the other beautiful, prized women with "healthy long hair."  Nevermind why you think that (because its a preference) and nevermind that non-black women coincidentally happen to have that look.  Is that incorrect?*
> 
> ...



Responses are above.


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## ButtaSmooth (Jun 26, 2010)

I feel like those who feel "sexier" or feel they look "better" with straight hair feel that way b/c that's all they know ... you ladies have skillfully mastered gorgeous straight styles and it shows...you are more confident in them b/c you know you look fly and b/c you grew up learning how to master the Doobie-Wrap or the Dominican Blow-Out you may actually look "better" wearing that style ... You may have managed to get the infamous, gorgeous, sleek Aaliyah look down pact, BUT had you taken the same amount of time to master natural styles and grew up learning how to skillfully master these styles, and found ones that suit your round, rectangle, oval, square, triangle, etc face perfectly, you would look just as "sexy" & might feel you look "better" in them or just as good .... 

Speaking for me personally....I grew up with natural hair. I did not get a relaxer until highschool when it was *my* choice. I know a lot of women here did not have that choice and were relaxed at a young age. But I am very familiar with my natural hair. Me thinking that I look better with relaxed, straight, flat ironed, or silk wrapped hair has nothing to do with confidence or managability. It has everything to do with my freedom of choice. As of right now I am wearing a phony airfro puff. Why? b/c it looks good. And when I am done streching I will wear my straight relaxed hair. Why? b/c it looks good. It's that simple for me.


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## ConstantlyDynamic (Jun 26, 2010)

BronxJazzy said:


> No you never said that you were more proud of being black but you implied it by saying that all relaxed heads are conditioned to want relaxed hair because of social conditioning, slavery, etc...*.We are in essence doing it because we want to be white.* Thats the jist of what you are saying right?
> 
> I keep saying it stems from insecurity because whenever someone tries to push their views and beliefs onto someone elses decisions without trying to see the other persons point of view it shows lack of self acceptance in my opinion. When you accept yourself you know that there will be differing views and you accept them because you are secure within yourself and dont need to have everyone agree with or validate you.
> 
> ...



nooo that's not what is being said. to me, even thinking that this is what is being implied shows insecurity. i straighten my hair sometimes but i am aware of the fact that the act in general has a certain history. i know that when i was relaxed, i was conditioned to think this was normal and i'm sure most relaxed heads can attest to this. the moment i turned 13 i was like "ok let's get this started" lol i thought it was a part of growing up as a black female and, judging from the fact that women even relax the heads of their 7 year olds, i think it's fairly obvious that kinks are not what's in with the black community. so then you have to think about the reason behind this type of mentality. i mean there is a reason behind everything we do. but straightening your hair doesn't necessarily mean that you want to be white (that's on a person-by-person basis). we are simply discussing the historical reasons behind it and how, as time went on, it became so ingrained in our community that it's seen as "natural" and people don't even realize the origins of it. what's wrong with saying that? no one is saying "don't straighten your hair" and if what people are saying bothers you so much, i would think that the insecurity lies more within you 

i'm also really surprised by the last bolded statement. slavery might have happened years ago (i beg to differ that it was that long ago when looking at world history- America is a fairly young country) but the ideologies that it produced are still alive today. if this really is what you think then you must not believe in prejudice, racism, or any other ways of thinking/social hierarchies that were "produced" during that era. i mean, it's generally accepted in the academic world that it is not easy to erase the type of mental slavery that was imposed on people during that time or to get rid of stereotypes. when we start to forget that then we are moving into dangerous territory


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## LaFemmeNaturelle (Jun 26, 2010)

nm.............................................


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## DDTexlaxed (Jun 26, 2010)

People are just going to force feed their opinion to keep the division going. I just think it is sad that because I choose not to wear my hair natural or I prefer strait styles, it automatically come out to the brainwashed theory.  On a site that should not advocate strait over curly, no less.  I have the utmost respect and love for natural hair and you will never hear me bashing anyone's hair choice.


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## ConstantlyDynamic (Jun 26, 2010)

DDTexlaxed said:


> People are just going to force feed their opinion to keep the division going. I just think it is sad that because I choose not to wear my hair natural or I prefer strait styles, it automatically come out to the brainwashed theory.  On a site that should not advocate strait over curly, no less.  I have the utmost respect and love for natural hair and you will never hear me bashing anyone's hair choice.



the question is- why do you see it as bashing? i wear my hair straight sometimes and was relaxed when i was younger- i've been natural for just two years and had braids for 90% of that time. i still like straight styles and will oggle at gorgeous straight hair if i want to but when i read this post, i don't feel like i'm being bashed at all. i'm confused as to why you see it that way. imo, people seem to have an issue with acknowledging the history of the practice


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## arosieworld (Jun 26, 2010)

It IS bashing when you say black women ADULTS are making a decision based on brainwashing. The women who relax are aware of their history, they are not pawns in some sort of conspiracy. To assume that behind their reasons there is a secret reason they are not stating is belittling. To assume they are not enlightened enough to realize the history of relaxers on the pure basis that they have one is disparaging. To assume that adults are not aware of their choices or that they make those choices without a thought process of their own is degrading.


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## DDTexlaxed (Jun 26, 2010)

bkprincess617 said:


> the question is- why do you see it as bashing? i wear my hair straight sometimes and was relaxed when i was younger- i've been natural for just two years and had braids for 90% of that time. i still like straight styles and will oggle at gorgeous straight hair if i want to but when i read this post, i don't feel like i'm being bashed at all. i'm confused as to why you see it that way. imo, people seem to have an issue with acknowledging the history of the practice



You just don't get it. You basically can't accept that it can be viewed as simply a hair style practice. Some wear strait styles with no hoots about why they did so in the past. When someone says it's not the case for them...you basically just say that it is. That just frustrates people. Some people just view strait hair as an option to wear their hair. Nothing more or less.  Now you paint people who wear hair strait as brain washed, self haters. That is wrong of you to assume. I ogle and ooh at natural hair, too. I love both relaxed and natural hair. It's respectful to allow a person to make their own choice without the superior one is better than the other. Try to see other people's point of view as well.


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## chrisanddonniesmommy (Jun 26, 2010)

> You DO know. Don't let other peoples views make you question a relationship that has been good to/for you. My Bff is white and like you I have known her for years. If someone ever overheard some of our conversations they would think horrible things about both of us. Because she is your friend the walls are down she feels like she can ask you things she would never ask anyone else because you love her and won't judge. I am sure you've used that to your benefit as well and asked some crazy things, I know I have. Not all white people are looking for validation of their whiteness and only you know if she is.



Unless she has telepathy, which I'm safely assuming she doesn't, she doesn't know. I'm sure you've heard countless stories from people expressing surprise that their BFF was a serial killer or rapist. It's healthy to question or else all of us are fools. I have friends of many shades, colors, and sexual dispositions. However, I do not approach them as though they are representative of an entire membership nor do I "let them slide" because they are my friends.


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## dynamic1 (Jun 26, 2010)

BronxJazzy said:


> how did i put words in anyones mouth? Please give me examples. .



Here are some quotes where you assigned another meaning to what was actually said.

"It seems like *its more about proving your blackness *than anything else. I dont have to bc and wear a fro to say I'm proud to be black."

"The *naturals that wanna bash relaxed heads *and the relaxed heads that wanna bash naturals."

"No, being natural doesnt prove anything to me but; *trying to make others feel bad for their preference *is insecure." 

"*I feel like your trying to say well I'm more proud of myself *than you because I'm natural and *you're a self hating relaxer*."

__________________________________________________________

Where did the posters discussing the history behind black women and straight hair bash anyone.  None of these posters said..

"you are more black if you are natural"

"you should feel bad for wearing straight hair"

"I am more proud of myself than those that wear relaxers"

You are projecting your interpretation of the discussion rather than accepting what is actually written.  Now, please show me the quotes where people attempted to "make people feel bad", "bashed black women with straight hair" or called somone a "self-hating relaxer". 

By the way, some of the people discussing the history, social norms, etc. wear straight hair too.


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## arosieworld (Jun 26, 2010)

chrisanddonniesmommy said:


> Unless she has telepathy, which I'm safely assuming she doesn't, she doesn't know. I'm sure you've heard countless stories from people expressing surprise that their BFF was a serial killer or rapist. It's healthy to question or else all of us are fools. I have friends of many shades, colors, and sexual dispositions. However, I do not approach them as though they are representative of an entire membership nor do I "let them slide" because they are my friends.



I am sorry but the OP states she and this girl are close and have been friends for years. Someone who tries to "validate their whiteness" doesn't pull that move out of the blue, for the first time ever, years after being a friend. You may not approach your friends with strange questions but I know I do. As I said my best friend is white and she has asked me crazy things and I have asked her crazy things. I have asked her to represent all white people to me before and all New yorkers and all people born in her generation, with the stupidest questions I would never ask anyone else. For every single one she has let me slide and always will, as I would do for her because we are best friends. This is not some random seasonal friend this is a best friend for the OP. I have a white foster sister, same thing applies. I know her, I know her values and I know her character. I am sorry, I think its healthier to see the people important in your life as inherently good.


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## *CherryPie* (Jun 26, 2010)

DD, They ain't trying to understand you. They don't want to accept the truth. They like feeling superior (even though it's in their own minds). That's why this thread hasn't changed at all. 

They like the seperation of the forum. They have that "jiggaboo vs. Wannabe" mentality. It's not gonna change because they are enjoying this, and your frustration means NOTHING to them.

Yeah, I said all that.



DDTexlaxed said:


> You just don't get it. You basically can't accept that it can be viewed as simply a hair style practice. Some wear strait styles with no hoots about why they did so in the past. When someone says it's not the case for them...you basically just say that it is. That just frustrates people. Some people just view strait hair as an option to wear their hair. Nothing more or less. Now you paint people who wear hair strait as brain washed, self haters. That is wrong of you to assume. I ogle and ooh at natural hair, too. I love both relaxed and natural hair. It's respectful to allow a person to make their own choice without the superior one is better than the other. Try to see other people's point of view as well.


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## gcchick_07 (Jun 26, 2010)

when over half of a culture of people permanently alters a feature natural to them as a race specifically...i don't understand why that is not cause for concern

if over half of asians were getting that eyelid surgery, i would be concerned

if over half of white women (does anyone know the stats?) were bleaching their hair blonde, i would be concerned

it just so happens that i am a black woman who notices that WELL OVER HALF of other black women permanently straighten their hair. did they all just come to the same conclusion? are we all the same person? do we have some telepathic link that makes us all think straight hair is better than what happens to grow out of the scalp?

y'all got to be kidding me, trying to ignore facts.

we are not talking about INDIVIDUAL preferences. but how is it that MOST black women's individual preference is the same when it comes to permanently altering a feature that is predominant in black people?

come on son.


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## VictoriousBrownFlower (Jun 26, 2010)

jennboo said:


> So...this thread has made you sad...but you feel no type of way about the fact that black folks have been made to not feel comfortable in their own natural skin/hair?
> 
> Well, in that case... that thread about anti perspirant on scalp has made me sad, about folks not getting jobs because ignant white AND black folks have something against our look make me sad, folks scared to grow their hair out of their own heads make me sad, 5 year old little girls with permed and picked out hair bc their mommas wanted to throw a chemical up in their heads make me sad... etc etc etc.
> 
> .


 


nikolite said:


> Black people who have completely different hair not preferring their own hair EN MASSE is weird IMO.
> 
> I don't see curly/wavy haired white, Latino, Indian, Middle Eastern, etc. women wearing relaxers to make sure that their hair is bone straight at all times. They could wear relaxers and never have to flat iron but they don't. (they'd have to have it in for maybe 30 seconds but still). They flat-iron sometimes, not all the time. They don't run from water when it rains or sprint inside the house after swimming. They may wear it as a style occasionally or for a few months (as I and many other naturals do) but they typically do not alter their hair for decades at a time like many black women do.
> 
> ).


 


jennboo said:


> Bolded: Exactly. I have so much respect for women who are able to essentially say "Well, i wear my hair straight, I'm non-apologetic about it, I'm going to continue to wear it straight...but i'm not delusional, I KNOW where the preference stems from". So much respect. To me, relaxed heads with that mentality are truly comfortable with their decision, and i cannot knock that...at all.


 


dancinstallion said:


> It will continue to be an endless cycle as long as people don't break the chain. It will be everlasting as long as it is still an issue. because hair relaxing is the only thing that has continued for all of these years whether its by chose, versatility, slavery or brainswashing.
> 
> 
> Some black people in america feel it is taboo not to relax. You can no longer oppress black people in any other way, But when you mention hair then we get sensitive. We have a complex about hair. (I know I do).


 


lushcoils said:


> Wonders if the question was, "Why do so many blacks find their natural hair unattractive?" ...would people still say things like, "...It has nothing to do with slavery, colonization, social conditioning, the media, etc... It's not about history people..it's just hair..." ?


 


nikolite said:


> Do you think a woman who hides under a hat when she needs a touch-up is "proud" of her hair? So can a person who has bleached their skin, relaxed their hair, wearing blue eye contacts, and has gotten surgery on their nose to look long and thin also be proud to be black?
> 
> I think you actually can be proud to be black and relaxed, but not acknowledging why you are doing it doesn't look like pride to me. It looks like shame.


 


bkprincess617 said:


> i don't have a problem with people straightening their hair and i occasionally straighten mine but i refuse to be ignorant about the history of black women using relaxers or about how colonization affects us even today. if you believe that the history of colonization has no effect then you must not believe in prejudice seeing that prejudice is a product of that very history. or when a black person lightens himself/herself because they think light skin is prettier, it must just be a preference right? they just like it lol (btw lightening your skin does not make you less black than anyone else-it just means that you were conditioned to feel that light skin is better and you discovered a means to achieve that look-imo it's just less socially acceptable than using relaxers)


 


nikolite said:


> My response is in blue below.


 


jennboo said:


> DDTexlaxed said:
> 
> 
> > If folks were truly comfortable with their decision to relax, they wouldnt put forth half-behind arguments to defend their decision, nor would they become irate or belligerent at the notion that maybe their choice stems from a volatile and ugly place. They would remove themselves emotionally for a bit and attempt to think about it logically.
> ...


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## kmn1980 (Jun 26, 2010)

^^^ WOW...if you got:



> "you are more black if you are natural"
> 
> "you should feel bad for wearing straight hair"
> 
> "I am more proud of myself than those that wear relaxers"



From what I posted, you are Stretch Armstrong.


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## I Am So Blessed (Jun 26, 2010)

_dang, aint yall tired of posting in here yet? All these long responses. My fingers just hurt lol. Look yall, Im not taking this too deep, all i know is, I love my texlaxed hair. I loved my natural hair. and I loved my red and bleached blonde hair. I just love my hair period, so go love your hair and stop fussing, geeze..... making  mountains out of a molehills. im oouttt!!! peace!_


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## dancinstallion (Jun 26, 2010)

CheLala13 said:


> You can honestly say there isn't a deeper meaning attached to hair?
> So when a black child is born and the family looks at that soft, wavy hair with sad eyes wishing it would stay that way? And when that child is 5 and the mother complains about not being able to deal with "that nappy shi*" or when that child gets a relaxer by the age of 7? Because this isn't just one child, this is a lot of black children. Let's go ahead and pretend that if blacks were the only race with naturally straight hair and everyone else had curly, straight hair would be preferred? I DON'T have anything against straight hair, because that is your choice. But when that choice is being forced upon others, you have to realize that there is a deeper meaning. Just as there is a deeper meaning when you don't let your *Alek colored daughter play in the sun too long, but it's okay for her Rihanna colored cousin.*
> 
> ETA: Honestly, I don't believe most black people want to be white. But those who have influenced us the most WERE affected by whites. Other disclaimers: If you are relaxed, you are not less than black. All I want is for people to look deep down inside of themseleves and understand where their motivations come from. So even if the question isn't "why do I prefer straight hair" maybe it should be *"why do I strongly NOT prefer the hair that grows out of my head*?"


 
 Preach because I totally agree.    
I don't prefer the hair growing out of my scalp because it is kinky and tangled. I prefer 3a or 2c hair type. I do love how think my hair is but I hate the kinks/knots. I will admit it. 
  When my darker skinned DS plays in the sun I find myself saying "oh your are going to get so black/dark. I don't say it to her but those are my thoughts. I don't let my thoughts become my words because that can be damaging. I know I have a color complex that I don't act on. I am brown skinned and my DH is a dark skinned African. I prefer Brown skinned not high yellow and not midnight black. I wan't attracted to those types of men but I know it had something to do with my color complex that made me not attracted to some men.


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## arosieworld (Jun 26, 2010)

gcchick_07 said:


> when over half of a culture of people permanently alters a feature natural to them as a race specifically...i don't understand why that is not cause for concern
> 
> if over half of asians were getting that eyelid surgery, i would be concerned
> 
> ...



Over half of all women black or white with gray hair dye it.  A feature predominant to old people. Where is the concern? There isn't any because its a simple choice someone makes for their personal style. No one is ignoring history, but history only started us on the path to relax for those that continue to walk that path it is now choice.


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## ConstantlyDynamic (Jun 26, 2010)

arosieworld said:


> It IS bashing when you say black women ADULTS are making a decision based on brainwashing. The women who relax are aware of their history, they are not pawns in some sort of conspiracy. To assume that behind their reasons there is a secret reason they are not stating is belittling. To assume they are not enlightened enough to realize the history of relaxers on the pure basis that they have one is disparaging. To assume that adults are not aware of their choices or that they make those choices without a thought process of their own is degrading.



people in general make decisions based on ideologies that are passed down. black women aren't the only ones but right now we are discussing this in particular. this isn't a unique case in society (someone already brought up breast augmentation and eyelid surgery. even the way that we dress our babies -boys with blue, girls with pink- is influenced by social ways of thinking- why should this case be any different?). i'm not sure why it bothers some people so much. being an adult does not make you exempt from being a product of your society. we are ALL products of our society in some ways and our choices reflect that. not sure how that turned into a "omg so you think i hate myself" thread


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## Ladybelle (Jun 26, 2010)

I think women of every race alter their looks for vanities sake. Most anglo-saxon women dye their hair. 

women with curly hair, want straight hair
women with straight hair want curly hair
women with brunette hair want blonde hair
women with short hair want long hair
women with gray hair want no grays
pale folks want to have darker skin
darker skin folks want lighter skin
short people wanna be taller
flat arsed people want booties
big booty folk want smaller booties 
 the list goes on & on.

 what I'm trying to understand is why black women are deemed to have an identity problem/low self-esteem when we choose to also alter our looks (straight hair)

when does the line end with a black woman from just doing what women tend to do vs hating herself?

show me a woman (of any race) who is & has always been 100% natural in her looks (no makeup, no chemical alteration to her hair, no straightening, no treatments of any kind) and I will show you the EXCEPTION to the rule.


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## arosieworld (Jun 26, 2010)

bkprincess617 said:


> people in general make decisions based on ideologies that are passed down. black women aren't the only ones but right now we are discussing this in particular. this isn't a unique case in society (someone already brought up breast augmentation and eyelid surgery. even the way that we dress our babies -boys with blue, girls with pink- is influenced by social ways of thinking- why should this case be any different?). i'm not sure why it bothers some people so much. being an adult does not make you exempt from being a product of your society. we are ALL products of our society in some ways and our choices reflect that. not sure how that turned into a "omg so you think i hate myself" thread



We are all products of society and every bit of of history effects our choices. I am stating that this is no longer the effects of brainwashing. The women who relax today are not brainwashed they are making a choice of their own volition while fully aware of the history of relaxers. I don't even wear my hair straight so I kind of don't have a dog in this fight. I just feel that we constantly create a division between ourselves for no reason. If a adult relaxes why must it still be programming and not just a style choice? Personally I feel we have reached a point where it should be.


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## EccentricRed (Jun 26, 2010)

asuperwoman said:


> women with curly hair, want straight hair
> women with straight hair want curly hair
> women with brunette hair want blonde hair
> women with short hair want long hair
> ...


 
ANNNNNNNNDDDDDDD scene!  This answers millions of questions.


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## dynamic1 (Jun 26, 2010)

asuperwoman said:


> I think women of every race alter their looks for vanities sake. Most anglo-saxon women dye their hair.
> 
> women with curly hair, want straight hair
> women with straight hair want curly hair
> ...


 
I think you missed one..

Women with naturally straight hair wanting tightly coiled hair.
(ETA: minus the handful of asians)


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## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Jun 26, 2010)

I wonder, if asked, would over 1/2 of the silky haired black folx want nappy hair since, you know, people always want what they don't have


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## tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT (Jun 26, 2010)

i saw clips.... did not see the entire movie


but did you ladies see Chris Rock's movie on Hair?....when he asks the Korean salesman where is all the kinky or afro textured weave?* Did he respond something to the nature of noone wants to buy that...or we can't sell that?*


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## orchidgirl (Jun 26, 2010)

I grew up in an all WT town and  always wore my hair natural, I had my WT friend trying to achieve my look with perms etc. i think sometime people are attracted to what they don't have. That my personal thought only...


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## LoveisYou (Jun 26, 2010)

We've been socialized to believe that straight flowing hair is more beautiful and sexy.  We've also been socialized to believe lighter/whiter is better,that's why certain Euro features are so revered in the black community - lighter skin, straight/wavy hair, light eyes- those traits that we find beautiful have been influenced by slavery and colonialism.


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## LoveisYou (Jun 26, 2010)

Also many women wear their hair straight, because they think that's what men prefer. The majority of straight women want to feel they look desirable to the opposite sex so that definitely place apart in the hairstyle women choose.  Yes, your girlfriends might think you look fierce with your twa, but the guys might prefer longer relaxed hair, and that can influence some women's hair choices a lot.


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## chrisanddonniesmommy (Jun 26, 2010)

arosieworld said:


> I am sorry but the OP states she and this girl are close and have been friends for years. Someone who tries to "validate their whiteness" doesn't pull that move out of the blue, for the first time ever, years after being a friend. You may not approach your friends with strange questions but I know I do. As I said my best friend is white and she has asked me crazy things and I have asked her crazy things. I have asked her to represent all white people to me before and all New yorkers and all people born in her generation, with the stupidest questions I would never ask anyone else. For every single one she has let me slide and always will, as I would do for her because we are best friends. This is not some random seasonal friend this is a best friend for the OP. I have a white foster sister, same thing applies. I know her, I know her values and I know her character. I am sorry, I think its healthier to see the people important in your life as inherently good.



I reiterate my stance that no matter how close you are to someone, you can't always know what's going on in someone's head, especially in a place of privilege. No matter how much you stress that your best friend and foster sister are white, they benefit from privilege that either one can pull out (if she doesn't pull it out when you're not around) when desired. It is naive to believe that both of them do not benefit from such privilege. I hope, for your sake, that her values continue when she's not around you. 

Call me a realist (that's okay). But, we are all born with human nature. We are taught morals, beliefs, and ideals; thus, we're not inherently good (which means we are born that way). I think it's healthier to see social reality to avoid being burned later. 

I am happy for you in your friendship, though. Hopefully, she never shows a side that you are surprised by later on. Btw, did you realize that each time, you stressed that your bff was white, you sounded like those who say "my best friend's black" or "my gf/bf's black"? I'm not attacking you. I'm just pointing out a funny coincidence.


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## Sugar (Jun 26, 2010)

gcchick_07 said:


> when over half of a culture of people permanently alters a feature natural to them as a race specifically...i don't understand why that is not cause for concern
> 
> if over half of white women (does anyone know the stats?) were bleaching their hair blonde, i would be concerned



Please come to Los Angeles and witness for yourself the amount of bleach blond white women.


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## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Jun 26, 2010)

Sugar said:


> Please come to Los Angeles and witness for yourself the amount of bleach blond white women.


 
I thought about that as well 

But all kidding aside, even if every single dark haired white woman in our nation decided to go blond it STILL would not have the same ramifications as african american women chosing to relax their hair.  To me the two are no where near the same level.


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## Sugar (Jun 26, 2010)

asuperwoman said:


> I think women of every race alter their looks for vanities sake. Most anglo-saxon women dye their hair.
> 
> women with curly hair, want straight hair
> women with straight hair want curly hair
> ...



At 5'2" my modeling career has been seriously hampered...LOL

I purposefully gained weight so I could have a big butt (wide hips with a flat butt is not a good look...IMO)

I'm just not a huge fan of curly hair (on me).  Hell I even hate poodles...because of all that friggin curly hair.

I like my hair straight or wavy (hence the texlaxing so I can wear it either way).  I've always had a pie full face and I like using my hair to elongate my face a little.  I like how my hair blows in the wind and how I can feel it hanging down my back now.

Plus, I'm probably the laziest person in the world when it comes to styling my hair (and I really, really suck at it and have better ways to spend my time than think of cute hairstyles) so texlaxing is the best option for me.

I wonder why no one ever asks white and other non-black women why they alter their hair so much?  And believe me...they do.  Why are we always the targets?


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## Sugar (Jun 26, 2010)

Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> I thought about that as well
> 
> But all kidding aside, even if every single dark haired woman in our nation decided to go blond it STILL would not have the same ramifications as african american women chosing to relax their hair.  To me the two are no where near the same level.



But why aren't they on the same level?  Why are we seen as being brainwashed and self-hating when we relax or prefer straight hair?  Why can't we be like other women who are just seen as exercising their right to choose...choose how they want to wear their hair, that is?  

For me, my hair is like an accessory (or even a toy sometimes...lol).  I style it based on how I'm feeling that day, what I'm wearing, and where I'm going...and how chubby my face is looking that day...LOL.  I put no more thought into it than that.  Well except that I take healthy haircare more seriously than I used to because I'm trying to grow it out to a certain length.

The average Black woman (with a relaxer or otherwise straightened hair) probably feels the same way I do.

Off Topic:  Maybe another good question would be "Why do so many Black women prefer long hair over short hair?"


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## CurlTalk (Jun 26, 2010)

CheLala13 said:


> You can honestly say there isn't a deeper meaning attached to hair?
> 
> So when a black child is born and the family looks at that soft, wavy hair with sad eyes wishing it would stay that way? And when that child is 5 and the mother complains about not being able to deal with "that nappy shi*" or when that child gets a relaxer by the age of 7? Because this isn't just one child, this is a lot of black children. Let's go ahead and pretend that if blacks were the only race with naturally straight hair and everyone else had curly, straight hair would be preferred? I DON'T have anything against straight hair, because that is your choice. But when that choice is being forced upon others, you have to realize that there is a deeper meaning. Just as there is a deeper meaning when you don't let your Alek colored daughter play in the sun too long, but it's okay for her Rihanna colored cousin.
> 
> ETA: Honestly, I don't believe most black people want to be white. But those who have influenced us the most WERE affected by whites. Other disclaimers: If you are relaxed, you are not less than black. All I want is for people to look deep down inside of themseleves and understand where their motivations come from. So even if the question isn't "why do I prefer straight hair" maybe it should be "why do I strongly NOT prefer the hair that grows out of my head?"


Yes yes yes! I couldn't have put it better. ITA with every single thing you wrote.


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## CurlTalk (Jun 26, 2010)

Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> I thought about that as well
> 
> But all kidding aside, even if every single dark haired white woman in our nation decided to go blond it STILL would not have the same ramifications as african american women chosing to relax their hair.  *To me the two are no where near the same level.*



I totally agree with this, and I never understand when they're put in the same boat. A ton of white people were blonde when they were children (up until the age of 8/9 even for some of them); blonde for them is seen as youthful, stemming from their youth, and something that does come naturally to them. 

Straight hair, however, does not, will not, and has never come naturally for the vast majority of the black community. For most of us, relaxing is a form of imitation, not regaining something we lost. We never had straight hair. 

Dying the hair blonde is more or less like covering grays; relaxing the hair is actually permanently altering the texture of one's hair, not to regain a childhood texture, but to gain a texture one never had, regardless of reason.


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## arosieworld (Jun 26, 2010)

chrisanddonniesmommy said:


> I reiterate my stance that no matter how close you are to someone, you can't always know what's going on in someone's head, especially in a place of privilege. No matter how much you stress that your best friend and foster sister are white, they benefit from privilege that either one can pull out (if she doesn't pull it out when you're not around) when desired. It is naive to believe that both of them do not benefit from such privilege. I hope, for your sake, that her values continue when she's not around you.
> 
> Call me a realist (that's okay). But, we are all born with human nature. We are taught morals, beliefs, and ideals; thus, we're not inherently good (which means we are born that way). I think it's healthier to see social reality to avoid being burned later.
> 
> I am happy for you in your friendship, though. Hopefully, she never shows a side that you are surprised by later on. Btw, did you realize that each time, you stressed that your bff was white, you sounded like those who say "my best friend's black" or "my gf/bf's black"? I'm not attacking you. I'm just pointing out a funny coincidence.



We all have certain privileges some have education, money, looks, connections, whatever. But to read into someones words who you say is a friend is to me unhealthy. Whatever your reality may be, I know that despite what people are taught they have an internal compass. People who are taught the right thing do the wrong thing and vice versa. I think its healthier to take the people you love at face value and not waste your energy worrying if their words having some secret dark meaning. The only reason I mentioned the race of my friend, the 2 times I did, was to bring a parallel to the OP situation and myself. I was trying to be compassionate and put myself into her shoes the best way I knew how, and reassure that all white people who ask stupid questions are not necessarily trying to "validate their whiteness" when people were putting agendas on her friend words. I am sorry that was lost on you.


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## LittleLuxe (Jun 26, 2010)

Sugar said:


> For me, my hair is like an accessory (or even a toy sometimes...lol).  I style it based on how I'm feeling that day, what I'm wearing, and where I'm going...and how chubby my face is looking that day...LOL.  I put no more thought into it than that.  Well except that I take healthy haircare more seriously than I used to because I'm trying to grow it out to a certain length"



Exactly. I was raised by two proud intelligent African parents and raised in Africa before I moved to this country. My Father taught me from an early age that my 'blackness' had nothing to do with my skin tone, my hair, the way my body looked in comparison to others or my speech. 

What defined me as a black person was the knowledge that existed within me. The fact I was aware of my history and could look at it with a critical eye. What I had learned from my ancestors and what I did with that learned lesson. It was about spirit. It was about family. It was about past and future. 

Hair is incidental. I never gave two craps about it. Natural, braided, weaved up, relaxed. My hair choices were always supported by those around me and ironically I never saw any issues about hair till I came to this country. Even more ironically most of those issues were black women judging other black women. And to be honest it never stops for one reason or another. 

My hair is an accessory, if I ever have to pass down any visual message to a young black child in rampant danger of being brainwashed it would be to spend less time worrying about whether you're betraying or ignoring your past by relaxing your hair and more about what you're doing for yourself and your people by learning, succeeding, struggling, persevering, and eventually accomplishing. 

Hair, both relaxed and natural requires care, maintenance, dedication and attention. From what I've seen on this board it requires about the same amount of time and dedication. Many women choose to go from one to the other, back and forth, I respect their decisions. I don't choose to say anything about their motivations or incentives until THEY volunteer the information.


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## Sugar (Jun 26, 2010)

CurlTalk said:


> I totally agree with this, and I never understand when they're put in the same boat. A ton of white people were blonde when they were children (up until the age of 8/9 even for some of them); blonde for them is seen as youthful, stemming from their youth, and something that does come naturally to them.
> 
> Straight hair, however, does not, will not, and has never come naturally for the vast majority of the black community. For most of us, relaxing is a form of imitation, not regaining something we lost. We never had straight hair.
> 
> Dying the hair blonde is more or less like covering grays; relaxing the hair is actually permanently altering the texture of one's hair, not to regain a childhood texture, but to gain a texture one never had, regardless of reason.



That's not the only reason white women go blond.  Its probably not even the MAIN reason.  Blond hair (and blue eyes) is seen as the epitome of beauty and sexiness to white folks.  The All American Ideal (whether straight, wavy, or curly).  

When a white woman wants to do something daring and bold...or when she simply gets tired of being a mousey brown plain Jane...she goes blond.  

Let's not forget back in the day when curly perms were all the rage for them. Now my white and other non-black friends are frying their hair with blow dryers and flat irons (some of them do it daily).  I saw a movie called The Women recently.  When Meg Ryan's character wanted to be taken seriously she straightened her uber-curly locks...stick straight. 

In real life I see more fried, frizzy blond haired white women than I can shake a Black man with an NFL contract at.

What it all boils down to for me is....part of the fun part of being a girl or woman is changing my look...playing with my hair...changing my wardrobe...all the girly stuff.  I never get why some folks have to make it more serious than that.


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## sweetlaughter (Jun 26, 2010)

LoveisYou said:


> Also many women wear their hair straight, because they think that's what men prefer. The majority of straight women want to feel they look desirable to the opposite sex so that definitely place apart in the hairstyle women choose.  Yes, your girlfriends might think you look fierce with your twa, but the guys might prefer longer relaxed hair, and that can influence some women's hair choices a lot.





Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> I thought about that as well
> 
> But all kidding aside, even if every single dark haired white woman in our nation decided to go blond it STILL would not have the same ramifications as african american women chosing to relax their hair.  To me the two are no where near the same level.



I saw a special on attraction on TLC or DISC a few months back and they were talking about hair color and length and sexual attraction. One theory for the dying of hair lighter is that a lot of yt children have light hair when born and then it grows in darker. So light hair would = youth and fertility at first glance to men. Same as long hair, perky boobs, and higher voice = youth and fertility. 

I think we are a product of our society but it's not as black and white as colonization and slavery being the main reasons a large number of black women relax.


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## LoveisYou (Jun 26, 2010)

I don't understand how anyone can compare white women coloring their hair with blacks preference for straight hair.  I by no means believe that all black women who relax their hair are self-hating.  A black women can choose to wear her hair however she sees fit. Nevertheless, when a majority of the ppl in a group _rejects_ a feature they were born with, there's a problem.  

A closer observation will demonstrate that the problem lies in the historical indoctrination of black as undesirable.  Everything about black was attacked - the character of blacks, the cultures, and the physical characteristics.  When you think about the beauty totem pole nappy hair, broad nose, dark skin etc. stands on the opposite end of straight hair, thin nose, light skin. Nappy hair has been and continues to be deemed undesirable.  While white women might color their hair for superficial reasons many African-American relax because they believe their  natural hair is undesirable - that's a difference.


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## Sugar (Jun 26, 2010)

LoveisYou said:


> *I don't understand how anyone can compare white women coloring their hair with blacks preference for straight hair.*  I by know means believe that all black women who relax their hair are self-hating.  A black women can choose to wear her hair however she plkease. Nevertheless, when a majority of the ppl in a group _rejects_ a feature they were born with, there's a problem.
> 
> A closer observation will demonstrate that the problem lies in the historical indoctrination of black as undesirable.  Everything about black was attacked - the character of blacks, the cultures, and the physical characteristics.  When you think about the beauty totem pole nappy hair, broad nose, dark skin etc. stands on the opposite end of straight hair, thin nose, light skin. Nappy hair has been and continues to be deemed undesirable.  While white women might color their hair for superficial reasons many African-American relax because they believe their hair is undesirable - that's a difference.



Because its the same thing....a personal choice women make to alter their appearance.  

I have a friend who is white and prematurely gray (and I mean PURE SNOWY WHITE), she dyes her hair chocolate brown faithfully...every 3 weeks.  Should she just except what's growing out of her scalp and live with the fact that she is prematurely gray?  Should she accept the fact that the gray hair makes her look decades older than she really is?  

As I said earlier, I'm not a huge fan of curly hair on me.  Should I be forced to walk around with a head full of curly hair because that's what grows out of my scalp?  Should I be forced to accept some other Black person's idea of what my hair should look like?  Or can I exercise the free-will God gave me and straighten my hair?


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## dancinstallion (Jun 26, 2010)

Conqueror_aka said:


> well...
> 
> BUT i feel *sexy with straight hair*, because i know that the shape/style of my hair is complementing my face.
> edited to add: i'm attaching photos so you can see my point excuse the stink face on the last pic


 
I think you look better with long hair, not necessarily straight hair. I think you would look great with long textured hair or long straight hair. 



dynamic1 said:


> Have you been to naturallycurly.com? Other cultures have the same conversation about hair.
> There have been many topics on the subject in the media. Asian people do have these discussions but why would we be discussing them here?
> 
> *Chinese on blast about their "preference". *http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20100625/wl_mcclatchy/3548235_1[/QUOTE]
> ...


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## BlackMasterPiece (Jun 26, 2010)

Black women on a whole prefer straight hair because most Black women are still very much psychologically colonized.

We are inundated with images of straight haired women being the feminine ideal from infancy in this country and it has a tremendous impact when you were born with afro textured hair. These women in the media are mostly white  and the few Blacks are relaxed or weaved up. It is *not* just a coincidence that over 75% of Black women drastically and permanently alter their hair to be type 1-3. There are millions of black women that will spend every dime of their paycheck regularly for some weave and go on and on bragging about the fact that they are now in ownership of some Asian/Indian hair and gush over the innate beauty and superiority of this hair....its all over youtube....and it just goes to show you the premium we put of hair types that are the exact opposite of ours.

There are millions of Black women that have never known a healthy relationship with their hair because their mothers were so busy treating it like it was type 1 and destroying it and calling it bad that they default to the relaxers. This is a tradition of self-hate that goes back generations. Cultural norms do not materialize out of thin air.

In my experience, I think I can safely say that most Black women have a conscious or sub-conscious inferiority complex about their hair....you can see it with the testimonials of most of the newbies and some of their harrowing tales of having relaxers slapped on their heads from as early as 2 years of age.

*Why White Women's Hair Practices Cannot be Compared to Us Relaxing​*
Finally, I see many women are making the argument that we are no different then other races of women in terms of hair. Let me lay out why that is false:

- When a white woman gets hair extensions, she gets extensions that MATCH her own natural texture. She sees her own texture as beautiful and she knows her hair has the potential to grow long, she's just impatient and wants the look now.

- When a Black woman gets a weave, she gets a texture that is the complete antithesis of her natural texture, she extolls that as beautiful, and see's it as superior. She is usually unaware that her hair can grow as long as the weave.

- When a white woman Bleaches her hair Blonde....she is emulating fellow white women that they deem to be beautiful.

- When a Black Woman Relaxes her hair to be type 1 she is trying to emulate the dominant race...weather she realizes that on a conscious level or not.

- When a Black woman puts on her weave she is boasting about the myriad of other races she feels she looks like now and saying she now has pretty hair like them. 

- When a White woman get her hair extensions she is boasting about the new length and added thickness.

- If a Black person see's a white person with long hair, its to be expected. If a Black woman has long hair....well she must have "good hair" and be mixed with some "good hair" having race.

None of this is a coincidence. The preference for white skin, straight hair and light eyes did not just materialize from thin air.


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## CurlTalk (Jun 26, 2010)

Sugar said:


> That's not the only reason white women go blond.  Its probably not even the MAIN reason.  Blond hair (and blue eyes) *is seen as the epitome of beauty and sexiness to white folks.*  The All American Ideal (whether straight, wavy, or curly).



Biologically, what we view as 'sexy' and 'beautiful' directly correlates to health and youth; more specifically, fertility. Blonde hair suggests a younger woman, and thereby a woman with a greater chance of being fertile, just as shiny hair and bright skin do. So in essence, going blonde to be sexy IS going blonde to look youthful. 

In a similar fashion, women of all races strive for big, wide eyes (eyeliner), prepubescent skin (all facial cleansers, moisturizers, etc.), and shiny hair (pretty much all hair products). 

The problem with straightening hair to be 'sexy' and 'beautiful', and not simply as a way to change up style, is that, unlike the blonde that white women do have in youth, most black women (and women with naturally curly hair of any race come to think of it) don't have straight hair in their youth. Biologically, straight hair in and of itself does not suggest health, or fertility; society holds that straight hair is more beautiful and appealing. When society damages young girls' images of themselves by presenting straight hair as inherently superior to their own, it does no one any good (except maybe relaxer companies).


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## LoveisYou (Jun 26, 2010)

Sugar said:


> Because its the same thing....a personal choice women make to alter their appearance.
> 
> I have a friend who is white and prematurely gray, she dyes her hair chocolate brown faithfully...every 3 weeks. Should she just except what's growing out of her scalp and live with the fact that she is prematurely gray? Should she accept the fact that the gray hair makes her look decades older than she really is?
> 
> As I said earlier, I'm not a huge fan of curly hair on me. Should I be forced to walk around with a head full of curly hair because that's what grows out of my scalp? Should I be forced to accept some other Black person's idea of what my hair should look like? Or can I exercise the free-will God gave me and straighten my hair?


 
Um, it's not the same thing.  I am speaking about the implications of slavery and colonialism, you are speaking about a woman going through aging.  I'm not sure I get the connection.

As to your last paragraph my post and my signature addresses those questions


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## ~Sparklingflame~ (Jun 26, 2010)

Ya'll.Go.HARD!!!


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## Sugar (Jun 26, 2010)

LoveisYou said:


> Um, it's not the same thing.  I am speaking about the implications of slavry and colonialism, you are speaking about a woman going through aging.  I'm not sure I get the connection.
> 
> As to your last paragraph my post and my signature addresses those questions



Yeah it is the same thing...depending on how you choose to view it.  If you choose to believe that how one chooses to style their hair is based on slavery and colonialism...well that's you, but that doesn't make it true for all Black women.  From my perspective, hair is just not that serious.

Speaking for myself....slavery and colonialism have nothing to do with how I choose to wear my hair.  Sheer laziness...lack of styling ability...yes.  Colonialism...no, not even a little bit.


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## Ladybelle (Jun 26, 2010)

dynamic1 said:


> I think you missed one..
> 
> Women with naturally straight hair wanting tightly coiled hair.
> (ETA: minus the handful of asians)


 
when I wore my hair natural, I had plenty of non-black chicks come up to me to comment on my hair AND tell me that they "wished their hair could do that."  Truth of the matter is, most people of other descents hair are too oily to do what we do to our hair in it's natural state. I spend 8 hours giving this one caucasion girl braids (she wanted them so bad) only for her to take them down one week later. She HAD to take them down because they can't go that long without washing their hair.



> Sugar said:
> 
> 
> > At 5'2" my modeling career has been seriously hampered...LOL
> ...


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## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Jun 26, 2010)

Sugar said:


> But why aren't they on the same level? Why are we seen as being brainwashed and self-hating when we relax or prefer straight hair? Why can't we be like other women who are just seen as exercising their right to choose...choose how they want to wear their hair, that is?
> 
> For me, my hair is like an accessory (or even a toy sometimes...lol). I style it based on how I'm feeling that day, what I'm wearing, and where I'm going...and how chubby my face is looking that day...LOL. I put no more thought into it than that. Well except that I take healthy haircare more seriously than I used to because I'm trying to grow it out to a certain length.
> 
> ...


 
Because the plight of a white woman and her hair is very different than a black woman and hers.  Especially a nappy haired black woman.  Why are folx acting brand new over this issue (not you Sugar)?  What is the history of the white woman and the color of her hair?  How about the history of an aa woman?  Which woman was scorned, mocked, beaten, burned, and brutalized due to her physical attributes? 
For the record, i don't think that every woman of color that relaxes her hair has issues of self hate.  But more often than not a lot of aa women are disgusted by their naps.


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## nappystorm (Jun 26, 2010)

On  lighter note I straightened mine tonight because I didn't feel like fooling with two strand twists.


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## Sugar (Jun 26, 2010)

CurlTalk said:


> Biologically, what we view as 'sexy' and 'beautiful' directly correlates to health and youth; more specifically, fertility. Blonde hair suggests a younger woman, and thereby a woman with a greater chance of being fertile, just as shiny hair and bright skin do. So in essence, going blonde to be sexy IS going blonde to look youthful.
> 
> In a similar fashion, women of all races strive for big, wide eyes (eyeliner), prepubescent skin (all facial cleansers, moisturizers, etc.), and shiny hair (pretty much all hair products).
> 
> The problem with straightening hair to be 'sexy' and 'beautiful', and not simply as a way to change up style, is that, unlike the blonde that white women do have in youth, most black women (and women with naturally curly hair of any race come to think of it) don't have straight hair in their youth. Biologically, straight hair in and of itself does not suggest health, or fertility; society holds that straight hair is more beautiful and appealing. When society damages young girls' images of themselves by presenting straight hair as inherently superior to their own, it does no one any good (except maybe relaxer companies).



Not all white folks are born with blond hair, so its not always about going back to what they had when they were young.  All hair colors have a stereotype (often more than 1).  

Blond hair = All American beautiful and sexy  
Red hair = Fiery, passionate, sexy
Dark hair = Bad girl sexy

I also think that hair length plays a major role as well because long hair is seen as youth also. Curly hair is also seen as more youthful, whimsical, and even unruly, than straight hair.

If society is damaging Black girls with images of straight hair then its damaging white girls, latina girls, asian girls, etc.  I go to the white beauty industry trade shows...most of those straightening products and tools aren't aimed at us.  But still its seen as normal for "others" to straighten their hair...but for us its like a cardinal sin (based on some of the things I read on hairboards).


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## LoveisYou (Jun 26, 2010)

Sugar said:


> Yeah it is the same thing...depending on how you choose to view it. If you choose to believe that how one chooses to style their hair is based on slavery and colonialism...well that's you, but that doesn't make it true for all Black women. From my perspective, hair is just not that serious.
> 
> Speaking for myself....slavery and colonialism have nothing to do with how I choose to wear my hair. Sheer laziness...lack of styling ability...yes. Colonialism...no, not even a little bit.


 
I don't argue in extremes, I don't see extremities in other people's arguments when there are none. Anyone who is reasonable and have any sort of experience with life will know that nothing is completely black and white or conclusive.  Never once did I say that how every black woman ppl choose to style their hair is based on slavery and colonialism.  The OP asked about the majority of blacks preferring straight hair, and I addressed the OP's question.  In addition, I addressed the ways that slavery and colonialism resulted in the rejection of black features including nappy/kinky hair.  

You are free to defend your personal choices, but I'm not attacking anyone in my posts, I'm simply speaking about history and the demonstratable impacts of slavery/colonialism.


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## chrisanddonniesmommy (Jun 26, 2010)

arosieworld said:


> We all have certain privileges some have education, money, looks, connections, whatever. But to read into someones words who you say is a friend is to me unhealthy. Whatever your reality may be, I know that despite what people are taught they have an internal compass. People who are taught the right thing do the wrong thing and vice versa. I think its healthier to take the people you love at face value and not waste your energy worrying if their words having some secret dark meaning. The only reason I mentioned the race of my friend, the 2 times I did, was to bring a parallel to the OP situation and myself. I was trying to be compassionate and put myself into her shoes the best way I knew how, and reassure that all white people who ask stupid questions are not necessarily trying to "validate their whiteness" when people were putting agendas on her friend words. I am sorry that was lost on you.



Obviously, we all have some form of privilege; however, in this country, one's racial privilege has been the most far-reaching across other cultures and races. You can deny it; but, it's true (I've heard the "we all have privileges" debate technique when pointing out racial privilege). 

Your message wasn't lost on me. To be curious is natural; however, some curiousness can lead to "othering" (e.g. exoticizing another group, pinpointing one's differences as abnormal). 

Out of curiosity, why the concern for "putting agendas" on the words/feelings of white women when they "other" you or the OP instead of the concern with how she or the OP's friend's covert views on you and other black women? Mind you, the OP's friend didn't ask her personally about her straight hair? She asked her about *ALL BLACK WOMEN* as though we're some monolithic group with one mind (which is a constant). She doesn't see black women as individuals, which is a problem. The OP (and you) are expected to speak for the entire group. I know you want to be in her shoes (which, sad to say, won't happen, even with good intentions, until society changes) and I get it the intention. Now, it appears that the OP came to the forum because something didn't seem right about the question and she respectfully wanted various views. I think you are giving her friend unwarranted benefit of the doubt, especially as other forum members discussed how this has happened to them or how the subject permeates society continuously.

Let me reiterate I don't want you to feel attacked; but, in my eyes, I'm seeing the perpetrators of this heinous system get off with the aforementioned unwarranted benefit of the doubt (e.g. innocent questions when there's such things as Google and LHCF to answer some of them). Therefore, the system continues because no one calls them on it. As said before, any relationship does not alleviate such perpetual issues.

By the way, I'm a relaxed hair, who has thought about going natural, or perhaps, texlaxing. I flip-flop, depending on my mood. But, yeah, I want to see what my real texture is again.


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## BlackMasterPiece (Jun 27, 2010)

Its uncomfortable to do, but sometimes we have to sit down, be still, and ask ourselves why it is that we do what we do. 

WHY is straight hair preferred over 75% of the time by Black Women to the hair that grows out of our heads?

*75-80%* of the time? To the point that Black mothers relax small children?

Do people honestly think this is just a preference that they spontaneously, organically and independently arrived at?

Like, seriously???


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## Sugar (Jun 27, 2010)

Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> Because the plight of a white woman and her hair is very different than a black woman and hers.  Especially a nappy haired black woman.  Why are folx acting brand new over this issue (not you Sugar)?  What is the history of the white woman and the color of her hair?  How about the history of an aa woman?  Which woman was scorned, mocked, beaten, burned, and brutalized due to her physical attributes?
> For the record, i don't think that every woman of color that relaxes her hair has issues of self hate.  But more often than not a lot of aa women are disgusted by their naps.



Well there was the taboo for years about white women coloring their hair.  The whole ad campaign "Does she or doesn't she?" was created for a reason.  The only person that was supposed to know if you colored your hair was your stylist.  I watch alot of I Love Lucy and there is a running gag about Lucy dyeing her hair red and not being a natural redhead.

Then there was the day I was at work and a short haired, pretty, perky blond threatened in front of the whole office to rip out another white chick's hair if she got extensions (she didn't want the other girl to have longer hair than her).  I just stood there doing this   Gotta love L.A. 

White girls are mocked and scorned for their physical attributes on the daily...along with every other girl.  Just spend the day at a high school and you'll see it.  Or go to a night club....watch a movie or tv show.  Or here's a better one...sit around and listen to a bunch of white dudes talk...that ish will have you disgusted and mad.


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## LoveisYou (Jun 27, 2010)

Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> Because the plight of a white woman and her hair is very different than a black woman and hers. Especially a nappy haired black woman. Why are folx acting brand new over this issue (not you Sugar)? What is the history of the white woman and the color of her hair? How about the history of an aa woman? Which woman was scorned, mocked, beaten, burned, and brutalized due to her physical attributes?
> For the record, i don't think that every woman of color that relaxes her hair has issues of self hate. But more often than not a lot of aa women are disgusted by their naps.


 

Especially given that these implications are deeper than hair.


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## Sugar (Jun 27, 2010)

LoveisYou said:


> I don't argue in extremes, I don't see extremities in other people's arguments when there are none. Anyone who is reasonable and have any sort of experience with life will know that nothing is completely black and white or conclusive.  Never once did I say that how every black woman ppl choose to style their hair is based on slavery and colonialism.  The OP asked about the majority of blacks preferring straight hair, and I addressed the OP's question.  In addition, I addressed the ways that slavery and colonialism resulted in the rejection of black features including nappy/kinky hair.
> 
> You are free to defend your personal choices, but I'm not attacking anyone in my posts, I'm simply speaking about history and the demonstratable impacts of slavery/colonialism.



That's the great thing about human beings...we grow and change.  Perhaps those things had an impact on why much of previous generations straightened their hair, but it probably isn't the same for Today's Black Woman (ugh that sounded like a commercial for tampons or something).

Can someone point me to the place where there is concrete evidence or statistics about what the majority of Black women do with their hair?  I've seen numbers on buying habits...but I'm looking for something that specifies how we choose to wear our hair.  Because I have never been asked to participate in any such study.

If it doesn't exist can someone please conduct said study?  Or how about somebody bother to ask the majority of Black women why they choose to wear their hair the way they do?


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## arosieworld (Jun 27, 2010)

chrisanddonniesmommy said:


> Obviously, we all have some form of privilege; however, in this country, one's racial privilege has been the most far-reaching across other cultures and races. You can deny it; but, it's true (I've heard the "we all have privileges" debate technique when pointing out racial privilege).
> 
> Your message wasn't lost on me. To be curious is natural; however, some curiousness can lead to "othering" (e.g. exoticizing another group, pinpointing one's differences as abnormal).
> 
> ...



  I sorry but to me that is just sad. I can't constantly be on the ready to call people out. I will give people the benefit of the doubt. I do understand naivety. I do understand how conversations among friends can bridge cultures. I do understand how the opinion of a person you trust can shape your view of, yes, an entire race. (thats how racism spreads but it can also be how understanding spreads). I refuse to see this world as a "system" that is out to get me.


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## Sugar (Jun 27, 2010)

asuperwoman said:


> > *I wonder why no one ever asks white and other non-black women why they alter their hair so much? And believe me...they do. Why are we always the targets?[/*QUOTE]
> >
> > *sorry to hear about your modeling career being hampered for cosmetic reasons,*
> >
> ...


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## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Jun 27, 2010)

Why do so many blacks prefer straight hair?

The same reason why so many prefer a certain texture over another.  It's evident here and the real world.

Honestly we can go round round on this issue for ever.  It's been brought up millions of times here.  I don't think there is just one answer for this question.


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## LoveisYou (Jun 27, 2010)

It's sad but this thread is an example of of the historical ignorace that is so prevalent in our culture.  How is it possible to live in this country and not know the historical basis of beauty standards?  How is it possible not to recognize the ways in which history have impacted today?  How can you not recognize that the reasons so many black women bleach their skin and straighten their hair has a lot to do with the historical onslaught on our physical makeup?  How can we not recognize the preference for light skin, "pretty hair" and light eyes as connected with slavery and colonialsim?
Is it just an accident that so many negative connotations are attached to natural hair?

I do see a small light of hope though.  More women are embracing their natural hair, more naturals are being featured in commericials etc.  Hopefully, our liitle black girls are taking notice and that it will have a positive effect on their self-esteem. I for one want little black girls to realize that beauty comes in all forms. For once, I want to see a study where little black girls won't overwhemingly show  a preference for white dolls.  I want them to be influenced by a media that shows them beauty in all forms.


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## chrisanddonniesmommy (Jun 27, 2010)

arosieworld said:


> I sorry but to me that is just sad. I can't constantly be on the ready to call people out. I will give people the benefit of the doubt. I do understand naivety. I do understand how conversations among friends can bridge cultures. I do understand how the opinion of a person you trust can shape your view of, yes, an entire race. (thats how racism spreads but it can also be how understanding spreads). I refuse to see this world as a "system" that is out to get me.



We'll have to agree to disagree. I acknowledge our society as one that has placed black women on the low end of the totem pole. I don't deny or ignore it, that's all, and there's nothing sad about being an activist against that acknowledgement. In my thirty-something years, I've seen that benefit of the doubt go one-sided to the detrimental of others. 

Good luck to you in the bridging of cultures. I hope that you're prepared that, perhaps, you will do most of the bridging for a while.


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## Theresamonet (Jun 27, 2010)

This conversation made me think about ALL of the threads started and maintained by women so proud of themselves for going natural...because white people/white men love our natural texture...

I don't remember witnessing a relaxed head openly use white peoples preference for what they think black people should look like, as confirmation for their own choice of hair texture. But I have seen countless naturals do it.

Will somebody analyze that?


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## jennboo (Jun 27, 2010)

LoveisYou said:


> It's sad but this thread is an example of of the historical ignorace that is so prevalent in our culture. *How is it possible to live in this country and not know the historical basis of beauty standards? How is it possible not to recognize the ways in which history have impacted today? How can you not recognize that the reasons so many black women bleach their skin and straighten their hair has a lot to do with the historical onslaught on our physical makeup? How can we not recognize the preference for light skin, "pretty hair" and light eyes as connected with slavery and colonialsim?*
> *Is it just an accident that so many negative connotations are attached to natural hair?*
> 
> I do see a small light of hope though. More women are embracing their natural hair, more naturals are being featured in commericials etc. Hopefully, our liitle black girls are taking notice and that it will have a positive effect on their self-esteem. I for one want little black girls to realize that beauty comes in all forms. For once, I want to see a study where little black girls won't overwhemingly show a preference for white dolls. I want them to be influenced by a media that shows them beauty in all forms.


 
Bolded:
You know what? I refuse to believe that some of these women are that dense. I refuse. I think people know exactly where the motivations lie and what the implications of chemicalizing their hair are. Many just don't want to hear or acknowledge it because they'd still like to indulge in the practice guilt-free for their menz, their jobs, to fit in, to look 'fly' , and whatever else.


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## chrisanddonniesmommy (Jun 27, 2010)

Theresamonet said:


> This conversation made me think about ALL of the threads started and maintained by women so proud of themselves for going natural...because white people/white men love our natural texture...
> 
> I don't remember witnessing a relaxed head openly use white peoples preference for what they think black people should look like, as confirmation for their own choice of hair texture. But I have seen countless naturals do it.
> 
> Will somebody analyze that?



Why would that have to when one's trying to fit the norm? I've found that most of that "love" is lip-service anyway.


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## BlackMasterPiece (Jun 27, 2010)

jennboo said:
			
		

> You know what? I refuse to believe that some of these women are that dense. I refuse. I think people know exactly where the motivations lie and what the implications of chemicalizing their hair are. Many just don't want to hear or acknowledge it because they'd still like to indulge in the practice guilt-free for their menz, their jobs, to fit in, to look 'fly' , and whatever else.


Actually, you'd be surprised how many women have never taken a single Africana course or read books/articles on the history of African's in Antiquity or the trans-atlantic slave trade. I think thats why its so easy for some to honestly believe that the preference for european traits is somehow organic.


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## LovelyNaps26 (Jun 27, 2010)

Solitude said:


> Girl, don't you know? Black people read books, major in English and Philosophy, go to law school and medical school, become vegetarians and vegans, convert to Catholicism, play tennis and golf, summer in the Hamptons, travel abroad, play classical musical instruments, run marathons, and drive hybrids, use organic products, shop at Whole Foods, adopt babies from Africa, wear Ed Hardy, go to Ivy League Schools, recycle, eat sushi, sip wine, go camping, _and _straighten our hair to be WHITE.
> 
> *sarcasm*



Everything in the list *EXCEPT *hair texture is a product of nurture (social factors and practices external to an individual that results from socialization) and not nature. Just sayin'


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## tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT (Jun 27, 2010)

if you ladies can tirelessly continue with this passion......
i certainly should be able to get my old arse up and write this paper

(drawing motivation wherever i can)


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## Theresamonet (Jun 27, 2010)

LovelyNaps26 said:


> Everything in the list *EXCEPT *hair texture is a product of nurture (social factors and practices external to an individual that results from socialization) and not nature. Just sayin'




But wouldn't _*CHANGING*_ your hair texture fall under nurture. Nature would be to remain natural. Just Saying.


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## chrisanddonniesmommy (Jun 27, 2010)

Theresamonet said:


> But wouldn't _*CHANGING*_ your hair texture fall under nurture. Nature would be to remain natural. Just Saying.



Yeah, it is. I'm a product of nurture, which is funny considering that my mother, aunt, and cousins are all naturals now.


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## dynamic1 (Jun 27, 2010)

Theresamonet said:


> This conversation made me think about ALL of the threads started and maintained by women so proud of themselves for going natural...because white people/white men love our natural texture...
> 
> I don't remember witnessing a relaxed head openly use white peoples preference for what they think black people should look like as confirmation for their own choice of hair texture. But I have seen countless naturals do it.
> 
> Will somebody analyze that?


 
Umm, there is no analysis necessary.  That question has been answered in this thread- colonialism, racism, acceptance from the dominant culture, etc.  

Although, I have never seen anyone state, "I am so proud of going natural because white people/white men love our natural texture."  

People really want to turn this into a natural vs. relaxed thread.  Why not start another thread for your question?  This one asked "why do so many blacks prefer their hair straight?"


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## drappedup (Jun 27, 2010)

I don't get why it's an issue.......so WHAT if someone prefers their hair to be a certain texture? Or color? I don't get it. It's none of my business. I have bigger, more troubling worries. The world has bigger, more troubling worries than why a group of people happens to prefer a hair texture a certain way.......


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## LaFemmeNaturelle (Jun 27, 2010)

arosieworld said:


> Over half of all women black or white with gray hair dye it. A feature predominant to old people. Where is the concern? There isn't any because its a simple choice someone makes for their personal style. No one is ignoring history, but history only started us on the path to relax for those that continue to walk that path it is now choice.


 

I know my opinion probably doesn't matter but I actually am very concerned with how the media portrays women and how we think there's something wrong with gray hair. Why do women feel the need to dye their hair just to be beautiful? What is wrong with aging?....yeah this is OT but I just hate those commercials that talk about dyeing grays and being beautiful again. Aint nothin wrong with gray!

Carry on.....


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## Theresamonet (Jun 27, 2010)

dynamic1 said:


> Umm, there is no analysis necessary.  That question has been answered in this thread- colonialism, racism, acceptance from the dominant culture, etc.
> 
> Although, I never seen anyone state, "I am so proud of going natural because white people/white men love our natural texture."
> 
> People really want to turn this into a natural vs. relaxed thread.  Why not start another thread for your question?  This one asked "why do so many blacks prefer their hair straight?"




Umm, the reason I asked that question in _this_ thread is because I wanted to bring light to the fact that relaxed heads are not the only ones affected by "colonialism, racism, acceptance from the dominant culture, etc." I believe that is very relevant to _this_ thread. If you couldn't connect the two or see what I was getting at then...

This was a natural vs. relaxed thread from the moment the first character was typed into the Op...check the disclaimer.


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## Sounique (Jun 27, 2010)

This thread can go on and on without end, because there is no right or wrong answer. It's all a matter of opinion. 

How can you argue with someone else's belief?

How can you determine that your "point of view" is superior to another?

There have been so many opposing posts in this thread that I can stand on the sideline and agree with each if I look through the writer's eyes. Although my own perception is different from my stance. 

Perhaps some of our ancestors did choose to relax their hair to appease the "white man" and on the same note, it's possible that they could have passed this same type of inferior thinking down through the generations. I absolutely agree that a portion of our black population are brainwashed by history in one way or the other. 

Now let us flip that coin...

Not every black person that relaxes their hair does it because they don't like their hair texture or are a victim of the slave mentality. There's nothing wrong with wanting to wear your hair straight. It's simply a style choice. Some naturals straighten their hair on occasion. Are they brainwashed too? Some white people wear curly perms and dreadlocks. Are they trying to be black?

Some white people tan. Do they hate themselves and want to be black? 


What is the big issue with the relaxer?  People get breast implants, wear weaves, fake nails, fake eyelashes, dye their hair, fake noses, fake butts, lip injections, eyebrow lifts, chin and cheek implants, colored contact lenses and so on, but if a black woman relaxes her hair then it's self hate. 

It's only hair. People of every race alter their natural appearance in 1 form or another. It's only an outward adornment and by no means reflects the inner person or speaks for their entire race.  

Take Albert Einstein for example...
Based on outwardly appearance alone, how intelligent did he appear? 

Relaxed hair does not = inferiority 
(but then again, that's my opinion)


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## dynamic1 (Jun 27, 2010)

Theresamonet said:


> Umm, the reason I asked that question in _this_ thread is because I wanted to *bring light to the fact that relaxed heads are not the only ones affected by "colonialism, racism, acceptance from the dominant culture, etc."* I believe that is very relevant to _this_ thread. If you couldn't connect the two or see what I was getting at then...
> 
> This was a natural vs. relaxed thread from the moment the first character was typed into the Op...check the disclaimer.


 
Isn't that a given... the entire black community was impacted...which created the preference for straight hair.  erplexed

Great, we agree on the bold!


----------



## nappystorm (Jun 27, 2010)

Well you got cockle burrs standing all over your head
Well you got sandy spurs, I'd rather have mine instead
You're just a Jiggaboo tryna find something to do
Well you're just a Wannabe, wannbe better than me.

Your hair ain't no longer than *snap*
So you'll never fling it all back
Your ashamed to walk in the rain,
Oh what a shame who's to blame?
Don't you ever worry bout that
Cause I don't mind being black...

Talking about good and bad hair
Whether you're dark or you're fair...


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## CocoGlow (Jun 27, 2010)

Conqueror_aka said:


> [/B]
> Since I assume that you are specifically responding to MY response with the bottom bolded...
> 
> A. Please do not assume that you know my stance about relaxed hair and natural hair. As I stated, I have been natural and I am currently transitioning. I big chopped after 2 months of transitioning last time, and only relaxed (after 10 months) because I got extensive heat damage, and did not want to start over.
> ...



Oh my post was not directed at any ONE response ... so while I was referring to your post about preferring LONG hair to go with your face shape, I was also responding to many other posts about wanting SEXY hair and equating sexy w/ relaxed hair ... 

Just wanted to add:

*What if the original post was about a White girl asking her friend about a trend she noticed w/ Black girls wearing blue/green/grey/hazel contacts?

Would we still say these Black women just have a preference for light eyes & it has NOTHING to do w/ something waay deeper? 

Would we justify it by saying that XYZ% of White people also wear colored contacts that are not their natural color? 

Would we not see a HUGE problem if over 75% of Black women started wearing light contacts? 

Would we say "it's ok, they just love the look-it's their choice"? 

What if it became such an epidemic that these Black women would not want to be seen without their contacts....would not think they could get a job....would not think they could get a man....would not think they were beautiful at all without their "pretty light eyes"?*

The only difference is the typical brown eye color of Black women is not associated w/ years of ridicule like the Kinks & Napps that grow out of our head, so while the colored contacts thing has been a trend, it has not turned into an epidemic like relaxing. Although I take issue with Black women walking around w/ blue/green/grey/hazel contacts and would certainly be alarmed if a large percentage were doing it, contacts are very temporary, unlike the relaxer.... 

I personally don't see anything wrong w/ wearing straight styles, but like was mentioned by others, the Black woman's relationship w/ the relaxers & straight/wavy/silky curly "Indian Remi--Goooooood hair!!!" weaves IS an epidemic rooted in something waaay deeper than style choice. 

Maybe when NATURAL hair becomes viewed by most Black women as desirable and they don't feel IMPELLED to "fix those napps" on themselves and their little girls, then maybe, just maybe straight hair will really be viewed as just another style choice - and not a prerequisite for Black beauty 

BTW, I honestly don't think that the majority of relaxed women on LHCF are slapping relaxers on their daughter's heads and spewing out hateful things about their hair texture, but we have to realize that the women on LHCF are only a very small fragment...so while YOU & YOU & YOU may not feel like you are brainwashed or harbor any self-hate, can you really ignore the mentality behind what is going on in your communities? THAT is where the problem lies so this is not a personal attack on anyone...rather an analysis of a BIGGER problem...


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## kmn1980 (Jun 27, 2010)

dynamic1 said:


> I think you missed one..
> 
> Women with naturally straight hair wanting tightly coiled hair.
> (ETA: minus the handful of asians)





Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> I wonder, if asked, would over 1/2 of the silky haired black folx want nappy hair since, you know, people always want what they don't have





LoveisYou said:


> I don't understand how anyone can compare white women coloring their hair with blacks preference for straight hair.  I by no means believe that all black women who relax their hair are self-hating.  A black women can choose to wear her hair however she sees fit.* Nevertheless, when a majority of the ppl in a group rejects a feature they were born with, there's a problem.  *
> 
> A closer observation will demonstrate that the problem lies in the historical indoctrination of black as undesirable.  Everything about black was attacked - the character of blacks, the cultures, and the physical characteristics.  When you think about the beauty totem pole nappy hair, broad nose, dark skin etc. stands on the opposite end of straight hair, thin nose, light skin. Nappy hair has been and continues to be deemed undesirable.  While white women might color their hair for superficial reasons many African-American relax because they believe their  natural hair is undesirable - that's a difference.





BlackMasterPiece said:


> Black women on a whole prefer straight hair because most Black women are still very much psychologically colonized.
> 
> We are inundated with images of straight haired women being the feminine ideal from infancy in this country and it has a tremendous impact when you were born with afro textured hair. These women in the media are mostly white  and the few Blacks are relaxed or weaved up. It is *not* just a coincidence that over 75% of Black women drastically and permanently alter their hair to be type 1-3. There are millions of black women that will spend every dime of their paycheck regularly for some weave and go on and on bragging about the fact that they are now in ownership of some Asian/Indian hair and gush over the innate beauty and superiority of this hair....its all over youtube....and it just goes to show you the premium we put of hair types that are the exact opposite of ours.
> 
> ...





Je Ne Sais Quoi said:


> Because the plight of a white woman and her hair is very different than a black woman and hers.  Especially a nappy haired black woman.  Why are folx acting brand new over this issue (not you Sugar)?  What is the history of the white woman and the color of her hair?  How about the history of an aa woman?  Which woman was scorned, mocked, beaten, burned, and brutalized due to her physical attributes?
> For the record, i don't think that every woman of color that relaxes her hair has issues of self hate.  But more often than not a lot of aa women are disgusted by their naps.





chrisanddonniesmommy said:


> Obviously, we all have some form of privilege; however, in this country, one's racial privilege has been the most far-reaching across other cultures and races. You can deny it; but, it's true (I've heard the "we all have privileges" debate technique when pointing out racial privilege).
> 
> Your message wasn't lost on me. To be curious is natural; however, some curiousness can lead to "othering" (e.g. exoticizing another group, pinpointing one's differences as abnormal).
> 
> ...





BlackMasterPiece said:


> Its uncomfortable to do, but sometimes we have to sit down, be still, and ask ourselves why it is that we do what we do.
> 
> WHY is straight hair preferred over 75% of the time by Black Women to the hair that grows out of our heads?
> 
> ...





LoveisYou said:


> *It's sad but this thread is an example of of the historical ignorace that is so prevalent in our culture.  How is it possible to live in this country and not know the historical basis of beauty standards?  How is it possible not to recognize the ways in which history have impacted today?  How can you not recognize that the reasons so many black women bleach their skin and straighten their hair has a lot to do with the historical onslaught on our physical makeup?  How can we not recognize the preference for light skin, "pretty hair" and light eyes as connected with slavery and colonialsim? Is it just an accident that so many negative connotations are attached to natural hair?*





chrisanddonniesmommy said:


> *I've seen that benefit of the doubt go one-sided to the detrimental of others. *
> 
> *Good luck to you in the bridging of cultures. I hope that you're prepared that, perhaps, you will do most of the bridging for a while.*





jennboo said:


> Bolded:
> You know what? *I refuse to believe that some of these women are that dense. I refuse.* I think people know exactly where the motivations lie and what the implications of chemicalizing their hair are. Many just don't want to hear or acknowledge it because they'd still like to indulge in the practice guilt-free for their menz, their jobs, to fit in, to look 'fly' , and whatever else.










*There are some beautiful logic bombs going off in here.*


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## Kash (Jun 27, 2010)

BlackMasterPiece said:


> Black women on a whole prefer straight hair because most Black women are still very much psychologically colonized.
> 
> We are inundated with images of straight haired women being the feminine ideal from infancy in this country and it has a tremendous impact when you were born with afro textured hair. These women in the media are mostly white and the few Blacks are relaxed or weaved up. It is *not* just a coincidence that over 75% of Black women drastically and permanently alter their hair to be type 1-3. There are millions of black women that will spend every dime of their paycheck regularly for some weave and go on and on bragging about the fact that they are now in ownership of some Asian/Indian hair and gush over the innate beauty and superiority of this hair....its all over youtube....and it just goes to show you the premium we put of hair types that are the exact opposite of ours.
> 
> ...


 
girl you are doing nothing but preaching the TRUTH up in here!


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## JuiceMobsta (Jun 27, 2010)

BlackMasterPiece said:


> Its uncomfortable to do, but sometimes we have to sit down, be still, and ask ourselves why it is that we do what we do.
> 
> WHY is straight hair preferred over 75% of the time by Black Women to the hair that grows out of our heads?
> 
> ...



 Or better yet, if relaxers or pressing combs(flat irons) never came about in the past out of people trying to conform to society, would it still just be a "styling option" for you today?? No, because it probably wouldnt even exist.  Where our practices originate from do make a difference, because if not for these practices in the past, they would not be that prevalent in society as it is today. You wouldnt see all these relaxers on shelves depicting black women on the cover with their "straight" hair. These so called "styling options" are still fueled in part today by the same thing that originally brought them about.

People may like to think of it as just a simple styling option, but when the vast majority of bw have straight hair and given our history, it becomes far more than just a simple styling option. It is a direct result of the past/present attempts to conform with society.

Its just like on tv shows/movies, if someone were to go back in time and change one small thing and then come back to the present, it would be a world of difference. If we went back in time and uninvented(lol) the relaxer or pressing comb, would we still be on here having this conversation?:scratchch


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## LeNghtyDreAms (Jun 27, 2010)

chrisanddonniesmommy said:


> Still be careful. White privilege isn't alleviated through friendship or other relationships. It will be pulled out when necessary and beneficial to the person, regardless of his or her friends, spouses/lovers, etc.
> 
> Next thing you know other "innocent" questions will arise, like "*Why do black people want light skin?" or "Why are black people so loud?" *Remember, you can always say that you aren't the spokeswoman for black people.



@ the bold, what's wrong with these questions, shoot I ask them myself.I ask why Asian people are so rude, bump into and don't say excuse me. 

 And at OP: Since the creation of the flat iron and the relaxer, black women have busted their butts to have straight hair. Years and years of black women straightening their hair it became what was expected.After generations of relaxers and many BW weren't taught how to care for their natural texture therefore it became easier to take care of straightened hair. Its more visually pleasing because its whats was normal and in most cases today is still normal.I prefered straight hair until I found LHCF because before that all I knew was straight hair. I hadnt met any black females with natural hair unless they were mixed and had 2a to 3b hair. When I first went natural my mom thought i was crazy and didn't like the look. Now she no longer gets a relaxer and wears her hair natural or a weave. 
 Point is, if you see everyone else around you with the same style clothes, you'll eventually like that style yourself. Just saying.

   Curly or straight, light or dark, loud or quiet, ghetto or proper, we will always be different, and it is our difference that makes us special. As long as we're who we are, people will be curious, whether it is their curiosity steming from jealousy or admiration; who cares!? Rock your curls or your relaxer cause we can do that!


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## ThePerfectScore (Jun 27, 2010)

since i posted it in RT i thought I'd post it here

In regards to the straight hair thread... the issue is not liking straight hair, but rather why one likes straight hair. Whether we like it or not the effects of colonialism and the white ideal is embedded in our culture and many cultures around the world. The thing about privilege is that it's invisible--- it's been said time and time again, but is so true. Privilege is being the norm and the standard against which all others are judged. Just so happens there's tons of white privilege in the world. Will that stop me from buying a new flat iron? No- it won't... but I also don't want to be ignorant to the factors that lead me to this view of beauty. Yes I love my kinky curly afro, but I also can't wait to be MBL so I can straighten my hair and have it slinging and swinging all around- why is this beautiful to me.... b/c of history and my natural inclination to view things society approves of as beautiful.


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## ThePerfectScore (Jun 27, 2010)

* I Never read this book just fyi, but the title says it all


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## silkii_locks (Jun 27, 2010)

DDTexlaxed said:


> For me, strait hair was just easier to care for. It had nothing to do with brain washing or self hatred.  I was relaxed at an early age so I guess it was all I knew. I had been traumatized at an early age when I was natural with long hair. I was so tender headed and all my mom did was hot comb my hair. I still remember the burned hair smell. I would ideally love long natural hair, so that is a future goal of mine.


 
You took the words right outta my mouth.  I just like being able to "deal" with my hair without having to devote half the weekend to it.


----------



## lovegymnasts (Jun 27, 2010)

Sugar said:


> I wonder why no one ever asks white and other non-black women why they alter their hair so much?  And believe me...they do.  Why are we always the targets?



I'm weird because I actually do. It's something that perplexes me. Generally, they look confounded as if it never occurred to them to question why. Most of the responses I get are because I don't like my hair color and I think I look better with lighter hair or blond is prettier. When I ask them why they think this, they can't tell me why.


----------



## Sugar (Jun 27, 2010)

LoveisYou said:


> It's sad but this thread is an example of of the historical ignorace that is so prevalent in our culture.  How is it possible to live in this country and not know the historical basis of beauty standards?  How is it possible not to recognize the ways in which history have impacted today?  How can you not recognize that the reasons so many black women bleach their skin and straighten their hair has a lot to do with the historical onslaught on our physical makeup?  How can we not recognize the preference for light skin, "pretty hair" and light eyes as connected with slavery and colonialsim?
> Is it just an accident that so many negative connotations are attached to natural hair?
> 
> I do see a small light of hope though.  More women are embracing their natural hair, more naturals are being featured in commericials etc.  Hopefully, our liitle black girls are taking notice and that it will have a positive effect on their self-esteem. I for one want little black girls to realize that beauty comes in all forms. For once, I want to see a study where little black girls won't overwhemingly show  a preference for white dolls.  I want them to be influenced by a media that shows them beauty in all forms.



I think its sad that this thread is a reminder of how blacks keep themselves divided...and the divisive method of choice in this case is something a simple as hair styling.  Some of you remind me of uber-religious folks who can't stop trying to force their views on everyone else.  If you don't believe like they do then you're not saved and are damned to Hell.  Only here its...if you prefer straight hair or relax then you're brainwashed and self-hating.   We are not monolithic and we aren't going to like or want the same things.  

I was never that little Black girl who looked at white girls hair and wanted it or questioned why I didn't have it.  We were just different and I was okay with that.  I was more likely to try to emulate a Black girl's hair style...because we actually "do" our hair.


----------



## Sugar (Jun 27, 2010)

Chelz said:


> Or better yet, if relaxers or pressing combs(flat irons) never came about in the past out of people trying to conform to society, would it still just be a "styling option" for you today?? No, because it probably wouldnt even exist.  Where our practices originate from do make a difference, because if not for these practices in the past, they would not be that prevalent in society as it is today. You wouldnt see all these relaxers on shelves depicting black women on the cover with their "straight" hair. These so called "styling options" are still fueled in part today by the same thing that originally brought them about.
> 
> People may like to think of it as just a simple styling option, but when the vast majority of bw have straight hair and given our history, it becomes far more than just a simple styling option. It is a direct result of the past/present attempts to conform with society.
> 
> Its just like on tv shows/movies, if someone were to go back in time and change one small thing and then come back to the present, it would be a world of difference. If we went back in time and uninvented(lol) the relaxer or pressing comb, would we still be on here having this conversation?:scratchch



So you think we wouldn't have figured out how to use blow dryers, curling irons, flat irons, and rollers while sitting under a dryer to straighten our hair?  

White girls stay on the grind looking for ways to have straight hair.  Hell back in the 60s and 70s white chicks were using irons...CLOTHING IRONS...to straighten their hair!  But we're the only ones who are seen as self-hating or brainwashed for preferring straight hair


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## Sounique (Jun 27, 2010)

If a bw marries a white man, does that mean she has abandoned her race and not love herself?


Can we say that the only reason that bw have desires for the wm is  because of mental brainwashing?


Thousands of black slaves were raped by their white slave masters and had their mulatto babies. I suppose black women should never date, fall in love and/or marry a white man and have biracial babies, because of what happened in the past. Back then it was rape, today it is a choice, as goes the relaxer.


----------



## dynamic1 (Jun 27, 2010)

Sugar said:


> I* think its sad that this thread is a reminder of how blacks keep themselves divided...and the divisive method of choice in this case is something a simple as hair styling*. *Some of you remind me of uber-religious folks who can't stop trying to force their views on everyone else.* If you don't believe like they do then you're not saved and are damned to Hell. Only here its...if you prefer straight hair or relax then you're brainwashed and self-hating. We are not monolithic and we aren't going to like or want the same things.
> 
> I was never that little Black girl who looked at white girls hair and wanted it or questioned why I didn't have it. We were just different and I was okay with that. I was more likely to try to emulate a Black girl's hair style...because we actually "do" our hair.


 

I think it is sad people feel divided over a difference of opinion.  If you believe disagreement creates division, why do you keep participating?   

Good morning pot, let me introduce you to kettle.


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## LadyRaider (Jun 27, 2010)

Okay so compare it to a religious argument. Say your momma worshiped cows. And your grandmother, etc. etc. So you worship cows. It's cultural. It's what you do. It's all you know. So there may have been some higher (or lower) reasoning to why your great-great-great-great-great grandmother started worshiping cows, but for you... it's just the way you do things.

So the same is with relaxers. Your momma does it. Your grandma does it. Your cousins do it. Friends. Aunts. People on tv. So you do too. It's just the way it is for you. Perhaps, in 1902, your ancestor might have had some deep psychological reason for relaxing her hair, but now you do it just because it is a cultural norm.  No brainwashing involved... unless it's a long term, cultural brainwashing.

The biggest reason I decided to go without relaxers is because my cousin told me she didn't relax anymore, and another friend from high school said she didn't anymore. For me, suddenly it is not a norm. 

Still like straight hair though. I like swanging it. I like to show length (what little I have.) If I'm brainwashed then it occurred in the culture way before I was born.


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## NYDee (Jun 27, 2010)

I don't think it's any different from white people's obsession with tanning. Why isn't that considered inferiority complex? Why are people not asking them why they are trying to be brown? I have heard white people say "You look sick, get a tan". Are the almighty white people above self-hate or they are just confident in themselves enough to know that making themselves a little brown doesn’t take away their whiteness?

One of my life policy is "Live and let's live". Everyone should be free to do what they want as long as it doesn't hurt others and the society. Choosing to wear my hair curly or straight is my business only. It’s shouldn’t be seen as being trying to be white. It's not different from other preferences I have in life. Can people just breathe and not read so much meaning to why people chose to wear their hair a certain way, dress a certain way, speak a certain way? The beauty of life is the diversity of people and personalities. Live and let's live.


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## Bun Mistress (Jun 27, 2010)

Ok this thread has gotten long but I finally read through it.  I appreciate everyone's comments.  Now my turn.  
I do have yt friends/coworkers that perfer my hair kinjky rather then straight.  I recently started wearing my hair more straight (just blow drying) and they have noticed a difference and comment.  I perer to blow dry my hair because of the SSK and tangles.  It is actually less work.  A once a month blow dry session then braids compared to twisting or braiding my hair every night or else knots and I still had tons of SSK, and my hair was always rough and dry. 

If I could wear WNG or puffs I would but, I tried that for a week and it ended in a 5 hour detangling session followed by a 4 hour blow dry and lots of hair loss.  (I shed like a cat).  

Also my ex (some BM some YM) also like me better with textured hair (I would do a twistout before I knew what a twist out was).  So I think that peoples ideals of hair texture are changing, slowly.  Very slowly.


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## Ladybelle (Jun 27, 2010)

This conversation usually boils down to two arguments:

1) black women who straighten their hair have been brainwashed by society/history to think they can't be pretty without it and these poor ol' women don't understand the implications of their actions

2) it's just hair 

Historically speaking (speaking for myself only) if the implications of history were so great, I'd be scared to ride on the front of the bus, scared to ever get a white person straight, I wouldn't have went to college cuz ol' massa told me I couldn't learnz hows to reed. But, that isn't the case. I wear my hair straight because I prefer it that way. I've worn it natural (and will probably go natural again one day) I wear braids and anything else I do to my hair simply because I want to.  THAT'S THE ONLY REASON. Sometimes folks tend to make things deeper than they really are. 

I don't argue that some folks have color complexes, but everyone who wears straight hair don't- including me. 

I must beg the pardon of those who find me and others like me to be so naive that I won't  challenge my master and walk around with kinky hair. I also wear makeup on occassion, lord help me with my insecurity!!!


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## JuiceMobsta (Jun 27, 2010)

Sugar said:


> So you think we wouldn't have figured out how to use blow dryers, curling irons, flat irons, and rollers while sitting under a dryer to straighten our hair?
> 
> White girls stay on the grind looking for ways to have straight hair.  Hell back in the 60s and 70s white chicks were using irons...CLOTHING IRONS...to straighten their hair!  But we're the only ones who are seen as self-hating or brainwashed for preferring straight hair



Did I say that? Nope. I said straight hair would be less prevalent in our community. And alot of whites already have straight hair, even if it is curly it is still drastically different from kinky hair. Stop trying to compare apples and oranges.


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## nikolite (Jun 27, 2010)

LaFemmeNaturelle said:


> I know my opinion probably doesn't matter but I actually am very concerned with how the media portrays women and how we think there's something wrong with gray hair. Why do women feel the need to dye their hair just to be beautiful? What is wrong with aging?....yeah this is OT but I just hate those commercials that talk about dyeing grays and being beautiful again. Aint nothin wrong with gray!
> 
> Carry on.....



I'm with you.  Ageism is just as much of a problem as any of the other -isms people deal with in their daily lives.  But why are so many not realizing the parallel with having to relax ones hair or dye it blond or how boys must wear blue.  Its still oppression because to do otherwise would create adverse reactions from the majority and its still all based on socialization.  There are cultures (Okinawa, Japan) where old age is celebrated, you won't find hair dyeing there.  

I can tell you my mother HATES dyeing her hair.  But she knows how people will perceive her if she looks her age.  She looks very young actually, but she knows that if she let her gray hair grow in she'd add 10 years to her life and become undesirable and all that.  Its not fair and she still does it, but she sure isn't delusional about it.  

But there comes the "preference" excuse for people.  The fact that black men marry overwhelmingly outside of their own race (more than any other race) and while black women have the least rates of marriage OVERALL is the result of these mysterious "preferences".  Lots of black men also say they prefer light skin and/or white women and I bet plenty of black women would pause at that and start to think about it.  I can't believe how many people start talking about preferences when John Mayer, Yung Berg, etc. start publicly demeaning black women.  The preference for a size 2 over a size 10 is somehow different though--THAT's not a preference that's wrong.  People can see that one plain as day.  bTW, I don't have a problem with interracial dating at all, but I can recognize a TREND/PATTERN for what it is.  

I agree with Jennboo.  Most people GET these types of examples of socialization/brainwashing but they always stop short and become completely dumbfounded all of a sudden whenever hair comes up.  Its just denial, and I understand it.  It hurts to hear these types of things for some people.  And defensiveness and feigning ignorance is the only protection for the psyche.


----------



## lovegymnasts (Jun 27, 2010)

NYDee said:


> I don't think it's any different from white people's obsession with tanning. Why isn't that considered inferiority complex? Why are people not asking them why they are trying to be brown? I have heard white people say "You look sick, get a tan". Are the almighty white people above self-hate or they are just confident in themselves enough to know that making themselves a little brown doesn’t take away their whiteness?
> 
> One of my life policy is "Live and let's live". Everyone should be free to do what they want as long as it doesn't hurt others and the society. Choosing to wear my hair curly or straight is my business only. It’s shouldn’t be seen as being trying to be white. It's not different from other preferences I have in life. Can people just breathe and not read so much meaning to why people chose to wear their hair a certain way, dress a certain way, speak a certain way? The beauty of life is the diversity of people and personalities. Live and let's live.



Actually there is a reason behind this also.
People used to cover themselves up and want to be as white as possible to show that they were affluent enough to not have to work outdoors or in the fields.
Currently, people want to be tanned to show that they are affluent enough to take vacations and have free time instead of working all the time and being stuck in an office. 

As everyone has said, do what you want to do and there is no shame in that but there is no crime in acknowledging the reasons behind our actions.


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## Sugar (Jun 27, 2010)

dynamic1 said:


> I think it is sad people feel divided over a difference of opinion.  If you believe disagreement creates division, why do you keep participating?
> 
> Good morning pot, let me introduce you to kettle.



Its really sad that you can't see the divisiveness...but I'm not surprised.

If it was simply that people were disagreeing it would be fine.  A healthy debate would be cool.  Respect (without judgments) for how others choose to where their hair would be wonderful.  But this topic always becomes more than a simple disagreement or healthy debate.  And it always seems to stem from a seemingly harmless question or comment.  It almost always turns into a "You prefer straight or relaxed hair so you're brainwashed or self-hating" thread.  But I never see relaxed heads on here say anything like "You need to do something with that nappy a$$ slave looking hair of yours."  Not once.

In fact, in real life, as a teenager or adult I've never witnessed a relaxed head telling someone with curly/kinky hair that her hair is bad...or degrading her because she chose to wear it that way.  But on the hairboards I witness naturals saying negative things about relaxed heads all the time. And you can say this topic is about straight, not necessarily relaxed hair...but we all knew where this was headed.

Its sad that folks can't respect other people's hair decisions.  Its sad that Black women continuously look for ways to put each other down.  On this board it takes the form of straight vs kinky or relaxed vs natural.


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## LaFemmeNaturelle (Jun 27, 2010)

^^^ Glad you've never experienced that in real life but I did all throughout school. I'd say most women who transition or BC receive alot of negativity from either stylists, strangers, family, or friends.... but I'm glad you've never had the misfortune to witness such things.

AND when relaxed women talk about THEIR "ugly, nappy, unmanageable ng" it's still an indirect hit against ALL natural hair.


Of course I'm not trying to argue that just because these things happen, that naturals should retaliate. I'm just pointing it out based on what you said.

Carry on......


----------



## nikolite (Jun 27, 2010)

Sounique said:


> This thread can go on and on without end, because there is no right or wrong answer. It's all a matter of opinion.
> 
> How can you argue with someone else's belief?
> 
> ...



Look.  Plenty of naturals have already stated that there is nothing wrong with straightening ones hair.  Just like there's no problem in press-on nails, weaves, make-up, hair coloring, curly perming, etc.  First, the DIFFERENCE between all of these things and relaxing is that none of these are PERMANENT.  They are temporary style changes like changing a shirt or dress.  No one has stated any issue with these things.  I said more than once that I straighten my hair sometimes too as a style choice (are we not reading the entire thread before posting?).  

And your last bolded sentence: I've only seen that equation in some form or another appear on the posts of relaxed posters.  What does that say about how you all are interpreting this discussion and what's going on in your mind?

The difference is that relaxers (as well as implants and surgeries, which is not relevant to the discussion but are ALSO forms of what you call "self-hate") are a way to permanently alter ones looks.  You can't make choices if the option is permanent/lifelong and (as goes for most bw) the choice was already made for you before you even hit puberty.  Especially if the same exact choice of relaxing is made for years and years on end.  You are simply choosing to conform to the societal norms.  So what?  Admit it and move on.    

Now someone might have tried the natural thing and didn't like it and chose to relax, but we're are simply stating that culture and society has a lot to do with the choices we make.  To say that one is immune to influences of their culture is virtually impossible and delusional.  Ask any social scientist.  

Second, another difference which has also already been stated repeatedly is that the majority of people do not do these other things but the majority of black women do relax their hair.  Out of all those things I see you didn't list breast reductions, brown contacts, shaving one's head bald, weight-gaining surgery, etc. or even going natural.  Why? Because these aren't "style options" that are supported by our cultural norms. That's why people don't do them in overwhelming numbers or even in small numbers.  If these things were really all about random individual choices, then there would be equal numbers of people who were natural to those relaxed or equal numbers of people who dyed their hair blonde, brunette, and red.  But blonde and straight is the overwhelming choice!

See?  Relaxing is a HUGE TREND towards PERMANENTLY altering ones natural hair.


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## dynamic1 (Jun 27, 2010)

Sugar said:


> I think its sad that this thread is a reminder of how blacks keep themselves divided...and the divisive method of choice in this case is something a simple as hair styling. *Some of you remind me of uber-religious folks who can't stop trying to force their views on everyone else. *If you don't believe like they do then you're not saved and are damned to Hell. Only here its...if you prefer straight hair or relax then you're brainwashed and self-hating. We are not monolithic and we aren't going to like or want the same things.
> 
> I was never that little Black girl who looked at white girls hair and wanted it or questioned why I didn't have it. We were just different and I was okay with that. I was more likely to try to emulate a Black girl's hair style...because we actually "do" our hair.


 
@ bold --This isn't divisive? erplexed



Sugar said:


> Its really sad that you can't see the divisiveness...but I'm not surprised.
> 
> If it was simply that people were disagreeing it would be fine. A healthy debate would be cool. Respect (without judgments) for how others choose to where their hair would be wonderful. But this topic always becomes more than a simple disagreement or healthy debate. And it always seems to stem from a seemingly harmless question or comment. It almost always turns into a "You prefer straight or relaxed hair so you're brainwashed or self-hating" thread. But I never see relaxed heads on here say anything like "You need to do something with that nappy a$$ slave looking hair of yours." Not once.
> 
> ...


People come to this board frequently with these examples.  I am glad you have never witnessed it.  Also, did you miss the Nazi, uber religious, insecure, etc. comments about those that don't dismiss the history?


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## Sugar (Jun 27, 2010)

Chelz said:


> Did I say that? Nope. I said straight hair would be less prevalent in our community. And alot of whites already have straight hair, even if it is curly it is still drastically different from kinky hair. Stop trying to compare apples and oranges.



That's the thing...I disagree.  It would be just as prevalent because of the advent of blow dryers, curling irons, flat irons, hard hat dryers, and marcel irons....and wigs and weaves. 

And your last sentence made me realize what the disconnect is for me with this whole "straight hair = brainwashed" thing.  I don't see it as comparing apples and oranges.  White women have hair styling options and I have similar (and sometimes the same) hair styling options...and I exercise quite a few of them.  

I don't have an inferiority complex to white folks or anyone else.  I don't think their hair is better than mine.  I don't covet their hair.  I don't see them as better than me in general. My attitude is "if she can do it, I can too...probably better." At work, at school, on the street, in the grocery store, in a club...I don't give 2 flying figs what white folks think of my hair.  I'm usually surprised when they comment on it (which is rare to be honest).


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## *CherryPie* (Jun 27, 2010)

If I say that my ng is unmanageable, ugly, or nappy. What would that have to do with the naturals? I wouldn't be describing YOUR hair. Maybe your (and other naturals) hair is manageable, and beautiful. Maybe, maybe not. Who knows?

That says something about your self esteem when you have to go by what OTHERS think, feel or like for you to feel/be okay with your hair.



LaFemmeNaturelle said:


> ^^^ Glad you've never experienced that in real life but I did all throughout school. I'd say most women who transition or BC receive alot of negativity from either stylists, strangers, family, or friends.... but I'm glad you've never had the misfortune to witness such things.
> 
> AND when relaxed women talk about THEIR "ugly, nappy, unmanageable ng" it's still an indirect hit against ALL natural hair.
> 
> ...


----------



## Sugar (Jun 27, 2010)

LaFemmeNaturelle said:


> ^^^ Glad you've never experienced that in real life but I did all throughout school. I'd say most women who transition or BC receive alot of negativity from either stylists, strangers, family, or friends.... but I'm glad you've never had the misfortune to witness such things.
> 
> AND when relaxed women talk about THEIR "ugly, nappy, unmanageable ng" it's still an indirect hit against ALL natural hair.
> 
> ...



Please don't take this as me being callous or mean.  But my natural personality is such that I would tell all the people who had a problem with my hair to *** off...if such a person was bold enough to say something to me about it.  Even my mom and dad know that their opinions of my hair don't count for much.  My opinion and likes are what matter most (and perhaps my SO...lol)

By that same token I've had to tell a few folks to develop thicker skin.  I don't want to hear all this whining about somebody doesn't like my hair...white folks at the job don't like my coils and kinks.  Cry me a river, build a bridge, and get the *** over it.  Somebody is ALWAYS going to find something not to like about you.  DO YOU.  Do whatever preparations or alterations that make you feel good about yourself.  Be proud of your decision on how to style your hair and stand by it.  *** what anybody else thinks.

ETA:  Anybody who comments on her own NG is not making a direct hit on ALL natural hair.  She's commenting about her own hair.  If someone is vain enough to think that song is about them...well hell...that's just too bad.


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## nikolite (Jun 27, 2010)

NYDee said:


> *I don't think it's any different from white people's obsession with tanning. Why isn't that considered inferiority complex? Why are people not asking them why they are trying to be brown? I have heard white people say "You look sick, get a tan". Are the almighty white people above self-hate or they are just confident in themselves enough to know that making themselves a little brown doesn’t take away their whiteness?*
> 
> *One of my life policy is "Live and let's live". Everyone should be free to do what they want as long as it doesn't hurt others and the society. *Choosing to wear my hair curly or straight is my business only. It’s shouldn’t be seen as being trying to be white. It's not different from other preferences I have in life. Can people just breathe and not read so much meaning to why people chose to wear their hair a certain way, dress a certain way, speak a certain way? The beauty of life is the diversity of people and personalities. Live and let's live.



I agree with the bolded!  But no one's talking about this because this is a BLACK HAIR CARE FORUM.  That simple.

But in the red:  There's a thin line here between what is hurting someone else when it comes to cultural trends.  This is the most effective way that minority groups are oppressed in society because of the laissez-faire attitude about lifestyles, especially as propagated by the media.


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## Sugar (Jun 27, 2010)

dynamic1 said:


> @ bold --This isn't divisive? erplexed
> 
> 
> People come to this board frequently with these examples.  I am glad you have never witnessed it.  Also, did you miss the Nazi, uber religious, insecure, etc. comments about those that don't dismiss the history?



Divisive against uber-religious folks I suppose.  But having grown up in an uber-religious household and growing up in a church full of people who often tried to force their religious views on others...well...I'm pretty much just speaking from experience.

As for your second comment...are you referring to missing comments about those things in the threads?


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## yora88 (Jun 27, 2010)

Honestly, as far as I am concerned. White women don't have much influence on my beauty practices. Now Brazilian women, that's a whole 'nother story.


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## nikolite (Jun 27, 2010)

Sounique said:


> If a bw marries a white man, does that mean she has abandoned her race and not love herself?
> 
> 
> Can we say that the only reason that bw have desires for the wm is  because of mental brainwashing?
> ...



But that's not happening in any remotely substantial numbers so why bring it up?  Can we say that the wm having a desire for bw is a result of brainwashing?  No, because that's not in anyway encouraged or condoned in American culture and there aren't a huge amount of these types of relationships.  

This example is like comparing apples to tuna.  On an individual level, of course that would be a choice, but if BW were doing it in droves then it would be pretty normal to question.  Still, we're talking about hair and the style preferences of "so many".


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## Tamster (Jun 27, 2010)

*walks in*

*nods*

*shakes head*

*walks out*

mhm. Some of you I get, some aren't getting it. that is all.


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## dynamic1 (Jun 27, 2010)

Sugar said:


> Please don't take this as me being callous or mean. But my natural personality is such that I would tell all the people who had a problem with my hair to *** off...if such a person was bold enough to say something to me about it. Even my mom and dad know that their opinions of my hair don't count for much. My opinion and likes are what matter most (and perhaps my SO...lol)
> 
> *By that same token I've had to tell a few folks to develop thicker skin. I don't want to hear all this whining about somebody doesn't like my hair...white folks at the job don't like my coils and kinks. Cry me a river, build a bridge, and get the *** over it.* Somebody is ALWAYS going to find something not to like about you. DO YOU. Do whatever preparations or alterations that make you feel good about yourself. Be proud of your decision on how to style your hair and stand by it. *** what anybody else thinks.
> 
> ETA: Anybody who comments on her own NG is not making a direct hit on ALL natural hair. She's commenting about her own hair. If someone is vain enough to think that song is about them...well hell...that's just too bad.


 
You probably don't see the irony in this statement.  

On that note, I shall pull myself away from this discussion.


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## nikolite (Jun 27, 2010)

Sugar said:


> In fact, in real life, as a teenager or adult I've never witnessed a relaxed head telling someone with curly/kinky hair that her hair is bad...or degrading her because she chose to wear it that way.  But on the hairboards I witness naturals saying negative things about relaxed heads all the time.



Where did you grow up?  Did you at least watch BET?


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## nikolite (Jun 27, 2010)

Sugar said:


> *I don't have an inferiority complex to white folks or anyone else.  I don't think their hair is better than mine.  I don't covet their hair.  I don't see them as better than me in general. My attitude is "if she can do it, I can too...probably better." *



The last sentence here completely contradicts what precedes it.


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## Sugar (Jun 27, 2010)

nikolite said:


> Where did you grow up?  Did you at least watch BET?



In the Midwest...and alas, I spent most of my time in church so there was very little time for BET.  Nor would I have been allowed to watch anything other than Teen Summit as secular music was off limits.  But between church, school...and the mall (when I could escape) I was always around people.

I still haven't even seen half the episodes of In Living Color


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## Sugar (Jun 27, 2010)

nikolite said:


> The last sentence here completely contradicts what precedes it.



It does? How so?  Because to me it says I feel like I'm equal to they are.  As in, no less than they are (of course there was the slightly arrogant twist on the end).  Perhaps if there is confusion over my meaning I should have worded it differently.


----------



## nikolite (Jun 27, 2010)

*CherryPie* said:


> If I say that my ng is unmanageable, ugly, or nappy. What would that have to do with the naturals? I wouldn't be describing YOUR hair. Maybe your (and other naturals) hair is manageable, and beautiful. Maybe, maybe not. Who knows?
> 
> That says something about your self esteem when you have to go by what OTHERS think, feel or like for you to feel/be okay with your hair.



No, no.  I LOVE my hair (that's why I went natural)! I'm sad about the fact that you (and millions of other bw) don't love your own.  

I'm also saddened by women who feel the need to get breast implants or dye their grays.  It has nothing to do with insecurity about my own breasts or the gray hair that I do not even have.


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## LaFemmeNaturelle (Jun 27, 2010)

*CherryPie* said:


> If I say that my ng is unmanageable, ugly, or nappy. What would that have to do with the naturals? I wouldn't be describing YOUR hair. Maybe your (and other naturals) hair is manageable, and beautiful. Maybe, maybe not. Who knows?
> 
> That says something about your self esteem when you have to go by what OTHERS think, feel or like for you to feel/be okay with your hair.


 

I'm not going to even comment on the things you INFERRED from what I said. Because what I posted says NOTHING about my self-esteem BUT here's another example:

If a darkskinned woman says her dark skin is ugly, are you really gonna say that she's only talking about HER skin? No, this woman thinks dark skin in general is ugly.

Yeah, my hair is beautiful and manageable TO ME but if my hair looks very much similar to yours and behaves the same way and you come along saying how ugly YOUR hair is TO YOU, are you really gonna sit there and say that your personal feelings don't include my hair as well? Or are you gonna say "oh no YOUR hair is prettier because it isn't as kinky as mine"  or whatever excuse someone can come up with and blahblahblah.....which leads right to some of the arguments in this post........What makes Alicia's natural hair beautiful and yours ugly?


----------



## lovegymnasts (Jun 27, 2010)

LaFemmeNaturelle said:


> I'm not going to even comment on the things you INFERRED from what I said. Because what I posted says NOTHING about my self-esteem BUT here's another example:
> 
> If a darkskinned woman says her dark skin is ugly, are you really gonna say that she's only talking about HER skin? No, this woman thinks dark skin in general is ugly.
> 
> Yeah, my hair is beautiful and manageable TO ME but if my hair looks very much similar to yours and behaves the same way and you come along saying how ugly YOUR hair is TO YOU, are you really gonna sit there and say that your personal feelings don't include my hair as well? Or are you gonna say "oh no YOUR hair is prettier because it isn't as kinky as mine"  or whatever excuse someone can come up with and blahblahblah.....which leads right to some of the arguments in this post........What makes Alicia's natural hair beautiful and yours ugly?




*Good example!*
I liked that.


----------



## LaFemmeNaturelle (Jun 27, 2010)

Sugar said:


> Please don't take this as me being callous or mean. But my natural personality is such that I would tell all the people who had a problem with my hair to *** off...if such a person was bold enough to say something to me about it. Even my mom and dad know that their opinions of my hair don't count for much. My opinion and likes are what matter most (and perhaps my SO...lol)
> 
> By that same token I've had to tell a few folks to develop thicker skin. I don't want to hear all this whining about somebody doesn't like my hair...white folks at the job don't like my coils and kinks. Cry me a river, build a bridge, and get the *** over it. Somebody is ALWAYS going to find something not to like about you. DO YOU. Do whatever preparations or alterations that make you feel good about yourself. Be proud of your decision on how to style your hair and stand by it. *** what anybody else thinks.
> 
> ETA: Anybody who comments on her own NG is not making a direct hit on ALL natural hair. She's commenting about her own hair. If someone is vain enough to think that song is about them...well hell...that's just too bad.


 

Um...I'm glad you don't care how people feel about your hair and neither do I. That's not what I commented on. YOU said you never witnessed that in real life and I simply pointed out that it happened. Ya'll have been inferring things throughout this entire thread when no one even brought it up.


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## EastClevelandK (Jun 27, 2010)

Wow.  I must be really naive.

As a white woman who teaches in a 100% black community (for many years), I have only had good experiences.  I love my students and they love me, their parents are nice, and I count many of my "co-teachers" (who are all black) among my dearest friends.  

I had no idea that this type of hatred was so common among black people.  I am shocked by the things I have read many of you say in this thread.  I have NEVER heard a group of white women talk about black women like you are talking about us.  As a matter of fact, I've never heard ANY white woman say something negative about black women.  We never say this type of racist nonsense.  It's considered ignorant and uneducated by all white people I know.  I am shocked that these types of comments are considered as acceptable by so many of you on this board.

And what, exactly, is ethnic hair???  I am a blond white girl with a natural afro-tight-curl pattern.  I see Asians (are they not part of an ethnic group???) with stick-straight hair...

And in regards to, so-called "black features", you may want to look in the mirror as to who is defining what is acceptable or desirable...I know good-looking, successful white guys who think dark-skinned black women ala Lauren Hill are hot but are too intimidated to approach them, while I know a black guy who only dates bland white women no matter what they look like...so you may want to think about who is really the culprits for what you THINK are society's standards of beauty.

Wow...just wow...


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## nikolite (Jun 27, 2010)

Sugar said:


> I still haven't even seen half the episodes of In Living Color
> 
> ...
> 
> It does? How so? Because to me it says I feel like I'm equal to they are. As in, no less than they are (of course there was the slightly arrogant twist on the end). Perhaps if there is confusion over my meaning I should have worded it differently.



Ooooh, you have missed out on some great comedy!  Rent the videos if you can, ASAP! 

Well, to say you can do what someone else can do shows that you would like to do what they can do, which means you do covet it to some extent.  But so do I sometimes, that's no biggie.  But if you thought the two were equal wouldn't you spend equal time wearing your hair straight and in its natural state?


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## LaFemmeNaturelle (Jun 27, 2010)

eh.........


ETA: Idk....I've never liked In Living Color lol maybe I'm too young...but I try to watch it.....

Sorry I have to laugh at your comments EastCleveland. I'm glad you haven't had to witness those things but I don't see how it's hard to miss. As a sociology major, I've discussed these topics countless times with people of all races and nationalities. I've heard of the self-hate within ALL groups of people and I, along with many of my friends and classmates, have experienced and discussed PLENTY of direct and indirect forms of racism on my very liberal campus.....and I don't even know how your last paragraph is relevant.


Carry on....


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## BeetleBug (Jun 27, 2010)

EastClevelandK said:


> Wow.  I must be really naive.
> 
> As a white woman who teaches in a 100% black community (for many years), I have only had good experiences.  I love my students and they love me, their parents are nice, and I count many of my "co-teachers" (who are all black) among my dearest friends.
> 
> ...



I haven't read anything hateful toward white women in this thread.


----------



## Sounique (Jun 27, 2010)

nikolite said:


> Look.  Plenty of naturals have already stated that there is nothing wrong with straightening ones hair.  Just like there's no problem in press-on nails, weaves, make-up, hair coloring, curly perming, etc.  First, the DIFFERENCE between all of these things and relaxing is that none of these are PERMANENT.  They are temporary style changes like changing a shirt or dress.  No one has stated any issue with these things.  I said more than once that I straighten my hair sometimes too as a style choice (are we not reading the entire thread before posting?).
> 
> And your last bolded sentence: I've only seen that equation in some form or another appear on the posts of relaxed posters.  What does that say about how you all are interpreting this discussion and what's going on in your mind?
> 
> ...




Hold up...
Give me 50 feet...
I guess I struck a nerve with you
I usually have that affect on people
Nevertheless...

First...
I was not calling anyone person out in this thread, so I have no idea why YOU are so defensive... I guess you are the unofficial spokesperson for ALL naturals.

Second...
A nose job is permanent, relaxing is not, since your hair will continue to grow and you can always decide not to relax anymore. It's referred to as transitioning, which is what I am in the process of doing myself. 

Third... 
You asked the question "What's going on in my mind?" 
Your angry disposition tells me that I don't even have to dignify that question with an answer.

Fourth...
I have 5 daughters, that are all natural, (2 are 4b, 1 is 4a, 1 is 3b and another 3c),  a natural mother, a relaxed mother in-law, 2 relaxed sister, 3 natural sisters, a white grandmother, an Asian grandmother and a host of other family and friends that are both relaxed and natural, Black, Caucasian, Asian and Hispanic. I would be confused as hell trying to conform to all these cultural diversities, that I'm exposed to, just within my own circle of family and friends.  So don't TRY to judge me based on a post and think you can read me, size me up and break me down.


----------



## Sugar (Jun 27, 2010)

LaFemmeNaturelle said:


> I'm not going to even comment on the things you INFERRED from what I said. Because what I posted says NOTHING about my self-esteem BUT here's another example:
> 
> *If a darkskinned woman says her dark skin is ugly, are you really gonna say that she's only talking about HER skin? No, this woman thinks dark skin in general is ugly.
> *
> Yeah, my hair is beautiful and manageable TO ME but if my hair looks very much similar to yours and behaves the same way and you come along saying how ugly YOUR hair is TO YOU, are you really gonna sit there and say that your personal feelings don't include my hair as well? Or are you gonna say "oh no YOUR hair is prettier because it isn't as kinky as mine"  or whatever excuse someone can come up with and blahblahblah.....which leads right to some of the arguments in this post........What makes Alicia's natural hair beautiful and yours ugly?



I dislike curly hair on me.  But on my nieces and quite a few other people its gorgeous.  But on me I just don't like it...except for the occasionally afro puff that I achieve with my phony pony.


----------



## *CherryPie* (Jun 27, 2010)

I love my NG, and everything about ME. 

I was responding to someone that made a comment saying that when she hear people saying they don't like their NG, she feels it's affects all naturals.

.....But i'm sure you knew already that, and is being sarcastic. Anyway, I advise you to read the post where my response came from before posting.

But maybe I'm expecting too much of you.



nikolite said:


> No, no. I LOVE my hair (that's why I went natural)! I'm sad about the fact that you (and millions of other bw) don't love your own.
> 
> I'm also saddened by women who feel the need to get breast implants or dye their grays. It has nothing to do with insecurity about my own breasts or the gray hair that I do not even have.


----------



## Sugar (Jun 27, 2010)

LaFemmeNaturelle said:


> Um...I'm glad you don't care how people feel about your hair and neither do I. That's not what I commented on. YOU said you never witnessed that in real life and I simply pointed out that it happened. Ya'll have been inferring things throughout this entire thread when no one even brought it up.



Not inferring...commenting on your comment about a woman who think her ng is ugly and how it a direct hit on everyone else's natural hair.


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## PearlyCurly (Jun 27, 2010)

wooooooaaaahh! i cant believe this thread is now 16pgs long
 i'll come back when it hits 25:alcoholic


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## LaFemmeNaturelle (Jun 27, 2010)

There's a STRONG difference between saying "i don't like how curly hair looks on me" and "I HATE MY UNRULY, UGLY HAIR AND I HAVE TO PERM THIS NAPPY ISH IMMEDIATELY"......maybe it's just me....but one seems to be much more extreme and stems from deeper issues.

I don't like short hair on me but I don't go around saying SHORT HAIR IS SO UGLY OMG!


----------



## skegeesmb (Jun 27, 2010)

EastClevelandK said:


> Wow.  I must be really naive.
> 
> As a white woman who teaches in a 100% black community (for many years), I have only had good experiences.  I love my students and they love me, their parents are nice, and I count many of my "co-teachers" (who are all black) among my dearest friends.
> 
> ...




I'm not trying to be mean here, but many white women know exactly what "ethnic" hair is.  And is the first to point out when their hair is not straight it's an nappy afro.  

Well you are in the minority when it comes to white women not talking about black people or other ethnic people who are not white.  I suggest you read "Backstage Racism".  It explains when white people are within the safety of other white people will they talk about stereotypical views of Asians, Blacks, Hispanic, etc.  While that may not be you, it is a view of many.

At least you don't think all black women talk like this.  Unfortunately you've learned that 1 white woman that doesn't think like the norm doesn't speak for the entire white population.  This is something that many black people "token blacks" have had to fight to show they were different.

Instead of saying tsk tsk, how about you read some more, figure out where the anger lies, and when you are in your hushed groups or hear it, you stamp it out.  It's hard though because no one likes to be the outsider or the "trouble maker" because it's "just a joke".  Good luck to you.


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## nikolite (Jun 27, 2010)

Sounique said:


> Hold up...
> Give me 50 feet...
> I guess I struck a nerve with you
> I usually have that affect on people
> ...



Honestly, my comments were not directed solely towards you, but yes, I was irritated with the constant misinterpretations of the posts made here.  I'm not sure if some are not reading the whole thread or are just purposefully ignoring what I and others have explained already and repeating the same WRONG interpretations of what we are saying.  I am a spokesperson for myself as a natural whose views you incorrectly summarized, which is why I spoke.  

Relaxing is permanent because you have to either cut off or transition for a while to get rid of relaxed hair.  If it ain't completely permament (on that note, neither is a nose job because it can be re-done) then its definitely a drastic change that is damn near permanent.  

Not one natural said that relaxed = inferiority yet it keeps resurfacing on your and other relaxed ladies' posts.  Excuse me for pointing that out, but that looks strange to me.  

To your last point, the "you" in my third paragraph was not referring to you.  I was speaking about people in general.  I apologize I should have used the word "one" but I tend to do that when I speak to someone in person, especially when speaking hypothetically.  I forget that this is written language and you can't detect that!  Sorry.


----------



## andromeda (Jun 27, 2010)

The fact that ~70% of black women relax their hair or perpetually wear it straight is not a coincidence.  The fact that relaxers and pressing combs were borne out of a white supremacist climate of slavery and colonization that was hostile and downright contemptuous of characteristically black features cannot be refuted and should not be ignored.  (Although I think it should also be taken into account that blacks on this side of the Atlantic were bereft of the traditional tools and products used to take care of their natural hair and this no doubt also led to them being bereft of the dignity that had traditionally accompanied donning their natural hair.)  I acknowledge these things, I've always been aware of the historical/social context and yet I find the tone and statements of some in this thread condescending, belittling, self-righteous and obnoxious.

I pretty much agree with nappyrina's post that outlined how the predominance of relaxed/straightened hair in the black community influences black women.  I think it's a matter of exposure and perceived options.  The fact that straightened hair has gotten to be considered the default amongst black women, a group where "1a" is not just a minority (like blonds) but is not even naturally _possible_, is disturbing.  And yet, it's understandable that when straight hair is dominant - among the general population and black women - and when the market of products, images and information reflects that dominance, perception (and reality) is influenced by this dominance.  The "tyranny of the default" is a common term used in the tech sphere and the "path of least resistance" is a similar concept used in general parlance.  Our choices are _influenced extrinsicall_y by what's perceived as most easy, popular and/or acceptable and yet, I don't believe this influence necessarily means that "deep down, one's _intrinsic_ _motivation_ to relax/straighten is rooted in the same feelings of inferiority associated with slavery, colonization or post-traumatic slave disorder, the same feelings likely held by those who were on the cusp of relaxer/pressing adoption.  

I do not doubt that these feelings are the motivation for a sizable number of black women who relax/straighten.  I do not doubt that there are some who wear straightened hair who are genuinely ignorant or disingenuously in denial of the legacy of colonialism/slavery and its impact on current beauty ideals.  There are some who are complicit in perpetuating this ideal, simply by virtue of following the path of least resistance, and there also those who embrace the perpetuation of the dominant beauty ideal, by denigrating certain types of natural hair.  The example that several have pointed out of black people who recoil at the sight of a coil, curl or a nap is certainly proof that the latter mentality exists but it is NOT a definitive reflection of the mentality of all who straighten.  I believe there is a significant segment of black women who relax/straighten and do NOT have ulterior/latent motives which are "volatile or ugly" - their decision might be influenced by a faulty, yet genuine belief that straight is more manageable in _general_ or by their own experience that relaxed/straight hair is more feasible in their _specific_ case or the knowledge that _for them_, straight hair is a styling option - full stop.  And each of these 3 beliefs/experiences *is compatible* with a genuine belief that natural black hair in general isn't inferior and that their own natural hair specifically isn't "bad". 

I think what some people are defensive about isn't the acknowledgement that the legacy of colonialism/slavery played a major role in the adoption of relaxers/straighteners or the statement that it can't be a coincidence that the overwhelming majority of black women wear their hair straightened.  It's the tendency of people to pay lip service to the possible existence of non-brainwashed/ignorant/self-denying _in theory_ but refuse to acknowledge their existence when presented with them_ in reality_.  Or it's the outright belief that such black women couldn't possibly exist and are akin to unicorns - fabled creatures that some are people are choose to foolishly believe in as a means to escape harsh reality.  There's a refusal to accept the existence of any black woman who falls outside their generalizations/theories, accompanied by characterizing them and their explanations as ignorant/delusional, dense or disingenuous.  And the fact that some who relax/straighten are honest in admitting that their preference stems from a negative place is taken as inscrutable proof that those who do not admit such roots are being dishonest or haven't performed no-holds-barred introspection.  

I can understand why some ladies anticipate criticisms which haven't specifically been made in this thread [yet] - because the same usual suspect show up in all these threads and have often implied or made those criticisms.  It's self-indulgent and, dare I say, masturbatory.  I find it interesting that I rarely see theusualsuspect post in threads that don't involve some variation of this discussion; I rarely see them posting in threads offering support or advice to people who are contemplating going natural, are new to going natural or are experiencing difficulties in their natural journey.  Heck, I'm trying to recall if I've seen them give any compliments in natural progress/picture threads.  Maybe it's my own flawed perception so I'll do a search and, hopefully, realize that I'm wrong.  Maybe they communicate their support, advice and compliments via PM, for all I know.

I think some in this thread are guilty of the same willful ignorance and denial that they accuse others of.  The only difference is, they claim to be "enlightened", so what's *their* excuse?


~~~~~~~~~
Sidenote on drawing conclusions from trends and patterns which appear to be dominate and have possible historical/social motivations:  I've noticed that the majority of 4b/undefined 4a women don't wear their hair out in its shrunken, natural state.  I also know that 4b/undefined 4a hair, as a texture that's considered to be distinctly black, has historically been considered at the bottom of the beauty totem pole, and thus not worthy of being "shown off" like it's loosely-curled or straight counterparts.  Even as natural hair has become more accepted in the mainstream and among blacks, it's clear that curly hair (3c and below) is still preferred and this preference is reflected in marketing of hair and other products. This historical/social context, along with the fact that many 4b-typed women wear their hair in TWAs, twists, braids, locs, or other manipulated styles might lead to believe that the reason for these style choices is a reflection of some internalized insecurity/contempt for 4b hair.  But of course, I know that isn't the case for many women who wear their hair this way.  Some of these women's styling decisions very well might be the result of such internalization, or it might be influenced by the general belief that wearing 4b hair in its loose/shrunken state isn't a viable option, or it might simply be the result of a woman's particular preferences and experiences with her own 4b hair - she might love the look of her hair in a shrunken fro but feels doing so is at odds with her length/maintenance goals or she may feel that given her current length, twists suit her face better than a chunky fro or puff.  There are so many mundane details that cannot be taken into account by strangers or reconciled with the "theories" of those "enlightened" strangers...

*The fact that we don't exist in a vacuum does means that we are influenced by external factors but does not necessarily mean that we've internalized the negative aspects of those factors.  And the fact that we operate in a context shaped by historical and social elements does not necessarily mean that those elements are decisive or significantly influential/seminal in our choices.*


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## EastClevelandK (Jun 27, 2010)

Beetle Bug, Go back and read the first few pages of this thread.  People were saying "smack the stupid out of white people", saying "watch her", like you can't be friends with a white person without being suspicious of them, like we are all sneaky undercover agents who seek to destroy black women.  Saying we all try to "act innocent", but really want to be praised for being white.  It is ridiculous.  We don't do any of this.  And those who think white women are talking bad about black women behind your backs or thinking all of these mean thoughts about people of varying skin colors are delusional.  They are victims of their own fears and insecurities and should not try to project those insecurities on another group of people.


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## nikolite (Jun 27, 2010)

EastClevelandK said:


> Wow.  I must be really naive.
> 
> As a white woman who teaches in a 100% black community (for many years), I have only had good experiences.  I love my students and they love me, their parents are nice, and I count many of my "co-teachers" (who are all black) among my dearest friends.
> 
> ...



Can you please point out what racist comments you are referring to?


----------



## Harina (Jun 27, 2010)

PearlyCurly said:


> wooooooaaaahh! i cant believe this thread is now 16pgs long
> i'll come back when it hits 25:alcoholic



 Haven't been reading most of it, but i'll join you.


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## brownbean96 (Jun 27, 2010)

I understand your frustration in reading this link but please know that the opinions of a few does not equate to the bolded.  However, it would be very difficult for someone white to understand where the perceived 'anger', sometimes confusion and hostility comes from unless you come from a lineage where both you past and recent and near ancestors were and still are oppressed - where your past, identity and culture were stolen.  It would be very hard to understand where the feelings come from.  I won't even try to go into a historical lesson. But what I will say is that there is a lot to consider before making assumptions about why a particular person of color feels a certain way about the subject matter in this link.




EastClevelandK said:


> Wow. I must be really naive.
> 
> As a white woman who teaches in a 100% black community (for many years), I have only had good experiences. I love my students and they love me, their parents are nice, and I count many of my "co-teachers" (who are all black) among my dearest friends.
> 
> ...


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## Twix (Jun 27, 2010)

skegeesmb said:


> I'm not trying to be mean here, but many white women know exactly what "ethnic" hair is.  And is the first to point out when their hair is not straight it's an nappy afro.
> 
> Well you are in the minority when it comes to white women not talking about black people or other ethnic people who are not white.  I suggest you read "Backstage Racism".  *It explains when white people are within the safety of other white people will they talk about stereotypical views of Asians, Blacks, Hispanic, etc.  While that may not be you, it is a view of many.*
> 
> ...



Sorry, I have to ask: minorities don't do the bolded? Because I could have sworn that...


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## Sugar (Jun 27, 2010)

nikolite said:


> Ooooh, you have missed out on some great comedy!  Rent the videos if you can, ASAP!
> 
> Well, to say you can do what someone else can do shows that you would like to do what they can do, which means you do covet it to some extent.  But so do I sometimes, that's no biggie.  But if you thought the two were equal wouldn't you spend equal time wearing your hair straight and in its natural state?



I probably should rent them...people make these references to stuff from the show...and I. just. don't get. it. 

I don't think its that I covet it...its just an acknowledgment that I can do that too...if I so chose.  But I do get what you're saying.

I do think we're equal and for me that translates to: I can wear my hair however I please...just like they can.  Its not really about how I choose to wear it...its about the fact that its MY choice...My preference...and MY hair.


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## *CherryPie* (Jun 27, 2010)

I would say "Oh  well" that's her.

I guess I'm just one of those people that doesn't take what others say about THEMSELVES personal. It wouldn't have anything to do with me.

I don't live in a bubble. I hear folks saying things like that here and there, but I don't think twice about it. Because, she is talking about herself, not about ME.

People are gonna say things. Don't take this kind of stuff PERSONAL. 

You need to find a different way of thinking of these types of things, or you're going to be angry very often.



LaFemmeNaturelle said:


> I'm not going to even comment on the things you INFERRED from what I said. Because what I posted says NOTHING about my self-esteem BUT here's another example:
> 
> If a darkskinned woman says her dark skin is ugly, are you really gonna say that she's only talking about HER skin? No, this woman thinks dark skin in general is ugly.
> 
> Yeah, my hair is beautiful and manageable TO ME but if my hair looks very much similar to yours and behaves the same way and you come along saying how ugly YOUR hair is TO YOU, are you really gonna sit there and say that your personal feelings don't include my hair as well? Or are you gonna say "oh no YOUR hair is prettier because it isn't as kinky as mine" or whatever excuse someone can come up with and blahblahblah.....which leads right to some of the arguments in this post........What makes Alicia's natural hair beautiful and yours ugly?


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## nikolite (Jun 27, 2010)

*CherryPie* said:


> I love my NG, and everything about ME.
> 
> I was responding to someone that made a comment saying that when she hear people saying they don't like their NG, she feels it's affects all naturals.
> 
> ...



Err... I know, I know!  I was responding to your hypothetical example of "if you you thought your hair was ugly, nappy, etc".

No sarcasm on my end.  Just responding and continuing the discussion.


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## honeycomb719 (Jun 27, 2010)

I havent read through the whole thread but from what Ive seen so far tensions seems to be running kinda high is this thread. I would like to keep the thread open, with open and honest discuss going forth, without resorting to personal attacks ladies. I will keep an eye out! For now it remains open. Carry on....


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## healthyhair2 (Jun 27, 2010)

It is too bad that a simple question from someone's friend turned into this. Like the original poster, I too have been asked similar questions by friends and acquaintances. I was even asked by a friend who was Ukranian what was wrong with the N word--I explained to her more about American history and then she got it. It was confusing to her ,because it is used so much in rap music. 
  We have to realize ,that it is possible to not like characteristics that we ourselves possess, but see no fault in them in others. Sometimes it boils down to SELF confidence or self esteem. It is true that we started straightening our hair to assimilate, but is it really so true now? I tend to think that more likely, it is because we are so used to seeing images of our hair this way. Sure , I will not deny that societal pressures play a role, but we still have a CHOICE. Some of us take the choice and some of us don't. 
  I, for one ,never mind when people ask these types of questions because open dialogue about racial issues, differences,etc. is what will help change things little, by little.


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## EastClevelandK (Jun 27, 2010)

skegeesmb,

I am white.  I grew up in a 99% white school system.  I know for a fact that we don't talk about black people behind your backs because I have been around 100% white groups of people MANY TIMES and we don't do this.  In my whole life, THIS HAS NEVER HAPPENED.  If someone ever tried to do that, they would be labeled a social outcast.  It is not considered socially acceptable behavior.  Period.


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## Sugar (Jun 27, 2010)

LaFemmeNaturelle said:


> There's a STRONG difference between saying "i don't like how curly hair looks on me" and *"I HATE MY UNRULY, UGLY HAIR AND I HAVE TO PERM THIS NAPPY ISH IMMEDIATELY".*.....maybe it's just me....but one seems to be much more extreme and stems from deeper issues.
> 
> I don't like short hair on me but I don't go around saying SHORT HAIR IS SO UGLY OMG!



Perhaps a further disconnect for me is that I've never felt that way.  But even if one does feel that way its still a statement about her own hair...not anyone else's.


----------



## BeetleBug (Jun 27, 2010)

EastClevelandK said:


> Beetle Bug, Go back and read the first few pages of this thread.  People were saying "smack the stupid out of white people", saying "watch her", like you can't be friends with a white person without being suspicious of them, like we are all sneaky undercover agents who seek to destroy black women.  Saying we all try to "act innocent", but really want to be praised for being white.  It is ridiculous.  We don't do any of this.  And those who think white women are talking bad about black women behind your backs or thinking all of these mean thoughts about people of varying skin colors are delusional.  They are victims of their own fears and insecurities and should not try to project those insecurities on another group of people.



Go to the stormfront website and you'll see plenty of white women and men voicing their thoughts.


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## BEAUTYU2U (Jun 27, 2010)

................adlock2:


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## EastClevelandK (Jun 27, 2010)

And again, what is ethnic hair?  Kinky?  Really?  Does that mean that black people are the only "ethnic" group?  I guess all of the Asian and Indian women are actually white if their hair is straight...


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## lovegymnasts (Jun 27, 2010)

skegeesmb said:


> I'm not trying to be mean here, but many white women know exactly what "ethnic" hair is.  And is the first to point out when their hair is not straight it's an nappy afro.



I find this to be true.
My Anglo co-worker (sweet girl) has big curls that she uses some styling product to define. It makes her hair look overly shiny. Her reason for using the product is because if she does not use it, her hair is "nappy". Her words...shocked the patooty out of me when she said that.
But then she says, the reason she keeps her hair short is because when it is long, her hair is straight with curls at the end because the weight of her hair stretches her curls out.
Nappy, indeed? Please...


----------



## tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT (Jun 27, 2010)

i'm black (i think....wait...checking....yep!)  j/k  
I grew up in an over 90% white school system, graduated with confederate flags on my diploma, on the wall outside of the principle's office, and racial slurs all over the bathroom wall.
"go back to Africa" was a pretty common thing as well
but i still love everybody....i've never once said go back to Europe


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## Sugar (Jun 27, 2010)

BeetleBug said:


> Go to the stormfront website and you'll see plenty of white women and men voicing their thoughts.



I'm almost afraid to ask what the stormfront website is...


----------



## HappilyLiberal (Jun 27, 2010)

PearlyCurly said:


> wooooooaaaahh! i cant believe this thread is now 16pgs long
> i'll come back when it hits 25:alcoholic


Change your preferences so you can read 40 posts at a time.  You'll have to click less.


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## Hairsofab (Jun 27, 2010)

EastClevelandK said:


> And again, what is ethnic hair? Kinky? Really? Does that mean that black people are the only "ethnic" group? I guess all of the Asian and Indian women are actually white if their hair is straight...


 
What are you talking about? I don't think anyone even used the term ethnic hair in this thread. This is a hair board for women of color particularly women with black afro textured hair type 3-4 mostly.


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## EastClevelandK (Jun 27, 2010)

Beetlebug,

I am certainly not going to go visit some website that likely serves as a forum for mentally deranged people.  (BTW- I am sure I could find similar websites against whites, blacks, Jews, Asians, and ANY group)  There are always going to be sick, weird people in the world.  My point is that amongst NORMAL people, these types of anti-black thoughts DO NOT EXIST.  I grew up around tons of whites.  We don't think like this, we don't talk like this.  I have NEVER heard white people say things against black people in ANY kind of social setting.


----------



## HappilyLiberal (Jun 27, 2010)

Sugar said:


> I'm almost afraid to ask what the stormfront website is...



Aryan Nation...  don't bother!


----------



## LoveisYou (Jun 27, 2010)

Sugar said:


> I think its sad that this thread is a reminder of how blacks keep themselves divided...and the divisive method of choice in this case is something a simple as hair styling. Some of you remind me of uber-religious folks who can't stop trying to force their views on everyone else. If you don't believe like they do then you're not saved and are damned to Hell. Only here its...if you prefer straight hair or relax then you're brainwashed and self-hating. We are not monolithic and we aren't going to like or want the same things.
> 
> I was never that little Black girl who looked at white girls hair and wanted it or questioned why I didn't have it. We were just different and I was okay with that. I was more likely to try to emulate a Black girl's hair style...because we actually "do" our hair.


 

Ok in the effort to keep this discussion logical and not emotional and illogical, I will try this again, but I know whatever I say will probably be only understood by those who can reason with logic, not by anyone who reads what they want into arguments, because they lack emotional discipline and control and have poor reasoning abilities.

Ok, so let's try this again.  I never said that a black woman who relaxes is an automatic self-hater, sigh.  Again, I wrote about the ways in which slavery and colonialism impacted our psyches including the ways that many blacks think about hair texture.  I had no idea your personal thoughts about your hair represented the majority of black ppl.  Your personal thoughts about your hair says nothing about the negative ways that history has affected blacks in the entire African diaspora.  These impacts have many ppl working toward building self love and acceptance in the black community, because they recognize that there are problems that needs to be addressed.  I think a lot of us would actually learn something if we subtracted ourselves and our emotions from this discussion.  Again as I've said before a black woman's choice about her hair is personal, but that doesn't change the historical influences I spoke about.

If for any reason you feel attacked by the counter-arguments posters made to your arguments then that's your personal choice.  I apologize if my arguments hit a nerve, but I'm interested in an intelligent discussion not emotional e-tantrums.  We can agree to disagree with dignity, but then again as I've said before only the reasonable will understand that.


----------



## BeetleBug (Jun 27, 2010)

EastClevelandK said:


> Beetlebug,
> 
> I am certainly not going to go visit some website that likely serves as a forum for mentally deranged people.  (BTW- I am sure I could find similar websites against whites, blacks, Jews, Asians, and ANY group)  There are always going to be sick, weird people in the world.  My point is that amongst NORMAL people, these types of anti-black thoughts DO NOT EXIST.  I grew up around tons of whites.  *We don't think like this, we don't talk like this.  I have NEVER heard white people say things against black people in ANY kind of social setting*.



Just b/c you have not witnessed it, is that supposed to make it true?


----------



## BeetleBug (Jun 27, 2010)

Sugar said:


> I'm almost afraid to ask what the stormfront website is...



Crazies to the point of being disturbed.


----------



## Twix (Jun 27, 2010)

BeetleBug said:


> Go to the stormfront website and you'll see plenty of white women and men voicing their thoughts.



So you take the thoughts of extremists as the word for the majority? And by the way, Stormfront is my favorite guilty pleasure, because I love to look into the minds of the deranged and see what their rationales are behind what they're so obstinate in believing.


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## Sugar (Jun 27, 2010)

EastClevelandK said:


> And again, what is ethnic hair?  Kinky?  Really?  Does that mean that black people are the only "ethnic" group?  I guess all of the Asian and Indian women are actually white if their hair is straight...



I'm fairly certain you already know that ethnic hair is a term that refers to Black people's hair.  Its an attempt to be PC.  

And no one said anything about Asian or Indian (East Asian) women being white.  But there are similarities in hair texture.


----------



## Sugar (Jun 27, 2010)

HappilyLiberal said:


> Aryan Nation...  don't bother!



Aaah...I see.  Nope won't be going over there.


----------



## nikolite (Jun 27, 2010)

EastClevelandK said:


> Beetle Bug, Go back and read the first few pages of this thread.  People were saying "smack the stupid out of white people", saying "watch her", like you can't be friends with a white person without being suspicious of them, like we are all sneaky undercover agents who seek to destroy black women.  Saying we all try to "act innocent", but really want to be praised for being white.  It is ridiculous.  We don't do any of this.  And those who think white women are talking bad about black women behind your backs or thinking all of these mean thoughts about people of varying skin colors are delusional.  They are victims of their own fears and insecurities and should not try to project those insecurities on another group of people.
> 
> ...
> 
> And again, what is ethnic hair? Kinky? Really? Does that mean that black people are the only "ethnic" group? I guess all of the Asian and Indian women are actually white if their hair is straight...



I don't think anyone said that ALL white people are like this or that none of them can be trusted.  But those who ask these types of questions do typically have ulterior motives as some posters pointed out.  I've been asked lots of "innocent" questions from some whites that they usually know the answers to but they sometimes seem to want you to just state the obvious.  That question came off that way, just like "why do ya'll put grease in your hair? To try to make it grow?" or "I thought ya'll didn't wash your hair?"  I've been asked those questions and the conversation usually ended on a bad note.  I've also heard "why do black people bleach their skin?" in an Africana studies course.  The answer is obvious and its quite irritating to keep having to play nice and answer them politely sometimes.  I don't think all whites ask these questions sneakily like that, but the OP's friend sounded that way.  

And "ethnic" hair is a silly term made up by non-blacks who don't quite want to say black (for fear of sounding un-PC) so they made up a retarded way to get around it.  Its similar to words like "exotic" or "Third World" or "nationality" that people throw around to say something without really saying.  I agree with you that its used completely incorrectly (Sicilians are an ethnic group).  But I'm not sure why its usage here bothers you though when its a very mainstream word these days (even if a stupid one).


----------



## BeetleBug (Jun 27, 2010)

Twix said:


> *So you take the thoughts of extremists as the word for the majority?* And by the way, Stormfront is my favorite guilty pleasure, because I love to look into the minds of the deranged and see what their rationales are behind what they're so obstinate in believing.



Of course not. She claimed that white people don't speak ill of black people so I just pointing out an example.  Maybe I should have used a better one.


----------



## LaFemmeNaturelle (Jun 27, 2010)

*CherryPie* said:


> I would say "Oh well" that's her.
> 
> I guess I'm just one of those people that doesn't take what others say about THEMSELVES personal. It wouldn't have anything to do with me.
> 
> ...


 

Why do you think it makes me angry? It makes me SAD when I can translate what a woman really means when I hear her talking about herself. It makes me especially sad when I hear children do it. I don't get mad and say oh so this ****** thinks me and my hair are ugly. I try to uplift that woman and that child. I used to volunteer with white girls at a community center in Detroit. And I repeatedly kept hearing the little black girls say that they wished their hair was like the white volunteers and they wish they were lighter. Did I get mad about it? No! I tried to convince them that they are beautiful. These are the same kids who will grow up thinking their skin color and hair is ugly if no one tells them otherwise. And people like that are the ones I was referring to. I don't take personal offense to any of it. I just call it like I see it. I could care less if someone wants to wear their hair straight, afro, bald, whatever! But I care when it stems from self-hatred and alot of it does. I think the problem is people are making this into a personal issue when others are trying to talk about it more generally.

ETA: I forgot to say that whenever the little girls made those comments, the white volunteers just laughed....which didn't make things better.


----------



## Sugar (Jun 27, 2010)

LoveisYou said:


> Ok in the effort to keep this discussion logical and not emotional and illogical, I will try this again, but I know whatever I say will probably be only understood by those who can reason with logic not by anyone who reads what they want into arguments because they lack emotional discipline and control.
> 
> Ok, so let's try this again.  I never said that a black woman who relaxes is an automatic self-hater, sigh.  Again, I wrote about the ways in which slavery and colonialism impacted out psyche including the ways that many blacks think about hair texture, sigh.  I had no idea your personal thoughts about your hair represented the majority of black ppl.  Forgive me, I was ignorant of that "fact."  Again as I've said before wach black woman's choice about her hair is personal, but that doesn't change the historical influences I spoke about.
> 
> If for any reason you feel attacked by the counter-arguments posters made to your arguments then that's your personal choice.  I apologize if my arguments hit a nerve, but I'm interested in an intelligent discussion not emotional e-tantrums.  We can agree to disagree with dignity, but then again as I've said before only the reasonable will understand that.



 and


----------



## Miss*Tress (Jun 27, 2010)

@ EastClevelandK Aren't you veering off-topic? I'd hate for the mods to close this thread because posters get waylaid by the accusations of hatred. Why not start a new thread with reference to the posts you find hateful?

Note to mods: Apologies if I've overstepped - let me know and I'll delete this post.


----------



## Twix (Jun 27, 2010)

BeetleBug said:


> Of course not. She claimed that white people don't speak ill of black people so I just pointing out an example.  Maybe I should have used a better one.



Yeah. It'd be like a white person using Black Panther party materials to say that "see?! All black people hate white people!", etc. and so forth.


----------



## ~Sparklingflame~ (Jun 27, 2010)

EastClevelandK said:


> skegeesmb,
> 
> I am white.  I grew up in a 99% white school system.*  I know for a fact that we don't talk about black people behind your backs because I have been around 100% white groups of people MANY TIMES and we don't do this.  In my whole life, THIS HAS NEVER HAPPENED.  If someone ever tried to do that, they would be labeled a social outcast.  It is not considered socially acceptable behavior.*  Period.


Unfortunatley, this does not apply to MOST white people. I am almost 100% sure that nothing that we say in this or any other thread will get you to understand any of what we say or what we feel.


----------



## Twix (Jun 27, 2010)

Miss*Tress said:


> @ EastClevelandK Aren't you veering off-topic? I'd hate for the mods to close this thread because posters get waylaid by the accusations of hatred. Why not start a new thread with reference to the posts you find hateful?
> 
> Note to mods: Apologies if I've overstepped - let me know and I'll delete this post.



A lot of this thread has veered off topic, y0. And there were accusations of naturals expressing hatred or disdain for relaxed heads/straighteners. I think for the context of the conversation the post is in the correct place.


----------



## nikolite (Jun 27, 2010)

Sugar said:


> I'm almost afraid to ask what the stormfront website is...



Please don't.  Its truly painful to read and sadly pretty popular too.


----------



## nikolite (Jun 27, 2010)

EastClevelandK said:


> Beetlebug,
> 
> I am certainly not going to go visit some website that likely serves as a forum for mentally deranged people.  (BTW- I am sure I could find similar websites against whites, blacks, Jews, Asians, and ANY group)  There are always going to be sick, weird people in the world.  My point is that amongst NORMAL people, these types of anti-black thoughts DO NOT EXIST.  I grew up around tons of whites.  We don't think like this, we don't talk like this.  I have NEVER heard white people say things against black people in ANY kind of social setting.



Good for you!  But a white friend of mine with your exact same background has told me the exact opposite of what you are saying.  Why do you think you can somehow speak for an entire race of people and say "We are not racist towards you guys anymore.  Believe me, I know because I'm white and have been around all other whites" and then call it a day?  I'm not sure what you are getting at here.  

Anti-black thoughts DO exist and so do anti-white thoughts.  But back to this thread, I'm still not sure what it is that you see that is so anti-white.  This is completely derailing the topic at hand and for what I still don't know.


----------



## LovelyNaps26 (Jun 27, 2010)

BlackMasterPiece said:


> Black women on a whole prefer straight hair because most Black women are still very much psychologically colonized.
> 
> We are inundated with images of straight haired women being the feminine ideal from infancy in this country and it has a tremendous impact when you were born with afro textured hair. These women in the media are mostly white  and the few Blacks are relaxed or weaved up. It is *not* just a coincidence that over 75% of Black women drastically and permanently alter their hair to be type 1-3. There are millions of black women that will spend every dime of their paycheck regularly for some weave and go on and on bragging about the fact that they are now in ownership of some Asian/Indian hair and gush over the innate beauty and superiority of this hair....its all over youtube....and it just goes to show you the premium we put of hair types that are the exact opposite of ours.
> 
> ...





BlackMasterPiece said:


> Its uncomfortable to do, but sometimes we have to sit down, be still, and ask ourselves why it is that we do what we do.
> 
> WHY is straight hair preferred over 75% of the time by Black Women to the hair that grows out of our heads?
> 
> ...




goodpost:

You ain't neva lied BMP. You ain't neva lied.


----------



## NYDee (Jun 27, 2010)

I know how the fad about tanning came about but if it were black people sitting in the sun to get lighter (in a world where sun makes the skin lighter) no matter what the reason, there would have been non-stop talk about self hate and how the black people doing are doing it because they want to look white. The main thing is whatever the reason that led to the fad; white people don't get accused of trying be black or brown. Some who chose not to tan don't accuse those that tan about selling out.




lovegymnasts said:


> Actually there is a reason behind this also.
> People used to cover themselves up and want to be as white as possible to show that they were affluent enough to not have to work outdoors or in the fields.
> Currently, people want to be tanned to show that they are affluent enough to take vacations and have free time instead of working all the time and being stuck in an office.
> 
> As everyone has said, do what you want to do and there is no shame in that but there is no crime in acknowledging the reasons behind our actions.


----------



## Twix (Jun 27, 2010)

preciouslove0x said:


> Please don't shoot at me. Just curious.
> 
> 
> Have you ever heard a YT woman say that they prefer kinky textured hair? I ask because I was talking to one of my YT best friends earlier today about the subject. She asked me why so many blacks prefer straight hair (we're extremely close so we talk about everything under the sun, in other words I took no offense). Is it because "they are able to achieve it" and if they couldn't, like YT people can't achieve kinky hair, "would they still prefer it?"  What are your thoughts? I never thought about it before and don't have an opinion just yet. I do personally prefer straight hair (so obviously that's not why I went natural). But would we prefer it if we couldn't achieve it?
> ...



I forgot to mention, in reference to the first post: there is a chemical that allows people with straight hair to get kinky hair. I've seen either the Japanese or the Koreans use it... hold on...


----------



## Strangefruittree (Jun 27, 2010)

EastClevelandK said:


> Beetle Bug, Go back and read the first few pages of this thread. People were saying "smack the stupid out of white people", saying "watch her", like you can't be friends with a white person without being suspicious of them, like we are all sneaky undercover agents who seek to destroy black women. Saying we all try to "act innocent", but really want to be praised for being white. It is ridiculous. We don't do any of this. And those who think white women are talking bad about black women behind your backs or thinking all of these mean thoughts about people of varying skin colors are delusional. They are victims of their own fears and insecurities and should not try to project those insecurities on another group of people.


 

i understand where you are comming from.  when the need to represent a large group of people arises, or when sweeping statements are made... someone is going to be wrong and feelings get hurt. I hate when i see it too. Thats why when I say IMO, or for me.... cause i know i dont rep all black women, as you probably dont rep all white women... I have met people from other races that bond to my soul like we come from the same mother, I have met black people that i have absolutely nothing in common with. I wont front. I see stuff on here ALL THE TIME that makes me cringe when it comes to talk of other races, as if because of the history of oppression it makes it okay to voice or even feel the feelings... I also read and see on the internet and real life some reasons why. White women do group up and say awful things too. I have had white family members, people responsible for my DNA make up say some horrid things to me about the way my hair and skin are, sometimes not even on purpose, just out of ignorance, sometimes to hurt me. It comes from everywhere. I choose not to perpetuate it. I try to knock it down when i see it- not let others around me foster mean spirited feelings. but its hard. The begining is to end sweeping statements. the question, why do black women prefer straight hair...has a billion answers but the most unforunate one is, because its the standard. which for many of us is opposite of nature. The same sounds true for you and many other non blacks with kinky curly hair. There is a frustration with trying to be considered successful and assimilate, which can become a life style of frustration, IMO. 
Again i feel what your saying, its best to not speak for groups, because groups that look like me may not be reflecting what i feel


----------



## Sounique (Jun 27, 2010)

nikolite said:


> Honestly, my comments were not directed solely towards you, but yes, I was irritated with the constant misinterpretations of the posts made here.  I'm not sure if some are not reading the whole thread or are just purposefully ignoring what I and others have explained already and repeating the same WRONG interpretations of what we are saying.  I am a spokesperson for myself as a natural whose views you incorrectly summarized, which is why I spoke.
> 
> Relaxing is permanent because you have to either cut off or transition for a while to get rid of relaxed hair.  If it ain't completely permament (on that note, neither is a nose job because it can be re-done) then its definitely a drastic change that is damn near permanent.
> 
> ...



Naturally, since YOU quoted MY  post, then yes I felt as YOU were directing your comments at me.

Why are you so angry that not everyone agrees with you anyone? You seem to be on a rampage. 

So you feel like "A", I feel like "B" and "they" feel like X,Y,Z.

Now what? It shouldn't turn into the war of the roses.

A house divided will fall.

This is the real issue with bw. There's too much division among our own race. 

SMDH


----------



## Strangefruittree (Jun 27, 2010)

oh and I wear my hair straight sometimes cause I can and I look cute. Rachel Roy has many white models in her recent shows with big teased roller sets and froishstyles and they look DOPE!!! I love my music and art festivals and some of the most BEAUTIFUL women of ALL cultures come out and I see all kinds of natural looks. And many many many women have natural curly wavy textured hair. If in LA come to the sunset junction in august and look for yourself. Some are not natural and rock the hell out of the styles and inspire me....


----------



## LatterGlory (Jun 27, 2010)

Freedom is a beautiful thing, but freedom without boundaries will lead to pure chaos.

1Co 6:12  All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.


----------



## arosieworld (Jun 27, 2010)

Sugar said:


> In the Midwest...and alas, I spent most of my time in church so there was very little time for BET.  Nor would I have been allowed to watch anything other than Teen Summit as secular music was off limits.  But between church, school...and the mall (when I could escape) I was always around people.
> 
> I still haven't even seen half the episodes of In Living Color



I am beginning to think that where you were raised has something to do with how you view this. (This is just my opinion and its still just a theory)
I think its where you grew up and when you grew up that effects your perspective. I also grew up in the mid-west with strict parents and went to a diverse church where we spent most of our time.
I also haven't see very many In Living Colors but Living Single I could recite those word for word.


----------



## BostonMaria (Jun 27, 2010)

... and to think I was just about to answer the original question

Never mind! Carry on ladies! LOL  Back to the pregnancy forum


----------



## NaturalPath (Jun 27, 2010)

Why are we even still discussing this topic.

Black women prefer their hair straight because maybe they just damn well prefer it to be this way. Whether or not they think it gets them higher on the social ladder, more manageability, or maybe because they believe it looks better on them its their preference.

I just dont understand why there ALWAYS seems to be variations of the same topic discussed so many different ways.

Geeze yall dont even know how to debate without all of this


----------



## Poohbear (Jun 27, 2010)

I remember buying something at a store in the mall, and I was wearing my hair in a shrunken coily fro. And a couple of white women said, "You're hair is pretty. I wish more African-Americans would wear their hair that way instead of straight." I didn't entertain or feed into the comment; I just said, "thanks" and left after making my purchase.


----------



## sylver2 (Jun 27, 2010)




----------



## princessnad (Jun 27, 2010)

lizelies said:


> I saw a special on attraction on TLC or DISC a few months back and they were talking about hair color and length and sexual attraction. One theory for the dying of hair lighter is that a lot of yt children have light hair when born and then it grows in darker. So light hair would = youth and fertility at first glance to men. Same as long hair, perky boobs, and higher voice = youth and fertility.
> 
> I think we are a product of our society but it's not as black and white as colonization and slavery being the main reasons a large number of black women relax.



I wonder if blacks would be able to say the same thing about looser textured hair since newborns tend to have loser, silkier curls.



EastClevelandK said:


> Wow.  I must be really naive.
> 
> As a white woman who teaches in a 100% black community (for many years), I have only had good experiences.  I love my students and they love me, their parents are nice, and I count many of my "co-teachers" (who are all black) among my dearest friends.
> 
> ...





EastClevelandK said:


> Beetlebug,
> 
> I am certainly not going to go visit some website that likely serves as a forum for mentally deranged people.  (BTW- I am sure I could find similar websites against whites, blacks, Jews, Asians, and ANY group)  There are always going to be sick, weird people in the world.  My point is that amongst NORMAL people, these types of anti-black thoughts DO NOT EXIST.  I grew up around tons of whites.  We don't think like this, we don't talk like this.  I have NEVER heard white people say things against black people in ANY kind of social setting.



  WTH are you talking about?  This thread isn't about you or anti-whiteness.  Is it ok for something to not be about you?  This thread is about the psyche of black women as it relates to OUR hair.


----------



## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Jun 27, 2010)

Girl, good day.  I said good day!


----------



## Arcadian (Jun 27, 2010)

I now understand what 'ratchet' means.


-A


----------



## CherryCherryBoomBoom (Jun 27, 2010)

It's threads like these that make me feel a bit guilty and bad for relaxing my hair


----------



## N.P.R. Addict (Jun 27, 2010)

EastClevelandK said:


> skegeesmb,
> 
> I am white.  I grew up in a 99% white school system.  I know for a fact that we don't talk about black people behind your backs because I have been around 100% white groups of people MANY TIMES and we don't do this.  In my whole life, THIS HAS NEVER HAPPENED.  If someone ever tried to do that, they would be labeled a social outcast.  It is not considered socially acceptable behavior.  Period.



That may be true for your social circle but there are many corners of America where your reality is the farthest thing from the truth of white America.


----------



## DDTexlaxed (Jun 27, 2010)

CherryCherryBoomBoom said:


> It's threads like these that make me feel a bit guilty and bad for relaxing my hair



Nah, girl. It's the people who try to make you feel guilty who have the problem.   It keeps people divided and it really should stop. It's creating animosity.


----------



## honeycomb719 (Jun 27, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> I remember buying something at a store in the mall, and I was wearing my hair in a shrunken coily fro. And a couple of white women said, "You're hair is pretty. I wish more African-Americans would wear their hair that way instead of straight." I didn't entertain or feed into the comment; I just said, "thanks" and left after making my purchase.



Lol, but honestly from *MPOV *not every AA can pull this look off without looking like an xtra from the cast of Roots. ***Dont Stone me yall***

ETA: Or maybe I shouldve used Good Times as a more modern example!


----------



## lovegymnasts (Jun 27, 2010)

CherryCherryBoomBoom said:


> It's threads like these that make me feel a bit guilty and bad for relaxing my hair



I don't think you should. We each do what is best for us.
I agree with most of the posts about why most black women relax but that does not mean I am anti-relaxer.
I relax both of my sisters' hair and my aunt's hair. I do it because it is their personal choice regarding what they do to their hair. I definitely know that my aunt wants her hair relaxed because of some of the reasons stated (she's made the statements) but that does not mean that I would refuse to do as she wishes or put her down because of it.
Ultimately, it is each individual's choice and we should feel good about our choices but that does not mean we can not discuss the reason behind a cultural choice.


----------



## Lenee925 (Jun 27, 2010)




----------



## Sugar (Jun 27, 2010)

arosieworld said:


> I am beginning to think that where you were raised has something to do with how you view this. (This is just my opinion and its still just a theory)
> I think its where you grew up and when you grew up that effects your perspective. I also grew up in the mid-west with strict parents and went to a diverse church where we spent most of our time.
> I also haven't see very many In Living Colors but Living Single I could recite those word for word.



You just might be on to something with that theory...


----------



## LovingLady (Jun 27, 2010)

CherryCherryBoomBoom said:


> It's threads like these that make me feel a bit guilty and bad for relaxing my hair



Please don't feel bad. If it is something that you want to do then go for it, just be aware of the history behind it.


----------



## BeetleBug (Jun 27, 2010)

honeycomb719 said:


> Lol, but honestly from *MPOV *not every AA can pull this look off without looking like an xtra from the cast of Roots. ***Dont Stone me yall***
> 
> ETA: Or maybe I shouldve used Good Times as a more modern example!


----------



## Mortons (Jun 27, 2010)

honeycomb719 said:


> Lol, but honestly from *MPOV *not every AA can pull this look off without looking like an xtra from the cast of Roots. ***Dont Stone me yall***
> 
> ETA: Or maybe I shouldve used Good Times as a more modern example!



I think most black women would look great with their natural texture but lots haven't even tried.


----------



## N.P.R. Addict (Jun 27, 2010)

kmn1980 said:


> When my kids get old enough to ask, I'm going to give them the same type of explanation only mine will include the terms "*original*" and "*recessive*" .



Me too!


----------



## N.P.R. Addict (Jun 27, 2010)

honeycomb719 said:


> Lol, but honestly from *MPOV *not every AA can pull this look off without looking like an xtra from the cast of Roots. ***Dont Stone me yall***
> 
> ETA: Or maybe I shouldve used Good Times as a more modern example!




I always thought Kizzie's short round afro was cute!  So was Thelma's.  

#kanyeshrug (I have been meaning to use that)


----------



## Lenee925 (Jun 27, 2010)

honeycomb719 said:


> Lol, but honestly from *MPOV *not every AA can pull this look off without looking like an xtra from the cast of Roots. ***Dont Stone me yall***
> 
> ETA: Or maybe I shouldve used Good Times as a more modern example!


----------



## lane (Jun 27, 2010)

These threads are truly amazing! Maybe someone will post a question posed to them by their white friend that questions why so many black women are overweight.  Heck, we might really start to to analyze our more serious issues/concerns. Crazy how still have conversations about what other people are curious about.


----------



## nappystorm (Jun 27, 2010)

honeycomb719 said:


> Lol, but honestly from *MPOV not every AA can pull this look off without looking like an xtra from the cast of Roots*. ***Dont Stone me yall***
> 
> ETA: Or maybe I shouldve used Good Times as a more modern example!


 erplexed


 GIFSoup


----------



## honeycomb719 (Jun 27, 2010)

Mortons said:


> I think most black women would look great with their natural texture but lots haven't even tried.



This is true, no dispute to that point! I know my comment is a bit harsh, but I can think or quite a few folks in my social circle and family that wouldnt look flattering with an Afro. But, Im sure my perception is skewed to what _*MY*_ ideas of flattering hairstyles are. Thats not to say I dont LOVE looking at the naturals here on LHCF cause just about all Ive seen wear the "natural" look VERY WELL.... I'm even back on the natural wagon. 
I can honestly say I feel like Im  not one of those that pull "the look" off well, but Im opening to trying it once again. Everyone have there reasons why they like str8 hair or natural, its all about doing you which I advocate.


----------



## lovegymnasts (Jun 27, 2010)

lane said:


> These threads are truly amazing! Maybe someone will post a question posed to them by their white friend that questions why so many black women are overweight.  Heck, we might really start to to analyze our more serious issues/concerns. Crazy how still have conversations about what other people are curious about.



Well...
These kinds of questions are the basis for sociology, anthropology, archeology, psychology, etc.
I actually enjoy them but that's just me.


----------



## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Jun 27, 2010)

CherryCherryBoomBoom said:


> It's threads like these that make me feel a bit guilty and bad for relaxing my hair


 
You shouldn't feel guilty....


----------



## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Jun 27, 2010)

honeycomb719 said:


> Lol, but honestly from *MPOV *not every AA can pull this look off without looking like an xtra from the cast of Roots. ***Dont Stone me yall***
> 
> ETA: Or maybe I shouldve used Good Times as a more modern example!


 
Honeycomb, this is exactly the point of this thread.


----------



## Harina (Jun 27, 2010)

princessnad said:


> I wonder if blacks would be able to say the same thing about looser textured hair since newborns tend to have loser, silkier curls.
> 
> .




I would be really disturbed if this was true because white people's hair color often changes when they are a bit older looking, like 7-13 (still a weird age for people to be scoping like that). That pre-puberty stage, not when they are 10-weeks. That ultramoisturized, ultranourished silky looking hair doesn't last long for us with the more cottony 4a-4b types, which is what a good chunk of us have. My hair was very silky when I was born but I can tell you it surely is not now. No ma'am. So If someone is looking to the newborns to what should be attractive for reproduction, that is really weird. Just my opinion. And I do think that most of this is colonization, slavery, globalization, because I don't know if anyone noticed but Africans were doing just dandy with meeting the opposite sex and procreating before they were told what's cute and what's not.


----------



## nappystorm (Jun 27, 2010)

*clears throat*
Now who was that who said she has never heard someone say something negative about natural hair??


----------



## BEAUTYU2U (Jun 27, 2010)

OK, I sooooo wasn't gonna comment but ... really? What is "the look" that all AA can't pull off? Looking like THEMSELVES? If it grows out of your scalp - regardless of texture, length, or color - it's your look.

*leaves to scratch head*


----------



## honeycomb719 (Jun 27, 2010)

LOL, I knew when I posted my opinion wasnt the popular one, but hey its mine. I own it!


----------



## Bint Yusef (Jun 27, 2010)

honeycomb719 said:


> LOL, I knew when I posted my opinion wasnt the popular one, but hey its mine. I own it!


I actually think its quite popular or else this debate wouldn't be going on, no?


----------



## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Jun 27, 2010)

honeycomb719 said:


> LOL, I knew when I posted my opinion wasnt the popular one, but hey its mine. I own it!


 
I guess i should have been more clear.  Really what i meant is that your answer is why many blacks prefer straight hair.  The mindset of a certain type of hair is very negative to many in society for one reason or another.  I'm not saying the reasoning is right or wrong in this post since the reasons are varied but when it's all said and done I think it's sad on a huge level.


----------



## honeycomb719 (Jun 27, 2010)

BEAUTYU2U said:


> OK, I sooooo wasn't gonna comment but ... really? What is "the look" that all AA can't pull off? Looking like THEMSELVES? If it grows out of your scalp - regardless of texture, length, or color - it's your look.
> 
> *leaves the scratch head*



The look Im speaking of is wearing your have naturally...I thought that was made clear in the OP. If I was speaking in a thread about relaxing and I mentioned "the look" I can only hope that the readers would make the correlation of "the look" pertaining to relaxed hair styling...


----------



## Kash (Jun 27, 2010)

Mortons said:


> I think most black women would look great with their natural texture but lots haven't even tried.


 
thank you! to you youngsters reading this thread....please know that your natural hair is beautiful in its natural state and not 'slave like'.


----------



## BEAUTYU2U (Jun 27, 2010)

honeycomb719 said:


> LOL, I knew when I posted my opinion wasnt the popular one, but hey its mine. I own it!



It certainly is. I'm not questioning that at all.


----------



## VictoriousBrownFlower (Jun 27, 2010)

Ok I've since changed my mind about some things. Maybe it does run deeper for some then I thought. I will still stand on my stance that not all aa women feel this way but I guess more than I was willing to see do secretly harbor those feelings...


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## honeycomb719 (Jun 27, 2010)

Bint Yusef said:


> I actually think its quite popular or else this debate wouldn't be going on, no?



Yeah, but I havent read the whole thread to see if someone has stated that POV in the manner I did. Which, Im sure some others made feel the same way, but was just expressed in a different manner.


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## BEAUTYU2U (Jun 27, 2010)

honeycomb719 said:


> The look Im speaking of wearing your have naturally...I thought that was made clear in the OP. If I was speaking in a thread about relaxing and I mentioned "the look" I can only hope that the readers would make the correlation of "the look" pertaining to relaxed hair styling...



I know you meant natural hair. I'm going a little deeper into the meaning than you are.


----------



## Bint Yusef (Jun 27, 2010)

honeycomb719 said:


> Yeah, but I havent read the whole thread to see if someone has stated that POV in the manner I did. Which, Im sure some others made feel the same way, but was just expressed in a different manner.


I think that your opinion is popular amongst black women, not necessarily in this thread but I havent read the entire thread either. But since most black women are not natural it serves to conclude that many agree with you in some form. 

I just personally dont understand how someone can think that only certain people are capable of wearing their natural hair. What exactly determines who can pull off the look if you dont mind me asking? Also are you working under the assumption that there is only one look? I mean you can be natural and never wear an afro being that an afro is merely a natural style and not the totality of natural hair. There are infinite possibilities and looks that each one of us are capable of defining for our own natural hair. Which is why I dont understand how one cannot pull off "the look".


----------



## Miss*Tress (Jun 27, 2010)

And the winner is... 





honeycomb719 said:


> Lol, but honestly from *MPOV *not every AA can pull this look off without looking like an xtra from the cast of Roots. ***Dont Stone me yall***
> 
> ETA: Or maybe I shouldve used Good Times as a more modern example!


You hit the nail on the head and it *is* a popular opinion that many have been skirting around and saying in not so many words.


----------



## honeycomb719 (Jun 27, 2010)

Kash said:


> thank you! to you youngsters reading this thread....please know that your natural hair is beautiful in its natural state and not *'slave like'*.



The bolded is exactly why I edited my post cuz I knew someone would go there with the slave generation. Anyone reading these post shouldnt put more into it than whats there! Im not knocking naturals at all. Im natural myself, But I prefer not to go strutting around with my TWA in public cuz that look doesnt fit my taste.
Yes, some might like Kizzies look, or Florida Evans to me thats wasnt very flattering for those two.... But that not to say I dont think the same look isnt well suited for Eryrak B or Indie Arie. Some "the look" looks well on, some it dont IMO!


----------



## chrisanddonniesmommy (Jun 27, 2010)

EastClevelandK said:


> Wow.  I must be really naive.
> 
> As a white woman who teaches in a 100% black community (for many years), I have only had good experiences.  I love my students and they love me, their parents are nice, and I count many of my "co-teachers" (who are all black) among my dearest friends.
> 
> ...



Either it's naivete or being full of it. Thanks for playing.


----------



## nikolite (Jun 27, 2010)

Funny, I've never heard someone say that a black woman just doesn't look good with straight hair or can't pull of the straight look.  Its like straight is always the default and nappy is an option that might or might not work (translation: depending on how "good" or "bad" the hair is).


----------



## BostonMaria (Jun 27, 2010)

EastClevelandK said:


> Wow.  I must be really naive.
> 
> As a white woman who teaches in a 100% black community (for many years), I have only had good experiences.  I love my students and they love me, their parents are nice, and I count many of my "co-teachers" (who are all black) among my dearest friends.
> 
> ...



First of all *welcome*. May I ask what you're doing on this forum with a bunch of women of color?  I am not asking to be rude, just a legitimate question since this is your first post and you kinda came out of no where.

I am from Boston and I have tons of friends from different colors and backgrounds.  My best friend is white (sounds cliche i know). Boston is known for its *diversity*, BUT unfortunately its also known for its racism.  Racism does exist, wish it didn't.  Maybe if you went to a 70% white high school with more diversity you'd encounter more of the truth.  When I used to go to a 100% Dominican school down in the Dominican Republic we didn't talk about racism because we were all the same.


----------



## nikolite (Jun 27, 2010)

Riverrock said:


> I would be really disturbed if this was true because white people's hair color often changes when they are a bit older looking, like 7-13 (still a weird age for people to be scoping like that). That pre-puberty stage, not when they are 10-weeks. That ultramoisturized, ultranourished silky looking hair doesn't last long for us with the more cottony 4a-4b types, which is what a good chunk of us have. My hair was very silky when I was born but I can tell you it surely is not now. No ma'am. *So If someone is looking to the newborns to what should be attractive for reproduction, that is really weird.* Just my opinion. And I do think that most of this is colonization, slavery, globalization, because I don't know if anyone noticed but Africans were doing just dandy with meeting the opposite sex and procreating before they were told what's cute and what's not.



Not just weird but sick and perverted.  I think sometimes people take the "youth and fertility" standards of beauty a little too far.  These theories imply that men secretly want to sleep with young girls who are like 6 or 7, since most grown women don't fit descriptions of what people supposedly find beautiful.


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## honeycomb719 (Jun 27, 2010)

BEAUTYU2U said:


> I know you meant natural hair. I'm going a little deeper into the meaning than you are.



So in this instance you talking about apples, while I was talking about oranges, OK! Originally it came off as you was knocking my comment when you asked what "look" I was talkin about...


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## lovegymnasts (Jun 27, 2010)

nikolite said:


> Funny, I've never heard someone say that a black woman just doesn't look good with straight hair or can't pull off the straight look.  Its like straight is always the default and nappy is an option that might or might not work (translation: depending on how "good" or "bad" the hair is).



Dang good point and so true


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## BEAUTYU2U (Jun 27, 2010)

honeycomb719 said:


> So in this instance you talking about apples, while I was talking about oranges, OK! Originally it came off as you was knocking my comment when you asked what "look" I was talkin about...



erplexed Bye.


----------



## kmn1980 (Jun 27, 2010)

EastClevelandK said:


> As a white woman...



*When you can show us where* your people were stolen from their land, brought over here to work for free for 4 centuries, raped, separated from their families, lynched for no reason, told you were ugly, had your hair called "dreadful", made to change your religion, not keep your own name, not speak your own language, not allowed to learn to read, not allowed to marry, were made to cover your head after you had been freed because your oppressors said your hair is offensive (research Ante-Bellum law), etc...

*AND, after you built this country on your back*

you weren't allowed to vote, go to school where you want, live where you want, eat where you want, have limited use of PUBLIC transportation, still getting lynched for no reason, churches burned, dogs turned against you. waterhoses put on your children, etc..

*which ends up facilitating an atmosphere where*

no matter how smart you are, how educated you are, how talented you are, etc..

you are still expected to jump through hurdles to get to the same place that the children of the oppressors (who may or may not be as capable as you) can casually walk to...

*AND*

the country that your ancestors built on their backs, gave most of their ingenuity to in the form of both primitive and modern inventions (like the cell phone) to make both your life and the life of your oppressors easier...

*THEN*

tells you that you aren't even important enough to have your TRUE story put into the history books for generations to come to know the truth about who you are, tells you through television and print that you are an insignificant part of the collective like a shrub or a bush, 

*THEN*

 talk to us about how friendly of a white person you and your friends are.

*Do not* talk about Black experience, because you are not Black. I don't care if you have 56z hair. You are not Black, have never been Black, will never be Black, and you have benefited in one way or another from the systemic racism of this country. 

I could go on but I'm sure you get the message:

*Don't make yourself a mascot. *

*Every time.*..every single time, they come into targeted sites and start with the race-baiting and I'm sick of it.

We were having a conversation basically about slave psychology in relation to OUR hair and here comes the troll bringing up something TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to the conversation. 

What kills me more, is that you have people here giving her props for the completely baseless $hit she's spouting. 

*Here's what's better* (and proves she's a mascot): she came in here spouting that same Kum Bah Yah/ I'm not like that/ I have Black friends stuff that they all spout when they hear the truth and feel indicted. Her whiteness shows because *she* feels that since *she* didn't do it and allegedly doesn't know anyone else who is *her* definition of "racist" that we coloreds must be delusional and overly-sensitive. 

*So her experience is the only one that is valid and that counts for something.*

To the *brown* people on the board: sound familiar?

Bad news for you East Cleveland, *racism is not just people not liking you because of race.* Go back to the beginning of this post and re-read if you're still confused. Your friends have already told off on you. Start reading... start with Tim Wise, Molly Secours,  and then keep going. 

I'll leave you with some Robert Jensen, *a white guy,* who authored a book entitled "The Heart of Whiteness". It goes like this:

"*It may seem self-indulgent to talk about  the fears of white people in a white-supremacist society. After all,  what do white people really have to be afraid of in a world structured  on white privilege? It may be self-indulgent, but it's critical to  understand because these fears are part of what keeps many white people  from confronting ourselves and the system.*

*The first, and perhaps most crucial, fear is that of facing the fact  that some of what we white people have is unearned.* It's a truism  that we don't really make it on our own; we all have plenty of help to  achieve whatever we achieve. *That means that some of what we have is  the product of the work of others, distributed unevenly across society,  over which we may have little or no control individually.* No matter  how hard we work or how smart we are, we all know -- when we are honest  with ourselves -- that we did not get where we are by merit alone. And  many white people are afraid of that fact. 

*A second fear is crasser: White people's fear of losing what we have  -- literally the fear of losing things we own if at some point the  economic, political, and social systems in which we live become more  just and equitable.* That fear is not completely irrational; if white  privilege -- along with the other kinds of privilege many of us have  living in the middle class and above in an imperialist country that  dominates much of the rest of the world -- were to evaporate, the  distribution of resources in the United States and in the world would  change, and that would be a good thing. We would have less. That  redistribution of wealth would be fairer and more just. But in a world  in which people have become used to affluence and material comfort, that  possibility can be scary. 

*A third fear involves a slightly different scenario -- a world in  which non-white people might someday gain the kind of power over whites  that whites have long monopolized. *One hears this constantly in the  conversation about immigration, the lingering fear that somehow "they"  (meaning not just Mexican-Americans and Latinos more generally, but any  non-white immigrants) are going to keep moving to this country and at  some point become the majority demographically. Even though whites  likely can maintain a disproportionate share of wealth, those numbers  will eventually translate into political, economic, and cultural power.  And then what? Many whites fear that the result won't be a system that  is more just, but a system in which white people become the minority and  could be treated as whites have long treated non-whites. This is  perhaps the deepest fear that lives in the heart  of whiteness. It is not really a fear of  non-white people. *It's a fear of the depravity  that lives in our own hearts: Are non-white people capable of doing to  us the barbaric things we have done to them?*


*A final fear has probably always haunted white people but has become  more powerful since the society has formally rejected overt racism: The  fear of being seen, and seen-through, by non-white people.* *Virtually  every white person I know, including white people fighting for racial  justice and including myself, carries some level of racism in our minds  and hearts and bodies. In our heads, we can pretend to eliminate it, but  most of us know it is there.* And because we are all supposed to be  appropriately anti-racist, we carry that lingering racism with a new  kind of fear: What if non-white people look at us and can see it? What  if they can see through us? What if they can look past our anti-racist  vocabulary and sense that we still don't really know how to treat them  as equals? What if they know about us what we don't dare know about  ourselves? What if they can see what we can't even voice?

I work in a large university with a stated commitment to racial justice.  All of my faculty colleagues, even the most reactionary, have a stated  commitment to racial justice. And yet the fear is palpable. 

It is a fear I have struggled with, and I remember the first time I ever  articulated that fear in public. I was on a panel with several other  professors at the University of Texas discussing race and politics in  the O.J. Simpson case. Next to me was an African American professor. I  was talking about media; he was talking about the culture's treatment of  the sexuality of black men. As we talked, I paid attention to what was  happening in me as I sat next to him. I felt uneasy. I had no reason to  be uncomfortable around him, but I wasn't completely comfortable. During  the question-and-answer period -- I don't remember what question  sparked my comment -- I turned to him and said something like, "It's  important to talk about what really goes on between black and white  people in this country. For instance, why am I feeling afraid of you? I  know I have no reason to be afraid, but I am. Why is that?" 

My reaction wasn't a crude physical fear, not some remnant of being  taught that black men are dangerous (though I have had such reactions to  black men on the street in certain circumstances). Instead, I think it  was that fear of being seen through by non-white people, especially when  we are talking about race. In that particular moment, for a white  academic on an O.J. panel, my fear was of being exposed as a fraud or  some kind of closet racist. Even if I thought I knew what I was talking  about and was being appropriately anti-racist in my analysis, I was  afraid that some lingering trace of racism would show through, and that  my black colleague would identify it for all in the room to see. After I  publicly recognized the fear, I think I started to let go of some of  it. Like anything, it's a struggle. I can see ways in which I have made  progress. I can see that in many situations I speak more freely and  honestly as I let go of the fear. I make mistakes, but as I become less  terrified of making mistakes I find that I can trust my instincts more  and be more open to critique when my instincts are wrong.         "

*I'm done with this one. 
*


----------



## honeycomb719 (Jun 27, 2010)

Bint Yusef said:


> I think that your opinion is popular amongst black women, not necessarily in this thread but I havent read the entire thread either. But since most black women are not natural it serves to conclude that many agree with you in some form.
> 
> I just personally dont understand how someone can think that only certain people are capable of wearing their natural hair. What exactly determines who can pull off the look if you dont mind me asking? What determines that is ones own personal preference and what they feel looks good on them . Also are you working under the assumption that there is only one look?  No, not at all.I mean you can be natural and never wear an afro being that an afro is merely a natural style and not the totality of natural hair. I understand that, I didnt mean to give the impression that speaking of the "natural look" was just afros. Not my intention at all. There are infinite possibilities and looks that each one of us are capable of defining for our own natural hair. Which is why I dont understand how one cannot pull off "the look". Some like to where style or looks that dont fit their personality. Meaning, if you trying to pull off the look of Bohemian chic and your demeanor, attitude, lifestyle is Urban Miss. I feel its a mismatch in attire and the individual.



My answers are in purple.


----------



## honeycomb719 (Jun 27, 2010)

nikolite said:


> Funny, I've never heard someone say that a black woman just doesn't look good with straight hair or can't pull of the straight look.  Its like straight is always the default and nappy is an option that might or might not work (translation: depending on how "good" or "bad" the hair is).



And this is why threads get thrown OT most times. If asked, I can attest to many women who should not try to pull of the bone str8 hair either, but thats not what we are discussing in this thread.. Nor did I say those words! I dont like it being put in my mouth (or insuinuated) that I believe that nonsense either.


----------



## N.P.R. Addict (Jun 27, 2010)

nikolite said:


> Funny, I've never heard someone say that a black woman just doesn't look good with straight hair or can't pull of the straight look.  Its like straight is always the default and nappy is an option that might or might not work (translation: depending on how "good" or "bad" the hair is).



Exactly!  Also, no one ever says some black men can not pull off natural hair.


----------



## Lenee925 (Jun 27, 2010)

honeycomb719 said:


> The bolded is exactly why I edited my post cuz I knew someone would go there with the slave generation. Anyone reading these post shouldnt put more into it than whats there! Im not knocking naturals at all. Im natural myself, But I prefer not to go strutting around with my TWA in public cuz that look doesnt fit my taste.
> Yes, some might like Kizzies look, or Florida Evans to me thats wasnt very flattering for those two.... But that not to say I dont think the same look isnt well suited for Eryrak B or Indie Arie. Some "the look" looks well on, some it dont IMO!


 
/devil'sadvocate 

Not that your opinion needs defending, but I think I get what you are saying. Maybe if Kizzie had at least detangled, juiced and threw on a cute headband, she would have looked alright? In the movie it did look really matted. Stop me if I'm reaching here..


----------



## Mareeღ (Jun 27, 2010)

honeycomb719 said:


> Lol, but honestly from *MPOV *not every AA can pull this look off without looking like an xtra from the cast of Roots. ***Dont Stone me yall***
> 
> ETA: Or maybe I shouldve used Good Times as a more modern example!




I thought mods were supposed to remain neutral? Not try to blow threads wide open erplexed


----------



## Rocky91 (Jun 27, 2010)

Lenee925 said:


> /devil'sadvocate
> 
> Not that your opinion needs defending, but I think I get what you are saying. Maybe if Kizzie had at least detangled, *juiced* and threw on a cute headband, she would have looked alright? In the movie it did look really matted. Stop me if I'm reaching here..


 so the juice woulda made errythang betta???


----------



## Bint Yusef (Jun 27, 2010)

honeycomb719 said:


> My answers are in purple.


HC I see what you are saying and respect your POV. I just read that you are natural and it may be that you are struggling a bit to find your place and styles you feel that enhance your particular personality and look? I feel like you've boxed natural hair into sort of an earth mother box and you are right that particular style does not suit everyone, but natural hair is not limited to that. I also feel like the more women that go natural of varying backgrounds contributes to the increasingly growing dialogue and the face of natural hair may be more palatable to some women. I think if you look around you will see that there are quite a few people around here that don't do the boho look, self included. It just takes some trial and error and everyone is able to get to a point where they can pull off their own look  It could just be a matter of getting more length if you feel that the shorter styles dont suit you.


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## Lenee925 (Jun 27, 2010)

maree said:


> I thought mods were supposed to remain neutral? Not try to blow threads wide open erplexed


 
I am so glad she was honest. Bint was saying that her opinion was probably very common among us black women. What annoys me is that it took this long to finally get to the point of the entire post. Folks getting called nazis and insecure all because we don't want to read between the lines. Even had 2520 folks in here sitting back taking it all in. SMDH


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## nikolite (Jun 27, 2010)

honeycomb719 said:


> And this is why threads get thrown OT most times. If asked, I can attest to many women who should not try to pull of the bone str8 hair either, but thats not what we are discussing in this thread.. Nor did I say those words! I dont like it being put in my mouth (or insuinuated) that I believe that nonsense either.



That's exactly what this thread is about!

But IMO, if a black woman has hair that grows straight or kinky out of her head, its a good look for her.

ETA:  I wasn't putting those words in your mouth or even referencing you.  I was saying that no one on this thread or IRL has said that to date that I've ever heard.


----------



## cocosweet (Jun 27, 2010)

princessnad said:


> WTH are you talking about? This thread isn't about you or anti-whiteness. *Is it ok for something to not be about you? This thread is about the psyche of black women as it relates to OUR hair*.


I had to quote this because the thanks button just wasn't enough. 
If you are going to be a fly on the wall, sometimes it's best to just be quiet ( and gain some insight while withholding judgement) or in this case withhold those keystrokes.



> *EastClevelandK*
> 
> 
> _As a white woman..._


Kmn1980 already nailed it, but if you know anything about the history of black people in the Americas, or the prevailing beauty standard, you'd understand (at least a little bit) why black people feel the way we do. I find all this so called naivete really disingenous and dismissive.


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## BelindaLuz (Jun 27, 2010)

preciouslove0x said:


> Please don't shoot at me. Just curious.
> 
> 
> Have you ever heard a YT woman say that they prefer kinky textured hair? I ask because I was talking to one of my YT best friends earlier today about the subject. She asked me why so many blacks prefer straight hair (we're extremely close so we talk about everything under the sun, in other words I took no offense). Is it because "they are able to achieve it" and if they couldn't, like YT people can't achieve kinky hair, "would they still prefer it?" What are your thoughts? I never thought about it before and don't have an opinion just yet. I do personally prefer straight hair (so obviously that's not why I went natural). But would we prefer it if we couldn't achieve it?
> ...


 
I have not read any post on here but yours.

Many are programed from the womb to despise their natural hair. It started with the slave runners taking us from our respective countries and divorcing us from our lives, our land, our cultures, our religions and our practices.

Once brought to the USA and in Puerto Rico ( I can not speak for Brazil or the other Countries/Islands that had slaves sold to them) we were labeled as property and raped of everything that made us who we were in our respective countries. It started with the slaves masters.

Generations later that self hate is preached to us from our families.

We do not research on how to care for our beautiful hair and the hate of our hair is a continuous spiral.

I have a longer answer based on different geografical mindsets seeing as I grew up in San Diego, was stationed in San Antonio and live in North Carolina, but that would be too long.

P.S. Let's not for get the slave master induced rivalry between the "house ******" and the "field ******" that continues to this day in the form of "look at how lite she is. I hate her." "Look how dark he is he is ugly" (no matter how beautiful he actually is) "look at her hair she has good hair" "girl bestil *pops child on head* I need to streighten thes naps" "I ahte your nappy hair. why can't you have good hair like____________"


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## nikolite (Jun 27, 2010)

Lenee925 said:


> /devil'sadvocate
> 
> Not that your opinion needs defending, but I think I get what you are saying. Maybe if Kizzie had at least detangled, juiced and threw on a cute headband, she would have looked alright? In the movie it did look really matted. Stop me if I'm reaching here..



LOL, come on now.  She was a slave.  I don't think she had the time or resources for all that.  Just sayin'... 

I thought her hair was cute though.  Didn't look matted to me.


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## FlowerHair (Jun 27, 2010)

I think she would have gotten a high 5 from LHCF!







Very cute! Especially in the first pic where she was the young Kizzy.


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## localhost (Jun 27, 2010)

I think a lot of black women feel that having straight hair evens the playing field.  Women of other races have straight hair, so we should too if we want to be desirable to the opposite sex.

So if you have 3 women of other races, white, asian, latino, then a black women with coils, who is the prince charming of ANY race going to eliminate first?  Think "the bachelor" for a second...

This is a very dangerous thought pattern IMO.  The only way to combat this is to be natural, wear it and wear it well, and see how well you do.  In corporate america.  On the dating/playing field.  In life.  Trust me, swagg runs much deeper than what's on my head, but that's me. 

Other races don't desire our hair types because WE don't even want our hair type.  So why should they? 

If more black women embraced their natural beauty, oh man...  we could straight take over the game.  Let the rest of them spend $$$ billions trying to get something they could never have naturally.  Let them suffer burns and breakage as they alter the molecular structure of their hair's protein bonds.  They already bake in the sun...I'm just sayin'....


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## Lenee925 (Jun 27, 2010)

nikolite said:


> LOL, come on now. She was a slave. I don't think she had the time or resources for all that. Just sayin'...
> 
> I thought her hair was cute though. Didn't look matted to me.


 

Well at least I tried....My own grandmother told me yesterday that natural hair only looks nice with an "S-Curl perm".


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## VictoriousBrownFlower (Jun 27, 2010)

Lenee925 said:


> I am so glad she was honest. Bint was saying that her opinion was probably very common among us black women. What annoys me is that it took this long to finally get to the point of the entire post. Folks getting called nazis and insecure all because we don't want to read between the lines. Even had 2520 folks in here sitting back taking it all in. SMDH


 
People were being called insecure and nazis because they make it seem like everyone feels that way. Not everyone feels the way some feel. Not everyone thinks of natural hair as making you look like you are an extra in roots. That to me is taking it to a whole nother level. 

I find it odd that people can asses someones personality, reasons behind their actions etc... because of their hair choice. I do feel that there are def women that do things for the wrong reasons. Some of those reasons are from conditinoing etc.... But not all. We are humans before we are black. We are individuals before we are a group of people. The generalizations and judgements about a whole group because of what some believe is what got to me.


----------



## Mitey Cyrus (Jun 27, 2010)

Y'all need to stop talking to EastClevelandK as though she's actually white. That's all I'm going to say


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## ScorpioBeauty09 (Jun 27, 2010)

My first post here!  I wear my hair straight because I can, I like it and its easier to manage.  I wore my hair in braids when I was a kid until I was 16 and I still do during the summer when I swim.  But I prefer my hair straight because I feel its more me and because I can!  Freedom is a wonderful thing!!


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## Mareeღ (Jun 27, 2010)




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## nikolite (Jun 27, 2010)

βεℓℓα said:


> I think a lot of black women feel that having straight hair evens the playing field.  Women of other races have straight hair, so we should too if we want to be desirable to the opposite sex.
> 
> So if you have 3 women of other races, white, asian, latino, then a black women with coils, who is the prince charming of ANY race going to eliminate first?  Think "the bachelor" for a second...
> 
> ...



Yes!


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## Lenee925 (Jun 27, 2010)

Rachelorette said:


> Y'all need to stop talking to EastClevelandK as though she's actually white. That's all I'm going to say


 
Swearrrrrr I was just thinking that!


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## LittleLuxe (Jun 27, 2010)

Lenee925 said:


> /devil'sadvocate
> 
> Not that your opinion needs defending, but I think I get what you are saying. Maybe if Kizzie had at least detangled, juiced and threw on a cute headband, she would have looked alright? In the movie it did look really matted. Stop me if I'm reaching here..



I think what you and the other individual posted is quite interesting. I'm going to stick strictly to hair being an ornament on top of one's head, nothing more or less for the purposes of this post. Realistically being born one way or having one feature doesn't mean you a. will be satisfied with that feature or b. you might really look good with that feature.

Someone mentioned how her friend started to gray early, that was something she was born with that she could have learned to accept and 'rock' but she chose to instead use hair dye. This choice lead her to more confidence and a feeling of personal beauty (I assume). Just because she chose to dye her hair rather than keep the gray doesn't mean the gray was the evil beast, maybe it just didn't look good on her.

Maybe sometimes something just doesn't fit, dress it up however you like and say it will ALWAYS work for an individual but it may just not work that way. For instance I've always loved Solange's hair, from the time she was rocking the long weaves to the very short cut to the large puff she has now. She always looked good. However when I recall Beyonce's curly pics I'm torn, something about it doesn't work. There are times she looked super cute and other times she looked forgettable. Nothing about her with curly hair impressed or interested me. Just like when she wore the dark brown hair I realized (surprisingly) it didn't look good on her. That might be the natural color that grows out of her head but it did nothing to enhance her appearance. On the flip the dark brown/black looks gorgeous on so many other black women. 

Some people don't look good with long hair, short hair, brown hair, blond hair, curly hair, straight hair. Thus why we have a billion-dollar cosmetic industry making money off that reality.


----------



## dynamic1 (Jun 27, 2010)

OT: I never understood why people feel comfortable referring to some naturals as racist mass murderers (Nazis).  Nah, that isn't divisive at all.


----------



## LittleLuxe (Jun 27, 2010)

Bronxjazzy - 

Totally OT but I have to say every time I see a post of yours and that beautiful baby girl I instantly smile. She is just gorgeous! 

Congrats!


----------



## honeycomb719 (Jun 27, 2010)

Bint Yusef said:


> HC I see what you are saying and respect your POV. I just read that you are natural and it may be that you are struggling a bit to find your place and styles you feel that enhance your particular personality and look? I feel like you've boxed natural hair into sort of an earth mother box and you are right that particular style does not suit everyone, but natural hair is not limited to that. I also feel like the more women that go natural of varying backgrounds contributes to the increasingly growing dialogue and the face of natural hair may be more palatable to some women. I think if you look around you will see that there are quite a few people around here that don't do the boho look, self included. It just takes some trial and error and everyone is able to get to a point where they can pull off their own look  It could just be a matter of getting more length if you feel that the shorter styles dont suit you.




I appreciate that, and in essence that speaks for me personally and my hair struggles, length is more the issue. Im not a big fan of short styles period be it natural or relaxed...But, before I rule anything out I will atleast try it and see how it works for me. If anyone can recall, my last profile pics was me with my short hair do. It was cute (as I feel most styles on me are) but I just didnt feel it suited me. Which I think anyone should be allowed to do without being micro analyzed to the point of questioning their motives. 
Im sure the negatives mentioned in this thread about why some Black women relax is true, but the doesnt apply to all.


----------



## honeycomb719 (Jun 27, 2010)

nikolite said:


> That's exactly what this thread is about!
> 
> But IMO, if a black woman has hair that grows straight or kinky out of her head, its a good look for her.
> 
> ETA:  I wasn't putting those words in your mouth or even referencing you.  I was saying that no one on this thread or IRL has said that to date that I've ever heard.



I appreciate the clarification, but when a comment is made that piggy-backs off what I said, and closely correlates I can on assume that one was trying to put words in my mouth or insinuate that my comment also meant something else.


----------



## localhost (Jun 27, 2010)

*IMO...*

This isn't a natural vs. relaxed issue.  This is a "WTF is wrong with black women and our self-image" issue as we relate to the world.  As we have been taught to see [and hate] ourselves.

Straight hair is a preference.   I think we all get that.  But to say that I-you-we-she can't wear a natural style because it doesn't look good, isn't flattering, and/or is slave-like *absolutely floors me*.


----------



## DDTexlaxed (Jun 27, 2010)

dynamic1 said:


> OT: I never understood why people feel comfortable referring to some naturals as racist mass murderers (Nazis).  Nah, that isn't divisive at all.



I hate the term,nappy Nazi, but I get why some use it. It is because some naturals try to force feed their view on others and it leads to bad consequences. People have been hurt by their words or actions. It basically is a superiority complex. It seems there is a theme going on in this thread where relaxed or strait = inferior/ brain washed and natural hair is elevated. It leads to division to elevate one above another.  That is my opinion of the term.  I don't view natural hair as bad. It is just another way for me to wear my hair if I choose to do so as well as relaxed hair.


----------



## yardgirl (Jun 27, 2010)

I don't give a damn about what anyone thinks of my preferring straight hair. My hair is personal business. Stay out of my personal business.


----------



## BEAUTYU2U (Jun 27, 2010)

DDTexlaxed said:


> I hate the term,nappy Nazi, but I get why some use it. It is because some naturals try to force feed their view on others and it leads to bad consequences. People have been hurt by their words or actions. It basically is a superiority complex. It seems there is a theme going on in this thread where relaxed or strait = inferior/ brain washed and natural hair is elevated. It leads to division to elevate one above another.  That is my opinion of the term.  I don't view natural hair as bad. It is just another way for me to wear my hair if I choose to do so as well as relaxed hair.



I understand this ... but on the flip side, there is no name for women with relaxers who push who "needs" a relaxer. That's also a superiority complex. The term is ... harsh, to say the least. How about natural optimists?


----------



## honeycomb719 (Jun 27, 2010)

βεℓℓα said:


> *IMO...*
> 
> This isn't a natural vs. relaxed issue.  This is a "WTF is wrong with black women and our self-image" issue as we relate to the world.  As we have been taught to see [and hate] ourselves.
> 
> Straight hair is a preference.   *I think we all get that.  But to say that I-you-we-she can't wear a natural style because it doesn't look good, isn't flattering, and/or is slave-like absolutely floors me.*




Who said that?


----------



## Kneechay (Jun 27, 2010)

*adds kmn1980 to friends list*


----------



## *CherryPie* (Jun 27, 2010)

NO! 



BEAUTYU2U said:


> I understand this ... but on the flip side, there is no name for women with relaxers who push who "needs" a relaxer. That's also a superiority complex. The term is ... harsh, to say the least. How about natural optimists?


----------



## Qualitee (Jun 27, 2010)

Why isnt this thread locked yet???


----------



## BlackMasterPiece (Jun 27, 2010)

honeycomb719 said:


> Lol, but honestly from *MPOV **not every AA can pull this look off without looking like an xtra from the cast of Roots.* ***Dont Stone me yall***
> 
> ETA: Or maybe I shouldve used Good Times as a more modern example!


What is wrong with looking like/reflecting the beauty of our ancestors? We descend from them after all........why should we scoff at the notion of looking like them? Thats like being ashamed of looking like your mother.


----------



## LadyRaider (Jun 27, 2010)

Y'all wrong for bringing Kizzy into this.


----------



## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Jun 27, 2010)

BEAUTYU2U said:


> I understand this ... but on the flip side, there is no name for women with relaxers who push who "needs" a relaxer. That's also a superiority complex. The term is ... harsh, to say the least. How about natural optimists?


 There is.  It's brainwashed.


----------



## DDTexlaxed (Jun 27, 2010)

BEAUTYU2U said:


> I understand this ... but on the flip side, there is no name for women with relaxers who push who "needs" a relaxer. That's also a superiority complex. The term is ... harsh, to say the least. How about natural optimists?



But we don't see relaxed ladies pushing relaxers on this site. This site is about welcoming the beauty of both relaxed and natural hair, not the elevated divisive good & bad hair mentality.  This site is supposed to an oasis from that. This is supposed to be celebrating and helping others to achieve long hair, both relaxed and natural. I wish we would get back to discussing that instead of things that can divide us.


----------



## UrbainChic (Jun 27, 2010)

Honestly, I think its the same reason so many white women prefer light or blonde hair.....

Its the generalized societal image of beauty. Its a little different for everyone but the generalized reason is the same.


----------



## LaFemmeNaturelle (Jun 27, 2010)

Is it ok to lmao at Nichi?


----------



## BeetleBug (Jun 27, 2010)

LaFemmeNaturelle said:


> Is it ok to lmao at Nichi?



Yeah, I checked her siggy. lol


----------



## tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT (Jun 27, 2010)

kmn1980 said:


> what she said


----------



## BelindaLuz (Jun 27, 2010)

NJoy said:


> Personally, I prefer to wear straight or loose curl styles because it looks best on me based on my physical attributes such as face shape, height, neck, etc. For instance, a straight look slims my round face visually. Any bulk makes me look like a tankhead. Um...no. That's my brother.
> 
> Wish I had a deep answer that would properly represent blacks that prefer straight hair rolleyes but, *shrugs* I guess my answer is personal preference.


 
Not startin mess, just asking a question.

Your statement is based on whos standards?

A white stylest or a non white stylest that was trained by a white person in a school geered toward white people or cosmatology/stylest books writen by white people that tells all of the student that "highly ethnic/kinky hair can only be managed by relaxing the hair".

I _had_ those books because my mom went to cosmatology school for a while.

Again, not an attack. Many of us do not know why we think, feel, believe a certin way until we do a little (or a lot of) research.

Great topic.


----------



## BEAUTYU2U (Jun 27, 2010)

DDTexlaxed said:


> But we don't see relaxed ladies pushing relaxers on this site. This site is about welcoming the beauty of both relaxed and natural hair, not the elevated divisive good & bad hair mentality.  This site is supposed to an oasis from that. This is supposed to be celebrating and helping others to achieve long hair, both relaxed and natural. I wish we would get back to discussing that instead of things that can divide us.



Honestly, I've been hearing about these kind of women for a long time ... but I've never actually _seen_ one (lol) Like Bigfoot. That's why I liked LHCF in the first place. I _thought_ it was a place without the division.... but it seems we're just hell bent on changing that. *sigh*


----------



## Bubblingbrownshuga (Jun 27, 2010)

kmn1980 said:


> *When you can show us where* your people were stolen from their land, brought over here to work for free for 4 centuries, raped, separated from their families, lynched for no reason, told you were ugly, had your hair called "dreadful", made to change your religion, not keep your own name, not speak your own language, not allowed to learn to read, not allowed to marry, were made to cover your head after you had been freed because your oppressors said your hair is offensive (research Ante-Bellum law), etc...
> 
> *AND, after you built this country on your back*
> 
> ...


 

BEST
FRIGGIN
POST
EVER!!!!!


----------



## BelindaLuz (Jun 27, 2010)

southerncitygirl said:


> I agree...she aint slick!!! Curly hair is a dominant trait, yt women fry their hair daily with a flat iron to mask the curl and suffer excessive heat damage, breakage and split ends.
> 
> I think its human nature to want what you dont have but yt's have consistently made a point of making us feel inadeqate over our God given features and attributes.....hair, buts, lips, etc.


 
The only attributes they are willing to copy are our breast and out tan (as long as it is not too dark).


----------



## kmn1980 (Jun 27, 2010)

Nichi:

Delivering straight ether through her sig since June 2010.

Social consciousness is a beautiful thing.


----------



## LaFemmeNaturelle (Jun 27, 2010)

BelindaLuz said:


> The only attributes they are willing to copy are our breast and out tan (as long as it is not too dark).


 

And the booty.....and the lips.....and the braids (or were we not the first?)

Honestly, as much as whites have put us (and other minorities) down in the past and present, I think they actually LOVE US. They just couldn't understand why THEY were different so they made us to feel inferior. They talked about africans for having big butts and looking like animals but why did the women wear those big poofy dresses that made them appear to have a big back side? So OT

Carry on....


----------



## lovegymnasts (Jun 27, 2010)

BEAUTYU2U said:


> Honestly, I've been hearing about these kind of women for a long time ... but I've never actually _seen_ one (lol) Like Bigfoot. That's why I liked LHCF in the first place. I _thought_ it was a place without the division.... but it seems we're just hell bent on changing that. *sigh*



I respectfully disagree. Division occurs when people take things personally and make it about themselves.
I do not see why a discussion about this topic should cause division. What is wrong with having a healthy even heated discussion about this topic in this thread and leaving it here? Maybe it is a personality thing. I can argue/disagree with someone about any subject and then let it go when it is over. I like discussions because they make me think, give me different viewpoints, and I learn something.


----------



## BEAUTYU2U (Jun 27, 2010)

lovegymnasts said:


> I respectfully disagree. Division occurs when people take things personally and make it about themselves.
> I do not see why a discussion about this topic should cause division. What is wrong with having a healthy even heated discussion about this topic in this thread and leaving it here? Maybe it is a personality thing. I can argue/disagree with someone about any subject and then let it go when it is over. I like discussions because they make me think, give me different viewpoints, and I learn something.



I completely agree with everything you just stated ... so I don't know what you're disagreeing with


----------



## LadyRaider (Jun 27, 2010)

Researcher Ogbu said that we often act in reaction to the historical denigration of all things black.  Ogbu was the one who came up with the idea of "acting white" that we have all heard of.

So Ogbu would say that if you are natural because you are rejecting the white paradigm of beauty, then you are just as caught up in the cycle as kids who insist on using African American Vernacular English and make fun of those who choose a different way.

Put simply, it can be substantiated that both "sides" of this debate are "colonized."


----------



## lovegymnasts (Jun 27, 2010)

BEAUTYU2U said:


> I completely agree with everything you just stated ... so I don't know what you're disagreeing with



I thought you were saying something to the effect that threads like these were causing this board to divide into two camps (naturals vs relaxed).


----------



## BEAUTYU2U (Jun 27, 2010)

lovegymnasts said:


> I thought you were saying something to the effect that threads like these were causing this board to divide into two camps (naturals vs relaxed).



Oh, no. I have no problem with threads like these. I think it's how we respond to them and take things personal, and not look at them objectively.


----------



## Americka (Jun 27, 2010)

LadyRaider said:


> Researcher Ogbu said that we often act in reaction to the historical denigration of all things black.  Ogbu was the one who came up with the idea of "acting white" that we have all heard of.
> 
> So Ogbu would say that if you are natural because you are rejecting the white paradigm of beauty, then you are just as caught up in the cycle as kids who insist on using African American Vernacular English and make fun of those who choose a different way.
> 
> Put simply, it can be substantiated that both "sides" of this debate are "colonized."



Yes, Yes, Yes!

Would that be John Ogbu, the Nigerian American anthropologist?


----------



## softblackcotton (Jun 27, 2010)

i personally don't prefer straight hair. I prefer long hair and straight hair just happens to look longer than curly hair, but straight hair is so boring to me. Can't do much with it, but where it down, pony tail, up, down, YAWN! With straight hair, that's just it, it's straight, you get what you get with it.  Curly/kinky hair has more character and surprises! Curly/kinky hair can shrink to shortness and then surprise people with it's straight length. Curly/kinky hair has volume so even those with thinner hair can feign thicker hair with more curls! I also prefer thickness to thinness in terms of hair. In my experience, I find that the most curly/kinky types tend to have a lot more denseness and thickness to straighter/wavy/loose curl types even when bone straighten. The 4s in my experience have the most hair on their heads and it especially shows when the hair gets long enough for the weight to straighten the kinks out a little. So my preferred hair is thick and long no matter type or texture. The end.


----------



## LadyRaider (Jun 27, 2010)

Americka said:


> Yes, Yes, Yes!
> 
> Would that be John Ogbu, the Nigerian American anthropologist?



Yes. He worked with American Fordham, but I am never clear which parts of their work together she disavowed.


----------



## PearlyCurly (Jun 27, 2010)

Please 


adlock2:
eace_sm:


----------



## Foxglove (Jun 27, 2010)

PearlyCurly said:


> Please
> 
> 
> adlock2:
> eace_sm:



It can stay open. It doesn't have to remain ugly
ETA like other people mentioned it's a good discussion but is more personal for some


----------



## Bubblingbrownshuga (Jun 27, 2010)

You know, I see posts in here about this thread needing to be locked. Why? I mean seriously, if you want this thread locked, LHCF shouldn't be in existence. If one uses the beating a dead horse excuse for this topic, we should apply it to ALL topics because most of what's discussed here is basically recycled.

Mods, if you all decide to do something drastic with this thread, I would prefer it be locked over deleted. This topic was very informative and should serve as a hair care reference.

Peace!


----------



## BelindaLuz (Jun 27, 2010)

Bosinse said:


> White people can acheive kinky hair if they wanted, they just don't want it, right now anyway.


 
gone are the 60's/70's when MANY w/o kinky/coily hair wanted an AFRO


----------



## DigitalRain (Jun 27, 2010)

WOW this thread BLEW UP!  just like I knew it would


----------



## HappilyLiberal (Jun 27, 2010)

BelindaLuz said:


> Not startin mess, just asking a question.
> 
> Your statement is based on whos standards?



Why can't her standards be the standards she sets for herself?  Why can't she embrace her desire for straight hair without having to defend her position as anything other than a personal preference.?  Why are you assuming that it must have been someone white who set those standards?


----------



## BelindaLuz (Jun 27, 2010)

tHeHaIRLaB said:


> i had a professor last year that said it is a "cultural norm" for blacks to be both late and loud.
> 
> 
> *but on topic: DO BLACK MEN PREFER STRAIGHT HAIR?*


 Norm? See it took all of me to not respond to the first post about black=loud.

Common people are loud Affluent are not and that spans all races.

I know white people who are common and loud same goes for Filipinos, Iranians, Puerto Ricans, Cubans, Dominicanas, Jamaicans, Indians, Afghanis, Italians, Germans, English, Spanish, a few Chinese two Japanese.

I also know more of the above cultures/rases who exhibit class and live an affluent lifestyle who are not loud.

That "professor" needs to go become more globally minded before letting this type of poison escape his/her being and infect others.


----------



## BelindaLuz (Jun 27, 2010)

kmn1980 said:


> ITA. I call it "the why behind the why."
> 
> The following commentary I found on another site (non-hair related) and it pretty much sums up my opinion on the subject. Since the OP wants everyone to play nice, I feel that this is a safer option for me because if I say what's really on my mind...well....trust me. Here goes:


 
I wish I could thatnk this post 100 times...


----------



## gcchick_07 (Jun 27, 2010)

honeycomb719 said:


> Lol, but honestly from *MPOV *not every AA can pull this look off without looking like an xtra from the cast of Roots. ***Dont Stone me yall***
> 
> ETA: Or maybe I shouldve used Good Times as a more modern example!



 -flava flav- wooooooooooooooooooooooooooow


----------



## MyAngelEyez~C~U (Jun 27, 2010)

kmn1980 said:


> ITA. I call it "the why behind the why."
> 
> The following commentary I found on another site (non-hair related) and it pretty much sums up my opinion on the subject. Since the OP wants everyone to play nice, I feel that this is a safer option for me because if I say what's really on my mind...well....trust me. Here goes:



Absolutely.


----------



## PearlyCurly (Jun 27, 2010)

Bubblingbrownshuga said:


> You know, I see posts in here about this thread needing to be locked. Why? I mean seriously, if you want this thread locked, LHCF shouldn't be in existence. If one uses the beating a dead horse excuse for this topic, we should apply it to ALL topics because most of what's* discussed here is basically recycled*.
> 
> Mods, if you all decide to do something drastic with this thread, I would prefer it be locked over deleted. This topic was very informative and should serve as a hair care reference.
> 
> Peace!



Exactly. 
This topic has been discussed & repeated a thousand times on here! I have noticed that when there is a usual question like "How do you co-wash" either someone post a link to on old topic about the same thing or barely any one answers the question. But topics like this(which is still USUAL) there are like 30 freaken pages! But everyone always says the same exact thing...

1- Because they want too.
2- Because they still have a slave mentality
3- Because they hate their selves.
4- Because all the white girls have straight hair.
5- Because the relaxer is evil
6- Or someone leaves a 5pg post.

And no i am not saying what should be discussed on here since it is not my website, but 26pgs really? Keep the thread going, its nice to see the same topic discussed over & over again.
I honestly think one day, one of these "Why do black women relax their hair?" "Why do black women straighten their hair?" "Why do black women believe in good hair vs. black hair?" "Is natural hair better then relaxed hair?" Should be a sticky, so then when the question is asked then some one cant point them to the thread


----------



## nikolite (Jun 27, 2010)

lovegymnasts said:


> I respectfully disagree. Division occurs when people take things personally and make it about themselves.
> I do not see why a discussion about this topic should cause division. What is wrong with having a healthy even heated discussion about this topic in this thread and leaving it here? Maybe it is a personality thing. I can argue/disagree with someone about any subject and then let it go when it is over. I like discussions because they make me think, give me different viewpoints, and I learn something.



ITA. I love debate, maybe that's why this is actually fun and interesting to me.  I don't see any divisiveness either.  Only discussion and disagreement and ain't nothing wrong with that.


----------



## nikolite (Jun 27, 2010)

PearlyCurly said:


> Exactly.
> This topic has been discussed & repeated a thousand times on here! I have noticed that when there is a usual question like "How do you co-wash" either someone post a link to on old topic about the same thing or barely any one answers the question. But topics like this(which is still USUAL) there are like 30 freaken pages! But everyone always says the same exact thing...
> 
> 1- Because they want too.
> ...



Please. And your posting dead horses will help it get to 25 pages.  You're contributing just like everyone else.  

Clearly, people are discussing this topic and keep coming back to it for a reason.  Discussion and debate is what stimulates intellectual progress.  I'm sure everyone who has participated has pulled something relevant from this thread (even if its a little time away from doing the work we're supposed to be doing right now).  You have no right to tell anyone what they can or cannot talk about in this forum.  By your logic, how about we just shut-down the entire forum and make it a web resource for LHC junkies?    

If someone is tired of these discussions or can't tolerate the opinions here, then stop responding and stop opening up and viewing the thread.  Keep your cursor moving.  You knew what we were talking about before you came in!


----------



## jennboo (Jun 27, 2010)

DDTexlaxed said:


> I hate the term,nappy Nazi, but I get why some use it. *It is because some naturals try to force feed their view on others and it leads to bad consequences.* People have been hurt by their words or actions. It basically is a superiority complex. It seems there is a theme going on in this thread where relaxed or strait = inferior/ brain washed and natural hair is elevated. It leads to division to elevate one above another. That is my opinion of the term. I don't view natural hair as bad. It is just another way for me to wear my hair if I choose to do so as well as relaxed hair.


 
Not that i agree, but what are the bad consequences? Waking up and embracing your natural hair?


----------



## DragonPearl (Jun 27, 2010)

EastClevelandK said:


> skegeesmb,
> 
> I am white. I grew up in a 99% white school system. I know for a fact that we don't talk about black people behind your backs because I have been around 100% white groups of people MANY TIMES and we don't do this. *In my whole life, THIS HAS NEVER HAPPENED*. If someone ever tried to do that, they would be labeled a social outcast. It is not considered socially acceptable behavior. Period.


 
I just find that hard to believe.


----------



## lovegymnasts (Jun 27, 2010)

PearlyCurly said:


> Exactly.
> This topic has been discussed & repeated a thousand times on here! I have noticed that when there is a usual question like "How do you co-wash" either someone post a link to on old topic about the same thing or barely any one answers the question. But topics like this(which is still USUAL) there are like 30 freaken pages! But everyone always says the same exact thing...
> 
> 1- Because they want too.
> ...




If someone finds something of interest in this thread, they enter and discuss.
If someone does not find it interesting, they should pass it up and move on.


----------



## Strangefruittree (Jun 27, 2010)

kmn1980 said:


> *When you can show us where* your people were stolen from their land, brought over here to work for free for 4 centuries, raped, separated from their families, lynched for no reason, told you were ugly, had your hair called "dreadful", made to change your religion, not keep your own name, not speak your own language, not allowed to learn to read, not allowed to marry, were made to cover your head after you had been freed because your oppressors said your hair is offensive (research Ante-Bellum law), etc...
> 
> 
> *I'm done with this one. *


 

well dayum homie... the thought and effort towards buiding alone is completely appreciated.


----------



## ~Sparklingflame~ (Jun 27, 2010)

Rachelorette said:


> Y'all need to stop talking to EastClevelandK as though she's actually white. That's all I'm going to say


I SERIOUSLY doubt shes white too but just in case she is Im glad kmn told her like it tiz.


----------



## Southernbella. (Jun 27, 2010)

^^^^Ion know yall...she sure had the privilege and entitlement down pat.


----------



## jennboo (Jun 27, 2010)

Folks want the thread locked because there is some intelligent, thought-provoking, truthful commentary in here and it's making them uncomfortable. When we don't want to face things we attempt to bury it, run from it, hide it, and otherwise pretend it does not exist because it makes us feel better for the time being. 

I still cannot fathom how a bunch of black women are getting ticked over a thread that exalts the beauty of our god-given (or whoever-given) features. Ish is so backwards. In a normal world, all of these threads about new fangled hair straightening, kink-destroying chemicals and processes would be considered offensive. If a white person came in here and said to a black woman that her natch hair needed to be tamed by burning the crap out of it, either chemically or through heat, people would be ready to kill. This is essentially what is happening, except it isnt a white person suggesting the above, its other black people. I don't know about you all, but i'd be highly offended if someone came up to me and said that my natural skin color (a prominent trait inherent to my RACE) looked like crap and handed over a box of bleaching cream.


----------



## jennboo (Jun 27, 2010)

yardgirl said:


> I don't give a damn about what anyone thinks of my preferring straight hair. *My hair is personal business. Stay out of my personal business.*


 
  You're on a public message board geared toward hair care.


----------



## ~Sparklingflame~ (Jun 27, 2010)

Southernbella. said:


> ^^^^Ion know yall...she sure had the privilege and entitlement down pat.


----------



## Ms Lala (Jun 27, 2010)

I don't see how this thread is causing division, it seem to be provoking intelligent conversation which I think is a positive.  If we don't recognize  and discuss issues things will never improve. I think this thread actually brought out some good points regarding social constructs, racism, and the subconscious motivations in regards to hair.  It's easy to say it's just hair but we all know it's not. I actually read most of the posts and have found it intriguing.  I've done research on the "Barbie Image" and it's impact on women.  This is real ladies, the motivation to look a certain way doesn't just fall from the sky.  Our preferences over the years have been shaped and it's impacted women of all races. However the attack on the culture of Black women has been more targeted and has a history of oppression unlike that of white women in this country.  Even if you choose to wear straight hair, acknowledge where these practices originated and why.


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## SummerSolstice (Jun 27, 2010)

straight hair looks nice *kanyeshrug* *dueces*








oh i aint neva had a perm in my life. straight natcha 4a/b up out this peice


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## Crackers Phinn (Jun 27, 2010)

Forget the cosmetic reasons -The majority of black women relax their hair because it's what they know.

I honestly don't think there is any thought behind it.   It's a reflex.

It's easier to have relaxed hair.  There are entire markets designated for dealing with relaxed hair and potential problems that may come up.    

There are no definitive answers in natural hair.   There is a whole lot of guess work that goes into changing from being a lifelong relaxer to natural hair.   Hell, if  you ask 10 naturals to identify a hair type, you're likely to get 5 different answers and an arguement about whether somebody is delusional.  Good luck if you actually have a problem.  People try to help, but more times than not the best you're going to get are guesstimates and if those then don't help the problem isn't your hair it's "your mindset".
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I also think that the title of this thread is absolutely wrong.  I don't believe for one moment that "blacks" prefer straight hair.   I think if the majority of black women could wake up with type 3 hair tomorrow, relaxer sales would become obsolete.


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## lovegymnasts (Jun 27, 2010)

Crackers Phinn said:


> Forget the cosmetic reasons -*The majority of black women relax their hair because it's what they know.*
> 
> I honestly don't think there is any thought behind it.   It's a reflex.
> 
> ...



I do believe that most women continue to get relaxers out of habit but also fear of their natural hair because it is unknown and what they hear about or think about their natural hair is not positive.
ex/ One co-worker said she thought about going natural and said she couldn't do it and had to relax her hair because her new growth was giving her headaches...actual physical headaches. Another said she could not do it because her hair was too nappy.

I think most children initially get relaxers because their mothers do not know how to or do not want to deal with their natural hair and some do not want their children walking around with nappy hair.

I don't agree that most women want type 3 hair and that it would make relaxers obsolete. If this was the case, why were most type 3's relaxed as children in the first place and why do women overwhelmingly put in the straightest weave they can find instead of type 3 weave?

I do agree that it appears easier to have relaxed hair but it really isn't because we still do not know how to take care of our relaxed hair. IRL most of the people I know have either messed up relaxed hair or really short relaxed hair. Also if this was true, why would the weave business be what it is today?


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## BelindaLuz (Jun 27, 2010)

SweetTea said:


> It's kind of beating a dead horse, but it's because it's what most of us were brought up to like. When I was little, my mom pressed my hair every week and then relaxed me when I was 4 or 5. I used to have a serious complex about my new growth, being relaxed so young. I hated the feel of it. I remember once, I took scissors and snipped away the new growth at my nape because it didn't "feel right."
> 
> And then my parents wondered why I had problems being black when I was little. Even just in the early 90's when I was a kid, I don't remember black women being acknowledged as much as they are today. I thought only white women were pretty/could be pretty. My mom would always tell me, "Black women are pretty. Don't feel bad about yourself." and then turn around and tell me I didn't have "pretty white-girl hair" when I would get my hair wet.
> 
> ...


 let's not forget that there are Afro Asian who naturally have what THEY can kinky hair and we call wavy and or curly hair.


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## Crackers Phinn (Jun 27, 2010)

lovegymnasts said:


> I think most children initially get relaxers because their mothers do not know how to or do not want to deal with their natural hair and some do not want their children walking around with nappy hair.



I completely agree with this and each generation seems to relax the kids at earlier ages.  I have some highly unPC non hair related thoughts about the reasons behind that, but suffice it to say is that there is more routine to this than doctrine.



lovegymnasts said:


> I don't agree that most women want type 3 hair and that it would make relaxers obsolete. *If this was the case, why were most type 3's relaxed as children in the first place* and why do women overwhelmingly put in the straightest weave they can find instead of type 3 weave?



@ the bolded,  if you start with the basic premise that most black women are using inferior hair products,  the wrong hair tools and are not very liberal when it comes to washing and conditioning hair.  It's not hard to see how alot of type 3 hair could be judged as just as unmanageable as type 4, so the path of least resistance is to throw a relaxer in it.

@ the blue - if you're relaxed, it's easier to blend your relaxed hair to straight weave  than with curly.  Curly weave also is notorious for tangling, so you get more use and less maintenance buying a straight weave or wig than a curly one.  



lovegymnasts said:


> I do agree that it appears easier to have relaxed hair but it really isn't because we still do not know how to take care of our relaxed hair.* IRL most of the people I know have either messed up relaxed hair or really short relaxed hair.* Also if this was true, why would the weave business be what it is today?



I fully concede that the hair outside of hairboards is a scary thing. However, if we kept the conversation within the realm of hair boards,  most women with crazy looking relaxed hair can make leaps in bounds in improving the look of their hair and retaining length.     

If naturals had the same amount of information *based in science *instead of "guesstimacation" on how to care for their hair as relaxed heads do then I think there would be more of a presence of bsl and wsl loose haired naturals.   I am basing this hunch on a poll taken about hair length by hair type that was done last year.


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## lovegymnasts (Jun 27, 2010)

Crackers Phinn said:


> I fully concede that the hair outside of hairboards is a scary thing. However, if we kept the conversation within the realm of hair boards,  most women with crazy looking relaxed hair can make leaps in bounds in improving the look of their hair and retaining length.



I definitely agree here but it's hard to get people out of their comfort zone even if they would love the results.


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## Farida (Jun 27, 2010)

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## BelindaLuz (Jun 27, 2010)

arosieworld said:


> As far a your post goes I prefer curly hair but when I was young I just wanted to have hair like my mom. I think beyond all the deep stuff for a lot of girls that is a big reason. I grew up seeing my mom with bone straight hair (she is mixed doesn't relax) her hair could have been orange and I would have wanted it.
> 
> 
> 
> You DO know. Don't let other peoples views make you question a relationship that has been good to/for you. My Bff is white and like you I have known her for years. If someone ever overheard some of our conversations they would think horrible things about both of us. Because she is your friend the walls are down she feels like she can ask you things she would never ask anyone else because you love her and won't judge. I am sure you've used that to your benefit as well and asked some crazy things, I know I have. Not all white people are looking for validation of their whiteness and only you know if she is.


 I have done the same with white, black, mexican, Iranian...


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## Adaoba2012 (Jun 27, 2010)

I apologize if this has been asked already..I have not read this whole thread. 

I'm not saying that I disagree with the thoughts and beliefs that black women relax their hair because of years of oppression and colonization. Ideally, that makes a lot of sense knowing what Black people endured during those times and how it has continued to trickle down through the generations. However, I have to ask..what about "blacks" whose ancestors were not slaves..meaning Africans? Why do people who are direct immigrants from Africa or who are second generation immigrants (like myself) relax their hair? Would I have any reason to hate myself or have a liking for "the norm" or "what is culturally accepted"? My mother relaxed her hair for years (but has since stopped) my grandmothers and aunts on both sides who were all born and bred in Nigeria relaxed as well. So what is the reasoning behind that? One could say that I now relax my hair because I was raised here and have been exposed to those ideals presented through the media..okay fine. But what about MY ancestors who were not tormented, abused or brainwashed? & who were only exposed to people who looked just like them..with skin, kinks, curls, hips and lips just the same?


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## BGT (Jun 27, 2010)

I have been thinking about this topic ALLLLLLLL day  thinking of an appropriate response. It's really made me think!  So here is my personal reasons as to why I prefer straight hair:

I was natural until I was 8. I've always had very thick hair. It's fine (texture-wise, thinner than thread) now, but I've always had a LOT (!!!) of hairs on my head. My mother loved my natural texture but I did not; not because I felt jealous of my white and relaxed friends or because I heard the word "nappy" thrown around. I didn't like it because it hurt for her to style my hair. She was very gentle, but hair-styling was always an ordeal. Especially on wash day. She had to wash in plaits or else my hair would lock up. She had to take a hot comb through it just to get a regular comb through it, although that hot comb never straightened my hair, just stretched it. I can't tell you how many times my hair BROKE combs.  I could never go swimming because that meant wash day and more torture and my hair was even harder because of the chlorine. 

I begged for a relaxer to fit in, yes. My BF in elementary school would tease me for still being relaxed. I also wanted to spend less time getting my hair combed in the mornings before school and more time watching cartoons.  Again, my mother wanted me to keep my natural hair, even though it was a huge hassle for her. But she finally gave in and let me get it done. I must admit, I had an enormous pride of pride because I fit in. 

But to answer the question in present-day, I just thought the REAL reason was assumed. erplexed Like, we all knew that deeeeeep-down, it stems from white beauty ideals. Why else would Indian women bleach their skin and praise women with blue/green/grey eyes? Why else would Asian cut their eyelids (!!) to give them a flap? I always thought it was sad when I see women do this to appear more white or conform to white ideals. But it's not sad to see black women chemically straighten their hair? No, because I'm black.

Why am I not natural now? Different reasons. I'm very lazy and try to get my hair styled as quickly and with as little effort as possible. I know I'd be a horrible natural. I see so many naturals talk about how they wash their hair in sections or in plaits/braids or spend hours blow drying and straightening... ugh, not me. I'd rake through my hair so fast and take half of it with me.  I'm also not a very confident person, and I feel you need to be very confident with yourself to wearing your natural hair, at least where I live in the South. I don't think I could take the comments or the jabs or the stares. My ego is too fragile.  I also love my long hair and reversion would piss me off. 



jennboo said:


> Not that i agree, but what are the bad consequences? Waking up and embracing your natural hair?



Probably making people so defensive they ignore your comments.


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## Foxglove (Jun 27, 2010)

Adaoba2012 said:


> I apologize if this has been asked already..I have not read this whole thread.
> 
> I'm not saying that I disagree with the thoughts and beliefs that black women relax their hair because of years of oppression and colonization. Ideally, that makes a lot of sense knowing what Black people endured during those times and how it has continued to trickle down through the generations. However, I have to ask..what about "blacks" whose ancestors were not slaves..meaning Africans? Why do people who are direct immigrants from Africa or who are second generation immigrants (like myself) relax their hair? Would I have any reason to hate myself or have a liking for "the norm" or "what is culturally accepted"? My mother relaxed her hair for years (but has since stopped) my grandmothers and aunts on both sides who were all born and bred in Nigeria relaxed as well. So what is the reasoning behind that? One could say that I now relax my hair because I was raised here and have been exposed to those ideals presented through the media..okay fine. But what about MY ancestors who were not tormented, abused or brainwashed? & who were only exposed to people who looked just like them..with skin, kinks, curls, hips and lips just the same?



IME a lot of Africans emulate the west so if people keep relaxing here they will keep relaxing back home


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## LaFemmeNaturelle (Jun 27, 2010)

Adaoba2012 said:


> I apologize if this has been asked already..I have not read this whole thread.
> 
> I'm not saying that I disagree with the thoughts and beliefs that black women relax their hair because of years of oppression and colonization. Ideally, that makes a lot of sense knowing what Black people endured during those times and how it has continued to trickle down through the generations. However, I have to ask..what about "blacks" whose ancestors were not slaves..meaning Africans? Why do people who are direct immigrants from Africa or who are second generation immigrants (like myself) relax their hair? Would I have any reason to hate myself or have a liking for "the norm" or "what is culturally accepted"? My mother relaxed her hair for years (but has since stopped) my grandmothers and aunts on both sides who were all born and bred in Nigeria relaxed as well. So what is the reasoning behind that? One could say that I now relax my hair because I was raised here and have been exposed to those ideals presented through the media..okay fine. But what about MY ancestors who were not tormented, abused or brainwashed? & who were only exposed to people who looked just like them..with skin, kinks, curls, hips and lips just the same?


 

Er um..Nigeria was colonized by the english in the 1900s n'est-ce pas?


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## Ms Lala (Jun 27, 2010)

Adaoba2012 said:


> I apologize if this has been asked already..I have not read this whole thread.
> 
> I'm not saying that I disagree with the thoughts and beliefs that black women relax their hair because of years of oppression and colonization. Ideally, that makes a lot of sense knowing what Black people endured during those times and how it has continued to trickle down through the generations. However, I have to ask..what about "blacks" whose ancestors were not slaves..meaning Africans? Why do people who are direct immigrants from Africa or who are second generation immigrants (like myself) relax their hair? Would I have any reason to hate myself or have a liking for "the norm" or "what is culturally accepted"? My mother relaxed her hair for years (but has since stopped) my grandmothers and aunts on both sides who were all born and bred in Nigeria relaxed as well. So what is the reasoning behind that? One could say that I now relax my hair because I was raised here and have been exposed to those ideals presented through the media..okay fine. But what about MY ancestors who were not tormented, abused or brainwashed? &* who were only exposed to people who looked just like them..with skin, kinks, curls, hips and lips just the same?*



You would have to find a culture that has not experienced the effects of colonization or been exposed to media to really observe this.


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## LittleLuxe (Jun 27, 2010)

Adaoba2012 said:


> I apologize if this has been asked already..I have not read this whole thread.
> 
> I'm not saying that I disagree with the thoughts and beliefs that black women relax their hair because of years of oppression and colonization. Ideally, that makes a lot of sense knowing what Black people endured during those times and how it has continued to trickle down through the generations. However, I have to ask..what about "blacks" whose ancestors were not slaves..meaning Africans? Why do people who are direct immigrants from Africa or who are second generation immigrants (like myself) relax their hair? Would I have any reason to hate myself or have a liking for "the norm" or "what is culturally accepted"? My mother relaxed her hair for years (but has since stopped) my grandmothers and aunts on both sides who were all born and bred in Nigeria relaxed as well. So what is the reasoning behind that? One could say that I now relax my hair because I was raised here and have been exposed to those ideals presented through the media..okay fine. But what about MY ancestors who were not tormented, abused or brainwashed? & who were only exposed to people who looked just like them..with skin, kinks, curls, hips and lips just the same?



I'm from Nigeria as well, it's very nice to have someone else with that pov join the discussion.


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## Adaoba2012 (Jun 27, 2010)

LaFemmeNaturelle said:


> Er um..Nigeria was colonized by the english in the 1900s n'est-ce pas?



 True..but were they also beaten, abused and told their hair was dreadful as well?



Ms Lala said:


> You would have to find a culture that has not experienced the effects of colonization or been exposed to media to really observe this.


 Do you mean that African woman who relax their hair do so as a result of a commercial they saw on TV? I guess I'm looking for a definitive answer but there doesn't seem to be one.


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## Adaoba2012 (Jun 27, 2010)

Foxglove said:


> IME a lot of Africans emulate the west so if people keep relaxing here they will keep relaxing back home



 In your experience? Is that what IME means? How are you so sure they they emulate the west to the point where they have been consumed with the self hatred that blacks have? If they emulate the west why do they still dress traditionally, eat their own meals and observe their own culture? and if that is not what you are trying to say please elaborate..


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## Foxglove (Jun 27, 2010)

Adaoba2012 said:


> True..but were they also beaten, abused and told their hair was dreadful as well?
> 
> 
> Do you mean that African woman who relax their hair do so as a result of a commercial they saw on TV? I guess I'm looking for a definitive answer but there doesn't seem to be one.



Yes, same as here.


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## Adaoba2012 (Jun 27, 2010)

Foxglove said:


> Yes, same as here.


 I'm sorry but the answer is not simply "Yes, same as here." and if you expect me to accept that as a realistic answer then I am sorry to say that you are sadly mistaken...and maybe you should do a bit more research to give me a better answer.


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## jennboo (Jun 27, 2010)

Crackers Phinn said:


> *Forget the cosmetic reasons -The majority of black women relax their hair because it's what they know.*
> 
> *I honestly don't think there is any thought behind it. It's a reflex.*
> 
> ...


 
Black bolded: I don't think anyone can argue you down about the fact that lots of black women are relaxed due to the fact that its all they've ever known and/or because their mommas and grandmommas did it. That's the point of the thread....why is the practice so pervasive? Why is relaxing the hair considered a reflex/the default? Why do we still hold tight to the practice? I'm talking about the preference for it, over our own natural hair, and where it originates. There are lots of things that our parents  introduced to us, that we just DID because it's always been done that way, doesnt mean the original intent of the practice was great (and that we have to ignore the original intent because it makes us feel better) or that we have to keep doing it. 

Red bolded: In terms of styling? For some people yes, for some people no. I'm more inclined to believe that it's easier for folks who accept the kink pattern of the hair as is. Styling probably tends to be harder for those who want to make the natural hair mimic a straighter texture or one unlike their own. 

Blue bolded: Okay....If we changed the title of the thread to "Why do so many blacks prefer straighter hair?" That'll lump in the silkier/straighter hair types that are still considered 'highly textured'. We're still fightin' the same battle with that one....folks still preferring the looser/straighter textures that 'curl up' and 'lie down'.


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## Ms Lala (Jun 27, 2010)

Adaoba2012 said:


> True..but were they also beaten, abused and told their hair was dreadful as well?
> 
> 
> Do you mean that African woman who relax their hair do so as a result of a commercial they saw on TV? I guess I'm looking for a definitive answer but there doesn't seem to be one.




I cannot speak to the experience of women in Nigeria or any other African nation because I have not lived there.  Nor do I know enough Nigerian women to have an adequate understanding of general views on hair in that country.  What I do know is that the question you posed earlier asked about people relaxing who have only been around others like them.  I was simply pointing out that this is not true of Nigeria.  You would have to do a study on a culture that has not been colonized or exposed to media. I have read studies done on a  indigenous tribe of people who were never exposed to media and what was considered beautiful to them was VERY different from much of what we see on TV.  They were more likely to favor facial features and a body type that is not considered ideal in the US.  Media is much more than commercials and even commercials are much more than meets the eye.  Psychology is heavily involved in how things are marketed.  There is a reason why people crave foods after seeing them on a commercial .  But anyway I would appreciate hearing more of your perspective.  Perhaps you can enlighten us on views regarding hair in Nigeria.  I can only comfortably speak as a Black woman living in America;  my experience and research is limited to this.  Do you believe that colonization had an impact on the beauty image that is considered acceptable in Nigeria?  I don't expect you to speak for every Nigerian just as I can't speak for every Black woman but I am curious.


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## BelindaLuz (Jun 27, 2010)

*CherryPie* said:


> It IS only hair.
> 
> Folks are doing those things that you mentioned for HEALTHY LONG HAIR. That doesn't mean that there's some deeper meaning attatched to it.


 
 I tried no responding to this...

How are you going to say that Relaxed hair is "Healthy" when cosmatologist (who are tought that "highly eyhnic hair has to be relaxed inorder to manage it) lable relaxed hair as damaged? 

Milady's Hair Atructure and Chemistry Simplified by Douglas D. Schoon


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## Foxglove (Jun 27, 2010)

Adaoba2012 said:


> I'm sorry but the answer is not simply "Yes, same as here." and if you expect me to accept that as a realistic answer then I am sorry to say that you are sadly mistaken...and maybe you should do a bit more research to give me a better answer.



That is a realistic answer coming from a Nigerian who is the only natural woman in her family (that I know of). In Nigeria (as in most colonized countries) it's more about showing wealth. The affluent people are influenced by western ways so if your hair is natural that means you can't afford a relaxer. All the commercials on tv and whatnot aren't geared towards natural hair. Also America is kind of showed as the land of milk and honey where everybody is balling. Part of that image is the weaved up relaxed black woman so when people emulate that image of wealth they see on tv that's what they're emulating.


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## Adaoba2012 (Jun 27, 2010)

Ms Lala said:


> I cannot speak to the experience of women in Nigeria or any other African nation because I have not lived there.  Nor do I know enough Nigerian women to have an adequate understanding of general views on hair in that country.  What I do know is that the question you posed earlier asked about people relaxing who have only been around others like them.  I was simply pointing out that this is not true of Nigeria.  You would have to do a study on a culture that has not been colonized or exposed to media. I have read studies done on a  indigenous tribe of people who were never exposed to media and what was considered beautiful to them was VERY different from much of what we see on TV.  They were more likely to favor facial features and a body type that is not considered ideal in the US.  Media is much more than commercials and even commercials are much more than meets the eye.  Psychology is heavily involved in how things are marketed.  There is a reason why people crave foods after seeing them on a commercial .  But anyway I would appreciate hearing more of your perspective.  Perhaps you can enlighten us on views regarding hair in Nigeria.  I can only comfortably speak as a Black woman living in America;  my experience and research is limited to this.  Do you believe that colonization had an impact on the beauty image that is considered acceptable in Nigeria?  I don't expect you to speak for every Nigerian just as I can't speak for every Black woman but I am curious.



 I personally cannot speak for every Nigerian woman of course...but from what I have researched and learned from my parents there was not a very significant impact on beauty image in Nigeria after colonization. The biggest influence that the British had on Nigerian civilians were to enclose a group of very diverse cultures and tribes into one country, divide them based on those cultural differences and then conquer. Once Nigeria gained their independence in 1960 there were still ethnic distrusts that caused political disputes. This untimately led to the civil war in Nigeria which resulted in over a million deaths to people of my tribe (igbo) and thousands among the other tribes there. I feel they were too busy fighting for their lives, starving to death and being slain to have had the chance to be influenced by TV commercials for straight flowing hair. That is just my opinion of my country and my culture. I cannot speak that way for every country in Africa but this is what I know.

ETA: As far as hair goes there are women who are relaxed and wear weaves of course but based on the areas that I have visited most women wear their hair naturally in braids or twists with or without extensions. That is the norm.


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## BelindaLuz (Jun 27, 2010)

BronxJazzy said:


> I think people take the whole straight hair versus natural hair thing too far. Its hair people. I dont relax because of some deep seeded hate for myself. I relax because my face doesnt look good with short hair. If I didnt have as much shrinkage as a natural head I wouldnt have relaxed. Its just style preference. I actually dont prefer straight hair over curly or natural hair. I just dont look good with short hair. Period....
> 
> Do some people do it for other reasons. Sure...But does that mean the majority do????? That type of thinking in my opinion is so judgemental. If society doesnt put people in a box enough we do it to ourselves.


 
How long is long?

"Long hair" is a relitive term as is "a lot of money".

Most of the Balck and Black looking women I know have unstretched unrelaxed hair to their shoulders, APL, BSL, and waist.

Talking about busting myths.


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## BelindaLuz (Jun 27, 2010)

Jewell said:


> Personally, I used to prefer straight hair, as that is what I was used to, since my mother acted as if my natural hair was unkempt looking and too hard to manage. However, as I started stretching my relaxers (time between touch-ups), I realized that I preferred the look and feel of my NG much better than the thin, straight, relaxed hair. I have always loved big, natural, kinky hair on other women, but thought I couldn't attain that for myself. That is when I transitioned for the 1st time.
> 
> It's all about a person's preference and state of mind. I won't even entertain the thought that every Black woman or person who wears their hair straight is brainwashed. Thats just a ludicrous and ignorant generalization. Some people really do have a deep issue with their natural hair (some women in my fam are in that group). Some just wear straight hair for the manageability. I had to give up chemicals in order to get to my long, thick, natural hair goals. A relaxer wasn't going to allow me (in particular) to get to WL and beyond. The longer it got while relaxed, the thinner it got, no matter how much I trimmed. So, for me, I have learned to embrace my kinky, wavy hair, but it took time to mentally "transition" and to do so with the hair. Once you're used to wearing and maintaining straight hair for 20+ years, it takes time to get out of that mindset and routine.


 
This would be the part of the "brainwashing" others spoke of.


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## empressri (Jun 27, 2010)

I think a lot of people want what they aren't born with. Be it their hair, skin, breasts, whatever. Some just accept what they have and go on with their lives.


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## likewtr4chklit (Jun 27, 2010)

EastClevelandK said:


> As a white woman .


 
Riiiiiiiight, sure you are


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## frida1980 (Jun 28, 2010)

I'd like to congratulate myself for getting through 26 pages of the most redundant argument that keeps popping up. Now I can make my post without repeating anything.

Yes, there is a slave mentality. But it is not worth arguing about. Natural hair, is just natural hair. It's a preference. Yes it grows out of our bodies, as does arm pit hair and mustache hair. Both of which we dispose of because society tells us that it is not attractive. We also wear dresses, because we're girls. We give ourselves facials and cry about zits. We go on diets and hit the gym. We wear make up and jewelry. All these are things that are demanded in modern times. We don't have to do them, but we do them to be accepted and attract mates. About 90% of what single women between ages 14-99 do with their appearance is to make themselves more attractive to the opposite sex (or same sex at times ) So while yes, there is an history of black hair in regards to slavery, nowadays it has more to do with accepted societal norms and pleasing males. 

One sad fact that hasn't been brought up is that natural 4b hair is masculine. Black males wear nearly all "natural" styles. Twists, dreds, pony puffs, braids, and fros are all common with black males. Some women can pull off a masculine hair style by being very girly, pairing it with the right clothes and accessories, and of course having very feminine features. But if you don't have those features, or are a tom boy like me, then you'll be less attractive to the opposite sex. And even if you do have them all, to a lot of black men you'll still be less attractive than someone who straightened. This is the main and saddest reason that women straighten their hair. It's not because they don't want to be different than white society, which we do everyday with our music, clothes, and styles. But we cling to what our men find attractive. If black women didn't give a [email protected] about men, I assure you natural would be choice. For no other reasons than to save a crap load of money and not have to scream like a banshee when it starts to rain.


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## Southernbella. (Jun 28, 2010)

frida1980 said:


> One sad fact that hasn't been brought up is that natural 4b hair is masculine.



This is where you lost me. But as with previous posts, your honesty is appreciated and apropos.


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## empressri (Jun 28, 2010)

frida1980 said:


> I'd like to congratulate myself for getting through 26 pages of the most redundant argument that keeps popping up. Now I can make my post without repeating anything.
> 
> Yes, there is a slave mentality. But it is not worth arguing about. Natural hair, is just natural hair. It's a preference. Yes it grows out of our bodies, as does arm pit hair and mustache hair. Both of which we dispose of because society tells us that it is not attractive. We also wear dresses, because we're girls. We give ourselves facials and cry about zits. We go on diets and hit the gym. We wear make up and jewelry. All these are things that are demanded in modern times. We don't have to do them, but we do them to be accepted and attract mates. About 90% of what single women between ages 14-99 do with their appearance is to make themselves more attractive to the opposite sex (or same sex at times ) So while yes, there is an history of black hair in regards to slavery, nowadays it has more to do with accepted societal norms and pleasing males.
> 
> One sad fact that hasn't been brought up is that natural 4b hair is masculine. Black males wear nearly all "natural" styles. Twists, dreds, pony puffs, braids, and fros are all common with black males. Some women can pull off a masculine hair style by being very girly, pairing it with the right clothes and accessories, and of course having very feminine features. But if you don't have those features, or are a tom boy like me, then you'll be less attractive to the opposite sex. And even if you do have them all, to a lot of black men you'll still be less attractive than someone who straightened. This is the main and saddest reason that women straighten their hair. It's not because they don't want to be different than white society, which we do everyday with our music, clothes, and styles. But we cling to what our men find attractive. If black women didn't give a [email protected] about men, I assure you natural would be choice. For no other reasons than to save a crap load of money and not have to scream like a banshee when it starts to rain.



males and hell society you can say. i had an ex bf's mother refer to her hair as ni**erish, and she wouldn't wear it out. my eyes got big as hell. but trying to convince her otherwise would have me like


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## BostonMaria (Jun 28, 2010)

empressri said:


> males and hell society you can say. i had an ex bf's mother refer to her hair as ni**erish, and she wouldn't wear it out. my eyes got big as hell. but trying to convince her otherwise would have me like



A very good friend of mine refers to her hair as "slave hair" 
You can't pay her to take down her braids.


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## frida1980 (Jun 28, 2010)

Sorry. But it's true. If 4 hair isn't stretched in some way, it looks no different that a man's hair. No different than a masculine hair cut on a woman really. A BW hair texture has always been looser than a man's. In the same token, men don't wear their hair straight because it's a women's style. Somehow a woman must add to her femininity or be mistaken for a man again and again. This happened to me and several other less girly women when we go natural. Because we're not girly men either mistake us for men or lesbians. Don't ask me why...


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## Miss*Tress (Jun 28, 2010)

Adaoba2012 said:


> I apologize if this has been asked already..I have not read this whole thread.
> 
> I'm not saying that I disagree with the thoughts and beliefs that black women relax their hair because of years of oppression and colonization. Ideally, that makes a lot of sense knowing what Black people endured during those times and how it has continued to trickle down through the generations. However, I have to ask..what about "blacks" whose ancestors were not slaves..meaning Africans? Why do people who are direct immigrants from Africa or who are second generation immigrants (like myself) relax their hair? Would I have any reason to hate myself or have a liking for "the norm" or "what is culturally accepted"? My mother relaxed her hair for years (but has since stopped) my grandmothers and aunts on both sides who were all born and bred in Nigeria relaxed as well. So what is the reasoning behind that? One could say that I now relax my hair because I was raised here and have been exposed to those ideals presented through the media..okay fine. But what about MY ancestors who were not tormented, abused or brainwashed? & who were only exposed to people who looked just like them..with skin, kinks, curls, hips and lips just the same?


Middle to upper class Africans may emulate American grooming standards to distinguish themselves from the lower classes. That may not be your case though.


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## BeetleBug (Jun 28, 2010)

..................................


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