# How I Learned That Being West Indian Didn't Make Me Better Than African Americans



## CurlyNiquee

*How I Learned That Being West Indian Didn't Make Me Better Than African Americans

by Lisa Jean Francois – January 18, 2016
 *

Growing up in the 80’s and 90’s I learned very early on that being Haitian wasn’t exactly the thing to be. When my family moved to a new town, my older brother and I simply hid it. Nobody asked, so we didn’t tell. Then it all began to unravel. My third grader teacher assigned a family tree diagram which forced me to reveal our heritage I recall coming home from school that day feeling dread as I told my older brother (by two years) that the jig was up. The tears came quickly, from both us, as we understood all too well what it would mean to reveal that we were Haitian. The teasing would be brutal, but tolerable. Feeling ostracized was what we feared the most.

But then we grew up, and like most people, the very thing we were teased about as children became the thing we cherished with the upmost pride. We embraced our heritage, and slowly the larger West-Indian community began to accept us. Gaining this acceptance, however, came at a price. While I had always heard family members speak with disdain about Black Americans, it wasn’t until I was a teenager when I learned that this _us vs. them _mentality spanned across West-Indian cultures. When I’d hear West-Indians attributing certain stereotypes to Black Americans, I found myself nodding in agreement.  We _were_ different, I insisted. We  were educated. Our children were better behaved. We were hard-working. Our food tasted better. African Americans gave us all a bad name, and while we would befriend them in public, in private, we’d deride them for being stereotypical.

I carried this belief with me to college. I was even proud when white people would praise me for being different from what they’d imagined. My French last name was also a crowd-pleaser. I ate it all up with a spoon. My false pride, however,  came to an abrupt halt towards the end of my freshman year when one of my white dorm-mates told me to, “Go back to Africa.” I was stunned. Surely, she couldn’t mean me? I had the perfectly straight hair. I dressed well. I made the Dean’s list. I spoke properly. How could she, in a moment of anger, reduce me to being a black face just like any other? I was different. _Wasn’t I_? It was a hard lesson, but she woke me up good and proper. I’ve never been the same and I’m proud that I did not go into adulthood carrying that load of self-hatred with me.

Recently, Huffington Post writer Nadege Seppou, who is of Cameroonian heritage, penned an open letter to African immigrants, urging them to not fall victim to the same belief system.  She writes:

White Americans will say you are better than American blacks, but please do not fall for this trap. You will be told you behave better, work harder, and are more educated than American blacks. You will be tempted to agree and will sometimes want to shout, “YES, I’M NOT LIKE THEM, WE AFRICANS ARE DIFFERENT!” Just don’t…don’t even think it.

The praise of your acquired characteristic and culture becomes a justification for white Americans to perpetuate discriminatory treatments towards American blacks. These statements of praise have an underlying message of, “If Africans can do so well then surely racism has nothing to do with anything, therefore, American Blacks are to be blamed for their condition in America”. This problematic line of reasoning sustains cultural racism. I beg of you, refrain from nodding in agreement when you receive such faulty praise.

Indeed, West Indians, like the African immigrants described in Seppou’s letter, are guilty of the same misdeeds. In wanting to carve out a place for ourselves in a society where being black places you on the bottom rung, we have perpetuated the belief that we are better than our African American counterparts.

Caribbean culture and African culture _are_ different than African American culture. But when we celebrate our uniqueness, it should never be to shame African American culture.

Source


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## Transformer

I'm glad to see this publicly acknowledged but the thought will not become widespread.  She's just up in her feelings because of ONE negative experience with a white person.  I sure she forgot all about it once she became published.


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## CurlyNiquee

I have noticed a certain superiority among _some _foreign Blacks. I've always been highly offended at the thought that they might think they're better than us. But then later realized that it is very much about divide and conquer. Only difference between West Indians and us is a boat stop. White people use their ignorance of American history against them.


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## sj10460




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## Kranbery

Uh huh...


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## CaraWalker

why people say "upmost" 

like

you really dont know youre doing it wrong?


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## Crystal22

I dont care.


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## CaraWalker

oh oops

i know my african american self didnt just correct this proper speaking as blessed by white people west indian


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## JudithO

Glad people are not falling for this bull. Anyone who thinks that they are better than someone else based on their cultural and racial origin is not worth listening to anyway.


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## LaBelleLL

Haitians aren't even West Indian though.


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## Ganjababy

This sense of superiority and disrespect while you benefitting from the struggles of black Americans and all they have achieved which has enabled you to have a piece of the "American pie" while you live in their country is mind boggling to me (that they built, may I add)...

This is a disgusting and ignorant and delusional attitude that i have seen in the WI and African community personally. Not all of us think like that, thankfully.


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## doll-baby

My best friend since 8th grade is Hatian. I love her like a sister, don't know what else to add...


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## sharifeh

well good for her for admitting that and overcoming it 
i think the story with the white dorm mate was just to prove a point, wouldn't be surprised if that never happened 

my family is half west indian and while they always emphasize how different the culture is, they were not critical and i never got the feeling that they thought they were better, which I'm thankful for


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## aviddiva77

CaraWalker said:


> oh oops
> 
> i know my african american self didnt just correct this proper speaking as blessed by white people west indian


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## LeftRightRepeat

LaBelleLL said:


> Haitians aren't even West Indian though.



I didn't think so either, but Wikipedia is telling me that it's part of the French West Indies.


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## Kanky

nevermind


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## Kiowa

Ganjababy said:


> This sense of superiority and disrespect while you benefitting from the struggles of black Americans and all they have achieved which has enabled you to have a piece of the "American pie" while you live in their country is mind boggling to me (that they built, may I add)...
> 
> This is a disgusting and ignorant and delusional attitude that i have seen in the WI and African community personally. *Not all of us think like that, thankfully*.



This..


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## ag00

Being Haitian myself, this article is a bit strange to me. My family came from Haiti to the U.S. in the late 70s after the Duvalier regime and emphasized the importance of keeping God first, hard work, and education to make something of yourself. And that's what we did and nearly all the second and third generation of our families graduated from college with bachelor's or master's, has a professional career, their own homes, etc. Our story is no different than other immigrants like Nigerians and Jamaicans. 

I don't think any of us think we're better than African-Americans. We are all a part of the African diaspora. I think it's sometimes the excuses that are made in the AA community for why one cannot succeed that is foreign to the traditional mentality of an immigrant. Another thing is, we don't see whites as enemies but friends and associates with resources that can help us move up the economic ladder.


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## Keen

Major side eye to the author. I went to school with many Haitians who were ashamed to be Haitians until people like Wyclef Jean and Garcelle Beauvais became popular. Now they are all up on Facebook talking about how proud they are too be Haitian. Roll eyes..

The author would have never thought she was better than AA if she didn't have self esteem issue. These type of people always feel like they have to be better than someone else to have any self value.


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## Honey Bee

ag00 said:


> Being Haitian myself, this article is a bit strange to me. My family came from Haiti to the U.S. in the late 70s after the Duvalier regime and emphasized the importance of keeping God first, hard work, and education to make something of yourself. And that's what we did and nearly all the second and third generation of our families graduated from college with bachelor's or master's, has a professional career, their own homes, etc. Our story is no different than other immigrants like Nigerians and Jamaicans.
> 
> I don't think any of us think we're better than African-Americans. We are all a part of the African diaspora. I think it's sometimes the excuses that are made in the AA community for why one cannot succeed that is foreign to the traditional mentality of an immigrant. Another thing is, we don't see whites as enemies but friends and associates with resources that can help us move up the economic ladder.


Thank you for providing an example of the behavior in the op. I was wondering when the 'Yeah, but...' would start.


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## curlicarib

As a first generation American of Caribbean descent, I say bullsh*t.  Everybody in my family had 10 jobs each and was too busy trying to get a piece of the American pie to worry about if anyone was better than anyone else.  This sounds like an individual and personal problem to me.


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## Christina Dior

ag00 said:


> Being Haitian myself, this article is a bit strange to me. My family came from Haiti to the U.S. in the late 70s after the Duvalier regime and emphasized the importance of keeping God first, hard work, and education to make something of yourself. And that's what we did and nearly all the second and third generation of our families graduated from college with bachelor's or master's, has a professional career, their own homes, etc. Our story is no different than other immigrants like Nigerians and Jamaicans.
> 
> I don't think any of us think we're better than African-Americans. We are all a part of the African diaspora. I think* it's sometimes the excuses that are made in the AA community for why one cannot succeed that is foreign to the traditional mentality of an immigrant. *Another thing is, we don't see whites as enemies but friends and associates with resources that can help us move up the economic ladder.



I here this a lot from west Indians ....the counter argument is black immigrants are favored more than AA's


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## Kiowa

nm


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## beingofserenity

Yeah, I don't identify with this article at all.

I wish I felt superior. But no, I remember being called African booty scratcher...maybe if my family were wealthy, it would have been different.


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## PretteePlease

are cliff and his notes present and accounted for if so help a sista out with some highlights


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## beingofserenity

PretteePlease said:


> are cliff and his notes present and accounted for if so help a sista out with some highlights



Hatian lady apologizing for thinking she is better and different than AAs


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## Virtuosa

The real truth is that our people are so deeply intertwined that it's insane to entertain this separatist nonsense. There are too many Malcolm X's and Harrisons in our history. 

I think the diversity acorss the diaspora is a sort of cultural advantage but I can't expound on that right now.


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## isioma85

I have Nigerian friends that think and behave this way. I derive great pleasure when their bubbles of superiority burst and they crash to the ground 

If African Americans didn't fight for all the rights they did, we wouldn't even be able to come here to attend these schools. I call that **** out as soon as I see it, especially in younger Nigerians. The older ones are too stuck in their ways so they will die in their prejudice


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## locabouthair

Ganjababy said:


> This sense of superiority and disrespect while you benefitting from the struggles of black Americans and all they have achieved which has enabled you to have a piece of the "American pie" while you live in their country is mind boggling to me (that they built, may I add)...
> 
> This is a disgusting and ignorant and delusional attitude that i have seen in the WI and African community personally. Not all of us think like that, thankfully.



As someone of WI descent I agree. I've had relatives who had that mentality and I'm like well you're in this country and your future generations will be American so are you going to look down on them too?


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## bajandoc86

No lies were told. Not everyone thinks like this but let's be truthful. We all know a good number who do.


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## CaraWalker

bajandoc86 said:


> No lies were told. Not everyone thinks like this but let's be truthful. We all know a good number who do.



if this is true then how do africans mentally reconcile the fact that they are basing their self worth on getting white people to like them? yall dont feel some kind of way about that? i can see how you would arrive at the "special negro syndrome" but its less clear to me how you can be ok with basically playing a stepin fetchit role to white people in order to maintain your sense of self.


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## Honey Bee

CaraWalker said:


> if this is true then how do africans mentally reconcile the fact that they are basing their self worth on getting white people to like them? yall dont feel some kind of way about that? i can see how you would arrive at the "special negro syndrome" but its less clear to me how you can be ok with basically playing a stepin fetchit role to white people in order to maintain your sense of self.


I don't think they concern themselves with any of that. Their goal here is money, not respect.


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## beingofserenity

Whatever. This stuff goes both ways.  Tons of AAs who feel infinitely superior to WI/Africans.


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## FelaShrine

ag00 said:


> Another thing is, we don't see whites as enemies but friends and associates with resources that can help us move up the economic ladder.



Yall do? despite the history with the French? interesting.


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## 1QTPie

Good for her.


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## LaBelleLL

ag00 said:


> Being Haitian myself, this article is a bit strange to me. My family came from Haiti to the U.S. in the late 70s after the Duvalier regime and emphasized the importance of keeping God first, hard work, and education to make something of yourself. And that's what we did and nearly all the second and third generation of our families graduated from college with bachelor's or master's, has a professional career, their own homes, etc. Our story is no different than other immigrants like Nigerians and Jamaicans.
> 
> I don't think any of us think we're better than African-Americans. We are all a part of the African diaspora. I think it's sometimes the excuses that are made in the AA community for why one cannot succeed that is foreign to the traditional mentality of an immigrant. *Another thing is, we don't see whites as enemies but friends and associates with resources that can help us move up the economic ladder.*



see this is a different grade of haitian that i am not very familiar with. i hear they exist and i guess it's true. i feel like you are trolling but i have bit the bait.

attention lhcf - this is a broad sweeping statement that is not true. Haitians  - people of the first black republic in the western hemisphere - on a whole, do not see whites as friends and associates. ESPECIALLY the EDUCATED ones. when many Haitians arrive to the US, they may not concern themselves or even understand the US racial system. this is largely  bc Haiti's inequality and oppression largely functions along the lines of class, not race. it takes time to recognize this difference to even begin to understand U.S. race politics.


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## sj10460

Honey Bee said:


> Thank you for providing an example of the behavior in the op. I was wondering when the 'Yeah, but...' would start.



don't feed them...don't take the bait


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## CaraWalker

LaBelleLL said:


> see this is a different grade of haitian that i am not very familiar with. i hear they exist and i guess it's true. i feel like you are trolling but i have bit the bait.
> 
> attention lhcf - this is a broad sweeping statement that is not true. Haitians  - people of the first black republic in the western hemisphere - on a whole, do not see whites as friends and associates. ESPECIALLY the EDUCATED ones. when many Haitians arrive to the US, they may not concern themselves or even understand the US racial system. this is largely  bc Haiti's inequality and oppression largely functions along the lines of class, not race. it takes time to recognize this difference to even begin to understand U.S. race politics.


is this true? i have to admit i was really not aware of the dynamics between blacks and africans until very recently. i remember once spotting two black girls chatting together at an alumni mixer and being relieved and trying to talk to them. they were not having it. i realize now its because they were african and i am not...

i dont think much about it because at this time it's not something very impactful in my life... i dont come across africans or first generation immigrants very often. i went to school with a family of nigerians, and became friendly with the girl around my age as adults. we were fb friends and both found each other hilarious. (turns out we both had a relationship with the same guy at one time and never even knew, how crazy is that ) she is a year younger than me but she was already killing it in her career path. i was like, YAS, *****, YAS!!!! and proud that people like her were walking around in black skin. it would make me sad to think for the most part africans dont feel any kind of kinship with someone like me. 

on the other hand, i think i might understand it... i think generally africans do work harder than african americans and for all i know i might really have a part of a victim mentality regarding discrimination against bp preventing mobility... because i do think less in the line of "work yourself to the bone and forget the self righteousness" and more "we are a broken people and it needs to be recognized that these circumstances were not caused solely by us." it doesnt seem like africans believe that, or spend time addressing that. but at the same time i don't think it's right to ignore the reality of the consequences of racism on black americans... i would hope that people would want to help fix things rather than adopt an "i dont care get over it" attitude... idk, man. we have no solidarity as a people.


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## LaBelleLL

CaraWalker said:


> is this true? i have to admit i was really not aware of the dynamics between blacks and africans until very recently. i remember once spotting two black girls chatting together at an alumni mixer and being relieved and trying to talk to them. they were not having it. i realize now its because they were african and i am not...
> 
> i dont think much about it because at this time it's not something very impactful in my life... i dont come across africans or first generation immigrants very often. i went to school with a family of nigerians, and became friendly with the girl around my age as adults. we were fb friends and both found each other hilarious. (turns out we both had a relationship with the same guy at one time and never even knew, how crazy is that ) she is a year younger than me but she was already killing it in her career path. i was like, YAS, *****, YAS!!!! and proud that people like her were walking around in black skin. it would make me sad to think for the most part africans dont feel any kind of kinship with someone like me.
> 
> on the other hand, i think i might understand it... i think generally africans do work harder than african americans and for all i know i might really have a part of a victim mentality regarding discrimination against bp preventing mobility... because i do think less in the line of *"work yourself to the bone and forget the self righteousness" and more "we are a broken people and it needs to be recognized that these circumstances were not caused solely by us." it doesnt seem like africans believe that, or spend time addressing that.* but at the same time i don't think it's right to ignore the reality of the consequences of racism on black americans... i would hope that people would want to help fix things rather than adopt an "i dont care get over it" attitude... idk, man. we have no solidarity as a people.




i'm not african and can't speak for africans. but in the bolded statement, you can remove the word african and put haitian and that is true for so many. and it's not forget the self rightenousness. it's more or less like - just work. you came here for a purpose and do what you came here to do.  one would have to know the US racial politics to even begin to know to forget the self righteousness - that this is even a part of the landscape here. but then there are the more educated ones who are aware of the Haiti and US dynamic  and trust - they don't run around loving white people.


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## kanozas

*  *






I think the most damaging part of all of this is how people keep searching for commonalities.  People _are_ different - all races, all cultures.  Stop trying to find one bag to jump into because of anti-black prejudice and experiences.  It's ok to be different.  It should be more ok to educate oneself on the differences between people  and not to consider another less-than.

What's  funny to most is people arriving at  the most marginalized areas of a country ("hoods") and proclaiming how better behaved and educated they are.  Would any AA traveler/middle-class and above/educated/poor-but-upwardly-mobile land in a slum in Africa or the Caribbean and gloat at how much "different" they are?  If I landed in a favela in northwestern Rio, should I gloat at how much "better" I am in comparison?  People find the worst neighborhoods to live in (money issues) and feel special.  Why not land among doctors and lawyers in a rich area of town with plenty AA professionals....or arrive in a modest hood area with plenty of working/university-attending AA people and then compare self?  Why not acknowledge those they work UNDER who are AA's who run circles around them?

No, people want to find the worst examples and pin that as the typical "those people" culture and them get clarity when someone white is hateful.  That's not putting someone into their place, by the way, it's prejudice, pure and simple.  There is not _"place"_ anybody should be and the realization about prejudice is just part of life.  This is beating a dead horse and discussed ad nauseum on here, often resulting in fights.  I'm not saying you don't have the right to post it....but it's nothing new.  By the way, AA privilege does exist abroad.  I've seen it in motion and it operates the same, exact way.  Do people live so isolated that the only AA's they are in contact with are g-dless, uneducated, drug-addicted cretons?  Incredible.  That's false blindness.


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## Ogoma

This must be an American thing. The only AAs I ever knew about were the celebrities when I was younger and the listing of influential black people they used to have on the first few pages of Ebony as I grew older (do they still do this?). I didn't even know about ghettos until Juice/Poetic Justice/rest of the genre, and I watched years after they came out.

Back to the story: I laughed for a good minute that she thought her straight (relaxed) hair would protect her from racism. Is she for real?


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## JudithO

Let me step back and say that I know a lot of Nigerians that think this way. Reason being that the only images they see of AA's are those in the hood, drugs, shootings and prison. However, those people are just as closed minded and unlearned as Americans who think that all Africans run around naked and live in mud houses. People that think like this are not worth having such complex conversations with because (IMO) they do not (yet) have the intellectual capacity to process that line of thinking.


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## Ogoma

CaraWalker said:


> is this true? i have to admit i was really not aware of the dynamics between blacks and africans until very recently. i remember once spotting two black girls chatting together at an alumni mixer and being relieved and trying to talk to them. they were not having it. i realize now its because they were african and i am not...
> 
> i dont think much about it because at this time it's not something very impactful in my life... i dont come across africans or first generation immigrants very often. i went to school with a family of nigerians, and became friendly with the girl around my age as adults. we were fb friends and both found each other hilarious. (turns out we both had a relationship with the same guy at one time and never even knew, how crazy is that ) she is a year younger than me but she was already killing it in her career path. i was like, YAS, *****, YAS!!!! and proud that people like her were walking around in black skin. it would make me sad to think for the most part africans dont feel any kind of kinship with someone like me.
> 
> on the other hand, i think i might understand it... i think generally africans do work harder than african americans and for all i know i might really have a part of a victim mentality regarding discrimination against bp preventing mobility... because i do think less in the line of "work yourself to the bone and forget the self righteousness" and more "we are a broken people and it needs to be recognized that these circumstances were not caused solely by us." it doesnt seem like africans believe that, or spend time addressing that. but at the same time i don't think it's right to ignore the reality of the consequences of racism on black americans... i would hope that people would want to help fix things rather than adopt an "i dont care get over it" attitude... idk, man. we have no solidarity as a people.



Isn't the author Haitian? Haiti is not in Africa.


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## kanozas

Ogoma said:


> This must be an American thing. The only AAs I ever knew about were the celebrities when I was younger and the listing of influential black people they used to have on the first few pages of Ebony as I grew older (do they still do this?). I didn't even know about ghettos until Juice/Poetic Justice/rest of the genre, and I watched years after they came out.
> 
> *Back to the story: I laughed for a good minute that she thought her straight (relaxed) hair would protect her from racism. Is she for real?*




Have you ever lived in the  Caribbean or S. America?  It's a real issue.


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## Ogoma

kanozas said:


> Have you ever lived in the  Caribbean or S. America?  It's a real issue.



Interesting. I had no clue people thought that.


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## LeftRightRepeat

Ogoma said:


> Interesting. I had no clue people thought that.


I've never heard of that though.


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## kanozas

Ogoma said:


> Interesting. I had no clue people thought that.




Let me tell ya....you can get whisteled at (not in the sexy kinda way) for having natural hair.  You can and will get passed over for jobs for looking a certain way.  Incidentally, in PR, I was applying for a position while in school with a govt. dept. and a Haitian woman was HORRIBLY evil to me in the interview.  I actually broke down and cried later.  That's when someone told me how Haitians live hell in PR and turn on others they view as competition .  Then I remembered after-the-fact that this interviewer and head of a certain dept.  (very influential woman) made mention of it.  She was very dark-skinned, had 1 inch short tight afro....said that people openly called  her a "monkey" on the job.  !!  SMH.  And then I began to notice how girls with loose curls or straight hair faired better than those who didn't look that way - mostly Black folks from other Islands like British V.I.  It's real as a muva.  And I could be wrong, but in Haiti, having relaxed hair is a show of status considering the extreme poverty there.


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## Honey Bee

sj10460 said:


> don't feed them...don't take the bait


Hey! I coulda jumped in her ass.


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## sj10460

Ogoma said:


> This must be an American thing. The only AAs I ever knew about were the celebrities when I was younger and the listing of influential black people they used to have on the first few pages of Ebony as I grew older (do they still do this?). *I didn't even know about ghettos until Juice/Poetic Justice/rest of the genre, and I watched years after they came out.*
> 
> Back to the story: I laughed for a good minute that she thought her straight (relaxed) hair would protect her from racism. Is she for real?




aren't you from Canada? You learned about ghettos/poverty from an American movie that debuted in the 90s?


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## LaBelleLL

hello. she's white. this is why the dots aren't connecting.


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## lux10023

i read the title and thought this must be a joke...the author didnt know that..she foolish 



LaBelleLL said:


> Haitians aren't even West Indian though.


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## bajandoc86

CaraWalker said:


> if this is true then how do africans mentally reconcile the fact that they are basing their self worth on getting white people to like them? yall dont feel some kind of way about that? i can see how you would arrive at the "special negro syndrome" but its less clear to me how you can be ok with basically playing a stepin fetchit role to white people in order to maintain your sense of self.



I can't speak for those from the African Continent.

I grew up going to public school in Barbados with Bajan whites, so I have no fairytales about them (white people as a group).

I was really referring to the phenomena where some of us (Caribbean people) go over to the USA and do well, and compare themselves to AAs and come to the conclusion that we are just better. Without truly understanding the impact of their history. Look down on them, their culture, but yet refuse to leave. LOL!

Yes we have similarites i.e. Plantocracy and slavery etc, but how do you compare the American construct to your own when you grew up in a nation that is 95% black, where everyone in politics or most people in business/education etc are black. For many of us in the Caribbean socioeconomic class trumps race with a dash of colourism.


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## FlowerHair

kanozas said:


> *  *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think the most damaging part of all of this is how people keep searching for commonalities.  People _are_ different - all races, all cultures.  Stop trying to find one bag to jump into because of anti-black prejudice and experiences.  It's ok to be different.  It should be more ok to educate oneself on the differences between people  and not to consider another less-than.
> 
> What's  funny to most is people arriving at  the most marginalized areas of a country ("hoods") and proclaiming how better behaved and educated they are.  Would any AA traveler/middle-class and above/educated/poor-but-upwardly-mobile land in a slum in Africa or the Caribbean and gloat at how much "different" they are?  If I landed in a favela in northwestern Rio, should I gloat at how much "better" I am in comparison?  People find the worst neighborhoods to live in (money issues) and feel special.  Why not land among doctors and lawyers in a rich area of town with plenty AA professionals....or arrive in a modest hood area with plenty of working/university-attending AA people and then compare self?  Why not acknowledge those they work UNDER who are AA's who run circles around them?
> 
> No, people want to find the worst examples and pin that as the typical "those people" culture and them get clarity when someone white is hateful.  That's not putting someone into their place, by the way, it's prejudice, pure and simple.  There is not _"place"_ anybody should be and the realization about prejudice is just part of life.  This is beating a dead horse and discussed ad nauseum on here, often resulting in fights.  I'm not saying you don't have the right to post it....but it's nothing new.  By the way, AA privilege does exist abroad.  I've seen it in motion and it operates the same, exact way.  Do people live so isolated that the only AA's they are in contact with are g-dless, uneducated, drug-addicted cretons?  Incredible.  That's false blindness.


So true. 

People from the same class recognize each other all over the world and have lots of things in common...


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## Ogoma

sj10460 said:


> aren't you from Canada? You learned about ghettos/poverty from an American movie that debuted in the 90s?



Yes. Where else was I supposed to learn about it? It wasn't in my city and I wasn't driving past it. It is a bit narcissistic for you to expect me to know all about you. What do you know about black Canadians?


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## kanozas

bajandoc86 said:


> I
> 
> I was really referring to the phenomena where some of us (Caribbean people) go over to the USA and* do well, and compare themselves to AAs and come to the conclusion that we are just better*. Without truly understanding the impact of their history. Look down on them, their culture, but yet refuse to leave. LOL!
> 
> .




What I don't comprehend is why people are comparing themselves to the lowest common denominator in a certain, limited ethnic area rather than someone from their similar "class" or those similar values and determination.  It's useless to compare oneself to a homeless bum and say that is the majority of AA's but not compare oneself to the AA doctor, dentist, banker, lawyer, Ph.D., politician  etc. they can't afford to live next to or have to defer to at work. I'm not charging you personally at all...I'm trying to figure out how this_ thing_ happens as there appears to be a huge disconnect.   It's like the majority of AA's (certainly above poverty level and are educated like anyone else and even with higher education) are inconspicuous.  It's not unlike AA Blacks in Europe as the pet and exemplary Black people compared to Africans and Caribbeans.  Same sh*t, different meal consumed 

Something I became aware of a few years ago had to do with New Jersey and the Camden area.  Someone assumed Caribbean Blacks fared better, esp. with higher education.  What was not mentioned was that Caribbeans are the majority Black population there and the surrounding universities and even Ivy Leagues were recruiting per ethnicity  - Caribbean, not  traditional AA's - with scholarships and the like.  I guess that if the majority population is one type and they see themselves in the majority and moving up, they would probably think they were better off if the other population in that limited type of environment were down and out.  AndI think that means that they lived in the worst areas with those_ not_ being the typical experiences of AA's.   Statistically, it's not, but perception, esp. that pushed by the media, is another thing.


----------



## sj10460

All about me? I'm not from the ghetto nor did I grow up in one. 

I'm going to be tactful and say that I misunderstood your previous post. 



Ogoma said:


> Yes. Where else was I supposed to learn about it? It was in my city and I wasn't driving past it. It is a bit narcissistic for you to expect me to know all about you. What do you know about black Canadians?


----------



## Honey Bee

bajandoc86 said:


> Look down on them, their culture, but yet refuse to leave. LOL!
> 
> .


----------



## Ogoma

sj10460 said:


> All about me? I'm not from the ghetto nor did I grow up in one.
> 
> I'm going to be tactful and say that I misunderstood your previous post.



Okay. My previous post was basically stating we didn't talk about AAs in my house because we didn't have any contact with them as a group. Outside of individual celebrities we wouldn't have known what to talk about. In short, there needs to be familiarity to be contempt.


----------



## Ogoma

I am never going to understand the consternation these posts bring. On average AA are wealthier and more privileged than the average black person in any country in Africa, the Caribbean, and South America. There is nothing you gain from them pairing with you and they gain from you pairing with them. Why would the more privileged group be so concerned about how the less privileged group sees them. They are quite frankly unimportant to anything you hope to achieve. Now the write came to this realization, what happened? Which AAs life was vastly improved by her 'coming over to the other side'? Whatever she was going before had no bearing and what she is doing now has no bearing on anyone's life but hers.


----------



## Ganjababy

Not all Black Africans who feel a sense of superiority over AA get it from white peoples validation of them. 

Some have never lived in the US and so have no interaction with these U.S. divide to conquer whites. Some of this superiority complex stems from the fact that AA's (and other black slave descendants in the diaspora) are descended from slaves and they lost their African culture. Some Africans see us as culture-less slave descendants who are confused about our identities. They see us as black but not of them. Almost alien, second class cousins. 

Not everyone's views are nuanced through the white/black gaze...





CaraWalker said:


> if this is true then how do africans mentally reconcile the fact that they are basing their self worth on getting white people to like them? yall dont feel some kind of way about that? i can see how you would arrive at the "special negro syndrome" but its less clear to me how you can be ok with basically playing a stepin fetchit role to white people in order to maintain your sense of self.


----------



## Ganjababy

Like any family, we blacks of slave and non-slave descent have our issues amongst us. But I think we have more love, respect and good intentions towards each other than we have bad intentions. I try and focus on that. 

It is hard enough trying to survive the white man's aggressions, greed and power hunger. Then I have the inter island prejudices (small islands versus big island, Spanish speaking versus English versus French creole), slave versus non-slave, AA versus WI. Nah son. My battle is with the white man.


----------



## Menina Preta

I was hoping this blog article would not be posted here, b/c it truly is beating a dead horse.  And ya, I don' t think Haitians consider themselves to be "West Indian."  They are in the West Indies, but I notice most people use West Indian to refer to people from English-speaking countries and don't include places like Cuba, Haiti, DR, and PR.   Some Haitian-Americans have adopted the term to feel included when they discuss persons of West Indian descent.  I mean y'all are included during the West Indian Day Parade, whereas I think folks would cry bloody murder if we ever had  a Puerto Rican or Cuban truck, lmao.


----------



## LeftRightRepeat

At least no mention was made of "Caribbeans"  *cringe*


----------



## Menina Preta

LeftRightRepeat said:


> At least no mention was made of "Caribbeans"  *cringe*



Why cringe though?  lol.  I feel like some folks use Caribbean and West Indian interchangeably, but Caribbean applies to anyone from the Caribbean and encompasses pretty much all islanders and those with strong Caribbean influence like Guyana and Belize.


----------



## LeftRightRepeat

Caribbeans to refer to people from the Caribbean.  If it's a new term I just cant get with it


----------



## daydreem2876

Honey Bee said:


> Thank you for providing an example of the behavior in the op. I was wondering when the 'Yeah, but...' would start.



Whew... I thought it was me


----------



## Menina Preta

LeftRightRepeat said:


> Caribbeans to refer to people from the Caribbean.  If it's a new term I just cant get with it



Lol, it does sound odd in certain contexts.  "The Caribbeans."  It sounds better if you say "I'm Caribbean" or "I'm from the Caribbean" or "Proud to be Caribbean."


----------



## bajandoc86

@Menina Preta 

She is talking about the term Caribbean*S *like how people say Africans. We (well I have never heard a Bajan/Trini/St.Lucian/Jamaican use it) don't use that term to refer to ourselves. We say 'I am from the Caribbean', or 'Caribbean people', or 'I am West Indian', 'we are from the caribbean' etc.  We don't use the plural of Caribbean. Sounds very strange to my ears.


----------



## Brwnbeauti

This always confuses me a bit. Immigrants are usually the very smart, the very hard working, moneyed, or a combo (correct me if I'm wrong) comparing yourself to all African Americans seems a bit foolish. That's like me leaving here, going to an impoverished part of  Haiti and looking around saying damn, why these people still living like this, they been free for half a century or longer than my folk, but look at me and look at them. Black people everywhere face obstacles to success.


----------



## LivingInPeace

CafedeBelleza said:


> This always confuses me a bit. Immigrants are usually the very smart, the very hard working, moneyed, or a combo (correct me if I'm wrong) comparing yourself to all African Americans seems a bit foolish. That's like me leaving here, going to an impoverished part of  Haiti and looking around saying damn, why these people still living like this, they been free for half a century or longer than my folk, but look at me and look at them. Black people everywhere face obstacles to success.


Bigots don't operate on logic.


----------



## Menina Preta

bajandoc86 said:


> @Menina Preta
> 
> She is talking about the term Caribbean*S *like how people say Africans. We (well I have never heard a Bajan/Trini/St.Lucian/Jamaican use it) don't use that term to refer to ourselves. We say 'I am from the Caribbean', or 'Caribbean people', or 'I am West Indian', 'we are from the caribbean' etc.  We don't use the plural of Caribbean. Sounds very strange to my ears.



Ya, it does sound strange.  Very.


----------



## LoveisYou

So much division. Of course not everyone feels that way but happens on both sides. There are so many kinds of divisive politics among human beings.

The only thing I have to say about this particular topic. Some ppl get so angry when foreign blacks show national pride. If  I was born and raised outside the U.S. Then why are you so upset that I claim my nationality? It's a very U.S. centric viewpoint that I don't understand. Can we at least agree that the African Diaspora is diverse and that black ppl are...everywhere.


----------



## prettynatural

CurlyNiquee said:


> *How I Learned That Being West Indian Didn't Make Me Better Than African Americans
> 
> by Lisa Jean Francois – January 18, 2016
> View attachment 349507 *
> 
> Growing up in the 80’s and 90’s I learned very early on that being Haitian wasn’t exactly the thing to be. When my family moved to a new town, my older brother and I simply hid it. Nobody asked, so we didn’t tell. Then it all began to unravel. My third grader teacher assigned a family tree diagram which forced me to reveal our heritage I recall coming home from school that day feeling dread as I told my older brother (by two years) that the jig was up. The tears came quickly, from both us, as we understood all too well what it would mean to reveal that we were Haitian. The teasing would be brutal, but tolerable. Feeling ostracized was what we feared the most.
> 
> But then we grew up, and like most people, the very thing we were teased about as children became the thing we cherished with the upmost pride. We embraced our heritage, and slowly the larger West-Indian community began to accept us. Gaining this acceptance, however, came at a price. While I had always heard family members speak with disdain about Black Americans, it wasn’t until I was a teenager when I learned that this _us vs. them _mentality spanned across West-Indian cultures. When I’d hear West-Indians attributing certain stereotypes to Black Americans, I found myself nodding in agreement.  We _were_ different, I insisted. We  were educated. Our children were better behaved. We were hard-working. Our food tasted better. African Americans gave us all a bad name, and while we would befriend them in public, in private, we’d deride them for being stereotypical.
> 
> I carried this belief with me to college. I was even proud when white people would praise me for being different from what they’d imagined. My French last name was also a crowd-pleaser. I ate it all up with a spoon. My false pride, however,  came to an abrupt halt towards the end of my freshman year when one of my white dorm-mates told me to, “Go back to Africa.” I was stunned. Surely, she couldn’t mean me? I had the perfectly straight hair. I dressed well. I made the Dean’s list. I spoke properly. How could she, in a moment of anger, reduce me to being a black face just like any other? I was different. _Wasn’t I_? It was a hard lesson, but she woke me up good and proper. I’ve never been the same and I’m proud that I did not go into adulthood carrying that load of self-hatred with me.
> 
> Recently, Huffington Post writer Nadege Seppou, who is of Cameroonian heritage, penned an open letter to African immigrants, urging them to not fall victim to the same belief system.  She writes:
> 
> White Americans will say you are better than American blacks, but please do not fall for this trap. You will be told you behave better, work harder, and are more educated than American blacks. You will be tempted to agree and will sometimes want to shout, “YES, I’M NOT LIKE THEM, WE AFRICANS ARE DIFFERENT!” Just don’t…don’t even think it.
> 
> The praise of your acquired characteristic and culture becomes a justification for white Americans to perpetuate discriminatory treatments towards American blacks. These statements of praise have an underlying message of, “If Africans can do so well then surely racism has nothing to do with anything, therefore, American Blacks are to be blamed for their condition in America”. This problematic line of reasoning sustains cultural racism. I beg of you, refrain from nodding in agreement when you receive such faulty praise.
> 
> Indeed, West Indians, like the African immigrants described in Seppou’s letter, are guilty of the same misdeeds. In wanting to carve out a place for ourselves in a society where being black places you on the bottom rung, we have perpetuated the belief that we are better than our African American counterparts.
> 
> Caribbean culture and African culture _are_ different than African American culture. But when we celebrate our uniqueness, it should never be to shame African American culture.
> 
> Source



This must be regional. I've never encountered this us vs them mentality but I'm in the Deep South. It bewilders me that other black immigrants feel superior to me or Native Black people because we are different. This us nonesense. Smh every time.


----------



## GraceJones

CurlyNiquee said:


> I have noticed a certain superiority among _some _foreign Blacks. I've always been highly offended at the thought that they might think they're better than us. But then later realized that it is very much about divide and conquer. Only difference between West Indians and us is a boat stop. White people use their ignorance of American history against them.


I reading a study once that said the poorer WIs usually identified as AA by the first or second generation WI-Americans, meanwhile the richer did not. They still identified with their main culture. I thought that was interesting.

My family is WI but all of my external identifiers are AA. I was born and raised here, I walk and talk like an AA. If I didn't tell you my family was WI and you never met them, you would never know. So much of American culture is taken from AA culture so IDK how any American can say that they are separate from AA culture. I guess I have to acknowledge that more readily because I'm black.


----------



## CurlyNiquee

prettynatural said:


> This must be regional. I've never encountered this us vs them mentality but I'm in the Deep South. It bewilders me that other black immigrants feel superior to me or Native Black people because we are different. This us nonesense. Smh every time.



I was befriended by a Rwandan years ago and found myself in the company of many Africans from various countries. There was definitely an air of superiority amoung some of them. Maybe it's not something the average AA would experience if they don't move in circles that put you contact with foreign blacks.


----------



## Xaragua

kanozas said:


> Let me tell ya....you can get whisteled at (not in the sexy kinda way) for having natural hair.  You can and will get passed over for jobs for looking a certain way.  Incidentally, in PR, I was applying for a position while in school with a govt. dept. and a Haitian woman was HORRIBLY evil to me in the interview.  I actually broke down and cried later.  That's when someone told me how Haitians live hell in PR and turn on others they view as competition .  Then I remembered after-the-fact that this interviewer and head of a certain dept.  (very influential woman) made mention of it.  She was very dark-skinned, had 1 inch short tight afro....said that people openly called  her a "monkey" on the job.  !!  SMH.  And then I began to notice how girls with loose curls or straight hair faired better than those who didn't look that way - mostly Black folks from other Islands like British V.I.  It's real as a muva.  *And I could be wrong, but in Haiti, having relaxed hair is a show of status considering the extreme poverty there*.


Having a relaxer does not show status, anybody in haiti can get a relaxer


----------



## MsSanz92

sharifeh said:


> well good for her for admitting that and overcoming it
> i think the story with the white dorm mate was just to prove a point, wouldn't be surprised if that never happened
> 
> my family is half west indian and while they always emphasize how different the culture is, they were not critical and i never got the feeling that they thought they were better, which I'm thankful for



IA. My dad's family is African (Liberian specifically) and my mom is AA, and I never got that sense of superiority from him or his family. Granted, Liberia's history is different from other West African countries, and Liberian culture has a lot of American, and specifically Black American influence because of the Americo-Liberian population. I can't believe that in 2016 that some immigrant Blacks are still falling for the okey-doke and really believe that White people actually give a damn about them. All of this false propaganda is a set up to keep Black people divided, and I will go as far as to say that the same "immigrant Blacks vs. African Americans" rhetoric can be extended to Afro-Latinos and not just West Indians and Africans. I've seen some Afro-Latinos who openly proclaim their Blackness still carry this "I'm better than Black Americans" aura to them, which is dumbfounding as hell to me.


----------



## CaraWalker

Ganjababy said:


> Not all Black Africans who feel a sense of superiority over AA get it from white peoples validation of them.
> 
> Some have never lived in the US and so have no interaction with these U.S. divide to conquer whites. Some of this superiority complex stems from the fact that AA's (and other black slave descendants in the diaspora) are descended from slaves and they lost their African culture. Some Africans see us as culture-less slave descendants who are confused about our identities. They see us as black but not of them. Almost alien, second class cousins.
> 
> Not everyone's views are nuanced through the white/black gaze...



like i said, im not super familiar with this queer inferiority complex, and given that the writer of this article specifically cited white acceptance as the cause of, and destructive force to, her self loathing opinions, i assumed that was the case. her views were nuanced through that gaze and no one in the thread had contradicted it.


----------



## CaraWalker

LoveisYou said:


> So much division. Of course not everyone feels that way but happens on both sides. There are so many kinds of divisive politics among human beings.
> 
> The only thing I have to say about this particular topic. Some ppl get so angry when foreign blacks show national pride. If  I was born and raised outside the U.S. Then why are you so upset that I claim my nationality? It's a very U.S. centric viewpoint that I don't understand. Can we at least agree that the African Diaspora is diverse and that black ppl are...everywhere.


who? nobody cares. this is the equivalent of "i get made fun of for talking white"  i swear to you nobody cares about your special snowflake nationalism


----------



## MsSanz92

Honey Bee said:


> Thank you for providing an example of the behavior in the op. I was wondering when the 'Yeah, but...' would start.



I love how immigrant Blacks are always so quick to assume that AAs make "excuses" for not being successful, ignoring several things:

1) There are many successful and affluent Black American people and subcultures, that unfortunately, are very elitist and you will never have access to simply because you're an immigrant Black. Some immigrant Blacks sit here and talk a bunch of crap about how lazy AAs are, when they live in the hood. Most immigrants who come here live in large urban cities in lower income communities, so of course the people there aren't the most successful and ambitious!

2) They also are ignorant of the crippling institutional racism that has outcasted many Black people from moving up on the social ladder. Just like in their home countries, there is stifling poverty there. Don't think because the US is a first world nation that poverty just magically disappears. People forget that the "mentality" of poverty is a result of the real social and political hindrances in this country against the social upward mobility of Black people. The level of institutionalized racism is to a magnitude that most immigrant Blacks can't even fathom, because such a system doesn't exist in their home countries. Most Black immigrants come from predominately Black societies, so they never really had to live in a predominately White society that at its foundation is built and sustains itself by doing EVERY AND ANY THING possible to ensure that Black people remain on the bottom of the totem pole. It's systems, it's not just about people being lazy.

3) Not all immigrant Blacks are successful and work hard; there's tons who also are criminals and unproductive members of this society. The knife cuts both ways and I'm sick of people preaching this idea that AAs are just lazy and that all Black immigrant are prospering and it's just NOT TRUE. I know many immigrant Blacks who appear to have success because they choose to work multiple jobs and sacrifice everything to sustain a fake lifestyle, only to either literally work themselves to death, or lose it all because they've taken too much on their plate. One example of this is here in NYC; during the housing bust in 2007-2008, many immigrant Blacks bought overpriced houses in parts of Brooklyn/Queens with subprime mortgages and were left destitute, just to prove the point that they're "better" than these lazy AAs because they have a house. Is that really success though? You're either living in a house that you're under water in, and/or are working crazy hours just to get by.

I say all of this that both groups have successful people, and people who are falling by the wayside, and it makes no sense that BOTH groups are trying to one up each other, when we really face pretty much the same plight in this country.


----------



## LaBelleLL

CaraWalker said:


> who? nobody cares. this is the equivalent of "i get made fun of for talking white"  i swear to you nobody cares about your special snowflake nationalism



You may not, which is great. But in real life - people definitely do.


----------



## FemmeCreole

I did not read the whole article but a lot of W.Is do feel superior and yes there are "other" folks who treat us differently because of where we're from.

But the reason for the superiority complex is pure bs. A lot of us have fed into the AA stereotypes and don't realize we're fighting against our brothers and sisters. It's a divide and conquer tactic and we took the bait.

It is changing though. The younger generation generally do not hold the same perspective.


----------



## FemmeCreole

bajandoc86 said:


> I can't speak for those from the African Continent.
> 
> I grew up going to public school in Barbados with Bajan whites, so I have no fairytales about them (white people as a group).
> 
> I was really referring to the phenomena where some of us (Caribbean people) go over to the USA and do well, and compare themselves to AAs and come to the conclusion that we are just better. Without truly understanding the impact of their history. Look down on them, their culture, but yet refuse to leave. LOL!
> 
> Yes we have similarites i.e. Plantocracy and slavery etc, but how do you compare the American construct to your own when you grew up in a nation that is 95% black, where everyone in politics or most people in business/education etc are black. *For many of us in the Caribbean socioeconomic class trumps race with a dash of colourism.*


Truth


----------



## naturalgyrl5199

This reminds me of a sweet kid I met in grad school (he was in undergrad at an HBCU) who told us his story. Not a lot of light skinned blacks who are fluent in Spanish around. Anyways he was born in DR and came to the US at age 8. He says for a LONG time he never identified as black. He said NO one in his family is mixed with white. His family to his knowledge is black going back generations. But he said you'll rarely ever meet anyone from DR say they are black. He said his attendance at an HBCU changed that when some very dear AA guys he befriended got him straight. He said it was a no-brainer. But he feels he and others from DR with that attitude are brainwashed, they dissociate, and are projecting, and ignore history. His wife is a black AA. He got her to meet his family and they loved her of course....but thought she was SPECIAL. He said he had to explain to her that they had raised him and insisted that he meet and marry a white girl. Which he said he generally was never ever attracted to. It was a very interesting story.


----------



## MsSanz92

naturalgyrl5199 said:


> This reminds me of a sweet kid I met in grad school (he was in undergrad at an HBCU) who told us his story. Not a lot of light skinned blacks who are fluent in Spanish around. Anyways he was born in DR and came to the US at age 8. He says for a LONG time he never identified as black. He said NO one in his family is mixed with white. His family to his knowledge is black going back generations. But he said you'll rarely ever meet anyone from DR say they are black. He said his attendance at an HBCU changed that when some very dear AA guys he befriended got him straight. He said it was a no-brainer. But he feels he and others from DR with that attitude are brainwashed, they dissociate, and are projecting, and ignore history. His wife is a black AA. He got her to meet his family and they loved her of course....but thought she was SPECIAL. He said he had to explain to her that they had raised him and insisted that he meet and marry a white girl. Which he said he generally was never ever attracted to. It was a very interesting story.



I know some Dominicans like this who only considered themselves Black once they came to the US and became exposed either to AAs who got them together, and/or went to college and dealt with some blatant racial incident with White people. It's mind boggling how oppressive and cancerous colonialism and White supremacy has been to people across the African Diaspora. Many Dominicans don't call themselves Black because they think Black is a term exclusive to AA people when they're here, and due to their history with Haiti, Black is a term in the DR really only used to describe Haitians. It's a no brainer that most Dominicans have Black ancestry and/or would be considered Black in the American context of race.  I've dated a couple of Dominican guys and either they and/or their families would blend into mine and vice versa, and that includes even the lighter skinned ones. Some people often act like I'm an outlier with my behavior like meeting a respectable attractive nice AA girl is hard/impossible to do. One Dominican guy told me to my face, "you speak really well compared to most Black girls in the Bronx." I was thinking to myself, you can't be this dumb... I swear some people really think that all AAs are hoodrats with no couth. I really hate the media for perpetuating this notion why is it so hard for people to see AAs as a multifaceted group there's over 40 million Black people in America obviously there's going to be as with any large group variation.


----------



## okange76

A lot of these biases are perpetrated by the media. We need to take control of our own messages.  Programs on Africa show only the poor, destitute parts and the air waves are dominated by Feed the Children type pics, Programs on AA are more often than not reality TV drama and half naked video girls and gang bangers on the streets of Chicago and LA,  programs on the Caribbean are all beaches with a focus on the euro sex trades  hot beach boys for hire etc.   Everyone looks at each other like at least I am not primitive or backward like the Africans, or hot blooded and promiscuous like the Caribbeans or a mouthy, lazy welfare layabout like the AA. 

Once we are able to control our own messages, then I believe our relationships will be better.  Instead of us fighting over the left over scraps at the bottom, we should be looking for ways to claw our way back to the top.  All the other minorities are sitting on the sidelines, waiting for us to fight and then stepping on our backs and climbing over the fence before us after we have put in all the work. 

Every time  I attend an event, majority of the time, BP will gravitate towards each other regardless of nationality.  Our attraction to each other as a people is strong.  We need to use that to our benefit.  That is why I use all my hair money at the Nigerian BSS in my neighborhood.   My mother goes all the way to Dudley Station in the AA neighborhood to buy her clothes and makeup from the Black Small Business Owners.  She might as well shop for makeup at Target, CVS or Walgreens 5 min away but she chooses not to.   It's an hour commute by bus and train each way. 

The day President Obama was elected reminded me of how much we are not enemies.    So many non American blacks had parties, my family included and we danced until the wee morning that Saturday after the election.  Kenya had a public holiday and people were dancing in the streets for days.   Many Afro Brazilians that I know were in tears because they finally stopped feeling invisible.  He looks just like them. If we can recapture that moment in blackness, we can prosper as a community. 

We need to get the WM out of our homes and then get to work and rebuild.


----------



## Fine 4s

@LaBelleLL

I hear this often. What do you mean that Haitians aren't West Indian?


----------



## Fine 4s

@ag00
Einh, I've heard disparaging comments about 'Blacks' meaning AAs growing up abroad.
The article is very familiar and def. speaks to her personal journey. Good luck to her.
@okange76 explained the phenomena too well.


----------



## Honey Bee

okange76 said:


> We need to get the WM out of our homes and then get to work and rebuild.


This ain't nothing but the truth. How that looks in Africa is different than in the Caribbean and different than how it looks for us in US, but we all have some work to do shoring up our foundations.


----------



## LoveisYou

CaraWalker said:


> who? nobody cares. this is the equivalent of "i get made fun of for talking white"  i swear to you nobody cares about your special snowflake nationalism




lol, see I like it that you don't care, because you shouldn't....can you please school the folks who do...please?


----------



## michelle81

LoveisYou said:


> lol, see I like it that you don't care, because you shouldn't....can you please school the folks who do...please?



I guess things like that probably vary widely in groups or areas. I work in an area with immigrants from everywhere. Good food brings us all together. Our office pot lucks usually include 7 or 8 different nationalities. All are welcomed.


----------



## MsSanz92

Interesting that people don't consider Haitians West Indian. I personally use WI to refer to people from English speaking Caribbean islands, and people from Belize/the Guyanas, and even to a lesser certain extent, some Central American people like Costa Ricans and Panamanians, as many of them originated from the Caribbean and have Caribbean culture (as in Anglophone Caribbean) even though they're technically part of Latin America. I would also include Haitians and other French/Dutch speaking Caribbean people under the WI umbrella. I wouldn't necessarily call Spanish speaking Caribbean people West Indian because they seem to make it a point in my experience that they're not under the same umbrella and prefer to fall under the mainstream Latino umbrella. I would, however refer to Spanish speaking Caribbean people as Caribbean colloquially, particularly in the instance in reference to someone of mixed West Indian/Spanish speaking Caribbean ancestry.  I know a lot of Caribbean Latinos who call themselves Caribena which in English means Caribbean, so it makes sense to me at least to refer to them as Caribbean, but not necessarily West Indian.


----------



## prettynatural

beingofserenity said:


> Whatever. This stuff goes both ways.  Tons of AAs who feel infinitely superior to WI/Africans.


I don't believe that at all and I've never grew up hearing anything negative about WI people period. Africans and WI are not even on our radar. We are working to feed our families and living our lives to be invested in why another 'foreign' black is better or doing better or worse is a non issue.  Besides, I'm from TN and the Caribbean community is so small that there is more cohesion and inclusion within our groups.  The WI people and Africans to some extent I know are friendly and attend our schools and join our 'elite' clubs and associations.

Well, I am glad the OP has laid down her inner oppression and see people for who they are, people.


----------



## beingofserenity

prettynatural said:


> I don't believe that at all and I've never grew up hearing anything negative about WI people period. Africans and WI are not even on our radar. We are working to feed our families and living our lives to be invested in why another 'foreign' black is better or doing better or worse is a non issue.  Besides, I'm from TN and the Caribbean community is so small that there is more cohesion and inclusion within our groups.  The WI people and Africans to some extent I know are friendly and attend our schools and join our 'elite' clubs and associations.
> 
> Well, I am glad the OP has laid down her inner oppression and see people for who they are, people.



Yeah, you're right. I suppose I just made that all up in my mind.


----------



## prettynatural

beingofserenity said:


> Yeah, you're right. I suppose I just made that all up in my mind.


ah,  don't be facetious. Of course there are AA or black Americans who are racist against Africans and Caribbean. I'm not arguing that and it would be ignorant to not believe the bias exist. My stance or position is,  AA's mistreat or dislike WI and Africans  is not representative of the whole. Case in point, my example of where I currently live and were I was born. There is a very small population of WI that assimilate into the larger dominant group, AA. The African population is much larger and has it's own distinct identity and interactional patterns with the AA  group. So, it stands to reason that this phenomena that the OP is discussing maybe more prevalent in REGIONS were all three of the populations co-exist and because of competition for jobs and resources and cultural differences it would be very likely there are bias against and for each group.

ETA: That is why I and others from my area have not ever grew up with bias against WI in particular because we didn't know any or see any. How can there be when there is little media representation of the WI group. Those who live where WI normally immigrant, I would believe it is different. I am not denying your and anyone else's  struggle but I want to interject that this seems to be a regional issue from my AA lens.  I have sorors who are WI and AA and there are not issues there. I am a licensed mental health professional and have collegues in legal, law enforcement and other medical professions in my region and no big issue. What someone thinks inside their head is there business but outside looking at it, this issue is not a big issue were I live.
That's all I'm saying.


----------



## Menina Preta

I don't think most AAs, who do not live in the Northeast or Miami, have a strong opinion about West Indians, b/c like folks have said we are usually too small of a group to garner much notice in most areas of the US.  Like when I went off to college, I noticed that a lot of Southern, Midwestern, and West Coast Blacks didn't really know anything about West Indian culture or even the different islands, until they met first generation kids of WI descent...


----------



## RoundEyedGirl504

All these types of articles do is confirm how deep white supremacy runs.  She didn't learn that she wasn't any better than AAs, she learned that WHITE PEOPLE don't think she is any better than AAs.  There is a big, big difference there and if the gap will be bridged, it won't be based on that kind of sketchy logic IMO.  

OAN, growing up the stereotypes I heard about Haitians were vicious in a way that I couldn't really put into words as a child, but it made me feel some type of way.  As an adult, and having actually met a few Haitians, the ones I have encountered tended to be more educated and very conservative, the extreme opposite of their reputation in this country at least.  Which makes these articles even stranger to me.


----------



## Supervixen

Growing up AA, I didnt know many blacks of Carribbean or African descent. I was told African men will get you pregnant and go back to Africa on you, African women are mean to AA women and Caribbean people steal. (Fast forward to hs, when the Haitian girl I thought was my bestie stole from me endlessly and would wear the stolen goods to school.)

As a young adult, I used to roll tough with a Haitian girl (not the aforementioned thief) and a Nigerian girl. We had a falling out about something early 20-something women fight over  (not a man or anything serious) and they double teamed me with, "we're not descended from slaves." 

I had never thought of them as anything more or less than other Black people. Learning about their traditions was fascinating.  Needless to say, with an attack on my lineage, I never spoke to either of them again. I was SO HURT--If Haiti/Nigeria are so great and make you better than me/Blacks descended from slaves, why are you here benefitting from being black?  Why are you in an AA sorority? 

Upon moving to NYC and realizing that among the black people I met there, as an AA, I was in the minority, I heard many, mannny, different versions of the aforementioned theme. It was sickening.  At this point, I'll admit, I'm friendly to everyone, and LOVE things like the WI Day parade, but if non-American black people even start with any **** about AAs, my claws come out.


----------



## GraceJones

MsSanz92 said:


> I love how immigrant Blacks are always so quick to assume that AAs make "excuses" for not being successful, ignoring several things:
> 
> 1) There are many successful and affluent Black American people and subcultures, that unfortunately, are very elitist and you will never have access to simply because you're an immigrant Black. Some immigrant Blacks sit here and talk a bunch of crap about how lazy AAs are, when they live in the hood. Most immigrants who come here live in large urban cities in lower income communities, so of course the people there aren't the most successful and ambitious!
> 
> 2) They also are ignorant of the crippling institutional racism that has outcasted many Black people from moving up on the social ladder. Just like in their home countries, there is stifling poverty there. Don't think because the US is a first world nation that poverty just magically disappears. People forget that the "mentality" of poverty is a result of the real social and political hindrances in this country against the social upward mobility of Black people. The level of institutionalized racism is to a magnitude that most immigrant Blacks can't even fathom, because such a system doesn't exist in their home countries. Most Black immigrants come from predominately Black societies, so they never really had to live in a predominately White society that at its foundation is built and sustains itself by doing EVERY AND ANY THING possible to ensure that Black people remain on the bottom of the totem pole. It's systems, it's not just about people being lazy.
> 
> 3) Not all immigrant Blacks are successful and work hard; there's tons who also are criminals and unproductive members of this society. The knife cuts both ways and I'm sick of people preaching this idea that AAs are just lazy and that all Black immigrant are prospering and it's just NOT TRUE. I know many immigrant Blacks who appear to have success *because they choose to work multiple jobs and sacrifice everything to sustain a fake lifestyle, only to either literally work themselves to death, or lose it all because they've taken too much on their plate. One example of this is here in NYC; during the housing bust in 2007-2008, many immigrant Blacks bought overpriced houses in parts of Brooklyn/Queens with subprime mortgages and were left destitute, just to prove the point that they're "better" than these lazy AAs because they have a house. Is that really success though? Your'e either living in the house that you're under water in, and/or are working crazy hours just to get by.*
> 
> I say all of this that both groups have successful people, and people who are falling by the wayside, and it makes no sense that BOTH groups are trying to one up each other, when we really face pretty much the same plight in this country.




THE BOLDED IS REAL! Some people move back home because they're like  I can't take it anymore. This country is going to kill me. You have to work SOOO hard just to get by whereas you could at least be more resourceful with farmland if you were back home. You could at least raise some animals and try to farm or even trade something for some food.


----------



## CaraWalker

Supeervixen said:


> Growing up AA, I didnt know many blacks of Carribbean or African descent. I was told African men will get you pregnant and go back to Africa on you, African women are mean to AA women and Caribbean people steal. (Fast forward to hs, when the Haitian girl I thought was my bestie stole from me endlessly and would wear the stolen goods to school.)
> 
> As a young adult, I used to roll tough with a Haitian girl (not the aforementioned thief) and a Nigerian girl. We had a falling out about something early 20-something women fight over  (not a man or anything serious) and they double teamed me with, "we're not descended from slaves."
> 
> I had never thought of them as anything more or less than other Black people. Learning about their traditions was fascinating.  Needless to say, with an attack on my lineage, I never spoke to either of them again. I was SO HURT--If Haiti/Nigeria are so great and make you better than me/Blacks descended from slaves, why are you here benefitting from being black?  Why are you in an AA sorority?
> 
> Upon moving to NYC and realizing that among the black people I met there, as an AA, I was in the minority, I heard many, mannny, different versions of the aforementioned theme. It was sickening.  At this point, I'll admit, I'm friendly to everyone, and LOVE things like the WI Day parade, but if non-American black people even start with any **** about AAs, my claws come out.


this forum was the first time i'd ever been verbally exposed to the idea that being a slave descendent was shameful. i deadass believed black people thought of that as evidence of strength and resilience.


----------



## Supervixen

CaraWalker said:


> this forum was the first time i'd ever been verbally exposed to the idea that being a slave descendent was shameful. i deadass believed black people thought of that as evidence of strength and resilience.




Me too. That's another reason I was so offended. That comment rocked my whole little world.


----------



## Brwnbeauti

beingofserenity said:


> Whatever. This stuff goes both ways.  Tons of AAs who feel infinitely superior to WI/Africans.


See I've never encountered this. Ive always had an "we all black" attitude- as have the peeps around me. Maybe that's a unique AA concept-


----------



## sharifeh

Supeervixen said:


> Growing up AA, I didnt know many blacks of Carribbean or African descent. I was told African men will get you pregnant and go back to Africa on you, African women are mean to AA women and Caribbean people steal. (Fast forward to hs, when the Haitian girl I thought was my bestie stole from me endlessly and would wear the stolen goods to school.)
> 
> As a young adult, I used to roll tough with a Haitian girl (not the aforementioned thief) and a Nigerian girl. We had a falling out about something early 20-something women fight over  (not a man or anything serious) and they double teamed me with, "we're not descended from slaves."
> 
> I had never thought of them as anything more or less than other Black people. Learning about their traditions was fascinating.  Needless to say, with an attack on my lineage, I never spoke to either of them again. I was SO HURT--If Haiti/Nigeria are so great and make you better than me/Blacks descended from slaves, why are you here benefitting from being black?  Why are you in an AA sorority?
> 
> Upon moving to NYC and realizing that among the black people I met there, as an AA, I was in the minority, I heard many, mannny, different versions of the aforementioned theme. It was sickening.  At this point, I'll admit, I'm friendly to everyone, and LOVE things like the WI Day parade, but if non-American black people even start with any **** about AAs, my claws come out.




whoa....those two girls were NOT friends 
what the hell?? What kind of warped mentality....?


----------



## somewhereinbtwn

Supeervixen said:


> Growing up AA, I didnt know many blacks of Carribbean or African descent. I was told African men will get you pregnant and go back to Africa on you, African women are mean to AA women and Caribbean people steal. (Fast forward to hs, when the Haitian girl I thought was my bestie stole from me endlessly and would wear the stolen goods to school.)
> 
> As a young adult, I used to roll tough with a Haitian girl (not the aforementioned thief) and a Nigerian girl. We had a falling out about something early 20-something women fight over  (not a man or anything serious) *and they double teamed me with, "we're not descended from slaves." *
> 
> I had never thought of them as anything more or less than other Black people. Learning about their traditions was fascinating.  Needless to say, with an attack on my lineage, I never spoke to either of them again. I was SO HURT--If Haiti/Nigeria are so great and make you better than me/Blacks descended from slaves, why are you here benefitting from being black?  Why are you in an AA sorority?
> 
> Upon moving to NYC and realizing that among the black people I met there, as an AA, I was in the minority, I heard many, mannny, different versions of the aforementioned theme. It was sickening.  At this point, I'll admit, I'm friendly to everyone, and LOVE things like the WI Day parade, but if non-American black people even start with any **** about AAs, my claws come out.



Wait the Hatian girl too!? LMAO.


----------



## Supervixen

somewhereinbtwn said:


> Wait the Hatian girl too!? LMAO.




RIGHT!  Which was another BIG WTF moment for me.


----------



## okange76

Everyone has encountered an other black who has done them wrong. My thing is don't paint every other black you meet with the same brush otherwise you are no better than WP who paint all of us with the same brush. I don't rep all Kenyans or Africans for that matter. I'm just me. If I hurt you, unless you've met all Kenyan or African women, then you can't judge all of them by my poor behavior. 

We complain about black people being seen as lazy, liars, thugs, hood rats or welfare queens and refuse to accept that they represent us when dealing with other races. Why can't we give each other the same treatment internally? 

Why are we fighting so hard to hate each other?  What is the collective benefit?


----------



## yardyspice

RoundEyedGirl504 said:


> All these types of articles do is confirm how deep white supremacy runs.  She didn't learn that she wasn't any better than AAs, she learned that WHITE PEOPLE don't think she is any better than AAs.  There is a big, big difference there and if the gap will be bridged, it won't be based on that kind of sketchy logic IMO.
> 
> OAN, growing up the stereotypes I heard about Haitians were vicious in a way that I couldn't really put into words as a child, but it made me feel some type of way.  As an adult, and having actually met a few Haitians, the ones I have encountered tended to be more educated and very conservative, the extreme opposite of their reputation in this country at least.  Which makes these articles even stranger to me.




The only conspiracy I believe in is that there's a deliberate attempt to make sure that black groups in this country don't get along. There's power in numbers and whites realize that it is  in their best interest to keep us separated. I believe this is the case because of what happened with the first Europeans and African Americans where there were deliberate moves made to make sure the two groups didn't organize.


----------



## naturalmanenyc

I have close friends from Antigua, Jamaica, Tobago, Bahamas, Haiti, Nigeria as well as American Black friends and I didn't realize this was something one needed to "learn".  
Or maybe I just am not privy to the private conversation where things like this are discussed.


----------



## MsSanz92

naturalmanenyc said:


> I have close friends from Antigua, Jamaica, Tobago, Bahamas, Haiti, Nigeria as well as American Black friends and I didn't realize this was something one needed to "learn".
> Or maybe I just am not privy to the private conversation where things like this are discussed.



I think there's a class/generational element to it. I noticed that as Black immigrants move into the 2nd and 3rd generation and further up the social ladder, the division lessens, as many Black immigrants intermarry with AAs and/or run in social circles/organizations like BGLOs that were created by AAs. Many of the recent immigrants tend to be more clannish, but I think it varies by where the Black immigrant comes from and where they live in the US.


----------



## yardyspice

MsSanz92 said:


> I think there's a class/generational element to it. I noticed that as Black immigrants move into the 2nd and 3rd generation and further up the social ladder, the division lessens, as many Black immigrants intermarry AAs and/or run in social circles/organizations like BGLOs that were created by AAs. Many of the recent immigrants tend to be more clannish, but I think it varies by where the Black immigrant comes from and where they live in the US.



Studies also show that the education of the 2nd and 3rd gen is on par with AAs.


----------



## MsSanz92

GraceJones said:


> THE BOLDED IS REAL! Some people move back home because they're like  I can't take it anymore. This country is going to kill me. You have to work SOOO hard just to get by whereas you could at least be more resourceful with farmland if you were back home. You could at least raise some animals and try to farm or even trade something for some food.



There's a lot more research developing around immigrants who return back to their home countries after living in the US for years, sometimes even decades. Much of this happened during the Great Recession because of the points I mentioned earlier. Why continue to work like a slave in a country where your hard work is barely compensated, on top of having to deal with culture shock, homesickness, racism, etc.? For some immigrants, they bust their asses and are able to provide their kids way more than they could have had they stayed in their home country, but for some, the stress is too much to bare.


----------



## Kiowa

As a black immigrant to the US Of WI heritage, perspectives are certainly different. I don't think it is a better vs worse situation though...the OP thinking her hair would protect sounds naive...However,WP don't make the distinction, and can be largely ignorant...


----------



## kanozas

It seems like, no matter what, people with flawed perspective still think their opinion is the truth.  When you consider that the areas most inhabited by descendants/immigrants from the WI's are large cities in the East and in Florida, I still don't comprehend how people arrive at the conclusion that stereotypes against traditional AA's are truthful.  If immigrants encounter crime, poorly educated and low moral values in neighborhoods and cities of their own makeup  (whether recent immigrants or 2,3rd, 4th generation), how are AA's being targeted as culpable?  Few have still addressed the biggest elephant in that article - this perception of AA's.  Screw her relaxed dubi's and such.


----------



## Femmefatal1981

People often say negative things about their culture to others. My Haitians step mother told me to never date a Haitian man. She said they were lazy and abusive. At 14 she was the only Haitian I knew so I just took her work for it. Fast forward to college at FAMU and I avoided the Haitian dishes like the plague. Shoot...I avoided all men from south FL. Now of course I learned that she was incorrect but she planted that negative seed about her own culture. I've heard the same from Naija women, Kenyan women, etc. None of them
are married to guys from their own country. But the black American women I know who are married to these guys seem to be quite happy.


As far as saying negative things about non American blacks goes, I didn't grow up with them so it was a nose issue. My first experience was in college and it was negative. It was with a chick ( her sister used to be a popular poster here) who loved to play the struggle Olympics. No matter what you went through her experience back home was worse...I never figured her out. I didn't let her turn me off from having friends from other places.  Aside from that I met lots of cool black people from all over. Some weren't so cool and they were just as likely to be from the US as they were from any where else.


----------



## CarmelCupcake

I am not to fond of how some black people from other countries are only black when it is convenient for them.  I have a Nigerian friend who is a first generation american.  She recently told me that she gets upset when people do not consider her Nigerian since she was born and raised in America and not Nigeria.  I mean it really upsets her.  She has told me that she does not consider herself African American.  She states that she is Nigerian. After she told me this recently, I thought back to the times for instance when her and her sister were stating that black African American women have attitudes.  My thing is, if they do not consider themselves African American, they need not talk about us in my presence again. Also, many (not all) Africans, Carribeans, Hatians, etc. will swear up and down that they are not black, but I bet when it comes to applying to grad school, many will check off african american in a heart beat for the affirmative action advantage.


----------



## NijaG

CarmelCupcake said:


> I am not to fond of how some black people from other countries are only black when it is convenient for them.  I have a Nigerian friend who is a first generation american.  She recently told me that she gets upset when people do not consider her Nigerian since she was born and raised in America and not Nigeria.  I mean it really upsets her.  She has told me that she does not consider herself African American.  She states that she is Nigerian. After she told me this recently, I thought back to the times for instance when her and her sister were stating that black African American women have attitudes.  My thing is, if they do not consider themselves African American, they need not talk about us in my presence again. Also, many (not all) Africans, Carribeans, Hatians, etc. will swear up and down that they are not black, but I bet when it comes to applying to grad school, many will check off african american in a heart beat for the affirmative action advantage.



*What are you annoyed about though?*

I thought the general consensus on this board by African-Americans was that you are a separate distinct group and their own ETHNICITY. Many here have said they don't feel a connection to "Africa" and some don't even want/like the African designation and prefer to be called Black-Americans.

Majority of the census forms I fill out say African-American/Black. When I check that box, I am mentally ticking the Black part of designation, because I consider AA's to be their own ethnicity. That is not a bad thing and AA's should be happy and proud of their ethnicity. All the racial groups have their own distinct sub-groups/ethnicities. 

I'm Nigerian/American and my ethnicity is Igbo.

In Nigeria, if I'm mistaken for any other ethnic group (yoruba, efik, etc), I will usually correct the person and let them know I'm Igbo.
In another African or majority black country, if I'm taken as one of the locals, depending on situation, I let them know I'm Nigerian. If they are familiar with Nigeria, most will ask what group/ethnicity.
In the States..... it depends. With AA's, and other black groups the Nigerian parts comes into play as way to identify. With non-black and White people, if the conversation gets that far, then the Nigerian part comes into play. If not, they'll assume I'm AA.

Race is different than ethnicity. Same for nationality


----------



## RocStar

NijaG said:


> *I thought the general consensus on this board by African-Americans was that you are a separate distinct group and their own ETHNICITY. *Many here have said they don't feel a connection to "Africa" and some don't even want/like the African designation and prefer to be called Black-Americans.



There is never really a general consensus on this topic or any other topic on this board.


----------



## Femmefatal1981

NijaG said:


> *What are you annoyed about though?*
> 
> I thought the general consensus on this board by African-Americans was that you are a separate distinct group and their own ETHNICITY. Many here have said they don't feel a connection to "Africa" and some don't even want/like the African designation and prefer to be called Black-Americans.
> 
> Majority of the census forms I fill out say African-American/Black. When I check that box, I am mentally ticking the Black part of designation, because I consider AA's to be their own ethnicity. That is not a bad thing and AA's should be happy and proud of their ethnicity. All the racial groups have their own distinct sub-groups/ethnicities.
> 
> I'm Nigerian/American and my ethnicity is Igbo.
> 
> In Nigeria, if I'm mistaken for any other ethnic group (yoruba, efik, etc), I will usually correct the person and let them know I'm Igbo.
> In another African or majority black country, if I'm taken as one of the locals, depending on situation, I let them know I'm Nigerian. If they are familiar with Nigeria, most will ask what group/ethnicity.
> In the States..... it depends. With AA's, and other black groups the Nigerian parts comes into play as way to identify. With non-black and White people, if the conversation gets that far, then the Nigerian part comes into play. If not, they'll assume I'm AA.
> 
> Race is different than ethnicity. Same for nationality


She didn't say AA...she said they don't want claim black. That's different. We are definitely a different ethnic groups.


----------



## LeftRightRepeat

She's using the two terms (black and AA)  to mean AA.  There's no way that many people from Africa and the  Caribbean could claim that they're not black.


----------



## bajandoc86

Femmefatal1981 said:


> She didn't say AA...she said they don't want claim black. That's different. We are definitely a different ethnic groups.





CarmelCupcake said:


> I am not to fond of how some black people from other countries are only black when it is convenient for them.  I have a Nigerian friend who is a first generation american.  She recently told me that she gets upset when people do not consider her Nigerian since she was born and raised in America and not Nigeria.  I mean it really upsets her.  She has told me that she does not consider herself African American.  She states that she is Nigerian. After she told me this recently, I thought back to the times for instance when her and her sister were stating that black African American women have attitudes.  My thing is, if they do not consider themselves African American, they need not talk about us in my presence again. *Also, many (not all) Africans, Carribeans, Hatians, etc. will swear up and down that they are not black, but I bet when it comes to applying to grad school, many will check off african american in a heart beat for the affirmative action advantage.*



@Femmefatal1981 

She used them interchangeably. Ain't no way people from the English speaking Caribbean who are black (not mixed - and maj of those who are mixed with something else identify as black too, unless you live in T&T or Jamaica where there is a much higher percentage of mixing) talking about they don't identify as black.
When census comes around >95% of the population tick that box that has Black next to it. 

The 1st generation persons from the African continent or the Caribbean likely identify as black but not AA. Further down the line that changes to AA - usually by 2nd or 3rd generation.


----------



## NijaG

Femmefatal1981 said:


> She didn't say AA...she said they don't want claim black. That's different. We are definitely a different ethnic groups.



I'm guessing black also means AA in the context of what she wrote. I know black-american/AA are used interchangeably lots of times.  My understanding is that African-American is the newer term used as the racial/ethnicity identifier for black people in the U.S. whose ancestors were part of the slaves and/or freed people of African origin from at least 150 years or more ago.


----------



## Amarilles

AA means black but black doesn't necessarily mean AA. I'm black, I'm American. I was born in DR and became American thanks to my parents becoming citizens, but clearly the AA ID would not apply to me.

This thread is all over the place, but I'm glad the writer of the article came to her senses. My own struggle was not thinking myself above AAs but simply  denying my black, and living in Miami didn't help I guess. I woke up as soon as I left, when I moved to Canada. Thankfully not by racist wp but by the simple solidarity I felt around other black people. The attention I attracted was mostly black and so society naturally woke me up. Sometimes I wish I had stayed asleep though because the things that used to go over my head no longer do and boy, who got time to deal with white America's daily racism upsets? My family (with a few exceptions) is still stuck in their ways and it's sad to see. 

Maybe there's indeed something to the notion of the "exotic" black..? My bestie here in France is from Burkina Faso and boooy does she have ish to say about the white French, yet she reports nothing but lovely experiences with white Americans. However me, as a black (American) person I've had not one negative experience in France. My friend has her explanation for that however, as she sees a difference between her black and the "bright brown" black folks of slave descendants.

And I too didn't know Haiti identified as WI?? I would've never guessed, and we share the island!


----------



## silverbuttons

A couple of things...

1. Haitians are west Indian and Latino. 
2. Black people  (of all nationalities) want someone to look down on. That's what keeps us from mobilizing. 
3. She changed her whole philosophy because of some white people? 
4. We are way too busy trying to pull each other down to notice that this all stems from white supremacy. 
5. Few Haitians love white people, but some have been damaged by years of occupation and white do-gooders.
6. Haitians were treated like viruses in the US... so I can imagine that some of the vitriol between the two communities stem from that. 
7. The only way to work together is to acknowledge the pain of other black groups. If you keep dismissing their experience, of course they won't want to put in the work. 


We seriously have had this conversation too many times... yet we still ain't learned ****.


----------



## MsSanz92

Amarilles said:


> AA means black but black doesn't necessarily mean AA. I'm black, I'm American. I was born in DR and became American thanks to my parents becoming citizens, but clearly the AA ID would not apply to me.
> 
> This thread is all over the place, but I'm glad the writer of the article came to her senses. My own struggle was not thinking myself above AAs but simply  denying my black, and living in Miami didn't help I guess. I woke up as soon as I left, when I moved to Canada. Thankfully not by racist wp but by the simple solidarity I felt around other black people. The attention I attracted was mostly black and so society naturally woke me up. Sometimes I wish I had stayed asleep though because the things that used to go over my head no longer do and boy, who got time to deal with white America's daily racism upsets? My family (with a few exceptions) is still stuck in their ways and it's sad to see.
> 
> Maybe there's indeed something to the notion of the "exotic" black..? My bestie here in France is from Burkina Faso and boooy does she have ish to say about the white French, yet she reports nothing but lovely experiences with white Americans. However me, as a black (American) person I've had not one negative experience in France. My friend has her explanation for that however, as she sees a difference between her black and the "bright brown" black folks of slave descendants.
> 
> And I too didn't know Haiti identified as WI?? I would've never guessed, and we share the island!



You raise a lot of interesting points I noticed myself. The "exotic Black" thing definitely exists not only in Europe but here in the States as well. For example, there are Black American men who say they don't like or date Black American women and bash them, yet go to places like the DR and Brazil to sleep with Afro-Latina women. You even see it here in NY where these same Black men place Afro-Latinas above AA women because they're "exotic". It's sickening quite frankly and continues to perpetuate the character assassination against AA women in particular. 

I know a lot of Africans complain about racism they face in Europe, but in a weird way, AAs and other "more acceptable Blacks" like Caribbean Black people don't get the brunt as much from racism (I won't say that they're completely immune, because Europeans can be racist as hell against all Black, shoot any non-European person).

I never knew so many people didn't see Haitians as not West Indian; so if they weren't West Indian then what were they? They aren't considered Latino, even though they speak a Latin language. I pretty much lumped anyone who goes to the West Indian parade in NYC in large numbers as West Indian LOL. I actually went this past year and the Haitians definitely ran the show!


----------



## Topsido

I think the nuances of racism is lost on non AA blacks until they get entrenched in the American culture. It's hard to recognise what you don't know. Most immigrants know something is off but they think working harder will solve the problem until they're faced with the reality of racism.


----------



## ThirdEyeBeauty

Look how the wp train bp so well that they have black people of the Caribbean thinking someone from Haiti cannot be considered West Indian but someone from Belize or Honduras can be West Indian.  It was black people sent to different parts of the Americas for the advantages of wp. West Indian is a made up word for generally bp.  All that matters is people have different cultures and we can either choose to learn differences and similarities or not.  How you react to those differences and similarities is on you.


----------



## kanozas

I think we all (all colors) are "trained" from the past to view things a certain way.   Look at "Indians."  they are in India.  Native Americans aren't Indians but it's on the treaty.  People from India get mad they use the term.  Meanings change.  I guess if somebody is Dougla, they'd be West Indian in the Americas but even those have a hard time affirming their Indianness with their mother country.  This isn't Hindustan over here and even "West Indian" is a misnomer.


----------



## Menina Preta

I am confused why people are investing so much significance into the label "West Indian" in regards to who is and who is not included.  It is not the same type of label like African American. It's a label for people who come from the same geographical region who share cultural similarities, but are still distinct nationalities.  Like I don't think any Haitian is losing sleep about some folks not considering them West Indian and I think most Haitians don't even care to use the term as an identifier. In my experience, it is usually folks from smaller islands or whose background includes a mix of different islands who use the term so they don't have to go into a long explanation about where they're from or have to hear someone say "oh I've never heard of that place. Is it like Jamaica?"

And I definitely do not think of Haitians as Latinos at all...


----------



## CaraWalker

NijaG said:


> *What are you annoyed about though?*
> 
> I thought the general consensus on this board by African-Americans was that you are a separate distinct group and their own ETHNICITY. Many here have said they don't feel a connection to "Africa" and some don't even want/like the African designation and prefer to be called Black-Americans.
> 
> Majority of the census forms I fill out say African-American/Black. When I check that box, I am mentally ticking the Black part of designation, because I consider AA's to be their own ethnicity. That is not a bad thing and AA's should be happy and proud of their ethnicity. All the racial groups have their own distinct sub-groups/ethnicities.
> 
> I'm Nigerian/American and my ethnicity is Igbo.
> 
> In Nigeria, if I'm mistaken for any other ethnic group (yoruba, efik, etc), I will usually correct the person and let them know I'm Igbo.
> In another African or majority black country, if I'm taken as one of the locals, depending on situation, I let them know I'm Nigerian. If they are familiar with Nigeria, most will ask what group/ethnicity.
> In the States..... it depends. With AA's, and other black groups the Nigerian parts comes into play as way to identify. With non-black and White people, if the conversation gets that far, then the Nigerian part comes into play. If not, they'll assume I'm AA.
> 
> Race is different than ethnicity. Same for nationality



i was with you until you got to the part about being nigerian american, which is LITERALLY a synonymous reiteration of "african american"  so that leads me to believe this is about a need to separate. i would not feel some kind of way if people mistook me for african but it seems yall would feel a need to correct someone if they date thought of you as "african american." you told it.


----------



## FemmeFatale

Menina Preta said:


> I am confused why people are investing so much significance into the label "West Indian" in regards to who is and who is not included.  It is not the same type of label like African American. It's a label for people who come from the same geographical region who share cultural similarities, but are still distinct nationalities.  Like I don't think any Haitian is losing sleep about some folks not considering them West Indian and I think most Haitians don't even care to use the term as an identifier. In my experience, it is usually folks from smaller islands or whose background includes a mix of different islands who use the term so they don't have to go into a long explanation about where they're from or have to hear someone say "oh I've never heard of that place. Is it like Jamaica?"
> 
> And I definitely do not think of Haitians as Latinos at all...



Thanks. I was starting to feel like I was in the twilight zone.


----------



## LeftRightRepeat

Yeah when i think W. Indian I think  British West Indian  (islands colonized by England).  But if someone tells me that Haiti is W. Indian my only response is "oh, ok" .    Always just thought of it as in the Caribbean,   but tbh it doesn't really make a  difference as to how I think of , or relate to Haiti and Haitians. 

I lived in Miami for a long time so I was around a lot of Caribbean folk.


----------



## CaraWalker

kanozas said:


> I think we all (all colors) are "trained" from the past to view things a certain way.   Look at "Indians."  they are in India.  Native Americans aren't Indians but it's on the treaty.  People from India get mad they use the term.  Meanings change.  I guess if somebody is Dougla, they'd be West Indian in the Americas but even those have a hard time affirming their Indianness with their mother country.  This isn't Hindustan over here and even "West Indian" is a misnomer.



oh wow. "West India" was actually going right over my head this entire thread


ThirdEyeBeauty said:


> Look how the wp train bp so well that they have black people of the Caribbean thinking someone from Haiti cannot be considered West Indian but someone from Belize or Honduras can be West Indian.  It was black people sent to different parts of the Americas for the advantages of wp. West Indian is a made up word for generally bp.  All that matters is people have different cultures and we can either choose to learn differences and similarities or not.  How you react to those differences and similarities is on you.



yeah but its been politically incorrect to call natives "indian" for a long time now. we make a point of saying "native american" or "indigenous."


----------



## ThirdEyeBeauty

CaraWalker said:


> i was with you until you got to the part about being nigerian american, which is LITERALLY a synonymous reiteration of "african american"  so that leads me to believe this is about a need to separate. i would not feel some kind of way if people mistook me for african but it seems yall would feel a need to correct someone if they date thought of you as "african american." you told it.


I was thinking the same thing when I got to that statement.  To me if you are black and moved to live in America, you have become a part of African American with heritages and cultural influences from elsewhere.


----------



## LeftRightRepeat

CaraWalker said:


> i was with you until you got to the part about being nigerian american, which is LITERALLY a synonymous reiteration of "african american"  so that leads me to believe this is about a need to separate. i would not feel some kind of way if people mistook me for african but it seems yall would feel a need to correct someone if they date thought of you as "african american." you told it.




I see where she's saying that with AA and other blacks it's obvious that she's not AA , so the Nigerian identifier comes into play.   With whites and other non-blacks it may or may not come up because Whites tend to group blacks together and don't really see the differences.

I  don't see where she's saying that she's trying to separate herself from AAs.  

With me it's pretty obvious, (because of my accent)....i get the "where are you from" question  from pretty much everyone..even another  Jamaican   ( i was shocked when she told me that I sounded like I was from Trinidad )


----------



## Menina Preta

FemmeFatale said:


> Thanks. I was starting to feel like I was in the twilight zone.



Ya, it was odd.  Inferring that by not including Haitians as West Indians that we are letting the White man tear us apart?  Huh?  Wha?  LOL.  Most Haitians just say "I'm Haitian," b/c it's a big country and most folks have heard of Haiti.  Whereas for smaller islands, people sometimes just say "I'm West Indian" to avoid all the explaining and geography lessons, lol.


----------



## CaraWalker

LeftRightRepeat said:


> I see where she's saying that with AA and other blacks it's obvious that she's not AA , so the Nigerian identifier comes into play.   With whites and other non-blacks it may or may not come up because Whites tend to group blacks together and don't really see the differences.
> 
> I  don't see where she's saying that she's trying to separate herself from AAs.
> 
> With me it's pretty obvious, (because of my accent)....i get the "where are you from" question  from pretty much everyone..


what im saying is for me its not necessary to make a distinction because they are both technically accurate. i get asked where i am from from time to time as if im not from here. people thinking im from somewhere in africa is technically correct, so its not worth correcting. people assuming a black person is an african american even though their actual heritage is from an african country is also technically correct. 

if somebody asked specifically then yeah i could see elaborating but if people are going "actually im nigerian" when someone calls them african american to me thats saying something...


----------



## Menina Preta

LeftRightRepeat said:


> I see where she's saying that with AA and other blacks it's obvious that she's not AA , so the Nigerian identifier comes into play.   With whites and other non-blacks it may or may not come up because Whites tend to group blacks together and don't really see the differences.
> 
> I  don't see where she's saying that she's trying to separate herself from AAs.
> 
> With me it's pretty obvious, (because of my accent)....i get the "where are you from" question  from pretty much everyone..even another  Jamaican   ( i was shocked when she told me that I sounded like I was from Trinidad )



Ya, I didn't see it either.  She said if it comes up then she tells them.  I do not see the big deal with doing that.


----------



## LoveisYou

CaraWalker said:


> i was with you until you got to the part about being nigerian american, which is LITERALLY a synonymous reiteration of "african american"  so that leads me to believe this is about a need to separate. i would not feel some kind of way if people mistook me for african but it seems yall would feel a need to correct someone if they date thought of you as "african american." you told it.


Could it be because she IS Nigerian, like from the country of Nigeria? Which would mean that her nationality is Nigerian, hence the term Nigerian American. I don't understand the confusion. Africa is more than just a continent, it's a group of countries, no?

If she wants to identify with her country, what's the big deal?


----------



## LeftRightRepeat

CaraWalker said:


> what im saying is for me its not necessary to make a distinction because they are both technically accurate. i get asked where i am from from time to time as if im not from here. people thinking im from somewhere in africa is technically correct, so its not worth correcting. people assuming a black person is an african american even though their actual heritage is from an african country is also technically correct.
> 
> if somebody asked specifically then yeah i could see elaborating but if people are going "actually im nigerian" when someone calls them african american to me thats saying something...



I didn't see that in her post...that she corrects people if they think she's AA, but ok.


----------



## CaraWalker

LoveisYou said:


> Could it be because she IS Nigerian, like from the country of Nigeria? Which would mean that her nationality is Nigerian, hence the term Nigerian American. I don't understand the confusion. Africa is more than just a continent, it's a group of countries, no?
> 
> If she wants to identify with her country, what's the big deal?


nigeria is in africa, which makes both terms correct. this inadvertently supports my point.



LeftRightRepeat said:


> I didn't see that in her post...that she corrects people if they think she's AA, but ok.



which is why i said "IF"


----------



## CarmelCupcake

NijaG said:


> *What are you annoyed about though?*
> 
> I thought the general consensus on this board by African-Americans was that you are a separate distinct group and their own ETHNICITY. Many here have said they don't feel a connection to "Africa" and some don't even want/like the African designation and prefer to be called Black-Americans.
> 
> Majority of the census forms I fill out say African-American/Black. When I check that box, I am mentally ticking the Black part of designation, because I consider AA's to be their own ethnicity. That is not a bad thing and AA's should be happy and proud of their ethnicity. All the racial groups have their own distinct sub-groups/ethnicities.
> 
> I'm Nigerian/American and my ethnicity is Igbo.
> 
> In Nigeria, if I'm mistaken for any other ethnic group (yoruba, efik, etc), I will usually correct the person and let them know I'm Igbo.
> In another African or majority black country, if I'm taken as one of the locals, depending on situation, I let them know I'm Nigerian. If they are familiar with Nigeria, most will ask what group/ethnicity.
> In the States..... it depends. With AA's, and other black groups the Nigerian parts comes into play as way to identify. With non-black and White people, if the conversation gets that far, then the Nigerian part comes into play. If not, they'll assume I'm AA.
> 
> Race is different than ethnicity. Same for nationality



I am annoyed about the fact that in the past, she has talked about african american women, when she does not consider herself african american.


----------



## NijaG

LeftRightRepeat said:


> I see where she's saying that with AA and other blacks it's obvious that she's not AA , so the Nigerian identifier comes into play.   With whites and other non-blacks it may or may not come up because Whites tend to group blacks together and don't really see the differences.
> 
> I  don't see where she's saying that she's trying to separate herself from AAs.
> 
> With me it's pretty obvious, (because of my accent)....i get the "where are you from" question  from pretty much everyone..even another  Jamaican   ( i was shocked when she told me that I sounded like I was from Trinidad )



Thank you.... Cause I didn't feel like trying to explain further.

@CaraWalker see @LeftRightRepeat explanation above

ETA: Ok....I see you replied to @LRR, already. I grew up in both places, have a slight accent which sometimes raises questions. 
If asked, I answer. If not, I don't care if someone thinks I'm AA.


----------



## NijaG

CarmelCupcake said:


> I am annoyed about the fact that in the past, she has talked about african american women, when she does not consider herself african american.



Then tell het to shut up and mind her own Nigerian-American women. Problem solved.


----------



## sj10460

The thing that perturbed me most is that those who were vehemently classifying don't belong to those groups of people.



FemmeFatale said:


> Thanks. I was starting to feel like I was in the twilight zone.


----------



## NijaG

ThirdEyeBeauty said:


> I was thinking the same thing when I got to that statement.  To me if you are black and moved to live in America, you have become a part of African American with heritages and cultural influences from elsewhere.



I'm confused.... So are you saying the AA/black-american term should just be used by all black nationalities amongst ourselves? I'm not talking about the wider white/non-black American society may view us.

If so, then what will be the term for U.S. black-americans whose ancestors where brought during the slave trade or the freed black people who settled here at least 150 years and more ago?

I gave an explanation above of how I and other non-AA see the AA/black-american term as its own ethnicity that is part of the wider black/African diaspora group.


----------



## ThirdEyeBeauty

NijaG said:


> I'm confused.... So are you saying the AA/black-american term should just be used by all black nationalities amongst ourselves? I'm not talking about the wider white/non-black American society may view us.
> 
> If so, then what will be the term for U.S. black-americans whose ancestors where brought during the slave trade or the freed black people who settled here at least 150 years and more ago?
> 
> I gave an explanation above of how I and other non-AA see the AA/black-american term as its own ethnicity that is part of the wider black/African diaspora group.


Don't mind me, I'm being hard on purpose.   Black Americans are Americans.  What do you call an African American who lived in Europe for 30 years and have children and grandchildren there?

I absolutely love learning about ethnicity, culture, and people's background but it can get out of hand when someone really just want to say they are now American. Now if we were in a circle talking I want to hear about all the countries and racial background of the person.


----------



## Honey Bee

Amarilles said:


> she sees a difference between her black and the* "bright brown"* black folks of slave descendants.


What does that mean?


----------



## Menina Preta

sj10460 said:


> The thing that perturbed me most is that those who were vehemently classifying don't belong to those groups of people.



Ya. I noticed that to. Like why do people care so much about who is and who isn't called West Indian?


----------



## Femmefatal1981

ThirdEyeBeauty said:


> I was thinking the same thing when I got to that statement.  To me if you are black and moved to live in America, you have become a part of African American with heritages and cultural influences from elsewhere.


No...AA means something very specific. I can move to Nigeria and that doesn't make me Nigerian ethnically or culturally. So why would moving to the US make someone AA?


----------



## Femmefatal1981

Menina Preta said:


> Ya. I noticed that to. Like why do people care so much about who is and who isn't called West Indian?


Maybe they wonder why Haiti would be excluded? I know the longer this thread goes the more I wonder why every other island is WI but not Haiti.


----------



## FelaShrine

CarmelCupcake said:


> I am not to fond of how some black people from other countries are only black when it is convenient for them.  I have a Nigerian friend who is a first generation american.  She recently told me that she gets upset when people do not consider her Nigerian since she was born and raised in America and not Nigeria.  I mean it really upsets her.  She has told me that she does not consider herself African American.  She states that she is Nigerian. After she told me this recently, I thought back to the times for instance when her and her sister were stating that black African American women have attitudes.  My thing is, if they do not consider themselves African American, they need not talk about us in my presence again. Also, many (not all) Africans, Carribeans, Hatians, etc. will swear up and down that they are not black, but I bet when it comes to applying to grad school, many will check off african american in a heart beat for the affirmative action advantage.



You sound silly.


----------



## CaraWalker

Femmefatal1981 said:


> No...AA means something very specific. I can move to Nigeria and that doesn't make me Nigerian ethnically or culturally. So why would moving to the US make someone AA?



i might agree with you if the distinction was black american vs african american but actually, i still dont. i think they all say literally exactly the same thing.

the only thing i think is different is when its not american ie african british african canadian. beyond that i honestly do not see the need to make a distinction unless one wants to be clear that they are not an american slave descendant.

****that doesnt mean that people dont have the right to make those distinctions of that i think they SHOULDNT. *IMA* just think its petty when they do.


----------



## CarmelCupcake

FelaShrine said:


> You sound silly.



Girl bye. I'm entitled to my opinion, and if you don't like it. oh well.


----------



## FelaShrine

CarmelCupcake said:


> Girl bye. I'm entitled to my opinion, and if you don't like it. oh well.



and Im entitled to say your silly opinion is silly. Mad that children of Nigerians call themselves Nigerians. Foolish.


----------



## Femmefatal1981

CaraWalker said:


> i might agree with you if the distinction was black american vs african american but actually, i still dont. i think they all say literally exactly the same thing.
> 
> the only thing i think is different is when its not american ie african british african canadian. beyond that i honestly do not see the need to make a distinction unless one wants to be clear that they are not an american slave descendant.
> 
> ****that doesnt mean that people dont have the right to make those distinctions of that i think they SHOULDNT. *IMA* just think its petty when they do.


Black American = African American. Both words refer to the descendants of African slaves in America. The only difference between the terms is when black Americans connected more with their roots it transitioned to AA. Immigrants are *insert country of origin-American* 

For example, you can be a Black South African-American or a White South African-American, but neither are African-Americans. My sociology professor in college preferred Black American because he thought "African" should be reserved for immigrants because of you are black obviously you are of African descent.


----------



## Menina Preta

Femmefatal1981 said:


> Maybe they wonder why Haiti would be excluded? I know the longer this thread goes the more I wonder why every other island is WI but not Haiti.



I guess.  But I don't think the term "West Indian" means that much to people who actually live in the West Indies.  I feel like it's more so used by Caribbean people who migrate elsewhere as a term of solidarity with other islanders b/c they're so much fewer in number abroad and that's why abroad people just include Haitians when using that term.  Also, I think West Indian used to refer to people who were primarily from former British colonies, but now it's kinda used to describe any one from the non-Spanish speaking Caribbean.


----------



## Menina Preta

CaraWalker said:


> i might agree with you if the distinction was black american vs african american but actually, i still dont. i think they all say literally exactly the same thing.
> 
> the only thing i think is different is when its not american ie african british african canadian. beyond that i honestly do not see the need to make a distinction unless one wants to be clear that they are not an american slave descendant.
> 
> ****that doesnt mean that people dont have the right to make those distinctions of that i think they SHOULDNT. *IMA* just think its petty when they do.



I don't think someone is being petty depending on the way it is said and in what context.  People are proud of their cultural backgrounds and I think it's fine if someone says "No, actually I am from XYZ place originally."  What annoys me is when no one asked you where you are from or the topic doesn't come up in convo, but you feel the need to share right away…that's petty.


----------



## CaraWalker

Femmefatal1981 said:


> Black American = African American. Both words refer to the descendants of African slaves in America. The only difference between the terms is when black Americans connected more with their roots it transitioned to AA. Immigrants are *insert country of origin-American*
> 
> For example, you can be a Black South African-American or a White South African-American, but neither are African-Americans. My sociology professor in college preferred Black American because he thought "African" should be reserved for immigrants because of you are black obviously you are of African descent.



i think black is black is black. im not gonna go around calling white americans french-american or swedish-american or german american either and we will all live with it.


----------



## ThirdEyeBeauty

I think this all depends on the person.
 I know a second generation who calls himself African American although he is that and part of his parent's culture too. He identifies with it all and does not minimize his background at all but he knows he is black.


----------



## LeftRightRepeat

I  did  wonder why most (myself included ) think that  W. Indies refers only to the British West Indies....and I think for one the British West Indies is the only group that has tried for any measure of cohesion (as opposed to Spanish, French,  Danish West Indies).  In 1952, the islands of the British West Indies formed the West Indies Federation and tried to unite their political power to lobby Britain.   Also the West Indies Cricket team, which is a multi- island team, is composed of  players from mainly English speaking Caribbean countries.  The term ( "West Indian") also tends to be  used more often in England where it refers to people from the former British colonies.   



(ok i leaving this dying   horse alone now )


----------



## Femmefatal1981

CaraWalker said:


> i think black is black is black. im not gonna go around calling white americans french-american or swedish-american or german american either and we will all live with it.


I'm not from any of those places so I don't care, but don't be shocked when you are corrected. Not every white person living here identifies as American.  My German aunt would correct you. She identifies as German...and that's it. She's been here 35 + yrs and if you ask her what she is, she says German. Same goes for my French colleague, she identifies as French, but she hasn't been here very long. There is nothing wrong with immigrants of all races identifying themselves by country of origin. As long as that doesn't mean denying the connection they have with people of the same race who are living other places.


----------



## CaraWalker

Femmefatal1981 said:


> I'm not from any of those places so I don't care, but don't be shocked when you are corrected. Not every white person living here identifies as American.  My German aunt would correct you. She identifies as German...and that's it. She's been here 35 + yrs and if you ask her what she is, she says German. Same goes for my French colleague, she identifies as French, but she hasn't been here very long. There is nothing wrong with immigrants of all races identifying themselves by country of origin. As long as that doesn't mean denying the connection they have with people of the same race who are living other places.


this doesnt seem to be the case with white people. they will tell you their ethnicity, but it does not trump their nationality. the only time the country is primary is if they were born there. it seems to be only black people that want their nationality to take place over their ethnicity.


----------



## sj10460

^^ I think for most 2nd and 3rd generation born or even 1st gens, being american is a given so there's no need to state one's nationality. I went to school with a few Italians and they will tell you in a heartbeat they are Italian (unsolicited of course) yet they've never been to Italy a day in their life.

Don't understand why there's an objection towards non-AA stating their ethnicity or heritage.


----------



## CaraWalker

i do think the exception is polish people because i dont know that ive ever met a polish person who didnt make it be known that theyre polish but im also not sure how many of them were actual immigrants. so yeah. i think this is a rare thing to do.

this conversation has helped me understand that i process people according to their nationality, not their country of origin, and i find that to be helpful information.


----------



## silverbuttons

It's geographically incorrect to consider Haiti not part of the West Indies. Like... I don't understand why someone would be perplexed about fact. Just like it's fact that Haitians are Latinos. If you don't "think of them that way", thats... fine I guess. Just don't dispute fact. 

Why are people so confused?


----------



## Menina Preta

silverbuttons said:


> It's geographically incorrect to consider Haiti not part of the West Indies. Like... I don't understand why someone would be perplexed about fact. Just like it's fact that Haitians are Latinos. If you don't "think of them that way", thats... fine I guess. Just don't dispute fact.
> 
> Why are people so confused?



So any Caribbean person is now Latino?  Or are Haitians Latino bc they share Hispaniola with the DR?  Also, no one is saying that Haiti is not in the West Indies. Cuba and Puerto Rico are in the West Indies, but people don't usually call them West Indian. And it was Haitians who came in here initially saying they're not West Indian.


----------



## LeftRightRepeat

sj10460 said:


> ^^ I think for most 2nd and 3rd generation born or even 1st gens, being american is a given so there's no need to state one's nationality. I went to school with a few Italians and they will tell you in a heartbeat they are Italian (unsolicited of course) yet they've never been to Italy a day in their life.
> 
> Don't understand why there's an objection towards non-AA stating their ethnicity or heritage.


  1st generation Cubans also strongly identify with country of their parents origin over country of residence (and these were mainly non black people when I lived in Miami in the 90s)


----------



## ThirdEyeBeauty

It depends on the person.  Let them identify however they want. I personally know examples where the answers varied.  Can people make up their own way of how they define themselves?


----------



## LoveisYou

CaraWalker said:


> nigeria is in africa, which makes both terms correct. this inadvertently supports my point.
> 
> 
> 
> which is why i said "IF"



Ok, still doesn't address my or other posters' point.

What's the issue with her identifying with her nationality?


----------



## LoveisYou

Femmefatal1981 said:


> No...AA means something very specific. I can move to Nigeria and that doesn't make me Nigerian ethnically or culturally. So why would moving to the US make someone AA?



Thank you!


----------



## Femmefatal1981

CaraWalker said:


> this doesnt seem to be the case with white people. they will tell you their ethnicity, but it does not trump their nationality. the only time the country is primary is if they were born there. it seems to be only black people that want their nationality to take place over their ethnicity.


 Hispanics are pretty consistent when it comes to claiming their country. Even 2-3 generations in. they aren't even that concerned with the American part. They identify as  Mexican, Cuban, Colombian, Argentinian no matter how long their family has been here.


----------



## silverbuttons

Menina Preta said:


> So any Caribbean person is now Latino?  Or are Haitians Latino bc they share Hispaniola with the DR?  Also, no one is saying that Haiti is not in the West Indies. Cuba and Puerto Rico are in the West Indies, but people don't usually call them West Indian. And it was Haitians who came in here initially saying they're not West Indian.



Latino is not Hispanic. Latino refers to groups or nations who were stolen/conquered  by those with Latin based languages. (French, Spanish, Portuguese). The English/Dutch Caribbean countries don't fall into this category.

Just because they don't usually call them West Indian doesn't mean they aren't. People don't usually refer to Mexicans as North Americans... yet they are still part of North America.

You live in North America = You are North American.


----------



## ThirdEyeBeauty

Femmefatal1981 said:


> Hispanics are pretty consistent when it comes to claiming their country. Even 2-3 generations in. they aren't even that concerned with the American part. They identify as Mexican, Cuban, Colombian, Argentinian no matter how long their family has been here.


Still, it depends on the person. Some assimilate into American cultures  fully, partially, or not at all.  I think most people keep their ethnicity so that is not unusual.


----------



## Ayesha81

Even thought my parents are from the West Indies I never got involved with West Indians/Africans. I find them to be merciless.


----------



## LunadeMiel

Ayesha81 said:


> Even thought my parents are from the West Indies I never got involved with West Indians/Africans. I find them to be merciless.


What


----------



## lux10023

Are you close to your family? How do you operate at family functions?

Seems so bizarre.




Ayesha81 said:


> Even thought my parents are from the West Indies I never got involved with West Indians/Africans. I find them to be merciless.


----------



## Ganjababy

Ayesha81 said:


> Even thought my parents are from the West Indies I never got involved with West Indians/Africans. I find them to be merciless.


----------



## Laela

The many threads in this forum highlighting degrading behaviors of blacks is indicative of that statement... some are so hurt by other blacks they will _never _find anything good to say 'bout black folks and that's a crying shame. 




okange76 said:


> Everyone has encountered an other black who has done them wrong. My thing is don't paint every other black you meet with the same brush otherwise you are no better than WP who paint all of us with the same brush. I don't rep all Kenyans or Africans for that matter. I'm just me. If I hurt you, unless you've met all Kenyan or African women, then you can't judge all of them by my poor behavior.
> 
> *We complain about black people being seen as lazy, liars, thugs, hood rats or welfare queens and refuse to accept that they represent us when dealing with other races.* Why can't we give each other the same treatment internally?
> 
> Why are we fighting so hard to hate each other?  What is the collective benefit?


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## bellatiamarie

Chile


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## Laela

LOL


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## Bette Davis Eyes




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## vevster

LaBelleLL said:


> Haitians aren't even West Indian though.


What are they?


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## SoopremeBeing

*pops in, looks around, leaves*


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