# Does the Bible say anything against Lesbians?



## breezy (Nov 13, 2006)

I'm just curious.  I know that when people say that homosexuality is a sin they quote certain scripture pertaining to men who lie with other men, but does the bible say anything against two women being together sexually?  I know that some of you really know your scripture, so I thought I'd ask here.


Thanks in advance!


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## Shimmie (Nov 13, 2006)

breezy said:
			
		

> I'm just curious. I know that when people say that homosexuality is a sin they quote certain scripture pertaining to men who lie with other men, but does the bible say anything against two women being together sexually? I know that some of you really know your scripture, so I thought I'd ask here.
> 
> Thanks in advance!


 Here you are Angel... 

I'm mentioning this first comment for the record, Okay?     Gay and Lesbian are the same, both are homosexuality.  The word homosexuality means 'same sex', so whether a person calls themselves 'gay' or lesbian, it's still homosexuality. 

Now the word of God tells us this:

*Romans Chapter 1 - Verses 21-32:*

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 

Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creatorâ€”who is forever praised. Amen. 

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. *Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. *

*In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. * 
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 

Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Breezy, as harsh as the word above sounds, God's mercy prevails. 
He's speaking to those whose hearts are harden and rebellious. Those who mock Him and choose not to see sin as sin. 

He knows the hearts and the intents of men and all who come to Him for mercy shall not be turned away.  

Here's an article which I hope will be a blessing. 

*Witnessing to a Gay Friend*

http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/churchandministry/evangelism/gayfriend.aspx

*I Corinthians 6:9-11*

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes *nor homosexual offenders* nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 

*And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.*

None of which is stated is in harshness or condemnation of anyone who is homosexual.  Many of us, including myself have loving friends and family members who are homosexual and we love them and they are treated with all the love and affection that we share with everyone in our lives.  We love them and we witness to them. lovingly for homosexuality is in the same category as all sin. 

Hope this helps...


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## joshlyn (Nov 13, 2006)

Thanks Shimmie, for the information.  My hair dresser is gay and he is very firm in his spirituality, meaning he reads the bible, accepts the lord as his savior, and is a helping hand in his church.  We love each other like family and i have always been confused about this issue. My take has always been, hate the sin and love the sinner.


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## Shimmie (Nov 13, 2006)

joshlyn said:
			
		

> Thanks Shimmie, for the information. My hair dresser is gay and he is very firm in his spirituality, meaning he reads the bible, accepts the lord as his savior, and is a helping hand in his church. We love each other like family and i have always been confused about this issue. My take has always been,* hate the sin and love the sinner*.


 
Hi Johslyn:   and thank you.   

None of us are righteous, none of us are.  I love the people who are in my life, both heterosexual and homosexual and they love me.  They 'KNOW'   And they all put up with me and all of my 'Jesus'... 

But they know about truth in God's word and they accept it.  

Homosexuality is a 'spirit' and it grips the soulish realm of a person and it happens for various reasons.   The thing is, the devil knows that because we are sexual beings, it is normal for us to 'natually yield' to sexual desires.  But there is a spirit of perversion (*not the individual...) *but there is a 'spirit' that attaches itsself where one does not know or feel that's it's wrong or they know it's wrong and find it hard to be set free from it.    

I need to do a thread on this because it has been so much confusion on the hearts of homosexuals and the hearts of Chrisitans who love them.  Both have been sadly depicted as enemies, when in reality, neither are.  

Actually, there is more love between Christians and homosexuals than there are otherwise.  How can I say this?  Because they are in our lives, our family members by the scores and dozens and our loving friends and we nurture them lovingly day by day and they bring much joy to our lives for we see each other through the heart...not the sin.

It's only because of the sin and the hold that it has upon their souls and what it will do to them eternally, is why we (as Christians) fight so hard against 'homosexuality' not the homosexual.   

And yes, I personally have to admit, that I do see the sexual act as unnatural, but not in a condemning way.  Two men are not designed to have sex with each other and neither are two women.  It's God's design and even God, Himself says this in love...more than I ever could, for He sent His son Jesus, to die for us in all of our sins, not just one singled out.

Hope this makes sense.  My heart is very full right now.  I want so much to convey the love that I feel in writing this post.  Because all I've ever felt was love and not condemnation for anyone.  

Do I take firm stands.  Indeed I do.  I have to.  In ministry and in life I'm called to.  We all are.   Yet, don't we do so in love and yet protection for those we love?  My family and friends still take firm stands with me daily...all because of love and for my own good.   

This is all to say that Christians do not hate homosexuals.  At least none of the Christians I personally know.  Many here can attest to this for  themselves as well.

All in love,


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## breezy (Nov 13, 2006)

Thanks for the info!


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## Cichelle (Nov 13, 2006)

Lesbianism is not mentioned in the Torah. It is NOT among the forbidden sexual relations. 

The oral law has differing opinions. One rabbi said that lesbians should not be allowed to marry a Kohen. Others disagreed with this and said there is no such prohibition. Maimonides said women who have sex with each other should be flogged. 

At any rate, to repeat, lesbianism is not forbidden by the written Torah. It is not even mentioned.


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## Nice & Wavy (Nov 13, 2006)

Cichelle said:
			
		

> Lesbianism is not mentioned in the Torah. It is NOT among the forbidden sexual relations.
> 
> The oral law has differing opinions. One rabbi said that lesbians should not be allowed to marry a Kohen. Others disagreed with this and said there is no such prohibition. Maimonides said women who have sex with each other should be flogged.
> 
> At any rate, to repeat, lesbianism is not forbidden by the written Torah. It is not even mentioned.


 
Is homosexuality written in the Torah at all?


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## StrawberryQueen (Nov 13, 2006)

When the Bible refers to "men" I take it more as "man."  So that would include lesbian IMO.


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## Shimmie (Nov 13, 2006)

StrawberryQueen said:
			
		

> When the Bible refers to "men" I take it more as "man." So that would include lesbian IMO.


True, for woman simply means man with a womb...'wo-man'.  

And getting back to the term homosexuality;  Homo means 'same'... sexual is self explanitory. 

The Torah is the first five books of the Bible, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Dueteronomy.  Most definitely the Torah speaks of homosexuality as forbidden.  

Look at this discussion forum.  It appears that Christians aren't the only ones, having controversy with this issue.  

http://forums.torah.org/viewtopic.php?t=633&highlight=homosexuality


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## Cichelle (Nov 13, 2006)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> True, for woman simply means man with a womb...'wo-man'.
> 
> And getting back to the term homosexuality;  Homo means 'same'... sexual is self explanitory.
> 
> ...



Again, the Torah does not speak of Lesbianism. It does NOT forbid it. But if you think it does, simply *give the chapter and verse*. Then, if you'd like, we can discuss it further.


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## Cichelle (Nov 13, 2006)

Nice & Wavy said:
			
		

> Is homosexuality written in the Torah at all?



The issue in the Torah is a particular act between men, specifically a man lying with another man as he would with a woman. It is the act, not the "state" (of being a homosexual) that is an issue in the Torah.

AIWP, the rabbis have differing opinions on lesbianism. Since it is not prohibited in the Torah, that leaves it open to this one and that one's opinion.

Right now, the Conservative branch of Judaism is the middle of making a decision about whether to allow people who are gay to be ordained. The conversations revolving around this are very interesting and sometimes rather heated.

You will find varying opinions about lesbianism among Jews. Sometimes there are social reasons for this, including issues of modesty. Some people believe that the instructions in the Torah about not following certain customs apply to women having relations with other women.  But that is simply an opinion, one that could be turned around by any other opinion, AFAIC. 

The question was does the Bible say anthing against Lesbians. Apparently the Christian Gospels do. However, the Torah does not. People do. The Torah does not.


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## Shimmie (Nov 13, 2006)

More information regarding the Torah on homosexuality. 

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/ideas_belief/sex_sexuality/Overview_Homosexuality/Sex_Homosexuality_Halakhah_Gold_Prn.htm

*Here's another:*

A person posed the question that he/she had homosexual urges and wanted to know why he/she could not pursue them.  This is the answer he/she received from the Rabbi.   *On Point!  *

http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=237&o=2499

By: Rabbi Naftali Silberberg 

Western Culture has evolved into the following motto: "If it feels good, and you want it, go right ahead." Our Torah, and indeed common sense, does not agree with this attitude. Just because you want something doesn't make it right. The fact that a is extremely attracted to small children does not give him the right to molest them. And if everyone who desired to have an affair with a married person would go ahead - what would our society look like? 


Everyone is born with desires, some of them benign and some of them are harmful. What makes a person good or bad is not what he or she desires, it is how one deals with them. G-d didn't make life easy for us because He wanted us to earn our reward. To win the war it takes a strong determination and an absolute commitment to the path that you have chosen. 

*The Torah recognizes that certain people have a proclivity to homosexuality.  In fact, the Torah wouldn't have to prohibit homosexuality if it wasn't something that people had a tendency towards.  *

*But life isn't about doing what you want; rather the point is to do what is wanted of you. And the Torah tells us that homosexuality does not conform to G-d's plan for us. *


Every person is put on this world with a mission to complete. The Jew was entrusted with the awesome responsibility of connecting with the divine and transforming the entire world into a G-dly abode, and* G-d gave us 613 Mitzvot *(tools) to accomplish this goal. 

*It isn't always easy to stay focused on the game at hand. Every person is faced daily with temptations and struggles which try to lure him/her to take the easy way out and forget about his/her G-dly destiny. I don't think I have to elaborate on the obvious. *


*Therefore, G-d did us a favor. He created the idea of marriage. He made sure that every person has a partner with whom they can share the same goals and ambitions. *

It is so much easier to face life's struggles with someone on your side. So when you're feeling down you have someone to encourage you and keep you going, and vice versa. Marriage isn't (only) about passion and lust. A real marriage is about two people with similar goals and objectives who get together to form a team. An effective team consists of two (or more) people who have different talents which complement each other. 

Man and woman is the perfect match designed to make the world into a G-dly domain. Women are by nature more nurturing, patient and compassionate (try leaving dad at home with the kids for one day and see what happens)! It is, therefore,  primarily the woman's  task to ensure that the home is a place of peace and harmony, an atmosphere conducive to spirituality and G-dliness. Her -- G-d given -- nature is suited for this purpose. 

Man, on the other hand, is by nature a conqueror. His aggressive nature is meant to be utilized to bring holiness to the population and the world at large. You might be interested in pursuing a therapeutic solution for your dilemma.  *But either way, you must understand what is right and ultimately for your benefit.* 

******* *** *******
Now of course there were rebuttals that followed the Rabbi's truth.  But the bottom line is this.  

We as humans cannot change the word of God, be it written in the Torah which is still the Bible (Old Testament).  

I think some persons keep asking the same questions, thinking the answers will change and when they don't, they opt to change them themselves....

However, everytime my mother and father told me 'No, I could not play in the street (ride my bike or draw pictures with my sidewalk chalk), the answer never changed and it was always for my own good.   

Somethings, though they may be hard to endure, we just have to allow God to deliver us from it. 

The Torah and the Bible are not changing.  God says, "I am God and I change not...."   So we either change according to how we were created by Him and His purpose or suffer the consequences.  

I found this also....

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/beliefs.htm

Same God...which is beautiful.


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## Cichelle (Nov 13, 2006)

Chapter and verse please, Shimmie.

I can find sources on the internet that support the opposite opinion about homosexuality.

The question was does the Bible say anything against Lesbians. The answer is that it doesn't in the Torah.  

Please give me the chapter and verse, not someone's opinion about what the Torah may or may not have meant.

BTW, your first link contains these words:

*Lesbianism is never mentioned in the Torah.*

It then goes onto say things I have already mentioned here.

Just give chapter and verse and then we can go from there.


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## Nice & Wavy (Nov 13, 2006)

Cichelle said:
			
		

> The issue in the Torah is a particular act between men, specifically a man lying with another man as he would with a woman. It is the act, not the "state" (of being a homosexual) that is an issue in the Torah.
> 
> AIWP, the rabbis have differing opinions on lesbianism. Since it is not prohibited in the Torah, that leaves it open to this one and that one's opinion.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks, Cichelle for responding.  My bible does say that homosexuality is forbidden, period.  Anytime you lay with someone of the same sex it is an act of sin.  Man can think whatever they may...I do go by what the Bible says because the Bible is the Infallabile Word of God.  Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill the law.  God's Word never changes, it is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Sin separates man from God.  Mankind covers both men and women.  Whether we are Jewish or not, sin is sin and sin is wrong.  Love the sinner, hate the sin.  There are some things that aren't written exactly in the Bible that we know is wrong (ie: terrorist bombers, hijackers of planes, etc.) However, just because it doesn't speak about these things in the bible, doesn't mean that its ok for these people to do these acts of violence to other human beings.  Even though there is no 'penetration' involved in lesbianism, they are still doing a sexual act which is not what God intended when He created man and woman to become one with each other.  If He intended for men and men and women and women to have sex with one another, He would have said that it was ok.  He is not undecisive to say..."oh, it's not ok for a men to do this...but woman, its ok for them, no problem...its not the same thing."  I know that when God says something, He means it, whether we want to believe it or not, He is the Almighty God and changes not!


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## Shimmie (Nov 13, 2006)

Regarding the Torah, I knew this was written about Lesbians...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_views_of_homosexuality

Sexual intercourse between two men is forbidden by the Torah, as stated above, which deems it a capital offense (Leviticus 20:13). Rabbinic interpretation understands the Torah prohibition of _Lo tikrevu legalot ervah_ ("You shall not come close to another person for the purpose of committing a sexual crime") to forbid all sexual acts which can lead to forbidden intercourse, and prescribes the punishment of lashes.

However, even in Biblical times, it was very difficult to get a conviction that would lead to this prescribed punishment and, in any case, rabbinic tradition understand the Torah's system of capital punishment to no longer be in effect. However, the severity of the punishment may indicate the seriousness with which the act was seen in Biblical times. There is no record in any Jewish source of the death penalty for intercourse between men actually being carried out.

*Homosexual acts between women* (lesbianism) *were forbidden by the* rabbis *on the basis of the Biblical verse "Do not follow the ways of Egypt where you once lived, nor of Canaan, where I will be bringing you. Do not follow [any] of their customs." (Leviticus 18:3).* 

*The oral law (Sifra Aharei Mot 8:8-9) explains that what is meant is sexual customs and that one of those was the marriage of women to each other, as well as a man to a woman and her daughter. The Talmud follows this view, forbidding lesbianism. Like all Rabbinical prohibitions, violation can incur lashes. *

Female homosexual behaviour, because there is no penile penetration involved, is regarded as less serious than male homosexual behaviour.
Classical Orthodox Jewish sources do not specifically mention that homosexual _attraction_ is inherently sinful (though it is regarded as unnatural). 

*However, someone who has had homosexual intercourse is seen to have allowed their "unnatural attractions" to get the better of them, and it is thus believed that they would be held accountable by God for their actions.* 

If he does teshuva (repentance), i.e. he ceases his forbidden actions, regrets what he has done, apologizes to God, and makes a binding resolution never to repeat those actions, he is seen to be forgiven by God (in a similar manner to the other capital crimes, excepting murder).

*** **** ***
I have several Jewish friends and I live in a 90% Orthodox Jewish community and my great-grandfather is Jewish. And according to them, all acts of homosexuality is forbidden.  

But aside from all,  just plain observation of our anatomy is answer enough.  However, the devil has simply come in with his methods to bring shame upon whom God loves most...His creation...His children.  

satan stands daily before God as 'the accuser of the brethern'....whatever he can trap us with and stand before God and accuse us of...the greater the accusations...is what satan delights in.

But God still prevails over all.  None of us go unloved nor exempt from His loving mercies and deliverance. 

To God be the Glory...forever and ever.  All who come to Him, He will in no wise, cast out.   To God, all means all...


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## Shimmie (Nov 13, 2006)

Nice & Wavy said:
			
		

> Thanks, Cichelle for responding. My bible does say that homosexuality is forbidden, period. Anytime you lay with someone of the same sex it is an act of sin. Man can think whatever they may...I do go by what the Bible says because the Bible is the Infallabile Word of God. Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill the law. God's Word never changes, it is the same yesterday, today and forever.
> 
> Sin separates man from God. Mankind covers both men and women. Whether we are Jewish or not, sin is sin and sin is wrong. Love the sinner, hate the sin. There are some things that aren't written exactly in the Bible that we know is wrong (ie: terrorist bombers, hijackers of planes, etc.) However, just because it doesn't speak about these things in the bible, doesn't mean that its ok for these people to do these acts of violence to other human beings.
> 
> ...


Yet, they utiilize substitutions for penetration.  I do not wish to be graphic, yet many here are not unaware that this 'act' is done with the use of sex toys, the use of the hands and orally. 
So why not be with a man anyway....?     I don't understand....

Sorry.  Enough said...


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## Nice & Wavy (Nov 13, 2006)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> Yet, they utiilize substitutions for penetration. I do not wish to be graphic, yet many here are not unaware that this 'act' is done with the use of *sex toys, the use of the hands and orally.*
> *So why not be with a man anyway....?  I don't understand....*
> 
> Sorry. Enough said...


 
Yes, I was going to state that as well and decided that the viewer would get my point about penetration.  However, this is true.  

Men and Women are carried away with their lusts and they don't even realize that what they are doing is wrong.  Sexual sin is great in mankind (men and women).  We see it everyday on the news.  Satan is like a roaring lion seeking who he can devour.  We will have to answer for everything we have done with our bodies.  So, we must pray for those who choose to live their lives this way.


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## kbragg (Nov 13, 2006)

Cichelle said:
			
		

> *Lesbianism is never mentioned in the Torah.*


 
Neither is child molestation or men having sex with little boys...does that make it permissible? God wrote His Laws upon our heart. That writing is called the conscience. We KNOW when something is wrong (unless the conscience is seared which is a separate topic...) we just look for excuses to get away with it. Once again Satan's favorite and most played out tactic...."Hath God said....?" SHUT UP DEVIL!


_PS: Not calling you the devil, please don't take it that way._


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## Nice & Wavy (Nov 13, 2006)

kbragg said:
			
		

> Neither is child molestation or men having sex with little boys...does that make it permissible? *God wrote His Laws upon our heart. That writing is called the conscience. We KNOW when something is wrong (unless the conscience is seared which is a separate topic...)* we just look for excuses to get away with it. _*Once again Satan's favorite and most played out tactic...."Hath God said....?"*_ SHUT UP DEVIL!
> 
> 
> _PS: Not calling you the devil, please don't take it that way._


 
I couldn't have said it better myself.  Thanks, kbragg.


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## Cichelle (Nov 13, 2006)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> Regarding the Torah, I knew this was written about Lesbians...
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_views_of_homosexuality
> 
> ...




Again, I need a chapter and verse, Shimmie.  Please just give the chapter and verse in the Torah specifically against lesbians. No offense, but your great-grandfather's religion or where you live is not relevant. I simply want the chapter and verse *in the Torah*. I have already adressed the varying opinions of the rabbis. I am not asking for anyone's opinion. I am asking for the chapter and verse in the Torah.


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## PaperClip (Nov 13, 2006)

Cichelle said:
			
		

> Again, I need a chapter and verse, Shimmie. Please just give the chapter and verse in the Torah specifically against lesbians. No offense, but your great-grandfather's religion or where you live is not relevant. I simply want the chapter and verse *in the Torah*. I have already adressed the varying opinions of the rabbis. I am not asking for anyone's opinion. I am asking for the chapter and verse in the Torah.


 
Hi, Cichelle....

I recognize that the root question of this question has to do with lesbians, or female homosexuals. So is it acceptable to include women in the conversation as the Torah (and the Bible) pertaining to sexual immorality, including homosexuality? 

I know that you are asking for chapter and verse.... Leviticus 18:22 says: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." The proceeding verse says "23Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion."

I'm just thinking that if any kind of sexual intimacy that a woman would have with anyONE or anyTHING that is not a male is either an abomination or confusion, that the logical deduction is that it is unacceptable in the eyes of Yeshua/Yahweh/Jehovah.

I concur with the point that another poster made that a woman is essentially a "man with a WOmb" and therefore, women are included in those overarching instructions and guidelines pertaining to appropriate sexual behaviors as stated in the Torah/Bible.


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## StrawberryQueen (Nov 13, 2006)

kbragg said:
			
		

> Neither is child molestation or men having sex with little boys...does that make it permissible? God wrote His Laws upon our heart. That writing is called the conscience. We KNOW when something is wrong (unless the conscience is seared which is a separate topic...) we just look for excuses to get away with it. Once again Satan's favorite and most played out tactic...."Hath God said....?" SHUT UP DEVIL!
> 
> 
> _PS: Not calling you the devil, please don't take it that way._


There are several instances of child being used sexually in the Bible, along with incest.  But times where different' so it's not called "child molestation."  And just because she said it wasn't in the Torah doesn't mean she's condoning it, she's stating a fact.


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## Shimmie (Nov 13, 2006)

Cichelle said:
			
		

> Again, I need a chapter and verse, Shimmie. Please just give the chapter and verse in the Torah specifically against lesbians. No offense, but your great-grandfather's religion or where you live is not relevant. I simply want the chapter and verse *in the Torah*. I have already adressed the varying opinions of the rabbis. I am not asking for anyone's opinion. I am asking for the chapter and verse in the Torah.


 
Oh Dear....  

*


			
				Shimmie said:
			
		


Homosexual acts between women (lesbianism) were forbidden by the rabbis on the basis of the Biblical verse "Do not follow the ways of Egypt where you once lived, nor of Canaan, where I will be bringing you. Do not follow [any] of their customs." (Leviticus 18:3). 

The oral law (Sifra Aharei Mot 8:8-9) explains that what is meant is sexual customs and that one of those was the marriage of women to each other, as well as a man to a woman and her daughter. The Talmud follows this view, forbidding lesbianism. Like all Rabbinical prohibitions, violation can incur lashes. 

Click to expand...

*Will it make you feel better to know that the exact term homosexual or lesbian is not written, yet....however...  ... the description and the mention of the acts thereof are?    

Look, let's put it out there. This is beyond the use of symantics and terminologies.  Your real disagreement is with me personally; it's not about chapter and verse regarding this subject.  So feel free to PM me about anything further.  Okay?    Let this thread be for what it is...discussion, not argument.


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## Cichelle (Nov 13, 2006)

kbragg said:
			
		

> Neither is child molestation or men having sex with little boys...does that make it permissible?



The question was "Does the Bible say anything against Lesbians?" My answer was that the Torah does not. Whether or not it is permissible is a separate question that would be answered in different ways by different people. 



> God wrote His Laws upon our heart. That writing is called the conscience. We KNOW when something is wrong (unless the conscience is seared which is a separate topic...) we just look for excuses to get away with it. Once again Satan's favorite and most played out tactic...."Hath God said....?" SHUT UP DEVIL!
> 
> 
> _PS: Not calling you the devil, please don't take it that way._



G-d wrote laws in the Torah. Outside of that (and sometimes within it), different people can come to different conclusions about what is right and wrong based on their "conscience". That's why you have so many different religions, denominations and ways of life. Are you claiming that anyone who believes differently than you is being used or fooled by Satan?


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## StrawberryQueen (Nov 13, 2006)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> Oh Dear....
> 
> 
> Will it make you feel better to know that the exact term homosexual or lesbian is not written, yet....however...  ... the description and the mention of the acts thereof are?
> ...


Shimmie, maybe I'm not seeing something you are, but it doesn't sound like she has a problem with you.  To her defense she IS Jewish, and would "technically" know the Torah better than a non-Jew/someone who has not studied the Torah at length.  I am not sure which category you may fall into, if any.

Therefore she'd be more familiar with what is and what IS NOT in the Torah.  We can all find a million reasons to back up what is in the Bible-that's a fact.  But a lot of those things are based on the opinions of one and not on the book itself.  I interpreted her asking you for a verse as her wanting to see where you were getting your information from, and not some personal attack.  Maybe you're offended because she kept asking you?  If you can't find the correct Torah passage that backs up what you say, then you can't.  But don't be upset with her for asking for clarification.

But honestly, I think everyone here can agree that from a religious standpoint homosexuality (it refers to both males and females) is wrong.  Now the scripture references MAN specifically, but I take it as when man/men is used it means more "mankind" than males. JMO.  I think we can continue to have a intelligent and open discussion w/o resorting to hypersensitivity and personal attacks.  Or maybe b/c the topic has ben branched off into Judaism, then it should be moved out of the Christianity forum.


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## Cichelle (Nov 13, 2006)

Shimmie said:
			
		

> Oh Dear....
> 
> 
> Will it make you feel better to know that the exact term homosexual or lesbian is not written, yet....however...  ... the description and the mention of the acts thereof are?
> ...



Oh dear is right.

Shimimie, please do not pretend to know me and my real disagreements. I made a post about something not being in the Torah, which you have now conceded is true. So why and how is that a disagreement with you? 

Am I not allowed to post here about the Torah? 

I will repeat myself, the Torah does not mention lesbians and while it explicitly forbids a man lying with a man as he would a woman, it does not give a similar prohibition against woman doing this with a woman. Why is that such a problem for some of you? Seriously. Maybe you can explain.


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## pebbles (Nov 13, 2006)

I think the discussion is losing it's "thread." The original question was about lesbianism *in the bible*. And with that said, the question is being asked of Christians, not Jews. Let us not get into an argument or disagreement over what is or isn't written in the Jewish Torah and how it is interpreted. This isn't the place for such an argument. Per the Christianity forum rules, we're not here for controversy. We are here for the advancement of the knowledge of _Christ Jesus_. Thank-you!


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## StrawberryQueen (Nov 13, 2006)

Cichelle said:
			
		

> Oh dear is right.
> 
> Shimimie, please do not pretend to know me and my real disagreements. I made a post about something not being in the Torah, which you have now conceded is true. So why and how is that a disagreement with you?
> 
> ...


No, I don't think that you are.    I think people are just finding reasons to be offended and getting off topic.  This thread should probably be locked because at this point I can't see anything good coming from it.  The truth is the truth.  Or at least I though.


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## PaperClip (Nov 13, 2006)

StrawberryQueen said:
			
		

> There are several instances of child being used sexually in the Bible, along with incest. But times where different' so it's not called "child molestation." And just because she said it wasn't in the Torah doesn't mean she's condoning it, she's stating a fact.


 
Just curious about the use of children being used sexually.... what specifically are you referring to? I'm just thinking about the point of being mislead with regard to cultural inferences. We know in those days women married much younger than modern times....


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## pebbles (Nov 13, 2006)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> Just curious about the use of children being used sexually.... what specifically are you referring to? I'm just thinking about the point of being mislead with regard to cultural inferences. We know in those days women married much younger than modern times....


 
I was wondering the same thing. I can't think of any instances of children being used sexually. Remind me, somebody.


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## StrawberryQueen (Nov 13, 2006)

Ok ok ok.  Let me go look.  Don't wait on me though!  I may take awhile.


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## Cichelle (Nov 13, 2006)

pebbles said:
			
		

> I think the discussion is losing it's "thread." The original question was about lesbianism *in the bible*. And with that said, the question is being asked of Christians, not Jews. Let us not get into an argument or disagreement over what is or isn't written in the Jewish Torah and how it is interpreted. This isn't the place for such an argument. Per the Christianity forum rules, we're not here for controversy. We are here for the advancement of the knowledge of _Christ Jesus_. Thank-you!



Yes, and I answered the question. I did not argue about what the Christian Gospels say or don't say. How is that wrong? I also didn't say anything about the Christian Messiah.

I'm really perplexed as to how me saying something isn't in the Torah is such a problem.


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## StrawberryQueen (Nov 13, 2006)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> Just curious about the use of children being used sexually.... what specifically are you referring to? I'm just thinking about the point of being mislead with regard to cultural inferences. We know in those days women married much younger than modern times....


And it also depends on what was considered a "child" soo, in theory it's all relative.  Nevertheless, I will check.


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## StrawberryQueen (Nov 13, 2006)

Cichelle said:
			
		

> Yes, and I answered the question. I did not argue about what the Christian Gospels say or don't say. How is that wrong? I also didn't say anything about the Christian Messiah.
> 
> I'm really perplexed as to how me saying something isn't in the Torah is such a problem.


B/c this is the Christianity forum and you can only talk about Christianity.  I guess we deviated too much from the forum rules in discussing the Torah.


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## pebbles (Nov 13, 2006)

Cichelle said:
			
		

> *Yes, and I answered the question.* I did not argue about what the Christian Gospels say or don't say. How is that wrong? I also didn't say anything about the Christian Messiah.
> 
> I'm really perplexed as to how me saying something isn't in the Torah is such a problem.


 
I think you misunderstood me. I said that the original question was asked about lesbianism in the Bible. You answered that it is not in *the Torah. *That's where the problem is. There are two different answers being given.

Homosexuality is sex between two people of the same sex, man or woman. According to what you're saying, Jews don't see it that way. Lesbianism is acceptable to some and not to others.

In the Christian faith, lesbianism falls under the blanket of homosexuality, and is therefore forbidden, from the Old Testament into the New Testament. There's no getting around it, and there are no gray areas. 

From that point on, the discussion is turning into what one views as an accurate translation of what the OT says between Christians and Jews, but that's a whole other discussion. I hope I'm a bit more clear.


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## PaperClip (Nov 13, 2006)

StrawberryQueen said:
			
		

> B/c this is the Christianity forum and you can only talk about Christianity. I guess we deviated too much from the forum rules in discussing the Torah.


 
I hope that it's ok for the Torah to be discussed here.... I mean, the Torah and the Bible are related, right?  

At my CHRISTIAN (Pentacostal/Charismatic) church, we have learned about the Torah. We've had a rabbi (Messianic) come to our church and teach about the Torah, and how God had told the Jews to share His teachings and instructions of the Torah with others. This teaching was so enriching to me and inspired me to do some additional study of the Torah on my own. We've even engaged in services and activities around Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kipper, although in FULL RECOGNITION that JESUS IS LORD!  

I'm just hoping that there's no hostility here that would prevent the mention of God's teachings and instructions in the Torah here, and yet I fully support that this is a Christian forum that keeps the Lord Jesus Christ as the center of all.

Peace!


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## StrawberryQueen (Nov 13, 2006)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> I hope that it's ok for the Torah to be discussed here.... I mean, the Torah and the Bible are related, right?
> 
> At my CHRISTIAN (Pentacostal/Charismatic) church, we have learned about the Torah. We've had a rabbi (Messianic) come to our church and teach about the Torah, and how God had told the Jews to share His teachings and instructions of the Torah with others. This teaching was so enriching to me and inspired me to do some additional study of the Torah on my own. We've even engaged in services and activities around Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kipper, although in FULL RECOGNITION that JESUS IS LORD!
> 
> ...


I love your thinking RR but it's obviously not on that level on the Christianity board.


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## pebbles (Nov 13, 2006)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> I hope that it's ok for the Torah to be discussed here.... I mean, the Torah and the Bible are related, right?


 
Yes, we can discuss the OT. What we cannot do is have debates between people of different faiths that may turn hostile and unfriendly.


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## PaperClip (Nov 13, 2006)

pebbles said:
			
		

> Yes, we can discuss the OT. What we cannot do is have debates between people of different faiths that may turn hostile and unfriendly.


 
I hear you loud and clear...and I'm cool with it!


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## Lotus (Nov 13, 2006)

StrawberryQueen said:
			
		

> I love your thinking RR but it's obviously not on that level on the Christianity board.


 
I agree.  

Just a side note: The written Torah, IMO is inclusive of 1st 5 books of the "Christian Bible", but exclusive of the "New Testaments". Therefore, if a member wants to discuss the literal written word of the Old Testament I dont see why his or her point of view should be excluded.

ETA: Just saw Pebbles response. K, I'm on the same page.. just a little confused by earlier posts... I guess.


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## pebbles (Nov 13, 2006)

Lotus said:
			
		

> I agree.
> 
> Just a side note: The written Torah, IMO is inclusive of 1st 5 books of the "Christian Bible", but exclusive of the "New Testaments". Therefore, if a member wants to discuss the literal written word of the Old Testament I dont see why his or her point of view should be excluded.
> 
> *ETA: Just saw Pebbles response. K, I'm on the same page.. just a little confused by earlier posts... I guess*.


 
Thanks!


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## StrawberryQueen (Nov 13, 2006)

This site is excellent in breaking down sexual sins and their definitions.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibc1.htm#corin


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## Ms Lala (Nov 13, 2006)

I don't think Cichelle's points were meant personally either.  I think she raised a point and we as Christians need to be able to state scripture and verse when posed with a question.  We should be able to discuss things without there being conflict.  Despite whether we agree or disagree we should speak to each other in LOVE.  I wouldn't want anyone not to post because they felt unwelcomed or attacked for their differing perspective.  I think it is important to get different perspectives because when you confront the completely nonspiritual person facing these issues we need to be prepared with specifics. I think everyone raised good points and Cichelle was just stating fact.  However the tone of this thread has taken a turn for the worse that doesn't reflect the love of our Father.


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## StrawberryQueen (Nov 13, 2006)

Applause!


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## Southernbella. (Nov 13, 2006)

Ms Lala said:
			
		

> I don't think Cichelle's points were meant personally either.  I think she raised a point and we as Christians need to be able to state scripture and verse when posed with a question.  We should be able to discuss things without there being conflict.  Despite whether we agree or disagree we should speak to each other in LOVE.  I wouldn't want anyone not to post because they felt unwelcomed or attacked for their differing perspective.  I think it is important to get different perspectives because when you confront the completely nonspiritual person facing these issues we need to be prepared with specifics. I think everyone raised good points and Cichelle was just stating fact.  However the tone of this thread has taken a turn for the worse that doesn't reflect the love of our Father.



Excellent post!


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## Shimmie (Nov 13, 2006)

Ms Lala said:
			
		

> I don't think Cichelle's points were meant personally either. I think she raised a point and *we as Christians need to be able to state scripture and verse when posed with a question.* We should be able to discuss things without there being conflict. Despite whether we agree or disagree we should speak to each other in LOVE. I wouldn't want anyone not to post because they felt unwelcomed or attacked for their differing perspective. I think it is important to get different perspectives because when you confront the completely nonspiritual person facing these issues we need to be prepared with specifics. I think everyone raised good points and Cichelle was just stating fact. However the tone of this thread has taken a turn for the worse that doesn't reflect the love of our Father.


 
You're right Ms. Lala, and I've been giving scriptures and links to references throughout all of my posts.   

There's quite a bit of information for all of us to learn from each other; whatever I discover I will continue to share.   To insult or demean another, no...to share, yes.


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## pebbles (Nov 13, 2006)

Ms Lala said:
			
		

> I don't think Cichelle's points were meant personally either. I think she raised a point and we as Christians need to be able to state scripture and verse when posed with a question. We should be able to discuss things without there being conflict. Despite whether we agree or disagree we should speak to each other in LOVE. I wouldn't want anyone not to post because they felt unwelcomed or attacked for their differing perspective. I think it is important to get different perspectives because when you confront the completely nonspiritual person facing these issues we need to be prepared with specifics. *I think everyone raised good points and Cichelle was just stating fact.* *However the tone of this thread has taken a turn for the worse that doesn't reflect the love of our Father.*


 

I don't like how this thread is going and will soon close it. We're not here to argue. The original question was asked of Christians and what the bible says about lesbianism. Somehow, it turned into a discussion of what Jews believe vs what Christians believe and what the Torah says. That's not the point of this discussion, and I would prefer not to see it continue. There's too much room for it to get very hostile, and I can't allow that to happen.


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## Belle Du Jour (Nov 13, 2006)

Ms Lala said:
			
		

> I don't think Cichelle's points were meant personally either.  I think *she raised a point and we as Christians need to be able to state scripture and verse when posed with a question.*



I think Shimmie posted the scripture and verse from the Bible, which, as Pebble pointed out, was the initial line of questioning.


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## StrawberryQueen (Nov 13, 2006)

Yes, this thread should be closed.


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## PaperClip (Nov 13, 2006)

Before the thread closes, can I get an answer about the children being used sexually or maybe there could be another thread started on that topic so it won't get lost, please?


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## StrawberryQueen (Nov 13, 2006)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> Before the thread closes, can I get an answer about the children being used sexually or maybe there could be another thread started on that topic so it won't get lost, please?


I'm still working on it. I'll try to get back to you soon.  I'm the only one who said anything about that, so I don't think anyone else has information on this on hand.


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## pebbles (Nov 13, 2006)

RelaxerRehab said:
			
		

> Before the thread closes, can I get an answer about the children being used sexually or maybe there could be another thread started on that topic so it won't get lost, please?


 
I'll leave the thread open just to get an answer to your question. As I stated before, I have no memory of children being used sexually in the bible, so I'll let Strawberryqueen remind us of that passage. I really can't think of it. I'm drawing a total blank, myself.


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## PaperClip (Nov 13, 2006)

StrawberryQueen said:
			
		

> I'm still working on it. I'll try to get back to you soon. I'm the only one who said anything about that, so I don't think anyone else has information on this on hand.


 
Ok.... thank you.


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## kbragg (Nov 13, 2006)

StrawberryQueen said:
			
		

> And it also depends on what was considered a "child" soo, in theory it's all relative. Nevertheless, I will check.


 
So it's all relative when it comes to sexually abusing children but NOT relative when it comes to discussing homosexuality? 

Gimmie a break guys, it's common sense. God is not a respector of persons. He's not going to forbid homosexuality in men but make it ok for women. Like it was said, "it's a relative."


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## kbragg (Nov 13, 2006)

Cichelle said:
			
		

> Are you claiming that anyone who believes differently than you is being used or fooled by Satan?


 
I believe that anyone who does not believe the Word of God (i.e. the "Christian Bible) is true and that Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh that came to earth died for our sins, rose on the 3rd day, and shortly thereafter asended to heaven (in full body as the scripture states) and is seated on the right hand of the Father is decieved by the deciever who God has given over to their own lusts and to a great dillusion, who are blinded by the spirit of antichrist. 

Hope that clarifies. 

I belive the Bible! 


_(PS: satan and all his identities are spelled in all lower case intentionally as the little puke doesn't even deserve proper grammar to be wasted on his name! )_


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## StrawberryQueen (Nov 13, 2006)

kbragg said:
			
		

> So it's all relative when it comes to sexually abusing children but NOT relative when it comes to discussing homosexuality?
> 
> Gimmie a break guys, it's common sense. God is not a respector of persons. He's not going to forbid homosexuality in men but make it ok for women. Like it was said, "it's a relative."


 
I didn't think that my post was that hard to understand, my apologize for not making myself clear.  I was speaking on the issue of there being instances of child abuse within the Bible-that that it's relative because what we see as a child in 2006 may very well have been an adult back then.  The the issue of there being child sexual abuse in the Bible is relative to the opinion of the reader. I wasn't refering to homosexuality, come on now, isn't it common sense?  And if you read my other post I clearly said that it was stated numerous times that homosexuality was a sin in the Bible and that people can interpret "man" as "male," but in reality it should be percieved more as "mankind," when wondering on the differences between "homosexuality" and "lesbianism."  I don't  even think you're arguing against anyone.  EVERYONE here agrees that homosexuality is a sin, Breezy wondered if lesbianism was covered as well. I never said it wasn't so I don't know what you're trying to prove here.


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## breezy (Nov 13, 2006)

WAit, please don't close this thread.  I did not intend for it to get ugly.

I have a lot of problems w/ my religion and other things, which is why many times I am afraid to post here, but I'm really learning a lot from everyone.

I want to here all points of view on this b/c it is something that I have been wondering about for a long time.

For the ladies who have given me info and attempted to answer the question, thank you so much!


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## pebbles (Nov 13, 2006)

Strawberry, I've looked through my bible trying to find a story of child sexual abuse or molestation but didn't find it. I also went through several of my Concordances and there's nothing there about child sexual abuse.

I do know that the bible taught against offering children up as sacrifices to gods, but I didn't find anything in all of that about the sexual abuse of children. If you find it, please feel free to start another thread. 

Thank-you to everyone, this thread is now closed.


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