# Novelist Anne Rice ditches Christianity for Christ..Is this possible? Discuss



## kayte (Jul 30, 2010)

Novelist Anne Rice says she's quit being a Christian but hanging on to Christ. She's just fed up with his followers.



 
Author Anne Rice posed in 2008 with her writer son, 
Christopher, when both had new books coming out.
Hers was "Christ the Lord: The Road to Cana" 
while his, "Blind Fall" dealt with gay life. 




The author, whose vampire books were huge sellers long before _Twilight_ and whose return to her childhood Catholicism dominated her more recent works, posted a series of comments on Facebook(confirmed by her publisher as authentic, according to Associated Press).
_For those who care, and I understand if you don't: Today I quit being a Christian. I'm out. I remain committed to Christ as always but not to being "Christian" or to being part of Christianity. It's simply impossible for me to "belong" to this quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous group. For ten years, I've tried. I've failed. I'm an outsider. My conscience will allow nothing else._​The mother of openly gay novelist Christopher Rice goes on to say:
_I refuse to be anti-gay. I refuse to be anti-feminist. I refuse to be anti-artificial birth control. I refuse to be anti-Democrat. I refuse to be anti-secular humanism. I refuse to be anti-science. I refuse to be anti-life. In the name of Christ, I quit Christianity and being Christian. Amen._​Rice talked about growing up Catholic, drifting away as a teen, and marrying an atheist. After the death of a young daughter, she began writing her vampire books,

_...about lost souls looking for answers, so in a sense I was always on this journey back. I do get people saying, "How can you be such a fool to believe in God?' I sense many are young Goth kids who feel abandoned. I just say, look, you're looking for the same things that I was, transcendence and redemption. I found what my characters were looking for."_​Even now, as she tosses off organized religion, Rice posts that she's still
_... an optimistic believer in a universe created and sustained by a loving God... Christ is infinitely more important than Christianity and always will be, no matter what Christianity is, has been, or might become._​


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## dlewis (Jul 30, 2010)

Shes quiting organized religion.

I agree with this:


> an optimistic believer in a universe created and sustained by a loving God... Christ is infinitely more important than Christianity and always will be, no matter what Christianity is, has been, or might become


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## Sharpened (Jul 30, 2010)

Yes! I love it!


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## kayte (Jul 30, 2010)

dlewis said:


> *Shes quiting organized religion.*


 
co-sign
it's semantics!

but those are undeniably her own words and her choice of language



> _I quit Christianity and being Christian_


 
I identify with her frustration,like her,I would not have survived a demogaphic as she outlined in her lists of anti-s 

At one point I agreed with quitting Christianity but I had to come to realize those people do not represent Christianity

My church... to posit it a little differently...
rather than...not being anti...

is rather a generous all-inclusive one on the premise of John 3:16 
God so Loved the world that He Gave His only Son that whosover believeth in HIM shall be not perish but shall havE everlasting LIFE

It does not categorize itself as a Christian Church though the teachings of Christ are the premise of all worship 

...it is listed a non-denominational congregation 
Precisely to open its arms to those like Rice


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## Duchesse (Jul 30, 2010)

Judging from the exact words that she wrote, I agree with every word.


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## kayte (Jul 30, 2010)

Paul said ..I have to find the verse(s)...to be aware of the trap of the misfocus on the LAW
(organized religion) 

instead of where it rightfully belongs 
on the relationship of Christ and to HIS people ...which is as John 3:16
I believe "the world" includes... everyone


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## CoilyFields (Jul 30, 2010)

CHristian=one who follows Christ and His teachings
So if you're not a Christian...then what are you?

So as much as it may bother us that some in the body of CHrist have taken on bad habits...you cannot amputate yourself from the body of Christ and His Church and still remain a believer.  I mean he even says that he is coming back for his CHURCH.

You see in history waves of frusteration with the religious status quo...then you see revival so her feelings are not invalid...she just has the wrong solution. 

Its a disturbing trend that I see Christians berating, degrading, and hating on CHristianity and on other believers. This is the time for us to put into action what God says about brothers and sisters who are wrong. We can't abandon each other...thats not what you do to family. Where would the Church be if all the wise people defect? Besides...a few of the anti-s she stated are secondary or tertiary issues...nowhere near the primary tenant of what it means to be a CHristian. And frankly, we have so many denominations that you can choose how you feel on those secondary and tertiary positions and still remain in the body. Believe in birth control?...practice as a protestant!

We should be doing our best to reform those aspects that we believe wrong.  ITs much like my race. No matter what negative behaviors blacks do in abundance...because I can't become "unblack" I stand up and represent the good. (We would call that self-hate if I said I was no longer black). Our CHristianity should be closer to us than our color or gender...

Disclaimer: BUT We need to be careful that our complaints are not against the actual written word of God.  Her example of secular humanism is COMPLETELY opposite to the word of God. So she may just be dissatisfied that she cant be a Christian and still have it her way...we can't serve two masters...


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## Sharpened (Jul 30, 2010)

CoilyFields said:


> CHristian=one who follows Christ and His teachings
> So if you're not a Christian...then what are you?
> 
> So as much as it may bother us that some in the body of CHrist have taken on bad habits...you cannot amputate yourself from the body of Christ and His Church and still remain a believer.  I mean he even says that he is coming back for his CHURCH.
> ...


Many times in the OT and throughout history, when the corruption has become so bad, God has pulled a remnant out of the system. Who is to say this is not happening today?


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## nathansgirl1908 (Jul 30, 2010)

CoilyFields said:


> Disclaimer: BUT We need to be careful that our complaints are not against the actual written word of God. Her example of secular humanism is COMPLETELY opposite to the word of God. So she may just be dissatisfied that she cant be a Christian and still have it her way...we can't serve two masters...


 I agree.  I understand some of what she is saying, but it does sound like she wants to have things HER way.

I stopped regularly attending church several months ago.  I had to take a step back and continue building my own relationship with God.  Interestingly enough I have a closer relationship with Him now.  I think she has a point about kind of stepping away from the organized religion aspect.  That can be very overwhelming and can be a turn-off.


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## ClassicBeauty (Jul 30, 2010)

Coilyfields- So maybe she only wants to follow the words of Christ. No Old Testament, no letters from Paul, etc. The teachings of Christ are actually quite simple. I believe that Christ was much more forgiving and accepting than any church I've ever seen, and when you study the history of the church, I can sort of see where she's coming from.


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## kayte (Jul 30, 2010)

> Its a disturbing trend that I see Christians berating, degrading, and hating on CHristianity and on other believers.



and that is why she left


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## JinaRicci (Jul 30, 2010)

kayte said:


> The mother of openly gay novelist Christopher Rice goes on to say:
> _I refuse to be anti-gay. I refuse to be anti-feminist. I refuse to be anti-artificial birth control. I refuse to be anti-Democrat. I refuse to be anti-secular humanism. I refuse to be anti-science. I refuse to be anti-life. In the name of Christ, I quit Christianity and being Christian. Amen_​


 
To me, Christianity is not defined as anti-gay, anti-feminist, anti-artificial birth control, anti-science... I am a Christian and I am none of those things. I am however anti-vampires.


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## CoilyFields (Jul 30, 2010)

Nymphe said:


> Many times in the OT and throughout history, when the corruption has become so bad, God has pulled a remnant out of the system. Who is to say this is not happening today?


 

I guess I would ask if the corruption today is any worse than in past times (like 10 years ago? 100)? There has always been divisions but can we compare our current situation with the few instances of God using a remnant? Saving Noah and his family and killing everyone else? Buring up Sodom and Gomorrah and leaving Lot and fam? Children of Isreal who were literally serving other gods and hence went into babylonian captivity for 70 years? Or with the jews who refused to accept Christ as THEIR prophesied Messiah hence giving birth to Christianity?  

I think its a huge stretch to suggest that Christianity is so saturated with sin that God has to pull out a remnant that will no longer be called Christians...


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## CoilyFields (Jul 30, 2010)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> I agree. I understand some of what she is saying, but it does sound like she wants to have things HER way.
> 
> I stopped regularly attending church several months ago. I had to take a step back and continue building my own relationship with God. Interestingly enough I have a closer relationship with Him now. I think she has a point about kind of stepping away from the organized religion aspect. That can be very overwhelming and can be a turn-off.


 

A lot of people are suspect of the organization of religion. But always remember that God has called us to be a part of a body of believers. We NEED that support system.  And with the privilage of living in america we have a church or two on every corner . It may take a while but I pray that the Holy Spirit lead you to one that can minister to your particular spiritual needs.


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## CoilyFields (Jul 30, 2010)

ClassicBeauty said:


> Coilyfields- So maybe she only wants to follow the words of Christ. No Old Testament, no letters from Paul, etc. The teachings of Christ are actually quite simple. I believe that Christ was much more forgiving and accepting than any church I've ever seen, and when you study the history of the church, I can sort of see where she's coming from.


 
THe thing about Christ is that He made sure he told them that he did NOT come to do away with the law but to fulfil it.  You dont have Christ if you dont accept the foundation of the OT (I mean all of the prophesies that validate Christ as the Messiah are found in the OT). I guess my concern is when we start to dissect the bible and pick and choose what we wanna follow. 

Wanting change or reform is one thing...but saying you are no longer a Christian is a whole nother level...to me at least


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## CoilyFields (Jul 30, 2010)

kayte said:


> and that is why she left


 
And is that what the Holy Spirit lead her to do? Can't say. But what I can say  is that the Bible does not tell us to deal with frustrations like that (God hates divorce of any kind). We are supposed to bear the infirmities of the weak. Realize that when our brothers and sisters mistreat us or are zealous but not according to knowledge that our job is to bear it...with love and humility lest we also fall. God calls us to unity within the body of Christ...

Now is that popular? No. Is is easy? Not at all. Isthat how the world says to deal with conflict? Nope. So we gotta be careful to deal with things according to scripture and not according to how we feel.


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## CoilyFields (Jul 30, 2010)

JinaRicci said:


> To me, Christianity is not defined as anti-gay, anti-feminist, anti-artificial birth control, anti-science... I am a Christian and I am none of those things. I am however anti-vampires.


 
Lol. The only thing on her list of anti's that was true was secular humanism. And Christianity is not defined by a political party...so its not anti-democratic (cause all parties have good and bad points IMO).


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## dlewis (Jul 30, 2010)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> I agree.  I understand some of what she is saying, but it does sound like she wants to have things HER way.
> 
> *I stopped regularly attending church several months ago.*  I had to take a step back and continue building my own relationship with God.  Interestingly enough I have a closer relationship with Him now.  I think she has a point about kind of stepping away from the organized religion aspect.  That can be very overwhelming and can be a turn-off.



It wasn't until I stopped attending church that I developed a relationship with Him.  

I do attend but not on a regular basis.  We do something a little different in my home.


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## Sharpened (Jul 30, 2010)

CoilyFields said:


> I guess I would ask if the corruption today is any worse than in past times (like 10 years ago? 100)? There has always been divisions but can we compare our current situation with the few instances of God using a remnant? Saving Noah and his family and killing everyone else? Buring up Sodom and Gomorrah and leaving Lot and fam? Children of Isreal who were literally serving other gods and hence went into babylonian captivity for 70 years? Or with the jews who refused to accept Christ as THEIR prophesied Messiah hence giving birth to Christianity?
> 
> I think its a huge stretch to suggest that Christianity is so saturated with sin that God has to pull out a remnant that will no longer be called Christians...


The corruption of many different gospels and different Jesuses is not enough? Look around! We are in the days of Noah. Don't you see it? Why not ask Him instead of relying on the knowledge of man or your own? The fact that people seek the wisdom of man over His could be considered another corruption which has caused division.

All Anne Rice and her son need to do is to quit worrying about their flesh and turn to His ways. Perhaps we should pray for them that He helps them in this area.


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## Laela (Jul 30, 2010)

*2 Timothy 3*

*Perilous Times and Perilous Men*

 1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2  For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud,  blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6  For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives  of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8  Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the  truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; 9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.*The Man of God and the Word of God*


 10 But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance, 11 persecutions, afflictions, which happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra—what persecutions I endured. And out of _them_ all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned _them,_ 15  and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are  able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ  Jesus.    
*16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.*




ClassicBeauty said:


> Coilyfields- So maybe she only wants to follow the words of Christ. No Old Testament, no letters from Paul, etc. The teachings of Christ are actually quite simple. I believe that Christ was much more forgiving and accepting than any church I've ever seen, and when you study the history of the church, I can sort of see where she's coming from.


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## luthiengirlie (Jul 30, 2010)

vampires do exist.. just not the way we think.  they are to be avoided and rebuked at all costs or they will stop at nothing to destory you... I should know.


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## Laela (Jul 30, 2010)

I can understand Rice's frustration..this is an example of tossing out the baby with the bath water. The real CHURCH isn't an institution or building...it's collectively the people who profess Christ...and some still prefer to call themselves Christians... Followers of Christ. Claiming to "break away" from the Body of Christ to get closer to God is a selfish thought. Serving Him is about others and we tend to get closer to Him the more we serve OTHERS, not ourselves. That *self*-serving attitude is not of God, because God is not a *self*ish God. We get close to Him through fasting, praying and not through closing ourselves off somewhere and choosing not to fellowship with His Children in any form. [disclaimer: I'm not speaking about anyone in particular, or even Rice. I don't know anything about her Salvation or Walk]


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## sidney (Jul 30, 2010)

A christian by definition is a follower of Christ, I don't think you can separate the two.  To be a christian, you follow the word of God.  All of these ofther "anti-s" are just personal opinion.  I don't think the author can follow Christ and cherry pick what scritpures she wants to believe.  You can't be pro-homosexuality and a christian by definition at the same time.  

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him:


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## aribell (Jul 30, 2010)

I have been thinking along similar lines, but I am somewhat uneasy with the way Ms. Rice articulates it.  I'm just not sure what exactly she means.  I think that no matter how rightly frustrated we get with the way that Christians behave in the world that Scripture remains our guidepost.  I've been in contexts in which people wanted to separate Jesus' teachings form the rest of Scripture, and it ultimately served to remove the deep challenge that the whole of the Christian life presents.  Again, I don't know exactly what Ms. Rice meant, but those that I've studied with who talked about following Jesus alone really meant that they reduced love of God to good _feelings_ about God (instead of Jesus' definition, which was to obey His commands), and they reduced love of neighbor to essentially doing or supporting whatever made someone else _feel_ good.  

_However,_ I will say that I find myself separating from Christianity as a religion.  I have also come from the Catholic Church, but I don't see the issue being with religious _organization_, per se.  Rather, I see the problem being that many Christians today are interacting in the world as if the Gospel is an _ideology_.  Worldviews are beliefs about how the world should be structured, how individuals should act, and what is best.  Ideologies are worldviews that seek to conform the rest of the world to themselves.  Do I believe that Jesus is the only Way, the only Truth, and the only Life.  YES!  Do I believe that God's word forbids many of the things that are commonly practiced today?  Definitely.  But I have increasingly become wholly unconcerned with _ensuring_ that the rest of the world follow's suit.  And the negative perception many people are having of Christians has to do with their perception that Christians are attempting to force the rest of the world to be like us.  God gives all of us complete freedom to follow or disobey.  Evangelicalism, especially in its interactions in the political realm, has forgotten that.  If God hasn't yet rained fire and brimstone down on judges for permitting gay marriage, then far be it for me to do so.  If He has allowed the abortion clinics to remain standing, then the cup of His judgment hasn't yet reached its full.  I think I'm simply waiting for God to judge and going about my Christian life.  

The new testament Christians were said to have the _favor _of the community as they lived life together in the Spirit.  They evangelized, but their mission was not to Christianize society, but to simply _testify_ of what they had seen and experienced in Christ.  Saying, "This is what Jesus has done for me," is worlds different than saying "We need to organize to prevent gay people from getting married."  I'd like to say more, but I have to get back to work.

*ETA:  Meditating on this question changed everything for me:  "How much of my Christian activity leads me to more deeply and broadly live God's commands and a righteous life, and how much of it is simply religious activity?  How much of my life in Christ revolves around my involvement with my own feelings about God and my faith, and how much of it consists of successfully living a life that is ordered according to His ways?"*


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## Duchesse (Jul 30, 2010)

nicola.kirwan said:


> *However, I will say that I find myself separating from Christianity as a religion. I have also come from the Catholic Church, but I don't see the issue being with religious organization, per se. Rather, I see the problem being that many Christians today are interacting in the world as if the Gospel is an ideology. Worldviews are beliefs about how the world should be structured, how individuals should act, and what is best. Ideologies are worldviews that seek to conform the rest of the world to themselves. Do I believe that Jesus is the only Way, the only Truth, and the only Life. YES! Do I believe that God's word forbids many of the things that are commonly practiced today? Definitely. But I have increasingly become wholly unconcerned with ensuring that the rest of the world follow's suit. And the negative perception many people are having of Christians has to do with their perception that Christians are attempting to force the rest of the world to be like us. God gives all of us complete freedom to follow or disobey. Evangelicalism, especially in its interactions in the political realm, has forgotten that. If God hasn't yet rained fire and brimstone down on judges for permitting gay marriage, then far be it for me to do so. If He has allowed the abortion clinics to remain standing, then the cup of His judgment hasn't yet reached its full. I think I'm simply waiting for God to judge and going about my Christian life. *
> 
> *The new testament Christians were said to have the favor of the community as they lived life together in the Spirit. They evangelized, but their mission was not to Christianize society, but to simply testify of what they had seen and experienced in Christ. Saying, "This is what Jesus has done for me," is worlds different than saying "We need to organize to prevent gay people from getting married." I'd like to say more, but I have to get back to work.*
> 
> *ETA: Meditating on this question changed everything for me: "How much of my Christian activity leads me to more deeply and broadly live God's commands and a righteous life, and how much of it is simply religious activity? How much of my life in Christ revolves around my involvement with my own feelings about God and my faith, and how much of it consists of successfully living a life that is ordered according to His ways?"*


 
Your post was excellent. Perhaps I read Rice's quote in my own lense, and I do see why many will not agree with her, but your bolded sums up my own beliefs better than I could articulate, and also the jist of what _I_ took her meaning to be.

Wow, I just reread. I'm copying and pasting this to a folder.


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## sidney (Jul 30, 2010)

nicola.kirwan said:


> I have been thinking along similar lines, but I am somewhat uneasy with the way Ms. Rice articulates it. I'm just not sure what exactly she means. I think that no matter how rightly frustrated we get with the way that Christians behave in the world that Scripture remains our guidepost. I've been in contexts in which people wanted to separate Jesus' teachings form the rest of Scripture, and it ultimately served to remove the deep challenge that the whole of the Christian life presents. Again, I don't know exactly what Ms. Rice meant, but those that I've studied with who talked about following Jesus alone really meant that they reduced love of God to good _feelings_ about God (instead of Jesus' definition, which was to obey His commands), and they reduced love of neighbor to essentially doing or supporting whatever made someone else _feel_ good.
> 
> _However,_ I will say that I find myself separating from Christianity as a religion. I have also come from the Catholic Church, but I don't see the issue being with religious _organization_, per se. Rather, I see the problem being that many Christians today are interacting in the world as if the Gospel is an _ideology_. Worldviews are beliefs about how the world should be structured, how individuals should act, and what is best. Ideologies are worldviews that seek to conform the rest of the world to themselves. Do I believe that Jesus is the only Way, the only Truth, and the only Life. YES! Do I believe that God's word forbids many of the things that are commonly practiced today? Definitely. But I have increasingly become wholly unconcerned with _ensuring_ that the rest of the world follow's suit. And the negative perception many people are having of Christians has to do with their perception that Christians are attempting to force the rest of the world to be like us. God gives all of us complete freedom to follow or disobey. Evangelicalism, especially in its interactions in the political realm, has forgotten that. If God hasn't yet rained fire and brimstone down on judges for permitting gay marriage, then far be it for me to do so. If He has allowed the abortion clinics to remain standing, then the cup of His judgment hasn't yet reached its full. I think I'm simply waiting for God to judge and going about my Christian life.
> 
> ...


 

Very insightful, and while I agree with you from the point of view of non-believers, I think that it is our duty as believers to earnestly "contend for the faith (Jude 1:3)"  I think as christians fill the different sectors of our society law, politics, business, etc we can have a greater positive influence.  The more we are silent about God's laws, the more carnal our society gets.  And we must remember that this is the same society that our children will one day grow up in, can we raise holy children in sodom or babylon?   If we look over the past century or even two centuries we can see what the cost is when the church is silent.  We must stand in the gap because God's willingness to give our culture over to reprobate thinking is evidence of his increasing judgement, as we know he corrects the ones he loves.  Perhaps we can give nonbelievers the convenience of not feeling judged or have their rights encroached upon, but in the end our silence will cause them a great deal more in eternity than it will to presently offend them.


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## SND411 (Jul 30, 2010)

nicola.kirwan said:


> I have been thinking along similar lines, but I am somewhat uneasy with the way Ms. Rice articulates it.  I'm just not sure what exactly she means.  I think that no matter how rightly frustrated we get with the way that Christians behave in the world that Scripture remains our guidepost.  I've been in contexts in which people wanted to separate Jesus' teachings form the rest of Scripture, and it ultimately served to remove the deep challenge that the whole of the Christian life presents.  Again, I don't know exactly what Ms. Rice meant, but those that I've studied with who talked about following Jesus alone really meant that they reduced love of God to good _feelings_ about God (instead of Jesus' definition, which was to obey His commands), and they reduced love of neighbor to essentially doing or supporting whatever made someone else _feel_ good.
> 
> *However, I will say that I find myself separating from Christianity as a religion.  I have also come from the Catholic Church, but I don't see the issue being with religious organization, per se.  Rather, I see the problem being that many Christians today are interacting in the world as if the Gospel is an ideology.  Worldviews are beliefs about how the world should be structured, how individuals should act, and what is best.  Ideologies are worldviews that seek to conform the rest of the world to themselves.  Do I believe that Jesus is the only Way, the only Truth, and the only Life.  YES!  Do I believe that God's word forbids many of the things that are commonly practiced today?  Definitely.  But I have increasingly become wholly unconcerned with ensuring that the rest of the world follow's suit.  And the negative perception many people are having of Christians has to do with their perception that Christians are attempting to force the rest of the world to be like us.  God gives all of us complete freedom to follow or disobey.  Evangelicalism, especially in its interactions in the political realm, has forgotten that.  If God hasn't yet rained fire and brimstone down on judges for permitting gay marriage, then far be it for me to do so.  If He has allowed the abortion clinics to remain standing, then the cup of His judgment hasn't yet reached its full.  I think I'm simply waiting for God to judge and going about my Christian life.
> 
> ...



To the bolded red: OH MY GOODNESS! I JUST SCREAMED!!!!!!!!!!!! THIS IS EXACTLY HOW I FEEL, BUT COULD NEVER ARTICULATE THEM INTO WORDS LIKE YOU! GOD BLESS YOU!!!!


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## SND411 (Jul 30, 2010)

sidney said:


> Very insightful, and while I agree with you from the point of view of non-believers, I think that it is our duty as believers to earnestly "contend for the faith (Jude 1:3)"  I think as christians fill the different sectors of our society law, politics, business, etc we can have a greater positive influence.  The more we are silent about God's laws, the more carnal our society gets.  And we must remember that this is the same society that our children will one day grow up in, can we raise holy children in sodom or babylon?   If we look over the past century or even two centuries we can see what the cost is when the church is silent.  We must stand in the gap because God's willingness to give our culture over to reprobate thinking is evidence of his increasing judgement, as we know he corrects the ones he loves.  Perhaps we can give nonbelievers the convenience of not feeling judged or have their rights encroached upon, but in the end our silence will cause them a great deal more in eternity than it will to presently offend them.



But didn't Christ inform us that He will send us out like sheep amongst wolves. Did He not say that because the world hated Him, they will hate us too? The Bible absolutely states that as Christians we should be righteous and stand up for justice in all sectors of society. But is it really realistic (or even Biblical) to expect our whole culture to become Christian-minded especially since the Bible indicates things will get worse?


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## kayte (Jul 30, 2010)

> I have been thinking along similar lines, but I am somewhat uneasy with the way Ms. Rice articulates it. I'm just not sure what exactly she means. I think that no matter how rightly frustrated we get with the way that Christians behave in the world that Scripture remains our guidepost


 
She didn't say she was abandoning the Scripture...someone else who posted suggested it might be a consideration 



> Again, I don't know exactly what Ms. Rice meant, but those that I've studied with who talked about following Jesus alone really meant that they reduced love of God to good feelings about God (instead of Jesus' definition, which was to obey His commands), and they reduced love of neighbor to essentially doing or supporting whatever made someone else feel good


.

I don't think this is fair to assign this to her..even though
it's prefaced with a disclaimer in terms of not fully understanding her intent



> they reduced love of neighbor to essentially doing or supporting whatever made someone else feel good.


 
Not reduced! EXPANDED 

love of neighbor...*is unconditional love*...Corinthians 13..Period.
_despite whatever they are doing if _makes them feel good even if I do not agree....or even if I do... uncondtional loves does not have the conditions 
imposed to reduce it to anything...that's the definition of condtional love 

Her distinction made in stating that by dropping Christianity was further clarified by her stating _she was not dropping Christ_...

There is no where in her narrative that says she has also rejected all other parts of the Bible. She has rejected _prejudice..._it doesn't matter what you feel about gays or feminists or Democrats..Jesus embraced them all...._ not their sin or your sin or my sin..._
but embraced  them all...the unwanted the judged ..the despised 
Maybe she does too. I do. My church does,thank God. 




> However, I will say that I find myself separating from Christianity as a religion


^^^
I think this is the essence of what she's saying
Granted she's pretty angry and disillusioned...and perhaps 
some of the issues as I mentioned she raised may not be in concert with every Christian's ethic...that is as wide and far as the Jordan in terms of the diversity and belief system of Christians

I applaud her for recommitting to following Christ...
and detaching from a toxic congregation.....
There was a time when I was so angry
I attached the two(religion & God as one )
and was away from God

she has at least continued her spiritual walk
There is a real disconnect and divide in the Christian Community
It's downright disheartening 

The same issues we all hear about 
Self righteous-ness and judgementalism and sanctimonious-ness
and false piety...not far off are hypocrisy and duplicitiy and blind prejudice instead of uncondtional LOVE 
Her anger reverberates with some of this in her litany of the anti's
Why is she feeling that? Where is the love? The inclusiveness?

until that is addressed.....
more people will continue to walk out...disenchanted and disgusted 
and how sad that is.........


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## Guitarhero (Jul 30, 2010)

kayte said:


> The author, whose vampire books were huge sellers long before _Twilight_ and whose return to her childhood Catholicism dominated her more recent works, posted a series of comments on Facebook(confirmed by her publisher as authentic, according to Associated Press)._For those who care, and I understand if you don't: Today I quit being a Christian. I'm out. I remain committed to Christ as always but not to being "Christian" or to being part of Christianity. It's simply impossible for me to "belong" to this quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous group. For ten years, I've tried. I've failed. I'm an outsider. My conscience will allow nothing else._​The mother of openly gay novelist Christopher Rice goes on to say:_I refuse to be anti-gay. I refuse to be anti-feminist. I refuse to be anti-artificial birth control. I refuse to be anti-Democrat. I refuse to be anti-secular humanism. I refuse to be anti-science. I refuse to be anti-life. In the name of Christ, _*I quit Christianity *_and being Christian. Amen._​




I feel her on this and I know she is not targeting the catholic church, but all of christians.  Thing is, your faith is personal and you express it within a community so that everyone's experiences differ.  I am a catholic and will not convert to another denomination, ever...and I  also refuse to be:


_... to be anti-gay. I refuse to be anti-feminist. I refuse to be  anti-artificial birth control(St. Mark's Church allows for it). I refuse to be anti-Democrat. I refuse  to be anti-secular humanism (well, I reject the founding philosophies for this country and Europe in general based upon the Enlightenment Period). I refuse to be anti-science (many great catholic scientists). I refuse to be  anti-life. In the name of Christ,_....


She's right in many respects.  I won't try and ingratiate myself with those who cannot think past their own interpretations. She is opposed to Bigots and Self-Righteous Morons for Christ.  I don't blame her.

Kayte, when was this article written?  I'd like to share it.


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## sidney (Jul 30, 2010)

SND411 said:


> But didn't Christ inform us that He will send us out like sheep amongst wolves. Did He not say that because the world hated Him, they will hate us too? The Bible absolutely states that as Christians we should be righteous and stand up for justice in all sectors of society. But is it really realistic (or even Biblical) to expect our whole culture to become Christian-minded especially since the Bible indicates things will get worse?


 
I feel that Christ told us to spead the gospel to the nations.  I don't think we can do that without opening our mouthes and sharing the truth in love.   The gospel itself is very offensive and flesh doesn't want to hear it, but that is the commission that we have been given.  People think that its wrong and judgemental to correct an unbeliever or correct a brother or sister in Christ, but I think it requires more love to tell the person in hopes that they receive it, even though the person may no like you for it.  I'd rather someone tell me I'm on my way to destruction rather than to pat me on my back and tell me I'm doing okay, or worst just stay silent while I die in sin.


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## explosiva9 (Jul 30, 2010)

Hmmmm. I have spent the majority of the day discussing this topic and getting all fired up about it. It is my understanding that to be a CHRISTian means I follow CHRIST. Not the pope or Bishop TD Jakes. I'm in no way saying that they are not men of God. But they are men subject to the same temptations and frailty that all humans suffer. Which is why we should look to and focus on God. 

Personally I was more upset because she is a public figure with a large following. I am worried about those who don't have Christ or those struggling with their walk. To have a Christian speak so negatively and denounce an entire religion, I feel, was irresponsible. 

Everyone's walk is different. Do i think all Christians are on the up and up? It's not my place to say. But when u proclaim to follow Christ but then speak generally and negatively in such a way that it may hinder another person's journey/walk, well I don't think that that is what God would want.

I have had my issues with religion but that has nothing to do with my walk with God. The same way I fail God sometimes and stumble, so will those at the pulpit. No human is exempt. But now I keep my eye on God and pray for those around me. 

I think i got off track and since I'm typing on my phone, I will stop here. Please forgive me if i spoke out of context, repeated anything, or offended anyone. God Bless


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## explosiva9 (Jul 30, 2010)

Just wondering, has anyone gone to her fb page and read the responses? Alarming stuff.


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## SND411 (Jul 31, 2010)

I honestly believe a lot of this "I hate Christianity but love Christ" is a reaction to the increase of atheistic diatribe about religion in general.


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## JinaRicci (Jul 31, 2010)

explosiva9 said:


> Hmmmm. I have spent the majority of the day discussing this topic and getting all fired up about it. It is my understanding that to be a CHRISTian means I follow CHRIST. Not the pope or Bishop TD Jakes. I'm in no way saying that they are not men of God. But they are men subject to the same temptations and frailty that all humans suffer. Which is why we should look to and focus on God.
> 
> Personally I was more upset because she is a public figure with a large following. I am worried about those who don't have Christ or those struggling with their walk. To have a Christian speak so negatively and denounce an entire religion, I feel, was irresponsible.
> 
> ...


 
ITA with your entire post! I think she was irresponsible. It makes me wonder what she hoped to accomplish with such a public announcement. For me the reasons she gave for denouncing Christianity only solidifies the slanted view some people already have of Christians on a whole. Rather than dissociate herself from just the people who hate both the sinner and the sin she is saying all of Christians are this way.

I also don't understand why she didn't say 'organized religion.' She of all people should have no problems expressing herself, so why specifically use the word Christianity? What does she truly believe about Christ now? 

I have a lot of questions still & issues with her chosen career but I'll stop here. Thanks for posting Kayte. 

Have a blessed day everyone.


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## ClassicBeauty (Jul 31, 2010)

I don't think you understood my post. I'm not saying that I totally disregard other books of the Bible. I'm just saying that maybe she does, and honestly, I think that's between her and God. What I can't understand is why you would quote a letter from Paul to a young pastor named Timothy to respond to my post about her only following the teachings of Christ. Not to come off as rude, I was just confused.



Laela said:


> *2 Timothy 3*
> 
> *Perilous Times and Perilous Men*
> 
> ...


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## Guitarhero (Jul 31, 2010)

Anne Rice is a novelist and she's using language as a way to express the spiritual situation she finds in the body of Christ.  She is not being "literal."  When people who are bigoted, prejudiced and down-right nasty proclaim that "we" believe a certain way, she's rejecting this.  They don't have the right to represent her but she has the right and duty to represent herself in Christ as best as she can.  Many people do not like labels and for good reason.  Unfortunately, "christian" has become a foul word in the minds of many people and it's not through their fault nor lack of belief and love of God, it's by the horrid example that others have led, not just in their own personal lives, but through violence and oppression in the name of Christ against groups of peoples.  This is the issue.  Again, she's playing with words to express her disgust with that portion of christendom that refuses to realize they have been wrong and continue to be wrong and are so arrogant and prideful, they refuse to confess it and repent of it.

I'd also like to introduce that, perhaps, with all the "persecutions" against the Church, it's Christ Himself who is allowing it, not to say that the world is against His church, but that His church has been wrong and is being punished of sorts.  He is correcting the children who follow His prescribed religion because they have greatly failed Him...all of them.  It's my opinion that it's high time christians stop crying foul as though the wolves are encamped about them and repent of what they have done, continue to do, and will continue to do in future that is not of Christ.  There has got to be transparency.  For us to expect the world will turn a blind eye to our nonsense is foolish of us, esp. when "we," according to many here, are sharing the gospel worldwide so that others will turn from their sins.  We are suffering for a reason, our own fault.  Heaven will not be offered to everyone...only those who upheld the truth as they knew it and lived according to it.


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## Spring (Jul 31, 2010)

I can understand someone becoming discouraged about the sinful lives of believers, and not wanting to be a part of that,..

but her anger and words are directed at God, because God is anti-sin and Christ tells us to "preach repentance AND remission of sins".... you can't redefine marriage as male/male, female/female inspite of the words of Christ saying God joined together male&female,... and walking in the Light of Christ...

ETA: I removed comment about abortion... my apologies


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## Spring (Jul 31, 2010)

People also "hate" going to the doctor just to hear they have cancer and need a surgical operation.  Who wants to hear that???? Does that make the doctor bigotted??  

What grieves God and demoralizes society is when Christians in an effort to appease, white wash sin.....  The only sin to them is "preaching against sin" and then of course they... and only they are qualified to "judge" - "preaching against sin" - ((as bigotted)). 

As lovingly as I can put it,.. how does she interpret "_unless you repent, you will likewise perish_"


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## SND411 (Jul 31, 2010)

Spring said:


> People also "hate" going to the doctor just to hear they have cancer and need a surgical operation.  Who wants to hear that???? Does that make the doctor bigotted??
> *
> What grieves God and demoralizes society is when Christians in an effort to appease, white wash sin.....  The only sin to them is "preaching against sin" and then of course they... and only they are qualified to "judge" - "preaching against sin" - ((as bigotted)). *
> 
> As lovingly as I can put it,.. how does she interpret "_unless you repent, you will likewise perish_"



Very interesting point.


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## Guitarhero (Jul 31, 2010)

Spring said:


> I can understand someone becoming discouraged about the sinful lives of believers, and not wanting to be a part of that,..
> 
> but her anger and words are directed at God, because God is anti-sin and Christ tells us to "preach repentance AND remission of sins".... you can't be for the killing of babies, redefine marriage as male/male, female/female inspite of the words of Christ saying God joined together male&female,... and walking in the Light of Christ...




Where did she say all of that?


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## Spring (Jul 31, 2010)

> I refuse to be *anti-gay*. I refuse to be anti-feminist. I refuse to be anti-artificial birth control. I refuse to be *anti-Democrat*. I refuse to be *anti-secular humanism*. I refuse to be *anti-science*. I refuse to be *anti-life*. In the name of Christ, I quit Christianity and being Christian. Amen



My apologies about my comment about the killings of babies.... I will edited that out of my original post. 

but to the bolded...

homosexuality, secular humanism (denial of God-is she saying she embraces this and Jesus??), politics (dems & reps need God ??), science (the study of creation points to a creator ??), life (I'm completely unsure of what she means here).


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## Laela (Jul 31, 2010)

I understood your [email protected] bolded. 

My point for posting that Scripture is that all Scripture is inspired by God. I believe Paul's Letters were inspired by God. There are red-letter Christians who only focus on Jesus' words and won't read other parts of the Bible; it's between them and God. You're right about that.





ClassicBeauty said:


> I don't think you understood my post. I'm not saying that I totally disregard other books of the Bible.* I'm just saying that maybe she does, and honestly, I think that's between her and God.* What I can't understand is why you would quote a letter from Paul to a young pastor named Timothy to respond to my post about her only following the teachings of Christ. Not to come off as rude, I was just confused.


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## Guitarhero (Jul 31, 2010)

Spring said:


> My apologies about my comment about the killings of babies.... I will edited that out of my original post.
> 
> but to the bolded...
> 
> homosexuality, secular humanism (denial of God-is she saying she embraces this and Jesus??), politics (dems & reps need God ??), science (the study of creation points to a creator ??), life (I'm completely unsure of what she means here).




I think she's saying that, in a pluralistic society, one cannot impose one's beliefs on another as a means to come to some conclusion about how to better human life.  I do know that in secular humanism, you question freely without censorship of religious values.  That inquiry supports looking at science from another perspective other than simpler creationist theories.  For example, some believe the world is 6,000 years old.  Are those years in modern years or are they different?  7 days to make the world.  Is that 7 modern days or 7 days to  God as 7 billion years to us?  Is there no such thing as evolution/mutation when we have evidence that there is?  There are ancient writings and descriptions about the meaning of scripture such that the creation story is largely allegory or that it at least doesn't give the entire story of creationism, step by step.  IMHO, she's asking for rational thought alongside her belief in Jesus.


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## SND411 (Jul 31, 2010)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> I think she's saying that, in a pluralistic society, one cannot impose one's beliefs on another as a means to come to some conclusion about how to better human life.  I do know that in secular humanism, you question freely without censorship of religious values.  That inquiry supports looking at science from another perspective other than simpler creationist theories.  For example, some believe the world is 6,000 years old.  Are those years in modern years or are they different?  7 days to make the world.  Is that 7 modern days or 7 days to  God as 7 billion years to us?  Is there no such thing as evolution/mutation when we have evidence that there is?  There are ancient writings and descriptions about the meaning of scripture such that the creation story is largely allegory or that it at least doesn't give the entire story of creationism, step by step.  IMHO, she's asking for rational thought alongside her belief in Jesus.



Interesting point. It's kind of like the verse that says, "and the sun stood still." People accuse the Bible of being false all because of this verse because it implies that the sun rotates around the earth and not the other way around. 
But then you have to question, is the Bible a scientific book or, rather, a God-inspired book meant to grip at the core of the human heart?


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## Spring (Aug 1, 2010)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> I think she's saying that, in a pluralistic society, one cannot impose one's beliefs on another as a means to come to some conclusion about how to better human life. I do know that in secular humanism, you question freely without censorship of religious values. *That inquiry supports looking at science from another perspective other than simpler creationist theories.* For example, some believe the world is 6,000 years old. Are those years in modern years or are they different? 7 days to make the world. Is that 7 modern days or 7 days to God as 7 billion years to us?* Is there no such thing as evolution/mutation when we have evidence that there is? There are ancient writings and descriptions about the meaning of scripture such that the creation story is largely allegory *or that it at least doesn't give the entire story of creationism, step by step. IMHO, she's asking for rational thought alongside her belief in Jesus.


 


SND411 said:


> Interesting point. It's kind of like the verse that says, "and the sun stood still." People accuse the Bible of being false all because of this verse because it implies that the sun rotates around the earth and not the other way around.
> But then you have to question, is the Bible a scientific book or,* rather, a God-inspired book meant to grip at the core of the human heart*?


 
There are scientist who gave their lives to God through scientific study that proved a 7 day creation.....  sounds like she has a problem with most of scripture (homosexuality, repentance from sin, etc..)


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## nathansgirl1908 (Aug 1, 2010)

Laela said:


> I can understand Rice's frustration..this is an example of tossing out the baby with the bath water. The real CHURCH isn't an institution or building...it's collectively the people who profess Christ...and some still prefer to call themselves Christians... Followers of Christ. Claiming to "break away" from the Body of Christ to get closer to God is a selfish thought. Serving Him is about others and we tend to get closer to Him the more we serve OTHERS, not ourselves. That *self*-serving attitude is not of God, because God is not a *self*ish God. We get close to Him through fasting, praying and not through closing ourselves off somewhere and choosing not to fellowship with His Children in any form. [disclaimer: I'm not speaking about anyone in particular, or even Rice. I don't know anything about her Salvation or Walk]



Breaking away from the Church does not always mean that the person is not helping others.  I think that is an unfair and sweeping generalization.


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## nathansgirl1908 (Aug 1, 2010)

CoilyFields said:


> A lot of people are suspect of the organization of religion. But always remember that God has called us to be a part of a body of believers. We NEED that support system.  And with the privilage of living in america we have a church or two on every corner . It may take a while but I pray that the Holy Spirit lead you to one that can minister to your particular spiritual needs.



I am a part of a body of believers.  I have friends who are very much into the Lord and it is more refreshing to talk to them and explore the Word than to go to church.  One issue I have is that church programs on Sunday are becoming more and more about "putting on." As a result the programs are long and tiring.  Very little of the service seems to be about worshipping God.


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## explosiva9 (Aug 1, 2010)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> I am a part of a body of believers.  I have friends who are very much into the Lord and it is more refreshing to talk to them and explore the Word than to go to church.  One issue I have is that church programs on Sunday are becoming more and more about "putting on." As a result the programs are long and tiring.  Very little of the service seems to be about worshipping God.



Let's not generalize. Not all churches are about putting on as u call it nor all Christians anti this or that. It's simply wrong to make general statements based on limited exposure. I don't mean to sound snippy as it's not my intention. But unless u have visited every single church around the world or have interacted with every single Christian, then negative comments should include the disclaimer of it being based on your very limited exposure and or experience. (and I'm using the term you generally, not you specifically)


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## nathansgirl1908 (Aug 1, 2010)

explosiva9 said:


> Let's not generalize. Not all churches are about putting on as u call it nor all Christians anti this or that. It's simply wrong to make general statements based on limited exposure. I don't mean to sound snippy as it's not my intention. But unless u have visited every single church around the world or have interacted with every single Christian, then negative comments should include the disclaimer of it being based on your very limited exposure and or experience. (and I'm using the term you generally, not you specifically)



I'm talking about the churches I know about.   And I know about several churches.  So while I'm not going to make sweeping generalizations, I WILL speak about my experiences.  But it is not your place to declare my experiences as "limited."


But I will go further on this issue. When a church has gay ministers or supports homosexuality, there is a problem.  You don't have to visit that church to know that.   When a church is burning the holy books of other religions, you don't have to go to that church to know something is wrong.  When 80% of a minister's sermons are about money and the prosperity doctrine, you know something is wrong.


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## explosiva9 (Aug 1, 2010)

I clearly said that a disclaimer should be added and that when I said you, I didn't mean u specifically but using 'you' in a general sense. 

I'm not going to argue but considering that there are may be millions of churches throughout the world and even more ministers, everyone's opinion is limited to the few they have experienced.  Even if you have visited a thousand or ten thousand, your experience is limited to those.

Obviously I have offended you in my response which was not my intention. My apologies.


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## Guitarhero (Aug 1, 2010)

SND411 said:


> Interesting point. It's kind of like the verse that says, "and the sun stood still." People accuse the Bible of being false all because of this verse because it implies that the sun rotates around the earth and not the other way around.
> But then you have to question, is the Bible a scientific book or, rather, a God-inspired book meant to grip at the core of the human heart?



It is a specific book but the problem is that it's not all literal at all.


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## Guitarhero (Aug 1, 2010)

Spring said:


> There are scientist who gave their lives to God through scientific study that proved a 7 day creation.....  sounds like she has a problem with most of scripture (homosexuality, repentance from sin, etc..)




7 days...may not be the shortened waxed down limited hours of days we have...the point.  It does not sound as though she has a problem with most of scripture...and homosexuality is considered disordered (not leading to procreation) but being one is not the sin.  What about lying?  That's also disordered.


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## momi (Aug 1, 2010)

Sounds to me like she has a problem with the Christ of the Holy Bible and has decided to craft for herself some type of substitution.


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## Laela (Aug 1, 2010)

^^^ I agree, Momi....


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## Laela (Aug 1, 2010)

Let me be clear in what I said: *Breaking away from the church TO GET closer to God..shutting oneself off from people. period.
*
That's not a generalization...I'm addressing people who do this specifically. Not those who go off to fast for a while or take a breather. I'm talking about people who don't love people..  No offense taken... 




nathansgirl1908 said:


> Breaking away from the Church does not always mean that the person is not helping others.  I think that is an unfair and sweeping generalization.


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## SND411 (Aug 1, 2010)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> 7 days...may not be the shortened waxed down limited hours of days we have...the point.  It does not sound as though she has a problem with most of scripture...*and homosexuality is considered disordered (not leading to procreation) *but being one is not the sin.  What about lying?  That's also disordered.



But what about a married couple that happens to be barren? Is that disordered?


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## sidney (Aug 1, 2010)

Sometimes I feel like we waste so much time in the body debating, when really, if scripture was our final authority there would be no debate.  Homosexuality is a sin, because first of all,  it is fornication....the two individuals are not married but are having sex.  Plus, there are about a dozen scriptures that single out homosexuality as sin. Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13, 1 Corinithians 6:9-11, Romans 1:27, etc.  

I think this woman is contributing more to the problem, ironically, more than she may well know.  Exchanging her personal truths for scripture, which is the reason why so many people are disenchanted from christianity in the first place, because people want to cherry pick what they will and will not do, and then in the same breath judge other people.  I think collectively we as christians would do well to spend more time in the word than offering opinions.


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## SND411 (Aug 1, 2010)

Sometimes I feel like Christ would rather have some of us NOT represent His person at all. How can you love Jesus yet hate His own Body?


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## momi (Aug 1, 2010)

SND411 said:


> But what about a married couple that happens to be barren? Is that disordered?




God is the one who chooses to open and close a womb.  The bible speaks loud and clear against homosexuality.


Quite frankly, before I even read the entire article I knew where it was going.  There have been very few times where I have not noted a "diss" to Christianity not be linked to homosexuality in some form or fashion.  Remember Carlton Pearson?  Same thing... he said that he had too many gay friends to believe that what the bible says is true.  Im no prophet, but I believe this issue will be the defining and dividing issue of our current era.  Choose this day whom you will serve?  Will it be God or man?


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## SND411 (Aug 1, 2010)

momi said:


> God is the one who chooses to open and close a womb.  The bible speaks loud and clear against homosexuality.
> 
> 
> Quite frankly, before I even read the entire article I knew where it was going.  There have been very few times where I have not noted a "diss" to Christianity not be linked to homosexuality in some form or fashion.  Remember Carlton Pearson?  Same thing... he said that he had too many gay friends to believe that what the bible says is true.  *Im no prophet, but I believe this issue will be the defining and dividing issue of our current era.*  Choose this day whom you will serve?  Will it be God or man?



Honestly, I find this to be pathetic. Despite prideful leaders (religious or political), racism, sexism, stealing of billions of dollars from the unfortunate, abandoning of children, human trafficking, unbelief....it all comes down to who someone wants to sleep with?


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## momi (Aug 1, 2010)

SND411 said:


> Honestly, I find this to be pathetic. Despite prideful leaders (religious or political), racism, sexism, stealing of billions of dollars from the unfortunate, abandoning of children, human trafficking, unbelief....it all comes down to who someone wants to sleep with?



Actually it comes down to whether or not you believe the bible or not. 

When people find it "pathetic or offensive" they either fall at the feet of the cross or find another "path" to God - even though Jesus Himself said that there is no other path to God except through Him.


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## nathansgirl1908 (Aug 1, 2010)

Laela said:


> Let me be clear in what I said: *Breaking away from the church TO GET closer to God..shutting oneself off from people. period.
> *
> That's not a generalization...I'm addressing people who do this specifically. Not those who go off to fast for a while or take a breather. I'm talking about people who don't love people..  No offense taken...



Then I don't follow what you are saying. If someone is trying to get closer to God, then I doubt they are shutting themselves off from people.  Sometimes I get a vibe that people think you're only saved if you get Baptized AND you go to church.  You don't have to be a regular churchgoer to be saved or have a relationship with God.  What is important is that you do work for His Kingdom and I have found that sometimes nonchurch activities achieve that goal much faster or more efficiently.


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## Laela (Aug 1, 2010)

You're correct and that's not the type of person I was referring to. I'm saying for someone to shut themselves off from people to say they're "getting closer to God" _as an excuse not so socialize or fellowship_ with other believers/people, I find this to be selfish. I respect a person who chooses not to go to church ( and it's really between them and God) but don't have anything negative to say about churches or Christianity as a whole. {people who prefer to conduct Holy Ghost-led services at their homes come to mind...there is still assembly and where 2 or 3 are gathered He is in the midst and I believe that}

  People who choose not to go to church at all, or tithe or do anything AND blame others for when thing aren't going right in their lives are who I'm referring to....you know the type that says: _"See, that's why I don't go to church....blah blah blah" or_ _"It's because of THOSE types of Christians I don't do church...blah blah blah_" That stuff is getting tiresome and stale...we shouldn't be looking at "church" (the assembly) as someplace that will do something for us, but we should be looking at it as a place where we can serve. It's all about giving...

 I'm not trying to trash talk other Christians; this is mere observation that what someone like this is doing is not right. We're to elevate others not tear them down...

This is the Christian Forum and at times it's mind-boggling to read all this resistance by Christians on tithing, baptism, Bible Study and church going....  these are all things the Bible exhorts and expounds on. People  don't come here to Fellowship, worship or encourage one another anymore, they just come here to dump their frustrations and point fingers at other Christians. 


That's not good enough... it's actually unacceptable. 




nathansgirl1908 said:


> Then I don't follow what you are saying. If someone is trying to get closer to God, then I doubt they are shutting themselves off from people.  Sometimes I get a vibe that people think you're only saved if you get Baptized AND you go to church.  You don't have to be a regular churchgoer to be saved or have a relationship with God.  What is important is that you do work for His Kingdom and I have found that sometimes nonchurch activities achieve that goal much faster or more efficiently.


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## explosiva9 (Aug 1, 2010)

ITA!!!!!!
Furthermore, instead of pointing, we should be praying and putting them before God so that He can handle it. Bashing, judging, or condemning is never the ans. 



Laela said:


> You're correct and that's not the type of person I was referring to. I'm saying for someone to shut themselves off from people to say they're "getting closer to God" _as an excuse not so socialize or fellowship_ with other believers/people, I find this to be selfish. I respect a person who chooses not to go to church ( and it's really between them and God) but don't have anything negative to say about churches or Christianity as a whole. {people who prefer to conduct Holy Ghost-led services at their homes come to mind...there is still assembly and where 2 or 3 are gathered He is in the midst and I believe that}
> 
> People who choose not to go to church at all, or tithe or do anything AND blame others for when thing aren't going right in their lives are who I'm referring to....you know the type that says: _"
> 
> ...


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## nathansgirl1908 (Aug 1, 2010)

explosiva9 said:


> ITA!!!!!!
> Furthermore, instead of pointing, we should be praying and putting them before God so that He can handle it. Bashing, judging, or condemning is never the ans.


I understand what you are saying but this has a tone to it that is off-putting.  "Putting them before God" sounds like a threat.  And it just sounds somewhat judgmental.


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## Poohbear (Aug 1, 2010)

I have been feeling similar to what this lady is saying about ditching Christianity and following Christ. But I'm seeing it in the way of ditching organized religion and believing what man says.  I am different in her thoughts because I am not for homosexuality, but I do not look down on homosexual people. 

I see a lot of you mentioning unity and the church being the body of Christ. I see a lot of you mentioning people who "break away" just want to be free to sin. But that's not always the case. A lot of churches preach a strict doctrine but don't follow it themselves. For instance, someone could preach about how all homosexuals are going to hell but then they are committing adultery on their wife. And about unity... there's NO unity in Christianity. Look at all the different denominations and debates on certain issues like baptism, trinity, salvation, women preachers, etc. 

Or there's a lot of Christians that act like going to church (to a church building with other believers) is the only way to be a part of the body of Christ which isn't necessarily true. You're going to allow your relationship with God to depend on a 1-2 hour church service and/or 1-2 bible study session once week? 

And then back to this whole thing about sin... someone posted the scripture *"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar"*... well isn't this true about ALL self-proclaimed Christians (whether they are considered good or bad)? All Christians claim that they can't stop sinning and will never stop sinning. When you sin, you are NOT keeping His commandments. So therefore, you're lying if you say you know God or love God and you're not following His commandments. Then people make excuses by saying "we have forgiveness and salvation in Jesus." Alot of that stuff makes no sense and I think that's where a lot of confusion comes into play with the Bible and certain beliefs.


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## sidney (Aug 1, 2010)

This is what the word tells us about fellowship, it says forsake not the fellowship.

*Not forsaking or neglecting to assemble together [as believers], as is the habit of some people, but admonishing (warning, urging, and encouraging) one another, and all the more faithfully as you see the day approaching*. Hebrews 10:25 AMPLIFIED


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## explosiva9 (Aug 1, 2010)

Actually it's not. Just means that u are presenting them in prayer, not sure if I'm articulating it correctly. It's a better option than bashing them and gossiping about them. 



nathansgirl1908 said:


> I understand what you are saying but this has a tone to it that is off-putting.  "Putting them before God" sounds like a threat.  And it just sounds somewhat judgmental.


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## Poohbear (Aug 1, 2010)

sidney said:


> This is what the word tells us about fellowship, it says forsake not the fellowship.
> 
> *Not forsaking or neglecting to assemble together [as believers], as is the habit of some people, but admonishing (warning, urging, and encouraging) one another, and all the more faithfully as you see the day approaching*. Hebrews 10:25 AMPLIFIED


But why is fellowship with believers only limited to a church building for most Christians???? Then if you don't fellowship with the people that your pastor or church members wants you to fellowship with, you are judged and condemned.


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## LovingLady (Aug 1, 2010)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> I understand what you are saying but this has a tone to it that is off-putting.  "Putting them before God" sounds like a threat.  And it just sounds somewhat judgmental.



Really? I wish more people would put me before God.


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## explosiva9 (Aug 1, 2010)

If you visit a church or attend a church that is not feeding your need, you are free to select another church. Ask God for guidance in selecting a church. Let's not assume that all churches are like the one, ten, or thousands of churches that you have visited. Pray and put it before God.




Poohbear said:


> And then back to this whole thing about sin... someone posted the scripture *"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar"*... well isn't this true about ALL self-proclaimed Christians (whether they are considered good or bad)? All Christians claim that they can't stop sinning and will never stop sinning. When you sin, you are NOT keeping His commandments. So therefore, you're lying if you say you know God or love God and you're not following His commandments. Then people make excuses by saying "we have forgiveness and salvation in Jesus." Alot of that stuff makes no sense and I think that's where a lot of confusion comes into play with the Bible and certain beliefs.


 
I don't know about this 'ALL' because I have NEVER said that, BUT, I know for a fact that me, on my own, can't stop sinning. But that is the beauty of it. I can stop sinning because of the strength that God provides. It's a daily battle and one I fight with God leading the way. When I say I know God, I'm saying it because I actively seek a relationship with Him on a daily basis and am committed to being obedient to Him and only Him.

The bottom line is that you go to church to fellowship. You go to praise God together. You go to learn and have your spirit edified. 1- No matter who it is, NO human is exempt from an attack from satan. Everyone has their weaknesses and as humans, at times we fill falter. To sit and point a finger at a minister or church member for their mistake is un-Christlike. Whether u go to church or not. We are no one to point fingers at anyone because we would not like it if fingers are pointed at us when we fail. No matter how big or small. Our responsibility, as a family in Christ, is to help them by praying for them. Not acknowledging their faults and saying, " see, and he calls himself a Christian?" NO ONE is exempt from falling flat on their face and making a mistake. 2- If you know of another church members adulterous affairs from other than them, or if you go to a church and know all the business before you get there or learn it before you leave, then YOU were not there for the right reason.... You can't control what another person says or does but you can control your own actions. You are there to worship and fellowship but if someone's idea of fellowshiping is trashing, gossiping, etc., then you have the obligation to correct them nicely and remove yourself from the situation. And if the problem is from the pulpit, as I said, ask God to take you elsewhere and He will. But we definitely have to stop trashing the church, any church, or religion. Change begins with us.  Instead of abandoning ship, we should be the example.

To follow Christ is to be obedient. He has outlined what he expects from us in the bible. If the bible seems confusing, pray for discernment. Ask God to help you understand what He is saying in His Word.


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## explosiva9 (Aug 1, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> But why is fellowship with believers only limited to a church building for most Christians???? Then if you don't fellowship with the people that your pastor or church members wants you to fellowship with, you are judged and condemned.


 

It's not limited to that but when you denounce CHRISTIANITY, that's a whole other ball of wax.  Many church families began in peoples living rooms and are expanded to facilities because of growth.

The problem is not the building.  The problem is when people say that they are no longers Christians but follow Christ because they don't agree with the the requirements outlined in the church or the bible. You can't be a follower of Christ if you are disobedient to what He expects of you.


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## SND411 (Aug 1, 2010)

explosiva9 said:


> If you visit a church or attend a church that is not feeding your need, you are free to select another church. Ask God for guidance in selecting a church. Let's not assume that all churches are like the one, ten, or thousands of churches that you have visited. Pray and put it before God.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow. I LOVED your whole post. What you said is true. What ever happened to encouraging one another?


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## Poohbear (Aug 1, 2010)

explosiva9 said:


> *I don't know about this 'ALL' because I have NEVER said that, BUT, I know for a fact that me, on my own, can't stop sinning*.


You just said it ("I can't stop sinning")...



explosiva9 said:


> The bottom line is that you go to church to fellowship. You go to praise God together. You go to learn and have your spirit edified. 1- No matter who it is, NO human is exempt from an attack from satan. Everyone has their weaknesses and as humans, at times we fill falter. To sit and point a finger at a minister or church member for their mistake is un-Christlike. Whether u go to church or not. We are no one to point fingers at anyone because we would not like it if fingers are pointed at us when we fail. No matter how big or small. Our responsibility, as a family in Christ, is to help them by praying for them. Not acknowledging their faults and saying, " see, and he calls himself a Christian?" NO ONE is exempt from falling flat on their face and making a mistake. 2- If you know of another church members adulterous affairs from other than them, or if you go to a church and know all the business before you get there or learn it before you leave, then YOU were not there for the right reason.... You can't control what another person says or does but you can control your own actions. You are there to worship and fellowship but if someone's idea of fellowshiping is trashing, gossiping, etc., then you have the obligation to correct them nicely and remove yourself from the situation. And if the problem is from the pulpit, as I said, ask God to take you elsewhere and He will. But we definitely have to stop trashing the church, any church, or religion. Change begins with us. Instead of abandoning ship, we should be the example.
> 
> To follow Christ is to be obedient. He has outlined what he expects from us in the bible. If the bible seems confusing, pray for discernment. Ask God to help you understand what He is saying in His Word.


You didn't get what I was trying to say. I'm not against anything you have said above. I'm saying that very thing... why do Christians point fingers at other Christians when they are at odds with God themselves? And I don't go to church to find out people's business. I just hear people's business from my father who is the pastor who gossips. My family and I have told him to stop but he doesn't see it as gossip, he sees it as Christian discussion. I want to be able to attend a church or fellowship with believers without knowing their business in the way my dad has portrayed them. And I know I cannot control another person's sayings or doings, and I don't ever wish to nor try to do that.


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## Poohbear (Aug 1, 2010)

explosiva9 said:


> It's not limited to that but when you denounce CHRISTIANITY, that's a whole other ball of wax. Many church families began in peoples living rooms and are expanded to facilities because of growth.
> 
> The problem is not the building. The problem is when people say that they are no longers Christians but follow Christ because they don't agree with the the requirements outlined in the church or the bible. You can't be a follower of Christ if you are disobedient to what He expects of you.


When I posted that question about fellowship being limited to the church building, I'm talking about something totally different than what this old white woman has said about denouncing Christianity. I'm talking about people who say things along the lines of "If you don't go to church, you are going to hell" or "If you don't go to church, you're out of the will of God" or "If you don't go to church, you are walking in darkness or living in sin."

For the people that say this, they may not know if that person is actually fellowshipping with believers at home, or throughout the week, in the community, just not in a church building on Sunday mornings and Wednesday nights all the time. These people who do not attend church may be sinning less or living more rightly than the very people who attend church every single Sunday and every Wednesday or participate in different ministries.


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## SND411 (Aug 1, 2010)

I definitely believe you do not have to belong to a church building to be a part of the Body of Christ. I think fellowship can be experienced in broad ways.


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## explosiva9 (Aug 1, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> You just said it ("I can't stop sinning")...


 
Continue reading......

Basically what I am saying that no one can on their own merit.  But they can with the help of God. Am I an active sinner, no, I don't sin for the sake of sinning because I know I am forgiven.  But I falter just like you and everyone else.


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## SND411 (Aug 1, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> When I posted that question about fellowship being limited to the church building, I'm talking about something totally different than what this old white woman has said about denouncing Christianity. I'm talking about people who say things along the lines of "If you don't go to church, you are going to hell" or "If you don't go to church, you're out of the will of God" or "If you don't go to church, you are walking in darkness or living in sin."
> 
> For the people that say this, they may not know if that person is actually fellowshipping with believers at home, or throughout the week, in the community, just not in a church building on Sunday mornings and Wednesday nights all the time. These people who do not attend church may be sinning less or living more rightly than the very people who attend church every single Sunday and every Wednesday or participate in different ministries.




Poohbear, I know EXACTLY how you are feeling. At my university, I belong to an on-campus Christian group. I do not like going to any church in that area. I rather fellowship with people in other ways (like house Bible study, volunteering, etc.) But when I tell them this, they accuse me of wanting to fellowship with only a limited amount of members rather than fellowshipping with the WHOLE body of Christ.

But then again, how would that be possible?
Anyone have suggestions/encouragement?


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## explosiva9 (Aug 1, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> When I posted that question about fellowship being limited to the church building, I'm talking about something totally different than what this old white woman has said about denouncing Christianity. I'm talking about people who say things along the lines of "If you don't go to church, you are going to hell" or "If you don't go to church, you're out of the will of God" or "If you don't go to church, you are walking in darkness or living in sin."
> 
> For the people that say this, they may not know if that person is actually fellowshipping with believers at home, or throughout the week, in the community, just not in a church building on Sunday mornings and Wednesday nights all the time. These people who do not attend church may be sinning less or living more rightly than the very people who attend church every single Sunday and every Wednesday or participate in different ministries.


 
And if they are misguided, don't get mad about it.  Don't get offended because you know your walk.  Why get upset about it if you know you are walking righteously?  If it is directed to you, correct them respectfully and leave it to God.


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## SND411 (Aug 1, 2010)

I believe it is possible to stop sinning altogether with God's help. Did not Jesus say nothing is impossible with God?


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## explosiva9 (Aug 1, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> You didn't get what I was trying to say. I'm not against anything you have said above. I'm saying that very thing... why do Christians point fingers at other Christians when they are at odds with God themselves? And I don't go to church to find out people's business. I just hear people's business from my father who is the pastor who gossips. My family and I have told him to stop but he doesn't see it as gossip, he sees it as Christian discussion. I want to be able to attend a church or fellowship with believers without knowing their business in the way my dad has portrayed them. And I know I cannot control another person's sayings or doings, and I don't ever wish to nor try to do that.


 
1- Why ask why?  People are people and they will disappoint.  One part of human nature is to deny or deflect.  They don't want people to focus on them so they deflect and put others out there in the hopes that they won't be discovered.  It has nothing to do with being Christian.  It's just that how people are.  I have seen it in and out of the church.

2- Then go to another church.  Ask God to help you find a church where you will be able to interact and praise him without the added mess. And just pray for your father.  At this point, only God can show him the error.  Now if your father discusses it only with your family, maybe you guys can come together as a prayer group and pray over your church.  Ministers, especially Pastors, carry alot on their shoulders. Granted, he should be leaving it at God's feet, but if he is coming to his family, you guys can come together in prayer.  Now if he is just gossiping to anyone who would listen, then leave it to God.


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## nathansgirl1908 (Aug 1, 2010)

Abdijz said:


> Really? I wish more people would put me before God.



To talk about putting someone before God sounds like bringing a sullen child to a parent for purposes of disciplining them.  You can pray for someone but you should be careful that you aren't being self-righteous about your prayers.  


And you should be careful about who you ask to pray for you. I definitely don't want everyone praying for me.  I don't know what is in their spirit.


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## explosiva9 (Aug 1, 2010)

SND411 said:


> Poohbear, I know EXACTLY how you are feeling. At my university, I belong to an on-campus Christian group. I do not like going to any church in that area. I rather fellowship with people in other ways (like house Bible study, volunteering, etc.) But when I tell them this, they accuse me of wanting to fellowship with only a limited amount of members rather than fellowshipping with the WHOLE body of Christ.
> 
> But then again, how would that be possible?
> Anyone have suggestions/encouragement?


 
If you are not comfortable at any of the churches in that area, then you are not comfortable.  It's not their place to tell you why you don't feel comfortable.  I will advise that you keep looking.  I don't know where you go to school and I know that some schools are in the boonies which is the point of on-campus ministries.  I went to school in Tampa.  I attended a church that I liked but didn't love.  But the word was preached and that was all that mattered to me.  Put it before God.


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## SND411 (Aug 1, 2010)

explosiva9 said:


> If you are not comfortable at any of the churches in that area, then you are not comfortable.  It's not their place to tell you why you don't feel comfortable.  I will advise that you keep looking.  I don't know where you go to school and I know that some schools are in the boonies which is the point of on-campus ministries.  I went to school in Tampa.  I attended a church that I liked but didn't love.  But the word was preached and that was all that mattered to me.  Put it before God.



I'll keep looking. God has given you a lot of wisdom. I love your posts.


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## explosiva9 (Aug 1, 2010)

nathansgirl1908 said:


> To talk about putting someone before God sounds like bringing a sullen child to a parent for purposes of disciplining them. You can pray for someone but you should be careful that you aren't being self-righteous about your prayers.
> 
> 
> And you should be careful about who you ask to pray for you. I definitely don't want everyone praying for me. I don't know what is in their spirit.


 
I don't have a problem with people praying to God for me but I am weary of people laying their hands on me.


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## explosiva9 (Aug 1, 2010)

SND411 said:


> I'll keep looking. God has given you a lot of wisdom. I love your posts.


 
All Glory be to God. I'm just saying what I feel. Thank God and thank you.


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## Poohbear (Aug 1, 2010)

explosiva9 said:


> 1- Why ask why? People are people and they will disappoint. One part of human nature is to deny or deflect. They don't want people to focus on them so they deflect and put others out there in the hopes that they won't be discovered. It has nothing to do with being Christian. It's just that how people are. I have seen it in and out of the church.


I KNOW! I'm not asking why in the sense of needing an answer. I am asking why to make a point. Regardless, people need to be accountable for their own actions.


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## Poohbear (Aug 1, 2010)

explosiva9 said:


> And if they are misguided, don't get mad about it. Don't get offended because you know your walk. Why get upset about it if you know you are walking righteously? If it is directed to you, correct them respectfully and leave it to God.


I don't feel mad or personally attacked or offended by people who say things or think things about people who don't go to church in a church building. I am merely posting my observations and other people's observations of what they have experienced. I'm actually someone that attends church regularly, every Sunday, but I don't look down on people who don't. However, I am looking to break away from just attending church just for the sake of attending out of tradition.


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## Poohbear (Aug 1, 2010)

SND411 said:


> I believe it is possible to stop sinning altogether with God's help. Did not Jesus say nothing is impossible with God?


This is what I've been leaning toward to believe since the beginning of the year. Not sinning is a life goal of mine. Just the thought of sin is miserable. I also want to get out of this feeling like everything is a sin when I know it's not (ie. not going to church all the time, speeding in your car, etc). Only the things mentioned as clearly wrong against God within the right context of scripture are sins.


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## explosiva9 (Aug 1, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> I KNOW! I'm not asking why in the sense of needing an answer. I am asking why to make a point. Regardless, people need to be accountable for their own actions.



I get that. But if we are unwilling to enlighten them or pray for them, why do we feel the need to use them as excuses? I don't go to church because this or that? Have u spoken up, spoken to them or the pastor, or even brought it before God? Why let it effect your walk and relationship with God?

Not saying u specifically but in general.


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## Poohbear (Aug 2, 2010)

explosiva9 said:


> I get that. But if we are unwilling to enlighten them or pray for them, why do we feel the need to use them as excuses? I don't go to church because this or that? Have u spoken up, spoken to them or the pastor, or even brought it before God? Why let it effect your walk and relationship with God?
> 
> Not saying u specifically but in general.


I agree that they shouldn't be used as excuses nor let it affect their relationship with God. I think sometimes other Christians' actions can be a turn-off to some while not affecting others at all.


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## SND411 (Aug 2, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> This is what I've been leaning toward to believe since the beginning of the year. Not sinning is a life goal of mine. Just the thought of sin is miserable. I also want to get out of this feeling like everything is a sin when I know it's not (ie. not going to church all the time, speeding in your car, etc). Only the things mentioned as clearly wrong against God within the right context of scripture are sins.



This idea of "I will never stop sinning" was addressed in my womens' Christian group. Everyone agreed with this quote but to me, I always felt it was such a defeatist attitude. I also sometimes believed people used this as a way to justify sinning in the future. I mean, I understand people having sin weaknesses, but doesn't God say: 

Isaiah 40:29 
"He gives power to the weak and strength to the powerless."

I also asked them about Matthew 5:48 which says:

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Why would Jesus make a commandment that was completely impossible even with God's help?


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## Poohbear (Aug 2, 2010)

SND411 said:


> This idea of "I will never stop sinning" was addressed in my womens' Christian group. Everyone agreed with this quote but to me, I always felt it was such a defeatist attitude. I also sometimes believed people used this as a way to justify sinning in the future. I mean, I understand people having sin weaknesses, but doesn't God say:
> 
> Isaiah 40:29
> "He gives power to the weak and strength to the powerless."
> ...


Oh wow! We are seeing eye-to-eye on this concept of sin.  It always confuses me when people say "If you continue to walk in darkness, you're on your way to hell" but then turn around in the next sentence and say "but no one is perfect, no one will be free of sin as long as we live on this earth." I just can't buy that anymore. When I hear that, it also makes me think sin is okay since we can pray and ask for forgiveness.  But what is true repentance all about? Isn't it turning away completely from that sin, as in, never ever doing that sin again? I just think not sinning shows true love and belief in the Word of God. But I don't know. There's scriptures about Paul in Romans 7 and the scripture where Jesus says to forgive your brother 7 X 70 times that people use to support we can't stop sinning.


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## explosiva9 (Aug 2, 2010)

SND411 said:


> This idea of "I will never stop sinning" was addressed in my womens' Christian group. Everyone agreed with this quote but to me, I always felt it was such a defeatist attitude. I also sometimes believed people used this as a way to justify sinning in the future. I mean, I understand people having sin weaknesses, but doesn't God say:
> 
> Isaiah 40:29
> "He gives power to the weak and strength to the powerless."
> ...


 
The problem is not God.  We are the problem.  I don't live a sinful life now nor believe that I can never stop sinning.  But I also know that I can only stop with the help of God.  A lot of the problem has to deal with 1- people not realizing that it is a daily battle and a daily surrender, and 2- people believing that God mercy and love is endless, and it is.  But it doesn't mean that you can intentionally go out and sin because you will be forgiven.  It's the intent and knowledge behind the sin. 3- Sometimes, we are unwilling to let go of certain things that God has told us we have to let go of.  It may be something as simple as not listening to secular music or hanging with certain people.  He doesn't do it to be difficult. He does it because He knows you better that yourself.  He knows your future and knows that most likely, those are doorways to satan and sin and/or are disruptions to the life He wants to give you.

That is why it is important to seek a close relationship with God daily.  Learn the sound of His voice.  Be obedient.


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## LovingLady (Aug 2, 2010)

What Anne Rice is doing is selfish and confusing (for others). I think she has a problem accepting what should and should not be a sin. We have to understand that this is not about us, this is about God. If God is against sin, that means that we have to be a against it as well. Christianity is a lifestyle, it is not something that you pick up and drop when you are ready. 

It is interesting that she writes books about vampires and there is a thread that was discussing things along that line. 

http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=385352




SND411 said:


> This idea of "I will never stop sinning" was addressed in my womens' Christian group. Everyone agreed with this quote but to me, I always felt it was such a defeatist attitude. I also sometimes believed people used this as a way to justify sinning in the future. I mean, I understand people having sin weaknesses, but doesn't God say:
> 
> Isaiah 40:29
> "He gives power to the weak and strength to the powerless."
> ...



I personally don't think it is possible to stop sinning because there are sins that you are committing that you are unaware of. For example, what would make you think God is ok with speed if you are going over the speed limit? As you become closer to God you will sin less but you will never get to the sinless status of Jesus. If that was possible, there would be no purpose of Him dying on the cross.


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## explosiva9 (Aug 2, 2010)

Anne Rice can't even begin to imagine the damage she has done.


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## LovingLady (Aug 2, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Oh wow! We are seeing eye-to-eye on this concept of sin.  It always confuses me when people say *"If you continue to walk in darkness, you're on your way to hell" but then turn around in the next sentence and say "but no one is perfect, no one will be free of sin as long as we live on this earth." *I just can't buy that anymore. When I hear that, it also makes me think sin is okay since we can pray and ask for forgiveness.  But what is true repentance all about? Isn't it turning away completely from that sin, as in, never ever doing that sin again? I just think not sinning shows true love and belief in the Word of God. But I don't know. There's scriptures about Paul in Romans 7 and the scripture where Jesus says to forgive your brother 7 X 70 times that people use to support we can't stop sinning.



Walking in darkness means walking without God guiding you. When you walk down the path that God leads you on, you are still going to stumble and fall (sin) but now you are able to see what you are stumbling over. The difference between Christians and non-believers is that we recognize when we are sinning (because we are walking in the light of the God), non-believers don't think that are sinning and what they are doing is justifiable (they are walking in darkness).


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## Poohbear (Aug 2, 2010)

Abdijz said:


> Walking in darkness means walking without God guiding you. When you walk down the path that God leads you on, you are still going to stumble and fall (sin) but now you are able to see what you are stumbling over. The difference between Christians and non-believers is that we recognize when we are sinning (because we are walking in the light of the God), non-believers don't think that are sinning and what they are doing is justifiable (they are walking in darkness).


Well what about disobedience? I'm taking disobedience to mean...

FOR EXAMPLE: the bible says "flee from sexual immorality"...let's say I decide to fornicate... wouldn't that be disobedience, and wouldn't that be sin? Let's say I pray and ask for forgiveness, then a week later, I fornicate again. Am I really sorry for that sin? I don't think so. It's showing I actually like doing that sin and not trusting God to wait until I'm married to have sex. It's not showing that I believe that Jesus died on the cross for the punishment of my sins. He came to save us FROM our sin, not IN our sins.

But I see what you're saying about the difference in a believer and non-believer on how they feel about sin. I guess the person that says "I'm a Christian" but justifies sin or doesn't think the sin they're doing is wrong, they truly are not a Christian. 

But I do have a question... if you walk without God guiding you, are you still considered a Christian? If so, how?


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## JinaRicci (Aug 2, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> I have been feeling similar to what this lady is saying about ditching Christianity and following Christ. But I'm seeing it in the way of ditching organized religion and believing what man says. I am different in her thoughts because *I am not for homosexuality, but I do not look down on homosexual people.*


 
This is how I feel. It is after all biblical. Jesus taught love. He was not for prostitution but He didn't love Mary any less. I thought Rice was referring to the people who are anti-gay people, who treat them less than but maybe not. 



Abdijz said:


> What Anne Rice is doing is selfish and confusing (for others). I think she has a problem accepting what should and should not be a sin. We have to understand that this is not about us, this is about God. If God is against sin, that means that we have to be a against it as well. Christianity is a lifestyle, it is not something that you pick up and drop when you are ready.
> 
> *It is interesting that she writes books about vampires and there is a thread that was discussing things along that line.*
> 
> ...


 
Isn't it? The forerunner of Stephanie Meyer.


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## SND411 (Aug 2, 2010)

I'm not denying that it is a daily struggle. And I have heard that since we are living in a corrupted, earthly body, and not our heavenly one, our souls fight against our flesh when we sin. I think Paul alluded to this?

But shouldn't our ULTIMATE goal be to become sinless? Or does not only happen when Christ returns?

I mean, why would God gives us commandments like
John 8
"She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and *sin no more*."

Or state:
1 John 3:9*

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.*

If we say we are born again, how can we then say we will never stop sinning then? So shouldn't our sinning at least decrease overtime during our daily struggle and eventually be gone once and for all?

IF God can do all things, cannot He, with His power, leads His followers to eventually never sin?


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## Poohbear (Aug 2, 2010)

Abdijz said:


> I personally don't think it is possible to stop sinning because there are sins that you are committing that you are unaware of. For example, what would make you think God is ok with speed if you are going over the speed limit? As you become closer to God you will sin less but you will never get to the sinless status of Jesus. If that was possible, there would be no purpose of Him dying on the cross.


That's the thing. I think a lot of people make everything a sin to justify the statement "We can't stop sinning."  Like you just mentioned speeding. I do not think speeding is necessarily a sin against God. It's man's law not to drive over the speed limit. Just like watching tv, I don't think that's necessarily a sin unless you let tv influence your mind and actions. And I don't think not attending church or women preaching is a sin either. I just believe the things that are clearly laid out in the bible as wrong: homosexuality, fornication, murder, stealing, adultery, gossip, hatred, slander, malice, filthy communication, greed, pride, and much much more are sins. 



explosiva9 said:


> The problem is not God. We are the problem. I don't live a sinful life now nor believe that I can never stop sinning. But I also know that I can only stop with the help of God. A lot of the problem has to deal with 1- people not realizing that it is a daily battle and a daily surrender, and 2- people believing that God mercy and love is endless, and it is. But it doesn't mean that you can intentionally go out and sin because you will be forgiven. It's the intent and knowledge behind the sin. 3- Sometimes, we are unwilling to let go of certain things that God has told us we have to let go of. It may be something as simple as not listening to secular music or hanging with certain people. He doesn't do it to be difficult. He does it because He knows you better that yourself. He knows your future and knows that most likely, those are doorways to satan and sin and/or are disruptions to the life He wants to give you.
> 
> That is why it is important to seek a close relationship with God daily. Learn the sound of His voice. Be obedient.


 I agree that the problem is not God and that the problem is us. We are not willing to give up the sin that we love to do and have full knowledge of that it's wrong. When we sin, we have to think about what made us sin. We can't keep blaming it on Satan. We have free will too.  Why not just completely stop if we know clearly that it's wrong?  Why go through this seeking God daily and daily repentance when he's suppose to be in our hearts, minds, and souls at the point of salvation?  I also wonder about the scriptures that SND411 posted about in regards to being holy and blameless, living upright and pure, keeping His commandments, sin no more, and more.


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## Poohbear (Aug 2, 2010)

Abdijz said:


> What Anne Rice is doing is selfish and confusing (for others). *I think she has a problem accepting what should and should not be a sin. *We have to understand that this is not about us, this is about God. If God is against sin, that means that we have to be a against it as well. Christianity is a lifestyle, it is not something that you pick up and drop when you are ready.


Yeah, what she's doing is a bit confusing. I think the *bolded* is a problem that most Christians have, hence the reason we have so many threads asking "Is [this] a sin?" or "Is [that] against God?"  But I think Anne's problem is different than that, actually worse. It seems like since her son is gay, she feels like being gay is okay even though the bible clearly speaks against it. And she mentioned not being anti-secular humanism.  We all know that indulging in the evil desires and pleasures of this world is wrong, so she can't be ditching religion for Christ.


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## explosiva9 (Aug 2, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> That's the thing. I think a lot of people make everything a sin to justify the statement "We can't stop sinning." Like you just mentioned speeding. I do not think speeding is necessarily a sin against God. It's man's law not to drive over the speed limit. Just like watching tv, I don't think that's necessarily a sin unless you let tv influence your mind and actions. And I don't think not attending church or women preaching is a sin either. I just believe the things that are clearly laid out in the bible as wrong: homosexuality, fornication, murder, stealing, adultery, gossip, hatred, slander, malice, filthy communication, greed, pride, and much much more are sins.
> 
> 
> I agree that the problem is not God and that the problem is us. We are not willing to give up the sin that we love to do and have full knowledge of that it's wrong. When we sin, we have to think about what made us sin. We can't keep blaming it on Satan. We have free will too. Why not just completely stop if we know clearly that it's wrong? Why go through this seeking God daily and daily repentance when he's suppose to be in our hearts, minds, and souls at the point of salvation? I also wonder about the scriptures that SND411 posted about in regards to being holy and blameless, living upright and pure, keeping His commandments, sin no more, and more.


 
It's not daily repentance.  It's seeking a closer relationship with God so that we can be more aware of our shortcomings. He is supposed to be in our hearts but God can't thrive where sin is given free reign. You can't serve two gods. It's either God or give in to your flesh. We all have our things.  For example, I loved secular music. I loved to dance.  I see nothing wrong with it.  The Lord asked me to lay it down.  Not because there is something wrong with it but because it inhibits my relationship with Him.  I struggle with it sometimes but the closer I get to God, the easier it is.  Somedays, when I'm walking down the street or am in a store and hear a song I used to love, I miss it.  But I remind myself of what God has asked of me. I start to talk to God. And before you know it, I don't even remember going through that lil moment.  But what if my relationship wasn't nurtured? I'm talking about I LOVE LOVE LOVE music and dancing. I would have probably slipped and currently be in disobedience.  Why risk it? It's not worth it to me.  

I don't see why there is a problem with actively seeking him daily? ( not saying you do)  When you start dating, don't you seek to nurture the relationship by talking to the person daily? Taking an interest in what the other person likes?  Why is it ok to nurture a relationship with a person but with God, we give him the remnants of our day and time?  How can you say you love God but not want to nurture that relationship and give Him the best of yourself?


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## Laela (Aug 2, 2010)

Hmmm... I go back to the original post...because there's some things being overlooked.

We have a _novelist _who had always considered herself an "outsider" from other Christians. How much of an outsider..? she wrote books glorifying vampires after the death of her daughter...her son is gay and obviously has been the brunt of attacks from people, including Christians... she was married to an atheist...

....She's a writer... one who CREATES imagery or stories based on what's in their head. Her works are clearly an extension of her pain, confusion and experience over the years... she said she is LEAVING Christianity, which means she has been a Christian all along? Can a follower of Christ in good faith write about vampires? Can a follower of Jesus espouse homosexuality? The very act is an abomination to the Lord.  

By denouncing Christianity..what exactly does this mean? Is she about to start her own church?  Will we expect new literature from her on _her brand_ of Christianity?? 

Folks just can't seem to separate standing up and believing God's Word and hating people.. The balance is to hate the act/sin, not the person. A person who has God living in them WILL HATE sin. I know gay people and Love them, but I won't stand with them to support gay rights at a march, that's going against my beliefs. Show up with a "Jesus Loves You" T-shirt on and give out hugs? Perhaps.  Homosexuality (like any other abomination to God) falls under this thin veil. It's unfortunate there are Christians who go to the extreme and invoke violence against gays, but that, IMHO, is where the balance is off...God is not a part of that. It's a _choice _they make to sin by being violent to others.

Rice clearly is going through a major life change, and I pray to God she doesn't lead too many astray ....lest we forget, she's a very influential writer with a cult following.  

Prayers are in order for young Christians worldwide and for Anne Rice.





kayte said:


> Novelist Anne Rice says she's quit being a Christian but hanging on to Christ. She's just fed up with his followers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Poohbear (Aug 2, 2010)

explosiva9 said:


> It's not daily repentance. It's seeking a closer relationship with God so that we can be more aware of our shortcomings. He is supposed to be in our hearts but God can't thrive where sin is given free reign. You can't serve two gods. It's either God or give in to your flesh. We all have our things. For example, I loved secular music. I loved to dance. I see nothing wrong with it. The Lord asked me to lay it down. Not because there is something wrong with it but because it inhibits my relationship with Him. I struggle with it sometimes but the closer I get to God, the easier it is. Somedays, when I'm walking down the street or am in a store and hear a song I used to love, I miss it. But I remind myself of what God has asked of me. I start to talk to God. And before you know it, I don't even remember going through that lil moment. But what if my relationship wasn't nurtured? I'm talking about I LOVE LOVE LOVE music and dancing. I would have probably slipped and currently be in disobedience. Why risk it? It's not worth it to me.
> 
> *I don't see why there is a problem with actively seeking him daily? ( not saying you do) When you start dating, don't you seek to nurture the relationship by talking to the person daily? Taking an interest in what the other person likes? Why is it ok to nurture a relationship with a person but with God, we give him the remnants of our day and time? How can you say you love God but not want to nurture that relationship and give Him the best of yourself*?


This is true. Now I see what you're saying. I shouldn't have started off my question with "Why go through seeking God daily...?" I sometimes have a hard time expressing what I really want to ask or say with words.

Question... you said you see nothing wrong with secular music and dancing, but it inhibits your personal relationship with Him. Do you think there's some people out there that can listen to this music and dance without it inhibiting their relationship, or is that not up to us to determine? (This can be for anyone to answer as well).


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## explosiva9 (Aug 2, 2010)

Laela said:


> Hmmm... I go back to the original post...because there's some things being overlooked.
> 
> We have a _novelist _who had always considered herself an "outsider" from other Christians. How much of an outsider..? she wrote books glorifying vampires after the death of her daughter...her son is gay and obviously has been the brunt of attacks from people, including Christians... she was married to an atheist...
> 
> ...




This would be the 2nd time. She first left when she was 18. 38 yrs later she reconciled. Now she is making this claim.  I am upset about it because of the effect on others. But all I can and will do is pray for her.


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## Poohbear (Aug 2, 2010)

Thanks Laela and explosiva9. I didn't realize the history of Anne Rice. I didn't even know who the woman was before looking into this thread. Is she popular in some sort of way? If not, do you think she may want more attention (whether it's fame or getting people to buy her vampire books)?


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## explosiva9 (Aug 2, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> This is true. Now I see what you're saying. I shouldn't have started off my question with "Why go through seeking God daily...?" I sometimes have a hard time expressing what I really want to ask or say with words.
> 
> Question... you said you see nothing wrong with secular music and dancing, but it inhibits your personal relationship with Him. Do you think there's some people out there that can listen to this music and dance without it inhibiting their relationship, or is that not up to us to determine? (This can be for anyone to answer as well).



Ok. Some music we know aren't good on any account. Too violent, sexual, etc. Some a happy feel good music with no sexual undertone. For me, not even the happy feel good is okay because it has a snowball effect. Same with dancing. Will that change as i progress in my walk, maybe. Maybe not. Only God knows. Everyone's walk is different. What may be a problem for u may not be for me. God may tell u to not watch a tv show or tv in general. But God may not require that of me. That's are part of your walk. So in general i don't feel that certain secular music is bad (and i can be wrong in this thinking ) but I know that for me and the path God wants me on, there is no room for it.

God knows u better than u know yourself. He also knows your entire path. If God says something inhibits it,  He knows why. I don't think it's completely up to us. Some things we do we know are not helping but sometimes things we think are insignificant are also barriers. It can be as simple as how we dress. This is my opinion and belief. As I said,  I could be wrong.


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## explosiva9 (Aug 2, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Thanks Laela and explosiva9. I didn't realize the history of Anne Rice. I didn't even know who the woman was before looking into this thread. Is she popular in some sort of way? If not, do you think she may want more attention (whether it's fame or getting people to buy her vampire books)?



She is a big time author. Her vampire series is very well known. She wrote interview with a vampire and queen of the damned. Both were made into movies. The first starring tom cruise and brad pitted and the latter starring Aaliyah. 
She wrote some titles after her conversion but I don't think they did as well.


Lol. Brad Pitted. Lol. I meant Brad Pitt.  Sorry for all the typos. I'm on my phone.


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## Poohbear (Aug 2, 2010)

explosiva9 said:


> Ok. Some music we know aren't good on any account. Too violent, sexual, etc. Some a happy feel good music with no sexual undertone. For me, not even the happy feel good is okay because it has a snowball effect. Same with dancing. Will that change as i progress in my walk, maybe. Maybe not. Only God knows. Everyone's walk is different. What may be a problem for u may not be for me. God may tell u to not watch a tv show or tv in general. But God may not require that of me. That's are part of your walk. So in general i don't feel that certain secular music is bad (and i can be wrong in this thinking ) but I know that for me and the path God wants me on, there is no room for it.


Okay cool. When it comes to secular music for me personally, I feel like it can hinder me spiritually. Sometimes, I can ride with music on in my car without really listening to it for real. But I know there's been several times when I start listening to the music, something tells me to just cut it off, especially sexually explicit lyrics. The lyrics actually becomes disturbing sometimes to my mind. So I guess that little voice that told me to cut it off was God. But at the same time, I felt like I was genuinely saying no to listening to the music as well.


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## Laela (Aug 2, 2010)

Pooh, I'm not an Anne Rice fan... just something about her books. She has writing works on Jesus now... so she now has a _hybrid _of religious works.. a touch of darkness with some light? I'm just leery (and not convinced) about her writings...

Feel free to go to her Web site to see for yourself:

http://www.annerice.com/ChristTheLord-OutOfEgypt-Reviews.html

Her son's Web site... 
http://www.christopherricebooks.com/novels-MoonlitEarth-Synopsis.html






Poohbear said:


> Thanks Laela and explosiva9. I didn't realize the history of Anne Rice. I didn't even know who the woman was before looking into this thread. Is she popular in some sort of way? If not, do you think she may want more attention (whether it's fame or getting people to buy her vampire books)?


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## Poohbear (Aug 2, 2010)

Laela said:


> Pooh, I'm not an Anne Rice fan... just something about her books. She has writing works on Jesus now... so she now has a _hybrid _of religious works.. a touch of darkness with some light? I'm just leery (and not convinced) about her writings...
> 
> Feel free to go to her Web site to see for yourself:
> 
> ...


 erplexed I just skimmed through those reviews on the annerice.com site... it sounds like she might be along the lines of gnosticism with all the talk about the strange powers of Jesus as a child. I'm leery of her works too.


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## explosiva9 (Aug 2, 2010)

Laela said:


> Pooh, I'm not an Anne Rice fan... just something about her books. She has writing works on Jesus now... so she now has a _hybrid _of religious works.. a touch of darkness with some light? I'm just leery (and not convinced) about her writings...
> 
> Feel free to go to her Web site to see for yourself:
> 
> ...



I have never read her books. I only saw the movie adaptations of queen and lestat.


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## Guitarhero (Aug 2, 2010)

SND411 said:


> But what about a married couple that happens to be barren? Is that disordered?




Look up what disordered regarding sin means.  Disordered...in the sense that the behavior is anti-procreation, anti the order that God established.  A barren married couple is not disordered.  

But....what is wrong about an individual declaring what they see as problematic...hence, Rice?  She's not saying follow her.


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## LovingLady (Aug 2, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Well what about disobedience? I'm taking disobedience to mean...
> 
> FOR EXAMPLE: the bible says "flee from sexual immorality"...let's say I decide to fornicate... wouldn't that be disobedience, and wouldn't that be sin? Let's say I pray and ask for forgiveness, then a week later, I fornicate again. Am I really sorry for that sin? I don't think so. It's showing I actually like doing that sin and not trusting God to wait until I'm married to have sex. It's not showing that I believe that Jesus died on the cross for the punishment of my sins. He came to save us FROM our sin, not IN our sins.



Think of it as smoking. The more you smoke (sin) the harder it is to stop once you realize how terrible it is for you. A sin that I know a lot of people had a hard time stopping (including myself) was cursing. That habit developed in high school and it took a couple of years for me to stop once I realized how bad and unnecessary it is. I really wanted to stop cursing but being around people who cursed and not knowing another way to express myself, it took me a while to get rid of that habit. I think the fact that we go to God forgiveness shows that we believe we are forgiven. 



> But I see what you're saying about the difference in a believer and non-believer on how they feel about sin. I guess the person that says "I'm a Christian" but justifies sin or doesn't think the sin they're doing is wrong, they truly are not a Christian.
> 
> But I do have a question... *if you walk without God guiding you, are you still considered a Christian? If so, how?*


That is a great question and I don't know the answer to it. I am leading towards no but I don't have anything to back it up with except for a gut feeling. If I had to take a guess you could think of it in the sense of, if God isn't leading you who is? You are either leading yourself or you are being lead by the world. It would be like the deaf leading the blind. I could be completely wrong and I hope the wiser ladies will chime in. 



Poohbear said:


> Okay cool. When it comes to secular music for me personally, I feel like it can hinder me spiritually. Sometimes, I can ride with music on in my car without really listening to it for real. But I know there's been several times when I start listening to the music, something tells me to just cut it off, especially sexually explicit lyrics. The lyrics actually becomes disturbing sometimes to my mind. So I guess that little voice that told me to cut it off was God. *But at the same time, I felt like I was genuinely saying no to listening to the music as well. *



As you become closer to God you will start to have a dislike for the things that are not of Him. When I put the radio onto the popular stations I have to shake my head and ask myself what was I thinking.


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## explosiva9 (Aug 4, 2010)

Interesting.  She is asked why she doesn't just leave Catholicism and try a different church.  She doesn't ans.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/04/anne-rice-on-her-decision_n_671097.html


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## Sharpened (Aug 4, 2010)

explosiva9 said:


> Interesting.  She is asked why she doesn't just leave Catholicism and try a different church.  She doesn't ans.
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/04/anne-rice-on-her-decision_n_671097.html


LOL! Too wise in her own mind, I am afraid or her true answer would tick a bunch of people off. Besides, the topic is far more interesting than she is.


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## uniquely made (Aug 5, 2010)

Sounds to me like she wants attention.  OK if that's what she wants to do.  People do it all the time.  But why the BIG announcement.  I saw this on CNN but only got to see a small part of it.  I've never even heard of her until now.  Many people have pulled away from organized religion and continued to develop their relationship with God.  Maybe it's a good thing, maybe it'll make some people think about how they treat others and give her a chance to really focus on her relationship with God.  But on the other hand it can lead some away from God.  She seems angry at people and how she's been judged or expected to live her life.  Maybe she doesn't really know Christ the way she thinks she does.


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## kayte (Aug 7, 2010)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> I feel her on this and I know she is not targeting the catholic church, but all of christians. Thing is, your faith is personal and you express it within a community so that everyone's experiences differ. I am a catholic and will not convert to another denomination, ever...and I also refuse to be:
> 
> 
> _... to be anti-gay. I refuse to be anti-feminist. I refuse to be anti-artificial birth control(St. Mark's Church allows for it). I refuse to be anti-Democrat. I refuse to be anti-secular humanism (well, I reject the founding philosophies for this country and Europe in general based upon the Enlightenment Period). I refuse to be anti-science (many great catholic scientists). I refuse to be anti-life. In the name of Christ,_....
> ...


 
*completely co-sign with the above* 

Hi Volver_Alma_Gitana

I haven't visited the thread since I last posted
in terms of the date?...it was posted the same day I saw it featured on my MSN page....so te first day of this thread
hth



> Maybe she doesn't really know Christ the way she thinks she does.


that's not fair.... 

Romans 
There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jeus
and she says she is! She says she is in Christ Jesus....
so why say that? 
No one is righteous....says the BIBLE.... no-not one 
the thread seems to have become a referendum om Anne Rice's "sinning"
rather than a look at why people leave Christianity

you might.... feel ...you (general you) are superior to Anne Rice
as a follower of Christ...and thus you can condemn her supporting 
homosexuality..pro-choice..as worse sins than yours
or mine 
so..she is a worse sinner than you or me 
and you can even question her love of Christ...
even though she says...she does...you get to judge her because of
her so-called sins.... that's the issue ..right there and an illusion 
the civilized sinners..like us! versus the horrible Anne Rice and her associate sinners

_Forget it.._.there's no such thing,sisters 
you are NOT a better Christian than she is 
Jesus said ..those without sin may cast the first stone 
Are you without sin? ..any of us?
For the record..I am NOT pro Anne Rice or con Anne Rice 
& I won't enter into discussion
about the evils or ethic or lack of in her earlier writings...

I just do not remember anyone before making such a 
declarative public statement before in renouncing the Christain religion
& she's not alone..far from it 
even on this forum there are those who ..while they may not agree with her lifestyle can empathize with her anger....and of why she's leaving
I brought the topic to suggest...rather than blame her as a high profile figure for leaving Christianity 
that it's BEEN HIGH time the Christian religion take a serious inventory....
of itself and get back to Christ..who embraced everyone...even advocating loving....enemies. 

none of us are better Christians ..if you think you are 
that ironically ...is considered sin


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## sidney (Aug 8, 2010)

kayte said:


> *completely co-sign with the above*
> 
> Hi Volver_Alma_Gitana
> 
> ...


 

Looking inward and judging yourself first is always sound advice.  But I think we are always to contend for the faith and the truth of God's word.  The danger is that when we (christians) accept beliefs that are contrary to God's word, we guarantee eternal security for ourselves, but at the same time we deprive others the ability to do the same.


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## Laela (Aug 8, 2010)

Confirmation message from my minister today:
_
"My friends you can't let people move you out of the love for God. Jesus already paid for your sins why do you think that you need to give that much power to dirt. Romans 8 said it best. Don't try to be good because evil will present itself, just love because good is in love. Listen or download this podcast and have a love week."_


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## Guitarhero (Aug 8, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Yeah, what she's doing is a bit confusing. I think the *bolded* is a problem that most Christians have, hence the reason we have so many threads asking "Is [this] a sin?" or "Is [that] against God?"  But I think Anne's problem is different than that, actually worse. It seems like since her son is gay, *she feels like being gay is okay even though the bible clearly speaks against it.* And she mentioned not being anti-secular humanism.  We all know that indulging in the evil desires and pleasures of this world is wrong, so she can't be ditching religion for Christ.




As a fellow catholic, she is saying that the church doesn't teach that being homosexual is the sin.  She doesn't wish that condemnation on her family nor anyone else.  I find catholics to be more inclusive than not, actually.  Depends upon the individual people, their regional personality etc.


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## Sharpened (Aug 10, 2010)

Alex Hall outlines a good number of the problems I have with churches:

Christianity Vs. Churchianity.mp3 (Part One)
Christianity Vs. Churchianity2.mp3 (Part Two)
 Christianity Vs. Churchianity3.mp3 (Part Three)

Warning: Each one is over an hour long.


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## julzinha (Aug 14, 2010)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> *Many people do not like labels and for good reason.  Unfortunately, "christian" has become a foul word in the minds of many people and it's not through their fault nor lack of belief and love of God, it's by the horrid example that others have led, not just in their own personal lives, but through violence and oppression in the name of Christ against groups of peoples.  This is the issue.  Again, she's playing with words to express her disgust with that portion of christendom that refuses to realize they have been wrong and continue to be wrong and are so arrogant and prideful, they refuse to confess it and repent of it.*



I agree with this wholeheartedly. When many people here Christians, they don't think of the many wonderful and caring people that follow Christ. They think of judgmental people who aim to belittle others in their self righteousness. They think of people like that church that showed up at the funeral of a gay soldier with signs saying that fa**ot will burn in Hell in front of a grieving family.

I even admit that at times I have taken steps back from Christianity because I have gay friends and they are amazing people and when I hear rhetoric like this it makes me want to cry because I envision a God that loves us all. And for people to say that my friends will burn in hell because they are gay is cruel.

I have even stopped going to church because I feel like I need to take a spiritual journey with God separate from everyone else and I need to be ready and at previous points in my life I wasn't ready at all.


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## aribell (Aug 20, 2010)

I think that preaching morality without the gospel is essentially preaching the law, which will not save anyone.  A highly moral community can easily be self-deceived, as people put their faith in their own goodness instead of Christ.  

If we look to the example of the apostles in the New Testament, their message was first and foremost that of Christ crucified and raised to life again.  They preached Jesus as Lord, not the condemnation of the world.  I know that it appears that people are being soft on sin when they say that, but really I think the examples of Paul and Peter, Stephen when he was martyred, and the others show that their interactions with the non-Christian world were first and foremost about the Good News in Christ.  The Lord had so much more to say to the religious leaders than he did to the adulteress.  He invited Himself into Zaccheus' home before Zaccheus had repented of any wrongdoing.  And what was His criterion for healing someone?  He didn't make them run through a list of things they needed to change first.  Faith in Him is the basis and power of change.  And really, I think the vast majority of people--then and now--know full well the wrong things they do.  It's not the knowledge of sin that we are lacking--the law already brought that--it's the knowledge of the Savior.

Once someone has come to faith, then we begin the process of discipleship.  But discipling someone in Christ is something completely different than simply talking about how bad this, that or the other thing is in the world.  As Paul says, "For what have I to do with judging outsiders?  Do you not judge those who are within the church?"  (I Cor. 5:12)  We know from Scripture that the world is under the sway of the wicked one, we know that the world is filled with the lust of the flesh, the lust of they eyes, and the pride of life.  The question is whether that's all we have to say about it.  

I think that many Christians today believe that they are being prophetic when they go into the public square to decry the evils of our age.  And it could be that the Lord has called some to do just that.  But I think that we cannot forget that we as Christians are not proxy-judges for the Lord, evaluating, condemning, and approving people until Jesus returns.  In this current age, we're His witnesses, testifying of His power and work in us and bringing others to walk with Him as well.  

When Christians preach the evil of homosexuality, of feminism. of abortion, etc., they have given those people absolutely nothing to hope for, and certainly no means by which they can be forgiven or transformed.  Condemnation for sin is not the Gospel.   I was in a conversation with someone as promiscuous as the day is long, but he sure was anti-gay.  When we as believers focus on the sins of unelievers we ultimately shine the light back on our own sin and appear hypocritical.  But if we were focusing on Jesus' redemptive work on the Cross, inviting all to continually be made whole, then we acknowledge that we are all sinners in need of healing, that we are all on this journey toward the Kingdom, and that it's not just certain groups of people that God is wagging His finger at.


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## SND411 (Aug 21, 2010)

nicola.kirwan said:


> I think that preaching morality without the gospel is essentially preaching the law, which will not save anyone.  A highly moral community can easily be self-deceived, as people put their faith in their own goodness instead of Christ.
> 
> If we look to the example of the apostles in the New Testament, their message was first and foremost that of Christ crucified and raised to life again.  They preached Jesus as Lord, not the condemnation of the world.  I know that it appears that people are being soft on sin when they say that, but really I think the examples of Paul and Peter, Stephen when he was martyred, and the others show that their interactions with the non-Christian world were first and foremost about the Good News in Christ.  The Lord had so much more to say to the religious leaders than he did to the adulteress.  He invited Himself into Zaccheus' home before Zaccheus had repented of any wrongdoing.  And what was His criterion for healing someone?  He didn't make them run through a list of things they needed to change first.  Faith in Him is the basis and power of change.  And really, I think the vast majority of people--then and now--know full well the wrong things they do.  It's not the knowledge of sin that we are lacking--the law already brought that--it's the knowledge of the Savior.
> 
> ...



I am saving this response...

Beautiful....


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## Galadriel (Aug 23, 2010)

When I read Ms. Rice's comments it seemed to me that she considered her own preferences and values and then decided that Christianity didn't conform to them and thereby rejected Christianity. She made her own subjective values the standard.

Can Christians sin, or fall short, or be jerks? Sure. 
Does this means Christianity or the Church is superfluous? No.

Christ established a Church (Matthew 16:18). The Church is His Bride, His Body, and the custodian and teacher of His truths to the world. She is His chosen vehicle through which He communicates grace and salvation (via the preaching of the Gospel).

The Church has a purpose and a role, which cannot be ignored or pushed aside because it doesn't conform to people's subjective preferences. And no matter how much Ms. Rice claims she's following Christ, she is not following Him, but rather she's following her *idea* of Him. She constructed her own personal Christ in her mind.


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## Galadriel (Aug 23, 2010)

Abdijz said:


> As you become closer to God you will sin less but you will never get to the sinless status of Jesus. If that was possible, there would be no purpose of Him dying on the cross.




I think (through God's sustaining grace) it's inevitable that you will be sinless, at least at the point of death, because nothing imperfect or unclean can survive in God's presence in heaven.


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