# Tithes...my own personal revelation & study…



## Netta1 (Aug 24, 2009)

The scriptures below have been a real eye opener to me concerning tithes.  As of late, I was always wondering if some Church pastors (in particular) were incorrect in the way they preached tithes.  Then after leaving the subject matter alone for a while...I ran across these scriptures while attempting to read my bible from cover to cover…

*Deut 14:22-28*

 22* Be sure to set apart a tenth of everything your fields produce each year.* 23 Here are the things you should eat in the sight of the Lord your God. You should eat a tenth part of your grain, olive oil and fresh wine. You should also eat the male animals among your livestock that were born first to their mothers. Eat all of those things at the special place the Lord your God will choose. He will put his Name there. You will learn to have respect for him always. 

 24 But suppose the place the Lord will choose for his Name is too far away from you. And suppose your God has blessed you.* And your tenth part is too heavy for you to carry. 25 Then sell it for silver. Take the silver with you.* Go to the place the Lord your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy anything you like. It can be cattle or sheep. It can be any kind of wine. In fact, it can be anything else you wish. Then you and your family can eat there in the sight of the Lord your God. You can be filled with joy. 
 27 Don't forget to take care of the Levites who will live in your towns. They won't receive any part of the land as their share. 

 28 At the end of every three years, bring a tenth of everything you produce that year. Store it in your towns. 29 Then the Levites can come and eat. That's because they won't receive any part of the land as their share. The outsiders and widows who live in your towns can come. So can the children whose fathers have died.* Everyone can have plenty to eat. Then the Lord your God will bless you in everything you do.*

*I am not complete in my tithing study but based off of the scriptures above I have found that… 

1.The partaking of the tithes (at least the tithes addressed in the scriptures above) were meant for the people’s enjoyment; they brought them to GOD at the place HE said bring them and ENJOYED them there.  They brought them out of respect for GOD. 

2.Tithes were not traditionally money…tithes were taken off what the people already HAD and according to the scripture above tithes were food and drink. Also, how can you give a tithe from ZERO? If you have no grain, how are you going give a tithe from your grain?? 

3.If the people could not carry their grain/produce/food then it was exchanged for silver (i.e. money)-once the people arrived at the place GOD wanted them to be (the designed location) the tithe of silver (i.e. money) was exchanged (used to buy) whatever they wanted to FEAST on! The point was that they enjoyed it (ATE THEIR TITHE) in the sight of the LORD. 

4.The people were instructed take care of the Levites b/c the Levites did not have land (an inheritance) like everyone else. GOD was their inheritance.  

5.Every third year the people were instructed to bring put a tenth away from everything they produced into STORAGE. So that EVERYONE would have plenty to eat. *

It is an honor to GIVE and enjoy what GOD has blessed us with; tithing & giving are beautiful concepts when taught right from their historical perspectives. * IMO (which is based off the OT scriptures noted above) tithing is about enjoying the fruits of your labor, enjoying the blessings of GOD, sharing with those who don’t have, and doing it all in the presence/will/direction of GOD. *  I am afraid, however that “the church” in general, has made it burdensome… 

Just my two cents thus far…my study continues… Just thought I would share



b'rakh!


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## ladykaya (Aug 24, 2009)

I like your two cents...lol. I always felt that you can only tithe from what you have. I have been to a church that was very nice in the word and the people but I couldn't get over the fact that they would put people's names in the programs for those who tithed the week before. I knew I couldn't join a church like that because it seem to praise those who were giving and those who couldn't would feel guilt especially if they were unable to. 
I also feel the church is not the only place that you can tithe, just by giving to other people in need or just because is a gift that God appreciates. I'm still a learning Christian so all my thoughts and practices could be wrong, but In my heart and how I interpret the word, I feel it is a good place until I am properly proved wrong.


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## Netta1 (Aug 24, 2009)

^^ thanks for your response Ladyk^^


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## msa (Aug 24, 2009)

Hey Netta which bible version did you use (kjv, niv, etc)?


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## Netta1 (Aug 24, 2009)

Hey Msa! 

The scriptures above (Deut 14/ 22-28) came from the NIV...

Thanks for stopping by!


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## Prudent1 (Aug 24, 2009)

Great thread! Hopefully some others will share their understanding of this very important spiritual law as well. Here's what I have learned after time spent studying and praying about this spirtual law.
1. It is a spiritual law like sowing and reaping. Appying this law will benefit anyone but none believers will not enjoy the benefits to the full extent.
2. The tithe should come off the gross not the net amount. To do so is to give God seconds not 1st dibbs. Imagine cutting a whole pie into pieces, God should get the first slice period. The government does not tax you off of your net. They get their's upfront w/o our permssion. God should get his up front also before you touch anything.
3.You can only tithe from what you have. Your tenth may not be my tenth. God knows what he has allowed you to have. Take 10% of that.
4. The churches who post member's personal info for all to see are not walking in agape love. God does not put you on 'front street' (not without giving you multiple chances and warnings- and I've never seen it done in a tithing situation).  
5. Giving to other people is giving/gifting. Tithing is sacred and belongs only to God. The priest (local pastor) is *supposed* to be following *God's instructions *and using all of the tithes to bless those in need and to meet his needs(Yes, so they could eat back in the day. Now-a-days most of us are not worried about what we will eat as in an 'eat or die' scenario so it may be the church helping in areas like medical needs, electricity, shelter, etc)and he (the pastor) blesses you for being obedient in your giving. Our pastors are the equivalent to Levite priests. God does everything decent and in order. He chooses to speak to us through our pastors primarily. Of course he speaks to us personally as well if we choose to listen but primarily through our pastors.
6. The tithe must be given cheerfully. If not keep it to yourself.

God is not trying to take anything from us. It all belongs to him anyway. All we are doing is stewarding/ managing his money. If you decide not to tithe, that will not doom you to hell. You will not be promoted in some areas. You will not enjoy some of what God wishes to bestow upon you in this life. I want to keep going to higher levels in my relationship with God. I want whatever he has in mind for me. This next one took a while to sink in for me... if you are not tithing or are making excuses about whether to tithe off gross vs. net, you have a heart issue. You are not trusting God fully in this area. There is something you are afraid of not being able to take care of financially. Fear in any shape or form does not come from God. Maybe you have dug yourself into a debt hole. Maybe you love the stuff you're doing with your money more than you love God but whatever it is the root is a heart/trust issue. Selah. Some will reject that. Some are not ready to let go and trust God in that area. It may take a while. Pray about it. Really seek God to see if what I have said here line's up with his word. If I'm wrong, you have given 'extra' income to God. Since it's not ours anyway and we can't out give him where's the harm in that? I have personally seen this law at work in my life. Wonderful post Netta1!!

Lev 27:30
 30 " 'A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the LORD; it is *holy *to the LORD.

Mal 3:10
10 Bring the *whole tithe *into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.

Psa 50:10
10 for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills.
Matt.6:21
21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
If you’re not sure where your heart is look at your check book. It’s usually a good place to start.
Read the parable of the talents. Remember what Jesus said to Pontious Pilot. All authority belongs to him. He gives us a share of power and he will ask us to give an account of what we did. How we leveraged our power. If it was used to further the kingdom’s agenda and usher in the time of Christ’s return.
I wish you wholeness,
Prudent1


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## Chicoro (Aug 24, 2009)

This is a nice thread.


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## Netta1 (Aug 24, 2009)

Thanks for sharing your point of view prudent! Chicoro thanks for stopping by!


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## trenise (Aug 24, 2009)

ladykaya said:


> I like your two cents...lol. I always felt that you can only tithe from what you have. *I have been to a church that was very nice in the word and the people but I couldn't get over the fact that they would put people's names in the programs for those who tithed the week before.* I knew I couldn't join a church like that because it seem to praise those who were giving and those who couldn't would feel guilt especially if they were unable to.
> I also feel the church is not the only place that you can tithe, just by giving to other people in need or just because is a gift that God appreciates. I'm still a learning Christian so all my thoughts and practices could be wrong, but In my heart and how I interpret the word, I feel it is a good place until I am properly proved wrong.


 
I go to a church where the business record is passed around to all members. Not only do you know who tithed, but how much...and the people compare to see who gave the most. I don't know a scripture specifically to adress that, but that can't be right could it? That makes me very uncomfortable and I try not to put my name on anything I give.

Another church allowed a member to tithe her foodstamps because she nor her husband had a job to support their three little children.


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## Prudent1 (Aug 24, 2009)

trenise said:


> I go to a church where the business record is passed around to all members. Not only do you know who tithed, but how much...and the people compare to see who gave the most. I don't know a scripture specifically to adress that, but that can't be right could it? That makes me very uncomfortable and I try not to put my name on anything I give.
> 
> Another church allowed a member to tithe her foodstamps because she nor her husband had a job to support their three little children.


 
Wow!!


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## Supergirl (Aug 24, 2009)

Great insight Netta 

I am finally in a place where I tithe, not out of guilt or obligation, but out of thanksgiving. I was looking at my bank account online one day and saw my direct deposit. The amount wasn't a surprise or anything, but at that moment I was like "that's a good paycheck!" (and I'm not boasting, shoot I'm in education so not rich at all-well yes, rich through my Father) But at that moment, I was like "How could I not thank God for that by being a good steward of it and tithing from it."


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## msa (Aug 24, 2009)

trenise said:


> I go to a church where the business record is passed around to all members. Not only do you know who tithed, but how much...and the people compare to see who gave the most. I don't know a scripture specifically to adress that, but that can't be right could it? That makes me very uncomfortable and I try not to put my name on anything I give.
> 
> Another church allowed a member to tithe her foodstamps because she nor her husband had a job to support their three little children.




Both of those things are completely inappropriate and, as far as I know, illegal. A church should not be releasing its members financial information (how much they gave) to other members. Also, food stamps are to be used for food, not church tithing. That family could lose their benefits over that. And it's completely immoral to take food out of those children's mouths. If anything, the church should be giving to them, not the other way around.

Not to be rude, but you need to find a new church. Something is not right in that place and you don't want to get caught up in it.


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## CinnaMocha (Aug 24, 2009)

trenise said:


> I go to a church where the business record is passed around to all members. Not only do you know who tithed, but how much...and the people compare to see who gave the most. I don't know a scripture specifically to adress that, but that can't be right could it? That makes me very uncomfortable and I try not to put my name on anything I give.
> 
> Another church allowed a member to tithe her foodstamps because she nor her husband had a job to support their three little children.



I have never heard of such a thing, and it is so, I am quite stunned...It now makes me wonder if this is a regular occurence in churches and how it is allowed...I mean to be specific, when is that info provided for all your church members to view (just the thought makes me smh)???


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## msa (Aug 24, 2009)

CinnaMocha said:


> I have never heard of such a thing, and it is so, I am quite stunned...It now makes me wonder if this is a regular occurence in churches and how it is allowed...I mean to be specific, when is that info provided for all your church members to view (just the thought makes me smh)???




Personally, I've never heard of churches doing that before this thread. Now, my church does pass out a year end log/receipt so that members can do their taxes accurately, but that's to each individual.


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## CinnaMocha (Aug 24, 2009)

msa said:


> Personally, I've never heard of churches doing that before this thread. Now, my church does pass out a year end log/receipt so that members can do their taxes accurately, but that's to each individual.



Now what you are saying I am familiar with...I understand that, but to find out that some churches practice what Trenise experiences leaves me a little speechless...


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## Poohbear (Aug 25, 2009)

Prudent1 said:


> 2. The tithe should come off the gross not the net amount. To do so is to give God seconds not 1st dibbs. Imagine cutting a whole pie into pieces, God should get the first slice period. The government does not tax you off of your net. They get their's upfront w/o our permssion. God should get his up front also before you touch anything.
> 
> 3.You can only tithe from what you have. Your tenth may not be my tenth. God knows what he has allowed you to have. Take 10% of that.


 
I see you said these two statements above...Explain this: 

How can someone tithe 10% from their gross income if they do not have that? 

For instance: Let's say someone gross $3,000 a month and only nets $2,500 a month.  They have other bills to pay as well.  What if they only have $250 instead of $300 to tithe each month, and they are giving that $250 out of their cheerful heart and not grudgingly? And what if they have even less than 10% of their net income to tithe from? Does that mean we are still robbing God even though we are giving some type of monetary amount?

I ask this because at my church, my dad is the pastor. He says, "If you don't tithe 10% of your gross and plus some, you're robbing God and you're not fit for the kingdom of Heaven." I have a serious problem with that statement and do not agree at all. He's even said stuff like "I should make a rule that if you don't tithe 10% of your gross, you can't participate in church activities or benefit from the church." And you have to keep in mind that we have a small church which is in a poor diminishing community. Most people at our church have either little to no income. How do you all feel about his statements?


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## JinaRicci (Aug 25, 2009)

^^ I am speechless too. erplexed

On tithing (& offerings):  I agree that giving shouldn't be limited to money but I don't think we should hold back money to give something else-just me.  We give based on whatever we have-yes.   My feeling is that whether you give money or time or anything you own, it should be done freely not expecting something in return.  Whether or not you get something back shouldn't be the incentive to give- it should come from your heart.  It shouldn't also be inspired by fear- fear of not being blessed or fear of being cursed.   

I like story of the widow & the mite- she gave all that she had from her heart AND she trusted God to take care of her in her greatest moment of need.


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## Poohbear (Aug 25, 2009)

JinaRicci said:


> ^^ I am speechless too. erplexed
> 
> On tithing (& offerings): I agree that giving shouldn't be limited to money but I don't think we should hold back money to give something else-just me. We give based on whatever we have-yes. My feeling is that whether you give money or time or anything you own, it should be done freely not expecting something in return. Whether or not you get something back shouldn't be the incentive to give- it should come from your heart. It shouldn't also be inspired by fear- fear of not being blessed or fear of being cursed.
> 
> I like story of the widow & the mite- she gave all that she had from her heart AND she trusted God to take care of her in her greatest moment of need.


Thank you! I totally agree, especially on the part about not giving out of fear.  That's how I feel sometimes. When I give, I don't expect anything in return and I surely don't hold it back for something else. It's just that I feel like even if I give 10% to the church I attend, I feel like it's not enough in my father's eyes. He sometimes makes his statements as if they are direct words from God. It has been an issue on several other concepts in the bible (but that's a different thread). But anyway, I want to give from what God puts on my heart to give, not because of what some man thinks. I know he's a pastor/overseer of the church and he's my father, but he is not my God.


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## HeChangedMyName (Aug 25, 2009)

I agree that some preachers guilt people out of just giving money.  You are correct in that tithing isn't only monitary.  Some people don't have money so they can give time, or a talent that they have or some thing that they have to give, be it clothing, or food to the needy.

Also the scripture said tithe where He told us to.  True that.  You can't go planting your seed any and everywhere.  I tithe at my own church because I know that that is fertile ground.  We have outreach programs that the tithes go to cover food for the needy,  outreach programs and events for the community.  For me, monitary is the easy way to go as I don't really have excess time.  However when there is a call for clothing or food items I always want to give.  I have yet to feel  burdened with calls for money.  Thanks for the scriptures.


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## Poohbear (Aug 25, 2009)

SuperNova said:


> I agree that some preachers guilt people out of just giving money. *You are correct in that tithing isn't only monitary.* Some people don't have money so they can give time, or a talent that they have or some thing that they have to give, be it clothing, or food to the needy.
> 
> Also the scripture said tithe where He told us to. True that. You can't go planting your seed any and everywhere. I tithe at my own church because I know that that is fertile ground. We have outreach programs that the tithes go to cover food for the needy, outreach programs and events for the community. For me, monitary is the easy way to go as I don't really have excess time. However when there is a call for clothing or food items I always want to give. I have yet to feel burdened with calls for money. Thanks for the scriptures.


So why do a lot of pastors stress the aspect of tithing being monetary? What if you tithe 10% money-wise, and give like over 10% of your time and service to the Lord helping others and participating in outreach ministries? Does that time and service to the Lord truly count as a tithe, or is it just extra works that we should be doing anyway to exercise our faith and to glorify god?


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## JinaRicci (Aug 25, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> I see you said these two statements above...Explain this:
> 
> How can someone tithe 10% from their gross income if they do not have that?
> 
> ...


 
That's a tough question because I believe that tithing is between the individual & God. This is in the sense that only God knows the person's heart & what they have & don't have to give. I can tell them of my experiences & how God was faithful but I couldn't condemn them. Your father has a different role though as a pastor & he's right- you rob God when you don't give 10%- that's scripture. But I don't agree with saying that the person isn't fit for the kingdom of God. 

I have heard many sermons on tithing that may have good intentions but use fear or guilt to get the message across. To me the best preaching & encouragement on this subject is to just testify.


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## dicapr (Aug 25, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> I see you said these two statements above...Explain this:
> 
> How can someone tithe 10% from their gross income if they do not have that?
> 
> ...


 
I do not think that it is the churches business on how you give your tithe. It is between you and God.  That being said, I agree with giving off the gross.  If the government takes what is there's first, shouldn't God get what is his first.  The government takes what it is owed off the top and I just don't feel right telling God that because the government took what was their's I have to cut his portion to balance it out.  This is my own personal convicition and I would never belittle someone who feels that tithing off the net is what they are called to do.


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## BrownEyez22 (Aug 25, 2009)

My old church did the report thing as well, when I was growing up. It was printed every sunday, they stopped doing this in the mid-late 90s. Now they just mail you something for your tax records. 

I just called my dad to ask him why they did that (i was so young, he was the financial secretary). He said it was tradition and alot of churches did it that way a looong time ago (and had already stopped) and he was glad to see them get rid of it. Some people were more focused on what the church report said that sunday than what the message was about.

He also said some people who preached and taught the importance of tithing/offering and lived lavishly, were exposed and given the "sideeye" (for lack of a better word), for not tithing.

You could also request for your tithes to be made private. As I remember my grandmother giving a unusually large amount one month and she asked them not to publish it.

Just giving another experience with the tithing/report report thing.


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## Poohbear (Aug 25, 2009)

^^^ So are you all saying God wants us to tithe 10% of your gross income *even if you don't have it???* Go broke over a tithe given to a church and feel cheerful about it??? And is tithing only monetary???


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## Poohbear (Aug 25, 2009)

I was reading an article about tithing and saw this response to the article:

Another author, more unbiblical teaching. Far too many pastors, teachers, etc. call teach that Christians are supposed to "tithe." The tithe was strictly between God and Israel, and it had nothing to do with money.

Christians are never called to "tithe" but we are to follow the standard Paul sets forth in 2 Corithians 8 & 9.

We do not have to "worry" about giving on the "gross" or the "net." We do not "storehouse" tithe because we are not tithing food. The church is not the "storehouse."

Perhaps pastors who call and even threaten Christians to tithe should get their wish. Let their congregations dump a bunch of food into the collection plate. Then those pastors can store that in their storehouse.

We need to be "bereans" and those in no greater area than the whole issue of the role of the Mosaic law and the Christian were that is needed today.

I urge Christians to reject any teaching that attempts to place you under the Mosaic law in any sense. 

How do you all feel about this particular person's response?


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## HeChangedMyName (Aug 25, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> So why do a lot of pastors stress the aspect of tithing being monetary? What if you tithe 10% money-wise, and give like over 10% of your time and service to the Lord helping others and participating in outreach ministries? Does that time and service to the Lord truly count as a tithe, or is it just extra works that we should be doing anyway to exercise our faith and to glorify god?


 
In my opinion it is extra.  I guess some pastors do it because they feel that people will shirk on their monetary responsibility and those who are able to tithe, wont.  tithes also go to keep the church lights on, heat and maintanance, mortgage.  If those who have the money to tithe, don't tithe then the church may close and if it closes then it is no good to the community.  it's just a building.


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## HeChangedMyName (Aug 25, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> ^^^ So are you all saying God wants us to tithe 10% of your gross income *even if you don't have it???* Go broke over a tithe given to a church and feel cheerful about it??? And is tithing only monetary???


 

If you have faith in God providing your needs then you will have it.  That is something that I've learned from experience.  I tithed when i was receiving unemployment as well, even though it was less than my previous pay, and I made it through with God's help.  Tithing is an act of obedience.  Obedience demonstrates faith, especially when it doesn't look like it will work out to the good..  Faith reaps blessings because God knows that you truly trust Him.


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## Poohbear (Aug 25, 2009)

SuperNova said:


> In my opinion it is extra. I guess some pastors do it because they feel that people will shirk on their monetary responsibility and those who are able to tithe, wont. tithes also go to keep the church lights on, heat and maintanance, mortgage. If those who have the money to tithe, don't tithe then the church may close and if it closes then it is no good to the community. it's just a building.


 I understand that. I am someone that handles the finances for the church that I attend and see where all the money goes.  I just wonder with this: What if the majority of your church membership is people with no job? And the pastor has a job outside of preaching and makes the most money out of everyone at the church. As you can probably tell, I'm talking a lot about the church I attend. We have about 40-50 members and most of the members are children ages 15 and under.  We hardly have any adults. And the church is not getting any outside aid or help.  Should we encourage the adults who don't have jobs to get jobs so they can tithe in order for the church to keep running? And should they be cut off from the body of Christ if they don't have an income to tithe from?


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## HeChangedMyName (Aug 25, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> I understand that. I am someone that handles the finances for the church that I attend and see where all the money goes. I just wonder with this: What if the majority of your church membership is people with no job? And the pastor has a job outside of preaching and makes the most money out of everyone at the church. As you can probably tell, I'm talking a lot about the church I attend. We have about 40-50 members and most of the members are children ages 15 and under. We hardly have any adults. And the church is not getting any outside aid or help. Should we encourage the adults who don't have jobs to get jobs so they can tithe in order for the church to keep running? And should they be cut off from the body of Christ if they don't have an income to tithe from?


 

It sounds like a serious discussion needs to be had on the reality of the situation.  Maybe you all can become a 301(c) and get assistance.  However, you may have to take a stand and remind your pastor/father that blessings should be reflected in the body from the top down.  If the pastor is blessed, then so too should be the church. . .even in the face of unemployment.  I can tell you from my own experience at my church that even during times of financial strife, we have all had to buckle down but our pastor has never been rolling in dough while the members were broke.  If your father is tithing his proper tenth, then he can't be upset if the members can't match it.  It's not their responsibility.  God loves a cheerful giver and if your dad is tithing with disdain, then that sentiment is like cancer and will eat up the church.  He sets the tone and if He is saying or doing things that are not directed by God, then in all honesty, your church may suffer for his disobedience, that could mean financially.


ETA:  just had an idea.  Since a majority of the members are children and maybe the adults don't work, how about encouraging members to go back to school, maybe start a church daycare, that can bring in revenue because you can accept vouchers from the state for working people who can't afford to pay out of pocket.  

For the people who can cook, set up some good ole church fish fries to raise money.  For those who don't work during the day, set up mid day Bible studies that enable people to be in the Word other than just on Sunday mornings.


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## Poohbear (Aug 25, 2009)

SuperNova said:


> It sounds like a serious discussion needs to be had on the reality of the situation. Maybe you all can become a 301(c) and get assistance. However, you may have to take a stand and remind your pastor/father that blessings should be reflected in the body from the top down. If the pastor is blessed, then so too should be the church. . .even in the face of unemployment. I can tell you from my own experience at my church that even during times of financial strife, we have all had to buckle down but our pastor has never been rolling in dough while the members were broke. If your father is tithing his proper tenth, then he can't be upset if the members can't match it. It's not their responsibility. God loves a cheerful giver and if your dad is tithing with disdain, then that sentiment is like cancer and will eat up the church. He sets the tone and if He is saying or doing things that are not directed by God, then in all honesty, your church may suffer for his disobedience, that could mean financially.


Thank you! I agree. My father does tithe the proper tenth and gives over and beyond that.  The thing is, he is also getting paid by the church so it's like he actually gets most of his tithe back. I know in the Bible it says that a pastor should get paid for his work. Right now, the church is suffering financially. Sometimes, my father tends to overspend with the church money on things he feels will benefit the mission on the church. For instance, we've had a couple of pastor anniversary celebrations (which I don't believe in). The church has bought him these very expensive robes to wear (over $500 each). I just think that's too much when he can be just fine not wearing a robe. That's just an example.  But I don't know. I try not to worry about it too much but it's hard because I live with my parents and my dad complains about finances of the church everyday literally!


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## Poohbear (Aug 25, 2009)

SuperNova said:


> ETA: just had an idea. Since a majority of the members are children and maybe the adults don't work, how about encouraging members to go back to school, maybe *start a church daycare, that can bring in revenue *because you can accept vouchers from the state for working people who can't afford to pay out of pocket.
> 
> For the people who can cook,* set up some good ole church fish fries to raise money.* For those who don't work during the day, set up mid day Bible studies that enable people to be in the Word other than just on Sunday mornings.


My dad would consider those activities as fundraising, and he doesn't believe in fundraising and feels it's against God.


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## HeChangedMyName (Aug 25, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> My dad would consider those activities as fundraising, and he doesn't believe in fundraising and feels it's against God.


 
So, does he believe that God will just pour buckets of money on the church?  not being funny, but some people are literally waiting for that sort of miracle.  

Faith requires action behind it.  God wont bless the servant who sits on his talents or buries it in the ground.  We are all gifted to go into the world and spread the gospel and we all have our ways to do it.  How many children would be blessed by being under the daily care of Christians teaching them what unconditional love is?  How many parents in the community would go out and get jobs so that they can take car of their family if only they knew that there was someone that they trusted who could take care of their kids?  being a single parent myself. . .good safe daycare is a true blessing in and of itself.


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## Poohbear (Aug 25, 2009)

SuperNova said:


> So, does he believe that God will just pour buckets of money on the church? not being funny, but some people are literally waiting for that sort of miracle.
> 
> Faith requires action behind it. God wont bless the servant who sits on his talents or buries it in the ground. We are all gifted to go into the world and spread the gospel and we all have our ways to do it. How many children would be blessed by being under the daily care of Christians teaching them what unconditional love is? How many parents in the community would go out and get jobs so that they can take car of their family if only they knew that there was someone that they trusted who could take care of their kids? being a single parent myself. . .good safe daycare is a true blessing in and of itself.


 
He doesn't feel like God will pour buckets of money on the church. He believes that the money that the church receives should come solely from church members' giving...not from income-raising activities.

And I agree with you about faith requires action.  My dad wouldn't be opposed to a daycare.  It's just that with him it would be a non-paying daycare for the people who are watching the children.  It's almost like that now. I work with the youth on Sundays and Wednesdays and sometimes other days of the week if we have some type of outreach ministry going on, and they tend to be very rowdy. Most of the time, we are actually feeding and babysitting them. We do our best to get the Word of God across to them and don't get me wrong, a lot of the youth have come to Christ through our teaching of the Word, but sometimes it can be a hassle working with these kids all the time.


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## Netta1 (Aug 25, 2009)

I most certainly don't have all the answers... but I feel great when I give a piece of what I have to someone else who has less...

There is a true Joy in giving especially when you give under GODS direction... Even the simplest giving (monetary or non-monetary) can bless someone and hopefully show them GODs love..

So I go with the notion that you can't give what you don't have. If we look at the OT testament of the bible everything that GOD required of the people (concerning) the specifications of building his temple was based on what they already had in the CAMP.

I understand that the present day church has bills to pay, LOL maybe they should charge a membership fee then just maybe they could preach the real biblical definition of what the tithe means...

I have been to churches where they have said in SERVICE, "do not expect us to pray for you if you don't have a tithe!!!" 

I have been in churches where the preacher has actually STOPPED/HALTED the service until a financial goal was reached!!

On a more positive note...

I have been in churches that used money to take care of the people within the community.. They gave out dinners to the people in the community for FREE...on a regular bases...

I have heard of churches that took the financial tithe and gave it to a member (who was in need) during church service...The pastor BLESSED the member by GIVING them the tithes! 

Can you imagine if everyone brought a piece of what they already had (be it talent, money, time ext), with a sincere heart…ready to share with those who didn't have...at the place where GOD instructed?? 

Could you imagine what it must have been like to enjoy the blessings of your produce at GODs direction and in HIS presence... If I was a Deut 14:22 believer I would've politely taken 10% of my harvest and followed GOD too...


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## Ramya (Aug 25, 2009)

SuperNova said:


> If you have faith in God providing your needs then you will have it.  That is something that I've learned from experience.  I tithed when i was receiving unemployment as well, even though it was less than my previous pay, and I made it through with God's help.  Tithing is an act of obedience.  Obedience demonstrates faith, especially when it doesn't look like it will work out to the good..  Faith reaps blessings because God knows that you truly trust Him.


 
ITA! When you tithe you are seeking first the kingdom of God as instructed in Romans. I have always gotten some kind of return on my tithes. I get money that I'm not even expecting all the time! Blessings come from any and everywhere due to God's faithfulness.


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## Poohbear (Aug 25, 2009)

Ramya said:


> ITA! When you tithe you are seeking first the kingdom of God as instructed in Romans. *I have always gotten some kind of return on my tithes. I get money that I'm not even expecting all the time!* Blessings come from any and everywhere due to God's faithfulness.


 But this is not true for everyone that tithes.


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## Ramya (Aug 25, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> But this is not true for everyone that tithes.



How so? God does not favor me more than anyone else. If He blesses me and my messiness, I'm sure He could find it in Him to bless everyone else. Tithing can be uncomfortable. Some people start at 2% and build up to 10%. But you have to do something and start somewhere. I mean my own pastor struggled with tithing when he first got saved. Now he chooses to tithe 14% in order to always give an offering. I do see it as stealing and in my quest to be a woman of the highest integrity, that money is not mine.  If it is mine, God will give it back to me because He is the perfect example of integrity.


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## HeChangedMyName (Aug 25, 2009)

Ramya said:


> ITA! When you tithe you are seeking first the kingdom of God as instructed in Romans. I have always gotten some kind of return on my tithes. *I get money that I'm not even expecting all the time! Blessings come from any and everywhere due to God's faithfulness.*


 
Yesss!!!!  isn't it a blessing.  I bought a car. . .cash. . .while unemployed.  God Did That!!!!  and still had  my tithes in the plate.  Hallelujiah.  Jehovah Jireh


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## Highly Favored8 (Aug 25, 2009)

SuperNova said:


> If you have faith in God providing your needs then you will have it. That is something that I've learned from experience. I tithed when i was receiving unemployment as well, even though it was less than my previous pay, and I made it through with God's help. Tithing is an act of obedience. Obedience demonstrates faith, especially when it doesn't look like it will work out to the good.. Faith reaps blessings because God knows that you truly trust Him.


 

ITA with what you just said.


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## Poohbear (Aug 25, 2009)

Ramya said:


> How so? *God does not favor me more than anyone else.* If He blesses me and my messiness, I'm sure He could find it in Him to bless everyone else. Tithing can be uncomfortable. Some people start at 2% and build up to 10%. But you have to do something and start somewhere. I mean my own pastor struggled with tithing when he first got saved. Now he chooses to tithe 14% in order to always give an offering. I do see it as stealing and in my quest to be a woman of the highest integrity, that money is not mine.  If it is mine, God will give it back to me because He is the perfect example of integrity.


I didn't say that God favors you more than anyone else. And I didn't say the money belongs to me. Everything belongs to God. I'm simply saying that not *everyone* gets money out of nowhere or unexpectly from the act of tithing.

Plus, where in the Bible does it say to start at a lower percent and work your way up to 10% or more when you can afford it? I thought the Bible says that you are robbing God if you don't give 10% of your gross. erplexed


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## HeChangedMyName (Aug 25, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> But this is not true for everyone that tithes.


 It should be though.  I'm not saying that every person will experience winfalls of cash, but a cheerful and faithful tither should never be without what they need.  The wants are all extra.  When I tithe, I expect that God has already prepared a way for me to do it continually.  I enjoy it.  It's like a game between me and God.  I do it out of obedience and wait to see what he will have in store.  because I know there is always something whether it is monetary, materially, or spiritually that I receive.


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## JinaRicci (Aug 25, 2009)

SuperNova said:


> It should be though. *I'm not saying that every person will experience winfalls of cash, but a cheerful and faithful tither should never be without what they need.* The wants are all extra. When I tithe, I expect that God has already prepared a way for me to do it continually. I enjoy it. It's like a game between me and God. I do it out of obedience and wait to see what he will have in store. because I know there is always something whether it is monetary, materially, or spiritually that I receive.


 
That's it!


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## msa (Aug 25, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> ^^^ So are you all saying God wants us to tithe 10% of your gross income *even if you don't have it???* Go broke over a tithe given to a church and feel cheerful about it??? And is tithing only monetary???


 

I don't believe in tithing money if you don't have any money to give. Tithing your time is of equal (and sometimes greater) value. 

Frankly, when I don't have money to tithe, I don't. By that I mean if I know that giving a tithe means bills won't get paid, then I will not tithe monetarily at that time. Instead, I volunteer my time cleaning the church, watching the nursery, helping with sunday school, etc. etc. 

But, I will say that people are taught to tithe without being taught how to be good stewards of what the Lord provides for them. I see that from the pastor's on down to the bench members. If you don't budget correctly, then of course you'll have so many bills that you can't tithe without going into debt. That isn't the Lord's fault, that's yours.


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## JinaRicci (Aug 25, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> Thank you! I agree. My father does tithe the proper tenth and gives over and beyond that. The thing is, he is also getting paid by the church so it's like he actually gets most of his tithe back. I know in the Bible it says that a pastor should get paid for his work. Right now, the church is suffering financially. Sometimes, my father tends to overspend with the church money on things he feels will benefit the mission on the church. For instance, we've had a couple of pastor anniversary celebrations (which I don't believe in). The church has bought him these very expensive robes to wear (over $500 each). I just think that's too much when he can be just fine not wearing a robe. That's just an example. But I don't know. I try not to worry about it too much but it's hard because I live with my parents and my dad complains about finances of the church everyday literally!


 
Poohbear- it sounds like there is a serious discussion that God is preparing you to have with your dad. There are a couple of different things at play here. You seem to have very strong convictions on what happens with the church finances and I agree with you. I don't want to say too much and offend you b/c it is your dad & I'm guessing it's a hard conversation for you to have b/c of those same reasons.

I didn't know that the Bible said a pastor should get paid. (?) In any event, management of church finances is a huge responsibility that God expects to be done right. Pray about it and God will reveal.


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## Ramya (Aug 25, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> I didn't say that God favors you more than anyone else. And I didn't say the money belongs to me. Everything belongs to God. I'm simply saying that not *everyone* gets money out of nowhere or unexpectly from the act of tithing.
> 
> Plus, where in the Bible does it say to start at a lower percent and work your way up to 10% or more when you can afford it? I thought the Bible says that you are robbing God if you don't give 10% of your gross. erplexed



I never said that it says to do that in the bible. I'm saying that sometimes you have to start SOMEWHERE in order to be consistent. It beats not tithing at all. Especially when one is genuine with God in what they are trying to do. I know people who 'can't afford to tithe' but give everything that they can. They eventually began to tithe the whole amount because they were in the act of consistently giving.


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## Ramya (Aug 25, 2009)

msa said:


> I don't believe in tithing money if you don't have any money to give. Tithing your time is of equal (and sometimes greater) value.
> 
> Frankly, when I don't have money to tithe, I don't. By that I mean if I know that giving a tithe means bills won't get paid, then I will not tithe monetarily at that time. Instead, I volunteer my time cleaning the church, watching the nursery, helping with sunday school, etc. etc.
> 
> *But, I will say that people are taught to tithe without being taught how to be good stewards of what the Lord provides for them. *I see that from the pastor's on down to the bench members. If you don't budget correctly, then of course you'll have so many bills that you can't tithe without going into debt. That isn't the Lord's fault, that's yours.



I totally agree with the bold. If you are a poor steward with a little, you will be a poor steward with a lot.


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## Poohbear (Aug 25, 2009)

Ramya said:


> I never said that it says to do that in the bible. I'm saying that sometimes you have to start SOMEWHERE in order to be consistent. It beats not tithing at all. Especially when one is genuine with God in what they are trying to do. I know people who 'can't afford to tithe' but give everything that they can. They eventually began to tithe the whole amount because they were in the act of consistently giving.


 I know people who "can't afford to tithe" and give everything they can too... But if we want to be hardcore tithers and go strictly by the Bible, isn't it wrong to give less than 10% of your gross income? Is it wrong to give 10% of your net income? Someone here said you are robbing God if you don't give 10%. My dad says the same thing. The Bible strictly says to give 10% of your firstfruits. Why are there exceptions for some on how much to give and not others? And doesn't the New Testament overrule the Old Testament law of giving? "Give as you are able" "Give with a cheerful heart" "Give out of what you have and not from what you have not"...

_Disclaimer: Just so you all know, I'm not against tithing. I am someone that tithes 10%. I just have a problem with some things people say about tithing and giving, and that's why I'm throwing these questions out there._


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## Poohbear (Aug 25, 2009)

JinaRicci said:


> Poohbear- it sounds like there is a serious discussion that God is preparing you to have with your dad. There are a couple of different things at play here. You seem to have very strong convictions on what happens with the church finances and I agree with you. I don't want to say too much and offend you b/c it is your dad & I'm guessing it's a hard conversation for you to have b/c of those same reasons.
> 
> I didn't know that the Bible said a pastor should get paid. (?) In any event, management of church finances is a huge responsibility that God expects to be done right. Pray about it and God will reveal.


 Yeah I've had a few discussion with my dad about this issue. I've even suggested for him to give up the money he receives from the church if the church is suffering financially. And he said "No, that would be unfair to the church who loves their pastor. They don't want to take away their blessing from their pastor, blah blah blah" but my parents gross 6 figures combined from their regular jobs!


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## JinaRicci (Aug 25, 2009)

Ramya said:


> I totally agree with the bold. If you are a poor steward with a little, you will be a poor steward with a lot.


 
So true! People have problems with tithing & being good stewards when they don't have much money and when they have lots of it. 

I tithed when I was a student & there were some months that were difficult when I thought that I would pay my bills first then pay the tithe that was owed the next month. Yeah... See my reasoning at the time was that I was still paying my tithe- just a bit later... Let me say when I did that I was always broke- the money just seemed to disappear. But when I paid my tithe first, somehow everything got paid with leftovers. 

All God is saying is 'Prove me.' You give your tithe in faith knowing that God will take care of you.  It defies our human understanding & rationale but that's why it's the evidence of things not seen.


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## msa (Aug 25, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> Yeah I've had a few discussion with my dad about this issue. I've even suggested for him to give up the money he receives from the church if the church is suffering financially. And he said "No, that would be unfair to the church who loves their pastor. They don't want to take away their blessing from their pastor, blah blah blah" but my parents gross 6 figures combined from their regular jobs!


 

Poohbear, I don't want to say anything negative about your father so please don't think I'm attacking him. But his logic doesn't make sense and in my eyes it's "stealing" from the church and its members.

If the church is in financial trouble and he doesn't need the money, then he shouldn't be taking it. It is unfair to the members who could benefit from a food basket or a bill being paid by that money. It is not a blessing to take money from people who can't afford to give it. And it surely can't be a blessing if the church's finances are in trouble. 

Pooh, I don't envy your situation. It's going to take a lot of prayer to see the other side of this one.


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## Prudent1 (Aug 26, 2009)

Poohbear,
Sorry it took a while to get back here. I understand what you are saying. I can only speak of what I know to be true and what others I know personally have experienced. The kingdom of God's way of doing things looks foolish to the world and often times God instructs us to do things that appear to be unrealistic. In fact that is his normal M.O. The kingdom's ways are opposite in almost every area to everything we have ever learned our entire lives. You asked if you make $3000 but bring home $2500 are you supposed to pay $300. Yes. From my understanding yes. That leaves $2200 to live off of in our example. You should budget and expect to live on that $2200. If you have done something to exceed that you have to make the necessary steps to change your situation and live on less than you make period. Maybe that means you will have to sell that car. Move out of that apartment. Not keep charging stuff on your credit cards etc. Anytime you have an out go vs income problem adjustments must be made period. They are temporary. God honors your obedience. The righteous never are forsaken or left to beg for their needs. How pitiful would that make God? The children of satan are living it up and we are destitute?
If they have less to tithe from that money is going somewhere. We have to learn to control our money or it will control us. You end up with too many bills and nothing to tithe or give. It is a vicious circle they will become trapped in. When I say ‘you’ below I am not directing that at your personally ok?

*It's just that I feel like even if I give 10% to the church I attend, I feel like it's not enough in my father's eyes. *Your tithing needs to based on what God’s word says not your dad. Children must obey their parents. Adults must honor their parents. There is a difference between the two.

*What if you tithe 10% money-wise, and give like over 10% of your time and service to the Lord helping others and participating in outreach ministries? Does that time and service to the Lord truly count as a tithe, or is it just extra works that we should be doing anyway to exercise our faith and to glorify god? *I try to always reference the bible as the final authority in my life. I have never seen a scripture that says you can tithe time or services. At one point in my life I said the same things listed above. All I can tell you is that I started to tithe at a time when my income was very low and I was a newly divorced mom with little kids and no child support. There are times when someone sent me the exact amount I needed to pay my bills or someone bought food for us. The very things I had only spoken to God about. There was no way another human could have known how much or what I desired b/c those things were only spoken in my heart. I was afraid to tithe off of my gross but I took that step of faith and have not looked back. 

*So are you all saying God wants us to tithe 10% of your gross income even if you don't have it??? Go broke over a tithe given to a church and feel cheerful about it??? And is tithing only monetary??? *
In your example if you take home $2500 you do have $300. If you are going broke over something, you need to make lifestyle changes. Tithing is only monetary until I see some scriptures that say otherwise. If you go to pick up your check on your next payday but it is short and the Hr dept says they are going to do nice services for you in lieu of how would that fly?

*How do you all feel about this particular person's response?* 
I have seen and read all kinds of articles that tell you not to tithe or some other variation. All I can tell you is what I know. Tithing is a spiritual law. Just like gravity is a natural law. You don’t have to understand gravity. You can read articles that will tell you gravity is not real by ppl w/ Phd behind their names. You don’t have to like gravity. But I assure you if you walk off of a 10 story building in the morning, you are coming down. Tithing works.

*Should we encourage the adults who don't have jobs to get jobs so they can tithe in order for the church to keep running? And should they be cut off from the body of Christ if they don't have an income to tithe from? *I don’t think the purpose of the adult’s jobs should be to tithe. They should work b/c it is biblical and also b/c they will be able to fulfill their responsibility to their kids or their debtors. Then yes, after they have been blessed by God with jobs and have health to work the jobs they should begin tithing. Nowhere in the bible are there examples of ppl cut off from the church b/c they did not tithe. There are some examples of ppl being dismissed from the church but this is not one. Tithing is not a ticket to heaven. Not tithing will not send you to hell. You will not walk in the fullness of life God desires for you if you don’t tithe but it is not a salvation issue.

*Sometimes, my father tends to overspend with the church money on things he feels will benefit the mission on the church. *I am not downing your dad. It is good he pays his tithe. Yes, there are many scriptures that clearly tell us God wants his priests taken very good care of. Your church needs a budget too. If there was a budget in place (and it was being adhered to) based on income there should never be overspending going on. Especially not often. This hurts the church. How can it help train ppl for jobs or feed and clothe those w/o jobs at this time and meet their needs if it is broke due to overspending? Then he is complaining? When he overspent? Complaining is dangerous and disrespectful towards God but that’s another thread.

*But this is not true for everyone that tithes.*Yes Poohbear it is. God does not have favorites. The blessings of the Lord are for whosoever… Now we may have heart issues, trust issues, bitterness, jealousy or any # of things that are known blessing blockers. That is usually the reason why someone doesn’t see manifestations.

*I thought the Bible says that you are robbing God if you don't give 10% of your gross.*It does. There is also a passage that says if you don’t pay your 10% until later you are supposed to add a certain amount of interest. I can’t remember the verse right now. 

*Why are there exceptions for some on how much to give and not others? And doesn't the New Testament overrule the Old Testament law of giving?*There are no exceptions. To do so would make God a liar. The NT does not overrule the OT. It completes it. If OT ppl were expected to give under the law how much more should we be doing under grace?


In love,
Prudent1


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## Poohbear (Aug 26, 2009)

Thanks Prudent1 for your response! I agree with most everything you said.

About my church, we have a treasurer that sets a budget for the church but my dad is so controlling that he overrules that budget.  He wants to spend more than what we have.

And I gave that tithing example of gross $3,000 and net $2,500 because I know this guy in that situation where he has just regular bills (house payment, car payment, car insurance, electric bill, cable bill, phone bill, child support, student loan) and he only has about $100 a month left over from his net pay after bills are taken out. How can he give $300 a month to God if he's only left with $100 a month which he'll need for food and gas?

Also about receiving blessings for tithing... I'm not saying there's some people who are not being blessed from tithing... I know God doesn't have favorites and I know he doesn't bless some and not others.  He blesses all His children in some type of way. And I agree that there are some people who have jealousy issues as well. *I was simply saying not everyone gets money from out of nowhere unexpectantly like Ramya said earlier.* I agree that people are blessed from tithing but not always monetarily blessed which isn't necessarily a bad thing since money isn't everything and shouldn't be our focus in life.


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## HeChangedMyName (Aug 26, 2009)

Prudent1, I'm giving you a Holy High Five!


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## JinaRicci (Aug 26, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> Thanks Prudent1 for your response! I agree with most everything you said.
> 
> About my church, we have a treasurer that sets a budget for the church but my dad is so controlling that he overrules that budget. He wants to spend more than what we have.
> 
> ...


 
I agree- not everyone may be blessed with money but God may bless you with other things- food, shelter, health-which money can't replace but you can spend a lot of money on to fix. I get what you're saying there's no guarantee you'll get back $ but it's not about that- it's saying God I have this much & I trust you to multiply it to take care of me & take care of your sheep. 

My advice to your friend- cut the cable (so to speak). Like Prudent said- we need to budget- cut the things out that keep us from being faithful. A friend of mine did exactly that recently- she couldn't understand how she could give tithe & eat- now she does.


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## Poohbear (Aug 26, 2009)

JinaRicci said:


> I agree- not everyone may be blessed with money but God may bless you with other things- food, shelter, health-which money can't replace but you can spend a lot of money on to fix. I get what you're saying there's no guarantee you'll get back $ but it's not about that- it's saying God I have this much & I trust you to multiply it to take care of me & take care of your sheep.
> 
> My advice to your friend- cut the cable (so to speak). Like Prudent said- we need to budget- cut the things out that keep us from being faithful. A friend of mine did exactly that recently- she couldn't understand how she could give tithe & eat- now she does.


 Exactly!

And his cable bill is about $60 a month. So when he cuts that, he'll only have $160 left each month for food, gas, and tithes.  And see, he still doesn't have that $300 (10% of his gross) to give in tithes, is he still considered robbing God?


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## Renaylor (Aug 26, 2009)

I have been having issues with tithing as well. My husband doesn't seem to understand about tithing the 10th of what you have.He seems to think its not in the bible when in fact it is. He gives what he can to the church when he has it and when doesn't he gives only what he can afford. I have tried to explain this to him. He got upset with me over a bill that accidently went upaid for a while and ended up in collections(the bill was in his name) I had to hold off paying it because the service had been cut(by us) and we switched to another service provider. He said the bill should have been paid first and that God says we have to pay who we owe first. I had up to this point tithing a tenth of my salary given most to my church and the rest to another ministry. It was no problem. We gained a windfall back because we moved and did not have to pay private school fees for our kids any longer and we had finished paying another bill off. Unfortunately my husband had to take a pay cut, he had to pay taxes on money he borrowed from his 401k(which will be paid by December) and he was borrowing money from a family member to help offset the cost(he quickly pays this back). He doesn't always tell me everything I need to know when I need to know it or wait until the last minute and since I do the budget I am at a disadvantage.My husband does have a seasonal second job and we have cut expenses since we moved into new house. The Lord has been so good to us because we were able to get this house at time the credit markets started to hose up ,sell our apartment at a time when noone was buying, and live in a fantastic school district where we don't have to send out kids through private education. We are stewards of what he gives and I want to make sure the Lord gets what he is supposed to. However it seems like every month due to carelessness on the part of family certain expenses that don't have to exist suddenly appear. I have spoken to them about it and have cut back on buying the extras. I always bring my lunch and breakfast to work. There was some stuff my husband could have done too but I know he is doing the best he can. I want to ask for a pay raise to offset what my husband lost in his paycut but right now where I am working it is tight like it is everywhere. I have been praying on this and there is no way around it- I will continue to tithe my tenth and tighten my belt tighter.


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## Prudent1 (Aug 26, 2009)

Renaylor said:


> I have been having issues with tithing as well.  *My husband doesn't seem to understand about tithing the 10th of whatyou have*.He seems to think its not in the bible when in fact it is. He gives what he can to the church when he has it and when doesn't he gives only what he can afford. I have tried to explain this to him. He got upset with me over a bill that accidently went upaid for a while and ended up in collections(the bill was in his name) I had to hold off paying it because the service had been cut(by us) and we switched to another service provider. He said the bill should have been paid first and that God says we have to pay who we owe first. I had up to this point tithing a tenth of my salary given most to my church and the rest to another ministry. It was no problem. We gained a windfall back because we moved and did not have to pay private school fees for our kids any longer and we had finished paying another bill off. Unfortunately my husband had to take a pay cut, he had to pay taxes on money *he borrowed from his 401k*(which will be paid by December) and *he was borrowing money from a* *family member to help offset the cost*(he quickly pays this back). *He doesn't always tell me everything I need to know when I need to know it or wait until the last minute and since I do the budget I am at a disadvantage.*My husband does have a seasonal second job and we have cut expenses since we moved into new house. The Lord has been so good to us because we were able to get this house at time the credit markets started to hose up ,sell our apartment at a time when noone was buying, and live in a fantastic school district where we don't have to send out kids through private education. We are stewards of what he gives and I want to make sure the Lord gets what he is supposed to. However it seems like every month due to carelessness on the part of family certain expenses that don't have to exist _suddenly appear_. I have spoken to them about it and have cut back on buying the extras. I always bring my lunch and breakfast to work. There was some stuff my husband _could have done_ too but I know he is doing the best he can. *I want to ask for a pay raise to offset what my husband lost in his paycut but right now where I am working it is tight like it is everywhere.* I have been praying on this and there is no way around it- I will continue to tithe my tenth and tighten my belt tighter.


 Hi Renaylor!!
I feel like a broken record sometimes but your situation sounds similar to mine when I was married. My husband totally disapproved of me tithing or giving. He thought I was foolish. We are all learning and growing and still very much human but very much God's children too. I thank Netta1 for starting this discussion b/c we can all learn from each other here. I wanted to address some of your comments in hopes that you can learn something from my own personal experiences. Please do not ever think that I am arrogant or nosey. If we are looking at a pig, I'm gonna call it a pig. I am not going to call it a cow for purpose of being PC. I just don't have that in me. People get hurt when you aren't honest. There is a difference between hurt feelings(we can learn to get over those) and damaged souls (only God can mend). Ok, the word tells us in many places about borrowing being not a good thing for us. We live in a world where no one has patience and as a result credit looks really good- at the time. Our grandparents had less to work with but they bought homes, cars, sent kids to school, ate, etc all w/o having large amounts of debt. They knew how to wait and to save money.There is power and freedom in delayed gratification. They worked so hard to allow us to have the lifestyle we have. Borrowing money from a 401k is almost never a good idea unless someone's life is on the line. There are substantial penalties from the governmment. Plus if your husband loses or tries to leave his job, that money becomes due immediately! When we borrow money from relatives it changes the dynamics of the relationship. Turkey at Thanksgiving just doesn't taste the same you know? It can put all the wrong ppl in your business. Which can then cause stress on the marriage. It is just not good.  Be that as it may, what's done is done. What is the game plan and timeline for paying these debts off (rhetorical)? I see you are trying to do a budget but it is not fair for one person to totally relinquish the budgeting to their spouse. It leaves room for lots of finger pointing. Plus a marriage is a partnership. One of the top 3 reasons for divorce in America are money problems. If one person is better at something than the other that's fine but both parties should have equal say and both parties need to be fully aware of where the money is going and what the plan is for accomplishing shared goals. In other words, you have a marriage issue that is masquerading as a money issue. Communication is vital in a successful marriage. 
Asking for a payraise can be a good idea.   You know your circumstances. If you do decide to ask for a raise, have your stuff together. You need to be able to clearly demonstrate your monetary value and all contributions past as well as how you can make them more money in the future. Powerpoint, flow charts, whatever it takes. Yes things are tough right now for some but, *there is no recession in the kingdom.* You gave God the praise for him letting you buy your home in your post. Can't he do a little something, something in this area too? Don't limit God. He can get you a raise or a new job or as many others have stated he finds ways to get you what you need. You may get a gas card w/ a large balance. You may get gift cards for the grocery store or something. Maybe it will be clothes for the kids. Think and say something good is going to happen to me! Where we tend to mess up is if he provides for us in that way we don't take the money we were going to use for 'x' and pay it towards debts. Instead we spend it. God gives all who ask for it wisdom. Pray and ask him for witty ideas and concepts. Maybe you can save your company $$ and be rewarded for it. Maybe you can start an online business. Have a yard sale. Can you cook, sew, speak, write well? These things can generate extra income too. There is *nothing* too hard for God. I've said all of this to say God is the one who can enlighten and change your husband's mind. There are two great _'prayers for your husbands'_ in this Christian forum. Search for them and begin to cover your DH. Your job is to look to the one who can change this and pray for your husband. Then comes the hard part- waiting. Ask God for grace to wait. Celebrate the little victories along the way. Write things down in a notebook. They will give you hope along the way. Here is a book I highly recommend you read. It is called the _Total Money Make-over_ by Dave Ramsey. If you don't want to buy it check it out at the library. Here is a link to his website www.daveramsey.com. Start listening to his free show online. Also, for ideas on how to generate income check out www.48days.com. It is Dan Miller's website. He has a free podcast too. Both of these men are Christian counselors who have changed my life. Also check out Crown Financial Ministries at www.crown.org. When we take that first step of faith to begin the turn around process God supernaturally intervenes. 

Prov 22:7-
*7* The rich rule over the poor, 
       and the borrower is servant to the lender.

James 2:20-
*20*You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?
Psa 121:1-2
*1* I lift up my eyes to the hills—
       where does my help come from? 
*2* My help comes from the LORD, 
       the Maker of heaven and earth. 
Psa 23:1-
*1* The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want.


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## Prudent1 (Aug 26, 2009)

And I gave that tithing example of gross $3,000 and net $2,500 because I know this guy in that situation where he has just regular bills (*house payment, car payment, car insurance, electric bill, cable bill, phone bill, child **support, student loan)* and he only has about $100 a month left over from his net pay after bills are taken out. How can he give $300 a month to God if he's only left with $100 a month which he'll need for food and gas?

Also about receiving blessings for tithing... I'm not saying there's some people who are not being blessed from tithing... I know God doesn't have favorites and I know he doesn't bless some and not others. He blesses all His children in some type of way. And I agree that there are some people who have jealousy issues as well. *I was simply saying not everyone gets money from **out of nowhere unexpectantly like Ramya said earlier.* I agree that people are blessed from tithing but not always monetarily blessed which isn't necessarily a bad thing since money isn't everything and shouldn't be our focus in life. 
Hi Poohbear ( I love that name ),
So in response to the guy friend. He needs to make some lifestyle changes. The necessities of life are Food, Shelter, and Utilities. That said cable as you stated does not qualify. He may need to sell the car and pay cash for a reliable used car. Cars. boats, etc should not exceed 1/2 of your annual income b/c these things drop too much in value and we usually end up upside down on them(owing more than they are worth).  That will lower his insurance rate too probably. If he is not over when is the last time he shopped aroung for better insurance rates for his things? It doesn't sound like he was ready for home ownership. Your rent or mortgage payment should not exceed 1/4 of your take home pay. If it does you will struggle. Can he put his loans in forebearance? Can he reapply and change to graduated payments or income contingent payments with a solid plan to turn his finances around? In his current situation he has created a scenario where he is a bona-fide slave to so many entities. 

ITA not everyone will get their blessing via money and however he wants to bless me I'm down with it. Money should never be the main focus for any of us but we must recognize it takes money to run God's house just like it takes money to run ours. Not paying our tithes is still robbery. We all have to seek him to get us out of our messes. When I really got serious about tithing. I turned off the cable, cell phone, and stopped eating out and going out. People thought I was crazy:burning: . See I was living like no one else and in a few years Poohbear I will be living like no one else b/c I'll be debt free. Money is only a tool though. 

Prov 22:7-
7 The rich rule over the poor, 
       and the borrower is servant to the lender.


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## JinaRicci (Aug 26, 2009)

Poohbear said:


> Exactly!
> 
> And his cable bill is about $60 a month. So when he cuts that, he'll only have $160 left each month for food, gas, and tithes. And see, he still doesn't have that $300 (10% of his gross) to give in tithes, is he still considered robbing God?


 
I hear you- I really do & I am sympathetic to his situation. Cutting the cable was mentioned as an example of how he could reduce his monthly expenses. My point was there is room to trim those bills. I can't tell someone how to spend their $ but if I only had $100 to cover food & gas & incidentals for the month there is no way I would be spending more than half of that amount on cable. 

This is a matter of principle. It's about being a good steward & living w/in one's means- Christian or not, tithing or not. There are needs and then there are wants. Transportation is a need and driving a certain make of car is a want. Not sure if this is the case here but too often we make decisions based on wants that affect our finances. When we're making those types of decisions, we're not good stewards and it's worse when we're using that as an excuse for not tithing. Yes-it's robbing God.

Good stewardship & tithing are just two examples of principles that God teaches in the Bible to set us up for success that as Christians we sometimes ignore yet non-Christians recognize their worth & practice them in their own lives. Financial success books & gurus will tell you it's not about how much you earn, it's about how much you spend. The other thing they will tell you is that tithing as a principle is the secret to leading a more abundant life. We might pay $$ for that type of advice and we already have it right there in the Bible. 

So encourage your friend & pray with him on the subject. It will change his life.


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## NaturallyGraceful (Aug 26, 2009)

I never quite understood the logic of giving out of your gross.
So you give 10% each check & then at tax time you have to pay the government some back. 
To me, you never "had" what those numbers on that check indicated in the first place.
I'm a faithful tither & have no problem giving 10%+ off the top of what's actually in my possession. Whenever I got an income tax check back, I always gave 10% of that too.
I just don't get it I guess.

Also, I remember Paula White teaching that Tithing & First Fruits were two different things.
I didn't really commit everything she said to memory, but is anyone familiar with that?

And I know that some denominations believe that tithing is part of the old Law and that it's not required, but offerings are expected. 
Anybody know about that too?


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## Renaylor (Aug 26, 2009)

Prudent1 said:


> Hi Renaylor!!
> I feel like a broken record sometimes but your situation sounds similar to mine when I was married. My husband totally disapproved of me tithing or giving. He thought I was foolish. We are all learning and growing and still very much human but very much God's children too. I thank Netta1 for starting this discussion b/c we can all learn from each other here. I wanted to address some of your comments in hopes that you can learn something from my own personal experiences. Please do not ever think that I am arrogant or nosey. If we are looking at a pig, I'm gonna call it a pig. I am not going to call it a cow for purpose of being PC. I just don't have that in me. People get hurt when you aren't honest. There is a difference between hurt feelings(we can learn to get over those) and damaged souls (only God can mend). Ok, the word tells us in many places about borrowing being not a good thing for us. We live in a world where no one has patience and as a result credit looks really good- at the time. Our grandparents had less to work with but they bought homes, cars, sent kids to school, ate, etc all w/o having large amounts of debt. They knew how to wait and to save money.There is power and freedom in delayed gratification. They worked so hard to allow us to have the lifestyle we have. Borrowing money from a 401k is almost never a good idea unless someone's life is on the line. There are substantial penalties from the governmment. Plus if your husband loses or tries to leave his job, that money becomes due immediately! When we borrow money from relatives it changes the dynamics of the relationship. Turkey at Thanksgiving just doesn't taste the same you know? It can put all the wrong ppl in your business. Which can then cause stress on the marriage. It is just not good.  Be that as it may, what's done is done. What is the game plan and timeline for paying these debts off (rhetorical)? I see you are trying to do a budget but it is not fair for one person to totally relinquish the budgeting to their spouse. It leaves room for lots of finger pointing. Plus a marriage is a partnership. One of the top 3 reasons for divorce in America are money problems. If one person is better at something than the other that's fine but both parties should have equal say and both parties need to be fully aware of where the money is going and what the plan is for accomplishing shared goals. In other words, you have a marriage issue that is masquerading as a money issue. Communication is vital in a successful marriage.
> Asking for a payraise can be a good idea.   You know your circumstances. If you do decide to ask for a raise, have your stuff together. You need to be able to clearly demonstrate your monetary value and all contributions past as well as how you can make them more money in the future. Powerpoint, flow charts, whatever it takes. Yes things are tough right now for some but, *there is no recession in the kingdom.* You gave God the praise for him letting you buy your home in your post. Can't he do a little something, something in this area too? Don't limit God. He can get you a raise or a new job or as many others have stated he finds ways to get you what you need. You may get a gas card w/ a large balance. You may get gift cards for the grocery store or something. Maybe it will be clothes for the kids. Think and say something good is going to happen to me! Where we tend to mess up is if he provides for us in that way we don't take the money we were going to use for 'x' and pay it towards debts. Instead we spend it. God gives all who ask for it wisdom. Pray and ask him for witty ideas and concepts. Maybe you can save your company $$ and be rewarded for it. Maybe you can start an online business. Have a yard sale. Can you cook, sew, speak, write well? These things can generate extra income too. There is *nothing* too hard for God. I've said all of this to say God is the one who can enlighten and change your husband's mind. There are two great _'prayers for your husbands'_ in this Christian forum. Search for them and begin to cover your DH. Your job is to look to the one who can change this and pray for your husband. Then comes the hard part- waiting. Ask God for grace to wait. Celebrate the little victories along the way. Write things down in a notebook. They will give you hope along the way. Here is a book I highly recommend you read. It is called the _Total Money Make-over_ by Dave Ramsey. If you don't want to buy it check it out at the library. Here is a link to his website www.daveramsey.com. Start listening to his free show online. Also, for ideas on how to generate income check out www.48days.com. It is Dan Miller's website. He has a free podcast too. Both of these men are Christian counselors who have changed my life. Also check out Crown Financial Ministries at www.crown.org. When we take that first step of faith to begin the turn around process God supernaturally intervenes.
> 
> ...




Thank you for your response. The messed up thing about the whole situation is that the 401k was paid off by the sale of my apartment. Because I could not sell it by the close of 2008 and return the money to help him pay it off he got slapped with the taxes. The market was so bad we were lucky to sell at all. We were carrying 2 mortgages and a maintenance for a while but the Lord is good and we made it. As for borrowing money for relatives-I am against it but my husband always goes to this person and feels comfortable with it and pays them back right away. I can't tell him what to do with his relatives but I try to stay clear myself of borrowing from family. The wonderful thing is that in preparation for buying a house we are debt free and our car is paid off. We also carry one credit card balance and this my card for small purchases which I pay off in time each month. I have gotten rid of a lot of expenses, shopped for better cell phone plans and only shop when there are sales and stockpile items, coupon clip, and  not spend what I don't have. I have cable but it is merged with internet/telephone and it keeps us from the movies. Our big problem was eating out and now it is done to once a month. I am familiar with Dave Ramsey and I watch his program all the time, I also am familar with Crown Ministries. In regards to my spouse assisting me with the finances I don't ask him too. When we met his finances were a shambles. Knowing this and watching his pay history I kept him out of it. I keep a working tally of all the bills and have money managment software to keep track.  He has gotten better over the years but he is used to me doing it now so it has become my responsibility. However I do let him see the worksheet with the bills and expenses, but he just throws surprises on me and then expects me to fix it-which by the time he tells me I can't do. I have told him before if you tell me early I can help but if you wait to the last minute it is a no-go.
I am frustrated and I am going to pray hard for my spouse for him to come to an understanding and pray for a way to resolve this which only the Lord can give. I don't want to rob God of anything he has given me my life back when 2 years ago I had hit rock bottom.  He renewed my spirit, moved my family and I to a better life, found us a church home with a awesome pastor and congregation.He deserves all the praise and glory


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## Prudent1 (Aug 27, 2009)

Hang in there Renaylor,
I'm going to tell you what my pastor would say. "Hang in there like a rusty fish hook". I'm praying for you and your situation. Sounds like you are doing the very best you can. Prayer is definitely the key.  Don't forget to search the forum for those daily prayers for the husbands. Many of them address financial wisdom.


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## Prudent1 (Aug 27, 2009)

NaturallyGraceful said:


> Hi NaturallyGraceful!!
> 
> *I never quite understood the logic of giving out of your gross.*
> That's ok. I didn't either. From a logic standpoint tithing period makes no sense to me. I can only tell you that there are measurable, radical differences between how things were for me when I was applying my human logic to the issue of tithing and when I said, "Ok God, this makes no sense to me. I trust you. I'm giving this money to you. Please provide a way for my bills to be paid." I can't fully explain this b/c there are supernatural elements involved beyond our understanding. But, I do know how you feel.
> ...



 Just what was said earlier. The Old law was not negated by the Grace of the NT. The NT completed it. Jesus finshed/ restored all that was unobtainable under the law and now we have an advocate, a comforter, and have been adopted into the family. Offerings always have and always will be acceptable to God. I have gotten away from denominations and religious traditions that cannot be traced to a biblical root. Once again, that stuff is not going to condemn you to hell but I want the absolute truth period.
Mark12:17
17Then Jesus said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." 
      And they were amazed at him.


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## goldielocs (Aug 27, 2009)

Hello all,

Alright, let me preface this response with a little history. I do not tithe and I grew up in a church which did not promote tithing. All members paid yearly dues. Whenever there was someone in need or the church needed repairs, the deacons and members met, assessed the situation and people gave what was needed. Granted, it is a small church.

When I started attending other churches, I didn't even consider tithing because I didn't grow up doing it. It wasn't an issue until I started helping out at church and someone mentioned it. When I said I didn't, I noticed I became a sort of outcast. Sad but true. At that point, I started researching what a tithe was and I've come to the conclusion it isn't nessesary. Here's why. 

My first question was- What is a tithe? This is what I found...
Leviticus 27:30

_A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord. _

Another scripture that I found is in Deuteronomy 12:17. It reads...

_You must be careful not to eat in your own towns the tithe of your grain and new wine and oil, or whatever you have vowed to give, or your freewill offering or special gifts. Instead you are to eat them in the presence of the Lord your God at the place the Lord your God will choose- you, your sons, your daughters, your menservants and maidservants, and the Levites from your towns- you are to rejoice before the Lord your God in everything you put your hand to. Be careful not to neglect the Levites as long as you live in your land._

So from that, I figured the tithe was food. So anyone who was a farmer of any sort had to give a tithe of what was produced. My next question was- Who did they give it to? The last scripture answers that as well as this one...

Numbers 18:21 reads-

_I give to the Levites all the tithes in Isreal as their inheritance in return for the work they do while serving at the Tent of Meeting._

Ok, so the tithes were food given to the tribe of Levi or Levites who were in charge of caring for the temple. Since Levites were not allowed to work or inherit, they needed to be supported. Then it makes sense that the tithe would be food to feed them.

Now, this left me wondering about that scripture in Malachi. After the questions in verses7 & 8, it says...

_"In tithes and offerings. You are under a curse- the whole nation of you because you are robbing me. Bring the whole tithe to the storehouse, that there may be *food in my house...*_

Ok, so here's the reference to food again... How did a tenth- and not the first tenth- of food turn into this rule that applies to a tenth of a person's income? The only reference I found that links tithing and money deals with those who had to travel a long distance and needed to bring money instead of food to the Levites at the temple. Also the curse referred to in this scripture deals with the curses laid out in Deuteronomy 28.  From my understanding, those curses were fulfilled during the inter-testament time. That is the time between the end of the OT and the beginning of the NT. I was told it was about 400 years.  Don't quote me on that. I'm still studying.

When I discuss this with other's, I've always been told that there were 3 types of tithes and they are connected to the OT holy days, but from what I read, the tithes were all food which was to be eaten by Levites and the community during the feasts. They usually try to say that one of the tithes applies to everyone's incomes even if they weren't farmers.  I haven't found that scripture.

Also, I was taught that Christ was our high priest, thus negating the need for "feeding" the Levitical priesthood. I can't find the scripture, but I know it's in the NT. 

Maybe I'm too literal, but I have yet to make the connection that tithing equals money or that it even applies to us. Yes, churches and clergy need financial support. That's to be expected, but at what point did tithing food turn into tithing all income to all churches? I know the early believers collected an offering in Acts and that's completely acceptable, but I've always felt that if a tithe was collected then they would have mentioned that an offering and tithe was collected.  I'm seriously not trying to be sarcastic.  If God considered it important enough in the OT to talk about tithing as much as He did, wouldn't he do the same in the NT when He inspired scripture on giving?

My other issue is the limit of 10%. Everything I have already belongs to God. If someone needs something, I give it if I'm able. No questions asked. To God be the glory. This isn't limited to money. Time, services- whatever. I remember cleaning homes of older members when I was a child or running errands for a new mother. Another time, one of the members of our church needed surgery and didn't have enough to cover the cost. The church had a meeting, split the cost and paid for it at the end of the week. No checking financial records or attendance. Those experiences shape my concept of giving and after seeing the conflict tithing causes with some, I'm greatful I don't have that issue.

For a short while I was stressing myself out about not tithing and I came across this scripture in 2 Corinthians 9:7. It reads...

_Each man should give what he has decided to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, For God loves a cheerful giver._

That's what I do with my giving. I honestly can't tell you what percent of my income it is because I don't calculate it. I also don't fill out those church envelopes. I don't want what I give to be known by anyone.

I'm not trying to change the direction of the thread at all. I tend to analyze things quite a bit, but I just wanted to add to the conversation. Be blessed.


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## momi (Aug 27, 2009)

I have enjoyed this thread...

OT tithes were used prior to the days of taxing - it seems like many of the things tithes were expected to cover are now handled by the government.  The NT example was people gave freely out of their own household so there was no lack.  This method of givng more than likely exceeded the tenth, however it was more than just money...

Sorry for the rant.


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## Netta1 (Aug 27, 2009)

goldielocs said:


> Hello all,
> Alright, let me preface this response with a little history. I do not tithe and I grew up in a church which did not promote tithing. All members paid yearly dues. Whenever there was someone in need or the church needed repairs, the deacons and members met, assessed the situation and people gave what was needed. Granted, it is a small church.




Thank you for your response, I enjoy history. I think when we look at tithing and what it meant we should also look at the biblical history. I too don't understand when the tithe became money (that was to be given to the church). I think that tithing that is done today may be completely different then the tithing that was done in OT. I wonder if the switch up had anything to do with the onset of the Catholic church...

hmmmm interesting..anyone know??? 

BTW

I have enjoyed everyones response...while I don't agree with everything..I understand that we all have our own convictions...

Thanks to all of you ladies for sharing your views/stories/wisdom and knowledge on the subject


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## Renaylor (Aug 27, 2009)

Thanks for everyones response and prayers for me. I will continue to pray on this issue and I know God will find a way for me to make this right. God Bless.


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## Poohbear (Aug 27, 2009)

*@ Prudent1 and JinaRicci,*

The thing is, this guy is NOT living above his means at all. He doesn't have credit card debt or anything. 

His house payment does not exceed 1/4 of his income. He is renting a small home and pays less than $500 a month for it.

Child support takes the bulk of his paychecks.

The car he has is used and old, it still has a car payment, insurance, and gas expenses and he needs it to go transport to and from work and home. This guy used to ride a bus and he used to get rides from people to go places. I guess he could go back to doing that.

And his student loans for school used to be in deferrment but they will not allow him to do that anymore.

I know you can live without cable and even a phone, but come on now... here's the big question: Should one get rid of all that just so you can tithe to a church??? Cut out transportation and communication with other people just so you can tithe to a church???

Prudent1, I see where you said you lived without food... Food is something necessary for us to live. It's not healthy to go without food, and I do not think God would advise us to go without food just so you can give a tithe to a church.



Prudent1 said:


> Hi Poohbear ( I love that name ),
> So in response to the guy friend. He needs to make some lifestyle changes. The necessities of life are Food, Shelter, and Utilities. That said cable as you stated does not qualify. He may need to sell the car and pay cash for a reliable used car. Cars. boats, etc should not exceed 1/2 of your annual income b/c these things drop too much in value and we usually end up upside down on them(owing more than they are worth). That will lower his insurance rate too probably. If he is not over when is the last time he shopped aroung for better insurance rates for his things? It doesn't sound like he was ready for home ownership. Your rent or mortgage payment should not exceed 1/4 of your take home pay. If it does you will struggle. Can he put his loans in forebearance? Can he reapply and change to graduated payments or income contingent payments with a solid plan to turn his finances around? In his current situation he has created a scenario where he is a bona-fide slave to so many entities.


 


JinaRicci said:


> I hear you- I really do & I am sympathetic to his situation. Cutting the cable was mentioned as an example of how he could reduce his monthly expenses. My point was there is room to trim those bills. I can't tell someone how to spend their $ but if I only had $100 to cover food & gas & incidentals for the month there is no way I would be spending more than half of that amount on cable.
> 
> This is a matter of principle. It's about being a good steward & living w/in one's means- Christian or not, tithing or not. There are needs and then there are wants. Transportation is a need and driving a certain make of car is a want. Not sure if this is the case here but too often we make decisions based on wants that affect our finances. When we're making those types of decisions, we're not good stewards and it's worse when we're using that as an excuse for not tithing. Yes-it's robbing God.
> 
> ...


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## Poohbear (Aug 27, 2009)

*goldielocs,*

Beautifully stated response!  These are the same conclusions, thoughts, and questions I have been having after reading these scriptures for myself, except we grew up differently... I was taught to tithe 10% off my gross income where you were taught not to give a tithe. I also have been wondering how food turned into money and why there is a 10% limit per se when everything belongs to God anyway. I often wonder if I'm being too literal as well.



goldielocs said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Alright, let me preface this response with a little history. I do not tithe and I grew up in a church which did not promote tithing. All members paid yearly dues. Whenever there was someone in need or the church needed repairs, the deacons and members met, assessed the situation and people gave what was needed. Granted, it is a small church.
> 
> ...


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## Ije4eva (Aug 27, 2009)

Hi all.  I struggled with tithing for a while because I'm also a little to logical and anlytical for my own good.  I feel that with the help of family and friends that I eventually reached the conclusion that when it comes to spiritual laws (because I definitely believe that tithing is one) my own logic is a waste of time to be honest.  I may not understand exactly how tithing works, but I know its blessed me and kept the devourer away from my "crop" unlike before when I was truly all over the place with my finances.  

Mal 3:10 Bring the whole tithe (1/10th) into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.  11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not cast their fruit," says the LORD Almighty.  12 "Then all the nations will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land," says the LORD Almighty.

As far as whether tithing is supposed to be related to food and/or if its a New Testament concept, these two verses that I discovered helped me with that:

Genesis 28:20-22
20 Then Jacob made a vow, saying, "If God will be with me and will watch over me on this journey I am taking and will give me food to eat and clothes to wear 21 so that I return safely to my father's house, then the LORD will be my God 22 and this stone that I have set up as a pillar will be God's house, and of *all that you give me I will give you a tenth*."

Here Jacob says "all" so IMO that relates to money as well.  This was pre-law.  And for some reason he seemed to be aware of the power of this concept.

Matthew 23:23
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices-- mint, dill and cummin. But *you have neglected the more important matters of the law-- justice, mercy and faithfulness*. *You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.*

Jesus is clear here that He's not suggesting that you don't give a tenth.  But this is where "faith leads to works".  You can't buy your way into the kingdom of God.  If you're heart is not right, it doesn't even matter if you give 100% of your income. Your giving should be a reflection of your heart condition. I honestly feel like I was hesitant to tithe at first because I had a "hoarding" mentality, not knowing that I would heap up blessings in the heavenly realm by opening up my hand freely through this small act showing God that I would not let any "idol" take His place on the throne of my heart.

At the end of the day I think we're all on the same page with the fact that what God truly wants is your heart and that He loves a cheerful giver.  Whether you take 10% of your gross or 10% net or start with 2% and work up to 15% is all legalistic in my opinion.  If you decide to tithe then that's your decision.  Honestly, if the Lord has your heart, then you are already blessed in every way! This has been a great discussion ladies!


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## Poohbear (Aug 27, 2009)

So most of us can all agree that the Bible says to give a tenth of what you have to God....

So how is giving a tithe to "a church" the same as giving a tithe to "God"? 

Is giving a tithe to "God" suppose to be interpreted as giving a tithe to "a church"? 

And is "storehouse" supposed to be interpreted as "church"?

Can someone point to me the scripture in the Bible where it says we must give this 10% of what we have to a church?


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## nucienuce1 (Aug 27, 2009)

This is a great and very necessary thread! Thanks so much.


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## Ije4eva (Aug 27, 2009)

@ Poohbear - I've learnt that when I pay my tithe, I'm not paying my tithe to a church per se because I'm giving it to God for His own purposes. I used to make the mistake of thinking that I could only pay my tithe in my home church, but now I don't feel the same way.

What are God's purposes? In Mal 3:10 it says "Bring the whole tithe (1/10th) into the storehouse, that there may be food in *my house*."

I believe that any bible believing church I go to can be viewed as "God's house". And I know from that verse that the purpose of me paying my tithe is so that "there may be food".  Every church needs to eat and pay bills, so IMO I'm doing my part by giving that sacrifice where that particular group of God's people are concerned for them to be good stewards of it and serve the entire body of Christ (through the different ministries they support etc).

I guess all these things are open to interpretation, but in the end, my tithe goes to God, I write the check to His house, and I always allow the Holy Spirit to direct me through the interpretation of scripture. 

HTH!


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## Prudent1 (Aug 27, 2009)

Hi Poohbear!
And his student loans for school used to be in deferrment but *they will not allow him to do that anymore.*
 Interesting....

I know you can live without cable and even a phone, but come on now... here's the big question: *Should one get rid of all that just so you can tithe to a church??? Cut out transportation and communication with other people just so you can tithe to a church???*
No, the ultimate goal is not to do x, y, or z so you can tithe. He needs to find a way(s) to increase his income or decrease his out go so he can live the way God wants him to live and not be under so many financial burdens. Owing money is stressful and can get you off focus concerning the things of God. I was giving some examples b/c I was examining some common causes for ppl not being able to tithe. I'm just saying, when yo make sacrifices for God (ie lifestyle changes) God supernaturally steps up to the plate. 

Prudent1, *I see where you said you lived without food...* Food is something necessary for us to live. It's not healthy to go without food, and I do not think God would advise us to go without food just so you can give a tithe to a church.[/quote]

We never lived w/o food. What I did was stop eating out and cooked more, clipped coupons, and fixed lunches at home. There were sometimes when it looked like we weren't going to make it and some nights where we ate something that we didn't necessarily have a taste for but God always provided.


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## Netta1 (Aug 27, 2009)

I don't think GOD likes debt either....

Give Ceaser what belongs to him and Give to God what belongs to him...

Mark 12:17


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## naijamerican (Aug 28, 2009)

I know I don't post often in this forum, but I lurk quite a bit and find a lot of the discussions to be spiritually edifying. This is one of them. 

If you all don't mind my saying, I think that tithing is one of those issues where it's easy for Believers to be more concerned about the mechanics of tithing (whether or not it's 10% gross or net income) and not so much the heart behind it. Whenever I think of tithing, I think of the widow in Mark 12:41-44. I don't know what "percentage," per se, she tithed, but the underlying heart behind her actions was that she gave sacrificially. I believe that same inclination is what God seeks from us. I wholeheartedly believe that there is a strong biblical precedent for giving 10% of your income. However (and this might be taking the argument in a slightly different direction) if 10% of your income is not a sacrifice for you then, in view of Mark 12, do you think that your 10% is pleasing to God? Similarly, if, after accounting for all the ways that your money must be stretched (bills, food, shelter, etc.) you give sacrificially and it ends up being 2%, do you really think God is displeased by that? 

I have endeavored to be a more serious student of the Bible this year, and one of the themes that keeps emerging, in both the Old and New Testaments, is the notion of one's heart in his or her actions. What immediately comes to mind is Isaiah 1:11-20 (one of my favorite passages) where God is chastising the Israelites for doing all the right things (their sacrifices, celebrations, etc.) with entirely the wrong heart. I think that this view reconciles the struggles that Poohbear is talking about in terms of people's very real financial realities, as well as the biblical call to give sacrificially to God.

The reason that this issue has some special meaning to me is because when I first started my doctoral program, I was so stressed out with how little money I had that I called my sister in a panic. I told her that I wanted to tithe 10% of my income but that, if I did that, I would literally have $5 at the end of each month. My sister was a bit shocked but shared the story of the widow with me. I trust and believe that at some point in my life, I will give more than 10% - indeed, I want to. But what I do give, I give as a sacrifice, knowing that the money could go elsewhere but instead is dedicated to God.

Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter.


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## Netta1 (Aug 28, 2009)

^^^ thanks for sharing nai^^^ 

Side bar: I am in the doctoral program too.. congrats to you!


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## momi (Aug 28, 2009)

naijamerican said:


> I know I don't post often in this forum, but I lurk quite a bit and find a lot of the discussions to be spiritually edifying. This is one of them.
> 
> If you all don't mind my saying, I think that tithing is one of those issues where it's easy for Believers to be more concerned about the mechanics of tithing (whether or not it's 10% gross or net income) and not so much the heart behind it. Whenever I think of tithing, I think of the widow in Mark 12:41-44. I don't know what "percentage," per se, she tithed, but the underlying heart behind her actions was that she gave sacrificially. I believe that same inclination is what God seeks from us. I wholeheartedly believe that there is a strong biblical precedent for giving 10% of your income. However (and this might be taking the argument in a slightly different direction) if 10% of your income is not a sacrifice for you then, in view of Mark 12, do you think that your 10% is pleasing to God? Similarly, if, after accounting for all the ways that your money must be stretched (bills, food, shelter, etc.) you give sacrificially and it ends up being 2%, do you really think God is displeased by that?
> 
> ...


 
Very true - for some a sacrificial offerring may be 25%, for others it may be considerably less depending on circumstances.  Jesus called the widows offerring a sacrifice because it was for her.  It is a heart issue - and bottom line is if He has our hearts He has our time, talent, and treasure.


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## Poohbear (Aug 28, 2009)

naijamerican said:


> I know I don't post often in this forum, but I lurk quite a bit and find a lot of the discussions to be spiritually edifying. This is one of them.
> 
> If you all don't mind my saying, I think that tithing is one of those issues where it's easy for Believers to be more concerned about the mechanics of tithing (whether or not it's 10% gross or net income) and not so much the heart behind it. Whenever I think of tithing, I think of the widow in Mark 12:41-44. I don't know what "percentage," per se, she tithed, but the underlying heart behind her actions was that she gave sacrificially. I believe that same inclination is what God seeks from us. I wholeheartedly believe that there is a strong biblical precedent for giving 10% of your income. However (and this might be taking the argument in a slightly different direction) if 10% of your income is not a sacrifice for you then, in view of Mark 12, do you think that your 10% is pleasing to God? Similarly, if, after accounting for all the ways that your money must be stretched (bills, food, shelter, etc.) you give sacrificially and it ends up being 2%, do you really think God is displeased by that?
> 
> ...


 Thank you. Giving from the heart is also a point that I wanted to make too with these questions I have been asking, especially when I asked "are you still robbing God if you don't give 10%?" I know it's an Old Testament law but I believe that law of giving 10% was set so that people can have some type of standard to showing how much they love God. When Jesus came to fulfill the law in the New Testament, I feel like as long as you give from the heart, the amount does not matter.

For instance, there have been times I have given less than 10% of my gross income, but I gave it from my heart. Even if I tithe 10% of my gross income from my heart, there are still people out there that will judge. Like my father, who is the pastor of my church, would say stuff like "you need to give over and beyond 10%" and I don't see that anywhere in the Bible. And he would do all this talk about people who don't tithe 10% or give the amount he expects, they aren't fit for the kingdom of God. That just makes me discouraged to give to the church. It makes me feel like I'm not even giving to God when the pastor of the church is making statements like this.  And it's even harder for me since I'm on the finance committee and I see how all the money of the church is being spent. I used to be very adamant about giving 10% of my gross income before my father became a pastor and before I got involved with the finance committee at my church. But now, I question it. I'm only human, I'm not perfect, all I want to do is please God in everything I do, and I surely don't like to be bashed about how much I give if I am giving from the heart.


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## momi (Aug 30, 2009)

Interesting read: Giving - what your pastor wont tell.

http://flanderson.blogspot.com/2009/08/giving-what-your-pastor-wont-to-tell.html

This thread has truly prompted me to study this - the conclusion I have come to is that we are to give according to the New Testament - giving cheerfully and sacrificially out of the abundance God has blessed us with.  Really, the NT model makes a case of giving much more than 10%, but not money alone... in addition to money it could mean food, gas cards for a friend in trouble, babysitting, lawn care for an elderly member - etc.


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## mymane (Aug 30, 2009)

This is a very good discussion. I've always been taught to tithe 10% of your gross income. Regardless of whether you think you'll have enough money or not for bills etc. Give God his. When you're about to give, pray over that money that God will use it to meet your needs. Like someone said it's an act of obedience and faith. Giving over 10% would be considered an offering and with that one could/should ask God to place on their heart how much to give. But 10% of your gross is more so required. If you have no income, then give an offering of your time, talent whatever. That's always a good thing to do regardless. Almost every time at my church when we pray over the tithes and offering, included in the  prayer is a blessing for those who could give and could not give, that EVERYONE'S needs will be met etc. Because there are people who would love to give but may not be able to (no income). No they will not be forbidden from God's kingdom, God looks at their heart and also who gives cheerfully.
   Also, my mother would tell me that God may not bless you monetarily. Your blessing could come in the form of a solution to some thing or some situation you have been struggling with etc. Or for example, He wakes you up every morning in good health which in turn allows you to work, make that money, not incur doctors' bills from being in poor health, be a blesing to others etc. ALL your needs are met not just monetarily but because of that act of faith and obedience.

ETA: I'm all late, lol.


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## Poohbear (Aug 31, 2009)

momi said:


> Interesting read: Giving - what your pastor wont tell.
> 
> http://flanderson.blogspot.com/2009/08/giving-what-your-pastor-wont-to-tell.html
> 
> This thread has truly prompted me to study this - the conclusion I have come to is that we are to give according to the New Testament - giving cheerfully and sacrificially out of the abundance God has blessed us with. Really, the NT model makes a case of giving much more than 10%, but not money alone... in addition to money it could mean food, gas cards for a friend in trouble, babysitting, lawn care for an elderly member - etc.


Thanks for sharing that link. The things mentioned in that blog are things I have been thinking about as well. I agree that we shouldn't be pressured to give. We should give from our heart whether it's less than 10% or more than 10% of our income.

Edited to add: I also thought this blog "Who was Malachi really talking to?" was an interesting read: http://flanderson.blogspot.com/2009/08/tithing-who-was-malachi-really-talking.html

I would like to show my father this articles, but I already know he will speak against them and call them heresy and false doctrine.  

I tried talking to him yesterday about tithing and giving and he just got all mad and frustrated with me.  He talks about tithing everyday, so it's hard not to get into a conversation about it.


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## Laela (Nov 3, 2009)

I'm starting to understand this more. What I've learned about tithing is that it's something I give BACK to God from my blessing. I don't tithe because I want to be blessed.  I am blessed, so I tithe.


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## CoilyFields (Nov 4, 2009)

God never told us to tithe if we could afford to. The whole point is to make a cheerful sacrifice in obedience.

1. The gov't takes their percentage off of your gross-everything you have earned. God should get his tenth from that same pot.

2. In the old testament they focused on cattle and grain etc. as the form of tithes. That is because that is what had value back in the day. They did not use money (coins etc. ) as their main means of exchange and determination of wealth. Money became a dominant source of exchange later in history. So since TODAY the main means of exchange and wealth is in money then that is what we need to tithe from. No other entity accepts time or in-kind services in place of paying a debt so why short-change God?

3. Time, talent etc. should be given to our churches and community in addition to our tithes.  We are called to not only faith but works. 

4. many times we look at the problem from the wrong angle. I know how much I gross and when i make my budget I base it off of what I will have after taxes and tithes.  If there is not enough, then I do all that I can do and then leave the rest to God. Also realizing that I need to make plans to be a better steward so that there will be no shortage. Give from your FIRST and  you will always have tithes to give.

5. It is a heart issue! But God does not accept a "God knows my heart and so its ok to be disobedient to his word". Thats not a pure heart. Becuase if we have a pure heart then we know that God honors his word above even his name and that he expects obedience, faith, and trust from his children. God knows our frailties and will work with you but you have to submit to him and be willing to do as he has commanded in his word.


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## Laela (Nov 4, 2009)

You must be referring to Matthew 23:23, ignoring the "weightier matters":
_
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone._

This, I agree with, when it comes to Tithes and Offerings. What good is our offering/tithes when our hearts aren't right with God. Thank God for Jesus' blood and renewing of spirit through repentance. So, I agree, it is a heart issue and to give cheerfully.

I don't know if you post was in response to mine, but just thought I'd respond to be a bit more clear. When I say "blessing" it's not to equate that a person can 'afford' to tithe. Being blessed is beyond monetary value. I believe we can tithe in more ways than with money... investment of time in Bible Study, worship, helping others, etc. God loves a cheerful giver.





CoilyFields said:


> God never told us to tithe if we could afford to. The whole point is to make a cheerful sacrifice in obedience.
> 
> 1. The gov't takes their percentage off of your gross-everything you have earned. God should get his tenth from that same pot.
> 
> ...


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## Crown (Nov 4, 2009)

Laela said:


> I'm starting to understand this more. What I've learned about tithing is that it's something I give BACK to God from my blessing. I don't tithe because I want to be blessed.  I am blessed, so I tithe.



I totally agree !

I don't tithe because I want to be blessed.  I am blessed *to be a child of God*, so I tithe *(money and/or time and/or talent)*.


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## CoilyFields (Nov 4, 2009)

@Laela

Nope it wasnt in repsonse to yours lol. You know how sometimes you read a whole thread and a lot of the comments start to blend together? Well that was all the stuff that I was responding in my head as I read.


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## goldielocs (Nov 5, 2009)

CoilyFields said:


> God never told us to tithe if we could afford to. The whole point is to make a cheerful sacrifice in obedience.
> 
> 1. The gov't takes their percentage off of your gross-everything you have earned. God should get his tenth from that same pot.
> 
> ...


 
Good Morning CoilyFields,

I must disagree with the bolded.  The purpose of the tithe being food was to feed the Levitical priesthood.  They are descendents of the Tribe of Levi and were not allowed to own or inherit anything.  Therefore, the other tribes were commanded to support the priesthood. The tithe had nothing to do with wealth or sacrificing to give to God. It is about provision for the tribe of Levi.  While I understand that Christians may easily transfer that expectation to the present day clergy, to impose such a "rule" is wrong. If we take on that one, what about kosher eating, wearing 4 tassles, blue fringes or secluding women while they are menstrating? We are called to give freely, cheerfully and without rules. If we take on part of the law while ignoring others, we are guilty of neglecting all of it.

Also, when Christ was speaking in Matthew 23:23 he was talking to a Pharisee who is a Jew and was therefore under the law of tithing.  To relate that to us is inaccurate. I don't claim to have read to whole Bible from cover to cover, but I don't recall tithing being mentioned after the 4 gospels.  I only recall giving cheerfully.

Leala,

I'm with you on this response only in relation to giving and not tithing. 

_I'm starting to understand this more. What I've learned about tithing is that it's something I give BACK to God from my blessing. I don't tithe because I want to be blessed. I am blessed, so I tithe. _

I guess this is another topic where most of us agree on the fundamentals- people and the church should be supported by giving BUT we don't agree on how to do it- giving vs. tithing.


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## CoilyFields (Nov 5, 2009)

> goldielocs said:
> 
> 
> > Good Morning CoilyFields,
> ...


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## Poohbear (Nov 5, 2009)

CoilyFields said:


> God never told us to tithe if we could afford to. The whole point is to make a cheerful sacrifice in obedience.
> 
> 1. The gov't takes their percentage off of your gross-everything you have earned. God should get his tenth from that same pot.
> 
> ...


 
The Bible says "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not lean to your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight. Do not be wise in your own eyes ... Honor the Lord from your wealth and from the first of all your produce; so your barns will be filled with plenty and your vats will overflow with new wine" (Proverbs 3:5-10).

When God said to honor the Lord from your wealth and from the first of al your produce, He was talking about the quality of the animal that was given as an offering. The animal should be one of the best and one that is healthy. And I think that applies today. We should give our best. The word "best" is a relative term. It does not have the same definition for everyone. Giving 10% from your gross income may not be someone's best.  

The Bible also says "This I say, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. EACH ONE MUST DO JUST AS HE HAS PURPOSED IN HIS HEART, NOT GRUDGINGLY OR UNDER COMPULSION, FOR GOD LOVES A CHEERFUL GIVER. And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed" (2 Corinthians 9:6-8).

When people say tithing/giving is an issue of the heart, they are not saying what you said, _"God knows my heart and so its ok to be disobedient to his word."_ No one here is making an excuse to be disobedient just because they may not be able to give 10% of their GROSS income. The Bible clearly states that we should give as we are able to give. I believe God is happy with any amount that is given out of the sincerity and kindness of one's heart.  Just because the preacher or man is unhappy with the amount doesn't mean they are being disobedient to God. 

If you look at it from a realistic point of view, let's say someone is cheerfully giving $200 a month, but based on the 10% of gross income rule, the pastor says they "should" be giving $400 a month... that's ridiculous to deem them as being disobedient. At least they are giving. God simply says to give from a cheerful heart.


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## Laela (Nov 5, 2009)

Hi goldie,


Good points, but I'd think if one tithes today, that Matthew 23:23 still applies.  I'll go even further back than that, to Genesis when God rejected Cain's offerings:

"*. . . And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.  And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 

 "And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof.  And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect.  And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.* " (Genesis 4:2-5, KJV)

This Scripture is where we can understand that God can reject or be displeased with our offerings based on our attitude or position with him because he knows our hearts:

"*So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver.*" (1Corinthians 9:7)

If I don't have it to give, it's one thing. But it's another, if God speaks to my heart to give that $20 in today's offering and I pull out the $1 instead. And then he may not tug at my heart at all, but I'll give it anyway. Same with any practical situation. It's personal conviction. 

@ your bolded, I agree that we don't always have to agree. That's why everyone can't go to the same church...  It's good to see how others apply God's Word and principles to their lives and get different perspectives.  God deals with us individually. 




goldielocs said:


> Good Morning CoilyFields,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Shimmie (Dec 16, 2010)

Prudent1 said:


> Great thread! Hopefully some others will share their understanding of this very important spiritual law as well. Here's what I have learned after time spent studying and praying about this spirtual law.
> 1. It is a spiritual law like sowing and reaping. Appying this law will benefit anyone but none believers will not enjoy the benefits to the full extent.
> 2. The tithe should come off the gross not the net amount. To do so is to give God seconds not 1st dibbs. Imagine cutting a whole pie into pieces, God should get the first slice period. The government does not tax you off of your net. They get their's upfront w/o our permssion. God should get his up front also before you touch anything.
> 3.You can only tithe from what you have. Your tenth may not be my tenth. God knows what he has allowed you to have. Take 10% of that.
> ...



_21----For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also._


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## luthiengirlie (Dec 16, 2010)

goldielocs said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Alright, let me preface this response with a little history. I do not tithe and I grew up in a church which did not promote tithing. All members paid yearly dues. Whenever there was someone in need or the church needed repairs, the deacons and members met, assessed the situation and people gave what was needed. Granted, it is a small church.
> 
> ...


 

You have summed up what I have learned recently..... I don't feel anymore pressure to tithe but I do know that i want to give more.


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## divya (Dec 18, 2010)

Interesting discussion. I've always understood tithe to be giving back to God ten percent of our income. As Coily pointed out, wealth was defined by livestock and grains in the past so ten percent of those were given to the Lord. Things really can get tight sometimes but remember...



> _*Luke 12:22-32*_
> 
> 22And he said unto his disciples, *Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on.
> *
> ...


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## CandiceC (Oct 4, 2011)

I enjoyed reading this thread.


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## Netta1 (Oct 25, 2011)

^^^^^^Yeah me too, it has been a great thread. 

My thanks to those who shared their convictions/thoughts/revelations.


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