# Something that's been bothering me at my church



## chellero (Oct 20, 2007)

Every year around the holidays my church gives out extra food to needy for Thanksgiving and Christmas. Well anyone can come into the soup kitchen and get a meal, but people can sign up to have about two weeks worth of groceries delivered around the holidays.  Well my pastor announced last year that he will not be giving groceries to people who were shacked up because they are living in sin.  This bothers me for a lot of reasons.  First of most of these people have children who shouldn't have to suffer more because their parents are poor and not married.  Secondly who are we to decide that those hungry people are less deserving then drug addicts or lazy people who won't work, or people who are having sex but aren't living with their partners?  I feel as if we are supposed to feed hungry people.  Not just the people whose lifestyles we approve of.


This is really bothering me.  Should I say something to the pastor about it or just let it go?


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## envybeauty (Oct 20, 2007)

chellero said:


> Every year around the holidays my church gives out extra food to needy for Thanksgiving and Christmas. Well anyone can come into the soup kitchen and get a meal, but people can sign up to have about two weeks worth of groceries delivered around the holidays. Well my pastor announced last year that he will not be giving groceries to people who were shacked up because they are living in sin. This bothers me for a lot of reasons. First of most of these people have children who shouldn't have to suffer more because their parents are poor and not married. Secondly who are we to decide that those hungry people are less deserving then drug addicts or lazy people who won't work, or people who are having sex but aren't living with their partners? I feel as if we are supposed to feed hungry people. Not just the people whose lifestyles we approve of.
> 
> 
> This is really bothering me. Should I say something to the pastor about it or just let it go?


 

I have mixed feelings about this. 

Sometimes, I feel like you do -- that everyone deserves the same amount of love and that really everyone sins but some sins are more visible than others.

Then again, I feel that this unconditional love has not changed people. In fact, it encourages them to sin even more because they see no consequences to their actions. 

Tough call.


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## Coffee (Oct 20, 2007)

Anything that separates us from God is sin. As humans we sometimes think there are small sins and big sins.....not true. We are not to judge, lest we be judged. It would bother me too! Not one of us is perfect, there is only one perfect one...Jesus!

Blessings,
Coffee


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## tffy2004 (Oct 20, 2007)

Coffee said:


> Anything that separates us from God is sin. *As humans we sometimes think there are small sins and big sins.....not true. We are not to judge, lest we be judged. It would bother me too!* Not one of us is perfect, there is only one perfect one...Jesus!
> 
> Blessings,
> Coffee



*Coffee*,
I agree with you totally that Sin is Sin none is big or small. Matthew 7:1 "_Do not judge so that you will not be judged._" But verse 2 follows with "_For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you._"

This does not mean that you should not have opinions and render decisions about certain actions. This kind of judging means condemning. We, as human beings, are never in a position to condemn anyone.

*Chellero,*
Since what your pastor has decided to do bothers you, I think you are right in going to him and talking to him about it. John 7:24 says "_Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment._" From what you have posted it seems that your pastor is doing something special at the time of the holidays for those that are homeless and poor and not shaking up. I don't know if he thinks that by excluding the 'shacker-uppers' he is doing the right thing in God's eyes but only God knows his heart. As for the children in those situations God will surely take care of them.

What I think he should do instead is do as he usually does throughout the year and have the open kitchen but set aside time to gather the shacker-uppers and explain to them what the Bible teaches on it, that way they have some knowledge of what the Bible teaches on their situation, but they don't feel left out of special privileges just because of their sinful lifestyle. I think he should treat them all the same.

*2 Thessalonians 3* talks about those who are lazy. There is a version of the bible out there called The Message and it puts the bible in plain text so that no one misunderstands it. Here is what it says about the lazy in The Message:
1 -3One more thing, friends: Pray for us. Pray that the Master's Word will simply take off and race through the country to a ground-swell of response, just as it did among you. And pray that we'll be rescued from these scoundrels who are trying to do us in. I'm finding that not all "believers" are believers. But the Master never lets us down. He'll stick by you and protect you from evil.    4 -5Because of the Master, we have great confidence in you. We know you're doing everything we told you and will continue doing it. May the Master take you by the hand and lead you along the path of God's love and Christ's endurance. 
   6 -9Our orders—backed up by the Master, Jesus—are to refuse to have anything to do with those among you who are lazy and refuse to work the way we taught you. Don't permit them to freeload on the rest. We showed you how to pull your weight when we were with you, so get on with it. We didn't sit around on our hands expecting others to take care of us. In fact, we worked our fingers to the bone, up half the night moonlighting so you wouldn't be burdened with taking care of us. And it wasn't because we didn't have a right to your support; we did. We simply wanted to provide an example of diligence, hoping it would prove contagious. 
   10 -13Don't you remember the rule we had when we lived with you? "If you don't work, you don't eat." And now we're getting reports that a bunch of lazy good-for-nothings are taking advantage of you. This must not be tolerated. We command them to get to work immediately—no excuses, no arguments—and earn their own keep. Friends, don't slack off in doing your duty. 
   14 -15If anyone refuses to obey our clear command written in this letter, don't let him get by with it. Point out such a person and refuse to subsidize his freeloading. Maybe then he'll think twice. *But don't treat him as an enemy. Sit him down and talk about the problem as someone who cares.* 
   16May the Master of Peace himself give you the gift of getting along with each other at all times, in all ways. May the Master be truly among you! 
   17I, Paul, bid you good-bye in my own handwriting. I do this in all my letters, so examine my signature as proof that the letter is genuine. 
   18The incredible grace of our Master, Jesus Christ, be with all of you!


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## MizzBrown (Oct 20, 2007)

Ooooh, that makes me kind of upset too. Because if you judge one, then why not judge them all?? 

What about the single mother of 3 kids out of wedlock. Does she get to eat? The teenager who just stole $50 from his momma and has yet to say so about it? What about the married couples who cheat on their taxes or are cheating on their spouse? Why didn't he include them? And about 95% of the congregation is living subconsciously or purposely in sin so if you want to be PC about it, not too many folks should be eating.

Maybe you send him a letter anonymously or something because some pastors are arrogant and they think their word is God. Did anyone else in the church look at him funny or make comments when he made that announcement? Maybe a lot of people are thinking JUST like you but don't know who/where to voice their concerns about it.

Where's this church located? Shoot, I'LL write the letter. Might show up in his office myself....


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## tffy2004 (Oct 20, 2007)

MizzBrown said:


> Ooooh, that makes me kind of upset too. Because if you judge one, then why not judge them all??
> 
> What about the single mother of 3 kids out of wedlock. Does she get to eat? The teenager who just stole $50 from his momma and has yet to say so about it? What about the married couples who cheat on their taxes or are cheating on their spouse? Why didn't he include them? And about 95% of the congregation is living subconsciously or purposely in sin so if you want to be PC about it, not too many folks should be eating.
> 
> ...


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## Coffee (Oct 20, 2007)

Amen Mizz Brown....rotflmbo!!!!

Blessings,
Coffee


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## barnardbaby027 (Oct 20, 2007)

My issue with it would be that, as a pastor, he should know that God commissions us to give love unconditionally as he gives to us. There is no loophole that says that we should only give love to those who give evidence of change - we are to love everyone. I forget where it is, but there is a passage in the bible that says that it is with unconditional love that God's people differentiate themselves from the rest of the world.

How, then, can we minister to and condemn people in the same breath (or in this case, same action)? What does your pastor feel will be accomplished by withholding food from people who need it? If anything, that pushes people further away from God's love. It tells them what some people already think in the first place - that Christian people are judgemental and condemning. 

The bottom line is, we win souls for Christ with love - not with judgement. Judgement is The Father's job, not ours.


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## PaperClip (Oct 20, 2007)

chellero said:


> Every year around the holidays my church gives out extra food to needy for Thanksgiving and Christmas. Well anyone can come into the soup kitchen and get a meal, but people can sign up to have about two weeks worth of groceries delivered around the holidays. Well my pastor announced last year that he will not be giving groceries to people who were shacked up because they are living in sin. This bothers me for a lot of reasons. First of most of these people have children who shouldn't have to suffer more because their parents are poor and not married. Secondly who are we to decide that those hungry people are less deserving then drug addicts or lazy people who won't work, or people who are having sex but aren't living with their partners? I feel as if we are supposed to feed hungry people. Not just the people whose lifestyles we approve of.
> 
> 
> This is really bothering me. Should I say something to the pastor about it or just let it go?


 
Interesting...
If things happened as you say, that means that the "shackers" had a YEAR to get themselves together, right?

At the same time, hopefully the gospel is going forth in pure form to inspire the "shackers" to reconsider their situation. And actually, this point applies to ALL sins...that the gospel is preached for all to do better in their respective situations.

Ok... That was kind of a joke... but kinda not....

Anyhoo.... maybe this was the pastor's way to encourage the people to consider their actions. Behavior that we want to see gets rewarded. Behavior that we DO NOT want to see gets punished. While our Lord is so gracious and longsuffering, the same thing happens.... When you obey, you get rewarded. When you disobey, you do not receive reward, which to me, equates to punishment.

It's interesting that in the acknowledgement of sin, we humans want to find some way to justify the sin, e.g., single parenthood, children suffering, etc. as a way to discredit the acknowledgement.

Honestly, unless the pastor does personal interviews with everybody in the church, who's gonna know who's shacking? And if a person is gonna be THAT BOLD about their shacking, well maybe they should get called out because the Bible does say "Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear." (1 Timothy 5:20). And once again, this applies to ALL sins.

I think the bottom line is that when the grocery give-away occurs, all who are supposed to receive will receive....


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## Sweet C (Oct 20, 2007)

It depends.

I am not sure how this program is run at your church, what the previous stipulations where, how it is funded etc. to make an informed decision.  However, if you do decide to approach your pastor, it needs to be done prayerfully.


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## KnottyGurl (Oct 21, 2007)

It sounds like church funds are running low this year and he's trying to find a legitimate way to narrow down who receives what. True enough, shackers are sinning, but sin is sin is sin. God never color-coded sin to separate and distinguish 'levels' of sin. They are ALL egregious in His eyes. You can't choose from a list of sins and say "Since this one bothers me (us) the most, this is the one we'll punish." He is going to break down and break up your church with that move. You have to treat ALL sin that way. Those who steal, gossip, curse, etc. are all open to the same type of treatment no matter how 'small' it may look next to 'shacking'. Be stringent with all or none. Hot or cold. No double standards should be allowed. It sends a horrible message to the congregation.

JMHO


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## StrawberryQueen (Oct 21, 2007)

GeechyGurl said:


> It sounds like church funds are running low this year and he's trying to find a legitimate way to narrow down who receives what. True enough, shackers are sinning, but sin is sin is sin. God never color-coded sin to separate and distinguish 'levels' of sin. They are ALL egregious in His eyes. You can't choose from a list of sins and say "Since this one bothers me (us) the most, this is the one we'll punish." He is going to break down and break up your church with that move. You have to treat ALL sin that way. Those who steal, gossip, curse, etc. are all open to the same type of treatment no matter how 'small' it may look next to 'shacking'. Be stringent with all or none. Hot or cold. No double standards should be allowed. It sends a horrible message to the congregation.
> 
> JMHO


Couldn't have said it better myself.


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## Honey6928215 (Oct 21, 2007)

Whether the church funds are running low or not, you are right to feel that way. That statement from the pastor (of all people) wouldn't set too well with me, either. You have people doing God know what in the church and I'm sure they don't get that type of treatment. 

I would seriously talked to him about that. Because if he doesn't take that back, then he better expect that collection to be very low.


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## chicacanella (Oct 22, 2007)

Who knows? Maybe God told him to back off from giving these people food.  Maybe the paqstor was enabling the people to continue living in sin. and yeah, there is a such thing as righteous judging. People always take that scripture in Matthew and think it says don't judge. No, he didn't say that. He is saying don't judge unless you have your stuff together. Like knowingly sinning and not wanting to get rid of the sin;committing the same sin over and over again every single day and not striving to change then turning around and judging someone else like your stuff is together. That is what  Jesus is talking about.

It says in Ezekiel (3) I believe, that if I see my brother going down the wrong path and don't tell him, then when he dies his blood is on my hands. Also, it says that you have the right to judge people in the church and if they don't change after you have brought other brothers and sisters wtih you, then you all have the right to put him out of the church.

I think one of the biggest lies of Satan is to have people walking aorund thinking they can't say anything to anyone else because *oooooh* "don't want to judge anyone." but the bible doesn't say that. And people who've aren't even Christians or have never read a bible before in their whole lives are the ones to sit up and throw this scripture around.


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## PaperClip (Oct 22, 2007)

chicacanella said:


> Who knows? Maybe God told him to back off from giving these people food. Maybe the paqstor was enabling the people to continue living in sin. and yeah, there is a such thing as righteous judging. People always take that scripture in Matthew and think it says don't judge. No, he didn't say that. He is saying don't judge unless you have your stuff together. Like knowingly sinning and not wanting to get rid of the sin;committing the same sin over and over again every single day and not striving to change then turning around and judging someone else like your stuff is together. That is what Jesus is talking about.
> 
> It says in Ezekiel (3) I believe, that if I see my brother going down the wrong path and don't tell him, then when he dies his blood is on my hands. Also, it says that you have the right to judge people in the church and if they don't change after you have brought other brothers and sisters wtih you, then you all have the right to put him out of the church.
> 
> I think one of the biggest lies of Satan is to have people walking aorund thinking they can't say anything to anyone else because *oooooh* "don't want to judge anyone." but the bible doesn't say that. And people who've aren't even Christians or have never read a bible before in their whole lives are the ones to sit up and throw this scripture around.


 
That's real and good talk right there....


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## chicacanella (Oct 22, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> That's real and good talk right there....


 

I am just saying...I hate when people throw this scripture out their mouths without even having read the whole book, let alone that chapter.

For instance, I have a cd by Marvin Winan's and in one of his lyrics, he says, "I've been through enough to say there is no God, to turn cold and ....."

Never the less, the following verses tell that he's been through all of this but he still believes in God.

But what if someone just listened to one clip and heard, " there is no....." Then they would run around saying, "Yeah, I heard it for myself on his cd. He said, "xYZ." That is what alot of people do with the bible, take one scripture and not use it in context to the rest of the bible.

And really, we don't know if God told him not to do it or not. Only way to know is to ask him or pray and ask God.


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## Shimmie (Oct 22, 2007)

Jesus looked upon the multitude and saw that they were hungry. They had been with Him all day, listening to His word and He had great compassion, not judgment, for they had to far to travel home without being nourished. 

With a little boy's lunch of 5 loaves and fishes, He held it up before the Father and blessed it. Then He fed them all until they were full and there was plenty left over for more.

I'm more than sure that there were many among those who were in sin and had no intention of changing. Yet, Jesus fed them all. 

Personally, I cannot bear the thought of leaving a child out of being fed. I just can't, no matter who the parents are or what state of sin they are in. While I don't want to enable the parents, two weeks of food isn't going to make or break me, let alone a ministry. Where in God's name is the mercy? 

During hurricane Katrina, as many of us, I sat and watched the sufferings of so many people. The news was on just as I would arrive home for dinner and I could not find myself able to eat while they suffered. 

Now New Orleans is well-known for voodoo, witchcraft, and many of the darkside activities, let alone the mardegra (sp?). Yet, there was no way that I could turn away from helping these precious lives with what I had. I couldn't judge, neither could I say that I could not contribute to rebuilding the lives of this culture. Who was I to pick and choose who was / wasn't deserving of help? Not all of these precious lives delved in the occult. Most were totally innocent. So only God could make that judgment, not me. 

How do we know why a woman is unmarried or even a man? I don't know; I don't advocate it, but yet it's not always rebellion against what's right. 

And the others whom were chosen to feed, instead by this Pastor, how do we know they aren't in sexual sin as well? To even 'think' about sex is considered sin, for we have already performed the act in our hearts/minds. 

I dunno....  I just can't do it. Not to a baby, a precious child who never asked to come into this world. Collar the mother and the father, but not the babies. That's just too sad for me. Too, sad. 

ETA: *Mizz Brown...* girl, you had me in tears, rolling on the floor with this statement, 

_"...And about 95% of the congregation is living subconsciously or purposely in sin so if you want to be PC about it, not too many folks should be eating." _


Mizz Brown...you are too much and too true...


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## Coffee (Oct 22, 2007)

*People always take that scripture in Matthew and think it says don't judge. No, he didn't say that. He is saying don't judge unless you have your stuff together. a quote by chicacanella* 

I must beg to differ with your opinion of God is saying don't judge unless you have your stuff together. Who of us on this earth is so perfect and has our stuff together that we can judge someone else? As far as I know there was only one perfect person and His name is Jesus. I realize everyone has a differet opinion on what certain scriptures mean.

Blessings,
Coffee


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## StrawberryQueen (Oct 22, 2007)

Shimmie said:


> Jesus looked upon the multitude and saw that they were hungry. They had been with Him all day, listening to His word and He had great compassion, not judgment, for they had to far to travel home without being nourished.
> 
> With a little boy's lunch of 5 loaves and fishes, He held it up before the Father and blessed it. Then He fed them all until they were full and there was plenty left over for more.
> 
> ...


I agree! 


Coffee said:


> *People always take that scripture in Matthew and think it says don't judge. No, he didn't say that. He is saying don't judge unless you have your stuff together. a quote by chicacanella*
> 
> I must beg to differ with your opinion of God is saying don't judge unless you have your stuff together. Who of us on this earth is so perfect and has our stuff together that we can judge someone else? As far as I know there was only one perfect person and His name is Jesus. I realize everyone has a differet opinion on what certain scriptures mean.
> 
> ...


And I agree with Coffee, some need to take their own advice. Here we go again with the "_you don't have the same understand as I, so your'e wrong and misguided_" mess. How very Christian of yall. 

And to think that people should go without food/etc because of how *we* percieve their sin? Good God Almighty, are Christians discussing this or politicians? Never have I heard anything so cold hearted and hypocritical. 

Remind me to start denying you food, shelter, compassion, understanding, etc the next time you go through a hard period in your life-which may or may not be due to your own behavior. 

Oh, but I must have forgotten, some of us are without sin and therefore free to cast the first stone.


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## PaperClip (Oct 23, 2007)

StrawberryQueen said:


> I agree!
> And I agree with Coffee, some need to take their own advice. Here we go again with the "_you don't have the same understand as I, so your'e wrong and misguided_" mess. How very Christian of yall.
> 
> And to think that people should go without food/etc because of how *we* percieve their sin? Good God Almighty, are Christians discussing this or politicians? Never have I heard anything so cold hearted and hypocritical.
> ...


 
Ok... 

I recognize the point concerning the valid interpretation of that scripture. Maybe someone could fairly offer an explanation of that passage for clarity.

With regard to people going without food because of how we "perceive" their sin. Well, what's the Bible for? For ALL of us to use as guidance of how we should conduct ourselves. There are some things that I think every Christian knows is displeasing in the Lord's sight. The big deal about shacking (living together without being married) is the unrealistic notion that a man and a woman, in a romantic relationship, cannot abstain from sexual relations (fornication).

Now say a couple is living together and they are not participating in fornication... Amen...but the Bible also says to avoid the appearance of evil.... In other words, don't let your good be evil spoken of... don't even give people the chance to start any rumors....

With that said, ain't nobody gonna go hungry if this ONE CHURCH doesn't do their food drive. People can be very resourceful. Or I'll make it personal: I'M NOT GONNA GO HUNGRY because one church decided not to feed me 'cause I'm shacking (I'm not shackin', y'all). One thing I've learned about folk: people do what they WANNA DO.... 

Like I said earlier: the pastor said LAST YEAR that he wasn't feeding shackin' folk THIS YEAR, which means they has 12 MONTHS to get it together, ESPECIALLY if it was made clear to them through the word of God via the pastor's teaching that shacking is not pleasing to the Lord. So at what point is the pastor FREE from accountability from those who choose to stay in their mess AFTER THEY HAVE HEARD THE WORD and DID NOT OBEY? Seriously?

One thing that chicacanella said that I think got overlooked is the blood on his hands if he does not tell the people when they are doing wrong/against the word of God (REGARDLESS of what the pastor is or is not doing right, per se). I think the pastor's methods are probably not the best approach, but his motivation may be to 1) get the people to get themselves together and 2) get the blood off of his hands.

And honestly, SQ: if you think this situation is bad, then you got to get out more, hon....


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## StrawberryQueen (Oct 23, 2007)

RelaxerRehab said:


> Ok...
> 
> I recognize the point concerning the valid interpretation of that scripture. Maybe someone could fairly offer an explanation of that passage for clarity.
> 
> ...


And you know this how?  Please tell me how you know this.  How do you know that that can of food won't be someone's last meal.  Or that because two people live together they are automatically having sex.  You know this how?  Please enlighten me w/o making assumptions.

*Honestly*, if the food drive wasn't important...hmmm, I guess they wouldn't be having it?  Maybe you need to be put into a situation of extremes based on how people percieve you.  I won't make it personal, as those type of attacks are discouraged here (and I find it beneath me), but look at yourself and then see how much you'd like it if people chose to reprimand/judge/chastize/help you into "fixing" yourself while at the same time forcing you to do without something you dearly need.   

Why single out shacking folks?  *And a year is supposed to do what*....most likely they've been together loger than that and nothing has come to fruition.  What's a deadline supposed to do.  He should first hold out on the *gluttons*-they don't need anymore food-they're fat already, and then the *liars/thieves*-b/c they can scheme their way into getting more food if they need it.  And what about the* murderers*?  If you're going to deny people b/c of sin then you need to deny EVERYONE b/c everyone is full of sin.   It never fails to amaze me how some Christians like to pick and choose which sins to persecute, like they're pieces of candy.  "_Ooooh, fornication sounds yummy today.  I'll save idolatry for tomorrow after dinner_."  EXCUSE ME? 

And I don't need to "get out more" and see all of the evils of the world, just so I can't displace my focus from the church and the issues it'g going through, and say "_oh well XYZ is happening"_, why focus on what's going on in one little church.  Preacher so and so is acting up over there, and blah blah blah.  Great diversionary tactic...now who was it who talked about such things happening....?

Trust me, I am aware of all of the ills of the world and of man. I don't blindfold or avert my eyes in this type of ridiculousness.  Good try, not working.


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## PaperClip (Oct 23, 2007)

StrawberryQueen said:


> And you know this how? Please tell me how you know this. How do you know that that can of food won't be someone's last meal. Or that because two people live together they are automatically having sex. You know this how? Please enlighten me w/o making assumptions.
> 
> How do I know what? That nobody is gonna go hungry? I say that because this one church is not the only church on the planet, in this country, in that state, in that city, and probably not on that block that has some kind of outreach program, esp. during the holidays. I also say that because I believe in the SOVEREIGNTY of God. I believe that when God wants/needs something to be done, including getting the can of food to that person, it shall be done. There is a willing vessel somewhere.
> 
> ...


 
The point about "great diversionary tactic" is lost on me. I sincerely noted that there is A LOT going on in the church and that you are expressing some strong feelings per your usage of the words "Never have I heard anything so cold hearted and hypocritical." That statement indicated to me that you had not heard anything so cold-hearted and hypocritical before, and I simply shared the point that there are other equally (more and less) intense situations occuring....


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## Farida (Oct 23, 2007)

Show me a place in the bible where Jesus refused to eat with people/heal the sick/feed the hungry because they were sinners. 

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Who knows, maybe his continued love and support for them despite their sins is what will make their hearts change for the better rather than him choosing to ignore them.

In the bible there is a pattern of grace and the law.

God delivers the Israelites from Egypt THEN he gives them the commandments.

As christians we are saved by faith THEN we do good works in praise.

I think the "shackers" would be more receptive to the word if they were being helped first...


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## PaperClip (Oct 23, 2007)

vivmaiko said:


> Show me a place in the bible where Jesus refused to eat with people/heal the sick/feed the hungry because they were sinners.
> 
> You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. TRUE....
> 
> ...


 
You make a point that Jesus met the people's natural needs before/alongside ministering to them, e.g., feeding the masses when He preached a sermon....

Your inquiry to show you a place in the bible where Jesus refused to eat with people/heal the sick/feed the hungry because they were sinners... it made me think of the lady who went to Jesus about her daughter(?) and He told her that He was sent for the lost sheep of Israel but she persisted IN FAITH and He responded.... (Matthew 15).

I think of the woman at the well.... shunned by her community because of her sins/reputation.... Jesus talked to her...she talked to Him...IN FAITH (because as she said, from a cultural perspective, their two different groups did not interact socially).... when He ministered to her, challenged her... she STAYED IN FAITH and listened to Him... and He won her over.... (John 4).

So two instances, two different approaches, instead of looking at Jesus' refusal, look at the mirror image of Jesus' responsiveness to people who interacted with Him IN FAITH.... FAITH MOVES THE LORD.... FAITH OF ANYBODY MOVES THE LORD. FAITH OF THE SINNER MOVES THE LORD. FAITH OF THE "SHACKER" MOVES THE LORD....


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## Dee-Licious (Oct 23, 2007)

> 1 Corinthians 9:19-22
> _19:_ For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
> _20:_ And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
> _21:_ To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
> _22:_ To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.


 
Paul didn't just deal with and help people who were already on that "right" level
He knew it was about saving people's soul not dealing with trying to make them without sin because we will ALL fall short; thus, the need for Jesus to come, die, and rise

Sunday, Rev.B talked about how can you see someone who is hungry and try to minister to and save them without feeding them? Same goes for thirst, homeless, etc...
Once you fulfill a physical need it makes someone more receptive to you being able to fill their spiritual need.


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## Nice & Wavy (Oct 23, 2007)

Well, I for one minister to people on a daily basis.  It's not just a ministry to me, it's my job.  People come from all walks of life.  Our hope is that they would come in one way, and then leave changed but, that is not always the case.  Let me tell you, there is a different life when you are in ministry.  Looking at it from the pews, you have a totally different view, I know...I use to be in the pews mostly too!

People hear the Word of God, we feed them, and they still live the way they want.  Being kind to people by giving them food does not always cause them to change their minds about living a life of sin.  Jesus spoke plainly at times and at times in parables, yet some followed Him and others continued on in their paths of self destruction.  He didn't stop to go get them and bring them back.  He continued on in His ministry...what God had called Him to do.

Faith without works is dead.  When people hear the Word of God, faith does come and should cause us to change.  People CHOOSE to change or CHOOSE not to change, that is their right as a human being.  However, there are consequences when we choose not to do what the Lord wants us to do...period.

The bible speaks explicitly about fornication and that is one form of living in sin.  The bible needs to be taken literally, especially to the person who week end and week out are listening to the Word, yet still chooses to do whatever they want to do.

I think we are only hearing one side of the story here regarding this pastor and his decision to not give food to the "shackers" as they are called in this thread.  I'm sure his/her decision was not on a "whim" and I'm almost sure he/she spoke to them about what their lifestyle has been for the past year and even before that.  Maybe his/her approach (according to the OP) wasn't the way to go, but he/she made his/her decision and he/she should stick to it.  Like I said, there is another story here, not just the one that opened this thread.

Maybe the OP needed to go to the pastor and discuss this with him/her about the concerns she has with his/her decision.  If he/she was my pastor (and yes, I've had to go to pastor/pastors concerning things I thought wasn't right too, and as a pastor, I have to question myself at times) I would go to him/her and discuss this instead of coming FIRST on a forum and talking to others, who are only going to go on what the OP has stated and not have the full story.  How would you feel if that happened to you?

I think the pastor should answer for this to the person/persons who had the problem with it.  I also think that we as people get so caught up in what so and so said, that we forget that there are always two sides to every story.  What our focus should really be on is HIS-STORY!!!

As far as the pastor not feeding the children, I don't recall the OP saying anything about the children...they are innocent in all this.  However, the adults/parents are the ones who aren't living by the rules and laws of God and unfortunately, the children can suffer from it.

Anyway, it's all about loving each other....even in this thread.  We must not only think about the food others need for their bodies, but how we bring the FOOD FOR THOUGHT across in a thread such as this and always be reminded of who we are and WHOSE we are and how we represent Christ.  He should always be the focus in our speech and our lifestyle.

Blessings to ALL!


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## Dee-Licious (Oct 23, 2007)

I was always told that God wouldn't tell you to do something you can't find supported in the Bible.  If it can't be found there it was Him that was telling you that  

I've never read/heard in Sunday School, Sunday sermon, bible class, VBS, or my personal study time where God said help some in some certain sins but don't help those who are in other sins.

I would greatly appreciate if something could give me biblical support to this train of thought.  

TIA


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## Caramela (Oct 23, 2007)

I think this is the type of behavior that turns some people (who are dying to their sins) off and actually pushes them further away from turning away from their sins and coming to obey the gospel.
I understand your church not wanting to condone the behavior, but they could do so with the message they teach and their actions.


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## Shimmie (Oct 23, 2007)

For the life and heart of me, I just can't 'see' it.   I can't not feed a child.  The OP stated that many of these families have children.  I know that's it's wrong to 'live in sin'.  I'd never advocate this.  

Yet, I can't advocate or even find any validation for having the means to feed a family and not do so.

It's food...not paying the rent where they shack, neither paying a cable bill to shack in comfort, not even the electric/gas bill to shack in lights or heat.  It's food.  

Granted, there are times when I'm approached time and again from 'beggars' on the street for money, and I get weary from it.  Most of the time, I don't know if they are going to use the money for drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, or whatever.   And my prayer is always, 'Lord, please don't let me pass them by in error.'   

There are times when the Lord will speak to me saying, "Let it go".   There are times when He doesn't want me to go into my purse, publicly...it makes perfect sense.  But there are times when I just do not care what they do with the money, as long as they know that someone did not pass them by. 

Do I give to all?  No .  I can't.  It's too many and it's not wise to be known as one who gives on the streets.  Yet, I pray other ways to contribute and allow God to lead me otherwise. 

I dunno...this is such a hard call.  My heart is for the children as well as the souls of the parents.   No children should ever go hungry.  Never!  

Something Jesus said..."Suffer (allow) the little children to come unto me, for such is the kingdom of God".   (Mark 10:14)

For years when I was in sin, my children were still loved and cared for by others who knew the Lord.  My babysitter was one.   Each day that I'd go to pick them up after work or my classes (in college), she always had them cleaned and fed.  Her family 'adopted' my children and took them to Church, bought them coats for winter, even dressed them for an Easter Sunday service which I did not attend.   YET....They prayed me in...

Here I am fully saved and sanctified by the Blood of Jesus.  

A Christian family fed my babies and loved me into fellowship with Jesus.

It's only food, yet a pathway to Jesus...


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## Dee-Licious (Oct 23, 2007)

Shimmie said:


> For years when I was in sin, my children were still loved and cared for by others who knew the Lord. My babysitter was one. Each day that I'd go to pick them up after work or my classes (in college), she always had them cleaned and fed. Her family 'adopted' my children and took them to Church, bought them coats for winter, even dressed them for an Easter Sunday service which I did not attend. YET....They prayed me in...
> 
> Here I am fully saved and sanctified by the Blood of Jesus.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you thank you thank you for this post!!!


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## Amber_moon (Oct 23, 2007)

Sounds to me like the church itself is in sin. And if I were you Id find another one to go to. One that made decisions based on biblical standards instead of bigotry and hatred.


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## Shimmie (Oct 23, 2007)

MsDee4 said:


> Thank you thank you thank you for this post!!!


MsDee4, I can only share my personal experience how 'love' brought me in. 

This precious woman who loved me and my children never judged me.  She prayed for me instead.  Her children were adults and they loved my children as their very own.   She enabled me to come home and not have to cook; all I had to do was bathe my babies and put them to bed.  Then I was able to study or finish my chores.

But in sin I was divorced and looking for love from the wrong men.  Yet this family's love God was using to pull me in.  God won my heart.  There were many people God used in my life to bring me in and this woman's love was one of ways He did it.  

I do have to share this and I also know that you will understand. That there are times when God has to use 'tough love' to bring a person to their knees.   That's why I mentioned this situation above as a tough call.   I personally can not choose to not feed a child.   I just can't do it.  

I know that there are some users and abusers of 'kindness' and it's so unfair for those who truly have a heart to change and to do things right.  Maybe this is the reason for this Pastor's decision.   But still how can he not feed a child and yet feed other's in sin?    Sad...situation and a hard position to be in. 

All the more reason we need the guidance of the Holy Spirit, when we have a hard call.  

God bless you...


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## Nice & Wavy (Oct 24, 2007)

Shimmie said:


> MsDee4, I can only share my personal experience how 'love' brought me in.
> 
> This precious woman who loved me and my children never judged me. She prayed for me instead. Her children were adults and they loved my children as their very own. She enabled me to come home and not have to cook; all I had to do was bathe my babies and put them to bed. Then I was able to study or finish my chores.
> 
> ...


 
Hey sis,

I too agree with you and what you are saying here.  How could we not feed the children?  I was thinking about this so hard and decided to ask dh about it.  This is what he shared with me:

He said _*"wow, that is tough.  I'm sure this is a tough decision for the pastor as well.  I'm wondering how the parents feel about this situation.  They are allowing their children to not have necessities because they are too rebellious to realize the needs of their children.  Hmmm....I remember when the Lord had the children of Israel in the wilderness.  He wanted so much for them to depend on Him to supply their needs, and that He did.  They murmured and complained and so forth.  Long story short, they never got to see the Promise Land because that whole generation died because of it.  I guess there are times when, as a pastor, you will have to make a tough call to try and hopefully open the eyes of the people involved."*_

I hate to see anyone go hungry.  This is apart of my ministry is to feed people.  We do it 4 days a week.  Like I said before, I'm sure there are two sides to this story though, and it would be really interesting to see what the pastor have to say about why he did it this way.  I wish the OP would ask him and then come back with a report as too how the convo went.  

Luv ya!


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## Shimmie (Oct 24, 2007)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Hey sis,
> 
> I too agree with you and what you are saying here. How could we not feed the children? I was thinking about this so hard and decided to ask dh about it. This is what he shared with me:
> 
> ...


  Hey Darlin, I hear you and dh on this.  It's really a tough call.  I totally understand about 'not enabling' one to sin.   And we get angry as Christians when we see the same persons, doing the same thing over and over again.  

I used to help out in our Benevolence Ministry, where we would supplement families on public assistance at the end of the month at the time when their food stamps would run out.   We would bag enough groceries and even give pampers, baby formula, etc. to help them until they received their next months allottment.  

Precious Wavy....(you know what I'm about share....) that they were mostly single moms and yes you guessed it, sis...they were also living in sexual sin...some with men, and some with women, they were living lesbian lifestyles or bisexual.   Geeesh!    That was their life as they 'knew' it to be.  

I mean, of course we were not advocating the lifestyles here.  Many, many times I wanted to judge them.  But the mother's of the Church who knew much wisdom, kept me in check and also reminded me that we had made a commitment to feed these families and they depended upon it.   We could not bear the thought of the children going to school hungry, going to bed hungry.  We could not bear the thought of these babies not having diapers or formula when the '"WIC" vouchers ran out. 

During the holidays we'd give them enough for a week or two and a gift card for the local grocery store.  We had clothing drives and coat ministries so that the children had coats/hats/gloves for the winter weather.  I'll never forget what the 'Mothers' would say, "This is how we win them to Jesus.  With love." 

Precious Wavy, it was such a hard call for me.  Because deep down, these persons didn't want to be wrong, but they were just 'lost' and needed to be found.  Granted, there were a lot of 'users' (those who take advantage of the ministries) among them and we could tell who they were; they were easy to spot.   Yet, a lot of these women did receive Jesus and they and their children came to Church and were serious about the Lord. 

Although I don't know where they are now personally, I'm happy that we were able to share Jesus with the food, clothing, and the love that came with it.  It was the right thing to do. 

Precious Wavy, you and I have 'seen' it all, (almost all, that is) and I know you know that it's not easy.  It's just not.  And it never will be.  

But guess what?  It's wasn't easy for Jesus either.  "How long must I tarry with you?" is one of His most prominent questions.  Yet He chose to remain on that cross and bear the weight of all of our sins of all of us.   

No amount of food can match that.  None.  What are we actually trying to prove?  Nothing at all.   For the love we withhold is nothing compared to the love which has been so freely given unto us by Him alone.   So what if we feed them...let us do so in love for the love we've been given when we were yet still in sin.  We are not their 'god' to judge them for their actions.  

I yet still have to remember the mess that I was doing when God still yet, blessed me and kept me and fed me and fed and clothed my babies.  And He's still giving 'grace' to me in spite of what I should be doing and I'm not.... Oh Lord have mercy upon us who judge and think we have it all together when we do not.   

I'd in the mind that I really do not care what 'this Pastor' is thinking,  But he is not God to distribute neither withhold blessings or punishment to the lives of these people.  He's wrong and has no right to stand in such arrogance.  He's wrong.   

Now if he were announcing that he was not contributing to a drug addict's drug habit, or alcohol, etc., I'd agree.   But to withhold food from the hungry because he's so righteous?  It's wrong.  And it's not a good example of a caring Sheperd.   I dunno, it's just not right, the more I think and pray about it.  It's just not right.  I mean it's food for God's sake!  He's not proving anything except that he trying to rule their lives to his standards.  You can't force a person to love Jesus.  You love them to the Lord, instead. 

Okay, Shimmie's steam vent is closed....

I love you pretty lady....  Thank you for keeping me in check.  Cause you know how I do...


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## Nice & Wavy (Oct 24, 2007)

Shimmie said:


> Hey Darlin, I hear you and dh on this. It's really a tough call. I totally understand about 'not enabling' one to sin. And we get angry as Christians when we see the same persons, doing the same thing over and over again.
> 
> I used to help out in our Benevolence Ministry, where we would supplement families on public assistance at the end of the month at the time when their food stamps would run out. We would bag enough groceries and even give pampers, baby formula, etc. to help them until they received their next months allottment.
> 
> ...


 
You are so right and thank you for keeping me in check too.  I'm still wondering what actually happened here....always two sides to every story and yes, I'm sticking with that one for sure.  As with Juanita, so with him....!


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## Shimmie (Oct 24, 2007)

Nice & Wavy said:


> You are so right and thank you for keeping me in check too. I'm still wondering what actually happened here....always two sides to every story and yes, I'm sticking with that one for sure. As with *Juanita*, so with him....!


Hey...that's our girl.  I pray for all things well with her.  See you in PM land.


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## Nice & Wavy (Oct 24, 2007)

Shimmie said:


> Hey...that's our girl. I pray for all things well with her. See you in PM land.


She sure is..., okie dokie!


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## Dee-Licious (Oct 24, 2007)

Shimmie said:


> I'd in the mind that I really do not care what 'this Pastor' is thinking, But he is not God to distribute neither withhold blessings or punishment to the lives of these people. He's wrong and has no right to stand in such arrogance. He's wrong.
> 
> Now if he were announcing that he was not contributing to a drug addict's drug habit, or alcohol, etc., I'd agree. But to withhold food from the hungry because he's so righteous? It's wrong. And it's not a good example of a caring Sheperd. I dunno, it's just not right, the more I think and pray about it. It's just not right. I mean it's food for God's sake! He's not proving anything except that he trying to rule their lives to his standards. You can't force a person to love Jesus. You love them to the Lord, instead.


 
That sums it up.


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## golden bronze (Oct 25, 2007)

I have one simple question.

What would Jesus do?

Jesus fed and clothed those who came to him. Many of them were murderers, tax collectors, adulterers, liars, and the sick. If God sends you someone to assist, that is a gift and a responsibility. In fact the only way not to see a hungry person walking into the Lord's house as anything less than a gift from God is if they were not "sent" from God, but from the advesary-- and you will usually recognize those types. 

Jesus' ministry often involved 1.) meeting people where they were at, 2.) ministering to their physical need and 3.) tackling their spiritual need. 

It is a little bit hard to spiritually advise someone who is in need by ignoring that need. In fact, the bible cautions against it. 

James reminds us "_Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder._



*Matthew 25:35-40 says: *Then *the righteous *will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
“The king will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

I cannot pass judgement on the word from the Lord your Pastor may have heard. God may indeed have told him to save the food for those obeying his word. 

I can say that if you want to know what is right, look at the example of Jesus and ask yourself what is the fruit of this action?

Is what is being done more likely to make hearts receptive to Christ, or to reject Christ?

Remember every act, even rebuking, must be done in love. Anything not done in love, even if the act is right, is not right before God. 

Who knows who God may send through the doors of the church to hear a word from the Lord? By denying them food, are we showing them the love of God? Are we showing them the face of God? God is holy, this is true. But he is also merciful, and kind, and longsuffering and attentive to the needs of the heart. God looks beyond the fault and sees the need.


Pray about how God would have you to respond. Maybe you will be the voice of compassion. Maybe God just wants you to see this, so you can be charged a new assignment to assist those in this situation. I don't know the question, but I do know that is God is the answer.


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## chellero (Dec 8, 2008)

Update:  I just wanted to let you all know that we gave food out to *everyone *who needed it this year!  
:woohoo::woohoo2:


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## Shimmie (Dec 8, 2008)

chellero said:


> Update: I just wanted to let you all know that we gave food out to *everyone *who needed it this year!
> :woohoo::woohoo2:


 
:woohoo2:   I'm so  happy Chellero.   

As I was re-reading my posts in this thread, I realized that I was ........ 'pissed'   

And that's just putting it mildly.  

Blessings to your Church and your Pastor.


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## HeChangedMyName (Dec 9, 2008)

Your pastor's stance doesn't sound very Christ-like to me.  I would try to talk to him about it.  We can't "see" everyone's sins and if I recall, Jesus traversed, interacted and helped all sorts of people.  Rather than penalizing these shacking up people, this could be an opportunity to literally get into these people's homes and minister to them the importance of a Godly marriage and how shacking up is sinful.  Maybe they don't know that it is a sin.  That sounds crazy, but I have found that it is amazing what people define as "sin" and how many people do things that they are completely unaware of as being sinful behavior.


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## Shimmie (Dec 9, 2008)

SuperNova said:


> Your pastor's stance doesn't sound very Christ-like to me. I would try to talk to him about it. We can't "see" everyone's sins and if I recall, Jesus traversed, interacted and helped all sorts of people. Rather than penalizing these shacking up people, this could be an opportunity to literally get into these people's homes and minister to them the importance of a Godly marriage and how shacking up is sinful. Maybe they don't know that it is a sin. That sounds crazy, but
> 
> *I have found that it is amazing what people define as "sin" and how many people do things that they are completely unaware of as being sinful behavior*.


 
True... 

They see things happening all around them by others and think it's the normal way of living.   

Excellent  answer.   Very compassionate.


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## firecracker (Dec 9, 2008)

chellero said:


> Every year around the holidays my church gives out extra food to needy for Thanksgiving and Christmas. Well anyone can come into the soup kitchen and get a meal, but people can sign up to have about two weeks worth of groceries delivered around the holidays. Well my pastor announced last year that he will not be giving groceries to people who were shacked up because they are living in sin. This bothers me for a lot of reasons. First of most of these people have children who shouldn't have to suffer more because their parents are poor and not married. Secondly who are we to decide that those hungry people are less deserving then drug addicts or lazy people who won't work, or people who are having sex but aren't living with their partners? I feel as if we are supposed to feed hungry people. Not just the people whose lifestyles we approve of.
> 
> 
> This is really bothering me. Should I say something to the pastor about it or just let it go?


 Wow this is an old post but your Pastor sho is something.  Kids hungry weather the parents shacking, lost a job, smoking crack etc.  I wonder what God is gon say to him when he tries to enter the Pearly gates?  We ain't letting you in Son cuz your soooooo self righteous.  I'm not for shacking but if there are hungry kids in the house my goodness feed em and preach the gospel of all sins afterwards!  Like he isn't a sinner himself!


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