# Homosexuality and Old Testament v. New Testament Law?



## gone_fishing (May 16, 2008)

Okay, I'm having a problem with something.

It is often said that we are under the "new testament law" and that the laws in the Old Testament no longer apply.

For instance in Old Testament law...I was not allowed to eat shrimp  or wear clothes made of mixed fabrics, etc.

There are a lot of laws in leviticus that the Israelites were called to follows.

Today if a christian wants to eat a pork chop they'll remind people that although the old testament prohibited it, we are no longer under the old testament law.

I've heard:



> The key to understanding this issue is knowing that the Old Testament law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians. Some of the laws were to make the Israelites know how to obey and please God (the Ten Commandments for example), some of them were to show them how to worship God (the sacrificial system), some of them were to simply make the Israelites different from other nations (the food and clothing rules). So my understsanding is that none of the Old Testament law applies to us today. When Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23-25; Ephesians 2:15).
> 
> In place of the Old Testament law, we are under the law of Christ (Galatians 6:2) which is to, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment.
> 
> ...



NOW here is my dilemma.

If you believe that we are not under old testament law and that old testament law was abolished: 

How do I explain to homosexuals WHY being homosexual is STILL wrong since the command to refrain from it was discusssed in Leviticus which is an old testament book and we are under new testament law?

I need a direct answer as direct as possible, please.


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

I believe that the belief that the Old Testament is invalid is actually false doctrine.That is what many, if not the majority of Christians believe. I understand that the believe is usually sincere. However, only sacrificial and ceremonial laws were nailed to the cross. That's why the Ten Commandments - the moral law - are valid, and can be found repeated in the New Testament.  The same goes for instruction against homosexuality etc.


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## gone_fishing (May 16, 2008)

divya said:


> I believe that the Old Testament is invalid is actually false doctrine.That is what many, if not the majority of Christians believe. I understand that the believe is usually sincere. However, only *sacrificial and ceremonial laws* were nailed to the cross. That's why the Ten Commandments - the moral law - are valid, and can be found repeated in the New Testament. The same goes for instruction against homosexuality etc.


 
Thank you! That's what I needed to know. But where explicitly does it say that?


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

adequate said:


> Thank you! That's what I needed to know. But where explicitly does it say that?



All of the Ten Commandments are repeated/shown in the New Testament and Jesus followed them and taught them.  That's the explicit instruction in the New Testament.  However, because Jesus is our sacrificial Lamb, we now need no other. 

Matthew 5:17-19 (King James Version) *Think not that I am come to destroy the law,* or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

See what Jesus told this man about his own salvation: 

Matthew 19:16-21
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life,* keep the commandments.* He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.


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## gone_fishing (May 16, 2008)

divya said:


> All of the Ten Commandments are repeated/shown in the New Testament and Jesus followed them and taught them. That's the explicit instruction in the New Testament. However, because Jesus is our sacrificial Lamb, we now need no other.
> 
> Matthew 5:17-19 (King James Version) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


 
Just reminding you that one of them (re: the sabbath) was not repeated.

Thank you for this scripture! You are right on!


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## DonnaDi31Proverbi (May 16, 2008)

adequate said:


> Thank you! That's what I needed to know. But where explicitly does it say that?


 
Reading Romans helped me to gain some understanding about how we are no longer under the law presented in the OT, but now are justified through Jesus Christ.


*Romans 2:17-29*
17Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God; 18if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."[b] 

 25Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. 26If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the[c] written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.  28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.


*Romans 3:21-31*
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. 
 27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

*Roman 6:15-23*
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. 
 19I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[b] Christ Jesus our Lord.

*Romans 7:7-25*
7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."[b] 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 

 11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. 
 14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.  21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! 
      So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

So basically, sin is still sin (including homosexuality), whether OT or NT,  its just that we don't need to use the law to justify our sins, instead we are justified through Jesus Christ and we avoid sin by allowing God to give us a "renewed mind" and revived spirit!!

HTH


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

adequate said:


> Just reminding you that one of them (re: the sabbath) was not repeated.
> 
> Thank you for this scripture! You are right on!



It actually was, because Jesus kept it. We are to follow His example. He said to keep His Commandments.  Does that mean keep all minus one? Believe it or not Christians kept the Sabbath unless paganism entered the church via Catholicism. That is why people keep Sunday today. 

Mark 2:27 states: And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath.

The Bible also says that the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath. We have no right to change it.


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

DonnaDi31Proverbi said:


> Reading Romans helped me to gain some understanding about how we are no longer under the law presented in the OT, but now are justified through Jesus Christ.
> 
> 
> *Romans 2:17-29*
> ...



Romans shows that the law *cannot save*, only Jesus can. However, we are still to love God and keep his Commandments.


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## SweetlyBlessed (May 16, 2008)

divya said:


> I believe that the Old Testament is invalid is actually false doctrine.That is what many, if not the majority of Christians believe. I understand that the believe is usually sincere. However, only sacrificial and ceremonial laws were nailed to the cross. That's why the Ten Commandments - the moral law - are valid, and can be found repeated in the New Testament. The same goes for instruction against homosexuality etc.


 

That was right on!


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## dicapr (May 16, 2008)

adequate said:


> Just reminding you that one of them (re: the sabbath) was not repeated.
> 
> Thank you for this scripture! You are right on!


 

He also did not repeate the 1-3 commandment, I do not think we can ignore those, so why do christians feel the need to ignore the 4th?


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## gone_fishing (May 16, 2008)

divya said:


> It actually was, because Jesus kept it. We are to follow His example. He said to keep His Commandments. Does that mean keep all minus one? Believe it or not Christians kept the Sabbath unless paganism entered the church via Catholicism. That is why people keep Sunday today.
> 
> Mark 2:27 states: And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath.
> 
> The Bible also says that the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath. We have no right to change it.


 
*You are right. It just was not all listed in the same place:*


*Commandment 1 *"You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Mat 4:10). "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and the great commandment" (Mat 22:37). "And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. This is the first commandment" (Mk 12:30). "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Luke 4:8). 

*Commandment 2* "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Mat 4:10). "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Luke 4:8). "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:24). "But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam...to eat things sacrificed to idols" (Rev 2:14). "Nevertheless, I have a few things against you, because you allow...My servants to...eat things sacrificed to idols" (Rev 2:20). 

*Commandment 3 *"Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men" (Mat 12:31). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts,...blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). 

*Commandment 4 *"What man is there among you who has one sheep, and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not lay hold of it and lift it out? Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? *Therefore, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath*" (Mat 12:11-12). "And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath" (Mat 24:20); there would be no reason to pray this if the Sabbath was not going to be in existence. "And He said to them, 'The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath'" (Mk 2:27); this verse tells all who will see which day is the Lord's Day. "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue" (Mk 6:2). "And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read" (Luke 4:16). "Then He went down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and was teaching them on the Sabbaths" (Luke 4:31). "The Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath...Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy?" (Luke 6:5,9). "But the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath...The Lord then answered him and said, 'Hypocrite...So ought not this woman...be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?'" (Luke (13:14-16). "'Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?'...And they could not answer Him regarding these things" (Luke 14:3,6). "are you angry with Me because I made a man completely well on the Sabbath?" (John 7:23).

*Commandment 5 *"For God commanded saying, 'Honor your father and your mother' and 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death'" (Mat 15:4). "Honor your father and your mother" (Mat 19:19). "Honor your father and your mother" (Mk 7:10). "Honor your father and your mother" (Mk 10:19). "You know the commandments:...Honor your father and your mother" (Luke 18:20). 

*Commandment 6 *"You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder', and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment. But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment" (Mat 5:21-22). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "You shall not murder" (Mat 19:18). "...murders...All these evil things come from within and defile a man" (Mk 7:21,23). "Do not murder" (Mk 10:19). "You know the commandments:...Do not murder" (Luke 18:20). 

*Commandment 7 *"You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery'. But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Mat 5:27-28). "But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery" (Mat 5:32). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts...adulteries, fornications...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery, and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery" (Mat 19:9). "You shall not commit adultery" (Mat 19:18). "...adulteries, fornications...All these evil things come from within and defile a man" (Mk 7:21,23). "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her. And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery" (Mk 10:11-12). "Do not commit adultery" (Mk 10:19). "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery" (Luke 16:18). "You know the commandments: Do not commit adultery" (Luke 18:20). "'Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery'...And Jesus said to her...'sin no more'" (John 8:4,11). "Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation" (Rev 2:22). 

*Commandment 8* "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts...thefts...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "You shall not steal" (Mat 19:18). "It is written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer', but you have made it a den of thieves" (Mat 21:13). "...thefts...All these evil things come from within and defile a man" (Mk 7:22-23). "Do not steal" (Mk 10:19). "You know the commandments:... Do not steal" (Luke 18:20). 

*Commandment 9 *"Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord. But I say to you, do not swear at all" (Mat 5:33-34). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts...false witness...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "You shall not bear false witness" (Mat 19:18). "Do not bear false witness" (Mk 10:19). "You know the commandments:...Do not bear false witness" (Luke 18:20). "And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars" (Rev 2:2).

*Commandment 10 *"Do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on" (Mat 6:25). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "...covetousness...All these evil things come from within and defile a man" (Mk 7:22-23).
"*I have kept My Father's commandments*" (John 15:10). 

So it is clear that *Jesus taught everyone of the ten commandments* and that he also kept them.


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## gone_fishing (May 16, 2008)

dicapr said:


> He also did not repeate the 1-3 commandment, I do not think we can ignore those, so why do christians feel the need to ignore the 4th?


 
Actually, I see now that He did.


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## Aviah (May 16, 2008)

adequate said:


> Okay, I'm having a problem with something.
> 
> It is often said that we are under the "new testament law" and that the laws in the Old Testament no longer apply.
> 
> ...


 
Hey Adequate, 
Funny I just got an email today for GotQuestions.org on this matter (well somewhat anyway) I'll just copy and paste the relative parts:

“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). There is a tendency to declare homosexuality as the worst of all sins. While it is undeniable, biblically speaking, that homosexuality is immoral and unnatural (Romans 1:26-27), in no sense does the Bible describe homosexuality as an unforgivable sin. Nor does the Bible teach that homosexuality is a sin Christians will never struggle against.

Just another thing to take into consideration, only some versions say homosexuals, I think some use the term "abusers of themselves"
HTH!


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## Crackers Phinn (May 16, 2008)

divya said:


> *I believe that the Old Testament is invalid is actually false doctrine.That is what many, if not the majority of Christians believe.* I understand that the believe is usually sincere. However, only sacrificial and ceremonial laws were nailed to the cross. That's why the Ten Commandments - the moral law - are valid, and can be found repeated in the New Testament.  The same goes for instruction against homosexuality etc.



Honest question: 

So you reject the stories of the Creation, original sin, Job, Noahs Ark, etc. or is it just the laws of the OT that are rejected?


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

JCoily said:


> Honest question:
> 
> So you reject the stories of the Creation, original sin, Job, Noahs Ark, etc. or is it just the laws of the OT that are rejected?



Sorry I typed that wrong...LOL! I just corrected it. It should read....



> I believe that the *BELIEF THAT* Old Testament is invalid is actually false doctrine.That is what many, if not the majority of Christians believe. I understand that the believe is usually sincere. However, only sacrificial and ceremonial laws were nailed to the cross. That's why the Ten Commandments - the moral law - are valid, and can be found repeated in the New Testament. The same goes for instruction against homosexuality etc.


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

adequate said:


> *You are right. It just was not all listed in the same place:*
> 
> 
> *Commandment 1 *"You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Mat 4:10). "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and the great commandment" (Mat 22:37). "And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. This is the first commandment" (Mk 12:30). "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Luke 4:8).
> ...




Yes! It's all there! 

I need to get into deeper study of these things though.  I should know those verses offhand!  Thank you!


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## Ms.Honey (May 16, 2008)

divya said:


> It actually was, because Jesus kept it. We are to follow His example. He said to keep His Commandments. Does that mean keep all minus one? Believe it or not Christians kept the Sabbath unless paganism entered the church via Catholicism. That is why people keep Sunday today.
> 
> Mark 2:27 states: And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath.
> 
> The Bible also says that the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath. We have no right to change it.


 
The N.T. begins with Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. He was an O.T. saint. He lived the law and fulfilled it. The N.T. which is an actually testament not a bible separation begins at the end of the gospel stories at that point and at the book of Acts. 
 We hold worship services on Sundays because He rose on the first day of the week Sunday morning. In the O.T. they were instructed to keep the sabbath holy. We as N.T. saints have been instructed to keep everyday Holy and choose not our own work because He is the Lord of the Sabbath every day. He's fulfilled it.


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> The N.T. begins with Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. He was an O.T. saint. He lived the law and fulfilled it. The N.T. which is an actually testament not a bible separation begins at the end of the gospel stories at that point and at the book of Acts.
> We hold worship services on Sundays because He rose on the first day of the week Sunday morning. In the O.T. they were instructed to keep the sabbath holy. We as N.T. saints have been instructed to keep everyday Holy and choose not our own work because He is the Lord of the Sabbath every day. He's fulfilled it.



Sorry, but I'll have to disagree with that. His fulfillment of the law is not its destruction - Christ stated that himself.  



> Matthew 5:17-19 (King James Version) Think *not* that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am *not* come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.



Worship services are held on Sunday because of the agreement between Constantine and the Catholic church that ended up permeated the majority of Christianity.  Higher ups in the Catholic church have acknowledged their responsibility for the change. There were other Christians who were not affected that continued to keep the Sabbath holy, and many others who have come to the understanding as well. God is the same yesterday, today and always. Many people sincerely worship on Sunday and God will acknowledge that. But those of us who know what we ought to do must do it...


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

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## divya (May 16, 2008)

*Statements out the Catholic church...*

“The abandonment of the Sabbath and the adoption of Sunday as the Lord’s Day, are the result of an interplay of Christian, Jewish and pagan religious factor’s”. Vincenzo Monachino, S.J., Chairman of the Church History Department, Pontifical Gregorian University, 29th June, 1977.


"You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we [Catholics] never sanctify."-JAMES CARDINAL GIBBONS, "The Faith of Our Fathers," page 111.


"There is but one church on the face of the earth which has the power, or claims power, to make laws binding on the con�*science, binding before God, binding under penalty of hell-fire. For instance, the institution of Sunday. What right has any other church to keep this day? You answer by virtue of the third commandment [the Papacy changed the fourth commandment and called it the third], which says, 'Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.' But Sunday is not the Sabbath. Any school�*boy knows that Sunday is the first day of the week. I have re�*peatedly offered one thousand dollars to anyone who will prove by the Bible alone that Sunday is the day we are bound to keep, and no one has called for the money. It was the holy Catholic Church that changed the day of rest from Saturday, the seventh day, to Sunday, the first day of the week."-T. ENRIGHT, C.S.S.R., in a lecture delivered in 1893.


"I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to anyone who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says, 'Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.' The Catholic Church says: 'No. By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.' And lo! the entire civilized world bows down in a reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church.' - T. ENRIGHT, C.S.S.R., in a lecture at Hartford, Kan�*sas, Feb. 18, 1884.


"Reason and sense demand the acceptance of one or the other of these alternatives: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of Saturday or Catholicity and the keeping holy of Sunday. Com�*promise is impossible' "-JAMES CARDINAL GIBBONS, Catholic Mirror, Dec. 23, 1983.


    "Some theologians have held that God likewise directly determined the Sunday as the day of worship in the New Law, that He Himself has explicitly substituted the Sunday for the Sabbath. But this theory is now entirely abandoned. It is now commonly held that God simply gave His Church the power to set aside whatever day or days she would deem suitable as Holy Days. The Church chose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in the course of time added other days as holy days." John Laux, A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies (1 936), vol. 1, P. 51.



"For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the[Roman Catholic] church outside the Bible. Catholic Virginian Oct. 3, 1947, p. 9, art. "To Tell You the Truth."


*
I personally would like to read all the sources for myself but for now, as there are so many in addition to other evidence, I do believe them. *


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## Ms.Honey (May 16, 2008)

divya said:


> Sorry, but I'll have to disagree with that. His fulfillment of the law is not its destruction - Christ stated that himself.
> 
> 
> 
> Worship services are held on Sunday because of the agreement between Constantine and the Catholic church that ended up permeated the majority of Christianity. Higher ups in the Catholic church have acknowledged their responsibility for the change. There were other Christians who were not affected that continued to keep the Sabbath holy, and many others who have come to the understanding as well. God is the same yesterday, today and always. Many people sincerely worship on Sunday and God will acknowledge that. But those of us who know what we ought to do must do it...


 Who said anything about destruction? He sealed the N.T. in His blood. We have a NEW testament. I don't just worship Him on Sunday's. I worship Him everyday. And if you read in Acts I believe they said that they broke bread daily and went from house to house. No one is gonna get brownie points for worshipping on Saturday, Sunday or any other day.
 Christianity didn't start with Constantine or the Catholic church. I don't know why we always want to point out what the catholics did. The reason they did it is irrelevant. In most Protestant churches we hold worship services on Sunday's because Jesus rose from the dead on Sunday morning. Why the Catholics do it is their business.


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> Who said anything about destruction? He sealed the N.T. in His blood. We have a NEW testament. I don't just worship Him on Sunday's. I worship Him everyday. And if you read in Acts I believe they said that they broke bread daily and went from house to house. No one is gonna get brownie points for worshipping on Saturday, Sunday or any other day.
> Christianity didn't start with Constantine or the Catholic church. I don't know why we always want to point out what the catholics did. The reason they did it is irrelevant. In most Protestant churches we hold worship services on Sunday's because Jesus rose from the dead on Sunday morning. Why the Catholics do it is their business.



The Bible says it.  Christ said in the Bible that His law is not to be destroyed. We should worship every day! But we cannot keep every day holy as Lord did bless, sanctify and hollow the Sabbath day. The Sabbath was made for us. It's not about brownie points.  It's about loving God and keeping His commandments. Christ is instructed us to do so, live it and thus, so should we. In fact, even when Christ died, He RESTED on the Sabbath and arose on Sunday. When you think about it, that in itself is a testament to the importance of the Sabbath. It's wonderful that we have an entire God-given day to commune with the Lord. 

Sunday worship, not Christianity, started with Constantine and the Catholic church.  I understand why most Protestant churches keep Sunday today but that is not based on Biblical instruction.


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## Ms.Honey (May 16, 2008)

divya said:


> The Bible says it. Christ said in the Bible that His law is not to be destroyed. We should worship every day! But we cannot keep every day holy as Lord did bless, sanctify and hollow the Sabbath day. The Sabbath was made for us. It's not about brownie points. It's about loving God and keeping His commandments. Christ is instructed us to do so, live it and thus, so should we. In fact, even when Christ died, He RESTED on the Sabbath and arose on Sunday. When you think about it, that in itself is a testament to the importance of the Sabbath. It's wonderful that we have an entire God-given day to commune with the Lord.
> 
> Sunday worship, not Christianity, started with Constantine and the Catholic church. I understand why most Protestant churches keep Sunday today but that is not based on Biblical instruction.


 
 What makes you believe that NO ONE worshipped on Sunday's until the Catholics and Constantine said it was ok to do so. 
 Jesus did NOT rest on the sabbath. He took captivity captive and preached the gospel to the saints in Abraham's Bossom/paradise, that's work not rest. He also talked about keeping the Sabbath in the gospels Matthew12:1-14. The Jews were accusing Him of not keeping the sabbath holy. The sabbath of the O.T. was about far more than church services being held on that day. Do you keep the sabbath they way the Lord instructed in the O.T. completely? You may wan to read *Acts 15* also. The Lord spoke of gving us another rest in the O.T. and we recieved that with Jesus' sacrifice. He that keepeth the law must abide by the WHOLE law. I thank the Father that I'm saved by His Grace through His Son Jesus not through the law which no man can keep.


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## envybeauty (May 16, 2008)

Just asking:

Wasn't he a Jew and don't Jews take their sabbath from Friday night to Saturday night?  So did he consider Sunday the sabbath?  I mean ...if he went to temple (Jewish temple), then wouldn't he have gone Friday/Saturday? 

Anyone know?



MSHONEY said:


> What makes you believe that NO ONE worshipped on Sunday's until the Catholics and Constantine said it was ok to do so.
> Jesus did NOT rest on the sabbath. He took captivity captive and preached the gospel to the saints in Abraham's Bossom/paradise, that's work not rest. He also talked about keeping the Sabbath in the gospels Matthew12:1-14. The Jews were accusing Him of not keeping the sabbath holy. The sabbath of the O.T. was about far more than church services being held on that day. Do you keep the sabbath they way the Lord instructed in the O.T. completely? You may wan to read *Acts 15* also. The Lord spoke of gving us another rest in the O.T. and we recieved that with Jesus' sacrifice. He that keepeth the law must abide by the WHOLE law. I thank the Father that I'm saved by His Grace through His Son Jesus not through the law which no man can keep.


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> What makes you believe that NO ONE worshipped on Sunday's until the Catholics and Constantine said it was ok to do so.
> Jesus did NOT rest on the sabbath. He took captivity captive and preached the gospel to the saints in Abraham's Bossom/paradise, that's work not rest. He also talked about keeping the Sabbath in the gospels Matthew12:1-14. The Jews were accusing Him of not keeping the sabbath holy. The sabbath of the O.T. was about far more than church services being held on that day. Do you keep the sabbath they way the Lord instructed in the O.T. completely? You may wan to read *Acts 15* also. The Lord spoke of gving us another rest in the O.T. and we recieved that with Jesus' sacrifice. He that keepeth the law must abide by the WHOLE law. I thank the Father that I'm saved by His Grace through His Son Jesus not through the law which no man can keep.



Doing good for the furtherance of the gospel constitutes keeping the Sabbath day holy or rather "resting" on the Sabbath day, according the Jesus.  I believe the verses have been previously posted. Christ surely did keep the Sabbath day holy and that anyone would argue otherwise is saddening. Yes, I do my best to keep the Sabbath as the Bible teaches we should. Of course, we are saved by grace of Christ, and Christ says in the Bible that if you love Him, then keep His commandments. That is evidence of our love for Him.

It never says that because Christ is the way to salvation, that is now it is fine to lie, cheat, steal, break the Sabbath, covet or murder. The sacrificial and ceremonial laws were nailed to the cross, but the moral law of God and His counsel remains. Why is it that so many understand all the other commandments and encourage each other to keep it, save one? That simply isn't what they Bible has taught us to do. 

Oh yes, as for when Sunday worship began, it's been recorded. Of course, one can choose not to believe it, but that still does not make Sunday worship Biblical.


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

nvybeauty said:


> Just asking:
> 
> *Wasn't he a Jew and don't Jews take their sabbath from Friday night to Saturday night?*  So did he consider Sunday the sabbath?  I mean ...if he went to temple (Jewish temple), then wouldn't he have gone Friday/Saturday?
> 
> Anyone know?



Yes, that is the Sabbath - from Friday night to Saturday night. So Sunday was not and is not the Sabbath.  Christ kept the Sabbath (Friday/Saturday), in life and "in death."


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## Ms.Honey (May 16, 2008)

divya said:


> Doing good for the furtherance of the gospel constitutes keeping the Sabbath day holy or rather "resting" on the Sabbath day, according the Jesus. *How is picking corn and eating it on the sabbath an act of good and the furtherance of the gospel. He is the LORD(ruler) of the sabbath. Isn't worshipping God even on a Sunday doing good and furthering the gospel? *
> I believe the verses have been previously posted. Christ surely did keep the Sabbath day holy and that anyone would argue otherwise is saddening. Yes, I do my best to keep the Sabbath as the Bible teaches we should. Of course, we are saved by grace of Christ, and Christ says in the Bible that if you love Him, then keep His commandments. That is evidence of our love for Him.
> 
> It never says that because Christ is the way to salvation, that is now it is fine to lie, cheat, steal, break the Sabbath, covet or murder. The sacrificial and ceremonial laws were nailed to the cross, but the moral law of God and His counsel remains. Why is it that so many understand all the other commandments and encourage each other to keep it, save one? That simply isn't what they Bible has taught us to do.
> ...


 *So it has to be recorded to be possible? And because it hasn't been FOUND to have been recorded before that it's impossible that folks worshipped on Sundays before the Catholics did? That doesn't even make sense. *


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## Ms.Honey (May 16, 2008)

Sorry forgot to post the scripture Hebrews 4.


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> *How is picking corn and eating it on the sabbath an act of good and the furtherance of the gospel. He is the LORD(ruler) of the sabbath. Isn't worshipping God even on a Sunday doing good and furthering the gospel?*
> 
> *God said he would give us ANOTHER rest (sabbath) and that rest is the salvation of Christ.*
> 
> *So it has to be recorded to be possible? And because it hasn't been FOUND to have been recorded before that it's impossible that folks worshipped on Sundays before the Catholics did? That doesn't even make sense. *



Again, the issue is not _worshiping_ God on Sunday or any other day.  We should! However, we cannot keep every day Holy because the Lord blessed, sanctified and hollowed the Sabbath day.

He did not do that for Sunday or any other day, and did not change the Sabbath (the 7th day). 

Even if some people did digress from the truth and worship on Sunday previous to the occasion between Catholics and Constantine, it does not not may Sunday keeping as opposed to Sabbath keeping Biblical.  It simply is not.


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## Ms.Honey (May 16, 2008)

nvybeauty said:


> Just asking:
> 
> Wasn't he a Jew and don't Jews take their sabbath from Friday night to Saturday night? So did he consider Sunday the sabbath? I mean ...if he went to temple (Jewish temple), then wouldn't he have gone Friday/Saturday?
> 
> Anyone know?


 Yes, Jesus was an O.T. saint and lived by the law He fulfilled it.
Sunday is not the sabbath Saturday is. I don't recall the law saying that you had to attend worship service on the sabbath.


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> Sorry forgot to post the scripture Hebrews 4.



Which again is evidence that the Sabbath remains for us to keep...


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## Ms.Honey (May 16, 2008)

divya said:


> Again, the issue is not _worshiping_ God on Sunday or any other day. We should! However, we cannot keep every day Holy because the Lord blessed, sanctified and hollowed the Sabbath day. *Isn't that what we were talking about, having worship service on Saturday not Sunday to keep the sabbath holy?*
> 
> He did not do that for Sunday or any other day, and did not change the Sabbath (*the 7th day).* Lev.23:23-25 And the Lord spake unto Moses saying, speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord. There are many sabbaths that the Lord established and expected to be kept holy by the Jews not just the 7th day. I believe that there are also sabbath years. I ask you again, do you keep the sabbath as the Lord instructed in the O.T.?
> 
> Even if some people did digress from the truth and worship on Sunday previous to the occasion between Catholics and Constantine, it does not not may Sunday keeping as opposed to Sabbath keeping Biblical. It simply is not. *I thought the issue wasn't about worshipping Him on Sunday or any other day. Where did He say that the only acceptable day we are to WORSHIP Him on Saturday?*


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## alexstin (May 16, 2008)

divya said:


> Which again is evidence that the Sabbath remains for us to keep...



But how and when should we keep it? According to Jewish law Jesus broke the Sabbath by working. As you said the Sabbath is made for man not the other way around. Why did Jesus work on the Sabbath and give the reason that He works because our Father is always working? Other than  creation when did God rest on the 7th day? I'd like to check it out.


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> Isn't that what we were talking about, having worship service on Saturday not Sunday to keep the sabbath holy?
> 
> (the 7th day). Lev.23:23-25 And the Lord spake unto Moses saying, speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord. There are many sabbaths that the Lord established and expected to be kept holy by the Jews not just the 7th day. I believe that there are also sabbath years. I ask you again, do you keep the sabbath as the Lord instructed in the O.T.?
> 
> ...



Yes, we are discussing keeping the Sabbath holy.  Certainly, you do understand what is being stated when you use keeping the Sabbath/worshipping interchangeably and I respond? Either way, keeping the Sabbath holy does not only include the service. 

I believe that we keep the 7th day Sabbath, but that the sacrificial and ceremonial laws were nailed to the cross. Please see my earlier posts. That would include the ceremonies that you list above.


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## Ms.Honey (May 16, 2008)

divya said:


> Which again is evidence that the Sabbath remains for us to keep...


No it doesn't. It talks about a new rest not the O.T. rest . Hebrews 4:8-16. We are to come boldly to the throne of grace that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in the time of need at any time not just the O.T. sabbaths. That is THE rest that Jesus gave us. The Jesus in the 8th verse is speaking of Joshua not the Lord. For if Jesus (Joshua) has given tem rest, then he would not afterward have spoken of another day.


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

alexstin said:


> But how and when should we keep it? According to Jewish law Jesus broke the Sabbath by working. As you said the Sabbath is made for man not the other way around. Why did Jesus work on the Sabbath and give the reason that He works because our Father is always working? Other than  creation when did God rest on the 7th day? I'd like to check it out.



Jesus had an issue with how Jews treated the Sabbath.  Thus, He showed us how to keep the Sabbath, and He also rest on the Sabbath in death. He arose again on Sunday. Jesus gave us the proper example of God's law. If you look at the verses the adequate included, Jesus stated that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. He corrected the popular Jewish thinking on the Sabbath.


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## Ms.Honey (May 16, 2008)

divya said:


> Yes, we are discussing keeping the Sabbath holy. Certainly, you do understand what is being stated when you use keeping the Sabbath/worshipping interchangeably and I respond? Either way, keeping the Sabbath holy does not only include the service. *How do you keep the sabbath holy and what does it have to do with going to church on Saturday? Where does it say that it includes service.? It is a tradition to hold worship service on Saturday just as it is a tradition to hold worship services on Sundays. It has NOTHING to do with keeping the sabbath holy.*
> 
> I believe that we keep the 7th day Sabbath, but that the sacrificial and ceremonial laws were nailed to the cross. Please see my earlier posts. That would include the ceremonies that you list above.
> *Those are still sabbaths. He didn't say keep some of them not all of them. Where does it say that? Why not keep the 7th month sabbath? If you're going to perform the works of the law to be right with God you have to  keep the  WHOLE law. *


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> No it doesn't. It talks about a new rest not the O.T. rest . Hebrews 4:8-16. We are to come boldly to the throne of grace that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in the time of need at any time not just the O.T. sabbaths. That is THE rest that Jesus gave us. The Jesus in the 8th verse is speaking of Joshua not the Lord. For if Jesus (Joshua) has given tem rest, then he would not afterward have spoken of another day.



Actually it is...

The very next verse states...

Hebrews 4:9 -11 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. 


Here is a decent explanation...



> If something remains, it must have existed before. And if something existed before, and it remains, then it is the same thing that it was before. This should make clear, distinct sense to almost anyone, to anyone who appreciates clear, distinct sense.
> 
> There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. Hebrews 4:9
> 
> ...



Gotta leave for a bit but I'll be back...


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## alexstin (May 16, 2008)

divya said:


> Actually it is...
> 
> The very next verse states...
> 
> ...



God rested from creation, no? Again, Christ said the Father is always working,  So what sort of rest are we laboring to enter into since the Father is working as we speak.

The author also states that the Sabbath is a shadow of things to come...our eternal rest in Heaven. Now, I have a couple of issues with that. First, when God put us here, an eternity in Heaven was not on His mind. We came out of Him. Why not keep us there if that's where He wanted us to be for all eternity? 

Second, In Isaiah 45:18 , God said that He created the earth to be inhabited. Is there ever a time in scripture where God recanted this statement? If not, then spending all eternity in Heaven means that God contradicts His word about making earth to be inhabited.

Third, God is a God of restoration. When Adam and Eve sinned they didn't lose heaven so how would God restore us to Heaven. Restoration is only achieved when something is put back where it was. If I knock a book off a shelf and then pick it up and place it on a coffee table I  have not restored that book to its proper place.


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## Ms.Honey (May 16, 2008)

divya said:


> Actually it is...
> 
> The very next verse states...
> 
> Hebrews 4:9 -11 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.


 
And that day was not the O.T. sabbath. Verse 8, another means different not the same right. You can't give the same thing and say you've given another. Definition: Another 1. *one more: *an additional









need another person to help








May I have another?

2. *one that is different: *somebody or something that is separate or different








We need another accountant because ours is moving.








This one is too dark; I would prefer another.

3. *some other: *some other one, or any other one








at one time or another

This scripture states that we are to cease from our own works (establishing our own righteousness) and enter into the rest of Jesus not the other rest of the O.T. or going to church on Saturday. There is no where in the O.T. that worship services were to be held on Saturday exclusively. It's a tradition.


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## DonnaDi31Proverbi (May 16, 2008)

I worship on Sunday, but I just wanted to present this, to get understanding for myself and maybe others who are follwing the thread.  According to this excerpt, the Sabbath was changed _*in the Bible from Saturday to Sunday*_. Could someone explain



> No one will argue that the resurrection didn’t cause some dramatic changes in the lives of Jesus’ followers. It’s undeniable.
> 
> One of those changes, which might not appear significant to many, is how the disciples changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday. The Sabbath day was Saturday, the day God rested after six days of creation. Honoring the Sabbath was a part of Mosaic law, the fourth of the Ten Commandments: “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God” (Exodus 20:8–10). And yet Sunday, rather than Saturday, became the Sabbath for the early church.
> 
> ...


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

DonnaDi31Proverbi said:


> I worship on Sunday, but I just wanted to present this, to get understanding for myself and maybe others who are follwing the thread.  According to this excerpt, the Sabbath was changed _*in the Bible from Saturday to Sunday*_. Could someone explain



That verse says nothing about changing the Sabbath.


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

alexstin said:


> God rested from creation, no? Again, Christ said the Father is always working,  So what sort of rest are we laboring to enter into since the Father is working as we speak.
> 
> The author also states that the Sabbath is a shadow of things to come...our eternal rest in Heaven. Now, I have a couple of issues with that. First, when God put us here, an eternity in Heaven was not on His mind. We came out of Him. Why not keep us there if that's where He wanted us to be for all eternity?
> 
> ...



Is there a time in the Bible where God recanted keeping the Sabbath holy? Every commandment was restated in the New Testament. Anyway, there is much longer explanation...

Here it is.  Far too much to post but hope it is helpful...
http://adventist-defense-league.blogspot.com/2008/01/hebrew-3-and-4-does-today-replace.html


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## Ms.Honey (May 16, 2008)

DonnaDi31Proverbi said:


> I worship on Sunday, but I just wanted to present this, to get understanding for myself and maybe others who are follwing the thread. According to this excerpt, the Sabbath was changed _*in the Bible from Saturday to Sunday*_. Could someone explain


 I agree with the article you posted.The word sabbath does not mean the seventh day it means the rest. The Lord established *A* sabbath on the seventh day.There are sabbath days that occured on days other than the seventh day of te week. We say Saturday is THE sabbath out of habit. The sabbath can be any day of rest for the people of God. In the O.T. there were sabbaths to be held on multiple days Lev.23:39 But more importantly we should rest from our own works(sabbath) and labor by denouncing our sins and rest(sabbath) in Jesus the Lord of the sabbath.


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## alexstin (May 16, 2008)

divya said:


> Is there a time in the Bible where God recanted keeping the Sabbath holy? Every commandment was restated in the New Testament. Anyway, there is much longer explanation...
> 
> Here it is.  Far too much to post but hope it is helpful...
> http://adventist-defense-league.blogspot.com/2008/01/hebrew-3-and-4-does-today-replace.html



I have no issue with keeping the sabbath holy. I just don't agree that you must keep the sabbath on Saturday.


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> And that day was not the O.T. sabbath. Verse 8, another means different not the same right. You can't give the same thing and say you've given another. Definition: Another 1. *one more: *an additional
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is long but helpful...

http://adventist-defense-league.blog...y-replace.html 

Again, no one said that people cannot come together and worship on another day. However, the truth is that the majority of Christians have abandoned keeping the Sabbath day for Sunday observance of various sorts. the Ten Commandments still stand and were not nailed to the cross.  We cannot chose to follow some and not the others.


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

alexstin said:


> I have no issue with keeping the sabbath holy. I just don't agree that you must keep the sabbath on Saturday.



Interesting...why?


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## DonnaDi31Proverbi (May 16, 2008)

divya said:


> That verse says nothing about changing the Sabbath.


 
I'm no Bible scholar, but if you are talking about keeping the Sabbath and worshipping on the same day, then Acts 20:7 talks about coming together to break bread on the first day of the week, and in 1 Corinthians 16:2 they took up offering on the first day of the week, wouldn't those together equate to a worship service being held on Sunday?


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> I agree with the article you posted.The word sabbath does not mean the seventh day it means the rest. The Lord established *A* sabbath on the seventh day.There are sabbath days that occured on days other than the seventh day of te week. We say Saturday is THE sabbath out of habit. The sabbath can be any day of rest for the people of God. In the O.T. there were sabbaths to be held on multiple days Lev.23:39 But more importantly we should rest from our own works(sabbath) and labor by denouncing our sins and rest(sabbath) in Jesus the Lord of the sabbath.



The Bible said that the 7th Day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. The 7th day happens to be Saturday in this day in age.  If people want to argue which day the Sabbath actually falls on, then that it fine. But what I know is that, Saturday is the 7th day of the week and so I will follow it.


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

DonnaDi31Proverbi said:


> I'm no Bible scholar, but if you are talking about keeping the Sabbath and worshipping on the same day, then Acts 20:7 talks about coming together to break bread on the first day of the week, and in 1 Corinthians 16:2 they took up offering on the first day of the week, wouldn't those together equate to a worship service being held on Sunday?



As stated earlier, no one said that people cannot come together and worship on another day. However, the truth is that the majority of Christians have abandoned keeping the Sabbath day for Sunday observance of various sorts. the Ten Commandments still stand and were not nailed to the cross. We cannot chose to follow some and not the others.


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## alexstin (May 16, 2008)

divya said:


> Interesting...why?




Because the sabbath was made for man and the rest for believers is a state where you're no longer striving out of your flesh you've taken Jesus' yoke.


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## DonnaDi31Proverbi (May 16, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> I agree with the article you posted.The word sabbath does not mean the seventh day it means the rest. The Lord established *A* sabbath on the seventh day.There are sabbath days that occured on days other than the seventh day of te week. We say Saturday is THE sabbath out of habit. The sabbath can be any day of rest for the people of God. In the O.T. there were sabbaths to be held on multiple days Lev.23:39 But more importantly we should rest from our own works(sabbath) and labor by denouncing our sins and rest(sabbath) in Jesus the Lord of the sabbath.


 
That has always been my question.  Was there an actual day of the week established, or can any day of rest in honor of the Lord out of the 7 be designated as a Sabbath?  I believe you answered that for me.


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

alexstin said:


> Because the sabbath was made for man and the rest for believers is a state where you're no longer striving out of your flesh you've taken Jesus' yoke.



And what does that mean to you? 

Does that change the fact that if we love God, we should keep his Commandments?


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## Ms.Honey (May 16, 2008)

divya said:


> This is long but helpful...
> 
> http://adventist-defense-league.blog...y-replace.html
> 
> Again, no one said that people cannot come together and worship on another day. However, the truth is that the majority of Christians have abandoned keeping the Sabbath day for Sunday observance of various sorts. the Ten Commandments still stand and were not nailed to the cross. We cannot chose to follow some and not the others.


 
 Didn't you say some Christians chose to leave the truth and  worship on Sunday? To me that statement sounds as if it's something we're not suppose to do.  Again where does it say that we are suppose to hold worship service on Saturdays in the bible? And what does having service on Saturday have to do with keeping the sabbath holy? In order for it to be a requirement to keep the sabbath holy the Lord has to say have service on Saturday to keep the sabbath holy.


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

DonnaDi31Proverbi said:


> That has always been my question.  Was there an actual day of the week established, or can any day of rest in honor of the Lord out of the 7 be designated as a Sabbath?  I believe you answered that for me.



Why is 2-3 verses out of the Ten Commandment's problematic for many people but the other's aren't?


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## Ms.Honey (May 16, 2008)

divya said:


> As stated earlier, no one said that people cannot come together and worship on another day. However, the truth is that the majority of Christians have abandoned keeping the Sabbath day for Sunday observance of various sorts. the Ten Commandments still stand and were not nailed to the cross. We cannot chose to follow some and not the others.


The commandment says keep the sabbath holy it doesn't say go to church on Saturday.


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> Didn't you say some Christians chose to leave the truth and  worship on Sunday? To me that statement sounds as if it's something we're not suppose to do.  Again where does it say that we are suppose to hold worship service on Saturdays in the bible? And what does having service on Saturday have to do with keeping the sabbath holy? In order for it to be a requirement to keep the sabbath holy the Lord has to say have service on Saturday to keep the sabbath holy.



Leave the truth as in, uphold one in place of the other. I believe I have clarified that but for some reason, you continue to harp on when you can hold a service.  Why? Also do you disagree that coming together on the Sabbath - worship and fellowship - was not part of what the Lord wanted for us?


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> The commandment says keep the sabbath holy it doesn't say go to church on Saturday.



It says the 7th day is the Sabbath.  Do you disagree that the 7th day happens to fall on Saturday?


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## alexstin (May 16, 2008)

divya said:


> And what does that mean to you?
> 
> *Does that change the fact that if we love God, we should keep his Commandments?[*/QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

alexstin said:


> divya said:
> 
> 
> > And what does that mean to you?
> ...


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## Ms.Honey (May 16, 2008)

DonnaDi31Proverbi said:


> That has always been my question. Was there an actual day of the week established, or can any day of rest in honor of the Lord out of the 7 be designated as a Sabbath? I believe you answered that for me.


 Nope, no set day for church service. Some folks in Acts gathered daily. Keeping the sabbath holy does not mean go to *church* on Saturday. We out of tradition attend church service on Sunday because Jesus rose on Sunday morning. It has nothing to do with the O.T. sabbath. Many churches have worship service several days a week.


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> Nope, no set day for church service. Some folks in Acts gathered daily. Keeping the sabbath holy does not mean go to *church* on Saturday. We out of tradition attend church service on Sunday because Jesus rose on Sunday morning. It has nothing to do with the O.T. sabbath. Many churches have worship service several days a week.



Honestly, I am not about the semantics.  I am about Christ's example. There is nothing wrong with going to church multiple times a week.  However, Christ recognized the 7th day as Sabbath, went to synagogue on Sabbath _and_ kept the Sabbath holy.  

I understand you tradition, but I don't not put it above the Bible. Today people have claimed that the Sabbath is changed to Sunday, and thus that there is no need to keep God's Sabbath holy. For that reason, they attend church on Sunday as a replacement for the Sabbath. This is the crux of the discussion. It is not Biblical. 

The O.T. and N.T. debate is one that will go on until the second coming, but I believe the Bible is clear on what was nailed to the cross and what continues today and forever. 

Take care.


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## Ms.Honey (May 16, 2008)

divya said:


> It says the 7th day is the Sabbath. Do you disagree that the 7th day happens to fall on Saturday?


 
*One* of the sabbaths falls on a Saturday. He established MANY sabbaths. Where does it say IN THE BIBLE that we are to have church services on Saturday in order to keep the sabbath holy. I just want the verse. What does the Lord say IN THE BIBLE that we are to do to keep the sabbath holy. Is having worship service on Saturday one of the requirements to keep the sabbath holy stated in the Word of God? I'm not trying to be funny or anything. It may say it, I don't know but I do not recall the scripture that says that we are to go to church on a specific day in accordance to keeping the sabbath holy.


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## Highly Favored8 (May 16, 2008)

divya said:


> All of the Ten Commandments are repeated/shown in the New Testament and Jesus followed them and taught them. That's the explicit instruction in the New Testament. However, because Jesus is our sacrificial Lamb, we now need no other.
> 
> Matthew 5:17-19 (King James Version) *Think not that I am come to destroy the law,* or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
> 
> ...


 

What you just stated my brother 2 weeks ago was telling me the same thing! This is so true. We just had a discusson on what you just said! God is so Good thank you for bringing this statement to light!


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## Ms.Honey (May 16, 2008)

divya said:


> Honestly, I am not about the semantics. I am about Christ's example. There is nothing wrong with going to church multiple times a week. However, Christ recognized the 7th day as Sabbath, went to synagogue on Sabbath _and_ kept the Sabbath holy.
> 
> I understand you tradition, but I don't not put it above the Bible. Today people have claimed that the Sabbath is changed to Sunday, and thus that there is no need to keep God's Sabbath holy. For that reason, they attend church on Sunday as a replacement for the Sabbath. This is the crux of the discussion. It is not Biblical.
> 
> ...


It's not about semantics it's about biblical facts. Jesus went to the synagoue on Saturday and preached because it was the tradition of the Jews, not a commandment of God to worship on Saturday. It would not have made sense for Him to go on a day when they weren't there. Jesus waited until Lazarus had been dead for three days before He raised him from the dead because it was a belief of the Jews that it took three days for the soul to leave the body. THEY believed that, the Lord never said that. If He had raised Him right away some would have said the he wasn't really dead. 
 We are not required to carry on the traditions of the Jews. Not going to church on Saturday does not defile the sabbath because the Lord never said go to church on Saturday the sabbath.


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> It's not about semantics it's about biblical facts. Jesus went to the synagoue on Saturday and preached because it was the tradition of the Jews, not a commandment of God to worship on Saturday. It would not have made sense for Him to go on a day when they weren't there. Jesus waited until Lazarus had been dead for three days before He raised him from the dead because it was a belief of the Jews that it took three days for the soul to leave the body. THEY believed that, the Lord never said that. If He had raised Him right away some would have said the he wasn't really dead.
> We are not required to carry on the traditions of the Jews. Not going to church on Saturday does not defile the sabbath because the Lord never said go to church on Saturday the sabbath.



So you do not believe that the fact that the Jews went to the synagogue as part of their Sabbath observance had anything to do with the God given Ten Commandments?


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## Ms.Honey (May 16, 2008)

divya said:


> So you do not believe that the fact that the Jews went to the synagogue as part of their Sabbath observance had anything to do with the God given Ten Commandments?


Where is the scripture that says that He required them to attend service on Saturdays to keep the sabbath holy? Where do it say that? What they chose to do and what He told them to do are to different things.  Where does it say that He said that that is part of keeping the sabbath holy?


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## alexstin (May 16, 2008)

What do sabbath keepers take these verses to mean:

 Col. 2:16,17 

     Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--
   	things which are a {mere} shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.


Rm 14:5-6
 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day {alike.} Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
   	He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> *One* of the sabbaths falls on a Saturday. He established MANY sabbaths. Where does it say IN THE BIBLE that we are to have church services on Saturday in order to keep the sabbath holy. I just want the verse. What does the Lord say IN THE BIBLE that we are to do to keep the sabbath holy. Is having worship service on Saturday one of the requirements to keep the sabbath holy stated in the Word of God? I'm not trying to be funny or anything. It may say it, I don't know but I do not recall the scripture that says that we are to go to church on a specific day in accordance to keeping the sabbath holy.



The Ten Commandments state that the 7th day Sabbath is the Sabbath of the Lord our God.  There were also ceremonial Sabbaths that are now unnecessary, see Colossians 2.  Those kinds of Sabbaths were to be done away with. Those sabbaths pointed to when Christ was to come the first time. When the Jews came together on those sabbaths, animals were sacrificed.  Their blood represented Christ.  Now that the Christ had come, there was no need for those sabbaths.  The sacrificial/ceremonial law is now not need because of Christ's death on the cross.

Ok, I understand what you are trying to say here. Maybe I am not at all being clear. Keeping the Sabbath holy does not mean that you or I cannot go to church and worship God on any other day of the week. But is the fact that Christ did so and the fact that we are to follow His example as part of Sabbath observance - Godly centered activity -  not enough?  It is His example that we should follow. Luke 4:16, Luke 4:31, Acts 18:4

Remember also that church doesn't necessarily mean going to a building etc, but where 2 or 3 people are gathered in His name, He is there. However, again, no other day can be kept holy and put in place of the 7th day Sabbath.


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

alexstin said:


> What do sabbath keepers take these verses to mean:
> 
> Col. 2:16,17
> 
> ...




I just answered that above...but here is a very in depth discussion.

http://www.colossians-2-16.com/CeremonialLaw.pdf


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

highlyfavored2008 said:


> What you just stated my brother 2 weeks ago was telling me the same thing! This is so true. We just had a discusson on what you just said! God is so Good thank you for bringing this statement to light!



You're welcome! It's a really good discussion.  It took me awhile to understand and I am still learning...


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## Highly Favored8 (May 16, 2008)

divya said:


> You're welcome! It's a really good discussion. It took me awhile to understand and I am still learning...


 

your welcome I will let my brother read your post! B/c you and him think along the same lines!


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

highlyfavored2008 said:


> your welcome I will let my brother read your post! B/c you and him think along the same lines!



If you are following this whole discussion, this is helpful...

http://www.colossians-2-16.com/CeremonialLaw.pdf

I'd like to hear what you and your brother think about it...


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## HWAY (May 16, 2008)

Regarding how long Christians have worshipped on Sunday, please refer to the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Day
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_in_Christianity

Constanstine decreed Sunday as the day of worship in 321 A.D. 
St. Ignatius (30-107 A.D.) advocated Sunday worship long before Constantine.

"We have seen how former adherents of the ancient customs have since attained to a new hope; so that they have given up keeping the sabbath, and now order their lives by the Lord's Day instead (the day when life first dawned for us, thanks to Him and His death.)"

– Ignatius, To the Magnesians, chapter 9 (trans. Maxwell Staniforth)


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## Ms.Honey (May 16, 2008)

divya said:


> The Ten Commandments state that the 7th day Sabbath is the Sabbath of the Lord our God. There were also ceremonial Sabbaths that are now unnecessary, see Colossians 2. Those kinds of Sabbaths were to be done away with. Those sabbaths pointed to when Christ was to come the first time. When the Jews came together on those sabbaths, animals were sacrificed. Their blood represented Christ. Now that the Christ had come, there was no need for those sabbaths. The sacrificial/ceremonial law is now not need because of Christ's death on the cross.
> 
> Ok, I understand what you are trying to say here. Maybe I am not at all being clear. Keeping the Sabbath holy does not mean that you or I cannot go to church and worship God on any other day of the week. But is the fact that Christ did so and the fact that we are to follow His example as part of Sabbath observance - Godly centered activity - not enough? It is His example that we should follow. Luke 4:16, Luke 4:31, Acts 18:4
> 
> Remember also that church doesn't necessarily mean going to a building etc, but where 2 or 3 people are gathered in His name, He is there. However, again, no other day can be kept holy and put in place of the 7th day Sabbath.


I know what He did, how He did it and why He did it. What I'm asking you is where is the scripture where Jesus or the Father or anybody in fact in the Holy Bible says that going to church on the sabbath the seventh day from the 10 commandments is a way to keep the sabbath holy. Some examples that Jesus set that I have not done: raise people from the dead, nope never done that, turned water into wine, nope sure wish I could, restore blinded eyes, nope ain't done that either. I do follow His example of loving my enemy, doing unto others as I would have Jesus do unto me and loving God above all others. He went to the synagogue of the Jews and preached the gospel on the sabbath to the Jews. Is that what you do on Saturdays since we are to follow His example right?
 I just want the scripture that says keeping the sabbath holy and attending service on Saturday mean the same thing?


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## alexstin (May 16, 2008)

Do sabbath keepers believe keeping any other day then Saturday takes them out of right standing with God?


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

HWAY said:


> Regarding how long Christians have worshipped on Sunday, please refer to the following:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Day
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_in_Christianity
> ...



But it was not made "mandatory" for Christians unless the latter occasion.  That's is when it is claim that the Sabbath was officially changed, but no man can do so.  Only God can.


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> I know what He did, how He did it and why He did it. What I'm asking you is where is the scripture where Jesus or the Father or anybody in fact in the Holy Bible says that going to church on the sabbath the seventh day from the 10 commandments is a way to keep the sabbath holy. Some examples that Jesus set that I have not done: raise people from the dead, nope never done that, turned water into wine, nope sure wish I could, restore blinded eyes, nope ain't done that either. I do follow His example of loving my enemy, doing unto others as I would have Jesus do unto me and loving God above all others. He went to the synagogue of the Jews and preached the gospel on the sabbath to the Jews. Is that what you do on Saturdays since we are to follow His example right?
> I just want the scripture that says keeping the sabbath holy and attending service on Saturday mean the same thing?



If Jesus' example is not enough, I can give you nothing else. 

Why would keeping the Sabbath holy and attending service on Saturday mean the same thing? The latter, the assembly of ourselves, is only part of the former, given in Christ's example.


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

alexstin said:


> Do sabbath keepers believe keeping any other day then Saturday takes them out of right standing with God?



We believe that we cannot keep any other day holy.  If we choose not to keep the 7th-Day Sabbath holy, then we have broken the 4th commandment as that is what it requires.


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## Ms.Honey (May 16, 2008)

divya said:


> If Jesus' example is not enough, I can give you nothing else.
> 
> Why would keeping the Sabbath holy and attending service on Saturday mean the same thing? The latter, the assembly of ourselves, is only part of the former, given in Christ's example.


 
You can give me nothing else because there is nothing else to give.There is NO scripture, there is no where in the Holy bible that says that we are to attend service on Saturday's in accordance to keeping the sabbath holy. The is no where in the Holy bible where God the Father, Jesus, the Holy Ghost, the Apostles or anyone else says or even implies that attending church on Saturday is in accordance to keeping the sabbath holy. Jesus never said nor anyone else say that He was attending the synogogue in appliance to keeping the sabbath holy. If you want to say that we should attend Saturday service because Jesus did it then fine BUT to say that it is a requirement to keep the sabbath holy....nope.


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> You can give me nothing else because there is nothing else to give.There is NO scripture, there is no where in the Holy bible that says that we are to attend service on Saturday's in accordance to keeping the sabbath holy. The is no where in the Holy bible where God the Father, Jesus, the Holy Ghost, the Apostles or anyone else says or even implies that attending church on Saturday is in accordance to keeping the sabbath holy. Jesus never said nor anyone else say that He was attending the synogogue in appliance to keeping the sabbath holy. If you want to say that we should attend Saturday service because Jesus did it then fine BUT to say that it is a requirement to keep the sabbath holy....nope.



The Scriptures are there and were provided - those that included Christ's example of doing the same.  Now personally, I choose to take Christ's example and follow it.  If for you that is not enough, that is of course, your choice of belief.  If you believe that Christ's presence every Sabbath in the synagogue had nothing to do with His keeping of the Sabbath holy and thus there is no requirement, then again, that is is your choice. But the Bible does say to forsake not the assembling of ourselves and because Christ did such every Sabbath, I believe that the Bible is clear.  But we can agree to disagree. 

I realize that you got the idea from my response to you, that I meant the you cannot worship God on Sunday. What I said was the required Sunday worship came about through Constantine and Catholicism working together. You claimed that this was done because Christ rose on the first day of the week.  I disagreed with the origins, not the reason that you do so today.


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## Ms.Honey (May 16, 2008)

divya said:


> The Scriptures are there and were provided - those that included Christ's example of doing the same. Now personally, I choose to take Christ's example and follow it. If for you that is not enough, that is of course, your choice of belief. If you believe that Christ's presence every Sabbath in the synagogue had nothing to do with His keeping of the Sabbath holy and thus there is no requirement, then again, that is is your choice. But the Bible does say to forsake not the assembling of ourselves and because Christ did such every Sabbath, I believe that the Bible is clear. But we can agree to disagree.
> 
> I realize that you got the idea from my response to you, that I meant the you cannot worship God on Sunday. What I said was the required Sunday worship came about through Constantine and Catholicism working together. You claimed that this was done because Christ rose on the first day of the week. I disagreed with the origins, not the reason that you do so today.


What I'm saying is that going to church on Saturday or any other day doesn't keep the sabbath holy. Jesus went on Saturday because it was the tradition of the Jews, TRADITION not law from God to worship on Saturday which I by the way have no problem with. If they went on Wednesday then He would have preached on Wednesday's.
Where does it show the Apostles who followed Jesus' example right attended service on Saturdays? Where in their instruction does it say that we are to worship on Saturday. The bible is a very exact detailed book. Where in those details does it say Saturday worship service is required to keep the sabbath holy or required period? The ten commandents are broken down thoroughly. When the Lord gives instruction on the sabbath where does He say that they must attend the synagogue on that day to keep it holy? Attending church service and keeping the sabbath holy are to completely different things.


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> What I'm saying is that going to church on Saturday or any other day doesn't keep the sabbath holy. Jesus went on Saturday because it was the tradition of the Jews, TRADITION not law from God to worship on Saturday which I by the way have no problem with. If they went on Wednesday then He would have preached on Wednesday's.
> Where does it show the Apostles who followed Jesus' example right attended service on Saturdays? Where in their instruction does it say that we are to worship on Saturday. The bible is a very exact detailed book. Where in those details does it say Saturday worship service is required to keep the sabbath holy or required period? The ten commandents are broken down thoroughly. When the Lord gives instruction on the sabbath where does He say that they must attend the synagogue on that day to keep it holy? Attending church service and keeping the sabbath holy are to completely different things.



Well, I guess we have totally different views on the matter. It seems that we also have a different view of what what "church" or maybe the words "worship service" mean.  I do though believe that worship is part of keeping the Sabbath holy. The 10 Commandments does not go into much detail but personally, I do believe Christ gives us the example of how to live our lives. Further, the Bible calls the 7th-Day Sabbath, a day of *holy convocation.* A convocation means that people come together for a particular reason. It is discussed in Leviticus 23 where the Lord again distinguishes between the 7th Day Sabbath and the ceremonial Sabbaths. Again however, we will likely differ there based on beliefs in the Old and New Testament. 

Anyway, I do have to run, but will check in later.  Thanks you very much for the discussion. Even though we may not agree, it helps to solidify our faith in the Lord and reliance on the Word. Take Care and God Bless!


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## Ms.Honey (May 16, 2008)

divya said:


> Well, I guess we have totally different views on the matter. It seems that we also have a different view of what what "church" or maybe the words "worship service" mean. I do though believe that worship is part of keeping the Sabbath holy. The 10 Commandments does not go into much detail but personally, I do believe Christ gives us the example of how to live our lives. Further, the Bible calls the 7th-Day Sabbath, a day of *holy convocation.* A convocation means that people come together for a particular reason. It is discussed in Leviticus 23 where the Lord again distinguishes between the 7th Day Sabbath and the ceremonial Sabbaths. Again, we will likely differ there based on beliefs in the Old and New Testament.
> 
> Anyway, I do have to run, but will check in later. Thanks you very much for the discussion. Even though we may not agree, it helps to solidify our faith in the Lord and reliance on the Word. Take Care and God Bless!


 The holy convovation is to a sabbath in the seventh month in Lev.23. That's also not the only days He says for them to have holy convocations. There are more than 10 commandments. In the book of Leviticus the Lord explains how to obey each commandment INCLUDING keeping the sabbath holy and He does not mention having church services (per my description or yours) on that day is required to keep it holy unless I missed that part.
The bible says that Jesus went to the synogogue on the sabbath as was His CUSTOM/habit/tradition. Not that He went to the synogogue on the sabbath because He was required by the law to do so on Saturday.
 I believe that we are to keep the sabbath holy not that it can only be done on Saturdays but everyday. I believe that we are to live by Jesus' example but not copy ALL of His works and actions. That's ot what that means, if it did I would have to get baptized in the Jordan river etc.


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> The holy convovation is to a sabbath in the seventh month in Lev.23. That's also not the only days He says for them to have holy convocations. There are more than 10 commandments. In the book of Leviticus the Lord explains how to obey each commandment INCLUDING keeping the sabbath holy and He does not mention having church services (per my description or yours) on that day is required to keep it holy unless I missed that part.
> The bible says that Jesus went to the synogogue on the sabbath as was His CUSTOM/habit/tradition. Not that He went to the synogogue on the sabbath because He was required by the law to do so on Saturday.
> I believe that we are to keep the sabbath holy not that it can only be done on Saturdays but everyday. I believe that we are to live by Jesus' example but not copy ALL of His works and actions. That's ot what that means, if it did I would have to get baptized in the Jordan river etc.



Lev. 23 sets out holy convocation the 7th Day Sabbath (first) as well as for ceremonial sabbaths (second). Church services/convocation are not necessarily different in my belief - it's assembly. I have met for church in someone's home, or in the park etc., on Sabbath with fellow believers. It is the same thing as Jesus going to the synagogue. Being physically in a synagogue is not the only way to fulfill holy convocation, so maybe that why in one of the verses - not all- that it points out that it was His custom. 

Yea, we will have to disagree.  In my belief, keeping the Sabbath holy means that 7th Day Sabbath which it specifically set out in the Ten Commandments. Some things are more specific than others in the Bible. It's certainly not unreasonable to do, while still following Him everyday. But that's me though...

Just curious? Do you choose any day of the week to keep holy in general or do have you chosen  specific day? For example, where I live, the Lutherans keep sundays instead of the Sabbath.  But similarly, they do no work etc. I shop at their grocery, and they close on Sunday.


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## HeChangedMyName (May 16, 2008)

Here is a guy that I like on youtube describing what laws were nailed to the cross(meaning which laws were fulfilled and we no longer had to live under them) He does a great job of explaining and cross referencing the OT and NT laws.  Just click the link Part 1 Part 2

Now, as far as my own opinion on it.  Jesus said himself that he didn't come to make the Laws go away.  What he did was to fulfill the laws.  A lot of the old laws included sacraficial practices and ceromonies that were used for the purpose of purification before God.  Now that we have the blood of Jesus to wash us clean, we no longer need ceremonies and stuff to purify us.  Now the 10 Commandments are the Laws that God gave us and because we are to keep those in our heart for ever, and our mind is to become like the mind of Christ, then we will keep those laws forever.


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

SuperNova said:


> Here is a guy that I like on youtube describing what laws were nailed to the cross(meaning which laws were fulfilled and we no longer had to live under them) He does a great job of explaining and cross referencing the OT and NT laws.  Just click the link Part 1 Part 2
> 
> Now, as far as my own opinion on it.  Jesus said himself that he didn't come to make the Laws go away.  What he did was to fulfill the laws.  A lot of the old laws included sacraficial practices and ceromonies that were used for the purpose of purification before God.  Now that we have the blood of Jesus to wash us clean, we no longer need ceremonies and stuff to purify us.  Now the 10 Commandments are the Laws that God gave us and because we are to keep those in our heart for ever, and our mind is to become like the mind of Christ, then we will keep those laws forever.




Wow...excellent videos. The ark of the covenant aspect is something that really am not versed well enough in. Thank you for sharing.

On another note, he has so much energy!


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## Ms.Honey (May 16, 2008)

divya said:


> Lev. 23 sets out holy convocation the 7th Day Sabbath (first) as well as for ceremonial sabbaths (second). Church services/convocation are not necessarily different in my belief - it's assembly. I have met for church in someone's home, or in the park etc., on Sabbath with fellow believers. It is the same thing as Jesus going to the synagogue. Being physically in a synagogue is not the only way to fulfill holy convocation, so maybe that why in one of the verses - not all- that it points out that it was His custom.
> 
> Yea, we will have to disagree. In my belief, keeping the Sabbath holy means that 7th Day Sabbath which it specifically set out in the Ten Commandments. Some things are more specific than others in the Bible. It's certainly not unreasonable to do, while still following Him everyday. But that's me though...
> 
> Just curious? Do you choose any day of the week to keep holy in general or do have you chosen specific day? For example, where I live, the Lutherans keep sundays instead of the Sabbath. But similarly, they do no work etc. I shop at their grocery, and they close on Sunday.


 
Nope no specific set apart day, I do it everyday. I don't do my own will but the will of God so I rest from my own works. I believe everyday is to be kept holy unto God.
 Where I live the Jehovah witnesses used to worship strictly on Saturday stating the same reasons you have. Now I notice that more and more halls have switched from Saturday worship to Sunday worship but I have no idea what their reasoning is.
  I don't believe that a worship service has to be held in a traditional church building but when I gather with my sisters and we glorify God I don't consider it a church service, it's a fellowship. In the Epistles it shows that some saints did have churches in their home though.
  I do believe that we are to remember the sabbath and keep it holy but that we have the commandment and the power through Jesus Christ to keep everyday holy. Jesus did many things on Saturday's the sabbath, performed many miracles but they were not to keep the sabbath holy. He was trying to show them that He was the Lord of the Sabbath and their works/observances of that day were not what was going to save them but that He was because He is the fulfillment of the law. Because He fulfilled the law I can take my rest (sabbath) in His Word. I remember what God has done for me daily not just Saturday. He has put His laws in my heart and causes me to keep ALL of His commandments.


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> Nope no specific set apart day, I do it everyday. I don't do my own will but the will of God so I rest from my own works. I believe everyday is to be kept holy unto God.
> Where I live the Jehovah witnesses used to worship strictly on Saturday stating the same reasons you have. Now I notice that more and more halls have switched from Saturday worship to Sunday worship but I have no idea what their reasoning is.
> I don't believe that a worship service has to be held in a traditional church building but when I gather with my sisters and we glorify God I don't consider it a church service, it's a fellowship. In the Epistles it shows that some saints did have churches in their home though.
> I do believe that we are to remember the sabbath and keep it holy but that we have the commandment and the power through Jesus Christ to keep everyday holy. Jesus did many things on Saturday's the sabbath, performed many miracles but they were not to keep the sabbath holy. He was trying to show them that He was the Lord of the Sabbath and their works/observances of that day were not what was going to save them but that He was because He is the fulfillment of the law. Because He fulfilled the law I can take my rest (sabbath) in His Word. I remember what God has done for me daily not just Saturday. He has put His laws in my heart and causes me to keep ALL of His commandments.



Interesting view. I agree that Jesus is our Savior. Keeping God's Sabbath along with all other Commandments - in my understanding - is evidence that we remember His sacrifice and following Him out of love. Do you have any verses that show that every day has been set aside to be treated holy like the 7th Day Sabbath? 

Jehovah Witnesses around me keep Sunday. I didn't know any of them kept Sabbath. There aren't listed among the Sabbath keeping faiths.  I'll keep them in mind though...thanks!


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## Ms.Honey (May 16, 2008)

divya said:


> Interesting view. I agree that Jesus is our Savior. Keeping God's Sabbath along with all other Commandments - in my understanding - is evidence that we remember His sacrifice and following Him out of love. Do you have any verses that show that every day has been set aside to be treated holy like the 7th Day Sabbath?
> 
> Jehovah Witnesses around me keep Sunday. I didn't know any of them kept Sabbath. There aren't listed among the Sabbath keeping faiths. I'll keep them in mind though...thanks!


 Girl it's too late and my brain is shutting down but I'll post them tomorrow. Tooo much reading and thinking
 Do any JW's post here? Maybe they can explain the some Sat. some Sun. thing?


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## divya (May 16, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> Girl it's too late and my brain is shutting down but I'll post them tomorrow. Tooo much reading and thinking
> Do any JW's post here? Maybe they can explain the some Sat. some Sun. thing?



True! How long have we been at this?   Have a good night! 

Who knows, maybe there will be some JW's will post by the morning...


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## discobiscuits (May 17, 2008)

adequate said:


> Okay, I'm having a problem with something.
> 
> It is often said that we are under the "new testament law" and that the laws in the Old Testament no longer apply.
> 
> ...



Hi.

I'm addressing the bold. I did read most posts and skimmed some others so if the following has been posted before, please forgive my overlooking it.

As it relates to addressing homosexuals about new testament teaching I like this passage:



> *1 Corinthians 6:9-11* *9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor **homosexual offenders* *10* nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.  *11* _*And that is what some of you were.*_ But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.


My favorite part is the blue...we WERE and now we are washed and sanctified. I also like that this passage pretty much includes everyone and supports other passages where we are told that all have sinned and fallen short. I think part of people's animosity toward gays is that the OT says that it is an abomination so I think some people improperly use that as a license to come down harder on a gay than say an adulterer or thief. 



> *Leviticus 18:22*  Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
> *Leviticus 20:13*  If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.


We humans categorize and place value on sins. God does not. 
To humans one sin, say murder, is worse than say fornication or lying. To God all sin is unrighteousness and one is no more or less so. He sees all sin as equal. The only other sin in question is the unpardonable one and that I believe refers to blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

Sidebar:
As to things like what we eat, Jesus said that it is what comes out of our mouths not what goes in that defiles us.


> *Matthew 15:18*
> But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
> 
> *Matthew 15:20*
> ...


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## HWAY (May 17, 2008)

I know some JW congregations meet on Saturday  but they are not Sabbath keepers.  Sometime several congregations share the same kingdom Hall so some congregations meet on Sunday and one may meet on Saturday.  One is likely to find a meeting any day (or night) of the week in a city with a lot of Jehovah's Witnessess.  They believe being a Christian is a way of life, not reserved for one or two days a week. 

JWs believe Christians are no longer under the law (Gal 3:24).


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## gone_fishing (May 17, 2008)

jenniferohjenny said:


> Hi.
> 
> I'm addressing the bold. I did read most posts and skimmed some others so if the following has been posted before, please forgive my overlooking it.
> 
> ...


 
Awesome post! Thank you!


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## DonnaDi31Proverbi (May 17, 2008)

jenniferohjenny said:


> Hi.
> 
> I'm addressing the bold. I did read most posts and skimmed some others so if the following has been posted before, please forgive my overlooking it.
> 
> ...


 

Amen, so true!


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## tffy2004 (May 18, 2008)

I think it is soooo funny how all that profess to follow the Messiah and obey the ten commandments and read from the same bible have such polarized views on the Sabbath and other hot topics.

As for the original question, I feel that the answer is very simple. It all goes back to creation. When God created all that he created he made only two people in the beginning Adam (male) Eve (female). Which set up how sexuality was meant to be and nature was supposed to be. Had he wanted us to be with the same sex I honestly think he would have created two females and two males and been like ya'll do what you want and figure it out for yourselves. But he didn't, he set us an example by creating one female and one male.

The Messiah warns us not to think that he came to abolish the laws (commandments/moral laws) but to fulfill them (Sacrificial laws/commandments/moral laws). He was the Lamb of God who was sacrificed for our sins. Before the Messiah was made flesh we had to sacrifice animals for our sins. After he was sacrificed we don't have to do that anymore which is why him being crucified takes away only sacrificial laws. Homosexuality has nothing to do with sacrificial laws, I don't think, so homosexuality is still not of God and its an abomination to him.

How did the Messiah fulfill the Commandments and Moral laws? He obeyed them.
How did the Messiah fulfill the sacrificial laws? He was sacrificed/crucified.

Anyway, Great thread!!


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## alexstin (May 18, 2008)

tffy2004 said:


> I think it is soooo funny how all that profess to follow the Messiah and obey the ten commandments and read from the same bible have such polarized views on the Sabbath and other hot topics.
> 
> As for the original question, I feel that the answer is very simple. It all goes back to creation. When God created all that he created he made only two people in the beginning Adam (male) Eve (female). Which set up how sexuality was meant to be and nature was supposed to be. *Had he wanted us to be with the same sex I honestly think he would have created two females and two males and been like ya'll do what you want and figure it out for yourselves.* But he didn't, he set us an example by creating one female and one male.
> 
> ...





It's so obvious.


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## Farida (May 21, 2008)

adequate said:


> Okay, I'm having a problem with something.
> 
> It is often said that we are under the "new testament law" and that the laws in the Old Testament no longer apply.
> 
> ...



There is a DIRECT reference to homosexuality in the NT.


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## Crown (May 21, 2008)

divya said:


> Interesting view. I agree that Jesus is our Savior. Keeping God's Sabbath along with all other Commandments - in my understanding - is evidence that we remember His sacrifice and following Him out of love. Do you have any verses that show that every day has been set aside to be treated holy like the 7th Day Sabbath?
> 
> Jehovah Witnesses around me keep Sunday. I didn't know any of them kept Sabbath. There aren't listed among the Sabbath keeping faiths.  I'll keep them in mind though...thanks!



Hebrews 4 (especially verse 7), Acts 15 (especially verse 28-29)
For OP about homosexuality: 1 Cor 6:9, 1 Tim 1:9-10, Rom 1:24-28


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## divya (May 21, 2008)

HWAY said:


> I know some JW congregations meet on Saturday  but they are not Sabbath keepers.  Sometime several congregations share the same kingdom Hall so some congregations meet on Sunday and one may meet on Saturday.  One is likely to find a meeting any day (or night) of the week in a city with a lot of Jehovah's Witnessess.  They believe being a Christian is a way of life, not reserved for one or two days a week.
> 
> JWs believe Christians are no longer under the law (Gal 3:24).



That's what have I known about JW - they are Sunday keepers.

Christianity is a way of the life for Sabbath-keepers.  Just because we keep the 7th-day Sabbath as God instituted, as opposed to Sunday, does not mean that our faith is reserved for one day. One is likely to find those of my faith meeting any day (or night) of the week, and also adhering to certain health counsel etc. Do you believe Sunday keepers reserve their faith for one day a week? Just wondering...


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## Caramela (May 21, 2008)

I'm joining late but I do have some scriptures to add that may be beneficial to all. Romans 1: 24- 32 
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 

 25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 

 26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: *for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:* 

 27*And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another;* men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 

 28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 

 29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 

 30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 

 31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, *without natural affection*, implacable, unmerciful: 

 32*Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death*, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


God is not pleased with homosexuality. Point blank.

As far as NT laws and OT laws, Jesus came to fufill a prophesy of the OT being put to rest and a new law (or new testament) being put into place. A testament is a will, and will can not go into effect until the testator (in this case, Jesus) died. 
 Though all scripture is useful for us 2 Timothy 3:16 _All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:_ The scriptures show that the OT was not to be the law we follow and that it was to eventually perish.But as for the laws that we are to follow, those come from the New Testament are written for Christians (not Jews, as the OT laws were written for).
Here is proof scripturally that the OT laws were to be replaced and are no longer in effect. 

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Hebrews 8:7-13

 7 *For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. *

 8 *For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:* Showing that this will be a covenant or testament that's all inclusive, not just for the JEWS

 9 *Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. *

 10 *For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: * 11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 

*12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. *In the old testament God was not merciful, or forgiving. 

 13In that he saith, *A new covenant, he hath made the first old*. *Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.*And when would it "vanish" away? With the death of Jesus so that a new testament could take the place of the old.


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## divya (May 21, 2008)

^^^ 
But how can one state the God was not merciful or forgiving in the Old Testament? God is the same yesterday, today and always. God was more than merciful or forgiving to Israel, who continuous broke His Commandments. Yet He loved and cared for them. *Human disobedience was the reason why God made a second covenant with us. * God intended that human follow the first covenant by faith but we failed to do that. So He gave a second covenant so that we may be able to do so. God's ways are perfect. It is we who often fall short...

That is why Hebrews 8:8 says *finding fault with THEM* and it also states in verse 9 that "*THEY* continued not in my covenant." 

Also when we read Hebrew 8-10, we realize that the first covenant focused on sacrificial and ceremonial laws. Christ's death did away with those. His blood is sufficient and there is no need for the blood of animals. The moral law, God's Commandments, not done away with, which is why it is repeated in the second covenant. 

"Here is the patience of the saints, here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus."  Rev.14:12

"Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city."  Rev. 22:14


*For those who believe that the Commandments are no more, how do you interpret the word "commandments" in the second covenant? Such as in the verses above or in the verses that quote the Ten Commandments in the second covenant...*


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## Caramela (May 22, 2008)

divya said:


> ^^^
> But how can one state the God was not merciful or forgiving in the Old Testament? God is the same yesterday, today and always. God was more than merciful or forgiving to Israel, who continuous broke His Commandments. Yet He loved and cared for them. *Human disobedience was the reason why God made a second covenant with us. * God intended that human follow the first covenant by faith but we failed to do that. So He gave a second covenant so that we may be able to do so. God's ways are perfect. It is we who often fall short...
> 
> That is why Hebrews 8:8 says *finding fault with THEM* and it also states in verse 9 that "*THEY* continued not in my covenant."
> ...



God was not merciful and forgiving in the first covenant. If the people that HE chose to be his own did not obey, the penalties often included death. There was no repentance in the old testament. There was no asking God for forgiveness... if you sinned God just simply turned away from you and refused to hear what you had to say.  (Isaiah 59:1-2 1 _Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:  2But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that *he will not hear. *_ That is not the way things are now through Christ. 

The scriptures I gave you specifically say that. I cannot dispute scriptures. Hebrews 8:7 7 _*For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. *_So there was obviously some "fault" with the Old Testament. And why would God have his people following a faulty law? Doesn't make sense does it? 


Instead of God selecting a people, now people are given the free-will to obey God. So they follow his commandments out of love and not just obligation.


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## Crown (May 22, 2008)

divya said:


> ^^^
> *For those who believe that the Commandments are no more, how do you interpret the word "commandments" in the second covenant? Such as in the verses above or in the verses that quote the Ten Commandments in the second covenant...*



For a christian, there is more than ten Commandments. For example:
Jhn 13:14-15  If I then, [your] Lord and Master, have washed your feet; you also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you.
Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
Luk 22:19  And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake [it], and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.


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## discobiscuits (May 22, 2008)

Caramela said:


> God was not merciful and forgiving in the first covenant.


Actually He was merciful and forgiving. That is why the priests had to make intercession for the people, used a scape goat, and if God accepted the sacrifice, the people were forgiven. If not, He killed the priest.


Caramela said:


> Instead of God selecting a people, *now* people are given the free-will to obey God. So they follow his commandments out of love and not just obligation.


Humans have always had free will to dis/obey God since Adam & Eve were created. They were the 1st to exercise that will and sin against God. Sin is a willful act, one cannot sin if s/he does not have the free will to do so. 

As for being under grace, it appears that Jesus explained that the OT commandments were still in effect.


> [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]*Matthew 22:36-40*[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] *36* Master, which is the great commandment in the law?   *37* Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.   *38* This is the first and great commandment.   *39* And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.   *40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.*[/FONT]


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## Caramela (May 22, 2008)

jenniferohjenny said:


> Actually He was merciful and forgiving. *That is why the priests had to make intercession for the people, used a scape goat, and if God accepted the sacrifice, the people were forgiven. If not, He killed the priest.*<<< We don't have to sacrifice animals or worry about being struck dead ... through Jesus we can be forgiven and our sins remembered no more. God is much more forgiving under the new testament.
> *Humans have always had free will to dis/obey God since Adam & Eve were created. They were the 1st to exercise that will and sin against God. Sin is a willful act, one cannot sin if s/he does not have the free will to do so.* <<<<< Yes people have always had free will concerning their actions. What I am refering to is God basically said _"ok, Jews, you are my chosen people"_ without them having a say in the matter. So basically if they didn't want to be one his chosen people, then tough luck for them. They had better obey, or risk the consequences for their disobedience. These days a person can obey God of their own free-will. Meaning, God doesn't select a group of people and MAKE them be his chosen people.
> 
> *As for being under grace, it appears that Jesus explained that the OT commandments were still in effect*.


 <<<< Yes, when Jesus walked the earth, the OT laws were indeed still in effect. Again, for a testament (or will) to be inforced, the testator must die. Testator for the new testament being Jesus.


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## Evolving78 (May 22, 2008)

wow! you guys are teaching me today! continue...


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## divya (May 22, 2008)

Crown said:


> *For a christian, there is more than ten Commandments.* For example:
> Jhn 13:14-15  If I then, [your] Lord and Master, have washed your feet; you also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you.
> Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
> Luk 22:19  And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake [it], and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.



Of course there is. The Bible teaches many lessons and gives a plethora of counsel. Why not do our best to live by at all? As Christians, we should live by the light that we have...all the light. 

Speaking of washing each other's feet, does your faith do footwashing? Mine does as part of communion, but I was wondering if any other faiths do as well...


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## Ms.Honey (May 22, 2008)

I ain't washing nobody's feet. That was done because they wore sandals and would step in dung because of all of the animals out and about. As a show of hospitality the host would wash their guests feet. It was a tradition. Jesus did it to teach us to do unto others as we would have Jesus do unto us.


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## divya (May 22, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> *I ain't washing nobody's feet*. That was done because they wore sandals and would step in dung because of all of the animals out and about. As a show of hospitality the host would wash their guests feet. It was a tradition. Jesus did it to teach us to do unto others as we would have Jesus do unto us.



  

We do it to show that we love others as Christ loves us.  It's showing of humility. As you mentioned, when Christ washed the disciples feet, there was even more going on than just the tradition.

I love it. It does humble in a special way. It's nice to grab a visitor and make sure that someone washes their feet. It makes people feel like part of the family of God...


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## discobiscuits (May 23, 2008)

Caramela said:


> <<<< Yes, when Jesus walked the earth, the OT laws were indeed still in effect. Again, for a testament (or will) to be enforced, the testator must die. Testator for the new testament being Jesus.



If i infer your post correctly, you are saying that the OT commandments including the "10" commandments are no longer in effect and no longer apply to NT Christians since Jesus has died. Please correct me if I inferred incorrectly.

Because...

If what I infer from your post is correct then that means I can disregard everything Paul taught in Romans 7, 13 and Ephesians 6. I also surmise that if Jesus' "death" freed us from the law, then I can commit any or all of the OT sins, and then go to God and ask forgiveness and all will be okay. In fact I would not have to ask for forgiveness because I would not have sinned because the commandments/OT law are no longer in effect.

In Jude there is a warning to beware of people who teach us that grace means we can do what we want.


> Jude 1:4
> 4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality...



I also assume based on how I understand your post that the book of Revelations would be irrelevant.

Please let me know if I got that right or if I have misunderstood what you were trying to say. I honestly do think I've misunderstood your post.


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## discobiscuits (May 23, 2008)

*I totally missed this:*


Caramela said:


> <<< We don't have to sacrifice animals or worry about being struck dead ... through Jesus we can be forgiven and our sins remembered no more. God is much more forgiving under the new testament.


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]*I disagree, as would *[/FONT]*[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Ananias and his wife Sapphira[/FONT]*[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]*,  in *[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]*Acts 5:1-11. They fell dead because they lied. This event occurred after Christ's resurrection. I interpret that to mean that people under grace can still get "struck down" dead. 

We do not have to sacrifice animals anymore because Jesus was the perfect sacrifice. That does not exempt us from obeying God. 

In my opinion, God is the same yesterday, today and forever so he is just as forgiving now as He was then. In God there is no change. The difference is because in the OT mankind demanded rules and leaders, God gave them what they asked for. In the NT the only change is we no longer need a priest to make intercession for us, the wall of partition is gone and we have an Advocate to the Father who makes intercession for us. If God was not as forgiving in the OT he would never have spared the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah, he would have denied Lot's request to save the people therein. 




*[/FONT]


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## discobiscuits (May 23, 2008)

Caramela said:


> Romans: 31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, *without natural affection*, implacable, unmerciful:
> 
> *God is not pleased with homosexuality. Point blank.*



Regarding natural affection: *The bold means that mankind lacked the basic human care one for another a.k.a. compassion and empathy.

*Regarding homosexuality:*I submit that God is not pleased with any sin, and as it relates to homosexuality, He is not pleased with ANY sexual sin.*


> [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]*Jude1:7* In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to *sexual immorality and perversion *(this includes all sexual sins). They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.[/FONT]


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## discobiscuits (May 23, 2008)

Caramela said:


> But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Hebrews 8:7-13
> 
> 7 *For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. *
> 
> ...



As it relates to the above. The covenant spoken of is about the one w/ Aaronic preisthood mediated by Moses. Jesus is now our mediator.

As it relates to new and better and passing away w/ the death of Jesus, it means that Levitical order or priesthood is gone. Instead of an ark w/ tablets in it and rules on stone that _same_ law in the OT is now written on our hearts. The OT law of Moses could not make men perfect (meaning complete & ready for eternal life). I added Paul's commentary in one of my other posts about how the knowledge of the law taught people of sin and w/o it he would not have known what sin was. 

I may agree that the old is passed and the new is in effect but I see too many references to the law and the prophets in the New that tell me that we are to still abide by the commandments and that we do so by what I said in my earlier posts. 

Jesus is the fulfillment of the law and he taught us while he was here how to obey the law he fulfilled. Just because he no longer walks this earth does not mean that his instructions are no longer to be obeyed or enforced.


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## Caramela (May 23, 2008)

JenniferohJenny, I'm sorry but I don't have the energy in me to do the quotes and answer that way b/c there were so many responses. I hope you understand 
I don't think you misunderstood me, it's probably my fault. Maybe I was a little too vague. But I'll be happy to clarify. In saying that the OT laws are no longer applicable, I am in no way saying that this is a license to go out and do the opposite of those laws and just ask for forgiveness and everything is ok. No. I certainly don't agree with that. But the whole premise of the 10 commandments and other sacrements and laws is that they were not held in the hearts of the people. They were not being obedient for the right reason. Many of the laws in the OT are repeated and even more strict than those in the OT... for example, the 10 commandments tells a person not to committ adultery but in the NT we are told that a man shouldn't even look upon a woman with lust in his eyes lest he committ adultery... another example is in the 10 commandments we are told not to kill, but the NT says not to be jealous, envious, hate, have malice etc... So we still have similar expectations. The difference is, that when we do sin, we can repent and ask for forgiveness. True Godly sorrow = repentance. Repentance doesn't mean a person can do whatever they please and just take forgiveness for granted. 
I hope that helps. 
It is understood that God is not pleased with any sin, or any sexual sin. But for the intents and purposes of the OP's question, I addressed homosexuality. How I know the scripture I referenced regarding unnatural affections refers to homosexuality can be explained in the surrounding text. It says something to the effect of men turning from the affection of women and to the lusting of men (paraphrasing) ...


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## discobiscuits (May 23, 2008)

To Caramela from JOJ:

Oh, OK.


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## Crown (May 23, 2008)

divya said:


> Speaking of washing each other's feet, *does your faith do footwashing?* Mine does as part of communion, but I was wondering if any other faiths do as well...



*YES!*



MSHONEY said:


> I ain't washing nobody's feet. That was done because they wore sandals and would step in dung because of all of the animals out and about. As a show of hospitality the host would wash their guests feet. It was a tradition...



*It was not tradition.* The tradition was to wash feet and hands BEFORE eating: Luk 7:44  And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped [them] with the hairs of her head.
But Jhn 13:2  And *supper being ended*, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's [son], to betray him;
Jhn 13:3  He *riseth from supper*, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.
Jhn 13:5  After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe [them] with the towel wherewith he was girded.
Jhn 13: 14-15  If I then, [your] Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
It's about humility and compassion!
But we are hijacking the thread, sorry!
Blessings


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## MrsQueeny (May 23, 2008)

divya said:


> Of course there is. The Bible teaches many lessons and gives a plethora of counsel. Why not do our best to live by at all? As Christians, we should live by the light that we have...all the light.
> 
> *Speaking of washing each other's feet, does your faith do footwashing? Mine does as part of communion, but I was wondering if any other faiths do as well...*



We do as well. My church is of the Christian faith. Q


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## Cichelle (May 23, 2008)

It's always interesting to me when Christians think Jews need blood sacrifice for atonement/forgiveness...or that the Tanakh says this is the only way, even in biblical times. There is a lack of understanding in regards to Judaism, Tanakh, Hebrew language and etc. 

Just for the record, we (Jews) don't need blood of any kind to atone and be forgiven.


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## Caramela (May 23, 2008)

Cichelle said:


> It's always interesting to me when Christians think Jews need blood sacrifice for atonement/forgiveness...or that the Tanakh says this is the only way, even in biblical times. There is a lack of understanding in regards to Judaism, Tanakh, Hebrew language and etc.
> 
> Just for the record, we (Jews) don't need blood of any kind to atone and be forgiven.



I know this is a Christianity forum, but if I'm not overstepping my bounds by asking, what exactly do Jews believe in terms of Christ? Are Jews still awaiting a messiah?


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## Cichelle (May 23, 2008)

Caramela said:


> I know this is a Christianity forum, but if I'm not overstepping my bounds by asking, what exactly do Jews believe in terms of Christ? Are Jews still awaiting a messiah?



Moshiach has not come yet. As to the details of this, I'd be glad to answer any questions or direct you to the answers from a Jewish perspective if you send me a pm. I don't want to hijack the thread or take this discussion to things forbidden on this forum. But I try to correct errors here when it pertains to Judaism. If you send me a pm, please give me until Sunday to answer, as our Sabbath starts tonight at sundown.


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## cheetarah1980 (May 23, 2008)

There is a lot in this thread to comment on, but this post stood out to me.


alexstin said:


> What do sabbath keepers take these verses to mean:
> 
> Col. 2:16,17
> 
> ...


*Once again context is key.  In the first verse of this chapter Paul says to not judge one another in regards to DEBATABLE issues.  Everything that follows rests on the phrase debatable issues.  When Paul wrote this the weekly Sabbath day was NOT debated.  1st century Christ followers worshipped alongside Jews in the temple/synagogue on Saturday.  What was debated at the time was the Sabbath day of one of the Biblical festivals.  There was disagreement as to how to count the days to when it began.  Paul is basically telling believers that in that specific case, it doesn't really matter.  He is NOT changing nor negating the Saturday Sabbath.  He's not talking about it all.  So in terms of using this verse as a proof text that any day can be the Sabbath, it's not relevant.*
[/quote]

I have the feeling that if more Christians studied ancient Middle Eastern and Hebrew culture, geography, sociology, and history many theological debates wouldn't exist.


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## divya (May 24, 2008)

Cichelle said:


> It's always interesting to me when Christians think Jews need blood sacrifice for atonement/forgiveness...or that the Tanakh says this is the only way, even in biblical times. There is a lack of understanding in regards to Judaism, Tanakh, Hebrew language and etc.
> 
> Just for the record, we (Jews) don't need blood of any kind to atone and be forgiven.



I understand but we are discussing what was nailed to the cross in terms of Christianity. Blood sacrifice is not longer a part of our faith because we believe in Jesus Christ.


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## discobiscuits (May 24, 2008)

cheetarah1980 said:


> I have the feeling that if more Christians studied ancient Middle Eastern and Hebrew culture, geography, sociology, and history many theological debates wouldn't exist.


More importantly, if the people who teach us (pastors, religious leaders) did this we would know more and do better.


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## queenspence (May 24, 2008)

Interesting thread...


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## cheetarah1980 (May 24, 2008)

Caramela said:


> JenniferohJenny, I'm sorry but I don't have the energy in me to do the quotes and answer that way b/c there were so many responses. I hope you understand
> I don't think you misunderstood me, it's probably my fault. Maybe I was a little too vague. But I'll be happy to clarify. In saying that the OT laws are no longer applicable, I am in no way saying that this is a license to go out and do the opposite of those laws and just ask for forgiveness and everything is ok. No. I certainly don't agree with that. But the whole premise of the 10 commandments and other sacrements and laws is that they were not held in the hearts of the people. They were not being obedient for the right reason. *Many of the laws in the OT are repeated and even more strict than those in the OT...* for example, the 10 commandments tells a person not to committ adultery but in the NT we are told that a man shouldn't even look upon a woman with lust in his eyes lest he committ adultery... another example is in the 10 commandments we are told not to kill, but the NT says not to be jealous, envious, hate, have malice etc... So we still have similar expectations. The difference is, that when we do sin, we can repent and ask for forgiveness. True Godly sorrow = repentance. Repentance doesn't mean a person can do whatever they please and just take forgiveness for granted.
> I hope that helps.



As to the bolded, I think this is a misunderstanding that many Christians have regarding the Sermon on the Mount.  Once again the context is the key.  Jesus was NOT adding additional restrictions to the commands.  He was teaching about the spirit in which the commands were originally given.  By Jesus' time much of the HEART of the Law (Torah) had given way to legalism.  People were often following the letter of the law and getting away with things without technically breaking the commands.  When Jesus says that lust in the heart is equal to the act of adultery, he's speaking to the condition of one's mind/heart that leads to the actual act.  The act in and of itself is only the external result of an internal issue. If you're not lusting after someone, then the act of adultery won't be an issue.  The same goes for murder, divorce, etc.  Jesus basically telling them to check themselves before they wreck themselves.  Remember Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law and Prophets.  Fulfillment means to live out in the spirit with which it was intended, in heart and mind as well as in deed.


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## cheetarah1980 (May 24, 2008)

Caramela said:


> *God was not merciful and forgiving in the first covenant. If the people that HE chose to be his own did not obey, the penalties often included death.* There was no repentance in the old testament. There was no asking God for forgiveness... if you sinned God just simply turned away from you and refused to hear what you had to say.  (Isaiah 59:1-2 1 _Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:  2But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that *he will not hear. *_ That is not the way things are now through Christ.
> 
> * Instead of God selecting a people, now people are given the free-will to obey God. So they follow his commandments out of love and not just obligation.*



Where in scripture does the bolded idea come from?  God was NOT merciful in giving the 1st covenant (which is no different from the second)?  The covenant was given after one of the most merciful acts of God ever (the Exodus).  He had chosen Israel as his treasured possession and given them a covenant to keep with him.  How is that NOT merciful?  There was no repentance?  After the Golden Calf incident was Israel not in a state of mourning and repentance when they realized the gravity of their sin.  Did Israel NOT come to repentance again when Elijah proved who the true God is in the face of Baal worshipers?  God was merciful and forgiving then as he is now.  Yes Israel screwed up A LOT (really no differently than we do now), however they did NOT get back into God's favor by simply following rules.  First came the admission of their sin and repentance and a renewed commitment to follow God's commands.
If there was no repentance or forgiveness in the OT how do you explain prophesy about Israel once again being brought back to the land from the far corners of the Earth (which is happening today)?  Sin has consequences and Israel has suffered many.  However, forgiveness is NOT something new that just started when Christ died.


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## cheetarah1980 (May 24, 2008)

alexstin said:


> But how and when should we keep it? According to Jewish law Jesus broke the Sabbath by working. As you said the Sabbath is made for man not the other way around. Why did Jesus work on the Sabbath and give the reason that He works because our Father is always working? Other than  creation when did God rest on the 7th day? I'd like to check it out.



If Jesus broke the Law, then there is no way he could be Messiah.  Remember, "He who was without sin was made sin for us."  Breaking the Sabbath is a sin in accordance with the Torah.  Torah even says that anyone who comes claiming to be from God but does anything against Torah is false.  Jesus would not break his own Law.  Jesus did break with unnecessary Sabbath traditions, but never the Law.  He was showing the spirit with which the Sabbath was given, not abolishing it.


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## Ms.Honey (May 24, 2008)

Crown said:


> *YES!*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


  He says it is an *example*. The example Jesus was showing us was that we aren't clean until were washed by the Word of God and not to think we were better than one another, that's true humility.


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## alexstin (May 24, 2008)

cheetarah1980 said:


> There is a lot in this thread to comment on, but this post stood out to me.
> 
> *Once again context is key.  In the first verse of this chapter Paul says to not judge one another in regards to DEBATABLE issues.  *




I have the feeling that if more Christians studied ancient Middle Eastern and Hebrew culture, geography, sociology, and history many theological debates wouldn't exist.[/QUOTE]

But we are debating it. That's just it, some people feel that they must set aside Sat as the sabbath and others don't. This along with many things in the body of Christ(tithing, pretrib, post-trib, denominations......) will be debated.


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## alexstin (May 24, 2008)

cheetarah1980 said:


> If Jesus broke the Law, then there is no way he could be Messiah.  Remember, "He who was without sin was made sin for us."  Breaking the Sabbath is a sin in accordance with the Torah.  Torah even says that anyone who comes claiming to be from God but does anything against Torah is false.  Jesus would not break his own Law.  Jesus did break with unnecessary Sabbath traditions, but never the Law. * He was showing the spirit with which the Sabbath was given, not abolishing it*.



And what was the spirit by which it was given? Natural law always supercedes written law. Since these laws came into affect after the fall, what was the original intent? We know that God sanctified the seventh day since He rested from His creation work but since then He is ever working. Would love to hear your thoughts.

Also, any references for cultural books about biblical times would be appreciated. I have a few but am always interested in more.


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## cheetarah1980 (May 24, 2008)

alexstin said:


> [/color]
> 
> I have the feeling that if more Christians studied ancient Middle Eastern and Hebrew culture, geography, sociology, and history many theological debates wouldn't exist.



But we are debating it. That's just it, some people feel that they must set aside Sat as the sabbath and others don't. This along with many things in the body of Christ(tithing, pretrib, post-trib, denominations......) will be debated.[/quote]
Yes, we are debating it now.  But you can't apply this debatable issue to that particular passage when the issue didn't exist at his time.   That's what I mean when I say that verse in Romans 14 is taken out of context because it does NOT apply to this particular case.  It's talking about an entirely different issue.

It's like applying the passage when Jesus says "it's what comes out of the mouth that makes someone unclean, not what they put in," to koshrat laws when the passage isn't even talking about food, but hand washing.  You can't take one line out of an entire chapter or book and apply it to all types of cases.  I see tend to see that a lot in contemporary Christianity.


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## Ms.Honey (May 25, 2008)

We are wayyy off topic. 
  I have found that most if not all Christian religions that focus on performing acts of the law and not the spirit of the law do not believe that the baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in tongues aren't for Christians today but has passed away. I think that's behind the debates that goes on here. The believers versus the non-believers.
  And as far as debating, it's pointless. Nothing gets resolved. If you're right let the Lord deal with the other. Nothing about the gospel is up for debate. Paul said let us put the bickering aside. It's elementary Christianity. 
  If the Lord told YOU to join a church that focuses on the Sabbath, washing feet etc. then do it. If He told YOU to join a church that believes that the baptism with the Holy Ghost is for us know as well as then then do that. But I admonish everyone to do this. Don't do these things because YOU think it's the right way or that it makes more sense to you or you read this etc. Don't rely on your own understanding. Ask the Lord to show YOU what to do. If you know Him what's the harm in asking Him. Who's infalliable you, your organization or Jesus? I know some won't pray because you already know you're right because you've studied it and your church has blah,blah,blah about it and you'll continue to argue over the Word but ask yourself why you won't ask Him. Are you so wise that you don't need His counsel? Remember that we answer to Jesus in the end. He's going to hold us accountable for what WE have done. My church said blah,blah,blah and I studied and read and thought you meant blah, blah, blah ain't gonna cut it. He's gonna ask why didn't you seek *HIS* face. Why didn't you ask *HIM.* If we claim that we want to please Him doesn't it make since to ask *Him* how to do and not your church? He will judge us as individuals, not as a group.
 We need to stop being so puffed up and prideful because that's what it is, thinking everyone's wrong but my church and let Jesus decide who is or isn't. It's shameful and gives place to the devil. We're so right all of the time we can't even hear from Jesus for our own benefit anymore. We don't know because we really don't care to know, we'd rather be right than righteous in His sight.


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## divya (May 25, 2008)

^^^^

Spiritual discussion and study is healthy.  It's important not to label it as being prideful and puffed up or supposedly focused on performing acts of the law. It's important not to make assumptions as to people's relationship with Christians and whether or not people are constantly looking from guidance from the Lord.  As Christians, we really should be focus on loving God and living up to the light that we have.  We have to keep searching and sharing what we have found. Jesus has set that example.  Let's be careful not to discourage people in discussion and study. That's a big reason why we have the Christian forum!


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## Ms.Honey (May 25, 2008)

Discussion is one thing debating is another. Nothing gets resolved. It's pointless


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## MrsQueeny (May 26, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> Discussion is one thing debating is another. Nothing gets resolved. It's pointless



My Pastor spoke yesterday at an ordination and the topic was "Ask God." He spoke about David and when he had to go fight in Keilah. Before he did anything, he inquired of the Lord and God always answered.  This is what kills me about Christians in general. Folks are so quick to say, "well God didn't tell you that (I had this said to me on this very board )" or "I believe God wants you to.." when they don't know what God has told that person. Just because He didn't tell you doesn't mean He didn't tell them.  Or others simply believe what other Christians have to say and follow them, and then hit a wall and ask God why.  God has His own path for each of us.  He is a loving God and won't lead us astray.  If you ASK Him, He will answer you.  As stubborn as I am, I listen to the Lord, *PERIOD*.  I don't try to prove it to others. If they believe I am wrong, them let them as long as God says I am right.  

I know when I was called to ministry, I struggled. I listened to folks who tried to say this about women minister and that.  Finally I stopped and just pray to God. You know what he said? The Lord told me, "I CALLED YOU, not them!!!" That was all I needed and I never looked back. I tell folks if you think I am wrong and want to help me, then pray for me.  Until God tells me otherwise, I keep it moving and do what I am called to do. 

I love those in leadership roles and I respect them but God is the ultimate authority.  One of the reasons why I love my Pastor so much is because he tells us to ask and inquire of the Lord in all we do.  It is human nature to be right and some always like to prove others wrong so they can feel good about themselves and how they are living. I just don't have time for a lot of it.  I am about God's business EVERYDAY!!!!!  So if you know what thus says the Lord for you and your life, don't worry about folks who don't have a heaven or a hell to put you in.  I know I don't. 

I love all of you ladies and I thank God for each of you. It is my prayer that when we all see the Lord He will say, "Well done!!" Q


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## Ms.Honey (May 26, 2008)

Amen Queeny. God made the gospel is so simple to follow but people want to make it so legalistic to keep others from seeing Jesus. He is not the author of confusion and that's what these religious debates are. Just ask God. Simple.


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## divya (May 26, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> Discussion is one thing debating is another. Nothing gets resolved. It's pointless



Well, I view this to be discussion. The benefit is searching the Word for better understanding. Maybe some get nothing out of it this discussion, so I'm sure they probably did not participate.   We're all selective as to the threads we are interested in.


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## cheetarah1980 (May 26, 2008)

Queeny and Honey.  You're both right.  God is NOT the author of confusion and if this discussion is turning into more of a debate and a confusing mess than a time to bring new ideas to others then it's pointless.  

For me this discussion has been fruitful.  I think it forces us to at least examine points of theology in ways we may not have seen before.  Even if it doesn't change what we believe, it can at the very least reinforce why we believe the way we do.  But in our walk with Christ if our theology is the same as it always has been, then are we growing?  Our view of who God is and our understanding of His word should always grow and change.

While I agree that we must inquire of God about how he wants us to walk (live out the minsitry he gives us), I think the reason that there are so many points of theological differences is because people think "God told me" something He never really did.  He may give us different applications in how we apply his commands, but he wouldn't give us totally different commands.  I can't say who's right and who's wrong about the issues we've discussed in this thread.  But I do believe that answers are there to be found if we truly seek them.


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## MrsQueeny (May 26, 2008)

cheetarah1980 said:


> Queeny and Honey.  You're both right.  God is NOT the author of confusion and if this discussion is turning into more of a debate and a confusing mess than a time to bring new ideas to others then it's pointless.
> 
> For me this discussion has been fruitful.  I think it forces us to at least examine points of theology in ways we may not have seen before.  Even if it doesn't change what we believe, it can at the very least reinforce why we believe the way we do.  But in our walk with Christ if our theology is the same as it always has been, then are we growing?  Our view of who God is and our understanding of His word should always grow and change.
> 
> While I agree that we must inquire of God about how he wants us to walk (live out the minsitry he gives us), I think the reason that there are so many points of theological differences is because people think "God told me" something He never really did.  He may give us different applications in how we apply his commands, but he wouldn't give us totally different commands. * I can't say who's right and who's wrong about the issues* we've discussed in this thread.  But I do believe that answers are there to be found if we truly seek them.



But you see that happens a lot even on this board. I once read a thread where someone basically was sending folks to hell for not doing what "they" thought was of God.  I agree that some people say God told me when He didn't. But I am speaking to those who know God's voice and know when He is speaking and I encourage those who don't to spend time in His presence so you too when know when He is speaking to you.  I do believe God gives people different commands depending on the situation. For one He may say flee because they are not prepared to fight, for others He may tell them to stay because He is going to protect them and give them the victory.  His ways are not our ways. 

We all need to have our own personal relationship with Him.  I don't spend my time defending what God has told me because He is in charge.  What God wants is for us to accept Him, flee from sin, study His word, obey Him, and bring others to Him.  If we all do that, we are already on the right path and He will work everything else out along the way. Q


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## Ms.Honey (May 26, 2008)

divya said:


> Well, I view this to be discussion. The benefit is searching the Word for better understanding. Maybe some get nothing out of it this discussion, so I'm sure they probably did not participate. We're all selective as to the threads we are interested in.


 
 Divya be honest. Do you think you can learn more about God from others experiences with Him that aren't part of your organization? Do you consider others that don't practice Christianity the way you do as Christian? Is it your intent to learn more about Jesus from your fellow Christians that aren't part of your organization and share with us as equals or is it your intent to convert us heathens who can't be saved people because we don't do what you do? 
  I think everyone myself included needs to be honest about our true intents here. I want to share what I know and I don't believe that you have to be part of my organization to know Jesus, be right with Him here on earth and go to heaven. Anyone else?


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## MrsQueeny (May 26, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> Divya be honest. Do you think you can learn more about God from others experiences with Him that aren't part of your organization? Do you consider others that don't practice Christianity the way you do as Christian? Is it your intent to learn more about Jesus from your fellow Christians that aren't part of your organization and share with us as equals or is it your intent to convert us heathens who can't be saved people because we don't do what you do?
> I think everyone myself included needs to be honest about our true intents here. *I want to share what I know and I don't believe that you have to be part of my organization to know Jesus, be right with Him here on earth and go to heaven. Anyone else?*



Raises hand. That is why I am here. I am not going to judge someone or assume they are going to hell because they don't worship like I do. I want us to all know God for ourselves and make it to heaven no matter who you are. Q


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## divya (May 26, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> Divya be honest. Do you think you can learn more about God from others experiences with Him that aren't part of your organization? Do you consider others that don't practice Christianity the way you do as Christian? Is it your intent to learn more about Jesus from your fellow Christians that aren't part of your organization and share with us as equals or is it your intent to convert us heathens who can't be saved people because we don't do what you do?
> 
> I think everyone myself included needs to be honest about our true intents here. I want to share what I know and I don't believe that you have to be part of my organization to know Jesus, be right with Him here on earth and go to heaven. Anyone else?



Interesting. Why would you even feel the need to ask those questions? This makes me wonder what kind of notions some people have when they come into these forums and encounter people who have very different beliefs than they do - even within Christianity. Now you did respond to my initial responses to the OP in this thread and a discussion ensued. Does it bother you so much that we disagree? It really seems so from the types of questions you have asked here.

I come from a family with all different religions, not only Christianity. From Hindu, Shango, Rastafarian outside...to Catholic, Presbyterian, and Adventism within.   I can and do learn from all. There is nothing wrong with being strong in your faith, wanting to share, and to learn from the walk of others. I definitely have learned from fellow Christians and non-Christians and believe it or not, I believe there will be people of both groups in heaven. That's something I always express - here and beyond.

Honestly, are those questions actually directed at me or really a projection of your own feelings? I stated that thread has been helpful for me, so why would you doubt that?  This isn't the first time that you have made seemingly assumptive comments after a discussion or rather so-called denomination related comments. If you notice, that's where I bow out. It matters not to me what "denomination" you are within Christianity or whether you profess one at all. We can still discuss the Bible. But does the existence of some beliefs within Christianity really bother you or many some "organizations or denominations"? Even still, everyone within an "organization" doesn't necessarily agree. That's why I love Christianity because we live based on conviction by the Holy Spirit and we can share our beliefs with each other. And at the end of the day, what really matters is whether or not you are for Christ.


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## Ms.Honey (May 27, 2008)

divya said:


> ^^^^
> 
> Spiritual discussion and study is healthy. It's important not to label it as being prideful and puffed up or supposedly focused on performing acts of the law. *It's important not to make assumptions as to people's relationship with Christians and whether or not people are constantly looking from guidance from the Lord.* As Christians, we really should be focus on loving God and living up to the light that we have. We have to keep searching and sharing what we have found. Jesus has set that example. Let's be careful not to discourage people in discussion and study. That's a big reason why we have the Christian forum!


  This is what made me ask, the bolded, the way it was phased. I've noticed that while some folks haven't come out directly and said it it seems that some think that the rest of us aren't Christians which again is cool, whatever. I just find it disingenuous for someone to attempt to coddle others who they believe aren't really Christians and then proceed into recruit mode. That' seems to be when the discussions/debate begin. 
  You still didn't answer my question but I think I know. I can only make assumptions if someone isn't being direct. If you're not one of the aforementioned folks then no big deal right? I stated clearly what I believed no biggie and so did Queeny20 and if this thread is still opened I'm sure others will also. It's just something I've wondered about not intended to be offensive.


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## divya (May 27, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> This is what made me ask, the bolded, the way it was phased. I've noticed that while some folks haven't come out directly and said it it seems that some think that the rest of us aren't Christians which again is cool, whatever. I just find it disingenuous for someone to attempt to coddle others who they believe aren't really Christians and then proceed into recruit mode. That' seems to be when the discussions/debate begin.
> You still didn't answer my question but I think I know. I can only make assumptions if someone isn't being direct. If you're not one of the aforementioned folks then no big deal right? I stated clearly what I believed no biggie and so did Queeny20 and if this thread is still opened I'm sure others will also. It's just something I've wondered about not intended to be offensive.



Yes, I do believe it is important not to make assumptions as to relationships with other Christians, as well as with God. Where we are in our walk is something between ourselves and God. I've never thought that anyone in the Christian forum doesn't believe us all to be Christian. Neither do I see anyone in recruit mode. That just my view though. Those things simply don't occur to me at all. My focus is on "thus saith the Lord." Actually, I answered your questions, and shared my background as well. But if you don't really understand where I'm coming from that's alright...

Anyway, this thread somewhat came from the big homosexuality debate in off topic, and it dealt with our understandings on the law. It was meant to be a discussion, no? And I don't think we really veered far from that, if at all. I felt it was a great topic and discussion!


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## Ms.Honey (May 27, 2008)

divya said:


> Yes, I do believe it is important not to make assumptions as to relationships with other Christians, as well as with God. Where we are in our walk is something between ourselves and God. I've never thought that anyone in the Christian forum doesn't believe us all to be Christian. Neither do I see anyone in recruit mode. That just my view though. Those things simply don't occur to me at all. My focus is on "thus saith the Lord." Actually, I answered your questions, and shared my background as well. But if you don't really understand where I'm coming from that's alright...
> 
> Anyway, this thread somewhat came from the big homosexuality debate in off topic, and it dealt with our understandings on the law. It was meant to be a discussion, no? And I don't think we really veered far from that, if at all. I felt it was a great topic and discussion!


  Girl, we've veered, swirved and plummeted 100 yards off topic. Like I said some seem to do that and when it's a constant back and forth nothing gets resolved and folks get offensive then folks get offended and then it really hits the fan. Like I said just wondering. I've never been the type to care what folks believe about my walk so I don't trip off of them.
  I don't believe that everyone here thinks everyone on this forum are Christians, I know I don't but I don't tell them that but pray for their salvation and conversion instead. 
 O.K. That's my last hijacking post to this thread.


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## divya (May 27, 2008)

MSHONEY said:


> Girl, we've veered, swirved and plummeted 100 yards off topic. Like I said some seem to do that and when it's a constant back and forth nothing gets resolved and folks get offensive then folks get offended and then it really hits the fan. Like I said just wondering. I've never been the type to care what folks believe about my walk so I don't trip off of them.
> I don't believe that everyone here thinks everyone on this forum are Christians, I know I don't but I don't tell them that but pray for their salvation and conversion instead.
> O.K. That's my last hijacking post to this thread.



Ok, I understand. Maybe I just haven't participated in the Christian forum enough to see what you are referring to...with the exception of the whole Catholic debate. Well, now that I think about it, based on that alone, you are probably right. Anyway, thanks for the discussion. It really does help my faith personally. To me, what makes us Christian is our acceptance of Christ - period. Beyond that, it's a matter of personal study and conviction. Your approach is the correct one, we should be praying for each other constantly.

Have a good day!


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## dawn1980 (Jun 19, 2008)

We did an extensive study of Romans in 2006-2007. And Paul did indeed speak to homosexuality and it's depravity in God's eyes.  It's the beginning of Romans-- Rom. 1:24-26.  Paul is telling them how they have been blinded by their own "evil" desires .  The study opened my eyes to how we as people can become so used to our sin that it actually becomes alright in our own eyes and the more we give in to it the more blind God lets us become.  This is so dangerous because our hearts become hardened to the Word.  This study was an eye-opener for me because that is when I really started to pray for my eyes and ears and heart to be open to God's Word.  I was also questioning whether homosexuality was something that people are born as and if they were "going to hell" for it.  Of course I know that God will forgive us our sins if we repent and ask Him.  The operative work is "repent"--we have to let it go.


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## Crown (Jun 19, 2008)

dawn1980 said:


> We did an extensive study of Romans in 2006-2007. And Paul did indeed speak to homosexuality and it's depravity in God's eyes.  It's the beginning of Romans-- Rom. 1:24-26.  Paul is telling them how they have been blinded by their own "evil" desires .  The study opened my eyes to how we as people can become so used to our sin that it actually becomes alright in our own eyes and the more we give in to it the more blind God lets us become.  This is so dangerous because our hearts become hardened to the Word.  This study was an eye-opener for me because that is when I really started to pray for my eyes and ears and heart to be open to God's Word.  I was also questioning whether homosexuality was something that people are born as and if they were "going to hell" for it.  Of course I know that God will forgive us our sins if we repent and ask Him.  The operative work is "repent"--we have to let it go.



*Amen! Amen!*


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## topsyturvy86 (Feb 23, 2009)

Bumping this old thread! A very interesting and insightful read and covers the issues being discussed in the Sabbath thread.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Feb 23, 2009)

gone_fishing said:


> Okay, I'm having a problem with something.
> 
> It is often said that we are under the "new testament law" and that the laws in the Old Testament no longer apply.
> 
> ...


 
In case the first post got jacked...here goes again...darn!  But gentiles were never under Jewish law so the prohibition against eating pork didn't apply to them.  First century christians were Jews and there developed a schism between them.  In later times, gentiles entered the new Jewish sect of "christians" and things were changed.   Noachide (how Noah worshipped) laws apply to gentiles.

Regarding homosexuality, it's not a sin to be a homosexual.  It is a sin to commit sodomy between men.  The desire and orientation remains in the person but acting it out is the sin.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Feb 23, 2009)

Ms.Honey said:


> I ain't washing nobody's feet. That was done because they wore sandals and would step in dung because of all of the animals out and about. As a show of hospitality the host would wash their guests feet. It was a tradition. Jesus did it to teach us to do unto others as we would have Jesus do unto us.


 

LOLOL.  I went to Mass with a friend of mine and the priest was the first to wash feet in the little basin.  He then asked others to come forward.  I didn't because I had crusty ashy stank foot that day lololol!


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## cutiebe2 (Feb 23, 2009)

divya said:


> ^^^^
> 
> Spiritual discussion and study is healthy.  It's important not to label it as being prideful and puffed up or supposedly focused on performing acts of the law. It's important not to make assumptions as to people's relationship with Christians and whether or not people are constantly looking from guidance from the Lord.  As Christians, we really should be focus on loving God and living up to the light that we have.  We have to keep searching and sharing what we have found. Jesus has set that example.  Let's be careful not to discourage people in discussion and study. That's a big reason why we have the Christian forum!


To go further, it healthy to really look deep into the text. I am taking a class on the New Testament. You find out some things that will ruffle some people's feathers. We are actually studying the formation of the early Christian church now

If you really want to get into the NT, look into the lives of Paul, Peter, etc. As we learned, we do not have written text from Jesus himself. Its important to study about the people who wrote, their lives, point of view, in order to understand why they wrote the things they wrote

There are so many aspects to studying the NT but I will stop there


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