# Can You Lose Your Salvation?



## cocoberry10 (Dec 29, 2006)

Hi Ladies:

This topic has been on my mind a lot lately.  It's in reference to 2 areas of salvation.

1)  *If you become a saved (i.e. born again) believer, is it possible to lose this salvation, and if so, how?  *(Ex:  If I am baptized, and then I go live my life how I want, sinning without a sense of reality, can I still go to Heaven?)

2)  *Does a spouse's faith save the unbelieving spouse if the believing spouse dies first?*  (I know the bible refers to this in terms of a believing spouse being able to save their unbelieving spouse, but I am interested)

I hope these questions make sense!


----------



## 1god1 (Dec 30, 2006)

I probably shouldn't be replying...but.....from what i've learned...

1. An unbelieving spouse isn't saved by the believing spouse.  According to the word, you have to believe and work out salvation for yourself.   *Philippians 2:12*  Work it out with fear and trembling.  Plus I've never ever read where an unbeliever is covered by a believer for the sake of going to heaven.


2. Some folx believe "once saved, always saved"..or eternal security.  I don't think God leave you....you leave HIM.  If you can get saved, and then do whatever, what's the point? Doesn't there have to be a renewal of the mind?


----------



## length4me (Dec 30, 2006)

I believe salvation is a gift from God so in that sense we can't really lose it. I believe that if a person lives life as a carnal Christian then they never were really saved or have committed apostasy. I found this info on the web:

Why isn't our salvation eternally secured the moment we accept Jesus? When you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour, you are entering into a covenant relationship with Him. In Scripture we see God's promises for those who enter into this covenant as well as what He expects from man in order to uphold our part of the covenant. The key here is that it takes 2 to make and keep a covenant. Our salvation is not all on God (as we have seen above, there are conditions we have to meet) neither is it all on us (He gave His Son, He forgives when we repent...). Although God is faithful to always meet His part of the covenant, man is not always faithful. When we disregard our part of the covenant we have made with God, the covenant has been broken. 

Finally, we will leave you with the following Scripture from Hebrews 10:26-29:

"For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"


----------



## comike (Dec 30, 2006)

I agree with an earlier post that our salvation is a gift from God and it was given to us by His grace.  His grace continues forever and ever.  I've never found anything in the bible that states salvation can be lost for if that were the case you could say that His blood that was shed for our sake was inadequate.


----------



## cocoberry10 (Dec 30, 2006)

Thanks for the replies!


----------



## BabeinChrist (Dec 30, 2006)

comike said:
			
		

> I agree with an earlier post that our salvation is a gift from God and it was given to us by His grace.  His grace continues forever and ever.  I've never found anything in the bible that states salvation can be loss for if that were the case you could say that His blood that was shed for our sake was inadequate.



ITA---My Pastor talked about this in Bible Study, saying that you cannot lose your Salvation.  I am so glad of this fact, because I would have NO HOPE of getting into Heaven if this was a possibility.  Jesus talks about this in John, Chapter 10: 24-30:

24Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 
25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 
26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 
27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 
*28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 
29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 
30I and my Father are one*. 
31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.


----------



## alexstin (Dec 31, 2006)

I believe as Length4me stated that we do enter into a covenant with the Lord. God has agreed to give us a life that's abundant in Him and we have agreed to live a life of obedience and worship towards Him.

 We are commanded to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" Heb 2:12. Now why do we have to work out our salvation? There's a definite sacrifice on our part.

I don't believe you have to live in fear of losing your salvation but to think we can live anyway we want after we accept Him is contrary to scripture.


----------



## kbragg (Dec 31, 2006)

No man can pluck us out of His hand, but we can jump out, or in most cases never really be there in the first place (false conversion).


----------



## alexstin (Dec 31, 2006)

kbragg said:
			
		

> No man can pluck us out of His hand, *but we can jump out*, or in most cases never really be there in the first place (false conversion).




That struck me as so funny ! It's true, very true!


----------



## pebbles (Dec 31, 2006)

kbragg said:
			
		

> No man can pluck us out of His hand, but we can jump out, *or in most cases never really be there in the first place (false conversion*).


 
Bingo!!


----------



## comike (Dec 31, 2006)

I think Charles Stanley explained it nicely:

"If you believe that your salvation came about by anything other than simply believing in what Jesus Christ did for you on the cross, then you believe that your salvation was in some way related to your own will and to your own works. If you believe that your salvation is related to your will and your works, then you will believe that your will and your works can in some way "undo" or negate your salvation. 


On the other hand, if you believe that your salvation was based solely on what Jesus did for you and what the Holy Spirit has done in you, then you believe that your salvation was a sovereign work of God. Your part was simply to believe and receive what God provided and what God promised. The person who believes this must therefore conclude that since he did absolutely nothing to transform his old sin nature into a new spiritual nature, he cannot do anything to cause his new spiritual nature to revert to his old nature."

Again, to say that your salvation can be lost is to say that His blood was inadequate to save us from sin once and for all.


----------



## cocoberry10 (Dec 31, 2006)

Thanks for responses, you've given me a lot to think about!


----------



## kbragg (Jan 1, 2007)

comike said:
			
		

> I think Charles Stanley explained it nicely:
> 
> "If you believe that your salvation came about by anything other than simply believing in what Jesus Christ did for you on the cross, then you believe that your salvation was in some way related to your own will and to your own works. If you believe that your salvation is related to your will and your works, then you will believe that your will and your works can in some way "undo" or negate your salvation.
> 
> ...


 
I don't really agree with the second part. Yes, our Salvation is a gift of grace. BUT we have to keep it! We didn't do anything to get it, but we have to keep ourselves. Part of us having free will. We can willfully choose to walk away from God. You CAN give a gift back or in most cases - throw the gift away.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved *through faith*; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Notice the bolded part. Through FAITH. Faith is a choice. We have to believe. If we stop believing, which is shown by the fruit in our lives, then we are NOT saved. I believe God has grace with each of us, however He will not go against His own Word:

Rev. 21:8 But the *fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars,* shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that *no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater,* hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11  Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? *Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners,* shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11And such *were* some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. 

Ok, so the Word is very clear. Such WERE some of you. Meaning if someone continues in sin, they are no longer saved, if they were saved in the first place. The problem lies in the "new age Gospel" which preaches, "come to Jesus and have a wonderful life!" 

Check out this video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4253981354315335400&q=True+%26+False+Conversion it'll make it make more sense.

Can someone who rejects God and becomes an Atheist still go to Heaven? No. I believe that 80% of those who fall back are false converts, and 20% really were repentant, but they willfully choose death over life.


----------



## cocoberry10 (Jan 1, 2007)

kbragg said:
			
		

> *I don't really agree with the second part. Yes, our Salvation is a gift of grace. BUT we have to keep it! We didn't do anything to get it, but we have to keep ourselves. Part of us having free will. We can willfully choose to walk away from God. You CAN give a gift back or in most cases - throw the gift away.*
> Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved *through faith*; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
> 
> Notice the bolded part. Through FAITH. Faith is a choice. We have to believe. If we stop believing, which is shown by the fruit in our lives, then we are NOT saved. I believe God has grace with each of us, however He will not go against His own Word:
> ...




I agree with you, especially the bolded part!


----------



## comike (Jan 1, 2007)

So do I believe I have the power to thwart the purposes of God?  Once God has made up His mind He is going to do something, do you think you have the power to throw a wrench into the works and foul things up? To believe that a man or woman can lose his or her salvation is to believe that a human being can frustrate the eternal purpose of God. 

God has plans for all those who were dead in their trespasses and sins and have been made alive with Christ. To hold to a theology in which man can do something that throws him back into a state of spiritual deadness, thus denying God His predetermined purpose, is to embrace a system in which man is in the driver's seat and God is just a passenger.


----------



## kbragg (Jan 1, 2007)

comike said:
			
		

> So do I believe I have the power to thwart the purposes of God? Once God has made up His mind He is going to do something, do you think you have the power to throw a wrench into the works and foul things up? To believe that a man or woman can lose his or her salvation is to believe that a human being can frustrate the eternal purpose of God.
> 
> God has plans for all those who were dead in their trespasses and sins and have been made alive with Christ. To hold to a theology in which man can do something that throws him back into a state of spiritual deadness, thus denying God His predetermined purpose, is to embrace a system in which man is in the driver's seat and God is just a passenger.


 
But see, you are forgetting that God gave us free will. He wants us to willfully love Him, not force us to. Think of it this way, if your spouse cheated on you over and over, appologized once, and then went back to cheating, never repentant, could care less about you, are you going to force yourself on him? No. He has the free will just as God has gien to us. Solomon turned back. MANY of the most devout Atheists were former ministers. They denied God after supposerdly being saved for years. They live in sin. They're not repentant. Short of repenting on their death bed, can they go to heaven? Will God have un-repentant sinners in heaven? No. Read the scriptures I posted. They're very clear. Check out the video. Darwin, the father of evolution, a devout atheist and racist, was once an evangelist. He was decieved by the devil, turned away from God, and died in his sin. IMO he is NOT in Heaven. Guess we'll know when we get there. One thing is certain, read the whole New Testament, God's Word is clear. We are to keep ourselves upspotted from the world. I'm not talking about slipping up and being truly sorry, but willfully sinning and continuing in it. A friend of mine put it best, "Saved by Grace, Kept by Obidience." 

So the question remains, if someone can willingly sin, walk away from God, though they once really sincerely believed, can they go to heaven? Were they ever really saved?

Romans 8: 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, *who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.*

And the favorite: 

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever *believeth in him* should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Can you still be saved if you stop believing? See, that's where we come in. Read through Matthew. Jesus says over and over your FAITH has saved you, your FAITH has healed you. If someone stops having faith, stops believing and turns to a life of sin, can they go to Heaven?


----------



## kbragg (Jan 1, 2007)

So save space I will post the Bible study we did on this in another thread.  

ETA, to keep from having to post 100 pages of text LOL I saved it as PDF on my site, but still created the thread because I said I would lol: http://www.whoiskassandrabragg.com/Saved_by_Grace.pdf


----------



## upandcoming (Jan 1, 2007)

This is a really good question. I just came from a 5-day conference and I wish they had addressed this topic.


----------



## live2bgr8 (Jan 1, 2007)

Mark 16:16 says, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned." 

Acts15:11 says, "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus..."

Acts 16:30-33, has a detailed account of salvation.

From these verses, I gather: To be saved is to have one's mind renewed (totally altered) through recognizing God's grace and atonement (Jesus Christ powerful blood sacrifice). 

Then there is sanctification... Sanctification is separate from salvation...  Sanctification is a constant process in the Christian walk, where people trust God to empower them to strip sin out of their lives. I think a lot of people get the two confused...

God makes it perfectly clear throughout Scripture that a person can not love sin and love Him. If a person is made aware of his/her sin, yet they continue-- makes no attempt to part from it-- have they really believed?

Personally, I don't believe they have... Hence "false conversion" discussed earlier...

In summation, I interpret Scripture to say that once a person is *truly* saved by grace, they can not loose their Salvation.


----------



## Xavier (Jan 1, 2007)

WOW! I had a debate about this last night. I am not sure where I stand. I have been given scriptures to support both sides of the argument. I think that the important thing to remember is that if salvation can't be taken away that it does not give us a license to live any way we what(hince outside of God's will).


----------



## Xavier (Jan 1, 2007)

Remember that I don't know where I stand in this debate so just for the sake of getting a better understanding. For those who believe that it can be taken away which sin does this and how many sins does it take to lose your salvation, this was the question my pastor asked me. Also would that mean that if you lose you salvation, that you would have to be saved all over again? And if you believe this then how do you know if you are truely ever saved?  Just a thought...


----------



## Ms.Allyse (Jan 1, 2007)

WOW, I"m really upset that I've been seeing this thread and reading it as "Can you loose your Salavation?? " I was wondering WHY does she want to know that?? AND my mouse just HAPPENED TO slide over it lol and now i see...SO now i'm going to the top to read since it's actually worht reading lol!!(i'm slow!)


----------



## StrawberryQueen (Jan 1, 2007)

Ms.Allyse said:
			
		

> WOW, I"m really upset that I've been seeing this thread and reading it as "Can you loose your Salavation?? " I was wondering WHY does she want to know that?? AND my mouse just HAPPENED TO slide over it lol and now i see...SO now i'm going to the top to read since it's actually worht reading lol!!(i'm slow!)


I guess she wants to know for her own personal benefit.  Does it really matter?


			
				Ms.Allyse said:
			
		

> Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh please read what I said.. Seems like I'm not the only one with a slight reading problem.





			
				Ms.Allyse said:
			
		

> WOW, I"m really upset that I've been seeing this thread and reading it as "Can you loose your Salavation?? " *I was wondering WHY does she want to know that?? *AND my mouse just HAPPENED TO slide over it lol and now i see...SO now i'm going to the top to read since it's actually worht reading lol!!(i'm slow!)



This is what I was commenting on, not your spelling mistakes/grammatical errors.  Did I make this easy for you now?


----------



## Ms.Allyse (Jan 1, 2007)

StrawberryQueen said:
			
		

> I guess she wants to know for her own personal benefit. Does it really matter?


 
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh please read what I said.. Seems like I'm not the only one with a slight reading problem.


----------



## kbragg (Jan 1, 2007)

No offense to the OP, but what brought up that question? The reson I ask this is because a lot of times when people ask this type of question it's a bad sign. Again, not saying OP is looking for an excuse to sin, but it's the same kind of question as "How far can I go before I'm out of God's Will?" IMO these types of things should never cross a Christians mind as we should be striving to be MORe Christ-like and less like the world. WE should hate what He hates, which is sin. Why look for an excuse to do it in the first place? Again, not saying this is OP's motivation. For example, I was listening to the radio and a lady was contemplating suicide but she wanted to know if she'd still go to Heaven if she did. Not cool. Salvation is not a get out of Hell free card, but a covenant relationship with God that should be respected. If people really realized the magnitude of God, they'd stay as far from sin as possible. Just another side effect of the watered down gospel. Work out your own Salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING. It should be something we cling to, not something we manage on the side while we see how much sin we can squeeze in.

I don't know exactly "how many" sins it takes. It's a heart issue. I believe it's an usse of turning away, and not so much stumbling. Does that make sense? For example, if I am on the highway and a Semi jumps in front of me and it looks like I'm going to collide and the "s" word slips out, I don't believe that cost me my salvation if I am truly repentant of it. We do have an advocate with the Father and that is Jesus Christ. HOWEVER, if one day I decide to be a sinner again, every other word is a curse, I stop going to church, start sleeping around, drinking and doing drugs and don't have the slightest bit of remorse, I believe I'd be back on the "Highway To Hell" as the song goes. The sad thing is because of this watered down gospel, no one really understands the seriousness of sin. There are people in our churches who do this type of thing. True, they (me in the scenario) could've been a false convert, but I also could've been on fire for God. I believe if someone bears fruit they are not a false convert.

So  basically while I don't believe you'll go to Hell if you make a mistake today, the real question is, "Why would you even want to know how close you could get?"


----------



## kbragg (Jan 1, 2007)

Ms.Allyse said:
			
		

> Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh please read what I said.. Seems like I'm not the only one with a slight reading problem.


 
   

SQ, I think she thought "loose" as in "Woman thou art loosed" If so, that's really funny! Ms. Allyse, you really should get that dyslexia checked out!


----------



## Ms.Allyse (Jan 1, 2007)

kbragg said:
			
		

> SQ, I think she thought "loose" as in "Woman thou art loosed" If so, that's really funny! Ms. Allyse, you really should get that dyslexia checked out!


 
WOW!! ONE More to add to the short bus!!!!!!!!! 


That was a typo for me, I actually meant that i thought i read "Can you lose your salivation?" As in SALIVA as in CAN YOU LOOSE YOUR ABILITY TO SLOB!!!

BTW VERY INTERESTING ANSWERS!!! GOOD READ!!


----------



## length4me (Jan 1, 2007)

Obedience is the major component of keeping the gift (salvation) that you receive from God. Look at how God dealt with the children of Israel. Time after time they were disobedient. God finally poured out his judgement and they were marched off to Babylon with their hands over their heads. Salvation is a covenant agreement between two , God's people and God. Therefore, we must live a life of obedience to keep it. No, God is not going to take his gift back, we choose to tell him we don't want it everytime we do things our way and live outside of that covenant. The moment we become saved we are new creatures in Christ, we are Spirit beings and we have to walk in the Spirit. To willingly walk in the flesh and have no remorse is to tell God that you don't need a Savior. Just my thoughts.


----------



## live2bgr8 (Jan 2, 2007)

To other posters: I understand your concern for our sister, but I don't think we should jump to conclusions as to why she asked it. It seems like she may also have a concern for a person very close to her... OR maybe she just wanted to discuss it...

To OP: I didn't address the second part of your question, which was "*Does a spouse's faith save the unbelieving spouse if the believing spouse dies first?"*

Nor did I see any other answers... so here's a feeble attempt at answering, since I'm not sure:

I think you may be talking about 1 Corinthians 7:14, which talks about sanctification of an unbelieving wife or husband...

10 But to the married I give instructions, not  I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave  her husband 11 (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce  his wife. 12 But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce  her. 13 And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send  her husband away. *14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her  believing husband*; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.  Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us  to peace. 16 For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save  your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife? 

From what I gather, this passage of Scripture is really talking about why a believing spouse should not separate from or divorce an unbelieving one IF the unbeliving one wants to stay in the marriage. (see the passages before and after 14)

Again this verse talks about sanctification-- which is totally different from salvation. Salvation can only come when an *individual *chooses to believe that Jesus Christ died for her/his sins.


----------



## comike (Jan 2, 2007)

What further confirms my belief that once saved, always saved is Romans 8:37-39.

*38*_For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, _*39*_neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord._

It is Satan that seeks to distort God's truth and lead us astray but God has promised that nothing can separate us from Him.  God's desire is that we all be saved, we all have eternal life and I don't believe that He would allow Satan to lead a believer astray.


----------



## alexstin (Jan 2, 2007)

comike said:
			
		

> What further confirms my belief that once saved, always saved is Romans 8:37-39.
> 
> *38*_For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, _*39*_neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord._
> 
> It is Satan that seeks to distort God's truth and lead us astray but God has promised that nothing can separate us from Him.  God's desire is that we all be saved, we all have eternal life and I don't believe that He would allow Satan to lead a believer astray.



Satan led Adam and Eve astray. They enjoyed perfect fellowship with God but they chose to listen to the serpent instead of obeying God.  They knew what to do but chose not to do it.


----------



## comike (Jan 3, 2007)

alexstin said:
			
		

> Satan led Adam and Eve astray. They enjoyed perfect fellowship with God but they chose to listen to the serpent instead of obeying God. They knew what to do but chose not to do it.


 
That's correct but that was before Christ came to save us from our sins.  That's why we don't do the animal sacrifices for atonement that were described before Christ came.


----------



## alexstin (Jan 3, 2007)

Right, but the point was God allowed them to be led astray because of free will.  They chose death and so had to leave Eden. No different than today.

 The purpose for Christ coming was to restore what we lost in the Garden(our dominion over the earth and continual fellowship with God by His Spirit). Christ made a way for us to get back to that because that was always God's original intent. But just like Adam and Eve we can choose to obey or not.


----------



## Bublnbrnsuga (Jan 3, 2007)

length4me said:
			
		

> I believe salvation is a gift from God so in that sense we can't really lose it. *I believe that if a person lives life as a carnal Christian then they never were really saved or have committed apostasy.* I found this info on the web:
> 
> Why isn't our salvation eternally secured the moment we accept Jesus? When you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour, you are entering into a covenant relationship with Him. In Scripture we see God's promises for those who enter into this covenant as well as what He expects from man in order to uphold our part of the covenant. The key here is that it takes 2 to make and keep a covenant. Our salvation is not all on God (as we have seen above, there are conditions we have to meet) neither is it all on us (He gave His Son, He forgives when we repent...). Although God is faithful to always meet His part of the covenant, man is not always faithful. When we disregard our part of the covenant we have made with God, the covenant has been broken.
> 
> ...



This is actually scripture:

1 John 3:6 - No one who continues to sin has either seen or known Him.

We are all sinful by nature, but this scripture entails PURPOSEFULLY sinning.


----------



## brazenxvirtue (Jan 3, 2007)

My mom and I were just talking about this recently. Here's a verse I'd like to share:

Colossians 1:21-23
21. And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
22. in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight--
23. *IF* indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard...

And an even more direct verse, Hebrews 10:26-27 & 29
26. *For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins*,
27. but a certain fearful expectation of judgement, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries...

29. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?


I believe that God allows us to freely choose or to freely reject Him. But if we reject Him once His Holy Spirit has revealed the truth to us, it doesn't seem like He's under any obligation to continue to force Himself on us.


----------



## loolalooh (Jul 8, 2010)

Okay, this thread is already making me believe that one *can* lose salvation.  I was actually going to bring this verse into question:

_*Hebrews 6:4-6.*
“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.” _

Some say it refers solely to nonbelievers.  I interpret it as refering to believers and the "if they fall away" showing that they can lose their salvation.  After that, it is then "impossible to renew" ... to regain salvation.  However, there was another interpretation that true believers could not fall away.  I'm not sure which is correct.

Does anyone have more clarity about these verses?  I'll try to find more info later.


----------



## loolalooh (Jul 8, 2010)

HeChangedMyName said:


> Mark 3:29
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for finding these verses!  At the bolded: That would be my interpretation too.  I wonder why many of us are taught otherwise - that nothing could make us lose our salvation.  Could we be misinterpreting this Scripture or taking it out of context?  I wish I had more time to study the Bible. (I should make more time, rather.)


----------



## sidney (Jul 8, 2010)

loolalooh said:


> Okay, this thread is already making me believe that one *can* lose salvation. I was actually going to bring this verse into question:
> 
> _*Hebrews 6:4-6.*_
> _“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.” _
> ...


 

I would like to know this as well.  Is seems that people can fall away from the faith.  There is so much false teaching out there that you really have to search the scriptures for yourselves.  So many people fall away but they think they have eternal security.  When I get more time I am going to study this next.


----------



## sidney (Jul 8, 2010)

loolalooh said:


> Thanks for finding these verses! At the bolded: That would be my interpretation too. I wonder why many of us are taught otherwise - that nothing could make us lose our salvation. Could we be misinterpreting this Scripture or taking it out of context? I wish I had more time to study the Bible. (I should make more time, rather.)


 

Don't forget there are commentaries from theologians that can break down the context.   I also try to read several versions to get the meaning from that, I may read the english bible, niv, message, king james, etc.


----------



## loolalooh (Jul 8, 2010)

sidney said:


> I would like to know this as well. Is seems that people can fall away from the faith. *There is so much false teaching out there that you really have to search the scriptures for yourselves. So many people fall away but they think they have eternal security.* When I get more time I am going to study this next.


 
Very true indeed.



sidney said:


> Don't forget there are commentaries from theologians that can break down the context. I also try to read several versions to get the meaning from that, I may read the english bible, niv, message, king james, etc.


 
Thanks for the tip!  Let me know if you find anything concrete.


----------



## HeChangedMyName (Jul 8, 2010)

loolalooh said:


> Thanks for finding these verses! At the bolded: That would be my interpretation too. I wonder why many of us are taught otherwise - that nothing could make us lose our salvation. Could we be misinterpreting this Scripture or taking it out of context? I wish I had more time to study the Bible. (I should make more time, rather.)


 
Call me a conspiracy theorist. . .but I believe that the teaching that one can never lose salvation(no matter what) is just a a trick of the devil.  A slight of hand trick, if you would say.  

Because if you can never lose salvation then that would give people license to do whatever they wanted to do.  And that license would enable people to no ever stop things that are sinful because they'd start thinking that salvation is for everyone, regardless of their beliefs or actions.  And all that would lead to pushing out the necessity for the testimony of Jesus Christs Birth, Death, Resurrection, and Return.  And then you'd have people coming up with new doctrines---search for the doctrine of inclusion(just one example off the top of my head) its also refered to as universalism


The enemy is slick.  salvation is a gift and gifts can be revoked!  period.  point blank.  We have a covenant with God that we are to uphold our end of it.  If we don't, there WILL be repercussions.  Period point blank.  God has a plan for us, but if we jump ship, then we stray from His plan which includes our salvation.  No such thing as sorta-saved.  You are either saved or you are not and when you step off the path that God has laid out, you are off the path and subject to death--mentally, physically, spiritually, emotionally.


----------



## HeChangedMyName (Jul 8, 2010)

and then. . .the kicker with that blasphemous mess of inclusion states that only those who have tasted of the fruits of a relationship with Christ AND rejected God's grace will suffer eternal seperation---*I paraphrased, check it our yourself*

That is a hidden fear tactic to make people fear even getting into relationship with Jesus. 

Oooo, the devil just makes me mad!


----------



## loolalooh (Jul 8, 2010)

HeChangedMyName said:


> *Call me a conspiracy theorist. . .but I believe that the teaching that one can never lose salvation(no matter what) is just a a trick of the devil. A slight of hand trick, if you would say. *
> 
> Because if you can never lose salvation then that would give people license to do whatever they wanted to do. And that license would enable people to no ever stop things that are sinful because they'd start thinking that salvation is for everyone, regardless of their beliefs or actions. And all that would lead to pushing out the necessity for the testimony of Jesus Christs Birth, Death, Resurrection, and Return. And then you'd have people coming up with new doctrines---search for the doctrine of inclusion(just one example off the top of my head) its also refered to as universalism
> 
> ...


 
And it's sad that this teaching continues if it truly is false.  I've received this very teaching much of my life and then stumbled upon Hebrews 6 which made me question it.  Then I started attending a bible study group and the topic about salvation became the highlight.  The consensus was that it can never be lost.  I brought up what I had read but couldn't remember the verse or that it was Hebrews 6 for the life of me.  I couldn't remember the Mark and Matthew references either.  With that, I thought maybe I didn't know what I talking about ... so I continued believing the teaching.

This realization confirms to me yet again that we need to read, read, read the Word and know it well and confidently.  Even in the community of my bible study group (i.e., fellow saved believers), I was led to accept that salvation cannot be lost.  Will definitely read more Scripture concerning this topic.


----------



## JinaRicci (Jul 8, 2010)

It's a very dirty trick!  You can lose your salvation by the choices you make and see no need to repent because of this false sense of security.

I think for us to understand Hebrews 6, we have to go back to the previous chapter.  In Chapter 5, he is talking about believers young in the word requiring milk (the first principles) vs seasoned believers on meat. 

*12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.* 

So in Chapter 6, he goes on to to talk about those already past the first stages: 

*1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 

 2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. *

So once you're already enlightened and have been so close to God that you've tasted and seen that the Lord is good so much so that you can anticipate heaven: 

*4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 

5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, *

And IF you turn away from all of that, how will you be brought again to repentance?  What would now convince you like when you were first enlightened to repent?  

*6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. *

It didn't say that you could not be forgiven.  But someone like that renouncing God and all the promises after everything would be hard (no impossible) to bring to repentance because of their own guilt.  

I think about Judas who knew Jesus and was so close to all the miracles he performed yet gave up everything even the kingdom for a bit of money. In the end his guilt robbed him of everything. 

Now we know that with God all things are possible.  But what the apostle is talking about is repentance being impossible because of what it signifies to that man. 

It's like when Jesus said that it's impossible for a rich man to enter heaven.  Mark 10: 17-31.   But Jesus went on to say that it's easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye.  When asked who could possibly enter heaven, he replied: 

*27And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.*

Rich people will be in heaven, right. But in this case Jesus is talking about how much harder it would seem to that rich person when he considers all that he would have to give up.  To the rich person it would be impossible but not with God.


----------



## sidney (Jul 8, 2010)

Hey ladies, remember to throughly search the scriptures on this one.  I wouldn't rule out "one saved, always saved" just based on one scripture because you have to understand the context. 

Here is a page with scriptures to support your the idea that you can fall away from the faith. http://www.truthablaze.com/osasrefuted.html 
But I'm wondering, who are these people who are falling away.  Could it be that they only 'believed' in God but truly didn't know him. 

But then there are these scriptures:

John 3:15-18 says about Christ: “The Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.”


Phillipians 1:6
Being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Ephesianns 2:9 
Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it

*So if people fall away from the faith, wouln't salvation be based on works then, which is contrary to the bible?*


----------



## Crown (Jul 8, 2010)

Not so sure (about the quote)!
Rom.11 : 28As far as the gospel  is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but *as far as election is concerned*, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for * God's gifts and his call are irrevocable*.


> ...  salvation is a gift and gifts can be revoked!  period.  point blank.


   Please don’t confound salvation and reward. 
  1 Cor. 3.15 *If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.*

  I think the real point here is discernment and studying the Word to have a whole picture : reading articles is a supplement, you can go in one sense or the other if the person is a good writer and if you don’t know the Scriptures.

  The Bible said this, for example :

  Jn.10.27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 10.28 And *I give unto them eternal life*; *and they shall never perish*, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 10.29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and *no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand*.

Mc. 13.22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, *if it were possible*, even the elect.

  Ph. 2.13 For *it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure*.

  Salvation is a gift of GOD, you have eternal life or you don’t have eternal life, period. GOD is not an amateur.

You can seem to have it and don’t really have it.
  Mat. 22.14 For *many are called*, but *few are chosen*.
  Mat. 13.28 He said unto  them, *An enemy hath done this*. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou  then that we go and gather them up?    13.29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up  the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.    13.30 *Let both grow together until the harvest*:  and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together  first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the  wheat into my barn.
Rom. 8.9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. *Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his*.
  Mat. 7.23 And *then will I profess unto them, I never knew you*: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


  This article explains it better than what I could do (but, study the Bible for yourself with the Holy Spirit):
http://cnview.com/on_line_resources/once_saved.htm


----------



## comike (Jul 8, 2010)

If you can lose your salvation then what was the purpose of Jesus dying on the cross? What was the purpose of His atonement? That would mean we're back to square one. I've never read anywhere in the Bible where one can lose his salvation.  Reading the book of Romans revealed a lot to me about my salvation.  I think it's more of a trick of the devil to say that one isn't really saved...that there is no assurance.


----------



## loolalooh (Jul 8, 2010)

Here's a fraction of what my NLT Life Application says ...

_Hebrews 6:6: "This verse points to the danger of the Hebrew Christians' returning to Judaism and thus committing apostasy.  Some apply this verse today to superficial believers who renounce their Christianity or to unbelievers who come close to salvation and then turn away.  Either way, those who reject Christ will not be saved.  Christ died once for all ... However, the author does not indicate that his readers were in danger of the renouncing Christ (See 6:9).  He is warning against hardness of heart that would make repentance inconceivable for the sinner."_

*9 Dear friends, even though we are talking this way, we really don’t believe it applies to you. We are confident that you are meant for better things, things that come with salvation*.

I'll read the links Sidney and Crown posted as well and really try to understand this this weekend.  The Matthew and Mark verses still make me go hmm.  Thanks, ladies.  Til then.


----------



## loolalooh (Jul 8, 2010)

Sidney and Crown ... I've taken a peak at your links and I'm think I'm seeing what's happening ... It's very easy to remove Hebrews 6:4-6 and make it stand on its own ... but piece it together with the rest of the Scripture, and it takes on a different meaning ... will get back to this later after reading thoroughly.


----------



## LovingLady (Jul 8, 2010)

I don't think it is possible for *Christians* to lose their salvation. Just because you go to church and shout a few Amens, that doesn't make you a Christian, which means you don't have salvation. I find it next to impossible for a *Christian* to walk away from God after they truly know Him and what He has done for them. 

Matthew 7:18-27

18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.  19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.  
20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.  
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’  
23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

 The Wise and Foolish Builders

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.  
25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock.  
26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.  
27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”


----------



## loolalooh (Jul 8, 2010)

Okay, I can't stop reading.  Lol.

Believing does not equal salvation.  (Even the devil believes.)
So there may be people thinking they are saved but they are not.
Those are the ones that can fall away.
Those who are truly saved are incapable of falling away.  (It's just not in them to do this after being renewed.)

So it's not enough to say the "salvation prayer".  Salvation is actual change, rebirth.  (This will lead me into James, more reading there.)

That's what I'm getting so far.  I'll be back ...

Could it be that many believers miss actual salvation?


----------



## HeChangedMyName (Jul 8, 2010)

Abdijz said:


> I don't think it is possible for *Christians* to lose their salvation. Just because you go to church and shout a few Amens, that doesn't make you a Christian, which means you don't have salvation.* I find it next to impossible for a Christian to walk away from God after they truly know Him and what He has done for them. *
> 
> Matthew 7:18-27
> 
> ...




I sort of agree with the bolded.  For  me personally, I can't see myself turning away from my Heavenly Father.  But people do it all the time.  I do wonder though. . .were they every wholeheartedly "Christian"?  hmmmmm


----------



## loolalooh (Jul 8, 2010)

delete ... still reading.


----------



## joytimes10 (Jul 8, 2010)

I'd like to add a little to what's already been said.  When the work of salvation is complete in you, the inner man is transformed and in dwelt by the Holy Spirit.  Because of the new influence, the HS, you can no longer be indifferent to and unrepentant of your sins.  

When Jesus saved me, he forgave ALL my sins, present, past, and future.  However, when I hold on to or neglect to repent of any sins in my life, this puts me out of fellowship with God.  When I'm out of fellowship, I can't exact His perfect will for my life, I lose access to His blessings, and I suffer loss of eternal rewards.  These rewards are the ebb and flow, not my salvation.  I cannot loose my salvation because that would render the HS in me ineffective.  He is perfect hence, incapable of being ineffective.

This brings me the blasphemy of the HS.  This is why this sin is unforgivable.  If you eject the HS from dwelling w/in you by blasphemy and profane his Holy name, then you have separated yourself from God eternally and hence you loose your salvation.  Once it's lost, it cannot be regained.

One final word.... We have to remember that God judges the heart of man and thus it is only He who can determine ones true state of salvation.  Just because someone is living an ungodly life doesn't mean they are not saved.  What it means is that they are out of fellowship with God, subject to the curse of sin and all it's consequences.  The sad thing is that even when we restore fellowship with the Father, through repentance, we still have to reap the remaining consequences of deeds done while out of fellowship.  Thank God that He is gracious to restore some of what we loose because of our willfull disobedience.

My righteousness is as filthy rags, so I know I cannot "keep" myself saved.  It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boost" Eph 6:7.  I trust the work of the HS in me to keep me as a Bride adorned for her Husband.  This is my blessed hope.


----------



## momi (Jul 9, 2010)

I don't think so. How can you loose something that you had no power to gain yourself. 

I do believe that there are many who confess Christ but are not truly saved.  The Good Shepherd said He knows those who are His and no one can snatch them out of His hand.


----------



## Crown (Jul 9, 2010)

Eph. 4 : 30And do *not grieve the Holy Spirit* of God, with whom *you* *were sealed* for the day of redemption.

2Cor. 1: 21Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. *He* anointed us, 22*set his seal of ownership on us*, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2Tim. 2 : 19Nevertheless, *God's solid foundation stands firm*, sealed with this inscription: "*The Lord knows those who are his*," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."

  [FONT=&quot]Eph. 1: 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, *you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit*, 14*who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession*—to the praise of his glory.

If someone is not sealed, he can fall away.
But if you are sealed, how can you be out?
You believe or you don't believe, but :
[/FONT]*He* *set his seal of ownership on us*! 2Cor. 1:22
You have one desire : please Him.
But in the flesh you have to be careful to not grieve His Holy Spirit.


----------



## HeChangedMyName (Jul 9, 2010)

^^^ momi, that's it right there.  Thanks.


----------



## loolalooh (Jul 9, 2010)

joytimes10 said:


> I'd like to add a little to what's already been said. When the work of salvation is complete in you, the inner man is transformed and in dwelt by the Holy Spirit. Because of the new influence, the HS, you can no longer be indifferent to and unrepentant of your sins.
> 
> When Jesus saved me, he forgave ALL my sins, present, past, and future. However, when I hold on to or neglect to repent of any sins in my life, this puts me out of fellowship with God. When I'm out of fellowship, I can't exact His perfect will for my life, I lose access to His blessings, and I suffer loss of eternal rewards. These rewards are the ebb and flow, not my salvation. I cannot loose my salvation because that would render the HS in me ineffective. He is perfect hence, incapable of being ineffective.
> 
> *This brings me the blasphemy of the HS. This is why this sin is unforgivable. If you eject the HS from dwelling w/in you by blasphemy and profane his Holy name, then you have separated yourself from God eternally and hence you loose your salvation. Once it's lost, it cannot be regained.*


 
I did some more reading (still reading) and I'm also convinced that one can lose one's salvation this way.  (Matthew 12). To "blasphemy the HS" is to knowingly attribute the works of the Spirit to the enemy.  Knowingly.  That's a big thing.  It's bigger than disobeying the Lord.  It's bigger to complaining to the Lord.  Etc.

I almost want to say that anyone who is truly saved couldn't possibly do this, but who knows.  I cannot speak for others who are saved.  What I can say is that I couldn't do this as someone who is saved.  Why would I look at a blessing or miracle, know that it is of the HS, and then tell others it's from the enemy instead?  *My first instinct, as someone who is saved, is to praise God for the blessing or miracle.*



joytimes10 said:


> One final word.... We have to remember that God judges the heart of man and thus it is only He who can determine ones true state of salvation. *Just because someone is living an ungodly life doesn't mean they are not saved. What it means is that they are out of fellowship with God, subject to the curse of sin and all it's consequences. The sad thing is that even when we restore fellowship with the Father, through repentance, we still have to reap the remaining consequences of deeds done while out of fellowship. Thank God that He is gracious to restore some of what we loose because of our willfull disobedience.*
> 
> My righteousness is as filthy rags, so I know I cannot "keep" myself saved. It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boost" Eph 6:7. I trust the work of the HS in me to keep me as a Bride adorned for her Husband. This is my blessed hope.


 
I had to bold this.  Thank you for stating this.  Another topic that was on my mind.


----------



## Poohbear (Jul 9, 2010)

What does it mean to "fall away"?

Do we "fall away" each time we commit a sin? Even if we commit the same sin? 

Some may say, "if you're remorseful for that sin." Well, Are we really remorseful and feel sorry for doing that sin if we keep doing it over and over again?

I still have a hang-up about sinfulness and salvation. Some say God forgives and forgets sin over and over again, while others say we must live holy, blameless, righteous, and pure and free of sin. I wish there was something clear about this.


----------



## Poohbear (Jul 9, 2010)

I have a question about blasphemy too...

Is diminishing faith and feelings of agnoticism considered blasphemy?


----------



## OhmyKimB (Jul 9, 2010)

comike said:


> If you can lose your salvation then what was the purpose of Jesus dying on the cross? What was the purpose of His atonement? That would mean we're back to square one. I've never read anywhere in the Bible where one can lose his salvation. Reading the book of Romans revealed a lot to me about my salvation. I think it's more of a trick of the devil to say that one isn't really saved...that there is no assurance.


 
I really feel as though you can *negate* your salvation. YOU can cause it to be untrue. It is not something that God does to us, but what we do to ourselves.


----------



## OhmyKimB (Jul 9, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> I have a question about blasphemy too...
> 
> Is diminishing faith and feelings of agnoticism considered blasphemy?


 

I'll look it up but I only blasphemy against the holy spirit it unforgiveable


----------



## loolalooh (Jul 9, 2010)

do over ...


----------



## loolalooh (Jul 9, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> I have a question about blasphemy too...
> 
> Is diminishing faith and feelings of agnoticism considered blasphemy?


 
No.  In the example of Matthews 12, "blasphemy the HS" appears to be _knowingly attributing the works of the Spirit to the enemy_.  It is this sin that is unforgiveable, according to Jesus...

"_*14* Then the *Pharisees went out and plotted against Him, how they might destroy Him.*_

_*A House Divided Cannot Stand*_
_ 
*22* Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the blind and[e] mute man both spoke and saw. *23* And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?” 
*24* *Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub,[f] the ruler of the demons.” 
25* But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. *26* If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? *27* *And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. **28* But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. *29* Or how can one enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. *30* *He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.* _

*The Unpardonable Sin*

_ 
*31* *“Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.* *32* Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but *whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. "*_


----------



## loolalooh (Jul 9, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> *What does it mean to "fall away"?*
> 
> *Do we "fall away" each time we commit a sin? Even if we commit the same sin? *
> 
> ...


 
I had to think about this ...

I looked at two translations of Hebrews 6: 

in NKJV - _"5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they *fall away*,* to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. "*_*

in NLT - "5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come—6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame."

I'm inclined to believe that "falling/turning away" is an actual "rejection/crucifying of Jesus".  Continual sinning can lead to "falling away" but one hasn't fallen away until one rejects Jesus.  For example, a child can continue disobeying the parent, but not "fall away" until the moment he/she rejects the parent.  How does one "reject" a parent?  Denounce any ties to them (e.g., divorce them in court).  I think "falling/turning away" is essentially cutting ties to God (e.g., converting from Christianity to atheism).

Hebrews 6:9 implies that one who is truly saved couldn't possibly do this.  It leads me to think that people who do convert were probably not really saved in the first place.  However, I'm not the one to make that call; it's just a thought.

I'm unable to answer the other questions at the moment.*


----------



## LovingLady (Jul 9, 2010)

loolalooh said:


> _*A House Divided Cannot Stand*_
> _
> *22* Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the blind and[e] mute man both spoke and saw. *23* And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”
> *24* *Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub,[f] the ruler of the demons.”
> 25* But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: _*“Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.*_*26* If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? *27* *And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. **28* But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. *29* Or how can one enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. *30* *He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.* _



I think that blasphemy against the spirit is something that Christians can not be forgiven for, but if your are a "Christian" then it would be forgiven. At the spiritual level and maturity that we are at, where we are "eating of the meat", we know the seriousness of what is going on around us and how important it is to have a strong relationship in Christ. When you have people that are, at best, "drinking of the milk" this means that they would not be at the level where they would know the information that we know. If they are still babies or even counterfeit Christians how can you blame them, they don't know better. 

Think about the relationship between God and satan. Correct me if I am wrong but at one point they were very close. Once satan tried to over throw God, blasphemy, he was thrown out of heaven. Satan and the demons were in a position where they should have known better. This is going back to what I underlined above. God can not forgive them because He wants people around (in His kingdom/family/team) that are going to be His tried and true followers. A house divided against itself can not stand.   

Going off of this I think it is possible for a Christian to lose their salvation if they commit blasphemy. It is a very slim chance of this happening and I can't imagine why any Christian would do this but it is possible. If 1/3 of heaven turned their back on God, sinfully humans can.     


I have a question for you ladies, below is the setting for the question. 

Location: battle field
North: Jesus and Christians (Group 1)
South: satan and followers (Group 2)
East: "Christians" (Group 3) 
West: Everyone else (Group 4) 

*Group 3 and 4 are the spectators cheering for their team. 

If you go from group 3 to 4 to 2, can you still get into group 1?


----------



## Poohbear (Jul 9, 2010)

Abdijz said:


> I think that blasphemy against the spirit is something that Christians can not be forgiven for, but if your are a "Christian" then it would be forgiven.


 Not trying to be rude but this sentence makes no sense whatsoever. erplexed


----------



## SweetTea (Jul 9, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> What does it mean to "fall away"?
> 
> Do we "fall away" each time we commit a sin? Even if we commit the same sin?
> 
> ...



These are all great points, Poohbear. I wonder about these things a lot myself. I've always been a believer, but there have been times when my relationship with God was lukewarm at best. Not for any particular reason...it's just something that happens. But I've come to the conclusion that if you have salvation, it can't be taken away, but _you_ may give it back. I think giving it back would mean purposely sinning because "God will forgive you" or deciding you don't believe in God anymore. Everyone sins. To sin is to be human. If we didn't sin, or had the ability not to sin, Jesus would not have had to pay for our sins. At the end of the day, we are only human. Some people struggle with certain things more than others. God knows our struggles and I don't believe He would punish us for them, only ask that we seek His help and forgiveness. If the only way to Heaven was for us to live a perfectly sin-free life, no one would be going.erplexed


----------



## Sharpened (Jul 9, 2010)

Maybe the focus should be on whether we are on the narrow path with the Holy Spirit as our Guide. I am not worried about losing salvation; I am trying to get my spirit purified, a daily fight.


----------



## loolalooh (Jul 9, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> *Some may say, "if you're remorseful for that sin." Well, Are we really remorseful and feel sorry for doing that sin if we keep doing it over and over again?*
> 
> I still have a hang-up about sinfulness and salvation. Some say God forgives and forgets sin over and over again, while others say we must live holy, blameless, righteous, and pure and free of sin. I wish there was something clear about this.



This is a really good question, and I hope others chime in.

My understanding is that perpetually doing a particular sin is a form of spiritual bondage.  That's a whole other topic that I want to read about eventually; I don't know too much about it except what I've heard from others.  I believe that when in spiritual bondage, one may be remorseful at first but in time the sin is so much a "habit" that it becomes natural.  Superficial believers can come under this, particularly if they don't know about renewing their mind, killing the flesh, and absorbing the Word constantly.  

_"Our Father, give us this day our daily bread" ..._

I don't think that "mature" believers can come under sinful spiritual bondage.

-------

I do believe "God forgives sin over and over again".  It reminds me of this verse:

*Matthew 18*
_21 Then Peter came to him and asked, “Lord, how often should I forgive someone who sins against me? Seven times?”
22 “No, not seven times,” Jesus replied, “but *seventy times seven*!" _(NLT)

However, He does not intend for us to use salvation as an excuse to live in sin.


----------



## loolalooh (Jul 9, 2010)

Abdijz said:


> I think that blasphemy against the spirit is something that Christians can not be forgiven for, but if your are a "Christian" then it would be forgiven. At the spiritual level and maturity that we are at, where we are "eating of the meat", we know the seriousness of what is going on around us and how important it is to have a strong relationship in Christ. When you have people that are, at best, "drinking of the milk" this means that they would not be at the level where they would know the information that we know. If they are still babies or even counterfeit Christians how can you blame them, they don't know better.
> 
> Think about the relationship between God and satan. Correct me if I am wrong but at one point they were very close. Once satan tried to over throw God, blasphemy, he was thrown out of heaven. Satan and the demons were in a position where they should have known better. This is going back to what I underlined above. God can not forgive them because He wants people around (in His kingdom/family/team) that are going to be His tried and true followers. A house divided against itself can not stand.
> 
> ...



Hmm.  I have to think more on this one.


----------



## LovingLady (Jul 9, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Not trying to be rude but this sentence makes no sense whatsoever. erplexed



Are you talking about the fact that I quoted the word Christian? If that is the case, the reason why I quoted it is because I was referring to people who call themselves Christians but their actions are not aligned with the Word of God.


----------



## Sharpened (Jul 9, 2010)

Abdijz said:


> I have a question for you ladies, below is the setting for the question.
> 
> Location: battle field
> North: Jesus and Christians (Group 1)
> ...





> *Romans 9:15-16* For he said to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I  will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." [Exodus 33:19] So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, _but of God  that shows mercy_.





> *Revelation 3:20* [Jesus said,] "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock. If any man hear my voice, and  open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with  me."


In short, it is His choice, not ours.


----------



## Poohbear (Jul 10, 2010)

Abdijz said:


> Are you talking about the fact that I quoted the word Christian? If that is the case, the reason why I quoted it is because I was referring to *people who call themselves Christians but their actions are not aligned with the Word of God*.


 Thank you for clarifying.  Can you (or anyone else in this forum) explain this... I have seen and heard this bolded statement over and over about "people who call themselves Christians but their actions are not aligned with the Word of God"... 

What IS being aligned with the Word of God if every Christian, superficial or true, commits sins? Sin is an action not aligned with the Word of God.  How do you or any other Christian classify someone's actions as not being aligned with the Word of God? Is it certain actions that are your personal pet peeves? 

This is something I've noticed with my dad. He's quick to say a person isn't a Christian if they are not tithing, living together unmarried, a homosexual, or being a woman preacher... but he fails to look at himself when he gossips, talks bad about others, lusts, and is quick-tempered.


----------



## Poohbear (Jul 10, 2010)

Abdijz said:


> I have a question for you ladies, below is the setting for the question.
> 
> Location: battle field
> North: Jesus and Christians (Group 1)
> ...


I think one can go from group 2 to group 1.  Many people do that everyday. 

Don't we go back and forth from group 1 to group 2 when we commit sins???


----------



## Sharpened (Jul 10, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Thank you for clarifying.  Can you (or anyone else in this forum) explain this... I have seen and heard this bolded statement over and over about "people who call themselves Christians but their actions are not aligned with the Word of God"...
> 
> What IS being aligned with the Word of God if every Christian, superficial or true, commits sins? Sin is an action not aligned with the Word of God.  How do you or any other Christian classify someone's actions as not being aligned with the Word of God? Is it certain actions that are your personal pet peeves?


I do not use the phrase because people do not understand what, or rather _Who_ the Word of God is. _Jesus_ is the Word of God, not the Bible. We are to do as He did and what He said. He ended the contract of the salvation through actions by nailing Himself on the cross. It is really that simple! The adversary and his supporters own this world and want us to desire what we experience with our senses over hating this existence in favor of being purified for the next. 



Poohbear said:


> This is something I've noticed with my dad. He's quick to say a person isn't a Christian if they are not tithing, living together unmarried, a homosexual, or being a woman preacher... but he fails to look at himself when he gossips, talks bad about others, lusts, and is quick-tempered.


Pray for Him. Pray constantly for a way out with all humility and sincere tears; break your own heart if you have to.


----------



## Poohbear (Jul 10, 2010)

Nymphe said:


> I do not use the phrase because people do not understand what, or rather _Who_ the Word of God is. _Jesus_ is the Word of God, not the Bible. We are to do as He did and what He said. He ended the contract of the salvation through actions by nailing Himself on the cross. It is really that simple! The adversary and his supporters own this world and want us to desire what we experience with our senses over hating this existence in favor of being purified for the next.
> 
> Pray for Him. Pray constantly for a way out with all humility and sincere tears; break your own heart if you have to.


Thanks for your response. I agree that the Word of God is _Jesus_, but wasn't Jesus' actions sinless? If everyone sins, wouldn't that mean no one's actions are aligned with Jesus?

Another question... do you believe the Bible is the word of God? If not, how do you see the Bible? I see the Bible as a book of general life guidance and a book of history to show us how the Christian religion came about.


----------



## Sharpened (Jul 10, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Thanks for your response. I agree that the Word of God is _Jesus_, but wasn't Jesus' actions sinless? If everyone sins, wouldn't that mean no one's actions are aligned with Jesus?


Ah, that is when grace comes in--time to get ourselves pure and strengthen our connection to the Father through the Holy Spirit. 



> Another question... do you believe the Bible is the word of God? If not, how do you see the Bible? I see the Bible as a book of general life guidance and a book of history to show us how the Christian religion came about.


God Himself is the Word of God; Jesus is the fleshly version. He had His actions recorded for our benefit, but not everything because we would never have time to ponder it all. The Bible is a tool, an instrument for communication from the Father, and a stepping stone to Him. Even Jesus gave all credit to Our Father, not the Torah, for His knowledge and mission.


----------



## Crown (Jul 10, 2010)

Maybe my belief is not popular, but for ME the Bible is not just a book of general life guidance and a book of history to show us how the Christian religion came about_._ The Bible is the revelation of the plan of God for us.
Yes, the Christ, God revealed in flesh, is the Word of God and the Bible is about the Word of God, from the beginning to the end :

Gen. 1.3 And *God said*…

Gen. 3.15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; *it shall bruise thy head*, and thou shalt bruise his heel. (Col. 2:15)

Deut. 6.4... 6.6 *And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: 6.7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children*…

Dan. 2.44 And in the days of these kings *shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed*: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, *and it shall stand for ever*. (Lu. 1:33)
 
Lu. 24.25 … 24.27 *And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself*.

*2Pet*. 1.16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were *eyewitnesses* of his majesty… 1.19 *We have also a more sure word of prophecy*; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 1.20 *Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation*. 1.21 *For the prophecy came* not in old time by the will of man: *but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost*.

Rev. 1.1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him… and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 1.2 Who bare *record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ*, and of all things that he saw.

Rev.  22.18 *For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things*, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 22.19 *And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy*, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 22.20 *He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen.* Even so, come, Lord Jesus. 22.21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

When a president signs a paper, this paper is not just a written sheet of paper : it is the word of Mr. the President, and even more : the word of a country, believing in it or not, agreeing with it or not.

How could we know what we know?…..
So the Scriptures, the Bible, give us the what (we need to know) about the who (is God) : Christ, the Word of God.


----------



## Poohbear (Jul 11, 2010)

@Crown, if the Bible is more than just a book of guidance and history, then why do you and every other Christian still sin? The Bible clearly speaks against sin. Why don't we keep ALL of His commandments? And please do not say "It's because of our sinful fleshly nature".  I thought we were suppose to be new creatures in Christ, and take off the old....


----------



## Crown (Jul 11, 2010)

loolalooh said:


> Okay, I can't stop reading.  Lol.
> 
> Believing does not equal salvation.  (Even the devil believes.)
> So there may be people thinking they are saved but they are not.
> ...





Poohbear said:


> @Crown, if the Bible is more than just a book of guidance and history, then *why do you and every other Christian still sin?* The Bible clearly speaks against sin. Why don't we keep ALL of His commandments? And please do not say "It's because of our sinful fleshly nature".  I thought we were suppose to be new creatures in Christ, and take off the old....



It is in process : the work of God.
I can look at my past, and I know there is progress and I am so thankful because I could not do this by myself, but the Spirit of Christ...
Praise the Lord!

Please, watch this :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cncEhCvrVgQ


----------



## Poohbear (Jul 12, 2010)

Crown said:


> It is in process : the work of God.
> I can look at my past, and I know there is progress and I am so thankful because I could not do this by myself, but the Spirit of Christ...
> Praise the Lord!
> 
> ...


Thanks Crown.

That youtube video you posted, I've seen and listened to before, along with a few more messages Paul Washer has delivered. I actually like his messages.

I guess I just hate to hear fellow Christians say stuff like "they ain't livin' right" or "they going to hell for what they did" or "they aren't true Christians because of [their particular sin]".  They have no room to talk because they in the same boat. They are not sinless themselves.


----------



## Crown (Jul 12, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Thanks Crown.
> 
> That youtube video you posted, I've seen and listened to before, along with a few more messages Paul Washer has delivered. I actually like his messages.
> 
> I guess I just hate to hear fellow Christians say stuff like "they ain't livin' right" or "they going to hell for what they did" or "they aren't true Christians because of [their particular sin]".  They have no room to talk because they in the same boat. They are not sinless themselves.



We are living in a time of confusion, seduction and disappointment.
The truth is in the Bible.
Take what is good, scriptural and can feed you, and leave the _not so good_ to its author.


----------

