# "If you Sin, you are NOT Saved"?



## Poohbear (Jan 18, 2010)

Is there any Christians here that believe that if you sin, that you are not saved?

Are there any Christians here that do not commit sins anymore after being saved? ...Not doing a sin every no and then, but being TOTALLY FREE FROM SIN like Jesus?

What do you think of these verses below?

* 1 John 3 (King James Version)*
*8*He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 
*9*Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.  *10*In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the  whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

There's more scriptures I could post but that's just one for now.

I ask these questions because I just recently met a woman who said she does not sin anymore. I even sent her a list of over 600 sins (http://www.wogim.org/sinlist.htm), and she said she doesn't do any of those sins and simply does not sin at all. I am very confused because I have this feeling that it's both possible and impossible at the same time.  She mentioned how we as Christians can't keep sinning, repenting, sinning, repenting over and over again and call ourselves truly saved believing Christians. Repentance is completely turning away from sin and is key for salvation, not just believing and having faith in Jesus.

And here's a link to a sermon from the Church of God in Joliet, Illinois. Go to the audio entitled "05. Pastor Hodges - A So Called Christian". It's 50 minutes long. The first time I listened to it, I was turned off because of the way he delievered the sermon, and didn't finish listening to it. This morning, I decided to listen to the whole thing and felt differently about it. Please take time to listen to it: http://jolietchurchofgod.org/300110187/html/audio/index.html


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## QueenNefi (Jan 18, 2010)

I read something a long time ago and it goes something like this: "The church is not a house for saints but a hospital for sinners". We all fall down... I think it's about what is in your heart and only God knows what is in your heart.


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## Uber (Jan 18, 2010)

Hmmm, quite interesting Poohbear.

It's hard but I do believe that there are some sins I won't do cos of the fear of God (by His special grace) . It'd be hard. But there are some things I can't get away from e.g ilde/bad thoughts. I ask for forgiveness. 

i always visualise my self at the holy gates, being asked by God why I committed certain sins. I'm gonna beg for forgiveness if I get the chance. I always hoped that'd be enough.


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## blazingthru (Jan 18, 2010)

The sins that held me capture I no longer do. You can live life and not sin. Which is the sin that once held you capture, things you are aware of that are sinful you never do again. Things that once you find out is sin you completely stop. There are some sins we are not aware of so everyday when you pray you ask the lord for forgiveness for the sins you were not aware of.  Plus we do not get to decided what is sin and what is not. The bible is clear on what is sinful. We have no excuse,  I read on here a lot of terrible things in the Christian forum that people justify is not sin. When it clearly is but because in their own mind they consider it not to be a sin they continue to do. I find that very odd.  I would hate to find myself outside of that great city becasue I refuse to adhere to the laws of God that is unchanging. I want to make it in whatever it takes, so when I discover that something is a new sin I leave it alone. God is sealing his people now. I truly want to be sealed. My friends and I are already making plans to what we going to do when we get there.
2 Corinthians 1:22
who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
2 Corinthians 1:21-23 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 1 (Whole Chapter) 
Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 1:12-14 (in Context) Ephesians 1 (Whole Chapter) 
Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.Ephesians 4:29-31 (in Context) Ephesians 4 (Whole Chapter) 
Revelation 5:1
[ The Book with Seven Seals ] I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals.
Revelation 5:1-3 (in Context) Revelation 5 (Whole Chapter) 
*Revelation 7:3
saying, " Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads."*Revelation 7:2-4 (in Context) Revelation 7 (Whole Chapter)  This is why its so important to study the bible not so much read, but study it. So you won't sin againts God.
This is one of my favorite scriptures, I get so excited everything I read it.  Johh heard the number, We can hear anything but what do we see? 
Revelation 7:4
*[ The 144,000 ] And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
Revelation 7:3-5 (in Context) Revelation 7  *
Revelation 7:9 (New American Standard Bible)

A Multitude from the Tribulation
9After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from (A)every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing (B)before the throne and (C)before the Lamb, clothed in (D)white robes, and (E)palm branches were in their hands; 
We are the last generation, We if we are faithful, if we trust if we give up this wordly life,if we stop sinning so that we can be sealed,  we will see Jesus


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## Poohbear (Jan 18, 2010)

blazingthru said:


> The sins that held me capture I no longer do. You can live life and not sin. Which is the sin that once held you capture, things you are aware of that are sinful you never do again. Things that once you find out is sin you completely stop. There are some sins we are not aware of so everyday when you pray you ask the lord for forgiveness for the sins you were not aware of. Plus we do not get to decided what is sin and what is not. The bible is clear on what is sinful. We have no excuse, I read on here a lot of terrible things in the Christian forum that people justify is not sin. When it clearly is but because in their own mind they consider it not to be a sin they continue to do. I find that very odd. I would hate to find myself outside of that great city becasue I refuse to adhere to the laws of God that is unchanging. I want to make it in whatever it takes, so when I discover that something is a new sin I leave it alone. God is sealing his people now. I truly want to be sealed. My friends and I are already making plans to what we going to do when we get there.


She said this too. She said only God can tell her if it's a sin or not, not man. She feels like worry and having evil thoughts are not sin. She felt like I was saying it's sin but God said it's sin too. Not just me. In the Bible, it says we should not worry or have evil thoughts, but she feels like God does not say they are sins in the Bible. To me, if God says "Do not" "Shall Not" "Cease" "Refrain from" etc. and you do the opposite, that's a sin.


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## blazingthru (Jan 18, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> She said this too. She said only God can tell her if it's a sin or not, not man. She feels like worry and having evil thoughts are not sin. She felt like I was saying it's sin but God said it's sin too. Not just me. In the Bible, it says we should not worry or have evil thoughts, but she feels like God does not say they are sins in the Bible. To me, if God says "Do not" "Shall Not" "Cease" "Refrain from" etc. and you do the opposite, that's a sin.


 
I agree with you.  I think People take God to lightly, me I am afraid I know that God is Just and I have no defense but for Jesus and so I know Jesus is fighting for me i will do all that I can to not sin and admit that I am a sinner and not worthy to be saved and be greatful for the grace of God that saves me. Her words sound like something that Satan would say. He is working extra hard now to convince people they are okay so they will not change what they are doing or even think its wrong.


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## Poohbear (Jan 18, 2010)

*Here are some more scriptures to reflect on. The captions in italics above the scriptures is not what I am saying but what the woman said these scriptures mean. I bolded a few scriptures that really stuck out to me:*

_Jesus came to save his people “from” their sins, not “in” their sins. _
Matthew 1:21

_Salvation gives us a power to cease from sin._
1 Peter 4:1-2

_Holiness is the core of God's Word._
1 Peter 1:15-16
Hebrews 12:14
Titus 2:11-12
*Romans 6:1-7, 12-13, 16-23*
*1 John 3:4-10
*Galatians 5:16-21
*1 Corinthians 6:9-11*
2 Corinthians 7:1


_Jesus commanded two different people to "sin no more". Christians should do the same._
*John 5:14-18*
*John 8:11*

_You can lose your salvation if you sin. The Bible teaches about backsliding:_ 
Jeremiah 3
Jeremiah 8
Hosea 4:16
*2 Peter 2:4-10, 14, 18-22*
Galatians 2:16-21
1 Corinthians 9:25-27 

_The Bible does not teach once saved always saved. _
*1 John 2:4-6* 

_Our conduct is to be holy. We are to be Christ-like, He who did not sin. _ 
1 Corinthians 15:34

_For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous If we love God we OBEY his commandments and laws; to love is to obey._ 
1 John 5:3 

_The Bible says be ye perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect. _
Matthew 5:48
Romans 12:2
Philippians 3:15
James 1:4

_Jesus came for the sinners, not righteous. Therefore, once Jesus saves you, you are no longer a sinner, you are righteous._
Mark 2:17 

_God foreknew man would fail and need a Savior. So His plan of salvation was predestinated or foreordained so that He could restore man to the sinless state He (God) intended. _
Romans 8:30

_We must always guard our thoughts and think on good._Isaiah 26:3

_There are many, many scriptures in the Old and New Testament about a perfect man. _
Deuteronomy 18:13
2 Samuel 22:33
1 King 8:61
Job 1:1,8
Psalm 37:37
Psalm 101:6
Isaiah 38:3

_They (Israel) now have the perfect Sacrifice, making it possible with His one time sacrifice of His life to be made them and us perfect._
Matthew 5:48
Luke 6:40
John 17:23
Romans 12:2
2 Corinthians 13:11
Ephesians 4:13
Philippians 3:15
Colossians 1:28
2 Timothy 3:17
Hebrews 7:19
Hebrews 12:23
Hebrews 13:21
James 1:4
1 Peter 5:10

_God will put His laws in our mind and write them in our hearts to live sinfree._
Hebrews 8:10

_If I sin, I am then not saved. I must do my first works (justification) again. _
Revelation 2:5


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## sidney (Jan 18, 2010)

Hi poohbear,
*
1 John 1:8-10 *
8 If we say we have no sin, we are fooling ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 But if we confess our sins, he will forgive our sins, because we can trust God to do what is right. He will cleanse us from all the wrongs we have done. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make God a liar, and we do not accept God's teaching

*1 John 1:5 *
God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all. 6 So if we say we have fellowship with God, but we continue living in darkness, we are liars and do not follow the truth
*
Romans 3:23*
Since all have sinned and continue to fall short of God's glory.
*
Isaiah 64:6*
All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags



So we all still sin, but are lives are not marked by a pattern of continual sin.  For example, a christian might tell a lie today, but his life won't be full of continuous lie telling.  Those who continually sin, but claim to be saved are like those Jesus refers to in the bible who have "a form of godliness, but deny the power therefof."  An encounter with God is powerful, and once it happens, the person is not the same.  There is a difference! When we get saved, the bible calls us "new creatures," and we put on the "new man."  We are told in the bible to "examine ourselves and see that we are of the faith." HTH


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## sidney (Jan 18, 2010)

Oh I forgot the most important one, one of my favorite scriptures:

*Romans 8:1*
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus

None of us can lose our salvation...the key is to make sure you are saved in the first place!  God has already performed the work.  We have a new nature, so we are new creatures.  A true christian will not be comfortable in sin, and eventually God will correct that person.  The bible says "he corrects the ones he loves." But those who are not saved, he will give them over to their reprobate mind.


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## Poohbear (Jan 18, 2010)

sidney said:


> Hi poohbear,
> 
> *1 John 1:8-10 *
> 8 If we say we have no sin, we are fooling ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 But if we confess our sins, he will forgive our sins, because we can trust God to do what is right. He will cleanse us from all the wrongs we have done. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make God a liar, and we do not accept God's teaching
> ...


 
Thank you sidney. But what is continual sin? Is it everyday? Is it once a week?  Are you saying if a Christian tells a lie, repents, and then tells a lie a year later, that's okay as long as he confesses that sin again and repents again? She was telling me that "sinning every once in a while," "continuing to sin", "continuing in sin", and "making a practice of sin" are all the same thing.

I sent her that scripture *1 John 1:8-10* and here was her response:

_John wrote this for the benefit of the Jew who said he didn't need to be born again, for the moral man that sees no need of being saved from sin, and for the self-righteous and virtuous individual. This scripture is dealing with us before we come to Christ. Actually when we examine the scripture in 1John 1:8, he is dealing with a carnal nature. Read verse 6 and 7. Verse 6 says, "If we have fellowship with him, (in other words call ourself a Christian) and walk in darkness,(live in sin) we lie, and do not the truth. So verse 8 cannot be interpreted that everybody sins regardless of whether they have been born again or not. 1 John 3:9,"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him; he cannot sin." As long as you have Christ dwelling within, you don't won't to sin. This doesn't mean you won't be tempted but thank God you won't have to yield to this temptation._

I also sent here the scripture *Matthew 18:21-22* where Jesus told Peter to forgive his brother seventy times seven. And I asked doesn't God forgive us over and over like that? And she said this:
_To continue sinning and asking God for forgiveness is presumptive. We are to repent of sin. So we can not keep sinning over and over. God's word does not teach this. This passage doesn't teach this. The Jews had a rule never to forgive more than three times. Jesus wanted to teach them that they should just be willing to forgive and not count. The Jews had hardened their hearts to their brother and to their enemies. Jesus was teaching them something contrary to what was their standard practice. He was teaching charity or love not vengence. A person who keeps sinining over and over is not trying to please God and they are not really sorry for sin. We are to sorry and contrite. Continual sinning doesn't not show this. _


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## lacreolegurl (Jan 18, 2010)

I totally disagree with the belief that if you sin you are not saved.  
We are HUMAN - and imperfect.  Everyone sins. The only perfect human was JESUS.
And honestly, I believe that anyone who thinks they are without sin...is committing one right there.
When I was in the world, I felt no conviction for the things I did.  Now, that I am part of the body of Christ, I can no longer continue to pursue, practice, engage in those things that held me in bondage previously...without conviction.  Some sins are harder than others to release...while I may not do xyz, I still have to pray, repent and ask for strength and guidance in not cussing at folks while I drive, or complaining, or worrying, among other things.  The act of repentance shouldn't mean to go out and keep doing stuff, but to make an determined effort to no longer do these things and to fill those spaces with the Word.
Anyway JMO.


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## sidney (Jan 18, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Thank you sidney. But what is continual sin? Is it everyday? Is it once a week? Are you saying if a Christian tells a lie, repents, and then tells a lie a year later, that's okay as long as he confesses that sin again and repents again? She was telling me that "sinning every once in a while," "continuing to sin", "continuing in sin", and "making a practice of sin" are all the same thing.
> 
> I sent her that scripture *1 John 1:8-10* and here was her response:
> 
> ...


 
I'll have to disagree with her poohbear.  Out of all the men and women in the bible, the only person I know of who was perfect was Enoch, and God took him with him.  And since your girlfriend, has not yet resurrected , I'm guessing she's probably not lived her christian life without sin.  I understand her interpretation of that particular scripture but we must view it in the whole context of the bible.  David was a 'man after God's own heart" yet he sinned with Bathsheba.  Paul, who wrote most of the new testament even said that he had not arrived, and did the that things he hated and didn't do the things he desired to do because of the sin the dwells in him  Romans 7:14-18.  The flesh causes all men to fail.  Do we have to fail, no...Christ proved that because like us he was born of a woman.  But unfortunately, most if not all of us fail to hide the word in our hearts, we fail to do what it tells us to do, or we don't pray when we are tempted because "the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."


It's a great thing that our salvation is not merely based off works, but his finished work on the Cross.  That's why mercy and grace are new every morning.  Christians have the freedom that other religions don't have...and that's that our salavtion is not based on our works.


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## sidney (Jan 18, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Thank you sidney. But what is continual sin? Is it everyday? Is it once a week? Are you saying if a Christian tells a lie, repents, and then tells a lie a year later, that's okay as long as he confesses that sin again and repents again? She was telling me that "sinning every once in a while," "continuing to sin", "continuing in sin", and "making a practice of sin" are all the same thing.


 
Oops, I almost missed this.  I'm actually not sure what the specifics are, but I think we should be careful not to deceive ourselves.  For example, if someone fornicates every two months, I'd say that is probably continual sin...we are not fooling God.  But I do know, that it has a lot to do with the heart.  As lacreole mentioned, someone who is saved has no desire to sin, and should they fall into it, they will not be comfortable in it.  They are not going to abuse the grace of God.  Instead, they will try to live more holy knowing that God is so merciful and graceful.  HTH


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## CoilyFields (Jan 18, 2010)

There are secret sins-the ones we commit without intending or knowing they are wrong, then there are presumptous sins-the ones we do intentionally. (this is in psalms)

Outside of that we have to remember that not only do we do acts of sin but we are seperated from God because of our sin NATURE. So as long as we live on this earth we have the PROCLIVITY to sin. That is why in the new convenant God said that he was now writing it in our minds and hearts...because it includes out thoughts and inclinations. 
What made Jesus able to bear our sins and redeem us was the fact that HE HAD NO SIN...he was born of a virgin and therefore the sin nature that WE ALL inherited from Adam was not passed along to him. So he had no sin nature nor did he do acts of sin...which made him perfect and sinless.  We have both a sin nature and do sins.  

So even if I havnt cussed anyone out or fornicated...my very existance in this flesh is an offense to a perfect and holy God and I STILL need the blood of Jesus to allow me into his presence.


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## BeautifulFlower (Jan 18, 2010)

Thank you for posting this is an interesting point to ponder. It definitely causes me to evaluate the sin in my life and how God thinks of me and my testimony of Jesus.

However, I do think it is impossible to say you are without sin. Our very flesh is full of sinful desires and we will have this body until the day we die. However, like many of the men in OT and NT, God expects us to live by faith, follow his commands, and live lives pleasing to him. However, WHEN (not if) we do fall, he is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us of unrighteousness. 

God is a just and righteous God but he is also a loving and forgiving God. We are all a work in progress. 

I believe to say YOU do not sin carries an air of self-righteous because Christianity is not about following rules. Its about a relationship with Jesus Christ and God giving you the mercy and grace to live free of sinful bondage.


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## Renovating (Jan 18, 2010)

prettyfaceANB said:


> Thank you for posting this is an interesting point to ponder. It definitely causes me to evaluate the sin in my life and how God thinks of me and my testimony of Jesus.
> 
> However, I do think it is impossible to say you are without sin. Our very flesh is full of sinful desires and we will have this body until the day we die. However, like many of the men in OT and NT, God expects us to live by faith, follow his commands, and live lives pleasing to him. However, WHEN (not if) we do fall, he is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us of unrighteousness.
> 
> ...


 

ITA and I have such difficulty comprehending when I hear people say the bolded.


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## CoilyFields (Jan 18, 2010)

There is a difference in being sinless and being blameless. We are expected to be blameless...


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## BeautifulFlower (Jan 19, 2010)

Paul, a man after Jesus' own heart. A man that wrote to and planted many churches. A man that traveled far and wide preaching the gospel. A man that remained single to be free to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ.....

However, even Paul sinned and said he IS (not was) the chief of sinners. 

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, *that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief *.“—I Tim. 1:15.


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## Renovating (Jan 19, 2010)

CoilyFields said:


> There is a difference in being sinless and being blameless. We are expected to be blameless...


 
I think this is an excellent point. CoilyFields, do you mind elaborating on the difference between the two?  Since I am my biggest critic, sometimes I'm unable to make the distinction.  TIA


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## Poohbear (Jan 19, 2010)

authenticitymanifesting said:


> I think this is an excellent point. CoilyFields, do you mind elaborating on the difference between the two? Since I am my biggest critic, sometimes I'm unable to make the distinction. TIA



I'm not CoilyFields, but here's the definitions I found:

*Sinless*: free from sin or without sin (any transgression of divine law)

*Blameless*: free from blame or not deserving blame, innocent, guiltless (no one can point the accusing finger at you)


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## Renovating (Jan 19, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> I'm not CoilyFields, but here's the definitions I found:
> 
> *Sinless*: free from sin or without sin (any transgression of divine law)
> 
> *Blameless*: free from blame or not deserving blame, *innocent*, *guiltless* (no one can point the accusing finger at you)


 
Thanks. This is exactly what I thought, but my confusion is rooted in fact that I don't fully understand how one can be innocent or guiltless w/o being sinless. Is it because God's grace and mercy remove the blame and guilt?


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## Poohbear (Jan 19, 2010)

sidney said:


> I'll have to disagree with her poohbear. Out of all the men and women in the bible, the only person I know of who was perfect was Enoch, and God took him with him. And since your girlfriend, has not yet resurrected , *I'm guessing she's probably not lived her christian life without sin.* I understand her interpretation of that particular scripture but we must view it in the whole context of the bible. David was a 'man after God's own heart" yet he sinned with Bathsheba. Paul, who wrote most of the new testament even said that he had not arrived, and did the that things he hated and didn't do the things he desired to do because of the sin the dwells in him Romans 7:14-18. The flesh causes all men to fail. Do we have to fail, no...Christ proved that because like us he was born of a woman. But unfortunately, most if not all of us fail to hide the word in our hearts, we fail to do what it tells us to do, or we don't pray when we are tempted because "the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."
> 
> 
> It's a great thing that our salvation is not merely based off works, but his finished work on the Cross. That's why mercy and grace are new every morning. Christians have the freedom that other religions don't have...and that's that our salavtion is not based on our works.


No, she used to sin when she was younger when she was raised under the Baptist denomination. She does not believe in once saved always saved. She said once she truly repented of her sins (turned completely away from sins that God revealed to her) and believed on Christ, that's when she was saved and received true salvation. She believes salvation is a daily walk, meaning daily resistance from the temptation of sin. We suffer for Christ by not yielding to temptation.  She doesn't believe in just works only, she believes in faith and works. She feels like she exercises her faith by refusing to give in to sin.


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## Poohbear (Jan 19, 2010)

authenticitymanifesting said:


> Thanks. This is exactly what I thought, but my confusion is rooted in fact that I don't fully understand how one can be innocent or guiltless w/o being sinless. Is it because God's grace and mercy remove the blame and guilt?


Well see, that what the woman was getting at... sinless can also mean "to do no wrong". To me, that would mean "sinless = perfect". Blameless has sometimes been interpreted to mean "perfect" in some instances.  Perfect means "complete and mature, without fault, etc."  Blameless can mean "without fault" too.


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## HeChangedMyName (Jan 19, 2010)

Jesus is the *ONLY* person to have ever walked this earth and been free from sin.

I don't care who the Christian is, how long they been in the church, how much they study their Word,  We ALL sin and fall short of the glory.  It may not be the type of sin that manifests itself in a way that others can see it, but everyone sins from time to time.  Maybe by coveting other peoples stuff, sexual sins by lusting after someone with their eyes, jealousy, envy, etc.  

What matters is that we all recognize our sins, repent of them, and ask forgiveness and try out hardest, not to fall into the same sins over and over.  Each person is different though and it may be a daily thing to repent from the same sin, until one is wholly commited to stopping the sin and truly turns it over to God too.


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## CoilyFields (Jan 19, 2010)

Being blameless has more to do with our heart intentions and our appearance before men.

In Luke 1:6 the bible describes Johns parents as being blameless. Below is the explanation of what that means from Matthew Henrys Commentary:

They were universal in their obedience; *not that they never did in any thing come short of their duty, but it was their constant care and endeavor to come up to it*. (4.) Herein, *though they were not sinless, yet they were blameless; nobody could charge them with any open scandalous sin*; they lived honestly and inoffensively, as ministers and their families are in a special manner concerned to do, that the ministry be not blamed in their blame.

So I see being blameless as not never falling into a pothole...but being constantly on the lookout for the potholes and studiously avoiding them as much as you can...especially the BIG ones you can see a mile away and could cause not only you to crash but a pile-up with others affecting their drive. And as you get closer in your walk with God (sanctification) your sight should improve exponentially and though you will not be sinless, you will be blameless.


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## Poohbear (Jan 19, 2010)

I don't know how else to say this, but I just feel like the Bible is contradicting itself:

_*1 John 1:8-10 (King James Version)*
*8* If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 
*9* If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 
*10* If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

*1 John 3:8-9 (King James Version)*
*8* He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 
*9* Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God._ 

1. If you sin, you're of the devil...If you're born of God, you don't sin and cannot sin. 

2. If you say you don't sin, you deceive yourself and you're a liar...

Those scriptures say nothing about how often you sin or about Christians' heart, or Christians being sinners or self-righteous, or anything that people interpret it to be.  It's almost saying there's no way to be born of God! Those verses simply do not make sense and has have my head spinning for a week since discovering these scriptures in the Bible.


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## CoilyFields (Jan 19, 2010)

Hey Poohbear,
This is kinda long but it is from the Matthew Henry Commentary and it explains 1 John 3:8-9



From the relation between the sinner and the devil, and thereupon from the design and office of the Lord Christ against the devil. 1. From the relation between the sinner and the devil. *As elsewhere sinners and saints are distinguished (though even saints are sinners largely so called), so to commit sin is here so to practise it as sinners do, that are distinguished from saints, to live under the power and dominion of it; and he who does so is of the devil; his sinful nature is inspired by, and agreeable and pleasing to, the devil; and he belongs to the party, and interest, and kingdom of the devil.* It is he that is the author and patron of sin, and has been a practitioner of it, a tempter and instigator to it, even from the beginning of the world. And thereupon we must see how he argues. 2. From the design and office of the Lord Christ against the  For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil, v. 8. The devil has designed and endeavoured to ruin the work of God in this world. The Son of God has undertaken the holy war against him. He came into our world, and was manifested in our flesh, that he might conquer him and dissolve his works. Sin will he loosen and dissolve more and more, till he has quite destroyed it. Let not us serve or indulge what the Son of God came to destroy.

VI. From the connection between regeneration and the relinquishment of sin: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin. To be born of God is to be inwardly renewed, and restored to a holy integrity or rectitude of nature by the power of the Spirit of God. Such a one committeth not sin, does not work iniquity nor practise disobedience, which is contrary to his new nature and the regenerate complexion of his spirit; for, as the apostle adds, his seed remaineth in him, either the word of God in its light and power remaineth in him (as 1 Pet. i. 23, Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever), or, that which is born of the Spirit is spirit; the spiritual seminal principle of holiness remaineth in him. Renewing grace is an abiding principle. Religion, in the spring of it, is not an art, an acquired dexterity and skill, but a new nature. And thereupon the consequence is the regenerate person cannot sin. *That he cannot commit an act of sin, I suppose no judicious interpreter understands. This would be contrary to ch. i. 9, where it is made our duty to confess our sins, and supposed that our privilege thereupon is to have our sins forgiven. He therefore cannot sin, in the sense in which the apostle says, he cannot commit sin. He cannot continue in the course and practice of sin. He cannot so sin as to denominate him a sinner in opposition to a saint or servant of God. Again, he cannot sin comparatively, as he did before he was born of God, and as others do that are not so. And the reason is because he is born of God,* which will amount to all this inhibition and impediment. 1. There is a light in his mind which shows him the evil and malignity of sin. 2. There is that bias upon his heart which disposes him to loathe and hate sin. 3. There is the spiritual seminal principle or disposition, that breaks the force and fulness of the sinful acts. They proceed not from such plenary power of corruption as they do in others, nor obtain that plenitude of heart, spirit, and consent, which they do in others. The spirit lusteth against the flesh. And therefore in respect to such sin it may be said, It is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. It is not reckoned the person's sin, in the gospel account, where the bent and frame of the mind and spirit are against it. Then, 4. There is a disposition for humiliation and repentance for sin, when it has been committed. He that is born of God cannot sin. Here we may call to mind the usual distinction of natural and moral impotency. The unregenerate person is morally unable for what is religiously good. The regenerate person is happily disabled for sin. There is a restraint, an embargo (as we may say), laid upon his sinning powers. It goes against him sedately and deliberately to sin. We usually say of a person of known integrity, "He cannot lie, he cannot cheat, and commit other enormities." How can I commit this great wickedness, and sin against God! Gen. xxxix. 9. And so those who persist in a sinful life sufficiently demonstrate that they are not born of God.

VII. From the discrimination between the children of God and the children of the devil. They have their distinct characters. In this the children of God are manifest and the children of the devil, v. 10. In the world (according to the old distinction) there are the seed of God and the seed of the serpent. Now the seed of the serpent is known by these two signatures:—1. By neglect of religion: Whosoever doeth not righteously (omits and disregards the rights and dues of God; for religion is but our righteousness towards God, or giving him his due, and whosoever does not conscientiously do this) is not of God, but, on the contrary, of the devil. The devil is the father of unrighteous or irreligious souls. And, 2. By hatred of fellow-christians: Neither he that loveth not his brother, v. 10. True Christians are to be loved for God's and Christ's sake. Those who so love them not, but despise, and hate, and persecute them, have the serpentine nature still abiding in them.

I hope that helps.  This comes from an online site i like to use when I dont have my commentary with me  http://www.ccel.org/ccel/henry/mhc.i.html


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## Poohbear (Jan 19, 2010)

Thanks CoilyFields, but...

Aren't there people who are claiming to be Saints (of Christ) who are committing sins as Sinners (of Satan) do??? 

For instance, let's take having premarital sex, lusting, and telling lies as examples. There are people who do these sins that say they are Saints. 

The frequency shouldn't be less and less, it should be stopped, correct? If they are truly born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever?

*Isn't sinning every once in awhile, continuing to sin, and practicing sin all the same thing!?*

I know we say "it's a matter of the heart" but if your heart is truly believes and puts all faith in Christ, wouldn't you give up that sin that your sinful nature loves, then decide to love and follow Christ?

Do you have the commentary for 1 John 1:8-10?


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## JinaRicci (Jan 19, 2010)

Poohbear- great discussion as always. 

Let's say you have a bad habit- like kicking the chair in front of you. You do it without realizing that you are hurting the person sitting in the chair. Once you find out, you are sorry- you ask forgiveness and try your best to stop kicking the chair. You may slip up sometimes because it was a habit and when you do, you apologize. But you are genuinely working to change because you acknowledge that it's wrong and you're sorry. 

This is different from continuing to kick the chair because you're really not sorry or purposely kicking the chair because your intent is to cause harm. If you have ever been the person sitting in the chair, you might be able to tell the difference from how often you're getting kicked. 

Human beings can see a change- the result of us being born again into God's family but only God knows our hearts. That's why only He is the judge of how many times we mess up or where our heart is focused. Only He sees the struggle that we go through to overcome our bad habits- the combined effort (His and ours) it takes to avoid kicking that chair just one less time.


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## Poohbear (Jan 19, 2010)

JinaRicci said:


> Poohbear- great discussion as always.
> 
> Let's say you have a bad habit- like kicking the chair in front of you. You do it without realizing that you are hurting the person sitting in the chair. Once you find out, you are sorry- you ask forgiveness and try your best to stop kicking the chair. You may slip up sometimes because it was a habit and when you do, you apologize. But you are genuinely working to change because you acknowledge that it's wrong and you're sorry.
> 
> ...


The thing is, if you are really truly sorry, you wouldn't kick that chair again. 

A lot of people will say certain sins they commit are habits or mistakes. But God takes sin seriously and clearly speaks against sin. It's written plain out in the bible.

Like for instance, a man has a wife, sleeps with another woman, and let's say he admits this to his wife without getting caught, apologizes, ask for forgiveness.  His wife forgives him. A year later, he sleeps with another woman. How can you say he was truly sorry (no matter how long he went without committing adultery again)? He wanted to do that. That's a deliberate action that he knew was wrong.

I know that case is more serious than someone kicking a chair, but people will sugarcoat sins into being mistakes and habits that we do every now and then.  How can we get around that?


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## Renovating (Jan 19, 2010)

JinaRicci said:


> Poohbear- great discussion as always.
> 
> Let's say you have a bad habit- like kicking the chair in front of you. You do it without realizing that you are hurting the person sitting in the chair. Once you find out, you are sorry- you ask forgiveness and try your best to stop kicking the chair. You may slip up sometimes because it was a habit and when you do, you apologize. But you are genuinely working to change because you acknowledge that it's wrong and you're sorry.
> 
> ...


 
That was a perfect metaphor, because when something is habit, we do it without thinking it through and it becomes "just something we do". 
Even if you are truly sorry for kicking the chair, since it's a habit, you could easily find yourself kicking it again, but you would make a conscious effort to stop.  Thanks. That made it clear for me.


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## Renovating (Jan 19, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> The thing is, if you are really truly sorry, you wouldn't kick that chair again.
> 
> A lot of people will say certain sins they commit are habits or mistakes. But God takes sin seriously and clearly speaks against sin. It's written plain out in the bible.
> 
> ...


 

I think that we all know that the sins we commit are wrong, but I think the confusion arises with sin because humans have a sin hierachy, whereas God sees sin as sin.  

What's high on your sin hierarchy may be low on someone else's and that's why sin hierarchies are dangerous. Placing one higher (more serious) than another makes it easy for someone to excuse their own, IMO.  

Yes, I lied but at least I didn't commit adultery.
Yes, I committed adultery, but at least I didn't kill anyone. 

 

I also wanted to add that it is possible that giving in to his sexual desires could have been a habit for him UNTIL, he decided to repent and try to live according to the word. 

***** Disclaimer: Poohbear, I am not trying to offend you in anyway, just adding to the discussion. Thanks.


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## Poohbear (Jan 19, 2010)

authenticitymanifesting said:


> I think that we all know that the sins we commit are wrong, but I think the confusion arises with sin because humans have a sin hierachy, whereas God sees sin as sin.
> 
> What's high on your sin hierarchy may be low on someone else's and that's why sin hierarchies are dangerous. Placing one higher (more serious) than another makes it easy for someone to excuse their own, IMO.
> 
> ...


I agree with you. I don't have a sin hierarchy either because all sin is against God. That's why I shared that example. I said that case is more serious because that's how it's perceived by most Christians. Me personally, I see all sin as the same whether you gossip or whether you rape someone.

What does it mean to "try to live according to the Word?" Doesn't that mean you "suffer from *not* committing sins that tempt you"?  "Trying" does not mean "giving in to sins every once in awhile".... erplexed


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## Poohbear (Jan 19, 2010)

Here is a few other points the woman has made to me. I'm paraphrasing what she said:

_A lot of people want to use our imperfection and human nature/body and being born into sin as an excuse to sin.

If we believe and have faith in Jesus, we are "perfect in spirit".

The reason why humans are not perfect is because of this example: Let's say you take a test and get answer a question incorrectly. That shows our human nature.  Just because we missed the answer on the test doesn't mean we sinned.

Being perfect in spirit means we no longer desire to sin and do not yield to temptation.

The purpose of Jesus coming to Earth as God in the flesh to dwell among us was to show us how to live as a human being without sin. He didn't come just to show his divinity and power. He was showing us how to live sinless in an evil world in a human body. _


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## Renovating (Jan 19, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> I agree with you. I don't have a sin hierarchy either because all sin is against God. That's why I shared that example. I said that case is more serious because that's how it's perceived by most Christians. Me personally, I see all sin as the same whether you gossip or whether you rape someone.
> 
> *What does it mean to "try to live according to the Word?"* Doesn't that mean you "suffer from *not* committing sins that tempt you"? "Trying" does not mean "giving in to sins every once in awhile".... erplexed


 

To me it means Phil 3:13-14: 
*13*Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, *14*I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.


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## CoilyFields (Jan 19, 2010)

We also have to remember that God refers to those Christians who are saved but live as sinners as backslidders. A backslidder is one who knows the redemption of God but chooses to practice sin.

I believe that practicing sin is making up in your mind that although you know what is right to do, you are still going to choose to do wrong repeatedly...as in a lifestyle of sin. Completely disregarding the word of God.  Now exactly how many TIMES a christian must do a sin for it to be considered practicing...i believe that that is strictly a heart matter and only God can judge because he knows our hearts.


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## Poohbear (Jan 20, 2010)

prettyfaceANB said:


> Thank you for posting this is an interesting point to ponder. It definitely causes me to evaluate the sin in my life and how God thinks of me and my testimony of Jesus.
> 
> However, I do think it is impossible to say you are without sin. *Our very flesh is full of sinful desires and we will have this body until the day we die.* However, like many of the men in OT and NT, God expects us to live by faith, follow his commands, and live lives pleasing to him. However, WHEN (not if) we do fall, he is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us of unrighteousness.
> 
> ...


She said if you truly believe in Jesus Christ and truly have the Word of God in your heart, you will have the power to resist your fleshly desires and not give in to temptation. She said in order to live free of sinful bondage, you must stop sinning.


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## Poohbear (Jan 20, 2010)

CoilyFields said:


> Being blameless has more to do with our heart intentions and our appearance before men.
> 
> In Luke 1:6 the bible describes Johns parents as being blameless. Below is the explanation of what that means from Matthew Henrys Commentary:
> 
> ...


Wouldn't the bolded part in the above quote mean "cautious" rather than "blameless"???


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## Poohbear (Jan 20, 2010)

CoilyFields said:


> We also have to remember that God refers to those Christians who are saved but live as sinners as backslidders. A backslidder is one who knows the redemption of God but chooses to practice sin.
> 
> I believe that practicing sin is making up in your mind that although you know what is right to do, you are still going to choose to do wrong repeatedly...as in a lifestyle of sin. Completely disregarding the word of God. Now exactly how many TIMES a christian must do a sin for it to be considered practicing...i believe that that is strictly a heart matter and only God can judge because he knows our hearts.


 
But are backsliders truly saved? Will God continue to grant mercy on the backslider? Check out this verse:

*Jeremiah 15:6*
*You have rejected me," declares the LORD. "You keep on backsliding. So I will lay hands on you and destroy you; I can no longer show compassion.
*


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## CoilyFields (Jan 20, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> But are backsliders truly saved? Will God continue to grant mercy on the backslider? Check out this verse:
> 
> *Jeremiah 15:6*
> *You have rejected me," declares the LORD. "You keep on backsliding. So I will lay hands on you and destroy you; I can no longer show compassion.*


 

*Passage Jeremiah 3:14:
*
   14Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

At this begining of Jeremiah he is pleading for his backslidden children to return to him.  In the verse you quoted it  he is now fed up with their *continuous* backslidding and will no longer have mercy. Him calling them his children signifies that they belong to him and turned away...meaning they were saved and backslid.  

The question that we cannot answer is how much backslidding/practicing sin does a person have to do in order to feel this kind of wrath from God. As I said before, I think that is something only God can judge and that it will apply individually according to our hearts.


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## Renovating (Jan 20, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> But are backsliders truly saved? *Will God continue to grant mercy on the backslider? *Check out this verse:
> 
> *Jeremiah 15:6*
> *You have rejected me," declares the LORD. "You keep on backsliding. So I will lay hands on you and destroy you; I can no longer show compassion.*


 

The book of Jeremiah is in the old testament. I've always thought the old testament was based on the law and works, whereas the new testament was based on God's mercy which endures FOREVER. So to the bolded, I say yes.


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## CoilyFields (Jan 20, 2010)

Poohbear said:


> Wouldn't the bolded part in the above quote mean "cautious" rather than "blameless"???


 

You can use the word cautious if you like, but the Bible uses blameless. I think in this context they mean essentially the same thing. To be on the lookout (or vigilant and sober as the word says) so that we do not practice sin nor do those things that will negatively affect the faith of those around us. 
 If you are being cautious that means that *in your heart* you truly want to do the right thing and *are taking the necessary* steps to ensure you do the right thing. Looking out for potholes...being a skilled enough driver to actually avoid them...then actually avoid them...then not taking that pothole-ridden road again. (Not like saying I wanna be sexually pure but Im going to spend the night at my boyfriends house-God knows our hearts lol)


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