# CHRISTIANITY AND SAVAGES



## 8HoursFromHome (Jul 24, 2010)

This is inspired by another thread...it got me thinking...
It was very recently brought to my attention that there are tribes of 'primitive' people who are encouraged/required to engage in male/male sexual activity.  In an article, it was stated that these (and other less extreme practices) are slowly dying because of the intereference of Christian evangelists/saviors.

*How do you feel about the imperialist attitudes of these Christian folk?*  I personally don't feel that our 'saved' society is any better off than non-saved people.  The only reason something like this turns our stomachs is because we were taught that it is wrong in OUR society.  There are some less extreme cultural differences that are/have been lost because of this need for Christians to assimilate these beautiful people.

From my perspective, cultures evolve exactly they way they NEED to to be able to survive their specific set of circumstances.  The sudden changes imposed upon them by outsiders ALWAYS leads to their extinction.  

Thoughts please...


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## luthiengirlie (Jul 24, 2010)

displacedcreole said:


> This is inspired by another thread...it got me thinking...
> It was very recently brought to my attention that there are tribes of 'primitive' people who are encouraged/required to engage in male/male sexual activity.  In an article, it was stated that these (and other less extreme practices) are slowly dying because of the intereference of Christian evangelists/saviors.
> 
> *How do you feel about the imperialist attitudes of these Christian folk?*  I personally don't feel that our 'saved' society is any better off than non-saved people.  The only reason something like this turns our stomachs is because we were taught that it is wrong in OUR society.  There are some less extreme cultural differences that are/have been lost because of this need for Christians to assimilate these beautiful people.
> ...




hmm... coming from a person who believes that the Book of Enoch is  the inspired Word of YHWH. my perspectives would probably be way way different and people would probably think it's out there
BUT it's an explosive topic and I'd like to see what my Christian sisters think.


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## 8HoursFromHome (Jul 24, 2010)

That's why I'm asking...


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## luthiengirlie (Jul 24, 2010)

My Christian sisters?


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## uniquely made (Jul 24, 2010)

I personally don't feel like Im better than anyone.  I just know who I believe in.  And I know where Im going.  Im not perfect.  I don't try to tell others how to live.  That's not my job.  Jesus reaches out to everyone.  BUt it's up to you to accept and believe in Him.  He doesn't force you.   There are no perfect Christians, everyone is sinful.  It's wrong to lump all Christians in one basket.  We need to be taken individually, just like any other group.  And trust me, everyone claiming to be Christian isn't really a Christian.

But after re-reading your post, can you explain how a culture can evolve from male/male sexual activity.


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## 8HoursFromHome (Jul 24, 2010)

I'm not lumping anyone together.  I'm asking other Christians how they feel about *these* particular groups of Christians behavior regarding their invasion of a non-Christian group for their (supposed) benefit.


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## 8HoursFromHome (Jul 24, 2010)

uniquely made said:


> I personally don't feel like Im better than anyone. I just know who I believe in. And I know where Im going. Im not perfect. I don't try to tell others how to live. That's not my job. Jesus reaches out to everyone. BUt it's up to you to accept and believe in Him. He doesn't force you. There are no perfect Christians, everyone is sinful. It's wrong to lump all Christians in one basket. We need to be taken individually, just like any other group. And trust me, everyone claiming to be Christian isn't really a Christian.
> 
> *But after re-reading your post, can you explain how a culture can evolve from male/male sexual activity*.


 
This here is a nono: whole different issue.  I think that tribe has evolved to do that (for whatever their reason is) NOT that the tribe has evolved FROM that.  Apparently there is still female/male interaction - they're STILL here.  Maybe it really does boost their potency, don't know, not a scientist. Here's a link to the article, sounds like you have your own set of questions - http://www.gettingit.com/article/56

From what I'm reading in your post, it sounds like you don't condone what these groups have done for many many years.  

I really don't get the vibe that Black American Christians have that imperialistic attitude.  I believe it's because Black American Christians sought religion as a savior and the European whites used it as a vehicle for oppression, destruction and whatever other evil thing they've done. 

Someone stop me here if I'm getting way off track...


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## Sharpened (Jul 24, 2010)

Feelings are irrelevant in the face of the Truth we are called to give. Those believers who attempt to force the world into always get the opposite effect of their goals, but refuse to see it. Why? It is God's job to save people, not ours; we are to proclaim His Truth and live contrary to the world.

Also, keep in mind one thing: no group has any monopoly on any aspect of human behavior. Do not let your opinion of religion blind you to the faults of others.

Would it surprise you that the elites who believe they own this world also practice this? Many of these people claim descendants from ancient, royal bloodlines and strive to keep it pure. Why are they now giving a platform to allow others to learn about it?


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## luthiengirlie (Jul 24, 2010)

Nymphe said:


> Feelings are irrelevant in the face of the Truth we are called to give. Those believers who attempt to force the world into always get the opposite effect of their goals, but refuse to see it. Why? It is God's job to save people, not ours; we are to proclaim His Truth and live contrary to the world.
> 
> Also, keep in mind one thing: no group has any monopoly on any aspect of human behavior. Do not let your opinion of religion blind you to the faults of others.
> 
> Would it surprise you that the elites who believe they own this world also practice this? Many of these people claim descendants from ancient, royal bloodlines and strive to keep it pure. Why are they now giving a platform to allow others to learn about it?



You pretty much touch my standpoint. From what I understand about Enoch.. But My input would be considered wack lol


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## 8HoursFromHome (Jul 24, 2010)

To luthiengirlie, you have expressed twice that your opinions would be"'wack" or " way way different".  I have thrown the question out there, feel free to expound.  I am not here to condemn, but to learn...


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## luthiengirlie (Jul 24, 2010)

My View is this. Enoch speaks about how two groups of angels rebelled against Adonai and fell One was lucifer (WE ALL KNOW THAT STORY) and the other were two angels. They were complaining to Adonai about"men are stupid they know nothing why did u create them, we need to teach them" so Adonai says..go ahead. They get to earth and see how pretty the animals and human women are. They make a pact among themselves and say well we'll mate with them and no matter what happens we'll stick together. Mating with human and animals is an ambomniation to the Most High. So they were cut off from their scource..Adonai. Obviously they were seen on Earth as gods. Think Zeus, Hera, Hermes. There's fact in that. They realized they were cut off and Enoch, who is the line of Seth and grandfather of Noah. The bloodline was pure, only human. No abomination. So the fallen begged Enoch  to speak to Adonai for them. Enoch did. Adonai says, nope nope nope you are not forgiven. Your descandant will NOT be saved. Your children will die. And a coupla of em were thrown in prison. So in that, they were like well we're screwed so we gawn do what we gawn do. So they taught humanity even more abominiations, witchcraft. Alchemeny,Necromancy, astrology, reading and writing(written words have power). Which is why Adonai deems them forbidden in the bible. I'm saying all this to say,that yeah, male/male preactices and other things CAME from somewhere. This is NOT the normal evolution of culture. It has been tainted.when one reads Enoch, the entire picture makes sense. It really does..it explains the entire agenda from beginning to end and I suspect it makes Revelation make more sense. It could be that again.  And as far as. Christianity imposing. Think about this bible verse and I hate to admit this a lot of people don't believe in Christianity due to this fulfillment of this bible verse: "there will be many who call me Lord, Lord, but will not enter the gates of heaven" Have you met Christians who call Adonai, Lord and say I'm this I'm that and they were purposefully and I mean PURPOSEFULLY sinful? Cold hearts, evil cutting words standing in judgement of others when it aint their JOB to?  Yes, many will say" But but Adonai, I cast out demons, I I I healed dese people, I I I did this, I I I did that" but He will say I never knew you. Do you know why? Because they had No love, No obedience, no trust/faith. They weren't willing to HONOR that relationship with the Most High. This is something I STRIVE to be mindful of. Becacuse as the Word states, its just noise and cymbols clamoring If they have the language of angels(sweet words), prophetic words, they lay they hands on folks, cast out demons. But if that love relationship is NOT there, its just a bunch of talk. You see this evidenced in slavery AND the crusades. People calling Adonai Lord Lord and not meaning it in their hearts. 

Forgive me if I seem ALL OVER THE PLACE But I am stating this to say: it is not "Christianity Imposed" that. Destroys cultures. Its using the name of Adonai, to supress and manipulate people the underdog to kow down, and BOW down to their wishes. True relationship with Yeshua, respects others, Love others, teach and encourage others. Don't get me wrong. Adonai can, will, and DOES judge. Would you really wanna serve an Adonai that gives people a pass go? But He is merciful. Methelusah lived 638 years before Adonai Flooded the world. He gave 638 YEARS for humanity to repent. Methelusah means MERCY, A HOLDING BACK OF JUDGEMENT.  If that aint a merciful Elohim, I don't know what is. These are my thoughts. If they're wack to you, so be it lol. But I have loved Adonai and my relationship with Yeshua even more so after reading Enoch.


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## 8HoursFromHome (Jul 24, 2010)

That was an interesting read.  It definitely makes me curious about Enoch.  And I see the point where you state *"it is not "Christianity Imposed" that. Destroys cultures. Its using the name of Adonai, to supress and manipulate people the underdog to kow down, and BOW down to their wishes."* 

Can I safely assume that what you are saying is that the Euro-spawned Christianity is a gross bastardization of something that was once true and right.


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## luthiengirlie (Jul 24, 2010)

In a huge sense *YES* due to their motives... some would say they were truly Pharisees. I don't know if i agree with that.  I have learned RELIGION is the opiate and control of the masses. RELATIONSHIP is not. I'm not solely speaking of Euro-Christianity , even this has had a huge impact on the destruction of cultures. But a lot of times people were in it for..power, $$, lust greed. oh and they used Adonai's name to do it too.. BUt the Slaves they actually READ the bible. Adonai is so Genius. It' funny slaves READ the bible and they had the innate understanding to realize that true Christianity were what the eurpoeans made it out to be. It is not our job to enslave, judge< or condment. It is not our job to save as Nymphe stated. But it is o ur job to walk in love relationship wtih Adonai and others. To prove being worthy of a servant and live our life of love so that Adonai  convicts. Our problem as Christians is that we try to convict but we wind up condemning.. why? *Because we are NOT the judge. We are the Jugde's servant of Love and Mercy. It would behoove ME and others to keep that in mind. I am NOT a perfect christian. I love Yeshua, I want others to see that with my LIFE not just my words cause as WE ALL know folks can say ANYTHING.  I am NOT  perfect Christian, but I strive to grow and be and ABIDE in HIm.  I hope this helps. *


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## SND411 (Jul 24, 2010)

There is so much evil everywhere. Someone of these "imperialists" are at times too blind to see it within themselves. These will be people surprised to know that they never "knew" God on Judgment Day.  Having the desire to conquer other peoples comes from a source of arrogance and we all know God hates pride.


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## missusM (Jul 24, 2010)

luthiengirlie said:


> My View is this. Enoch speaks about how two groups of angels rebelled against Adonai and fell One was lucifer (WE ALL KNOW THAT STORY) and the other were two angels. They were complaining to Adonai about"men are stupid they know nothing why did u create them, we need to teach them" so Adonai says..go ahead. They get to earth and see how pretty the animals and human women are. They make a pact among themselves and say well we'll mate with them and no matter what happens we'll stick together. Mating with human and animals is an ambomniation to the Most High. So they were cut off from their scource..Adonai. Obviously they were seen on Earth as gods. Think Zeus, Hera, Hermes. There's fact in that. They realized they were cut off and Enoch, who is the line of Seth and grandfather of Noah. The bloodline was pure, only human. No abomination. So the fallen begged Enoch  to speak to Adonai for them. Enoch did. Adonai says, nope nope nope you are not forgiven. Your descandant will NOT be saved. Your children will die. And a coupla of em were thrown in prison. So in that, they were like well we're screwed so we gawn do what we gawn do. So they taught humanity even more abominiations, witchcraft. Alchemeny,Necromancy, astrology, reading and writing(written words have power). Which is why Adonai deems them forbidden in the bible. I'm saying all this to say,that yeah, male/male preactices and other things CAME from somewhere. This is NOT the normal evolution of culture. It has been tainted.when one reads Enoch, the entire picture makes sense. It really does..it explains the entire agenda from beginning to end and I suspect it makes Revelation make more sense. It could be that again.  And as far as. Christianity imposing. Think about this bible verse and I hate to admit this a lot of people don't believe in Christianity due to this fulfillment of this bible verse: *"there will be many who call me Lord, Lord, but will not enter the gates of heaven" Have you met Christians who call Adonai, Lord and say I'm this I'm that and they were purposefully and I mean PURPOSEFULLY sinful? Cold hearts, evil cutting words standing in judgement of others when it aint their JOB to?  *Yes, many will say" But but Adonai, I cast out demons, I I I healed dese people, I I I did this, I I I did that" but He will say I never knew you. Do you know why? *Because they had No love, No obedience, no trust/faith. They weren't willing to HONOR that relationship with the Most High. This is something I STRIVE to be mindful of. Becacuse as the Word states, its just noise and cymbols clamoring If they have the language of angels(sweet words), prophetic words, they lay they hands on folks, cast out demons. But if that love relationship is NOT there, its just a bunch of talk. *You see this evidenced in slavery AND the crusades. People calling Adonai Lord Lord and not meaning it in their hearts.
> 
> Forgive me if I seem ALL OVER THE PLACE But I am stating this to say: it is not "Christianity Imposed" that. Destroys cultures. Its using the name of Adonai, to supress and manipulate people the underdog to kow down, and BOW down to their wishes. True relationship with Yeshua, respects others, Love others, teach and encourage others. Don't get me wrong. Adonai can, will, and DOES judge. Would you really wanna serve an Adonai that gives people a pass go? But He is merciful. Methelusah lived 638 years before Adonai Flooded the world. He gave 638 YEARS for humanity to repent. Methelusah means MERCY, A HOLDING BACK OF JUDGEMENT.  If that aint a merciful Elohim, I don't know what is. These are my thoughts. If they're wack to you, so be it lol. But I have loved Adonai and my relationship with Yeshua even more so after reading Enoch.




Re: stuff in bold:  it seems with one you do what the other is saying not to do, you judge by talking of those that sin while claiming some caveat with regards to the word of god.  First, i'm so glad i'm one of those people that have fallen so many times its ridiculous, so that people like yourself can say " she's a hypocrite" , i know what God says to me, that a righteous "man" falls seven times, and that if your brother sins you should forgive him seventy times seven.  i know its not the number of sinning its the illustration that we are all imperfect beings who if we chose love a perfect God. 

yeah we know about the colonial use of the word of god, they used it because they knew it was essentially good and it had mass appea because of its goodness, its like tasting sugar for the first time, real truth is sweet. l it doesnt mean that christianity at its heart is bad.   if i take a e type jag and run an old lady over with it, does it mean that the jag is bad or the driver was?


As for the "savages" becoming christians, good.  I'm glad.... I think Jesus christ is the truth and people far less sophisticated than us in western societies,  see the truth even if we with all our intelligence, readings of the book of  Enoch/Enosh, book of the Dead do not.  the children of disobedience  have their minds darkened for a time so that the truth may be revealed in them that seek him.  



I'm not sure why the book of Enoch was even brought up, but I still agree with the common consensus that its an historical tome, interesting nonetheless.  What gets me about so many folk that read the book of Enoch ( not saying this is you)  and the book of the dead and nothing else.. its completely taken out of context, its that kind of thing that Satan loves to use, take stuff and make it into something else.  I have had nuwabians (aaaargh) come to me trying to explain stuff, and because they dont really understand it, they just confuse everyone around them.., then they start on the most high this and the most high that, i had to ask them what you mean " most high" because i knew it was something different,  " do you mean high up in the sky high"  and they replied "yes" . I further gleaned that they related to the "most high" as if he was an alien being sent from High.. and theeen I got a headache loool

People are zealous, and passionate  about things they believe to be the truth and as we are not perfect we are bound to make mistakes, if they have been insensitive to the parts of their culture that can stay because it isnt seen as outright sin  to the newly reformed and/or dangerous  its really up to that ministry to practice tolerance and respect. I hope and pray they do.


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## luthiengirlie (Jul 24, 2010)

FORGIVE Me if I came across in seeming to Judge., That was NOT my intention at all so to speak It truly wasnt. I was saying that Adonai IS the most high judge and we have to be careful ALL OF US myself included(I'M CALLING MYSELF OUT HERE AS WELL) have to becare of not running around saying I'm better than her and she's this stinking uh tryna ACT LIKE BE A CHRISTIAN HEATHEN.

Again I apologize if i came across of acting like I'm a judgement. 
I'm speaking of those whose minds are reprobate
not necessarily those who struggle
I fall down and I get up OFTEN
who am I TO SAY that I am better than anyone. 
\
I never stated Christianity at its heart was bad. I said the motives behind those who opress using Christianity was bad. 
please do not get my words twisted.

I'M EXCITED that what ha the world deems "savages" were saved

and I have issues all up int hat word  concerning who the savages truly are. I believe in the beauty of spreading the gospel
Yeshua/Jesus is the Way the truth and the life and none can come to Adonai except by Him.
I declare that before the world and I pray I LIVE IT too more and mroe each day.

I brought up Enoch(the line of Seth dude) because it triggered me to see connections. It was a thought process most likely badly written out. But it made a lot of sense to me as to why male/male sex was such a huge thing in those societes of the ha "savages". 

AGAIN if i came across as condenscending, Phariseeish. Please forgive me. it is the LAST thing I want to do/convey about myself.  I can be pretty st raightfoward and it often comes across the wrong way. 

I think I have issues with those who use religion to opress and ATTEMPT to negate the gospel and Yeshua's love for us that i come across harsher than intended.. forgive me for that too.


I don't take STOCK in Enoch as it is the end all/be all but I strongly believe that it makes a lot of pieces fit together. I am trying to learn what His truth is without worldy deception
because so much deception in the Church now made me go whoa. so in a sense I am learning things all over again

Enoch/Enosh is someting i stand firmly on... the book of Jasher, Jubiliees, Macabbeesm the books of Wisdom. i'm kind of ehh about. so please  don't take me believing  every extracanoncial book as reality.  I've known about the book of Enoch for years. I'm discovering that even Yeshua/Jesus HIMSELF quoted this book. that holds a LOT of weight to me... Again I am still learning and again please forgive me if I came across as....harsh.


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## luthiengirlie (Jul 25, 2010)

missusM said:


> Re: stuff in bold: it seems with one you do what the other is saying not to do, you judge by talking of those that sin while claiming some caveat with regards to the word of god. First, i'm so glad i'm one of those people that have fallen so many times its ridiculous, so that people like yourself can say " she's a hypocrite" , i know what God says to me, that a righteous "man" falls seven times, and that if your brother sins you should forgive him seventy times seven. i know its not the number of sinning its the illustration that we are all imperfect beings who if we chose love a perfect God.
> 
> yeah we know about the colonial use of the word of god, they used it because they knew it was essentially good and it had mass appea because of its goodness, its like tasting sugar for the first time, real truth is sweet. l it doesnt mean that christianity at its heart is bad. if i take a e type jag and run an old lady over with it, does it mean that the jag is bad or the driver was?
> 
> ...


 

HONESTLY i don't think you read my other post further down. I think you read my FIRST post and reacted.


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## 8HoursFromHome (Jul 25, 2010)

Ladies, thank you for the education.  I was not raised in the church so I guess I have not been indoctrinated in its ways and teachings.  I have always questioned the people on this earth that preach 'the word'.  We've seen time and time again how they conduct themselves and tome, it doesn't make sense.  Thank you for the frank words, I'm learning alot here.


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## uniquely made (Jul 25, 2010)

One thing Ive learned in my walk with Jesus, is that sometimes the driver IS bad, but not necessary the Jag.  God has a wonderful way of fishing through the bad stuff and the good stuff surfaces.  I learned this 1st hand when I gave my life to Jesus.  My boyfriend at the time had gotten saved and came home telling me about this Jesus.  I thought it was good for him, but I wasn't feeling it at the time.  He invited me to church and I finally went when I got a day off.  But the female pastor he had been going to had been saying very condemning things about me.  I knew my life wasn't right but I had never been confronted about it either.  I didn't grow up in a holy ghost filled church, but deep down I knew something was wrong with the way I was living.  Anyway, I finally go to church with him and the pastor stops preaching and looks at me and says "I rebuke you satan, in the name of Jesus".  I had never heard that phrase, but I clearly understood what she was saying.  Part of me was hurt, confused and couldn't believe a "pastor" would say that to me.  The other part was ready to beat her down.  I was gonna show her satan .  This woman never talked to me about salvation even though there were only 6 of us at the church.  I waited and waited because something in me wanted what he had.  It got worse, she did everything she could to turn him against me , trying to hook him up with her daughter, who already had 3 kids out of wedlock, but she was holy ghost filled.  Did I mention she had 2 other daughters both with kids, none married, holy ghost filled.  All supposed to be ministers.  Granted we did live together, were fornicating, listened to ungodly music, drank when I wanted to and cursed when I wanted to.  Did I mention her daughter went to freaknick against her mother's will.  I had never been to freaknick and wasn't planning on going.  I didn't understand why she thought I was SO horrible, even before she met me.  

I said all this to say, one day I was very upset and confused because this pastor who knew the Bible front to back was attacking me.  I didn't have the Biblical knowledge that she had to fight back, but I knew deep down that the things she was saying about me were twisted and not loving.  They weren't coming from God.  I had gone through the sinners prayer several times and felt nothing.  I thought I was unsaveable.  I prayed and asked God why, what was wrong with me?  I"ll never forget He said.  "stop looking at these people and their sins, focus on me and what Ive taught you.   While you're focused on them and whether they're really saved or not, you dont' know for yourself.  You need to believe and trust in me.  I will help you get things right.You don't have to ask again for salvation, I gave it to you the 1st time you prayed to me.  Trust in me".    He said that He loved me and He also loved them and knew my pain and the pain that had experienced in their life.  

I realized that these people could really be saved and it was not my problem or place to judge them or figure them out.  I needed to get right with God.  And it's a day to day walk with HIm.  I eventually ask Him to help me forgive her and her daughters, which took some time,  and was able to move on.   

John 3:16-18.  I chose to believe Him.  everyday I wonder why He loves me and puts up with my mess, but then I smile, cry and thank Him.  Ephesians 2:8-9.  It's not because of anything I did, He did it all.  

Sorry, I can be long winded, hope this helps somebody .


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## tarheelgurl (Jul 25, 2010)

Man, I read the article it was written 10 years ago but that's beside the point. Ok, back on topic. What makes a someone a savage? I have heard people say Detroit was filled with savages, do we need to send Christians there? Ok, sorry again, back to the topic:

I think that while Christians feel that they are doing a good thing going to remote island nations converting those people, saving them from the things they have worshipped and practiced probably thousands of years, they instead need to stay home and help the people in their own land.  

We have people right here in civilization practicing savage behavior ie: pedophiles, murderers and drug addicts. Some of these island people need to say "why you comin here telling me this when you got Christians in your own country doing the same things or worse."

Get your own house right before you go telling other people what they should do. Many cultures have fallen after the introduction of Christianity and it makes sense....there are priests raping boys, preachers with downlow homosexual relationships and gay church piano players on almost every block.


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## Sharpened (Jul 25, 2010)

tarheelgurl said:


> Man, I read the article it was written 10 years ago but that's beside the point. Ok, back on topic. What makes a someone a savage? I have heard people say Detroit was filled with savages, do we need to send Christians there? Ok, sorry again, back to the topic:
> 
> I think that while Christians feel that they are doing a good thing going to remote island nations converting those people, saving them from the things they have worshipped and practiced probably thousands of years, they instead need to stay home and help the people in their own land.
> 
> ...


LOL!

Let me repeat what I posted earlier: no group has any monopoly on any aspect of human behavior. Do not let  your opinion of religion blind you to the faults of others.

Look around! Look at history! Set aside your bias and see human nature for what it is. Also, you have no idea how true missionary work is handled, which requires people to become a part of the culture in order to survive. We are called to tell the truth, to spread it to the four corners of the earth. The Father Himself makes the changes, not us. Anything more than that is no different than the secularists and other non-Christian groups do to indigenous people at this present time.


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## Laela (Jul 25, 2010)

I am glad to see you got that revelation from God for yourself. 
Too many times people allow what other people are doing/saying to get in the way of them making that decision to answer God's call. A big, fat excuse is what I call it. People will be people until the end of time...

I went through that tunnel-vision thinking about "church folks," too when I wasn't saved. God kept dealing with my heart and no matter who was preaching, the sermon was always about ME. My heart would always beat hard and fast but I'd sit still in the pew, in a state of defiance. I'd get mad at the preachers. I'd get mad at the church folks, when really I was mad at myself. 
I couldn't run way from God, no matter how hard I tried... until the day I finally surrendered.

Deep down inside, God was dealing with you, too, and I'm glad to see you CHOSE to ignore all the other nonsense and listen to HIS VOICE. In the end, that's all that counts when we each stand before the Almighty God to account for how we live the lives he gave us.  

Great testimony....



uniquely made said:


> One thing Ive learned in my walk with Jesus, is that sometimes the driver IS bad, but not necessary the Jag.  God has a wonderful way of fishing through the bad stuff and the good stuff surfaces.  I learned this 1st hand when I gave my life to Jesus.  My boyfriend at the time had gotten saved and came home telling me about this Jesus.  I thought it was good for him, but I wasn't feeling it at the time.  He invited me to church and I finally went when I got a day off.  But the female pastor he had been going to had been saying very condemning things about me.  I knew my life wasn't right but I had never been confronted about it either.  I didn't grow up in a holy ghost filled church, but deep down I knew something was wrong with the way I was living.  Anyway, I finally go to church with him and the pastor stops preaching and looks at me and says "I rebuke you satan, in the name of Jesus".  I had never heard that phrase, but I clearly understood what she was saying.  Part of me was hurt, confused and couldn't believe a "pastor" would say that to me.  The other part was ready to beat her down.  I was gonna show her satan .  This woman never talked to me about salvation even though there were only 6 of us at the church.  I waited and waited because something in me wanted what he had.  It got worse, she did everything she could to turn him against me , trying to hook him up with her daughter, who already had 3 kids out of wedlock, but she was holy ghost filled.  Did I mention she had 2 other daughters both with kids, none married, holy ghost filled.  All supposed to be ministers.  Granted we did live together, were fornicating, listened to ungodly music, drank when I wanted to and cursed when I wanted to.  Did I mention her daughter went to freaknick against her mother's will.  I had never been to freaknick and wasn't planning on going.  I didn't understand why she thought I was SO horrible, even before she met me.
> 
> I said all this to say, one day I was very upset and confused because this pastor who knew the Bible front to back was attacking me.  I didn't have the Biblical knowledge that she had to fight back, but I knew deep down that the things she was saying about me were twisted and not loving.  They weren't coming from God.  I had gone through the sinners prayer several times and felt nothing.  I thought I was unsaveable.  I prayed and asked God why, what was wrong with me?  I"ll never forget He said.  "stop looking at these people and their sins, focus on me and what Ive taught you.   *While you're focused on them and whether they're really saved or not, you dont' know for yourself.  You need to believe and trust in me.  I will help you get things right.*You don't have to ask again for salvation, I gave it to you the 1st time you prayed to me.  Trust in me".    He said that He loved me and He also loved them and knew my pain and the pain that had experienced in their life.
> 
> ...


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## tarheelgurl (Jul 25, 2010)

Nymphe said:


> LOL!
> 
> Let me repeat what I posted earlier: no group has any monopoly on any aspect of human behavior. Do not let your opinion of religion blind you to the faults of others.
> 
> Look around! Look at history! Set aside your bias and see human nature for what it is. Also, you have no idea how true missionary work is handled, which requires people to become a part of the culture in order to survive. We are called to tell the truth, to spread it to the four corners of the earth. The Father Himself makes the changes, not us. Anything more than that is no different than the secularists and other non-Christian groups do to indigenous people at this present time.


 
I understand missionary work and I understand what they go through to blend with a particular group.  I didn't say anyone had a monopoly on certain behaviors. All I was saying is that these missionaries go to these lands telling those people their ways are wrong and how they will save them from themselves, but back at home there are so many Christians needing to be saved from themselves as well. Tis all....

Is like "...be like us...be like us..." but who's to say being like you is what the so called "savages" need?


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## Sharpened (Jul 25, 2010)

tarheelgurl said:


> I understand missionary work and I understand what they go through to blend with a particular group.  I didn't say anyone had a monopoly on certain behaviors. All I was saying is that these missionaries go to these lands telling those people their ways are wrong and how they will save them from themselves, but back at home there are so many Christians needing to be saved from themselves as well. Tis all....
> 
> Is like "...be like us...be like us..." but who's to say being like you is what the so called "savages" need?


Correction: it is "be like Christ...be like Christ." God will deal with His children here in time and He has (why do you think these false teachers get exposed?). As for the rest, that is being done; ever heard of intercity missions? The problem is man does not trust the Power of God and tries force His Will, rendering His Power of ineffective.

Man sucks at rules man, no matter what form it comes in. I strongly suggest you find that group who is perfect and tell us about it.


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## 8HoursFromHome (Jul 25, 2010)

tarheelgurl said:


> Man, I read the article it was written 10 years ago but that's beside the point. Ok, back on topic. What makes a someone a savage? I have heard people say Detroit was filled with savages, do we need to send Christians there? Ok, sorry again, back to the topic:
> 
> I think that while Christians feel that they are doing a good thing going to remote island nations converting those people, saving them from the things they have worshipped and practiced probably thousands of years, they instead need to stay home and help the people in their own land.
> 
> ...


 
You have a very interesting opinion...  Something like, "You're not in a position to spread the word, you need to clean up your own house first." 

I can get with that, too.  I'm coming from the angle that these so-called 'savages' have adopted a way of life that already works for them, why do they need Christianity?  To many, Christianity is a beautiful thing, but it starts off a chain reaction that results in the ending of an established and thriving culture.


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## tarheelgurl (Jul 25, 2010)

Nymphe said:


> Correction: it is "be like Christ...be like Christ." God will deal with His children here in time and He has (why do you think these false teachers get exposed?). As for the rest, that is being done; ever heard of intercity missions? The problem is man does not trust the Power of God and tries force His Will, rendering His Power of ineffective.
> 
> Man sucks at rules man, no matter what form it comes in. I strongly suggest you find that group who is perfect and tell us about it.


 
I'm not looking for perfect group...but when and if I do, I will let you know!
 I guess you just made my point with that statement though, if Christianity isn't perfect, then how do you know whatever it is the wild people are doing isn't any better? 

I'm not going to say any more about it though. My point was basically, indigenous people may or may not benefit from being inroduced to Christianity and basically while they are saying "...Be like Christ..." there are many Christians that aren't doing that. Basically, before you fix someone else's pipes, figure out a way to stop your own from leaking. That's all I was trying to say.


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## tarheelgurl (Jul 25, 2010)

displacedcreole said:


> You have a very interesting opinion... Something like, "You're not in a position to spread the word, you need to clean up your own house first."
> 
> I can get with that, too. I'm coming from the angle that these so-called 'savages' have adopted a way of life that already works for them, why do they need Christianity? To many, Christianity is a beautiful thing, but it starts off a chain reaction that results in the ending of an established and thriving culture.


 
Thank you....I was about to think I wasn't clear enough on what I was trying to say but you get it....thanks!


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## Sharpened (Jul 25, 2010)

tarheelgurl said:


> I'm not looking for perfect group...but when and if I do, I will let you know!
> I guess you just made my point with that statement though, if Christianity isn't perfect, then how do you know whatever it is the wild people are doing isn't any better?
> 
> I'm not going to say any more about it though. My point was basically, indigenous people may or may not benefit from being inroduced to Christianity and basically while they are saying "...Be like Christ..." there are many Christians that aren't doing that. Basically, before you fix someone else's pipes, figure out a way to stop your own from leaking. That's all I was trying to say.


Cultures come and go, with or without human or natural intervention and  it will never stop. History proves that over and over again, even before  Jesus came along. Dig deeper into the past; you will be surprised at what you find.

This is about a relationship, not religion. Religion is no different than politics or any man-made construct. People can accept or reject His Gift of eternal life, but He _alone_ makes the connection within a person's heart.


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## Guitarhero (Jul 25, 2010)

The title..."savages"....some of us take offense to that word...but I know in which context it is meant...and you're right.  That viewpoint.  However, who's to determine who is saved who isn't?  We're still here in the flesh and since we are not in heaven...well, it's up to God to determine in the end.  Every man has good and bad inside, two fighting wolves.  If one lives according to the truth that he knows and upholds it, couldn't he be "saved" in the end?  This is my point.  People pass that word "salvation" around like a club title.  Truth is, none of know who will be saved and who will not be.  That's why we are to :

Hebrews 3:14

"We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first."

IMHO, the only thing that christian missionaries did (and still do) was spread hatred, kill self-esteem and create societies that would be forever held to paying taxes by their sweat equity.  Somehow, the "natives" found the true gospel despite the "christians" who vomited their version out.  Some things have changed, such as apologies to indigenous populations worldwide.  The damage has been done and now we are faced with forgiveness.

If feelings were irrelevant, then God wouldn't have given scripture dealing with them in the first place.  Humans are not steel, they are flesh.  If Jesus wept, it was due to this feelings.  The truth of scripture is universal...true enough.  What is not always truth is our interpretation of it, esp. who we think is saved and who we think is not.


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## uniquely made (Jul 25, 2010)

*We have people right here in civilization practicing savage behavior ie: pedophiles, murderers and drug addicts.* Some of these island people need to say "why you comin here telling me this when you got Christians in your own country doing the same things or worse."

Get your own house right before you go telling other people what they should do. Many cultures have fallen after the introduction of Christianity and it makes sense....*there are priests raping boys, preachers with downlow homosexual relationships and gay church piano players on almost every block.*

Tarheelgurl?  Do you think these behaviors are OK?  If so why?  If not , why not?  

And to the original poster, in what ways do you consider this culture thriving?  I don't see any difference in their behavior and the behavior of those listed as pedophiles and rapist.  I read  the article that this discussion originated from and I could barely get through it, I was totally disgusted.  What is your source of what's right and wrong?    My source is the Word of God.  Call me judgmental if you like.  Is it judgmental to call a rape what it is.  Molestors are molestors.  I don't care where or how they were raised.  Some things are just plain SICK.  Anyway, my stomach is still turning.

And most missionaries don't go to distant lands to condemn these people and tell them how awful they are.  Most of them have good hearts and a lot of compassion to try to reach these people in all lands.  More compassion than I probably have.  cause if I went I would honestly probably lose it on them.  So I commend them in their imperfection to give up their comfort to reach other people.  And yes, missionaries do the same here in our country.  The difference is that we have more opportunity to hear the Word of God.  Some of these countries don't , so God sends others to reach them.  

I still would like to know why some seem to despise Christians for not having it all together but are defensive of this way of life.  would you say just leave a pediphile alone , it's none of your business.  They seem to be thriving also.

And to the question about the assurance of salvation.  You're right, no one can say who will or will not be saved.  But God does say that you can know for yourself.  Here are some scriptrues I read when I had that same question.  

John1:12,   I John 5:13,   John 5:24, and John 6:47.  Im not good at copying and pasting without losing my post.  So you can read them for yourself.


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## Laela (Jul 25, 2010)

There are two slightly different conversations going on here... one concerning people's opinions concerning "bad Christians" another concerning missionary work and its effect on cultures worldwide. The latter being what we all tend to know historically about indigenous peoples the world over being abused by so-called missionaries.

What Nymphe has been emphasizing is that missionaries (like anyone who professes Christ) are called to "go into all the world and preach the Gospel" This is a dictate from God. We are supposed to face rejection, persecution, even violence. How God's work is presented in missionary work is what makes it effective or non- ineffective.

If a culture isn't worshiping the one true God, it's worshiping other gods. It's really that simple. I'm sorry but there are way too many missionaries out there who ARE doing things right and not abusing or forcing themselves on people, than those who are.  



displacedcreole said:


> You have a very interesting opinion...  Something like, "You're not in a position to spread the word, you need to clean up your own house first."
> 
> I can get with that, too.  I'm coming from the angle that these so-called 'savages' have adopted a way of life that already works for them, why do they need Christianity?  To many, Christianity is a beautiful thing, but it starts off a chain reaction that results in the ending of an established and thriving culture.


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## Laela (Jul 25, 2010)

That's an interesting point, about culture. I can't tell you how many interesting conversations I've had with others from overseas about "culture". I come from a _*culture *_of "savages"... this culture gyrates to lusty music, promotes sexual freedom, allows children to 'worship' other gods by letting them wear marks on their bodies... they call it CARNIVAL 

It's true, we don't need to go to far away lands to preach the Word to 'savages'. Being separated from God will keep animal characteristics in all of us... When we get to know God, our eyes begin to open to seeing these things for what they are.



Nymphe said:


> *Cultures come and go, with or without human or natural intervention and  it will never stop.* History proves that over and over again, even before  Jesus came along. Dig deeper into the past; you will be surprised at what you find.
> 
> This is about a relationship, not religion. Religion is no different than politics or any man-made construct. People can accept or reject His Gift of eternal life, but He _alone_ makes the connection within a person's heart.


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## Guitarhero (Jul 25, 2010)

Laela said:


> What Nymphe has been emphasizing is that missionaries (like anyone who  professes Christ) are called to "go into all the world and preach the  Gospel" This is a dictate from God. *We are supposed to face rejection,  persecution, even violence.* How God's work is presented in missionary  work is what makes it effective or non- ineffective..




Yes, and not perpetrate it.  Someone made mention of missionaries telling others the errors of their religions, even christian orthodoxy.  I've had second-hand experience of this, witnessing how this works.  How can one go to a country that has been christian for 2,000 years and tell its countrymen they are not the "right" kind of christians?  erplexed  

This issue is so multi-faceted.  Anyway, who has a link to the original thread and/or article???


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## LovingLady (Jul 25, 2010)

displacedcreole said:


> You have a very interesting opinion...  Something like, "You're not in a position to spread the word, you need to clean up your own house first."
> 
> I can get with that, too.  I'm coming from the angle that these so-called 'savages' have adopted a way of life that already works for them, why do they need Christianity?  To many, *Christianity is a beautiful thing, but it starts off a chain reaction that results in the ending of an established and thriving culture.*





tarheelgurl said:


> I'm not looking for perfect group...but when and if I do, I will let you know!
> I guess you just made my point with that statement though, if Christianity isn't perfect, then how do you know whatever it is the wild people are doing isn't any better?
> 
> I'm not going to say any more about it though. *My point was basically, indigenous people may or may not benefit from being inroduced to Christianity and basically while they are saying "...Be like Christ..." there are many Christians that aren't doing that. Basically, before you fix someone else's pipes, figure out a way to stop your own from leaking. *That's all I was trying to say.




You can not blame Christianity, you can only blame the people in the religion. 

Now, just because you are a Christian that does not mean you will no longer commit sin or fall into temptation. For us not to spread the gospel and tell people the truth because our society is not living it out perfectly doesn't make sense, the truth is the truth and people need to know it. Learning about God and how Jesus died for our sin is an amazing thing, in the end it does nothing but benefit people. If their culture is destroyed and there was nothing sinfully about it, then it is the fault of man, not of God.


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## tarheelgurl (Jul 25, 2010)

uniquely made said:


> *We have people right here in civilization practicing savage behavior ie: pedophiles, murderers and drug addicts.* Some of these island people need to say "why you comin here telling me this when you got Christians in your own country doing the same things or worse."
> 
> Get your own house right before you go telling other people what they should do. Many cultures have fallen after the introduction of Christianity and it makes sense....*there are priests raping boys, preachers with downlow homosexual relationships and gay church piano players on almost every block.*
> 
> ...


 
No, I do not think that pedophelia, rape and murders are ok in any way, shape or form. This is coming from a moral point of view and maintaining the structure of a functional society. I am a Christian but I do not use what I believe to infringe on someone else's opinion or lifestyle. There are so many people who call themselves Christians but will hate someone because they claim the Bible dictates them to do so. 

Many people I know that go to church every Sunday are the biggest sinners on Saturday night, but will tell me I am wrong for not attending services. There is nothing wrong with going to a country, immersing in the culture and offering the Christian teachings to the local residents. Give them a choice, teach them about the Bible. 

It is another thing completely, to come into a country and tell everyone they are savage, hell bound heathens because they practice whatever religion it is they have been practicing it for who knows how long. Just because its different doesn't mean its wrong. I am not justifying having sex with young boys, but I am saying that its what they do...it would be different if people went there and said "hey, we are taking these kids to protect them from being raped" but they aren't. They are saying 'hey, your ways are not right, let us make you Christians'. What about the boys?

Its like people are more concerned with converting people and saving their souls instead of protecting the children from what's happening to them.


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## Laela (Jul 25, 2010)

*When the Apostle Paul said he was all things to all People, *he was accommodating a "culture" based on their way of life (language, dress, diet, social customs, entertainment,              etc.) but he was not accommodating in terms of doctrine or moral behavior.
*1 Corinthians 9:19-23 
*


 19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 
 20And  unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them  that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that  are under the law; 
 21To  them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to  God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are  without law. 
 22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 
 23And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.



Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> Yes, and not perpetrate it.  Someone made mention of missionaries telling others the errors of their religions, even christian orthodoxy.  I've had second-hand experience of this, witnessing how this works.  *How can one go to a country that has been christian for 2,000 years and tell its countrymen they are not the "right" kind of christians*?  erplexed
> 
> This issue is so multi-faceted.  Anyway, who has a link to the original thread and/or article???


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## Guitarhero (Jul 25, 2010)

Laela said:


> *When the Apostle Paul said he was all things to all People, *he was accommodating a "culture" based on their way of life (language, dress, diet, social customs, entertainment,              etc.) but he was not accommodating in terms of doctrine or moral behavior.
> *1 Corinthians 9:19-23
> *
> 
> ...




What do you mean, exactly?  The ones I know held to the truth as given by the apostles and are regularly "attacked" and psychologically seduced to change that for a christianity that developed much later in history...say, the 21st century.  I'm not understanding.

Incidentally, this practice is all over the Americas.  I see it often and it's something I have been pondering this week...so surprised to see this thread.   My concerns were related to those who ask "when did you become a christian" and the responses were either conversion through the RCC or orthodox church, and/or baptism as infants.  There are people who just were raised to be christians and took over these reins at confirmation (age of accountability).  They didn't have an altar call (as I understand it) experience with crying and sorrow...they just held firm to the truth all their lives.  Dunno.  So, they don't have a  particular moment of turning around per se.  A little off-topic...but not much.


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## Laela (Jul 25, 2010)

The _Christian teachings _is based on the Bible...the infallible Word of God, in which Jesus himself said that the ONLY way to God the Father is through Him. Ergo, if a person doesn't accept Jesus, they don't have access to God. There is no gray

You're right, it is a choice....a person either believes what the Bible says or they don't.  God will respect their choice and Christians should, too.

I hope you're not confusing some missionaries' passion and excitement in spreading the Gospel with forcing themselves on others. There's a difference. A Child of God isn't going to 'immerse' themselves in any culture to the point of compromise. It's  not being an effective witness when our spiritual lives get 'infected' instead of our lives being effective. 

Folks like to always say Jesus "hung out" with sinners. But they gloss over the fact that he didn't "hang out" with sinners to accommodate them morally or to please them, he was in their midst to restore them back to God. He had a mission and that mission included compassion and CHANGE. His mission wasn't forced but it was effective. That is the difference.




tarheelgurl said:


> No, I do not think that pedophelia, rape and murders are ok in any way, shape or form. This is coming from a moral point of view and maintaining the structure of a functional society. I am a Christian but I do not use what I believe to infringe on someone else's opinion or lifestyle. There are so many people who call themselves Christians but will hate someone because they claim the Bible dictates them to do so.
> 
> Many people I know that go to church every Sunday are the biggest sinners on Saturday night, but will tell me I am wrong for not attending services. *There is nothing wrong with going to a country, immersing in the culture and offering the Christian teachings to the local residents. Give them a choice, teach them about the Bible. *
> 
> ...


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## Laela (Jul 25, 2010)

I agree _the Church _has changed dramatically over the centuries and is far from what the Early Church was. Since God's Word hasn't and will never change, there will always be people who live for God.

That's my point.



Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> What do you mean, exactly?  The ones I know held to the truth as given by the apostles and are regularly "attacked" and psychologically seduced to ch*ange that for a christianity that developed much later in history...say, the 21st century.  I'm not understanding.*
> 
> Incidentally, this practice is all over the Americas.  I see it often and it's something I have been pondering this week...so surprised to see this thread.   My concerns were related to those who ask "when did you become a christian" and the responses were either conversion through the RCC or orthodox church, and/or baptism as infants.  There are people who just were raised to be christians and took over these reins at confirmation (age of accountability).  They didn't have an altar call (as I understand it) experience with crying and sorrow...they just held firm to the truth all their lives.  Dunno.  So, they don't have a  particular moment of turning around per se.  A little off-topic...but not much.


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## Nice & Wavy (Jul 25, 2010)

[FONT=Arial,Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There  exists a certain degree of hypocrisy among us.  What I mean is, without  qualms, we condemn the world for not being Christian, yet without  remorse we accept we are not Christlike.  [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I  am not saying we shouldn't cry out against evil; sin exists and we must  reprove it. However, at some point we must recognize there is more to  our destiny than judging sin AND judging those who do judge sin. God is looking for the perfection of mercy  within us. *"Mercy triumphs over judgment"* (James 2:13), and to follow  Christ is to walk the path of mercy toward full redemption. 

[/FONT][/FONT]  [FONT=Arial,Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Recall  the words of Paul. He tells us to *"Have this attitude in yourselves  which was also in Christ Jesus"* (Phil. 2:5). He goes on to explain that  Christ existed in the form of God, yet He emptied Himself, took the form  of a man, and died for our sins. In other words, He saw the need, but  instead of condemning man, He died for man. Paul says we are to have  this same attitude in us. [/FONT][/FONT]
 [FONT=Arial,Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
I  do not want to be a typical American Christian. I am hungry for more. I  want to *"grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head [of the  church], even Christ"* (Eph. 4:15). Our call is to attain *"the measure of  the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ"*. [/FONT][/FONT]

 [FONT=Arial,Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jesus  said, *"As the Father has sent Me, I also send you"* (John 20:21).  As  Christ was sent into the world to pay the price for sin, so in following  Him we become a society of redeemers. When wounded, we forgive; when  forced to go one mile, we go two.  We bless those who curse us and turn  the other cheek to those who strike us.  As Christ hung on the cross at  Calvary and prayed, *"Father, forgive them . . ." *(Luke 23:34), so we  stand before God and, on behalf of our sinful world, we pray the mercy  prayer as well. [/FONT][/FONT]

 [FONT=Arial,Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I  am convinced that the more Christlike the church becomes, the greater  will be the backing of Heaven. The more we become a society of  redeemers, the more hope we have to see our nation turned back to God. (Francis Frangipane)

No matter what it looks like to anyone, there are people who are serving the Lord with a true heart, and are leading people to Christ like never before.  What we must do, is do what Our Father has told us to do and not listen to the counsel of those who don't know Jesus as Savior and Lord of all!

[/FONT][/FONT]*“Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. “These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”  So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed.*  Mark 16: 15 - 20 NASB

N&W


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## tarheelgurl (Jul 25, 2010)

WOW! NiceandWavy you just put it down when you wrote this! I appreciate all of what you have just written and hope you continue to inspire me. Thank you!!



Nice & Wavy said:


> [FONT=Arial,Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There exists a certain degree of hypocrisy among us. What I mean is, without qualms, we condemn the world for not being Christian, yet without remorse we accept we are not Christlike. [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I am not saying we shouldn't cry out against evil; sin exists and we must reprove it. However, at some point we must recognize there is more to our destiny than judging sin AND judging those who do judge sin. God is looking for the perfection of mercy within us. *"Mercy triumphs over judgment"* (James 2:13), and to follow Christ is to walk the path of mercy toward full redemption. [/FONT]
> 
> [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Recall the words of Paul. He tells us to *"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus"* (Phil. 2:5). He goes on to explain that Christ existed in the form of God, yet He emptied Himself, took the form of a man, and died for our sins. In other words, He saw the need, but instead of condemning man, He died for man. Paul says we are to have this same attitude in us. [/FONT][/FONT]
> [FONT=Arial,Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica]
> ...


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## SND411 (Jul 26, 2010)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> Yes, and not perpetrate it. Someone made mention of missionaries telling others the errors of their religions, even christian orthodoxy. I've had second-hand experience of this, witnessing how this works. *How can one go to a country that has been christian for 2,000 years and tell its countrymen they are not the "right" kind of christians? erplexed *
> 
> This issue is so multi-faceted. Anyway, who has a link to the original thread and/or article???


 
Does it matter how long a country has been Christian? Perhaps that just gives the church more time to mess things up. God is not a respector of persons, and has repeatedly stated in his Word how people who were supposed to know Him best forsook Him time and time again. 

It seems both sides may have an ego problem.


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## 8HoursFromHome (Jul 26, 2010)

How about this scenario:

A group of people exist.  There comes a time when there is a low birth rate among them.  The elders/leaders of this group see that and encourage the practice of allowing the women to have multiple male partners.  This practice increases the number of babies born to the group, thus increasing their numbers, saving them from extinction.

Christian missionaries invade this group, see this behavior and do everything in their power to stop this practice because it's not Christian.  

This group is doing what it needs to do to save themselves from extinction.  Is it right for the Christians to interfere?


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## uniquely made (Jul 26, 2010)

God's main concern is that you're saved spiritually and not ending up in hell.  That's the purpose of the missionaries, chuches and Christian teaching.  He also knows that we all have sinned and will continue to sin.  But He sent His son Jesus Christ to die on the cross because of our sins.  He covers our sins and they aren't held against us ( immediate), if we ask Him to forgive us and turn from our sinful ways.  Sometimes this is an immediate action, sometimes it's a process.  Once you give your live to Him and choose to follow His ways, he begins to teach you a new way of life.  Things you used to do no longer feel OK.  Things you used to say, no longer are Ok in your heart.  Not just because somebody told you.  SPIRITUALLY you become awake.  You're BORN AGAIN.  This is the purpose of misssion work.  Of course, sometimes missionaries Im sure get off track and begin to focus on human works instead of keeping their focus on God as Im sure all Christians have done.  Im guilty of that myself.  You see so much that's wrong and you want to fix and save everyone.  But Gods order is for us to bring them the message and let the Holy Spirit work in that person.  Some will accept Him, some won't.  

Some people aren't given the opportunity to know about God because of where they live or how they were brought up.  But god raises up people to reach them.  Even in our very intelligent information filled country.  I grew up going to church, but I don't remember them teaching about Jesus or salvation.  I remember being asked if I wanted to be baptized (not a baptist church) so that I could go to heaven.  I was about 7 or 8 and I finally did it in fear of not going to heaven.  But I was also afraid of going in the pool of water.  I still didn't know about Jesus other that seeing a few "pics" of HIm.  I eventually stopped going to this church because even as a child I felt the church was legalistic.  Everything was about how you dressed, if you wore make-up, if you wore jewelry, what you ate.  All outer characteristics.  Even before I knew God, I knew something was wrong with this theory about a loving God.  Was that all He cared about?  I went through my teens questioning if he really existed.  Rationalizing everything I knew to be real.  How could He be real?  With so much distruction and "bad people".  Why doesn't he just fix things?  I would have.  Then when I was about 22, in the middle of my messy life, God made himself real to ME.  My eyes were opened and I began to feel and see the world differently.  I began to see God in everyting I heard and did.  Before I just lived and had no real awareness of Him, as He really was.  I didn't know about any eternal consequences.  Now I knew his name and had this book to tell me all about him.  Just like anybody else He wants you to KNOW HIm.  Like you know your parents, children, friends.  I still sin , but know Im aware of how my actions, seen and unseen affect me and others and how God feels about them.  And just like my parents, I don't want to disappoint Him.  He always has my best interest at heart.  Even when I don't understand.  I want to please Him.


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## CoilyFields (Jul 26, 2010)

displacedcreole said:


> How about this scenario:
> 
> A group of people exist. There comes a time when there is a low birth rate among them. The elders/leaders of this group see that and encourage the practice of allowing the women to have multiple male partners. This practice increases the number of babies born to the group, thus increasing their numbers, saving them from extinction.
> 
> ...


 

The great commission was for EVERY believer to go out and spread the gospel to the ends of the earth.
This is the Gospel: Sinful man needed a savior. Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, was crucified, buried, and ressurected, paying the penalty for our sins (death) and gifted us with salvation. 

It is our responsibility to reach the masses...regardless of if we are perfect or not (that is the GIFT of salvation...you get it without earning it...can never really deserve it). The are certain believers/evangelists who are called out to be missionaries...to spread the gospel to remote places that otherwise wouldnt recieve the gift of eternal life. 

It doesnt matter how long theyve been worshipping other gods (satan) or practicing witchcraft or other sacred abominations...my desire is for their souls to be saved and I would be basterdizing the Word of God if I compromised it to fit into their ungodly practices (if they have some that expressly go against Gods word). We must believe in the absolute truth of the word of God. We cannot confuse tolerance for acceptance. Tolerance=you have the right to choose your own beliefs and I love you regardless, Acceptance=your religion is just as right as mine is...if you (general you)  believe that then you really must go examine your claim to christianity.

Think of sin as the disease of malaria. You go in and see this remote culture dying of malaria...trying to treat it with local remedies that actually make the person sicker and gaurantee death.  You have the cure and vaccine for malaria...you would do all you could to get them to recieve this "gift of life".  Yes, it is different from what theyre used to(needles and such) and they may very well reject it but YOU know that it is what they need. Your first priority is to get them to accept the cure/vaccine...LATER you work on showing them how "certain" aspects of their lifestyles are contributing to the spreading of the disease (dirty water etc)...Now just because you gave them the cure/vaccine doesnt mean that youre the healthiest person in the world...you may be overweight, dont wash your hands a lot lol etc...but you just offer them the cure and let it do the work in them that is still happening in you.

Sooooooooooooo to answer your question lol...God has deemed incest wrong in the old testament. (We know that it was previously acceptable to populate the earth and there were not the mutations that occur as a result today...so when it was no longer necessary...God odered it to cease and has never recanted that). This goes for everybody from that time forward. If they want their culture to survive...find a way to do it without going against the word of God! (Notice that the saving of their souls is the primary issue...show them other errors later on...gently, we dont force anything...the word will do the work as they learn)

Disclaimer: The scripture quoted about Paul was right on! There is a way to reach people that is not condescending, forceful or "westernizing" them. Adapt without compromise...

Also...historically it was not usually the missionaries that came in and did the damage...it was the explorers and settlers out for monetary gain that followed the missionaries that mistreated most natives. Nowadays those explorers/settlers are in the form of corporations out to exploit.


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## Guitarhero (Jul 26, 2010)

SND411 said:


> Does it matter how long a country has been Christian? Perhaps that just gives the church more time to mess things up. God is not a respector of persons, and has repeatedly stated in his Word how people who were supposed to know Him best forsook Him time and time again.
> 
> It seems both sides may have an ego problem.




Sorry, but it's like a Reform Jew going to an Orthodox Jew and telling him what halacha (Jewish law) truly means.  erplexed  No ego except on the part of the prots who regularly proselytize family and friends.  They tell people that their brand of ancient christianity is wrong and that they are living a lie and going to hell.  look:


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## SND411 (Jul 26, 2010)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> Sorry, but it's like a Reform Jew going to an Orthodox Jew and telling him what halacha (Jewish law) truly means.  erplexed  No ego except on the part of the prots who regularly proselytize family and friends.  *They tell people that their brand of ancient christianity is wrong and that they are living a lie and going to hell.* look:



Well, what if it is wrong?  Many (not all) so-called ancient churches have been riddled with man-made doctrine and traditions that have no BEARING whatsoever on one's salvation, the Word of God, nor have anything to do with the *love* of God. Like Revelations revealed, Christ can have a problem with ANY church regardless of how old it is. 

If God claims to freely give wisdom to anybody (including those a part of a church that popped up five minutes ago), then I don't see how Christians can't discuss the values of true faith with other churches. 

Plus, it shouldn't be ancient churches vs the new churches. Aren't we suppose to be one body and therefore one mind?


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## Guitarhero (Jul 27, 2010)

SND411 said:


> Well, what if it is wrong?  Many (not all) so-called ancient churches have been riddled with man-made doctrine and traditions that have no BEARING whatsoever on one's salvation, the Word of God, nor have anything to do with the *love* of God. Like Revelations revealed, Christ can have a problem with ANY church regardless of how old it is.
> 
> If God claims to freely give wisdom to anybody (including those a part of a church that popped up five minutes ago), then I don't see how Christians can't discuss the values of true faith with other churches.
> 
> Plus, it shouldn't be ancient churches vs the new churches. Aren't we suppose to be one body and therefore one mind?




That is an arrogant assumption. This is precisely why many of those people and myself are wary of "missionaries."  Who are they to tell the ancient church directly descended from the apostles as commissioned by Christ that they are wrong?    They are not treating them as one body...they are treating them as misinformed and they couldn't be further from the truth.


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## LovingLady (Jul 27, 2010)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> That is an arrogant assumption. This is precisely why many of those people and myself are wary of "missionaries."  Who are they to tell the ancient church directly descended from the apostles they are wrong?    They are not treating them as one body...they are treating them as misinformed and they couldn't be further from the truth.



I think she was referring to ancient church in the sense of time, not churches that were founded by the apostles. Even if a church was founded by an apostle there is still room for error. The apostles are not going to be around forever and once they are gone someone with a corrupt mind and heart could lie their way to the top and change the order of things (God forbid that this would happen). The important thing is that we should be able to communicate with people, show them what they are doing is wrong, and back it up with the Bible. God said to love his people, when you love someone you will correct and let them know when they are making a mistake.


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## Guitarhero (Jul 27, 2010)

Abdijz said:


> I think she was referring to ancient church in the sense of time, not churches that were founded by the apostles. Even if a church was founded by an apostle there is still room for error. The apostles are not going to be around forever and once they are gone someone with a corrupt mind and heart could lie their way to the top and change the order of things (God forbid that this would happen). The important thing is that we should be able to communicate with people, show them what they are doing is wrong, and back it up with the Bible. God said to love his people, when you love someone you will correct and let them know when they are making a mistake.




I've heard practically all the arguments and I think she is touching upon something else.  The church period...founded upon the apostles sent out to found them.  You can't have the church in ancient times not founded upon the apostles.  I think that a little church history could clarify that point about corrupt people after.  There were councils and such...but tradition as taught and passed on (it means scripture and tradition from Christ and kept traditions in Judaism) from the apostles were also taught to those directly under them.  This is how there are vicars or popes, cardinals, bishops, priests and ministers.  My post was very clear...people are telling folks who have been christian for 2,000 years that they are going to hell and to change to a new interpretation of the church minus the sacrificial eucharist.  Now, how is somebody going to tell another who is steeped in the way as instituted by Christ and holding fast to it where he is wrong????  I think that this is the point being missed.  

And just to bring this more central and personal, families have been broken, harmed, fights, etc. erupted from this kind of thing.  I've witnessed it. Then some want to put a spiel that Jesus divides between those who will follow Him and between those who will not...this was man dividing and creating strife.   And to make sure that I'm not being misunderstood, I hated the fact of the crusades and missionizing by the catholics, particularly in the past.  None of this missioninzing, imho, had a darned thing to do with Christ.  It was about economic gain through conquest and far too often, they are spy tools and scouts for raw materials used today in various countries.  Not saying all...but it does exist.  The point is deciphering true gospel witnessing like Black Robe and those the likes of Pat Robertson.

My greatest concern in this discussion, no transparency.  It took the church centuries to address the various abuses (I'm not distinguishing protestant/orthodox here) it has committed.  In most recent times, sexual abuse.  Now most christians feel confident enough in their faith to talk against it and not fear they are insulting Jesus personally.  When will the same happen concerning the missionaries?  That is my point.


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## SND411 (Jul 27, 2010)

Volver_Alma_Gitana said:


> That is an arrogant assumption. *This is precisely why many of those people and myself are wary of "missionaries."  Who are they to tell the ancient church directly descended from the apostles as commissioned by Christ that they are wrong?*   They are not treating them as one body...they are treating them as misinformed and they couldn't be further from the truth.



This kind of thinking was what made it so hard for Jesus to get His message through some of the Pharisees. They believed since they were blood descendents of Abraham, they were automatically righteous, above reproach, and therefore dared anyone, including the Son of God Himself, to question their practices. In a way, Jesus WAS the new guy on the block speaking to an establishment way older than He Earthly was.

The ancient church is NOT God and therefore are not perfect.   

And remember, many of the churches in Revelations descended from the Apostles, but Christ still had complaints against these communities. Weren't some of them even destroyed? Food for Thought.


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## Laela (Jul 28, 2010)

Timely....  In our Bible study last night we read Romans 9, which speaks resoundingly to what you just said:

*Romans 9*

 1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 
 2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 
 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 
 4 Who  are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the  covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the  promises; 
 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. 
 6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect.* For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: *
* 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.* 
* 8 That  is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the  children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the  seed. *
* 9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. *
* 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; *
* 11 (For  the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil,  that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works,  but of him that calleth;  ) *
 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 
 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 
 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 
 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 
 16* So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. *
* 17 For  the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I  raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name  might be declared throughout all the earth. *
* 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. *
 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 
 20 Nay  but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing  formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 
 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 
 22 What  if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured  with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 
 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 
 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 
 2*5** As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. *
 26* And  it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them,  Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the  living God. *
 27 Esaias  also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of  Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 
 28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. 
 29 And  as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed,  we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. 
 30 What  shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after  righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness  which is of faith. 
 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 
 32 Wherefore?  Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the  law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 
* 33As  it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of  offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.*




SND411 said:


> This kind of thinking was what made it so hard for Jesus to get His message through some of the Pharisees. They believed since they were blood descendents of Abraham, they were automatically righteous, above reproach, and therefore dared anyone, including the Son of God Himself, to question their practices. In a way, Jesus WAS the new guy on the block speaking to an establishment way older than He Earthly was.
> 
> The ancient church is NOT God and therefore are not perfect.
> 
> And remember, many of the churches in Revelations descended from the Apostles, but Christ still had complaints against these communities. Weren't some of them even destroyed? Food for Thought.


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## Guitarhero (Jul 28, 2010)

SND411 said:


> This kind of thinking was what made it so hard for Jesus to get His message through some of the Pharisees. They believed since they were blood descendents of Abraham, they were automatically righteous, above reproach, and therefore dared anyone, including the Son of God Himself, to question their practices. In a way, Jesus WAS the new guy on the block speaking to an establishment way older than He Earthly was.
> 
> The ancient church is NOT God and therefore are not perfect.
> 
> And remember, many of the churches in Revelations descended from the Apostles, but Christ still had complaints against these communities. Weren't some of them even destroyed? Food for Thought.





Sigh...I truly think study on the history of  the  church would shed light on this topic.  They are following exactly how Jesus laid it down.  But of course, someone else takes offense when it's not their church (missionaries) and they wish to change them.  It's not about them not finding salvation, they eat and drink Him weekly, some daily.  You can't get any closer physically and spiritually to Jesus and I'll leave it to that.  The orthodox will know what I'm talking about.  Others, not so much.  

Let's bring this central to the U.S.  Say there is a baptist church and some pentecostal comes to this neighborhood and proselytizes those who attend, telling them they are blind and going to hell because they wear pants and truly don't know Jesus.  They should not watch t.v. on Sunday or better yet, they should have Saturday as the Sabbath or go to hell.  Shrugs.  Does that make sense now?  What if they attacked the evangelicals?  The methodists?  What if those attacked the pentecostals?  This is arrogance and haughtiness and has nothing at all to do with Jesus.  He is the way.  What if somebody said that you can't use the NIV but only KJV?  Vice versa?  It's brother against brother.  There is no such need for this yet it exists.  And I'm sincerely telling you that there are many missionary organizations that are nothing more than spy nests.  Perhaps some of the participants are innocent...the lady in Haiti who detained for "kidnapping" kids?  Nobody else was truly aware of her previous actions in the DR and Haiti.  Sigh....sigh....alas.

And unrelated yet pertinent, when I think of the failures of this u.s. govt., I have to look back on the founding fathers and their philosophies which were based upon racist untruths.  That is the source of much of the failure.  So if I apply this to this type of false missionizing, I'm able to see more clearly just how wrong many of them are in coercing others to believe in a level of Jesus they themselves simply haven't yet found.


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## missusM (Aug 1, 2010)

luthiengirlie said:


> HONESTLY i don't think you read my other post further down. I think you read my FIRST post and reacted.




sorry, if i did that,, i'm was tryiing to get to everything but must have missed some.  I see the discussion has moved on from that however.. 

Like you say it is interesting that they use the term "savage" in this day and age, its downright archaic.  ok i'm gonna read the rest and just watch...


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## missusM (Aug 1, 2010)

tarheelgurl, was the DEtroit thing a jab at me? i just read that comment.. i was like who what did where now...?????
1. i'm not from Detroit, i live here ( temporarily), i'm from the UK.
2. I might only be passing through but i can bet my last dollar that whoever said that Detroit was full of savages was a white redneck with a lot of hate in em
3. you dont need to send Christians here , its full of em

wowser


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## Shimmie (Feb 21, 2011)

displacedcreole said:


> I'm not lumping anyone together.
> 
> I'm asking other Christians how they feel about *these* particular groups of Christians behavior regarding their invasion of a non-Christian group for their (supposed) benefit.



*First of all...* The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof and they and ALL that dwell therein.  (Psalm 24:1)   For He hath founded it upon the seas and established it upon the floods.  

Who shall ascend into His holy place?  He that hath clean hands and a pure heart....

They are committing this activity on God's earth... not theirs.  

*Second:*   We have been commanded by Jesus (who is God), to go into ALL the world and preach the Gospel.   

Obviously this culture has been taken over by the enemy's deception and is misplacing the natural use of the body.   

One thing I don't understand is why are the folks who defend this culture's behaviour, calling them savages?

Why deprive them of knowing the love of God and entering into His holy hill?   It's more selfish and quite cruel to allow them to drown in their sin and not have a chance to know Jesus and the life God intended for them to have.


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## Crown (Feb 22, 2011)

displacedcreole said:


> How about this scenario:
> 
> A group of people exist.  There comes a time when there is a low birth rate among them.  The elders/leaders of this group see that and *encourage the practice of allowing the women to have multiple male partners*.  This practice increases the number of babies born to the group, thus increasing their numbers, saving them from extinction.
> 
> ...



I don’t understand this scenario : allowing the women to have multiple male partners to increase the population?!?
Why do this? 


Unless impotence, infertility or contraception, a husband is fully able to get his wife pregnant every 1-2 years, like for our grandparents.
...............

[FONT=&quot]Jude 1: 23 save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.[/FONT]


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