# Ya'll The Asians in the Supreme Court Tryna Get Rid of Affirmative Action.



## Crackers Phinn (Oct 31, 2022)

So, this is a thing that's happening in real time.  I have not seen any black blogs discussing this. 

​Takeaways from SCOTUS affirmative action cases: Conservatives may overturn precedent allowing race as a factor in admissions​The Supreme Court is poised to say that colleges and universities can no longer take race into consideration in admissions programs, a decision that will likely overturn decades-old precedent *and could diminish the number of African American and Hispanic students in higher education.*

During a marathon session lasting almost five hours, the justices heard from a total of five lawyers. Three argued on behalf of Harvard and the University of North Carolina. Two others – both former clerks to Justice Clarence Thomas – argued for the conservative group Students for Fair Admissions behind the challenge.

With a 6-3 conservative-liberal majority, the question may be not whether the court will strike down affirmative action, but how far it will rule.


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## Evolving78 (Nov 1, 2022)

I listened to the arguments and the conservatives were a hot mess with their questions and one of them took a cheap shot at Elizabeth Warren.  They didn’t mention her name, but they brought up that claiming NA ancestry shenanigans.


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## Chicoro (Nov 1, 2022)

Crackers Phinn said:


> So, this is a thing that's happening in real time.  I have not seen any black blogs discussing this.
> 
> ​Takeaways from SCOTUS affirmative action cases: Conservatives may overturn precedent allowing race as a factor in admissions​The Supreme Court is poised to say that colleges and universities can no longer take race into consideration in admissions programs, a decision that will likely overturn decades-old precedent *and could diminish the number of African American and Hispanic students in higher education.*
> 
> ...


@Crackers Phinn 
What are your thoughts on this? The impact? The probability of it happening? Your analysis skills are razor sharp.


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## Peppermynt (Nov 1, 2022)

My personal opinion - its gonna happen. This is like the right to an abortion in that the collective "we" messed around and acted like voting was optional which has allowed us to get to what is likely a foregone conclusion with affirmative action. It's happening right now in Georgia with the hot mess that is HW being >this< close to a senate seat.

I swear, the older I get the more disillusioned I get with what's happening here in this country. Not just by dewhytes but by us as well. Because everything at the end of the day is tribal - it's who we are as a species. So why shouldn't Asian communities align to push the end of something that they think will further their community? Problem is that WE cannot afford *not* to be aligned because lots of rights are being (and will be) slashed. It's all fun, games and memes til they finally take away the right to vote for *certain* communities. (Don't think it will happen? Watch.) And wait til the GQP gets a majority and see what they do to social security and medicare.


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## Evolving78 (Nov 1, 2022)

Peppermynt said:


> My personal opinion - its gonna happen. This is like the right to an abortion in that the collective "we" messed around and acted like voting was optional which has allowed us to get to what is likely a foregone conclusion with affirmative action. It's happening right now in Georgia with the hot mess that is HW being >this< close to a senate seat.
> 
> I swear, the older I get the more disillusioned I get with what's happening here in this country. Not just by dewhytes but by us as well. Because everything at the end of the day is tribal - it's who we are as a species. So why shouldn't Asian communities align to push the end of something that they think will further their community? Problem is that WE cannot afford *not* to be aligned because lots of rights are being (and will be) slashed. It's all fun, games and memes til they finally take away the right to vote for *certain* communities. (Don't think it will happen? Watch.) And wait til the GQP gets a majority and see what they do to social security and medicare.


I agree with what you said and have made similar statements years ago. It’s not about if it happens, but when it happens. I wish we could have an open conversation…


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## Evolving78 (Nov 1, 2022)

Crackers Phinn said:


> So, this is a thing that's happening in real time.  I have not seen any black blogs discussing this.
> 
> ​Takeaways from SCOTUS affirmative action cases: Conservatives may overturn precedent allowing race as a factor in admissions​The Supreme Court is poised to say that colleges and universities can no longer take race into consideration in admissions programs, a decision that will likely overturn decades-old precedent *and could diminish the number of African American and Hispanic students in higher education.*
> 
> ...


I think Asians are getting used and played to fit the agenda of others that want to do away with AA. Two of uncle ruckus’s former clerks argued against AA. Uncle Ruckus wants to dismantle all rights for black people and feels black people need to start from scratch, not depending on anything yt people had their hands in to pull their bootstraps up.


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## awhyley (Nov 1, 2022)

I can't watch the vid at work.  What's happening?  It thought that AA would benefit them as well as other persons of color.  
Is this similar to schools placing a cap on the number of asians accepted at college?


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## Black Ambrosia (Nov 1, 2022)

awhyley said:


> I can't watch the vid at work.  What's happening?  It thought that AA would benefit them as well as other persons of color.
> Is this similar to schools placing a cap on the number of asians accepted at college?


I haven’t watched the video either but I’m guessing this is about asians suing colleges claiming that affirmative action is hurting them because they have the test scores to be admitted but lower scoring black students are getting those spots. I’m not sure if their minority status is coming into play because they may be considered overrepresented. They should be going after legacy students instead. This is really peak entitlement.


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## ScorpioBeauty09 (Nov 1, 2022)

On Twitter I notice a number of tweets saying most Asians are for AA and this suit is  about white conservatives trying to pit Asians against blacks/Latinos. White women better get ready. They benefited a lot from AA.


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## Everything Zen (Nov 1, 2022)

I’m all for it because there’s gonna be a lot of hit dogs hollering in these streets.

Black folks have always figured out how to survive and thrive. We’ll be just fine.


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## yamilee21 (Nov 1, 2022)

Actually, these cases are brought by Edward Blum, an unpleasant character who has made ending affirmative action one of his life’s missions. He basically is using a few gullible Asians as the face of this, but support isn’t universal among Asians - quite a few are well aware that they are being used. I’ll see if I can find a few links about that aspect.

The NY Times published this timely article today, nothing really new to us as black people probably, but I’m glad they chose to highlight this right now.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/01/...ytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare


Asian American Students Face Bias, but It’s Not What You Might Think​By Jennifer Lee

Dr. Lee is a sociology professor at Columbia University and a 2022-23 member of the Institute for Advanced Study. She is a co-author of “The Asian American Achievement Paradox.”


Affirmative action is on trial again. This time, opponents of race-conscious college admission practices are claiming that Asian Americans are hurt by it. The plaintiffs in Students for Fair Admissions Inc. v. President & Fellows of Harvard College, which presented oral arguments before the Supreme Court on Monday, allege that Harvard holds Asian American applicants to higher academic standards and rates them lower than other students on personal characteristics, such as fit, courage and likability. The proposed solution is to abandon race as a factor in admissions decisions.

This approach is based on a fundamental misconception. Asian Americans face bias in education, but not in the direction the plaintiffs claim. Research that I and others have done shows that K-12 teachers and schools may actually give Asian Americans a boost based on assumptions about race. Affirmative action policies currently in place in university admissions do not account for the positive bias that Asian Americans may experience before they apply to college. Abandoning race as a consideration in admissions would further obscure this bias.

The surge in violence against Asian Americans in the United States since the onset of the coronavirus pandemic is clear evidence that they are the targets of pernicious discrimination. Going back much further than the pandemic, U.S. history is fraught with anti-Asian violence and nativist discrimination, including decades of exclusion from immigration and citizenship that kept the Asian American population at a mere 0.6 percent of the country’s total as late as 1960, according to the Pew Research Center.

But in an educational context, those biases play out in very unexpected ways. In “The Asian American Achievement Paradox,” which I wrote with Min Zhou and is based on 162 interviews of Asian, Hispanic, Black and white adults in Los Angeles, we found that Asian American precollege students benefit from “stereotype promise”: Teachers assume they are smart, hard-working, high-achieving and morally deserving, which can boost the grades of academically mediocre Asian American students.

We found that teachers’ positive biases of Asian American students sometimes led them to place even low-achieving Asian American students on competitive academic tracks, including honors and Advanced Placement classes that can be gateways to competitive four-year universities. Once there, we found that these students took their schoolwork more seriously, spent more time on their homework than they had previously and were placed in classes with high-achieving peers, thereby boosting their academic outcomes.

A Vietnamese American student I’ll call Ophelia (all names have been changed to protect participants’ privacy under ethical research guidelines) described herself as “not very intelligent” and recalled nearly being held back in second grade because of her poor academic performance. Ophelia had a C average throughout elementary and junior high school, and when she took an exam to be put in Advanced Placement classes for high school English and science, she failed. Ophelia’s teachers placed her, with her mother’s support, on the AP track anyway. Once there, she said that something “just clicked,” and she began to excel in her classes.

“I wanted to work hard and prove I was a good student,” Ophelia explained. “I think the competition kind of increases your want to do better.” She graduated from high school with a grade-point average of 4.2 (exceeding a perfect 4.0) and was admitted into a highly competitive pharmacy program. Ophelia’s performance was precisely what her teachers expected, so they did not have to confront the role they may have played in reproducing the stereotype of Asian American exceptionalism.

Ophelia’s experience is not unique. In our research, we found numerous examples of Asian American students who were anointed as promising by their teachers, even in spite of weak grades and test scores.

None of the white, Black or Hispanic adults we interviewed were treated similarly. Hispanic students in particular experience the opposite effect in school, as my work with Estela Diaz shows. The Hispanic students we studied received little encouragement from their teachers to attend college and even less information about how to get in.

The sociologist Sean J. Drake drew on two years of ethnographic research in a highly ranked Southern California high school and found a similar positive bias toward Asian American students: “I don’t necessarily look at my classroom and treat a kid differently because they are Asian, but I know that if I have an Asian student in my classroom, I can count on that student. That student will probably work hard and be engaged. I can rely on that kid, and the parents, more so than I can for other groups,” one teacher told him.

Teachers’ positive biases toward Asian students affect their assessment of white, Black and Hispanic students, too. The economists Ying Shi and Maria Zhu looked at the standardized test scores of public school students in North Carolina and compared them to teachers’ judgments of the same students. In research the economists presented at a National Bureau of Economic Research conference this spring, they found persistent Asian-white disparities in teacher ratings. Teachers are significantly more likely to rate Asian students’ skills higher relative to their standardized test scores compared to similarly performing white peers in the same class, even after adjusting for sociodemographic and behavioral measures.

Dr. Shi and Dr. Zhu also found that the presence of a single Asian student in a class amplifies teachers’ negative assessments of Black and Hispanic students vis-à-vis white students. Research in education typically focuses on Black-white or Hispanic-white achievement gaps and pays little or no attention to Asian Americans. But these new lines of research show how much more we learn about the ways race affects achievement when we include Asian Americans in our studies. They also show what we get wrong when we exclude them.

Asian Americans made up 6 percent of the U.S. population in 2020, and 27.6 percent of Harvard’s class of 2026. Students for Fair Admissions argues that number would be even higher if admissions were based on objective, meritocratic metrics, unconstrained by race. But the research my colleagues and I have done shows that some of the metrics that are most commonly cited as objective indicators of academic talent and effort — things like teachers’ assessments and grades — are subject to bias and woven into the educational system well before students apply to college.

Asian American students who have earned admission to Harvard are smart, promising and have no doubt worked very hard. But in ways that are most likely not visible to them, they may have also benefited from their racial status long before they applied. Race-conscious policies provide a mechanism to address this and other biases, and help level the field of opportunity for a diverse student body.


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## yamilee21 (Nov 1, 2022)

Black Ambrosia said:


> They should be going after legacy students instead.


Legacies and the unqualified children of big donor$ (e.g., Jared Kushner).


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## yamilee21 (Nov 1, 2022)

A few related articles…









						Meet Edward Blum, the Man Who Wants to Kill Affirmative Action in Higher Education | News & Commentary | American Civil Liberties Union
					





					www.aclu.org
				












						The Supreme Court could end affirmative action in higher ed. Here’s how it might affect local schools.
					

The court will hear two cases Monday challenging affirmative action in college admissions. A June decision could impact admissions next fall.




					www.wbez.org
				












						Asian Americans in College Admissions: Plaintiffs or Pawns? | Harvard Independent
					

“The primary victims” of race-conscious admissions “are now Asian Americans,” claims the Students for Fair Admissions in a supplemental brief filed to the Supreme Court in December asking the high court to ban colleges that consider applicants’ race from receiving federal funding. However, a...




					harvardindependent.com
				












						You Didn’t Get Rejected Because You’re Asian
					

Tweet I remember applying for a leadership position alongside a white male friend. When the results came out that I was chosen and he was not, there was no congratulations. Instead, he told me, a Chinese American woman, “They probably didn’t choose me because I’m a white male and they’re looking...




					thegatorseye.com


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## Crackers Phinn (Nov 1, 2022)

Chicoro said:


> @Crackers Phinn
> What are your thoughts on this? The impact? The probability of it happening? Your analysis skills are razor sharp.





Peppermynt said:


> My personal opinion - its gonna happen. This is like the right to an abortion in that the collective "we" messed around and acted like voting was optional which has allowed us to get to what is likely a foregone conclusion with affirmative action. It's happening right now in Georgia with the hot mess that is HW being >this< close to a senate seat.
> 
> I swear, the older I get the more disillusioned I get with what's happening here in this country. Not just by dewhytes but by us as well. Because everything at the end of the day is tribal - it's who we are as a species. So why shouldn't Asian communities align to push the end of something that they think will further their community? Problem is that WE cannot afford *not* to be aligned because lots of rights are being (and will be) slashed. It's all fun, games and memes til they finally take away the right to vote for *certain* communities. (Don't think it will happen? Watch.) And wait til the GQP gets a majority and see what they do to social security and medicare.


@Chicoro @Peppermynt stated my thoughts.   As soon as abortion got thrown out by the Supreme Court, I figured every single thing that benefits black folks (whether they see it as a benefit or not) is out the window.    Asians are not being used by white folks.  They coming for white folks spots, they coming for black and hispanic folks spots, they want all the spots because they are acting in their own self-interest. Now white people ain't go take this sitting down, they will go along with striking down affirmative action and continue to do what they do and change the rules to benefit themselves. 

Like I said, if Trump get back in office I'ma be in Israel hoping ya'll be ok.


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## Chicoro (Nov 1, 2022)

@Crackers Phinn 
Thank you for responding to my request.


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## Crackers Phinn (Nov 1, 2022)

yamilee21 said:


> Actually, these cases are brought by Edward Blum, an unpleasant character who has made ending affirmative action one of his life’s missions. He basically is using a few gullible Asians as the face of this, but support isn’t universal among Asians - quite a few are well aware that they are being used. I’ll see if I can find a few links about that aspect.
> 
> The NY Times published this timely article today, nothing really new to us as black people probably, but I’m glad they chose to highlight this right now.
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/01/...ytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
> ...


I don't dispute that Edward Blum may be the instigator, but white and Asian people are both prepared for the outcome of supreme court appointees born out of "what about her emails".    Black Americans in the middle class and lower in the upcoming generations are no less  by the outcome. 

I heard a recording of Dr Umar on Clubhouse yesterday talking about reparations.  With this supreme court?  Good luck.


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## Evolving78 (Nov 1, 2022)

Crackers Phinn said:


> @Chicoro @Peppermynt stated my thoughts.   As soon as abortion got thrown out by the Supreme Court, I figured every single thing that benefits black folks (whether they see it as a benefit or not) is out the window.    Asians are not being used by white folks.  They coming for white folks spots, they coming for black and hispanic folks spots, they want all the spots because they are acting in their own self-interest. Now white people ain't go take this sitting down, they will go along with striking down affirmative action and continue to do what they do and change the rules to benefit themselves.
> 
> Like I said, if Trump get back in office I'ma be in Israel hoping ya'll be ok.


I think it will be Desatan or Cheney. I think she might run. Trump is bad business for them at this point.


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## Everything Zen (Nov 1, 2022)

IMO I think it might lay to rest the whole you’re an affirmative action hire because I don’t be seeing incompetent negroes in my line of work or when I went to school. My dad told me I’d half to work twice as hard to get half as far. In my experience, it was more like 4 times that and the gap only widens the higher up the ladder I climb. They didn’t come up with the term “Black Girl Magic” for nothing. Good luck to all the basic  - we’ll see who really needs affirmation.


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## Crackers Phinn (Nov 1, 2022)

Everything Zen said:


> IMO I think it might lay to rest the whole you’re an affirmative action hire because I don’t be seeing incompetent negroes in my line of work or when I went to school. My dad told me I’d half to work twice as hard to get half as far. In my experience, it was more like 4 times that and the gap only widens the higher up the ladder I climb. They didn’t come up with the term “Black Girl Magic” for nothing. Good luck to all the basic  - we’ll see who really needs affirmation.


It's not about incompetence, it's about black folks having a tie breaker or an ace in our pockets the other players don't have that is going to go bye bye.   I don't want black folks (me) to lose ANY advantage because it's not like it's guaranteed something will replace it or when another advantage pops up.


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## Everything Zen (Nov 1, 2022)

^^^ I don’t WANT it to happen. I agree with your analysis. I’m just over fighting for, voting for, and screaming in the wind for rights that we obviously just don’t seem to really want. I’se tied. You’ll be in Israel and I’ll be likely be in Canada or the EU hoping it works out for folks.


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## Keen (Nov 1, 2022)

This is beyond school admissions.  Those who are been used will soon find out.  You can get your Ivy League education.  But employment in most states is at will.  What legal precedings will you use to sue when you are the most qualified but didn’t get the job?

Schools can still choose to use whatever scale they want for admission.  I don’t see this changing anything with school admissions.  I see it unraveling affirmative action


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## Cruisin90 (Nov 1, 2022)

No, I did not read through the thread but I wish universities would stop asking for race and ethnicities on applications.


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## LivingInPeace (Nov 2, 2022)

Cruisin90 said:


> No, I did not read through the thread but I wish universities would stop asking for race and ethnicities on applications.


Why?


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## Keen (Nov 2, 2022)

Cruisin90 said:


> No, I did not read through the thread but I wish universities would stop asking for race and ethnicities on applications.


Schools want a well rounded student body, that includes race and ethnicity diversity


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## Black Ambrosia (Nov 2, 2022)

It’s disturbing that they’re fighting to remove a safe guard against bias without addressing the bias. They’re just shifting the focus. It’s not surprising anymore but the blatant nature of everything is still jarring. Hoods are off and everybody’s acting like this is normal.


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## Cruisin90 (Nov 2, 2022)

Keen said:


> Schools want a well rounded student body, that includes race and ethnicity diversity


Are you saying that would not be possible without knowing someone race/ethnicity? I believe it limits concern groups because there is a cap on it.


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## Keen (Nov 2, 2022)

Cruisin90 said:


> Are you saying that would not be possible without knowing someone race/ethnicity? I believe it limits concern groups because there is a cap on it.


Concerned groups need to understand academics is not everything.  Most CEOs were not A students.  If a school wants to attract future CEOs, they will need to value non-academic skills.  Someone will always get capped out.  No one wants it to be them.  They would be fine if it was someone else getting capped.


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## Cruisin90 (Nov 2, 2022)

Keen said:


> Concerned groups need to understand academics is not everything.  Most CEOs were not A students.  If a school wants to attract future CEOs, they will need to value non-academic skills.  Someone will always get capped out.  No one wants it to be them.  They would be fine if it was someone else getting capped.


I agree with you but still race and ethnicity should not have anything to do with it. In the bay area, it was done for a high school because whites wanted to show that they had 95% white students because they were superior. It turns out that when school started whites only made up 45% of the new student body when they removed race/ethnicity from the application.


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## naturalgyrl5199 (Nov 12, 2022)

Cruisin90 said:


> I agree with you but still race and ethnicity should not have anything to do with it. *In the bay area*, it was done for a high school because whites wanted to show that they had 95% white students because they were superior. It turns out that when school started whites only made up 45% of the new student body when they removed race/ethnicity from the application.


In areas where the population is less than 5-10% black, its not gonna turn out that way. All over the south.


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