# 4a, 4b vs. C-Napp Hair: What's the Difference?



## cocoberry10 (Jan 12, 2008)

Hey ladies:

I'm currently transitioning, and I've read some of the posts where people will mention CNapp. I don't fully understand what that hair type is. Please break it down.

For example: Can you be 4a and a CNapp?


----------



## cutenappygrl (Jan 12, 2008)

4a is Andre Walker's system:Type 4A, tightly coiled hair that, when stretched, has an S pattern, much like curly hair; and Type 4B, which has a Z pattern, less of a defined curl pattern (instead of curling or coiling, the hair bends in sharp angles like the letter Z). Type 4A tends to have more moisture than Type 4B, which will have a wiry texture

Cnapp is characterized by nappturality Nappy Me:

This is from her website/forum:
http://www.cnappymenow.com


*Welcome to cNappymeNow*
*A Natural Nappy Hair Community*​

You might be wondering why I created cNappymeNow. Well let me explain. This community is for all the nappies whose hair would never be mistaken for "good" hair. It's not wavy nappy or curly nappy...it's just plain 'ole nappy hair. We're most likely to be told that we are too nappy to go natural. We're also the ones who at some point in our lives have felt that we had the nappiest hair on earth and wished we had "good" hair. 

The most defining characterists of tightly coiled, kinky strands of product-free cNapp hair is that it has no defined curl or wave pattern when wet or dry. In other words, when shampooed, you'd never wonder how to define your curls or cute little ringlets after your hair dries because you don't have any to begin with. Instead, our coils all take their own route and when our nappy hair is loose, freshly washed and product free it takes on the appearance of a thick fluffy, cottony cloud of naps; hence our nickname cNapps. With the right products and tools, our hair can be molded into styles that define our naps. Comb coils and finger coils are a few styling techniques that come to mind as they're easily done on cNapp hair and can hold these styles quite well. In addition, the ends ouf our twists often coil up, giving the hair a wonderful finishing touch. Other characteristics of our hair is that it's usually thick (but it doesn't have to be), coarse and very reactive to moisture. As a result, many of us experience MAJOR shrinkage. Our hair is inherently dry and extrememly prone to breakage and craves moisture all the time. We often have problems retaining length and cNapps with really long/big hair can be hard to come by mostly due to frustration and a lack of understanding about how to care for our hair. In addition, most of us cannot tolerate mineral oil and petroleum-based products, which can contribute to dry, brittle, breaking hair as well. 

Finally our hair has no natural shine to it. The twists and turns of our kinks don't allow light to reflect off our hair, instead our strands absorb the light. However, once again, the right products can make our hair have a healthy sheen, think like a suede material as opposed to a high shine like the sun bouncing off a hard wood floor. While none of these characteristcs are mutually exclusive to cNapp hair, they all come together to give us what we have, the nappy hair that in many instances, no one would ever want. But as cNapps, we've learned to embrace our unique hair and accept it for what it is - and that's "good hair." We've redefined beauty and and the term to mean hair that's growing strong, healthy and thriving. 

If you can relate to this, you're a cNapp and let me extend a warm welcome to our happy nappy family. You've come to the right place to find other nappies that have hair similar to yours. I'm warning you...our community is addictive so be prepared to stay awhile, participate, share and learn all about cNapp hair. As you do so, I sincerely hope you'll enjoy your forum experience here at cNappymeNow. God bless and much nappy love to you all!


----------



## sweetwhispers (Jan 12, 2008)

I don't agree with the whole C-Napp thing at all... but i'll keep my mouth shut cos i got in BIG trouble over that


----------



## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Jan 12, 2008)

sweetwhispers said:


> I don't agree with the whole C-Napp thing at all... but i'll keep my mouth shut cos i got in BIG trouble over that


You are free to speak here (or not speak if you want).  What do you not agree with?


----------



## EMJazzy (Jan 12, 2008)

Thanks for posting the question cocoberry10 I have always wondered what the exact definition of a cnapp was.

Thanks for answering cutenappygirl.


----------



## sweetwhispers (Jan 12, 2008)

I personally feel it is/was divisive for the forum. I really do. More power to everyone there ( my little sister is a member).

4b and Cnapp are one and the same. 

Bre~Bre now you know anything said on one board is seen on another. Its the symbiotic relationship between BHM, LHCF and NP.* the BIG 3*


----------



## senimoni (Jan 12, 2008)

Yeah I was trying to figure out the difference between 4b and Cnapp myself....


----------



## Kurlee (Jan 12, 2008)

sweetwhispers said:


> I don't agree with the whole C-Napp thing at all... but i'll keep my mouth shut cos i got in BIG trouble over that


 I agree


----------



## Guapa1 (Jan 12, 2008)

CNapp chiming in! 
I don't think they are the same. My friend is a 4b and her hair is completely different to mine.Hers still has a bit of a shine and her hair isn't as dry as mine at all. 
I'd go into albums here and on the other site and look at people claiming 4b and be like erplexed If you're hair is 4b, then I must be 10z, because my hair could never do what yours does.

Now I can go into every album on that cnapp site and know I'll be seeing hair that looks exactly like mine.

I don't think it was that divisive, I think some got offended that they weren't classed as 'the nappiest of napps' (which I think is hilarious, only on a hair board could that happen ) I am glad though that after we were identified, a different board was started, because I could see how it could have become that way. 

Through nappyme's site, I have found things that work for my hair that I never would have tried otherwise.


----------



## Crackers Phinn (Jan 13, 2008)

ok here is the JCoily oversimplified guide to type 4 hair.

4A hair (thin/fine) - looks like a well defined *twistout* unmanipulated.  This hair clumps into a coil or spring. More times than not people mistake it as 3c because of the definition but the key difference between type 3C and 4A is natural shine.  3 shines without camera flash 4 does not.

4A hair (medium to thick) - still looks like a twistout just fluffier and the thicker it is the less likely it is to clump into defined coils as 4a-thin. 

4B hair (thin/fine) - looks like a new *braidout* unmanipulated. This hair has sharp bends and instead of the S of a coil it looks like the number 5.  The thinner/finer the hair the better chance there is of seeing definition that the beds create.

4B hair (medium to thick) - looks like a cloud. The thickness is what creates the illusion that there is no definition.  

Traditional wisdom holds that 4B doesn't have definition.  My theory is that 4B hair has a pattern, but between the sharp bends and shrinkage it's difficult to ever really make out a coil pattern unless the hair is pulled taut (puff).

C-Napps is just too inconsistant - I see alot of folk claiming C-Napp and I go into their fotkis and see coils (including the person who devised the system).  

All of this is my opinion and not written in stone.


----------



## glamazon386 (Jan 13, 2008)

JCoily said:


> ok here is the JCoily oversimplified guide to type 4 hair.
> 
> 4A hair (thin/fine) - looks like a well defined *twistout* unmanipulated.  This hair clumps into a coil or spring. More times than not people mistake it as 3c because of the definition but the key difference between type 3C and 4A is natural shine.  3 shines without camera flash 4 does not.
> 
> ...



I agree with J Coily's break down.


----------



## AvaSpeaks (Jan 13, 2008)

sweetwhispers said:


> I don't agree with the whole C-Napp thing at all... but i'll keep my mouth shut cos i got in BIG trouble over that


 

This is crazy!! First years we were taught our hair was too nappy now certain websites say some of us ain't nappy enough???  

*Sweetwhispers*, I'm with you, I'm think I'm gonna sit this one out :roflleader:


----------



## Guapa1 (Jan 13, 2008)

I don't think the site is saying people aren't nappy enough, there are just things my hair responds to that other types doesn't. It's like 4a and 4b. 

People made it seem that way by getting mad when they were told they weren't a cnapp. I wouldn't get mad for being told I'm not a 4a, or 3c, so why do people get mad when they are told they don't have cnapp hair?


----------



## scarcity21 (Jan 13, 2008)

Guapa1 said:


> I don't think the site is saying people aren't nappy enough, there are just things my hair responds to that other types doesn't. It's like 4a and 4b.
> 
> People made it seem that way by getting mad when they were told they weren't a cnapp.* I wouldn't get mad for being told I'm not a 4a, or 3c, so why do people get mad when they are told they don't have cnapp hair?*


 
i KNOW...THE ONE THING TRIPPED ME OUT....WHY GET MAD BCOS OF SOMETHING SO TRIVIAL?
ETA: i consider myself a 4b/cnapp


----------



## scarcity21 (Jan 13, 2008)

JCoily said:


> ok here is the JCoily oversimplified guide to type 4 hair.
> 
> 4A hair (thin/fine) - looks like a well defined *twistout* unmanipulated. This hair clumps into a coil or spring. More times than not people mistake it as 3c because of the definition but the key difference between type 3C and 4A is natural shine. 3 shines without camera flash 4 does not.
> 
> ...


 
Can u post pics of each of ur subsections if u dont mind? I m having a hard time visualising the 4B thin/fine...looks like a number 5 pattern?


----------



## *Happily Me* (Jan 13, 2008)

I thought 4b and CNapps were the same.  



> C-Napps is just too inconsistant - I see alot of folk claiming C-Napp and I go into their fotkis and see coils


Me too!


----------



## ashiah (Jan 13, 2008)

Hmm, I don't consider myself C-Napp, but I went to the website and all those women had hair that looked just like mine, which is 4a/b.  I think a lot of 4bs are mislabeling their hair just because it's known as the kinkiest, but I still see definition in 4bs.  A true C-Napp is kind of rare; I've only stumbled on two or three and the hair looks like straight up cotton with 100 percent shrinkage.


----------



## glamazon386 (Jan 13, 2008)

ashiah said:


> Hmm, I don't consider myself C-Napp, but I went to the website and all those women had hair that looked just like mine, which is 4a/b.  I think a lot of 4bs are mislabeling their hair just because it's known as the kinkiest, but I still see definition in 4bs.  A true C-Napp is kind of rare; *I've only stumbled on two or three and the hair looks like straight up cotton with 100 percent shrinkage*.



Well the thing is, people's hair looks different when it's washed and left unmanipulated versus being styled. That might be why you don't see that many.


----------



## cocoberry10 (Jan 13, 2008)

sweetwhispers said:


> I don't agree with the whole C-Napp thing at all... but i'll keep my mouth shut cos i got in BIG trouble over that


 
Oh no ladies. I'm shocked something could start so much controversy! 

We are all here to learn proper haircare. As I'm going natural, I'm trying to learn my hair type!


----------



## cocoberry10 (Jan 13, 2008)

JCoily said:


> ok here is the JCoily oversimplified guide to type 4 hair.
> 
> 4A hair (thin/fine) - looks like a well defined *twistout* unmanipulated. This hair clumps into a coil or spring. More times than not people mistake it as 3c because of the definition but the key difference between type 3C and 4A is natural shine. 3 shines without camera flash 4 does not.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for this breakdown!


----------



## cocoberry10 (Jan 13, 2008)

DSylla said:


> I thought 4b and CNapps were the same.
> 
> Me too!


 
Girl, you've had major progress! Congratulations on your growth! It's beautiful. I'm


----------



## sonce (Jan 13, 2008)

cocoberry10 said:


> Hey ladies:
> 
> I'm currently transitioning, and I've read some of the posts where people will mention CNapp. I don't fully understand what that hair type is. Please break it down.
> 
> For example: Can you be 4a and a CNapp?


I don't even know anymore. Some CNapps said I was their hair twin but then I read somewhere that CNapps don't have ever curl definition. I have both coil and curl definition when I let my hair dry in a regular wash 'n go fro and my hair has both sheen (in some parts) and shine (in other parts) naturally, so I guess that means I'm not a CNapp anywhere but at the sides of my hair where the hair is just fuzzy and has low sheen? This hair typing stuff is confusing. I've left the CNapp label alone and my self-description moves between 4a and 4b depending on whose explanation I've read most recently.


----------



## Incredible1ne (Jan 13, 2008)

To me 4B = C-Napp.


----------



## nappity (Jan 13, 2008)

sonce said:


> I don't even know anymore. Some CNapps said I was their hair twin but then I read somewhere that CNapps don't have ever curl definition. I have both coil and curl definition when I let my hair dry in a regular wash 'n go fro and my hair has both sheen (in some parts) and shine (in other parts) naturally, so I guess that means I'm not a CNapp anywhere *but at the sides of my hair where the hair is just fuzzy and has low sheen?* This hair typing stuff is confusing. I've left the CNapp label alone and my self-description moves between 4a and 4b depending on whose explanation I've read most recently.



 We have the same type hair- on some parts i have s coils- some parts z and in some areas it just shrinks up drinks conditioner, burps and without product or a good twist set look like Steve Harveys hair. The typing is based on what the majority of your hair is. *For me its a 4b*. But I call my hair *4 alphabet*- cause different strands of my hair do different things at the same time. HTH


----------



## sonce (Jan 13, 2008)

nappity4b said:


> We have the same type hair- on some parts i have s coils- some parts z and in some areas it just shrinks up drinks conditioner, burps and without product or a good twist set look like Steve Harveys hair. The typing is based on what the majority of your hair is. *For me its a 4b*. But I call my hair *4 alphabet*- cause different strands of my hair do different things at the same time. HTH


Oh cool! We do seem to have the same kind of hair, and I love "4 alphabet." Sometimes I want to let my hair dry in a wash 'n go, take a picture, and see what the consensus is on what my hair type is...but that would require detangling after the wash 'n go and the thought of the tangles I'd be dealing with is terrifying. I don't think I'll ever have an unmanipulated wash 'no go in my album, so I'll just have to keep wondering what my hair type is.


----------



## Kurlee (Jan 13, 2008)

nappity4b said:


> We have the same type hair- on some parts i have s coils- some parts z and in some areas it just shrinks up drinks conditioner, burps and without product or a good twist set look like Steve Harveys hair. The typing is based on what the majority of your hair is. *For me its a 4b*. But I call my hair *4 alphabet*- cause different strands of my hair do different things at the same time. HTH




ETA: i consider myself 4a cuz of the obvious curl definition. Lawd im so confused.This hair typing thing is way too subjective.


----------



## DaPPeR (Jan 13, 2008)

Hey Cocoberry? Can you post the link to your other thread which features pics of naturals with 4a, 4b and CNapp hair? This might end the confusion for those that don't know the difference (or in some cases, similarity) of those hair types.


----------



## nappity (Jan 13, 2008)

sonce said:


> Oh cool! We do seem to have the same kind of hair, and I love "4 alphabet." Sometimes I want to let my hair dry in a wash 'n go, take a picture, and see what the consensus is on what my hair type is...but that would require detangling after the wash 'n go and the thought of the tangles I'd be dealing with is terrifying. I don't think I'll ever have an unmanipulated wash 'no go in my album, so I'll just have to keep wondering what my hair type is.




 Like you I cannot wash and go- but I think its cause of the length- I could do it when it was shorter. The tangles would be a nightmare


----------



## kblc06 (Jan 13, 2008)

*Cocoberry:

*I do think there is a distinct difference between regular 4a, 4b hair and cnapp hair:

For instance, bmorefly (now known as glamazon ) has a hair type that almost consistently 4a.

The closest person I can think of with true 4b type hair would probably be md-ocr, mscocoface, or either nappity 4b (but her hair is not consistent throughout)

True cnapp hair would be the following:

http://www.crazycoil.sili.net/howtodetail.php

The difference from the above mentioned people if you'll notice is that her hair has almost completely refracted light, making it appear grayish in some of her pics. It is DENSELY packed and has over 90% shrinkage. It also a very cottony appearance (hence the c in cnapp). When well cared for, it is extremely soft. In mi opinion, this is the absolute BEST type of locing hair (after doing some of my friends), because its natural tendency is to do so (again note the appearance of crazycoils _loose_ hair). Its extremely fragile and is more easily manipulated with fingers than with combs. Some of the styles and looks she can create with her loose hair simply can not be duplicated successfully on regular type 4 hair-if so I have  yet to see it (but sonce's recent hair pics/braids does resemble this in terms of its density, but not in its complete refraction of light)

I don't think this type of hair is just a distinct variation of 4b because honestly, I rarely ever see people with this hair type (it's texture is distinct even when relaxed). A lot of people claim to have that nappiest of naps, 10z type hair just because their hair is dense or super thick,  but I still don't think it equates to cnapp hair in terms of all its properties (density, coil pattern, curl clumpings, high sheen, low porosity, etc).


----------



## DarkVictory (Jan 13, 2008)

kblc06 said:


> *Cocoberry:*
> 
> I do think there is a distinct difference between regular 4a, 4b hair and cnapp hair
> <snip>
> I don't think this type of hair is just a distinct variation of 4b because honestly, I rarely ever see people with this hair type (it's texture is distinct even when relaxed). A lot of people claim to have that nappiest of naps, 10z type hair just because their hair is dense or super thick, but I still don't think it equates to cnapp hair in terms of all its properties (density, coil pattern, curl clumpings, high sheen, low porosity, etc).


 
This makes sense to me. I've mostly stayed away from the 4a-b system because it seemed to address texture only and not the other properties you mention. For instance, I and several people in my family have hair that does not shine. Even when relaxed or hot combed, it tends to have a matte finish no matter how much stuff is put in it. It will look greasy (like unwashed Caucasian hair) but not shiny. I think this is what gives it that distinct look.

Much of my hair is literally like a sheeps wool, and starts to form yarn-like locs very easily (see the un-detangled wash-n-go in the thumbnail). I can no more comb the individual strands than I can the cotton ball in the top of an aspirin bottle.

Does anybody else think of hair typing as more like philosophy than specific technical fact? Kind of like asking, "What is spicy food?"


----------



## glamazon386 (Jan 14, 2008)

kblc06 said:


> *Cocoberry:
> 
> *I do think there is a distinct difference between regular 4a, 4b hair and cnapp hair:
> 
> For instance, bmorefly (now known as glamazon ) has a hair type that almost consistently 4a.



What's with the  face? But anyway, you're right. My hair is pretty consistent throughout as a 4a. I have some bigger 3c curls mixed in and some 3b at the nape but once my hair is styled it's not that noticeable. If I allow my hair to airdry unmanipulated with no product you can see the difference clearly. The looser textures are bigger curls. They clump in bigger chunks. And they have less shrinkage and will stick out from the majority of my hair when dry.


----------



## glamazon386 (Jan 14, 2008)

J Coily - I used to think one of the biggest differences between Type 3 and Type 4 was shine factor but I've seen Type 3's that don't shine. Ayeshia said her hair is not shiny.


----------



## kblc06 (Jan 14, 2008)

glamazon386 said:


> *What's with the  face? But anyway, you're right. My hair is pretty consistent throughout as a 4a. *I have some bigger 3c curls mixed in and some 3b at the nape but once my hair is styled it's not that noticeable. If I allow my hair to airdry unmanipulated with no product you can see the difference clearly. The looser textures are bigger curls. They clump in bigger chunks. And they have less shrinkage and will stick out from the majority of my hair when dry.



Because it still doesn't feel right referring to you by your new name -it's just not the same


----------



## glamazon386 (Jan 14, 2008)

kblc06 said:


> Because it still doesn't feel right referring to you by your new name -it's just not the same



 That's what everybody is saying. It's funny because I mentioned it in a thread once before where they were talking about members changing my name. I knew everybody was still gonna call me Bmore. It's okay.


----------



## Sunshine0801 (Jan 14, 2008)

kblc06 said:


> *Cocoberry:*
> 
> *True cnapp hair would be the following:*
> 
> *http://www.crazycoil.sili.net/howtodetail.php*


 
See, what's confusing is that my hair looks a lot like hers (in some sections) but has more sheen overall. I have always categorized my hair as 4b, since most of my hair (the front, middle, and sides) have no curl definition. The back section of my hair is 4a I suppose, since it has a noticeably looser curl pattern, and the coils clump together.


----------



## sonce (Jan 14, 2008)

kblc06 said:


> True cnapp hair would be the following:
> 
> http://www.crazycoil.sili.net/howtodetail.php


Interesting. I had forgotten about crazycoil. If that is CNapp then I understand now and it seems that 90% of those claiming CNapp are not CNapps. I was told I was a CNapp and no part of my hair looks like Crazycoil's. I wonder how common her hair type is in the nappy pool. It is so soft and gentle looking. 



> Some of the styles and looks she can create with her loose hair simply can not be duplicated successfully on regular type 4 hair-if so I have  yet to see it (but sonce's recent hair pics/braids does resemble this in terms of its density, but not in its complete refraction of light)


Which styles of hers do you mean?


----------



## kblc06 (Jan 14, 2008)

sonce said:


> Interesting. I had forgotten about crazycoil. If that is CNapp then I understand now and it seems that 90% of those claiming CNapp are not CNapps. I was told I was a CNapp and no part of my hair looks like Crazycoil's. I wonder how common her hair type is in the nappy pool. It is so soft and gentle looking.
> *
> I seriously doubt a large number of people actually have this hair type when they claim they do. Even the creator of the cnapp term does have hair that looks quite like this, but many people with such tightly coiled hair often manipulate their hair into twist and twist-out so the texture may appear different.
> *
> Which styles of hers do you mean?


*Some of her more intricate bun styles and braids resemble your hair in terms of its density and coil pattern, but your hair has a more less sheen and slightly more shine (a balance between the two)-whereas her hair has high sheen and no shine.*


----------



## Kurlee (Jan 14, 2008)

The thing that confuses me, don't the numbers correspond  to curl size and letters are "sub sections"? The biggest difference to me between 3 and 4 is curl size. There are silky 3's and dull 3's. Silky 4's and dull 4's but if ur curl pattern is very teeny/tiney or coily, its 4a, no curl definition 4b. so to me a cnapp is 4b, no curl pattern.

The link for what a cnapp is, is just 4b hair that is very very dry. Her hair looks like if it was wet with conditioner or had more moisture or even gel, it would wave up and have a little shine.


----------



## silvergirl (Jan 14, 2008)

Kurlee said:


> The thing that confuses me, don't the numbers correspond  to curl size and letters are "sub sections"? The biggest difference to me between 3 and 4 is curl size. There are silky 3's and dull 3's. Silky 4's and dull 4's but if ur curl pattern is very teeny/tiney or coily, its 4a, no curl definition 4b. so to me a cnapp is 4b, no curl pattern.
> 
> The link for what a cnapp is, is just 4b hair that is very very dry. Her hair looks like if it was wet with conditioner or had more moisture or even gel, it would wave up and have a little shine.




yup i think hair type is based on curl size rather than silky/dull texture. 

there are even type 1's that have dullish hair.


----------



## kblc06 (Jan 14, 2008)

Kurlee said:


> The thing that confuses me, don't the numbers correspond  to curl size and letters are "sub sections"? The biggest difference to me between 3 and 4 is curl size. There are silky 3's and dull 3's. Silky 4's and dull 4's but if ur curl pattern is very teeny/tiney or coily, its 4a, no curl definition 4b. so to me a cnapp is 4b, no curl pattern.
> 
> * The link for what a cnapp is, is just 4b hair that is very very dry. Her hair looks like if it was wet with conditioner or had more moisture or even gel, it would wave up and have a little shine.*



But this is what most people don't understand-it will *NEVER have shine *(no matter what products or techniques)and the coils have no clumping properties *AT ALL* (meaning the curls can not form cohesively like say silvergirl's hair without extensive manipulation, and even then, it won't look this because the strands can not be consistently stretched to smooth out the individual coils). But that is not to say that individual strands don't have a coil pattern. I've only met one other person (IRL) with hair almost exactly like hers and it was EXTREMELY soft. No amount of straightening or relaxing will change its inherent characteristics .When you add more products or moisturizers it just appears duller and coated, making it appear drier when in fact it's not. To add to this, it is also the type of hair that is very hard to get fully wet-water has a tendency to simply "roll" off the hair so drenching with water and conditioner would have little to no effect in terms of stretching the hair. Her hair has pure sheen (that captures and refracts light at different frequencies on each part of the hair's coil). Very few people have hair that has pure shine and even fewer with pure sheen-it's generally a combination of everything in between.


----------



## glamazon386 (Jan 14, 2008)

kblc06 said:


> But this is what most people don't understand-it will *NEVER have shine *(no matter what products or techniques)and the coils have no clumping properties *AT ALL* (meaning the curls can not form cohesively like say silvergirl's hair without extensive manipulation, and even then, it won't look this because the strands can not be consistently stretched to smooth out the individual coils). But that is not to say that individual strands don't have a coil pattern. I've only met one other person (IRL) with hair almost exactly like hers and it was EXTREMELY soft. No amount of straightening or relaxing will change its inherent characteristics .When you add more products or moisturizers it just appears duller and coated, making it appear drier when in fact it's not. To add to this, it is also the type of hair that is very hard to get fully wet-water has a tendency to simply "roll" off the hair so drenching with water and conditioner would have little to no effect in terms of stretching the hair. Her hair has pure sheen (that captures and refracts light at different frequencies on each part of the hair's coil). Very few people have hair that has pure shine and even fewer with pure sheen-it's generally a combination of everything in between.



I would agree with this KLB. I get what you're saying. That's the kind of hair that still stands up and looks like a bush even when it's wet. You can't ssee that it's wet when you're looking at it. My brother's hair was like that when he wore cornrows. He did have a bit of a curl pattern when it was short. Like now if he needs a hair cut you'll see coils in some spots but it isn't defined. It doesn't clump together. Once it grew out it looked like a giant cloud/cottonball. Even when it was wet. Even if he tried to brush it back it still looked like that.


----------



## AvaSpeaks (Jan 14, 2008)

silvergirl said:


> yup i think hair type is based on curl size rather than silky/dull texture.
> 
> there are even type 1's that have dullish hair.


 
Yes, it's the curls/coils.


----------



## Kurlee (Jan 14, 2008)

kblc06 said:


> But this is what most people don't understand-it will *NEVER have shine *(no matter what products or techniques)and the coils have no clumping properties *AT ALL* (meaning the curls can not form cohesively like say silvergirl's hair without extensive manipulation, and even then, it won't look this because the strands can not be consistently stretched to smooth out the individual coils). But that is not to say that individual strands don't have a coil pattern. I've only met one other person (IRL) with hair almost exactly like hers and it was EXTREMELY soft. No amount of straightening or relaxing will change its inherent characteristics .When you add more products or moisturizers it just appears duller and coated, making it appear drier when in fact it's not. To add to this, it is also the type of hair that is very hard to get fully wet-water has a tendency to simply "roll" off the hair so drenching with water and conditioner would have little to no effect in terms of stretching the hair. Her hair has pure sheen (that captures and refracts light at different frequencies on each part of the hair's coil). Very few people have hair that has pure shine and even fewer with pure sheen-it's generally a combination of everything in between.


 I understand what ur saying, but her hair looks VERY dry, and i didn;t mean shine, I meant sheen. I could see in some of the pics she did have a wavyish curl pattern in some places, but her hair looked so dryyy. Many people if they put nothing or close to nothing it will be fuzzy and undefined. Her hair could look totally different, it appears, if she put something in it.  Anyways, I would consider her 4b. I think the whole C-Napp thing seperates us even more as if to say that hair is the ultimate "nappiness" (whatever that means). 4a, small teeny curls and 4b no definite curl pattern. No need to get into more division 4c, 5a, c-napp, its getting extreme and extra now.


----------



## Guapa1 (Jan 14, 2008)

kblc06 said:


> But this is what most people don't understand-it will *NEVER have shine *(no matter what products or techniques)and the coils have no clumping properties *AT ALL* (meaning the curls can not form cohesively like say silvergirl's hair without extensive manipulation, and even then, it won't look this because the strands can not be consistently stretched to smooth out the individual coils). But that is not to say that individual strands don't have a coil pattern. I've only met one other person (IRL) with hair almost exactly like hers and it was EXTREMELY soft. No amount of straightening or relaxing will change its inherent characteristics .When you add more products or moisturizers it just appears duller and coated, making it appear drier when in fact it's not. To add to this, it is also the type of hair that is very hard to get fully wet-water has a tendency to simply "roll" off the hair so drenching with water and conditioner would have little to no effect in terms of stretching the hair. Her hair has pure sheen (that captures and refracts light at different frequencies on each part of the hair's coil). Very few people have hair that has pure shine and even fewer with pure sheen-it's generally a combination of everything in between.



That's right, this reminds me of a convo I had with my gran last week. (Imagine a Jamaican accent)

Mama: G1, you need fe put some grease in yu hair. It look dry and natty. 
G1: Mama, I have got grease in my hair, in fact I done it yesterday.
Mama: Well you not using enough, you mus' put plenty plenty mek it shine.
G1: *sigh* My hair DOESN'T shine and it has plenty oil on it, look touch it 
Mama(after touching): Ooohh, it's soft, but it look like it woulda cut through my hand like wire! 

I have this convo almost every week.



Kurlee said:


> I understand what ur saying, but her hair looks VERY dry, and i didn;t mean shine, I meant sheen. I could see in some of the pics she did have a wavyish curl pattern in some places, but her hair looked so dryyy. Many people if they put nothing or close to nothing it will be fuzzy and undefined. Her hair could look totally different, it appears, if she put something in it. Anyways, I would consider her 4b. I think the whole C-Napp thing seperates us even more as if to say that hair is the ultimate "nappiness" (whatever that means). 4a, small teeny curls and 4b no definite curl pattern. No need to get into more division 4c, 5a, c-napp, its getting extreme and extra now.



I don;t think anyone said it's the ultimate nappiness, that is peoples assumption. I don't think it's extra at all. It feels good to look at other albums and know that my hair is like someone elses. I used to look at a lot of albums and think I'm doing something wrong because my hair didn't behave like a lot of others 4bs.


----------



## AfroKink (Jan 14, 2008)

So am I a 4b or a c-napp (if you can tell from the pics)

http://public.fotki.com/missalyssa/hair-tings/sl-challenge/decpc2b.html

pw: faith

Lys


----------



## Kurlee (Jan 14, 2008)

4b........................^^^


----------



## sonce (Jan 14, 2008)

MissAlyssa said:


> So am I a 4b or a c-napp (if you can tell from the pics)
> 
> http://public.fotki.com/missalyssa/hair-tings/sl-challenge/decpc2b.html
> 
> ...


It has that dry look like crazycoil's hair. Is your hair soft and moisturized with product in it in this pic? If so, then I think you're a CNapp. If not, then you're a 4b but your hair needs to be moisturized.


----------



## kblc06 (Jan 14, 2008)

glamazon386 said:


> I would agree with this KLB. I get what you're saying. That's the kind of hair that still stands up and looks like a bush even when it's wet. You can't ssee that it's wet when you're looking at it. My brother's hair was like that when he wore cornrows. He did have a bit of a curl pattern when it was short. Like now if he needs a hair cut you'll see coils in some spots but it isn't defined. It doesn't clump together. Once it grew out it looked like a giant cloud/cottonball. Even when it was wet. Even if he tried to brush it back it still looked like that.




Thank you! I'm glad I'm not the only one who knows what I'm talking about ( I was starting to feel a little crazy for a minute) 

*Kurlee*: 

The dry look that I was describing is an intrinsic property of her hair, even though her hair isn't dry-what you are seeing is extremely high sheen (the light that 's refracted off & in between her coils is what is giving that appearance). The difference between high sheen and shine is that with straight hair, as the the light hits the rounded, compact cuticles of the hair strands, the angle at which the light hits is completely deflected. In the case of crazycoil's hair, when light hits her hair strands, deflects completely at certain outer points of the coil but refracts and remait  entrapped within the inner points of the coils. 

The best way to describe this is by using a mirror example discussed in my physics course-when light shines directly upon a mirror, it deflects almost complete from its smooth surface-as is the case with straight hair. But say you have a room with a series of mirrors surrounding it at different angles - if light hits one particular mirror, it may be deflected off that mirror to another one at a different angle. In turn, this mirror may deflect that light towards the floor or at another medium that does not re-deflect the light. The sharper the angle or curve, the more light  is deflected and may be absorbed through different mediums and the more light may be lost due to the lack of refraction-this a similar property in the way c-napp hair behaves, the light remains trapped within the sheer density of the hair. Thus when you go out into the sunlight or a well lit area to take a picture (like in cc's album) , this property becomes very apparent

The coils will not clump together and smooth out so it will never look just regular moisturized 4b hair (even if it is on the more dull side). I too use to think that it was sort of divisive, but that is because I didn't know hair of this extreme existed. The same methods and products will simply not work on this type of hair (I know because I tried using methods that work on my aunts' dull natural 4b hair on a friend w/natural c-napp hair and it just didn't work-AT ALL). The appearance is very much the same, but it behaves vastly different. 

*Sorry for the long post -I was just attempting to convey how this type of hair behaves so you would see the point I was making


----------



## cocoberry10 (Jan 14, 2008)

nappity4b said:


> We have the same type hair- on some parts i have s coils- some parts z and in some areas it just shrinks up drinks conditioner, burps and without product or a good twist set look like Steve Harveys hair. The typing is based on what the majority of your hair is. *For me its a 4b*. But I call my hair *4 alphabet*- cause different strands of my hair do different things at the same time. HTH


 
See, to me, looking at this picture, you are more of a 3c, but I could be wrong!


----------



## DarkVictory (Jan 14, 2008)

Deleted post


----------



## Kurlee (Jan 14, 2008)

kblc06 said:


> Thank you! I'm glad I'm not the only one who knows what I'm talking about ( I was starting to feel a little crazy for a minute)
> 
> *Kurlee*:
> 
> ...


Thnaks, I'm starting to get it now. So what does work on this type of hair? is it more fragile than 4a 4b hair?


----------



## kblc06 (Jan 14, 2008)

glamazon386 said:


> I would agree with this KLB. I get what you're saying. That's the kind of hair that still stands up and looks like a bush even when it's wet. You can't ssee that it's wet when you're looking at it. My brother's hair was like that when he wore cornrows. He did have a bit of a curl pattern when it was short. Like now if he needs a hair cut you'll see coils in some spots but it isn't defined. It doesn't clump together. Once it grew out it looked like a giant cloud/cottonball. Even when it was wet. Even if he tried to brush it back it still looked like that.





Kurlee said:


> Thnaks, I'm starting to get it now. So what does work on this type of hair? is it more fragile than 4a 4b hair?



I would say that it probably is the most fragile of hair types because at every point it coils is a weak point, and almost every hair strand is inconsistently coiled,  but I've seen it grow extremely long with very low manipulation (it's just that there's so much shrinkage, growth isn't noticeable until you stretch it). On my friends hair co-washing w/natural conditioners, glycerin-based and humectant products, NOT using combs-at all, unless its a inch section of hair. She twists or braids her hair 1x every 2-4 weeks, wears a twist/braid out, repeat. She almost  never uses shampoo or wears it completely unstretched and her styles last foreva. Very light oils also seem to work (jojoba, grapeseed, etc), but heavy gels, greases, pomades can seriously mat her hair and cause it to loc up. Her hair is a close to apl, but if left to it's own devices, it shrinks up toa 1-2 inch twa


----------



## scarcity21 (Jan 15, 2008)

kblc06 said:


> I would say that it probably is the most fragile of hair types because at every point it coils is a weak point, and almost every hair strand is inconsistently coiled, but I've seen it grow extremely long with very low manipulation (it's just that there's so much shrinkage, growth isn't noticeable until you stretch it). On my friends hair co-washing w/natural conditioners, glycerin-based and humectant products, NOT using combs-at all, unless its a inch section of hair. She twists or braids her hair 1x every 2-4 weeks, wears a twist/braid out, repeat. She almost never uses shampoo or wears it completely unstretched and her styles last foreva. Very light oils also seem to work (jojoba, grapeseed, etc), but heavy gels, greases, pomades can seriously mat her hair and cause it to loc up. Her hair is a close to apl, but if left to it's own devices, it shrinks up toa 1-2 inch twa


 

You know exactly what ur talking about kblc I agree with all ur posts in this thread


----------



## Kurlee (Jan 15, 2008)

kblc06 said:


> I would say that it probably is the most fragile of hair types because at every point it coils is a weak point, and almost every hair strand is inconsistently coiled,  but I've seen it grow extremely long with very low manipulation (it's just that there's so much shrinkage, growth isn't noticeable until you stretch it). On my friends hair co-washing w/natural conditioners, glycerin-based and humectant products, NOT using combs-at all, unless its a inch section of hair. She twists or braids her hair 1x every 2-4 weeks, wears a twist/braid out, repeat. She almost  never uses shampoo or wears it completely unstretched and her styles last foreva. Very light oils also seem to work (jojoba, grapeseed, etc), but heavy gels, greases, pomades can seriously mat her hair and cause it to loc up. Her hair is a close to apl, *but if left to it's own devices, it shrinks up toa 1-2 inch twa *


jesus, and i thought i had shrinkage


----------



## MadisonK (Jan 15, 2008)

sweetwhispers said:


> I personally feel it is/was divisive for the forum. I really do. More power to everyone there ( my little sister is a member).
> 
> 4b and Cnapp are one and the same.
> 
> Bre~Bre now you know anything said on one board is seen on another. Its the symbiotic relationship between BHM, LHCF and NP.* the BIG 3*


 
Hi, what are the other 2 boards?
thanks.


----------



## AvaSpeaks (Jan 15, 2008)

See I think that's another problem we have, the mislabeling of our hair.

I wish I could really break it down, but I know I would be flamed  But I think we deep down know what true Type 4's and Type 3's look like. Some of us claiming "I'm Type 4b" or "I'm Type 4c" and they are clearly something else. 

It's like I see posters here claiming they are a much kinkier texture than they really are. Or posters claiming they are a much looser texture than they maybe. It goes back and forth. But the pics don't lie. Even if we don't use Andre's system or LOIS, some textures really do speak for themselves, regardless of how what we try to claim it is.


----------



## naijamerican (Jan 15, 2008)

Guapa1 said:


> I don;t think anyone said it's the ultimate nappiness, that is peoples assumption. I don't think it's extra at all. It feels good to look at other albums and know that my hair is like someone elses. I used to look at a lot of albums and think I'm doing something wrong because my hair didn't behave like a lot of others 4bs.



This is how I feel, too. I would look at other people with "4B" hair and feel very discouraged. It took me a long time to understand that even though every 4B is different, peopel were either misclassifying their hair or I was not really a 4B and I was really a 8Z squared. But when I looked at the CNapp pictures (I have an account there now, same screen name as here) I realized that I was not alone. I don't remember who said that C-Napp is rare, but in my experience it seems to be true. Even in my family no one has hair like mine.


----------



## Kurlee (Jan 15, 2008)

AvaSpeaks said:


> See I think that's another problem we have, the mislabeling of our hair.
> 
> * I wish I could really break it down, but I know I would be flamed  *But I think we deep down know what true Type 4's and Type 3's look like. Some of us claiming "I'm Type 4b" or "I'm Type 4c" and they are clearly something else.
> 
> * It's like I see posters here claiming they are a much kinkier texture than they really are.* Or posters claiming they are a much looser texture than they maybe. It goes back and forth. But the pics don't lie. Even if we don't use Andre's system or LOIS, some textures really do speak for themselves, regardless of how what we try to claim it is.


----------



## discodumpling (Jan 15, 2008)

Hair typing is subjective. Here we are getting our panties in a bunch because some MAN has decided that black women have TWO types of hair. Why do folks always try to define that which has no definition?

KBLC06...ur right on the money with the tips for the care of ultra nappy hair....which I was sure I had until I read this thread!

9 months natural & I have no idea where I fall on Andre's scale. Not for lack of trying; but for my own peace of mind I just call it nappy


----------



## AvaSpeaks (Jan 15, 2008)

That's why I stopped trying to figure out what my hair type is. I know what it does and how it looks, whether it be dry or wet. All I know is that I am not a Type 1 or a C-Napp or 4b, that much I know. 

Again, I find it so funny for years we were scared of our hair because it was "too nappy". Now I noticed on some of these sites, including this one, that some of us are not "nappy enough"


----------



## AfroKink (Jan 15, 2008)

sonce said:


> It has that dry look like crazycoil's hair. Is your hair soft and moisturized with product in it in this pic? If so, then I think you're a CNapp. If not, then you're a 4b but your hair needs to be moisturized.



Well my hair is always soft.  But yes it's moisturized with product in it there. 

Lys


----------



## glamazon386 (Jan 15, 2008)

AvaSpeaks said:


> That's why I stopped trying to figure out what my hair type is. I know what it does and how it looks, whether it be dry or wet. All I know is that I am not a Type 1 or a C-Napp or 4b, that much I know.
> *
> Again, I find it so funny for years we were scared of our hair because it was "too nappy". Now I noticed on some of these sites, including this one, that some of us are not "nappy enough"*



I've noticed that too.


----------



## glamazon386 (Jan 15, 2008)

naijamerican said:


> This is how I feel, too. I would look at other people with "4B" hair and feel very discouraged. It took me a long time to understand that even though every 4B is different, peopel were either misclassifying their hair or I was not really a 4B and I was really a 8Z squared. But when I looked at the CNapp pictures (I have an account there now, same screen name as here) I realized that I was not alone. *I don't remember who said that C-Napp is rare, but in my experience it seems to be true. Even in my family no one has hair like mine.*



Yeah IDK where my brother got his hair from. It was just very different. My mother couldn't even cornrow his hair it was so thick. It was like it had a mind of it's own. She used to send him to the salon once every few weeks to get it washed and cornrowed because she didn't know what else to do with it. But she used to cornrow my natural hair all the time when I was a child with no problem. And my texture is different now than it was then.


----------



## DarkVictory (Jan 16, 2008)

Deleted post.


----------



## AvaSpeaks (Jan 16, 2008)

DarkVictory said:


> MO many of us don't know. I don't, and I'm not the only one, or else we wouldn't have so many threads asking about hair type. So if folks are getting it wrong, figure it's lack of knowledge or just plain old confusion.


 
I'm talking about with the knowledge that we have now. We now know the difference between a Type 3 or Type 4 hair. Based on Andre system. But that's *if* we use Andre's system.

I mean when I was growing up, I used to see some of our brothers and sisters with that thick, wavy hair texture, does anybody know what I am talking about? I remember seeing little girls and boys with that thick wavy hair texture and even then I could tell that there hair texture was different than mine. I didn't need to know a typing system to tell that their hair was not only different, but tended to wave instead of curl or "nape" up like the other little boys and girls around me.

That's why I said, deep down, I think we know the difference. _Alot of us._ I just think that we don't want to say what some of the main differences are. For fear of being flamed or looking stupid or because everything is so damn PC now ffrant: I don't know....

But that's


----------



## Guapa1 (Jan 16, 2008)

AvaSpeaks said:


> That's why I stopped trying to figure out what my hair type is. I know what it does and how it looks, whether it be dry or wet. All I know is that I am not a Type 1 or a C-Napp or 4b, that much I know.
> 
> * Again, I find it so funny for years we were scared of our hair because it was "too nappy". Now I noticed on some of these sites, including this one, that some of us are not "nappy enough" [/*quote]
> 
> I still find it bloody hilarious! Only on the internet. No one has EVER said that to me IRL.


----------



## AfroKink (Jan 16, 2008)

AvaSpeaks said:


> I'm talking about with the knowledge that we have now. We now know the difference between a Type 3 or Type 4 hair. Based on Andre system. But that's *if* we use Andre's system.
> 
> I mean when I was growing up, I used to see some of our brothers and sisters with that thick, wavy hair texture, does anybody know what I am talking about? I remember seeing little girls and boys with that thick wavy hair texture and even then I could tell that there hair texture was different than mine. I didn't need to know a typing system to tell that their hair was not only different, but tended to wave instead of curl or "nape" up like the other little boys and girls around me.
> 
> ...



I think people know the difference between say a 3a and 4a.  But confusion comes as the types get closer.  What someone deems a 3c another will call a 4a. There is a lot of grey area. 

Lys


----------



## LadyKaypnyc (Jan 16, 2008)

JCoily said:


> ok here is the JCoily oversimplified guide to type 4 hair.
> 
> 4A hair (thin/fine) - looks like a well defined *twistout* unmanipulated. This hair clumps into a coil or spring. More times than not people mistake it as 3c because of the definition but the key difference between type 3C and 4A is natural shine. 3 shines without camera flash 4 does not.
> 
> ...


 
 I Love the system. It completely explains my hair (which is 4a fine). My sister has 4b hair. There are things that I can do to my hair that she can't and vice versa. In the end we are all beautiful Black women with gorgeous hair!


----------



## Guapa1 (Jan 16, 2008)

kblc06 said:


> I would say that it probably is the most fragile of hair types because at every point it coils is a weak point, and almost every hair strand is inconsistently coiled,  but I've seen it grow extremely long with very low manipulation (it's just that there's so much shrinkage, growth isn't noticeable until you stretch it). On my friends hair co-washing w/natural conditioners, glycerin-based and humectant products, NOT using combs-at all, unless its a inch section of hair. She twists or braids her hair 1x every 2-4 weeks, wears a twist/braid out, repeat. She almost  never uses shampoo or wears it completely unstretched and her styles last foreva. Very light oils also seem to work (jojoba, grapeseed, etc), but heavy gels, greases, pomades can seriously mat her hair and cause it to loc up. Her hair is a close to apl, but if left to it's own devices, it shrinks up toa 1-2 inch twa



Is your friend on hairboards? I would love to see her hair. It sounds so much like mine as I'm always looking for inspirations!


----------



## Kurlee (Jan 16, 2008)

AvaSpeaks said:


> I'm talking about with the knowledge that we have now. We now know the difference between a Type 3 or Type 4 hair. Based on Andre system. But that's *if* we use Andre's system.
> 
> I mean when I was growing up, I used to see some of our brothers and sisters with that thick, wavy hair texture, does anybody know what I am talking about? I remember seeing little girls and boys with that thick wavy hair texture and even then I could tell that there hair texture was different than mine. I didn't need to know a typing system to tell that their hair was not only different, but tended to wave instead of curl or "nape" up like the other little boys and girls around me.
> 
> ...


----------



## gmw (Jan 16, 2008)

sonce said:


> I don't even know anymore. Some CNapps said I was their hair twin but then I read somewhere that CNapps don't have ever curl definition. I have both coil and curl definition when I let my hair dry in a regular wash 'n go fro and my hair has both sheen (in some parts) and shine (in other parts) naturally, so I guess that means I'm not a CNapp anywhere but at the sides of my hair where the hair is just fuzzy and has low sheen? This hair typing stuff is confusing. I've left the CNapp label alone and my self-description moves between 4a and 4b depending on whose explanation I've read most recently.


 
I am going to have to agree with you sonce. My hair is all coils. Very smal coils. So I claimed 4a when I first came to the hair boards. However most people who claim 4a have much wider and silkier curls then me. I claimed 4a when my hair was shorter. As it gets longer I looks different. However when I wash my hair and leave it alone ( no product at all), I see clearly defined coils/curls. They don't clump though. The hair on in the back of my head is straighter then the rest of my head. And that become more obvious the longer my hair gets. 

Also I use products that 3a/b/c people use, and my hair responds well to them. Some heavy products just sit on my hair. Like shea butter, and castor oil. A lot of products that some 4c people use and call their HG, I can not use. I tried and it did nothing for my hair. 

This whole system and the LOIS system is confusing to me.


----------



## nappity (Jan 16, 2008)

MissAlyssa said:


> So am I a 4b or a c-napp (if you can tell from the pics)
> 
> http://public.fotki.com/missalyssa/hair-tings/sl-challenge/decpc2b.html
> 
> ...



 Your beautiful hair hair looks like a true cnapp


----------



## nappity (Jan 16, 2008)

cocoberry10 said:


> See, to me, looking at this picture, you are more of a 3c, but I could be wrong!


Yup you are wrong. This is hair with wet and Im adding leave in conditioner. I have pictures in my fotki of the shrinkage as well as in my cassia album of clean dried no product added hair. I have learned how to obtain and retain moisture- Id you look at my rollersetting pictures- it cannot be mistaken for a 3 on any level.


----------



## JustKiya (Jan 16, 2008)

Interesting. 

I think I USED to be a cnapp - I say used to, because since I've been using henna, my sheen is all gone, and I've got nothing but shine. 
I can remember my momma telling me my hair looked dry though, even though I had JUST FINISHED greasing it, and I definitely don't have defined curls - it's more wavy - though, it's been so long since I let my hair dry COMPLETELY unmanipulated (makes scared face) that I'm not sure anymore. 
When my hair isn't attached to my head though, it's a tiny penspring - makes a perfect 'o'. *think* And actually, I don't think that's true anymore either - I haven't had many shed hairs that are unmanipulated either. 
*thinks* It also used to take a while to get my hair wet - I would have to 'soak' my head for a while before it actually got wet - but I assumed that was from the buildup of cones on my hair, more so than an intrinsic part of my hair. 

Hrm. I'm thinking I'm not a Cnapp, but I would love to stalk them, in the PJ kinda way. Anything that give more moisture my hair wants.


----------



## Cheleigh (Jan 16, 2008)

naijamerican said:


> This  I don't remember who said that C-Napp is rare, but in my experience it seems to be true. Even in my family no one has hair like mine.



ITA. I have found that what is called C-napp is the rarest hair type out of the black diaspora. I've also noticed that some folks who consider themselves C-napps are actually so-called 4a/4b or 4b types. I find C-napp hair endlessly fascinating because it's so rare.


----------



## glamazon386 (Jan 16, 2008)

MissAlyssa said:


> I think people know the difference between say a 3a and 4a.  But confusion comes as the types get closer.  What someone deems a 3c another will call a 4a. *There is a lot of grey area. *
> 
> Lys



You're right. And I think a lot of it is because 3c didn't originally exist in Andre's system. People added it (I think the people at naturallycurly.com) because there was a big gap between 3b and 4a. And what is 4c? Where did that come from? That wasn't originally in his system either.


----------



## Guapa1 (Jan 16, 2008)

I actually don't think c-napp hair is rare. I just don't think they keep albums, because they think people are not interested in their hair, plus when they get typed wrong and nothing works, they give up. Let's be real here, it's only on hair boards that people compliment this type of hair.


----------



## glamazon386 (Jan 16, 2008)

Guapa1 said:


> I actually don't think c-napp hair is rare. I just don't think they keep albums, because they think people are not interested in their hair, plus when they get typed wrong and nothing works, they give up. Let's be real here, it's only on hair boards that people compliment this type of hair.



*ducks stones* I think you're right Guapa. I think the hair boards are way more accepting of natural hair in general than people are in real life. A lot of times people just keep their comments bad or good to themselves.


----------



## AfroKink (Jan 16, 2008)

Guapa1 said:


> I actually don't think c-napp hair is rare. *I just don't think they keep albums, because they think people are not interested in their hair,* plus when they get typed wrong and nothing works, they give up. Let's be real here, it's only on hair boards that people compliment this type of hair.



I don't have an album because I'm lazy. I actually started a very detailed one a year ago, and after 2 months I was done.

Lys


----------



## Cheleigh (Jan 16, 2008)

Guapa1 said:


> I actually don't think c-napp hair is rare. I just don't think they keep albums, because they think people are not interested in their hair, plus when they get typed wrong and nothing works, they give up. Let's be real here, it's only on hair boards that people compliment this type of hair.



Maybe you're right--maybe it's not that rare, but out of all the people I've seen with hair albums (on naturallycurly, np, bhm, lhcf, hc, ohb, etc.), I've only seen a handful of people who's hair I would consider c-napp. Some folks I see claiming c-napp I would consider 4b. Even my SO's hair, which initially might look like c-napp, I would consider 4b on closer inspection.  But he might be considered to be a c-napp in some quarters. Maybe all the c-napps are relaxed? Most black men I see around seem to be 4a/4b or 4b. I also rarely see c-napp hair on men (where I can see their natural texture) too, so that's why I figured it was rare. Maybe it's not so rare, and that most of the c-napp men are loc'd or bald.


----------



## cocoberry10 (Jan 17, 2008)

nappity4b said:


> Yup you are wrong. This is hair with wet and Im adding leave in conditioner. I have pictures in my fotki of the shrinkage as well as in my cassia album of clean dried no product added hair. I have learned how to obtain and retain moisture- Id you look at my rollersetting pictures- it cannot be mistaken for a 3 on any level.


 
 When I was natural before, I think my hair looked like yours in that pic I posted. I wonder now what I'll be. Somewhere between a 3c, a 4b or a CNapp. Maybe I'll have all those textures on my head!


----------



## glamazon386 (Jan 17, 2008)

cocoberry10 said:


> When I was natural before, I think my hair looked like yours in that pic I posted. I wonder now what I'll be. Somewhere between a 3c, a 4b or a CNapp. Maybe I'll have all those textures on my head!



That's possible. But you won't know until you chop. How long have you been transitioning?


----------



## cocoberry10 (Jan 17, 2008)

glamazon386 said:


> That's possible. But you won't know until you chop. How long have you been transitioning?


 
6 months. I'm trying to hold of BC until I reach 1 year!


----------



## anon123 (Feb 20, 2008)

Well, you guys know, the "cnapp" designation was created not too long ago.  So if you want to know what it is, go to the creators. Go to the blog Nappturology, or the forum CNappyMeNow. It doesn't make any sense to me for a group of people to come up with a name for their hair and then have other people come in and say "no, your hair is not that category".  How could it not be? *The term was made precisely to describe their hair*, *so if anybody is in that category, they are*.  The defining characteristic of cnapp hair, as I understand it (and I chat a lot on the cnapp forum), is that it doesn't clump into curls.  Sometimes it does clump into . . . clumps (not curls).  Sometimes (usually, seems to me), the individual strands have curls and coils.  But the whole package, even with wet or product, looks like cotton fluff and not like curls.  And so cnapps save their money when it comes to buying products that "define your curls" cuz there aren't any to define.  Any other characteristic is secondary and may vary among individuals. Based on this definition, I think cnapp hair is very common.

Now that whole 4a and 4b thing, I'm still a little confused over it.


----------



## morehairplease (Feb 20, 2008)

when my hair grows longer in length, I will be able to tell much clearier what hair type I have, hopefully.


----------



## tocktick (Apr 7, 2008)

JCoily said:


> 4A hair (thin/fine) - looks like a well defined *twistout* unmanipulated.  This hair clumps into a coil or spring. More times than not people mistake it as 3c because of the definition but the key difference between type 3C and 4A is natural shine.  3 shines without camera flash 4 does not.
> 
> 4A hair (medium to thick) - still looks like a twistout just fluffier and the thicker it is the less likely it is to clump into defined coils as 4a-thin.




the last paragraph describes my hair to a T. i would go into albums of people claiming to be 4a but their curls would be so defined. however, their curls were not big enough to be in type 3. i was wondering if i was really 4a but the last paragraph makes sense to me. i   know there are 1-2 other textures though, which would account for my hair not being as uniform and coily as the other 4as i described.


----------



## cocoberry10 (Apr 15, 2008)

tocktick said:


> the last paragraph describes my hair to a T. i would go into albums of people claiming to be 4a but their curls would be so defined. however, their curls were not big enough to be in type 3. i was wondering if i was really 4a but the last paragraph makes sense to me. i know there are 1-2 other textures though, which would account for my hair not being as uniform and coily as the other 4as i described.


 
Hopefully, you will figure it out. I guess that's what we are all here for

I've been her 3.5 years, and I am still learning


----------



## hopeful (Apr 16, 2008)

Guapa1 said:


> I actually don't think c-napp hair is rare. I just don't think they keep albums, because they think people are not interested in their hair, plus when they get typed wrong and nothing works, they give up. Let's be real here, it's only on hair boards that people compliment this type of hair.


 
I do think that c-napp is rare and I agree with Cheleigh that it is endlessly fascinating.  But you make a really good point and if you are right what a shame.  Every now and then a long-haired c-napp will post pics on this forum and it always takes my breath away.  I've been on this board for 3 1/2 years and when I first joined it did seem that people only really went gaga over hair in the 3's.  In the past year or so it seems people are becoming more accepting of c-napp hair but it is usually long and in excellent shape, someone with two inches of 3b hair will get way more love and compliments on "their pretty curls" before a short-haired c-napp.  I am glad people's perception of what is beautiful is evolving.


----------



## jazitones (May 31, 2009)

hopeful said:


> I do think that c-napp is rare and I agree with Cheleigh that it is endlessly fascinating.  But you make a really good point and if you are right what a shame.  Every now and then a long-haired c-napp will post pics on this forum and it always takes my breath away.  I've been on this board for 3 1/2 years and when I first joined it did seem that people only really went gaga over hair in the 3's.  In the past year or so it seems people are becoming more accepting of c-napp hair but it is usually long and in excellent shape, someone with two inches of 3b hair will get way more love and compliments on "their pretty curls" before a short-haired c-napp.  I am glad people's perception of what is beautiful is evolving.



Remarkable words.  I like your view point.


----------



## kurlybella (Jun 1, 2009)

sonce said:


> Oh cool! We do seem to have the same kind of hair, and I love "4 alphabet." Sometimes I want to let my hair dry in a wash 'n go, take a picture, and see what the consensus is on what my hair type is...but that would require detangling after the wash 'n go and the thought of the tangles I'd be dealing with is terrifying. I don't think I'll ever have an unmanipulated wash 'no go in my album, so I'll just have to keep wondering what my hair type is.


 

i could have wrote this. hair typing confuses me  and i realize in the end, it don't matta! i'm 4a-z too and who cares. all i know is i have to keep moisture in my hair and treat it well; all this talk of bends and curls don't matter to me anymore. 

i've done unmanipulated hair and it was okay. i just detangled well before hand and my hair texture just is what it is. 

i remember when i posted this a while back -- so confused about my hair: http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=312449&highlight=

some say 4a some say i'm 4b or a combo. whatev.


----------



## kimmy89 (Jun 1, 2009)

I gave up on typing a long time ago, when i decide that I'm a 4b, i see curls and coils a so i don't bother any more.


----------



## JinaRicci (Jun 1, 2009)

^^ me too!  just too much going on to fit w/in any type- way too confusing.


----------



## gmw (Jun 1, 2009)

I claim 4a--z still because that is the majority of my hair texture. 

I will say that the size of my curl/coil has nothing to do with the product I use if I compare it to other 4's regimens. 

My regimen is about moisture MOISTURE and little protein from time to time, all in the non heavy product category. I can get by with some shea butter, but it has to be whipped with something else or it will sit on my hair, and make my scalp break out!

Castor sits in my hair, does nothing for me. 

I rarely use heat, as my hair is super fragile, and responds to moisture. WNG are good for me as long as I detangle in the shower w/cheapie conditioner daily, if I am wearing them daily. 

Here is my hair wet with no product:


----------



## PurAngl1 (Aug 3, 2009)

mwedzi said:


> Well, you guys know, the "cnapp" designation was created not too long ago. So if you want to know what it is, go to the creators. Go to the blog Nappturology, or the forum CNappyMeNow. It doesn't make any sense to me for a group of people to come up with a name for their hair and then have other people come in and say "no, your hair is not that category". How could it not be? *The term was made precisely to describe their hair*, *so if anybody is in that category, they are*. The defining characteristic of cnapp hair, as I understand it (and I chat a lot on the cnapp forum), is that it doesn't clump into curls. Sometimes it does clump into . . . clumps (not curls). Sometimes (usually, seems to me), the individual strands have curls and coils. But the whole package, even with wet or product, looks like cotton fluff and not like curls. And so cnapps save their money when it comes to buying products that "define your curls" cuz there aren't any to define. Any other characteristic is secondary and may vary among individuals. Based on this definition, I think cnapp hair is very common.
> 
> Now that whole 4a and 4b thing, I'm still a little confused over it.


 

You are on point with this. I just discovered that I am a C-Napp, which explains alot. Before I categorized my hair as 4b, but on the inside I would say 4z. Now I know why most products don't work well. I will have to do some research on this hair type and find out what products work for me.


----------



## anon123 (Aug 3, 2009)

Crackers Phinn said:


> ok here is the JCoily oversimplified guide to type 4 hair.
> 
> 4A hair (thin/fine) - looks like a well defined *twistout* unmanipulated.  This hair clumps into a coil or spring. More times than not people mistake it as 3c because of the definition but the key difference between type 3C and 4A is natural shine.  3 shines without camera flash 4 does not.
> 
> ...



This makes a lot of sense, the difference in appearance based on density.


----------



## Hairsofab (Aug 3, 2009)

Guapa1 said:


> I actually don't think c-napp hair is rare. I just don't think they keep albums, because they think people are not interested in their hair, plus when they get typed wrong and nothing works, they give up. Let's be real here, it's only on hair boards that people compliment this type of hair.


 
I agree. Also, I think it is rare for cnapp's to actually keep their hair in a loose natural state. I would describe my hair as majority cnapp. And I've transitioned 3 times. After a couple of years, I usually go back to relaxing. I imagine others are the same way. I don't know how rare cnapp hair is though since not many stay natural. I've only seen a couple of people on lhcf that I would consider a hair twin. In real life, I've never seen another natural with my hair type. When I first started here, I tried Kinky curly and all these type of things, thinking it would give me a curl but they did nothing. NOTHING. Just made my hair greasy. I remember reading a blog entry here by someone (I forget who), who said she couldn't go natural because she had "slave hair", super dense cottony hair I guess it what she meant, and no one understood. I imagine a lot of people with cnapp hair have this feeling.


----------



## Junebug D (Aug 3, 2009)

kblc06 said:


> *Cocoberry:
> 
> *I do think there is a distinct difference between regular 4a, 4b hair and cnapp hair:
> 
> ...



I remember crazycoil, she was very inspirational.  I see people with her hair type every blue moon. This was her hair up close:




And styled:




(Will remove upon request!)

-----------------------------------------
I have no idea whether or not I am a C-Napp. Someone from there said I am a true c-napp though. I just always claim 4b. I had never seen so many people claim 4a/4b until I started reading here, to be honest. Elsewhere people just picked whichever was dominant because it was assumed that most of us have multiple textures anyway.  

My hair, air-dried, no product, no manipulation:




It forms clumps, no visible curl pattern. The strands are verrry tightly coiled that they form "O" shapes. I always hear about "S" and "Z" shapes, but I have straight "O" shapes. 

A fresh BC, the hair is tightly coiled into small "O" shapes, making my scalp extra-visible:





Wet hair, post conditioning (I have some strands that are heat-stretched now):


----------



## kurlybella (Aug 3, 2009)

i just gave up on this mess. i'm 4. i'm nappy, kinky and curly. that's all i know. and this 4c stuff...what's that all about? i don't care anymore. i really, really don't. it just seems so useless to me now and laughable at how as a newbie to healthy hair care i cared so much. not anymore.


----------



## sunshinelady (Aug 3, 2009)

I think what distinguishes a c-napp is dryness.  The hair does not hold moisture nor soften with oil.


----------



## sunshinelady (Aug 3, 2009)

I just want to clarify that having your hair grow in locks does not mean that it has coils.  Some hair just grows in sections.


----------



## Nonie (Aug 4, 2009)

I dunno CNAPP is just manipulated 4B hair as far as I'm concerned. My coily/curly/nappy/spirally 4B hair seen here without products and unmanipulated looks like the pics below when manipulated and fits that entire description given for CNapp:









4B hair is hardly ever left alone long enough to form coils and because the coils are so small that they'd lead to tangled hair that cannot be redeemed plus because the coils are so small when they form, they hardly stand out, so what's the point? 

4A hair has bigger coils so a WNG looks all spirally. But unless you're really close up to 4B hair, you cannot see the spirals and when 4B hair dries, it shrinks back into itself forming a compact mass instead of dangly bouncy coils. This WNG look seen here on a few strands close up, looks like the pic below on more hair from afar and when all the hair shrinks back on itself*. 






Someone once mentioned seeing coils in her hair that she'd never seen before due to moisturizing her hair better. I will admit that until I started DCing (thanks Cathy Howse) I had never seen my hair look any different from how it looks in these pics:






Excuse the bald patch:





Now that I have learned the right way to add moisture to hair, my hair seems to have definition all through if I don't manipulate it:

This is clearly seen on a few strands:





And while not as clear when the hair is all compact, one cannot deny the small coils all uniform throughout my hair (although this is hair that has been combed wet):





But I would never leave it like that. I'd not be able to run a comb through it if I left it like that. So any time you see my hair, you will probably see it in CNapp mode because I have to ensure I keep it from getting tangled by combing it, stretching it, manipulating the coils to keep them from wrapping around each other and knotting. And it is because I am not too concerned with having "definition" that I rarely have knots coz I keep my hair braided.

This was a braid out:





This was just my hair washed, conditioned and air-dried in a braid and then undone when dry. No coils whatsoever. Definitely CNapp definition would fit it:





Another "interesting" photo of my hair  





So my definition is as follows: 

4A hair has bigger coils than a pen springs. WNGs really stand out on it and mimic what type 3C hair looks like with WNGs, only with smaller coils.

4B hair has tiny coils smaller than pen springs. It's hair that even if not manipulated will not really show a WNG where spirals are loose and bouncy. A WNG on 4B hair will either lead to chunks that seem to coil at the ends and the bases just look like these indefinite chunks of hair. Or if you comb it while wet and then leave it ie WNG, like I would coz I just don't take risk with tangles, it shinks down to a lumpy afro looking like a compact rug you'd find outside a door with the words welcome. 

Both 4A and 4B hair can be combed into a perfect afro. 4B looking like a microphone with no distinct texture appearance but all smooth kinda like a cloud as seen in this puff*:





4A hair looks coily kinda like the Cozy phony puff that I use sometimes:





I don't know if you can see the difference in texture between the two fros. My real one (first one) seems to have no coil definition. The coils are too small to see except close up. 4A phony puff on the other hand is clearly made of curls albeit smaller than those on type 3 hair and looks fluffy. 

Finally, CNapp is a STATE that 4B hair goes into after it has been combed and braided, and as a lot of people do, brushed. The manipulation temporarily alters the natural coily shape of the strands so they appear to have no shape at all. Do that more often and you may never see the coils your hair has. 

Hair out of braids in CNapp mode:





Same CNapp hair above just detangled:





Hair just taken out of those "interesting" coils and detangled with fingers but not combed:





Hair just after braids:





BTW, except for the photo of the WNG puff (chunky puff) where I had applied lots of SCurl Gel coz a 4A-er told me it'd stretch my hair and cause fluffy, bouncy coils (Didn't work; shrunk into a compact mass instead), and the photo of the microphone puff with twist in the front where I uses S Curl spray my staple moisturizer when styling my hair to wear out, my hair in all the other photos has no products. (Oh except for that "interesting" do where a stylist put Paul Mitchell before she went to town on my head.  )

No one's hair grows out of their head with no definition. Look at anyone who grows hair from a bald head and you will see a pattern. Some people may have different textures and hence patterns but the pattern is uniform and orderly and repeated. The only people who have CNapp hair are people whose hair is longer than a centimeter and are manipulating it a lot.

My mom's CNapp wanna-be hair seen here after a good conditioning and moisturizing revealed coils and curls she never knew she had:


----------



## DarkandLovely (Aug 5, 2009)

Thanks Nonie for the breakdown w/ pics..I never really understood the difference between 4a and 4b hair but now I think I get it


----------



## andromeda (Aug 5, 2009)

Guapa1 said:


> That's right, this reminds me of a convo I had with my gran last week. (Imagine a Jamaican accent)
> 
> Mama: G1, you need fe put some grease in yu hair. It look dry and natty.
> G1: Mama, I have got grease in my hair, in fact I done it yesterday.
> ...



 

This thread is among the most helpful I've come across.  I find typiing confusing (as evidenced in my siggy) but I think having generally accepted hair categories based on curl size, pattern, uniformity, texture, density, porosity, sheen/shine is very helpful in figuring out what works best for one's hair.  Even if we can't arrive at a consensus, the discussion that's taken place in this thread has really opened my eyes to the different characteristics of my hair that I should be taking note of.

I'm tempted to say I'm a 4b/z but that's based on my hair pre-relaxer (and a few times when I've let it grow out natural under weaves) but back then a boar-bristle brush was my best friend, so who knows?  I just vividly remember having _no waves, _let alone curl definition when my hair was styled in fat twists, braids and buns as a child...


----------



## anon123 (Aug 5, 2009)

technically, the difference between 4a and 4b is not coil size, though.  by the original definition, the difference is in the patterning of the hair, not in the size of the coil.  isn't this so? (i'm willing to be corrected)  Naturally Curly's addendum adds that the difference between 4a and 4b is :


> 4a hair has a clearly visible curl and wave pattern that ranges from pen size curls to pen spring size coils.  4b hair has a tighter wave pattern and kinks of various size.


----------



## ladylibra (Aug 5, 2009)

Way off topic but Nonie, I love your hair!


----------



## PikiNiki (Aug 5, 2009)

This has to be the most informative breakdown (I've seen anyway) on 4a/b hair. Now I can actually say with certainty that my 2 yr old DD is 4a. Thanks for taking the time for posting one of such detail and visuals, Nonie.


----------



## PerplexingComplex (Aug 5, 2009)

Thank you, shan & noni for officially confusing me about my hair type .  My hair looks like the close up of crazycoil's hair, shan's wet hair, noni's dry hair (after being combed wet, then unmanipulated) & the phony puff when combed out.


----------



## LilBrownied (Aug 5, 2009)

Guapa1 said:


> I actually don't think c-napp hair is rare. I just don't think they keep albums, because they think people are not interested in their hair, plus when they get typed wrong and nothing works, they give up. *Let's be real here, it's only on hair boards that people compliment this type of hair.*



For real. erplexed


----------



## Nonie (Aug 5, 2009)

mwedzi said:


> technically, the difference between 4a and 4b is not coil size, though.  by the original definition, the difference is in the patterning of the hair, not in the size of the coil.  isn't this so? (i'm willing to be corrected)  Naturally Curly's addendum adds that the difference between 4a and 4b is :
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 Size of curl is the difference between 4A and 4B. And Naturally Curly's addendum just confirms that. Let's examine those definitions you quoted closely. 


4a - clearly visible curl and wave pattern that ranges from pen size curls to pen spring size coils

4b - tighter wave pattern and kinks of various size​Definition of "kink":



Merriam Webster: "a short tight twist or curl caused by a doubling or winding of something upon itself"
Wordsmyth English Dictionary-Thesaurus: "a short, tight curl or twist, as in a wire, hose, or hair."
Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English: "a twist in something that is normally straight"
Encarta Dictionary: "*tight coil: *a tight twist or coil in an otherwise straight section of something such as rope, string, or wire"
OK, so a kink is a *tight twist, coil or a curl*. Manipulated 4B hair has tight bends and twists and curls all at once. Unmanipulated 4B has tight curls/coils. Put another way, unmanipulated 4B is is _kinky_.

The word _kinky_ I just used there is clearly from the word _kink_, so a good guess would be that kinky means "_that which is made of tight twists, coils or curls_" but just to make sure, why not look up the definition of "kinky":



Merriam Webster: "closely twisted or curled"
Wordsmyth English Dictionary-Thesaurus: "having tight twists or curls, as hair"
Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English: "kinky hair has a lot of small curves"
Encarta Dictionary: "*tightly coiled: *full of tight coils"

So paraphrasing Naturally Curly's definition without changing the meaning:

4a hair has a *clearly visibl*e curl and wave pattern that ranges from pen size curls to pen spring size coils. 

4b hair has a *tighter* wave pattern and _tight_ _curls/coils/twists_ of various size.​That's exactly my understanding too. The only difference between 4A and 4B is size and therefore visibility of curl/coil:


 4A curls/coils are larger and therefore clearly visible even from afar (as seen in my phony puff) which is why WNGs stand out well in 4A hair.
 4B curls/coils on the other hand are tighter (smaller) and not as clearly visible (as seen in the puff of my own hair) which is why WNGs do not show up the same way as they do in 4A hair.

ETA: Mwedzi, I forgot to comment on point you made that "pattern" is what differentiates 4A and 4B. Why that definition is wrong is because the definition assigned to 4B hair "no coil/curl pattern" or whatever it is that Andre said, only applies to manipulated 4B hair. No hair grows out of anyone's head all willy nilly without taking some form of uniform pattern that repeats itself throughout its length, whether it's a wave, curl, coil, or just straight.


----------



## doll-baby (Aug 5, 2009)

When I read the description of what a c-napp is I identified with that. I think the 4b category is too limiting. 4a still has curls and coils, 4b tight coils, but I don't have that so I never really considered my hair to be a 4b, but because that was the last category for hair typing I begrudgingly claimed it while seeing no similarities between my hair and the ladies with 4b type hair. What ever you want to call my hair type I just want to be able to grow/ retain and grow and retain some more


----------



## Nonie (Aug 5, 2009)

rosa praeclara said:


> This thread is among the most helpful I've come across.  I find typiing confusing (as evidenced in my siggy) but I think having generally accepted hair categories based on curl size, pattern, uniformity, texture, density, porosity, sheen/shine is very helpful in figuring out what works best for one's hair.  Even if we can't arrive at a consensus, the discussion that's taken place in this thread has really opened my eyes to the different characteristics of my hair that I should be taking note of.
> 
> I'm tempted to say I'm a 4b/z but that's based on my hair pre-relaxer (and a few times when I've let it grow out natural under weaves) but back then a boar-bristle brush was my best friend, so who knows?  I just vividly remember having _no waves, _let alone curl definition when my hair was styled in fat twists, braids and buns as a child...



I bet my bottom dollar that brushing is what hid your true texture from you.


----------



## anon123 (Aug 5, 2009)

Nonie said:


> ETA: Mwedzi, I forgot to comment on point you made that "pattern" is what differentiates 4A and 4B. Why that definition is wrong is because the definition assigned to 4B hair "no coil/curl pattern" or whatever it is that Andre said, only applies to manipulated 4B hair. No hair grows out of anyone's head all willy nilly without taking some form of uniform pattern that repeats itself throughout its length, whether it's a wave, curl, coil, or just straight.



In that case, we are making up our own definition of 4b.  If that's what folks want to do, okay, but the original definition is not that. The addendum was added by readers.  I can accept it because it does make sense.

I see plenty of bends (i.e. "kinks") in the closeup of your lovely unmanipulated hair, just like I see them in mine every time I would wash.   At some point, what is relevant is how the hair behaves.  If my hair grows in perfect coils, I have never seen it other than 2 regular dime-sized patches on my head.  If I have never seen it (and that includes not manipulating it or trying to manipulate it), then functionally it is true that that is not how my hair is.  For all real purposes, perfect coils are not how this hair type is, so why define a classification based on something no one ever sees and which is not realized on anyone's actual head?


----------



## Nonie (Aug 6, 2009)

mwedzi said:


> In that case, we are making up our own definition of 4b.  If that's what folks want to do, okay, but the original definition is not that. The addendum was added by readers.  I can accept it because it does make sense.
> 
> I see plenty of bends (i.e. "kinks") in the closeup of your lovely unmanipulated hair, just like I see them in mine every time I would wash.   At some point, what is relevant is how the hair behaves.  If my hair grows in perfect coils, I have never seen it other than 2 regular dime-sized patches on my head.  If I have never seen it (and that includes not manipulating it or trying to manipulate it), then functionally it is true that that is not how my hair is.  For all real purposes, perfect coils are not how this hair type is, so why define a classification based on something no one ever sees and which is not realized on anyone's actual head?



OK, once again, I do not disagree that 4B hair is made of kinks. It bends and twists and curls and coils. But guess what, so does 4A. 

Nadia Turner's hair is the epitome of 4A hair:








And just as you say of your hair, Nadia's has defined coils in some parts and not in others. But there's a circular structure to the strands whether they bend or not. Like a phone coil, the strands can have a bend that isn't spirally but just coz a phone coil might bend awkwardly in one spot that doesn't take away the fact that the general shape of the phone coil is spirally/curly. Likewise no one questions whether Nadia's hair is curly even though in some parts it seems to have no pattern because the hairs are all separated and mixed together. It clearly is as Andre described it:"tightly coiled hair 				that, when stretched, has an "S" pattern, much like curly hair."

Andre's definition of 4B hair IMO was based on how he saw our hair not from how it's truly structured. Methinks after the 400 years without a comb, people with 4B hair couldn't wait to comb their hair. If it wasn't combed into an afro, it was brushed back with a wooden brush. So it either looked like my afro puff :




Or it looked somewhat like this




So the only way he could think to describe it was "hair which has a "Z" pattern, less of a defined curl pattern 				(instead of curling or coiling, the hair bends in sharp angles like the 				letter "Z").  As I've shown you all before the only time hair gets corners that might be called Z's is after it's been braided. This is a characteristic that I don't thick occurs in other hair types but 4's. 

Seriously Andre can't have really believed anyone's hair grew out of their heads in Z shapes. 

Until 2003 or 2004, I would've sworn my hair was made of Z's. I did so much to it. I combed it dry. I applied so many things to it and fought it to make it succumb to my styling desires. Instead of just allowing my hair to reveal itself to me, I wrestled with it to make it do my bidding. 

It wasn't until one day when I suspected that CON shampoo was coating my hair and leaving it dull and switched to another (L'Anza?) and that baking soda made my hair rough and so conditioned over and over with some moisturizing conditioner and then ACV rinsed,that I beheld the most beautiful hair ever! First of all, my hair had a sheen I'd never seen before. Secondly my hair had a softness that was so foreign to me. And as I looked at my hair in the mirror, hardly able to take my eyes off it, I noticed something else: my hair was made of tiny curls that looked like pen springs. I'd seen that description on the forum here but had never understood it. Not until that day. 

These were the twists I had just washed the day I saw my hair in a new light:





And here is a close-up of how my twists looked:





These photos were taken in the fall of 2004.

Now before you tell me that the twists caused the spirals to happen, let me assure you that this wasn't the first time I'd washed my hair in twists. But in the past, the ends would just look frayed. It's as if I had finally got my hair to its optimum pH. I will have to see if there is anyway to determine if I had ever ACV rinsed my hair before this. Another thing I just found out is that I was using a spritz of glycerin, ACV, distilled water and EOs to keep my hair "moisturized". So I guess you could say that may have had something to do with it. 

But years later, when I don't even use a spritz, my hair hasn't changed its characteristics as discovered that day in 2004. I'm going to undo a section of my hair (I'm in braids) and wash it. Then I'll take pics of it dripping wet unmanipulated (no products). I'll let it dry without manipulating it and take another pic (no products) and then I will apply moisturizer and take a pic of what it looks like. I've taken pics before of my hair at the side of my head, at the front, at the back so I'll pick a section at the crown and do this experiment. Since I've never really paid attention to how it looks with product, I'm curious to see what happens when I apply product... :scratchch

BB in a few.

OK, here are pics of my hair as umanipulated as possible without letting it turn into big ol' knot. 

After washing my hair and conditioning then rinsing out, I left it dripping wet (I didn't ACV rinse to save time). Notice how loving my strands are (awww) getting all cuddly and cozy with each other 





I had to keep tilting my head every few minutes so the hair stays as separated as possible and would take the pics in that position so the hair could be visible and not camouflaged by my big 'ead  Here's the unmanipulated hair no products dry:





And then I applied S Curl to see what difference that makes. I smoothed it from base to ends so there was some manipulating but not as much as a comb would:





I'd get tired of leaning and trying to get a clear pic so I would straight up every now and then and also took pics of my head upright:















To get perspective of which part of my head you are looking at, I took these two pics:





And so I still maintain my stand that my 4B hair behaves just like 4A hair but the coils are so much smaller than those of 4A that they cannot be seen from afar the way 4A coils can. I think the addendum from the members of Naturally Curly was a very good observation and a definite improvement of Andre's weird definition of 4B. And as I pointed out, this very insightful addendum agrees with me that both 4A and 4B are made of wave patterns and tight curls/coils (also known as kinks), but those of 4A are *pen size and clearly visible*--something that isn't true of 4B which are teeny in varying sizes (I think you once found a coil in your hair the size of the D in the word DIME on the coin itself and for you to point it out, I'm guessing it was smaller than you'd ever seen before?). And I further showed using photos that 4A hair does have bends (which are what you call kinks, while for me the word encompasses curls and twists and coils as well) in addition to having curls and coils just like my 4B hair does.


----------



## Nonie (Aug 6, 2009)

shan_2001 said:


> I remember crazycoil, she was very inspirational.  I see people with her hair type every blue moon. This was her hair up close:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Crazycoil's hair behaves exactly as I expect 4B hair to behave. When at rest and not styled, it is clearly made of curls/coils/spirals/bends. When styled it takes on an appearance of what folks call CNapps. My hair does the same thing.  I think we might be twins. 

ETA: I think the best definition for 4B hair would be to keep the NC addendum but add to it that "when styled, 4B hair has an appearance of CNapps" and then just post photos of CNapps coz I think CNapp hair is pretty self-explanatory.


----------



## scarcity21 (Aug 6, 2009)

^^^^ without quoting ur pics and all, Nonie I just love the way u break it down....we are definitely hair twins


----------



## AfroKink (Aug 6, 2009)

Nonie said:


> Crazycoil's hair behaves exactly as I expect 4B hair to behave. When at rest and not styled, it is clearly made of curls/coils/spirals/bends. When styled it takes on an appearance of what folks call CNapps. My hair does the same thing.  I think we might be twins.
> 
> ETA: *I think the best definition for 4B hair would be to keep the NC addendum but add to it that "when styled, 4B hair has an appearance of CNapps"* and then just post photos of CNapps coz I think CNapp hair is pretty self-explanatory.



But 'when styled' can't 4a hair take on the appearance of 4b? and 3c take on the appearance of 4a? The determining factor being that 4b cannot naturally be made to look like 4a and 4a cannot naturally be made to look like 3c...  Like when people say that their hair looks like 4a when they wash it, but if they put gel and shake it looks like 3c. Then to me it means that they really are 3c. Like the pictures recently posted of Terri. Her hair can look like this:





or it can look like this





With manipulation a person with a 'lower hair type" like 3a, 3b, 3c can manipulate their hair to look like a 'higher hair type" like 3b, 3c, 4a. But NOT vice versa. I tried Terri's method and just not tangles. What I'm saying is that yes, 4b hair can look like cnapp, but cnapp is not going to look like 4b hair. Just because your hair can form defined curls/coils in certain conditions doens't mean that those with cnapp hair can.


----------



## anon123 (Aug 6, 2009)

Nonie said:


> Nadia Turner's hair is the epitome of 4A hair:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Okay, Nonie.    The last things I will say are these.  First, you are right about 4a potentially having bends (though Nadia's hair is manipulated in those photos).  Yes, I agree.  I don't know that it _all_ does, which is what I was talking about in the other thread I started on smooth coils or kinked coils. 

The other thing is about the Zs.  After some reading about the structure of hair follicles, it seems safe to say that some people's are structured to give a smoother coil while others' coils bend more sharply.  This is just a natural progression.  Just as wavy hair bends very softly and slowly, as the follicle hooks/curves or the more to the side of the follicle that the hair bulb lies, the sharper the turns and bends.  So the smaller the coil, the more tightly it will turn, and this is what gives the appearance of "z"s.  After all a "z" is an "s", just with a tight bend.

Interesting discussion in which I've learned a lot.    Our hair is fascinating.  For a closeup of our hair shaft and the way it kinks/curls, try googling "african sub-saharan hair".  You'll get a Google Book result from Human Hair Diversity with a nice microscope view of our strands on pg. 30 and some informative text on our kinks. 

btw, I don't think Crazy Coil's hair is _that_ rare.  The closeup of her hair looks just like mine.  That closeup and a few other pictures on her site also show that her hair doesn't have to look as matte as it does in her wrap bun pic.  While hers does naturally reflect light less than many others' hair, those particular pics, I think, are a result of lighting, her hair color, and not using certain types of moisturizers.  Also, I've seen her shrinkage vs. stretched hair photos and it's just like mine.  I'm sad her site is gone.


----------



## Nonie (Aug 6, 2009)

MissAlyssa said:


> But 'when styled' can't 4a hair take on the appearance of 4b? and 3c take on the appearance of 4a? The determining factor being that 4b cannot naturally be made to look like 4a and 4a cannot naturally be made to look like 3c...  Like when people say that their hair looks like 4a when they wash it, but if they put gel and shake it looks like 3c. Then to me it means that they really are 3c. Like the pictures recently posted of Terri. Her hair can look like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think the day I'll believe CNapp doesn't have curls/kinks/coils/bends like my hair is the day I myself am trusted with CNapp hair for a week to be in charge of it and to simplify the regimen (even if just of one section) and it never ever goes into a "resting mode" where it looks like my hair. Until then, I'm not going to believe it. Why? Because as I stated before I had CNapp hair until the new millennium. I had never seen my hair any differently. And as Mwedzi said, Crazycoils hair looks different in different states, which is what I've noticed with my hair. Also I think the darker the hair the more it appears to shine, and Crazycoil's hair is the blackest of black w/r/t mine. Mine looks like a faded black. Yet there are times when moisturized it appears to have a sheen and other times it's just as dull as can be.

Anyway, I don't think we'll ever get to agree and I don't think it's that serious. But if ever I do get my hands on CNapp hair and I'm entrusted to do with it as I please, I'll be sure to take pics and report back.

BTW, I'd be interested in knowing Crazycoil's regimen if anyone knows it.

ETA: Mwedzi, you mentioned that Crazycoil's hair is like yours. I have told you before that I believe we have the same hair and yesterday after seeing CC's hair w/o even knowing that you thought it looked like yours, I exclaimed she and I are twins. I see my hair in yours all the time which is why I still maintain my definition of 4B and that yours is 4B. 

Oh and Nadia's hair I believe is most manipulated in the parts where it's not clumping, like to the right where it looks frizzy. If she were to wash her hair and just let it be, I can bet my bottom dollar the same features I pointed out would be evident throughout her hair. Anything that coils like a phone coil is bound to have a bend here and here that interrupts the uniform pattern, especially if its diameter is as small as that of hair.


----------



## ladylibra (Aug 6, 2009)

Nonie said:


> Nadia Turner's hair is the epitome of 4A hair:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What's with all that fluff on the right side of Nadia's picture?  Is that supposed to be 4a or 4b?  And someone tell me, how come Nadia's looser coils are being depicted as 4a, but mine are always called 3c? 

About the bolded.  I thought 4a was pen-size to penspring-size, no?

I soooooooo can't stand hair typing... the more peoople talk about it, the more it confuses me...


----------



## anon123 (Aug 6, 2009)

Nonie said:


> Oh and Nadia's hair I believe is most manipulated in the parts where it's not clumping, like to the right where it looks frizzy. If she were to wash her hair and just let it be, I can bet my bottom dollar the same features I pointed out would be evident throughout her hair. Anything that coils like a phone coil is bound to have a bend here and here that interrupts the uniform pattern, especially if its diameter is as small as that of hair.



Okay, Nonie, your powers of persuasion have won me over.   I'm convinced.


----------



## Southernbella. (Aug 6, 2009)

Alright, I'm still confused, but based on yall's definitions, I'm starting to think think I'm mostly 4A with a little 4B around the edges. I always thought I had a lot more 4b hair. I don't know. 

Pic heavy: These are on various wash days, all unmanipulated 

Front, wet with no product







More of the front






Side, dry with no product











Wet, with conditioner






Damp, no product







Dry...I can't tell if there's product or not. That could either be the flash or dried conditioner 






ETA:

Puff, dry with no product. See how my edges look more on the 4b side?


----------



## ladylibra (Aug 6, 2009)

^^^  Gorgeous hair...

I would say you've got a lot of 4a coils in there.


----------



## Southernbella. (Aug 6, 2009)

ladylibra said:


> ^^^  Gorgeous hair...
> 
> I would say you've got a lot of 4a coils in there.



Thank you ll. 

I'm still confused. Sometimes my hair can look 4A and sometimes it can look 4b, but most times it looks like a mixture of both. My hair in the back has smaller coils and shrinks more, so I've always assumed it was 4B, but someone said Nadia is all 4A which threw me off because my hair looks like her with manipulation (picking out with my fingers). The coarse/thickness of my hair also throws me off.

Andre sucks.


----------



## Luscious Locks (Aug 6, 2009)

Southernbella. said:


> Thank you ll.
> 
> I'm still confused. Sometimes my hair can look 4A and sometimes it can look 4b, but most times it looks like a mixture of both. My hair in the back has smaller coils and shrinks more, so I've always assumed it was 4B, but someone said Nadia is all 4A which threw me off because my hair looks like her with manipulation (picking out with my fingers). The coarse/thickness of my hair also throws me off.
> 
> Andre sucks.


 
_COSIGNING ON ALL OF THIS_


----------



## FindingMe (Aug 6, 2009)

Nonie said:


> OK, once again, I do not disagree that 4B hair is made of kinks. It bends and twists and curls and coils. But guess what, so does 4A.
> 
> Nadia Turner's hair is the epitome of 4A hair:
> 
> ...


 
I am SO confused.  I thought I was 4a-ish, but my hair doesn't behave quite like Nadia's hair, but I don't think I am in the 3's either....


----------



## Junebug D (Aug 6, 2009)

I don't know anything about Nadia, but something about her hair does not look natural to me. Maybe she has pieces added in that picture?

The coils are what I thought of as 3C. if her whole head looked like those coils in front, would people really say she is a type 4?


----------



## Nonie (Aug 6, 2009)

shan_2001 said:


> I don't know anything about Nadia, but something about her hair does not look natural to me. Maybe she has pieces added in that picture?
> 
> The coils are what I thought of as 3C.* if her whole head looked like those coils in front, would people really say she is a type 4*?



*I* would still say she was type 4. Her hair looks to me exactly like SouthernBella's hair.  And to me SB is definitely 4A. 

The coils you're looking at are just what curly hair looks like when it clumps. Heck even I, with my 4B hair, had some of that when I magnified my hair.  See?


----------



## Nonie (Aug 6, 2009)

FindingMe said:


> I am SO confused.  I thought I was 4a-ish, but my hair doesn't behave quite like Nadia's hair, but I don't think I am in the 3's either....



You could be 3C/4A. I think a few people on the board are in that group. (Your hair in the siggy looks to me like it could have some 3 in it.)



ladylibra said:


> What's with all that fluff on the right side of Nadia's picture?  Is that supposed to be 4a or 4b?  And someone tell me, *how come Nadia's looser coils are being depicted as 4a, but mine are always called 3c*?
> 
> About the bolded.  I thought 4a was pen-size to penspring-size, no?
> 
> I soooooooo can't stand hair typing... the more peoople talk about it, the more it confuses me...


LadyLibra, your hair doesn't tightly coil like a phone coil the way Nadia's is doing. Your hair has coils that look looser. I think that's the difference. 

Rachel True is supposed to be 3C. Notice how similar her hair is to yours:


----------



## Junebug D (Aug 6, 2009)

Ok, so phone coils are 4A and stretched-out "S" coils are 3C?  Tiny, tight coils (that can resemble O's when cut/broken) are 4B? And c-napp is manipulated 4B. (I have seen 4B being used interchangeably with c-napp on their blog).  I think that's it, Nonie?


----------



## Junebug D (Aug 6, 2009)

Southernbella. said:


> Alright, I'm still confused, but based on yall's definitions, I'm starting to think think I'm mostly 4A with a little 4B around the edges. I always thought I had a lot more 4b hair. I don't know.
> 
> Pic heavy: These are on various wash days, all unmanipulated
> 
> ...


 

Southernbella does appear to be mostly 4a; I believe it's the thickness & density of her hair that makes her individual coils difficult to discern.


----------



## ladylibra (Aug 6, 2009)

Nonie said:


> LadyLibra, your hair doesn't tightly coil like a phone coil the way Nadia's is doing. Your hair has coils that look looser. I think that's the difference.
> 
> Rachel True is supposed to be 3C. Notice how similar her hair is to yours:





Okay.  Your explanation makes sense.  But the picture of Rachel doesn't.  Even she has a variety of curl/coil patterns going on.  I guess it's just hard because people with textured hair often have more than one texture going on.


----------



## Nonie (Aug 6, 2009)

ladylibra said:


> Okay.  Your explanation makes sense.  *But the picture of Rachel doesn't*.  Even she has a variety of curl/coil patterns going on.  I guess it's just hard because people with textured hair often have more than one texture going on.



I don't get your point. Indeed she does have curl/coil patterns--a characteristic that is common to all curly hair. But notice how loose her curls and yours are compared to Nadia's. It's like the difference between a phone coil at rest and one slightly stretched, and then a difference in coil size.

Both 3's and 4's are curly but 4's are kinky. In other word 4's are not just curly but their curls are also tight, like compressed springs. 3's are like a slightly stretched out spring. The also behave differently when dry I think but I can't think how to explain that  so just ignore that last point.

ETA: What do you mean by the bold?


----------



## anon123 (Aug 6, 2009)

Southernbella. said:


> Wet, with conditioner
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lovely hair!   Your coils are huge compared to mine!


----------



## Nonie (Aug 6, 2009)

mwedzi said:


> Lovely hair!   Your coils are huge compared to mine!





I want my hair to grow up already and be like yours! Your shrinkage is fantastic!  I hope *when* my hair grows to the length yours is (positive mental attitude here!), it'll have the same characteristics. Seriously, Mwedzi, whose hair can do what yours can? Do you realize just what an awesome mane with endless potential/abilities you have there? That you can go from having a TWA one day, to having a BAA the next, to having BSL "textured" hair, to having straight BSL hair, to having wavy braidout or twist out hair, to having tubes of WNG hair, to having a chunky afro... Need I go on? And the fullness!!! :notworthy

OK, I just realized I hate you too!


----------



## Southernbella. (Aug 6, 2009)

mwedzi said:


> Lovely hair!   Your coils are huge compared to mine!



 Gorgeous! I could get lost in there. 

My coils in back are about the same size as yours in this pic, so if you're 4b, I can consider mine 4b. I have more shrinkage in the back too. 

I need to get some pics of that area. I just realized I don't have very many.


----------



## Nonie (Aug 6, 2009)

Southernbella. said:


> Gorgeous! I could get lost in there.
> 
> My coils in back are about the same size as yours in this pic,* so if you're 4b, I can consider mine 4b*. I have more shrinkage in the back too.
> 
> I need to get some pics of that area. I just realized I don't have very many.



Will you stop being stubborn!  Your hair is without question 4A. Size of coil varies from pen-size coils to pen-spring size coils. Plus even if you happened to have 4B at the back, who gave those few hairs power over all the others? Majority wins so there!


----------



## Southernbella. (Aug 6, 2009)

Nonie said:


> Will you stop being stubborn!  Your hair is without question 4A. Size of coil varies from pen-size coils to pen-spring size coils. Plus even if you happened to have 4B at the back, who gave those few hairs power over all the others? Majority wins so there!



I meant I consider my coils in the back 4b. I still claim 4AB simply because my texture isn't uniform.


----------



## Nonie (Aug 6, 2009)

Southernbella. said:


> I meant I consider my coils in the back 4b. I still claim 4AB simply because my texture isn't uniform.



Oh OK.  

For what its worth, your hair looks uniform to me all through. And I don't think I've said it yet, but it's beautiful. If you ever consider BCing, please make sure you donate to Locks of Love. 

Go on oke:, BC now (suggests the green-eyed monster  ).


----------



## Nonie (Aug 6, 2009)

shan_2001 said:


> Ok, so phone coils are 4A and stretched-out "S" coils are 3C?  Tiny, tight coils (that can resemble O's when cut/broken) are 4B? And c-napp is manipulated 4B. (I have seen 4B being used interchangeably with c-napp on their blog).  I think that's it, Nonie?



Basically!  (But also notice there's a slight difference in size too between  4A coils and 3C coils)


----------



## Junebug D (Aug 6, 2009)

I see it!  The circumference is bigger on the 3C coils.   Neat-o. Thanks Nonie, your photo-posts are always very informative.

Now we need one of these posts breaking down strand sizes.


----------



## ladylibra (Aug 6, 2009)

Nonie said:


> I don't get your point. Indeed she does have curl/coil patterns--a characteristic that is common to all curly hair. But notice how loose her curls and yours are compared to Nadia's. It's like the difference between a phone coil at rest and one slightly stretched, and then a difference in coil size.
> 
> Both 3's and 4's are curly but 4's are kinky. In other word 4's are not just curly but their curls are also tight, like compressed springs. 3's are like a slightly stretched out spring. The also behave differently when dry I think but I can't think how to explain that  so just ignore that last point.
> 
> ETA: What do you mean by the bold?



The front of her hair is much looser than the back.  Which part is 3c?

The front of my hair is incredibly frizzy/less defined without product, whereas the back will coil with or without product.  I may be way off base, but I don't think the back of my hair is as loose of a coil as hers. (Stupid Fotki still not working, or I'd do a side-by-side so I could know for sure. erplexed )



Nonie said:


>



What is that loose wavy piece up top in the first pic?  See, this is why I wanna smack the taste out of Andre's mouth.  The second pic I find very interesting, that she has so little volume when all her hair is "defined."  I could _never_ get my hair that flat.  Is that a texture-based thing?  Or maybe she just doesn't have the same density I do?


----------



## Nonie (Aug 6, 2009)

shan_2001 said:


> I see it!  The circumference is bigger on the 3C coils.   Neat-o. Thanks Nonie, your photo-posts are always very informative.
> 
> *Now we need one of these posts breaking down strand sizes*.


----------



## Nonie (Aug 6, 2009)

ladylibra said:


> I agree that she has a curl/coil pattern - I'm just noting that she has a variety of them on her head.  The front of her hair is much looser than the back.  Which part is 3c?
> 
> The front of my hair is incredibly frizzy/less defined without product, whereas the back will coil with or without product.  I may be way off base, but I don't think the back of my hair is as loose of a coil as hers. (Stupid Fotki still not working, or I'd do a side-by-side so I could know for sure. erplexed )
> 
> ...



 Will you stop nitpicking? Do you want me to go bring you phone cord that looks just like that? Manipulation, my dear. She might have HIH disease and was playing with that one twirling it the opposite way from the normal curl direction or she might've brushed it while wet so it didn't get to take it's "resting state". I 'ono. Maybe it's her one crazy hair. She may also have a variety of textures the way some people do. (There was a member here with a son who was the perfect example of that.  Kid was so adorable even with is afro wanna-be straight wanna-be curly hair. I wish I could remember the visual to describe it. It was just uber-darling.  ) And I doubt anyone's hairs perfect so there are bound to be oddities. OK? 

Feel better now? 


ladylibra said:


> See, this is why I wanna smack the taste out of Andre's mouth.  The second pic I find very interesting, that she has so little volume when all her hair is "defined."  I could _never_ get my hair that flat (outside of using heat to actually straighten it).  *Is that a texture-based thing?  Or maybe she just doesn't have the same density I do?*



It could be a density thing, or a _strand thickness_ thing. 

ETA I think Shan will be breaking _that_^ down for us before too long. (Hi Shan!   )


----------



## Junebug D (Aug 6, 2009)

Wrong number! 

It would be interesting though, and sure would be invaluable to have pics of different hair types, along with strand sizes and density. Like someone posts their pics with 4a, medium density, fine strands and see how that hair looks & behaves vs. a 4a with high density and coarse strands...


----------



## ladylibra (Aug 6, 2009)

Nonie said:


> Will you stop nitpicking? Do you want me to go bring you phone cord that looks just like that? Manipulation, my dear. She might have HIH disease and was playing with that one twirling it the opposite way from the normal curl direction or she might've brushed it while wet so it didn't get to take it's "resting state". I 'ono. Maybe it's her one crazy hair. She may also have a variety of textures the way some people do. (There was a member here with a son who was the perfect example of that.  Kid was so adorable even with is afro wanna-be straight wanna-be curly hair. I wish I could remember the visual to describe it. It was just uber-darling.  ) And I doubt anyone's hairs perfect so there are bound to be oddities. OK?
> 
> Feel better now?



No.  Cuz you still didn't tell me which part was 3c! 

I hate 3c.  I'm throwing it out the window!  Going back to 3b, and 4a.  I understand those. 

Back to the actual discussion, which is about 4b/Cnapp.  I've been wondering this one for a minute, but never took the time to ask since it didn't apply to me.  Is Cnapp only undefined poofy afro-textured hair that has major shrinkage?  What if you have undefined poofy afro-textured hair that doesn't have much shrinkage? (By not much, I mean less than 50%) Like, it appears to be a blowout sort of... but no chemicals or heat have been used.  The hair just looks like a giant cloud of poofy hair naturally.

(Please don't stone me Nonie  )


----------



## Junebug D (Aug 6, 2009)

ladylibra said:


> The second pic I find very interesting, that she has so little volume when all her hair is "defined." I could _never_ get my hair that flat. Is that a texture-based thing? Or maybe she just doesn't have the same density I do?


 
I think that's a density and/or styling thing i.e. the way the hair was set. I wonder which, if either of those pics best represent her hair air-dried without further styling?


----------



## ladylibra (Aug 6, 2009)

shan_2001 said:


> Wrong number!


----------



## Nonie (Aug 6, 2009)

ladylibra said:


> No.  Cuz you still didn't tell me which part was 3c!
> 
> I hate 3c.  I'm throwing it out the window!  Going back to 3b, and 4a.  I understand those.
> 
> ...



I think her whole head is 3C. The back has the same size of coils as the front but the coils could be tighter in the back because the hair is short so it isn't exerting weight or it could just be that it her hair falls on her shoulder and so dries all compressed. But really I think you're overthinking the whole thing. 

Maybe Shan who got the difference can help you see it, but I think you should probably take "all characteristics" into account and the one that is mostly evident is the one you go with. Those compressed springs in the back are I think how short 3C hair would look. But they fit all other descriptions of 3C. Naturally Curly's addendum says "Type 3C is hair with tight curls in corkscrews. The curls can be 				either kinky, or very tightly curled, with lots and lots of strands 				densely packed together. Some people refer to this as "big hair." I think another thing you will see with type 3C is it dangles and reflects light more than 4s so appears to be shinier.

Perhaps the elimination process might work best for you. Your hair does not fit the type 4A or 4B descriptions or photos so you know you're not that. You are a definite 3. Now if you want to say you're not a 3C, you're on your own there.  Can't help you with 3's coz I know jack about that hair.


----------



## Nonie (Aug 6, 2009)

ladylibra said:


> (Please don't stone me Nonie  )



 Not yet. 



ladylibra said:


> What if you have undefined poofy afro-textured hair that doesn't have much shrinkage? (By not much, I mean less than 50%) Like, it appears to be a blowout sort of... but no chemicals or heat have been used.  The hair just looks like a giant cloud of poofy hair naturally.



I'd say you have quite a lot of work cut out for you trying to figure that out.  

I've seen what you mean. I think you will have to refer to the definition of CNapp and see how many of the traits fit the hair you describe. If it fits perfectly then it just reinforces my statement that CNapp is a state of manipulated hair, although I've only applied it to 4B hair coz only that looks like the hair I keep seeing being called CNapp. 

And on that note.... _"I HAVE BUSINESS CALL..." _


----------



## Cherokee-n-Black (Aug 6, 2009)

_Originally Posted by ladylibra  
What if you have undefined poofy afro-textured hair that doesn't have much shrinkage? (By not much, I mean less than 50%) Like, it appears to be a blowout sort of... but no chemicals or heat have been used. The hair just looks like a giant cloud of poofy hair naturally._

That would be me.  A little curl at the roots and then...nothin'.  It's kind of like, straight frizz?


----------



## ladylibra (Aug 6, 2009)

Nonie said:


> Perhaps the elimination process might work best for you. Your hair does not fit the type 4A or 4B descriptions or photos so you know you're not that. You are a definite 3. Now if you want to say you're not a 3C, you're on your own there.  Can't help you with 3's coz I know jack about that hair.



Now, I can't speak for Rachel True's hair.  But, the hair in my canopy is shorter than the hair at my crown and nape, inches-wise.  I know those are 4a, without a doubt, and can't nobody tell me otherwise!  That hair does not look like nor behave like any type 3 hair.  And I have weird random patches of 4b hair - no doubt about it being 4b either.  The strands are kinky-coily, and don't clump in a uniform coil like the 4a hair does.

The front/canopy of my hair - that's another story...  I guess it is in the 3 family curl-size-wise (is that a word?)


----------



## vainღ♥♡jane (Aug 6, 2009)

*wow this is confusing as heck. i thought for the longest that i was 4a, and now i have no idea what i am. my 4a doesn't look like anyone else's 4a. =[*​


----------



## Optimistic (Aug 6, 2009)

I believe I have C-Napp hair. Some times when I wash and ar dry my hair with no product it looks like I did a blow out it. Then it shrinks to a tiny version of a blow out.

I took a picture of it when I first went natural. Here it is in my fotki. Here I just co-washed it and misted it with a water oil mix. I didnt finger comb or brush it. I just slid a head band around my head. I do the same now even though my hair is longer becaue it comes out in a pretty afro.

http://public.fotki.com/msgordis/


----------



## peachfuzzz (Sep 17, 2009)

subscribing to read later!!


----------



## ResultsMayVary (Jan 24, 2010)

Thanks for this thread!
I think, I've finally figured out where I "fit in"


----------

