# Manifested Glory Ministries uploaded a homosexual exorcism video.



## Qualitee (Jun 24, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhedHERfcXk


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## username12 (Jun 24, 2009)

Why would they videotape this?


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## Qualitee (Jun 24, 2009)

I think homosexuality is a demon spirit just like any other sin.


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## Jhuidah (Jun 24, 2009)

I can't watch past 30 seconds of this. I feel sorry for that dude if he thinks that you can pray gayness out. Either you are or you're not.

ETA:


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## Tyra (Jun 24, 2009)

Am I ridiculous for being too scared to click the link and watch it?erplexed


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## LunadeMiel (Jun 24, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> I think homosexuality is a demon spirit just like any other sin.



   

Girl you are about to get iiiiiiiit!!!!!


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## Qualitee (Jun 24, 2009)

Jhuidah said:


> I can't watch past 30 seconds of this. I feel sorry for that dude if he thinks that you can pray gayness out. Either you are or you're not.
> 
> ETA:


 anything is possible with God. Ive seen many people who were gay turn their lives over to God and changed their homosexual ways.


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## Qualitee (Jun 24, 2009)

LunadeMiel said:


> Girl you are about to get iiiiiiiit!!!!!



 I dont give a damn if anyone wants to get on me about what I said. Thats what I believe and I stand by it. Everyone has the right to believe what they want to believe.


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## Jhuidah (Jun 24, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> anything is possible with God. Ive seen many people who were gay turn their lives over to God and changed their homosexual ways.



Oh, I believe that people can stop acting on their gay proclivities. What I don't believe is that it can be prayed out--it's still there, just not being acted out, for lack of a better term.


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## LunadeMiel (Jun 24, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> I dont give a damn if anyone wants to get on me about what I said. Thats what I believe and I stand by it. Everyone has the right to believe what they want to believe.



Oh IA that you should be able to say what you want but still.....


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## 14got (Jun 24, 2009)

I have seen these kind of things happen at a holiness church I used to go to
one lady would be released a couple of times a year


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## curlcomplexity (Jun 24, 2009)

Be right back....


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## LiberianGirl (Jun 24, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> I think homosexuality is a demon spirit just like any other sin.



But yet you have that obviously gay male in your siggy?


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## Qualitee (Jun 24, 2009)

LiberianGirl said:


> But yet you have that obviously gay male in your siggy?


 ok? ............ I think its funny. People can still like/befriend someone and not agree with their life style.


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## Mortons (Jun 24, 2009)

ok.......


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## toinette (Jun 24, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> anything is possible with God. Ive seen many people who were gay turn their lives over to God and changed their homosexual ways.



changed their homosexual ways as in sex? yes. Changed the core of their sexuality and such? I doubt it


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## TrustMeLove (Jun 24, 2009)

There are alot of webpages focused on folks who want freedom from homosexuality...Shimmie posted this link in another forum. It was pretty interesting.

The website could have been about any sin. They talked about staying up praying to be changed....and how that doesn't work....it was good. I was like  yea I've prayed for instant delieverance too and it doesn't work for the majority. But, you can take steps from turning away from something that you just can't seem to help...that it's something you have always felt and always dealt with...and felt guilty about but found folks who felt like it was ok too....so you jsut did it..but eventually didn't feel like it was right to do.

This is the link Shimmie posted...I've never seen anything like it..http://www.peoplecanchange.com


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## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Jun 24, 2009)

I just can't watch the whole thing.  I skipped around to certain parts and it's very disturbing to watch.  If that was in fact real God bless his heart.  That just ain't no joke.


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## GeorginaSparks (Jun 24, 2009)

A lot of gay guys change without exorcism. As they get older and are ready to start a family, they get with women, marry one, have kids and live happily ever after....well until the wife finds out he likes it in the....youknowwhat.

I think its ridiculous. I dont care how many prayers have been made to drive out the homosexual demon(if there is such a thing) but i do NOT want to be with a man that has been with other men.


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## Mortons (Jun 24, 2009)

Kei said:


> I have seen these kind of things happen at a holiness church I used to go to
> one lady would be released a couple of times a year



It didn't work right the first time? erplexed


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## Je Ne Sais Quoi (Jun 24, 2009)

Mortons said:


> It didn't work right the first time? erplexed


 

I would imagine that once you are rid of demons they can and will return w/ a vengance if you continue to live the same life style...


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## Iansan (Jun 24, 2009)

So how does one get possessed by this gay demon?


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## Qualitee (Jun 24, 2009)

Iansan said:


> So how does one get possessed by this gay demon?


 The same way you can get possessed by any other demon. It just happens to you and if your not strong in the spirit its easy for demons to over power you.


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## meka (Jun 24, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> I dont give a damn if anyone wants to get on me about what I said. Thats what I believe and I stand by it. Everyone has the right to believe what they want to believe.


 


Iansan said:


> So how does one get possessed by this gay demon?


 

The same way people have a lying, jealous, backbiting spirit or anything else that is not like God.  Christians believe that. It called being delivered from whatever stronghold is in your life. The sprit could have attached itself at any point in your life at your own hands, that of your parents or whomever. That is why we have to stay prayed up


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## Mortons (Jun 24, 2009)

Iansan said:


> So how does one get possessed by this gay demon?



In the womb I'm going to assume since I have been eyeing girls booties since 1st grade. I was straight staring like I was a rapper on the set of a video shoot.


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## Qualitee (Jun 24, 2009)

Mortons said:


> In the womb I'm going to assume since I have been eyeing girls booties since 1st grade. I was straight staring like I was a rapper on the set of a video shoot.


 Demons can attack childen too. In fact they love to attack childen because its so easy.


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## Mortons (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> Demons can attack childen too. In fact they love to attack childen because its so easy.



Well they shole got me good.


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## toinette (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> The same way you can get possessed by any other demon. It just happens to you and if your not strong in the spirit its easy for demons to over power you.



how many kids get possessed by demons? Cause most gay people have known they were gay ever since they were children and 1 in 10 people are gay. So if this gay demon possession happens just like any other then demonic possessions of other natures should be just as prevalent in children as well no?



Mortons said:


> Well they shole got me good.


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

Tyra said:


> Am I ridiculous for being too scared to click the link and watch it?erplexed




Girl you ain't the only one. I'm scared if I watch it the demon might jump out the screen on to me. I ain't trying to have that .


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## Qualitee (Jun 25, 2009)

toinette said:


> how many kids get possessed by demons? Cause most gay people have known they were gay ever since they were children and 1 in 10 people are gay. So if this gay demon possession happens just like any other then demonic possessions of other natures should be just as prevalent in children as well no?


 yes..........


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## Lady S (Jun 25, 2009)

I have a coworker whose parents sent him to one of those "stop being gay" Christian camps.  Prayer, exorcism, abuse that he still hasn't recovered from, all that fun stuff.  He's still gay.  

If you could pray "the gay" out of people, there would be a lot less gay people.  Gay people DO go to church (when they're not ran out) and DO have faith.  It really is inappropriate to judge the strength of someone's spirit because that's between them and God.

Being gay is not due to demonic possession.  Having sex before your married isn't due to demonic possesion either.  Neither is being attracted to guys who have blue eyes.  Seriously, these procedures don't work.  You can change people's actions, but you can't change their preferences. Those "cured" men and women are still gay and probably miserably because their living a charade.

Instead of exorcising grown folks who are attracted to other grown folks, why not exorcise serial killers in jail?  Rapists?  Can we get someone to exorcise the threads in the off topic forums and entertainment forums when things get ugly, because some of the things people say can be _real_ demonic.

I respect everyone's right to their own opinion and I also disagree strongly with some of the opinions on this thread.  But I love y'all anyways.


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## TrustMeLove (Jun 25, 2009)

I haven't watched the video because I don't like randomly seeing stuff like that...

I've seen it in church before. This guy....He had been going to the church longer than me...young man. If you have never seen a human foam at the mouth it is a sight to see.... 

He is a good person..really funny everything..but had a strong strong stronghold in his life.   And it came out of him. Afterwards he was just shouting and crying praising God. 

I know the feeling when you are finally free of something that you been dealing with for a very very very long time. Praying praying praying..crying crying crying and than you are finally free...I would have been doing exactly what he was doing.

ETA: I made a mistake....I believe where the Holy Spirit dwells demons cannot. You can be oppressed, but not possessed. So I guess I can't really say what this guy was..Alll I know something came out of him.


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## LiberianGirl (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> ok? ............ I think its funny. People can still like/befriend someone and not agree with their life style.



I was JOKING, sorry didn't mean to offend you.


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

Lady Speedstick said:


> Instead of exorcising grown folks who are attracted to other grown folks, why not exorcise serial killers in jail?  Rapists?  Can we get someone to exorcise the threads in the off topic forums and entertainment forums when things get ugly, because some of the things people say can be _real_ demonic.



Thank you!

Please add to the list the pedophiles who chill in the pews every sunday. Oh and the deacons with 12 kids and 10 baby mama's.


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## Lady S (Jun 25, 2009)

Mortons said:


> Well they shole got me good.


 


Nice avatar by the way.


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## Qualitee (Jun 25, 2009)

LiberianGirl said:


> I was JOKING, sorry didn't mean to offend you.


 gurl cut it out!  I respect your opinion and everyone elses


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## lady_godiva (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> I think homosexuality is a demon spirit just like any other sin.


 
Where in the Bible does it state that sins are demons?


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## Qualitee (Jun 25, 2009)

lady_godiva said:


> Where in the Bible does it state that sins are demons?


 trust me its in there. Sins are demons.


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## TrustMeLove (Jun 25, 2009)

msa said:


> Thank you!
> 
> Please add to the list the pedophiles who chill in the pews every sunday. Oh and the deacons with 12 kids and 10 baby mama's.



You don't think there are men and women dealing with their attraction to young children? I'm sure there are many praying and hoping to be free on this attraction that they know is wrong.

We had a man like this in our church. It's no joke. We all have our issues some folks are just better at hiding theirs more so than others. 

And folks need the understand the different between wilful sinning, demonic oppression and possession. It's all different. 

Deacons with 12 kids? This man needs prayer and needs to be removed for his position ESPECIALLY if he is creating these kids while being a deacon. In my church folks have been asked to step down and others have stepped down on their own accord if anything like this has happened. They have come before the church asked for forgiveness and prayers. And of course we LOVED on these men and women have fallen short of their own personal values and standards. 

This doesn't necessarily suggest that he is possessed...but he could just be choosing to sin or he could have had some type of incident in his past that has allowed for him to be open to demonic oppression. And yes this man needs prayer.

All believers need prayer and need to pray.


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## toinette (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> trust me its in there. Sins are demons.



so its all demonic possession? none of it is inherent in man?


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## TrustMeLove (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> trust me its in there. Sins are demons.



I would like to see that scripture.


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## Qualitee (Jun 25, 2009)

TrustMeLove said:


> I would like to see that scripture.


 
Its not just one scripture its all over the bible. The bible talked about Jezabel having a sexual demon  etc.


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## Qualitee (Jun 25, 2009)

toinette said:


> so its all demonic possession? none of it is inherent in man?


 It can be influenced by man.


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

TrustMeLove said:


> You don't think there are men and women dealing with their attraction to young children? I'm sure there are many praying and hoping to be free on this attraction that they know is wrong.



I'm sure there are lots of people trying to deal with a lot of sins. My point was, the church needs to be focused on those folks who are doing things that are far worse than being gay.

How many pastor's call out the pedophiles? Or have a sermon about it. Folks are so up in arms about two gay folks gettin' down but they'll let their fathers, uncles, and grandfathers molest/rape the kids in their families for generations.

This whole anti-gay movement disgusts me.


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## SoCalli (Jun 25, 2009)

Sins = demons?  Crazy.  People believe in sins equal demons.  Well, I'll be.  How about one taking responsibility for one's actions instead of blaming it on some unseen entities?


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## Qualitee (Jun 25, 2009)

SoCalli said:


> Sins = demons? Crazy. People believe in sins equal demons. Well, I'll be. How about one taking responsibility for one's actions instead of blaming it on some unseen entities?


 Crazy?........ really? you have you call someone crazy for not agreeing with you?


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## CosmopolitanChic (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> anything is possible with God. Ive seen many people who were gay turn their lives over to God and changed their homosexual ways.


 
I have not read the other posts yet but be prepared for the comments. I hope I am pleasantly surprised.


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## toinette (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> It can be influenced by man.



I'm confused. But thats ok. I'm just gonna drop the whole discussion


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## meka (Jun 25, 2009)

I think we know that all homosexuals go to church but if they feel there is nothing wrong with how they live, why pray to be delivered for it?? The bible explicitly states that its an abomination (adultery as well) so if it's not pleasing to Him then, somebody needs deliverance.


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## TrustMeLove (Jun 25, 2009)

msa said:


> I'm sure there are lots of people trying to deal with a lot of sins. My point was, the church needs to be focused on those folks who are doing things that are far worse than being gay.
> 
> How many pastor's call out the pedophiles? Or have a sermon about it. Folks are so up in arms about two gay folks gettin' down but they'll let their fathers, uncles, and grandfathers molest/rape the kids in their families for generations.
> 
> This whole anti-gay movement disgusts me.



I thank God I attend a church where no one sin is greater than the other. All sexually immoral sin is called out. I've been in church and it was all called out, fornication, adultery, incest, homosexuality, ...that's with pregnant teenagers sitting in the congregation, homosexuals sitting in the congregation, sally and james who been together 10yrs shaking up sitting in the congregation etc....

In all honesty, that was the first sermon I heard that included homosexuality at my church in 5 years. All the other things had been covered many times fornication, adultery, and incest...many times. I was shocked to hear homosexuality covered. We were in church very uncomfortable actually...it was a first.

I'm sad that you have been exposed to churches that dont' cover the whole word of God. I pray those churches are revived and began to fight against all evils and all sins. And don't pick and chose based on political winds or what is popular at the time. I thank God that I have been blessed to be apart of many different ministries that don't take any sin lightly and will happily fight against all things that God says is wrong. And aren't ashamed. 

In my church we are fighting on many fronts. Mainly, helping men to be men that God called them to be..working men godly men...and helping young ladies to value their bodies and walking in their callings.

I'm too disgusted by people who hold one sin more sinful than any other sin. And put all their focus on one thing. Something is wrong with that way of thinking. No sin is greater in God's eyes.  Stealing splenda from 7/11 everytime you buy coffee (pocketing 15 extra packs..I knwo someone who does this and was convicted by God)  will be seen the same in the end as practicing homosexuality..neither is worse than the other.


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## CosmopolitanChic (Jun 25, 2009)

toinette said:


> so its all demonic possession? none of it is inherent in man?


 
NO it is not all demonic possesion, we are man, so we are not perfect and therefore sinful by nature. I understand about the questions regarding the pedos and adulturers and so on. in God 's eyesight though, we are ALL sinful, no big sin and no little sin, and he loves us all regardless. He says our very best days (righteousness)(you know when some of us sit on our high horse and judge others)is like filthy rags before him. TO me that says a lot. God Bless


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## MA2010 (Jun 25, 2009)

TrustMeLove said:


> I thank God I attend a church where no one sin is greater than the other. All sexually immoral sin is called out. I've been in church and it was all called out, fornication, adultery, incest, homosexuality, ...that's with pregnant teenagers sitting in the congregation, homosexuals sitting in the congregation, sally and james who been together 10yrs shaking up sitting in the congregation etc....
> 
> In all honesty, that was the first sermon I heard that included homosexuality at my church in 5 years. All the other things had been covered many times fornication, adultery, and incest...many times. I was shocked to hear homosexuality covered. We were in church very uncomfortable actually...it was a first.
> 
> ...



Loved your entire post TML !!! BIG THANKS!!!!!


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## CosmopolitanChic (Jun 25, 2009)

TrustMeLove said:


> I thank God I attend a church where no one sin is greater than the other. All sexually immoral sin is called out. I've been in church and it was all called out, fornication, adultery, incest, homosexuality, ...that's with pregnant teenagers sitting in the congregation, homosexuals sitting in the congregation, sally and james who been together 10yrs shaking up sitting in the congregation etc....
> 
> In all honesty, that was the first sermon I heard that included homosexuality at my church in 5 years. All the other things had been covered many times fornication, adultery, and incest...many times. I was shocked to hear homosexuality covered. We were in church very uncomfortable actually...it was a first.
> 
> ...


 
A rarity in most churches , you are blessed...Again he loves us all, I cannot walk in your face wagging my finger and saying "You are so wrong, you are going straight to Hell"and I am human, living in a sinful nature but not trying to get it right, and besides I don't know your personal relationship with GOd. 

"Yes he made us in his own image, but we are , singly different and unique.


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## exoticmommie (Jun 25, 2009)

I did not watch the video, all debates aside. If you are not fasted and prayed up you should not be watching said videos because there really _is _a threat that you could end up being attacked. I have heard about this...


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## toinette (Jun 25, 2009)

kickemboots said:


> NO it is not all demonic possesion, we are man, so we are not perfect and therefore sinful by nature. I understand about the questions regarding the pedos and adulturers and so on. in God 's eyesight though, we are ALL sinful, no big sin and no little sin, and he loves us all regardless. He says our very best days (righteousness)(you know when some of us sit on our high horse and judge others)is like filthy rags before him. TO me that says a lot. God Bless





TrustMeLove said:


> I thank God I attend a church where no one sin is greater than the other. All sexually immoral sin is called out. I've been in church and it was all called out, fornication, adultery, incest, homosexuality, ...that's with pregnant teenagers sitting in the congregation, homosexuals sitting in the congregation, sally and james who been together 10yrs shaking up sitting in the congregation etc....
> 
> In all honesty, that was the first sermon I heard that included homosexuality at my church in 5 years. All the other things had been covered many times fornication, adultery, and incest...many times. I was shocked to hear homosexuality covered. We were in church very uncomfortable actually...it was a first.
> 
> ...



thank you for both your posts. My biggest problem when it comes to people using religion to condemn homosexuals is that a lot of times they act like its the biggest singular affront to God. it seems that a lot of people forget exactly what Kickem and TML pointed out - that all sin is equal in measure to God so the sin of homosexuality is no greater than that adultery or the sin of stealing and lying. Yet I dont hear adulterer, theives and liars told that they will burn in hell or have to go to special electroshock therapy and "training" to change their ways. Just to note, i am referring to homosexuality as a sin within the context that the term is used by those who condemn it - it is not my own personal opinion of the matter.


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

TrustMeLove said:


> I'm too disgusted by people who hold one sin more sinful than any other sin. And put all their focus on one thing. Something is wrong with that way of thinking. No sin is greater in God's eyes. Stealing splenda from 7/11 everytime you buy coffee (pocketing 15 extra packs..I knwo someone who does this and was convicted by God) will be seen the same in the end as practicing homosexuality..neither is worse than the other.




Christianity aside, I am human. And I care about other humans. God may not see homosexuality as any different than pedophilia, but I do. I'm just practical like that. I think Christian churches (especially black ones) and groups need to be spending more time and energy and dollars on homelessness, food insecurity, alcohol/drug addiction, mental health issues, health care disparities, pedophilia, STD rates, the increase in high school dropouts and whole host of other issues before they need to be worried about homosexuality. 

Frankly, gay folks are last on my list of things to worry about. I'm too busy thinking about all the evil heterosexuals out there who are raping their kids...or killing folk...or stealing from the welfare system.


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## toinette (Jun 25, 2009)

Manushka said:


> Loved your entire post TML !!! BIG THANKS!!!!!



totally OT but you are so cute  are you Haitian?


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## Qualitee (Jun 25, 2009)

Who said that sins arent all equal? ofcourse they are.


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## BroadstreetBully (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> Who said that sins arent all equal? ofcourse they are.



Well why call out someone elses' sins when you are a sinner yourself? Ah, that's right, Christianity 101--point out everyone elses' sins because you are so perfect yourself.


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## BroadstreetBully (Jun 25, 2009)

msa said:


> Christianity aside, I am human. And I care about other humans. God may not see homosexuality as any different than pedophilia, but I do. I'm just practical like that. I think Christian churches (especially black ones) and groups need to be spending more time and energy and dollars on homelessness, food insecurity, alcohol/drug addiction, mental health issues, health care disparities, pedophilia, STD rates, the increase in high school dropouts and whole host of other issues before they need to be worried about homosexuality.
> 
> Frankly, gay folks are last on my list of things to worry about. I'm too busy thinking about all the evil heterosexuals out there who are raping their kids...or killing folk...or stealing from the welfare system.



Black people are the most 'prayed up' yet have the most problems. That should tell you something.


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## Qualitee (Jun 25, 2009)

BroadstreetBully said:


> Well why call out someone elses' sins when you are a sinner yourself? Ah, that's right, Christianity 101--point out everyone elses' sins because you are so perfect yourself.


 wait did I say I was perfect? NO! I never said I was no one is free of sin. Im talking about sins and demons I never said I was the next mother teresa.


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

BroadstreetBully said:


> Black people are the most 'prayed up' yet have the most problems. That should tell you something.




Yup, it tells me we're in serious denial and have our priorities all fcuked up.


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## SUPER SWEET (Jun 25, 2009)

Im too scared to watch(yikes).I just pasted the link to a friend, she'll watch it and tell me details


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## MA2010 (Jun 25, 2009)

toinette said:


> totally OT but you are so cute  are you Haitian?



I am and thank you girl! Are you?


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## diva24 (Jun 25, 2009)

If that's what he choses to do, then that is what he choses to do. Everyone has a right to believe what they choose to believe. As adults I think we should respect everyones opinion without calling them crazy. It's his right to have an exorcism. He did not look restrained to me. He was an active participant. It should be obvious that he is not happy with his sexuality and is seeking to change it. That is his life. Call it what you want, sin, demon, possessed. He is unhappy ad is seeking out ways (conventional or not) to change his life.


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## toinette (Jun 25, 2009)

Manushka said:


> I am and thank you girl! Are you?



yeah I am. It was the "Manushka" that tipped me off


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## BroadstreetBully (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> wait did I say I was perfect? NO! I never said I was no one is free of sin. Im talking about sins and demons I never said I was the next mother teresa.



You don't have to say it, that's how your type thinks. What was the point of posting this video anyway? You've grouped all homosexuals into one category (demon possessed), and apparently approve of this barbaric practice. Funny how you all claim to see all sins equally, but only focus on SOME. The Bible has outlined so many things as sins, but the general Christina population sweeps most under a rug and picks on certain groups, especially homosexuals. Furthermore you have no problem seeing humor in effeminate men while casting stones at them. How Christ-like.


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## lady_godiva (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> trust me its in there. Sins are demons.


 
So on judgment day, we just tell God to blame it on the demons?  If it is there, please share.


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## MA2010 (Jun 25, 2009)

ms.sweetevie said:


> Im too scared to watch(yikes).I just pasted the link to a friend, she'll watch it and tell me details



I wont watch either.  

I tried and the link did not work at first. Not trying again. Nope.


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## lady_godiva (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> It can be influenced by man.


 
If sins are demons then this negates Christ's salvation.  The Bible says that Christ died for our sins, not for our demons.  If that is the case I need an exorcism too.  I am a sinner saved by grace.  

All the devil does is tempt us to sin.  He even tried to tempt Jesus.  There is no reference to demons making people sin in the Bible.  When I sin it is by choice.  Choices that I believe that I will have to answer to one day.

There are sins of fornication, lying, adultery, not honoring parents, mistreating other, starting mess ( sowing seeds of discord)...too many to name that need to be "exorcised" out of folks.  If exorcism is the way to "get people right" then the Church has been doing it wrong all along.  There was no need for me to be saved if I can just cast out a demon.  Please.


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

BroadstreetBully said:


> The Bible has outlined so many things as sins, but* the general Christina population sweeps most under a rug and picks on certain groups*, especially homosexuals.



So so true.

Sins that bother/affect me more than homosexuality:
1. Murder
2. Rape
3. Pedophilia
4. Stealing/lying/cheating
5. Gossip
6. Gluttony (and by extension, obesity)
7. Greed (financial crisis anyone?)
8. Selfishness (look at all the poor folk with no homes, money, food, or health care)
9. Hate
10. etc. etc. etc.


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## lady_godiva (Jun 25, 2009)

BroadstreetBully said:


> You don't have to say it, that's how your type thinks. What was the point of posting this video anyway? You've grouped all homosexuals into one category (demon possessed), and apparently approve of this barbaric practice. Funny how you all claim to see all sins equally, but only focus on SOME. *The Bible has outlined so many things as sins, but the general Christina population sweeps most under a rug and picks on certain groups, especially homosexuals.* Furthermore you have no problem seeing humor in effeminate men while casting stones at them. How Christ-like.


 

Not paying tithes is the other BIG SIN.  Yes, I know I will probably get attacked on this one...


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## MuseofTroy (Jun 25, 2009)

Christians like anyone else can have demons. These demons are spirits that influence bad/sinful behavior. Sadly delieverance has been taken out of the church so most people have been tricked into believing that people, especially Christians can't have demons anymore. However it is noted through out the bible about demons possessing people


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## Qualitee (Jun 25, 2009)

BroadstreetBully said:


> You don't have to say it, that's how your type thinks. What was the point of posting this video anyway? You've grouped all homosexuals into one category (demon possessed), and apparently approve of this barbaric practice. Funny how you all claim to see all sins equally, but only focus on SOME. The Bible has outlined so many things as sins, but the general Christina population sweeps most under a rug and picks on certain groups, especially homosexuals. Furthermore you have no problem seeing humor in effeminate men while casting stones at them. How Christ-like.


I dont care how its typed.All because I think a something is wrong doesnt mean I saying Im holy holy. Funny how you are calling me out for judging people. arent you judging me? So you are just as "wrong"
 Why did I post the video?..........because I wanted to. I have to have a valid reason to post videos I do think that most gay people are demon possesed. Thats my belief and  I believe it is right. What are you talking about forcusing on some? Were talking about homosexuality in this thread, not all sins. the main topic homosexuality. If I posted a video about baking cookies are you going to get mad because were not talking about cakes too?Like I said before all because you dont believe in someones life style doesnt mean you cant like or befriend them.


----------



## MA2010 (Jun 25, 2009)

lady_godiva said:


> Not paying tithes is the other BIG SIN.  Yes, I know I will probably get attacked on this one...



Why would you get attacked? Just curious .


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## MuseofTroy (Jun 25, 2009)

SoCalli said:


> Sins = demons? Crazy. People believe in sins equal demons. Well, I'll be. How about one taking responsibility for one's actions instead of blaming it on some unseen entities?


 
God gave us all free will. A person can choose to follow the demonic influences or choose to seek God's way in approaching life. Everyone has their own personal "demons" they struggle with. The what distinguishes each person is how they deal with their personal struggles.


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## lady_godiva (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> *I dont give a damn if anyone wants to get on me about what I said. Thats what I believe and I stand by it.* Everyone has the right to believe what they want to believe.


 
Isn't using profanity a sin?  Does that mean that you have a cursing demon inside of you that needs to be cast out.  You are right, people do have a right to believe what they want to believe, but when you are referring to Christianity - my religion - please back it up by Bible verses.

There are no many things that are unscriptural (word?) in that video that it is appaling.  None of what went on in that video is based on scripture.


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## diva24 (Jun 25, 2009)

BroadstreetBully said:


> You don't have to say it, that's how your type thinks. What was the point of posting this video anyway? You've grouped all homosexuals into one category (demon possessed), and apparently approve of this barbaric practice. Funny how you all claim to see all sins equally, but only focus on SOME. The Bible has outlined so many things as sins, but the general Christina population sweeps most under a rug and picks on certain groups, especially homosexuals. Furthermore you have no problem seeing humor in effeminate men while casting stones at them. How Christ-like.


You seem really angry. Is this personal for you? Did someone try to perform an exorcism on you? The man in question believes in this type of "barbaric practice" and some people would call it religious. If it is okay for him and Qualitee backs this way of thinking then why are you so angry? Everyone will nto agree with your lifestyle, gay or not. And that is okay. Your post just seems really angry. Even though she thinks it is bad does not mean she can't think its funny. Ellen is a gay comedienne. I think she is funny despite what I think about her private life.


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## Qualitee (Jun 25, 2009)

lady_godiva said:


> So on judgment day, we just tell God to blame it on the demons?  If it is there, please share.


 No you only blame yourself. Yall acting like the devil doesnt tempt you? He tried to bring Jesus to the darkness so what makes you think he wont do that to you?


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

lady_godiva said:


> There are so many things that are unscriptural (word?) in that video that it is appaling.  None of what went on in that video is based on scripture.




Why am I not surprised?


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## lady_godiva (Jun 25, 2009)

Manushka said:


> Why would you get attacked? Just curious .


 
Because most people swear by this teaching because in my opinion most pastors will spend time on this topic and negate others.  Most people can tell you all about paying tithes, but they don't know about other sins that the pastor does not talk about.  For instance, and it is too long for me to go into details about how I came about this, but my students did not know that fornication was a sin, but that not paying tithes was; they all went to different churches.


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## Qualitee (Jun 25, 2009)

lady_godiva said:


> Isn't using profanity a sin? Does that mean that you have a cursing demon inside of you that needs to be cast out. You are right, people do have a right to believe what they want to believe, but when you are referring to Christianity - my religion - please back it up by Bible verses.
> 
> There are no many things that are unscriptural (word?) in that video that it is appaling. None of what went on in that video is based on scripture.


But yet yall in here trying yo say Im saying I perfect when obviously Im not We all have our own demons................
Chritianity is your religion? really? It seems like you done forgot everything you got taught.


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## lady_godiva (Jun 25, 2009)

MuseofTroy said:


> Christians like anyone else can have demons. These demons are spirits that influence bad/sinful behavior. Sadly delieverance has been taken out of the church so most people have been tricked into believing that people, especially Christians can't have demons anymore. However it is noted through out the bible about demons possessing people


 
Okay, then give me scriptures so that I will know.  That is all that I am asking.


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## diva24 (Jun 25, 2009)

I am exiting this thread. It has taken a nasty turn and I think people are going to use this thread to go at each other rather than have a real conversation about exorcism or homosexuality. This is more about who is right and who is wrong rather than about seeing other people's point of view. I am slowly but surely starting to see that there are more "debaters" on this forum than there are people who are capable of having intelligent conversation.


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## lady_godiva (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> But yet yall in here trying yo say Im saying I perfect when obviously Im not We all have our own demons................
> Chritianity is your religion? really? It seems like you done forgot everything you got taught.


 
I have been taught in a Bible based church which is why I WANT YOU TO GIVE ME scriptural references.  If you can do that then I have no argument, because to me the Bible is the last word, not some preacher or church practices.  Sorry.


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## BroadstreetBully (Jun 25, 2009)

msa said:


> So so true.
> 
> Sins that bother/affect me more than homosexuality:
> 1. Murder
> ...



And yet I saw how many overweight people observing this exorcism? I bet they will all go out to eat after this. Why don't most Churches tackle this issue? It's something that's killing us off one by one. 

I have no problem with the church providing some guidance for homosexuals who are not happy with their 'lifestyle', but an exorcism? Really? I can't even say that this man fully 'consented' because of how society treats homosexuality. If homosexuals were treated as equally as all these other sinners (so 100% of the world's population)--many wouldn't feel the need to go to such extremes. Now if they were treated equally and STILL unhappy with their 'lifestyles', they would be going into this whole thing with a clear mind instead of feeling forced because of pressure and the humiliation they face from those who judge them. Trying to change sexual orientation is no easy task, and it takes supportive people around you who love you no matter what. That is never the case for these men (and women).


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## MuseofTroy (Jun 25, 2009)

No one is denying that the church is flawed and very corrupted nowadays, especially the Black church where people aren’t getting healed but duped into false prophecies and money ministries. Jesus didn't intend Christianity to be a religion. Your relationship with Jesus is personal. For the life of me I don't understand why most Christians don't do their own research on the bible instead of depending on someone else. Some pastors/ministers know their stuff and are really good. However if you are attending a church or getting information from bad sources then it is your responsibility to seek out the truth. I have not heard anyone in this thread say homosexuality is the worst sin of all. However it is a sin like any other and if an individual is struggling in that area, they should be helped. The majority of the time I stay out of these threads because the level of ignorance regarding God and the bible is really disturbing. It's like some people are stuck on stupid and pick a fight when it comes to scripture they don’t' like. Do your homework people before you start refuting information.


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## username12 (Jun 25, 2009)

diva24 said:


> If that's what he choses to do, then that is what he choses to do. Everyone has a right to believe what they choose to believe. As adults I think we should respect everyones opinion without calling them crazy. It's his right to have an exorcism. He did not look restrained to me. He was an active participant. It should be obvious that he is not happy with his sexuality and is seeking to change it. That is his life. Call it what you want, sin, demon, possessed. He is unhappy ad is seeking out ways (conventional or not) to change his life.


 
So well said.  

These are one of the topics where people hold strong, unwavering opinions and are going to differ greatly.  Nothing ever good comes from these threads.  

Unfortunately, religion has been pimped out by money hungry false prophets and politicians.  Bush used homosexuality to divert our attention from the war in Iraq.  However the manipulation of religion has not changed God's teachings.  This doesn't change Jesus' beautiful message about loving one another.  I can understand both sides, I'm a Christian and although I don't agree with homosexuality, there are more probing issues in our community that needs our immediate attention.  

All of us are sinners in the eyes of God.  We have all messed up, no sin is worse than the other.  Saying this with love, let's just keep it moving


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## MA2010 (Jun 25, 2009)

BroadstreetBully said:


> And yet I saw how many overweight people observing this exorcism? I bet they will all go out to eat after this.



I am so sorry because I know how serious this issue can get but this post made me laugh hard!!!! LOL.

I mean, everybody has to eat....dang!!! 

Ummmm, my side is hurting now.


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

diva24 said:


> I am exiting this thread. It has taken a nasty turn and I think people are going to use this thread to go at each other rather than have a real conversation about exorcism or homosexuality. This is more about who is right and who is wrong rather than about seeing other people's point of view. I am slowly but surely starting to see that there are more "debaters" on this forum *than there are people who are capable of having intelligent conversation.*




Funny how you just contributed to the thread taking a "nasty turn" and it being used for people to "go at each other".


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## MuseofTroy (Jun 25, 2009)

lady_godiva said:


> Okay, then give me scriptures so that I will know. That is all that I am asking.


 
How about you google it or go to various online biblical resources. When I was a kid and I wanted to know how to spell a word, my parents expected me to try and look it up in the dictionary by utilizing my phonics. If I wasn't successful after trying myself then they will guide me in the direction for my answer. Therefore if you want information about a scripture why don’t you look it up and confirm if yourself?


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## Qualitee (Jun 25, 2009)

lady_godiva said:


> I have been taught in a Bible based church which is why I WANT YOU TO GIVE ME scriptural references. If you can do that then I have no argument, because to me the Bible is the last word, not some preacher or church practices. Sorry.


 *Matthew 4:24: *"_...they brought unto him [Jesus] all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy..._"

*Matthew 10:1*: "_And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease._"


*Luke 9:38-42*: "_...a man of the company cried out, saying, Master, I beseech thee, look upon my son: for he is mine only child. And, lo, a spirit taketh him, and he suddenly crieth out; and it teareth him that he foameth again, and bruising him hardly departeth from him....And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit..._"

So are you trying to say the there arent any demon spirits, that can make you sin?


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## lady_godiva (Jun 25, 2009)

diva24 said:


> I am exiting this thread. It has taken a nasty turn and I think people are going to use this thread to go at each other rather than have a real conversation about exorcism or homosexuality. This is more about who is right and who is wrong rather than about seeing other people's point of view. I am slowly but surely starting to see that there are more "debaters" on this forum than there are people who are capable of having intelligent conversation.


 
I hope that I am not coming off as being antagonistic.  It is just that I love my religion and I hate when people distort it.  This is what turns people away from Christianity.  Jesus Christ loved EVERYONE gays and straights, murderers, rapists, adulturers, and all other types of sinners.  He died for ALL OF OUR SINS.  No one was without sin, but Christ.  

As Christians, we are supposed to show love and compassion while leading people to Christ.  We should be able to tell people how we are saved through Christ and how we too were yet sinners on our way to hell.  Being saved does not mean that a person does not stop sinning, it just means that they should be moving away from sin and being renewed to be more like Christ because of HIS spirit that is in us.

Scriptural references:  John 1:12, John 3: 16 -17, Romans 3:23, Eph. 1: 13 -14.


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

MuseofTroy said:


> I have not heard anyone in this thread say homosexuality is the worst sin of all. However it is a sin like any other and if an individual is struggling in that area, they should be helped.



I have alluded to the fact that I think Christians treat homosexuality as if it is "the worst sin of all". I think people know your heart and what's important to you by looking at where you put your time and money. Obviously, homosexuality is important to Christians because they have no problem putting their time and money toward fighting.

My point was that they need to be fighting some other sins which are much more important in my view.


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> So are you trying to say the there arent any demon spirits, that can make you sin?




I don't think anyone was saying that. They were just pointing out that *all* sins are not the result of demon possession.


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## toinette (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> *Matthew 4:24: *"_...they brought unto him [Jesus] all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy..._"
> 
> *Matthew 10:1*: "_And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease._"
> 
> ...



no one said that, just that some of us dont think that demonic possession is behind all sin 

unless I'm missing something these passages speak about spirits in general and only in one do they talk about the actual outcome of that possesson and that is the last one which talks about the spirit making him foam at the mouth. I dont see anything about these spirits causing people to sin


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## BroadstreetBully (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> I dont care how its typed.All because I think a something is wrong doesnt mean I saying Im holy holy. Funny how you are calling me out for judging people. arent you judging me? So you are just as "wrong"
> Why did I post the video?..........because I wanted to. I have to have a valid reason to post videos I do think that most gay people are demon possesed. Thats my belief and  I believe it is right. What are you talking about forcusing on some? Were talking about homosexuality in this thread, not all sins. the main topic homosexuality. If I posted a video about baking cookies are you going to get mad because were not talking about cakes too?Like I said before all because you dont believe in someones life style doesnt mean you cant like or befriend them.



You could have posted this in the Christianity forum no? That would have been the proper place for this, NOT the ENT forum. THAT is why I asked.



diva24 said:


> *You seem really angry. Is this personal for you? Did someone try to perform an exorcism on you?* The man in question believes in this type of "barbaric practice" and some people would call it religious. If it is okay for him and Qualitee backs this way of thinking then why are you so angry? Everyone will nto agree with your lifestyle, gay or not. And that is okay. Your post just seems really angry. Even though she thinks it is bad does not mean she can't think its funny. Ellen is a gay comedienne. I think she is funny despite what I think about her private life.



Someone posts something in the ENT forum and then brings up something about gays and demons. It doesn't have to be 'personal' for someone to be upset about it. Christians have their own place on the board to talk about just this topic.

What she finds funny about this guy is his sexual orientation. You find a comedian funny, someone who makes jokes that may or may not be about her sexual orientation.


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## lady_godiva (Jun 25, 2009)

—Ephesians 1:13-14


*Ephesians 2:8-9*

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

For the *grace of God* has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

—Titus 2:11-14 

To the OP:  I apologize if I came off atagonistic, but I have two references from the Bible that do not reference anything about sins being removed because of exorcism.  It was God's love for us by sending His Son to die for us because that law of the old testament was not good enough.  In other words, we were all destined to sin because we are all born into sin because of the sins of Adam.  

None of us can judge anyone else, but we just have to understand that we must love everybody because that's what Christ did and we have to be like Him.  Let's pray for each other because everyday we all fall short of the glory of God...at least I know that I do.


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## MA2010 (Jun 25, 2009)

msa said:


> I have alluded to the fact that I think Christians treat homosexuality as if it is "the worst sin of all". *I think people know your heart and what's important to you by looking at where you put your time and money. Obviously, homosexuality is important to Christians because they have no problem putting their time and money toward fighting.
> *
> My point was that they need to be fighting some other sins which are much more important in my view.



How are Christians putting their time and money towards fighting homosexuality? Very curious........


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## MuseofTroy (Jun 25, 2009)

toinette said:


> no one said that, just that some of us dont think that demonic possession is behind all sin
> 
> unless I'm missing something these passages speak about spirits in general and only in one do they talk about the actual outcome of that possesson and that is the last one which talks about the spirit making him foam at the mouth. I dont see anything about these spirits causing people to sin


 
Jesus in Matthew 15:26 calls deliverance from evil spirits “the *children’s bread*”. It also infers that children of God can have evil spirits as well. (Matthew 12:43- 45) also goes into detail of what happens if you don’t repent from your sins.

Jesus taught his disciples to pray in the Lord’s prayer, literally, “Deliver *us* from *the evil one*”. Peter was used as a mouthpiece for Satan one time (Matthew 16:22,23). This is still happening today with God’s people. So just because we are saved doesn’t mean why are 100% FREED from demons. If we were, we would all be like Jesus.

Jesus said, “You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” (John 8:32). It is time for all believers everywhere to know the truth and through the truth get free of the indwelling power of sin in their lives. So we see that disciples must pray for deliverance, must cast out demons. (Mark 16:18) talks about how disciples prayed out demons that were attacking God’s children.  

So any sin that is difficult to stop is likely due to the individual having demonic influence in that area whether it's lust, pride, envy, etc...


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## BroadstreetBully (Jun 25, 2009)

diva24 said:


> I am exiting this thread. It has taken a nasty turn and I think people are going to use this thread to go at each other rather than have a real conversation about exorcism or homosexuality. This is more about who is right and who is wrong rather than about seeing other people's point of view.* I am slowly but surely starting to see that there are more "debaters" on this forum than there are people who are capable of having intelligent conversation.*



If you want to have an intelligent conversation on Christianity, gays, and demons, you have an area to do that. Post something about demons and gays in ENT and expect a backlash.


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## lady_godiva (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> *Matthew 4:24: *"_...they brought unto him [Jesus] all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy..._"
> 
> *Matthew 10:1*: "_And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease._"
> 
> ...


'

Thank you, but these Bible verses do not refer to sin.  They refer to sicknesses and mental illnesses.


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## lady_godiva (Jun 25, 2009)

MuseofTroy said:


> How about you google it or go to various online biblical resources. When I was a kid and I wanted to know how to spell a word, my parents expected me to try and look it up in the dictionary by utilizing my phonics. If I wasn't successful after trying myself then they will guide me in the direction for my answer. Therefore if you want information about a scripture why don’t you look it up and confirm if yourself?


 
I want the person who is giving the information to provide the scriptures.  That is all that I am asking.


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## MuseofTroy (Jun 25, 2009)

lady_godiva said:


> I want the person who is giving the information to provide the scriptures. That is all that I am asking.


 
Why? You are the one in doubt so why not confirm the information yourself? Why depend on someone else to provide knowledge to you? BTW I think there have been a few scriptures in this thread provided. That can be your starting point.


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## Qualitee (Jun 25, 2009)

BroadstreetBully said:


> You could have posted this in the Christianity forum no? That would have been the proper place for this, NOT the ENT forum. THAT is why I asked.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


  If the mods feel that this thread needs to be in the Christain forum I sure they will move it.


lady_godiva said:


> —Ephesians 1:13-14
> 
> 
> *Ephesians 2:8-9*
> ...


thank you for saying this. I can understand why you would be confused but some words that we use today may have not been used back then. Like excorism. When I read the bible I go online to biblegateway.com and I read the bible in our modern english. It helped me understand the bible better. and If I offened you Im sorry too. Im just passionate about my religion.


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## Qualitee (Jun 25, 2009)

lady_godiva said:


> '
> 
> Thank you, but these Bible verses do not refer to sin. They refer to sicknesses and mental illnesses.


 From what I was taught homosexuality and other sins were considered to be a mental illness then.


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## Mortons (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> From what I was taught homosexuality and other sins were considered to be a mental illness then.



During biblical times? I don't think that's correct.


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## MuseofTroy (Jun 25, 2009)

lady_godiva said:


> '
> 
> Thank you, but these Bible verses do not refer to sin. They refer to sicknesses and mental illnesses.


 

Where do you think sickness and mental illness comes from? Do you think God created man to suffer that way?Or perhaps Satan wants to destroy God's creation by any means necessary? I encourage everyone to look deeper within the scriptures beyond just a simple elementary understanding. God doesn't make garbage or create defects in people. That's Satan's job.


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

Manushka said:


> How are Christians putting their time and money towards fighting homosexuality? Very curious........




Lots of ways.

A common, simple one, is using preaching countless sermons against homosexuality.

Others include starting websites, posting youtube videos, creating business to exorcise demons, collecting millions of dollars to make sure gay marriage can't happen, writing books, wasting school boards time trying to convince them to change their curriculum on tolerance in the classroom, and many other things.

But I don't see the same attention and money given to caring for the poor, widowed, and orphaned. I don't see Christians up in arms and disgusted by folks shacking up. There are very few Christian organizations out there lobbying for the government to protect children from sexual, mental, and physical abuse. 

Like I said, Christians' priorities are skewed. I guess they realize if they start focusing on all that other stuff they'll have to take a good look at themselves.

I hate to say I'm Christian because I don't want to be lumped in with the hateful, hypocritical, irrational folks who also call themselves Christians.


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

MuseofTroy said:


> Where do you think sickness and mental illness comes from? Do you think God created man to suffer that way?Or perhaps Satan wants to destroy God's creation by any means necessary? I encourage everyone to look deeper within the scriptures beyond just a simple elementary understanding. God doesn't make garbage or create defects in people. That's Satan's job.




Well He created Satan soooo....


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## Qualitee (Jun 25, 2009)

Mortons said:


> During biblical times? I don't think that's correct.


 ok thats what you believe. but I was taught differently.


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## username12 (Jun 25, 2009)

MuseofTroy said:


> Where do you think sickness and mental illness comes from? Do you think God created man to suffer that way?Or perhaps Satan wants to destroy God's creation by any means necessary? I encourage everyone to look deeper within the scriptures beyond just a simple elementary understanding. God doesn't make garbage or create defects in people. That's Satan's job.


 
ITA!  It isn't about mental illness in today's medical context, but moreso mental illness refers the thought process that causes one to sin.

Lemme go to bed, it's super late.


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## Qualitee (Jun 25, 2009)

msa said:


> Well He created Satan soooo....


 The Bible says that God uses Satan primarily to punish and to chasten people, *and to test the faith of his followers.*


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## MuseofTroy (Jun 25, 2009)

msa said:


> Lots of ways.
> 
> A common, simple one, is using preaching countless sermons against homosexuality.
> 
> ...


 
I understand where you are coming from. This type of narrow approach to addressing only some sins is a major turn off. My criticism of the Black church is that many pastors don't address issues such as poverty, single parent households, ignorance, promiscuous behavior, and criminal behavior in the community. However I'm not ashamed that I'm a Christian. The fruits of my walk with God can be seen in my life. I can't complain. I live very well and that has to do with God's grace and making good life choices. I think if the church really wants to have a meaningful impact on the world, stop with the hypocrisy and address all the areas that people are struggling in, not just homosexuality.


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## lady_godiva (Jun 25, 2009)

You also have to take into account the etymology of the words of the Bible.

This following is a quote:  
*Etymological Considerations*

*View no.1* understands the Greek verb _daimonizomai_ to be translated “*demonized*” rather than “demon possessed” because (1) possession implies ownership and Satan does not own anything; (2) the verb is passive and pictures a demon controlling a passive person; and (3) the verb’s root means a “demon-caused passivity.”1
*View no. 2* understands the verb to mean “demon possessed” because (1) the Greek lexicons and theological dictionaries all translate _daimonizomai _as “to be possessed by a demon”;2 and (2) one of the English dictionary definitions for _possess _is “to gain or exert influence or control over; dominate” (_American Heritage Dictionary__, 3d_ ed.). Thus, demon possession can be understood as “possession to control.” W. E. Vine translates the verb this way: “To be possessed of a demon, to act under the control of a demon.”3


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## lady_godiva (Jun 25, 2009)

MuseofTroy said:


> I understand where you are coming from. This type of narrow approach to addressing only some sins is a major turn off. My criticism of the Black church is that many pastors don't address issues such as poverty, single parent households, ignorance, promiscuous behavior, and criminal behavior in the community. However I'm not ashamed that I'm a Christian. The fruits of my walk with God can be seen in my life. I can't complain. I live very well and that has to do with God's grace and making good life choices. I think if the church really wants to have a meaningful impact on the world, stop with the hypocrisy and address all the areas that people are struggling in, not just homosexuality.


 
Exactly.  That is a problem that I have too.  I bet you know EVERYTHING about tithes though.


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## Mortons (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> ok thats what you believe. but I was taught differently.



Just curious...Were you taught by a history professor or a professor of psychology? Or were you taught by a preacher?


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## BroadstreetBully (Jun 25, 2009)

See this is why this topic is best discussed at the Christianity forum. All of this could have been avoided if posted in its proper place.


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## MuseofTroy (Jun 25, 2009)

msa said:


> Well He created Satan soooo....


 
Your point? If you want to have a discussion with me about this then you need to do a little better and approach me with factual and intellectually sound comments. I don't joke around when it comes to discussions like this. Someone might be reading this thread and our responses can have a positive or negative impact on their view of God so lets be serious ok?


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## Qualitee (Jun 25, 2009)

Mortons said:


> Just curious...Were you taught by a history professor or a professor of psychology? Or were you taught by a preacher?


 I was taught by a wonder preacher mother grandmother. My question to you is do you think homosexulity is a sin?


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> The Bible says that God uses Satan primarily to punish and to chasten people, and to test the faith of his followers.




Well if God created everything, including Satan, and Satan created mental illness, demons, and all other kinds of punishments, then I'd say God had a large hand in that. Seems like God just didn't want to do the dirty work. 

Sounds like some Christians I know..."I don't hate you, I just hate the sin...it's not me who wants to take away your rights or persecute you, God told me to".

And another thing, I think homosexuality is more of a stumbling block for Christians than it is for homosexuals. I think God is testing Christians right now....He's going to have  a lot to say about some peoples lack of compassion, love, and ability to prioritize.


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## Mortons (Jun 25, 2009)

BroadstreetBully said:


> See this is why this topic is best discussed at the Christianity forum. All of this could have been avoided if posted in its proper place.



Yes, it really should be moved if this is the conversation to be had. Unlike Christianity there aren't many places on this board where "alternative lifestyles" can have some peace. Why infiltrate one of the few places where it can be discussed without all of this?


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## Mortons (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> I was taught by a wonder preacher mother grandmother. My question to you is do you think homosexulity is a sin?



What bearing does that have on the conversation, again just curious? My short answer though, is no.


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## lady_godiva (Jun 25, 2009)

This is a good article on this discussion.  Here is the link for the entire article:  http://www.equip.org/articles/can-a-christian-be-demonized-

*The teaching that Christians can be demonized turns our attention from God to Satan.* It can inspire fear in the believer where he or she should experience confidence in Christ As noted, it often makes believers dependent on those with deliv*erance ministries to protect them from demons. *It fosters a spiritualistic superstition that distracts the believer from both proclaiming the gospel and from person*al growth in sanctification.*

Perhaps the greatest danger lies in its methodology in determining truth. For, as we saw above,* those who teach that a Christian can be inhabited by a demon place their experience above the teaching of Scripture and deny the sufficiency of Scripture in the process. Once the church allows subjective experience to replace the objective test of Scripture on one issue, a precedent will be set for future issues. A theological Pandora’s box will have been opened, leading to an epidemic of superstition and doctri*nal deterioration.*

We have seen, however, that Scripture never teaches that a Christian can be inhabited by a demon. Nor does it teach that there is any spiritual problem for which a Christian should undergo an exorcism. Therefore, we can confidently rest in the victory Christ has won over the demonic forces and we can trust God’s resources in our battle against the world, the flesh, and the Devil. May God deliver us from this specious and divisive teaching, and may we use our spiritual resources in Christ and retain the sound teaching of our evangelical heritage.


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## Qualitee (Jun 25, 2009)

Mortons said:


> Yes, it really should be moved if this is the conversation to be had. Unlike Christianity there aren't many places on this board where "alternative lifestyles" can have some peace. Why infiltrate one of the few places where it can be discussed without all of this?


 


BroadstreetBully said:


> See this is why this topic is best discussed at the Christianity forum. All of this could have been avoided if posted in its proper place.


 If this thread being in the ENT forum is bothering you guys sssssooo much why keep on talking about it? Write a mod and ask for it to be moved.Plain and simple.


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## username12 (Jun 25, 2009)

msa said:


> Well if God created everything, including Satan, and Satan created mental illness, demons, and all other kinds of punishments, then I'd say God had a large hand in that. Seems like God just didn't want to do the dirty work.
> 
> Sounds like some Christians I know..."I don't hate you, I just hate the sin...it's not me who wants to take away your rights or persecute you, God told me to".
> 
> And another thing, I think homosexuality is more of a stumbling block for Christians than it is for homosexuals. I think God is testing Christians right now....He's going to have a lot to say about some peoples lack of compassion, love, and ability to prioritize.


 
Satan wasn't Satan when God created him.  Satan was an angel over music, who had free will, and decided to go against God.  We all have free will, just like Satan did.  

I do agree that this thread should be moved to the Christian section just for the mere fact that the daytime folks will act a donkey.  Everything is pretty much cool now, but once daybreak comes, this will be a mess.


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

MuseofTroy said:


> Where do you think sickness and mental illness comes from? Do you think God created man to suffer that way?Or perhaps Satan wants to destroy God's creation by any means necessary? I encourage everyone to look deeper within the scriptures beyond just a simple elementary understanding. God doesn't make garbage or create defects in people. That's Satan's job.





msa said:


> Well He created Satan soooo....





MuseofTroy said:


> Your point? If you want to have a discussion with me about this then you need to do a little better and approach me with factual and intellectually sound comments. I don't joke around when it comes to discussions like this. Someone might be reading this thread and our responses can have a positive or negative impact on their view of God so lets be serious ok?



My bad, let me finish my thought.

"God doesn't make garbage or create defects in people. That's Satan's job."

God created Satan. Satan created strife ("garbage", "defects", mental illness, demon possession, etc. etc.).

Well He created Satan sooo.....He created (or had some hand in creating) strife.


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## lady_godiva (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> From what I was taught homosexuality and other sins were considered to be a mental illness then.


 
The scriptures to which you referred do not reference sin.


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## Qualitee (Jun 25, 2009)

Mortons said:


> What bearing does that have on the conversation, again just curious? My short answer though, is no.


 arent we talking about homosexuality? Arent we talking about homosexuality being a sin, demons and such?.............


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

S4LH said:


> Satan wasn't Satan when God created him.  Satan was an angel over music, who had free will, and decided to go against God.  We all have free will, just like Satan did.




Well God created everything, including free will, Satan, and gay sex. God is quite interesting ain't He?


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## MuseofTroy (Jun 25, 2009)

msa said:


> Well if God created everything, including Satan, and Satan created mental illness, demons, and all other kinds of punishments, then I'd say God had a large hand in that. Seems like God just didn't want to do the dirty work.
> 
> Sounds like some Christians I know..."I don't hate you, I just hate the sin...it's not me who wants to take away your rights or persecute you, God told me to".
> 
> And another thing, I think homosexuality is more of a stumbling block for Christians than it is for homosexuals. I think God is testing Christians right now....He's going to have a lot to say about some peoples lack of compassion, love, and ability to prioritize.


 
Msa, Christians aren't perfect. At the end of the day we are all flesh and the flesh is corrupted. It's VERY difficult for a human being to separate the person from the sin. For example of some man brutally rapes you, it would be very difficult for you to separate that individual from the sinner. He will be Joe the rapist, not Joe the man who happened to have raped me. According to God's word that is what we are supposed to do. The truth is we all have our struggles in different areas. Personally I don't want to be around people who embrace toxic behavior and make no effort to improve their lives. As I stated earlier, God created man with free will. We can choose to give into the sin or fight against it.


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## Qualitee (Jun 25, 2009)

lady_godiva said:


> The scriptures to which you referred do not reference sin.


 yes it does..............


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## Mortons (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> arent we talking about homosexuality? Arent we talking about homosexuality being a sin, demons and such?.............



Yes we are. what I am asking is what does my answer now change or provoke in the conversation. Basically, are you going somewhere with this. Sorry I wasn't clear.


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## Qualitee (Jun 25, 2009)

msa said:


> Well God created everything, including free will, Satan, and gay sex. God is quite interesting ain't He?


 God created sin and temptation to differentiate the true believers from the non believers.


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## toinette (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> yes it does..............



where? cause so far three of us made the same comment about not seeing the reference to sin so we must all be missing something. Can you please point it out?


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

MuseofTroy said:


> Msa, Christians aren't perfect. At the end of the day we are all flesh and the flesh is corrupted. It's VERY difficult for a human being to separate the person from the sin. For example of some man brutally rapes you, it would be very difficult for you to separate that individual from the sinner. He will be Joe the rapist, not Joe the man who happened to have raped me. According to God's word that is what we are supposed to do. The truth is we all have our struggles in different areas. Personally I don't want to be around people who embrace toxic behavior and make no effort to improve their lives. As I stated earlier, God created man with free will. We can choose to give into the sin or fight against it.




Nope Christians aren't perfect. Seems like they conveniently forget that as soon as homosexuality comes up though. Yes, we all have struggles in different areas. But looking at Christianity today, you wouldn't know that. You'd think homosexuality is the foundation for all that is wrong with the world right now, not greed, selfishness, or lack of love.


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> God created sin and temptation to differentiate the true believers from the non believers.



Well wasn't that nice of Him. Don't you just hate when your parents set you up for failure?


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## BroadstreetBully (Jun 25, 2009)

Mortons said:


> Yes, it really should be moved if this is the conversation to be had. Unlike Christianity there aren't many places on this board where "alternative lifestyles" can have some peace. Why infiltrate one of the few places where it can be discussed without all of this?



I mean seriously, it's ENT...liberal alley!



Qualitee said:


> If this thread being in the ENT forum is bothering you guys sssssooo much why keep on talking about it? Write a mod and ask for it to be moved.Plain and simple.



I don't think it should be moved, but closed and you can repost this in the Christianity forum. No use of moving it over there because the arguing that went down on the first few pages will detract from the conversation.

I apologize for coming on hard, but the ENT has all different types of people and I certainly did not expect this to turn into something about demons and gays. A healthy debate on Christian beliefs won't happen here among the debauchery of the entertainment world. 



S4LH said:


> Satan wasn't Satan when God created him. Satan was an angel over music, who had free will, and decided to go against God. We all have free will, just like Satan did.
> 
> I do agree that this thread should be moved to the Christian section just for the mere fact that the daytime folks will act a donkey. *Everything is pretty much cool now, but once daybreak comes, this will be a mess.*



 You already know!


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## username12 (Jun 25, 2009)

msa said:


> Well God created everything, including free will, Satan, and gay sex. God is quite interesting ain't He?


 
I'm glad you are asking questions.  I always said as a Christian, we must try to understand the faith we are practicing.

Basically, God allowed us to have free will.  He gives us the choice to do whatever we please, to choose to follow Him or not.  

I really encourage you to find a good, positive Bible based church to further help you in your learning if you haven't already.


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## Qualitee (Jun 25, 2009)

Mortons said:


> Yes we are. what I am asking is what does my answer now change or provoke in the conversation. Basically, are you going somewhere with this. Sorry I wasn't clear.


 no it doesnt. Obviously you are a lesbian and I wanted to see if you think  its a sin or not. I know alot of gay who think homosexuality is a sin and I know many who think it isnt. I wanted to see you view.


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## Mortons (Jun 25, 2009)

MuseofTroy said:


> Msa, Christians aren't perfect. At the end of the day we are all flesh and the flesh is corrupted. *It's VERY difficult for a human being to separate the person from the sin.* For example of some man brutally rapes you, it would be very difficult for you to separate that individual from the sinner. He will be Joe the rapist, not Joe the man who happened to have raped me. According to God's word that is what we are supposed to do. The truth is we all have our struggles in different areas. Personally I don't want to be around people who embrace toxic behavior and make no effort to improve their lives. As I stated earlier, God created man with free will. We can choose to give into the sin or fight against it.



Hmmmmm really? I could get naked and count all my appendages, body parts and body HAIRS as I think of the amount of preachers, deacons, grandfathers, elders, profits, worship leaders, and church board members who are forgiven for their sins of doing the church wrong in one or more ways or have had a blind eye turned to their inappropriate actions or had excuses made for them. But let someone be homosexual. They are condemned for life, talked about, told they are going to hell, have church crusades against them, etc. It sends the signal loud and clear that these things are more tolerable than being gay and thats not right in any shape form or fashion. There is no good or acceptable excuse, rhyme or reason as to why things are this way and whats even worse about it is if you speak out against this treatment you get told no one is perfect erplexed It wasn't a good enough reason when they were bashing gays though erplexed


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## MuseofTroy (Jun 25, 2009)

msa said:


> Nope Christians aren't perfect. Seems like they conveniently forget that as soon as homosexuality comes up though. Yes, we all have struggles in different areas. But looking at Christianity today, you wouldn't know that. You'd think homosexuality is the foundation for all that is wrong with the world right now, not greed, selfishness, or lack of love.


 
EH folks have issues. Personally I think people in general are messed up. Homosexual are the least of my worries to be completely honest. I have gay friends and they know my views. I still treat them like everyone else. You will never see me marching down the street burning a rainbow flag or claim that gays will go to hell. If you want me to keep it real, my personal pet peeve are women who contniue to have children they can't provide for financially or men who abandon their offspring. Now that's the uber lame in my opinion. Now lets start a thread about that LOL.


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## Qualitee (Jun 25, 2009)

msa said:


> Well wasn't that nice of Him. Don't you just hate when your parents set you up for failure?


 He didnt set us up for failure. We choose to sin. All because someone puts plate if food in front of you and they tell you not to eat it. If you do you cant blame that person you can only blame yourself.


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## username12 (Jun 25, 2009)

BroadstreetBully said:


> I mean seriously, it's ENT...liberal alley!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Yea girl, I learned the hard way how religion threads go.   The only reason I'm posting now is because everyone is really cool and we can just talk and disagree without getting nasty.  I wish it was like this more on the boards.  But y'all won't see me on this thread tomorrow, I already know how LHCF rolls


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## lady_godiva (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> God created sin and temptation to differentiate the true believers from the non believers.


 God did not create sin.  God does not tempt us to sin.  Please get in a Bible based church.


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

S4LH said:


> I'm glad you are asking questions.  I always said as a Christian, we must try to understand the faith we are practicing.
> 
> Basically, God allowed us to have free will.  He gives us the choice to do whatever we please, to choose to follow Him or not.
> 
> I really encourage you to find a good, positive Bible based church to further help you in your learning if you haven't already.



So nice of God to give us choices. Especially considering the limitations He instilled in us. 

Btw, I do have a lovely Bible based church that I've gone to for 10 years now. It's actually from studying the Bible and it's original Greek and Hebrew translations under my pastor that I've come to understand a few things about this modern day Christianity.


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## Qualitee (Jun 25, 2009)

lady_godiva said:


> God did not create sin. God does not tempt us to sin. Please get in a Bible based church.


like I said you blieve diffrently. God created the devil why wouldnt he creat sin? I go to a bible based church thank you


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## MuseofTroy (Jun 25, 2009)

msa said:


> So nice of God to give us choices. Especially considering the limitations He instilled in us.
> 
> Btw, I do have a lovely Bible based church that I've gone to for 10 years now. It's actually from studying the Bible and it's original Greek and Hebrew translations under my pastor that I've come to understand a few things about this modern day Christianity.


 
Msa out of curiosity are you Christian? 

I never felt limited in my ability. Perhaps I'm spoiled who knows. What limitations do you believe that God has given you? Correct me if I'm wrong, but you sound rather resentful towards God/Christianity.


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## MuseofTroy (Jun 25, 2009)

S4LH said:


> Yea girl, I learned the hard way how religion threads go. The only reason I'm posting now is because everyone is really cool and we can just talk and disagree without getting nasty. I wish it was like this more on the boards. But y'all won't see me on this thread tomorrow, I already know how LHCF rolls


 
I'm confused. What is going to happen tomorrow?


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> He didnt set us up for failure. We choose to sin. All because someone puts plate if food in front of you and they tell you not to eat it.* If you do you cant blame that person you can only blame yourself.*




LOL. Yes I'd blame myself in that situation, because I'm only dealing with another human.

With God being the creator of everything and all, I assume His reasoning is a bit more sophisticated than "look but don't touch". Then again, maybe it's not. Either way, I'm sure He's getting a lot of laughs out of this whole situation.


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## TrustMeLove (Jun 25, 2009)

msa said:


> Christianity aside, I am human. And I care about other humans. God may not see homosexuality as any different than pedophilia, but I do. I'm just practical like that. I think Christian churches (especially black ones) and groups need to be spending more time and energy and dollars on homelessness, food insecurity, alcohol/drug addiction, mental health issues, health care disparities, pedophilia, STD rates, the increase in high school dropouts and whole host of other issues before they need to be worried about homosexuality.
> 
> Frankly, gay folks are last on my list of things to worry about. I'm too busy thinking about all the evil heterosexuals out there who are raping their kids...or killing folk...or stealing from the welfare system.



Well, to be perfectly honest but my church doesn't have any outreach or programs against homosexuality or to specifically help those dealing with homosexuality.

We have a delieverance ministry where people meet and talk about some really personal things from drug addiction, shopping addictions, to sexual immorality...but nothing specific to homosexuals. 

We also host AA and NA meetings. A lot of the people who attend these meetings that are hosted at my church during the working week actually became members or visit often. They said they were drawn by the love of our church to open the doors for them to come and get help. And actually help w/o trying to proseltyze. 

Two ministers of our church started an organization called Project Impact. Some of you may have heard of it..It was started out of my church and hte model is leased and taught to different orgs throughout the country. This program counsels and works with men and women who are first time juvenille offenders. In many different ways to help them get their life on the right track. The courts turn them over to this program based of Christian principles instead of sending them up the river (to jail). The headquarters (I think or maybe just a satelite office since they have a bigger building in LBC) is run out of my church.

Also we opened part of our church to house a small high school..filed with neighborhood students. My Pastor is active in the school as well and many of those children's parents have been blessed by our church as well.

Not to mention all the members of our church don't use the church to necessarily get involved in the things that are important to them...I'm an HIV/AIDS Peer Mentor, my friend is the Director of a very successful programthat helps get students from LAUSD into pretigious Universities...

So, I think most people have alot of bad experiences with a church at some point in their lives and have seen alot of heretic type churches and have used that experience to brand all churches. It's just not the case. I love people and I love helping people. I don't necessarily use my chuch to do everything that is in my heart to do for people. However, my church is more focused on everything I mentioned above than anything having to do with gay people or homosexual lifestyles. Maybe that's a fault of ours that we don't have or arent' developing some type of homsexual outreach program....or something.. But, there are homosexuals in the church and I know that some go to the delieverance meetings. No one is trying to change anyone or rip anyone from something they are doing. Jesus has just called us all to repentance..and we repent daily..those who want delieverance will ask for help and that's when we as brothers and sister provide assistance in that area. Of course we are praying w/o ceasing as well. 

I'm of a younger generation so we are a bit more radical..a bit mroe people focused...and I think that mindset is taking over alot of the older things that may have happened in the past. We are definitely coming of age and getting into a different way to outreach and being more concerned with the least of these..like Jesus was...

I just thought I would share the above with you..since it seems like you might not know that there are churches many churches out there that don't have a anti-gay agenda. Honestly, I don't know one personally..and I sing so I go to ALOT of different churches.


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## username12 (Jun 25, 2009)

msa said:


> So nice of God to give us choices. Especially considering the limitations He instilled in us.
> 
> Btw, I do have a lovely Bible based church that I've gone to for 10 years now. It's actually from studying the Bible and it's original Greek and Hebrew translations under my pastor that I've come to understand a few things about this modern day Christianity.


 
I'm really confused.  And I'm not saying this to start an argument but just to get an understanding.  You are a Christian but you don't agree with God's teachings?  I'm not following, help me out


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## Qualitee (Jun 25, 2009)

msa said:


> LOL. Yes I'd blame myself in that situation, because I'm only dealing with another human.
> 
> With God being the creator of everything and all, I assume His reasoning is a bit more sophisticated than "look but don't touch". Then again, maybe it's not. Either way, I'm sure He's getting a lot of laughs out of this whole situation.


  oh lord.


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## BroadstreetBully (Jun 25, 2009)

MuseofTroy said:


> I'm confused. What is going to happen tomorrow?



This thread might go to page infinity (I have 40 posts per page) and will burn in LHCF hades.


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## MuseofTroy (Jun 25, 2009)

msa said:


> LOL. Yes I'd blame myself in that situation, because I'm only dealing with another human.
> 
> With God being the creator of everything and all, I assume His reasoning is a bit more sophisticated than "look but don't touch". Then again, maybe it's not. Either way, I'm sure He's getting a lot of laughs out of this whole situation.


 
Msa honestly from what you are typing you don't sound like you believe in God. Please correct me if I'm wrong but what exactly do you believe in it?


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

MuseofTroy said:


> Msa out of curiosity are you Christian?
> 
> I never felt limited in my ability. Perhaps I'm spoiled who knows. What limitations do you believe that God has given you? Correct me if I'm wrong, but you sound rather resentful towards God/Christianity.



I'm Christian.

The limitation I'm referring to is our inability to reason as He does because he only allows us to have basic knowledge (in comparison to what He has). I think it's interesting that He would give us the "choice" whether to sin or not, but then not give us the ability to completely get rid of the impulses that may cause us to choose "sin" in the first place. That's not much of a choice, IMO.


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## Mortons (Jun 25, 2009)

God did not create sin.  Lets Believe what the Bible says. It clearly states that God does not tempt us with sin. WE are tempted by our own desires due to free will. 

James 1:13-15 (King James Version)

 13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

 15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


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## toinette (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> He didnt set us up for failure. *We choose to sin*. All because someone puts plate if food in front of you and they tell you not to eat it. If you do you cant blame that person you can only blame yourself.



how is that since you have been saying all along that sin is the result of demonic possession? If thats true, how can it be a choice? and if homosexuality is really a sin as you say, how exactly are children who know they are gay at a very young age making that choice?


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## username12 (Jun 25, 2009)

MuseofTroy said:


> I'm confused. What is going to happen tomorrow?


 
The regulars are going to come out prowling for an argument, happens everytime.  And I can see if it's an argument where people are trying to understand, but people just be arguing just cuz 

Happens in every religion/alternative thinking thread   I learned to stay far, far away after getting "burned" a few times.  It was pointless.


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

S4LH said:


> I'm really confused.  And I'm not saying this to start an argument but just to get an understanding.  You are a Christian but you don't agree with God's teachings?  I'm not following, help me out



I don't believe in the modern mainstream expression of Christianity.


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## MuseofTroy (Jun 25, 2009)

msa said:


> I'm Christian.
> 
> The limitation I'm referring to is our inability to reason as He does because he only allows us to have basic knowledge (in comparison to what He has). I think it's interesting that He would give us the "choice" whether to sin or not, but then not give us the ability to completely get rid of the impulses that may cause us to choose "sin" in the first place. That's not much of a choice, IMO.


 
You do have a choice though. Why do you believe that people don't have choices? We aren't animals. God give as a brain to critically think. Most people want to blame God for their bad life choices and shortcomings but if they took the opprotunity to evaluate their life, 99.9% of the time they made bad choices and as a result had to pay the consequences for their actions. Human beings put limitations on God and what he can do. My apologies for not thinking you are a Christian but it seems like you are focusing on all the negative instead of the awesome tools God has given his people to deal with the craziness things that happen in this world. Most Christian's don't utilize the power God has given them. Instead they give in and end up miserable and questioning God.


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

toinette said:


> how is that since you have been saying all along that sin is the result of demonic possession? If thats true, how can it be a choice? and if homosexuality is really a sin as you say, *how exactly are children who know they are gay at a very young age making that choice*?




OMG. I asked the same exact question on the Christian forum. Apparently, kids can sin even if they don't know what sin is. And being gay is a sin even if you don't know what sex is. It's all because the sin is in the attraction, not the act. 

Other people did have a different view of it though.


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## Qualitee (Jun 25, 2009)

toinette said:


> how is that since you have been saying all along that sin is the result of demonic possession? If thats true, how can it be a choice? and if homosexuality is really a sin as you say, how exactly are children who know they are gay at a very young age making that choice?


 sin is a choice. You choose you be around situations where a demon can posses you. you choose not to go to church get yourself saved *live right* and sheild yourself from possession. When you are covered by the blood of jesus no weapon against you shall prosper.


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## Mortons (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> God created sin and temptation to differentiate the true believers from the non believers.



No He did not create sin. He created free will and sin is a spin off of that if you will. *God did not create temptation nor does he tempt anyone. *God does not not test our faith for his differentiation because he does not need to. He is all knowing. He allows free will so that our faith can be tested for our knowledge.


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## Mortons (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> sin is a choice. *You choose you be around situations where a demon can posses you.* you choose not to go to church get yourself saved *live right* and sheild yourself from possession. When you are covered by the blood of jesus no weapon against you shall prosper.



So I allowed for a demon to possess me as a child?


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

MuseofTroy said:


> You do have a choice though. Why do you believe that people don't have choices? We aren't animals. God give as a brain to critically think. Most people want to blame God for their bad life choices and shortcomings but if they took the opprotunity to evaluate their life, 99.9% of the time they made bad choices and as a result had to pay the consequences for their actions. Human beings put limitations on God and what he can do. My apologies for not thinking you are a Christian but it seems like you are focusing on all the negative instead of the awesome tools God has given his people to deal with the craziness things that happen in this world. Most Christian's don't utilize the power God has given them. Instead they give in and end up miserable and questioning God.




I think people have choices, but they are limited by certain constraints imposed by God.


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## Qualitee (Jun 25, 2009)

Mortons said:


> So I allowed for a demon to possess me as a child?


 yup..........


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

Mortons said:


> So I allowed for a demon to possess me as a child?



Yup.

Remember all those times you were disobedient when you were 1, 2, and 3 years of age? You allowed sin to put a stronghold on your life. Homosexuality is just the result.


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## Mortons (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> yup..........



So I was more weak minded as a child than other kids were, the demon saw I was an easy target and came for me? Is this what I am to believe is true?


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## lady_godiva (Jun 25, 2009)

Has anyone read the article I posted?


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## Qualitee (Jun 25, 2009)

Mortons said:


> So I was more weak minded as a child than other kids were, the demon saw I was an easy target and came for me? Is this what I am to believe is true?


 yup..............


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## Mortons (Jun 25, 2009)

msa said:


> Yup.
> 
> Remember all those times you were disobedient when you were 1, 2, and 3 years of age? You allowed sin to put a stronghold on your life. Homosexuality is just the result.



 Maybe I kicked my mom too hard in the womb?


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## username12 (Jun 25, 2009)

I do agree with Morton where some church members more harshly criticize homosexuality.  I see it often.  I think some judgemental people need scapegoats and need to condemn others to feel more "holy."   It's sad, Jesus tells us whomever is without sin cast the first stone.

I don't think anyone on this thread, at this time, is doing that now though.

What is it about modern Christainity that you don't agree with Msa?


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## Mortons (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> yup..............



I'm over here dying with laughter


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

Mortons said:


> Maybe I kicked my mom too hard in the womb?




Yup and probably gave her heartburn and forced her to get up in the middle of the night to pee.

And lets not forget all the pain you purposely caused by trying to come out of her vagina. That's probably when the demon jumped on you.


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## Qualitee (Jun 25, 2009)

Mortons said:


> I'm over here dying with laughter


 so am I


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## MuseofTroy (Jun 25, 2009)

msa said:


> I think people have choices, but they are limited by certain constraints imposed by God.


 

Help me out here. Be more specific. What constraints are you speaking of? If you make an assertion, please provide evidence to back up your claim. So what are these constraints imposed by God? Is it that humans can't fly? Please be specific. I'm curious about your thought process and why you feel the way you do. Believe it or not you are educating me so that next time I encounter someone with a similar thought process I might provide some meaningful dialogue with them.


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

S4LH said:


> What is it about modern Christainity that you don't agree with Msa?



In general, I think there's too much of a focus on getting saved (and random details like which day you go to church) so you can go to heaven and not enough of a focus on living right and treating other people well so that we can all live well enough that it would feel like heaven on earth.


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## MuseofTroy (Jun 25, 2009)

lady_godiva said:


> Has anyone read the article I posted?


 
Hon the link you posted isn't working. Can you double check to see if it's up now?


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## Mortons (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> so am I



Your foolish explanation, the fact that you don't know Bible verses or how to adequately interpret them, the fact that you are listening to a "mother" about B.C/early A.D psychology when she has no training tells me all I need to asses this situation about your beliefs.


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## toinette (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> sin is a choice. You choose you be around situations where a demon can posses you. you choose not to go to church get yourself saved *live right* and sheild yourself from possession. When you are covered by the blood of jesus no weapon against you shall prosper.



and again I have to ask how are these gay children making a choice to sin. A choice implies havng various options and the mental faculties to make an informed decision which these kids dont have. a lot of them dont even know what gay is, just that little Jimmy likes little Paul. sometimes its not even a sexual component but more of an affinity towards the same sex at that young age. Even the court of law makes the distinction between someone's mental capacity and state of mind which is why people are allowed to argue diminished capacity or schizophrenics or people with DID who commit a crime during a fugue arent sent to jail but sent to psych wards.


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## BroadstreetBully (Jun 25, 2009)

Well if this is going to turn into a discussion about homosexuality.

How would you all approach this issue if you find out your offspring is homosexual?


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## MuseofTroy (Jun 25, 2009)

msa said:


> In general, I think there's too much of a focus on getting saved (and random details like which day you go to church) so you can go to heaven and not enough of a focus on living right and treating other people well so that we can all live well enough that it would feel like heaven on earth.


 
I believe that getting saved is the first step in leading a godly life. Once someone is truly saved (mind you there are a bunch of fraud Christians out there who claim to be saved but their life and behavior isn't reflective of that transformation) I believe the fruits of their salvation is shown in their life. Someone who is saved strives to be Christ like in every area of their life. They want to be the very best person God wants them to be. Most people I know who are saved have good lives and true joy. They don't participate in destructive behavior and they approach situations with humility and wisdom.


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## username12 (Jun 25, 2009)

msa said:


> In general, I think there's too much of a focus on getting saved (and random details like which day you go to church) so you can go to heaven and not enough of a focus on living right and treating other people well so that we can all live well enough that it would feel like heaven on earth.


 
Ain't that the truth, won't get an argument outta me.  I totally agree.  

God warns us about false prophets and those false prophets are working overtime in manipulating the minds of people for their personal gain.  

That's why is so important to have a personal relationship with Jesus and pray to Him to give your guidance.


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## Qualitee (Jun 25, 2009)

Mortons said:


> Your foolish explanation, the fact that you don't know Bible verses or how to adequately interpret them, the fact that you are listening to a "mother" about B.C/early A.D psychology when she has no training tells me all I need to asses this situation about your beliefs.


 
_*Dont talk about my mother!*_


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

MuseofTroy said:


> Help me out here. Be more specific. What constraints are you speaking of? If you make an assertion, please provide evidence to back up your claim. So what are these constraints imposed by God? Is it that humans can't fly? Please be specific. I'm curious about your thought process and why you feel the way you do. Believe it or not you are educating me so that next time I encounter someone with a similar thought process I might provide some meaningful dialogue with them.




We are constrained by the fact that we do not have the same knowledge nor reasoning abilities (based on said knowledge) that God has. God knows what day the world is going to end. Do I? Nope. If I knew it would end tomorrow I'd probably make different choices than if I knew it was going to end in 2097.

We are also constrained by the fact that we were created with the ability to sin. No matter what we have desires that are going to overcome even our best efforts because we were made that way. So when people say that we "choose heaven or hell", I say we don't. We aren't really given the tools to choose heaven, for sure. And we aren't given any tools to avoid hell, for sure.


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## toinette (Jun 25, 2009)

Mortons said:


> So I allowed for a demon to possess me as a child?





Qualitee said:


> yup..........





Mortons said:


> So I was more weak minded as a child than other kids were, the demon saw I was an easy target and came for me? Is this what I am to believe is true?





Qualitee said:


> yup..............



wow. just wow 

in any case, it seems you may have missed it so I'll ask you again. Can you please point it out for me and the others who are missing it where it says that demonic possession and spirts are what causes people to sin in those verses that you quoted? Thanks


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## BroadstreetBully (Jun 25, 2009)

MuseofTroy said:


> I believe that getting saved is the first step in leading a godlylife. Once someone is truly saved (mind you there are a bunch of fraud Christians out there who claim to be saved but their life and behavior isn't reflective of that transformation) I believe the fruits of their salvation is shown in their life. Someone who is saved strives to be Christ like in every area of their life. They want to be the very best person God wants them to be. *Most people I know who are saved have good lives and true joy. They don't participate in destructive behavior and they approach situations with humility and wisdom.*



I have seen this, and I agree. Now my question: What do you make of people who are not saved and not Christian who lead fulfilling, healthy lives and in the process help others?


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## Qualitee (Jun 25, 2009)

Mortons said:


> Your foolish explanation, the fact that you don't know Bible verses or how to adequately interpret them, the fact that you are listening to a "mother" about B.C/early A.D psychology when she has no training tells me all I need to asses this situation about your beliefs.


 
_Leviticus 18:22 - "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." _
_Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." _

_1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor *homosexual offenders* nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." (NIV)._


_Sems like you dont know it either!_


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## MuseofTroy (Jun 25, 2009)

S4LH said:


> Ain't that the truth, won't get an argument outta me. I totally agree.
> 
> God warns us about false prophets and those false prophets are working overtime in manipulating the minds of people for their personal gain.
> 
> *That's why is so important to have a personal relationship with Jesus and pray to Him to give your guidance*.


 

Now that's the truth right there. So many Christians don't even read the bible on their own or do research. They depend on some random pastor for informaiton. Heck some people who weren't ordained by God formed ministries because of GREED. I'm actually thinking about learning Hebrew. Since the bible was translated from Hebrew and Greek, some of the meaning gets lost. One Hebrew word can have 100 different meanings. Maybe learning Hebrew might be excessive (but I'm a nerd and I love to learn so sue me LOL) but I believe it will be a fun educational project to undergo.


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## toinette (Jun 25, 2009)

BroadstreetBully said:


> Well if this is going to turn into a discussion about homosexuality.
> 
> How would you all approach this issue if you find out your offspring is homosexual?



i would probably be sad just because of the discrimination and ignorance that they will have to face but on a personal level it wouldnt bother me at all or change my rlshp with my child.


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

MuseofTroy said:


> I believe that getting saved is the first step in leading a godly life. Once someone is truly saved (mind you there are a bunch of fraud Christians out there who claim to be saved but their life and behavior isn't reflective of that transformation) I believe the fruits of their salvation is shown in their life. Someone who is saved strives to be Christ like in every area of their life. They want to be the very best person God wants them to be. Most people I know who are saved have good lives and true joy. They don't participate in destructive behavior and they approach situations with humility and wisdom.




Sad part is, being the very best person God wants you to be may not get you into heaven by God's own standards. And being saved (truly) may not get you into heaven either.


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## Mortons (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> _Leviticus 18:22 - "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." _
> _Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." _
> 
> _1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor *homosexual offenders* nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." (NIV)._
> ...



I know these verses well and I have actually talked about it in the christian forum. I will copy and paste my responses here.

I would still like a response for the bible verses that I posted that are clearly the opposite of what you claimed about God previously.


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

MuseofTroy said:


> Now that's the truth right there. So many Christians don't even read the bible on their own or do research. They depend on some random pastor for informaiton. Heck some people who weren't ordained by God formed ministries because of GREED. *I'm actually thinking about learning Hebrew. Since the bible was translated from Hebrew and Greek, some of the meaning gets lost. One Hebrew word can have 100 different meanings. Maybe learning Hebrew might be excessive (but I'm a nerd and I love to learn so sue me LOL) but I believe it will be a fun educational project to undergo.*




Definitely learn Hebrew. My church has been teaching Hebrew classes for the past 8 years. My pastor also uses the Greek as well during sermons and bible study.

It has really taught me a lot.


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## BroadstreetBully (Jun 25, 2009)

msa said:


> We are constrained by the fact that we do not have the same knowledge nor reasoning abilities (based on said knowledge) that God has. God knows what day the world is going to end. Do I? Nope. If I knew it would end tomorrow I'd probably make different choices than if I knew it was going to end in 2097.
> 
> We are also constrained by the fact that we were created with the ability to sin. No matter what we have desires that are going to overcome even our best efforts because we were made that way. So when people say that we "choose heaven or hell", I say we don't. We aren't really given the tools to choose heaven, for sure. And we aren't given any tools to avoid hell, for sure.



People are further constrained by basing their beliefs on words written how long ago and in a different society. Now everyone has their own interpretations and it gets messy.


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## MuseofTroy (Jun 25, 2009)

msa said:


> We are constrained by the fact that we do not have the same knowledge nor reasoning abilities (based on said knowledge) that God has. God knows what day the world is going to end. Do I? Nope. If I knew it would end tomorrow I'd probably make different choices than if I knew it was going to end in 2097.
> 
> We are also constrained by the fact that we were created with the ability to sin. No matter what we have desires that are going to overcome even our best efforts because we were made that way. So when people say that we "choose heaven or hell", I say we don't. We aren't really given the tools to choose heaven, for sure. And we aren't given any tools to avoid hell, for sure.


 
But Msa we are given the tools to choose heaven or hell. This discussion proves that point. Mind you  we aren't perfect. Sometimes mistakes prove to be valuable learning experiences. I appreciate my shortcomings and the errors I've made because I grew into a better person. My experiences can be a testimony to someone else who has had a similar struggle. Now granted I haven't had any crazy hardships but I've had some issues to deal with. I think you are missing the bigger picture. We aren't perfect and I don't even pretend to fully understand the whole meaning of life. However we should all live for today. Tomorrow isn't promised. Your decisions shouldn't be base don how much time you have, but what is right, just, and how your choices can uplift God's kingdom. Unless you didn't learn from your mistakes then I can see where you are coming from. But I suppose our own life experiences shape who we are and how we think.


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## Qualitee (Jun 25, 2009)

Mortons said:


> I know these verses well and I have actually talked about it in the christian forum. I will copy and paste my responses here.
> 
> I would still like a response for the bible verses that I posted that are clearly the opposite of what you claimed about God previously.


 Im done with you. You believe what you want to believe I dont care  You sitting there talking about my mother. are you serious? how would you feel if I spoke about your mother? I believe that demons make you sin and you believe differently. So be it. If you were to read the bible more and not what you want to read you would see that.


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## Mortons (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> _Leviticus 18:22 - "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." _
> _Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." _
> 
> _1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor *homosexual offenders* nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." (NIV)._
> ...



My old post from the Christianity forum. 

Leviticus 20:13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them.”- _ If a man lies with a man as with a woman. A man and woman have penetrative. This verse is saying if a man lays with a man as he would a woman it is a sin. Not laying with a man is a sin in itself. I think this is speaking to penetrative sex. In the Hebrew Bible there is no mention of lesbians or women in this verse. I don't know how we rectify that unless we are going to infer something upon silence. _

Romans 1:26-27 - "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."- _ Dealing with the natural and unnatural. Homosexuality is natural to a homosexual person, as heterosexuality is natural to a heterosexual person. Therefore, men who where heterosexual, were participating in homosexual acts with other men, and this was unnatural to them and indecent. Therefore they are to receive a penalty for that._

My understand is Leviticus was Purity codes correct? Many of which we no longer obied by in the Church as a whole.


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## MuseofTroy (Jun 25, 2009)

BroadstreetBully said:


> I have seen this, and I agree. Now my question: What do you make of people who are not saved and not Christian who lead fulfilling, healthy lives and in the process help others?


 
I have some unsaved people in my inner circle and they are confused, frustrated and have a superficial appreciation for life. So I'm probably not the right one to answer that question. Oprah seems happy but who knows what goes on behind closed doors. When I was agnostic I felt frustrated about life. I wasn't sure about my purpose.


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## Mortons (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> Im done with you. You believe what you want to believe I dont care  You sitting there talking about my mother. are you serious? how would you feel if I spoke about your mother? I believe that demons make you sin and you believe differently. So be it. If you were to read the bible more and not what you want to read you would see that.



The only thing I said about her was that she was not a scholar on the B.C/early A.D mental illnesses. How is she teaching you and she was not researched on this? I am sure she is a wonderful woman none the less, just not a psychologist skilled in mental illness.


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

MuseofTroy said:


> But Msa we are given the tools to choose heaven or hell. This discussion proves that point. Mind you  we aren't perfect. Sometimes mistakes prove to be valuable learning experiences. I appreciate my shortcomings and the errors I've made because I grew into a better person. My experiences can be a testimony to someone else who a similar struggle. Now granted I haven't had any crazy hardships but I've had some issues to deal with. I think you are missing the bigger picture. We aren't perfect and I don't even pretend to fully understand the whole meaning of life. However we should all live for today. Tomorrow isn't promised. Your decisions shouldn't be base don how much time you have, but what is right, just, and how your choices can uplift God's kingdom. Unless you didn't learn from your mistakes then I can see where you are coming from. But I suppose our own life experiences shape who we are and how we think.




I guess we just have a fundamental difference in philosophy.

I don't think we can truly choose heaven or hell. Now, if there were no temptations and the built in human propensity to sin was nonexistent and folks just walked around being evil or doing wrong, then I'd say they were actually choosing.

But because of all the built in weaknesses I don't think we can actually choose heaven or hell. We're all already headed for hell because of our biology and a lucky few will get to heaven because God felt like they should. Which is great, for them.


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## toinette (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> Im done with you. You believe what you want to believe I dont care  You sitting there talking about my mother. are you serious? *how would you feel if I spoke about your mother?* I believe that demons make you sin and you believe differently. So be it. If you were to read the bible more and not what you want to read you would see that.



does it even really matter if you talk about her mother at this point? You basically already told her that she was such a weak-minded child that the Devil was able to grab hold of her to this day and make her a lesbian. How do you even top that?


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## MuseofTroy (Jun 25, 2009)

msa said:


> Sad part is, being the very best person God wants you to be may not get you into heaven by God's own standards. And being saved (truly) may not get you into heaven either.


 
Being saved does get you into heaven. No offense but what you are saying isn't supported by scripture but I hope and pray that you find peace in your life. For someone who is christian you seem to have so much doubt and turmoil. However I appreciate this conversation with you msa. I had some spiritual questions this week and this thread revealed the answer to my own questions. God truly is amazing. I'm not sure about you but I'm confident that when it's my time, I'm going to heaven. I'm sorry you don't feel the same way about your salvation. My belief is based on an authetnic relationship with Jesus, despite my flaws and shortcomings.


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## username12 (Jun 25, 2009)

All in all, we are saved by God's grace.  Good works are dead without faith.  Keep the faith, ask God for understanding and clarity, and you will be fine. 

What has given me peace is accepting that there are things of the world we just won't completely understand.  Although we are "technologically savvy,"  we will still never understand it all, the universe, other solar systems, religion.  People still can't figure out how the Egyptians built the pyramids.  Am I going off track?  Yes, which is a sign I need to go to bed, but seriously, we will never understand it all.  So just try your best to reflect the teachings of Jesus (which is love), have faith, and believe.  That's all we can do.


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## MuseofTroy (Jun 25, 2009)

msa said:


> I guess we just have a fundamental difference in philosophy.
> 
> I don't think we can truly choose heaven or hell. Now, if there were no temptations and the built in human propensity to sin was nonexistent and folks just walked around being evil or doing wrong, then I'd say they were actually choosing.
> 
> But because of all the built in weaknesses I don't think we can actually choose heaven or hell. We're all already headed for hell because of our biology and a lucky few will get to heaven because God felt like they should. Which is great, for them.


 
Speak for yourself. I'm not going to hell. With your philosophy why are you even Christian then if you believe that you can't go to heaven?


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## toinette (Jun 25, 2009)

Mortons said:


> My old post from the Christianity forum.
> 
> Leviticus 20:13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them.”- _ If a man lies with a man as with a woman. A man and woman have penetrative. This verse is saying if a man lays with a man as he would a woman it is a sin. Not laying with a man is a sin in itself. I think this is speaking to penetrative sex. In the Hebrew Bible there is no mention of lesbians or women in this verse. I don't know how we rectify that unless we are going to infer something upon silence. _
> 
> ...



I dont see how homosexuality is unnatural anyways. Homosexuality can be found among many species of the animal kingdom (sheep,bison, mice, lions, etc...) Are they being possessed by demons as well?


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## Qualitee (Jun 25, 2009)

toinette said:


> does it even really matter if you talk about her mother at this point? You basically already told her that she was such a weak-minded child that the Devil was able to grab hold of her to this day and make her a lesbian. How do you even top that?


 there is a fine line btwn talking about some to their face and then saying soething about their mother. atleast she is here to defend herself. my mother is not. she said lot of things about me too but I never said anything about her mom. Gurl plz dont come up in here acting like if someone didnt say something about your mother you wouldnt get upset too.


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

MuseofTroy said:


> *Being saved does get you into heaven. No offense but what you are saying isn't supported by scripture* but I hope and pray that you find peace in your life. For someone who is christian you seem to have so much doubt and turmoil. However I appreciate this conversation with you msa. I had some spiritual questions this week and this thread revealed the answer to my own questions. God truly is amazing. I'm not sure about you but I'm confident that when it's my time, I'm going to heaven. I'm sorry you don't feel the same way about your salvation. My belief is based on an authetnic relationship with Jesus, despite my flaws and shortcomings.




Now I'm confused.

So as long as a person is saved they can do whatever else and still get into heaven?


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## Mortons (Jun 25, 2009)

MuseofTroy said:


> Being saved does get you into heaven. No offense but what you are saying isn't supported by scripture but I hope and pray that you find peace in your life.* For someone who is christian you seem to have so much doubt* and turmoil. However I appreciate this conversation with you msa. I had some spiritual questions this week and this thread revealed the answer to my own questions. God truly is amazing. I'm not sure about you but I'm confident that when it's my time, I'm going to heaven. I'm sorry you don't feel the same way about your salvation. My belief is based on an authetnic relationship with Jesus, despite my flaws and shortcomings.



As I ponder this I don't think its those of us who ponder, think, research, doubt, go back, read, reread, and truly try our best to grasp Him and the essence his Word to our understanding. Its those who accept and believe any and everything someone says a Christian should that we should be concerned about saving and teaching. 

A thinking and feeling person can always feel out and find a way back to God.


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

MuseofTroy said:


> Speak for yourself. I'm not going to hell. With your philosophy why are you even Christian then if you believe that you can't go to heaven?



I don't necessarily believe that I can't go to heaven. Just that all humans are on the path to hell and that some of them are lucky enough to get on a different path sometimes.



toinette said:


> I dont see how homosexuality is unnatural anyways. Homosexuality can be found among many species of the animal kingdom (sheep,bison, mice, lions, etc...) Are they being possessed by demons as well?



Yup, animal demons. Sent to trick humans into believing that homosexuality is natural.


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## Qualitee (Jun 25, 2009)

Goodnite ladies


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## lilsparkle825 (Jun 25, 2009)

lady_godiva, I just want to thank you for your posts. The information (read: KJV scripture references) you gave reflect what I was taught growing up. That is, the Bible is already subject to too much interpretation by man (i.e. NIV, annotated Bibles), and people can tailor any verse to mean what they want it to. I think the biggest issue I had was with the OP's answers, honestly -- what kind of answer is "trust me, it's in there", then the scriptures you post don't even say "sins are caused by demons"? This is a messy thread. OP, they probably have a choir and a band in your church too, huh?

I don't care what kind of exorcism, baptism, anything you perform on a homosexual person that seems to "work". You don't know how many extra steps this person will take in the future to be even more diligent about hiding a homosexual relationship, what kind of porn he or she is watching in the comfort of his/her own home, what kind of THOUGHTS are going on in that person's head. I just cannot and will not believe that someone can be cured of homosexuality. And no, that person getting married and having kids is not proof of a cure, it's just proof of a coverup.


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## BroadstreetBully (Jun 25, 2009)

MuseofTroy said:


> I have some unsaved people in my inner circle and they are confused, frustrated and have a superficial appreciation for life. So I'm probably not the right one to answer that question. Oprah seems happy but who knows what goes on behind closed doors. When I was agnostic I felt frustrated about life. I wasn't sure about my purpose.



Okay, I didn't know you were once agnostic. I definitely think that people should choose the path right for them, and dedicate themselves to it. It's great to follow a path that instills within you a sense of completion.


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## Mortons (Jun 25, 2009)

toinette said:


> I dont see how homosexuality is unnatural anyways. Homosexuality can be found among many species of the animal kingdom (sheep,bison, mice, lions, etc...) Are they being possessed by demons as well?



Its not.



Qualitee said:


> there is a fine line btwn talking about some to their face and then saying soething about their mother. atleast she is here to defend herself. my mother is not. she said lot of things about me too but I never said anything about her mom. Gurl plz dont come up in here acting like if someone didnt say something about your mother you wouldnt get upset too.



I think you are upset that you are unable to prove the point you feel you had about homosexuality and spirits and redirecting your anger. Please believe I meant no malice or harm to your mother. I simply pointed out she was not a scholar on which you claim she taught you, which is a more complicated subject to be discussion and teaching to no have a degree in. How is that wrong of me?


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

S4LH said:


> All in all, we are saved by God's grace.  Good works are dead without faith.  Keep the faith, ask God for understanding and clarity, and you will be fine.
> 
> What has given me peace is accepting that there are things of the world we just won't completely understand.  Although we are "technologically savvy,"  we will still never understand it all, the universe, other solar systems, religion.  People still can't figure out how the Egyptians built the pyramids.  Am I going off track?  Yes, which is a sign I need to go to bed, but seriously, we will never understand it all.  *So just try your best to reflect the teachings of Jesus (which is love), have faith, and believe.*  That's all we can do.



As my youth pastor says, so many people have such a hard time with the love part that they can't get anywhere near faith.


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## lady_godiva (Jun 25, 2009)

*Can a Christian Be Demonized?*



DD075*Brent Grimsley and Elliot Miller*

http://www.addthis.com/bookmark.php


A believer (we’ll call him Carl) attends a conference on spiritual warfare sponsored by his church. During a “hands-on” workshop he confesses that an immobilizing fear of rejection has always prevented him from sharing his faith with nonbelievers. The group leader suggests that an evil spirit is responsible for Carl’s problem. After prayer for discernment, and with Carl’s permission, the leader and a few others lay their hands on him to perform an exorcism. Although Carl can hardly remember the experience afterwards, he is told that a spirit named “fear” was compelled to identify himself. After putting up fierce resistance he was finally expelled through the authority of Jesus’ name.

For some time afterward Carl experiences victory over his fear, and even leads a few souls to Christ. But then the old feelings of intimidation resurface, causing him to wonder if another deliverance session might be necessary.

*OPPOSING VIEWPOINTS*

North American Christians have become increasingly aware of their battle with demonic forces. Teaching on spiritual warfare is in great demand today. And the doctrine that Christians can be inhabited by demons is popularly taught by respected teachers across divergent theological lines, from charismatic to anticharismatic dispensational. Entire ministries have been founded for the purpose of delivering Christians from demonic control. As a result, stories like those of “Carl” have become almost commonplace, causing concern to some.

Can a Christian have a demon? The question is not merely academic. The answer affects the type of pastoral care one can expect to provide or receive (e.g., can a point be reached in a counseling relationship where an exorcism becomes necessary?) and the way a believer perceives his or her battle with the world, the flesh, and the Devil.

In this article we will first examine the currently popular view that, while a Christian cannot be “demon possessed,” believers may be “*demonized*.” This means that (1) demons can reside within believers and exercise control over them, and (2) the appropriate method of dealing with this problem is to cast the demon out.

The second view to be considered (and, in this article, defended) states that a believer cannot be inhabited and therefore controlled by a demonic spirit since he or she is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. This view does allow that believers may be externally “oppressed” by demonic forces, but maintains that resistance, not deliverance, is the proper method of dealing with this problem. Let’s look at the reasons given for these two opposing views.

*BIBLICAL EVIDENCE*

*Etymological Considerations*

*View no.1* understands the Greek verb _daimonizomai_ to be translated “*demonized*” rather than “demon possessed” because (1) possession implies ownership and Satan does not own anything; (2) the verb is passive and pictures a demon controlling a passive person; and (3) the verb’s root means a “demon-caused passivity.”1

It is obvious that “*demonized*” is a more attractive translation than “demon possessed” to those who believe a demon can invade and inhabit a believer’s body. This avoids the emotive connotations associated with demon possession. One might take this translation to mean demonic influence from without. But this would be misguided, since (1) this is the main term used in the New Testament to describe people inhabited by demons (along with variations of “have a demon”), and it is never used for anything less; and (2) those who teach that a believer can be *demonized* also teach that wicked spirits can actually reside within a Christian. These demons would then need to be cast out. Thus, the issue is not the translation of the verb, but the location of wicked spirits relative to the believer. In other words we may ask: Can demons _control _Christians from within or only _oppress _them from without?

*View no. 2* understands the verb to mean “demon possessed” because (1) the Greek lexicons and theological dictionaries all translate _daimonizomai _as “to be possessed by a demon”;2 and (2) one of the English dictionary definitions for _possess _is “to gain or exert influence or control over; dominate” (_American Heritage Dictionary__, 3d_ ed.). Thus, demon possession can be understood as “possession to control.” W. E. Vine translates the verb this way: “To be possessed of a demon, to act under the control of a demon.”3


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## toinette (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> there is a fine line btwn talking about some to their face and then saying soething about their mother. atleast she is here to defend herself. my mother is not. she said lot of things about me too but I never said anything about her mom. *Gurl plz dont come up in here acting like if someone didnt say something about your mother you wouldnt get upset too.*



if someone told me that my momma the nurse isnt a qualified mechanic, then no I wouldnt. Cause thats all she said - that your mother wasnt a formally trained scholar on some of the matters that you say she instucted you in. and honestly if you're saying that God is the one that creates sin and tempts us when the Bible expicitly says that he doesnt then I'm thinking she's not too far off the mark.


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## lady_godiva (Jun 25, 2009)

View no.2 better fits the etymological facts (i.e., the historical usage of the word) because: (1) the issue is not _ownership _(as in the popularized myth that one can “sell his soul to the Devil”) but the _location _of a demon relative to the believer, for only if the demon is within the believer is it truly in a position to control (and thus _possess__) him_ or her; (2) in Jesus’ parable of the strong man (Matt. 12.29; Luke 11:21-22), He compares His freeing the captives of demon invasion with someone first binding a strong man (i.e., Satan) and then plundering his possessions (Greek _huparchõ__, in_ Luke 11:21). Since the _possessions _in the parable represent the people Jesus delivers from demons, there is a biblical sense in which Satan can possess people; (3) in Greek the passive voice merely means that the subject is the recipient of the action, a fact perfectly consistent with the term _demon possessed_ when properly defined as being inhabited, and thus controlled by, a demon.

*Scriptures Cited to Support Invasion of Christians*

Due to space limitations we must restrict ourselves to examining the most plausible proof texts. The following two passages are cited time and again by those who teach that a Christian can be “demonized.”

*The Case of King Saul**.*_ T_wo passages say that an evil spirit from God came upon Saul. Both times he tried to pin David to the wall with his javelin (1 Sam. 18:10-11; 19:9-10). The first question to be considered is whether Saul was a genuine believer. Although at the time of his anointing as king it appeared as though he were a man of God (1 Sam. 10, ff.), his subsequent behavior was not consistent with an authentic conversion (James 2:14). The fact that he was anointed and used by God does not prove he was a true believer: God used even pagan kings such as Cyrus as His anointed men to accomplish His purposes (Isa. 45:1).

Even if we grant that Saul at one time was a genuine believer and later became possessed by a demon, it doesn’t follow that the same is possible for genuine believers today. Although Scripture does not explicitly describe the nature of regeneration prior to Christ’s atonement, it would appear that believers in the Old Testament did not have the Holy Spirit as a permanent indwelling presence, as do New Testament believers (e.g., Ps. 51:11).

Thomas Ice and Robert Dean, Jr., add an additional reason for rejecting the example of King Saul in this regard: “The Hebrew text says that the evil spirit would come _upon _Saul or depart from _upon_ him; it is never said to have entered _into _Saul, as would be expected if demon-possesion was the intended idea.”4

*The Case of the Woman Bent Double**.*_ In_ Luke 13:10-17 we read of a “daughter of Abraham” who “had a spirit of infirmity” (KJV) which left her bent over, unable to straighten up. Satan is identified as the one who bound her for 18 years (v. 16). There is no question that this sickness was demonically instigated but is there enough evidence to suggest that the woman was a true believer indwelt by a demon?

In _Demon Possession and the Christian__, C_. Fred Dickason, the dean of Moody Bible Institute’s theology department, affirms that the weight of the evidence points in the direction that she was a genuine believer. First, she worshiped at the synagogue. Second, she glorified God because of her healing (v. 13). Third, the phrase “daughter of Abraham” implies salva&shy;tion when taken with the passage about Zacchaeus (Luke 19:9).5

The phrase “daughter of Abraham,” however, doesn’t necessarily mean the woman was a true believer in God and Christ, for it was most likely used ethnically to mean she was a Jew.6 Jesus’ statement about Zacchaeus being a “son of Abraham” means that Zacchaeus should from that point on be regarded as truly a Jew and a member of God’s covenant people, even though he was a hated tax-gatherer for a foreign power, namely Rome.

That she was a regular synagogue attender, and that she praised God for her healing, are beside the point. One could attend synagogue without being a true worshiper of God — consider the scribes and Pharisees. There is no mention of her coming to faith in Jesus. But if she did, it could easily have been a _result _of her deliverance rather than existing prior to it.
Furthermore, it is not at all clear that the woman bent double was demon possessed. Modern translations render the literal Greek phrase “spirit of infirmity” as “sickness caused by a spirit” (NAS), “crippled by a spirit” (NIV), and so forth. This would seem to be the intended sense of the phrase, as Jesus did not perform an exorcism on her (as He consistently did in clear cases of demon possession) but simply pronounced her cured.

As even Dickason admits, “we cannot conclusively say that the Bible clearly presents evidence that believers may be *demonized*.”7 The strongest passages in support of the view are unconvincing. Since the church historically has not held that Christians can be demon possessed,8 and since the idea of a demon coinhabiting a body with the Holy Spirit is naturally repugnant, the burden of proof should be on those who say that a genuine believer can be inhabited by a demon. Yet the most such scholars as Dickason can say is that the Bible does not clearly give evidence that believers _cannot _be *demonized*. This is to argue from silence at _precisely the point _where we would expect clear biblical teaching.

*Scriptures against Invasion of Christians*

Is the Bible truly neutral on the subject of Christian demon possession? While Scripture does not address the issue directly, we submit that it does lay down certain truths and principles that militate against such a view. In fact, a comprehensive study of this subject in the New Testament should lead to one conclusion: citizenship in Christ’s king&shy;dom and demon possession are mutually exclusive concepts, because demon possession implies citizenship in _Satan’s__ kingdom_.

*The Plundering of Satan’s Possessions**.* As we saw above, those inhabited by demons, are considered Satan’s “possessions” which Jesus came to “plunder through the establishment of His kingdom. By faith, all Christians are delivered from the kingdom of darkness and transferred into “the kingdom of His beloved Son” (Col. 1:13; Ads 26:18). It is therefore no coincidence that every occurrence of the word _daimonizomai _and related terms in the New Testament, and every exorcism recorded, appear to involve non-Christians, usually in the context of evangelism. The reality that “the kingdom of God is near is demonstrated when Satan, the ruler of this world, can no longer hold on to his captives (Luke 10:17-20).

The assumption throughout Scripture is that one might have God dwelling within, or Satan, but not both. For example, the apostle John assures his Christian readers: “You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is _in you _than he who is _in the world__” (_1 John 4:4). It is reasonable to infer from this that he who is “in the world” cannot also be “in you.”


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## lady_godiva (Jun 25, 2009)

*Temples** of the Living God**.* The indwelling Holy Spirit makes the believer a temple of the living God. Paul exhorts the Corinthian Christians not to be bound together with unbelievers on the grounds that they are the temple of God — and harmony between light and darkness, Christ and Belial (Satan), and the temple of God and idols (which Paul associates with demons in 1 Cor. 10:19-20) is impossible (2 Cor. 6:14-18). How then would God, who is greater than Satan, allow a demon to reside with Him in His temple?

In the parable of the man repossessed (Matt. 12:43-45), the unclean spirit returns to the “house” from which he’d been driven out and, finding it unoccupied, resumes residency with seven spirits more evil than himself. We may legitimately conclude that, had he found his old dwelling occupied (by the Holy Spirit), he would not have been able to regain possession of the man.

*Sealed and Kept by God**.*_ The_ indwelling Spirit also means that believers are sealed by God as His possessions and kept for the day of redemption (Eph. 1:13-14). Although the believer is in spiritual warfare and therefore is still subject to the influences and assault of Satan (Eph. 6:10-18), his or her status as a child and possession of God sets definite limits as to what the powers of darkness can do. 1 John 5:18 states that “He who was born of God keeps him and the evil one does not touch him.” No evil angel can separate the true believer from the love of God in Christ Jesus (Rom. 8:38-39).

*A Conspicuous Absence**.*_ In light of_ the clear scriptural fact that Satan is limited in what he can do to believers, it is significant not only that we find no possessed Christians in the New Testament, but also that there is no practical instruction on exorcism within the church. The epistles are certainly not lacking in teaching on spiritual warfare. But though we are frequently warned of the dangers of satanic attack, the method of dealing with the Devil is always the same: “_Resist _him, firm in your faith...” (1 Pet. 5:9; cf. Eph. 6:10-14; James 4:7). As Ice points out, “Never are believers said to respond to Satan or demons by casting them out, which is always the remedy in the New Testament for a demon possessed person. Instead, for the believer the command is always to stand or resist, which is the counter to an external temptation by Satan and the demonic.”9

This is a valid argument from silence. For if deliverance is as important to victorious Christian living as its advocates would have us believe, we can rightly expect the New Testament to deal with it. Ice and Dean make this point forcefully. “We believe that such silence speaks volumes....the Bible clearly claims to give us _everything pertaining to life and godliness _(2 Peter 1:3) and is _adequate to equip us for every good work_ (2 Timothy 3:17)....those who teach Christian possession are by implication denying the sufficiency of Scripture and are going beyond its authority by promoting their own. They have forgotten the warning of Paul: ‘...that in us you might learn not to exceed what is writ&shy;ten....’ (1 Corinthians 4:6).”10

*EXPERIENTIAL EVIDENCE*

It is important to understand the reasoning of those who Ice and Dean charge with going beyond scriptural authority. In perhaps the most rigorous and persuasive example of this reasoning, Dickason cites numerous cases of people who by all appearances would seem to be genuine Christians genuinely manifesting symptoms of demon possession. For Dickason, like all other advocates of the doctrine, it is the repeated occurrence of this kind of phenomena that persuades him that Christians can have demons.

While Dickason makes it clear that Christians should _not _place experience above Scripture in determining doctrine, he attempts to demonstrate that Scripture is effectively silent on this matter. Thus he is able to conclude: “We recognize the lack of conclusive evidence in the Bible on this issue and would not elevate our [experience-based] conclusion to the stature of biblical truth. But we have found the factual [experiential] truth to be that Christians can be and have been *demonized*.”11

We find two problems with Dickason’s reasoning. First, although he insists that he does not elevate this conclusion to the stature of biblical truth, for all intents and purposes that is precisely what he and the other proponents of Christian demonization do. For they solemnly teach and defend, as a matter of some importance, a _doctrine _(i.e., an alleged theological truth) that is based on experience. That of itself is problematic. We believe as a rule it is wiser for teachers to remain silent where Scripture is silent on theological/spiritual issues.

Second, Dickason assumes that because Scripture is silent on the issue it is also neutral. Thus he never adequately deals with the argument _from silence _explained above; that is, it is not insignificant that a problem as serious as would be demon invasion of Christians is never clearly depicted nor even remotely discussed in the New Testament. Furthermore, as we’ve seen, the Bible is not entirely silent on this question; though it does not explicitly address it, it does implicitly point us toward a conclusion. Dickason and the others have erred by allowing experience to have a stronger impact on their thinking than the implicit biblical evidence against the view.


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## lady_godiva (Jun 25, 2009)

*Alternative Explanations*

If we do not accept the claims of Christian possession, what are we to make of the many dramatic experiences reported by Dickason, the late theologian Merrill Unger, John Wimber (leader of the vineyard churches), and numerous others? We don’t doubt the reality of many such experiences, but the interpretation these teachers give them is not called for.

*Psychological Sources**.*_ Many_ of these occurrences could be attributed to psychological sources — not only mental illness (which is no doubt a factor in some cases) but also the power of suggestion. In our long-term research of religious movements and phenomena, time and again we have run into a curious fact: intelligent people can become persuaded of improbable beliefs when striking manifestations issue from their own psyches or the psyches of others, or are experienced as external events. These beliefs range from elaborate conspiracies involving satanic ritual abuse of children, to UFO encounters, to past-life recall, to apparitions of Mary or signs in the heavens produced by Mary. In many of these and other cases a common denominator is a contagious anticipation — often set into motion by the leaders of the event — that such manifestations very well may occur.

It can be observed that phenomena will be cited in support of almost _any _belief, no matter how unbiblical. There is much that we have yet to learn about the dynamics of our own minds, and some of these little-understood factors demonstrate a powerful capacity to lead people into psychological self-deception.

*Satanic Deception**. *_If_ this explanation seems inadequate to account for some of the manifestations, there is a second possible source that could at times work in conjunction with the first. Just as it is possible that demonic as well as psychological factors could be involved in alleged UFO encounters, past-life recall, apparitions of Mary, and so forth, so in the case of Christians being delivered of demons.

Of course, this is exactly what the proponents of Christian deliverance argue to be the case. But just as _deception _would be Satan’s true objective in the sensational phenomena cited above, so might it be with exorcisms of Christians. Clearly, the Devil would like us to believe he has more power over us than he actually does.

It seems that demons would be capable of producing certain audible, mental, and bodily phenomena from a position external to the Christian in order to create the illusion that the Christian is, in fact, possessed. If they can convince believers that they have the power to control them, then such believers, though _actually _in control of their own wills, will grant the powers of darkness a degree of control by default. A Christian who resorts to deliverance sessions to gain spiritual victory rather than standing firm in the promises and provisions of Christ has already been greatly neutralized by the enemy.

*Possessed, but Not Regenerate**.*_ A_ third possible explanation is that the individuals truly were demon possessed, but were not truly believers. How does one determine who is and who is not a genuine Christian? Only God knows for sure the identities of His elect and the true state of an individual’s soul (_see__, _e.g., 2 Tim. 2:19; 1 Sam. 16:7; and the parable of the wheat and tares in Matt. 13:24-30, 36-43). In some cases the manifestation of wicked spirits could be one step along the way to genuine conversion.

We must conclude that it is impossible to ascertain for certain who is truly demon possessed and who is truly a Christian, since these questions have to do with the interior, unobservable conditions of individuals. It is therefore folly to base one’s view on the _apparent _condition of Christians being demon possessed when the weight of New Testament theology (regarding the kingdoms of Christ and Satan) leans against that view.

*THEOLOGICAL ARGUMENTS*

In addition to the above biblical and experiential evidence, diverse theological arguments are marshaled in support of Christian demonization. We will consider some of the most common examples here.

*Demonic Tormentor, as God’s Chastisement**.* One argument states that God allows demons to invade the bodies of believers as a form of chastisement if they continue to sin and give ground to Satan. One such sin often cited is lack of forgiveness (2 Cor. 2:10-11; Eph. 4:26-27; Matt. 18:21-35). But in Matthew 18:35 there is nothing to suggest that the tormentors (v. 24) are to be taken literally. They are an incidental part of the story (or are we to believe that demons torment us until we “repay all” that we owe God?). Neither is there anything in the passage concerning demonic activity.

Second Corinthians 2:10-11 and Ephesians 4:26-27 speak of giving the Devil an “opportunity’ or an “advantage” through anger and unforgiveness. But contextually this clearly means giving Satan the opportunity to hinder the church’s unity and witness, not to take possession of believers.

_Punishment for Seeking Special Gifts or Power_. A second argument says that God may allow a demon to invade a believer if he or she seeks special gifts or power. But this warning can be carried too far: God’s Word clearly tells us to seek spiritual gifts and the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 14:1; Luke 11:13).

Of course, we must avoid seeking occultic power. The Bible warns the believer against involvement with demons (1 Cor. 10:14-22), but it never suggests the danger of such involvement is demonic possession.

It is true that there are satanic counterfeits to divine, spiritual power (2 Thess. 2:9). The need, then, is to test the spirits (1 John 4:1-3), the moral character of those purporting to have spiritual gifts (Matt. 7:22-23), and all teaching within the church by the Bible (1 Tim. 4:1; 2 Tim. 3:16-4:5); not to deny the possibility of legitimate manifestations of God’s presence and power.


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## toinette (Jun 25, 2009)

msa said:


> Now I'm confused.
> 
> So as long as a person is saved they can do whatever else and still get into heaven?



I think being saved falls into the "necessary but not sufficient" category 



msa said:


> Yup, animal demons. Sent to trick humans into believing that homosexuality is natural.



stop


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## MuseofTroy (Jun 25, 2009)

msa said:


> Now I'm confused.
> 
> So as long as a person is saved they can do whatever else and still get into heaven?


 
You answer this already but I have to ask again, do you study Christianity for educational/philosophical purposes or are you saved? 

Someone who is saved wouldn't need to answer that type of question. Msa I'm not trying to call you out nor am I in the position to question one's salvation but some of your comments make me believe that you aren’t saved. The reason I said this because I was just like you a few years ago before I was saved LOL.

Nevertheless I'm not going to entertain your question. There are times when a wise man leaves well enough alone. Most of your comments about salvation had no biblical support which shocks me since you even undergone studying Hebrew. As I stated before, back up your statements with facts. If you think you are going to hell that's a burden on your mind. I'm not going to hell and if I happen to be part of the elite few getting into heaven then I feel really awesome.


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## lady_godiva (Jun 25, 2009)

*God Can Dwell with Evil**. *Jack Deere, until recently the chief theologian for the Vineyard movement, argues that “Jesus dwells with sin anytime he inhabits the heart of a new believer. If He can dwell in a sinful person why couldn’t he dwell in a demonized person?”12

This analogy between demonic evil and the evil of fallen humanity is flawed. God stands in a different relationship to demons than to believers. He is the _judge _of Satan and demons and the _savior _of believers. Demons are enemies of God; believers, despite their sin natures, are His servants and friends. God will dwell with His people; He will not dwell with His enemies. This argument fails to recognize the essential difference between evil persons (demons) and redeemed persons (believers) who have evil within them (the “flesh”), but also have a new nature (the “spirit”) which causes them to ultimately triumph over evil (1 John 3:9).

*Demons Reside in the Soul, Not in the Spirit**. *_Yet_ another argument says that demons can reside within a believer’s soul, but not within his or her spirit where the Holy Spirit dwells.13 But there is no ontological or fundamental distinction between the soul and spirit in Scripture. Indeed, the terms are used interchangeably, so this argument does not stand up to biblical scrutiny.14 Furthermore, the real issue is whether God and Satan can coinhabit the believer’s _body _(e.g., 1 Cor. 6:19), which would still be the case even if one inhabited the believer’s spirit and the other the believer’s soul. Therefore, this argument is really beside the point.


*DELIVER US FROM DELIVERANCE MINISTRIES*

Some of the teaching on spiritual warfare proliferating today is biblically sound, but most is of decidedly mixed value.15 Sensationalistic teachings are replacing traditional evangelical doctrine regarding the Christian’s battle with the Devil. Such doctrine always emphasized the protection Christ brings into the life of a believer, the defeat of the Devil by the preaching of the gospel, and the believer’s victory through growth in sanctification. Evangelicals consistently taught that a Christian defeats Satan by submitting to God and resisting satanic temptation. Spiritual warfare was thought of as _moral_ warfare — the armor of God consisting of those moral qualities that the Holy Spirit produces in a believer’s life. The Christian was understood to be “victorious” over Satan by remaining faithful to God despite all satanic oppression and temptation.

There is a grave danger in the syndrome which sees a demon behind every problem in a believer’s life. This mindset obscures our moral responsibility to walk in righteousness, and to “mortify the deeds of the body” (Rom. 8:13). The Bible never identifies sins such as lust, anger, and pride as spirits16 but rather as “deeds of the flesh.” It instructs us to “put them all aside” (Col. 2:8), never to cast them out. If we “walk by the Spirit” we “will not carry out the desire of the flesh” (Gal. 5:16).

Certainly, the demonic realm works in concert with our flesh and serves to exacerbate its desires in an attempt to provoke us to sin. But this is demonic temptation or oppression, not demonic possession. It is an assault from outside that the believer is well equipped to resist and overcome (Eph. 6:10-18).

What about testimonials of Christian lives being made victorious through deliverance ministry? Even as Christians who believe in the erroneous “healing in the Atonement” doctrine might still be healed because they trusted Jesus for their healing, so Christians who learn to trust Jesus for victory over the Devil can experience victory, even if they erroneously believe they were delivered of demons. But we have often found such misinterpreted victory to be fleeting (as in the story of “Carl”), thus leading to a troubling dependence on deliverance ministry.

The teaching that Christians can be *demonized* turns our attention from God to Satan. It can inspire fear in the believer where he or she should experience confidence in Christ As noted, it often makes believers dependent on those with deliv&shy;erance ministries to protect them from demons. It fosters a spiritualistic superstition that distracts the believer from both proclaiming the gospel and from person&shy;al growth in sanctification.

Perhaps the greatest danger lies in its methodology in determining truth. For, as we saw above, those who teach that a Christian can be inhabited by a demon place their experience above the teaching of Scripture and deny the sufficiency of Scripture in the process. Once the church allows subjective experience to replace the objective test of Scripture on one issue, a precedent will be set for future issues. A theological Pandora’s box will have been opened, leading to an epidemic of superstition and doctri&shy;nal deterioration.

We have seen, however, that Scripture never teaches that a Christian can be inhabited by a demon. Nor does it teach that there is any spiritual problem for which a Christian should undergo an exorcism. Therefore, we can confidently rest in the victory Christ has won over the demonic forces and we can trust God’s resources in our battle against the world, the flesh, and the Devil. May God deliver us from this specious and divisive teaching, and may we use our spiritual resources in Christ and retain the sound teaching of our evangelical heritage.

*Brent Grimsley*_ holds the M.Div. from Denver Seminary, where he did extensive research in the New Testament. He currently works at a Christian bookstore in Denver._


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

toinette said:


> I think being saved falls into the "necessary but not sufficient" category




That's what I thought...


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## lady_godiva (Jun 25, 2009)

Mortons said:


> Its not.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you are upset that you are unable to prove the point you feel you had about homosexuality and spirits and redirecting your anger. Please believe I meant no malice or harm to your mother. *I simply pointed out she was not a scholar on which you claim she taught you, which is a more complicated subject to be discussion and teaching to no have a degree in.* How is that wrong of me?


 
The disagreements that me and my mother have had about scripture are numerous because she believes in many of the cultural aspects of Christianity that she has been taught her enter life.  It is only when she visits my church and hears my pastor say what I had already said AND REFERENCE THE BIBLE when he preaches then she believes.


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## MuseofTroy (Jun 25, 2009)

Mortons said:


> As I ponder this I don't think its those of us who ponder, think, research, doubt, go back, read, reread, and truly try our best to grasp Him and the essence his Word to our understanding. Its those who accept and believe any and everything someone says a Christian should that we should be concerned about saving and teaching.
> 
> A thinking and feeling person can always feel out and find a way back to God.


 
I should have done a better job clarifying my position. We all have doubts. I have them as well. Shoot I was struggling with doubt this week about a few issues. However one of the fundamental principles in having a personal relationship with Jesus believes that he is the link to our heavenly father and through him we are redeemed. My belief is that once someone is truly saved, they are striving to be a better person and uplift others so that they too can lead a godly life. The life of a Christian is supposed to be evolving. Once you get saved, my belief is that that individual will strive to do and be better human beings through their actions and thought life.


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## Mortons (Jun 25, 2009)

MuseofTroy said:


> You answer this already but I have to ask again, do you study Christianity for educational/philosophical purposes or are you saved?
> 
> *Someone who is saved wouldn't need to answer that type of question.* Msa I'm not trying to call you out nor am I in the position to question one's salvation but some of your comments make me believe that you aren’t saved. The reason I said this because I was just like you a few years ago before I was saved LOL.
> 
> Nevertheless I'm not going to entertain your question. There are times when a wise man leaves well enough alone. Most of your comments about salvation had no biblical support which shocks me since you even undergone studying Hebrew. As I stated before, back up your statements with facts. If you think you are going to hell that's a burden on your mind. I'm not going to hell and if I happen to be part of the elite few getting into heaven then I feel really awesome.




Do you have anything to say for or to the other Christian woman who was in this thread acting indignantly (not an attribute of a Christian) who also did not have a good grasp of the scriptures yet was determined to come teach on sinking facts. Sometimes the very opposite of what God said? It seems as if the people who ask questions are turned away yet people with false/incorrect witness about the Bible/God get off.

Bringing me back to my first point. As long as its against gays its ok to try to spew or at the very least shrugged off ignored.


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## username12 (Jun 25, 2009)

msa said:


> As my youth pastor says, so many people have such a hard time with the love part that they can't get anywhere near faith.


 
Amen.  Christianity is so easy.  Basically it says love one another, and we can't even get that right  

 And if we don't know what love is, it is defined for us in 1 Corinthians 13

*4*Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. *5*It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. *6*Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. *7*It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres

The message is so simple, yet it's so hard for many. 

Y'all I'm going to bed.  Nice chatting with y'all.


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

MuseofTroy said:


> You answer this already but I have to ask again, do you study Christianity for educational/philosophical purposes or are you saved?
> 
> Someone who is saved wouldn't need to answer that type of question. Msa I'm not trying to call you out nor am I in the position to question one's salvation but some of your comments make me believe that you aren’t saved. The reason I said this because I was just like you a few years ago before I was saved LOL.
> 
> Nevertheless I'm not going to entertain your question. There are times when a wise man leaves well enough alone. Most of your comments about salvation had no biblical support which shocks me since you even undergone studying Hebrew. As I stated before, back up your statements with facts. If you think you are going to hell that's a burden on your mind. I'm not going to hell and if I happen to be part of the elite few getting into heaven then I feel really awesome.




Yup, I'm saved. Not that it counts for much of anything. Saved isn't going to get me into heaven considering some of my actions. I was under the impression that a little more was required.

I think of getting into heaven like trying to get into Les Deux on a Saturday night. Yeah a lot of pretty girls are standing outside hoping to get in and they got all dressed up and put on make up and everything. But the bouncer is only letting in the gorgeous girls, and they are few and far between. 

I'm super glad you are not going to hell. I wish so many other people weren't going.


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

S4LH said:


> Amen.  Christianity is so easy.  Basically it says love one another, and we can't even get that right
> 
> And if we don't know what love is, it is defined for us in 1 Corinthians 13
> 
> ...




And that's the gospel truth!


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## MuseofTroy (Jun 25, 2009)

Mortons said:


> Do you have anything to say for or to the other Christian woman who was in this thread acting indignantly (not an attribute of a Christian) who also did not have a good grasp of the scriptures yet was determined to come teach on sinking facts. Sometimes the very opposite of what God said? It seems as if the people who ask questions are turned away yet people with false/incorrect witness about the Bible/God get off.
> 
> Bringing me back to my first point. As long as its against gays its ok to try to spew or at the very least shrugged off ignored.


 
Morton,

I have an issue with anyone who is spreading false information about the gospel. There are times I've been wrong and thankfully I was corrected of my mistake. A lesson for all of is is that we should approach each other with respect even if we disagree. I had to learn that lesson myself. If you are attending a church that is spreading homophobia then stop going. Stop listening to folks spreading trash. My salvation isn't based on hating other people because of their lifestyle choices. If anything I'm very sympathic towards homosexuals because they have to endure so much hatred from Christians and Non-Christians alike. That doesn't mean I support that lifestyle choices but I dont' treat them differently from a heterosexual person.


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## MuseofTroy (Jun 25, 2009)

S4LH said:


> Amen. Christianity is so easy. Basically it says love one another, and we can't even get that right
> 
> And if we don't know what love is, it is defined for us in 1 Corinthians 13
> 
> ...


 
S4LH that's probably the most difficult thing for peole to do these days. Imagine how better the world would be if we just loved one another. We can't even do that within our own families let alone strangers. Now I'm sad.


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## MA2010 (Jun 25, 2009)

msa said:


> I think God is testing Christians right now....He's going to have  a lot to say about some peoples lack of compassion, love, and ability to prioritize.



I agree.



msa said:


> I'm Christian.
> 
> The limitation I'm referring to is our inability to reason as He does because he only allows us to have basic knowledge (in comparison to what He has). *I think it's interesting that He would give us the "choice" whether to sin or not, but then not give us the ability to completely get rid of the impulses that may cause us to choose "sin" in the first place*. That's not much of a choice, IMO.



I understand you now and I realize that is the daily struggle I chose when my decision to follow Christ was made. You had me thinking "Is MSA no longer Christian"? I totally get you now though. 



MuseofTroy said:


> S4LH that's probably the most difficult thing for peole to do these days. Imagine how better the world would be if we just loved one another. We can't even do that within our own families let alone strangers. Now I'm sad.



Don't be sad MuseOfTroy. Continue to love regardless. You are making entirely too much sense in this thread through girl. Thank you a million times over!!!!


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## ThePerfectScore (Jun 25, 2009)

I do not believe homosexuality is a perversion of human sexuality. Perversions of sexuality, in my opinion, include pedophilia, bestiality, any sexual act that is not consensual between two adults with the mental capacity to be fully aware of the actions in which they are engaging, and the consequences of said actions. Homosexuality does not fit my idea of perversion. I think it is a very sad sad thought that romantic love can be confined to only male and female. Love and lust are such a powerful and beautiful experience of the human reality.

People are born with a rudimentary sexual identity then society shapes what God gave us. I think the confusion about sexuality comes from the disconnect between what a person innately feels within their mind, body, and soul and what society tells them is the correct way to be. When a person’s feelings conflict with their socialization anxiety occurs and this anxiety is why so many people cannot accept themselves for the way God made them. Again, this is only my opinion, but sexuality is on a spectrum and most people fall more in the middle. I doubt anyone is 100% homosexual or 100% heterosexual. Our physiological responses to sexual attraction do not lie. You can consciously say you have never been sexually attracted to the opposite sex, but if I had the time I could clearly prove to you that sexual attraction is not as static as we make it seem.


That ALL Being said.... Y'all give the Devil WAY to much power. Blaming everything on the Devil only increases his power. Sexual Orientation is not a SIN.... it is a way of life! It is an innate feeling that has physiological origins. It is of both mind and body who you are attracted to. God makes no mistakes when he designs a person. So if God made you gay then be gay and do you. If God made you straight, then be straight and do you.  If God make you like it all then be bi and do you. DO NOT LET ANY RELIGION, ANY ORGANIZATION, ANY GOVERNMENT, ANY FRIEND, ANY FAMILY, OR ANY STRANGER tell you that being you is bad.


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## ThePerfectScore (Jun 25, 2009)

Iansan said:


> So how does one get possessed by this gay demon?



You bend over.....


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## msa (Jun 25, 2009)

Manushka said:


> I understand you now and I realize that is the daily struggle I chose when my decision to follow Christ was made. You had me thinking "Is MSA no longer Christian"? I totally get you now though.



LOL, yeah I'm still Christian. I'm just less concerned with the details than I used to be because I'm more aware of some rather large flaws in the whole design.

For now, I'm just trying to love and act in love.


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## chicacanella (Jun 25, 2009)

*It's real. We can go on and on about this all day as to whether some believe it's real or not. But I'm going to pray for everyone on this whole forum.*

*Like I've said before, someone could see someone crawl the walls, levitate, spew green vomitt from their mouth and still say, "Oh, that's not real. Where are the mechanics?"  So, it's obvious that strong prayer is needed, EFFECTUAL AND EARNEST PRAYERS of A RIGHTEOUS MAN/PERSON.*

*Righteous people in Christ Jesus, please pray for the world, that God's will be manifest on earth as it is heaven. I beseech you to pray earnest and effectual prayers. It's serious y'all; like most of us have no idea.*


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## Ramya (Jun 25, 2009)

chicacanella said:


> *It's real. We can go on and on about this all day as to whether some believe it's real or not. But I'm going to pray for everyone on this whole forum.*
> 
> *Like I've said before, someone could see someone crawl the walls, levitate, spew green vomitt from their mouth and still say, "Oh, that's not real. Where are the mechanics?"  So, it's obvious that strong prayer is needed, EFFECTUAL AND EARNEST PRAYERS of A RIGHTEOUS MAN/PERSON.*
> 
> *Righteous people in Christ Jesus, please pray for the world, that God's will be manifest on earth as it is heaven. I beseech you to pray earnest and effectual prayers. It's serious y'all; like most of us have no idea.*



Thank you for speaking the truth. It is real despite what people believe. I've stayed away from this thread because I knew where it was going from the first post but I've seen it and others I know have experienced it.


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## ThePerfectScore (Jun 25, 2009)

chicacanella said:


> *It's real. We can go on and on about this all day as to whether some believe it's real or not. But I'm going to pray for everyone on this whole forum.*
> 
> *Like I've said before, someone could see someone crawl the walls, levitate, spew green vomitt from their mouth and still say, "Oh, that's not real. Where are the mechanics?"  So, it's obvious that strong prayer is needed, EFFECTUAL AND EARNEST PRAYERS of A RIGHTEOUS MAN/PERSON.*
> 
> *Righteous people in Christ Jesus, please pray for the world, that God's will be manifest on earth as it is heaven. I beseech you to pray earnest and effectual prayers. It's serious y'all; like most of us have no idea.*




No offense, but I don't want just anyone praying for me.... Prayer does have power... Not to say that your prayer is not a good prayer, but I'm a little weary of anyone who says, " I will pray for you..."


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## Almaz (Jun 25, 2009)

Oh Brothers Okay goodness. Oh it seems that they are so worried about GAYS well maybe they need to do this ON men who cheat.


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## Nice & Wavy (Jun 25, 2009)

Ramya said:


> Thank you for speaking the truth. It is real despite what people believe. I've stayed away from this thread because I knew where it was going from the first post but I've seen it and others I know have experienced it.


 
OT: Your puff is the bizness!!!


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## TrustMeLove (Jun 25, 2009)

Live...the blessing is on you to to live. 

Living on top of the world.  


HEEY...HEEYYY....


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## chicacanella (Jun 25, 2009)

Ramya said:


> Thank you for speaking the truth. It is real despite what people believe. I've stayed away from this thread because I knew where it was going from the first post but I've seen it and others I know have experienced it.


 
*Well, it's like...when you've seen stuff with your own eyes you'd be very gullable to believe someone else that comes along and tries to convince you it's not real. And gullable is just a nice word but yeah, I'd be gullable to believe it's not real.*

*As I said, I just pray that God's will is manifest on this earth in hearts, minds, spirits, vessels of men as well as their actions.*



ThePerfectScore said:


> No offense, but I don't want just anyone praying for me.... Prayer does have power... Not to say that your prayer is not a good prayer, but I'm a little weary of anyone who says, " I will pray for you..."


 
*Well, I'm glad you understand this. Cause' there is probably some Satanist 500 miles away "praying" for you and guess what; you can't stop them from doing so. You in your own strenth (not be strength, nor by power...) can't stop anyone from chanting curses, speaking curses over your life, sending demonic forces to you either. But if you believe that no weapon formed against you shall prosper, and every tongue that rises up against you in judgment, you shall condemn and this all happens because you are a servant of God and this is your heritage. Your vindication is of Him it comes from Him. Why worry or fret? Yes, the weapon may be formed but to His servants of God it will not prosper/work/be successful/fruitful. And remember "2 Like a fluttering sparrow or a darting swallow, 
       an undeserved curse does not come to rest." Proverbs 26:2*


*And ThePerfectScore, I want to love you as Christ Jesus loves me but really, this whole thing of praying is not about you in the holistic matter of things. Yes, you are very precious but for me to not listen to the commandments of God and not pray for you would be disobedient. I was instructed to pray that God's will be manifested on this earth as it is in heaven and guess what; you are on earth so it's just inclusive that you are included in the prayer.*

*With love,*

*chicacanellaeace_sm:  See, how much I care for you; I even pulled out a new smiley! LOL.*



Almaz said:


> Oh Brothers Okay goodness. Oh it seems that they are so worried about GAYS well maybe they need to do this ON men who cheat.



Almaz, this goes beyond one type of sinner. Sin is sin and there is ALOT of sin that has been repented for but still homes that need to be cleansed. I'm not sure how I feel about casting out demons of people who go right back to the same situation. They are being set up for more demons to come in. Jesus talked about that demon being cast out coming back with 7 more demons even stronger.



Nice & Wavy said:


> OT: Your puff is the bizness!!!



It is cute. I was expecting a puff-puff, like no curl formation but I guess it can be considered a puff. I'm hoping BTK can losen my curls some and make doing my hair a little easier. I can prob. go from 4a/3c to about a 3a/b.


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## SoCalli (Jun 25, 2009)

Qualitee said:


> Crazy?........ really? you have you call someone crazy for not agreeing with you?


 
Crazy is the idea of believing sins equal demons, but that sounds about right too.


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## Almaz (Jun 25, 2009)

Oh Okay



[Almaz, this goes beyond one type of sinner. Sin is sin and there is ALOT of sin that has been repented for but still homes that need to be cleansed. I'm not sure how I feel about casting out demons of people who go right back to the same situation. They are being set up for more demons to come in. Jesus talked about that demon being cast out coming back with 7 more demons even stronger.


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## divya (Jun 25, 2009)

Interesting.  This person may very well be possessed, although the exorcism seems questionable to me. 

However, taking this conversation in another direction...if this person is possessed by a demon and rolling all over the floor - why is this *so similar* to the _supposedly_ "catching the Holy Ghost" in videos such as the one below?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8pWtpOWQ-k&feature=related

I believe that the Holy Spirit is distinct and will always reflect the nature of God revealed in the Scriptures. So my question is, what is really going on in the video?


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## Ramya (Jun 25, 2009)

chicacanella said:


> *Well, it's like...when you've seen stuff with your own eyes you'd be very gullable to believe someone else that comes along and tries to convince you it's not real. And gullable is just a nice word but yeah, I'd be gullable to believe it's not real.*
> 
> 
> 
> It is cute. I was expecting a puff-puff, like no curl formation but I guess it can be considered a puff. I'm hoping BTK can losen my curls some and make doing my hair a little easier. I can prob. go from 4a/3c to about a 3a/b.



Is that what a puff is? LOL I just thought it was when the hair was pulled back like in a almost pony type deal.  It's a 3rd day wash'n'go pulled back with a headband.


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