# Can Believers talk without non-believers interfering?



## MisSweeTiera (Jul 3, 2010)

I don't want to seem bothersome or angry, but it frustrates me that Christians can't seem to have a discussion on here without a non-believer voicing there opinion. When people outside of your religion start quoting off the bible and say we haven't been in constant study and prayer with God like we should be, doubt may set in. And anytime we start to doubt God's word is a bad time. It just upsets me that they have the audacity to try and tell us to discredit what we believe, when their opinions were not needed nor asked. I know this will forever be an ongoing struggle, but babies in Christ really need to be in fellowship with like-minded people, not atheist who've studied the Christian religion here and there and can tell you every reason in the world why we should discredit all we know and believe. I guess, no I know, that's just you know who setting up his traps. 

I was reading this girls blog on here, where her friend feels that we shouldn't follow the rules of the bible because it was written so long ago, of course the first to give their two cents were non-believers and that upset me because I honestly don't feel she was soliciting there response, nor that they should've responded.

I don't believe we as Christians should be hounding non-believers about converting, but living our lives so Godly that they want that peace and that joy that we have, so they seek after our God to obtain it. That being said maybe they should adopt that same belief. Live your atheist, agnostic, or pagan life so whatever, that others may see how happy or at peace you are and want to join you, nobody likes your beliefs or non-beliefs being pushed down their throat. Guess what you don't like it, well neither do we! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't join the conversations of believers expressing your opinion, it's not needed nor desired, and you can count on me not expressing my opinions in your threads no matter how much I want to, if you have not asked for the opinions of a believer.


----------



## Enyo (Jul 4, 2010)

Just saying hello!

To answer your question, people can join in whatever they like as long as it follows forum rules. No one has the right to bar people from conversation. If you want to have Christian-Only conversation, then I would suggest an all-Christian forum. I'm a member of Atheist Nexus, a website that does not allow theists to post. When I want to talk with no Christian interruption, I go there. It seems like you need to find a place where you can do the same. 

Also, be careful in disparaging people's Biblical/Christian education. Many people are against religion because they know it a bit too well. One of the guys who hosts an atheists show I like was clergy for 20 years and has a theology degree. It's not rare. Assuming that folk have only read the Bible "here and there" might be detrimental on your part. I'm being educated by some of the most well-known names in the academic theological community. What about you? 

And for the record, the young lady was grateful for all the polite and respectful responses she received. They gave her something to ponder. Not everyone is looking to have their faith affirmed. Some people actually do want to hear the other side of the coin. There is more to faith than just posting a gaggle of Bible versus (many of which are not even in proper context).


----------



## LatterGlory (Jul 4, 2010)

Php 3:4-9
(4) Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
(5) *Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, *_*of*_* the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;*
(6) Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
(7) But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
(8) Yea doubtless, and I count all things _but_ loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them _but_ dung, that I may win Christ,
(9) And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Act 22:2-3
(2) (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)
(3) I am verily a man _which am_ a Jew, born in Tarsus, _a city_ in Cilicia, *yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, *_*and*_* taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers,* and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.


----------



## Bunny77 (Jul 4, 2010)

MisSweeTiera said:


> I don't want to seem bothersome or angry, but it frustrates me that Christians can't seem to have a discussion on here without a non-believer voicing there opinion. When people outside of your religion start quoting off the bible and say we haven't been in constant study and prayer with God like we should be, doubt may set in. And anytime we start to doubt God's word is a bad time. It just upsets me that they have the audacity to try and tell us to discredit what we believe, when their opinions were not needed nor asked. I know this will forever be an ongoing struggle, but babies in Christ really need to be in fellowship with like-minded people, not atheist who've studied the Christian religion here and there and can tell you every reason in the world why we should discredit all we know and believe. I guess, no I know, that's just you know who setting up his traps.
> 
> I was reading this girls blog on here, where her friend feels that we shouldn't follow the rules of the bible because it was written so long ago, of course the first to give their two cents were non-believers and that upset me because I honestly don't feel she was soliciting there response, nor that they should've responded.
> 
> I don't believe we as Christians should be hounding non-believers about converting, but living our lives so Godly that they want that peace and that joy that we have, so they seek after our God to obtain it. That being said maybe they should adopt that same belief. Live your atheist, agnostic, or pagan life so whatever, that others may see how happy or at peace you are and want to join you, nobody likes your beliefs or non-beliefs being pushed down their throat. Guess what you don't like it, well neither do we! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't join the conversations of believers expressing your opinion, it's not needed nor desired, and you can count on me not expressing my opinions in your threads no matter how much I want to, if you have not asked for the opinions of a believer.



I am a Christian, but honestly, I see more Christians doing what you're describing than non-believers.

I cannot tell you how many times I've been in a Bible study group or something like that, and when it's time for people to share testimonies about situations they encountered over the past week, someone will talk about how they overhead a group of non-believers criticizing Christianity/religion and then they jumped in and witnessed to them.

Everyone claps and says that's wonderful... but I'm thinking, "Uh, those people were not talking to you, they were minding their own business and they did not ask for your input." 

But because we are Christian and are called to evangelize, we act like this is okay when WE do it... but get mad when someone who isn't Christian does the same thing. We think our "audacity" to talk about Christ is wonderful, but how dare someone who doesn't believe show that same "audacity." That's a double standard, as far as I'm concerned. 

If we are strong in our faith, an atheist should not cause us to doubt it. In fact, if one or two atheists cause someone to doubt, then I wonder what the point of being Christian was in the first place if we can't withstand folks questioning us. Is one's faith so weak that a few questions from someone else will cause them to doubt God or the word? I would certainly hope not. If you live in the world, people are going to say all kinds of things and because we live in a free country, you're going to hear the opinions of a lot of people who believe differently from you. That's life. 

I say that the best way to witness is what you said in your last paragraph... live a wonderful, joy-filled and Godly life, and those who are interested in knowing more will seek you out. Sometimes, one's actions are much more powerful witnesses than one's initial words.


----------



## loolalooh (Jul 4, 2010)

I hear your frustration but this is the world in which we live ... on and off the forum.  After all, Satan's mission is to interfere and find his way into our lives.  There are few restrictions.

A nonbeliever will not cause a Christian who's in close relationship with the Lord to doubt.  We can look to Job as an example.  Now for the Christian who is not in "constant study and prayer with God like he/she should be"?  Well that individual should be.  The solution isn't that we avoid or restrict nonbelievers.  The solution is that we believers stay in daily renewal of the mind with the Word.  Babies in Christ should turn to the Bible first and foremost to grow; once they enter the world outside of the Bible (including this forum), everything is fair game.


----------



## Sharpened (Jul 4, 2010)

I do not worry about such things. Why? This is a part of the "baptism by fire" all believers have to go through, baby or not. If you see something wrong, say what needs to be said, pray and trust the Holy Spirit.


----------



## Enyo (Jul 4, 2010)

Vicky7 said:


> Hey Enyo careful you sound a bit like the apostle Paul before God saved him... you know when God got to him He used him to write 2/3rds of the New Testament.



Hi! Well, as I said, I'm not into just firing off random versus without discussing the context of each one, so I will not address your other postings. However, I will say that my Biblical Literature and History class specialized in the letter of Paul, so we talked about that a lot. I question authenticity of some of the Pauline letters due to the changes in the style, inappropriate anachronisms for the time, inconsistent theology, etc. I know the Christian explanations for those things (you've given one in your post), but that's another post.

Judging by your analogy, you are trying to say that all I know are the written laws, but know nothing of the faith and other goodies that the NT is supposed to provide. For some reason Christians always think this and I'm not sure why. To truly understand a religion you have to do more than study words on the page or connect historical dots.


----------



## Guitarhero (Jul 4, 2010)

MisSweeTiera said:


> I don't want to seem bothersome or angry, but it frustrates me that Christians can't seem to have a discussion on here without a non-believer voicing there opinion. When people outside of your religion start quoting off the bible and say we haven't been in constant study and prayer with God like we should be, doubt may set in.
> 
> *I was reading this girls blog on here, where her friend feels that we shouldn't follow the rules of the bible because it was written so long ago, *of course the first to give their two cents were non-believers and that upset me because I honestly don't feel she was soliciting there response, nor that they should've responded.
> 
> *I don't believe we as Christians should be hounding non-believers about converting, but living our lives so Godly that they want that peace and that joy that we have, so they seek after our God to obtain it. *That being said maybe they should adopt that same belief. Live your atheist, agnostic, or pagan life so whatever, that others may see how happy or at peace you are and want to join you, nobody likes your beliefs or non-beliefs being pushed down their throat.



I stopped reading at the last bolded.  If in a blog, that was in the blog section.  All people are welcome at LHCF.  Granted, non-christians are not given the same opportunities at a forum as the christians but all in all, people from all walks of life are welcomed here.  I thought you were referring to something happening over here in the CF where someone said you shouldn't believe whatever.  Your valid point is that people should have the same respect they expect of others...but that would also include being able to express their beliefset.


----------



## LatterGlory (Jul 4, 2010)

Enyo said:


> Hi! Well, as I said, I'm not into just firing off random versus without discussing the context of each one, so I will not address your other postings. However, I will say that my Biblical Literature and History class specialized in the letter of Paul, so we talked about that a lot. I question authenticity of some of the Pauline letters due to the changes in the style, inappropriate anachronisms for the time, inconsistent theology, etc. I know the Christian explanations for those things (you've given one in your post), but that's another post.
> 
> *Judging by your analogy, you are trying to say that all I know are the written laws, but know nothing of the faith and other goodies that the NT is supposed to provide. For some reason Christians always think this and I'm not sure why. To truly understand a religion you have to do more than study words on the page or connect historical dots.*


 
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 

Enyo have you ever been healed by God? I don't mean a headache that goes away I am talking having an actual medical condition or disease that required surgery/treatment or one that the doctors could not cure one day and you prayed and were healed the next day?

(By the way thanks you for responding)




I was not forced into salvation I entered of my own volition and vowed to myself that I would never again let a man in a pulpit dictate to me who Christ was. Don't get me wrong I love preaching but people and their flawed logic are not the be all an end all of my relationship with God. So I studied His word for myself found what He required of me.

People I see are still flawed including myself, but it is God that justifies, draws and saves. Some people accept Him some reject Him. As for me Christ has been formed in me I have been baptized in Jesus' name, filled with the Holy Ghost and do my best to live a life outlined in His word to please and serve Him. I have seen a lot of people give up on God when the trials of life come by His grace I am yet holding on.

*"It takes more faith to belive there is not a God than to believe there is."
*


----------



## LifeafterLHCF (Jul 4, 2010)

OP I get what your saying and for me I just keep it moving.I really don't witness to anyone..bc I firmly believe it doesn't help anyone..what does is doing what your suppose to do and let others see that and if it's meant for you to be that witness God or whoever you believe will set that up.

Im a christian sadly it's just the world we live in your job as a christian is not to be concerned about the world and to focus on God's assignment for you..if that is successful then you won't have time to worry about others..just refocus and really stay in deep convo with God..


----------



## Enyo (Jul 5, 2010)

*My Story*



Vicky7 said:


> Enyo have you ever been healed by God? I don't mean a headache that goes away I am talking having an actual medical condition or disease that required surgery/treatment or one that the doctors could not cure one day and you prayed and were healed the next day?




It's funny you should say that because when I was 12, I developed a mood disorder that causes me to have behavioral problems. Because I was never treated it slowly developed into bipolar disorder. During this time I regularly went to the school church (I went to a Catholic school - church was attached to the building) and prayed for God to relieve me of my mental anguish. I received no answer. As my illness got worse, I was called evil and a devil by my family. I was told by religious people that I was possessed. I barely made it out of high school even though I love to learn and I was thrown out of my first college not once but twice because I failed all of my classes. 

Eventually, I turned into a psychotic bipolar (one step below schizo-effective). I wondered around in my pajamas in public and couldn't remember where I lived. I saw shadows and ghosts changing me. I ran into churches once again hoping the "demons" would be too scared to enter a holy place. I was wrong. 

During my last psychotic episode I was hospitalized and properly medicated. Within a month I was normal again. I was accepted into Georgetown University and have kept my GPA above a 3.0 for the last 2 years. I studied the Renaissance in Italy and plan to move to Germany after school is done. If you met me, you would have never guessed I have the past that I do. I don't see where gods ever played a part in me getting my illness under control.  

I don't believe in gods. I believe in science, but I do accept that there are many mysteries that we cannot yet explain. I believe prayer just makes you feel like you are doing something when you have no more options left. It's funny to me how people attribute their sudden relief to gods just because they asked. How do you know you would not have gotten the same result had you not prayed?? 

I just feel that religion is an emotional and psychological crutch. I'm sorry if that causes offense, but that's honestly what I believe. There is a  reason why people become "closer" to gods and seek them out more when  they are unhappy. My life is way better know that I've rejected the concept of supernatural intervention. I'm hanging on and staying sane because I see to it that I take care of myself, not because of an imagined connection to an invisible being. I will admit that it can be difficult when I get stressed, but I believe that it's because I was so reliant on God for so much of my life that some of my emotional muscles are weak. 

I wish you all the best. You seem like a very nice woman.


----------



## LatterGlory (Jul 5, 2010)

Pro 18:19 *A brother offended is harder to be won than a strongcity: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle. *

1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but *try the spirits whether they are of God*: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 
Gal 5:16_This_ I say then,*Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh*. 
Rom 7:25 I thank *God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God;* but with the flesh the law of sin. 


Hos 4:6
(6) My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
However science is not my God nor is it greater than my God.



Mat 11:25-30
(25) At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
(26)Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
(27)All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and_he_to whomsoever the Son will reveal_him._
(28)Come unto me, all_ye_that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
(29)*Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.*
*(30)**For my yoke**is**easy, and my burden is light*.
Enyo if you don't believe in God at least read the Bible for yourself and ask God to open your understanding. From a logical perspective follow *HIS* principles (tithing, loving your enemies, bearing the fruit of the spirit Gal 5:22-23, Eph 5:9 etc.) outlined in the New testament on how to deal with life and people and if you try it and it does not work well leave it be, but if it does work delve a little deeper pray a little more and ask God to open you understanding.
I could type 'til my finger were worn to nubs and not change your perspective, but if God desires you for His kingdom I may just have planted or watered a seed and God will give the increase. All glory and honor belongs to God so don't let man's foolishness get in the way of you knowing Him.

1Co 3:6 *I have planted, Apollos watered*; but God gave the increase.


----------



## Guitarhero (Jul 5, 2010)

*Re: My Story*



Enyo said:


> I don't believe in gods. I believe in science, but I do accept that there are many mysteries that we cannot yet explain. I believe prayer just makes you feel like you are doing something when you have no more options left. It's funny to me how people attribute their sudden relief to gods just because they asked. How do you know you would not have gotten the same result had you not prayed??
> 
> *I just feel that religion is an emotional and psychological crutch.* I'm sorry if that causes offense, but that's honestly what I believe. *There is a  reason why people become "closer" to gods and seek them out more when  they are unhappy.* My life is way better know that I've rejected the concept of supernatural intervention. I'm hanging on and staying sane because I see to it that I take care of myself, not because of an imagined connection to an invisible being. I will admit that it can be difficult when I get stressed, but I believe that it's because I was so reliant on God for so much of my life that some of my emotional muscles are weak.
> 
> I wish you all the best. You seem like a very nice woman.



I absolutely respect your opinion (and it's not new to me, neither is it offensive).  Either per the bolded, "yes," or that whether happy or not, that empty space within where only God fits has been found.  For me, we were raised on God and He wasn't always called by a biblical name but something else.  So, it's not necessarily a 100% judeo-christian viewpoint of God that I have but I do know that He is in my life - not for the way that He is presented in most christianity (a crying lacking soul afraid of hell etc.) but because this is the order of things from the divine to created nature.  We've always known Him.  In other words, there are people of a different perspective who haven't had a major life crisis and now have come running to find solace.


----------



## Enyo (Jul 5, 2010)

Vicky7 said:


> Enyo if you don't believe in God at least read the Bible for yourself and ask God to open your understanding. From a logical perspective follow *HIS* principles (tithing, loving your enemies, bearing the fruit of the spirit Gal 5:22-23, Eph 5:9 etc.) outlined in the New testament on how to deal with life and people and if you try it and it does not work well leave it be, but if it does work delve a little deeper pray a little more and ask God to open you understanding.



Asking an atheist to pray is a bit like asking someone to seek wisdom from Albus Dumbledore (patriarch of the Harry Potter series). If I don't believe gods are real, then how can I possibly ask one for anything? For me, I'm just talking to air - and will probably feel ludicrous doing it. 

As for the Bible, well, reading religious texts assisted me in becoming an atheist. In fact, the more I study the Bible, the firmer I am in my disbelief. I have read it cover to cover twice. I have read it alone, with those that sought to indoctrinate me, and those who wished to educate me. The difference between you and me is that I am no longer a seeker. I am not looking for your god. How can I? I do not believe he, or any other gods, truly exist. The Bible is just text, the stories are just fables, and the inspiration that they provide is a powerful psychological effect by certain parts of the brain lighting up. It plays into everyone's desire to be comforted, special, and looked-after.


----------



## kmn1980 (Jul 5, 2010)

Just out of curiosity (I've always wondered this), why is there not a forum for those who believe something other than Christianity on this board?


----------



## Renewed1 (Jul 5, 2010)

Opster,

I think we have to take into account *WHY *non-believers are posting on Christian sites.  Is it to cause strife? Have an intelligent disagreement? etc. Christianity is one of the oldest beliefs around and people will poke fun at it. That's the way of life.

But, in my opinion, it's my job to turn that negativity around. I try to find out the CAUSE (the root) of the meddling (or whatever). I listen, pray and talk to those individuals. Sometimes, it works sometimes it doesn't. 

ENYO: Although, you are a non-believer, thank you for respecting the CT forum. Even though, I don't fully agree with your opinion. You expressed yourself intelligently and with a humble spirit. Enjoy your week, lady!


----------



## Renewed1 (Jul 5, 2010)

kmn1980 said:


> Just out of curiosity (I've always wondered this), why is there not a forum for those who believe something other than Christianity on this board?


 

Because the owner of the forum is a Christian.


----------



## kmn1980 (Jul 5, 2010)

Changed said:


> Because the owner of the forum is a Christian.



Oh, okay. Thanks.


----------



## LatterGlory (Jul 5, 2010)

__________________________


----------



## aribell (Jul 6, 2010)

*Re: My Story*



Enyo said:


> I just feel that religion is an emotional and psychological crutch. I'm sorry if that causes offense, but that's honestly what I believe.


 
I don't understand how people can have a judgment about the nature of religious experience and belief for every person that currently believes and has ever believed in any god whatsoever, in the whole history of man.  I think that such a judgment is offensive to the extent that it makes an inherent assumption about someone else's faith that one could not possibly know without actually talking to them and taking the time to understand.  If the only thing that you can see in religion or sacred texts is a psychological crutch, then it is what it is.  But to say that that's all anyone else is seeing in them is presumption.

Sorry, that's a pet peeve of mine.


----------



## SND411 (Jul 6, 2010)

I have heard almost every atheist argument known to man. LOL. My faith aint going nowhere.


----------



## loolalooh (Jul 6, 2010)

*Re: My Story*



Enyo said:


> It's funny you should say that because when I was 12, I developed a mood disorder that causes me to have behavioral problems. Because I was never treated it slowly developed into bipolar disorder. During this time I regularly went to the school church (I went to a Catholic school - church was attached to the building) and prayed for God to relieve me of my mental anguish. I received no answer. As my illness got worse, I was called evil and a devil by my family. I was told by religious people that I was possessed. I barely made it out of high school even though I love to learn and I was thrown out of my first college not once but twice because I failed all of my classes.
> 
> Eventually, I turned into a psychotic bipolar (one step below schizo-effective). I wondered around in my pajamas in public and couldn't remember where I lived. I saw shadows and ghosts changing me. *I ran into churches once again hoping the "demons" would be too scared to enter a holy place. I was wrong. *
> 
> ...


 
Thank you for sharing your story.  Just as science has healed you of your mental disorder, Christianity has healed others of their mental disorder.  You turned to the church and found nothing.  The moment you turned to science (medication) you found healing.  Now here's the story of someone I know: she turned to psychologists, psychiatrists, medication, group therapy, anger management, and more only to find nothing.  However, the moment she turned to God, she was healed.  If the Bible is her "psychological crutch", who's to say medication isn't your "psychological crutch"?

I say all this to state that yes, for some (not all) believers, Christianity is a "crutch" of some sort.  An appropriate crutch.  A support.  Something sturdy to lean on.  After all, we are taught to lean on God and "lean not on your own understanding" (Prov. 3:5).  Trust in Him for healing.  Turn to Him with one's broken heart.  Seek Him in time of trouble.  Ideally, believers seek/acknowledge the Lord in the good times and not just the bad.  However, our faith is most tested when we can rely on nothing or noone but Him (i.e., the really bad times).  No offense taken here.  No shame here.


----------



## Enyo (Jul 6, 2010)

*Re: My Story*



loolalooh said:


> If the Bible is her "psychological crutch", who's to say medication isn't your "psychological crutch"?



In order for a psychological crutch to work, you have to have faith in it. Without a belief in it's efficacy or truth, it has no power. If you became an atheist today then the love or whatever else you feel while practicing religion would be gone. However, I could become a Scientologist right now stop believing in meds, but they will still continue to work as long as I took them. I don't believe for a second that anyone can't live without God. I don't believe horrible things would happened if folks stopped believing. You would find new and logical ways to deal with the same trials that everyone deals with. You don't need God. You have just convinced yourself that you do. 

There is no known way for me to prevent psychotic episodes since it's chemical and can only be controlled by medications. *Psychiatric medications are not psychological, they are pharmacological, meaning they are based on hard science.* I really don't see any similarity between someone who goes to church and someone who has a well-known, well-studied, well-accepted medical condition that requires medication and hospitalizations. If I was on blood pressure medication or insulin, would you say that I was using them as a crutch? I'm sorry, but I just don't see how taking care of a medical condition is using a crutch.


----------



## loolalooh (Jul 6, 2010)

*Re: My Story*



Enyo said:


> In order for a psychological crutch to work, you have to have faith in it. Without a belief in it's efficacy or truth, it has no power. If you became an atheist today then the love or whatever else you feel while practicing religion would be gone. However, I could become a *Scientologist right now stop believing in meds, but they will still continue to work as long as I took them.* I don't believe for a second that anyone can't live without God. I don't believe horrible things would happened if folks stopped believing. You would find new and logical ways to deal with the same trials that everyone deals with. You don't need God. You have just convinced yourself that you do.



There is the fact that, for some conditions, doctors encourage their patients to believe in the effectiveness of a medicine or treatment in order for it to work better or work at all.  Without that belief, the medicine becomes less effective or even ineffective.

That being said, it is not always the case that if "one stops believing in meds, they will still continue to work".  This is especially true in mental disorders, which aren't always medical disorders.




Enyo said:


> There is no known way for me to prevent psychotic episodes since it's chemical and can only be controlled by medications. *Psychiatric medications are not psychological, they are pharmacological, meaning they are based on hard science.* I really don't see any similarity between someone who goes to church and someone who has a well-known, well-studied, well-accepted medical condition that requires medication and hospitalizations. If I was on blood pressure medication or insulin, would you say that I was using them as a crutch? I'm sorry, but I just don't see how taking care of a medical condition is using a crutch.



At the bolded: some psychiatric medications are in fact psychological (and some are pharmacological).  If that weren't the case, why do psychiatrists bother prescribing SSRI's to patients who do not have low serotonin levels?  It is done in hopes that it actually works somehow for the patient.  As a matter of fact, an SSRI may help one person improve while pushing another person to suicide.

I'm totally with you on the blood pressure topic, because that is in fact a medical condition.  Mental disorders are another arena though; a very debatable arena.  You say purely medical. I say largely spiritual and few medical.  Another person - believer or not - may say we're both crazy ... it's neither medical or spiritual but all in the person's head.


----------



## loolalooh (Jul 6, 2010)

I'll end on this note and leave this topic alone.  It is something I touched on before.  Enyo, just as you've found healing with medication, there are some who've found healing with Christ.  There are some who turned to medicine for a cure to their cancer or depression only to find nothing.  However, the second they had faith in God, they were healed.  Tumors have vanished without a medical explanation.  Mental disorders have vanished without a psychological explanation.  Etc.  Science isn't always the cure to a medical, or seemingly medical, situation.


----------



## Zeal (Jul 7, 2010)

Bowing out gracefully.  There is no such thing as atheist. LOL!  How can one not believe in something or someone that does not exist.


----------



## Enyo (Jul 7, 2010)

*Re: My Story*



loolalooh said:


> There is the fact that, for some conditions, doctors encourage their patients to believe in the effectiveness of a medicine or treatment in order for it to work better or work at all.  Without that belief, the medicine becomes less effective or even ineffective.
> 
> That being said, it is not always the case that if "one stops believing in meds, they will still continue to work".  This is especially true in mental disorders, which aren't always medical disorders.
> 
> ...



I know nothing about SSRI's because I can't take them. They make my manic episodes even worse. I take anti-psychotics and mood stabilizers. I am only speaking about what I know which is bipolar disorder with or without psychotic features and the medications and medical science that goes a long with them.

I will also not attempt to convince you that bipolar is an actual medical condition. While I am a huge advocate for mental health, it's very trying to go into all of that. Some people choose to believe that I'm not really sick and that my illness is simply make believe or can be prayed away. That's their choice. It bothers me, but it's very typical falsehood and simply cannot be fully addressed each time I hear it. But I feel sorry for everyone who truly feels that they have spiritual issues and seek church instead of proper medical treatment. If I thought Hell was real, I'd testify as having been there. Because my life before I dropped God and found medical science was truly that - Hell. 

In my humble opinion, this is just one more example of how superstition hurts people. If I hear one more person in my support group cry over how much time they lost to church, pastors, priests, and imams and other know-nothings, I'm going to burst. They were so convinced, as I was, that they were just one prayer or blessing away from being "cured". So, so sad. I'm so glad I wised up and realized that magic words and an archaic text could not heal me. 

And with that I'll bow out. I've had enough dogma for the week.


----------



## Enyo (Jul 7, 2010)

Zeal said:


> Bowing out gracefully.  There is no such thing as atheist. LOL!  How can one not believe in something or someone that does not exist.



Wowzers.


*a·the·ism –noun*


1. the  doctrine  or  belief  that  there  is  no  god. 
2. disbelief  in  the  existence  of  a  supreme  being  or  beings.

What about that is hard to understand? I really don't get how it's a difficult thing to grasp. We don't believe gods are real. That's what makes us atheists. erplexed


----------



## SND411 (Jul 7, 2010)

The problem is many people go into religion with the mindset, "What Can *I* get out of this." When that happens, of course it's going to turn to ruins. Christianity is all about being a servant and asking what "can *I DO FOR OTHERS*." If only more Christians thought this way....

So no, Christianity, or any "religion" for that matter may never be the "cure all" to your problems. But it is about the struggle through those problems despite the whole world against you and loving your neighbors as yourself. Maybe if trying to help others find peace, you may find peace yourself.


----------



## Zeal (Jul 7, 2010)

Wowzers?  

I guess you don't believe in a sense of humor either?

We don't belive in *gods* either.  We believe in God.  The Father, The Son, and Holy Spirit.

I don't believe in religion.  I believe in a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.

No matter what I am going through, what I think, how I feel.....  God is God.  He is sovereign... and for real.... he owes me no explanation for what he does, or how he chooses to get it done. I know that he loves me... and yes... having a relationship with Jesus Christ is about me being a servant. Not about, "What have you done for me lately?" 

From what I have read the ladies have given you good word/advice.
It is up to you to make a choice.

*Choose ye this day who you will serve*.

I am grabbing my pearls, shaking the dust from my feet, and bouncing.  

DUECES!





Enyo said:


> Wowzers.
> 
> 
> *a·the·ism –noun*
> ...


----------



## nathansgirl1908 (Jul 15, 2010)

*Re: My Story*



loolalooh said:


> Thank you for sharing your story.  Just as science has healed you of your mental disorder, Christianity has healed others of their mental disorder.  You turned to the church and found nothing.  The moment you turned to science (medication) you found healing.  Now here's the story of someone I know: she turned to psychologists, psychiatrists, medication, group therapy, anger management, and more only to find nothing.  However, the moment she turned to God, she was healed.  If the Bible is her "psychological crutch", who's to say medication isn't your "psychological crutch"?
> 
> I say all this to state that yes, for some (not all) believers, Christianity is a "crutch" of some sort.  An appropriate crutch.  A support.  Something sturdy to lean on.  After all, we are taught to lean on God and "lean not on your own understanding" (Prov. 3:5).  Trust in Him for healing.  Turn to Him with one's broken heart.  Seek Him in time of trouble.  Ideally, believers seek/acknowledge the Lord in the good times and not just the bad.  However, our faith is most tested when we can rely on nothing or noone but Him (i.e., the really bad times).  No offense taken here.  No shame here.



Great post!

I want to add that while some believe that God did not heal them, but instead it was science, GOD is the reason these doctors and scientists have the knowledge to create medication to help us with our illnesses.


----------



## nathansgirl1908 (Jul 15, 2010)

Changed said:


> Opster,
> 
> I think we have to take into account *WHY *non-believers are posting on Christian sites.  *Is it to cause strife?* Have an intelligent disagreement? etc. Christianity is one of the oldest beliefs around and people will poke fun at it. That's the way of life.
> 
> !



I believe it is the part in bold.  After all, that is how the enemy operates.  he works to create strife among believers so they will fall so to speak. he wants to create doubt in our minds.  

I totally understand where the OP is coming from. I have experienced that quite a bit.  However, when it happens, I typically walk away and leave the nonbeliever arguing with himself/herself or the group of people who stayed. I just don't bother.  Nothing they say will change my mind and conversations along those lines get dull quickly.  The argument for unbelief is always along the same lines.  And I have learned that most of it stems from hurt and anger.


----------



## Lenee925 (Jul 20, 2010)

As someone who avoids posting the in the CF for various reasons, I can see how it may be a bit irritating to have non-believers posting and derailing some topics. On the other hand, as long as everyone is respectful I think that some of the arguments can help others to sharpen their theology and apologetics.


----------

