# Is being in a fraternity or sorority against Christianity?!?



## SimplyBlessed (Sep 19, 2009)

Just curious...this has been a ?? I have had in my head for a long time and someone I know just recently brought it to the light....

Thanks ladies!!


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## janaq2003 (Sep 19, 2009)

We'll for me it is ill advised. I don't know what all is involved in membership but you should'nt vow/pledge allegiance to no one/thing except our creator. No offense to anyone.


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## SimplyBlessed (Sep 19, 2009)

janaq2003 said:


> We'll for me it is ill advised. I don't know what all is involved in membership but you should'nt vow/pledge allegiance to no one/thing except our creator. No offense to anyone.


 
I think that is true...I once thought about it but didn't decide to join...but I have soo many friends that are involved in one...


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## Prudent1 (Sep 19, 2009)

I don't think in and of itself sororities are against Christianity. However, they like any other thing can become little gods in our lives if we are not careful. Some of the activities many ppl engage in while participating in sorority activities are definitely not godly. So that has to be kept in mind too. Many ppl like the camaraderie and view membership as validation and a rite of passage of sorts. That's fine too I think since it is God who created us with our gregarious nature. I think the thing to remember is nothing can have 1st place in our hearts besides God. BTW, I opted out of pledging when I was in college b/c I was more mature than a lot of the other girls there at the time. A lot of the activities that were fun to them I could see the later ramifications of.
beer2:ver18:
Pretty much everyone else in my family (males too) pledged something or the other.  In proper context I think they can be fun.


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## delitefulmane (Sep 19, 2009)

Prudent1 said:


> I don't think in and of itself sororities are against Christianity. However, they like any other thing can become little gods in our lives if we are not careful. Some of the activities many ppl engage in while participating in sorority activities are definitely not godly. So that has to be kept in mind too. Many ppl like the camaraderie and view membership as validation and a rite of passage of sorts. That's fine too I think since it is God who created us with our gregarious nature. I think the thing to remember is nothing can have 1st place in our hearts besides God. BTW, I opted out of pledging when I was in college b/c I was more mature than a lot of the other girls there at the time. A lot of the activities that were fun to them I could see the later ramifications of.
> beer2:ver18:
> Pretty much everyone else in my family (males too) pledged something or the other.  In proper context I think they can be fun.


 

I agree with Prudent when she said "nothing can have the 1st place in our hearts besides God." I asked this question before I became a memeber of my sorority as well. I even started a thread because I was leery like you. Check if you don't believe me. Now that I am a member, I can honestly say that I have not had to do anything that has made me question my faith in God! However, there are some people in any organization that make idols out of their organizations. As long as you continue to honor God, I dont think you have a problem. 
IMHO


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## goldielocs (Sep 20, 2009)

^^^^ I totally agree with you and Prudent,

When I joined my sorority, I was disappointed with the number of my sorors who put our organization in front of God, but's about personal choice. I enjoy my time with my sorors, but like so many other things in life- God comes first.

Peace and blessings.


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## Princess4real (Sep 20, 2009)

delitefulmane said:


> I agree with Prudent when she said "nothing can have the 1st place in our hearts besides God." I asked this question before I became a memeber of my sorority as well. I even started a thread because I was leery like you. Check if you don't believe me. Now that I am a member, *I can honestly say that I have not had to do anything that has made me question my faith in God!* However, there are some people in any organization that make idols out of their organizations. As long as you continue to honor God, I dont think you have a problem.
> IMHO


 
Good post and I agree!


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## discobiscuits (Sep 21, 2009)

to hear my Que pastor tell it, it is.


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## Nefertiti0906 (Sep 21, 2009)

1star said:


> to hear my Que pastor tell it, it is.


 
How so, what did your pastor say?


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## Reminiscing (Sep 21, 2009)

Another sorority member checking in...

I joined a sorority while I was in undergrad and I can confidently say that it did not interfere with my relationship with God. I feel that I was blessed because at the time that I expressed my interest the ladies in the chapter brought up the subject of God and religion with me.  I grew up in a pentecostal church and I was known on campus as the church girl (it was obvious from the way I dressed).  The ladies wanted to reassure me that they wouldn't do anything to make me go against my beliefs so they asked me if there were any activities and events they held that I felt I wouldn't be able to attend.  And when I told them my only concern really is the parties, would I be required to go, they said of course not.  Parties are just how we raise money, it's not what we're about.  So I joined and asked God to help me keep him first in my life.  The ladies in my chapter lived up to their word.  I was never asked to choose between God and my sorority.  We even went to church together a few times.  And I've even prayed, sang hymns and preached a message at our events before.  

That was my experience from the start and up until now.  There are ministers, pastors, choir directors and load of church members in my grad chapter now.  Your choice to join an organization is between you and God.  You have to know that you're strong enough and rooted in his Word enough to be able to withstand the temptation because I won't lie, the temptation is there to go to all the parties, throw up your sign and stroll around the room but you have to be strong enough to determine your level of involvement.  I did go to a few parties but I never crossed any boundaries and I never let it consume me.  I joined my sophomore year and when I graduated I was still know as the church girl.  God was seen in me before my letters were seen.

Even though I did stray from God for a few years after I graduated from college, it was my job that caused it, not my sorority.  I became so consumed with trying to network and climb the ladder that I started drinking "socially" and working on Sundays and before I knew it I was only going to church about once a month.  You see anything you put first can make you lose sight of God, not just a sorority or any other organization.  But, thank God I found my way back and he's back to being first in my life!

I pray that with God's guidance you make the decision that works best for your relationship with Him!


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## msa (Sep 21, 2009)

Funny story...during my process in one of the first meetings the chapter president sat us down and let us know that "no this sorority does not worship the devil or any idols...God is first and foremost in all of our lives and many of us joined because the sorority is based on Christian principles". 

So that pretty much cleared up any concern I had. It's never been a problem for me. It's just a part of my life, like work, school, and everything else.


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## discobiscuits (Sep 21, 2009)

Nefertiti0906 said:


> How so, what did your pastor say?



he said that all secret organizations are of the devil and are satanic. he said that any organization that requires an oath and/or pledge of secrecy (keeping the internal things of the org private from non-members) is demonic. he said that they go against god's word which is sinful & that ppl can't serve two masters. that's all i remember. he denounces all "secret" orgs, GLO orgs even the one he used to belong to.

secret = exclusionary orgs where members have to go through some type of initiation, take a pledge or oath (including keeping loyal and true to the org) and keep all org related stuff secret from non-members.


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## Supervixen (Sep 21, 2009)

My chapter often prays before our meeting begins.  Alot of chapters even meet at churches.  There is NOTHING ungodly about the premise, now some of the members...


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## SimplyBlessed (Sep 21, 2009)

1star said:


> he said that all secret organizations are of the devil and are satanic. he said that any organization that requires an oath and/or pledge of secrecy (keeping the internal things of the org private from non-members) is demonic. he said that they go against god's word which is sinful & that ppl can't serve two masters.


 
That's the whole reason I started this thread...in addition to that...the symbols and what not I heard are not...idk well I just heard some negative things...

Let me clear this up as well..I do not mean to offend ANYBODY LOL I was actually thinking of joinging a soro but changed my mind sooo no this is not a thread trying to call anybody out...


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## Supervixen (Sep 21, 2009)

1star said:


> he said that all secret organizations are of the devil and are satanic. he said that any organization that requires an oath and/or pledge of secrecy (keeping the internal things of the org private from non-members) is demonic. he said that they go against god's word which is sinful & that ppl can't serve two masters. that's all i remember. he denounces all "secret" orgs, GLO orgs even the one he used to belong to.
> 
> secret = exclusionary orgs where members have to go through some type of initiation, take a pledge or oath (including keeping loyal and true to the org) and keep all org related stuff secret from non-members.


 
Interesting.  I just don't agree though.


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## discobiscuits (Sep 21, 2009)

Cyd Chicago said:


> Interesting.  I just don't agree though.


i neither agree nor disagree. he would know better than i. i just took it as his opinion based on his personal knowledge and intimate experience with both Omega and Jesus Christ. for him, Jesus won.

i would gladly dispose of an organization that cannot save my soul regardless of if they are satanic or demonic or 100% not. 

when in doubt leave it out/get out.



SimplyBlessed said:


> That's the whole reason I started this thread...in addition to that...the symbols and what not I heard are not...idk well I just heard some negative things...
> 
> Let me clear this up as well..I do not mean to offend ANYBODY LOL I was actually thinking of joinging a soro but changed my mind sooo no this is not a thread trying to call anybody out...


i hope your decision was out of your own research, beliefs and experience and most of all prayer and seeking God's face on what He would approve of.

i'm happy that you are comfortable with your decision.


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## momi (Sep 21, 2009)

1star said:


> i neither agree nor disagree. he would know better than i. i just took it as his opinion based on his personal knowledge and intimate experience with both Omega and Jesus Christ. for him, Jesus won.
> 
> i would gladly dispose of an organization that cannot save my soul regardless of if they are satanic or demonic or 100% not.
> 
> ...


 

 when in doubt leave it out/get out. this is a good principle to apply to life, i can count more than a few times i would have benefited from this.


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## honeyflaava (Sep 21, 2009)

delitefulmane said:


> I agree with Prudent when she said "nothing can have the 1st place in our hearts besides God." I asked this question before I became a memeber of my sorority as well. I even started a thread because I was leery like you. Check if you don't believe me. Now that I am a member, I can honestly say that I have not had to do anything that has made me question my faith in God! *However, there are some people in any organization that make idols out of their organizations.* As long as you continue to honor God, I dont think you have a problem.
> IMHO



     And this is exactly the point at which a Christian’s affiliation with any organization becomes a problem. I don't think that there is anything wrong with a Christian joining a Greek organization, as long as they know who they are and Whose they are and refuse to participate in any activities that are sinful. In my personal experience from what I witnessed while in college, a lot of the people who joined Black Greek organizations did so because they desired the notoriety and distinction that came along with being a member of that fraternity or sorority.  Not that there is anything wrong with joining for those reasons, but people who did join for those particular “perks” were often the ones who made their organization their idol even though they professed to be Christians.  Their mentality seemed to be, “Oh, I’m a Kappa/AKA/Delta/Que and I’m somebody now!” So they devoted all their time, talent, energy, money, and resources to their fraternity/sorority god. 

Perfect example, a male friend of mine I've known since high school. Despite being raised in a Christian home, he has yet to accept who he is in Christ and desperately seeks the attention and praise of the world. Throughout high school and undergrad he struggled with his identity and often assimilated to whomever and whatever he was around. He reminds me of a chameleon. A couple of years ago he joined a graduate chapter of Iota Phi Theta and since then, being an Iota has become his life and identity. He doesn't talk about God, but will talk for hours about his fraternity. Everyone he comes into contact with knows he's an Iota, but most don't know he's a Christian. He’s always wearing Iota jackets and shirts, and if he sees a camera, you can be certain that he will throw up the Iota sign…


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## missann (Sep 21, 2009)

My childhood church taught against belonging to secret societies/lodges/etc.  It's simply not becoming of a Christian - abstain from the very appearance of evil.  

There were two Christian girls at my college who pledged but later wanted out of the sorority.  I don't know the final outcome, but I know their sorors were not amused.  I honestly was perplexed as to why they wanted to pledge in the first place.  Just didn't seem right.


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## Child0fGod (Sep 21, 2009)

SimplyBlessed said:


> Just curious...this has been a ?? I have had in my head for a long time and someone I know just recently brought it to the light....
> 
> Thanks ladies!!





janaq2003 said:


> We'll *for me it is ill advised*. I don't know what all is involved in membership but *you should'nt vow/pledge allegiance to no one/thing except our creator*. No offense to anyone.



precisely.
i almost joined my junior year in college but, JESUS had other plans for me  thank You Lord.

here is a resource for Christians who are interested in joining a sorority/fraternity, etc:

www.dontgogreek.com.

we have hung out with minister hatchett on several occasions. he's even came to my now, alma mater to do a seminar-- whew, it was hostile up in THERE! --all those conflicting beliefs.

it's a good resource and if i have more i'll be sure to share.
God keep you in your quest for truth.


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## Child0fGod (Sep 21, 2009)

1star said:


> to hear *my Que pastor* tell it, it is.



oxymoron there... lol.


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## discobiscuits (Sep 21, 2009)

Child0fGod said:


> oxymoron there... lol.



that's why i put it like that. he has denounced Que and ALL secret societies. however, the saying is "once a ____, always a ____".  there are several ex-BGLO members @ my church & i really feel sorry for the men & women who mutilated themselves with branding. 

i also feel sorry for the ones who are not honest w/ themselves and know that they want to participate w/ their org but don't b/c of what we've been taught. there is this one woman who is/was AKA & she tries her best to do a convincing testimony about getting out but i can see it in her eyes she misses her sorors and whatever else. 

everyone has to make their own choices & they should do so well informed. once they choose they need to make their election sure.


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## msa (Sep 21, 2009)

Child0fGod said:


> precisely.
> i almost joined my junior year in college but, JESUS had other plans for me  thank You Lord.
> 
> here is a resource for Christians who are interested in joining a sorority/fraternity, etc:
> ...



Wow at that website . Steeped in misinformation and some blatant untruths.


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## MyHeavenlyFatherKnows (Sep 21, 2009)

1) The Bible says "walk not in the counsel of the ungodly"---the people you pledge w/--that you bond yourselves to as "family"---are not inherently Godly--they may say they are Christians, but are not necessarily followers of Christ---in many instances, they are just heathens that you are binding yourself to.  The social probabation period is a huge issue for me--as anything I am a part of should be shareable in the light of day AND my only counsel/friendship should not be only whoever is on line with me.

2) You can tell the nature of a thing by the fruit it bears.  While many join to help the world/their community---the most common aspect is partying etc--basically, the most commonly engaged in activities are sinful by design.

3) Reading the websites of GLO's you get the "Tower of Babble" feeling, like men/women are trying to build something by being great men/women...but there is not mention that we are nothing without Christ, and that we can do all things through CHRIST, not (((insert letters here))))).    The Bible says "seek ye first the kingdom of God"---I think GLO's ask you to seek first their tenets--despite the lipservice paid to "most members being Christian".  

I believe one should only be bonded to Christ and to others who are of like spirit.  Junebug from down the hall is not of like spirit, in fact, after a few conversations we might just realize that all Junebug has IS A SPIRIT (demon).  So no, I will keep my interpersonal bonds to those which have been tested against the word of God and over which I have control.


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## myoung (Sep 21, 2009)

MyHeavenlyFatherKnows said:


> 1) The Bible says "walk not in the counsel of the ungodly"---*the people you pledge w/--that you bond yourselves to as "family"---are not inherently Godly--they may say they are Christians, but are not necessarily followers of Christ---in many instances, they are just heathens that you are binding yourself to*. The social probabation period is a huge issue for me--as anything I am a part of should be shareable in the light of day AND my only counsel/friendship should not be only whoever is on line with me.
> 
> 2) You can tell the nature of a thing by the fruit it bears. While many join to help the world/their community---the most common aspect is partying etc--basically, the most commonly engaged in activities are sinful by design.
> 
> ...


 

Wow...Lipservice? I am not sure how you received your point of view but I RESPECTFULLY disagree!!! Despite your beliefs, there are some very spiritual and Godly men and women in the Fraternities and Sororities.


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## msa (Sep 21, 2009)

MyHeavenlyFatherKnows said:


> 1) The Bible says "walk not in the counsel of the ungodly"---the people you pledge w/--that you bond yourselves to as "family"---are not inherently Godly--they may say they are Christians, but are not necessarily followers of Christ---in many instances, they are just heathens that you are binding yourself to.  The social probabation period is a huge issue for me--as anything I am a part of should be shareable in the light of day AND my only counsel/friendship should not be only whoever is on line with me.



Just as people in your natural family are not "inherently Godly" (and no one is, except for Jesus Christ), those in my sorority family are not that either. They are HUMAN, sinners with their own faults, just as I have mine. 

Folks bind themselves to churches all day every day that are filled with "heathens" and run by "heathens", so let's not start to nitpick and judge folks we don't even know.

Also, I'm not even going to address the "social probation period" because everyone has their misconceptions about that. I will say this, when you first became a Christian, didn't you want to learn everything about it? spend time with your bible? fellowship with other believers? My sorority is not a religion, but the same principle applies. If you choose to join an almost century old organization it takes time and focus to learn everything about it.



> 2) You can tell the nature of a thing by the fruit it bears.  While many join to help the world/their community---the most common aspect is partying etc--basically, the most commonly engaged in activities are sinful by design.



It's interesting that people only look at the parties and the stepping as "fruit" of BGLO's when we do far more community service as chapters than most churches do. Check the history and current activities. 

The most common activity I engaged in before becoming a member and since becoming a member has been community service. Just like a non-affiliated college student/grad student can choose to go to the club all the time or to go feed the homeless, so can a sorority/fraternity member.



> 3) Reading the websites of GLO's you get the "Tower of Babble" feeling, like men/women are trying to build something by being great men/women...*but there is not mention that we are nothing without Christ, and that we can do all things through CHRIST, *not (((insert letters here))))).    The Bible says "seek ye first the kingdom of God"--*-I think GLO's ask you to seek first their tenets-*-despite the lipservice paid to "most members being Christian".



Delta does not come before God in any shape, fashion, form, or circumstance. In fact, membership in my sorority only helps me to do God's work that much more efficiently. I am not who I am because of Delta, I am who I am because of God and neither myself, nor my sorors (ooo-oop!) would have it any other way.


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## goldielocs (Sep 21, 2009)

msa said:


> Just as people in your natural family are not "inherently Godly" (and no one is, except for Jesus Christ), those in my sorority family are not that either. They are HUMAN, sinners with their own faults, just as I have mine.
> 
> Folks bind themselves to churches all day every day that are filled with "heathens" and run by "heathens", so let's not start to nitpick and judge folks we don't even know.
> 
> ...




Thanks Soror!!! I could not have said it any better.


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## prettynatural (Sep 21, 2009)

Being in a sorority is no more "wrong" than being in a professional association or any other civic group. I tell people, the organization is what you make it, if you don't do nothing, you don't get nothing out of it. There are a few "first ladies" and they do service in their church ministeries as well as the sorority. You can  have balance.


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## Vonnieluvs08 (Sep 22, 2009)

msa said:


> Just as people in your natural family are not "inherently Godly" (and no one is, except for Jesus Christ), those in my sorority family are not that either. They are HUMAN, sinners with their own faults, just as I have mine.
> 
> Folks bind themselves to churches all day every day that are filled with "heathens" and run by "heathens", so let's not start to nitpick and judge folks we don't even know.
> 
> ...


 
ITA with this post.  

I have family members that only see the inside of a church for special occasions and the rest of the time are out in the streets doing who knows what, but I still love them because they are my family.  My Line Sisters are the same way, some of them do things I don't do or are trying to phase out of my life but they were there with me (as well as God) when my life took some unforunate turns.  My new church family is the same way.  I am closer to those who are like minded in the walk with Christ.  Our sorority weeks when i was in undergrad started and ended in Church because we new he was the Alpha and Omega of our lives before the Sorority.

I joined my Sorority (AKA) because they are in service to all mankind.  They have given me an outlet to show how Christ is working in my life through community service.  My chapter (both undergrad and grad) do more community service and outreach then anything else.  The whole conception of Sorority/Fraternity life being about partying is an undergrad thing and some chapters value partying more than others but that is not the whole of BLGO. Does my sorority hold events that have music and fellowship yes! but it's wholesome and you can chose to partake in those events or not.  And as a previous poster said the parties are just a form of fundraising that allow us to further our community service.  If either of my chapters were just about partying and showing off their letter then I wouldn't have joined.

My Sorority has never come before anything else in my life (God, School, work, family).  AKA has been an outlet for helping others and therefore furthering God's plan in my life and from the bible.  I hope now that i have become a better Christian my efforts in AKA will reflect the light of God in me and therefore bring people to Christ and not to AKA.

My question would be are Masons and OES included in this discussion?  Esp in relation to the post by the lady with the Que pastor (sorry I don't remember your name).  

Also I think that there are some BGLO (or chapters within those) that are more idolistic then others but I am not one to judge.  If anything you should be mad at the WGLO who aren't founded on Christian principles and don't do community service for real and all they do is drink and party and sport their letters as their God.


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## Princess4real (Sep 22, 2009)

msa said:


> Just as people in your natural family are not "inherently Godly" (and no one is, except for Jesus Christ), those in my sorority family are not that either. They are HUMAN, sinners with their own faults, just as I have mine.
> 
> Folks bind themselves to churches all day every day that are filled with "heathens" and run by "heathens", so let's not start to nitpick and judge folks we don't even know.
> 
> ...


 
*OOO-OOP* Soror *OOO-OOP*! Good post!!! :woohoo:


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## Reminiscing (Sep 22, 2009)

Thanks Soror Vonnieluvs08 for your wonderful post and thanks to the fellow greek sisters who shared their points of view as well.  This all boils down to you'll never understand it unless you are greek.  There will always be misconceptions about what we do, but there are misconceptions in everything.  I can give a married woman advice until I'm blue in the face but I'll never understand what's she's going through until I get married.  The fact that the non-greeks posting here do not understand what we do doesn't bother me, it's the judgment that seems to go along with it.  You tell us that the organizations we belong to are "ungodly" but for you to compare it to walking with the enemy is simply "ungodly" as well.  Am I any less of a Christian than you because I wear letters and you don't?  Do you truly know my heart?  Do you know what relationship I have with God?

As I said in my first post, a decision to join an organization is between you and God and no one else.  God did say "walk not in the counsel of the ungodly" but he also did tell us to "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation." (Mark 16:15)  If you cannot be apart of something without putting it before God and falling to all of its temptations then you need to reevaluate your relationship with God, not the organization.  I for one, use AKA as my tool to help others and show them God's love.  Being Greek is not for everyone.  If it's not a tool that God wants you to use, then don't do it but please stop speaking negatively of those who choose to.


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## Child0fGod (Sep 22, 2009)

msa said:


> Wow at that website . Steeped in misinformation and some blatant untruths.



share with us.

ETA:
...oh wait, are you a delta?
that probably explains your disagreeance with the webby 

sorry, but:
www.dontgogreek.com


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## Princess4real (Sep 22, 2009)




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## Child0fGod (Sep 22, 2009)

Reminiscing said:


> Thanks Soror Vonnieluvs08 for your wonderful post and thanks to the fellow greek sisters who shared their points of view as well.  *This all boils down to you'll never understand it unless you are greek. *



even better. 

OP,
everyone else:

let's not go that far to find out. 

www.dontgogreek.com.


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## mst1908 (Sep 22, 2009)

Reminiscing said:


> Another sorority member checking in...
> 
> I joined a sorority while I was in undergrad and I can confidently say that it did not interfere with my relationship with God. I feel that I was blessed because at the time that I expressed my interest the ladies in the chapter brought up the subject of God and religion with me. I grew up in a pentecostal church and I was known on campus as the church girl (it was obvious from the way I dressed). The ladies wanted to reassure me that they wouldn't do anything to make me go against my beliefs so they asked me if there were any activities and events they held that I felt I wouldn't be able to attend. And when I told them my only concern really is the parties, would I be required to go, they said of course not. Parties are just how we raise money, it's not what we're about. So I joined and asked God to help me keep him first in my life. The ladies in my chapter lived up to their word. I was never asked to choose between God and my sorority. We even went to church together a few times. And I've even prayed, sang hymns and preached a message at our events before.
> 
> ...


 

*Beautifully Stated!!!!!*


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## msa (Sep 23, 2009)

Child0fGod said:


> share with us.
> 
> ETA:
> ...oh wait, are you a delta?
> ...




I have many reasons to disagree with the website...

1) It's not professionally presented.

2) The pages from a supposed "Delta candidate manual" are completely fabricated.

3)If the pages from the "candidate manual" were real, it is unethical of someone to post that information to the public when they know those documents are private and not to be distributed outside of the organization. The website also has posted quotes from another sorority document. I understand wanting to prove a point, but if a mere human wants to condemn a whole group of people, then they need to come correct, with no flaws of their own.

And the most important thing: *if someone wants to present to me reasons why membership in a BGLO is against God's Word, then the number one thing I want to see is exactly how that is so, from the bible* *(not from their imagination, opinion, or supposed testimonies).* But instead the link to the "Bible contradictions" is dead.


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## Child0fGod (Sep 23, 2009)

msa said:


> I have many reasons to disagree with the website...
> 
> 1) It's not professionally presented.



that's shallow??
...and almost doesn't require a response 



msa said:


> *it is unethical of someone to post that information to the public when they know those documents are private and not to be distributed outside of the organization.*



??

is it because the truth is finally getting out and people (members) are beginning to denounce your organization? ("greeks" overall) ...



msa said:


> And the most important thing: *if someone wants to present to me reasons why membership in a BGLO is against God's Word, then the number one thing I want to see is exactly how that is so, from the bible* *(not from their imagination, opinion, or supposed testimonies).* But instead the link to the "Bible contradictions" is dead.



you should consider contacting minister hatchett. his phone number is (919) 278-8911 and he's a pretty nice guy, willing to speak with anyone who is interested in hearing his testimony. i encourage you to call him.

www.dontgogreek.com

p.s. here's the discussion board 
http://pub6.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=460887521&frmid=66&msgid=0

ETA:
p.s.s. also a book you can order from amazon.com
"Coming Apart at the Seams" by Fred Hatchett


----------



## Child0fGod (Sep 23, 2009)

*more resources* for women considering pledging these secret societies/sororities:

Gail Gray is an *ex-AKA*. she denounced her organization too because it conflicted with her christian values.

*listen to her podcast here:*
http://gcraige.podbean.com/2006/11/01/ex-cast-episode-11-gail-gray/

she also has a book here:
http://www.yourbook.com/BookInfo/IP14849-05.asp
"Greek-Letter Organizations:Offspring of Abomination" by Gail Gray (ex-Alpha Kappa Alpha member).

ETA:
*PRIASE GOD I FOUND A .PDF OF GAIL'S BOOK!!!*
http://www.yourbook.com/DisplayArea/IP14849-05.pdf

hth
& God keep you on your search for truth,


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## discobiscuits (Sep 23, 2009)

Sorry COG, but that website is a crock.

I dunno, but I'm not down for that site. 

Did I miss something?


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## Child0fGod (Sep 23, 2009)

1star said:


> Sorry COG, but that website is a crock.
> 
> I dunno, but I'm not down for that site.
> 
> Did I miss something?



what did you miss, hun? talk to me


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## discobiscuits (Sep 23, 2009)

Child0fGod said:


> what did you miss, hun? talk to me



no, i'm asking YOU did i miss something...on that site b/c i'm not convinced (by that site).


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## Child0fGod (Sep 23, 2009)

1star said:


> no, i'm asking YOU did i miss something...on that site b/c i'm not convinced (by that site).



oh ok. 
i'm not the one who has to do the convincing, however...


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## Child0fGod (Sep 23, 2009)

1star said:


> no, i'm asking YOU did i miss something...on that site b/c i'm not convinced (by that site).



all i know is that it's a pretty big stronghold.
and, i personally wouldn't want to be tied up to all of that mess.

ETA:
p.s. anyone who listens to Gail's message, she says that it's for the body of Christ. she says it's good to get all of this information (such from the websites i mentioned, etc), but from that we should get revelation. so, it really has to be in someone's heart to want to know Christ.


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## Child0fGod (Sep 23, 2009)

another book/resource:

*New Book Exposing Black Pledge Process*:
Captain of My Soul: A Memoir (Paperback)
by Whitney Gracia Williams (Author) 

http://www.amazon.com/Captain-Soul-...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1250539239&sr=1-1


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## Raspberry (Sep 23, 2009)

Child0fGod said:


> *more resources* for women considering pledging these secret societies/sororities:
> 
> Gail Gray is an *ex-AKA*. she denounced her organization too because it conflicted with her christian values.
> 
> ...



Thanks for this link, what she said was very biblically sound and made a lot of sense.


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## Princess4real (Sep 23, 2009)

Child0fGod said:


> all i know is that it's a pretty big stronghold.
> and, i personally wouldn't want to be tied up to all of that mess.
> 
> ETA:
> p.s. anyone who listens to Gail's message, she says that it's for the body of Christ. she says it's good to get all of this information (such from the websites i mentioned, etc), but from that we should get revelation. so, it really has to be in someone's heart to want to know Christ.



If you have a daughter would you allow her to join the Girl Scouts?


 The Girl Scout PromiseScout Oath


On my honor, I will try:
To serve God* and my country,
To help people at all times,
And to live by the Girl Scout Law.







Are their cookies evil?


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## Child0fGod (Sep 23, 2009)

this looks like a snippet of the gospel tract Gail was talking about:
(from http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0093/0093_01.asp)






*

....


Psalm 51*

  1Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. 
 2Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. 
 3For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. 
 4Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. 
 5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. 
 6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. 
 7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. 
 8Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. 
 9Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 
 10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 
 11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 
 12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. 
 13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee. 
 14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness. 
 15O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise. 
 16For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. 
 17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. 
 18Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem. 
 19Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.


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## discobiscuits (Sep 23, 2009)

what is notable is she her eyes were opened well after AKA even though she grew up in the church. i like how she read the AKA oath of allegiance and compared it to scripture and how it conflicted with God's word. The AKA oath that she took was essentially the bible plagiarized pledging to AKA not God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

she also does no bashing at all. she does not sound bitter. her election is sure.







Child0fGod said:


> *more resources* for women considering pledging these secret societies/sororities:
> 
> Gail Gray is an *ex-AKA*. she denounced her organization too because it conflicted with her christian values.
> 
> ...


----------



## theAlist (Sep 23, 2009)

1star said:


> he said that all secret organizations are of the devil and are satanic. *he said that any organization that requires an oath and/or pledge of secrecy (keeping the internal things of the org private from non-members) is demonic. he said that they go against god's word which is sinful & that ppl can't serve two masters.* that's all i remember. he denounces all "secret" orgs, GLO orgs even the one he used to belong to.
> 
> secret = exclusionary orgs where members have to go through some type of initiation, take a pledge or oath (including keeping loyal and true to the org) and keep all org related stuff secret from non-members.




My dad said the same exact thing to me once he found out I joined a sorority.  And I believe he is right.  I think that's what most Christian sorority members ignore in these type of discussions...the secrecy part.  To say the org is built on Christian values but still have members take an oath of secrecy is...I don't know....I've stopped being active in my sorority until I can figure certain things out.


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## GodsPromises (Sep 23, 2009)

As with many things as Christian to me it is a conscience decision.  For some it's completely wrong for other's as long as you remember who you are it's ok. I am part of the latter.  I do not belong to on now but I will in the future.  I plan on going in as graduate. I have done my homework and I agree with what they stand for.  I work at an HBCU so I know the ins and outs of all of them and what they stand for.  Do I agree with everything no I don't but I also know that they are not bad. It is just like any other group or organization.  It is what you make it.  My son is also interested in joining when he goes to college and yes he has done his research already.  

My suggestion to all who are thinking about it.  Research and pray, research and pray. What God has in mind for me may not be what he has in mind for you.


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## goldielocs (Sep 23, 2009)

COG,

If you don't mind, what church is Min. Hatchett associated with? I went did my undergrad at an HBCU in NC and there was this church not too far from it that did a lot of preaching on this subject.  If you don't want to post it on the thread, feel free to PM me. Thanks.


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## discobiscuits (Sep 23, 2009)

Jermajesty said:


> My dad said the same exact thing to me once he found out I joined a sorority.  And I believe he is right.  I think that's what most Christian sorority members ignore in these type of discussions...the secrecy part.  To say the org is built on Christian values but still have members take an oath of secrecy is...I don't know....I've stopped being active in my sorority until I can figure certain things out.



you may want to listen to her if you haven't
http://gcraige.podbean.com/2006/11/01/ex-cast-episode-11-gail-gray/


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## Nefertiti0906 (Sep 23, 2009)

I think a lot of these examples are extreme.  

For my job, I took a oath and I'm sworn to secrecy, does that mean I'm denying God?

I think not.


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## discobiscuits (Sep 23, 2009)

Nefertiti0906 said:


> I think a lot of these examples are extreme.
> 
> For my job, I took a oath and I'm sworn to secrecy, does that mean I'm denying God?
> 
> I think not.



an oath and secrecy are not the only things that make it ungodly. also oaths and secrecy are not the only indicators of potential ungodliness. 

i too took an oath for my job, i too belong to a fraternal organization, and for my job i also don't share info. none of that is ungodly or sinful or denying God. in fact God affirms my job in the bible so i don't trip.

the issue is the oaths taken. in the organizations that are being called sinful or ungodly or satanic they take oaths that deny Christ or use the Word by changing it or use/have symbols from Egypt (like pyramids or sphinx or ankhs) and Egypt is cursed in the bible and anyone who glorifies it or things of it is cursed.  

in these said orgs, you pledge by oath your mind, body, soul/life to the brother/sisterhood for life above all else.

in the podcast, the woman reads word-for-word the oath she took for her sorority and then read scripture that showed 1. the sorority oath was against the word and 2. that they used some of the word for their purposes.

additionally, some of the orgs use greek or roman gods/goddesses as their mascots and make pledges to them too.

other orgs pledge to grand architect which is lucifer but they don't know that until they get to higher levels in the org. and of course the higher levels are forbidden by oath of secrecy not to disclose that to lower level group members. 

there is so much.

but no, there are some jobs (govt, military etc) that do use oaths or more accurately AFFIRMATIONS for their employees but also some of those govt/military jobs are ordained by God in his word.

those oaths/affirmations are not to some fake god/goddess or organization the oath/affirm is to faithfully carry out the job and uphold the laws of the country that they serve.


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## Child0fGod (Sep 23, 2009)

goldielocs said:


> COG,
> 
> If you don't mind, what church is Min. Hatchett associated with? I went did my undergrad at an HBCU in NC and there was this church not too far from it that did a lot of preaching on this subject.  If you don't want to post it on the thread, feel free to PM me. Thanks.



hi there,

was the church:

Reprove, Rebuke & Restore Ministries, Inc.                    
328 Summit Avenue                       
Raleigh, North Carolina 27603-2352 

919-278-8911

the above is minister hatchett's ministry. hope this helps.​


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## Nefertiti0906 (Sep 23, 2009)

1Star, your post seemed more of your opinion than of facts.  Let's agree to disagree.


----------



## Princess4real (Sep 23, 2009)




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## Child0fGod (Sep 23, 2009)

Jermajesty said:


> My dad said the same exact thing to me once he found out I joined a sorority. And I believe he is right.I think that's what most Christian sorority members ignore in these type of discussions...the secrecy part. To say the org is built on Christian values but still have members take an oath of secrecy is...I don't know....I've stopped being active in my sorority until I can figure certain things out.



here's my current booklist; i plan on getting each book one day or another. i recommend the same for you and anyone else who is seeking clarification on these organizations:


"Greek-Letter      Organizations: Offspring of Abomination" book by Gail Gray
"Coming Apart at the Seams"      book by Minister Fred Hatchett
"The Truth Behind Hip      Hop" book by G. Craige Lewis
"Captain of My Soul: A      Memoir" book by Whitney Gracia Williams

 Gail Gray is an *ex-Alpha Kappa Alpha*, Fred is an *ex-Omega Psi Phi*, and I have a friend who is an *ex-Kappa Alpha Psi*. On Fred's forum/discussion board (dontgogreek discussion board), there are several testimonies of those who have left *Alpha Phi Alpha*. My sister is a *Delta Sigma Theta*, but I'm believing GOD for her renunciation. If you ever need any help finding these books, or need someone to talk to about everything we've been discussing on this board, please don't hesitate to send me a PM or something. I know our LORD Jesus will give you revelation from the words written in these testimonies.

Throughout her testimony, Gail mentions whether or not "people came after her" after she denounced, etc and how God had her personally pack up and move like Abraham. She also mentions how people leave their organization because they have a _conviction_ in their spirit that they cannot ignore (literally cannot ignore)... this is called an unction from the Holy Spirit.

One thing Gail mentions in her podcast that is crucial in understanding God's will for His people getting out of these organizations and NOT joining these organizations is: *"the will of the FLESH" vs. "the will of GOD."* The will of the flesh is powerful. She said that she willed it in her flesh for her to be a member of AKA. And to be careful because people will say "I prayed to the LORD, and that was my answer." (I actually knew an Alpha who told me this, God forgive him and LORD help us get into YOUR will, and OUT of our own).

*Luke 22:42*

 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless *not my will*, but thine, be done.
  Gail encourages us to sincerely and in honesty pray in our hearts the prayer above that JESUS prayed, when asking the LORD Jesus about joining these organizations. All of the fraternities and sororities _associate _themselves_ (oaths of allegiance/secrecy or both)_ with a pagan/false god whether covertly or overtly (she also explains why they say they don't "worship" the god but if you confess it with your mouth through the oaths, it becomes your god whether or not you bow down to it every day). It's a deadly spiritual bond/yoke.

If we let our own fleshly will go, we won't get caught up in these organizations which are displeasing to God our Father because it is not in His heavenly, holy and righteous will.

 Listen to her podcast/TESTIMONY once, twice, three times... as many times as necessary; take notes. I've heard it at least seven times and I thank GOD for the undeniable truth in it (part of Gail's Testimony). Don't forget your other resources including your Bible.

I say, _don't stop seeking the truth_. The LORD Jesus will HONOR your search if your whole heart is in it. God keep you sis and I pray your strength and the strength of those reading this, and your personal continuing desire to please a HOLY GOD.

In Jesus' name, amen.
Mark 1:14-15
Colossians 2:8


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## msa (Sep 23, 2009)

Nefertiti0906 said:


> Your post seemed more of your opinion than of facts.  Let's agree to disagree.




What's funny is, 90% of the arguments against BGLO's are opinions. That always happens when people aren't in possession of the facts and instead have to rely on hearsay. But you're right, agree to disagree.


----------



## Child0fGod (Sep 23, 2009)

msa said 
What's funny is, 90% of the arguments against BGLO's are opinions. That always happens when people aren't in possession of the facts and instead have to rely on hearsay. But you're right, agree to disagree.



Child0fGod said:


> here's my current booklist; i plan on getting each book one day or another. i recommend the same for you and anyone else who is seeking clarification on these organizations:
> 
> 
> "Greek-Letter      Organizations: Offspring of Abomination" book by Gail Gray
> ...


----------



## freshlikemoi (Sep 23, 2009)

As apart of some of the programs we did in undergrad, we would often go to church. For example, "Fellowship with the AKAs". Things like that. So no, I don't believe being apart of a sorority is in any way not putting God first.


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## msa (Sep 23, 2009)

Child0fGod said:


> msa said
> What's funny is, 90% of the arguments against BGLO's are opinions. That always happens when people aren't in possession of the facts and instead have to rely on hearsay. But you're right, agree to disagree.




Have you presented any scriptures yet showing that membership in a greek letter organization is against christianity?

Nope.


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## mswoman (Sep 23, 2009)

msa said:


> Have you presented any scriptures yet showing that membership in a greek letter organization is against christianity?
> 
> Nope.


 

That's true... Anything put before God is a sin. Even putting family before God is a sin. If a person is convicted about the Sorority they joined and the rituals, they should leave. But as for me, my Sorority does not define me.... I think that is what gets it twisted. Many other Sororities do have to bow to a god or something... Mines does not. Even if they asked me to bow I wouldn't do it...


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## msa (Sep 24, 2009)

mswoman said:


> That's true... *Anything put before God is a sin. *This includes family, but my Sorority does not define me.... I think that is what gets it twisted. Many other Sororities do have to bow to a God or something... Mines does not.




Exactly.

I don't know what sorority has to bow to a god, but it's not even about the details of who does what and when. 

Anything, ANYTHING, can be made into your god. Husbands, television, food, school, being on LHCF, condemning other people, etc. etc. etc. Membership in a GLO does not automatically mean you are putting it before God and I don't know why that's so difficult to understand.


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## discobiscuits (Sep 24, 2009)

Nefertiti0906 said:


> Your post seemed more of your opinion than of facts.  Let's agree to disagree.



You are incorrect. 

My post is factual. Anything that you allege is opinion was that of the AKA that I was paraphrasing. 

My post that you quoted was in agreement with your post that I quoted Nefertiti; we were not in disagreement. I have no clue how you arrived at that conclusion.


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## Princess4real (Sep 24, 2009)

msa said:


> What's funny is, 90% of the arguments against BGLO's are opinions. That always happens when people aren't in possession of the facts and instead have to rely on hearsay. But you're right, agree to disagree.


 
Annnd when they weren't able to get into that organization.  I say try again next year, but all the anger and bitterness is pathetic.


----------



## cocoberry10 (Sep 24, 2009)

*  Thanks Prudent1. ANYTHING that takes the number one place over God is against Christianity and against God.*

*Some of you need to realize that you can serve the Lord through a Fraternity or Sorority. I am a member, and I see my service in the sorority as serving the Lord.*

*Guess what, your idolatry of your children can be against Christianity if you let your love of them come between you and God. Even your marriage can become your "god". There can only be one God in your life. Who is that God should always be the question we ask ourselves.*



Prudent1 said:


> I don't think in and of itself sororities are against Christianity. However, they like any other thing can become little gods in our lives if we are not careful. Some of the activities many ppl engage in while participating in sorority activities are definitely not godly. So that has to be kept in mind too. Many ppl like the camaraderie and view membership as validation and a rite of passage of sorts. That's fine too I think since it is God who created us with our gregarious nature. I think the thing to remember is nothing can have 1st place in our hearts besides God. BTW, I opted out of pledging when I was in college b/c I was more mature than a lot of the other girls there at the time. A lot of the activities that were fun to them I could see the later ramifications of.
> beer2:ver18:
> Pretty much everyone else in my family (males too) pledged something or the other.  In proper context I think they can be fun.


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## Princess4real (Sep 24, 2009)

cocoberry10 said:


> *  Thanks Prudent1. ANYTHING that takes the number one place over God is against Christianity and against God.*
> 
> *Some of you need to realize that you can serve the Lord through a Fraternity or Sorority. I am a member, and I see my service in the sorority as serving the Lord.*
> 
> *Guess what, your idolatry of your children can be against Christianity if you let your love of them come between you and God. Even your marriage can become your "god". There can only be one God in your life. Who is that God should always be the question we ask ourselves.*


 
Good post!!!  notworthy:notworthy


----------



## DarlingNikki (Sep 24, 2009)

You come across very nasty and condescending in your posts.



Child0fGod said:


> share with us.
> 
> ETA:
> ...oh wait, are you a delta?
> ...


----------



## Reminiscing (Sep 24, 2009)

Princess4real said:


> Annnd when they weren't able to get into that organization.  I say try again next year, *but all the anger and bitterness is pathetic*.



Thank you!  You read my mind.



DarlingNikki said:


> You come across very nasty and condescending in your posts.



This is exactly my issue with this discussion.  I thought we were all Christians.  Why is there such a negative tone in this forum?  If non-Christians were to come read this thread they wouldn't be encouraged to serve God.  They would walk away thinking why come to God when there's more drama among his people than there is on the outside.  This thread started off with an innocent question of what's your OPINION?  The responses started off pleasant but now it's a war with COG and 1Star trying to tell all Greeks that they're worshiping the devil?  Please tell me what Heaven or Hell do you have to put us in?  It is not your job to preach condemnation on us, that is only God's job.  And to tell you the truth, he's much more forgiving than the two of you come off.  I say all of this with love and concern.  We as Christians need to learn to preach to others without condemning them.  It's like when a preacher stands at the pulpit, he delivers his message and then gives an altar call. The preacher did all he could do to bring those listening to God but it's really on those listening to actually come to the altar and accept God.  This is a Christian forum.  With all the denominations out there and different versions of the Bible we read, we are bound to disagree.  Please let's state our opinions and beliefs, pray that we've been a blessing to someone and then keep it moving.  We don't need this forum to become Satan's tool to non-believers.


----------



## divya (Sep 24, 2009)

I am hesitant to make a statement either way but would not be surprised if further research would reveal that being in a fraternity or sorority is against Christianity. When I was in college, there was one organization that seemed different and fun, but it wasn't impressive enough. Overall though, I find that too many questionable activities take place within this organizations. Further, I pledge allegiance to God - not to a flag, not to a sorority etc. - but to God and God alone.


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## Ramya (Sep 24, 2009)

If you are having any reservations or convictions about any organization or activity please pray and seek HIS advice about it. But also remember that a conviction is not law.


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## Princess4real (Sep 24, 2009)

Reminiscing said:


> Thank you! You read my mind.
> 
> 
> 
> This is exactly my issue with this discussion. I thought we were all Christians. Why is there such a negative tone in this forum? If non-Christians were to come read this thread they wouldn't be encouraged to serve God. They would walk away thinking why come to God when there's more drama among his people than there is on the outside. This thread started off with an innocent question of what's your OPINION? The responses started off pleasant but now it's a war with COG and 1Star trying to tell all Greeks that they're worshiping the devil? Please tell me what Heaven or Hell do you have to put us in? It is not your job to preach condemnation on us, that is only God's job. And to tell you the truth, he's much more forgiving than the two of you come off. I say all of this with love and concern. We as Christians need to learn to preach to others without condemning them. It's like when a preacher stands at the pulpit, he delivers his message and then gives an altar call. The preacher did all he could do to bring those listening to God but it's really on those listening to actually come to the altar and accept God. This is a Christian forum. With all the denominations out there and different versions of the Bible we read, we are bound to disagree. Please let's state our opinions and beliefs, pray that we've been a blessing to someone and then keep it moving. We don't need this forum to become Satan's tool to non-believers.


 
Warm loving post!  All of our relationships with God is personal and I know it has been said before, but God knows my heart just like he knows the ones who think their speaking for him.


----------



## theAlist (Sep 24, 2009)

Princess4real said:


> Annnd when they weren't able to get into that organization.  I say try again next year, but all the anger and bitterness is pathetic.



I wonder why this is the first some greeks like to throw around a lot....I'm sure there are plenty of people that are bitter, but there are plenty of people as well that had no problems getting into their sorority or fraternity and decided that they wanted out.

-----------------

There was an AKA on our campus, a year after she crossed she renounced her letters.  The treatment she received from her chapter was...not Christ-like, let me put it that way lol.  I felt so sorry for her and eventually she had to transfer.  Now not saying all chapters are like that, but lets not sugar coat this...there are LOTS of greek chapters doing some questionable things, especially during the said "pledge" period.  Yes, pledging is illegal, but I can count on my hand 3 chapters out of 4 universities in my area that follow that rule (and those three are the same org).  Again, not saying this is everywhere but this is my experience and why I have some of the opinions that I do.  Apparently being paper is just that AWFUL that they will risk their letters, chapter and possible freedom just for initiation.


----------



## DarlingNikki (Sep 24, 2009)

Churches do a lot of questionable things too.  And there are nasty people everywhere, church included.  The "not Christ-like" treatment she received is no different than when *some* Christians turn their noses up at nonbelievers/people who believe differently (refer to this forum for examples).


----------



## Princess4real (Sep 24, 2009)

Jermajesty said:


> I wonder why this is the first some greeks like to throw around a lot....I'm sure there are plenty of people that are bitter, but there are plenty of people as well that had no problems getting into their sorority or fraternity and decided that they wanted out.
> 
> -----------------
> 
> There was an AKA on our campus, a year after she crossed she renounced her letters. The treatment she received from her chapter was...not Christ-like, let me put it that way lol. I felt so sorry for her and eventually she had to transfer. Now not saying all chapters are like that, but lets not sugar coat this...there are LOTS of greek chapters doing some questionable things, especially during the said "pledge" period. Yes, pledging is illegal, but I can count on my hand 3 chapters out of 4 universities in my area that follow that rule (and those three are the same org). Again, not saying this is everywhere but this is my experience and why I have some of the opinions that I do. Apparently being paper is just that AWFUL that they will risk their letters, chapter and possible freedom just for initiation.


 
Jermajesty, I don't have a problem with that because to each his own. I don't think people who do not wish to stay in a organization is evil and that God or Satan told them to get out of there. I wish them the best in whatever they decide to do in the future.  I'm not the Lord and try not to speak for him, but he does know *my *heart. I try not to and let me say it again, I try not to judge anybody else walk with God because *I* am not perfect.


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## Ramya (Sep 24, 2009)

DarlingNikki said:


> Churches do a lot of questionable things too.  And there are nasty people everywhere, church included.  The "not Christ-like" treatment she received is no different than when *some* Christians turn their noses up at nonbelievers/people who believe differently (refer to this forum for examples).



But it was her choice to leave right? Personally I would leave any church and/or organization that i felt conflicted with my beliefs.


----------



## Princess4real (Sep 24, 2009)

Jermajesty said:


> I wonder why this is the first some greeks like to throw around a lot....I'm sure there are plenty of people that are bitter, but there are plenty of people as well that had no problems getting into their sorority or fraternity and decided that they wanted out.
> 
> -----------------
> 
> There was an AKA on our campus, a year after she crossed she renounced her letters. The treatment she received from her chapter was...not Christ-like, let me put it that way lol. I felt so sorry for her and eventually she had to transfer. Now not saying all chapters are like that, but lets not sugar coat this...there are LOTS of greek chapters doing some questionable things, especially during the said "pledge" period. Yes, pledging is illegal, but I can count on my hand 3 chapters out of 4 universities in my area that follow that rule (and those three are the same org). Again, not saying this is everywhere but this is my experience and why I have some of the opinions that I do. Apparently being paper is just that AWFUL that they will risk their letters, chapter and possible freedom just for initiation.


 
I know how you feel because speaking as a Christian myself, I always wonder why do Christians constantly judge other people, especially, if they don't do the things we think they should or shouldn't be doing.  You went to your dad and he helped you to make the decision to leave or to not participate in your sorority anymore and I respect that and glad that he was there for you. People have said that they prayed to God before joining an organization and decided to still join and do good things. My problem with some of the other posters is, how do they know that God isn't pleased with the works that the people who belongs to these organizations are doing???


----------



## Ramya (Sep 24, 2009)

Princess4real said:


> I know how you feel because speaking as a Christian myself, I always wonder why do Christians constantly judge other people, especially, if they don't do the things we think they should or shouldn't be doing.  You went to your dad and he helped you to make the decision to leave or to not participate in your sorority anymore and I respect that and glad that he was there for you. People have said that they prayed to God before joining an organization and decided to still join and do good things. My problem with some of the other posters is, how do they know that God isn't pleased with the works that the people who belongs to these organizations are doing???



I don't know what 'works' they are referring to but anything that is directly laid out in the bible-- fornication, drunkiness, lying, swearing, not loving your neighbor etc are not pleasing to God. Before yall start hollering about what yo organization don't do, I'm just being general from what I see and have experienced. The things that are pleasing to God: fellowship, service, love etc. . I don't believe that sororities and fraternities are inherently evil however people can't pretend like all of them are wholesome and loving. Come on now.


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## divya (Sep 24, 2009)

Jermajesty said:


> *I wonder why this is the first some greeks like to throw around a lot....*I'm sure there are plenty of people that are bitter, but there are plenty of people as well that had no problems getting into their sorority or fraternity and decided that they wanted out.
> 
> -----------------
> 
> There was an AKA on our campus, a year after she crossed she renounced her letters.  The treatment she received from her chapter was...not Christ-like, let me put it that way lol.  I felt so sorry for her and eventually she had to transfer.  Now not saying all chapters are like that, but lets not sugar coat this...there are LOTS of greek chapters doing some questionable things, especially during the said "pledge" period.  Yes, pledging is illegal, but I can count on my hand 3 chapters out of 4 universities in my area that follow that rule (and those three are the same org).  Again, not saying this is everywhere but this is my experience and why I have some of the opinions that I do.  Apparently being paper is just that AWFUL that they will risk their letters, chapter and possible freedom just for initiation.



Agreed. Further, a lot of greeks are quick to make that statement when some of us never even tried to get into the organizations in the first place. If you not into greek organizations or something related to it, some greeks want to throw out that you must have been rejected from one. LOL. I just don't get it...


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## DarlingNikki (Sep 24, 2009)

That wasn't my point.  But I agree with the bolded.



Ramya said:


> But it was her choice to leave right? *Personally I would leave any church and/or organization that i felt conflicted with my beliefs.*


----------



## myoung (Sep 24, 2009)

Jermajesty said:


> I wonder why this is the first some greeks like to throw around a lot....I'm sure there are plenty of people that are bitter, but there are plenty of people as well that had no problems getting into their sorority or fraternity and decided that they wanted out.
> 
> -----------------
> 
> There was an AKA on our campus, a year after she crossed she renounced her letters. *The treatment she received from her chapter was...not Christ-like, let me put it that way lol. I felt so sorry for her and eventually she had to transfer. Now not saying all chapters are like that, but lets not sugar coat this...there are LOTS of greek chapters doing some questionable things, especially during the said "pledge" period.* Yes, pledging is illegal, but I can count on my hand 3 chapters out of 4 universities in my area that follow that rule (and those three are the same org). Again, not saying this is everywhere but this is my experience and why I have some of the opinions that I do. Apparently being paper is just that AWFUL that they will risk their letters, chapter and possible freedom just for initiation.


 
See...this is what people who are not familiar with these organizations do not understand.  These organizations have strict rules to avoid this but this is not the organization, but rather a few college aged kids that choose to make up their own rules and process. It is no different from leaders in other organizations (or Churches) who knowingly do wrong.  Once an Organization find out, these people are disciplined or kicked out.  It is no different than the San Antonio police officer that assaulted my niece and was later fired.  I cannot say that the whole San Antonio Police Department is corrupted.

Case in point...The Author stated that aside from a book a youngster had given her, what really made her decide to leave AKA was the case in California where the young ladies drowned and AKA said that it "was not them."  As tragic as that situation is, and my hearts do go out to those 2 young ladies, it was NOT anything that was done from the National or Chapter level of that Organization.  It was done by individual that chose to falsely represent AKA.  

Not only does my Chapter have their anniversary at Church, they also support and donate to alot of the Church's ministries.  As I stated earlier, there are alot of Godly Men and Women that I admire in these Organization, especially the ones that have been in for 50-plus years.  And I am sure that those that take it upon themselves to "denounce" them and "send them to Hell" can actually learn ALOT from them.  

ETA:  Jermajesty...I am not saying that you were denouncing them.


----------



## Vonnieluvs08 (Sep 24, 2009)

I am glad to see this thread take a positive turn with civil communication amongst believers of Christ.  When I read some of the posts I too felt that if I hadn't found the Lord I would have a problem coming to know Him due to the attitude and blatant negativity in the thread.  I would be scared to meet some of them in real life.

I spoke with my line sister last night and asked her what she thought and she has grown up in the church and I find to be a good mentor in my personal disicpling.  She made good points about greeks that make temples to there organization in their home, or who let the the letters rule their life instead of God.  We both agree that its an individuals personal relationship with God that will determine if a GLO is for them or not.  Just like all other decisions we make in life we must first go to God and seek his grace and council and then move.  

God has blessed me with a new church home, great friends, a supportive family, and sorors that strive to help mankind.


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## Princess4real (Sep 24, 2009)

Ramya said:


> I don't know what 'works' they are referring to but anything that is directly laid out in the bible-- fornication, drunkiness, lying, swearing, not loving your neighbor etc are not pleasing to God. Before yall start hollering about what yo organization don't do, I'm just being general from what I see and have experienced. The things that are pleasing to God: fellowship, service, love etc. . I don't believe that sororities and fraternities are inherently evil however people can't pretend like all of them are wholesome and loving. Come on now.


 
Ramya, no disrespect at all, but if you are not in the organization you do not need to know everything we do.  We do alot of good things for the people in our communities. Buy the book the Divine 9 and the book In Search of Sisterhood by Soror Paula Giddings if you really need to know what we are all about.  Labeling people and their organizations evil gets people upset and the attitude you give is what you will get back.  I'm not talking about your attitude because your not coming off like some of the others.


----------



## Ramya (Sep 24, 2009)

Princess4real said:


> Ramya, no disrespect at all, but if you are not in the organization you do not need to know everything we do.  We do alot of good things for the people in our communities. Buy the book the Divine 9 and the book In Search of Sisterhood by Soror Paula Giddings if you really need to know what we are all about.  Labeling people and their orgnizations evil gets people upset and the attitude you give is what you will get back.  I'm not talking about your attitude because your not coming off like some of the others.



I know what sororities and fraternities do. My parents are members, my friends are members and I even looked into it myself and decided that it's not something I want to pursue right now. (no time to be an effective member) and I have read the Divine 9 . I said I DONT think sororities and fraternities are inherently evil.


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## divya (Sep 24, 2009)

*Wiki on Greek organizations...*
(not that it's an authority or anything)

*Fraternity*

A fraternity (Latin frater : "brother") is a brotherhood, though the term usually connotes a distinct or formal organization. The only true distinction between a fraternity and any other form of social organization is the implication that the members freely associate as equals for a mutually beneficial purpose, rather than because of a religious, governmental, commercial, or familial bond, although there are fraternities dedicated to each of these topics.[1]

In many instances fraternities are limited to male membership but this is not always the case, and there are mixed male and female, and even wholly female, fraternities. For example, for general fraternities: Grande Loge Mixte de France, Honorable Fraternity of Ancient Freemasons, Grande Lodge Feminine de France, and Order of the Eastern Star.

Fraternities can be organized for many purposes, including university education, work skills, ethics, ethnicity, religion, politics, charity, chivalry, other standards of personal conduct, asceticism, service, performing arts, family command of territory, and even crime. There is almost always an explicit goal of mutual support, and while there have been fraternal orders for the well-off there have also been many fraternities for those in the lower ranks of society, especially for national or religious minorities. Trade unions also grew out of fraternities such as the Knights of Labor.

The ability to organize freely, apart from the institutions of government and religion, was a fundamental part of the establishment of the modern world. In Living the Enlightenment, Margaret C. Jacobs showed the development of Jurgen Habermas' 'public space' in 17th century Netherlands was closely related to the establishment of lodges of Freemasons.[2]

*History*

There are known fraternal organizations which existed as far back as ancient Greece and Rome and analogous institutions in the late medieval period called confraternities, which were lay organizations allied to the Catholic Church.

The development of Freemasonry in the early 1700s became a watershed moment in fraternal organization, and there have been hundreds of varieties of Freemasonry, and thousands of closely parallel organizations since then. Virtually all fraternal organizations today bear some debt to the models of organization first worked out in Masonic lodges.[1]

The development was especially dynamic in the United States, where the freedom to associate outside governmental regulation is expressly sanctioned in law.[3][4] There have been hundreds of fraternal organizations in the United States, and at the turn of the last century the number of memberships was equal to the number of adult males, although, because of multiple memberships, probably only 50% of adult males belonged to any organizations.[1] In 1944 Arthur M. Schlesinger coined the phrase "a nation of joiners" to refer to the phenomenon.[5] Alexis de Tocqueville also referred to the American reliance on private organization in the 1830s in Democracy in America.

*There are many attributes that fraternities may or may not have, depending on their structure and purpose. Fraternities can have differing degrees of secrecy, some form of initiation or ceremony marking admission, formal codes of behavior, disciplinary procedures, very differing amounts of real property and assets.[1]*


* College and university fraternities*

Fraternities have a long history in colleges and universities, and form a major subsection of the whole range of fraternities.[6] In Europe, students are organized in nations and corporations since the beginnings of the modern university in the late medieval period, but the situation can differ greatly by country.

In the United States, fraternities in colleges date to the 1770s, but did not fully assume an established pattern until the 1840s. *They were strongly influenced by the patterns set by Freemasonry.[1] The main difference between the older European organizations and the American organizations is that the American student societies virtually always include initiations, the formal use of symbolism, and the lodge-based organizational structure (chapters) derived from usages in Freemasonry.[1*


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## msa (Sep 24, 2009)

There is no specific directive in the bible against membership in a GLO. It's one of those things that must be decided by the person, and for some it is a sin while for others it isn't. You have to really pray about it and see whether your spirit is convicted. If it is, then don't do it. 

Even after a person joins, it's up to them to figure out if they are making their organization their god. If they are, then they should stop. But please know that membership doesn't require allowing your org to supersede God, but it can if you allow it to.

I do hope that people will stop judging all of us based on what some people do. Just like you, a Christian, wouldn't want someone to judge you based on what some other Christians do.


----------



## divya (Sep 24, 2009)

Despite some of the turns in this discussion, it is an interesting one.  I would like to look deeper into the history of these organizations. 

Honestly, a lot of this might be in the approach. The dontgogreek.com site has some interesting information but does not provide the sources for some claims. And to be fair, it does seem a bit like it is attacking rather than trying to win souls over with a clear presentation of the information. Sometimes it is not what we do, but how we do it...

I agree with MSA, that you cannot judge everyone based on what some do. And of course, the same time, it is important to be careful of who and what we associate with. 

Be blessed ladies!


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## Princess4real (Sep 24, 2009)

divya said:


> Despite some of the turns in this discussion, it is an interesting one. I would like to look deeper into the history of these organizations.
> 
> Honestly, a lot of this might be in the approach. The dontgogreek.com site has some interesting information but does not provide the sources for some claims. And to be fair, it does seem a bit like it is attacking rather than *trying to win souls over with a clear presentation of the information. Sometimes it is not what we do, but how we do it*...
> 
> ...


 
ITA, good post.


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## Child0fGod (Sep 24, 2009)

goodness, ladies.

fraternities and sororities are not in the holy, righteous and *sanctified* will of GOD ALMIGHTY. you can continue to agree to disagree on this here _forum_, 

*Matthew 12:36*
 But I say unto you, That every *idle* *word* that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

but in the end, you'll be the one sentenced by a Righteous God for your decisions to continue to stay bonded to/in bondage to these organizations.



Child0fGod said:


> here's my current booklist; i plan on getting each book one day or another. i recommend the same for you and anyone else who is seeking clarification on these organizations:
> 
> 
> "Greek-Letter      Organizations: Offspring of Abomination" book by Gail Gray
> ...


----------



## Child0fGod (Sep 24, 2009)

msa said:


> Have you presented any scriptures yet showing that membership in a greek letter organization is against christianity?
> 
> Nope.



If you do not want to take the time to do some soul-searching by examining some of the resources I have provided you with... and using your Bible as a reference, then that is your own choosing.

*Proverbs 6:9*
How long wilt thou *sleep*, O *sluggard*? when wilt thou arise out of thy *sleep*?



Child0fGod said:


> here's my current booklist; i plan on getting each book one day or another. i recommend the same for you and anyone else who is seeking clarification on these organizations:
> 
> 
> "Greek-Letter      Organizations: Offspring of Abomination" book by Gail Gray
> ...


----------



## msa (Sep 25, 2009)

Child0fGod said:


> If you do not want to take the time to do some soul-searching by examining some of the resources I have provided you with... *and using your Bible as a reference*, then that is your own choosing.



I just want scriptures from the Bible that show that membership in GLO is against the word. I don't want to use the bible as a "reference", I want to use it as an authority on the matter and not other people's testimonies or opinions.

You put this scripture in your post:


> *Colossians 2:8 (New Living Translation)*
> 
> 8 Don’t let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powersa]" class="footnote">[a] of this world, rather than from Christ.



And frankly, that's all I'm trying to avoid. I don't want to hear "high-sounding nonsense that comes from human thinking" in regards to this matter. I want to hear the Word. Show me some scripture so that we can have a real, biblically based, discussion.


----------



## msa (Sep 25, 2009)

Child0fGod said:


> goodness, ladies.
> 
> fraternities and sororities are not in the holy, righteous and *sanctified* will of GOD ALMIGHTY. you can continue to agree to disagree on this here _forum_,
> 
> ...



How can you speak for the will of God? How do you know that anyone will be "sentenced by a righteous God" for their membership?

You are clearly overstepping your bounds here. You are not God, you can't speak for Him, and you don't have a heaven or hell to put anyone in.


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## Child0fGod (Sep 25, 2009)

msa said:


> How can you speak for the will of God? How do you know that anyone will be "sentenced by a righteous God" for their membership?



sentenced means judged at the coming of Christ 



msa said:


> I just want scriptures from the Bible that show that membership in GLO is against the word. I don't want to use the bible as a "reference", I want to use it as an authority on the matter and not other people's testimonies or opinions.
> 
> And frankly, that's all I'm trying to avoid. I don't want to hear "high-sounding nonsense that comes from human thinking" in regards to this matter. I want to hear the Word. Show me some scripture so that we can have a real, biblically based, discussion.



yes i can provide those for you. the Bible *is *a reference. the websites and books i have provided you with are TESTIMONIES. John the Baptist TESTIFIED of JESUS as being the WORD of GOD. I know HIS testimony wasn't void! So, neither are the testimonies of your brothers and sisters IN CHRIST who have been brought out of these organizations.

honestly i don't know if you will refute those too (scriptures provided) while attempting to justify being in your organization. your heart cannot be hardended to the word of God once it has been placed in front of you. only the Holy Spirit can convict you unto repentance.



Child0fGod said:


> here's my current booklist; i plan on getting each book one day or another. i recommend the same for you and anyone else who is seeking clarification on these organizations:
> 
> * "Greek-Letter Organizations: Offspring of Abomination" book by Gail Gray
> * "Coming Apart at the Seams" book by Minister Fred Hatchett
> ...


----------



## msa (Sep 25, 2009)

Child0fGod said:


> sentenced means judged at the coming of Christ



I know what it means. The point is you don't know what anyone may or may not be "sentenced" for because your are not God nor are you His mouthpiece.



Child0fGod said:


> yes i can provide those for you. honestly i don't know if you will refute those too (scriptures provided) while attempting to justify being in your organization. your heart cannot be hardended to the word of God once it has been placed in front of you. only the Holy Spirit can convict you unto repentance.



Provide scripture. That's all I asked for from beginning to end.


----------



## Child0fGod (Sep 25, 2009)

*goodnight all*

i'm going to write to you, ok msa?

just want everyone to be aware that although everyone is not responding, many people *are* listening, reading and digesting all of this information.

i'm happy. 
happy that God is the Author and Finisher of our faith and that He cares enough about us to bring us out of darkness, no matter the situation.

stay grounded, encouraged, EQUIPPED with the word of God, children of GOD and *never* doubt in your heart what you know to be true _according_ to the will of God Almighty!

God keep you!,



Child0fGod said:


> here's my current booklist; i plan on getting each book one day or another. i recommend the same for you and anyone else who is seeking clarification on these organizations:
> 
> * "Greek-Letter Organizations: Offspring of Abomination" book by Gail Gray
> * "Coming Apart at the Seams" book by Minister Fred Hatchett
> ...


----------



## msa (Sep 25, 2009)

*Re: goodnight all*



Child0fGod said:


> i'm going to write to you, ok msa?
> 
> just want everyone to be aware that although everyone is not responding, many people *are* listening, reading and digesting all of this information.




Since many people are reading this, please post any scriptures in this thread. Thank you.

Here is a website I found doing a google search, it brings up some good points (though I don't necessarily agree with them all). Those interested may want to read.

http://www.gotquestions.org/fraternity-sorority-Christian.html


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## msa (Sep 25, 2009)

Child0fGod said:


> yes i can provide those for you. the Bible *is *a reference. the websites and books i have provided you with are TESTIMONIES. John the Baptist TESTIFIED of JESUS as being the WORD of GOD. I know HIS testimony wasn't void! *So, neither are the testimonies of your brothers and sisters IN CHRIST who have been brought out of these organizations.*



I am not saying their testimonies are void. The question asked was "is joining a GLO against christianity?" and in order to answer that question then scripture is required.


----------



## Child0fGod (Sep 25, 2009)

*Re: goodnight all*



msa said:


> Since many people are reading this, please post any scriptures in this thread. Thank you.
> 
> Here is a website I found doing a google search, it brings up some good points (though I don't necessarily agree with them all). Those interested may want to read.
> 
> http://www.gotquestions.org/fraternity-sorority-Christian.html



good site, sis.

beware guys, this website gives primarily surface information... he/she skips over the spiritual effects of joining these organizations.

*Romans 8:6*
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

*1 Corinthians 2:13*
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.



Child0fGod said:


> here's my current booklist; i plan on getting each book one day or another. i recommend the same for you and anyone else who is seeking clarification on these organizations:
> 
> * "Greek-Letter Organizations: Offspring of Abomination" book by Gail Gray
> * "Coming Apart at the Seams" book by Minister Fred Hatchett
> ...


----------



## msa (Sep 25, 2009)

*Re: goodnight all*



Child0fGod said:


> good site, sis.
> 
> beware guys, this website gives primarily surface information... he/she skips over the spiritual effects of joining these organizations.



What are the spiritual effects? Please post scriptures.

And I'm not sure what there is to "beware" of at that site. It clearly sets out some possible issues that membership may have, and it provides scriptures. Unlike this thread.



Child0fGod said:


> *Romans 8:6*
> For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
> 
> *1 Corinthians 2:13*
> Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.



Are these referring to membership or just that website or something else in general?

As a side note...can you please stop quoting yourself over and over again? It's a really long quote and it makes the thread more cumbersome to read.


----------



## Child0fGod (Sep 25, 2009)

*Re: goodnight all*



msa said:


> What are the spiritual effects? Please post scriptures.
> 
> As a side note...can you please stop quoting yourself over and over again? It's a really long quote and it makes the thread more cumbersome to read.



did you bully people into doing your homework for you when you were younger? lol nono:

i wish i could give you all of the answers you are looking for, but for someone who has actually been through the process and came to know that Christ was against it afterward, their testimonies will shed light on this for you... each book has countless scriptures for us to read and study.

do you plan on grabbing any of those books? this would really help me to understand where your heart is.



Child0fGod said:


> here's my current booklist; i plan on getting each book one day or another. i recommend the same for you and anyone else who is seeking clarification on these organizations:
> 
> * "Greek-Letter Organizations: Offspring of Abomination" book by Gail Gray
> * "Coming Apart at the Seams" book by Minister Fred Hatchett
> ...


----------



## msa (Sep 25, 2009)

*Re: goodnight all*



Child0fGod said:


> did you bully people into doing your homework for you when you were younger? lol nono:



Seriously, someone else said it before, you are truly being condescending in your posts in this thread and it's really unnecessary.

I am not asking you to "do my homework" for me. I'm just asking you to back up what you are saying and to help me out. I've been through the bible backward and forward and still haven't found anything that is against membership in a GLO. So if I'm missing something can you please point me in the right direction? That's all I'm asking.



Child0fGod said:


> i wish i could give you all of the answers you are looking for, but for someone who has actually been through the process and came to know that Christ was against it afterward, their testimonies will shed light on this for you... each book has countless scriptures for us to read and study.
> 
> do you plan on grabbing any of those books? this would really help me to understand where your heart is.



It's really not about giving me answers. Their testimonies are great but all I need is the bible. Since you have the books can you post some of the scriptures that are talked about? 

And seriously, *YOU DON'T NEED TO "UNDERSTAND" WHERE MY HEART IS. *Seriously seriously. It's not for you to judge my, or anyone else's heart. 

I can't even believe this. I just can't believe it. I'm speechless at the things you are saying.


----------



## Child0fGod (Sep 25, 2009)

*Re: goodnight all*



msa said:


> Seriously, someone else said it before, you are truly being condescending in your posts in this thread and it's really unnecessary.
> 
> I am not asking you to "do my homework" for me. I'm just asking you to back up what you are saying and to help me out. I've been through the bible backward and forward and still haven't found anything that is against membership in a GLO. So if I'm missing something can you please point me in the right direction? That's all I'm asking.
> 
> ...



i don't have the books but i've met gail online and fred offline. i will be ordering them and wouldn't mind coming back to share with you guys.

will you buy some of the books with me? we could have like a bible study or something online, or a conference call if anyone else wanted to get on the phone and talk about this thing.



Child0fGod said:


> here's my current booklist; i plan on getting each book one day or another. i recommend the same for you and anyone else who is seeking clarification on these organizations:
> 
> * "Greek-Letter Organizations: Offspring of Abomination" book by Gail Gray
> * "Coming Apart at the Seams" book by Minister Fred Hatchett
> ...


----------



## msa (Sep 25, 2009)

*Re: goodnight all*



Child0fGod said:


> will you buy some of the books with me? we could have like a bible study or something online, or a conference call if anyone else wanted to get on the phone and talk about this thing.



I will not be doing anything with you, you've insulted me enough.


----------



## SimplyBlessed (Sep 25, 2009)

well I leave and come back and wow!!


----------



## missann (Sep 25, 2009)

Princess4real said:


> Annnd when they weren't able to get into that organization.  I say try again next year, but all the anger and bitterness is pathetic.



I don't understand this either.  Are black sororities supposed to be elite?  Do you believe most people desire to join and are excluded?


----------



## DarlingNikki (Sep 25, 2009)

SMH @ some of the posts.  Being a Christian doesn't mean you are better than anyone; it only means that you recognize that you are imperfect and a sinner, and that the only way for you to be deemed innocent before God is by the forgiveness through Christ that is offered.  Your duty is to show people Christ, not accuse them of wrong doing.  If you want to witness to others, you need to make yourself approachable and have an open heart...don't do it from a place of judgment but from one of love and understanding.  Christians SHOULD be the most humble people on the earth, but unfortunately that is rarely the case.  "Child of God", I suggest you ponder this before deeming yourself worthy of critiquing someone else's walk with Christ...or "where their heart is" .  Your approach is way off and people are responding accordingly.


----------



## divya (Sep 25, 2009)

Child0fGod said:


> goodness, ladies.
> 
> fraternities and sororities are not in the holy, righteous and *sanctified* will of GOD ALMIGHTY. you can continue to agree to disagree on this here _forum_,
> 
> ...



God *alone* decides matters of salvation.


----------



## Princess4real (Sep 25, 2009)

missann said:


> I don't understand this either. Are black sororities supposed to be elite? Do you believe most people desire to join and are excluded?


 
No, I do not believe their elite, but people wanting to know why people join sororities comes up alot around these parts and it always turns into bashing and that is what *I do not understand*.  To bash something you don't know about and to go off of he say or she say is ridiculous to me. Some people have explained 19 million times why they joined one and it never fails that someone will come in and try to provide proof that sororities are bad.  One of my all time favorite reasons for not to join one is, *I was more mature than the other ladies on campus.*


----------



## myoung (Sep 25, 2009)

*Re: goodnight all*



Child0fGod said:


> beware guys, this website gives primarily surface information... he/she skips over the spiritual effects of joining these organizations.


 
So..you choose to discredit another website that was provided (with scripture) BUT want us to accept the one that you provided as Gospel.  And if we do not then "We will had to deal with the Sentencing/Judgement".

And you want us to "accept" and not question the testimonies of some BUT you cannot accept the Testimonies from others.

You remind of what I have heard that "some people can be so RELIGIOUS that they are not any Worldly Good".  You cannot draw people to the Word that way.  It just seems that you are continously quoting the same thing and others that you believe but I am not sure if you really understand or can justify what you are trying to make us believe.  And it is a shame because this can be a good discussion but you have totally changed the tone of this forum in which I normally lurk and learn from.  Right now, I feel more Love in the Political Forum.   Take Care.


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## star2008 (Sep 25, 2009)

What job is that??  Maybe you should NOT have taken it!LOL


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## Princess4real (Sep 25, 2009)

*Re: goodnight all*



Child0fGod said:


> *did you bully people into doing your homework for you when you were younger?* lol nono:
> 
> i wish i could give you all of the answers you are looking for, but for someone who has actually been through the process and came to know that Christ was against it afterward, their testimonies will shed light on this for you... each book has countless scriptures for us to read and study.
> 
> do you plan on grabbing any of those books? this would really help me to understand where your heart is.


 
You can't be serious?  Your the one running from thread to thread bullying people into believeing that they should think like you and if we don't, we will probably end up in hell. erplexed

bul⋅ly1  /ˈbʊli/  Show Spelled Pronunciation [bool-ee]  Show IPA noun, plural -lies, verb, -lied, -ly⋅ing, adjective, interjection 
Use bullying in a Sentence
See web results for bullying
See images of bullying
–noun 1. *a blustering, quarrelsome, overbearing person who habitually badgers and intimidates smaller or weaker people*.


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## star2008 (Sep 25, 2009)

You state that 90% is opinion.  What about the other 10%.  Is it fact, scripture?  1% against GOD would be enough for me get OUT!

Furthermore,

I wonder if all those defending their organizations who say they are in Christ defend Christ the same.  If you are in an organization do you witness to other members who may not be christian that Christ is indeed the ONLY way to salvation or do you just accept that they are a part of another religion not concerned for their eternal soul and keep on stepping with your community service.  Do you speak out against any practices that may be ungodly or just look past them not caring as long as you don't participate.  You don't have to be on the other team to help the other team score.

Finally, the question of all time is why oh why oh why do these orgs need secrets/oaths, letters, Egyptian symbols just to serve their community or have a sense of fellowship or sister/brotherhood.


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## star2008 (Sep 25, 2009)

*Re: goodnight all*

You've been through the bible backward and forward and have found not even one scripture that even hints to the fact that you should not join/pledge your all to a sorority?  

O.k., could you tell me what is the significance of the Egyptian symbols in these organizations and why do even choose to reference Greek mythology in the first place?


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## Princess4real (Sep 25, 2009)

star2008 said:


> You state that 90% is opinion. What about the other 10%. Is it fact, scripture? 1% against GOD would be enough for me get OUT!
> 
> Furthermore,
> 
> ...


 
Is this a joke? erplexed


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## star2008 (Sep 25, 2009)

I say this to 'Princess4real' with the utmost respect but when we come to know GOD's character, we should know that GOD could care LESS about the works ANY of us do!!!!  We are all a stench in his nostrils and it is ONLY because of the sacrifice of Jesus dying on the cross that any of us have a chance to gain salvation!  My question to you is, as a Christian, with the Great Commission as your motivation, why are members focused so much on the community service that these orgs do when that will NOT get other members who are not saved or the communities that you reach eternal salvation?  A lot of the current members of these orgs are saying that they don't participate in the parties, underground hazing, etc, but are you speaking out against it?  We can easily say that it's not our problem but I would not want ANYONE to even risk losing their soul so that is why it is our job as disciples of Christ to warn and pray for repentance hearts before God's judgement is cast down.


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## star2008 (Sep 25, 2009)

No, it's not a joke, I seriously want to know.  I know you can't answer for everyone else but answer for you.


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## msa (Sep 25, 2009)

star2008 said:


> You state that 90% is opinion.  What about the other 10%.  Is it fact, scripture?  1% against GOD would be enough for me get OUT!



Are you referring to this post I made earlier?


msa said:


> What's funny is, 90% of the arguments against BGLO's are opinions. That always happens when people aren't in possession of the facts and instead have to rely on hearsay. But you're right, agree to disagree.



If so, I think you maybe you're not understanding what I meant. I said that 90% of the arguments against joining a BGLO are based in opinion, and not facts. They are based on erroneous information about what is required and what members do and don't do. The other 10% isn't based on scripture either. It's usually still opinion, but that of ex-members. 

And if there was anything against God, I wouldn't have joined in the first place.



star2008 said:


> *I wonder if all those defending their organizations who say they are in Christ defend Christ the same. * If you are in an organization do you witness to other members who may not be christian that Christ is indeed the ONLY way to salvation or do you just accept that they are a part of another religion not concerned for their eternal soul and keep on stepping with your community service.  Do you speak out against any practices that may be ungodly or just look past them not caring as long as you don't participate.  You don't have to be on the other team to help the other team score.



About the bold, I could ask you the same questions you're asking me. Do you do the same things at your job? at your school? do you speak out about the ungodly atrocities that are taking place in your town, state, and country?

The thing is, I would never ask you those questions because it's not my place to ask them. Everyone's walk with God is personal, and how you manage yours has nothing to do with me and how I manage mine. And my opinion of it doesn't matter.




star2008 said:


> You've been through the bible backward and forward and have found not even one scripture that even hints to the fact that you should not join/pledge your all to a sorority?



Nope, not one scripture.

The fact is, I give my all to everything I do. It doesn't matter what area of my life it is in. But in giving my all to my sorority I still don't put it before God, just like with anything else.


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## star2008 (Sep 25, 2009)

*About the bold, I could ask you the same questions you're asking me. Do you do the same things at your job? at your school? do you speak out about the ungodly atrocities that are taking place in your town, state, and country?* Do I go around my office, saying repent or be damned? No!LOL But I do speak out everywhere I go, whether it be to pass out tracks or just to ask someone if they've accepted Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.  Did I speak out when I was in a sorority? Yes!  Did it change anything? No!  That was when I knew it was time to get out!  Frankly, the reason I speak out is because I'm not just concerned about my own eternal state.  Considering over 140,000 people die each day, I am very concerned about the eternal salvation of others, not just my own.  Do I still have to die daily to sin?  Oh yes!  Even though I will NEVA EVA be perfect it is my goal to strive for such until He returns.

You say that you have not found one scripture but I have, plenty of them.  I won't share them because as you say you have consulted the bible already so my posting them here will only reiterate what you've already read to no affect.  When I look back on the process to gain membership ALONE, that was enough for me to run for the hills! And I often wonder why didn't I see that!

Am I damning you to hell? NO, no absolutely not because aside from this forum I have no clue who you are.  

*The thing is, I would never ask you those questions because it's not my place to ask them.* Why isn't it your place to ask me?  I am NOT condemning you for not doing it however, if you say you glorify GOD through your organization I would think that would be an excellent way. No?  

Lastly, you did not answer my very last question.  That's fine if you don't want to answer and my aim is not to cause strife or confuse anyone reading these post however, my goal is to just ask the questions because when my heart was open to receive the truth, I didn't have to pray for it, it was right there in the bible.  I was just blind to it at first.


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## Theo (Sep 25, 2009)

This topic always gets people riled up. Its an interesting topic though. 

I'm not Greek, but when this topic comes up, I'm reminded of Paul's teaching in Romans 14:14-23 and 1 Cor 8:4-13. These passages talk about eating food sacrificed to idols specifically, but I feel that they can be applied to any matter that is a point of contention between Christians. I would encourage you all to read it if you haven't already! 

Also, when people bring up the historical basis of BGLOs and how its steeped in evil, do you know how much of a pagan culture we participate by just LIVING in the US? Paganism is all around us! Christianity of today is very different than Christianity during the time of the apostles! So many cultural norms in the US have pagan roots from European, I think that completely abstain from anything and everything, would be to just completely remove yourself from living life.

Ultimately, it really does come down to you and your God-given conscience. (Romans 14:22-23. The Bible says "*So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God.  
*
Personally, I feel like the whole BGLO thing is not that big of a deal, ultimately, we have much larger (and more relevant) issues to be focusing on the Christians, but if God speaks to you in such a manner, you definitely should listen to Him.


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## divya (Sep 25, 2009)

Question...has anyone come across a well put-together website that explains the origins of sororities and fraternities and whether or not these Scripturally coincide with the Christian lifestyle?

Really and truly, I likely am somewhat indifferent to them because of my upbringing, lack of family legacy and my personality. However, what if my children are different from me and are interested? How should a Christian mother advise her children on these matters? 

It would be great to explore this issue further...


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## msa (Sep 25, 2009)

star2008 said:


> Do I go around my office, saying repent or be damned? No!LOL But I do speak out everywhere I go, whether it be to pass out tracks or just to ask someone if they've accepted Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.  Did I speak out when I was in a sorority? Yes!  Did it change anything? No!  That was when I knew it was time to get out!  Frankly, the reason I speak out is because I'm not just concerned about my own eternal state.  Considering over 140,000 people die each day, I am very concerned about the eternal salvation of others, not just my own.  Do I still have to die daily to sin?  Oh yes!  Even though I will NEVA EVA be perfect it is my goal to strive for such until He returns.
> 
> You say that you have not found one scripture but I have, plenty of them.  I won't share them because as you say you have consulted the bible already so my posting them here will only reiterate what you've already read to no affect.  When I look back on the process to gain membership ALONE, that was enough for me to run for the hills! And I often wonder why didn't I see that!
> 
> ...



Since you did speak out when you were in a sorority, then you know it's possible for others to do it too. You know it's not mutually exclusive. The funny thing is, EVERYONE in my chapter is saved and is actively Christian and involved with their church. 
*
Please please please, if you have scriptures, share them. PLEASE. I've been asking over and over and over again and no one has shared any.* I want to know if I missed something or if I read something and just didn't take it to heart. This discussion would have been much richer if it had been based on scripture from start to end, and not opinion.

Let me go back and see what question I didn't answer.


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## msa (Sep 25, 2009)

divya said:


> Question...has anyone come across a well put-together website that explains the origins of sororities and fraternities and whether or not these Scripturally coincide with the Christian lifestyle?
> 
> Really and truly, I likely am somewhat indifferent to them because of my upbringing, lack of family legacy and my personality. However, what if my children are different from me and are interested? How should a Christian mother advise her children on these matters?
> 
> It would be great to explore this issue further...




Divya, you can pick up the book The Divine Nine. It has a concise history of each of the BGLO's that are in it. From there you can research each one individually by going to their websites or calling their national headquarters. They all have loads of information available.


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## divya (Sep 25, 2009)

msa said:


> Divya, you can pick up the book The Divine Nine. It has a concise history of each of the BGLO's that are in it. From there you can research each one individually by going to their websites or calling their national headquarters. They all have loads of information available.



Thank you! I found it at the public library. All are checked out, but I put it on hold.  But I am also just interesting in frats and sorors in general, not just historically black organizations. Do you know of any general books?


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## msa (Sep 25, 2009)

star2008 said:


> Finally, the question of all time is why oh why oh why do these orgs need secrets/oaths, letters, Egyptian symbols just to serve their community or have a sense of fellowship or sister/brotherhood.



1) GLO's do not need letters, etc. etc. to serve their community or have a sense of sister/brotherhood. That all comes from the commitment to uphold certain values and to be of service to others (whether that's your sister's or the black community in general).

2) If you want to talk about the structure, well everything has a structure. National corporations have one, churches have one, basketball teams have one. GLO's have the same basic structure that most traditional greek letter organizations have. They all have requirements for membership, some type of commitment members must make (ie an oath/vow/etc), and some outward sign to denote who they are as a group (ie letters, mascot, key, etc). I don't know about any egyptian symbols though, so I can't help you there. 

It's not that orgs "need" all those things, but since they're a certain type of org they generally have certain things as part of their organizational structure. Just like an NBA team has an owner, general manager, a team mascot, etc. etc.

3) Secrecy about the internal workings of an organization is not inherently evil, and many different entities require it. Oaths and vows are not inherently evil either, so I'm not seeing the problem there. Members of the armed forces have to take an oath. Doctors take an oath. The president took an oath.


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## msa (Sep 25, 2009)

divya said:


> Thank you! I found it at the public library. All are checked out, but I put it on hold.  But I am also just interesting in frats and sorors in general, not just historically black organizations. Do you know of any general books?



Hmmm. I can't think of any off the top of my head. I know almost nothing about the white glo's, and only very little about the christian glo's. 

Google the National Pan-Hellenic Council. They should list all the glo's that are under them and maybe you can get more info that way.


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## star2008 (Sep 25, 2009)

*3) Secrecy about the internal workings of an organization is not inherently evil, and many different entities require it. Oaths and vows are not inherently evil either, so I'm not seeing the problem there. Members of the armed forces have to take an oath. Doctors take an oath. The president took an oath. *  It's the type of oath, at least the one I know I took that I took issue with.  Even before I got out, I used to ask myself why the founders chose to use greek symbols, letters, terms?  And what was the meaning behind the process, why we had to go through certain things.  After going back and looking at what I went through and comparing it to things that happened in the bible my answer was that there is a natural world, the one we live in, and there is a spiritual world.  So things that happen in the natural world have a great spiritual impact that we don't see. 

Hmmm.....Let's see some scriptures that were potent to me.  

Ephesians 6:12 - Why?  Because when I started to see how certain processes, mimicked certain things that happened in the Bible, I knew it was no coincidence and these things had a spiritual meaning behind them that had nothing to do with the organization.

Exodus 20:3-5 - Why?  Because the oath that we took, and certain songs and chants that are even sung in stepshows today contradict this commandment.  

I John 2:5-17 - Why?  Because these organizations are BIG on community service and the websites are packed full of accomplishments of the sorority.  You have to admit, there is nothing humble about it.  Regardless of what I thought when we did community service.  When we did something great for the community the sorority was exalted, NOT God and the sacrifice of Christ.  My work was going to the benefit of the sorority.  Whenever we were out in the community at certain events we made sure to where para so that people would know who we were representing. 

I will post more if you want.

As far as the symbols, (this is purely my opinion) the only symbol I need is Christ and He is the only one I need to identify with.  From Him I get my wisdom, understanding, strength, light and whatever else.  

I guess this is important to me, because we see blatant sin, and works against God everyday and know this country is full of examples however, it's the things that are not so obvious that are the most dangerous.


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## Princess4real (Sep 25, 2009)

star2008 said:


> I say this to 'Princess4real' with the utmost respect but when we come to know GOD's character, we should know that GOD could care LESS about the works ANY of us do!!!! We are all a stench in his nostrils and it is ONLY because of the sacrifice of Jesus dying on the cross that any of us have a chance to gain salvation! My question to you is, as a Christian, with the Great Commission as your motivation, why are members focused so much on the community service that these orgs do when that will NOT get other members who are not saved or the communities that you reach eternal salvation? A lot of the current members of these orgs are saying that they don't participate in the parties, underground hazing, etc, but are you speaking out against it? We can easily say that it's not our problem but I would not want ANYONE to even risk losing their soul so that is why it is our job as disciples of Christ to warn and pray for repentance hearts before God's judgement is cast down.


 
*Correction* I didn't speak out against partying, I still hang out when I can and I don't see anything wrong with it.  When did you become a disciple? Have you always been a disciple? Why do you think the Lord only talks to you and a few others on the LHCF? I can't speak for everyone, but why do you and others assume that we don't know God and that we don't talk to other people about God??? 

Some people like to shout on corners and some people live to praise the Lord private. Just because you don't see people praising God in the streets, it doesn't mean that they are not doing it. Some people wear their religion on their sleeve and that's fine for them. I know you are going to find this hard to believe, but I love God and thankful for everything he has done for me.

How would you like it if I told you I think I love him more than you and that if you really love him you would have to prove it to me? Why do I have to leave my sorority in order for you to believe that I love the Lord? He may have told you not to join an organization, but he told me to go for it and do good things and I'm cool with that. 

P.S. Thanks for not wanting me to lose my soul, but I'm comfortable with my walk with God.


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## missann (Sep 25, 2009)

Princess4real said:


> No, I do not believe their elite, but people wanting to know why people join sororities comes up alot around these parts and it always turns into bashing and that is what *I do not understand*.  To bash something you don't know about and to go off of he say or she say is ridiculous to me. Some people have explained 19 million times why they joined one and it never fails that someone will come in and try to provide proof that sororities are bad.  One of my all time favorite reasons for not to join one is, *I was more mature than the other ladies on campus.*



So why is that reason (or any reason) so funny?  Do you think it's impossible for a certain group of ladies to come across as immature or simply "extra"?  I can understand a mature person not feeling the need to pledge an organization in order to conduct community service or other activities.

This sentiment is confusing.  Again it seems as though you assume everyone desires to join a sorority and is jealous if they aren't in one.  You're projecting the same "bashing" dynamic you accuse non-members of exercising.


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## myoung (Sep 25, 2009)

missann said:


> So why is that reason (or any reason) so funny? Do you think it's impossible for a certain group of ladies to come across as immature or simply "extra"? I can understand a mature person not feeling the need to* pledge an organization* in order to conduct community service or other activities.
> 
> This sentiment is confusing. Again it seems as though you assume everyone desires to join a sorority and is jealous if they aren't in one. You're projecting the same "bashing" dynamic you accuse non-members of exercising.


 
Let me start by some organizations no longer say Pledge because of the stigma behind it.   This is their way of speaking out against those things that they do NOT believe in.

I think that what Princess4Real might have been trying to say is that if a person does not want to join a certain organization for whatever reason then there isn't anything wrong with that....clearly there is something for everyone and this is the reason why there are a variety of organizations.  But in the meantime, don't try to put yourself on a pedestel or more importantly, down others in order to justify your reason for not wanting to join.  If the mature person was really interested in the organization and their mission they would look at the big picture and possibly wait to join a grad chapter instead of downing the entire Organization or organizations.  If not, maybe they can just find another one (a Church ministry, NAACP, educational field or whatever) that is more in line with their interests.

Another thing, I hear alot of people saying that they do not need to join a Sorority to perform community service.  The funny thing is those are the same folks that I have yet to see perform any community service. 

Just my two cents...now we can get back to whether or not it is against Christianity.


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## Princess4real (Sep 25, 2009)

missann said:


> So why is that reason (or any reason) so funny? Do you think it's impossible for a certain group of ladies to come across as immature or simply "extra"? I can understand a mature person not feeling the need to pledge an organization in order to conduct community service or other activities.
> 
> This sentiment is confusing. Again it seems as though you assume everyone desires to join a sorority and is jealous if they aren't in one. You're projecting the same "bashing" dynamic you accuse non-members of exercising.


 
When people say that it seems like they think only immature women join a sorority, IMO.  I'm sorry, but I do find that to be funny if that is what the person believes. I see we are not getting anywhere, enjoy your weekend Miss Ann.


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## Princess4real (Sep 25, 2009)

myoung said:


> Let me start by some organizations no longer say Pledge because of the stigma behind it. This is their way of speaking out against those things that they do NOT believe in.
> 
> I think that what Princess4Real might have been trying to say is that if a person does not want to join a certain organization for whatever reason then there isn't anything wrong with that....clearly there is something for everyone and this is the reason why there are a variety of organizations. But in the meantime, don't try to put yourself on a pedestel or more importantly, down others in order to justify your reason for not wanting to join. If the mature person was really interested in the organization and their mission they would look at the big picture and possibly wait to join a grad chapter instead of downing the entire Organization or organizations. If not, maybe they can just find another one (a Church ministry, NAACP, educational field or whatever) that is more in line with their interests.
> 
> ...


 
Exactly!


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## NitaChantell (Sep 28, 2009)

I'm soooooooo excited about this thread!!! I am seriously considering two NPHC Sororities, but I'm sooo indecisive.I'm doing A LOT of research, but it can go both ways! I have a few questions for you ladies in BLGOs:
1.How did you chose? Like, how did you know "this is for me?"
2.What about hazing..it's supposed to be illegal...but I hear a lot of scary/crazy things on my campus
3. What's the purpose of social isolation??????
4.Why does it cost so freaking much????????????????


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## Mai Tai (Oct 5, 2009)

I am not greek but I agree with the fact that regardless of what organization you choose, whether it is a GLO, a professional or social org., etc the key is that you have to pray about it first.

I think we live in a world where anything secret, hidden, or privileged is automatically deemed evil.  Instead of people having their own beliefs, and respecting those of others, many people find comfort in condemning others, thus exhaulting(sp) themselves.  It is such a hypocrisy.

If I understand the tone of this thread correctly then I can conclude that all GLO are evil-doing organizations, that are rooted in satanism and the occult because members take a vow, are sworn to secrecy, and wear letters and symbols?  Was that the whole point of the thread?  Or was this subject matter introduced so that Non-greek Christians, can learn about Christians in GLOs and hopefully form some sort of understanding that can help someone decide whether joining a sorority is a good choice to make?

Were the extreme religious views in this thread meant for people who take other types of vows also?  Are we supposed to go through life never making promises to anyone or anything in fear of being struck down?

What about those who take marriage vows?  Or the soldier who pledges to protect his country?  Should we not pledge allegiance to the flag in grade school?  Should Obama be wearing a cross on the lapel of his suit jacket, instead of the American flag?  

If one can vow to a marriage in the PRESENCE of GOD, recite an oath of loyalty to the Republic of the United States of America to remain one nation UNDER GOD, then why can't one join a sorority/fraternity still PRAISE GOD?


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## Princess4real (Oct 5, 2009)

Mai Tai said:


> I am not greek but I agree with the fact that regardless of what organization you choose, whether it is a GLO, a professional or social org., etc the key is that you have to pray about it first.
> 
> I think we live in a world where anything secret, hidden, or privileged is automatically deemed evil. Instead of people having their own beliefs, and respecting those of others, many people find comfort in condemning others, thus exhaulting(sp) themselves. It is such a hypocrisy.
> 
> ...


 
AMEN!


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## divya (Oct 5, 2009)

Mai Tai said:


> I am not greek but I agree with the fact that regardless of what organization you choose, whether it is a GLO, a professional or social org., etc the key is that you have to pray about it first.
> 
> I think we live in a world where anything secret, hidden, or privileged is automatically deemed evil.  Instead of people having their own beliefs, and respecting those of others, many people find comfort in condemning others, thus exhaulting(sp) themselves.  It is such a hypocrisy.
> 
> ...



Marriage and sorority/fraternity life are not comparable for purposes of this discussion. The first is an institution given to humanity by God, the second is not. I believe we stand in dangerous ground when we demote Divine institutions to the level of human ones...

ETA: Under God was added to the Constitution in 1954, and it is not required for one to recite the pledge.


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## LovinLocks (Nov 5, 2009)

*Ex "Ooooh ooooper" here*

Yeah, it is!   

I haven't even read the entire thread but I am almost sure some good Christian here answered the why-fors.  Read any post about allegiance and there you have it.

This was "interesting" for me to acknowledge 'cause nobody was more 'down' for DST than I. Yet, I love it when the Bible speaks of being "a two-edged sword; discerning intentions of the heart".  God's word ain't no joke.


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## LovinLocks (Nov 5, 2009)

msa said:


> *Please please please, if you have scriptures, share them. PLEASE. I've been asking over and over and over again and no one has shared any.* I want to know if I missed something or if I read something and just didn't take it to heart. This discussion would have been much richer if it had been based on scripture from start to end, and not opinion.



Okaaay ya wanna talk scripture lemme take a stab at this, please. I have counted no less than 13 scriptures and could go on and on, but the discerning individual will see.   These scriptures were chosen based upon the reader having inside knowledge of what sorority/fraternity pledging is allllll about and keeping it real.

Jehovah’s Jealousy. Jehovah describes himself as “a God *exacting exclusive devotion*.” (Ex 20:5, ftn; De 4:24; 5:9; 6:15) He also says: “Jehovah, whose name is Jealous, he is a jealous God.” (Ex 34:14) Over what and with what kind of jealousy? Not with the envious, selfish jealousy of humans. It is a jealousy, a zeal or ardor for his holy name, concerning which he himself says: “I will show exclusive devotion for my holy name.”—Eze 39:25.

The Scriptures make it clear that, to please God, one must “flee from idolatry.” (1 Cor. 10:14) It is also well known that the second of the Ten Commandments says: “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth. You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, because I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion.” (Ex. 20:4, 5) Yet national emblems bear such likenesses, and they are viewed as sacred, which means that saluting them takes on a religious significance. As pointed out by Arnold Toynbee, it is worship that is given to the flag; and, bearing this out, the governor of Virginia in the United States not long ago declared: “I not only respect, I worship the flag of my country.” In the light of these facts it can be seen that it is not out of disrespect for the flag, but out of obedience to Jehovah God, that Christians refrain from saluting the flag.

But, someone may protest, how can you say that flags come under that Scriptural prohibition when the Bible itself shows that even the Israelites had ensigns or standards around which their three-tribe divisions gathered while in the wilderness? (Num. 2:2) In this connection the comment made in McClintock and Strong’s Cyclopædia is of interest. After discussing the Hebrew words used, it says: “Neither of them, however, expresses the idea which ‘standard’ conveys to our minds, viz. a flag.” Furthermore, they were not viewed as sacred, nor were any ceremonies associated with their use. They simply served the practical purpose of signs, showing the people where to gather.

NATIONAL ANTHEMS​Standing while the national anthem is played carries with it a significance similar to saluting the flag. In fact, the flag is frequently displayed when the anthem is played, so that, to Jehovah’s witnesses, participation in one ceremony would be comparable to participation in the other.

In this connection the Bible records an incident that is very much in point. The third chapter of Daniel reports that in ancient Babylon King Nebuchadnezzar set up an image, a symbol of the State, and commanded the people to worship it when certain music was played. It was in effect a patriotic ceremony, and participation was viewed as evidence of loyalty. Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, three faithful Hebrew servants of God, refused to participate, not because of any disloyalty to the State but because they reserved their worship for Jehovah God, who requires exclusive devotion. When officials took steps to punish them, Jehovah unmistakably demonstrated his approval of the course of his servants by delivering them unsinged from the fiery furnace.

Oftentimes national anthems are, at least in part, hymns or prayers that have been set to music. They give expression to petitions or praise to God. For that reason, as reported in the New York Times of August 30, 1962, after the United States Supreme Court had ruled that school officials could not compose a prayer and then have the students repeat it as part of their school activities, the school board involved in the case wanted to adopt part of the national anthem as the official school prayer.

Since the matter of prayer is involved in the national anthem, what the Bible has to say on this subject is also pertinent. It is true that there are many religious leaders who regularly in their churches pray for the various institutions of the world and who would therefore see nothing amiss in a patriotic anthem that expressed like sentiments. However, those who are governed by the Word of God cannot pray for the perpetuation of a system that the Bible shows to be out of harmony with God and for that reason due to pass away. (Jas. 4:4; 1 John 2:17) They recall God’s command to his prophet Jeremiah, who lived in the midst of a people who professed to serve God but whose society was permeated with stealing, murdering, committing of adultery, false swearing and idolatry: “Do not pray in behalf of this people, neither raise in their behalf an entreating cry or a prayer nor beseech me, for I shall not be listening to you.” (Jer. 7:9, 16; 11:14; 14:11) The situation today is not at all unlike the one that prevailed in Jeremiah’s time, and Christians wisely take note of God’s specific command regarding prayer under such circumstances. They also are aware of the precedent that Jesus Christ set when he said: “I make request, not concerning the world.” (John 17:9) Therefore, it is not out of any self-righteousness on their part, but in imitation of Christ and out of obedience to God that Jehovah’s witnesses refrain from indicating their participation in the sentiments of the occasion by standing when the national anthem is played.

Of course, it is true that not all national anthems include petitions to God. Some are war songs extolling the country and recounting the nation’s fight for independence or the wars fought to preserve its sovereignty. But this does not change the situation as far as the Witnesses are concerned. They cannot exult over the wars of any nation. They are governed by the inspired scripture that says: “Though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly.” (2 Cor. 10:3, 4) They submit to the judgment of God that requires his people to be at peace. As foretold at Isaiah 2:4:God “will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears . . . neither will they learn war any more.” All this emphasizes the fact that Christians are to be no part of the world.  This is as Jesus said it would be. With reference to his followers he declared: “They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.” (John 17:14)


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## msa (Nov 6, 2009)

^^^LovinLocks, maybe I'm just dense and not making the connection, but what does that article have to do with the subject at hand?


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## LovinLocks (Nov 6, 2009)

msa said:


> ^^^LovinLocks, maybe I'm just dense and not making the connection, but what does that article have to do with the subject at hand?



Hello msa,

Your question just made me realize something. I started out by saying _"These scriptures were chosen based upon the reader having inside knowledge of what sorority/fraternity pledging is allllll about and keeping it real."_  Well other people's pledging experience and knowledge may have been unlike mine (duh, to self).  So, the article may seem like gobblety gook.  I was trying to respond without dogging out sorority practices (again which is why I was targeting folk with knowledge of pledging which is not too far fetched from what many have seen portrayed in the media).  So, even going by that example alone exclusive devotion (as far as Christianity is concerned) and as far as scripture goes to one . . . Jehovah God.  The article goes on to discuss idolatry . . . again, I can not speak for everyone's Greek experience however I have firsthand knowledge that it is ripe with idolatry among other things.  That's what the article has to do with whether or not Frats and Sor. are against Christianity.


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## msa (Nov 6, 2009)

LovinLocks said:


> Hello msa,
> 
> Your question just made me realize something. I started out by saying _"These scriptures were chosen based upon the reader having inside knowledge of what sorority/fraternity pledging is allllll about and keeping it real."_  Well other people's pledging experience and knowledge may have been unlike mine (duh, to self).  So, the article may seem like gobblety gook.  I was trying to respond without dogging out sorority practices (again which is why I was targeting folk with knowledge of pledging which is not too far fetched from what many have seen portrayed in the media).  So, even going by that example alone exclusive devotion (as far as Christianity is concerned) and as far as scripture goes to one . . . Jehovah God.  The article goes on to discuss idolatry . . . again, I can not speak for everyone's Greek experience however I have firsthand knowledge that it is ripe with idolatry among other things.  That's what the article has to do with whether or not Frats and Sor. are against Christianity.



Oh ok.

I just wish folks who keep pointing to scripture would just make some clear arguments about it. 

Maybe it is that everyone's Greek experience is different. Since becoming a Delta I haven't been involved in any idol worship or devotion to anything other than God, but that's just me.

Hmm. If you want to pm me and talk about specifics that would be great (since I don't want to put private stuff out for the public to see).


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## LovinLocks (Nov 6, 2009)

Yeah, I know what you mean msa.  Here's some food for thought since I believe many of the Greek practices are shared . . . some things that are idolatrous may not be considered such due to ignorance.  

Think about this . . . how many times, when it comes to theocratic discussions, have your heard someone say, "Well, I believe . . . !"    Oft times people can/will explain away their actions, their thoughts or whatever by saying, "I believe".  But, when idolatry is considered from God's standpoint it may cause surprise (in those who know no better) that what they are doing is tantamount to idolatry which is detestable to God.  On that note I'm outta this Forum. Yaw'll take care.

LL


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## msa (Nov 6, 2009)

LovinLocks said:


> Yeah, I know what you mean msa.  Here's some food for thought since I believe many of the Greek practices are shared . . . some things that are idolatrous may not be considered such due to ignorance.
> 
> Think about this . . . how many times, when it comes to theocratic discussions, have your heard someone say, "Well, I believe . . . !"    Oft times people can/will explain away their actions, their thoughts or whatever by saying, "I believe".  But, when idolatry is considered from God's standpoint it may cause surprise (in those who know no better) that what they are doing is tantamount to idolatry which is detestable to God.  On that note I'm outta this Forum. Yaw'll take care.
> 
> LL



Well can you come back and give me an explanation of what idolatry is from God's standpoint? From what I understand I'm not supposed to have any gods before Him or make any idols and worship them. I'm not seeing how membership does that I guess.

It's not that I'm trying to explain away my actions, I'm just trying to see where they are wrong. Is it in singing a song? wearing letters? going to meetings? Maybe I am just ignorant...if I am, help me out.


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## LovinLocks (Nov 6, 2009)

msa said:


> Well can you come back and give me an explanation of what idolatry is from God's standpoint? From what I understand I'm not supposed to have any gods before Him or make any idols and worship them. I'm not seeing how membership does that I guess.
> 
> It's not that I'm trying to explain away my actions, I'm just trying to see where they are wrong. Is it in singing a song? wearing letters? going to meetings? Maybe I am just ignorant...if I am, help me out.



IDOL, IDOLATRY
​An idol is an image, a representation of anything, or a symbol that is an object of passionate devotion, _whether material or imagined._ Generally speaking, idolatry is the veneration, love, worship, or adoration of an idol. It is usually practiced toward a real or supposed higher power, whether such power is believed to have animate existence (as a human, an animal, *or an organization) *or is inanimate (as a force or lifeless object of nature). *Idolatry generally involves some form, ceremony, or ritual.*
[more in your PM area, dahlin'].

Thought the following was interesting:
http://pentecostalplace.wordpress.c...re-greek-letter-organizations-for-christians/


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## msa (Nov 6, 2009)

LovinLocks said:


> IDOL, IDOLATRY
> ​An idol is an image, a representation of anything, or a symbol that is an object of passionate devotion, _whether material or imagined._ Generally speaking, idolatry is the veneration, love, worship, or adoration of an idol. It is usually practiced toward a real or supposed higher power, whether such power is believed to have animate existence (as a human, an animal, *or an organization) *or is inanimate (as a force or lifeless object of nature). *Idolatry generally involves some form, ceremony, or ritual.*
> [more in your PM area, dahlin'].
> 
> ...



What is an idol? This says an idol can be:
-an image
-a representation of anything
-a symbol that is an object of passionate devotion (whether real or imagined).
-a real or supposed higher power (ex: human, animal, organization, force, object from nature, etc.).

What is idolatry? This says idolatry is:
-veneration, love, worship, or adoration of an idol
-form, ceremony, or ritual

Ok so if you take the greek organization as the idol and its rituals/ceremonies as idolatry then I can see the issue.

Here's where we disagree...I don't believe something is an idol just because it exists. In order for it to be an idol, I have to consider it so or act in a way that makes it an idol in my life. While I can see how that's true for some members, I don't think it's true for everyone. That's why I don't think membership automatically equates to idolatry.


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## LovinLocks (Nov 6, 2009)

msa said:


> While I can see how that's *true for some* members,



Hmmm, that statement begs the question "Why would a true Christian subject themselves to the unnecessary association of anyone (individual or group) that engages in such behavior" in accordance with scripture (see below)?

*2 Corinthians 6:14-18*
14 Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 

15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Be′li·al? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever?

16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I shall reside among them and walk among [them], and I shall be their God, and they will be my people.” 

*17 “‘Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take YOU in.’” *

18 “‘And I shall be a father to YOU, and YOU will be sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah the Almighty.”
 



> I *don't think it's true for everyone*. That's why I don't think membership automatically equates to idolatry.



Good night, my hunny bunny is on the line.


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## msa (Nov 6, 2009)

LovinLocks said:


> Hmmm, that statement begs the question "Why would a true Christian subject themselves to the unnecessary association of anyone (individual or group) that engages in such behavior" in accordance with scripture (see below)?




First, I hate with a passion the term "true Christian". I can't judge whether anyone is a true Christian by looking at their actions, the only person who can judge is God. 

Anyway, let's be real. Christians associate with people all day every day with people who commit idolatry...friends, other christians, family members, and themselves. The fact is, I can't judge whether someone is making the organization their idol and it's not my place to do so. Just like any other group I'm a part of, I separate myself from the people who I don't want to be around...that may include people who seem to be idolators, but it can also include those who have other behaviors as well.

My point is...membership does not = idolatry. And, I can't tell who is an idolator just by looking. From all the scriptures I've seen, it appears to depend on the person and what place they give the organization in their life. If anything, the scriptures presented have shown me exactly what I need to avoid. If it's a problem for another's spiritual walk, then I respect that. It's just not a problem for mine.


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## LovinLocks (Nov 7, 2009)

star2008 said:


> *3) Secrecy about the internal workings of an organization is not inherently evil, and many different entities require it. Oaths and vows are not inherently evil either, so I'm not seeing the problem there. Members of the armed forces have to take an oath. Doctors take an oath. The president took an oath. *  It's the type of oath, at least the one I know I took that I took issue with.  Even before I got out, I used to ask myself why the founders chose to use greek symbols, letters, terms?  And what was the meaning behind the process, why we had to go through certain things.  After going back and looking at what I went through and comparing it to things that happened in the bible my answer was that there is a natural world, the one we live in, and there is a spiritual world.  So things that happen in the natural world have a great spiritual impact that we don't see.
> 
> Hmmm.....Let's see some scriptures that were potent to me.
> 
> ...



Star,

Had I read your post yesterday I most likely would not have wasted my energies with all the posts that I wrote.  You hit the nail on the head.  Try as I might to be politically correct in saying my experience may not have been had by some others the bottom line is, I know my experience was typical.   _



			t's the things that are not so obvious that are the most dangerous.
		
Click to expand...

 _    Yes, spiritually dangerous and insidious even!

Take care all.


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