# "Christians" scare me



## Finewine (Nov 29, 2007)

First, let me state that I am a Christian ( in the sense that I believe in the trinity and that Jesus died for my salvation), but whenever I see an event conducted by Christians, or related to Christianity, I steer clear of it. For example, there is a Christian Medical Ministry group at my school, and I have always wanted to attend, but my first thought is "are they going to plot to blow up abortion buildings or something?" I know it's extreme, and I'm kind of ashamed to say it, but I'm just being honest. This is true in regards to this forum as well; this is my first post in here, and pretty much my first visit. I came because I saw a thread that someonw posted about whether or not to go to the OT and ENT forum. The Christian in me feels that this is obviously the best choice if one wants to stay on the Christian path, so I decided that maybe I should come to my Christian sisters and seek a little help/understanding. 

The main reason that I feel this way about Christian gatherings is that I feel that a lot of Christians condemn/judge others when really that's up to God.  As for me, I am a virgin, but I do not condemn fornicators, I am against abortion for myself, but I am pro-choice in general, and I am heterosexual, but I do not condemn homosexuals. I constantly seek to strengthen my relationship with the Lord and follow in the footsteps of Jesus, but I honestly hold the belief that the loving others (which includes respecting their opinions even if I disagree with them) supercedes everything else. 

I think I'm kind of ranting here, but I just wanted to know if you all walk and talk in the Christian spirit, and if so, what exactly does that mean to you?


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## kbragg (Nov 29, 2007)

Well I think that assume a Medical Ministry would be plotting to blow up abortion clinics is IMO just as bad as someone saying all Muslims are terrorists.

As far as Christians "judging," it's not that we judge or condemn anyone, it's that God has already judged and ondemned it as sin and just as Jesus did, it is our job to proclaim the Word of God, even if it's not all the fluffy "Jesus Loves Me Happy Joy Joy" versus. I find your perspective on love interesting. I believe that if you truly love some one, the biggest disservice you can do is to keep the Truth from them. Millions of people will die and go to hell in 2008 because Christians didn't have the courage to tell them the truth. It doesn't have to be in a mean, hateful way, but we at least owe it to the lost to do as JESUS commanded and fulfill the Great Commission. 

Your worst enermy is someone who knows the truth but won't tell it to you. Let me ask you, if your best friend was doing drugs, or cutting, or doing something to themselves that could literally kill them, would you just sit back quietly and let them kill themselves, or would you love them enough, to exhort them to stop? Sin has the power to not only destroy the flesh, but the soul as well, for eternity, so why as Christians is it looked upon as unloving to do that for someone. I thank God that someone had the courage to tell me that sin was sin and the fact that I said a little prayer when I was 12, cried in church a couple times, and got water Baptised did not guarantee me a  ticket to heaven, unlike what the modern day teaches. I was still IN sin. I continued in it because sin is made so light of because people are afraid of "offending" people and "losing members" but this false watered down Gospel is sending MILLIONS of people to hell each year. Church going people at that. 

The Bible tells us to examine ourselves to see if we're in the faith. Does the fruit of our life reflect true repentence? Or do we still live like the world everyday and "play church" on Sunday? I really wish Christians would truly love the souls of men and not just worry about being "liked."

I got so convicted yesterday. I went to a mid week service and the message was on being an Ambassador For Christ, and I know I have been falling short of that. The Lord brought to mind my young cousin. He just got married and has a new baby. He called me 2 times before he was shipped off to Iraq. He's "churched" but he's not saved. Here God had given me opportunities to share the true Gospel with my cousin and I did not take them. Now he's in Iraq. If he dies over there, wow, how that will weigh on my spirit that I had the chance to share the Lord with him, and didn't take it.

He doesn't need the "Jesus loves me" message, he needed to be called to repentance to be saved. That's one issue I take with modern day Sunday school. The focus is Jesus loves you, you are a child of God etc. They have no concept of sin, repentance, self sacrifice, dying to self, and being a true follower of Christ, and as a result these kids grow up thinking they're Christians and they're not. They think they're saved and they're not. And the church and their parents don't love them enough to tell them the truth!

To me, loving someone is telling them the truth, even if it, hurts, even if they don't like it. Because God's Word will not return to Him void and surely they will THANK you for loving them enough to tell them the truth. I'm not taking about acting all crazy sreaming repent! I'm talking, just as you would do an intervention for a friend who was doing drugs, or being beaten, we need to intervine for the lost.

Sorry, so long, but this is what was on my heart when I read your post.


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## cheetarah1980 (Nov 29, 2007)

kbragg said:


> Well I think that assume a Medical Ministry would be plotting to blow up abortion clinics is IMO just as bad as someone saying all Muslims are terrorists.
> 
> As far as Christians "judging," it's not that we judge or condemn anyone, it's that God has already judged and ondemned it as sin and just as Jesus did, it is our job to proclaim the Word of God, even if it's not all the fluffy "Jesus Loves Me Happy Joy Joy" versus. I find your perspective on love interesting. I believe that if you truly love some one, the biggest disservice you can do is to keep the Truth from them. Millions of people will die and go to hell in 2008 because Christians didn't have the courage to tell them the truth. It doesn't have to be in a mean, hateful way, but we at least owe it to the lost to do as JESUS commanded and fulfill the Great Commission.
> 
> ...


 
I do agree with you that keeping the truth of God's Word to ourselves is selfish. However, I just don't remember Christ spreading his truth the way many Christians do today. When he passed by Matthew, who was a tax collector (the most vile type of Jew in Jesus' day), he didn't say, "You're going to hell. You need to repent. Stop being a tax collector so you can hang with me." No, not at all. He just said, "come follow me." And Matthew dropped what he was doing and followed. I find that in trying to preach God's word, we try to show love by condemning and judging first. Honestly, people aren't going to even hear you if they feel attacked or judged. The fact that you're right doesn't matter. A book I recently read, "The Celebration of Discipline," said that true submission is giving up the right to be right. As Christians, we're often so pressed to make sure everyone knows that we have the truth and we're gonna share it whether they like it or not that we don't submit to those we're trying to minister to.  Jesus himself submitted to his followers when he washed their feet at the Pashach meal. He even washed Judas' feet knowing full well that man would betray him. How many times have we as Christians truly behaved like Christ when following the Great Commission? Maybe if we showed Christ's love to them by meeting people's practical needs without even mentioning God, sin, Christ, repentence, etc. they might just ask us themselves.


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## Nefertiti0906 (Nov 29, 2007)

cheetarah1980 said:


> I do agree with you that keeping the truth of God's Word to ourselves is selfish. However, I just don't remember Christ spreading his truth the way many Christians do today. When he passed by Matthew, who was a tax collector (the most vile type of Jew in Jesus' day), he didn't say, "You're going to hell. You need to repent. Stop being a tax collector so you can hang with me." No, not at all. He just said, "come follow me." And Matthew dropped what he was doing and followed. I find that in trying to preach God's word, we try to show love by condemning and judging first. Honestly, people aren't going to even hear you if they feel attacked or judged. The fact that you're right doesn't matter. A book I recently read, "The Celebration of Discipline," said that true submission is giving up the right to be right. As Christians, we're often so pressed to make sure everyone knows that we have the truth and we're gonna share it whether they like it or not that we don't submit to those we're trying to minister to. Jesus himself submitted to his followers when he washed their feet at the Pashach meal. He even washed Judas' feet knowing full well that man would betray him. How many times have we as Christians truly behaved like Christ when following the Great Commission? Maybe if we showed Christ's love to them by meeting people's practical needs without even mentioning God, sin, Christ, repentence, etc. they might just ask us themselves.


 

Good Post.  I feel that we have A LOT to learn from Jesus' ministry


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## kbragg (Nov 29, 2007)

cheetarah1980 said:


> I do agree with you that keeping the truth of God's Word to ourselves is selfish. However, I just don't remember Christ spreading his truth the way many Christians do today. When he passed by Matthew, who was a tax collector (the most vile type of Jew in Jesus' day), he didn't say, "You're going to hell. You need to repent. Stop being a tax collector so you can hang with me." No, not at all. He just said, "come follow me." And Matthew dropped what he was doing and followed. I find that in trying to preach God's word, we try to show love by condemning and judging first. Honestly, people aren't going to even hear you if they feel attacked or judged. The fact that you're right doesn't matter. A book I recently read, "The Celebration of Discipline," said that true submission is giving up the right to be right. As Christians, we're often so pressed to make sure everyone knows that we have the truth and we're gonna share it whether they like it or not that we don't submit to those we're trying to minister to. Jesus himself submitted to his followers when he washed their feet at the Pashach meal. He even washed Judas' feet knowing full well that man would betray him. How many times have we as Christians truly behaved like Christ when following the Great Commission? Maybe if we showed Christ's love to them by meeting people's practical needs without even mentioning God, sin, Christ, repentence, etc. they might just ask us themselves.


 
First of all, I mentioned over and over and over in my post, I'm not talking about going buck wild on someone scream repent sinner!But the example you used is just one of many. When the rich young ruler came to Jesus and said "What must I do to get enternal life." Notice Jesus didn't just say "Follow me." in that instance. He showed the man his heart, his sin. And the man chose not to follow him. Jesus had/has the ability to perceive the hearts of men, something we do not have. Jesus offered grace to the humble and the Law to the proud to convict them and lead them to repentence. Jesus instructed Nicodemas that he must be born again. Jesus told the woman to go and sin no more. The Jews at that time wre taught the law. They KNEW what sin was. Jesus told the woman caught in the act of adultery go and sin no more. She was already humble, she already knew she had sinned, her heart was prepared for the message of grace. Not so with many people today.

Unfortunately the watered down "gospel" message the church is feeding people today is to take sin lightly. There's no call the repentence. Not only that, not all the disciples were "saved". Jesus said to Peter, that satan desired to sift him as wheat....and WHEN thou art converted....notice Peter, was so sure he was sold out to Christ, yet he denied Him 3 times. THEN he was converted. THEN he saw himself for who he really was and could throw himself onthe mercies of Christ.

In the church today, there's no humility. People don't think they're really all that bad, and it's no wonder! Look at their examples. Pastors flirting with the other sisters in church, "mother's" of the church outside smoking in the parking lot and playing the lotto. "Christian Parents" watching Oprah, and Maury, but never cracking open the Bible. So of ccourse with that example, people think "oh I'm no different than anyone else". This is the issue. There is no DIFFERENCE between the world and the Christian. This should not be. 

It is only by getting back to the Truth, seeing the severity of sin, that true repentance can come, thus being born again. God cannot be even in the presence of sin, yet we see it as "not that bad....not like I killed anyone." Or "It was just a stapler from my office, they have plenty, not like I robbed a bank."

The Truth of the matter is Jesus Christ, God manifested in the flesh, suffered and died on the cross to pay for our crimes. He took upon ourselves the punishment that was meant for us, so that we can be reconcilled with God and now in turn we can be reconcillers! If people don't have a true concept of what sin really is, then the Cross is foolishness, nothing more than another story. But when we can honestly examine ourselves and see we ARE sinners, THEN and only then can we see WHY we need a savior. Then true rebirth happens. Then a true change of heart occurs. Then it's not a matter of "Christians can't have fun" but now it's "How could I do something like this to my Lord who took upon His blameless self the punishment for my crime? How can I crucify Him afresh?"

Anyway, I know it's not a popular message, and people would rather hear the fluffy stuff that makes them feel good, but it's a much needed message.

If you ladies haven't checked out this site yet you should: www.wayofthemaster.com


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## kbragg (Nov 29, 2007)

Nefertiti0906 said:


> Good Post. I feel that we have A LOT to learn from Jesus' ministry


 
I do too, but we also need to look at the WHOLE New Testament and not just pick and choose from the Gospels. Jesus's job was not to convert sinners because he had not yet completed the process for reconcilliation. We need to look to what Jesus sais and the diciples did AFTER the Resurrection. Jesus came to earth to defeat death, hell, and the grave. To destroy the power of sin and create a path of reconcilliation to the Father. This was His mission. ALL of the Bible is God's Word, not just the red letter part. Jesus is the Word made flesh. All of it.


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## Shimmie (Nov 29, 2007)

I'm coming back to this thread...I'm in the middle something right now and have to finish it.

But let me say this...

Once again, the enemy is trying to put Christianity on the 'chopping block'.   I mean Come ON!  Since when do REAL Christians blow up abortion clinics/buildings.   Just because someone goes around labeling or calling themselves a Christian doesn't mean that they are a Christian.

What is it that just because we do not advocate abortion, that makes us a terriorist?  Or because we do not advocate the 'ACT' of homosexuality, that makes us homophobic or judgemental and/or intolerant.

The irony is that 'other' persons/cultures/groups can have THEIR beliefs and are PUSHING them upon us and our children and expect us not to object to it.  

Christians do not blow up buildings.  Christians do not harm other lives.  Christians are not terriorists.   

Jesus made it plain, "You will know them by their fruit."   "Them" being fruitful of Jesus meaning Chrisitians.  * Not imposters.* 

finewine83 realize that satan's biggest target and objective is to discredit God and all that He stands for.  If you have 'fear' than that is NOT of God.  For God has not given us the spirit of fear, but the spirit of power, love and of a Sound Mind.  As as a Christian, you have no business being fearful, knowing God is on your side.   You have the Holy Spirit to lead and guide you into ALL Truth and He and only He will give you the gift of discerning what's right, what's wrong, what's true in HIM.  

I'm sick of the devil and his mess.  I've just about had it with this foolishness that 'we' as Christians are the enemy and the bad guys.  That we as Chrisitians are forcing our beliefs upon others.   That's a bunch of foolishness in comparison to what the world system is consistantly forcing upon us each and every moment of the day.  

Look at the mess in the Media.  Are there any descent movies or family television shows.  Listen to the music industry.  The music videos.  And our schools are being infiltrated with just as much foolishness.  Homosexuality is literally being shoved down our throats where we now 'have' to accept it as a normal lifestyle????   Yet we can't live our own.  We're told not to pray in schools, not even privately.  

Since when is the love of God something for a Christian to be fearful of?  The devil is a liar and I can see straight through his attempts to bring yet another negative attack against Christianity.  

I come against this mess in Jesus's Name.  And I am not playing games.  All satan wants is for someone else to justify another lie that Christianity has no merit or sacredness.  

Bottomline, Christianity has nothing to be fearful of and it never will.


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## cheetarah1980 (Nov 29, 2007)

kbragg said:


> First of all, I mentioned over and over and over in my post, I'm not talking about going buck wild on someone scream repent sinner!But the example you used is just one of many. When the rich young ruler came to Jesus and said "What must I do to get enternal life." Notice Jesus didn't just say "Follow me." in that instance. He showed the man his heart, his sin. And the man chose not to follow him. Jesus had/has the ability to perceive the hearts of men, something we do not have. Jesus offered grace to the humble and the Law to the proud to convict them and lead them to repentence. Jesus instructed Nicodemas that he must be born again. Jesus told the woman to go and sin no more. The Jews at that time wre taught the law. They KNEW what sin was. Jesus told the woman caught in the act of adultery go and sin no more. She was already humble, she already knew she had sinned, her heart was prepared for the message of grace. Not so with many people today.
> 
> Unfortunately the watered down "gospel" message the church is feeding people today is to take sin lightly. There's no call the repentence. Not only that, not all the disciples were "saved". Jesus said to Peter, that satan desired to sift him as wheat....and WHEN thou art converted....notice Peter, was so sure he was sold out to Christ, yet he denied Him 3 times. THEN he was converted. THEN he saw himself for who he really was and could throw himself onthe mercies of Christ.
> 
> ...


 
Girl, don't even get me started on the watered down gospel that passes for Christianity nowadays.  Ugghhh.  Sin and the need for repentence is swept under the rug and needs to be brought to the forefront of our message again.  But notice that before Jesus pointed out the condition of the young ruler's heart, the man first asked, "what must I do to have eternal life?"  Often times we point out the condition of someone's heart/life without even being asked.  I think that's why many people, even Christ followers themselves, find born again/spirit filled/evangelical Christians to be scary. 
It's like this...as Christians we often don't love people just to love them.  We love them with the hope of saving them, when that's really not our job.  Yes we are to proclaim the gospel, but the conversion is all God's doing.  I will be so bold as to say many Christians love with ulterior motives (whether that motive be good or bad is irrelevant).  I know from personal experience that I've been more receptive to reproof, correction, and exhortations from people I already had true fellowship/relationship/community with than from people who were just out to prove that they're right and I'm wrong and I need to repent.


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## kbragg (Nov 29, 2007)

cheetarah1980 said:


> Girl, don't even get me started on the watered down gospel that passes for Christianity nowadays. Ugghhh. Sin and the need for repentence is swept under the rug and needs to be brought to the forefront of our message again. But notice that before Jesus pointed out the condition of the young ruler's heart, the man first asked, "what must I do to have eternal life?" Often times we point out the condition of someone's heart/life without even being asked. I think that's why many people, even Christ followers themselves, find born again/spirit filled/evangelical Christians to be scary.
> It's like this...as Christians we often don't love people just to love them. We love them with the hope of saving them, when that's really not our job. Yes we are to proclaim the gospel, but the conversion is all God's doing. I will be so bold as to say many Christians love with ulterior motives (whether that motive be good or bad is irrelevant). *I know from personal experience that I've been more receptive to reproof, correction, and exhortations from people I already had true fellowship/relationship/community with than from people who were just out to prove that they're right and I'm wrong and I need to repent*.


 
Ok, I think this is where we're getting crossed up. I think I may be personalizing what your saying about the APPROACH many take and not the technique itself. I believe this is where discernment comes in. I believe you can be a missionary in your own zip code. I believe this is WHY God places us in the jobs, the neighborhoods, the areas we are in. So we can reach those within our center of influence. It's not all door knocking and open air preaching, though that is very effective and has it's place for those CALLED to it, however we care share our faith in a way that is still loving. That's why I used the example of a friend. A stranger on the street would not have the same opportunity as a friend would (though God will use whom He willeth.) It's our job to plant the seed of faith, and God's the give the increase.

@ The bolded, I don't seeing proving someone wrong as loving, because that is based in pride, not love. As far as "waiting" for them to ask us first, I doubt that will happen today. We've been Christians for a long time now..has anyone ever just walked up to you and said "Hey girl, how can I get the hook up on that eternal life thang?" You better say no or Ima call you a liar!With Jesus, it was known he was the Messiah, the culture is very different now. While I would never walk up to a homosexual and say "You're going to hell," if I had a close friend or relative, I would share with them from God's Word (never my own words or opinions) what it says about their lifestyle. I've heard testimonies of former homosexuals whose friends had the courage to do that, and now they're on the pathway to righteousness, lives transformed, delivered from bondage. There's nothing more precious that we as believers can share with sinners than our faith.


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## kbragg (Nov 29, 2007)

Shimmie said:


> I'm coming back to this thread...I'm in the middle something right now and have to finish it.
> 
> But let me say this...
> 
> ...


 
Preach it Prophetess Shimmie


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## cheetarah1980 (Nov 29, 2007)

kbragg said:


> Ok, I think this is where we're getting crossed up. I think I may be personalizing what your saying about the APPROACH many take and not the technique itself. I believe this is where discernment comes in. I believe you can be a missionary in your own zip code. I believe this is WHY God places us in the jobs, the neighborhoods, the areas we are in. So we can reach those within our center of influence. It's not all door knocking and open air preaching, though that is very effective and has it's place for those CALLED to it, however we care share our faith in a way that is still loving. That's why I used the example of a friend. A stranger on the street would not have the same opportunity as a friend would (though God will use whom He willeth.) It's our job to plant the seed of faith, and God's the give the increase.
> 
> @ The bolded, I don't seeing proving someone wrong as loving, because that is based in pride, not love. As far as "waiting" for them to ask us first, I doubt that will happen today. We've been Christians for a long time now..*has anyone ever just walked up to you and said "Hey girl, how can I get the hook up on that eternal life thang?" You better say no or Ima call you a liar!*With Jesus, it was known he was the Messiah, the culture is very different now. While I would never walk up to a homosexual and say "You're going to hell," if I had a close friend or relative, I would share with them from God's Word (never my own words or opinions) what it says about their lifestyle. I've heard testimonies of former homosexuals whose friends had the courage to do that, and now they're on the pathway to righteousness, lives transformed, delivered from bondage. There's nothing more precious that we as believers can share with sinners than our faith.


 
Whatchu mean you would call me a liar?Nah you're right, no one walks up to me and says those words.  But I have had a friend or two ask me questions about my faith and why I do the things that I do and believe what I believe.  I use those opportunities to witness because the door is open.  While I'm not always that great at it, I try to make my life my biggest testimony.  People get curious and want to know more and I share with them.  It may not convert them on the spot, but I know I've planted a seed that could possibly germinate 5 days to 5 years from now.

I actually now remember one girl who used to read my blog on a regular basis and one of my posts was about my thoughts on God.  We talked frequently over e-mail and IM and she brought up how she didn't like that Christians called everyone a sinner.  She went on about how she always tried to treat people fairly, didn't steal, murder, rape, pillage (you know the list).  I used the opportunity to bring to her attention the often overlooked sins like materialism, lying (even the little white ones), gossiping, being manipulative etc.  I showed her that no matter what we as humans are ALL sinners cause none of us reach God's righteousness so that's why we all need forgiveness and repentence.  Did she fall on her knees and accept Christ as her savior and turn away from her sin that instant?  Not so much...but I know that I gave her a word that has the potential to grow in time.  

That's what I mean when I say waiting to be asked.  If someone is asking, it means they definitely want to hear what you have to say...they may not like it. But at the very least they want to hear it.  When someone doesn't want to hear it, it's like the seeds that were thrown on the rocks...they just get washed away with the rain cause there's NO fertile ground for it to take root in.


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## Shimmie (Nov 29, 2007)

kbragg said:


> Preach it Prophetess Shimmie


I guess I'm a little sensitive with this issue...

OT:  I just noticed, congratulations on your new baby...Awwwww, baby # 3.  I can't wait until he/she is here.  I thank God for your fruitful vine and that the fruit of your womb is eternally blessed.  No weapon formed against you shall prosper and your delivery will be swift and with ease and with a quick recovery.  In Jesus's name, Amen and Amen.  

God bless you and your beautiful husband and family, Lady K.  I mean this with all of my heart.  :heart2:


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## gone_fishing (Nov 29, 2007)

Cosign all that Shimmie said.

It seems to me that people take that "do not judge" and run haywire with it. I don't think people really understand what that means so let me post something to explain.

It seems that whenever one person confronts another person over an issue, the statement "Do not judge!" comes up. Christians are often accused of "judging" in contradiction to what the Bible says whenever they speak out against a sinful activity. However, that is not the meaning of the Scripture verses which state, "Do not judge." When Jesus told us not to judge (Matthew 7:1), He was telling us not to judge hypocritically. Matthew 7:2-5 declares, "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, Let me take the speck out of your eye when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

In Matthew 7:2-5, Jesus warns against judging someone else for their sin when you yourself are sinning even worse. That is the kind of judging Jesus commanded us not to do. If a believer sees another believer sinning, it is their Christian duty to lovingly and respectfully confront the person with their sin (Matthew 18:15-17). This is not judging, but rather pointing out the truth in hope of bringing repentance in the other person (James 5:20). We are to speak the truth in love (Ephesians 4:15). We are to proclaim what God's Word says about sin. 2 Timothy 4:2 instructs us, "Preach the Word ; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage — with great patience and careful instruction." We are to "judge" sin, but always with the goal of presenting the solution for sin and its consequences - the Lord Jesus Christ (John 14:6).

I don't believe Jesus condones "extreme" behavior such as bombing abortion clinics, etc. He allows us free well even if that will takes us to hell. However, righteous indignation and anger at some sin on the part of a christian is not sinful in my opinion.

God is angry (Psalm 7:11; Mark 3:5), and believers are commanded to be angry (Ephesians 4:26). Two Greek words are used in the New Testament for our English word “anger.” One (orge) means “passion, energy;” the other (thumos) means “agitated, boiling.” Webster defines anger as “excessive emotion, passion aroused by a sense of injury or wrong;” this injury may be to us or to someone else. Biblically, anger is God-given energy intended to help us solve problems. Examples of biblical uses of anger include Paul confronting Peter because of his wrong example in Galatians 2:11-14, David being upset over hearing Nathan the prophet sharing an injustice (2 Samuel 12), and Jesus getting angry over how some of the Jews had defiled the Gentiles’ place of worship at God’s temple in Jerusalem (John 2:13-18). I remember years back a former pastor of mine getting upset and speaking to a civic group that was teaching youngsters to play poker (gamble) in the hall of a mall.

But anger turns to sin when it is selfishly motivated (James 1:20), when God’s goal is distorted (1 Corinthians 10:31), or when anger is allowed to linger (Ephesians 4:26-27).

I've known Jesus to turn over a table a time or two but he's never killed anyone over their choices so no, I don't condone that. But, I feel as if I'm not doing my personal duty if I do not try to gentley restore someone who is caught in error. I'd want someone to do the same for me!


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## Nefertiti0906 (Nov 29, 2007)

kbragg said:


> I do too, but *we also need to look at the WHOLE New Testament and not just pick and choose from the Gospels*. Jesus's job was not to convert sinners because he had not yet completed the process for reconcilliation. We need to look to what Jesus sais and the diciples did AFTER the Resurrection. Jesus came to earth to defeat death, hell, and the grave. To destroy the power of sin and create a path of reconcilliation to the Father. This was His mission. ALL of the Bible is God's Word, not just the red letter part. Jesus is the Word made flesh. All of it.


 
I think you misunderstood my statement.  I didn't say that we don't have to look at the other parts of the bible, which is one book (both old and new testament).


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## Shimmie (Nov 29, 2007)

adequate said:


> Cosign all that Shimmie said.
> 
> It seems to me that people take that "do not judge" and run haywire with it. I don't think people really understand what that means so let me post something to explain.
> 
> ...


Hi Angel...  Excellent post...excellent and annointed. 

And you KNOW *I* have more coming... 

Here's the thing.  People only want 'our' Jesus as long as it lets them still do what they want to do, which is 'play games' with life and the sacredness of it.   As long as they can please their fleshly desires, wallow in their choices of sin, all is 'cool' until the word comes forth and convicts them; Then all of a sudden, we're a judgemental Christian. 

We're not stupid.  As long as people want to continue to do what they want to do which is 'convenient' with them, Jesus is fine.  And that's what the big fuss is about with those who oppose Christianity.  They want to stay in sin and never intend to come out of it and be a real Christian.  Hence the attack upon us...

Like I said, we're not stupid...the real deal is right there.  Christians are fine until the 'Truth' is spoken.  Naysayers don't want to hear the Truth, because they do not want to change from what they want to do.    

As always, your words were quite adequate with scripture to back it up.


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## kbragg (Nov 29, 2007)

Nefertiti0906 said:


> I think you misunderstood my statement. I didn't say that we don't have to look at the other parts of the bible, which is one book (both old and new testament).


 
Oh I know girl, I wasn't directing that towards your statement at all. I was agreeing and expanding upon the point. Homosexuals constantly say "well Jesus never directly spoke again homosexuality" as if the rest of the Word is irelevant


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## janiebaby (Nov 29, 2007)

I haven't really read the responses on here or the entire OP for that matter but I'll still throw in a nickel. I do understand how someone could be a bit put off by religious people. Some people can intimidate you either directly or indirectly and make you feel like you need to know every story, book, verse in the religious text. I have a muslim friend who feels like some muslims can be like this also so I think that it happens in every religion. 

As a Christian, I know that I have to practice love, that means loving God, his Word, myself and others. That means not judging people, not using harsh words, and making people feel welcome in my presence. I think that when you come across people that are not practicing love, that you should love them by praying for them and not taking it personally because they need to strengthen their walk with the Lord and it has nothing to do with you. You should also ask the Lord to make you less judgemental of others. 

And finally, please realize that all people are different and have their little quirks about them including you and me. Try to find people who have similar interests as you, which is harder to do in a group, but rest assured there are people just as put off and afraid as you are elsewhere in the Church. Most often it is easy to spot these people and when you do spot them maybe you can introduce yourself. 

Hope I made sense, I'm doing too many things at once.


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## gradygirl (Nov 29, 2007)

finewine83 said:


> First, let me state that I am a Christian ( in the sense that I believe in the trinity and that Jesus died for my salvation), but whenever I see an event conducted by Christians, or related to Christianity, I steer clear of it. For example, there is a Christian Medical Ministry group at my school, and I have always wanted to attend, but my first thought is "are they going to plot to blow up abortion buildings or something?" I know it's extreme, and I'm kind of ashamed to say it, but I'm just being honest. This is true in regards to this forum as well; this is my first post in here, and pretty much my first visit. I came because I saw a thread that someonw posted about whether or not to go to the OT and ENT forum. The Christian in me feels that this is obviously the best choice if one wants to stay on the Christian path, so I decided that maybe I should come to my Christian sisters and seek a little help/understanding.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
As a Christian I do not condemn anyone becaue I have no heaven or hell to put anybody in. But also as a child of God I cannot condone certain things either. When I first started going to church I felt condemned and judged because I was caught up in whatever they were speaking against and did not want to hear the truth because I liked what I was doing. Because someone told me the truth I am here today. I thank God they did not change their message to suit me so I would feel better in my mess. God hates fornication, abortion, and homosexuality. He loves the sinner but he hates the sin. I'm glad no one sugar coated it for me because I would be in hell right now. For me condemnation bought about a change in my life, Did the preacher really judge or condemn me? No, He spoke the word of truth and my heart condemned me because I was living a life full of sin. Thank God for his son Jesus and Thank God for those who teach his word. I am mindful about how I talk to people about the Lord because his scripture says through love and kindness have I drawn thee but we have to tell people the truth. No matter how it makes us feel Gods word is his word and it will not change we are the ones that have to change.


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## Shimmie (Nov 29, 2007)

gradygirl said:


> As a Christian I do not condemn anyone becaue I have no heaven or hell to put anybody in. But also as a child of God I cannot condone certain things either. When I first started going to church I felt condemned and judged because I was caught up in whatever they were speaking against and did not want to hear the truth because I liked what I was doing. Because someone told me the truth I am here today. I thank God they did not change their message to suit me so I would feel better in my mess. God hates fornication, abortion, and homosexuality. He loves the sinner but he hates the sin. I'm glad no one sugar coated it for me because I would be in hell right now. For me condemnation bought about a change in my life, Did the preacher really judge or condemn me? No, He spoke the word of truth and my heart condemned me because I was living a life full of sin. Thank God for his son Jesus and Thank God for those who teach his word. I am mindful about how I talk to people about the Lord because his scripture says through love and kindness have I drawn thee but we have to tell people the truth. No matter how it makes us feel Gods word is his word and it will not change we are the ones that have to change.


Beautifully shared and the Truth!  I also sense the love in it. 

The enemy is sooooooo cunning with this "Christian" declaration such as, I don't do such and such, yet I don't judge others who do." Since when are the weapons of our warfare as Christians comprised of wet noodles, which have no strength to stand against the enemy. 

What has Pro-Choice done for humanity and for the good of women. They've actually become more promiscuious with their sexuality. They've become more bold with sleeping whenever with whoever, for there is an 'escape' clause called legalized abortion for any reason deemed desired. 

What has homosexuality done for humanity? Granted, no human being, be he or she gay or heterosexual, should be mistreated. And all humans have the right to treated as such...a human being. I do not advocate brutality, hate crimes, nor angry slurs and harsh names upon any human being. Homosexuals are preciuous human beings and deserve human rights and love and respect as human beings. 

But to teach to my children that homosexuality is a way of life and tell my children that I'm wrong for speaking against it and to condemn me for such is beyond wrong. 

How is it that schools can NOW teach pro-homosexuality, pro-choice, and yet anti-prayer and anti-God? Something off balance here. How dare the world call Christians the enemy when the real enemy is what the world is trying to do...elminate all that represents God and our faith in Him. It's not Christians using forceful tactics, it's those who oppose us doing all of the forcing of their way of living which is not ours. 

I'm not afraid of 'man' and never will be. I learned a long time ago to put God first for man will always look to himself before He'll look to God.


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## gradygirl (Nov 29, 2007)

Thank You Shimmie, You are such a sweetheart.


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## azul11 (Nov 29, 2007)

cheetarah1980 said:


> Whatchu mean you would call me a liar?Nah you're right, no one walks up to me and says those words. But I have had a friend or two ask me questions about my faith and why I do the things that I do and believe what I believe. I use those opportunities to witness because the door is open. While I'm not always that great at it, I try to make my life my biggest testimony. People get curious and want to know more and I share with them. It may not convert them on the spot, but I know I've planted a seed that could possibly germinate 5 days to 5 years from now.
> 
> I actually now remember one girl who used to read my blog on a regular basis and one of my posts was about my thoughts on God. We talked frequently over e-mail and IM and she brought up how she didn't like that Christians called everyone a sinner. She went on about how she always tried to treat people fairly, didn't steal, murder, rape, pillage (you know the list). I used the opportunity to bring to her attention the often overlooked sins like materialism, lying (even the little white ones), gossiping, being manipulative etc. I showed her that no matter what we as humans are ALL sinners cause none of us reach God's righteousness so that's why we all need forgiveness and repentence. Did she fall on her knees and accept Christ as her savior and turn away from her sin that instant? Not so much...but I know that I gave her a word that has the potential to grow in time.
> 
> That's what I mean when I say waiting to be asked. If someone is asking, it means they definitely want to hear what you have to say...they may not like it. But at the very least they want to hear it. When someone doesn't want to hear it, it's like the seeds that were thrown on the rocks...they just get washed away with the rain cause there's NO fertile ground for it to take root in.


 

I agree. God bless you all.


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## Mahalialee4 (Nov 29, 2007)

kbragg said:


> I do too, but we also need to look at the WHOLE New Testament and not just pick and choose from the Gospels. Jesus's job was not to convert sinners because he had not yet completed the process for reconcilliation. We need to look to what Jesus sais and the diciples did AFTER the Resurrection. Jesus came to earth to defeat death, hell, and the grave. To destroy the power of sin and create a path of reconcilliation to the Father. This was His mission. ALL of the Bible is God's Word, not just the red letter part. Jesus is the Word made flesh. All of it.



The Word says that "No one comes to the Father unless the Spirit (Holy Spirit) draws them." So I assume we need to be led by the Spirit to know when how and to whom to speak a word in "DUE SEASON",  and man does not know that. I guess that is why Revelation emphasized..."Let Him who has an ear hear what the Spirit is saying"...cause my "flesh" could mess up big time, the wrong way the wrong time.  But Isaiah said "Here am I send me"...so it is good to know that there are those who are willing to go WHEN they are ....SENT.   What do you think in this regard? bonjour


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## Finewine (Nov 29, 2007)

kbragg said:


> Well I think that assume a Medical Ministry would be plotting to blow up abortion clinics is IMO just as bad as someone saying all Muslims are terrorists.
> 
> As far as Christians "judging," it's not that we judge or condemn anyone, it's that God has already judged and ondemned it as sin and just as Jesus did, it is our job to proclaim the Word of God, even if it's not all the fluffy "Jesus Loves Me Happy Joy Joy" versus. I find your perspective on love interesting. I believe that if you truly love some one, the biggest disservice you can do is to keep the Truth from them. Millions of people will die and go to hell in 2008 because Christians didn't have the courage to tell them the truth. It doesn't have to be in a mean, hateful way, but we at least owe it to the lost to do as JESUS commanded and fulfill the Great Commission.
> 
> ...


 

First of all, thanks for all the responses Ladies. I'm in the middle of studyin so I haven't read them all yet. I didn't want to abandon my thread though.

I wante to reply to this by saying that I do try to minister to those who aren't saved, but I NEVER condemn or judge the person. I can say that according to the God's word their behavior is wrong, but i would never condemn them to hell. I am not the ultimate judge of their works and behavior so I refrain from doing that. I do this because people tend to tune you out if you come at them in an aggressive or offensive manner which ultimately negates anything that you say. God's love is what brought me to Him and that's how I try to bring others to Him as well.


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## Finewine (Nov 29, 2007)

cheetarah1980 said:


> Girl, don't even get me started on the watered down gospel that passes for Christianity nowadays. Ugghhh. Sin and the need for repentence is swept under the rug and needs to be brought to the forefront of our message again. But notice that before Jesus pointed out the condition of the young ruler's heart, the man first asked, "what must I do to have eternal life?" Often times we point out the condition of someone's heart/life without even being asked. I think that's why many people, even Christ followers themselves, find born again/spirit filled/evangelical Christians to be scary.
> It's like this...as Christians we often don't love people just to love them. We love them with the hope of saving them, when that's really not our job. *Yes we are to proclaim the gospel, but the conversion is all God's doing.* I will be so bold as to say many Christians love with ulterior motives (whether that motive be good or bad is irrelevant). I know from personal experience that I've been more receptive to reproof, correction, and exhortations from people I already had true fellowship/relationship/community with than from people who were just out to prove that they're right and I'm wrong and I need to repent.


 
Cheetarah, you're always on it! ITA with your post especially the bolded. I feel like it's our job to show people the way to God and be there.  They have to be ready and willing to do it on their own.


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## firecracker (Nov 29, 2007)

janiebaby said:


> As a Christian, I know that I have to practice love, that means loving God, his Word, myself and others. That means not judging people, not using harsh words, and making people feel welcome in my presence. I think that when you come across people that are not practicing love, *that you should love them by praying for them and not taking it personally because they need to strengthen their walk with the Lord and it has nothing to do with you. *You should also ask the Lord to make you less judgemental of others.
> 
> And finally, *please realize that all people are different and have their little quirks about them including you and me.*


  ITA.  No one is without sin so all that "oh I'm the real thing and they are not" is some kind of self righteous mental trickery to make themself feel better than.  

Kbraggs you made me spit out my juice from laughing cuz I sholly watch those Maury "you are not the father" shows as well as get my daily biblical/ spiritual read on.


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## Finewine (Nov 29, 2007)

Shimmie said:


> I'm coming back to this thread...I'm in the middle something right now and have to finish it.
> 
> But let me say this...
> 
> ...


 

To clarify, I made that comment about blowing up an abortion clinic, because the abortion clinic a couple of blocks from my campus was blown up (in the name of Christianity) when I was in high school. No, I don't believe that *most* of those of claim to be Christians would do such a heinous crime, but I was being honest in stating that is the first thing that comes to my mind. 

I know that everyone claiming to be Christian really isn't, that's one of the reasons I began this post--- to get the opinons and viewpoints of others.


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## kbragg (Nov 29, 2007)

Mahalialee4 said:


> The Word says that "No one comes to the Father unless the Spirit (Holy Spirit) draws them." So I assume we need to be led by the Spirit to know when how and to whom to speak a word in "DUE SEASON", and man does not know that. I guess that is why Revelation emphasized..."Let Him who has an ear hear what the Spirit is saying"...cause my "flesh" could mess up big time, the wrong way the wrong time. But Isaiah said "Here am I send me"...so it is good to know that there are those who are willing to go WHEN they are ....SENT. What do you think in this regard? bonjour


 
ITA with what you said! You MUST be led by the Spirit!


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## kbragg (Nov 29, 2007)

firecracker said:


> ITA. No one is without sin so all that "oh I'm the real thing and they are not" is some kind of self righteous mental trickery to make themself feel better than.
> 
> Kbraggs you made me spit out my juice from laughing cuz I sholly watch those Maury "you are not the father" shows as well as get my daily biblical/ spiritual read on.


 
IMO it's not "self righteousness". There is NONE righteous, not even one. However Jesus did say that we shall know them by their fruits, and while sanctification IS a process, when somone truly realizes what Christ sacrifice for them really means, I just can't comprehend how someone could continue in sin, knowing what Jesus suffer for. I'm not talking about a slip or fall, I'm talking about, intentional, premeditated sin. How could anyone do that to Him?


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## Finewine (Nov 29, 2007)

janiebaby said:


> I haven't really read the responses on here or the entire OP for that matter but I'll still throw in a nickel. I do understand how someone could be a bit put off by religious people. Some people can intimidate you either directly or indirectly and make you feel like you need to know every story, book, verse in the religious text. I have a muslim friend who feels like some muslims can be like this also so I think that it happens in every religion.
> 
> As a Christian, I know that I have to practice love, that means loving God, his Word, myself and others. That means not judging people, not using harsh words, and making people feel welcome in my presence. I think that when you come across people that are not practicing love, that you should love them by praying for them and not taking it personally because they need to strengthen their walk with the Lord and it has nothing to do with you. You should also ask the Lord to make you less judgemental of others.
> 
> ...


 
Girl, you made perfect sense. sweet post. Thanks


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## Finewine (Nov 29, 2007)

gradygirl said:


> As a Christian I do not condemn anyone becaue I have no heaven or hell to put anybody in. But also as a child of God I cannot condone certain things either. When I first started going to church I felt condemned and judged because I was caught up in whatever they were speaking against and did not want to hear the truth because I liked what I was doing. Because someone told me the truth I am here today. I thank God they did not change their message to suit me so I would feel better in my mess. God hates fornication, abortion, and homosexuality. He loves the sinner but he hates the sin. I'm glad no one sugar coated it for me because I would be in hell right now. For me condemnation bought about a change in my life, Did the preacher really judge or condemn me? No, He spoke the word of truth and my heart condemned me because I was living a life full of sin. Thank God for his son Jesus and Thank God for those who teach his word. I am mindful about how I talk to people about the Lord because his scripture says through love and kindness have I drawn thee but we have to tell people the truth. No matter how it makes us feel Gods word is his word and it will not change we are the ones that have to change.


 
I agree with this. It seems like you have a happy medium. You can state that someone's actions are wrong, and help to show them the way to God without condemning which is what I wished more people chose to do.


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## Finewine (Nov 29, 2007)

kbragg said:


> IMO it's not "self righteousness". There is NONE righteous, not even one. However Jesus did say that we shall know them by their fruits, and while sanctification IS a process, when somone truly realizes what Christ sacrifice for them really means, I just can't comprehend how someone could continue in sin, knowing what Jesus suffer for. I'm not talking about a slip or fall, I'm talking about, intentional, premeditated sin. How could anyone do that to Him?


 
Sometimes Satan just has a bigger grip, and it can be hard to let him go! A lot of people always put off salvation for later, never believing that their end is near. I mean, Satan lets you do what you want to, when you want to, and how you want to. God has rules and regulations, some of which are hard to follow. It's usually easier to take Satan's path.


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## PanamasOwn (Nov 29, 2007)

This was a VERY interesting thread... I am not sure who said mentioned the topic of Christians judging "hypocritcally" but here is my take on it. Since we are born into sin, and are sinners ourselves, even as Christians, we HONESTLY don't have a right to judge anyone. Remember God says he sees ALL SIN the SAME. Remember you thinkin of someone inappropriately (sin), you being jealous of someone, even in the slightest bit (sin) killing someone (sin).. You cannot escape sinning, unless you isolate yourself from the world NO ONE is Jesus. he is the ONLY being that can live without sin. therefore those who do judge, do judge hypocritically. I mean there is no way around it. No one here can say that, since I have been re-born I have lived completely and entirely without sin or any kind. And if you believe that you are lying to yourself.

I do believe however, that you can help guide someone into a better life, if it is their choice. Because if we are all supposed to love God and follow him, he would NOT have given us free will and choices. There would be no heaven and hell. Our job is to preach and to teach. Not judge and condemn. Anything forced, will not come out right. Of course if you go up to someone and say, if you dont change you are going to hell, they are going to try to do everything they can, so they DONT go to hell. But are they making that choice because they want to, or simply because they are afraid of the consequences? God wants us to CHOOSE to love him. He wants his followers to TEACH about how good He is and how better their life can be if they follow Him. Some Christians call themselves testifying and walking into malls and telling people they are going to hell if they dont repent today. I dont know about you, but I cant take someone seriously that does that. You arent fooling God by walking up into an establishment and shouting from the rooftops what you know but later on going home and gossiping about Sister such and such. Becoming a Christian is an intimacy that should always be treated as such, even when you are teaching. Many will be called, but few will be chosen. Just because you go slapping folks upside the head with the word, doesnt mean you are doing God's work. Instead you are using it as a vehicle to man your own disapproval of that person's lifestyle.

This isnt directed towards anyone, just my own observations and things that I have come to realize over time through prayer and reading.


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## Nice & Wavy (Nov 29, 2007)

It's all in the approach people.  If there are people telling people "you are going to hell", I'm wondering if the way they were trained was correct.  

Jesus Himself "trained" the disciples on how to share the Kingdom of God with the people.  Some received their words and others didn't.  It still goes on the same way today.  Hell is not wrong to share with people...its the approach in which its done that can scare folks off.  Hell is a real place and was created for the devil and his angels..so man does not need to occupy a place where a devil should be.  Unfortunately, there will be many going there ("broad is the way that leads to destruction...narrow is the gate to everlasting life.) and that's where we come in....we are to be the hands, feet and mouthpiece of God regarding mankind.

We are sinners who are "SAVED" by the Grace of God.  Why are we saved?  What are we doing to help others to get saved?  

The plan of God for His people is for us to tell people that they are sinners and need a Savior.  Some people feel that they don't need a savior, that they can do it all themselves.  Some feel that they do need the Savior, but are not ready right now, because they have to live their lives.  Some people respond favorbly and give their lives to Christ right on the spot, whether we are in a store, on a corner or in Church.  When you talk to people on a daily basis and share with them the Gospel of Jesus Christ, you learn what is needed to be said at that time.

We are to bring people to Jesus and He said that "I will draw all men to myself".  He will make the way of Salvation for them...we are to do our part and that is to preach the message of Salvation.

We as believers must "learn to do well."  It's not something you know, its something you learn by the Holy Spirit teaching you.

Blessings!


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## Shimmie (Nov 30, 2007)

finewine83 said:


> To clarify, I made that comment about blowing up an abortion clinic, because the abortion clinic a couple of blocks from my campus was blown up (in the name of Christianity) when I was in high school. No, I don't believe that *most* of those of claim to be Christians would do such a heinous crime, but I was being honest in stating that is the first thing that comes to my mind.
> 
> I know that everyone claiming to be Christian really isn't, that's one of the reasons I began this post--- to get the opinons and viewpoints of others.


I understand...


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## Shimmie (Nov 30, 2007)

gradygirl said:


> Thank You Shimmie, You are such a sweetheart.


And so are YOU....


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## star (Dec 1, 2007)

I agree with most of ladies here. You cannot live in fear about what you think may happen and all people are not alike and Christians are special people regardless of what level they are on. It is our job to pray for those who make mistakes and try to humbly and gently restore if we are lead by God if someone has sinned. Christians do not have to judge people their actions do the judging. I actually give people permission to judge me as the bible states but righteous judgement. In other words judge me with God's word and not your own opininon. But no one can give me judgement which is the punishment that goes with the sin but God and/or a judge in a court of law.


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## Favor2000 (Dec 2, 2007)

Just remember fear is the oppostie of faith. We must learn to pray for one another more to avoid people hurting one another.


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## Mahalialee4 (Dec 2, 2007)

PanamasOwn said:


> This was a VERY interesting thread... I am not sure who said mentioned the topic of Christians judging "hypocritcally" but here is my take on it. Since we are born into sin, and are sinners ourselves, even as Christians, we HONESTLY don't have a right to judge anyone. Remember God says he sees ALL SIN the SAME. Remember you thinkin of someone inappropriately (sin), you being jealous of someone, even in the slightest bit (sin) killing someone (sin).. You cannot escape sinning, unless you isolate yourself from the world NO ONE is Jesus. he is the ONLY being that can live without sin. therefore those who do judge, do judge hypocritically. I mean there is no way around it. No one here can say that, since I have been re-born I have lived completely and entirely without sin or any kind. And if you believe that you are lying to yourself.
> 
> I do believe however, that you can help guide someone into a better life, if it is their choice. Because if we are all supposed to love God and follow him, he would NOT have given us free will and choices. There would be no heaven and hell. Our job is to preach and to teach. Not judge and condemn. Anything forced, will not come out right. Of course if you go up to someone and say, if you dont change you are going to hell, they are going to try to do everything they can, so they DONT go to hell. But are they making that choice because they want to, or simply because they are afraid of the consequences? God wants us to CHOOSE to love him. He wants his followers to TEACH about how good He is and how better their life can be if they follow Him. Some Christians call themselves testifying and walking into malls and telling people they are going to hell if they dont repent today. I dont know about you, but I cant take someone seriously that does that. You arent fooling God by walking up into an establishment and shouting from the rooftops what you know but later on going home and gossiping about Sister such and such. Becoming a Christian is an intimacy that should always be treated as such, even when you are teaching. Many will be called, but few will be chosen. Just because you go slapping folks upside the head with the word, doesnt mean you are doing God's work. Instead you are using it as a vehicle to man your own disapproval of that person's lifestyle.
> 
> This isnt directed towards anyone, just my own observations and things that I have come to realize over time through prayer and reading.



The term "judge" has a spectrum of meaning....which also includes "forming an opinion...to make a decision about....according to Webster. It would be interesting to know the exact spectrum covered in the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures. The point is "When we observe a behaviour or the fruit of someone's behaviour, walk or talk..." we should "judge or make an opinion about it, we also make a choice of rather or not to imitate or follow their footsteps. Like in Proverbs where it mentions that "the wise see the end or what is ahead and go around it...the simple pass on and are punished." We are to test the spirit of who is speaking or what they are promoting as well.
This is not the judging that "determines who is or is not going to "hell" as they say or that they are forever lost. So yes. I do judge from the aspect of the least part of the spectrum. What are your thoughts on I Corinthians 15:33? Would we or should we not have to make a judgement call on who is or is not "bad company? or even I Corin: 11:31 about personally "judging ourselves"? Of course we would have to take everything in "context" of the Scriptures being quoted.Then there is 1 Corin: 10:1-13: then verses  23-31: 11: re: freedom of believers: In the regard of "judging weightier matters"...what are your thoughts on this Scripture in I Corinthians 5:1-2 and specifically verses 9-13. Now this is heavy stuff and does not leave room for doubt that judging and weighing and decision making are involved here...this really slides across the spectrum of the term "judge" wouldn't you think? But I am looking forward to how you view these last scriptures I mentioned. This is where I got my understanding about judging things inside and not those outside, because that is God's job. The term "judge: judging is indeed a wide spectrum. The one thing that appears to be hands off when it comes to judging as far as God is concerned,  is judging "unbelievers!" 
And while you are in I Corinthinans, what do you think about Chapter 6:1-6.  A little more across the spectrum too. Something to really think about, eh? So we would really have to look at the "judge not least ye be judged" and see what the Scriptures say about what the results will be...Result: "Men will.......(judge you), heap judgement on you. (No one likes to be told they are "wrong, a sinner, or that their conduct is unbecoming or shameful...especially "Christians!"  So how we go about "exercising our judging, choosing, assessing, deciding, rebuking, chastising, should also fall within Scriptural guidelines.  This is what I get out of all of this. bonjour


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## Mahalialee4 (Dec 2, 2007)

star said:


> I agree with most of ladies here. You cannot live in fear about what you think may happen and all people are not alike and Christians are special people regardless of what level they are on. It is our job to pray for those who make mistakes and try to humbly and gently restore if we are lead by God if someone has sinned. Christians do not have to judge people their actions do the judging. I actually give people permission to judge me as the bible states but righteous judgement. In other words judge me with God's word and not your own opininon. But no one can give me judgement which is the punishment that goes with the sin but God and/or a judge in a court of law.



I so agree with your statement "judge me with God's Word" and not with personal opinions. I do believe that part of judging has to do with "rendering a verdict and sentencing" as evidenced in courts of law. Sample: EG. Evidence shows that a car was stolen, you were driving it and outrunning the police. Evidence also shows that you have several prior arrests for auto theft and served time! Also you currently belong to an "auto theft" gang!.Would I want my kid brother to hang with you, NO. and the reason. Obvious. Would I do everything to persuade my sister not to marry you. Of course. I would have judged you as a thief. And if you were a professing Christian to boot!...Run!!!! I would consider you MAJOR BAD ASSOCIATION!!! Or would you think that "judge not least ye be judged" would apply here?  Just curious to know your thoughts, cause That would be a judging or judgement call. However, only the judge can send you away for 20 years so this "judgment or judging thing" is ..DEEP.


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## star (Dec 2, 2007)

Mahalialee4 said:


> I so agree with your statement "judge me with God's Word" and not with personal opinions. I do believe that part of judging has to do with "rendering a verdict and sentencing" as evidenced in courts of law. Sample: EG. Evidence shows that a car was stolen, you were driving it and outrunning the police. Evidence also shows that you have several prior arrests for auto theft and served time! Also you currently belong to an "auto theft" gang!.Would I want my kid brother to hang with you, NO. and the reason. Obvious. Would I do everything to persuade my sister not to marry you. Of course. I would have judged you as a thief. And if you were a professing Christian to boot!...Run!!!! I would consider you MAJOR BAD ASSOCIATION!!! Or would you think that "judge not least ye be judged" would apply here?  Just curious to know your thoughts, cause That would be a judging or judgement call. However, only the judge can send you away for 20 years so this "judgment or judging thing" is ..DEEP.



This is good insite. As an American the bible does say we must *abide by the laws of the land*. In your illustration a person can do all these things and people can cast *an opinion *about them as you described but once they are brought in court of justice they are not viewed by their religion but the evidence. However, on the other hand if they are Christians and maybe an inmatrue Christian God can still see fit to move on the Judges heart to give them a lighter sentence. *Everything for a Christian utimately is in God's hand no matter what level of the Christian walk they are on becasue God knows the reason why things happen.* People are entiteld to their opinion if done tastefully but honeslty speaking their are times I want God and the Judge to throw the book. For me this happens alot when a child is killed or molested but even in this God will have his say. God shows alot of *grace and mercy which none of deserves *but the key for me is stay close to God so if I do something wrong and repent I know utimately God will judge me even through the legal system at times and whatever the outcome my prayer is I learn something and don't look back.

I found it easier to show people they are wrong in God's sight then to share my own opinon and by giving God's word it speaks for itself. But, we always do it with love and respect because it could have been us in that situation.

Lastly, in your example the person was wrong in God's sight and the law of the land. Judging someone is telling them what they did was wrong according to God's word and Judgement is telling them what sentence or punishment they should receive as part of their wrongdoing or sin. People who may judge are not nessesciarly saying what the punish should be they may just be pointing it out. But only God and a court Judge and give people a Judgement or sentence.


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## PanamasOwn (Dec 3, 2007)

star said:


> This is good insite. As an American the bible does say we must *abide by the laws of the land*. In your illustration a person can do all these things and people can cast *an opinion *about them as you described but once they are brought in court of justice they are not viewed by their religion but the evidence. However, on the other hand if they are Christians and maybe an inmatrue Christian God can still see fit to move on the Judges heart to give them a lighter sentence. *Everything for a Christian utimately is in God's hand no matter what level of the Christian walk they are on becasue God knows the reason why things happen.* People are entiteld to their opinion if done tastefully but honeslty speaking their are times I want God and the Judge to throw the book. For me this happens alot when a child is killed or molested but even in this God will have his say. God shows alot of *grace and mercy which none of deserves *but the key for me is stay close to God so if I do something wrong and repent I know utimately God will judge me even through the legal system at times and whatever the outcome my prayer is I learn something and don't look back.
> 
> I found it easier to show people they are wrong in God's sight then to share my own opinon and by giving God's word it speaks for itself. But, we always do it with love and respect because it could have been us in that situation.
> 
> Lastly, in your example the person was wrong in God's sight and the law of the land. Judging someone is telling them what they did was wrong according to God's word and Judgement is telling them what sentence or punishment they should receive as part of their wrongdoing or sin. People who may judge are not nessesciarly saying what the punish should be they may just be pointing it out. But only God and a court Judge and give people a Judgement or sentence.


 

This is more so where I was leaning towards. Judging on the basis of your own personal beliefs and how you live you life, are prefectly ok. BUT you tread very unstable waters when you try to PUSH your beliefs onto someone else. I choose not to judge people that havent directly effected my life. But if you been around me long enough, I can make a decent enough decision if you are bad or good company. In reading the bible, yes, I'm VERY familar with the word as a whole, but I take the ENTIRE bible and use it. Not just some areas. The whole bible is our guide, and many lessons are taught. As a Christian it my job to help those who want to help themselves. But not to forcefully put myself on someone because they are not living a righteous life. As Christians, as the bible as well says, People will see you for your actions. I let me actions speak for me. Talking about something that most people already know, doesnt do anything. They have already made their choice. You help people, who are ignorant to the word. People followed Jesus not because he was a chastiser, or he walked around with his nose in the air. He was humble. He looked for those who were weak, sinners, tax collectors, etc... these were the people that Jesus made himself aquainted with, and within doing so, though his actions, and words, people followed him. If we are to try to be more like Jesus everyday, why areent more people taking this approach?? This is something to think about....


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## Mahalialee4 (Dec 3, 2007)

star said:


> This is good insite. As an American the bible does say we must *abide by the laws of the land*. In your illustration a person can do all these things and people can cast *an opinion *about them as you described but once they are brought in court of justice they are not viewed by their religion but the evidence. However, on the other hand if they are Christians and maybe an inmatrue Christian God can still see fit to move on the Judges heart to give them a lighter sentence. *Everything for a Christian utimately is in God's hand no matter what level of the Christian walk they are on becasue God knows the reason why things happen.* People are entiteld to their opinion if done tastefully but honeslty speaking their are times I want God and the Judge to throw the book. For me this happens alot when a child is killed or molested but even in this God will have his say. God shows alot of *grace and mercy which none of deserves *but the key for me is stay close to God so if I do something wrong and repent I know utimately God will judge me even through the legal system at times and whatever the outcome my prayer is I learn something and don't look back.
> 
> I found it easier to show people they are wrong in God's sight then to share my own opinon and by giving God's word it speaks for itself. But, we always do it with love and respect because it could have been us in that situation.
> 
> Lastly, in your example the person was wrong in God's sight and the law of the land. Judging someone is telling them what they did was wrong according to God's word and Judgement is telling them what sentence or punishment they should receive as part of their wrongdoing or sin. People who may judge are not nessesciarly saying what the punish should be they may just be pointing it out. But only God and a court Judge and give people a Judgement or sentence.



Exactly! Thank you.


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## Mahalialee4 (Dec 3, 2007)

PanamasOwn said:


> This is more so where I was leaning towards. Judging on the basis of your own personal beliefs and how you live you life, are prefectly ok. BUT you tread very unstable waters when you try to PUSH your beliefs onto someone else. I choose not to judge people that havent directly effected my life. But if you been around me long enough, I can make a decent enough decision if you are bad or good company. In reading the bible, yes, I'm VERY familar with the word as a whole, but I take the ENTIRE bible and use it. Not just some areas. The whole bible is our guide, and many lessons are taught. As a Christian it my job to help those who want to help themselves. But not to forcefully put myself on someone because they are not living a righteous life. As Christians, as the bible as well says, People will see you for your actions. I let me actions speak for me. Talking about something that most people already know, doesnt do anything. They have already made their choice. You help people, who are ignorant to the word. People followed Jesus not because he was a chastiser, or he walked around with his nose in the air. He was humble. He looked for those who were weak, sinners, tax collectors, etc... these were the people that Jesus made himself aquainted with, and within doing so, though his actions, and words, people followed him. If we are to try to be more like Jesus everyday, why areent more people taking this approach?? This is something to think about....


True. I would not for one moment force myself on anyone. Eventually people reap what they sow. I also believe as I stated before..."no one comes to the Father unless the Spirit draws them."..speaking of "unbelievers". Our part: We are called to preach. We are called to "pray on behalf of saints everywhere"...we are called "to snatch people out of the fire while hating the garment that is stained", "to call people back to repentance and to have a "heart for people that has love and a desire that all be saved and that none shold be destroyed" cause the Father is like that.
This is where brokenness and weeping and praying on behalf of our people, nation, neighbors etc comes in. The Word states that if we judge without mercy, we will receive judgement without mercy. You hate the sin, the waste, mourn and groan in your spirit. We are definitely to walk the walk and not just talk the talk. There are times however, when we are told to "rebuke before all onlookers"...we are not to wink at these things. (This is referring to professed believers). In fact, Ezekial gave a stern warning about having "blood on our hands" if we do not warn people. As for walking around with our noses in the air this does no good. As for Jesus, in some cases He was a stern chastizer...with the money changers in the temple, He got physical in demonstrating His hatred for what they were doing; He got very descriptive when talking to the people about the religious leaders and directly to them..."vipers...murderers...whitewashed sepulchres...etc. etc. (Matthew). As for our being more like Jesus. Well based on Scripture He was a very interesting well rounded individual and PERFECT. He asked them some good questions..."How will you flee from the judgement of Gehenna?"...He stated to some that it was "better that they hang a millstone around their necks...than to stumble these little ones!"  JESUS IS MY HERO!!!!! 
Jesus was balanced mentally, physically and above all spiritually. He was perfect in everyway and no sin was found in Him. Too often, some Christians  want to just emphasize the "humble, meek, silent Jesus" and not face the truth that He was a champion of justice, and not a compromiser. He laid matters bare, and people had to make their own choices to change, be changed or remain and die in their sins. Sometimes speaking the truth is the only thing that sets people free. As the Word mentions..."Better a public rebuke than a secret love". We cannot hang the whole message of Jesus and the gospel on "judge not least ye be judged".  That is one of the reasons I believe that many people do not have a conscience left...because they have been lulled to sleep with pat statements like "God understands...and no one has a right to (judge you) tell you anything". They get to the point that "the Word of God " has no effect and they lose all "fear" of God and coming judgement. Why? I believe one of the reasons is that some professed Christians water down God the Father, Jesus" and many glaring Bible truths, and never bring up Scriptures that obviously "cut like a two edged sword" and tip toe around the truth and soft soap things and will not call right right, and wrong wrong as stated by the Scriptures. So they cop out with their favorite pat (part of a scripture)..."Judge Not!..."or *"Touch not mine anointed!" especially when one dares to criticise religious leaders....totally forgetting 1st John 2:27! 
As for only helping those that want to help themselves....that gets dicey, cause we would have to "judge" in order to determine that. We would have to have accurate information and personal awareness to judge that as well who was making efforts to help themself or not. So to protect ourselves, we have to "judge the fruit" but still be a "good neighbour".
I totally agree with you that "all of the Bible" should speak on matters, not just special select scriptures because it (the Bible) is "beneficial for teaching, reproving, and setting matters straight." It is really a blessing to me to be sharing with persons who hold the Bible in high esteem and respect His Word.  Thank you for all your comments. I do understand where you are coming from, and I know that it is God that saves and not us and that it is not by might, and not by power (force) but by His Spirit. I realize that as a person, I am powerless  to do anything about the situation in my own strength. It is so important to allow ourselves to be led by the Spirit, in these trying troublesome times.


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## PanamasOwn (Dec 3, 2007)

Mahalialee4 said:


> True. I would not for one moment force myself on anyone. Eventually people reap what they sow. I also believe as I stated before..."no one comes to the Father unless the Spirit draws them."..speaking of "unbelievers". Our part: We are called to preach. We are called to "pray on behalf of saints everywhere"...we are called "to snatch people out of the fire while hating the garment that is stained", "to call people back to repentance and to have a "heart for people that has love and a desire that all be saved and that none shold be destroyed" cause the Father is like that.
> This is where brokenness and weeping and praying on behalf of our people, nation, neighbors etc comes in. The Word states that if we judge without mercy, we will receive judgement without mercy. You hate the sin, the waste, mourn and groan in your spirit. We are definitely to walk the walk and not just talk the talk. There are times however, when we are told to "rebuke before all onlookers"...we are not to wink at these things. (This is referring to professed believers). In fact, Ezekial gave a stern warning about having "blood on our hands" if we do not warn people. As for walking around with our noses in the air this does no good. As for Jesus, in some cases He was a stern chastizer...with the money changers in the temple, He got physical in demonstrating His hatred for what they were doing; He got very descriptive when talking to the people about the religious leaders and directly to them..."vipers...murderers...whitewashed sepulchres...etc. etc. (Matthew). As for our being more like Jesus. Well based on Scripture He was a very interesting well rounded individual and PERFECT. He asked them some good questions..."How will you flee from the judgement of Gehenna?"...He stated to some that it was "better that they hang a millstone around their necks...than to stumble these little ones!" JESUS IS MY HERO!!!!!
> Jesus was balanced mentally, physically and above all spiritually. He was perfect in everyway and no sin was found in Him. Too often, some Christians want to just emphasize the "humble, meek, silent Jesus" and not face the truth that He was a champion of justice, and not a compromiser. He laid matters bare, and people had to make their own choices to change, be changed or remain and die in their sins. Sometimes speaking the truth is the only thing that sets people free. As the Word mentions..."Better a public rebuke than a secret love". We cannot hang the whole message of Jesus and the gospel on "judge not least ye be judged". That is one of the reasons I believe that many people do not have a conscience left...because they have been lulled to sleep with pat statements like "God understands...and no one has a right to (judge you) tell you anything". They get to the point that "the Word of God " has no effect and they lose all "fear" of God and coming judgement. Why? I believe one of the reasons is that some professed Christians water down God the Father, Jesus" and many glaring Bible truths, and never bring up Scriptures that obviously "cut like a two edged sword" and tip toe around the truth and soft soap things and will not call right right, and wrong wrong as stated by the Scriptures. So they cop out with their favorite pat (part of a scripture)..."Judge Not!..."or *"Touch not mine anointed!" especially when one dares to criticise religious leaders....totally forgetting 1st John 2:27!
> As for only helping those that want to help themselves....that gets dicey, cause we would have to "judge" in order to determine that. We would have to have accurate information and personal awareness to judge that as well who was making efforts to help themself or not. So to protect ourselves, we have to "judge the fruit" but still be a "good neighbour".
> I totally agree with you that "all of the Bible" should speak on matters, not just special select scriptures because it (the Bible) is "beneficial for teaching, reproving, and setting matters straight." It is really a blessing to me to be sharing with persons who hold the Bible in high esteem and respect His Word. Thank you for all your comments. I do understand where you are coming from, and I know that it is God that saves and not us and that it is not by might, and not by power (force) but by His Spirit. I realize that as a person, I am powerless to do anything about the situation in my own strength. It is so important to allow ourselves to be led by the Spirit, in these trying troublesome times.


 

I really do appreciate you taking to time to read my entire post and decipher it based upon each thing and not just picking out a few things, and replying based on that. When it comes to issues like this, it is very important to read and understand everything before allowing yourself to say anything..You pointed out some things, that I did not consider before.. very intersting


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## Favor2000 (Dec 3, 2007)

PanamasOwn said:


> This is more so where I was leaning towards. Judging on the basis of your own personal beliefs and how you live you life, are prefectly ok. BUT you tread very unstable waters when you try to PUSH your beliefs onto someone else. I choose not to judge people that havent directly effected my life. But if you been around me long enough, I can make a decent enough decision if you are bad or good company. In reading the bible, yes, I'm VERY familar with the word as a whole, but I take the ENTIRE bible and use it. Not just some areas. The whole bible is our guide, and many lessons are taught. As a Christian it my job to help those who want to help themselves. But not to forcefully put myself on someone because they are not living a righteous life. As Christians, as the bible as well says, People will see you for your actions. I let me actions speak for me. Talking about something that most people already know, doesnt do anything. They have already made their choice. You help people, who are ignorant to the word. People followed Jesus not because he was a chastiser, or he walked around with his nose in the air. He was humble. He looked for those who were weak, sinners, tax collectors, etc... these were the people that Jesus made himself aquainted with, and within doing so, though his actions, and words, people followed him. If we are to try to be more like Jesus everyday, why areent more people taking this approach?? This is something to think about....


 
I can hear what you are saying.


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## star (Dec 3, 2007)

PanamasOwn said:


> This is more so where I was leaning towards. Judging on the basis of your own personal beliefs and how you live you life, are prefectly ok. BUT you tread very unstable waters when you try to PUSH your beliefs onto someone else. I choose not to judge people that havent directly effected my life. But if you been around me long enough, I can make a decent enough decision if you are bad or good company. In reading the bible, yes, I'm VERY familar with the word as a whole, but I take the ENTIRE bible and use it. Not just some areas. The whole bible is our guide, and many lessons are taught. As a Christian it my job to help those who want to help themselves. But not to forcefully put myself on someone because they are not living a righteous life. As Christians, as the bible as well says, People will see you for your actions. I let me actions speak for me. Talking about something that most people already know, doesnt do anything. They have already made their choice. You help people, who are ignorant to the word. People followed Jesus not because he was a chastiser, or he walked around with his nose in the air. He was humble. He looked for those who were weak, sinners, tax collectors, etc... these were the people that Jesus made himself aquainted with, and within doing so, though his actions, and words, people followed him. If we are to try to be more like Jesus everyday, why areent more people taking this approach?? This is something to think about....



I agree with what you are saying and it does depend on circumstances and professions. For instance people come to me frequently for advice and I tell them do you want me to tell you the truth or what you want to hear. Of course, this varies from families, strangers and friends but some of us get asked for help more than others but I do not push or shove anything on anybody because this is unnatural. At my church they always preach that we are the *only bible some people may read*. So it is good to live your life the best you can so we can win people over by your actions. I do counselor and mentor people and have a track record of telling people the truth in love. I do not care for "yes" people but rather for people to tell me the truth in love so I can grow but the key is having God lead you to talk to people and not doing on your own.


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## pearlygurl (Dec 3, 2007)

Mahalialee4 said:


> True. I would not for one moment force myself on anyone. Eventually people reap what they sow. I also believe as I stated before..."no one comes to the Father unless the Spirit draws them."..speaking of "unbelievers". Our part: We are called to preach. We are called to "pray on behalf of saints everywhere"...we are called "to snatch people out of the fire while hating the garment that is stained", "to call people back to repentance and to have a "heart for people that has love and a desire that all be saved and that none shold be destroyed" cause the Father is like that.
> This is where brokenness and weeping and praying on behalf of our people, nation, neighbors etc comes in. The Word states that if we judge without mercy, we will receive judgement without mercy. You hate the sin, the waste, mourn and groan in your spirit. We are definitely to walk the walk and not just talk the talk. There are times however, when we are told to "rebuke before all onlookers"...we are not to wink at these things. (This is referring to professed believers). In fact, Ezekial gave a stern warning about having "blood on our hands" if we do not warn people. As for walking around with our noses in the air this does no good. As for Jesus, in some cases He was a stern chastizer...with the money changers in the temple, He got physical in demonstrating His hatred for what they were doing; He got very descriptive when talking to the people about the religious leaders and directly to them..."vipers...murderers...whitewashed sepulchres...etc. etc. (Matthew). As for our being more like Jesus. Well based on Scripture He was a very interesting well rounded individual and PERFECT. He asked them some good questions..."How will you flee from the judgement of Gehenna?"...He stated to some that it was "better that they hang a millstone around their necks...than to stumble these little ones!"  JESUS IS MY HERO!!!!!
> Jesus was balanced mentally, physically and above all spiritually. He was perfect in everyway and no sin was found in Him. Too often, some Christians  want to just emphasize the "humble, meek, silent Jesus" and not face the truth that He was a champion of justice, and not a compromiser. He laid matters bare, and people had to make their own choices to change, be changed or remain and die in their sins. Sometimes speaking the truth is the only thing that sets people free. As the Word mentions..."Better a public rebuke than a secret love". We cannot hang the whole message of Jesus and the gospel on "judge not least ye be judged".  That is one of the reasons I believe that many people do not have a conscience left...because they have been lulled to sleep with pat statements like "God understands...and no one has a right to (judge you) tell you anything". They get to the point that "the Word of God " has no effect and they lose all "fear" of God and coming judgement. Why? I believe one of the reasons is that some professed Christians water down God the Father, Jesus" and many glaring Bible truths, and never bring up Scriptures that obviously "cut like a two edged sword" and tip toe around the truth and soft soap things and will not call right right, and wrong wrong as stated by the Scriptures. So they cop out with their favorite pat (part of a scripture)..."Judge Not!..."or *"Touch not mine anointed!" especially when one dares to criticise religious leaders....totally forgetting 1st John 2:27!
> As for only helping those that want to help themselves....that gets dicey, cause we would have to "judge" in order to determine that. We would have to have accurate information and personal awareness to judge that as well who was making efforts to help themself or not. So to protect ourselves, we have to "judge the fruit" but still be a "good neighbour".
> I totally agree with you that "all of the Bible" should speak on matters, not just special select scriptures because it (the Bible) is "beneficial for teaching, reproving, and setting matters straight." It is really a blessing to me to be sharing with persons who hold the Bible in high esteem and respect His Word.  Thank you for all your comments. I do understand where you are coming from, and I know that it is God that saves and not us and that it is not by might, and not by power (force) but by His Spirit. I realize that as a person, I am powerless  to do anything about the situation in my own strength. It is so important to allow ourselves to be led by the Spirit, in these trying troublesome times.



I couldn't have said it better


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## Mahalialee4 (Dec 3, 2007)

cheetarah1980 said:


> I do agree with you that keeping the truth of God's Word to ourselves is selfish. However, I just don't remember Christ spreading his truth the way many Christians do today. When he passed by Matthew, who was a tax collector (the most vile type of Jew in Jesus' day), he didn't say, "You're going to hell. You need to repent. Stop being a tax collector so you can hang with me." No, not at all. He just said, "come follow me." And Matthew dropped what he was doing and followed. I find that in trying to preach God's word, we try to show love by condemning and judging first. Honestly, people aren't going to even hear you if they feel attacked or judged. The fact that you're right doesn't matter. A book I recently read, "The Celebration of Discipline," said that true submission is giving up the right to be right. As Christians, we're often so pressed to make sure everyone knows that we have the truth and we're gonna share it whether they like it or not that we don't submit to those we're trying to minister to.  Jesus himself submitted to his followers when he washed their feet at the Pashach meal. He even washed Judas' feet knowing full well that man would betray him. How many times have we as Christians truly behaved like Christ when following the Great Commission? Maybe if we showed Christ's love to them by meeting people's practical needs without even mentioning God, sin, Christ, repentence, etc. they might just ask us themselves.



I agree with you in that our "spirit" should be right when sharing the Word, otherwise it is like ministering "death instead of life". Loud, obnoxious, and disrespectulness to others, "just because we are right", turns people off, for sure and may stumble them. Not the Word, but your behaviour. I would not be impressed to see anyone professing to be a "Christian" or a believer, hanging out in the Mall, and "hollering at people", harassing people" or "interfering with someone who obviously just wants to get as far away from you as possible" or "cornering people and beating them "figuratively" with the Bible. Personally, I keep my distance from those who make a show, to be seen by men, praying on street corners...Jesus talked about that, didn't he, when he said in Matt: 23:5: "Everything they do is for men to see." and "they love to be greeted in the market places and to have men call them  "Rabbi" (teacher)".  I have been  loudly accosted publicly myself, and subjected to a one way barrage of loud talk and trust me, I excused myself and kept it moving! The individual had "problems....the spirit was "off" and they were not looking for INTERACTION. People like that come across as very excitable and unpredictable. bonjour


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## firecracker (Dec 4, 2007)

kbragg said:


> IMO it's not "self righteousness". There is NONE righteous, not even one. However Jesus did say that we shall know them by their fruits, and while sanctification IS a process, when somone truly realizes what Christ sacrifice for them really means, I just can't comprehend how someone could continue in sin, knowing what Jesus suffer for. I'm not talking about a slip or fall, I'm talking about, intentional, premeditated sin. How could anyone do that to Him?


 
I can totally understand where your coming from but all Chrisitan's walk, bad habits, spiritual struggle etc etc isn't the same.  We also don't always know what that person is doing to work on correcting old sins from the outside.  Folks are phony and are more concerned with putting up a front like a good christian when in fact their doing worst stuff than some of the folks totally engrossed in the world and never read the bible.

Old habits are hard to break and remaining focused can be challenging the minute you hit the plantation, streets etc.  Uh cuz I shole can lose my religion at the devils den that I work in but thank God for his mercy and grace cause somebody was gon get shoot.    

A sin is a sin so while one person's sin maybe visible to other, anothers maybe hidden purposely.  We all need to deal with what is real and true.

You asked how could someone do that to God. I would challenge you to ask yourself that cuz I'm sure your path isn't and hasn't been without twist and turns.  

Its a ongoing battle living in the world we live and try to walk in the light.  If we could stay in the house, in the book and church I think we maybe a lil safer but then again some churches can be Peyton Places and unhealthy for ones spirit.  

Christians with that oh she isn't a Christian statements usually forget the lil white lie they just told two seconds ago, the gossip they just spread last week etc.  God knows the real Christians as humans we are bambozzled all the time by supposed devout and finger pointing I got the key to heaven Christians.    Whateva man miss me with that one.


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## azul11 (Dec 6, 2007)

Mahalialee4 said:


> I agree with you in that our "spirit" should be right when sharing the Word, otherwise it is like ministering "death instead of life". Loud, obnoxious, and disrespectulness to others, "just because we are right", turns people off, for sure and may stumble them. Not the Word, but your behaviour. I would not be impressed to see anyone professing to be a "Christian" or a believer, hanging out in the Mall, and "hollering at people", harassing people" or "interfering with someone who obviously just wants to get as far away from you as possible" or "cornering people and beating them "figuratively" with the Bible. Personally, I keep my distance from those who make a show, to be seen by men, praying on street corners...Jesus talked about that, didn't he, when he said in Matt: 23:5: "Everything they do is for men to see." and "they love to be greeted in the market places and to have men call them "Rabbi" (teacher)". I have been loudly accosted publicly myself, and subjected to a one way barrage of loud talk and trust me, I excused myself and kept it moving! The individual had "problems....the spirit was "off" and they were not looking for INTERACTION. People like that come across as very excitable and unpredictable. bonjour


 
I have personally have seen people who have shouted and yelled for people to come save their souls. It did make me wonder what their intent was for their actions? Was it to bring people closer to God or to just to make people have some sort of fear. 

Whenever I have read of people choosing to come to God or even in personally experience of people drawing closer to God it wasn't the shouting loud person who made people visualize this angry God who would make you burn but it was people who said we have a better way for you. Are you sad, or lonely, do you feel an emptyness in your heart, then God can help you. It was always a calm peace, of feeling protected as if the path that you were going was leading you to death but this path was bringing you to life. How in the world are you going to feel that when someone is shouting at you, shoving flyers in your face and telling you you will rot somewhere? erplexed God bless you all.


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## Finewine (Jan 23, 2008)

Shimmie said:


> I understand...


 
Right back at ya Shimmie. 


p.s. sorry to bring up an old thread, but I haven't been here in a while.


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## Shimmie (Jan 23, 2008)

finewine83 said:


> Right back at ya Shimmie.
> 
> 
> p.s. sorry to bring up an old thread, but I haven't been here in a while.


Welcome Back, Angel. 'Happy New Year'  

BTW: We all 'need' breaks....   Is everything okay?  Hope so.


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## shalom (Jan 23, 2008)

"PREACH" "CHURCH" "PREACH"


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## sexyeyes3616 (Jan 24, 2008)

kbragg said:


> Well I think that assume a Medical Ministry would be plotting to blow up abortion clinics is IMO just as bad as someone saying all Muslims are terrorists.
> 
> As far as Christians "judging," it's not that we judge or condemn anyone, it's that God has already judged and ondemned it as sin and just as Jesus did, it is our job to proclaim the Word of God, even if it's not all the fluffy "Jesus Loves Me Happy Joy Joy" versus. I find your perspective on love interesting. I believe that if you truly love some one, the biggest disservice you can do is to keep the Truth from them. Millions of people will die and go to hell in 2008 because Christians didn't have the courage to tell them the truth. It doesn't have to be in a mean, hateful way, but we at least owe it to the lost to do as JESUS commanded and fulfill the Great Commission.
> 
> ...


 
And with someone i care about I hate to see their souls lost. Thats why i tried to witness to my cousin about sin but she didnt recieve it she got offended. But even God gives people free will. So its up to her if she wants to build her spirit man or give into the flesh.


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