# Pope declares all are saved



## Ithacagurl (May 22, 2013)

*Pope declares atheists are also saved???*

"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

“Doing good” the Pope explained, is not a matter of faith: “It is a duty, it is an identity card that our Father has given to all of us, because He has made us in His image and likeness. And He does good, always.”


Text from page http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2013...ace/en1-694445
of the Vatican Radio website

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/201...counter_is_the_foundation_of_peace/en1-694445


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## JaneBond007 (May 22, 2013)

So, Jesus has redeemed all mankind.  Man must receive His gift...but the sacrifice has been made as He died for all.     As I interpret this for my own edification, he is saying that mankind  needs to meet on common ground of doing good and stop killing each other  in the name of G-d or any religion or belief system.  G-d wrote the law  of right and wrong on every heart and since He made every man in His  image, we must emulate G-d by doing good.

Actually, what he said, and within context fully of that statement was...
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(Vatican Radio) *“Doing good” is a principle that unites all humanity, beyond the diversity of ideologies and religions, and creates the “culture of encounter” that is the foundation of peace:* this is what Pope said at Mass this morning at the Domus Santae Martae, in the presence of employees of the Governorate of Vatican City. Cardinal Bechara Boutros Rai, Patriarch of Antioch of the Maronites, concelebrated at the Mass.

*Wednesday’s Gospel speaks to us about the disciples who prevented a person from outside their group from doing good. *“They complain,” the Pope said in his homily, because they say,* “If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party, he cannot do good.” And Jesus corrects them: “Do not hinder him, he says, let him do good.”* The disciples, Pope Francis explains, “were a little *intolerant,” closed off by the idea of ​​possessing the truth, convinced that “those who do not have the truth, cannot do good.” *“This was wrong . . . *Jesus broadens the horizon.”* Pope Francis said, *“The root of this possibility of doing good – that we all have – is in creation”:*

"The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can. He must. Not can: must! Because he has this commandment within him. Instead, this ‘closing off’ that imagines that those outside, everyone, cannot do good is a wall that leads to war and also to what some people throughout history have conceived of: killing in the name of God. That we can kill in the name of God. And that, simply, is blasphemy. *To say that you can kill in the name of God is blasphemy.”
*
“Instead,” the Pope continued, “the Lord has created us in His image and likeness, and has given us this commandment in the depths of our heart: do good and do not do evil”:

"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

“Doing good” the Pope explained, is not a matter of faith: “It is a duty, it is an identity card that our Father has given to all of us, because He has made us in His image and likeness. And He does good, always.”

This was the final prayer of Pope Francis:

"Today is [the feast of] Santa Rita, Patron Saint of impossible things – but this seems impossible: let us ask of her this grace, this grace that all, all, all people would do good and that we would encounter one another in this work, which is a work of creation, like the creation of the Father. A work of the family, *because we are all children of God, all of us, all of us! And God loves us, all of us! *May Santa Rita grant us this grace, which seems almost impossible. Amen.”


Text from page http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/201...counter_is_the_foundation_of_peace/en1-694445
of the Vatican Radio website


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## MrsHaseeb (May 23, 2013)

I almost have no words for this... Everyone is saved as long as they "do good"? The message of the Bible is REPENTANCE and coming to Jesus Christ as the only way to the Father. Doing all the good in the world means nothing for a person who hasn't repented and turned to Jesus the Christ to serve God the Father through Him. All this about tolerance basically says Jesus is not the only way to the Father so continue in your false religion and simply "do good" and Jesus will accept you based on your good works... Sounds just like the "Gospel" of Delusion(Inclusion) Carlton Pearson is pushing.


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## MrsHaseeb (May 23, 2013)

No person has the ability within themselves to do good in the eyes of God apart from repentance and being washed and regenerated on the inside by the Holy Spirit so to tell a bunch of people in false religions  that we can all unite in doing good is false teaching. The only place people trying to unite doing good works of themselves will meet is the lake of fire...


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## JaneBond007 (May 23, 2013)

This is why we have "For Catholics" threads...because people don't read critically and end up misinterpreting, misguiding and accusing something as unbiblical.  Forgive this if it seems harsh...the judgments here against what he said are equally, if not more, harsh.  He never said every man will be saved in the end...but that mankind is redeemed.  Unless you read  catholic documents, please don't judge from a place of not knowing.  It's unfair.  Read the entire quote.   Just as you all don't wish for someone to take your words and mince them, taking them out of context, so you should not do to others.


Redemption:

atonement

delivery from sin


Are you saying that this was NOT accomplished by Jesus dying on the cross in His eternal sacrifice?  


John 19:30 
When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.


Or are you angry that Pope Francis is saying considering you all on the same level as all mankind and that you are not intrinsically exceptional for having found Jesus?  He finds _us_...He created _all mankind_ and all are His children.  All do not know His way, however.  Man must be born again.  That's by a decision.  We do  not know when any man makes that final decision and therefore, we should not judge who will be saved in the end.  I don't take too kindly to people mushing up entire quotes for ulterior motives of spitting at our Holy Father nor at catholics the world over.  What's funny here...because it was taken out of context, you glossed over the very thing he was talking about:
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Wednesday's Reading:
*Gospel Mk 9:38-40 *

  John said to Jesus,
“Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in your name,
and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow us.”
Jesus replied, “Do not prevent him.
There is no one who performs a mighty deed in my name
who can at the same time speak ill of me.
For whoever is not against us is for us.” 


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Pope Francis' statement on the Gospel of Mark 9:39-40

*Wednesday’s Gospel speaks to us about the disciples who prevented a person from outside their group from doing good. *“They complain,” the Pope said in his homily, because they say,*  “If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party,  he cannot do good.” And Jesus corrects them: “Do not hinder him, he  says, let him do good.”* The disciples, Pope Francis explains, “were a little *intolerant,”  closed off by the idea of ​​possessing the truth, convinced that “those  who do not have the truth, cannot do good.” *“This was wrong . . . *Jesus broadens the horizon.”* Pope Francis said, *“The root of this possibility of doing good – that we all have – is in creation”:*


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## MrsHaseeb (May 23, 2013)

Hi.. what are you talking about? This wasnt posted in a Catholic thread, at least the title didnt say so. I read the post and responded accordingly. Redemption is deliverance from sin and the penalty of sin. How is the entire mankind redeemed if they are still in sin and Jesus promised death and hell as wages for sin? Jesus' sacrifice was completely sufficient when we repent and accept it. Redemption and salvation go hand in hand. You can't separate the two. 

Are you accusing me of being proud by asking if I am offended with your pope putting me on the level of everyone else? Well... That's not the case. I love everyone because I am willing to tell them that Christ requires repentance. How could you address people in all kinds of false religions and say we will all meet at a certain destination by being good? Jesus didn't command sinners to be good, he commanded them to repent. A sinner can't be good. You can't tell a child of the devil to be good. Why would anyone who really loves others leave them in a false religion and make being good be sufficient? I never once in my post addressed Catholicism or what your beliefs are, I addressed the article. Why exactly are you offended and accusing me of judging your beliefs? As far as "me"... I think very soberly of myself when I think of what I was redeemed from. I am righteous in Christ Jesus, not of myself because my righteousness is as a filthy rag. You can't call a true follower of Christ, a son or daughter of God equal to a sinner in the eyes of God. I don't say that because I feel I'm better than a sinner. I had many days doing things I cringe to think of now... Jesus' message was "Repent because the Kingdom is at hand". That's what we need to be telling the world. Thats love. Please don't do what you accused me of and put words in my mouth or "mince" my words.. Have a great day.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (May 23, 2013)

I re-read it and re-read it, I'm in agreement with you @MrsHaseeb

I beg to differ we are NOT all children of God, 

John 8
*42Jesus said unto them*, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. *44Ye are of your father the devil,* and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God


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## MrsHaseeb (May 23, 2013)

JaneBond007 said:


> This is why we have "For Catholics" threads...because people don't read critically and end up misinterpreting, misguiding and accusing something as unbiblical.  Forgive this if it seems harsh...the judgments here against what he said are equally, if not more, harsh.  He never said every man will be saved in the end...but that mankind is redeemed.  Unless you read  catholic documents, please don't judge from a place of not knowing.  It's unfair.  Read the entire quote.   Just as you all don't wish for someone to take your words and mince them, taking them out of context, so you should not do to others.
> 
> Redemption:
> 
> ...



When the apostles rebuked the man for casting out devils in Jesus' name because he wasn't of their company please note he was doing it in the name (authority) of Jesus. Only Jesus can give power over the enemy so this person was obviously still a disciple of Christ although he didn't travel with the other disciples. You can't apply this to people who practice Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, etc because they have another God. Jesus Christ is not their Lord. You can't be in covenant with the devil and serve Christ too.


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## JaneBond007 (May 23, 2013)

MrsHaseeeb, the redemption stands as it is...you either take it or refuse it.  It has been made.

I'm referring to the charge was made against Pope Francis' statement.  I'm saying that this is why we fought to have a catholic forum and ended up with threads to not have to continually prove that we are biblical when   I didn't accuse anyone of being proud...but put yourselves in our place.  We are not pagans, we are not unbiblical, we don't tell lies about the gospels nor scripture, we don't have traditions that are not sacred (Holy Spirit) and handed down from the apostles who were commissioned by Jesus Himself.  We do not have a false religion and we don't mislead anybody to hell. 

I'm practically crying at this point for this rude and insulting way in which we are constantly bludgeoned on this site.  I understand the misunderstanding...but honestly, THIS IS UNJUST AND UNFAIR.  A quote was taken fully out of context and you all are accusing the Church that Jesus instituted as wrong.  The gates of hell will not destroy our Church.  Take that up with Jesus who said it.  Talk about putting words into people's mouths...of all people...against Pope Francis.  You get your wish...never stepping foot in this anti-catholic "christian" forum again.  The arrogant ignorance is very off-putting to many people who lurk in this forum.  A bit of advice, know what you are talking about before you falsely accuse an entire body of Christ.  Just plain ridiculous.  Nothing has changed, I see.


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## MrsHaseeb (May 23, 2013)

JaneBond007 said:


> MrsHaseeeb, the redemption stands as it is...you either take it or refuse it.  It has been made.
> 
> I'm referring to the charge was made against Pope Francis' statement.  I'm saying that this is why we fought to have a catholic forum and ended up with threads to not have to continually prove that we are biblical when   I didn't accuse anyone of being proud...but put yourselves in our place.  We are not pagans, we are not unbiblical, we don't tell lies about the gospels nor scripture, we don't have traditions that are not sacred (Holy Spirit) and handed down from the apostles who were commissioned by Jesus Himself.  We do not have a false religion and we don't mislead anybody to hell.
> 
> I'm practically crying at this point for this rude and insulting way in which we are constantly bludgeoned on this site.  I understand the misunderstanding...but honestly, THIS IS UNJUST AND UNFAIR.  A quote was taken fully out of context and you all are accusing the Church that Jesus instituted as wrong.  The gates of hell will not destroy our Church.  Take that up with Jesus who said it.  Talk about putting words into people's mouths...of all people...against Pope Francis.  You get your wish...never stepping foot in this anti-catholic "christian" forum again.  The arrogant ignorance is very off-putting to many people who lurk in this forum.  A bit of advice, know what you are talking about before you falsely accuse an entire body of Christ.  Just plain ridiculous.  Nothing has changed, I see.



JaneBond007... My sincerest apologies if you took what I said that way but I'm not at all sure how you took all of that from what I said... I never once bashed Catholicism or your Pope in my post and it wasn't meant to come off as proud either. After reading over my posts I'm still not sure how you took it that way..


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## Nice & Wavy (May 23, 2013)

The scriptures are explicit regarding our salvation in Christ Jesus.  IF the pope declared that all are saved, then that was not spoken correctly in the light of scripture.  If he meant something else, then it should be clarified by him, what he actually meant in order that confusion will not take place.  

I highlighted and enlarged the scripture that specifically says what we were before Christ Jesus and how the blood of Christ brought us near to Him.

*Ephesians 2*
1                 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,                                                2                 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.                                                3                 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.                                                

4                 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,                                                5                 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved ),                                                6                 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,                                                7                 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.                                                

8 *                For by grace you have been saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God ;             **9                 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.*                                                10                 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.                                                11                 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called " Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands -                                                12 *                remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.*                                                13                 *But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.*


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (May 23, 2013)

^^this is one of my favorite scriptures 

Ephesians 2:13
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.


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## Nice & Wavy (May 23, 2013)

> *"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics**.** Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists**.**  Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class!  We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ  has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this  commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path  towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others,  if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by  little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We  must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an  atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”*
> 
> Text from page  http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/201...counter_is_the_foundation_of_peace/en1-694445
> of the Vatican Radio website
> ​



Now that I have read what the pope has said, more than 3 times...he has indicated that ALL MANKIND has been redeemed.  This is not so.  If it was the case, then we would not need a savior in Jesus the Christ.  The Bible tells us that His desire is for "all to come to repentance and for no one to perish."  This implies that we must repent in order for the blood of Christ to cover us from sin so that we won't be separate from God for eternity.  It's only by this 'repentance' that our lives will be changed for the Glory of God.

I pray that there will not be any divisions here in the CF....we all need each other because the days are evil.


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## Nice & Wavy (May 23, 2013)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> ^^this is one of my favorite scriptures
> 
> Ephesians 2:13
> 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.


Mine as well.  I have been studying Ephesians for a while now, and it's important for us to understand Ephesians because of this very thing that has taken place in this thread today.


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## MrsHaseeb (May 23, 2013)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Now that I have read what the pope has said, more than 3 times...he has indicated that ALL MANKIND has been redeemed.  This is not so.  If it was the case, then we would not need a savior in Jesus the Christ.  The Bible tells us that His desire is for "all to come to repentance and for no one to perish."  This implies that we must repent in order for the blood of Christ to cover us from sin so that we won't be separate from God for eternity.  It's only by this 'repentance' that our lives will be changed for the Glory of God.
> 
> I pray that there will not be any divisions here in the CF....we all need each other because the days are evil.



Sis, that's what I was addressing was the false teaching about all mankind being saved and it being a duty of us all to be "good"...  I certainly wasn't attacking anyone. I simply countered the unscriptural teaching.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (May 23, 2013)

Amen!

It certainly is appropriate for this thread.



Nice & Wavy said:


> Ephesians because of this very thing that has taken place in this thread today.


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## sweetvi (May 23, 2013)

Ephesians was the scripture I thought of after reading that statement as well  thank you


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## Nice & Wavy (May 23, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> Sis, that's what I was addressing was the false teaching about all mankind being saved and it being a duty of us all to be "good"...  I certainly wasn't attacking anyone. I simply countered the unscriptural teaching.



Yes, I know.  I wish that it wasn't taken personally by JaneBond007 because I know what you were saying wasn't a direct attack to catholism but that you were addressing the "good" would cause us to be saved.

I'm learning that language is not fundamental.  I believe that when we speak (or type text) that it can be taken out of context to the hearer/reader.  I am learning to be quick to hear/read and slow to wrath.  I am learning that we all have our own interpretations of what the Word of God says, but...we need to understand the Word in full and sometimes that can be difficult because of what we were taught/believe.  I'm learning that I am growing continually daily....I will never arrive in my walk with Christ until I meet Him face to face.

My prayer for all of us in the Christianity Forum is that we all come to the place of forgiveness in whatever manner we offend.  We are all imperfect, even though we are Christ Followers.  I know that satan wants nothing else but for this forum to be dissolved....I see it being attacked daily, not just in this forum, but in the 'other' forums as well.  I see our 'good' here being evil spoken of and it doesn't bother me anymore because I know that there are those who choose to live a life apart from God and when the truth is made known, or as a mirror to those without Christ, then there is a defensiveness that arises because of it.  Jesus is absolute Lord!

We MUST remain as Christ desires...to be steadfast and immovable in our faith and when we speak/type or whatever, do it in love.  I am FIRST to say that I am wrong for many of the things I have said/typed here in this forum.  I have gotten angry and lashed out to some.  I have been on the defensive and didn't want to hear anything from anyone because I was right, and the Holy Spirit brought correction to me, where I had mucus running out of my nose because I had to repent of how I was feeling about some of the people on this forum.  

We all must grow, because the days are evil.  We all must forgive, because of Him who is faithful is coming soon...and He desires to find His Bride without spot or blemish.  I want to be all that He wants me to be because I don't want to be without Him....EVER!

May the Lord bless each and every one of you and may His light shine upon your hearts today!


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## MrsHaseeb (May 23, 2013)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Yes, I know.  I wish that it wasn't taken personally by JaneBond700 because I know what you were saying wasn't a direct attack to catholism but that you were addressing the "good" would cause us to be saved.
> 
> I'm learning that language is not fundamental.  I believe that when we speak (or type text) that it can be taken out of context to the hearer/reader.  I am learning to be quick to hear/read and slow to wrath.  I am learning that we all have our own interpretations of what the Word of God says, but...we need to understand the Word in full and sometimes that can be difficult because of what we were taught/believe.  I'm learning that I am growing continually daily....I will never arrive in my walk with Christ until I meet Him face to face.
> 
> ...



Amen.. I agree. It is difficult to fully understand tone when reading. The hostility I think comes in from previous threads getting heated. That certainly was not my intention this time around. Its easier to get offended if you've been offended by a person in the past. I understand and don't mind apologizing because I need the grace and mercy of Jesus just like everyone else. However, we as Christians are instructed to discern/prove all things. Is it Christian behavior to see erroneous teaching and not address it when it could lead someone astray? Love means addressing those things, which I tried to do without attack. It wasn't addressed to attack a Pope or a church, it was done for those who could read it and be deceived by it.


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## Nice & Wavy (May 23, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> Amen.. I agree. It is difficult to fully understand tone when reading. The hostility I think comes in from previous threads getting heated. That certainly was not my intention this time around. Its easier to get offended if you've been offended by a person in the past. I understand and don't mind apologizing because I need the grace and mercy of Jesus just like everyone else. *However, we as Christians are instructed to discern/prove all things.* *Is it Christian behavior to see erroneous teaching and not address it when it could lead someone astray? Love means addressing those things*, which I tried to do without attack. It wasn't addressed to attack a Pope or a church, it was done for those who could read it and be deceived by it.


I don't think I implied that in my post, but you are right....we must address erroneous teaching...I do it on a daily basis.  It's important for us to teach the Gospel correctly.  I did state in my post that because of belief/teachings, there are those who may say something out of context and we who are mature in Christ, should do it in love without hurting the other person...(i'm not saying this is what you did...I am speaking in general).  Sometimes we say/type things that do hurt others and that was the message I was conveying in my post as to what I have done to those on this forum.  I'm learning to teach the truth in a way that won't offend personally, but will get the point across because as I teach the truth in this manner, the Holy Spirit brings the correction to that person.  My ministry is to reach souls....I'm trying to do it the way Jesus did it....and I know He had to tell the Pharisees and Sadducees in that day how He really thought of them because they were saying they were leaders/teachers in that time and we know those who call themselves that have a greater responsibility.  There are those who don't call themselves leaders/teachers and give a word and that word may not line up with the truth of the gospel, that's when we are to help in a way that will help them understand and not turn away from the truth.  This is why we are here...this is why the Lord has given us these gifts.


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## Galadriel (May 23, 2013)

The Catholic Church teaches that God wills for all men to be saved--this is known as the universal salvific will of God. In other words, God doesn't predestine anyone to go to Hell, and there's no one that God is unwilling to save.

The Church isn't meant to be an insular group where we sit on our hands and say, "We're God's chosen! Goodbye, world, you're all damned!" We are told to go throughout the world and bring everyone *into* the Church--to make disciples of all men.

We believe that up until the moment of your death, you have the opportunity and potential to convert and turn to God.

This is what Pope Francis is referring to.

I think he lacks the finesse of Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI (he would've explained it all A to Z so there was no misunderstanding), but I'm used to "Catholic lingo," so I got what he was saying.

How are we saved? By faith through grace. We must persevere in our faith until our deaths, and if we separate ourselves from God through sin, we must repent. This is all made possible by the sacrificial death of Christ. As He has risen from the dead, we too have hope and faith in our resurrection.

When Pope Francis says to do good, he is not advocating atonement or redemption via human works (a heresy that has already been condemned by the Catholic Church). What he is saying to the non-Christian, the atheist, is to do good, so that they can be *open to God's grace and conversion*. It's MUCH easier to find and meet Jesus Christ when you are searching for Him and trying to do right versus when you're openly rejecting Him and doing evil.

I am a Christian convert. I didn't grow up in any particular religion and was quite ignorant of religion in general. What led me to Christ was visiting church with my Catholic friend, participating in church charities and events with her, and reading the Bible and the Catechism--these are all good works. God can use good works to draw us out of ourselves and show us His grace, so that we can go deeper, start asking the deep questions, the hard questions, and coming to Christ in faith. If I had been partying and drinking and engaging in sinful behavior, I imagine it may have taken longer or would've been more difficult for me to turn to God. When a person hardens his heart in sin, he clings to it, instead of God. The prompting by the pope to "do good," is to plant the seeds of the first steps of one's conversion, to at least opening one's self up to God's grace that is waiting.

An atheist is clearly not on the same footing as a Christian in the state of grace--but both are loved by God and are being called to Him. I think this is the gist of the message. We humans often give up on each other "You made your bed, now lie in it..." etc, etc....Pope Francis is saying that God never gives up on us, and there is still hope up until the moment of death.

I understand the alarm some of you feel at Pope Francis' words, and I wished he (or those in the position to do so) would have taken care to put his words into better context, because certain words or phrases we use in Catholicism will mean something different to a non-Catholic or a non-Christian.

I do not believe a person is _de facto_ saved just by "being good" (especially since Scripture and human experience teach us that no one is truly good). We all sin, and we don't have the power or authority to erase our sin or make ourselves holy. We must come to God in repentance and pray, "O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell. Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Your Mercy."

Also, it's important to understand that in Catholicism, salvation isn't a one-time event. We'll look at you with a raised eyebrow if you ask us, "Are you saved?" or "When were you saved?" To the Catholic, salvation is a process, and we will answer, "I am *being* saved."

To the Catholic, salvation consists of two parts: Justification and Sanctification

Justification is the atonement of Christ's death on the Cross being applied to us, so that we are "not guilty" and forgiven our sins. Sanctification also includes the merits of Christ, where God transforms our interior souls so that we grow in holiness and purity, and closer to Him and further away from sin/evil.

I hope this clarify things.


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## MrsHaseeb (May 23, 2013)

Nice & Wavy said:


> I don't think I implied that in my post, but you are right....we must address erroneous teaching...I do it on a daily basis.  It's important for us to teach the Gospel correctly.  I did state in my post that because of belief/teachings, there are those who may say something out of context and we who are mature in Christ, should do it in love without hurting the other person...(i'm not saying this is what you did...I am speaking in general).  Sometimes we say/type things that do hurt others and that was the message I was conveying in my post as to what I have done to those on this forum.  I'm learning to teach the truth in a way that won't offend personally, but will get the point across because as I teach the truth in this manner, the Holy Spirit brings the correction to that person.  My ministry is to reach souls....I'm trying to do it the way Jesus did it....and I know He had to tell the Pharisees and Sadducees in that day how He really thought of them because they were saying they were leaders/teachers in that time and we know those who call themselves that have a greater responsibility.  There are those who don't call themselves leaders/teachers and give a word and that word may not line up with the truth of the gospel, that's when we are to help in a way that will help them understand and not turn away from the truth.  This is why we are here...this is why the Lord has given us these gifts.



No sis, I wasn't addressing that part to you to imply that you said we shouldn't address it. It was really for JaneBond007 because I hate she feels attacked. I was hoping she'd read it


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## Nice & Wavy (May 23, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> No sis, I wasn't addressing that part to you to imply that you said we shouldn't address it. It was really for JaneBond007 because I hate she feels attacked. I was hoping she'd read it


Thanks sis... 

My work is done here in this thread...see ya'll in another one!  God bless you and I do hope you continue to have a wonderful day!


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## Galadriel (May 23, 2013)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Thanks sis...
> 
> My work is done here in this thread...see ya'll in another one!  God bless you and I do hope you continue to have a wonderful day!



Nice & Wavy before you go, I hope you read my post here .


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## MrsHaseeb (May 23, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> The Catholic Church teaches that God wills for all men to be saved--this is known as the universal salvific will of God. In other words, God doesn't predestine anyone to go to Hell, and there's no one that God is unwilling to save.
> 
> The Church isn't meant to be an insular group where we sit on our hands and say, "We're God's chosen! Goodbye, world, you're all damned!" We are told to go throughout the world and bring everyone *into* the Church--to make disciples of all men.
> 
> ...



Yes, it clarified a lot. Thank you for putting as gracefully as you did. But I don't see what you said in anything he said...


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## Galadriel (May 23, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> Yes, it clarified a lot. Thank you for putting as gracefully as you did. But I don't see what you said in anything he said...



MrsHaseeb that's why I think context is important (for both sides). Outsiders need to take the time to understand, and the pope needs to be more aware that unless he provides MORE context, that some people (even well-meaning people) may have the wrong impression of his words.


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## JaneBond007 (May 23, 2013)

@Galadriel

Actually, I don't think we need to tone down our lingo to appeal to anyone else but to speak the truth per the truth that within our faith guided by the H-ly Spirit.  Our catechism, the Doctors of the Faith and scripture are there for personal review.  If people will read those before making false judgments is actually the fair question.  We make definitive statements and do not need to be apologetic about them.  Context is very important, as you point out, and I add that it is, especially when charges of untruth are made against the very one quoted as unbiblical.  That is the height of dishonesty, imho, to deliberately avoid the entire speech that could be compared to scripture.  Thank you for clarifying his statement in this thread...I'm reading this post as my last and this will serve as my final  contribution, esp. on this subject.  



Here's a catholic apologist's take one the differences between redemption and salvation.  He puts it very well:

Michelle Arnold's Avatar     
Michelle Arnold Michelle Arnold is offline
Catholic Answers Apologist

Join Date: May 3, 2004
Posts: 4,808
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: What's the difference between redemption and salvation?
Basically, redemption is collective and salvation is individual. *By his passion, death, and resurrection, Christ redeemed humanity collectively from slavery to sin and from the debt of punishment mankind -- as a whole -- owed due to sin.* *Each and every person, Christian or non-Christian, is redeemed because he is a member of the human race.*

Salvation is the application of redemption to individuals. Although a member of redeemed humanity, and therefore himself redeemed, a person can freely choose to deliberately reject the graces won for him by Christ and go to hell.


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## Galadriel (May 23, 2013)

Another good analysis:

http://orthodoxyandheterodoxy.org/2...cis-say-everyone-will-be-saved-by-doing-good/

Enormous theological ignorance and bad reading exploded onto the scene this week:

    Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics

    (An earlier version had this headline: “Pope Francis Says All Who Do Good Are Redeemed – Atheists included.”)

    (Huffington Post) Pope Francis rocked some religious and atheist minds today when he declared that everyone was redeemed through Jesus, including atheists.

    [...]

    Of course, not all Christians believe that those who don’t believe will be redeemed, and the Pope’s words may spark memories of the deep divisions from the Protestant reformation over the belief in redemption through grace versus redemption through works.

That supposedly correctly interprets remarks made by Pope Francis:

    “They complain,” the Pope said in his homily, because they say, “If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party, he cannot do good.” And Jesus corrects them: “Do not hinder him, he says, let him do good.” The disciples, Pope Francis explains, “were a little intolerant,” closed off by the idea of ​​possessing the truth, convinced that “those who do not have the truth, cannot do good.” “This was wrong . . . Jesus broadens the horizon.” Pope Francis said, “The root of this possibility of doing good – that we all have – is in creation.”

    [...]

    “The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can… “The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!”.. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

First, I should note that I do not think any Orthodox Christian should have any problem with what Francis is quoted as saying here. Why?

Well, first, this is not universalism. It might appear to be so if you don’t know that there is a difference in traditional Christian theology between being saved and being redeemed. The redemption that Christ accomplished through the incarnation, cross and resurrection was for all of human nature, and so it is quite correct to say “The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ.” Redemption is something that happens for human nature, which is why all will be resurrected in the end and why all are capable of doing good.

But that is not the same thing as saying that all will be saved, and it certainly isn’t saying that everyone will be saved by doing good. It’s not even saying that everyone will be redeemed by doing good. Salvation, in distinction from redemption, is centered on the individual person, not on the whole of human nature. Salvation is what the individual person does with the redemption that Christ has given to all, and it involves much more than simply doing good.

But Francis holds out the possibility here for an encounter, that we may “meet one another” when good is done, by whoever it may be done. And he is absolutely correct. All good is from God, so even an atheist—even an anti-theist—who does good is in some sense participating in God’s goodness by virtue of his redemption by Christ and remaining created according to the image of God. But that doesn’t mean he is saved.

The headline for this piece and much of the writing has this all quite backwards. The capability of doing good is an effect of redemption, not its cause, and salvation is also another possibility because of that redemption. Someone may be redeemed and not be saved. Someone may be redeemed and not do good. Someone may also be redeemed, do good and yet not be saved.

The writer and many readers are not only theologically illiterate, but they are not even reading what Francis said. One does not need to know that redemption and salvation are two different things to see that his emphasis here is on who is capable of doing good—not who is redeemed or saved—and that he’s not at all saying that redemption or salvation are the result of doing good.

The lessons here are twofold: know your terms and read what is actually said.


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## Galadriel (May 23, 2013)

And another one:
http://orthodoxyandheterodoxy.org/2...cis-say-everyone-will-be-saved-by-doing-good/

“Pope Francis Says All Who Do Good are Redeemed – Atheists Included”

It takes some doing to get so many layers of complicated errors all folded into 11 words, but if anybody can do it, it’s HuffPo.

Let’s unpack this elaborate confection of blunders.

1. The first blunder is that what the Pope said–what he actually said, not what the headline reports–is “news” in the sense that it is some sort of startling change in Catholic teaching. It ain’t.

2. Pope Francis does not say that “all who do good are redeemed”. The reason he does not say this is because people–like HuffPo–are all too ready to assume that our redemption depends on us doing good. In fact, all who do good, and all who do evil, and all saints, and all Nazis, and pirates, and Communists and Mormons, Swedenborgians, and Satanists, and plumbers, and students who are getting Fs, and little kids and old coots, and profoundly brain-damaged folk and really brilliant scientists, and tall, and fat, and short people, and Muslims, and atheists, and Jews, and Buddhists and everybody else with a pulse are redeemed. Stalin is redeemed along with St. Damien of Molokai, Jack the Ripper and St Francis of Assisi are both redeemed. That’s not me. That’s the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

    605 At the end of the parable of the lost sheep Jesus recalled that God’s love excludes no one: “So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.” He affirms that he came “to give his life as a ransom for many”; this last term is not restrictive, but contrasts the whole of humanity with the unique person of the redeemer who hands himself over to save us. The Church, following the apostles, teaches that Christ died for all men without exception: “There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer.”

In short, the reason we are redeemed–all of us without any exception whatsoever, even Hitler and Judas Iscariot–is that Jesus Christ died for every human being without any exception whatsoever. That has nothing to do with our “doing good”. It has to do with the overwhelming generosity of God to us even when we are not good at all–even when we are pounding nails through his hands and feet.

    While we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. Why, one will hardly die for a righteous man–though perhaps for a good man one will dare even to die. But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. – Romans 5:6-8

So the offer of salvation is extended to all–including atheists, not because of our goodness, but because of God’s grace. However, that does not mean it is a slam dunk that the offer will be accepted by all.

3. Francis *does* say that atheists are capable of doing good, for the simple reason that they are and always have been able to do good by virtue of the fact that the natural law is accessible to any human being. That is true but not news–except to Huffpo.

So at the end of the day, the pope said… well, what the Church has pretty much always said. Which is kind of the job description.


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## Galadriel (May 23, 2013)

Thanks JB for the great quote provided below. I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I was saying "tone down our lingo." What I meant was that when you know you have a worldwide audience, it helps to be more specific and defined when using certain words or phrases, especially if groups X, Y and Z have different understandings of those phrases. 

We already see what kind of confusion has resulted, esp. with the secular media who are ready to run away with anything.

As you pointed out, as Catholics, we understand the Catholic definition of "redemption" and "salvation," as well as the difference between the two. Most Protestants don't have that distinction or have a different definition. So, when they hear these words being used, they are using their frame of reference to interpret Pope Francis' words.




JaneBond007 said:


> @Galadriel
> 
> Actually, I don't think we need to tone down our lingo to appeal to anyone else but to speak the truth per the truth that within our faith guided by the H-ly Spirit.  Our catechism, the Doctors of the Faith and scripture are there for personal review.  If people will read those before making false judgments is actually the fair question.  We make definitive statements and do not need to be apologetic about them.  Context is very important, as you point out, and I add that it is, especially when charges of untruth are made against the very one quoted as unbiblical.  That is the height of dishonesty, imho, to deliberately avoid the entire speech that could be compared to scripture.  Thank you for clarifying his statement in this thread...I'm reading this post as my last and this will serve as my final  contribution, esp. on this subject.
> 
> ...


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## Nice & Wavy (May 23, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> @Nice & Wavy before you go, I hope you read my post here .


Galadriel ...yes, I did read your post.


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## MrsHaseeb (May 23, 2013)

He was addressing people who don't know Jesus Christ and its his responsibility to make sure that he is preaching the Gospel clearly and that those he's preaching to understand that you can't approach Jesus Christ without repentance. All that redemption stuff means nothing for a person who hasn't repented and been told that that's the way to get to Jesus. The offense was obviously taken over someone deciding to say that what he taught was incorrect and people come to his defense and try to get all technical about meanings of words. Its pointless. A person who hasn't made Jesus Lord in their life didn't say, "oh he's saying I'm redeemed but I still need to come to Jesus and be cleansed". The message was not the Gospel. It didn't present Christ and him crucified to a dying world. When we read the Bible, the apostles made the Gospel plain. That's what this is about. He made a public speech and everyone has the right to address it if it was wrong. This is about the lost people in this world and their need to hear the gospel with clarity.

2 Corinthians 3:12 KJV
Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:


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## Galadriel (May 23, 2013)

I think the pope's homily also helps lend a little more context:

"*The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can. He must. Not can: must! Because he has this commandment within him.* Instead, this ‘closing off’ that imagines that those outside, everyone, cannot do good is a wall that leads to war and also to what some people throughout history have conceived of: killing in the name of God. That we can kill in the name of God. And that, simply, is blasphemy. To say that you can kill in the name of God is blasphemy.”

“Instead,” the Pope continued, “the Lord has created us in His image and likeness, and has given us this commandment in the depths of our heart: do good and do not do evil”:

"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

Text from page http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/201...counter_is_the_foundation_of_peace/en1-694445
of the Vatican Radio website

He is not saying "Just do good, and you'll go to Heaven," he is asserting that:

1) All human beings are created in God's image and likeness

2) Any good we do is because of Him

3) We must follow the commandments God wrote upon our hearts to do good and not evil

4) Even those outside the Church are capable of good actions

5) We (Christians and non-Christians) can meet each other at this starting point. 

Protestants note: when we say "redeemed" and when you say "redeemed," we may talk past each other because we don't mean the same thing you do when using the word.


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## Galadriel (May 23, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> At the end of the day... All this junk over terms and meanings of terms is just that. Why? Because he was addressing people who don't know Jesus Christ



MrsHaseeb, the pope wasn't speaking to a group of atheists, this was his sermon during a Catholic mass at the Vatican to other Catholics.

The day's scripture reading was from the Gospel account of the disciples telling Jesus that they told another group to stop casting out demons in Christ's name because they weren't part of the official group of disciples. Pope Francis was using this example to teach Catholics that we shouldn't count as worthless the good that other people are capable of, because God's grace can reach anyone. Christ has died for humanity and earned redemption for all of us. As JaneBond007 rightly pointed out, the APPLICATION of redemption (salvation) is a whole other matter.

Whoever wrote the news story with the headline "Pope says all are saved," clearly did not understand the difference between redemption and salvation. Especially since "I am saved...you are saved" is not even Catholic terminology. We don't even say that.


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## Nice & Wavy (May 23, 2013)

> Protestants note: when we say "redeemed" and when you say "redeemed," we  may talk past each other because we don't mean the same thing you do  when using the word.




Galadriel,

Thank you for sharing the catholic meaning.  I appreciate that you took the time to clarify it here in this thread.

MrsHaseeb,
Thank you for sharing your feelings on what you feel is the truth.  I appreciate that you are so passionate about the Word...we all need more of this in our lives.

I pray the "us" and "them" would cease in this forum because at the end of the day, we will need each other when the boo boo hits the fan!

Ok, I'm done....Love ya'll!


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## ktykaty (May 23, 2013)

Ithacagurl
 Is it possible to change the title of this thread. It's creating confusion

Thanks.


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## Galadriel (May 23, 2013)

Nice & Wavy said:


> @Galadriel,
> 
> Thank you for sharing the catholic meaning.  I appreciate that you took the time to clarify it here in this thread.
> 
> ...




Thanks N&W!


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## Nice & Wavy (May 23, 2013)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Yes, I know.  I wish that it wasn't taken personally by JaneBond007 because I know what you were saying wasn't a direct attack to catholism but that you were addressing the "good" would cause us to be saved.
> 
> I'm learning that language is not fundamental.  I believe that when we speak (or type text) that it can be taken out of context to the hearer/reader.  I am learning to be quick to hear/read and slow to wrath.  I am learning that we all have our own interpretations of what the Word of God says, but...we need to understand the Word in full and sometimes that can be difficult because of what we were taught/believe.  I'm learning that I am growing continually daily....I will never arrive in my walk with Christ until I meet Him face to face.
> 
> ...


Iwanthealthyhair67,

Thank you for thanking my post.  I appreciate that you understood my heart in this post and what I meant.

God bless you for always being a light upon a hill which cannot be hidden!!!

Blessings, always..... 

N&W


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## Nice & Wavy (May 23, 2013)

Galadriel said:


> Thanks N&W!


You're welcome!


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## Galadriel (May 23, 2013)

ktykaty said:


> @Ithacagurl
> Is it possible to change the title of this thread. It's creating confusion
> 
> Thanks.



Agreed.

@Ithacagurl, was "Pope Delcares All Are Saved" part of some article that you got this from, or is this your own title that you created for the thread?

It is causing confusion, especially since the Pope wasn't even talking about salvation.

He was talking about peace and using our good actions to find common ground with one another--even with those who aren't Christian. You'll also notice that one of the Cardinals right there with the pope in this particular occasion was Cardinal Rai--he's one of our Eastern Patriarchs--which means he deals with Muslim and Christian relations in the Middle East. Cardinal Rai has recently come from Syria, where Christians are being attacked and their churches bombed. This is why Pope Francis was talking about "to kill in the name of God is blasphemy." Pope Francis was stressing that when we view another group of people as worthless and incapable of any good whatsoever, it can have horrible consequences. Pope Francis is appealing to the fact that whether Christian or non-Christian, God has written certain laws upon our hearts to guide us, and we should go with good and not evil.


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## Ithacagurl (May 24, 2013)

*Re: Pope declares......*

On where *there* is. 

‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another *there*.”

Based upon another account he may be saying that even though they may not believe as he does that they can be of the same mind as to doing good only, in that it can be a positive benefit in general.

The wording is odd and may be that way due to translation. Still, putting the unbeliever on the scale of virtuous works, on the good side, is a huge problem of the way people are supposed to see the root problem of unbelief and sin. It won't do a condemmed person much good to get a gold star for effort while they perish.


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## Belle Du Jour (May 24, 2013)

Scott Hahn on what the pope REALLY said:

 Lots of people are criticizing Pope Francis' teaching earlier this week, as if he's deviating from the Church's teaching on the need to proclaim the good news... Contrary to what you may read in the media, please notice, nowhere does he even suggest - much less teach - that avowed atheists are saved. Instead, what he actually says is so obviously true and open to a perfectly fair and benign reading:

1. We shouldn't be so critical of outsiders that we don't allow ourselves to see or acknowledge whatever good they do, or truth they affirm (even atheists).

2. Christ didn't die to save only catholics/christians, but everybody (even atheists).

3. Since all are redeemed by Christ - at least potentially -we should be looking for ways to build bridges with them in order to actualize that redemptive potential, by showing them that whatever truth and goodness they embrace comes from - and leads to - Christ.


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## Belle Du Jour (May 24, 2013)

Again, the title of this thread is misleading and false. For the sake of respect for Catholics on LHCF and Christian truth and unity, I also urge that the title is changed to reflect what he actually said.


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## Iwanthealthyhair67 (May 24, 2013)

Nice & Wavy

Yes, I understand completely (I don't want the slightest thing to stand between me and God), ...You really touched my heart when you spoke of forgiveness, it's much needed in our lives and on this forum.




Nice & Wavy said:


> @Iwanthealthyhair67,
> 
> Thank you for thanking my post. I appreciate that you understood my heart in this post and what I meant.
> 
> ...


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## Galadriel (May 24, 2013)

Me feeding the hungry or saving a life is an objectively good action, just as a non-Christian feeding the hungry or saving a life is an objectively good action.

Now, whether or not they have MERITS (i.e., rewards, blessings, spiritual benefits) is a whole other matter, but I wouldn't snub a non-Christian for doing moral good.

For example, there are non-Christians, agnostics, etc. who are pro-life and against abortion. Should I look down on them and think their efforts worthless because they aren't Catholic, or Christian?

This is exactly what I think the pope was talking about--how we say, "But he's not Catholic/Christian! He can't do anything good!"




Ithacagurl said:


> On where *there* is.
> 
> ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another *there*.”
> 
> ...


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## Belle Du Jour (May 24, 2013)

^ You said it better than I could. I have a problem with the notion that a good deed done by a non-Christian is less virtuous than that done by a Christian. That is exactly what a pharisee would say and the same line of thinking Jesus condemned. How can we help the sinner to stop sinning if we look down on his/her good deeds? That is an uncharitable attitude.


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## MrsHaseeb (May 24, 2013)

I have tried and tried to go over this to make sure that I'm not making unjustified claims. And nothing I post is meant to attack any of the Catholic ladies on this forum. God bless you all and I certainly never want to offend any of you. However, if the Bible declares in Ephesians 2 that we are by nature enemies of God how can we really do good? What's the point of doing good only to be damned to hell? The message was slightly deceptive in that it doesn't plainly say repent because Jesus is coming back. While everyone has a different approach for how to reach a sinner I don't think its ever effective to not preach repentance and set forth Christ and him crucified. While he *kinda* said Christ's finished work on the cross makes redemption available, repentance and freedom/deliverance from sin and punishment for sin was not mentioned. That's what people need. Doing good deeds won't kill the sin nature. Only repentance can do that. Look around at the world... We see a bunch of hurting ( and some just utterly demon possessed) people. These people need healing and deliverance from the great physician, Christ Jesus. But if they are not compelled to come to him, how can he help them? Does not the Bible say warn the righteous, warn the wicked? This is not a time to sugar coat. Some warning needs to be done because this nation is being turned into hell for forgetting God. Praying for *us* all.

P.S. Telling people who don't know Christ to do good may make this present world a better place if they obey (but the Bible has prophesied that they won't). The devil can watch people so good all day, his war is waged where it comes to people becoming true followers of Christ. That's where the attack needs to be focused. Not at telling the people in his control to "do good".


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## MrsHaseeb (May 24, 2013)

Belle Du Jour said:


> ^ You said it better than I could. I have a problem with the notion that a good deed done by a non-Christian is less virtuous than that done by a Christian. That is exactly what a pharisee would say and the same line of thinking Jesus condemned. How can we help the sinner to stop sinning if we look down on his/her good deeds? That is an uncharitable attitude.



Belle, but the Pharisees were some of the first doing good for the praise of men. I don't see where the apostles used this approach look how God drew people to himself. Doing good deeds can actually make a person legalistic by causing them to trust their deeds but yet their heart is far from Jesus. Its not about condemning their good deeds, but rather telling them that good deeds will not save in the end. Those who want Jesus will acknowledge their sin. Those who don't will begin to trust the works. It's not our job to make them feel comfortable. On the day of Pentecost Peter flat out told the people that they crucified Jesus. Those who felt conviction cried, "men and brethren what shall we do?!" Those who were hardened mocked and accused the 120 of being drunk with new wine.


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## Belle Du Jour (May 24, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> Belle, but the Pharisees were some of the first doing good for the praise of men. I don't see where the apostles used this approach look how God drew people to himself. Doing good deeds can actually make a person legalistic by causing them to trust their deeds but yet their heart is far from Jesus. Its not about condemning their good deeds, but rather telling them that good deeds will not save in the end. Those who want Jesus will acknowledge their sin. Those who don't will begin to trust the works. It's not our job to make them feel comfortable. On the day of Pentecost Peter flat out told the people that they crucified Jesus. Those who felt conviction cried, "men and brethren what shall we do?!" Those who were hardened mocked and accused the 120 of being drunk with new wine.



That wasn't the point of the pope's sermon.  And he certainly didn't tell anyone that their good deeds will get them to Heaven.  That is a common fallacy about Catholics--that we believe works will get up in.  No ma'am.   We are saved by grace but works are part of the fruits of a Christian life that will naturally pour out.

My issue with Ithacagurl's comment was that the good work by a Christian is more virtuous.  That is a self-righteous attitude and THAT is what Jesus was condemning.  They were calling out the sin in the other folks without ignoring the plank in their own eye.  Why the need to qualify at all why someone is doing a good work?  I think a more humble attitude is to thank God for salvation and mercy and remember _"there, but for the grace of God, I go. . ."_

The pope was talking to Catholics at mass.  He was not trying to soothe non-Christians or make them feel better.  Trust that the Church is not in the business of making people "comfortable."  We preach living in faith and holiness, despite the fact that people think our faith is about following "rules."  The church has not changed her stance on gay marriage, contraception, etc while many other Christian denominations have, but that's another thread.  My main point was that Christians should speak with compassion--yes, call a spade a spade but not in a demeaning or demoralizing way.  That is not of Christ.


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## Belle Du Jour (May 24, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> I have tried and tried to go over this to make sure that I'm not making unjustified claims. And nothing I post is meant to attack any of the Catholic ladies on this forum. God bless you all and I certainly never want to offend any of you. However, if the Bible declares in Ephesians 2 that we are by nature enemies of God how can we really do good? What's the point of doing good only to be damned to hell? The message was slightly deceptive in that it doesn't plainly say repent because Jesus is coming back. While everyone has a different approach for how to reach a sinner I don't think its ever effective to not preach repentance and set forth Christ and him crucified. While he *kinda* said Christ's finished work on the cross makes redemption available, repentance and freedom/deliverance from sin and punishment for sin was not mentioned. That's what people need. Doing good deeds won't kill the sin nature. Only repentance can do that. Look around at the world... We see a bunch of hurting ( and some just utterly demon possessed) people. These people need healing and deliverance from the great physician, Christ Jesus. But if they are not compelled to come to him, how can he help them? Does not the Bible say warn the righteous, warn the wicked? This is not a time to sugar coat. Some warning needs to be done because this nation is being turned into hell for forgetting God. Praying for *us* all.
> 
> P.S. Telling people who don't know Christ to do good may make this present world a better place if they obey (but the Bible has prophesied that they won't). The devil can watch people so good all day, his war is waged where it comes to people becoming true followers of Christ. That's where the attack needs to be focused. Not at telling the people in his control to "do good".



I'm sorry but I didn't see anything deceptive in his sermon.  I also don't see where he was suggesting an "alternative pathway" to salvation by telling non-Christians that if they do X amount of good deeds, they can get into heaven.  

There is no "hinting" in church dogma that Christ's death and resurrection was the once and for all sacrifice that redeemed our fallen nature.  We remember it at every mass in the Liturgy of the Eucharist.  Pope emeritus Benedict XVI called this current liturgical year the "Year of Faith" calling all Catholics to deepen their walk with God.  In terms of warning people, the Church has been very vocal (even prophetic for example in Humane Vitae) about the moral decline of society that is taking place.  A perusal of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops website will reveal that the church has been calling this country to holiness for some time now. . .

The pope's message was taken out of context and in error.  Now, generalizations are being made about what he _didn't_ say in this _particular _homily.  These things are constantly being preached by the church.


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## MrsHaseeb (May 24, 2013)

Belle Du Jour said:


> I'm sorry but I didn't see anything deceptive in his sermon.  I also don't see where he was suggesting an "alternative pathway" to salvation by telling non-Christians that if they do X amount of good deeds, they can get into heaven.
> 
> There is no "hinting" in church dogma that Christ's death and resurrection was the once and for all sacrifice that redeemed our fallen nature.  We remember it at every mass in the Liturgy of the Eucharist.  Pope emeritus Benedict XVI called this current liturgical year the "Year of Faith" calling all Catholics to deepen their walk with God.  In terms of warning people, the Church has been very vocal (even prophetic for example in Humane Vitae) about the moral decline of society that is taking place.  A perusal of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops website will reveal that the church has been calling this country to holiness for some time now. . .
> 
> The pope's message was taken out of context and in error.  Now, generalizations are being made about what he didn't say in this particular homily.  These things are constantly being preached by the church.



Belle, you keep going into what Catholics believe and do but just to clarify... I never once implied any of that about Catholicism but rather spoke on how the message was presented. I don't think anyone in here attacked your beliefs. As far as everything else, I suppose we are simply viewing from different angles. My comments were not about endlessly debating whether Catholic doctrine is biblical it not (Lord knows there has been enough of that) but rather to state why some found the homily to be an issue. Either way,God bless


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## Galadriel (May 25, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> I have tried and tried to go over this to make sure that I'm not making unjustified claims. And nothing I post is meant to attack any of the Catholic ladies on this forum. God bless you all and I certainly never want to offend any of you. However, if the Bible declares in Ephesians 2 that we are by nature enemies of God how can we really do good? What's the point of doing good only to be damned to hell?



First, I think it's important to understand that good and evil are objective. Anyone can commit an objectively good or evil action, regardless of religion or creed. You seem to be conflating morally good actions with the spiritual merit or reward that God can attach to them. Those are two different things.

But on to Francis...

I think the problem is that you're still interpreting the pope's homily through the He's-Talking-About-Salvation-Lens...

He is not talking about doing good in order to go to heaven. In fact, you'll notice in the entire homily, that the pope doesn't say the word "saved," so why then is the misleading title proclaiming, "Pope says all are saved"?

He was not speaking to a group of non-Christians at the time of this homily--this was in the middle of a Catholic Mass, and he was speaking to Catholics.

He was telling them that charity and good deeds are a meeting ground where we can encounter others outside our community.

Unfortunately, Ithacagurl did not quote the entire thing (which I think further led to confusion among several Protestants commenting thus far). In the missing paragraph that she left out, the pope is talking about how violence and killing people "in the name of God" is immoral, and blasphemy, and how people who view that it's all right to harm and kill in the name of God are the same people who don't see any worth in the people they attack.

"But Father! He's not Catholic! How can he do any good?" The pope is pointing out how the mindset of "He's not one of us, therefore he's worthless and can do nothing good" is not the right attitude to have, because it's the same attitude that some people use to justify violence.

This especially has significance and helps lend to the context of the Pope's homily because Cardinal Rai was AT THE MASS ASSISTING THE POPE. 

Who is Cardinal Rai? 

He is one of the cardinals from the Middle East, and has traveled to Syria to help support the Christians in that region who are undergoing discrimination, persecution, and physical attacks by Muslim extremists/terrorist groups. The pope clearly condemns violence "in the name of God/religion" and using violence to force people to convert.

This is why the pope (again, this is from the paragraph that OP conveniently left out) spoke about how every one of us are made in God's image and likeness, that God wrote certain laws upon our hearts, and how even those who do not have full revelation (The Bible, the Teachings of the Apostles), have the ability and even the duty to obey the laws GOD wrote upon their hearts, and choose good deeds over evil deeds.

Christ redeemed all of us, meaning, in dying on the Cross He earned and paid for the opportunity for forgiveness of sins and eternity with God in Heaven. Redemption is available to all. This is what the pope spoke of.

_Salvation_ is the individual application of redemption and *how the person responds to Christ's redemption*. But the pope wasn't talking about salvation in this specific instance--he was talking about redemption, avoiding violence through religion, and using the good deeds in others to help build relationships.

I repeat--I repeat--Pope Francis' homily was NOT about who goes to heaven or hell. This is why we were asking OP to change the name of this thread, because it's misleading. It was also misleading for her to leave out an entire paragraph from the quote.



MrsHaseeb said:


> The message was slightly deceptive in that it doesn't plainly say repent because Jesus is coming back.



I think it's unfair to say the pope is teaching deception because he didn't tell a group of Catholics at a Catholic Mass "repent, Jesus is coming," when the subject of his homily was "don't kill people in the name of God and call it goodness."



MrsHaseeb said:


> While everyone has a different approach for how to reach a sinner I don't think its ever effective to not preach repentance and set forth Christ and him crucified.



Again, he wasn't speaking to a group of atheists--this was his fellow Catholics at a Catholic Mass.



MrsHaseeb said:


> While he *kinda* said Christ's finished work on the cross makes redemption available, repentance and freedom/deliverance from sin and punishment for sin was not mentioned.



That's why I think it's important to look at the full context of the pope's homily to see what the subject was, and what point he was trying to make. He was condemning violence in the name of religion.



MrsHaseeb said:


> That's what people need. Doing good deeds won't kill the sin nature.



Again, this wasn't the subject he was addressing.



MrsHaseeb said:


> P.S. Telling people who don't know Christ to do good may make this present world a better place if they obey (but the Bible has prophesied that they won't). The devil can watch people so good all day, his war is waged where it comes to people becoming true followers of Christ. That's where the attack needs to be focused. Not at telling the people in his control to "do good".



Again, he was in the middle of a Catholic worship service speaking to Catholics. He wasn't at a general meeting talking with non-Christians or non-Catholics.


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## Galadriel (May 25, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> Its not about condemning their good deeds, but rather telling them that good deeds will not save in the end. Those who want Jesus will acknowledge their sin. Those who don't will begin to trust the works. It's not our job to make them feel comfortable.



Remember, the pope is talking to Catholics at a Catholic Mass--he is not addressing non-Christians.

Also, the pope nowhere said that good works will get you to heaven or save you. He wasn't even addressing the issue of going to heaven or hell.


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## ktykaty (May 25, 2013)

Ithacagurl 
Can you please change that God-awful title ?

MrsHaseeb
I believe that part of your confusion is because you believe Pope Francis was doing a full theological teaching. What he was doing was a homily, a sermon (short) during Mass, intended to edify the congregation on a specific/practical matter. And this one wasn't even a Sunday Mass homily !
the congregation was a group a catholics employed by the church and working for the government of the Vatican. They must often deal with non catholics in their jobs.
the specific subject was true tolerance.

-------------------------------

Some may found the homily to be an issue. But this is not about this homily. this is about intolerance. this is about pressuring others to say what you want them to say, how you want them to say it and when you want them to say it. If they do not comply, then they must clarify a perfectly articulate speech, they are accused of being delusive, deceitful, unscriptural,....
This is about the devil trying to force catholics to shut their mouth. We are one church, one body. we are in communion. when the Pope is attacked, all of us are attacked. When the Pope is accused of false teaching, it is catholic bashing, we are all accused of not being in communion with Christ.
Yes, it is that deep and that painful for us catholics.


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## Nice & Wavy (May 25, 2013)

I hear what some of you are saying about the fact that the Pope was speaking to catholics in a homely, however...what he said about 'all being redeemed', got me to thinking.  Look at this:



> *REDEE'M, v.t. L. redimo; red, re, and emo, to obtain or purchase.*
> *1.  To purchase back; to ransom; to liberate or rescue from captivity or  bondage, or from any obligation or liability to suffer or to be  forfeited, by paying an equivalent; as, to redeem prisoners or captured  goods; to redeem a pledge.*


 Isn't this what Jesus has done for those who accept Him as Lord and Savior over their lives? I know you ladies who are catholic don't use the word 'saved', but that is what it means...to be 'saved' from spiritual death which is...separation from God for eternity.

Wouldn't it have been better understood (whether he was speaking to catholics or 'outsiders' as you ladies put it) if he would have said this:


> *REDEE'MABLE, a.*
> *  That may be redeemed; capable of redemption*


This I feel would have had a better response from those who read what he said in the OP.  But when he said this:


> *"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics**.** Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists**.**   Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class!   We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ   has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this   commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path   towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others,   if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by   little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We   must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am  an  atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”*
> 
> Text from page  http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2013...ace/en1-694445
> of the Vatican Radio website


...from what I am reading, he has said that  "All" has been redeemed. (salvation given by Jesus dying on the cross and shedding His blood for mankind and man recognizing his/her sinful nature and knowing that he/she needs a Savior and then ask that Jesus to come into their hearts and change their lives) but, we all must know that this isn't the case because the scriptures tell us:


> Romans 10:8-18  *8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”**
> 
> 14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?[a] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.*_* 18 *__*But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for*_*  “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.”*


The word "saved" is written in scripture, this isn't a word that us 'Protestants' made up or created in our own mind.

My prayer for the CF is that we can come to a place of peace, even if we don't agree.


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## Nice & Wavy (May 25, 2013)

Iwanthealthyhair67 said:


> @Nice & Wavy
> 
> Yes, I understand completely (I don't want the slightest thing to stand between me and God), ...You really touched my heart when you spoke of forgiveness, it's much needed in our lives and on this forum.


Thank you sis  Iwanthealthyhair67 and I do agree...it is needed


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## MrsHaseeb (May 25, 2013)

Nice & Wavy said:


> I hear what some of you are saying about the fact that the Pope was speaking to catholics in a homely, however...what he said about 'all being redeemed', got me to thinking.  Look at this:
> 
> Isn't this what Jesus has done for those who accept Him as Lord and Savior over their lives? I know you ladies who are catholic don't use the word 'saved', but that is what it means...to be 'saved' from spiritual death which is...separation from God for eternity.
> 
> ...



Amen Sis! Thank you for this post.


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## MrsHaseeb (May 25, 2013)

ktykaty said:


> Ithacagurl
> Can you please change that God-awful title ?
> 
> MrsHaseeb
> ...



I just need to say this then I'm done.. You say when your Pope is attacked all catholics are attacked... Hmmm... Its funny that the same people who come to defense of their pope gladly hold hands with Muslims (and call them brothers) who claim to be an Abrahamic religion yet pray to the east 5 times a day starting before the sun is up that Allah is the only God and he has no need of a son and Muhammad is his prophet, utterly denying the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ and exalting a wicked man in his place as the prophet. I'd sure love to see such zeal for Jesus Christ..

At the end of the day, the same excuses you being made for why catholics side-eye people who say their "saved" is exactly why your pope was dead wrong in his homily regarding redemption. Redemption is also a process and those in Christ are indeed "being redeemed" and waiting for the day of redemption. 

Ephesians 4:30 KJV
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

 Everyone have a great night.


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## ktykaty (May 26, 2013)

Nice & Wavy said:


> I hear what some of you are saying about the fact that the Pope was speaking to catholics in a homely, however...what he said about 'all being redeemed', got me to thinking.  Look at this:
> 
> Isn't this what Jesus has done for those who accept Him as Lord and Savior over their lives? I know you ladies who are catholic don't use the word 'saved', but that is what it means...to be 'saved' from spiritual death which is...separation from God for eternity.
> 
> ...




From the definition of the word redeem that you posted it is quite clear that redemption is the paying of the ransom. Jesus, our Lord and Savior paid the price once and for all when He died on the cross. We are not being redeemed. Saying that we are being redeemed means that the death of Christ on the cross is not the one and only thing that  pays the price for our sins. People aren't redeemable. they are redeem by Jesus death.
I understand that you and some others are adding the act of repentance into the definition of the word redeem. what I do not understand is why you seem to want others to go/live by your modified definition of the word. Why can't we just stick with the dictionary definition of a word when communicating with others ?? ohwell:

Beside, it is very scriptural to say that Jesus died (payed the price for sins) for all mankind. 
Hebrews 2:5-9
"For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels.  6 But one testified in a certain place, saying:“What is man that You are mindful of him,
Or the son of man that You take care of him?
7 You have made him a little lower than the angels;
You have crowned him with glory and honor,[a]
And set him over the works of Your hands.
8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”[b]

For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing _that is_ not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him.  9 But  we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the  suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that *He, by the grace  of God, might taste death for everyone*."


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## ktykaty (May 26, 2013)

MrsHaseeb said:


> I just need to say this then I'm done.. You say when your Pope is attacked all catholics are attacked... Hmmm... Its funny that the same people who come to defense of their pope *gladly hold hands with Muslims (and call them brothers) *who claim to be an Abrahamic religion yet pray to the east 5 times a day starting before the sun is up that Allah is the only God and he has no need of a son and Muhammad is his prophet, utterly denying the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ and exalting a wicked man in his place as the prophet. I'd sure love to see such zeal for Jesus Christ..
> 
> At the end of the day, the same excuses you being made for why catholics side-eye people who say their "saved" is exactly why your pope was dead wrong in his homily regarding redemption. *Redemption is also a process and those in Christ are indeed "being redeemed" and waiting for the day of redemption. *
> 
> ...



MrsHaseeb

First bolded. I don't see what this has to do with me or with what I posted. If anything that just confirm to me that you were just doing some catholic bashing because you are projecting some serious shade my way.

Second bolded. I don't see the logical articulation between that and the scripture you posted. and this is in contradiction with Hebrews 10:10 
"By that Will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once _for all._  "


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## Nice & Wavy (May 26, 2013)

ktykaty said:


> From the definition of the word redeem that you posted it is quite clear that redemption is the paying of the ransom. Jesus, our Lord and Savior paid the price once and for all when He died on the cross. We are not being redeemed. Saying that we are being redeemed means that the death of Christ on the cross is not the one and only thing that  pays the price for our sins. People aren't redeemable. they are redeem by Jesus death.
> 
> 
> > *I understand that you and some others are adding the act of repentance into the definition of the word redeem. what I do not understand is why you seem to want others to go/live by your modified definition of the word. Why can't we just stick with the dictionary definition of a word when communicating with others ?*
> ...


Lady, the way I put my words in this thread is the way I wanted to do it.  If you see it the way of me wanting people to go my way, then I don't know what to say to you.  I chose to use the definition in the dictionary and I added to it from a scripture view.  If you don't like it, honestly....you can just keep moving.  I did not come in here and tell the catholics not to post what they wanted.  All of you posted what you wanted but as soon as I or others post what we want, we are intolerant and only God knows what else is being said.

People, I am going to say what I want in these threads.  It's not against forum rules so if you don't like what I have to say, don't read my posts.  But, I refuse to allow people to tell me what I should say and what I shouldn't say....IT'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN so don't waste you time.

Good day!


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## Laela (May 26, 2013)

I kept reading what the pope said and had read your response..and that's it for me as well... THERE.

While I see what the pope is trying to say: That we are all OF God since we were all created in His image, so there is a common ground of humanity to do good...that is THERE.  It's like tearing a piece of paper into pieces yet each piece still has the essence of the whole paper. I get that. But the Blood of Jesus takes us beyond THERE. So while Christ died and paid the ransom for all of our sins, we must first believe and accept for that spiritual status to take place. 

Remember Juneteenth? Those slaves in Texas had no idea they were free years after the fact. The emancipation actually already took place but they were still slaves in their minds; they hadn't received the word, to be able to believe it, to accept the fact that they's free.    Same thing here with an atheist. An atheist who rejects God is not able to be redeemed by the Blood of Jesus if he doesn't even believe it!   We need not mention heaven or hell when "good" is mentioned but it's understood heaven or hell is involved, as at the end, we all must account to God for all that we have done/said in this body -- good or bad.  After all, this is a Christian forum:

For we are his workmanship, having been  _created in Christ Jesus_ for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them (Ephesians 2:10).

If an atheist doesn't even believe in God and reject Jesus, how can he do 'good works'? I see why Christians are not feeling what the pope said. Even if he spoke only to Catholics, the statement in and of itself carries much weight in Christendom. Kinda remind me of when Mitt Romney spoke only to Republicans in a private dinner, yet his 47% comments were aired publicly. Same concept. 







Ithacagurl said:


> On where *there* is.
> 
> ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another *there*.”
> 
> ...


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## ktykaty (May 26, 2013)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Lady, the way I put my words in this thread is the way I wanted to do it.  If you see it the way of me wanting people to go my way, then I don't know what to say to you.  I chose to use the definition in the dictionary and I added to it from a scripture view.  If you don't like it, honestly....you can just keep moving.  I did not come in here and tell the catholics not to post what they wanted.  All of you posted what you wanted but as soon as I or others post what we want, we are intolerant and only God knows what else is being said.
> 
> People, I am going to say what I want in these threads.  It's not against forum rules so if you don't like what I have to say, don't read my posts.  But, I refuse to allow people to tell me what I should say and what I shouldn't say....IT'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN so don't waste you time.
> 
> Good day!



Madam,

I do not deny you the right to put whatever you please into the definition of the word redeem. You are free and I'm not your Holy Spirit. do as you please.
Pope Francis used the verb redeem with the definition find in the dictionary. What I said is that I cannot comprehend why you want to put into his mouth your definition of that word and then say that he is incorrect.

beside, a line has been crossed. it's your right to disagree with us. it's your right to think & believe differently from us. but telling someone how they should talk, what they should say, is trying to make them conform to you and not letting them be themselves. it is an attack on our individuality as catholic. this is unacceptable.
there is a clear difference between "I do not agree with what you said" or "this how I see things" and "you should say this and that" or "you should use this and this word".
People, everyone catholic or not have a right to their own opinion and their own belief. It is not your job/responsibility to revise the teaching of our pope and our church. Respect the fact that we have another interpretation of sacred scriptures.

I have stated that some of the thing said here are hurting me and my fellow catholics. another poster has stated how hurt she was and still, you and others find it appropriate to go on with the same hurtful stuff.
I'm still dumbfounded by the fact that hurting another christian does not make you stop doing whatever it is you are doing.


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## Nice & Wavy (May 26, 2013)

Laela said:


> I kept reading what the pope said and had read your response..and that's it for me as well... THERE.
> 
> While I see what the pope is trying to say: That we are all OF God since we were all created in His image, so there is a common ground of humanity to do good...that is THERE.  It's like tearing a piece of paper into pieces yet each piece still has the essence of the whole paper. I get that. But the Blood of Jesus takes us beyond THERE. So while Christ died and paid the ransom for all of our sins, we must first believe and accept for that spiritual status to take place.
> 
> ...


I thank God for you, Laela.  The wisdom that the Lord has given you always shine through some of the toughest areas on this forum.  Thank you for always being a light on a dark hill 

@ the bolded....you clarified so much with this comment...


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## Nice & Wavy (May 26, 2013)

ktykaty said:


> Madam,
> 
> I do not deny you the right to put whatever you please into the definition of the word redeem. You are free and I'm not your Holy Spirit. do as you please.
> Pope Francis used the verb redeem with the definition find in the dictionary. What I said is that I cannot comprehend why you want to put into his mouth your definition of that word and then say that he is incorrect.
> ...


Ok....I'm going to leave you to your hurt.  I didn't say anything that warranted your kind of comment, but whatever.   Even Jesus let the Pharisee's and Sadducee's alone so that they can believe what they wanted.


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## ktykaty (May 26, 2013)

Nice & Wavy said:


> Ok....I'm going to leave you to your hurt.  *I didn't say anything that warranted your kind of comment, but whatever.   *Even Jesus let the Pharisee's and Sadducee's alone so that they can believe what they wanted.



Nice & Wavy
Yes you did. and here comes something insulting, you are putting me in the same boat as the Pharisees and Sadducees.
from fellow christians, I am expecting love and care. by going on doing something hurtful when it has been express to you that it is hurting us, you are basically telling us / demonstrating that you do not love us nor care about us. 

what is hurting me is the lack of love. what is hurting me is seeing people who claim the name of Jesus but are not loving the people Jesus love. You cannot love Jesus and not love His church.
What is hurting me is seeing you and some other christians sinning against other member of the Church of Christ and seemingly not caring about it/them. this lack of love inside the church cannot possibly go on because it is not of Christ.
and that dismissive comment that you just wrote is simply telling me that you do not care about me. another sinful act.
What is hurting me is seeing God's Peolpe using words in order to destroy and hurt and not in order to love and built up.
What is killing me is seeing some Christians being used by the devil to destroy others.
Words do hurt like crazy. and it is scary that you and other christians do not realise how much damage you are doing with your words.


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## Nice & Wavy (May 26, 2013)

ktykaty said:


> @Nice & Wavy
> Yes you did. and here comes something insulting, you are putting me in the same boat as the Pharisees and Sadducees.
> from fellow christians, I am expecting love and care. by going on doing something hurtful when it has been express to you that it is hurting us, you are basically telling us / demonstrating that you do not love us nor care about us.
> 
> ...


I refuse...refuse to allow you or anyone else to say that I am being used by the devil.  I think you have some growing up to do because what you are saying isn't right at all.  You can say what you want, but I am not going to apologize for something I did not do to you or any other catholic on this forum.  Being a Christian doesn't mean being a doormat, even in a forum.


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## fifi134 (May 26, 2013)

ktykaty said:


> Nice & Wavy
> Yes you did. and here comes something insulting, you are putting me in the same boat as the Pharisees and Sadducees.
> from fellow christians, I am expecting love and care. by going on doing something hurtful when it has been express to you that it is hurting us, you are basically telling us / demonstrating that you do not love us nor care about us.
> 
> ...



Exactly. Which is why you should be careful when you accuse some Christians of 'being used by the devil'.


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## Nice & Wavy (May 26, 2013)

fifi134 said:


> Exactly. Which is why you should be careful when you accuse some Christians of 'being used by the devil'.


Thank you for this post...


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## Laela (May 26, 2013)

Sis, I'm thankful for the wisdom from many in this forum as well, you included ... I was just scratching my head on this thing until it clicked because something was amiss .. I appreciate the clarity from Galadriel's posts. Thank God for you ladies in this forum who continue to stand on God's truth, regardless of what or who, because this thing is serious... continue to be joyful in the Lord. Mom encouraged me with this Word today and I encourage you just the same!! 




Nice & Wavy said:


> I thank God for you, Laela.  The wisdom that the Lord has given you always shine through some of the toughest areas on this forum.  Thank you for always being a light on a dark hill
> 
> @ the bolded....you clarified so much with this comment...


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## Nice & Wavy (May 26, 2013)

Laela said:


> Sis, I'm thankful for the wisdom from many in this forum as well, you included ... I was just scratching my head on this thing until it clicked because something was amiss .. I appreciate the clarity from Galadriel's posts. Thank God for you ladies in this forum who continue to stand on God's truth, regardless of what or who, because this thing is serious... continue to be joyful in the Lord. Mom encouraged me with this Word today and I encourage you just the same!!


~Amein


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## Nice & Wavy (May 26, 2013)

This is from an atheist blogger about what the Pope spoke about in his homely:



> *Staks Rosch*
> 
> *                                                  Dear Pope, Atheists Don't Need Redemption                     *
> 
> ...


I didn't copy and paste the rest of his article because I thought it was very rude to catholics.


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## Belle Du Jour (May 26, 2013)

ktykaty said:


> You cannot love Jesus and not love His church.



This is a very poignant statement and one that I wish all Christians would meditate on. . .There is clearly a church that was established by Jesus Christ.  It did not disappear or morph into 40,000+ thousand churches created by men in "protest" of the mother Church.  From a purely historical and factual point of view, I wish non-Catholic/Orthodox Christians would just respect that but I digress. . .  

Overall, I think things were improving in these forums and then, there was this thread.    I'm not sure if I said it before, but I have no ill will towards anyone in this forum even if we disagree on doctrine.   I know that none of us will completely understand the fullness of truth until we're on the other side.


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## Belle Du Jour (May 26, 2013)

Nice & Wavy said:


> This is from an atheist blogger about what the Pope spoke about in his homely:
> 
> I didn't copy and paste the rest of his article because I thought it was very rude to catholics.



I'm not surprised that an atheist totally missed the point of what the Pope was saying.  Christians and non-Christians alike grossly misunderstand what the Church teaches and why.  After all, we believe that the Eucharist is really Jesus' body and blood _like He said_, so we must be cannibals.  erplexed

“There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”  Fulton J. Sheen


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## ktykaty (May 27, 2013)

fifi134 said:


> Exactly. Which is why you should be careful when you accuse some Christians of 'being used by the devil'.



I weighted those words carefully before posting them. I stand by what I said. 
Some people in this thread are unloving and don't care about their sisters jn Christ. Some of their actions are not Christ like.
What is happening on the spiritual level is that they are helping the devil in his attack against the church. Apparently, they do not care enough to stop.
It is a very very sad situation.


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## Galadriel (May 28, 2013)

Nice & Wavy said:


> I hear what some of you are saying about the fact that the Pope was speaking to catholics in a homely, however...what he said about 'all being redeemed', got me to thinking.  Look at this:
> 
> Isn't this what Jesus has done for those who accept Him as Lord and Savior over their lives? I know you ladies who are catholic don't use the word 'saved', but that is what it means...to be 'saved' from spiritual death which is...separation from God for eternity.
> 
> ...



N&W, this is exactly why it's important to understand the Catholic definition of redeemed vs. the Protestant definition of the word. I would like to be at a place of peace as well, but I think it's bad Christian Charity to misrepresent someone's words (as Ithacagurl has done with Pope Francis) and not even come back to the thread to explain her actions. She didn't bother to quote the entire article, left out important contextual information--so any resulting arguments and disagreements is based on the ill information and confusion that she has sewn.


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## Galadriel (May 28, 2013)

Nice & Wavy said:


> This is from an atheist blogger about what the Pope spoke about in his homely:
> 
> I didn't copy and paste the rest of his article because I thought it was very rude to catholics.



Wow, that atheist had no clue what the pope was talking about.


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## Galadriel (May 28, 2013)

Laela said:


> I
> If an atheist doesn't even believe in God and reject Jesus, how can he do 'good works'?



Because actions are either morally good, morally evil, or morally neutral no matter WHO commits the action.

When I drink a glass of water, that is a morally neutral act. If I feed a hungry person, that is a morally good act. If I lie, that is a morally evil act.

Morality is objective. It is a truth and standard that exists outside ourselves and applies to *all* peoples, times, and places.

A Christian who commits adultery has committed moral evil just as an atheist who commits adultery has committed moral evil. If an atheist (or Buddhist, etc.) commits an objectively morally good act--he/she has committed a good act.

God doesn't suspend moral goodness just because an atheist does a morally good act. The danger in thinking this is that it leads to *morality by divine dictate--something is good or evil because God dictates it so* (this is more common in Islam, not Christianity). Christians do not hold to morality by divine dictate, but instead hold that morality is *objective* and *absolute*, and God upholds and enforces moral truths.


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## Galadriel (May 28, 2013)

Also, I forgot who mentioned it earlier, but I do think that *some* here carry the prejudiced concept that Catholics believe in works-based salvation. We don't.


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## Laela (May 28, 2013)

What you just said only further explains "THERE" ..the common ground of morality. Again, I get that..and I'm sure many here do as well.  

It's dangerous to say anyone who has not accepted Jesus, are redeemed _by _the Blood of Jesus. That's all everyone here who disagreed with the pope's statements have been saying.

We can discuss all day long about morality, but morality, being good, good deeds, won't get us to Paradise.  There is only one way to the Father - by faith through Jesus. We're saved by grace, through faith, so 'good works' are a manifestation of the inner working of salvation for those redeemed by the Blood of Jesus, thus my comment on the atheist.

You know, it's not even about the pope and Catholicism or 'attack' on the faith. If any other Christian leader or minister had said that, I assure you, we'd still have this discussion.






Galadriel said:


> Because actions are either morally good, morally evil, or morally neutral no matter WHO commits the action.
> 
> When I drink a glass of water, that is a morally neutral act. If I feed a hungry person, that is a morally good act. If I lie, that is a morally evil act.
> 
> ...


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## MrsHaseeb (May 28, 2013)

Laela said:


> You know, it's not even about the pope and Catholicism or 'attack' on the faith. If any other Christian leader or minister had said that, I assure you, we'd still have this discussion.



This.. thank you Laela. This point is exactly why I didn't understand why some were automatically on the defense and why the claims that some of the sisters are unloving. You can't separate love of the brethren from the Church because the Church is a body of Spirit filled believers that can cross any denominational line as we only know in part now and are growing to the measure of the fullness of the stature of Christ. Who knows what Jesus will do with all Holy Spirit filled believers as the end time sequences unfold. A set of doctrines is not the Church and no one is obligated to agree with them. Disagreeing doesn't mean there is a lack of love.

And, it doesn't matter what we have been taught about redemption, it truly must be weighed against the Bible and the Bible plainly states that only those in Christ are redeemed and inherit the final redemption.


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## MrsHaseeb (May 28, 2013)

Duplicate.


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