# Divorce-Now I'm a little confused too



## Chrissy811 (Nov 29, 2009)

...........


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## LifeafterLHCF (Nov 29, 2009)

bumping..this is something I would like to know about


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## Aviah (Nov 29, 2009)

Scripturally I would think her mother was right, but really it is HER walk with God and only He can direct her on it. She's to work out her own salvation, and what He says goes.

As for those people that do not stay single, again only God can judge what they have done, or justify them in it. Given, its not an ideal situation, but I believe God is merciful, but again, each case is different.


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## soulie (Nov 29, 2009)

http://www.divorcehope.com/canchristiansremarryafterdivorce.htm

http://www.russpickett.com/basic/divrem.htm


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## Chrissy811 (Nov 29, 2009)

soulie said:


> http://www.divorcehope.com/canchristiansremarryafterdivorce.htm
> 
> http://www.russpickett.com/basic/divrem.htm



Thanks Soulie I'm going to pass these links on.


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## Sharpened (Nov 30, 2009)

*Matthew 19*

3 The Pharisees also came to him, tempting him, and saying to him, "Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?"

4 And he answered and said to them, "Have you not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female," 5 And said, "For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall join to his wife: and they two shall be one flesh? 6 Why they are no more two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder."

7 They say to him, "Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorce, and to put her away?" 

8 He said to them, "Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, Whoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, commits adultery: and whoever marries her which is put away does commit adultery."

10 His disciples say to him, "If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry." 

11 But he said to them, "All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. 12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."

This same thing is repeated in Mark 10.


*1 Corinthians 7:10-11 *To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

Those two links are for stroking people's ears, not the truth.


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## DarlingNikki (Nov 30, 2009)

> She said her mother told her that was a waste of time to join because she had to stay single and that even if she met a man who she was now equally yoked with she could never marry him because she is divorced and any realtionship she has from now on out is an adulterous one so not to even bother, plan to stay alone forever.





> So now I'm thinking are these peoples second marriages not blessed by God?



Only the _act_ of remarriage in itself is considered adultery...a single sin which IS forgivable.  God DOES NOT view the entire marriage as invalid or adulterous (i.e. it's not a continuous sin as her mom states).

http://www.gotquestions.org/remarriage-adultery.html


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## CandiceC (Nov 30, 2009)

DarlingNikki said:


> Only the _act_ of remarriage in itself is considered adultery...a single sin which IS forgivable.  God DOES NOT view the entire marriage as invalid or adulterous (i.e. it's not a continuous sin as her mom states).
> 
> http://www.gotquestions.org/remarriage-adultery.html




How could the act of remarriage be adulterous, but the relationship not? What about every time the couple has sex? You're saying it's okay with God even though he wouldn't them to go through the act of remarriage in the first place? That would mean that what they did was merely a legal procedure. Doesn't make it right in God's eyes regardless if they ask for forgiveness after the ceremony. If they keep doing what they had to repent for, then they're still in sin.


BTW, I'm one of those that believe remarriage while you have a living spouse is a sin. Based on 1 Corinthians 7:10-11 and 1 Corinthians 7:39.

Remarriage can be a block reconciliation. 

(I know there are lots of people that don't agree. You can find Web sites that tell you what you want to hear and look around at the millions of people that have divorced and remarried. It makes it _look_ like it's okay. There are people that never marry and survive. It might seem unfathomable, but it is possible to live life as a divorcee and not remarry. The objective would be to be reunited with your spouse and have a Christ-filled marriage...)



This is a source I refer people to that breaks down the point and mentions some of the arguments that might come up in this thread:
http://www.libcfl.com/articles/divorce.htm


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## lejardinier (Nov 30, 2009)

I pray for your friend during this time. I recommend that she check out these sites - 2equals1.com and Marriage Ministries. Her mother is right and
'Nymphe' said it again. Once again I know that this is a difficult time but our prayers are with her.


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## Chrissy811 (Nov 30, 2009)

Thanks ladies I have copied the links in the thread and suggested that she seek counsel from her pastor on this matter.


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## Shimmie (Nov 30, 2009)

I personally cannot condemn any Christian who has re-married; for some the divorce occurred before salvation took place.    

However, the concern I have is that Christians should not think that they have a license to divorce and remarry _*at will*_  as in the same manner as the world has done so.   

Those links give mercy to those who have been divorced and re-married, but also a potentially mixed and a scary message.  Some may take it as permission to divorce and to remarry.  

It's not about Playing Marriage Merry go round games; or changing partners, swing to the left,_ doe se doe_ like a barn yard square dance.  

Do not get married 'initially' for the wrong reasons; then there'd be no instances of divorce in the first place.  Unless there are dangerous circmstances involved, be prepared to stick it out and work it out.   

Again, I am not condemning anyone who has been divorced and are now remarried.   I do believe that God's grace and mercy covers re-marriage.  Many women have been abandoned in Marriages and God does not hold them guilty for re-marriage.  

My concern is solely for those who take advantage of God's mercy and those who are foolish and do not respect what Marriage is truly about.


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## Chrissy811 (Nov 30, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> I personally cannot condemn any Christian who has re-married; for some the divorce occurred before salvation took place.
> 
> However, the concern I have is that Christians should not think that they have a license to divorce and remarry _*at will*_  as in the same manner as the world has done so.
> 
> ...



Thanks Shimmie

I deleted the orignal post because I felt that the issue had been addressed and I didnt' want to cause any strife amongst my sisters.  Funny enough I was talking to DH  this morning and his sentiments are similar to yours. He basically said he saw it this way. Try to work out your problems to the best of your ability, seek wise counsel and if I can't be worked out then do what you have to. But don't go into marriage with the mindset if it doesn't work out then I'll just get divorced.  I think that is why marriage counseling should be mandatory before anyone one marries. 

She'll be alright she just really needs to seek the Lord and let him guide her in the matter.  As always she knows she has my shoullder to cry on.


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## Shimmie (Nov 30, 2009)

mrsjones1 said:


> Thanks Shimmie
> 
> I deleted the orignal post because I felt that the issue had been addressed and I didnt' want to cause any strife amongst my sisters. Funny enough I was talking to DH this morning and his sentiments are similar to yours. He basically said he saw it this way. Try to work out your problems to the best of your ability, seek wise counsel and if I can't be worked out then do what you have to. But don't go into marriage with the mindset if it doesn't work out then I'll just get divorced.  I think that is why marriage counseling should be mandatory before anyone one marries.
> 
> She'll be alright she just really needs to seek the Lord and let him guide her in the matter. As always she knows she has my shoullder to cry on.


 
Totally understood and I respect your wisdom in closing the subject.  

Blessings on you for being such a wonderful sister and friend to your friend who is in such need of being helped and understood.  :Rose:


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## LifeafterLHCF (Dec 2, 2009)

I was watching this video..it gave a good understanding behind the divorce thing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3U-PiGo2X8


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## Sharpened (Oct 29, 2017)

The Father gave me correction on this one. 

*sigh*

One can get remarried after divorce, regardless of the reason the divorce occurred. The first link posted still works. The key is to trust and rely on Him, that He will turn our negative situations into good.


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## Galadriel (Oct 30, 2017)

Sharpened said:


> The Father gave me correction on this one.
> 
> *sigh*
> 
> *One can get remarried after divorce, regardless of the reason the divorce occurred*. The first link posted still works. The key is to trust and rely on Him, that He will turn our negative situations into good.



But the problem is that this is not what Jesus Christ taught--I mean, from His very own lips he said that God never wanted or intended for divorce, but men's hearts were hardened. Jesus said that God created man and woman and that a person who divorces his spouse and remarries commits adultery. Unless the first (sacramental) marriage was invalid, then the first marriage still and always will stand, because it's a bond no power on earth can break, as it should be, as marriage is the bedrock and foundation of procreation and childrearing. Because our sinful society has moved SO far away from it, even to the point of allowing mock "gay marriage," we sweep aside these truths.

And even though worldly people/non-Christians give us so much unwarranted flak for so many things, they do have a point--how can we stand up and preach about the sanctity of marriage, etc. when we are on our 2nd, 3rd, or 4th one? When we (general "we") participate in divorce and adultery?

I certainly don't want to jump on anyone individually in this thread, especially when a civil divorce has been obtained for safety and protection (in the case of domestic abuse, severe gambling/addiction, etc.), but I don't like the idea of saying that God or the Bible teaches X about marriage when it actually teaches Y.


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## YvetteWithJoy (Oct 30, 2017)

The hard part for me in all of this is that it puts so much power into the hands of an evil spouse. Say a husband or wife starts acting harmfully or evilly after marriage. The godly spouse loses the freedom to divorce and remarry unless the evil entails adultery. The godly spouse must stay and suffer or leave and be alone -- all because of some OTHER person's behavior. WHAT A SENTENCE! And not even for one's own behavior!!!

It hurts me that God's Word seems to set it up that way. This gives the evil person and behavior the weight and control. This is the toughest Christian thing, for me.

I've read every take on this subject, and this will always pain me extremely deeply, I think.

Lifting prayers for anyone grappling with this.


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## Sharpened (Oct 30, 2017)

Galadriel said:


> But the problem is that this is not what Jesus Christ taught--I mean, from His very own lips he said that God never wanted or intended for divorce, but men's hearts were hardened. Jesus said that God created man and woman and that a person who divorces his spouse and remarries commits adultery. Unless the first (sacramental) marriage was invalid, then the first marriage still and always will stand, because it's a bond no power on earth can break, as it should be, as marriage is the bedrock and foundation of procreation and childrearing. Because our sinful society has moved SO far away from it, even to the point of allowing mock "gay marriage," we sweep aside these truths.
> 
> And even though worldly people/non-Christians give us so much unwarranted flak for so many things, they do have a point--how can we stand up and preach about the sanctity of marriage, etc. when we are on our 2nd, 3rd, or 4th one? When we (general "we") participate in divorce and adultery?
> 
> I certainly don't want to jump on anyone individually in this thread, especially when a civil divorce has been obtained for safety and protection (in the case of domestic abuse, severe gambling/addiction, etc.), but I don't like the idea of saying that God or the Bible teaches X about marriage when it actually teaches Y.


The problem is that we do not have the full context of what the Bible teaches because we do not study the history behind what was said. We cannot continue to look at Scripture through the Western lens and expect things to make sense. Also, Yah, through the Scripture has shown us that He can change how we process life; look at the progression of how He expected the Israelites to behave, changing them from slaves dabbling in things contrary to Him to mostly civilized in comparison to the other groups at the time. We each need to ask Him what we are to do, not anyone or anything else.


YvetteWithJoy said:


> The hard part for me in all of this is that it puts so much power into the hands of an evil spouse. Say a husband or wife starts acting harmfully or evilly after marriage. The godly spouse loses the freedom to divorce and remarry unless the evil entails adultery. The godly spouse must stay and suffer or leave and be alone -- all because of some OTHER person's behavior. WHAT A SENTENCE! And not even for one's own behavior!!!
> 
> It hurts me that God's Word seems to set it up that way. This gives the evil person and behavior the weight and control. This is the toughest Christian thing, for me.
> 
> ...


As I said earlier, people do not know the history behind what Scripture says, taking it out of context. Unfaithfulness in marriage was not just sexual; there was a contract both parties had to fulfill and the Jews had ways to enforce it. A woman had a right to complain to the leadership if her husband abused her. Two or three of the leaders, sometimes one of the fathers, would approach the husband to get the situation sorted out. If that did not work, they had a bunch of 10 called "minions" who would beat the dude up. If that did not work, she had the right to divorce him.

Before Yahshua was born and during his time, there were debates about what constituted divorce terms. The leaders were asking Yahshua what He thought about the issue. He came down on the side of "only adultery" because some were simply kicking their wives out without her "gets" (divorce papers). Anything that polluted the marriage contract was a grounds for divorce, and everything had to be split 50-50.


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## YvetteWithJoy (Oct 30, 2017)

Sharpened said:


> The problem is that we do not have the full context of what the Bible teaches because we do not study the history behind what was said. We cannot continue to look at Scripture through the Western lens and expect things to make sense. Also, Yah, through the Scripture has shown us that He can change how we process life; look at the progression of how He expected the Israelites to behave, changing them from slaves dabbling in things contrary to Him to mostly civilized in comparison to the other groups at the time. We each need to ask Him what we are to do, not anyone or anything else.
> 
> As I said earlier, people do not know the history behind what Scripture says, taking it out of context. Unfaithfulness in marriage was not just sexual; there was a contract both parties had to fulfill and the Jews had ways to enforce it. A woman had a right to complain to the leadership if her husband abused her. Two or three of the leaders, sometimes one of the fathers, would approach the husband to get the situation sorted out. If that did not work, they had a bunch of 10 called "minions" who would beat the dude up. If that did not work, she had the right to divorce him.
> 
> Before Yahshua was born and during his time, there were debates about what constituted divorce terms. The leaders were asking Yahshua what He thought about the issue. He came down on the side of "only adultery" because some were simply kicking their wives out without her "gets" (divorce papers). Anything that polluted the marriage contract was a grounds for divorce, and everything had to be split 50-50.



TFS.

That sounds more in line with my understanding of right and freedom and so forth, which I personally believe are very important to God. I'll have to keep studying, factoring in history. Thanks.


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## Galadriel (Oct 30, 2017)

YvetteWithJoy said:


> The hard part for me in all of this is that it puts so much power into the hands of an evil spouse. Say a husband or wife starts acting harmfully or evilly after marriage. The godly spouse loses the freedom to divorce and remarry unless the evil entails adultery. The godly spouse must stay and suffer or leave and be alone -- all because of some OTHER person's behavior. WHAT A SENTENCE! And not even for one's own behavior!!!
> 
> It hurts me that God's Word seems to set it up that way. This gives the evil person and behavior the weight and control. This is the toughest Christian thing, for me.
> 
> ...



I don't believe it puts power in the hands of an evil spouse, but what it does is empower US to take marriage seriously and make reasonable and strong choices concerning courting and choosing a spouse, and learning how to have God at the center of our marriages. 

And, in our milksop culture we've gotten fat and comfortable and have forgotten how to take up our crosses and follow Christ.

Is marriage easy? No.

Is the state of celibacy easy? No.

Everyone has their cross.

Whatever state you're in, if you ASK God for the grace to help you follow your vocation and do His will, He WILL answer your prayer. By ourselves, we can do nothing, but with Christ, we can do anything.


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## Galadriel (Oct 30, 2017)

Sharpened said:


> The problem is that we do not have the full context of what the Bible teaches because we do not study the history behind what was said. We cannot continue to look at Scripture through the Western lens and expect things to make sense. Also, Yah, through the Scripture has shown us that He can change how we process life; look at the progression of how He expected the Israelites to behave, changing them from slaves dabbling in things contrary to Him to mostly civilized in comparison to the other groups at the time. We each need to ask Him what we are to do, not anyone or anything else.



The idea that if we do enough mental gymnastics and twist Scripture to fit our modern ideals is what helped lead us to the disaster we're witnessing in our culture today. Man may fail to hit the mark (i.e., sin), but God is unchanging.

---

And he answered and said unto them, "Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."

They say unto him, "Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?"

He saith unto them, "Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery."
(Matthew 19:4-9)

---
This isn't mere opinion or cultural shifts--this is the Word of the Lord saying that marriage is to be between one man and woman, for life.


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## YvetteWithJoy (Oct 30, 2017)

Galadriel said:


> I don't believe it puts power in the hands of an evil spouse, but what it does is empower US to take marriage seriously and make reasonable and strong choices concerning courting and choosing a spouse, and learning how to have God at the center of our marriages.
> 
> And, in our milksop culture we've gotten fat and comfortable and have forgotten how to take up our crosses and follow Christ.
> 
> ...



You misunderstand me. My friend married a great guy. For over a decade they had a great life. Then he became a drug addict. Now she is sentenced.

Will you say she didn't take her choice in marriage seriously? How do you know?


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## Sharpened (Oct 30, 2017)

Galadriel said:


> The idea that if we do enough mental gymnastics and twist Scripture to fit our modern ideals is what helped lead us to the disaster we're witnessing in our culture today. Man may fail to hit the mark (i.e., sin), but God is unchanging.
> 
> ---
> 
> ...


Yes, Yah does not change for He has a Plan, a Desire to fulfill. But, He has changed how He deals with us, according to the growth of the human race. People may choose to ignore the context of history and the meaning of words, but His Plan is still unfolding, and changing according to His dynamic Will. Dogma is not a part of His Plan, relationship is. He wants us to seek out His Truth for each of us, not be reliant on Scripture alone. I had to repent (turn away from) parts of the Calvinist doctrine I had agreed with myself. He is enough.



YvetteWithJoy said:


> You misunderstand me. My friend married a great guy. For over a decade they had a great life. Then he became a drug addict. Now she is sentenced.
> 
> Will you say she didn't take her choice in marriage seriously? How do you know?


You are wasting your time. Spirit of religion, need I say more?


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## Galadriel (Oct 30, 2017)

YvetteWithJoy said:


> You misunderstand me. My friend married a great guy. For over a decade they had a great life. Then he became a drug addict. Now she is sentenced.
> 
> Will you say she didn't take her choice in marriage seriously? How do you know?



I wouldn't say she didn't take her choice in marriage seriously. In fact, I could understand why she'd seek a civil divorce. I mentioned earlier about protection/safety such as domestic abuse, gambling and drug addiction. There are definitely cases where for their own spiritual and physical safety and well being, spouses *must* get out and not be legally and financially bound to someone who's addicted to drugs, wasting the family's funds and bill money on gambling, or a violent or drunken abuser. 

But the majority of marriages don't fall apart in our society due to these egregious cases--they fall apart because of money, lack of communication, and lack of commitment:

*why people are divorcing in the united states (source HERE)*
Lack of commitment is the most common reason given by divorcing couples according to a recent national survey. Here are the reasons given and their percentages:


Lack of commitment 73%
Argue too much 56%
Infidelity 55%
Married too young 46%
Unrealistic expectations 45%
Lack of equality in the relationship 44%
Lack of preparation for marriage 41%
Abuse 25%
(Respondents often cited more that one reason, therefore the percentages add up to much more than 100 percent)


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## YvetteWithJoy (Oct 30, 2017)

Galadriel said:


> I don't believe it puts power in the hands of an evil spouse, but what it does is empower US to take marriage seriously and make reasonable and strong choices concerning courting and choosing a spouse, and learning how to have God at the center of our marriages.
> 
> And, in our milksop culture we've gotten fat and comfortable and have forgotten how to take up our crosses and follow Christ.
> 
> ...



The "neat" thing about how it does not give my friend's drug-addict-after-10-years-of-marriage spouse any power in your estimation: He just straight up tells her: "It's me as I am or no one for you, babe. Or God will have you burn in hell."

This is a hard thing. Her poor children. Her finances. The characters being introduced into all of their lives. I almost gasped when I read your words "fat and comfortable." Wow.


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## Sharpened (Oct 30, 2017)

YvetteWithJoy said:


> The "neat" thing about how it does not give my friend's drug-addict-after-10-years-of-marriage spouse any power in your estimation: He just straight up tells her: "It's me as I am or no one for you, babe. Or God will have you burn in hell."
> 
> This is a hard thing. Her poor children. Her finances. The characters being introduced into all of their lives. I almost gasped when I read your words "fat and comfortable." Wow.


Does your friend need prayer or advice?


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## YvetteWithJoy (Oct 30, 2017)

Galadriel said:


> I wouldn't say she didn't take her choice in marriage seriously. In fact, I could understand why she'd seek a civil divorce. I mentioned earlier about protection/safety such as domestic abuse, gambling and drug addiction. There are definitely cases where for their own spiritual and physical safety and well being, spouses *must* get out and not be legally and financially bound to someone who's addicted to drugs, wasting the family's funds and bill money on gambling, or a violent or drunken abuser.
> 
> But the majority of marriages don't fall apart in our society due to these egregious cases--they fall apart because of money, lack of communication, and lack of commitment:
> 
> ...



Even granting this, my point still stands:

If there is an evilly behaving spouse, the rule of only being free to leave if the evil involves adultery is empowering for the evil spouse in a very real way. 

I'll just agree to disagree with you, sis. Much love.


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## Galadriel (Oct 30, 2017)

Sharpened said:


> Yes, Yah does not change for He has a Plan, a Desire to fulfill. But, He has changed how He deals with us, according to the growth of the human race. People may choose to ignore the context of history and the meaning of words, but His Plan is still unfolding, and changing according to His dynamic Will. Dogma is not a part of His Plan, relationship is. He wants us to seek out His Truth for each of us, not be reliant on Scripture alone. I had to repent (turn away from) parts of the Calvinist doctrine I had agreed with myself. He is enough.
> 
> You are wasting your time. Spirit of religion, need I say more?



Well it's good to hear that you no longer hold to certain Calvinist ideals (I rather liked John Wesley and the Methodists far more than Calvinism, JMHO), and while I do not hold to "sola scriptura," (as defined by Martin Luther) I DO hold that Scripture IS the inerrant Word of God and sufficiently teaches and guides us as to Who God is, His plan of salvation, and His requirements and moral commands for us. God gave us the Bible, and it is His Word, and what Scripture teaches is us is completely true, *always,* even when people go crazy and think they know better than His Word.

However, saying God "changes how He deals with us" is a problematic position to take. First, it assumes that God is mutable, or changeable, especially when it comes to objective morality--He is not. It also assumes that God can or will declare sin good--which, again, He would never do, since it's against His nature. It's the same argument secularists make as to why we should accept homosexual acts or unions because of the idea that since people have devolved into sin that God should somehow change and be "dynamic" and allow it.

Also, there is no such thing as "truth for each of us." Truth is OBJECTIVE, not subjective.

And how can we have a relationship with God if we are also in relationship with sin?


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## YvetteWithJoy (Oct 30, 2017)

Sharpened said:


> Does your friend need prayer or advice?



She's hooked up with a great church. Thanks so much for asking. She has help.


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## Sharpened (Oct 30, 2017)

Galadriel said:


> Well it's good to hear that you no longer hold to certain Calvinist ideals (I rather liked John Wesley and the Methodists far more than Calvinism, JMHO), and while I do not hold to "sola scriptura," (as defined by Martin Luther) I DO hold that Scripture IS the inerrant Word of God and sufficiently teaches and guides us as to Who God is, His plan of salvation, and His requirements and moral commands for us. God gave us the Bible, and it is His Word, and what Scripture teaches is us is completely true, *always,* even when people go crazy and think they know better than His Word.
> 
> However, saying God "changes how He deals with us" is a problematic position to take. First, it assumes that God is mutable, or changeable, especially when it comes to objective morality--He is not. It also assumes that God can or will declare sin good--which, again, He would never do, since it's against His nature. It's the same argument secularists make as to why we should accept homosexual acts or unions because of the idea that since people have devolved into sin that God should somehow change and be "dynamic" and allow it.
> 
> ...


You don't know Him.


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## Sharpened (Oct 30, 2017)

YvetteWithJoy said:


> She's hooked up with a great church. Thanks so much for asking. She has help.


Glad to here that.


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## Galadriel (Oct 30, 2017)

Sharpened said:


> You don't know Him.



 Yeah, I don't know this made-up version of God who changes his words based on human desires and where his commands are merely suggestions.


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## Daina (Oct 30, 2017)

Very interesting discussion and one that hits close to home for me. I am divorced and have remarried. I divorced because of adultery committed by my spouse. There were several instances and I did not divorce lightly. This is also a 2nd marriage for my husband who also divorced due to adultery. We sought pre-marital counseling before marrying because we wanted to be in the will of God and were concerned that a 2nd marriage would not be sanctified by God.

Through much prayer and supplication I believe both of our writs of divorce were in accordance to what was laid out in scripture and believe God has sanctified and blessed our current union.


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## Galadriel (Oct 30, 2017)

Daina said:


> Very interesting discussion and one that hits close to home for me. I am divorced and have remarried. I divorced because of adultery committed by my spouse. There were several instances and I did not divorce lightly. This is also a 2nd marriage for my husband who also divorced due to adultery. We sought pre-marital counseling before marrying because we wanted to be in the will of God and were concerned that a 2nd marriage would not be sanctified by God.
> 
> Through much prayer and supplication I believe both of our writs of divorce were in accordance to what was laid out in scripture and believe God has sanctified and blessed our current union.



So sorry to hear of the circumstances of the first marriage. It boggles the mind how some people can go before God and man and make these vows but then turn around and cheat on their spouse with impunity. People who cheat seriously need to check their hearts and minds.


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## Leigh (Oct 31, 2017)

Sharpened said:


> The Father gave me correction on this one.
> 
> *sigh*
> 
> One can get remarried after divorce, regardless of the reason the divorce occurred. The first link posted still works. The key is to trust and rely on Him, that He will turn our negative situations into good.


Not according to scriptures. Corinthians 7 says to remain unmarried. That is because the covenant hasn't been broken. Adultery is a sin against one's own body. Matthew 5 Jesus said to divorce for any reason other than adultery will cause the spouse and the person they marry to commit adultery.


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## Choclatcotton (Oct 31, 2017)

CandiceC said:


> How could the act of remarriage be adulterous, but the relationship not? What about every time the couple has sex? You're saying it's okay with God even though he wouldn't them to go through the act of remarriage in the first place? That would mean that what they did was merely a legal procedure. Doesn't make it right in God's eyes regardless if they ask for forgiveness after the ceremony. If they keep doing what they had to repent for, then they're still in sin.
> 
> 
> BTW, I'm one of those that believe remarriage while you have a living spouse is a sin. Based on 1 Corinthians 7:10-11 and 1 Corinthians 7:39.
> ...


I know it can be a ard saying but this is what i was taut as well 100% to remain unmarried or reconcile.


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## Sharpened (Oct 31, 2017)

Leigh said:


> Not according to scriptures. Corinthians 7 says to remain unmarried. That is because the covenant hasn't been broken. Adultery is a sin against one's own body. Matthew 5 Jesus said to divorce for any reason other than adultery will cause the spouse and the person they marry to commit adultery.


Keep reading what I wrote and ask Him yourself. Where is the mercy? Where is the knowledge of historical context? Where is the Spiritual guidance? This is why the church system is failing society - no true trust of His leading, just continued misinterpretation and pretext of Scripture, beating people with it until they turn a deaf ear to your so-called "righteousness." Where is the love? Is being right better than love?


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## Daina (Oct 31, 2017)

Galadriel said:


> So sorry to hear of the circumstances of the first marriage. It boggles the mind how some people can go before God and man and make these vows but then turn around and cheat on their spouse with impunity. People who cheat seriously need to check their hearts and minds.



Agreed, I'm just grateful for God's grace and mercy throughout my first marriage and the favor he is showing to me this time around. I pray that God keeps my mind constantly but should either of us lose it and get divorced there will be no 3rd marriage for me!


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## Sharpened (Oct 31, 2017)

Some would say my marriage is not properly blessed because we went to the courthouse to do it. Still together 20 years later, despite all our struggles. He arraigned our union and we dedicated it to Him. I trust Him in its maintenance and He has surprised me so much over the years. A blessing to the Lord for that!


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## Daina (Oct 31, 2017)

Sharpened said:


> Some would say my marriage is not properly blessed because we went to the courthouse to do it. Still together 20 years later, despite all our struggles. He arraigned our union and we dedicated it to Him. I trust Him in its maintenance and He has surprised me so much over the years. A blessing to the Lord for that!



@Sharpened, 20 years is an accomplishment to be celebrated! Prayers and blessings for the next 20.


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## Sharpened (Oct 31, 2017)

Daina said:


> @Sharpened, 20 years is an accomplishment to be celebrated! Prayers and blessings for the next 20.


Thank you! Blessings to you and yours as well.


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## Sharpened (Nov 2, 2017)

Hopefully, my last post on the subject. Please, let the Holy Spirit be your guide in all things.

The Wife's Grounds for Divorce



> The right of the wife to demand a divorce is as legally entrenched as is the right of the husband to demand a divorce. This legal entrenchment goes all the way back to biblical times, and is not merely an adjustment to more modern contingencies.





> The husband who hits his wife, curses her, ridicules her, insults her, or insults his wife's parents in the presence of his wife, or forbids his wife from visiting her parents or family, or whose general mode of communication with his wife is through temperamental outbursts and disrespectful language, creates a situation which is untenable. The wife cannot be expected to live in such an environment, and she is well within her rights to demand a divorce.
> 
> In this situation, the wife must be able to show that this is not a rare occurrence, or an isolated outburst, but that it is reflective of the husband's usual demeanor. Should a husband counterclaim with the charge that his behavior is instigated by her, the burden of proof is upon him. We assume the correctness of the wife's position unless and until the husband can prove otherwise.


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## YvetteWithJoy (Nov 2, 2017)

Sharpened said:


> Hopefully, my last post on the subject. Please, let the Holy Spirit be your guide in all things.
> 
> The Wife's Grounds for Divorce



TFS, @Sharpened.

I clicked the link and read.

It was so encouraging to read. However, I have the following super genuine questions:

1) Just because somebody wrote it doesn't mean GOD permits it. So, why is it believed that God permits all of that stuff at the link?
2) Why isn't the information in the link in the bible? That stuff is VERY important.
3) Why should people feel comfortable following the guidelines in the post over the scripture in the bible?

I ask, not be cantankerous or argument or anything like that (you "know" me), but because I truly would like responses to the questions above. Because it would be a huge relief if we could  know that God permits it.

Thanks, sis!


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## Sharpened (Nov 2, 2017)

YvetteWithJoy said:


> TFS, @Sharpened.
> 
> I clicked the link and read.
> 
> ...


You have to remember historical context, meaning what was the mindset at the time. What I posted Jesus would have known. The Jewish converts understood their instructions and tried their best to explain it to Gentiles; many letters were lost to time. Remember what John said, not all of the things Jesus did were written. Some things were established by principle, meaning based on the 10 Commandments, how would Yah want this handled. So, whose fault is it that the Gentiles did not include these concepts and explanations when they decided what would be in the Bible?

Ultimately, the Father Creator Himself is the final authority and we have to get to know and trust Him on a supernatural level. This is why He has said over and over, "Seek Me!"


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## Leigh (Nov 4, 2017)

Sharpened said:


> Keep reading what I wrote and ask Him yourself. Where is the mercy? Where is the knowledge of historical context? Where is the Spiritual guidance? This is why the church system is failing society - no true trust of His leading, just continued misinterpretation and pretext of Scripture, beating people with it until they turn a deaf ear to your so-called "righteousness." Where is the love? Is being right better than love?


??!!??Huh?


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## Leigh (Nov 4, 2017)

YvetteWithJoy said:


> TFS, @Sharpened.
> 
> I clicked the link and read.
> 
> ...




ROM 3:4
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

God only permits what He says is permissible. If it's directly against scripture, it's directly against God. 

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.


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## YvetteWithJoy (Nov 4, 2017)

Leigh said:


> ROM 3:4
> God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
> 
> God only permits what He says is permissible. If it's directly against scripture, it's directly against God.
> ...



Thanks for sharing. I have been a Christian and studying the bible for decades. Look at these two scriptures. Which does Jesus (who is both God and man, according to the scripture) permit:

*Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. — Matthew 5:16*

Or is it . . .

*Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. —Matthew 6:1*

This is just one example related to just ONE of many, many, many, many reasons that people are trying to RIGHTLY DIVIDE scriptures, read them in historical context for insight, quench not the Spirit of God but stay open to His real-time revelation, listen to God, hear God, etc.

There is the printed word . . . and then there is Someone that is beyond it.

I could list many more sets of scriptures that seem to be saying the opposite of one another, that contain contradictory numbers/facts, etc.

-------------------

Do you wear a head covering according to I Corinthians 11:5-6? Do you cover your head every time before you pray?

*"But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is the same as having her head shaved. For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head."*​
Do you attend a church wherein women are not permitted to speak? 1 Timothy 2:11 reinforces what 1 Corinthians 14:34:

*"Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says."*​


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## YvetteWithJoy (Nov 4, 2017)

@Leigh, also, I shared this with someone else:

I know a ton of Christians, many with advanced degrees in theology from traditionally Christian schools as well as the Ivy League (only since I'm an Ivy Leaguer.) I've watched these people from age 20 to 40 as they earned their theology degrees, learned the ancient languages, and studied the bible in those languages alongside historical documents from those times.

Every single one of these people tell me that the bible reads and "means" much differently than most English speakers know.

That concerned me. So I read and read, studied and studied. I have learned that some Christians are on a walk anchored in scripture but much more dynamic and real-time spiritual than most. They know that print/words point the way to something unwritable, the Spirit. Sixty-six books/letters can lay a foundation and point the way, but could never contain God. So for them they are on a dynamic walk, anchored in the printed word without deifying it, instead worshipping the living Word.

If I had not seen so many brilliant, super strict, scripture-intense theology students walk that same path, I would think it was just getting too learned and "intellectual" for their own good! But these are some of the sincerest, humblest, God-fearing, kingdom workers I know!

One guy in particular told me about the day he learned that there had to be other people besides Adam and Eve that were made, else who did their children marry? He learned the science behind this: There had to be other people. He began looking at the scripture differently -- not as false, but "rightly dividing" it.

Another dedicated friend studying to become a preacher almost left the faith after comparing and contrasting Jesus's words with Paul's.

I say ALL of that to say: I interact with people who love the Lord according to the path they seem to be on. I have friends who believe that because musical instruments and clapping during worshipping singing cannot be found BY EXAMPLE in the NEW Testament, anyone who does so will spend eternity in hell. Yes. There are tens of thousands of Christians who believe this. They believe Jesus's entry did away with the OT as law, along with instruments. They cite Ephesians 5:19 to prove it. It says "sing" not "play" for a reason. Instrumental music brings in emotionalism, etc., versus singing which must necessarily be an active act, not the passive listening to instruments.

Now, I believe these folks are sincere in their strong desire to follow the scripture. I don't think that means that baptized believers who allow worship music to accompany their singing are hellbound.

In a similar way, I don't judge others who are founding their relationship in the scripture yet seeking to experience God beyond print. I can't know exactly what God is showing them. I can't even know if the voice they are hearing is God's or not. I know I have finally learned to simply pray that they are not led astray, as God conceives it, not my finite human mind.

Instead of trying to throw a more exacting scriptural approach on these people, I consider, then pray over my AND their study (and thinking) on what they share.

ETA: AN IMPORTANT GUIDELINE I'VE FOUND is in 2 Peter 1:20:

Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation of things.

So, I don't take individual's interpretations. Trust me! I listen without judging and study galore and pray galore!


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## Sharpened (Nov 4, 2017)

The way some people believe, should we still be slaves?


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## Leigh (Nov 4, 2017)

YvetteWithJoy said:


> @Leigh, also, I shared this with someone else:
> 
> I know a ton of Christians, many with advanced degrees in theology from traditionally Christian schools as well as the Ivy League (only since I'm an Ivy Leaguer.) I've watched these people from age 20 to 40 as they earned their theology degrees, learned the ancient languages, and studied the bible in those languages alongside historical documents from those times.
> 
> ...



As do I. I also study the original Greek as much as possible.  

Disclaimer: I'll have to re-read this later to make sure I didn't miss anything. I skimmed.


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## Leigh (Nov 4, 2017)

YvetteWithJoy said:


> Thanks for sharing. I have been a Christian and studying the bible for decades. Look at these two scriptures. Which does Jesus (who is both God and man, according to the scripture) permit:
> 
> *Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. — Matthew 5:16*
> 
> ...


Those scriptures are not contradictory. One is saying not to broadcast helping others. There are people who will give a person a slice of bread and run around town telling everyone. They are doing it to get accolades. Letting your light shine has to do with how you present yourself. So if you help someone out of love and do it discreetly, you have fulfilled both scriptures.


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## Leigh (Nov 4, 2017)

YvetteWithJoy said:


> Thanks for sharing. I have been a Christian and studying the bible for decades. Look at these two scriptures. Which does Jesus (who is both God and man, according to the scripture) permit:
> 
> *Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. — Matthew 5:16*
> 
> ...


What was going on in that text? The wives were talking over their husbands, acting out of order, while the men were not stepping up. Who was the head? Appeared to be role reversal going on. The man is the head. God demands order.


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## Leigh (Nov 4, 2017)

Sharpened said:


> The way some people believe, should we still be slaves?



Ephesians 6

6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;

We are to be slaves of Christ.


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## Sharpened (Nov 4, 2017)

Leigh said:


> Ephesians 6
> 
> 6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
> 
> We are to be slaves of Christ.


But the way some people interpret Scripture, we should still be slaves on the Southern plantations.


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## YvetteWithJoy (Nov 4, 2017)

Leigh said:


> What was going on in that text? The wives were talking over their husbands, acting out of order, while the men were not stepping up. Who was the head? Appeared to be role reversal going on. The man is the head. God demands order.



So you are saying that this means we can ignore these scriptures? That they don't apply to us today or in general? They were for that group? Because of what was going on? We can throw those scriptures out in cases where women aren't acting out of order, and in those cases women are fully permitted to speak in the church?

That is the EXACT SAME REASONING by which people argue their case on divorce:
"We can ignore that scripture. They apply to THAT group because of ______ (fill in the blank) and because of what was going on. We are fully permitted to divorce in these cases, and we know this because of the church records . . ."

---------- 

What happens is that people will take the "Women can't speak in church" scripture and say, "Oh, but they can." 

And then someone takes the "People can't divorce scripture" and say, "Oh, but they can." 

And then these two groups argue that *they* are permitted to go beyond the scripture and factor in context and history or the spirit of the law or what have you, but *you're* not.


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## YvetteWithJoy (Nov 4, 2017)

I didn't find out from you, @Leigh, what we are supposed to do with the scripture below.

Do you wear a head covering according to I Corinthians 11:5-6? Do you cover your head every time before you pray? Should we all be covering our heads in order to pray? If no, how do you know? What happens if we don't cover our heads to pray? Does that mean we are going to hell? Does it mean that every prayer I've said with my head uncovered has been a sin and grieved God?

*"But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is the same as having her head shaved. For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head."*


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## Leigh (Nov 4, 2017)

YvetteWithJoy said:


> So you are saying that this means we can ignore these scriptures? That they don't apply to us today or in general? They were for that group? Because of what was going on? We can throw those scriptures out in cases where women aren't acting out of order, and in those cases women are fully permitted to speak in the church?
> 
> That is the EXACT SAME REASONING by which people argue their case on divorce:
> "We can ignore that scripture. They apply to THAT group because of ______ (fill in the blank) and because of what was going on. We are fully permitted to divorce in these cases, and we know this because of the church records . . ."
> ...


??? The scriptures support one another and apply to us. They don't contradict. We are to let our light shine. That does not mean to boast. God does not like that and commands us not to do it. Question: Why would someone wait until they have an audience to help another person?

Helping someone privately is both letting your light shine as well as bringing discreetly. 

I will have to answer your other questions later. I will answer them though.


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## YvetteWithJoy (Nov 4, 2017)

Leigh said:


> ??? The scriptures support one another and apply to us. They don't contradict. We are to let our light shine. That does not mean to boast. God does not like that and commands us not to do it. Question: Why would someone wait until they have an audience to help another person?
> 
> Helping someone privately is both letting your light shine as well as bringing discreetly.
> 
> I will have to answer your other questions later. I will answer them though.



Thanks! I appreciate the conversation.

I was asking whether the scripture about women not being permitted to speak in the church applies to us . . . or do you believe it only applies to that group because the women were being out of place?

The scripture just simply says that women are to be silent in church.

But then, if you allow yourself to say, "Well, the scripture does say that women must be silent, but that was for the group he was addressing because of _____ (whatever reason)," 

. . . Then you can see why others will say, "Well, the scripture does say that people are not to divorce, but that was for the group he was addressing because of _____ (whatever reason)."


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## Sharpened (Nov 5, 2017)

Leigh said:


> ??!!??Huh?


Does the historical context, meaning what was going on at the time something was written, matter?


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## YvetteWithJoy (Nov 8, 2017)

Bumping!

Looking forward to hearing from someone who reads the NT in the Greek, @Leigh. I appreciate your insight!


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