# What are the Basic Differences Between Religion and the Gospel



## makeupgirl (Mar 15, 2012)

What are the Basic Differences Between Religion and the Gospel?

Religion says, “Do good, keep on doing good, and eventually you will become good.' The gospel says, “First of all, you must become good by the grace of God, and then it shall follow as day follows night that you win do good.”

Religion says, “Tell the truth, keep on telling the Truth, and you will become honest.' 'The gospel says, “First of all be honest in heart and then you will tell the truth.”

Religion places the emphasis on principles, precincts. Religion places the emphasis on principles, precincts, codes and creeds. The *Gospel* places the emphasis on a Person.

Religion says. “attain” by your own deeds. The *Gospel* says “obtain” by what Jesus did.

Religion places the prime emphasis upon your doing. Religion places the prime emphasis upon your doing. The *Gospel* places the emphasis upon being.

Religion claims mans merit in the work he does; the *Gospel* calls on Gods mercy in the work that he did.

Religion says attempt the *Gospel* says accept to Receive.

Religion says 'try”; the Gospel says trust.

Religion says “develop yourself” the *Gospel* says deny _yourself.”_

Religion says man is good, the *Gospel* says man is not.

Religion is always threatened by Jesus' teaching on grace...Why?

Religion says, 'Do! Do this and do that and you might make it.” The gospel says, “It is done! Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, then you do your deeds out of love!”

Religion says 'save yourself; the *Gospel* says surrender yourself.
Salvation comes not by believing in God but in the gospel.

All religions recognize Jesus as a great teacher or prophet. however they all demote him to be just one of many other teachers and they will elevate man as having the potential to be just like him, almost every religion that has come along since Christ includes his name or teaching since he can’t be excluded. Yet among all these spiritual teachers there is only one who stands contrary to their opinion, Jesus.

The solution from the other religions vary in some ways but they all have a common denominator. That all state we can pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps. That man is inherently good.

Bahai's claim that by education we can see mankind have what Christ alone promises they deny that there is any sin to deal with. That Christ is only one who is God in a succession of manifestations, Baha'u'lla is greater despite that he is dead and buried and waiting to be judged.

Mormons- Mormons say There is no sin passed on . Christ died for only some of our sins not all of them. And that they receive salvation by working and obeying the laws and ordinances of the Mormon church.

Jehovah's Witnesses - To be right with God you must join their church and be found working going door to door when he comes or else your snuffed out.

As in Islam Jesus is a prophet in the line of many prophets and that Muhammad is greater. That he didn’t die for our sins nor did he resurrect. We can be cleansed from our sins by doing what is right. Hopefully he will accept us but there is no guarantees. All these religions have a common denominator and that is Works are involved for one to be accepted by God.

We can’t be left to our own opinions of who Jesus is but need to listen to what he said of himself .Either he told the truth or he lied. If it is not the absolute truth than we shouldn’t pay attention to anything he says and he is not a good teacher either.

While all the religions use Jesus, Jesus never quotes from any other writings than the bible. But it seems all the others quote from the bible and Jesus. Why? because anyone who recognizes good has to recognize Jesus , he was the ultimate good In a human being. Of course he was more than what would meet the eye he was God.

Religion may give you something to live by, but Christianity will give you something to die by.

Religion leans on books of instruction, while Christianity stands on the Book of inspiration. While many people die for what they believe is the truth no one dies for what they know is a lie, especially numerous followers (millions).

There are many gospels of supposition, but only one gospel that saves (1 Cor. I5: 1-4).

There may be a bit of truth in each religion, but Christianity alone is altogether true.

Religion talks about a god but it is only empty philosophy since it has no way of knowing if it is correct; Christianity alone reveals the true God. '

There is wide assortment of religion, but Christianity is unique, absolute, and final.

Acts 1:3 He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.” these were written down

2 Pet 1:16-17: “For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty.

For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

Are there many ways to God? Jesus made it clear that most people are on the broad way, the interstate of life leads straight to hell (Matthew 7:13-14). Jesus made it very clear that _“many _“ religious leaders miss Heaven (vs. 21-23). Jesus exposed the religious hypocrites. He said they were headed for hell! (Matthew 23:33). Dear soul, are you on the broad way or the narrow way? 

What does God's Word say about the way?
We need a savior not more rules and regulations for our behavior. We need the power of God for a change of heart .

_*What Doesn’t Save* _​ 
A church can’t save. Salvation is not church membership but relationship. Worshipping can’t. One can worship God but for true worship to be done it must be in spirit and in truth, Your Baptism can’t change the fallen nature of man. You go down a dry sinner you’ll come up a wet one. can’t, worshipping can’t, your Baptism can’t change the nature of man. You go down a dry sinner you’ll come up a wet one.

Neither can keeping the laws, which is salvation by obedience. Or keeping a day such as the Sabbath day can’t, its only a shadow of the true substance which is greater.

Your good works and conscientious help and love to the poor do not merit gods favor and is actually a affront to what he offers freely by Christ.

Mary the mother of Jesus humanity can’t save either she needed help too, she’s just another saint in heaven praising the Lord for his salvation. the mother of Jesus humanity can’t save either she needed help too, she’s just another saint in heaven praising the Lord for his salvation.

Even your prayers can’t save, without you praying a one time prayer of repentance by faith all your prayers cannot merit right standing before God. If you don’t turn to your life over to God he can’t hear the prayer of a sinner.

Neither can knowledge or Doctrine, because if your right on everything and have not met the risen savior with a change of heart by a new nature its all for nothing. First comes grace then comes the true knowledge. 

What saves then. Only God can save through Christ. No one can be good enough on their own. God has already done the work it is finished over 1960 yrs. ago. We are not saved by our own goodness, behavior or works but by grace.

Why in the world do you want to add to it today by something you can’t do. Jesus Christ who is God became man only once and died only once accomplishing what none of us can. He alone has the key to free someone from their jail cell of sin. This is Gods way, a simple single rd. that everyone can come to him by.

Gods way is a person so that even the children can come to him without complicating rules to remember . All religions claim to reach to God but Christianity is different it is God seeing our predicament and reaching down to man. He took the initiative out of love and we are given a choice to respond. No other religion has this simplicity.

Christianity is summed up in the person of Christ. If you take Buddha out of Buddhism, Mohammed out of Islam…,Krishna out of Hinduism…, Baha'u'lla out of Bahaism…you still have their teachings, they are all doing quite well without their teacher being alive today. If you take Christ out of Christianity, if he didn’t rise you have nothing. Religions “ point to' the graves of their a leaders, no matter how brave or how ingenious they all lie there waiting for their day to stand before the God they wanted to know; only Christianity points to an empty tomb


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## makeupgirl (Mar 15, 2012)

Cont'

The difference is Jesus preached himself as the true and eternal God, the way is a person not rules, not religious service. Religion offers us a set of teachings and says, "Accept these; believe and follow these." The gospel presents a Person and says, "Accept Him; believe and *follow Him*." This does not mean we dispense with standards but it does mean we find the standards in a living savior who did them all perfectly.​ 
Do all Roads. Lead to God. Yes! They certainly do- but not all Roads lead to God with the same results. Only one Road leads to him in forgiveness, fellowship and eternal life. All other Roads lead to him in judgment, so the other religions are partially right. But I don’t want to be traveling on the rd of judgment with them. What are you hoping for on the day of reckoning. On the day of resurrection you can be raised in your sins or apart from them. How Are you going to be raised? Incorruptible or to suffer even more for your corruption. There are no second chances once its over. Its been said on the day we appear before him, we will find Gods love is greater than we thought, sin was more destructive and Jesus was more needed.

Religion is operated by the fallen nature, only those who believe the Gospel receive the Spirit and operate in God. Religion puts people in spiritual and psychological bondage, the Gospel frees someone into the ultimate liberation of their soul.

Religion is good views on life; the gospel is good news about eternal life.

Religion is good advice to man; the gospel is a glorious announcement to mankind.

Religion takes a man and leaves him as he is; the gospel takes a man as he is and makes him what he ought to be

Religion leads to an outer reformation; the gospel leads to an inner transformation. Once the inside is transformed the outward will certainly follow.

Religion whitewashes the truth; the *Gospel* washes white with the truth.

Religion often becomes a farce; the *Gospel* is always a force, it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes.

There are many religions for many cultures, but there is only one *Gospel* for all cultures for all time.

Many people are afraid thinking what will my friends think of me? It takes a strong person and individual thinker to make a decision on his own and not care about others opinions of himself. Do your friends care for your soul more than God?

The Bible asks what will a man give in exchange for his soul, trading in our religion for a relationship is not a loss but a eternal gain. Don't procrastinate today is the day of salvation!

info via here


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## Galadriel (Mar 15, 2012)

What is up with the "I hate religion, but love Jesus" movement?

Christianity is a religion. There is nothing wrong with that. It is GOOD. It is the True religion. 

I think when people (who identify themselves as believers) bash religion, maybe they're just bashing institutionalized religion. But didn't Christ institute a Church? 




makeupgirl said:


> _*What Doesn’t Save* _​
> A church can’t save. Salvation is not church membership but relationship.



I agree that being a member of the Church isn't an automatic pass to Heaven. Salvation = Justification + Sanctification.
With that said, it is obvious that God's chosen vehicle or instrument to bring people to salvation is His Church.

Matthew 16:17-19 Christ tells Peter (Cephas) that he is Cephas, and on this Cephas He will build His Church, and He will give him the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, and whatever Cephas binds or looses on earth is bound  and loosed in Heaven. Binding and loosing is very significant here, because in Jewish law, binding and loosing means the authority to permit or forbid (in religious and moral law).

Christ would not have given us His Bride, the Church, through which the Gospel is preached, and God's laws are upheld and proclaimed, if there were no use for her in His plan of salvation.



makeupgirl said:


> Worshipping can’t. One can worship God but for true worship to be done it must be in spirit and in truth,



The First Command God explicitly gives to mankind is to worship Him. Of course His people will worship Him in spirit and truth.



makeupgirl said:


> Your Baptism can’t change the fallen nature of man. You go down a dry sinner you’ll come up a wet one.



St. Peter declares to the crowd astounded by his  preaching: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of  Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the  gift of the Holy Spirit."26 



The apostles and their collaborators offer Baptism to anyone who believed in Jesus: Jews, the God-fearing, pagans.27 



 Always, Baptism is seen as connected with faith: "Believe in the Lord  Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household," St. Paul declared  to his jailer in Philippi. And the narrative continues, the jailer "was  baptized at once, with all his family."28


*1227*  According to the Apostle Paul, the believer enters through Baptism into  communion with Christ's death, is buried with him, and rises with him:  

Do you not know that all of us who have  been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were  buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was  raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in  newness of life.29   The baptized have "put on Christ."30 Through the Holy Spirit, Baptism is a bath that purifies, justifies, and sanctifies.31


26 _Acts_ 2:38.
27 Cf. _Acts_ 2:41; 8:12-13; 10:48; 16:15.
28 _Acts_ 16:31-33.
29 _Rom_ 6:3-4; cf. _Col_ 2:12.
30 _Gal_ 3:27.
31 CE _1 Cor_ 6:11; 12:13.  




makeupgirl said:


> Neither can keeping the laws, which is salvation by obedience.



Salvation is not something we earn, true, but keeping God's Law is part of our sanctification process and something God directly commands us to do.



makeupgirl said:


> Or keeping a day such as the Sabbath day can’t, its only a shadow of the true substance which is greater.



Keeping the Sabbath is God's fourth commandment.



makeupgirl said:


> Your good works and conscientious help and love to the poor do not merit gods favor and is actually a affront to what he offers freely by Christ.



If one depends on good works for justification, then that person is sorely mistaken. However good works in the sanctification process are pleasing to God and meritorious.

James 2:14-18 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but  does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has  nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to  them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them  the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself,  if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, "You have  faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and  I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. James 2:26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. Mt 16:27 For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.   *1st Corinthians 3:13-14* 


"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward*."*




makeupgirl said:


> Mary the mother of Jesus humanity can’t save either she needed help too,



Who says she didn't need help too? We believe God redeemed her at the moment of her conception.



makeupgirl said:


> she’s just another saint in heaven praising the Lord for his salvation.



I agree she's a saint in Heaven praising God for her salvation, however she shares a unique relationship with Jesus Christ as His Mother. 

Luke 1:28 "Hail, full of grace...the Lord is with thee."

Luke 1:48 "Generation after generation shall call me blessed..."

In a sense, Mary is the first Christian. She accepted Christ the Savior, the promised Messiah in her heart and miraculously by the power of the Holy Spirit, in her womb. He took His human flesh from her, was raised and loved by her, and when many of His disciples fled the Crucifixion, she stood there at the Cross. 

Also, please be careful about separating Jesus' Divine Nature from His human nature. Jesus Christ is fully man AND fully God. Mary didn't just give birth to the "human nature" of Jesus--she gave birth to the God-Man. Jesus Christ is True Man and True God. His divinity was never lessened by becoming Incarnate, and His humanity was never lessened by possessing a Divine nature.




makeupgirl said:


> Even your prayers can’t save, without you praying a one time prayer of repentance by faith all your prayers cannot merit right standing before God. If you don’t turn to your life over to God he can’t hear the prayer of a sinner.



Some of these lines are vague and can apply to many Christian denominations (and even Judaism), and some of them are targeted at Catholicism. I'm not sure of any Judeo-Christian faith that states that praying will justify you or save you. 

Prayer is communion with God, and it's part of the spiritual exercise of the Christian.



makeupgirl said:


> Neither can knowledge or Doctrine, because if your right on everything and have not met the risen savior with a change of heart by a new nature its all for nothing. First comes grace then comes the true knowledge.



Again, another vague sentence. Knowledge is important--in order to accept Christ, we must know about Him. In order to obey God's law, we must know it. In order to preach and teach others about the Gospel--we must know it. Doctrine is an explicitly defined belief, like the Holy Trinity. Doctrine is good because it helps us to know and understand the faith and God's truths.


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## LucieLoo12 (Mar 15, 2012)

This allll day long! I really do think this is a trick from the devil, i really do. When i hear people say stuff like I am spiritual but not religious, I get skeptical. Why? because alot of times when I hear them out, it is just a justification of why they dont want to stop committing certain sins and fully surrender. Not all cases, but most.






Galadriel said:


> *What is up with the "I hate religion, but love Jesus" movement?*
> 
> *Christianity is a religion. There is nothing wrong with that. It is GOOD. It is the True religion. *
> 
> ...


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## Galadriel (Mar 15, 2012)

Alicialynn86 said:


> This allll day long! I really do think this is a trick from the devil, i really do. When i hear people say stuff like I am spiritual but not religious, I get skeptical. Why? because alot of times when I hear them out, it is just a justification of why they dont want to stop committing certain sins and fully surrender. Not all cases, but most.



Seriously, I know we get flack all the time from the secularists about how "religion is evil...causes wars, etc." (never mind the fact that atheist-secular regimes in the 20th century killed more people than anyone else) however this move away from institutionalized Christianity to fluffy "Just me and Jesus" is why we have 40,000 denominations.

One can be part of the visible Church *and* love and follow Christ in their interior life (aka personal relationship with Christ).


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## makeupgirl (Mar 15, 2012)

Look! I never post this to offend or to bash other religions.  This is something that I was reading that God laid on my heart to share and post.  Personally, if you're offended or a nerve was touched, maybe something in the article that stood out that may be bringing something to attention that needed to be brought up.

Also, Satan has been at work in this thread with some major trickery by trying to blind with what is the truth and what is sounds good.  Sorry, that what God wants us to do aint pretty but when it comes to serving and obeying the Lord, we got to get over ourselves and do what he says to do.  

Religion is man's attempt to reach God by their own efforts. Is anyone guilty of this?  That's between you and God.  But if there is one thing I've learned doing my walk with the Lord, nothing is by accident.  There is a reason why I read that article, there is a reason why I was to post that article, and there is a reason for the reactions that will be or already given.  

All I know is, I'm not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ because it is the power of salvation.  I'm not afraid to stand up for what the gospel means, which is the death, burial, resurrection of Jesus Christ.  It is not religion or doing what the world wants us to do.  

Satan is laughing at those who say "i'm a christian" but have no relationship with Christ.  He's laughing because he knows that these people still belong to him.  He's laughing because although he want us true believers to slip up, he wants more than ever to hold on to the ones that still belong to him and ironically it's not those who boldly say "I don't want any part of being a Christian" "I don't want to deal with that mess" "I know I'm going hell".  No it's those who say "I'm going to heaven and I know I'm saved because I tithe, I sing in the choir, I'm doing cartwheels in the name of Jesus, feeding the poor, not cussing, not having road rage, and I'm a good person" This is who he laughs at the most.  It's his 24/7 sitcom line up.  

Those that knows me on here knows that I don't speak (ok type) unless I truly have something to say.  I guess it's not by accident either.  God knows what he's doing.  Listen to him by studying his word. Any day now he's coming back.  and I'll leave it at that.


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## dicapr (Mar 15, 2012)

I think the movement is a reaction to those in Christianity following the "rules" without the spirit of love or the understanding of grace behind those rules.  Loving Jesus does not mean that they do not want to follow the teachings and commandments, but they realize the only way to truly please God is to worship in Spirit and Truth.  Somewhere along the way churches began focusing more of the do's and dont's and neglected to emphasis the motivation of love behind each commandment.  Some rejected Christianity based on the emphasis of rules and condemnation only to discover grace and love later in their journey.  They now do the same things taught to them but with a different spirit and motivation.  So instead of giving a long, drawn out explanation they just say they hate religion (the rules without love and grace) and love Jesus (serving God with gratitude and love).


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## Galadriel (Mar 15, 2012)

makeupgirl said:


> Look! I never post this to offend or to bash other religions.  This is something that I was reading that God laid on my heart to share and post.  Personally, if you're offended or a nerve was touched, maybe something in the article that stood out that may be bringing something to attention that needed to be brought up.



I'm not offended, please don't take my post as an attack. I'm aware that the post you shared is someone else's writing, so the "you" in my response should be taken as a "general you" and not "you" specifically  However, I do stand by my statements that there is a problem with the "I hate religion but love Jesus" mentality.



makeupgirl said:


> Also, Satan has been at work in this thread with some major trickery by trying to blind with what is the truth and what is sounds good.  Sorry, that what God wants us to do aint pretty but when it comes to serving and obeying the Lord, we got to get over ourselves and do what he says to do.



What "trickery"?



makeupgirl said:


> Religion is man's attempt to reach God by their own efforts.



If that's how you define it, then that's your choice. Christianity is a religion, and it doesn't degrade the Christian faith in the least to say so.




makeupgirl said:


> All I know is, I'm not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ because it is the power of salvation.



Neither am I ashamed.




makeupgirl said:


> Satan is laughing at those who say "i'm a christian" but have no relationship with Christ.  He's laughing because he knows that these people still belong to him.



You rashly judge those who may very well have a relationship with Christ and who also are members of the visible Church.



makeupgirl said:


> He's laughing because although he want us true believers to slip up, he wants more than ever to hold on to the ones that still belong to him and ironically it's not those who boldly say "I don't want any part of being a Christian" "I don't want to deal with that mess" "I know I'm going hell".  No it's those who say "I'm going to heaven and I know I'm saved because I tithe, I sing in the choir, I'm doing cartwheels in the name of Jesus, feeding the poor, not cussing, not having road rage, and I'm a good person" This is who he laughs at the most.  It's his 24/7 sitcom line up.



I think the article you posted confuses justification with sanctification. Not only does it passes judgment on those who participate in the visible Church, but it also hinges on heresy by attempting to separate Christ's Divine and human nature.


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## auparavant (Mar 15, 2012)

Do they get baptised as per Christ's commandment?  It would seem to me that it is an enticement to leave the tenets of the faith and the form of the church.  Anyone should be careful about it.


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## Galadriel (Mar 15, 2012)

dicapr said:


> I think the movement is a reaction to those in Christianity following the "rules" without the spirit of love or the understanding of grace behind those rules.  Loving Jesus does not mean that they do not want to follow the teachings and commandments, but they realize the only way to truly please God is to worship in Spirit and Truth.  Somewhere along the way churches began focusing more of the do's and dont's and neglected to emphasis the motivation of love behind each commandment.  Some rejected Christianity based on the emphasis of rules and condemnation only to discover grace and love later in their journey.  They now do the same things taught to them but with a different spirit and motivation.  So instead of giving a long, drawn out explanation they just say they hate religion (the rules without love and grace) and love Jesus (serving God with gratitude and love).



I agree that some people just do the "outward motions" without cultivating interior holiness (sanctification), but the article posted condemned several aspects of Christianity, especially within Catholic Christianity.

"Mary doesn't save,"...umm, who said she did?
"Baptism leaves you a sinner and has nothing to do with salvation"...even though Scripture demonstrates otherwise
"The Church doesn't save,"  Christ saves _through_ His Church
"Prayer doesn't save" --who said it did? Who teaches this?
"Doctrine doesn't save"--doctrine is an explicit definition of God's revealed truths of religion. Things like the Trinity, Christ's Divinity, etc. are all "doctrine" These are extremely important.

It takes sacraments and even the concept of Christian Doctrine and say "they don't save" even though it never mentions who actually believes or teaches that these things save. In other words, the article condemns and lashes out at aspects of Christianity that are actually good, that we are called by God to fulfill, in favor of a "Just Jesus and me" mentality.


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## dicapr (Mar 15, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> I agree that some people just do the "outward motions" without cultivating interior holiness (sanctification), but the article posted condemned several aspects of Christianity, especially within Catholic Christianity.
> 
> "Mary doesn't save,"...umm, who said she did?
> "Baptism leaves you a sinner and has nothing to do with salvation"...even though Scripture demonstrates otherwise
> ...



I see your point.  However, I take those statements to say that going through those motions without a converted heart means nothing.  I think we can agree that church, baptism, doctrine are pillars of the faith.  However, if one lacks understanding and conversion going through the motions means nothing.  We need both faith and works.


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## Sharpened (Mar 15, 2012)

What is up with the "I hate religion, but love Jesus" movement?

*After studying the NT, I see that the church system is not what they practiced and others are taking note of this. Religion always turns the focus on self instead of the Kingdom of God:*

*I want to believe as I want.*
*Do what is best for you.*
*This is what I feel.*
*I find this beautiful and relevant.*
*See how nice, loving, peaceful I am?*
*I’m trying to be nice…*
*My religion (denomination) is the way. See how all those others are wrong?*
*All religions lead to God.*

  Christianity is a religion. There is nothing wrong with that. It is GOOD. It is the True religion. 

*Jesus criticized religion because it had extra, unnecessary rules, making the power of God’s words of no effect. He always referred to the Kingdom of God (Heaven) and being a part of that. The Kingdom  of God is not religion.*

  I think when people (who identify themselves as believers) bash religion, maybe they're just bashing institutionalized religion. But didn't Christ institute a Church?

*Jesus did not start an institution and neither did the Apostles. We are to be a Temple of little stones made without hands (man’s will or influence). The Holy Spirit is the mortar that holds us together.*

  I agree that being a member of the Church isn't an automatic pass to Heaven. Salvation = Justification + Sanctification.

  With that said, it is obvious that God's chosen vehicle or instrument to bring people to salvation is His Church.

*No, the chosen way is Christ through His Holy Spirit. We are the Body; He is the Head. The Body is nothing without the Head.*

  Matthew 16:17-19 Christ tells Peter (Cephas) that he is Cephas, and on this Cephas He will build His Church, and He will give him the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, and whatever Cephas binds or looses on earth is bound and loosed in Heaven. Binding and loosing is very significant here, because in Jewish law, binding and loosing means the authority to permit or forbid (in religious and moral law).

*This is when a study of the Greek—the original language of the NT (not Aramaic either)—is essential. The name Peter (Petros) means pebble, little rock, and broken piece of rock. The word rock (petra) is only used four times in the NT and one of these refers to Christ being the rock (1 Corinthians 10:4). Also, throughout the entire Bible both the words rock and stone (lithos in the Greek) symbolize God and His power over the Earth.*

*The deeper meaning of this passage is that Jesus was also talking to future generations (little stones held together by the Holy Spirit) until the end of the age when the Evangel had been completely spread. Peter himself strengthens this position in 1 Peter 2:4-10 *

  Christ would not have given us His Bride, the Church, through which the Gospel is preached, and God's laws are upheld and proclaimed, if there were no use for her in His plan of salvation.

*The Bride is for Him, a gift from Father to Son, at the end of the age. Right now, we are the Ekklesia, the Body of Christ. Let us not exalt our current position in the grand scheme of things.*

  The First Command God explicitly gives to mankind is to worship Him. Of course His people will worship Him in spirit and truth.

*If believers actually did serve Him in spirit and in truth, these current divisions would have never happened. He predicted these things would happen, so no one should be surprised.*

  St. Peter declares to the crowd astounded by his preaching: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."26 

The apostles and their collaborators offer Baptism to anyone who believed in Jesus: Jews, the God-fearing, pagans.27 

Always, Baptism is seen as connected with faith: "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household," St.  Paul declared to his jailer in Philippi. And the narrative continues, the jailer "was baptized at once, with all his family."28

*1227* According to the Apostle Paul, the believer enters through Baptism into communion with Christ's death, is buried with him, and rises with him: 

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.29 The baptized have "put on Christ."30 Through the Holy Spirit, Baptism is a bath that purifies, justifies, and sanctifies.31

26 _Acts_ 2:38.
27 Cf. _Acts_ 2:41; 8:12-13; 10:48; 16:15.
28 _Acts_ 16:31-33.
29 _Rom_ 6:3-4; cf. _Col_ 2:12.
30 _Gal_ 3:27.
31 CE _1 Cor_ 6:11; 12:13.

*There is a baptism many fail to mention and it is THE most important one: the baptism of the Holy Spirit (fire and spirit as John the Baptist mentioned). Water baptism is not enough (Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:26 and 33, Acts 1:5, Acts 2:4, Acts 11:15-17,* *Acts 19:1-6). That is what causes the change, the regeneration, the vital connection to the Father. *

*Are people making sure they have received this? I received this but I did not go to church for that to happen. I did the water one later so my sister would leave it alone (Acts 10:47), the first and last time I stepped into that particular place. My older child also has received the Spirit’s baptism (fascinating experience that was) but not water. Right now, the Lord is working on his prayer life and has not mentioned the water one at all.*

  Keeping the Sabbath is God's fourth commandment.

*Sabbath means rest—do nothing, do not go to worship either. Jesus took it to another level by teaching that being continuously in His will is rest from our own labors.*

  I agree she's a saint in Heaven praising God for her salvation, however she shares a unique relationship with Jesus Christ as His Mother. 

Luke 1:28 "Hail, full of grace...the Lord is with thee."

Luke 1:48 "Generation after generation shall call me blessed..."

In a sense, Mary is the first Christian. She accepted Christ the Savior, the promised Messiah in her heart and miraculously by the power of the Holy Spirit, in her womb. He took His human flesh from her, was raised and loved by her, and when many of His disciples fled the Crucifixion, she stood there at the Cross. 

Also, please be careful about separating Jesus' Divine Nature from His human nature. Jesus Christ is fully man AND fully God. Mary didn't just give birth to the "human nature" of Jesus--she gave birth to the God-Man. Jesus Christ is True Man and True God. His divinity was never lessened by becoming Incarnate, and His humanity was never lessened by possessing a Divine nature.

*No one is downplaying who Jesus is, but playing up Mary is just as bad. She would be horrified at the level of adoration given her which should go to Jesus alone. *

  Some of these lines are vague and can apply to many Christian denominations (and even Judaism), and some of them are targeted at Catholicism. I'm not sure of any Judeo-Christian faith that states that praying will justify you or save you. 

*“Come on up to the altar and accept Christ!” One does not accept Christ; He chooses who He wants!*

*“Say this Sinner’s Prayer and you will be saved.” Also, not biblical.*

Prayer is communion with God, and it's part of the spiritual exercise of the Christian.

*Other religions do this as well, so what sets the believer apart from the others? The fact that we are at war on the spiritual tip is a big one. Prayer is more than an exercise, but to grow and solidify our connection to Him and ask Him how each of us are to serve Him. Prayer also leads to us commanding the natural and supernatural by His name (power, authority).*

_Neither can knowledge or Doctrine, because if your right on everything and have not met the risen savior with a change of heart by a new nature its all for nothing. First comes grace then comes the true knowledge._

  Again, another vague sentence. Knowledge is important--in order to accept Christ, we must know about Him. In order to obey God's law, we must know it. In order to preach and teach others about the Gospel--we must know it. Doctrine is an explicitly defined belief, like the Holy Trinity. Doctrine is good because it helps us to know and understand the faith and God's truths. 

*What this person is talking about is intellectualism and self-righteousness, which gives man the glory, believing his mind and behavior are good enough for God, usually in comparison to others. This is why He prefers lesser vessels (the foolish, the humble, poor in spirit) to get the job done.*

  This allll day long! I really do think this is a trick from the devil, i really do. When i hear people say stuff like I am spiritual but not religious, I get skeptical. Why? because alot of times when I hear them out, it is just a justification of why they dont want to stop committing certain sins and fully surrender. Not all cases, but most.

*Surrender to whom? Religion or Christ? Too many hypocrites (actors) practicing religion and people get tired of it. Religion is not the answer or this would not be an issue. Religion has failed for the Evangel in full power is not being wielded as it should be. That is why the number of believers seeking the Kingdom outside of the status quo is increasing.*


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## Galadriel (Mar 15, 2012)

dicapr said:


> I see your point.  However, I take those statements to say that going through those motions without a converted heart means nothing.  I think we can agree that church, baptism, doctrine are pillars of the faith.  However, if one lacks understanding and conversion going through the motions means nothing.  We need both faith and works.



What took two pages to post, could've easily been said the way that you just said it (and I agree with you). 

The wording and tone of the article makes it seem as if these things in and of themselves are bad, or not true Christianity, or contrary to growing close to Christ.


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## Galadriel (Mar 15, 2012)

Sharpened said:


> *After studying the NT, I see that the church system is not what they practiced and others are taking note of this. Religion always turns the focus on self instead of the Kingdom of God:*



The Church is what they practiced because Our Lord establishes a Church and the Apostles lead it. The purpose of the Church is to be God's vehicle or instrument of salvation on Earth (we preach the Gospel, people hear the Gospel, are converted and baptized, the Church adminsiters the sacraments, the Church teaches and defends the moral and theological truths revealed in Scripture and taught by the Apostles).



Sharpened said:


> *I want to believe as I want.*
> *Do what is best for you.*
> *This is what I feel.*
> *I find this beautiful and relevant.*
> ...



That's not "religion," those are erroneous or superficial beliefs/statements.




Sharpened said:


> *Jesus criticized religion because it had extra, unnecessary rules, making the power of God’s words of no effect. *


No, He criticized hypocrisy (teaching/proclaiming one thing but living or doing to the contrary) and legalism (adherence to Mosaic Law for the sake of the Law and forgetting why God gave it to begin with), not religion.


Sharpened said:


> *He always referred to the Kingdom of God (Heaven) and being a part of that. The Kingdom  of God is not religion.*



I think you're taking a mindset/attitude you don't like ("Phariseeism", legalism, hypocrisy), and calling it "religion." 



Sharpened said:


> *Jesus did not start an institution and neither did the Apostles. *


Jesus gives Peter authority over His Church Matthew 16:17-19

Paul:  And from Miletus [Paul] sent to Ephesus and called the *elders*  of the church. When they had come, he said to them, " … Take heed to  yourselves and to all the flock, among whom the Holy Spirit has made you  *overseers*, to *shepherd* the Church of God. (Acts 20:17,18,28).​  Peter:
I exhort the *elders* who are among you … to *shepherd* the flock of God which is among you, *overseeing* them. (1 Pet. 5:1-2).​


Sharpened said:


> *We are to be a Temple of little stones made without hands (man’s will or influence). The Holy Spirit is the mortar that holds us together.*



The Bible says we are temples of the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit dwells in us by God's grace through baptism.




Sharpened said:


> *No, the chosen way is Christ through His Holy Spirit. We are the Body; He is the Head. The Body is nothing without the Head.*



Paul says salvation comes by hearing the Gospel, and the Gospel must be preached. The Church, the Body of Christ, is God's instrument of spreading the Gospel throughout the earth. Yes, Christ is the Head of the Church, but the Church is still His chosen instrument.




Sharpened said:


> *This is when a study of the Greek—the original language of the NT (not Aramaic either)—is essential. The name Peter (Petros) means pebble, little rock, and broken piece of rock. The word rock (petra) is only used four times in the NT and one of these refers to Christ being the rock (1 Corinthians 10:4). Also, throughout the entire Bible both the words rock and stone (lithos in the Greek) symbolize God and His power over the Earth.*



Christ spoke in Aramaic, that is why Peter is called Cephas. In Greek it would be Petros (and English, Peter).




Sharpened said:


> *The Bride is for Him, a gift from Father to Son, at the end of the age. Right now, we are the Ekklesia, the Body of Christ. Let us not exalt our current position in the grand scheme of things.*



This is not supported by Scripture. The Church is both the Body and Bride of Christ. We are not waiting to be given to Christ.




Sharpened said:


> *If believers actually did serve Him in spirit and in truth, these current divisions would have never happened. He predicted these things would happen, so no one should be surprised.*



Division happens because of sin. Christianity on Earth still struggles, and as humans we fail; however God's grace will see us through. It is God's will that we all be one Church. "One Lord, one faith, one baptism..."




Sharpened said:


> *There is a baptism many fail to mention and it is THE most important one: the baptism of the Holy Spirit (fire and spirit as John the Baptist mentioned). Water baptism is not enough (Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:26 and 33, Acts 1:5, Acts 2:4, Acts 11:15-17,* *Acts 19:1-6). That is what causes the change, the regeneration, the vital connection to the Father. *



Water baptism was done by John the Baptist. The baptism administered by the Apostles and the Bishops (Episkopos) and Priests (Presbyters) in the NT is of the water and the Holy Spirit.



Sharpened said:


> *Are people making sure they have received this? I received this but I did not go to church for that to happen. I did the water one later so my sister would leave it alone (Acts 10:47), the first and last time I stepped into that particular place. My older child also has received the Spirit’s baptism (fascinating experience that was) but not water. Right now, the Lord is working on his prayer life and has not mentioned the water one at all.*



So...are you saying being baptized (with water) is unnecessary?




Sharpened said:


> *No one is downplaying who Jesus is, but playing up Mary is just as bad. She would be horrified at the level of adoration given her which should go to Jesus alone. *



It is your (misguided) opinion that Mary is "adored." I would put forth that in an effort to downplay Mary (because of a lack of understanding of her position within Catholicism) that a person may inadvertently commit a theological error (that error being the denial that Jesus Christ possesses both fully human and fully divine natures which exist in a hypostatic union within His one Person).



Sharpened said:


> *“Come on up to the altar and accept Christ!” One does not accept Christ; He chooses who He wants!*



Are you saying we do not freely accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?



Sharpened said:


> *“Say this Sinner’s Prayer and you will be saved.” Also, not biblical.*



The sinner's prayer may not be in the Bible, but it is a pious expression of Biblical principles, and asks for Jesus' mercy and forgiveness. 


Sharpened said:


> *What this person is talking about is intellectualism and self-righteousness, which gives man the glory, believing his mind and behavior are good enough for God, usually in comparison to others. This is why He prefers lesser vessels (the foolish, the humble, poor in spirit) to get the job done.*



To know and understand what the Gospel is, why Jesus died for us, and the ability to examine and discern between true doctrines and false ones, right morality and theology and erroneous ones, is not "intellectualism" or "self-righteousness."


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## aribell (Mar 15, 2012)

I think the important thing is that people can see the difference between followers of Christ who come together to carry out the Lord's work--even in an organized fashion-- and a spiritual or religious institution.  I do not believe the Church is, or ever was intended to be institutionalized, no matter how organized it might be.  They're not the same.  And by institutionalized I mean that we have structures of Christianity and offices and bodies that can appear to completely fulfill their mission without one genuine convert to Christ--that move forward regardless of the leading and power of the Holy Spirit.  They are self-sustaining, self-promoting, and can survive on human effort alone.  Just like Hinduism exists without the power of the Holy Spirit, just like Islam exists without the Lordship of Christ, there is also a Christianity that is sustained by the efforts and devotion of those in the institution rather than sustained by Christ.  

Like Jesus told the Angel of the church at Sardis in Revelation, "You have a name that you are alive, but you are dead."  And in the Gospels, not all of the religious Jewish leaders were hypocrites; but they all were called to leave the externals of the law for the substance of Christ.  Religion is what is left when you take out genuine faith in Christ, but all the externals are still present.  Again, all we have to do is look at any other major religion--Islam, Hinduism, even Mormonism now--to see that you can have a very active and growing religious institution that is not filled with Christ.  There are Christian versions of the same thing.


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## fifi134 (Mar 15, 2012)

^ We are waiting to be given to Christ, and it is supported by Scripture in Revelation 19:6-8:

"And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the[d] Lord God Omnipotent reigns! *Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.* And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints."


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## aribell (Mar 15, 2012)

fifi134 said:


> ^ We are waiting to be given to Christ, and it is supported by Scripture in Revelation 19:6,7
> 
> "And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the[d] Lord God Omnipotent reigns! *Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.* And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints."



I don't understand what you are trying to say.


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## fifi134 (Mar 15, 2012)

nicola.kirwan said:


> I don't understand what you are trying to say.



nicola.kirwan I started forming this post before you posted . I was referring to Galadriel.


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## makeupgirl (Mar 15, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> What is up with the "I hate religion, but love Jesus" movement?
> 
> Christianity is a religion. There is nothing wrong with that. It is GOOD. It is the True religion.
> 
> ...


I actually received Christ as Lord and Savior when I didn't know anything about him.  I mean growing up we learned that Jesus died for our sins but I never knew why.  When I heard the gospel for the first time, I believe and received it right there.  I listened as the Holy Spirit spoke to my heart.  I didn't learn more about Jesus until I started my spiritual walk with him and I'm still growing.


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## makeupgirl (Mar 15, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> I'm not offended, please don't take my post as an attack. I'm aware that the post you shared is someone else's writing, so the "you" in my response should be taken as a "general you" and not "you" specifically  However, I do stand by my statements that there is a problem with the "I hate religion but love Jesus" mentality.
> 
> 
> I mean "you" in the general sense.  I'm sorry if you took it personally.
> ...


I don't think it passed judgment but more like breaking it down on what the difference between Religion and the Gospel.  Religion is not going to get anyone in heaven or a relationship with Christ.  But the gospel of Christ is what saves us when we believe and accept.  We make it personal when we confess that we are sinners and that we need Jesus in our lives to save us.  Remember that Jesus died for the sinner, not the saint.  There is a lot of folk out here in the world that think they are saved by religion but the don't have a relationship with Christ.


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## Galadriel (Mar 15, 2012)

nicola.kirwan said:


> I think the important thing is that people can see the difference between followers of Christ who come together to carry out the Lord's work--even in an organized fashion-- and a spiritual or religious institution.  I do not believe the Church is, or ever was intended to be institutionalized, no matter how organized it might be.  They're not the same.  And by institutionalized I mean that we have structures of Christianity and offices and bodies that can appear to completely fulfill their mission without one genuine convert to Christ--that move forward regardless of the leading and power of the Holy Spirit.  They are self-sustaining, self-promoting, and can survive on human effort alone.  Just like Hinduism exists without the power of the Holy Spirit, just like Islam exists without the Lordship of Christ, there is also a Christianity that is sustained by the efforts and devotion of those in the institution rather than sustained by Christ.



I understand and agree with your underlying concept that there are people who will say, "Yes, I'm a Christian," or "Yes, I attend such-and-such church," and that's as far as they go, with no real depth or commitment. I agree with that.

However, the article that was posted by OP is *not saying that*, and if it's trying to say that, it's saying it rather terribly.

It portrays baptism, the visible Church, prayer, etc. as things that are lacking in God's grace and lacking in importance when Scripture clearly teaches otherwise. It creates a false dichotomy between a Christian's interior life (aka "relationship with Christ") and the Church and Sacraments as if they are contrary to one another and not working together. It also confuses Justification with Sanctification.

Since the article also takes time to point out that "Mary doesn't save," it (wrongly) implies that Catholics believe Mary saves us, which further implies that if you are a Catholic then you don't have a real or true "relationship with Christ."


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## Galadriel (Mar 15, 2012)

Here is a better definition of religion: *Religion, broadly speaking, means the voluntary subjection of oneself to God. It exists in its highest perfection in heaven, where the angels and saints love, praise, and adore God, and live in absolute conformity to His holy will.* (Catholic Encyclopedia)


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## makeupgirl (Mar 15, 2012)

As I said before, I never intended to judge or offend anyone by the article.  I'm just sitting at my desk (I worked through my lunch break for Overtime)  trying to get some cases out of the way and sometimes I'll surf the web to take a mini- break and came upon this article and it was on my heart to share.  Not to start stuff (I'm already dealing with ending of a friendship) so extra drama was not the intent.  I personally don't know the Catholic faith because I didn't grow up learning it and ironically it wasn't touched that much in my Religion/Philosophy class.  (interesting) So I'm not downing Catholics or any other faiths. I don't know anyone on here personally but I do know that I love everyone and just love sharing the gospel and talking about the anything relating to Jesus is soothing and uplifting.  I cannot attend bible study because I work on the days my church has it.  So yes, I take advantage of coming here, rapture ready, or just general surfing to research, and study, and learning, as well as fellowship with others.  So if I did offend anyone, I do apologize.  Just be careful (and I'm sorry that my words are so close together, something is wrong with my netbook keyboard) because Satan is working harder because he knows his number is almost up.  I'll continue to keep everyone in my thoughts and prayers.  Love you all.


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## auparavant (Mar 15, 2012)

“Come on up to the altar and accept Christ!” One does not accept Christ; He chooses who He wants!



Just passing through for a tiny bit but didn't Christ die for the whole, entire world?  He doesn't pick and choose who will get salvation as He gave it for all mankind, even those who had passed away and were held in she'ol.  John 3:16 is essential and it can be read literally.


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## Galadriel (Mar 15, 2012)

fifi134 said:


> ^ We are waiting to be given to Christ, and it is supported by Scripture in Revelation 19:6-8:
> 
> "And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the[d] Lord God Omnipotent reigns! *Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.* And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints."



Eph 5:25-27 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved* the church* and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present *her *to himself as *a radiant church, without stain* or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 			 		

The Bride in Revelation is the glorified Church.


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## fifi134 (Mar 15, 2012)

auparavant said:


> “Come on up to the altar and accept Christ!” One does not accept Christ; He chooses who He wants!
> 
> 
> 
> Just passing through for a tiny bit but didn't Christ die for the whole, entire world?  He doesn't pick and choose who will get salvation as He gave it for all mankind, even those who had passed away and were held in she'ol.  John 3:16 is essential and it can be read literally.



Christ's death on the Cross is fully sufficient to save all men, but not everyone will be saved. And He did pick and choose who will get salvation.

Ephesians 1:3,4 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, *just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world*,"

John 3:16 furthermore says that "...*whosoever believeth in Him* shall not perish but have everlasting life. 

Salvation is offered to all, but not everyone will be saved. Those He has chosen will be saved. We cannot come to Christ on our own, He chooses us.

John 15:16: "You did not choose Me but I chose you.."

Also, Scripture doesn't teach that one has the option to be saved after death.


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## auparavant (Mar 15, 2012)

If christianity is not a religion.....

_Definition of RELIGION

1
a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion>
b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2
:*a personal  set* or institutionalized system of religious* attitudes, beliefs, and practices*
3
archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4
: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith_

Jesus had a virgin birth, He is the Messiah, He is the ultimate salvific sacrificial lamb, baptism as being born of the spirit, receiving the Holy Spirit, doing good works (following Him and his word), repenting of sin, we believe in the resurrection of the dead and heaven....etc. 

So, no matter how you look at it, it is a religion.  Every religion's adherents "believe" and have some kind of relationship to the respective set of beliefs and tenets of the faith.  How do we have a relationship with Christ?  By doing what He said to do...and that is the religion of christianity, pointed to up-post.


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## fifi134 (Mar 15, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> Eph 5:25-27 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved* the church* and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present *her *to himself as *a radiant church, without stain* or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
> 
> The Bride in Revelation is the glorified Church.



Galadriel Yes, the bride is the Church. I never said it wasn't. I was responding to the notion that we are not waiting to be given to Christ.

The marriage in Revelation speaks on the day when we will be united as one with Christ once and for all, just as a bride is united as one with her groom. We are not there yet, as this will not be completed until He returns.


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## auparavant (Mar 15, 2012)

fifi134 said:


> Christ's death on the Cross is fully sufficient to save all men, but not everyone will be saved. And He did pick and choose who will get salvation.
> 
> Ephesians 1:3,4 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, *just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world*,"
> 
> ...




The statement in parentheses wasn't mine so I'm responding to that one in particular.  He offers salvation to all.  He was speaking to his  disciples and was talking about a work He gave them to do.  So, G-d does choose us for vocation however, we all have free will AND are all presented with the gift of salvation.  We can choose it or reject it.  And as it applies to all mankind, G-d knows who heart is searching for HIm and living according to the truth that one has received in this life concerning the nature and obedience to G-d...of all religions and cultures, whether they are christian or not.  His mercy is beyond us.  If His mercy is great, why would He pick and choose who to give salvation to?  Works for us to do?  I could see that.  But 3:16 John, tells us that it is the whole world.  In fact, He's the Messiah of the whole world.  He is the fulfillment.  How horrible to only choose one and leave the other.  That curtain of separation has been ripped from East to West and all can fully enter into His salvation, even for those who never knew Him on this earth.  Again, truth is written on every man's heart and G-d's mercy is wide.  He knows who lived for Him even when they didn't have the completion of the truth about Him concerning His Son, Jesus.  Salvation is for all.  If not, we should all tremble in fear because, even though we may love Him and live for Him, we cannot know He will offer it to us...if that is the case.

When Jesus died, he went into gehenna to redeem.    He freed those who lived and died for G-d before He offered Himself.  That would be paradise.


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## fifi134 (Mar 15, 2012)

auparavant said:


> The statement in parentheses wasn't mine so I'm responding to that one in particular.  He offers salvation to all.  He was speaking to his  disciples and was talking about a work He gave them to do.  So, G-d does choose us for vocation however, we all have free will AND are all presented with the gift of salvation.  *We can choose it or reject it.*  And as it applies to all mankind, G-d knows who heart is searching for HIm and living according to the truth that one has received in this life concerning the nature and obedience to G-d...of all religions and cultures, whether they are christian or not.  His mercy is beyond us.  If His mercy is great, why would He pick and choose who to give salvation to?  Works for us to do?  I could see that.  But 3:16 John, tells us that it is the whole world.  In fact, He's the Messiah of the whole world.  He is the fulfillment.  *How horrible to only choose one and leave the other.*  That curtain of separation has been ripped from East to West and all can fully enter into His salvation, even for those who never knew Him on this earth.  Again, truth is written on every man's heart and G-d's mercy is wide.  He knows who lived for Him even when they didn't have the completion of the truth about Him concerning His Son, Jesus.  Salvation is for all.  If not, we should all tremble in fear because, even though we may love Him and live for Him, we cannot know He will offer it to us...if that is the case.



We cannot choose Christ. Our natural inclination is to deny a holy God. How can we choose a holy God when we are inherently evil ourselves?

John 6:44: *No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;*

It is not horrible for God to choose some and not others. All human beings deserve hell. It's actually *merciful* of Him to choose some to avoid His just punishment.


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## auparavant (Mar 15, 2012)

fifi134 said:


> We cannot choose Christ. Our natural inclination is to deny a holy God. How can we choose a holy God when we are inherently evil ourselves?
> 
> John 6:44: *No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;*
> 
> It is not horrible for God to choose some and not others. All human beings deserve hell. It's actually *merciful* of Him to choose some to avoid His just punishment.



I'm saying we have free will.  G-d never removed it from us.  We can choose death any time...just as we can choose life.  He offers salvation to every man...not just some men.  Why is John 3:16 obscure in this thread?  


"For God so loved the* world* _that he gave_ his one and only Son, that *whoever** believes in him* shall not perish but have eternal life."


He has always been speaking to us to draw us to Him.  Jesus is His last revelation.    All men, from Genesis to today.  He chooses you, me, the Hindu buffalo-herder in the countryside, the Wallstreet criminal, the....everyone.  He chooses us all.


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## fifi134 (Mar 15, 2012)

auparavant said:


> I'm saying we have free will.  G-d never removed it from us.  We can choose death any time...just as we can choose life.  He offers salvation to every man...not just some men.  Why is John 3:16 obscure in this thread?
> 
> 
> "For God so loved the* world* _that he gave_ his one and only Son, that *whoever** believes in him* shall not perish but have eternal life.



I never said we don't have free will. If we are choosing life, best believe it is the Spirit yielding us towards Him. It's His work in us that causes us to be saved.


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## auparavant (Mar 15, 2012)

fifi134 said:


> I never said we don't have free will. If we are choosing life, best believe it is the Spirit yielding us towards Him. It's His work in us that causes us to be saved.



That is with a person searching.  There is a spark of life in him, searching for G-d and He reveals Himself to said person.  There are no unsalvageable persons in this world.  His revelations are to all mankind.


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## fifi134 (Mar 15, 2012)

auparavant said:


> That is with a person searching.  There is a spark of life in him, searching for G-d and He reveals Himself to said person.  There are no unsalvageable persons in this world.  His revelations are to all mankind.



I think I see what you're saying, but I don't believe everyone will be saved.


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## Galadriel (Mar 15, 2012)

makeupgirl said:


> No, Christianity is not a religion.  It's about a relationship with Christ.  2nd Cor 5:17 "Therefore if any man _be_ in Christ, _he is_ a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."



Christianity is a religion (I do not subscribe to your definition of religion), and the 2 Cor. verse you quoted doesn't say a "relationship with Christ"--it says that we become new creatures in Christ. Christ sanctifies and renews us.




makeupgirl said:


> Religion is man's attempt to reach God, while Christianity is God's attmept to reach man through the gospel of Christ.



I don't define religion as man's attempt to reach God; this perhaps accounts for some of the confusion/disagreement.



makeupgirl said:


> Christ didn't give us his bride, the church.
> The  church aka the body of Christ aka the bride of Christ was given to him.   He is the church's bridegroom.



Christ takes His Bride (the Church) and sanctifies her and presents her to Himself. He is the Bridegroom.
The Church is also His Mystical Body (of which He is the Head).
The Church on Earth was established by Christ and He appointed Peter and the Apostles to lead, teach, preach, and defend.




makeupgirl said:


> But baptism does not save anyone.


 

Baptism is a sacrament--a visible sign through which God communicates invisible grace. The Holy Spirit gives us sanctifying grace through Baptism. This is what it means to be baptized by water and the Spirit. Baptism also makes one a member of the Church.




makeupgirl said:


> IF that were true,  then I was saved at age 7 when I had no idea what was going on. A lot  of people are saved but are not baptized.




The Church has always baptized children and infants along with adults. Just as circumcision (whether or child or adult convert) was a sign of being part of the Covenant, Baptism is the sign of the New Covenant. The Holy Spirit works through baptism to infuse sanctifying grace into our souls.




makeupgirl said:


> Those who come to a saving  knowledge say on their deathbed, or in hospitals, psych wards, prison,  etc  they may not have the chance to be baptized.


 

That's what we call Baptism of Desire. There are people who die before receiving formal baptism, but there is the baptism of desire, and also the baptism of blood. in the early Church, during the persecutions, many catechumens (converts studying and learning the Christian faith and preparing for baptism) were often murdered along with baptized members of the Church. The catechumens were seen as martrys, and "baptized by blood."



makeupgirl said:


> We're under grace, no longer under law.


 

Yes, we are no longer under Mosaic Law.




makeupgirl said:


> That  dispensation is OT.  We're still in the dispensation of grace.  So  following the law is obedience but not apart of his grace that saves us.


 

I think you may be confusing justification and sanctification.




makeupgirl said:


> The first  Christians was at the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came upon  them in Acts 2.




The followers of Jesus began being called "Christians" at that point, but Mary and the Apostles were followers of Christ before Pentecost.




makeupgirl said:


> God wants all the glory and  honor and does not want it to be shared with anyone else.  Mary was  chosen as a vessel to carry Jesus and to be his mother but she needed  him as much as everyone else needed him.





Sorry, if you've ever carried to term and given birth to a child, it's far more than being an incubator or "vessel." And you don't stop being a mother once the child is born. 

Who said she didn't need redemption? Who is making her equal with God?


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## aribell (Mar 15, 2012)

Galadriel said:
			
		

> It portrays baptism, the visible Church, prayer, etc. as things that are lacking in God's grace and lacking in importance when Scripture clearly teaches otherwise. It creates a false dichotomy between a Christian's interior life (aka "relationship with Christ") and the Church and Sacraments as if they are contrary to one another and not working together. It also confuses Justification with Sanctification.



I think that while the visible and the invisible are not inherently contrary to one another, that the visible should be merely the outward expression of what has occurred spiritually and invisibly, like a leprous hand being made whole only after an expression of faith.

We have the inward change and that inward change leads us to the outward actions, just like feeling lonely might lead me to call a friend.

The article may not be the best, but in general I think the sentiment that says "I hate religion but love Jesus" is attempting (perhaps badly-I didn't like the YT vid at all) to get at the fact that unless you are actually transformed by Christ, all of the outward stuff-even prayer-is meaningless.  Unless I truly believe and have known Christ, no Christian activity is going to draw me closer to Him.

Many people do look to Sunday attendance, prayers, charitable works, etc. as the aim and satisfaction of the Christian life.  Many are much more religious than Christlike or faithful.

The Church has always had a physical presence in the world, but also believe that that physical presence has morphed over time from a united, organic entity to multiple inorganic ones, with true believers scattered all over.

In some ways it ends up being a semantics argument because it's not about the words used, but the ideas expressed.


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## Galadriel (Mar 15, 2012)

fifi134 said:


> @Galadriel Yes, the bride is the Church. I never said it wasn't. I was responding to the notion that we are not waiting to be given to Christ.
> 
> The marriage in Revelation speaks on the day when we will be united as one with Christ once and for all, just as a bride is united as one with her groom. We are not there yet, as this will not be completed until He returns.



We are already His Bride, thus it makes no sense to wait to be His Bride. He's already married to the Church. 

Remember, the saints in heaven are also full members of the Church. The Church is universal--for all people, in all times and places. 

Revelation shows that the Church will undergo a final persecution and then triumph in the end (glorification) just as Christ underwent His death and resurrection.


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## Galadriel (Mar 15, 2012)

My criticism is with the article (I know you are not the author of the article, that you were just sharing it).





makeupgirl said:


> As I said before, I never intended to judge or offend anyone by the article.  I'm just sitting at my desk (I worked through my lunch break for Overtime)  trying to get some cases out of the way and sometimes I'll surf the web to take a mini- break and came upon this article and it was on my heart to share.  Not to start stuff (I'm already dealing with ending of a friendship) so extra drama was not the intent.  I personally don't know the Catholic faith because I didn't grow up learning it and ironically it wasn't touched that much in my Religion/Philosophy class.  (interesting) So I'm not downing Catholics or any other faiths. I don't know anyone on here personally but I do know that I love everyone and just love sharing the gospel and talking about the anything relating to Jesus is soothing and uplifting.  I cannot attend bible study because I work on the days my church has it.  So yes, I take advantage of coming here, rapture ready, or just general surfing to research, and study, and learning, as well as fellowship with others.  So if I did offend anyone, I do apologize.  Just be careful (and I'm sorry that my words are so close together, something is wrong with my netbook keyboard) because Satan is working harder because he knows his number is almost up.  I'll continue to keep everyone in my thoughts and prayers.  Love you all.


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## fifi134 (Mar 16, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> We are already His Bride, thus it makes no sense to wait to be His Bride. He's already married to the Church.
> 
> Remember, the saints in heaven are also full members of the Church. The Church is universal--for all people, in all times and places.
> 
> Revelation shows that the Church will undergo a final persecution and then triumph in the end (glorification) just as Christ underwent His death and resurrection.



We are not waiting to be His bride, we are waiting for the marriage to occur. That will not happen until He returns.

The triumph at the end of the Last Days marks when all believers will be united with Christ. Thus the marriage has not officially happened yet because His work on earth is not yet fully complete.


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 16, 2012)

You know what, some of you are doing the same thing in this thread that you said you did not want done to you in a catholic thread.  That is exactly what I am getting out of reading the responses.

The original poster posted something that she felt was on her heart from something she read she posted it, and she had every right to do it.  There were responses to what she said that felt that what she said wasn't fully correct as far as you were concerned....FROM A CATHOLIC POINT OF VIEW!  That's fine, but...don't make her out to feel as though she is wrong for posting it.  I happened to be blessed by what she wrote and if I had issue with something, I can pm her about it instead of doing what is being done in this thread.

At some point....there must be PEACE! SHALOM! in this forum.  I don't care how you may say that you are only giving your opinions and the rights to it, etc. but I see something different here...I see a stirring up that isn't of God and I'm not going to sit, read, and allow this to continue.

If it is not aligning up with what you believe....that's OK.  After this past week we should have learned that togetherness is what is needed...not a bickering back and forth.  It's not healthy for the Body of Christ and its not healthy for those who may be watching and may have an opportunity to come to Christ but won't because confusion is certainly present.

We must come together in this forum...this is a Christian Forum, not a religious forum.  Some may believe that Christianity is a religion and I don't.  So? What's wrong with that.  There are many things that we are not going to, let's say understand, about one another and what we believe.  That's OK.  We must learn to stop trying to fight each other with what we feel is right and just be.................a Christian!

Thank you and good night!

N&W


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## Galadriel (Mar 16, 2012)

nicola.kirwan said:


> I think that while the visible and the invisible are not inherently contrary to one another, that the visible should be merely the outward expression of what has occurred spiritually and invisibly, like a leprous hand being made whole only after an expression of faith.



I agree , and you've just explained what a sacrament is--a visible sign of an inward grace. 

However I tend to raise an eyebrow at denigrating the visible Church because: 

1) Christ founded the Church 
2) It's His instrument of salvation 
3) The Church is the keeper, teacher, interpreter, and protector of Scripture and Apostolic Tradition

By breaking away from the Church or viewing it as a glorified social gathering (not saying you are doing this), it denies the nature, role, and importance of the Church in God's plan of salvation, as well as opens up the door to false teachings and doctrines.


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## Galadriel (Mar 16, 2012)

fifi134 said:


> We are not waiting to be His bride, we are waiting for the marriage to occur. That will not happen until He returns.



He is already married to the Church. The Church is His bride (Ephesians 5:25). What the Church is waiting for is her glorification.



fifi134 said:


> The triumph at the end of the Last Days marks when all believers will be united with Christ. Thus the marriage has not officially happened yet because His work on earth is not yet fully complete.



Explain?


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## Galadriel (Mar 16, 2012)

It is certainly not my intention to attack or be negative toward OP. I already made it clear that my criticism is with certain things said in the article, which is why I quoted and addressed each part that I disagreed with and explained why. 





Nice & Wavy said:


> You know what, some of you are doing the same thing in this thread that you said you did not want done to you in a catholic thread.  That is exactly what I am getting out of reading the responses.
> 
> The original poster posted something that she felt was on her heart from something she read she posted it, and she had every right to do it.  There were responses to what she said that felt that what she said wasn't fully correct as far as you were concerned....FROM A CATHOLIC POINT OF VIEW!  That's fine, but...don't make her out to feel as though she is wrong for posting it.  I happened to be blessed by what she wrote and if I had issue with something, I can pm her about it instead of doing what is being done in this thread.
> 
> ...


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 16, 2012)

^^you may not have intentionally done it, but you did it nonetheless and that's why I have issue with it, regardless if its only from the article that you had issue with.  

When you said "What's up with this I hate religion but love Jesus" quote really showed that your intentions in this thread was not a good one.

You ladies said that you wanted to have a catholic forum where you could come together with what you believe without it being 'derailed'.  Well, I feel the same thing is being done in this thread and its uncalled for.


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## LucieLoo12 (Mar 16, 2012)

When I am say this, I am not trying to be offensive. But this is a FORUM. Things are going to be discussed. Why is it that when something is opposed in a thread it has to be labled as "attacking".  OP did not even write the article,she said she re posted. Our views or opinions was not directed to her personally,because we dont know her personally.  We was going by what the article said. It seems alot of times that if you dont agree with the OP point of view(not just in this thread but in alot of threads), that you are wrong. Why post something if you dont want to hear opinions on what is being posted? Should we just agree with everything that is being posted to "keep the peace"? It's not bickering back and forth...its called a discussion. Now if things get out line and people start name calling and things get heated then yes it needs to stop, but just because there is a disagreement that does not mean its an argument going.

We take things too personally. I've seen people say DIRECTLY insult someone,and no one says nothing. but when we oppose a mindset or way of thinking we are wrong? Thats why I like discussing things with lalea(she is not the only one) because she dont take things personally. She may disagree with you in one thread but in the next thread she isn't bringing up what when in one in the last thread. 

Maybe we need to have our threads titled " Please post if you agree with me, you dont agree dont post".

We should be able to discuss things freely without people think we jumping on them. I will give an example, yesturday in the Hip Hop thread me and LoveisYou didnt agree on the topic. Now Loveisyou has said some edifying posts before and I've agreed with her on many topics, but on this topic we didnt agree. Does this mean I am going to hold it against her or not like her because we didnt agree? Of course not. Because we are entitled to our own opinions. Because someone may feel that a poster's post mean something doesn't mean that assumption is true. My post get misunderstood all the time. Sometimes people read it in the wrong tone.

But come on ladies. Let's not make this forum where people are scared to state how they feel. This goes both ways. 

If the poster said it wasn't her intention, then say "Amen" and move on. But don't say well it was your intention.Thats how mess gets started.You can't know what is the real intentions of someone's heart is. Only God knows that.

By know means am I trying to start anything with this post. But we have to remember this is a forum. I think that since alot of things have been going on, alot of people are "sensitive" and any sign of disagreement we want to shut everything down.  But that is all I am done.


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## sidney (Mar 16, 2012)

I agree we should be able to reason together but if it turns into attack and vindication it is no longer fruitful.  All things by his spirit.


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## Sharpened (Mar 16, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> The Church is what they practiced because Our Lord establishes a Church and the Apostles lead it. The purpose of the Church is to be God's vehicle or instrument of salvation on Earth (we preach the Gospel, people hear the Gospel, are converted and baptized, the Church adminsiters the sacraments, the Church teaches and defends the moral and theological truths revealed in Scripture and taught by the Apostles).


 
  What is being practiced today is not what the first ekklesia did in the NT. I am not going to go into the details; anyone can check it out for themselves. Every group I see has a little bit right and a whole lot wrong, but few are willing to deal with it. Formulaic routines (like going to church, which is a misnomer in light of what Scripture says) do not save; the baptism of the Holy Spirit and His direct guidance do. The Lord has His reasons for keeping me out of what people call church and religion. 



> That's not "religion," those are erroneous or superficial beliefs/statements.


     And yet, they are said and implied often in this forum and off the net by believers. You want a separate forum to cater to your needs; Jesus told us to endure. I do.



> No, He criticized hypocrisy (teaching/proclaiming one thing but living or doing to the contrary) and legalism (adherence to Mosaic Law for the sake of the Law and forgetting why God gave it to begin with), not religion.


 *Mark 7*
  1Now when the Pharisees gathered to Him, with some of the scribes who had come from Jerusalem, 2they saw that some of His disciples ate with hands that were defiled, that is, unwashed. 3(For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands, holding to the tradition of the elders, 4and when they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions that they observe, such as the washing of cups and pots and copper vessels and dining couches.) 5And the Pharisees and the scribes asked Him, “Why do your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with defiled hands?” 6And He said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written,

  “‘This people honors Me with their lips,
  but their heart is far from Me;
  7 *in vain do they worship Me,*
*teaching as doctrines the commandments of men*.’

  8*You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men*.”

  9And He said to them, “*You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!* 10For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ 11But you say, ‘If a man tells his father or his mother, “Whatever you would have gained from me is Corban”’ (that is, given to God)— 12then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother, 13*thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.”*

  Matthew 15:1-9 contains a shorter version of this.



> I think you're taking a mindset/attitude you don't like ("Phariseeism", legalism, hypocrisy), and calling it "religion."


 *Luke 17:20-21* Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

  No, our focus should be on the Kingdom of Heaven. It has nothing to do with like or dislike, simply focus.



> Jesus gives Peter authority over His Church Matthew 16:17-19
> 
> Paul:And from Miletus [Paul] sent to Ephesus and called the *elders*  of the church. When they had come, he said to them, " … Take heed to  yourselves and to all the flock, among whom the Holy Spirit has made you  *overseers*, to *shepherd* the Church of God. (Acts 20:17,18,28).​Peter:I exhort the *elders* who are among you … to *shepherd* the flock of God which is among you, *overseeing* them. (1 Pet. 5:1-2).​


 Jesus gave authority over His Body to the Holy Spirit (the Rock or power of God in Spirit), not man. The Apostles were vessels of honor for the Holy Spirit to operate through. Notice, they did not do anything until the Holy Spirit came upon them. Because people fail to recognize this, we have division and people trying to share power with God, unintentional or otherwise. Paul ranted about this issue in 1 Corinthians 1:11



> The Bible says we are temples of the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit dwells in us by God's grace through baptism.


     This does not contradict what I said. Is the Holy Spirit what ties believers together or not?


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## Sharpened (Mar 16, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> Paul says salvation comes by hearing the Gospel, and the Gospel must be preached. The Church, the Body of Christ, is God's instrument of spreading the Gospel throughout the earth. Yes, Christ is the Head of the Church, but the Church is still His chosen instrument.


 Without the Holy Spirit’s power, the Evangel has no saving effect. The Holy Spirit is greater than the Body, for without Him, there would be no Body.



> Christ spoke in Aramaic, that is why Peter is called Cephas. In Greek it would be Petros (and English, Peter).


 By saying Peter was the foundation, you are saying Paul was wrong in calling Jesus the Rock, Jesus calling Himself the chief cornerstone, and canceling centuries of symbolism. If that is the case, then we all are the Rock, for we are in Christ and Christ in us. In a roundabout way, you may have proven your point about the Ekklesia, but it is not about religion but the Kingdom. 

*1 Peter 2*
1Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind. 2Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, 3now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.

4As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— 5*you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. *6For in Scripture it says:

“See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame.”

7Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

“The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone,”
8and,

“A stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.”

They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.



> This is not supported by Scripture. The Church is both the Body and Bride of Christ. We are not waiting to be given to Christ.


 You forget the symbolism of the wedding feast.

*2 Corinthians 11:2* For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.

*Revelation 19:7-8* Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

The people who are perfect in God’s eyes become the Bride. Many are called (the Ekklesia, the Body) but few are chosen (the Elect, the Bride). If the Body is imperfect, how is that a pure virgin Bride? Too many weeds and chaff to burn up still.



> Division happens because of sin. Christianity on Earth still struggles, and as humans we fail; however God's grace will see us through. It is God's will that we all be one Church. "One Lord, one faith, one baptism..."


 What you have said does not contradict what I said. The Lord is the one who predicted division would happen; He is sovereign and knows the beginning from the end. Very few have ever bothered to ask Him what He wanted.



> Water baptism was done by John the Baptist. The baptism administered by the Apostles and the Bishops (Episkopos) and Priests (Presbyters) in the NT is of the water and the Holy Spirit.


 Baptism of water and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit are NOT the same thing; the latter being more important than the former and there no others are mentioned. Also, the thief on the cross did not get baptized.

This does not contradict what I said. The Greek word for _bishop_ (which also means _elder, shepherd, pastor, guardian, overseer_) is fine, but _presbyter_ (_old man, elder_) does not mean _priest_ (_hiereus _in the Greek) and they had no Levitical priests. By His shed blood, we are all priests under the King and High Priest Yeshua (1 Peter 2:9, Revelation 1:6, Revelation 5:10).



> So...are you saying being baptized (with water) is unnecessary?


 I said the baptism of the Holy Spirit is the most important. Not every will receive it during a water baptism and few are making sure they have.



> It is your (misguided) opinion that Mary is "adored." I would put forth that in an effort to downplay Mary (because of a lack of understanding of her position within Catholicism) that a person may inadvertently commit a theological error (that error being the denial that Jesus Christ possesses both fully human and fully divine natures which exist in a hypostatic union within His one Person).


 Watching people kneeling before and kissing the feet of a Mary statue is not beyond appreciation? Where is this practiced in the Bible? Nowhere, in fact it is spoken against. 

No believer I have seen in this forum has yet to downgrade Who Christ was, so that was unnecessary.

I do not care about theological errors, only His truth as He teaches me.



> Are you saying we do not freely accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?


 No, I am saying that He chooses. Many are called but few are chosen as He said, not me.



> The sinner's prayer may not be in the Bible, but it is a pious expression of Biblical principles, and asks for Jesus' mercy and forgiveness.


 The problem that the person in the article addresses is the belief that is all one has to do—say a prayer and you are saved. It has little to do with piety, but being lax to continue on the path towards Him, to learn about and perform one’s job in the Kingdom.



> To know and understand what the Gospel is, why Jesus died for us, and the ability to examine and discern between true doctrines and false ones, right morality and theology and erroneous ones, is not "intellectualism" or "self-righteousness."


 You missed the point of the article and my reply. *shrug*


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 16, 2012)

Well, thank you Alicialynn....you could have addressed me by my screenname with this post because I know it is directed at me.  But, I see now that no matter what is said in this forum, there will always be discord.

I'm done here....you keep on keeping on defending both sides.

ETA: @ the quoted, really Alicia...really?  That is an interesting quote to say the least.



Alicialynn86 said:


> When I am say this, I am not trying to be offensive. But this is a FORUM. Things are going to be discussed. Why is it that when something is opposed in a thread it has to be labled as "attacking".  OP did not even write the article,she said she re posted. Our views or opinions was not directed to her personally,because we dont know her personally.  We was going by what the article said. It seems alot of times that if you dont agree with the OP point of view(not just in this thread but in alot of threads), that you are wrong. Why post something if you dont want to hear opinions on what is being posted? Should we just agree with everything that is being posted to "keep the peace"? It's not bickering back and forth...its called a discussion. Now if things get out line and people start name calling and things get heated then yes it needs to stop, but just because there is a disagreement that does not mean its an argument going.
> 
> We take things too personally. I've seen people say DIRECTLY insult someone,and no one says nothing. but when we oppose a mindset or way of thinking we are wrong? *
> 
> ...


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## Galadriel (Mar 16, 2012)

Nice & Wavy said:


> ^^you may not have intentionally done it, but you did it nonetheless and that's why I have issue with it, regardless if its only from the article that you had issue with.
> 
> When you said "What's up with this I hate religion but love Jesus" quote really showed that your intentions in this thread was not a good one.
> 
> You ladies said that you wanted to have a catholic forum where you could come together with what you believe without it being 'derailed'.  Well, I feel the same thing is being done in this thread and its uncalled for.




Several lines from the post (esp. page 2) sound like they came from the YouTube video. They share the same sentiments--which I disagree with.


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 16, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> Several lines from the post (esp. page 2) sound like they came from the YouTube video. They share the same sentiments--which I disagree with.


It's cool...carry on!


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## LucieLoo12 (Mar 16, 2012)

@Nice & Wavy

Yes your post may have initiated my response, but it was directed to more than just you. I see it done by many numerous posters.

Yes I am defending both sides because its always two sides to the situation.

1). People feeling like their topic can't be disagreed with 
2). People feeling like they can't post/respond to  their topic because of fear of what people may say or getting accused of sowing disccord

I am for discussing issues. I disagree alot of times. But I have never attacked someone personally on here. Only there opinion of a topic has been discussed.

I do discussed my beliefs on here but I never made a poster feel like they couldn't say what they wanted to. But I will say what I have to.And its interesting because I said I like discussing with a particular poster and I clearly said she was not the only one? Because I used her as an example of someone that I could discuss things with and she not take it personally? if anything that was a compliment to her.Not to bash anyone else.

I said this so we can all examine ourselves on here. We say we want unity but we stay nitpicking and trying to find something wrong with people's post. (in general)


If you are offended I do aplogize, for that was not my intention
Im done with this topic...



Nice & Wavy said:


> Well, thank you Alicialynn....you could have addressed me by my screenname with this post because I know it is directed at me. But, I see now that no matter what is said in this forum, there will always be discord.
> 
> I'm done here....you keep on keeping on defending both sides.
> ETA: @ the quoted, really Alicia...really? That is an interesting quote to say the least.


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## Nice & Wavy (Mar 16, 2012)

Alicialynn,

Carry on in the forum my dear...carry on!

Take care!


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## Galadriel (Mar 16, 2012)

Sharpened said:


> What is being practiced today is not what the first ekklesia did in the NT. I am not going to go into the details;



Yes it is, and so far you've not offered any evidence to back up your claim, and now you say "I'm not going into details."



Sharpened said:


> anyone can check it out for themselves. Every group I see has a little bit right and a whole lot wrong, but few are willing to deal with it. Formulaic routines (like going to church, which is a misnomer in light of what Scripture says)




Church is not a misnomer.



Sharpened said:


> the baptism of the Holy Spirit and His direct guidance do [save].




The baptism of the Holy Spirit occurred at Pentecost in the book of Acts. You say you are directed by the Holy Spirit in your beliefs, but so do people who claim that Jesus Christ isn't God, or that there is no Trinity, or no such thing as free will. 

You claim your subjective interpretation of Scriptures is the Holy Spirit teaching you or guiding you.




Sharpened said:


> The Lord has His reasons for keeping me out of what people call church and religion.




Why would God want someone outside of or lead someone away from His Church?





Sharpened said:


> *Mark 7*
> 1Now when the Pharisees gathered to Him, with some of the scribes who had come from Jerusalem, 2they saw that some of His disciples ate with hands that were defiled, that is, unwashed. 3(For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands, holding to the tradition of the elders, 4and when they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions that they observe, such as the washing of cups and pots and copper vessels and dining couches.) 5And the Pharisees and the scribes asked Him, “Why do your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with defiled hands?” 6And He said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written,
> 
> “‘This people honors Me with their lips,
> ...




  This does not prove your position. This only condemns hypocrisy, specifically the hypocrisy of the Pharisees and scribes who did things like fasting in public to gain sympathy or praise, and not because they were repentant; they judged harshly other Jews but then failed to live up to the very standard by which they judged (or even lived in opposite of it). This is not a condemnation of religion or tradition--this is a condemnation of hypocrisy.



Sharpened said:


> *Luke 17:20-21* Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”
> 
> 
> No, our focus should be on the Kingdom of Heaven. It has nothing to do with like or dislike, simply focus.




The Pharisees were looking for the Messiah who would overthrow the Roman Empire's rule and establish an earthly kingdom from Jerusalem. Jesus told them they were mistaken, because He is the Messiah and the Kingdom of God had arrived and was among them.



Sharpened said:


> Jesus gave authority over His Body to the Holy Spirit (the Rock or power of God in Spirit), not man.




This contradicts Scripture. Matthew 16:17-19 says Christ gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom, and the authority to permit or forbid moral and religious beliefs/practices.



Sharpened said:


> The Apostles were vessels of honor for the Holy Spirit to operate through.




I believe the Apostles were indwelt by the Holy Spirit and cooperated with the Holy Spirit's graces, but the Apostles (especially Peter) were given a specific task and authority in regards to the Church. They passed this authority and leadership to their Bishops (Episkopos) and Priests (Presbyters).



Sharpened said:


> Notice, they did not do anything until the Holy Spirit came upon them.


 

The Apostles were following Christ and baptizing even during Christ's ministry. In fact, John the Baptists's disciples pointed this out (Gospel of John). They obviously didn't go out preaching Christ rose from the dead until He had actually died and rose from the dead. 



Sharpened said:


> Because people fail to recognize this, we have division and people trying to share power with God, unintentional or otherwise. Paul ranted about this issue in 1 Corinthians 1:11




I think we have division because of people saying the Holy Spirit is directly telling them to believe their own personal interpretations of Scripture.


----------



## divya (Mar 16, 2012)

I would like to respectfully disagree based on the Scriptures. How does the Bible define religion or rather, true religion?

*James 1:27* KJV - Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Therefore, true religion and the gospel are completely intertwined.


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## makeupgirl (Mar 16, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> Several lines from the post (esp. page 2) sound like they came from the YouTube video. They share the same sentiments--which I disagree with.


 
What youtube video?  Could it be that the original author is speaking what is against all man-made religions that you disagree with?  I read the entire article before posting and it mentioned nothing in the article about Catholicism, even though Catholicism is also a man-made religion because it's NOTHING in the bible that states that we should EVER honor, worship, or glorify Mary.  (I've been trying not to say that because I know there are a lot of catholics in this thread but it's true, despite my ignorance about catholicism, it's not Christianity, it's religion)  Yes, she was Jesus' mother and that's her relationship with him and yes I do believe that she is saved by her belief especially knowing that she gave birth and was told before hand that she would be the mother of the promised coming Messiah.  However, Jesus said he was the only way to the Father, he is the alpha and omega, the bright and morning star.  If he is the author and finisher of our faith, in that is where it should begin and end.  In Christ alone, our hope is found. Not Mary, Buddha, Papa Smuff, Zordon, or anyone else. 

My mom told me that people are going to believe what they want regardless of whether or not the truth is given.  I'm beginning to see this for myself.  God knew it all along.  His word will always stand and come to pass.  His will be done.  I surrender all to him because I believe firmly in his word, the infalliable word of the almighty living risen God my Savior.  I'll continue to pray for everyone but I will not post with an argumentive spirit but I also will not compromise what the bible says about the gospel to make anyone feel good and to support their idea of how to reach God, especially when he tells us what we have to do.  

Im sorry if I may have offended someone with my post but if it's one thing I've learned with my walk with the Lord, the truth is always going to offend someone because it's not something they want to here but nevertheless I apologize. 

So, thine will be done Father God in the name of Jesus, I pray that your gospel will continue to be taught in truth, full and free.  Thank you Father for the free gift of salvation.  I come before your throne asking for forgiveness if I have offended anyone, or done something that was against your word and for taking you for granted.  Thank you for the blood of Jesus that cleanses us from all unrighteousness, when we confess our sins to you.  Thank you Jesus, for your death, burial, and resurrection and for sitting at the right hand of the Father interceeding for us your children.  Thank you that your will be done.  In Jesus name by the power of the Holy Spirit, Amen.


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## CoilyFields (Mar 16, 2012)

divya said:


> I would like to respectfully disagree based on the Scriptures. How does the Bible define religion or rather, true religion?
> 
> *James 1:27 KJV - Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.*
> 
> Therefore, true religion and the gospel are completely intertwined.


 
Girl I dont even know who you're disagreeing with but Ive been waiting to see if anyone would post this scripture!!!!

1. God shows us what true and pure religion would produce. But we must not confuse the fruit with the cause. An inner change (accepting Christ) is what causes us to bear good fruit. Not the church, doctrines, traditions etc...those are erected by God as necessary in helping cultivate our fruit.

2. The fact that pure and undefiled are there in the scripture means that people can, in fact, make religion something it should not be (Jesus emphasized this with the Pharisees). 

3. As Christians I think we have to be careful because there is a movement against religion and for being "spiritual" and though we may know what we mean when we talk about defiled religion...the world only sees it as one big conglomerate. Kinda like...even though I know our AA culture has some serious issues...I will not bash them to a European American...because I know they *may* put them down with the intent to obliterate...while I may point out flaws with the intent to find solutions.

4. As for the disagreements... makeupgirl posted something that she found helpful...not everyone agreed with the content of that article...nothing wrong with that...but if offense rises lets ackowledge it, forgive and move on, all parties. (Thanks to the ladies who responded to me thread!)


----------



## Galadriel (Mar 16, 2012)

Sharpened said:


> Without the Holy Spirit’s power, the Evangel has no saving effect. The Holy Spirit is greater than the Body, for without Him, there would be no Body.




The Body is the Body of Christ. While the Holy Spirit dispenses graces to the Body of Christ, He does not take or replace the role of the Church, or of Apostolic authority.



Sharpened said:


> By saying Peter was the foundation, you are saying Paul was wrong in calling Jesus the Rock, Jesus calling Himself the chief cornerstone, and canceling centuries of symbolism.




By saying Cephas (Peter) was the Cephas, and upon that Cephas Christ built His Church, I am merely quoting Christ's own words in the Gospel of Matthew.

I never said Christ was not our cornerstone, I simply quoted Matthew 16:17-19 to demonstrate that:

1. Christ founded a Church, a visible institution on Earth
2. Peter the Apostle was given the Keys to the Church, and the authority to permit or forbid beliefs and practices (this is what "bind and loose" mean)
3. Christ said that the gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church, which means Christ promises His protection of the Church always



Sharpened said:


> If that is the case, then we all are the Rock, for we are in Christ and Christ in us.




This contradicts Scripture. Nowhere does Christ states, implies, or gives the authority given to Peter to anyone else.




Sharpened said:


> The people who are perfect in God’s eyes become the Bride.




Again, this contradicts Scripture. The Bride of Christ is the Church. If you are a member of the Church, you are part of the Bride of Christ. You don't have to "wait to become the Bride."



Sharpened said:


> Many are called (the Ekklesia, the Body) but few are chosen (the Elect, the Bride).




Are you saying there is a "church" within the Church? Are you saying a person must go through some second type of initiation or step in order to be considered part of the Bride of Christ? 



Sharpened said:


> If the Body is imperfect, how is that a pure virgin Bride? Too many weeds and chaff to burn up still.




The Church is holy, because her Spouse (Christ) is Holy. The Holy Spirit dispenses graces and works through her to bring about the sanctification of her individual members, the most perfect and holy of course being the Church members in Heaven. The individual imperfections of Church members here on Earth does not mean the Bride of Christ is not holy and pure, but our sanctification is a process.





Sharpened said:


> Baptism of water and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit are NOT the same thing; the latter being more important than the former and there no others are mentioned.




Baptism of water = what John the Baptist did

Baptism of water and the Spirit = what the Church does



Sharpened said:


> Also, the thief on the cross did not get baptized.



Baptism of Desire



Sharpened said:


> This does not contradict what I said. The Greek word for _bishop_ (which also means _elder, shepherd, pastor, guardian, overseer_) is fine,




Yet clearly you deny the meaning and purpose of a Bishop. If a Bishop is a shepherd, pastor, guardian, what is he guarding? He is guarding the flock and the teachings given him by the Apostles (Scripture + Apostolic Tradition).

However if individual members feel the Holy Spirit is directly leading them, then this makes a Bishop (in their view) superfluous.



Sharpened said:


> but _presbyter_ (_old man, elder_) does not mean _priest_ (_hiereus _in the Greek) and they had no Levitical priests.




Priest is the English word for presbyter. I said nothing about OT Levitical priests. The Presbyters (whom we call priests in English) worked alongside the Bishops in the early Church.  When Bishops had charge of entire areas or communities, the presbyter would minister to individual communities as a direct representative of the Bishop.




Sharpened said:


> Watching people kneeling before and kissing the feet of a Mary statue is not beyond appreciation?




If you don't understand it, and if you're prejudiced against it, I can see why a person may come to the conclusion you have. While we do honor Mary as a great saint and the Mother of God, we do not believe she is divine or to be adored.



Sharpened said:


> Where is this practiced in the Bible? Nowhere, in fact it is spoken against.


 

God is not against statues. He commands Moses to make a bronze serpent through which He worked a miracle of healing for the Israelites. Also, the Ark of the Covenant (by God's command) was adorned with statues of angels.



Sharpened said:


> No believer I have seen in this forum has yet to downgrade Who Christ was, so that was unnecessary.




I didn't say anyone in this forum did, but the article committed a theological error by saying "Mary was just the mother of Jesus' humanity/human nature."




Sharpened said:


> I do not care about theological errors, only His truth as He teaches me.




Apparently you do care about theological errors if you are taking the time to debate my opposing views.




Sharpened said:


> The problem that the person in the article addresses is the belief that is all one has to do—say a prayer and you are saved. It has little to do with piety, but being lax to continue on the path towards Him, to learn about and perform one’s job in the Kingdom.




Who are you to judge that a person saying the Sinner's Prayer with sincerity doesn't have true conversion and doesn't receive God's grace? While the Sinner's Prayer is not a Catholic prayer, I think it is a good prayer and many have used it to express to Christ what is in their hearts.

it's almost as if you're creating a two-tier system of believers where a person is spiritually inferior or not saved unless they have experienced your (personal interpretation of) "baptism of the Holy Spirit."



Sharpened said:


> You missed the point of the article and my reply. *shrug*




I understand it perfectly. I just happen to disagree.


----------



## Galadriel (Mar 16, 2012)

divya said:


> I would like to respectfully disagree based on the Scriptures. How does the Bible define religion or rather, true religion?
> 
> *James 1:27* KJV - Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
> 
> Therefore, true religion and the gospel are completely intertwined.



Thank you for pulling that up, divya .


----------



## Galadriel (Mar 16, 2012)

makeupgirl said:


> What youtube video?



This one: Why I hate religion but love Jesus

 Also check out this priest's response: Why I love religion and love Jesus




makeupgirl said:


> Could it be that the original author is speaking what is against all man-made religions that you disagree with?  I read the entire article before posting and it mentioned nothing in the article about Catholicism,



The part that spoke about Mary was obviously directed toward Catholicism (and Eastern Orthodox, who also honors Mary).



makeupgirl said:


> even though Catholicism is also a man-made religion because it's NOTHING in the bible that states that we should EVER honor, worship, or glorify Mary.  (I've been trying not to say that because I know there are a lot of catholics in this thread but it's true, despite my ignorance about catholicism, it's not Christianity, it's religion)



Hmm, Catholicism isn't Christianity. I'd be happy to address this in a separate thread.



makeupgirl said:


> I surrender all to him because I believe firmly in his word, the infalliable word of the almighty living risen God my Savior.



I believe the Bible is infallible as well. How do you know the way that you are interpreting certain Scripture is true or correct?

And I ask this not in a snarky manner, but because there are so many erroneous teachings that have come from an individual saying "I rely on Scirpture alone, and this is what the Holy Spirit is guiding me to see."


----------



## Rainbow Dash (Mar 16, 2012)

Good points but we must not forget the most important part of our walk with God and that is to abide in Christ. It does not matter how religous and holy we appear. 

There are religious leaders and people who are not connected to God but they have the appearance of godliness. God has rejected their works. Read about the seven churchs in Revelation.

Reminds me of Saul in the Old Testament. Saul was still King even though he was rejected by God. God had already stripped him of the Kingdom but in the natural he was still King. 

*Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.* John 15:4

Think about Matthew 7:22-24

They must have had the appearance of being godly or they thought they were okay but they were rejected. They did not abide in the Vine. Which is Christ.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ 

These are just my thoughts. 


*Jesus said " Let no man deceive you.."  We as individuals have to become like the bereans. Study and show yourself approved unto God. *


Christ all the way!! We are not to rely on our own ways, vices, traditions, organizations, pastors, leaders, but Christ. They can be tools but they are NOT our source.


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## auparavant (Mar 16, 2012)

"you catholics"


 I hope my questions on salvation and who receives (non-predestination as are most protestants) it are not construed as "pushing."  I fail to see how christianity is not a religion if one compares the basic definition of what that is.  I have not pushed anyone to my side of the christian fence at all nor have I derailed this thread.


----------



## Galadriel (Mar 16, 2012)

CoilyFields said:


> Girl I dont even know who you're disagreeing with but Ive been waiting to see if anyone would post this scripture!!!!



Why wait??? You should've posted it 



CoilyFields said:


> 1. God shows us what true and pure religion would produce. But we must not confuse the fruit with the cause. An inner change (accepting Christ) is what causes us to bear good fruit. Not the church, doctrines, traditions etc...those are erected by God as necessary in helping cultivate our fruit.



I agree that our actions reveal what's in our hearts, and so those who are converted, who are cooperating with God's grace, will obviously live holy lives . The Church, it doctrines and traditions are Christ's means of converting us, giving us grace, and knowing true beliefs from false ones.



CoilyFields said:


> 2. The fact that pure and undefiled are there in the scripture means that people can, in fact, make religion something it should not be (Jesus emphasized this with the Pharisees).



I agree with your statement. The disagreement I had with the article was that it suggested that the *mere existence of* a Church, doctrine, etc. is evidence of false/defiled religion, or that they are synonymous with false religion.



CoilyFields said:


> 3. As Christians I think we have to be careful because there is a movement against religion and for being "spiritual" and though we may know what we mean when we talk about defiled religion...the world only sees it as one big conglomerate. Kinda like...even though I know our AA culture has some serious issues...I will not bash them to a European American...because I know they *may* put them down with the intent to obliterate...while I may point out flaws with the intent to find solutions.



I've come across people IRL who have made the same claim about "not being religious, but spiritual."


----------



## Shimmie (Mar 16, 2012)

Nice & Wavy said:


> You know what, some of you are doing the same thing in this thread that you said you did not want done to you in a catholic thread.  That is exactly what I am getting out of reading the responses.
> 
> The original poster posted something that she felt was on her heart from something she read she posted it, and she had every right to do it.  There were responses to what she said that felt that what she said wasn't fully correct as far as you were concerned....FROM A CATHOLIC POINT OF VIEW!  That's fine, but...don't make her out to feel as though she is wrong for posting it.  I happened to be blessed by what she wrote and if I had issue with something, I can pm her about it instead of doing what is being done in this thread.
> 
> ...



I'm just reading this thread and I totally agree with you Nice & Wavy.  As soon as I started reading I 'saw' derailment. 

*To those opposing this thread:  *

Did I not ask that the Catholic thread not be derailed by non-Catholics?  So why is this one any different?      

So why is this thread being derailed?   What's the point?   

Bottomline, no matter what 'religion' one has it's not a theory that 'you' created, but one that you've chosen to believe.    If God doesn't own it, neither should anyone, so stop the maddness.   None of us are owned, bought nor paid for by a denomination.   The Blood of Jesus isn't there.  

All of this is reactionary and it's very telling.   

Just go to your corners and be still !


----------



## auparavant (Mar 16, 2012)

Asking about whether salvation is offered to all men ... I keep seeing "you" (pl.) and how that relates to me, I dunno because I have not derailed anybody.  Please stop lumping folks or talking in "you people-isms."  There's all manner of hypocrisy up in this thread.   Stop it or take it outside!  All of youz.  And that isn't you people-ism, that's to all of youz in Christ.  Knock it off!


----------



## CoilyFields (Mar 16, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> Why wait??? You should've posted it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
We are in complete agreement!   It seems as though several of us took the article to mean different things. Its amazing how we filter things through our own experiences/knowledge.


----------



## makeupgirl (Mar 16, 2012)

auparavant said:


> Asking about whether salvation is offered to all men ... I keep seeing "you" (pl.) and how that relates to me, I dunno because I have not derailed anybody. Please stop lumping folks or talking in "you people-isms." There's all manner of hypocrisy up in this thread. Stop it or take it outside! All of youz. *And that isn't you people-ism, that's to all of youz in Christ. Knock it off*!


 
Did you read what you wrote before posting?  Because the exact same thing you have accused others of, you're doing it right now.  "and that isn't you people-ism, that's to all of you in Christ"  Well have you admitted to be a Christian or not?  Are you saying that you're not?  Because if your in Christ, you're speaking to yourself as well.  

Christianity isn't about any of us.  It's about Christ and having a relationship with him and he tells us point blank in the bible about how to go about that.  He also says we got to deny ourselves and follow him.  

See, Satan is up in here having a field day and we're just giving dude a free ride.  I guess he's saying, "who needs south park when this is so much interesting"

Ugh...


----------



## aribell (Mar 16, 2012)

Galadriel said:
			
		

> The Church, it doctrines and traditions are Christ's means of converting us, giving us grace, and knowing true beliefs from false ones.



I don't know if we've hit a fundamental disagreement or a misunderstanding, but I do not believe that at all.  The Church.is composed of those who are already converted only.  It's doctrines and traditions are of no relevance to the unconverted soul.  The only help for the unconverted is the message of repentance and faith in Christ.  Until and unless a person crosses that divide spiritually, the Church is of no use to them...aside from someone sharing the Gospel with them.

ETA:  To clarify, when I hear "convert" I associate it with justification, and I think rightly so.  What I read in that quote sounded something like "Church doctrine and the sacraments are God's way of justifying us," meaning that we could be justified through adherence to traditions, proper doctrine, the sacraments, etc.

(please let me know if I've misread)




CoilyFields said:


> 1. God shows us what true and pure religion would produce. But we must not confuse the fruit with the cause. An inner change (accepting Christ) is what causes us to bear good fruit. Not the church, doctrines, traditions etc...those are erected by God as necessary in helping cultivate our fruit.



Yes, this.

Christians have to keep preaching this point over and over because if you miss this, you miss the Gospel.  

And regarding sacraments generally, like everything else, the outward sign is absolutely meaningless if that inward grace is not there.  Simply doing the actions does not produce the grace.  Looking to actions to produce grace is not the power of God manifest through faith.


----------



## auparavant (Mar 17, 2012)

makeupgirl said:


> Did you read what you wrote before posting?  Because* the exact same thing you have accused others of, you're doing it right now.*  "and that isn't you people-ism, that's to all of you in Christ"  Well have you admitted to be a Christian or not?  Are you saying that you're not?  Because if your in Christ, you're speaking to yourself as well.
> 
> Christianity isn't about any of us.  It's about Christ and having a relationship with him and he tells us point blank in the bible about how to go about that.  He also says we got to deny ourselves and follow him.
> 
> ...



No ma'am, it's admonition.  I read it, thought about it.  People are fighting and name calling, accusing folks...but it's evident.  I wish for them to stop fighting.  I'm not giving him a field day...I'm arresting him.  We can love each other and discuss the issues.  If people would not say "you all" this/that because I, for one, am not doing anything derailing in this thread as I had a sincere question....and the charge lumped individuals in it.    Let's be civil, please, either way the door swings because there is hypocrisy up in here and it's evident...and that is admonition.


Might I offer my question for reconsideration again to someone other than who I communicated with as I fully comprehend her stance and she offered scripture?  I am asking if G-d offers salvation to all.  Is it predestination to consider that He chooses/calls some and not others?  Is there a deeper meaning there?  Is there something any of us is missing in that?  Doesn't G-d wish to save all humans or is He only saving His favorited ones?  That's my issue and something I'd like to understand more completely.  That is not thread derailment.  I don't particularly appreciate the "you-people-ism" cuz I don't sit in corners.  I sit at the table equally with everyone else.  I know we are all getting defensive..but for the sake of those trying to get understanding on something...can that question be answered by several without the blanket statements?  Sheesh!


----------



## CoilyFields (Mar 17, 2012)

This is how I understand predestination... God has given us free will to choose him or reject him. But since he already knows the end and he already knows our hearts he knows who his chosen people are. So it's a destiny that is already known to him. 

 God gives everybody multiple opportunities to draw closer to/accept him. But only he knows how much pressure to exert before it has violated our free will. So those of us who accept him were drawn by his holy spirit. And he knows our final destination before we do.

 It's probably much more complicated than that but that's how I see it.


----------



## aribell (Mar 17, 2012)

**********************
Oops, meant to post above...


----------



## Galadriel (Mar 18, 2012)

nicola.kirwan said:


> I don't know if we've hit a fundamental disagreement or a misunderstanding, but I do not believe that at all.  The Church.is composed of those who are already converted only.  It's doctrines and traditions are of no relevance to the unconverted soul.  The only help for the unconverted is the message of repentance and faith in Christ.  Until and unless a person crosses that divide spiritually, the Church is of no use to them...aside from someone sharing the Gospel with them.
> 
> ETA:  To clarify, when I hear "convert" I associate it with justification, and I think rightly so.  What I read in that quote sounded something like "Church doctrine and the sacraments are God's way of justifying us," meaning that we could be justified through adherence to traditions, proper doctrine, the sacraments, etc.
> 
> (please let me know if I've misread)



I meant conversion as in conversion of heart, repentance .


----------



## Sharpened (Mar 19, 2012)

Galadriel said:


> Yes it is, and so far you've not offered any evidence to back up your claim, and now you say "I'm not going into details."


I am not playing this game. Wasting words on those locked in dogma is pointless. Read the New Testament. There are plenty of books on the subject as well. 



> Church is not a misnomer.


We are the Church (the Ekklesia), the Temple of God made without human hands—not a set of beliefs or building. We need to _be_ His Temple, not go to one.



> The baptism of the Holy Spirit occurred at Pentecost in the book of Acts.


 ...and throughout the letters after it. Everyone knows this.



> You say you are directed by the Holy Spirit in your beliefs, but so do people who claim that Jesus Christ isn't God, or that there is no Trinity, or no such thing as free will.


Evaluate me by my words, not what others say, thank you.



> You claim your subjective interpretation of Scriptures is the Holy Spirit teaching you or guiding you.


All believers are suppose to have this.

*John 16:13 *When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth, for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak, and He will declare to you the things that are to come. 

*John 14:16-17* And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. You know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.



> Why would God want someone outside of or lead someone away from His Church?


For the same reason He has done it throughout the Bible: apostasy. History repeats.



> This does not prove your position. This only condemns hypocrisy, specifically the hypocrisy of the Pharisees and scribes who did things like fasting in public to gain sympathy or praise, and not because they were repentant; they judged harshly other Jews but then failed to live up to the very standard by which they judged (or even lived in opposite of it). This is not a condemnation of religion or tradition--this is a condemnation of hypocrisy.


You are intentionally ignoring the explanation Jesus gave:

*Mark 7:10-13* For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ But you say, ‘If a man tells his father or his mother, “Whatever you would have gained from me is Corban”’ (that is, given to God)—then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother, thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.”



> The Pharisees were looking for the Messiah who would overthrow the Roman Empire's rule and establish an earthly kingdom from Jerusalem. Jesus told them they were mistaken, because He is the Messiah and the Kingdom of God had arrived and was among them.


I know this, but His description still applies today. The Kingdom is spiritual, therefore so should be our focus. 



> This contradicts Scripture. Matthew 16:17-19 says Christ gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom, and the authority to permit or forbid moral and religious beliefs/practices.


Peter was mortal and flawed, as Paul had to point out once (Galatians 2:11-21). The Holy Spirit is eternal and works in all obedient to His will. Those in which the Spirit of the Most High dwells have that ability. 

*1 Corinthians 10:1-4* For I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.



> I believe the Apostles were indwelt by the Holy Spirit and cooperated with the Holy Spirit's graces, but the Apostles (especially Peter) were given a specific task and authority in regards to the Church. They passed this authority and leadership to their Bishops (Episkopos) and Priests (Presbyters).


*2 Timothy 2:19-21* But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.” Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable. *Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.*



> The Apostles were following Christ and baptizing even during Christ's ministry. In fact, John the Baptists's disciples pointed this out (Gospel of John). They obviously didn't go out preaching Christ rose from the dead until He had actually died and rose from the dead.


 I meant _after_ Jesus left. He told them to wait for the Gift before preaching the Evangel. The Father is not pleased right now that His Holy Spirit is being relegated to second place.



> I think we have division because of people saying the Holy Spirit is directly telling them to believe their own personal interpretations of Scripture.


Yes and no. Most times, the Holy Spirit was never consulted, which includes when changes are made. This is why it is imperative to seek Him continuously and to pray to not be deceived.


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## Sharpened (Mar 19, 2012)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharpened  
Without the Holy Spirit’s power, the Evangel has no saving effect. The Holy Spirit is greater than the Body, for without Him, there would be no Body.



Galadriel said:


> The Body is the Body of Christ.


That was unnecessary.



> While the Holy Spirit dispenses graces to the Body of Christ, He does not take or replace the role of the Church, or of Apostolic authority.


So, you are saying the part of the Father connected to us is lesser than your Church. Who causes the separation of the man from the world? Who knows what the Father likes? Does flesh have the power to regenerate someone spiritually? From what Jesus taught, He gets the last word.



> By saying Cephas (Peter) was the Cephas, and upon that Cephas Christ built His Church, I am merely quoting Christ's own words in the Gospel of Matthew.


Bottom line, either the Greek or the Aramaic are wrong, but Paul called Christ the Rock in both the Greek and Aramaic.



> I never said Christ was not our cornerstone, I simply quoted Matthew 16:17-19 to demonstrate that:
> 
> 1. Christ founded a Church, a visible institution on Earth
> 2. Peter the Apostle was given the Keys to the Church, and the authority to permit or forbid beliefs and practices (this is what "bind and loose" mean)
> 3. Christ said that the gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church, which means Christ promises His protection of the Church always


1. The Kingdom is spiritual; therefore His Ekklesia is the same, not a tangible institution. The leadership displayed in the NT was understated and humble.
2. All the apostles had that authority (Matthew 18:18), including Paul.
3. I know that already. Throughout the Bible we see Him pull out a remnant to protect His promise. 



> This contradicts Scripture. Nowhere does Christ states, implies, or gives the authority given to Peter to anyone else.


Jesus addressed this to all of the apostles (Matthew 18:18). You choose to ignore the passages I quoted from 1 Peter. God Himself still chooses who instruct His children, despite of man’s flaws.



> Again, this contradicts Scripture. The Bride of Christ is the Church. If you are a member of the Church, you are part of the Bride of Christ. You don't have to "wait to become the Bride."


The symbolism of the Bride is to become a perfected one to be worth to join with Christ at the end. 



> Are you saying there is a "church" within the Church? Are you saying a person must go through some second type of initiation or step in order to be considered part of the Bride of Christ?


Sanctification by the guidance of the Holy Spirit individually and/or within a group. If the congregation does not do what He said and ignores His warnings, He will remove the Holy Spirit from among them (Revelation 2).



> The Church is holy, because her Spouse (Christ) is Holy. The Holy Spirit dispenses graces and works through her to bring about the sanctification of her individual members, the most perfect and holy of course being the Church members in Heaven. The individual imperfections of Church members here on Earth does not mean the Bride of Christ is not holy and pure, but our sanctification is a process.


Christ is the Bridegroom; at the end of the age, He becomes the Spouse. The symbolism of the Bride points to the end of the age, when all in Christ will be united. This has nothing to do with salvation, so I am done with it. 



> Baptism of water = what John the Baptist did
> 
> Baptism of water and the Spirit = what the Church does


Again, I proved by Scripture they are two separate events. 



> Baptism of Desire


No such thing is in the Bible. By the inspiration of the Holy Spirit did the thief speak, therefore received Him, as the Apostles did.



> Yet clearly you deny the meaning and purpose of a Bishop. If a Bishop is a shepherd, pastor, guardian, what is he guarding? He is guarding the flock and the teachings given him by the Apostles (Scripture + Apostolic Tradition).


Spiritual babies and those struggling do need them, but I have outgrown them. I never said they did not. What I am saying is that these places have become either spiritually corrupt (i.e. using a position to abuse people) or stagnating (i.e keeping people spiritually dependent instead of reaching maturity). People are getting tired of the statue quo.

Apostolic tradition is not in Scripture.



> However if individual members feel the Holy Spirit is directly leading them, then this makes a Bishop (in their view) superfluous.


No, it created more bishops, evangelical, teachers, etc. so the Evangel is spread, leaving more time and resources to handle the new in Christ so they become as them. This is what they did in the NT.

We are to become mature in Christ and fulfill the purpose He created each of us for, not dependent on a system for the rest of our lives. We are to seek fellowship as we spread the Good News.



> Priest is the English word for presbyter. I said nothing about OT Levitical priests. The Presbyters (whom we call priests in English) worked alongside the Bishops in the early Church.  When Bishops had charge of entire areas or communities, the presbyter would minister to individual communities as a direct representative of the Bishop.


Presbyter comes from the Greek word _presbyteroi (old man, elder)_. There were no priests among the early believers. Do some research; the Lord will guide you.



> If you don't understand it, and if you're prejudiced against it, I can see why a person may come to the conclusion you have. While we do honor Mary as a great saint and the Mother of God, we do not believe she is divine or to be adored.


I do understand it; I am not ignorant of your religion. It is not in the Bible to do such a thing for anyone. All honor goes to Jesus and, while on Earth, He gave honor to the Father alone.



> God is not against statues. He commands Moses to make a bronze serpent through which He worked a miracle of healing for the Israelites. Also, the Ark of the Covenant (by God's command) was adorned with statues of angels.


Hezekiah had that “hunk of metal” (which some say that was what _Nehushtan_ meant) destroyed because people were worshiping it (2 Kings 18:4). The Temple was ruined during the Babylonian Captivity because of the Israelites’ worship of images in it. Also Moses was given specific instruction for the Tabernacle:

*Hebrews 8:5* They (Levitical priests) serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain."

Jesus made that all moot when He said for us to worship in spirit and in truth. The spirit is intangible.



> I didn't say anyone in this forum did, but the article committed a theological error by saying "Mary was just the mother of Jesus' humanity/human nature."


Yes, she was an imperfect human, a vessel of honor (fit for use by God) as we all are called to be. One’s viewpoint does not degrade Yeshua in any way.



> Apparently you do care about theological errors if you are taking the time to debate my opposing views.


Theology is the study of religion, what man thinks of God within a Greco-Roman construct (the modern man’s mindset). I care about the truth, not what men think.



> Who are you to judge that a person saying the Sinner's Prayer with sincerity doesn't have true conversion and doesn't receive God's grace? While the Sinner's Prayer is not a Catholic prayer, I think it is a good prayer and many have used it to express to Christ what is in their hearts.


So, we should just error flourish? We are required to point out these things in light of Scripture. Faith is obedience to God’s will and His desires have to be sought after and done daily. That is the narrow path few will find. 



> it's almost as if you're creating a two-tier system of believers where a person is spiritually inferior or not saved unless they have experienced your (personal interpretation of) "baptism of the Holy Spirit."


No, it is an error that needs to be fixed. Scripture said they were two different things, not me. You choose not to see it.



> I understand it perfectly. I just happen to disagree.


So? Those who needed to see it, have and I pray they will seek Him on the issue.


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