# Can Gays Actually Be Changed Internally?



## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (May 29, 2009)

Warning, this is a controversial thread:


What is gayness in G-d's world?  Are there those born gay or those who, at some point, chose the gay lifestyle?  Are there, in fact, people who are born with the tendancy according to what scripture says?  There is also the question of the Apostle Paul possibly being gay...struggling with that tendancy.  I don't know if it's true, but I'd think that he must have struggled with his physical sexual addictions for a lifetime, until the end.  Maybe they never went away...and he knew Jesus like his brother.  Why?  Scriptures?  Opinions?  Apologetics?


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## aribell (May 29, 2009)

You mentioned the apostle Paul possibly being gay and sexual addictions.  Is there something in particular that suggests that he struggled with either?


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (May 29, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> You mentioned the apostle Paul possibly being gay and sexual addictions.  Is there something in particular that suggests that he struggled with either?



That's what I'd like to know.  There have been some theologians who've thought it pointed to this.  I'd never heard of it before today.  I guess I shouldn't be shocked.  And to think, he was Jesus' friend .  So, when we talk about changing things...maybe it's the desire to let loose we should change...not necessarily the desire itself.  I know that's gonna get slapped down .  But I mean, there are some things people can control and things they can't.  But I do believe that G-d has delivered some folks from even the desire.  I don't think it has happened to the majority of those living a bible-observant life.


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## divya (May 29, 2009)

Absolutely. People who practice homosexuality can change, just as any other person who struggles with a particular sin.

*Matthew 19:25-26* -_When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible._


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## msa (May 29, 2009)

This may or may not have anything to do with your original question.

I was reading about how sexual desire/attraction is formed early on through biological imprints (for lack of a better word) made when we first have those feelings. The problem comes in when people have disordered or unhealthy sexual experiences first. 

For example, if someone is molested at the age of 6 by someone of the same sex, their biological imprint for attraction/desire may be for others of the same sex because that's what they're body first "learned" in relation to that realm. They weren't born gay but became gay because of circumstances not under their control. 

From what I have read, that type of biological imprinting is almost impossible to change. You can choose to ignore it and social conditioning for heterosexual relationships makes ignoring it possible.

An interesting question for me is, can belief in God change biology? Since God is all powerful, then the answer is yes. But biological wiring is so powerful that maybe it's impossible. I mean, you can't just pray away the genes that make one have a propensity to addiction, but you can pray away the desire.

It's all very interesting and confusing to me.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (May 29, 2009)

I found this on  Cardinal Ratizinger's letter:

http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_df86ho.htm

3. Explicit treatment of the problem was given in this Congregation's "Declaration on Certain Questions Concerning Sexual Ethics" of December 29, 1975. That document stressed the duty of trying to understand the homosexual condition and noted that culpability for homosexual acts should only be judged with prudence. At the same time the Congregation took note of the distinction commonly drawn between the homosexual condition or tendency and individual homosexual actions. These were described as deprived of their essential and indispensable finality, as being "intrinsically disordered", and able in no case to be approved of (cf. n. 8, sect. 4).

In the discussion which followed the publication of the Declaration, however, an overly benign interpretation was given to the homosexual condition itself, some going so far as to call it neutral, or even good. Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder. 

12. What, then, are homosexual persons to do who seek to follow the Lord? Fundamentally, they are called to enact the will of God in their life by joining whatever sufferings and difficulties they experience in virtue of their condition to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross. That Cross, for the believer, is a fruitful sacrifice since from that death come life and redemption. While any call to carry the cross or to understand a Christian's suffering in this way will predictably be met with bitter ridicule by some, it should be remembered that this is the way to eternal life for all who follow Christ.

It is, in effect, none other than the teaching of Paul the Apostle to the Galatians when he says that the Spirit produces in the lives of the faithful "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, trustfulness, gentleness and self-control" (5:22) and further (5:24), "You cannot belong to Christ unless you crucify all self-indulgent passions and desires."

It is easily misunderstood, however, if it is merely seen as a pointless effort at self-denial. The Cross is a denial of self, but in service to the will of God himself who makes life come from death and empowers those who trust in him to practise virtue in place of vice.

To celebrate the Paschal Mystery, it is necessary to let that Mystery become imprinted in the fabric of daily life. To refuse to sacrifice one's own will in obedience to the will of the Lord is effectively to prevent salvation. Just as the Cross was central to the expression of God's redemptive love for us in Jesus, so the conformity of the self-denial of homosexual men and women with the sacrifice of the Lord will constitute for them a source of self-giving which will save them from a way of life which constantly threatens to destroy them.

Christians who are homosexual are called, as all of us are, to a chaste life. As they dedicate their lives to understanding the nature of God's personal call to them, they will be able to celebrate the Sacrament of Penance more faithfully and receive the Lord's grace so freely offered there in order to convert their lives more fully to his Way.

They explained the existence of along the lines of what Chicanella and others said.  I guess my question is about the inclination of and if that in itself is considered a sin.  According the them, it is not.  But it is the result of the Fall.  Someone I know also explained to me that the Church's stance is that it's complex and subjective.  Has to do with full knowledge and full will.  I guess that's what I was trying to get at...something I had heard before but couldn't put it together in the right way.  

Coming into this discussion, I was clumsy and awkward, I can admit.  Much like an English ladies' tea party where I galloped in on a horse knocking down tables and tea pots...whereas, they came in wearing lace doilies and high heels.   But all in all, this is what I was getting at.  It's a moral disorder...but the inclination of is objective AND subjective, depending upon the situation.  And it needs prudence in determing the complexity of...  So, just being one (not acting it out) is not a sin, in and of itself...but because of sin in the world it exists......I don't think that's what the other were saying here...perhaps they were?  . Clop clop, clop clop....I exit.


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## aribell (May 29, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> That's what I'd like to know. There have been some theologians who've thought it pointed to this. I'd never heard of it before today. I guess I shouldn't be shocked. And to think, he was Jesus' friend . So, when we talk about changing things...maybe it's the desire to let loose we should change...not necessarily the desire itself. I know that's gonna get slapped down . But I mean, there are some things people can control and things they can't. But I do believe that G-d has delivered some folks from even the desire. I don't think it has happened to the majority of those living a bible-observant life.


 
Do you mean the Apostle John, the "one whom Jesus loved"?  I have heard biblical scholars speculate about him, and he was known as Jesus' friend.  Paul, though, "met" Jesus only once, when he was knocked off his horse after persecuting Christians.

Anyway, I've heard some gay Christians say that the attraction has never gone away--but they choose to live in accordance with God's commands, and others say that the Lord changed their heart completely.  I believe both.  I have also heard some talk about working through underlying issues that led them into homosexuality, and once they dealt with those emotional/psychological things, that they were no longer needed the same sex to fill whatever.  It seems like there are many different possible reasons that any individual gay person is attracted to the same sex.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (May 29, 2009)

And so, from this section from that letter, it would seem to me that the scripture is saying to bring it under control...not that it will be erased.  The sacrifice is to live the will of G-d.  Self-mortification, crucifying that desire...not that it will cease to exist...part of the struggle of the individual in this life?


It is, in effect, none other than the teaching of Paul the Apostle to the Galatians when he says that the Spirit produces in the lives of the faithful "love, joy, peace, *patience, *kindness, goodness, trustfulness, gentleness and *self-control"* (5:22) and further (5:24), "You cannot belong to Christ *unless you crucify all self-indulgent passions and desires.*"

It is easily misunderstood, however, if it is merely seen as a pointless effort at self-denial. The Cross is a denial of self, but in service to the will of God himself who makes life come from death and empowers those who trust in him to *practise virtue *in place of vice.

To celebrate the Paschal Mystery, it is necessary to let that Mystery become imprinted in the fabric of daily life. To refuse to sacrifice one's own will in obedience to the will of the Lord is effectively to prevent salvation. Just as the Cross was central to the expression of God's redemptive love for us in Jesus, so the conformity of the self-denial of homosexual men and women with the sacrifice of the Lord will constitute for them a source of self-giving which will save them from a way of life which constantly threatens to destroy them...

To the bolded, I see that it means the struggle remains. Being in that struggle means the desires are there.  That means that the believer has those struggles.  So, it's not saying he's not to be saved in the end....it's telling him/her to bring it under control under the mandates of G-d ...our actions.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (May 29, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> Do you mean the Apostle John, the "one whom Jesus loved"?  I have heard biblical scholars speculate about him, and he was known as Jesus' friend.  Paul, though, "met" Jesus only once, when he was knocked off his horse after persecuting Christians.
> 
> Anyway, I've heard some gay Christians say that the attraction has never gone away--but they choose to live in accordance with God's commands, and others say that the Lord changed their heart completely.  I believe both.  I have also heard some talk about working through underlying issues that led them into homosexuality, and once they dealt with those emotional/psychological things, that they were no longer needed the same sex to fill whatever.  It seems like there are many different possible reasons that any individual gay person is attracted to the same sex.



Thanks, y'all.


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## inthepink (May 29, 2009)

This reminded me of something I saw on tv a year or so ago.

There was a little boy - about age 3/4/5 maybe and apparently, he showed his parents in so many ways that he wanted to be a girl.  He desired all types of girl things.  And so they "let him."  I remember there was one scene they showed where the little boy had a birthday party.  He wanted to wear a bathing suit like a little girl and so his parents let him.  I was a little shocked.  

In my opinion, the parents were definitely wrong in contributing to this behavior (I am not sure if they were Christians or not.) but I'm not sure what they specifically should have done for the better.

What would be the correct protocol for a child exhibiting gay behaviors at such a young age?


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## Hotmommak (May 30, 2009)

I used to watch "The Riches" on FX and their little boy was gay and would dress like a girl.  They even let him change his  name.  That made me wonder the same thing. 
Also, I agree that the desire may not be gone for everyone, but they will acquire the ability to refrain from the behavior.  I would think it's like smoking, alcoholism, or any other addiction/sin.  My stepfather was an alcoholic for YEARS.  He got involved in church, became saved, and stopped drinking about 10 years ago.  He and my mother have known each other for a long time, and when he moved back to Louisiana, and was saved, they got married.  He has told me that he was amazed that when he asked God to take away his desire to drink that it was cold turkey.  He hasn't had the desire to drink or even have the feeling that alcohol used to give him!

There are also the people that have the struggle every single day, but depend on their relationship with God to help them make it through each day.  I think that it has to do with the person.


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## Shimmie (May 30, 2009)

http://www.narth.com/menus/born.html​


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## Hotmommak (May 30, 2009)

> http://www.narth.com/menus/born.html


wow!  I just read this:  http://www.narth.com/docs/popmusic.html


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## Shimmie (May 30, 2009)

Hotmommak said:


> wow! I just read this: http://www.narth.com/docs/popmusic.html


 
 God is amazing...

It's interesting how the media and POLITRICKS will NEVER mention any of this except to disqualify it.


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## Shimmie (May 30, 2009)

http://www.narth.com/menus/myths.html

*The Three Myths About Homosexuality*

*Myth #1*

_Homosexuality is normal and biologically determined._ 

*The truth...*

*There is no scientific research indicating a biological or genetic cause for homosexuality*. Biological factors may play a role in the _predisposition_ to homosexuality. However, this is true of many other psychological conditions. 


*Research suggests that social and psychological factors are strongly influential.* Examples include problems in early family relationships, sexual seduction, and sense of inadequacy with same-sex peers, with resulting disturbance in gender identity. Society can also influence a sexually questioning youth when it encourages gay self-labeling. 

*Myth #2*

_Homosexuals cannot change, and if they try, they will suffer great emotional distress and become suicidal. Therefore, treatment to change homosexuality must be stopped._ 

*The truth...*

*Psychotherapists around the world who treat homosexuals report that significant numbers of their clients have experienced substantial healing. Change has come through psychological therapy, spirituality, and ex-gay support groups. *

*Whether leading married or committed celibate lives, many report that their homosexual feelings have diminished greatly, and do not trouble them as much as they had in the past.*


*The keys to change are desire, persistence, and a willingness to investigate the conscious and unconscious conflicts from which the condition originated. Change comes slowly, usually over several years. *

*Clients learn how to meet their needs for same-sex nurturance and affirmation without eroticizing the relationship. *

*As they grow into their heterosexual potential, men and women typically experience a deeper and fuller sense of themselves as male or female. *

*If some homosexuals do not wish to change, that is their choice, yet it is profoundly sad that gay-rights activists struggle against the right-to-treatment for other homosexuals who yearn for freedom from their attractions. *

*Myth #3*

_We must teach our children that homosexuality is as normal and healthy as heterosexuality. Teenagers should be encouraged to celebrate their same-sex attractions._ 

*The truth...*

Scientific research supports age-old cultural norms that homosexuality is _not_ a healthy, natural alternative to heterosexuality. Research shows that gay teens are especially vulnerable to substance abuse and early, high-risk sexual behavior. It does far more _harm_ than _good_ to tell a teenager that his or her attractions toward members of the same sex are normal and desirable. Teens in this position need understanding and counseling, not a push in the direction of a potentially deadly lifestyle. 


A 1992 study in _Pediatrics_ found that 25.9% of 12-year-olds are uncertain if they are gay or straight. The teen years are _critical_ to the question of self-labeling, so the facts must be presented in our schools in a fair and balanced manner. 


-------------------------
*Hosea 4:6*

_"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge ............"_

The media has been given too much liberty in their lies about this issue.  No where will you see this come about before the Supreme Court...


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## Hotmommak (May 30, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> God is amazing...
> 
> It's interesting how the media and POLITRICKS will NEVER mention any of this except to disqualify it.



You're so right.  I have actually wondered about these studies, but I never looked any of it up.  It's so strange how many things are kept out of the public eye, so to speak.


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## Mortons (May 30, 2009)

No.

.............................


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## DarlingNikki (May 30, 2009)

> Can Gays Actually Be Changed Internally?



I would gather not.  Just like I can't be "changed internally" from being a heterosexual.


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## Shimmie (May 30, 2009)

DarlingNikki said:


> I would gather not. Just like I can't be "changed internally" from being a heterosexual.


That's because you are as God created and designed you...heterosexual.  

Homosexuals are not born, nor God's intent for humanity, but situations in life have lead them into the lifestyle.   It's proven and it's Truth... homosexuality does not rule humanity and it never will.  

The media has lied.  There are muliples of gays worldwide who have been set free completely and many, many more millions to follow suit...delivered.


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## DarlingNikki (May 30, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> http://www.narth.com/menus/myths.html



Interesting....especially considering NARTH has been condemned by ALL of the mental health professional associations.


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## Shimmie (May 30, 2009)

Another powerful testimony...

by Siena de la Croix

http://www.narth.com/docs/leaving2.html

[FONT=verdana,arial]*Leaving Lesbianism And
Confronting LGBT Activism-- My Story*

[/FONT]As someone who has personally struggled with lesbianism, I am very aware of the unhappiness, confusion and misery that it can cause in one's life.

There are those who would say that the only way for homosexually oriented people to find any real peace or happiness in life, is to just accept their homosexuality, fully immerse themselves in Gay-Affirmative Therapy and ultimately "come out." 

My own experience, however, has proven this idea false. I have been undergoing Reparative Therapy* and have found it to be extremely effective in providing me with not only a tremendous amount of relief and healing in my struggle, but also a profound sense of peace and happiness that I have not experienced before.

The improvements I have experienced have been so great, in fact, that I have become strongly motivated to do all I can to change the opinion of those people who aggressively oppose this type of therapy.

But where should a layperson start such an endeavor? Where does one go to have their voice and experience heard--and ultimately, to have some influence on how homosexuality is viewed and treated?

I decided to begin by sharing, in a letter, my views and experience of Reparative Therapy with the American Psychiatric Association (APA). To date, I have not received even so much as an acknowledgment from the APA that they received my letter.

Next, I decided to begin a personal quest to try to somehow reach Ellen DeGeneres and attempt, via my own witness, to open her mind to the possibility that treatment alternatives like Reparative Therapy can be good and effective, and subsequently, do have a valid place.

Ellen's "coming out" in 1997 and her subsequent implied endorsement and promotion of Gay-Affirmative Therapy as being the sole healthy, acceptable treatment approach has profoundly influenced the lives of many homosexually oriented people, not just in the United States, but around the entire world. Ellen's public witness has also given much strength to the gay-activist movement and its political push to have Reparative Therapy banned, and Gay-Affirmative Therapy recognized by the APA as the only healthy and acceptable treatment modality.

I attempted to reach Ellen earlier this year by writing my story about my life and experience with homosexuality, and the therapy I had undergone. I was hoping that, in the remote chance of her receiving and reading it (amongst the thousands of other letters she receives), she might at least enter into some dialogue with me about it. Not surprisingly, I have not had any response to that letter.

(_Continued...)_


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## Shimmie (May 30, 2009)

Continued...

by Siena de la Croix

http://www.narth.com/docs/leaving2.html


Then, I decided to attempt to reach Ellen by posting a short letter on the public comment boards on her show's website. Here is a copy of my post:

Dear Ellen,​
I think you are an incredibly fun, caring and talented person... I just absolutely love your humor and I think you are very genuine... and it is because I really do care for you very much as a person that I want to share some thoughts with you about something that is very relevant to both of us, and that you might like to think about.​
Since I was 18 I have experienced homosexual attraction and have been in several same-sex relationships. However, after a lot of research and study on the subject, as well as a lot of honest soul-searching, I have come to the conclusion that homosexuality is not normal, natural and healthy.​
Just from a totally biological point of view, it is really quite clear to me that our bodies were not "naturally designed" to have sex with the same sex. I mean, if we were meant to have sex with members of the same sex, we would have had designed into our bodies a natural way to satisfy each other sexually. As it is, fulfilment can only be obtained artificially -- that is, homosexual men and women both have to use "things" that you can hardly say were naturally designed for sexual intercourse (eg., anus, mouth, vibrator, rubber dildos, hand, etc. etc.... sorry for being so explicit but we need to be really honest here and face the reality of the situation and not gloss over the truth).​
The fact is, the natural design of our bodies clearly reveals their true purpose and intention and in homosexual actions, we are clearly not using our bodies in the way they were naturally designed to be used. On the contrary, we are using them in an unnatural way and therefore it cannot be normal or healthy.​
Anything done against nature cannot be right or healthy. We may initially think we can "get away with" doing things against nature and that it is "OK," but as with everything else in nature, when it is abused, ignored or not respected, there always will be negative consequences to pay.​
I know you will say, if it is not "natural," then what causes people to be sexually attracted to people of the same sex? From all of my research and study (of which I have done an enormous amount), I am now totally convinced that it is actually a psychological and emotional disorder caused primarily by early childhood family and social experiences and influences, and our unconscious reaction to those influences (which is largely dependent upon our inherent personality and temperament type)... And it can be effectively treated, or at the very least alleviated, in people who are willing to obtain help.​
I have been undergoing therapy for some time now to help repair the emotional damage that I experienced in my early developmental years, which I believe caused most of my homosexual-attraction problems, and I can honestly attest to the therapy's effectiveness. I am finally starting to feel "alive" for the first time in my life. At the same time, I am also starting to discover what I believe to be the "real me," the "true me"... at last; that is, the person who I was really meant to be... the person I was originally designed to be.​
In other words, I am slowly becoming on the inside, the person that reflects the physical person I was born as on the outside... To put it another way, my internal psychological and emotional sexual identity is slowly aligning with the gender or sexual identity with which I was physically born. The two are actually becoming less in conflict with each other, and are slowly re-aligning to become one--i.e., female, inside and out. And, what's even more incredible, I am now actually feeling my homosexual urges starting to diminish and heterosexual attraction starting to develop in me!​
This has been so liberating for me and has given me such a great sense of peace about myself, unlike I have ever known before. That is not to say that it has been easy. There's been a fair amount of "emotional surgery" performed to get to this point (and still some more needed) and it takes a lot of courage, determination and willpower to get through it, but in the end, I believe it to be truly worth it for the ultimate relief that it brings.​
I recommend that you consider it... you may believe that you have had some great moments in your life thus far, but trust me, if you really open your mind to what I am saying and choose to take my advice.... the best is yet to come!"​


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## Shimmie (May 30, 2009)

by Siena de la Croix

http://www.narth.com/docs/leaving2.html


Of course, in posting that comment, I had no idea if it was ever even going to get past Ellen's web monitors and into her own hands or not, but whatever the case, here follows what happened. Within 24 hours of my comment being posted, it was not only removed from the website, but _I was banned from posting on the site again!_

Every time I attempted to post something again, a page came up with the statement, "You are not allowed to post on here"!

So much for freedom of speech, I thought! Where is the tolerance and acceptance of other peoples' views? Why is it that Ellen is allowed to talk openly about her personal experience with regard to her homosexuality, but I am not allowed to talk about my own personal experience and feelings with regard to this same issue?

I then re-posted my comment on Ellen's website through someone else's computer, along with some added questions as to why my post was removed-- and again, I was banned from the site. My post was removed and I was banned from sending anything through that second computer!
_Four times_ I re-posted my comment with the attached questions regarding their discriminatory and intolerant response to my post, and _each time,_ my post was removed.

About a week later, I thought I would try to see if I could post again from my own computer; and lo and behold, for whatever the reason, they had lifted the ban. So I decided to try re-posting a slightly edited version of my original comment. When I checked the website the next morning, not only was my _new_ post gone, but everywhere that _anyone_ could previously post a comment on the show's website, had also been removed. All public comment/feedback options were now totally gone!

What was the reason? I don't know, but even though the public comment boards on Ellen's website have been shut down, my personal quest has not!

One way or another I am determined, as one who has found Reparative Therapy to be immensely helpful, to find a way to have some say in this important public debate. Gay activists alone should not have all the say when it comes to deciding what is effective and acceptable in the treatment of homosexuality. Those of us who have benefited from Reparative Therapy also need to be heard and considered.

Reparative Therapy works for me, and nobody has the right to deny me, or anyone else for that matter, access to it.
------Siena de la Croix​
--* With Cynthia Winn, MFT at the Thomas Aquinas Psychological Clinic (Encino, CA) 
----------------------

It's a shame that gays cannot support those who chose to be set free from homosexuality.   And at the same time CLAIM equal rights and CIVIL rights.  And then stupid judges join them in not supporting the rights of everyone. 

Gays have every right to be set free and to share it with others who are also looking to be free.  They actually banned this woman who had a wonderful testimony to share of her freedom; she was banned from Ellen's site just to keep the gay movment moving.   It's pure sabotage.


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## DarlingNikki (May 30, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> That's because you are as God created and designed you...heterosexual.
> 
> *Homosexuals are not born, nor God's intent for humanity*, but situations in life have lead them into the lifestyle.   It's proven and it's Truth... homosexuality does not rule humanity and it never will.
> 
> The media has lied.  *There are muliples of gays worldwide who have been set free completely and many, many more millions to follow suit...delivered.*



I'm sure they do an amazing, oscar worthy job in suppressing the urge to act out .  I'm amused by the term "set free".

Also, God's intent for humanity wasn't for us to fall from His grace either but we did and have been born in sin since then.  So using your argument, what makes you think that homosexuals cannot be born?


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## alexstin (May 30, 2009)

I wonder if many gays that desire to walk with God believe they prayed hard and read the word alot but still weren't delivered so this must be God's will for them. I rarely, if ever, hear mention of Holy Spirit in these sorts of discussions. Considering He was sent to make us more like the Father it is unfortunate. 

Many behaviors are exhibited in children from a young age, ever had to teach a child to lie? No, they do it automatically because we are all born with a bend towards sin. It's manifests itself differently in everyone. Anxiety disorders, depression, and alcoholism are other things that ppl say can't truly be changed and if you(general you) believe that then it is fulfilled.


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## Shimmie (May 30, 2009)

DarlingNikki said:


> I'm sure they do an amazing, oscar worthy job in suppressing the urge to act out . I'm amused by the term "set free".
> 
> Also, God's intent for humanity wasn't for us to fall from His grace either but we did and have been born in sin since then. So using your argument, what makes you think that homosexuals cannot be born?


You and no one else will ever be able to render homosexuality as unredeemable.   Jesus nailed it to the Cross as He did with 'ALL' sins.  

Therefore, homosexuality is not a suppressed desire that outrules the power of God.  I have no doubt that there are 'doubters' who will be used of satan to discourage those who wish to be free from what is 'unnatural'. 

Homosexuality is 'unrepented' sin, not something someone was born in.  As with any other sin, God has prepared a way of escape for all of it, most definitely including the sin of homosexuality.   It is not meant for them to remain that way.  

Why on earth would you deny someone from being set free from such a bondage?   Regarding the Mental Health Association, they have obviously succombed to pressure.  I have absolutely no doubt that any organization who is too weak to see the positive side of life, but would prefer to work hand in hand with politicians to make a lifestyle a god, rather than to put it in it's place which is under the foot of God who truly rules and reigns.

Go ahead with your doubts, but make sure you also carry the same doubt when you need God to answer prayer for you in other areas of your life. If you cannot believe God can deliver one from homosexuality, then by all means, your faith is weaken and nil to believe Him for your own salvation, healing, and provision for your life here on earth.  God is Sovereign.  There are no limitations within Him.  He is Lord over all, including homosexuality.  I don't care who doubts it.   

No sin can be separated from the Cross that Jesus died upon, which indeed includes homosexuality.    Gays have a right to be set free from this bondage and to live and to know the fullness of God and to inherit the Kingdom of God.   God has ways to help them find their way to Him; to lead and guide them into all truth; to lead them into the paths of righteousness for His namesake; and to be set free from a life that only has destruction ahead for them.   

How dare anyone cast doubt and hinder their souls from God's Best in this life.   Who is anyone to say that they cannot be delivered.   It's not God's intent for them to remain that way.  As with all sin, they deserve to be set free as anyone else, for it is not God's will that anyone should perish. 

For anyone seeking deliverance, who has fear or doubt, 'Dare to Believe God...'   Dare and do not allow anyone's doubt to hold you back.   

You see folks everyday praying and believing God for all other areas of their lives, and they are praying for things far less important; praying for problems which they've gotten themselves into (in debt due to overspending, rent late because they spent the money on getting their hair done; car notes for a car they can't afford, etc.).  

NOW....how much more will God not answer the prayer of the heart of one or those who have loved ones who are gay?  satan has toyed with your heart, mind and emotions long enough.  It's time to take back the life that he's stolen and live the true life God has ordained for you.  The True Rights of a homosexual are not 'civil' but Eternal Rights in the Kingdom of God.  

Dare to believe God and not those who cast fear or doubt.   God will not cast you out or away.  Let Him set you free from the lies of society and the hurts of your past.   God has ways that no man can master, so let Him set you or your loved one free.


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## Miamori (May 30, 2009)

My fundamental belief is that individuals are individuals. Gays, like heterosexuals or anyone else, have individualistic experiences, and life, faith, and anything else do not have the same effects on an entire group of people.

My opinion is that some gay people can change internally, some will, some won't, and some can't. The same is true for anyone else, IMO.

Some people can "actually be changed internally," and others cannot.

ETA: And by "cannot," I simply mean that while there is a basic propensity to change in anyone, for *everyone* in certain areas, there are aspects of their lives (if they view those as faults) that for whatever reason they continually remain incapable of managing to permanently overcome.

I believe this because I know of no one, with one exception, who is perfect, or in other words, faultless.


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## DarlingNikki (May 30, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> You and no one else will ever be able to render homosexuality as unredeemable.   Jesus nailed it to the Cross as He did with 'ALL' sins.
> 
> Therefore, homosexuality is not a suppressed desire that outrules the power of God.  I have no doubt that there are 'doubters' who will be used of satan to discourage those who wish to be free from what is 'unnatural'.
> 
> ...



I simply stated that we are all born with sin.  Unless you are perfect as pie, then yes, you are suppressing a lot of your sinful ways.....just like the "converted" homosexuals you speak of.


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## msa (May 30, 2009)

DarlingNikki said:


> Interesting....especially considering NARTH has been condemned by ALL of the mental health professional associations.



**HUGE Thanks**



alexstin said:


> Many behaviors are exhibited in children from a young age, ever had to teach a child to lie? No, they do it automatically because we are all born with a bend towards sin..



Interesting thought.


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## chicacanella (May 30, 2009)

DarlingNikki said:


> I simply stated that we are all born with sin. Unless you are perfect as pie, then yes, you are suppressing a lot of your sinful ways.....just like the "converted" homosexuals you speak of.


 

Nikki, I want to say that before you read what I write. Please take a few minutes to pray and ask God to open up your heart, mind, spirit to receive what He has to say to you in the name of Jesus Christ. This is something so serious and I feel The holy Spirt saying that you should seek God, seek Him.  He wants you to know the truth indefinitely and hear it so clear from Him.  This is from my heart and a really, really serious.  If The Holy Spirit leads me back here then I'll be back, if not...then you already know.

















*In regards to your post, what scriptures can you post that state this? Babies are not born with sin. I first thought you wrote that children were born into sin but now, it seems that you write they are born with sin. I didn't go back to see what you wrote but this is out of memory and I may be wrong. Into and with are to very different prepositions and I think often, this is how many of us become confused because certain subtraction or misuse of words can render a totally different meaning. *

* You do not inherit the sins of your father. This is why Jesus said, “nless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 18:3, emp. added).  Here'a clearer explanation:*

*If children come to the world with a “fallen human nature and tainted by original sin” (to use the words of the Catechism), why would men have to become as little children, who are also “contaminated” with sin? The Bible is clear: sin is not inherited. No baby has ever been born bearing the guilt of Adam’s sin. No one bears the responsibility for Adam’s sin but Adam himself.*

*Ezekiel 18:20*
*20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.*

*In regards to your second post, I would like to say that when you walk in the spirit and rely on the spirit of God, things that  you would normally desire to do you either don't desire to do anymore or they become less desirable. We are all at different points in our walk but with The Holy Spirit teaching us in all things and guiding us, we as Christians have conviction when something is wrong or not even if the bible doesn't explicitly say, "X,Y, Z."  Some people on here probably could not control their desire to fornicate but may be completely delivered from this sin while someone else may still be having struggles. So, you have one person that is suppressing the urges while the other person doesn't have any urges at all. This is called spiritual growth and maturing.  This is what the scriptures mean when it says, 18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect[a] the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.*

*We are all being changed from glory to glory so that things we used to have to suppress aren't even a problem anymore because the temptation is no longer there.  You may not be tempted by one thing while I am, so when you speak of the former homosexuals only repressing their old behaviors/thoughts/desires does not speak to the whole equation of people brought out of this stronghold.  And with the spirit of God, it's not really suppression in the human sense but it is rather as God says, "not by strength, nor by power but by my spirit." So, it is by submitting yourself to God and allowing Him to continually bring you closer to the center of His will. It's not any type of books, or chants, or magic potions that change someone or truly sets them free but by God's spirit. And if you believe that God is God then why is it impossible?  How can we put God in a box and say that He can't do something when He already said in His word that He would?*


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## Shimmie (May 30, 2009)

chicacanella said:


> Nikki, I want to say that before you read what I write. Please take a few minutes to pray and ask God to open up your heart, mind, spirit to receive what He has to say to you in the name of Jesus Christ. This is something so serious and I feel The holy Spirt saying that you should seek God, seek Him. He wants you to know the truth indefinitely and hear it so clear from Him. This is from my heart and a really, really serious. If The Holy Spirit leads me back here then I'll be back, if not...then you already know.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you.  Someone needs to know and 'hear' this.   Chica you, nor any of us may never know who will be reading this message, who is seeking help and thinking that they will never have a way out of a lifestyle which society has made a mandate to be acceptable, yet in reality it is entrapment. 

God is speaking through you and others that they do not have to give up.  And God is asking them NOT to give up.  I know and believe this with all of my heart.  

Each time in the past when I would post the 'wrongs' of homosexuality, in the pit of my heart, I would have a dreadful feeling that someone may be reading who is lost and cannot find their way.   

I can no longer post the wrongs of a gay lifestyle and not be mindful that for every wrong there is a right and a way to find the path of it.  I cannot post the wrong without the deliverance for it.  

*Again I am speaking to the hearts of those who may reading and thinking, if or how can you or someone you love deeply be free?*

You may be a Pastor, a Pastor's wife, a Pastor's son or daughter, family member.   You can be a highly respected Church member or a new member in hiding.   

You may be the mother or father of a gay son or daugther, or other family member or friend.  Please do not give up on them.  God hasn't and He never will.   

You may be a teenager who has been misguided or introduced to this lifestyle by friends or a friend who said, it's okay and yet you know deep inside that it is not.  

You may be a wife scorned by your husband, who cheated on you and found yourself in the arms of your best friend and something went too far and now you wonder...if you are ???   

You may be a man, a 'man's man' at that.  Big, burly, handsome, strong and gifted in charm, yet you have a 'secret' that you fear will disarm your manhood.  

Whoever you are, you are no longer bound to a mystery, neither lifestyle which is beyond your control.   God has answers for you.  And most of all, He died to give this one thing to you.... His unconditional love to embrace you and to set you completely free.  Free to fulfill His plan, and give you a new mind, a new heart, a brand new start.  

Don't let anyone discourage you.  Allow God to show you the path you need for your particular healing.   He will do this and never forsake you nor disgrace you.   It's between you and Him and those He has set in place to help you all the way.  

God is giving you Beauty for Ashes.   He has engraved you into the palms of His hands, into the very whole of His Heart and Total Being.   God loves you no matter what you have done.   He has not left you, neither will He give up on you.   

Be not afraid to Believe; neither doubt that you will be free. 

For you are 'free', for whom the Son sets free is free indeed.  

God loves you.  It doesn't matter to Him how long you've been where you are, or if you felt that you didn't wish to leave at one time.   Now is a new day and a new beginning for you.   Don't give up.  Let God's love see you through.   

God has this to say ...

_FOR I KNOW the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. _

_Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. _

_And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. _

_And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity......_

Jeremiah 29:11-14

 In Jesus' Name, you are free... God loves you just that much and more. :Rose:


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## Shimmie (May 30, 2009)

DarlingNikki said:


> I simply stated that we are all born with sin. Unless you are perfect as pie, then yes, you are suppressing a lot of your sinful ways.....just like the "converted" homosexuals you speak of.


Chica gave you the most loving and truthful answer.  

I can add that 'imperfection' is not synonomous with 'suppression'.


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## aribell (May 30, 2009)

So much of our understanding of our sexuality is chemical--a physical thing, not only spiritual, mental, and emotional.  That is not the same as saying that there's a "gene" for homosexuality, rather that the hormones in our bodies require a certain kind of balance in order to keep things in order, and that balance contributes significantly to our expressions of masculinity and femininity.  

I do believe that for some people, telling them that because they are believers that God will change their homosexuality is like telling someone who's schizophrenic that God did not intend that they be born that way and that through faith, God will heal their mind.  The Lord certainly does such things, but sometimes he does not, and it's a burden that some believers have to bear.  

We can still have a message of hope and redemption for homosexuals without promoting particular opinions on the origins of their feelings.  Because even if today science hasn't found a "gay" gene, it very well could tomorrow, and if they did that wouldn't change God's commands, nor the grace that He extends to those struggling with same sex attractions who genuinely seek to do his will.  

Plus, when a completely heterosexual Christian is speaking to someone who knows that from their first memory they felt that they were a boy rather than a girl, or always felt attracted to the same sex, there really isn't a place for the hetero's opinion on why that is the case.  There are professionals who can address those issues, but I think that Christians have really hurt and insulted many gay people by insisting that they must be gay because of a bad relationship, sexual abuse, whatever.  Yes, those factors are very significant in many (who knows, most?) cases, but we really cannot see into a person's heart to be able to accurately judge why they are the way they are.  And I don't think the Lord requires us to do so.  We just need to keep on preaching repentance and forgiveness and grace.


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## msa (May 30, 2009)

Nicola, thanks for your whole post. I just have a question.



nicola.kirwan said:


> Plus, when a completely heterosexual Christian is speaking to someone who knows that from their first memory they felt that they were a boy rather than a girl, or always felt attracted to the same sex, there really isn't a place for the hetero's opinion on why that is the case.  There are professionals who can address those issues, but I think that Christians have really hurt and insulted many gay people by insisting that they must be gay because of a bad relationship, sexual abuse, whatever.  Yes, those factors are very significant in many (who knows, most?) cases, but we really cannot see into a person's heart to be able to accurately judge why they are the way they are.  And I don't think the Lord requires us to do so.  *We just need to keep on preaching repentance* and forgiveness and grace.




If someone has, from their earliest memory, known they were a different sex than the body they were given or has only been attracted to the same sex, how does that relate to repentance?

I guess what I'm asking is, can you repent for having feelings you've had since you were 3 or 4 or 5? And, is it even their "fault" and their "sin" if they have always felt that way?

I'm just mulling this over so if anyone has opinions on it, it'd be great.


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## Shimmie (May 30, 2009)

Clueless.... 

So I'm reading the links on Reparative Therapy (healing for gays) and there's a website that is anti, meaning they don't agree with the therapy ... (_whatever_).

Anyhoo, this gay psychologist who is 'anti' reparative therapy for gays, has a huge red ribbon on his website with a message underneath which says, "Support the Fight Against Aids..."  

Ummm, in *HIS *case he could stop defending / promoting homosexuality... it's still _*higher* _among gay / bi / dl men.


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## aribell (May 30, 2009)

msa said:


> Nicola, thanks for your whole post. I just have a question.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
The sin isn't the attraction or inclination, it's the indulgence in the feelings.  So, a gay person who feels that they've always been that way doesn't need to repent of any sin for _feeling_ a certain way since they were young.  But they would need to reject the attraction and the feelings and not act on them.


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## Shimmie (May 30, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> *The sin isn't the attraction or inclination, it's the indulgence in the feelings. So, a gay person who feels that they've always been that way doesn't need to repent of any sin for feeling a certain way since they were young.* But they would need to reject the attraction and the feelings and not act on them.


@ the bolded, we have to very, very careful with this.  It's a prelude to justify homosexuality and/or feelings.   The mind is a breeding ground and 'thoughts' and feelings do and can manifest themselves if not checked or understood.   This same principle can be applied to those who may think of harming others.  The thoughts are there, but if not checked can and most likely lead to the action itsself when a motivation to do so presents itsself. 

With gays, this is what is known as SSA (same sex attraction, thoughts and feeling of such) and there are many, many factors in life which cause it.  Persons with SSA need the support of those qualified, who help them to not only disarm such feelings and attractions, but to also understand them and the root cause that addresses them personally.  

Homosexuality is obviously a 'thought' that cannot be played with , taken lightly.   Already society has been turned upside down with it.   It has gone as far school curriculums teaching this lifestyle to 5 year olds.  It's now in the California school curriculum. 

Today, with so much pressure to promote the gay lifestyle, with so many 'in your face' tactics, I dare say that anyone with the 'thoughts' would not be soon involved with the activity of it.   Therefore the Ministries, Support Groups and Organizations for setting gays free, are all the more crucial to made known to those who are gay do not wish to stay that way.  

The devil does not wish to see homosexuality as a redemptive sin, be it in word, thought or deed.  Gays can be set free, even from the 'thoughts' of it, which would eventually keep them in bondage and into engagement of it.  Inclinations and attractions are dangerous preludes.  A time bomb waiting to explode.   It may not be an 'active' sin, but the prelude is surely there and the sin is not to disarm it and render it powerless in the minds and lives of those who have these thoughts.

_For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 

(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds 

*CASTING DOWN IMAGINATIONS,* and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 

2 Corinthians 10:4-6
And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. _


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (May 30, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> So much of our understanding of our sexuality is chemical--a physical thing, not only spiritual, mental, and emotional.  That is not the same as saying that there's a "gene" for homosexuality, rather that the hormones in our bodies require a certain kind of balance in order to keep things in order, and that balance contributes significantly to our expressions of masculinity and femininity.
> 
> *I do believe that for some people, telling them that because they are believers that God will change their homosexuality is like telling someone who's schizophrenic that God did not intend that they be born that way and that through faith, God will heal their mind.  The Lord certainly does such things, but sometimes he does not, and it's a burden that some believers have to bear.  *
> 
> ...


\
To the bolded, that's why I presented my argument about it.  It's what one does, not how one feels on the inside.  It's the actions.  That redemption can preserve someone from committing a disordered act not in alliance with G-d's will for mankind.  It's not necessarily the homosexual mindset (inclination) that needs to be "redeemed," it's the desire to act it out.  For most, the mindset will remain.  There are many people who have tried to repress their sexuality and married the opposite sex..only to end up hurting their families in the end.  I think this must be the toughest experience known to man.


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## alexstin (May 30, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> @ the bolded, we have to very, very careful with this.  It's a prelude to justify homosexuality and/or feelings.   The mind is a breeding ground and 'thoughts' and feelings do and can manifest themselves if not checked or understood.   This same principle can be applied to those who may think of harming others.  The thoughts are there, but if not checked can and most likely lead to the action itsself when a motivation to do so presents itsself.
> 
> 
> _For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
> ...



Agreed. As a man thinks in his heart, so is he. Is it adultery(or fill in the blank with anything else) when you look on a man with lustful thoughts or when you act on it? Jesus raised the bar when He said it's the thought. Ouch!


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (May 30, 2009)

What about the love mechanism?  What they feel inside as opposed to what they might and might not feel sexually toward a person?  There is possibility to love another of the same sex or fall in love with them much in the same way one falls in love with some of the opposite sex...and sex and lust (I'm talking about desiring physicality) is not at all in the equation.  Is that sin?


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## alexstin (May 30, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> What about the love mechanism?  What they feel inside as opposed to what they might and might not feel sexually toward a person?  *There is possibility to love another of the same sex or fall in love with them much in the same way one falls in love with some of the opposite sex...and sex is not at all in the equation.*  Is that sin?



I'm not understanding. How could sex NOT be in the equation if you fall in love with someone? Though you may not be having sex, would there not be a thought, or two about what it would be like to be intimate with that person? Loving someone and falling in love are two very different things. IMO, falling in love would be an eros type of love. I've had friends of the same sex that I loved but I was definitely not in love with them.


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## chicacanella (May 30, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> So much of our understanding of our sexuality is chemical--a physical thing, not only spiritual, mental, and emotional. That is not the same as saying that there's a "gene" for homosexuality, rather that the hormones in our bodies require a certain kind of balance in order to keep things in order, and that balance contributes significantly to our expressions of masculinity and femininity.
> 
> *I do believe that for some people, telling them that because they are believers that God will change their homosexuality is like telling someone who's schizophrenic that God did not intend that they be born that way and that through faith, God will heal their mind. The Lord certainly does such things, but sometimes he does not, and it's a burden that some believers have to bear.*
> 
> ...


 

*If any of you have the chance and I recommend it for every devout Christian, read Nikki Jourdans, "The Demon Hit-List." We forget that we are in a spiritual battle and yes, many times the enemy will use some sort of sexual or physical abuse to introduce someone into a certain sin. But this is what the enemy will use to deter someone from being in God's will:* *ANYTHING THAT WILL WORK!  This is what confuses some people that may say, "Well, I grew up in the best of households," yet still they are in the world and the enemy uses this in the best way he can.  *

*Now, I am not sure I understand your quote specifically about schizophrenic because it is not in God's will. Jesus went throughout towns healing people with such conditions and unless that person hears a Word from God, saying I will not heal you from bipolarism or any other mental condition they should keep striving for their healing. What does it mean to me when Prophet Isaiah said, "and by Jesus stripes we are healed?" It means that He was inspired by God to write this and I can't find anything in the bible saying that God's glory can not be manifested throughSchizophrenic or as the bible calls it, "lunacy."*

*I do believe that for some people, telling them that because they are believers that God will change their homosexuality is like telling someone who's schizophrenic that God did not intend that they be born that way and that through faith, God will heal their mind. The Lord certainly does such things, but sometimes he does not, and it's a burden that some believers have to bear."*


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## chicacanella (May 30, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> @ the bolded, we have to very, very careful with this. It's a prelude to justify homosexuality and/or feelings. The mind is a breeding ground and 'thoughts' and feelings do and can manifest themselves if not checked or understood. This same principle can be applied to those who may think of harming others. The thoughts are there, but if not checked can and most likely lead to the action itsself when a motivation to do so presents itsself.
> 
> With gays, this is what is known as SSA (same sex attraction, thoughts and feeling of such) and there are many, many factors in life which cause it. Persons with SSA need the support of those qualified, who help them to not only disarm such feelings and attractions, but to also understand them and the root cause that addresses them personally.
> 
> ...


 

*I definitely agree with you. With every sinful action, it first started in the mind. This is where the devil starts with and have we ever heard the saying when speaking about men who play with women, "He's got her mind and if he's got that, he doesn't need anything else." But it's true, once your mind has a yolk on it, your actions will follow. Think about it, with every sinful action you did, didn't it first start with you not casting down thoughts in your mind and allowing them to rise up, then ultimately if not checked you will act on them. Battle of the Mindfield by Joyce Meyers is a good book and if you guys want me to post some of it I will.*

* Romans 12:1 says, *

*" 1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual[a] act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will."*


*This is why it is so important for Christians to understand how to cast down thoughts and imaginations, young and old. I find that for younger Christians, when Satan or the environment may introduce a thought of fornication or lust that they instantly and continuously have to cast that thought down and speak it aloud. Verbally say, "I cast down that thought or imagination and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God and I bring that thought into capitivity in obedience of Jesus Christ."  This, coupled with prayer, fasting, filling on the Word and just submitting yourself to God's spirit is what helps us as Christians continually go from glory to glory. That's why some people say, "Girl, you haven't had sex in 10 years?" And they don't understand that most likely, that single women had strong urges in the beginning to act out on what was in their mind but as they continuely submitt themselves it no longer becomes an issue. It's a process.*


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (May 31, 2009)

alexstin said:


> I'm not understanding. How could sex NOT be in the equation if you fall in love with someone? Though you may not be having sex, would there not be a thought, or two about what it would be like to be intimate with that person? Loving someone and falling in love are two very different things. IMO, falling in love would be an eros type of love. I've had friends of the same sex that I loved but I was definitely not in love with them.




Everytime a woman falls in love with a man and she's a chaste religious woman, is she thinking lustfully?  Nope.  Soul connection, deeper than friendship, it is that point where the soul finds it's mate.  My point is getting at whether it's considered a sin to BE homosexual...not acting upon it.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (May 31, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> The sin isn't the attraction or inclination, it's the indulgence in the feelings.  So, a gay person who feels that they've always been that way doesn't need to repent of any sin for _feeling_ a certain way since they were young.  But they would need to reject the attraction and the feelings and not act on them.




I don't think the attraction and feelings can be eliminated (for most) because that then becomes the cross they bear...not to act upon them.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (May 31, 2009)

chicacanella said:


> *This is why it is so important for Christians to understand how to cast down thoughts and imaginations, young and old.** I find that for younger Christians, when Satan or the environment may introduce a thought of fornication or lust that they instantly and continuously have to cast that thought down and speak it aloud. *




That, I comprehend and agree with.  I'm not talking, though, about people who engage in lustful thoughts about fulfilling sexual fantasies.  I think there's a kind of disconnect in society about how gay people are put together.  Folks don't comprehend...and it's complex.  And about attraction in general, I know that when I'm attracted to someone, I'm not thinking about having sex with them. I'm attracted to their soul or something about them.  Couldn't gays be this way?  This society *is* oversexed enough for us to automatically think along these lines because the average person's behavior is to jump into bed, religious or not.


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## msa (May 31, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> The sin isn't the attraction or inclination, it's the indulgence in the feelings.  So, a gay person who feels that they've always been that way doesn't need to repent of any sin for _feeling_ a certain way since they were young.  But they would need to reject the attraction and the feelings and not act on them.



That make sense to me but...



alexstin said:


> Agreed. As a man thinks in his heart, so is he. Is it adultery(or fill in the blank with anything else) when you look on a man with lustful thoughts or when you act on it? *Jesus raised the bar when He said it's the thought. *Ouch!



From what I understand, the bold is true. The sin is in the thought. 

And, if the sin is in the thought then someone who has had same sex attraction/thoughts since their earliest memories has been sinning since the age of 2 or 3 or 4 or 5. Before they even truly know what sin (or sexuality) is and before the age of accountability. At that point, whose sin is it? Is it the child's? Is it the parent's because they are accountable for the child? 

And to have those feelings so early, with no trauma or abuse or even being taught about sexuality, makes me think that homosexuality is biologically based. (Which doesn't seem to go against earlier translations of the bible, but I haven't done enough research on it to say for sure).

Anyway, good conversation. I'm learning a lot.


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## Shimmie (May 31, 2009)

chicacanella said:


> *I definitely agree with you. With every sinful action, it first started in the mind. This is where the devil starts with and have we ever heard the saying when speaking about men who play with women, "He's got her mind and if he's got that, he doesn't need anything else." But it's true, once your mind has a yolk on it, your actions will follow. Think about it, with every sinful action you did, didn't it first start with you not casting down thoughts in your mind and allowing them to rise up, then ultimately if not checked you will act on them. Battle of the Mindfield by Joyce Meyers is a good book and if you guys want me to post some of it I will.*
> 
> *Romans 12:1 says, *
> 
> ...


 
Exactly Chica!  You and Pastor Alexstin are totally on point with this. 

Right now the gay agenda is working the minds of our children in the school system.  

And why?  Because it's the mind that determines and motivates the actions and decisions we make.   

The media does this with marketing each and every moment of the day.  With the news, which programs the mindset of how we should or should not feel or think about any given issue of life of any given day.

The mind games are used in elections... politricks.   The most Perfect example was the mindset that was pitted against President Obama.  Setting the minds against him but using the age old 'color issues'.  All in the mind to set the minds of voters to vote or not vote for him.

The mind is what gears and motivates us to do anything that we choose to do in life.  The mind determines 'attractions' and distractions; desires and undesirables.  

This forum is Totally communicated by way of what on 'OUR' Minds!    And what's in the mind permeates into the hearts and can before rooted and grounded as such of which/what has been planted. 

God's word tells us to be careful for nothing (do not ignore neither become lax); to guard our hearts and minds in Christ Jesus...

_Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. _

_And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your *HEARTS AND MINDS* through Christ Jesus. _

_Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. _

_Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you. _

_Phillipians 4:6-9_

To God be the glory.  We are not slaves to our minds, but vessels as unto the Lord, bearing the full armour of God.  We have the mind of Christ (Helmet of Salvation) and the heart of God the Father (Breastplate of Righteousness).  The Word of God (the sword of the Spirit -- a two edged sword which cuts assunder), His Virtue (our loins are girded about with truth and with chasity), God's Path of Righteousness and the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us into all truth and wisdom which God so liberally gives unto us (our feet are shod with the preparation of peace).

Did I miss one?     I wrote this from my 'sleepy' mind  

Sweet sleep precious angels and sisters. Thank you for putting up with me and my fire.


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## chicacanella (May 31, 2009)

msa said:


> That make sense to me but...
> From what I understand, the bold is true. The sin is in the thought.
> 
> And, if the sin is in the thought then someone who has had same sex attraction/thoughts since their earliest memories has been sinning since the age of 2 or 3 or 4 or 5. Before they even truly know what sin (or sexuality) is and before the age of accountability. At that point, whose sin is it? Is it the child's? Is it the parent's because they are accountable for the child?
> ...


 
*In this flesh, as a Christian I can explain that nothing is good when it is being led by the flesh. So, no matter what the age we as Christians must be led by the spirit. This is another tactic that the enemy uses is to keep as many people as possible from being redeemed and as a result they are led by their flesh and him. There are children all around the world, for some reason or not that are more susceptible to entertaining certain sins. Do you think the enemy is going to look at a little 2-year-old and say, "Oh no! He's just two years old...I wouldn't possibly tell him to do such a thing!" Now, it may have just started simply the environment combined with the flesh and simply not knowing what is wrong, but after a certain point Satan is going to catch on because the thoughts meandering/desires left uncheck will turn into actions and anything unholy attracts Satan to come in and destroy even more. Remember the scripture that says he walks around like a roaring Lion seeking whom he can devour?*

*Msa, I really hope you understand that regardless of what someone feels doesn't make it right...this is a spiritual battle and souls are being lost to hell everyday. There are children at this moment who've always had the urge and desire to kill or mutilate or harm someone else. Now, Satan would come along and say, "Well, those sins hurt someone else," but should God not be brought into the picture when we speak of sinning. How can one declare something to be a sin or not a sin or diminish certain sins as a Christian w.out taking into consideration the reason they consider the act a sin? It's because God has declared it a sin and knows the effects of the acts. Simply put, just because someone feels or has a desire from a young age doesn't make it right.*

*For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. Romans 7:18*

*When you are led of the flesh, nothing is good. BUT when you are led by the spirit, there is no condemnation in Jesus Christ. This may be hard for some to understand so I don't mind coming back and explaining. All scripture should be taken in context along with guidance from The Holy Spirit.*

*Life Through the Spirit - Romans 8*

*1*Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] *2*because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. *3*For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d] *4*in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. 
*5*Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. *6*The mind of sinful man[e] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; *7*the sinful mind[f] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. *8*Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. 


Shimmie said:


> Exactly Chica! You and Pastor Alexstin are totally on point with this.
> 
> Right now the gay agenda is working the minds of our children in the school system.
> 
> ...


 

*Shimmie, you are so right. Look at how many programs on television now promote sinful activity. People call wicked good and good, wicked. I remember when I was listening to some song last year before I really understood what type of music was in order for me as a follower of Christ. Being that I'm in pr, I see how they slip stuff in so slyly that after a while people become used to it. *

*But I always go head to toe. *

*Helmet of salvation - Guard your gates and watch what you let in your mind, what you entertain so your helmet won't be all jacked up in the spiritual realm. I remember reading a testimony one time but this guy was telling how he could read the minds of non-Christians but couldn't do so with one girl. And he said somethin about it having to do with her helmet of salvation so ladies, we do not know everything that happens in the spiritual realm which is why we need to be protected at all times.*

*Breastplate of Righteousness - watching your heart, your actions and submitting yourself to God.*

*Shield of faith - Do you have a small shield or a little shield cause' the enemy is going to try and attack you but if your faith is small, start praying for more cause the fiery darts are coming.*

*Belt of Truth - Stop ya' lying cause your belt of truth may be literally falling off in the spiritual realm. If you can't say the truth, just refrain from talking or change the subject.*

*Shoes of Peace from the Gospel - Wherever you go, you have peace that comes from the good news of being redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ, you can have the peace that passeth all understanding when you fully dwell and marinate in the things of God, the Gospel.*

*The Sword of the spirit - The Word of God which is active, quick, powerful sharper than any two-edged sword. Hebrews 4:12. Our only defensive weapon.*


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## aribell (May 31, 2009)

chicacanella said:


> *Now, I am not sure I understand your quote specifically about schizophrenic because it is not in God's will. Jesus went throughout towns healing people with such conditions and unless that person hears a Word from God, saying I will not heal you from bipolarism or any other mental condition they should keep striving for their healing. What does it mean to me when Prophet Isaiah said, "and by Jesus stripes we are healed?" It means that He was inspired by God to write this and I can't find anything in the bible saying that God's glory can not be manifested throughSchizophrenic or as the bible calls it, "lunacy." *




God's power can and will be manifested in_ any way_ that He chooses to manifest it.  He most certainly can and has healed people of illnesses and bondages of all sorts, and yes, such healing is what we all seek.  But not every struggle is a purely spiritual one, not every struggle is one that can be conquered by "casting down every thought that exalts itself against Christ" and His ways.  If God were going to heal everyone of every infirmity, of every illness, of every struggle, then there would be no truly faithful Christians ever dying of sickness, no Christians who are mentally ill, and certainly no Christians continually struggling with a besetting sin.

Paul specifically said that he asked the Lord on three occassions to take his burden away (whatever it was) and the Lord said No, explicitly, and that His grace is sufficient for Paul.  Ultimately, my point was that 1) there is a difference between spiritual battles that have to do with our sanctification and our obedience to Christ and growing therein, and 2) our physical infirmities and illnesses that need Christ's healing beyond any level of faith, obedience, or wisdom that we could ever possess.  We know that so long as we seek God, He will continue to sanctify us (category 1), but He may or may not choose to heal us physically (#2).

There's reason to see _at least some_ homosexuals, more specifically the transgendered, as those possibly having a physical chemical problem rather than just an emotional/spiritual one that needs to be conquered.  No, there isn't a consensus on that, but Christians don't have any greater insight into _why_ gay people are attracted to the same sex than non-Christians do.  What we know is that it is wrong to engage in sexual activity with people of the same sex and to indulge those feelings.  But if we insist on promoting a message that basically says, "If only you have faith enough, if only you try hard enough, if only you work through your issues, God will change you," we will end up alienating and discouraging many gay Christians who have not experienced such healing.  It is enough if they commit themselves to living God's word and commands, and in so doing, He will manifest His will and glory in them in the way He sees fit, and in His time.    

[/quote]



GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> *Everytime a woman falls in love with a man and she's a chaste religious woman, is she thinking lustfully?* *Nope.* Soul connection, deeper than friendship, it is that point where the soul finds it's mate. My point is getting at whether it's considered a sin to BE homosexual...not acting upon it.


 


msa said:


> ...The sin is in the thought.
> 
> And, if the sin is in the thought then someone who has had same sex attraction/thoughts since their earliest memories has been sinning since the age of 2 or 3 or 4 or 5. Before they even truly know what sin (or sexuality) is and before the age of accountability. At that point, whose sin is it? Is it the child's? Is it the parent's because they are accountable for the child?


 
Jesus said that whenever a man looks upon a woman _lustfully _that he has sinned, He didn't say whenever a man is attracted to a woman that he has sinned.  Those are completely different things.   Yes, the sin is in the thought, but it's the fact that the thought is lustful, not that there's a sexual attraction there.  

As far as homosexuals are concerned, simply having a feeling of attraction towards the same sex, unasked for, unacted upon, is not a sin.  If a gay person is going around entertaining lustful thoughts toward people (of the same or opposite sex), then yes, they have sinned.  As far as toddlers are concerned, children "sin" all the time.  They act selfishly, seek revenge, are mean to other kids, disobey their parents, lie.  They know no better and are just doing what is in them to do.  If a small child is attracted to the same sex or wants to dress up like the opposite sex and somehow acts on those desires (the sexuality of very small children is prob. not well developed enough to "lust" anyway), then that might be a sin.  But it's no more a sin than any of the other "sins" that they have committed in being a child.


ETA:  _BTW, I completely understand the danger of the homosexual agenda in our country today, and I genuinely fear for the upcoming generation.  My brother is only 10 years old and I pray so much for the Lord to protect his mind and spirit from all the evil being poured into it, especially as even at his young age, he already has two friends that come from "two mom" families.  Yes, there is a very real and serious spiritual battle being waged here.  Yes, the Lord is mighty and powerful to save.  But we as Christians can tend to open our mouths and say too much, more than what is necessary for the preaching of the Gospel and hurt people thereby.  We have to make sure that we're not adding things that God hasn't said and putting additional burdens on people. _


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## Shimmie (Jun 1, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> [/color][/b]
> 
> God's power can and will be manifested in_ any way_ that He chooses to manifest it. He most certainly can and has healed people of illnesses and bondages of all sorts, and yes, such healing is what we all seek. But not every struggle is a purely spiritual one, not every struggle is one that can be conquered by "casting down every thought that exalts itself against Christ" and His ways. If God were going to heal everyone of every infirmity, of every illness, of every struggle, then there would be no truly faithful Christians ever dying of sickness, no Christians who are mentally ill, and certainly no Christians continually struggling with a besetting sin.
> 
> ...


 
What's been added?


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## aribell (Jun 1, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> What's been added?


 
Some posts said that homosexual attraction itself is sinful, which I believe to go beyond Scripture.  Also, I thought some of the posts were implying that all homosexuals can expect to be changed through faith and rescued from their same sex attraction if they embrace the Gospel and reject the thoughts, and I don't think that's always the case.  

Sometimes spiritual victories take time, but I said added because God only requires our obedience and if Christians preach a message that basically says that someone's same sex attraction is itself a sin, a gay Christian who even after committing himself to chastity and still has these feelings will either have to believe that he is not really saved or isn't fighting against it hard enough.  I listened to the testimony of a gay Christian who has embraced the Gospel and follows it, and he clearly admitted that, no, he is not now attracted to women.

It's so common to hear gay people say that before coming out, they had already been fighting and fighting their feelings.  Dating the opposite sex, trying to act more masculine or feminine, rejecting anything homosexual.  Did they have the power of Christ?  No, but they weren't accepting the thoughts, either.  

That's one of the main obstacles that gay people have with accepting the Gospel, not just that Christians are saying that they're doing something wrong, but when Christians act like being attracted to the same sex is like choosing to cheat on one's spouse, choosing to develop an alcohol or drug habit, choosing to rebel against God's ways.  

On the whole, gay people feel that Christians have no clue where they're coming from and I think that's a big reason why they have completely shut out the Christian community.  I don't disagree with anything that's been said about the power of God to change or the fact that every believer must continually strive to be submitted to the truth.  I just don't think that the crux of our message to gay people should be on how to stop being attracted to the opposite sex.  I think they're tired of being talked to like their sin is worse than everyone else's and that they are the evil that's corrupting society.  I don't think we mean to come off that way at all, but we definitely do.


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## ThePerfectScore (Jun 1, 2009)

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I said:


> Warning, this is a controversial thread:
> 
> 
> What is gayness in G-d's world?  Are there those born gay or those who, at some point, chose the gay lifestyle?  Are there, in fact, people who are born with the tendancy according to what scripture says?  There is also the question of the Apostle Paul possibly being gay...struggling with that tendancy.  I don't know if it's true, but I'd think that he must have struggled with his physical sexual addictions for a lifetime, until the end.  Maybe they never went away...and he knew Jesus like his brother.  Why?  Scriptures?  Opinions?  Apologetics?



These are interesting question you pose?... I have my opinion, but I'd like to see how "Christians" think about this based on evidence from the Bible. I put Christians in quotes b/c I am Christian, but I do not necessarily agree what people would consider Traditional Christian beliefs. But I would LOVE to hear what religious people feel on this subject and not just assume I know.


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## empressaja (Jun 1, 2009)

I believe that God can do the impossible. So yes a person who is homosexual can be changed internally. But I have a question.

Why do we say that a person is gay is the display behaviors linked to the opposite gender? Like saying a little boy is gay. Being a homosexual or lesbian means that you are attractred to the same sex. How can we say a little boy is gay because he wants to wear girls clothes it seems like we are confusing gender  identity issues with sexual attraction issues.


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## GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I (Jun 1, 2009)

ThePerfectScore said:


> These are interesting question you pose?... I have my opinion, but I'd like to see how "Christians" think about this based on evidence from the Bible. I put Christians in quotes b/c I am Christian, but I do not necessarily agree what people would consider Traditional Christian beliefs. But I would LOVE to hear what religious people feel on this subject and not just assume I know.




I thought it was interesting as well, esp. the varying interpretations of the scriptures from a variety of people from different "christian" walks.  Check out Shimmie's thread first. This one was a spinoff of that one.  But her thread is very good.


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## chicacanella (Jun 3, 2009)

*Hi Nicole,*

*it took me some time to come back because I was waiting on The Holy Spirit's guidance and affirmation of my answer and this is what I received. I took it to the Lord in prayer with tongues and The Holy Spirit has affirmed these scriptures. I would only ask that you all go into deep prayer also. My response is in purple.*


God's power can and will be manifested in_ any way_ that He chooses to manifest it. He most certainly can and has healed people of illnesses and bondages of all sorts, and yes, such healing is what we all seek. But not every struggle is a purely spiritual one, not every struggle is one that can be conquered by "casting down every thought that exalts itself against Christ" and His ways. If God were going to heal everyone of every infirmity, of every illness, of every struggle, then there would be no truly faithful Christians ever dying of sickness, no Christians who are mentally ill, and certainly no Christians continually struggling with a besetting sin.

*You are totally correct. God chooses to manifest His power when He sees fit but this is the scripture The Holy Spirit led me to:*

*<H3>1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (New King James Version)*

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

</H3>* However, there is no place in scripture that says those mentally ill, blind, crippled, had cancer on earth will not inherit the kingdom of God. So, this is just a difference between being able to be healed and those who are not healed; this is also a difference between being able to enter the kingdom of God and not enter the kindgom of God. *

*There may be individuals whom God allows to die of Cancer or another ailment but such individuals do not have anything preventing them from entering the kingdom of heaven. It is God's will that every man be saved but this will not happen for all.*

*"3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2. The scripture plainly spells out that there are some who will not inherit the kingdom of God. *

*Now, we have these scriptures which explain a bit more of what unrighteousness incase some may not know.*

Romans 6:12-14 ‘*As the result, don’t allow sin to rule your mortal bodies and don’t obey its desires.* Nor should you offer your body parts as unrighteous weapons of sin. Rather, offer yourselves to God as someone who has been raised from the dead, and [offer] your body parts to God as weapons of righteousness. So, sin must not be your master, because you aren’t under Law, but under [God’s] kindness.’</SPAN>

*Perhaps you didn't catch this first bolded part of the scripture. Most would look at it (as I first did) but The Holy Spirit told me to read it again and it says not to "allow sin to rule your mortal bodies and don't obey it's desires." I first thought it meant through actions but as I read it again, I see that the second sentence says, "nor should you offer your body parts," meaning that the first sentence was speaking about simply not sinning with your body parts but desires. So, we tend to think of sin as something we can pin point and physically with our bodies do such as gossiping, over indulging in food or alcohol, fornicating. But obeying it's desires by even looking or indulging in thoughts is allowing sin to rule over your body.*

Paul specifically said that he asked the Lord on three occassions to take his burden away (whatever it was) and the Lord said No, explicitly, and that His grace is sufficient for Paul. 
*Now, here is an indepth explanation of Paul's thorn from Andrew Wommack, a highly credible minister but as always take it with prayer:*

_"And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the *messenger of Satan* to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure...2 Corinthians 12._


Ultimately, my point was that 1) there is a difference between spiritual battles that have to do with our sanctification and our obedience to Christ and growing therein, and 2) our physical infirmities and illnesses that need Christ's healing beyond any level of faith, obedience, or wisdom that we could ever possess. We know that so long as we seek God, He will continue to sanctify us (category 1), but He may or may not choose to heal us physically (#2).

*Nicole, how can anything we face on earth be seperated from our sanctification, obedience in growing with Christ? Everything we do on this earth and what we deal with has to do with our relationship with God and the factors mentioned above along with other factors. You mentioned Paul, but as stated in the Wommack commentary, his infirmities were brought on by the enemy or were attacks because of the glorious revelation he received from God. And as Wommack commented, I do believe many Christians may attempt to hide behind this scripture when they may not have fully submitted themself to God on whatever issue they may be dealing with. Nothing Paul went through was unrighteous or prevented Him from entering the kingdom of God upon death. *

*Again, when you speak of God not choosing to heal someone physically I believe this is highly possible BUT when that healing prevents the person from entering His kingdom then He will heal them. The scriptures spell out plainly who will not inherit the kingdom of God, so let's say there is a homosexual who asks God for healing. It would be comparing apples and oranges to say, "God is not going to heal them because he didn't heal the person with cancer." Yet scriptures never spoke of a person with cancer not entering his kingdom but they have spoke of fornicators, adulterers and others not. *


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## chicacanella (Jun 3, 2009)

There's reason to see _at least some_ homosexuals, more specifically the transgendered, as those possibly having a physical chemical problem rather than just an emotional/spiritual one that needs to be conquered. 

*It may be a physical or chemical brain problem for some just as there may be chemical imbalances for many cancer patients BUT again, the scriptures speak on who will and will not inherit the kingdom of God. So, whatever the issue causing the sin it is God's will that every man be saved, saved as in snatched from hell and not inheriting His Kingdom. And if that is His will, then God is going to make sure that a person seeking deliverance will be able to inherit His kingdom and know that the scriptures speak on who will not inherit His kingdom.*

No, there isn't a consensus on that, but Christians don't have any greater insight into _why_ gay people are attracted to the same sex than non-Christians do. 
*It could be a combination of things but what is most important to me is what the scriptures say about who will and will not inherit the kingdom of God.*
What we know is that it is wrong to engage in sexual activity with people of the same sex and to indulge those feelings. But if we insist on promoting a message that basically says, "If only you have faith enough, if only you try hard enough, if only you work through your issues, God will change you," we will end up alienating and discouraging many gay Christians who have not experienced such healing. 
*Now, that is the gist of the message because what it really involves is faith but to tell them that God will not heal them or bring them to a point where they are no longer homosexual is basically saying that they will not inherit the kingdom of God and that isn't true. God will bring them to a point where they will be able to inherit the kingdom of God and no longer be homosexual and the reason people keep speaking on faith because that is what is needed in ANY struggle we face. If the person is seeking God, submitting themselves to His spirit and resisiting the devil, God will draw closer to them. This is for anyone, not just homosexual. And I don't understand what is wrong with saying have faith in God no matter what just because someone hasn't experienced healing in what they perceive to be "their" timing. Would it be better to say, "Don't have faith." In situations where the person is totally submitting themselves to God spirit, the message is to keep the faith and keep doing what they are doing. The only way that can alienate someone is if they get so discouraged and the enemy starts to whisper in their ear. People tell other Christians all the time to keep the faith and keep doing what you are doing when their gas is about to be turned off, or their son is about to go to prison. Yes, these people may get so discouraged and stop coming around but why blame the people who are trying to encourage them. It's not their fault.*
It is enough if they commit themselves to living God's word and commands, and in so doing, He will manifest His will and glory in them in the way He sees fit, and in His time. 
*Yes, you are right. It is in His timing but a person can't have said, "I don't want to be an alcoholic anymore," 10 years ago and still go out getting drunk every night now just like they did back then. That's not progress.*
[/quote]

Jesus said that whenever a man looks upon a woman _lustfully _that he has sinned, He didn't say whenever a man is attracted to a woman that he has sinned. Those are completely different things. Yes, the sin is in the thought, but it's the fact that the thought is lustful, not that there's a sexual attraction there. 

*Nicole, you are taking what Jesus spoke about heterosexual attraction and trying to apply it to homosexual attraction and it's comparing apples and oranges. *

As far as homosexuals are concerned, simply having a feeling of attraction towards the same sex, unasked for, unacted upon, is not a sin. If a gay person is going around entertaining lustful thoughts toward people (of the same or opposite sex), then yes, they have sinned. As far as toddlers are concerned, children "sin" all the time. They act selfishly, seek revenge, are mean to other kids, disobey their parents, lie. They know no better and are just doing what is in them to do. If a small child is attracted to the same sex or wants to dress up like the opposite sex and somehow acts on those desires (the sexuality of very small children is prob. not well developed enough to "lust" anyway), then that might be a sin. But it's no more a sin than any of the other "sins" that they have committed in being a child.

*Knowing who God is, I know that it is NOT in His will for men to be sexually attracted to other men and that it is a sin. See Mark 7:21. I don't see how anyone knowing and looking at His creation can see this to be untrue. God wants to bring them to the point where they are not anymore so they will inherit His kingdom.And yes, children can and do sin. It's not a point of them knowing whether it is right or wrong to make it sin because you train up a child in the way they should go and when they are old they will not depart from it. So, just because a young child is brought up to committ incest with their brothers or sisters means it isn't a sin simply cause they don't know? I'm saying that just because someone doesn't know it's not a sin doesn't mean it's not a sin. And this is how Satan trys to make it seem harmless by using little children and saying, "Well, their so innocent, they wouldn't know so doesn't that mean it's not a sin?" BUT they are still human. Man, Woman, boy or girl. And I wanted to leave with this scripture:*

*As a man thinketh in His heart, so is He. Proverbs 23:7*


*9 The heart is deceitful above all things *
*and beyond cure. *
*Who can understand it? **10 "I the LORD search the heart *
*and examine the mind, *
*to reward a man according to his conduct, *
*according to what his deeds deserve."*
*Jeremiah 17:9*

*20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' " Mark 7:21*


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## Crown (Jun 3, 2009)

I did not read all, but just to answer the question : Yes!
Internal change occurs through all the Bible.
For bad :
Adam, Eve, serpent, Cain, fig tree (Mark 11 :  13-14, 20-26)…
For good :
Abraham and Sarah, Elisabeth and Zacharias, Lazarus (from death to life), psychotic (Mat. 8 : 28-34), paralytic (Mat. 9 : 1-8), possessed (Acts 16 : 16-18)…

I don't believe it is something encrypted in their body like the gender; but, it comes from inside because it is a sin.
 
Psalm 139:14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

Mark 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

Psalm 117:1 O praise the LORD, all ye nations: praise him, all ye people. 
117:2 For his merciful kindness is great toward us: and the truth of the LORD endureth for ever. Praise ye the LORD.


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## Evolving78 (Jun 4, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> The sin isn't the attraction or inclination, it's the indulgence in the feelings.  So, a gay person who feels that they've always been that way doesn't need to repent of any sin for _feeling_ a certain way since they were young.  But they would need to reject the attraction and the feelings and not act on them.



i agree.  i thought it was the act of homosexual behavior that was the sin that one would need to repent for.  now asking God to remove or be delivered from those feelings is something else?  if it is something that one has to suppress or struggle with, i don't believe they will not be saved, it is just that cross they have to bear.


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## Evolving78 (Jun 4, 2009)

As far as homosexuals are concerned, simply having a feeling of attraction towards the same sex, unasked for, unacted upon, is not a sin. If a gay person is going around entertaining lustful thoughts toward people (of the same or opposite sex), then yes, they have sinned. As far as toddlers are concerned, children "sin" all the time. They act selfishly, seek revenge, are mean to other kids, disobey their parents, lie. They know no better and are just doing what is in them to do. If a small child is attracted to the same sex or wants to dress up like the opposite sex and somehow acts on those desires (the sexuality of very small children is prob. not well developed enough to "lust" anyway), then that might be a sin. But it's no more a sin than any of the other "sins" that they have committed in being a child.

Knowing who God is, I know that it is NOT in His will for men to be sexually attracted to other men and that it is a sin. See Mark 7:21. I don't see how anyone knowing and looking at His creation can see this to be untrue. God wants to bring them to the point where they are not anymore so they will inherit His kingdom.And yes, children can and do sin. It's not a point of them knowing whether it is right or wrong to make it sin because you train up a child in the way they should go and when they are old they will not depart from it. So, just because a young child is brought up to committ incest with their brothers or sisters means it isn't a sin simply cause they don't know? I'm saying that just because someone doesn't know it's not a sin doesn't mean it's not a sin. And this is how Satan trys to make it seem harmless by using little children and saying, "Well, their so innocent, they wouldn't know so doesn't that mean it's not a sin?" BUT they are still human. Man, Woman, boy or girl. And I wanted to leave with this scripture:
*As a man thinketh in His heart, so is He. Proverbs 23:7*


*9 The heart is deceitful above all things *


*and beyond cure. *
*Who can understand it? **10 "I the LORD search the heart *
*and examine the mind, *
*to reward a man according to his conduct, *
*according to what his deeds deserve."*
*Jeremiah 17:9*

*20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' " Mark 7:21*[/QUOTE]

but then, we are all unclean and have to ask for forgiveness and repent daily.  we all have to take up our cross.  i thought if one was blind to the faith or not brought up in it, then how can one know if he/she has committed sin?  i thought because of their ignorance, God would show pity?
*Luke 12:41-48 (King James Version)

 41Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?

 42And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

 43Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

 44Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

 45But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

 46The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

 47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

 48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more*


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## Nefertiti0906 (Jun 4, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> Some posts said that homosexual attraction itself is sinful, which I believe to go beyond Scripture.  Also, I thought some of the posts were implying that all homosexuals can expect to be changed through faith and rescued from their same sex attraction if they embrace the Gospel and reject the thoughts, and I don't think that's always the case.
> 
> *Sometimes spiritual victories take time, but I said added because God only requires our obedience and if Christians preach a message that basically says that someone's same sex attraction is itself a sin, a gay Christian who even after committing himself to chastity and still has these feelings will either have to believe that he is not really saved or isn't fighting against it hard enough.  I listened to the testimony of a gay Christian who has embraced the Gospel and follows it, and he clearly admitted that, no, he is not now attracted to women.*
> 
> ...



Thank you for this post, especially the bolded.  I also know of a gay Christian who loves the Lord with all of his heart.  He has been through so much mentally and emotionally to get rid "of this sin" before coming to terms that it's who he is.  That's why my stance is now that it's not in our place to judge them.  Only God knows what they've been through or are currently going through.


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## aribell (Jun 4, 2009)

In general response I would just say that no one can know what is going on in another person's heart or what God is doing in them. 

Regarding 1 Corinthians 6:9, I noticed that after "homosexuals" the King James quote you cited includes a note. I don't know what yours says, but my English Standard Version reads thus: *"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor theives...will inherit the kingdom of God." *After "practice homosexuality" the ESV includes a note as well. It says: "The two Greek terms translated by the phrase [practice homosexuality] refer to the passive and active partners in consensual homosexual _acts_." 

It's known by scholars that there has not, throughout the ages and various Bible translations, been a consistent use of words referring to homosexual acts and other kinds of sexual deviation. What is clearly known is that any kind of sex except for that between a married man and a married woman is immoral and forbidden.  This phenomenon of "I've always felt different," is simply not addressed in Scripture.  

I don't have any more Bibles or study materials on me at the moment to refer to, but from general knowledge I can say that this is consistent with the way that the Bible on the whole approaches sexual immorality--it is always about the act (or _lustful_ thoughts inclined toward the act). You do not see the Bible addressing men or women who "feel attracted to" the same sex or, much more confusingly, those who feel like they were born in the wrong body (btw: someone asked why these two groups are being talked about together, and it's because they have joined together and believe their cause to be the same, which is why it's the LGBT-lesbian, gay, bi-sexual, transgendered community. And at the end of the day, I think it's a part of the same issue, but that's something else entirely.)

So, because it appears that "homosexuals" in the King James does not refer to homosexuals as we are using the term in this conversation, I don't believe that the point that I made goes against Scripture. 

And if you think about it, if you have a gay Christian in front of you, saying that he or she rejects those feelings, lives chastely, etc., and no, she has not been redeemed from that attraction, is the proper response really to tell him or her that they will not enter the kingdom of heaven as a result? It may very well be God's will to heal every single gay Christian before they pass. However, can I come and pass judgment on the status of their sanctification when they are obeying God's laws? Does the fact that I still sin disqualify _me_ from the Kingdom of Heaven? 

Why would God put homosexuals in a separate group from the rest of us? We as the church have such grace and understanding for people having sex in the church when they "slip up,"  people getting divorced left and right, cheating, drinking too much on Saturday night...yeah, we say it's wrong, might even preach against it, but we're not questioning anyone's salvation over it.  And everyone _else_ can sin and repent and be forgiven, but not gay people...the church acts like if _they_ still struggle with their sin that theirs is unforgivable.  Even if a gay person doesn't fornicate, cheat, engage in debauchery in general on Saturday night, _they're_ the ones that won't enter God's Kingdom?  Because they aren't attracted to the opposite sex yet?  There was never a commandment to be "attracted" to anyone for them to violate in the first place.  Chica, this isn't directed toward you, but all of this simply isn't adding up in our church culture. 

Usually I find myself on the other side of this argument, but I just know too many people seriously offended (and hindered spiritually) by what is perceived (accurately I think) as the Church's hypocrisy regarding sexual sin.



chicacanella said:


> *Hi Nicole,*
> 
> *it took me some time to come back because I was waiting on The Holy Spirit's guidance and affirmation of my answer and this is what I received. I took it to the Lord in prayer with tongues and The Holy Spirit has affirmed these scriptures. I would only ask that you all go into deep prayer also. My response is in purple.*
> 
> ...


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## Shimmie (Jun 5, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> Why would God put homosexuals in a separate group from the rest of us? *We as the church have such grace and understanding for people having sex in the church when they "slip up,"  people getting divorced left and right, cheating, drinking too much on Saturday night...yeah, we say it's wrong, might even preach against it, but we're not questioning anyone's salvation over it. And everyone else can sin and repent and be forgiven, but not gay people...the church acts like if they still struggle with their sin that theirs is unforgivable.*
> 
> Usually I find myself on the other side of this argument, but I just know too many people seriously offended (and hindered spiritually) by what is perceived (accurately I think) as the Church's hypocrisy regarding sexual sin.


This isn't true. Long before the 'gay' issue was so freely discussed among Christians, the sexual sins and exploits of hetersexuals in the Church have never been excused.   The most recent which can be identified with that the majority of 'us' know of are Jamal Bryant and Zachary Tims.   

I personally never excused what they did and never will I excuse and I know one of them and his wife quite personally.  We 'grew' up in the same Church together, ministered together for years and was very much a part of his ordination when he and his wife were sent out to establish their own Church.   As much as I love him as my brother in Christ and as a personal friend, no excuses neither cover-ups coming from me and the majority of the Church world nationwide.  

What I 'am' noticing about the Church is that the spirit of homosexuality has infiltrated the minds of Chrisitans where 'acceptance' has gone beyond, ministry and compassion, but into the realm of acceptance of 'allowing them' to stay that way.   

No one said that it's is not a 'struggle'.  As with all sin, it is of the flesh and the flesh does wrestle with one when deliverance is taking place.  

We have to be very, very careful of where our defense lies.  

I'll never forget what my son told me when he was celebrating his first year of being drug free.  My sister and her husband introduced my son to drugs when he was only 14 years old (marijuana) and it lead to other drugs.   I fought like hell and no one else for my son's deliverance and God did just that, He completely delivered my son from his addictions.  

YET... my son told me something that I will never, EVER forget.  He said that even though it was my sister and her husband who had given him the drugs, he said that 'I' ... 'me' his mother, who fought, fasted and prayed, and never gave up on him.... my son said that he could not live with me during his recovery, because I was his biggest 'Enabler'.    In shock and in tears, I asked him 'How'?  How could I have been his biggest 'Enabler' when it was my love and prayers that I gave him instead of drugs.  

He told me that in addition to the love and prayers, that I was 'too nice'.  

My God!!!!  My son told me, that I was just 'too nice' and that I was only making him weaker and not taking full responsibility for his weaknesses and not allowing him to hit the bottom so that God could raise him back up.

You see, I thought that everyone was being too cruel and too hard on my son.  He was my baby and he always will be.  He stands almost a foot over me in height and yet he is still my baby and during the early stages of his recovery, I was 'mothering' him and seeing him as helpless and misunderstood, and that the treatment for his recovery was just too harsh.    I was his hindrance to his deliverance and to his recovery.  

Nicole, no one is being too hard on gays by expecting them to be delivered.   No one is being too hard on gays by expecting them to take control over their thought lives and temptations.   There are folks every single day who struggle and the struggle is always in the battlefield which is in their minds.   No one said that gays would not or could not have thoughts, but it has been made clear that they cannot allow the thoughts to take rule over them.   For unless they learn to take control, then they will become controlled.   

God says that we are above only and not beneath, we are the head and not the tail.   We were not designed to be conquerored but instead to be more than Conqueror's through Jesus Christ who loves us.  

Right now, gays have too much in the media fueling and defending every ideation to remain, give yield to, to keep and to induce thoughts of homosexuality.   These "thoughts" are being fed into young school aged children despite the objections of parents Christian and non Chrisitian.

http://www.truetolerance.org/

The 'thought' process is dangerous to the point where it IS sin, because there is too much sodder for it to take root and acted upon by a gay person of any thought pattern.   

We can't afford to 'enable' this to manifest any further.  It's just that serious.  

Let me be clear, that in no way this suggests hate crimes, rejection, disrespect, torment or harrassment of gays.   But we cannot afford to lose another man or woman to this horrid lifestyle.  It's spreading like wildfire and it's up to the Church to put out the blaze by setting and standing back and allowing them to free.  There are thousands upon thousands of gays who are no longer gays and no longer have a struggle with it.  Their thoughts are at rest.  

There are Ministries out there who know how to do this and are successful in doing so.  Instead of blasting the Church, let these Ministries do their perfect work and allow God to do the rest.


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## aribell (Jun 5, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> There are Ministries out there who know how to do this and are successful in doing so. Instead of blasting the Church, let these Ministries do their perfect work and allow God to do the rest.


 
I didn't say, nor did I mean to imply that churches were doing anything wrong in ministering to the homosexual community.  I have always wholeheartedly supported those efforts.  But, I do think that we emphasize homosexuality in a different way from heterosexual sins, and that was the point that I made.  

The difference in perspective could be coming from working in different parts of the Christian community.  And _you,_ Shimmie, might have the perfect perspective in this regard, but my comments weren't directed at you.  We all have to take responsibility for how the church on the whole is dealing with this issue.

Ever since I've had a choice in the matter, I have spent nearly all my free time ministering within the church and to those outside of it.  My comments, just like the ones oriented mainly toward criticism of the homosexual agenda, which I also said was of great concern to me, are for the benefit of Christians and Christian ministry.

The issues I identified were not with teaching that homosexuality is wrong, or with ministering to the homosexual community.  But, we can be wrong in how we emphasize different things.  And that makes a big difference.  It's not wrong to preach against things God says are wrong, or to help people get out of their sin.  

At the same time, I found it very odd that there could be an interpretation of that passage from I Corinthians that basically says that a man who simply "feels" attracted to the same sex and continues to reject those feelings and live a chaste life will not be saved when I've never heard anyone imply that a Christian man struggling with a pornography addiction will not enter the Kingdom, or a woman who divorced her husband for unbiblical reasons and has not reconciled (considered adulterous).  _Yes, we name these things as sins_, but homosexuality--not even the acts--is treated as that which leaves one in danger of losing their salvation.  That is not right.  We should preach against all of those things, but we need to give equal weight.  

And I'd just reaffirm the point that I do think that it is unbiblical (as indicated in the Greek from the ICor. passage) to teach individual gays that if they still feel attracted to the same sex that they will not be saved.  It's not a question of being hard on anyone, nor a question of being too nice or mean or anything having to do with making people feel any particular way; it's about being clear about what the Bible does and does not preach against.  The assumption that someone being "gay" is simply a matter of taking control of their "thought life" I think is wrong at least for _some_ gay people, and it's many of _those_ people that Christian ministries are having a difficult time reaching.  



			
				Shimmie said:
			
		

> This isn't true. Long before the 'gay' issue was so freely discussed among Christians, the sexual sins and exploits of hetersexuals in the Church have never been excused. The most recent which can be identified with that the majority of 'us' know of are Jamal Bryant and Zachary Tims.




I'm sorry, but heterosexual sins are being excused all the time _in the church on the whole_.  The sins of Christian ministers are scandalous and receive the condemnation of everyone, even people who don't care anything about Christian morality.  I'm talking about regular church folk.  Somehow the Christian church can unite against homosexuality, but it hasn't united against unbiblical divorces, which God says are adulterous.  Only 3% of individuals in our society are actually gay (10% if you believe the liberal stats), but 40% of Christian evangelical couples that are getting divorced.  It is this kind of discrepancy that is hindering us and hindering our message.  Not that we should stop teaching against homosexuality, but to allow the imbalance to continue is going to continue to weaken our ability to do that work, so it is relevant.

But the comment that we are "allowing" gays to "stay that way" is curious to me, because if someone is not engaging in homosexual _behavior_, what about that person is identifying them as gay?  If I were in a church with a lot of self-identified homosexual people, I would have to assume that they were still living that life, still indulging in the attraction, otherwise how would I or anyone else outside of their close circle (except for rumor and suspicion) know the inner struggles of their heart?  I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing.


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## Farida (Jun 5, 2009)

nicola.kirwan I agree with a lot of your posts on this issue. I think there is a difference between being attracted to someone and harboring lustful ideas about them. That is where it crosses into sin. For the most part we cannot control how we feel, or what thoughts enter our mind, but we can choose not to act on these thoughts/feelings and not to entertain those thoughts.

If I start to think about something wrong, which is instinct more than it is willful choice, I try and divert my attention to something else. When I talk to couples who are attracted to other people, I never buy the "it just happened excuse" you may have thought at one point, this man, this woman is attractive, which is natural, but you entertain and expand the thought consciously by guiding it.

I think for homosexuals, the verses I have read say "homosexual offenders" "practice homosexuality" or "men who lie with men." It seems really directed towards the act rather than the state of being.

I look at it the same way you look at a heterosexual man. Let's say it is not in God's plan for this man to marry. He will be attracted to women, he will be tempted to and may lust over them, but he must discipline himself not to entertain lustful thoughts, and not to act on these thoughts. The same applies to homosexuals. They must try not to entertain or act on thoughts and feelings.

I do agree though that the church today, not God, not Jesus, tends to place certain sins on a pedestal. Abortion, homosexuality are the current popular ones. There is this air of these people being worse than the rest of us. It is clearly not in keeping with God's teachings.


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## Shimmie (Jun 5, 2009)

nicola.kirwan said:


> I didn't say, nor did I mean to imply that churches were doing anything wrong in ministering to the homosexual community. I have always wholeheartedly supported those efforts. But, I do think that we emphasize homosexuality in a different way from heterosexual sins, and that was the point that I made.
> 
> The difference in perspective could be coming from working in different parts of the Christian community. And _you,_ Shimmie, might have the perfect perspective in this regard, but my comments weren't directed at you. We all have to take responsibility for how the church on the whole is dealing with this issue.
> 
> ...


Who is excusing heterosexual sin?   I'm not.   And I'm not alone.   

No one in the Church _with the mind of Christ_ is excusing the sexual sins of heterosexuals over those of homosexuals.  

Granted there are 'fools' who follow fools, (those who are followers of the man and not God)  however, the Church as a 'Whole' does not condone sexual sin from anyone, be they straight or gay.   

As for gays, the 2% of _'innocent' _folks being 'picked on'.   It's these same 'innocent' 2% 'ers, who are coming into our schools with their 2% foolishness teaching children how to have gay sex and influencing and poisoning their innocent minds that it's okay to do so.  

OH! And this 2% calls it 'Tolerance'.     Yet, this 2% will not 'allow' anyone to dispute or disban neither disarm these horrid teachings in order to protect these children.  

There's too much PC going on with the fear of offending or hurting the gay community.   The Church had better stand up to gays 2% or not.  Already in other countries, (Canada, Sweden) Churches have lost their Biblical rights against the gay minority which has become law in their lands.  So yes, 2% or less, the Church needs to deal with this gay issue, for a little leaven, leavens the whole lump.  All it takes is one worm in the apple to ruin the entire bunch.


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## Nice & Wavy (Jun 5, 2009)

I heard this quote recently:

"Because of all the immoral things that are taking place in America, if we don't get our act together and stop all of this, God will judge America sooner than we think.  If He doesn't judge America for this....He will have to apologize to Sodom & Gomorrah!"

We know God is not a man that He should lie...He will do what He says He will do.

God, help us all


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## Shimmie (Jun 5, 2009)

Nice & Wavy said:


> I heard this quote recently:
> 
> "Because of all the immoral things that are taking place in America, if we don't get our act together and stop all of this, God will judge America sooner than we think. If He doesn't judge America for this....He will have to apologize to Sodom & Gomorrah!"
> 
> ...


Amen Sis.    

And as always, He will protect His 'own'.  

What folks are not seeing is what God's love for Abraham is set in place as grace; therefore it is folly for those who think the gay agenda is not a threat to our well being.

Sis, you know this story well.   When God was about to destroy Sodom and Gormorrah, Abraham pleaded with Him to have mercy, for his cousin Lot lived there.    Abraham humbly pleaded with God:  

_"Wilt thou also destroy the  the righteous with the wicked?"_ 

(This is POWERFUL!!!)   

_23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? _

_24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? _

_25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? _

_26 And the LORD said, If I find in *SODOM* fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes. _

_27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD, which am but dust and ashes: _

_28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it._
_ 
29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake. _

_30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there. _

_31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake. _

_32 And he said, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake. _

_33 And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place. _

_--- (Genesis 18:23-33)_

Were it not for the 'Saints' here in the earth, this country would be long gone.    We hear and read so much 'condecending' remarks such as, 

_Tthe state of so/so legalized gay marriage and they haven't fallen from the face of the earth."  _

  Father forgive them, for they know not what they say...

So far this country has 6 states who have fallen from grace with the legalization of gay marriage.   I see the number 9 and then a decline of mercy, but not on God's people.    But it will be for those who oppose God's order of marriage and have mocked Him with their defiance of it.   I see many judges falling from grace for they have not proven worthy of the call to God's order.  

In the same manner that King Saul was fallen from his throne, so shall these judges in the Supreme Courts who have committed tyranny against the order of God and the sanctity of marriage.   For you see, not only have they defied the votes of 'the people' who voted against gay marriage, but they have also defied God's vote against it.   Those who opposed gay marriage were / are voting God's order and doing so in obedience to God.   Hence these judges must and will fall.  For they are wrong and being rebellious and have overruled the people of righteousness. 

I see the number 9, before the decline of such grace in each place where honor has fallen.   Civil rights are not about sexual deviation; it's about the order of humanity in order of God's creation.  'They' (meaning the gay agenda and it's supporters and promoters and enforcers) have gone too far and it's coming to an end. .. an 'utter end' .   (Nahum 1:9)


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## Nice & Wavy (Jun 5, 2009)

Shimmie said:


> Amen Sis.
> 
> And as always, He will protect His 'own'.
> 
> ...


An utter end is right....


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## prettynatural (Jun 9, 2009)

This is an interesting thread. 

To answer the question, I have faith that God can remove it but that don't mean that I would marry it because I don't trust it. I'm keeping it real. I have issues with homosexuality, I have a extreme dislike and I have  fear that my husband would be on the dl and that scares me(not married just saying). As a therapist, I could not treat or see anyone that is homosexual, I would have to refer that person on because of my personal issues and I would not be able to be completely accepting nor being objective. 

 But this is where I have issues/or differ with people on this issue. With my personal issues and dislike of homosexuality I feel that we should give the same amount of fervor and energy that we put in "Gay agenda" into the fornication agenda, the out of wedlock children having agenda,  adultry agenda, stealing and robbing and killing agenda.  

I believe that sin is sin but the same fervor is not seen in cases of adultry and other sins because I think it hits to close to home for most christians and it is easier to attack something that they would not ever do. At my church they have "ascend" ministry to help members struggling with homosexuality and it is very exclusive and discreet. If they will have a ministry to change people out of homosexuality then why is there not the same amount of energy going into the Fornication ministry, adultry ministry, robbing killing, stealing ministry?  Although I have my problems with homosexuality or really bisexuality I still don't think that people are treated nor viewed fairly between those sins and it is evident in this thread.


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